Page 1

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 + + + + +

 REGIONAL STANDARDS ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP

 + + + + +

 MEETING

 + + + +

 THURSDAY

 AUGUST 14, 2014

 The Working Group convened in Room

6097/8/9, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, SW, Washington,

D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Neil Eisner, facilitator,

presiding.

PRESENT

NEIL EISNER, Facilitator

TIM BALLO, Earthjustice

GARY CLARK, Goodman Manufacturing Company

JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand

RAY ELLIS, Lincoln Electric Cooperative

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned 

 Utilities

JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation

SCOTT HARRIS, Harris, Wiltshire & Grannis LLP 

GLENN HOURAHAN, Air Conditioning Contractors 

 of America 

DAVID HUNGERFORD, California Energy Commission 

 (via telephone)

MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc.

KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company

ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense 

 Council

STEVE PORTER, Johnstone Supply

DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy General 

 Counsel

BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls
Page 2

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an 

 Energy-Efficient Economy

AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

Refrigeration Institute

CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling

Contractors National Association 

DAVE WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises, LLC

ALSO PRESENT

KARIM AMRANE, AHRI

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy

LAURA BARHYDT, U.S. Department of Energy

DAVID CALABRESE, Daikin Corporation

DAN COHEN, U.S. Department of Energy

KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric 

 Cooperative Association

JOHANNA HARIHARAN, U.S. Department of Energy

JOHN HURST, Lennox International, Inc.

CHARLES MCCRUDDEN, ACCA

JONATHAN MELCHI, HARDI

ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company

ERIC STAS, U.S. Department of Energy

DON SURRENA, National Association of Home 

 Builders
Page 3

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

Introductory Presentation. . . . . . . . . . . 4

 Doug Rawald

What is needed from the Department . . . . . 113

Presentation by Chuck White. . . . . . . . . 193

General Discussion . . . . . . . . . . . . . 301
Page 4

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

2 (9:00 a.m.)

3 MR. EISNER: If everybody can go

4 to your seat, we can get started. The first

5 thing I want to ask everybody for, you didn't

6 have to go through the usual thing where you

7 gave them a business card. If you could all

8 pass up a business card, so I'll have an

9 attendance list of who's here today.

10 MALE PARTICIPANT: You have to

11 speak louder, so everyone can hear you.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. I want

13 everybody to pass up a business card, so they

14 can use it for attendance today and know who's

15 here. Usually they collect them when they get

16 you before you go through security.

17 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, Neil, for

18 those of us who don't have a business card,

19 there's a form that can be filled out.

20 MR. EISNER: I'll pass around a

21 sheet of paper. If you don't have one, just

22 sign in there. The sheet's coming around. 
Page 5

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Just sign your name. Thank you. All right. 

2 We now can hand it off to our instructor for

3 this morning, to go through a slide show

4 presentation. There'll be little forms for

5 you to fill out about the quality of this

6 presentation, so we can rate him later on and

7 see if there's room for improvement.

8 MEMBER SACHS: Why do we have to

9 wait? We can fill them out now.

10 MR. EISNER: That's a good point.

11 MR. RAWALD: So, you're referring

12 to me, as I volunteered yesterday. I did

13 forget to bring my cards yesterday. So, I do

14 have those and I'll pass them around, so folks

15 have information to get in touch with me. If

16 you would pass that down and around.

17 I also have a copy of the slide

18 deck for folks, so you can refer to it and

19 take notes on it. And you'll notice when we

20 came in that we gave you a number of handouts. 

21 So, this is all material that you can refer to

22 that we'll talk about here during the session
Page 6

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 and that will be useful for you, if you think

2 about things as we go forward.

3 So, can you guys hear me back

4 there in the back? No problems. Okay. So,

5 I mentioned earlier I can't come on Tuesdays,

6 because Tuesdays I actually go to New York to

7 teach a class there every evening and, then,

8 come back to work on Wednesday. So, that's

9 why. So, I do like to teach.

10 So, indulge me here, if I get a

11 little bit interested in what we're doing. 

12 But, we're going to start off by talking about

13 what are the central air conditioner regional

14 standards, just remind ourselves of what we're

15 talking about here.

16 So, if we can go to the next

17 slide, please. So that everyone can

18 understand, the guiding document of all energy

19 efficiency appliance standards is the Energy

20 Policy and Conservation Act of 1975. That's

21 what created the ability for us to even exist

22 in this kind of forum.
Page 7

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 That was amended in 2007 by the

2 Energy Independence and Security Act, which

3 entitled DOE to promulgate regional standards

4 for certain limited products. Of note to us,

5 we decided to come together and issue a direct

6 final rule under 42 U.S.C. 6295 during final

7 rule, which actually has the rules.

8 We were then sued by the American

9 Public Gas Association on the furnace-related

10 provisions. That lawsuit was settled, so now

11 we're only proceeding on the air conditioning

12 part of the regional standards.

13 So, let's go to the next slide. 

14 So, what are the air conditioner regional

15 standards? If you look at our regs, we have

16 two provisions that matter and they're both

17 buried at 430.32, which DOE kindly makes it as

18 difficulty to read as possible. But it's in

19 Section (c) of 403.32, Section (c)(3). It

20 describes what will be the standards for what

21 we call the Southeast Region.

22 And it's good to remind ourselves
Page 8

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of what those states are. There are a number

2 of them. And, basically, what it describes is

3 that, in the Southeast Region, those states

4 enumerated in the CFR, all equipment that is

5 a split-system air conditioner or products

6 that are sold or installed in that region must

7 be 14 SEER. So, that's the baseline there.

8 The next provision, next slide

9 please, in 430.32(c)(4), one slide back,

10 please, is regarding the Southwest Region. 

11 So, that's a little more broad. Well, the

12 Southwest Region has only four states,

13 California, Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona.

14 Those states are required to have

15 both a 14 SEER split system and, also, for

16 single-package systems, have an EER rating of

17 at least 11 and for split systems, have an EER

18 of 12.1, if they're less than 45,000 BTUs and

19 11.7, if they're over 45,000 BTUs or equal to

20 45,000 BTUs.

21 So, we've set the system,

22 essentially, where the split systems have to
Page 9

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 be 14 in the southeast and the southwest and,

2 in the southwest, both split systems and

3 single package need to have an EER value. 

4 That is also important.

5 So, let's everyone remember all

6 that stuff now. So, let's all remember it. 

7 Everyone here is part of making this all come

8 together.

9 So, next slide. Now, after we

10 came up with that regulation, we realized

11 there's probably some confusion in how it's

12 enacted. And, so, the first guidance document

13 you folks were given this morning relates to

14 our guidance describing when do these

15 standards take effect? What does it mean?

16 And, so, the question that seemed

17 to come up from the way the CFR language was 

18 and the way we put other standards in the past 

19 is, hey, does this come into effect when

20 things are manufactured or when installed? 

21 And, so, what we made clear is that, under the

22 language of EISA, we're required to have the
Page 10

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 standard be effective at the time of

2 installation.

3 So, DOE's view has been, and we

4 articulated before but put in this written

5 guidance in 2012, that the date that is

6 important for compliance with the standards

7 that go into effect on January 1, 2015, are

8 the date of installation of the date of

9 manufacture.

10 Next slide, please. After this,

11 FTC also issued their labeling rule. So, a

12 lot of you were probably involved in that rule

13 as well. And we've given you a copy of that

14 here, which is very important. So, that rule

15 lays out and gives sample energy guide labels. 

16 And, if we could, jump over the FTC Rule,

17 please.

18 MR. AMRANE: Can we ask questions?

19 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

20 MR. AMRANE: You said that the

21 date --

22 MR. RAWALD: I hear Karim. So, if
Page 11

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you would please, call your name out.

2 MR. AMRANE: Yes, Karim.

3 MR. RAWALD: Thank you.

4 MR. AMRANE: But my understanding

5 is that, for the national standards, it's the

6 manufacturing date. But for the regional

7 standards, it's the installation date.

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, Karim is

9 exactly correct. So, what the CFR points out

10 and what the statute also, in our

11 understanding, points out is that the

12 manufacturing date is important for the

13 national standards.

14 So, the national standard being 13

15 SEER or 14 SEER for other things that are not

16 part of regional standard. But for the

17 regional standard, it's the date of

18 installation. So, there is a difference

19 there. That is correct, Karim.

20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is

21 Gary from the California IOUs. Can I go one

22 step further and ask a question?
Page 12

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

2 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, following

3 that same line of reasoning, what is or has

4 traditionally been referred to as the

5 manufacturer, in this case, I believe is being

6 perceived as the vendor or installer because

7 they're the ones that are installing it and

8 they're the ones that know the application and

9 whether compliance is being achieved or not.

10 So, is it true that the entity

11 that has to be responsible for compliance is

12 the installer?

13 MR. RAWALD: So, that's a question

14 that I think we're going to talk about a lot

15 here. Who do we think is the appropriate

16 people to have dictate its compliance? There

17 are a lot of folks who don't agree with the

18 presumption that you would see the

19 manufacturer equal to the installer.

20 And we heard a lot of comments to

21 that and responses in 2011 NTA folks,

22 including AHRI and HARDI, explaining why they
Page 13

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 thought there was a problem with that

2 particular analogy. So, I think we discuss

3 that more at length. So, there is a provision

4 in EPCA that says that a manufacturer, who I'm

5 describing next, includes someone who

6 assembles.

7 And, so, there is now an argument

8 being made that an installer can be considered

9 an assembler and, therefore, could be

10 considered a manufacturer. But I don't think

11 that perception's widely held. I don't think

12 everyone agrees with that and, so, I don't

13 want to put that forward as the position of

14 the Department right at this moment.

15 But I do understand what you're

16 saying. I think there are people who have

17 that as a discussion point.

18 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. The

19 reason I asked that question, made that

20 statement is because, previously in DOE

21 meetings I've heard it suggested that that was

22 an approach that DOE was taking with regard to
Page 14

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 this. But it sounds like, no, that's not

2 decided and it's to be discussed.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, there is 

4 more discussion to be had. In the 2011 public

5 meeting, there was a rep of the DOE who did

6 say that we could view an installer as a

7 manufacturer, based on that, which engendered

8 all these comments back from folks in the

9 industry. So, it's definitely an item for

10 discussion but I don't want to forestall a

11 discussion. I want people to talk about that

12 during the course of this rule making. 

13 Charlie?

14 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Thank you.

15 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie

16 McCrudden with the ACCA. I think also part of

17 the confusion may be the walk-in

18 cooler/freezer rule, which treats the

19 assembler differently than say the

20 manufacturer, in other product categories.

21 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, that's

22 exactly correct. And we had that discussion,
Page 15

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you and I, during the walk-in cooler and

2 freezer amended standards meeting we recently

3 had. So, there is some language in the CFR

4 dictating that the installer of a walk-in

5 cooler and freezer can be considered a

6 manufacturer because of that fact that they

7 are assembling.

8 So, there's also some commercial

9 package boiler language that similarly says

10 that those folks that assemble those things

11 are denying they can be considered

12 manufacturers.

13 So, there is some language out

14 there on other products that we can look to to

15 kind of give us an idea of where we can go

16 here. But what I'll tell you is the table is

17 open and let's keep the discussion going. I

18 don't want to quell any thoughts here.

19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. So, this

20 is Gary again. One more question. Is DOE

21 constrained by the legislative language in

22 this regard or no or is the answer to that
Page 16

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 question unclear?

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the

3 purpose of this negotiation, DOE views its

4 authority to be as broad as necessary to

5 create an effective enforcement plan for the

6 requirements of 6295(o). So, that's what I

7 will tell you at this point.

8 But we want to hear from folks

9 what's practical, what's going to work and

10 what's going to make sense. And, so, that's

11 the approach we're taking here is what's going

12 to work the best to make an effective

13 enforcement plan, which is the overriding

14 mandate of 6295(o).

15 So, you folks have all got a copy

16 of that, hopefully, of the relevant language

17 of 6295(o)(6), which is the statute. So,

18 hopefully, that can be something that we refer

19 to as we talk about it here. I think that was

20 one of the documents that Brenda could have

21 handed you.

22 So, turning back to the Federal
Page 17

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Trade Commission, if we go towards Page 20,

2 let's start there. And what I want folks to

3 see is kind of where the energy guide label is

4 or what FTC has recommended. So, as you can

5 see here, this is what the FTC has

6 promulgated. So, I think pull it out, so we

7 can see what this is for. Let's go one back,

8 one before this.

9 Okay. This would be the label for

10 a single-package air conditioner that is

11 manufactured after January 1, 2015. And

12 what's important is, FTC's rule is based upon

13 manufacturing, so they have a different label

14 for manufacture date. So, that's something to

15 keep in mind with what we're doing here.

16 So, their label has a picture of

17 the country. It lays out where it can be

18 installed. If you look at the efficiency

19 rating, it tells you what the SEER value is

20 and it also tells you, at the bottom here in

21 small print, what the unit's EER is.

22 That's very important because it's
Page 18

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a single package. So, the applicable standard

2 for the region would be the EER and, so, for

3 here, the EER is 10.9, which is below 11. So,

4 it couldn't be in these four states. So, does

5 everyone see that? Is that large enough for

6 folks to understand? Okay. If we can go back

7 one more for this.

8 Okay. That's earlier. We had

9 that. Let's go to Page 21. Okay. Now, this

10 is a label that folks should be familiar with. 

11 This is the SEER label for a split system

12 that's manufactured currently before the

13 regional standards had come into effect. It

14 just tells you what the SEER value is and also

15 says, of course, the efficiency range based on

16 split-system units.

17 So, what we understand is this is

18 the most common coil. So, it could be

19 different from that. That's that advisory

20 portion of this label. Next slide, please. 

21 I'm sorry, not next slide, next page of the

22 PDF. Sorry about that, Jeremiah, that's my
Page 19

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 fault.

2 Here is a little more complicated

3 split-system label after regional standards. 

4 So, what it presents here is actually a SEER

5 value that's a range. And does everyone

6 understand why there would be a range? 

7 Depends on what the indoor coil would be,

8 correct? So, this depends upon the coil the

9 contractor installs with the unit.

10 So, this is telling you the SEER

11 value could be from 13 to 14.2. So, what this

12 label then tells folks shows the country and

13 says, hey, here's the requirement, if you're

14 in these areas, do you have at least a 14

15 SEER? So, you need to make sure that you get

16 to this 14 level with the coil that you use. 

17 Yes, now, Karen?

18 MEMBER MEYERS: So, this is Karen

19 with Rheem. So, that brings up an interesting

20 question that's arisen at our company. It

21 says, specifically, that it depends upon the

22 coil.
Page 20

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

2 MEMBER MEYERS: It doesn't say it

3 depends upon the air mover.

4 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

5 MEMBER MEYERS: It says it depends

6 upon the coil only.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right.

8 MEMBER MEYERS: So, I think

9 that's, you know, a point of clarification

10 that will need to be made. Does it just

11 depend upon the coil?

12 MR. RAWALD: Right. This goes

13 back to I think Harvey's question yesterday

14 which is, you know, how do we include the air

15 mover, the blower in this situation? And

16 we'll talk more about that later on today. I

17 think it's very important what the Department

18 view is there and I'm still trying to get you

19 guys a more definitive answer on that to help

20 you with that. Yes, I think that's a very

21 valid point. Any other questions about what

22 this label shows?
Page 21

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: How does the consumer

2 determine, whether the coil, when added to

3 this particular piece of equipment, gets you

4 to 14?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. Folks, what

6 do you think?

7 MEMBER MEYERS: I couldn't hear

8 the question.

9 MR. RAWALD: So, Neil asked how

10 does the consumer know that, when they add the

11 coil to their condenser, they're going to get

12 a 14 SEER unit that's compliant with the

13 regulations?

14 MR. HURST: Either their

15 contractor is going to explain it to them or

16 they're --

17 MR. RAWALD: And that's John Hurst

18 from Lennox.

19 MR. HURST: Yes. I'm sorry. John

20 Hurst from Lennox. It's usually going to be

21 the contractor that would be responsible for

22 matching the appropriate coil with the
Page 22

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 condensing unit.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, there's

3 no labeling mechanism that's showing, hey,

4 these two things together will make this. 

5 Now, I think, if I asked Karim, he would say

6 that AHRI has a way of showing some things,

7 correct? Is that right?

8 MR. AMRANE: Yes. We have a

9 directory. Karim with AHRI. We have a

10 directory and its users can look it up and

11 print a certificate with exactly the rating of

12 the unit that's being installed.

13 MR. RAWALD: So, AHRI's

14 expectation would be that this information on

15 the condenser combined with once you know the

16 model number of your evaporator, you can look

17 on AHRI's website and then see what the SEER

18 value of that combination will be.

19 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

20 MR. RAWALD: Harvey?

21 MEMBER SACHS: Harvey Sachs,

22 ACEEE. There is one thing really important
Page 23

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 for those who haven't watched units being

2 installed. The evaporator is typically

3 shipped as a box with its plenum or surround

4 part of it. There's no label on the

5 evaporator that tells the customer, in any

6 kind of an obvious way, anything about that

7 galvanized box that's been deposited at his

8 door has something inside it that's a heat

9 exchanger. We don't even know that for sure

10 as consumers.

11 So, it's not a completely

12 transparent process and does rely upon the

13 contractor's claims and contract language to

14 assure the consumer that it has a compliant

15 evaporator.

16 MEMBER MEYERS: John with Lennox?

17 MR. HURST: John Hurst, with

18 Lennox. Agree with you a hundred percent,

19 Harvey. I think, also, even if we labeled up

20 the coil, the condensing unit, the vast

21 majority of consumers would never understand

22 what the matching up means.
Page 24

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER SACHS: Absolutely agree.

2 MR. HURST: There's just such a

3 lack of knowledge regarding this product from

4 a consumer standpoint that, you know, I think

5 we could put every safeguard in place and, you

6 know, do Garanimals or yellow triangles don't

7 match red squares. Consumers don't get this. 

8 And, so, my point is it's going to be

9 incumbent upon contractors, distributors,

10 manufacturers to do the right thing.

11 Consumers can go to a directory. 

12 They could go to a DOE directory. They won't. 

13 They just won't. They will have to trust

14 their contractor and the chain to do the right

15 thing.

16 MEMBER MEYERS: Karen, did you

17 have your hand up at one point? Okay. 

18 Charlie?

19 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is

20 Charlie with ACCA. I'd like to make a couple

21 points. One is we've all seen this label and

22 this label is designed for consumers to
Page 25

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 compare products and compare the energy use of

2 products. And we've all seen this at Best

3 Buy. But most people don't walk into a

4 showroom because contractors don't usually

5 have showrooms. And it's hard, I think, for

6 FTC to apply this label to the situation where

7 a contractor comes into a home and helps them

8 sort of purchase the product.

9 The second thing I'll say is part

10 of the Energy Guide rule or the rule on this

11 label was the contractor has to affirmatively

12 provide the homeowner with this label. So,

13 the homeowner, and this is something that is

14 on the contract that they have to give, this

15 label to the homeowner before the purchase was

16 made.

17 Now, one way to satisfy that is to

18 provide the manufacturer's materials. The

19 manufacturers have to put that label in their

20 materials. So, as far as the consumer goes,

21 they should be getting this information.

22 And I'll say, contrary to John's
Page 26

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 point, consumers are very savvy now and they

2 do go to the Internet and I wouldn't be

3 surprised if they are going to a directory now

4 because we hear that all the time.

5 MR. HURST: Really?

6 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. The

7 information is out there and they will go find

8 it. So --

9 MR. RAWALD: Gary, I see you

10 disagreeing down here?

11 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes. This is

12 Gary for the California IOUs. There's a range

13 of consumer behavior with respect to energy

14 efficiency. And, for sure, awareness is much

15 greater now than it was a decade ago. But our

16 perception is that consumers are going to be

17 relying on their contractor to get this right.

18 MR. RAWALD: So, the point I'm

19 making here is I want to make sure everyone's

20 familiar with the label. And this is

21 important just because it's causing discussion

22 already on how a label affects things. And
Page 27

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 this is the label we have. And, so, the point

2 that we got from Josh -- right, Josh?

3 MEMBER DORIA: No. Jordan.

4 MR. RAWALD: Jordan. Sorry.

5 MEMBER DORIA: Okay.

6 MR. RAWALD: -- yesterday was

7 that, hey, what can we do to change the label,

8 update the label? And, so, we obviously

9 cannot change the label ourselves. So, this

10 is the label we have for you to have.

11 So you have to embrace this as the

12 reality of the playing field we're in or we

13 have to think about, okay, we haven't enforced

14 a scheme we've come up with and we want to ask

15 the FTC if they can come along with us and

16 make some changes. But that will take some

17 time.

18 And, so, this is the label that

19 will be in effect in the near future and, so,

20 we need to keep that as our reality. Yes,

21 Gary?

22 MEMBER CLARK: Gary Clark from
Page 28

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Goodman Manufacturing. I think what would be

2 indisputable in this discussion is the fact

3 that most consumers do not see an energy guide

4 label before they buy a product.

5 MR. RAWALD: In this industry.

6 MEMBER CLARK: In this industry.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right.

8 MEMBER CLARK: I don't think

9 anybody would argue that. So, the amount of

10 energy you can put on how the energy guide

11 label is designed I think we need to keep it

12 in perspective --

13 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

14 MEMBER CLARK: -- as to, you know,

15 how many homeowners are actually going to see

16 it and whatnot. So, I wouldn't die on this

17 hill I guess is what I'm trying to say.

18 MR. RAWALD: I think it's helpful

19 to hear that. I think it's good to know what

20 folks think. Yes, Amy?

21 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Charlie, you

22 said that they're required to provide this
Page 29

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 label. If they don't do that, who enforces

2 that? Is that an FTC enforcement?

3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. That's all

4 FTC.

5 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.

6 MR. RAWALD: Was there a point

7 down here?

8 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes. It's Ray

9 Ellis from Lincoln Electric. We might be a

10 bit of an anomaly in this whole thing but we

11 actually have people on staff that also go out

12 and inspect units and make sure. And, in

13 fact, the homeowners come to us beforehand and

14 so that we supply them with the material and

15 the information they need to be able to make

16 those choices.

17 And we also work with the

18 contractors. We have a pretty aggressive

19 energy efficiency program in the northwest to

20 our wholesale power supply that we pay in our

21 wholesale rate that we use to subsidize or

22 give rebates to the homeowners.
Page 30

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 So, their incentive is to come to

2 us to ask which units need to be put in place,

3 so that they can receive that incentive. And

4 it sometimes is upwards of several thousand

5 dollars.

6 And, so, we try to do that and,

7 you know, we're small. And, you know, it's

8 not the same across the country for other

9 utilities but, certainly, we have a pretty

10 intimate relationship with our members because

11 they're not customers. They're members. They

12 own our electric co-op.

13 And, so, we are, you know, kind of

14 hand-in-hand in those whole process. So, we

15 try to incentivize our homeowners, you know,

16 obviously, and let them know what is eligible

17 for these rebates and they have to meet these

18 standards. You know?

19 MR. RAWALD: You mentioned the

20 word "inspection," so do you do that in order

21 to see if people are able to get these

22 rebates?
Page 31

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER ELLIS: We do.

2 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

3 MEMBER ELLIS: We go out. Either

4 we contract with an individual that's

5 qualified to inspect them after they've been

6 installed or we have somebody on staff that

7 does so.

8 MEMBER GIBBONS: This is John from

9 Carrier. In those situations, the inspector

10 or yourself, somebody has to match paperwork?

11 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes.

12 MEMBER GIBBONS: Don't they

13 usually look for the AHRI Certificate to make

14 sure it's a --

15 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes. Yes. Yes.

16 MEMBER CLARK: And it's not the

17 Energy Guide label that they're looking for,

18 up inside the unit. This is Gary Clark.

19 MEMBER NOLL: Elizabeth, NRDC. A

20 question that reminded me, the AHRI Directory,

21 is that available for everyone or only AHRI

22 members?
Page 32

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER CLARK: It's public.

2 MEMBER NOLL: It's public, too. 

3 Yes. All right.

4 MR. RAWALD: Now, as Karim is

5 saying, affirming that it is online and

6 publicly available. Dave, did you have

7 something?

8 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Well, it's

9 just but only AHRI member information is

10 published on AHRI.

11 MR. RAWALD: So, if you're not an

12 AHRI member --

13 MR. AMRANE: No, no.

14 MR. RAWALD: Everybody?

15 MR. AMRANE: Make a distinction. 

16 It's open to anybody who wants to certify the

17 part with AHRI, that's members and nonmembers

18 of AHRI.

19 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Correct. But

20 member data is only --

21 MR. AMRANE: It is only those who

22 participate in our certification program. 
Page 33

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 That's correct.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. You know,

3 Karim, it might be helpful for you to think

4 about whether you could send the groups some

5 of the information about the certification

6 program and show us the actual database. 

7 People can get familiar with it. Okay? That

8 would be helpful to put down on a list of

9 things to do.

10 MR. AMRANE: Are there other

11 questions on the FTC label? Yes, Glenn?

12 MEMBER HOURAHAN: I have a quick

13 question for Ray. It's a clarification. You

14 were talking about --

15 MR. RAWALD: And that's Glenn from

16 --

17 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Yes. Glenn

18 Hourahan from ACCA. You were talking about

19 your utility does verification checks. For

20 how many or what percentage of the total sales

21 to your stakeholders do you think you're

22 actually seeing? So, in other words, not all
Page 34

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of the homes that are replacing equipment are

2 going through you. They're going through

3 their own contractors outside of your system.

4 MEMBER ELLIS: Well, you'd have to

5 understand our geographical area and we're

6 pretty remote. Almost a hundred percent come

7 through us. And, in fact, we just purchased

8 a propane company and have extended that. 

9 We're adding an HVAC division to that, so that

10 we can expand the services to our members, so

11 that person that we're hiring, he also is

12 qualified to install and inspect.

13 And they pass a certification test

14 through Bonneville that allows them to make

15 those be certified to get that rebate money

16 back from Bonneville that we paid to them in

17 wholesale rates.

18 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is

19 Gary from California IOUs. In response to

20 that question, I think the contractor

21 participation and utility incentive programs

22 varies depending upon the locality and the
Page 35

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 geography. So, for a smaller utility in a

2 more rural area, it's possible to achieve a

3 very high level of participation.

4 But for big utilities like ours,

5 in urban areas, the participation in rebate

6 programs is much lower and I'd speculate in

7 the range of 20 to 30 percent. So, if a

8 contractor wishes to avoid the building

9 inspection process, wishes to avoid the cost

10 of buying the permit and perhaps replacing the

11 indoor coil they'll avoid participating in our

12 program and we just won't see them. So, there

13 is a fairly high level of nonparticipation in

14 these incentive programs.

15 MR. RAWALD: We have Harvey and,

16 then there's Jeff.

17 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey and

18 I want to make explicit something that has

19 just been floating in the background. the

20 utility incentive programs, in -- always, if

21 they're rate-pair funded, are about equipment

22 that's well above minimum requirements.
Page 36

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 The issues we're really looking at

2 here in enforcement are about equipment which

3 is at the minimum. And, in 20 years or so,

4 listening to utilities and their perspective

5 on the world, about the last thing they want

6 to do short of having a Chernobyl is to get

7 between the contractor and the customer on

8 installation of minimum-efficiency equipment. 

9 They don't want to be the cop.

10 So, they have a right to audit

11 something for which they're paying out money

12 but I suspect we'll find very few investor13 owned utilities that have any interest in

14 doing an inspection of a minimum-efficiency

15 piece of equipment. And I'm seeing Glenn's

16 head nod there. That's building inspectors,

17 if anybody.

18 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, Harvey,

19 this is Gary. You're absolutely correct.

20 MR. RAWALD: And, Ray, do you

21 agree with that point as well?

22 MEMBER ELLIS: I would suppose. 
Page 37

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 There's a pretty big difference between

2 cooperatives and IOUs --

3 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

4 MEMBER ELLIS: -- and

5 fundamentally different in that respect

6 because, like I said, we do have a really

7 intimate relationship with our members. And

8 we send, you know, we correspond with them on

9 a monthly basis if not more often.

10 MR. RAWALD: So you have higher

11 interest in your organization with possible

12 different mode efficiencies and systems than

13 an IOU, you think?

14 MEMBER ELLIS: I would think so.

15 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

16 MEMBER ELLIS: I mean it's too our

17 benefit as well. You'd have to understand the

18 rate structures in the northwest on what

19 incentivizes us now to try to do as much

20 energy efficiency as possible. But we've been

21 at it for, you know, 20 years.

22 And, then, like I said, fairly
Page 38

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 aggressive. You know, our little co-op, we've

2 got about 4200 members and we spend probably

3 upwards of $200,000 a year on energy

4 efficiency in our program. And, so, we're

5 trying to devise ways to increase that, if we 

6 can.

7 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey

8 again. I think, for those who've not been

9 involved in this utility program area, there's

10 an important point to be made. Gary can't

11 walk into his public utility commission and

12 ask for incentive money that he can pass along

13 to consumers and then recover in his rates for

14 meeting the law.

15 MR. RAWALD: Right.

16 MEMBER SACHS: He can do that for

17 stuff that's really much better to try to

18 change the market.

19 MR. RAWALD: Back here and you

20 introduced yourself yesterday but I forget

21 your name.

22 MR. DENNIS: This is Keith Dennis
Page 39

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 with the NRECA. So, I'm not -- this hasn't

2 really been discussed but my assumption is

3 that this is for minimum efficiency air

4 conditioners. But, you know, we are in the

5 context of potentially new laws that are going

6 to be, you know, having other places where

7 there may be some sort of incentives for

8 efficiency.

9 And I guess maybe a question for

10 the group is, if the model works for this,

11 will other areas like the northwest decide

12 that they might need some regional standards

13 and manufacturers are on board with them and

14 there may be situations where people are

15 putting in above minimum for credits for

16 different regulations.

17 So, in the broader context, I

18 think that this is limited in this instance. 

19 But it possibly could have broader

20 implications for compliance with regional

21 groups who decide that they want minimum

22 standards as well.
Page 40

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I mean I think it's all fluid. 

2 And right now there are certain regulatory

3 schemes that say, you know, you can't go

4 above, mandate above minimum standards and all

5 this other stuff. But one of our interests is

6 that this may set a precedent for other types

7 of programs and some of those may involve

8 utility incentives or combine, on a voluntary

9 basis, for credits, for instance.

10 So, I know that we're trying to be

11 very narrow here, but just kind of a thought

12 for a group, if that's something that --

13 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think that

14 what you're saying is you want us to be

15 sensitive to the fact that this could have

16 more far-reaching implications than what we

17 initially were thinking about.

18 MR. DENNIS: Right. So, the

19 standards aren't for just minimum-efficiency

20 things. In this instance, that's true but I

21 wouldn't dismiss that, you know, there is

22 information that we look at when we do
Page 41

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 incentives that are going to translate into

2 the information that we're going to get in

3 order to potentially comply with other things.

4 MR. RAWALD: Right.

5 MR. DENNIS: So, the process is

6 the same, in terms of the relationship between

7 the data that we get, the audits that we have

8 to do for potentially non-minimum-standard

9 things.

10 MR. RAWALD: Yes. So, what I'm

11 hearing from the full discussion here is some

12 ideas for public awareness, as well as some

13 ideas for possible consequences, both positive

14 and possibly negative for complying with the

15 standard. I think it's helpful for us, as we

16 frame our bigger discussions.

17 So, these are all good talking

18 points we can come back to. So, getting us

19 back to the labeling issue -- yes, Gary?

20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 

21 If I could add one point, just to be clear

22 about what we do and don't do in California. 
Page 42

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Harvey is absolutely correct. We can't give

2 rebates for products that just meet the

3 federal or state standards.

4 On the other hand, we do have a

5 Codes and Standards Program for which we're

6 subsidized through rates to provide and

7 ordered by the Public Utilities Commission to

8 operate. That's one of the reasons why I'm

9 here.

10 Part of that program is what we

11 call a compliance enhancement program. So,

12 through that, we work with the California

13 Energy Commission to provide outreach and

14 education to the market to facilitate

15 compliance. So, it's not inspection. It's

16 not doing the job of the building inspector or

17 being police.

18 But there is an educational effort

19 to try and make sure that those responsible

20 for compliance are aware of what they're

21 supposed to do.

22 MR. RAWALD: Okay. That's all
Page 43

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 very helpful information for us, as we frame

2 the discussion later on. So, going back to

3 kind of a refresher, we discussed labeling

4 rule.

5 Next, please. So, as I mentioned

6 earlier and folks asked yesterday, so we had

7 this furnace litigation -- yes?

8 MEMBER NOLL: Elizabeth with NRDC. 

9 Is there any data that supports the compliance

10 awareness part and the effectiveness that

11 would be useful for this group, in terms of --

12 MR. RAWALD: Are you asking that

13 question of Gary?

14 MEMBER NOLL: Yes.

15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: I am sorry,

16 Elizabeth. Can you repeat the question?

17 MEMBER NOLL: Is there any data

18 that shows how the effectiveness of that

19 compliance awareness program would be useful

20 for this group, if it were to translate more

21 broadly?

22 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes. The
Page 44

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 California Energy Commission collects data on

2 compliance in general, and we're in the

3 process of trying to collect some data on how

4 our efforts improve that compliance.

5 MR. RAWALD: And, so, Gary

6 mentioned the California Energy Commission,

7 and I also have Dave Hungerford on the line. 

8 So, perhaps he and you could together get some

9 of that data for Elizabeth that we are

10 interested in, for the group?

11 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Sure.

12 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, next

13 slide. So, part of the furnace litigation

14 settlement, this really is mostly ancillary to

15 what we did here. What's important is that

16 the results of the settlement was that it got

17 rid of that furnace portion of the regional

18 standards.

19 But it did create two things that

20 are of note to this group. So, as part of the

21 settlement, DOE agreed to clarify the position

22 regarding enforcement of regional standards
Page 45

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 with distributors. And, also, to exercise our

2 enforcement discretion by not seeking civil

3 penalties for violations of the regional

4 standards for products manufactured before the

5 compliance date. So, installed after or

6 installed before.

7 Next slide. So, I'll give you the

8 two guidance statements, or the two policy

9 statements, we call them. They're policy

10 statements from the Department explaining what

11 we mean here. And, so, the first one is this,

12 regarding distributors. And that's very

13 important to John Melchi.

14 So, DOE stated that we will not

15 assert full penalty authority. That means we

16 will not collect money. We will not collect

17 fines for violation of the regional standards

18 for central air conditioners, so limited to

19 central air conditioners, as described and we

20 talked about, to charge the distributors. So,

21 those distributors will not be charged money

22 for violation of that. That's all we said in
Page 46

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that conference. Yes, John -- John Hurst?

2 MR. HURST: Just for

3 clarification, because I believe the agreement

4 was distributors acting solely as

5 distributors. Lennox is a distributors, but

6 we're excluded from that.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. That's a very

8 important point, John. So, what we said was,

9 at the time, at 43 U.S.C. 5291, 14, in an

10 explanation, I'll give you the definition. 

11 You'll see that that means folks who only wear

12 the hat of a distributor, and are not multi13 hatted. That's why it's important. Very good

14 point, John.

15 Next slide. So, we also issued

16 this policy statement, same day, regarding an

17 18-month grace period. What we said was that

18 there's a lot of uncertainty in the market. 

19 We really don't want to stop things from

20 happening, because we know it's very late in

21 the game.

22 Let's go ahead and what we're
Page 47

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 going to agree to do is for 18 months. So,

2 until July 1, 2016, we will not bring actions

3 for units that are installed that are not

4 complying with regional standards that are

5 manufactured before January 1, 2015. So, if

6 you have a unit manufactured December 31st of

7 this year, you can go ahead and install it in

8 any region until July 1st of 2016, and it

9 won't be a violation and we won't pursue that

10 violation. So, that's what we agreed to.

11 Now, if you make one on January

12 1st and it's noncompliant with the regional

13 standard, and you install it on January 2nd of

14 2015, we do and can and will take an action

15 against those. So that's the guideline here. 

16 We said things manufactured before the

17 compliance date that are installed after

18 compliance date, for 18 months, we will not

19 take action against that limited group. Yes,

20 Gary?

21 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is

22 Gary for the IOUs again. My question is
Page 48

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 against whom have you stated you will not take

2 action?

3 MR. RAWALD: We have not

4 identified a party. So, that's the question

5 for this group. What is going to be an

6 effective enforcement mechanism for that? 

7 And, so, we need to talk about what would be

8 an action and how we'd want to take it. So,

9 let's open up for discussion.

10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. So, I

11 point out that the manufacturer and

12 distributor probably don't know where the unit

13 is going. So, it makes total sense that they

14 would not be held responsible through that

15 time period.

16 MR. RAWALD: So, that's a very

17 arguable point. Obviously, I will be hearing

18 it for much of the impending course of this

19 negotiation.

20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: And you can see

21 where I'm going with this. The contractor

22 does know and, at least in my opinion, should
Page 49

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 be held responsible.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right.

3 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Because, if

4 there's no enforcement, there's likely to be

5 little compliance.

6 MR. RAWALD: I think you're

7 identifying some of the difference in opinion

8 that we will be seeing more vividly as we get

9 along here. So, Elizabeth, you had your hand

10 up, and then we had the National Homebuilder

11 gentleman.

12 MEMBER NOLL: So, Elizabeth. Can

13 we go back to the slide prior?

14 MR. RAWALD: The distributor one?

15 MEMBER NOLL: The distributor. 

16 So, how is that -- is that for distributors in

17 this 18-month grace period or is that --

18 MR. RAWALD: No. We're saying,

19 for the purpose of regional standards. So,

20 our hands are tied here in the group. We

21 could not, in any way, decide to do something

22 as an enforcement plan that would assess civil
Page 50

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 penalties, fines against distributors who are

2 in the chain of marketing here for this.

3 MEMBER NOLL: So, it's just civil

4 penalties, and it's forever but that --

5 MR. RAWALD: Well, I don't want to

6 say forever. But for purposes of regional

7 standards, it hasn't met it currently. So,

8 they could be changed again later on and this

9 could evolve. But the current regional

10 standard, as promulgated under 403.32(c)(3),

11 which were the ones that are applicable on

12 January 1, 2015, those could change. You

13 know, the DOE could have new ones in 2020 or

14 something like that. So, I don't want to give

15 old scenarios.

16 MEMBER NOLL: Okay. So, in the

17 context of what we are developing here --

18 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

19 MEMBER NOLL: -- distributors

20 cannot have civil penalties, but could be

21 amended in the rule making in the future?

22 MR. RAWALD: Sure.
Page 51

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER NOLL: And is that, then,

2 making distributors -- I mean, what would then

3 be -- they still have rules and

4 responsibilities in this?

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think

6 that's open for discussion in the group. I

7 definitely want to hear it.

8 MEMBER NOLL: But they have no --

9 there's no stick that could be attached to

10 this?

11 MR. RAWALD: Well, sticks can be

12 different things, and we'll talk about that in

13 the next slide portion.

14 MEMBER NOLL: Okay.

15 MR. RAWALD: So, I don't think the

16 only stick the Department has is money. But

17 what we've agreed to in the settlement

18 agreement, what we've announced is there will

19 be no monetary fines assessed against

20 distributors who wear the sole of distributor,

21 as John Hurst explained. So, the folks that

22 really John and Steve represent. So, those
Page 52

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 folks will not be charged money, as a result

2 of this particular situation right here with

3 the regional standards. Does that make sense,

4 Elizabeth?

5 MEMBER NOLL: Yes.

6 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Tim?

7 MEMBER BALLO: Was someone in

8 front of me?

9 MR. RAWALD: They're not raising

10 their hand now. So, you're next in line.

11 MEMBER BALLO: So, I have a

12 question about this. As I read the policy

13 statement, it sounded a lot less like a rule

14 to me than you're saying it now does. You

15 seem to be saying that barring a change in the

16 CFR, DOE will not, absolutely will not enforce

17 against distributors?

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, policies

19 are not CFR. You're correct, Tim, sort of

20 from administrative perspective. What we're

21 saying is we, in the enforcement group, we've

22 agreed. We've entered a settlement agreement
Page 53

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to end litigation that we won't do this. So,

2 what I will tell you is that we're going to

3 honor that agreement.

4 And, so, we've taken a policy

5 statement. So, even if we were to come from

6 the regulations saying, hey, we're going to go

7 ahead and do something with distributors, the

8 policy statement says we are not doing it to

9 enforce these regional standards to assess

10 civil penalties against these distributors. 

11 So, that's what our policy is going to be. 

12 That's our enforcement policy, so we've agreed

13 to that fact.

14 So we could come together and

15 distributors could say, you know, we don't

16 want that anymore. It's okay. Or we could

17 change that. I think it needs something more

18 to do to come together, because we have an

19 agreement that we've entered into.

20 MEMBER NOLL: Well, we are at the

21 table.

22 MR. RAWALD: So, something for you
Page 54

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to think about, Tim. I know this is causing

2 a lot of thought.

3 MEMBER BALLO: It sure sounds like

4 a rule making to me, then.

5 MR. RAWALD: You know, so, the

6 idea of enforcement is that we have, the

7 enforcement always has discretion. If you

8 have a case, you can follow up on a case, if

9 you want. What we're saying is we will not

10 bring cases, in these instances it's against

11 those people. I'm sorry. I forget your name

12 from yesterday.

13 MR. SURRENA: It's okay. Don

14 Surrena, National Association of Homebuilders. 

15 And I'm not nearly as versed in this as my

16 esteemed colleagues here are with all the CFRs

17 and the different things. But I've seen a

18 couple things that have made this more

19 complicated, in my brain. One, that --

20 MR. RAWALD: Everyone's brain,

21 just so you know.

22 MR. SURRENA: -- the labeling,
Page 55

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 instead of being a number, is now a range. 

2 And the fact that equipment, if it had to be

3 a 14 SEER, that's the least that we put in. 

4 If you change the coil, you were just putting

5 a better carburetor on that engine to give it

6 more horsepower. But that seems to be a horse

7 that's already left the barn, and it can't be

8 changed.

9 But that complicating factor has

10 made all this point on direction as to who's

11 responsible for it, and it's the very end of

12 it. So, it's either going to be the consumer,

13 who does it on their own, or the installer. 

14 And that's just the onerous size of that to

15 regulate it is mind boggling. I don't know

16 how that's to be solved.

17 But I don't think the end of the

18 this rainbow is the consumer and the

19 installation contractor. I just I'm sitting

20 here going that can't be the direction we're

21 going here. It sounds that way to me.

22 MR. RAWALD: Well, what I say is
Page 56

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the Department doesn't want to foreclose any

2 directions at all. But we have what we've

3 said before, and where we are. And I want to 

4 be at least sensitive to that, as we discuss

5 here's what the playing field is at the

6 moment. Let's go ahead and see what we can do

7 with these guys who are in the field and can

8 we make this work or not? We'll go from

9 there. Yes, Chuck?

10 MEMBER WHITE: So, a clarification

11 --

12 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

13 MEMBER WHITE: You didn't say you

14 wouldn't enforce it. You said you wouldn't

15 seek civil penalties. So, that doesn't mean

16 you can't go out and talk to people that are

17 selling wrong products.

18 MR. RAWALD: You're one hundred

19 percent correct.

20 MEMBER WHITE: So, there's a

21 distinction there. It's not that they're not

22 going to enforce it. You're just not going to
Page 57

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 have to pay any money, if you're in trouble.

2 MR. RAWALD: Right. The

3 Department's policy is limited to stay of

4 collection of civil penalties.

5 MEMBER WHITE: If you're a

6 distributor. So, the contractor obviously

7 plays an important role and it's up to him to

8 make sure that the components comply. But the

9 contractor doesn't hatch these out of an egg

10 in his basement. So, he has to get the

11 equipment from a distributor.

12 So, if we had a distributor that

13 has old product, the contractor's faced with

14 a lot of issues. And we touched on yesterday

15 internet sales is a huge issue. So, the

16 contractor has some responsibility here, but

17 his life is going to get more difficult.

18 MR. RAWALD: You know, from my

19 point of view, and I don't know about other

20 folks, I would be interested to hear about how

21 much internet sales there are and how that

22 impacts contractors and installers, because it
Page 58

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 seems to me that, even if a consumer buys a

2 unit off the internet, they still need someone

3 intelligent enough to install that thing for

4 them. So, there's still some installer

5 involved in it. So, I don't want to get into

6 it right now. I do not want to give the

7 indication to sit around and talk about that.

8 MR. CALABRESE: Dave Calabrese,

9 Daiken Corporation. I thought that the policy

10 inhibits civil and criminal penalties.

11 MR. RAWALD: The Department has no

12 jurisdiction criminally.

13 MR. CALABRESE: Right.

14 MR. RAWALD: So, we've always say

15 we will not assess civil penalties. And, like

16 anything in former presentations, you'll

17 understand that civil penalties are a part of

18 what we do. And I think you may be familiar 

19 from your AHRI days that we use them quite a

20 bit. And, so, we'll talk about that. But

21 what we said was limit only the civil

22 penalties. Any other questions? This is the
Page 59

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 last slide in this presentation. So, any

2 other questions left? Karen, you're raising

3 two hands.

4 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes. So --

5 MR. RAWALD: You have a lot of

6 questions.

7 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes. So, this is

8 Karen with Rheem. So, did the Department

9 define what a violation is? What does a

10 violation mean?

11 MR. RAWALD: No. It's got a

12 simple answer. No. So, the question for the

13 group is do we want to define it? What term

14 do we want to define? So, the term violation

15 in the statute, if you look in your copy of

16 6295(o)(6), it discusses violation somewhere

17 I'm sure.

18 We'll discuss that later on in the

19 equipment conditions, they're also in there. 

20 But, no, the word violation itself is not

21 defined. There's a dictionary definition for

22 it. But, in this context, it's not defined. 
Page 60

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Any other question on this list? Yes, Matt?

2 MEMBER LATTANZI: Matt Lattanzi,

3 Nordyne. As we were going through a lot of

4 the stuff, we touched a lot on the energy

5 guide label and 14 SEER and coils and air

6 movers and we kind of circled back a little to

7 discussions we were having yesterday. What is

8 the definition of a 14 SEER? And I think

9 where we ended it yesterday is that's one of

10 the takeaways, that we need DOE to answer that

11 question.

12 MR. RAWALD: Right.

13 MEMBER LATTANZI: So, my

14 assumption is there will be a guidance

15 document forthcoming that's going to answer

16 that question at some point. The reason for

17 my comment, and where I'm going with this is

18 there's ramifications to the answer of that

19 question well prior to 1/1/2015 --

20 MR. RAWALD: Sure.

21 MEMBER LATTANZI: -- in the

22 marketplace.
Page 61

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Well, that's the

2 question today. Right. So, the question is

3 what's 12 SEER? What's 13 SEER? I mean the

4 same question.

5 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, I think we

6 have an understanding of 12 and 13. It's 14

7 SEER I think is the big question.

8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Go ahead.

9 MEMBER LATTANZI: And where I'm

10 going with is do you have a feel for when we

11 can expect to see that guidance?

12 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what I

13 think is I should be able to get at least some

14 answer this afternoon on some of this. But

15 we'll talk more about what that answer will

16 be. I'll try to get somebody this afternoon

17 to come down and talk us through what we've

18 got there.

19 MEMBER LATTANZI: Thank you. 

20 That's very big for us.

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Any other

22 question on kind of where the regional
Page 62

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 standards have come from, where they are and

2 what we've said about them at this point? 

3 Okay. So, are you guys ready to jump to the

4 next show or do you want to take a break? 

5 It's been only 45 minutes, so I can keep

6 talking.

7 Okay, so for the uninitiated,

8 DOE's energy appliance efficiency program is

9 based on two or three different parts of CFR. 

10 We have part 429, which discusses basically

11 certification and enforcement, what we're

12 going to do; 430, which lays out what the

13 standard test procedures are for consumer

14 products and 431, which are commercial and

15 industrial equipment.

16 For our purposes here, 431 doesn't

17 matter, because we're all talking about

18 consumer products. So, the things we care

19 about are in 429 and 430. Go to the next

20 slide, please.

21 So, there are parties that define

22 EPCA and those are very important for purposes
Page 63

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of enforcement, and we discussed them a little

2 bit earlier. But he main party under EPCA is

3 the manufacturer and those persons are people

4 who manufacture and assemble, produce, or

5 import.

6 So, we, in DOE, in the enforcement

7 scheme, we treat someone who imports something

8 as the same thing as someone who builds

9 something domestically. So, they're both

10 manufacturers in our eyes and we treat them

11 the same for all our enforcement provisions. 

12 That's a very important point to us.

13 So, another entity that has a lot

14 of importance and is important in this

15 industry, as well, I think are private

16 labelers. Those are folks who own a brand or

17 trademark but they don't actually manufacture

18 the parts that have that brand or trademark. 

19 So, those folks have some legal responsibility

20 as well under EPCA.

21 So, next slide. We have retailers

22 who are defined. Those are like your big box
Page 64

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 stores, our Best Buys. So, those are folks

2 who buy consumer product but they're not going

3 to use it. They're going to sell it to

4 somebody else, probably. So, somebody else is

5 then going to use it. So, that's the case

6 where the retailer is.

7 And distributors are folks who are

8 not manufacturers or retailers. So, that's

9 why it's important. A distributor, when you

10 look at the word distributor, you have to say

11 it first. Are they a manufacturer, like

12 Lennox? Then they are not a distributor.

13 Are they a retailer, like Best

14 Buy, so they can't be a distributor? And,

15 then, if they are not one of those other two

16 entities, then they could a distributor, if

17 the consumer product is delivered to them and

18 they sell them, because they're going to go

19 sell them to somebody else. So, they're a

20 middleman in the operation. So, does that

21 make sense, all these rules?

22 So, those are the rules we've
Page 65

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 defined. Now, there are other roles that are

2 in this rule that we have before us that are

3 not defined. So, I pitched yesterday of

4 possibly discussing definitions for those. 

5 Yes?

6 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena, NAHB. 

7 Is there a warranty limit that would make you

8 a distributor?

9 MR. RAWALD: No. So, this is the

10 sole amount that Congress told us. Congress

11 told us, this is what they are. So, there's

12 no number. This is the exact language from

13 the statute.

14 MR. SURRENA: So, if you're a

15 contractor and you buy five units and then

16 through the years you sell them, you have now

17 become a distributor?

18 MR. RAWALD: Well, the question is,

19 what you're doing is distribution of commerce

20 and is the consumer product delivered? It's

21 your purpose of selling that. Yes. There's

22 an argument there that you could be considered
Page 66

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a distributor. So, --

2 MR. SURRENA: Thank you.

3 MR. RAWALD: Any other questions? 

4 Anybody? Karen, question? Okay. Charlie?

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie with ACCA. 

6 So, in light of the comment there -- no, not

7 going to ask it. I'm not going to ask it.

8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. They make

9 statutes hard for a reason, right? John?

10 MR. HURST: John Hurst, with

11 Lennox. It'd just like to make clarification. 

12 In some of the comments that I read the last

13 time around, they talked about big-box

14 retailers. Big-box retailers don't take

15 possession of the equipment. So, if there's

16 any confusion as to how to enforce through a

17 big-box retailer, the contractor runs the

18 ticket through the big-box retailer. None of

19 the big-box-retailer programs takes possession

20 of the equipment.

21 MR. RAWALD: Yes. I'm not

22 familiar with their interactions at all in
Page 67

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 this program. So, I'm very curious to hear

2 about that, and what you are saying. So, I

3 don't really know how they fit in this chain

4 of events.

5 So, next slide, please. So, the

6 key term after that is distribution in

7 commerce. What does that mean? It means to

8 sell. It means to import. So, here we have

9 import appearing again. It means introduce, 

10 or deliver production to commerce or hold for

11 sale distribution.

12 So, it's not just selling. It's a

13 lot of other things that come into possibly

14 distributing to commerce. So, we're sensitive

15 to this term, because distribution in commerce

16 in a triggering event for a lot of things that

17 we do in enforcement outside of the usual

18 standards context. So, that's a big important

19 event for us, are you distributing in

20 commerce? That means you're doing things that

21 we are concerned about.

22 Next slide, please. So, our
Page 68

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 program is built around to cover many products

2 and equipment. And the number of models that

3 we cover in the course of that are, you can

4 imagine, infinite. And, so, the best way for

5 us to encourage compliance with that is

6 through a self-certification program.

7 So, the cornerstone of our

8 enforcement program is that manufacturers, so

9 either those people that are making it or

10 importing it or assembling or producing it,

11 are required to certify the compliance of

12 their products with our standards. So, they

13 have to actually tell us, the Department, I'm

14 building Model XYZ. Model XYZ performs as

15 required and here's its actual performance

16 data or numbers. So, it's a spreadsheet the

17 fill out with that type of information.

18 So, they submit that every year. 

19 You tell us about your parts that your

20 currently producing. So, we keep track of

21 everything that's out there. And the point of

22 that is to rely upon manufacturers to be doing
Page 69

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the right thing, in that particular instance. 

2 And then, of course, we go back and edit those

3 or we audit those. Excuse me.

4 But folks are rating their

5 efficiency. And they have to base it upon

6 something. And, so, they have to do it based

7 upon testing, or the use of an alternative

8 estimation tool. Now, in the context of

9 central air conditioning, we allow what's

10 called altered rating method and it has to be

11 approved by the Department.

12 So, folks that are certifying

13 their central air conditioning can do either

14 testing of their units, or actually do this

15 modeling, as long as it's been approved by the

16 Department. And you're certifying your base

17 model.

18 Next slide, when the base model is

19 certified, it goes on our database. Here we

20 have a public database. So, it is somewhat

21 similar to, in some ways, to AHRI's database,

22 only it covers many more parts and it lists
Page 70

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 items by products.

2 Next slide. Here's an example of

3 our central air conditioning split system

4 amount. We have 1.6 million models currently

5 in there. What you'll see is that, actually,

6 those are base models and a lot of wildcards. 

7 So, the actual permutations are quite large of

8 models that we have matching. We always match

9 the outdoor unit with the indoor unit and,

10 possibly, the air mover, which has come up

11 here quite a bit, and gives you the cooling

12 capacity as well as the SEER value, which is

13 important.

14 So, that's information we

15 collection and we put out there for the

16 public. And, so, the point with that is okay,

17 here's what the manufacturers certify their

18 part will do. Next slide.

19 MR. EISNER: So, this is another

20 place where the consumer can go to find out

21 the SEER value?

22 MR. RAWALD: Absolutely. 
Page 71

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Absolutely. But, if you go back, go back one

2 slide. I'm sorry. Right there, Jeremiah. 

3 The one thing that makes this not as

4 transparent as some people would like is this

5 use of wildcards, right, because that might

6 cause people to go, okay, where am I on this

7 wildcard issue? So, let's be sensitive to

8 that. I mean we do allow the use of

9 wildcards. They are used regularly.

10 Now, AHRI does feed their database

11 into our database. So, that's how we get the

12 AHRI member or AHRI certified program, even

13 ours. But we also require every non-AHRI

14 member that you provide your information to

15 us. So, non-AHRI members are also on our

16 database.

17 MR. EISNER: Why do you not

18 include the label in the record?

19 MR. RAWALD: Why do we not include

20 the label? So, we have not done that. And,

21 actually, none of these fields are actually

22 active at all. People can't actually -- So,
Page 72

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 unlike AHRI, where you can put that in a field

2 and get a certification, we don't have that

3 technology. I we have is simply the

4 information. So, we don't provide either one

5 of those items. There's no why to it. We

6 just don't.

7 MR. EISNER: And is there any way

8 to do a comparative analysis of the number,

9 which as the sliding scale that's on the

10 label?

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, I'm not

12 sure what you're saying.

13 MR. EISNER: To compare it to

14 other equipment that's available on the

15 marketplace to meet their needs, the

16 efficiency rating of this particular piece of

17 equipment. They're showing it as a ratio.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, you can

19 use the SEER value. You can make it so you

20 can move it to 14. Okay. What if it was

21 actually a 14 SEER? All of this returns 14

22 SEER combinations.
Page 73

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: So, you can see the

2 relevant combinations?

3 MR. RAWALD: Yes. More questions? 

4 Yes.

5 MEMBER BALLO: Just to Neil's

6 point. The FTC has stopped comment on

7 including the labels in this database.

8 MR. AMRANE: As an FYI, you can

9 get that HOI information.

10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. That was

11 Karim. Karen?

12 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes. This is

13 Karen, with Rheem. So, really though just as

14 a point of clarification. That's not 1.692

15 models. It's 1.69 combination, million

16 combinations.

17 MR. RAWALD: So, to be clear, so,

18 from the DOE's perspective, we consider the

19 combination to be the basic model. So, in the

20 central air conditioning world, a central air

21 conditioner we define, the basic model is the

22 combination of the indoor and the outdoor for
Page 74

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a split-system air conditioner. So, we would

2 view that to be a base model. So, we listed

3 that as base model.

4 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay. Thank you.

5 MR. RAWALD: Yes, Jordan.

6 MEMBER DORIA: Dave, would you

7 mind going back to Slide 6 of the

8 presentation?

9 MR. RAWALD: Sure.

10 MEMBER DORIA: Talking about the

11 certification reports, and sort of the

12 historical perspective of what has been. It

13 has technically been product compliance for

14 the manufacturers. Is there anything that

15 says it has to be limited to does a product

16 comply? Meaning from the manufacturer, could

17 it be broader than that?

18 MR. RAWALD: So, the purpose of

19 the certification is, it's created by

20 regulation, first of all. So, we could talk

21 about a way to change the regulations, if

22 that's a concern. But the purpose of the
Page 75

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 certification is for the manufacturer to say

2 to us, I am complying and here is the

3 performance criteria that I'm performing at,

4 which can be better than the compliance

5 requirement.

6 So, people will say, hey, I have a

7 22 SEER basic model. We'll put that on the

8 database. So, I'm not exactly sure what the

9 scope your question is asking.

10 MEMBER DORIA: So, I'll just be

11 clear. I guess what I was thinking is this

12 seems like it was set up for what has been the

13 traditional approach, which is a base national

14 standard.

15 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

16 MEMBER DORIA: When you start to

17 think about regional standards and the other

18 acts that will be prohibited under it, I

19 wonder if this couldn't some way be broader

20 such that it would better support a regional

21 approach, meaning would you think that you'd

22 just submit certification about pure product
Page 76

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 compliance or, you know, would there be some

2 way to consider other acts to further

3 demonstrate compliance, because it's not just

4 about the product anymore.

5 MR. RAWALD: So, I think the

6 table's open for that. That's an open item. 

7 So, we can discuss that. Elizabeth?

8 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 

9 Are you suggesting the contractor upload or

10 are you still saying, at the manufacturer

11 level?

12 MEMBER DORIA: My head, initially,

13 was that there could be some role for

14 additional submitting of information, probably

15 at the manufacturer level. But really what I

16 was asking was just fundamentally how open is

17 this to change? That's really the question.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this

19 database has been in effect for about four

20 years. So, I mean it's still evolving. It's

21 in its current form now only for about a year22 and-a-half. So, the way it looks right now is
Page 77

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 slightly scaled. So, I think the Department

2 is always wanting to hear ideas on improving

3 it and, if there is a way to tailor this tool

4 that we already have to meet our needs in

5 regional standards, I'll be interested in

6 hearing other ideas. So, John?

7 MR. HURST: John Hurst, from

8 Lennox. Probably not the time to debate that

9 but can we kind of add that to the list,

10 because there's some simple things we might be

11 able to do with that database to make it

12 easier for contractors or even consumers to

13 tell whether or not something is both legal or

14 not legal in their particular region.

15 MR. RAWALD: Yes. I can add this

16 scope document, discussion of ways to use CCMS

17 as a tool for here in the enforcement of

18 regional standards.

19 MR. HURST: Correct.

20 MR. RAWALD: That's a valid point. 

21 Okay. So, that's one of the tools that we

22 have. And, yes, Harvey?
Page 78

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey, and

2 I just want to note that there's a

3 complimentary tool out there. A significant

4 number of the better contractors use various

5 third-party tools that incorporate things like

6 ACCA Manual J, a load calculator.

7 And these, to a greater or lesser

8 extent, allow the contractor to play with

9 alternative specifications to present a good10 better-best to the consumer for choice. And

11 this capability to do right will require

12 knowing about the three components, in order

13 to give that value and, beyond that, to do

14 some energy estimates.

15 So, it's just another tool that's

16 out there that draws CCMS. The AHRI directory

17 I don't know what they're doing now for

18 attention, but it is apparently a factor in

19 the market.

20 MR. RAWALD: I'm not familiar with

21 that tool. So, I mentioned it here and we'll

22 put that on there. I don't know if you could
Page 79

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 talk to Chuck and Glenn and get a sense of how

2 often their contractors are really using that

3 tool, possibly outside of the context of this

4 meeting, and bring back that kind of

5 information. That would be useful to know.

6 MEMBER SACHS: I think it's things

7 like Wrightsoft. 

8 PARTICIPANT: That's their site

9 name.

10 MR. RAWALD: Yes. So, if you guys

11 have copies outside the meeting and we talk

12 about that, that would be helpful. So --

13 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn,

14 just real quick. Harvey is referring to

15 Manual J, which is a code requirement to do a

16 proper load calculation on a home, so you know

17 what size box to put in. We're speaking about

18 whatever box you put it, we want the SEER to

19 be the right level. And DOE's somewhat

20 agnostic whether if you put the right size or

21 not. As long as it's 14 SEER, they don't care

22 if you're oversized.
Page 80

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: That might be the

2 reality. I have no sense of that topic. So,

3 any other question on what Jordan brought us

4 back to? Okay. Let's go past public

5 database.

6 Within the extent of the public

7 database, there's a lot of public, in some

8 way, carrot, right, unless you advertise how

9 good your product is. So, I want to make sure

10 that, as we talked about yesterday,

11 consequences aren't always negative. There

12 can be positive ones. So, what we have here

13 in our enforcement reporting is a very

14 positive consequence.

15 It's a way of saying, not only am

16 I compliant but I'm way past compliance. Let

17 me show you how good my product is. That's

18 part of what our enforcement rules are. So,

19 we have also these various tools that we

20 actually use on a daily basis for enforcing

21 our regulations.

22 And, so, they start with our
Page 81

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 warnings, which are used when people actually

2 submit something to us and they make a

3 mistake. We issue warnings on a regular basis

4 and say, hey, you made a mistake. Fix that

5 mistake.

6 We also collect data. So, there

7 are many reasons why we'll want to ask a

8 manufacturer about data. And we'll talk about

9 that. That's what we do on a daily basis. We

10 also do testing and we issue documents. We

11 issue noncompliance determinations, and we

12 also issue proposed civil penalties, which are

13 reflected up on there. 

14 Next slide, please. Let's go to

15 ACCA Information. Next Slide. So DOE

16 regulations allow us any time to collect

17 information regarding the products that folks

18 are covered, they are creating. So, we want

19 to know what the data is, essentially.

20 Usually, what we're asking for is

21 what data do you rely upon to tell us that

22 you're compliant? And, so, we'll often send
Page 82

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 out a data request saying, hey, we're

2 essentially auditing you. Give us the data

3 that you relied upon.

4 So, to meet that requirement --

5 next slide -- manufacturers are required to

6 retain records. So, we have, at the very

7 basic level, a requirement that folks who are

8 manufacturing products that are covered retain

9 the records they used to decide if a product

10 is compliant with our regulations. So, that's

11 a very important piece of our puzzle this

12 requirement on the manufacturer to retain

13 these records.

14 It's something that could be

15 considered to be how would that play into our

16 current situation. So, the records have to be

17 organized. Why do they have to be organized? 

18 So, when I ask you for them, you can come back

19 to me in a timely manner and say here's the

20 answer to your question, Doug. I have these

21 records for you. Here's the answer.

22 And they should be retained for
Page 83

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you for two years after you discontinue your

2 product. So, even if your product's off the

3 market, you still have to keep the records

4 around for two more years, because I may want

5 to ask about it and I may have concerns that,

6 during the years it was being sold, it was

7 actually noncompliant. So, that requirement

8 extends past the life of the product. That's

9 the current burden on the manufacturers today

10 for retaining records. Next slide.

11 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Actually, I had

12 a question.

13 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

14 MEMBER MEYERS: This is Amy

15 Shepherd. And I can look it up, but you're

16 standing right there.

17 MR. RAWALD: Well, I'm standing

18 here as well.

19 MEMBER MEYERS: So, for the

20 request for information, the 429.106 where you

21 can request information at any time, is that

22 limited to manufacturers, or do you have the
Page 84

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 ability to request information from any

2 person?

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, subpoena

4 authority is not limited. If we go back to

5 our -- of course, I'm distracted now. You go

6 back one slide. So, we don't say who the

7 parties are. So, you get to be broad. So, we

8 view our ability to collect information from

9 anyone that had that information.

10 MEMBER NOLL: You're saying, that

11 subpoena authority. When you say that, do you

12 mean subpoena like you go to a Court, or do

13 you mean the DOE --

14 MR. RAWALD: Let's go two slides

15 forward. So, subpoena authority is issued by

16 the Department. So, the Department has the

17 authority, under ACCA, and we use that in our

18 regulations, to issue subpoenas. So, the

19 secretary who is designated, which would be

20 Laura Barhydt, General Counsel for

21 enforcement, can issue an subpoena saying you

22 are required to give this information and
Page 85

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 these documents to the Department.

2 MEMBER MEYERS: And that's to any

3 person, not just manufacturers?

