### Page 1

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY**

**+ + + + + REGIONAL STANDARDS ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP** 

**+ + + + + MEETING** 

**+ + + + THURSDAY**  **AUGUST 14, 2014 The Working Group convened in Room**  **6097/8/9, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, SW, Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Neil Eisner, facilitator,**  **presiding. PRESENT**  **NEIL EISNER, Facilitator TIM BALLO, Earthjustice**  **GARY CLARK, Goodman Manufacturing Company JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand**  **RAY ELLIS, Lincoln Electric Cooperative GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor-Owned**  **Utilities JOHN GIBBONS, Carrier Corporation**  **SCOTT HARRIS, Harris, Wiltshire & Grannis LLP GLENN HOURAHAN, Air Conditioning Contractors**  **of America DAVID HUNGERFORD, California Energy Commission**  **(via telephone) MATTHEW LATTANZI, NORDYNE Inc.**  **KAREN MEYERS, Rheem Manufacturing Company ELIZABETH NOLL, Natural Resources Defense**  **Council STEVE PORTER, Johnstone Supply**  **DOUG RAWALD, U.S. Department of Energy General Counsel**  **BRYAN ROCKY, Johnson Controls**

### Page 2

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an **Energy-Efficient Economy AMY SHEPHERD, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and**  **Refrigeration Institute CHARLES WHITE, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling**  **Contractors National Association DAVE WINNINGHAM, Allied Air Enterprises, LLC** 

**ALSO PRESENT**

**KARIM AMRANE, AHRI ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, U.S. Department of Energy**  **LAURA BARHYDT, U.S. Department of Energy DAVID CALABRESE, Daikin Corporation**  **DAN COHEN, U.S. Department of Energy KEITH DENNIS, National Rural Electric**  **Cooperative Association JOHANNA HARIHARAN, U.S. Department of Energy**  **JOHN HURST, Lennox International, Inc. CHARLES MCCRUDDEN, ACCA**  **JONATHAN MELCHI, HARDI ANIRUDDH ROY, Goodman Manufacturing Company**  **ERIC STAS, U.S. Department of Energy DON SURRENA, National Association of Home**  **Builders**

### Page 3

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S**

**Introductory Presentation. . . . . . . . . . . 4 Doug Rawald** 

**What is needed from the Department . . . . . 113**

**Presentation by Chuck White. . . . . . . . . 193**

**General Discussion . . . . . . . . . . . . . 301**

### Page 4

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  **2 (9:00 a.m.)**  **3 MR. EISNER: If everybody can go**  **4 to your seat, we can get started. The first**  **5 thing I want to ask everybody for, you didn't**  **6 have to go through the usual thing where you**  **7 gave them a business card. If you could all**  **8 pass up a business card, so I'll have an**  **9 attendance list of who's here today.**  **10 MALE PARTICIPANT: You have to**  **11 speak louder, so everyone can hear you.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Okay. I want**  **13 everybody to pass up a business card, so they**  **14 can use it for attendance today and know who's**  **15 here. Usually they collect them when they get**  **16 you before you go through security.**  **17 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, Neil, for**  **18 those of us who don't have a business card,**  **19 there's a form that can be filled out.**  **20 MR. EISNER: I'll pass around a**  **21 sheet of paper. If you don't have one, just**  **22 sign in there. The sheet's coming around.** 

### Page 5

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Just sign your name. Thank you. All right.**  **2 We now can hand it off to our instructor for**  **3 this morning, to go through a slide show**  **4 presentation. There'll be little forms for**  **5 you to fill out about the quality of this**  **6 presentation, so we can rate him later on and**  **7 see if there's room for improvement.**  **8 MEMBER SACHS: Why do we have to**  **9 wait? We can fill them out now.**  **10 MR. EISNER: That's a good point.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: So, you're referring**  **12 to me, as I volunteered yesterday. I did**  **13 forget to bring my cards yesterday. So, I do**  **14 have those and I'll pass them around, so folks**  **15 have information to get in touch with me. If**  **16 you would pass that down and around.**  **17 I also have a copy of the slide**  **18 deck for folks, so you can refer to it and**  **19 take notes on it. And you'll notice when we**  **20 came in that we gave you a number of handouts.**  **21 So, this is all material that you can refer to**  **22 that we'll talk about here during the session** 

### Page 6

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and that will be useful for you, if you think**  **2 about things as we go forward.**  **3 So, can you guys hear me back**  **4 there in the back? No problems. Okay. So,**  **5 I mentioned earlier I can't come on Tuesdays,**  **6 because Tuesdays I actually go to New York to**  **7 teach a class there every evening and, then,**  **8 come back to work on Wednesday. So, that's**  **9 why. So, I do like to teach.**  **10 So, indulge me here, if I get a**  **11 little bit interested in what we're doing.**  **12 But, we're going to start off by talking about**  **13 what are the central air conditioner regional**  **14 standards, just remind ourselves of what we're**  **15 talking about here.**  **16 So, if we can go to the next**  **17 slide, please. So that everyone can**  **18 understand, the guiding document of all energy**  **19 efficiency appliance standards is the Energy**  **20 Policy and Conservation Act of 1975. That's**  **21 what created the ability for us to even exist**  **22 in this kind of forum.** 

### Page 7

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 That was amended in 2007 by the**  **2 Energy Independence and Security Act, which**  **3 entitled DOE to promulgate regional standards**  **4 for certain limited products. Of note to us,**  **5 we decided to come together and issue a direct**  **6 final rule under 42 U.S.C. 6295 during final**  **7 rule, which actually has the rules.**  **8 We were then sued by the American**  **9 Public Gas Association on the furnace-related**  **10 provisions. That lawsuit was settled, so now**  **11 we're only proceeding on the air conditioning**  **12 part of the regional standards.**  **13 So, let's go to the next slide.**  **14 So, what are the air conditioner regional**  **15 standards? If you look at our regs, we have**  **16 two provisions that matter and they're both**  **17 buried at 430.32, which DOE kindly makes it as**  **18 difficulty to read as possible. But it's in**  **19 Section (c) of 403.32, Section (c)(3). It**  **20 describes what will be the standards for what**  **21 we call the Southeast Region.**  **22 And it's good to remind ourselves** 

### Page 8

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of what those states are. There are a number**  **2 of them. And, basically, what it describes is**  **3 that, in the Southeast Region, those states**  **4 enumerated in the CFR, all equipment that is**  **5 a split-system air conditioner or products**  **6 that are sold or installed in that region must**  **7 be 14 SEER. So, that's the baseline there.**  **8 The next provision, next slide**  **9 please, in 430.32(c)(4), one slide back,**  **10 please, is regarding the Southwest Region.**  **11 So, that's a little more broad. Well, the**  **12 Southwest Region has only four states,**  **13 California, Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona.**  **14 Those states are required to have**  **15 both a 14 SEER split system and, also, for**  **16 single-package systems, have an EER rating of**  **17 at least 11 and for split systems, have an EER**  **18 of 12.1, if they're less than 45,000 BTUs and**  **19 11.7, if they're over 45,000 BTUs or equal to**  **20 45,000 BTUs.**  **21 So, we've set the system,**  **22 essentially, where the split systems have to** 

### Page 9

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 be 14 in the southeast and the southwest and,**  **2 in the southwest, both split systems and**  **3 single package need to have an EER value.**  **4 That is also important.**  **5 So, let's everyone remember all**  **6 that stuff now. So, let's all remember it.**  **7 Everyone here is part of making this all come**  **8 together.**  **9 So, next slide. Now, after we**  **10 came up with that regulation, we realized**  **11 there's probably some confusion in how it's**  **12 enacted. And, so, the first guidance document**  **13 you folks were given this morning relates to**  **14 our guidance describing when do these**  **15 standards take effect? What does it mean?**  **16 And, so, the question that seemed**  **17 to come up from the way the CFR language was**  **18 and the way we put other standards in the past**  **19 is, hey, does this come into effect when**  **20 things are manufactured or when installed?**  **21 And, so, what we made clear is that, under the**  **22 language of EISA, we're required to have the** 

### Page 10

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 standard be effective at the time of**  **2 installation.**  **3 So, DOE's view has been, and we**  **4 articulated before but put in this written**  **5 guidance in 2012, that the date that is**  **6 important for compliance with the standards**  **7 that go into effect on January 1, 2015, are**  **8 the date of installation of the date of**  **9 manufacture.**  **10 Next slide, please. After this,**  **11 FTC also issued their labeling rule. So, a**  **12 lot of you were probably involved in that rule**  **13 as well. And we've given you a copy of that**  **14 here, which is very important. So, that rule**  **15 lays out and gives sample energy guide labels.**  **16 And, if we could, jump over the FTC Rule,**  **17 please.**  **18 MR. AMRANE: Can we ask questions?**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **20 MR. AMRANE: You said that the**  **21 date --**  **22 MR. RAWALD: I hear Karim. So, if** 

### Page 11

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you would please, call your name out.**  **2 MR. AMRANE: Yes, Karim.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Thank you.**  **4 MR. AMRANE: But my understanding**  **5 is that, for the national standards, it's the**  **6 manufacturing date. But for the regional**  **7 standards, it's the installation date.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, Karim is**  **9 exactly correct. So, what the CFR points out**  **10 and what the statute also, in our**  **11 understanding, points out is that the**  **12 manufacturing date is important for the**  **13 national standards.**  **14 So, the national standard being 13**  **15 SEER or 14 SEER for other things that are not**  **16 part of regional standard. But for the**  **17 regional standard, it's the date of**  **18 installation. So, there is a difference**  **19 there. That is correct, Karim.**  **20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **21 Gary from the California IOUs. Can I go one**  **22 step further and ask a question?** 

### Page 12

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **2 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, following**  **3 that same line of reasoning, what is or has**  **4 traditionally been referred to as the**  **5 manufacturer, in this case, I believe is being**  **6 perceived as the vendor or installer because**  **7 they're the ones that are installing it and**  **8 they're the ones that know the application and**  **9 whether compliance is being achieved or not.**  **10 So, is it true that the entity**  **11 that has to be responsible for compliance is**  **12 the installer?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: So, that's a question**  **14 that I think we're going to talk about a lot**  **15 here. Who do we think is the appropriate**  **16 people to have dictate its compliance? There**  **17 are a lot of folks who don't agree with the**  **18 presumption that you would see the**  **19 manufacturer equal to the installer.**  **20 And we heard a lot of comments to**  **21 that and responses in 2011 NTA folks,**  **22 including AHRI and HARDI, explaining why they** 

### Page 13

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 thought there was a problem with that**  **2 particular analogy. So, I think we discuss**  **3 that more at length. So, there is a provision**  **4 in EPCA that says that a manufacturer, who I'm**  **5 describing next, includes someone who**  **6 assembles.**  **7 And, so, there is now an argument**  **8 being made that an installer can be considered**  **9 an assembler and, therefore, could be**  **10 considered a manufacturer. But I don't think**  **11 that perception's widely held. I don't think**  **12 everyone agrees with that and, so, I don't**  **13 want to put that forward as the position of**  **14 the Department right at this moment.**  **15 But I do understand what you're**  **16 saying. I think there are people who have**  **17 that as a discussion point.**  **18 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. The**  **19 reason I asked that question, made that**  **20 statement is because, previously in DOE**  **21 meetings I've heard it suggested that that was**  **22 an approach that DOE was taking with regard to** 

### Page 14

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this. But it sounds like, no, that's not**  **2 decided and it's to be discussed.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, there is**  **4 more discussion to be had. In the 2011 public**  **5 meeting, there was a rep of the DOE who did**  **6 say that we could view an installer as a**  **7 manufacturer, based on that, which engendered**  **8 all these comments back from folks in the**  **9 industry. So, it's definitely an item for**  **10 discussion but I don't want to forestall a**  **11 discussion. I want people to talk about that**  **12 during the course of this rule making.**  **13 Charlie?**  **14 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Thank you.**  **15 MR. MCCRUDDEN: This is Charlie**  **16 McCrudden with the ACCA. I think also part of**  **17 the confusion may be the walk-in**  **18 cooler/freezer rule, which treats the**  **19 assembler differently than say the**  **20 manufacturer, in other product categories.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, that's**  **22 exactly correct. And we had that discussion,** 

### Page 15

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you and I, during the walk-in cooler and**  **2 freezer amended standards meeting we recently**  **3 had. So, there is some language in the CFR**  **4 dictating that the installer of a walk-in**  **5 cooler and freezer can be considered a**  **6 manufacturer because of that fact that they**  **7 are assembling.**  **8 So, there's also some commercial**  **9 package boiler language that similarly says**  **10 that those folks that assemble those things**  **11 are denying they can be considered**  **12 manufacturers.**  **13 So, there is some language out**  **14 there on other products that we can look to to**  **15 kind of give us an idea of where we can go**  **16 here. But what I'll tell you is the table is**  **17 open and let's keep the discussion going. I**  **18 don't want to quell any thoughts here.**  **19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. So, this**  **20 is Gary again. One more question. Is DOE**  **21 constrained by the legislative language in**  **22 this regard or no or is the answer to that** 

### Page 16

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 question unclear?**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, the**  **3 purpose of this negotiation, DOE views its**  **4 authority to be as broad as necessary to**  **5 create an effective enforcement plan for the**  **6 requirements of 6295(o). So, that's what I**  **7 will tell you at this point.**  **8 But we want to hear from folks**  **9 what's practical, what's going to work and**  **10 what's going to make sense. And, so, that's**  **11 the approach we're taking here is what's going**  **12 to work the best to make an effective**  **13 enforcement plan, which is the overriding**  **14 mandate of 6295(o).**  **15 So, you folks have all got a copy**  **16 of that, hopefully, of the relevant language**  **17 of 6295(o)(6), which is the statute. So,**  **18 hopefully, that can be something that we refer**  **19 to as we talk about it here. I think that was**  **20 one of the documents that Brenda could have**  **21 handed you.**  **22 So, turning back to the Federal** 

### Page 17

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Trade Commission, if we go towards Page 20,**  **2 let's start there. And what I want folks to**  **3 see is kind of where the energy guide label is**  **4 or what FTC has recommended. So, as you can**  **5 see here, this is what the FTC has**  **6 promulgated. So, I think pull it out, so we**  **7 can see what this is for. Let's go one back,**  **8 one before this.**  **9 Okay. This would be the label for**  **10 a single-package air conditioner that is**  **11 manufactured after January 1, 2015. And**  **12 what's important is, FTC's rule is based upon**  **13 manufacturing, so they have a different label**  **14 for manufacture date. So, that's something to**  **15 keep in mind with what we're doing here.**  **16 So, their label has a picture of**  **17 the country. It lays out where it can be**  **18 installed. If you look at the efficiency**  **19 rating, it tells you what the SEER value is**  **20 and it also tells you, at the bottom here in**  **21 small print, what the unit's EER is.**  **22 That's very important because it's** 

### Page 18

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a single package. So, the applicable standard**  **2 for the region would be the EER and, so, for**  **3 here, the EER is 10.9, which is below 11. So,**  **4 it couldn't be in these four states. So, does**  **5 everyone see that? Is that large enough for**  **6 folks to understand? Okay. If we can go back**  **7 one more for this.**  **8 Okay. That's earlier. We had**  **9 that. Let's go to Page 21. Okay. Now, this**  **10 is a label that folks should be familiar with.**  **11 This is the SEER label for a split system**  **12 that's manufactured currently before the**  **13 regional standards had come into effect. It**  **14 just tells you what the SEER value is and also**  **15 says, of course, the efficiency range based on**  **16 split-system units.**  **17 So, what we understand is this is**  **18 the most common coil. So, it could be**  **19 different from that. That's that advisory**  **20 portion of this label. Next slide, please.**  **21 I'm sorry, not next slide, next page of the**  **22 PDF. Sorry about that, Jeremiah, that's my** 

### Page 19

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 fault.**  **2 Here is a little more complicated**  **3 split-system label after regional standards.**  **4 So, what it presents here is actually a SEER**  **5 value that's a range. And does everyone**  **6 understand why there would be a range?**  **7 Depends on what the indoor coil would be,**  **8 correct? So, this depends upon the coil the**  **9 contractor installs with the unit.**  **10 So, this is telling you the SEER**  **11 value could be from 13 to 14.2. So, what this**  **12 label then tells folks shows the country and**  **13 says, hey, here's the requirement, if you're**  **14 in these areas, do you have at least a 14**  **15 SEER? So, you need to make sure that you get**  **16 to this 14 level with the coil that you use.**  **17 Yes, now, Karen?**  **18 MEMBER MEYERS: So, this is Karen**  **19 with Rheem. So, that brings up an interesting**  **20 question that's arisen at our company. It**  **21 says, specifically, that it depends upon the**  **22 coil.** 

### Page 20

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **2 MEMBER MEYERS: It doesn't say it**  **3 depends upon the air mover.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **5 MEMBER MEYERS: It says it depends**  **6 upon the coil only.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **8 MEMBER MEYERS: So, I think**  **9 that's, you know, a point of clarification**  **10 that will need to be made. Does it just**  **11 depend upon the coil?**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Right. This goes**  **13 back to I think Harvey's question yesterday**  **14 which is, you know, how do we include the air**  **15 mover, the blower in this situation? And**  **16 we'll talk more about that later on today. I**  **17 think it's very important what the Department**  **18 view is there and I'm still trying to get you**  **19 guys a more definitive answer on that to help**  **20 you with that. Yes, I think that's a very**  **21 valid point. Any other questions about what**  **22 this label shows?** 

### Page 21

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: How does the consumer**  **2 determine, whether the coil, when added to**  **3 this particular piece of equipment, gets you**  **4 to 14?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Right. Folks, what**  **6 do you think?**  **7 MEMBER MEYERS: I couldn't hear**  **8 the question.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: So, Neil asked how**  **10 does the consumer know that, when they add the**  **11 coil to their condenser, they're going to get**  **12 a 14 SEER unit that's compliant with the**  **13 regulations?**  **14 MR. HURST: Either their**  **15 contractor is going to explain it to them or**  **16 they're --**  **17 MR. RAWALD: And that's John Hurst**  **18 from Lennox.**  **19 MR. HURST: Yes. I'm sorry. John**  **20 Hurst from Lennox. It's usually going to be**  **21 the contractor that would be responsible for**  **22 matching the appropriate coil with the** 

### Page 22

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 condensing unit.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, there's**  **3 no labeling mechanism that's showing, hey,**  **4 these two things together will make this.**  **5 Now, I think, if I asked Karim, he would say**  **6 that AHRI has a way of showing some things,**  **7 correct? Is that right?**  **8 MR. AMRANE: Yes. We have a**  **9 directory. Karim with AHRI. We have a**  **10 directory and its users can look it up and**  **11 print a certificate with exactly the rating of**  **12 the unit that's being installed.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: So, AHRI's**  **14 expectation would be that this information on**  **15 the condenser combined with once you know the**  **16 model number of your evaporator, you can look**  **17 on AHRI's website and then see what the SEER**  **18 value of that combination will be.**  **19 MR. AMRANE: Yes.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Harvey?**  **21 MEMBER SACHS: Harvey Sachs,**  **22 ACEEE. There is one thing really important** 

### Page 23

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 for those who haven't watched units being **2 installed. The evaporator is typically 3 shipped as a box with its plenum or surround**  **4 part of it. There's no label on the 5 evaporator that tells the customer, in any**  **6 kind of an obvious way, anything about that 7 galvanized box that's been deposited at his**  **8 door has something inside it that's a heat 9 exchanger. We don't even know that for sure**  **10 as consumers. 11 So, it's not a completely**  **12 transparent process and does rely upon the 13 contractor's claims and contract language to**  **14 assure the consumer that it has a compliant 15 evaporator.**  **16 MEMBER MEYERS: John with Lennox? 17 MR. HURST: John Hurst, with**  **18 Lennox. Agree with you a hundred percent, 19 Harvey. I think, also, even if we labeled up**  **20 the coil, the condensing unit, the vast 21 majority of consumers would never understand**  **22 what the matching up means.**

### Page 24

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: Absolutely agree.**  **2 MR. HURST: There's just such a**  **3 lack of knowledge regarding this product from**  **4 a consumer standpoint that, you know, I think**  **5 we could put every safeguard in place and, you**  **6 know, do Garanimals or yellow triangles don't**  **7 match red squares. Consumers don't get this.**  **8 And, so, my point is it's going to be**  **9 incumbent upon contractors, distributors,**  **10 manufacturers to do the right thing.**  **11 Consumers can go to a directory.**  **12 They could go to a DOE directory. They won't.**  **13 They just won't. They will have to trust**  **14 their contractor and the chain to do the right**  **15 thing.**  **16 MEMBER MEYERS: Karen, did you**  **17 have your hand up at one point? Okay.**  **18 Charlie?**  **19 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So, this is**  **20 Charlie with ACCA. I'd like to make a couple**  **21 points. One is we've all seen this label and**  **22 this label is designed for consumers to** 

### Page 25

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 compare products and compare the energy use of**  **2 products. And we've all seen this at Best**  **3 Buy. But most people don't walk into a**  **4 showroom because contractors don't usually**  **5 have showrooms. And it's hard, I think, for**  **6 FTC to apply this label to the situation where**  **7 a contractor comes into a home and helps them**  **8 sort of purchase the product.**  **9 The second thing I'll say is part**  **10 of the Energy Guide rule or the rule on this**  **11 label was the contractor has to affirmatively**  **12 provide the homeowner with this label. So,**  **13 the homeowner, and this is something that is**  **14 on the contract that they have to give, this**  **15 label to the homeowner before the purchase was**  **16 made.**  **17 Now, one way to satisfy that is to**  **18 provide the manufacturer's materials. The**  **19 manufacturers have to put that label in their**  **20 materials. So, as far as the consumer goes,**  **21 they should be getting this information.**  **22 And I'll say, contrary to John's** 

### Page 26

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 point, consumers are very savvy now and they**  **2 do go to the Internet and I wouldn't be**  **3 surprised if they are going to a directory now**  **4 because we hear that all the time.**  **5 MR. HURST: Really?**  **6 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. The**  **7 information is out there and they will go find**  **8 it. So --**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Gary, I see you**  **10 disagreeing down here?**  **11 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes. This is**  **12 Gary for the California IOUs. There's a range**  **13 of consumer behavior with respect to energy**  **14 efficiency. And, for sure, awareness is much**  **15 greater now than it was a decade ago. But our**  **16 perception is that consumers are going to be**  **17 relying on their contractor to get this right.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: So, the point I'm**  **19 making here is I want to make sure everyone's**  **20 familiar with the label. And this is**  **21 important just because it's causing discussion**  **22 already on how a label affects things. And** 

### Page 27

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this is the label we have. And, so, the point**  **2 that we got from Josh -- right, Josh?**  **3 MEMBER DORIA: No. Jordan.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Jordan. Sorry.**  **5 MEMBER DORIA: Okay.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: -- yesterday was**  **7 that, hey, what can we do to change the label,**  **8 update the label? And, so, we obviously**  **9 cannot change the label ourselves. So, this**  **10 is the label we have for you to have.**  **11 So you have to embrace this as the**  **12 reality of the playing field we're in or we**  **13 have to think about, okay, we haven't enforced**  **14 a scheme we've come up with and we want to ask**  **15 the FTC if they can come along with us and**  **16 make some changes. But that will take some**  **17 time.**  **18 And, so, this is the label that**  **19 will be in effect in the near future and, so,**  **20 we need to keep that as our reality. Yes,**  **21 Gary?**  **22 MEMBER CLARK: Gary Clark from** 

### Page 28

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Goodman Manufacturing. I think what would be**  **2 indisputable in this discussion is the fact**  **3 that most consumers do not see an energy guide**  **4 label before they buy a product.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: In this industry.**  **6 MEMBER CLARK: In this industry.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **8 MEMBER CLARK: I don't think**  **9 anybody would argue that. So, the amount of**  **10 energy you can put on how the energy guide**  **11 label is designed I think we need to keep it**  **12 in perspective --**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **14 MEMBER CLARK: -- as to, you know,**  **15 how many homeowners are actually going to see**  **16 it and whatnot. So, I wouldn't die on this**  **17 hill I guess is what I'm trying to say.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: I think it's helpful**  **19 to hear that. I think it's good to know what**  **20 folks think. Yes, Amy?**  **21 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Charlie, you**  **22 said that they're required to provide this** 

### Page 29

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 label. If they don't do that, who enforces**  **2 that? Is that an FTC enforcement?**  **3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. That's all**  **4 FTC.**  **5 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Was there a point**  **7 down here?**  **8 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes. It's Ray**  **9 Ellis from Lincoln Electric. We might be a**  **10 bit of an anomaly in this whole thing but we**  **11 actually have people on staff that also go out**  **12 and inspect units and make sure. And, in**  **13 fact, the homeowners come to us beforehand and**  **14 so that we supply them with the material and**  **15 the information they need to be able to make**  **16 those choices.**  **17 And we also work with the**  **18 contractors. We have a pretty aggressive**  **19 energy efficiency program in the northwest to**  **20 our wholesale power supply that we pay in our**  **21 wholesale rate that we use to subsidize or**  **22 give rebates to the homeowners.** 

### Page 30

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, their incentive is to come to**  **2 us to ask which units need to be put in place,**  **3 so that they can receive that incentive. And**  **4 it sometimes is upwards of several thousand**  **5 dollars.**  **6 And, so, we try to do that and,**  **7 you know, we're small. And, you know, it's**  **8 not the same across the country for other**  **9 utilities but, certainly, we have a pretty**  **10 intimate relationship with our members because**  **11 they're not customers. They're members. They**  **12 own our electric co-op.**  **13 And, so, we are, you know, kind of**  **14 hand-in-hand in those whole process. So, we**  **15 try to incentivize our homeowners, you know,**  **16 obviously, and let them know what is eligible**  **17 for these rebates and they have to meet these**  **18 standards. You know?**  **19 MR. RAWALD: You mentioned the**  **20 word "inspection," so do you do that in order**  **21 to see if people are able to get these**  **22 rebates?** 

### Page 31

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER ELLIS: We do.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **3 MEMBER ELLIS: We go out. Either**  **4 we contract with an individual that's**  **5 qualified to inspect them after they've been**  **6 installed or we have somebody on staff that**  **7 does so.**  **8 MEMBER GIBBONS: This is John from**  **9 Carrier. In those situations, the inspector**  **10 or yourself, somebody has to match paperwork?**  **11 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes.**  **12 MEMBER GIBBONS: Don't they**  **13 usually look for the AHRI Certificate to make**  **14 sure it's a --**  **15 MEMBER ELLIS: Yes. Yes. Yes.**  **16 MEMBER CLARK: And it's not the**  **17 Energy Guide label that they're looking for,**  **18 up inside the unit. This is Gary Clark.**  **19 MEMBER NOLL: Elizabeth, NRDC. A**  **20 question that reminded me, the AHRI Directory,**  **21 is that available for everyone or only AHRI**  **22 members?** 

### Page 32

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MEMBER CLARK: It's public. **2 MEMBER NOLL: It's public, too. 3 Yes. All right.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Now, as Karim is 5 saying, affirming that it is online and**  **6 publicly available. Dave, did you have 7 something?**  **8 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Well, it's 9 just but only AHRI member information is**  **10 published on AHRI. 11 MR. RAWALD: So, if you're not an**  **12 AHRI member -- 13 MR. AMRANE: No, no.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Everybody? 15 MR. AMRANE: Make a distinction.**  **16 It's open to anybody who wants to certify the 17 part with AHRI, that's members and nonmembers**  **18 of AHRI. 19 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Correct. But**  **20 member data is only -- 21 MR. AMRANE: It is only those who**  **22 participate in our certification program.**

### Page 33

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 That's correct.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Right. You know,**  **3 Karim, it might be helpful for you to think**  **4 about whether you could send the groups some**  **5 of the information about the certification**  **6 program and show us the actual database.**  **7 People can get familiar with it. Okay? That**  **8 would be helpful to put down on a list of**  **9 things to do.**  **10 MR. AMRANE: Are there other**  **11 questions on the FTC label? Yes, Glenn?**  **12 MEMBER HOURAHAN: I have a quick**  **13 question for Ray. It's a clarification. You**  **14 were talking about --**  **15 MR. RAWALD: And that's Glenn from**  **16 --**  **17 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Yes. Glenn**  **18 Hourahan from ACCA. You were talking about**  **19 your utility does verification checks. For**  **20 how many or what percentage of the total sales**  **21 to your stakeholders do you think you're**  **22 actually seeing? So, in other words, not all** 

### Page 34

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of the homes that are replacing equipment are**  **2 going through you. They're going through**  **3 their own contractors outside of your system.**  **4 MEMBER ELLIS: Well, you'd have to**  **5 understand our geographical area and we're**  **6 pretty remote. Almost a hundred percent come**  **7 through us. And, in fact, we just purchased**  **8 a propane company and have extended that.**  **9 We're adding an HVAC division to that, so that**  **10 we can expand the services to our members, so**  **11 that person that we're hiring, he also is**  **12 qualified to install and inspect.**  **13 And they pass a certification test**  **14 through Bonneville that allows them to make**  **15 those be certified to get that rebate money**  **16 back from Bonneville that we paid to them in**  **17 wholesale rates.**  **18 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **19 Gary from California IOUs. In response to**  **20 that question, I think the contractor**  **21 participation and utility incentive programs**  **22 varies depending upon the locality and the** 

### Page 35

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 geography. So, for a smaller utility in a**  **2 more rural area, it's possible to achieve a**  **3 very high level of participation.**  **4 But for big utilities like ours,**  **5 in urban areas, the participation in rebate**  **6 programs is much lower and I'd speculate in**  **7 the range of 20 to 30 percent. So, if a**  **8 contractor wishes to avoid the building**  **9 inspection process, wishes to avoid the cost**  **10 of buying the permit and perhaps replacing the**  **11 indoor coil they'll avoid participating in our**  **12 program and we just won't see them. So, there**  **13 is a fairly high level of nonparticipation in**  **14 these incentive programs.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: We have Harvey and,**  **16 then there's Jeff.**  **17 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey and**  **18 I want to make explicit something that has**  **19 just been floating in the background. the**  **20 utility incentive programs, in -- always, if**  **21 they're rate-pair funded, are about equipment**  **22 that's well above minimum requirements.** 

### Page 36

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The issues we're really looking at**  **2 here in enforcement are about equipment which**  **3 is at the minimum. And, in 20 years or so,**  **4 listening to utilities and their perspective**  **5 on the world, about the last thing they want**  **6 to do short of having a Chernobyl is to get**  **7 between the contractor and the customer on**  **8 installation of minimum-efficiency equipment.**  **9 They don't want to be the cop.**  **10 So, they have a right to audit**  **11 something for which they're paying out money**  **12 but I suspect we'll find very few investor**  **13 owned utilities that have any interest in**  **14 doing an inspection of a minimum-efficiency**  **15 piece of equipment. And I'm seeing Glenn's**  **16 head nod there. That's building inspectors,**  **17 if anybody.**  **18 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, Harvey,**  **19 this is Gary. You're absolutely correct.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: And, Ray, do you**  **21 agree with that point as well?**  **22 MEMBER ELLIS: I would suppose.** 

### Page 37

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 There's a pretty big difference between**  **2 cooperatives and IOUs --**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **4 MEMBER ELLIS: -- and**  **5 fundamentally different in that respect**  **6 because, like I said, we do have a really**  **7 intimate relationship with our members. And**  **8 we send, you know, we correspond with them on**  **9 a monthly basis if not more often.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: So you have higher**  **11 interest in your organization with possible**  **12 different mode efficiencies and systems than**  **13 an IOU, you think?**  **14 MEMBER ELLIS: I would think so.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **16 MEMBER ELLIS: I mean it's too our**  **17 benefit as well. You'd have to understand the**  **18 rate structures in the northwest on what**  **19 incentivizes us now to try to do as much**  **20 energy efficiency as possible. But we've been**  **21 at it for, you know, 20 years.**  **22 And, then, like I said, fairly** 

### Page 38

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 aggressive. You know, our little co-op, we've**  **2 got about 4200 members and we spend probably**  **3 upwards of $200,000 a year on energy**  **4 efficiency in our program. And, so, we're**  **5 trying to devise ways to increase that, if we**  **6 can.**  **7 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey**  **8 again. I think, for those who've not been**  **9 involved in this utility program area, there's**  **10 an important point to be made. Gary can't**  **11 walk into his public utility commission and**  **12 ask for incentive money that he can pass along**  **13 to consumers and then recover in his rates for**  **14 meeting the law.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **16 MEMBER SACHS: He can do that for**  **17 stuff that's really much better to try to**  **18 change the market.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Back here and you**  **20 introduced yourself yesterday but I forget**  **21 your name.**  **22 MR. DENNIS: This is Keith Dennis** 

### Page 39

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with the NRECA. So, I'm not -- this hasn't**  **2 really been discussed but my assumption is**  **3 that this is for minimum efficiency air**  **4 conditioners. But, you know, we are in the**  **5 context of potentially new laws that are going**  **6 to be, you know, having other places where**  **7 there may be some sort of incentives for**  **8 efficiency.**  **9 And I guess maybe a question for**  **10 the group is, if the model works for this,**  **11 will other areas like the northwest decide**  **12 that they might need some regional standards**  **13 and manufacturers are on board with them and**  **14 there may be situations where people are**  **15 putting in above minimum for credits for**  **16 different regulations.**  **17 So, in the broader context, I**  **18 think that this is limited in this instance.**  **19 But it possibly could have broader**  **20 implications for compliance with regional**  **21 groups who decide that they want minimum**  **22 standards as well.** 

### Page 40

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I mean I think it's all fluid.**  **2 And right now there are certain regulatory**  **3 schemes that say, you know, you can't go**  **4 above, mandate above minimum standards and all**  **5 this other stuff. But one of our interests is**  **6 that this may set a precedent for other types**  **7 of programs and some of those may involve**  **8 utility incentives or combine, on a voluntary**  **9 basis, for credits, for instance.**  **10 So, I know that we're trying to be**  **11 very narrow here, but just kind of a thought**  **12 for a group, if that's something that --**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think that**  **14 what you're saying is you want us to be**  **15 sensitive to the fact that this could have**  **16 more far-reaching implications than what we**  **17 initially were thinking about.**  **18 MR. DENNIS: Right. So, the**  **19 standards aren't for just minimum-efficiency**  **20 things. In this instance, that's true but I**  **21 wouldn't dismiss that, you know, there is**  **22 information that we look at when we do** 

### Page 41

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 incentives that are going to translate into**  **2 the information that we're going to get in**  **3 order to potentially comply with other things.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **5 MR. DENNIS: So, the process is**  **6 the same, in terms of the relationship between**  **7 the data that we get, the audits that we have**  **8 to do for potentially non-minimum-standard**  **9 things.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Yes. So, what I'm**  **11 hearing from the full discussion here is some**  **12 ideas for public awareness, as well as some**  **13 ideas for possible consequences, both positive**  **14 and possibly negative for complying with the**  **15 standard. I think it's helpful for us, as we**  **16 frame our bigger discussions.**  **17 So, these are all good talking**  **18 points we can come back to. So, getting us**  **19 back to the labeling issue -- yes, Gary?**  **20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary.**  **21 If I could add one point, just to be clear**  **22 about what we do and don't do in California.** 

