IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( OCTOBER 22, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 23 OF 37

______________________________________________________________

STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

LARA BURNS

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 6

Cross By MR. WESTFALL........................................... 157

JOHN ROBERT McBRIEN

Direct By MS. SHAPIRO........................................... 62

Cross By MR. CLINE.............................................. 88

Redirect By MS. SHAPIRO......................................... 140

Recross By MR. CLINE............................................ 151

Redirect By MS. SHAPIRO......................................... 152

Government's Exhibits

Government's Exhibits Page

Demonstrative No. 32 Admitted into Evidence 54

OFAC No. 1 68

OFAC No. 3 74

OFAC No. 5 84

InfoCom Search No. 55 86

OFAC No. 4 108

Defendants' Exhibits

Defendants' Exhibits Page

No. 1402 112

No. 1403 113

No. 1404 210

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THE COURT: Let me ask counsel to come up here for a 

minute to approach the bench on the objections to Mr. 

McBrien's testimony. That is what I want to discuss up here. 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MR. CLINE: I think, Your Honor, one of the issues 

has been resolved. I think they are going to redact the HLF 

designation. We will want to talk about the redaction and 

make sure it is not obvious what is taken out.

MS. SHAPIRO: I just intend to display the size of 

the document, not go through, it and I instructed our people 

to redact it from the original exhibit.

MR. CLINE: That is fine. 

The only other issue I believe, Your Honor, is whether 

the regulation actually gets introduced into evidence. We 

object. It is like introducing a statute or something. It is 

something for Your Honor to instruct on.

MS. SHAPIRO: These are Treasury Department 

regulations that go to the issue of whether an entity needs to 

be on a designation list or whether it is sufficient that it 

is acting on behalf of the designated entity, and it is an 

important issue because one of the primary defenses in this 

case is that these charities didn't appear on the designation 

list and, therefore, it is okay to give to them. And we did 

emphasize the point that that is not true.

THE COURT: So you are going to limit the rest of 

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that issue? 

MS. SHAPIRO: Yes; just to one subsection of a reg.

MR. CLINE: Which reg? We have a packet of them. 

MS. SHAPIRO: I don't have the number off hand. It 

is the one that specifically goes to charitable organizations. 

MR. CLINE: I think it is 595.408. I think I know 

which one. We object. It is something that was in the jury 

instruction lasts time. We think that is the appropriate way 

to handle it.

THE COURT: I think you can go into that. I will 

overrule that objection. That has been an issue in the case. 

That covers the objections to these exhibits? 

MR. CLINE: Yes.

THE COURT: I am still working on your 

objections -- your objections to I guess Mr. Jonas' objections 

to the exhibits you are introducing. I am still working my 

way through those. Hopefully after the lunch hour I will have 

the ruling on those for you. 

And the 302s, I am still looking through those. I don't 

think you are going to be entitled to the 302s, but I am still 

working through those.

MR. CLINE: These are the Hamami 302s.

THE COURT: Yes. But I am still looking at that. 

And I had to set them aside for other things, but I will get 

back and pick them up before the lunch hour and give you a 

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ruling after the lunch hour, after we get back to Agent Burns. 

(The following was had in open court.) 

THE COURT: Is the jury all here? Go ahead and 

bring in the jury. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed. 

Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when we broke yesterday we 

were listening to a phone call between Ghassan Elashi and 

Shukri Abu Baker. It was marked Baker Wiretap No. 11. Do you 

remember that?

A. I do.

Q. We are going to continue playing that phone call. 

MR. JONAS: If we can take up where we left off on 

Baker Wiretap No. 11.

(Whereupon, Baker Wiretap No. 11 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I want to move on to a new 

subject matter with regard to where some of the money over in 

the West Bank and Gaza may have been used for, based on the 

records that are in evidence and what the Defendants discussed 

them. 

A. Okay.

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Q. Specifically, did you come across through the search 

warrant material any videotapes of any Hamas leader discussing 

the use of money for Hamas?

A. From one of the search warrants I did.

Q. Okay. Is that an Elbarasse videotape?

A. That is correct.

Q. What I mean by Elbarasse videotape, I mean seized from 

Elbarasse's home. 

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Elbarasse Search No. 33, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And before we start this one, do you 

recall who is doing the speaking in this tape?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. Hamas leader Khalid Mishal.

(Whereupon, Elbarasse Search No. 33 was played, 

while questions were propounded.)

MS. CADEDDU: Can we have a date for this video? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you know when this video 

was recorded?

A. It was not dated. It was seized in 2004. Based on the 

content, I believe it was likely after the second Intifada.

MS. HOLLANDER: I object to speculation. 

THE COURT: Overruled. Based on the content, she 

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may answer.

THE WITNESS: It was likely after the beginning of 

the second Intifada after 2000, but I can't state for sure 

because the tape was not dated. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, did you see where Khalid 

Mishal was talking about supporting the children and martyrs 

and prisoners?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this also discussed in the Philadelphia meeting?

A. It was.

MR. JONAS: If we can play Philadelphia Meeting 

No. 11, Clip B.

(Whereupon, Philly Meeting No. 11, Clip B was 

played, while questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, were there other discussions 

about supporting families of prisoners and martyrs in the 

Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. And if you recall, yesterday near the end of your 

testimony I asked you about during the Philadelphia meeting if 

there were discussions about providing cover for the 

societies, their societies over in the West Bank and Gaza. Do 

you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. Was there further conversation regarding that as well?

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put on the screen Philadelphia 

Meeting No. 12-E, page 3, just the transcript, please. 

Enlarge the bottom half. 

THE WITNESS: Can we go to the first page just to 

see who the speaker is? 

MR. JONAS: Go back to page 1 to see who AK is. 

THE WITNESS: It is Akram Kharoubi.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. And did you testify about Akram 

Kharoubi yesterday?

A. He ultimately became the HLF's representative in 

Ramallah.

Q. Okay. Who is SH that is right above Akram Kharoubi? 

A. The Defendant Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. Okay. Can you read what Akram Kharoubi says in this 

portion of the Philadelphia meeting?

A. Yes. It says, "There is an inclination to stay away from 

the political address in the charitable organization's name. 

Also there is a direction towards all forms of address. They 

are already in place now. But we now have a larger scope for 

the Americans--to address all people in regards to the things 

they are interested in. For instance, addressing Muslims now 

about the issue of Jerusalem, the issue of protecting the 

Islamic organizations in Palestine, the issue of maintaining 

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the steadfastness of Muslims in Palestine and Jerusalem, for 

example. Also issues relating to jihad which will continue, 

such as supporting the injured, the martyrs, and prisoners. I 

mean their families. These are directions for Muslims. As 

for the American society, opening the door to the American 

society through participating with them in building the 

infrastructure of Palestine to have our charitable 

organizations become a front for that kind of work. And there 

is more acceptance by the Americans now for this kind of work. 

Encouraging investors, attempting to get governmental support 

if possible for some projects. It is possible to form some 

economic committees which benefit from the changing situation. 

Securing protection for the Islamic organizations in 

Palestine, and it can be done in America through fraternity, 

for instance, through registering some of the charitable 

organizations in Palestine under the names of people living 

abroad in order to make it hard to hit them in the inside and 

closing them."

Q. Agent Burns, did you come across any documentation during 

any of the search warrants regarding supporting prisoners' and 

martyrs' families?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can put Ashqar Search No. 5, page 

22 on the screen, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, remind us again what this 

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document is. 

A. This was the document taken from Abdel Haleem Ashqar's 

home that discusses Hamas, and it was from 1988, 1989, and 

listed the committees during that time and the amount of 

control they had over those committees.

Q. Where in this document does it talk about supporting 

prisoners? 

A. I believe it is on this page.

Q. Would it be the top half?

A. Yes. Under our goals in that field, if you look at 

No. 3, it says, "Providing for families of martyrs or the 

detainees and their families."

Q. And who are the detainees again?

A. The prisoners.

Q. If we -- Was there also documentation that also addressed 

this issue?

A. Yes.

Q. That was seized during the course of the investigation?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to Ashqar Search No. 2, 

page 10, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does this document address the issue?

A. It is not on the screen yet. 

Q. All right. 

A. Mr. Jonas, I think it may be Ashqar No. 6, if you will 

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give me a second.

Q. All right. I may have written the wrong number down. 

A. Let me check.

Q. Sure. 

A. No, and I don't have Ashqar No. 2 here.

Q. Agent Burns, it is Ashqar No. 2, and I have a copy that I 

can put on the elmo.

A. Okay.

Q. This is page 10 of Ashqar No. 2, Agent Burns. And let me 

just show you what the top of the page says. It says the 

north region? 

A. It does.

Q. What areas -- According to this document, what areas 

cover the north region?

A. The cities of Nablus, Jenin, and Tulkarem.

Q. Is that the West Bank or Gaza?

A. That is in the West Bank. 

Q. Can you remind us what this document is?

A. If we can go to the first page so I can --

Q. I assume you want the first page of the English. 

A. Please.

MR. JONAS: And for the record, that is page 7 of 

the exhibit. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. This is the document that we 

talked about that was a report of someone from the Palestine 

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Committee taking a trip to the territories in 1991, and they 

were reporting on, as you can see there in the first 

paragraph, the Hamas movement.

Q. Okay. Let's go back to page 10, north region. Let me 

show you -- Do you see there are a series of items listed by 

letter?

A. I do.

Q. Can you read what it says for K?

A. Yes. It says, "The situation of the brothers in jails is 

good and they are in the best of conditions."

Q. Can you also read I?

A. "There are brothers who are fugitives in the region, and 

the brothers feel they should be linked to the outside as the 

region needs those brothers in order to protect the 

organization."

Q. Okay. Any other documents that you came across during 

this search warrant that discusses support for prisoners and 

martyrs?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up on the screen 

Elbarasse Search No. 18, page 13, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And Agent Burns, remind us what this 

document is?

A. This is the fax from the Islamic Relief Committee from 

1992 that we talked about yesterday wherein they request money 

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for weapons, and then it also discusses several other issues 

like the Islamic Society and Islamic Center of Gaza. That is 

why we brought it up yesterday, because it related to the 

committees.

Q. With regard to the support of prisoners and martyrs, what 

does this document say?

A. In this document it discusses the need for money, and it 

says that the delivery channels are open, and it lists 

delivery channels. One of the delivery channels, and I 

believe it was on page -- I believe it was on page --

Q. The next page, 14?

A. Yes. If you see here, it says, "Examining the delivery 

channels, placing each channel in its main purpose without 

using its funds for other channel means." No. 1 is "The 

detainees and the needs of their families. Their funds are to 

be in a specific channel and distributed throughout the 

Strip."

Q. Did you come across evidence taken from the HLF that 

shows that the HLF supported prisoners?

A. Yes.

Q. Did they support prisoners of Hamas leaders?

A. They did, through the Islamic Relief Committee, whom that 

fax was from.

Q. Did they only support prisoners?

A. No, no.

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Q. Did they only support prisoners of Hamas leaders?

A. No.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up InfoCom Search No. 3, 

page 186, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, what is InfoCom Search 

No. 3?

A. This is a project, an HLF project to the needy families 

that we discussed earlier.

Q. Can you remind us what you discussed about it?

A. Yes. If you could go back to the first page. This is 

one of the $100,000 projects that the HLF funded through the 

Islamic Relief Committee after it received the $100,000 from 

Mousa Abu Marzook. There were approximately 100 needy family 

applications attached. A majority of those families were 

families of prisoners. We talked about this because I 

couldn't get the figures to add up to $100,000, which is what 

was ultimately sent.

Q. First, did you testify about this because of the relation 

in time between the Marzook money and this money going out, as 

well as some of the letters involving the Islamic Relief 

Committee?

A. Yes. All of this happened in the same like month, month 

and a half period. The letter from the Islamic Relief 

Committee that we just saw, the other letter that we saw in my 

first testimony requesting weapons, $100,000, these projects, 

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the phone calls from Marzook, they all happened together and 

we actually had that little PowerPoint summary that had the 

timeline on it.

Q. Okay. Was a month and a half period or was it more like 

a week period?

A. The first letter we looked at was from July 20th, and the 

second letter -- The first wire transfer we saw was from 

August 1st and then August 10th. And I believe the fax was 

from August 12th, so less than a month.

Q. Okay. Now, you testified before that this was a $100,000 

project, but you only were able to account for $20,000 based 

upon the supporting documentation. 

A. I wouldn't say that I accounted for $20,000. I just -- 

Every which way I added it up, I couldn't come up with a way 

that it would have been more than $20,000.

Q. Of the $20,000 that was spent, according to this 

documentation, did they support any leaders, Hamas leaders 

while they were in prison?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. 

MR. JONAS: And if we can turn to page 186, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Does this page indicate someone who was 

supported by the HLF?

A. It does.

Q. Let me be clear about something. Do you know for sure 

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that this money actually went to support families of martyrs 

and prisoners?

A. I know what the documents say.

Q. And whose document is this?

A. This is the HLF documents, the Islamic Relief Committee 

documents.

Q. So based upon what the document says, which Hamas leader 

was supported in this project?

A. This would be the wife of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed 

Yassin.

Q. The spiritual leader of Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. On the Demonstrative No. 17 at the top of the chart?

A. Yes. At the time of this aid, Yassin was in prison.

Q. What was the time period of this?

A. This was 1990, 1991. 

Q. Is there any other Hamas member you discussed who is 

supported in this project?

A. I believe so.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 227, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is being supported in this project?

A. This is Khalil Al-Kuka, the Hamas leader that we 

discussed in one of those books yesterday that was found at 

the Holy Land Foundation identified him as a Hamas header, and 

also he was identified as a member of the Islamic Society of 

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Gaza.

Q. So is he on your schedule, your summary schedule for the 

Islamic Society of Gaza?

A. He is.

Q. Were there other project binders, prisoner project 

binders similar to this one that you found?

A. Yes, that the HLF funded through the Islamic Relief 

Committee.

Q. Okay. Were there other project binders involving 

projects not involving the Islamic Relief Committee?

A. Yes. Excuse me. I don't know about binders. There were 

other documents, but these were actual binders.

Q. Excuse me. I shouldn't use binders. Documents. 

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to InfoCom Search No. 45. 

Just go to the first page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this?

A. This is another project that the HLF, according to this 

document, funded through the Islamic Relief Committee in March 

of 1992 for $25,000, and it says aid to 25 families.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 19. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is being supported, according to this 

document?

A. This is -- If we can look at the Arabic just before this 

just so I can explain a little bit. You can scroll to the 

next page. I was looking for the security certificate, which 

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is likely on the next page. This is Mohammed Salman, Mohammed 

Baroud.

Q. Have we seen his name before?

A. Yes; as affiliated with the Islamic Society of Gaza.

Q. Is he on your Islamic Society of Gaza schedule?

A. He is.

MR. JONAS: And if we can go to page 21 of this 

document. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document? 

A. This is just another document that was contained within 

that project advising Mr. Baroud that he had been fired.

Q. Fired from where?

A. It says Gaza Strip Civil Administration.

Q. Is that the Islamic Society of Gaza committee that you 

were talking about?

A. No.

Q. It is a separate organization?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Let's go to InfoCom Search No. 46, page 

34, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, do you know what this is?

A. I do.

Q. What is this document?

A. This is another one of those certificates showing that 

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this individual had been arrested. I am looking for where it 

says.

Q. Read the next page with the translation. 

A. I was just looking at this first to see where it said the 

reason for arrest. You can go to the next page. Anyway, it 

was Ismail Abu Shanab.

Q. Do you recognize that name?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you testified about him already?

A. I believe so.

Q. Who is he?

A. I am not sure that we have addressed Ismail Abu Shanab 

yet.

Q. Do you know who he is?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was he?

A. He was a Hamas leader before he was assassinated.

Q. Let's do one more. 

MR. JONAS: InfoCom Search No. 48. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this document?

A. This is another project similar to those that we have 

been discussing that the HLF funded through the Islamic Relief 

Committee. Accord to this document, 100 needy families in the 

West Bank and Gaza received $100,000. And again, a majority 

of these families were families of prisoners, according to the 

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attached documentation.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to page 228 of this. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this?

A. This is a request for aid for Amal Mohamed Hania. And I 

believe the security certificate is on the next page. Yes. 

For her husband Ismail Hania, who was detained for security 

reasons.

Q. Who is Ismail Haniya?

A. He is a major Hamas leader and he is on your chart. We 

also saw him in the deportees tape chanting, and also is a 

member of the Islamic Society of Gaza.

Q. Holding up Demonstrative No. 17, where is Ismail Haniya?

A. He is second from me on the bottom row.

Q. You say we saw him on the deportee tape yesterday?

A. One of them.

Q. Not the tent video?

A. No.

Q. The other one where they were chanting?

A. Where they were chanting.

Q. Okay. Is this just to -- Are these all the Hamas members 

or leaders that the HLF supported while they were in prison?

A. No.

Q. Just a representative sample?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Did you come across any other documentation, not 

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like this, but other documentation indicating that they 

supported other Hamas leaders?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up InfoCom Search No. 39, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you know what this document is?

A. I do.

Q. Is it translated?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: Next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does the translation say?

A. It says, "Statement. I, the wife of Dr. Abdel Aziz Al 

Rantissi, state that I received the sum of 10800 shekels, or 

what is the equivalent to $4,000 U.S. Dollars. This is a 

statement from me with that." And she signs her name.

Q. And who is Abdel Aziz Rantisi?

A. The Hamas leader that is on your demonstrative exhibit.

Q. Did we see him in any of those deportee tapes?

A. Yes, we did. He was on the tent videotape.

Q. Was there any documentation or phone calls intercepted by 

the FBI where any of the Defendants discuss support for 

martyrs and prisoners?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play HLF Wiretap No. 3, audio 

3-A, please.

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(Whereupon, HLF Wiretap No. 3-A was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you know who is speaking?

A. Yes. This is HLF officer Akram Mishal.

Q. Do you know who he is speaking with?

A. A social worker for the HLF. I believe Mirvat. I can't 

recall her last name, but it is one of the social workers for 

the HLF.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, do you know when that call took 

place?

A. I was going to ask you if we could look at the first 

page.

MR. JONAS: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Let me show you HLF Wiretap No. 3, the 

first page. Give me the date. 

A. This was May 14th, 2001, and they were referring to the 

second Intifada, which began in October of 2000.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to InfoCom Search No. 96. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document, Agent Burns?

A. This is a letter from the Holy Land Foundation to Mr. 

Shaheer Assad dated July 8, 1993.

Q. Okay. Was it translated?

A. It was.

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MR. JONAS: The next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who wrote the letter?

A. Shukri Abu Baker.

Q. If you can read the letter, please?

A. All of it? 

Q. Go ahead, yes. 

A. "I Thank you for your kind letter dated February 1993 

which contains a request for inquiry about the family of the 

deceased Subhi Salim 'Ardah, and I do apologize to you for 

replying late because, first, I was on a trip, and then 

because I was waiting for a response from the director of our 

office in Jerusalem regarding this case.

"Today I have received a report from the Jenin zakat 

committee about the condition of the family of the deceased. 

In it it was mentioned that the number of the family members 

is four children, the eldest of whom is 12 years old, in 

addition to their mother Ms. Fatima Fu'ad Sadiq. 

"It was mentioned in the report that the family is in 

fact poor and doesn't have any source of income except some 

assistance from the Jenin zakat. 

"The truth is that although the Foundation supports the 

poor families, its effort is focused now on the relief of the 

afflicted families in Gaza and the families of the deported, 

the detainees, and the martyrs. There are some families that 

the Foundation supports, but it is within the Poor Family 

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Sponsorship Program, as their assistance does not come from 

the general account, but comes to us from sponsors and 

philanthropists to benefit certain families. 

"Therefore, the Foundation is fully ready to cooperate 

with you if you want to help this family by receiving any 

amount you, or someone you know among the people of good 

deeds, can transfer. 

"The Foundation cannot every household in America [sic], 

and it relies on the people of zeal and charity like you to 

spread its humanitarian message. Hopefully this case will 

constitute the beginning toward a joint humanitarian action."

Q. Were there other letters where someone from the HLF talks 

about focusing their aid primarily on martyr, deportees, or 

detainees?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up InfoCom Search No. 97, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this?

A. This is a letter from the Holy Land Foundation.

MR. JONAS: Next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is this letter from?

A. HLF officer Haitham Maghawri.

Q. Who is it addressed to?

A. Respectable brother Majed.

Q. Okay. Can you read the body of this letter, please?

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A. "God's peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you. 

"My honorable brother, please nominate some names from 

the children of the martyrs and write a synopsis about the 

condition of each child, his level of cooperation, and 

expression, in case there is a simple dialogue in front of the 

audience. As for the festivals, they start the last week of 

September and continue until the end of November, so please 

take that into consideration.

"On the other hand, the sum of $5,000 has been 

transferred to your account from Darul Quran daycare in Deir 

Dibwan on Monday October 8, 1992. Please hand it over to the 

people overseeing this daycare, who are Mohamed Awad El 

Jimzawi, Mohamed Dawoud Ghanam, and Ali El Khatib. The 

nearest phone to them is 957444. Please send a receipt for 

this amount of money. May God reward you good."

Q. Any other letters?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to InfoCom Search No. 98. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this?

A. This is a letter from the HLF's eastern office.

Q. What is the HLF eastern office?

A. The New Jersey office.

MR. JONAS: If we can get to the next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is this from?

A. This is from the Defendant Abdulrahman Odeh.

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Q. Who is it addressed to?

A. Ibrahim Elsamneh, an officer at the HLF.

Q. And what does this letter say?

A. "Greetings. I send to you sponsorships for two orphans 

and sponsorship for a family of a martyr. Please do the 

necessary on behalf of the New Jersey office and send receipts 

to the donors and to our office as well. Your brother Abdel 

Rahman Odeh."

Q. Any other letters from Odeh where he discusses support 

for martyrs?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to HLF Search No. 186, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Before we do that, what is the date of 

this letter?

A. February 29th, 1996.

Q. Okay. Is this before or after Hamas is first designated?

A. After.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to HLF Search No. 186, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document, Agent Burns?

A. It is on HLF letterhead. I would need to see the 

English.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the next page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this?

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A. It is a letter to an officer at the HLF regarding money 

that is to be distributed by Akram Kharoubi.

Q. Is there anything in this letter about support for 

martyrs?

A. Yes. I believe a little bit later on in the letter.

MR. JONAS: If we can go forward, please. The next 

page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that it? Okay. All right. This may 

not be the letter I am thinking of. 

A. I was thinking there was more to this. I thought this 

was a several-page document.

Q. We can move on. The last letter, though, that we did 

see, InfoCom Search No. 98, was from whom again?

A. That was from the Defendant Abdulrahman Odeh.

Q. Okay. Did you come across any evidence showing Odeh 

himself supported a martyr?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can look at InfoCom Search 

No. 179. 

THE WITNESS: And to clarify my response, the family 

of the martyr. Obviously the martyr was dead.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Right. That is what I meant. 

MR. JONAS: My mistake. If we can go to InfoCom 

Search No. 99. 

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Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this item?

A. This is a letter from the HLF's eastern office.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the next page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does it say?

A. It is from the Defendant Abdulrahman Odeh to again 

Ibrahim Elsamneh, the HLF officer, dated June 21, 1996. 

After greetings, "I send to you checks whose numbers 

appear below to be deposited for needy families. They are 

check No. 244, and particularly check No. 1906 for the Ayyash 

family for six months. Receipts are to be sent to the donors 

and to our office as well as follows."

Q. Do you know who the Ayyash family is?

A. That would be for the children of the engineer Yehia 

Ayyash, the master bombmaker who was assassinated.

Q. Was there any other documentation showing that Odeh 

himself personally supported the children?

A. One of them, one of the children.

MR. JONAS: If I can have the elmo, please. I am 

going to put ton screen HLF search 179. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who is this addressed to?

A. This is addressed to Abdulrahman Odeh from the HLF's 

headquarters. And you will note there is a number up here 

above his name, 240091.

Q. Right.

A. That is the HLF's I.D. number for Odeh. We will see that 

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a little bit later.

Q. Okay. Let me show you the second page of this document. 

Can you read that? Is it clear enough for you?

A. It says, "Thank you for your generous contribution to the 

Orphan Sponsorship Program. It is because of your support 

that we are able to reach many orphans giving them the love 

and assistance they desperately need. 

