### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY + + + + +

PUBLIC HEARING ON EPA'S PROPOSED RULE

REGARDING REVISION TO THE SECONDARY

NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS

FOR OXIDES OF NITROGEN AND OXIDES OF SULFUR + + + + + THURSDAY AUGUST 25, 2011

+ + + + +

ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA

+ + + + + The Public Hearing convened at the

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, in Room S-1204-06 of the EPA One Potomac Yard South Building, 2777 South Crystal Drive, at 10:00

a.m., Randy Waite, Chair, presiding.

EPA STAFF PRESENT: RANDY WAITE, Chair and Designated Federal Official

GINGER TENNANT, Hearing Officer

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2 COMMENTERS PRESENT: HOWARD J. FELDMAN, American Petroleum Institute

PATRICIA BREWER, National Park Service

GIEDRIUS AMBROZAITIS, Alliance of

Automobile Manufacturers

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3 1 10:01 a.m. 2 CHAIR WAITE: Good morning and 3 thank you for attending this public hearing on 4 the Environmental Protection Agency's Proposed 5 Revisions to the Secondary Standards for 6 Oxides of Nitrogen and Oxides of Sulfur. 7 My name is Randy Waite, and I am a 8 Senior Staff Member of the Health and 9 Environmental Impacts Division of the Office 10 of Air Quality Planning and Standards which is 11 part of EPA's Office of Air and Radiation. I 12 will be chairing today's hearing. 13 We are here today to listen to 14 your comments on EPA's proposed revisions to 15 the Secondary National Ambient Air Quality 16 Standards, or NAAQS, for Oxides of Nitrogen 17 and Oxides of Sulfur, or NOx and SOx in

18 shorthand. 19 As a reminder, this is a hearing, 20 an opportunity for the public to comment on 21 EPA's proposed rule. The panel members may 22 answer questions that seek to clarify what we

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4 1 have proposed, but the purpose of this hearing 2 is to listen to your comments, not to discuss 3 or debate the proposals. 4 Before we begin the comment 5 period, I want to thank each of you for 6 coming, especially those of you who have 7 traveled to be here. Your input is an 8 important part of this process. 9 I will begin by briefly describing 10 the proposed rule that is the subject of 11 today's hearing. The proposed rule was 12 published in the Federal Register on August 1,

13 2011. 14 NOx and SOx can react with other 15 chemicals in the air to form various acidic 16 and nonacidic compounds. When these compounds 17 fall to the ground or enter lakes and streams, 18 they can cause a number of harmful effects on 19 soils, water quality, fish and wildlife. 20 EPA's review of the science shows that the 21 current secondary standards for NOx and SOx do 22 not protect against these effects, and more

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5 1 protective standards are necessary. 2 After careful consideration of the 3 scientific evidence, advice from EPA's Clean 4 Air Scientific Advisory Committee, or CASAC, 5 and public comments, the Administrator has 6 proposed to adopt new secondary standards for 7 both pollutants. The new standards would be 8 set at the same level as the public health 9 standards finalized last year: 100 parts per 10 billion for NO2 and 75 parts per billion for 11 SO2, both measured over one hour. 12 NOx and SOx in the ambient air can 13 also damage plants and trees, decreasing their 14 ability to produce food and limiting their 15 growth. EPA's review of the science shows 16 that the existing secondary standards which 17 are .053 parts per million measured on an 18 annual basis for NO2 and .5 parts per million 19 measured over three hours for SO2 protect 20 against these types of effects. And therefore 21 EPA is proposing to retain these standards. 22 EPA has made significant progress

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6 1 in developing a multi-pollutant standard that 2 would address the indirect effects NOx and SOx 3 have on sensitive ecosystems. While there is 4 strong scientific support for developing this 5 type of standard, EPA does not yet have enough 6 information to set a standard that adequately 7 protects the diverse ecosystems across the 8 country. EPA is planning a field pilot 9 program to collect and analyze additional data 10 and information that would help inform the 11 next five-year review of the standards for NOx

12 and SOx. 13 Additional information on the 14 proposed rule can be found in the fact sheet 15 available in the registration area. 16 Publication of the rule on August 1, 2011 17 marked the beginning of the 60-day public 18 comment period which closes on September 30, 19 2011. The fact sheet also contains detailed 20 information for submitting written comments. 21 EPA will issue a final rule by March 20, 2012.