### Page 42

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Harvey is absolutely correct. We can't give**  **2 rebates for products that just meet the**  **3 federal or state standards.**  **4 On the other hand, we do have a**  **5 Codes and Standards Program for which we're**  **6 subsidized through rates to provide and**  **7 ordered by the Public Utilities Commission to**  **8 operate. That's one of the reasons why I'm**  **9 here.**  **10 Part of that program is what we**  **11 call a compliance enhancement program. So,**  **12 through that, we work with the California**  **13 Energy Commission to provide outreach and**  **14 education to the market to facilitate**  **15 compliance. So, it's not inspection. It's**  **16 not doing the job of the building inspector or**  **17 being police.**  **18 But there is an educational effort**  **19 to try and make sure that those responsible**  **20 for compliance are aware of what they're**  **21 supposed to do.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Okay. That's all** 

### Page 43

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 very helpful information for us, as we frame**  **2 the discussion later on. So, going back to**  **3 kind of a refresher, we discussed labeling**  **4 rule.**  **5 Next, please. So, as I mentioned**  **6 earlier and folks asked yesterday, so we had**  **7 this furnace litigation -- yes?**  **8 MEMBER NOLL: Elizabeth with NRDC.**  **9 Is there any data that supports the compliance**  **10 awareness part and the effectiveness that**  **11 would be useful for this group, in terms of --**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Are you asking that**  **13 question of Gary?**  **14 MEMBER NOLL: Yes.**  **15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: I am sorry,**  **16 Elizabeth. Can you repeat the question?**  **17 MEMBER NOLL: Is there any data**  **18 that shows how the effectiveness of that**  **19 compliance awareness program would be useful**  **20 for this group, if it were to translate more**  **21 broadly?**  **22 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes. The** 

### Page 44

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 California Energy Commission collects data on**  **2 compliance in general, and we're in the**  **3 process of trying to collect some data on how**  **4 our efforts improve that compliance.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: And, so, Gary**  **6 mentioned the California Energy Commission,**  **7 and I also have Dave Hungerford on the line.**  **8 So, perhaps he and you could together get some**  **9 of that data for Elizabeth that we are**  **10 interested in, for the group?**  **11 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Sure.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, next**  **13 slide. So, part of the furnace litigation**  **14 settlement, this really is mostly ancillary to**  **15 what we did here. What's important is that**  **16 the results of the settlement was that it got**  **17 rid of that furnace portion of the regional**  **18 standards.**  **19 But it did create two things that**  **20 are of note to this group. So, as part of the**  **21 settlement, DOE agreed to clarify the position**  **22 regarding enforcement of regional standards** 

### Page 45

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with distributors. And, also, to exercise our**  **2 enforcement discretion by not seeking civil**  **3 penalties for violations of the regional**  **4 standards for products manufactured before the**  **5 compliance date. So, installed after or**  **6 installed before.**  **7 Next slide. So, I'll give you the**  **8 two guidance statements, or the two policy**  **9 statements, we call them. They're policy**  **10 statements from the Department explaining what**  **11 we mean here. And, so, the first one is this,**  **12 regarding distributors. And that's very**  **13 important to John Melchi.**  **14 So, DOE stated that we will not**  **15 assert full penalty authority. That means we**  **16 will not collect money. We will not collect**  **17 fines for violation of the regional standards**  **18 for central air conditioners, so limited to**  **19 central air conditioners, as described and we**  **20 talked about, to charge the distributors. So,**  **21 those distributors will not be charged money**  **22 for violation of that. That's all we said in** 

### Page 46

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that conference. Yes, John -- John Hurst?**  **2 MR. HURST: Just for**  **3 clarification, because I believe the agreement**  **4 was distributors acting solely as**  **5 distributors. Lennox is a distributors, but**  **6 we're excluded from that.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Right. That's a very**  **8 important point, John. So, what we said was,**  **9 at the time, at 43 U.S.C. 5291, 14, in an**  **10 explanation, I'll give you the definition.**  **11 You'll see that that means folks who only wear**  **12 the hat of a distributor, and are not multi**  **13 hatted. That's why it's important. Very good**  **14 point, John.**  **15 Next slide. So, we also issued**  **16 this policy statement, same day, regarding an**  **17 18-month grace period. What we said was that**  **18 there's a lot of uncertainty in the market.**  **19 We really don't want to stop things from**  **20 happening, because we know it's very late in**  **21 the game.**  **22 Let's go ahead and what we're** 

### Page 47

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 going to agree to do is for 18 months. So,**  **2 until July 1, 2016, we will not bring actions**  **3 for units that are installed that are not**  **4 complying with regional standards that are**  **5 manufactured before January 1, 2015. So, if**  **6 you have a unit manufactured December 31st of**  **7 this year, you can go ahead and install it in**  **8 any region until July 1st of 2016, and it**  **9 won't be a violation and we won't pursue that**  **10 violation. So, that's what we agreed to.**  **11 Now, if you make one on January**  **12 1st and it's noncompliant with the regional**  **13 standard, and you install it on January 2nd of**  **14 2015, we do and can and will take an action**  **15 against those. So that's the guideline here.**  **16 We said things manufactured before the**  **17 compliance date that are installed after**  **18 compliance date, for 18 months, we will not**  **19 take action against that limited group. Yes,**  **20 Gary?**  **21 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **22 Gary for the IOUs again. My question is** 

### Page 48

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 against whom have you stated you will not take**  **2 action?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: We have not**  **4 identified a party. So, that's the question**  **5 for this group. What is going to be an**  **6 effective enforcement mechanism for that?**  **7 And, so, we need to talk about what would be**  **8 an action and how we'd want to take it. So,**  **9 let's open up for discussion.**  **10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. So, I**  **11 point out that the manufacturer and**  **12 distributor probably don't know where the unit**  **13 is going. So, it makes total sense that they**  **14 would not be held responsible through that**  **15 time period.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: So, that's a very**  **17 arguable point. Obviously, I will be hearing**  **18 it for much of the impending course of this**  **19 negotiation.**  **20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: And you can see**  **21 where I'm going with this. The contractor**  **22 does know and, at least in my opinion, should** 

### Page 49

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 be held responsible.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **3 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Because, if**  **4 there's no enforcement, there's likely to be**  **5 little compliance.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: I think you're**  **7 identifying some of the difference in opinion**  **8 that we will be seeing more vividly as we get**  **9 along here. So, Elizabeth, you had your hand**  **10 up, and then we had the National Homebuilder**  **11 gentleman.**  **12 MEMBER NOLL: So, Elizabeth. Can**  **13 we go back to the slide prior?**  **14 MR. RAWALD: The distributor one?**  **15 MEMBER NOLL: The distributor.**  **16 So, how is that -- is that for distributors in**  **17 this 18-month grace period or is that --**  **18 MR. RAWALD: No. We're saying,**  **19 for the purpose of regional standards. So,**  **20 our hands are tied here in the group. We**  **21 could not, in any way, decide to do something**  **22 as an enforcement plan that would assess civil** 

### Page 50

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 penalties, fines against distributors who are**  **2 in the chain of marketing here for this.**  **3 MEMBER NOLL: So, it's just civil**  **4 penalties, and it's forever but that --**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Well, I don't want to**  **6 say forever. But for purposes of regional**  **7 standards, it hasn't met it currently. So,**  **8 they could be changed again later on and this**  **9 could evolve. But the current regional**  **10 standard, as promulgated under 403.32(c)(3),**  **11 which were the ones that are applicable on**  **12 January 1, 2015, those could change. You**  **13 know, the DOE could have new ones in 2020 or**  **14 something like that. So, I don't want to give**  **15 old scenarios.**  **16 MEMBER NOLL: Okay. So, in the**  **17 context of what we are developing here --**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **19 MEMBER NOLL: -- distributors**  **20 cannot have civil penalties, but could be**  **21 amended in the rule making in the future?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Sure.** 

### Page 51

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER NOLL: And is that, then,**  **2 making distributors -- I mean, what would then**  **3 be -- they still have rules and**  **4 responsibilities in this?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Right. I think**  **6 that's open for discussion in the group. I**  **7 definitely want to hear it.**  **8 MEMBER NOLL: But they have no --**  **9 there's no stick that could be attached to**  **10 this?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Well, sticks can be**  **12 different things, and we'll talk about that in**  **13 the next slide portion.**  **14 MEMBER NOLL: Okay.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: So, I don't think the**  **16 only stick the Department has is money. But**  **17 what we've agreed to in the settlement**  **18 agreement, what we've announced is there will**  **19 be no monetary fines assessed against**  **20 distributors who wear the sole of distributor,**  **21 as John Hurst explained. So, the folks that**  **22 really John and Steve represent. So, those** 

### Page 52

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 folks will not be charged money, as a result**  **2 of this particular situation right here with**  **3 the regional standards. Does that make sense,**  **4 Elizabeth?**  **5 MEMBER NOLL: Yes.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Tim?**  **7 MEMBER BALLO: Was someone in**  **8 front of me?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: They're not raising**  **10 their hand now. So, you're next in line.**  **11 MEMBER BALLO: So, I have a**  **12 question about this. As I read the policy**  **13 statement, it sounded a lot less like a rule**  **14 to me than you're saying it now does. You**  **15 seem to be saying that barring a change in the**  **16 CFR, DOE will not, absolutely will not enforce**  **17 against distributors?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, policies**  **19 are not CFR. You're correct, Tim, sort of**  **20 from administrative perspective. What we're**  **21 saying is we, in the enforcement group, we've**  **22 agreed. We've entered a settlement agreement** 

### Page 53

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to end litigation that we won't do this. So,**  **2 what I will tell you is that we're going to**  **3 honor that agreement.**  **4 And, so, we've taken a policy**  **5 statement. So, even if we were to come from**  **6 the regulations saying, hey, we're going to go**  **7 ahead and do something with distributors, the**  **8 policy statement says we are not doing it to**  **9 enforce these regional standards to assess**  **10 civil penalties against these distributors.**  **11 So, that's what our policy is going to be.**  **12 That's our enforcement policy, so we've agreed**  **13 to that fact.**  **14 So we could come together and**  **15 distributors could say, you know, we don't**  **16 want that anymore. It's okay. Or we could**  **17 change that. I think it needs something more**  **18 to do to come together, because we have an**  **19 agreement that we've entered into.**  **20 MEMBER NOLL: Well, we are at the**  **21 table.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: So, something for you** 

### Page 54

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to think about, Tim. I know this is causing**  **2 a lot of thought.**  **3 MEMBER BALLO: It sure sounds like**  **4 a rule making to me, then.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: You know, so, the**  **6 idea of enforcement is that we have, the**  **7 enforcement always has discretion. If you**  **8 have a case, you can follow up on a case, if**  **9 you want. What we're saying is we will not**  **10 bring cases, in these instances it's against**  **11 those people. I'm sorry. I forget your name**  **12 from yesterday.**  **13 MR. SURRENA: It's okay. Don**  **14 Surrena, National Association of Homebuilders.**  **15 And I'm not nearly as versed in this as my**  **16 esteemed colleagues here are with all the CFRs**  **17 and the different things. But I've seen a**  **18 couple things that have made this more**  **19 complicated, in my brain. One, that --**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Everyone's brain,**  **21 just so you know.**  **22 MR. SURRENA: -- the labeling,** 

### Page 55

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 instead of being a number, is now a range.**  **2 And the fact that equipment, if it had to be**  **3 a 14 SEER, that's the least that we put in.**  **4 If you change the coil, you were just putting**  **5 a better carburetor on that engine to give it**  **6 more horsepower. But that seems to be a horse**  **7 that's already left the barn, and it can't be**  **8 changed.**  **9 But that complicating factor has**  **10 made all this point on direction as to who's**  **11 responsible for it, and it's the very end of**  **12 it. So, it's either going to be the consumer,**  **13 who does it on their own, or the installer.**  **14 And that's just the onerous size of that to**  **15 regulate it is mind boggling. I don't know**  **16 how that's to be solved.**  **17 But I don't think the end of the**  **18 this rainbow is the consumer and the**  **19 installation contractor. I just I'm sitting**  **20 here going that can't be the direction we're**  **21 going here. It sounds that way to me.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Well, what I say is** 

### Page 56

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the Department doesn't want to foreclose any**  **2 directions at all. But we have what we've**  **3 said before, and where we are. And I want to**  **4 be at least sensitive to that, as we discuss**  **5 here's what the playing field is at the**  **6 moment. Let's go ahead and see what we can do**  **7 with these guys who are in the field and can**  **8 we make this work or not? We'll go from**  **9 there. Yes, Chuck?**  **10 MEMBER WHITE: So, a clarification**  **11 --**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **13 MEMBER WHITE: You didn't say you**  **14 wouldn't enforce it. You said you wouldn't**  **15 seek civil penalties. So, that doesn't mean**  **16 you can't go out and talk to people that are**  **17 selling wrong products.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: You're one hundred**  **19 percent correct.**  **20 MEMBER WHITE: So, there's a**  **21 distinction there. It's not that they're not**  **22 going to enforce it. You're just not going to** 

### Page 57

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have to pay any money, if you're in trouble.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Right. The**  **3 Department's policy is limited to stay of**  **4 collection of civil penalties.**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: If you're a**  **6 distributor. So, the contractor obviously**  **7 plays an important role and it's up to him to**  **8 make sure that the components comply. But the**  **9 contractor doesn't hatch these out of an egg**  **10 in his basement. So, he has to get the**  **11 equipment from a distributor.**  **12 So, if we had a distributor that**  **13 has old product, the contractor's faced with**  **14 a lot of issues. And we touched on yesterday**  **15 internet sales is a huge issue. So, the**  **16 contractor has some responsibility here, but**  **17 his life is going to get more difficult.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: You know, from my**  **19 point of view, and I don't know about other**  **20 folks, I would be interested to hear about how**  **21 much internet sales there are and how that**  **22 impacts contractors and installers, because it** 

### Page 58

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 seems to me that, even if a consumer buys a**  **2 unit off the internet, they still need someone**  **3 intelligent enough to install that thing for**  **4 them. So, there's still some installer**  **5 involved in it. So, I don't want to get into**  **6 it right now. I do not want to give the**  **7 indication to sit around and talk about that.**  **8 MR. CALABRESE: Dave Calabrese,**  **9 Daiken Corporation. I thought that the policy**  **10 inhibits civil and criminal penalties.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: The Department has no**  **12 jurisdiction criminally.**  **13 MR. CALABRESE: Right.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: So, we've always say**  **15 we will not assess civil penalties. And, like**  **16 anything in former presentations, you'll**  **17 understand that civil penalties are a part of**  **18 what we do. And I think you may be familiar**  **19 from your AHRI days that we use them quite a**  **20 bit. And, so, we'll talk about that. But**  **21 what we said was limit only the civil**  **22 penalties. Any other questions? This is the** 

### Page 59

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 last slide in this presentation. So, any**  **2 other questions left? Karen, you're raising**  **3 two hands.**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes. So --**  **5 MR. RAWALD: You have a lot of**  **6 questions.**  **7 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes. So, this is**  **8 Karen with Rheem. So, did the Department**  **9 define what a violation is? What does a**  **10 violation mean?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: No. It's got a**  **12 simple answer. No. So, the question for the**  **13 group is do we want to define it? What term**  **14 do we want to define? So, the term violation**  **15 in the statute, if you look in your copy of**  **16 6295(o)(6), it discusses violation somewhere**  **17 I'm sure.**  **18 We'll discuss that later on in the**  **19 equipment conditions, they're also in there.**  **20 But, no, the word violation itself is not**  **21 defined. There's a dictionary definition for**  **22 it. But, in this context, it's not defined.** 

### Page 60

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Any other question on this list? Yes, Matt?**  **2 MEMBER LATTANZI: Matt Lattanzi,**  **3 Nordyne. As we were going through a lot of**  **4 the stuff, we touched a lot on the energy**  **5 guide label and 14 SEER and coils and air**  **6 movers and we kind of circled back a little to**  **7 discussions we were having yesterday. What is**  **8 the definition of a 14 SEER? And I think**  **9 where we ended it yesterday is that's one of**  **10 the takeaways, that we need DOE to answer that**  **11 question.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **13 MEMBER LATTANZI: So, my**  **14 assumption is there will be a guidance**  **15 document forthcoming that's going to answer**  **16 that question at some point. The reason for**  **17 my comment, and where I'm going with this is**  **18 there's ramifications to the answer of that**  **19 question well prior to 1/1/2015 --**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Sure.**  **21 MEMBER LATTANZI: -- in the**  **22 marketplace.** 

### Page 61

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Well, that's the**  **2 question today. Right. So, the question is**  **3 what's 12 SEER? What's 13 SEER? I mean the**  **4 same question.**  **5 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, I think we**  **6 have an understanding of 12 and 13. It's 14**  **7 SEER I think is the big question.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Go ahead.**  **9 MEMBER LATTANZI: And where I'm**  **10 going with is do you have a feel for when we**  **11 can expect to see that guidance?**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, what I**  **13 think is I should be able to get at least some**  **14 answer this afternoon on some of this. But**  **15 we'll talk more about what that answer will**  **16 be. I'll try to get somebody this afternoon**  **17 to come down and talk us through what we've**  **18 got there.**  **19 MEMBER LATTANZI: Thank you.**  **20 That's very big for us.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Any other**  **22 question on kind of where the regional** 

### Page 62

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 standards have come from, where they are and**  **2 what we've said about them at this point?**  **3 Okay. So, are you guys ready to jump to the**  **4 next show or do you want to take a break?**  **5 It's been only 45 minutes, so I can keep**  **6 talking.**  **7 Okay, so for the uninitiated,**  **8 DOE's energy appliance efficiency program is**  **9 based on two or three different parts of CFR.**  **10 We have part 429, which discusses basically**  **11 certification and enforcement, what we're**  **12 going to do; 430, which lays out what the**  **13 standard test procedures are for consumer**  **14 products and 431, which are commercial and**  **15 industrial equipment.**  **16 For our purposes here, 431 doesn't**  **17 matter, because we're all talking about**  **18 consumer products. So, the things we care**  **19 about are in 429 and 430. Go to the next**  **20 slide, please.**  **21 So, there are parties that define**  **22 EPCA and those are very important for purposes** 

### Page 63

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of enforcement, and we discussed them a little**  **2 bit earlier. But he main party under EPCA is**  **3 the manufacturer and those persons are people**  **4 who manufacture and assemble, produce, or**  **5 import.**  **6 So, we, in DOE, in the enforcement**  **7 scheme, we treat someone who imports something**  **8 as the same thing as someone who builds**  **9 something domestically. So, they're both**  **10 manufacturers in our eyes and we treat them**  **11 the same for all our enforcement provisions.**  **12 That's a very important point to us.**  **13 So, another entity that has a lot**  **14 of importance and is important in this**  **15 industry, as well, I think are private**  **16 labelers. Those are folks who own a brand or**  **17 trademark but they don't actually manufacture**  **18 the parts that have that brand or trademark.**  **19 So, those folks have some legal responsibility**  **20 as well under EPCA.**  **21 So, next slide. We have retailers**  **22 who are defined. Those are like your big box** 

### Page 64

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 stores, our Best Buys. So, those are folks**  **2 who buy consumer product but they're not going**  **3 to use it. They're going to sell it to**  **4 somebody else, probably. So, somebody else is**  **5 then going to use it. So, that's the case**  **6 where the retailer is.**  **7 And distributors are folks who are**  **8 not manufacturers or retailers. So, that's**  **9 why it's important. A distributor, when you**  **10 look at the word distributor, you have to say**  **11 it first. Are they a manufacturer, like**  **12 Lennox? Then they are not a distributor.**  **13 Are they a retailer, like Best**  **14 Buy, so they can't be a distributor? And,**  **15 then, if they are not one of those other two**  **16 entities, then they could a distributor, if**  **17 the consumer product is delivered to them and**  **18 they sell them, because they're going to go**  **19 sell them to somebody else. So, they're a**  **20 middleman in the operation. So, does that**  **21 make sense, all these rules?**  **22 So, those are the rules we've** 

### Page 65

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 defined. Now, there are other roles that are**  **2 in this rule that we have before us that are**  **3 not defined. So, I pitched yesterday of**  **4 possibly discussing definitions for those.**  **5 Yes?**  **6 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena, NAHB.**  **7 Is there a warranty limit that would make you**  **8 a distributor?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: No. So, this is the**  **10 sole amount that Congress told us. Congress**  **11 told us, this is what they are. So, there's**  **12 no number. This is the exact language from**  **13 the statute.**  **14 MR. SURRENA: So, if you're a**  **15 contractor and you buy five units and then**  **16 through the years you sell them, you have now**  **17 become a distributor?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Well, the question is,**  **19 what you're doing is distribution of commerce**  **20 and is the consumer product delivered? It's**  **21 your purpose of selling that. Yes. There's**  **22 an argument there that you could be considered** 

### Page 66

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a distributor. So, --**  **2 MR. SURRENA: Thank you.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Any other questions?**  **4 Anybody? Karen, question? Okay. Charlie?**  **5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie with ACCA.**  **6 So, in light of the comment there -- no, not**  **7 going to ask it. I'm not going to ask it.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. They make**  **9 statutes hard for a reason, right? John?**  **10 MR. HURST: John Hurst, with**  **11 Lennox. It'd just like to make clarification.**  **12 In some of the comments that I read the last**  **13 time around, they talked about big-box**  **14 retailers. Big-box retailers don't take**  **15 possession of the equipment. So, if there's**  **16 any confusion as to how to enforce through a**  **17 big-box retailer, the contractor runs the**  **18 ticket through the big-box retailer. None of**  **19 the big-box-retailer programs takes possession**  **20 of the equipment.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Yes. I'm not**  **22 familiar with their interactions at all in** 

### Page 67

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this program. So, I'm very curious to hear**  **2 about that, and what you are saying. So, I**  **3 don't really know how they fit in this chain**  **4 of events.**  **5 So, next slide, please. So, the**  **6 key term after that is distribution in**  **7 commerce. What does that mean? It means to**  **8 sell. It means to import. So, here we have**  **9 import appearing again. It means introduce,**  **10 or deliver production to commerce or hold for**  **11 sale distribution.**  **12 So, it's not just selling. It's a**  **13 lot of other things that come into possibly**  **14 distributing to commerce. So, we're sensitive**  **15 to this term, because distribution in commerce**  **16 in a triggering event for a lot of things that**  **17 we do in enforcement outside of the usual**  **18 standards context. So, that's a big important**  **19 event for us, are you distributing in**  **20 commerce? That means you're doing things that**  **21 we are concerned about.**  **22 Next slide, please. So, our** 

### Page 68

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 program is built around to cover many products**  **2 and equipment. And the number of models that**  **3 we cover in the course of that are, you can**  **4 imagine, infinite. And, so, the best way for**  **5 us to encourage compliance with that is**  **6 through a self-certification program.**  **7 So, the cornerstone of our**  **8 enforcement program is that manufacturers, so**  **9 either those people that are making it or**  **10 importing it or assembling or producing it,**  **11 are required to certify the compliance of**  **12 their products with our standards. So, they**  **13 have to actually tell us, the Department, I'm**  **14 building Model XYZ. Model XYZ performs as**  **15 required and here's its actual performance**  **16 data or numbers. So, it's a spreadsheet the**  **17 fill out with that type of information.**  **18 So, they submit that every year.**  **19 You tell us about your parts that your**  **20 currently producing. So, we keep track of**  **21 everything that's out there. And the point of**  **22 that is to rely upon manufacturers to be doing** 

### Page 69

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the right thing, in that particular instance.**  **2 And then, of course, we go back and edit those**  **3 or we audit those. Excuse me.**  **4 But folks are rating their**  **5 efficiency. And they have to base it upon**  **6 something. And, so, they have to do it based**  **7 upon testing, or the use of an alternative**  **8 estimation tool. Now, in the context of**  **9 central air conditioning, we allow what's**  **10 called altered rating method and it has to be**  **11 approved by the Department.**  **12 So, folks that are certifying**  **13 their central air conditioning can do either**  **14 testing of their units, or actually do this**  **15 modeling, as long as it's been approved by the**  **16 Department. And you're certifying your base**  **17 model.**  **18 Next slide, when the base model is**  **19 certified, it goes on our database. Here we**  **20 have a public database. So, it is somewhat**  **21 similar to, in some ways, to AHRI's database,**  **22 only it covers many more parts and it lists** 

### Page 70

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 items by products.**  **2 Next slide. Here's an example of**  **3 our central air conditioning split system**  **4 amount. We have 1.6 million models currently**  **5 in there. What you'll see is that, actually,**  **6 those are base models and a lot of wildcards.**  **7 So, the actual permutations are quite large of**  **8 models that we have matching. We always match**  **9 the outdoor unit with the indoor unit and,**  **10 possibly, the air mover, which has come up**  **11 here quite a bit, and gives you the cooling**  **12 capacity as well as the SEER value, which is**  **13 important.**  **14 So, that's information we**  **15 collection and we put out there for the**  **16 public. And, so, the point with that is okay,**  **17 here's what the manufacturers certify their**  **18 part will do. Next slide.**  **19 MR. EISNER: So, this is another**  **20 place where the consumer can go to find out**  **21 the SEER value?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Absolutely.** 

### Page 71

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Absolutely. But, if you go back, go back one**  **2 slide. I'm sorry. Right there, Jeremiah.**  **3 The one thing that makes this not as**  **4 transparent as some people would like is this**  **5 use of wildcards, right, because that might**  **6 cause people to go, okay, where am I on this**  **7 wildcard issue? So, let's be sensitive to**  **8 that. I mean we do allow the use of**  **9 wildcards. They are used regularly.**  **10 Now, AHRI does feed their database**  **11 into our database. So, that's how we get the**  **12 AHRI member or AHRI certified program, even**  **13 ours. But we also require every non-AHRI**  **14 member that you provide your information to**  **15 us. So, non-AHRI members are also on our**  **16 database.**  **17 MR. EISNER: Why do you not**  **18 include the label in the record?**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Why do we not include**  **20 the label? So, we have not done that. And,**  **21 actually, none of these fields are actually**  **22 active at all. People can't actually -- So,** 

### Page 72

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 unlike AHRI, where you can put that in a field**  **2 and get a certification, we don't have that**  **3 technology. I we have is simply the**  **4 information. So, we don't provide either one**  **5 of those items. There's no why to it. We**  **6 just don't.**  **7 MR. EISNER: And is there any way**  **8 to do a comparative analysis of the number,**  **9 which as the sliding scale that's on the**  **10 label?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So, I'm not**  **12 sure what you're saying.**  **13 MR. EISNER: To compare it to**  **14 other equipment that's available on the**  **15 marketplace to meet their needs, the**  **16 efficiency rating of this particular piece of**  **17 equipment. They're showing it as a ratio.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, you can**  **19 use the SEER value. You can make it so you**  **20 can move it to 14. Okay. What if it was**  **21 actually a 14 SEER? All of this returns 14**  **22 SEER combinations.** 

### Page 73

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: So, you can see the**  **2 relevant combinations?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Yes. More questions?**  **4 Yes.**  **5 MEMBER BALLO: Just to Neil's**  **6 point. The FTC has stopped comment on**  **7 including the labels in this database.**  **8 MR. AMRANE: As an FYI, you can**  **9 get that HOI information.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. That was**  **11 Karim. Karen?**  **12 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes. This is**  **13 Karen, with Rheem. So, really though just as**  **14 a point of clarification. That's not 1.692**  **15 models. It's 1.69 combination, million**  **16 combinations.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: So, to be clear, so,**  **18 from the DOE's perspective, we consider the**  **19 combination to be the basic model. So, in the**  **20 central air conditioning world, a central air**  **21 conditioner we define, the basic model is the**  **22 combination of the indoor and the outdoor for** 

### Page 74

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 a split-system air conditioner. So, we would **2 view that to be a base model. So, we listed 3 that as base model.**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay. Thank you. 5 MR. RAWALD: Yes, Jordan.**  **6 MEMBER DORIA: Dave, would you 7 mind going back to Slide 6 of the**  **8 presentation? 9 MR. RAWALD: Sure.**  **10 MEMBER DORIA: Talking about the 11 certification reports, and sort of the**  **12 historical perspective of what has been. It 13 has technically been product compliance for**  **14 the manufacturers. Is there anything that 15 says it has to be limited to does a product**  **16 comply? Meaning from the manufacturer, could 17 it be broader than that?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: So, the purpose of 19 the certification is, it's created by**  **20 regulation, first of all. So, we could talk 21 about a way to change the regulations, if**  **22 that's a concern. But the purpose of the**

### Page 75

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 certification is for the manufacturer to say**  **2 to us, I am complying and here is the**  **3 performance criteria that I'm performing at,**  **4 which can be better than the compliance**  **5 requirement.**  **6 So, people will say, hey, I have a**  **7 22 SEER basic model. We'll put that on the**  **8 database. So, I'm not exactly sure what the**  **9 scope your question is asking.**  **10 MEMBER DORIA: So, I'll just be**  **11 clear. I guess what I was thinking is this**  **12 seems like it was set up for what has been the**  **13 traditional approach, which is a base national**  **14 standard.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **16 MEMBER DORIA: When you start to**  **17 think about regional standards and the other**  **18 acts that will be prohibited under it, I**  **19 wonder if this couldn't some way be broader**  **20 such that it would better support a regional**  **21 approach, meaning would you think that you'd**  **22 just submit certification about pure product** 

### Page 76

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 compliance or, you know, would there be some**  **2 way to consider other acts to further**  **3 demonstrate compliance, because it's not just**  **4 about the product anymore.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, I think the**  **6 table's open for that. That's an open item.**  **7 So, we can discuss that. Elizabeth?**  **8 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth.**  **9 Are you suggesting the contractor upload or**  **10 are you still saying, at the manufacturer**  **11 level?**  **12 MEMBER DORIA: My head, initially,**  **13 was that there could be some role for**  **14 additional submitting of information, probably**  **15 at the manufacturer level. But really what I**  **16 was asking was just fundamentally how open is**  **17 this to change? That's really the question.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, this**  **19 database has been in effect for about four**  **20 years. So, I mean it's still evolving. It's**  **21 in its current form now only for about a year**  **22 and-a-half. So, the way it looks right now is** 

### Page 77

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 slightly scaled. So, I think the Department**  **2 is always wanting to hear ideas on improving**  **3 it and, if there is a way to tailor this tool**  **4 that we already have to meet our needs in**  **5 regional standards, I'll be interested in**  **6 hearing other ideas. So, John?**  **7 MR. HURST: John Hurst, from**  **8 Lennox. Probably not the time to debate that**  **9 but can we kind of add that to the list,**  **10 because there's some simple things we might be**  **11 able to do with that database to make it**  **12 easier for contractors or even consumers to**  **13 tell whether or not something is both legal or**  **14 not legal in their particular region.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Yes. I can add this**  **16 scope document, discussion of ways to use CCMS**  **17 as a tool for here in the enforcement of**  **18 regional standards.**  **19 MR. HURST: Correct.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: That's a valid point.**  **21 Okay. So, that's one of the tools that we**  **22 have. And, yes, Harvey?** 

### Page 78

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey, and**  **2 I just want to note that there's a**  **3 complimentary tool out there. A significant**  **4 number of the better contractors use various**  **5 third-party tools that incorporate things like**  **6 ACCA Manual J, a load calculator.**  **7 And these, to a greater or lesser**  **8 extent, allow the contractor to play with**  **9 alternative specifications to present a good**  **10 better-best to the consumer for choice. And**  **11 this capability to do right will require**  **12 knowing about the three components, in order**  **13 to give that value and, beyond that, to do**  **14 some energy estimates.**  **15 So, it's just another tool that's**  **16 out there that draws CCMS. The AHRI directory**  **17 I don't know what they're doing now for**  **18 attention, but it is apparently a factor in**  **19 the market.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: I'm not familiar with**  **21 that tool. So, I mentioned it here and we'll**  **22 put that on there. I don't know if you could** 

### Page 79

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 talk to Chuck and Glenn and get a sense of how**  **2 often their contractors are really using that**  **3 tool, possibly outside of the context of this**  **4 meeting, and bring back that kind of**  **5 information. That would be useful to know.**  **6 MEMBER SACHS: I think it's things**  **7 like Wrightsoft.**  **8 PARTICIPANT: That's their site**  **9 name.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Yes. So, if you guys**  **11 have copies outside the meeting and we talk**  **12 about that, that would be helpful. So --**  **13 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn,**  **14 just real quick. Harvey is referring to**  **15 Manual J, which is a code requirement to do a**  **16 proper load calculation on a home, so you know**  **17 what size box to put in. We're speaking about**  **18 whatever box you put it, we want the SEER to**  **19 be the right level. And DOE's somewhat**  **20 agnostic whether if you put the right size or**  **21 not. As long as it's 14 SEER, they don't care**  **22 if you're oversized.** 

### Page 80

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: That might be the**  **2 reality. I have no sense of that topic. So,**  **3 any other question on what Jordan brought us**  **4 back to? Okay. Let's go past public**  **5 database.**  **6 Within the extent of the public**  **7 database, there's a lot of public, in some**  **8 way, carrot, right, unless you advertise how**  **9 good your product is. So, I want to make sure**  **10 that, as we talked about yesterday,**  **11 consequences aren't always negative. There**  **12 can be positive ones. So, what we have here**  **13 in our enforcement reporting is a very**  **14 positive consequence.**  **15 It's a way of saying, not only am**  **16 I compliant but I'm way past compliance. Let**  **17 me show you how good my product is. That's**  **18 part of what our enforcement rules are. So,**  **19 we have also these various tools that we**  **20 actually use on a daily basis for enforcing**  **21 our regulations.**  **22 And, so, they start with our** 

### Page 81

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 warnings, which are used when people actually**  **2 submit something to us and they make a**  **3 mistake. We issue warnings on a regular basis**  **4 and say, hey, you made a mistake. Fix that**  **5 mistake.**  **6 We also collect data. So, there**  **7 are many reasons why we'll want to ask a**  **8 manufacturer about data. And we'll talk about**  **9 that. That's what we do on a daily basis. We**  **10 also do testing and we issue documents. We**  **11 issue noncompliance determinations, and we**  **12 also issue proposed civil penalties, which are**  **13 reflected up on there.**  **14 Next slide, please. Let's go to**  **15 ACCA Information. Next Slide. So DOE**  **16 regulations allow us any time to collect**  **17 information regarding the products that folks**  **18 are covered, they are creating. So, we want**  **19 to know what the data is, essentially.**  **20 Usually, what we're asking for is**  **21 what data do you rely upon to tell us that**  **22 you're compliant? And, so, we'll often send** 

### Page 82

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 out a data request saying, hey, we're**  **2 essentially auditing you. Give us the data**  **3 that you relied upon.**  **4 So, to meet that requirement --**  **5 next slide -- manufacturers are required to**  **6 retain records. So, we have, at the very**  **7 basic level, a requirement that folks who are**  **8 manufacturing products that are covered retain**  **9 the records they used to decide if a product**  **10 is compliant with our regulations. So, that's**  **11 a very important piece of our puzzle this**  **12 requirement on the manufacturer to retain**  **13 these records.**  **14 It's something that could be**  **15 considered to be how would that play into our**  **16 current situation. So, the records have to be**  **17 organized. Why do they have to be organized?**  **18 So, when I ask you for them, you can come back**  **19 to me in a timely manner and say here's the**  **20 answer to your question, Doug. I have these**  **21 records for you. Here's the answer.**  **22 And they should be retained for** 

