IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ) CAUSE NO. 3:04-CR-240-P

 (

vs. )

( SEPTEMBER 24, 2008 

) DALLAS, TEXAS 

HOLY LAND FOUNDATION, ET AL ( 9:00 A.M.

______________________________________________________________

VOLUME 8 OF 37

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STATEMENT OF FACTS 

BEFORE THE HONORABLE JORGE A. SOLIS

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

and a jury

______________________________________________________________

A P P E A R A N C E S

 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: UNITED STATES ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

 1100 COMMERCE, 3RD FLOOR 

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 BY: MR. JIM JACKS

 MR. BARRY JONAS

 MS. ELIZABETH SHAPIRO

FOR THE DEFENDANT: FREEDMAN, BOYD, HOLLANDER, 

(SHUKRI ABU BAKER) GOLDBERG & IVES, P.A. 

 20 FIRST PLAZA, SUITE 700 

 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87102 

 BY: MS. NANCY HOLLANDER

 MS. TERESA DUNCAN

Shawn M. McRoberts, RMR, CRR

Federal Official Court Reporter

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FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF JOSHUA L. DRATEL

(MOHAMMAD EL-MEZAIN) 14 WALL STREET, 28TH FLOOR

 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10005

 BY: MR. JOSHUA DRATEL

 MR. AARON J. MYSLIWIEC

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF MARLO P. CADEDDU

(MUFID ABDULQADER) 3232 McKINNEY AVENUE, SUITE 700

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75204

 BY: MS. MARLO P. CADEDDU

FOR THE DEFENDANT: LAW OFFICE OF LINDA MORENO

(GHASSAN ELASHI) P.O. BOX 10985

 TAMPA, FLORIDA 33679

 BY: MS. LINDA MORENO

 JONES DAY

 555 CALIFORNIA ST., 26TH FLOOR

 SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94104

 BY: MR. JOHN D. CLINE

FOR THE DEFENDANT: WESTFALL, PLATT & CUTRER

(ABDULRAHAM ODEH) ONE SUMMIT AVENUE, SUITE 910

 FORT WORTH, TEXAS 76102

 BY: MR. GREG WESTFALL

COURT'S LAW CLERK: MS. JENNIFER HELMS

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242.

COURT COORDINATOR: MS. BRENDA WEBB

 1100 COMMERCE, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER: SHAWN M. McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

 1100 COMMERCE STREET, RM. 1654

 DALLAS, TEXAS 75242

 (214) 753-2349

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INDEX

EXAMINATION

Witness Name Page

MATTHEW LEVITT

Cross By MS. CADEDDU............................................ 27

Cross By MR. DRATEL............................................. 30

Redirect By MR. JONAS........................................... 61

Recross By MR. CLINE............................................ 79

Recross By MS. HOLLANDER........................................ 83

MARCIAL PEREDO

Direct By MS. SHAPIRO........................................... 88

PAUL MATULIC

Direct By MR. JONAS............................................. 97

Cross By MR. MYSLIWIEC.......................................... 107

ATEF SHAFIK

Direct By MR. JACKS............................................. 112

Government's Exhibits

Government's Exhibits Page

Mushtaha House No. 1 91

Mushtaha House No. 1 96

Hamas Letter No. 1 100

Hamas Letter No. 2 103

Defendants' Exhibits

Defendants' Exhibits Page

No. 1054 82

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THE COURT: Good morning. 

MS. CADEDDU: I believe we have a couple of pending 

issues. We had the motion to compel and we had the hearsay 

issue as well, so I wanted to ask you about those.

THE COURT: I think it is hearsay. In looking at 

the issue and discussing it and thinking about it, I know, Mr. 

Cline, you were saying the evidence is what the witness is 

going to say, but you are offering an out-of-court statement, 

and your argument for why it is not hearsay is that it is not 

hearsay because it is offered for the truth, which I think 

that is the only way you can go. There is no exception that 

applies that I can see. 

And you are offering the statement by this person, 

Ms. Roy, that Doctor Levitt's methodology is not valid, and 

you are offering it for the truth of that assertion. I think 

it is hearsay and I think you are offering it for that 

purpose. I think you are entitled to get into that, but in 

the proper form, not through hearsay, and I think this is 

hearsay. 

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I just want to make it 

clear for the record that I am impeaching Doctor Levitt with 

his statement that he made that his research methodology is 

the gold standard and that it has been described by others as 

the gold standard.

THE COURT: I understand the impeachment, and you 

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are entitled to impeach, but I don't think you can do that 

through hearsay. That is not an exception to the hearsay 

rule. That is hearsay, so you can't get into that specific 

statement.

Remind me, Ms. Hollander, of this issue on the Islamic 

University of Gaza, this document that you sought to 

introduce, your Defense Exhibit No. 1094, and then you wanted 

only a portion of it? 

MS. HOLLANDER: I am happy to just have the portion 

that I read in, Your Honor, and the part at the top that just 

says where it came from, that it was the United States cable.

THE COURT: And what is the issue you are wanting to 

get it in for? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Doctor Levitt testified on direct 

that the University of Gaza was founded by Hamas leaders, and 

this is a cable from the United States saying -- basically 

impeaching that. It is also an admission from the United 

States, and it is not hearsay under 803(8)(C), because they 

are factual findings. There is no issue as to its 

authenticity. The Government stipulated to that. 

So the only issue would be whether it is hearsay, and it 

is not hearsay for the two reasons that I mentioned. First of 

all, it is an admission of the party opponent. When the 

government makes statements in a case in which it is the party 

opponent, they are admissions. And it is clearly the United 

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States government, or alternatively 803(8)(C). 

But since it does have other things in it, and I 

understand that, I am quite content to take it back and redact 

it just to the statement that I admitted plus where it came 

from.

THE COURT: That paragraph No. 2? You don't that 

have before you? 

MS. HOLLANDER: But I know where it is. It is 

paragraph No. 2.

THE COURT: Founded in 1978, that statement? 

MS. HOLLANDER: Right. Just exactly what I read. 

And then just at the top of the page where it says where it 

came from.

THE COURT: Right. 

And Mr. Jonas? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, we don't know the origin of 

the report. In other words, we don't know if that in fact is 

an investigation -- I am paraphrasing the rule. I don't have 

it right now. An investigation conducted pursuant to the 

authority where the individual was that created it. This 

could be just an opinion of the person who wrote the cable. 

We don't know that. So we still think it is hearsay. And let 

them call someone from the USAID to testify about it.

THE COURT: Well, I think it is sufficient on its 

face to indicate it is some kind of government report, and 

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they were charged apparently or tasked with this 

responsibility. I think it is admissible. So I will overrule 

the objection, and you can have that paragraph 2, and then the 

top of that document as you have stated. 

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, the index? 

THE COURT: Yes, the index. Mr. Jacks, was there 

something you wanted to -- 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, just yesterday during cross 

examination by several of the Defense counsel, it seemed that 

before there would be a question there would be like this 

preamble or these statements that counsel would make before 

they would get to the question, not so much really directing 

the witness to anything they were about to ask him, but kind 

of a rambling statement. 

We would just ask the Court if we could just tighten it 

up a little bit and not have, you know, the lawyers making 

these statements about their feelings or just make a 

statement, and instead just get to the question and tighten up 

the cross examination. It is hard to describe, but I think 

you can recognize it when you see it.

THE COURT: And probably the best I can do is if you 

think some improper statement is being made, you probably just 

need to object at that time. Obviously counsel know the 

rules, but if you think there is something improper that is 

being stated, you just need to make an objection at that time 

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and I will give you a ruling. 

Ms. Duncan?

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I just wanted to alert you, 

we have some issues we would like to address to the Court in 

regard to a later Government witness, I think the witness that 

will be testifying after Doctor Levitt. We can address it 

then, but I just --

THE COURT: Do you expect he is going to come on 

this morning, or do you know? 

MS. SHAPIRO: Are we talking about Mr. Simon? 

MS. DUNCAN: No, Mr. Shafik.

MS. SHAPIRO: He will be coming on this morning, not 

immediately following Doctor Levitt. It will be Mr. Peredo 

will testify next and then Mr. Shafik. 

THE COURT: What is the issue with that -- 

MS. SHAPIRO: I am sorry. Two witnesses.

THE COURT: You still think we will get to him today 

before we break at 1:00. Okay. 

MS. DUNCAN: The issue is yesterday afternoon -- 

Mr. Shafik is the Government's translator, and he testified at 

the last trial about the process by which he translated the 

Government's various exhibits. And about a week ago the 

Government filed a supplemental expert notice designating 

Mr. Shafik as an expert witness. They said out of an 

abundance of caution, but it didn't result in surprise to the 

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Defense because he was going to be testifying to the same 

things he testified at the first trial, which is basically the 

correctness of his translation. 

Yesterday Mr. Jacks informed us that his testimony is 

going to go well beyond that, and that he is going to testify 

that in his opinion the frequency with which the Defendants 

and other speakers on tapes and telephone calls and documents, 

the frequency with which they praise God is evidence that they 

are, quote unquote, Islamists, so basically to politicize 

their religious speech. 

So he wanted to raise that issue before he testifies 

because we think it is improper in and of itself, and secondly 

that Mr. Shafik as a translator is not qualified to 

distinguish between a person who praises God as part of the 

Islamic faith and someone who is an Islamist. 

THE COURT: Some response? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, Mr. Shafik will testify that 

in his background -- He was born in Egypt. He is a native 

Arabic speaker. He has studied languages. He has a degree in 

British literature. And he has been around all cultures in 

Egypt, all different Arabic dialects.

In the conversations, the Defendants and others do make 

frequent statements "Praise God," you know, "Muhammad, blessed 

be his name," and other statements such as that, which are 

distinctive. And in fact, in a couple -- I believe in a 

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couple of the intercepted conversations, one of the speakers, 

I believe it is in the Philadelphia meeting, even makes the 

statement that, "How can we conceal who we are? Anyone that 

listens to us speak will know who we are and what we are 

about." And I am paraphrasing. 

But Mr. Shafik will testify that persons that speak in 

that fashion, just as this person that was intercepted 

recognizes, are persons that are Islamists, that believe in 

all of the principles and are strict observers of the Muslim 

faith, and that people that speak in that fashion are -- that 

is just without question. Anyone that comes in contact with 

them knows, if they speak in that fashion, that that is the 

type of person that they are. 

And, you know, as I said, it is raised by the evidence 

because the Defendants -- Excuse me. I believe it is actually 

an unindicted co-conspirator, but themselves make that comment 

that "the way we speak gives away who we are." And I just was 

going to ask him to explain that context.

THE COURT: Ms. Duncan? 

MS. DUNCAN: Your Honor, I mean, this is really an 

attack on the Muslim faith. One of the fundamental principles 

of Islam is that you praise God as often as you can. Muslims 

are required to pray five times a day to God. 

The passage that Mr. Jacks is referring to, I will read 

it to the Court, he says, "I mean, no matter what names you 

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will use, they will be revealed, because, my brother, you 

cannot hide a Muslim. A Muslim wants to pray." He is talking 

about being a Muslim. They are Muslims. He is not talking 

about being an Islamist. 

This is an effort to politicize these men's religious 

beliefs. I mean, the words that Mr. Jacks wants to turn into 

a political speech are, "God willing, by Ahmadi God, may God 

greet you, may God reward you." I mean, this is pure 

religion. It has nothing to do with politics. 

And I would note to the Court, to the best of my 

knowledge Mr. Shafik is not a practicing Muslim. He is a 

Christian. And so I just don't see how he is qualified to 

testify that someone that says "praise God" several times 

throughout the day is in fact not just an observant Muslim but 

is an Islamist. 

And, you know, in terms of the surprise, if he is allowed 

to testify to this, then we are going to need to bring in, you 

know, an expert, an emam to explain to the jury that this is 

an obligation on all Muslims; that prayer is not political 

speech, it is devotion to God. And it is really just improper 

in this case. 

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, what is the basis of his 

qualifications for reaching this opinion? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, as I said, he has lived in 

the Middle East until -- He has lived in Egypt until he was 27 

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or 28 years old. He has been around all cultures, all 

nationalities, he has gone to school with them, and he has, 

you know, extensive experience and has crossed paths with 

people and knows --

THE COURT: All right. I think I am getting the 

drift. You have to lay the predicate, obviously, when he is 

testifying. And before you get into the questions, be sure to 

approach the bench and I will give you a ruling on that. But 

I think I am going to need to hear the predicate. 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Your Honor, we just had that pending 

motion to compel production of the index.

THE COURT: Yes. Ms. Cadeddu raised that a minute 

ago. We will get to that. 

Any other issues that we need to address before we bring 

the jury in?

Ms. Cadeddu. 

MS. CADEDDU: Yes. I am going to let -- I don't 

know what you would like us to do, Your Honor. We are going 

to need the index to cross examine Doctor Levitt. 

THE COURT: And then your objection to the index is, 

to providing it, making it available is -- 

MR. JONAS: It is not something he has testified 

about. It is not something he has relied upon in his 

testimony. It is an index of documents. It is the documents, 

the items themselves, that is what he relied upon as the body 

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of his work. They are not entitled to it. Judge Fish 

addressed this issue in terms of what they are entitled to in 

regard to the Government's notice of the expert witness. And 

that is pretty much it, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Your Honor, I am sure you have 

looked back at Judge Fish's order and I went and looked at it 

after Mr. Jonas discussed it the other day. It is clearly 

about disclosure at the pretrial stage, and whether or not to 

disclose everything at that point rather than just a written 

summary. 

Here we are now at the trial stage. Rule 705 comes into 

play, and having access to the underlying data comes into 

play. And Mr. Levitt has testified about seeing these 

documents, about the fact that they are the basis of his 

opinion. And this index is something he reviewed in relation 

to those documents. 

Whether he said the word index specifically or not in his 

testimony here before this jury isn't the point. It is 

clearly a document that goes to these issues. 

THE COURT: Okay. Does somebody -- I think I am 

going to need someone, Defense counsel ask Doctor Levitt some 

questions about that index and whether he relied on just those 

types of issues to develop. I hear your argument, but I 

haven't heard any testimony to that effect.

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MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he did testify that the -- 

THE COURT: In the book.

MR. DRATEL: No. He testified here that the 

materials that were seized by the Israelis he relied on in 

reaching his conclusions. That is what the index is. So just 

to say, "I saw these documents and I have a list of them," is 

not to say that it is not part of his testimony. I think is 

parsing it beyond, which the Government is trying to do, is 

parsing it beyond reality. The fact is he relied on the 

materials that are in that index. That is what he is relying 

on -- 

THE COURT: That is what that is not clear to me, in 

fact. I don't think anybody made that link. He relied on 

some documents that were seized. I don't know that that is 

what is on the index, or if the index is more inclusive than 

that. I don't know any of that. 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Your Honor, there is one other 

thing. He testified specifically in his Daubert hearing that 

he relied on this index as source material. And so whether he 

has now put this issue before the jury I think is a separate 

point. He has --

THE COURT: I am not talking about before the jury. 

I need some more information before I can make a ruling on 

that issue. 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: I did cite to exactly where he 

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testified about this index in the transcript.

THE COURT: I still think you may be being 

overinclusive.

MS. CADEDDU: I want to make the point, Your Honor 

-- I have a different point to make about the index. I talked 

with Doctor Levitt about selection bias, and the index is 

going to be -- It is going to be, I suspect, I haven't seen 

it, but I suspect it is going to be more inclusive than the 

documents he chose to include. That actually goes directly to 

his bias. That tells me what selection bias there is. So I 

believe it is relevant for that purpose.

THE COURT: All right. 

Doctor Levitt, do you have this index available? 

THE WITNESS: I have the index, and I can explain it 

and maybe clarify a lot of what is going on.

THE COURT: If you would.

THE WITNESS: Sure. I don't know that I have seen a 

single document cited in that index. It is a very partial 

index in Hebrew.

THE COURT: And who prepared that index? 

THE WITNESS: I don't know.

THE COURT: You received it.

THE WITNESS: I received it from the Israeli 

government. I assume it was prepared by the people who 

actually seized the documents, which would be the Israeli 

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military, the IDF. I did not receive it from the IDF. It is 

also marked confidential and was given to me in that context. 

But I got this separate from those documents that I was 

able to review, seized documents. This is a completely 

separate issue. In that regard, all I have is this list that 

there were documents seized. I don't know that I have 

actually ever seen any one of those documents, and, therefore, 

I have not relied on the index in any testimony I have given 

in this trial. 

THE COURT: And so you were given the index, and 

then you were given access to some documents, or all 

documents. What were you giving access to? 

THE WITNESS: I was given access to some documents. 

There is a huge warehouse of documents, so seeing all is just 

not possible.

THE COURT: Right.

THE WITNESS: It was also relatively early on after 

they had been seized, so there hadn't been an opportunity to 

go through very many of them. 

And in a completely separate meeting, I think it was 

actually a completely separate trip--research for this book 

was over several years. It might have been separated by even 

a year or two. I think it was--I received this index, which 

was just a summary of material that had been seized from some 

of these various offices, specifically zakat committees, but I 

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was not given any of the underlying documents. 

THE COURT: That that index refers to? 

THE WITNESS: Correct. 

THE COURT: Just the index as a summary.

THE WITNESS: Correct. And the citation to the 

index in the book doesn't pretend to have seen any of the 

underlying documents. It cites to what types of materials 

were claimed to have been seized.

THE COURT: Okay. 

THE WITNESS: Not based on the summaries.

THE COURT: So you are saying you have not seen any 

of those documents that are referred to in that index.

THE WITNESS: Not no my knowledge. It is possible 

some of the documents that I have seen are on that index. 

There are no specific numbers. There is no identifier for the 

document. It is a very brief descriptor. It looks like a 

very initial index probably -- and sometimes it is very 

colloquial. It is typed up, but it is if at some point it is 

someone's notes as they were going through the material in the 

first iteration. So I don't know that it would even be 

possible to determine.

THE COURT: How long is this index? 

THE WITNESS: Like 20, 30 pages, I think.

THE COURT: And is the Government -- Are you 

treating this as classified information? 

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MR. JONAS: No, we are not treating it as 

classified.

THE COURT: You are just saying the Defense is not 

entitled to it.

MR. JONAS: Right.

THE COURT: And part of the concern I have, and of 

course this was raised again at the last minute, but Judge 

Fish's order dealt with it under Rule 16(a)(1)(G), which is 

what is required to be in the summary that you provide to 

Defense counsel, and he stated the summary was sufficient. 

There is a request for it under 16(a)(1)(E), the material 

documents.

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Also under 705.

THE COURT: I am not sure 705 does anything other 

than refer you back to the rules of discovery, and then 

whether you are entitled to that or not, I don't think 705 

gives you any additional grounds for entitlement to that. 

And so we have got -- We have this issue of whether they 

are entitled to it pursuant to Rule 16, not (G), not pursuant 

to this summary of a report that the Government has to provide 

that Judge Fish found was sufficient. They have moved away 

from that now and they are saying they are entitled to it, for 

one, 705 for cross examination purposes, and also under 16(E), 

that it is material to the Defense and that they are entitled 

to that. And you know, that has not been addressed. 

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It wasn't addressed in Judge Fish's order. I don't know 

whether that was raised before Judge Fish. In fact, your 

briefing that was filed that resulted in that order didn't 

mention -- it mentioned Rule 16 globally, but it didn't 

mention rule 16(a)(1)(E).

MR. JONAS: May I address that, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. JONAS: They haven't seen this list. They want 

to use this list to cross examine Doctor Levitt on his bias. 