22 Now let met turn to the comment

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7 1 portion of today's hearing. We will preparing 2 a written transcript of this hearing. The 3 transcript will be available as part of the 4 official record for the rule. 5 Today's hearing will work as 6 follows. I will call the scheduled speakers 7 to the microphone in pairs. When you're up 8 there and it's your turn, please state your 9 name and your affiliation. It will help our 10 transcriber if you also spell your name. 11 In order to be fair to everyone, 12 we are asking that you limit your testimony to 13 five minutes each. After you finish your 14 testimony, a panel member may ask clarifying 15 questions. 16 As I mentioned, we are 17 transcribing today's hearing, and each 18 speaker's oral testimony will become part of 19 the official record. Please be sure to give 20 a copy of any written comments to our staff at 21 the registration table. We will put the full 22 text of your written comments into the docket

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8 1 for you. 2 We have a timekeeping system 3 consisting of green, yellow and red lights. 4 When you begin speaking, the green light will 5 come on. You will have five minutes to speak. 6 The yellow light will signal that you will 7 have two minutes left to speak. We will ask 8 you to stop speaking when the red light comes

9 on. 10 We will try to ensure everyone has 11 an opportunity to comment. If you'd like to 12 testify but have not registered to do so, 13 please sign up at the registration table. And 14 we will take breaks periodically during the 15 day. 16 For those who have already 17 registered to speak, we have tried to 18 accommodate your request for specific time 19 slots. We ask for your patience as we proceed 20 through the list which is actually relatively 21 short today. We may need to make some minor 22 adjustments as the day progresses.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9 1 And now I'd like to introduce the 2 other EPA representative on our panel. This 3 is Ginger Tennant, who is also with the Office 4 of Air Quality Planning and Standards. 5 I would like to thank each of you 6 again for participating today. And so let's 7 get started in the dark. 8 First up, we have Howard Feldman 9 and then Patricia Brewer. 10 Can you see alright over there? 11 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. If you could 12 put the lights on, I don't think it would be 13 bad. I don't think we'll throw the day's 14 schedule if we wait a minute. 15 CHAIR WAITE: They ran to get the 16 people in charge of technical support. 17 I apologize for our technical 18 difficulties. 19 Okay. Now that we have light, Mr. 20 Feldman, please continue. 21 MR. FELDMAN: Okay. Thank you. 22 Good morning. I'm Howard J.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10 1 Feldman, Director of Regulatory and Scientific 2 Affairs at the American Petroleum Institute. 3 API is the primary trade association for 4 America's oil and natural gas industry 5 representing more than 475 oil and natural gas 6 companies, leaders of the technology-driven 7 industry that supplies much of America's 8 energy, supports more than 9.2 million U.S. 9 jobs and 7.5 percent of the U.S. economy. 10 Since 1990, the oil and gas 11 industry has invested more than $175 billion 12 towards improving the environmental 13 performance of its products, facilities, 14 operations, and many of the investments in 15 cleaner fuels will continue to improve air 16 quality in the years ahead. 17 In the recent proposal on the 18 secondary standards for oxides of nitrogen and 19 sulfur, EPA's Administrator set an important 20 precedent when she rejected the staff 21 recommendation to establish these secondary 22 air quality standards. The staff alleged that

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11 1 these pollutants were causing aquatic 2 acidification without being able to show a 3 direct or consistent connection. 4 EPA's Clean Air Science Advisory 5 Committee found that "a revised NAAQS is 6 warranted." However, the evidence was not 7 strong in the Administrator's view, and she 8 made the policy decision not to propose 9 establishing the standards. While we do not 10 agree with her substitute proposal for a pilot 11 program, her policy decision to reject the 12 staff's recommendation to impose a combined 13 secondary standard for these pollutants was