"I know that you love your sponsored child so dearly. 

Thus, I became a little worried when I learned that we have 

not received your sponsorship gift. I hope everything is fine 

with you. It's not too late. You can send your check today. 

I have enclosed a return envelope for your convenience." 

And it is signed Ibrahim Khalil, which is Ibrahim 

Elsamneh of the HLF office, the same person we saw in the 

correspondence.

Q. What does the bottom of this document identify?

A. The orphan's name, which is the child of Yehia Ayyash, 

Yehia Yehia Ayyash.

Q. Okay. Did you come across any documentation to 

show -- This letter indicates that the Defendant Odeh was not 

making a payment. 

A. Or that he was late making a payment.

Q. Did you come across any documentation showing that he was 

making payments?

A. Yes.

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MR. JONAS: If we can pull up HLF Search No. 37, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a series of financial records relating to the 

Nablus zakat committee.

Q. Okay. Is this a document that supports your Nablus zakat 

committee schedule?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 158. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this?

A. This is one of the documents that was obtained from the 

HLF that supported one of the transactions between the HLF and 

Nablus zakat. There is a list entitled orphans list, and it 

has several names on it. And if you will look about the 

middle of this list, it shows that -- That again is 

Abdulrahman Odeh's I.D. number 240091, and the orphan's name 

Yehia Yehia Ayyash, the child of the engineer. And it shows 

that in the city of Nablus that he paid $90 for that time 

period, so a two-month time period.

Q. What is that time period?

A. February 28th, 1999 through April 30th, 1999.

MR. JONAS: Let's go to page 186, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What do we see here?

A. Again we see the same thing. This is a supporting 

documentation for one of the transfers between the HLF and the 

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Nablus zakat. And it shows third from the bottom that 

Abdulrahman Odeh paid for the Yehia Yehia Ayyash through the 

Nablus through the time period August 31st, 1999 through 

November 30th, 1999, $135.

Q. Okay. And do we see this type of documentation repeated 

throughout this exhibit?

A. Yes.

Q. I am not going to make you look at every single one. 

A. Okay.

Q. Was there any material seized from the Holy Land 

Foundation where they discuss Yehia Ayyash?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to HLF Search No. 28, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is an audiotape that we discussed during my first 

testimony related to something else. It is chants, songs that 

were on this audiotape found at the HLF offices.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page two, please. And 

this tape, does it reference Yehia Ayyash at all?

A. Yes; he and several other suicide bombers.

Q. What does it say in here?

A. One of the references, and I won't try to sing it, is the 

second paragraph in the bottom, and it says, "Ayyash, the 

maker of bombs and explosives, and the inventor of the hope 

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stage realizes that he is the number one target of his enemy. 

He trusts God's fortitude in paving his pathway. He had 

stated repeatedly, 'I know that my day will come. However, I 

hope that after my death I will leave 1,000 engineers and 

1,000 Ayyashes.'".

Q. So we are clear, you said this document praises Ayyash 

and other suicide bombers. Was he a suicide bomber?

A. No. He was the bombmaker for the suicide bombers.

Q. Does this tape go on and praise him in other portions of 

the tape?

A. It does. I think there are a couple of other passages 

that we could look at.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Page 3. Look at one more. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And where in this document does it talk 

about him on this page?

A. It begins talking about his birthday at the top. If you 

look at the previous page, it says -- it talks about Ayyash at 

the top. But it says, "He has now become embroidered in the 

memory of everyone amongst us. Here is Yehia, who rises from 

the wheat kernels as another kernel. The sun blesses him with 

its light. Its rays brown his tender forehead." And it goes 

on to talk about him. It said, "Who amongst us knew him and 

did not love him? Who amongst us did not wish to be entwined 

with the color of his angry eyes." 

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And then you go farther down, I won't read everything, it 

says, "The genius who made Zionist experts in explosives stand 

aside, incapable of disarming his miracle car bomb that he had 

assembled and was discovered near the Ramat Af-al settlement 

in Tel Aviv. Those people did not have an alternative other 

than letting it explode in its place. Since that time, since 

November of 1992, Ayyash deals death at them and becomes the 

number one and most wanted person by the occupying authorities 

and their intelligence systems."

Q. It says in paren right where you said "sounds of bombs 

exploding." What does that mean?

A. Well, this is an audiotape where, again, there are 

chants, and so the translator of the tape noted when the 

sounds appeared. So they were sound effects, basically, of 

bombs exploding.

Q. Okay. Were there other documentations that you reviewed 

in the course of the evidence that talk about Ayyash?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to El Mezain Wiretap No. 1, 

page 117, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what are these documents again?

A. These are faxes that were obtained from the wiretap of 

the Defendant El Mezain's home.

Q. Okay. And does it talk about Yehia Ayyash in these 

faxes?

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A. Excuse me. I don't know if that was his home or office, 

but it was his fax machine. 

Yes. In the first paragraph you see it says, "Zionist 

security" -- Excuse me. The date is January 18th, 1995, so a 

year before his death. "Zionist security sources said that 

thousands of soldiers and elements from the security and 

intelligence forces take part in the largest manhunt campaign 

targeting the Palestinian fighter Yehia Ayyash, 28 years, who 

is considered to be the coordinator of suicide operations and 

the mastermind of the explosion of the booby-trapped vehicles 

which activists from the Hamas movement carried out against 

various Zionist targets."

Q. What is the date of this again?

A. January 18, 1995.

Q. The documents that we looked at showing that the 

Defendant Odeh supported at least one of his children, what 

was the date of those documents?

A. After this. After his death, and he died in January of 

'96.

Q. Are there other references to him contained within these 

faxes?

A. There are many references to him in these faxes from Mr. 

El Mezain's wiretap.

Q. We are not going to go through them. Do you remember 

yesterday we watched a videotape of the library, and there was 

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a Hamas demonstration at the beginning of the videotape?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see a picture of Yehia Ayyash in that videotape?

A. Yes. Just before the send of the demonstrations in the 

back of the crowd you could see someone holding a picture of 

him. It was a famous picture of Yehia Ayyash that I have seen 

a lot. He is wearing like a scarf around his neck.

Q. Is there a picture of him that has been admitted into 

evidence?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can put Tulkarem Zakat No. 3 on 

the screen. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. What is this?

A. This is a photograph a poster of Yehia Ayyash holding a 

child and an automatic weapon.

Q. Do you know where this poster was taken from, seized 

from?

A. The Tulkarem zakat committee.

Q. Where is Tulkarem?

A. In the West Bank.

Q. Agent Burns, there is one thing I skipped before when we 

were talking about HLF support for Hamas leaders in prison. 

If you recall yesterday the tent video -- 

A. Yes.

Q. There was an individual named Hassanat. 

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A. Yes.

Q. Can you remind us who he is?

A. He on that tape identified himself as a leader in the 

Islamic Society of Gaza. That is why we were looking at him. 

He also identified himself as the father of Yasser Hassanat, 

whom he also identified as a martyr for the Al-Qassam 

Brigades, the Hamas military wing.

Q. I had asked you yesterday if we were going to refer to 

that individual. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. That is what I skipped. I just want to go back to 

that. 

A. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can pull up HLF Search No. 62, 

page 10, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is another one of those orphans lists that were 

found at the HLF that were relating to wire transactions from 

the HLF through various entities. And I can't recall which 

entity offhand this one went through. I think it is the HLF 

Gaza.

Q. Okay. And how does this relate to Hassanat?

A. It identifies -- Actually this one I believe -- Hold on 

one second. I am looking -- There it is at the bottom. This 

indicates support for Tasneem Yaser Alhasanat, who would be 

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the child of Yasser Hassanat, the martyr referenced on that 

videotape. In this culture the father's name is taken as the 

middle name, or one of the many names if you see the entire 

name, four or five. But this would be one of the children of 

that Izz el-Din al-Qassam martyr, the Hamas military wing. 

And you can see the date of support on this document is May 

31st, 1998 through July 31st, 1998. And this is just one of 

his several children, and one of several of these documents.

Q. Okay. What was the date of the tent video?

A. That was from December of 1992.

Q. Okay. So they are supporting the children up through 

1998, or at least in 1998?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: And if we can go to page 28 of this 

document, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this?

A. This is the same type of list. On this one, about a 

third of the way down from the bottom you see the support for 

another one of that Izz el-Din al-Qassam martyr's children, 

Banan Yaser Alhasanat also in 1998.

Q. And are there more references to the support for these 

children, this martyr's children in this document?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Based upon the documentation that was seized by 

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the FBI, was there an indication on some of these project 

binders or orphan applications or any documentation indicating 

where some of the HLF money may have went showing that other 

people besides the HLF were supporting these children, these 

families? 

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to HLF Search No. 183, 

please. And let's go to page 13. I am going to put on the 

elmo HLF Search No. 183. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this document?

A. This is a donation form for the Holy Land Foundation.

MR. JONAS: And if we can go to the last page. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you read that?

A. "As for the economic situation, the martyr was working in 

Israel and the family relied entirely on his income. But with 

closure and siege, the family became in need for food to be 

provided to the children. Therefore, the father went out 

seeking a source of provision but he did not return, 

eliminating their last hope to have an income. The large 

number of family members increases their needs of food, 

clothes, education expenses, accumulated electricity and water 

bills. All the expenses do not have income against them. The 

family is in need of help, as the assistances which were 

provided to it did not exceed Saddam Hussein's assistance of 

$10,000. But the family did not receive the entire sum, as 

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the martyr's family, father and mother, divided the money and 

took one third of the money. Therefore, I see that the family 

need a sponsorship."

Q. Were there other indications of sponsorship and aid 

provided to these same families by Iraq?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Let me grab HLF Search No. 184. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) And what is this document?

A. This is another HLF donation form. I don't know if there 

is a date on it.

Q. Is there a picture of the child on the document as well?

A. That is correct.

MR. JONAS: If we can turn to page 11 of HLF Search 

No. 184. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you see where it says "economic 

situation"?

A. Yes.

Q. Does it indicate any money coming from someone else 

besides the HLF? 

A. Yes. It says, "The head of the household brings in 500 

shekels monthly. Intermittent assistance from relatives' 

zakat of money. The family received a check for $10,000 as an 

assistance for a family of a martyr from Iraq."

Q. Any other exhibits where money is shown coming from Iraq?

A. Yes.

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MR. JONAS: How about one more. HLF Search No. 185. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this?

A. An HLF donation form.

Q. I am not sure if I wrote the page number down for this 

one. 

Well, have you reviewed this form before testifying.

A. Yes.

Q. And is this another one of those documents that indicates 

support from Iraq?

A. I believe that it is.

Q. Do you want me to hand it to you so you can double check?

A. Please. I have looked at too many documents to remember 

specifically.

Q. Can you tell us if this is another one of those 

application forms that indicate money coming from Iraq to the 

family? 

A. Yes. It says, "The other charitable organizations that 

have assisted this family, one time assistance of $1,000 from 

al-Salah Society," the society we talked about in Gaza, 

"$2,000 from the Social Affairs, $10,000 from Iraq, and $2500 

from the Emirates. That would be the UAE.

Q. Which is what?

A. United Arab Emirates.

Q. A country?

A. A country.

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Q. Was there any indication that some of the people the HLF 

gave money to didn't need money?

A. I have seen documents indicating that some of the family 

situations was good or excellent, compared to others who do 

not have a good financial situation.

Q. Did some of the documents indicate financial situation 

was bad?

A. Absolutely.

Q. All right. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to search HLF Search No. 

160, please, page 36. Let's go to page 1, first. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is this item, if you can recognize 

it from the first screen?

A. This is another one of those documents that contained a 

bunch of financial exhibits, or exhibits related to financial 

transactions.

MR. JONAS: If we can go to page 36, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What does this say about the economic 

situation about some of the people the HLF was giving money 

to?

A. It is entitled, "List of orphans of the Holy Land 

Foundation, supervising party of the Jenin zakat." So this 

document, according to the document, relates to HLF orphans 

supported through the Jenin zakat committee. 

And if you will look, it has the name, the city, the 

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sponsorship amount, a column for recipient signature. And 

then again, this is a translation, so if you look at the 

original there are some signatures on the original. And in 

the notes column there are notes. And by some of the 

individuals' names --

Q. Let me interrupt for a moment. I am sorry. 

MR. JONAS: If we can enlarge the right side, 

please, the notes column. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. Go ahead. 

A. On the first orphan it says, "Financial situation is 

excellent." On the third it says, "Financial situation good. 

Student's behavior is not good." The next one says, "Incoming 

sponsorship. They have more than one." Further down, one of 

the notes "Has a second sponsorship. Financial situation is 

good." Going on down, again you will note where it says, 

"Financial situation is good." And I think there are several 

more pages of this.

MR. JONAS: Let's to page 39 of this document, HLF 

Search No. 160. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What do we see here on the notes column?

A. Again, this is the same type of sheet with the name of 

the orphan, the date, the amount that was paid. And you see 

the first one says, "Has a second sponsorship. Financial 

situation is excellent." The next one says, "This girl is 

handicapped." 

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But then you go on down and for one of the children that 

received money, it says, "Financial situation is good, but he 

has bad morals."

Q. And just so we are clear, on some of those applications 

we looked at where Iraq or Saddam Hussein is giving money, 

what did it say about the financial situation of those people? 

Not on this document; on the prior documents. 

A. Well, it depended on the particular situation of the 

orphan.

Q. Have you seen ones where it said the financial situation 

is bad?

A. Yes.

Q. And here we see ones where it says the financial 

situation is good?

A. Yes.

Q. Does this document here, the one that is on the screen, 

HLF Search No. 160, for these people where it says financial 

situation is good, does it indicate anywhere that there is a 

financial need for those families?

A. Not on this document.

Q. Okay. Did you come across any videotapes seized in the 

course of the investigation where the HLF is interviewing 

or -- I am sorry. Withdrawn. Any videotapes seized where 

people are being interviewed, apparently in the West Bank or 

Gaza, regarding the HLF?

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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can play HLF Search No. 113.

(Whereupon, HLF Search No. 113 was played, while 

questions were propounded.) 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, where is this from, based 

upon what it says?

A. Okay. It was taken from the HLF, but it says Ramallah 

zakat committee.

Q. And was this one of the committees you testified about 

yesterday that the HLF provided money to?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Do you know the date of this video?

A. No, I don't.

Q. Okay. 

A. Excuse me. You asked me the date on the bottom of the 

screen. It says September 5th, 1993.

Q. Okay. Thank you. 

Do you recognize this individual.

A. Yes.

Q. Who is he?

A. Mahmoud Mosleh.

Q. Have we seen him before, or have you testified about him 

already?

A. Yes.

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Q. How?

A. He is a member of the Ramallah zakat committee. He is on 

that summary chart that we did yesterday, and we saw a brief 

interview with him yesterday on a videotape.

Q. Okay. Did you testify about this individual Hosni Abu 

Awad?

A. Yes. He is a member of the Ramallah zakat committee and 

is on the chart.

Q. Okay. Hamzah Deeb, is he on your schedule?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this man on your list, on your schedule.

A. No.

Q. Okay. Is this individual Ibrahim Abu Salem on your list?

A. He is, but with a different committee; with the Islamic 

Science and Culture. He had affiliations with several 

entities.

Q. Okay. Omar Hamdan, is he on your list?

A. He is.

Q. Which committee?

A. The Ramallah zakat committee.

Q. Okay. Agent Burns, were there other videos seized where 

they were sort of interviewing people, like they did in the 

last clip? 

A. Yes.

THE COURT: Let's take the morning break. Let's 

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take a 20-minute break. Let's be back at 11:00. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 11:00. 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I just want to move for a 

mistrial based on the repeated transparent gratuitous 

references to Iraq. There is no relevance to money coming 

from there with respect to where specific sources were. 

THE COURT: The motion for mistrial is denied.

MR. JONAS: Just a housekeeping matter we can take 

up when we get back if you want. 

THE COURT: Go ahead.

MR. JONAS: Of the exhibits listed on my courtesy 

list yesterday that were all moved in en masse, there was 

about eight that I decided I am not going to question Agent 

Burns about that I would like to withdraw. I can just give a 

list to Ms. Helms, if you want.

MS. MORENO: We may have an issue about one of them.

MS. DUNCAN: We may have an issue as to more than 

one.

THE COURT: Let him give you a list. 

We will be in recess.

(Brief Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Thank you, sir.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, when we broke we watched the 

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videotape where a child was being interviewed. Were there 

other videotapes of other people being interviewed that appear 

to be taken in either the West Bank or Gaza?

A. Yes.

Q. And these tapes were found at either HLF or InfoCom?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play InfoCom Search No. 80.

(Whereupon, InfoCom Search No. 80 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, were there any videotapes 

seized from the Holy Land Foundation showing children in the 

United States?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play HLF Search No. 72, 

please.

(Whereupon, HLF Search No. 72 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you recognize anyone on the screen, 

Agent Burns?

A. Yes. That is on the right the Defendant Mohamed El 

Mezain, and next to him is the HLF representative from Chicago 

Kifah Mustapha.

Q. Any other videotapes involving children?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: If we can play HLF Search No. 73, 

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please?

MS. HOLLANDER: Can we have the date for that? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Do you know the date of the video that we 

played?

A. I don't know the date.

Q. Do you know the date of the one we are about to play?

A. I don't believe we could date it. 

MR. JONAS: HLF Search No. 73, please.

(Whereupon, HLF Search No. 73 was played, while 

questions were propounded.)

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is being held up, if you can see in 

the middle of the screen?

A. The boy in the back is holding a gun in his left hand.

Q. Agent Burns, can you see what that child is holding in 

his hands?

A. It is a rifle. 

Q. Do you recognize anyone on the screen?

A. You can see Munzer Taleb as one of the band members in 

the background.

Q. Agent Burns, there has been discussion in this case about 

a massacre that happened at the Ibrahimi mosque. Are you 

familiar with that?

A. Yes.

Q. In reviewing the documentation again that the FBI 

gathered in the course of this investigation, did you come 

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across any documentation that the HLF supported some of the 

victims of the Ibrahimi mosque massacre?

A. Yes.

Q. That is where Baruch Goldstein just went in and started 

shooting people up?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Let me give you several exhibits. Do you have 

before you InfoCom Search No. 13?

A. I do.

Q. What is that document?

A. This is a group of financial documents that relate to the 

Holy Land Foundation's transfers involving the Islamic 

Charitable Society of Hebron.

Q. And InfoCom Search No. 100, what is that?

A. This is a set of payment vouchers that relate to one of 

the transactions referenced in the financial exhibits.

Q. And does InfoCom Search No. 100 relate to payments 

regarding the Ibrahimi mosque massacre?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you have before you also what has been marked as 

U.N. General Assembly Document?

A. I do.

Q. And what is that document?

A. This is a United Nations report of the special committee 

to investigate Israeli practices affecting the human rights of 

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the Palestinian people and other Arabs of the Palestinian 

occupied territories.

Q. Does this document list out individuals who were killed 

in the Ibrahimi mosque? 

A. It does.

Q. Has a demonstrative exhibit been created comparing the 

list of InfoCom Search No. 100 of the victims HLF supported 

against the U.N. list?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that this demonstrative exhibit comparing those two 

exhibits?

A. It is.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I offer into evidence 

Demonstrative No. 32 as a demonstrative. 

THE COURT: Counsel? 

MR. DRATEL: Can we approach just for a second? 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. DRATEL: I think it is misleading because -- 

This is one we got yesterday afternoon. It is misleading 

because it is not -- It takes two parts of a document that are 

disconnected and tries to put them together and tries to make 

it look like it is straight through. The U.N. document, the 

one on the right -- And also they are not Ibrahimi massacre 

victims, they are not all victims. There are three in the 

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bottom that aren't.

MR. JONAS: First of all, the U.N. document is a 

fairly thick document that discusses people killed by the 

Israelis and sections of people killed by Hamas and other 

factions. It is fairly thick. Most of it is irrelevant. The 

relevance here is that HLF supported what they listed as 22 

victims. It is in InfoCom Search No. 100. The U.N. listed 

out the victims. They also listed out three other people who 

died a month later. Those three other people who died the HLF 

supported under the Ibrahimi mosque massacre. Those people 

who died per the U.N. document were suspected of being Hamas. 

So our point is HLF is supporting Hamas members under the 

guise of this Ibrahimi mosque massacre, people who didn't die 

at the massacre.

MR. DRATEL: That is completely misleading because 

that is not what the HLF -- There was a Ibrahimi mosque 

massacre committee. It is not the HLF that characterizes them 

as Ibrahimi mosque victims. It is the committee in Hebron 

that characterized them that way.

MR. JONAS: It is on their documents, these 

particular ones taken from InfoCom. If they want to argue -- 

THE COURT: It identifies those victims as victims 

of that particular massacre? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: I think that is going -- 

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MR. DRATEL: No, it doesn't. 

MR. JONAS: Do you want me to pull the exhibit? 

THE COURT: I will have to look at it. This is 

InfoCom No. 100? 

MR. JONAS: Yes. These are payment vouchers. These 

are the translations. You can look at all the names. I won't 

point out the ones that are at issue. 

THE COURT: And that is what you are having listed 

on that demonstrative? 

MR. JONAS: The demonstrative has the names on the 

left side. On the right side is both the U.N list of the 

massacre -- 

THE COURT: What you are saying is misleading? 

MR. DRATEL: This is not Holy Land saying this is 

the Ibrahimi mosque massacre. It is the committee that 

characterized it that way, not Holy Land. So I think the 

demonstrative -- If they want to use the documents, that is 

fine, but the demonstrative is misleading.

THE COURT: I will overrule that. You can argue 

that. The documents are in evidence. You can argue to the 

jury what you are saying.

MR. DRATEL: We have 106 issues, too, with respect 

to a document, with respect to that list as well.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JONAS: We can address the 106 issue later, 

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because we will have issues regarding that. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Demonstrative No. 32, that is admitted.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Agent Burns, I showed you two InfoCom 

documents just now, I believe No. 13 and 100. 

A. Correct.

Q. I just want to be clear, those were found where?

A. Within the HLF materials at InfoCom.

Q. So these are HLF documents?

A. Yes.

Q. Did HLF create the documents, as far as you can tell?

A. It appears so.

MR. JONAS: If I may approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I will give you a hard copy of that. I 

don't know if you can see the screen. We don't have that 

scanned so we can't put it on the screen. 

Agent Burns, looking at this demonstrative, what is on 

the left hand side?

A. On the left hand side you have a list of individuals from 

InfoCom Exhibit No. 100 that were labeled as martyrs of -- 

Q. I am sorry, Agent Burns. 

A. That were labeled as victims of that Ibrahimi mosque 

massacre.

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MR. JONAS: If we can put on the screen InfoCom 

Search No. 100, the first page, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Okay. Is this what the exhibit looks 

like?

A. Yes. There were 22 of these payment vouchers. They were 

in Arabic and we had them translated. Actually there were 44, 

but they were duplicates, two sets of the same 22 payment 

vouchers. 

MR. JONAS: And if we will go to page 8. If we can 

enlarge the one on the bottom right hand corner, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) I just want to use this one as an example 

for a moment. How do you know -- First of all, are all these 

payment vouchers identical other than the recipient?

A. No.

Q. What are the differences?

A. Some people received more money than others. 

Q. Is that listed on Demonstrative No. 32, the amount of 

money people received?

A. It is.

Q. Besides the amount of money, are the payment vouchers 

identical?

A. Yes.

Q. Where on the payment voucher does it identify that these 

people are receiving funds because of someone dying in the 

Ibrahimi mosque massacre?

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A. It says on the top of the payment voucher "The committee 

for the families of the Ibrahim Sanctuary Massacre." And if 

you also look at the paperwork that went with these payment 

vouchers, which is in InfoCom Search No. 13, it states that 

these were part of the Ibrahimi mosque massacre victims.

Q. Okay. On the right hand side of Demonstrative No. 32, 

can you explain to us the first portion of that?

A. The first portion of that is a list that was published by 

the United Nations General Assembly. The date is to the left, 

which is the date of that massacre of those people, February 

24th, 1994. And next to it is a list of the names and ages of 

the people who died during that massacre. The place of 

residence is noted next to that, and then remarks. And it 

tells how they were shot dead by that individual Baruch 

Goldstein.