They don't know what is in it. How can that be material to 

the Defense? How can they establish it is material to the 

Defense, which I believe they have to do, if they don't know 

what is on it. It is a fishing expedition and that is all it 

is.

THE COURT: Well, they asked him some questions at 

the Daubert hearing. Obviously they are entitled to explore 

it to try to make a determination -- somehow they have to be 

able to try to make this determination as to whether it is 

material.

MR. JONAS: Let them ask him questions about that 

here.

THE COURT: And that is where I was heading in terms 

of the questions you had asked. I don't think you are there, 

other than, "We would sure like to see it." And based on what 

Doctor Levitt stated, I don't think you are there.

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MR. JONAS: Your Honor, may I make one other point 

on that? 

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. JONAS: The Defense has inferred, if not 

actually said, that Doctor Levitt or the Israeli government 

are acting on behalf of the United States government, that 

this was a joint investigation, and that, therefore, this 

document has been in the possession of the U.S. government the 

whole time it is in the possession of Doctor Levitt. 

That is not the case. We have cooperated with -- the 

Israeli government has cooperated with us in response to 

Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty requests. This is not a joint 

investigation. Doctor Levitt obviously was not acting on 

behalf of the United States when he received this document up. 

Until Monday we have never seen it, never possessed it, 

and we just received it in response to the Defense request 

that Doctor Levitt bring it with him.

MS. CADEDDU: I would like to ask, because Mr. Jonas 

made a point that he wasn't operating on behalf of the U.S. 

government when he received it. If he could tell us when he 

received it, that would be helpful.

THE COURT: You are entitled to ask questions. If 

you want to ask him questions, go ahead. I invited counsel to 

ask questions about this issue.

MS. CADEDDU: So you would like to ask him now, Your 

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Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MS. CADEDDU: Doctor Levitt, when did you receive 

the index?

THE WITNESS: I don't know the date, but I can give 

you a time period because the research for the book was 

concluded -- I think the last major research trip was November 

2004, so that would have been the latest time I would have 

gotten it. I was in no way employed by the U.S. government at 

that time.

MS. CADEDDU: And you have characterized it, you 

said it is handwritten or typed?

THE WITNESS: It is typed.

MS. CADEDDU: It is typed. But you believe it to be 

an early index of the documents as they were initially gone 

through by the IDF?

THE WITNESS: That is right. I mean, it is clearly 

very, very partial. And some of the language is -- it is 

almost in shorthand, almost colloquial in terms of, you know, 

"found poster," a quick description of the poster, where it 

was found, this type of thing. It doesn't sound like, you 

know, a normal government document would sound. It sounds 

like this is one of their early efforts right after they took 

material to begin to catalog it. 

It also doesn't have, as I mentioned, any identifier. 

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Usually a document, like in court here, will say, you know, 

Exhibit 1-A or something so you can then refer back to it, and 

it doesn't have anything like that either.

MS. CADEDDU: Does it identify the documents seized 

by zakat committee, or how is it organized?

THE WITNESS: I believe it is by zakat committee. 

There might be other institutions also, but there are at least 

some zakat committees there.

MS. CADEDDU: And I am sorry. What was the second? 

You said there might be something else also. 

THE WITNESS: There might be some other institutions 

from which they took documents. They didn't only raid zakat 

committees. They also raided Palestinian Authority 

Intelligence offices, et cetera. I don't know if those are in 

there, too. It might only be zakat committees, and not all 

zakat committees either.

MS. CADEDDU: And is this like what we would think 

of as a chain of custody kind of report where it says where in 

the particular zakat committee a particular document was 

seized, like such and such an office or such and such a 

computer?

THE WITNESS: I don't recall them saying anything 

that specific. There will be a title of the name of the zakat 

committee, and then it will say something like, you know, "Box 

A," and a list of types of things, "Box B," a list of types of 

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things.

MS. CADEDDU: And those are the boxes that the --

THE WITNESS: I don't know. This is what it says.

MS. CADEDDU: Would you like to refer to the list 

while you are testifying?

THE COURT: I don't want to take the time to do 

that. Are you about finished with your questioning? 

MS. CADEDDU: Well, I would like to talk to Mr. 

Mysliwiec because he was the one who drafted the motion. 

THE COURT: Go ahead and do that, but I am going to 

go ahead bring the jury in. Are you prepared to continue your 

examination?

MS. CADEDDU: I am.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, may we approach just for 

one moment to save time? 

(The following was had at the bench.) 

MR. DRATEL: I wanted to take this up outside the 

hearing of the witness. My intention, part of my cross 

examination would be to talk about him receiving in 

confidence, not about discovery, not about obligations or 

turnovers, but just that he received this document in 

confidence from the Israelis, and some of the things he said 

about it is a partial list, the length of it. Nothing about 

discovery. I wanted you to know that -- 

THE COURT: Why would that be relevant as far as -- 

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MR. DRATEL: Bias and knowledge and reliance, you 

know, in terms of the basis for what he has had access to and 

things like that as an expert.

MR. JONAS: I guess whose bias? 

MR. DRATEL: His bias.

THE COURT: One at a time. We all know that. 

Because the Israeli government gave him access to it? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes.

THE COURT: Okay. Well, let me give that some 

thought. Are you coming up next? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes.

THE COURT: How much longer do you have? 

MS. CADEDDU: I am almost done, Your Honor.

MR. JONAS: If I can raise one point? 

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. JONAS: A question that Ms. Cadeddu asked the 

witness just now is about "Does this list show where the 

material was found?" That is a big cross examination of one 

of the witnesses the Government is going to call later, Major 

Lior. 

MR. DRATEL: I don't intend to ask --

MR. JONAS: If I can just finish. That is one of 

the big cross examinations of Major Lior. To me this is a 

transparent move to get this list so they can use it against 

Major Lior and not to question Doctor Levitt.

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THE COURT: That doesn't matter. The issue is are 

they entitled to it. Whatever use they think they need to 

make of it, we have to deal with that later. I don't think 

that is a basis for not letting them have it if they are 

otherwise entitled to. I just don't think you have shown that 

you are entitled to it.

MR. JONAS: I mean, it is just that they couched 

this whole argument in an attempt to show Doctor Levitt's 

bias, and that is why I raise that issue.

THE COURT: That is how they are trying to get the 

question before him, so that is still a separate issue.

MR. DRATEL: And I think that just -- Like I said, I 

am not going to go into a question of discovery or 

entitlement, but just that an expert who gets something in 

confidence from a party, you know, that is involved -- 

THE COURT: Do we know that others were not given 

access? 

MR. DRATEL: Yes, we will find out from subsequent 

witnesses. I can ask him. He knows that they don't broadcast 

it to the world. That is why he was given it in confidence. 

MS. HOLLANDER: He testified that the only reason 

the Center of Special Studies got it, that the way he knows 

that they are not really an NGO is that they must be 

affiliated with the Government, because otherwise they 

wouldn't have the documents. He said that. 

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MR. DRATEL: Other witnesses testified to that 

previously.

MR. CLINE: Just one other point. If Your Honor is 

inclined to deny the discovery request, and I understand that 

you are, because it is a relatively non-voluminous document, 

can we get a copy made part of the record under seal? 

MS. HOLLANDER: As a court exhibit.

THE COURT: Probably. I think that may be a good 

idea for appellate review. That may be the way to do it. Why 

don't you submit it to me in camera. I thought about doing 

that anyway, just to take a look at it.

MR. JONAS: It is in Hebrew, Your Honor.

THE COURT: No translation with it?

MR. JONAS: No.

THE COURT: Then I don't need a copy. I can't do 

anything with it. 

MR. DRATEL: But it should be part of the record.

MR. JONAS: That is fine.

THE COURT: We will make it part of the record. 

Let me give that some thought, the area of cross 

examination that you were referring to. Just let me know when 

you are ready, and then I will give you a ruling. 

(The following was had in open court.) 

THE COURT: If you will bring the jury in. 

(Whereupon, the jury entered the courtroom.)

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THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, good 

morning. We are ready to proceed.

Ms. Cadeddu? 

MS. CADEDDU: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) Doctor Levitt, I wanted to go back to 

something you talked about on direct examination yesterday, 

briefly. I think it was yesterday, maybe the day before. 

You talked about a number of books that you use in part 

of your -- as part of your research. And I think that you 

said what you do is you review them and test your conclusions 

against those books. Is that right? 

A. In part. The books are one part of the information you 

check your work against. The question I was responding to is 

a question are there other books on Hamas that you have read 

in the course of your research.

Q. Okay. And those would be books that you would rely on to 

vet your work?

A. In part. Some books are better than others especially, 

and on this subject some books are better than others. 

Q. Absolutely. One of the books I think you mentioned is a 

book buy a gentlemen Azzam Tamimi. Is that right.

A. That is right.

Q. In fact, I think I saw that Ms. Shapiro has it on her 

desk.

MS. CADEDDU: May I borrow that for a second? 

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Q. (BY MS. CADEDDU) This book, A History From Within, is 

that a pretty recent -- 

A. Within the past year or two, yes.

Q. Okay. And Mr. Tamimi talks -- You have read this book 

you said. Right?

A. I have.

Q. And in his introduction he talks about how there are some 

books written about Hamas that have a pro-Israeli bias and 

that rely largely on Israeli security documents. Do you 

remember that?

A. In his opinion, yes.

Q. And one of the books that he talks about that does that 

is yours. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, I also wanted to ask you about the Operation 

Defensive Shield documents that we talked about. And to 

orient us for a second, those are the documents seized by the 

IDF, the Israeli Defense Force, the army. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. In the incursion we talked about that began in 2002?

A. Correct.

Q. And those Operation Defensive Shield documents were 

seized by the army and then placed in a warehouse. Right?

A. At least some of them, yes.

Q. And that warehouse is located in Israel somewhere. Where 

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is it?

A. It is.

Q. Where? Which city?

A. It is near Tel Aviv. I don't know what it is called.

Q. And you have actually visited that warehouse. Right?

A. I was there once, yes.

Q. And it is, I guess, full of documents?

A. Yes. I don't know if it still is, but when I was there 

it was.

Q. It was when you were there?

A. Yes.

Q. Let's see here. And when did you go to that warehouse?

A. I don't recall the date, but it would have been between 

-- Obviously after the raids, which started in March or April 

2002. Probably 2003 or 2004.

Q. Okay. And at that time --

A. That was the period I was doing the research, so it was 

somewhere in there. I don't remember the date.

Q. I didn't mean to interrupt you. Are you done?

A. I am sorry. Yes.

Q. And you had access to at least some of the documents that 

were in that large warehouse. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Obviously not all of them, because it was full of 

documents. 

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A. Correct.

Q. You had access to them, but you didn't look at all of 

them is what I am saying. 

A. Correct. 

MS. CADEDDU: Pass the witness. 

THE COURT: Thank you. 

Mr. Dratel? 

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Dratel: 

Q. Good morning. 

A. Good morning.

Q. Now, when were you at the Department of Treasury?

A. 2005; November 2005 through January 2007.

Q. Okay. And your book was published in 2006?

A. It came out, yes, 2006. I forget the month.

Q. And you were working on it during that period?

A. No. I don't know what period you are talking about, but 

I was not working on it while I was at Treasury, other than I 

got permission to update the introduction conclusion per the 

elections that had just happened just to note that they 

happened.

Q. So the answer is yes. 

A. Only on that --

Q. That is part of the book. Correct?

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A. Yes. But I don't want you to think that I was working on 

the whole book.

Q. I didn't say the whole book. I said the book. Correct? 

That was the question--were you working on the book. 

A. That part, yes.

Q. Now, what is your customary hourly rate?

A. I am sorry? 

Q. What is your customary hourly rate?

A. $200 an hour. I presume you mean for trials like these.

Q. You said your hourly rate was higher, you testified on 

direct. 

A. No. What I testified is the going rate is much higher, 

and that my colleagues who do this think I am a fool for 

charging so little.

Q. How much do they charge?

A. As much as $500 an hour.

Q. Now, you testified about Mousa Abu Marzook. 

A. I did.

Q. As a Hamas official. 

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, he has a brother who is, or was, a general 

in the Palestinian Authority. Correct?

A. That is right. I don't know if he still is, but at least 

was.

Q. Yes. And the Palestinian Authority is the -- it still is 

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to a certain extent the government in the West Bank and Gaza. 

Correct? To a certain extent?

A. It gets complicated, doesn't it? 

Q. Yes.

A. Not in Gaza. Hamas is in control of Gaza now, but the 

Palestinian Authority is now again in control of the West 

Bank.

Q. And was in control of both for a long period of time from 

the Oslo Accords until 2005. 

A. That is right.

Q. And essentially the opposing organization of Hamas, the 

Palestinian Authority, for a long period of time. 

A. Yes.

Q. And would you agree it is very common in Palestinian 

circles within one family for there to be members of multiple 

factions?

A. Yes.

Q. In fact, there are many other examples that you could 

give. 

A. Yes.

Q. You also testified about Hassan al-Banna. 

A. Yes.

Q. Just to reorient the jury, he was the founder of the 

Muslim Brotherhood. 

A. Correct.

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Q. In 1928. 

A. Correct.

Q. And said on the first slide of your PowerPoint on the 

Hamas charter, the --

A. Yes.

Q. The charter refers to him as a martyr?

A. Correct.

Q. And he wasn't a suicide bomber. Correct?

A. No, he was not.

Q. He was, in fact, assassinated in 1949. 

A. I don't remember the year, but he was killed, yes.

Q. Was it in the 1940s?

A. Around then, yes.

Q. And, in fact, he was killed in Egypt on the street. 

A. That is right.

Q. And certainly not Hamas -- he was certainly not a Hamas 

person. 

A. No.

Q. And Izz el-Din al-Qassam, who you mentioned the military 

brigade of Hamas is named after. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And you testified about him as well on direct. And he is 

not a current figure either. Right?

A. No. He was killed.

Q. In 1936. 

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A. That is right, in one of these clashes with the British.

Q. By the British. He was killed by the British. 

A. That is right.

Q. At that time in 1930s, in '36 to the founding of the 

state of Israel, in fact, there were also Jewish groups acting 

in opposition, and sometimes violent opposition, to the 

British. 

A. That is right.

Q. You testified on direct about the Islamic Action Front. 

A. Correct.

Q. And again just to reorient the jury, that is an 

organization in Jordan. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. It is a political party in Jordan. 

A. It is the Muslim Brotherhood political party in Jordan.

Q. And, in fact, they hold seats in the parliament and run a 

slate of delegates or parliament candidates -- 

A. They do.

Q. -- in the elections, and some of them have won. 

A. I am sorry. I feel like I am interrupting. I don't know 

when to answer you.

Q. Some of them have won and then sit in parliament. 

A. Correct.

Q. And Jordan is a country that is at peace with Israel?

A. Since 1995.

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Q. And which has diplomatic relations with Israel?

A. Yes.

Q. And the Muslim Brotherhood operates openly in Jordan as 

the Islamic Action Front. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Yet Hamas was expelled from Jordan. 

A. Correct.

Q. And remains in that capacity; not permitted in Jordan. 

A. Correct.

Q. Take Syria, by contrast. Khalid Mishal, who you 

described as the head of the political wing of Hamas, he 

resides in Syria. Correct?

A. He does.

Q. And Hamas has an office in Syria, essentially?

A. It does.

Q. Yet the Muslim Brotherhood is outlawed in Syria. 

Correct?

A. I believe they are banned. I don't know if it is by law 

or --

Q. In fact, it is a capital offense, is it not?

A. I don't know.

Q. In fact, in 1980, the Syrians razed, when I say razed, 

R-A-Z-E-D, wiped out virtually an entire city to try to wipe 

out the Muslim Brotherhood. 

A. They wiped out --

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THE COURT: Mr. Dratel, I don't understand why this 

kind of detail is going to be helpful here about Hamas. And I 

understand we had to get into some mention of that, but we are 

going into a lot of detail about issues that I don't see 

ultimately is going to help the jury -- 

MR. DRATEL: I will move on, Your Honor. He is 

talking about Muslim Brotherhood in his -- 

THE COURT: Yes, but we are getting way beyond just 

mentioning them and describing them.

MR. DRATEL: Okay.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) You talked about Muslim Brotherhood 

philosophy. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you talked about jihad and the two types of jihad. 

A. Correct.

Q. And in fact, the Muslim Brotherhood philosophy of jihad 

is one that is more oriented towards personal betterment. 

Correct?

A. It has two halves to it, and the first half is to 

personal betterment and returning to traditional adherence to 

the faith, and then the second phase, by their ideology, would 

be the more violent jihad against the perceived enemies of 

Islam.

Q. And one of the objections of some terrorist groups is 

that that will never happen, that first part, so that it will 

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never get to the violent jihad because the Uma, the Muslim 

world, will never return in a timely fashion; that it was too 

slow. Correct. 

A. Again, I don't think it is the never. I think it is the 

timely fashion. And not only that, but that by participating 

in the more militant jihad, that can bring people, by this 

ideology, closer to their personal improvement as well by 

flipping the order.

Q. But the principle Muslim Brotherhood jihad, the first 

jihad is personal betterment?

A. I describe it as returning to the faith, and I don't know 

that they describe that as a jihad.

Q. Haven't you testified to that in the past?

A. I don't know that I have.

Q. Okay. Did you testify last year, 2007, as follows, "In 

other words, the Muslim Brotherhood felt that it was incumbent 

upon Muslims to return to core elements of the faith for the 

Muslim nation, for the Uma, to return to the proper practice 

of Islam and they called that a jihad, in this context an 

effort at personal betterment"?

A. I don't know, but that sounds like something I would say. 

It is right.

MR. DRATEL: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Well, I don't think he is denying he 

said that. 

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MR. DRATEL: He said "I don't know." I want to make 

sure that is clear. 

THE WITNESS: I think I agreed with it. 

THE COURT: He said it sounded like something he 

would say, counsel.

MR. DRATEL: Can I just clear it up, Your Honor? 

THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: We want to see what this is, first, 

don't we? If this is what I said -- This is what I said.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Okay. So you agree that was your 

testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Now, with to Islamic organizations, religious 

organizations, in the occupied territories after 1967, you 

testified on direct about Israeli promotion of such 

institutions after 1967. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And, in fact, the number of mosques in the occupied 

territories, West Bank and Gaza, doubled between 1967 and 

1986. 

A. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but that sounds 

right.

MR. DRATEL: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Here is a copy of your book. 

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A. It is a pretty good source.

Q. I just want to make sure that is not just something that 

sounds right. This is something you wrote in your book. 

Correct? Page 24?

A. Let's see. Where are we looking here? 

Q. If you look at the end of that first long paragraph, 

there is a sentence that reads, "For example, Israeli 

authorities permitted the number of mosques in the Gaza Strip 

to double from 1967 to 1986." 

A. That is right.

Q. Okay. So you wrote that?

A. I did.

Q. And the civil administration -- Withdrawn. Israel ruled 

the occupied territories during that period until the Oslo 

Accords were implemented in '94-'95 by a civil administration 

and a military administration that ruled the occupied 

territories. 

A. Correct.

Q. And that civil administration, that Israeli civil 

administration sanctioned these religious organizations and 

their development. Sanction meaning they permitted them. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And one such institution was the Islamic Center that was 

founded by Sheikh Yassin. 

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A. That is right.

Q. And the Israeli Government sanctioned Dawa activity, what 

you called Dawa activities. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. By the way, you said a couple of times that you didn't 

speak Arabic, but I assume you don't read Arabic either. 