14 sound. 15 The entire approach considered for 16 this SOx/NOx secondary standard was fraught 17 with technical and statutory authority 18 problems. For example, while the Clean Air 19 Act NAAQS provide for the potential of 20 establishing the secondary NAAQS when 21 necessary to protect public welfare and 22 adverse ecosystem impacts, Congress in the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12 1 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments specifically 2 addressed this issue with the Title IV Acid 3 Rain Program. In reviewing the legislative 4 history, it appears that the EPA staff5 recommendation to establish an acidification6 based secondary NAAQS is not consistent with 7 the intent of Congress. 8 The Clean Air NAAQS are to be 9 nationwide, appropriately protective of 10 ambient concentrations for each of their 11 criteria air pollutants. EPA staff 12 recommendations were inconsistent with this 13 pattern and veered off course with the 14 development of a novel metric, the Atmospheric 15 Acidification Potential Index. This 16 unprecedented approach leads to nationally 17 variable acceptable concentrations of NOx and 18 SOx. This is nothing like any previously 19 adopted NAAQS and is arguably not allowable 20 under the Clean Air Act. 21 We'll provide more detail in our 22 written comments.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13 1 Even without this standard, 2 progress in air quality and aquatic deposition 3 will continue due to other standards and 4 requirements and this secondary standard is 5 unnecessary. Furthermore, on Tuesday the 6 White House reiterated the need to streamline 7 regulations and consider both the costs and 8 benefits of regulations. Clearly this 9 secondary standards is not needed now. 10 For the sake of the economy and 11 jobs, the Administrator should exercise the 12 same sound policy judgment on the ozone 13 standard now under review at the White House. 14 This review is strictly discretionary, not 15 required by statute or a court, and the harm 16 it could cause to the economy and jobs is 17 quite serious. And we're concerned. Some 18 businesses under the ozone standard might have 19 to reduce the size of their operations. Some 20 could need to look for new places to locate to 21 avoid the higher costs. Some might even leave 22 the country. The result would be a slow-

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14 1 motion process of job losses and dislocation 2 in communities across America. 3 EPA has said that that ozone rule 4 could cost $90 billion but we know that number 5 is way low. A Manufacturers' Alliance study 6 estimates that as many as 7.3 million jobs 7 could be lost by 2020 and costs of $1 trillion 8 per year imposed on the economy. 9 Those standards would heavily 10 impact energy, both energy producers and 11 energy consumers. For example, here in the 12 U.S., it may be impossible in many places to 13 expand a refinery or drill for more oil and 14 gas unless it can be done without increases in 15 emissions. This could lead to greater imports 16 from foreign suppliers unaffected by the U.S. 17 emission control requirements. 18 With 25 million Americans 19 unemployed or underemployed today, it's hard 20 to understand why the Administration is 21 considering a standard so potentially harmful 22 to the nation's future prospects, a standard

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15 1 that makes a mockery of the Administration's 2 program to eliminate or modify rules that are 3 unnecessary, costly or burdensome just 4 emphasized earlier this week. 5 As I've already stated, no court 6 or statute is compelling EPA action on the 7 ozone standard. EPA has the option to simply 8 move forward with the normal five-year review 9 that is already underway. Meanwhile, existing 10 emissions controls would continue to produce 11 cleaner air. 12 For the sake of American workers 13 and for the American economy, we again urge 14 the Administration and EPA to take a step

15 back. It's not too late. 16 Thank you. 17 CHAIR WAITE: Thank you, Mr.

18 Feldman. 19 One question I have, you were 20 commenting that you support the 21 Administrator's decision not to set the index 22 standard or the multi-pollutant standard. Do

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16 1 you then support the secondary standard that 2 she's proposing? 3 MR. FELDMAN: The secondary 4 standard is the same as the primary standard. 5 CHAIR WAITE: Right. So you do 6 support that part of it?

7 MR. FELDMAN: Yes. 8 CHAIR WAITE: Okay. Thank you. 9 Thank you very much. 10 MR. FELDMAN: Thank you. 11 CHAIR WAITE: Next up, Ms. Brewer. 12 MS. BREWER: Hi. I'm Patricia 13 Brewer and I'm representing the National Park 14 Service. 15 And the National Park Service 16 would like to commend EPA for the innovative 17 approach to define an ecologically relevant 18 secondary standard for oxides of nitrogen and 19 sulfur. The aquatic acidification index 20 eloquently links the atmospheric 21 concentrations of these pollutants with 22 deposition and with ecological impacts. And

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17 1 we agree with the Clean Air Science Advisory 2 Committee that the scientific basis for this 3 aquatic acidification index is both sound and 4 well supported. 5 And as an aside, I would say that 6 I'm probably going to contradict much of which 7 my predecessor said. But I think we would 8 both expect that. 9 The Park Service disagrees with 10 EPA's decision to not set a separate secondary 11 standard for NOx and SOx at this time. As you 12 stated, Randy, EPA has clearly demonstrated 13 that the current secondary standards are 14 inadequate to protect sensitive ecosystems. 15 EPA has also clearly demonstrated the 16 resources are being adversely impacted at 17 current levels of deposition and that 18 additional reductions are needed. 19 Shenandoah and Great Smoky 20 Mountains National Parks encompass some of the 21 most acid-sensitive ecosystems in our country. 22 And we believe that the risks of not acting