Q. Are there any names listed in InfoCom Search No. 100, 

that is on the left side of this Demonstrative No. 32, as 

being supported by the Holy Land Foundation that are not on 

the U.N. list of victims of the Ibrahimi massacre?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Two of them are Iyad Hussein Abu Hadid Abu Isneinah.

Q. Okay. I don't know if you can see where I am pointing, 

but it is that seven from the bottom?

A. Right there, that guy.

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Q. Is that where I am pointing?

A. Yes.

Q. Anyone else?

A. If you move down third from the bottom, Mohamed Ayhid Abu 

Isneinah al-Atrash.

Q. How much did those two individuals receive?

A. Both of those individuals received 900 shekels.

MR. DRATEL: Objection. The individuals did not 

receive it.

MR. JONAS: Thank you. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) How much did their family members 

receive?

A. Their family members received 900, and it says shekels on 

here. I am not sure if it was shekels or dollars. It says 

900 shekels.

Q. Those two individuals you just identified as not being 

victims listed on the U.N. list, are they anywhere in that 

U.N. document?

A. They are.

Q. And are they on a different page than the listing of the 

victims?

A. Yes. They are on page four.

Q. Okay. Before we go to that, do you see on the screen one 

of those payment vouchers on InfoCom Search No. 100?

A. Yes.

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Q. Is that a payment voucher for one of those individuals 

you just identified as not being part of the U.N. list of 

victims?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can go to the U.N. document, page 

4, please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is this part of page 4 on the bottom half 

of the right side of Demonstrative No. 32?

A. It is.

Q. And what -- Does this identify two of those people that 

are on the HLF list?

A. Yes. The two that you pointed out on the chart are noted 

here.

Q. And how are they listed in the U.N document?

A. Iyad Abu Sneineh and Mohammed Abu Sneineh.

Q. How do you know those two are the same individuals on 

this list?

A. Because they have the same names and family names. A lot 

of these individuals will have four, five, six names as a part 

of their whole name, but their first names and family names 

are the same.

Q. What does it say about who these people are on the U.N. 

document and how they died? Well, before you go there, what 

was the date of the massacre?

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A. The date of the massacre was February 25th, 1994.

Q. Okay. What date did these people die, according to the 

U.N. document?

A. March 23rd, 1994.

Q. So that roughly a month later?

A. Yes.

Q. What does it say in the U.N. document as to who these 

people were?

A. It says, "The three"--because there were three--"were 

reportedly leaders of Hamas in the West Bank. Killed in a 

30-hour-long shoot-out with the Army in Hebron. The 

confrontation ended when their hide-out was demolished by 

explosives. Four bodies retrieved from the rubble."

Q. Did you look to see how much money the HLF paid to the 

members of the victims' families from the mosque, per the HLF 

or the InfoCom records that you have?

A. According to the exhibits that we have, a majority of the 

people received $300 or shekels, as opposed to $2900 these two 

individuals received. There were a couple of individuals, 

including the nephew of Abdel Khaleq Natshe, one of the 

leaders of the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron, who 

received $900 or 900 shekels. And there was one individual 

who received $1350. But for the most part, all but -- Let me 

count them. There were 22 payment vouchers. Six of those 

individuals received more than $300, two of those individuals 

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are the people who were killed a month later, and one of those 

individuals was the nephew of Abdel Khaleq Natshe, the leader 

of the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron.

Q. Was there any documentation indicating how much the HLF 

paid as a project?

A. According to their documentation, the project information 

attached to these payment vouchers, which part of that is 

contained in InfoCom Search No. 13, indicates that the HLF 

paid to the Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron $43,000 for 

these individuals.

Q. And just so we are clear, InfoCom Search No. 100, was 

that sort of broken out in order to be made as a separate 

exhibit?

A. Yes.

Q. Of the payment vouchers or payment coupons?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. Of the $43,000 that was paid, going through the 

records were you able to account for all $43,000, based upon 

the supporting documentation?

A. Based upon the supporting documentation that they had 

that was attached, there were 22 separate payment vouchers for 

22 individuals that we have just identified. Adding up all of 

those amounts, assuming those amounts were dollars, because 

dollars are more than shekels, only that $5,000 was accounted 

for, according to their supporting documentation.

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Q. Was there any indication as to where the remainder may 

have gone?

A. Not in the information that was attached to that project 

report.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I will pass the witness. 

THE COURT: Do you want to approach the bench a 

minute? 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

THE COURT: Is this when we had agreed to break? We 

agreed to break, so are you ready to call your next witness? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Let's do that, then. 

MS. SHAPIRO: I just need to send somebody out to 

get him. 

THE COURT: All right. We will work until about 

12:30.

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Members of the jury, the parties have 

agreed to take another witness out of turn, so Agent Burns 

will step down at this time, and then we will hear from 

another witness who needs to testify today. And then she will 

come back on the witness stand sometime this afternoon and be 

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cross examined by counsel for the Defense. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, the Government calls Bob 

McBrien, and he is on his way in.

THE COURT: All right. 

(Whereupon, the oath was administered by the Clerk.)

JOHN ROBERT McBRIEN,

Testified on direct examination by Ms. Shapiro as follows:

Q. Good morning, Mr. McBrien. 

A. Good morning.

Q. Could you please state and spell your last name for the 

record, please?

A. My name is John Robert McBrien, M-c-B-R-I-E-N.

Q. Okay. Mr. McBrien, where are you employed?

A. I am employed in the U.S. Treasury Department, Office of 

Foreign Assets Control, known as OFAC.

Q. What is the Office of Foreign Assets Control?

A. We are the entity of the Government that enforces and 

administers economic sanctions programs imposed by the 

President or by some other act of Congress.

Q. And what is your job title within OFAC? I will call it 

OFAC, if that is okay. 

A. Yes. I am the associate director for investigation and 

enforcement.

Q. How long have you been the associate director?

A. I have been associate director since May of 2005.

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Q. May of 2005?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was your position before that time?

A. Before that time I was the chief of what was then called 

the International Programs Division.

Q. And how long were you the chief of the International 

Programs Division?

A. From roughly the beginning of 1988 until the change. We 

reorganized.

Q. Okay. And so how long altogether have you been with the 

Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control?

A. Twenty years.

Q. And are you familiar with the term specially designated 

terrorist?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. What is that?

A. Specially designated terrorist is a person, and that can 

be an entity or an individual, that has been defined further 

under the authority of an executive order as being a 

prohibited party for U.S. persons to have transactions of any 

sort with, and whose assets will be blocked within U.S. 

jurisdiction.

Q. Let me break that down a little bit. First of all, what 

is an executive order?

A. An executive order is a legal action taken by the 

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President of the United States. In the case of what OFAC 

does, it is dependent upon the President making a finding that 

is an unusual, an extraordinary threat to the U.S. national 

security foreign policy or economy, the threat essentially 

emanating principally or exclusively from abroad, and having 

made that finding to deal with the threat, he imposes an 

economic sanctions program of some sort. 

Q. Okay. And let me show you what has been entered into 

evidence as InfoCom Search No. 37. 

MS. SHAPIRO: If we could pull that up, please. 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Is this a copy of Executive Order 

12947?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Okay. 

MS. SHAPIRO: If we could go to page 2 of that 

exhibit, please. 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Can you see that on the screen? Let's 

try to enlarge the top half, please. Could you just read 

where it starts, "I, William J. Clinton"?

A. I, William J. Clinton, President of the United States of 

America, find that grave acts of violence committed by foreign 

terrorists that disrupt the Middle East peace process 

constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national 

security, foreign policy, and economy of the United States, 

and hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that 

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threat."

Q. Okay. And does this executive order then go on to 

explain that certain transactions are blocked or prohibited?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Okay. Could you continue reading down -- 

MS. SHAPIRO: If you could enlarge the bottom third 

of that page, please, where it says Section (b). 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Could you read Subsections (b) and (c), 

please?

A. "(b) any transaction or dealing by United States persons 

or within the United States in property or interests in 

property of the persons designated in or pursuant to this 

order is prohibited, including the making or receiving of any 

contribution of funds, goods, or services to or for the 

benefit of such persons."

Q. Okay. Let me interrupt you for a moment. When it says 

United States persons, does that also include organizations?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Continue. 

A. "(c) any transaction by any United States person or 

within the United States that evades or avoids, or has the 

purpose of evading or avoiding, or attempts to violate, any of 

the prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited."

Q. Okay. And when we talk about being blocked, in sort of a 

layperson's language what does that mean?

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A. It means the property is frozen. It is not seized by the 

United States in the sense that it would be taken and there is 

ultimately a forfeiture, but it is blocked and held -- It is 

essentially the use of the property is incapacitated, 

immobilized.

Q. A freezing?

A. Freezing.

Q. And is Hamas designated as part of this executive order?

A. Yes, it is.

MS. SHAPIRO: Can we just go to the page, the last 

page of this exhibit, please? If we can just make that 

bigger. 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) And do you see where Hamas appears on 

that list?

A. Yes, I do. Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas.

Q. Okay. Now, are you familiar with the term specially 

designated national?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. What is that?

A. A specially designated national is a person that is an 

entity or individual that is -- Under this executive order it 

can be someone committing acts of violence or that may be 

committing acts of violence to further terrorism. It may be 

providing material financial services or support, or it may 

be, and this is a standard comment to most executive orders, a 

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party owned or controlled by, or acting for or on behalf of 

another designated party, including those on the annex.

Q. Okay. Does the specially designated nationals list, does 

that include more than specially designated terrorists?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. In other words, does OFAC administer more programs other 

than terrorists programs?

A. Yes, we administer more than 20 programs.

Q. Okay. And the specially designated national list, does 

that include all of the OFAC designations?

A. Yes, that list does.

Q. Is there -- Can you access the specially designated 

national list off the Treasury Department website?

A. Yes, you may.

Q. Can you also access a subset of that list for just 

specially designated terrorists under this particular 

executive order that we just looked at?

A. Yes, you can.

Q. And do you have a set of exhibits in front of you, Mr. 

McBrien?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. Can you look at what has been marked as OFAC 

No. 1?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And without going into the substance of the document, can 

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you tell us generally what this document is?

A. That is a print copy of the specially designated 

terrorist list.

Q. Okay. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I move the admission of 

OFAC No. 1.

MR. CLINE: No objection, subject to the discussion 

we had this morning.

THE COURT: And that is admitted. .

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Okay. I just wanted you to see what 

this looks like. Does this look like a list of just specially 

designated terrorists or SDTs? Do you see SDT?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And just to show you the thickness of this list, 

it is a fairly small list. Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Is this smaller than the specially designated nationals 

list? 

A. Substantially.

Q. About how thick is the specially designated nationals 

list?

A. I believe it is around 400 pages at the moment.

Q. Okay. Now, Hamas appears on this list. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And when the -- Well, who can make a designation, 

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first of all?

A. Well, when he issues an executive order, the President 

may name parties in the executive order, and he can do it in 

the body of the order, in the preface, or as in an annex -- 

Q. My question -- I am sorry to interrupt you. I don't know 

if you understood the question. The question is does the 

President or can only the President designate, or can the 

Treasury Department also designate?

A. Treasury also can designate.

Q. All right. So when the President or the Treasury 

Department designates an organization as a specially 

designated terrorist, do they typically designate every 

sub-group of that organization or every component of that 

terrorist organization?

A. Not typically, no.

Q. And why not?

A. Depending upon the different programs, the nature of the 

organizations may be so comprehensive that naming all the 

parties is a task beyond the resources, and beyond the wise 

use of the resources we are devoting to the program.

Q. And why is that beyond the wise use of the resources?

A. Well, we seek to target what are the key nodes or the 

umbrella aspects of the organizations, particularly in the 

specially designated terrorism program.

Q. Why is that. 

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A. Basically we get the most bang for the buck. We can stop 

the most money flowing at one point by designating those 

parties.

Q. And are there other concerns also with respect to trying 

to designate every single sub-entity of a terrorist 

organization?

A. Yes. There are other factors such as their diplomatic 

concerns that may come into play in a particular case. There 

may be interests of other federal agencies, investigative 

agencies, intelligence agencies, where our action might 

adversely impact something that they were considering or had 

underway.

Q. And in your experience do terrorist organizations 

sometimes work through front organizations?

A. Very commonly.

Q. And what is a front organization?

A. A front organization is a representative that tries to -- 

normally tries to conceal its linkage the parent, the 

specially designated terrorist organization. It is a straw 

man, a middleman. It can be an entity, it can be an 

individual could be a straw man. It is a way of trying to 

avoid trying to be identified what or who you really are.

Q. Can front organizations change? 

A. Yes. In our work we tend to call them transformers. 

They are those that change frequently.

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Q. I would like to play for you what has been admitted into 

evidence as El Mezain Wiretap No. 13. This is an excerpt of a 

conversation between Abdel Haleem Ashqar and Mohamed El 

Mezain.

(Whereupon, Government's Exhibit El Mezain Wiretap No. 13 

was played in open court.)

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Do you see where it says -- 

MR. DRATEL: Can we get a date on the conversation, 

Your Honor, please? 

MS. SHAPIRO: I believe the witness won't know the 

date, Your Honor, but it is in evidence as October 24th, 1994.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Do you see where it says, "The name 

changes and the work continues as is. And if it did not come 

through point A, it will come through point B. And God knows 

all secrets"? 

Is that consistent with your rationale for why not every 

sub-entity or component of a terrorist organization is 

designated?

A. Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, we object to not being 

consistent with rendering an expert opinion through this 

witness, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Overrule that objection. Go 

ahead. You may answer.

THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. That is consistent with 

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the shell game that is often played by these kinds of 

organizations.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Now, sometimes individuals are 

designated. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Does OFAC try to designate all individuals connected to a 

terrorist organization?

A. No, we do not.

Q. I want to turn your attention specifically to the 

designation of Hamas. Hamas is designated under Executive 

Order 12947. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Is the social wing of Hamas separately designated? Is it 

designated in the executive order?

A. The social wing of Hamas is encompassed within the 

designation of Hamas. The U.S. government's action doesn't 

recognize a distinction between the social wing and the 

military wing.

Q. So is it okay to give money if the money is going 

strictly to the social side of Hamas?

A. No, it is not.

Q. And is there a reason why the social wing is not broken 

out from the military wing?

A. A couple of reasons. One is that Hamas as an overall 

organization uses its social side to promote its agenda and 

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itself as an organization, and it is itself a terrorist 

organization. So that is supporting terrorism through that 

social aspect as well. Even if you want to call it community 

building, it still is enforcing the Hamas structure and the 

Hamas infrastructure. 

The other aspect is that the funds that go to Hamas, any 

aspect of Hamas, and even some physical goods that could go to 

Hamas are fungible. They can be used for whatever purpose the 

organization decides to use them. If they want to bleed off a 

small part of the funds for terrorism or a large part of the 

funds for terrorism they, can do so with impunity.

Q. Okay. Now, if not every person or every sub-component or 

element of Hamas appears on the designation list separately 

listed, then how do people know not to give to that 

organization?

A. Well, first the organization is named, and then the 

executive order itself is expansive and our regulations spell 

out who the party is.

Q. When you say the organization is named, do you mean Hamas 

is named?

A. Hamas is named.

Q. Okay. And so how do people -- What do people need to do 

in order to be sure that they are not giving to any part of 

Hamas, even those who are not listed?

A. They need to exercise good faith, due diligence to 

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understand what parties they are dealing with, particularly 

those that are dealing in a high risk area such as the Middle 

East.

Q. So are they expected to do more than just check the list?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Do you have before you what has been marked as 

OFAC No. 3?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And again, without going into the substance of the 

document, can you identify what this document is?

A. The documents, the Treasury Department's antiterrorist 

financing guidelines, in particular the voluntary best 

practices for U.S. based charities.

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I move the admission of 

OFAC No. 3.

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. .

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) I am not sure this is in the computer. 

Let me just check. Is this OFAC No. 3? 

A. Yes, ma'am, it is.

Q. Okay. And I am going to try to make larger the bottom 

part of this. Is that too small to read?

A. No, I can read that.

Q. Okay. And I think -- Do you have a copy of this in front 

of you as well?

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A. Yes, I do. That is easier.

Q. Okay. Can you read, starting from the first sentence 

starting from, "These Guidelines"?

A. "These Guidelines are designed to assist charities that 

attempt in good faith to protect from terrorist abuse and are 

not intended to address the problem of organizations that use 

the cover of charitable work, whether real or perceived, to 

provide support to terrorist groups or fronts operating on 

behalf of terrorist groups."

Q. Okay. And if you are an organization that is acting as a 

front or using a charitable organization as a cover, then do 

these Guidelines actually apply to you?

A. Would you repeat the question, please? 

Q. Yes. If the intent of an organization is to act as a 

front or a cover for a designated organization, do these 

guidelines really have any application to you?

A. No. These guidelines are to avoid that and to deal with 

good faith organizations.

Q. Okay. Let's look at another part of this document, if 

you could turn to page 10. And if you could read starting 

with that paragraph (b)(1), and then the first sentence of the 

footnote that it references. 

A. "(b)(1), The charity should conduct basic vetting of 

grantees as follows: The charity should conduct a reasonable 

search of publicly available information to determine whether 

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the grantee is suspected of activity relating to terrorism, 

including terrorist financing or other support. Charities 

should not enter into a relationship with a grantee where any 

terrorist-related suspicions exist."

Q. And footnote 1?

A. "List-checking alone, as described throughout this 

section, does not guarantee the safe and secure delivery of 

charitable funds and services in high risk areas. For this 

reason, the guidelines encourage charities to employ all 

reasonably available resources, both when determining the 

level of risk in a particular charitable operation and when 

engaging in appropriate vetting procedures."

Q. Okay. And if we could turn to the next page. If you 

could read in footnote 3 starting about a third of the way 

down, the word "although."

A. "Although the SDN list includes persons meeting the 

criteria established in the authorities or executive orders 

that define certain OFAC sanctions, programs transactions with 

actors not named on the SDN list may nevertheless violate U.S. 

sanctions due to interests of designated parties in such 

transactions or prohibitions owing to country-based OFAC 

administered sanctions programs."

Q. You can continue to the end of that footnote. 

A. "For example, if a charity engages in a particular 

transaction with a party not on the SDN list that involves the 

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property or interests in property of a designated actor, the 

transaction may be subject to OFAC sanctions. This 

underscores the importance of charities knowing their grantees 

and monitoring their programs and transactions through the use 

of appropriate due diligence measures. 

"Therefore, while the SDN list is a critically important 

compliance tool that can assist charities in meeting their 

legal obligations under the variety of sanctions programs that 

OFAC administers, it should only form one part of a charitable 

organization's broader risk-based approach to protect against 

the risks of terrorist abuse."

Q. Okay. Thank you. So according to this document, based 

on your experience, ultimately whose responsibility is it to 

ensure that money is not going to any sub-entity or front 

organization, or any organization in which a listed 

organization has an interest?

A. It is the entity or individual making the contribution, 

particularly an entity or individual that accumulates funds to 

move forward as a charitable organization.

Q. So if you knew that one of these sub-organizations not 

separately listed on the list, if you knew it was connected in 

some way, or benefited a listed organization, would it be okay 

to give to that sub-entity because it doesn't appear on the 

list?

A. No.

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Q. Now, you testified that OFAC generally does not go down 

and designate separately these sub-components or sub-entities 

of a listed organization, but from time to time does that 

happen, too?

A. Yes, that does.

Q. Are you familiar with an organization called the al-Salah 

Society in the Gaza strip?

A. Yes, ma'am, I am.

Q. I am going to show you what has been admitted as Defense 

Exhibit No. 1052. Do you have a copy of that in front of you? 

I think we might be able to bring this up on the computer. 

Okay. It will be a little easier to read. 

A. I have it.

Q. Can you read the date and the title of this, and the 

first paragraph, please?

A. The date is August 7th, 2007. The title is "Treasury 

designates al-Salah Society key support note for Hamas."

Q. And if you will read the first paragraph?

A. "The U.S. Department of the Treasury today designated the 

al-Salah Society one of the largest and best known Hamas 

charitable organizations in the Palestinian territories. 

Al-Salah Society's director Ahmad al-Kurd was also designated 

today."

Q. Okay. Now, I think the Defense already read the next 

paragraph, so let's skip to the third paragraph. And then if 

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you could finish the page, please. 

A. "The al-Salah Society supported Hamas-affiliated 

combatants during the first Intifada and recruited and 

indoctrinated youth to support Hamas' activities. It also 

financed commercial stores, kindergartens, and the purchase of 

land for Hamas. 

"One of the most senior Gaza-based Hamas leaders and 

founders, Ismail Abu Shanab, openly identified the al-Salah 

Society as one of the three Islamic charities that form Hamas' 

welfare arm. The al-Salah Society has received substantial 

funding from Persian Gulf countries, including at least 

hundreds of thousands of dollars from Kuwaiti donors. 

"The al-Salah Society is directed Ahmed al-Kurd a 

recognized high ranking Hamas leader in Gaza. Al-Kurd's 

affiliation with Hamas goes back over a decade."

Q. Could I stop you for a moment? It says al-Kurd's 

affiliation with Hamas goes back for over a decade. So let's 

say that in 2001, for example, somebody wanted to give money 

to the al-Salah Society. Okay? Would that have been okay 

because the al-Salah Society is not listed on the SDN or the 

SDT list?

A. If they had no knowledge and had no reason to know, it 

would not have been prohibited.

Q. And if they had a reason to know that Ahmad al-Kurd and 

the al-Salah Society were connected to Hamas, would that have 

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been okay? 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I object to the legal 

opinion and also to expert opinion from someone who hasn't 

been designated. 

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. 

THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the last question, 

please.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Yes. If someone knew that the al-Salah 

Society and Ahmad al-Kurd were connected to Hamas, but 

al-Salah and Ahmad al-Kurd were not listed on the SDT list, 

would it have been okay to give to Ahmad al-Kurd or the 

al-Salah Society?

A. No, it would not. It would be prohibited.

Q. Can you continue after -- I think we stopped at the words 

"over a decade." Could you continue with "During the first 

Intifada"?

A. "During the first Intifada, al-Kurd served as a Hamas 

Shura Council member in Gaza. As of late 2003 al-Kurd was 

allegedly the top Hamas leader in Deir al-Balah in Gaza. 

Since mid-2005, he has served as the major of Deir al-Balah, 

elected as a Hamas candidate. 

"The al-Salah Society has employed a number of Hamas 

military wing members. In late 2002 an official of the 

al-Salah Society in Gaza was the principal leader of a Hamas 

military wing structure in the al-Maghazi refugee camp in 

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Gaza. The founder and former director of the al-Salah 

Society's al-Maghazi branch reportedly also operated as a 

member of the Hamas military structure in al-Maghazi, 

participated in weapons deals, and served as a liaison to the 

rest of the Hamas structure in al-Maghazi. And Least four 

other Hamas military wing members in the al-Maghazi refugee 

camp in Gaza were tied to the al-Salah Society. 

"The al-Salah Society was included on a list of suspected 

Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad affiliated NGOs whose 

accounts were frozen by the Palestinian Authority as of late 

August 2003. After freezing the bank accounts, PA officials 

confirmed that the al-Salah Society was a front for Hamas."

Q. Okay. Now, is there something -- Is there any reason 

from this statement why al-Salah Society and Ahmad al-Kurd 

might have been singled out for designation despite the 

general practice of not listing sub-components or all fronts 

of a listed organization?

A. No. 1, it is identified as a major Hamas organizational 

element, No. 2, it is linked to both the Hamas and to the 

Palestinian Islamic Jihad, another designated terrorist 

organization, and No. 3, there was action taken by the 

Palestinian authorities, and it is not uncommon in U.S. 

government efforts to encourage bilateral and multilateral 

support against terrorist organizations for the U.S. to take 

action as well as another government.

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Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, does OFAC sometimes do outreach 

to organizations or government agencies with respect to 

compliance issues? In other words, does OFAC sometimes go out 

and talk to agencies or organizations about what they need to 

do with respect to complying with the designation program?

A. Yes, we do.

Q. And have you sometimes done that yourself?

A. I have done that myself.

Q. And do you tell organizations that they can rely on the 

designation list alone with respect to where they can send 

their money?

A. No, we do not.

Q. Is the designation list an exclusive list?

A. No, it is not.

Q. And is it an exhaustive list?

A. No, it is not.

Q. Does the designation list give someone a blank check to 

give to any organization it wants so long as it is not on the 

list?