### Page 83

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you for two years after you discontinue your**  **2 product. So, even if your product's off the**  **3 market, you still have to keep the records**  **4 around for two more years, because I may want**  **5 to ask about it and I may have concerns that,**  **6 during the years it was being sold, it was**  **7 actually noncompliant. So, that requirement**  **8 extends past the life of the product. That's**  **9 the current burden on the manufacturers today**  **10 for retaining records. Next slide.**  **11 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Actually, I had**  **12 a question.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **14 MEMBER MEYERS: This is Amy**  **15 Shepherd. And I can look it up, but you're**  **16 standing right there.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Well, I'm standing**  **18 here as well.**  **19 MEMBER MEYERS: So, for the**  **20 request for information, the 429.106 where you**  **21 can request information at any time, is that**  **22 limited to manufacturers, or do you have the** 

### Page 84

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 ability to request information from any**  **2 person?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, subpoena**  **4 authority is not limited. If we go back to**  **5 our -- of course, I'm distracted now. You go**  **6 back one slide. So, we don't say who the**  **7 parties are. So, you get to be broad. So, we**  **8 view our ability to collect information from**  **9 anyone that had that information.**  **10 MEMBER NOLL: You're saying, that**  **11 subpoena authority. When you say that, do you**  **12 mean subpoena like you go to a Court, or do**  **13 you mean the DOE --**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Let's go two slides**  **15 forward. So, subpoena authority is issued by**  **16 the Department. So, the Department has the**  **17 authority, under ACCA, and we use that in our**  **18 regulations, to issue subpoenas. So, the**  **19 secretary who is designated, which would be**  **20 Laura Barhydt, General Counsel for**  **21 enforcement, can issue an subpoena saying you**  **22 are required to give this information and** 

### Page 85

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 these documents to the Department.**  **2 MEMBER MEYERS: And that's to any**  **3 person, not just manufacturers?**  **4 MR. RAWALD: To any person.**  **5 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay. And, then,**  **6 the 106 authority, which I think is two slides**  **7 forward, is that also any person or --**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, it's**  **9 written broadly. And, so, I would say it's**  **10 anybody with relevant information, but Laura**  **11 may countermand this.**  **12 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: And she's nodding her**  **14 head that she does agree it says any person,**  **15 which is not surprising, that we view our**  **16 authority broadly.**  **17 MEMBER MEYERS: Okay.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Now, Amy asked, for**  **19 the moment, if somebody refused to obey a**  **20 subpoena, we can have the authority to go to**  **21 a U.S. District Court and get them to enforce**  **22 the subpoena. So, the court will then follow** 

### Page 86

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 up on that subpoena. So, that's something **2 that we use. These are all tools we use to 3 investigate violations, to see if there**  **4 actually is something going on. 5 Next slide, please. Now, we also**  **6 test. Next slide. So, we have two basic 7 testings that we do. We have assessment**  **8 testing and we have enforcement testing. So, 9 assessment testing is paid for by the**  **10 Department. We do that to kind of keep a 11 check on the industry. So, we want to go out**  **12 there and we want to test a certain number of 13 products and see if they actually are -- how**  **14 they look. Yes, Elizabeth? 15 MEMBER NOLL: I apologize. Going**  **16 back to the subpoena. 17 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **18 MEMBER NOLL: The failure to obey 19 punishable by court, that whole thing, that**  **20 can be, again, on anyone. So, not civil 21 penalties, but just in terms of record**  **22 retention or requirement and --**

### Page 87

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **2 MEMBER NOLL: -- and origin of**  **3 reply.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: So, the subpoena,**  **5 this contempt is -- so the court issues an**  **6 order. And Congress said, hey, if they ignore**  **7 the court position and order saying following**  **8 the subpoena, the court can do what the court**  **9 does to those who don't listen to the court.**  **10 MEMBER NOLL: Right.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: So, that's giving the**  **12 court authority to take action. That's beyond**  **13 DOE. That's saying the U.S. District Court**  **14 has the authority to do what they can to**  **15 enforce their rule. Their order was issued**  **16 because we issued a subpoena, and no one**  **17 listened to it.**  **18 MEMBER NOLL: Got you.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **20 MEMBER NOLL: Sorry.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Yes. Oh, question to**  **22 everyone. Bruce Helft, do we know where he's** 

### Page 88

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 from?**  **2 MEMBER FERNSTROM: This is Gary,**  **3 California Energy Commission**  **4 PARTICIPANT: That's where he's**  **5 from.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MR. RAWALD: All right. He asked**  **9 what is the criteria for a test lab for tests**  **10 to report data for certification submittals?**  **11 Is there a vetting or approval process for a**  **12 test lab managed by the DOE? So, his question**  **13 asks a couple different things here. So, what**  **14 is the criteria for a test lab that tests and**  **15 reports data certification submissions?**  **16 So, what the Department allows is,**  **17 we allow the manufacturer to test their own**  **18 products or to have a third-party lab test it**  **19 for them. Now, we had a test cue that**  **20 required a lab do certain things, but most of**  **21 our products we do not have a requirement that**  **22 the lab actually be accredited by a particular** 

### Page 89

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 organization. So, we had not required that.**  **2 In fact, when someone looks to**  **3 figure out who is going to test your products,**  **4 but you should find someone you're going to**  **5 use a test procedure, and probably**  **6 accreditation would probably be a way to get**  **7 an idea of whether they actually are going to**  **8 follow a test procedure. So, now, for**  **9 electric motors and for lighting, we do have**  **10 a requirement that's specific to the actual**  **11 accreditation. But these products right here,**  **12 since we're up here, we do not.**  **13 So, is there a vetting or approval**  **14 process for a test lab managed by DOE? So, we**  **15 do have a process that we go through in**  **16 government contracting in order to get to our**  **17 labs that we use. We do have to make sure**  **18 that they actually can use the DOE test**  **19 procedure appropriately. So, we do keep an**  **20 eye on the lab and make sure they're doing the**  **21 right thing. So, we do have our own internal**  **22 process to make sure the lab's actually** 

### Page 90

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 functioning in a way that we think is**  **2 appropriate for us to rely upon as a vetting**  **3 agent.**  **4 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, this is**  **5 Gary. I'm going to ask you a follow-up**  **6 question on Bruce's behalf.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **8 MEMBER FERNSTROM: By the way, the**  **9 California Energy Commission has been given**  **10 authority by the legislature to levy fines,**  **11 directly, for violation of the California**  **12 Appliance Standards. And it has a rule, I**  **13 think, underway, determining how it's going to**  **14 do that. So, Bruce's questions are related to**  **15 how California might learn from DOE's**  **16 experience.**  **17 So, when you say there's a process**  **18 for labs to be certified to satisfy DOE, is**  **19 that an ISO standard or --**  **20 MR. RAWALD: So, we're going**  **21 pretty far outside my range of knowledge. And**  **22 I'm not going to belabor that point in this** 

### Page 91

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 particular forum, because I don't think it's**  **2 necessary for us. But we could certainly have**  **3 Bruce talk later to Laura and to Ashley**  **4 Armstrong. And they can go through a process**  **5 that we go through with government contracting**  **6 in order to make sure that these labs meet the**  **7 requirements. That might be most helpful.**  **8 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Thank you.**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey, and**  **10 we've spent a lot of time on this in the**  **11 commercial products we're making negotiated**  **12 rule making last summer and there are ISO**  **13 processes that are germane, and I personally**  **14 believe that adequate assurance to CEC and**  **15 others of a lab that's behaving properly.**  **16 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay. So, this**  **17 is Gary. And to go back to your point, you're**  **18 talking about labs which would contract with**  **19 the government. And I understand they need to**  **20 meet the government requirements. But I was**  **21 speaking about labs that manufacturers might**  **22 engage in order to submit information.** 

### Page 92

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **2 MEMBER FERNSTROM: And I'm**  **3 presuming in that case, ultimately, the**  **4 manufacturer who is submitting is responsible.**  **5 So, it's up to them to assure that they've got**  **6 the correct --**  **7 MR. RAWALD: No. That's**  **8 absolutely 100 percent correct. So, if the**  **9 manufacturer relies upon a lab that doesn't do**  **10 the right thing, and the data comes back and**  **11 it's wrong, and we test the product and the**  **12 product fails, the manufacturer is the one**  **13 who's at fault. They're the one that's**  **14 liable. That's correct.**  **15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Thank you.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: So, does everyone**  **17 understand that? That's the way it is. So,**  **18 the manufacturer needs to be careful who they**  **19 choose to test their products.**  **20 Okay. Turning back to what we**  **21 were talking about here. So, our testing. We**  **22 do the assessment tests, which we do use** 

### Page 93

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 government-contracted labs, as we discussed**  **2 between talking to Gary. They do follow test**  **3 procedures.**  **4 And, what will happen is DOE will**  **5 go out and we'll buy a product. We'll bring**  **6 it to the lab and we'll test it. And, if we**  **7 find that one unit that we test is not**  **8 working, is not meeting the standards, excuse**  **9 me, if it fails to meet the standards, then we**  **10 will actually then engage in what's called**  **11 enforcement testing. So, we're going to**  **12 contact the manufacturer and say, hey, provide**  **13 us more, so that we can go look at these**  **14 things and we can test them.**  **15 And, once we test a certain**  **16 statistically significant number, we'll then**  **17 be able to make a judgment about whether**  **18 they're actually complying with the standards**  **19 or not. So, that's our testing program. It's**  **20 very short and sweet here for your folks. I**  **21 don't think we need to belabor this point.**  **22 Any question on it?** 

### Page 94

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Next slide. So, what do we do**  **2 when we find something noncompliant? As I**  **3 mentioned earlier, when we were talking about**  **4 these things the Department does, there are**  **5 money things and there are kind of these**  **6 public shaming activities.**  **7 So, we have this noncompliance**  **8 termination. It's a written notice from the**  **9 Department. It says, hey, manufacturer, we**  **10 found your product non-complaint. And, as**  **11 part of that, you now have to tell everyone**  **12 that you sold your product to that it's not**  **13 compliant.**  **14 See, that's, in some way, a stick.**  **15 Right? That is, in some way, a very negative**  **16 thing on the manufacturer, to have to go and**  **17 tell someone, hey, by the way, we were told by**  **18 the Department of Energy that we didn't meet**  **19 the minimum standard required by federal law.**  **20 So, that is a stick, in some way,**  **21 that we wield over folks that fail to comply.**  **22 And you having them view with you the records** 

### Page 95

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of everything you sold, too, so we can make**  **2 sure you did notify everyone and, also, so we**  **3 can figure out what civil penalty might apply.**  **4 Now, we do have an attempted**  **5 program. We say, hey, listen. If you want to**  **6 make your product better, you can go ahead and**  **7 do so but now you have to go ahead and tell us**  **8 why it's better, what you did to it**  **9 differently and, then, you can go and we'll**  **10 let you sell it again. So, we do have that**  **11 kind of you did something bad but you can fix**  **12 it piece to it. Anyone have a question with**  **13 this?**  **14 Okay. Next slide. So, then, we**  **15 go to our last thing, which is our civil**  **16 penalties. So, we assess civil penalties for**  **17 people who commit prohibited acts. So, the**  **18 maximum civil penalty we're allowed to assess**  **19 under law is $200 per violation.**  **20 So, the way we view that is, we do**  **21 it per day, per paperwork violation. So, if**  **22 I ask you something and you don't give me,** 

### Page 96

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 everyday you don't give it to me, I get $200**  **2 for that information. And, then, for units**  **3 that are sold that are not complaint, per**  **4 unit. So, if you make, you know, 1,000 units**  **5 of a refrigerator that are not complaint, it's**  **6 $200 per unit. So, that's the maximum**  **7 penalties that you'll face.**  **8 So, we'll look at the maximum**  **9 penalty. We'll discuss what the appropriate**  **10 penalty will be in light of a number of**  **11 factors that we've discussed internally, as**  **12 far as an enforcement policy goes, and, then,**  **13 we'll come up with a number that we'll pursue**  **14 as being the right penalty for this paperwork**  **15 violation.**  **16 Let's talk about, you folks asked**  **17 yesterday specifically what are the prohibited**  **18 acts? So, let's get through those real quick.**  **19 So, there are ten prohibited acts that we**  **20 currently have in our regulations. Most of**  **21 them, as Charlie indicated yesterday, deal**  **22 with manufacturers.** 

### Page 97

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, the first is their failure to**  **2 provide records. That's essentially what that**  **3 big long paragraph says. If we ask you for**  **4 information and you don't give it to us, then,**  **5 that's a prohibitive act. That includes**  **6 failing to file that annual certification**  **7 report. That's a prohibited act, so we can**  **8 collection money for that. Next is failure to**  **9 test your products.**  **10 MEMBER NOLL: Doug?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Yes?**  **12 MEMBER NOLL: In this one, it**  **13 says, failure of a manufacturer to provide.**  **14 In the context of what we're discussing here,**  **15 can that be broader, if records are --**  **16 MR. RAWALD: The Department's**  **17 position here is that we could down for**  **18 prohibited acts that would be tailored for**  **19 this instance. Yes.**  **20 MEMBER NOLL: Okay.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: We're looking at what**  **22 we have now to help inform us of what we could** 

### Page 98

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 do in the context of regional standards.**  **2 MEMBER SHEPHERD: May I ask a**  **3 clarification about that? So, that basis of**  **4 the broader authority is because you're saying**  **5 or the Department's view is that this is a**  **6 very broad definition of manufacturer that**  **7 includes assembly?**  **8 MR. RAWALD: No. I don't want to**  **9 say that. That's what Gary explained earlier**  **10 and what was said.**  **11 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay. So, how**  **12 --**  **13 MR. RAWALD: What I said today is,**  **14 given the mandate from Congress to develop an**  **15 effective enforcement plan, the Department's**  **16 opinion, at the moment, is this is a up for**  **17 negotiation and discussion.**  **18 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: But, for purposes of**  **20 negotiation, our opinions are our authority is**  **21 as broad as possible to meet the need of**  **22 creating an effective enforcement program.** 

### Page 99

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SHEPHERD: So, your**  **2 position is, then, that the language that was**  **3 added in the regional standards provision of**  **4 the standards of 6295 basically means that you**  **5 can do whatever you want, and you're no longer**  **6 tied to the specific delineated authority?**  **7 I'm just trying to figure out here this is --**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, I don't**  **9 want to go that far, because that's not**  **10 correct.**  **11 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: And, so, the**  **13 Department has not officially released any**  **14 sort of interpretation or provision on this.**  **15 So, we have a statute. The statute has told**  **16 us to do this. So, we're coming to you and**  **17 we're saying, let's open a effective**  **18 enforcement program together.**  **19 What I'm telling you is that we,**  **20 in the course of negotiation, we view our**  **21 authority as broadly as necessary to make an**  **22 effective enforcement plan. So, if folks come** 

### Page 100

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 together today and say, the only way we can do**  **2 this is, if we have a way we would act for**  **3 this. Then we would, of course, think that**  **4 that would be okay.**  **5 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: We'll go back then**  **7 and take that legal analysis on that**  **8 appropriately. But, at the moment, this is a**  **9 negotiation to figure out what we can do to**  **10 make an effective enforcement plan. The**  **11 table's open.**  **12 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Okay.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Does that make sense?**  **14 MEMBER NOLL: So, these are meant**  **15 as examples of --**  **16 MR. RAWALD: These are the ones**  **17 that are coming up. Folks asked me yesterday,**  **18 what do you guys prohibit right now? So, what**  **19 do we have out there? Now, some of these come**  **20 directly from the statute, some are**  **21 interpreted from the statute. The statute has**  **22 what's prohibited acts, and we have ones that** 

### Page 101

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 drafting the statute and ones that have been**  **2 interpreted by our statutory authority.**  **3 And, so, that's consistent with**  **4 that. I think that we can arguably develop**  **5 prohibited acts that are interpreted from our**  **6 authority that we have here from Congress.**  **7 So, now we have lawyers, and they're going to**  **8 talk a little with us. I'm talking here as a**  **9 DOE guide, and not necessarily as a lawyer.**  **10 So, our authority at the moment, for**  **11 negotiation purposes, is what it needs to be**  **12 to get to what we can work around.**  **13 So, we have these failures by**  **14 manufacturers to provide records. We have**  **15 failure to test any covered product or covered**  **16 equipment. In the course of testing, they'll**  **17 be tested improperly. Next slide. Delivery**  **18 gives some control over a feature in a covered**  **19 product to circumvent the requirements. So,**  **20 if you actually have something going on, some**  **21 doohickey in your product that, when you're**  **22 testing it, it turns off a valve, or turns on** 

### Page 102

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a valve and makes it test different than it**  **2 actually will in the field. So, you can pass**  **3 the test, but you actually wouldn't operate in**  **4 that way. That's to stop folks from cheating.**  **5 So, failure of a manufacturer to**  **6 give me something, if I ask for it, as far as**  **7 testing, that'll be a prohibited act. Next**  **8 slide. Failure of manufacturer to allow me to**  **9 observe hhjtesting, if I ask you if I can go**  **10 watch your test. That's a prohibited act.**  **11 Distribution in commerce by a**  **12 manufacturer or private labeler of any new**  **13 product that is not in compliance with**  **14 applicable energy conservation standards. So,**  **15 that's the really important one. That's the**  **16 one that says, hey, listen, if it's not in**  **17 compliance, then you can't do that. So,**  **18 that's the one that we use every day for**  **19 people that make and sell things that are**  **20 noncompliant.**  **21 And, then, we have this one as**  **22 well. So, if we've told you it's not** 

### Page 103

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 compliant and you keep selling it, we'd also**  **2 be charging money for that. It's really just**  **3 redundant to this. But it's very clear. If**  **4 we told you it's not compliant and you keep**  **5 selling it, then that's also a bad thing.**  **6 Next slide. Now, if you certify**  **7 to us what you're product is pointing out, and**  **8 you know you're lying to us, that's also a**  **9 prohibited act. And Congress gave us this one**  **10 regarding adapters for lighting. It's very**  **11 true for lighting. We're not going to spend**  **12 any time on this one.**  **13 Next slide. Go back real quick.**  **14 Sorry. The interesting thing is this one**  **15 actually sent to distributors and retailers.**  **16 So, it's the only prohibited act we have that**  **17 lists distributors and retailers. So, it's**  **18 the only prohibited act we have that lists**  **19 distributors or retailers as a party to the**  **20 prohibited act.**  **21 Next slide. And this last one was**  **22 very important for us today. For any** 

### Page 104

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 manufacturer or private labeler, no one will**  **2 sell to a distributor, contractor or dealer**  **3 with knowledge that entity routinely violates**  **4 any regional standards. So, this one is in**  **5 play now. This is something that is in play**  **6 today.**  **7 So, manufacturers already have a**  **8 prohibited act that relates to them. So, they**  **9 have their own skin in the game here. So,**  **10 they have to worry about, what does this mean**  **11 for them? And, so, that's a thing we have to**  **12 talk more about in, of course, this**  **13 negotiation as well. So, this is the**  **14 prohibited act that's currently out there.**  **15 Yes, Dave?**  **16 MR. CALABRESE: Dave at Daikin.**  **17 The term knowledge actually is defined in the**  **18 statute. I don't know if you have it there.**  **19 But it's helpful as I was looking through it**  **20 to understand, you know, how the Department**  **21 defines what knowledge is.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Well, so, Congress** 

### Page 105

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 has defined knowledge for us and they tell us**  **2 that "knowing" means, you know, you know or**  **3 should have known. So, essentially, if you,**  **4 in acting as a responsible manufacturer or**  **5 person who has responsibility in this instance**  **6 should know what the performance of your**  **7 product is, or you're willfully ignorant.**  **8 That's not good enough. You know, you should**  **9 know how your product performs and most folks**  **10 should because you're making the product, then**  **11 you're responsible for that, you're considered**  **12 to have knowledge under the law. Yes, Jordan?**  **13 MEMBER DORIA: I assume we're not**  **14 so fortunate to have Congress to define**  **15 routinely for us.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: This provision right**  **17 here was EISA at the same time as the regional**  **18 standards and, truly, we have to talk about**  **19 what that means, you know, what is the scope**  **20 of that. And I think the table's open here**  **21 for us to define what we think would be a**  **22 routine violation, for us to talk about where** 

### Page 106

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the violation is. Let's talk about, you know,**  **2 what's going on here, and how we want to**  **3 handle these. Okay. So, that's a brief,**  **4 thumbnail sketch. Yes, Charlie?**  **5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't know what**  **6 the slide number it was, but it was the one on**  **7 records retention and it's pretty clear where**  **8 you spell out what the manufacturer -- I think**  **9 it was Slide 12. There. Shall establish and**  **10 maintain routine records, blah, blah, blah,**  **11 blah, blah. Was that subject to a paperwork**  **12 reduction act?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: I think so. I'll**  **14 have to ask my lawyers. I don't know that**  **15 because I wasn't involved in that part of it.**  **16 But I presume that anytime we have someone**  **17 retaining records, so it can produce**  **18 information to us, there's some PRA aspect to**  **19 it.**  **20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Right.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: But I can't confirm**  **22 that to you. I'll have to talk to Eric and** 

### Page 107

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 confer.**  **2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: That may be**  **3 something to also talk about.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Well, it seems to me**  **5 that anything that we do here will have to go**  **6 through some sort of PRA approval process at**  **7 some point for collecting any information at**  **8 all, and it will apply when folks are to**  **9 retain information, possibly. So, I'll have**  **10 the lawyers go over that and we'll get back to**  **11 with our answer for the group. Maybe we can**  **12 have a PRA discussion at that time, and be**  **13 able to look at what the impact would be.**  **14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I just was trying**  **15 to figure out --**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Sure.**  **17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- records.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: And, of course, the**  **19 CVI, you know, because we have to have this**  **20 information as well. So, okay. So, that's**  **21 the final slide on enforcement. Any other**  **22 question about what we do to enforce things on** 

### Page 108

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a national level? And the reason why it's**  **2 important is it helps you get a sense of,**  **3 well, what could we do here regionally. You**  **4 know? What can the Department offer? Yes,**  **5 Amy?**  **6 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Amy Shepherd,**  **7 AHRI. Has the Department ever pursued its**  **8 injunctive relief?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Have we?**  **10 MEMBER SHEPHERD: Yes.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: So, we have the**  **12 ability to pursue our injunctive relief. We**  **13 have not been forced to do so that I'm aware**  **14 of. But we do have the authority to do**  **15 injunctions, so both for sale of noncompliant**  **16 products as well as for, you know, some people**  **17 would argue that the forcing of somebody to**  **18 appear in court with subpoena would also be**  **19 conducting those rights. So, we have that.**  **20 We have not gone to enforcement at this time.**  **21 Karen or Dave?**  **22 MR. CALABRESE: One last question.** 

### Page 109

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 The statute does provide for private right of**  **2 action. So, there could be, if the Agency or**  **3 Federal Government doesn't enforce the law,**  **4 there could be the possibility of a private**  **5 entity and/or the state, perhaps.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: That's a good point,**  **7 David. It's only regional policy, but the**  **8 statute does entitles the citizen to be**  **9 involved that way. So --**  **10 MR. EISNER: Is this limited to**  **11 the purchaser of the equipment, or anybody can**  **12 enforce it?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: It's not limited.**  **14 It's not limited, so, any person. Chuck?**  **15 MEMBER WHITE: This is Chuck**  **16 White. So, could you tell me approximately**  **17 how many air conditioning policemen you have**  **18 to go out and look at installed systems and --**  **19 MR. RAWALD: That's a very good**  **20 question. Right. So, we don't have any**  **21 policemen. I mean there are no DOE special**  **22 agents. So, you know, we have the operation** 

### Page 110

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we have. So, there's a lot of practical**  **2 issues to discuss in how we report this. Yes,**  **3 John?**  **4 MR. MELCHI: Yes. This is John**  **5 with Hardi. So, just looking at the statute**  **6 regarding subpoena, it appears that we can**  **7 request -- I apologize for not being more**  **8 organized here -- brand name and model number**  **9 and the energy or wattage ratings.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: I'm not sure where**  **11 you're looking.**  **12 MR. MELCHI: Sorry. I'm looking**  **13 at 42.97 -- 429.7, I'm sorry.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Okay, 429.7.**  **15 MR. MELCHI: And it talks about,**  **16 as far as records and confidentiality. Those**  **17 are records that are not confidential in the**  **18 DOE's eyes. What is confidential, what**  **19 appears as confidential, and I guess I need**  **20 clarification on these records requests would**  **21 include serial numbers, correct?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, every --** 

### Page 111

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. MELCHI: That would be**  **2 confidential business information.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So, we do**  **4 request confidential business information.**  **5 But what we do is we entitle folks to give us**  **6 two copies, a redacted copy and a copy that's**  **7 not redacted, because there's some things I**  **8 need to know that are confidential.**  **9 And, on the FOIA, those things are**  **10 protected from release. So, we would possibly**  **11 go through protected information and, if it's**  **12 confidential, we keep it in confidence. But**  **13 we encrypt it, and do all the things on our**  **14 end to make sure that it isn't releasable.**  **15 But we do request information that it**  **16 confidential for the Department's purposes.**  **17 MR. MELCHI: But that's not FOIA**  **18 able by a third party?**  **19 MR. RAWALD: It will not be. We**  **20 would actually invoke a FOIA, you know,**  **21 exception that say we would not release that.**  **22 We would confer with the person who gave us** 

### Page 112

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that and say, hey, this is the information**  **2 we're requesting from you. You've told us**  **3 previously it's confidential. Do you still**  **4 agree it's confidential? And, then, we would**  **5 push back on releasing that information.**  **6 MR. MELCHI: Okay. And, then, the**  **7 second question would be just a process**  **8 question, as regards to the manufacturers.**  **9 Does DOE often broadly subpoena records from**  **10 an entire industry, and say, we are**  **11 subpoenaing all members?**  **12 MR. RAWALD: That's not very**  **13 effective. So, I think no tool is effective**  **14 when it's so broad. And I'm very much for**  **15 trying to be effective and plan the goal when**  **16 I do things. So, we typically target**  **17 subpoenas both in content and also in who**  **18 we're targeting. So, under my knowledge,**  **19 which the enforcement program is still fairly**  **20 young --**  **21 MR. MELCHI: Yes.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: -- we have not** 

### Page 113

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 subpoenaed an entire industry, and I don't **2 think that would be an effective means of 3 trying to accomplish an objective, either.**  **4 MR. MELCHI: Okay. 5 MR. RAWALD: Other questions?**  **6 Okay. So, that takes me through the two 7 things that I promised to do this morning.**  **8 So, I appreciate it. Do you guys want to do 9 a break at this point, or do you want to go**  **10 further along? 11 MR. EISNER: Break.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Do you guys want to 13 go until 11:00?**  **14 (Simultaneous speaking.) 15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **16 matter went off the record at 10:24 a.m. and 17 resumed at 10:49 a.m.)**  **18 MR. EISNER: One of the things we 19 talked about in yesterday's meeting was you**  **20 needed to think about overnight some of the 21 other things you want from the Department, so**  **22 we can more effectively begin talking about**

### Page 114

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 these subjects that you want to discuss in the**  **2 negotiation. Anybody want to start the**  **3 conversation on that?**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Yes. This is Doug.**  **5 So, I guess the asking I had done to the group**  **6 was tell me what things you think are hurdles**  **7 that need to be answered before we can move**  **8 forward. And I, of course, don't think we**  **9 could do without those answers, but so I can**  **10 go back and make sure we're getting to those**  **11 answers we need. So there was a hope to go**  **12 back a last time and think about it a little**  **13 bit more so that we can come up with that list**  **14 of some sort.**  **15 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Anybody want to**  **16 start it off?**  **17 MR. LATTANZI: Matt Lattanzi with**  **18 Nordyne. So, we talked about these two**  **19 yesterday for R22, 13 SEER air conditioners in**  **20 the southern states after 1/1/2015. I think**  **21 we need an answer to that and then again the**  **22 definition of 14 SEER.** 

### Page 115

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, and that --**  **2 MR. LATTANZI: Those two questions**  **3 would have just reiterating from yesterday.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Right. And that, so**  **5 I want, I want to be able to allow a little**  **6 bit more on that so I can really get the**  **7 answer the group needs. So talk to me more**  **8 about the R22 issue. What is the issue that**  **9 you, as you see it?**  **10 MR. LATTANZI: I believe the**  **11 fundamental issue or the fundamental question,**  **12 and again it has ramifications in the market**  **13 prior to the enforcement date, is can a 13**  **14 SEER air conditioner manufactured after**  **15 January 1, 2015 be sold into the southern**  **16 states? A clear defining answer to that**  **17 question I feel would be very helpful.**  **18 MR. ROCKY: This is Brian Rocky,**  **19 Johnson Controls. It's the definition of is**  **20 it a component or a system, right? And**  **21 dry-charge units have been defined as a**  **22 component, and so the question is is that** 

### Page 116

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 interpretation, that definition still valid**  **2 with the regional efficiency standards?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Let's see first --**  **4 MR. LATTANZI: Steve Porter,**  **5 Johnstone Supply. I think it's all 13 SEER.**  **6 It's any -- it's a 13 SEER outdoor condensing**  **7 unit be modified or added to to make 14 SEER**  **8 no matter whether it's dry-charged with 410A,**  **9 not charged, make -- if it makes 14 can that**  **10 be sold?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **12 MR. LATTANZI: But then a coil --**  **13 MR. ROCKY: Yeah, but then that is**  **14 two different questions. My question is it's**  **15 just as the rule reads today as a replacement**  **16 part, if a Blain 13 SEER air conditioner**  **17 replace a --**  **18 MR. LATTANZI: But we're saying**  **19 not matter what?**  **20 MR. ROCKY: Yeah, so --**  **21 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **22 MR. LATTANZI: Yes. The 13 SEER** 

### Page 117

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 dry air conditioner that we sell today, can**  **2 that be sold into the South manufactured after**  **3 January 1, 2015?**  **4 MR. RAWALD: When you say air**  **5 conditioner, can you, can you bring it down to**  **6 --**  **7 MR. ROCKY: This is --**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **9 MR. ROCKY: This is Brian Rocky.**  **10 So the discussion centers on the definition of**  **11 a replacement component and what, and whether,**  **12 and that supplies both A/C and heat pump, but**  **13 per the regional efficiency standards it's the**  **14 A/C, for the national standards the heat pump.**  **15 It's a component as it's been defined is it**  **16 still legal to sell that component in the**  **17 southern states or in the areas for the**  **18 national for heat pump anywhere if it was a 13**  **19 SEER rated basic model heat pump?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I'm**  **21 asking you some -- I'm not in here telling you**  **22 you have to break this down really so I can** 

### Page 118

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 focus on the issue. So you're saying there's**  **2 a definition for a component currently. So as**  **3 a component, so is that definition in your**  **4 mind commensurate, you're talking about**  **5 national and cool condenser.**  **6 MR. ROCKY: Yes.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: We're talking only**  **8 about the condenser here. Is that the rule**  **9 we're focusing on?**  **10 MR. ROCKY: Yes.**  **11 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.**  **12 MS. MEYERS: And this is Karen**  **13 with Trane, just for additional background**  **14 when we quit manufacturing condensing units**  **15 with R22 and we went to 410A, the EPA defined**  **16 the condensing unit as a replacement component**  **17 which opened the door for manufacturers to be**  **18 able to ship dry units because the producers**  **19 could no longer supply us bulk R22 to our**  **20 facilities.**  **21 So you could still manufacture a**  **22 unit and just put like a nitrogen holding** 

### Page 119

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 charge in there to keep the system sealed, and**  **2 then if your unit went out, cut the line set,**  **3 put on a new condensing unit and you would**  **4 charge it with jugs of refrigerant that were**  **5 still legal -- that are still legal to**  **6 purchase for service applications and it would**  **7 be charged in the field. So it was defined by**  **8 EPA as part of this refrigerant allocation**  **9 rule as a replacement component.**  **10 So it allowed dry R22 units to be**  **11 shipped. Now, DOE then came out and gave**  **12 guidance that in order to meet efficiency**  **13 standards that are in place, and this is when**  **14 13, the minimum nationally, said okay, you can**  **15 do that but you had to have had a 13 SEER**  **16 minimum rating with an R22 unit when it was**  **17 legal to build charged R22 units.**  **18 So DOE said yeah, that's okay, but**  **19 you had to have had a rating back when, and**  **20 provided certification test data and certified**  **21 that that unit met 13 SEER.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: And the concern is** 

### Page 120

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that because you can't actually build an R22**  **2 unit you can't test it to see if it's a 14**  **3 SEER right now? Is that, is that a problem?**  **4 Because there are a lot of test data that show**  **5 13 SEER, but how do we show 14 SEER? Is that**  **6 an issue or am I missing something?**  **7 MS. MEYERS: Well, I think it's a**  **8 secondary issue.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So that is, is**  **10 that an issue of concern, that particular**  **11 piece?**  **12 MR. LATTANZI: The guidance that**  **13 --**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Name?**  **15 MR. LATTANZI: This is Matt**  **16 Lattanzi at Nordyne. Was issued in January**  **17 11, 2012 by the Department, and I happen to**  **18 have it right in front of me. It was written**  **19 as a draft.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **21 MR. LATTANZI: To my knowledge it**  **22 was never finalized.** 

### Page 121

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MR. RAWALD: That's correct. **2 (Simultaneous speaking) 3 MR. LATTANZI: What I'm saying is**  **4 under the request is if you finalize this 5 guidance it might right away raise, you know,**  **6 the standards that were in effect on January 7 1, 2010, which is when the refrigerant change**  **8 took effect. So it was the efficiency 9 standards that were in effect which were 13**  **10 SEER. So I think if we can get, request that 11 you go back and re-look at this and finalize**  **12 it and make it applicable to the regional 13 standards, we'll have the answer to our**  **14 questions. 15 MR. RAWALD: For the R22 draft.**  **16 MR. LATTANZI: For the R22, and I 17 think we mentioned this at length yesterday,**  **18 but I'll just repeat it, but for the purposes 19 of developing an enforcement policy we feel**  **20 it's important that this is one of the 21 questions that gets answered.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Well, let's play**

### Page 122

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 around with this, so this is Doug here. What**  **2 are the implications of the R22 dry-shipped**  **3 issue for enforcement? How does that affect**  **4 our ability to develop an enforcement scheme.**  **5 So I get to -- explain to me why this is so**  **6 important.**  **7 MS. MEYERS: Well, we need to**  **8 know, A, if it's legal to sell those units.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Right, so there's the**  **10 compliance.**  **11 MS. MEYERS: But --**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Right. That's**  **13 important.**  **14 MS. MEYERS: And so we need to**  **15 know that answer.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So that's**  **17 Karen, and so first to comply we know it, but**  **18 as far as our ability to design a way to**  **19 enforce standards that are regionally based,**  **20 how does the answer to the R22 question**  **21 interplay with our ability to do that? What**  **22 are we unable to do because we don't know an** 

### Page 123

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 answer to that question?**  **2 MR. SACHS: Doug?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Yes, Harvey.**  **4 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I**  **5 think to answer that and I may step on some**  **6 toes, and I may get things wrong but it's a**  **7 risk I'll take, you have to look through the**  **8 other end of the telescope.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **10 MR. SACHS: What does this issue**  **11 look like to the contractor and the consumer?**  **12 That does get geeky for the contractor. If**  **13 I'm thinking at all about that R22 unit, it's**  **14 likely that it's a replacement. It's unlikely**  **15 that it's new construction.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **17 MR. SACHS: It's likely that if I**  **18 can get away with doing this legally or**  **19 without inspection, I can save the customer a**  **20 whole lot of money by doing this because I**  **21 will not have to replace the evaporator or the**  **22 expansion valve that's sold normally as part** 