4 MR. RAWALD: To any person.

5 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay. And, then,

6 the 106 authority, which I think is two slides

7 forward, is that also any person or --

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, it's

9 written broadly. And, so, I would say it's

10 anybody with relevant information, but Laura

11 may countermand this.

12 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay.

13 MR. RAWALD: And she's nodding her

14 head that she does agree it says any person,

15 which is not surprising, that we view our

16 authority broadly.

17 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay.

18 MR. RAWALD: Now, Amy asked, for

19 the moment, if somebody refused to obey a

20 subpoena, we can have the authority to go to

21 a U.S. District Court and get them to enforce

22 the subpoena. So, the court will then follow
Page 86

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 up on that subpoena. So, that's something

2 that we use. These are all tools we use to

3 investigate violations, to see if there

4 actually is something going on.

5 Next slide, please. Now, we also

6 test. Next slide. So, we have two basic

7 testings that we do. We have assessment

8 testing and we have enforcement testing. So,

9 assessment testing is paid for by the

10 Department. We do that to kind of keep a

11 check on the industry. So, we want to go out

12 there and we want to test a certain number of

13 products and see if they actually are -- how

14 they look. Yes, Elizabeth?

15 MEMBER NOLL: I apologize. Going

16 back to the subpoena.

17 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

18 MEMBER NOLL: The failure to obey

19 punishable by court, that whole thing, that

20 can be, again, on anyone. So, not civil

21 penalties, but just in terms of record

22 retention or requirement and --
Page 87

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Right.

2 MEMBER NOLL: -- and origin of

3 reply.

4 MR. RAWALD: So, the subpoena,

5 this contempt is -- so the court issues an

6 order. And Congress said, hey, if they ignore

7 the court position and order saying following

8 the subpoena, the court can do what the court

9 does to those who don't listen to the court.

10 MEMBER NOLL: Right.

11 MR. RAWALD: So, that's giving the

12 court authority to take action. That's beyond

13 DOE. That's saying the U.S. District Court

14 has the authority to do what they can to

15 enforce their rule. Their order was issued

16 because we issued a subpoena, and no one

17 listened to it.

18 MEMBER NOLL: Got you.

19 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

20 MEMBER NOLL: Sorry.

21 MR. RAWALD: Yes. Oh, question to

22 everyone. Bruce Helft, do we know where he's
Page 88

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 from?

2 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary,

3 California Energy Commission

4 PARTICIPANT: That's where he's

5 from.

6 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MR. RAWALD: All right. He asked

9 what is the criteria for a test lab for tests

10 to report data for certification submittals? 

11 Is there a vetting or approval process for a 

12 test lab managed by the DOE? So, his question

13 asks a couple different things here. So, what

14 is the criteria for a test lab that tests and

15 reports data certification submissions?

16 So, what the Department allows is,

17 we allow the manufacturer to test their own

18 products or to have a third-party lab test it

19 for them. Now, we had a test cue that

20 required a lab do certain things, but most of

21 our products we do not have a requirement that

22 the lab actually be accredited by a particular
Page 89

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 organization. So, we had not required that.

2 In fact, when someone looks to

3 figure out who is going to test your products,

4 but you should find someone you're going to

5 use a test procedure, and probably

6 accreditation would probably be a way to get 

7 an idea of whether they actually are going to

8 follow a test procedure. So, now, for

9 electric motors and for lighting, we do have

10 a requirement that's specific to the actual

11 accreditation. But these products right here,

12 since we're up here, we do not.

13 So, is there a vetting or approval

14 process for a test lab managed by DOE? So, we

15 do have a process that we go through in

16 government contracting in order to get to our

17 labs that we use. We do have to make sure

18 that they actually can use the DOE test

19 procedure appropriately. So, we do keep an

20 eye on the lab and make sure they're doing the

21 right thing. So, we do have our own internal

22 process to make sure the lab's actually
Page 90

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 functioning in a way that we think is

2 appropriate for us to rely upon as a vetting

3 agent.

4 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is

5 Gary. I'm going to ask you a follow-up

6 question on Bruce's behalf.

7 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

8 MEMBER FERNSTROM: By the way, the

9 California Energy Commission has been given

10 authority by the legislature to levy fines,

11 directly, for violation of the California

12 Appliance Standards. And it has a rule, I

13 think, underway, determining how it's going to

14 do that. So, Bruce's questions are related to

15 how California might learn from DOE's

16 experience.

17 So, when you say there's a process

18 for labs to be certified to satisfy DOE, is

19 that an ISO standard or --

20 MR. RAWALD: So, we're going

21 pretty far outside my range of knowledge. And

22 I'm not going to belabor that point in this
Page 91

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 particular forum, because I don't think it's

2 necessary for us. But we could certainly have

3 Bruce talk later to Laura and to Ashley

4 Armstrong. And they can go through a process

5 that we go through with government contracting

6 in order to make sure that these labs meet the

7 requirements. That might be most helpful.

8 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Thank you.

9 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey, and

10 we've spent a lot of time on this in the

11 commercial products we're making negotiated

12 rule making last summer and there are ISO

13 processes that are germane, and I personally

14 believe that adequate assurance to CEC and

15 others of a lab that's behaving properly.

16 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. So, this

17 is Gary. And to go back to your point, you're

18 talking about labs which would contract with

19 the government. And I understand they need to

20 meet the government requirements. But I was

21 speaking about labs that manufacturers might

22 engage in order to submit information.
Page 92

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Right.

2 MEMBER FERNSTROM: And I'm

3 presuming in that case, ultimately, the

4 manufacturer who is submitting is responsible. 

5 So, it's up to them to assure that they've got

6 the correct --

7 MR. RAWALD: No. That's

8 absolutely 100 percent correct. So, if the

9 manufacturer relies upon a lab that doesn't do

10 the right thing, and the data comes back and

11 it's wrong, and we test the product and the

12 product fails, the manufacturer is the one

13 who's at fault. They're the one that's

14 liable. That's correct.

15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Thank you.

16 MR. RAWALD: So, does everyone

17 understand that? That's the way it is. So,

18 the manufacturer needs to be careful who they

19 choose to test their products.

20 Okay. Turning back to what we

21 were talking about here. So, our testing. We

22 do the assessment tests, which we do use
Page 93

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 government-contracted labs, as we discussed

2 between talking to Gary. They do follow test

3 procedures.

4 And, what will happen is DOE will

5 go out and we'll buy a product. We'll bring

6 it to the lab and we'll test it. And, if we

7 find that one unit that we test is not

8 working, is not meeting the standards, excuse

9 me, if it fails to meet the standards, then we

10 will actually then engage in what's called

11 enforcement testing. So, we're going to

12 contact the manufacturer and say, hey, provide

13 us more, so that we can go look at these

14 things and we can test them.

15 And, once we test a certain

16 statistically significant number, we'll then

17 be able to make a judgment about whether

18 they're actually complying with the standards

19 or not. So, that's our testing program. It's

20 very short and sweet here for your folks. I

21 don't think we need to belabor this point. 

22 Any question on it?
Page 94

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Next slide. So, what do we do

2 when we find something noncompliant? As I

3 mentioned earlier, when we were talking about

4 these things the Department does, there are

5 money things and there are kind of these

6 public shaming activities.

7 So, we have this noncompliance

8 termination. It's a written notice from the

9 Department. It says, hey, manufacturer, we

10 found your product non-complaint. And, as

11 part of that, you now have to tell everyone

12 that you sold your product to that it's not

13 compliant.

14 See, that's, in some way, a stick. 

15 Right? That is, in some way, a very negative

16 thing on the manufacturer, to have to go and

17 tell someone, hey, by the way, we were told by

18 the Department of Energy that we didn't meet

19 the minimum standard required by federal law.

20 So, that is a stick, in some way, 

21 that we wield over folks that fail to comply. 

22 And you having them view with you the records
Page 95

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of everything you sold, too, so we can make

2 sure you did notify everyone and, also, so we

3 can figure out what civil penalty might apply.

4 Now, we do have an attempted

5 program. We say, hey, listen. If you want to

6 make your product better, you can go ahead and

7 do so but now you have to go ahead and tell us

8 why it's better, what you did to it

9 differently and, then, you can go and we'll

10 let you sell it again. So, we do have that

11 kind of you did something bad but you can fix

12 it piece to it. Anyone have a question with

13 this?

14 Okay. Next slide. So, then, we

15 go to our last thing, which is our civil

16 penalties. So, we assess civil penalties for

17 people who commit prohibited acts. So, the

18 maximum civil penalty we're allowed to assess

19 under law is $200 per violation.

20 So, the way we view that is, we do

21 it per day, per paperwork violation. So, if

22 I ask you something and you don't give me,
Page 96

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 everyday you don't give it to me, I get $200

2 for that information. And, then, for units

3 that are sold that are not complaint, per

4 unit. So, if you make, you know, 1,000 units

5 of a refrigerator that are not complaint, it's

6 $200 per unit. So, that's the maximum

7 penalties that you'll face.

8 So, we'll look at the maximum

9 penalty. We'll discuss what the appropriate

10 penalty will be in light of a number of

11 factors that we've discussed internally, as

12 far as an enforcement policy goes, and, then,

13 we'll come up with a number that we'll pursue

14 as being the right penalty for this paperwork

15 violation.

16 Let's talk about, you folks asked

17 yesterday specifically what are the prohibited

18 acts? So, let's get through those real quick. 

19 So, there are ten prohibited acts that we

20 currently have in our regulations. Most of

21 them, as Charlie indicated yesterday, deal

22 with manufacturers.
Page 97

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 So, the first is their failure to

2 provide records. That's essentially what that

3 big long paragraph says. If we ask you for

4 information and you don't give it to us, then,

5 that's a prohibitive act. That includes

6 failing to file that annual certification

7 report. That's a prohibited act, so we can

8 collection money for that. Next is failure to

9 test your products.

10 MEMBER NOLL: Doug?

11 MR. RAWALD: Yes?

12 MEMBER NOLL: In this one, it

13 says, failure of a manufacturer to provide. 

14 In the context of what we're discussing here,

15 can that be broader, if records are --

16 MR. RAWALD: The Department's

17 position here is that we could down for

18 prohibited acts that would be tailored for

19 this instance. Yes.

20 MEMBER NOLL: Okay.

21 MR. RAWALD: We're looking at what

22 we have now to help inform us of what we could
Page 98

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 do in the context of regional standards.

2 MEMBER SHEPHERD: May I ask a

3 clarification about that? So, that basis of

4 the broader authority is because you're saying

5 or the Department's view is that this is a

6 very broad definition of manufacturer that

7 includes assembly?

8 MR. RAWALD: No. I don't want to

9 say that. That's what Gary explained earlier

10 and what was said.

11 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay. So, how 

12 --

13 MR. RAWALD: What I said today is,

14 given the mandate from Congress to develop an

15 effective enforcement plan, the Department's

16 opinion, at the moment, is this is a up for

17 negotiation and discussion.

18 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.

19 MR. RAWALD: But, for purposes of

20 negotiation, our opinions are our authority is

21 as broad as possible to meet the need of

22 creating an effective enforcement program.
Page 99

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER SHEPHERD: So, your

2 position is, then, that the language that was

3 added in the regional standards provision of

4 the standards of 6295 basically means that you

5 can do whatever you want, and you're no longer

6 tied to the specific delineated authority? 

7 I'm just trying to figure out here this is --

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I don't

9 want to go that far, because that's not

10 correct.

11 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.

12 MR. RAWALD: And, so, the

13 Department has not officially released any

14 sort of interpretation or provision on this. 

15 So, we have a statute. The statute has told

16 us to do this. So, we're coming to you and

17 we're saying, let's open a effective

18 enforcement program together.

19 What I'm telling you is that we,

20 in the course of negotiation, we view our

21 authority as broadly as necessary to make an

22 effective enforcement plan. So, if folks come
Page 100

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 together today and say, the only way we can do

2 this is, if we have a way we would act for

3 this. Then we would, of course, think that

4 that would be okay.

5 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.

6 MR. RAWALD: We'll go back then

7 and take that legal analysis on that

8 appropriately. But, at the moment, this is a

9 negotiation to figure out what we can do to

10 make an effective enforcement plan. The

11 table's open.

12 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.

13 MR. RAWALD: Does that make sense?

14 MEMBER NOLL: So, these are meant

15 as examples of --

16 MR. RAWALD: These are the ones

17 that are coming up. Folks asked me yesterday,

18 what do you guys prohibit right now? So, what

19 do we have out there? Now, some of these come

20 directly from the statute, some are

21 interpreted from the statute. The statute has

22 what's prohibited acts, and we have ones that
Page 101

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 drafting the statute and ones that have been

2 interpreted by our statutory authority.

3 And, so, that's consistent with

4 that. I think that we can arguably develop

5 prohibited acts that are interpreted from our

6 authority that we have here from Congress. 

7 So, now we have lawyers, and they're going to

8 talk a little with us. I'm talking here as a

9 DOE guide, and not necessarily as a lawyer. 

10 So, our authority at the moment, for

11 negotiation purposes, is what it needs to be

12 to get to what we can work around.

13 So, we have these failures by

14 manufacturers to provide records. We have

15 failure to test any covered product or covered

16 equipment. In the course of testing, they'll

17 be tested improperly. Next slide. Delivery

18 gives some control over a feature in a covered

19 product to circumvent the requirements. So,

20 if you actually have something going on, some

21 doohickey in your product that, when you're

22 testing it, it turns off a valve, or turns on
Page 102

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a valve and makes it test different than it

2 actually will in the field. So, you can pass

3 the test, but you actually wouldn't operate in

4 that way. That's to stop folks from cheating.

5 So, failure of a manufacturer to

6 give me something, if I ask for it, as far as

7 testing, that'll be a prohibited act. Next

8 slide. Failure of manufacturer to allow me to

9 observe hhjtesting, if I ask you if I can go

10 watch your test. That's a prohibited act.

11 Distribution in commerce by a

12 manufacturer or private labeler of any new

13 product that is not in compliance with

14 applicable energy conservation standards. So,

15 that's the really important one. That's the

16 one that says, hey, listen, if it's not in

17 compliance, then you can't do that. So,

18 that's the one that we use every day for

19 people that make and sell things that are

20 noncompliant.

21 And, then, we have this one as

22 well. So, if we've told you it's not
Page 103

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 compliant and you keep selling it, we'd also

2 be charging money for that. It's really just

3 redundant to this. But it's very clear. If

4 we told you it's not compliant and you keep

5 selling it, then that's also a bad thing.

6 Next slide. Now, if you certify

7 to us what you're product is pointing out, and

8 you know you're lying to us, that's also a

9 prohibited act. And Congress gave us this one

10 regarding adapters for lighting. It's very

11 true for lighting. We're not going to spend

12 any time on this one.

13 Next slide. Go back real quick. 

14 Sorry. The interesting thing is this one

15 actually sent to distributors and retailers. 

16 So, it's the only prohibited act we have that

17 lists distributors and retailers. So, it's

18 the only prohibited act we have that lists

19 distributors or retailers as a party to the

20 prohibited act.

21 Next slide. And this last one was

22 very important for us today. For any
Page 104

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 manufacturer or private labeler, no one will

2 sell to a distributor, contractor or dealer

3 with knowledge that entity routinely violates

4 any regional standards. So, this one is in

5 play now. This is something that is in play

6 today.

7 So, manufacturers already have a

8 prohibited act that relates to them. So, they

9 have their own skin in the game here. So,

10 they have to worry about, what does this mean

11 for them? And, so, that's a thing we have to

12 talk more about in, of course, this

13 negotiation as well. So, this is the

14 prohibited act that's currently out there. 

15 Yes, Dave?

16 MR. CALABRESE: Dave at Daikin. 

17 The term knowledge actually is defined in the

18 statute. I don't know if you have it there. 

19 But it's helpful as I was looking through it

20 to understand, you know, how the Department

21 defines what knowledge is.

22 MR. RAWALD: Well, so, Congress
Page 105

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 has defined knowledge for us and they tell us

2 that "knowing" means, you know, you know or

3 should have known. So, essentially, if you,

4 in acting as a responsible manufacturer or

5 person who has responsibility in this instance

6 should know what the performance of your

7 product is, or you're willfully ignorant.

8 That's not good enough. You know, you should

9 know how your product performs and most folks

10 should because you're making the product, then

11 you're responsible for that, you're considered

12 to have knowledge under the law. Yes, Jordan?

13 MEMBER DORIA: I assume we're not

14 so fortunate to have Congress to define

15 routinely for us.

16 MR. RAWALD: This provision right

17 here was EISA at the same time as the regional

18 standards and, truly, we have to talk about

19 what that means, you know, what is the scope

20 of that. And I think the table's open here

21 for us to define what we think would be a

22 routine violation, for us to talk about where
Page 106

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the violation is. Let's talk about, you know,

2 what's going on here, and how we want to

3 handle these. Okay. So, that's a brief,

4 thumbnail sketch. Yes, Charlie?

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't know what

6 the slide number it was, but it was the one on

7 records retention and it's pretty clear where

8 you spell out what the manufacturer -- I think

9 it was Slide 12. There. Shall establish and

10 maintain routine records, blah, blah, blah,

11 blah, blah. Was that subject to a paperwork

12 reduction act?

13 MR. RAWALD: I think so. I'll

14 have to ask my lawyers. I don't know that

15 because I wasn't involved in that part of it. 

16 But I presume that anytime we have someone

17 retaining records, so it can produce

18 information to us, there's some PRA aspect to

19 it.

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Right.

21 MR. RAWALD: But I can't confirm

22 that to you. I'll have to talk to Eric and
Page 107

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 confer.

2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: That may be

3 something to also talk about.

4 MR. RAWALD: Well, it seems to me

5 that anything that we do here will have to go

6 through some sort of PRA approval process at

7 some point for collecting any information at

8 all, and it will apply when folks are to

9 retain information, possibly. So, I'll have

10 the lawyers go over that and we'll get back to

11 with our answer for the group. Maybe we can

12 have a PRA discussion at that time, and be

13 able to look at what the impact would be.

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I just was trying

15 to figure out --

16 MR. RAWALD: Sure.

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- records.

18 MR. RAWALD: And, of course, the

19 CVI, you know, because we have to have this

20 information as well. So, okay. So, that's

21 the final slide on enforcement. Any other

22 question about what we do to enforce things on
Page 108

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a national level? And the reason why it's

2 important is it helps you get a sense of,

3 well, what could we do here regionally. You

4 know? What can the Department offer? Yes,

5 Amy?

6 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Amy Shepherd,

7 AHRI. Has the Department ever pursued its

8 injunctive relief?

9 MR. RAWALD: Have we?

10 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Yes.

11 MR. RAWALD: So, we have the

12 ability to pursue our injunctive relief. We

13 have not been forced to do so that I'm aware

14 of. But we do have the authority to do

15 injunctions, so both for sale of noncompliant

16 products as well as for, you know, some people

17 would argue that the forcing of somebody to

18 appear in court with subpoena would also be

19 conducting those rights. So, we have that. 

20 We have not gone to enforcement at this time. 

21 Karen or Dave?

22 MR. CALABRESE: One last question. 
Page 109

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 The statute does provide for private right of

2 action. So, there could be, if the Agency or

3 Federal Government doesn't enforce the law,

4 there could be the possibility of a private

5 entity and/or the state, perhaps.

6 MR. RAWALD: That's a good point,

7 David. It's only regional policy, but the

8 statute does entitles the citizen to be

9 involved that way. So --

10 MR. EISNER: Is this limited to

11 the purchaser of the equipment, or anybody can

12 enforce it?

13 MR. RAWALD: It's not limited. 

14 It's not limited, so, any person. Chuck?

15 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck

16 White. So, could you tell me approximately

17 how many air conditioning policemen you have

18 to go out and look at installed systems and --

19 MR. RAWALD: That's a very good

20 question. Right. So, we don't have any

21 policemen. I mean there are no DOE special

22 agents. So, you know, we have the operation
Page 110

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we have. So, there's a lot of practical

2 issues to discuss in how we report this. Yes,

3 John?

4 MR. MELCHI: Yes. This is John

5 with Hardi. So, just looking at the statute

6 regarding subpoena, it appears that we can

7 request -- I apologize for not being more

8 organized here -- brand name and model number

9 and the energy or wattage ratings.

10 MR. RAWALD: I'm not sure where

11 you're looking.

12 MR. MELCHI: Sorry. I'm looking

13 at 42.97 -- 429.7, I'm sorry.

14 MR. RAWALD: Okay, 429.7.

15 MR. MELCHI: And it talks about,

16 as far as records and confidentiality. Those

17 are records that are not confidential in the

18 DOE's eyes. What is confidential, what

19 appears as confidential, and I guess I need

20 clarification on these records requests would

21 include serial numbers, correct?

22 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, every --
Page 111

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. MELCHI: That would be

2 confidential business information.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, we do

4 request confidential business information. 

5 But what we do is we entitle folks to give us

6 two copies, a redacted copy and a copy that's

7 not redacted, because there's some things I

8 need to know that are confidential.

9 And, on the FOIA, those things are

10 protected from release. So, we would possibly

11 go through protected information and, if it's

12 confidential, we keep it in confidence. But

13 we encrypt it, and do all the things on our

14 end to make sure that it isn't releasable. 

15 But we do request information that it

16 confidential for the Department's purposes.

17 MR. MELCHI: But that's not FOIA18 able by a third party?

19 MR. RAWALD: It will not be. We

20 would actually invoke a FOIA, you know,

21 exception that say we would not release that. 

22 We would confer with the person who gave us
Page 112

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that and say, hey, this is the information

2 we're requesting from you. You've told us

3 previously it's confidential. Do you still

4 agree it's confidential? And, then, we would

5 push back on releasing that information.

6 MR. MELCHI: Okay. And, then, the

7 second question would be just a process

8 question, as regards to the manufacturers. 

9 Does DOE often broadly subpoena records from

10 an entire industry, and say, we are

11 subpoenaing all members?

12 MR. RAWALD: That's not very

13 effective. So, I think no tool is effective

14 when it's so broad. And I'm very much for

15 trying to be effective and plan the goal when

16 I do things. So, we typically target

17 subpoenas both in content and also in who

18 we're targeting. So, under my knowledge,

19 which the enforcement program is still fairly

20 young --

21 MR. MELCHI: Yes.

22 MR. RAWALD: -- we have not
Page 113

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 subpoenaed an entire industry, and I don't

2 think that would be an effective means of

3 trying to accomplish an objective, either.

4 MR. MELCHI: Okay.

5 MR. RAWALD: Other questions? 

6 Okay. So, that takes me through the two

7 things that I promised to do this morning. 

8 So, I appreciate it. Do you guys want to do

9 a break at this point, or do you want to go

10 further along?

11 MR. EISNER: Break.

12 MR. RAWALD: Do you guys want to

13 go until 11:00?

14 (Simultaneous speaking.)

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 10:24 a.m. and

17 resumed at 10:49 a.m.)

18 MR. EISNER: One of the things we

19 talked about in yesterday's meeting was you

20 needed to think about overnight some of the

21 other things you want from the Department, so

22 we can more effectively begin talking about
Page 114

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 these subjects that you want to discuss in the

2 negotiation. Anybody want to start the

3 conversation on that?

4 MR. RAWALD: Yes. This is Doug. 

5 So, I guess the asking I had done to the group

6 was tell me what things you think are hurdles

7 that need to be answered before we can move

8 forward. And I, of course, don't think we

9 could do without those answers, but so I can

10 go back and make sure we're getting to those

11 answers we need. So there was a hope to go

12 back a last time and think about it a little

13 bit more so that we can come up with that list

14 of some sort.

15 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Anybody want to

16 start it off?

17 MR. LATTANZI: Matt Lattanzi with

18 Nordyne. So, we talked about these two

19 yesterday for R22, 13 SEER air conditioners in

20 the southern states after 1/1/2015. I think

21 we need an answer to that and then again the

22 definition of 14 SEER.
Page 115

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, and that --

2 MR. LATTANZI: Those two questions

3 would have just reiterating from yesterday.

4 MR. RAWALD: Right. And that, so

5 I want, I want to be able to allow a little

6 bit more on that so I can really get the

7 answer the group needs. So talk to me more

8 about the R22 issue. What is the issue that

9 you, as you see it?

10 MR. LATTANZI: I believe the

11 fundamental issue or the fundamental question,

12 and again it has ramifications in the market

13 prior to the enforcement date, is can a 13

14 SEER air conditioner manufactured after

15 January 1, 2015 be sold into the southern

16 states? A clear defining answer to that

17 question I feel would be very helpful.

18 MR. ROCKY: This is Brian Rocky,

19 Johnson Controls. It's the definition of is

20 it a component or a system, right? And

21 dry-charge units have been defined as a

22 component, and so the question is is that
Page 116

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 interpretation, that definition still valid

2 with the regional efficiency standards?

3 MR. RAWALD: Let's see first --

4 MR. LATTANZI: Steve Porter,

5 Johnstone Supply. I think it's all 13 SEER. 

6 It's any -- it's a 13 SEER outdoor condensing

7 unit be modified or added to to make 14 SEER

8 no matter whether it's dry-charged with 410A,

9 not charged, make -- if it makes 14 can that

10 be sold?

11 MR. RAWALD: Right.

12 MR. LATTANZI: But then a coil --

13 MR. ROCKY: Yeah, but then that is

14 two different questions. My question is it's

15 just as the rule reads today as a replacement

16 part, if a Blain 13 SEER air conditioner

17 replace a --

18 MR. LATTANZI: But we're saying

19 not matter what?

20 MR. ROCKY: Yeah, so --

21 (Simultaneous speaking)

22 MR. LATTANZI: Yes. The 13 SEER
Page 117

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 dry air conditioner that we sell today, can

2 that be sold into the South manufactured after

3 January 1, 2015?

4 MR. RAWALD: When you say air

5 conditioner, can you, can you bring it down to

6 --

7 MR. ROCKY: This is --

8 (Simultaneous speaking)

9 MR. ROCKY: This is Brian Rocky. 

10 So the discussion centers on the definition of

11 a replacement component and what, and whether,

12 and that supplies both A/C and heat pump, but

13 per the regional efficiency standards it's the

14 A/C, for the national standards the heat pump. 

15 It's a component as it's been defined is it

16 still legal to sell that component in the

17 southern states or in the areas for the

18 national for heat pump anywhere if it was a 13

19 SEER rated basic model heat pump?

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I'm

21 asking you some -- I'm not in here telling you

22 you have to break this down really so I can
Page 118

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 focus on the issue. So you're saying there's

2 a definition for a component currently. So as

3 a component, so is that definition in your

4 mind commensurate, you're talking about

5 national and cool condenser.

6 MR. ROCKY: Yes.

7 MR. RAWALD: We're talking only

8 about the condenser here. Is that the rule

9 we're focusing on?

10 MR. ROCKY: Yes.

11 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.

12 MS. MEYERS: And this is Karen

13 with Trane, just for additional background

14 when we quit manufacturing condensing units

15 with R22 and we went to 410A, the EPA defined

16 the condensing unit as a replacement component

17 which opened the door for manufacturers to be

18 able to ship dry units because the producers

19 could no longer supply us bulk R22 to our

20 facilities.

21 So you could still manufacture a

22 unit and just put like a nitrogen holding
Page 119

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 charge in there to keep the system sealed, and

2 then if your unit went out, cut the line set,

3 put on a new condensing unit and you would

4 charge it with jugs of refrigerant that were

5 still legal -- that are still legal to

6 purchase for service applications and it would

7 be charged in the field. So it was defined by

8 EPA as part of this refrigerant allocation

9 rule as a replacement component.

10 So it allowed dry R22 units to be

11 shipped. Now, DOE then came out and gave

12 guidance that in order to meet efficiency

13 standards that are in place, and this is when

14 13, the minimum nationally, said okay, you can

15 do that but you had to have had a 13 SEER

16 minimum rating with an R22 unit when it was

17 legal to build charged R22 units.

18 So DOE said yeah, that's okay, but

19 you had to have had a rating back when, and

20 provided certification test data and certified

21 that that unit met 13 SEER.

22 MR. RAWALD: And the concern is
Page 120

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that because you can't actually build an R22

2 unit you can't test it to see if it's a 14

3 SEER right now? Is that, is that a problem? 

4 Because there are a lot of test data that show

5 13 SEER, but how do we show 14 SEER? Is that

6 an issue or am I missing something?

7 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think it's a

8 secondary issue.

9 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So that is, is

10 that an issue of concern, that particular

11 piece?

12 MR. LATTANZI: The guidance that

13 --

14 MR. RAWALD: Name?

15 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt

16 Lattanzi at Nordyne. Was issued in January

17 11, 2012 by the Department, and I happen to

18 have it right in front of me. It was written

19 as a draft.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right.

21 MR. LATTANZI: To my knowledge it

22 was never finalized.
Page 121

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: That's correct.

2 (Simultaneous speaking)

3 MR. LATTANZI: What I'm saying is

4 under the request is if you finalize this

5 guidance it might right away raise, you know,

6 the standards that were in effect on January

7 1, 2010, which is when the refrigerant change

8 took effect. So it was the efficiency

9 standards that were in effect which were 13

10 SEER. So I think if we can get, request that

11 you go back and re-look at this and finalize

12 it and make it applicable to the regional

13 standards, we'll have the answer to our

14 questions.

15 MR. RAWALD: For the R22 draft.

16 MR. LATTANZI: For the R22, and I

17 think we mentioned this at length yesterday,

18 but I'll just repeat it, but for the purposes

19 of developing an enforcement policy we feel

20 it's important that this is one of the

21 questions that gets answered.

22 MR. RAWALD: Well, let's play
Page 122

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 around with this, so this is Doug here. What

2 are the implications of the R22 dry-shipped

3 issue for enforcement? How does that affect

4 our ability to develop an enforcement scheme. 

5 So I get to -- explain to me why this is so

6 important.

7 MS. MEYERS: Well, we need to

8 know, A, if it's legal to sell those units.

9 MR. RAWALD: Right, so there's the

10 compliance.

11 MS. MEYERS: But --

12 MR. RAWALD: Right. That's

13 important.

14 MS. MEYERS: And so we need to

15 know that answer.

16 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So that's

17 Karen, and so first to comply we know it, but

18 as far as our ability to design a way to

19 enforce standards that are regionally based,

20 how does the answer to the R22 question

21 interplay with our ability to do that? What

22 are we unable to do because we don't know an
Page 123

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 answer to that question?

2 MR. SACHS: Doug?

3 MR. RAWALD: Yes, Harvey.

4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I

5 think to answer that and I may step on some

6 toes, and I may get things wrong but it's a

7 risk I'll take, you have to look through the

8 other end of the telescope.

9 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

10 MR. SACHS: What does this issue

11 look like to the contractor and the consumer? 

12 That does get geeky for the contractor. If

13 I'm thinking at all about that R22 unit, it's

14 likely that it's a replacement. It's unlikely

15 that it's new construction.

16 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

17 MR. SACHS: It's likely that if I

18 can get away with doing this legally or

19 without inspection, I can save the customer a

20 whole lot of money by doing this because I

21 will not have to replace the evaporator or the

22 expansion valve that's sold normally as part
Page 124

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of that evaporator. Because those will, and

2 I won't have to worry about anything else. 

3 It's just a whole lot simpler installation. 

4 There's only one drawback. There ain't no way

5 in hell that that unit with that much older

6 evaporator that was designed for 10 SEER is

7 every going to perform at SEER 13, and I don't

8 care how big a condensing unit you put on it.

9 Well, maybe, maybe you could get

10 there. So that from our perspective on

11 national energy savings, until the price of

12 R22 gets very, very high the lowest cost

13 option is to make something that might be an

14 11 and a half SEER by doing that dry-ship R22

15 and charging it in the field, which California

16 experience suggests is not likely to be real

17 close to the proper charge anyway.

18 So is that a fair way of capturing

19 it from only a low-lying contractor

20 perspective?

21 MR. RAWALD: I think I'll look

22 toward Matt for an answer, so Matt?
Page 125

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. SACHS: Yeah, well, I waited

2 to shock him.

3 MR. RAWALD: Yeah. Sounds good.

4 MR. SACHS: Matt?

5 MR. RAWALD: Okay, good. Well,

6 we'll go to that definitely. So go to Matt

7 and then we'll go to Chuck as well.

8 MR. LATTANZI: Well, I guess I

9 feel like I agree with about 95% of what I

10 just heard from Harvey. I take exception to

11 the comments on not flushing the system or

12 changing the expansion valve. I think

13 normally you do have to change the TXV, and

14 the lubricants are different, so --

15 MR. SACHS: Sorry if I misstated

16 that.

17 MR. LATTANZI: But other than that

18 I think what I heard I'm in agreement. I can

19 support him in that.

20 MR. SACHS: If I can stay with R22

21 I'm avoiding those costs of changing the

22 lubricating oil and the expansion valve.
Page 126

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, right.

2 MR. SACHS: That's what I meant.

3 MR. LATTANZI: So that's -- okay,

4 maybe I misheard.

5 MS. NOLL: So is it also not

6 subject to the regional standard because it's

7 a component as defined by EPA? Is that the

8 other thing that's then --

9 MR. LATTANZI: Yeah, it's a

10 service part.

11 MS. NOLL: So it's a service part

12 so in the south we would barely be meeting 13

13 and if we did we would still be not combined

14 with the regional 14 SEER standard?

15 MR. SACHS: You would not be

16 meeting 13 in the average as installed case,

17 not because of anything that Matt said is

18 wrong, but because you will not be getting a

19 matched evaporating unit and a TXV or

20 equivalent to meter the refrigerant properly.

21 MS. NOLL: But because it's a

22 component it's not subject to, or as some
Page 127

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 people might be interpreting it. Is that

2 fair?

3 MR. LATTANZI: Yeah, that's fair.

4 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with

5 Rheem. It was probably never really

6 considered a component before until this EPA

7 thing, but, you know, if my compressor goes

8 out on my condensing unit I can change my

9 compressor. I'm putting in a new minimum

10 efficiency unit. If my fan blade goes out I

11 can change my fan blade, and, you know, those

12 are all service parts that you can do to

13 repair your unit. So is just replacing the

14 condensing unit considered a repair?

15 MR. RAWALD: Or is it an

16 installation?

17 MS. MEYERS: Or an installation?

18 MR. RAWALD: Right.

19 MS. MEYERS: So that's the

20 question. What, and we need to know that for

21 purposes of enforcement so we know whether we

22 can legally ship that unit or not and be in
Page 128

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 violate, you know, so that's why it's

2 important.

3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So it's like

4 here, what I'm hearing is, and I'm trying to

5 understand this issue the best way possible,

6 so if the question comes down to whether

7 putting in a replacement condensing unit,

8 which prior to the EPA issuing any guidance on

9 R22, would have been considered installing a

10 new air conditioner.

11 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.

12 MR. RAWALD: But in light of what

13 the EPA defined a condensing unit to be

14 because of the R22 issue, is putting in that

15 replacement condensing unit considered

16 installation according to the regional

17 standard, which de facto, according to what

18 Harvey's saying, would never actually be able

19 to meet a 14 SEER standard.

20 MS. MEYERS: Correct. Right.

21 MR. RAWALD: So you would never be

22 able to do this dry charging unit and replace
Page 129

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it with that. That would not work if that was

2 what we required. Is that the summary? 

3 Karen, you're nodding your head.

4 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I -- Gary, do

5 you agree?

6 MR. CLARK: Yes. Huh? Yes.

7 MS. MEYERS: I mean, I would agree

8 with that.

9 MR. RAWALD: I'm trying to

10 understand what the problem is.

11 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, it's very

12 quick.

13 MR. RAWALD: It's a good summary. 

14 MR. ROCKY: Well, we'll get back. 

15 I'll let Chuck have it in a second. So the

16 impact of this from the enforcement standpoint

17 gets back to the contractors really doing what

18 they can, but they're still going to drive to

19 what's easiest for them.

20 If the enforcement policy for the

21 regional efficiency standards drives to extra

22 paperwork, extra cost, submittal of data,
Page 130

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 whatever we come up with and they don't have

2 to do that for a dry-charge replacement,

3 they're going to move to the least issue,

4 least hassle solution for our customers who we

5 already know, our consumers, we're all part of

6 that, we want the least -- most effective,

7 immediate least cost solution as well.

8 MR. RAWALD: So what is that?

9 MR. ROCKY: So a dry-charge today,

10 depending on the overall market and you can

11 tell me if I'm wrong on the numbers, is

12 somewhere around 15, 20 percent of the total

13 volume of air conditioning.

14 MS. MEYERS: No, it's --

15 MR. ROCKY: But in the markets --

16 (Simultaneous speaking)

17 MR. RAWALD: Let's hear from Bryan

18 and we'll go to others.

19 MR. ROCKY: But in certain markets

20 it is more than 50 or 60 percent without a

21 doubt. But I think that AHRI numbers, we were

22 still, as an industry we were less than 20
Page 131

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 percent.

2 MS. MEYERS: I would disagree with

3 that.

4 (Simultaneous speaking)

5 MR. RAWALD: We'll keep on going. 

6 So Karen and Matt and Karim have all said they

7 disagree. John from Waxman says that he want

8 to talk about it some more, so it seems like

9 this is a real issue. But let's drill down to

10 the fact that the numbers are almost as

11 important to me than the actual issue.

12 MR. ROCKY: So again, if we're

13 trying to do the right things and have a

14 regional standard and we have an out for our

15 contractors that saves homeowners money as an

16 option versus installing a new system that

17 complies with the standard, we don't want to

18 drive them to doing that step that doesn't

19 save energy and doesn't provide the customers

20 what they paid for and doesn't meet the energy

21 savings requirements.

22 MR. RAWALD: So what I'm hearing
Page 132

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you saying, Bryan, is there's two pieces to

2 this puzzle, which is the R22 not only is

3 cheaper to buy itself as a replacement part

4 than installing a new system, and I hear that

5 as being part of it, but also if the effect is

6 that it's a replacement as opposed to an

7 installation the burden we place on the, on

8 whoever would be nonexistent for the

9 replacement so that would be tried in that

10 direction as well. There's two things here

11 going on.

12 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

13 MR. ROCKY: Yes.

14 MR. RAWALD: -- while we're

15 talking about it. Okay. Does everyone,

16 everyone I thought had an agreement. What do

17 contractors think on this, Chuck? You've been

18 waiting for a while.

19 MR. WHITE: Well, if money didn't

20 count it would be easy.

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

22 MR. WHITE: But the contractor
Page 133

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 lives in a market with market pressures. And

2 unless you're the only guy in town you don't

3 have a free hand to dictate how it's going to

4 happen. So from a historical perspective,

5 I've done air conditioning work for a long

6 time, and when I was a pup we changed

7 compressors all the time, and they're a pain

8 in the butt to change.

9 And they're prone to issues if you

10 didn't evacuate properly, you had a bad

11 solder, there's lots of opportunities for

12 callbacks, and a callback in a contractor's

13 life is death. So changing condensing units

14 you get a better warranty, you get all the new

15 parts, became the norm. And it costs more to

16 change a compressor, but not a lot and you've

17 got the warranty benefits. You've got some

18 other things, and so it became the norm to

19 change the condensing units.

20 We really stopped selling

21 compressors unless you had a really specific

22 case that you needed to change that
Page 134

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 compressor, changing units became the norm.

2 Then along comes the Department of Energy and

3 the Environmental Protection Agency and makes

4 rules to live by.

5 And granted even when you were

6 doing that there were probably better ways to

7 do it, but again, market pressures come to

8 bear. So a homeowner has three choices from

9 three contractors and you want to put in the

10 best of the best and you're out of the

11 ballpark. So you don't want to go back to

12 change compressors, but that's what happened.

13 410 comes into play, 22 goes away,

14 I can't use the evaporator for the 410 system

15 and in the early days we didn't even want to

16 use line sets. So now you're talking tearing

17 the line set out, take the coil out, change

18 the outside unit, things are physically

19 larger, a lot of complications related to

20 that, and complications equal one thing --

21 money.

22 So what it did was it said, well,
Page 135

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 okay, homeowner, this is what we have to do to

2 put this system in and do it right, this is

3 what we have to do. And they would say that's

4 a lot of money and you say, well, okay, we can

5 fix your unit by changing a component. I can

6 change the compressor.

7 So now I'm back to changing

8 compressors like I did 30 years ago, which was

9 not something any of us liked, but the market

10 pressures drive people to that. And not every

11 time. Certainly there were people out there

12 that wanted higher efficiency, wanted better

13 equipment, had the wherewithal of being able

14 to afford it, but there are a lot of times

15 where the dollar rules.

16 And so if I can change a fan

17 motor, if I can change a fan blade, if I can

18 change a compressor, shoot, I can buy a coil

19 I'll change the coil if it's got a hole in it. 

20 If I can change all the pieces of this unit

21 what's the difference if I change all the

22 pieces or I can buy the unit? So that was, I
Page 136

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 don't -- and I'm not supporting or -- that's

2 the mindset. That's what happened.

3 So most of us in the contracting

4 industry were really rather stunned when these

5 dry-charge units kind of popped up, and we

6 really didn't see that on the horizon or the

7 radar and just boom, there they are and some

8 people started using them.

9 And were we really thrilled about

10 it? Well, some people were. Some people

11 weren't. It's across the board and whether

12 you're the best contractor or the worst

13 contractor and you were, got 500 guys or

14 you've got two, you have it's across the board

15 what happens in the industry and I don't know. 

16 I've heard people rail against dry-charge. 

17 I've heard people say they're the greatest

18 thing since sliced bread. And I don't know

19 where I land on that, but --

20 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, I don't either,

21 but at the end of the day it's a lot, it's a

22 lot more affordable choice for the homeowner,
Page 137

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 like it or not it is. So --

2 MR. WHITE: And putting that in,

3 okay, I can't, I don't have a certified report

4 as to what Joe Homeowner's coil is with this

5 unit I brought out, but I will hazard that

6 it's more efficient than taking a compressor

7 and putting it in that 20-year-old machine.

8 Will it be for the AHRI standard? 

9 Will I meet the number? I don't know. I

10 mean, a lot of this talk is my uncle's

11 favorite expression, you measure it with a

12 micrometer and you mark it with the chalk and

13 you cut it with an axe.

14 It's true. We talk about, we talk

15 about the condensing unit, the coil and the

16 blower and there's so much more to it. I mean

17 the line set considerations, duct

18 considerations. There's a system is more than

19 just a couple pieces and good contractors look

20 at the system and try to do what's in the best

21 interest of the consumer, bearing in mind they

22 have to be able to pay for it, because I can't
Page 138

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 take money out of my pocket and buy air

2 conditioners for everybody in the room.

3 And the other result is I can't

4 afford a compressor. I can't afford your 14

5 SEER system. They're running down to the big

6 box store and buying three window units and

7 throwing them in the windows. How do you like

8 that for efficiency?

9 So there's my two cents worth.

10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Did you want to

11 talk about that?

12 MS. MEYERS: If I can?

13 MR. SURRENA: This may be an

14 opportunity for a big carrot or the incentive

15 to do something different. If there was an

16 incentive to go to the minimum efficiency

17 unit, put the whole thing in rather than to

18 just do the one part, that would net energy

19 efficiency. It would help the consumer and it

20 would take the contractor, at least give him

21 wiggle room on the box that he got put in, and

22 as you said, enforcement sometimes is a
Page 139

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 carrot. It's not necessarily a stick.

2 MR. WHITE: Yeah.

3 MR. SURRENA: This is the chance

4 for the carrot to run.

5 MR. WHITE: And that -- this is

6 Chuck White, again, I did mean to mention

7 that, that incentive programs really are

8 effective. They do resonate with consumers. 

9 It does help sell a project. I know there's

10 some thought out there that if I know I'm

11 going to get $500 back that's what I'm going

12 to give you the price of the job, but that's

13 not necessarily true.

14 It does give you some advantage

15 and it does help sell higher efficiency

16 products. But again, it's not selling the

17 base level. You're going up a level or two to

18 qualify for those incentives.

19 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,

20 ACCA, so as an association we've remained

21 agnostic on this issue. We have contractors

22 who like the direct charge units because for
Page 140

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 all the reasons that have been laid out. It

2 helps them keep the customer.

3 We have contractors who were

4 extraordinarily disappointed with the way

5 these came out with EPA and then with things

6 that happened afterwards because we spent a

7 lot of money, time, resources converting the

8 industry from 22 to 410A.

9 We haven't done a survey on this

10 in years, when we did a survey it was about

11 48/52 in support of getting rid of the

12 dry-charge units, but that was years ago. 

13 Things have changed. The price of the gas

14 itself has increased and that may be something

15 that's discouraging people from sort of taking

16 the low road versus the high use.

17 What I wanted to say, though, also

18 is I think we should be a little bit careful

19 here though, because I don't know if we want

20 to regulate servicing.

21 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay? Because if
Page 141

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 servicing a part, and if this becomes a

2 component, if that triggers a compliance

3 requirement, we may be over-complicating this. 

4 And the sweet spot may be defining this as a

5 component, a condensing unit.

6 That's what we're talking about is

7 a condensing unit, but not the compressor, but

8 not the fan, but not the blower, or some of

9 the other loud garbage you use. So I just put

10 that out there not to be a downer but let's be

11 careful about what we're embarking on here.

12 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so be

13 careful that that, you know, our constraint is

14 that we're not defining the condensing unit or

15 coil here in this group, but it's important

16 for us to know the, what the part is doing as

17 it is because it has implications you guys are

18 saying on the enforcement.

19 What I'm hearing you saying is

20 that it has implications especially because of

21 the incentives this is going to create for

22 installers to do a certain thing and that will
Page 142

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 add implications about how much other burden

2 we want to put upon them as part of the

3 enforcement process.

4 MR. MCCRUDDEN: But let's be clear

5 about those incentives.

6 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

7 MR. MCCRUDDEN: The verb incentive

8 and the noun incentive. Utility programs have

9 incentives. This is all market transformation

10 and this is money that goes to the homeowner

11 to do a, to do a little bit better.

12 MR. RAWALD: Right.

13 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't think --

14 maybe we're doing that wrong. I don't think

15 we have a pot of money to play with here but

16 --

17 (Simultaneous speaking)

18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- to do

19 incentives. So I don't, I think we may be

20 somewhat limited here. But we had a similar

21 conversation when we were talking about the

22 framework documents, and we were talking about
Page 143

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the waiver. I'm not suggesting a waiver, but

2 I'm sort of saying we find that there may,

3 that there is a threshold to convince people

4 to do better or to move toward the 90% versus

5 the 80%, but again, that's true of a different

6 subject, but we did talk about that back then. 

7 And I don't know if there is a solution here.

8 MR. RAWALD: So --

9 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So we're talking

10 about how, getting more guidance in the R22

11 will be important at least from the contractor

12 installer, dictating what's wrong with them. 

13 How does it affect the manufacturer in

14 deciding what the manufacturer's role should

15 be in the enforcement process? So we want to

16 know how it's impacting our goal to look at

17 the manufacturer piece here.

18 I understand that we,

19 manufacturers want to comply. It's a

20 compliance question. It's important, but for

21 a point we will try and develop an effective

22 enforcement plan, what are we not able to do
Page 144

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 from a manufacturer point of view because we

2 don't have an answer to the R22 issue?

3 MR. CLARK: This is Gary from

4 Goodman. I guess the way I think about it is

5 it's as simple as us accepting an order for 13

6 SEER Tri-charge R22 units from a distributor,

7 from a distributor in Florida, because that

8 area we talked about, you know, we're not

9 knowingly supposed to do things. And so at

10 that point we wouldn't know we're shipping it

11 to them and are we compliant or not compliant?

12 MR. HOURAHAN: Okay. You're

13 selling it to them and you're thinking as it's

14 a replacement.

15 MR. RAWALD: And that's Glenn

16 again.

17 MR. HOURAHAN: That was Glenn

18 again, yes.

19 MR. CLARK: We don't know anything

20 about it. We may or may not know that, but we

21 do know that we're shipping it to a southern

22 location where there's a 14 SEER minimum
Page 145

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 efficiency standard in effect.

2 MR. HOURAHAN: Right.

3 MR. RAWALD: And that goes to

4 class. I mean, it goes to what your

5 obligation is under the law, but as far as us

6 developing a way of monitoring, investigating

7 and sanctioning or awarding behavior, how does

8 that, how does the answer to that be compliant

9 or not? How does that affect our goals. 

10 Yeah, Amy?

11 MS. SHEPHERD: Yeah. I have a

12 question about I guess your perception of

13 compliance and enforcement, because what

14 you're enforcing is compliance with the law.

15 MR. RAWALD: Sure.

16 MS. SHEPHERD: So when you're

17 saying I understand how it affects compliance

18 but not enforcement, can you clarify that a

19 little bit?

20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So I think it

21 affects enforcement. What it doesn't affect

22 in my mind or where I'm missing the pieces,
Page 146

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 how can I develop a framework for following up

2 for investigating complaints about compliance

3 and for rewarding people that do comply and

4 for sanctioning those that don't comply, how

5 does the actual thing we're forcing them to

6 comply with, how is the requirement necessary

7 for me to do -- why is it a stopping point?

8 MS. SHEPHERD: Because we --

9 MR. RAWALD: I mean, I'm trying to

10 discuss the framework of what that would be. 

11 How do I investigate how to reward and

12 sanction that?

13 MS. SHEPHERD: Because I think you

14 have to look at the behavior. I mean, the

15 enforcement isn't triggered until you don't

16 have compliance.

17 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

18 MS. SHEPHERD: So I think the

19 question that we're hearing is is this

20 compliant? I mean, is this, is this going to

21 -- is this going to be something that triggers

22 an enforcement action?
Page 147

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

2 MS. SHEPHERD: I think that's the

3 central question. You have to start with what

4 is, what is the actual, what is the activity

5 that will trigger the enforcement action? And

6 then how, what information does the department

7 need in order to determine whether people are

8 complying. So I don't --

9 MR. RAWALD: Right. So you're

10 saying -- what I'm hearing you saying is we

11 wouldn't know what to investigate because we

12 wouldn't know what the scope of the, of the

13 offense would be, so in order to decide what

14 investigative tools we need we need to

15 understand what the offense would be? Is that

16 what you're saying?

17 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, for this

18 particular issue I think that yes, I mean,

19 that -- I think, what I'm hearing the question

20 is is this something that will trigger an

21 enforcement action?

22 MR. RAWALD: Yes.
Page 148

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. SHEPHERD: Is this, is this an

2 activity that DOE is going to enforce? And if

3 it is, then I think you have a conversation of

4 how would you determine the tools you need to

5 enforce that and everything. But if we don't,

6 and but if the answer to that first question

7 is no, then you don't need to have a

8 conversation about enforcement.

9 MR. EISNER: What I'm hearing is

10 you're looking at it after they've taken the

11 action of shipping the item. They want to

12 know before they ship it whether it's a

13 violation.

14 MR. RAWALD: I guess the thing,

15 what I'm, what I'm saying is, and what I want

16 to make sure is because everyone seemed to be

17 at least a consensus that this is a very

18 important issue that without it being solved

19 we can't even develop a framework. And so

20 what I'm trying to really understand the

21 problem is, and I'll analogize to, say, the

22 criminal context.
Page 149

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 When I say I need to know if

2 stabbing someone with a knife is a crime or

3 not. If we know that the police are going to

4 look at, look at, look into and everyone says

5 someone who was injured, if they're willing to

6 talk to the forensic pathologist about what

7 happened, if they're going to find out if the

8 person's alive or dead. So those are things

9 that they can do to kind of investigate, and

10 they will, of course, to investigate alleged

11 enforcement without knowing actually what the

12 actual thing that was done wrong was.

13 So I think we can talk about

14 different things that we can do to investigate

15 or to monitor compliance without necessarily

16 having to answer this question. At least

17 that's my sense of it, but if I'm wrong, I see

18 the whole room saying, no, no, we really need

19 to know the answer to this.

20 That's fine, and I, and I want to

21 make sure I covered it, but hey, listen, we're

22 stuck here, and I can't, no matter what I do,
Page 150

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I can't get in the buzz because they won't do

2 anything else until we get an answer here.

3 MS. SHEPHERD: I just have one

4 final thing. Was it, I think one thing that

5 we've heard a lot about is the use of

6 information, too, as an enforcement tool. 

7 Information about what? I mean, if you don't

8 know what the activity was that triggered the

9 enforcement, how can you know what information

10 you actually do have?

11 MR. RAWALD: No. I think it's a

12 very fair point. I think it's a very fair

13 point. And Karen and Glen and then Gary all

14 put up their hands up, so --

15 MS. MEYERS: So for me it's as

16 simple as this.

17 MR. RAWALD: That's Karen Meyers.

18 MS. MEYERS: How do I develop an

19 enforcement plan when I don't know what I'm

20 supposed to be enforcing?

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

22 MS. MEYERS: I think it goes to
Page 151

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the dry R22. I think it goes to what is a 14

2 SEER. And this is also very, very

3 time-sensitive because, for our customers. I

4 had a call while we were on break. Do you

5 have an answer on the dry R22 issue? That

6 was, I'm going to see a customer. He's

7 wanting to know what can I tell him? So yeah,

8 it -- and we can't, we have to forecast. We

9 have to plan. We have to order components. 

10 We have to do all that which is months of

11 doing that.

12 And so it becomes a very critical

13 answer to the marketplace. So as Chuck was

14 referring to in his earlier comment, you know,

15 a lot of behavior is driven off, you know, the

16 market forces. And so I can't, I can't --

17 it's difficult for me to provide input into a

18 successful enforcement plan if I don't know

19 what it is I'm supposed to be enforcing.

20 MR. RAWALD: I understand that

21 you're frustrated.

22 MS. MEYERS: But that's it, that's
Page 152

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it for me.

2 MR. RAWALD: Yeah. And I'm just

3 trying, I'm trying to do my best to go back

4 here and see if we can stand up and I don't

5 know where we're coming from. So but what I

6 hear the main question being on the R22 at

7 this point is does insulation of a condenser

8 that is dry ship with R22 to be added later,

9 is that considered installation under regional

10 standards or is that simply a replacement part

11 and therefore would not be subject to the

12 regional standards.

13 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

14 MR. RAWALD: But that seems to me

15 to be the central question that we need to

16 answer.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: And this is Gary. 

18 So to go to the next part of your thinking,

19 which is how does that affect general rules we

20 might develop around enforcement? The answer

21 to that question is relatively simple.

22 The unit may or may not be shipped
Page 153

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 from the manufacturer to a distributor and to

2 the south that's the enforcement question. 

3 And there would presumably be some reporting

4 that would let you know whether or not that

5 happens. So the enforcement question is a

6 much smaller part of the question than what

7 the requirement is. That's a much larger part

8 of the issue.

9 MS. NOLL: So, Liz Noll, NRDC, so

10 if we set aside to asking two questions, why

11 can't we, as Doug is suggesting, continue to

12 move forward on what are the pieces that the

13 parties are going to be required to do

14 regardless of whether the R22 is or is not a

15 compliant piece?

16 So I mean, we could, we could move

17 forward under the assumption that it is

18 noncompliant and say, okay, manufacturers, I

19 mean, because that is, that is strictly on

20 whether or not you are going to be continuing

21 manufacturing and shipping those units, but

22 what is the -- going to be required of you
Page 154

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 under any piece?

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Those units will

3 still be legal in the north.

4 MR. RAWALD: That's Gary.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm sorry. Those

6 units will still be legal in the north and so

7 they'll still be in production. So there's no

8 question about that and, you know, Doug, back

9 to your, you know, knife analogy, just to kind

10 of put a little color around at least where

11 I'm coming from, we experience a lot of

12 situations as a manufacturer where there are

13 terrible things that happen in the field that

14 we have had nothing to do with. But we still

15 run into legal situations. It goes from the

16 homeowner through the DA back to the

17 distributor and it lands in the manufacturer's

18 lap a lot.

19 And so that's, you know, I

20 understand what you're saying, but it, things

21 in our world as a manufacturer seem to have

22 this string attached to it, and it always
Page 155

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 comes pulled back right to our laps. And so

2 that's where the concern is. I understand

3 what you're saying, but, you know, our

4 experience has been it comes back and finds us

5 every time.

6 MR. RAWALD: So but I think it's,

7 and this is Doug, I think it's a right

8 discussion we can have later on today about

9 where does manufacturer liability end

10 reasonably?

11 Where can we really put the end of

12 it? And I think it's a question we have

13 regardless of the R22 issue. I think it's

14 something we can talk about here and it's then

15 we could at least develop a little more here. 

16 So Andy wants to talk about it, too.

17 I think I have a good grasp of it,

18 I think, from people who are nodding their

19 heads and seems like they at least understand. 

20 So anything else you want to add, Tim? You

21 had your hand up so I'll give you a chance to

22 do this.
Page 156

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. ROCKY: Well, it's crazy, so

2 --

3 MR. RAWALD: Well, I can certainly

4 talk if you don't want to.

5 MR. ROCKY: Yeah.

6 MR. RAWALD: So --

7 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. My

8 question I guess is where does this leave

9 labeling for the R22 dry shipped units? I

10 don't know what the practice is today and I

11 don't know, you know, what the practice will

12 be January 1st, but I think it's a subsidiary

13 question to what is going to be required here.

14 MR. RAWALD: That's all. Does

15 anybody have an idea? Have you guys thought

16 about that? Like will you --

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't think that

18 the label is, this is Charlie at ACCA, I don't

19 think the label is reflective of the gas that

20 it's intended to be used for.

21 MR. RAWALD: That's correct.

22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: It's just a
Page 157

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 performance.

2 MR. BALLO: But the label is still

3 making a representation about the SEER --

4 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Sure.

5 MR. BALLO: -- performance of the

6 unit with the --

7 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Well, yeah.

8 (Simultaneous speaking)

9 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Don't want that

10 one.

11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with

12 AHRI. The EPA is requiring you label that for

13 oncoming.

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Oh.

15 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with

16 Allied. The current practice on R22 is it

17 only has one rating. It doesn't have a

18 plethora of ratings. It has one rating so,

19 you know, under the guise of the Energy Guide

20 label it'll have one rating. It will have the

21 bar of what's available in the market, but it

22 won't have the range for that unit.
Page 158

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: But there are, there

2 were 14 SEER up and could be 14 SEER dry

3 products. Okay. There are some R22

4 containers that might be able to do this for

5 us.

6 MR. WINNGINHAM: And again, this

7 is Dave at Allied. When we transitioned from

8 R22 to R410A, there were products, single

9 speed product that were above 13 SEER. The

10 reason that those aren't prevalent in the

11 market today is because they were more

12 expensive than a 13 SEER product.

13 And in a replacement situation as

14 has been outlined here, you know, people are

15 going to go to the lowest common denominator

16 and manufacturers haven't chosen to actively

17 market 14 SEER products to date. But that

18 could change.

19 MR. RAWALD: And I put words

20 probably in your mouth, so I think you might

21 want to jump in there.

22 MR. SACHS: All right. This is
Page 159

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Harvey. Just for background, the SEER 13

2 transition as I recall was December 1 of 2000

3 -- January 1, 2006. Now it's February 20th --

4 it's February 23rd. February 23 I can --

5 MR. RAWALD: That was Harvey.

6 MR. SACHS: But essentially 8-1/2

7 years ago. The phase out of R22 was early

8 2010. I'll cover my bets there. So the point

9 would be that the R22 equipment we were

10 informed of I believe by AHRI that the

11 shipment weighted average at the time of just

12 before the transition to SEER 13 was about 11. 

13 So there were very few very high efficiency

14 units during the SEER 10 world, but there were

15 some.

16 But where I'm going with that is

17 that DOE might logically argue that shipping

18 the dry charge R22 unit to a southern

19 distributor or a distributor selling one to a

20 southern contractor is presumptive evidence

21 that this will not be a compliant product as

22 installed in a SEER 14 region.
Page 160

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I suspect that if we went back to

2 the AHRI tables, and I'm really asking this as

3 a question for you, at the time that there

4 were very few models. And what we're talking

5 about is an average life of air conditioners,

6 the median life is well over a decade, so

7 almost everything that's had its condensing

8 unit fail is going to be a pre-SEER 13 for the

9 next couple of years, a pre-SEER 13 R22 unit.

10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And I think

11 we've spent a lot of time on the R22, and I

12 think I really have a good grasp of the issue

13 at the moment so what we need to go back to

14 and get an answer on. So we'll work on that.

15 Any final attacks on there from

16 the troops? Matt had at least one other issue

17 we have to talk about, so, and that was how

18 you tell a 14, right? That was the second

19 issue you brought up initially?

20 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.

21 MR. RAWALD: Yeah. And that's a

22 separate issue.
Page 161

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. LATTANZI: Right.

2 MR. RAWALD: So once -- let's move

3 to that. So how do you tell a 14? So that

4 seems pretty, let's talk more about that. 

5 What does that mean? Matt?

6 MR. LATTANZI: Well, without

7 taking a position at this point --

8 MR. RAWALD: Right.

9 MR. LATTANZI: -- I'll try and lay

10 out what I feel the question is and others can

11 jump in. But I feel the question is again it

12 comes down to 14 SEER air conditioners in the

13 South specifically, what defines that product? 

14 And today a single stage air conditioner

15 that's 13 SEER is defined as 13 SEER by the

16 coil only rating. So I feel the question is

17 what's that definition in the regional

18 standards world for a 14 SEER air conditioner

19 in the southern region?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would --

21 MR. LATTANZI: And please others

22 elaborate a little further?
Page 162

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I engage here?

2 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, Ashley can

3 engage. That's not a problem.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why would it

5 change?

6 MR. LATTANZI: Good question. 

7 This is Matt. I don't know what, well, I

8 don't feel it's defined. If we look at the

9 Energy Guide label as laid out by the FTC, it

10 shows a range in a southern market that

11 includes 13, but maybe I've got this wrong,

12 but please clarify.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So well, and I'll

14 ask you a question before I give an answer. 

15 I'm going to reserve to you --

16 MR. RAWALD: Right, and I think

17 Ashley what you're asking is, so we, everyone

18 agrees with the definition as far as what 13

19 SEER would be defined by the coil only

20 testing, right? So the question is why would

21 we presume that it would be different in a

22 regional context? And Karen, you had an
Page 163

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 answer?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just one

3 second. To follow on with that, coil only

4 doesn't have meaning as it exists just a 13

5 SEER unit. A coil only unit is a type of unit

6 based on how it's shipped. Not on the label

7 itself, so why would it matter all of a sudden

8 because it's a 13 SEER ratable?

9 MR. RAWALD: And Ashley, am I

10 speaking out of turn? It says the coil only

11 significance is for a means of testing, right,

12 for determining the rating?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, rating --

14 MR. RAWALD: So that's why it's

15 significant. 

16 MR. AMRANE: Well, that's fine,

17 but still the question is you might have the

18 coil only rating at 13 but you can still

19 achieve 14 with other things and I think that

20 according to FTC that's perfectly legal.

21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And so I don't

22 want to go into what FTC has said about them. 
Page 164

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I'm not, we're not well-versed in that, so I

2 don't want to go into that, but my point of

3 view, so the question Ashley asked is why

4 should the regional context be different than

5 what the definition we have in place? And

6 Karen had an answer she thought.

7 MS. MEYERS: So I think the

8 confusion comes up in two areas. The

9 manufacturer is responsible for the rating. 

10 The 14 SEER is effective with the

11 installation, and the Energy Guide label shows

12 that that could go on a condensing unit and

13 the example and the labeling rule shows could

14 be 13 to 14.2. So to me that outdoor unit

15 could be legally sold anywhere in the United

16 States depending upon what it's installed

17 with. So how do we as, you know, and this is,

18 really I think probably affects OEMs the most,

19 we don't know what it's being installed with. 

20 But we are responsible for the rating. So I

21 think that's where the whole confusion, I

22 don't --
Page 165

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: So Karen, is your --

2 your question isn't how do you test versus a

3 coil only test or a blower test?

4 MS. MEYERS: No. We're not saying

5 --

6 (Simultaneous speaking)

7 MR. RAWALD: The question really

8 is is okay, we have a range of ratings and are

9 we are going to be held responsible for if

10 somebody -- we're selling it at 13 and 14.2

11 and the guy that decides to install it in a

12 region with the coils that make it operate

13 below 14, we didn't know that. That's the

14 question.

15 MS. MEYERS: And that's what sets

16 the whole thing for manufacturer.

17 MR. RAWALD: But I guess the whole

18 thing we were going on this so I want to make

19 sure I understand the question. So Harvey?

20 MR. SACHS: So it's --

21 MR. RAWALD: Harvey is talking

22 here. He's chomping at the bit.
Page 166

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 (Simultaneous speaking)

2 MR. SACHS: It gets better and I

3 think I'm, I could be confused, but here's why

4 it gets better. The ratings, the test method

5 is pretty indifferent to the ability to remove

6 humidity, the latent heat capacity, not

7 completely but pretty much so. Now, if I have

8 a smaller coil, a smaller evaporator with the

9 same air flow and the same condensing unit,

10 I'll wring out more moisture and leave drier

11 air. I'll avoid the cold clammies.

12 So I have an incentive to give a

13 southern customer, a Southeastern customer

14 more comfort by using a smaller evaporator,

15 but it's unlikely to get as high a SEER rating

16 as if I use a large evaporator.

17 MR. RAWALD: What is --

18 (Simultaneous speaking)

19 MR. CLARK: You want a big, big

20 evaporator.

21 MR. RAWALD: And that's got --

22 MR. SACHS: I want a big
Page 167

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 evaporator at SEER 14.

2 MR. CLARK: No, no, no. If you're

3 just talking about humidity you want to remove

4 humidity. You want the biggest evaporator you

5 can get.