A. Correct.

Q. And just going back to the brotherhood for a second, 

Yasser Arafat was actually originally with the Muslim 

Brotherhood. Correct?

A. He was. He left, but he started off in the Muslim 

Brotherhood.

Q. And also the Muslim Brotherhood, you talked a little bit 

about how it operates, but in fact there is a substantial 

amount of autonomy for individual branches around the world in 

terms of each country. 

A. Yes.

Q. You testified on direct about the relationship between 

the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. And again, the 

Palestinian Authority is the governing body of West Bank and 

Gaza as a whole. Correct?

A. In general terms. Again, shifted back and forth, so --

Q. I am not talking about which party controls, but the 

actual governing body is the Palestinian Authority. 

A. Correct.

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Q. And for the first ten years of the Palestinian Authority 

it was run by Fatah, F-A-T-A-H?

A. Dominated by Fatah. There were others in there, too, but 

it was heavily dominated by Fatah.

Q. Right. And Yasser Arafat, who was the president of the 

Palestinian Authority until he died, was the first president, 

and president until he died, was the head of Fatah. 

A. That is right.

Q. And Fatah, as you mentioned, is what we call secular, 

non-religious government. Its party. 

A. The party, right.

Q. And as you said, between 1997 and 2001, I think you 

described it as a state of extreme confrontation with Hamas. 

A. Yes.

Q. And --

A. 2000 not 2001.

Q. And you have described the Fatah run Palestinian 

Authority during that period of time as infamously corrupt. 

Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that corruption included the inability to deliver 

appropriate services to the population. 

A. Yes.

Q. Social services. 

A. Yes.

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Q. And that contributed to the dire need that you 

acknowledge exists in the West Bank and Gaza. 

A. It is part of the problem.

Q. Right. So that even though there was a government other 

than Israel nominally in control of those areas, it still 

failed to deliver the necessary social services. 

A. That is right. And that is why the United Nations had to 

play such a prominent role.

Q. The United Nations has been doing that since 1948. 

A. In different ways. The U.N. support in the wake of the 

Oslo Accords was even more significant.

Q. But still not enough to meet the total need. 

A. I don't think so.

Q. And I think you have written in your book, and would you 

agree, that Hamas versus let's say Fatah it was really a 

struggle for the control of the Palestinian Authority for the 

government of the Palestinian territories? 

A. I wouldn't put it only that way because that is 

misleading, but part of their struggle was a political 

competition within the Palestinian political spectrum even as 

it was, you know, this violent activity as well.

Q. Right. But the Hamas goal is to supplant Fatah as the 

control of the Palestinian -- 

A. That is one of its goals on its road to its larger goal 

of --

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Q. I just asked if that was its goal with respect to the 

Palestinian Authority. 

A. That is one of its goals.

Q. You wrote another book previous to your book on Hamas. 

Correct?

A. More of a monograph, but yes.

Q. And in that book you discuss some of the other funding 

that was provided, particularly during the first Intifada. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And just to orient the jury again the time frame that we 

are talking about, 1988 to --

A. I do not know what you are referring to. You have the 

book in front of you, I don't, so you will have to lead me on 

what you are asking me.

Q. Sure, I will be happy to. Well, the Likud uprising is 

actually the second Intifada. 

A. Yes. Well, really Al-Aqsa Intifada.

Q. The Saudi government provides has provided extensive 

support financially to Palestinians in the context of that 

second Intifada. Correct?

A. For a period of time it did, primarily through Hamas.

Q. But you wrote, didn't you, that the Saudi Committee for 

the Support of the Al-Qud's uprising -- And again, the 

Al-Qud's uprising being the second Intifada. Right?

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A. Correct. That was the name of the committee.

Q. According to the website, the committee provided $5,333 

to the family of every Palestinian killed in the Intifada. 

A. Correct, through many of these charity committees.

Q. Right. Total disbursements of $133 million as of May 

2002. 

A. Again, I am assuming. I don't have the number.

Q. Do you want to see it? I would be happy to show it to 

you. 

A. That would be great.

Q. Page 82 where the post-it is. 

A. Thank you very much. Those are the right numbers.

Q. And if you keep it there -- And in fact, it also -- you 

also describe you say that Sheikh Yassin, the founder of 

Hamas, went on a fundraising tour in the Gulf states raised 

$300 million to $400 million?

A. $300 million to $400 million.

Q. Thank you. Now, also yesterday you testified that you 

had not -- have not visited any of the zakat committees. 

Correct?

A. I might have visited one a long time ago, but I have not 

done a study or toured them, no.

Q. Right. But didn't you testify last year, last July, July 

2007, when asked about visiting zakat committees, you said, 

"It raises an interesting point. I think I will next time I 

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go visit," meaning visit one. Do you remember giving that 

testimony?

A. No, but I could have.

Q. Let me show you. 

A. I am not contesting it.

Q. It is not a question of contesting. Let's get the facts. 

Please read the highlighted portion. Tell me whether you 

testified to it. 

A. That is.

Q. Okay. Thank you. And you have been to Israel and the 

West Bank since. Correct?

A. I have been to the West Bank once since then.

Q. Right.

A. For a day.

Q. Didn't go to the zakat committees. 

A. Didn't have the opportunity. I actually requested a 

meeting, but didn't have the opportunity.

Q. You testified on direct about Edward Said?

A. That is right.

Q. A Columbia professor. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Columbia University. 

A. That is right.

Q. But he was also an advisor to Yasser Arafat before the 

Oslo agreement. Right?

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A. At one point he was an adviser to Yasser Arafat, and then 

he was a critic of Yasser Arafat.

Q. I am asking before Oslo was he an advisor to Yasser 

Arafat?

A. I don't know the dates.

Q. Was it a fact that he left his advisorship over protest 

of Oslo?

A. I believe so.

Q. And he was not a supporter of violence. Right?

A. I couldn't hear you.

Q. He is not a supporter of violence, Edward Said. 

A. No.

Q. And you are aware that his conduct in throwing the 

stone -- Withdrawn. There was some testimony yesterday about 

him throwing a stone, and you were aware of that. You are 

aware also that there was a controversy at Columbia over that, 

and the University ended up defending him on the grounds of 

free expression. Right.

A. Actually I am not aware of that.

Q. You were testifying this morning about -- in response to 

Ms. Cadeddu, and also you testified on direct about certain 

books that you have read, and one is called Islamic

Fundamentalism in the West Bank and Gaza by Ziad Abu-Amr. 

Correct?

A. Correct.

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Q. And you describe that, not here but elsewhere, you have 

described that as perhaps the best book. 

A. One of them, yes.

Q. And you rely on it, obviously, in forming your research 

and forming your opinions, to a certain extent?

A. One of many sources.

Q. Yes. Let's talk about the first Intifada. And would you 

agree -- And let me just reorient again. The first Intifada 

is 1987-'88. Correct? It begins?

A. It begins in '87, '88.

Q. November '87, would you say?

A. Around then.

Q. And how long did it last?

A. Until really the onset of the Oslo Accords around '93.

Q. So it is really five, six years almost?

A. Correct.

Q. "The root causes of the uprising were embedded in 20 

years of Israeli occupation" --

MR. JONAS: I would object. He is reading from the 

book. The book is not evidence if he wants to ask Doctor 

Levitt as to his opinion.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor -- 

THE COURT: Before you read it, though, counsel, if 

you want to establish something you can do that, but you are 

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reading it before that is done. 

MR. DRATEL: I will be happy to do this at the 

bench -- He said -- I don't want to argue in front of the 

jury, so I will say he did say he relies on this book among 

others.

THE COURT: Do you want to show it to him? Before 

you start making those kinds of statements, lay a predicate.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) This is the book by Ziad Abu-Amr?

A. That is the book.

THE COURT: Show him the paragraph. Show him what 

you are specifically referring to.

THE WITNESS: Am I to read it or read it to myself.

THE COURT: Just to yourself.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, while he is doing that, I 

am relying on 803, I think it is -- 

THE COURT: In you can show that he relied on a 

specific, but not just showing that he read that book and 

generically relied. If you can show a specific reliance on a 

specific opinion, I think you are entitled to cross examine. 

That is my ruling, counsel. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) In your research, and obviously -- At 

the time of the first Intifada you were how old?

A. I was in college.

Q. All right. So did you rely on these types of historical 

commentaries and historical works in forming your opinions?

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A. About what? 

Q. About the Intifada, about everything that you do in your 

work. 

A. I rely on historical accounts of those events. I wasn't 

there.

Q. Okay. And this is an historical account of the Intifada. 

Correct?

A. It is an academic's account. He is also a player. He is 

not just an academic. He is a Palestinian politician. But 

that would be an account that would be worth reading. It 

would be one side of the story, but it would be worth reading 

that side of the story.

Q. So do you agree that the root causes of the uprising were 

embedded in 20 years of Israeli occupation and Israeli 

policies aimed at undermining the material and national 

existence of the Palestinians in their own land?

A. I think that was a part of it.

Q. And that the Palestinians believe that under the guise of 

maintaining security, Israel had pursued a host of policies 

detrimental to Palestinian society?

A. That Palestinians believe that? Yes.

Q. That Israel had confiscated Arab land?

A. Again, this is under the -- continues under the 

Palestinians believed, yes.

Q. Israeli had not confiscated Arab land?

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A. I am talking about how he is writing here.

Q. But do you agree with that, that Israel confiscated Arab 

land?

A. There is disputed land. There is some land Israeli 

actually confiscated, other land that --

Q. So that is yes. That is yes. You said there is some 

confiscated. That is yes. 

A. Some.

Q. Okay. And that Israel had launched an aggressive 

settlement policy that left the West Bank and Gaza fragmented 

both geographically and demographically. 

A. I am sorry. What is the question? 

Q. Do you agree with that?

A. I agree that this is his perspective.

Q. So you don't agree -- 

A. I don't agree that it is a legitimate perspective.

Q. You don't think it is a legitimate perspective. 

A. This is a conflict. There are two sides to this 

conflict. So if I were studying these events that I didn't 

participate to, I would read his Palestinian version and take 

that very much into account, I would read Israeli versions, 

too. But I wasn't there. This is one reliable Palestinian 

version.

Q. And would you say that Israeli policies in its occupation 

of the West Bank and Gaza resulted in loss of life, 

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imprisonment, detention, house or town arrests, demolition of 

dwellings, deportation -- 

MR. JONAS: We object on relevance. We are now 

getting into politics that Your Honor said we don't need to 

get into. 

THE COURT: Well, I still have a problem just 

reading out of a book that is not in evidence, counsel.

MR. DRATEL: I am asking if he agrees with a 

person --

THE COURT: You are still reading from a book that 

is not in evidence, which is hearsay, and then you are 

asking -- It is hearsay, counsel. That is my ruling. I know 

you disagree, but that is my ruling.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Now, the second Intifada begins really 

September 28th, 2000. Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And it really began as a result of a visit -- Withdrawn. 

Ariel Sharon was a candidate at the time for the Israeli prime 

ministership. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. And he arranged for a visit to the Temple mount in 

Jerusalem. Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. For September 28, 2000. 

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A. That is right.

Q. And that site is an extraordinarily holy site for 

Muslims. Right? 

A. Muslims and Jews.

Q. Actually my question was about Muslims. 

A. And I am correcting you.

Q. No, the question was is it --

THE COURT: Counsel, that is arguing. He has 

answered it. He said it was Muslims and Jews. That is his 

answer. Quit arguing.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) And he was accompanied by about a 

thousand police officers?

A. I don't know how many, but I imagine it was a lot because 

of the sensitivity of the site.

Q. For Muslims. 

A. And Jews.

Q. But Sharon's visiting would not be sensitive if it were a 

holy site for Jews. Right? If it was just a holy site for 

Jews, it wouldn't be a sensitive issue, would it?

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, objection; relevance. 

MR. DRATEL: It is his answer, Your Honor.

THE COURT: He didn't say it was just a holy site 

for Jews.

MR. DRATEL: No, but I am saying he said it was a 

sensitive -- He said that police were there because it was 

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sensitive. I want to get why it was sensitive.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) It was sensitive because it is such a 

holy site for Muslims. 

A. Because the part of the site he was going to is where the 

Muslim mosques are, and is especially sensitive for Muslims.

Q. And the second Intifada started after that. Correct?

A. I don't want to leave the impression that that is what 

caused this Intifada. It was but one event. But it did then 

follow on the heels of that and other events.

Q. And within three months, by the end of that year, 2000, 

there were 325 Palestinians dead. Right?

A. There were dead. I don't know the number.

Q. And 36 Israelis?

A. Again, there were dead on both sides, more Palestinians. 

I don't know the numbers.

Q. And more Palestinians injured. 

A. Probably.

Q. In the order of 10 to 20, 30 times --

THE COURT: We are getting into a lot of the 

politics we discussed yesterday. Yes, sir, it is.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) You talked about the deportation of 

about 400 people from Israel in November of 1992. Correct? 

And you mentioned that international aid organizations came to 

assist those deportees in Lebanon. 

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A. That is right.

Q. Including the Red Cross. 

A. That is right.

Q. And another book that you talked about as one of the 

valuable books I think yesterday, and you have testified it is 

a valuable book is the book by the two Israeli scholars, you 

mentioned Shaul Mishal and Auraham Sela. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And you rely on that book as well?

A. In part.

Q. And would you agree with them that the deportees included 

every segment of Palestinian society?

A. I don't know they included every segment of Palestinian 

society. It certainly was dominated by Hamas and Islamic 

jihad.

Q. According to Israel. I mean, these are two scholars you 

rely on. They don't agree with that. Correct?

A. Scholars frequently don't agree, and I don't have it in 

front of me and --

Q. I will show it to you. Thank you very much. Why don't 

you read that sentence to yourself. 

A. He doesn't disagree with me. 

Q. I am sorry?

A. He doesn't disagree with me.

Q. He doesn't?

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A. No.

Q. Don't they say -- 

THE COURT: Counsel, how is this not hearsay? You 

are reading from a book that is --

MR. DRATEL: He just said -- 

THE COURT: I know, but you started it off by asking 

him about it, and you are offering that for the truth. It is 

a book that is not in evidence.

MR. DRATEL: He is claiming it is not in the book, 

Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) But don't they say -- 

THE COURT: No. You are turning right around and 

doing what I am questioning you about.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) So you are saying -- 

THE COURT: No, sir. I am trying to get an answer 

as to why that is not hearsay.

MR. DRATEL: I am going to ask a different question, 

Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) So you would disagree that they came 

from every segment of Palestinian society?

A. No.

Q. Oh, you don't disagree with that?

A. No.

Q. Okay. And did they say that -- Withdrawn. 

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MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I am --

THE COURT: That issue? Go ahead.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Now, when you -- On one of your trips to 

Israel you received from the Israelis an index to some of the 

-- Withdrawn. You received an index to documents seized as 

part of the Operation Defensive Shield raids. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And is that a very partial index, would you say?

A. It seems to be. It must be because it is not long enough 

to be all inclusive.

Q. It is 20 to 30 pages, just that index you have. 

A. Yeah.

Q. And it is in Hebrew. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And you can read it and understand it. 

A. Most of it. I am not perfectly fluent, but I get 

through.

Q. You didn't have a translated. 

A. I never used it in any detailed sense. I never had the 

need. 

Q. It is cited in your book. Right?

A. In a very particular and cursory context, yes.

Q. And that is not a list that is available on the web or 

that the Israeli government has made public. Correct?

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A. I don't know. Not to my knowledge.

THE COURT: You are going exactly where you said you 

were not going to go.

MR. DRATEL: No.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, may I -- 

THE COURT: Approach the bench.

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

THE COURT: Now, I understand you are going to try 

to question him. You asked him too many questions about that 

index because it is not in evidence. You got the answer that 

he got information that they didn't make available to other 

scholars, but I don't want anything hinting that you don't 

have it.

MR. DRATEL: I apologize.

THE COURT: That is where you are heading with that. 

MR. DRATEL: Where I am heading -- My next question 

was "They gave it to you confidentially." That was my next 

question. I wasn't going anywhere else.

THE COURT: Okay. That is fine. I don't want to 

get into anything that somehow you all have been deprived of 

something. Discovery is not an issue.

MR. DRATEL: Absolutely not.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, as long as I am up here, I 

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am not asking you to revisit any of your rulings, but I think 

you got the idea that Mr. Dratel was doing something really 

wrong by asking him about those books. And I am not asking 

you to revisit it, but I do want to call your attention to 

this.

THE COURT: That is if he recognizes this as a 

learned treatise.

MR. DRATEL: Or periodical or other thing.

MR. CLINE: I think he did recognize it as a learned 

treatise, both of those books. The reason --

THE COURT: If admitted. 

MR. CLINE: The reason I bring this up -- 

THE COURT: But you are reading from it before you 

are admitting anything. You are going into any questioning.

MR. DRATEL: I am saying if he relied on it that you 

can read it.

THE COURT: If it is admitted. 

MR. DRATEL: It is not if admitted.

MS. HOLLANDER: I think the way you are supposed to 

do it, you ask them if you relied on this -- 

THE COURT: Without reading it first. You don't 

read it first.

MR. DRATEL: I did get him to say he relied on it.

THE COURT: He said he read it. He did not say he 

relied on it. 

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MR. DRATEL: He said he relies on all the sources.

MS. HOLLANDER: If he says he relied on it, then you 

can read it.

MR. CLINE: And it is not relying on it. It is 

whether it is established as a reliable authority by the 

testimony of the admission of the witness.

MR. DRATEL: That is what he said, I think.

MR. CLINE: The only reason I bring that up, you 

have ruled, and I am not going to go back into it, I just 

wanted to explain that --

MR. DRATEL: It was a good faith -- 

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas?

MR. JONAS: I don't have anything to say. 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, the subject may come up 

again. On the learned treatises would you like for us to, 

once we feel like we have made the predicate, to ask the 

Court, "May we now use this as a learned treatise?"

THE COURT: Yes, that you propose -- Before you get 

into the statements initially, yes, that you propose to do it. 

I think you can lay a predicate and then ask if you can do 

that.

MS. HOLLANDER: And then if you agree, we can read 

it into evidence? 

THE COURT: But I don't want you starting by reading 

it.

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MR. JONAS: Can I ask a clarifying question? You 

pointed out that if he relied upon it, and Doctor Levitt 

relies -- 

THE COURT: I understand. And they are saying you 

don't need to rely. You need to take a look at that, and I 

will look at it as well.

MR. JONAS: My question is, and I am not necessarily 

asking for an answer right now, but I want to pose the 

question, is the reliance specifically to a specific point in 

the testimony, or is it a general body of reliance?

THE COURT: That appears to be a general -- 

MR. CLINE: I think that is correct. Maybe we can 

all look at this.

THE COURT: Take a look at that. This is going to 

be something that is going to be coming up. 

(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: Counsel? 

MR. DRATEL: Thank you, Your Honor. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) So if we get back to the index, that was 

given to you in confidence. Correct? Confidentially?

A. Correct.

Q. By the Israelis. 

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And you actually lived in Israel for two years. 

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Correct?

A. As a child when my father was working there for an 

American company.

Q. What years were those?

A. '79 through early -- Some point in '79 through some point 

in '81.

Q. And did you -- Withdrawn. And there was a military 

conflict going on at that time. Correct? With Lebanon?

A. Not that I was aware of, but yes.

Q. Okay. 

MR. DRATEL: I have nothing further, Your Honor. 

Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas? 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. Jonas: 

Q. Good morning, Doctor Levitt. 

A. Good morning.

Q. I am going to try to ask you my questions in the order of 

the Defense attorneys who questioned you. That is the way my 

notes are, so starting with Mr. Cline and his questioning. 