A. No.

Q. What is the test for whether you can give to someone or 

some place that is not on the designation list itself?

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I object to the legal 

question. 

THE COURT: Overruled. He may answer that. Go 

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ahead. 

THE WITNESS: The basic test is, is the entity or 

the individual owned or controlled by or acting for or on 

behalf of the designated entity or the designated 

organization. To make that in a simpler way of describing 

that, it means are you acting as an intermediary for them, are 

you acting as their front organization, are you their straw 

man, are you their go between. And it doesn't matter whether 

the organization set itself up that way or if a person who 

wants to contribute to the prohibited party to the SDT finds 

someone to fulfill that role. It is still a prohibited 

situation.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Okay. So if an organization is acting 

to the benefit of a listed organization, is that still 

prohibited?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And is that sort of test that you just 

articulated, is that embodied anywhere within OFAC's 

regulations?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Do you have in front of you what has been marked as OFAC 

No. 5?

A. Yes, ma'am. Yes, I do.

Q. And generally what is this document?

A. This is the Code of Federal Regulations provision for the 

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specially designated terrorist program under Executive Order 

12947.

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I move OFAC 5.

MR. CLINE: Previous objections, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That is overruled and OFAC No. 5 is 

admitted. .

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) I want to direct your attention--I will 

put it up on the elmo--to page 8 of this document, which is 

defined as Section 595.408. 

A. That is good.

Q. Can you read that?

A. That is fine.

Q. All right. Okay. If you could just read subsection (a), 

or the title of this and then subsection (a), which I think 

carries over to the next page. 

A. The title is "charitable contributions to specially 

designated terrorists."

Q. Okay. 

A. "Unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Office 

of Foreign Assets Control by or pursuant to this part, no 

charitable contribution or donation of funds, goods, services, 

or technology to relieve human suffering, such as food, 

clothing, or medicine, may be made to or for the benefit of a 

specially designated terrorist. For purposes of this part, a 

contribution or donation is made to or for the benefit of a 

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specially designated terrorist if made to or in the name of a 

specially designated terrorist; if made to or in the name of 

an entity or individual acting for or on behalf of, or owned 

or controlled by, a specially designated terrorist; or if made 

in an attempt to violate, to evade, or to avoid the bar on the 

provision of contributions or donations to specially 

designated terrorists."

Q. Thank you. Now, you said a few moments ago that OFAC 

sometimes does outreach about compliance issues. Do sometimes 

people call OFAC to talk about compliance issues?

A. Yes, that does happen.

Q. Okay. Do you remember a time after Executive Order 12947 

was signed that a number of Arab-American organizations 

requested a meeting with OFAC?

A. Yes.

Q. And when was that?

A. That was, to the best of my recollection, February of 

1995.

Q. And was that request to have a meeting granted?

A. Yes.

Q. And so there actually was a meeting?

A. We actually held a meeting, yes.

Q. Where was that meeting?

A. That meeting was in OFAC.

Q. And were you in that meeting?

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A. Yes, I was.

Q. And were any of the Defendants in this case in that 

meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. Who?

A. Ghassan Elashi.

Q. Ghassan Elashi?

A. Yes.

MR. CLINE: To avoid any confusion, it is Ghassan 

Elashi.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) I will point you to what has been 

marked as InfoCom Search No. 55. You should have that in 

front of you. 

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And what is this document?

A. That is a list undated of people who were present during 

a meeting at OFAC concerning the terrorism sanctions.

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I move the admission of 

InfoCom Search No. 55.

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. .

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) All right. Do you see your name on 

this list, Mr. McBrien?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And do you see Ghassan Elashi's name on this list?

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A. Yes, I do.

Q. And who is Ghassan Elashi representing?

A. He is representing the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Okay. What is this document generally? I mean, what is 

it?

A. It is simply a list of the people who were present during 

the meeting.

Q. Okay. And what was the subject matter of this meeting?

A. The subject matter of the meeting, as best I recall, was 

the new executive order and its implications for charitable 

giving by American Muslims.

Q. Okay. And did you address that meeting?

A. I was one of those who addressed, the director and I both 

did.

Q. And the director is?

A. Richard Newcomb.

Q. He is the first person on that list?

A. Yes.

Q. And did Richard Newcomb or you tell the participants in 

that meeting that they could give to any organization so long 

as it wasn't on the designation list?

MR. CLINE: I apologize. I object to the leading. 

THE COURT: Sustained, counsel. Do you want to 

rephrase.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) What is it that you talked about at 

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that meeting?

A. We talked about the executive order and the limitations 

of the executive order, and the White House press release that 

explained the overall purpose of the executive order.

Q. And based on your practice of addressing compliance 

issues, is there any chance that you might have told that 

group that the list itself was the exclusive guidance for 

charitable giving?

MR. CLINE: Object to asking him to speculate. 

THE COURT: Overruled. He may answer, if he 

remembers or knows.

THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection, that 

would have been one of the key points that we would have 

made--that our lists are not exclusive, that the list can 

change and will change over time, and that it is not 

sufficient to simply look at that at that point and the annex 

to the executive order and some additional names that OFAC had 

designated simultaneously. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Could I have a moment, please?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Pass the witness. 

THE COURT: Mr. Cline? 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Cline: 

Q. Good morning, sir.

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A. Good morning, sir.

Q. I want to begin by asking you some questions about the 

designation process under Executive Order 12947.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I have a copy of it here. Now, just to back up a little 

bit, persons or organizations that are designated under 12947 

are known as specially designated terrorists. Correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Also sometimes referred to as SDTs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then there are other forms of terrorist designation 

that came into existence later on. Correct?

A. Subsequent executive orders, yes, or other statutory 

authority.

Q. For example, there is the foreign terrorist organization 

designation. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. There is also now something called a specially designated 

global terrorist. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. But I want to focus with you on this 

Executive Order 12947 SDT type designation. Okay?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I am going to put this up here on the elmo, and I 

have focused you in on this section. You able to see that?

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A. Yes, sir, I am.

Q. All right. I want to go through with you quickly the 

different ways that a person or organization can end up 

designated as a specially designated terrorist. Okay?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The first way is that you can be listed in the annex to 

this order. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And, for example, Hamas was designated as part of the 

annex to this order. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. The second way is that foreign persons can be designated 

by the Secretary of State in coordination with the Secretary 

of the Treasury and the Attorney General because they are 

found to have done certain things that are specified there in 

paragraph A and B. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then the third way to be designated is a person 

determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in coordination 

with the Secretary of State and the Attorney General, to be 

owned or controlled by or to act for or on behalf of any of 

the foregoing persons. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And those foregoing persons, that refers back to people 

who are designated under one of those first two means. Right?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, regardless of how you get designated, under which of 

those three methods, a person or an organization is 

designated, its name goes on the Treasury Department list of 

specially designated nationals and blocked persons. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. So you can be -- If you are on that annex to the 

executive order the way Hamas was, Hamas' name goes on the SDN 

list. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And when I talk about the list or the SDN list, I am 

talking about the master list that the Treasury Department 

maintains on its website called the specially designated 

nationals and blocked persons list. Are you with me on that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. If a foreign person is designated by the Secretary 

of State under that second provision that we talked about, 

that person's name as well will go on the list. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And if a person is designated on this third prong because 

the person is owned or controlled by or acts for or on behalf 

of some other designated person, that person's name also goes 

on the SDN list. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, focusing for a second just on that third prong, the 

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roman number (iii) talking about persons determined by the 

Secretary of the Treasury, in coordination with others, to be 

owned or controlled by or to act for or on behalf of the 

foregoing persons -- Are you with me?

A. Yes.

Q. The Secretary of the Treasury has delegated the authority 

to designate persons under that provision to OFAC. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Which again is the Office of Foreign Assets Control. 

Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that is the group you have been part of for 20 years 

now. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And OFAC can designate someone under that part, that 

Roman numeral (iii), if it has a reasonable belief that the 

person is owned or controlled by or acting for or on behalf of 

one of the designated parties. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. So again what is required for a designation under that 

provision is a reasonable belief. It is not, for example, 

proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not proof by a 

preponderance of the evidence, like you have in court. It is 

a reasonable belief. Right?

A. That is correct.

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Q. And as you know from what you have heard in court this 

morning, we have rules of evidence that apply here in court. 

Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. When OFAC is making a designation under this provision we 

have been talking about, you don't have to abide by any 

particular rules of evidence. Right?

A. We don't have rules of evidence under the criminal 

procedures.

Q. That is what I am talking about. The rules of evidence 

you hear us arguing about here in court don't apply to your 

OFAC designation. 

A. They do not apply to OFAC.

Q. And OFAC uses in making these designation determinations 

whatever evidence is available. 

A. We use whatever information is available that we assess 

as being relevant and valuable.

Q. Sure. And you can use -- For example, sometimes you get 

information from foreign governments. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. You can use media reports. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. You can get information off the internet, for example?

A. Yes.

Q. You get can information from CIA and other intelligence 

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agencies. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. I won't ask you anything more than that, just that 

question. And you may get information from the FBI?

A. Yes.

Q. And again, when OFAC designates someone under that 

provision when it comes to a reasonable belief that the person 

is owned or controlled by or acting for or on behalf of one of 

these other designated parties, that entity or person's name 

goes on the SDN list. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, one purpose of the designation is to cut the entity 

off from the U.S. financial system. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Another reason for the designation of an organization is 

to alert the world to its true nature. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I want to just call your attention to something. Do you 

have a boss?

A. Yes.

Q. What is his name?

A. Adam Szubin.

Q. Let me just have you read something from an exhibit that 

Ms. Shapiro showed you just a moment ago. Can you read that 

second paragraph?

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A. Yes.

Q. What I am showing you here is Defense Exhibit No. 1052, 

which Ms. Shapiro had you read portions of a few minutes ago. 

Do you remember that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this is a statement that the Treasury Department put 

out in August of 2007 when it designated the al-Salah Society. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you read that second paragraph, please?

A. Yes, sir. "'Hamas has used the al-Salah Society, as it 

has many other charitable fronts, to finance its terrorist 

agenda,' said Adam Szubin, director of Treasury's Office of 

Foreign Assets Control, OFAC. 'Today's action alerts the 

world to the true nature of al-Salah and cuts it off from the 

U.S. financial system.'"

Q. All right. Thank you. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, would this be a good place 

to break?

THE COURT: Let's take the lunch break. Be back at 

1:45. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess until 1:45.

(Lunch Recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Cline? 

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MR. CLINE: Thank you.

Q. Mr. McBrien good afternoon.

A. Good afternoon, sir.

Q. I want to turn back with you, sir, to Executive Order 

12947. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I am going to put it back up on the screen here. And do 

you recall that you testified on direct about subsection 

(1)(b) of that order?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And subsection (1)(b) "prohibits any transaction or 

dealing by United States persons or within the United States, 

in property or interests in property, of the persons 

designated in or pursuant to this order, including the making 

or receiving of any contribution of funds, goods, or services 

to or for the benefit of such persons." 

A. Correct.

Q. Yes, sir. Now, you also testified about a particular 

regulation from the Department of Treasury that expands upon 

this for the benefit of language. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. And I don't know if you described this in 

your direct testimony, but that regulation that you talked 

about and which I am going to ask you about here in a minute 

is part of the Code of Federal Regulations. Correct?

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A. That is correct.

Q. And the Code of Federal Regulations is a compilation of 

all the regulations from all the various executive agencies. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it runs in total to hundreds of thousands of pages. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, the Treasury Department has a particular segment of 

the Code of Federal Regulations that it uses. Correct?

A. Yes, sir, Part 5.

Q. I beg your pardon?

A. Part 5.

Q. Title 31, and in that OFAC is Part 5. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And Title 31 itself, which is the Treasury division of 

the Code of Federal Regulations, is fairly lengthy. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I may have to move back and forth here a little bit, 

but I am going to put up 31 Code of Federal Regulations 

Section 595.408(a), which is what you testified about this 

morning. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And first of all, the caption, the heading to that is 

"Charitable contributions to specially designated 

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terrorists." 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And specially designated terrorists are those persons and 

entities that we talked about this morning that appear on the 

list. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then in the first fairly long sentence, it more or 

less paraphrases Section (1)(b) of the Executive Order 12947. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Then there is a sentence that begins "For purposes of 

this part." Do you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that sentence then goes on to explain what is meant 

by the phrase "to or for the benefit of." Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, that language beginning with "For purposes of this 

part" doesn't appear in the executive order itself. Correct?

A. No, it does not.

Q. Because it comes from one page to the other I am going to 

read it to you and then put up on screen the part I really 

want you to focus on.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That language says--and again I am reading now from the 

regulation, not from the executive order--"For purposes of 

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this part, a contribution or donation is made to or for the 

benefit of a specially designated terrorist, if made to or in 

the name of specially designated terrorist." So that is one 

meaning for "to or for the benefit of." Correct? 

A. Yes.

Q. "Or if made to or in the name of an entity or individual 

acting for or an behalf of, or owned or controlled by a 

specially designated terrorist." So that is another meaning 

assigned to the phrase "to or for the benefit of." Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then it says, "or if made in an attempt to violate to 

evade or to avoid the bar on the provision of contributions or 

donations to specially designated terrorists." Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that last language actually picks up a notion that is 

captured in paragraph (1)(c) of the executive order. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, that language that I want to ask you a couple of 

questions about is this language "if made to or in the name of 

an entity or individual acting for or on behalf of or owned or 

controlled by a specially designated terrorist." Okay?

A. Yes.

Q. That language is very similar to the language that we 

talked about earlier that appears in subsection (1)(a)(3) of 

the executive order. Correct?

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A. That is correct.

Q. And that language that appears in subsection (1)(a)(3) of 

the executive order is language that defines one of the 

grounds on which an entity can be designated. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And then once designated it is put on the list as we have 

come to call it. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. I want to change subjects and move to the 

February 1995 meeting that you testified about. 

Now, to orient us a little bit in time, the designation 

of Hamas as a specially designated terrorist occurred in 

January 1995. Correct? 

A. Yes. January 23rd, 1995 it was signed by the President, 

and he referred to it either the same day or the day before in 

the State of the Union that it would be occurring.

Q. And there is a press or an information release that came 

out from the White House dated January 24th, 1995. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And I want to ask you -- 

A. I have to check the date.

Q. You have it right. It is January 23rd, '95. And I want 

to ask you about that press release here, or the statement in 

just a moment. But let me ask you some questions about the 

meeting first. And if you need to look for something, take 

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your time.

A. I have it in front of me. Thank you.

Q. Okay. Now, in February of '95 some people who were 

affiliated with certain Arab-American or Muslim-American 

groups asked to meet with the Department of Treasury. 

Correct?

A. That is my recollection, sir, yes.

Q. And they represented a range of organizations. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And one of those organizations was the Holy Land 

Foundation. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the Holy Land Foundation was represented at this 

meeting by Mr. Ghassan Elashi. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the organizations themselves requested this meeting. 

Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the meeting was held in Washington, D.C.

A. In Washington, D.C., yes.

Q. Was it held in the Treasury Department building?

A. In the Treasury Department in the Office of Foreign 

Assets Controls offices.

Q. Is that within the Treasury Department?

A. In an annex building.

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Q. Right next to the White House?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, Mr. Richard Newcomb attended for the Treasury 

Department. Right?

A. Right.

Q. Was he the head of OFAC at the time?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. So he was the top guy at OFAC?

A. Right.

Q. You attended?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were a -- 

A. I was the chief of the International Programs Division at 

that time.

Q. All right. So you were a significant official within 

OFAC. Correct? Don't be modest. 

A. I was a little more senior.

Q. All right. And then a Stephen Pinter from the Treasury 

Department attended. And who was he?

A. He headed the Licensing Division of OFAC.

Q. They are the people who either allow or don't allow you 

to engage in transactions with specially designated 

terrorists. Correct?

A. Among others. Correct. They make the decisions upon 

application.

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Q. Yes. And then a Serena Moe it looks like?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was Ms. Moe?

A. Ms. Moe was senior member of our chief counsel's office.

Q. A lawyer, in other words?

A. Yes.

Q. And a Charles Bishop attended. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was Mr. Bishop?

A. Mr. Bishop was another member of the Licensing Division 

at that time.

Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Elashi -- We have InfoCom Search No. 55 

here in front of us. He signed in, used his own name, gave 

his phone number, and listed he was affiliated with the Holy 

Land Foundation. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, one purpose of this meeting was for the Treasury 

Department to tell these Arab-American and Muslim 

representatives how Executive Order 12947 was operating. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The people, the Arab-Americans who attended this meeting, 

expressed concern, did they not, that the Executive Order 

12947 was causing a chilling effect on charitable giving 

required by the Muslim faith. 

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A. That is correct.

Q. And the Arab-American attendees at this meeting were 

seeking guidance from the Treasury Department in terms of who 

they could send money to and who they couldn't send money to. 

Correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And the Treasury Department told them, the Arab-American 

attendees, it was not going to make a determination for them 

as to who they could or couldn't send money to beyond the 

entities already listed in Executive Order 12947. Correct?

A. That is correct. I believe it limits somewhat the way we 

described it or would ordinarily describe that, which is that 

the list is not exhaustive but the list is a guide, because 

those parties on the list are clearly prohibited. But it is 

not an exhaustive list, and the prohibitions are not limited 

to the list.

Q. Sir, do you remember testifying in this courthouse in a 

different matter on March 31st, 2005? 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you were asked about this meeting, were you not?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you were asked these questions and gave these 

answers. Correct? Page 718 line 8. 

Question, "But in general terms, they were seeking 

guidance from you and asking would it be logical for you to -- 

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because of the nature of that meeting, that they would have 

asked for guidance of who they could send money to and who 

they couldn't send money to, in general terms. 

Answer, "yes." 

Question, "All right. And OFAC made a determination at 

some point in time that they weren't going to decide who they 

could send money to and who they couldn't. Correct?"

Answer, "At the time of that meeting we did not have 

other than those parties who had about [sic] named by the 

President and by OFAC's own actions."

Those were questions and answers that were asked and 

given at that testimony. Correct? 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you were asked on page 719 line 2, question, 

picking up in the middle of the question, "Did you or OFAC, 

the agency, Treasury rather, who was the representative at 

that meeting, indicate to them that you were not -- you the 

agency was not going to make a determination for them as to 

who they could or couldn't send money to, period." 

Answer, "Beyond those already listed, correct." 

Question. "Right. Obviously the ones listed were the 

ones that had been designated." 

Answer, "Right. That is my point." 

That was your testimony. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

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Q. Now, sir, how long did this February 1995 meeting last?

A. I actually don't recall. Normally a meeting of that sort 

would last an hour, roughly an hour.

Q. Roughly an hour? And there were some fairly senior OFAC 

officials there. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In fact, the top man, among others. 

A. Correct. The director, yes.

Q. And some representatives from the Arab-American 

community, Mr. Elashi for example, traveled some distance?

A. I really don't know where they all came from, but yes.

Q. All right. A number of representatives, from what you 

understood, to be leading Arab-American institutions. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, I take it, sir, that you have searched for any kind 

of notes or records of this meeting. Is that right?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And other than this handwritten sign-in sheet that has 

been introduced as InfoCom Search No. 55, you have not found 

anything. Right?

A. No, sir, including the original of that.

Q. Even this was found at InfoCom not in the Treasury 

Department files. Correct?

A. Correct, sir.

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Q. Now, you knew -- This is your signature on this document?

A. Oh, yes. That is my printing, yes, my name.

Q. No doubt that this is an authentic record?

A. No doubt it was authentic.

Q. I am sorry?

A. There is no doubt that is authentic.

Q. Apart from this document, which you say you didn't find, 

there is not a single scrap of paper anywhere in the 

Department of Treasury reflecting what went on at this 

meeting. 

A. We have not located any.

Q. By the way, in that meeting -- I think you testified on 

direct that in that meeting you directed the attendees or 

referred them to the statement released by the White House on 

January 24th, 1995 relating to Executive Order 12947. 

Correct?

A. I believe that is correct, yes.

MR. CLINE: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) Sir, I am showing you what has been 

marked as OFAC No. 4, and I ask you to look at that, and let 

me know if that is the thing you referred the attendees to. 

A. Yes. I do not know whether we actually handed it to them 

or whether we simply used it as a reference.

Q. All right.

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A. It could have been handed out. It is a White House press 

release.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I offer -- It is marked as a 

Government Exhibit No. OFAC 4. Even though I am a defendant, 

I will offer into evidence.

MS. SHAPIRO: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) Now, I am not going to have you read this 

whole thing, I know you will be glad to know, but will you 

read the sentence beginning -- 

A. "It is also intended"?

Q. If you would read that one sentence. 

A. "It is also intended to reach charitable contributions to 

designated organizations to preclude diversion of such 

donations to terrorist activities. These measures are being 

taken under the authority of the International Emergency 

Economic Powers Act." 

Q. That is fine. And then I want to turn the page the 

second page. This is something called a fact sheet. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. And I want to call your attention down at the 

bottom of the page and have you read that last item on the 

bottom of the page?

A. "These measures are also intended to preclude diversion 

of charitable contributions to fund terrorism activities by 

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prohibiting the transfer of funds by U.S. persons to these 

groups."

Q. And these groups there is referring to the groups that 

have been designated under Executive Order 12947. Correct?

A. Yes, sir, the groups on the annex.

Q. Yes. I am going to change the subject again. I want to 

talk with you now about the voluntary antiterrorist financing 

guidelines this you testified about on direct. Are you with 

me?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. I want to discuss a couple of different 

things about those guidelines. The first one is this. The 

Treasury Department issued the first version of those 

guidelines in November of 2002. Correct?

A. To the best of my understanding, yes, sir.

Q. Well, let me show you something that may refresh your 

recollection. I am going to put up Government's Exhibit OFAC 

No. 3, which is already in evidence, and have you take a look 

at footnote No. 1, which it is on the screen there if that 

helps. It is a little hard to read, but do you see this 

document is a revised version of the original antiterrorist 

financing guidelines voluntary best practices for U.S. based 

charities released by the U.S. department of the treasury in 

November 2002? Do you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

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Q. And does that refresh your recollection that the initial 

version of these guidelines came out in November 2002?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Now, the Holy Land Foundation closed in December 2001. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So these guidelines that you testified about on direct, 

the first version of those came out almost a year after HLF 

closed. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And during the entire period from January 23rd, 1995 when 

Hamas was designated until December 2001 when HLF closed, 

there were no antiterrorist financing guidelines voluntary 

best practices issued by the Department of the Treasury. 

Correct?

A. Not that I am aware of, sir.

Q. And if they existed, you would have been aware of them. 

Right?

A. I would hope.

Q. I would, too. Now, when the guidelines first came out in 

November of 2002 -- Let me back up. Did you have any part in 

devising these guidelines?

A. Very little.

Q. Did you see drafts and stuff as they --

A. I saw an occasional draft.

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Q. All right. You knew they were being developed, in other 

words. 

A. Yes.

Q. And you had some peripheral input. Is that fair?

A. Yes.

Q. So when they first came out in November 2002, they came 

in for a fair amount of criticism. Is that right?

A. I actually don't recall if they came in for criticism or 

just comment.

Q. Let's call it comment. There were thoughts that they 

perhaps should be different in certain ways. Correct?

A. I am assuming now, sir, because I was not involved in the 

process of receiving the comments on them or reviewing the 

comments.

Q. I don't want you to assume. The Treasury Department 

hosted what it called an initial outreach in April of 2004 to 

discuss the comments from people in the charitable sector 

about these guidelines. Correct?

A. I honestly don't know, sir.

Q. All right. Let me see if I can show you something that 

may jog your memory. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Objection, Your Honor. He did not say 

that he did not remember this. He said he didn't know.

THE COURT: You may show it to him and see what that 

does. Go ahead. 

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MR. CLINE: May I approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) Take a look at the bottom of the page 

there and tell me if that refreshes your recollection. 

A. Actually I have to tell you that it doesn't refresh my 

recollection.

Q. That is fine. 

A. I don't deny the fact. It is a Federal Register, and 

that is a copy.

Q. That is fine. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I had not intended to admit 

this, but I think I would like to offer it now. Let me give 

Ms. Shapiro a copy. 

Your Honor, I am going to offer this as Defense Exhibit 

No. 1402, and I will have it marked appropriately and present 

it to the Court.