6 MR. SACHS: But other --

7 MR.CLARK: -- with the lowest air

8 flow.

9 MR. SACHS: With the lowest air

10 flow, but I was thinking, I'm sorry, I was

11 thinking in terms of a fixed speed.

12 MR. CLARK: Relatively speaking

13 the system that you described it will not be

14 good at removing humidity in the South.

15 MR. RAWALD: And I think Dave

16 wanted in at this point, too.

17 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave. 

18 It's really it's what evaporator temperature

19 that you run.

20 MR. SACHS: Right.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. That's,

22 and Harvey can be right and Gary can be right.
Page 168

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 (Simultaneous speaking)

2 MR. SACHS: No, I mean, this is

3 what I do for a living.

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: There are, it's

5 one evaporator temperature that you use and

6 that you run it at, okay? And you can get

7 that by running air flow up and down or you

8 can get it by running coil size up and down. 

9 Okay? But the size of the evaporator has a

10 definite impact on the capacity that you get

11 out and the efficiency.

12 MR. PORTER: But temperature being

13 equal, coil size.

14 MR. RAWALD: And that's Steve

15 Porter.

16 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter. 

17 It's the coil, right?

18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah, you will be

19 at more capacity --

20 MR. PORTER: Yes.

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: You will get more

22 capacity with a larger coil but in order to
Page 169

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 maintain that S over T you're going to have to

2 run a lower air flow.

3 MR. PORTER: Right.

4 MR. SACHS: So the bottom line for

5 the lawyers in the room is it's complicated.

6 MR. RAWALD: And I -- this is

7 Doug. So I get that, but the question Karen

8 posed is different than the question I thought

9 from hearing yesterday.

10 MR. SACHS: Right.

11 MR. RAWALD: So the question I'm

12 hearing from Karen is that we have a label

13 that has a range, and so we as the

14 manufacturer are putting it out there into the

15 world with this range, acknowledging the fact

16 that it may depending on the coil that it

17 won't be compliant when it's installed. And

18 so we don't want to be responsible for that. 

19 That's what I hear you saying.

20 MS. MEYERS: See that --

21 MR. RAWALD: Going with the scope

22 of this group, that seems to be the question
Page 170

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 for this group to decide. Never mind the

2 question that DOE is looking at after this

3 group. The group needs to decide where does

4 the manufacturer liability end in the context

5 of what you can control? I need to hear that. 

6 We need to discuss that. I think that's a

7 fair discussion.

8 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter of

9 Johnstone Supply. She has the question

10 absolutely right.

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

12 MR. PORTER: In our opinion.

13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Rick? And so

14 Dave, you had your hand up, too?

15 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, it's the

16 same question but just to elaborate, I mean,

17 you can have an outdoor condenser that may

18 have four, three or four, maybe five different

19 add-on programs. One is what is the most

20 commonly sold.

21 But then there can be thousands of

22 permutations of, I've got air handler matches
Page 171

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 and those same coils with a plethora of

2 different furnaces that you can get a 13 SEER

3 system you could drive it up to 15 or above.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not unless you

5 offer for sale those combinations.

6 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's the

8 difference. So you can't just, you understand

9 the difference between a coil only test

10 requirement and the blower coil requirement?

11 MR. WINNINGHAM: Absolutely.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can't just

13 take a coil only test and test it with a more

14 efficient blower to get a higher number and

15 sell it only as a coil only unit. We all

16 understand that?

17 MR. WINNINGHAM: I understand

18 that.

19 MR. SACHS: Yes. We do.

20 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I mean

22 that's pretty clear, right? That's pretty
Page 172

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 clear in our test procedures is that coil only

2 unit when it's going to be installed as a coil

3 only unit has to use the coil only test. And

4 you don't get the benefit of a more efficient

5 blower and the SEER rating when using a coil

6 only test.

7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. This is

8 Dave.

9 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

10 MR. WINNINGHAM: But the, but the

11 Energy Guide label shows that entire path and

12 it is a valid rating.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you, it's a

14 valid rating only if it's a rating at all to

15 begin with. And it can't be a rating at all

16 to begin with if you never sell and install

17 that system with a, as a blower coil unit.

18 MS. MEYERS: I'm confused.

19 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So Ashley's

20 asking a different question.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This is not

22 your question.
Page 173

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. MEYERS: Okay.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how you

3 determine, purely how you determine rating.

4 MS. MEYERS: So let me ask you

5 this question. Let's take regional standards

6 off the table.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It's a much

8 easier without them.

9 MS. MEYERS: So you have a

10 national standard. We all rate our products

11 to the national standard which means that you

12 have to rate it based upon a coil only rating.

13 MR. SACHS: For a single stage air

14 conditioner.

15 MS. MEYERS: Single stage air

16 conditioner. Would you agree with that?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

18 MS. MEYERS: So therefore we know

19 that we cannot manufacture anything that can

20 get less than the federal minimum unless it's

21 got a coil only high sales volume tested

22 combination which is defined in the rating
Page 174

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 procedure. So it's easy for us to determine

2 from a manufacturer if what we're selling is

3 legal or not.

4 When it comes to 14 are we, one of

5 my questions is if you are going to sell that

6 condensing unit in the South, does the same

7 rating procedure apply in that it has to have

8 a coil only rating that gets 14? It is not

9 based upon how the unit is installed, which

10 could mean that it could get 14.8 or 14.2.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or something

12 lower.

13 MS. MEYERS: Or something -- yeah,

14 to me should the legal, the minimum

15 requirement for a condensing unit to be

16 shipped in the South, does it have to get the

17 coil only rating of 14 and not a 13 SEER coil

18 only rating that would, is, if it's installed

19 with an ECM-equipped blower get 14.2.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: In the field.

21 MS. MEYERS: In the field.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a different
Page 175

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 question.

2 MS. MEYERS: But that's the

3 question we --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they're two

5 different questions.

6 MS. MEYERS: But that's actually,

7 you know, what do we do from a manufacturer's

8 perspective?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a test

10 procedure question.

11 MS. MEYERS: So I have this unit,

12 I have two condensing units. One has a coil

13 only rating of 13.0. If I put that unit in

14 the field with an ECM-equipped air moving

15 device, furnace, air handler, whatever, it can

16 get 14. So I don't know how it's going to be

17 installed, but it can in fact get a 14 SEER. 

18 Can I ship that unit to the south?

19 MR. LATTANZI: Well, can it be

20 installed in the South with that air mover and

21 be a legal system?

22 MS. MEYERS: Or I have this other
Page 176

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 condensing unit that gets a 14.0 coil only

2 rating. I'm rating it, you know, that's the

3 minimum it will achieve is 14.0. Is that the

4 only unit, I mean, it could get up to 15 with,

5 if it's installed with an ECM-equipped air

6 moving device.

7 Is that the only unit I can ship

8 to the South because I know the minimum that

9 it can get is 14, whereas the 13 can I ship

10 that to the South? The only way it's going to

11 meet the minimum is if it is installed with an

12 ECM-equipped air moving device.

13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. I think I

14 understand the scope of your question now. I

15 think, Karen, you've done a really remarkably

16 good job of explaining the issue. And so I

17 think what Ashley and I need to go back and

18 talk to our folks and make sure that we have

19 a very good answer for you. I think this is

20 really helpful.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have to.

22 MS. MEYERS: Well, the reason we
Page 177

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 have the rating is --

2 (Simultaneous speaking)

3 MR. RAWALD: I don't have an

4 answer for you but I'm asking you for to give

5 us time for us to talk about it before we

6 actually give an answer.

7 MS. NOLL: Can this --

8 MR. RAWALD: So the answer is --

9 MS. MEYERS: Is that in or out of

10 our scope, right?

11 MR. RAWALD: So I think that some

12 of this question is within the scope of this

13 group, and some of this question may not be,

14 and so I want to make sure that Ashley and I

15 come to an accord about what we're going to

16 say here and make sure that everybody knows --

17 I don't want to ask anyone to come back. I

18 want to give you good information.

19 MS. MEYERS Okay.

20 MR. RAWALD: So I understand the

21 issue though very well now. This is very

22 helpful. So I know you're chomping at the bit
Page 178

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to give me answers, but luckily we are near

2 lunch.

3 And so Matt has his hands up. 

4 Chuck has his hands up. Everyone wants to

5 talk.

6 MR. LATTANZI: Well, I just want

7 to, and I think it was already said. I just

8 want to make sure. But what's driving the

9 ambiguity here in question is the FTC

10 promulgated rule because within that rule is

11 an example of an Energy Guide label that

12 allows that 13 SEER unit that makes 14 with an

13 ECM indoor to be installed in the South.

14 MR. RAWALD: I get that. I know

15 that.

16 MR. LATTANZI: I wasn't sure if

17 that was clear.

18 MR. RAWALD: No, I captured that. 

19 I thought that the 13 to 14.2 was meant to,

20 hey, this could be installed in the North and

21 anyway but it could only be sold in the South

22 if it had this particular thing, the coil has
Page 179

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to match with that rating. That's how the

2 label reads right now. I get that concern

3 from the label. I do understand that.

4 MR. EISNER: And in their document

5 do they explain anything about the label and

6 what it means in terms of where it can be

7 sold? Or did they just put an example of the

8 label?

9 MR. RAWALD: No, the label itself

10 says it can be sold in these regions as long

11 as it's paired with a coil that gets to this

12 number. That's what causes their

13 consternation.

14 It says here is the number, and it

15 says if you pair with it with a coil that gets

16 this number it's legal and it can't. It's

17 not. So it actually implies it could be sold

18 in a region even though it's below that with

19 other, with certain coils.

20 MR. LATTANZI: Right. To further

21 amplify that, it shows the range of 12 to 14.2

22 MR. RAWALD: No, I get it. And
Page 180

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we've put out three units so I know exactly

2 what you're talking about.

3 MR. LATTANZI: Okay.

4 MR. RAWALD: Harvey?

5 MR. SACHS: Last year some of the

6 manufacturers of water heaters including

7 Karen's organization and NRECA and a number of

8 other people got together to talk about

9 possible waivers that would allow the sale of

10 grid connected and grid enabled larger systems

11 water heaters after new water heater rule

12 takes effect.

13 One of the proposals that was

14 booted about was one that would allow the sale

15 under specified conditions and specific

16 warnings and yadda, yadda, yadda.

17 But the relevant thing here, which

18 I'm not advocating but offering as part of the

19 mix of possible solutions was a label on all

20 the marketing information on the water heater

21 itself on its box that simply said this thing

22 is legal only in conjunction with an
Page 181

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 appropriate utility control program, and

2 indeed its capacity has been controlled so

3 that it will not offer full capacity unless

4 it's been activated by that utility program.

5 So just back in this context of

6 information one possible route, and again, I'm

7 not advocating that, which might or might not

8 require FTC is some labeling language that

9 says, for example, not legal for sale in the

10 South except for installation with

11 such-and-such rated evaporator and an ECM. So

12 let's just think about that as part of one

13 possible enforcement mechanism.

14 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan. So the

15 issue with that, Harvey, is not for the OEMs

16 that I see. It's for the independent coil

17 manufacturers because you're asking to put a

18 label on the condenser unit that says with

19 these systems here's what's legal.

20 I have no control over what an ICM

21 is going to do with the rating or matches, and

22 I can't put something on my condenser just
Page 182

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 like the other manufacturers that relates to

2 what a third-party independent coil

3 manufacturer is doing with my ratings, my

4 equipment, legitimately under the program,

5 whether it's AHRI or the DOE activities in the

6 certification program. I can't put their

7 information on my condenser. I can't put it

8 in my tech guides or my consumer websites.

9 MR. SACHS: Well, I appreciate

10 that and it's certainly not something I've

11 thought about when I was thinking about water

12 heaters. The question is does that wind up

13 transferring the liability from the condensing

14 unit OEM to the independent coil

15 manufacturers?

16 MR. ROCKY: So I'm thinking about

17 the process for enforcement, and the homeowner

18 is going to get information from any

19 manufacturer that says here is the information

20 on the OEM system match.

21 MR. SACHS: Yes.

22 MR. ROCKY: Now the contractor
Page 183

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 looking to provide the most economical

2 solution works with an independent coil

3 manufacturer and says here's a system with

4 this match that may be less that gets you the

5 same efficiency. Now, how do they get the

6 information for the rating that is legitimate

7 under the Department rules?

8 MR. SACHS: Well, is that a place

9 where they can find out?

10 MR. ROCKY: But I think it's not

11 with the condenser.

12 MR. SACHS: And I understand that.

13 MR. ROCKY: Right? So it's --

14 MR. SACHS: So then the question

15 is since I haven't studied that part of the

16 regs, and this may have to be dismissed out of

17 hand, but is it conceivable that the ICM would

18 simply have to state that with this set of

19 condensing units and, you know, we need to

20 talk about automating that process, this is

21 SEER 14 and this is not SEER 14?

22 MR. ROCKY: Well, so I think that
Page 184

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 information is available through either the

2 AHRI program or the Department of Energy

3 certification database, and now you're getting

4 back to the contractor and I think, you know,

5 like Glenn and Chuck and the others talked

6 about this, or Steve, but how do you put the

7 right information in?

8 I think the information is

9 available for the ICMs to properly rate and

10 have that information available. How do we

11 get that to the people who need it so the

12 consumers don't feel here's my rating on my

13 unit, my yellow tag on my condenser and it

14 says 13 to 14.2 but the tag from my ICM says

15 14 to 15.2, and they're both right.

16 MR. SACHS: I understand and it's

17 why my, I much appreciate it. It's why my

18 comments back in 2011 or 2012 suggested that

19 we were going to wind up being forced into

20 some Big Data.

21 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter,

22 Johnstone Supply, and I appreciate, Harvey,
Page 185

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that, you know, concerns on liability and I'm

2 sure manufacturers have concerns on liability

3 that just answering the question that Karen

4 proposed is what we want to really get to is

5 what we communicate through the channel so the

6 right installation gets made. Liability is a

7 piece of it, but we just want to know.

8 MR. SACHS: Right.

9 MR. PORTER: And we don't know

10 now. So once that's answered it will go

11 through the channel.

12 MR. RAWALD: So of the two issues

13 that Matt raised. Is there any other issues

14 that you feel like, hey, these things need to

15 be answered by the Department separate from

16 what we're doing here or else we can't do this

17 enforce program. Those are the two main ones

18 and Steve, you're nodding your head. Are you

19 saying yes, no? You have more or you're just

20 nodding you head that we've got it covered?

21 MR. PORTER: I believe that's the

22 issue.
Page 186

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Those are the

2 two ones. Okay. Anything else? Anybody else

3 that may have thought of last night for this?

4 MR. CLARK: This is the curve

5 ball.

6 MR. RAWALD: This is Gary.

7 MR. CLARK: I'm sorry. This is

8 Gary from Goodman. On this idea of dry-charge

9 units going like into the South, the add

10 thought is, you know, we're talking about it

11 like it's only R22. I mean, what happens if

12 it's a dry-charge R410A unit?

13 MR. RAWALD: Well, I always

14 wondered that. So I haven't heard that ever

15 before. So is that an issue?

16 MR. CLARK: Well, it's, you know,

17 I'm probably not the only guy who's ever

18 thought of that.

19 MR. RAWALD: And so the question

20 would be if I frame it, so could we then

21 dry-charge R410A so that it would be

22 considered a component and it would get around
Page 187

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 as installed?

2 (Simultaneous speaking)

3 MR. RAWALD: Is that what you're

4 saying?

5 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave from

6 Allied.

7 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Is it, basically

9 it boils down to is a condenser a component

10 and regardless of what, it could be an 8 SEER.

11 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Or it doesn't

12 matter if it's dry-charge or not?

13 MR. WINNINGHAM: Regardless of

14 efficiency level, regardless of refrigerant,

15 is it a component or is it a system.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right. So would

17 installation of a condenser alone, in no

18 matter what context be considered a

19 replacement versus being considered an install

20 under regional standards. That's the

21 question.

22 Okay. The bigger question.
Page 188

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. NOLL: Well, the bigger part

2 of the question is, whatever framework we

3 create here is going to have ramifications. 

4 So defining that up front matters as we move

5 forward into how the market will react and how

6 we will all participate.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. That makes

8 sense. Okay. Thank you guys for elaborating

9 on that. Okay. Any other issues?

10 MR. LATTANZI: Just a comment. I

11 think Steve alluded to this, but the answer to

12 both these questions has ramifications today,

13 not -- and obviously post-January 1, 2015, but

14 many customers and distributors and

15 manufacturers are trying to figure what to

16 build right now. And so the urgency to the

17 answer to your question is it's very

18 important.

19 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, Matt, and this

20 is Doug, I think we understand that part.

21 MR. LATTANZI: Okay.

22 (Simultaneous speaking)
Page 189

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: You've given me a lot

2 of things to think about.

3 MR. SURRENA: Sounds to me like

4 most of this hinges on whether it's for repair

5 of an existing system or a new installation. 

6 New installation shouldn't be any question at

7 all, dry or wet or however it's put it it has

8 to have better efficiency. But if you're

9 fixing an existing system, I've got my whole

10 house air conditioned, add an air conditioner,

11 I've got X amount of money in my budget.

12 The darn thing quit working, so

13 this guy comes out and says your coil went bad

14 or your condensing unit went bad. Well,

15 whatever happens I've got to replace the whole

16 system now and bring it up to speed and I'm

17 looking down to the Wal-Mart to get window

18 units. That's the truth because I can't

19 afford that whole thing.

20 So at what point do we get the

21 consumer so that they get out of the gain? So

22 we gained efficiency by not letting them
Page 190

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 repair a system? It's nothing to do with new

2 systems. The new system has to comply.

3 MR. RAWALD: No, I get that. So

4 the question seems to be from the group is

5 does the replacement of the condensing unit

6 qualify as installation or is it replacement? 

7 That seems to be kind of the simplified

8 version if I were to, of the question as I

9 understand it.

10 MR. SACHS: Maybe a little too

11 simple.

12 MR. RAWALD: Is it not nuanced

13 enough?

14 MR. SACHS: I think, this is

15 Harvey, and I think that Bryan brought out

16 some other components of this question.

17 The word components is two ways.

18 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Any other

19 questions that you had thought of last night

20 to perplex me? Is this a good time for lunch?

21 MR. EISNER: Yeah, this is a good

22 time for lunch.
Page 191

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Oh, okay. I do, Eric

2 is reminding me that he did some great

3 research during our last break and the

4 question was posed about the PRA requirements. 

5 And so we did get PRA approval for record

6 retention.

7 If we were to expand the record

8 requirements to include new folks because they

9 are, you know, it's a lot of manufacturers

10 currently, we would have to receive that as

11 the Department PRA approval for that. So be

12 cognizant of that bureaucratic obstacle for

13 us.

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: You would have to

15 what?

16 MR. RAWALD: Get approval for PRA,

17 Paperwork Reduction Act for that.

18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So you get to

19 resubmit.

20 MR. RAWALD: We would.

21 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay.

22 MR. RAWALD: And that is our
Page 192

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 understanding. Yeah.

2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And I think for

3 question two?

4 MR. RAWALD: Yes. I just wanted

5 to go out and ask somebody about the standard

6 for retention, yes. And that's Charlie

7 McCrudden asking about whether we will have

8 record retention, yes. So and that was the

9 note for us. So I think what we talked about

10 yesterday was that the installers were going

11 to give us kind of an educational piece on

12 their stuff? Can we do that when we come back

13 from lunch? Are you guys ready to do that?

14 (Simultaneous speaking)

15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled

16 matter went off the record at 11:55 a.m. and

17 resumed at 1:08 p.m.)

18 MR. EISNER: All right, we've got 

19 an installer who's going to do a lecture. Do

20 you want to come front and talk so everybody

21 can hear you easily or do you want to sit in

22 your seat?
Page 193

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER WHITE: Chuck White. I

2 work for PHCC. Prior to that, for 30 plus

3 years, I ran an HVAC business in South Bend,

4 Indiana.

5 I guess I gave part of a lecture

6 over here in my little diatribe. But the

7 contracting business is -- it's broad. I

8 mean, you have all aspects of markets, from

9 residential, industrial, commercial.

10 But in the residential,

11 particularly air conditioning markets we're

12 concerned with, you could be doing new

13 installations, new construction, whether it's

14 a single-family, multi-family, residences,

15 that type of work. You could be repair work. 

16 you could be doing retro-fits and upgrades or

17 a combination of all of that.

18 So the typical contractor is, he's 

19 reacting. He gets a call. I have a problem. 

20 I need something done. And he has to go out

21 and figure it out. 

22 If you're doing new work probably
Page 194

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 somebody hands you a drawing. Maybe they hand

2 you some specifications. But in residential,

3 usually it's a here's the house or the, you

4 know, multi-family it's probably selected for

5 you. But he's probably doing some selecting

6 in many applications.

7 So he has the ability, a new

8 construction guy has the ability, to say well,

9 I want to buy a ABC condensing unit. And ABC

10 also makes a coil that matches with it and I

11 can do that or ABC makes a great condensing

12 unit but they're high-priced on their coils. 

13 So I can go over to XYZ and get their coil,

14 and it matches. And he's pretty good.

15 But when you get into the

16 renovation and repair market it becomes more

17 difficult. Like I said earlier, there's

18 market pressures. So possibly there are other

19 people coming to look at this. But many times

20 a service technician pulls into the driveway

21 and there's somebody else ringing the

22 doorbell. Well, what are you doing here? 
Page 195

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Well, they called me too, and I got here

2 first.

3 Consumers don't even think about

4 calling anybody off if somebody else is

5 showing up. And, as a contractor, my service

6 technicians are an inventory of time. I sell

7 their time. I mean, if I have something I

8 can't sell it to that's costing.

9 So you come to a job and you have

10 to make a decision, what's wrong. And you

11 diagnose it, the problem. If it's minor and

12 fixable you proceed. But if it's a compressor

13 bad or outdoor condenser is eroded and leaking

14 badly and not really repairable, that's going

15 to drive you to new equipment selection.

16 The top-notch contractor, and I

17 don't want, I guess I don't want to put it in

18 that terms because we would tend to think

19 there's tops and bottom feeders. And there

20 are, indeed, bottom feeders. But a lot of

21 bottom feeders aren't really contractors. 

22 They're kind of make-believe contractors.
Page 196

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 But some place they buy their

2 parts and some place they get their tools, and

3 some place they have their knowledge. And the

4 rest of the place they're screwing up the work

5 for everybody else.

6 But you have to make decisions for

7 folks and you have to say here's your choices,

8 and what I would really like to do for you is

9 put in a SEER-18 and this and this. And then

10 I add all this.

11 And people have to say, well, I

12 have two kids in college and the car just

13 needed a new bumper, and I can't do that. 

14 Well, okay, we can go down to SEER-13 and do

15 this, and that means this. And if we're in

16 the south it's now going to be SEER-14. But

17 it may still be outside of their budget.

18 And there are times where a

19 contractor has to say I can't do what you want

20 me to do. And that happens. I mean, there

21 are times where you say, well, I really don't

22 want to do this but you need it done, and I'll
Page 197

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 take care of it.

2 But the other thing is it's never

3 65 degrees when you're fixing an air

4 conditioner. And, let me tell you, when

5 people's heat is out they call up and they beg

6 with you. Can you please come out I'm cold,

7 please?

8 When they're air conditioning is

9 out they don't call up and beg. They demand. 

10 I'm hot. I need you here. Where are you? 

11 You were going to be here 20 minutes ago. 

12 They're very much more demanding.

13 Hence, human nature. And we have

14 laws of physics and laws of human nature. And

15 we're all bound by them and we can't escape

16 them.

17 So the things we do to increase

18 efficiency, those laws of physics are fixed

19 and how I present it to people and my sales 

20 pitch is my sales pitch. But if they don't

21 have the money or they don't have the

22 financing ability you're a crossroads. What
Page 198

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 do I do?

2 And, I said earlier, early in my

3 career we changed compressors all the time. 

4 And we were pretty good at it. And it's not

5 easy. Compressor change-outs are much more

6 difficult than changing that outdoor unit.

7 You have to disassemble more

8 things. And, nowadays, everybody thinks it's

9 a good idea to put the compressor in the

10 middle of the coil, so you've got to stand on

11 your head to do everything. Sorry, they

12 design them that way but, again, we're making

13 it more compact so we can get more on a

14 smaller footprint. I understand that too.

15 But we want to change a coil we

16 want to change condensing units. It's faster,

17 it's easier. It's a better job when I'm done. 

18 They have a better piece of hardware. But now

19 I have these problems -- 410, efficiency

20 levels and all these things, and the people's

21 budget constraints.

22 And so do I go back and say, well,
Page 199

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we're going to change compressors now? And

2 that does happen. There are occasions, even

3 set aside all this discussion, there are times

4 where you're still going to change a

5 compressor for some specific reason.

6 But when we do that, we can do it

7 and we can do a good job at it. But because

8 we got away from doing it we don't really have

9 as many trained people to do that. It's more

10 difficult, it's more technical.

11 And as an industry we're facing a

12 huge worker shortage. I don't have to tell

13 all aspects of the industry sitting around

14 here that in order for -- in the service

15 industry we're projecting in the next 10 years

16 100,000 technician shortage.

17 As people retire, we don't have

18 people coming in. As the Association, we're

19 out trying to market that. ACCA and PHCC and

20 ASHRAE and AHRI and some others, we were at

21 the USA Science Fair telling out story and

22 trying to let people know this is a good
Page 200

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 career.

2 I mean, you don't have to go get

3 huge college loans and spend four years. You

4 can work now and provide for your family. 

5 It's not for everybody, but college isn't for

6 everybody either.

7 So most contractors want to do the

8 right thing. There are some out there that

9 are shady and looking to turn the fastest buck

10 they can that way. And there are, the people

11 that are there working out of the back of

12 their truck.

13 And for as long as I was alive and

14 my dad was alive and my grandfather was alive,

15 they can't do that, we've got to fix it. 

16 We're never going to fix it. It's not going

17 to go away. We've got to minimize this. 

18 We've got to do the best we can to solve that.

19 But those of us that are in the

20 professional end of the industry are

21 interested in selling the highest efficiency

22 products that we can that the people can
Page 201

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 afford and that we can physically do. It's in

2 our best interest. I mean we get a little

3 selfish here. It's higher efficiency

4 equipment, it's a higher margin. It's better

5 -- I mean, that's a fact of life.

6 But it also, my business and a lot

7 of people that I work with through PHCC, we're

8 tuned into the energy aspect. And that's one

9 of the pitches we make. I can give you this

10 SEER-13 and this is the projected cost,

11 operating cost.

12 If we go to a 14 or we go to a 16,

13 here's what we project the operating costs

14 are. It's going to be a little more money but

15 here's your payback. And we, most contractors

16 -- and ACCA has the same mentality -- I'm sure

17 you want us to speak as well, but we try to

18 educate contractors to do these things.

19 So the discussions about what's

20 SEER-14 and all these things, we need to know. 

21 And on one hand it could be I just need a box. 

22 When I go to Mr. Johnstone and say I need an
Page 202

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 air conditioner for Mrs. Smith's house you

2 have to give me the box that has what works. 

3 But I also have to know that, when I open that

4 box, it's correct.

5 And there are people out there

6 that are going to buy one thing from him and

7 one thing from him and someone over here. So

8 the contractor has to have a firm

9 understanding on this and make accurate

10 projections, accurate sizing.

11 Sizing is critical. Calculation

12 sizing room calculations -- you can't walk up

13 to a house and say, oh, you got a 3-ton unit,

14 3-ton's what you're getting. 3-ton's maybe

15 enough, maybe short, it may have been too

16 much, they may have put an addition on -- you

17 have to look at the situation because, in days

18 gone by, more is better.

19 And most people might believe you,

20 particularly in the furnaces. You do a load

21 calculation and you tell them a 70,000-BTU

22 furnace is fine and they say, well I got 200
Page 203

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 in the basement now. Well, okay, and glad you

2 do but 70 is all you need and that's what you

3 want.

4 But we encourage professionalism. 

5 When I ran the business, my son runs the

6 business, we come to it with an engineering

7 mind, many contractors do, that we need to

8 know the facts. We need to know how to

9 proceed. We need to know we're putting the

10 right stuff in. And that's what we want to

11 do.

12 So that's, I mean, I'm not all

13 hung up about what's SEER-14. If it's, if you

14 want to be SEER-14, fine. If it's going to be

15 SEER-16 maybe I'm not as happy about that. 

16 But whatever the ground rules are, I need to

17 know. And I will model my business to do

18 that.

19 Are there going to be bottom

20 feeders out there cheating? Are there going

21 to be -- yes. But we need to try to minimize

22 those? Yes. Are we going to stamp them out
Page 204

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 or are they going to go away? Sorry, I don't

2 think so. But, I mean, I would sure love it

3 because in any market, any contractor's

4 market, they're screwing up your business.

5 So I don't know if there's --

6 Glenn, do you want to add anything or

7 Carolyn's got anything or if you have any

8 questions you'd like to ask me. But that, I

9 mean, I'm running a reactionary business

10 responding to people's needs on issues as best

11 I can in a short time frame. They want it

12 fixed now, not two weeks from now.

13 MR. EISNER: Can you talk a little

14 bit now about what kind of inventory you keep

15 and what kind of record-keeping you do and

16 whether it's electronic --

17 MEMBER WHITE: Inventory wise, in

18 my business, minimum. Inventory is money. 

19 And what do I buy? Do I buy a bunch of 2-ton

20 units, 3-ton units, 4-ton units? I don't want

21 stuff sitting around.

22 So if I know I have a project --
Page 205

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 my son's doing a project right now for a house

2 that's a big house. It's two 4-ton systems. 

3 It's a really nice house. So I contact the

4 guy that I deal with and say, hey, I've got

5 this and he calculates up sizes and gets us

6 the stuff. And, you know, magically, it shows

7 up on the truck and we're ready to go.

8 But, parts wise, we'll have fan

9 motors, we'll have transformers, stuff like

10 that. So you've got parts inventory. But as

11 far as hardware, my business, we don't try to

12 stock much.

13 There are other people that will,

14 that will -- where we were not a big

15 residential dealer. There are businesses in

16 my town that are, and I'm sure they buy -- I'm

17 not privy to how they operate.

18 But I'm sure that they'll buy

19 whatever the quantity -- 10, 8, 20, whatever

20 gets them a price break to stock up for the

21 season. And they have historical, you know,

22 we've done so many all these years and they've
Page 206

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 done some summers where it comes around to

2 bite you because we've had some summers where

3 it's been cool and we didn't sell very many

4 air conditioners. This summer hasn't really

5 been very much of an issue.

6 Record-keeping, we will track the

7 information per job in our -- we have a

8 software system that tracks our customers and

9 clients in a database and all that. So go to

10 Mrs. Smith and, you know, in 2008 we did this

11 and in 2010 we did that. She bought a new

12 unit. She did this or did that.

13 But I don't have, other than the

14 software version, that that's what we keep. 

15 Obviously everything that gets purchased we've

16 got a receipt for. And, you know, broke the

17 bottom of the filing cabinets to keep all that

18 stuff. But we've got cabinets full of

19 purchases from this wholesaler or that

20 wholesaler or whatever.

21 So you probably could ask me the

22 first job we did and I could probably find the
Page 207

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 invoice that we billed someone. I doubt I'd

2 have the wholesalers' invoices anymore for any

3 of that stuff. We don't keep that forever. 

4 But that's about all we do -- yes.

5 MR. RAWALD: Some, I want -- just,

6 I want to follow up on that record-keeping but

7 it's important to know kind of what folks are

8 keeping already versus what we, if we were to

9 do some record retention what would be added

10 to their burden.

11 So it sounds like that, at least

12 in your business, you keep track of the

13 customer and who they are, other than that,

14 when you install a unit do you keep serial

15 numbers? What do you keep as far as what

16 you've installed in that person's house?

17 MEMBER WHITE: Well, we will keep,

18 I mean we have the packing, the shipping

19 documents with the serial numbers. Usually

20 that's entered on the job, record. But those

21 are our confidential business records. I'm

22 not interested in sharing that with anybody.
Page 208

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I get

2 that. And we did discuss about, like, what

3 you -- I'm just kind of curious what people

4 like to collect and just kind of give a scope

5 of what is out there.

6 MEMBER WHITE: And it depends on

7 the contractors. But most contractors are

8 going to keep the client and the sizing so

9 they know that Mrs. Smith was a 3-ton, Mr.

10 Johnstone's house was a 2-ton or --

11 MR. RAWALD: The model numbers

12 too? Or like the model number on the outdoor

13 unit versus the indoor?

14 MEMBER WHITE: Probably, but

15 sometimes not. It really depends. A lot of

16 contractors will line up with ABC company. 

17 And so if they say they put in a 2-ton they

18 know it was ABC's Model 7, a 2-ton. But

19 others will have lots of detail.

20 The common programs, the

21 contractor programs, these days have lots of

22 ability. We can take camera phone pictures
Page 209

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 and attach them to the file. So in service

2 that's particularly helpful because you can

3 arrive and there's a fence post stuck through

4 the side of the air conditioner, clicked and

5 took a picture of that as soon as I got there.

6 And the homeowner says, well you

7 ran a fence post through my unit. No, ma'am,,

8 here's a picture. It was there when I got

9 here. And, you know, and here's what we did

10 and here's, you know, when we were done this

11 is what it looked like and, you know, this is

12 your carpet that I didn't leave a muddy trail

13 on.

14 Now you can document all kinds of

15 things, depending on the client base you're

16 working with. And in my career I've worked

17 with, from really the very poor all the way up

18 to the extremely rich. And you get different

19 behaviors out of all categories.

20 Some people who are economically

21 challenged will find ways to buy things that

22 will save them money. And people that have
Page 210

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 significant resources aren't going to part

2 with it for an extra dime for anything.

3 And it's all over the board. And

4 that's one of the challenges. I'm not dealing

5 with a customer in a category of a certain

6 means every day. It's all over the board.

7 MR. EISNER: Any other questions? 

8 Additions?

9 MR. RAWALD: Well, Chuck, if I can

10 follow-up, so the record retention sounds like

11 it varies pretty widely across the industry,

12 then, depending on a number of factors, both

13 who the contractor is and how diligent they

14 want to be with keeping records or how

15 important it is to them or if they can even

16 afford to keep an office staff running those

17 kind of things.

18 MEMBER WHITE: Mm-hmm.

19 MR. RAWALD: As well as who

20 they're dealing with and what they feel is

21 appropriate to keep because of the people

22 they're dealing with, possibly. So there's
Page 211

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 really no kind of baseline, in your

2 experience, of what people -- most people

3 should have this thing in their data and in

4 their records?

5 MEMBER WHITE: It's just going to

6 depend on the contractor and what they feel is

7 pertinent to their information. Some people

8 are high volume, crank it out, turn them over,

9 probably never going back there again.

10 MR. RAWALD: Right.

11 MEMBER WHITE: Other people may be

12 interested in cultivating repeat business so

13 then you're going to tend to document more

14 just because you're planning on developing a

15 relationship. You know, we, very much, are a

16 relationship organization.

17 MR. RAWALD: Your particular?

18 MEMBER WHITE: My particular

19 organization.

20 MR. RAWALD: And what about as far

21 as the energy label? Like what do you folks

22 do with that?
Page 212

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER WHITE: We put together a

2 little packet of stuff and there you go.

3 MR. RAWALD: So you give it to the

4 homeowner?

5 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, present

6 whatever documents we have. I would say we're

7 not always the best at going over what every

8 document means and, you know. Most people are

9 not -- there is a segment.

10 MR. RAWALD: Mixed segment?

11 MEMBER WHITE: A segment of the

12 market that are very interested in what's the

13 most efficient thing I can do, and that's what

14 they want right out of the gate.

15 There's another section that is

16 pretty amenable to it. So you talk about it,

17 you can find out, move them up to that. I

18 would say the biggest section of the market is

19 concerned with what the bottom line on the

20 quote is.

21 It's, in the words of my

22 grandfather, it's an expensive business, you'd
Page 213

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 better get used to it. And I, more than once,

2 have had the thought, if this was my house and

3 somebody came to my house and said, I'm sorry,

4 sir, your air conditioner doesn't work and

5 it's going to cost X, how would that hit me.

6 You know, there's some tough

7 numbers out there. And I think another thing 

8 you have to remember, there are contractors

9 out there that do very well. But I think,

10 especially in the frame of the last 8 to 10

11 years it has been challenging for contractors. 

12 There's been, typically, industry

13 wide, it's not a huge profit margin that

14 you're working with. I mean, every minute

15 counts. Every move counts. And there's --

16 it's a tough business and there's a lot of

17 competition. You have to try to operate as

18 lean and as efficiently as you can. And

19 there's just not a lot of spare.

20 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I guess that

21 depends on -- what I was wondering, so as far

22 as operating leanly, so, I mean, how many of
Page 214

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 these companies have people that are doing

2 administrative work? Or is that overhead that

3 people can't afford so they really -- you

4 know, the guy who's out there doing the work

5 is also the guy who's going to go home at

6 night and do paperwork.

7 MEMBER WHITE: If you're a small

8 business that's probably what you're doing. 

9 If you're a one or two-man shop, you're

10 probably doing all that work when you get

11 home. You get a little bigger, you know, or

12 not.

13 MR. RAWALD: I'm sorry, what was

14 that Glenn?

15 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Or not.

16 MEMBER WHITE: Or not.

17 MR. RAWALD: Or -- okay. Or not

18 doing the paperwork at all?

19 MEMBER WHITE: Right, yes. And so

20 most people have someone for an office staff,

21 even to answer the phone and do some basic

22 book work. And many times, especially in
Page 215

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 small operations, that somebody is usually the

2 owner's wife or spouse. It could be the

3 husband if the wife runs the business, which

4 is not unheard of.

5 People drag their children into

6 the business. Did I mention I'm third

7 generation and my son's fourth? I've poisoned

8 the well too.

9 But there are big operations out

10 there, especially in the major metropolitan

11 areas. But in most of the small markets there

12 just isn't enough work there to support a 200

13 man operation.

14 In the area where I live there is

15 one contractor and it's supposed to be 200

16 trucks on the road. But he's a major

17 commercial/industrial, very little residential

18 and covers a large geographic area.

19 The typical contractor our area in

20 the residential market is going to be five to

21 seven to ten guys in the truck. If you have

22 more than 10 you're probably the big outfit in
Page 216

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 our area.

2 And you just can't have a lot of

3 additional staff to do that kind of stuff. 

4 And training wise, we rely very heavily on

5 wholesalers. Contractors rely very heavily on

6 wholesaler for their seminars they put on. 

7 They'll get manufacturers to come in and do

8 something about new equipment or refrigeration

9 classes.

10 PHCC will give -- and at ACCA --

11 give that presence in your area, and it's

12 fairly strong, they will do training programs

13 as well. Our, in my area we have a chapter

14 that does a kind of apprentice program. And

15 I'm missing my first night of Apprentice class

16 tonight. I've taught that for a long time.

17 MR. RAWALD: But that all comes

18 from the overhead as well, right, because the

19 company is sending someone to do the training. 

20 They're not out there on the road --

21 MEMBER WHITE: Right. Well, our

22 -- correct. And if, in terms of
Page 217

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 apprenticeship, that's usually after hours. 

2 But in terms of seminars for refrigeration or

3 other technical things, that's usually during

4 the day, and that's usually going to be a loss

5 of productivity.

6 Most places, unless you're mom and

7 pop, most people are going to have to pay

8 their technicians to go to those things. But

9 usually it's well worth it. You're

10 strengthening your workforce in the technical

11 aspects. It's benefits you to do that.

12 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So this is Gary

13 for the California IOUs. Do you fill out and

14 use warranty cards that the manufacturers

15 provide?

16 MEMBER WHITE: Oh, well, we never

17 have a warranty calls. Just to -- yes, if

18 there's a warranty situation, sure you --

19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Well, I don't

20 usually have to go out on warranty calls. I

21 mean do you --

22 MEMBER WHITE: Register it? 
Page 218

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Sometimes. Sometimes it is kind of de facto

2 registered because we bought it. And if we

3 keep the purchase documents, which means

4 sometimes you're wading through the file

5 cabinet to find the invoice for the particular

6 unit you may have sold, but sometimes we will

7 register them. Sometimes the consumer will

8 register. Sometimes it's registered through

9 our relationship with our wholesaler.

10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Do you consider

11 filling out that information, which I presume

12 would be some model number or serial number

13 identifying the equipment and the location of

14 installation, a major burden? Or is that just

15 one little card that you have to fill out

16 that's kind of incidental?

17 MEMBER WHITE: I'm not sure. We

18 don't fill out a lot of them because we have

19 good wholesalers that we rely on. But I think

20 if you do a lot of equipment it adds to the

21 time for the job because you have to track all

22 that and get it taken care of.
Page 219

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 And I would like to say you could

2 have the technician do it while he's there but

3 you're lucky to get a timecard from him

4 sometimes. I mean, it's -- everything is

5 process and procedure. And I know it doesn't

6 sound like much. All you've got to do is

7 write a few things down. But it's rarely that

8 simple.

9 MR. RAWALD: Right, I guess --

10 this is Doug -- so what you're saying, Chuck,

11 too is that, you know, every minute is

12 valuable because you're paying for time, at

13 this point. And time spent filling out the

14 card is time that could be spent installing

15 another unit.

16 MEMBER WHITE: Mm-hmm.

17 MR. RAWALD: And so all those

18 things add up, in your mind, when you're

19 running a small business, is what I'm hearing

20 you're saying from your perspective.

21 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen at

22 Department of Energy too. Two follow-ups. 
Page 220

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 So, one, on the sales where you get these you

2 mentioned you go out to the house or you see

3 where the job is and you offer maybe there's

4 a SEER-18, SEER-16 or 14, whatever it is, and

5 you price it all out. Is that -- that's done

6 by the salesperson or it's done by the

7 installer person or the two different -- I

8 mean --

9 (Simultaneous speaking)

10 MEMBER WHITE: That depends on the

11 organization. In my organization it could be

12 the technician. More likely, it would be my

13 son and, when I was there, probably me.

14 MR. COHEN: So you go back on a

15 return trip? In other words, you go out and

16 do kind of, assess the job or something?

17 MEMBER WHITE: It could be. It

18 might be something we could do over the phone

19 as well. It depends. My business was very

20 much, is very much, a relationship business. 

21 I don't do a lot of cold calls. I don't do a

22 lot of going out looking. Most of the people
Page 221

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 have contacted me. If not that, my son, these

2 days. We have -- somebody knows us.

3 But in the typical kind of bigger

4 organization you will have a service

5 technician that goes out there, finds an

6 issue, will make a call and a sales person

7 will schedule -- either try to get the whole

8 way out with the technician or schedule a

9 sales call with the consumer to say, look, we

10 can fix this and it's going to cost X. Or you

11 can do this and it's going to cost Y. You

12 know, what do you want to do and figure out

13 whether you should do one or the other. 

14 MR. COHEN: So when that sale

15 comes in -- now let me ask this one. When

16 does the energy value label come into play? 

17 Do you give them --

18 MEMBER WHITE: We're --

19 (Simultaneous speaking)

20 MR. COHEN: -- I mean, if your

21 sales, after a portion of this is relating to

22 marketing out three different units, hopefully
Page 222

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I can say, gee, really, the issue was that

2 your coil is leaking. I mean, I think that's

3 another --

4 MEMBER WHITE: Well, the point --

5 MR. COHEN: It's another option

6 here.

7 MEMBER WHITE: Sure. But if it's

8 a -- if it's something that we're going to fix

9 it --

10 MR. COHEN: But then, again, you

11 could do both.

12 MEMBER WHITE: Sure.

13 MR. COHEN: You could say either

14 I'll fix the coil or --

15 MEMBER WHITE: Or we'll --

16 MR. COHEN: -- you need to get a

17 whole new system.

18 MEMBER COHEN: Yes, we can do

19 this.

20 MR. COHEN: So do you go back and

21 so you guys label at that point or are you

22 guys waiting until after it gets installed?
Page 223

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER WHITE: It kind of depends. 

2 If you have some time that you can prepare and

3 they're not, you know, I want my air

4 conditioning, well put together a,

5 essentially, a sales packet that has that

6 information in it. Other times they're like,

7 I need my air conditioning. Do whatever we

8 have to do, how much is that going to cost,

9 talk to you over the phone and let's get

10 going.

11 And, again, in my business, it's

12 relationships. So I'm not dealing with people

13 that don't know me most of the time that we

14 have previous business relationships, they

15 have multiple properties, whatever that might

16 be, so.

17 But if we're working with someone

18 that we don't know, because occasionally you

19 do, then I want to get them as much of that

20 information as possible. But sometimes

21 they're --- when can you have up here. So,

22 frankly, most of the time, that's not even on
Page 224

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 their radar.

2 MR. COHEN: So they're not -- and

3 so if they need a new system --

4 MEMBER WHITE: I will be there

5 getting --

6 (Simultaneous speaking)

7 MR. COHEN: They're not getting

8 the energy guide label until after it's been

9 installed in their house?

10 MEMBER WHITE: Could be in some

11 cases. But, I mean, most of the time you try

12 to get, especially in the bigger

13 organizations, if you're cold calling and if

14 you're dealing with people you don't know, if

15 you're in a competitive situation where there

16 could be two or three or four others, then you

17 try to have as much of that, especially if you

18 have a salesman.

19 A salesman's got that literature

20 at his disposal, puts it in their packet,

21 here's what we do. This is, you know, first

22 choice, second choice, third choice, however
Page 225

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you want to -- good, better, best -- however

2 you want to put it, and make that

3 presentation.

4 And, again, that's -- that depends

5 on the company. And there are some

6 organizations that it's one, two people and

7 they don't have a salesman and they're working

8 out of their truck with the literature they

9 have at hand as best as possible and, man, can

10 I borrow your computer. I can bring this up

11 and show you some literature and I'll print it

12 off. And there's --

13 MR. COHEN: So in that situation

14 is it typically -- you mentioned this earlier

15 but I guess I'm kind of curious about the --

16 what's usual and what's not. So is it the

17 case that, for the most part, the installer is

18 going to be typically using Lennox or Carrier

19 or -- they're not shifting back and forth?

20 I mean, or is it more the case

21 that they are more likely, the thing is just

22 economics, what the cost would be to --
Page 226

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER WHITE: Well, you'll have

2 dealerships where a contractor will be the

3 Lennox dealer or a York dealer or a Rheem --

4 (Simultaneous speaking)

5 MR. HURST: John Hurst, from

6 Lennox. I think the best way to think about

7 this, and this is how I used to describe it to

8 people that didn't understand this segment of

9 the industry, is consistently and consistent.

10 You cannot do a broad brush. 

11 Because, to your point, you have the situation

12 where the technician works for the larger

13 company, sees what the billable rate is,

14 thinks I can do this, drags a buddy with him

15 and opens up shop. And that happens time and

16 time and time again.

17 And they may get lucky or maybe

18 they're good. And they do it for about 8 to

19 10 people. And then you have to start

20 developing an infrastructure for billing,

21 accounting. And then you grow into one of

22 these bigger marketing dealers if you can get
Page 227

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 passed that hump. And a lot don't. Some do.

2 MEMBER WHITE: Or they spiral out

3 or control it.

4 MR. HURST: Yes. So --- I think

5 the hard part about answering any of your

6 questions, the answer is yes, no, maybe. And

7 all of them are correct answers.

8 MEMBER WHITE: My favorite answer

9 is it depends.

10 (Simultaneous speaking)

11 MR. COHEN: Well, we use that

12 though. You can't use that one.

13 MEMBER WHITE: Well, and to the

14 dealership question, other people feel I don't

15 want to be tied to this person that I have to. 

16 Because what happens in July when the

17 wholesaler doesn't have any 3-tons left and

18 you've got people that need 3-ton units? And,

19 believe me, that happens.

20 MR. COHEN: So are you more likely

21 than in the installation to be looking to pair

22 things up? In other words, are you looking to 
Page 228

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 find the condensing unit and the coil and put

2 them together or are you going to the

3 manufacturer or through the distributor and

4 say this is what they've created as the sort

5 of paired set and that's what I'm going to

6 install to be 13, 14 --

7 MEMBER WHITE: Normally, in my

8 operation, I would go to my favorite

9 wholesaler and say I need this. It's an

10 upflow and I need a cased coil or an uncased

11 coil and I need a 3-ton.

12 And he would call back and say,

13 okay, we've got one of these and this coil

14 will go with it. You can use this coil and

15 this coil. This one's this dimension. This

16 one's that dimension. Which ones fit -- which

17 one fits your need, but they're both listed.

18 So I'm not going to AHRI's

19 website, pawing through. I'm not going to

20 DOE's 1.7 million choices and trying to figure

21 it out.

22 And a contractor relies very
Page 229

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 heavily on their partners in the industry. 

2 The wholesaler/contractor partnership is

3 really important because we work together --

4 and the manufacturer, to an extent. We're

5 more isolated from the manufacturer.

6 But I don't want to buy product

7 from a wholesaler and have to keep taking it

8 back. He doesn't want to see me coming in. 

9 Oh, God, here comes Chuck. He's brought

10 another motor back because he doesn't know

11 what he's doing.

12 So I want a good relationship with

13 the guy and when something goes wrong we work

14 together, we figure out what happened, we work

15 to make it better. In my own business, my

16 personal philosophy, which came from my

17 father, and now my son has his, we're going to

18 fix the problem.

19 And I will fix the problem. And I

20 may not make any money on it but we're going

21 to take care of you. I may make a little more

22 money the next time, but I'm going to solve
Page 230

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the problem. Not every business is like that

2 but that's, personally, that's how I operate.

3 MR. COHEN: So then the question

4 really is, for you, that you have to move to 

5 distribute something. So how do they -- how

6 does the distributor, then -- do they go onto

7 the AHRI registry or how do they --

8 (Simultaneous speaking)

9 MEMBER WHITE: I don't want to

10 speak for them.

11 MR. COHEN: Is it by company or is

12 it by just generically?

13 MEMBER WHITE: Not to speak for

14 them, but I would assume if you use ABC

15 condensing units you know the ABC coils that

16 go with it. And if, you know, maybe I --

17 MEMBER RAWALD: Yes, we've also

18 Steve Porter here for the --

19 MEMBER WHITE: And maybe I'll have

20 an alternate. I might have an alternate XYZ

21 brand coil that I --

22 MEMBER PORTER: I can neither
Page 231

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 confirm not deny.

2 MEMBER WHITE: I rely on that to

3 work together. And we produce the documents

4 that says it's okay.

5 MEMBER PORTER: Now we go to the

6 register. We look and match up charts from

7 the manufacturers and third party coil people

8 and usually provide a match-up chart that goes

9 along with the selection so they can make the

10 proper equipment choices.

11 MEMBER WHITE: One of the last

12 things I want is a technician having to circle

13 back to my office, sit down at a desk and

14 bring up the online Internet and be thinking

15 about Mrs. Smith's air conditioner, what all

16 the permutations. I want to see Mr. Jones'

17 air conditioner.

18 MR. SURRENA: There is --

19 everybody's really irked -- John Melchi -- and

20 I assume you'll also see it's illustrated in

21 person because --

22 MR. MELCHI: This is John Melchi. 
Page 232

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Sorry, and thank you, Don. And one of the

2 things we've heard from some of our members is

3 that it's not uncommon, and some can probably

4 confirm this but some contractors use multiple

5 distributors at a time, buying one piece from,

6 or one component particularly if they maybe

7 they are already a stocking contractor. So

8 it's not a onesy/twosey type of transaction

9 all the time.

10 MEMBER PORTER: This is Steve

11 Porter. So a contractor is going to use, and

12 many do view each whole session as a line of

13 credit, right. We provide credit. So they

14 may one or two or three that they shop at and

15 one may be their supplies. So he may buy his

16 coils at that one. And one may be his

17 equipment primary.

18 He may have TXVs and stock that we

19 don't know about or stocks every truck is

20 stocked usually to, you know, buy $10,000

21 worth of product on a truck. So that

22 inventory's out there.
Page 233

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 We're not visible to that

2 inventory and we're not even always aware of

3 which are his second and third options in town

4 or even fourth options if the weather -- like

5 he says, if it gets really hot I think

6 everybody needs to understand that we call

7 them differently than what Chuck was talking

8 about.

9 We say planned purchases by

10 consumers, which is a really small segment of

11 the market. And then there's unplanned which

12 means it failed, it stopped working. I got to

13 pick up the phone and call somebody. 

14 Those are the norm and those

15 happen with all different kinds of

16 relationships involved and who's at home at

17 the time. Your son who's out of school, and

18 he's going to be there when the contractor

19 shows up, right. So somebody's got to be in

20 the house usually, if they need to get in the

21 house.

22 And then we don't -- if
Page 234

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 everybody's out in town, it's been a hot

2 summer, you know, that fourth or fifth option

3 may come into play to go get those parts to

4 make it all happen.

5 MEMBER WHITE: I want to add to

6 that. When you have the planned option I have

7 more flexibility. I can take some more quotes

8 and I can say, Steve, can you head over to my

9 office on Tuesday? And Steve's truck will

10 show up and there we go.

11 But while in the heat of it I'm

12 adding parts. You know which wholesaler's

13 most important to me? The one that's closest

14 to me right now because I want to get the part

15 and get back and get done.

16 And I might like Steve but he's

17 out by the airport and I'm on the other side

18 of town. Even if his part --

19 MEMBER PORTER: There's always a

20 taxi. We'll get a taxi there.

21 MEMBER WHITE: That's true. 

22 That's great. Even if his part was --
Page 235

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER PORTER: I don't want to

2 lose a sale.

3 MEMBER WHITE: I mean, time and

4 the technician is just critical.

5 MR. RAWALD: Now we were talking

6 about -- John gives us the fourth.

7 MEMBER WHITE: Sorry.

8 MEMBER GIBBONS: Yes. Something

9 you didn't touch on, and I know you just

10 skipped it, is most professional contractors

11 like yourself and the organization that ACCA

12 folks represent hold permits. Now I know from

13 experience that not all contractors hold

14 permits.

15 Now the part is, which you alluded

16 to and I think what Steve said is in the heat

17 of the season fewer and fewer permits get

18 pulled. So to your question, Dan, about are

19 they getting the certificates, maybe in

20 non-emergency situations there's a higher

21 percentage of that.

22 In emergency situations they don't
Page 236

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 care. Contractors just want to get one thing

2 done and move to the next sale. You know,

3 it's time to make money. And people skip

4 steps. And one of those steps may be

5 inadvertent by the municipality. I mean, some

6 places don't even care.

7 And other places, like Ray pointed

8 out, they want every certificate. So I think

9 it varies. And, I mean, maybe they can talk

10 about permitting and how that --

11 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, it does vary

12 and not every jurisdiction requires a permit. 

13 There are places that do not have requirements

14 for heating licenses.

15 MEMBER GIBBONS: Oh, yes,

16 licenses. I mean --

17 MEMBER WHITE: In Indiana it's not

18 a statewide license. And it's a contractor's

19 license. It's not a technician. So the

20 contractor's responsible for the people

21 working for him. And you get one in the city

22 of South Bend, the city of Mishawaka, the
Page 237

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 county, the next county, the next town.

2 So if I'm working in much of an

3 area I've got a bunch of licenses. But

4 permits for most of the jurisdictions are not

5 hard. Fill it out, cash a check, mail it in,

6 you're done.

7 We have one town that will not

8 take it in the mail because they can't be sure

9 it was your signature because they didn't see

10 you sign it. So you have to show up at their

11 office in person.

12 MEMBER GIBBONS: Have it notarized

13 then.

14 MR. RAWALD: So we have Johanna

15 and both -- and so they've been waiting for a

16 while. So we'll hear Johanna, first and then

17 --

18 MS. HARIHANAN: Thanks. This is

19 Johanna Harihanan, DOE. This is completely

20 obscure. What percentage of your business is

21 actually just replacing parts of the

22 equipment? And out of those which parts are
Page 238

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the most common that you replace?

2 MEMBER WHITE: Well --

3 MR. RAWALD: I want all the people

4 to answer that question because --

5 MEMBER WHITE: -- my business is

6 -- I don't know that I would be

7 representational and businesses are going to

8 be different. But it's a hard question to

9 answer because I don't just do air

10 conditioning. So I have lots of other things

11 that go on in my business.

12 But in air conditioning work I

13 would say probably 60 to 70 percent is parts

14 replacement. That's aside from a compressor

15 which means service, cleaning, that kind of

16 stuff, big amount of time and motors,

17 contractors, capacitors. Those are kind of

18 the big ones. 

19 And really equipment has gotten

20 much more reliable. So we don't have to sell

21 it quite as often, especially if do some

22 routine service. So I would say of the air
Page 239

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 conditioning end of things the majority of it

2 is parts replacement in my business.

3 Other contractors, too, probably

4 have a different mix. And it really depends. 

5 Again, my business is not heavy into the

6 residential market. We do residential work

7 but it's not our target market. So we're not

8 out, we're not scheduling five houses a day.

9 MR. RAWALD: It is all right,

10 Mike. 

11 MR. SURRENA: Don.

12 MR. RAWALD: Don.

13 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena, NAHB.

14 MR. RAWALD: Don Surrena.

15 MR. SURRENA: Some of your smaller

16 contractors, they get their information from

17 their distributor as to which coil they need. 

18 That's what they use for their reference. As

19 for, I've got a couple, back over here, of

20 answers.

21 And as far as permitting, goes I

22 was a permit official for 20 years before I
Page 240

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 went with NAHB. And you can replace equipment

2 under emergency conditions, late at night or

3 whatever, and then get the permit within so

4 many hours.

5 Most communities who enforce the

6 mechanical code over the residential code

7 allow that. It's, and as you'd said, some

8 communities, they've got no clue that you were

9 even in town.

10 It's harder now for builders to

11 get their subcontractors back since 2008. 

12 Guys who had been in the business have just

13 stopped. They just, they've gotten different

14 occupations now.

15 So we're finding it a difficulty

16 to get the skilled people out to the jobs so

17 that the guy with the truck, who works for the

18 fire department during the day, he gets in

19 there now.

20 But that's the reality of we've

21 lost the labor force. And it's making it more

22 difficult to keep track of records and who has
Page 241

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it and who hasn't and who's done what and who

2 hasn't.

3 It is something that we're facing

4 today at NAHB as a major problem, getting our

5 builders back to work by getting their subs

6 back. And HVAC is one of the problem areas

7 that we have.

8 MEMBER WHITE: And technicians.

9 MR. SURRENA: Exactly.

10 MEMBER WHITE: I can't make a HVAC

11 technician in a week. I can't make him in a

12 month. I've got to make -- I can't make a

13 good one in a year. I mean, you -- it's a

14 highly complex, with lots of moving parts and

15 pieces and complex things.

16 And through the downturn my

17 business shrank significantly, through the

18 downturn. Significantly. And the two best

19 guys I had, I did everything possible to make

20 sure I didn't lose them. And I didn't lose

21 them. But they wouldn't be back and to

22 replace them would be near impossible.
Page 242

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. SURRENA: It'd take you years.

2 MEMBER WHITE: Yes. It takes a

3 long time. And the guys that are left are not

4 out looking for jobs. The guys that walk in

5 and tell you they know everything about air

6 conditioning and they're here to save you,

7 glad you came in, there's the door.

8 And there are a few technicians

9 that are -- because you look for the diamonds

10 in the rough. But, along, one of the things

11 that one of the sides here, it is an evolving

12 field. It's becoming more complicated. It is

13 becoming more technical. Electronics and

14 electronic controllers, electronic

15 communicated thermostats, it is becoming a

16 more challenging field, just interesting some

17 people.

18 But to reach out for the young

19 people today and pull them in, it's just not

20 that high profile prestigious you're going to

21 be an air conditioner man. Some of them, I'll

22 teach you everything you know. They all want
Page 243

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to be rocket scientists and things like that.

2 MR. RAWALD: Elizabeth's had her

3 hand up for a while.

4 MEMBER NOLL: I have a question. 

5 And I think I know the answer to it but I'm

6 going to ask it anyways. You mentioned that

7 you call up your wholesaler and ask him, this

8 is my scenario, give me compliant product

9 basically or give me my options.

10 MEMBER WHITE: Mm-hmm.

11 MEMBER NOLL: Is that by and large

12 what contractor do? Or is it --

13 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn

14 Hourahan. Contractors primarily sell what the

15 distributor has. Contractors are not

16 stocking. And so if the distributor doesn't

17 have it or recommend it he doesn't have it

18 available, by and large, for him to sell to

19 his customer unless it's a planned replacement

20 for some time in the future.

21 And then you can place any order

22 you want through the distributor if you go
Page 244

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 through the factory.

2 MEMBER NOLL: That might not be

3 what I asked. I was saying do you rely on the

4 distributor to give you your options of what

5 would qualify or are you calling them up

6 saying well, I want X, Y or Z piece?

7 MEMBER HOURAHAN: It depends.

8 MEMBER WHITE: It goes both ways. 

9 MEMBER NOLL: I knew that was an

10 answer.

11 MEMBER WHITE: Well, it goes both

12 ways.

13 MEMBER NOLL: Because I mean, I'm

14 thinking --

15 MEMBER WHITE: Let's look at it

16 this way. I'm the guy there that saw the

17 house and I'm going to do a load calculation. 

18 So from that I have that information and I'm

19 going to say, Steve, I got a house, I need

20 3-ton. It's an upflow, what do you got?

21 He's going to look in his computer

22 and he's going to say, well, I've got one of
Page 245

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 these in stock and one of these in stock, and

2 one of these in stock in 13. I've got this in

3 14. I've got this in 16. And here's your

4 package for this, your hardware.

5 So it all amounts to this, this. 

6 Okay, and it's here. If you want it today you

7 can have it today. Great. I'll put my price

8 together, talk to the customer.

9 I might, in some instances, in a

10 bigger project -- we had a project that was

11 120 apartments. Thank God we didn't get it. 

12 But, okay, now we have an engineering

13 background. So I did more of the legwork on

14 that because I wanted to be able to go -- if

15 was enough numbers that I could go to.

16 And, personally, I don't think

17 it's fair to go to you guys and say do all

18 this design work three times. Only one of you

19 is going to get it.

20 So in some instances I will do

21 that. But most of the time in the kind of

22 garden variety operation, unless I'm a big
Page 246

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 operation, if I'm the guy with 50 trucks, then

2 I probably am buying inventory.

3 I probably have a certain number

4 of units in the warehouse so we're not going

5 to supply houses all the time picking stuff

6 up. But we can load the truck and they're

7 ready to go the next day. But most

8 contractors are not that big operation.

9 MEMBER NOLL: Oh, that's

10 interesting.

11 MR. RAWALD: John Hurst?

12 MR. HURST: John Hurst from

13 Lennox. I think the best way to think about

14 it is if you're a consumer you go to Home

15 Depot. I need a box of nails. I go to where

16 the nails are, I go get a box, I scan it and

17 I walk out. I knew what I needed.

18 And then sometimes, in some cases,

19 you say I need a whatever, you buy it and you

20 leave. You don't need a consult. You don't

21 need to know if it's compliant or if it passes

22 a regulation.
Page 247

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Sometimes you go in for kitchen

2 cabinets, carpet. You need a consult. You

3 need options. I think it's the same way. We

4 have retail locations. Most of us have retail

5 locations. And you get contractors in that

6 want something very specific, and then

7 sometimes they need help with configuring the

8 job.

9 As an example, my old home in

10 Atlanta had a GE furnace, a Rheem air

11 conditioner, a Goodman furnace and a Carrier

12 air conditioner. How that combination was

13 created, I have no idea. And what coils they

14 were matched with, no clue.

15 But I don't think that's uncommon. 

16 You probably see mix-matched systems and they

17 range from 1980 to late 90's. So that's kind

18 of how it happens.

19 MEMBER NOLL: But also I'm hearing

20 though is that there's a significant dialogue

21 that's going on between the contractor and

22 distributor as to -- the contractor in the
Page 248

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 field -- as to what I have and the distributor

2 saying this will --

3 MR. HURST: Maybe.

4 MEMBER NOLL: -- let you, this

5 will work with what you need.

6 MR. HURST: Maybe, maybe not.

7 MEMBER NOLL: Maybe not?

8 MR. HURST: I'm sure --

9 MR. MELCHI: This is John Melchi

10 from HARDI. It's my understanding that, yes,

11 there's a conversation oftentimes going on. 

12 But it's very selective. The information that

13 Chuck is going to share with his wholesaler is

14 going to be very selective, correct?

15 MEMBER WHITE: Oh, sure.

16 MR. MELCHI: You're not going to

17 share.

18 MEMBER WHITE: Right.

19 MR. MELCHI: So --

20 MEMBER WHITE: I'm looking for a

21 3-ton system and I give -- no offense. We

22 have a relationship and I love my wholesalers. 
Page 249

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 But I'm not so sure about Bob out of a truck

2 dock that he doesn't know somebody in another

3 outfit.

4 I mean, we're all contractors we

5 all know each other but we all hate each other

6 too. And my customers are my customers and I

7 don't want anybody to have an avenue to get to

8 them with another price or another story or

9 steal my customers.

10 So I'm -- I give them information

11 but I try to give them just what they need,

12 and really, nothing more. And I don't like,

13 personally, I don't really like everything

14 that's little job sets.

15 In other words, it's my office and

16 I'll take care of it. There's several reasons

17 for that. But that also secures my job sites. 

18 My client base is secure. And I probably do

19 have wholesalers that I'm okay with. It was

20 a relationship. In fact, I do have one that

21 I'd give him the keys to my house.

22 MR. HURST: But you also said
Page 250

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 wholesalers. Plural.