Do you recall Mr. Cline showed you Defense Exhibit, I 

believe it is 963, a specially designated nationals list? Do 

you recall that? 

A. Yes.

Q. You testified that Treasury designates individuals as 

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terrorists. Do they designate other individuals on other 

categories as well?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you give an example?

A. Drug traffickers, for example. There are lists for rogue 

regimes. There are a variety of different types of 

Presidential executive orders authorizing the Treasury to 

designate--that is, freeze funds and block transactions--for a 

whole range of illicit activity.

Q. And would all those different type of designations, would 

they have been included on Defense Exhibit 963, this specially 

designated nationals list?

A. Not to my knowledge, no.

Q. Was that list strictly terrorists, then?

A. I don't remember the list, but I think it was just one of 

the executive orders.

MR. JONAS: Do you have No. 963? 

MR. CLINE: I do. We can stipulate that it does 

include those other categories, if you like.

MR. JONAS: That is fine. 

Your Honor, for the record the parties have stipulated 

that that list includes these other categories of designations 

by Treasury, not just terrorists.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) With that stipulation, Doctor Levitt, the 

list was thick. 

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MR. JONAS: For the record, I am holding my hand 

about an inch apart. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Is that correct?

A. That is right.

Q. So it is more than just terrorism designations.

Mr. Cline pointed out some designations of organizations 

known as Interpal, CBSP, and al-Asqa. Are you familiar with 

those organizations?

A. I am.

Q. Are those organizations zakat committees?

A. No.

Q. What are they?

A. They are foreign charities. Interpal is based in Great 

Britain, CBSP is based in France, Al-Aqsa has offices 

throughout Europe and some in the Middle East.

Q. Do you know why they were designated by the U.S. 

government?

A. They were designated for raising and transferring funds 

for Hamas.

Q. Would you compare them to Holy Land Foundation in the 

sense of their function in that they are a charity?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, Mr. Cline showed you that list, again, the specially 

designated nationals list, and asked you if certain zakat 

committees were mentioned in the list. 

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A. That is right.

Q. Do you recall the questions? Does the fact that these 

Hamas -- Does the fact that certain zakat committees are not 

mentioned in the specially designated nationals list, that 

they are not designated by the Treasury Department, does that 

not make them part of Hamas?

A. No.

Q. Does the fact that certain committees are not on the 

list, does that mean that people, Americans, are allowed to 

give money to those zakat committees?

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection; leading, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may ask that. He is an 

expert witness. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I am sorry. Can you repeat the 

question? 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Sure. Does the fact that certain zakat 

committees are not designated by the U.S. government, does 

that mean that Americans can give money to that zakat 

committee if it is a Hamas zakat committee?

MR. DRATEL: That is a legal question, really.

THE COURT: Overrule the objection. Go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: No. Treasury expressly does not have 

a white list.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Can you explain what that means?

A. Sometimes the designation lists are described black lists 

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because it lists entities that you are not allowed to do 

business with. Treasury does not have a white list of the 

good, if you will, entities you are. Just by virtue of not 

being on the black list doesn't mean that you are legitimate.

Q. Does Treasury designate every component of the terrorist 

organization?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. It is impossible. There are too many entities out there. 

There is not enough time in the day or employees. And by 

virtue of having designated terrorists groups as foreign 

terrorist organizations at large, if any entity is deemed to 

be part of, in this case Hamas, it is illegal to do business 

with them.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if I can pull a chart up?

THE COURT: Yes. 

MR. JONAS: The one from yesterday.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, I am pulling up 

Demonstrative No. 17, which is the Hamas leaders in the 1990s 

chart. Of these individuals on the chart, is there any 

dispute that these individuals are or have been members and 

leaders of Hamas?

A. I don't know of any dispute on any of these individuals.

Q. Has Hamas ever come out and denied that these individuals 

are their members or their leaders?

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A. Only Jamil Hamami.

Q. And when was that?

A. '96.

Q. Prior to that was he with Hamas?

A. Clearly. He was a Hamas spokesman.

Q. How many of these individuals have been designated as 

terrorists by the United States government?

A. You are testing my memory. Khalid Mishal, Sheikh Yassin, 

Mousa Abu Marzook, Imad al-Alami, and I believe Abdul Aziz 

al-Rantisi, though I can't recall exactly.

Q. These other individuals not designated by the United 

States, the fact they are not designated, does that mean that 

U.S. citizens, American people, can give money to them on 

behalf of Hamas?

A. Since they are publicly identified Hamas members, no.

Q. What if they weren't publicly identified but individuals 

knew that they were part of Hamas?

A. If the individuals know that they are part of Hamas, then 

they are knowingly giving to Hamas and that is illegal.

Q. Is it the public identification of an individual or zakat 

committee as Hamas, is that what makes it improper to give to 

them?

A. Not that alone, no.

Q. What else?

A. It is whether or not they are members or parts of Hamas 

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and whether the people who were giving the funds at the time 

knew that at the time.

Q. So the fact -- Just so we are clear -- 

MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, this is really a matter for 

the Court. 

MR. JONAS: I will move on. 

THE COURT: All right.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Mr. Cline asked you about whether any 

board members of zakat committees have been designated. Do 

you recall that question?

A. Correct.

Q. You testified yesterday that Sheikh Yassin created 

certain Hamas run social institutions. Do you recall those?

A. Correct.

Q. What were the names of those institutions again? 

A. Islamic Center and the Islamic Society, founded in part 

by Sheikh Yassin and Abdul Aziz al-Rantisi, and others. I say 

those two because they are both up on your chart.

Q. Is there any dispute that those were started by Sheikh 

Yassin?

A. No.

Q. Any dispute that those are Hamas institutions?

A. No.

Q. Do you recall questioning about a book by the name of 

Azzam Tamimi?

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A. Yes. Azzam Tamimi is a Palestinian living in Great 

Britain closely identified with Hamas.

Q. Did Azzam Tamimi acknowledge that these institutions are 

Hamas institutions?

A. He acknowledged zakat committees, at least some, are 

Hamas institutions.

MR. DRATEL: Objection; hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Sheikh Yassin, you testified, though, is 

designated. 

A. Correct.

Q. So as being a founder of Islamic Society, in response to 

Mr. Cline's question -- Withdrawn. Mr. Cline asked you about 

the zakat committees themselves. Okay? What about other 

charitable institutions of Hamas? Have board members of those 

other charitable institutions been designated?

A. I don't know if Sheikh Yassin or Abdul Aziz al-Rantisi 

are actually board members. They are certainly founders of 

the Islamic Center and Islamic Society. And as I understood 

the question from Mr. Cline, it was about the board members of 

specific zakat committees, which is why I answered as I did.

Q. I want to move on to some questioning by Ms. Hollander. 

She questioned you about the needs of the Palestinian people. 

Prior to 1967 when the Israelis occupied Gaza and the West 

Bank was there a need of the Palestinian people?

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A. Yes.

Q. Did the Israeli occupation cause a need for the 

Palestinian people? 

A. There was already a pre-existing need, but the conflict 

in 1967 arguably exacerbated that need. The need continued. 

I don't know if it made it worse. It certainly didn't fix the 

need.

Q. And now that Hamas controls the Gaza Strip, is the need 

still there?

A. Even more so.

Q. Has Hamas taken advantage of this need for its own 

purposes?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. I think I mentioned yesterday, for example, when Israel 

at U.S. and other international -- after that pressure agreed 

to open up the main crossing point for food, medicine, and --

MS. HOLLANDER: Objection, Your Honor. This was not 

asked on cross. This is just repeating his direct 

examination. I didn't ask him these questions about whether 

Hamas had taken advantage of this, on cross. 

THE COURT: Does this go to some issue raised on 

cross? 

MR. JONAS: It goes to the issue of the need of the 

Palestinian people that Ms. Hollander went into, and the 

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implication that the Israelis caused this need, which Doctor 

Levitt just testified about. But I think, Your Honor -- 

THE COURT: That is all right. Ask your question. 

Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) The question was whether Hamas took 

advantage of this desperate need. 

A. So I cited the example of Hamas shelling the crossing 

that had been opened to get food, medicine, humanitarian aid 

into the Palestinian people. This is Gaza under Hamas' rule. 

If Hamas was only about -- 

MR. DRATEL: Can I get a time frame on this, Your 

Honor?

THE COURT: Time frame.

THE WITNESS: Since Hamas took over the Gaza Strip 

in June of 2007.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Doctor Levitt, if I may, what about in 

the 1990s prior to Hamas taking over the Gaza Strip? Did 

Hamas take advantage of the need of the Palestinian people?

A. Yes.

Q. How so?

A. To build grassroots support and use this as a platform to 

radicalize and recruit. Hamas is happy to provide aid, though 

its attacks in very large part are the reason for the 

continued conflict and the continued need for that aid.

Q. Ms. Hollander talked to you about your speaking 

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engagements. 

A. I speak a lot; too much the past couple of days.

Q. Did you ever speak at Arabic organizations or Middle 

Eastern organizations?

A. Yes.

Q. Such as?

A. Next month I am speaking at the Emirate Center for 

Strategic Studies and Research, the preeminent think tank in 

the UAE, the United Arab Emirates in Abu Dhabi, for example.

Q. You said that when you spoke at AIPAC, the 

American-Israeli Political Action Committee, that they weren't 

happy with you. Why not?

A. Well, sometimes. I speak truth to power. It is the same 

message I have given here. I am a strong advocate for a 

two-state solution. Many Palestinians like that, many 

Israelis don't. Many Israelis do like it and many 

Palestinians don't like it. And when I have spoken on 

Israeli-Palestinian issues to AIPAC, there are some people 

that like what I say and some don't. More often than not I am 

not speaking on Israeli-Palestinian issues there at all. 

The past two times, I forget who was asking me about it, 

raised it, maybe Ms. Hollander, I was speaking on Iran.

Q. Did you ever encourage people there to go out and kill 

Palestinians?

A. Never.

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Q. Ms. Hollander asked you about the Likud party. 

A. Yes.

Q. Which is one of the Israeli political parties. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. You were questioned about the Likud party's policy 

towards the Oslo Accords?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the Likud party commit any suicide bombings to show 

their opposition to the Oslo Accords?

A. No.

Q. Has the Likud party been designated by the U.S. 

government?

A. No.

Q. She asked you about bypass roads in the West Bank. 

A. Yes.

Q. Why are there bypass roads?

A. There are bypass roads Jewish civilians, some settlers, 

some Israelis traveling through the West Bank who don't 

actually live there, would be fired upon in attacks, by Hamas 

or others, and bypass roads were built so that commuters would 

not have to go through Arab towns or villages, and in those 

places where the bypass roads have the types of walls that 

Defense counsel described, they are specifically built because 

there have been shooting attacks there and people have been 

shot driving down the road.

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Q. Ms. Hollander asked you about Jamil Hamami coming to the 

United States to speak -- to be invited to speak and she 

showed you some letters. Do you recall that?

A. I do.

Q. What year, if you recall, was he invited to speak in the 

United States?

A. It was in the mid to late 1990s.

Q. Was that after he was disassociated with Hamas?

A. Yes.

Q. If you recall, Ms. Cadeddu asked you about your statement 

that you called your methodology the gold standard. 

A. Correct.

Q. Is that something you yourself called it?

A. No. 

MR. DRATEL: Objection; hearsay, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: What he called his methodology? 

MR. DRATEL: No. He said he didn't call it that, 

and I think he is going to then give some hearsay -- 

THE COURT: The question is "Is that something you 

called it?" That is a proper question. Overruled.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Without getting into what was said, who 

called you -- 

MR. DRATEL: Objection, Your Honor. It is a back 

door who called you -- 

THE COURT: I haven't heard the question. Before 

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you answer it, let me rule on it.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Who calls you the gold standard?

MR. DRATEL: Who called you is just a back door way 

of putting in hearsay.

THE COURT: Someone called him that. I will sustain 

the objection.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Cadeddu went through your book and 

all the end notes, footnotes, index notes, whatever you want 

to call them. 

A. I am impressed she went through them all. There are lot.

Q. Well, she stuck with one particular chapter or two 

chapters. And she identified Israeli sources that you 

reviewed. 

A. Yes.

Q. AS part of the book. Are Israeli sources inherently bad?

A. No. In fact, if you are studying Hamas, Israel and 

Israeli sources are going to have a lot of information on this 

group. This group is targeting Israel, so Israeli police and 

Israeli officials are going to be the most active in 

investigating this group. If you were investigating the FARC 

in Colombia you would go to the Columbians for information. 

That doesn't mean that everything that you get from 

Israel is as reliable. It doesn't mean that you should use 

only Israeli information. One of the things I am careful to 

do, whether it is Israeli or Palestinian information, is vet 

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it with American scholars and American officials.

Q. Did you use any Palestinian information in your book?

A. Certainly.

Q. She questioned you about, I believe it is CSS. I can't 

recall what that stands for. 

A. Center for Special Studies, though they have renamed 

themselves.

Q. That is where she asked you about the bulletins and the 

attached documents?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you rely upon the bulletins or the analysis by the 

CSS in reviewing the attached primary documents, or did you 

just review the documents themselves?

A. I did both. In other words, there are some citations in 

the book where I quote from a CSS analysis, and I am very 

careful to have said "according to an Israeli analysis" so the 

reader, the audience knows exactly who that is coming from and 

can judge it as such. 

I also, and much more frequently, rely on the Palestinian 

documents, sometimes seized from Palestinian intelligence 

offices, sometimes seized from zakat committees or other Hamas 

offices, and rely on the documents themselves. Those 

documents have been authenticated by the U.S. government.

Q. Do you recall she asked you a series of questions, and 

she used as an example the American revolution, letters from 

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Thomas Jefferson, et cetera. Do you recall those series of 

questions?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to make sure we are clear on something. Would 

you, in your opinion, compare Hamas to the American 

revolution?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. The American revolution was an entirely different 

circumstance. In the American revolution, George Washington 

and his compatriots weren't targeting civilians and -- 

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I am going to object here. 

This is not relevant. And I didn't compare Hamas to the 

American revolution. I used it as an example for primary and 

secondary research.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Ms. Cadeddu asked you about criticism of 

your book. 

A. Yes.

Q. Has there also been praise for your book?

A. There has been both.

Q. Is that normal?

A. Yes, especially on a sensitive subject that is the topic 

about ongoing conflict. But on the balance, there has been 

much more praise, in particular on the methodology and the 

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documentation.

Q. Mr. Dratel asked you about the Israel government 

sanctioning some of the Dawa activities. I don't recall 

specifically if he mentioned Islamic Center or Gaza or not. 

When did the Israeli government sanction the Dawa 

activities of Hamas? 

A. This was in the years following the 1967 War; 1960s and 

early 1970s prior to Hamas' engagement in the kind of violence 

that we have discussed earlier.

Q. Did there come a point when the Israeli government 

stopped sanctioning the Hamas institution of the Palestinian 

Muslim Brotherhood institutions?

A. Yes. And in fact banned them, many of them.

Q. Mr. Dratel asked you about Saudi Arabia support for 

Hamas. Do you recall those questions?

A. That is right.

Q. Are you familiar with something called the Islamic 

Development Bank?

A. I am.

Q. And was that bank had any relationship 

between -- Withdrawn. What is that?

A. It is an international bank headquartered I believe in 

Saudi Arabia.

Q. Did that bank have anything to do with the Saudi Arabia 

support of Hamas?

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A. I believe that some of the transfers were made to the 

bank.

Q. Some of the money transfers?

A. Correct.

Q. Mr. Dratel asked you about the deportees to Lebanon in 

1992. Do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. He asked you about the deportees covering every segment 

of Palestinian society. 

A. That is right.

Q. Is that an accurate statement?

A. Yes and no.

Q. Can you explain?

A. The vast majority of these individuals by all accounts, 

Israeli, American, and Palestinian, is that the vast majority 

of these people were Hamas and some Islamic jihad; that that 

there were elements from other persons belonging to other 

elements of Palestinian society who were involved in violence 

is likely the case. But if there were one or two or five out 

of the 415 or so, that hardly makes it an equal split.

Q. Has Hamas denied that the deportees were Hamas members?

A. Not at all. Hamas has referred to that deportation as a 

severe blow to the organization and was quite open about its 

need to take care of its Hamas members who were deported and 

their families who remained.

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Q. Mr. Dratel asked you about an index you received from the 

government of Israel regarding documents they seized during 

the operation known as Defensive Shield. Do you recall that 

question?

A. Yes.

Q. He asked you about receiving that index in confidence. 

Is it uncommon for scholars to receive material in confidence 

on some occasions?

A. No. But because I received it in confidence, it is used 

once in passing in a very general way in the book because I 

wouldn't want to rely on a document that my readership 

wouldn't have access to, which is why many of the Palestinian 

documents I refer to are the ones that are available on the 

CSS website. 

I don't think I actually refer to any seized 

document--other than this index, which is itself just a 

compilation--I don't think I cite to any specific seized 

document in the book that I saw but that is not on the website 

for my readership to see. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Cline? 

MR. CLINE: Could I do a very brief recross?

THE COURT: Yes. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Cline: 

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Q. Hello again.

A. Good morning.

Q. You testified I think just now on redirect, if I 

understood you right, that the designation of Hamas as a 

terrorist organization covered the zakat committees that 

functioned on behalf of Hamas. Is that a fair 

characterization?

A. It would cover any entity that was part of Hamas.

Q. Including zakat committees. 

A. Yes.

Q. All right. I want to ask you about that, and I want to 

do it in the context of the al-Salah Society which we talked a 

little bit about yesterday. 

A. Okay.

Q. First of all, just to make it clear here, the al-Salah 

Society is not one of the organizations named in the 

indictment. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. All right. And something I forgot to mention yesterday, 

the director of al-Salah, Ahmed al-Kurd, was designated at the 

same time as al-Salah. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. Now, is it fair to say that in your view, and for that 

matter in the U.S. government's view, the al-Salah Society has 

for many years been part of the Hamas social wing in the Gaza 

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Strip?

A. Correct; and had been closed by Palestinian and Israeli 

authorities both over the course of the years.

Q. And for going back, what would you say, 10, 15, 20 years, 

in your view and in the U.S. government's view, it had been 

functioning as part of this social side of Hamas, or Dawa as 

you describe it. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And it was doing this on behalf of Hamas. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. Now, al-Salah was designated as a specially designated 

global terrorist, or SDGT, in August of 2007, just last year. 

Right?

A. That is right.

Q. And you actually wrote a short article about that 

designation for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. 

Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. And in that article you said, "The new U.S. designation 

of al-Salah criminalizes American donations to al-Salah." 

Right?

A. I am not sure what you are asking me. I don't have it in 

front of me.

Q. Let me give you a copy. Maybe we can just put this into 

evidence. 

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MR. CLINE: May I approach, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) Let me hand you what we have marked as 

Defendant's Exhibit No. 1054. Do you recognize that, Doctor 

Levitt, as the article, printout of the brief article you 

wrote for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy?

A. Yes.

Q. And if you look at the first paragraph, the last 

sentence, it says -- May we -- 

MR. CLINE: I will offer this into evidence, Your 

Honor?

MR. JONAS: We are going to object. This is a 

hearsay document. The fact that this witness wrote it doesn't 

mean it comes into evidence. 

THE COURT: It is a document he wrote? Is that 

correct? Overrule that objection. Admitted. 