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. SHAPIRO: No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

MR. CLINE: May I approach?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) I am going to hand you now what is in 

evidence as Defense Exhibit No. 1402.

A. Thank you.

Q. And I am just going to let you keep that because I will 

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be referring to it from time to time. 

A. Yes, sir.

MR. CLINE: And actually as long as I am at it here, 

I am going to offer No. 1403 as well, because they are sort of 

complementary. 

MS. SHAPIRO: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. CLINE: May I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) To make it easy, I am just going to write 

the exhibit numbers on these and we will formalize it later. 

Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. All right. So let's go back to where we were. When the 

guidelines first came out in November of 2002, they came in 

for a certain amount of criticism. Correct? Or comment?

A. Right.

Q. And the Treasury Department hosted what it called an 

initial outreach. And I am just referring you now to the 

bottom of page 1 of Defendants' Exhibit No. 1402.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you see where it says, "After receiving numerous 

comments from the sector" -- And that is referring to the 

charitable sector. Correct?

A. I believe so.

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Q. "...regarding these guidelines, Treasury hosted an 

initial outreach event in April 2004, at which time Secretary 

Snow committed that Treasury would continue to work with the 

Sector to amend and revise the guidelines to improve their 

utility for the sector in protecting against terrorist abuse." 

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. You see the term initial outreach there. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And initial, in general parlance, means first. Right?

A. First.

Q. So this was an initial, a first outreach by the Treasury 

Department to the charitable sector to discuss these 

guidelines. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, and I think it is obvious from what you said before, 

but let me just make sure, you were not at that meeting?

A. No, I was not, sir.

Q. Now, the Treasury Department issued a revised set of 

guidelines for comment in December of 2005. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And if you look at Defendants' Exhibit No. 1403, does 

that appear to you to be the revised guidelines being issued 

publicly for comment?

A. I am looking at my copy here. To the best of my 

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recollection, yes, sir.

Q. So in December 2005 this revised best practices is 

issued, published in the Federal Register the way a document 

like this is supposed to be published. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then there were additional comments about this 

version. Correct?

A. That is my understanding, yes.

Q. And in fact if you look at Defendants' Exhibit No. 1402, 

you will see that the first several pages of that document is 

addressing various comments that have been received on that 

December 2005 set of guidelines. Do you see that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And some of those comments the Treasury Department agreed 

with and some it didn't agree with. Right? I just mean in 

general. 

A. I would have to say apparently so, but I have not read 

this document.

Q. All right. And then on October 31st, 2006, and this is 

Defendants' Exhibit No. 1402, the Treasury Department issued 

the current set of guidelines, the ones that you were working 

from. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And those were issued October 31st, 2006. Right?

A. That is what the document reflects, sir.

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Q. Now, this is almost five years now after Holy Land 

closed. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it indicates that they were published on Treasury's 

website on September 29th, 2006. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, there is one particular comment and this is in 

evidence that I just want to quickly touch on. If you look on 

page 6 of Defendants' Exhibit No. 1403. 

A. No. 1403? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. If you look at the top, now, these are the December 2005 

version of the guidelines. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. And if you look up at the top under (B)(1) 

where my finger is.

A. Yes.

Q. The recommendation there is that "The charity should 

conduct a reasonable search of public information, including 

information available via the internet, to determine whether 

the recipient is suspected of activity relating to 

terrorism." And so on and so on. Do you see that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, that recommendation drew some criticism. And to 

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show you that, let me refer you to Defendants' Exhibit 

No. 1402 at page 5. See where my finger is there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It says, "Many commenters objected to the inclusion of 

the publicly available information 'including the internet' as 

a means to vet grantees or employees. They argued that 

internet searches would yield widely varying and unverified 

searches of organizations or individuals."

A. I see that, yes.

Q. And the Treasury Department, if you turn over to page 6, 

agreed with the criticism. Correct?

A. With respect to the internet, yes.

Q. It says, "We agree with commenters that the internet 

often provides information that may be false or unverified." 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And for that reason the specific reference "to the 

internet" was removed, although Treasury still recommended 

people use publicly available information. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, I want to talk a little bit about the significance 

of these guidelines. And I guess the first thing I want to 

ask you is, these are voluntary. Correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. So the failure to follow the guidelines does not by 

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itself violate any law. Correct?

A. That is correct. The guidelines say that.

Q. In fact, footnote 1 of the guidelines says, 

"Non-adherence to these guidelines in and of itself does not 

constitute a violation of existing U.S. law." Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. On the other side of the page, following the guidelines 

doesn't mean that you are not violating the law. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. And let me show you the relevant portion of these 2006 

guidelines. Still in that footnote beginning where it says, 

"Conversely," it says, "Conversely, adherence to these 

guidelines does not excuse any person individual or entity 

from compliance with any local, state, or federal law or 

regulation, nor does it release any person from or constitute 

a legal defense against any civil or criminal liability for 

violating any such law or regulation." Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it actually goes on even from there. Correct?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. So to sum up the effect of those two notions, you don't 

have to follow the guidelines, and if you do you can still be 

prosecuted. 

A. If you are violative, yes.

Q. Now, these October 2006 guidelines, the ones that you 

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were reading from -- 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. -- refers at several points to the Treasury Department 

specially designated nationals list. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it, for example, recommends that the charity assure 

itself that its grantees do not appear on that list. Correct?

A. I believe that is correct, sir.

Q. Let me just show you the language. It is up there at the 

top of the page, right up here. 

A. Yes.

Q. "The charity should assure itself that grantees do not 

appear on OFAC's master list of specially designated 

nationals," et cetera. 

A. "...and are not otherwise subject to OFAC sanctions."

Q. "...and are not otherwise subject to OFAC sanctions." 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, the guidelines also recommend, and this is in 

footnote 11, that charities check something called the 

terrorist exclusion list. You are familiar with that. 

A. Yes.

Q. And the terrorist exclusion list, otherwise known as the 

TEL, is a list created under a law which allows the U.S. 

government to exclude or deport aliens who provide material 

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assistance to designated TEL organizations. Right?

A. I don't have sufficient familiarity beyond what is in the 

document here to tell you that.

Q. Are you not familiar with the TEL list?

A. I am familiar with it only in the most general sense. We 

don't use the TEL list per se for our purposes. That is not 

an OFAC document.

Q. It is a State Department document?

A. It is a State Department document.

Q. Do you know whether Hamas is on the TEL list?

A. No, I don't know.

Q. Okay. Did you know -- You don't know anything about that 

list other than State Department maintains it.

A. Very little.

Q. Now, you testified on direct examination about a sentence 

in footnote 11 on page 10 of these 2006 guidelines. Do you 

see that first sentence?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. It says, "List-checking alone as described throughout 

this section does not guarantee the safe and secure delivery 

of charitable funds and services in high risk areas." 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then it goes on to encourage charities to employ 

other available resources, et cetera. Correct?

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A. Yes.

Q. Now, that sentence that you read in your direct testimony 

that was pointed out, that does not appear in the December 

2005 version of these guidelines, does it?

A. I would have to check back on them to know that, sir.

Q. All right. Why don't you take a look at Defendants' 

Exhibit No. 1403, which is in evidence, and I would refer you 

to page 6 of footnote 7 which is the footnote in the December 

2005 version of the guidelines that refers to the TEL and 

seems to correspond with footnote 11 of the 2006 guidelines. 

A. Yes, I have read that, sir.

Q. All right. Do you see that sentence, "List-checking 

alone does not guarantee the safe and secure delivery," and so 

forth?

A. No, I do not.

Q. And is it fair to assume, then, that that sentence was 

added somewhere between the December 2005 and the October 2006 

version of these guidelines?

A. I think that is a fair assumption, yes.

Q. All right. Now, you also read on your direct testimony 

from footnote 13 of the October 2006 guidelines on page 11. 

And in particular, you read some language that appears around 

the middle of that footnote, which I will read here. 

It says, "Although the SDN list includes persons meeting 

the criteria established in the authorities or executive 

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orders that define certain OFAC sanctions programs, 

transactions with actors not named on the SDN list may 

nevertheless violate U.S. sanctions due to interests of 

designated parties in such transactions or prohibitions owing 

to country-based OFAC administered sanctions programs. For 

example, if a charity engages in a particular transaction with 

a party not on the SDN list that involves the property or 

interests in property of a designated actor, the transaction 

may be subject to OFAC sanctions." 

Do you see that language? 

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you recall reading that language on direct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That language, in fact that entire footnote did not 

appear in the December 2005 version of these guidelines. 

Correct?

A. I don't recall that from the looking that I have done 

here today.

Q. Why don't you take a moment and take a look at 

Defendants' Exhibit No. 1403. I refer you generally to pages 

6 and 7, and see if you see that language or footnote 13 

generally in that version. 

A. I do not see that paragraph.

Q. All right. So again, is it fair to assume that that 

footnote 13 was added between the December 2005 and the 

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October 2006 versions of these guidelines?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So let me back up a second and just run through a quick 

timeline with you, sir. HLF closed in December 2001. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. The first version of these guidelines appeared in 

November 2002. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The indictment in this case occurred in July of 2004. 

Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The revised guidelines appeared in December 2005 without 

that language that you read on direct to the jury. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. The amended guidelines with that language appeared in 

December 2006. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you read it to the jury here in October 2008. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar with something called the risk matrix 

that OFAC has published on its website?

A. Yes.

Q. And the risk matrix is a set of factors for members of 

the charitable sector to consider when they are contemplating 

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charitable contributions. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was published in March of 2007. Correct?

A. I believe that is the correct date. I don't have it with 

me to double check.

Q. We don't have to nail it down to the day or month, but 

does 2007 sound right?

A. Yes.

Q. A number of years after the Holy Land Foundation closed. 

Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the factors that the risk matrix recommends -- By the 

way, the risk matrix, like these guidelines, is voluntary. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. It doesn't violate any law not to consider these factors 

in making a donation. Right?

A. No. It just puts you on a risk.

Q. Well, the matrix is designed to permit a charity to 

assess the risk associated with a contribution. Right?

A. Right. It is a guideline to help avoid risk.

Q. Right. It is not a legal requirement.

A. Correct.

Q. And the factors include things like whether the grantee 

has explicit charitable purposes. Right?

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whether the grantee discloses how the funds are used with 

specificity. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whether the grantee has a history of legitimate 

charitable activities. Right?

A. Yes, sir. I find it a bit difficult without the document 

to refer to.

MR. CLINE: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) Again, it is not my intention to 

introduce this into evidence, although let's try refreshing 

your recollection. 

A. I have seen these before. I just don't have them 

memorized.

Q. Sure. I am just running through a few of the factors. I 

don't mean to suggest I am covering them all. I am hitting a 

few of them.

A. I understand.

Q. Whether the grantee has a history of legitimate 

charitable activities. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Whether the grantee has an existing relationship with the 

charity. Right?

A. I am now lost as to --

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Q. We don't need to go through them all. I just wanted to 

give the flavor of some of these factors. That is the kind of 

thing that is in there that charities are recommended to 

consider in deciding whether to make a donation. Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this risk matrix, again, like the guidelines, wasn't 

available to charities at any time between January 23rd, 1995 

when Hamas was designated and December 2001 when Holy Land 

closed. Correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. Now, you can put that aside. 

You testified, at least I thought I understood you to 

testify, that the designation of an entity such as Hamas 

encompasses its component parts. Is that a fair statement of 

your view.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And I think you also testified that OFAC generally does 

not designate separately component parts. Correct?

A. We don't generally designate all component parts of an 

organization. It varies by program. Some programs have a 

much greater capability of doing that and it has a different 

effect because of the nature of the target.

Q. All right.

A. In something as comprehensive as terrorist organizations 

designating all the component parts is not necessarily the 

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best use of our resources, and as I testified earlier, there 

are other factors that come into play such as diplomatic 

concerns and law enforcement intelligence activity concerns.

Q. I recall that testimony. 

Now, I want to discuss these matters in connection with 

Hamas. OFAC considers -- You are familiar with an 

organization called Interpal. Correct.

A. Yes.

Q. And OFAC considers Interpal to be controlled by Hamas. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Interpal is an organization located in the United 

Kingdom?

A. Yes.

Q. And Interpal was separately designated by OFAC in 2003. 

Correct?

A. I don't recall the precise year, but yes, Interpal was 

designated by OFAC.

Q. I can show you if you want, but will you take my word 

that it was 2003?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. OFAC considers an organization called -- you 

have heard an organization called CBSP?

A. The initials don't ring a bell for me, sir.

Q. Let me tell you what I am going to do. 

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MR. CLINE: May I approach? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) I am going to hand you what is in 

evidence as Government's Exhibit Designation No. 1, and just 

use that to refresh your recollection as I ask you about these 

things. Okay? 

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Now, I asked you about Interpal, and you see Interpal on 

that document. By the way, that document is an OFAC blocking 

memorandum. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is the document that results from the 

designation of an entity as a specially designated terrorist, 

or in this case a specially designated global terrorist. 

Right?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. So back to CBSP, do you see that on there?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. It is an organization located in France. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And OFAC considers it to be controlled by Hamas. Right?

A. Controlled or acting for or on behalf of, I believe.

Q. And that is the language from the executive order. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

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Q. If I say controlled, can we use that as a short form for 

that whole formulation?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And CBSP was separately designated in 2003. 

Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you see Mr. Newcomb's signature on that?

A. No, that is not Mr. Newcomb's signature.

Q. Mr. Newcomb's name?

A. Mr. Newcomb's name is not on the document.

Q. Really? 

MR. CLINE: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. CLINE: My memory is failing me. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) You are right. It is David Aufhauser 

General Counsel, Department of Treasury. In any event, it has 

a Treasury official's name on there. 

A. That is correct, yes, sir.

Q. You are familiar wan organization called Sanabil. 

Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it is an organization located in Lebanon?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And OFAC considers Sanabil to be controlled by Hamas. 

Right?

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A. Yes.

Q. And Sanabil was separately designated in 2003. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You are familiar with an organization called the 

Palestinian Association of Austria, also known as PVOE. 

Right?

A. Yes.

Q. That is an organization located in Austria?

A. Yes.

Q. OFAC considers PVOE to be controlled by Hamas?

A. Correct, sir.

Q. And PVOE was separately designated in 2003. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You are familiar with an organization called I am going 

to butcher the pronunciation here, the Association de Secours 

Palestinian. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. An organization located in Switzerland?

A. Correct.

Q. OFAC considers it to be controlled by Hamas. 

A. Correct.

Q. And it was separately designated in 2003. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are familiar with an organization called the al-Aqsa 

Foundation?

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A. Yes.

Q. It is an organization in Germany and other countries. 

Right?

A. Yes.

Q. OFAC considers al-Aqsa to be controlled by Hamas. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And al-Aqsa was separately designated in 2003. Correct?

A. It wasn't on this document, but yes, I know it was 

separately designated.

Q. You know it was separately designated. Okay. We have 

talked about the al-Salah Society. Correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is a charitable society in the Gaza Strip. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And OFAC considers al-Salah to be controlled by Hamas. 

Right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it was separately designated in August of 2007. 

Right?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know who Sheikh Yassin is?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Founder of Hamas. Yes?

A. Yes.

Q. And he was separately designated twice, first as an SDT 

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by OFAC right after Executive Order 12947 and later as an SDGT 

under Executive Order 13224. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you know who Mousa Abu Marzook is?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. He is a Hamas leader. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. He was separately designated twice by OFAC. Right?

A. That is correct, too.

Q. You know who Khalid Mishal is. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. He is a Hamas leader. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Separately designated by OFAC?

A. Correct.

Q. Imad al-Alami Usama Hamdan Aziz Rantisi, either are or 

were Hamas figures?

A. Yes.

Q. All separately designated?

A. Yes.

Q. Ahmad al-Kurd?

A. Yes.

Q. He is the head of the al-Salah Society He is separately 

designated. Right?

A. Yes.

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Q. Now, you know the zakat committees that are named in the 

indictment in this case. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. You are familiar with them?

A. I am familiar from having read the indictment. 

Q. The Qalqilya zakat committe, the Tulkarem zakat 

committee, the Jenin zakat committee, does that all sound 

familiar to you?

A. These names are familiar.

Q. None of those zakat committees has been separately 

designated. Correct?

A. Not at this time, no, sir.

Q. And none of the officers or board members of any of those 

zakat committees has been separately designated. Correct?

A. Without -- I don't know whether we have designated one of 

them in some other capacity dealing with Hamas or not.

Q. You don't know? Is that the short answer?

A. That is my short answer.

Q. All right. 

MR. CLINE: That is all my questions. Thank you, 

sir. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

THE COURT: Any other counsel have cross? 

Ms. Hollander? 

MS. HOLLANDER: No cross.

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MR. WESTFALL: No.

MR. DRATEL: No. 

THE COURT: Ms. Cadeddu? 

MS. CADEDDU: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Ms. Shapiro, any redirect? 

MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, Your Honor. May we approach for 

a moment?

THE COURT: Yes. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MS. SHAPIRO: I think Mr. Cline has opened the door 

wide open at this juncture that I have to get into the 

designation of HLF. The reason for that is because he has 

pointed out that the organizations that he just denoted 

Interpal, CBSP, al-Aqsa are all designated. Those 

organizations are umbrella organizations. They are charities, 

just like the Holy Land Foundation, that exist in England, 

Germany, Austria, France. They are umbrella organizations 

that give money to the same zakat committees that Holy Land 

gives to. 

By pointing out that all of those organizations are 

designated, he has created a false impression because Holy 

Land was also designated, and we need at this juncture to 

bring out that Holy Land was also designated.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I did that same cross with 

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Doctor Levitt and I heard no door opening argument then. But 

I would add that the point is not that Holy Land is or isn't 

designated. We will never make an argument one way or the 

other on that. 

The point is he testified that when you designate Hamas 

you designate all of its component entities, and I pointed out 

by my cross that in fact OFAC designated a whole slew of 

component entities or entities that it views as component 

entities. So this argument "We designate the big group and 

that takes care of all the components" is not true. They do 

designate components and they designate individuals. That was 

the only point of that argument. 

And we are never going to make from that argument, we 

will never argue that Holy Land is or isn't on the list, that 

there is any inference to be drawn from that. It just won't 

be made.

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, his testimony was that 

they designate the umbrella organizations. Holy Land is an 

umbrella organizations, like these other organizations he just 

named. 

MR. CLINE: He doesn't know anything about those 

other organizations except they are controlled by Hamas and 

got designated.

MS. SHAPIRO: But now they know they are designated 

and Holy Land is missing from that picture. He is trying to 

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make Mr. McBrien look inconsistent in his testimony, but in 

fact the truth is that they designate the umbrella 

organizations of which -- These organizations were umbrella 

organizations, as was Holy Land, and we want to bring out that 

those organizations Mr. Cline just named give money to the 

same zakat committees that are at issue in this case and they 

were designated just as Holy Land Foundation was designated 

for giving money to these same zakat committees. None of 

these zakat committees are designated, but they don't need to 

be. That is consistent with his testimony.

MR. JONAS: The impression that is left is if you 

are not designated you are not part of Hamas, and that is just 

not the case. 

MR. CLINE: This has nothing to do with Holy Land, 

the cross doesn't and the argument doesn't. It has to do with 

whether those individual zakat committees needed to be 

designated at the time as a matter of notice, if nothing else, 

to the Defendants. The designation was -- There has been 

evidence in this case the Defendants, the Baker Wiretap No. 

11, for example, played this morning that the Defendants are 

looking to the list to tell them what is legal and what isn't, 

and none of those individual zakat committees was put on the 

list. None is on the list today. That is the point. And 

their response to that point this morning was "you don't have 

to put them on the list. They are automatically on the list, 

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because Hamas is designated." 

My cross was designed to show that that is not true, that 

in fact OFAC goes to great lengths to designate a whole slew 

of component individuals and so on, and it was designed simply 

to rebut his testimony that once you designate Hamas it has 

taken care of all the zakat committees.

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, if his cross was limited 

to the equivalent component entities we are talking about, 

like zakat committees or like the al-Salah Society then that 

would be fine and I wouldn't need to go into it. But when we 

are talking about the greater umbrella organizations, that 

OFAC has designated Holy Land is among those and you can't 

leave that out of the picture. You have an absolute 

misimpression for the jury. 

THE COURT: I think I have heard enough. I just 

don't know what the decision is. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Putting in the Holy Land designation 

would be like putting in a criminal complaint.

MS. SHAPIRO: Then he shouldn't have brought it up.

MS. HOLLANDER: One has nothing to do with the 

other. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Well, he has said he has heard enough.

THE COURT: What else do you have on redirect? Are 

you planning on getting into anything else on redirect? 

MS. SHAPIRO: I have some questions that I can do. 

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It is not terribly extensive, ten minutes or less. 

THE COURT: I am going to keep that out at this 

point. I still don't think that -- I mean, I agree with what 

point you were trying to make. I don't think you have to go 

into that, and I don't think that undermines your argument in 

terms of what you are trying to do. And Holy Land, I don't 

think that changes that one way or another, because the zakat 

committees are different.

MS. SHAPIRO: Can I point out that I would like to 

be able to go into the fact that these organizations are 

umbrella organizations and that they give to the same zakat 

committees that Holy Land gives to? I think that is fair, 

because he is trying to make an equivalency between the zakat 

committee level and the umbrella -- 

MR. CLINE: If that is the extent of the point that 

Ms. Shapiro wants to make, they are umbrella organizations and 

they gave to some of the same zakat committees, and that is as 

far as it goes, I don't have an objection to that.

THE COURT: I guess part of the problem is, I am not 

familiar with all these groups and so I don't know that the 

jury is either. These distinctions you were making, I wasn't 

making them. The jury sure isn't making them.

MS. SHAPIRO: That is part of the problem, Your 

Honor, is they are not making the distinction --

THE COURT: That is why it doesn't make any 

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difference. That is why I am saying I don't know that it 

makes a difference, the distinction you are making. I am 

hearing this for the first time, and a lot of these groups, 

some of them I recognize, but most of them I didn't, the CVOE 

and the CBSP --

MR. CLINE: You have never heard of those.

THE COURT: I haven't. 

.

THE COURT: I know they have been designated, but I 

don't know what their equivalency is because I don't know 

anything about them, so I don't know how they compare to HLF 

versus zakat.

MS. SHAPIRO: To a certain extent it goes to the 

subject of the next expert witness, but the idea is, just for 

Your Honor's background, if you recall the Elbarasse documents 

talk about Palestine committees and setting them up all around 

the world. Holy Land was one of them. But they were set up 

in all different countries in Europe, so these organizations, 

Interpal, al-Aqsa PVO, they are other organizations and they 

all sent money into the territories in the same way. They 

raised money in the same way.

THE COURT: And that is what you are going to go 

into with Doctor Hoffman? 

MR. CLINE: Avi.

MS. SHAPIRO: Avi. But probably not very 

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extensively, because they are sort of extraneous to a certain 

extent. But Mr. Cline is creating an equivalency between the 

zakat committees and those higher echelon organizations.

THE COURT: Why don't you just point out that -- 

MS. SHAPIRO: That is what I intend to do.

MR. CLINE: I think that is fine.

THE COURT: Rather than getting into more of the 

designation. That is not the same thing. Let's go with that. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Ms. Shapiro: 

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. McBrien. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. I have just a few additional questions for you. 

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Mr. Cline started, or somewhat early on he read to you 

some testimony by you in another proceeding. Do you remember 

that?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. That was a different matter. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And what you said in that proceeding was true. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay.

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MR. WESTFALL: Objection; leading, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to rephrase your 

question, counsel?

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) And was everything that you testified 

to this morning consistent with what you said in that earlier 

proceeding?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. Okay. Now, I think Mr. Cline also talked about that you 

did not give Mr. Elashi, and the others who were with him at 

that meeting, you did not give him a list of organizations to 

which it was okay to give to. Is that more or less 

paraphrasing?

A. That is correct. 

MS. CADEDDU: I object to leading, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase that question? 

MS. SHAPIRO: Sure.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) With respect to your advice to Mr. 

Elashi and the others that were with him during that meeting, 

did you provide those participants with any sort of a list of 

organizations that were okay to give to?

A. No, we did not.

Q. Okay. 

A. We did not provide what we call a white list.

Q. I was going to ask you if you know what a white list 

means. 

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A. Yes.

