^ CD 

r^ 

364 

;;;rRARl'MENT OF 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA • ^i;j^f(-^JSEW 

+ + + + + 'Oil FEB-! P U:21 

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 

OFFICE OF HEARINGS 

+ + + + + 

HEARING 

+ + + + + 

RECEIVED 

DEC 2 0 20« 

HEAWNG DOCKET 

In the Matter of: 

SKYWEST AIRLINES, INC 

^ 

FAA Docket Nos. 

CP09NM0012 

2009NM060042 

DMS No. 

FAA-2009-0979 

Thursday, 

December 2, 2010 

U.S. Tax Court 

Wallace F. Bennett Federal Bldg. 

Courtroom 5223 

125 S. State Street 

Salt Lake City, Utah 84138 

The above-entitled matter came on 

for further hearing, pursuant to Recess, at 

9:00 a.m. 

BEFORE: 

RICHARD C. GOODWIN 

United States Administrative Law Judge 

U.S. Department of Transportation 

Office of Hearings, Room 5411 

400 Seventh Street, S.W. 

Washington, D.C. 20590 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
r^ 

365 

APPEARANCES: 

On behalf of the Complainant: 

SCOTT R. MORRIS, ESQ. 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Northwest Mountain Region 

Office of Regional Counsel 

1601 Lind Avenue, SW 

Renton, Washington 98057 

(425) 227-1417 

On behalf of the Respondent: 

r^ 

TODD C. EMERSON, ESQ. 

Director - Government & 

SkyWest Airlines 

444 South River Road 

St. George, Utah 84790 

(435) 634-3530 

Legal Affairs 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
366 

WITNESSES: 

Joan Peterson 

Jason Grain 

(recalled) 

CONTENTS 

DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS 

368 393 398 402 

405 413 

EXHIBITS: MARK RECD 

COMPLAINANT 

13 408 413 

RESPONDENT 

1 284 384 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
367 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

2 1 

22 

PROCEEDING S 

(9:0 6 a.m. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Counsel, are you 

ready to proceed: 

MR. EMERSON: Yes, Your Honor. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, You're 

going to call the witness then? 

MR. EMERSON: Yes 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. As we 

discussed yesterday, that's how we'll handle 

it. So you want to call the witness, please. 

MR. EMERSON: Yes. SkyWest calls 

Joan Peterson. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Raise your right 

hand. 

JOAN PETERSON, RESPONDENT'S WITNESS, SWORN 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Please be 

seated. Would you state your full name and 

spell your first and last name, please. 

THE WITNESS: Joan Peterson, J-oa-n, P-e-t-e-r-s-o-n. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Than k you . 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
368 

St 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Counsel. 

THE WITNESS: Say that again, 

JUDGE GOODWIN; I just said 

"Counsel." From time to time, Ms. Peterson, 

if we stop with testimony, it's so the court 

reporter can spell certain things. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Go ahead. 

MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, do you 

mind if I remain seated for the examination? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's fine. 

MR. EMERSON: Ms. Peterson, can 

you see me? 

THE WITNESS: I can, 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. EMERSON: 

Q 

Office. 

Ms. Peterson, where do you work? 

At the FAA — 

How long -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

•- SkyWest Certificate Management 

How long have you worked there? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
369 

r^ 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q 

Twenty years 

What are your job duties and 

responsibilities at the FAA? 

A Presently, I am the Air Crew 

Program Manager, which oversees check airmen 

and designated examiners at SkyWest and the 

training program. 

Q How long have you held that 

position? 

A Since about 2003. 

Q Is one of your job 

responsibilities to perform Element 

Performance Inspections? 

A Yes. 

Q How many of those have you 

performed over the course of your career? 

A I couldn't tell you that. 

Q Can you estimate? 

A Eight to ten, approximately. 

Q You've received training on how to 

perform an Element Performance Inspection? 

A Yes. 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
370 

r^ 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Do you feel competent and 

qualified to perform those? 

A Yes. 

Q From time to time, are you still 

called on to perform an Element Performance 

Inspection? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you do an Element Performance 

Inspection in February of 2009? 

Yes 

Q On or about February 10th? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell me what you recall 

about that Element Performance Inspection? 

What time did it begin? 

A Roughly about eight o'clock till 

around ten to 9:00. 

Q Where did it occur? 

A At the Salt Lake City Airport, 

west of the E concourses. 

Q Do you remember the spot or 

location? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
371 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A 

that. No, 

I don't remember the number of 

There's a map you'll see here of 

the Salt Lake International Airport. If you 

look closely, you'll see a red stickle note, 

a green stickle note. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Ms. Peterson, if 

you need to get up like me, if you need to go 

THE WITNESS: Well, I probably do. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I don't know about 

you, but even with glasses on I'm having 

trouble seeing the map. 

THE WITNESS: Now I need these 

other glasses. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Look at the 

map and then if you would go to the stand 

because -- the reason is the court reporter 

has difficulty picking up your voice when 

you're there. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm trying to 

find the E concourse. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
372 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

(Pause.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, you 

may want to move the map over closer so -- in 

case -- if you're going to refer to it again. 

See if you can do it without dropping it. 

Okay. Now, Mr. Emerson, you may 

repeat your question. 

BY MR. EMERSON: 

Q Ms. Peterson, do you remember what 

spot or location you performed your Element 

Performance Inspection on February 10th, 2009? 

A It was approximately in the area 

where the red the red sticker is there 

concourse? 

location? 

car. 

Q 

That would have been west of the E 

Yes. 

How did you arrive at that 

I drove over in the Government 

Did the Government car have 

markings on it that -• 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
373 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A Yes. 

would identify it as 

Government car? 

A Yes, it did. 

Q Okay. And just for process here, 

Ms. Peterson, go ahead and let me finish the 

question and then you can answer and that will 

help the court reporter keep it straight. 

You're smart enough to know the 

answers before I even finish, but you still 

have to let me finish. 

Did you see any other -- did you 

see any vehicles in that area other than 

airplanes being de-iced? 

A Yes. 

Q What did you see? 

A I saw a SkyWest van parked there 

Q Was there anybody in the van? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know who was in the van? 

A Tylor Lewis. 

also 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
374 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Did you know him by sight? 

A No. 

Q How did you come to know that 

Tylor Lewis was in that van? 

A I had -- when I first pulled up, I 

saw the van there. I went over and asked if 

where I was parked would be okay and he 

introduced himself at that time. 

Q Were -- did you physically walk 

over to his car or just --

A Yes. I did. 

Q You did. Any other exchange in 

that conversation? 

A Not in that conversation, no 

Q You simply asked if your location 

was okay, and why did you ask that question? 

A Well, I just wanted to make sure 

that I wasn't going to be in the way of any 

other vehicles driving around there. 

Q Okay. Why were you performing an 

EPI on February 10th? 

A It was assigned to me. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
375 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Were the conditions also favorable 

for an EPI? 

Yes 

What were the weather conditions 

like on the 10th? 

We had light snow and mist. 

Was snow accumulating on the 

ground; 

airplanes? 

Yes, it was 

Was it accumulating on the 

Yes 

Q Could you tell about how much was 

accumulating on the airplanes? 

A Just a very light amount. 

Q Was it enough to cover the 

markings on the airplane? 

A No. 

Q 

markings? 

You could still see paint and 

Yes 

Was it also raining? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
376 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A There was -- yes. 

Q Did you make observations then of 

de-icing operations performed by SkyWest 

Airlines on the 10th? 

A Yes. 

Q What did you observe? 

A I observed ten aircraft, of which 

six aircraft were de-iced from the wing root 

to the wing tip and the remaining were de-iced 

from the wing tip to the wing root. 

Q Did you take -- why didn't you 

take notice of the direction of the spray 

pattern? 

Well, I noticed one was one 

direction and then the next one was another 

direction, so that got my attention. 

Q Why? 

A It was different. 

Q Does it have any significance to 

you the direction of the -- of the application 

of the de-icing material? 

A Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
377 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Why? 

A Spraying de-icing fluid from the 

root to the tip could possibly allow fluid or 

allow ice and contaminants to come back into 

the wing root area. 

Q Were you familiar with Standard 

Practice 2800, which are the OpSpecs for 

SkyWest de-icing procedures? 

A Yes 

Q Did you believe that spraying root 

to tip violated the OpSpecs? 

A Say that again, 

Q Did you believe that spraying the 

de-icing material from root to tip was a 

violation of the SkyWest OpSpecs for de-icing 

protocol? 

A Well, 2800 states that they will 

spray from the root tip -- or from the wing 

tip to the root unless it's okayed by the PIC 

and the OpSpecs state that SkyWest will follow 

their de-icing procedures in their manual. 

Q Is that why you took special note 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
378 

r^ 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

of the root to tip de-ice application? 

Yes 

Q Did you have a radio with you that 

day? 

A Yes. 

Q Were you able to monitor the 

communications between the cockpit and the deicing crew? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ever hear a pilot in 

command order a deviation from the standard 

SkyWest de-icing protocols? 

A No. 

Q Did you have any further contact 

with Tylor Lewis that day? 

Yes 

What was the nature of that 

A 

contact? 

A At one point, he came over to my 

vehicle and asked for my name and address and 

phone number. 

Q Did you give it to him? 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
379 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A Yes, I did. 

Q Did you have any other 

communication with him? 

Not that I believe, so -- not that 

I recall 

Q Did he introduce himself to you? 

A Well, he did initially the first 

time that I went over to the vehicle. 