### Page 124

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of that evaporator. Because those will, and**  **2 I won't have to worry about anything else.**  **3 It's just a whole lot simpler installation.**  **4 There's only one drawback. There ain't no way**  **5 in hell that that unit with that much older**  **6 evaporator that was designed for 10 SEER is**  **7 every going to perform at SEER 13, and I don't**  **8 care how big a condensing unit you put on it.**  **9 Well, maybe, maybe you could get**  **10 there. So that from our perspective on**  **11 national energy savings, until the price of**  **12 R22 gets very, very high the lowest cost**  **13 option is to make something that might be an**  **14 11 and a half SEER by doing that dry-ship R22**  **15 and charging it in the field, which California**  **16 experience suggests is not likely to be real**  **17 close to the proper charge anyway.**  **18 So is that a fair way of capturing**  **19 it from only a low-lying contractor**  **20 perspective?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: I think I'll look**  **22 toward Matt for an answer, so Matt?** 

### Page 125

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. SACHS: Yeah, well, I waited**  **2 to shock him.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Yeah. Sounds good.**  **4 MR. SACHS: Matt?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Okay, good. Well,**  **6 we'll go to that definitely. So go to Matt**  **7 and then we'll go to Chuck as well.**  **8 MR. LATTANZI: Well, I guess I**  **9 feel like I agree with about 95% of what I**  **10 just heard from Harvey. I take exception to**  **11 the comments on not flushing the system or**  **12 changing the expansion valve. I think**  **13 normally you do have to change the TXV, and**  **14 the lubricants are different, so --**  **15 MR. SACHS: Sorry if I misstated**  **16 that.**  **17 MR. LATTANZI: But other than that**  **18 I think what I heard I'm in agreement. I can**  **19 support him in that.**  **20 MR. SACHS: If I can stay with R22**  **21 I'm avoiding those costs of changing the**  **22 lubricating oil and the expansion valve.** 

### Page 126

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MR. LATTANZI: Yes, right. **2 MR. SACHS: That's what I meant. 3 MR. LATTANZI: So that's -- okay,**  **4 maybe I misheard. 5 MS. NOLL: So is it also not**  **6 subject to the regional standard because it's 7 a component as defined by EPA? Is that the**  **8 other thing that's then -- 9 MR. LATTANZI: Yeah, it's a**  **10 service part. 11 MS. NOLL: So it's a service part**  **12 so in the south we would barely be meeting 13 13 and if we did we would still be not combined**  **14 with the regional 14 SEER standard? 15 MR. SACHS: You would not be**  **16 meeting 13 in the average as installed case, 17 not because of anything that Matt said is**  **18 wrong, but because you will not be getting a 19 matched evaporating unit and a TXV or**  **20 equivalent to meter the refrigerant properly. 21 MS. NOLL: But because it's a**  **22 component it's not subject to, or as some**

### Page 127

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 people might be interpreting it. Is that**  **2 fair?**  **3 MR. LATTANZI: Yeah, that's fair.**  **4 MS. MEYERS: So this is Karen with**  **5 Rheem. It was probably never really**  **6 considered a component before until this EPA**  **7 thing, but, you know, if my compressor goes**  **8 out on my condensing unit I can change my**  **9 compressor. I'm putting in a new minimum**  **10 efficiency unit. If my fan blade goes out I**  **11 can change my fan blade, and, you know, those**  **12 are all service parts that you can do to**  **13 repair your unit. So is just replacing the**  **14 condensing unit considered a repair?**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Or is it an**  **16 installation?**  **17 MS. MEYERS: Or an installation?**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **19 MS. MEYERS: So that's the**  **20 question. What, and we need to know that for**  **21 purposes of enforcement so we know whether we**  **22 can legally ship that unit or not and be in** 

### Page 128

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 violate, you know, so that's why it's**  **2 important.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Right. So it's like**  **4 here, what I'm hearing is, and I'm trying to**  **5 understand this issue the best way possible,**  **6 so if the question comes down to whether**  **7 putting in a replacement condensing unit,**  **8 which prior to the EPA issuing any guidance on**  **9 R22, would have been considered installing a**  **10 new air conditioner.**  **11 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: But in light of what**  **13 the EPA defined a condensing unit to be**  **14 because of the R22 issue, is putting in that**  **15 replacement condensing unit considered**  **16 installation according to the regional**  **17 standard, which de facto, according to what**  **18 Harvey's saying, would never actually be able**  **19 to meet a 14 SEER standard.**  **20 MS. MEYERS: Correct. Right.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: So you would never be**  **22 able to do this dry charging unit and replace** 

### Page 129

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it with that. That would not work if that was**  **2 what we required. Is that the summary?**  **3 Karen, you're nodding your head.**  **4 MS. MEYERS: Yeah. I -- Gary, do**  **5 you agree?**  **6 MR. CLARK: Yes. Huh? Yes.**  **7 MS. MEYERS: I mean, I would agree**  **8 with that.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: I'm trying to**  **10 understand what the problem is.**  **11 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, it's very**  **12 quick.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: It's a good summary.**  **14 MR. ROCKY: Well, we'll get back.**  **15 I'll let Chuck have it in a second. So the**  **16 impact of this from the enforcement standpoint**  **17 gets back to the contractors really doing what**  **18 they can, but they're still going to drive to**  **19 what's easiest for them.**  **20 If the enforcement policy for the**  **21 regional efficiency standards drives to extra**  **22 paperwork, extra cost, submittal of data,** 

### Page 130

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 whatever we come up with and they don't have**  **2 to do that for a dry-charge replacement,**  **3 they're going to move to the least issue,**  **4 least hassle solution for our customers who we**  **5 already know, our consumers, we're all part of**  **6 that, we want the least -- most effective,**  **7 immediate least cost solution as well.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: So what is that?**  **9 MR. ROCKY: So a dry-charge today,**  **10 depending on the overall market and you can**  **11 tell me if I'm wrong on the numbers, is**  **12 somewhere around 15, 20 percent of the total**  **13 volume of air conditioning.**  **14 MS. MEYERS: No, it's --**  **15 MR. ROCKY: But in the markets --**  **16 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Let's hear from Bryan**  **18 and we'll go to others.**  **19 MR. ROCKY: But in certain markets**  **20 it is more than 50 or 60 percent without a**  **21 doubt. But I think that AHRI numbers, we were**  **22 still, as an industry we were less than 20** 

### Page 131

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 percent.**  **2 MS. MEYERS: I would disagree with**  **3 that.**  **4 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **5 MR. RAWALD: We'll keep on going.**  **6 So Karen and Matt and Karim have all said they**  **7 disagree. John from Waxman says that he want**  **8 to talk about it some more, so it seems like**  **9 this is a real issue. But let's drill down to**  **10 the fact that the numbers are almost as**  **11 important to me than the actual issue.**  **12 MR. ROCKY: So again, if we're**  **13 trying to do the right things and have a**  **14 regional standard and we have an out for our**  **15 contractors that saves homeowners money as an**  **16 option versus installing a new system that**  **17 complies with the standard, we don't want to**  **18 drive them to doing that step that doesn't**  **19 save energy and doesn't provide the customers**  **20 what they paid for and doesn't meet the energy**  **21 savings requirements.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: So what I'm hearing** 

### Page 132

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you saying, Bryan, is there's two pieces to**  **2 this puzzle, which is the R22 not only is**  **3 cheaper to buy itself as a replacement part**  **4 than installing a new system, and I hear that**  **5 as being part of it, but also if the effect is**  **6 that it's a replacement as opposed to an**  **7 installation the burden we place on the, on**  **8 whoever would be nonexistent for the**  **9 replacement so that would be tried in that**  **10 direction as well. There's two things here**  **11 going on.**  **12 MS. MEYERS: Yes.**  **13 MR. ROCKY: Yes.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: -- while we're**  **15 talking about it. Okay. Does everyone,**  **16 everyone I thought had an agreement. What do**  **17 contractors think on this, Chuck? You've been**  **18 waiting for a while.**  **19 MR. WHITE: Well, if money didn't**  **20 count it would be easy.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **22 MR. WHITE: But the contractor** 

### Page 133

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 lives in a market with market pressures. And**  **2 unless you're the only guy in town you don't**  **3 have a free hand to dictate how it's going to**  **4 happen. So from a historical perspective,**  **5 I've done air conditioning work for a long**  **6 time, and when I was a pup we changed**  **7 compressors all the time, and they're a pain**  **8 in the butt to change.**  **9 And they're prone to issues if you**  **10 didn't evacuate properly, you had a bad**  **11 solder, there's lots of opportunities for**  **12 callbacks, and a callback in a contractor's**  **13 life is death. So changing condensing units**  **14 you get a better warranty, you get all the new**  **15 parts, became the norm. And it costs more to**  **16 change a compressor, but not a lot and you've**  **17 got the warranty benefits. You've got some**  **18 other things, and so it became the norm to**  **19 change the condensing units.**  **20 We really stopped selling**  **21 compressors unless you had a really specific**  **22 case that you needed to change that** 

### Page 134

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 compressor, changing units became the norm.**  **2 Then along comes the Department of Energy and**  **3 the Environmental Protection Agency and makes**  **4 rules to live by.**  **5 And granted even when you were**  **6 doing that there were probably better ways to**  **7 do it, but again, market pressures come to**  **8 bear. So a homeowner has three choices from**  **9 three contractors and you want to put in the**  **10 best of the best and you're out of the**  **11 ballpark. So you don't want to go back to**  **12 change compressors, but that's what happened.**  **13 410 comes into play, 22 goes away,**  **14 I can't use the evaporator for the 410 system**  **15 and in the early days we didn't even want to**  **16 use line sets. So now you're talking tearing**  **17 the line set out, take the coil out, change**  **18 the outside unit, things are physically**  **19 larger, a lot of complications related to**  **20 that, and complications equal one thing --**  **21 money.**  **22 So what it did was it said, well,** 

### Page 135

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 okay, homeowner, this is what we have to do to**  **2 put this system in and do it right, this is**  **3 what we have to do. And they would say that's**  **4 a lot of money and you say, well, okay, we can**  **5 fix your unit by changing a component. I can**  **6 change the compressor.**  **7 So now I'm back to changing**  **8 compressors like I did 30 years ago, which was**  **9 not something any of us liked, but the market**  **10 pressures drive people to that. And not every**  **11 time. Certainly there were people out there**  **12 that wanted higher efficiency, wanted better**  **13 equipment, had the wherewithal of being able**  **14 to afford it, but there are a lot of times**  **15 where the dollar rules.**  **16 And so if I can change a fan**  **17 motor, if I can change a fan blade, if I can**  **18 change a compressor, shoot, I can buy a coil**  **19 I'll change the coil if it's got a hole in it.**  **20 If I can change all the pieces of this unit**  **21 what's the difference if I change all the**  **22 pieces or I can buy the unit? So that was, I** 

### Page 136

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 don't -- and I'm not supporting or -- that's**  **2 the mindset. That's what happened.**  **3 So most of us in the contracting**  **4 industry were really rather stunned when these**  **5 dry-charge units kind of popped up, and we**  **6 really didn't see that on the horizon or the**  **7 radar and just boom, there they are and some**  **8 people started using them.**  **9 And were we really thrilled about**  **10 it? Well, some people were. Some people**  **11 weren't. It's across the board and whether**  **12 you're the best contractor or the worst**  **13 contractor and you were, got 500 guys or**  **14 you've got two, you have it's across the board**  **15 what happens in the industry and I don't know.**  **16 I've heard people rail against dry-charge.**  **17 I've heard people say they're the greatest**  **18 thing since sliced bread. And I don't know**  **19 where I land on that, but --**  **20 MS. MEYERS: Yeah, I don't either,**  **21 but at the end of the day it's a lot, it's a**  **22 lot more affordable choice for the homeowner,** 

### Page 137

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 like it or not it is. So --**  **2 MR. WHITE: And putting that in,**  **3 okay, I can't, I don't have a certified report**  **4 as to what Joe Homeowner's coil is with this**  **5 unit I brought out, but I will hazard that**  **6 it's more efficient than taking a compressor**  **7 and putting it in that 20-year-old machine.**  **8 Will it be for the AHRI standard?**  **9 Will I meet the number? I don't know. I**  **10 mean, a lot of this talk is my uncle's**  **11 favorite expression, you measure it with a**  **12 micrometer and you mark it with the chalk and**  **13 you cut it with an axe.**  **14 It's true. We talk about, we talk**  **15 about the condensing unit, the coil and the**  **16 blower and there's so much more to it. I mean**  **17 the line set considerations, duct**  **18 considerations. There's a system is more than**  **19 just a couple pieces and good contractors look**  **20 at the system and try to do what's in the best**  **21 interest of the consumer, bearing in mind they**  **22 have to be able to pay for it, because I can't** 

### Page 138

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 take money out of my pocket and buy air**  **2 conditioners for everybody in the room.**  **3 And the other result is I can't**  **4 afford a compressor. I can't afford your 14**  **5 SEER system. They're running down to the big**  **6 box store and buying three window units and**  **7 throwing them in the windows. How do you like**  **8 that for efficiency?**  **9 So there's my two cents worth.**  **10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Did you want to**  **11 talk about that?**  **12 MS. MEYERS: If I can?**  **13 MR. SURRENA: This may be an**  **14 opportunity for a big carrot or the incentive**  **15 to do something different. If there was an**  **16 incentive to go to the minimum efficiency**  **17 unit, put the whole thing in rather than to**  **18 just do the one part, that would net energy**  **19 efficiency. It would help the consumer and it**  **20 would take the contractor, at least give him**  **21 wiggle room on the box that he got put in, and**  **22 as you said, enforcement sometimes is a** 

### Page 139

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 carrot. It's not necessarily a stick.**  **2 MR. WHITE: Yeah.**  **3 MR. SURRENA: This is the chance**  **4 for the carrot to run.**  **5 MR. WHITE: And that -- this is**  **6 Chuck White, again, I did mean to mention**  **7 that, that incentive programs really are**  **8 effective. They do resonate with consumers.**  **9 It does help sell a project. I know there's**  **10 some thought out there that if I know I'm**  **11 going to get $500 back that's what I'm going**  **12 to give you the price of the job, but that's**  **13 not necessarily true.**  **14 It does give you some advantage**  **15 and it does help sell higher efficiency**  **16 products. But again, it's not selling the**  **17 base level. You're going up a level or two to**  **18 qualify for those incentives.**  **19 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden,**  **20 ACCA, so as an association we've remained**  **21 agnostic on this issue. We have contractors**  **22 who like the direct charge units because for** 

### Page 140

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 all the reasons that have been laid out. It**  **2 helps them keep the customer.**  **3 We have contractors who were**  **4 extraordinarily disappointed with the way**  **5 these came out with EPA and then with things**  **6 that happened afterwards because we spent a**  **7 lot of money, time, resources converting the**  **8 industry from 22 to 410A.**  **9 We haven't done a survey on this**  **10 in years, when we did a survey it was about**  **11 48/52 in support of getting rid of the**  **12 dry-charge units, but that was years ago.**  **13 Things have changed. The price of the gas**  **14 itself has increased and that may be something**  **15 that's discouraging people from sort of taking**  **16 the low road versus the high use.**  **17 What I wanted to say, though, also**  **18 is I think we should be a little bit careful**  **19 here though, because I don't know if we want**  **20 to regulate servicing.**  **21 MS. MEYERS: Yes.**  **22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay? Because if** 

### Page 141

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 servicing a part, and if this becomes a**  **2 component, if that triggers a compliance**  **3 requirement, we may be over-complicating this.**  **4 And the sweet spot may be defining this as a**  **5 component, a condensing unit.**  **6 That's what we're talking about is**  **7 a condensing unit, but not the compressor, but**  **8 not the fan, but not the blower, or some of**  **9 the other loud garbage you use. So I just put**  **10 that out there not to be a downer but let's be**  **11 careful about what we're embarking on here.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Right. And so be**  **13 careful that that, you know, our constraint is**  **14 that we're not defining the condensing unit or**  **15 coil here in this group, but it's important**  **16 for us to know the, what the part is doing as**  **17 it is because it has implications you guys are**  **18 saying on the enforcement.**  **19 What I'm hearing you saying is**  **20 that it has implications especially because of**  **21 the incentives this is going to create for**  **22 installers to do a certain thing and that will** 

### Page 142

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 add implications about how much other burden**  **2 we want to put upon them as part of the**  **3 enforcement process.**  **4 MR. MCCRUDDEN: But let's be clear**  **5 about those incentives.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **7 MR. MCCRUDDEN: The verb incentive**  **8 and the noun incentive. Utility programs have**  **9 incentives. This is all market transformation**  **10 and this is money that goes to the homeowner**  **11 to do a, to do a little bit better.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **13 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't think --**  **14 maybe we're doing that wrong. I don't think**  **15 we have a pot of money to play with here but**  **16 --**  **17 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- to do**  **19 incentives. So I don't, I think we may be**  **20 somewhat limited here. But we had a similar**  **21 conversation when we were talking about the**  **22 framework documents, and we were talking about** 

### Page 143

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the waiver. I'm not suggesting a waiver, but**  **2 I'm sort of saying we find that there may,**  **3 that there is a threshold to convince people**  **4 to do better or to move toward the 90% versus**  **5 the 80%, but again, that's true of a different**  **6 subject, but we did talk about that back then.**  **7 And I don't know if there is a solution here.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: So --**  **9 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So we're talking**  **10 about how, getting more guidance in the R22**  **11 will be important at least from the contractor**  **12 installer, dictating what's wrong with them.**  **13 How does it affect the manufacturer in**  **14 deciding what the manufacturer's role should**  **15 be in the enforcement process? So we want to**  **16 know how it's impacting our goal to look at**  **17 the manufacturer piece here.**  **18 I understand that we,**  **19 manufacturers want to comply. It's a**  **20 compliance question. It's important, but for**  **21 a point we will try and develop an effective**  **22 enforcement plan, what are we not able to do** 

### Page 144

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 from a manufacturer point of view because we**  **2 don't have an answer to the R22 issue?**  **3 MR. CLARK: This is Gary from**  **4 Goodman. I guess the way I think about it is**  **5 it's as simple as us accepting an order for 13**  **6 SEER Tri-charge R22 units from a distributor,**  **7 from a distributor in Florida, because that**  **8 area we talked about, you know, we're not**  **9 knowingly supposed to do things. And so at**  **10 that point we wouldn't know we're shipping it**  **11 to them and are we compliant or not compliant?**  **12 MR. HOURAHAN: Okay. You're**  **13 selling it to them and you're thinking as it's**  **14 a replacement.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: And that's Glenn**  **16 again.**  **17 MR. HOURAHAN: That was Glenn**  **18 again, yes.**  **19 MR. CLARK: We don't know anything**  **20 about it. We may or may not know that, but we**  **21 do know that we're shipping it to a southern**  **22 location where there's a 14 SEER minimum** 

### Page 145

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 efficiency standard in effect.**  **2 MR. HOURAHAN: Right.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: And that goes to**  **4 class. I mean, it goes to what your**  **5 obligation is under the law, but as far as us**  **6 developing a way of monitoring, investigating**  **7 and sanctioning or awarding behavior, how does**  **8 that, how does the answer to that be compliant**  **9 or not? How does that affect our goals.**  **10 Yeah, Amy?**  **11 MS. SHEPHERD: Yeah. I have a**  **12 question about I guess your perception of**  **13 compliance and enforcement, because what**  **14 you're enforcing is compliance with the law.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Sure.**  **16 MS. SHEPHERD: So when you're**  **17 saying I understand how it affects compliance**  **18 but not enforcement, can you clarify that a**  **19 little bit?**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right. So I think it**  **21 affects enforcement. What it doesn't affect**  **22 in my mind or where I'm missing the pieces,** 

### Page 146

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 how can I develop a framework for following up**  **2 for investigating complaints about compliance**  **3 and for rewarding people that do comply and**  **4 for sanctioning those that don't comply, how**  **5 does the actual thing we're forcing them to**  **6 comply with, how is the requirement necessary**  **7 for me to do -- why is it a stopping point?**  **8 MS. SHEPHERD: Because we --**  **9 MR. RAWALD: I mean, I'm trying to**  **10 discuss the framework of what that would be.**  **11 How do I investigate how to reward and**  **12 sanction that?**  **13 MS. SHEPHERD: Because I think you**  **14 have to look at the behavior. I mean, the**  **15 enforcement isn't triggered until you don't**  **16 have compliance.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **18 MS. SHEPHERD: So I think the**  **19 question that we're hearing is is this**  **20 compliant? I mean, is this, is this going to**  **21 -- is this going to be something that triggers**  **22 an enforcement action?** 

### Page 147

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **2 MS. SHEPHERD: I think that's the**  **3 central question. You have to start with what**  **4 is, what is the actual, what is the activity**  **5 that will trigger the enforcement action? And**  **6 then how, what information does the department**  **7 need in order to determine whether people are**  **8 complying. So I don't --**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Right. So you're**  **10 saying -- what I'm hearing you saying is we**  **11 wouldn't know what to investigate because we**  **12 wouldn't know what the scope of the, of the**  **13 offense would be, so in order to decide what**  **14 investigative tools we need we need to**  **15 understand what the offense would be? Is that**  **16 what you're saying?**  **17 MS. SHEPHERD: Well, for this**  **18 particular issue I think that yes, I mean,**  **19 that -- I think, what I'm hearing the question**  **20 is is this something that will trigger an**  **21 enforcement action?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Yes.** 

### Page 148

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. SHEPHERD: Is this, is this an**  **2 activity that DOE is going to enforce? And if**  **3 it is, then I think you have a conversation of**  **4 how would you determine the tools you need to**  **5 enforce that and everything. But if we don't,**  **6 and but if the answer to that first question**  **7 is no, then you don't need to have a**  **8 conversation about enforcement.**  **9 MR. EISNER: What I'm hearing is**  **10 you're looking at it after they've taken the**  **11 action of shipping the item. They want to**  **12 know before they ship it whether it's a**  **13 violation.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: I guess the thing,**  **15 what I'm, what I'm saying is, and what I want**  **16 to make sure is because everyone seemed to be**  **17 at least a consensus that this is a very**  **18 important issue that without it being solved**  **19 we can't even develop a framework. And so**  **20 what I'm trying to really understand the**  **21 problem is, and I'll analogize to, say, the**  **22 criminal context.** 

### Page 149

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 When I say I need to know if**  **2 stabbing someone with a knife is a crime or**  **3 not. If we know that the police are going to**  **4 look at, look at, look into and everyone says**  **5 someone who was injured, if they're willing to**  **6 talk to the forensic pathologist about what**  **7 happened, if they're going to find out if the**  **8 person's alive or dead. So those are things**  **9 that they can do to kind of investigate, and**  **10 they will, of course, to investigate alleged**  **11 enforcement without knowing actually what the**  **12 actual thing that was done wrong was.**  **13 So I think we can talk about**  **14 different things that we can do to investigate**  **15 or to monitor compliance without necessarily**  **16 having to answer this question. At least**  **17 that's my sense of it, but if I'm wrong, I see**  **18 the whole room saying, no, no, we really need**  **19 to know the answer to this.**  **20 That's fine, and I, and I want to**  **21 make sure I covered it, but hey, listen, we're**  **22 stuck here, and I can't, no matter what I do,** 

### Page 150

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I can't get in the buzz because they won't do**  **2 anything else until we get an answer here.**  **3 MS. SHEPHERD: I just have one**  **4 final thing. Was it, I think one thing that**  **5 we've heard a lot about is the use of**  **6 information, too, as an enforcement tool.**  **7 Information about what? I mean, if you don't**  **8 know what the activity was that triggered the**  **9 enforcement, how can you know what information**  **10 you actually do have?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: No. I think it's a**  **12 very fair point. I think it's a very fair**  **13 point. And Karen and Glen and then Gary all**  **14 put up their hands up, so --**  **15 MS. MEYERS: So for me it's as**  **16 simple as this.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: That's Karen Meyers.**  **18 MS. MEYERS: How do I develop an**  **19 enforcement plan when I don't know what I'm**  **20 supposed to be enforcing?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **22 MS. MEYERS: I think it goes to** 

### Page 151

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the dry R22. I think it goes to what is a 14**  **2 SEER. And this is also very, very**  **3 time-sensitive because, for our customers. I**  **4 had a call while we were on break. Do you**  **5 have an answer on the dry R22 issue? That**  **6 was, I'm going to see a customer. He's**  **7 wanting to know what can I tell him? So yeah,**  **8 it -- and we can't, we have to forecast. We**  **9 have to plan. We have to order components.**  **10 We have to do all that which is months of**  **11 doing that.**  **12 And so it becomes a very critical**  **13 answer to the marketplace. So as Chuck was**  **14 referring to in his earlier comment, you know,**  **15 a lot of behavior is driven off, you know, the**  **16 market forces. And so I can't, I can't --**  **17 it's difficult for me to provide input into a**  **18 successful enforcement plan if I don't know**  **19 what it is I'm supposed to be enforcing.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: I understand that**  **21 you're frustrated.**  **22 MS. MEYERS: But that's it, that's** 

### Page 152

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it for me.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Yeah. And I'm just**  **3 trying, I'm trying to do my best to go back**  **4 here and see if we can stand up and I don't**  **5 know where we're coming from. So but what I**  **6 hear the main question being on the R22 at**  **7 this point is does insulation of a condenser**  **8 that is dry ship with R22 to be added later,**  **9 is that considered installation under regional**  **10 standards or is that simply a replacement part**  **11 and therefore would not be subject to the**  **12 regional standards.**  **13 MS. MEYERS: Yes.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: But that seems to me**  **15 to be the central question that we need to**  **16 answer.**  **17 MR. FERNSTROM: And this is Gary.**  **18 So to go to the next part of your thinking,**  **19 which is how does that affect general rules we**  **20 might develop around enforcement? The answer**  **21 to that question is relatively simple.**  **22 The unit may or may not be shipped** 

### Page 153

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 from the manufacturer to a distributor and to**  **2 the south that's the enforcement question.**  **3 And there would presumably be some reporting**  **4 that would let you know whether or not that**  **5 happens. So the enforcement question is a**  **6 much smaller part of the question than what**  **7 the requirement is. That's a much larger part**  **8 of the issue.**  **9 MS. NOLL: So, Liz Noll, NRDC, so**  **10 if we set aside to asking two questions, why**  **11 can't we, as Doug is suggesting, continue to**  **12 move forward on what are the pieces that the**  **13 parties are going to be required to do**  **14 regardless of whether the R22 is or is not a**  **15 compliant piece?**  **16 So I mean, we could, we could move**  **17 forward under the assumption that it is**  **18 noncompliant and say, okay, manufacturers, I**  **19 mean, because that is, that is strictly on**  **20 whether or not you are going to be continuing**  **21 manufacturing and shipping those units, but**  **22 what is the -- going to be required of you** 

### Page 154

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 under any piece?**  **2 MR. FERNSTROM: Those units will**  **3 still be legal in the north.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: That's Gary.**  **5 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm sorry. Those**  **6 units will still be legal in the north and so**  **7 they'll still be in production. So there's no**  **8 question about that and, you know, Doug, back**  **9 to your, you know, knife analogy, just to kind**  **10 of put a little color around at least where**  **11 I'm coming from, we experience a lot of**  **12 situations as a manufacturer where there are**  **13 terrible things that happen in the field that**  **14 we have had nothing to do with. But we still**  **15 run into legal situations. It goes from the**  **16 homeowner through the DA back to the**  **17 distributor and it lands in the manufacturer's**  **18 lap a lot.**  **19 And so that's, you know, I**  **20 understand what you're saying, but it, things**  **21 in our world as a manufacturer seem to have**  **22 this string attached to it, and it always** 

### Page 155

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 comes pulled back right to our laps. And so**  **2 that's where the concern is. I understand**  **3 what you're saying, but, you know, our**  **4 experience has been it comes back and finds us**  **5 every time.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: So but I think it's,**  **7 and this is Doug, I think it's a right**  **8 discussion we can have later on today about**  **9 where does manufacturer liability end**  **10 reasonably?**  **11 Where can we really put the end of**  **12 it? And I think it's a question we have**  **13 regardless of the R22 issue. I think it's**  **14 something we can talk about here and it's then**  **15 we could at least develop a little more here.**  **16 So Andy wants to talk about it, too.**  **17 I think I have a good grasp of it,**  **18 I think, from people who are nodding their**  **19 heads and seems like they at least understand.**  **20 So anything else you want to add, Tim? You**  **21 had your hand up so I'll give you a chance to**  **22 do this.** 

### Page 156

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. ROCKY: Well, it's crazy, so**  **2 --**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Well, I can certainly**  **4 talk if you don't want to.**  **5 MR. ROCKY: Yeah.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: So --**  **7 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. My**  **8 question I guess is where does this leave**  **9 labeling for the R22 dry shipped units? I**  **10 don't know what the practice is today and I**  **11 don't know, you know, what the practice will**  **12 be January 1st, but I think it's a subsidiary**  **13 question to what is going to be required here.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: That's all. Does**  **15 anybody have an idea? Have you guys thought**  **16 about that? Like will you --**  **17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I don't think that**  **18 the label is, this is Charlie at ACCA, I don't**  **19 think the label is reflective of the gas that**  **20 it's intended to be used for.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: That's correct.**  **22 MR. MCCRUDDEN: It's just a** 

### Page 157

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 performance.**  **2 MR. BALLO: But the label is still**  **3 making a representation about the SEER --**  **4 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Sure.**  **5 MR. BALLO: -- performance of the**  **6 unit with the --**  **7 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Well, yeah.**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **9 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Don't want that**  **10 one.**  **11 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with**  **12 AHRI. The EPA is requiring you label that for**  **13 oncoming.**  **14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Oh.**  **15 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with**  **16 Allied. The current practice on R22 is it**  **17 only has one rating. It doesn't have a**  **18 plethora of ratings. It has one rating so,**  **19 you know, under the guise of the Energy Guide**  **20 label it'll have one rating. It will have the**  **21 bar of what's available in the market, but it**  **22 won't have the range for that unit.** 

### Page 158

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MR. RAWALD: But there are, there **2 were 14 SEER up and could be 14 SEER dry 3 products. Okay. There are some R22**  **4 containers that might be able to do this for 5 us.**  **6 MR. WINNGINHAM: And again, this 7 is Dave at Allied. When we transitioned from**  **8 R22 to R410A, there were products, single 9 speed product that were above 13 SEER. The**  **10 reason that those aren't prevalent in the 11 market today is because they were more**  **12 expensive than a 13 SEER product. 13 And in a replacement situation as**  **14 has been outlined here, you know, people are 15 going to go to the lowest common denominator**  **16 and manufacturers haven't chosen to actively 17 market 14 SEER products to date. But that**  **18 could change. 19 MR. RAWALD: And I put words**  **20 probably in your mouth, so I think you might 21 want to jump in there.**  **22 MR. SACHS: All right. This is**

### Page 159

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Harvey. Just for background, the SEER 13**  **2 transition as I recall was December 1 of 2000**  **3 -- January 1, 2006. Now it's February 20th --**  **4 it's February 23rd. February 23 I can --**  **5 MR. RAWALD: That was Harvey.**  **6 MR. SACHS: But essentially 8-1/2**  **7 years ago. The phase out of R22 was early**  **8 2010. I'll cover my bets there. So the point**  **9 would be that the R22 equipment we were**  **10 informed of I believe by AHRI that the**  **11 shipment weighted average at the time of just**  **12 before the transition to SEER 13 was about 11.**  **13 So there were very few very high efficiency**  **14 units during the SEER 10 world, but there were**  **15 some.**  **16 But where I'm going with that is**  **17 that DOE might logically argue that shipping**  **18 the dry charge R22 unit to a southern**  **19 distributor or a distributor selling one to a**  **20 southern contractor is presumptive evidence**  **21 that this will not be a compliant product as**  **22 installed in a SEER 14 region.** 

### Page 160

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I suspect that if we went back to**  **2 the AHRI tables, and I'm really asking this as**  **3 a question for you, at the time that there**  **4 were very few models. And what we're talking**  **5 about is an average life of air conditioners,**  **6 the median life is well over a decade, so**  **7 almost everything that's had its condensing**  **8 unit fail is going to be a pre-SEER 13 for the**  **9 next couple of years, a pre-SEER 13 R22 unit.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And I think**  **11 we've spent a lot of time on the R22, and I**  **12 think I really have a good grasp of the issue**  **13 at the moment so what we need to go back to**  **14 and get an answer on. So we'll work on that.**  **15 Any final attacks on there from**  **16 the troops? Matt had at least one other issue**  **17 we have to talk about, so, and that was how**  **18 you tell a 14, right? That was the second**  **19 issue you brought up initially?**  **20 MR. LATTANZI: Yes.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Yeah. And that's a**  **22 separate issue.** 

### Page 161

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. LATTANZI: Right.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: So once -- let's move**  **3 to that. So how do you tell a 14? So that**  **4 seems pretty, let's talk more about that.**  **5 What does that mean? Matt?**  **6 MR. LATTANZI: Well, without**  **7 taking a position at this point --**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **9 MR. LATTANZI: -- I'll try and lay**  **10 out what I feel the question is and others can**  **11 jump in. But I feel the question is again it**  **12 comes down to 14 SEER air conditioners in the**  **13 South specifically, what defines that product?**  **14 And today a single stage air conditioner**  **15 that's 13 SEER is defined as 13 SEER by the**  **16 coil only rating. So I feel the question is**  **17 what's that definition in the regional**  **18 standards world for a 14 SEER air conditioner**  **19 in the southern region?**  **20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would --**  **21 MR. LATTANZI: And please others**  **22 elaborate a little further?** 

### Page 162

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I engage here?**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, Ashley can**  **3 engage. That's not a problem.**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why would it**  **5 change?**  **6 MR. LATTANZI: Good question.**  **7 This is Matt. I don't know what, well, I**  **8 don't feel it's defined. If we look at the**  **9 Energy Guide label as laid out by the FTC, it**  **10 shows a range in a southern market that**  **11 includes 13, but maybe I've got this wrong,**  **12 but please clarify.**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So well, and I'll**  **14 ask you a question before I give an answer.**  **15 I'm going to reserve to you --**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Right, and I think**  **17 Ashley what you're asking is, so we, everyone**  **18 agrees with the definition as far as what 13**  **19 SEER would be defined by the coil only**  **20 testing, right? So the question is why would**  **21 we presume that it would be different in a**  **22 regional context? And Karen, you had an** 

### Page 163

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 answer?**  **2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So just one**  **3 second. To follow on with that, coil only**  **4 doesn't have meaning as it exists just a 13**  **5 SEER unit. A coil only unit is a type of unit**  **6 based on how it's shipped. Not on the label**  **7 itself, so why would it matter all of a sudden**  **8 because it's a 13 SEER ratable?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: And Ashley, am I**  **10 speaking out of turn? It says the coil only**  **11 significance is for a means of testing, right,**  **12 for determining the rating?**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, rating --**  **14 MR. RAWALD: So that's why it's**  **15 significant.**  **16 MR. AMRANE: Well, that's fine,**  **17 but still the question is you might have the**  **18 coil only rating at 13 but you can still**  **19 achieve 14 with other things and I think that**  **20 according to FTC that's perfectly legal.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And so I don't**  **22 want to go into what FTC has said about them.** 