2 MEMBER WHITE: Sure.

3 MR. HURST: It's John Hurst. I

4 think that's important also.

5 MEMBER WHITE: Sure.

6 MR. HURST: And you're not unusual

7 in the industry?

8 MEMBER WHITE: Oh, no. No. Most

9 of the contractors are going to have --

10 they're going to have their number one guy. 

11 But it's not always the number one guy.

12 MR. RAWALD: Now George has been

13 waiting for a while.

14 MEMBER WHITE: I think Charlie's

15 had his hand up also, so.

16 MR. RAWALD: Oh, I'm sorry.

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes, I just wanted

18 to make a couple points on some of the

19 questions that have been posed from an Agency

20 perspective.

21 On record-keeping, we've talked to

22 our members. We've been talking to them since
Page 251

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 2011 about what was in the framework document. 

2 They all keep records. I don't know

3 percentage but a fair number of them keep

4 paper records only.

5 Members have a database. The

6 database is not typically searchable. So they

7 may enter things in the computer but if

8 someone said to you where is Serial Number

9 123XYZ they couldn't answer that.

10 So I just wanted to make sure that

11 you understand -- and this is from information

12 from -- I mean, I've been doing a presentation

13 on the Hustings for years by this. And I

14 always say how many of you keep records? All

15 hands go up.

16 And now all those who keep, you

17 know, records, some hands go down. How many

18 can search by serial number or whatever, more

19 hands come down. So that's just something I

20 think you need to understand.

21 MR. EISNER: I know. Do you think

22 it's changing, this technology?
Page 252

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. MCCRUDDEN: It's changing but,

2 you know, as Chuck said, it's the cost of

3 doing business. A computer database is

4 expensive. There's a lot of vendors out there

5 but it's, if you've been getting away without

6 it, you'll be doing it yourself.

7 On the Energy guide label how, you

8 know, is it shown now? It's not a priority to

9 show right now. Right now you only have to

10 show the information contained on the energy

11 guide label, and that's in the manufacturer's

12 stuff. The requirement to show them the

13 actual energy guide label isn't until January

14 1, 2015.

15 Warranty cards. There was a

16 question on warranty cards. We have a

17 substantial number of members who fill out the

18 warranty cards with their business address. 

19 They don't want to show that information to

20 the manufacturers because, not pointing any

21 fingers, some manufacturers have a tendency to

22 share that information with a preferred
Page 253

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 dealer.

2 And a lot of the contractors feel

3 that their customers are being poached by

4 someone who has a better relationship with

5 their man -- oh, yes. So we have some big

6 ones who fill out the warranty card with their

7 business address.

8 Now they -- with internal they can

9 figure out what the warranty situation is. 

10 But that is a situation within the industry

11 where there is some distrust. But that's

12 internal to the industry and that, I don't

13 think, in terms of policy it doesn't really

14 come up.

15 MEMBER WHITE: And that could just

16 be a perception that you --

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: No, it's a

18 substantial number of contractors.

19 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, from what I

20 understand -- a perception.

21 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. On permits, 

22 frequency of permits being pulled, it's the
Page 254

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 enforcement that's sometimes lacking. So

2 permits are always required. Permits are

3 always required on a replacement part.

4 Permits aren't always enforced so

5 that's an issue. I just want to make sure

6 it's out there. I thought the assignment for

7 us was also to look at what do we want, what

8 did ACCA want.

9 And I went back and I looked at

10 our comments to the NOPR in 2011. And they --

11 and what we said then really hasn't changed. 

12 Simplicity, limited burdens on the contractors

13 because of all this stuff I just mentioned,

14 using the homeowner as a double check.

15 And that's where the map comes in,

16 the FCC label. You know, having that

17 homeowner the ability to sort of figure out,

18 hey, this isn't right for that unscrupulous

19 contractor who's out there.

20 The database, consumers are a lot

21 more savvy, so that's a way to achieve a

22 practical and enforceable proposal that we've
Page 255

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 put together.

2 We would love to see every job

3 require our QI standard. I don't think we

4 would get that through but that would

5 guarantee that every job that has a 13-SEER

6 condenser purchased for it would achieve

7 13-SEER, every 14-SEER would be 14-SEER.

8 Because we know that this

9 equipment out of the box would not properly

10 size or install. It could lose 30 percent of

11 that rating when installed.

12 MR. RAWALD: I think that goes to

13 the point that Carolyn made before about,

14 earlier about that. So you mentioned your QI?

15 MEMBER NOLL: Quality

16 Installation.

17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So it's -- well,

18 the official title is ACCA -- ACCA, ansi --

19 MEMBER HOURAHAN: It's an Ansi

20 standard so the official tile is Ansi/ACCA 5,

21 numerical 5, QI, and hyphen 2010. So it's the

22 HVAC Quality Installation standard. And it's
Page 256

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 developed through an open consensus process.

2 

3 The first standard came out in

4 2007 and was updated in 2010. And now it's in

5 the process of a coalition of stakeholders

6 reviewing it for potential changes for 2015.

7 MR. RAWALD: So that's a way of, a

8 method, Doug, of making sure that the

9 as-installed meets what was represented on the

10 packaging?

11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Right.

12 MEMBER WHITE: Correct.

13 MR. MCCRUDDEN: But there's no

14 widget that you can plug in --

15 MR. RAWALD: Right.

16 MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- and once the

17 installation is done it tells you a number. 

18 If we had that work would be simple.

19 MR. RAWALD: It would be, problem

20 would be solved.

21 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes.

22 MR. RAWALD: It's that simple. 
Page 257

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Okay. And then, Jordan, did you have a

2 comment or did you just want to punch Charlie

3 to the floor?

4 MEMBER DORIA: Yes, no, no. One

5 thing that I just wanted to just make sure

6 we're very, very clear on, to Elizabeth's

7 point of, you know, yesterday there was this

8 dialogue between the contractor and the

9 distributor. But it's never about give me a

10 compliant part. It's about finding something

11 that fits the need.

12 Whether it complies is a given,

13 right? Now that has long been the case. So

14 when I heard you say that I just wanted to

15 make absolutely sure that everybody's aware

16 that to the extent there's a dialogue it's

17 about finding the right product. Compliance

18 is simply not a factor.

19 MR. RAWALD: Okay.

20 MEMBER NOLL: Not now. Right now?

21 MEMBER DORIA: Correct. And I

22 think, as Steve Porter tells our supplier, I
Page 258

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 think they're the ones who are at the jobs

2 troubleshooting the job. You know, we're not

3 at the job troubleshooting the job.

4 They're coming back for the

5 request for maybe further information or

6 research on product. But they're the ones

7 closest to the job.

8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Ray, do you

9 have one?

10 MEMBER ELLIS: Just a quick part. 

11 I think it's pretty evident from Chuck's

12 presentation and it's much similar in the

13 utility industry where you have giant IOUs and

14 real small cooperatives.

15 One size will not fit all. And so

16 when we look at this regulation and what we're

17 going to recommend you're going to have to

18 have some leniency or caveats in there for

19 small contractors and small distributors and

20 such because there is a major difference in

21 how they can do business, mainly because of

22 cost.
Page 259

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. One of the

2 questions we had for folks is the interaction

3 sales and how that impacts installers and

4 contractors. Because I don't have any

5 experience with that at all. So how is that

6 playing out with you folks? Here's Charlie

7 McCrudden.

8 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So -- oh, Charlie

9 McCrudden with ACCA. We were, I think we were

10 at one of the meetings, a couple meetings

11 before. And then everyone had their computer

12 and a lot of people went on Craigslist and

13 eBay and found equipment online.

14 It happens. I've had contractors

15 tell me, because I've asked this question,

16 that they've had customers say, hey, I got

17 this condenser unit on eBay, what would you

18 charge to install?

19 Most of our members will say,

20 sorry. I mean, to them that would be like

21 saying, calling your dentist and saying, hey,

22 I bought some amalgam online, you know, I need
Page 260

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a filling. What would you charge to install

2 that?

3 Most -- but it's out there. It

4 happens. I don't want to overstate the

5 problem but it is, it's a dirty little secret.

6 MR. EISNER: Is it common, in

7 other words, when you tell them you've looked

8 at their project and you would recommend the

9 following piece of equipment and then they

10 call you back the next day and they say I

11 checked online?

12 MR. MCCRUDDY: Sure. Of course. 

13 Sure it does. I don't have numbers on how

14 prevalent that is.

15 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, but -- it's

16 Chuck White -- condensing units probably are

17 not the biggest. But other parts, coils,

18 motors, things, other components, people will

19 -- you'll show up and I got this, I need this

20 air conditioner.

21 Okay well, it's going to be --

22 well, I got it in the garage and they open the
Page 261

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 garage door and there it is. They've already

2 bought it. There's no warranty on it on

3 Internet sales. And, as a contractor, I don't

4 know how you sized it. I don't know if it's

5 right for you and I'll walk away from it.

6 But that -- I've got to do that

7 with more arms. It isn't just this

8 discussion. It's gotten so quotes are

9 nebulous. That air conditioner may be the

10 brand for your house at such and such, maybe

11 the SEER level, but no sizing, no model

12 numbers, no.

13 Because you're going to come back

14 to talk about it later and they're going to

15 say well I found that model online. It's X

16 dollars and, you know, that's -- then the

17 battle starts.

18 And occasionally that model will

19 be sitting in the garage because you can buy

20 them. And when you're in the southwest I

21 don't know how you're going to stop somebody

22 from shipping something from Butte, Montana
Page 262

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 down to Clearwater, Florida. But it's going

2 to happen.

3 MR. RAWALD: You know you will.

4 MEMBER WHITE: No, I won't.

5 MR. RAWALD: Oh, it's my way of

6 testing you.

7 MEMBER WHITE: Yes.

8 MR. RAWALD: Karen, you had a

9 follow-up?

10 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes, so this is

11 Karen with Rheem. Just a couple other things. 

12 I have a couple really good friends who are

13 contractors and one of them used to be a boss

14 of mine at Rheem.

15 And so I talked with him about

16 this issue a lot and what's he think he's

17 going to do. And just a couple points he made

18 is, you know, he can buy two condensing units,

19 two coils exactly alike, same model number,

20 same manufacturer.

21 But his price is rarely the same

22 job to job because so much of that price is
Page 263

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 dependent upon labor. And also that most

2 homeowners -- well, he said all homeowners,

3 actually, were his words -- consider 13-SEER

4 high efficiency because it's so much more

5 efficient than what they have in their home.

6 And I asked him, both of these

7 people, how they thought out -- one is a very

8 organized guy and he's got spreadsheets. The

9 other guy, very bright. Very bright young

10 man, but it's just he and his wife. And he

11 files with a manilla folder, last name first,

12 and sticks it in a filing cabinet, paperwork.

13 He's a one-man guy. His wife

14 helps him out when she can. And they have a

15 couple kids. But that's his whole filing

16 system. He said I can't go in and pull based

17 upon what I've installed. I can only go and

18 pull my job.

19 And, he says, mine's, you know,

20 I'm a small guy. I can't invest in a computer

21 system. So he has filing cabinets and that's

22 how he files. Now, if he grows and gets to
Page 264

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the point where he can hire a couple

2 technicians, which he's trying to do, but he

3 doesn't -- he can't afford that yet.

4 So he cannot tell you probably his

5 wholesaler could maybe, but he uses a couple,

6 could more likely tell him what he's

7 installed, that he can't unless he goes and

8 pulls every one out of the folder and goes

9 through the paperwork.

10 So just a couple things I wanted

11 to add to the conversation about the realities

12 of the market.

13 MR. RAWALD: Karen, that raises a

14 question for me. Do you a sense of how long

15 he maintains those folders? And I guess

16 Charlie and Glenn just --

17 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes it's like it's

18 our business, but yes, I doubt it. It's a big

19 question. I can ask him and I don't doubt

20 there's this annual pulling process that

21 happens.

22 MR. RAWALD: Well, essentially, at
Page 265

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 some point, the files are going to outlive the

2 size of his house, right, so they're going to

3 have to be moved.

4 MS. MEYERS: Right, right. This

5 is a small guy though so I don't know. It's

6 a good question. 

7 MR. ROCKY: So Bryan Rocky. And

8 my question, and we all have our own opinions

9 but I'd like maybe Glenn and Chuck to talk

10 about their view of the contractor turnover

11 these days.

12 So many contractors come in every

13 year, so many go out of business. And my

14 perspective is mine, and I'm not going to put

15 that on the group. But I'd like to hear from

16 the guys that are doing program and contract

17 organizations talk about that.

18 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Well, Chuck made

19 -- this is Glenn Hourahan, ACCA. Chuck made

20 a reference about the shortage we have in our

21 industry, and that's true. And it is dire.

22 But to a certain extent, and he
Page 266

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 also mentioned as well, part of the problem is

2 that we don't so much have a shortage of

3 technicians as we have excess of business

4 owners.

5 And what happens is is that you

6 may have a smart tech who thinks he's smarter

7 than his boss. And he sees he's making 25

8 bucks an hour and the boss is charging out

9 whatever it is, a hundred and a quarter an

10 hour. He says, I can do the same thing myself

11 with my own truck.

12 And what happens is he does that. 

13 He goes out, has a magnetic sign, and he

14 starts to working for himself. He might

15 steal one or two other guys to go with him. 

16 Now he's started his own business.

17 He doesn't know how to run that

18 business as a business. So he doesn't know

19 about record keeping. He doesn't know how to

20 properly price the job, to amortize the cost

21 of overhead for his truck, his tools, his

22 training and everything else that needs to be
Page 267

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 done.

2 And so what happens is, it's not

3 unsurprising, that in about two, three, four

4 years' time he's out of business because he

5 just physically ran through all his cash. And

6 now he's working for someone else again,

7 wondering what happened, I thought I'd make a

8 good living.

9 So there is a high turnover. When

10 you look at the -- you almost do the split. 

11 You know, if you look at our membership, what

12 is it? Average ten years or more for our

13 members?

14 So it's roughly ten years or more

15 for how long our members, the ACCA members

16 have been in business. And if you can make it

17 to five years, you're doing something right. 

18 But you're in jeopardy most every year until

19 the five years. You're still in jeopardy

20 afterwards but at least, by the five-year

21 period you've figured out what it takes to be

22 able to properly price a job.
Page 268

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 And, you notice, I didn't talk

2 anything about properly do a job. With some

3 of those technicians they know what they're

4 doing. What I'm talking about the part of can

5 continue to run it as a business.

6 And that's why there's a high

7 turnover. And the infrastructure, I think

8 it's the SIC code's almost 200,000 for

9 contractors. 200,000 businesses in the United

10 States.

11 MEMBER WHITE: It's plumbing too.

12 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Excuse me?

13 MEMBER WHITE: It's plumbing too.

14 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Yes, and

15 plumbing. But that's just because

16 differentiate. We hazard a guess that we

17 think professional contractors is in the order

18 of about 40,000 to 60,000. 

19 Professional being they have

20 licenses, they have business trucks, that

21 they've been in business for a year or two and

22 they're likely to be in business for a year or
Page 269

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 two.

2 So that' 40 to 60 but there's

3 anywhere, at least 100 maybe up to 200,000

4 contractors out there because this is the guy

5 who used to work for a boss and put a shingle

6 out and he's had a business in a second year

7 and no one will know for another year or two

8 he's pulling out of business and they lead to

9 the accounts.

10 MEMBER SACHS: I have some data. 

11 This is Harvey. And a couple of decades ago,

12 it's long enough ago that there's not any

13 confidentiality associated with, I actually

14 commissioned a survey of contractors through

15 Penton which has a large group of controlled

16 circulation magazines available to anybody who

17 will halfway show he's actually in the

18 business.

19 But mainly that's turnover 25

20 percent a year. Does that scare you?

21 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So this is

22 Gary. I'd like to make an observation about
Page 270

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Internet sales. I can see how you might well

2 buy a motor or relay, maybe some control

3 component over the Internet. But if you're

4 going to buy a whole condensing unit or a dry

5 unit as you folks call it, there are very few

6 individuals that can install that themselves.

7 You have to connect the

8 refrigerant lines, pump down the system,

9 charge it. It takes a professional contractor

10 to do that. And professional contractors,

11 then, know where the installed that equipment.

12 MR. HURST: John Hurst. Well, it

13 takes a professional contractor to do right. 

14 There are plenty of unprofessional, unlicensed

15 that'll do it on a phonecall and a white bash.

16 And I'm not saying it's pervasive. 

17 I'm not saying it's a big chunk of the

18 industry. But I'd be willing to bet anybody

19 in this room that I can go on the Internet

20 right now, have a condensing unit dropped off

21 in my driveway and have it installed by this

22 weekend. And it's usually done right.
Page 271

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Wow. Well that

2 could -- that comes as a surprise to me

3 because it would -- the rest would be a

4 rabbit, so it's no surprise to hear.

5 (Simultaneous speaking)

6 MR. HURST: Yes, I could find the

7 right one and it terrifies me. But it's a

8 reality.

9 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes, but I

10 would think that I would have to call around

11 to find somebody willing to do that. Yes, I

12 probably could find someone.

13 MEMBER CLARK: The Web sites will

14 lead you, in many cases, to --

15 MR. RAWALD: That's Gary, right?

16 MEMBER CLARK: -- an agreeable

17 contractor. So it's not like you have to go

18 find somebody. You just say I'm in this zip

19 code, here's two or three guys. Call two or

20 three guys. It's that simple.

21 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena. All

22 you have to do is know somebody down the
Page 272

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 street that works for an air conditioning

2 company and is willing to do it in the

3 evening. You've got good chances that will

4 happen.

5 MEMBER CLARK: Sure.

6 MR. SURRENA: Guys like to

7 moonlight. They think their boss is making

8 all the money. And they think they can make

9 it that evening.

10 MEMBER CLARK: No, he can use his

11 boss' truck and his boss' parts --

12 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay, so this

13 is Gary again. Then let me carry my question

14 or thinking one step further. All right, so

15 there are these individuals around that will

16 install equipment that I buy over the

17 Internet.

18 They might equally well go down to

19 the wholesaler and buy the condensing unit and

20 put it in for me. I mean, that's the

21 contractor individual that we're going to have

22 trouble, I think, working with trying to
Page 273

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 achieve compliance with this regulation.

2 Because they're disinclined,

3 perhaps, to keep records reported or do you

4 things strictly, according to the book. On

5 the other hand, if there is some mechanism

6 related to the sale of that product to them

7 from the wholesaler or Internet seller or

8 whomever that obliges them to report

9 information that might be different.

10 So the case that comes to mind is

11 when I go to the drugstore and buy Sudafed. 

12 They want to know who I am. And I have to

13 tell them. Otherwise, I don't walk away with

14 the Sudafed. Yes?

15 MR. HURST: John Hurst with

16 Lennox. Let me use a, maybe a controversial

17 analogy with gun control laws that have been

18 passed that you're only supposed to have a

19 certain amount of bullets in a magazine.

20 I own a rifle. I will comply with

21 the law because I'm a law abiding citizen. I

22 can't see a gang-banger on the side of the
Page 274

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 street saying six, seven, eight, nine, I got

2 to stop at ten because it's the law, when I'm

3 going to go out and do my drive-by shooting.

4 So the analogy is for people that

5 don't cheat aren't going to cheat. And it's

6 not Charlie's membership, right, it's we can

7 -- you know, we talked about permitting.

8 And if you look at permitting

9 today, we talked about carrots and sticks. 

10 Well, if I want to abide by the law I've got

11 to do down to the courthouse, stand in line,

12 pay the fee, pay the technician that's

13 standing in the line to pay the fee while the

14 majority of my competitors are going out and

15 doing it without a permit and not incurring

16 the cost. And so --

17 MR. CLARK: Well, that's what

18 makes it so hard. We can lay on all these

19 requirements for the people who are going to

20 abide by the law anyway. There's no doubt

21 that you're going to do what's right. You're

22 going to follow the right license and you
Page 275

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 bought a plane ticket to sit here. So I know

2 you're doing the right thing.

3 MR. HURST: I'm loving every

4 minute of it.

5 MR. CLARK: So --

6 MEMBER PORTER: Steve Porter. I

7 agree. I mean, when you talk about going to

8 that exception, the majority of the jobs are

9 done by good contractors. Let's not design

10 something for the exception.

11 As Chuck said, you're never going

12 to clean it up. There's not -- it's out

13 there. It's always going to be out there

14 unless the law is totally changed. So let's

15 not design to the exception.

16 We've got a great role here. I

17 mean, everybody just wants to know how are we

18 supposed to do it. Let's just explain how

19 you're supposed to do it and move forward.

20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay, so this

21 is Gary again. And I've got some experience

22 in this area with the California swimming pool
Page 276

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 pump regulations which are

2 application-specific and really is the

3 contractor that knows whether or not the

4 California regulations have been complied with

5 or not.

6 And I think, again, regulations

7 are perhaps a bad analogy.

8 MEMBER CLARK: As I said they

9 were.

10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: The only reason

11 I suggest we try and be comprehensive and deep

12 reaching with this is to protect the good

13 contractors that are law abiding.

14 Because the biggest complaint of

15 the pool contractors in California that abide

16 by the regulations are those many other

17 contractors that don't. So as a spokesperson

18 for the utilities, yes, I would agree with

19 you.

20 I don't think, necessarily, we

21 have to be all completely inclusive. On the

22 other hand, with respect and consideration for
Page 277

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the honest contractors, I think we have to

2 hear from them about how deep they want to go

3 with this regulation so they're not subject to

4 unfair competition and uneven playing field.

5 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug. 

6 So as I'm listening to this, what I'm hearing

7 is the struggle is that we don't want to

8 create kind of this black market over in the

9 center for people to operate outside of the

10 radar because they want to avoid the expense

11 of regulation.

12 But we do want the enforcement

13 program to operate so that it minimizes the

14 number of people that are going to blow off

15 the law. And so we've got to balance this and

16 when we do, and it's very difficult, from

17 where I sit here in Washington, D.C. to figure

18 out what the right balance is and that's why

19 we need to hear more about that.

20 MR EISNER: If I could throw in

21 here now, it's time to think about things like

22 putting burdens on anybody, but helping the
Page 278

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Department find the ones who are not doing the

2 job well, like who are installing devices

3 illegally.

4 You know the industry very, very

5 well. You know how people are violating

6 rules. How can we find those people and start

7 getting a message out there, we will find you. 

8 You will pay a penalty for this?

9 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave

10 from Allied. I think one of the keys to this,

11 and part of the question's around definitions

12 is if there's a clear definition where it is

13 simple to understand and we can segregate good

14 from bad as easily as possible it will not be

15 a huge problem going forward.

16 But if we have this huge overlap

17 and all of these idiosyncracies that go along

18 with it, it is going to be very difficult to

19 enforce.

20 MEMBER CLARK: Which -- this is

21 Gary from Goodman -- which, for instance, was

22 kind of the whole point of the FTC label that
Page 279

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 we had talked about at one time or if, in the

2 south the hang tag had to have, with the

3 minimal weighing on that scale, the minimal

4 weighing was at 14.

5 That'd be pretty simple for people

6 to figure out. If it doesn't start with a 14

7 and I'm sitting in Tallahassee, Florida, then

8 I'm probably in trouble. But we didn't get

9 that because the FTC and the DOE guys said

10 that wouldn't be workable.

11 But that's the kind of thing that

12 we're looking for, something that is painfully

13 obvious to people whether or not they're

14 compliant or not.

15 MR. RAWALD: I do want to clarify,

16 Gary, that -- this is Doug -- I'm not really

17 certain that the DOE and the FTC got together

18 and decided that isn't workable for the

19 labeling rule but we can talk more about that.

20 But we are where we are with the

21 labeling at the moment. So, Jordan, did you

22 have a point?
Page 280

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER DORIA: Yes, I mean I think

2 the point you just made is an important one. 

3 But I think when we consider enforcement

4 there's a couple different ways to approach

5 it. There is punishing the offenders.

6 But there's also approaches to

7 enforcement that actually make it far less

8 likely if actions can happen in the first

9 place.

10 MR. RAWALD: Yes.

11 MEMBER DORIA: And I think as a

12 general principle that's always a very good

13 thing to do with enforcement. We punish drug

14 offenders, small ones, but a bigger goal often

15 is not putting drugs in their hands in the

16 first place, right?

17 And that's why the people who

18 traffic in the larger quantities get the

19 bigger sentences. The same principle holds

20 true here, I believe, that if you can make it

21 far less likely for people to commit

22 infractions in the first place we've gone a
Page 281

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 very long way towards achieving our

2 enforcement goals, I believe.

3 So, I think, to point out that

4 hand gun rule that I think is an open one, but

5 I think that's a very important thing for us

6 to consider here, is making it less likely

7 infractions can happen.

8 MEMBER NOLL: Can you give us a

9 for instance?

10 MR. RAWALD: That's Elizabeth

11 Noll. MEMBER DORIA: Yes, so --

12 MR. RAWALD: Jordan, do you want

13 to go ahead on this line again?

14 MEMBER DORIA: Yes. The for

15 instance would be some approach where, you

16 know, the 14-SEER hang tag in the south, using

17 that as one example, that that is effectively

18 all but -- if that's all that's on the market

19 in the south it's going to be very, very hard

20 -- not to say impossible -- very hard and

21 ultimately uneconomical, right?

22 Chuck did a good job of talking
Page 282

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 about market pressures. Yes could you get

2 something from other than, you said, adding

3 all those things in? The theoretical impetus

4 behind violating the law is that it is lower

5 cost.

6 You add the cost to violating it

7 and now all of a sudden it becomes less

8 economical and just plain harder. So I think

9 that would be the approach, is to effectively

10 not make it easy for people to get products

11 that don't comply in the regions in which they

12 operate. So that would be the approach.

13 MR. RAWALD: Yes, Surrena?

14 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena, AHB. 

15 As Chuck has said earlier, a lot of expense is

16 reactive. He reacted to a problem that

17 happened. It's not a planned job. For

18 planned jobs that would be something

19 different. But reactive job, if a unit's not

20 for sale in that region and he has to react

21 quickly to replace it, it's not going to

22 replace it with something that shouldn't be.
Page 283

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 So that solves these

2 fly-by-nights, two guys with a truck, whatever

3 you want to say. That solves them putting in

4 something less than they should unless they've

5 driven up to Minnesota to bring it back down.

6 They're not doing that. So that

7 narrows the purpose to where it's at. If it's

8 not available you can't get it.

9 MEMBER ROCKY: So -- I'm sorry. I

10 have to interject. And I know there are other

11 people talking about this. If you're --

12 MR. RAWALD: This is Bryan Rocky?

13 MEMBER ROCKY: Bryan Rocky. If

14 you're a dealer selling air conditioning to a

15 contractor, you know, ACCA member or not, in

16 Blackville, Oklahoma and you can sell only

17 14-SEER air conditioners.

18 But 12 miles away in Ark City,

19 Kansas you can sell 13-SEER air conditioners

20 and I'm not going to worry necessarily about

21 where I buy it, where I install it, one way it

22 doesn't matter. The other way, it makes all
Page 284

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the difference in the world.

2 And there's -- we have to be

3 careful of the guy going across, 12 miles away

4 or in Ark City across the street, which

5 happens other places, in the same town. This

6 is legal on the north side of the street and

7 it's illegal on the south side of the street.

8 Okay, manufacturers can't control

9 that. Distributors can't control that. The

10 contractor's the only one who's going to know

11 where it goes and where do you install it.

12 We have to make it easy, simple,

13 straight forward and provide them the right

14 information. How do we do that when it can be

15 not talking Internet sales from Minnesota or

16 Montana to Florida? It's the guy across the

17 street on the other side of town or 20 minutes

18 away by truck.

19 MEMBER BALLO: I'd like to -- this

20 is Tim Ballo. My concern here is I'm hearing

21 that I sense the contractor's really the only

22 one who knows where this thing ends up.
Page 285

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER WHITE: The homeowner does

2 too.

3 MEMBER BALLO: Well, yes, but the

4 contractor also regards the information of

5 what he sold and to whom and where it was as

6 very confidential information. So unwilling

7 to share even in some cases with the

8 manufacturer.

9 Where can that information go in a

10 way that the contractor is comfortable with it

11 being aggregated or shared with only certain

12 people so that we can some assurance of where

13 the unit ended up but people who don't need to

14 find that out find that out?

15 MEMBER PORTER: Certainly not

16 HARDI.

17 (Simultaneous speaking)

18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Transmitting

19 information across electronically is exposed

20 everywhere. And for a lot of these guys this

21 is their business. They sell their business

22 this is what they sell, their customers. And
Page 286

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that's what makes them so anxious about this

2 releasing this information.

3 Same thing with a distributor. If

4 you've got a counter man who's really good and

5 he's keeping his own records, he goes to

6 another distributor and he can bring his book,

7 so to speak. So, and that's really corporate

8 espionage, so to speak, at a very low level. 

9 But that happens, that type of situation

10 happens too.

11 So that's really why there's so

12 much reluctance, I think, to share this

13 information.

14 MEMBER PORTER: Steve Porter,

15 Harvey. I want to understand what you were,

16 you had a lot emotion, Bryan, so explain to me

17 what you were really trying to get at by the

18 border and how they get, do you think that's

19 a huge problem?

20 Or do you think it's -- what was

21 it you were really trying to get there because

22 I'm -- other than communicating where the line
Page 287

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 is to the contractor, do you see a big

2 problem?

3 MR. RAWALD: Were you responding

4 to Jordan's --

5 MEMBER PORTER: I wasn't sure if

6 he was or not. I wasn't quite clear what you

7 were trying to get there. I'm sorry.

8 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes, this is Bryan. 

9 And, again, I apologize for being a little

10 passionate about this. Like other

11 manufacturers we're trying to communicate to

12 our customers through distribution.

13 And everyone is concerned,

14 everyone is confused. And our issues that

15 we've talked about is not knowing what's going

16 on. And I deal with 200-some distribution

17 man. And I'm personally a mid-level player in

18 this. I'm not the big market share guy.

19 I'm dealing with 40,000

20 contractors through my six brands. The

21 manufacturers at this table represent roughly

22 98 percent of the central air conditioners. 
Page 288

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Last time I counted there were approximately

2 65 brands represented by these 7

3 manufacturers. And we sell-- I am obvious,

4 Karen can probably tell me or one of you guys

5 can -- about 6 million air conditioners this

6 year.

7 So 250 to 100,000 contractors I

8 have. And I'm trying to understand what I can

9 sell to you as a distributor and we will, in

10 our industry the manufacturers will be very

11 conscious about making sure our distribution

12 partners understand the law, the requirements

13 for us and where we cannot -- and can sell and

14 cannot sell a product.

15 Distribution partners are very

16 straightforward. They know what their

17 customer bases are. They know what the law is

18 going forward. They just redefine new

19 equipment.

20 Contractors, again, do -- the vast

21 majority of them are not out there to screw a

22 customer. They're there to make money like
Page 289

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the distribution partners, like the

2 manufacturers, like the utilities selling

3 electricity and gas.

4 We're all in this to make a

5 living, and don't do that if you screw your

6 customer. We all know that. So you're going

7 to do the best you can.

8 And I don't have the answer for

9 that York guy in Ark City, Kansas of what he

10 can or cannot do in three months or four

11 months. So, yes, it's passionate. Others

12 probably could have said it better. We've got

13 to come up with something quick.

14 Simple is better. I don't know

15 how this is simple when we have heat pumps do

16 one thing, furnaces do one thing, air

17 conditioners do one thing, package units do

18 one thing and we're all funneling this through

19 to the same people. 

20 The DOE database, at lunchtime

21 this afternoon or today, has 1,942,000

22 listings for central air conditioners and heat
Page 290

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 pumps. So communicating that to customers, I

2 don't know. I started off trying to be

3 positive. I still want to be positive. I'm

4 just not sure how we're going to get there.

5 MR. RAWALD: Ray's been waiting

6 for a while.

7 MEMBER ELLIS: It sounds like

8 we're assuming that to enforce this regulation

9 it has to be penalizing somebody to make it

10 work. And, again, I would like us to kind of

11 consider the idea of making an incentive for

12 people to do the right thing. And I think,

13 you know, when I think about the budget at

14 DOE, and we're talking about the greater good.

15 I mean, we're trying to save

16 electricity, overall, across the country and

17 why are we doing that? I'm sure there's

18 several answers to that. But if it is for the

19 greater good, and I know that the Department

20 of Energy's budget is rather sizable, and if

21 the Solyndras and other mistakes that are made

22 -- and I'm not holding that against anybody.
Page 291

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 But if you decide to incentivize

2 the homeowner to purchase the right type of

3 equipment, and you can advertise. I mean --

4 you have the budget to advertise as well to

5 get that message across that if somebody puts

6 in the right size unit, then they're entitled

7 to a certain amount of a rebate or something

8 along that, much like the Cash for Clunkers or

9 whatever that went on for other things.

10 But if it is for the greater good

11 I think that you could find that you would cut

12 the willingness to cut that, or to do wrong,

13 way down. And it would also sell a lot more

14 units for the manufacturers and the

15 distributors and the contractors in the room

16 as well. But, you know, so I'd like us to try

17 to at least think about that aspect of it. I

18 know it might, maybe that's a real crazy idea,

19 but it works pretty well for us.

20 MR. RAWALD: Right, and, Ray, I

21 want to point out that when I was discussing

22 this this morning I pointed out that there are
Page 292

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 both carrots and sticks in our enforcement. 

2 And so we should look at doing that, as far as

3 what dollars and cents arem what we can offer

4 and so there are things that you and I can

5 talk about. But Harvey wants to talk.

6 MEMBER SACHS: I appreciate that

7 Ray and our people, annualy, go through the

8 DOE budget and when you take out basic

9 research, including health, the atomic weapons

10 program, all of high energy physics, EERE is

11 one fingernail trim of budget. This whole

12 area of energy efficiency. And add to that,

13 in fact, that Congress dictates, line by line,

14 how much goes to standards, how much goes to

15 enforcement, and down to a level of way less

16 that $10 million. So --

17 MEMBER ELLIS: Right. Are you --

18 this is Ray Ellis.

19 MEMBER SACHS: -- this is all

20 things that would have to be legislated as

21 legitimate is the concern.

22 MEMBER ELLIS: I understand that. 
Page 293

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I'm fine that DOE has to foot the bill for the

2 whole thing. But just like we do, where we

3 charge a little bit at a wholesale rate where

4 we can get that back, you know, if there was

5 pressure put on the PSEs across the country,

6 even our IOU big brothers could probably be

7 incentivized to allow something like that to

8 occur.

9 MEMBER SACHS: What I wanted to

10 do, though, was run with two threads. One of

11 them was this thread that, if we have a bad

12 installation, including bad ductwork that

13 isn't fixed, and fixing ductwork can be

14 expensive, we've got 30 percent of the

15 performance that's lost. The difference

16 between a 14 and a 13 is roughly 7 percent. 

17 So in context, thing we can have been trying,

18 I salute ACCA and the other contractor groups

19 for all their work on this in trying to do on

20 that end.

21 And I don't salute the builders

22 who insist on putting hip roofs and inadequate
Page 294

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 equipment and duct work in Dallas, but that's

2 a side drive. Because you can't do that stuff

3 right, where it's reaching 130 degrees every

4 afternoon.

5 So just in context, the 14-13, I

6 mean, we have to get right. But, to me,

7 getting it right in part is things that will

8 have the potential to be less of a burden for

9 the professional contractor than the

10 fly-by-night who gets caught. So it's a

11 design element. The last thing I wanted to

12 roll back and ask about is that I just got

13 totally intrigued by Gary's comment on the

14 difficulties that the hang tag is going to

15 have by not having a hard cut off.

16 And I know would get close to

17 today, and I trust, if we actually ask

18 everybody to nod, but as Gary view generally

19 shared, that one of the key elements might be

20 a revised hang tag that simply says, this

21 thing is not certified to perform below --

22 except at installations. I'm sorry, this is
Page 295

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a SEER-14 condensing unit, period.

2 Would that be a helpful thing? Is

3 that something that we be should carrying to

4 do some, so what do we do to get this fixed?

5 MR. AMRANE: Well, Harvey, this is

6 Karim. And as a matter of information, we

7 made that proposal -- presented a proposal to

8 the FTC and DOE. And the FTC was not

9 supportive.

10 MEMBER SACHS: So we don't do

11 magic, but is there any hope that they might

12 rethink it if they were those courts.

13 MR. AMRANE: Again, maybe that's a

14 decision that we need to add with Hampton --

15 MEMBER SACHS: I would talk to

16 them.

17 MR. AMRANE: -- when he --

18 MEMBER SACHS: I would encourage

19 us to put that on the agenda.

20 MR. RAWALD: Understood. So I

21 talked to Hampton Newsome about him possibly

22 coming to an future meeting. I can't
Page 296

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 guarantee this, and I don't want to walk into

2 a bear trap so I'll sort of reflect on the

3 things that we talked about here and how his

4 name's been brought up in vain a number of

5 times, to make sure that he's well aware that

6 if he comes he will, of course -- if somebody

7 slings an arrow, it will not dissuade him from

8 coming. But hopefully he'll come with the

9 answers for those. But I'll see what I can do

10 to get him there.

11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: And this is

12 Dave at Allied. Part of that question could

13 be answered by the response around the

14 definitions.

15 MR. RAWALD: Understood.

16 MEMBER SACHS: Good point. Good

17 point. Thank you, Dave.

18 MR. EISNER: Amy?

19 MEMBER SHEPERD: Right. And this

20 is Amy from AHI. And just to point out too

21 that the EBCA, under the provision for

22 regional standards, talks about the energy
Page 297

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 guides or other methods that make it easy for

2 consumers and installers to use and understand

3 it at the point of installation.

4 So I don't know that necessarily

5 the energy guide's the only answer. So if

6 there was something else that folks wanted to

7 consider that could be even viewed as a safe

8 harbor, that if you provide this there could

9 be assumptions about compliance that go with

10 that. I think there's an add in there.

11 MEMBER SACHS: Amy, if I can just

12 follow up on that. This --

13 MR. RAWALD: That's Harvey.

14 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey. 

15 The fuel economy rates from EPA do not allow

16 any other label. Is there anything in EBCA

17 that would prevent DOE from putting a label

18 on?

19 MEMBER SHEPERD: I don't know

20 about that, but I think that when it says it

21 could include other methods that makes it

22 easy.
Page 298

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is

2 overall, so what I'm hearing you saying is

3 that we can be creative in offering an option

4 that's not a label that could be used to

5 provide information to consumers that could

6 somehow help them understand.

7 MEMBER SHEPERD: Well, it doesn't 

8 have to be an energy guide label is all I'm

9 saying.

10 MR. RAWALD: Well --

11 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena here. 

12 Couldn't it also be DOE's interpretation of

13 the label? Not giving it the variable span

14 that the label shows, but saying that it shall

15 not be less than this part. So if the label

16 goes from 13 to 14.2 and an 14 is the minimal,

17 take the 14.

18 MR. RAWALD: Right, Don. As you

19 were saying, and this goes directly to Karen's

20 question. I think we already said it was a

21 14. This all seems to be a good question, and

22 so one that we'll have with the lawyers to see
Page 299

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 what our options would be on EBCA, because

2 they're the ones who are the most

3 knowledgeable at EBCA. And then we can come

4 back to it and talk about it at the next

5 meeting. I think it's a very good, at least,

6 brainstorm kernel for us. And John has his

7 hand up to --

8 MR. HURST: John Hurst, Lennox. 

9 Can I just mention, in the spirit of

10 simplicity, the answer to Harvey's question is

11 yes, it would simplify it. However, I think

12 we are collectively stuck, because that's not

13 the way the regulation's written. It's just

14 not. And so we're kind of hoping for a

15 different answer, but that's just not the way

16 it's written right now. So, either you have

17 to go back and change the regulation. I think

18 the label reflects what the regulation says.

19 MEMBER SACHS: The FTC reg, or our

20 one?

21 MR. HURST: The FTC.

22 MR. RAWALD: I think, to
Page 300

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 reclarify, John says the FTC label reflects

2 what the DOE regs are, that are in our regular

3 standards.

4 MR. HURST: Yes, but that they are

5 consistent, whether we like it or not, they're

6 consistent.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, they're not.

8 MR. HURST: They're consistent.

9 MR. RAWALD: Well, that's actually

10 our --

11 MEMBER SACHS: What did you say,

12 Erica?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not --

14 MS. MEYERS: She said hey, hey --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not

16 inconsistent, but --

17 MR. HURST: Didn't say they were

18 inconsistent.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But at the same

20 time there's nothing in our regs that talk

21 about a range. They talk about a rating.

22 MR. HURST: But if that convincing
Page 301

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you that --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: The range comes

3 from the label.

4 MR. EISNER: And Ashley, we're

5 going to actually talk about this topic.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good. Can we take

7 a break?

8 MR. EISNER: But let's -- we've

9 been talking for two hours, so if we can take

10 a break I think that would be helpful.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to

12 take a break with us and we'll chat?

13 MR. EISNER: Yes, we're going to

14 take a break until five after three.

15 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter

16 went off the record at 2:50 p.m. and went back

17 on the record at 3:14 p.m.)

18 MR. EISNER: Can I get some

19 answers to some questions. This is being

20 recorded, right?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right, well we

22 are not going to -- and so I'm going to caveat
Page 302

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 this with we won't have all the answers but we

2 have talked it over with all of us. And

3 hopefully this will be helpful for a couple of

4 answers to the questions that you guys asked.

5 And one of the questions that I

6 heard from the parts that I've been hearing,

7 some of the things that Doug has relayed, I

8 think, boils down to, can you manufacture and

9 install condensing units or coils that do not

10 meet the standard when tested as a new

11 combination in accordance with a test

12 proceedure?

13 The simple answer to that one is

14 no. An individual condensing unit or a coil

15 must meet the current federal standard,

16 national or regional, when paired with the

17 appropriate other new part to make a system,

18 when tested in accordance with the DOE test

19 procedure and sample guide.

20 MEMBER MYERS: So, Ashley --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll pause for a

22 minute.
Page 303

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER MYERS: So, Ashley, you're

2 going to have to write that down for me,

3 because I'm not sure what you're saying.

4 MR. EISNER: I was just going to

5 ask her do we want this to --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the

7 Department will take it back and probably work

8 through some words, and maybe issue official

9 guidance on our position, with official words,

10 that this is Programs' ad hoc response without

11 the legal edits on top of it. So you will --

12 MEMBER ROCKY: Could you just

13 restate it again?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.

15 MR. RAWALD: Well, there's more to

16 it, I guess. She's not done.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not done. I

18 just --

19 MR. RAWALD: She paused for a

20 dramatic effect.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so going

22 back to the question, can you manufacture and
Page 304

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 install condensing units or coils that do not

2 meet the standards when tested as a new

3 combination in accordance with our test

4 procedure?

5 Simple answer is no. And

6 individual condensing unit or coil must meet

7 the current federal standard when paired with

8 the appropriate other new part to make a

9 system, when tested, in accordance with the

10 DOE test procedure and standards.

11 DOE understands that individual

12 condensing units or coils may not meet the

13 federal standard when installed in a

14 replacement situation in the field. However,

15 the new individual condensing unit or coil

16 must have the capability of meeting the

17 current standard when tested and rated as a

18 new system, regardless of the fact that it is

19 being installed in an existing system. Okay?

20 MEMBER SACHS: Now what that seems

21 to say, in extreme case, is that if I were to

22 flush the old coil, which might have been a
Page 305

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 SEER-10 coil, and put in a new extension --

2 MR. RAWALD: Speak up, Harvey.

3 MEMBER SACHS: Oh, it seems to say

4 that if I'm doing a replacement condensing

5 unit, and installing that with the existing

6 evaporator after flushing it thoroughly,

7 soldering on a new expansion unit, expansion

8 device, that even though I know that's, at

9 best, a SEER-10 evaporator, that that

10 condensing unit would be a SEER-14 with

11 something that today is legal. That's still

12 a legal installation.

13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And, Harvey, I

14 guess if tested in accordance with the DOE

15 test procedure, which lays out how it should

16 be tested, with what coils it should be tested

17 with, then yes.

18 MEMBER SACHS: But --

19 MR. RAWALD: So not just any coil,

20 but tested in accordance with test procedure

21 which --

22 MEMBER SACHS: So in that case the
Page 306

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 answer would be no, that's not legal, because

2 I'm not testing it with a coil that would be

3 legal at 14 with that condensing unit.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's if

5 you're installing it. That's different,

6 right?

7 MEMBER SACHS: Im installing it. 

8 All right, so the install versus test is --

9 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave

10 at Allied. The question was could you

11 manufacture it, right? And the answer? I

12 didn't hear the --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Any manufacturer

14 and installer.

15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Okay.

16 MR. RAWALD: Right.

17 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So --

18 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Sorry.

19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: -- this is

20 Gary. I think that's a disappointing outcome,

21 because these air conditioning condensing

22 units represented to have really good
Page 307

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 performance when they the way you just

2 described can result in a system that has

3 really bad performance. So that's --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's all based on

5 how they're tested in accordance the test

6 procedure with a new accompanying part.

7 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So I can't

8 disagree with you. But I can certainly

9 express a lot of disappointment about that,

10 because I think that does our country a

11 disservice.

12 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen for

13 Rheem. So we could build a 12-SEER condensing

14 unit and test it with an ECM motor that

15 allowed it to get 13, and it could be shipped

16 in the North. Or if we oversized the coil and

17 tested it with an oversized coil and a ECM

18 that bumped it up to 14, I could legally build

19 that condensing unit, that you know, would

20 only test it with a coil could only get a

21 12-SEER.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would argue that
Page 308

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the provisions of the test procedure won't

2 allow you to get those ratings for a 12-SEER

3 condensing unit.

4 MEMBER MYERS: It'll allow me to

5 get to a 13.

6 MEMBER SACHS: What if it did? If

7 it could?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, but that coil

9 only rating. 

10 MEMBER SACHS: It's got to be a

11 coil only rating --

12 (Simultaneous speaking)

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to argue

14 that you're not going to get what, the ECM,

15 with that coil only, test procedure, because

16 you're pushed.

17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave

18 with Allied. The way that I understand it,

19 the federal minimum efficiency, single-stage,

20 has to be tested as a coil only to meet the

21 minimums.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's the
Page 309

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 second question. Do you want to get there?

2 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: That's for

3 federal minimums. But we've talked about

4 regional.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So our test

6 procedure, I will say it right now, the test

7 procedure doesn't distinguish. It says these

8 units must be tested for the purposes of

9 generating ratings. There's no distinguishing

10 feature about a national standard, or a

11 regional standard. It just says review types

12 of units. This is how you test them.

13 MEMBER MYERS: Okay.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: And this is how

15 you get your rating. Period. It doesn't talk

16 about compliance with the regional standards. 

17 It doesn't talk about compliance with national

18 standards. It just says, I have this type of

19 unit, here's the methodology I go about using

20 to come up with my rated value, my certified

21 rating.

22 MEMBER LATTANZI: So, Matt
Page 310

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Lattanzi, North. So is it -- my original

2 question about a 14-SEER rating in the south

3 using a 13-SEER air conditioner with an ECM,

4 is that question still open or did you answer

5 it?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is still

7 open, in my opinion.

8 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay. That's

9 what I thought. Thank you.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: What this does

11 answer, I believe is, I think there were some

12 questions about condensing units when sold in

13 replacement situations by themselves, and how

14 does that work. And this is saying you can't

15 just indefinitely manufacture coils or

16 condensing units --

17 MEMBER LATTANZI: So in other

18 words, it's to our Dry R-22 Question. That

19 way we have a definitive answer.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's wider.

21 MEMBER LATTANZI: It's wider but

22 --
Page 311

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But, yes, that's

2 what it answers. Okay.

3 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay. Second

4 question.

5 MR. RAWALD: Though, since we're

6 at this, Doug, I want to draw your attention

7 to that part, that Dry R-22 guidance was how

8 you would go about certifying, getting a

9 certified rating for those Dry R-22 units. 

10 And this is still --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's still on

12 the table.

13 MR. RAWALD: That's still an open

14 question on how you would get to certified

15 rated valuefor a Dry R-22 condensing unit. 

16 But the broader question, which is the one I

17 actually answered, which is the fact that when

18 tested, in our test procedure, the condenser

19 must perform at the level that are required by

20 the standard.

21 MR. LATTANZI: Right.

22 MR. RAWLAD An then at
Page 312

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 installation it may function worse because of

2 the coils are going to bring it down. But

3 that's what we were required of the connection

4 I sold.

5 MR. LATTANZI: I got it. Okay,

6 two more questions for Ashley. Matt Lattanzi. 

7 Ashley, where are the department published

8 guidance that clears up both of these

9 questions?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department has

11 heard the concerns. And I think, at least

12 with the question I just answered we will be

13 publishing guidance, articulating the words I

14 just said in our official manner. With

15 regards to some of the other questions you

16 guys have posed we will figuring out how we

17 can best address those. So --

18 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay, thank you.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- that's the best

20 I can do.

21 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, Ashley,

22 this is Gary. Following up, then, on what you
Page 313

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 said, if this unit can be installed in a

2 replacement situation with an existing coil,

3 where the performance is lower than the test

4 procedure indicates with the specified coil

5 wouldn't then the FTC rating be misleading?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would -- so

7 I'm going to turn your words around. What I'm

8 hearing Gary argue is that our test procedure

9 is not representative.

10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Well, I wasn't

11 really thinking about that so much as the FTC

12 label, not --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's based on a

14 test procedure, so --

15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes. Oh, okay. 

16 So, putting it all together, it puts out the

17 way we stated it. That would be a

18 disappointing consequence too because, well,

19 I thought the FTC was all about truth in

20 labeling.

21 MR. AMRANE: Gary, this is Karim

22 from the HRI. The issue exists today. So
Page 314

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 you're not disappointed today, but you're

2 going to be disappointed in the future.

3 MEMBER FERNSTROM: I was hoping to

4 make some gains in the diminishment of my

5 disappointment.

6 MEMBER MYERS: So let me -- this

7 is Karen with Rheem. Let me just ask this

8 again. So I have a 13-SEER condensing unit

9 that I test with a coil in accordance with DOE

10 test procedures and it gets a 13.0. In

11 certain combinations I also rate that same

12 condensing unit and coil with an ECM equipped

13 furnace and it gives me a 14.0. Can I sell

14 that condensing unit in the south?

15 MR. RAWALD: I think we need to

16 defer into that at the moment. So we'll

17 discuss that for --

18 MEMBER MYERS: That's what I need.

19 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I know you do,

20 Karen. I know. So --

21 MR. EISNER: Do you guys have an

22 idea on timing that you can -- I mean, this is
Page 315

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 maybe 40 minutes to --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's skip the

3 second one, and maybe we'll get back to that

4 one for a second. So the other question I got

5 was how are single-stage split system air

6 conditioners tested and rated? And so this

7 is, there's a specific provision in our regs. 

8 And I can weigh it down, it's got a lot of

9 extra things, for anyone that's interested.

10 But any split system air

11 conditioner having a single speed compressor,

12 the condenser evaporator coil combination

13 selected for tests shall include the and-or

14 coil only unit that is likely to have the

15 largest volume of retail sales.

16 So this means that these types of

17 units have to be tested with a coil only test

18 procedure. This means that to comply with the

19 standard the resulting rating from that coil

20 only test must meet the standard, regardless

21 of any range represented on the performance as

22 represented by the FTC label.
Page 316

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER SACHS: Wow.

2 MEMBER MYERS: So did that not

3 answer my question?

4 MEMBER SACHS: Yes. Oh, it did.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That did answer

6 your question.

7 MEMBER MYERS: Well, why did you

8 say --

9 MR. RAWALD: I just needed you to

10 wait.

11 MEMBER MYERS: You're killing me.

12 MEMBER LATTANZI: Could you read

13 that again?

14 MEMBER MYERS: So I'm going to ask

15 my question again, now that you've completed

16 your statement.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we will go

18 through the process of putting this out

19 officially. But I will read it again, because

20 I know that I'm supposed to. Ready?

21 MEMBER SACHS: You could just hit

22 record and put it on mute.
Page 317

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. MEYERS: I have been writing. 

2 The court reporter might want it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So any split

4 system air conditioner having a single speed

5 compressor, the condenser evaporator coil

6 combination selected for tests shall include

7 the and-or coil only unit that is likely to

8 have the largest volume of retail sales with

9 that particular model of outdoor unit.

10 Thus, they would all need to be

11 tested with a coil only test procedure, if

12 they are this type of air conditioner. This

13 means to comply with the standard the

14 resulting reading from the coil only test must

15 meet the standard, regardless of the range

16 represented at the performance on the FTC

17 label.

18 (Simultaneous Speaking.)

19 MEMBER MYERS: You still have to

20 answer my question. So I'm going to ask my

21 question again.

22 MEMBER MYERS: I know.
Page 318

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay.

2 (Simultaneous Speaking.)

3 MEMBER MYERS: Is the answer to my

4 question, then, no?

5 MR. RAWALD: So, Karen, if the

6 question is the certified rating that you

7 achieve in this type run, these requirements

8 are laid out, is 13, then it cannot be sold in

9 a region where 14 is supposed to be what the

10 requirement is.

11 MEMBER MYERS: Thank you.

12 MR. EISNER: Right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

14 MR. EISNER: And we're going to

15 publish that, I heard you say?

16 MR. RAWALD: Right.

17 MR. EISNER: Right, great.

18 MEMBER ROCKY: So just to -- I'm

19 sorry, just to clarify, it's all the regs

20 today?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It isn't in the

22 regs. This is all based on our current
Page 319

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 record.

2 MEMBER ROCKY: So the current regs

3 and the new process a 13-SEER air conditioner

4 has a high sales volume tested combination

5 must be 13-SEER for the north, must be 14-SEER

6 for the south in that particular combination.

7 But it does not prohibit having a different

8 kind of sales volume tested combination for

9 that condenser, based on region?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't define

11 them. It doesn't define them separately. 

12 There's a singular, for outdoor units, 

13 there's a singular high sales line tested

14 combination.

15 MR. RAWALD: Well, our regs don't

16 currently describe the ability to pick and

17 choose this high volume sales issue.

18 (Off record comments.)

19 MR. RAWALD: So, leading again, I

20 don't want to kick it up again, but if we

21 could have one at a time, so we get back to

22 what the conversation actually is.
Page 320

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER MYERS: Sorry.

2 MR. RAWALD: That's okay.

3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So I kind of, I

4 asked, actually, to answer and I'll just ask

5 the group because I don't do this stuff, but

6 is it -- and this is Charlie at ACCA -- is it

7 the group's consensus that the FTC label is

8 bad?

9 MEMBER MYERS: So --

10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I mean, does that

11 sort of give us a reason to go to FTC and say

12 --

13 MEMBER MYERS: It's misleading.

14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- your label's

15 bad?

16 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave

17 from Allied. I don't know that it's what we

18 would call bad. It's going to be very

19 confusing.

20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Is it misleading?

21 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: It's 

22 misleading.
Page 321

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 (Simultaneous speaking.)

2 MR. HURST: I would say on the FTC

3 label -- well, it doesn't represent what the

4 minimum is --

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes.

6 MR. HURST: -- or just application

7 in homes. It represents a range of

8 possibilities.

9 MEMBER MYERS: I would even change

10 that and say the FTC label today interprets

11 the DOE regulations correctly for the north. 

12 It does not reflect the DOE regulations for

13 the south.

14 MEMBER SACHS: For the south, yes. 

15 I agree with it.

16 MR. EISNER: If there was an

17 accurate statement from the DOE people I would

18 ask is there any reason why FTC would not

19 change the label. If it's supposed to be

20 based on your rule. And you're telling them

21 it's wrong why wouldn't they change it?

22 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug now. 
Page 322

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I'm not speaking about FTC. So understand the

2 FTC is kind of in the position of trying to

3 make sure the label adequately represents what

4 the product does. The range, in their

5 opinion, shows what the product can do with

6 the worst coil and the best coil. Whereas

7 showing just one value, which is what you get

8 using the DOE test procedure doesn't

9 adequately show that range.

10 And so FTC, who's goal was

11 different than DOE in this program, is maybe

12 showing an adequate representation of all of

13 the representations that are out there. So

14 they're saying oh, you can't be, allege that

15 we're being misleading. So we're covering all

16 of our bases, the worst case scenario and the

17 best case scenario, by having this range.

18 Whereas having one dot on the

19 line, which is what you get with DOE test

20 procedure, wouldn't necessarily show all. And

21 so we want to make sure that consumer's not

22 mislead, they know that if they get a
Page 323

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 different coil than what you tested under the

2 DOE test procedure you're getting the worst

3 value. So that may mean a system where the

4 goals are assumes -- hypothetically or

5 pedantically about why it's been out there in

6 our conversation.

7 MR. AMRANE: But, Doug, today the

8 label has to be one.

9 MR. RAWALD: Oh, I understand

10 that, Karim. I -- no, I know that, so.

11 MEMBER CLARK: This is Gary Clark

12 from Goodman. I guess -- I understand exactly

13 what you're saying but from a practical

14 standpoint and as we've discussed earlier,

15 what typically happens is the homeowner gets

16 the FTC label after they've purchased the

17 product. And so the concern I would have

18 about trying to communicate things is that it

19 will cause confusion, because someone will buy

20 a 13-SEER unit and they will sit and question

21 the dealer as to why it doesn't get 14.

22 Well, what could you have done to
Page 324

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 make it 14-SEER? And it will, in many cases,

2 make the dealer look like they did something

3 incorrectly that kept the performance at the

4 bottom and of the scale, while that's not

5 really what happened.

6 MR. RAWALD: And that's some good

7 information that should be carried out through

8 your statements.

9 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes, in and ideal

10 world, to me, FTC would just come out with

11 another label for split systems sold in the

12 south that would have 14 to 15.2 or whatever

13 that range is. So it's not that the label I

14 wrong. It's only correct for the north

15 because that minimum needs to be either 13, or

16 14 based upon how we rate products.

17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So what I

18 would tell people, and I tell them first off

19 and that we can't really have any typed out at

20 the moment, is that I will talk to Hampton

21 Newsome when he returns.

22 I will explain to him the issue
Page 325

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that we see here. We will see if he would be

2 willing to come here and talk to us. I'll

3 talk with Dan and see where our thoughts would

4 be as far as the Department engaging with that

5 CMS.

6 But we hear the concerns, and I do

7 hear them. And I think that's where we're at

8 is that it seems that the group is generally

9 thinking of in terms of understanding how DOE

10 views the spit out, the numbers spit out from

11 our test procedure, that the label itself

12 might cause confusion to the consumer, which

13 is something we want to avoid.

14 MR. COHEN: And this is Dan. Just

15 want to other points I want to make about what

16 you're saying. I think FTC, the basic issue

17 is two things. One, they've already completed

18 the rule making, so if they do something now

19 on their label with lines, they can't just

20 sort of tomorrow spit out a different label

21 and say go use this.

22 So there's a certain amount of
Page 326

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 resource and need to kind of fold into that

2 process. The other thing is I think they also

3 look at it as the label that they came up in

4 the first round of rule making was one that

5 they see as was sort of suggested to them by

6 the industry. I think there's a certain

7 amount of resentment, you know, we kind of did

8 what you asked, and now you're asking for

9 more.

10 MEMBER PORTER: Doug, it's Steve

11 Porter, HARDI. So I guess, and you've got to

12 help me here because I don't know the process

13 and I don't quite know how the relationship

14 works between DOE and FTC and who trumps who

15 out in the marketplace.

16 And so I struggle here in that if

17 FTC's position is what I would imagine it to

18 be, which is, I'm not sure, is to go are you

19 telling me you tested it this way, but it

20 still can make 14-SEER with an air handler,

21 and you're going to rob the consumer of that

22 choice, and I'm not going to let you do that
Page 327

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 because that's a cheaper option.

2 I don't know. I just want to know

3 this for future planning or how we deal with

4 this agency going forward, because we work

5 together for future regulations, so we don't

6 end up in the same spot. So I'm confused that

7 even if we do it the way that DOE shows it to

8 be done, that there's not going to be a

9 consumer advocacy go, be us. You can't do

10 that. Because there was a cheaper solution

11 and you didn't allow it to happen, and we all

12 ended up back in court.

13 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, Matt

14 Lattanzi. Steve, that's the way it is today 

15 though for 13-SEER. I mean, it really is

16 basically maintaining the status quo in a

17 regional world.

18 MEMBER PORTER: Right.

19 MEMBER LATTANZI: So if you

20 haven't had that issue with 13-SEER then I

21 suspect we would be okay with at regional

22 standard as well.
Page 328

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 (Simultaneous speaking.)

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not quite

3 following what you're asking, either.

4 MR. COHEN: Well, again, now ---

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: That's two of us.

6 MEMBER HUNGERFORD: I don't think

7 that FTC is looking at it as a way of you're

8 taking away cheaper options.

9 MEMBER PORTER: But how do you

10 know? That's why I'm kind of asking.

11 MR. COHEN: They're a different

12 agency, and they -- but I think they're

13 looking at it as it is legally -- there is a

14 physical possibility of making something that

15 would meet the standard and we're taking an

16 option off.

17 MEMBER PORTER: Yes, they're

18 taking the cheaper out of it. They're saying

19 that it could be done.

20 MR. COHEN: Right.

21 MEMBER PORTER: So they don't

22 care, I guess. I guess I wonder, they all
Page 329

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 care now, right?

2 MEMBER COHEN: No, they view it as

3 they're actually being, they are being --

4 again, I'm speaking for a different agency so

5 I'm not, but I think they're viewing it as

6 they are being more complete in the

7 information they're providing because it is

8 physically possible to be done.

9 MEMBER PORTER: Okay.

10 MR. RAWALD: But the long and

11 short of it would be the label is not

12 indicative of what DOE views as compliance,

13 right, because we view the fact that it makes

14 compliance is the spit-out data you get from

15 following our test procedures.

16 And that number that comes out

17 tells you what the SEER value is and what that

18 should be if you're just doing one point.

19 MEMBER PORTER: So that's what

20 they'll defer to at FTC?

21 MR. RAWALD: Well, they're not

22 the ones that are enforcing the standard. We
Page 330

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 are.

2 MEMBER PORTER: Okay. Right,

3 that's the point though.

4 MR. RAWALD: The standard we're

5 enforcing is going to be based upon the data

6 that you get from testing the condenser in the

7 fourth day weakness cheater test.

8 MEMBER PORTER: Okay. That

9 answered my question. Thank you.

10 MR. RAWALD: All right. So I

11 guess, I know that's what Gary said earlier,

12 which I only wrapped on the axle on this, the

13 label one. Arguably, it's of lesser

14 importance for this possible product. And so

15 it's important but we cannot let that wag the

16 dog.

17 And so if we can develop and

18 enforce something that works, understand the

19 limitation that legal has put on that from a

20 consumer point of view, let's do that. Let's

21 just embrace the reality of what we have here

22 which is the label is a label. And let's do
Page 331

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 what we can to keep them informed of what

2 they're doing.

3 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 

4 Just, I mean, Amy read the statute that said

5 there are other materials that we can develop

6 to guide consumers. That may be another area.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MEMBER MYERS: I mean, if that

9 means prohibiting -- well, let me ask a

10 question, right? No? So for a manufacturer

11 we put those writings on the FTC label, what

12 is the minimum that we have to put on the

13 label?

14 Now the range is the range. The

15 range is defined by the --

16 MEMBER ROCKY: The regs.

17 MEMBER MYERS: The range is

18 defined by the regs. Okay, now I think I

19 answered. Never mind.

20 MEMBER ROCKY: No, I'm sorry. So

21 there is the label, right?

22 MR. COHEN: Yes.
Page 332

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 (Simultaneous speaking)

2 MEMBER ROCKY: So that

3 representation of the label has a range. And

4 that's what we're going to put on the product

5 as per FTC requirements, even though that

6 doesn't show the DOE minimum that unit

7 achieves based on rating.

8 It's referenced in the table what

9 the minimum needs to be. But that label --

10 MEMBER MYERS: So, Bryan, my

11 question is that range, that 13 to 14.2, who

12 establishes that? Like if I had a 16-SEER

13 unit what happens to the 13 to 14.2?

14 MEMBER ROCKY: So based on what

15 Ashley and Doug just said, that unit has, for

16 a northern unit, has a highest sales volume

17 testing combination coil only with 13. That's

18 the minimum number.

19 MEMBER MYERS: Let's say I have a

20 coil --

21 MEMBER ROCKY: If it's 14 as the

22 minimum to sell it in the South, that's what
Page 333

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the range has to show.

2 MEMBER MYERS: See, we don't need

3 that coil, right? So we don't need that coil. 

4 The range in the South.

5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: If you look at the

6 label inside that box you've got least

7 efficient/most efficient on the bar that's --

8 (Simultaneous speaking)

9 MEMBER ROCKY: But I can't do

10 anything about the 14-SEER.

11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Right.

12 MEMBER CLARK: Let's say the

13 highest sales volume tested combination is

14 14-SEER. But you may have coil-only

15 combinations that are below 14-SEER. Still

16 above 13 but below 14.

17 MEMBER MYERS: I can't say 13. 

18 Maybe it's 13-A.

19 MEMBER ROCKY: That's right. You

20 said 14. It doesn't have to be 14. If you

21 have a 14-SEER unit it can fall below 14 and

22 still be compliant for sales in the North.
Page 334

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MR. EISNER: Right, because of the

2 match.

3 MEMBER MYERS: Are you sure?

4 MR. EISNER: This one would range

5 about 13 to 13.8, right?