Q Did he tell you what he was doing? 

A No. 

Q He didn't tell you his job title? 

A No. 

Q He didn't tell you what his 

responsibilities that day were? 

A No. 

Q Had you ever met him before that 

day? 

A No. 

Q You don't know if he was a member 

of management 

Q 

No, 

-- or a front-line worker? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
380 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A No. 

Did he give you his contact 

information? 

A 

the job? 

Q 

No. 

Did he tell you that he was new to 

No. 

Do you remember any other 

interaction with him that day? 

No. 

So now you've had two 

interactions. When you first got there, you 

wanted to check to make sure you weren't in 

the way and he said, You are fine. And then 

we're now talking about a second interaction 

with Mr. Lewis. About how long between those 

two interactions? 

A I don't recall 

Q Can you estimate? 

A Twenty minutes maybe. I don't 

really recall. I don't know. 

Q Okay. Some time lapsed because 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
381 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

there's two different contacts with Mr. Lewis; 

is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Were you able to monitor de-icing 

activities between those two interactions with 

Mr. Lewis? 

A Yes. 

Q In that time, did you view what 

you believed to be deviations from the deicing OpSpecs? 

A I wasn't sure there was a 

deviation at that time. I just noticed that 

it was different than what I had recalled 

being in their manual. 

Q Okay. And the differences that 

you noticed, you had seen those differences by 

the time that Mr. Lewis introduced himself to 

you and asked for your contact information? 

Yes 

Q Did you inform Mr. Lewis at the 

time tha t you had observed these deviations? 

No 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
382 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q About how long did you continue to 

observe SkyWest de-icing? 

A Approximately somewhere close to 

nine -- nine o'clock. 

Q So about 45 minutes? 

A Yes, approximately. 

Q Then what happened? 

A I went back to the office. 

Q Would you take that blue binder 

that's in front of you, the smaller one, and 

flip to Tab 1. Do you recognize this 

document? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Yes 

Can you tell us what it is? 

It's an inspector's statement 

Who created this statement? 

I did. 

Is that your signature on it? 

Yes 

Q And did you create it on February 

10th, 2009? 

I actually typed this on February 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
383 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

17th. I dated it February 10th because that 

was the date of my observation. 

Q There's two dates there, so the --

on the top, it says on the morning of February 

10th. You're talking about when it happened. 

A Yes. 

And then and then your 

handwriting on the bottom is the 10th as well? 

Q 

Yes 

But the document itself was 

created on the 17th. 

Yes 

Q Do you know that -- that other 

inspectors from your office observed similar 

deviations on February 17th? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that why you created this 

document on the 17th? 

No I created this document on 

the 17th because that was roughly about the 

time that I became aware -- I was able to get 

back into the manual and verify that -- the 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
384 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

procedures and that I became aware that there 

was a deviation from those procedures. 

Q The last line -- well, before we 

get into the statement --

MR. EMERSON: Your Honor, SkyWest 

offers Tab 1 as Respondent's Exhibit 1. 

MR. MORRIS: No objections. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 1 for 

identification is received into evidence as 

Respondent's 1. 

MR. EMERSON: Thank you. 

BY MR. EMERSON: 

Q 

statement 

Please read the last line of your 

A "I informed the Principal 

Operations Inspector that de-icing and antiicing crews were not following procedures 

outlined in their manual regarding spray 

patterns and techniques." 

Q Who was the Principal Operations 

Inspector on February 10th? 

A Noal Johnston. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
385 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q How did you inform him of your 

observations? 

A I verbally told him on the 10th 

when I came back to the office that I had 

observed some procedures I didn't recall and 

that I would look into it. And on the 17th 

when I had a chance to get back into the 

manual, made that determination that the 

procedures on those six aircraft were contrary 

to those outlined in the manual. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: What was the name 

of the gentleman that you verbally told? 

THE WITNESS: Noal Johnston. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: And who is he? 

THE WITNESS: 

Operations Inspector. 

The Principal 

JUDGE GOODWIN: For? 

THE WITNESS: For the SkyWest 

Certificate Management Office. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: So was he a FAA 

employee? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
386 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, 

BY MR. EMERSON; 

Q Can you spell Noal Johnston's 

name, please? 

A N-o-a-1, J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n. 

Q Was Mr. Johnston your boss? 

A No. 

Q Who was your boss? Who was your 

direct supervisor maybe I should say? 

A We had an acting supervisor at 

that time. I believe it was Paul Ramirez. 

Q Did you also inform Paul Ramirez 

of your observations? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q What did you tell Mr. Ramirez? 

A Exactly what I told Noal, that I 

had observed some procedures different than 

what I had recalled and I was going to look 

into it. 

Q You informed him that you saw --

JUDGE GOODWIN; Hold on. Ms 

Peterson, I know this sounds lik e it' s turning 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
387 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

into a spelling bee, but Paul is P-a-u-1. 

Would you --

THE WITNESS: P-a-u-1, Ramirez, 

R-a-m-i-r-e-z. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. 

BY MR. EMERSON: 

Q Did you tell Mr. Ramirez that you 

had seen six SkyWest aircraft being de-iced 

root to tip on the morning of February 10th? 

A I don't recall if I told him how 

many, but I do recall that I told him I saw 

some airplanes that were de-iced differently 

than what I had recalled. 

Q Did you view any airplanes being -

- where the de-icing procedures started on the 

right wing instead of the left wing? 

A None on the right wing. 

Q We -- I'll call it a deviation for 

now, if you're comfortable with that. The 

only deviation that you saw was de-icing 

materials being applied root to tip six times 

on the morning of the 10th? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
388 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Yes 

Q How did Mr. Ramirez respond to the 

information that you offered him? 

A He said okay. I told him I would 

look into it and it was a very busy morning 

when I got back into the office. I recall 

there being a lot of chaos. We had acting 

positions and he was fine with what I had 

stated to him, 

Q Do you know at the time whether 

Mr. Ramirez -- he was your supervisor; is that 

right? -- at the time. 

A An acting supervisor. 

Q Was he also Jason Grain's acting 

supervisor? 

I don't know that 

How about Ben Blauer's acting 

supervisor? 

A I don't know that. 

Q Do you know who their supervisors 

were on February 10th, 2009? 

A No. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W, 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
389 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Where does Noal Johnston fit into 

the chain of command at your office? 

A Well, he's the Principal Ops. 

Inspector for the certificate. 

Q Do you have an understanding what 

his job duties and responsibilities are? 

A For the most part. 

Q What are those? 

A To oversee everything connected 

with the certificate. And if we need guidance 

on anything, he signs letters, he has 

communications with the company, telecons. 

Q Do you ever have communications 

with the company? 

A Yes. 

Q What are the nature of your 

when I said the company, I mean SkyWest 

Airlines 

A 

Q 

Yes 

What's the nature of your 

communications with the company? 

Mainly with the Director of 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
390 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Training, overseeing check airmen and examiner 

issues. 

Q Is it your practice to notify the 

company when you see potential violations of 

the FARs or OpSpecs? 

A Yes. 

Q Does sometimes Mr. Johnston make 

those contacts as well with the company to 

inform of potential violations? 

A Sometimes. 

Q Why did you tell Mr. Johnston 

about the discrepancies that you had seen on 

February 10th? 

A Why did I tell him that? 

Q Yes. 

A Because that's what I observed and 

I had intentions of researching the manual to 

see if in fact it was a deviation from those 

procedures. 

Q Do you have a responsibility to 

report that to him? 

A Well, I feel an obligation to do 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
391 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that. 

Q I'm just interested in why you 

informed him. You have a direct report, your 

boss, Mr. Ramirez. I understand why you would 

inform him of that. What I'm asking is there 

a protocol or procedure in your office where 

the POI is made aware of variations --

A Well --

Q -- that the inspectors see as they 

do surveillance? 

A Well, we want to make the POI 

aware of issues going on within the 

certificate. 

Q And then do you know what the POI 

does with that information once it's received? 

A I don't always know that answer. 

No . I don' t know. 

Q You didn't notify anybody at 

SkyWest Airlines on the 10th of the deviations 

that you observed in the de-icing procedures, 

did you? 

A No. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
392 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Do you know if Mr. Johnston 

informed anybody at SkyWest on the 10th? 

A I don't believe that he did. 

A 

How about Mr. Ramirez? 

I don't believe he did either 

Q Do you know when the CMO first 

gave notice to SkyWest of the deviations it 

was observing and could potentially be 

violations? 

A It was around the 17th, 

Q Are you familiar with Order 

2150.3B? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us generally what 

that order is? 

A The Compliance and Enforcement 

Manual. 

Q And is that something that FAA 

inspectors are trained on? 

A Yes. 

Q Were you traine d on the 

Enforcement and Compliance Manual? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
393 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A Yes. 

Q Do you believe you're required to 

follow Order 2150.3B? 

A Yes. 

(Pause.) 

MR. EMERSON: 

questions. Your Honor 

No further 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Morris. 

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Inspector Peterson, I just have a 

couple follow-up questions here. So you go to 

the airport. You see observations. And you 

come back on the 10th because you see some 

possible discrepancies when you get back to 

your office; is that a quick summary? 

A Yes, 

Q And then on the afternoon of the 

10th -- and I'm not going to get into details 

-- you received notification of a personal 

tragedy; is that correct? 

Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
394 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q And because of that and other 

personal tragedies that are happening during 

that time period, you were basically out of 

the office from the 10th until -- you may be 

in and out, but you were pretty much out of 

the office until the 17th; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Now, on the 10th, because 

of these other matters, you had accumulated a 

large amount of work on your desk when you did 

come back in the office in February; is that 

correct? 

A Yes. 

Q So your focus was not only 

performing your EPIs but getting caught up on 

all this additional work; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And in your conversations 

with your managers, was that more of a 

passing. Hey, I saw these deviations. I'll 

get into this later? 

A Say that again. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
395 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Your conversations with Noal 

Johnston and Paul Ramirez, when you told them 

that you had observed things that were 

different than you had thought you had -- that 

should have been done, is it the practice at 

the CMO then for the inspector who observes 

this to actually follow through and analyze it 

to determine whether or not there's a 

violation? 

Yes. 

Q Okay. And once there's a 

violation, is that when you go to your manager 

and your -- or the POI and say. Okay, now I 

want to open up an EIR here because I think 

I've got a violation now? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And as part of our process, 

the formal notification that goes to the 

company of a possible violation, is that 

submitted -- something called an LOI or letter 

of investigation? 

A Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
396 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Okay. So there is a procedure to 

notify the company during the investigative 

process that there is a potential violation? 

A Yes. 

Q And part of the LOI -- the reason 

for the LOI is to get a response from the 

company because they may have some additional 

salient facts where there may not in fact be 

a violation? 

A Yes 

Q Okay. And to be clear, at the 

10th, prior to departure on the -- you left 

the office for this personal matter in the 

afternoon of the 10th; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Is it fair to say you did not get 

a chance to determine whether or not an actual 

violation had occurred on the 10th? 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay. You knew that there was --

you had observed something that was different 

than what you thought it should have been, but 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
397 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

you were not sure that there was a violation? 

Q 

That is correct 

Okay. And getting to I believe 

it's -- is it Tab A, Mr. Emerson? 

MR. EMERSON: Yes -- 1. 

MR. MORRIS: Tab 1 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Respondent's 1 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Respondent' s 1, your agent 

statement, this is a statement you said you 

had prepared on the 17th? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Now, on the bottom here, 

it's dated the 10th, though. Can you tell me 

again why that -- why that is? 

A Well, I dated it the 10th because 

that was the date of the observations. 

Q Okay. 

A That was my error. I should have 

dated that the 10th -- or the 17th. On the 

17th, when I became aware after reviewing the 

manual that the procedures were contrary to 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
398 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the manual, I did inform the Principal Ops. 

Inspector that those procedures were not in 

their manual. 

Okay, So you filled this out 

after you talked to the POI on the 17th and 

said. Hey, I've got a problem here? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. And just to be clear, when 

you were at the tarmac and even up through --

until the 17th, you did not know that what you 

observed was a violation? 

A That's correct. 

MR. MORRIS: Nothing further, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any redirect based 

on the questions from Counsel? 

MR. EMERSON: Yes. 

REDIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. EMERSON: 

Q Ms. Peterson, Mr. Morris asked you 

a question about your absence and that that 

was due to some personal family tragedy. 

Yes. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
399 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Did you make Mr. Ramirez or Mr. 

Johnston aware of the fact that you were 

suffering personal tragedy that was gonna take 

you away from the office? 

A Yes, I did. 

10th? 

Did you inform them of that on the 

Yes, I did. 

Q Did they understand you would be 

doing no work on the 10th at least? 

A Yes. 

Q And likely for the rest of the 

week? 

I don' t know what they were 

thinking there. I -- I told them I would get 

to this as soon as I could. I had a lot of 

issues going on in my life at that time and I 

didn't get back to this case or to reviewing 

that manual until the 17th. 

Q But you gave them notice that you 

would be doing no work on the deviations that 

you had just observed due to this personal 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISUND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
400 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

tragedy' 

A I told them I would look into this 

just as soon as I could, 

Q But that certainly wasn't going to 

be on the 10th. 

A No. 

Q Or the 11th? 

A I had planned to get to it just as 

soon as I could. It was the 17th before I 

could get back to it, 

Q Were your -- was Mr, Ramirez aware 

then that you were not in the office on the 

11th? 

A I don't know that, 

Q Did you -- well, on the days you 

missed, it sounds like you missed about seven 

days of work? 

A I was in and out of the office. I 

was not focused on -- on work when I was in 

the office. I had a number of occurrences 

going on in my life that had me distracted. 

Q I understand, Ms, Peterson. And I 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
401 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

am not going to ask you about those. But I am 

interested on whether your supervisors had 

notice that you would be doing no work because 

of those tragedies at least in the near 

future? 

A I'm sure they were. I told them I 

would let them know just as soon as I found 

out what I eventually had come up with. 

Q You gave them that notice so that 

they would know that you wouldn't be around to 

do the work that would be assigned to you that 

week; is that right? 

Probably. 

Sure Have the opportunity to 

manage the caseload in your absence? 

A My case -- my workload sat on my 

desk until I -- till I returned. 

Q So your caseload and work was not, 

as far as you know, redistributed or assigned 

to other agents in --

A No. 

Q -- your absence? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
402 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A No. 

Q You said you were in and out of 

the office that week. Did you ever spend one 

full day at the CMO between --

I did. 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

the 10th and the 17th? 

I did. 

Which day was that? 

I don't recall 

MR. EMERSON: That's all. Thank 

THE WITNESS: Okay, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: That's all? 

MR. MORRIS: No, sir. I have some 

follow-on based on those questions 

you. 

questions. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just based on the 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir 

RECROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MORRIS: 

Q Dealing with the supervisors, the 

supervisors then didn't have your statement 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
403 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

about what you observed until the 17th; is 

that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q All they had was some generalities 

that you had --

MR. EMERSON: Objection. Leading. 

BY MR. MORRIS 

-- noticed some discrepancies, 

MR. MORRIS: I'm crossing. Had 

some discrepancies. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, but it's 

also beyond the scope. She's testified 

repeatedly that she wrote the statement on the 

17th, dated it the 10th, and it reflected what 

she -- the information that she had concluded 

after doing an investigation. 

MR. MORRIS: Well, let me rephrase 

it this way. Your Honor. 

BY MR, MORRIS: 

Q Prior to the 17th, would your 

supervisors have any idea as to the 

discrepancies that you observed back on the 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
404 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

10th? 

A No, 

Okay, 

MR. EMERSON: Well, Ms. Peterson, 

that can't be true. 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Well, that's 

the Court's heard enough. We're going over 

ground that we've plowed before. Ms 

Peterson, thank you for coming in. I'm going 

to excuse the witness. I'm going to instruct 

you, Ms. Peterson, not to discuss your 

testimony with anybody prior to the conclusion 

of the hearing. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Thank you. Unless 

anybody has reason for her to stay. 

MR. MORRIS: No, sir. 

(The witness was excused.) 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you have any --

anybody have any rebuttal or --

MR. MORRIS: Do you have any more? 

MR. EMERSON: No . I don' t have 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
405 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

any further witnesses. Your Honor, 

MR, 

rebuttal, sir. 

MORRIS: have short 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Okay. Ms. 

Peterson's still in the courtroom. She 

doesn't have to stay unless she wants to if 

she's got --

MR. MORRIS: We're her ride, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, okay. That 

will teach her. All right. 

MR. MORRIS: I recall Inspector 

Grain. 

JASON GRAIN, COMPLAINANT'S WITNESS, 

PREVIOUSLY SWORN 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Inspector Grain, 

I'll remind you that you're still under oath, 

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank 

you. 

DIRECT EXAMINATION 

BY MR. MORRIS 

Q Inspector Grain, I just want some 

clarificatio n based on the testimony of 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
406 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

another witness in the Respondent's case. 

Describe for us, just to be clear, what was 

the weather and the extent of any contaminants 

that you saw on the aircrafts on February 

17th? 

I believe I stated previously in 

testimony that the -- the temperature varied 

between 33 and 36 degrees. That was verified 

through a blue ribbon package of the weather 

from the National Weather Service or NOAA to 

be specific. The weather during the time 

frame that I was there on the 17th showed 

light snow only and that is also what we 

observed. As far as contaminants on the 

airplane, they would have been so minimal that 

it was not even visible to the naked eye at 40 

-- 3 0 to 40 yards away. 

Q Okay. And so did you see any 

contaminants blow over from the left wing to 

the right wing root area during the -- during 

the time of your observations? 

No. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
407 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q So there was no reason to start at 

the root area of the right wing given the 

weather that occurred that day, even if you 

accept the premise that they may deal with 

that? 

No That would not have been 

applicable for, as we pointed out, the "may" 

clause that's in paragraph 14 of that manual 

that was brought up. States that they "may" 

spray from the rear in the event that there is 

contaminant in the cavities of the flight 

controls in the back. It does not address the 

root, but there was nothing observed to be 

spraying in cavities or a need to be spraying 

at the root due to blowover. 

Q Okay. Now, there was testimony, 

if I recall correctly, from the supervisor --

the ground crew supervisor that he recalled 

the snow had actually picked up during the 

second batch. Is that your recollection or 

reflected in the National Weather report? 

A Are you saying the second time 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
408 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that Inspector Blauer and I were at Spot 21? 

Yes 

No The snow intensity had not 

changed at all nor -- nor was there all of a 

sudden a need to be looking at alternative 

procedures due to a large amount of 

contaminant or blowover or anything like it. 

C-13. 

A 

here 

Okay. Now, I want you to turn to 

I do not have a C-13 in the binder 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You can approach. 