Q. What is a white list?

A. A white list is essentially a list of organizations that 

has been, in essence, authorized or cleansed by the U.S. 

government so someone can deal with it without fear that they 

are going to be in violation of the sanctions prohibitions.

Q. Does the Treasury Department ever -- does it have a white 

list? Has it ever had a white list?

A. It has not had a white list in this context at all.

Q. And why not?

A. It is very difficult to create a white list. It makes 

the entities on the white list themselves, they may become the 

subject of attempts to subvert their good purposes and turn 

them, willingly or unwittingly, into channels of prohibited 

transfers. 

Plus, it requires that we know at the time such a list 

goes out that all the participants in the list are not 

otherwise involved in illicit activity, and that is a very, 

very difficult thing to know.

Q. So it is basically, is it fair to say, that the good seal 

of approval of Housekeeping, or what have you, Treasury 

doesn't provide that for any --

A. That is not our business. Our business is to identify 

prohibited parties insofar as we can and within an overall 

strategy.

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Q. And whose responsibility is it to determine whether the 

recipient organization is connected to a designated 

organization, one that appears on the specially designated 

terrorist list?

A. That would be our mission, along with the mission of 

other investigative agencies.

Q. I didn't phrase that question well. If you are a donor 

or somebody that wants to give money, I mean, whose 

responsibility is it to make sure that the organization that 

is the recipient of the money is not connected to a listed 

organization?

MR. DRATEL: Objection to the form of the question, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: It is in the first instance the 

donor's responsibility. We have tried to provide assistance 

through such things as the guidelines, and of course we have 

the specially designated nationals list which is another 

simple way of having an idea of who you can and cannot deal 

with. But as I have said, it is not exhaustive. It is not 

exclusive. It increases over time.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Okay. So the list alone -- Is the list 

alone enough to verify or know that the money that you are 

giving to the organization that you are giving to is not 

connected to a listed organization?

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A. No, it is not.

Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Cline pointed out the press statement and 

talking points that came out with Executive Order 12947. 

Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. And I think he read to you the sentence, "These measures 

are also intended to preclude diversion of charitable 

contributions to fund terrorism activities by prohibiting the 

transfer of funds by U.S. persons to these groups."

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall that?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Okay. And in that executive order, when this refers to 

"these groups," it is referring to the organizations that are 

listed. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And is Hamas listed -- 

A. Yes.

Q. -- in that executive order as designated?

A. Yes.

Q. And that would include all parts of Hamas. Correct?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection; leading.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Would that include all parts of Hamas?

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A. Yes.

Q. Now, Mr. Cline spent a good deal of time going over the 

best practices document. Do you remember that document?

A. Yes.

Q. And he took you through a timetable. 

A. Yes.

Q. And he pointed out that those guidelines -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Objection; leading. 

MS. SHAPIRO: I am just summarizing.

THE COURT: She is summarizing what Mr. Cline asked. 

Go ahead.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) He pointed out those guidelines were 

first issued in 2002. Do you remember those questions?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. I am just going to put up those guidelines for moment on 

the elmo. This is OFAC No. 3. Do you see the highlighted 

portion?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And do you remember we read this and we talked about that 

on direct? 

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Can you read that again, that sentence, please?

A. "These guidelines are designed to assist charities that 

attempt in good faith to protect themselves from terrorist 

abuse and are not intended to address the problem of 

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organizations that use the cover of charitable work, whether 

real or perceived, to provide support to terrorist groups or 

fronts operating on behalf of terrorist groups."

Q. Do these guidelines have any relevance to organizations 

that are attempting to circumvent the law by giving to a 

designated organization through a front organization?

A. They are relevant that for those which are not good faith 

organizations the guidelines don't count. If someone is 

trying to evade us, the guidelines aren't going to matter to 

them.

Q. So if someone knows that an organization is connected to 

a listed organization--and I mean listed on the specially 

designated terrorist list or the specially designated national 

list, the bigger list--if somebody knows that, does it matter 

whether or not the organization that you are giving money to 

is on the list?

A. No.

MR. DRATEL: Objection; calls for a legal conclusion 

and misstates the law.

THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) What was your answer?

A. The answer is no.

Q. And was that true prior to the date that these guidelines 

issued?

A. Yes. That has been true from the time the order was 

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issued.

Q. And does the executive order itself address that issue?

A. Yes.

Q. Where in the executive order? Let me put up -- This is 

InfoCom Search No. 37. I think Mr. Cline pointed you to this. 

Look again at the highlighted portion of subsection (b). 

A. I have lost the right margin here.

Q. Sorry. 

A. There we go.

Q. Can you read that? 

A. Yes, ma'am. "Any transaction or dealing by United States 

persons or within the United States, in property or interests 

in property, of the persons designated in or pursuant to this 

order is prohibited, including the making or receiving of any 

contribution of funds, goods, or services to or for the 

benefit of such persons." 

Q. So as of the date of this executive order, which was what 

date again?

A. January 24th was its effective date, 1995.

Q. Was it prohibited to give money to any organization that 

acted for or to the benefit of a listed organization?

A. Yes. It was illegal.

Q. And that is as of 1995?

A. As of 1995.

Q. Now, Mr. Cline went through a series of organizations and 

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asked you if they were separately designated. Do you recall 

that?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And he listed organizations such as Interpal. Correct?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. You are familiar with Interpal?

A. Generally, yes.

Q. And he also mentioned the al-Aqsa Foundation?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar with that organization?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. And he mentioned CBSP. 

A. Which I did not recognize immediately, but when I saw it 

in the document I certainly recognized it.

Q. That is in France. Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you familiar with that organization?

A. Yes.

Q. And he mentioned Sanabil?

A. Yes.

Q. And I think he might have mentioned PVOE or another 

organization in Austria. 

A. Yes, he did.

Q. On direct we talked about umbrella organizations. Do you 

recall that?

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A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. Does OFAC designate, prefer to designate umbrella 

organizations?

A. Yes, it is part of our overall strategy is to try to, as 

I say, get the most bang for the buck--that is, to capture by 

our designation those organizations or possibly individuals 

who play the most key role and have the most pieces under 

them, so that by impeding and prohibiting transactions with 

that particular sector, we cut off the greatest flow of money 

at one point.

Q. Okay. And these organizations that I listed for you a 

moment ago, Interpal, al-Aqsa, CBSP, are those umbrella like 

organizations?

A. To the best of my understanding, yes.

Q. And do you know where they send their money, those 

organizations?

A. The money, to the best of my recollection, the money goes 

to the West Bank or Gaza.

Q. And does it go to zakat committees in the West Bank and 

Gaza?

MR. CLINE: Object to the leading and also lack of 

personal knowledge. 

THE COURT: Do you want to rephrase your question? 

Sustained on leading.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Where does the money go in the West 

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Bank and Gaza, to the best of your knowledge, generally?

A. It generally goes through zakat committees.

Q. And those zakat committees are not separately designated?

A. No, they are not, with one exception.

Q. Which one is that?

A. al-Salah.

Q. So al-Salah is an exception, and we talked about that 

exception?

A. Yes, ma'am.

Q. But these other organizations, the European organizations 

that Mr. Cline mentioned, are those the same thing as the 

zakat committees, or are those of a different nature?

A. They are a different nature. Again, they are the 

external more umbrella like organizations that accumulate 

funds or fundraisers external to Gaza and the West Bank, pull 

the funds together under charitable auspices, and then move 

them into the West Bank and Gaza.

Q. Okay. So let me ask you this. If you know that a zakat 

committee is connected to Hamas, if you know that -- 

MR. DRATEL: I am going to object, Your Honor, 

"connected to."

THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. Go ahead.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) You know that a zakat committee is 

connected to Hamas. 

A. Yes.

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Q. Can you give to that zakat committee simply because the 

zakat committee itself does not appear on the list of 

specially designated nationals?

A. No, you may not. It is prohibited.

Q. Okay. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Cline? 

MR. CLINE: Yes, please, Your Honor. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Cline: 

Q. Just a couple of things, Mr. McBrien. 

First those umbrella organizations that I asked you about and 

Ms. Shapiro asked you about, those were designated in 2003. 

Is that correct?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. The second thing, Ms. Shapiro in a number of her 

questions to you has used the phrase "connected to Hamas." Do 

you remember that phrase?

A. Yes.

Q. And I have been looking while she has been talking at 

Executive Order 12947 and also 595.408, that regulation, and I 

don't see that language. Does that come out of an executive 

order or regulation?

A. No, it does not. I think "connected to" in this instance 

is somewhat like when we use "controlled" during your initial 

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cross examination of me, kind of a generic term I believe that 

is what she indicated.

Q. All right. 

A. Was she meant here.

Q. It is a paraphrase, not the actual legal standard. 

A. The actual words are "owned or controlled by or acting 

for or on behalf of."

Q. Yes. You got it just right. 

MR. CLINE: Thank you, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Anything further? 

MS. SHAPIRO: May I ask one last question?

THE COURT: Yes. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Ms. Shapiro: 

Q. Does the legal language also contain the words "to the 

benefit of"?

A. Yes, ma'am.

MS. SHAPIRO: Thank you. 

THE COURT: Mr. Cline, anything else? 

Mr. McBrien you are free to go. You may step down. 

Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor. 

MR. JONAS: Before we resume with Agent Burns, can 

we have a quick sidebar? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

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(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, yesterday when we moved en 

masse all the exhibits, I wasn't -- 

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. JONAS: Let formally move to withdraw those, 

because I understand Ms. Moreno is going to have objection to 

the withdrawal of at least one of them.

THE COURT: Which one? 

MS. MORENO: It is Government's Exhibit No. HLF 

Search No. 110, Your Honor, is the only one that I have an 

objection.

THE COURT: You don't object to the others? 

MS. MORENO: No objection to any of the others, Your 

Honor. 

And if I may, it is a video, and it is a video that came 

in last year, and there was an additional part to that video 

that they did not include this year. What happened was they 

gave us the list, I prepared my cross examination thinking 

this was going to be included in their cross, and then Ms. 

Duncan approached Mr. Jonas and said we have a 106 issue on 

that one specific video. And then apparently what happened is 

Mr. Jonas said he was going to then withdraw the video. So I 

have an issue with that, Your Honor. 

So I would ask the Court to allow me to bring in the last 

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clip that is not included in the exhibit that they first 

admitted, you admitted, and then they tried to withdraw on the 

basis of 106. This is a video -- The part that I want is 

about four minutes long, and what I really want to do -- I 

don't even need to play the video. I am attempting to get 

just the text of the transcript and read it through Agent 

Burns. 

We did this during the first trial, so this is no 

surprise. So that is my basis for my request to the Court. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. JONAS: The fact this was done in the first 

trial doesn't mean it has to be done -- 

THE COURT: Well, tell me why you want to withdraw 

it.

MR. JONAS: We want to withdraw that exhibit because 

we didn't play it. I decided I didn't want to use it. We 

feel it is unnecessary to our case, and I think it is our 

prerogative as to what we admit and don't admit as evidence. 

If Ms. Moreno wants to put on a case and put on that 

exhibit through another witness, she is entitled to do that.

THE COURT: If it is in and she wants it as 106, 

would you object to the 106? 

MR. JONAS: Yes, because that goes to another issue. 

I think she needs to explain how the section she wants in 

explains the section we don't want to play. Just saying it is 

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106 doesn't cover it.

THE COURT: Of course I can't make that decision 

without reading your part of it and reading your part of it. 

So I can't make a ruling on it as to whether I will let you 

get in that 106 issue. 

Do you have a transcript? I am not going to take a break 

to do it. I will have to do it this afternoon.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, it just seems kind of 

fundamental that before 106 even comes into play, the first 

part, it has got to have something that it is explaining, 

rebutting, or putting into context, and there is nothing to 

explain, rebut, or put in context because it hasn't been shown 

to the jury. So that seems kind of --

THE COURT: It hasn't been shown to the jury, but it 

is in evidence. It doesn't have to be shown to the jury for 

it to be in evidence. It is in evidence. 

I haven't run across this too often. I am not sure what 

to do with that. So that is why I was jumping over to the 

106. Because whether it has been exhibited to the jury or 

not, that is not what determines whether it is in evidence. 

And I admitted them, so it is in evidence. 

So I will consider your request to withdraw it, but I 

will also consider your 106 in case it stays in. So if you 

can give me a copy of the transcript at some point and then 

your portion of it separately so I can know what it is that 

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you are trying to get in.

MS. MORENO: Right. And I would request -- The 

transcript is the transcript of the video of last year, 

because the excerpts of the video this year of course don't 

have the four-minute version at the end of the -- 

THE COURT: Just delineate where it starts.

MS. MORENO: We can do that.

MR. JONAS: I don't know if we have a transcript.

MS. MORENO: I have got the times.

THE COURT: Just get with her and make sure that is 

what we have.

MR. JONAS: If there is a transcript from the video 

last year, I certainly have it. 

MS. MORENO: Thank you, Your Honor. 

MR. CLINE: May I be excused following the break? 

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. CLINE: I want to thank the Government for 

calling Mr. McBrien.

THE COURT: All right. Okay. 

MS. SHAPIRO: May I also be excused, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes. 

MS. HOLLANDER: I don't know when we are going to 

get to my cross, but I will need for you to give me a ruling 

on the 302s on Jamil Hamami.

THE COURT: Remind me before you cross.

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MS. HOLLANDER: I am not the first one.

THE COURT: Who is up first? 

MS. MORENO: Mr. Westfall.

MS. HOLLANDER: It may not even be today. 

THE COURT: All right. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall?

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Agent Burns, you are under that oath 

administered when you first started testifying.

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Westfall: 

Q. Hello again, Agent Burns. 

A. Hi.

Q. I want to show you what is in evidence as Payments to 

Nablus Zakat. Do you recognize this as one of the schedules?

A. Yes.

Q. One of the payment schedules? And I know you went over 

it a little bit. I just want to go over it just a little bit 

more here and kind of -- That is the title on each one is 

payments to a certain zakat committee or organization. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then we go through a source of payment, the date, and 

they are all dates of the transaction. Right?

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A. That is correct.

Q. And then the source payment from, who authorized it, the 

amount, the destination of the payment, and then over here the 

label is on top of this, but that is the exhibits that you 

have relied on and that are supposed to be in evidence at this 

point. Right? That underlie each transaction? 

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, just to be clear, over here in the authorization 

column, on every single payment schedule we have, Abdul Odeh's 

name is not going to be in that column. Is that true?

A. That is true.

Q. And these authorizations for these payments all came out 

of Richardson. Right?

A. I think generally they did. I wouldn't want to say.

Q. Except for the ones that happened actually in Palestine. 

A. Correct.

Q. But otherwise, they all came out of Richardson?

A. They came out of the bank accounts for the headquarters 

office.

Q. Right.

A. Which we saw the signature card on one of those bank 

accounts.

Q. Right. And then oftentimes you get this name -- Here see 

these are checks, but then we move a little bit further and we 

start to get into the wires. Right?

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A. Correct.

Q. And those authorizations for the wires, of course there 

is none of those from Abdul Odeh either. 

A. You are correct.

Q. And in all the bankers boxes of materials, we never have 

seen a wire with Abdul Odeh's name on it, have we?

A. I have not seen one.

Q. Now, I want to talk to you about the financial records of 

the Holy Land Foundation. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. One other thing I forgot to -- Over on the side here, do 

you see this?

A. I do.

Q. And this is not -- All of the schedules that you have in 

evidence that you have testified about involve counts in the 

indictment. Isn't that true?

A. That is correct.

Q. But the schedules that do involve counts in the 

indictment, wherever the actual transaction pertains to the 

indictment, to a specific count in the indictment, it is going 

to be listed here on the side. Isn't that true?

A. It should be. That was the plan.

Q. Okay. Assuming the plan worked. 

A. Assuming it worked.

Q. That is the design. Right?

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A. Right.

Q. Okay. Now, there was -- In the spring of 2002, you came 

into possession of all of these records. 

A. The search warrant records from the Holy Land Foundation 

office in the spring of 2002.

Q. Not Elbarasse and all that, but there was no Holy Land 

Foundation financial records at Elbarasse's place or Ashqar's 

place or anything like that. Right?

A. The financial records that we used to compose those 

schedules did not come from the Elbarasse or the Ashqar 

searches.

Q. Right. And so I am talking about the stuff that you 

seized that you got with the search warrant on the Holy Land 

Foundation. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? And all of those records, you got them sometime in 

the spring of 2002. Right?

A. From the Holy Land Foundation, those records, yes, we 

did.

Q. Right. And you got them from Chicago and San Diego and 

New Jersey and here in Richardson--Dallas. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And all of these records were then -- ultimately they 

made it to the FBI office.

A. That is correct.

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Q. And that is where they remain?

A. Yes.

Q. And they have been at the FBI office since you first came 

into possession of them in 2002, haven't they?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you all bates stamped them and put them in boxes for 

storage and for your review. 

A. That is correct.

Q. And there is no public access to them, obviously. Right?

A. No.

Q. Someone couldn't -- A reporter couldn't walk in off the 

street and say, "Hey, I sure would like to look through all 

the Holy Land records."

A. No.

Q. And in fact, if I want to go over there and see the Holy 

Land records, I have to make an appointment. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then come over, and somebody will supervise me 

looking through kind of a box at a time and bring them out. 

Isn't that the way it works?

A. It is, because it is evidence so we can't just let 

evidence walk out the door.

Q. Right. Not that I would carry it out the door. Right?

A. I am not implying that you would.

Q. In these boxes, there were lots and lots of financial 

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records. Wouldn't you agree?

A. Yes, I would agree.

Q. And there was -- Of course there were wire transfers. 

Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the way a wire transfer works here, and probably 

everywhere, is there is like a request for a wire transfer. 

Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then there is this little receipt you get back from 

the bank saying that a wire transfer occurred?

A. I have seen the electronic payments advice I think is 

what they are called, EPAs.

Q. Right. And you found those things in these boxes.

A. A large number of them, yes.

Q. And in fact, the financial records that you found in 

these boxes, some of them dated all the way back to like 1991?

A. And maybe even earlier. I can't recall the earliest 

date, but there were a large number for a large period of 

time.

Q. They just didn't throw anything away. 

A. Well, I think the phone call between Mr. Baker and Mr. El 

Mezain, the one about getting rid of the documents, says 

differently, but they still had a lot of documents.

Q. Right. Well, you testified that you did a financial 

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investigation. 

A. I and some IRS agents.

Q. Right. And when you did this financial investigation, 

those wire transfers and the wire transfer receipts were 

something that you took into account, that you considered?

A. Yes.

Q. Right? There also were statements from the bank 

statements from the bank that were kept. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you had those bank statements?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you used those also?

A. Yes. I mean, I don't know -- I don't believe there were 

bank statements for all the time periods, but I did see bank 

statements. I can't recall from what time periods or from 

which banks.

Q. Right. Right. But certainly there were a lot of bank 

statements. 

A. There were bank statements.

Q. From a number of different bank accounts. 

A. I can't recall which bank accounts, but I did see bank 

statements.

Q. There were orphan lists?

A. Yes, there were.

Q. There were lists of needy families?

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A. Yes.

Q. There were like students and needy children lists and 

stuff that had been generated by the Holy Land Foundation. 

A. Correct.

Q. Right? There were -- Let me show you a couple of things 

here. This is HLF Search No. 160, page 1.

A. Okay.

Q. Now, you commented earlier this is not a very good copy. 

It has been faxed several times. But this right here -- This 

is some Arabic writing and some English writing, but this is a 

request for wire transfer, kind of a cover sheet for one of 

these transactions, isn't it?

A. I don't know if it would be called a cover sheet, but it 

was part of one of the transactions. We saw these with a lot 

of transactions.

Q. And then this down here is a receipt that came back from 

for instance, the zakat committee. True?

A. That is what it appears to be.

Q. And you had a number of these translated, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And this here is a stamp -- We oftentimes see the stamp 

on the receipt that comes back. True?

A. I have seen a number of stamps on these types of 

documents.

Q. This is still in the exhibit, I guess page 21. You 

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discussed this today. Actually this is in the supporting 

documents -- 

A. Okay.

Q. -- that you have listed. This is a document in Arabic, 

but then this is a translation that you all had done. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And this is another receipt. We don't need to get off 

into it, but can you see that is a thank you note, I guess?

MR. JONAS: Mr. Westfall, what page are you looking 

at? 

MR. WESTFALL: It is page 22.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) A thank you note from Jenin zakat?

A. That is what it says. It indicates it is a thank you 

note from the Jenin zakat committee to the HLF.

Q. Right. And then beginning at page 23 we have these 

things. And you saw lots of these also. Right?

A. I did.

Q. And you have had a few of them, a relatively few of them 

translated. 

A. That is correct.

Q. But this is a sheet where the children or the families 

who actually received the aid, the money, will sign or put a 

fingerprint. 

A. The document the way it is set up would indicate that 

that is what it is for. I don't know in this specific 

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instance who signed the document, but that is what it purports 

to be. 

When you look at the translation it has the name, the 

amount -- If we can go to the translation it might be a little 

easier to see.

Q. Because this is one of the ones you translated. Here is 

the next page, page 24, and can you see the name?

A. Yes.

Q. And Qabatyah, that is a town?

A. That is a town.

Q. And 30 Dinars is I guess what they received. Right?

A. According to this.

Q. And then under the thing that says recipient's signature, 

it identifies who signed, doesn't it?

A. Yes, that is what it says.

Q. The mother, mother, mother, and then mother's fingerprint 

is one of those. Right?

A. That is what -- I mean, that is what it says.

Q. Which would kind of correspond with the -- Because this 

is the one that you translated. Right?

A. This is one of the ones that was translated, yes.

Q. And these signature sheets, you have thousands of pages 

of these, don't you?

A. I didn't count the pages. I don't know how many pages of 

those there were.

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Q. You had a lot of them. 

A. There were a number of documents like that that I saw.

Q. Also there is photographs. Correct? Of aid projects?

A. I have seen photographs in the HLF evidence.

Q. And there is a lot of photographs?

A. There are a lot of photographs.

Q. And photographs of like children with backpacks, stuff 

that in other parts of the -- there is evidence that HLF 

funded. Right?

A. I have seen photographs with children with backpacks. 

Whether or not they relate to the documents and things like 

that, we would have to study them on an individual basis. But 

I have seen photographs with children in them.

Q. Right. And I wasn't being very clear. There has been in 

the records -- There are records of the Holy Land Foundation 

sending money for the purpose of backpacks. 

A. Yes.

Q. And then also in the records there are pictures of 

children with backpacks. 

A. In the records, I don't think we have introduced any, but 

I have seen pictures of children with backpacks in the HLF 

evidence.

Q. And pictures of children in like a computer lab?

A. I don't recall if I saw any pictures of children in 

computer labs.

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Q. Various projects. And we have pictures of that that 

appear to be pictures of projects. 

A. I have seen a lot of pictures.

Q. Videos of projects as well. Right?

A. I have seen some videos.

Q. And in addition, there was internal accounting records. 

I mean, they used accounting software at the Holy Land 

Foundation. Right?

A. They did.

Q. And there were reports, like annual reports done by the 

Holy Land Foundation?

A. What type of annual reports are you --

Q. Annual reports of money raised, money spent, income, 

revenue. What do you call those reports that companies 

generate at the end of the year? Annual reports. 

A. You know, I probably have seen some. I can't recall 

offhand if I did, but if you have one I would be glad to look 

at it.

Q. And then there is -- Each one of these little wire 

transfers is called a grant. Right?

A. I know that they called some of their transfers grants, 

but I think they had different terminology that they used for 

different expenditures, so I wouldn't want to say that they 

are all referred to by them as grants.

Q. They had a thing called a grants list, don't they?

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A. Yes, I have seen those.

Q. That was issued each year for a number of years?

A. I don't know on what basis, like how frequently they 

issued them, but I have seen a number of them in the records 

that we have seized.

Q. And those grants list contain the wire transfer 

transactions. Isn't that true?

A. They contain names of recipients and amounts in like a 

date range, as I recall.

Q. And that was something that was internally produced by 

the Holy Land Foundation. It was in the records. 

A. Correct.

Q. Now, when you did your financial investigation, did 

you -- Let me ask you this. You took the financial records 

that you had and you analyzed them, didn't you?

A. We took the records that we had and tried to put them in 

some order.

Q. Right. And once you did that you arrived at how much 

money was going to here and there, and you basically -- Surely 

you did kind of an accounting. 