6 MEMBER ROCKY: You only get one

7 highest sales volume tested combination per

8 for an outdoor unit.

9 MEMBER MEYERS: And if that's --

10 okay.

11 MEMBER ROCKY: So that's going to

12 define what that number is, I think, on the

13 lower left-hand side. The lower range.

14 MEMBER MEYERS: I think I agree

15 with you. You can't put in that range

16 anything that is lower than your highest sales

17 volume tested combination.

18 MEMBER ROCKY: Right. That's what

19 I believe I heard --

20 MEMBER MEYERS: You don't?

21 MR. HURST: The highest sales

22 volume tested combination would be deep within
Page 335

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 the range. But that's not to be the base.

2 MEMBER ROCKY: Right. It's true

3 today with a 16-SEER unit you'll have -- now

4 a two-stage unit, there are a lot of situation

5 where they'll have the highest sales volume

6 tested combination and you'll have ratings

7 less than that. And lower than that. But

8 that's two-stage. We're talking single stage

9 at this point.

10 MEMBER CLARK: You know, in this

11 same situation you're going to get --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, all those

13 right.

14 MEMBER ROCKY: As long as you're

15 above 13, right? So I'm sorry, Bryan and Rob,

16 just to clarify, Karen and I thought we heard

17 one thing. Ashley, you and Gary were shaking

18 your heads saying no, this is something else. 

19 Can you just restate what --

20 MEMBER MYERS: For a single-speed

21 -- let me give this a push. For a

22 single-speed air conditioner that's rating is
Page 336

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 established that's the highest sales volume

2 tested combination does that have to be the

3 minimum that is shown on that range?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I'd

5 have to look at FTC regs to be able to answer

6 that right off for you.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So I guess

9 what I'm saying is we don't control or dictate

10 what is on that label. So the FTC rating rule

11 says here's the range the manufacturer is

12 putting on the label.

13 And where that range comes from,

14 it comes from, presumably, from modeling with

15 various coils and testing with that condenser. 

16 But from dealing these enforcement purposes,

17 from enforcing compliance with our standard,

18 the number we care about is what you get from

19 matching with the highest sales volume portal.

20 And if that number is the bottom,

21 the middle or the top of that range that's not

22 what we're concerned about because that's not
Page 337

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 our reg. And Laura's shaking her head at me

2 and saying, no, I'm wrong. So I --

3 MEMBER MYERS: Yes, so I agree

4 with Laura. So for -- we just said that for

5 the South a 14-SEER coil only rating is the

6 minimum.

7 MR. RAWALD: Right. Well, we

8 always, the standard is 14-SEER.

9 MEMBER MYERS: But your rating has

10 to be based upon single-speed 14-SEER unit

11 based upon your highest sales volume tested

12 combination.

13 MR. RAWALD: That's right.

14 MEMBER MYERS: So that means it's

15 got to be 14 for the South.

16 MR. RAWALD: That's correct.

17 MEMBER MYERS: So your range can't

18 be below that. Single-speed air conditioner,

19 coil only.

20 MEMBER CLARK: You're selling an

21 amount of labels for a --

22 MEMBER MYERS: So you come up with
Page 338

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that range based upon your R.

2 MEMBER CLARK: Right.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we need to

4 address the -- there's two issues. I think we

5 addressed one of them. And then your

6 question, while I'm not able to address it for

7 FTC's range, I think your ask of us is what

8 are valid ratings for other combinations of

9 that system.

10 Because your range is based on

11 valid ratings.

12 MEMBER MYERS: Right, and we

13 pulled that up.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You need evidence. 

15 If you can't come up with a valid rating

16 pursuant to the DOE test procedure we're

17 saying you can't have it in the range.

18 So really your question is what is

19 a valid rating. And that's something that I

20 did not address. And that is something we

21 need to take back.

22 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave
Page 339

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 with Allied. Specifically to Karen's

2 question, I mean, we can have a 14-SEER system

3 with what we feel is the highest tested sales

4 volume match for that 14-SEER. That outdoor

5 unit we can also match with a smaller indoor.

6 Okay, we don't think that a usage

7 of that is our highest tested sales volume. 

8 I think this is what Karen is trying to --

9 it's still, the way that I understand, the way

10 the FTC guide it set up today, whatever you

11 can rate that unit with it goes to the lowest

12 and the highest, whatever it is.

13 MEMBER CLARK: As long as it's

14 above 13.

15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: As long as

16 it's above 13.

17 MEMBER CLARK: Okay. I

18 understand. I get it.

19 MEMBER MEYERS: That's why I think

20 I'm back to my problem.

21 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Now I think it

22 solves --
Page 340

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I do not follow

2 your problem completely. Am I --

3 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: No, I agree

4 with that. It doesn't completely solve the

5 problem. It solves it from a what meets

6 the DOE reg standpoint.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think so.

8 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: No?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: All I did was

10 address how the test --

11 MEMBER MEYERS: We're back to our

12 same problem.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're back to --

14 that did not address the whole problem, that

15 is accurate. And I can't address the whole

16 problem right now, be patient. I can't do it. 

17 There are some obstinate issues.

18 (Simultaneous speaking)

19 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, I mean, it

20 didn't address the whole problem. I mean, if

21 it's not all of it, it's pert near all of it. 

22 Well, I mean, I walked away with a clear
Page 341

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 understanding and now, I'm sorry, because I

2 really thought we did address the full

3 problem.

4 MEMBER MYERS: No, not anymore.

5 MEMBER LATTANZI: No, but I get

6 what, exactly what they say and I understand

7 where you're coming -- I mean, the number

8 might be lower or it might be, you know, 13

9 because you could have a 3-ton outdoor and

10 size it to a 2-ton or a 2.5-ton indoor. And

11 it'd be valid in the North.

12 MEMBER CLARK: Right. But up

13 North where you don't need --

14 MEMBER LATTANZI: I get it. It's

15 lower cooler loads, right, yes.

16 MEMBER CLARK: For some crazy

17 reason --

18 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, it seems

19 to me like there's a 100 percent but where's

20 the --

21 MEMBER CLARK I mean, the label, I

22 think, is ambiguous and misleading. I think
Page 342

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 it should be fixed.

2 MEMBER LATTANZI: But I think

3 there are a lot them are answers --

4 MEMBER MEYERS: No.

5 MEMBER CLARK: Well, you're

6 shaking your head.

7 MEMBER MEYERS: No, because we

8 have an R&D database and that unit's going

9 down the production line. And it's model XYZ. 

10 And it's got a range of ratings that you have

11 established in your database.

12 Now, because we have two, we have

13 a national standard and a regional standard,

14 although your highest sales volume for your

15 14-SEER 3-ton may be 14, you could also put

16 that same condenser with a 2.5-ton coil and

17 you could get a 13.8.

18 So your range, because you're

19 going -- you're looking at your database, your

20 production line is pulling that -- is 13.8 to

21 maybe 14.9.

22 MEMBER LATTANZI: Right.
Page 343

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER MEYERS: So now you've got,

2 now that unit where -- can you -- So now you

3 have that same issue. You've just adjusted

4 this range.

5 MEMBER CLARK: You couldn't sell

6 it in the South.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MEMBER WHITE: Can't you all --

9 Can't I just sell the combinations that are 14

10 or greater?

11 MEMBER MEYERS: I don't --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's your --

13 that's the question that you've given me. What

14 combinations --

15 MEMBER MYERS: I don't know what's

16 being installed.

17 MEMBER WHITE: But, if in the

18 South, it has to be 14, anything that's under

19 14 I can't use those combinations in the

20 South. And then 14 or greater --

21 MEMBER MEYERS: But I don't know

22 what that is.
Page 344

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if your

2 highest -- do you ever have a case where your

3 highest sales test combination is a 13.8 but

4 you have other combinations that are larger. 

5 It's just that your range goes up to a 14.5?

6 MEMBER CLARK: Yes.

7 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes.

8 MEMBER WHITE: Yes.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you do

10 then?

11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Round up.

12 (Simultaneous speaking)

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you do

14 in that case?

15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Ashley, it's

16 possible, but we don't design that way

17 typically, okay. We design at these market

18 thresholds. Okay? The minimum efficiency

19 level is what it is. But then if there's

20 another line 14 we're not typically going to

21 design something that's going to be at this

22 number that doesn't fit at one of these kind
Page 345

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of lines in the sand if you will.

2 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, Dave, in

3 my opinion, what's kind of messed that up is

4 Energy Star.

5 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes, I agree.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Plus you're

7 running it through a second organization.

8 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, Dave

9 opened up with 14.5.

10 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes, the 14.5,

11 I agree with you.

12 MEMBER LATTANZI: That situation

13 you just pointed out exactly. It's a 13.8 to

14 14.6 or something.

15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: But again, that

16 is typically above the line that we're talking

17 about.

18 MEMBER ROCKY: So the problem is,

19 to me, just to summarize this, I'm going to

20 finish that up. I promise. This label meets

21 the FTC requirements. We don't want to put

22 the range on there based on DOE test
Page 346

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 procedures. But now longer is a valid

2 communication to the homeowner of what

3 contractors can sell by region for the South

4 or the Southwest because it's got a number

5 less than 14.

6 It's legitimate if it has the

7 highest sales volume tested combination that

8 means 14 so we can sell it. You can't prove 

9 it with this document, with this label, to a

10 contractor to a homeowner that that's a

11 legitimate sale. That's something people

12 should know.

13 MEMBER BALLO: Well, I think that

14 the label, though, says, directs whoever's

15 looking at it to go to the website and punch

16 in the numbers --

17 MEMBER ROCKY: But what they're

18 used to today is the contractor looks at that

19 and says if that was less than 12, less than

20 13 I can't sell that today. Next January, if

21 it's less than 14, I can't sell that in the

22 South or the Southwest.
Page 347

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: And this is

2 Dave with Allied. The problem's going to be

3 where it's going to get more confusing. I can

4 also, from a theoretical standpoint, I can

5 take a 13-SEER product with a combination of

6 indoor match and it's going to go over 14. 

7 And why can't I buy that? And that's in

8 conflict with what --

9 MEMBER ROCKY: FTC says why not,

10 DOE says that's not valid.

11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Correct.

12 MEMBER MYERS: So it's really the

13 least efficient. The least -- so we need --

14 MEMBER ROCKY: It's the least

15 efficient, that's what you're saying?

16 MEMBER NOLL: The least efficient

17 combination needs to be the regional minimum.

18 MEMBER MYERS: No.

19 MEMBER NOLL: Well why?

20 (Simultaneous speaking)

21 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: I don't think

22 we're in disagreement with you necessarily. 
Page 348

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 It's just not what we have.

2 MEMBER NOLL: No, but I saying

3 that would solve a lot of, and by and large

4 mitigate a lot of harm, potentially, if the

5 least efficient combination met the minimum

6 standard for that region.

7 MEMBER CLARK: And I think it

8 would be, in today's environment, to your

9 point, agreeing with what you just said, it's

10 pretty straightforward. It's highest sales

11 volume tested combination that's this. You go

12 to the FTC tag, it says that same thing. It's

13 like this is pretty clear.

14 Whereas what we're looking at in

15 the future is the highest sales volume tested

16 combination is going to say this, 14-SEER,

17 let's say in this example. But you could go

18 to the FTC tag and they could have a range

19 that spans anything from below 14 to something

20 way above 14. And so you don't get that

21 clarity that we have today.

22 MEMBER NOLL: It actually gives
Page 349

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 customers information that says that there is

2 a less efficient combination for that unit.

3 MEMBER CLARK: Yes.

4 MEMBER NOLL: So you don't want to

5 take that information away unless you were to

6 change --

7 MEMBER PORTER: That's the case on

8 every unit though, that we can make it less

9 efficient.

10 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Well contractors

11 do that every day.

12 MEMBER PORTER: I know.

13 (Simultaneous speaking)

14 MEMBER CLARK: I know.

15 MR. EISNER: I'm talking about

16 from an enforcement kind of standpoint. Today 

17 it's pretty wind up. You can go to Drummary's

18 and it has field volume test combinations and

19 you go to the FTC tag, it says the same exact

20 thing. Then you say okay.

21 MEMBER PORTER: I know.

22 MR. EISNER: It could clear up the
Page 350

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 ambiguity.

2 MEMBER MEYERS: Does your highest

3 sales volume tested combination need to be

4 your least efficient combination?

5 MEMBER CLARK: No.

6 MEMBER MEYERS: Why?

7 MEMBER CLARK: It has to be the

8 one you think is your, the coil and outdoor

9 unit and indoor unit that you think is going

10 to provide the highest number of sales.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: The way I

12 understand it today is they may not be and

13 likely are not to be one and the same. In

14 other words, highest sales is not necessarily

15 your least efficient.

16 MEMBER CLARK: Yes, for instance,

17 what you might find is, I'll use a 3-ton

18 example. A lot of times we have standard coil

19 with, let's say. So with a B and a C kind of

20 a 17 and 21 inch cabinet you're going to get

21 the 14-SEER.

22 You know there's some people out
Page 351

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that up North that have no, they have their

2 A-width. And so you rate it with that A-width

3 coil.

4 And so instead of getting 14 like

5 you did with the B -- you know, the 14-inch

6 coil doesn't get the same as a 17 or the 21. 

7 The 17 and 21, let's say get 14.

8 But the really narrow one, I

9 believe that's 13.7, but up North that's cool. 

10 They want to put it on top of B cabinet first

11 because they have high heat and low cooling

12 applications.

13 MEMBER MEYERS: Now here's where

14 you're losing me. 14-SEER is the minimum in

15 the South.

16 MEMBER CLARK: Right.

17 MEMBER MEYERS: So why should you

18 be able to put a range on a unit that you

19 certified as your highest sales volume tested

20 combination for the South, why should that

21 range be able to go below 14?

22 It's like today we can't put
Page 352

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 anything lower than 13 because that is the

2 minimum allowed.

3 MEMBER CLARK: Because we have

4 this thing called the North, that that unit

5 should be able to be sold.

6 MEMBER EISNER: And it may be a

7 rating less than --

8 MEMBER MEYERS: That's fine, but

9 --

10 MEMBER PORTER: Karen, can I play

11 Devil's Advocate on that? So as a

12 manufacturer I come up with the unit. And I

13 just want to go one unit and I can make the

14 minimum get to 14 and it's also legal. So I

15 want that range in that 13.

16 MEMBER WHITE: Can you speak up?

17 MEMBER MEYERS: I know that maybe

18 having a fall after the range that you show --

19 MEMBER PORTER: Right.

20 MEMBER MEYERS: And it's based

21 upon how it might be installed.

22 MEMBER PORTER: Right.
Page 353

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER MEYERS: I'm talking about

2 labeling a compliant unit. I mean, we can't

3 drive up, you know. A lot of times units are

4 installed where the coil's not changed.

5 Lots of times things got changed

6 on the unit and it's not installed for HRI

7 test conditions so that rating is just a

8 oranges to oranges comparison.

9 MEMBER CLARK: But to that point,

10 Karen, I mean, and what Dave's saying. This

11 is Gary from Rheem again -- or, Gary.

12 (Simultaneous speaking)

13 MEMBER CLARK: But going back to

14 this single point, I would still buy and test

15 the combination that would kind of cure that. 

16 It would save --

17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Where would

18 you install that?

19 MEMBER MEYERS: That's what I

20 want.

21 MEMBER BALLO: Yes, but that's not

22 really giving consumers accurate information
Page 354

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 because they're not going to necessarily get

2 that form, and that's suggesting that they

3 are.

4 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: The current --

5 and this is Dave from Allied -- the current

6 EnergyGuide label shows a band of the width of

7 the industry. Okay, and with the addition of

8 this new label, and this is just talking out

9 loud here for a few moments.

10 But with the addition of this

11 range that's specific for that unit, okay,

12 you're saying here's the range for the

13 industry. Here's the range for this unit. 

14 Well that range for that specific unit is

15 already in that bottom bar.

16 And you could send them to a HRI

17 directory or whatever and get the specific

18 rating for that unit and still the information

19 on the label is wrong.

20 The single point, you know, and

21 again I'm just proposing this for discussion,

22 just I think takes away some of the confusion,
Page 355

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 some areas where it may be misleading and

2 probably helps in an enforcement situation.

3 MEMBER BALLO: So then I guess my

4 concern is that if you take away that range

5 you're also taking away the incentive that's

6 going to spur that consumer or homeowner or

7 whatever to actually go to the website because

8 it's suggesting that, well, you know, my

9 contractor didn't say I had some sort of

10 strange weird coil so I'm just going to assume

11 that I got the one on here that's shown on the

12 range.

13 MR. HURST: So Tim, what do you,

14 this, what do you think your consumer's going

15 to do in either scenario? You said it

16 discourages them from going to the website. 

17 What do you think consumers actually do? What

18 would their behavior be in either scenario?

19 MEMBER BALLO: Well, I agree, most

20 of the time the consumers are not going to do

21 anything. But to the extent --

22 MR. HURST: But if they did?
Page 356

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER BALLO: --- if they go to

2 the website they're going to punch in the

3 bottom numbers and get what should be their

4 SEER rating for their installed combination.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I ask a

6 question? This is not speaking on behalf of

7 the Department or the Department's policies. 

8 I'm just trying to understand Karen's kind of

9 ask.

10 Is you ask that if you require

11 least efficient meet the standard then you

12 invalidate all ratings below that standard. 

13 In other words, it wouldn't be a valid

14 certified combination below the 14-SEER model. 

15 That's how I translate your ask. Is that what

16 you're asking for?

17 Because, in other words, then you

18 would have no range and then you would have no

19 certified rating and then you could not ---

20 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Ashley, this

21 is Dave with Allied. But in the South, I

22 agree, but when you're operating in the North
Page 357

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I'm

3 trying to understand exactly what the ask is.

4 MEMBER MEYERS: I want another

5 energy guideline for my ask is that we have --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, what kind of

7 energy guideline would --

8 MEMBER MEYERS: -- the systems in

9 the North where it says the least efficient is

10 14.0.

11 MEMBER ROCKY: You mean 13. South

12 is 14.

13 MEMBER MEYERS: Oh, for the South. 

14 I want this to remain as it is for the South. 

15 I want another one for split systems for --

16 MEMBER ROCKY: The North. You

17 want two.

18 MEMBER MEYERS: I want two. This

19 one is fine for the North. I want another one

20 for the South where this least efficient

21 number says 14.0.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you don't think
Page 358

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 that's a very valid rating.

2 MEMBER MEYERS: For enforcement

3 purposes, to make sure that we are only, that

4 the, you know, the majority of all your units

5 being shipped in the South, you have a 14-SEER

6 minimum value. This 13 becomes a 14.

7 That's going to give you the best

8 assurance, it's going to be an easy look for

9 the good contractor. I mean, these are on the

10 outside of the units. They're on the boxes.

11 Now we have to put them on the

12 boxes. So it's an easy way for the good

13 contractor to say that's not a valid system.

14 MEMBER WHITE: And the homeowners

15 see that.

16 MEMBER MEYERS: And the homeowners

17 see it.

18 MEMBER WHITE: I mean, I think the

19 drive here is to find a magic bullet that

20 makes essentially a North applied to South.

21 MEMBER EISNER: Well, then there's

22 no confusion. Well, wait a minute. Well,
Page 359

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 maybe a North to the South product that -- not

2 with South, with Northern -- I think doing

3 what Karen suggests doesn't preclude us from

4 doing what Gary mentioned about, still rating

5 it with an undersized coil.

6 You saw the rating in the

7 directory. I don't know why you couldn't. 

8 It's legal. It would still be 13.2 or

9 whatever. But that label here for the South

10 would say 14, as long as what he's suggesting

11 didn't preclude that and I don't think it

12 would, that would be fine.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Essentially you're

14 asking, I'm interpreting, but essentially it

15 seems to me what you're asking for with

16 several people were also the associations for

17 the North and also in terms of the models

18 would be different.

19 And the reason I say that is

20 because you're differentiating ranges, right? 

21 Forget an outdoor unit that has a

22 range of indoor units. It may have highest
Page 360

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 sales volume tested combination somewhere in

2 the middle. It can go below or above.

3 You're asking -- it may span the

4 14 level. You're saying we want to

5 differentiate those that -- for the North you

6 want them all. That's fine. But for the

7 South, you want to say no, right, that those

8 ones don't count, that this is my model line

9 for the South. And this is only the valid

10 model line and it starts at a minimum of 14. 

11 Is that the ask?

12 MEMBER MEYERS: That's the ask.

13 MEMBER SACHS: In the spirit of --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And that --

15 you, and just to say that, that may not align

16 with your highest sales volume tested

17 combination. It could be below, it could be

18 higher, it could be right in line with -- it

19 sometimes it may align because of the way you

20 design your products is what I heard. But it

21 may not.

22 So you want your least efficient
Page 361

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 representation for the South to be lined up

2 with the minimum standard. Is that the ask?

3 MEMBER MEYERS: I think that --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Am I right?

5 MEMBER SACHS: I think

6 representation is the key word there.

7 (Simultaneous speaking)

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's how you

9 sort it out with the client.

10 MEMBER MYERS: Okay, the standard

11 to deal with, I think the ask is --

12 MEMBER CLARK: It's all in the

13 spirit of easing, simplifying the enforcement,

14 like what Karen says.

15 MEMBER MEYERS: Right. The

16 enforcement, that tells us what we can and

17 cannot sell to our customers.

18 MEMBER CLARK: Yes that's right.

19 MEMBER MYERS: I can't ship this

20 unit to you. I can ship this unit to you. 

21 But I cannot ship this to you.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So if I'm
Page 362

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 understanding correctly, you're saying I have

2 one model of condensing units. I have two

3 versions of the label. One version of the

4 label goes to the North and one version of the

5 label goes to the South.

6 MEMBER MEYERS: No, I've got two

7 lines of condensing units.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, but it's the

9 same top brand.

10 MEMBER CLARK: Could be.

11 MEMBER MEYERS: Could be.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, for this

13 purpose it is.

14 MEMBER CLARK: Yes.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So do both of those

16 have certified ratings with coils that are

17 below 14 and I'm just changing what I'm

18 putting on the label?

19 MR. HURST: No. One has a

20 certified rating of 14. One has a certified

21 minimum of 13.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so you're
Page 363

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 actually -- potentially -- to the extent

2 previously you would certify that as a single

3 model you would then be willing to certify

4 them as separate models? One that's --

5 MR. HURST: Yes, I think so .

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: One that's only

7 available --

8 (Simultaneous Speaking)

9 MR. HURST: In practicality

10 actually --- 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can't. But to

12 the extent that they would allow you to do

13 that today, you were saying you'd be willing

14 to. Your ask is you'd be willing to say

15 they're definitely different?

16 MEMBER MEYERS: The only way it

17 can be the same model is if it hit 14, then

18 went to 13. Could be there.

19 (Simultaneous speaking)

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. I mean,

21 you will acknowledge everybody's allowing you

22 to do that today?
Page 364

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER MEYERS: Right. So.

2 (Simultaneous speaking)

3 MR. HURST: Well, and coming, of

4 course, from a standpoint of say a warehouse,

5 a distributor, even a contractor running it

6 you can spot non-compliant equipment fairly

7 quickly if there's no ambiguity on the label.

8 And so, Tim, if you want to walk

9 through every contractor with binoculars --

10 MEMBER BALLO: Like I said,

11 they're labeled red with their --

12 MEMBER PORTER: Well, this is the

13 border for picking purposes as well. See we

14 have a central distribution center that's

15 going to feed North and South.

16 MALE PARTICIPANT: We're doing the

17 same.

18 MEMBER PORTER: So, I mean,

19 labeling's key for us and easier to

20 communicate the people that are maybe picking

21 up product that aren't necessarily as well

22 trained as we are, I guess.
Page 365

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 I still haven't quite figured this

2 out, but I think we're in -- I mean, I think

3 it would, right, Dave, I mean, it's going to

4 be two bottles, possibly two bottles. Right? 

5 So I don't see a problem. I think that's --

6 Karen's stumbled on something quite easily.

7 MEMBER SACHS: More than a decade

8 ago, we were starting to look at furnace fans

9 and one of the things we discovered that there

10 families of models that looked very similar

11 but had very different whatever it was that we

12 were using as indexes of fan energy use.

13 And the explanation that

14 eventually evolved, and I'm asking if this was

15 really true or it's still true was that, in

16 fact, the manufacturers sensibly had two

17 similar models with different fans sizes. 

18 The one with the larger fan per

19 BTU of heating capacity was designed for a

20 Southern application where the evaporator coil

21 was typically larger and vice versa. So it

22 seems to me that without a regulatory context,
Page 366

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 if that's true we already have a dueling of

2 regional models to some extent informally in

3 the market today.

4 But for instance, it is entirely

5 separate from the condensing versus

6 non-condensing. So in that sense, if the

7 market has moved in that direction which

8 suggests that this dual model strategy that

9 I'm hearing about from Karen's suggestion

10 would seem like it's not unduly burdensome and

11 seemed like it would be something that could

12 be very helpful. 

13 There may be some gaps in my logic

14 but --

15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave

16 from Allied. And I probably made a refresher

17 so please chime in. But there are models that

18 are specifically designed at 13-SEER and 14 or

19 to 14.5 in the market today with watches here

20 in the future around we thought it was where

21 it was going to be.

22 So those are already truncated. 
Page 367

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 Now the range of efficiency that maybe we

2 thought we could put on the labels for those

3 products, this decision may have an impact on. 

4 But those products, are already --

5 MEMBER SACHS: So the dual model,

6 dual label is in the pipeline. Separation of

7 models, and there's Southern label for the

8 Southern model and a Northern label for the

9 Northern model doesn't sound like a huge

10 change in business practice.

11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: No, as long as

12 we aren't adding additional pipes.

13 MEMBER CLARK: Yes, I guess the

14 presumption would be is if a unit has a

15 Southern label and it would be compliant in

16 the North.

17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes, we need

18 to make sure that that's quota.

19 MEMBER CLARK: Yes, so still just

20 one lane on a given --

21 MEMBER SACHS: On a given

22 pipeline, yes.
Page 368

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: So you could

2 call that a national model and a Northern only

3 model. It's 14 or above it can be sold

4 anywhere in the country. It's 13 to 14 it can

5 only be sold in the North. 

6 (Simultaneous speaking)

7 MR. EISNER: So have we exhausted

8 this subject?

9 MEMBER SACHS: Yes, and the only

10 people who aren't here are the ones who

11 matter.

12 MR. EISNER: It's 4 o'clock. Do

13 we want to get on to another issue? 

14 MEMBER SACHS: No.

15 MR. EISNER: We're not as far as I

16 thought we would be today. 

17 MR. RAWALD: Maybe we could see if

18 we have anything that we need to work on.

19 (Simultaneous speaking)

20 MEMBER SACHS: We thought that

21 we'd go around and ask different stakeholders

22 what they wanted to get out of this. It may
Page 369

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 be pretty obvious now from the conversation. 

2 I'd certainly be willing to close out

3 the day with 30 seconds of what I think.

4 MR. RAWALD: Did everyone hear? 

5 Charlie's volunteered to give, he has a

6 30-second answer to the question yesterday, as

7 proposed by Jon Melchi about what the

8 advocates would want out of this and what it's

9 helpful for us to do.

10 MEMBER SACHS: Do we want to hear

11 from each group? What does the contractor

12 need, what does the homeowner need? Or do we

13 just want to hear from the advocates right

14 now?

15 (Simultaneous speaking)

16 MR. EISNER: All right, let's get

17 that sheet up so we can add that to the list

18 too.

19 MEMBER SACHS: I think the things

20 that, the thing that really drives the

21 advocates on the efficiency and environmental

22 side which doesn't overlap completely with
Page 370

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 consumer side is national energy savings. 

2 And I think we've demonstrated in

3 things like the small level or high velocity

4 that we're not terribly worried about 100

5 percent of their cases where, in that case it

6 was niche product. In this case, and you'll

7 turn your ears off, Doug, if we only get 98

8 percent compliance instead of 100 percent.

9 But we're not going to lose a lot

10 of sleep because to us something which is

11 acceptable and simple and fits into the

12 business models with the minimum disruption is

13 also very important. Things which are too

14 much of a burden will get away with other

15 efforts and other venues such as quality

16 installation.

17 So I think this is why our

18 organization in particular has been broadly

19 supportive of this kind of effort to strive

20 towards something which can build on what

21 we're doing is simple and can be enforced well

22 enough and simply enough that it maintains its
Page 371

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 credibility in the market.

2 Now I think Tim and Elizabeth

3 ought to have the opportunity to say, Harvey,

4 you're full of it in terms of my organization. 

5 But that would be where we come from in terms

6 of the objectives we've been trying to get to. 

7 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth. 

8 I would agree generously to what Harvey said. 

9 I do think the ability to enact the

10 enforcement that word just carries a lot of

11 weight, I think in a lot of people's mind. 

12 But the ability to at least know what level of

13 compliance we're meeting. 

14 And, if not, retroactively,

15 pro-actively be able to modify and evolve. 

16 And I think Harvey mentioned yesterday that

17 the significant amount of work that was done

18 on the waiver mechanism for furnaces. 

19 And I think while we're not

20 talking about waivers in this instance some of

21 the things that came to the table were like

22 abuse and fraud and how might you go about
Page 372

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 understanding that. 

2 And also, you know, the ability to

3 review and on what cycle and how often do you

4 assess a program and be able to modify it in

5 a timely manner as opposed to on a six or

6 ten-year basis kind of thing so that you're

7 identifying loopholes or gaps. I mean, we all

8 can't predict the future.

9 So that's kind of where

10 enforcement is meaningful to us in that we

11 able to at least understand what's happening

12 and then react appropriately.

13 MEMBER BALLO: So I guess the only

14 thing I'll add is I sort of agree with that

15 point that the real key for us is a certain

16 amount of transparency. Enough transparency

17 that will allow us to get to the 98 percent

18 that will let 98 percent compliance level that

19 will let Harvey sleep at night.

20 Without getting information --

21 we're not going to be able to get access to

22 information that you all don't feel
Page 373

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 comfortable giving out. I mean, this is a

2 20-some person process and you all will not

3 agree to that so that's something we have to

4 live with.

5 But that said, what level of

6 information about the status of stuff that's

7 going out into the market can we get out to

8 the public, out to consumers so that there is

9 at least the general sense that compliance is

10 mostly there for stuff that's getting

11 installed.

12 And the only other thing I'll add

13 is that as I've gotten labeling work more in

14 the last couple years that's another thing

15 that I really hope we can influence through

16 this process, is the label content and also

17 the, what we can do to encourage consumers,

18 homeowners to get more educated about this

19 equipment and the actual efficiency they're

20 getting.

21 Because, you know, as an

22 environmental advocate it's very easy for me
Page 374

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 to be upset about stuff not meeting DOE levels

2 and about power plant emissions that result

3 from that. But there's no greater advocate

4 for ensuring compliance than an irate

5 homeowner who didn't get the efficient unit

6 that he thought he was paying for, so.

7 MR. EISNER: Any other comments? 

8 Questions? So you've already to satisfy the

9 advocates? 

10 MR. RAWALD: I guess in changing

11 things up for next week, something like

12 something that made me really interested in

13 what's --

14 MR. EISNER: Next week?

15 MR. RAWALD: Well, not next week. 

16 Two weeks from now or our next meeting was the

17 role of the distributor vis a vis both their

18 working with their partners, their

19 contractors, and their working with the

20 manufacturer. 

21 So I don't know if, Steve, if you

22 and John can work maybe and give us some sort
Page 375

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 of information for that. That'd be really

2 helpful for me. I don't know if for other

3 folks, kind of understanding your role in the

4 process and kind of that, what the pressure

5 you feel from the installers today. I think

6 that'd be very helpful for me to understand

7 better.

8 Does that make sense? You're

9 looking at me like dead body.

10 MEMBER PORTER: No, just kind of

11 like restate it again for me. You just want

12 to know our role or on the labeling --

13 MR. RAWALD: And the pressure that

14 you folks feel in the process and what you can

15 bring to bear. And how you play into this in

16 making sure that there's compliance with the

17 standard, how do you see your role.

18 Because you folks are closer to

19 what happens in the manufacturing. And so how

20 do you work with the manufacturers and how do

21 you work with the installers. So where do you

22 fit into that process and how we could best
Page 376

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 work with you guys to make it all work

2 together.

3 MEMBER PORTER: Okay. So at our

4 next meeting. 

5 MR. RAWALD: No, no, no. I wanted

6 to change the subject so --

7 MEMBER PORTER: Yes, tell me about

8 our next meeting.

9 MEMBER FERNSTROM: We'll be a day

10 late on that one so I doubt I'll be here for

11 the 26th. I don't think I can get in on the

12 26th. I'll leave it for the 27th, 28th.

13 MR. RAWALD: Of course. If you can

14 tell John that. We're going to ask him to

15 talk. So you want John to do it or do you

16 want to?

17 MEMBER PORTER: I might. I'll

18 see.

19 (Simultaneous speaking)

20 MEMBER FERNSTRROM: I'll see what

21 I can do. But I want to end on that request.

22 MR. RAWALD: That'd be great. 
Page 377

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER CLARK: Okay, the crazy

2 idea for the -- This is Gary from Goodman --

3 crazy idea for the energy guide. Right now

4 it's got two kind of down triangles that show

5 the range. If they had a different symbol

6 that was for the highest sales volume tested

7 combination so you knew where that was.

8 MR. RAWALD: So you want to add

9 another number.

10 MEMBER CLARK: No, no,

11 MR. RAWALD: Another mark.

12 MEMBER CLARK: A mark. Okay,

13 that's right. So in this example it's 13 but

14 14.2 which, in all likelihood, the highest

15 sales volume tested combination is 13. But

16 the 13 little down triangle looks exactly like

17 the 14.2 so maybe at the -- maybe it was open,

18 an open triangle instead of a closed triangle.

19 And if you had a range, let's say

20 we were talking about these higher efficiency

21 products that were from, let's say the testing

22 combination was 14-SEER but the range of
Page 378

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 ratings was between 14.5 and 15. You would

2 show 13.5 to 15 with the closed triangles and

3 you'd have the open triangle at 14-SEER that

4 would be the HSB's VTC.

5 MR. RAWALD: So this would be in

6 lieu of Karen's ask for the label?

7 MEMBER CLARK: Yes. That's the

8 only time I'm talking about the FTC changing

9 their label. I realize that this is going to

10 blow their minds. I'm thinking that this is

11 a much, kind of a tweak to what they've done

12 versus let's roll back through our entire rule

13 making process. So just a crazy idea, so.

14 MEMBER PORTER: Gary?

15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: I explained how

16 that's easier though if they still allow the

17 range and we just have a starting point. 

18 Because to me it just sounded more confusing,

19 but I think the starting point minimum still

20 allows the range.

21 MEMBER CLARK: I think where the

22 FT -- if in fact you want to have ratings for
Page 379

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 a given unit that's below the full 15-SEER

2 then I think we're going to run into trouble

3 if it's not been noted on the FTC label.

4 I think that that would be -- that

5 would blow their minds because, in fact,

6 homeowners could buy a product where it was,

7 in fact done here on the range instead of

8 starting here en route. And it would be

9 compliant, I mean, legally acceptable. I

10 mean, it wouldn't be breaking any laws, so.

11 MEMBER SACHS: There was -- this

12 is Harvey. And I hear what I don't hear is a

13 lot of input from what we call the human

14 factors people. And you all call them

15 marketers. 

16 I think if we're going to get

17 serious in talking to the FTC we're going to

18 have to bring in some of these people who have

19 a better feeling for how to figure out how

20 contractors use the label and how consumers

21 understand that label. 

22 I could never build the interface
Page 380

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 for a program on the computer or even a

2 toaster. And I think this is an analogous

3 problem. If we're going to have to to the FTC

4 I'd like to go with having talked to some

5 experts. We have a few in our shop. I know

6 you all have many more through the agencies in

7 your shops. 

8 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan. 

9 Just to maybe contact people and try to get

10 them together, I think whether it's Gary's or

11 they have Karen's, I mean, fundamentally,

12 we're still talking about FTC making some

13 change here, right, as I understand it. No? 

14 So --

15 MR. EISNER: Well, would Karen's

16 idea by a change or just simply a new model

17 number with a different number? 

18 MEMBER SACHS: No, it's a change

19 because it's going to mean --

20 (Simultaneous speaking)

21 MEMBER CLARK: Okay, the bottom

22 range.
Page 381

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

1 MEMBER SACHS: The bottom range

2 would simply be removed because it's no longer

3 relevant, just like 13. Anything -- it

4 doesn't show anything below 13 today. So that

5 national model doesn't really show that.

6 MR. EISNER: Anything else anybody

7 wants to discuss today? Thank you everybody. 

8 Okay. You're all dismissed. Class dismissed.

9 (Whereupon, the meeting in the

10 above-entitled matter was concluded at 4:27

11 p.m.)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 382

A

$10 292:16

$10,000 232:20

$200 95:19 96:1,6

$200,000 38:3

$500 139:11

A-width 351:2,2

a.m 1:9 4:2 113:16

113:17 192:16

A/C 117:12,14

ABC 194:9,9,11

208:16 230:14,15

ABC's 208:18

abide 274:10,20

276:15

abiding 273:21

276:13

ability 6:21 84:1,8

108:12 122:4,18

122:21 166:5

194:7,8 197:22

208:22 254:17

319:16 371:9,12

372:2

able 29:15 30:21

61:13 77:11 93:17

107:13 111:18

115:5 118:18

128:18,22 135:13

137:22 143:22

158:4 245:14

267:22 336:5

338:6 351:18,21

352:5 371:15

372:4,11,21

above-entitled

113:15 192:15

381:10

absolutely 24:1

36:19 42:1 52:16

70:22 71:1 92:8

170:10 171:11

257:15

abuse 371:22

ACCA 2:17 14:16

24:20 33:18 66:5

78:6 81:15 84:17

139:20 156:18

199:19 201:16

216:10 235:11

254:8 255:18,18

259:9 265:19

267:15 283:15

293:18 320:6

acceptable 370:11

379:9

accepting 144:5

access 372:21

accompanying

307:6

accomplish 113:3

accord 177:15

accounting 226:21

accounts 269:9

accreditation 89:6

89:11

accredited 88:22

accurate 202:9,10

321:17 340:15

353:22

ACEEE 22:22

achieve 35:2

163:19 176:3

254:21 255:6

273:1 318:7

achieved 12:9

achieves 332:7

achieving 281:1

acknowledge

363:21

acknowledging

169:15

act 6:20 7:2 97:5,7

100:2 102:7,10

103:9,16,18,20

104:8,14 106:12

191:17

acting 46:4 105:4

action 47:14,19

48:2,8 87:12

109:2 146:22

147:5,21 148:11

actions 47:2 280:8

activated 181:4

active 71:22

actively 158:16

activities 94:6

182:5

activity 147:4

148:2 150:8

acts 75:18 76:2

95:17 96:18,19

97:18 100:22

101:5

actual 33:6 68:15

70:7 89:10 131:11

146:5 147:4

149:12 252:13

373:19

ad 303:10

adapters 103:10

add 21:10 41:21

77:9,15 142:1

155:20 186:9

189:10 196:10

204:6 219:18

234:5 264:11

282:6 292:12

295:14 297:10

369:17 372:14

373:12 377:8

add-on 170:19

added 21:2 99:3

116:7 152:8 207:9

adding 34:9 234:12

282:2 367:12

addition 202:16

354:7,10

additional 76:14

118:13 216:3

367:12

Additions 210:8

address 252:18

253:7 312:17

338:4,6,20 340:10

340:14,15,20

341:2

addressed 338:5

adds 218:20

adequate 91:14

322:12

adequately 322:3,9

adjusted 343:3

administrative

52:20 214:2

advantage 139:14

advertise 80:8

291:3,4

advisory 18:19

advocacy 327:9

advocate 352:11

373:22 374:3

advocates 369:8,13

369:21 374:9

advocating 180:18

181:7

affect 122:3 143:13

145:9,21 152:19

affirmatively 25:11

affirming 32:5

afford 135:14

138:4,4 189:19

201:1 210:16

214:3 264:3

affordable 136:22

afternoon 61:14,16

289:21 294:4

agencies 380:6

agency 109:2 134:3

250:19 327:4

328:12 329:4

agenda 295:19

agent 90:3

agents 109:22

aggregated 285:11

aggressive 29:18

38:1

agnostic 79:20

139:21

ago 26:15 135:8

140:12 159:7

197:11 269:11,12

365:8

agree 12:17 23:18

24:1 36:21 47:1

85:14 112:4 125:9

129:5,7 173:16

275:7 276:18

321:15 334:14

337:3 340:3 345:5

345:11 355:19

356:22 371:8

372:14 373:3

agreeable 271:16

agreed 44:21 47:10

51:17 52:22 53:12

agreeing 348:9

agreement 46:3

51:18 52:22 53:3

53:19 125:18

132:16

agrees 13:12

162:18

AHB 282:14

ahead 46:22 47:7

53:7 56:6 61:8

95:6,7 281:13

AHI 296:20

AHRI 2:8 12:22

22:6,9 31:13,20

31:21 32:9,10,12

32:17,18 58:19

71:10,12,12 72:1

78:16 108:7

130:21 137:8

157:12 159:10

160:2 182:5 184:2

199:20 230:7

AHRI's 22:13,17

69:21 228:18

ain't 124:4

air 1:16 2:4 6:13

7:11,14 8:5 17:10

20:3,14 39:3

45:18,19 60:5

69:9,13 70:3,10

73:20,20 74:1

109:17 114:19

115:14 116:16

117:1,4 128:10

130:13 133:5

138:1 160:5

161:12,14,18

166:9,11 167:7,9

168:7 169:2
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 383

170:22 173:13,15

175:14,15,20

176:5,12 189:10

189:10 193:11

197:3,8 202:1

206:4 209:4 213:4

223:3,7 231:15,17

238:9,12,22 242:5

242:21 247:10,12

260:20 261:9

272:1 283:14,17

283:19 287:22

288:5 289:16,22

306:21 310:3

315:5,10 317:4,12

319:3 326:20

335:22 337:18

Air-Conditioning

2:2

airport 234:17

align 360:15,19

alike 262:19

alive 149:8 200:13

200:14,14

allege 322:14

alleged 149:10

Allied 2:4 157:16

158:7 187:6

278:10 296:12

306:10 308:18

320:17 339:1

347:2 354:5

356:21 366:16

allocation 119:8

allow 69:9 71:8

78:8 81:16 88:17

102:8 115:5 180:9

180:14 240:7

293:7 297:15

308:2,4 327:11

363:12 372:17

378:16

allowed 95:18

119:10 307:15

352:2

allowing 363:21

allows 34:14 88:16

178:12 378:20

alluded 188:11

235:15

altered 69:10

alternate 230:20,20

alternative 69:7

78:9

amalgam 259:22

ambiguity 178:9

350:1 364:7

ambiguous 341:22

amenable 212:16

amended 7:1 15:2

50:21

America 1:17

American 2:1 7:8

amortize 266:20

amount 28:9 65:10

70:4 189:11

238:16 273:19

291:7 325:22

326:7 337:21

371:17 372:16

amounts 245:5

amplify 179:21

AMRANE 2:8

10:18,20 11:2,4

22:8,19 32:13,15

32:21 33:10 73:8

157:11 163:16

295:5,13,17

313:21 323:7

Amy 2:2 28:20

83:14 85:18 108:5

108:6 145:10

296:18,20 297:11

331:4

analogize 148:21

analogous 380:2

analogy 13:2 154:9

273:17 274:4

276:7

analysis 72:8 100:7

ancillary 44:14

and-a-half 76:22

and-or 315:13

317:7

and/or 109:5

Andy 155:16

ANIRUDDH 2:19

announced 51:18

annual 97:6 264:20

annualy 292:7

anomaly 29:10

ansi 255:18,19

Ansi/ACCA 255:20

answer 15:22 20:19

59:12 60:10,15,18

61:14,15 82:20,21

107:11 114:21

115:7,16 121:13

122:15,20 123:1,5

124:22 144:2

145:8 148:6

149:16,19 150:2

151:5,13 152:16

152:20 160:14

162:14 163:1

164:6 176:19

177:4,6,8 188:11

188:17 214:21

227:6,8 238:4,9

243:5 244:10

251:9 289:8 297:5

299:10,15 302:13

304:5 306:1,11

310:4,11,19 316:3

316:5 317:20

318:3 320:4 336:5

369:6

answered 114:7

121:21 185:10,15

296:13 311:17

312:12 330:9

331:19

answering 185:3

227:5

answers 114:9,11

178:1 227:7

239:20 290:18

296:9 301:19

302:1,4 311:2

342:3

anxious 286:1

anybody 28:9

32:16 36:17 66:4

85:10 109:11

114:2,15 156:15

186:2 195:4

207:22 249:7

269:16 270:18

277:22 290:22

381:6

anymore 53:16

76:4 207:2 341:4

anytime 106:16

anyway 124:17

178:21 274:20

anyways 243:6

apartments 245:11

apologize 86:15

110:7 287:9

apparently 78:18

appear 108:18

appearing 67:9

appears 110:6,19

appliance 6:19

62:8 90:12

applicable 18:1

50:11 102:14

121:12

application 12:8

321:6 365:20

application-speci...

276:2

applications 119:6

194:6 351:12

applied 358:20

apply 25:6 95:3

107:8 174:7

appreciate 113:8

182:9 184:17,22

292:6

apprentice 216:14

216:15

apprenticeship

217:1

approach 13:22

16:11 75:13,21

280:4 281:15

282:9,12

approaches 280:6

appropriate 12:15

21:22 90:2 96:9

181:1 210:21

302:17 304:8

appropriately

89:19 100:8

372:12

approval 88:11

89:13 107:6 191:5

191:11,16

approved 69:11,15

approximately

109:16 288:1

area 34:5 35:2 38:9

144:8 215:14,18

215:19 216:1,11

216:13 237:3

275:22 292:12

331:6

areas 19:14 35:5

39:11 117:17

164:8 215:11

241:6 355:1

arem 292:3

arguable 48:17

arguably 101:4

330:13

argue 28:9 108:17

159:17 307:22

308:13 313:8

argument 13:7

65:22

arisen 19:20

Arizona 8:13

Ark 283:18 284:4

289:9

arms 261:7

Armstrong 2:9

91:4 161:20 162:1

162:4,13 163:2,13

171:4,7,12,21

172:13,21 173:2,7

173:17 174:11,20

174:22 175:4,9

176:21 300:7,13

300:15,19 301:2,6
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 384

301:11,21 302:21

303:6,14,17,21

306:4,13 307:4,22

308:8,13,22 309:5

309:14 310:6,10

310:20 311:1,11

312:10,19 313:6

313:13 315:2

316:5,17 317:3

318:13,21 319:10

328:2 335:12

336:4 338:3,14

340:1,7,9,13

343:12 344:1,9,13

345:6 350:11

356:5 357:2,6,22

359:13 360:14

361:4,8 362:22

363:6,11,20

arrive 209:3

arrow 296:7

articulated 10:4

articulating 312:13

as-installed 256:9

Ashley 2:9 91:3

162:2,17 163:9

164:3 176:17

177:14 301:4

302:20 303:1

312:6,7,21 332:15

335:17 344:15

356:20

Ashley's 172:19

ASHRAE 199:20

aside 153:10 199:3

238:14

asked 13:19 21:9

22:5 43:6 85:18

88:8 96:16 100:17

164:3 244:3

259:15 263:6

302:4 320:4 326:8

asking 43:12 75:9

76:16 81:20 114:5

117:21 153:10

160:2 162:17

172:20 177:4

181:17 192:7

326:8 328:3,10

356:16 359:14,15

360:3 365:14

asks 88:13

aspect 106:18

201:8 291:17

aspects 193:8

199:13 217:11

assemble 15:10

63:4

assembler 13:9

14:19

assembles 13:6

assembling 15:7

68:10

assembly 98:7

assert 45:15

assess 49:22 53:9

58:15 95:16,18

220:16 372:4

assessed 51:19

assessment 86:7,9

92:22

assignment 254:6

associated 269:13

association 2:3,14

2:21 7:9 54:14

139:20 199:18

associations 359:16

assume 105:13

230:14 231:20

355:10

assumes 323:4

assuming 290:8

assumption 39:2

60:14 153:17

assumptions 297:9

assurance 91:14

285:12 358:8

assure 23:14 92:5

Atlanta 247:10

atomic 292:9

attach 209:1

attached 51:9

154:22

attacks 160:15

attempted 95:4

attendance 4:9,14

attention 78:18

311:6

audit 36:10 69:3

auditing 82:2

audits 41:7

AUGUST 1:7

authority 16:4

45:15 84:4,11,15

84:17 85:6,16,20

87:12,14 90:10

98:4,20 99:6,21

101:2,6,10 108:14

automating 183:20

available 31:21

32:6 72:14 157:21

184:1,9,10 243:18

269:16 283:8

363:7

avenue 249:7

average 126:16

159:11 160:5

267:12

avoid 35:8,9,11

166:11 277:10

325:13

avoiding 125:21

awarding 145:7

aware 42:20 108:13

233:2 257:15

296:5

awareness 26:14

41:12 43:10,19

axe 137:13

axle 330:12

B

B 350:19 351:5,10

back 6:3,4,8 8:9

14:8 16:22 17:7

18:6 20:13 34:16

38:19 41:18,19

43:2 49:13 60:6

69:2 71:1,1 74:7

79:4 80:4 82:18

84:4,6 86:16

91:17 92:10,20

100:6 103:13

107:10 112:5

114:10,12 119:19

121:11 129:14,17

134:11 135:7

139:11 143:6

152:3 154:8,16

155:1,4 160:1,13

176:17 177:17

181:5 184:4,18

192:12 198:22

200:11 211:9

220:14 222:20

225:19 228:12

229:8,10 231:13

234:15 239:19

240:11 241:5,6,21

254:9 258:4

260:10 261:13

283:5 293:4

294:12 299:4,17

301:16 303:7,22

315:3 319:21

327:12 338:21

339:20 340:11,13

353:13 378:12

background 35:19

118:13 159:1

245:13

bad 95:11 103:5

133:10 189:13,14

195:13 276:7

278:14 293:11,12

307:3 320:8,15,18

badly 195:14

balance 277:15,18

ball 186:5

Ballo 1:12 52:7,11

54:3 73:5 156:7

157:2,5 284:19,20

285:3 346:13

353:21 355:3,19

356:1 364:10

372:13

ballpark 134:11

band 354:6

bar 157:21 333:7

354:15

barely 126:12

Barhydt 2:10 84:20

361:22 362:8,12

362:15

barn 55:7

barring 52:15

base 69:5,16,18

70:6 74:2,3 75:13

139:17 209:15

249:18 335:1

based 14:7 17:12

18:15 62:9 69:6

122:19 163:6

173:12 174:9

263:16 307:4

313:13 318:22

319:9 321:20

324:16 330:5

332:7,14 337:10

337:11 338:1,10

345:22 352:20

baseline 8:7 211:1

basement 57:10

203:1

bases 288:17

322:16

bash 270:15

basic 73:19,21 75:7

82:7 86:6 117:19

214:21 292:8

325:16

basically 8:2 62:10

99:4 187:8 243:9

327:16

basis 37:9 40:9

80:20 81:3,9 98:3

372:6

battle 261:17

bear 134:8 296:2

375:15

bearing 137:21

becoming 242:12

242:13,15

beg 197:5,9

behalf 90:6 356:6

behaving 91:15
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 385

behavior 26:13

145:7 146:14

151:15 355:18

behaviors 209:19

belabor 90:22

93:21

believe 12:5 46:3

91:14 115:10

159:10 185:21

202:19 227:19

280:20 281:2

310:11 334:19

351:9

Bend 193:3 236:22

benefit 37:17 172:4

benefits 133:17

217:11

best 16:12 25:2

64:1,13 68:4

128:5 134:10,10

136:12 137:20

152:3 200:18

201:2 204:10

212:7 225:1,9

226:6 241:18

246:13 289:7

305:9 312:17,19

322:6,17 358:7

375:22

bet 270:18

bets 159:8

better 38:17 55:5

75:4,20 78:4 95:6

95:8 133:14 134:6

135:12 142:11

143:4 166:2,4

189:8 198:17,18

201:4 202:18

213:1 225:1

229:15 253:4

289:12,14 375:7

379:19

better-best 78:10

beyond 78:13

87:12

big 35:4 37:1 61:7

61:20 63:22 67:18

97:3 124:8 138:5

138:14 166:19,19

166:22 184:20

205:2,14 215:9,22

238:16,18 245:22

246:8 253:5

264:18 270:17

287:1,18 293:6

big-box 66:13,14

66:17,18

big-box-retailer

66:19

bigger 41:16

187:22 188:1

214:11 221:3

224:12 226:22

245:10 280:14,19

biggest 167:4

212:18 260:17

276:14

bill 293:1

billable 226:13

billed 207:1

billing 226:20

binoculars 364:9

bit 6:11 29:10

58:20 63:2 70:11

114:13 115:6

140:18 142:11

145:19 165:22

177:22 204:14

293:3

bite 206:2

black 277:8

Blackville 283:16

blade 127:10,11

135:17

blah 106:10,10,10

106:11,11

Blain 116:16

blow 277:14 378:10

379:5

blower 20:15

137:16 141:8

165:3 171:10,14

172:5,17 174:19

board 39:13 136:11

136:14 210:3,6

Bob 249:1

body 375:9

boggling 55:15

boiler 15:9

boils 187:9 302:8

Bonneville 34:14

34:16

book 214:22 273:4

286:6

boom 136:7

booted 180:14

border 286:18

364:13

borrow 225:10

boss 262:13 266:7,8

269:5 272:7,11,11

bottles 365:4,4

bottom 17:20 169:4

195:19,20,21

203:19 206:17

212:19 324:4

336:20 354:15

356:3 380:21

381:1

bought 206:11

218:2 259:22

261:2 275:1

bound 197:15

box 23:3,7 63:22

79:17,18 138:6,21

180:21 201:21

202:2,4 246:15,16

255:9 333:6

boxes 358:10,12

brain 54:19,20

brainstorm 299:6

brand 63:16,18

110:8 230:21

261:10 362:9

brands 287:20

288:2

bread 136:18

break 62:4 113:9

113:11 117:22

151:4 191:3

205:20 301:7,10

301:12,14

breaking 379:10

Brenda 16:20

Brian 115:18 117:9

brief 106:3

bright 263:9,9

bring 5:13 47:2

54:10 79:4 93:5

117:5 189:16

225:10 231:14

283:5 286:6 312:2

375:15 379:18

brings 19:19

broad 8:11 16:4

84:7 98:6,21

112:14 193:7

226:10

broader 39:17,19

74:17 75:19 97:15

98:4 311:16

broadly 43:21 85:9

85:16 99:21 112:9

370:18

broke 206:16

brothers 293:6

brought 80:3 137:5

160:19 190:15

229:9 296:4

Bruce 87:22 91:3

Bruce's 90:6,14

brush 226:10

Bryan 1:22 130:17

132:1 181:14

190:15 265:7

283:12,13 286:16

287:8 332:10

335:15

BTU 365:19

BTUs 8:18,19,20

buck 200:9

bucks 266:8

buddy 226:14

budget 189:11

196:17 198:21

290:13,20 291:4

292:8,11

build 119:17 120:1

188:16 307:13,18

370:20 379:22

builders 2:22

240:10 241:5

293:21

building 35:8 36:16

42:16 68:14

builds 63:8

built 68:1

bulk 118:19

bullet 358:19

bullets 273:19

bumped 307:18

bumper 196:13

bunch 204:19

237:3

burden 83:9 132:7

142:1 207:10

218:14 294:8

370:14

burdens 254:12

277:22

burdensome

366:10

bureaucratic

191:12

buried 7:17

business 4:7,8,13

4:18 111:2,4

193:3,7 201:6

203:5,6,17 204:4

204:9,18 205:11

207:12,21 211:12

212:22 213:16

214:8 215:3,6

219:19 220:19,20

223:11,14 229:15

230:1 237:20

238:5,11 239:2,5

240:12 241:17

252:3,18 253:7

258:21 264:18

265:13 266:3,16

266:18,18 267:4

267:16 268:5,20

268:21,22 269:6,8

269:18 285:21,21
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 386

367:10 370:12

businesses 205:15

238:7 268:9

butt 133:8

Butte 261:22

buy 25:3 28:4 64:2

64:14 65:15 93:5

132:3 135:18,22

138:1 194:9 196:1

202:6 204:19,19

205:16,18 209:21

229:6 232:15,20

246:19 261:19

262:18 270:2,4

272:16,19 273:11

283:21 323:19

347:7 353:14

379:6

buying 35:10 138:6

232:5 246:2

buys 58:1 64:1

buzz 150:1

C

c 7:19,19 350:19

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

3:9

cabinet 218:5

263:12 350:20

351:10

cabinets 206:17,18

247:2 263:21

Calabrese 2:11

58:8,8,13 104:16

108:22

calculates 205:5

calculation 79:16

202:11,21 244:17

calculations 202:12

calculator 78:6

California 1:14,17

8:13 11:21 26:12

34:19 41:22 42:12

44:1,6 88:3 90:9

90:11,15 124:15

217:13 275:22

276:4,15

call 7:21 11:1 42:11

45:9 151:4 193:19

197:5,9 221:6,9

228:12 233:6,13

243:7 260:10

270:5 271:10,19

320:18 368:2

379:13,14

callback 133:12

callbacks 133:12

called 69:10 93:10

195:1 352:4

calling 195:4

224:13 244:5

259:21

calls 217:17,20

220:21

camera 208:22

capability 78:11

304:16

capacitors 238:17

capacity 70:12

166:6 168:10,19

168:22 181:2,3

365:19

captured 178:18

capturing 124:18

car 196:12

carburetor 55:5

card 4:7,8,13,18

218:15 219:14

253:6

cards 5:13 217:14

252:15,16,18

care 62:18 79:21

124:8 197:1

218:22 229:21

236:1,6 249:16

328:22 329:1

336:18

career 198:3 200:1

209:16

careful 92:18

140:18 141:11,13

284:3

Carolyn 255:13

Carolyn's 204:7

carpet 209:12

247:2

carried 324:7

Carrier 1:15 31:9

225:18 247:11

carries 371:10

carrot 80:8 138:14

139:1,4

carrots 274:9 292:1

carry 272:13

carrying 295:3

case 12:5 54:8,8

64:5 92:3 126:16

133:22 225:17,20

257:13 273:10

304:21 305:22

322:16,17 344:2

344:14 349:7

370:5,6

cased 228:10

cases 54:10 224:11

246:18 271:14

285:7 324:1 370:5

cash 237:5 267:5

291:8

categories 14:20

209:19

category 210:5

caught 294:10

cause 71:6 323:19

325:12

causes 179:12

causing 26:21 54:1

caveat 301:22

caveats 258:18

CCMS 77:16 78:16

CEC 91:14

center 277:9

364:14

centers 117:10

central 6:13 45:18

45:19 69:9,13

70:3 73:20,20

147:3 152:15

287:22 289:22

364:14

cents 138:9 292:3

certain 7:4 40:2

86:12 88:20 93:15

130:19 141:22

179:19 210:5

246:3 265:22

273:19 279:17

285:11 291:7

314:11 325:22

326:6 372:15

certainly 30:9 91:2

135:11 156:3

182:10 285:15

307:8 369:2

certificate 22:11

31:13 236:8

certificates 235:19

certification 32:22

33:5 34:13 62:11

72:2 74:11,19

75:1,22 88:10,15

97:6 119:20 182:6

184:3

certified 34:15

69:19 71:12 90:18

119:20 137:3

294:21 309:20

311:9,14 318:6

351:19 356:14,19

362:16,20,20

certify 32:16 68:11

70:17 103:6 363:2

363:3

certifying 69:12,16

311:8

CFR 8:4 9:17 11:9

15:3 52:16,19

62:9

CFRs 54:16

chain 24:14 50:2

67:3

chalk 137:12

challenged 209:21

challenges 210:4

challenging 213:11

242:16

chance 139:3

155:21

chances 272:3

change 27:7,9

38:18 50:12 52:15

53:17 55:4 74:21

76:17 121:7

125:13 127:8,11

133:8,16,19,22

134:12,17 135:6

135:16,17,18,19

135:20,21 158:18

162:5 198:15,16

199:1,4 299:17

321:9,19,21 349:6

367:10 376:6

380:13,16,18

change-outs 198:5

changed 50:8 55:8

133:6 140:13

198:3 254:11

275:14 353:4,5

changes 27:16

256:6

changing 125:12

125:21 133:13

134:1 135:5,7

198:6 251:22

252:1 362:17

374:10 378:8

channel 185:5,11

chapter 216:13

charge 45:20 119:1

119:4 124:17

139:22 159:18

259:18 260:1

270:9 293:3

charged 45:21 52:1

116:9 119:7,17

charging 103:2

124:15 128:22

266:8

CHARLES 2:3,17

Charlie 14:13,15

24:18,20 28:21

66:4,5 96:21

106:4 139:19

156:18 192:6

257:2 259:6,8

264:16 320:6
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 387

Charlie's 250:14

274:6 369:5

chart 231:8

charts 231:6

chat 301:12

cheaper 132:3

327:1,10 328:8,18

cheat 274:5,5

cheater 330:7

cheating 102:4

203:20

check 86:11 237:5

254:14

checked 260:11

checks 33:19

Chernobyl 36:6

children 215:5

chime 366:17

choice 78:10

136:22 224:22,22

224:22 326:22

choices 29:16 134:8

196:7 228:20

231:10

chomping 165:22

177:22

choose 92:19

319:17

chosen 158:16

Chuck 3:16 56:9

79:1 109:14,15

125:7 129:15

132:17 139:6

151:13 178:4

184:5 193:1 210:9

219:10 229:9

233:7 248:13

252:2 260:16

265:9,18,19

275:11 281:22

282:15

Chuck's 258:11

chunk 270:17

circle 231:12

circled 60:6

circulation 269:16

circumvent 101:19

citizen 109:8

273:21

city 236:21,22

283:18 284:4

289:9

civil 45:2 49:22

50:3,20 53:10

56:15 57:4 58:10

58:15,17,21 81:12

86:20 95:3,15,16

95:18

claims 23:13

clammies 166:11

clarification 20:9

33:13 46:3 56:10

66:11 73:14 98:3

110:20

clarify 44:21

145:18 162:12

279:15 318:19

335:16

clarity 348:21

Clark 1:13 27:22

27:22 28:6,8,14

31:16,18 32:1

129:6 144:3,19

166:19 167:2,12

186:4,7,16 271:13

271:16 272:5,10

274:17 275:5

276:8 278:20

323:11,11 333:12

335:10 337:20

338:2 339:13,17

341:12,16,21

342:5 343:5 344:6

348:7 349:3,14

350:5,7,16 351:16

352:3 353:9,13

361:12,18 362:10

362:14 367:13,19

377:1,10,12 378:7

378:21 380:21

class 6:7 145:4

216:15 381:8

classes 216:9

clean 275:12

cleaning 238:15

clear 9:21 41:21

73:17 75:11 103:3

106:7 115:16

142:4 171:22

172:1 178:17

257:6 278:12

287:6 340:22

348:13 349:22

clears 312:8

Clearwater 262:1

clicked 209:4

client 208:8 209:15

249:18 361:9

clients 206:9

close 124:17 294:16

369:2

closed 377:18

378:2

closer 375:18

closest 234:13

258:7

clue 240:8 247:14

Clunkers 291:8

CMS 325:5

co-op 30:12 38:1

coalition 256:5

code 79:15 240:6,6

271:19

code's 268:8

Codes 42:5

cognizant 191:12

Cohen 2:12 219:21

219:21 220:14

221:14,20 222:5

222:10,13,16,18

222:20 224:2,7

225:13 227:11,20

230:3,11 325:14

328:4,11,20 329:2

331:22

coil 18:18 19:7,8,16

19:22 20:6,11

21:2,11,22 23:20

35:11 55:4 116:12

134:17 135:18,19

137:4,15 141:15

161:16 162:19

163:3,5,10,18

165:3 166:8 168:8

168:13,17,22

169:16 171:9,10

171:13,15 172:1,2

172:3,5,17 173:12

173:21 174:8,17

174:17 175:12

176:1 178:22

179:11,15 181:16

182:2,14 183:2

189:13 194:10,13

198:10,15 222:2

222:14 228:1,10

228:11,13,14,15

230:21 231:7

239:17 302:14

304:6,15,22 305:1

305:19 306:2

307:16,17,20

308:8,11,15,20

313:2,4 314:9,12

315:12,14,17,19

317:5,7,11,14

322:6,6 323:1

332:17,20 333:3,3

337:5,19 342:16

350:8,18 351:3,6

355:10 359:5

365:20

coil's 353:4

coil-only 333:14

coils 60:5 165:12

171:1 179:19

194:12 230:15

232:16 247:13

260:17 262:19

302:9 304:1,12

305:16 310:15

312:2 336:15

362:16

cold 166:11 197:6

220:21 224:13

colleagues 54:16

collect 4:15 44:3

45:16,16 81:6,16

84:8 208:4

collecting 107:7

collection 57:4

70:15 97:8

collectively 299:12

collects 44:1

college 196:12

200:3,5

color 154:10

combination 22:18

73:15,19,22

173:22 193:17

247:12 302:11

304:3 315:12

317:6 319:4,6,8

319:14 332:17

333:13 334:7,17

334:22 335:6

336:2 337:12

344:3 346:7 347:5

347:17 348:5,11

348:16 349:2

350:3,4 351:20

353:15 356:4,14

360:1,17 377:7,15

377:22

combinations

72:22 73:2,16

171:5 314:11

333:15 338:8

343:9,14,19 344:4

349:18

combine 40:8

combined 22:15

126:13

come 6:5,8 7:5 9:7

9:17,19 18:13

27:14,15 29:13

30:1 34:6 41:18

53:5,14,18 61:17

62:1 67:13 70:10

82:18 96:13 99:22

100:19 114:13

130:1 134:7

177:15,17 192:12

192:20 195:9

197:6 203:6 216:7
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 388

221:16 234:3

251:19 253:14

261:13 265:12

289:13 296:8

299:3 309:20

324:10 325:2

337:22 338:15

352:12 371:5

comes 25:7 92:10

128:6 134:2,13

155:1,4 161:12

164:8 174:4

189:13 206:1

216:17 221:15

229:9 254:15

271:2 273:10

296:6 301:2

329:16 336:13,14

comfort 166:14

comfortable

285:10 373:1

coming 4:22 99:16

100:17 152:5

154:11 194:19

199:18 229:8

258:4 295:22

296:8 341:7 364:3

commensurate

118:4

comment 60:17

66:6 73:6 151:14

188:10 257:2

294:13

comments 12:20

14:8 66:12 125:11

184:18 254:10

319:18 374:7

commerce 65:19

67:7,10,14,15,20

102:11

commercial 15:8

62:14 91:11 193:9

commercial/indu...