MR. MORRIS: I've got another one. 

MR. EMERSON; You do It's the 

last page of your white binder. It's in 

there. 

THE WITNESS Oh okay. It's 

just -- I'll put it in there. I do have that. 

BY MR. MORRIS 

Q Okay. Now, you received this as 

part of your investigation; is tha t correct ? 

A Yes, sir. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
409 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

And this was -- you received this 

sometime after February 17th? 

Q 

Yes. Correct. 

In fact, this was received 

sometime after you had already prepared your 

agent's statement in this case; is that 

correct? 

I do not recall that, but my -- I 

don't recall. 

Q Okay. Now, looking at the 

statement dealing -- there -- Mr. Lewis 

indicates about two thirds of the way down in 

this statement or reads, "I was still working 

on trying to fix the issues with some people 

on the de-ice team that were stuck in their 

old ways and most of them were fixing these 

issues." 

Yes. 

Q In your conversation with Mr. 

Lewis, was there any intimation whatsoever 

that you were talking about personnel issues 

as opposed to the de-icing procedures? 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
410 

r^ 1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

A Personnel was not mentioned. The 

only thing that really supported the idea of 

this statement that you read here of "fixed in 

old ways" and "fixing the issues" is he 

commented that the company had been involved 

in sending out multiple memos to the de-ice 

crews basically in helping them through their 

problems. Had there been personnel issues, I 

don't think they would have been sending out 

general memos. Obviously with procedure 

issues, then there could be reminders about 

the procedures that were in their approved 

manual. 

Q During your conversation with him, 

was there anything to deal with the personnel 

as opposed to the procedures that you observed 

on the 17th as far as going from root to tail 

or from left to right wing? 

Q 

Nothing regarding personnel, no. 

Okay. And if you'd turn to your 

statement on C-3, second paragraph, about two 

thirds of the way down, is this -- again, this 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
411 

1 -- C-3 is your statement? 

2 A Correct. 

3 Q Your statement says, "He stated 

4 that he was aware of the problem and is 

5 working to clean up the procedural areas of 

6 noncompliance." So was the substance of your 

7 conversation the procedural areas of 

8 noncompliance or were they some other topic 

9 when you were talking with him on the 17th? 

10 A We didn't get into a lot of 

11 specifics. Our conversation was somewhat 

12 brief. Basically, the way I worded it here 

13 was more or less -- at least to my 

14 recollection -- certainly having this been 

15 written two days after the fact where details 

16 were very clear, I recall his statement being 

17 somewhat as of that that I wrote, that he was 

18 aware of the issues when we notified him that 

19 we had some problems. He stated that he was 

2 0 aware, that he was working with his crews to 

21 fix those, and that he hoped to have all of 

22 them resolved by the end of the season. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
412 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Okay. And those issues in the 

context of your conversation were the 

procedures of the de-icing; correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Dealing with the OpSpecs of this 

case, OpSpecs 

accepted? 

are they approved or 

Well, OpSpecs are issues. 

A 

Issued. 

Issued. The things that are 

contained within the OpSpecs sometimes deal 

with approved programs, never accepted. 

Q So in layman's terms, is the 

OpSpecs basically the contract between the FAA 

and the -- and SkyWest how it's authorized to 

conduct its operations? 

Q 

That's correct 

And it is not free to deviate from 

that in any fashion, is it? 

A And I should clarify something. I 

said never something's accepted. That might 

be a little bit bold, so I'll say usually. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 WW w. neal rg ross. com 
413 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

But -- your question again? 

Q The company is not free to deviate 

from those approved or accepted procedures, 

are they? 

A Not anything within their OpSpec, 

no. There are regulations that require them -

- in Section 119 of 14 C.F.R., they require 

them to follow those OpSpecs. 

MR. MORRIS: Sir, I offer C-13 for 

identification as C-13. 

THE WITNESS C.F.R, is Code of 

Federal Regulations, in the event we need 

that. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Any objection? 

MR, EMERSON: No. 

MR. MORRIS: That's all I have, 

sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Complainant's 13 -

Complainant's 13 for identification is 

received into evidence as Complainant's 13, 

CROSS EXAMINATION 

BY MR. EMERSON: 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
414 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Q Mr. Grain, I'm -- I guess I'm 

confused. Yesterday you testified that at the 

time you talked to Mr. Lewis, you weren't sure 

that there was a violation. 

A That's correct. 

Q So his response to you you also 

said was an aggravating circumstance because 

it seemed to you that they knew there was a 

violation and they weren't doing anything to 

correct it. 

A I don't believe I stated that they 

knew there was a violation. I said that he 

was aware of procedural deviations and that, 

as a supervisor, did not make action to 

correct it. 

Q But at that time, you didn't --

you're saying that you didn't know that that 

was a violation 

A That's correct 

What did he tell you then? 

mean, we're talking procedural violations or -

- we're using -- did he look at you and say. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
415 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Yeah, I know. We're spraying the airplane in 

the wrong direction? Is that what he said? 

A No. He didn't say that. 

Q And did you tell him. You're 

spraying the airplane in the wrong direction 

and he said. Yeah, I know, I'm trying to fix 

it? 

A I don't believe we referred to 

direction. I believe that we said that spray 

pattern procedures that we had observed, that 

some of the airplanes were not done properly. 

And he mentioned that he was aware of the 

issue. 

Q Yesterday you were in the 

courtroom when Mr. Lewis testified; is that 

right? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q You heard him say that you 

approached him and said. Looks great. There's 

one small thing I want to bring to your 

attention. That sound about right? 

A Sort of. We told him that overall 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

416 

that things looked okay regarding the aircraft 

departing with clean wing concept. But as far 

as procedurally, that we had some issues. 

MR. EMERSON; No further 

questions 

that? 

down. 

Honor, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Redirect based on 

MR. MORRIS: Nothing. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Sir, you may step 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. Your 

(The witness was excused,) 

JUDGE GOODWIN; Any further 

witnesses or testimony or evidence? 

MR, MORRIS: No, sir, 

MR, EMERSON: No, sir, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay, I assume --

you don't want to brief this, do you, Mr 

Emerson? 

MR. EMERSON; I would love to 

brief this. Your Honor. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
417 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

JUDGE GOODWIN: I want to make 

sure he's paying attention, Mr. Morris. In 

the past cases, you and I have talked about 

January. You want to -- I'm-- as I get 

older, I'm getting to the point that I don't 

want anybody working on holidays. We get so 

few of them. Mr. Emerson, I'm going to give 

Mr. Morris the first bite here because I know 

you've got two briefs due the end of January, 

don't you? 

MR. MORRIS: I can do them 

finish that same week as well, sir, because 

I've got that whole week reserved and I'm well 

along on the -- one of those two. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Do you remember 

which case that was? 

MR. MORRIS: Yes, sir. That was 

the Federal Express case. I'm well along in 

that one already and the --

JUDGE GOODWIN: Which FedEx case? 

MR. MORRIS: I can tell you in one 

second here, sir. Do you want the case 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
418 

r^ 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

number, sir? 

number. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Just the DMS 

MR. MORRIS: Just the what, sir? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: DMS for the case 

number, yeah. 

MR. MORRIS: Case Number is 

CP09NM0010. The DMS number is FAA-2009-0721. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Mr. Emerson, let's 

see if these dates work for you, Mr. Morris 

has got a case where I did a pre-hearing --

post-hearing briefing schedule where the 

Federal Aviation Administration would file 

their post-hearing brief on or before January 

28th. My thought in this situation would be 

to reverse the sequence because I assume you 

want to brief -- do you want to brief first or 

second, Mr. Morris? 

MR. MORRIS: As long as I get last 

bite, sir, I don't care. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: You always --

well, then you probably should go first. 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
419 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

MR. EMERSON: He has the burden, 

That's fine, 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, Mr, Morris, 

if acceptable to Counsel, what we would do is 

the Agency's post-hearing brief would be due 

January 2 8th, Mr, Emerson, your response 

would be due February 14th, And any rebuttal 

would be due by the Agency on February 21st, 

Does that work for the two of you? 

MR, MORRIS: Yes, sir. Works for 

me. 

MR, EMERSON: Yes, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Now, 

normally the transcript has got -- normally 

the court reporter has about two weeks to do 

the transcript, but she sends it to Neal Gross 

who then sends it to our office who then sends 

it to docket, so you two seem to work well 

together. Why don't you coordinate to make 

sure the two of you know when the transcript 

is available. My understanding, Mr. Morris, 

is it takes up to four weeks before you get 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
420 

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the transcript. I guess everything goes to 

D.C. and then D.C. mails it out to Northwest 

Mountain, 

I suspect by either next week or 

the week after, the exhibits will be in 

dockets and posted. Anything that we need to 

redact? 

MR. MORRIS: I don't think so, sir 

MR. EMERSON: No, sir. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Okay. Then I will 

get a post-hearing briefing schedule out 

hopefully by next week in order --

MR. MORRIS: Sir, do you want to 

take that or do you want a photograph of it? 

How do you want that? 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Can I fold it? 

MR, MORRIS I don't -- it's on a 

background. 

JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, I'll -- how 

did you get -- you did it locally, didn't you? 

MR, MORRIS: Yes, sir. 

MR. EMERSON: You have a copy in 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
421 

1 the exhibits, 

2 MR, MORRIS: C-1. It's just -- it 

3 is a little bit different. 