Q. (BY MR. CLINE) Are there is considerable discussion in 

this article about Hamas and about al-Salah. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. I want to focus you on the last sentence of 

the first paragraph. And that sentence says, "The new U.S. 

designation criminalizes American donations to al-Salah and 

officially informs banks and donors of the organization's ties 

to and activities on behalf of Hamas." Correct?

A. That is right.

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Q. All right. 

MR. CLINE: Thank you, Your Honor. 

MS. HOLLANDER: May I do brief recross?

THE COURT: Yes. 

RECROSS EXAMINATION

By Ms. Hollander: 

Q. You mentioned that Likud party has never been designated 

and they didn't have suicide bombers. Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. You are aware of the fact that in the lead-up to Oslo 

other members of the -- other Israelis accused the Likud party 

of fomenting settler violence, aren't you?

A. Actually I am not.

Q. You haven't really studied the Israeli part of the Oslo 

Accord, have you?

A. Actually I have studied it very carefully, but you asked 

about any particular piece of it. It may or may not be at my 

immediate recollection.

Q. And you didn't -- Therefore, you don't recollect anything 

about the connascent debates about the position that Netanyahu 

took and his involvement in any of the protests. 

A. No, not that specifically.

Q. Now, you claim to be an expert on Hamas. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you wrote this book about Hamas that you completed -- 

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You said you completed all of the background work in the end 

of 2004. Correct?

A. The primary research --

Q. Primary research. And then you worked on writing the 

book. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And included in your research was your determination of 

who you believed were the leaders of Hamas. Correct?

A. I don't know if I described it as my determination, 

because they are all sourced to other experts, government, et 

cetera. But it is not just my opinion.

Q. I understand. This isn't a trick. I am just saying that 

you researched the people who you believed to be the founders 

of Hamas. Correct?

A. I am not sure how -- The question is confusing me. But 

yes, I have researched some of the leaders of Hamas and 

addressed some of them here.

Q. Right. And that was an important part of your expertise 

is determining who is and who is not Hamas, from your 

perspective, and from the perspective of who you relied on. 

Correct?

A. I suppose, yeah.

Q. Well, you just testified this whole chart of people you 

said were Hamas -- related to Hamas. Correct?

A. Yes.

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Q. Okay. And included in that list was Jamil Hamami. 

Correct?

A. That is right.

Q. But even though -- And you mention Jamil Hamami in your 

book as one of the founders of Hamas. Correct?

A. In passing, yes; not a focus of the book.

Q. But you mention him three or four times in the book as 

somebody who was a founder of Hamas. Correct?

A. I mention him. I don't remember if I mentioned him as a 

founder, but I mention him several times in the book. There 

is a whole chapter on political leaders. He is not focused on 

that chapter. But he is in there.

Q. But you do consider him part of the founding of Hamas and 

a senior member of its West Bank leadership. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. But in fact, it wasn't until 2007 when you were 

cross examined that you first learned that he had come to the 

United States in 1996 as a guest of the United States. 

Correct?

A. That is right.

MS. HOLLANDER: Nothing further, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Westfall, any recross? 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, I have no further 

questions for Doctor Levitt.

THE COURT: Ms. Cadeddu? 

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MS. CADEDDU: Nor do I, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Dratel? 

MR. DRATEL: Nor do I, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Are you finished? 

MR. JONAS: Yes.

THE COURT: Doctor Levitt, you may step down. You 

are free to go. Thank you. 

Call your next witness.

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, may I retrieve an exhibit?

THE COURT: Sure. Come on up.

While we are getting -- Let me have a conference up here 

for a minute. 

(The following was had outside the hearing of the 

jury.)

THE COURT: I was a little concerned with that last 

question, "It wasn't until 2007 when you were cross examined." 

I think you can ask him that he found out in 2007, without 

getting into cross examination. That it is just getting too 

close to a retrial that may stir something in some juror's 

mind. We can get there without getting into that. If you 

were trying to say a time frame when he found out, you can 

just ask about that without mentioning anything that might 

suggest --

MS. HOLLANDER: I was careful to not say cross 

examined.

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THE COURT: It concerned me.

MS. CADEDDU: Can we say he has testified several 

times before? 

THE COURT: Yes. But when you were talking about 

"When you were cross examined," it implied like what you were 

doing here, and that could just be too close.

MR. DRATEL: I think the purpose was he didn't do it 

on his own.

MS. HOLLANDER: I was trying to stay away from it, 

but I will be even more careful.

MS. CADEDDU: When you intend to break.

THE COURT: Probably about 11:30 or so. Actually we 

can take -- We are only going to work until about 1:00. Are 

you ready for a break? 

MR. WESTFALL: Your Honor, just out of guidance once 

again, because this is going to come up, when we want to 

impeach somebody on a prior statement would the Court prefer 

that we say "On a previous occasion you testified"?

THE COURT: Yes. Without giving any kind of a hint 

that it was -- 

MR. DRATEL: I just sometimes say "Have you 

testified previously" -- 

MS. HOLLANDER: I didn't mean to be giving any --

THE COURT: And I know you weren't trying, but it 

just concerned me that we were getting a little close. 

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(The following was had in the presence and hearing 

of the jury.)

THE COURT: I think we are ready for a break, from 

what they are saying. Why don't we take the first break. 

Let's be back at 11:35, and then we will work until 1:00. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: We will be in recess.

(Brief Recess.)

(Whereupon, the oath was administered by the Court.)

THE COURT: Please be seated. 

MARCIAL PEREDO,

Testified on direct examination by Ms. Shapiro as follows: 

Q. Could you please state your name?

A. Marcial Peredo. 

Q. And where do you live, Mr. Peredo?

A. 3048 Shadeland Drive in Falls Church, Virginia.

Q. And where is Falls Church, Virginia?

A. Close to Washington, D.C.

Q. Okay. Do you own your house in Falls Church, Virginia?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And how long have you owned your house?

A. About three and a half years.

Q. Do you know who the prior owner of your house is?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And who is that?

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A. Fawaz Mushtaha.

Q. Do you receive mail for Fawaz Mushtaha?

A. Yes, I do; initially a lot, but not a lot now. It 

trimmed down.

Q. Okay. And after you moved into your house, a few years 

ago did there come a time when you improved your backyard?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did you do?

A. I started leveling the backyard. When they built the 

garage in the backyard they created a pile of dirt basically. 

What I ended up doing, I hired a contractor to flatten -- to 

spread the dirt.

Q. Okay. You say you were leveling your backyard?

A. Correct.

Q. In the process of leveling your backyard, did you find 

anything in your backyard?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did you find?

A. Some data tapes that looked like videotapes.

Q. How did it happen that you found these tapes?

A. As they were finishing up the work with the bobcat, I 

asked them to just dig a little bit more dirt out of a corner, 

and when they did they called me and said, "You have some 

black tapes in the ground."

Q. Okay. And what did you do when they told you that or 

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when you learned that there were these black tapes that were 

in the ground?

A. Basically I went and looked at them, and they were just 

tapes. I wasn't 100 percent sure what they were so I didn't 

want the bobcat to keep spreading it all over the place. So I 

dug up the tapes manually, as much as I could, and put them 

into a trash bag.

Q. Do you know about how deep it was that these tapes were 

in the ground?

A. It was between from where the original dirt was, so it 

was between a foot to two feet deep.

Q. Were they uncovered by machinery, or how was it that they 

were --

A. Correct. Yes, they were uncovered by machinery, the 

bobcat.

Q. The bobcat. Okay. And can you describe for us a little 

bit about what these tapes looked like?

A. They were about three and a half to four inches in 

diameter. Some of them had more tape than others. They had 

kind of whitish reel and they were just tape, like videotape.

Q. Okay. 

A. Without the casing.

Q. I am going to show you what has been marked as Mushtaha 

House No. 2. 

MS. SHAPIRO: May I approach, Your Honor?

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THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) If you can just tell me if you 

recognize this. 

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Can you tell me generally what this object is?

A. Those are the --

Q. Generically. 

A. I am sorry. Data tape.

Q. Data tape. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I move the admission of 

Mushtaha House No. 2.

MS. CADEDDU: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Is this, Mr. Peredo, an example of one 

of the tapes that you found--I will see if I can take it out 

of the bag--buried in your backyard?

A. That is correct.

MS. SHAPIRO: May I show the jury, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) About how many tapes do you think there 

were that you put into that garbage bag?

A. There were several dozen. I can't recall exactly. I 

wasn't counting, but there were several dozen, probably three 

dozen or maybe a little bit more.

Q. Okay. And once you put them into this garbage bag, what 

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did you do with them?

A. I put them in the garbage bin that the county gives us 

for trash pick-up.

Q. So you were going to throw them away?

A. Correct.

Q. Did something happen that caused you to retrieve them 

from the garbage?

A. Yes. I was speaking to my neighbors, and from them I 

learned that the house was previously under surveillance, and 

in fact it was raided at one point before, obviously before I 

purchased it.

Q. Okay. And after you learned that information, what did 

you do?

A. Well, I decided to call a friend of mine who is in the 

Homeland Security area to ask him what I should do.

Q. And what did you do after that?

A. Well, he told me that, you know, he would be glad to take 

a couple of the tapes to the proper authorities and see if 

there was anything to be concerned about.

Q. So did you then retrieve the bag of tapes from the 

garbage?

A. Yes, I took the bag out of the garbage. They were all in 

one bag. And then I took two tapes and gave it to the friend 

of mine so he can take it to his colleagues.

Q. And did you hear anything back about these tapes after 

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you gave them to him?

A. About two or three weeks later I did hear from the FBI 

that they wanted to get the rest of the tapes.

Q. And did the FBI come to your house?

A. Yes, they came to my house and picked up the rest of the 

bags.

Q. Did they -- 

A. I mean the rest of the tapes.

Q. And did they do anything else at your house?

A. They looked at the general area where it was, but that 

was it for that first visit.

Q. And did the FBI subsequently come back to your house?

A. Yes, they did. They wanted to come back and see if there 

were anymore -- I had told them that I didn't take all the 

tapes out, I took just enough to, you know, kind of finish my 

landscaping. So they did come back a few weeks later to do 

some more digging.

Q. And so did they execute a search of your house?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. Was that with your consent?

A. Oh, yeah. Everything -- I signed so many papers I can't 

remember. Yes.

Q. And did the FBI -- Were you with the FBI when they were 

doing this search?

A. Yes, I was home at the time.

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Q. And did you observe that they found anything in your 

backyard?

A. Correct. They did find -- In the general area where we 

initially found the tapes, they found a few more tapes, not 

the same quantity that I originally gathered, but they did 

find more tapes.

Q. And did they take those tapes?

A. Yes, they did.

Q. And did they find anything else at your house?

A. Yes. In conversation I learned that they had.

MS. CADEDDU: Your Honor, I object to hearsay. 

THE COURT: Yes. 

MS. SHAPIRO: I can ask it another way, Your Honor.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Did you observe the FBI while they were 

doing additional searching around your house?

A. Correct. Yes, I did.

Q. And did you personally observe them discover any 

additional materials?

A. Yes. They found additional -- not tapes, but the burnt 

casings in the grill and -- There is a built-in brick grill in 

the back that I have yet to use, but anyway, they did find 

some suspicious items, circular items on top, so they asked me 

if they could dig some more.

Q. Was there anything else besides the burnt casings in the 

grill?

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A. Yeah. Once they started picking out, they found burnt 

tape casings, also a burnt cell phone, there was a packet of 

what looked like maps and money half burnt in there.

Q. And did they take all that material, the cell phone and 

the money and the maps?

A. They took even the ashes. They took everything.

Q. Okay. 

THE COURT: Ms. Shapiro, have you established a time 

frame for when this was going on? 

MS. SHAPIRO: Yes, but I will ask it again.

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) When exactly was it that you found 

these tapes?

A. It was the summer of 2006.

Q. Thank you. 

If I can just show you, Mr. Peredo what has been marked 

as Mushtaha House No. 1. 

MS. SHAPIRO: May I approach, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Can you just tell me what this is 

generically?

A. This is the back of my garage.

Q. Photographs?

A. Photographs. Correct.

Q. Thank you. 

Mr. Peredo, did you take these photographs yourself? 

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A. Yes, I did.

MS. SHAPIRO: I move to admission Mushtaha House 

No. 1. 

MS. CADEDDU: No objection.

THE COURT: Okay. Admitted. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Could you pull that up on the screen, 

please? 

Q. (BY MS. SHAPIRO) Could you just point out for the jury 

the general area where you found these tapes?

A. It is pretty dark, but on the bottom picture where you 

see a white pipe coming out, about a foot to the left and 

probably about a foot or so back.

Q. Okay. And they were about a foot or two beneath the 

ground?

A. Correct. I mean, they were almost -- The tapes were 

almost at the level of the pipe, and the pipe is about a foot 

or more -- Originally it was a foot or more beneath the 

ground.

Q. Okay. Thank you. 

MS. SHAPIRO: Pass the witness, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Anybody? 

MS. MORENO: No questions of Mr. Peredo, Your Honor.

MR. WESTFALL: We have no questions, Your Honor.

MS. HOLLANDER: No questions.

MR. DRATEL: None, Your Honor.

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MS. CADEDDU: No questions, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down, Mr. 

Peredo. Thank you. You are free to go. 

Next witness? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, the government calls Paul 

Matulic. 

(Whereupon, the oath was administered by the Court.)

PAUL MATULIC,

Testified on direct examination by Mr. Jonas as follows:

Q. Could you state and spell your name, please?

A. Paul Matulic, M-A-T-U-L-I-C. 

Q. Mr. Matulic, what do you do for a living?

A. I am a professional staff member on the Senate 

Intelligence Committee.

Q. What does that mean?

A. The Senate Intelligence Committee has dedicated staff to 

do the duties of the Committee. I am one of that staff. I am 

also a designee of one of the members on that committee.

Q. This is the United States Senate?

A. Correct.

Q. In Washington?

A. Correct.

Q. Is there a particular senator that you are designee of?

A. I am the designee of Senator Hatch.

Q. Orrin Hatch?

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A. Correct.

Q. What state does Senator Hatch represent?

A. The State of Utah.

Q. How long have you been in that position?

A. I have been Senator Hatch's designee since 2005.

Q. Prior to that what did you do?

A. I was Senator Hatch's foreign policy advisor on his 

personal staff from '94 until 2005.

Q. As his foreign policy advisor, what were your 

responsibilities generally?

A. The primary responsibility is always to advise the 

Senator on legislation before the Senate regarding national 

security and international affairs, but I also kept him 

advised about developments in the world about which he was 

interested.

Q. Was Senator Hatch involved in any Senate committees in 

the mid '90s?

A. The Senator was the chairman of the Senate Judiciary 

Committee through most of the '90s.

Q. What does the Judiciary Committee do?

A. It has a large portfolio that includes oversight of the 

courts, criminal law, constitutional law, antitrust law, 

intellectual property law, and immigration law, and I am 

probably missing one or two.

Q. Does it oversee any departments of the Executive Branch?

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A. The Department of Justice.

Q. Just so we are clear on the timing and your position, 

were you the foreign policy advisor of Senator Hatch back in 

August of 1995?

A. I was.

Q. Do you recall receiving a fax from a certain 

organization?

A. I do.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, if I may approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Sir, you have before you what has been 

marked as Hamas Letter No. 1. Do you see that document?

A. I do.

Q. Do you recognize it?

A. I do.

Q. How do you recognize it?

A. I received this document.

Q. Without describing the contents, what is it?

A. It is a fax to Senator Hatch, Chairman of the Judiciary 

Committee, from Hamas.

Q. And you say you recognize it. How do you recognize it?

A. It was -- When it was received in Senator Hatch's office 

it was given to me.

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I would offer 

into evidence Hamas Letter No. 1. 

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MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please.

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Mr. Matulic, you see the top portion of 

the letter. You said this letter came from Hamas. Does that 

tell you -- Is your answer based upon the letterhead?

A. Yeah. I deduced that it came from Hamas because it had 

Hamas letterhead.

Q. Okay. Can you read the letter, please?

A. "Mr. Orrin Hatch, Chairman of the Senate Judiciary 

Committee. 

"Sir: 

"We have been advised to approach you on the highly 

urgent matter of the detention by the U.S. authorities of 

Dr. Musa Abu Marzuq, Head of the Hamas Political Bureau. He 

was arrested on 25 July upon his arrival in New York's JFK 

Airport on a private perfectly legal visit in the company of 

his family.

"The detention of Dr. Abu Marzuq has been a source of 

concern for us and for many Arabs and Muslims around the 

world. The adoption of what can only be described as delaying 

tactics by the U.S. authorities in dealing with the matter is 

a clear indication that the entire measure has been motivated 

by political rather than legal considerations. This has been 

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viewed as a deliberate attempt by the U.S. administration to 

buy time in order to afford certain foreign circles, primarily 

the Israelis, the opportunity to forge falls charge against 

Dr. Abu Marzuq prior to applying for his extradition. 

"The continued detention or the handing over of Dr. Abu 

Marzuq to the Israelis will provoke a wave out outrage against 

the United States in various parts of the Arab and Muslim 

world. Serious repercussions could ensue as a result. 

"We hope that you will kindly consider intervening with 

the U.S. authorities and urge popular and official circles in 

the United States to support the campaign for the immediate 

release of Dr. Abu Marzuq, who is a diabetic and in need of 

special medical attention. We wish that through your good 

offices Dr. Abu Marzuq will be released and allowed to leave 

peacefully to a country of his own choice. 

"Ibrahim Ghousheh, Hamas spokesman."

Q. Do you see some handwritten notations on the bottom?

A. I do.

Q. Do you recognize those?

A. It is my handwriting.

Q. And what did you write?

A. I wrote "Amman, Jordan."

Q. Why did you write "Amman, Jordan"?

A. Because when I received the letter I didn't recognize the 

three digit prefix and the phone numbers at the bottom, and I 

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called the Capitol operator and asked her to tell me what they 

are associated with.

Q. Would that be the 962?

A. That is correct.

Q. And you learned that they were from Amman? 

A. Yes.

Q. At the time you received the letter, did you know who 

Dr. Mousa Abu Marzook was?

A. I did.

Q. And what was your understanding of who he was?

A. That he was the head of the political wing of Hamas.

Q. So what it says in the letter confirmed what your 

understanding was?

A. Correct.

Q. And do you know what was going on with him at that time?

A. I did.

Q. What was happening to him at the time of this letter?

A. He was in detention at JFK.

Q. When you received this letter, what did you do with it?

A. I read it.

Q. What did you do after you read it?

A. After I read it I made the decision to supply copies to 

the Capitol Police, to the FBI, to the Department of Justice, 

and to the Department of State.

Q. Why?

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A. Because of a sentence in -- the last sentence in the 

third paragraph.

Q. What is it about the last sentence in the third paragraph 

that caused you to send the letter to the FBI?

A. In the context of the entire letter, particularly the 

third paragraph, the last sentence said, "Serious 

repercussions could ensue as a result," and I wanted to be 

cautious and I saw that as a potential threat.

Q. A threat to whom?

A. I was primarily concerned about Senator Hatch and the 

people in his office.

Q. Did you receive another letter after this one?

A. I did.

Q. Before you do you have what has been marked as Hamas 

Letter No. 2?

A. This is it.

Q. This is the second letter you received? 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, at this time I offer into 

evidence Hamas Letter No. 2.

MR. CLINE: No objection.

THE COURT: Admitted. 

MR. JONAS: And for the record, when I say 2 I mean 

the number 2. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) What is the date of this letter?

A. 25 October, 1995.

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Q. Okay. 

MR. JONAS: If we can put that on the screen, 

please. 