215:17

commission 1:17

17:1 38:11 42:7

42:13 44:1,6 88:3

90:9

commissioned

269:14

commit 95:17

280:21

common 18:18

158:15 208:20

238:1 260:6

commonly 170:20

communicate

185:5 287:11

323:18 364:20

communicated

242:15

communicating

286:22 290:1

communication

346:2

communities 240:5

240:8

compact 198:13

companies 214:1

company 1:13,19

2:19 19:20 34:8

208:16 216:19

225:5 226:13

230:11 272:2

comparative 72:8

compare 25:1,1

72:13

comparison 353:8

competition 213:17

277:4

competitive 224:15

competitors 274:14

complaint 96:3,5

276:14

complaints 146:2

complete 329:6

completed 316:15

325:17

completely 23:11

166:7 237:19

276:21 340:2,4

369:22

complex 241:14,15

compliance 10:6

12:9,11,16 39:20

42:11,15,20 43:9

43:19 44:2,4 45:5

47:17,18 49:5

68:5,11 74:13

75:4 76:1,3 80:16

102:13,17 122:10

141:2 143:20

145:13,14,17

146:2,16 149:15

257:17 273:1

297:9 309:16,17

329:12,14 336:17

370:8 371:13

372:18 373:9

374:4 375:16

compliant 21:12

23:14 80:16 81:22

82:10 94:13 103:1

103:4 144:11,11

145:8 146:20

153:15 159:21

169:17 243:8

246:21 257:10

279:14 333:22

353:2 367:15

379:9

complicated 19:2

54:19 169:5

242:12

complicating 55:9

complications

134:19,20

complied 276:4

complies 131:17

257:12

complimentary

78:3

comply 41:3 57:8

74:16 94:21

122:17 143:19

146:3,4,6 190:2

273:20 282:11

315:18 317:13

complying 41:14

47:4 75:2 93:18

147:8

component 115:20

115:22 117:11,15

117:16 118:2,3,16

119:9 126:7,22

127:6 135:5 141:2

141:5 186:22

187:9,15 232:6

270:3

components 57:8

78:12 151:9

190:16,17 260:18

comprehensive

276:11

compressor 127:7

127:9 133:16

134:1 135:6,18

137:6 138:4 141:7

195:12 198:5,9

199:5 238:14

315:11 317:5

compressors 133:7

133:21 134:12

135:8 198:3 199:1

computer 225:10

244:21 251:7

252:3 259:11

263:20 380:1

conceivable 183:17

concern 74:22

119:22 120:10

155:2 179:2

284:20 292:21

323:17 355:4

concerned 67:21

193:12 212:19

287:13 336:22

concerns 83:5

185:1,2 312:11

325:6

concluded 381:10

condenser 21:11

22:15 118:5,8

152:7 170:17

181:18,22 182:7

183:11 184:13

187:9,17 195:13

255:6 259:17

311:18 315:12

317:5 319:9 330:6

336:15 342:16

condensing 22:1

23:20 116:6

118:14,16 119:3

124:8 127:8,14

128:7,13,15

133:13,19 137:15

141:5,7,14 160:7

164:12 166:9

174:6,15 175:12

176:1 182:13

183:19 189:14

190:5 194:9,11

198:16 228:1

230:15 260:16

262:18 270:4,20

272:19 295:1

302:9,14 304:1,6

304:12,15 305:4

305:10 306:3,21

307:13,19 308:3

310:12,16 311:15

314:8,12,14 362:2

362:7 366:5

conditioned 189:10

conditioner 6:13

7:14 8:5 17:10

73:21 74:1 115:14

116:16 117:1,5

128:10 161:14,18

173:14,16 189:10

197:4 202:1 209:4

213:4 231:15,17

242:21 247:11,12

260:20 261:9

310:3 315:11

317:4,12 319:3

335:22 337:18

conditioners 39:4

45:18,19 114:19

138:2 160:5

161:12 206:4

283:17,19 287:22

288:5 289:17,22

315:6
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 389

conditioning 1:16

7:11 69:9,13 70:3

73:20 109:17

130:13 133:5

193:11 197:8

223:4,7 238:10,12

239:1 242:6 272:1

283:14 306:21

conditions 59:19

180:15 240:2

353:7

conducting 108:19

confer 107:1

111:22

conference 46:1

confidence 111:12

confidential 110:17

110:18,19 111:2,4

111:8,12,16 112:3

112:4 207:21

285:6

confidentiality

110:16 269:13

configuring 247:7

confirm 106:21

231:1 232:4

conflict 347:8

confused 166:3

172:18 287:14

327:6

confusing 320:19

347:3 378:18

confusion 9:11

14:17 66:16 164:8

164:21 323:19

325:12 354:22

358:22

Congress 65:10,10

87:6 98:14 101:6

103:9 104:22

105:14 292:13

conjunction 180:22

connect 270:7

connected 180:10

connection 312:3

conscious 288:11

consensus 148:17

256:1 320:7

consequence 80:14

313:18

consequences

41:13 80:11

conservation 6:20

102:14

consider 73:18

76:2 218:10 263:3

280:3 281:6

290:11 297:7

consideration

276:22

considerations

137:17,18

considered 13:8,10

15:5,11 65:22

82:15 105:11

127:6,14 128:9,15

152:9 186:22

187:18,19

consistent 101:3

226:9 300:5,6,8

consistently 226:9

consternation

179:13

constrained 15:21

constraint 141:13

constraints 198:21

construction

123:15 193:13

194:8

consult 246:20

247:2

consumer 21:1,10

23:14 24:4 25:20

26:13 55:12,18

58:1 62:13,18

64:2,17 65:20

70:20 78:10

123:11 137:21

138:19 182:8

189:21 218:7

221:9 246:14

325:12 326:21

327:9 330:20

355:6 370:1

consumer's 322:21

355:14

consumers 23:10

23:21 24:7,11,22

26:1,16 28:3

38:13 77:12 130:5

139:8 184:12

195:3 233:10

254:20 297:2

298:5 331:6

353:22 355:17,20

373:8,17 379:20

contact 93:12

205:3 380:9

contacted 221:1

contained 252:10

containers 158:4

contempt 87:5

content 112:17

373:16

context 39:5,17

50:17 59:22 67:18

69:8 79:3 97:14

98:1 148:22

162:22 164:4

170:4 181:5

187:18 293:17

294:5 365:22

continue 153:11

268:5

continuing 153:20

contract 23:13

25:14 31:4 91:18

265:16

contracting 89:16

91:5 136:3 193:7

contractor 19:9

21:15,21 24:14

25:7,11 26:17

34:20 35:8 36:7

48:21 55:19 57:6

57:9,16 65:15

66:17 76:9 78:8

104:2 123:11,12

124:19 132:22

136:12,13 138:20

143:11 159:20

182:22 184:4

193:18 195:5,16

196:19 202:8

208:21 210:13

211:6 215:15,19

226:2 228:22

232:7,11 233:18

243:12 247:21,22

254:19 257:8

261:3 265:10

270:9,13 271:17

272:21 276:3

283:15 285:4,10

287:1 293:18

294:9 346:10,18

355:9 358:9,13

364:5,9 369:11

contractor's 23:13

57:13 133:12

204:3 236:18,20

284:10,21

contractors 1:16

2:3 24:9 25:4

29:18 34:3 57:22

77:12 78:4 79:2

129:17 131:15

132:17 134:9

137:19 139:21

140:3 195:21,22

200:7 201:15,18

203:7 208:7,7,16

213:8,11 216:5

232:4 235:10,13

236:1 238:17

239:3,16 243:14

243:15 246:8

247:5 249:4 250:9

253:2,18 254:12

258:19 259:4,14

262:13 265:12

268:9,17 269:4,14

270:10 275:9

276:13,15,17

277:1 287:20

288:7,20 291:15

346:3 349:10

374:19 379:20

contrary 25:22

control 101:18

170:5 181:1,20

227:3 270:2

273:17 284:8,9

336:9

controlled 181:2

269:15

controllers 242:14

Controls 1:22

115:19

controversial

273:16

convened 1:8

conversation 114:3

142:21 148:3,8

248:11 264:11

319:22 323:6

369:1

converting 140:7

convince 143:3

convincing 300:22

cool 118:5 206:3

351:9

cooler 15:1,5

341:15

cooler/freezer

14:18

cooling 70:11

351:11

Cooperative 1:14

2:14

cooperatives 37:2

258:14

cop 36:9

copies 79:11 111:6

copy 5:17 10:13

16:15 59:15 111:6

111:6

cornerstone 68:7

corporate 286:7

Corporation 1:15

2:11 58:9

correct 11:9,19

14:22 19:8 22:7

32:19 33:1 36:19

42:1 52:19 56:19
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 390

77:19 92:6,8,14

99:10 110:21

121:1 128:20

156:21 202:4

216:22 227:7

248:14 256:12

257:21 324:14

337:16 347:11

363:20

correctly 321:11

362:1

correspond 37:8

cost 35:9 124:12

129:22 130:7

201:10,11 213:5

221:10,11 223:8

225:22 252:2

258:22 266:20

274:16 282:5,6

costing 195:8

costs 125:21 133:15

201:13

Council 1:20 2:1

Counsel 1:21 84:20

count 132:20 360:8

counted 288:1

counter 286:4

countermand

85:11

country 17:17

19:12 30:8 290:16

293:5 307:10

368:4

counts 213:15,15

county 237:1,1

couple 24:20 54:18

88:13 137:19

160:9 239:19

250:18 259:10

262:11,12,17

263:15 264:1,5,10

269:11 280:4

302:3 373:14

course 14:12 18:15

48:18 68:3 69:2

84:5 99:20 100:3

101:16 104:12

107:18 114:8

149:10 260:12

296:6 364:4

376:13

court 84:12 85:21

85:22 86:19 87:5

87:7,8,8,9,12,13

108:18 317:2

327:12

courthouse 274:11

courts 295:12

cover 68:1,3 159:8

covered 81:18 82:8

101:15,15,18

149:21 185:20

covering 322:15

covers 69:22

215:18

Craigslist 259:12

crank 211:8

crazy 156:1 291:18

341:16 377:1,3

378:13

create 16:5 44:19

141:21 188:3

277:8

created 6:21 74:19

228:4 247:13

creating 81:18

98:22

creative 298:3

credibility 371:1

credit 232:13,13

credits 39:15 40:9

crime 149:2

criminal 58:10

148:22

criminally 58:12

criteria 75:3 88:9

88:14

critical 151:12

202:11 235:4

crossroads 197:22

cue 88:19

cultivating 211:12

cure 353:15

curious 67:1 208:3

225:15

current 50:9 76:21

82:16 83:9 157:16

302:15 304:7,17

318:22 319:2

354:4,5

currently 18:12

50:7 68:20 70:4

96:20 104:14

118:2 191:10

319:16

curve 186:4

customer 23:5 36:7

123:19 140:2

151:6 166:13,13

207:13 210:5

243:19 245:8

288:17,22 289:6

customers 30:11

130:4 131:19

151:3 188:14

206:8 249:6,6,9

253:3 259:16

285:22 287:12

290:1 349:1

361:17

cut 119:2 137:13

291:11,12 294:15

CVI 107:19

cycle 372:3

D

D.C 1:9 277:17

DA 154:16

dad 200:14

Daiken 58:9

Daikin 2:11 104:16

daily 80:20 81:9

Dallas 294:1

Dan 2:12 219:21

235:18 325:3,14

darn 189:12

data 32:20 41:7

43:9,17 44:1,3,9

68:16 81:6,8,19

81:21 82:1,2

88:10,15 92:10

119:20 120:4

129:22 184:20

211:3 269:10

329:14 330:5

database 33:6

69:19,20,21 71:10

71:11,16 73:7

75:8 76:19 77:11

80:5,7 184:3

206:9 251:5,6

252:3 254:20

289:20 342:8,11

342:19

date 10:5,8,8,21

11:6,7,12,17

17:14 45:5 47:17

47:18 115:13

158:17

Dave 2:4 32:6 44:7

58:8 74:6 104:15

104:16 108:21

157:15 158:7

167:15,17 170:14

172:8 187:5 278:9

296:12,17 306:9

308:17 320:16

338:22 345:2,8

347:2 354:5

356:21 365:3

366:15

Dave's 353:10

David 1:17 2:11

109:7

day 46:16 95:21

102:18 136:21

210:6 217:4 239:8

240:18 246:7

260:10 330:7

349:11 369:3

376:9

days 58:19 134:15

202:17 208:21

221:2 265:11

de 128:17 218:1

dead 149:8 375:9

deal 96:21 205:4

287:16 327:3

361:11

dealer 104:2

205:15 226:3,3

253:1 283:14

323:21 324:2

dealers 226:22

dealership 227:14

dealerships 226:2

dealing 210:4,20,22

223:12 224:14

287:19 336:16

death 133:13

debate 77:8

decade 26:15 160:6

365:7

decades 269:11

December 47:6

159:2

decide 39:11,21

49:21 82:9 147:13

170:1,3 291:1

decided 7:5 14:2

279:18

decides 165:11

deciding 143:14

decision 195:10

295:14 367:3

decisions 196:6

deck 5:18

deep 276:11 277:2

334:22

Defense 1:19

defer 314:16

329:20

define 59:9,13,14

62:21 73:21

105:14,21 319:10

319:11 334:12

defined 59:21,22

63:22 65:1,3

104:17 105:1

115:21 117:15

118:15 119:7

126:7 128:13

161:15 162:8,19

173:22 331:15,18

defines 104:21

161:13
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 391

defining 115:16

141:4,14 188:4

definite 168:10

definitely 14:9 51:7

125:6 363:15

definition 46:10

59:21 60:8 98:6

114:22 115:19

116:1 117:10

118:2,3 161:17

162:18 164:5

278:12

definitions 65:4

278:11 296:14

definitive 20:19

310:19

degrees 197:3

294:3

delineated 99:6

deliver 67:10

delivered 64:17

65:20

Delivery 101:17

demand 197:9

demanding 197:12

demonstrate 76:3

demonstrated

370:2

Dennis 2:13 38:22

38:22 40:18 41:5

denominator

158:15

dentist 259:21

deny 231:1

denying 15:11

department 1:1,21

2:9,10,12,15,20

3:14 13:14 20:17

45:10 51:16 56:1

58:11 59:8 68:13

69:11,16 77:1

84:16,16 85:1

86:10 88:16 94:4

94:9,18 99:13

104:20 108:4,7

113:21 120:17

134:2 147:6 183:7

184:2 185:15

191:11 219:22

240:18 278:1

290:19 303:7

312:7,10 325:4

356:7

Department's 57:3

97:16 98:5,15

111:16 356:7

depend 20:11

211:6

dependent 263:1

depending 34:22

130:10 164:16

169:16 209:15

210:12

depends 19:7,8,21

20:3,5 208:6,15

213:21 220:10,19

223:1 225:4 227:9

239:4 244:7

deposited 23:7

Depot 246:15

describe 226:7

319:16

described 45:19

167:13 307:2

describes 7:20 8:2

describing 9:14

13:5

design 122:18

198:12 245:18

275:9,15 294:11

344:16,17,21

360:20

designated 84:19

designed 24:22

28:11 124:6

365:19 366:18

desk 231:13

detail 208:19

determinations

81:11

determine 21:2

147:7 148:4 173:3

173:3 174:1

determining 90:13

163:12

develop 98:14

101:4 122:4

143:21 146:1

148:19 150:18

152:20 155:15

330:17 331:5

developed 256:1

developing 50:17

121:19 145:6

211:14 226:20

device 175:15

176:6,12 305:8

devices 278:2

Devil's 352:11

devise 38:5

diagnose 195:11

dialogue 247:20

257:8,16

diamonds 242:9

diatribe 193:6

dictate 12:16 133:3

336:9

dictates 292:13

dictating 15:4

143:12

dictionary 59:21

die 28:16

difference 11:18

37:1 49:7 135:21

171:8,9 258:20

284:1 293:15

different 17:13

18:19 37:5,12

39:16 51:12 54:17

62:9 88:13 102:1

116:14 125:14

138:15 143:5

149:14 162:21

164:4 169:8

170:18 171:2

172:20 174:22

175:5 209:18

220:7 221:22

233:15 238:8

239:4 240:13

273:9 280:4

282:19 299:15

306:5 319:7

322:11 323:1

325:20 328:11

329:4 359:18

363:15 365:11,17

368:21 377:5

380:17

differentiate

268:16 360:5

differentiating

359:20

differently 14:19

95:9 233:7

difficult 57:17

151:17 194:17

198:6 199:10

240:22 277:16

278:18

difficulties 294:14

difficulty 7:18

240:15

diligent 210:13

dime 210:2

dimension 228:15

228:16

diminishment

314:4

dire 265:21

direct 7:5 139:22

direction 55:10,20

132:10 366:7

directions 56:2

directly 90:11

100:20 298:19

directory 22:9,10

24:11,12 26:3

31:20 78:16

354:17 359:7

directs 346:14

dirty 260:5

disagree 131:2,7

307:8

disagreeing 26:10

disagreement

347:22

disappointed 140:4

314:1,2

disappointing

306:20 313:18

disappointment

307:9 314:5

disassemble 198:7

discontinue 83:1

discourages 355:16

discouraging

140:15

discovered 365:9

discretion 45:2

54:7

discuss 13:2 56:4

59:18 76:7 96:9

110:2 114:1

146:10 170:6

208:2 314:17

381:7

discussed 14:2 39:2

43:3 63:1 93:1

96:11 323:14

discusses 59:16

62:10

discussing 65:4

97:14 291:21

discussion 3:18

13:17 14:4,10,11

14:22 15:17 26:21

28:2 41:11 43:2

48:9 51:6 77:16

98:17 107:12

117:10 155:8

170:7 199:3 261:8

354:21

discussions 41:16

60:7 201:19

disinclined 273:2

dismiss 40:21

dismissed 183:16

381:8,8

disposal 224:20

disruption 370:12

disservice 307:11

dissuade 296:7

distinction 32:15

56:21
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 392

distinguish 309:7

distinguishing

309:9

distracted 84:5

distribute 230:5

distributing 67:14

67:19

distribution 65:19

67:6,11,15 102:11

287:12,16 288:11

288:15 289:1

364:14

distributor 46:12

48:12 49:14,15

51:20 57:6,11,12

64:9,10,12,14,16

65:8,17 66:1

104:2 144:6,7

153:1 154:17

159:19,19 228:3

230:6 239:17

243:15,16,22

244:4 247:22

248:1 257:9 286:3

286:6 288:9 364:5

374:17

distributors 24:9

45:1,12,20,21

46:4,5,5 49:16

50:1,19 51:2,20

52:17 53:7,10,15

64:7 103:15,17,19

188:14 232:5

258:19 284:9

291:15

District 85:21

87:13

distrust 253:11

division 34:9

dock 249:2

document 6:18

9:12 60:15 77:16

179:4 209:14

211:13 212:8

251:1 346:9

documents 16:20

81:10 85:1 142:22

207:19 212:6

218:3 231:3

DOE 7:3,17 13:20

13:22 14:5 15:20

16:3 24:12 44:21

45:14 50:13 52:16

60:10 63:6 81:15

84:13 87:13 88:12

89:14,18 90:18

93:4 101:9 109:21

112:9 119:11,18

148:2 159:17

170:2 182:5

237:19 279:9,17

289:20 290:14

292:8 293:1 295:8

297:17 300:2

302:18 304:10,11

305:14 314:9

321:11,12,17

322:8,11,19 323:2

325:9 326:14

327:7 329:12

332:6 338:16

340:6 345:22

347:10 374:1

DOE's 10:3 62:8

73:18 79:19 90:15

110:18 228:20

298:12

dog 330:16

doing 6:11 17:15

36:14 42:16 53:8

65:19 67:20 68:22

78:17 89:20

123:18,20 124:14

129:17 131:18

134:6 141:16

142:14 151:11

182:3 185:16

193:12,16,22

194:5,22 199:8

205:1 214:1,4,8

214:10,18 229:11

251:12 252:3,6

265:16 267:17

268:4 274:15

275:2 278:1 283:6

290:17 292:2

305:4 329:18

331:2 359:2,4

364:16 370:21

dollar 135:15

dollars 30:5 261:16

292:3

domestically 63:9

Don 2:21 54:13

65:6 232:1 239:11

239:12,13,14

271:21 282:14

298:11,18

doohickey 101:21

door 23:8 118:17

242:7 261:1

doorbell 194:22

DORIA 1:13 27:3,5

74:6,10 75:10,16

76:12 105:13

257:4,21 280:1,11

281:11,14 380:8

dot 322:18

double 254:14

doubt 130:21 207:1

264:18,19 274:20

376:10

Doug 1:21 3:12

82:20 97:10 114:4

122:1 123:2

153:11 154:8

155:7 169:7

188:20 219:10

256:8 277:5

279:16 302:7

311:6 321:22

323:7 326:10

332:15 370:7

downer 141:10

downturn 241:16

241:18

draft 120:19

121:15

drafting 101:1

drag 215:5

drags 226:14

dramatic 303:20

draw 311:6

drawback 124:4

drawing 194:1

draws 78:16

drier 166:10

drill 131:9

drive 129:18

131:18 135:10

171:3 195:15

294:2 353:3

358:19

drive-by 274:3

driven 151:15

283:5

drives 129:21

369:20

driveway 194:20

270:21

driving 178:8

dropped 270:20

drug 280:13

drugs 280:15

drugstore 273:11

Drummary's

349:17

dry 117:1 118:18

119:10 128:22

151:1,5 152:8

156:9 158:2

159:18 189:7

270:4 310:18

311:7,9,15

dry-charge 115:21

130:2,9 136:5,16

140:12 186:8,12

186:21 187:12

dry-charged 116:8

dry-ship 124:14

dry-shipped 122:2

dual 366:8 367:5,6

duct 137:17 294:1

ductwork 293:12

293:13

dueling 366:1

E

earlier 6:5 18:8

43:6 63:2 94:3

98:9 151:14

194:17 198:2

225:14 255:14

282:15 323:14

330:11

early 134:15 159:7

198:2

ears 370:7

Earthjustice 1:12

easier 77:12 173:8

198:17 364:19

378:16

easiest 129:19

easily 192:21

278:14 365:6

easing 361:13

easy 132:20 174:1

198:5 282:10

284:12 297:1,22

358:8,12 373:22

eBay 259:13,17

EBCA 296:21

297:16 299:1,3

ECM 178:13

181:11 307:14,17

308:14 310:3

314:12

ECM-equipped

174:19 175:14

176:5,12

economical 183:1

282:8

economically

209:20

economics 225:22

economy 2:1

297:15

edit 69:2

edits 303:11

educate 201:18

educated 373:18

education 42:14

educational 42:18

192:11

EER 8:16,17 9:3

17:21 18:2,3
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 393

EERE 292:10

effect 9:15,19 10:7

18:13 27:19 76:19

121:6,8,9 132:5

145:1 180:12

303:20

effective 10:1 16:5

16:12 48:6 98:15

98:22 99:17,22

100:10 112:13,13

112:15 113:2

130:6 139:8

143:21 164:10

effectively 113:22

281:17 282:9

effectiveness 43:10

43:18

efficiencies 37:12

efficiency 6:19

17:18 18:15 26:14

29:19 37:20 38:4

39:3,8 62:8 69:5

72:16 116:2

117:13 119:12

121:8 127:10

129:21 135:12

138:8,16,19

139:15 145:1

159:13 168:11

183:5 187:14

189:8,22 197:18

198:19 200:21

201:3 263:4

292:12 308:19

344:18 367:1

369:21 373:19

377:20

efficient 137:6

171:14 172:4

212:13 263:5

333:7 347:13,15

347:16 348:5

349:2,9 350:4,15

356:11 357:9,20

360:22 374:5

efficient/most

333:7

efficiently 213:18

effort 42:18 370:19

efforts 44:4 370:15

egg 57:9

eight 274:1

EISA 9:22 105:17

Eisner 1:9,12 4:3

4:12,20 5:10 21:1

70:19 71:17 72:7

72:13 73:1 109:10

113:11,18 148:9

179:4 190:21

192:18 204:13

210:7 251:21

260:6 277:20

296:18 301:4,8,13

301:18 303:4

314:21 318:12,14

318:17 321:16

334:1,4 349:15,22

352:6 358:21

368:7,12,15

369:16 374:7,14

380:15 381:6

either 21:14 31:3

55:12 68:9 69:13

72:4 113:3 136:20

184:1 200:6 221:7

222:13 299:16

324:15 328:3

355:15,18

elaborate 161:22

170:16

elaborating 188:8

electric 1:14 2:13

29:9 30:12 89:9

electricity 289:3

290:16

electronic 204:16

242:14,14

electronically

285:19

Electronics 242:13

element 294:11

elements 294:19

eligible 30:16

Elizabeth 1:19

31:19 43:8,16

44:9 49:9,12 52:4

76:7,8 86:14

281:10 331:3

371:2,7

Elizabeth's 243:2

257:6

Ellis 1:14 29:8,9

31:1,3,11,15 34:4

36:22 37:4,14,16

258:10 290:7

292:17,18,22

embarking 141:11

embrace 27:11

330:21

emergency 235:22

240:2

emissions 374:2

emotion 286:16

en 379:8

enabled 180:10

enact 371:9

enacted 9:12

encourage 68:5

203:4 295:18

373:17

encrypt 111:13

ended 60:9 285:13

327:12

ends 284:22

energy 1:1,17,21

2:9,10,12,15,20

6:18,19 7:2 10:15

17:3 25:1,10

26:13 28:3,10,10

29:19 31:17 37:20

38:3 42:13 44:1,6

60:4 62:8 78:14

88:3 90:9 94:18

102:14 110:9

124:11 131:19,20

134:2 138:18

157:19 162:9

164:11 172:11

178:11 184:2

201:8 211:21

219:22 221:16

224:8 252:7,10,13

292:10,12 296:22

297:5 298:8 345:4

357:5,7 365:12

370:1 377:3

Energy's 290:20

Energy-Efficient

2:1

EnergyGuide

354:6

enforce 52:16 53:9

56:14,22 66:16

85:21 87:15

107:22 109:3,12

122:19 148:2,5

185:17 240:5

278:19 290:8

330:18

enforceable 254:22

enforced 27:13

254:4 370:21

enforcement 1:3

16:5,13 29:2 36:2

44:22 45:2 48:6

49:4,22 52:21

53:12 54:6,7

62:11 63:1,6,11

67:17 68:8 77:17

80:13,18 84:21

86:8 93:11 96:12

98:15,22 99:18,22

100:10 107:21

108:20 112:19

115:13 121:19

122:3,4 127:21

129:16,20 138:22

141:18 142:3

143:15,22 145:13

145:18,21 146:15

146:22 147:5,21

148:8 149:11

150:6,9,19 151:18

152:20 153:2,5

181:13 182:17

254:1 277:12

280:3,7,13 281:2

292:1,15 336:16

349:16 355:2

358:2 361:13,16

371:10 372:10

enforces 29:1

enforcing 80:20

145:14 150:20

151:19 329:22

330:5 336:17

engage 91:22 93:10

162:1,3

engaging 325:4

engendered 14:7

engine 55:5

engineering 203:6

245:12

enhancement

42:11

ensuring 374:4

enter 251:7

entered 52:22

53:19 207:20

Enterprises 2:4

entire 112:10 113:1

172:11 378:12

entirely 366:4

entities 64:16

entitle 111:5

entitled 7:3 291:6

entitles 109:8

entity 12:10 63:13

104:3 109:5

enumerated 8:4

environment 348:8

environmental

134:3 369:21

373:22

EPA 118:15 119:8

126:7 127:6 128:8

128:13 140:5

157:12 297:15

EPCA 13:4 62:22

63:2,20

equal 8:19 12:19

134:20 168:13

equally 272:18

equipment 8:4 21:3

34:1 35:21 36:2,8
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 394

36:15 55:2 57:11

59:19 62:15 66:15

66:20 68:2 72:14

72:17 101:16

109:11 135:13

159:9 182:4

195:15 201:4

216:8 218:13,20

231:10 232:17

237:22 238:19

240:1 255:9

259:13 260:9

270:11 272:16

288:19 291:3

294:1 364:6

373:19

equipped 314:12

equivalent 126:20

Eric 2:20 106:22

191:1

Erica 300:12

eroded 195:13

escape 197:15

especially 141:20

213:10 214:22

215:10 224:12,17

238:21

espionage 286:8

essentially 8:22

81:19 82:2 97:2

105:3 159:6 223:5

264:22 358:20

359:13,14

establish 106:9

established 336:1

342:11

establishes 332:12

esteemed 54:16

estimates 78:14

estimation 69:8

evacuate 133:10

evaporating 126:19

evaporator 22:16

23:2,5,15 123:21

124:1,6 134:14

166:8,14,16,20

167:1,4,18 168:5

168:9 181:11

305:6,9 315:12

317:5 365:20

evening 6:7 272:3,9

event 67:16,19

events 67:4

eventually 365:14

everybody 4:3,5,13

32:14 138:2

177:16 192:20

196:5 198:8 200:5

200:6 233:6

275:17 294:18

381:7

everybody's 231:19

234:1 257:15

363:21

everyday 96:1

everyone's 26:19

54:20

evidence 159:20

338:14

evident 258:11

evolve 50:9 371:15

evolved 365:14

evolving 76:20

242:11

exact 65:12 349:19

exactly 11:9 14:22

22:11 75:8 180:1

241:9 262:19

323:12 341:6

345:13 357:3

377:16

example 70:2

164:13 178:11

179:7 181:9 247:9

281:17 348:17

350:18 377:13

examples 100:15

exception 111:21

125:10 275:8,10

275:15

excess 266:3

exchanger 23:9

excluded 46:6

excuse 69:3 93:8

268:12

exercise 45:1

exhausted 368:7

exist 6:21

existing 189:5,9

304:19 305:5

313:2

exists 163:4 313:22

expand 34:10

191:7

expansion 123:22

125:12,22 305:7,7

expect 61:11

expectation 22:14

expense 277:10

282:15

expensive 158:12

212:22 252:4

293:14

experience 90:16

124:16 154:11

155:4 211:2

235:13 259:5

275:21

experts 380:5

explain 21:15

122:5 179:5

275:18 286:16

324:22

explained 51:21

98:9 378:15

explaining 12:22

45:10 176:16

explanation 46:10

365:13

explicit 35:18

exposed 285:19

express 307:9

expression 137:11

extended 34:8

extends 83:8

extension 305:1

extent 78:8 80:6

229:4 257:16

265:22 355:21

363:1,12 366:2

extra 129:21,22

210:2 315:9

extraordinarily

140:4

extreme 304:21

extremely 209:18

eye 89:20

eyes 63:10 110:18

F

face 96:7

faced 57:13

facilitate 42:14

facilitator 1:9,12

facilities 118:20

facing 199:11

241:3

fact 15:6 28:2

29:13 34:7 40:15

53:13 55:2 89:2

131:10 169:15

175:17 201:5

249:20 292:13

304:18 311:17

329:13 365:16

378:22 379:5,7

facto 128:17 218:1

factor 55:9 78:18

257:18

factors 96:11

210:12 379:14

factory 244:1

facts 203:8

fail 94:21 160:8

failed 233:12

failing 97:6

fails 92:12 93:9

failure 86:18 97:1,8

97:13 101:15

102:5,8

failures 101:13

fair 124:18 127:2,3

150:12,12 170:7

199:21 245:17

251:3

fairly 35:13 37:22

112:19 216:12

364:6

fall 333:21 352:18

familiar 18:10

26:20 33:7 58:18

66:22 78:20

families 365:10

family 200:4

fan 127:10,11

135:16,17 141:8

205:8 365:12,18

fans 365:8,17

far 25:20 90:21

96:12 99:9 102:6

110:16 122:18

145:5 162:18

205:11 207:15

211:20 213:21

239:21 280:7,21

292:2 325:4

368:15

far-reaching 40:16

faster 198:16

fastest 200:9

father 229:17

fault 19:1 92:13

favorite 137:11

227:8 228:8

FCC 254:16

feature 101:18

309:10

February 159:3,4,4

federal 16:22 42:3

94:19 109:3

173:20 302:15

304:7,13 308:19

309:3

fee 274:12,13

feed 71:10 364:15

feeders 195:19,20

195:21 203:20

feel 61:10 115:17

121:19 125:9

161:10,11,16

162:8 184:12

185:14 210:20

211:6 227:14

253:2 339:3

372:22 375:5,14

feeling 379:19
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 395

fence 209:3,7

FERNSTROM

1:14 4:17 11:20

12:2 13:18 14:14

15:19 26:11 34:18

36:18 41:20 43:15

43:22 44:11 47:21

48:10,20 49:3

88:2 90:4,8 91:8

91:16 92:2,15

152:17 154:2,5

217:12,19 218:10

269:21 271:1,9

272:12 275:20

276:10 306:17,19

307:7 312:21

313:10,15 314:3

376:9 378:15

FERNSTRROM

376:20

fewer 235:17,17

field 27:12 56:5,7

72:1 102:2 119:7

124:15 154:13

174:20,21 175:14

242:12,16 248:1

277:4 304:14

349:18

fields 71:21

fifth 234:2

figure 89:3 95:3

99:7 100:9 107:15

188:15 193:21

221:12 228:20

229:14 253:9

254:17 277:17

279:6 379:19

figured 267:21

365:1

figuring 312:16

file 97:6 209:1

218:4

files 263:11,22

265:1

filing 206:17

263:12,15,21

fill 5:5,9 68:17

217:13 218:15,18

237:5 252:17

253:6

filled 4:19

filling 218:11

219:13 260:1

final 7:6,6 107:21

150:4 160:15

finalize 121:4,11

finalized 120:22

financing 197:22

find 26:7 36:12

70:20 89:4 93:7

94:2 143:2 149:7

183:9 206:22

209:21 212:17

218:5 228:1 271:6

271:11,12,18

278:1,6,7 285:14

285:14 291:11

350:17 358:19

finding 240:15

257:10,17

finds 155:4 221:5

fine 149:20 163:16

202:22 203:14

293:1 352:8

357:19 359:12

360:6

fines 45:17 50:1

51:19 90:10

fingernail 292:11

fingers 252:21

finish 345:20

fire 240:18

firm 202:8

first 4:4 9:12 45:11

64:11 74:20 97:1

116:3 122:17

148:6 195:2

206:22 216:15

224:21 237:16

256:3 263:11

280:8,16,22

324:18 326:4

351:10

fit 67:3 228:16

258:15 344:22

375:22

fits 228:17 257:11

370:11

five 65:15 170:18

215:20 239:8

267:17,19 301:14

five-year 267:20

fix 81:4 95:11

135:5 200:15,16

221:10 222:8,14

229:18,19

fixable 195:12

fixed 167:11

197:18 204:12

293:13 295:4

342:1

fixing 189:9 197:3

293:13

flexibility 234:7

floating 35:19

floor 257:3

Florida 144:7

262:1 279:7

284:16

flow 166:9 167:8,10

168:7 169:2

fluid 40:1

flush 304:22

flushing 125:11

305:6

fly-by-night 294:10

fly-by-nights 283:2

focus 118:1

focusing 118:9

FOIA 111:9,17,20

fold 326:1

folder 263:11 264:8

folders 264:15

folks 5:14,18 9:13

12:17,21 14:8

15:10 16:8,15

17:2 18:6,10

19:12 21:5 28:20

43:6 46:11 51:21

52:1 57:20 63:16

63:19 64:1,7 69:4

69:12 81:17 82:7

93:20 94:21 96:16

99:22 100:17

102:4 105:9 107:8

111:5 176:18

191:8 196:7 207:7

211:21 235:12

259:2,6 270:5

297:6 375:3,14,18

follow 54:8 85:22

89:8 93:2 163:3

207:6 274:22

297:12 340:1

follow-up 90:5

210:10 262:9

follow-ups 219:22

following 12:2 87:7

146:1 260:9

312:22 328:3

329:15

foot 293:1

footprint 198:14

force 240:21

forced 108:13

184:19

forces 151:16

forcing 108:17

146:5

forecast 151:8

foreclose 56:1

foregoing 301:15

forensic 149:6

forestall 14:10

forever 50:4,6

207:3

forget 5:13 38:20

54:11 359:21

form 4:19 76:21

354:2

former 58:16

forms 5:4

forth 225:19

forthcoming 60:15

fortunate 105:14

forum 6:22 91:1

forward 6:2 13:13

84:15 85:7 114:8

153:12,17 188:5

275:19 278:15

284:13 288:18

327:4

found 94:10 259:13

261:15

four 8:12 18:4

76:19 170:18,18

200:3 224:16

267:3 289:10

fourth 215:7 233:4

234:2 235:6 330:7

frame 41:16 43:1

186:20 204:11

213:10

framework 142:22

146:1,10 148:19

188:2 251:1

frankly 223:22

fraud 371:22

free 133:3

freezer 15:2,5

frequency 253:22

friends 262:12

front 52:8 120:18

188:4 192:20

frustrated 151:21

FT 378:22

FTC 10:11,16 17:4

17:5 25:6 27:15

29:2,4 33:11 73:6

162:9 163:20,22

178:9 181:8

278:22 279:9,17

295:8,8 299:19,21

300:1 313:5,11,19

315:22 317:16

320:7,11 321:2,10

321:18 322:1,2,10

323:16 324:10

325:16 326:14

328:7 329:20

331:11 332:5

336:5,10 339:10

345:21 347:9

348:12,18 349:19

378:8 379:3,17
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 396

380:3,12

FTC's 17:12

326:17 338:7

fuel 297:15

full 41:11 45:15

181:3 206:18

341:2 371:4 379:1

function 312:1

functioning 90:1

fundamental

115:11,11

fundamentally

37:5 76:16 380:11

funded 35:21

funneling 289:18

furnace 43:7 44:13

44:17 175:15

202:22 247:10,11

314:13 365:8

furnace-related 7:9

furnaces 171:2

202:20 289:16

371:18

further 11:22 76:2

113:10 161:22

179:20 258:5

272:14

future 27:19 50:21

243:20 295:22

314:2 327:3,5

348:15 366:20

372:8

FYI 73:8

G

gain 189:21

gained 189:22

gains 314:4

galvanized 23:7

game 46:21 104:9

gang-banger

273:22

gaps 366:13 372:7

garage 260:22

261:1,19

Garanimals 24:6

garbage 141:9

garden 245:22

Gary 1:13,14 11:21

15:20 26:9,12

27:21,22 31:18

34:19 36:19 38:10

41:19,20 43:13

44:5 47:20,22

88:2 90:5 91:17

93:2 98:9 129:4

144:3 150:13

152:17 154:4

167:22 186:6,8

217:12 269:22

271:15 272:13

275:21 278:21

279:16 294:18

306:20 312:22

313:8,21 323:11

330:11 335:17

353:11,11 359:4

377:2 378:14

Gary's 294:13

380:10

gas 7:9 140:13

156:19 289:3

gate 212:14

GE 247:10

gee 222:1

geeky 123:12

general 1:21 3:18

44:2 84:20 152:19

280:12 373:9

generally 294:18

325:8

generating 309:9

generation 215:7

generically 230:12

generously 371:8

gentleman 49:11

geographic 215:18

geographical 34:5

geography 35:1

George 250:12

germane 91:13

getting 25:21 41:18

114:10 126:18

140:11 143:10

184:3 202:14

224:5,7 235:19

241:4,5 252:5

278:7 294:7 311:8

323:2 351:4

372:20 373:10,20

giant 258:13

GIBBONS 1:15

31:8,12 235:8

236:15 237:12

give 15:15 25:14

29:22 42:1 45:7

46:10 50:14 55:5

58:6 78:13 82:2

84:22 95:22 96:1

97:4 102:6 111:5

138:20 139:12,14

155:21 162:14

166:12 177:4,6,18

178:1 192:11

201:9 202:2 208:4

212:3 216:10,11

221:17 243:8,9

244:4 248:21

249:10,11,21

257:9 281:8

320:11 335:21

358:7 369:5

374:22

given 9:13 10:13

90:9 98:14 189:1

257:12 343:13

367:20,21 379:1

gives 10:15 70:11

101:18 235:6

314:13 348:22

giving 87:11

298:13 353:22

373:1

glad 203:1 242:7

Glen 150:13

Glenn 1:16 33:11

33:15,17 79:1,13

144:15,17 184:5

204:6 214:14

243:13 264:16

265:9,19

Glenn's 36:15

go 4:3,6,16 5:3 6:2

6:6,16 7:13 10:7

11:21 15:15 17:1

17:7 18:6,9 24:11

24:12 26:2,7

29:11 31:3 40:3

46:22 47:7 49:13

53:6 56:6,8,16

61:8 62:19 64:18

69:2 70:20 71:1,1

71:6 80:4 81:14

84:4,5,12,14

85:20 86:11 89:15

91:4,5,17 93:5,13

94:16 95:6,7,9,15

99:9 100:6 102:9

103:13 107:5,10

109:18 111:11

113:9,13 114:10

114:11 121:11

125:6,6,7 130:18

134:11 138:16

152:3,18 158:15

160:13 163:22

164:2,12 176:17

185:10 192:5

193:20 194:13

196:14 198:22

200:2,17 201:12

201:12,22 204:1

205:7 206:9 212:2

214:5 217:8,20

220:2,14,15

222:20 228:8,14

230:6,16 231:5

234:3,10 238:11

243:22 245:14,15

245:17 246:7,14

246:15,16 247:1

251:15,17 263:16

263:17 265:13

266:15 270:19

271:17 272:18

273:11 274:3

277:2 278:17

281:13 285:9

292:7 297:9

299:17 309:19

311:8 316:17

320:11 325:21

326:18 327:9

346:15 347:6

348:11,17 349:17

349:19 351:21

352:13 355:7

356:1 360:2

368:21 371:22

380:4

goal 112:15 143:16

280:14 322:10

goals 145:9 281:2

323:4

God 229:9 245:11

goes 20:12 25:20

69:19 96:12 127:7

127:10 134:13

142:10 145:3,4

150:22 151:1

154:15 221:5

229:13 231:8

239:21 244:8,11

255:12 264:7,8

266:13 284:11

286:5 292:14,14

298:16,19 339:11

344:5 362:4,5

going 6:12 12:14

15:17 16:9,10,11

21:11,15,20 24:8

26:3,16 28:15

34:2,2 39:5 41:1,2

43:2 47:1 48:5,13

48:21 53:2,6,11

55:12,20,21 56:22

56:22 57:17 60:3

60:15,17 61:10

62:12 64:2,3,5,18

66:7,7 74:7 86:4

86:15 89:3,4,7

90:5,13,20,22

93:11 101:7,20

103:11 106:2

124:7 129:18

130:3 131:5
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 397

132:11 133:3

139:11,11,17

141:21 146:20,21

148:2 149:3,7

151:6 153:13,20

153:22 156:13

158:15 159:16

160:8 162:15

165:9,18 169:1,21

172:2 174:5

175:16 176:10

177:15 181:21

182:18 184:19

186:9 188:3

192:10,19 195:14

196:16 197:11

199:1,4 200:16,16

201:14 202:6

203:14,19,20,22

204:1 208:8 210:1

211:5,9,13 212:7

213:5 214:5

215:20 217:4,7

220:22 221:10,11

222:8 223:8,10

225:18 228:2,5,18

228:19 229:17,20

229:22 232:11

233:18 238:7

242:20 243:6

244:17,19,21,22

245:19 246:4

247:21 248:11,13

248:14,16 250:9

250:10 258:17,17

260:21 261:13,14

261:21 262:1,17

265:1,2,14 270:4

272:21 274:3,5,14

274:19,21,22

275:7,11,13

277:14 278:15,18

281:19 282:21

283:20 284:3,10

287:15 288:18

289:6 290:4

294:14 301:5,13

301:22,22 303:2,4

303:21 308:13,14

312:2 313:7 314:2

316:14 317:20

318:14 320:18

326:21,22 327:4,8

330:5 332:4

334:11 335:11

342:8,19 344:20

344:21 345:19

347:2,3,6 348:16

350:9,20 353:13

354:1 355:6,10,14

355:16,20 356:2

358:7,8 364:15

365:3 366:21

370:9 372:21

373:7 376:14

378:9 379:2,16,17

380:3,19

good 5:10 7:22

28:19 41:17 46:13

78:9 80:9,17

105:8 109:6,19

125:3,5 129:13

137:19 155:17

160:12 162:6

167:14 176:16,19

177:18 190:20,21

194:14 198:4,9

199:7,22 218:19

225:1 226:18

229:12 241:13

262:12 265:6

267:8 272:3 275:9

276:12 278:13

280:12 281:22

286:4 290:14,19

291:10 296:16,16

298:21 299:5

301:6 306:22

324:6 358:9,12

Goodman 1:13

2:19 28:1 144:4

186:8 247:11

278:21 323:12

377:2

gotten 238:19

240:13 261:8

373:13

government 89:16

91:5,19,20 109:3

government-cont...