### Page 164

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I'm not, we're not well-versed in that, so I**  **2 don't want to go into that, but my point of**  **3 view, so the question Ashley asked is why**  **4 should the regional context be different than**  **5 what the definition we have in place? And**  **6 Karen had an answer she thought.**  **7 MS. MEYERS: So I think the**  **8 confusion comes up in two areas. The**  **9 manufacturer is responsible for the rating.**  **10 The 14 SEER is effective with the**  **11 installation, and the Energy Guide label shows**  **12 that that could go on a condensing unit and**  **13 the example and the labeling rule shows could**  **14 be 13 to 14.2. So to me that outdoor unit**  **15 could be legally sold anywhere in the United**  **16 States depending upon what it's installed**  **17 with. So how do we as, you know, and this is,**  **18 really I think probably affects OEMs the most,**  **19 we don't know what it's being installed with.**  **20 But we are responsible for the rating. So I**  **21 think that's where the whole confusion, I**  **22 don't --** 

### Page 165

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: So Karen, is your --**  **2 your question isn't how do you test versus a**  **3 coil only test or a blower test?**  **4 MS. MEYERS: No. We're not saying**  **5 --**  **6 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **7 MR. RAWALD: The question really**  **8 is is okay, we have a range of ratings and are**  **9 we are going to be held responsible for if**  **10 somebody -- we're selling it at 13 and 14.2**  **11 and the guy that decides to install it in a**  **12 region with the coils that make it operate**  **13 below 14, we didn't know that. That's the**  **14 question.**  **15 MS. MEYERS: And that's what sets**  **16 the whole thing for manufacturer.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: But I guess the whole**  **18 thing we were going on this so I want to make**  **19 sure I understand the question. So Harvey?**  **20 MR. SACHS: So it's --**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Harvey is talking**  **22 here. He's chomping at the bit.** 

### Page 166

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **2 MR. SACHS: It gets better and I**  **3 think I'm, I could be confused, but here's why**  **4 it gets better. The ratings, the test method**  **5 is pretty indifferent to the ability to remove**  **6 humidity, the latent heat capacity, not**  **7 completely but pretty much so. Now, if I have**  **8 a smaller coil, a smaller evaporator with the**  **9 same air flow and the same condensing unit,**  **10 I'll wring out more moisture and leave drier**  **11 air. I'll avoid the cold clammies.**  **12 So I have an incentive to give a**  **13 southern customer, a Southeastern customer**  **14 more comfort by using a smaller evaporator,**  **15 but it's unlikely to get as high a SEER rating**  **16 as if I use a large evaporator.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: What is --**  **18 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **19 MR. CLARK: You want a big, big**  **20 evaporator.**  **21 MR. RAWALD: And that's got --**  **22 MR. SACHS: I want a big** 

### Page 167

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 evaporator at SEER 14.**  **2 MR. CLARK: No, no, no. If you're**  **3 just talking about humidity you want to remove**  **4 humidity. You want the biggest evaporator you**  **5 can get.**  **6 MR. SACHS: But other --**  **7 MR.CLARK: -- with the lowest air**  **8 flow.**  **9 MR. SACHS: With the lowest air**  **10 flow, but I was thinking, I'm sorry, I was**  **11 thinking in terms of a fixed speed.**  **12 MR. CLARK: Relatively speaking**  **13 the system that you described it will not be**  **14 good at removing humidity in the South.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: And I think Dave**  **16 wanted in at this point, too.**  **17 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave.**  **18 It's really it's what evaporator temperature**  **19 that you run.**  **20 MR. SACHS: Right.**  **21 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. That's,**  **22 and Harvey can be right and Gary can be right.** 

### Page 168

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **2 MR. SACHS: No, I mean, this is**  **3 what I do for a living.**  **4 MR. WINNINGHAM: There are, it's**  **5 one evaporator temperature that you use and**  **6 that you run it at, okay? And you can get**  **7 that by running air flow up and down or you**  **8 can get it by running coil size up and down.**  **9 Okay? But the size of the evaporator has a**  **10 definite impact on the capacity that you get**  **11 out and the efficiency.**  **12 MR. PORTER: But temperature being**  **13 equal, coil size.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: And that's Steve**  **15 Porter.**  **16 MR. PORTER: This is Steve Porter.**  **17 It's the coil, right?**  **18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yeah, you will be**  **19 at more capacity --**  **20 MR. PORTER: Yes.**  **21 MR. WINNINGHAM: You will get more**  **22 capacity with a larger coil but in order to** 

### Page 169

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 maintain that S over T you're going to have to**  **2 run a lower air flow.**  **3 MR. PORTER: Right.**  **4 MR. SACHS: So the bottom line for**  **5 the lawyers in the room is it's complicated.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: And I -- this is**  **7 Doug. So I get that, but the question Karen**  **8 posed is different than the question I thought**  **9 from hearing yesterday.**  **10 MR. SACHS: Right.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: So the question I'm**  **12 hearing from Karen is that we have a label**  **13 that has a range, and so we as the**  **14 manufacturer are putting it out there into the**  **15 world with this range, acknowledging the fact**  **16 that it may depending on the coil that it**  **17 won't be compliant when it's installed. And**  **18 so we don't want to be responsible for that.**  **19 That's what I hear you saying.**  **20 MS. MEYERS: See that --**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Going with the scope**  **22 of this group, that seems to be the question** 

### Page 170

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for this group to decide. Never mind the**  **2 question that DOE is looking at after this**  **3 group. The group needs to decide where does**  **4 the manufacturer liability end in the context**  **5 of what you can control? I need to hear that.**  **6 We need to discuss that. I think that's a**  **7 fair discussion.**  **8 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter of**  **9 Johnstone Supply. She has the question**  **10 absolutely right.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **12 MR. PORTER: In our opinion.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Rick? And so**  **14 Dave, you had your hand up, too?**  **15 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, it's the**  **16 same question but just to elaborate, I mean,**  **17 you can have an outdoor condenser that may**  **18 have four, three or four, maybe five different**  **19 add-on programs. One is what is the most**  **20 commonly sold.**  **21 But then there can be thousands of**  **22 permutations of, I've got air handler matches** 

### Page 171

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and those same coils with a plethora of**  **2 different furnaces that you can get a 13 SEER**  **3 system you could drive it up to 15 or above.**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not unless you**  **5 offer for sale those combinations.**  **6 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes.**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's the**  **8 difference. So you can't just, you understand**  **9 the difference between a coil only test**  **10 requirement and the blower coil requirement?**  **11 MR. WINNINGHAM: Absolutely.**  **12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can't just**  **13 take a coil only test and test it with a more**  **14 efficient blower to get a higher number and**  **15 sell it only as a coil only unit. We all**  **16 understand that?**  **17 MR. WINNINGHAM: I understand**  **18 that.**  **19 MR. SACHS: Yes. We do.**  **20 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay.**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So I mean**  **22 that's pretty clear, right? That's pretty** 

### Page 172

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 clear in our test procedures is that coil only**  **2 unit when it's going to be installed as a coil**  **3 only unit has to use the coil only test. And**  **4 you don't get the benefit of a more efficient**  **5 blower and the SEER rating when using a coil**  **6 only test.**  **7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. This is**  **8 Dave.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **10 MR. WINNINGHAM: But the, but the**  **11 Energy Guide label shows that entire path and**  **12 it is a valid rating.**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you, it's a**  **14 valid rating only if it's a rating at all to**  **15 begin with. And it can't be a rating at all**  **16 to begin with if you never sell and install**  **17 that system with a, as a blower coil unit.**  **18 MS. MEYERS: I'm confused.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Okay. So Ashley's**  **20 asking a different question.**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This is not**  **22 your question.** 

### Page 173

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. MEYERS: Okay.**  **2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how you**  **3 determine, purely how you determine rating.**  **4 MS. MEYERS: So let me ask you**  **5 this question. Let's take regional standards**  **6 off the table.**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yeah. It's a much**  **8 easier without them.**  **9 MS. MEYERS: So you have a**  **10 national standard. We all rate our products**  **11 to the national standard which means that you**  **12 have to rate it based upon a coil only rating.**  **13 MR. SACHS: For a single stage air**  **14 conditioner.**  **15 MS. MEYERS: Single stage air**  **16 conditioner. Would you agree with that?**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.**  **18 MS. MEYERS: So therefore we know**  **19 that we cannot manufacture anything that can**  **20 get less than the federal minimum unless it's**  **21 got a coil only high sales volume tested**  **22 combination which is defined in the rating** 

### Page 174

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 procedure. So it's easy for us to determine**  **2 from a manufacturer if what we're selling is**  **3 legal or not.**  **4 When it comes to 14 are we, one of**  **5 my questions is if you are going to sell that**  **6 condensing unit in the South, does the same**  **7 rating procedure apply in that it has to have**  **8 a coil only rating that gets 14? It is not**  **9 based upon how the unit is installed, which**  **10 could mean that it could get 14.8 or 14.2.**  **11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or something**  **12 lower.**  **13 MS. MEYERS: Or something -- yeah,**  **14 to me should the legal, the minimum**  **15 requirement for a condensing unit to be**  **16 shipped in the South, does it have to get the**  **17 coil only rating of 14 and not a 13 SEER coil**  **18 only rating that would, is, if it's installed**  **19 with an ECM-equipped blower get 14.2.**  **20 MS. ARMSTRONG: In the field.**  **21 MS. MEYERS: In the field.**  **22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a different** 

### Page 175

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 question.**  **2 MS. MEYERS: But that's the**  **3 question we --**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they're two**  **5 different questions.**  **6 MS. MEYERS: But that's actually,**  **7 you know, what do we do from a manufacturer's**  **8 perspective?**  **9 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's a test**  **10 procedure question.**  **11 MS. MEYERS: So I have this unit,**  **12 I have two condensing units. One has a coil**  **13 only rating of 13.0. If I put that unit in**  **14 the field with an ECM-equipped air moving**  **15 device, furnace, air handler, whatever, it can**  **16 get 14. So I don't know how it's going to be**  **17 installed, but it can in fact get a 14 SEER.**  **18 Can I ship that unit to the south?**  **19 MR. LATTANZI: Well, can it be**  **20 installed in the South with that air mover and**  **21 be a legal system?**  **22 MS. MEYERS: Or I have this other** 

### Page 176

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 condensing unit that gets a 14.0 coil only**  **2 rating. I'm rating it, you know, that's the**  **3 minimum it will achieve is 14.0. Is that the**  **4 only unit, I mean, it could get up to 15 with,**  **5 if it's installed with an ECM-equipped air**  **6 moving device.**  **7 Is that the only unit I can ship**  **8 to the South because I know the minimum that**  **9 it can get is 14, whereas the 13 can I ship**  **10 that to the South? The only way it's going to**  **11 meet the minimum is if it is installed with an**  **12 ECM-equipped air moving device.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. I think I**  **14 understand the scope of your question now. I**  **15 think, Karen, you've done a really remarkably**  **16 good job of explaining the issue. And so I**  **17 think what Ashley and I need to go back and**  **18 talk to our folks and make sure that we have**  **19 a very good answer for you. I think this is**  **20 really helpful.**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have to.**  **22 MS. MEYERS: Well, the reason we** 

### Page 177

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have the rating is --**  **2 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **3 MR. RAWALD: I don't have an**  **4 answer for you but I'm asking you for to give**  **5 us time for us to talk about it before we**  **6 actually give an answer.**  **7 MS. NOLL: Can this --**  **8 MR. RAWALD: So the answer is --**  **9 MS. MEYERS: Is that in or out of**  **10 our scope, right?**  **11 MR. RAWALD: So I think that some**  **12 of this question is within the scope of this**  **13 group, and some of this question may not be,**  **14 and so I want to make sure that Ashley and I**  **15 come to an accord about what we're going to**  **16 say here and make sure that everybody knows --**  **17 I don't want to ask anyone to come back. I**  **18 want to give you good information.**  **19 MS. MEYERS Okay.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: So I understand the**  **21 issue though very well now. This is very**  **22 helpful. So I know you're chomping at the bit** 

### Page 178

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to give me answers, but luckily we are near**  **2 lunch.**  **3 And so Matt has his hands up.**  **4 Chuck has his hands up. Everyone wants to**  **5 talk.**  **6 MR. LATTANZI: Well, I just want**  **7 to, and I think it was already said. I just**  **8 want to make sure. But what's driving the**  **9 ambiguity here in question is the FTC**  **10 promulgated rule because within that rule is**  **11 an example of an Energy Guide label that**  **12 allows that 13 SEER unit that makes 14 with an**  **13 ECM indoor to be installed in the South.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: I get that. I know**  **15 that.**  **16 MR. LATTANZI: I wasn't sure if**  **17 that was clear.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: No, I captured that.**  **19 I thought that the 13 to 14.2 was meant to,**  **20 hey, this could be installed in the North and**  **21 anyway but it could only be sold in the South**  **22 if it had this particular thing, the coil has** 

### Page 179

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to match with that rating. That's how the**  **2 label reads right now. I get that concern**  **3 from the label. I do understand that.**  **4 MR. EISNER: And in their document**  **5 do they explain anything about the label and**  **6 what it means in terms of where it can be**  **7 sold? Or did they just put an example of the**  **8 label?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: No, the label itself**  **10 says it can be sold in these regions as long**  **11 as it's paired with a coil that gets to this**  **12 number. That's what causes their**  **13 consternation.**  **14 It says here is the number, and it**  **15 says if you pair with it with a coil that gets**  **16 this number it's legal and it can't. It's**  **17 not. So it actually implies it could be sold**  **18 in a region even though it's below that with**  **19 other, with certain coils.**  **20 MR. LATTANZI: Right. To further**  **21 amplify that, it shows the range of 12 to 14.2**  **22 MR. RAWALD: No, I get it. And** 

### Page 180

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we've put out three units so I know exactly**  **2 what you're talking about.**  **3 MR. LATTANZI: Okay.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Harvey?**  **5 MR. SACHS: Last year some of the**  **6 manufacturers of water heaters including**  **7 Karen's organization and NRECA and a number of**  **8 other people got together to talk about**  **9 possible waivers that would allow the sale of**  **10 grid connected and grid enabled larger systems**  **11 water heaters after new water heater rule**  **12 takes effect.**  **13 One of the proposals that was**  **14 booted about was one that would allow the sale**  **15 under specified conditions and specific**  **16 warnings and yadda, yadda, yadda.**  **17 But the relevant thing here, which**  **18 I'm not advocating but offering as part of the**  **19 mix of possible solutions was a label on all**  **20 the marketing information on the water heater**  **21 itself on its box that simply said this thing**  **22 is legal only in conjunction with an** 

### Page 181

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 appropriate utility control program, and**  **2 indeed its capacity has been controlled so**  **3 that it will not offer full capacity unless**  **4 it's been activated by that utility program.**  **5 So just back in this context of**  **6 information one possible route, and again, I'm**  **7 not advocating that, which might or might not**  **8 require FTC is some labeling language that**  **9 says, for example, not legal for sale in the**  **10 South except for installation with**  **11 such-and-such rated evaporator and an ECM. So**  **12 let's just think about that as part of one**  **13 possible enforcement mechanism.**  **14 MR. ROCKY: This is Bryan. So the**  **15 issue with that, Harvey, is not for the OEMs**  **16 that I see. It's for the independent coil**  **17 manufacturers because you're asking to put a**  **18 label on the condenser unit that says with**  **19 these systems here's what's legal.**  **20 I have no control over what an ICM**  **21 is going to do with the rating or matches, and**  **22 I can't put something on my condenser just** 

### Page 182

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 like the other manufacturers that relates to**  **2 what a third-party independent coil**  **3 manufacturer is doing with my ratings, my**  **4 equipment, legitimately under the program,**  **5 whether it's AHRI or the DOE activities in the**  **6 certification program. I can't put their**  **7 information on my condenser. I can't put it**  **8 in my tech guides or my consumer websites.**  **9 MR. SACHS: Well, I appreciate**  **10 that and it's certainly not something I've**  **11 thought about when I was thinking about water**  **12 heaters. The question is does that wind up**  **13 transferring the liability from the condensing**  **14 unit OEM to the independent coil**  **15 manufacturers?**  **16 MR. ROCKY: So I'm thinking about**  **17 the process for enforcement, and the homeowner**  **18 is going to get information from any**  **19 manufacturer that says here is the information**  **20 on the OEM system match.**  **21 MR. SACHS: Yes.**  **22 MR. ROCKY: Now the contractor** 

### Page 183

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 looking to provide the most economical**  **2 solution works with an independent coil**  **3 manufacturer and says here's a system with**  **4 this match that may be less that gets you the**  **5 same efficiency. Now, how do they get the**  **6 information for the rating that is legitimate**  **7 under the Department rules?**  **8 MR. SACHS: Well, is that a place**  **9 where they can find out?**  **10 MR. ROCKY: But I think it's not**  **11 with the condenser.**  **12 MR. SACHS: And I understand that.**  **13 MR. ROCKY: Right? So it's --**  **14 MR. SACHS: So then the question**  **15 is since I haven't studied that part of the**  **16 regs, and this may have to be dismissed out of**  **17 hand, but is it conceivable that the ICM would**  **18 simply have to state that with this set of**  **19 condensing units and, you know, we need to**  **20 talk about automating that process, this is**  **21 SEER 14 and this is not SEER 14?**  **22 MR. ROCKY: Well, so I think that** 

### Page 184

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 information is available through either the**  **2 AHRI program or the Department of Energy**  **3 certification database, and now you're getting**  **4 back to the contractor and I think, you know,**  **5 like Glenn and Chuck and the others talked**  **6 about this, or Steve, but how do you put the**  **7 right information in?**  **8 I think the information is**  **9 available for the ICMs to properly rate and**  **10 have that information available. How do we**  **11 get that to the people who need it so the**  **12 consumers don't feel here's my rating on my**  **13 unit, my yellow tag on my condenser and it**  **14 says 13 to 14.2 but the tag from my ICM says**  **15 14 to 15.2, and they're both right.**  **16 MR. SACHS: I understand and it's**  **17 why my, I much appreciate it. It's why my**  **18 comments back in 2011 or 2012 suggested that**  **19 we were going to wind up being forced into**  **20 some Big Data.**  **21 MR. PORTER: Steve Porter,**  **22 Johnstone Supply, and I appreciate, Harvey,** 

### Page 185

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that, you know, concerns on liability and I'm**  **2 sure manufacturers have concerns on liability**  **3 that just answering the question that Karen**  **4 proposed is what we want to really get to is**  **5 what we communicate through the channel so the**  **6 right installation gets made. Liability is a**  **7 piece of it, but we just want to know.**  **8 MR. SACHS: Right.**  **9 MR. PORTER: And we don't know**  **10 now. So once that's answered it will go**  **11 through the channel.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: So of the two issues**  **13 that Matt raised. Is there any other issues**  **14 that you feel like, hey, these things need to**  **15 be answered by the Department separate from**  **16 what we're doing here or else we can't do this**  **17 enforce program. Those are the two main ones**  **18 and Steve, you're nodding your head. Are you**  **19 saying yes, no? You have more or you're just**  **20 nodding you head that we've got it covered?**  **21 MR. PORTER: I believe that's the**  **22 issue.** 

### Page 186

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Those are the**  **2 two ones. Okay. Anything else? Anybody else**  **3 that may have thought of last night for this?**  **4 MR. CLARK: This is the curve**  **5 ball.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: This is Gary.**  **7 MR. CLARK: I'm sorry. This is**  **8 Gary from Goodman. On this idea of dry-charge**  **9 units going like into the South, the add**  **10 thought is, you know, we're talking about it**  **11 like it's only R22. I mean, what happens if**  **12 it's a dry-charge R410A unit?**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Well, I always**  **14 wondered that. So I haven't heard that ever**  **15 before. So is that an issue?**  **16 MR. CLARK: Well, it's, you know,**  **17 I'm probably not the only guy who's ever**  **18 thought of that.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: And so the question**  **20 would be if I frame it, so could we then**  **21 dry-charge R410A so that it would be**  **22 considered a component and it would get around** 

### Page 187

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 as installed?**  **2 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Is that what you're**  **4 saying?**  **5 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave from**  **6 Allied.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Is it, basically**  **9 it boils down to is a condenser a component**  **10 and regardless of what, it could be an 8 SEER.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Or it doesn't**  **12 matter if it's dry-charge or not?**  **13 MR. WINNINGHAM: Regardless of**  **14 efficiency level, regardless of refrigerant,**  **15 is it a component or is it a system.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Right. So would**  **17 installation of a condenser alone, in no**  **18 matter what context be considered a**  **19 replacement versus being considered an install**  **20 under regional standards. That's the**  **21 question.**  **22 Okay. The bigger question.** 

### Page 188

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. NOLL: Well, the bigger part**  **2 of the question is, whatever framework we**  **3 create here is going to have ramifications.**  **4 So defining that up front matters as we move**  **5 forward into how the market will react and how**  **6 we will all participate.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Right. That makes**  **8 sense. Okay. Thank you guys for elaborating**  **9 on that. Okay. Any other issues?**  **10 MR. LATTANZI: Just a comment. I**  **11 think Steve alluded to this, but the answer to**  **12 both these questions has ramifications today,**  **13 not -- and obviously post-January 1, 2015, but**  **14 many customers and distributors and**  **15 manufacturers are trying to figure what to**  **16 build right now. And so the urgency to the**  **17 answer to your question is it's very**  **18 important.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Yeah, Matt, and this**  **20 is Doug, I think we understand that part.**  **21 MR. LATTANZI: Okay.**  **22 (Simultaneous speaking)** 

### Page 189

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: You've given me a lot**  **2 of things to think about.**  **3 MR. SURRENA: Sounds to me like**  **4 most of this hinges on whether it's for repair**  **5 of an existing system or a new installation.**  **6 New installation shouldn't be any question at**  **7 all, dry or wet or however it's put it it has**  **8 to have better efficiency. But if you're**  **9 fixing an existing system, I've got my whole**  **10 house air conditioned, add an air conditioner,**  **11 I've got X amount of money in my budget.**  **12 The darn thing quit working, so**  **13 this guy comes out and says your coil went bad**  **14 or your condensing unit went bad. Well,**  **15 whatever happens I've got to replace the whole**  **16 system now and bring it up to speed and I'm**  **17 looking down to the Wal-Mart to get window**  **18 units. That's the truth because I can't**  **19 afford that whole thing.**  **20 So at what point do we get the**  **21 consumer so that they get out of the gain? So**  **22 we gained efficiency by not letting them** 

### Page 190

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 repair a system? It's nothing to do with new**  **2 systems. The new system has to comply.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: No, I get that. So**  **4 the question seems to be from the group is**  **5 does the replacement of the condensing unit**  **6 qualify as installation or is it replacement?**  **7 That seems to be kind of the simplified**  **8 version if I were to, of the question as I**  **9 understand it.**  **10 MR. SACHS: Maybe a little too**  **11 simple.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Is it not nuanced**  **13 enough?**  **14 MR. SACHS: I think, this is**  **15 Harvey, and I think that Bryan brought out**  **16 some other components of this question.**  **17 The word components is two ways.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Any other**  **19 questions that you had thought of last night**  **20 to perplex me? Is this a good time for lunch?**  **21 MR. EISNER: Yeah, this is a good**  **22 time for lunch.** 

### Page 191

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Oh, okay. I do, Eric**  **2 is reminding me that he did some great**  **3 research during our last break and the**  **4 question was posed about the PRA requirements.**  **5 And so we did get PRA approval for record**  **6 retention.**  **7 If we were to expand the record**  **8 requirements to include new folks because they**  **9 are, you know, it's a lot of manufacturers**  **10 currently, we would have to receive that as**  **11 the Department PRA approval for that. So be**  **12 cognizant of that bureaucratic obstacle for**  **13 us.**  **14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: You would have to**  **15 what?**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Get approval for PRA,**  **17 Paperwork Reduction Act for that.**  **18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So you get to**  **19 resubmit.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: We would.**  **21 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Okay.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: And that is our** 

### Page 192

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understanding. Yeah.**  **2 MR. MCCRUDDEN: And I think for**  **3 question two?**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Yes. I just wanted**  **5 to go out and ask somebody about the standard**  **6 for retention, yes. And that's Charlie**  **7 McCrudden asking about whether we will have**  **8 record retention, yes. So and that was the**  **9 note for us. So I think what we talked about**  **10 yesterday was that the installers were going**  **11 to give us kind of an educational piece on**  **12 their stuff? Can we do that when we come back**  **13 from lunch? Are you guys ready to do that?**  **14 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **15 (Whereupon, the above-entitled**  **16 matter went off the record at 11:55 a.m. and**  **17 resumed at 1:08 p.m.)**  **18 MR. EISNER: All right, we've got**  **19 an installer who's going to do a lecture. Do**  **20 you want to come front and talk so everybody**  **21 can hear you easily or do you want to sit in**  **22 your seat?** 

### Page 193

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WHITE: Chuck White. I**  **2 work for PHCC. Prior to that, for 30 plus**  **3 years, I ran an HVAC business in South Bend,**  **4 Indiana.**  **5 I guess I gave part of a lecture**  **6 over here in my little diatribe. But the**  **7 contracting business is -- it's broad. I**  **8 mean, you have all aspects of markets, from**  **9 residential, industrial, commercial.**  **10 But in the residential,**  **11 particularly air conditioning markets we're**  **12 concerned with, you could be doing new**  **13 installations, new construction, whether it's**  **14 a single-family, multi-family, residences,**  **15 that type of work. You could be repair work.**  **16 you could be doing retro-fits and upgrades or**  **17 a combination of all of that.**  **18 So the typical contractor is, he's**  **19 reacting. He gets a call. I have a problem.**  **20 I need something done. And he has to go out**  **21 and figure it out.**  **22 If you're doing new work probably** 

### Page 194

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 somebody hands you a drawing. Maybe they hand**  **2 you some specifications. But in residential,**  **3 usually it's a here's the house or the, you**  **4 know, multi-family it's probably selected for**  **5 you. But he's probably doing some selecting**  **6 in many applications.**  **7 So he has the ability, a new**  **8 construction guy has the ability, to say well,**  **9 I want to buy a ABC condensing unit. And ABC**  **10 also makes a coil that matches with it and I**  **11 can do that or ABC makes a great condensing**  **12 unit but they're high-priced on their coils.**  **13 So I can go over to XYZ and get their coil,**  **14 and it matches. And he's pretty good.**  **15 But when you get into the**  **16 renovation and repair market it becomes more**  **17 difficult. Like I said earlier, there's**  **18 market pressures. So possibly there are other**  **19 people coming to look at this. But many times**  **20 a service technician pulls into the driveway**  **21 and there's somebody else ringing the**  **22 doorbell. Well, what are you doing here?** 

### Page 195

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Well, they called me too, and I got here**  **2 first.**  **3 Consumers don't even think about**  **4 calling anybody off if somebody else is**  **5 showing up. And, as a contractor, my service**  **6 technicians are an inventory of time. I sell**  **7 their time. I mean, if I have something I**  **8 can't sell it to that's costing.**  **9 So you come to a job and you have**  **10 to make a decision, what's wrong. And you**  **11 diagnose it, the problem. If it's minor and**  **12 fixable you proceed. But if it's a compressor**  **13 bad or outdoor condenser is eroded and leaking**  **14 badly and not really repairable, that's going**  **15 to drive you to new equipment selection.**  **16 The top-notch contractor, and I**  **17 don't want, I guess I don't want to put it in**  **18 that terms because we would tend to think**  **19 there's tops and bottom feeders. And there**  **20 are, indeed, bottom feeders. But a lot of**  **21 bottom feeders aren't really contractors.**  **22 They're kind of make-believe contractors.** 

### Page 196

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But some place they buy their**  **2 parts and some place they get their tools, and**  **3 some place they have their knowledge. And the**  **4 rest of the place they're screwing up the work**  **5 for everybody else.**  **6 But you have to make decisions for**  **7 folks and you have to say here's your choices,**  **8 and what I would really like to do for you is**  **9 put in a SEER-18 and this and this. And then**  **10 I add all this.**  **11 And people have to say, well, I**  **12 have two kids in college and the car just**  **13 needed a new bumper, and I can't do that.**  **14 Well, okay, we can go down to SEER-13 and do**  **15 this, and that means this. And if we're in**  **16 the south it's now going to be SEER-14. But**  **17 it may still be outside of their budget.**  **18 And there are times where a**  **19 contractor has to say I can't do what you want**  **20 me to do. And that happens. I mean, there**  **21 are times where you say, well, I really don't**  **22 want to do this but you need it done, and I'll** 

### Page 197

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 take care of it.**  **2 But the other thing is it's never**  **3 65 degrees when you're fixing an air**  **4 conditioner. And, let me tell you, when**  **5 people's heat is out they call up and they beg**  **6 with you. Can you please come out I'm cold,**  **7 please?**  **8 When they're air conditioning is**  **9 out they don't call up and beg. They demand.**  **10 I'm hot. I need you here. Where are you?**  **11 You were going to be here 20 minutes ago.**  **12 They're very much more demanding.**  **13 Hence, human nature. And we have**  **14 laws of physics and laws of human nature. And**  **15 we're all bound by them and we can't escape**  **16 them.**  **17 So the things we do to increase**  **18 efficiency, those laws of physics are fixed**  **19 and how I present it to people and my sales**  **20 pitch is my sales pitch. But if they don't**  **21 have the money or they don't have the**  **22 financing ability you're a crossroads. What** 

### Page 198

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 do I do?**  **2 And, I said earlier, early in my**  **3 career we changed compressors all the time.**  **4 And we were pretty good at it. And it's not**  **5 easy. Compressor change-outs are much more**  **6 difficult than changing that outdoor unit.**  **7 You have to disassemble more**  **8 things. And, nowadays, everybody thinks it's**  **9 a good idea to put the compressor in the**  **10 middle of the coil, so you've got to stand on**  **11 your head to do everything. Sorry, they**  **12 design them that way but, again, we're making**  **13 it more compact so we can get more on a**  **14 smaller footprint. I understand that too.**  **15 But we want to change a coil we**  **16 want to change condensing units. It's faster,**  **17 it's easier. It's a better job when I'm done.**  **18 They have a better piece of hardware. But now**  **19 I have these problems -- 410, efficiency**  **20 levels and all these things, and the people's**  **21 budget constraints.**  **22 And so do I go back and say, well,** 

### Page 199

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we're going to change compressors now? And**  **2 that does happen. There are occasions, even**  **3 set aside all this discussion, there are times**  **4 where you're still going to change a**  **5 compressor for some specific reason.**  **6 But when we do that, we can do it**  **7 and we can do a good job at it. But because**  **8 we got away from doing it we don't really have**  **9 as many trained people to do that. It's more**  **10 difficult, it's more technical.**  **11 And as an industry we're facing a**  **12 huge worker shortage. I don't have to tell**  **13 all aspects of the industry sitting around**  **14 here that in order for -- in the service**  **15 industry we're projecting in the next 10 years**  **16 100,000 technician shortage.**  **17 As people retire, we don't have**  **18 people coming in. As the Association, we're**  **19 out trying to market that. ACCA and PHCC and**  **20 ASHRAE and AHRI and some others, we were at**  **21 the USA Science Fair telling out story and**  **22 trying to let people know this is a good** 

### Page 200

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 career.**  **2 I mean, you don't have to go get**  **3 huge college loans and spend four years. You**  **4 can work now and provide for your family.**  **5 It's not for everybody, but college isn't for**  **6 everybody either.**  **7 So most contractors want to do the**  **8 right thing. There are some out there that**  **9 are shady and looking to turn the fastest buck**  **10 they can that way. And there are, the people**  **11 that are there working out of the back of**  **12 their truck.**  **13 And for as long as I was alive and**  **14 my dad was alive and my grandfather was alive,**  **15 they can't do that, we've got to fix it.**  **16 We're never going to fix it. It's not going**  **17 to go away. We've got to minimize this.**  **18 We've got to do the best we can to solve that.**  **19 But those of us that are in the**  **20 professional end of the industry are**  **21 interested in selling the highest efficiency**  **22 products that we can that the people can** 

### Page 201

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 afford and that we can physically do. It's in**  **2 our best interest. I mean we get a little**  **3 selfish here. It's higher efficiency**  **4 equipment, it's a higher margin. It's better**  **5 -- I mean, that's a fact of life.**  **6 But it also, my business and a lot**  **7 of people that I work with through PHCC, we're**  **8 tuned into the energy aspect. And that's one**  **9 of the pitches we make. I can give you this**  **10 SEER-13 and this is the projected cost,**  **11 operating cost.**  **12 If we go to a 14 or we go to a 16,**  **13 here's what we project the operating costs**  **14 are. It's going to be a little more money but**  **15 here's your payback. And we, most contractors**  **16 -- and ACCA has the same mentality -- I'm sure**  **17 you want us to speak as well, but we try to**  **18 educate contractors to do these things.**  **19 So the discussions about what's**  **20 SEER-14 and all these things, we need to know.**  **21 And on one hand it could be I just need a box.**  **22 When I go to Mr. Johnstone and say I need an** 

### Page 202

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 air conditioner for Mrs. Smith's house you**  **2 have to give me the box that has what works.**  **3 But I also have to know that, when I open that**  **4 box, it's correct.**  **5 And there are people out there**  **6 that are going to buy one thing from him and**  **7 one thing from him and someone over here. So**  **8 the contractor has to have a firm**  **9 understanding on this and make accurate**  **10 projections, accurate sizing.**  **11 Sizing is critical. Calculation**  **12 sizing room calculations -- you can't walk up**  **13 to a house and say, oh, you got a 3-ton unit,**  **14 3-ton's what you're getting. 3-ton's maybe**  **15 enough, maybe short, it may have been too**  **16 much, they may have put an addition on -- you**  **17 have to look at the situation because, in days**  **18 gone by, more is better.**  **19 And most people might believe you,**  **20 particularly in the furnaces. You do a load**  **21 calculation and you tell them a 70,000-BTU**  **22 furnace is fine and they say, well I got 200** 

### Page 203

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 in the basement now. Well, okay, and glad you**  **2 do but 70 is all you need and that's what you**  **3 want.**  **4 But we encourage professionalism.**  **5 When I ran the business, my son runs the**  **6 business, we come to it with an engineering**  **7 mind, many contractors do, that we need to**  **8 know the facts. We need to know how to**  **9 proceed. We need to know we're putting the**  **10 right stuff in. And that's what we want to**  **11 do.**  **12 So that's, I mean, I'm not all**  **13 hung up about what's SEER-14. If it's, if you**  **14 want to be SEER-14, fine. If it's going to be**  **15 SEER-16 maybe I'm not as happy about that.**  **16 But whatever the ground rules are, I need to**  **17 know. And I will model my business to do**  **18 that.**  **19 Are there going to be bottom**  **20 feeders out there cheating? Are there going**  **21 to be -- yes. But we need to try to minimize**  **22 those? Yes. Are we going to stamp them out** 

### Page 204

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 or are they going to go away? Sorry, I don't**  **2 think so. But, I mean, I would sure love it**  **3 because in any market, any contractor's**  **4 market, they're screwing up your business.**  **5 So I don't know if there's --**  **6 Glenn, do you want to add anything or**  **7 Carolyn's got anything or if you have any**  **8 questions you'd like to ask me. But that, I**  **9 mean, I'm running a reactionary business**  **10 responding to people's needs on issues as best**  **11 I can in a short time frame. They want it**  **12 fixed now, not two weeks from now.**  **13 MR. EISNER: Can you talk a little**  **14 bit now about what kind of inventory you keep**  **15 and what kind of record-keeping you do and**  **16 whether it's electronic --**  **17 MEMBER WHITE: Inventory wise, in**  **18 my business, minimum. Inventory is money.**  **19 And what do I buy? Do I buy a bunch of 2-ton**  **20 units, 3-ton units, 4-ton units? I don't want**  **21 stuff sitting around.**  **22 So if I know I have a project --** 