Q. (BY MR. JONAS) Again does it have the Hamas letterhead?

A. It does.

Q. Is it sent from the same person who sent the last letter?

A. It is. It was.

Q. Could you please read this letter?

A. "Mr. Orrin Hatch, Chairman of the Senate Judiciary 

Committee." 

"Dear Mr. Hatch: 

"As you must already know Dr. Musa Abu Marzuq, Head of 

Hamas Political Bureau, was arrested on the 25th of July upon 

his arrival at New York's JFK Airport on a private perfectly 

legal visit in the company of his family. His visit was aimed 

at attending to some private business matters having been a 

legal resident of the United States of America long before 

1991. Although initially held allegedly for Immigration 

reasons, the entire case has been transformed into a purely 

political one as soon as Israel formally applied for his 

extradition. The sharp and rapid turn of this case has taken 

proves beyond doubt that the U.S. administration has since the 

beginning contemplated handing him over to the Israelis, in 

spite of the fact that throughout his 14-year stay in the 

United States he had been a law abiding person never charged 

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with any violation.

"We urge you to intervene personally and exert all the 

pressure you can in order to dissuade the U.S. administration 

from proceeding with this case and to demand it to reject the 

Israeli application for his extradition. Dr. Abu Marzuq has 

never been involved in any hostility against the United States 

of America, and the movement in which he presides over the 

political bureau has never carried out any attacks on the 

American interests or people. Hamas's struggle has always 

been strictly confined to resisting the Zionist occupation of 

Palestine.

"The efforts you make with the U.S. administration will 

undoubtedly contribute to preventing the infliction of more 

injustices upon the Palestinian people, who have regrettable 

experiences adopted by successive U.S. administrations against 

the legitimate struggle of the Palestinians for liberation 

from Israeli occupation. The continued detention or the 

handing over of Dr. Abu Marzuq to the Israelis will provoke a 

wave of outrage against the United States in various parts of 

the Arab and Muslim countries and elsewhere in the world by a 

freedom loving peoples. 

"We wish that through your good offices Dr. Abu Marzuq 

will be released and allowed to leave peacefully to a country 

of his own choice. 

"Yours sincerely, Ibrahim Ghousheh, Hamas spokesman."

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Q. Did Senator Hatch intervene on behalf of Doctor Marzook?

A. He did not. 

Q. What did you do with this letter after you received it?

A. I put this in my file.

Q. Did you send it to the FBI or the Department of Justice 

afterwards?

A. I did not.

Q. How come?

A. Because it did not have the same letter that had caused 

concern -- the same sentence that had caused concern to me as 

the previous letter had.

Q. You testified that it was your understanding at the time 

of the receipt of the letters that Doctor Marzook was detained 

at JFK. 

A. Correct.

Q. Just so we are clear, that is John F. Kennedy Airport in 

New York?

A. That is correct.

Q. Was he during the whole time period of these letters from 

-- I believe the first one is August, the date of the first 

letter? 

A. Correct.

Q. To October, was he always detained at JFK, to your 

understanding?

A. That is my understanding.

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Q. Do you know what ultimately happened to him?

A. He left and was returned to Jordan. 

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, no further questions. 

THE COURT: Any counsel have any questions? 

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Yes, Your Honor. 

CROSS EXAMINATION

By Mr. Mysliwiec: 

Q. Good afternoon. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. My name is Aaron Mysliwiec and I represent Mohammad 

El-Mezain.

Sir, at the time you received these letters you worked 

for Senator Hatch?

A. That is correct.

Q. And he was one of two senators from Utah?

A. Correct.

Q. And you started working for him in '94?

A. Correct.

Q. And you were working as his primary foreign policy 

advisor for approximately a decade? Not before you received 

the letters, but in sum total. 

A. Correct.

Q. From '94 to roughly 2005?

A. Correct.

Q. Let's talk about the two Hamas letters. The first letter 

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was dated August 1st of 1995. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And it was addressed to Senator Hatch?

A. That is right.

Q. There is an official letterhead on it, as you pointed 

out. Right?

A. That is right.

Q. Official Hamas letterhead. Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And the letter provides a phone number for Hamas. 

A. Correct.

Q. And also provides a fax number for Hamas?

A. That is right.

Q. And it is signed by a person who identifies himself as a 

Hamas spokesman. Correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. So using the information on this letter, it looks like if 

a person wanted to contact Hamas they could call that phone 

number. Right?

A. That would be a proper assumption, I think.

Q. Right. And if they wanted to send a letter to Hamas, 

they could write the letter and send it to the fax number. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. Both letters focus on a person named Doctor Marzuq. 

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Right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he is identified as the head of the Hamas Political 

Bureau?

A. Correct.

Q. He came to the U.S. on this occasion on July 25th of 

1995. 

A. That is the fact that is stated. I don't have 

independent memory of whether that fact is correct, but I 

don't doubt it.

Q. And that was about a week before the first letter. 

A. That is right.

Q. And when he came to the U.S. he came on an airplane. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. A commercial flight. 

A. I presume.

Q. Okay. To JFK Airport, which as you stated is in New York 

City. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. He wasn't traveling alone. 

A. The letters state he was with his family.

Q. So he came here with his family. 

He didn't use a fake name. Right? 

A. I am assuming that this is his name. I don't have 

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independent knowledge of whether it is his real name or not.

Q. I mean, when he traveled to the U.S.--

MR. JONAS: Your Honor, I am going to object because 

I think we are going outside the purview of the knowledge of 

the witness.

MR. MYSLIWIEC: Well, I am asking the witness those 

questions.

THE COURT: He can ask the questions. If he doesn't 

know, he can say so.

Q. (BY MR. MYSLIWIEC) When he came to the U.S. on a flight, 

he came as Dr. Mousa Abu Marzook. Right?

A. That is as it is reported.

Q. He didn't come using some other name. Right?

A. Not to my recollection.

Q. And when he came to the U.S. in July of 1995, he had 

already lived in the U.S. for more than a decade. Right?

A. This I know from refreshing my memory.

Q. Okay. So you know it from refreshing your memory. 

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And you know he lived in the U.S. for more than a decade 

before this date?

A. I couldn't tell you whether it was more than a decade or 

not, but I know he had been a long-time resident.

Q. And when he lived in the U.S. as a long-time resident, he 

lived under the name Dr. Mousa Abu Marzook. Right?

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A. I don't know that.

Q. Now, when he was arrested in 1995, he was detained until 

about 1997. Right?

A. I know that he was detained for a long period. If you 

say 1997, I don't recall the dates.

Q. The exact dates. But when you say a long period, when 

you say you know it was a long period, you mean you know it 

was at least several months. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And after at least several months the United States 

finally reached a point where they stopped holding Doctor 

Marzook. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. And when they stopped holding him, he was put on a plane. 

Right?

A. Correct.

Q. And that plane wasn't to Israel. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. It was to Jordan. 

A. Correct.

MR. MYSLIWIEC: I have no further questions, Your 

Honor.

THE COURT: Any other counsel? 

MR. CLINE: No, Your Honor.

MR. WESTFALL: No, Your Honor.

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MS. CADEDDU: No, Your Honor.

MS. HOLLANDER: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Jonas, any redirect? 

MR. JONAS: One second, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Sure. 

MR. JONAS: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Matulic, you are free to go. Thank 

you.

Next witness? 

MR. JACKS: Atef Shafik. 

(Whereupon, the oath was administered by the Court.)

ATEF SHAFIK,

Testified on direct examination by Mr. Jacks as follows:

Q. Would you tell us your name, please?

A. Atef Shafik. 

Q. And how are you employed, Mr. Shafik?

A. By the FBI.

Q. And how long have you been employed by the FBI?

A. Over ten years.

Q. And where are you assigned or stationed within the FBI?

A. The Dallas office.

Q. And have you been assigned to the Dallas field office 

your entire career with the FBI?

A. Correct.

Q. What is your position within the FBI?

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A. I am a language analyst.

Q. And what is a language analyst?

A. Language analysts are translators who basically translate 

materials from Arabic into English and vice versa.

Q. And let me just ask you in terms of your personal 

background, where were you born?

A. I was born in Cairo, Egypt.

Q. And is that where you grew up?

A. Correct; until I was 27 years old.

Q. And when you left Egypt, where did you go?

A. I came to Dallas, Texas.

Q. Okay. Is Arabic your native language?

A. Correct.

Q. Is Arabic the language that is spoken in Egypt?

A. Correct.

Q. Let me ask you about your educational background. When 

you were growing up, did you attend private or public schools?

A. Public schools.

Q. And in terms of your secondary education, did you go to 

college?

A. Yes, I went to a four-year college. I graduated with a 

bachelor in English literature in 1986.

Q. And what college did you attend?

A. It is called the Faculty of Languages, and this is part 

of the Ain Shams University.

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Q. Can you spell that, please?

A. Certainly. Ain, A-I-N, Shams is spelled S-H-A-M-S.

Q. And you said your degree was in what subject?

A. In English literature.

Q. And does that include like Shakespeare and the classics, 

that type of English literature?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. You said that you came to the United States 

at what age?

A. Twenty-seven years old.

Q. And are you a United States citizen?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. When did you -- What year did you come to the United 

States?

A. I came in March 1991.

Q. When did you become a United States citizen?

A. October 1996.

Q. In the interim, in that time period what kind of work did 

you do?

A. Until I became a U.S. citizen? 

Q. Yes.

A. I was working for the Hyatt Regency Hotel at the 

Dallas/Fort Worth Airport as a food and beverage assistant 

manager. 

Q. Did there come a time when you began your employment with 

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the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

A. Correct. As soon as I obtained my U.S. citizenship in 

October of 1996, I applied for the language analyst position.

Q. Was that something that even before you became a citizen 

that you were interested in doing?

A. Absolutely. This is where my education is and that is 

where my heart is--language, literature, translation. I was 

unable to apply before I obtained my citizenship, and as soon 

as I became a citizen I applied.

Q. Did you have to undergo a background check or background 

investigation?

A. Yes, a very extensive one.

Q. Do you have a security clearance now?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What level is it?

A. It is called SCI clearance.

Q. What does SCI stand for?

A. Secret compartmented information.

Q. Is that above top secret?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Can you please describe the process which one must go 

through in order to become an FBI language analyst?

A. After submitting the application, there is a very 

extensive language test. It is actually a battery of multiple 

level of tests. An applicant for the position is tested on 

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his oral, written, and dialect proficiency in the Arabic test.

Q. You said oral, written, and dialect?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. In terms of who it is that submits these tests or 

tenders these tests to you, who are the people that are 

testing applicants?

A. They are senior linguists, linguists with the FBI.

Q. Okay. You made reference in your answer to dialects. 

Can you tell us or explain what you mean by different 

dialects?

A. The Arabic language has multiple dialects, and to be 

hired as a language analyst, Arabic language analyst, you have 

to show proficiency in multiple dialects. For instance, my 

dialect is Egyptian language of dialect. I have to know 

multiple dialects in order to be hired with the FBI.

Q. Can you name some of the dialects that exist in the 

Arabic language?

A. Certainly. There is the Moroccan dialect, the Egyptian 

dialect which is my native one, the Levantine dialects, the 

Gulf dialects of Arabic, to name a few.

Q. When you make reference or when it is referred to as the 

Gulf dialects, what is it referring to? Is it a geographical 

area?

A. Yes. It merely covers the countries of Saudi Arabia, 

Bahrain, Emirates, Qatar, and there is another dialect called 

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the Yemeni dialect.

Q. Okay. And those countries, are they located on the Saudi 

Arabian peninsula?

A. Correct.

Q. Now you mentioned Levantine dialect, and what is the 

basis of that name?

A. It is actually a historical name, but that covers the 

countries of Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and Syria and Lebanon.

Q. Okay. That geographical area with Lebanon, Syria, 

Jordan, and Israel and Palestine, what is it called?

A. The al-Sham country in Arabic, spelled A-L S-H-A-M, and 

that.

Q. Is that one word or two?

A. It is two words hyphenated.

Q. What other name does it refer to?

A. It is known as the Levantine dialect.

Q. Okay. In terms of the different dialects is there -- Can 

you give us an example, say, in English that would explain the 

concept of different dialects within the same language?

A. The difference between the dialects of Arabic is really 

no difference than between the dialects in the English 

language, for instance, like there is American English, there 

is British English, and there is Australian English. The 

difference will be in relation to mainly two areas would be 

pronunciation and word choice.

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Q. Okay. So within the Arabic language are there unique 

expressions or sayings that might be indicative of a 

particular dialect or part of the world?

A. That is correct. Each dialect has a lot of its own slang 

expressions or idioms.

Q. Okay. So in English if an Australian says "Good day, 

mate," that is indicative of that dialect of English. Is that 

a fair example?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. What about, for example, between the United Kingdom and 

America as far as terminology, what they might call objects? 

Can you give an example of that?

A. Certainly, like what we would the subway in the United 

States is called the tube in Britain, for instance.

Q. Tube?

A. Yes.

Q. And those kinds of differences would also exist within 

the Arabic language in the different dialects?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Okay. When you were growing up in Cairo, you said you 

went to public schools?

A. Yes.

Q. First of all, do you have any idea how big Cairo is as 

far as population?

A. The current population is around 20 million people.

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Q. The city is around 20 million?

A. Correct.

Q. Were you exposed in growing up within Cairo to all these 

different dialects?

A. Pretty much. Cairo has very strong well-known 

universities, and it was very common for Arab students from 

all over the Middle East to come to seeking education, so 

where I lived, where I went to school, where I played, there 

was Arab students from Lebanon, from Morocco, from Algeria, 

from pretty much everywhere in the outer worlds.

Q. When applying to be a language analyst, is there -- You 

said there is several tests that you are required to take. Is 

that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And I take it you are scored on those tests. Is that 

correct?

A. Yes. I scored a perfect score in Arabic, which is five 

out of five, and because of that I was certified later as a 

tester applying the Arabic oral test to new applicants.

Q. All right. So now your role is reversed in that you are 

one of those people that examines people that are trying to 

become analysts with the FBI?

A. Correct.

Q. Are you now considered a senior language analyst within 

the FBI?

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A. Yes, I am.

Q. Other than actually translating, you have mentioned that 

one of the things you do is to test other applicants. What 

other responsibilities do you have or what other work do you 

do as a language analyst?

A. I also train new linguists. There is a long list of 

rules and regulations regarding translation and FBI policies 

and regulations. Due to my seniority as a linguist, I am a 

trainer. And also due to my seniority, I am often picked for 

international assignments to interpret. 

Q. Have you been selected or received any advanced training 

as a language analyst?

A. Yes. I have been to a number of advanced training, most 

recently for two weeks consecutive interpreting training in 

Monterey, California in this past August.

Q. And do you know what facility is located in Monterey, 

California that you attended this training?

A. It is called the Monterey Institute of International 

Studies.

Q. Okay. Other than being familiar with the different 

dialects within the Arabic language, what else do you do to 

improve or maintain your ability to serve as a language 

analyst?

A. The most important item that keeps my language sharp is 

the extensive reading I do, and that covers books in both 

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Arabic and English languages, new literature, the fact that I 

spend the first part of my day reading extensively about the 

daily events, political, religious, and other events in the 

Middle East. Due to my security clearance also I have access 

to advanced reports that are made available to only a handful 

of linguists like myself, and just being familiar with the 

region the developments, the fact that I read extensively.

Q. So in terms of -- Is what you are saying is that you keep 

up with current events?

A. Correct.

Q. And the sources that you turn to to keep up your 

knowledge of current events consists of what?

A. There are three main sources. The first one is Arabic 

and English literature. When I select Arabic literature to 

lead, I deliberately select literature written by writers from 

all over the Middle East, not just one country. That gives me 

the familiarity with the new expressions that are coined, how 

words are used. For instance, the introduction -- the 

internet created a host of new terminology in Arabic language, 

and I deliberately read Arabic books on the internet, for 

instance, to be able to be familiar with the new terminology 

on that field.

The second source would be media outlets, and I spend a 

great deal of my day reading different publications in Arabic 

and in English that focus or discuss events in the Middle 

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East, the politics, the religions, the conflicts, the customs, 

the traditions of that part.

And the third aspect, as I mentioned, is the intelligence 

community, classified reports that come across my desk.

Q. Could you give an example of why you have to keep up with 

current events as it relates to doing your job every day; why 

that would matter if you are, you know, looking at a document 

or listening to a telephone conversation?

A. Because really the events that take place over here are 

directly related to events in the Middle East. For instance, 

if there is an event that happens in Gaza, I have to be 

familiar with that event. I have to know what happened 

exactly. So this way if that event is referenced in a call, I 

know exactly what the event is. 

In order to be successful, it is not enough for me to be 

just familiar with the language. I have to know the events of 

the Middle East to be able to produce correct translations.

Q. In your career within the FBI, you said that as a part of 

your work now that you work on other investigations. Can you 

give an example of other investigations that you have worked 

on separate and apart from here in the Dallas office?

A. Certainly. I took part in the investigation of the 

bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen, and also I took part in the 

debriefing detainees in Guantanamo Bay, and I took part in the 

investigation with InfoCom.

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Q. Okay. And in terms and in your debriefing of people at 

Guantanamo, was that simply as a translator?

A. No, not just an interpreter. Other than providing the 

meaning of the words that were said, I was also a cultural 

advisor advising the agents on the meaning of things, what do 

things mean beyond words, the culture, the tradition, the 

religion. All these are important aspects of the 

investigation that I was advising on.

Q. And when you were doing this were you doing it in -- Were 

you working with other FBI agents when these interviews were 

being done and you were translating?

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, at this time I would tender 

Mr. Shafik to the Court as an expert in the translation of the 

Arabic language. 

THE COURT: Is this the witness you were planning on 

going -- The issue we discussed this morning? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: So you are tendering him as an 

expert -- 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir, and the portion that was at 

issue will be later in the examination. 

THE COURT: Okay. 

MR. CLINE: I think there is no objection to him as 

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a translator. We would appreciate the opportunity to address 

that other issue when it comes up.

THE COURT: He is accepted as an expert in the area 

of language translation, Arabic to English and vice versa. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Mr. Shafik, you said that you have been 

with the FBI since what year? I am sorry to make you repeat 

it. 

A. Since January of 1998.

Q. And you have been in Dallas, except for when you would be 

called away for other assignments, but the Dallas office of 

the FBI has been your primary station or assignment. Is that 

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. With regard to -- Have you worked on the investigation of 

the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And when did you begin to work on the investigation of 

the Holy Land Foundation?

A. Almost immediately after my initial training in 1998.

Q. Were there other language analysts that preceded you that 

were working on this investigation?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. Can you just tell us, in the course of working on that 

investigation what type of materials or documents have you 

examined and translated?

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A. Material included phone conversations, documents, 

videotapes, cassette tapes computer evidence, faxes.

Q. Faxes?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And I take it these documents, the originals 

of these documents were in Arabic. Is that correct?

A. Correct.

Q. The documents that you reviewed, were they typewritten or 

handwritten or both?

A. They were both.

Q. And just for the education of us, in the Arabic language 

is the writing from, like in English, from left to right, or 

is it from right to left?

A. It is from right to left.

Q. So the beginning of a sentence or a page begins at the 

upper right hand corner. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you go across the page to the left?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. You said -- Let me ask you, have you reviewed 

magazines?

A. Correct, magazines, books brochures, pamphlets.

Q. Okay. And you said you have reviewed documents from a 

computer. Is that what you said?