93:1

grace 46:17 49:17

grandfather

200:14 212:22

Grannis 1:16

granted 134:5

grasp 155:17

160:12

great 191:2 194:11

234:22 245:7

275:16 318:17

376:22

greater 26:15 78:7

290:14,19 291:10

343:10,20 374:3

greatest 136:17

grid 180:10,10

ground 203:16

group 1:3,8 39:10

40:12 43:11,20

44:10,20 47:19

48:5 49:20 51:6

52:21 59:13

107:11 114:5

115:7 141:15

169:22 170:1,3,3

177:13 190:4

265:15 269:15

320:5 325:8

369:11

group's 320:7

groups 33:4 39:21

293:18

grow 226:21

grows 263:22

guarantee 255:5

296:1

guess 28:17 39:9

75:11 110:19

114:5 125:8 144:4

145:12 148:14

156:8 165:17

193:5 195:17

213:20 219:9

225:15 264:15

268:16 303:16

305:14 323:12

326:11 328:22,22

330:11 336:8

355:3 364:22

367:13 372:13

374:10

guidance 9:12,14

10:5 45:8 60:14

61:11 119:12

120:12 121:5

128:8 143:10

303:9 311:7 312:8

312:13

guide 10:15 17:3

25:10 28:3,10

31:17 60:5 101:9

157:19 162:9

164:11 172:11

178:11 224:8

252:7,11,13 298:8

302:19 331:6

339:10 377:3

guide's 297:5

guideline 47:15

357:5,7

guides 182:8 297:1

guiding 6:18

guise 157:19

gun 273:17 281:4

guy 133:2 165:11

186:17 189:13

194:8 205:4 214:4

214:5 229:13

240:17 244:16

246:1 250:10,11

263:8,9,13,20

265:5 269:4 284:3

284:16 287:18

289:9

guys 6:3 20:19 56:7

62:3 79:10 100:18

113:8,12 136:13

141:17 156:15

188:8 192:13

215:21 222:21,22

240:12 241:19

242:3,4 245:17

265:16 266:15

271:19,20 272:6

279:9 283:2

285:20 288:4

302:4 312:16

314:21 376:1

H

half 124:14

halfway 269:17

Hampton 295:14

295:21 324:20

hand 5:2 24:17

42:4 49:9 52:10

133:3 155:21

170:14 183:17

194:1 201:21

225:9 243:3

250:15 273:5

276:22 281:4

299:7

hand-in-hand

30:14

handed 16:21

handle 106:3

handler 170:22

175:15 326:20

handouts 5:20

hands 49:20 59:3

150:14 178:3,4

194:1 251:15,17

251:19 280:15

hang 279:2 281:16

294:14,20

happen 93:4

120:17 133:4

154:13 199:2

233:15 234:4

262:2 272:4 280:8

281:7 327:11

happened 134:12

136:2 140:6 149:7

229:14 267:7
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 398

282:17 324:5

happening 46:20

372:11

happens 136:15

153:5 186:11

189:15 196:20

226:15 227:16,19

247:18 259:14

260:4 264:21

266:5,12 267:2

284:5 286:9,10

323:15 332:13

375:19

happy 203:15

harbor 297:8

hard 25:5 66:9

227:5 237:5 238:8

274:18 281:19,20

294:15

harder 240:10

282:8

Hardi 2:18 12:22

110:5 248:10

285:16 326:11

hardware 198:18

205:11 245:4

Harihanan 237:18

237:19

HARIHARAN

2:15

harm 348:4

Harris 1:16,16

Harvey 2:1 22:20

22:21 23:19 35:15

35:17 36:18 38:7

42:1 77:22 78:1

79:14 91:9 123:3

123:4 125:10

159:1,5 165:19,21

167:22 180:4

181:15 184:22

190:15 269:11

286:15 292:5

295:5 297:13,14

305:2,13 371:3,8

371:16 372:19

379:12

Harvey's 20:13

128:18 299:10

hassle 130:4

hat 46:12

hatch 57:9

hate 249:5

hatted 46:13

hazard 137:5

268:16

he'll 296:8

head 36:16 76:12

85:14 129:3

185:18,20 198:11

234:8 337:1 342:6

heads 155:19

335:18

health 292:9

hear 4:11 6:3 10:22

16:8 21:7 26:4

28:19 51:7 57:20

67:1 77:2 130:17

132:4 152:6

169:19 170:5

192:21 237:16

265:15 271:4

277:2,19 306:12

325:6,7 369:4,10

369:13 379:12,12

heard 12:20 13:21

125:10,18 136:16

136:17 150:5

186:14 232:2

257:14 302:6

312:11 318:15

334:19 335:16

360:20

hearing 41:11

48:17 77:6 128:4

131:22 141:19

146:19 147:10,19

148:9 169:9,12

219:19 247:19

277:6 284:20

298:2 302:6 313:8

366:9

heat 23:8 117:12,14

117:18,19 166:6

197:5 234:11

235:16 289:15,22

351:11

heater 180:11,20

heaters 180:6,11

182:12

heating 2:2 236:14

365:19

heavily 216:4,5

229:1

heavy 239:5

held 13:11 48:14

49:1 165:9

Helft 87:22

hell 124:5

help 20:19 97:22

138:19 139:9,15

247:7 298:6

326:12

helpful 28:18 33:3

33:8 41:15 43:1

79:12 91:7 104:19

115:17 176:20

177:22 209:2

295:2 301:10

302:3 366:12

369:9 375:2,6

helping 277:22

helps 25:7 108:2

140:2 263:14

355:2

hey 9:19 19:13 22:3

27:7 53:6 75:6

81:4 82:1 87:6

93:12 94:9,17

95:5 102:16 112:1

149:21 178:20

185:14 205:4

254:18 259:16,21

300:14,14

hhjtesting 102:9

high 35:3,13

124:12 140:16

159:13 166:15

173:21 211:8

242:20 263:4

267:9 268:6

292:10 319:4,13

319:17 351:11

370:3

high-priced 194:12

higher 37:10

135:12 139:15

171:14 201:3,4

235:20 360:18

377:20

highest 200:21

332:16 333:13

334:7,16,21 335:5

336:1,19 337:11

339:3,7,12 342:14

344:2,3 346:7

348:10,15 350:2

350:10,14 351:19

359:22 360:16

377:6,14

highly 241:14

hill 28:17

hinges 189:4

hip 293:22

hire 264:1

hiring 34:11

historical 74:12

133:4 205:21

hit 213:5 316:21

363:17

hoc 303:10

HOI 73:9

hold 67:10 235:12

235:13

holding 118:22

290:22

holds 280:19

hole 135:19

home 2:21 25:7

79:16 214:5,11

233:16 246:14

247:9 263:5

Homebuilder

49:10

Homebuilders

54:14

homeowner 25:12

25:13,15 134:8

135:1 136:22

142:10 154:16

182:17 209:6

212:4 254:14,17

285:1 291:2

323:15 346:2,10

355:6 369:12

374:5

Homeowner's

137:4

homeowners 28:15

29:13,22 30:15

131:15 263:2,2

358:14,16 373:18

379:6

homes 34:1 321:7

honest 277:1

honor 53:3

hope 114:11 295:11

373:15

hopefully 16:16,18

221:22 296:8

302:3

hoping 299:14

314:3

horizon 136:6

horse 55:6

horsepower 55:6

hot 197:10 233:5

234:1

hour 266:8,10

Hourahan 1:16

33:12,17,18 79:13

144:12,17 145:2

214:15 243:13,14

244:7 255:19

265:18,19 268:12

268:14 349:10

hours 217:1 240:4

301:9

house 189:10 194:3

202:1,13 205:1,2

205:3 207:16

208:10 213:2,3

220:2 224:9

233:20,21 244:17

244:19 249:21
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 399

261:10 265:2

houses 239:8 246:5

HRI 313:22 353:6

354:16

HSB's 378:4

huge 57:15 199:12

200:3 213:13

278:15,16 286:19

367:9

Huh 129:6

human 197:13,14

379:13

humidity 166:6

167:3,4,14

hump 227:1

hundred 23:18

34:6 56:18 266:9

hung 203:13

Hungerford 1:17

44:7 328:6

hurdles 114:6

Hurst 2:16 21:14

21:17,19,20 23:17

23:17 24:2 26:5

46:1,2 51:21

66:10,10 77:7,7

77:19 226:5,5

227:4 246:11,12

246:12 248:3,6,8

249:22 250:3,3,6

270:12,12 271:6

273:15,15 275:3

299:8,8,21 300:4

300:8,17,22 321:2

321:6 334:21

355:13,22 362:19

363:5,9 364:3

husband 215:3

Hustings 251:13

HVAC 34:9 193:3

241:6,10 255:22

hyphen 255:21

hypothetically

323:4

I

ICM 181:20 183:17

184:14

ICMs 184:9

idea 15:15 54:6

89:7 156:15 186:8

198:9 247:13

290:11 291:18

314:22 377:2,3

378:13 380:16

ideal 324:9

ideas 41:12,13 77:2

77:6

identified 48:4

identifying 49:7

218:13 372:7

idiosyncracies

278:17

ignorant 105:7

ignore 87:6

illegal 284:7

illegally 278:3

illustrated 231:20

Im 306:7

imagine 68:4

326:17

immediate 130:7

impact 107:13

129:16 168:10

367:3

impacting 143:16

impacts 57:22

259:3

impending 48:18

impetus 282:3

implications 39:20

40:16 122:2

141:17,20 142:1

implies 179:17

import 63:5 67:8,9

importance 63:14

330:14

important 9:4 10:6

10:14 11:12 17:12

17:22 20:17 22:22

26:21 38:10 44:15

45:13 46:8,13

57:7 62:22 63:12

63:14 64:9 67:18

70:13 82:11

102:15 103:22

108:2 121:20

122:6,13 128:2

131:11 141:15

143:11,20 148:18

188:18 207:7

210:15 229:3

234:13 250:4

280:2 281:5

330:15 370:13

importing 68:10

imports 63:7

impossible 241:22

281:20

improperly 101:17

improve 44:4

improvement 5:7

improving 77:2

inadequate 293:22

inadvertent 236:5

incentive 30:1,3

34:21 35:14,20

38:12 138:14,16

139:7 142:7,8

166:12 290:11

355:5

incentives 39:7

40:8 41:1 139:18

141:21 142:5,9,19

incentivize 30:15

291:1

incentivized 293:7

incentivizes 37:19

inch 350:20

incidental 218:16

include 20:14

71:18,19 110:21

191:8 297:21

315:13 317:6

includes 13:5 97:5

98:7 162:11

including 12:22

73:7 180:6 292:9

293:12

inclusive 276:21

inconsistent 300:16

300:18

incorporate 78:5

incorrectly 324:3

increase 38:5

197:17

increased 140:14

incumbent 24:9

incurring 274:15

indefinitely 310:15

Independence 7:2

independent

181:16 182:2,14

183:2

indexes 365:12

Indiana 193:4

236:17

indicated 96:21

indicates 313:4

indication 58:7

indicative 329:12

indifferent 166:5

indisputable 28:2

individual 31:4

272:21 302:14

304:6,11,15

individuals 270:6

272:15

indoor 19:7 35:11

70:9 73:22 178:13

208:13 339:5

341:10 347:6

350:9 359:22

indulge 6:10

industrial 62:15

193:9

industry 14:9 28:5

28:6 63:15 86:11

112:10 113:1

130:22 136:4,15

140:8 199:11,13

199:15 200:20

210:11 213:12

226:9 229:1 250:7

253:10,12 258:13

265:21 270:18

278:4 288:10

326:6 354:7,13

infinite 68:4

influence 373:15

inform 97:22

informally 366:2

information 5:15

22:14 25:21 26:7

29:15 32:9 33:5

40:22 41:2 43:1

68:17 70:14 71:14

72:4 73:9 76:14

79:5 81:15,17

83:20,21 84:1,8,9

84:22 85:10 91:22

96:2 97:4 106:18

107:7,9,20 111:2

111:4,11,15 112:1

112:5 147:6 150:6

150:7,9 177:18

180:20 181:6

182:7,18,19 183:6

184:1,7,8,10

206:7 211:7

218:11 223:6,20

239:16 244:18

248:12 249:10

251:11 252:10,19

252:22 258:5

273:9 284:14

285:4,6,9,19

286:2,13 295:6

298:5 324:7 329:7

349:1,5 353:22

354:18 372:20,22

373:6 375:1

informed 159:10

331:1

infractions 280:22

281:7

infrastructure

226:20 268:7

Ingersoll 1:13

inhibits 58:10

initially 40:17

76:12 160:19

injunctions 108:15

injunctive 108:8,12

injured 149:5

input 151:17
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 400

379:13

inside 23:8 31:18

333:6

insist 293:22

inspect 29:12 31:5

34:12

inspection 30:20

35:9 36:14 42:15

123:19

inspector 31:9

42:16

inspectors 36:16

install 34:12 47:7

47:13 58:3 165:11

172:16 187:19

207:14 228:6

255:10 259:18

260:1 270:6

272:16 283:21

284:11 302:9

304:1 306:8

353:18

installation 10:2,8

11:7,18 36:8

55:19 124:3

127:16,17 128:16

132:7 152:9

164:11 181:10

185:6 187:17

189:5,6 190:6

218:14 227:21

255:16,22 256:17

293:12 297:3

305:12 312:1

370:16

installations

193:13 294:22

installed 8:6 9:20

17:18 22:12 23:2

31:6 45:5,6 47:3

47:17 109:18

126:16 159:22

164:16,19 169:17

172:2 174:9,18

175:17,20 176:5

176:11 178:13,20

187:1 207:16

222:22 224:9

255:11 263:17

264:7 270:11,21

304:13,19 313:1

343:16 352:21

353:4,6 356:4

373:11

installer 12:6,12,19

13:8 14:6 15:4

55:13 58:4 143:12

192:19 220:7

225:17 306:14

installers 57:22

141:22 192:10

259:3 297:2 375:5

375:21

installing 12:7

128:9 131:16

132:4 219:14

278:2 305:5 306:5

306:7

installs 19:9

instance 39:18 40:9

40:20 69:1 97:19

105:5 278:21

281:9,15 350:16

366:4 371:20

instances 54:10

245:9,20

Institute 2:2

instructor 5:2

insulation 152:7

intelligent 58:3

intended 156:20

interaction 259:2

interactions 66:22

interest 36:13

37:11 137:21

201:2

interested 6:11

44:10 57:20 77:5

200:21 207:22

211:12 212:12

315:9 374:12

interesting 19:19

103:14 242:16

246:10

interests 40:5

interface 379:22

interject 283:10

internal 89:21

253:8,12

internally 96:11

International 2:16

internet 26:2 57:15

57:21 58:2 231:14

261:3 270:1,3,19

272:17 273:7

284:15

interplay 122:21

interpretation

99:14 116:1

298:12

interpreted 100:21

101:2,5

interpreting 127:1

359:14

interprets 321:10

intimate 30:10 37:7

intrigued 294:13

introduce 67:9

introduced 38:20

Introductory 3:11

invalidate 356:12

inventory 195:6

204:14,17,18

205:10 233:2

246:2

inventory's 232:22

invest 263:20

investigate 86:3

146:11 147:11

149:9,10,14

investigating 145:6

146:2

investigative

147:14

investor 36:12

Investor-Owned

1:14

invoice 207:1 218:5

invoices 207:2

invoke 111:20

involve 40:7

involved 10:12

38:9 58:5 106:15

109:9 233:16

IOU 37:13 293:6

IOUs 11:21 26:12

34:19 37:2 47:22

217:13 258:13

irate 374:4

irked 231:19

ISO 90:19 91:12

isolated 229:5

issue 7:5 41:19

57:15 71:7 81:3

81:10,11,12 84:18

84:21 115:8,8,11

118:1 120:6,8,10

122:3 123:10

128:5,14 130:3

131:9,11 139:21

144:2 147:18

148:18 151:5

153:8 155:13

160:12,16,19,22

176:16 177:21

181:15 185:22

186:15 206:5

221:6 222:1 254:5

262:16 303:8

313:22 319:17

324:22 325:16

327:20 343:3

368:13

issued 10:11 46:15

84:15 87:15,16

120:16

issues 36:1 57:14

87:5 110:2 133:9

185:12,13 188:9

204:10 287:14

338:4 340:17

issuing 128:8

it'd 66:11 242:1

341:11

it'll 157:20 308:4

item 14:9 76:6

148:11

items 70:1 72:5

J

J 78:6 79:15

January 10:7 17:11

47:5,11,13 50:12

115:15 117:3

120:16 121:6

156:12 159:3

252:13 346:20

Jeff 35:16

jeopardy 267:18,19

Jeremiah 18:22

71:2

job 42:16 139:12

176:16 195:9

198:17 199:7

206:7,22 207:20

218:21 220:3,16

247:8 249:14,17

255:2,5 258:2,3,3

258:7 262:22,22

263:18 266:20

267:22 268:2

278:2 281:22

282:17,19

jobs 240:16 242:4

258:1 275:8

282:18

Joe 137:4

Johanna 2:15

237:14,16,19

John 1:15 2:16

21:17,19 23:16,17

31:8 45:13 46:1,1

46:8,14 51:21,22

66:9,10 77:6,7

110:3,4 131:7

226:5 231:19,22

235:6 246:11,12

248:9 250:3

270:12 273:15

299:6,8 300:1

374:22 376:14,15

John's 25:22

Johnson 1:22

115:19

Johnstone 1:20

116:5 170:9
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 401

184:22 201:22

Johnstone's 208:10

Jon 369:7

JONATHAN 2:18

Jones 231:16

Jordan 1:13 27:3,4

74:5 80:3 105:12

257:1 279:21

281:12 380:8

Jordan's 287:4

Josh 27:2,2

judgment 93:17

jugs 119:4

July 47:2,8 227:16

jump 10:16 62:3

158:21 161:11

jurisdiction 58:12

236:12

jurisdictions 237:4

K

Kansas 283:19

289:9

Karen 1:19 19:17

19:18 24:16 59:2

59:8 66:4 73:11

73:13 108:21

118:12 122:17

127:4 129:3 131:6

150:13,17 162:22

164:6 165:1 169:7

169:12 176:15

185:3 262:8,11

264:13 288:4

307:12 314:7,20

318:5 335:16

339:8 352:10

353:10 359:3

361:14

Karen's 180:7

298:19 339:1

356:8 365:6 366:9

378:6 380:11,15

Karim 2:8 10:22

11:2,8,19 22:5,9

32:4 33:3 73:11

131:6 157:11

295:6 313:21

323:10

keep 15:17 17:15

27:20 28:11 62:5

68:20 83:3 86:10

89:19 103:1,4

111:12 119:1

131:5 140:2

204:14 206:14,17

207:3,12,14,15,17

208:8 210:16,21

218:3 229:7

240:22 251:2,3,14

251:16 273:3

331:1

keeping 207:8

210:14 266:19

286:5

Keith 2:13 38:22

kept 324:3

kernel 299:6

key 67:6 294:19

361:6 364:19

372:15

keys 249:21 278:10

kick 319:20

kids 196:12 263:15

killing 316:11

kind 6:22 15:15

17:3 23:6 30:13

40:11 43:3 60:6

61:22 77:9 79:4

86:10 94:5 95:11

136:5 149:9 154:9

190:7 192:11

195:22 204:14,15

207:7 208:3,4

210:17 211:1

216:3,14 218:1,16

220:16 221:3

223:1 225:15

238:15,17 245:21

247:17 277:8

278:22 279:11

290:10 299:14

319:8 320:3 322:2

326:1,7 328:10

344:22 345:3

349:16 350:19

353:15 356:8

357:6 370:19

372:6,9 375:3,4

375:10 377:4

378:11

kindly 7:17

kinds 209:14

233:15

kitchen 247:1

knew 244:9 246:17

377:7

knife 149:2 154:9

know 4:14 12:8

20:9,14 21:10

22:15 23:9 24:4,6

28:14,19 30:7,7

30:13,15,16,18

33:2 37:8,21 38:1

39:4,6 40:3,10,21

46:20 48:12,22

50:13 53:15 54:1

54:5,21 55:15

57:18,19 67:3

76:1 78:17,22

79:5,16 81:19

87:22 96:4 103:8

104:18,20 105:2,2

105:6,8,9,19

106:1,5,14 107:19

108:4,16 109:22

111:8,20 121:5

122:8,15,17,22

127:7,11,20,21

128:1 130:5

136:15,18 137:9

139:9,10 140:19

141:13,16 143:7

143:16 144:8,10

144:19,20,21

147:11,12 148:12

149:1,3,19 150:8

150:9,19 151:7,14

151:15,18 152:5

153:4 154:8,9,19

155:3 156:10,11

156:11 157:19

158:14 162:7

164:17,19 165:13

173:18 175:7,16

176:2,8 177:22

178:14 180:1

183:19 184:4

185:1,7,9 186:10

186:16 191:9

194:4 199:22

201:20 202:3

203:8,8,9,17

204:5,22 205:6,21

206:10,16 207:7

208:9,18 209:9,10

209:11 211:15

212:8 213:6 214:4

214:11 219:5,11

221:12 223:3,13

223:18 224:14,21

229:10 230:15,16

232:19,20 234:2

234:12 235:9,12

236:2 238:6 242:5

242:22 243:5

246:21 249:2,5

251:2,17,21 252:2

252:8 254:16

255:8 257:7 258:2

259:22 261:4,4,16

261:21 262:3,18

263:19 265:5

266:17,18,19

267:11 268:3

269:7 270:11

271:22 273:12

274:7 275:1,17

278:4,5 281:16

283:10,15 284:10

288:16,17 289:6

289:14 290:2,13

290:19 291:16,18

293:4 294:16

297:4,19 305:8

307:19 314:19,20

316:20 317:22

320:17 322:22

323:10 326:7,12

326:13 327:2,2

328:10 330:11

335:10 336:4

341:8 343:15,21

346:12 349:12,14

349:21 350:22

351:5 352:17

353:3 354:20

355:8 357:2 358:4

359:7 371:12

372:2 373:21

374:21 375:2,12

380:5

knowing 78:12

105:2 149:11

287:15

knowingly 144:9

knowledge 24:3

90:21 104:3,17,21

105:1,12 112:18

120:21 196:3

knowledgeable

299:3

known 105:3

knows 177:16

221:2 276:3

284:22

L

L'Enfant 1:9

lab 88:9,12,14,18

88:20,22 89:14,20

91:15 92:9 93:6

lab's 89:22

label 17:3,9,13,16

18:10,11,20 19:3

19:12 20:22 23:4

24:21,22 25:6,11

25:12,15,19 26:20

26:22 27:1,7,8,9

27:10,18 28:4,11

29:1 31:17 33:11

60:5 71:18,20

72:10 156:18,19

157:2,12,20 162:9

163:6 164:11

169:12 172:11

178:11 179:2,3,5
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 402

179:8,9 180:19

181:18 211:21

221:16 222:21

224:8 252:7,11,13

254:16 278:22

297:16,17 298:4,8

298:13,14,15

299:18 300:1

301:3 313:12

315:22 317:17

320:7 321:3,10,19

322:3 323:8,16

324:11,13 325:11

325:19,20 326:3

329:11 330:13,22

330:22 331:11,13

331:21 332:3,9

333:6 336:10,12

341:21 345:20

346:9,14 354:6,8

354:19 359:9

362:3,4,5,18

364:7 367:6,7,8

367:15 373:16

378:6,9 379:3,20

379:21

label's 320:14

labeled 23:19

364:11

labeler 102:12

104:1

labelers 63:16

labeling 10:11 22:3

41:19 43:3 54:22

156:9 164:13

181:8 279:19,21

313:20 353:2

373:13 375:12

labeling's 364:19

labels 10:15 73:7

337:21 367:2

labor 240:21 263:1

labs 89:17 90:18

91:6,18,21 93:1

lack 24:3

lacking 254:1

laid 140:1 162:9

318:8

land 136:19

lands 154:17

lane 367:20

language 9:17,22

15:3,9,13,21

16:16 23:13 65:12

99:2 181:8

lap 154:18

laps 155:1

large 18:5 70:7

166:16 215:18

243:11,18 269:15

348:3

larger 134:19

153:7 168:22

180:10 226:12

280:18 344:4

365:18,21

largest 315:15

317:8

late 46:20 240:2

247:17 376:10

latent 166:6

Lattanzi 1:18 60:2

60:2,13,21 61:5,9

61:19 114:17,17

115:2,10 116:4,12

116:18,22 118:11

120:12,15,16,21

121:3,16 125:8,17

126:1,3,9 127:3

128:11 160:20

161:1,6,9,21

162:6 175:19

178:6,16 179:20

180:3 188:10,21

309:22 310:1,8,17

310:21 311:3,21

312:5,6,18 316:12

318:1 327:13,14

327:19 340:19

341:5,14,18 342:2

342:22 345:2,8,12

Laura 2:10 84:20

85:10 91:3 337:4

Laura's 337:1

law 38:14 94:19

95:19 105:12

109:3 145:5,14

273:21,21 274:2

274:10,20 275:14

276:13 277:15

282:4 288:12,17

laws 39:5 197:14

197:14,18 273:17

379:10

lawsuit 7:10

lawyer 101:9

lawyers 101:7

106:14 107:10

169:5 298:22

lay 161:9 274:18

lays 10:15 17:17

62:12 305:15

lead 269:8 271:14

leading 319:19

leaking 195:13

222:2

lean 213:18

leanly 213:22

learn 90:15

leave 156:8 166:10

209:12 246:20

376:12

lecture 192:19

193:5

left 55:7 59:2

227:17 242:3

left-hand 334:13

legal 63:19 77:13

77:14 100:7

117:16 119:5,5,17

122:8 154:3,6,15

163:20 174:3,14

175:21 179:16

180:22 181:9,19

284:6 303:11

305:11,12 306:1,3

330:19 352:14

359:8

legally 123:18

127:22 164:15

307:18 328:13

379:9

legislated 292:20

legislative 15:21

legislature 90:10

legitimate 183:6

292:21 346:6,11

legitimately 182:4

legwork 245:13

length 13:3 121:17

leniency 258:18

Lennox 2:16 21:18

21:20 23:16,18

46:5 64:12 66:11

77:8 225:18 226:3

226:6 246:13

273:16 299:8

lesser 78:7 330:13

let's 7:13 9:5,6

15:17 17:2,7 18:9

46:22 48:9 56:6

71:7 80:4 81:14

84:14 96:16,18

99:17 106:1 116:3

121:22 130:17

131:9 141:10

142:4 161:2,4

173:5 181:12

223:9 244:15

275:9,14,18 301:8

315:2 330:20,20

330:22 332:19

333:12 348:17

350:19 351:7

369:16 377:19,21

378:12

letting 189:22

level 19:16 35:3,13

76:11,15 79:19

82:7 108:1 139:17

139:17 187:14

261:11 286:8

292:15 311:19

344:19 360:4

370:3 371:12

372:18 373:5

levels 198:20 374:1

levy 90:10

liability 155:9

170:4 182:13

185:1,2,6

liable 92:14

license 236:18,19

274:22

licenses 236:14,16

237:3 268:20

lieu 378:6

life 57:17 83:8

133:13 160:5,6

201:5

light 66:6 96:10

128:12

lighting 89:9

103:10,11

liked 135:9

likelihood 377:14

limit 58:21 65:7

limitation 330:19

limited 7:4 39:18

45:18 47:19 57:3

74:15 83:22 84:4

109:10,13,14

142:20 254:12

Lincoln 1:14 29:9

line 12:3 44:7 52:10

119:2 134:16,17

137:17 169:4

208:16 212:19

232:12 274:11,13

281:13 286:22

292:13,13 319:13

322:19 342:9,20

344:20 345:16

360:8,10,18

lined 361:1

lines 270:8 325:19

345:1 362:7

list 4:9 33:8 60:1

77:9 114:13

369:17

listed 74:2 228:17

listen 87:9 95:5

102:16 149:21

listened 87:17

listening 36:4
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 403

277:6

listings 289:22

lists 69:22 103:17

103:18

literature 224:19

225:8,11

litigation 43:7

44:13 53:1

little 5:4 6:11 8:11

19:2 38:1 49:5

60:6 63:1 101:8

114:12 115:5

140:18 142:11

145:19 154:10

155:15 161:22

190:10 193:6

201:2,14 204:13

212:2 214:11

215:17 218:15

229:21 249:14

260:5 287:9 293:3

377:16

live 134:4 215:14

373:4

lives 133:1

living 168:3 267:8

289:5

Liz 153:9

LLC 2:4

LLP 1:16

load 78:6 79:16

202:20 244:17

246:6

loads 341:15

loans 200:3

locality 34:22

location 144:22

218:13

locations 247:4,5

logic 366:13

logically 159:17

long 69:15 79:21

97:3 133:5 179:10

200:13 216:16

242:3 257:13

264:14 267:15

269:12 281:1

329:10 335:14

339:13,15 359:10

367:11

longer 99:5 118:19

346:1 381:2

look 7:15 15:14

17:18 22:10,16

31:13 40:22 59:15

64:10 83:15 86:14

93:13 96:8 107:13

109:18 123:7,11

124:21 137:19

143:16 146:14

149:4,4,4 162:8

194:19 202:17

221:9 231:6 242:9

244:15,21 254:7

258:16 267:10,11

274:8 292:2 324:2

326:3 333:5 336:5

358:8 365:8

looked 209:11

254:9 260:7

365:10

looking 31:17 36:1

97:21 104:19

110:5,11,12

148:10 170:2

183:1 189:17

200:9 220:22

227:21,22 242:4

248:20 279:12

328:7,13 342:19

346:15 348:14

375:9

looks 76:22 89:2

346:18 377:16

loopholes 372:7

lose 235:2 241:20

241:20 255:10

370:9

losing 351:14

loss 217:4

lost 240:21 293:15

lot 10:12 12:14,17

12:20 46:18 52:13

54:2 57:14 59:5

60:3,4 63:13

67:13,16 70:6

80:7 91:10 110:1

120:4 123:20

124:3 133:16

134:19 135:4,14

136:21,22 137:10

140:7 150:5

151:15 154:11,18

160:11 189:1

191:9 195:20

201:6 208:15

213:16,19 216:2

218:18,20 220:21

220:22 227:1

252:4 253:2

254:20 259:12

262:16 282:15

285:20 286:16

291:13 307:9

315:8 335:4 342:3

348:3,4 350:18

353:3 370:9

371:10,11 379:13

lots 133:11 208:19

208:21 238:10

241:14 353:5

loud 141:9 354:9

louder 4:11

love 204:2 248:22

255:2

loving 275:3

low 140:16 286:8

351:11

low-lying 124:19

lower 35:6 169:2

174:12 282:4

313:3 334:13,13

334:16 335:7

341:8,15 352:1

lowest 124:12

158:15 167:7,9

339:11

lubricants 125:14

lubricating 125:22

luckily 178:1

lucky 219:3 226:17

lunch 178:2 190:20

190:22 192:13

lunchtime 289:20

lying 103:8

M

ma'am 209:7

machine 137:7

magazine 273:19

magazines 269:16

magic 295:11

358:19

magically 205:6

magnetic 266:13

mail 237:5,8

main 63:2 152:6

185:17

maintain 106:10

169:1

maintaining

327:16

maintains 264:15

370:22

major 215:10,16

218:14 241:4

258:20

majority 23:21

239:1 274:14

275:8 288:21

358:4

make-believe

195:22

making 9:7 14:12

26:19 50:21 51:2

54:4 68:9 91:11

91:12 105:10

157:3 198:12

240:21 256:8

266:7 272:7 281:6

288:11 290:11

325:18 326:4

328:14 375:16

378:13 380:12

MALE 4:10 364:16

man 215:13 225:9

242:21 253:5

263:10 286:4

287:17

managed 88:12

89:14

mandate 16:14

40:4 98:14

manilla 263:11

manner 82:19

312:14 372:5

Manual 78:6 79:15

manufacture 10:9

17:14 63:4,17

118:21 173:19

302:8 303:22

306:11 310:15

manufactured 9:20

17:11 18:12 45:4

47:5,6,16 115:14

117:2

manufacturer 12:5

12:19 13:4,10

14:7,20 15:6

48:11 63:3 64:11

74:16 75:1 76:10

76:15 81:8 82:12

88:17 92:4,9,12

92:18 93:12 94:9

94:16 97:13 98:6

102:5,8,12 104:1

105:4 106:8

143:13,17 144:1

153:1 154:12,21

155:9 164:9

165:16 169:14

170:4 174:2 182:3

182:19 183:3

228:3 229:4,5

262:20 285:8

306:13 331:10

336:11 352:12

374:20

manufacturer's

25:18 143:14

154:17 175:7

252:11

manufacturers

15:12 24:10 25:19

39:13 63:10 64:8

68:8,22 70:17
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 404

74:14 82:5 83:9

83:22 85:3 91:21

96:22 101:14

104:7 112:8

118:17 143:19

153:18 158:16

180:6 181:17

182:1,15 185:2

188:15 191:9

216:7 217:14

231:7 252:20,21

284:8 287:11,21

288:3,10 289:2

291:14 365:16

375:20

manufacturing

1:13,19 2:19 11:6

11:12 17:13 28:1

82:8 118:14

153:21 375:19

map 254:15

margin 201:4

213:13

mark 137:12

377:11,12

market 38:18

42:14 46:18 78:19

83:3 115:12

130:10 133:1,1

134:7 135:9 142:9

151:16 157:21

158:11,17 162:10

188:5 194:16,18

199:19 204:3,4

212:12,18 215:20

233:11 239:6,7

264:12 277:8

281:18 282:1

287:18 344:17

366:3,7,19 371:1

373:7

marketers 379:15

marketing 50:2

180:20 221:22

226:22

marketplace 60:22

72:15 151:13

326:15

markets 130:15,19

193:8,11 215:11

match 24:7 31:10

70:8 179:1 182:20

183:4 231:6 334:2

339:4,5 347:6

match-up 231:8

matched 126:19

247:14

matches 170:22

181:21 194:10,14

matching 21:22

23:22 70:8 336:19

material 5:21

29:14

materials 25:18,20

331:5

Matt 60:1,2 114:17

120:15 124:22,22

125:4,6 126:17

131:6 160:16

161:5 162:7 178:3

185:13 188:19

309:22 312:6

327:13

matter 7:16 62:17

113:16 116:8,19

149:22 163:7

187:12,18 192:16

283:22 295:6

301:15 368:11

381:10

matters 188:4

MATTHEW 1:18

maximum 95:18

96:6,8

McCrudden 2:17

14:15,16 24:19

26:6 29:3 66:5

106:5,20 107:2,14

107:17 114:15

138:10 139:19,19

140:22 142:4,7,13

142:18 143:9

156:17,22 157:4,7

157:9,14 191:14

191:18,21 192:2,7

250:17 252:1

253:17,21 255:17

256:11,13,16,21

259:7,8,9 285:18

320:3,10,14,20

321:5 328:5 333:5

333:11

MCCRUDDY

260:12

mean 9:15 37:16

40:1 45:11 51:2

56:15 59:10 61:3

67:7 71:8 76:20

84:12,13 104:10

109:21 129:7

137:10,16 139:6

145:4 146:9,14,20

147:18 150:7

153:16,19 161:5

168:2 170:16

171:21 174:10

176:4 186:11

193:8 195:7

196:20 200:2

201:2,5 203:12

204:2,9 207:18

213:14,22 217:21

219:4 220:8

221:20 222:2

224:11 225:20

235:3 236:5,9,16

241:13 244:13

249:4 251:12

259:20 272:20

275:7,17 280:1

290:15 291:3

294:6 314:22

320:10 323:3

327:15 331:4,8

339:2 340:19,20

340:22 341:7,21

353:2,10 357:11

358:9,18 363:20

364:18 365:2,3

372:7 373:1 379:9

379:10 380:11,19

meaning 74:16

75:21 163:4

meaningful 372:10

means 23:22 45:15

46:11 67:7,8,9,20

99:4 105:2,19

113:2 163:11

173:11 179:6

196:15 210:6

212:8 218:3

233:12 238:15

315:16,18 317:13

331:9 337:14

346:8

meant 100:14

126:2 178:19

measure 137:11

mechanical 240:6

mechanism 22:3

48:6 181:13 273:5

371:18

median 160:6

meet 30:17 42:2

72:15 77:4 82:4

91:6,20 93:9

94:18 98:21

119:12 128:19

131:20 137:9

176:11 302:10,15

304:2,6,12 308:20

315:20 317:15

328:15 356:11

meeting 1:5 14:5

15:2 38:14 79:4

79:11 93:8 113:19

126:12,16 295:22

299:5 304:16

371:13 374:1,16

376:4,8 381:9

meetings 13:21

259:10,10

meets 256:9 340:5

345:20

Melchi 2:18 45:13

110:4,12,15 111:1

111:17 112:6,21

113:4 231:19,22

231:22 248:9,9,16

248:19 369:7

member 4:17 5:8

11:20 12:2 13:18

14:14 15:19 19:18

20:2,5,8 21:7

22:21 23:16 24:1

24:16 26:11 27:3

27:5,22 28:6,8,14

28:21 29:5,8 31:1

31:3,8,11,12,15

31:16,19 32:1,2,8

32:9,12,19,20

33:12,17 34:4,18

35:17 36:18,22

37:4,14,16 38:7

38:16 41:20 43:8

43:14,15,17,22

44:11 47:21 48:10

48:20 49:3,12,15

50:3,16,19 51:1,8

51:14 52:5,7,11

53:20 54:3 56:10

56:13,20 57:5

59:4,7 60:2,13,21

61:5,9,19 71:12

71:14 73:5,12

74:4,6,10 75:10

75:16 76:8,12

78:1 79:6,13

83:11,14,19 84:10

85:2,5,12,17

86:15,18 87:2,10

87:18,20 88:2

90:4,8 91:8,9,16

92:2,15 97:10,12

97:20 98:2,11,18

99:1,11 100:5,12

100:14 105:13

108:6,10 109:15

193:1 204:17

207:17 208:6,14

210:18 211:5,11

211:18 212:1,5,11

214:7,15,16,19

216:21 217:12,16

217:19,22 218:10
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 405

218:17 219:16

220:10,17 221:18

222:4,7,12,15,18

223:1 224:4,10

226:1 227:2,8,13

228:7 230:9,13,17

230:19,22 231:2,5

231:11 232:10

234:5,19,21 235:1

235:3,7,8 236:11

236:15,17 237:12

238:2,5 241:8,10

242:2 243:4,10,11

243:13 244:2,7,8

244:9,11,13,15

246:9 247:19

248:4,7,15,18,20

250:2,5,8,14

253:15,19 255:15

255:19 256:12

257:4,20,21

258:10 260:15

262:4,7,10 264:17

265:18 268:11,12

268:13,14 269:10

269:21 271:1,9,13

271:16 272:5,10

272:12 275:6,20

276:8,10 278:9,20

280:1,11 281:8,11

281:14 283:9,13

283:15 284:19

285:1,3,15 286:14

287:5,8 290:7

292:6,17,19,22

293:9 295:10,15

295:18 296:11,16

296:19 297:11,14

297:19 298:7

299:19 300:11

302:20 303:1,12

304:20 305:3,18

305:22 306:7,9,15

306:17,18,19

307:7 308:4,6,10

308:17 309:2,13

309:22 310:8,17

310:21 311:3

312:18,21 313:10

313:15 314:3,6,18

316:1,2,4,7,11,12

316:14,21 317:19

317:22 318:1,3,11

318:18 319:2

320:1,9,13,16,21

321:9,14 323:11

324:9 326:10

327:13,18,19

328:6,9,17,21

329:2,9,19 330:2

330:8 331:3,8,16

331:17,20 332:2

332:10,14,19,21

333:2,9,12,17,19

334:3,6,9,11,14

334:18,20 335:2

335:10,14,20

337:3,9,14,17,20

337:22 338:2,12

338:22 339:13,15

339:17,19,21

340:3,8,11,19

341:4,5,12,14,16

341:18,21 342:2,4

342:5,7,22 343:1

343:5,8,11,15,17

343:21 344:6,7,8

344:11,15 345:2,5

345:8,10,12,15,18

346:13,17 347:1,9

347:11,12,14,16

347:18,19,21

348:2,7,22 349:3

349:4,7,10,12,14

349:21 350:2,5,6

350:7,16 351:13

351:16,17 352:3,6

352:8,10,16,17,19

352:20,22 353:1,9

353:13,17,19,21

354:4 355:3,19

356:1,20 357:4,8

357:11,13,16,18

358:2,14,16,18,21

360:12,13 361:3,5

361:10,12,15,18

361:19 362:6,10

362:11,14 363:16

364:1,10,12,18

365:7 366:15

367:5,11,13,17,19

367:21 368:1,9,14

368:20 369:10,19

371:7 372:13

375:10 376:3,7,9

376:17,20 377:1

377:10,12 378:7

378:14,15,21

379:11 380:8,18

380:21 381:1

members 30:10,11

31:22 32:17 34:10

37:7 38:2 71:15

112:11 232:2

250:22 251:5

252:17 259:19

267:13,15,15

membership

267:11 274:6

mentality 201:16

mention 139:6

215:6 299:9

mentioned 6:5

30:19 43:5 44:6

78:21 94:3 121:17

220:2 225:14

243:6 254:13

255:14 266:1

359:4 371:16

message 278:7

291:5

messed 345:3

met 50:7 119:21

348:5

meter 126:20

method 69:10

166:4 256:8

methodology

309:19

methods 297:1,21

metropolitan

215:10

Mexico 8:13

Meyers 1:19 19:18

20:2,5,8 21:7

23:16 24:16 59:4

59:7 73:12 74:4

83:14,19 85:2,5

85:12,17 118:12

120:7 122:7,11,14

127:4,17,19

128:20 129:4,7,11

130:14 131:2

132:12 136:20

138:12 140:21

150:15,17,18,22

151:22 152:13

164:7 165:4,15

169:20 172:18

173:1,4,9,15,18

174:13,21 175:2,6

175:11,22 176:22

177:9,19 262:10

264:17 265:4

300:14 307:12

317:1 324:9 334:9

334:14,20 339:19

340:11 342:4,7

343:1,11,21 350:2

350:6 351:13,17

352:8,17,20 353:1

353:19 357:4,8,13

357:18 358:2,16

360:12 361:3,15

362:6,11 363:16

364:1

micrometer 137:12

mid-level 287:17

middle 198:10

336:21 360:2

middleman 64:20

Mike 239:10

miles 283:18 284:3

million 70:4 73:15

228:20 288:5

292:16

mind 17:15 55:15

74:7 118:4 137:21

145:22 170:1

203:7 219:18

273:10 331:19

371:11

minds 378:10

379:5

mindset 136:2

mine 262:14

265:14

mine's 263:19

minimal 279:3,3

298:16

minimize 200:17

203:21

minimizes 277:13

minimum 35:22

36:3 39:3,15,21

40:4 94:19 119:14

119:16 127:9

138:16 144:22

173:20 174:14

176:3,8,11 204:18

308:19 321:4

324:15 331:12

332:6,9,18,22

336:3 337:6

344:18 347:17

348:5 351:14

352:2,14 358:6

360:10 361:2

362:21 370:12

378:19

minimum-efficie...

36:8,14 40:19

minimums 308:21

309:3

Minnesota 283:5

284:15

minor 195:11

minute 213:14

219:11 275:4

302:22 358:22

minutes 62:5

197:11 284:17

315:1

Mishawaka 236:22

misheard 126:4
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 406

mislead 322:22

misleading 313:5

320:13,20,22

322:15 341:22

355:1

missing 120:6

145:22 216:15

misstated 125:15

mistake 81:3,4,5

mistakes 290:21

mitigate 348:4

mix 180:19 239:4

mix-matched

247:16

Mixed 212:10

Mm-hmm 210:18

219:16 243:10

mode 37:12

model 22:16 39:10

68:14,14 69:17,18

73:19,21 74:2,3

75:7 110:8 117:19

203:17 208:11,12

208:18 218:12

261:11,15,18

262:19 317:9

342:9 356:14

360:8,10 362:2

363:3,17 366:8

367:5,8,9 368:2,3

380:16 381:5

modeling 69:15

336:14

models 68:2 70:4,6

70:8 73:15 160:4

359:17 363:4

365:10,17 366:2

366:17 367:7

370:12

modified 116:7

modify 371:15

372:4

moisture 166:10

mom 217:6

moment 13:14 56:6

85:19 98:16 100:8

101:10 160:13

279:21 314:16

324:20

moments 354:9

monetary 51:19

money 34:15 36:11

38:12 45:16,21

51:16 52:1 57:1

94:5 97:8 103:2

123:20 131:15

132:19 134:21

135:4 138:1 140:7

142:10,15 189:11

197:21 201:14

204:18 209:22

229:20,22 236:3

272:8 288:22

monitor 149:15

monitoring 145:6

Montana 261:22

284:16

month 241:12

monthly 37:9

months 47:1,18

151:10 289:10,11

moonlight 272:7

morning 5:3 9:13

113:7 291:22

motor 135:17

229:10 270:2

307:14

motors 89:9 205:9

238:16 260:18

mouth 158:20

move 72:20 114:7

130:3 143:4

153:12,16 161:2

188:4 212:17

213:15 230:4

236:2 275:19

moved 265:3 366:7

mover 20:3,15

70:10 175:20

movers 60:6

moving 175:14

176:6,12 241:14

MR.CLARK 167:7

muddy 209:12

multi 46:12

multi-family

193:14 194:4

multiple 223:15

232:4

municipality 236:5

mute 316:22

MYERS 302:20

303:1 308:4

309:13 314:6,18

316:2,7,11,14

317:19,22 318:3

318:11 320:1,9,13

321:9 331:8,17

332:10,19 333:2

333:17 334:3

335:20 337:3,9,14

337:17,22 338:12

341:4 343:15

347:12,18 361:10

361:19

N

NAHB 65:6 239:13

240:1 241:4

nails 246:15,16

name 5:1 11:1

38:21 54:11 79:9

110:8 120:14

263:11

name's 296:4

narrow 40:11

351:8

narrows 283:7

national 2:3,13,21

11:5,13,14 49:10

54:14 75:13 108:1

117:14,18 118:5

124:11 173:10,11

302:16 309:10,17

342:13 368:2

370:1 381:5

nationally 119:14

Natural 1:19

nature 197:13,14

near 27:19 178:1

241:22 340:21

nearly 54:15

nebulous 261:9

necessarily 101:9

139:1,13 149:15

276:20 283:20

297:4 322:20

347:22 350:14

354:1 364:21

necessary 16:4

91:2 99:21 146:6

need 9:3 19:15

20:10 27:20 28:11

29:15 30:2 39:12

48:7 58:2 60:10

91:19 93:21 98:21

110:19 111:8

114:7,11,21 122:7

122:14 127:20

147:7,14,14 148:4

148:7 149:1,18

152:15 160:13

170:5,6 176:17

183:19 184:11

185:14 193:20

196:22 197:10

201:20,21,22

203:2,7,8,9,16,21

222:16 223:7

224:3 227:18

228:9,10,11,17

233:20 239:17

244:19 246:15,19

246:20,21 247:2,3

247:7 248:5

249:11 251:20

257:11 259:22

260:19 277:19

285:13 295:14

314:15,18 317:10

326:1 333:2,3

338:3,14,21

341:13 347:13

350:3 367:17

368:18 369:12,12

needed 3:14 113:20

133:22 196:13

246:17 316:9

needs 53:17 72:15

77:4 92:18 101:11

115:7 170:3

204:10 233:6

266:22 324:15

332:9 347:17

negative 41:14

80:11 94:15

negotiated 91:11

negotiation 16:3

48:19 98:17,20

99:20 100:9

101:11 104:13

114:2

Neil 1:9,12 4:17

21:9

Neil's 73:5

neither 230:22

net 138:18

Nevada 8:13

never 23:21 120:22

127:5 128:18,21

170:1 172:16

197:2 200:16

211:9 217:16

257:9 275:11

331:19 379:22

new 6:6 8:13 39:5

50:13 102:12

119:3 123:15

127:9 128:10

131:16 132:4

133:14 180:11

189:5,6 190:1,2

191:8 193:12,13

193:22 194:7

195:15 196:13

206:11 216:8

222:17 224:3

288:18 302:10,17

304:2,8,15,18

305:1,7 307:6

319:3 354:8

380:16

Newsome 295:21

324:21

nice 205:3

niche 370:6
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 407

night 186:3 190:19

214:6 216:15

240:2 372:19

nine 274:1

nitrogen 118:22

nod 36:16 294:18

nodding 85:13

129:3 155:18

185:18,20

Noll 1:19 31:19

32:2 43:8,14,17

49:12,15 50:3,16

50:19 51:1,8,14

52:5 53:20 76:8

84:10 86:15,18

87:2,10,18,20

97:10,12,20

100:14 126:5,11

126:21 153:9,9

177:7 188:1 243:4

243:11 244:2,9,13

246:9 247:19

248:4,7 255:15

257:20 281:8,11

331:3 347:16,19

348:2,22 349:4

371:7

non-AHRI 71:13

71:15

non-complaint

94:10

non-compliant

364:6

non-condensing

366:6

non-emergency

235:20

non-minimum-st...

41:8

noncompliance

81:11 94:7

noncompliant

47:12 83:7 94:2

102:20 108:15

153:18

nonexistent 132:8

nonmembers 32:17

nonparticipation

35:13

NOPR 254:10

Nordyne 1:18 60:3

114:18 120:16

norm 133:15,18

134:1 233:14

normally 123:22

125:13 228:7

north 154:3,6

178:20 284:6

307:16 310:1

319:5 321:11

324:14 333:22

341:11,13 351:1,9

352:4 356:22

357:9,16,19

358:20 359:1,17

360:5 362:4

364:15 367:16

368:5

northern 332:16

359:2 367:8,9

368:2

northwest 29:19

37:18 39:11

notarized 237:12

note 7:4 44:20 78:2

192:9

noted 379:3

notes 5:19

notice 5:19 94:8

268:1

notify 95:2

noun 142:8

nowadays 198:8

NRDC 31:19 43:8

153:9

NRECA 39:1 180:7

NTA 12:21

nuanced 190:12

number 5:20 8:1

22:16 55:1 65:12

68:2 72:8 78:4

86:12 93:16 96:10

96:13 106:6 110:8

137:9 171:14

179:12,14,16

180:7 208:12

210:12 218:12,12

246:3 250:10,11

251:3,8,18 252:17

253:18 256:17

262:19 277:14

296:4 329:16

332:18 334:12

336:18,20 341:7

344:22 346:4

350:10 357:21

377:9 380:17,17

numbers 68:16

110:21 130:11,21

131:10 207:15,19

208:11 213:7

245:15 260:13

261:12 325:10

346:16 356:3

numerical 255:21

O

o'clock 368:12

obey 85:19 86:18

objective 113:3

objectives 371:6

obligation 145:5

obliges 273:8

obscure 237:20

observation 269:22

observe 102:9

obstacle 191:12

obstinate 340:17

obvious 23:6

279:13 288:3

369:1

obviously 27:8

30:16 48:17 57:6

188:13 206:15

occasionally

223:18 261:18

occasions 199:2

occupations 240:14

occur 293:8

OEM 182:14,20

OEMs 164:18

181:15

offenders 280:5,14

offense 147:13,15

248:21

offer 108:4 171:5

181:3 220:3 292:3

offering 180:18

298:3

office 210:16

214:20 231:13

234:9 237:11

249:15

official 239:22

255:18,20 303:8,9

312:14

officially 99:13

316:19

oftentimes 248:11

oh 87:21 157:14

191:1 202:13

217:16 229:9

236:15 246:9

248:15 250:8,16

253:5 259:8 262:5

305:3 308:8

313:15 316:4

322:14 323:9

357:13

oil 125:22

okay 4:12 6:4 13:18

15:19 17:9 18:6,8

18:9 24:17 27:5

27:13 28:13 29:5

31:2 33:7 37:3,15

42:22 44:12 48:10

50:16 51:14 52:6

53:16 54:13 61:8

61:21 62:3,7 66:4

66:8 70:16 71:6

72:11,20 73:10

74:4 77:21 80:4

85:5,12,17 87:19

88:6 91:16 92:20

95:14 97:20 98:11

98:18 99:11 100:4

100:5,12 106:3

107:20 110:14

112:6 113:4,6

119:14,18 120:9

122:16 125:5

126:3 132:15,21

135:1,4 137:3

140:22 144:12

150:21 153:18

158:3 160:10

163:21 165:8

167:21 168:6,9

170:11,13 171:20

171:21 172:7,19

173:1 176:13

177:19 180:3

186:1,2 187:7,11

187:22 188:8,9,21

190:18 191:1,21

196:14 203:1

214:17 228:13

231:4 245:6,12

249:19 257:1,19

258:8 259:1

260:21 272:12

275:20 284:8

303:21 304:19

305:13 306:15

309:13 310:8

311:2,3 312:5,18

313:15 318:1

320:2 327:21

329:9 330:2,8

331:18 334:10

335:12 339:6,17

344:17,18 349:20

354:7,11 357:6

360:14 361:10

362:8,12 376:3

377:1,12 380:21

381:8

Oklahoma 283:16

old 50:15 57:13

247:9 304:22

older 124:5

once 22:15 93:15

161:2 185:10

213:1 256:16

oncoming 157:13

one's 228:15,16
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 408

one-man 263:13

onerous 55:14

ones 12:7,8 50:11

50:13 80:12

100:16,22 101:1

185:17 186:2

228:16 238:18

253:6 258:1,6

278:1 280:14

299:2 329:22

360:8 368:10

onesy/twosey 232:8

online 32:5 231:14

259:13,22 260:11

261:15

open 15:17 32:16

48:9 51:6 76:6,6

76:16 99:17

100:11 105:20

202:3 256:1

260:22 281:4

310:4,7 311:13

377:17,18 378:3

opened 118:17

345:9

opens 226:15

operate 42:8 102:3

165:12 205:17

213:17 230:2

277:9,13 282:12

operating 201:11

201:13 213:22

356:22

operation 64:20

109:22 215:13

228:8 245:22

246:1,8

operations 215:1,9

opinion 48:22 49:7

98:16 170:12

310:7 322:5 345:3

opinions 98:20

265:8

opportunities

133:11

opportunity 138:14

371:3

opposed 132:6

372:5

option 124:13

131:16 222:5

234:2,6 298:3

327:1 328:16

options 233:3,4

243:9 244:4 247:3

299:1 328:8

oranges 353:8,8

order 30:20 41:3

78:12 87:6,7,15

89:16 91:6,22

119:12 144:5

147:7,13 151:9

168:22 199:14

243:21 268:17

ordered 42:7

organization 37:11

89:1 180:7 211:16

211:19 220:11,11

221:4 235:11

345:7 370:18

371:4

organizations

224:13 225:6

265:17

organized 82:17,17

110:8 263:8

origin 87:2

original 310:1

ought 371:3

outcome 306:20

outdoor 70:9 73:22

116:6 164:14

170:17 195:13

198:6 208:12

317:9 319:12

334:8 339:4 341:9

350:8 359:21

outfit 215:22 249:3

outlined 158:14

outlive 265:1

outreach 42:13

outside 34:3 67:17

79:3,11 90:21

134:18 196:17

277:9 358:10

over-complicating

141:3

overall 130:10

290:16 298:2

overhead 214:2

216:18 266:21

overlap 278:16

369:22

overnight 113:20

overriding 16:13

oversized 79:22

307:16,17

overstate 260:4

owned 36:13

owner's 215:2

owners 266:4

P

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

4:1

p.m 192:17 301:16

301:17 381:11

package 9:3 15:9

18:1 245:4 289:17

packaging 256:10

packet 212:2 223:5

224:20

packing 207:18

page 17:1 18:9,21

paid 34:16 86:9

131:20

pain 133:7

painfully 279:12

pair 179:15 227:21

paired 179:11

228:5 302:16

304:7

paper 4:21 251:4

paperwork 31:10

95:21 96:14

106:11 129:22

191:17 214:6,18

263:12 264:9

paragraph 97:3

part 7:12 9:7 11:16

14:16 23:4 25:9

32:17 42:10 43:10

44:13,20 58:17

62:10 70:18 80:18

94:11 106:15

116:16 119:8

123:22 126:10,11

130:5 132:3,5

138:18 141:1,16

142:2 152:10,18

153:6,7 180:18

181:12 183:15

188:1,20 193:5

210:1 225:17

227:5 234:14,18

234:22 235:15

254:3 257:10

258:10 266:1

268:4 278:11

294:7 296:12

298:15 302:17

304:8 307:6 311:7

PARTICIPANT

4:10 79:8 88:4

364:16

participate 32:22

188:6

participating 35:11

participation 34:21

35:3,5

particular 13:2

21:3 52:2 69:1

72:16 77:14 88:22

91:1 120:10

147:18 178:22

211:17,18 218:5

317:9 319:6

370:18

particularly 193:11

202:20 209:2

232:6

parties 62:21 84:7

153:13

partners 229:1

288:12,15 289:1

374:18

partnership 229:2

parts 62:9 63:18

68:19 69:22

127:12 133:15

196:2 205:8,10

234:3,12 237:21

237:22 238:13

239:2 241:14

260:17 272:11

302:6

party 48:4 63:2

103:19 111:18

231:7

pass 4:8,13,20 5:14

5:16 34:13 38:12

102:2

passed 227:1

273:18

passes 246:21

passionate 287:10

289:11

path 172:11

pathologist 149:6

patient 340:16

pause 302:21

paused 303:19

pawing 228:19

pay 29:20 57:1

137:22 217:7

274:12,12,13

278:8

payback 201:15

paying 36:11

219:12 374:6

PDF 18:22

pedantically 323:5

penalizing 290:9

penalties 45:3 50:1

50:4,20 53:10

56:15 57:4 58:10

58:15,17,22 81:12

86:21 95:16,16

96:7

penalty 45:15 95:3

95:18 96:9,10,14

278:8

Penton 269:15

people 12:16 13:16

14:11 25:3 29:11

30:21 33:7 39:14
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 409

54:11 56:16 63:3

68:9 71:4,6,22

75:6 81:1 95:17

102:19 108:16

127:1 135:10,11

136:8,10,10,16,17

140:15 143:3

146:3 147:7

155:18 158:14

180:8 184:11

194:19 196:11

197:19 199:9,17

199:18,22 200:10

200:22 201:7

202:5,19 205:13

208:3 209:20,22

210:21 211:2,2,7

211:11 212:8

214:1,3,20 215:5

217:7 220:22

223:12 224:14

225:6 226:8,19

227:14,18 231:7

236:3,20 238:3

240:16 242:17,19

259:12 260:18

263:7 274:4,19

277:9,14 278:5,6

279:5,13 280:17

280:21 282:10

283:11 285:12,13

289:19 290:12

292:7 321:17

324:18 346:11

350:22 359:16

364:20 368:10

379:14,18 380:9

people's 197:5

198:20 204:10

371:11

perceived 12:6

percent 23:18 34:6

35:7 56:19 92:8

130:12,20 131:1

238:13 255:10

269:20 287:22

293:14,16 341:19

370:5,8,8 372:17

372:18

percentage 33:20

235:21 237:20

251:3

perception 26:16

145:12 253:16,20

perception's 13:11

perfectly 163:20

perform 124:7

294:21 311:19

performance 68:15

75:3 105:6 157:1

157:5 293:15

307:1,3 313:3

315:21 317:16

324:3

performing 75:3

performs 68:14

105:9

period 46:17 48:15

49:17 267:21

295:1 309:15

permit 35:10

236:12 239:22

240:3 274:15

permits 235:12,14

235:17 237:4

253:21,22 254:2,2

254:4

permitting 236:10

239:21 274:7,8

permutations 70:7

170:22 231:16

perplex 190:20

person 34:11 84:2

85:3,4,7,14 105:5

109:14 111:22

220:7 221:6

227:15 231:21

237:11 373:2

person's 149:8

207:16

personal 229:16

personally 91:13

230:2 245:16

249:13 287:17

persons 63:3

perspective 28:12

36:4 52:20 73:18

74:12 124:10,20

133:4 175:8

219:20 250:20

265:14

pert 340:21

pertinent 211:7

pervasive 270:16

phase 159:7

PHCC 193:2

199:19 201:7

216:10

philosophy 229:16

phone 208:22

214:21 220:18

223:9 233:13

phonecall 270:15

physical 328:14

physically 134:18

201:1 267:5 329:8

physics 197:14,18

292:10

pick 233:13 319:16

picking 246:5

364:13,20

picture 17:16 209:5

209:8

pictures 208:22

piece 21:3 36:15

72:16 82:11 95:12

120:11 143:17

153:15 154:1

185:7 192:11

198:18 232:5

244:6 260:9

pieces 132:1 135:20

135:22 137:19

145:22 153:12

241:15

pipeline 367:6,22

pipes 367:12

pitch 197:20,20

pitched 65:3

pitches 201:9

place 24:5 30:2

70:20 119:13

132:7 164:5 183:8

196:1,2,3,4

243:21 280:9,16

280:22

places 39:6 217:6

236:6,7,13 284:5

plain 282:8

plan 16:5,13 49:22

98:15 99:22

100:10 112:15

143:22 150:19

151:9,18

plane 275:1

planned 233:9

234:6 243:19

282:17,18

planning 211:14

327:3

plant 374:2

play 78:8 82:15

104:5,5 121:22

134:13 142:15

221:16 234:3

352:10 375:15

player 287:17

playing 27:12 56:5

259:6 277:4

plays 57:7

Plaza 1:9

please 6:17 8:9,10

10:10,17 11:1

18:20 43:5 62:20

67:5,22 81:14

86:5 161:21

162:12 197:6,7

366:17

plenty 270:14

plenum 23:3

plethora 157:18

171:1

plug 256:14

plumbing 268:11

268:13,15

Plumbing-Heati...