### Page 205

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 my son's doing a project right now for a house**  **2 that's a big house. It's two 4-ton systems.**  **3 It's a really nice house. So I contact the**  **4 guy that I deal with and say, hey, I've got**  **5 this and he calculates up sizes and gets us**  **6 the stuff. And, you know, magically, it shows**  **7 up on the truck and we're ready to go.**  **8 But, parts wise, we'll have fan**  **9 motors, we'll have transformers, stuff like**  **10 that. So you've got parts inventory. But as**  **11 far as hardware, my business, we don't try to**  **12 stock much.**  **13 There are other people that will,**  **14 that will -- where we were not a big**  **15 residential dealer. There are businesses in**  **16 my town that are, and I'm sure they buy -- I'm**  **17 not privy to how they operate.**  **18 But I'm sure that they'll buy**  **19 whatever the quantity -- 10, 8, 20, whatever**  **20 gets them a price break to stock up for the**  **21 season. And they have historical, you know,**  **22 we've done so many all these years and they've** 

### Page 206

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 done some summers where it comes around to**  **2 bite you because we've had some summers where**  **3 it's been cool and we didn't sell very many**  **4 air conditioners. This summer hasn't really**  **5 been very much of an issue.**  **6 Record-keeping, we will track the**  **7 information per job in our -- we have a**  **8 software system that tracks our customers and**  **9 clients in a database and all that. So go to**  **10 Mrs. Smith and, you know, in 2008 we did this**  **11 and in 2010 we did that. She bought a new**  **12 unit. She did this or did that.**  **13 But I don't have, other than the**  **14 software version, that that's what we keep.**  **15 Obviously everything that gets purchased we've**  **16 got a receipt for. And, you know, broke the**  **17 bottom of the filing cabinets to keep all that**  **18 stuff. But we've got cabinets full of**  **19 purchases from this wholesaler or that**  **20 wholesaler or whatever.**  **21 So you probably could ask me the**  **22 first job we did and I could probably find the** 

### Page 207

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 invoice that we billed someone. I doubt I'd**  **2 have the wholesalers' invoices anymore for any**  **3 of that stuff. We don't keep that forever.**  **4 But that's about all we do -- yes.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Some, I want -- just,**  **6 I want to follow up on that record-keeping but**  **7 it's important to know kind of what folks are**  **8 keeping already versus what we, if we were to**  **9 do some record retention what would be added**  **10 to their burden.**  **11 So it sounds like that, at least**  **12 in your business, you keep track of the**  **13 customer and who they are, other than that,**  **14 when you install a unit do you keep serial**  **15 numbers? What do you keep as far as what**  **16 you've installed in that person's house?**  **17 MEMBER WHITE: Well, we will keep,**  **18 I mean we have the packing, the shipping**  **19 documents with the serial numbers. Usually**  **20 that's entered on the job, record. But those**  **21 are our confidential business records. I'm**  **22 not interested in sharing that with anybody.** 

### Page 208

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And I get **2 that. And we did discuss about, like, what 3 you -- I'm just kind of curious what people**  **4 like to collect and just kind of give a scope 5 of what is out there.**  **6 MEMBER WHITE: And it depends on 7 the contractors. But most contractors are**  **8 going to keep the client and the sizing so 9 they know that Mrs. Smith was a 3-ton, Mr.**  **10 Johnstone's house was a 2-ton or -- 11 MR. RAWALD: The model numbers**  **12 too? Or like the model number on the outdoor 13 unit versus the indoor?**  **14 MEMBER WHITE: Probably, but 15 sometimes not. It really depends. A lot of**  **16 contractors will line up with ABC company. 17 And so if they say they put in a 2-ton they**  **18 know it was ABC's Model 7, a 2-ton. But 19 others will have lots of detail.**  **20 The common programs, the 21 contractor programs, these days have lots of**  **22 ability. We can take camera phone pictures**

### Page 209

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 and attach them to the file. So in service**  **2 that's particularly helpful because you can**  **3 arrive and there's a fence post stuck through**  **4 the side of the air conditioner, clicked and**  **5 took a picture of that as soon as I got there.**  **6 And the homeowner says, well you**  **7 ran a fence post through my unit. No, ma'am,,**  **8 here's a picture. It was there when I got**  **9 here. And, you know, and here's what we did**  **10 and here's, you know, when we were done this**  **11 is what it looked like and, you know, this is**  **12 your carpet that I didn't leave a muddy trail**  **13 on.**  **14 Now you can document all kinds of**  **15 things, depending on the client base you're**  **16 working with. And in my career I've worked**  **17 with, from really the very poor all the way up**  **18 to the extremely rich. And you get different**  **19 behaviors out of all categories.**  **20 Some people who are economically**  **21 challenged will find ways to buy things that**  **22 will save them money. And people that have** 

### Page 210

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 significant resources aren't going to part**  **2 with it for an extra dime for anything.**  **3 And it's all over the board. And**  **4 that's one of the challenges. I'm not dealing**  **5 with a customer in a category of a certain**  **6 means every day. It's all over the board.**  **7 MR. EISNER: Any other questions?**  **8 Additions?**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Well, Chuck, if I can**  **10 follow-up, so the record retention sounds like**  **11 it varies pretty widely across the industry,**  **12 then, depending on a number of factors, both**  **13 who the contractor is and how diligent they**  **14 want to be with keeping records or how**  **15 important it is to them or if they can even**  **16 afford to keep an office staff running those**  **17 kind of things.**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: Mm-hmm.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: As well as who**  **20 they're dealing with and what they feel is**  **21 appropriate to keep because of the people**  **22 they're dealing with, possibly. So there's** 

### Page 211

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 really no kind of baseline, in your**  **2 experience, of what people -- most people**  **3 should have this thing in their data and in**  **4 their records?**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: It's just going to**  **6 depend on the contractor and what they feel is**  **7 pertinent to their information. Some people**  **8 are high volume, crank it out, turn them over,**  **9 probably never going back there again.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: Other people may be**  **12 interested in cultivating repeat business so**  **13 then you're going to tend to document more**  **14 just because you're planning on developing a**  **15 relationship. You know, we, very much, are a**  **16 relationship organization.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Your particular?**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: My particular**  **19 organization.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: And what about as far**  **21 as the energy label? Like what do you folks**  **22 do with that?** 

### Page 212

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WHITE: We put together a**  **2 little packet of stuff and there you go.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: So you give it to the**  **4 homeowner?**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, present**  **6 whatever documents we have. I would say we're**  **7 not always the best at going over what every**  **8 document means and, you know. Most people are**  **9 not -- there is a segment.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Mixed segment?**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: A segment of the**  **12 market that are very interested in what's the**  **13 most efficient thing I can do, and that's what**  **14 they want right out of the gate.**  **15 There's another section that is**  **16 pretty amenable to it. So you talk about it,**  **17 you can find out, move them up to that. I**  **18 would say the biggest section of the market is**  **19 concerned with what the bottom line on the**  **20 quote is.**  **21 It's, in the words of my**  **22 grandfather, it's an expensive business, you'd** 

### Page 213

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 better get used to it. And I, more than once,**  **2 have had the thought, if this was my house and**  **3 somebody came to my house and said, I'm sorry,**  **4 sir, your air conditioner doesn't work and**  **5 it's going to cost X, how would that hit me.**  **6 You know, there's some tough**  **7 numbers out there. And I think another thing**  **8 you have to remember, there are contractors**  **9 out there that do very well. But I think,**  **10 especially in the frame of the last 8 to 10**  **11 years it has been challenging for contractors.**  **12 There's been, typically, industry**  **13 wide, it's not a huge profit margin that**  **14 you're working with. I mean, every minute**  **15 counts. Every move counts. And there's --**  **16 it's a tough business and there's a lot of**  **17 competition. You have to try to operate as**  **18 lean and as efficiently as you can. And**  **19 there's just not a lot of spare.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I guess that**  **21 depends on -- what I was wondering, so as far**  **22 as operating leanly, so, I mean, how many of** 

### Page 214

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 these companies have people that are doing**  **2 administrative work? Or is that overhead that**  **3 people can't afford so they really -- you**  **4 know, the guy who's out there doing the work**  **5 is also the guy who's going to go home at**  **6 night and do paperwork.**  **7 MEMBER WHITE: If you're a small**  **8 business that's probably what you're doing.**  **9 If you're a one or two-man shop, you're**  **10 probably doing all that work when you get**  **11 home. You get a little bigger, you know, or**  **12 not.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: I'm sorry, what was**  **14 that Glenn?**  **15 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Or not.**  **16 MEMBER WHITE: Or not.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Or -- okay. Or not**  **18 doing the paperwork at all?**  **19 MEMBER WHITE: Right, yes. And so**  **20 most people have someone for an office staff,**  **21 even to answer the phone and do some basic**  **22 book work. And many times, especially in** 

### Page 215

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 small operations, that somebody is usually the**  **2 owner's wife or spouse. It could be the**  **3 husband if the wife runs the business, which**  **4 is not unheard of.**  **5 People drag their children into**  **6 the business. Did I mention I'm third**  **7 generation and my son's fourth? I've poisoned**  **8 the well too.**  **9 But there are big operations out**  **10 there, especially in the major metropolitan**  **11 areas. But in most of the small markets there**  **12 just isn't enough work there to support a 200**  **13 man operation.**  **14 In the area where I live there is**  **15 one contractor and it's supposed to be 200**  **16 trucks on the road. But he's a major**  **17 commercial/industrial, very little residential**  **18 and covers a large geographic area.**  **19 The typical contractor our area in**  **20 the residential market is going to be five to**  **21 seven to ten guys in the truck. If you have**  **22 more than 10 you're probably the big outfit in** 

### Page 216

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 our area.**  **2 And you just can't have a lot of**  **3 additional staff to do that kind of stuff.**  **4 And training wise, we rely very heavily on**  **5 wholesalers. Contractors rely very heavily on**  **6 wholesaler for their seminars they put on.**  **7 They'll get manufacturers to come in and do**  **8 something about new equipment or refrigeration**  **9 classes.**  **10 PHCC will give -- and at ACCA --**  **11 give that presence in your area, and it's**  **12 fairly strong, they will do training programs**  **13 as well. Our, in my area we have a chapter**  **14 that does a kind of apprentice program. And**  **15 I'm missing my first night of Apprentice class**  **16 tonight. I've taught that for a long time.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: But that all comes**  **18 from the overhead as well, right, because the**  **19 company is sending someone to do the training.**  **20 They're not out there on the road --**  **21 MEMBER WHITE: Right. Well, our**  **22 -- correct. And if, in terms of** 

### Page 217

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 apprenticeship, that's usually after hours.**  **2 But in terms of seminars for refrigeration or**  **3 other technical things, that's usually during**  **4 the day, and that's usually going to be a loss**  **5 of productivity.**  **6 Most places, unless you're mom and**  **7 pop, most people are going to have to pay**  **8 their technicians to go to those things. But**  **9 usually it's well worth it. You're**  **10 strengthening your workforce in the technical**  **11 aspects. It's benefits you to do that.**  **12 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So this is Gary**  **13 for the California IOUs. Do you fill out and**  **14 use warranty cards that the manufacturers**  **15 provide?**  **16 MEMBER WHITE: Oh, well, we never**  **17 have a warranty calls. Just to -- yes, if**  **18 there's a warranty situation, sure you --**  **19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Well, I don't**  **20 usually have to go out on warranty calls. I**  **21 mean do you --**  **22 MEMBER WHITE: Register it?** 

### Page 218

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Sometimes. Sometimes it is kind of de facto**  **2 registered because we bought it. And if we**  **3 keep the purchase documents, which means**  **4 sometimes you're wading through the file**  **5 cabinet to find the invoice for the particular**  **6 unit you may have sold, but sometimes we will**  **7 register them. Sometimes the consumer will**  **8 register. Sometimes it's registered through**  **9 our relationship with our wholesaler.**  **10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Do you consider**  **11 filling out that information, which I presume**  **12 would be some model number or serial number**  **13 identifying the equipment and the location of**  **14 installation, a major burden? Or is that just**  **15 one little card that you have to fill out**  **16 that's kind of incidental?**  **17 MEMBER WHITE: I'm not sure. We**  **18 don't fill out a lot of them because we have**  **19 good wholesalers that we rely on. But I think**  **20 if you do a lot of equipment it adds to the**  **21 time for the job because you have to track all**  **22 that and get it taken care of.** 

### Page 219

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And I would like to say you could**  **2 have the technician do it while he's there but**  **3 you're lucky to get a timecard from him**  **4 sometimes. I mean, it's -- everything is**  **5 process and procedure. And I know it doesn't**  **6 sound like much. All you've got to do is**  **7 write a few things down. But it's rarely that**  **8 simple.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Right, I guess --**  **10 this is Doug -- so what you're saying, Chuck,**  **11 too is that, you know, every minute is**  **12 valuable because you're paying for time, at**  **13 this point. And time spent filling out the**  **14 card is time that could be spent installing**  **15 another unit.**  **16 MEMBER WHITE: Mm-hmm.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: And so all those**  **18 things add up, in your mind, when you're**  **19 running a small business, is what I'm hearing**  **20 you're saying from your perspective.**  **21 MR. COHEN: This is Dan Cohen at**  **22 Department of Energy too. Two follow-ups.** 

### Page 220

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So, one, on the sales where you get these you**  **2 mentioned you go out to the house or you see**  **3 where the job is and you offer maybe there's**  **4 a SEER-18, SEER-16 or 14, whatever it is, and**  **5 you price it all out. Is that -- that's done**  **6 by the salesperson or it's done by the**  **7 installer person or the two different -- I**  **8 mean --**  **9 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **10 MEMBER WHITE: That depends on the**  **11 organization. In my organization it could be**  **12 the technician. More likely, it would be my**  **13 son and, when I was there, probably me.**  **14 MR. COHEN: So you go back on a**  **15 return trip? In other words, you go out and**  **16 do kind of, assess the job or something?**  **17 MEMBER WHITE: It could be. It**  **18 might be something we could do over the phone**  **19 as well. It depends. My business was very**  **20 much, is very much, a relationship business.**  **21 I don't do a lot of cold calls. I don't do a**  **22 lot of going out looking. Most of the people** 

### Page 221

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 have contacted me. If not that, my son, these**  **2 days. We have -- somebody knows us.**  **3 But in the typical kind of bigger**  **4 organization you will have a service**  **5 technician that goes out there, finds an**  **6 issue, will make a call and a sales person**  **7 will schedule -- either try to get the whole**  **8 way out with the technician or schedule a**  **9 sales call with the consumer to say, look, we**  **10 can fix this and it's going to cost X. Or you**  **11 can do this and it's going to cost Y. You**  **12 know, what do you want to do and figure out**  **13 whether you should do one or the other.**  **14 MR. COHEN: So when that sale**  **15 comes in -- now let me ask this one. When**  **16 does the energy value label come into play?**  **17 Do you give them --**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: We're --**  **19 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **20 MR. COHEN: -- I mean, if your**  **21 sales, after a portion of this is relating to**  **22 marketing out three different units, hopefully** 

### Page 222

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I can say, gee, really, the issue was that**  **2 your coil is leaking. I mean, I think that's**  **3 another --**  **4 MEMBER WHITE: Well, the point --**  **5 MR. COHEN: It's another option**  **6 here.**  **7 MEMBER WHITE: Sure. But if it's**  **8 a -- if it's something that we're going to fix**  **9 it --**  **10 MR. COHEN: But then, again, you**  **11 could do both.**  **12 MEMBER WHITE: Sure.**  **13 MR. COHEN: You could say either**  **14 I'll fix the coil or --**  **15 MEMBER WHITE: Or we'll --**  **16 MR. COHEN: -- you need to get a**  **17 whole new system.**  **18 MEMBER COHEN: Yes, we can do**  **19 this.**  **20 MR. COHEN: So do you go back and**  **21 so you guys label at that point or are you**  **22 guys waiting until after it gets installed?** 

### Page 223

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WHITE: It kind of depends.**  **2 If you have some time that you can prepare and**  **3 they're not, you know, I want my air**  **4 conditioning, well put together a,**  **5 essentially, a sales packet that has that**  **6 information in it. Other times they're like,**  **7 I need my air conditioning. Do whatever we**  **8 have to do, how much is that going to cost,**  **9 talk to you over the phone and let's get**  **10 going.**  **11 And, again, in my business, it's**  **12 relationships. So I'm not dealing with people**  **13 that don't know me most of the time that we**  **14 have previous business relationships, they**  **15 have multiple properties, whatever that might**  **16 be, so.**  **17 But if we're working with someone**  **18 that we don't know, because occasionally you**  **19 do, then I want to get them as much of that**  **20 information as possible. But sometimes**  **21 they're --- when can you have up here. So,**  **22 frankly, most of the time, that's not even on** 

### Page 224

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 their radar.**  **2 MR. COHEN: So they're not -- and**  **3 so if they need a new system --**  **4 MEMBER WHITE: I will be there**  **5 getting --**  **6 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **7 MR. COHEN: They're not getting**  **8 the energy guide label until after it's been**  **9 installed in their house?**  **10 MEMBER WHITE: Could be in some**  **11 cases. But, I mean, most of the time you try**  **12 to get, especially in the bigger**  **13 organizations, if you're cold calling and if**  **14 you're dealing with people you don't know, if**  **15 you're in a competitive situation where there**  **16 could be two or three or four others, then you**  **17 try to have as much of that, especially if you**  **18 have a salesman.**  **19 A salesman's got that literature**  **20 at his disposal, puts it in their packet,**  **21 here's what we do. This is, you know, first**  **22 choice, second choice, third choice, however** 

### Page 225

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you want to -- good, better, best -- however**  **2 you want to put it, and make that**  **3 presentation.**  **4 And, again, that's -- that depends**  **5 on the company. And there are some**  **6 organizations that it's one, two people and**  **7 they don't have a salesman and they're working**  **8 out of their truck with the literature they**  **9 have at hand as best as possible and, man, can**  **10 I borrow your computer. I can bring this up**  **11 and show you some literature and I'll print it**  **12 off. And there's --**  **13 MR. COHEN: So in that situation**  **14 is it typically -- you mentioned this earlier**  **15 but I guess I'm kind of curious about the --**  **16 what's usual and what's not. So is it the**  **17 case that, for the most part, the installer is**  **18 going to be typically using Lennox or Carrier**  **19 or -- they're not shifting back and forth?**  **20 I mean, or is it more the case**  **21 that they are more likely, the thing is just**  **22 economics, what the cost would be to --** 

### Page 226

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WHITE: Well, you'll have**  **2 dealerships where a contractor will be the**  **3 Lennox dealer or a York dealer or a Rheem --**  **4 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **5 MR. HURST: John Hurst, from**  **6 Lennox. I think the best way to think about**  **7 this, and this is how I used to describe it to**  **8 people that didn't understand this segment of**  **9 the industry, is consistently and consistent.**  **10 You cannot do a broad brush.**  **11 Because, to your point, you have the situation**  **12 where the technician works for the larger**  **13 company, sees what the billable rate is,**  **14 thinks I can do this, drags a buddy with him**  **15 and opens up shop. And that happens time and**  **16 time and time again.**  **17 And they may get lucky or maybe**  **18 they're good. And they do it for about 8 to**  **19 10 people. And then you have to start**  **20 developing an infrastructure for billing,**  **21 accounting. And then you grow into one of**  **22 these bigger marketing dealers if you can get** 

### Page 227

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 passed that hump. And a lot don't. Some do.**  **2 MEMBER WHITE: Or they spiral out**  **3 or control it.**  **4 MR. HURST: Yes. So --- I think**  **5 the hard part about answering any of your**  **6 questions, the answer is yes, no, maybe. And**  **7 all of them are correct answers.**  **8 MEMBER WHITE: My favorite answer**  **9 is it depends.**  **10 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **11 MR. COHEN: Well, we use that**  **12 though. You can't use that one.**  **13 MEMBER WHITE: Well, and to the**  **14 dealership question, other people feel I don't**  **15 want to be tied to this person that I have to.**  **16 Because what happens in July when the**  **17 wholesaler doesn't have any 3-tons left and**  **18 you've got people that need 3-ton units? And,**  **19 believe me, that happens.**  **20 MR. COHEN: So are you more likely**  **21 than in the installation to be looking to pair**  **22 things up? In other words, are you looking to** 

### Page 228

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 find the condensing unit and the coil and put**  **2 them together or are you going to the**  **3 manufacturer or through the distributor and**  **4 say this is what they've created as the sort**  **5 of paired set and that's what I'm going to**  **6 install to be 13, 14 --**  **7 MEMBER WHITE: Normally, in my**  **8 operation, I would go to my favorite**  **9 wholesaler and say I need this. It's an**  **10 upflow and I need a cased coil or an uncased**  **11 coil and I need a 3-ton.**  **12 And he would call back and say,**  **13 okay, we've got one of these and this coil**  **14 will go with it. You can use this coil and**  **15 this coil. This one's this dimension. This**  **16 one's that dimension. Which ones fit -- which**  **17 one fits your need, but they're both listed.**  **18 So I'm not going to AHRI's**  **19 website, pawing through. I'm not going to**  **20 DOE's 1.7 million choices and trying to figure**  **21 it out.**  **22 And a contractor relies very** 

### Page 229

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 heavily on their partners in the industry.**  **2 The wholesaler/contractor partnership is**  **3 really important because we work together --**  **4 and the manufacturer, to an extent. We're**  **5 more isolated from the manufacturer.**  **6 But I don't want to buy product**  **7 from a wholesaler and have to keep taking it**  **8 back. He doesn't want to see me coming in.**  **9 Oh, God, here comes Chuck. He's brought**  **10 another motor back because he doesn't know**  **11 what he's doing.**  **12 So I want a good relationship with**  **13 the guy and when something goes wrong we work**  **14 together, we figure out what happened, we work**  **15 to make it better. In my own business, my**  **16 personal philosophy, which came from my**  **17 father, and now my son has his, we're going to**  **18 fix the problem.**  **19 And I will fix the problem. And I**  **20 may not make any money on it but we're going**  **21 to take care of you. I may make a little more**  **22 money the next time, but I'm going to solve** 

### Page 230

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the problem. Not every business is like that**  **2 but that's, personally, that's how I operate.**  **3 MR. COHEN: So then the question**  **4 really is, for you, that you have to move to**  **5 distribute something. So how do they -- how**  **6 does the distributor, then -- do they go onto**  **7 the AHRI registry or how do they --**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **9 MEMBER WHITE: I don't want to**  **10 speak for them.**  **11 MR. COHEN: Is it by company or is**  **12 it by just generically?**  **13 MEMBER WHITE: Not to speak for**  **14 them, but I would assume if you use ABC**  **15 condensing units you know the ABC coils that**  **16 go with it. And if, you know, maybe I --**  **17 MEMBER RAWALD: Yes, we've also**  **18 Steve Porter here for the --**  **19 MEMBER WHITE: And maybe I'll have**  **20 an alternate. I might have an alternate XYZ**  **21 brand coil that I --**  **22 MEMBER PORTER: I can neither** 

### Page 231

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 confirm not deny.**  **2 MEMBER WHITE: I rely on that to**  **3 work together. And we produce the documents**  **4 that says it's okay.**  **5 MEMBER PORTER: Now we go to the**  **6 register. We look and match up charts from**  **7 the manufacturers and third party coil people**  **8 and usually provide a match-up chart that goes**  **9 along with the selection so they can make the**  **10 proper equipment choices.**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: One of the last**  **12 things I want is a technician having to circle**  **13 back to my office, sit down at a desk and**  **14 bring up the online Internet and be thinking**  **15 about Mrs. Smith's air conditioner, what all**  **16 the permutations. I want to see Mr. Jones'**  **17 air conditioner.**  **18 MR. SURRENA: There is --**  **19 everybody's really irked -- John Melchi -- and**  **20 I assume you'll also see it's illustrated in**  **21 person because --**  **22 MR. MELCHI: This is John Melchi.** 

### Page 232

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Sorry, and thank you, Don. And one of the**  **2 things we've heard from some of our members is**  **3 that it's not uncommon, and some can probably**  **4 confirm this but some contractors use multiple**  **5 distributors at a time, buying one piece from,**  **6 or one component particularly if they maybe**  **7 they are already a stocking contractor. So**  **8 it's not a onesy/twosey type of transaction**  **9 all the time.**  **10 MEMBER PORTER: This is Steve**  **11 Porter. So a contractor is going to use, and**  **12 many do view each whole session as a line of**  **13 credit, right. We provide credit. So they**  **14 may one or two or three that they shop at and**  **15 one may be their supplies. So he may buy his**  **16 coils at that one. And one may be his**  **17 equipment primary.**  **18 He may have TXVs and stock that we**  **19 don't know about or stocks every truck is**  **20 stocked usually to, you know, buy $10,000**  **21 worth of product on a truck. So that**  **22 inventory's out there.** 

### Page 233

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 We're not visible to that**  **2 inventory and we're not even always aware of**  **3 which are his second and third options in town**  **4 or even fourth options if the weather -- like**  **5 he says, if it gets really hot I think**  **6 everybody needs to understand that we call**  **7 them differently than what Chuck was talking**  **8 about.**  **9 We say planned purchases by**  **10 consumers, which is a really small segment of**  **11 the market. And then there's unplanned which**  **12 means it failed, it stopped working. I got to**  **13 pick up the phone and call somebody.**  **14 Those are the norm and those**  **15 happen with all different kinds of**  **16 relationships involved and who's at home at**  **17 the time. Your son who's out of school, and**  **18 he's going to be there when the contractor**  **19 shows up, right. So somebody's got to be in**  **20 the house usually, if they need to get in the**  **21 house.**  **22 And then we don't -- if** 

### Page 234

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 everybody's out in town, it's been a hot**  **2 summer, you know, that fourth or fifth option**  **3 may come into play to go get those parts to**  **4 make it all happen.**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: I want to add to**  **6 that. When you have the planned option I have**  **7 more flexibility. I can take some more quotes**  **8 and I can say, Steve, can you head over to my**  **9 office on Tuesday? And Steve's truck will**  **10 show up and there we go.**  **11 But while in the heat of it I'm**  **12 adding parts. You know which wholesaler's**  **13 most important to me? The one that's closest**  **14 to me right now because I want to get the part**  **15 and get back and get done.**  **16 And I might like Steve but he's**  **17 out by the airport and I'm on the other side**  **18 of town. Even if his part --**  **19 MEMBER PORTER: There's always a**  **20 taxi. We'll get a taxi there.**  **21 MEMBER WHITE: That's true.**  **22 That's great. Even if his part was --** 

### Page 235

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER PORTER: I don't want to**  **2 lose a sale.**  **3 MEMBER WHITE: I mean, time and**  **4 the technician is just critical.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Now we were talking**  **6 about -- John gives us the fourth.**  **7 MEMBER WHITE: Sorry.**  **8 MEMBER GIBBONS: Yes. Something**  **9 you didn't touch on, and I know you just**  **10 skipped it, is most professional contractors**  **11 like yourself and the organization that ACCA**  **12 folks represent hold permits. Now I know from**  **13 experience that not all contractors hold**  **14 permits.**  **15 Now the part is, which you alluded**  **16 to and I think what Steve said is in the heat**  **17 of the season fewer and fewer permits get**  **18 pulled. So to your question, Dan, about are**  **19 they getting the certificates, maybe in**  **20 non-emergency situations there's a higher**  **21 percentage of that.**  **22 In emergency situations they don't** 

### Page 236

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 care. Contractors just want to get one thing**  **2 done and move to the next sale. You know,**  **3 it's time to make money. And people skip**  **4 steps. And one of those steps may be**  **5 inadvertent by the municipality. I mean, some**  **6 places don't even care.**  **7 And other places, like Ray pointed**  **8 out, they want every certificate. So I think**  **9 it varies. And, I mean, maybe they can talk**  **10 about permitting and how that --**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, it does vary**  **12 and not every jurisdiction requires a permit.**  **13 There are places that do not have requirements**  **14 for heating licenses.**  **15 MEMBER GIBBONS: Oh, yes,**  **16 licenses. I mean --**  **17 MEMBER WHITE: In Indiana it's not**  **18 a statewide license. And it's a contractor's**  **19 license. It's not a technician. So the**  **20 contractor's responsible for the people**  **21 working for him. And you get one in the city**  **22 of South Bend, the city of Mishawaka, the** 

### Page 237

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 county, the next county, the next town.**  **2 So if I'm working in much of an**  **3 area I've got a bunch of licenses. But**  **4 permits for most of the jurisdictions are not**  **5 hard. Fill it out, cash a check, mail it in,**  **6 you're done.**  **7 We have one town that will not**  **8 take it in the mail because they can't be sure**  **9 it was your signature because they didn't see**  **10 you sign it. So you have to show up at their**  **11 office in person.**  **12 MEMBER GIBBONS: Have it notarized**  **13 then.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: So we have Johanna**  **15 and both -- and so they've been waiting for a**  **16 while. So we'll hear Johanna, first and then**  **17 --**  **18 MS. HARIHANAN: Thanks. This is**  **19 Johanna Harihanan, DOE. This is completely**  **20 obscure. What percentage of your business is**  **21 actually just replacing parts of the**  **22 equipment? And out of those which parts are** 

### Page 238

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the most common that you replace?**  **2 MEMBER WHITE: Well --**  **3 MR. RAWALD: I want all the people**  **4 to answer that question because --**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: -- my business is**  **6 -- I don't know that I would be**  **7 representational and businesses are going to**  **8 be different. But it's a hard question to**  **9 answer because I don't just do air**  **10 conditioning. So I have lots of other things**  **11 that go on in my business.**  **12 But in air conditioning work I**  **13 would say probably 60 to 70 percent is parts**  **14 replacement. That's aside from a compressor**  **15 which means service, cleaning, that kind of**  **16 stuff, big amount of time and motors,**  **17 contractors, capacitors. Those are kind of**  **18 the big ones.**  **19 And really equipment has gotten**  **20 much more reliable. So we don't have to sell**  **21 it quite as often, especially if do some**  **22 routine service. So I would say of the air** 

### Page 239

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 conditioning end of things the majority of it**  **2 is parts replacement in my business.**  **3 Other contractors, too, probably**  **4 have a different mix. And it really depends.**  **5 Again, my business is not heavy into the**  **6 residential market. We do residential work**  **7 but it's not our target market. So we're not**  **8 out, we're not scheduling five houses a day.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: It is all right,**  **10 Mike.**  **11 MR. SURRENA: Don.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Don.**  **13 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena, NAHB.**  **14 MR. RAWALD: Don Surrena.**  **15 MR. SURRENA: Some of your smaller**  **16 contractors, they get their information from**  **17 their distributor as to which coil they need.**  **18 That's what they use for their reference. As**  **19 for, I've got a couple, back over here, of**  **20 answers.**  **21 And as far as permitting, goes I**  **22 was a permit official for 20 years before I** 

### Page 240

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 went with NAHB. And you can replace equipment**  **2 under emergency conditions, late at night or**  **3 whatever, and then get the permit within so**  **4 many hours.**  **5 Most communities who enforce the**  **6 mechanical code over the residential code**  **7 allow that. It's, and as you'd said, some**  **8 communities, they've got no clue that you were**  **9 even in town.**  **10 It's harder now for builders to**  **11 get their subcontractors back since 2008.**  **12 Guys who had been in the business have just**  **13 stopped. They just, they've gotten different**  **14 occupations now.**  **15 So we're finding it a difficulty**  **16 to get the skilled people out to the jobs so**  **17 that the guy with the truck, who works for the**  **18 fire department during the day, he gets in**  **19 there now.**  **20 But that's the reality of we've**  **21 lost the labor force. And it's making it more**  **22 difficult to keep track of records and who has** 

### Page 241

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it and who hasn't and who's done what and who**  **2 hasn't.**  **3 It is something that we're facing**  **4 today at NAHB as a major problem, getting our**  **5 builders back to work by getting their subs**  **6 back. And HVAC is one of the problem areas**  **7 that we have.**  **8 MEMBER WHITE: And technicians.**  **9 MR. SURRENA: Exactly.**  **10 MEMBER WHITE: I can't make a HVAC**  **11 technician in a week. I can't make him in a**  **12 month. I've got to make -- I can't make a**  **13 good one in a year. I mean, you -- it's a**  **14 highly complex, with lots of moving parts and**  **15 pieces and complex things.**  **16 And through the downturn my**  **17 business shrank significantly, through the**  **18 downturn. Significantly. And the two best**  **19 guys I had, I did everything possible to make**  **20 sure I didn't lose them. And I didn't lose**  **21 them. But they wouldn't be back and to**  **22 replace them would be near impossible.** 

### Page 242

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. SURRENA: It'd take you years.**  **2 MEMBER WHITE: Yes. It takes a**  **3 long time. And the guys that are left are not**  **4 out looking for jobs. The guys that walk in**  **5 and tell you they know everything about air**  **6 conditioning and they're here to save you,**  **7 glad you came in, there's the door.**  **8 And there are a few technicians**  **9 that are -- because you look for the diamonds**  **10 in the rough. But, along, one of the things**  **11 that one of the sides here, it is an evolving**  **12 field. It's becoming more complicated. It is**  **13 becoming more technical. Electronics and**  **14 electronic controllers, electronic**  **15 communicated thermostats, it is becoming a**  **16 more challenging field, just interesting some**  **17 people.**  **18 But to reach out for the young**  **19 people today and pull them in, it's just not**  **20 that high profile prestigious you're going to**  **21 be an air conditioner man. Some of them, I'll**  **22 teach you everything you know. They all want** 

### Page 243

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to be rocket scientists and things like that.**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Elizabeth's had her**  **3 hand up for a while.**  **4 MEMBER NOLL: I have a question.**  **5 And I think I know the answer to it but I'm**  **6 going to ask it anyways. You mentioned that**  **7 you call up your wholesaler and ask him, this**  **8 is my scenario, give me compliant product**  **9 basically or give me my options.**  **10 MEMBER WHITE: Mm-hmm.**  **11 MEMBER NOLL: Is that by and large**  **12 what contractor do? Or is it --**  **13 MEMBER HOURAHAN: This is Glenn**  **14 Hourahan. Contractors primarily sell what the**  **15 distributor has. Contractors are not**  **16 stocking. And so if the distributor doesn't**  **17 have it or recommend it he doesn't have it**  **18 available, by and large, for him to sell to**  **19 his customer unless it's a planned replacement**  **20 for some time in the future.**  **21 And then you can place any order**  **22 you want through the distributor if you go** 

### Page 244

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 through the factory.**  **2 MEMBER NOLL: That might not be**  **3 what I asked. I was saying do you rely on the**  **4 distributor to give you your options of what**  **5 would qualify or are you calling them up**  **6 saying well, I want X, Y or Z piece?**  **7 MEMBER HOURAHAN: It depends.**  **8 MEMBER WHITE: It goes both ways.**  **9 MEMBER NOLL: I knew that was an**  **10 answer.**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: Well, it goes both**  **12 ways.**  **13 MEMBER NOLL: Because I mean, I'm**  **14 thinking --**  **15 MEMBER WHITE: Let's look at it**  **16 this way. I'm the guy there that saw the**  **17 house and I'm going to do a load calculation.**  **18 So from that I have that information and I'm**  **19 going to say, Steve, I got a house, I need**  **20 3-ton. It's an upflow, what do you got?**  **21 He's going to look in his computer**  **22 and he's going to say, well, I've got one of** 