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18 1 now far outweigh the risks of proceeding while 2 some uncertainties remain. 3 We disagree with EPA's assertion 4 that the uncertainties prevent EPA from 5 setting a level of the aquatic acidification 6 index. For example, EPA cited a lack of 7 monitoring data in the West as one of the 8 uncertainties. And yet, EPA has set primary 9 standards for ozone PM, NO2 and SO2 despite a 10 lack of monitoring data in the West to 11 describe the spatial variability for these 12 pollutants. 13 EPA cites a need for additional 14 atmospheric and water quality monitoring and 15 proposed a pilot program to address these data 16 gaps. Yet the funding for this pilot program 17 has not been identified. And the Park Service 18 wants to encourage EPA to demonstrate their 19 commitment to follow through by clearly 20 identifying the needed funding for this

21 effort. 22 The pilot program has proposed to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19 1 focus on monitoring for the characterization 2 of gaseous SO2 particle sulfate and SO4 and 3 NOy. The Park Service agrees with the need to 4 evaluate these methods and would like to 5 participate with EPA in this effort. 6 We also want to encourage EPA to 7 include the water quality monitoring in this 8 pilot program. I didn't see that stated in 9 the design. We encourage EPA to establish the 10 regulatory requirements for such monitoring 11 because in the past without a secondary 12 standard, the imperative to do the monitoring

13 we knew was needed has not come about. 14 The implementation challenges for 15 a secondary standard are very real. But it is16 not appropriate to delay setting deposition17 based standards until all of these challenges 18 have been resolved. Because EPA can provide 19 states greater flexibility in attaining the 20 secondary standard, we believe that EPA can 21 set new deposition-based standards without 22 imposing undue burden on the states and the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20 1 regulatory community. This would allow the 2 states to begin planning now for attainment in 3 the context of other ongoing regulatory

4 efforts. 5 The one-hour primary standards for 6 NO2 and SO2 as proposed by EPA as an 7 alternative are not ecologically relevant to 8 protect sensitive ecosystems. And in fact, 9 EPA did not provide evidence that the 10 reductions necessary to attain a one-hour 11 standard would provide the reductions to 12 deposition at sensitive receptors. It would 13 be preferable to set deposition-based 14 standards now and then refine them as better 15 information becomes available rather than 16 adopting as a secondary standard levels that 17 are not reflective of ecosystems. 18 And the Park Service will be 19 submitting written comments before the end of 20 the period. 21 Thank you. 22 CHAIR WAITE: Thank you very much.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21 1 Do you have any questions? 2 MS. TENNANT: I don't have any. 3 CHAIR WAITE: No questions for 4 clarification. Thank you. 5 Thank you, both. 6 At this point, I do not have 7 anyone else listed as wishing to provide 8 public comment. We do have another commenter 9 scheduled for later in the day once his plane 10 gets in. That's at 11:45.

11 Are there others here that would 12 like to provide public comment? 13 (No audible response.) 14 CHAIR WAITE: Then at this point, 15 I will recess the hearing until such time as 16 we have someone that would like to provide 17 public comment. 18 Thank you. 19 (Whereupon, at 10:21 a.m., off the 20 record until 11:22 a.m.) 21 CHAIR WAITE: At this point, we'll 22 re-open the hearing.

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22 1 Whenever you're ready. 2 MR. AMBROZAITIS: Okay. Thank you 3 very much. 4 My name is Giedrius Ambrozaitis. 5 And I'm here today representing the Alliance 6 of Automobile Manufacturers. The Alliance is 7 an association of 12 vehicle manufacturers 8 including BMW Group, Chrysler Group LLC, Ford 9 Motor Company, General Motors Company, Jaguar 10 Land Rover, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz USA, 11 Mitsubishi Motors, Porsche, Toyota, Volkswagen 12 Group of American and Volvo Cars of North 13 America. 14 The Alliance members recognize the 15 importance of ensuring clean air and setting 16 air quality standards at a level that protects 17 public health. Our air is cleaner today than 18 it was a generation ago, and air quality is 19 continuing to improve. Our nation's air is 20 getting cleaner even as our economy grows and 21 vehicles travel more and more miles. 22 According to EPA's most recent air trends