2:3

Plural 250:1

plus 193:2 345:6

poached 253:3

pocket 138:1

point 5:10 13:17

16:7 20:9,21 24:8

24:17 26:1,18

27:1 29:6 36:21

38:10 41:21 46:8

46:14 48:11,17

55:10 57:19 60:16

62:2 63:12 68:21

70:16 73:6,14

77:20 90:22 91:17

93:21 107:7 109:6

113:9 143:21

144:1,10 146:7

150:12,13 152:7

159:8 161:7 164:2

167:16 189:20

219:13 222:4,21

226:11 255:13

257:7 264:1 265:1

278:22 279:22

280:2 281:3

291:21 296:16,17

296:20 297:3

329:18 330:3,20

335:9 348:9 353:9

353:14 354:20

372:15 378:17,19

pointed 236:7

291:22 345:13

pointing 103:7

252:20

points 11:9,11

24:21 41:18

250:18 262:17

325:15

poisoned 215:7

police 42:17 149:3

policemen 109:17

109:21

policies 52:18

356:7

policy 6:20 45:8,9

46:16 52:12 53:4

53:8,11,12 57:3
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 410

58:9 96:12 109:7

121:19 129:20

253:13

pool 275:22 276:15

poor 209:17

pop 217:7

popped 136:5

portal 336:19

Porter 1:20 116:4

168:12,15,16,16

168:20 169:3

170:8,8,12 184:21

184:21 185:9,21

230:18,22 231:5

232:10,11 234:19

235:1 257:22

275:6,6 285:15

286:14,14 287:5

326:10,11 327:18

328:9,17,21 329:9

329:19 330:2,8

349:7,12,21

352:10,19,22

364:12,18 375:10

376:3,7,17 378:14

portion 18:20

44:17 51:13

221:21

posed 169:8 191:4

250:19 312:16

position 13:13

44:21 87:7 97:17

99:2 161:7 303:9

322:2 326:17

positive 41:13

80:12,14 290:3,3

possession 66:15

66:19

possibilities 321:8

possibility 109:4

328:14

possible 7:18 35:2

37:11,20 41:13

98:21 128:5 180:9

180:19 181:6,13

223:20 225:9

241:19 278:14

329:8 330:14

344:16

possibly 39:19

41:14 65:4 67:13

70:10 79:3 107:9

111:10 194:18

210:22 295:21

365:4

post 209:3,7

post-January

188:13

pot 142:15

potential 256:6

294:8

potentially 39:5

41:3,8 348:4

363:1

power 29:20 374:2

PRA 106:18 107:6

107:12 191:4,5,11

191:16

practical 16:9

110:1 254:22

323:13

practicality 363:9

practice 156:10,11

157:16 367:10

pre-SEER 160:8,9

precedent 40:6

preclude 359:3,11

predict 372:8

preferred 252:22

prepare 223:2

presence 216:11

present 1:11 2:6

78:9 197:19 212:5

presentation 3:11

3:16 5:4,6 59:1

74:8 225:3 251:12

258:12

presentations

58:16

presented 295:7

presents 19:4

presiding 1:10

pressure 293:5

375:4,13

pressures 133:1

134:7 135:10

194:18 282:1

prestigious 242:20

presumably 153:3

336:14

presume 106:16

162:21 218:11

presuming 92:3

presumption 12:18

367:14

presumptive

159:20

pretty 29:18 30:9

34:6 37:1 90:21

106:7 161:4 166:5

166:7 171:22,22

194:14 198:4

210:11 212:16

258:11 279:5

291:19 348:10,13

349:17 369:1

prevalent 158:10

260:14

prevent 297:17

previous 223:14

previously 13:20

112:3 363:2

price 124:11

139:12 140:13

205:20 220:5

245:7 249:8

262:21,22 266:20

267:22

primarily 243:14

primary 232:17

principle 280:12,19

print 17:21 22:11

225:11

prior 49:13 60:19

115:13 128:8

193:2

priority 252:8

private 63:15

102:12 104:1

109:1,4

privy 205:17

pro-actively 371:15

probably 9:11

10:12 38:2 48:12

64:4 76:14 77:8

89:5,6 127:5

134:6 158:20

164:18 186:17

193:22 194:4,5

206:21,22 208:14

211:9 214:8,10

215:22 220:13

232:3 238:13

239:3 246:2,3

247:16 249:18

260:16 264:4

271:12 279:8

288:4 289:12

293:6 303:7 355:2

366:16

problem 13:1

120:3 129:10

148:21 162:3

193:19 195:11

229:18,19 230:1

241:4,6 256:19

260:5 266:1

278:15 282:16

286:19 287:2

339:20 340:2,5,12

340:14,16,20

341:3 345:18

365:5 380:3

problem's 347:2

problems 6:4

198:19

procedure 89:5,8

89:19 174:1,7

175:10 219:5

302:19 304:4,10

305:15,20 307:6

308:1,15 309:6,7

311:18 313:4,8,14

315:18 317:11

322:8,20 323:2

325:11 338:16

procedures 62:13

93:3 172:1 314:10

329:15 346:1

proceed 195:12

203:9

proceeding 7:11

proceedure 302:12

process 23:12

30:14 35:9 41:5

44:3 88:11 89:14

89:15,22 90:17

91:4 107:6 112:7

142:3 143:15

182:17 183:20

219:5 256:1,5

264:20 316:18

319:3 326:2,12

373:2,16 375:4,14

375:22 378:13

processes 91:13

produce 63:4

106:17 231:3

producers 118:18

producing 68:10

68:20

product 14:20 24:3

25:8 28:4 57:13

64:2,17 65:20

74:13,15 75:22

76:4 80:9,17 82:9

83:2,8 92:11,12

93:5 94:10,12

95:6 101:15,19,21

102:13 103:7

105:7,9,10 158:9

158:12 159:21

161:13 229:6

232:21 243:8

257:17 258:6

273:6 288:14

322:4,5 323:17

330:14 332:4

347:5 359:1

364:21 370:6

379:6

product's 83:2

production 67:10

154:7 342:9,20

productivity 217:5
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 411

products 7:4 8:5

15:14 25:1,2 42:2

45:4 56:17 62:14

62:18 68:1,12

70:1 81:17 82:8

86:13 88:18,21

89:3,11 91:11

92:19 97:9 108:16

139:16 158:3,8,17

173:10 200:22

282:10 324:16

360:20 367:3,4

377:21

professional

200:20 235:10

268:17,19 270:9

270:10,13 294:9

professionalism

203:4

profile 242:20

profit 213:13

program 29:19

32:22 33:6 35:12

38:4,9 42:5,10,11

43:19 62:8 67:1

68:1,6,8 71:12

93:19 95:5 98:22

99:18 112:19

181:1,4 182:4,6

184:2 185:17

216:14 265:16

277:13 292:10

322:11 372:4

380:1

programs 34:21

35:6,14,20 40:7

66:19 139:7 142:8

170:19 208:20,21

216:12 303:10

prohibit 100:18

319:7

prohibited 75:18

95:17 96:17,19

97:7,18 100:22

101:5 102:7,10

103:9,16,18,20

104:8,14

prohibiting 331:9

prohibitive 97:5

project 139:9

201:13 204:22

205:1 245:10,10

260:8

projected 201:10

projecting 199:15

projections 202:10

promise 345:20

promised 113:7

promulgate 7:3

promulgated 17:6

50:10 178:10

prone 133:9

propane 34:8

proper 79:16

124:17 231:10

properly 91:15

126:20 133:10

184:9 255:9

266:20 267:22

268:2

properties 223:15

proposal 254:22

295:7,7

proposals 180:13

proposed 81:12

185:4 369:7

proposing 354:21

protect 276:12

protected 111:10

111:11

Protection 134:3

prove 346:8

provide 25:12,18

28:22 42:6,13

71:14 72:4 93:12

97:2,13 101:14

109:1 131:19

151:17 183:1

200:4 217:15

231:8 232:13

284:13 297:8

298:5 350:10

provided 119:20

providing 329:7

provision 8:8 13:3

99:3,14 105:16

296:21 315:7

provisions 7:10,16

63:11 308:1

PSEs 293:5

public 7:9 14:4

32:1,2 38:11

41:12 42:7 69:20

70:16 80:4,6,7

94:6 373:8

publicly 32:6

publish 318:15

published 32:10

312:7

publishing 312:13

pull 17:6 242:19

263:16,18

pulled 155:1

235:18 253:22

338:13

pulling 264:20

269:8 342:20

pulls 194:20 264:8

pump 117:12,14,18

117:19 270:8

276:1

pumps 289:15

290:1

punch 257:2

346:15 356:2

punish 280:13

punishable 86:19

punishing 280:5

pup 133:6

purchase 25:8,15

119:6 218:3 291:2

purchased 34:7

206:15 255:6

323:16

purchaser 109:11

purchases 206:19

233:9

pure 75:22

purely 173:3

purpose 16:3 49:19

65:21 74:18,22

283:7 362:13

purposes 50:6

62:16,22 98:19

101:11 111:16

121:18 127:21

309:8 336:16

358:3 364:13

pursuant 338:16

pursue 47:9 96:13

108:12

pursued 108:7

push 112:5 335:21

pushed 308:16

put 9:18 10:4 13:13

24:5 25:19 28:10

30:2 33:8 55:3

70:15 72:1 75:7

78:22 79:17,18,20

118:22 119:3

124:8 134:9 135:2

138:17,21 141:9

142:2 150:14

154:10 155:11

158:19 175:13

179:7 180:1

181:17,22 182:6,7

184:6 189:7

195:17 196:9

198:9 202:16

208:17 212:1

216:6 223:4 225:2

228:1 245:7 255:1

265:14 269:5

272:20 293:5

295:19 305:1

316:22 330:19

331:11,12 332:4

334:15 342:15

345:21 351:10,18

351:22 358:11

367:2

puts 224:20 291:5

313:16

putting 39:15 55:4

127:9 128:7,14

137:2,7 169:14

203:9 277:22

280:15 283:3

293:22 297:17

313:16 316:18

336:12 362:18

puzzle 82:11 132:2

Q

QI 255:3,14,21

qualified 31:5

34:12

qualify 139:18

190:6 244:5

quality 5:5 255:15

255:22 370:15

quantities 280:18

quantity 205:19

quarter 266:9

quell 15:18

question 9:16

11:22 12:13 13:19

15:20 16:1 19:20

20:13 21:8 31:20

33:13 34:20 39:9

43:13,16 47:22

48:4 52:12 59:12

60:1,11,16,19

61:2,2,4,7,22

65:18 66:4 75:9

76:17 80:3 82:20

83:12 87:21 88:12

90:6 93:22 95:12

107:22 108:22

109:20 112:7,8

115:11,17,22

116:14 122:20

123:1 127:20

128:6 143:20

145:12 146:19

147:3,19 148:6

149:16 152:6,15

152:21 153:2,5,6

154:8 155:12

156:8,13 160:3

161:10,11,16

162:6,14,20

163:17 164:3

165:2,7,14,19

169:7,8,11,22
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 412

170:2,9,16 172:20

172:22 173:5

175:1,3,10 176:14

177:12,13 178:9

182:12 183:14

185:3 186:19

187:21,22 188:2

188:17 189:6

190:4,8,16 191:4

192:3 227:14

230:3 235:18

238:4,8 243:4

252:16 259:15

264:14,19 265:6,8

272:13 296:12

298:20,21 299:10

303:22 306:10

309:1 310:2,4,18

311:4,14,16

312:12 315:4

316:3,6,15 317:20

317:21 318:4,6

323:20 330:9

331:10 332:11

338:6,18 339:2

343:13 356:6

369:6

question's 278:11

questions 10:18

20:21 33:11 58:22

59:2,6 66:3 73:3

90:14 113:5 115:2

116:14 121:14,21

153:10 174:5

175:5 188:12

190:19 204:8

210:7 227:6

250:19 259:2

301:19 302:4,5

310:12 312:6,9,15

374:8

quick 33:12 79:14

96:18 103:13

129:12 258:10

289:13

quickly 282:21

364:7

quit 118:14 189:12

quite 58:19 70:7,11

238:21 287:6

326:13 328:2

365:1,6

quo 327:16

quota 367:18

quote 212:20

quotes 234:7 261:8

R

R 338:1

R-22 310:18 311:7

311:9,15

R&D 342:8

R22 114:19 115:8

118:15,19 119:10

119:16,17 120:1

121:15,16 122:2

122:20 123:13

124:12,14 125:20

128:9,14 132:2

143:10 144:2,6

151:1,5 152:6,8

153:14 155:13

156:9 157:16

158:3,8 159:7,9

159:18 160:9,11

186:11

R410A 158:8

186:12,21

rabbit 271:4

radar 136:7 224:1

277:10

rail 136:16

rainbow 55:18

raise 121:5

raised 185:13

raises 264:13

raising 52:9 59:2

ramifications

60:18 115:12

188:3,12

ran 193:3 203:5

209:7 267:5

Rand 1:13

range 18:15 19:5,6

26:12 35:7 55:1

90:21 157:22

162:10 165:8

169:13,15 179:21

247:17 300:21

301:2 315:21

317:15 321:7

322:4,9,17 324:13

331:14,14,15,17

332:3,11 333:1,4

334:4,13,15 335:1

336:3,11,13,21

337:17 338:1,7,10

338:17 342:10,18

343:4 344:5

345:22 348:18

351:18,21 352:15

352:18 354:11,12

354:13,14 355:4

355:12 356:18

359:22 367:1

377:5,19,22

378:17,20 379:7

380:22 381:1

ranges 359:20

rarely 219:7

262:21

ratable 163:8

rate 5:6 29:21

37:18 173:10,12

184:9 226:13

293:3 314:11

324:16 339:11

351:2

rate-pair 35:21

rated 117:19

181:11 304:17

309:20 311:15

315:6

rates 34:17 38:13

42:6 297:15

rating 8:16 17:19

22:11 69:4,10

72:16 119:16,19

157:17,18,20

161:16 163:12,13

163:18 164:9,20

166:15 172:5,12

172:14,14,15

173:3,12,22 174:7

174:8,17,18

175:13 176:2,2

177:1 179:1

181:21 183:6

184:12 255:11

300:21 308:9,11

309:15,21 310:2

311:9 313:5

315:19 318:6

332:7 335:22

336:10 337:5,9

338:15,19 352:7

353:7 354:18

356:4,19 358:1

359:4,6 362:20

ratings 110:9

157:18 165:8

166:4 182:3 308:2

309:9 335:6 338:8

338:11 342:10

356:12 362:16

378:1,22

ratio 72:17

Rawald 1:21 3:12

5:11 10:19,22

11:3,8 12:1,13

14:3,21 16:2 20:1

20:4,7,12 21:5,9

21:17 22:2,13,20

26:9,18 27:4,6

28:5,7,13,18 29:6

30:19 31:2 32:4

32:11,14 33:2,15

35:15 36:20 37:3

37:10,15 38:15,19

40:13 41:4,10

42:22 43:12 44:5

44:12 46:7 48:3

48:16 49:2,6,14

49:18 50:5,18,22

51:5,11,15 52:6,9

52:18 53:22 54:5

54:20 55:22 56:12

56:18 57:2,18

58:11,14 59:5,11

60:12,20 61:1,8

61:12,21 65:9,18

66:3,8,21 70:22

71:19 72:11,18

73:3,10,17 74:5,9

74:18 75:15 76:5

76:18 77:15,20

78:20 79:10 80:1

83:13,17 84:3,14

85:4,8,13,18

86:17 87:1,4,11

87:19,21 88:6,8

90:7,20 92:1,7,16

97:11,16,21 98:8

98:13,19 99:8,12

100:6,13,16

104:22 105:16

106:13,21 107:4

107:16,18 108:9

108:11 109:6,13

109:19 110:10,14

110:22 111:3,19

112:12,22 113:5

113:12 114:4

115:1,4 116:3,11

117:4,20 118:7

119:22 120:9,14

120:20 121:1,15

121:22 122:9,12

122:16 123:3,9,16

124:21 125:3,5

127:15,18 128:3

128:12,21 129:9

129:13 130:8,17

131:5,22 132:14

132:21 141:12

142:6,12 143:8

144:15 145:3,15

145:20 146:9,17

147:1,9,22 148:14

150:11,17,21

151:20 152:2,14

154:4 155:6 156:3

156:6,14,21 158:1

158:19 159:5

160:10,21 161:2,8

162:2,16 163:9,14
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 413

163:21 165:1,7,17

165:21 166:17,21

167:15 168:14

169:6,11,21

170:11,13 172:9

172:19 176:13

177:3,8,11,20

178:14,18 179:9

179:22 180:4

185:12 186:1,6,13

186:19 187:3,7,11

187:16 188:7,19

189:1 190:3,12,18

191:1,16,20,22

192:4 207:5 208:1

208:11 210:9,19

211:10,17,20

212:3,10 213:20

214:13,17 216:17

219:9,17 230:17

235:5 237:14

238:3 239:9,12,14

243:2 246:11

250:12,16 255:12

256:7,15,19,22

257:19 258:8

259:1 262:3,5,8

264:13,22 271:15

277:5 279:15

280:10 281:10,12

282:13 283:12

287:3 290:5

291:20 295:20

296:15 297:13

298:1,10,18

299:22 300:9

303:15,19 305:2

305:13,19 306:16

311:5,13 314:15

314:19 316:9

318:5,16 319:15

319:19 320:2

321:22 323:9

324:6,17 329:10

329:21 330:4,10

336:8 337:7,13,16

368:17 369:4

374:10,15 375:13

376:5,13,22 377:8

377:11 378:5

RAWLAD 311:22

Ray 1:14 29:8

33:13 36:20 236:7

258:8 291:20

292:7,18

Ray's 290:5

re-look 121:11

reach 242:18

reaching 276:12

294:3

react 188:5 282:20

372:12

reacted 282:16

reacting 193:19

reactionary 204:9

reactive 282:16,19

read 7:18 52:12

66:12 316:12,19

331:4

reading 317:14

reads 116:15 179:2

ready 62:3 192:13

205:7 246:7

316:20

real 79:14 96:18

103:13 124:16

131:9 258:14

291:18 372:15

realities 264:11

reality 27:12,20

80:2 240:20 271:8

330:21

realize 378:9

realized 9:10

really 22:22 26:5

36:1 37:6 38:17

39:2 44:14 46:19

51:22 67:3 73:13

76:15,17 79:2

102:15 103:2

115:6 117:22

127:5 129:17

133:20,21 136:4,6

136:9 139:7

148:20 149:18

155:11 160:2,12

164:18 165:7

167:18 176:15,20

185:4 195:14,21

196:8,21 199:8

205:3 206:4

208:15 209:17

211:1 214:3 222:1

229:3 230:4

231:19 233:5,10

238:19 239:4

249:12,13 253:13

254:11 262:12

276:2 279:16

284:21 286:4,7,11

286:17,21 306:22

307:3 313:11

324:5,19 327:15

338:18 341:2

347:12 351:8

353:22 365:15

369:20 373:15

374:12 375:1

381:5

reason 13:19 60:16

66:9 108:1 158:10

176:22 199:5

276:10 320:11

321:18 341:17

359:19

reasonably 155:10

reasoning 12:3

reasons 42:8 81:7

140:1 249:16

rebate 34:15 35:5

291:7

rebates 29:22

30:17,22 42:2

recall 159:2

receipt 206:16

receive 30:3 191:10

reclarify 300:1

recommend 243:17

258:17 260:8

recommended 17:4

record 71:18 86:21

113:16 191:5,7

192:8,16 207:9,20

210:10 266:19

301:16,17 316:22

319:1,18

record-keeping

204:15 206:6

207:6 250:21

recorded 301:20

records 82:6,9,13

82:16,21 83:3,10

94:22 97:2,15

101:14 106:7,10

106:17 107:17

110:16,17,20

112:9 207:21

210:14 211:4

240:22 251:2,4,14

251:17 273:3

286:5

recover 38:13

red 24:7 364:11

redacted 111:6,7

redefine 288:18

reduction 106:12

191:17

redundant 103:3

refer 5:18,21 16:18

reference 239:18

265:20

referenced 332:8

referred 12:4

referring 5:11

79:14 151:14

reflect 296:2

321:12

reflected 81:13

reflective 156:19

reflects 299:18

300:1

refresher 43:3

366:16

refrigerant 119:4,8

121:7 126:20

187:14 270:8

refrigeration 2:2

216:8 217:2

refrigerator 96:5

refused 85:19

reg 299:19 337:1

340:6

regard 13:22 15:22

regarding 8:10

24:3 44:22 45:12

46:16 81:17

103:10 110:6

regardless 153:14

155:13 187:10,13

187:14 304:18

315:20 317:15

regards 112:8

285:4 312:15

region 7:21 8:3,6

8:10,12 18:2 47:8

77:14 159:22

161:19 165:12

179:18 282:20

318:9 319:9 346:3

348:6

regional 1:3 6:13

7:3,12,14 11:6,16

11:17 18:13 19:3

39:12,20 44:17,22

45:3,17 47:4,12

49:19 50:6,9 52:3

53:9 61:22 75:17

75:20 77:5,18

98:1 99:3 104:4

105:17 109:7

116:2 117:13

121:12 126:6,14

128:16 129:21

131:14 152:9,12

161:17 162:22

164:4 173:5

187:20 296:22

302:16 309:4,11

309:16 327:17,21

342:13 347:17

366:2

regionally 108:3

122:19

regions 179:10

282:11
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 414

register 217:22

218:7,8 231:6

registered 218:2,8

registry 230:7

regs 7:15 183:16

300:2,20 315:7

318:19,22 319:2

319:15 331:16,18

336:5

regular 81:3 300:2

regularly 71:9

regulate 55:15

140:20

regulation 9:10

74:20 246:22

258:16 273:1

277:3,11 290:8

299:17,18

regulation's 299:13

regulations 21:13

39:16 53:6 74:21

80:21 81:16 82:10

84:18 96:20 276:1

276:4,6,16 321:11

321:12 327:5

regulatory 40:2

365:22

reiterating 115:3

related 90:14

134:19 273:6

relates 9:13 104:8

182:1

relating 221:21

relationship 30:10

37:7 41:6 211:15

211:16 218:9

220:20 229:12

248:22 249:20

253:4 326:13

relationships

223:12,14 233:16

relatively 152:21

167:12

relay 270:2

relayed 302:7

releasable 111:14

release 111:10,21

released 99:13

releasing 112:5

286:2

relevant 16:16 73:2

85:10 180:17

381:3

reliable 238:20

relied 82:3

relief 108:8,12

relies 92:9 228:22

reluctance 286:12

rely 23:12 68:22

81:21 90:2 216:4

216:5 218:19

231:2 244:3

relying 26:17

remain 357:14

remained 139:20

remarkably 176:15

remember 9:5,6

213:8

remind 6:14 7:22

reminded 31:20

reminding 191:2

remote 34:6

remove 166:5

167:3

removed 381:2

removing 167:14

renovation 194:16

rep 14:5

repair 127:13,14

189:4 190:1

193:15 194:16

repairable 195:14

repeat 43:16

121:18 211:12

replace 116:17

123:21 128:22

189:15 238:1

240:1 241:22

282:21,22

replacement

116:15 117:11

118:16 119:9

123:14 128:7,15

130:2 132:3,6,9

144:14 152:10

158:13 187:19

190:5,6 238:14

239:2 243:19

254:3 304:14

305:4 310:13

313:2

replacing 34:1

35:10 127:13

237:21

reply 87:3

report 88:10 97:7

110:2 137:3 273:8

reported 273:3

reporter 317:2

reporting 80:13

153:3

reports 74:11

88:15

represent 51:22

235:12 287:21

321:3

representation

157:3 322:12

332:3 361:1,6

representational

238:7

representations

322:13

representative

313:9

represented 256:9

288:2 306:22

315:21,22 317:16

represents 321:7

322:3

request 82:1 83:20

83:21 84:1 110:7

111:4,15 121:4,10

258:5 376:21

requesting 112:2

requests 110:20

require 71:13

78:11 181:8 255:3

356:10

required 8:14 9:22

28:22 68:11,15

82:5 84:22 88:20

89:1 94:19 129:2

153:13,22 156:13

254:2,3 311:19

312:3

requirement 19:13

75:5 79:15 82:4,7

82:12 83:7 86:22

88:21 89:10 141:3

146:6 153:7

171:10,10 174:15

252:12 318:10

requirements 16:6

35:22 91:7,20

101:19 131:21

191:4,8 236:13

274:19 288:12

318:7 332:5

345:21

requires 236:12

requiring 157:12

research 191:3

258:6 292:9

resentment 326:7

reserve 162:15

residences 193:14

residential 193:9

193:10 194:2

205:15 215:17,20

239:6,6 240:6

resonate 139:8

resource 326:1

resources 1:19

140:7 210:1

respect 26:13 37:5

276:22

responding 204:10

287:3

response 34:19

296:13 303:10

responses 12:21

responsibilities

51:4

responsibility

57:16 63:19 105:5

responsible 12:11

21:21 42:19 48:14

49:1 55:11 92:4

105:4,11 164:9,20

165:9 169:18

236:20

rest 196:4 271:3

restate 303:13

335:19 375:11

resubmit 191:19

result 52:1 138:3

307:2 374:2

resulting 315:19

317:14

results 44:16

resumed 113:17

192:17

retail 247:4,4

315:15 317:8

retailer 64:6,13

66:17,18

retailers 63:21 64:8

66:14,14 103:15

103:17,19

retain 82:6,8,12

107:9

retained 82:22

retaining 83:10

106:17

retention 86:22

106:7 191:6 192:6

192:8 207:9

210:10

rethink 295:12

retire 199:17

retro-fits 193:16

retroactively

371:14

return 220:15

returns 72:21

324:21

review 309:11

372:3

reviewing 256:6

revised 294:20

reward 146:11

rewarding 146:3

Rheem 1:19 19:19

59:8 73:13 127:5
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 415

226:3 247:10

262:11,14 307:13

314:7 353:11

rich 209:18

Rick 170:13

rid 44:17 140:11

rifle 273:20

right 5:1 11:8

13:14 14:3,21

16:2 20:7,12 21:5

22:2,7 24:10,14

26:17 27:2 28:7

32:3 33:2 36:10

38:15 40:2,13,18

41:4 46:7 49:2

51:5 52:2,18 57:2

58:6,13 60:12

61:2,12 66:9 69:1

71:2,5 72:18

76:18,22 78:11

79:19,20 80:8

83:16 84:3 85:8

87:1,10 88:8

89:11,21 92:1,10

94:15 96:14 99:8

100:18 105:16

106:20 109:1,20

110:22 111:3

115:4,20 116:11

117:20 120:3,18

120:20 121:5

122:9,12 126:1

127:18 128:3,20

131:13 135:2

141:12 142:12

145:2,20 147:9

155:1,7 158:22

160:18 161:1,8

162:16,20 163:11

167:20,22,22

168:17 169:3,10

170:10 171:22

177:10 179:2,20

183:13 184:7,15

185:6,8 187:16

188:7,16 192:18

200:8 203:10

205:1 208:1

211:10 212:14

214:19 216:18,21

219:9 232:13

233:19 234:14

239:9 248:18

252:9,9 254:18

256:11,15 257:13

257:17,20 261:5

265:2,4,4 267:17

270:13,20,22

271:7,15 272:14

274:6,21,22 275:2

277:5,18 280:16

281:21 284:13

290:12 291:2,6,20

292:17 294:3,6,7

296:19 298:1,18

299:16 301:20,21

306:6,8,11,16

309:6 311:21

318:12,16,17

324:17 327:18

328:20 329:1,13

330:2,10 331:10

331:21 333:3,11

333:19 334:1,5,18

335:2,13,15 336:6

336:8 337:7,13

338:2,12 340:16

341:12,15 342:22

351:16 352:19,22

359:20 360:7,18

361:4,15,18 364:1

365:3,4 369:13,16

377:3,13 380:13

rights 108:19

ringing 194:21

risk 123:7

road 140:16 215:16

216:20

rob 326:21 335:15

rocket 243:1

Rocky 1:22 115:18

115:18 116:13,20

117:7,9,9 118:6

118:10 129:14

130:9,15,19

131:12 132:13

156:1,5 181:14

182:16,22 183:10

183:13,22 265:7,7

283:9,12,13,13

287:8 303:12

318:18 319:2

331:16,20 332:2

332:14,21 333:9

333:19 334:6,11

334:18 335:2,14

345:18 346:17

347:9,14 357:11

357:16

role 57:7 76:13

143:14 275:16

374:17 375:3,12

375:17

roles 65:1

roll 294:12 378:12

roofs 293:22

room 1:8 5:7 138:2

138:21 149:18

169:5 202:12

270:19 291:15

rough 242:10

roughly 267:14

287:21 293:16

round 326:4

344:11

route 181:6 379:8

routine 105:22

106:10 238:22

routinely 104:3

105:15

ROY 2:19

rule 7:6,7 10:11,12

10:14,16 14:12,18

17:12 25:10,10

43:4 50:21 52:13

54:4 65:2 87:15

90:12 91:12

116:15 118:8

119:9 164:13

178:10,10 180:11

279:19 281:4

321:20 325:18

326:4 336:10

378:12

rules 7:7 51:3

64:21,22 80:18

134:4 135:15

152:19 183:7

203:16 278:6

run 139:4 154:15

167:19 168:6

169:2 266:17

268:5 293:10

318:7 379:2

running 138:5

168:7,8 204:9

210:16 219:19

345:7 364:5

runs 66:17 203:5

215:3

rural 2:13 35:2

S

S 169:1

Sachs 2:1 5:8 22:21

22:21 24:1 35:17

38:7,16 78:1 79:6

91:9 123:2,4,10

123:17 125:1,4,15

125:20 126:2,15

158:22 159:6

165:20 166:2,22

167:6,9,20 168:2

169:4,10 171:19

173:13 180:5

182:9,21 183:8,12

183:14 184:16

185:8 190:10,14

269:10 292:6,19

293:9 295:10,15

295:18 296:16

297:11,14 299:19

300:11 304:20

305:3,18,22 306:7

308:6,10 316:1,4

316:21 321:14

360:13 361:5

365:7 367:5,21

368:9,14,20

369:10,19 379:11

380:18 381:1

safe 297:7

safeguard 24:5

sale 67:11 108:15

171:5 180:9,14

181:9 221:14

235:2 236:2 273:6

282:20 346:11

sales 33:20 57:15

57:21 173:21

197:19,20 220:1

221:6,9,21 223:5

259:3 261:3 270:1

284:15 315:15

317:8 319:4,8,13

319:17 332:16

333:13,22 334:7

334:16,21 335:5

336:1,19 337:11

339:3,7 342:14

344:3 346:7

348:10,15 350:3

350:10,14 351:19

360:1,16 377:6,15

salesman 224:18

225:7

salesman's 224:19

salesperson 220:6

salute 293:18,21

sample 10:15

302:19

sanction 146:12

sanctioning 145:7

146:4

sand 345:1

satisfy 25:17 90:18

374:8

save 123:19 131:19

209:22 242:6

290:15 353:16

saves 131:15

savings 124:11

131:21 370:1

savvy 26:1 254:21

saw 244:16 359:6

saying 13:16 32:5
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 416

40:14 49:18 52:14

52:15,21 53:6

54:9 67:2 72:12

76:10 80:15 82:1

84:10,21 87:7,13

98:4 99:17 116:18

118:1 121:3

128:18 132:1

141:18,19 143:2

145:17 147:10,10

147:16 148:15

149:18 154:20

155:3 165:4

169:19 185:19

187:4 219:10,20

244:3,6 248:2

259:21,21 270:16

270:17 274:1

298:2,9,14,19

303:3 310:14

322:14 323:13

325:16 328:18

335:18 336:9

337:2 338:17

347:15 348:2

353:10 354:12

360:4 362:1

363:13

says 13:4 15:9

18:15 19:13,21

20:5 53:8 74:15

85:14 94:9 97:3

97:13 102:16

131:7 149:4

163:10 179:10,14

179:15 181:9,18

182:19 183:3

184:14,14 189:13

209:6 231:4 233:5

263:19 266:10

294:20 297:20

299:18 300:1

309:7,11,18

336:11 346:14,19

347:9,10 348:12

349:1,19 357:9,21

361:14

scale 72:9 279:3

324:4

scaled 77:1

scan 246:16

scare 269:20

scenario 243:8

322:16,17 355:15

355:18

scenarios 50:15

schedule 221:7,8

scheduling 239:8

scheme 27:14 63:7

122:4

schemes 40:3

school 233:17

Science 199:21

scientists 243:1

scope 75:9 77:16

105:19 147:12

169:21 176:14

177:10,12 208:4

SCOTT 1:16

screw 288:21 289:5

screwing 196:4

204:4

sealed 119:1

search 251:18

searchable 251:6

season 205:21

235:17

seat 4:4 192:22

second 25:9 112:7

129:15 160:18

163:3 224:22

233:3 269:6 309:1

311:3 315:3,4

345:7

secondary 120:8

seconds 369:3

secret 260:5

secretary 84:19

section 7:19,19

212:15,18

secure 249:18

secures 249:17

security 4:16 7:2

see 5:7 12:18 17:3,5

17:7 18:5 22:17

26:9 28:3,15

30:21 35:12 46:11

48:20 56:6 61:11

70:5 73:1 86:3,13

94:14 115:9 116:3

120:2 136:6

149:17 151:6

152:4 169:20

181:16 220:2

229:8 231:16,20

237:9 247:16

255:2 270:1

273:22 287:1

296:9 298:22

325:1,1,3 326:5

333:2 358:15,17

364:13 365:5

368:17 375:17

376:18,20

seeing 33:22 36:15

49:8

seek 56:15

seeking 45:2

seen 24:21 25:2

54:17

SEER 8:7,15 11:15

11:15 17:19 18:11

18:14 19:4,10,15

21:12 22:17 55:3

60:5,8 61:3,3,7

70:12,21 72:19,21

72:22 75:7 79:18

79:21 114:19,22

115:14 116:5,6,7

116:16,22 117:19

119:15,21 120:3,5

120:5 121:10

124:6,7,14 126:14

128:19 138:5

144:6,22 151:2

157:3 158:2,2,9

158:12,17 159:1

159:12,14,22

161:12,15,15,18

162:19 163:5,8

164:10 166:15

167:1 171:2 172:5

174:17 175:17

178:12 183:21,21

187:10 261:11

329:17 356:4

SEER-10 305:1,9

SEER-13 196:14

201:10

SEER-14 196:16

201:20 203:13,14

295:1 305:10

SEER-16 203:15

220:4

SEER-18 196:9

220:4

sees 226:13 266:7

segment 212:9,10

212:11 226:8

233:10

segregate 278:13

selected 194:4

315:13 317:6

selecting 194:5

selection 195:15

231:9

selective 248:12,14

self-certification

68:6

selfish 201:3

sell 64:3,18,19

65:16 67:8 95:10

102:19 104:2

117:1,16 122:8

139:9,15 171:15

172:16 174:5

195:6,8 206:3

238:20 243:14,18

283:16,19 285:21

285:22 288:3,9,13

288:14 291:13

314:13 332:22

343:5,9 346:3,8

346:20,21 361:17

seller 273:7

selling 56:17 65:21

67:12 103:1,5

133:20 139:16

144:13 159:19

165:10 174:2

200:21 283:14

289:2 337:20

seminars 216:6

217:2

send 33:4 37:8

81:22 354:16

sending 216:19

sense 16:10 48:13

52:3 64:21 79:1

80:2 100:13 108:2

149:17 188:8

264:14 284:21

366:6 373:9 375:8

sensibly 365:16

sensitive 40:15

56:4 67:14 71:7

sent 103:15

sentences 280:19

separate 160:22

185:15 363:4

366:5

separately 319:11

Separation 367:6

serial 110:21

207:14,19 218:12

251:8,18

serious 379:17

service 119:6

126:10,11 127:12

194:20 195:5

199:14 209:1

221:4 238:15,22

services 34:10

servicing 140:20

141:1

session 5:22 232:12

set 8:21 40:6 75:12

119:2 134:17

137:17 153:10

183:18 199:3

228:5 339:10

sets 134:16 165:15

249:14

settled 7:10

settlement 44:14
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 417

44:16,21 51:17

52:22

seven 215:21 274:1

shady 200:9

shaking 335:17

337:1 342:6

shaming 94:6

share 248:13,17

252:22 285:7

286:12 287:18

shared 285:11

294:19

sharing 207:22

sheet 4:21 369:17

sheet's 4:22

SHEPERD 296:19

297:19 298:7

Shepherd 2:2

28:21 29:5 83:11

83:15 98:2,11,18

99:1,11 100:5,12

108:6,6,10 145:11

145:16 146:8,13

146:18 147:2,17

148:1 150:3

shifting 225:19

shingle 269:5

ship 118:18 127:22

148:12 152:8

175:18 176:7,9

361:19,20,21

shipment 159:11

shipped 23:3

119:11 152:22

156:9 163:6

174:16 307:15

358:5

shipping 144:10,21

148:11 153:21

159:17 207:18

261:22

shock 125:2

shoot 135:18

shooting 274:3

shop 214:9 226:15

232:14 380:5

shops 380:7

short 36:6 93:20

202:15 204:11

329:11

shortage 199:12,16

265:20 266:2

show 5:3 33:6 62:4

80:17 120:4,5

225:11 234:10

237:10 252:9,10

252:12,19 260:19

269:17 322:9,20

332:6 333:1

352:18 377:4

378:2 381:4,5

showing 22:3,6

72:17 195:5 322:7

322:12

shown 252:8 336:3

355:11

showroom 25:4

showrooms 25:5

shows 19:12 20:22

43:18 162:10

164:11,13 172:11

179:21 205:6

233:19 298:14

322:5 327:7 354:6

shrank 241:17

SIC 268:8

side 209:4 234:17

273:22 284:6,7,17

294:2 334:13

369:22 370:1

sides 242:11

sign 4:22 5:1

237:10 266:13

signature 237:9

significance 163:11

significant 78:3

93:16 163:15

210:1 247:20

371:17

significantly

241:17,18

similar 69:21

142:20 258:12

365:10,17

similarly 15:9

simple 59:12 77:10

144:5 150:16

152:21 190:11

219:8 256:18,22

271:20 278:13

279:5 284:12

289:14,15 302:13

304:5 370:11,21

simpler 124:3

simplicity 254:12

299:10

simplified 190:7

simplify 299:11

simplifying 361:13

simply 72:3 152:10

180:21 183:18

257:18 294:20

370:22 380:16

381:2

Simultaneous 88:7

113:14 116:21

117:8 121:2

130:16 131:4

142:17 157:8

165:6 166:1,18

168:1 177:2 187:2

188:22 192:14

220:9 221:19

224:6 226:4

227:10 230:8

271:5 285:17

308:12 317:18

318:2 321:1 328:1

331:7 332:1 333:8

336:7 340:18

343:7 344:12

347:20 349:13

353:12 361:7

363:8,19 364:2

368:6,19 369:15

376:19 380:20

single 9:3 18:1

158:8 161:14

173:13,15 315:11

317:4 335:8

353:14 354:20

363:2

single-family

193:14

single-package

8:16 17:10

single-speed

335:20,22 337:10

337:18

single-stage 308:19

315:5

singular 319:12,13

sir 213:4

sit 58:7 192:21

231:13 275:1

277:17 323:20

site 79:8

sites 249:17 271:13

sitting 55:19

199:13 204:21

261:19 279:7

situation 20:15

25:6 52:2 82:16

158:13 202:17

217:18 224:15

225:13 226:11

253:9,10 286:9

304:14 313:2

335:4,11 345:12

355:2

situations 31:9

39:14 154:12,15

235:20,22 310:13

six 274:1 287:20

372:5

sizable 290:20

size 55:14 79:17,20

168:8,9,13 255:10

258:15 265:2

291:6 341:10

sized 261:4

sizes 205:5 365:17

sizing 202:10,11,12

208:8 261:11

sketch 106:4

skilled 240:16

skin 104:9

skip 236:3 315:2

skipped 235:10

sleep 370:10

372:19

sliced 136:18

slide 5:3,17 6:17

7:13 8:8,9 9:9

10:10 18:20,21

44:13 45:7 46:15

49:13 51:13 59:1

62:20 63:21 67:5

67:22 69:18 70:2

70:18 71:2 74:7

81:14,15 82:5

83:10 84:6 86:5,6

94:1 95:14 101:17

102:8 103:6,13,21

106:6,9 107:21

slides 84:14 85:6

sliding 72:9

slightly 77:1

slings 296:7

small 17:21 30:7

214:7 215:1,11

219:19 233:10

258:14,19,19

263:20 265:5

280:14 370:3

smaller 35:1 153:6

166:8,8,14 198:14

239:15 339:5

smart 266:6

smarter 266:6

Smith 206:10 208:9

Smith's 202:1

231:15

software 206:8,14

sold 8:6 83:6 94:12

95:1 96:3 115:15

116:10 117:2

123:22 164:15

170:20 178:21

179:7,10,17 218:6

285:5 310:12

312:4 318:8

324:11 352:5

368:3,5

solder 133:11
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 418

soldering 305:7

sole 51:20 65:10

solely 46:4

solution 130:4,7

143:7 183:2

327:10

solutions 180:19

solve 200:18

229:22 340:4

348:3

solved 55:16

148:18 256:20

solves 283:1,3

339:22 340:5

Solyndras 290:21

somebody 31:6,10

61:16 64:4,4,19

85:19 108:17

165:10 192:5

194:1,21 195:4

213:3 215:1 221:2

233:13 249:2

261:21 271:11,18

271:22 290:9

291:5 296:6

somebody's 233:19

somewhat 69:20

79:19 142:20

son 203:5 220:13

221:1 229:17

233:17

son's 205:1 215:7

soon 209:5

sorry 18:21,22

21:19 27:4 43:15

54:11 71:2 87:20

103:14 110:12,13

125:15 154:5

167:10 186:7

198:11 204:1

213:3 214:13

232:1 235:7

250:16 259:20

283:9 287:7

294:22 306:18

318:19 320:1

331:20 335:15

341:1

sort 25:8 39:7

52:19 74:11 99:14

107:6 114:14

140:15 143:2

228:4 254:17

296:2 320:11

325:20 326:5

355:9 361:9

372:14 374:22

sound 219:6 367:9

sounded 52:13

378:18

sounds 14:1 54:3

55:21 125:3 189:3

207:11 210:10

290:7

south 117:2 126:12

153:2 161:13

167:14 174:6,16

175:18,20 176:8

176:10 178:13,21

181:10 186:9

193:3 196:16

236:22 279:2

281:16,19 284:7

310:2 314:14

319:6 321:13,14

324:12 332:22

333:4 337:5,15

343:6,18,20 346:3

346:22 351:15,20

356:21 357:11,13

357:14,20 358:5

358:20 359:1,2,9

360:7,9 361:1

362:5 364:15

southeast 7:21 8:3

9:1

Southeastern

166:13

southern 114:20

115:15 117:17

144:21 159:18,20

161:19 162:10

166:13 365:20

367:7,8,15

southwest 8:10,12

9:1,2 261:20

346:4,22

span 298:13 360:3

spans 348:19

spare 213:19

speak 4:11 201:17

230:10,13 286:7,8

305:2 352:16

speaking 79:17

88:7 91:21 113:14

116:21 117:8

121:2 130:16

131:4 142:17

157:8 163:10

165:6 166:1,18

167:12 168:1

177:2 187:2

188:22 192:14

220:9 221:19

224:6 226:4

227:10 230:8

271:5 285:17

308:12 317:18

318:2 321:1 322:1

328:1 329:4 331:7

332:1 333:8 336:7

340:18 343:7

344:12 347:20

349:13 353:12

356:6 361:7 363:8

363:19 364:2

368:6,19 369:15

376:19 380:20

special 109:21

specific 89:10 99:6

133:21 180:15

199:5 247:6 315:7

354:11,14,17

specifically 19:21

96:17 161:13

339:1 366:18

specifications 78:9

194:2

specified 180:15

313:4

speculate 35:6

speed 158:9 167:11

189:16 315:11

317:4

spell 106:8

spend 38:2 103:11

200:3

spent 91:10 140:6

160:11 219:13,14

spiral 227:2

spirit 299:9 360:13

361:13

spit 325:10,10,20

spit-out 329:14

split 8:15,17,22 9:2

18:11 70:3 267:10

315:5,10 317:3

324:11 357:15

split-system 8:5

18:16 19:3 74:1

spokesperson

276:17

spot 141:4 327:6

364:6

spouse 215:2

spreadsheet 68:16

spreadsheets 263:8

spur 355:6

squares 24:7

stabbing 149:2

staff 29:11 31:6

210:16 214:20

216:3

stage 161:14

173:13,15 335:8

stakeholders 33:21

256:5 368:21

stamp 203:22

stand 152:4 198:10

274:11

standard 10:1

11:14,16,17 18:1

41:15 47:13 50:10

62:13 75:14 90:19

94:19 126:6,14

128:17,19 131:14

131:17 137:8

145:1 173:10,11

192:5 255:3,20,22

256:3 302:10,15

304:7,13,17

309:10,11 311:20

315:19,20 317:13

317:15 327:22

328:15 329:22

330:4 336:17

337:8 342:13,13

348:6 350:18

356:11,12 361:2

361:10 375:17

standards 1:3 6:14

6:19 7:3,12,15,20

9:15,18 10:6 11:5

11:7,13 15:2

18:13 19:3 30:18

39:12,22 40:4,19

42:3,5 44:18,22

45:4,17 47:4

49:19 50:7 52:3

53:9 62:1 67:18

68:12 75:17 77:5

77:18 90:12 93:8

93:9,18 98:1 99:3

99:4 102:14 104:4

105:18 116:2

117:13,14 119:13

121:6,9,13 122:19

129:21 152:10,12

161:18 173:5

187:20 292:14

296:22 300:3

304:2,10 309:16

309:18

standing 83:16,17

274:13

standpoint 24:4

129:16 323:14

340:6 347:4

349:16 364:4

Star 345:4

start 6:12 17:2

75:16 80:22 114:2

114:16 147:3

226:19 278:6

279:6
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 419

started 4:4 136:8

266:16 290:2

starting 365:8

378:17,19 379:8

starts 261:17

266:14 360:10

STAS 2:20

state 42:3 109:5

183:18

stated 45:14 48:1

313:17

statement 13:20

46:16 52:13 53:5

53:8 316:16

321:17

statements 45:8,9

45:10 324:8

states 8:1,3,12,14

18:4 114:20

115:16 117:17

164:16 268:10

statewide 236:18

statistically 93:16

status 327:16 373:6

statute 11:10 16:17

59:15 65:13 99:15

99:15 100:20,21

100:21 101:1

104:18 109:1,8

110:5 331:4

statutes 66:9

statutory 101:2

stay 57:3 125:20

steal 249:9 266:15

step 11:22 123:5

131:18 272:14

steps 236:4,4

Steve 1:20 51:22

116:4 168:14,16

170:8 184:6,21

185:18 188:11

230:18 232:10

234:8,16 235:16

244:19 257:22

275:6 286:14

326:10 327:14

374:21

Steve's 234:9

stick 51:9,16 94:14

94:20 139:1

sticks 51:11 263:12

274:9 292:1

stock 205:12,20

232:18 245:1,1,2

stocked 232:20

stocking 232:7

243:16

stocks 232:19

stop 46:19 102:4

261:21 274:2

stopped 73:6

133:20 233:12

240:13

stopping 146:7

store 138:6

stores 64:1

story 199:21 249:8

straight 284:13

straightforward

288:16 348:10

strange 355:10

strategy 366:8

street 272:1 274:1

284:4,6,7,17

strengthening

217:10

strictly 153:19

273:4

string 154:22

strive 370:19

strong 216:12

structures 37:18

struggle 277:7

326:16

stuck 149:22 209:3

299:12

studied 183:15

stuff 9:6 38:17 40:5

60:4 192:12

203:10 204:21

205:6,9 206:18

207:3 212:2 216:3

238:16 246:5

252:12 254:13

294:2 320:5 373:6

373:10 374:1

stumbled 365:6

stunned 136:4

subcontractors

240:11

subject 106:11

126:6,22 143:6

152:11 277:3

368:8 376:6

subjects 114:1

submissions 88:15

submit 68:18 75:22

81:2 91:22

submittal 129:22

submittals 88:10

submitting 76:14

92:4

subpoena 84:3,11

84:12,15,21 85:20

85:22 86:1,16

87:4,8,16 108:18

110:6 112:9

subpoenaed 113:1

subpoenaing

112:11

subpoenas 84:18

112:17

subs 241:5

subsidiary 156:12

subsidize 29:21

subsidized 42:6

substantial 252:17

253:18

successful 151:18

such-and-such

181:11

Sudafed 273:11,14

sudden 163:7 282:7

sued 7:8

suggest 276:11

suggested 13:21

184:18 326:5

suggesting 76:9

143:1 153:11

354:2 355:8

359:10

suggestion 366:9

suggests 124:16

359:3 366:8

summarize 345:19

summary 129:2,13

summer 91:12

206:4 234:2

summers 206:1,2

supplier 257:22

supplies 117:12

232:15

supply 1:20 29:14

29:20 116:5

118:19 170:9

184:22 246:5

support 75:20

125:19 140:11

215:12

supporting 136:1

supportive 295:9

370:19

supports 43:9

suppose 36:22

supposed 42:21

144:9 150:20

151:19 215:15

273:18 275:18,19

316:20 318:9

321:19

sure 19:15 23:9

26:14,19 29:12

31:14 42:19 44:11

50:22 54:3 57:8

59:17 60:20 72:12

74:9 75:8 80:9

89:17,20,22 91:6

95:2 107:16

110:10 111:14

114:10 145:15

148:16 149:21

157:4 165:19

176:18 177:14,16

178:8,16 185:2

201:16 204:2

205:16,18 217:18

218:17 222:7,12

237:8 241:20

248:8,15 249:1

250:2,5 251:10

254:5 256:8 257:5

257:15 260:12,13

272:5 287:5

288:11 290:4,17

296:5 303:3,14

322:3,21 326:18

334:3 358:3

367:18 375:16

surprise 271:2,4

surprised 26:3

surprising 85:15

Surrena 2:21 54:13

54:14,22 65:6,6

65:14 66:2 138:13

139:3 189:3

231:18 239:11,13

239:13,14,15

241:9 242:1

271:21,21 272:6

282:13,14,14

298:11,11

surround 23:3

survey 140:9,10

269:14

suspect 36:12

160:1 327:21

SW 1:9

sweet 93:20 141:4

swimming 275:22

symbol 377:5

system 8:15,21

18:11 34:3 70:3

115:20 119:1

125:11 131:16

132:4 134:14

135:2 137:18,20

138:5 167:13

171:3 172:17

175:21 182:20

183:3 187:15

189:5,9,16 190:1

190:2 206:8

222:17 224:3

248:21 263:16,21

270:8 302:17
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 420

304:9,18,19 307:2

315:5,10 317:4

323:3 338:9 339:2

358:13

systems 8:16,17,22

9:2 37:12 109:18

180:10 181:19

190:2 205:2

247:16 324:11

357:8,15

T

T 169:1

table 15:16 53:21

173:6 287:21

311:12 332:8

371:21

table's 76:6 100:11

105:20

tables 160:2

tag 184:13,14 279:2

281:16 294:14,20

348:12,18 349:19

tailor 77:3

tailored 97:18

take 5:19 9:15

27:16 47:14,19

48:1,8 62:4 66:14

87:12 100:7 123:7

125:10 134:17

138:1,20 171:13

173:5 197:1

208:22 229:21

234:7 237:8 242:1

249:16 292:8

298:17 301:6,9,12

301:14 303:7

338:21 347:5

349:5 355:4

takeaways 60:10

taken 53:4 148:10

218:22

takes 66:19 113:6

180:12 242:2

267:21 270:9,13

354:22

talk 5:22 12:14

14:11 16:19 20:16

48:7 51:12 56:16

58:7,20 61:15,17

74:20 79:1,11

81:8 91:3 96:16

101:8 104:12

105:18,22 106:1

106:22 107:3

115:7 131:8

137:10,14,14

138:11 143:6

149:6,13 155:14

155:16 156:4

160:17 161:4

176:18 177:5

178:5 180:8

183:20 192:20

204:13 212:16

223:9 236:9 245:8

261:14 265:9,17

268:1 275:7

279:19 292:5,5

295:15 299:4

300:20,21 301:5

309:15,17 324:20

325:2,3 376:15

talked 45:20 66:13

80:10 113:19

114:18 144:8

184:5 192:9

250:21 262:15

274:7,9 279:1

287:15 295:21

296:3 302:2 309:3

380:4

talking 6:12,15

33:14,18 41:17

62:6,17 74:10

91:18 92:21 93:2

94:3 101:8 113:22

118:4,7 132:15

134:16 141:6

142:21,22 143:9

160:4 165:21

167:3 180:2

186:10 233:7

235:5 250:22

268:4 281:22

283:11 284:15

290:14 301:9

335:8 345:16

349:15 353:1

354:8 371:20

377:20 378:8

379:17 380:12

talks 110:15 296:22

Tallahassee 279:7

target 112:16 239:7

targeting 112:18

taught 216:16

taxi 234:20,20

teach 6:7,9 242:22

tearing 134:16

tech 182:8 266:6

technical 199:10

217:3,10 242:13

technically 74:13

technician 194:20

199:16 219:2

220:12 221:5,8

226:12 231:12

235:4 236:19

241:11 274:12

technicians 195:6

217:8 241:8 242:8

264:2 266:3 268:3

technology 72:3

251:22

telephone 1:18

telescope 123:8

tell 15:16 16:7 53:2

68:13,19 77:13

81:21 94:11,17

95:7 105:1 109:16

114:6 130:11

151:7 160:18

161:3 197:4

199:12 202:21

242:5 259:15

260:7 264:4,6

273:13 288:4

324:18,18 376:7

376:14

telling 19:10 99:19

117:21 199:21

321:20 326:19

tells 17:19,20 18:14

19:12 23:5 256:17

257:22 329:17

361:16

temperature

167:18 168:5,12

ten 96:19 215:21

267:12,14 274:2

ten-year 372:6

tend 195:18 211:13

tendency 252:21

term 59:13,14 67:6

67:15 104:17

termination 94:8

terms 41:6 43:11

86:21 167:11

179:6 195:18

216:22 217:2

253:13 325:9

359:17 371:4,5

terrible 154:13

terribly 370:4

terrifies 271:7

test 34:13 62:13

86:6,12 88:9,12

88:14,17,18,19

89:3,5,8,14,18

92:11,19 93:2,6,7

93:14,15 97:9

101:15 102:1,3,10

119:20 120:2,4

165:2,3,3 166:4

171:9,13,13 172:1

172:3,6 175:9

302:11,18 304:3

304:10 305:15,20

306:8 307:5,14,20

308:1,15 309:5,6

309:12 311:18

313:3,8,14 314:9

314:10 315:17,20

317:11,14 322:8

322:19 323:2

325:11 329:15

330:7 338:16

340:10 344:3

345:22 349:18

353:7,14

tested 101:17

173:21 302:10,18

304:2,9,17 305:14

305:16,16,20

307:5,17 308:20

309:8 311:18

315:6,17 317:11

319:4,8,13 323:1

326:19 333:13

334:7,17,22 335:6

336:2 337:11

339:3,7 346:7

348:11,15 350:3

351:19 360:1,16

377:6,15

testing 69:7,14

81:10 86:8,8,9

92:21 93:11,19

101:16,22 102:7

162:20 163:11

262:6 306:2 330:6

332:17 336:15

377:21

testings 86:7

tests 88:9,14 92:22

315:13 317:6

thank 5:1 11:3

14:14 61:19 66:2

74:4 91:8 92:15

188:8 232:1

245:11 296:17

310:9 312:18

318:11,13 330:9

381:7

Thanks 237:18

that'd 279:5 375:1

375:6 376:22

theoretical 282:3

347:4

thermostats 242:15

thing 4:5,6 22:22

24:10,15 25:9

29:10 36:5 58:3

63:8 69:1 71:3

86:19 89:21 92:10
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 421

94:16 95:15 103:5

103:14 104:11

126:8 127:7

134:20 136:18

138:17 141:22

146:5 148:14

149:12 150:4,4

165:16,18 178:22

180:17,21 189:12

189:19 197:2

200:8 202:6,7

211:3 212:13

213:7 225:21

236:1 257:5

266:10 275:2

279:11 280:13

281:5 284:22

286:3 289:16,16

289:17,18 290:12

293:2,17 294:11

294:21 295:2

326:2 335:17

348:12 349:20

352:4 369:20

372:6,14 373:12

373:14

things 6:2 9:20

11:15 15:10 22:4

22:6 26:22 33:9

40:20 41:3,9

44:19 46:19 47:16

51:12 54:17,18

62:18 67:13,16,20

77:10 78:5 79:6

88:13,20 93:14

94:4,5 102:19

107:22 111:7,9,13

112:16 113:7,18

113:21 114:6

123:6 131:13

132:10 133:18

134:18 140:5,13

144:9 149:8,14

154:13,20 163:19

185:14 189:2

197:17 198:8,20

201:18,20 209:15

209:21 210:17

217:3,8 219:7,18

227:22 231:12

232:2 238:10

239:1 241:15

242:10 243:1

251:7 260:18

262:11 264:10

273:4 277:21

282:3 291:9 292:4

292:20 294:7

296:3 302:7 315:9

323:18 325:17

353:5 365:9

369:19 370:3,13

371:21 374:11

think 6:1 12:14,15

13:2,10,11,16

14:16 16:19 17:6

20:8,13,17,20

21:6 22:5 23:19

24:4 25:5 27:13

28:1,8,11,18,19

28:20 33:3,21

34:20 37:13,14

38:8 39:18 40:1

40:13 41:15 49:6

51:5,15 53:17

54:1 55:17 58:18

60:8 61:5,7,13

63:15 75:17,21

76:5 77:1 79:6

85:6 90:1,13 91:1

93:21 100:3 101:4

105:20,21 106:8

106:13 112:13

113:2,20 114:6,8

114:12,20 116:5

120:7 121:10,17

123:5 124:21

125:12,18 130:21

132:17 140:18

142:13,14,19

144:4 145:20

146:13,18 147:2

147:18,19 148:3

149:13 150:4,11

150:12,22 151:1

155:6,7,12,13,17

155:18 156:12,17

156:19 158:20

160:10,12 162:16

163:19 164:7,18

164:21 166:3

167:15 170:6

176:13,15,17,19

177:11 178:7

181:12 183:10,22

184:4,8 188:11,20

189:2 190:14,15

192:2,9 195:3,18

204:2 213:7,9

218:19 222:2

226:6,6 227:4

233:5 235:16

236:8 243:5

245:16 246:13,13

247:3,15 250:4,14

251:20,21 253:13

255:3,12 257:22

258:1,11 259:9

262:16 268:7,17

271:10 272:7,8,22

276:6,20 277:1,21

278:10 280:1,3,11

281:3,4,5 282:8

286:12,18,20

290:12,13 291:11

291:17 297:10,20

298:20 299:5,11

299:17,22 301:10

302:8 303:6

306:20 307:10

310:11 312:11

314:15 325:7,16

326:2,6 328:6,12

329:5 331:18

334:12,14 338:3,4

338:7 339:6,8,19

339:21 340:7

341:22,22 342:2

346:13 347:21

348:7 350:8,9

354:22 355:14,17

357:22 358:18

359:2,11 361:3,5

361:11 363:5

365:2,2,5 369:3

369:19 370:2,17

371:2,9,11,16,19

375:5 376:11

378:19,21 379:2,4

379:16 380:2,10

thinking 40:17

75:11 123:13

144:13 152:18

167:10,11 182:11

182:16 231:14

244:14 272:14

313:11 325:9

378:10

thinks 198:8

226:14 266:6

third 111:18 215:6

224:22 231:7

233:3

third-party 78:5

88:18 182:2

thoroughly 305:6

thought 13:1 40:11

54:2 58:9 132:16

139:10 156:15

164:6 169:8

178:19 182:11

186:3,10,18

190:19 213:2

254:6 263:7 267:7

310:9 313:19

335:16 341:2

366:20 367:2

368:16,20 374:6

thoughts 15:18

325:3

thousand 30:4

thousands 170:21

thread 293:11

threads 293:10

three 62:9 78:12

134:8,9 138:6

170:18 180:1

221:22 224:16

232:14 245:18

267:3 271:19,20

289:10 301:14

threshold 143:3

thresholds 344:18

thrilled 136:9

throw 277:20

throwing 138:7

thumbnail 106:4

THURSDAY 1:7

ticket 66:18 275:1

tied 49:20 99:6

227:15

tile 255:20

Tim 1:12 52:6,19

54:1 155:20 156:7

284:20 355:13

364:8 371:2

time 10:1 26:4

27:17 46:9 48:15

66:13 77:8 81:16

83:21 91:10

103:12 105:17

107:12 108:20

114:12 133:6,7

135:11 140:7

155:5 159:11

160:3,11 177:5

190:20,22 195:6,7

198:3 204:11

216:16 218:21

219:12,13,14

223:2,13,22

224:11 226:15,16

226:16 229:22

232:5,9 233:17

235:3 236:3

238:16 242:3

243:20 245:21

246:5 267:4

277:21 279:1

288:1 300:20

319:21 355:20

378:8

time-sensitive

151:3

timecard 219:3
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 422

timely 82:19 372:5

times 135:14

194:19 196:18,21

199:3 214:22

223:6 245:18

296:5 350:18

353:3,5

timing 314:22

title 255:18

toaster 380:2

today 4:9,14 20:16

61:2 83:9 98:13

100:1 103:22

104:6 116:15

117:1 130:9 155:8

156:10 158:11

161:14 188:12

241:4 242:19

245:6,7 274:9

289:21 294:17

305:11 313:22

314:1 318:20

321:10 323:7

327:14 335:3

339:10 346:18,20

348:21 349:16

350:12 351:22

363:13,22 366:3

366:19 368:16

375:5 381:4,7

today's 348:8

toes 123:6

told 65:10,11 94:17

99:15 102:22

103:4 112:2

tomorrow 325:20

tonight 216:16

tool 69:8 77:3,17

78:3,15,21 79:3

112:13 150:6

tools 77:21 78:5

80:19 86:2 147:14

148:4 196:2

266:21

top 303:11 336:21

351:10 362:9

top-notch 195:16

topic 80:2 301:5

tops 195:19

total 33:20 48:13

130:12

totally 275:14

294:13

touch 5:15 235:9

touched 57:14 60:4

tough 213:6,16

town 133:2 205:16

233:3 234:1,18

237:1,7 240:9

284:5,17

track 68:20 206:6

207:12 218:21

240:22

tracks 206:8

Trade 17:1

trademark 63:17

63:18

traditional 75:13

traditionally 12:4

traffic 280:18

trail 209:12

trained 199:9

364:22

training 216:4,12

216:19 266:22

Trane 118:13

transaction 232:8

transferring

182:13

transformation

142:9

transformers 205:9

transition 159:2,12

transitioned 158:7

translate 41:1

43:20 356:15

Transmitting

285:18

transparency

372:16,16

transparent 23:12

71:4

trap 296:2

treat 63:7,10

treats 14:18

Tri-charge 144:6

triangle 377:16,18

377:18 378:3

triangles 24:6

377:4 378:2

tried 132:9

trigger 147:5,20

triggered 146:15

150:8

triggering 67:16

triggers 141:2

146:21

trim 292:11

trip 220:15

troops 160:16

trouble 57:1

272:22 279:8

379:2

troubleshooting

258:2,3

truck 200:12 205:7

215:21 225:8

232:19,21 234:9

240:17 246:6

249:1 266:11,21

272:11 283:2

284:18

trucks 215:16

246:1 268:20

true 12:10 40:20

103:11 137:14

139:13 143:5

234:21 265:21

280:20 335:2

365:15,15 366:1

truly 105:18

trumps 326:14

truncated 366:22

trust 24:13 294:17

truth 189:18

313:19

try 30:6,15 37:19

38:17 42:19 61:16

137:20 143:21

161:9 201:17

203:21 205:11

213:17 221:7

224:11,17 249:11

276:11 291:16

380:9

trying 20:18 28:17

38:5 40:10 44:3

99:7 107:14

112:15 113:3

128:4 129:9

131:13 146:9

148:20 152:3,3

188:15 199:19,22

228:20 264:2

272:22 286:17,21

287:7,11 288:8

290:2,15 293:17

293:19 322:2

323:18 339:8

356:8 357:3 371:6

Tuesday 234:9

Tuesdays 6:5,6

tuned 201:8

turn 163:10 200:9

211:8 313:7 370:7

turning 16:22

92:20

turnover 265:10

267:9 268:7

269:19

turns 101:22,22

tweak 378:11

two 7:16 22:4 44:19

45:8,8 59:3 62:9

64:15 83:1,4

84:14 85:6 86:6

111:6 113:6

114:18 115:2

116:14 132:1,10

136:14 138:9

139:17 153:10

164:8 175:4,12

185:12,17 186:2

190:17 192:3

196:12 204:12

205:2 219:22

220:7 224:16

225:6 232:14

241:18 262:18,19

266:15 267:3

268:21 269:1,7

271:19,19 283:2

293:10 301:9

312:6 325:17

328:5 338:4

342:12 357:17,18

362:2,6 365:4,4

365:16 374:16

377:4

two-man 214:9

two-stage 335:4,8

TXV 125:13 126:19

TXVs 232:18

type 68:17 163:5

193:15 232:8

286:9 291:2

309:18 317:12

318:7

typed 324:19

types 40:6 309:11

315:16

typical 193:18

215:19 221:3

typically 23:2

112:16 213:12

225:14,18 251:6

323:15 344:17,20

345:16 365:21

U

U.S 1:1,21 2:9,10

2:12,15,20 85:21

87:13

U.S.C 7:6 46:9

ultimately 92:3

281:21

unable 122:22

uncased 228:10

uncertainty 46:18

uncle's 137:10

unclear 16:1

uncommon 232:3

247:15

undersized 359:5

understand 6:18

13:15 18:6,17
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 423

19:6 23:21 34:5

37:17 58:17 91:19

92:17 104:20

128:5 129:10

143:18 145:17

147:15 148:20

151:20 154:20

155:2,19 165:19

171:8,16,17

176:14 177:20

179:3 183:12

184:16 188:20

190:9 198:14

226:8 233:6

251:11,20 253:20

278:13 286:15

288:8,12 292:22

297:2 298:6

308:18 322:1

323:9,12 330:18

339:9,18 341:6

350:12 356:8

357:3 372:11

375:6 379:21

380:13

understanding

11:4,11 61:6

192:1 202:9

248:10 325:9

341:1 362:1 372:1

375:3

understands

304:11

Understood 295:20

296:15

underway 90:13

unduly 366:10

uneconomical

281:21

uneven 277:4

unfair 277:4

unheard 215:4

uninitiated 62:7

unit 19:9 21:12

22:1,12 23:20

31:18 47:6 48:12

58:2 70:9,9 93:7

96:4,6 116:7

118:16,22 119:2,3

119:16,21 120:2

123:13 124:5,8

126:19 127:8,10

127:13,14,22

128:7,13,15,22

134:18 135:5,20

135:22 137:5,15

138:17 141:5,7,14

152:22 157:6,22

159:18 160:8,9

163:5,5,5 164:12

164:14 166:9

171:15 172:2,3,17

174:6,9,15 175:11

175:13,18 176:1,4

176:7 178:12

181:18 182:14

184:13 186:12

189:14 190:5

194:9,12 198:6

202:13 206:12

207:14 208:13

209:7 218:6

219:15 228:1

259:17 270:4,5,20

272:19 285:13

291:6 295:1

302:14 304:6,15

305:5,7,10 306:3

307:14,19 308:3

309:19 311:15

313:1 314:8,12,14

315:14 317:7,9

323:20 332:6,13

332:15,16 333:21

334:8 335:3,4

337:10 339:5,11

343:2 349:2,8

350:9,9 351:18

352:4,12,13 353:2

353:6 354:11,13

354:14,18 359:21

361:20,20 367:14

374:5 379:1

unit's 17:21 282:19

342:8

United 164:15

268:9

units 18:16 23:1

29:12 30:2 47:3

65:15 69:14 96:2

96:4 115:21

118:14,18 119:10

119:17 122:8

133:13,19 134:1

136:5 138:6

139:22 140:12

144:6 153:21

154:2,6 156:9

159:14 175:12

180:1 183:19

186:9 189:18

198:16 204:20,20

204:20 221:22

227:18 230:15

246:4 260:16

262:18 289:17

291:14 302:9

304:1,12 306:22

309:8,12 310:12

310:16 311:9

315:17 319:12

353:3 358:4,10

359:22 362:2,7

unlicensed 270:14

unplanned 233:11

unprofessional

270:14

unscrupulous

254:18

unsurprising 267:3

unusual 250:6

unwilling 285:6

update 27:8

updated 256:4

upflow 228:10

244:20

upgrades 193:16

upload 76:9

upset 374:1

upwards 30:4 38:3

urban 35:5

urgency 188:16

USA 199:21

usage 339:6

use 4:14 19:16 25:1

29:21 58:19 64:3

64:5 69:7 71:5,8

72:19 77:16 78:4

80:20 84:17 86:2

86:2 89:5,17,18

92:22 102:18

134:14,16 140:16

141:9 150:5

166:16 168:5

172:3 217:14

227:11,12 228:14

230:14 232:4,11

239:18 272:10

273:16 297:2

325:21 343:19

350:17 365:12

379:20

useful 6:1 43:11,19

79:5

users 22:10

uses 264:5

usual 4:6 67:17

225:16

usually 4:15 21:20

25:4 31:13 81:20

194:3 207:19

215:1 217:1,3,4,9

217:20 231:8

232:20 233:20

270:22

utilities 1:15 30:9

35:4 36:4,13 42:7

276:18 289:2

utility 33:19 34:21

35:1,20 38:9,11

40:8 142:8 181:1

181:4 258:13

V

vain 296:4

valid 20:21 77:20

116:1 172:12,14

338:8,11,15,19

341:11 346:1

347:10 356:13

358:1,13 360:9

valuable 219:12

value 9:3 17:19

18:14 19:5,11

22:18 70:12,21

72:19 78:13

221:16 309:20

322:7 323:3

329:17 358:6

valuefor 311:15

valve 101:22 102:1

123:22 125:12,22

variable 298:13

varies 34:22 210:11

236:9

variety 245:22

various 78:4 80:19

336:15

vary 236:11

vast 23:20 288:20

velocity 370:3

vendor 12:6

vendors 252:4

venues 370:15

verb 142:7

verification 33:19

versa 365:21

versed 54:15

version 190:8

206:14 362:3,4

versions 362:3

versus 131:16

140:16 143:4

165:2 187:19

207:8 208:13

306:8 366:5

378:12

vetting 88:11 89:13

90:2

vice 365:21

view 10:3 14:6

20:18 57:19 74:2

84:8 85:15 94:22

95:20 98:5 99:20

144:1 164:3

232:12 265:10
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 424

294:18 329:2,13

330:20

viewed 297:7

viewing 329:5

views 16:3 325:10

329:12

violate 128:1

violates 104:3

violating 278:5

282:4,6

violation 45:17,22

47:9,10 59:9,10

59:14,16,20 90:11

95:19,21 96:15

105:22 106:1

148:13

violations 45:3

86:3

vis 374:17,17

visible 233:1

vividly 49:8

volume 130:13

173:21 211:8

315:15 317:8

319:4,8,17 332:16

333:13 334:7,17

334:22 335:5

336:1,19 337:11

339:4,7 342:14

346:7 348:11,15

349:18 350:3

351:19 360:1,16

377:6,15

voluntary 40:8

volunteered 5:12

369:5

VTC 378:4

W

wading 218:4

wag 330:15

wait 5:9 316:10

358:22

waited 125:1

waiting 132:18

222:22 237:15

250:13 290:5

waiver 143:1,1

371:18

waivers 180:9

371:20

Wal-Mart 189:17

walk 25:3 38:11

202:12 242:4

246:17 261:5

273:13 296:1

364:8

walk-in 14:17 15:1

15:4

walked 340:22

want 4:5,12 13:13

14:10,11 15:18

16:8 17:2 26:19

27:14 35:18 36:5

36:9 39:21 40:14

46:19 48:8 50:5

50:14 51:7 53:16

54:9 56:1,3 58:5,6

59:13,14 62:4

78:2 79:18 80:9

81:7,18 83:4

86:11,12 95:5

98:8 99:5,9 106:2

113:8,9,12,21

114:1,2,15 115:5

115:5 130:6 131:7

131:17 134:9,11

134:15 138:10

140:19 142:2

143:15,19 148:11

148:15 149:20

155:20 156:4

157:9 158:21

163:22 164:2

165:18 166:19,22

167:3,4 169:18

177:14,17,18

178:6,8 185:4,7

192:20,21 194:9

195:17,17 196:19

196:22 198:15,16

200:7 201:17

203:3,10,14 204:6

204:11,20 207:5,6

210:14 212:14

221:12 223:3,19

225:1,2 227:15

229:6,8,12 230:9

231:12,16 234:5

234:14 235:1

236:1,8 238:3

242:22 243:22

244:6 245:6 247:6

249:7 252:19

254:5,7,8 257:2

260:4 273:12

274:10 277:2,7,10

277:12 279:15

281:12 283:3

286:15 290:3

291:21 296:1

301:11 303:5

309:1 311:6 317:2

319:20 322:21

325:13,15,15

327:2 345:21

349:4 351:10

352:13,15 353:20

357:4,14,15,17,18

357:19 360:4,6,7

360:22 364:8

368:13 369:8,10

369:13 375:11

376:15,16,21

377:8 378:22

wanted 135:12,12

140:17 167:16

192:4 245:14

250:17 251:10

257:5,14 264:10

293:9 294:11

297:6 368:22

376:5

wanting 77:2 151:7

wants 32:16 155:16

178:4 275:17

292:5 381:7

warehouse 246:4

364:4

warnings 81:1,3

180:16

warranty 65:7

133:14,17 217:14

217:17,18,20

252:15,16,18

253:6,9 261:2

Washington 1:9

277:17

wasn't 106:15

178:16 287:5,6

313:10

watch 102:10

watched 23:1

watches 366:19

water 180:6,11,11

180:20 182:11

wattage 110:9

Waxman 131:7

way 9:17,18 22:6

23:6 25:17 49:21

55:21 68:4 72:7

74:21 75:19 76:2

76:22 77:3 80:8

80:15,16 89:6

90:1,8 92:17

94:14,15,17,20

95:20 100:1,2

102:4 109:9

122:18 124:4,18

128:5 140:4 144:4

145:6 176:10

198:12 200:10

209:17 221:8

226:6 244:16

246:13 247:3

254:21 256:7

262:5 281:1

283:21,22 285:10

291:13 292:15

299:13,15 307:1

308:18 310:19

313:17 326:19

327:7,14 328:7

339:9,9 344:16

348:20 350:11

358:12 360:19

363:16

ways 38:5 69:21

77:16 134:6

190:17 209:21

244:8,12 280:4

we'll 5:22 20:16

36:12 51:12 56:8

58:20 59:18 61:15

75:7 78:21 81:7,8

81:22 93:5,5,6,16

95:9 96:8,9,13,13

100:6 107:10

121:13 125:6,7

129:14 130:18

131:5 160:14

205:8,9 222:15

234:20 237:16

298:22 301:12

314:16 315:3

376:9

we're 6:11,12,14

7:11 9:22 12:14

16:11 17:15 27:12

30:7 34:5,9,11

36:1 38:4 40:10

41:2 42:5 44:2

46:6,22 49:18

52:20 53:2,6 54:9

55:20 62:11,17

67:14 79:17 81:20

82:1 89:12 90:20

91:11 93:11 95:18

97:14,21 99:16,17

103:11 105:13

112:2,18 114:10

116:18 118:7,9

130:5 131:12

132:14 141:6,11

141:14 142:14

143:9 144:8,10,21

146:5,19 149:21

152:5 160:4 164:1

165:4,10 174:2

177:15 185:16

186:10 193:11

196:15 197:15

198:12 199:1,11

199:15,18 200:16

201:7 203:9 205:7

212:6 221:18
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 425

222:8 223:17

229:4,17,20 233:1

233:2 239:7,8

240:15 241:3

246:4 249:4 257:6

258:2,16 272:21

279:12 287:11

289:4,18 290:4,8

290:14,15 299:14

301:4,13 311:5

318:14 322:15,15

325:7 328:15

330:4 332:4 335:8

336:22 338:16

340:11 344:20

345:16 347:22

348:14 364:16

365:2 368:15

370:4,9,21 371:13

371:19 372:21

376:14 379:2,16

379:17 380:3,12

we've 8:21 10:13

24:21 25:2 27:14

37:20 38:1 51:17

51:18 52:21,22

53:4,12,19 56:2

58:14 61:17 62:2

64:22 91:10 96:11

102:22 139:20

150:5 160:11

180:1 185:20

192:18 200:15,17

200:18 205:22

206:2,15,18

228:13 230:17

232:2 240:20

250:21,22 254:22

275:16 277:15

280:22 287:15

289:12 293:14

301:8 309:3

323:14 370:2

371:6

weakness 330:7

weapons 292:9

wear 46:11 51:20

weather 233:4

Web 271:13

website 22:17

228:19 346:15

355:7,16 356:2

websites 182:8

Wednesday 6:8

week 241:11

374:11,14,15

weekend 270:22

weeks 204:12

374:16

weigh 315:8

weighing 279:3,4

weight 371:11

weighted 159:11

weird 355:10

well-versed 164:1

went 113:16 118:15

119:2 160:1

189:13,14 192:16

240:1 254:9

259:12 291:9

301:16,16 363:18

weren't 136:11

wet 189:7

whatnot 28:16

wherewithal

135:13

white 2:3 3:16

56:10,13,20 57:5

109:15,16 132:19

132:22 137:2

139:2,5,6 193:1,1

204:17 207:17

208:6,14 210:18

211:5,11,18 212:1

212:5,11 214:7,16

214:19 216:21

217:16,22 218:17

219:16 220:10,17

221:18 222:4,7,12

222:15 223:1

224:4,10 226:1

227:2,8,13 228:7

230:9,13,19 231:2

231:11 234:5,21

235:3,7 236:11,17

238:2,5 241:8,10

242:2 243:10

244:8,11,15

248:15,18,20

250:2,5,8,14

253:15,19 256:12

260:15,16 262:4,7

268:11,13 270:15

285:1 343:8,17

344:8 352:16

358:14,18

who've 38:8

whoever's 346:14

wholesale 29:20,21

34:17 293:3

wholesaler 206:19

206:20 216:6

218:9 227:17

228:9 229:7 243:7

248:13 264:5

272:19 273:7

wholesaler's

234:12

wholesaler/contr...

229:2

wholesalers 207:2

216:5 218:19

248:22 249:19

250:1

wide 213:13

widely 13:11

210:11

wider 310:20,21

widget 256:14

width 354:6

wield 94:21

wife 215:2,3 263:10

263:13

wiggle 138:21

wildcard 71:7

wildcards 70:6

71:5,9

willfully 105:7

willing 149:5

270:18 271:11

272:2 325:2 363:3

363:13,14 369:2

willingness 291:12

Wiltshire 1:16

wind 182:12 184:19

349:17

window 138:6

189:17

windows 138:7

WINNGINHAM

158:6

WINNINGHAM

2:4 32:8,19

157:15 167:17,21

168:4,18,21

170:15 171:6,11

171:17,20 172:7

172:10 187:5,8,13

278:9 296:11

306:9,15,18

308:17 309:2

320:16,21 338:22

339:15,21 340:3,8

344:7,11,15 345:5

345:10,15 347:1

347:11,21 353:17

354:4 356:20

366:15 367:11,17

368:1

wise 204:17 205:8

216:4

wishes 35:8,9

wonder 75:19

328:22

wondered 186:14

wondering 213:21

267:7

word 30:20 59:20

64:10 190:17

361:6 371:10

words 33:22 158:19

212:21 220:15

227:22 249:15

260:7 263:3 303:8

303:9 310:18

312:13 313:7

350:14 356:13,17

work 6:8 16:9,12

29:17 42:12 56:8

101:12 129:1

133:5 160:14

193:2,15,15,22

196:4 200:4 201:7

213:4 214:2,4,10

214:22 215:12

229:3,13,14 231:3

238:12 239:6

241:5 245:18

248:5 256:18

269:5 290:10

293:19 294:1

303:7 310:14

327:4 368:18

371:17 373:13

374:22 375:20,21

376:1,1

workable 279:10

279:18

worked 209:16

worker 199:12

workforce 217:10

working 1:3,8 93:8

189:12 200:11

209:16 213:14

223:17 225:7

233:12 236:21

237:2 266:14

267:6 272:22

374:18,19

works 39:10 183:2

202:2 226:12

240:17 272:1

291:19 326:14

330:18

world 36:5 73:20

154:21 159:14

161:18 169:15

284:1 324:10

327:17

worried 370:4

worry 104:10 124:2

283:20

worse 312:1

worst 136:12 322:6

322:16 323:2
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 426

worth 138:9 217:9

232:21

wouldn't 26:2

28:16 40:21 56:14

56:14 102:3

144:10 147:11,12

241:21 279:10

313:5 321:21

322:20 356:13

379:10

Wow 271:1 316:1

wrapped 330:12

Wrightsoft 79:7

wring 166:10

write 219:7 303:2

writing 317:1

writings 331:11

written 10:4 85:9

94:8 120:18

299:13,16

wrong 56:17 92:11

123:6 126:18

130:11 142:14

143:12 149:12,17

162:11 195:10

229:13 291:12

321:21 324:14

337:2 354:19

X

X 189:11 213:5

221:10 244:6

261:15

XYZ 68:14,14

194:13 230:20

342:9

Y

Y 221:11 244:6

yadda 180:16,16,16

yeah 115:1 116:13

116:20 119:18

125:1,3 126:9

127:3 129:4,11

136:20 139:2

145:10,11 151:7

152:2 156:5 157:7

160:21 162:2

168:18 173:7

174:13 188:19

190:21 192:1

year 38:3 47:7

68:18 76:21 180:5

241:13 265:13

267:18 268:21,22

269:6,7,20 288:6

years 36:3 37:21

65:16 76:20 83:1

83:4,6 135:8

140:10,12 159:7

160:9 193:3

199:15 200:3

205:22 213:11

239:22 242:1

251:13 267:4,12

267:14,17,19

373:14

yellow 24:6 184:13

yesterday 5:12,13

20:13 27:6 38:20

43:6 54:12 57:14

60:7,9 65:3 80:10

96:17,21 100:17

114:19 115:3

121:17 169:9

192:10 257:7

369:6 371:16

yesterday's 113:19

York 6:6 226:3

289:9

young 112:20

242:18 263:9

Z

Z 244:6

zip 271:18

0

1

1 10:7 17:11 47:2,5

50:12 115:15

117:3 121:7 159:2

159:3 188:13

252:14

1,000 96:4

1,942,000 289:21

1.6 70:4

1.69 73:15

1.692 73:14

1.7 228:20

1/1/2015 60:19

114:20

1:08 192:17

10 124:6 159:14

199:15 205:19

213:10 215:22

226:19

10.9 18:3

10:24 113:16

10:49 113:17

100 92:8 269:3

341:19 370:4,8

100,000 199:16

288:7

106 85:6

11 8:17 18:3 120:17

124:14 159:12

11.7 8:19

11:00 113:13

11:55 192:16

113 3:14

12 61:3,6 106:9

179:21 283:18

284:3 346:19

12-SEER 307:13

307:21 308:2

12.1 8:18

120 245:11

123XYZ 251:9

13 11:14 19:11 61:3

61:6 114:19

115:13 116:5,6,16

116:22 117:18

119:14,15,21

120:5 121:9 124:7

126:12,16 144:5

158:9,12 159:1,12

160:8,9 161:15,15

162:11,18 163:4,8

163:18 164:14

165:10 171:2

174:17 176:9

178:12,19 184:14

228:6 245:2

293:16 298:16

307:15 308:5

318:8 324:15

332:11,13,17

333:16,17 334:5

335:15 339:14,16

341:8 346:20

352:1,15 357:11

358:6 362:21

363:18 368:4

377:13,15,16

381:3,4

13-A 333:18

13-SEER 255:5,7

263:3 283:19

310:3 314:8 319:3

319:5 323:20

327:15,20 347:5

366:18

13.0 175:13 314:10

13.2 359:8

13.5 378:2

13.7 351:9

13.8 334:5 342:17

342:20 344:3

345:13

130 294:3

14 1:7 8:7,15 9:1

11:15 19:14,16

21:4,12 46:9 55:3

60:5,8 61:6 72:20

72:21,21 79:21

114:22 116:7,9

120:2,5 126:14

128:19 138:4

144:22 151:1

158:2,2,17 159:22

160:18 161:3,12

161:18 163:19

164:10 165:13

167:1 174:4,8,17

175:16,17 176:9

178:12 183:21,21

184:15 201:12

220:4 228:6 245:3

279:4,6 293:16

298:16,17,21

306:3 307:18

318:9 323:21

324:12,16 332:21

333:16,20,20,21

337:15 342:15

343:9,18,19,20

344:20 346:5,8,21

347:6 348:19,20

351:4,7,21 352:14

357:12 358:6

359:10 360:4,10

362:17,20 363:17

366:18 368:3,4

14-13 294:5

14-inch 351:5

14-SEER 255:7,7

281:16 283:17

310:2 319:5 324:1

326:20 333:10,14

333:15,21 337:5,8

337:10 339:2,4

342:15 348:16

350:21 351:14

356:14 358:5

377:22 378:3

14.0 176:1,3 314:13

357:10,21

14.2 19:11 164:14

165:10 174:10,19

178:19 179:21

184:14 298:16

332:11,13 377:14

377:17

14.5 344:5 345:9,10

366:19 378:1

14.6 345:14

14.8 174:10

14.9 342:21

15 130:12 171:3

176:4 378:1,2

15-SEER 379:1

15.2 184:15 324:12

16 201:12 245:3

16-SEER 332:12

335:3
202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com

Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc.

Page 427

17 350:20 351:6,7

18 47:1,18

18-month 46:17

49:17

193 3:16

1975 6:20

1980 247:17

1st 47:8,12 156:12

2

2-ton 204:19

208:10,17,18

341:10

2.5-ton 341:10

342:16

2:50 301:16

20 17:1 35:7 36:3

37:21 130:12,22

197:11 205:19

239:22 284:17

20-some 373:2

20-year-old 137:7

200 202:22 215:12

215:15

200-some 287:16

200,000 268:8,9

269:3

2000 159:2

2006 159:3

2007 7:1 256:4

2008 206:10 240:11

2010 121:7 159:8

206:11 255:21

256:4

2011 12:21 14:4

184:18 251:1

254:10

2012 10:5 120:17

184:18

2014 1:7

2015 10:7 17:11

47:5,14 50:12

115:15 117:3

188:13 252:14

256:6

2016 47:2,8

2020 50:13

20th 159:3

21 18:9 350:20

351:6,7

22 75:7 134:13

140:8

23 159:4

23rd 159:4

25 266:7 269:19

250 288:7

26th 376:11,12

27th 376:12

28th 376:12

2nd 47:13

3

3 7:19

3-ton 202:13

204:20 208:9

227:18 228:11

244:20 248:21

341:9 342:15

350:17

3-ton's 202:14,14

3-tons 227:17

3:14 301:17

30 35:7 135:8 193:2

255:10 293:14

369:3

30-second 369:6

301 3:18

31st 47:6

4

4 3:11 368:12

4-ton 204:20 205:2

4:27 381:10

40 269:2 315:1

40,000 268:18

287:19

403.32 7:19

403.32(c)(3) 50:10

410 134:13,14

198:19

410A 116:8 118:15

140:8

42 7:6

42.97 110:13

4200 38:2

429 62:10,19

429.106 83:20

429.7 110:13,14

43 46:9

430 62:12,19

430.32 7:17

430.32(c)(4) 8:9

431 62:14,16

45 62:5

45,000 8:18,19,20

48/52 140:11

5

5 255:20,21

50 130:20 246:1

500 136:13

5291 46:9

6

6 74:7 288:5

60 130:20 238:13

269:2

60,000 268:18

6097/8/9 1:9

6295 7:6 99:4

6295(o) 16:6,14

6295(o)(6) 16:17

59:16

65 197:3 288:2

7

7 208:18 288:2

293:16

70 203:2 238:13

70,000-BTU 202:21

8

8 187:10 205:19

213:10 226:18

8-1/2 159:6

80% 143:5

9
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

428

Regional Standards Enforcement

Working Group Meeting

US DOE

08-14-14

Washington, DC