4 JUDGE GOODWIN: Well, this one's -

5 - I've got a camera. I'm going to try taking 

6 a couple of photos of it. And if I decide to 

7 go that way, I'll share the photo with the two 

8 of you. I've got a digital camera with me 

9 that may work. If not, I may just take it in 

10 and say. Listen, here. Say, Here, you figure 

11 out how to mail it. You should have seen the 

12 one I had in LAX-3, about four times the size 

13 of that. I ended up leaving it in the 

14 courtroom to put in the trash. 

15 Anything else in this case? 

16 MR, MORRIS: No, sir, 

17 MR, EMERSON: No, sir, 

18 JUDGE GOODWIN: All right. Thank 

19 you, gentlemen. And we'll go off the record. 

2 0 That concludes the hearing. 

21 (Whereupon, at 9:58 a.m., the hearing 

22 was adjourned.) 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 
able 378:6 381:4 

383:21 

above-entitled 

364:18 

absence 398:20 

401:15,22 

accept 407:4 

acceptable 419:4 

accepted 412:7,12 

412:21413:3 

accumulated 394:9 

accumulating 

375:7,10,14 

acting 386:10 

388:7,13,14,17 

action 414:14 

activities 381:5 

actual 396:17 

additional 394:16 

396:7 

address 378:20 

407:12 

adjourned 421:22 

Administration 

365:4 418:13 

Administrative 

364:22 

Affairs 365:15 

afternoon 393:18 

396:14 

Agency 419:8 

Agency's 419:5 

agent 397:9 

agents 401:20 

agent's 409:6 

aggravating 414:7 

ahead 368:8,19 

373:6 

Air 369:4 

aircraft 376:7,8 

385:9 387:8 416:1 

aircrafts 406:4 

Airlines 364:10 

365:16 376:4 

389:18 391:19 

airmen 369:5 390:1 

airplane 375:17 

406:15 415:1,5 

airplanes 373:14 

375:11,14 387:12 

387:14415:11 

airport 370:19 

371:4 393:13 

allow 377:3,4 

alternative 408:5 

AMERICA 364:1 

amount 375:15 

394:10 408:6 

analyze 395:7 

answer 373:7 

391:16 

answers 373:10 

anti384:16 

anybody 373:19 

391:18 392:2 

404:12,16,20 

417:6 

APPEARANCES 

365:1 

applicable 407:7 

application 376:20 

378:1 

applied 387:21 

approach 408:12 

approached 415:19 

approved 410:12 

412:6,12 413:3 

approximately 

369:19 372:12 

382:3,6 

area 372:12 373:13 

377:5 406:20 

407:2 

areas 411:5,7 

arrive 372:17 

asked 374:6,15 

378:20 381:18 

398:19 

asking 391:5 

assigned 374:22 

401:11,19 

assume 416:18 

418:16 

attention 376:16 

415:21417:2 

authorized 412:15 

available 419:21 

Avenue 365:7 

Aviation 365:4 

418:13 

aware 383:21 384:1 

391:7,12 397:21 

399:2 400:11 

411:4,18,20 

414:13 415:12 

a-n 367:21 

a.m 364:19 367:2 

421:21 

B 

back 377:4 382:8 

383:22 385:4,7 

388:6 393:14,15 

394:11 399:18 

400:10 403:22 

407:12 

background 

420:18 

based 398:14 

402:15,16 405:22 

416:6 

basically 394:3 

410:7 411:12 

412:14 

batch 407:20 

bee 387:1 

behalf365:2,12 

believe 377:10,13 

379:4 386:11 

392:3,5 393:2 

397:3 406:6 

414:11415:8,9 

believed 381:9 

Ben 388:17 

Bennett 364:15 

beyond 403:12 

binder 382:9 

408:10,15 

bit 412:22 421:3 

bite 417:8 418:20 

Blauer 408:1 

Blauer's 388:17 

Bldg 364:15 

blow 406:19 

blowover 407:15 

408:7 

blue 382:9 406:9 

bold 412:22 

boss 386:6,8 391:4 

bottom 383:8 

397:13 

brief411:12 416:19 

416:22418:14,17 

418:17 419:5 

briefing 418:12 

420:11 

briefs 417:9 

bring 415:20 

brought 407:9 

burden 419:1 

busy 388:5 

C 364:22 365:14 

367:1 

call 367:7,11 

387:18 

called 370:5 395:20 

calls 367:12 

camera 421:5,8 

car 372:20,21 

373:3 374:10 

care 418:20 

career 369:16 

case 372:4 399:18 

401:16 406:1 

409:6 412:6 

417:16,18,20,22 

418:5,7,11421:15 

caseload 401:15,18 

cases 417:3 

caught 394:15 

cavities 407:11,14 

certain 368:6 

certainly 400:4 

411:14 

certificate 368:20 

Pag e 422 

385:19 389:4,10 

391:13 

chain 389:2 

chance 385:7 

396:17 

changed 408:4 

chaos 388:7 

check 369:5 380:13 

390:1 

circumstance 

414:7 

City 364:17 370:19 

clarification 

405:22 

clarify 412:20 

clause 407:8 

clean 411:5 416:2 

clear 396:11 398:8 

406:2411:16 

close 382:3 

closely 371:5 

closer 372:3 

CMO 392:6 395:6 

402:4 

cockpit 378:7 

Code413:ll 

come 374:3 377:4 

393:14 394:11 

401:8 

comfortable 

387:19 

coming 404:9 

command 378:11 

389:2 

commented 410:5 

communication 

379:3 

communications 

378:7 389:12,13 

389:21 

company 389:12 

389:14,17,21 

390:4,8 395:19 

396:2,7 410:5 

413:2 

competent 370:1 

Complainant 365:2 

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc 

202-234-4433 
366:16 

Complainant's 

405:13 413:18,19 

413:20 

Compliance 392:16 

392:22 

concept 416:2 

concluded 403:15 

concludes 421:20 

conclusion 404:12 

concourse 371:22 

372:15 

concourses 370:20 

conditions 375:1,4 

conduct412:16 

confused 414:2 

connected 389:9 

contact 378:14,18 

380:2 381:18 

contacts 381:1 

390:8 

contained 412:11 

contaminant 

407:11408:7 

contaminants 

377:4 406:3,14,19 

CONTENTS 366:4 

context 412:2 

continue 382:1 

contract 412:14 

contrary 385:9 

397:22 

controls 407:12 

conversation 

374:13,14 409:19 

410:14411:7,11 

412:2 

conversations 

394:18 395:1 

coordinate 419:19 

copy 420:22 

correct 393:21 

394:6,12,16 

396:14,19 397:2 

398:12 403:2,3 

408:21 409:3,7 

411:2 412:3,17 

414:5,10,15,19 

correctly 407:17 

Counsel 365:6 

367:3 368:1,4 

398:15 419:4 

couple 393:12 

421:6 

course 369:16 

court 364:14 368:5 

371:18 373:8 

419:15 

courtroom 364:15 

405:5 415:15 

421:14 

Court's 404:7 

cover 375:16 

CP09NM0010 

418:8 

CP09NM0012 

364:9 

Crain 366:10 

405:12,13,15,21 

414:1 

Crain's388:14 

create 382:20 

created 382:16 

383:11,17,19 

crew 369:4 378:8 

407:18 

crews 384:17 410:7 

411:20 

CROSS 366:6 

393:9413:21 

crossing 403:9 

C-1421:2 

C-13 408:9,10 

413:9,10 

C-3410:21 411:1 

C.F.R413:7,11 

D 

D 367:1 

date 383:2 397:17 

dated 383:1 397:14 

397:16,20 403:14 

dates 383:3 418:10 

day 378:4,15 

379:14,17 380:9 

402:4,8 407:3 

days 400:15,17 

411:15 

de378:7 381:9 

deal 407:4 410:15 

412:11 

dealing 402:21 

409:11412:5 

December 364:13 

decide 421:6 

degrees 406:8 

departing 416:2 

Department 364:3 

364:23 

departure 396:12 

Describe 406:2 

designated 369:6 

desk 394:10 401:17 

details 393:19 

411:15 

determination 

385:8 

determine 395:8 

396:17 

deviate 412:18 

413:2 

deviation 378:11 

381:12 384:2 

387:18,20 390:18 

deviations 381:9,21 

383:15 391:19 

392:7 394:20 

399:21414:13 

de-ice 378:1409:15 

410:6 

de-iced 373:14 

376:8,9 387:8,12 

de-icing 376:3,21 

377:2,8,14,15,21 

378:12 381:4 

382:2 384:16 

387:15,20 391:20 

409:22 412:3 

differences 381:15 

381:16 

different 376:18 

381:1,13 386:17 

395:4 396:21 

421:3 

differently 387:12 

difficulty 371:19 

digital 421:8 

direct 366:6 368:15 

386:9 391:3 

405:19 

direction 376:12,15 

376:16,20 415:2,5 

415:9 

Director 365:15 

389:22 

discrepancies 

390:12 393:15 

403:8,10,22 

discuss 404:11 

discussed 367:10 

distracted 400:21 

DMS 364:10 418:2 

418:5,8 

docket 364:8 

419:18 

dockets 420:6 

document 382:12 

383:10,18,19 

doing 379:9 399:10 

399:21401:3 

403:16 414:9 

driving 374:19 

dropping 372:5 

drove 3 72:19 

due 398:21 399:22 

407:15 408:6 

417:9 419:5,7,8 

duties 369:2 389:6 

D.C 364:25 420:2,2 

E 

E 367:1,1 370:20 

371:22 372:14 

eight 369:19 

370:16 

EIR 395:14 

either 392:5 420:4 

Element 369:12,21 

I 

Pag e 423 

370:5,8,14 372:10 

Emerson 365:14 

367:5,8,12 368:9 

368:12,16 372:2,6 

372:8 384:5,11,12 

386:2 387:6 393:6 

397:4,5 398:16,18 

402:10 403:6 

404:4,22 408:14 

413:15,22 416:4 

416:17,20,21 

417:7 418:9419:1 

419:6,12 420:9,22 

421:17 

employee 385:21 

ended 421:13 

Enforcement 

392:16,22 

EPI 374:21 375:2 

EPIs 394:15 

error 397:19 

ESQ 365:3,14 

estimate 369:18 

380:19 

event 407:10 

413:12 

eventually 401:8 

evidence 384:9 

413:20416:15 

Exactly 386:16 

examination 

368:10,15 393:9 

398:17 402:19 

405:19 413:21 

examiner 390:1 

examiners 369:6 

exchange 374:12 

excuse 404:10 

excused 404:18 

416:13 

Exhibit 384:6 

exhibits 366:14 

420:5 421:1 

Express 417:18 

extent 406:3 

eye 406:16 

Nea l R. Gross & Co . 