A. Yes.

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Q. Okay. So you are meaning documents that would be in 

electronic form from a computer?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. You said you have reviewed videotapes. Have 

you also reviewed audiotapes?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you mentioned that you had reviewed conversations, 

and these conversations, were some of these conversations, or 

many of these conversations, conversations that were 

intercepted pursuant to a court order?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. What type of court order were you talking about?

A. It is called the FISA, which is short for the Foreign 

Intelligence Surveillance Act. It is the act of law that 

grants FBI authority to intercept electronic communications.

Q. So were many of the conversations that you translated 

audio recordings of these intercepted conversations?

A. Correct.

Q. And could you just briefly tell us, what is the procedure 

that you would follow when you would be tasked or expected to 

listen to conversations and translate them?

A. Initially I was requested to provide a summary of a lot 

of the conversation. And to produce a summary, I would listen 

first to the entire phone call with a note pad and pen in my 

hand, I would be taking notes on things like the parties of 

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the conversation, the subject of the conversations, dates, 

times, places, and after I am done listening I begin my 

summary. I listen to a portion of it and then I summarize it 

and then I continue until the call is finished.

Q. All right. And I don't know that I made it clear from my 

question, but my question was centered around FISA intercepted 

calls. Is that what your answer was dealing with?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. What kind of equipment -- I know you said you use 

a pad and a pen, but what other equipment do you have?

A. I have access to computer and software which really 

collects these phone calls, and they are kept in a certain 

database. When I arrive to work, after I log into the system 

I can retrieve all the calls that came during my absence. I 

can select them to play, pause, fast forward, rewind, slow 

down the conversation. I have access to a number of tools 

that can assist me in producing the translations.

Q. All right. So you are not, at least from your tenure 

with the FBI, you are not sitting down with a cassette 

recorder and putting in a cassette tape and listening to it. 

Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Yes, that is correct that you are not doing 

that?

A. It is correct that I was not using a cassette tape to 

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produce summaries of the phone conversations.

Q. Would you work at a computer with a keyboard?

A. Yes.

Q. You said that you would listen to the conversation and 

then create a summary?

A. Initially it was a summary, yes.

Q. Would you do that with every conversation?

A. Not every conversation; only the conversations that are 

labeled pertinent.

Q. All right. And is that something that is first done by 

you or a language analyst?

A. Yes.

Q. As far as determining -- And give us an example of a 

conversation that would with not listened to or not deemed 

pertinent?

A. For instance, a conversation between children that center 

around homework, a wife talking to a female friend about the 

latest sale at the mall, that would be non-pertinent.

Q. Okay. And then you said you would do first a summary, 

and generally how long would a summary be in terms of pages 

or -- 

A. Depending on the length of the call, it could be anywhere 

from a paragraph to five, six, ten pages.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you, before you even begin to listen to 

these calls, do you have any conversation with the agents or 

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people that are working on the case or the other language 

analysts?

A. That is correct. I start listening to the calls, there 

are monthly or even weekly meetings with the case agents. 

During these meetings language analysts, like myself, are 

briefed on the allegations against the Defendants, the items 

of interest that would further the investigation, and these 

are what we call the pertinent information that are targets 

for summary or verbatim.

Q. Is that so you have some idea of what you should be 

listening for or what would be relevant?

A. Correct. 

Q. You said that you had been working on the Holy Land case 

since 1998. Let me ask you, in the course of listening to 

audiotapes of telephone calls, have you become able to 

recognize and identify the voices of the individuals that you 

have heard on those telephone calls or audiotapes?

A. Yes.

Q. And how is it that you are able to identify the people on 

these conversations?

A. Well, initially people might identify themselves when 

making a phone call, or the other person they are talking to 

might call them by name, or might call them by their alias, 

and then also after initial introductions are made, the voice 

becomes familiar when you listen to it every day for the 

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number of years I have.

Q. All right. Do the uniqueness or distinctiveness of the 

voices become familiar to you?

A. Very much so.

Q. Are you able to identify the voices of the Defendants in 

this case now?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Are you able to identify the voice of, for example, 

Shukri Abu Baker?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Mohammad El-Mezain?

A. Yes.

Q. Ghassan Elashi?

A. Yes.

Q. Mufid Abdulqader?

A. Yes.

Q. Abdul Odeh?

A. Yes.

Q. Over time have you also seen them either in photographs 

or in person such that you can identify them in person as 

well?

A. Correct. I have seen photographs. I have seen most of 

them on TV, and I have met a few of them in person.

Q. Okay. Could you identify the Defendant Shukri Abu Baker 

and just tell the Court what he is wearing?

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A. He is seated over there. I believe he is wearing a dark 

suit and gray shirt and tie. Yes, that is Mr. Shukri.

Q. And Mr. Odeh, can you identify him?

A. Yes. He is on the angle of the table with the glasses 

reading something.

Q. Mr. El-Mezain?

A. Next to him in the light white beard.

Q. And the Defendant Ghassan Elashi?

A. He is down there in the light suit and the light tie.

Q. And the Defendant Mufid Abdulqader?

A. The dark suit and the red tie.

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, may the record reflect he 

has identified the Defendants in this case? 

THE COURT: It may do so. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) In terms of identifying the voices of the 

people you listened to for so long, were you able to, not only 

of these individuals here, but were you able to identify the 

voices of other persons that you listen to that were 

encountered in this investigation?

A. That is correct. I was able and I am able today to 

identify voices of many individuals that were in contact with 

the officers of the Holy Land Foundation.

Q. Okay. Specifically an individual by the name of Abdel 

Haleem Ashqar, have you listened to his voice and can you 

identify him?

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A. Yes.

Q. A person by the name of Muin Shabib, M-U-I-N 

S-H-A-B-I-B?

A. Yes, I can identify his voice.

Q. And would that be true of many other persons that you 

listened to over this extended period of time?

A. That is correct.

Q. You told us about making summaries of the calls. And at 

some point in time if a call is deemed necessary or important, 

is something beyond a summary prepared or created by you?

A. Yes. Some of these calls were selected for verbatim 

translations by the case agents.

Q. And when you say verbatim, what are you talking about?

A. Verbatim translation is translation of the entire call, 

100 percent of the meanings that were exchanged in the call.

Q. All right. So in a verbatim, does it have a line for one 

speaker and shows who the speaker is and then the next speaker 

and so on and so forth? Is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Is there a difference between a literal translation and a 

verbatim translation?

A. There is a huge difference between both. Literal 

translation is called word for word translation, and it seldom 

produces a correct. Meaning in linguistic circles it is 

referred to as machine translations, and oftentimes it can 

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produce a completely different meaning than the original.

Verbatim translation, on the other hand, are 100 percent 

of the meaning, correct and accurate meaning of the 

information.

Q. Okay. Is there any way -- How many of these FISA 

intercepted calls would you estimate that you have listened to 

during the course of this investigation?

A. At least thousands, if not more.

Q. Thousands?

A. Yes.

Q. Setting aside the intercepted calls but just talking 

about other audiotapes, whether they were seized in a search 

warrant or something else, have you also listened to those?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And with regard to -- You said you have also listened and 

looked at videotapes and translated those. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. In terms of just audiotapes, could you give an estimate 

or a guess as to how many of those you may have listened to?

A. In the hundreds.

Q. And videotapes?

A. Again in the hundreds.

Q. To put it in terms of pages, how many pages of documents 

would you estimate that you have translated during the course 

of this investigation?

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A. I would say at least in the hundreds of thousands of 

pages.

Q. Hundreds of thousands?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you the only translator or analyst working on the 

translation of these conversations and documents in this case?

A. I was the main linguist working on it, but there was some 

other linguists who were also assisting me in the 

translations.

Q. Okay. Would their work, for example, be reviewed by you 

or checked by you?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Did it -- Did the translations by these other 

persons ultimately come to your attention for checking or 

quality control?

A. That is correct. I had the final say. When the 

translations were completed by my colleagues, they were 

submitted to me, I reviewed them, I made some changes 

according to what I felt would be a correct translation, and I 

approved it as my own.

Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you, you testified that of the 

many things that you looked at, you looked at and translated 

magazines and books. Now, did you ever translate an entire 

book in this investigation?

A. Not an entire book. We initially summarized a lot of 

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books, and some segments of books or maybe chapters were 

selected for verbatim translations.

Q. And why was that done as opposed to translating the 

entire book word for word or verbatim, if you will?

A. Just due to the sheer size and the time constraints.

Q. Okay. Were there selections or excerpts from books, 

pages, if you will, that were translated verbatim?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. Are did you make any mistakes when you were doing these 

translations?

A. I typed hundreds of thousands of pages, and I am a human 

being. I am sure I made some mistakes here and there.

Q. All right. In terms of what would cause you to make a 

mistake, what are the problems that are presented when 

you -- What are the biggest obstacles as far as accuracy and 

-- Let me take it step by step. If you are listening to a 

conversation, what are the biggest obstacles to getting an 

accurate translation for a transcript?

A. For audio recordings, definitely the quality of the 

audio. Several audios were given to me many years after they 

were recorded. Audio quality tends to deteriorate over time. 

And also the fact that there could be several speakers 

speaking at the same time over each other, interrupting each 

other, and it makes it harder to dissect and put full 

sentences when four or five people speak at the same time.

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Q. Do you wear headphones when you are doing this?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Are you in a quiet room when you are trying to do this?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And you said that this is when you go through the process 

of stopping, pausing, backing up, whatever?

A. Correct. I try to do my best as far as understanding 

every word that is said. However, sometimes that becomes 

almost impossible.

Q. How about a handwritten document? What obstacles are 

there for a translator with regard to a handwritten document?

A. Really bad handwriting is the biggest obstacle to a 

correct translation. I have translated a number of documents 

that was horrible handwriting. Also many times I am given a 

copy of a copy of an original, and that a lot of times it 

often makes it harder for me to read a word or part of a 

sentence or so.

Q. You mean a photocopy?

A. Yes, correct.

Q. Okay. When you reach a point where you are just, you 

know, you cannot determine, you know, what is being said or 

necessarily -- Let me go back first to what is being said. Is 

there a symbol or a notation that you put down?

A. Yes. I would insert the letters UI for unintelligible 

between square brackets.

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Q. Unintelligible, is that what you said?

A. Yes.

Q. And then what about where if it is -- the identity of the 

speaker is unknown or can't be determined, what kind of 

notation do you put down?

A. If it is unknown male, I would put UM for unknown male; 

and unknown female, I would insert UF for unknown female.

Q. And I think you said that part of your work in terms of 

reading up on what is going on is something you have to do to 

be good at your job. Do you recall when you were talking 

about that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. So if you are listening to a conversation and the 

speaker makes a comment about something, is it necessary for 

you to know what is going on to put that comment in context?

A. Absolutely. If there were -- during this investigation 

there was many references to events that took place in the 

Middle East, particularly in Gaza and the West Bank, and that 

is an area that has events everyday almost. 

Again, in order for me to understand the references to 

these events, I begin my day by reading what happens over the 

past eight hours in this area. And that is a process that I 

continue many times during the day, not just in the morning. 

This way when a reference is made to an event in Gaza, for 

instance, I am completely aware of that event.

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Q. What is your duty or your purpose or function as it 

relates to helping the agents? What is your expectation or 

responsibility?

A. My responsibility is initially to translate the material 

into English, and to also give the meaning behind the words. 

Oftentimes words do not convey the correct meaning, or maybe 

conveys a portion of the meaning. My biggest duty other than 

translation is to advise of the meaning, the meaning that 

stems from the culture, from the traditions, from the politics 

of the Middle East, which is heavily involved in this case.

Q. When you do a translation, is it necessary for you to 

keep in mind or be aware of what was said in earlier calls 

either between different people or the same people?

A. Correct. I have to be aware of what was said before and 

after in relation to the subjects of the conversation.

Q. What do you do if you have a question about you are not 

sure about either a translation or an expression that you 

hear? What do you do in that instance?

A. I have many colleagues that can consult both in the 

Dallas Division and also nationwide. The way the linguists 

are categorized within the FBI is by native country, so if I 

am working on a Yemeni document, for instance, I may come 

across a Yemeni expression that I am not familiar with, I have 

a list I look up for a colleague in a different part of the 

country I can call him or her and ask her about that meaning 

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of that expression.

Q. Are Arabic language analysts within the FBI linked 

together like in an email group or anything where they can 

easily communicate with each other?

A. Yes. We are linked by many ways. Email is one of them, 

phone conference is another one.

Q. You were just talking about expressions or slang terms or 

something like that. As in English, are there slang terms or 

expressions or idioms in the Arabic language?

A. Yes, there is hundreds of them.

Q. And when I talk about an expression say "kick the 

bucket," literally that might mean to kick the bucket, but it 

could also mean to die. Is that what you are talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. During the course of this case, did you hear one of the 

Defendants use the expression "give them" or "get it to the 

chickpea peddler or the lupine salesman"?

A. Yes. I believe that came in a conversation between Mr. 

Shukri Abu Baker and Mr. Mohammad El-Mezain.

Q. Okay. And what is a chickpea peddler or lupine salesman?

A. It is really a street peddler who sells snacks, chickpeas 

or lupine seeds, on a push cart. And when you go to purchase 

some of those seeds they wrap them in paper cones. 

The expression came -- the original of that came when 

people just tossed or get rid of the paper. Instead of 

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tossing them in the trash, they would give them to the 

chickpea peddler to wrap the seeds in.

Q. This peddler -- These are either dried or cooked or 

heated chickpeas?

A. They are not cooked. They are fresh.

Q. Like sunflower seeds in our culture?

A. They are very similar to that, yes.

Q. How are they served to a customer?

A. In a paper cone.

Q. Okay. Like a professionally manufactured paper cone, or 

just rolled up paper?

A. Rolled up paper. It could be newspapers. It could be 

old notebook papers.

Q. Okay. So the expression "Give it to the chickpea peddler 

or the lupine salesman," what does a person mean when they say 

that?

A. It means get rid of it.

Q. Okay. Do people recycle or give their excess trash or 

paper to these peddlers in the Middle East?

A. Yes. That is correct. You give them to the chickpea 

peddler if he happens to pass around.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you specifically about Arabic names. 

If you can kind of tell us a little bit about how Arabic names 

are determined. Is there a tradition in terms of how a 

person's Arabic name in terms of what it means or how many 

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words will be in the name?

A. Other than the given name given by the child's parents, 

of course, many men, Middle Eastern men, have what we call an 

Abu name.

Q. How do you spell that?

A. It is A-B-U.

Q. What is an Abu name?

A. Abu means literally father of, and that oftentimes 

happens when the male has a child and so he becomes known as 

Abu.

Q. Now, is it a son that you attach your Abu name to?

A. Correct.

Q. Not to a daughter, obviously. 

A. Most likely it is a son.

Q. Okay. And is it supposed to be any particular son that 

would cause that father to have a certain Abu name?

A. Usually it is the firstborn son.

Q. Okay. Now, can persons have an Abu name even though they 

may not have a son, or their son may not have the first name 

that they have an Abu name with?

A. That is correct. A person could have the -- Could be 

named like a historical figure in Islam's history, for 

instance, and that historical figure was known by a certain 

Abu name, so by extension the person who lives today would 

carry the same Abu name even if he doesn't have a son by this 

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name.

Q. All right. With regard to the Defendants, let me ask 

you, does Mohammad El-Mezain have an Abu name?

A. Yes, Abu Ibrahim.

Q. Is that two words?

A. Yes.

Q. And Shukri Abu Baker, does he have an Abu name that you 

have heard?

A. Yes, Abu Mohammed.

Q. And let me ask you about other persons that -- Are you 

familiar with an individual by the name of Omar Ahmed that you 

encountered in this case?

A. Yes. And he also goes by Abu Mohammed.

Q. And how about the individual I asked you about earlier 

Abdel Haleem Ashqar? Does he have an Abu name?

A. His Abu name is Abul Hassan.

Q. You are saying Abu or Abul, A-B-U-L?

A. A-B-U-L Hassan, which the E-L at the end the definite 

article in Mr. Ashqar's name.

Q. So some are A-B-U and some are A-B-U-L followed by 

another name?

A. Correct.

Q. This name Muin Shabib I asked you about, does he have an 

Abu name?

A. Yes, Abu Mohammed.

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Q. And do you know who Mousa Abu Marzook is?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Okay. What is his Abu name?

A. Abu Omar. 

Q. O-M-A-R?

A. Spelled either O-M-A-R or U-M-A-R.

Q. And does he also go by another name that you heard from 

these conversations?

A. Yes. He is often referred to as by the Arabic name A-L 

dash U-M-D-A, which is Arabic for the mayor.

Q. The mayor?

A. Yes.

Q. Like the mayor of a city?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Yasser Arafat, the former head of the PLO, did he 

have an Abu name?

A. Yes, Abu Ammar.

Q. And how do you spell the last word?

A. A-M-M-A-R.

Q. Was it one of your jobs in this investigation to explain 

or educate the agents about what certain Arabic words might 

mean?

A. Correct. That is in the heart of what I do for the FBI.

Q. Let me ask you about the word Umm, U-M-M, what does that 

mean in Arabic?

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A. It means mother of.

Q. Can you use it or give an example?

A. A lady, just like a man can be called Abu Mohammed, for 

instance, his wife would be Umm Mohammed, which mean 

Mohammed's mother.

Q. Ikhwan, I-K-H-W-A-N, what does that word represent?

A. Ikhwan is the word that is used by the Muslim Brotherhood 

to denote its members.

Q. And the word USRA, U-S-R-A?

A. USRA again is the smallest cell of the Muslim 

Brotherhood. Literally it means family.

Q. Literally it translates to family?

A. Yes. However in this investigation we write it as 

U-S-R-A, USRA.

Q. The word Shura, S-H-U-R-A?

A. Shura is the governing or advising board. 

Q. The word mojama?

A. Mojama is Arabic for complex or center.

Q. Okay. Sakhra?

A. Sakhra is Arabic for the rock.

Q. All right. In Arabic are certain words spelled 

differently? And by that I mean words such as Ahmed versus 

Ahmad, Mohammed with an M-O versus an M-U? Are the same words 

sometimes spelled differently?

A. Correct. Many Arabic names can be spelled many different 

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ways.

Q. Are certain letters used interchangeably?

A. Correct. Like Marzook can be spelled with a K or a Q at 

the end. Gammel could be spelled with a G or a J, and the 

same as el, the different article, could be spelled as an E-L 

or A-L.

Q. In looking -- In doing your translations and transcripts, 

Mr. Shafik, did you have occasions where you inserted brackets 

within the transcripts to inform the reader what was being 

spoken about?

A. Correct. There is many occasions where I had to insert a 

comment between square brackets, which is permissible by the 

linguist rules of the FBI, to explain or clarify a meaning.

Q. Can you give an example of when that would be necessary?

A. If a word is used in short in Arabic and the translation 

of this word would not convey the entire meaning, I am 

oftentimes forced to insert a full name of an organization 

between brackets so the reader of my translation will 

understand which organization is referred to.

Q. All right. Specifically let me ask you, did you -- Were 

there references during this investigation to an organization 

called the Islamic association of Palestine, or IAP? 

A. Correct. There were many references to IAP. 

Q. Were there references to an organization called the 

United Association for Studies and Research, UASR?

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A. Correct.

Q. Were there references to an organization called Muslim 

Arab Youth Association or MAYA?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. All three of those organizations have the word 

association in their title. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. But in Arabic are they the same words used in each name?

A. No. Each one of those organizations have a unique name 

in Arabic. When I hear the short word in Arabic for this 

organization, I have to insert a comment or clarify by giving 

the full name of the organization, because all three of them 

are called association in English.