A. I know that we analyzed certain of their transactions, 

but we never did a full accounting of every dollar that they 

spent.

Q. Okay. So you never did an audit of the Holy Land 

Foundation materials?

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A. I am not an auditor, so I wouldn't even know where to 

begin doing an audit.

Q. Did you have a CPA working on it?

A. We had IRS agents. One or more of them were CPAs.

Q. Did one or more of them do a forensic audit?

A. They did a detailed analysis of the financial documents, 

but to my knowledge they never tried to identify where every 

single penny went.

Q. Okay. Did you do a detailed analysis?

A. I assisted in the detailed analysis.

Q. This is the payment schedule for Ramallah. What I would 

like to do is move into the supporting documents that underlie 

these. 

A. Okay.

Q. And speak about this a little bit. 

A. Okay.

Q. And what some of these documents look like. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. Sitting right where you are, Agent Burns, can you read 

that okay? 

A. You might want to focus it just a little bit more. 

There. I may have a little bit of trouble with the numbers. 

You may have to help me out. But I can at least see the --

THE COURT: Before we get there, let's take an 

afternoon break. Let's take a 20-minute break. 

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(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess for 20 minutes.

(Brief recess.)

THE COURT: Mr. Westfall?

MR. WESTFALL: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) What I would like to do now is go 

through a little bit of supporting documentation on some of 

these transactions. 

A. Okay.

Q. And I haven't made an extra copy of this for you, but I 

am going to put everything on the elmo.

A. Okay.

Q. Over here in the exhibit number, here it shows InfoCom 

Search No. 16.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you see that? And then here HLF Search No. 38. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And what that means is that the InfoCom Search No. 16 and 

HLF Search No. 38, those are the main supporting exhibits for 

the Holy Land files for this particular schedule.

A. That is correct.

Q. And this is InfoCom Search No. 16.

A. Okay.

Q. Which is in evidence. And this is HLF Search No. 38, 

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which is also in evidence. 

A. Okay.

Q. Now, I am going to page 69. And for the time being, 

Agent Burns, the only thing I am going to talk about are 

transactions that are actually counts in the indictment. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? And this particular one is this $34,563. 

A. Okay.

Q. Which is a count in the indictment. 

A. Okay.

Q. And this is what the cover sheet looks like. Now, this 

transaction, do you know what this transaction is?

A. I mean, I know it is referenced on the schedule. I am 

not sure if you are --

Q. On here you can't tell what the individual transaction is 

on, can you?

A. I am sorry. You can't tell what? 

Q. What the money went to; only where it went from the 

schedule. Right?

A. You can tell it went to the Ramallah zakat committee.

Q. Right. But you can't tell what it went there for. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, you are familiar with the term social dues. 

A. Yes.

Q. What is social dues?

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A. That is a term that the HLF used to describe its social 

programs, I guess.

Q. Like the orphan payments and the needy child payments and 

the families payments?

A. They use that terminology to refer to those things.

Q. Right. Now, what I want to do is just kind of hold this 

up so you can see it.

A. Okay.

Q. That will be easier than this elmo. This here is the 

cover sheet, page 69. Correct?

A. Again, I don't know if I would call it a cover sheet, but 

it is one of the documents that relates to that transaction.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, if I was to keep my voice 

loud, could I stand next to her and just show her these 

documents? 

THE COURT: All right.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Go ahead and just look at them. 

A. Okay. Do you want me to go through all of them? 

Q. Well, let me do this. This page 69, is this the cover 

sheet? Do you see it? Is that the cover sheet?

A. When you keep calling it a cover sheet, it is a fund 

transfer notification with a receipt at the bottom.

Q. And this particular one you have had translated. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. And that is on page 70?

A. Yes.

MR. WESTFALL: And I will walk back out here, Your 

Honor. I am just going to have to fight with the elmo.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) On page 70 -- Let me show you what 

that translation looks like. It is the translation of the 

wire transfer request form, the thing I was calling the cover 

sheet. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. And you all had that translation done. 

A. Yes.

Q. And then there are documents that look like this, which 

we will call request for transfer of funds, the wire transfer 

requests.

A. Yes.

Q. That is what these are?

A. Yes.

MR. JONAS: Mr. Westfall, will you tell us the page 

numbers?

MR. WESTFALL: Page 72.

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) And in particular, this page 72 is the 

reference and the project number, and it says families dues 

from 3/1/97 to 6/30/97. Right?

A. That is what it says.

Q. And it is to be paid to the Ramallah zakat committee.

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A. That is correct.

Q. Page 73 is a request for transfer of funds, and it is the 

NC, needy child dues. 

A. That is correct. That is the abbreviation they used to 

reference that.

Q. And it is the same time period?

A. Yes.

Q. And there is a dollar amount?

A. Correct.

Q. And Ramallah zakat committee. 

A. Yes.

Q. And then there is the orphans dues. Right?

A. That is what it says.

Q. Here is another families dues. True?

A. Correct.

Q. And then another orphans dues, which is page 76. And 

page 71, rather, is expenses for an orphan's party. 

A. That is what it says.

Q. Now, what you will see oftentimes, is here there will be 

sort of a breakdown on this fund transfer notification. True?

A. Yes.

Q. Of the orphans, the family, needy child, et cetera. 

Right?

A. That is what it says.

Q. And then -- And I am only going to do this once. There 

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will be what is called an orphans list. Right?

A. In some cases. Since we are only doing an example of 

these, I just want to note that in all cases we were not able 

to link lists like this to the others. But in this instance, 

yes.

Q. But you tried, though, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Because this would be important information to have if 

you were going to do a financial investigation.

A. Well, the financial investigation relates to the actual 

financial transactions between the HLF and the committees. I 

actually requested that while they were doing it that everyone 

who was working on the project attempt to pull together 

information so that we could see what the HLF was saying their 

money was going for. Since we are not there, we have no way 

to know exactly where the money went, I at least wanted to see 

what they were saying that the money was going.

Q. Did it matter to you whether the money went to children 

or anything else. I mean, for purposes of your investigation, 

did it matter to you that the money was going to children? 

A. The most important aspect of this analysis was that the 

money was going to the committee. Where they said it went was 

of interest to me, but when you say does it matter, that is 

kind of a broad question that kind of needs to be broken down 

a little bit.

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Q. Well, let's say for purpose of your investigation, 

because you have spoken before about what information was 

relevant to you.

A. Correct.

Q. You know, relevant to your investigation.

A. Yes.

Q. And the fact that the money is going to children, was 

that relevant to your investigation?

A. Well, the fact that they said that it was going for 

children, and that they had orphans lists along with it was 

relevant. And it was also relevant when they said that it was 

going for children and there were no orphans lists. 

But generally, the existence of the financial 

transactions we were looking for with respect to the financial 

investigation, we were looking to see if the HLF was 

supporting the special segment of the population, like 

marters' children. I would look at these lists to see if 

those specific types of people were on these lists.

Q. Okay. We will talk more about that in a bit.

Do you see here where it says $11,305?

A. I do.

Q. Do you see this orphan dues fund transfer also says 

$11,305?

A. Yes.

Q. Here is a list of families' dues. Do you see that?

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A. I do.

Q. And do you see where it says $2812? 

A. I do.

Q. Do you see that there is a wire request for $2812 for 

families' dues?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: We are having some computer problems. 

Let's stop for just a moment.

(Pause in proceedings.)

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) I will pick up with page 76. And page 

76 is an orphan dues in the amount of $17,038. True?

A. Yes.

Q. And then here is page 86, 87, 88. This is a list of 

orphans. Is that what it looks like?

A. That is what it is entitled, orphans list.

Q. And then the amount here is $17,038. Which is the same 

amount?

A. That is correct.

Q. Now, page 89 is a translation that you did on the Arabic 

orphans. Right?

A. The translator did it.

Q. Okay. You were I guess looking for particular names?

A. Well, on the exhibits that we were introducing, we tried 

to have all of the Arabic in English so you could read it.

Q. Okay. Page 75 is family dues of $1264. 

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A. That is what it says.

Q. And then there is $1264 family dues. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And then to wrap it up, needy child, which is $144 on the 

list. Can you see that there?

A. I do.

Q. And then $144 there?

A. Correct.

Q. And it all adds up to $34,563, which is the amount that 

you have on your schedule. 

A. Correct.

Q. Now, these -- All of these records here that we just went 

through have an HLDL number on them. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. Which means they were seized in Dallas, and you have had 

them since 2002. 

A. Correct.

Q. Now, at some point after that you sent out subpoenas or 

some form of process to foreign banks and got the records of 

foreign banks where these transactions actually went through. 

Isn't that true?

A. We were able to get some of them; not all of them.

Q. Right. This particular transaction, and I believe 

certainly every transaction that is in the indictment that is 

specified with one of these. Right? 

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A. It is supposed to be, yes.

Q. You have foreign bank records to back up these 

transactions. Right?

A. I don't know about that.

Q. You don't know about that?

A. No. Again, the financial analysis was from the HLF to 

the zakat committee, so it wasn't always necessary to have 

foreign bank records to show that wire transfer or that 

financial transaction.

Q. Well, I guess what I am asking is there is not a doubt in 

your mind that this money actually went to that zakat 

committee. Right?

A. No. It went.

Q. And then all of the investigation that you did 

afterwards, what you did basically was confirm that the money 

that the Holy Land Foundation said went to the zakat 

committees actually went to the zakat committees. True?

A. Are you talking about on this particular transaction -- 

Q. Yes. 

A. Or are you talking in general.

Q. On this particular transaction No. 1, let's start there. 

Is that true for that?

A. Can we look at the schedule to see if there are foreign 

records? I don't recall. There were so many transactions, I 

don't recall offhand if foreign records were actually used on 

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this one.

Q. There were transactions here?

A. Correct.

Q. It doesn't show any foreign records listed, but I think 

you have told me already there is no doubt in your mind that 

this money actually went to the zakat committee?

A. That is correct, because we had the evidence showing the 

wire leaving here and the bank records showing the intended 

recipient. It went over. 

Q. Right. 

A. And maybe I am misunderstanding your question. I thought 

you were asking me about having the foreign bank records to 

prove it.

Q. To the -- When we hit one that has foreign bank records, 

I will talk to you about that. 

A. Thank you.

Q. I was getting a little bit ahead of myself. 

A. Okay.

Q. While we are on the subject of the orphans list, this 

shows the amount of money each one received. Isn't that true?

A. According to their records, that is how much they 

received.

Q. And of course, you know, this total amount is going to 

match the wire. Right?

A. It should.

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Q. Right. And sometimes, for instance, there will be an 

orphan gift that will be added to it, and then that will match 

the wire. Have you seen that?

A. I have seen that.

Q. But if you took this number here and you added up all of 

these numbers, it would add up, assuming all the sheets were 

there. 

A. In this particular instance it does add up.

Q. Okay. So it is reasonable to assume that this is the 

amount of money that each person received is what is out here. 

Right?

A. According to their records. I can't say beyond that, 

because obviously I am not in Ramallah, so I can only tell you 

what their records say.

Q. There were also signature sheets. Right?

A. There were.

Q. Like the ones we just looked at. 

A. Correct.

Q. And what those signature sheets showed was at least a 

signature or a fingerprint and that some money was purportedly 

disbursed. True?

A. That is what it shows.

Q. I have been through this, and the only signature sheet 

that I have found were the ones you showed this morning. I 

don't find any signature sheets in this entire deal for the 

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zakat committee we are talking about right now--Ramallah. 

A. Okay.

Q. There is no signature sheets in there. 

A. I Would have to look through it to tell you if there are 

or there aren't. It is quite possible there are or aren't. I 

know there were some signature sheets in some of the exhibits, 

but I can't say that they are in the Ramallah exhibit.

Q. There are a lot of signature sheets in the case, but just 

in looking through them I have seen a very, very, very small 

number that actually have been translated. Does that sound 

accurate to you?

A. We have had a small number of them translated, yes.

Q. See this right here, this $95,000 transfer?

A. I do.

Q. I want to show you now page 107 just really fast.

A. Okay.

Q. And this is the fund transfer notification for that.

A. Okay.

Q. Does that look familiar?

A. It does, although this is for the Islamic Charitable 

Society of Hebron. I don't know if we are on that one.

Q. True. That is one of the things I wanted to go over with 

you. Here is the English translation. This appears to be an 

example of a food parcel project. 

A. That is correct.

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Q. Would you agree? And it was a food parcel project that 

went to a number of different locations--Hebron. It doesn't 

show it here. It just shows it on the receipt. It is the ICS 

Hebron, but it is in Ramallah. 

A. If that is the same one. I can't recall offhand if that 

is the same transaction or not.

Q. But one of the things we will see with food parcels 

particularly, or backpack projects, is these final reports. 

Isn't that true?

A. We do see final reports.

Q. And here is page 110. Well, here is 109, which is an 

Arabic document. Page 110 is the translation of that Arabic 

document. And it is a report on the Ramadan project. Isn't 

that true?

A. Yes.

Q. And you see how there is a number of different zakat 

committees listed?

A. I do.

Q. Number of food packages that went to each one?

A. Yes.

Q. So what this was is a transaction that--here is Ramallah 

right here--that went to a number of different places.

A. That is correct.

Q. And this particular transaction, this $95,000 transaction 

turns up in a number of the different payment schedules. Does 

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that ring any bells?

A. It does.

Q. And did you know there is also signature sheets for these 

food parcel projects?

A. There may have been.

Q. The Holy Land Foundation also had a number of purchase 

receipts and stuff in their records, too, where they had 

purchased food or equipment and the such. They had paperwork 

like that in there, too. 

A. I have seen purchase receipts.

Q. This is another indictment transaction. It is 5/18/99. 

5/20/99 is the date on it. And I just wanted to show you one 

thing on this. This is the receipt that would come back from 

the zakat committee. Isn't that true?

A. That is what this one is, and it appears to be based on 

the date. I mean, I have -- I can't say that it is the same 

transaction without seeing the amount and all that, but this 

is again one of those forms that we talked about that would 

have the receipt at the bottom.

Q. Right. Well, you see this 9280 there?

A. Yes.

Q. Here is the one without the receipt--9280. 

A. Correct.

Q. And it is of course in the same materials in your 

supporting documents. 

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A. Correct.

Q. As the rest of the stuff. So this is the receipt in fact 

for this transaction. Wouldn't you agree?

A. Yes.

Q. And this stamp here, the next page is a translation of 

that. See how the stamp says Palestinian National Authority?

A. I see that.

Q. Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs?

A. I see that.

Q. That Palestinian Authority stamp turns up on a lot of 

these, doesn't it?

A. I think it would be a mischaracterization to call that a 

Palestinian Authority stamp. That is a Ramallah zakat 

committee stamp wherein they note if they are under the 

Palestinian National Authority, Ministry of Endowment. So it 

is not like the Palestinian Authority is stamping that 

document. That is the Ramallah zakat committee stamp.

Q. Right. And it comes under the Ministry of Endowments and 

Religious Affairs zakat fund directorate. Is that true?

A. That is correct.

Q. Ramallah, by the way, is in the West Bank. Right?

A. It is.

Q. And in fact, all of the zakat committees that are 

transactions in the indictment are West Bank entities. True?

A. Correct.

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Q. Every single one of them over in the West Bank?

A. One in Jerusalem.

Q. Which Jerusalem is not Gaza. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. I will move to ICS Hebron, and I just have a couple of 

questions about ICS Hebron.

A. Okay.

Q. The Holy Land Foundation did pay for a children's library 

to be built over in Hebron. True?

A. That is correct.

Q. This is one of the transactions where they are sending 

money over for that purpose. Isn't that right?

A. That is what it says at the top--"children library Hebron 

construction."

Q. Here is another indictment transaction. I haven't seen 

one of these yet. HLF Search No. 33. This is the electronic 

payments advice that you mentioned. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, this is page 333. Is this the fund transfer 

notification for ICS Hebron? And ICS Hebron actually has a 

number of different locations. Isn't that true?

A. They have several branches.

Q. And each one -- There is like the Beit Oula zakat 

committee, the Islamic Charity Committee of Yatta, there is 

Doura, Beit Oula, and those -- We see those names -- Like, for 

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instance, here is an orphans list. Do you see where it says 

IC?

A. Yes.

Q. Here is ICBN. True?

A. Yes.

Q. And here is DZ, and that would be Doura zakat. Does that 

ring any bells?

A. Yes, but I don't know that I would refer to that 

particular entity as a branch of the Islamic Charitable 

Society of Hebron. I believe that is a different entity maybe 

through whom the HLF, you know, did business. But I wouldn't 

call it a branch like the other ones are. The Islamic Charity 

Society Doura branch. So just a small distinction there.

Q. Right. But they have a tendency to be on these. And my 

point is this. These ICS Hebron transactions had a tendency 

to be pretty large with a lot of different pages. 

A. They did.

Q. And so if we were to do what I just did on that single 

transaction with Ramallah, it would take about 30 minutes?

A. I don't know how long it would take, but you would have 

to do a lot of adding.

Q. Now, I am moving into Jenin. And this is going to be all 

out of HLF Search No. 35. Here is page 52, and this is a 

transaction that occurred 4/3/98. And what we see here is 

wire transfers but no orphans list.

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A. Okay.

Q. Now, did you -- Did you make an exhaustive search for 

these orphan lists?

A. I know that we looked for them. I don't know -- I can't 

say on that one whether there were orphans lists or not. I 

know we found some orphans lists for some of the transactions 

and for some of them we didn't, but I don't know if that is 

one of them or not.

Q. But some of the -- Like for instance these bates numbers, 

if the bates numbers were not sequential, did you go looking 

for the orphans list anywhere else?

A. Like I said, we looked in the records for orphans lists. 

Just because it is not in there doesn't mean it doesn't exist, 

but we were successful in locating some and unsuccessful in 

locating others.

Q. Here is a -- There is four indictment transactions in 

Jenin. 

A. Okay.

Q. And those four transactions are all missing documents. 

So was it just you that was looking, or were other people 

looking, too?

A. When you say missing documents, what are you saying? 

Q. For instance, missing orphan lists mainly, but missing 

also wire transfers and such. 

A. Well, when you say missing, the orphans lists are not 

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part of the financial analysis so I wouldn't consider that a 

missing document for that purpose. If they are not there -- 

Like I said, we may have located them; we may not have. 

But generally on the wire transfer, the wire transfer 

notifications we sought to find all that would add up to the 

total. Generally we were able to find those. In some 

instances we weren't. So when you ask me about missing 

documents, I mean, I wouldn't consider the orphans list not 

being there a missing documents list.

Q. You don't consider that a missing documents list?

A. No, not for the financial analysis.

Q. I am going to skip over to Nablus, which again is in the 

West Bank. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And your documents that underlie Nablus are InfoCom 

Search No. 15 and HLF Search No. 37. 

Now, at page 53 in HLF Search No. 37, this is an example 

of a final report. Isn't that true.

A. It is.

Q. And we have seen a lot of these as well. 

A. Yes.

Q. And here is the translation of the final report. And 

this one was food packages. True?

A. That is correct. That is what it says.

Q. And this $2985 matches with -- Well, $3,000 was 

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transferred; $2985 was received. Now, whenever you wire 

money, there is a little wire transfer cost in there, isn't 

there?

A. Generally.

Q. Is it $15?

A. From what I have seen in most of these documents, it was 

$15.

Q. And these final reports, like this would be either sent 

or faxed back from the committee or the beneficiary back to 

the Holy Land Foundation office.

A. They should be.

Q. Okay. Now, I want to switch gears a little bit and speak 

with you about the Ayyash children. 

A. Okay.

Q. And these are the children of the engineer.

A. Correct.

Q. Who was -- He died in January of '95 or '96?

A. 1996.

Q. And he had two sons. Right?

A. As far as I know he had two.

Q. And the older one was Bara'a. Does that ring a bell?

A. I think that is the way you pronounce it.

Q. And the younger one was Yehia Yehia Ayyash?

A. Correct.

Q. We have heard he was weeks old when his father was 

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killed. Have you heard that?

A. He was an infant.

Q. And Yehia Yehia Ayyash is the orphan that my client Abdul 

Odeh sponsored. 

A. He was the child of, yes, Yehia Ayyash, that your client 

sponsored.

Q. Well, early in that period, that '96 period, they were in 

Gaza. Right? I mean, you saw the funds going to Gaza, the 

orphan sponsorships going to Gaza. Right?

A. The money that the HLF is sending over for the two 

children was initially going through Gaza, yes.

Q. Right. And then ultimately they came over to Nablus, and 

we see the money going to Nablus. 

A. I see the money going to Nablus. I can't state for sure 

that they moved because I don't know, but I know that the 

money started going to them through Nablus.

Q. I am in Nablus. This is page 48 of HLF No. 37. And this 

is an orphan list. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you see there where it says Bara'a Yehia Ayyash?

A. I do.

Q. That is the older one. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it says Gaza. 

A. Correct.

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Q. And he is getting, according to this, $135. Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And if we just look at all of the names on the list, 

every single one of them appears to be getting $135. Correct? 

Except for a couple that are getting zero or something?

A. Except for those.

Q. And certainly on these forms where you found the Ayyash 

children, you went through and looked for other special 

subjects or interesting children to see if there were any 

other names that you could recognize, didn't you?

A. I noticed some other names on the orphans lists that I 

recognized.

Q. Did you look through all of these names?

A. I am sure I did, but this was one of many documents that 

I looked at. 

Q. It doesn't appear you made any notations. He is 

receiving the same money as everyone else. Right?

A. He is, except for those that have the zeros marked.

Q. Here is page 98. This is another orphans list, and there 

is Bara'a. Appears to be receiving the same $135 as the other 

kids, except for the ones that are getting $66. 

A. There are a number on there that are getting $66.

Q. Page 133. Here is Bara'a again, and still receiving 

basically the same amount as everybody. Now it is $85.50, 

except for a couple of people who get $42.75. Isn't that 

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true?

A. The numbers you have cited are true. I wouldn't 

characterize that as the same amount, because it is the twice 

amount of the ones getting $45, but the amount you stated is 

correct.

Q. Certainly. And the vast majority of kids on this list 

are getting $85.50. True?

A. I would say a majority.

Q. And you look over here at the amount and it is $90 and 

then $45. Isn't that right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you see over here where it says 1/31/99 to 2/28/99 -- 

Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. $45?

A. I do.

Q. Do you see where it says 12/31/98 to 2/28/99, $90?

A. Yes.

Q. So this, it would stand to reason, is one month's pay and 

this is two. 

A. Actually it would be two months and three months. It 

would be January and February, and the other one would 

be -- Actually, yes, it would be January and February, and 

then the other one would be just for February.

Q. The month of February?

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A. I am sorry.

Q. So this $45 or $90, what have you, goes to the zakat 

committee, and then that is what is paid out to the orphan. 

They take this little five percent. Isn't that the way these 

appear?

A. That is the way these appear.

Q. So once we have figured this out, then Bara'a Ayyash is 

receiving the exact same amount as everyone else on this 

sheet. 

A. In that sense, yes.

Q. Okay. Now, this is page 155, 156, 157, 158, and we are 

now in February April of 1999. And there is Bara'a again. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. $85.50. 

A. Correct.

Q. And then more orphans. And then finally Yehia Yehia 

Ayyash is on the list in Nablus, and he is receiving the same 

$85.50. Isn't that true?

A. That is correct.

Q. And I will just cut to this. This is page 197, page 209, 

page 220, page 231, and page 240. Now, I know I went through 

those kind of quick, but in every single one of those wasn't 

either Bara'a or Yehia Yehia Ayyash receiving the same money 

as everyone else?

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A. From what I could tell.

Q. And that was -- Basically an orphan sponsorship was $50 a 

month. Right?

A. During that time period.

Q. And during this time period a sponsor would pay sometimes 

monthly, sometimes quarterly, sometimes annually for their 

orphan. Isn't that true?

A. I have seen that the HLF paid sometimes monthly, 

sometimes for two months at a time, and sometimes for three 

months at a time. I don't know about the donors.

Q. Okay. The prevailing rate I guess, though, for orphan 

sponsorships is $50 a month. Right?

A. During that time period, yes.

Q. And the time period I am talking about is the time period 

of the indictment. 

A. Okay.

Q. All right? And the reminder notice that got sent to 

Abdul Odeh was $50 a month. Right?