### Page 245

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 these in stock and one of these in stock, and**  **2 one of these in stock in 13. I've got this in**  **3 14. I've got this in 16. And here's your**  **4 package for this, your hardware.**  **5 So it all amounts to this, this.**  **6 Okay, and it's here. If you want it today you**  **7 can have it today. Great. I'll put my price**  **8 together, talk to the customer.**  **9 I might, in some instances, in a**  **10 bigger project -- we had a project that was**  **11 120 apartments. Thank God we didn't get it.**  **12 But, okay, now we have an engineering**  **13 background. So I did more of the legwork on**  **14 that because I wanted to be able to go -- if**  **15 was enough numbers that I could go to.**  **16 And, personally, I don't think**  **17 it's fair to go to you guys and say do all**  **18 this design work three times. Only one of you**  **19 is going to get it.**  **20 So in some instances I will do**  **21 that. But most of the time in the kind of**  **22 garden variety operation, unless I'm a big** 

### Page 246

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 operation, if I'm the guy with 50 trucks, then**  **2 I probably am buying inventory.**  **3 I probably have a certain number**  **4 of units in the warehouse so we're not going**  **5 to supply houses all the time picking stuff**  **6 up. But we can load the truck and they're**  **7 ready to go the next day. But most**  **8 contractors are not that big operation.**  **9 MEMBER NOLL: Oh, that's**  **10 interesting.**  **11 MR. RAWALD: John Hurst?**  **12 MR. HURST: John Hurst from**  **13 Lennox. I think the best way to think about**  **14 it is if you're a consumer you go to Home**  **15 Depot. I need a box of nails. I go to where**  **16 the nails are, I go get a box, I scan it and**  **17 I walk out. I knew what I needed.**  **18 And then sometimes, in some cases,**  **19 you say I need a whatever, you buy it and you**  **20 leave. You don't need a consult. You don't**  **21 need to know if it's compliant or if it passes**  **22 a regulation.** 

### Page 247

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Sometimes you go in for kitchen**  **2 cabinets, carpet. You need a consult. You**  **3 need options. I think it's the same way. We**  **4 have retail locations. Most of us have retail**  **5 locations. And you get contractors in that**  **6 want something very specific, and then**  **7 sometimes they need help with configuring the**  **8 job.**  **9 As an example, my old home in**  **10 Atlanta had a GE furnace, a Rheem air**  **11 conditioner, a Goodman furnace and a Carrier**  **12 air conditioner. How that combination was**  **13 created, I have no idea. And what coils they**  **14 were matched with, no clue.**  **15 But I don't think that's uncommon.**  **16 You probably see mix-matched systems and they**  **17 range from 1980 to late 90's. So that's kind**  **18 of how it happens.**  **19 MEMBER NOLL: But also I'm hearing**  **20 though is that there's a significant dialogue**  **21 that's going on between the contractor and**  **22 distributor as to -- the contractor in the** 

### Page 248

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 field -- as to what I have and the distributor**  **2 saying this will --**  **3 MR. HURST: Maybe.**  **4 MEMBER NOLL: -- let you, this**  **5 will work with what you need.**  **6 MR. HURST: Maybe, maybe not.**  **7 MEMBER NOLL: Maybe not?**  **8 MR. HURST: I'm sure --**  **9 MR. MELCHI: This is John Melchi**  **10 from HARDI. It's my understanding that, yes,**  **11 there's a conversation oftentimes going on.**  **12 But it's very selective. The information that**  **13 Chuck is going to share with his wholesaler is**  **14 going to be very selective, correct?**  **15 MEMBER WHITE: Oh, sure.**  **16 MR. MELCHI: You're not going to**  **17 share.**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: Right.**  **19 MR. MELCHI: So --**  **20 MEMBER WHITE: I'm looking for a**  **21 3-ton system and I give -- no offense. We**  **22 have a relationship and I love my wholesalers.** 

### Page 249

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But I'm not so sure about Bob out of a truck**  **2 dock that he doesn't know somebody in another**  **3 outfit.**  **4 I mean, we're all contractors we**  **5 all know each other but we all hate each other**  **6 too. And my customers are my customers and I**  **7 don't want anybody to have an avenue to get to**  **8 them with another price or another story or**  **9 steal my customers.**  **10 So I'm -- I give them information**  **11 but I try to give them just what they need,**  **12 and really, nothing more. And I don't like,**  **13 personally, I don't really like everything**  **14 that's little job sets.**  **15 In other words, it's my office and**  **16 I'll take care of it. There's several reasons**  **17 for that. But that also secures my job sites.**  **18 My client base is secure. And I probably do**  **19 have wholesalers that I'm okay with. It was**  **20 a relationship. In fact, I do have one that**  **21 I'd give him the keys to my house.**  **22 MR. HURST: But you also said** 

### Page 250

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 wholesalers. Plural.**  **2 MEMBER WHITE: Sure.**  **3 MR. HURST: It's John Hurst. I**  **4 think that's important also.**  **5 MEMBER WHITE: Sure.**  **6 MR. HURST: And you're not unusual**  **7 in the industry?**  **8 MEMBER WHITE: Oh, no. No. Most**  **9 of the contractors are going to have --**  **10 they're going to have their number one guy.**  **11 But it's not always the number one guy.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: Now George has been**  **13 waiting for a while.**  **14 MEMBER WHITE: I think Charlie's**  **15 had his hand up also, so.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Oh, I'm sorry.**  **17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes, I just wanted**  **18 to make a couple points on some of the**  **19 questions that have been posed from an Agency**  **20 perspective.**  **21 On record-keeping, we've talked to**  **22 our members. We've been talking to them since** 

### Page 251

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 2011 about what was in the framework document.**  **2 They all keep records. I don't know**  **3 percentage but a fair number of them keep**  **4 paper records only.**  **5 Members have a database. The**  **6 database is not typically searchable. So they**  **7 may enter things in the computer but if**  **8 someone said to you where is Serial Number**  **9 123XYZ they couldn't answer that.**  **10 So I just wanted to make sure that**  **11 you understand -- and this is from information**  **12 from -- I mean, I've been doing a presentation**  **13 on the Hustings for years by this. And I**  **14 always say how many of you keep records? All**  **15 hands go up.**  **16 And now all those who keep, you**  **17 know, records, some hands go down. How many**  **18 can search by serial number or whatever, more**  **19 hands come down. So that's just something I**  **20 think you need to understand.**  **21 MR. EISNER: I know. Do you think**  **22 it's changing, this technology?** 

### Page 252

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. MCCRUDDEN: It's changing but,**  **2 you know, as Chuck said, it's the cost of**  **3 doing business. A computer database is**  **4 expensive. There's a lot of vendors out there**  **5 but it's, if you've been getting away without**  **6 it, you'll be doing it yourself.**  **7 On the Energy guide label how, you**  **8 know, is it shown now? It's not a priority to**  **9 show right now. Right now you only have to**  **10 show the information contained on the energy**  **11 guide label, and that's in the manufacturer's**  **12 stuff. The requirement to show them the**  **13 actual energy guide label isn't until January**  **14 1, 2015.**  **15 Warranty cards. There was a**  **16 question on warranty cards. We have a**  **17 substantial number of members who fill out the**  **18 warranty cards with their business address.**  **19 They don't want to show that information to**  **20 the manufacturers because, not pointing any**  **21 fingers, some manufacturers have a tendency to**  **22 share that information with a preferred** 

### Page 253

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 dealer.**  **2 And a lot of the contractors feel**  **3 that their customers are being poached by**  **4 someone who has a better relationship with**  **5 their man -- oh, yes. So we have some big**  **6 ones who fill out the warranty card with their**  **7 business address.**  **8 Now they -- with internal they can**  **9 figure out what the warranty situation is.**  **10 But that is a situation within the industry**  **11 where there is some distrust. But that's**  **12 internal to the industry and that, I don't**  **13 think, in terms of policy it doesn't really**  **14 come up.**  **15 MEMBER WHITE: And that could just**  **16 be a perception that you --**  **17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: No, it's a**  **18 substantial number of contractors.**  **19 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, from what I**  **20 understand -- a perception.**  **21 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. On permits,**  **22 frequency of permits being pulled, it's the** 

### Page 254

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 enforcement that's sometimes lacking. So**  **2 permits are always required. Permits are**  **3 always required on a replacement part.**  **4 Permits aren't always enforced so**  **5 that's an issue. I just want to make sure**  **6 it's out there. I thought the assignment for**  **7 us was also to look at what do we want, what**  **8 did ACCA want.**  **9 And I went back and I looked at**  **10 our comments to the NOPR in 2011. And they --**  **11 and what we said then really hasn't changed.**  **12 Simplicity, limited burdens on the contractors**  **13 because of all this stuff I just mentioned,**  **14 using the homeowner as a double check.**  **15 And that's where the map comes in,**  **16 the FCC label. You know, having that**  **17 homeowner the ability to sort of figure out,**  **18 hey, this isn't right for that unscrupulous**  **19 contractor who's out there.**  **20 The database, consumers are a lot**  **21 more savvy, so that's a way to achieve a**  **22 practical and enforceable proposal that we've** 

### Page 255

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 put together.**  **2 We would love to see every job**  **3 require our QI standard. I don't think we**  **4 would get that through but that would**  **5 guarantee that every job that has a 13-SEER**  **6 condenser purchased for it would achieve**  **7 13-SEER, every 14-SEER would be 14-SEER.**  **8 Because we know that this**  **9 equipment out of the box would not properly**  **10 size or install. It could lose 30 percent of**  **11 that rating when installed.**  **12 MR. RAWALD: I think that goes to**  **13 the point that Carolyn made before about,**  **14 earlier about that. So you mentioned your QI?**  **15 MEMBER NOLL: Quality**  **16 Installation.**  **17 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So it's -- well,**  **18 the official title is ACCA -- ACCA, ansi --**  **19 MEMBER HOURAHAN: It's an Ansi**  **20 standard so the official tile is Ansi/ACCA 5,**  **21 numerical 5, QI, and hyphen 2010. So it's the**  **22 HVAC Quality Installation standard. And it's** 

### Page 256

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 developed through an open consensus process.**  **2 3**  **The first standard came out in 4**  **2007 and was updated in 2010. And now it's in 5**  **the process of a coalition of stakeholders 6**  **reviewing it for potential changes for 2015. 7**  **MR. RAWALD: So that's a way of, a 8**  **method, Doug, of making sure that the 9**  **as-installed meets what was represented on the 10**  **packaging? 11**  **MR. MCCRUDDEN: Right. 12**  **MEMBER WHITE: Correct. 13**  **MR. MCCRUDDEN: But there's no 14**  **widget that you can plug in -- 15**  **MR. RAWALD: Right. 16**  **MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- and once the 17**  **installation is done it tells you a number. 18**  **If we had that work would be simple. 19**  **MR. RAWALD: It would be, problem 20**  **would be solved. 21**  **MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes. 22**  **MR. RAWALD: It's that simple.**

### Page 257

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Okay. And then, Jordan, did you have a**  **2 comment or did you just want to punch Charlie**  **3 to the floor?**  **4 MEMBER DORIA: Yes, no, no. One**  **5 thing that I just wanted to just make sure**  **6 we're very, very clear on, to Elizabeth's**  **7 point of, you know, yesterday there was this**  **8 dialogue between the contractor and the**  **9 distributor. But it's never about give me a**  **10 compliant part. It's about finding something**  **11 that fits the need.**  **12 Whether it complies is a given,**  **13 right? Now that has long been the case. So**  **14 when I heard you say that I just wanted to**  **15 make absolutely sure that everybody's aware**  **16 that to the extent there's a dialogue it's**  **17 about finding the right product. Compliance**  **18 is simply not a factor.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Okay.**  **20 MEMBER NOLL: Not now. Right now?**  **21 MEMBER DORIA: Correct. And I**  **22 think, as Steve Porter tells our supplier, I** 

### Page 258

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 think they're the ones who are at the jobs**  **2 troubleshooting the job. You know, we're not**  **3 at the job troubleshooting the job.**  **4 They're coming back for the**  **5 request for maybe further information or**  **6 research on product. But they're the ones**  **7 closest to the job.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Okay. Ray, do you**  **9 have one?**  **10 MEMBER ELLIS: Just a quick part.**  **11 I think it's pretty evident from Chuck's**  **12 presentation and it's much similar in the**  **13 utility industry where you have giant IOUs and**  **14 real small cooperatives.**  **15 One size will not fit all. And so**  **16 when we look at this regulation and what we're**  **17 going to recommend you're going to have to**  **18 have some leniency or caveats in there for**  **19 small contractors and small distributors and**  **20 such because there is a major difference in**  **21 how they can do business, mainly because of**  **22 cost.** 

### Page 259

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Okay. One of the**  **2 questions we had for folks is the interaction**  **3 sales and how that impacts installers and**  **4 contractors. Because I don't have any**  **5 experience with that at all. So how is that**  **6 playing out with you folks? Here's Charlie**  **7 McCrudden.**  **8 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So -- oh, Charlie**  **9 McCrudden with ACCA. We were, I think we were**  **10 at one of the meetings, a couple meetings**  **11 before. And then everyone had their computer**  **12 and a lot of people went on Craigslist and**  **13 eBay and found equipment online.**  **14 It happens. I've had contractors**  **15 tell me, because I've asked this question,**  **16 that they've had customers say, hey, I got**  **17 this condenser unit on eBay, what would you**  **18 charge to install?**  **19 Most of our members will say,**  **20 sorry. I mean, to them that would be like**  **21 saying, calling your dentist and saying, hey,**  **22 I bought some amalgam online, you know, I need** 

### Page 260

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a filling. What would you charge to install**  **2 that?**  **3 Most -- but it's out there. It**  **4 happens. I don't want to overstate the**  **5 problem but it is, it's a dirty little secret.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Is it common, in**  **7 other words, when you tell them you've looked**  **8 at their project and you would recommend the**  **9 following piece of equipment and then they**  **10 call you back the next day and they say I**  **11 checked online?**  **12 MR. MCCRUDDY: Sure. Of course.**  **13 Sure it does. I don't have numbers on how**  **14 prevalent that is.**  **15 MEMBER WHITE: Yes, but -- it's**  **16 Chuck White -- condensing units probably are**  **17 not the biggest. But other parts, coils,**  **18 motors, things, other components, people will**  **19 -- you'll show up and I got this, I need this**  **20 air conditioner.**  **21 Okay well, it's going to be --**  **22 well, I got it in the garage and they open the** 

### Page 261

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 garage door and there it is. They've already**  **2 bought it. There's no warranty on it on**  **3 Internet sales. And, as a contractor, I don't**  **4 know how you sized it. I don't know if it's**  **5 right for you and I'll walk away from it.**  **6 But that -- I've got to do that**  **7 with more arms. It isn't just this**  **8 discussion. It's gotten so quotes are**  **9 nebulous. That air conditioner may be the**  **10 brand for your house at such and such, maybe**  **11 the SEER level, but no sizing, no model**  **12 numbers, no.**  **13 Because you're going to come back**  **14 to talk about it later and they're going to**  **15 say well I found that model online. It's X**  **16 dollars and, you know, that's -- then the**  **17 battle starts.**  **18 And occasionally that model will**  **19 be sitting in the garage because you can buy**  **20 them. And when you're in the southwest I**  **21 don't know how you're going to stop somebody**  **22 from shipping something from Butte, Montana** 

### Page 262

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 down to Clearwater, Florida. But it's going**  **2 to happen.**  **3 MR. RAWALD: You know you will.**  **4 MEMBER WHITE: No, I won't.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Oh, it's my way of**  **6 testing you.**  **7 MEMBER WHITE: Yes.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Karen, you had a**  **9 follow-up?**  **10 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes, so this is**  **11 Karen with Rheem. Just a couple other things.**  **12 I have a couple really good friends who are**  **13 contractors and one of them used to be a boss**  **14 of mine at Rheem.**  **15 And so I talked with him about**  **16 this issue a lot and what's he think he's**  **17 going to do. And just a couple points he made**  **18 is, you know, he can buy two condensing units,**  **19 two coils exactly alike, same model number,**  **20 same manufacturer.**  **21 But his price is rarely the same**  **22 job to job because so much of that price is** 

### Page 263

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 dependent upon labor. And also that most **2 homeowners -- well, he said all homeowners, 3 actually, were his words -- consider 13-SEER**  **4 high efficiency because it's so much more 5 efficient than what they have in their home.**  **6 And I asked him, both of these 7 people, how they thought out -- one is a very**  **8 organized guy and he's got spreadsheets. The 9 other guy, very bright. Very bright young**  **10 man, but it's just he and his wife. And he 11 files with a manilla folder, last name first,**  **12 and sticks it in a filing cabinet, paperwork. 13 He's a one-man guy. His wife**  **14 helps him out when she can. And they have a 15 couple kids. But that's his whole filing**  **16 system. He said I can't go in and pull based 17 upon what I've installed. I can only go and**  **18 pull my job. 19 And, he says, mine's, you know,**  **20 I'm a small guy. I can't invest in a computer 21 system. So he has filing cabinets and that's**  **22 how he files. Now, if he grows and gets to**

### Page 264

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the point where he can hire a couple**  **2 technicians, which he's trying to do, but he**  **3 doesn't -- he can't afford that yet.**  **4 So he cannot tell you probably his**  **5 wholesaler could maybe, but he uses a couple,**  **6 could more likely tell him what he's**  **7 installed, that he can't unless he goes and**  **8 pulls every one out of the folder and goes**  **9 through the paperwork.**  **10 So just a couple things I wanted**  **11 to add to the conversation about the realities**  **12 of the market.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Karen, that raises a**  **14 question for me. Do you a sense of how long**  **15 he maintains those folders? And I guess**  **16 Charlie and Glenn just --**  **17 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes it's like it's**  **18 our business, but yes, I doubt it. It's a big**  **19 question. I can ask him and I don't doubt**  **20 there's this annual pulling process that**  **21 happens.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: Well, essentially, at** 

### Page 265

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 some point, the files are going to outlive the**  **2 size of his house, right, so they're going to**  **3 have to be moved.**  **4 MS. MEYERS: Right, right. This**  **5 is a small guy though so I don't know. It's**  **6 a good question.**  **7 MR. ROCKY: So Bryan Rocky. And**  **8 my question, and we all have our own opinions**  **9 but I'd like maybe Glenn and Chuck to talk**  **10 about their view of the contractor turnover**  **11 these days.**  **12 So many contractors come in every**  **13 year, so many go out of business. And my**  **14 perspective is mine, and I'm not going to put**  **15 that on the group. But I'd like to hear from**  **16 the guys that are doing program and contract**  **17 organizations talk about that.**  **18 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Well, Chuck made**  **19 -- this is Glenn Hourahan, ACCA. Chuck made**  **20 a reference about the shortage we have in our**  **21 industry, and that's true. And it is dire.**  **22 But to a certain extent, and he** 

### Page 266

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 also mentioned as well, part of the problem is**  **2 that we don't so much have a shortage of**  **3 technicians as we have excess of business**  **4 owners.**  **5 And what happens is is that you**  **6 may have a smart tech who thinks he's smarter**  **7 than his boss. And he sees he's making 25**  **8 bucks an hour and the boss is charging out**  **9 whatever it is, a hundred and a quarter an**  **10 hour. He says, I can do the same thing myself**  **11 with my own truck.**  **12 And what happens is he does that.**  **13 He goes out, has a magnetic sign, and he**  **14 starts to working for himself. He might**  **15 steal one or two other guys to go with him.**  **16 Now he's started his own business.**  **17 He doesn't know how to run that**  **18 business as a business. So he doesn't know**  **19 about record keeping. He doesn't know how to**  **20 properly price the job, to amortize the cost**  **21 of overhead for his truck, his tools, his**  **22 training and everything else that needs to be** 

### Page 267

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 done.**  **2 And so what happens is, it's not**  **3 unsurprising, that in about two, three, four**  **4 years' time he's out of business because he**  **5 just physically ran through all his cash. And**  **6 now he's working for someone else again,**  **7 wondering what happened, I thought I'd make a**  **8 good living.**  **9 So there is a high turnover. When**  **10 you look at the -- you almost do the split.**  **11 You know, if you look at our membership, what**  **12 is it? Average ten years or more for our**  **13 members?**  **14 So it's roughly ten years or more**  **15 for how long our members, the ACCA members**  **16 have been in business. And if you can make it**  **17 to five years, you're doing something right.**  **18 But you're in jeopardy most every year until**  **19 the five years. You're still in jeopardy**  **20 afterwards but at least, by the five-year**  **21 period you've figured out what it takes to be**  **22 able to properly price a job.** 

### Page 268

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 And, you notice, I didn't talk**  **2 anything about properly do a job. With some**  **3 of those technicians they know what they're**  **4 doing. What I'm talking about the part of can**  **5 continue to run it as a business.**  **6 And that's why there's a high**  **7 turnover. And the infrastructure, I think**  **8 it's the SIC code's almost 200,000 for**  **9 contractors. 200,000 businesses in the United**  **10 States.**  **11 MEMBER WHITE: It's plumbing too.**  **12 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Excuse me?**  **13 MEMBER WHITE: It's plumbing too.**  **14 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Yes, and**  **15 plumbing. But that's just because**  **16 differentiate. We hazard a guess that we**  **17 think professional contractors is in the order**  **18 of about 40,000 to 60,000.**  **19 Professional being they have**  **20 licenses, they have business trucks, that**  **21 they've been in business for a year or two and**  **22 they're likely to be in business for a year or** 

### Page 269

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 two.**  **2 So that' 40 to 60 but there's**  **3 anywhere, at least 100 maybe up to 200,000**  **4 contractors out there because this is the guy**  **5 who used to work for a boss and put a shingle**  **6 out and he's had a business in a second year**  **7 and no one will know for another year or two**  **8 he's pulling out of business and they lead to**  **9 the accounts.**  **10 MEMBER SACHS: I have some data.**  **11 This is Harvey. And a couple of decades ago,**  **12 it's long enough ago that there's not any**  **13 confidentiality associated with, I actually**  **14 commissioned a survey of contractors through**  **15 Penton which has a large group of controlled**  **16 circulation magazines available to anybody who**  **17 will halfway show he's actually in the**  **18 business.**  **19 But mainly that's turnover 25**  **20 percent a year. Does that scare you?**  **21 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So this is**  **22 Gary. I'd like to make an observation about** 

### Page 270

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Internet sales. I can see how you might well**  **2 buy a motor or relay, maybe some control**  **3 component over the Internet. But if you're**  **4 going to buy a whole condensing unit or a dry**  **5 unit as you folks call it, there are very few**  **6 individuals that can install that themselves.**  **7 You have to connect the**  **8 refrigerant lines, pump down the system,**  **9 charge it. It takes a professional contractor**  **10 to do that. And professional contractors,**  **11 then, know where the installed that equipment.**  **12 MR. HURST: John Hurst. Well, it**  **13 takes a professional contractor to do right.**  **14 There are plenty of unprofessional, unlicensed**  **15 that'll do it on a phonecall and a white bash.**  **16 And I'm not saying it's pervasive.**  **17 I'm not saying it's a big chunk of the**  **18 industry. But I'd be willing to bet anybody**  **19 in this room that I can go on the Internet**  **20 right now, have a condensing unit dropped off**  **21 in my driveway and have it installed by this**  **22 weekend. And it's usually done right.** 

### Page 271

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Wow. Well that**  **2 could -- that comes as a surprise to me**  **3 because it would -- the rest would be a**  **4 rabbit, so it's no surprise to hear.**  **5 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **6 MR. HURST: Yes, I could find the**  **7 right one and it terrifies me. But it's a**  **8 reality.**  **9 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes, but I**  **10 would think that I would have to call around**  **11 to find somebody willing to do that. Yes, I**  **12 probably could find someone.**  **13 MEMBER CLARK: The Web sites will**  **14 lead you, in many cases, to --**  **15 MR. RAWALD: That's Gary, right?**  **16 MEMBER CLARK: -- an agreeable**  **17 contractor. So it's not like you have to go**  **18 find somebody. You just say I'm in this zip**  **19 code, here's two or three guys. Call two or**  **20 three guys. It's that simple.**  **21 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena. All**  **22 you have to do is know somebody down the** 

### Page 272

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 street that works for an air conditioning**  **2 company and is willing to do it in the**  **3 evening. You've got good chances that will**  **4 happen.**  **5 MEMBER CLARK: Sure.**  **6 MR. SURRENA: Guys like to**  **7 moonlight. They think their boss is making**  **8 all the money. And they think they can make**  **9 it that evening.**  **10 MEMBER CLARK: No, he can use his**  **11 boss' truck and his boss' parts --**  **12 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay, so this**  **13 is Gary again. Then let me carry my question**  **14 or thinking one step further. All right, so**  **15 there are these individuals around that will**  **16 install equipment that I buy over the**  **17 Internet.**  **18 They might equally well go down to**  **19 the wholesaler and buy the condensing unit and**  **20 put it in for me. I mean, that's the**  **21 contractor individual that we're going to have**  **22 trouble, I think, working with trying to** 

### Page 273

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 achieve compliance with this regulation.**  **2 Because they're disinclined,**  **3 perhaps, to keep records reported or do you**  **4 things strictly, according to the book. On**  **5 the other hand, if there is some mechanism**  **6 related to the sale of that product to them**  **7 from the wholesaler or Internet seller or**  **8 whomever that obliges them to report**  **9 information that might be different.**  **10 So the case that comes to mind is**  **11 when I go to the drugstore and buy Sudafed.**  **12 They want to know who I am. And I have to**  **13 tell them. Otherwise, I don't walk away with**  **14 the Sudafed. Yes?**  **15 MR. HURST: John Hurst with**  **16 Lennox. Let me use a, maybe a controversial**  **17 analogy with gun control laws that have been**  **18 passed that you're only supposed to have a**  **19 certain amount of bullets in a magazine.**  **20 I own a rifle. I will comply with**  **21 the law because I'm a law abiding citizen. I**  **22 can't see a gang-banger on the side of the** 

### Page 274

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 street saying six, seven, eight, nine, I got **2 to stop at ten because it's the law, when I'm 3 going to go out and do my drive-by shooting.**  **4 So the analogy is for people that 5 don't cheat aren't going to cheat. And it's**  **6 not Charlie's membership, right, it's we can 7 -- you know, we talked about permitting.**  **8 And if you look at permitting 9 today, we talked about carrots and sticks.**  **10 Well, if I want to abide by the law I've got 11 to do down to the courthouse, stand in line,**  **12 pay the fee, pay the technician that's 13 standing in the line to pay the fee while the**  **14 majority of my competitors are going out and 15 doing it without a permit and not incurring**  **16 the cost. And so -- 17 MR. CLARK: Well, that's what**  **18 makes it so hard. We can lay on all these 19 requirements for the people who are going to**  **20 abide by the law anyway. There's no doubt 21 that you're going to do what's right. You're**  **22 going to follow the right license and you**

### Page 275

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 bought a plane ticket to sit here. So I know**  **2 you're doing the right thing.**  **3 MR. HURST: I'm loving every**  **4 minute of it.**  **5 MR. CLARK: So --**  **6 MEMBER PORTER: Steve Porter. I**  **7 agree. I mean, when you talk about going to**  **8 that exception, the majority of the jobs are**  **9 done by good contractors. Let's not design**  **10 something for the exception.**  **11 As Chuck said, you're never going**  **12 to clean it up. There's not -- it's out**  **13 there. It's always going to be out there**  **14 unless the law is totally changed. So let's**  **15 not design to the exception.**  **16 We've got a great role here. I**  **17 mean, everybody just wants to know how are we**  **18 supposed to do it. Let's just explain how**  **19 you're supposed to do it and move forward.**  **20 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Okay, so this**  **21 is Gary again. And I've got some experience**  **22 in this area with the California swimming pool** 

### Page 276

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 pump regulations which are**  **2 application-specific and really is the**  **3 contractor that knows whether or not the**  **4 California regulations have been complied with**  **5 or not.**  **6 And I think, again, regulations**  **7 are perhaps a bad analogy.**  **8 MEMBER CLARK: As I said they**  **9 were.**  **10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: The only reason**  **11 I suggest we try and be comprehensive and deep**  **12 reaching with this is to protect the good**  **13 contractors that are law abiding.**  **14 Because the biggest complaint of**  **15 the pool contractors in California that abide**  **16 by the regulations are those many other**  **17 contractors that don't. So as a spokesperson**  **18 for the utilities, yes, I would agree with**  **19 you.**  **20 I don't think, necessarily, we**  **21 have to be all completely inclusive. On the**  **22 other hand, with respect and consideration for** 

### Page 277

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the honest contractors, I think we have to**  **2 hear from them about how deep they want to go**  **3 with this regulation so they're not subject to**  **4 unfair competition and uneven playing field.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Right. This is Doug.**  **6 So as I'm listening to this, what I'm hearing**  **7 is the struggle is that we don't want to**  **8 create kind of this black market over in the**  **9 center for people to operate outside of the**  **10 radar because they want to avoid the expense**  **11 of regulation.**  **12 But we do want the enforcement**  **13 program to operate so that it minimizes the**  **14 number of people that are going to blow off**  **15 the law. And so we've got to balance this and**  **16 when we do, and it's very difficult, from**  **17 where I sit here in Washington, D.C. to figure**  **18 out what the right balance is and that's why**  **19 we need to hear more about that.**  **20 MR EISNER: If I could throw in**  **21 here now, it's time to think about things like**  **22 putting burdens on anybody, but helping the** 

### Page 278

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Department find the ones who are not doing the**  **2 job well, like who are installing devices**  **3 illegally.**  **4 You know the industry very, very**  **5 well. You know how people are violating**  **6 rules. How can we find those people and start**  **7 getting a message out there, we will find you.**  **8 You will pay a penalty for this?**  **9 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **10 from Allied. I think one of the keys to this,**  **11 and part of the question's around definitions**  **12 is if there's a clear definition where it is**  **13 simple to understand and we can segregate good**  **14 from bad as easily as possible it will not be**  **15 a huge problem going forward.**  **16 But if we have this huge overlap**  **17 and all of these idiosyncracies that go along**  **18 with it, it is going to be very difficult to**  **19 enforce.**  **20 MEMBER CLARK: Which -- this is**  **21 Gary from Goodman -- which, for instance, was**  **22 kind of the whole point of the FTC label that** 

### Page 279

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 we had talked about at one time or if, in the**  **2 south the hang tag had to have, with the**  **3 minimal weighing on that scale, the minimal**  **4 weighing was at 14.**  **5 That'd be pretty simple for people**  **6 to figure out. If it doesn't start with a 14**  **7 and I'm sitting in Tallahassee, Florida, then**  **8 I'm probably in trouble. But we didn't get**  **9 that because the FTC and the DOE guys said**  **10 that wouldn't be workable.**  **11 But that's the kind of thing that**  **12 we're looking for, something that is painfully**  **13 obvious to people whether or not they're**  **14 compliant or not.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: I do want to clarify,**  **16 Gary, that -- this is Doug -- I'm not really**  **17 certain that the DOE and the FTC got together**  **18 and decided that isn't workable for the**  **19 labeling rule but we can talk more about that.**  **20 But we are where we are with the**  **21 labeling at the moment. So, Jordan, did you**  **22 have a point?** 

### Page 280

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER DORIA: Yes, I mean I think**  **2 the point you just made is an important one.**  **3 But I think when we consider enforcement**  **4 there's a couple different ways to approach**  **5 it. There is punishing the offenders.**  **6 But there's also approaches to**  **7 enforcement that actually make it far less**  **8 likely if actions can happen in the first**  **9 place.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Yes.**  **11 MEMBER DORIA: And I think as a**  **12 general principle that's always a very good**  **13 thing to do with enforcement. We punish drug**  **14 offenders, small ones, but a bigger goal often**  **15 is not putting drugs in their hands in the**  **16 first place, right?**  **17 And that's why the people who**  **18 traffic in the larger quantities get the**  **19 bigger sentences. The same principle holds**  **20 true here, I believe, that if you can make it**  **21 far less likely for people to commit**  **22 infractions in the first place we've gone a** 

### Page 281

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 very long way towards achieving our 2 enforcement goals, I believe.**  **3 So, I think, to point out that 4 hand gun rule that I think is an open one, but**  **5 I think that's a very important thing for us 6 to consider here, is making it less likely**  **7 infractions can happen. 8 MEMBER NOLL: Can you give us a**  **9 for instance? 10 MR. RAWALD: That's Elizabeth**  **11 Noll. MEMBER DORIA: Yes, so -- 12 MR. RAWALD: Jordan, do you want**  **13 to go ahead on this line again? 14 MEMBER DORIA: Yes. The for**  **15 instance would be some approach where, you 16 know, the 14-SEER hang tag in the south, using**  **17 that as one example, that that is effectively 18 all but -- if that's all that's on the market**  **19 in the south it's going to be very, very hard 20 -- not to say impossible -- very hard and**  **21 ultimately uneconomical, right? 22 Chuck did a good job of talking** 

### Page 282

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 about market pressures. Yes could you get**  **2 something from other than, you said, adding**  **3 all those things in? The theoretical impetus**  **4 behind violating the law is that it is lower**  **5 cost.**  **6 You add the cost to violating it**  **7 and now all of a sudden it becomes less**  **8 economical and just plain harder. So I think**  **9 that would be the approach, is to effectively**  **10 not make it easy for people to get products**  **11 that don't comply in the regions in which they**  **12 operate. So that would be the approach.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Yes, Surrena?**  **14 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena, AHB.**  **15 As Chuck has said earlier, a lot of expense is**  **16 reactive. He reacted to a problem that**  **17 happened. It's not a planned job. For**  **18 planned jobs that would be something**  **19 different. But reactive job, if a unit's not**  **20 for sale in that region and he has to react**  **21 quickly to replace it, it's not going to**  **22 replace it with something that shouldn't be.** 

### Page 283

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 So that solves these**  **2 fly-by-nights, two guys with a truck, whatever**  **3 you want to say. That solves them putting in**  **4 something less than they should unless they've**  **5 driven up to Minnesota to bring it back down.**  **6 They're not doing that. So that**  **7 narrows the purpose to where it's at. If it's**  **8 not available you can't get it.**  **9 MEMBER ROCKY: So -- I'm sorry. I**  **10 have to interject. And I know there are other**  **11 people talking about this. If you're --**  **12 MR. RAWALD: This is Bryan Rocky?**  **13 MEMBER ROCKY: Bryan Rocky. If**  **14 you're a dealer selling air conditioning to a**  **15 contractor, you know, ACCA member or not, in**  **16 Blackville, Oklahoma and you can sell only**  **17 14-SEER air conditioners.**  **18 But 12 miles away in Ark City,**  **19 Kansas you can sell 13-SEER air conditioners**  **20 and I'm not going to worry necessarily about**  **21 where I buy it, where I install it, one way it**  **22 doesn't matter. The other way, it makes all** 