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23 1 analysis, since 1990 nationwide air quality 2 has improved significantly for the six common 3 air pollutants. Nationally over this time 4 period, ozone has decreased 14 percent, fine 5 particulate matter has decreased 19 percent, 6 nitrogen dioxide has decreased 35 percent, 7 sulfur dioxide has decreased by 59 percent and 8 carbon monoxide has decreased by 68 percent. 9 Investments and improvements in 10 vehicle technology and manufacturing processes 11 are a major part of this success story.12 Today's vehicles have 99 percent fewer smog13 forming emissions than vehicles of the 1970s. 14 Further, significant additional emission 15 reductions will occur over the next 20 years 16 as a result of already promulgated regulations 17 for mobile sources. According to EPA's own 18 statistics, emissions from cars and trucks are 19 expected to be reduced by an additional 70 20 percent by 2030. These reductions will help 21 to reduce criteria pollutant concentrations 22 across the country, and the improvements to

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24 1 air quality as a result of these reductions 2 will continue to occur. 3 The Alliance supports EPA's 4 proposal to retain the existing secondary 5 standards for NOx and SOx, specifically the 6 current NO2 standard of 0.053 parts per 7 million average over a year and the SO2 8 standard of 0.5 parts per million averaged 9 over three hours, not to be exceeded more than 10 once per year. 11 We agree with EPA's conclusion 12 that the current secondary standards are 13 adequate to protect against direct phytotoxic 14 effects on vegetation and agree that they 15 should be retained to protect watershed 16 ecosystems against adverse effects of acidic 17 deposition. However, EPA recommends that such 18 a standard employ total reactive oxidized 19 nitrogen and SO2 as the atmospheric ambient 20 air indicators to a form that takes into 21 account variable factors such as atmospheric 22 and ecosystem conditions that modify the

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25 1 amounts of deposited nitrogen and sulfur, the 2 distinction between oxidized and reduced forms 3 of nitrogen, effects of deposited nitrogen and 4 sulfur on aquatic ecosystems in terms of the 5 ecological indicator ANC.

6 EPA further concludes that the 7 existing annual NO2 and three-hour SO2 8 secondary standards are not ecologically 9 relevant and thus are not appropriate to 10 provide protection of ecosystems. Despite 11 this conclusion, EPA has proposed to adopt the 12 recently established one-hour primary NO2 and 13 SO2 standards as secondary standards as well. 14 EPA acknowledges that this form is 15 inappropriate but rationalizes that the 16 Administrator recognizes that the new NO2 and 17 SO2 primary one-hour standard set in 2010, 18 while not ecologically relevant for a 19 secondary standard will nonetheless result in 20 reductions in oxides of nitrogen and sulfur 21 that will directionally benefit the 22 environment by reducing NOy and SOx deposition

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26 1 to sensitive ecosystems. 2 The adoption of such standards is 3 unnecessary to drive further emission 4 reductions of SO2 and NO2. This is because 5 many other regulations are being proposed or 6 are already in place that have reduced these 7 emissions and will continue to do so. These 8 regulations include but are not limited to the 9 Tier 2 vehicle regulations which will continue 10 to reduce NOx emissions as new vehicles 11 replace older ones and 2) the recent diesel 12 tailpipe and fuel sulfur regulations, and 3) 13 the recent off-road vehicle emissions rule, 4) 14 the state implementation plans developed to 15 meet the PM and ozone NAAQS and Regional Haze 16 Rule, and 5) the NOx and SOx reductions 17 mandated by the Cross-State Air Pollution

18 Rule. 19 Regarding the Aquatic 20 Acidification Index, we agree with EPA that it 21 is premature to adopt an aquatic acidification 22 index-based standard -- AAI. EPA defines AAI

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27 1 in terms of a watershed acid neutralizing 2 capacity using a equation with F1, F2, F3 and