202-234-443 3 

I n c 
F364:15 

FAA 364:8 368:18 

369:3 385:20 

392:18 412:14 

FAA-2009-0721 

418:8 

FAA-2009-0979 

364:11 

fact 390:18 396:8 

399:2 409:4 

411:15 

facts 396:8 

fair 396:16 

familiar 377:6 

392:11 

family 398:21 

far 401:19 406:14 

410:17416:2 

FARs 390:5 

fashion 412:19 

favorable 375:1 

February 370:9,11 

372:11 374:21 

382:20,22 383:1,4 

383:15 384:21 

387:9 388:21 

390:13 394:11 

406:4 409:2 419:7 

419:8 

Federal 364:15 

365:4 413:12 

417:18418:13 

FedEx 417:20 

feel 370:1 390:22 

figure 421:10 

file418:13 

filled 398:4 

find 371:22 

fine 368:11 380:14 

388:8 419:2 

finish 373:6,10,11 

417:12 

first 367:19 374:5 

379:7 380:12 

392:6 417:8 

418:17,22 

fit 389:1 

fix409:14 411:21 

415:6 

fixed 410:3 

fixing 409:16 410:4 

fiight407:ll 

flip 382:11 

fluid 377:2,3 

focus 394:14 

focused 400:19 

fold 420:16 

follow 377:20 

393:3 395:7 413:8 

following 384:17 

follow-on 402:15 

follow-up 393:12 

formal 395:18 

found 401:7 

four 419:22 421:12 

frame 406:12 

free412:18 413:2 

front 382:10 

front-line 379:22 

full 367:18 402:4 

further 364:19 

378:14 393:6 

398:13 405:1 

416:4,14 

future 401:5 

G367:l 

general 410:10 

generalities 403:4 

generally 392:14 

gentleman 385:12 

gentlemen 421:19 

George 365:18 

getting 394:15 

397:3 417:5 

give 378:22 380:2 

417:7 

given 407:2 

glasses 371:12,15 

go 368:8,19 371:8 

371:17 373:6 

393:12 395:12 

418:22 421:7,19 

goes 395:18 420:1 

going 367:7 372:4 

374:18 386:18 

391:12 393:19 

399:17 400:4,21 

401:1404:7,9,10 

410:17417:7 

421:5 

gonna 399:3 

GOODWIN 

364:22 367:3,6,9 

367:14,17,22 

368:3,8,11 371:7 

371:11,16 372:2 

384:8 385:11,14 

385:17,20 386:1 

386:21 387:5 

393:8 397:7 

398:14 402:13,16 

403:11404:6,15 

404:19 405:4,9,15 

408:12413:14,18 

416:6,9,14,18 

417:1,15,20 418:2 

418:5,9,21 419:3 

419:13 420:10,16 

420:19 421:4,18 

Government 

365:15 372:19,21 

373:3 

great415:19 

green 371:6 

Gross419:16 

ground 375:8 

404:8 407:18 

guess 414:1 420:1 

guidance 389:10 

H 

hand 367:15 

handle 367:10 

handwriting 383:8 

happened 382:7 

383:5 

happening 394:2 

hear 378:10 

heard 404:7 415:18 

hearing 364:6,19 

404:13 421:20,21 

Hearings 364:4,24 

held 369:8 

help 373:8 

helping 410:7 

Hey 394:20 398:6 

Hold 386:21 

holidays 417:6 

Honor 367:5 368:9 

384:5 393:7 

403:18 405:1 

416:12,22 

hoped 411:21 

hopefully 420:12 

I 

ice 377:4 

icing 378:8 381:10 

384:17 

idea 403:21 410:2 

identification 

384:9 413:10,19 

identify 373:2 

indicates 409:12 

inform 381:20 

385:1 386:12 

390:9 391:5 398:1 

399:6 

information 380:3 

381:18 388:3 

391:15 403:15 

informed 384:15 

386:20 391:3 

392:2 

initially 379:7 

Inspection 369:21 

370:6,9,14 372:11 

Inspections 369:13 

inspector 384:16 

384:21 385:16 

389:4 393:11 

395:6 398:2 

405:11,15,21 

408:1 

inspectors 383:14 

Pag e 424 

391:9 392:19 

inspector's 382:15 

instruct 404:10 

intensity 408:3 

intentions 390:17 

interaction 380:9 

380:15 

interactions 380:12 

380:17 381:5 

interested 391:2 

401:2 

International 

371:4 

intimation 409:20 

introduce 379:6 

introduced 374:8 

381:17 

investigation 

395:21403:16 

408:21 

investigative 396:2 

involved 410:5 

issue 415:13 

Issued 412:9,10 

issues 390:2 391:12 

399:17 409:14,17 

409:21410:4,8,11 

411:18412:1,8 

416:3 

January 417:4,9 

418:14419:6 

Jason 366:10 

388:14405:13 

Joan 366:8 367:13 

367:16,20 

job 369:2,11 

379:11 380:6 

389:6 

Johnston 384:22 

385:13 386:6 

389:1 390:7,11 

392:1 395:2 399:2 

Johnston's 386:3 

Judge 364:22 367:3 

367:6,9,14,17,22 

Nea l R. Gross & Co . 