Q. All right. So if a person is making reference to the 

Islamic Association of Palestine and they call it the 

Association, or whatever, you would put -- If it is the word 

for the IAP that is used for the IAP association, you would 

put IAP in brackets. Is that a fair statement?

A. Correct.

Q. For example, like the Palestine Liberation Organization, 

if they make reference to the Organization, what word 

translates to the use of the word Palestine Liberation 

Organization?

A. The Arabic word for it is al-Monazama, and it is spelled 

A-L dash M-O-N-A-Z-A-M-A.

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Q. So that would be the indications or instances -- Let me 

rephrase that. Whenever you would put brackets within a 

transcript, was it your purpose to explain the meaning of the 

transcript according to what the speakers were saying and 

based on your listening to them?

A. Correct. If there is a reference to IAP in Arabic, it 

will, for instance, be referred to as al-Ithad, which is 

spelled A-L I-T-H-A-D. To produce the translation and for 

the reader of my translation to understand which organization 

has just been referred to, I would insert between square 

brackets the full name of this organization.

Q. Let me just direct your attention to the Government 

exhibit list and ask you, Mr. Shafik, have you reviewed the 

items contained with the Government's exhibit list?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And does that include transcripts of conversations from 

FISA court authorized intercepted calls?

A. Yes.

Q. And does that include transcripts of FISA court 

authorized intercepted faxes?

A. Correct.

Q. And transcripts of conversations and languages or images 

from videotapes?

A. Yes.

Q. When you would look at a videotape, would you also -- if 

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you saw writing on a wall or a caption, would you translate 

that as well?

A. Yes, I would.

Q. Have you reviewed the audiotapes on the Government's list 

and the translations and transcriptions from that?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And the documents on the Government's exhibit list, have 

you reviewed all of them?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Is it your testimony that all of the translations that 

you have done represent a true and accurate translation of 

either the document, the audiotape, the videotape, a book, 

pamphlet, and their contents, to the best of your ability?

A. Yes, that is my testimony. 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, at this time I would be 

moving into that area that we need to discuss outside the 

presence of the jury.

THE COURT: Okay. 

Members of the jury, we will go ahead and let you go for 

the day. Be back at 9:00 tomorrow morning. Please recall the 

instructions we have been over about not discussing this case 

with anyone. See you back in the morning. 

(Whereupon, the jury left the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Be seated. 

Mr. Jacks, did you want to go ahead? 

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MR. JACKS: At the Court's pleasure.

THE COURT: Let's take care of that. 

Q. (BY MR. JACKS) Mr. Shafik, in listening to all the 

conversations and reviewing the documents, were there several 

instances where the speaker would use phrases such as "God 

willing," "by God," "by Almighty God," "in the name of God," 

"the Beneficent," "the Merciful," "may God greet you," "peace 

be upon you," "may God reward you," "Mohammed, peace be on His 

name," phrases such as that, was that something that occurred 

often in the speaking by the people you were listening to?

A. Yes, very often.

Q. Do you recall with regard to what has been referred to as 

the Philadelphia meeting or conference, did you translate the 

transcripts of those intercepted conversations?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. Do you recall on one of the sessions in that meeting 

where one of the speakers, and it may have been Omar Ahmed, I 

can't recall, but made the reference or made a comment, and I 

will paraphrase, that "we will not be able to hide who we are 

because as soon as we talk it will be apparent who we are"? 

Do you recall that statement or conversation?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. With regard to the speakers and this use of all this 

other language about God willing, by Almighty God, in your 

experience what is that indicative of when an Arabic speaker 

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uses those types of terms within their conversation?

A. It is indicative of a person who is known as an Islamist.

Q. Islamist?

A. Yes.

Q. I-S-L-A-M-I-S-T?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. And is that different than just saying they 

are a Muslim?

A. Correct. That is different.

Q. Are there Muslims who are not Islamists?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And an Islamist, in your understanding and 

background and training, what is that person?

A. An Islamist, according to my experience, is a person who 

is a devout Muslim, a person who observes all the tenants of 

Islam. And also an Islamist is a person who believes that 

sharia is a law of rule, and that will be the only valid rule 

that he would like to be subjected to. An Islamist is also a 

person who completely rejects peace with Israel and sees that 

armed resistance or jihad is the only form of acceptable 

encounter with Israel.

Q. And have you been around persons that have led you to 

this conclusion?

A. I grew up in Cairo where the Muslim Brotherhood took its 

start. As a matter of fact, the part of Cairo I grew up in 

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was where the headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood was. 

Their slogans, their speeches, their statements were all over 

Cairo. I went to college and there was several Islamist 

students there that were known to be members of the Muslim 

Brotherhood, and would cast themselves as such, and they would 

be segregated, refusing to mingle with anybody else who was 

non-Islamist.

Q. And in that regard, you are -- This is based on your 

entire experience in growing up in Cairo and being around 

people who speak the Arabic language?

A. My personal experience is partly for that, partly 

responsible for this belief, but also there are many books I 

have read about Muslim Brotherhood, about Hamas, about Islamic 

jihad, about the history, about the politics, about the 

religions of the Middle East.

Q. With regard to non-Islamists, would they speak this way 

to this extent?

A. No, that would not be their normal conversation.

Q. And, for example, let me just -- To try to illustrate it, 

with regard to say, for example, persons within the PLO or 

Fatah, would you expect them to speak in this fashion?

A. Not at all. Fatah or the PLO are known to be secular 

organizations and they would not use this kind of conversation 

or dialogue.

Q. Just for example, Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt, 

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is he a Muslim?

A. He is.

Q. All right. And does he speak like this, or would you 

expect him to speak like this in conversation?

A. No, I would not expect him to speak like that because he 

is not an Islamist.

MR. DRATEL: I object to that. He is talking about 

someone he has never spoken with this person. I don't know 

that he has ever had a conversation with this person.

THE COURT: He is trying to lay a predicate. I will 

overrule the objection at this point. He is trying to lay a 

predicate. 

MR. JACKS: Just a moment, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Sure. 

MR. JACKS: That is all I have, Your Honor. I 

haven't passed him.

THE COURT: I understand. This is all laying a 

predicate. 

Anybody want to take this -- Ms. Duncan? 

MS. DUNCAN: I think his testimony already has 

exposed the kind of bigotry that we were afraid of, that the 

fact that someone prays repeatedly throughout the day and 

praises God in their speech is a terrorist is what this man 

just said. 

I can cross examine him if you would like, or Mr. 

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Westfall can, but, I mean, to this point he has exposed 

exactly what we are afraid of, that just the mere fact that 

someone says peace be upon you and may God bless you turns 

this person into a terrorist. I mean, it is really offensive 

and contrary to our freedom of religion and to the First 

Amendment in this country. It is irrelevant.

THE COURT: Any argument, or did you want to 

question or -- 

MR. WESTFALL: If it would be helpful to the Court. 

THE COURT: It might. 

MR. WESTFALL: Okay. 

Q. (BY MR. WESTFALL) Mr. Shafik?

A. Correct.

Q. Are you a Muslim?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been a Muslim?

A. Never.

Q. You didn't study religion in school. Right?

A. I did as part of my education in public schools I did.

Q. Well, are you a Christian, then?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. A practicing Christian?

A. Yes.

Q. Go to church on a regular basis?

A. Pretty much.

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Q. And you graduated with a degree in linguistics, language?

A. The official name is English literature. That included 

poetry, drama, translation, history of English language.

Q. Okay. And are you -- Did you ever go to a seminary or 

anything like that?

A. No, I did not.

Q. So the basis for your opinion is that you knew some 

Brotherhood folks in Egypt and you are a translator and you 

have read books. 

A. No. The basis of that is my own experience living in 

Cairo and seeing the Muslim Brotherhood, how they talk, how 

they phrase themselves, how they speak, how they make speeches 

all over, how they introduce themselves in elections for 27 

years.

Q. Have you ever been recognized as an expert on this in any 

other court?

A. No, I have not.

MR. WESTFALL: That is all I have, Your Honor. 

THE COURT: Mr. Dratel? 

MR. DRATEL: I just have one question. 

Q. (BY MR. DRATEL) Good afternoon, Mr. Shafik. 

A. Good afternoon.

Q. And you are Egyptian. Now, isn't it a fact that Egyptian 

technically is ruled by sharia law?

A. Not technically, no. There are many laws in Egypt that 

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have sharia elements in them, but they are not sharia 100 

percent.

Q. Is it the policy of Egyptian government that sharia law 

applies in Egypt?

A. In certain aspects of Egyptian law only.

Q. But sharia law applies in Egypt. 

A. As far as things like marriage, divorce, inheritance, 

yes, but not otherwise. 

Q. But that is sharia law applying in Egypt. 

A. Largely.

MR. DRATEL: Thank you.

THE COURT: Ms. Duncan? 

Q. (BY MS. DUNCAN) Now, you are aware that Yasser Arafat 

identified himself as a secularist, are you not?

A. Yes, I am aware of that.

Q. Are you also aware that he prayed five times a day?

A. Not according to the insider information I read he did 

not. 

Q. So you have never spoken to him about his religious 

practices so you don't know?

A. I do know, and as a matter of fact this was an item of 

reference during the conference during the Philadelphia 

conference --

Q. Let me break it up. When did you speak to Yasser Arafat?

A. I have never spoken to Yasser Arafat.

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Q. That was my question. 

You are aware that religious Muslims have a duty to pray 

five times a day.

A. Yes, I am aware of that.

Q. And that they also have a duty to praise God as often as 

possible. 

A. Correct.

Q. Now, I think you are testifying that people who say "God 

willing, "by God Almighty," in the name of God," the 

beneficent," "the Merciful," too often are Islamists?

A. That is correct.

Q. Bent on the destruction of Israel. That is your 

testimony?

A. I said Islamists are people who harbor the view that 

there can never be peace with Israel and can never recognize 

the right of Israeli to exist. That is --

Q. You identified them by people that say "God willing" or 

"by God" too often. 

A. No. I said that this is an indication of they are 

Islamists. This is just one of many traits.

Q. Well, but you are going to say that people who say -- 

begin their speech with words such as "by God" or "God 

willing," those are Islamists?

A. That is a good indication that they are Islamists.

Q. Okay. So my question is how often is too often? Can we 

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say "God willing" five times a day and that is within the 

Muslim faith?

A. Yes, you can say that a many times as you like.

Q. And so at what point is it, in your opinion, that you 

cross the line from being a devout Muslim fulfilling your 

religious obligation to praise God as often as possible and to 

someone bent on the destruction of Israel?

A. When every single speech you give with begins and ends 

with religious references by extensive quotation of the can 

Quran regarding the destruction of Jews -- 

Q. Stop. Stop. That is not what I asked you. 

THE COURT: I want to hear what he has to say. You 

cut him off twice, and both times that was improper. I want 

to hear what he has to say. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: Thank you. During the speech a person 

that makes extensive references to religious texts, quotes 

extensively from Quran, from Hadith, which is the sayings of 

profit Mohammed, and selects the text that talks about the 

destruction of the Jews and the internal rights of 

Palestinian, their land, things like "Palestine is an Islamic 

endowment, that Palestine is Islamic from the river to the 

sea," many of these references indicate that this person is an 

Islamist bent on the destruction of Israel.

Q. (BY MS. DUNCAN) But that is not what we are talking 

about. We are not talking about speech that expresses a 

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desire for the destruction of Israel. We are talking about 

speech that expresses an adoration for God and praise of God. 

A. Adoration of God is one element of a person's mindset, 

and that mindset, according to that, could be very well 

Islamist.

Q. I am confused here. Okay. So you testified that if 

someone quotes portions of the Quran that express an intent to 

destroy Israel that makes them into an Islamist?

A. I am sorry. I did not hear the last part.

Q. You testified that if someone is quoting portions of the 

Quran in support of an argument that Israel should be 

destroyed, that person is an Islamist. 

A. Correct.

Q. I am pushing that to the side because that is not what we 

are talking about here. What we are talking about here are 

things like "God bless you, may peace be upon you." Are you 

testifying that those sorts of expressions of religious belief 

are evidence that someone is an Islamist?

A. I am testifying that the speech, the Arabic speech of a 

person can identify him as a Muslim or as an Islamist. If a 

person is an Islamist, there are certain words that he or she 

chooses to express his views. He would not come to a person 

and say "Good morning." Instead he would choose a Muslim 

greeting. He would not just simply say "good-bye." He would 

choose a Muslim greeting. When he speaks he would constantly 

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make religious references constantly quotes from the Quran, 

constantly quotes from the Hadith. I am saying that there a 

speech in Arabic that can clearly distinguish between a normal 

Muslim and an Islamist.

Q. So if someone starts off, for example, a letter that says 

"In the name of God, the Beneficent and Merciful," that is 

passage from the Quran. Correct?

A. Yes.

Q. So that is something that a devout Muslim would say, and 

in fact does say five times a day. 

A. That is correct.

Q. Thank you. 

A. You are welcome. 

THE COURT: Any other questions? 

Mr. Jacks, anything else? 

MR. JACKS: No, sir.

THE COURT: So Mr. Shafik, just so I can be clear, 

in this case -- 

Mr. Jacks, are you going to ask him some opinions as to 

whether certain conversations, certain individuals that he has 

listened to and translated, that they are Islamists? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, Your Honor. And again, all of this 

is as a result of the fact that these individuals and the men 

that they were meeting with themselves made the statement that 

"Our speech will give us away." So it is not Mr. Shafik 

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saying that, but they themselves take the position that what 

they say tells something about who they are, not that they are 

Muslim.

THE COURT: But you are going to ask him his 

opinions based on some of these conversations he has 

intercepted and heard.

MR. JACKS: Yes, Your Honor. And I may ask him or 

not ask him to go to some of the degree that -- as far as what 

this represents, but certainly to the extent that a person 

that speaks in this manner is indicative of a person who is an 

Islamist.

THE COURT: And when you say who speaks in which 

manner, in this manner? 

MR. JACKS: I am not sure what you call it, Your 

Honor, but the comments that are reflected throughout the 

statements.

THE COURT: The conversations? 

MR. JACKS: Yes, sir, Your Honor. And it will be 

apparent when a person reads them.

THE COURT: And that is what I was going to ask. In 

those that you are asking him about, is it more than 

references to praise to God? Your initial question indicated 

that it was just based on those phrases, and what I heard you 

saying here it is actually more than that. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, a lot more than that.

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THE COURT: So are you going to render any opinions 

as to someone is an Islamist based solely on their reference 

to praising God, or are you talking about the other things you 

were talking about at the end here where -- quotes from the 

Quran, the destruction of Israel, some other language like 

that. Is that what you are relying on?

THE WITNESS: I am relying on ten years of 

translation where there is consistently an Islamist point of 

view being expressed. For instance, during the hundreds of 

videotapes I translated, there was always reference to the 

destruction of the Jews, annihilation of the Jews, Quran 

quotations, every single speaker pretty much repeated the same 

thing, the same rhetoric.

THE COURT: So it is that rhetoric you are relying 

on, along with other factors? 

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Jacks, it seems it is a little 

broader. I just misunderstood what you were indicating at the 

beginning. I think if it is based on what he is talking about 

now, I think he can give an opinion on that based on that kind 

of rhetoric and language. 

MS. CADEDDU: But Your Honor, I would just like to 

make it clear for the record, that the documents, the stuff he 

is relying on is going to be in the record. I mean, this is 

usurping the function of the jury. He is opining based on the 

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exhibits that are going to come in.

THE COURT: But I think someone with knowledge and 

skill, they are entitled to do that, and it may be helpful to 

the jury. The jury wouldn't have expertise on their own 

necessarily. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, I am also a little puzzled 

about what he is going to be able to opine to. Are you going 

to stop him from saying it is indicative of an Islamist, or 

are you going to let him go on --

THE COURT: I don't know. I don't know what he is 

going to ask. And if you have some concerns we can discuss it 

or you can object. I am not sure where -- 

MR. JACKS: Judge, I will resolve that overnight and 

communicate to them and let them know.

THE COURT: And then if there is some objections, 

some areas, we can discuss that before we get there. 

MR. CLINE: All right. Because I think there is a 

significant difference between saying someone is an Islamist 

and going on to say an Islamist is bent on the destruction of 

Israel. That seems pretty far beyond his expertise.

THE COURT: Well, I am assuming that is where you 

were wanting to go where someone is an Islamist. And that is 

part of what he is relying on is this rhetoric, according to 

what Mr. Shafik just stated, the rhetoric referencing the 

destruction of Israel. 

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MR. CLINE: Yeah, but I guess the problem I have, 

Your Honor, he is an expert translator. He has certainly 

heard people use this language before. He certainly has never 

been presented to us, nor qualified, I believe, as an expert 

in what an Islamist thinks. I think he is pushing it to say 

he is qualified to say how Islamists talk, but I can see the 

argument there that he has heard a lot of people that have 

later been identified as Islamists talk. But then to let this 

man say "These people talk like Islamists, therefore, in my 

opinion, they are Islamists." And then go on to say, 

"Islamists are people who think in a certain way," and 

describe -- 

THE COURT: What he stated here earlier, that is 

what you would object to? 

MR. CLINE: Absolutely, yes. 

Now, let me add one thing. There are going to be 

statements in the record by the Defendants. I think those 

speaks for themselves. In other words, the Government will 

have those in the record. They can argue about those however 

they want to argue. What they don't need, and what I think 

would be improper, Your Honor, is to have this language 

expert, a linguist for the FBI, to get on the stand and say, 

"People who talk like this are Islamists. And by the way, 

Islamists are people who are bent on the destruction of 

Israel." That really seems to me to be going too far.

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MR. DRATEL: And Your Honor, I second that. He is 

not qualified in Islamist, Islam, any of that. It is not what 

his qualifications are for expertise, and there is no 

comparative analysis either in his analysis. He has this 

case. That is it. He has been listening it for ten years. 

There is no analysis how other Muslims speak all over the 

world. So in a micro and a macro, but the macro is obviously 

more important to what Mr. Cline is saying. 

MS. HOLLANDER: Can I ask him one question? 

THE COURT: Sure? 

Q. (BY MS. HOLLANDER) Have you ever been to Gaza?

A. No.

Q. You ever been to the West Bank?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. One time.

Q. And when was that?

A. In 1994.

Q. For how long?

A. A week.

Q. And that is the total experience in the occupied 

territories?

A. That is my total experience in person in the occupied 

territory, yes.

MS. HOLLANDER: Thank you. 

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THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Jacks, any response to what 

was being stated over here by Mr. Cline and Mr. Dratel in 

terms of how far you can go with your questioning? 

MR. JACKS: Your Honor, I have no response. As I 

said, I will communicate to them and to the Court the 

questions that I propose to ask and the answers that I seek to 

elicit, but I don't have anything to add.

THE COURT: Why don't you let us know say by 8:30 in 

the morning.

MR. JACKS: I will do it before then, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And then we can plan on being here no 

later than 8:45 in the morning, counsel, and then we will 

resolve that issue. 

MR. CLINE: Your Honor, could we approach for one 

second on a personal scheduling matter?

(Discussion at the bench, out of the hearing of the 

reporter.)

THE COURT: We are in recess.

(End of Day.)

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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A 

CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM THE RECORD OF 

PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER. 

I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT THE TRANSCRIPT FEES 

FORMAT COMPLY WITH THOSE PRESCRIBED BY THE 

COURT AND THE JUDICIAL CONFERENCE OF THE 

UNITED STATES.

S/Shawn McRoberts 06/04/2009

__________________________DATE____________

SHAWN McROBERTS, RMR, CRR

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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