A. I believe that it was.

Q. And then family sponsorships was $100 a month. True?

A. It varied, so I can't recall. I think initially it was 

$50, and it may have gone up to $100. I can't recall the 

specific amount. But they had a standard amount that they 

used for needy families.

Q. I am going to switch gears. Now I want to talk to you a 

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little bit about your summary charts.

A. Okay.

Q. You went through those yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. I think you told us that the aims of the summary charts 

were -- There were three basic aims. One of them was to show 

Holy Land's connection to the members of the zakat committee 

and the zakat committee itself. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. One of them -- One of the aims was to show the members of 

the zakat committees in your summary charts, their connections 

to the zakat committees. 

A. Correct.

Q. And then the final aim of the summary charts was to show 

the members that are listed on your summary charts, their 

connections to Hamas, if any. 

A. That is not entirely true, because what we base -- The 

third purpose was to show if there were any evidence within 

the search warrant material, and that limited bit of evidence 

between the members and Hamas.

Q. Okay. 

A. So I wouldn't say all evidence. I would just say limited 

to the specific types of evidence that are referenced in that 

chart.

Q. Right. And that is exactly what I meant. 

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A. Okay.

Q. So let's talk about that and let's talk about -- When I 

asked you about evidence of Hamas, I am asking you about the 

search warrant materials. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? 

A. Just because -- I want to be clear, because I don't want 

to say that that is all the evidence that there is when it is 

not.

Q. And I do, too. And certainly that is what you testified 

to yesterday was the materials that you got via the search 

warrant. 

A. Correct.

Q. Right? I have four summaries here. One is the Islamic 

Center of Gaza, the one with Sheikh Yassin's picture on it. 

One is the Islamic Relief Committee. True?

A. Correct.

Q. And one is the Islamic Society of Gaza. And the other 

one is the al-Salah Society. Now, these four summary charts 

do not cover counts of the indictment. Isn't that true?

A. They are not identified in specific counts in the 

indictment.

Q. So I will set those aside, then. But just on the Islamic 

Center of Gaza, because you went over this one for a good part 

of the morning yesterday.

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A. Okay.

Q. And on this guy here Atef Abed. 

A. Yes.

Q. What you told us I believe is that the only evidence you 

were able to find in the search warrant materials that he had 

any connection to Hamas was the fact that he was on this 

committee. Did you say that?

A. I belief I was asked if there was any evidence linking 

him to Hamas in the search warrant material, and said not 

other than through the Islamic Center of Gaza.

Q. Other than the fact that he was a member of the 

committee. 

A. Correct.

Q. I want to first talk to you about the Jenin zakat 

committee. 

A. Okay.

Q. And one of the things I am going to be using a lot when I 

speak with you is--I will show this--is this InfoCom Search 

No. 28. You recognize that. Right?

A. I do.

Q. That is the -- I don't know -- 

A. They call it the InfoCom list.

Q. The InfoCom list. Okay. The Jenin zakat committee does 

not have a membership list in the InfoCom list. True?

A. It is referenced in there -- I believe two or three of 

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the individuals' names are listed in there, but it doesn't 

have what some of them do, where they break them down and 

usually number them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

Q. Right. This is what we have for Jenin, and this is at 

page 119. These are the names we talked about under the 

account number and account name. 

A. Correct.

Q. But in InfoCom Search No. 30, which is this document 

which actually is kind of a greenish color -- I will show you 

the translation and you will remember it. 

A. I know what the exhibit is. I don't remember it being 

green.

Q. Okay. I know it is some sort of a color. It covers the 

al-Razi Hospital. Right?

A. It does.

Q. And the al-Razi Hospital is a hospital that is run by the 

Jenin zakat committee. Isn't that true?

A. That is correct.

Q. But then at page 11 of that there is the members of the 

zakat committee. 

A. Correct.

Q. Well, what I have highlighted there are the members of 

that zakat committee that are on your summary sheet. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. I will just tell you that. 

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Now, what we have, we have 13 members that are listed 

here on this zakat committee. Isn't that true? 

A. There are some of them that aren't identified by name, 

like "Hajj, whose name I don't remember now," but there are 13 

numbers on there.

Q. Right. And you never heard of "Hajj, whose name I don't 

remember now"?

A. No.

Q. Apparently they are talking about some person. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. So there is 13 members, and it says members of the zakat 

committee. True?

A. Correct.

Q. And here are the eight that you have put on your summary 

chart. And then the highlighted ones are the ones that are 

both on your summary chart and a part of this members of the 

zakat committee list. All right?

A. Okay.

Q. So there is four highlighted, and there is four 

highlighted.

Now, -- And I do recognize that Fawaz Hamad is involved 

with the hospital, Dr. Ziad Abdel Ghani, both of whom are on 

your list are on there. Okay? I recognize that. 

A. Okay.

Q. All right. Now, what I want to ask you is how many 

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members -- And Let's speak about the time of the indictment, 

which would be -- I mean, every single transaction that is 

listed in all your payment schedules came after the first 

designation in January of '95. Isn't that true?

A. In the indictment? 

Q. Yes.

A. The counts in the indictment, yes.

Q. Right. So let's talk about from 1995 until 2001. 

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Okay? And tell me, how many members were there on the 

Jenin zakat committee during the period from 1995 to 2001?

A. I don't know how many members there were. I only know 

from the evidence which members the HLF was dealing with. I 

don't know how many members were on the zakat committee. 

Q. Can you tell me the dates of service of these members 

that you have on your summary chart? Can you tell me the 

dates they were on the zakat committee?

A. Well, I can generalize the dates that the HLF had contact 

with them through the Jenin zakat committee.

Q. Okay. What are those?

A. I mean, the evidence that we have looked at shows that 

the HLF's connection with Fawaz Hamad was from I think 1990 

until basically they were closed down.

Q. Okay. 

A. But both before and after his arrests.

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Q. Zeid Zakarneh?

A. I think we would want to pull up the actual documents to 

see the earliest dates, but we see him post designation 

referenced in a 1997 fax, a 1998 thank you letter, there is a 

video involving him that I don't think has been played yet, 

but I believe that is after the Intifada in October of 2000. 

But to be sure on the dates, we may want to bring up these 

documents to look at them because I wouldn't want to guess.

Q. Well, how about Naser Yusef?

A. He was the one who signed a lot of the lists that we were 

talking about earlier that identified the recipients and their 

financial situations, and those were I think from the mid to 

late '90s. But again, I would like to look at the documents 

to give you specific dates. But he did not appear very 

frequently. It was Fawaz Hamad, Zeid Zakarneh, Ahmed Salatna. 

Those people appeared much more frequently in contact with the 

HLF.

Q. Let's look at Fawaz Hamad, Zeid Zakarneh -- Now, is there 

evidence in the search warrant materials that you have seen 

that link Fawaz Hamad to Hamas?

A. In the search warrant material? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Not that I have seen.

Q. Okay. Is there evidence in the search warrant materials 

that links Zeid Zakarneh to Hamas?

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A. Not in the search warrant material.

Q. Is there evidence in the search warrant materials that 

links Ahmed Salatna to Hamas?

A. Not in the search warrant material.

Q. Mohamed Abu Zeid I guess was in that book. Right?

A. Yes. He was in the book listed as one of the Hamas 

founders in the West Bank I believe, and also in the deportee 

tent.

Q. How about Adeeb Aboushi? Is there evidence in the search 

warrant materials that links him to Hamas?

A. Not in the search warrant materials.

Q. How about Ziyad Abdel Ghani?

A. He was one of the deportees.

Q. Okay. Now, the deportees, I guess for purposes of this 

we will just assume that that gives a yes answer. But that 

one guy yesterday seemed to cut off in mid sentence where he 

said some of the brothers are this or that, and then there are 

some brothers, and it cut off. Did you notice that?

A. I think he said most of the brothers were Hamas and some 

were jihad is what he said. And he said, "And there were some 

other brothers that were," and it did cut off. I think he was 

saying who were not affiliated with those.

Q. Now, that was a snippet that you all made of that video?

A. That was a clip, yes.

Q. All right. Walid Jarrar. Any evidence in the search 

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warrant materials that he is involved with Hamas?

A. Not in the search warrant material.

Q. Naser Yusef?

A. Not in the search warrant material.

Q. I want to talk to you next about Bethlehem Orphan 

Society. Okay?

A. Okay.

Q. And Bethlehem Orphan Society, page 14 out of the InfoCom 

list, appears to have seven members on the zakat committee. 

True?

A. Actually this is when it was the Bethlehem zakat 

committee, not the Bethlehem Orphan Society.

Q. Okay. Well, morphed. Right?

A. I am sorry? 

Q. It morphed. 

A. The Bethlehem zakat committee stayed. It didn't go away. 

It is just the Bethlehem Orphan Society moved over there and 

the transfers moved over there.

Q. So do we not have a list of the members of the Orphan 

Care Society?

A. Well, this list predated the existence of the Orphan Care 

Society. The Orphan Care Society founded in 1997, I think 

around there, 1996, '97, '98.

Q. Do we not have a list of the entire membership of the 

Orphan Care Society?

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A. I think there was a list that I have seen of the members.

Q. Which exhibit is it?

A. I don't think it is referenced on there.

Q. Oh, okay. Well, this is your summary chart and you have 

three names on it Bethlehem Orphan Society. 

A. Correct.

Q. During the relevant period how many members were there on 

the entire zakat committee?

A. I don't know. Again, I focused on who the HLF was 

primarily dealing with, so I don't know how many members there 

were on the committee at the time; or the Society, rather.

Q. And these you have Ghassan Harmas, Rabah Abdeen, and 

Ismail Abdel Fattah?

A. Correct.

Q. Ghassan Harmas, if I remember correctly, is in the book 

and there is evidence in this record in the search warrant 

materials that he has some connection to Hamas. Isn't that 

true?

A. There was evidence in the search warrant material linking 

him -- identifying him as a leader of Hamas.

Q. How about Rabah Abdeen?

A. There is nothing in the search warrant material, although 

I cannot recall what the exact reference was in Elbarasse 

Search No. 22. So we might want to look at that and see how 

he was identified in that.

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Q. Okay. What was Elbarasse Search No. 22? Have you got 

that handy?

A. I just can't recall specifically how he was referenced in 

that.

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: It says --

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) It talks about Bethlehem zakat, 

doesn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me show the jury. And this is the Muslim Brotherhood 

document. Right?

A. Actually it is the letter to Shukri.

Q. Oh, okay. Bethlehem zakat committee. That is the one 

you said predated it?

A. That is correct.

Q. And it says there is 11 members. But this predates this 

other one, too. 

A. Yes. But it said, "We have 7 out of 11," and included 

him, so I would consider that a link to Hamas.

Q. Okay. But you said that the Bethlehem zakat committee 

closed down. I am not quibbling with you, but you said 

Ghassan Harmas left and started this Bethlehem Orphan Society. 

A. No, I never said the Bethlehem zakat committee shut down 

and I didn't say that Ghassan Harmas started the Bethlehem 

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Orphan Society. He moved to the Bethlehem Orphan Society. 

And I am sorry. I thought your question was about was there 

anything connecting Rabah Abdeen with Hamas. I thought we 

were checking the letter and -- 

Q. You didn't see anything in that?

A. That is what I was saying. Based on the content of the 

letter, that is a connection to Hamas.

Q. Was his name in there?

A. Yes.

Q. I will take your word for it. Ismail Abdel Fattah?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Now, this InfoCom Search -- No, wait a minute. This is 

HLF Search No. 4, which is the OCS Bethlehem supporting 

documents. 

A. Okay.

Q. Okay? Do you see this name right here?

A. I do.

Q. Ghassan Issa and M-O-H, period?

A. Yes.

Q. Ghassan Issa Mohammad?

A. Yes. If you will look for his full name, I believe you 

can go to InfoCom Search No. 25, page 89, and it gives you the 

full name.

Q. Okay. And is that full name this Ghassan Harmas?

A. That is the last name. It shows like the multiple parts 

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of his name Ghassan Issa. If we want to double check to be 

sure, go to InfoCom search 25, page 89, and check to be 

accurate.

Q. How about Walid Daoud, who replaced him as director? 

W-A-L-I-D D-A-O-U-D, who turns up signing these same forms as 

director after the time period reflected in your supporting 

documents. All of a sudden there is no Ghassan Issa Moh. 

There is Walid Daoud?

A. If you can show me one. I don't recall seeing his name. 

I recall seeing this name, but I don't recall seeing the other 

name. If you would like to show me, maybe it will refresh my 

memory. 

MR. WESTFALL: May I have a moment, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Let me get back to you on it.

A. Okay. Sorry about that.

Q. No. Wait a minute. Here it is right on top. 

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: I don't know who that individual is. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) So as of 9/20/99, somebody is signing 

these same fund transfers that Ghassan was signing, and you 

don't know who that is and he is signing as director?

A. I don't know who that is, and I don't know -- I haven't 

analyzed it, so I don't know if he was also signing as 

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director at the same time that Ghassan Harmas was. I don't 

know. I don't know who that individual is. 

MR. WESTFALL: May I approach again, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Aside from the fact that you don't 

recognize his signature, does the document bear an HLDL bates 

number?

A. It was.

Q. And does this appear to be a document in you all's 

possession since 2002?

A. It was.

Q. And it deals with the Orphan Care Society?

A. Yes. That is correct.

Q. And has the Orphan Care Society stamp on it?

A. It is not translated so I can't identify it as a stamp, 

but it does relate to the Bethlehem Orphan Care Society. That 

is what it says.

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, may I move this into 

evidence as the next -- as our next number, whatever that may 

be? No. 1404. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we have no objection to 

this.

THE COURT: That is admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) And there is Walid Daoud, and this is 

9/20/99. True?

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A. That is what it says.

Q. Let's go to Islamic Science and Culture really fast. 

Now, this is your summary chart Islamic Science and Culture. 

Right?

A. That is correct.

Q. And looking in No. 28 here, Islamic Science and Culture 

in the InfoCom list, it does not seem to have a membership 

list in there. 

A. I don't believe that it did.

Q. During -- We have four people on here, including Jamil 

Hammami, Ibrahim Abu Salem, Jamal Tawil, Abdel Azim Salhab. 

A. Correct.

Q. And during the relevant time period from 1995 to 2001, 

how many members were on the Islamic Science and Culture zakat 

committee? How large was the membership?

A. I don't recall. There were a few other members, but I 

don't recall how many. Like I said, I focused on the ones 

that the HLF was primarily dealing with.

Q. I will tell you what. I am going to put a checkmark over 

Jamil Hamami. We have talked about him a lot during this 

trial. Right?

A. We have.

Q. Is there anything in the search warrant material that 

shows -- I am kidding. 

Ibrahim Abu Salem, it looks like he is in the book.

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A. Yes. And he was also in one of these deportee 

videotapes, but I did not include it on here.

Q. Jamal Tawil?

A. He is listed as one of the deportees.

Q. Abdel Azim Salhab?

A. Nothing.

Q. Let's talk about Ramallah. And Ramallah is another zakat 

committee that the membership list is not given in this book. 

Right? This InfoCom No. 28?

A. I believe there is one individual referenced on that one.

Q. Mahmoud Al Rohmi?

A. Yes. I believe he is listed as a contact.

Q. Right. And I take it that you don't know how many 

members there actually were on the zakat committee during 1995 

to 2001?

A. No.

Q. And then you have got seven individuals here. And 

talking about the search warrant evidence, the evidence that 

Mahmoud Rohmi is connected to Hamas? 

A. Yes.

Q. Yes?

A. I am sorry. Will you ask me the question again? 

Q. Any connection to Hamas in the search warrant material?

A. Yes, in the search warrant material; not admitted.

Q. Hosni Abu Awad?

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A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Omar Hamdan?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Mahmoud Mosleh?

A. We had the videotape and also he is referenced in the 

article about Hamas there.

Q. Darwish Zein?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Hamza Deeb?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Fadel Hamdan?

A. Actually he was referenced in HLF Search No. 109 omitted 

from the chart, hopefully to be corrected.

Q. Okay. So three of seven on this form here. True?

A. Out of the search warrant evidence, yes.

Q. Okay. I am going to go to Nablus now. And Nablus is 

InfoCom Search No. 28, the InfoCom list, this is page 22. And 

these are the members of the committee as they existed when 

this list was made. Does that look familiar?

A. It does.

Q. And the ones I have highlighted are the four that you 

have on your summary chart--Hamed Bitawi, Abdel Rahim Hanbali 

Adly Rifat Yaish, Mohamed Radi Hanbali, and all four of those 

are on there. Right?

A. That is correct.

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Q. Now, during the relevant time period from '95 to 2001, I 

assume that you cannot tell us exactly how many members were 

on this committee. 

A. No.

Q. Search warrant materials. Hamed Bitawi, yes or no?

A. A lot of it, yes.

Q. Abdel Rahim Hanbali?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Adly Rifat Yaish?

A. He was one of the deportees.

Q. Mohamed Radi Hanbali?

A. Not in the search warrant material.

Q. Now, these other members -- This is page 22 out of 

InfoCom No. 28. All right? Clerk at the Ministry of 

Agriculture, that would be a position with the PA, wouldn't 

it?

A. I would be guessing if I answered that question.

Q. Okay. Well, the Director of the Public Works. Sounds 

like a government entity of some sort, doesn't it?

A. It does.

Q. Vice chairman of the al-Tadhamon Islamic Clinic and 

Agricultural Engineer. Merchant. And it is not surprising to 

see folks like this on these zakat committees, is it--folks 

with -- kind of like the people in their communities. It is 

kind of the pillars of their communities, I guess. 

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A. Really I don't know how to answer that question if it is 

surprising or not.

Q. We can look at some other lists and see if it comes up. 

I am going to go to Tulkarem now. 

A. Okay.

Q. And this is page 117 out of the InfoCom list. It is 

another one that has a membership list the Tulkarem zakat 

committee. And their membership list goes two pages. There 

is actually 16 members on it. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. And the ones I have highlighted, five are the ones you 

have on your summary chart. Hosni Khawaja, Hamed Qadan, Bilal 

Khamis, Amar Badawi, Bashar Al Karami, Fathi Qarawi, Abdel 

Karim Abu Samaha -- Am I correct you also do not know exactly 

how many members there were on this zakat committee from '95 

to 2001?

A. I don't know.

Q. Hosni Khawaja, yes, no?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Hamed Qadan?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Bilal Khamis?

A. He was identified in the Elbarasse letter.

Q. Amar Badawi?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

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Q. Bashar Al Karami?

A. He was a deportee.

Q. Fathi Qarawi?

A. He was a deportee.

Q. Abdel Karim Abu Samaha?

A. Well, he was listed on I think Ashqar No. 3. If we want 

to pull it up, it was a list of other Hamas members. For the 

sake of this let's just say nothing in the search warrant 

material.

Q. The other 11 members of the committee, do you know 

anything about them?

A. I know that the No. 1 died in like '90 or '91.

Q. Okay. The president?

A. Yes. I have seen bank records indicating that he died 

very early on the -- in the time period we are talking about 

here, '91.

Q. Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron?

A. Okay.

Q. The Islamic Charitable Society of Hebron, I also assume 

you don't know the exact number of members during the relevant 

time period. 

A. No.

Q. In InfoCom No. 28 it shows nine members and then four of 

those are on your summary chart. So Abdel Khaleq Natshe?

A. Yes.

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Q. Hashem Natshe?

A. Yes.

Q. Mohammed Eid Misk?

A. Not in the search warrant material.

Q. Kamal Al Tamimi?

A. Yes.

Q. Adnan Masouwda?

A. Yes.

Q. Adel Juneidi?

A. He was one of the deportees, yes.

Q. Saleh Salim Natshe?

A. Nothing in the search warrant material.

Q. Azzam Salhab?

A. Yes.

Q. Mustafa Shawar?

A. Yes.

Q. Talal Sadr?

A. Yes.

Q. And those yes answers on six of them were based upon the 

deportee status. Right?

A. If you will scroll back up I can tell you for sure, but a 

number of them were deportees. For some -- Of the other ones, 

there were additional information like they were identified as 

"ours" in that Elbarasse letter.

Q. And you can consider them Hamas if that Elbarasse letter 

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said they are "ours"?

A. I believe that is a connection to Hamas, yes.

Q. Okay. Here is the -- That is the deportee line. Right?

A. You forgot one over, Abdel Khaleq Natshe. But some of 

those people had other information linking them to Hamas as 

well.

Q. Now, can you --

A. In the search warrant material. Sorry. 

Q. And you already said you don't know how many folks were 

actually on the committee during the relevant time period. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay. The last one is Qalqilya. Now, in InfoCom No. 28, 

the list, there is members of the committee here. 

A. Yes.

Q. And there are five on that and five on this page. There 

is ten members on this committee. Does that ring a bell?

A. Yes, I recognize that.

Q. And your summary chart you have three, one of whom also 

appears on that list. Right?

A. Actually two of them appear on that list. The first guy 

on that list was Ibrahim Abdel Rahim Mostafa. He is also 

known as Ibrahim Dawoud. You will see that in some of the 

banks records. So No. 1 is also on there, so there are two on 

the list that are on this chart. 

Q. Then I will fix that. And yes or no?

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A. No.

Q. Ibrahim Zahran?

A. No.

Q. Riyad Rashi Walwil?

A. Can you scoot it over to make sure he was not a deportee? 

No. 

MR. WESTFALL: May I have just a moment? 

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. WESTFALL: Pass the witness.

THE COURT: Let's go ahead and break here for the 

day. Be back at 9:00 in morning. Please recall the 

instructions we have been over. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: All right. 9:00. Maybe we need to be 

here a little early.

MR. JONAS: There is the issue of the Bruce Hoffman 

issue.

THE COURT: He is going to come on tomorrow? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: And then I guess some of the outstanding 

issues with respect to the exhibits.

MR. WESTFALL: Yes. 

THE COURT: Okay. Better be here at 8:30.

MR. WESTFALL: I didn't put any in through her 

because we didn't have a chance to talk about -- The ones I 

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want to put in are pretty non-controversial.

THE COURT: But they are objecting to them? 

MR. WESTFALL: They are objecting to them.

MR. WESTFALL: That is just by way of saying it 

shouldn't take us long, even though they are pretty thick.

MS. MORENO: Has the Court been provided with a 

transcript of that exhibit? 

THE COURT: I haven't seen it yet. Do you have 

that, Jennifer? 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, just I want to renew my 

collateral estoppel motion based on Mr. McBrien's testimony 

because it was solely about the '95 designation executive 

order; for severance and mistrial, but also mistrial for two 

aspects of his testimony. The one was about "connected to it" 

is a misstatement of the law. Even though Mr. Cline managed 

to correct it, by the end I think it sowed confusion. 

And the second part is that by putting the burden on the 

donor, which is nowhere in the law, in the material support 

law, to vet the destination of the money relieves the 

Government, dilutes the burden of proof, reverses it in fact. 

And for those reasons I move for mistrial or to strike 

his testimony with an instruction.

THE COURT: Those requests are denied, the mistrial 

and motion to strike.

MS. MORENO: May I ask a question about scheduling? 

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Does the Court intend to go past 5:00? If you do, I just need 

to change my flight schedule.

THE COURT: You might want to change your flight 

schedule. Well, not too much past 5:00. We have some 

individuals coming in tomorrow that I will need to talk to, 

one of the matters we have been dealing with. 

MS. MORENO: Yes.

THE COURT: They are coming in, so I don't want to 

keep them waiting too long. So we probably will break 5:00 to 

5:30, like today.

MR. DRATEL: Does Your Honor want to hear from us on 

that issue? 

THE COURT: Yes, at some point we will need to. 

MR. DRATEL: Just let us know. We are available. 

THE COURT: All right. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Your Honor, I would just like to 

join in all of the motions that Mr. Dratel made, except the 

collateral estoppel which doesn't apply to my client.

MS. CADEDDU: Ditto, Your Honor.

MS. MORENO: Also.

MR. WESTFALL: I thought it was automatic.

MS. HOLLANDER: I am not sure that it is automatic 

when it is specific to his client.

THE COURT: We had talked about objections. I don't 

know that we talked about motions for mistrial.

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MR. WESTFALL: For the record, I will join.

THE COURT: Those are denied. 

Anything from the Government? 

MR. JONAS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Be here at 8:30 in the morning. 

(End of day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 06/05/2009

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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