202-234-443 3 

Inc . 
Page 425 

368:3,8,11371:7 

371:11,16 372:2 

384:8 385:11,14 

385:17,20 386:1 

386:21 387:5 

393:8 397:7 

398:14 402:13,16 

403:11404:6,15 

404:19 405:4,9,15 

408:12413:14,18 

416:6,9,14,18 

417:1,15,20 418:2 

418:5,9,21419:3 

419:13 420:10,16 

420:19 421:4,18 

J-o 367:20 

J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n 

386:5 

K 

keep 373:8 

knew 396:20 414:8 

414:12 

know371:ll 373:9 

373:21 374:1,3 

379:19 380:21 

383:13 386:22 

388:10,16,19,20 

391:14,16,17 

392:1,6 398:10 

399:14 400:14 

401:7,10,19 

414:17415:1,6 

417:8 419:20 

f 

Lake 364:17 

370:19 371:4 

lapsed 380:22 

large 394:10 408:6 

Law 364:22 

LAX-3421:12 

layman's 412:13 

Leading 403:6 

leaving 421:13 

left 387:16 396:12 

406:19 410:18 

Legal 365:15 

letter 395:20 

letters 389-11 

let's 418:9 

Lewis 373:22 374:4 

378:15 380:16 

381:1,6,17,20 

409:11,20 414:3 

415:15 

life 399:17 400:21 

light 375:6,15 

406:13 

Lind 365:7 

line 384:3,13 

Listen 421:10 

little 412:22 421:3 

locally 420:20 

location 370:22 

372:10,18 374:15 

LOI 395:20 396:5,6 

long 368:19,22 

369:8 380:16 

382:1418:19 

look371:5,16 385:6 

386:18 388:5 

400:2 414:22 

looked 416:1 

looking 408:5 

409:10 

Looks 415:19 

lot 388:7 399:16 

411:10 

love 416:21 

M 

mail 421:11 

mails 420:2 

manage 401:15 

management 

368:20 379:20 

385:19 

manager 369:5 

395:12 

managers 394:19 

manual 377:21 

381:14 383:22 

384:18 385:8,10 

390:17 392:17,22 

397:22 398:1,3 

399-19 407-8 J y y * i. ^ ^\ J 1 , \ j 

410:13 

map371:3,13,17 

372:3 

MARK366:14 

markings 372:22 

375:17,20 

material 376:21 

377:14 

materials 387:21 

matter 364:9,18 

396:13 

matters 394:9 

mean 389:17 

414:21 

member 379:19 

memos 410:6,10 

mpntinnpH 4.1 0* 1 

415:12 

met 379:16 

mind 368:10 

minimal 406:15 

minutes 380:20 

382:5 

missed 400:16,16 

mist 375:6 

monitor 378:6 

381:4 

morning 383:4 

387:9,22 388:5 

Morris 365:3 384:7 

393:8,10 397:6,8 

398:13,19 402:14 

402:18,20 403:7,9 

403:17,19 404:17 

404:21405:2,8,11 

405:20 408:13,19 

413:9,16 416:8,16 

417:2,8,11,17,21 

418:4,7,10,18,19 

419:3,10,21 420:8 

420:13,17,21 

421:2,16 

Mountain 365:5 

420:3 

move 372:3 

multiple 410:6 

N 

• 

N 367:1 

naked 406:16 

name367:18,19 

378:20 385:11 

386:4 

National 406:10 

407:21 

nature 378:17 

389:16,20 

Neal419:16 

near 401:4 

need 371:8,8,14 

389:10 407:14 

408:5 413:12 

420:6 

never 412:12,21 

new 380:5 

nine 382:4,4 

NOAA 406:10 

Noal 384:22 385:13 

386:3,16 389:1 

395:1 

noncompliance 

411:6,8 

normally 419:14 

419:14 

Northwest 365:5 

420:2 

Nos 364:8 

note 371:5,6 377:22 

notice 376:12 392:7 

399:20 401:3,9 

noticed 376:14 

381:12,16403:8 

notification 393:20 

395:18 

notified 411:18 

notify 390:3 391:18 

396:2 

number 371:1 

378:21 400:20 

418:1,3,6,7,8 

N-o-a-1386:5 

O 

0367:1 j 

oath 40S-16 1 

objection 403:6 1 

413:14 1 

objections 384:7 

obligation 390:22 

observation 383:2 

observations 376:2 

385:2 386:13 

393:13 397:17 

406:21 1 

observe 376:6 

382:2 

observed 376:7 

381:21 383:14 

385:5 386:17 

390:16 391:20 

395:3 396:21 

3Q8-11 39Q-9? 

403:1,22 406:14 

407:13 410:16 

415:10 

observes 395:6 

observing 392:8 

Obviously 410:10 

occur 370:18 

occurred 396:18 

407:3 

occurrences 400:20 

offer 413:9 

offered 388:3 | 

offers 384:6 [ 

office 364:4,24 \ 

365-6 368-21 1 

382:8 383:14 i 

385:4,19 388:6 \ 

389:2 391:6 1 

393:16 394:4,6,11 1 

396:13 399:4 | 

400:12,18,20 j 

402:3 419:17 ; 

Oh 408:17 \ 

okay 367:6,9,17 j 

368:7 371:16,21 i 

372:6 373:5 374:7 | 

374:16,20 380:22 

381:15 386:1 

Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc, 
388:4 394:8,18 

395:11,13,17 

396:1,11,20 397:3 

397:13,18 398:4,8 

402:12 404:3,14 

405:4,9 406:18 

407:16 408:8,17 

408:20 409:10 

410:20 412:1 

416:1,18419:13 

420:10 

okayed 377:19 

old 409:16 410:4 

older 417:5 

once391:15 395:11 

one's 421:4 

open 395:14 

operations 376:3 

384:16,20 385:16 

412:16 

opportunity 401:14 

opposed 409:22 

410:16 

Ops 389:3 398:1 

OpSpec 413:5 

OpSpecs 377:7,11 

377:15,20 381:10 

390:5 412:5,6,8 

412:11,14413:8 

order 378:11 

392:11,15 393:3 

420:12 

outlined 384:18 

385:10 

overall 415:22 

oversee 389:9 

overseeing 390:1 

oversees 369:5 

o'clock 370:16 

382:4 

P 367:1 

package 406:9 

page 408:15 

paint 375:19 

paragraph 407:8 

410:21 

parked 373:17 

374:7 

part 389:7 395:17 

396:5 408:21 

passing 394:20 

pattern 376:13 

415:10 

patterns 384:19 

Paul386:ll,12 

387:1 395:2 

Pause 372:1 393:5 

paying 417:2 

people 409:14 

perform 369:12,21 

370:2,5 

Performance 

369:13,21 370:5,8 

370:14 372:11 

performed 369:16 

372:10 376:3 

performing 374:20 

394:15 

period 394:3 

personal 393:20 

394:2 396:13 

398:21 399:3,22 

personnel 409:21 

410:1,8,15,19 

Peterson 366:8 

367:13,16,20 

368:4,12,17 371:7 

372:9 373:6 

386:22 393:11 

398:19 400:22 

404:4,9,11 

Peterson's 405:5 

phone 378:21 

photo 421:7 

photograph 420:14 

photos 421:6 

physically 374:9 

PIC 377:19 

picked 407:19 

picking 371:19 

pilot 378:10 

planned 400:8 

please 367:11,17,19 

384:13 386:4 

plowed 404:8 

POI 391:7,11,14 

395:13 398:5 

point378:19 417:5 

pointed 407:7 

position 369:9 

positions 388:8 

possible 393:15 

395:19 

possibly 377:3 

posted 420:6 

post-hearing 

418:12,14419:5 

420:11 

potential 390:4,9 

396:3 

potentially 392:8 

practice 377:7 

390:3 395:5 

premise 407:4 

prepared 397:11 

409:5 

Presently 369:4 

pretty 394:5 

previously 405:14 

406:6 

pre-hearing 418:11 

Principal 384:15 

384:20 385:15 

389:3 398:1 

prior 396:12 

403:20 404:12 

probably 371:10 

401:13 418:22 

problem 398:6 

411:4 

problems 410:8 

411:19 

procedural 411:5,7 

414:13,21 

procedurally 416:3 

procedure 391:6 

396:1410:10 

procedures 377:8 

377:21 384:1,2,17 

385:5,9 386:17 

387:15 390:19 

391:20 397:22 

398:2 408:6 

409:22 410:12,16 

412:3 413:3 

415:10 

proceed 367:4 

process 373:5 

395:17 396:3 

program 369:5,7 

programs 412:12 

properly 415:11 

protocol 377:16 

391:6 

protocols 378:12 

pulled 374:5 

pursuant 364:19 

put408:18 421:14 

P-a-u-1387:1,3 

P-e-t-e-r-s-o-n 

367:21 

qualified 370:2 

question 372:7 

373:7 374:16 

398:20 413:1 

questions 393:7,12 

398:15 402:15,17 

416:5 

quick 393:16 

R 

R365:3 367:1 

radio 378:3 

raining 375:22 

Raise 367:14 

Ramirez 386:11,12 

386:15 387:3,7 

388:2,11 391:4 

392:4 395:2 399:1 

400:11 

read 384:13 410:3 

reads 409:13 

ready 367:4 

really 380:21 410:2 

rear 407:10 

Pag e 426 

reason 371:18 

396:5 404:16 

407:1 

rebuttal 404:20 

405:3 419:7 

recall 370:13 379:5 

380:18,21 385:5 

387:10,11 388:6 

402:9 405:11 

407:17 409:8,9 

411:16 

recalled 366:11 

381:13 386:18 

387:13 407:18 

RECD 366:14 

received 369:20 

384:9 391:15 

393:20 408:20 

409:1,4 413:20 

Recess 364:19 

recognize 382:11 

recollection 407:20 

411:14 

record 421:19 

RECROSS 366:6 

402:19 

red371:5 372:13 

372:13 

redact 420:7 

redirect 366:6 

398:14,17 416:6 

redistributed 

401:19 

refer 372:4 

referred 415:8 

reflected 403:14 

407:21 

regarding 3 84:18 

410:19416:1 

Region 365:5 

Regional 365:6 

regulations 413:6 

413:12 

remain 368:10 

remaining 376:9 

remember 370:21 

371:1 372:9 380:8 

Nea l R. Gross & Co . 