3 F4 terms. 4 Regarding the equation -- 5 CHAIR WAITE: You may finish up. 6 MR. AMBROZAITIS: Oh, okay. 7 CHAIR WAITE: You may finish what 8 you have here. 9 MR. AMBROZAITIS: Okay. Thank 10 you. 11 F1 represents the pristine state 12 ANC of the watershed before an industrialized 13 society existed. As stated in the NPRM, a 14 secondary standard as defined in Section 15 109(b)(2) must specify a level of air quality, 16 the attainment and maintenance of which in the 17 judgment of the Administrator based on such 18 criteria is requisite to protect the public 19 welfare from any known or anticipated adverse 20 effects associated with the presence of the 21 pollutant in the ambient air. It is 22 unrealistic to assume that such a pristine

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28 1 state is requisite to protect public welfare. 2 Furthermore, we agree with EPA 3 that relatively large uncertainties are 4 introduced by a lack of data with regard to 5 pre-industrial environmental conditions and 6 other parameters that are necessary inputs to 7 critical load models that are the basis for 8 the factor F1 in the AAI equation. 9 Consequently, we do not think there's an 10 adequate scientific basis for the 11 establishment of realistic F1 values, nor do 12 we think that a pristine state is requisite to 13 protect the welfare. 14 F2 is the contribution in the 15 equation. This is a contribution of ammonia 16 and ammonium compounds to the net 17 acidification of the watershed. Since these 18 substances are not routinely measured, EPA 19 intends to rely on estimated concentrations 20 using a complex atmospheric model that has had 21 an inadequate performance evaluation. 22 In the NPRM, EPA states

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29 1 observational data are not generally available 2 to evaluate the modeled relationships between 3 nitrogen and sulfur in the ambient air and 4 associated deposition which are the basis for 5 the other factors -- F2, F3 and F4 in the AAI 6 equation. It would inappropriate to base a 7 NAAQS on a variable that does not have 8 reliable data.

9 F3 and F4 are the transference 10 rations that convert the measured ambient 11 concentrations of NOy and SOx into annual 12 deposition rates. These two suffer from the 13 fact that there are insufficient data to 14 conduct an adequate model performance 15 evaluation on the estimates of these important 16 functions. In addition, as we have documented 17 in our previous comments, most of the 18 deposition over most of the U.S. occurs from 19 wet deposition which is a function of the NOy 20 and SOx concentrations at cloud level and not 21 at ground level where these species will be 22 measured. The absence of reliable data should

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30 1 preclude using this approach to determine 2 attaintment or nonattainment of a NAAQS. 3 The Alliance appreciates this 4 opportunity to testify. We will also be 5 submitting written comments on the proposal. 6 And I would be happy to answer any questions. 7 Thank you. 8 CHAIR WAITE: Thank you very much. 9 Ginger, any clarifying questions? 10 MS. TENNANT: No, I don't have any 11 questions. 12 CHAIR WAITE: I appreciate your 13 traveling here to present these comments. And 14 we'll certainly take them under consideration. 15 MR. AMBROZAITIS: Okay. Thank you 16 very much. 17 CHAIR WAITE: Thank you. 18 At this point, I'll ask once again 19 if we have anyone else that wishes to present 20 public comments. 21 (No audible response.) 22 CHAIR WAITE: And if not, I will

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31 1 go ahead and temporarily close the hearing 2 until such time as we have further commenters. 3 Thank you. 4 (Whereupon, at 11:32 a.m., off the 5 record until 1:01 p.m.) 6 CHAIR WAITE: It is now 1:00 7 o'clock. And as scheduled in the Federal 8 Register, we will be taking a lunch break from

9 1:00 to 2:30. 10 (Whereupon, at 1:02 p.m., off the 11 record until 6:59 p.m.) 12 CHAIR WAITE: It is now 7:00 13 o'clock. And given that there are no further 14 commenters, we are closing the public hearing. 15 (Whereupon, at 6:59 p.m., the 16 hearing was adjourned.)

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23:1 2 2 26:9,11 2:30 31:9 20 6:21 23:15 2010 25:17 2011 1:11 4:13 6:16

6:19 2012 6:21 2020 14:7 2030 23:20 25 1:11 14:18 2777 1:19 3 3 26:12 30 6:18 35 23:6 4 4 26:13 475 10:5 5 5 5:18 26:16 59 23:7 6 6:59 31:11,15 60-day 6:17 68 23:8 7 7.3 14:6 7.5 10:9 7:00 31:12 70 23:19 75 5:10 9 9.2 10:8 99 23:12NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 38

Public Hearing

EPA

08-25-11

Arlington, VA