202-234-443 3 

Inc , 
417:15 

remind 405:16 

reminders 410:11 

Renton 365:8 

repeat 372:7 

repeatedly 403:13 

rephrase 403:17 

report 390:21 

391:3 407:21 

reporter 368:6 

371:18 373:8 

419:15 

require 413:6,7 

required 393:2 

researching 390:17 

reserved 417:13 

resolved 411:22 

respond 388:2 

Respondent 365:12 

366:21 

Respondent's 

367:16 384:6,8,10 

397:7,9 406:1 

response 396:6 

414:6 419:6 

responsibilities 

369:3,12 379:14 

389:6 

responsibility 

390:20 

rest 399:12 

returned 401:17 

reverse 418:16 

reviewing 397:21 

399:18 

ribbon 406:9 

RICHARD 364:22 

ride 405:8 

right 367:14 381:2 

387:16,17 388:12 

401:12 405:10 

406:20 407:2 

410:18 415:16,21 

421:18 

River 365:17 

Road 365:17 

Room 364:24 

root 376:8,10 377:3 

377:5,10,14,18,19 

378:1 387:9,21 

406:20 407:2,13 

407:15 410:17 

roughly 370:16 

383:20 

R-a-m-i-r-e-z 

387:4 

8364:16 367:1 

salient 396:8 

Salt 364:17 370:19 

371:4 

sat 401:16 

saw373:17 374:6 

386:20 387:11,20 

394:20 406:4 

saying 407:22 

414:17 

says 383:4 411:3 

schedule 418:12 

420:11 

scope 403:12 

SCOTT 365:3 

season 411:22 

seated 367:18 

368:10 

second 380:15 

407:20,22 410:21 

417:22 418:18 

Section 413:7 

see368:13 371:3,5 

372:5 373:12,13 

373:16 375:19 

390:4,18 391:9 

393:13,14 406:18 

418:10 

seeing371:13 

seen 381:16 387:8 

390:12 421:11 

sending 410:6,9 

sends419:16,17,17 

sequence 418:16 

Service 406:10 

seven 400:16 

Seventh 364:24 

share 421:7 

short 405:2 

showed 406:12 

sight 374:1 

signature 382:18 

significance 376:19 

signs 389:11 

similar 383:14 

simply 374:15 

sir 398:13 402:14 

402:18 404:17 

405:3,8,17 408:22 

413:9,17415:17 

416:9,16,17 

417:12,17,22 

418:1,4,20 419:10 

419:12 420:8,9,13 

420:21421:16,17 

situation 418:15 

six 376:8 385:9 

387:8,21 

size 421:12 

SkyWest 364:10 

365:16 367:12 

368:20 369:6 

373:17 376:3 

377:8,15,20 

378:12 382:2 

384:5 385:18 

387:8 389:17 

391:19 392:2,7 

412:15 

small 415:20 

smaller 382:10 

smart 373:9 

snow 375:6,7 

406:13 407:19 

408:3 

something's 412:21 

somewhat411:ll 

411:17 

soon 399:16 400:3 

400:9 401:7 

sorry 368:19 

Sort 415:22 

sound 415:21 

sounds 386:22 

400:16 

South 365:17 

special 377:22 

specific 406:11 

specifics411:ll 

spell 367:19 368:6 

386:3 

spelling 387:1 

spend 402:3 

spot 370:21 372:10 

408:1 

spray 376:12 

377:18 384:18 

407:10 415:9 

spraying 377:2,10 

377:13 407:14,14 

415:1,5 

St365:18 

stand 371:17 

standard 377:6 

378:11 

start 407:1 

started 387:15 

state 364:16 367:18 

377:20 

stated 388:9 406:6 

411:3,19414:11 

statement 382:15 

382:16 384:4,14 

397:10,10 402:22 

403:13 409:6,11 

409:13 410:3,21 

411:1,3,16 

states 364:1,22 

377:17 407:9 

stay 404:16 405:6 

step 416:9 

sticker 372:13 

stickle 371:5,6 

stop 368:5 

straight 373:8 

Street 364:16,24 

stuck 409:15 

submitted 395:20 

substance 411:6 

sudden 408:5 

Pag e 427 

suffering 399:3 

summary 393:16 

supervisor 386:9 

386:10 388:11,13 

388:15,18 407:17 

407:18 414:14 

supervisors 388:20 

401:2 402.-21,22 

403:21 

supported 410:2 

sure374:17 380:13 

381:11 397:1 

401:6,14 414:3 

417:2 419:20 

surveillance 391:10 

suspect 420:4 

SW 365:7 

SWORN 367:16 

405:14 

S.W 364:24 

Tab 382:11 384:6 

397:4,6 

tail410:17 

take 376:11,12 

382:9 399:3 

420:14 421:9 

takes 419:22 

talked 398:5 414:3 

417:3 

talking 380:15 

383:5 409:21 

411:9414:21 

tarmac 398:9 

Tax 364:14 

teach 405:10 

team 409:15 

techniques 384:19 

telecons 389:12 

tell 369:17 370:13 

375:13 379:9,11 

379:13 380:5 

382:14 386:15 

387:7 390:11,14 

392:14 397:14 

414:20 415:4 

Nea l R. Gross & Co . 

202-234-443 3 

Inc , 
Pag e 428 

417:21 

temperature 406:7 

ten 369:19 370:17 

376:7 

terms 412:13 

testified 403:12 

414:2 415:15 

testimony 368:5 

404:12 405:22 

406:7 407:16 

416:15 

thank 367:22 

384:11 387:5 

402:10 404:9,15 

405:17416:11 

421:18 

thing410:2 415:20 

things 368:6 395:3 

412:10416:1 

think 395:14 410:9 

420:8 

thinking 399:15 

thirds 409:12 

410:22 

thought 395:4 

396:22 418:15 

Thursday 364:13 

till370:16 401:17 

time 368:4,4 370:4 

370:4,15 374:8 

379:8 380:22 

381:8,12,17,21 

383:21 386:11 

388:10,12 394:3 

399:17 406:11,21 

407:22 414:3,16 

times 387:21 

421:12 

tip 376:9,10 377:3 

377:11,14,18,19 

378:1 387:9,21 

title 379:11 

TODD 365:14 

told 385:3,12 

386:16 387:10,11 

388:4 395:2 

399:15 400:2 

401:6 415:22 

top 383:4 

topic 411:8 

tragedies 394:2 

401:4 

tragedy 393:21 

398:21 399:3 

400:1 

trained 392:19,21 

training 369:7,20 

390:1 

transcript 419:14 

419:16,20 420:1 

Transportation 

364:3,23 

trash 421:14 

trouble 371:13 

true 404:5 

try 421:5 

trying 3 71:21 

409:14 415:6 

turn 408:8 410:20 

turning 386:22 

Twenty 369:1 

380:20 

two380:ll,17 

381:1,5 383:3 

409:12 410:21 

411:15417:9,14 

419:9,15,18,20 

421:7 

Tylor 373:22 374:4 

378:15 

typed 382:22 

U 

understand 391:4 

399:9 400:22 

understanding 

389:5 419:21 

United 364:1,22 

usually 412:22 

Utah 364:17 

365:18 

U.S 364:14,23 

van 373:17,19,21 

374:4,6 

variations 391:7 

varied 406:7 

vehicle 378:20 

379:8 

vehicles 373:13 

374:19 

verbally 385:3,12 

verified 406:8 

verify 383:22 

view381:8 387:14 

violated 377:11 

violation 377:15 

395:9,12,15,19 

396:3,9,18 397:1 

398:11414:4,9,12 

414:18 

violations 390:4,9 

392:9 414:21 

visible 406:16 

voice 371:19 

W 

walk 374:9 

Wallace 364:15 

want 367:11 372:3 

391:11 395:14 

405:21 408:8 

415:20 416:19 

417:1,4,6,22 

418:17,17420:13 

420:14,15 

wanted 374:17 

380:13 

wants 405:6 

Washington 

364:25 365:8 

wasn't 374:18 

381:11400:4 

way 374:18 380:14 

403:18 409:12 

410:22 411:12 

421:7 

ways 409:16 410:4 

weather 375:4 

406:3,9,10,11 

407:3,21 

week 399; 13 

401:12 402:3 

417:12,13 420:4,5 

420:12 

weeks419:15,22 

went 374:6 379:8 

382:8 

weren't 380:13 

414:3,9 

west 370:20 372:14 

we'll 367:10 421:19 

we're 380:15 404:7 

405:8 414:21,22 

415:1 

we've 404:8 

whatsoever 409:20 

white 408:15 

wing 376:8,9,10,10 

377:5,18 387:16 

387:16,17 406:19 

406:20 407:2 

410:18 416:2 

witness 367:7,11,16 

367:20 368:2,7,14 

371:10,14,21 

385:13,15,18,22 

387:3 402:12 

404:10,14,18 

405:13,17 406:1 

408:17413:11 

416:11,13 

witnesses 366:6 

405:1416:15 

worded411:12 

work 368:17 

394:10,16 399:10 

399:21400:17,19 

401:3,11,18 

418:10419:9,18 

421:9 

worked 368:22 

worker 379:22 

working 409:13 

411:5,20 417:6 

workload 401:16 

Works 419:10 

wouldn't 401:10 

written 411:15 

wrong 415:2,5 

wrote 403:13 

411:17 

yards 406:17 

yeah415:l,6418:6 

years 369:1 

yesterday 367:10 

414:2 415:14 

1 

1366:22 382:11 

384:6,6,8,10 

397:5,6,7,9 

10th 370:11 372:11 

374:21 375:5 

376:4 382:21 

383:1,5,8 384:21 

385:3 387:9,22 

388:21 390:13 

391:19 392:2 

393:14,19 394:4,8 

396:12,14,18 

397:14,16,20 

399:7,10 400:5 

402:6 403:14 

404:1 

11th 400:7,13 

119413:7 

125 364:16 

13 366:19413:18 

413:19,20 

14407:8 413:7 

14th419:7 

1601365:7 

17th383:l,ll,15 

383:18,20 385:6 

392:10 394:6 

397:11,20,21 

398:5,10 399:19 

400:9 402:6 403:1 

403:14,20 406:5 

406:12 409:2 

410:17411:9 

Nea l R. Gross & Co . 

202-234-443 3 

Inc . 
Page 429 

2 364:13 

2003 369:10 

2009370:9 372:11 

382:21 388:21 

2009NM060042 

364:9 

2010 364:13 

20590 364:25 

21408:1 

21st 419:8 

2150.38 392:12 

393:3 

227-1417 365:9 

28th418:15 419:6 

2800 377:7,17 

284 366:22 

3 

30406:17 

33 406:8 

36406:8 

368 366:8 

384 366:22 

393 366:8 

398 366:8 

4 

40 406:16,17 

400 364:24 

402 366:8 

405 366:10 

408 366:19 

413 366:10,19 

425 365:9 

435 365:20 

444 365:17 

45 382:5 

5 

5223 364:15 

5411364:24 

6 

634-3530 365:20 

8 

84138 364:17 

84790 365:18 

9 

9:00 364:19 370:17 

9:06 367:2 

9:58421:21 

98057 365:8 

i 

Neal R. Gross & Co. 

202-234-4433 

Inc 
430 

CERTIFICAT E 

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: skywest Airlines, Inc. 

Before: US Dept. of Transportation 

Date: 12-02-10 

Place: Salt Lake City, UT 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

Court Reporter 

(202) 234-4433 

NEAL R. GROSS 

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com