### Page 284

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the difference in the world.**  **2 And there's -- we have to be**  **3 careful of the guy going across, 12 miles away**  **4 or in Ark City across the street, which**  **5 happens other places, in the same town. This**  **6 is legal on the north side of the street and**  **7 it's illegal on the south side of the street.**  **8 Okay, manufacturers can't control**  **9 that. Distributors can't control that. The**  **10 contractor's the only one who's going to know**  **11 where it goes and where do you install it.**  **12 We have to make it easy, simple,**  **13 straight forward and provide them the right**  **14 information. How do we do that when it can be**  **15 not talking Internet sales from Minnesota or**  **16 Montana to Florida? It's the guy across the**  **17 street on the other side of town or 20 minutes**  **18 away by truck.**  **19 MEMBER BALLO: I'd like to -- this**  **20 is Tim Ballo. My concern here is I'm hearing**  **21 that I sense the contractor's really the only**  **22 one who knows where this thing ends up.** 

### Page 285

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WHITE: The homeowner does**  **2 too.**  **3 MEMBER BALLO: Well, yes, but the**  **4 contractor also regards the information of**  **5 what he sold and to whom and where it was as**  **6 very confidential information. So unwilling**  **7 to share even in some cases with the**  **8 manufacturer.**  **9 Where can that information go in a**  **10 way that the contractor is comfortable with it**  **11 being aggregated or shared with only certain**  **12 people so that we can some assurance of where**  **13 the unit ended up but people who don't need to**  **14 find that out find that out?**  **15 MEMBER PORTER: Certainly not**  **16 HARDI.**  **17 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **18 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Transmitting**  **19 information across electronically is exposed**  **20 everywhere. And for a lot of these guys this**  **21 is their business. They sell their business**  **22 this is what they sell, their customers. And** 

### Page 286

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that's what makes them so anxious about this**  **2 releasing this information.**  **3 Same thing with a distributor. If**  **4 you've got a counter man who's really good and**  **5 he's keeping his own records, he goes to**  **6 another distributor and he can bring his book,**  **7 so to speak. So, and that's really corporate**  **8 espionage, so to speak, at a very low level.**  **9 But that happens, that type of situation**  **10 happens too.**  **11 So that's really why there's so**  **12 much reluctance, I think, to share this**  **13 information.**  **14 MEMBER PORTER: Steve Porter,**  **15 Harvey. I want to understand what you were,**  **16 you had a lot emotion, Bryan, so explain to me**  **17 what you were really trying to get at by the**  **18 border and how they get, do you think that's**  **19 a huge problem?**  **20 Or do you think it's -- what was**  **21 it you were really trying to get there because**  **22 I'm -- other than communicating where the line** 

### Page 287

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 is to the contractor, do you see a big**  **2 problem?**  **3 MR. RAWALD: Were you responding**  **4 to Jordan's --**  **5 MEMBER PORTER: I wasn't sure if**  **6 he was or not. I wasn't quite clear what you**  **7 were trying to get there. I'm sorry.**  **8 MEMBER ROCKY: Yes, this is Bryan.**  **9 And, again, I apologize for being a little**  **10 passionate about this. Like other**  **11 manufacturers we're trying to communicate to**  **12 our customers through distribution.**  **13 And everyone is concerned,**  **14 everyone is confused. And our issues that**  **15 we've talked about is not knowing what's going**  **16 on. And I deal with 200-some distribution**  **17 man. And I'm personally a mid-level player in**  **18 this. I'm not the big market share guy.**  **19 I'm dealing with 40,000**  **20 contractors through my six brands. The**  **21 manufacturers at this table represent roughly**  **22 98 percent of the central air conditioners.** 

### Page 288

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Last time I counted there were approximately**  **2 65 brands represented by these 7**  **3 manufacturers. And we sell-- I am obvious,**  **4 Karen can probably tell me or one of you guys**  **5 can -- about 6 million air conditioners this**  **6 year.**  **7 So 250 to 100,000 contractors I**  **8 have. And I'm trying to understand what I can**  **9 sell to you as a distributor and we will, in**  **10 our industry the manufacturers will be very**  **11 conscious about making sure our distribution**  **12 partners understand the law, the requirements**  **13 for us and where we cannot -- and can sell and**  **14 cannot sell a product.**  **15 Distribution partners are very**  **16 straightforward. They know what their**  **17 customer bases are. They know what the law is**  **18 going forward. They just redefine new**  **19 equipment.**  **20 Contractors, again, do -- the vast**  **21 majority of them are not out there to screw a**  **22 customer. They're there to make money like** 

### Page 289

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the distribution partners, like the**  **2 manufacturers, like the utilities selling**  **3 electricity and gas.**  **4 We're all in this to make a**  **5 living, and don't do that if you screw your**  **6 customer. We all know that. So you're going**  **7 to do the best you can.**  **8 And I don't have the answer for**  **9 that York guy in Ark City, Kansas of what he**  **10 can or cannot do in three months or four**  **11 months. So, yes, it's passionate. Others**  **12 probably could have said it better. We've got**  **13 to come up with something quick.**  **14 Simple is better. I don't know**  **15 how this is simple when we have heat pumps do**  **16 one thing, furnaces do one thing, air**  **17 conditioners do one thing, package units do**  **18 one thing and we're all funneling this through**  **19 to the same people.**  **20 The DOE database, at lunchtime**  **21 this afternoon or today, has 1,942,000**  **22 listings for central air conditioners and heat** 

### Page 290

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 pumps. So communicating that to customers, I**  **2 don't know. I started off trying to be**  **3 positive. I still want to be positive. I'm**  **4 just not sure how we're going to get there.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Ray's been waiting**  **6 for a while.**  **7 MEMBER ELLIS: It sounds like**  **8 we're assuming that to enforce this regulation**  **9 it has to be penalizing somebody to make it**  **10 work. And, again, I would like us to kind of**  **11 consider the idea of making an incentive for**  **12 people to do the right thing. And I think,**  **13 you know, when I think about the budget at**  **14 DOE, and we're talking about the greater good.**  **15 I mean, we're trying to save**  **16 electricity, overall, across the country and**  **17 why are we doing that? I'm sure there's**  **18 several answers to that. But if it is for the**  **19 greater good, and I know that the Department**  **20 of Energy's budget is rather sizable, and if**  **21 the Solyndras and other mistakes that are made**  **22 -- and I'm not holding that against anybody.** 

### Page 291

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 But if you decide to incentivize**  **2 the homeowner to purchase the right type of**  **3 equipment, and you can advertise. I mean --**  **4 you have the budget to advertise as well to**  **5 get that message across that if somebody puts**  **6 in the right size unit, then they're entitled**  **7 to a certain amount of a rebate or something**  **8 along that, much like the Cash for Clunkers or**  **9 whatever that went on for other things.**  **10 But if it is for the greater good**  **11 I think that you could find that you would cut**  **12 the willingness to cut that, or to do wrong,**  **13 way down. And it would also sell a lot more**  **14 units for the manufacturers and the**  **15 distributors and the contractors in the room**  **16 as well. But, you know, so I'd like us to try**  **17 to at least think about that aspect of it. I**  **18 know it might, maybe that's a real crazy idea,**  **19 but it works pretty well for us.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Right, and, Ray, I**  **21 want to point out that when I was discussing**  **22 this this morning I pointed out that there are** 

### Page 292

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 both carrots and sticks in our enforcement.**  **2 And so we should look at doing that, as far as**  **3 what dollars and cents arem what we can offer**  **4 and so there are things that you and I can**  **5 talk about. But Harvey wants to talk.**  **6 MEMBER SACHS: I appreciate that**  **7 Ray and our people, annualy, go through the**  **8 DOE budget and when you take out basic**  **9 research, including health, the atomic weapons**  **10 program, all of high energy physics, EERE is**  **11 one fingernail trim of budget. This whole**  **12 area of energy efficiency. And add to that,**  **13 in fact, that Congress dictates, line by line,**  **14 how much goes to standards, how much goes to**  **15 enforcement, and down to a level of way less**  **16 that $10 million. So --**  **17 MEMBER ELLIS: Right. Are you --**  **18 this is Ray Ellis.**  **19 MEMBER SACHS: -- this is all**  **20 things that would have to be legislated as**  **21 legitimate is the concern.**  **22 MEMBER ELLIS: I understand that.** 

### Page 293

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I'm fine that DOE has to foot the bill for the**  **2 whole thing. But just like we do, where we**  **3 charge a little bit at a wholesale rate where**  **4 we can get that back, you know, if there was**  **5 pressure put on the PSEs across the country,**  **6 even our IOU big brothers could probably be**  **7 incentivized to allow something like that to**  **8 occur.**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: What I wanted to**  **10 do, though, was run with two threads. One of**  **11 them was this thread that, if we have a bad**  **12 installation, including bad ductwork that**  **13 isn't fixed, and fixing ductwork can be**  **14 expensive, we've got 30 percent of the**  **15 performance that's lost. The difference**  **16 between a 14 and a 13 is roughly 7 percent.**  **17 So in context, thing we can have been trying,**  **18 I salute ACCA and the other contractor groups**  **19 for all their work on this in trying to do on**  **20 that end.**  **21 And I don't salute the builders**  **22 who insist on putting hip roofs and inadequate** 

### Page 294

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 equipment and duct work in Dallas, but that's**  **2 a side drive. Because you can't do that stuff**  **3 right, where it's reaching 130 degrees every**  **4 afternoon.**  **5 So just in context, the 14-13, I**  **6 mean, we have to get right. But, to me,**  **7 getting it right in part is things that will**  **8 have the potential to be less of a burden for**  **9 the professional contractor than the**  **10 fly-by-night who gets caught. So it's a**  **11 design element. The last thing I wanted to**  **12 roll back and ask about is that I just got**  **13 totally intrigued by Gary's comment on the**  **14 difficulties that the hang tag is going to**  **15 have by not having a hard cut off.**  **16 And I know would get close to**  **17 today, and I trust, if we actually ask**  **18 everybody to nod, but as Gary view generally**  **19 shared, that one of the key elements might be**  **20 a revised hang tag that simply says, this**  **21 thing is not certified to perform below --**  **22 except at installations. I'm sorry, this is** 

### Page 295

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a SEER-14 condensing unit, period.**  **2 Would that be a helpful thing? Is**  **3 that something that we be should carrying to**  **4 do some, so what do we do to get this fixed?**  **5 MR. AMRANE: Well, Harvey, this is**  **6 Karim. And as a matter of information, we**  **7 made that proposal -- presented a proposal to**  **8 the FTC and DOE. And the FTC was not**  **9 supportive.**  **10 MEMBER SACHS: So we don't do**  **11 magic, but is there any hope that they might**  **12 rethink it if they were those courts.**  **13 MR. AMRANE: Again, maybe that's a**  **14 decision that we need to add with Hampton --**  **15 MEMBER SACHS: I would talk to**  **16 them.**  **17 MR. AMRANE: -- when he --**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: I would encourage**  **19 us to put that on the agenda.**  **20 MR. RAWALD: Understood. So I**  **21 talked to Hampton Newsome about him possibly**  **22 coming to an future meeting. I can't** 

### Page 296

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 guarantee this, and I don't want to walk into**  **2 a bear trap so I'll sort of reflect on the**  **3 things that we talked about here and how his**  **4 name's been brought up in vain a number of**  **5 times, to make sure that he's well aware that**  **6 if he comes he will, of course -- if somebody**  **7 slings an arrow, it will not dissuade him from**  **8 coming. But hopefully he'll come with the**  **9 answers for those. But I'll see what I can do**  **10 to get him there.**  **11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: And this is**  **12 Dave at Allied. Part of that question could**  **13 be answered by the response around the**  **14 definitions.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Understood.**  **16 MEMBER SACHS: Good point. Good**  **17 point. Thank you, Dave.**  **18 MR. EISNER: Amy?**  **19 MEMBER SHEPERD: Right. And this**  **20 is Amy from AHI. And just to point out too**  **21 that the EBCA, under the provision for**  **22 regional standards, talks about the energy** 

### Page 297

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 guides or other methods that make it easy for**  **2 consumers and installers to use and understand**  **3 it at the point of installation.**  **4 So I don't know that necessarily**  **5 the energy guide's the only answer. So if**  **6 there was something else that folks wanted to**  **7 consider that could be even viewed as a safe**  **8 harbor, that if you provide this there could**  **9 be assumptions about compliance that go with**  **10 that. I think there's an add in there.**  **11 MEMBER SACHS: Amy, if I can just**  **12 follow up on that. This --**  **13 MR. RAWALD: That's Harvey.**  **14 MEMBER SACHS: This is Harvey.**  **15 The fuel economy rates from EPA do not allow**  **16 any other label. Is there anything in EBCA**  **17 that would prevent DOE from putting a label**  **18 on?**  **19 MEMBER SHEPERD: I don't know**  **20 about that, but I think that when it says it**  **21 could include other methods that makes it**  **22 easy.** 

### Page 298

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. RAWALD: Right. And this is**  **2 overall, so what I'm hearing you saying is**  **3 that we can be creative in offering an option**  **4 that's not a label that could be used to**  **5 provide information to consumers that could**  **6 somehow help them understand.**  **7 MEMBER SHEPERD: Well, it doesn't**  **8 have to be an energy guide label is all I'm**  **9 saying.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: Well --**  **11 MR. SURRENA: Don Surrena here.**  **12 Couldn't it also be DOE's interpretation of**  **13 the label? Not giving it the variable span**  **14 that the label shows, but saying that it shall**  **15 not be less than this part. So if the label**  **16 goes from 13 to 14.2 and an 14 is the minimal,**  **17 take the 14.**  **18 MR. RAWALD: Right, Don. As you**  **19 were saying, and this goes directly to Karen's**  **20 question. I think we already said it was a**  **21 14. This all seems to be a good question, and**  **22 so one that we'll have with the lawyers to see** 

### Page 299

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what our options would be on EBCA, because**  **2 they're the ones who are the most**  **3 knowledgeable at EBCA. And then we can come**  **4 back to it and talk about it at the next**  **5 meeting. I think it's a very good, at least,**  **6 brainstorm kernel for us. And John has his**  **7 hand up to --**  **8 MR. HURST: John Hurst, Lennox.**  **9 Can I just mention, in the spirit of**  **10 simplicity, the answer to Harvey's question is**  **11 yes, it would simplify it. However, I think**  **12 we are collectively stuck, because that's not**  **13 the way the regulation's written. It's just**  **14 not. And so we're kind of hoping for a**  **15 different answer, but that's just not the way**  **16 it's written right now. So, either you have**  **17 to go back and change the regulation. I think**  **18 the label reflects what the regulation says.**  **19 MEMBER SACHS: The FTC reg, or our**  **20 one?**  **21 MR. HURST: The FTC.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: I think, to** 

### Page 300

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 reclarify, John says the FTC label reflects**  **2 what the DOE regs are, that are in our regular**  **3 standards.**  **4 MR. HURST: Yes, but that they are**  **5 consistent, whether we like it or not, they're**  **6 consistent.**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, they're not.**  **8 MR. HURST: They're consistent.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Well, that's actually**  **10 our --**  **11 MEMBER SACHS: What did you say,**  **12 Erica?**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not --**  **14 MS. MEYERS: She said hey, hey --**  **15 MS. ARMSTRONG: They're not**  **16 inconsistent, but --**  **17 MR. HURST: Didn't say they were**  **18 inconsistent.**  **19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But at the same**  **20 time there's nothing in our regs that talk**  **21 about a range. They talk about a rating.**  **22 MR. HURST: But if that convincing** 

### Page 301

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you that --**  **2 MS. ARMSTRONG: The range comes**  **3 from the label.**  **4 MR. EISNER: And Ashley, we're**  **5 going to actually talk about this topic.**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good. Can we take**  **7 a break?**  **8 MR. EISNER: But let's -- we've**  **9 been talking for two hours, so if we can take**  **10 a break I think that would be helpful.**  **11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want to**  **12 take a break with us and we'll chat?**  **13 MR. EISNER: Yes, we're going to**  **14 take a break until five after three.**  **15 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter**  **16 went off the record at 2:50 p.m. and went back**  **17 on the record at 3:14 p.m.)**  **18 MR. EISNER: Can I get some**  **19 answers to some questions. This is being**  **20 recorded, right?**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right, well we**  **22 are not going to -- and so I'm going to caveat** 

### Page 302

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 this with we won't have all the answers but we**  **2 have talked it over with all of us. And**  **3 hopefully this will be helpful for a couple of**  **4 answers to the questions that you guys asked.**  **5 And one of the questions that I**  **6 heard from the parts that I've been hearing,**  **7 some of the things that Doug has relayed, I**  **8 think, boils down to, can you manufacture and**  **9 install condensing units or coils that do not**  **10 meet the standard when tested as a new**  **11 combination in accordance with a test**  **12 proceedure?**  **13 The simple answer to that one is**  **14 no. An individual condensing unit or a coil**  **15 must meet the current federal standard,**  **16 national or regional, when paired with the**  **17 appropriate other new part to make a system,**  **18 when tested in accordance with the DOE test**  **19 procedure and sample guide.**  **20 MEMBER MYERS: So, Ashley --**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll pause for a**  **22 minute.** 

### Page 303

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER MYERS: So, Ashley, you're**  **2 going to have to write that down for me,**  **3 because I'm not sure what you're saying.**  **4 MR. EISNER: I was just going to**  **5 ask her do we want this to --**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think the**  **7 Department will take it back and probably work**  **8 through some words, and maybe issue official**  **9 guidance on our position, with official words,**  **10 that this is Programs' ad hoc response without**  **11 the legal edits on top of it. So you will --**  **12 MEMBER ROCKY: Could you just**  **13 restate it again?**  **14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Well, there's more to**  **16 it, I guess. She's not done.**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not done. I**  **18 just --**  **19 MR. RAWALD: She paused for a**  **20 dramatic effect.**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, so going**  **22 back to the question, can you manufacture and** 

### Page 304

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 install condensing units or coils that do not**  **2 meet the standards when tested as a new**  **3 combination in accordance with our test**  **4 procedure?**  **5 Simple answer is no. And**  **6 individual condensing unit or coil must meet**  **7 the current federal standard when paired with**  **8 the appropriate other new part to make a**  **9 system, when tested, in accordance with the**  **10 DOE test procedure and standards.**  **11 DOE understands that individual**  **12 condensing units or coils may not meet the**  **13 federal standard when installed in a**  **14 replacement situation in the field. However,**  **15 the new individual condensing unit or coil**  **16 must have the capability of meeting the**  **17 current standard when tested and rated as a**  **18 new system, regardless of the fact that it is**  **19 being installed in an existing system. Okay?**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: Now what that seems**  **21 to say, in extreme case, is that if I were to**  **22 flush the old coil, which might have been a** 

### Page 305

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 SEER-10 coil, and put in a new extension --**  **2 MR. RAWALD: Speak up, Harvey.**  **3 MEMBER SACHS: Oh, it seems to say**  **4 that if I'm doing a replacement condensing**  **5 unit, and installing that with the existing**  **6 evaporator after flushing it thoroughly,**  **7 soldering on a new expansion unit, expansion**  **8 device, that even though I know that's, at**  **9 best, a SEER-10 evaporator, that that**  **10 condensing unit would be a SEER-14 with**  **11 something that today is legal. That's still**  **12 a legal installation.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Okay. And, Harvey, I**  **14 guess if tested in accordance with the DOE**  **15 test procedure, which lays out how it should**  **16 be tested, with what coils it should be tested**  **17 with, then yes.**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: But --**  **19 MR. RAWALD: So not just any coil,**  **20 but tested in accordance with test procedure**  **21 which --**  **22 MEMBER SACHS: So in that case the** 

### Page 306

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 answer would be no, that's not legal, because**  **2 I'm not testing it with a coil that would be**  **3 legal at 14 with that condensing unit.**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that's if**  **5 you're installing it. That's different,**  **6 right?**  **7 MEMBER SACHS: Im installing it.**  **8 All right, so the install versus test is --**  **9 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **10 at Allied. The question was could you**  **11 manufacture it, right? And the answer? I**  **12 didn't hear the --**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Any manufacturer**  **14 and installer.**  **15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Okay.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **17 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So --**  **18 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Sorry.**  **19 MEMBER FERNSTROM: -- this is**  **20 Gary. I think that's a disappointing outcome,**  **21 because these air conditioning condensing**  **22 units represented to have really good** 

### Page 307

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 performance when they the way you just**  **2 described can result in a system that has**  **3 really bad performance. So that's --**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's all based on**  **5 how they're tested in accordance the test**  **6 procedure with a new accompanying part.**  **7 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So I can't**  **8 disagree with you. But I can certainly**  **9 express a lot of disappointment about that,**  **10 because I think that does our country a**  **11 disservice.**  **12 MS. MEYERS: So, this is Karen for**  **13 Rheem. So we could build a 12-SEER condensing**  **14 unit and test it with an ECM motor that**  **15 allowed it to get 13, and it could be shipped**  **16 in the North. Or if we oversized the coil and**  **17 tested it with an oversized coil and a ECM**  **18 that bumped it up to 14, I could legally build**  **19 that condensing unit, that you know, would**  **20 only test it with a coil could only get a**  **21 12-SEER.**  **22 MS. ARMSTRONG: I would argue that** 

### Page 308

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the provisions of the test procedure won't**  **2 allow you to get those ratings for a 12-SEER**  **3 condensing unit.**  **4 MEMBER MYERS: It'll allow me to**  **5 get to a 13.**  **6 MEMBER SACHS: What if it did? If**  **7 it could?**  **8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, but that coil**  **9 only rating.**  **10 MEMBER SACHS: It's got to be a**  **11 coil only rating --**  **12 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to argue**  **14 that you're not going to get what, the ECM,**  **15 with that coil only, test procedure, because**  **16 you're pushed.**  **17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **18 with Allied. The way that I understand it,**  **19 the federal minimum efficiency, single-stage,**  **20 has to be tested as a coil only to meet the**  **21 minimums.**  **22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that's the** 

### Page 309

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 second question. Do you want to get there?**  **2 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: That's for**  **3 federal minimums. But we've talked about**  **4 regional.**  **5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So our test**  **6 procedure, I will say it right now, the test**  **7 procedure doesn't distinguish. It says these**  **8 units must be tested for the purposes of**  **9 generating ratings. There's no distinguishing**  **10 feature about a national standard, or a**  **11 regional standard. It just says review types**  **12 of units. This is how you test them.**  **13 MEMBER MYERS: Okay.**  **14 MS. ARMSTRONG: And this is how**  **15 you get your rating. Period. It doesn't talk**  **16 about compliance with the regional standards.**  **17 It doesn't talk about compliance with national**  **18 standards. It just says, I have this type of**  **19 unit, here's the methodology I go about using**  **20 to come up with my rated value, my certified**  **21 rating.**  **22 MEMBER LATTANZI: So, Matt** 

### Page 310

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 Lattanzi, North. So is it -- my original **2 question about a 14-SEER rating in the south 3 using a 13-SEER air conditioner with an ECM,**  **4 is that question still open or did you answer 5 it?**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is still 7 open, in my opinion.**  **8 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay. That's 9 what I thought. Thank you.**  **10 MS. ARMSTRONG: What this does 11 answer, I believe is, I think there were some**  **12 questions about condensing units when sold in 13 replacement situations by themselves, and how**  **14 does that work. And this is saying you can't 15 just indefinitely manufacture coils or**  **16 condensing units -- 17 MEMBER LATTANZI: So in other**  **18 words, it's to our Dry R-22 Question. That 19 way we have a definitive answer.**  **20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's wider. 21 MEMBER LATTANZI: It's wider but**  **22 --**

### Page 311

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: But, yes, that's**  **2 what it answers. Okay.**  **3 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay. Second**  **4 question.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: Though, since we're**  **6 at this, Doug, I want to draw your attention**  **7 to that part, that Dry R-22 guidance was how**  **8 you would go about certifying, getting a**  **9 certified rating for those Dry R-22 units.**  **10 And this is still --**  **11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's still on**  **12 the table.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: That's still an open**  **14 question on how you would get to certified**  **15 rated valuefor a Dry R-22 condensing unit.**  **16 But the broader question, which is the one I**  **17 actually answered, which is the fact that when**  **18 tested, in our test procedure, the condenser**  **19 must perform at the level that are required by**  **20 the standard.**  **21 MR. LATTANZI: Right.**  **22 MR. RAWLAD An then at** 

### Page 312

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 installation it may function worse because of**  **2 the coils are going to bring it down. But**  **3 that's what we were required of the connection**  **4 I sold.**  **5 MR. LATTANZI: I got it. Okay,**  **6 two more questions for Ashley. Matt Lattanzi.**  **7 Ashley, where are the department published**  **8 guidance that clears up both of these**  **9 questions?**  **10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The Department has**  **11 heard the concerns. And I think, at least**  **12 with the question I just answered we will be**  **13 publishing guidance, articulating the words I**  **14 just said in our official manner. With**  **15 regards to some of the other questions you**  **16 guys have posed we will figuring out how we**  **17 can best address those. So --**  **18 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay, thank you.**  **19 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- that's the best**  **20 I can do.**  **21 MEMBER FERNSTROM: So, Ashley,**  **22 this is Gary. Following up, then, on what you** 

### Page 313

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 said, if this unit can be installed in a**  **2 replacement situation with an existing coil,**  **3 where the performance is lower than the test**  **4 procedure indicates with the specified coil**  **5 wouldn't then the FTC rating be misleading?**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would -- so**  **7 I'm going to turn your words around. What I'm**  **8 hearing Gary argue is that our test procedure**  **9 is not representative.**  **10 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Well, I wasn't**  **11 really thinking about that so much as the FTC**  **12 label, not --**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's based on a**  **14 test procedure, so --**  **15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: Yes. Oh, okay.**  **16 So, putting it all together, it puts out the**  **17 way we stated it. That would be a**  **18 disappointing consequence too because, well,**  **19 I thought the FTC was all about truth in**  **20 labeling.**  **21 MR. AMRANE: Gary, this is Karim**  **22 from the HRI. The issue exists today. So** 

### Page 314

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 you're not disappointed today, but you're**  **2 going to be disappointed in the future.**  **3 MEMBER FERNSTROM: I was hoping to**  **4 make some gains in the diminishment of my**  **5 disappointment.**  **6 MEMBER MYERS: So let me -- this**  **7 is Karen with Rheem. Let me just ask this**  **8 again. So I have a 13-SEER condensing unit**  **9 that I test with a coil in accordance with DOE**  **10 test procedures and it gets a 13.0. In**  **11 certain combinations I also rate that same**  **12 condensing unit and coil with an ECM equipped**  **13 furnace and it gives me a 14.0. Can I sell**  **14 that condensing unit in the south?**  **15 MR. RAWALD: I think we need to**  **16 defer into that at the moment. So we'll**  **17 discuss that for --**  **18 MEMBER MYERS: That's what I need.**  **19 MR. RAWALD: Yes, I know you do,**  **20 Karen. I know. So --**  **21 MR. EISNER: Do you guys have an**  **22 idea on timing that you can -- I mean, this is** 

### Page 315

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 maybe 40 minutes to --**  **2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Let's skip the**  **3 second one, and maybe we'll get back to that**  **4 one for a second. So the other question I got**  **5 was how are single-stage split system air**  **6 conditioners tested and rated? And so this**  **7 is, there's a specific provision in our regs.**  **8 And I can weigh it down, it's got a lot of**  **9 extra things, for anyone that's interested.**  **10 But any split system air**  **11 conditioner having a single speed compressor,**  **12 the condenser evaporator coil combination**  **13 selected for tests shall include the and-or**  **14 coil only unit that is likely to have the**  **15 largest volume of retail sales.**  **16 So this means that these types of**  **17 units have to be tested with a coil only test**  **18 procedure. This means that to comply with the**  **19 standard the resulting rating from that coil**  **20 only test must meet the standard, regardless**  **21 of any range represented on the performance as**  **22 represented by the FTC label.** 

### Page 316

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: Wow.**  **2 MEMBER MYERS: So did that not**  **3 answer my question?**  **4 MEMBER SACHS: Yes. Oh, it did.**  **5 MS. ARMSTRONG: That did answer**  **6 your question.**  **7 MEMBER MYERS: Well, why did you**  **8 say --**  **9 MR. RAWALD: I just needed you to**  **10 wait.**  **11 MEMBER MYERS: You're killing me.**  **12 MEMBER LATTANZI: Could you read**  **13 that again?**  **14 MEMBER MYERS: So I'm going to ask**  **15 my question again, now that you've completed**  **16 your statement.**  **17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we will go**  **18 through the process of putting this out**  **19 officially. But I will read it again, because**  **20 I know that I'm supposed to. Ready?**  **21 MEMBER SACHS: You could just hit**  **22 record and put it on mute.** 

### Page 317

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. MEYERS: I have been writing.**  **2 The court reporter might want it.**  **3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So any split**  **4 system air conditioner having a single speed**  **5 compressor, the condenser evaporator coil**  **6 combination selected for tests shall include**  **7 the and-or coil only unit that is likely to**  **8 have the largest volume of retail sales with**  **9 that particular model of outdoor unit.**  **10 Thus, they would all need to be**  **11 tested with a coil only test procedure, if**  **12 they are this type of air conditioner. This**  **13 means to comply with the standard the**  **14 resulting reading from the coil only test must**  **15 meet the standard, regardless of the range**  **16 represented at the performance on the FTC**  **17 label.**  **18 (Simultaneous Speaking.)**  **19 MEMBER MYERS: You still have to**  **20 answer my question. So I'm going to ask my**  **21 question again.**  **22 MEMBER MYERS: I know.** 

### Page 318

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER LATTANZI: Okay.**  **2 (Simultaneous Speaking.)**  **3 MEMBER MYERS: Is the answer to my**  **4 question, then, no?**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So, Karen, if the**  **6 question is the certified rating that you**  **7 achieve in this type run, these requirements**  **8 are laid out, is 13, then it cannot be sold in**  **9 a region where 14 is supposed to be what the**  **10 requirement is.**  **11 MEMBER MYERS: Thank you.**  **12 MR. EISNER: Right.**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.**  **14 MR. EISNER: And we're going to**  **15 publish that, I heard you say?**  **16 MR. RAWALD: Right.**  **17 MR. EISNER: Right, great.**  **18 MEMBER ROCKY: So just to -- I'm**  **19 sorry, just to clarify, it's all the regs**  **20 today?**  **21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It isn't in the**  **22 regs. This is all based on our current** 

### Page 319

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 record.**  **2 MEMBER ROCKY: So the current regs**  **3 and the new process a 13-SEER air conditioner**  **4 has a high sales volume tested combination**  **5 must be 13-SEER for the north, must be 14-SEER**  **6 for the south in that particular combination.**  **7 But it does not prohibit having a different**  **8 kind of sales volume tested combination for**  **9 that condenser, based on region?**  **10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It doesn't define**  **11 them. It doesn't define them separately.**  **12 There's a singular, for outdoor units,**  **13 there's a singular high sales line tested**  **14 combination.**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Well, our regs don't**  **16 currently describe the ability to pick and**  **17 choose this high volume sales issue.**  **18 (Off record comments.)**  **19 MR. RAWALD: So, leading again, I**  **20 don't want to kick it up again, but if we**  **21 could have one at a time, so we get back to**  **22 what the conversation actually is.** 

### Page 320

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MEMBER MYERS: Sorry. **2 MR. RAWALD: That's okay. 3 MR. MCCRUDDEN: So I kind of, I**  **4 asked, actually, to answer and I'll just ask 5 the group because I don't do this stuff, but**  **6 is it -- and this is Charlie at ACCA -- is it 7 the group's consensus that the FTC label is**  **8 bad? 9 MEMBER MYERS: So --**  **10 MR. MCCRUDDEN: I mean, does that 11 sort of give us a reason to go to FTC and say**  **12 -- 13 MEMBER MYERS: It's misleading.**  **14 MR. MCCRUDDEN: -- your label's 15 bad?**  **16 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave 17 from Allied. I don't know that it's what we**  **18 would call bad. It's going to be very 19 confusing.**  **20 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Is it misleading? 21 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: It's**  **22 misleading.**

### Page 321

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Simultaneous speaking.)**  **2 MR. HURST: I would say on the FTC**  **3 label -- well, it doesn't represent what the**  **4 minimum is --**  **5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Yes.**  **6 MR. HURST: -- or just application**  **7 in homes. It represents a range of**  **8 possibilities.**  **9 MEMBER MYERS: I would even change**  **10 that and say the FTC label today interprets**  **11 the DOE regulations correctly for the north.**  **12 It does not reflect the DOE regulations for**  **13 the south.**  **14 MEMBER SACHS: For the south, yes.**  **15 I agree with it.**  **16 MR. EISNER: If there was an**  **17 accurate statement from the DOE people I would**  **18 ask is there any reason why FTC would not**  **19 change the label. If it's supposed to be**  **20 based on your rule. And you're telling them**  **21 it's wrong why wouldn't they change it?**  **22 MR. RAWALD: So this is Doug now.** 

### Page 322

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I'm not speaking about FTC. So understand the**  **2 FTC is kind of in the position of trying to**  **3 make sure the label adequately represents what**  **4 the product does. The range, in their**  **5 opinion, shows what the product can do with**  **6 the worst coil and the best coil. Whereas**  **7 showing just one value, which is what you get**  **8 using the DOE test procedure doesn't**  **9 adequately show that range.**  **10 And so FTC, who's goal was**  **11 different than DOE in this program, is maybe**  **12 showing an adequate representation of all of**  **13 the representations that are out there. So**  **14 they're saying oh, you can't be, allege that**  **15 we're being misleading. So we're covering all**  **16 of our bases, the worst case scenario and the**  **17 best case scenario, by having this range.**  **18 Whereas having one dot on the**  **19 line, which is what you get with DOE test**  **20 procedure, wouldn't necessarily show all. And**  **21 so we want to make sure that consumer's not**  **22 mislead, they know that if they get a** 

### Page 323

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 different coil than what you tested under the**  **2 DOE test procedure you're getting the worst**  **3 value. So that may mean a system where the**  **4 goals are assumes -- hypothetically or**  **5 pedantically about why it's been out there in**  **6 our conversation.**  **7 MR. AMRANE: But, Doug, today the**  **8 label has to be one.**  **9 MR. RAWALD: Oh, I understand**  **10 that, Karim. I -- no, I know that, so.**  **11 MEMBER CLARK: This is Gary Clark**  **12 from Goodman. I guess -- I understand exactly**  **13 what you're saying but from a practical**  **14 standpoint and as we've discussed earlier,**  **15 what typically happens is the homeowner gets**  **16 the FTC label after they've purchased the**  **17 product. And so the concern I would have**  **18 about trying to communicate things is that it**  **19 will cause confusion, because someone will buy**  **20 a 13-SEER unit and they will sit and question**  **21 the dealer as to why it doesn't get 14.**  **22 Well, what could you have done to** 

### Page 324

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 make it 14-SEER? And it will, in many cases,**  **2 make the dealer look like they did something**  **3 incorrectly that kept the performance at the**  **4 bottom and of the scale, while that's not**  **5 really what happened.**  **6 MR. RAWALD: And that's some good**  **7 information that should be carried out through**  **8 your statements.**  **9 MEMBER MEYERS: Yes, in and ideal**  **10 world, to me, FTC would just come out with**  **11 another label for split systems sold in the**  **12 south that would have 14 to 15.2 or whatever**  **13 that range is. So it's not that the label I**  **14 wrong. It's only correct for the north**  **15 because that minimum needs to be either 13, or**  **16 14 based upon how we rate products.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Right. So what I**  **18 would tell people, and I tell them first off**  **19 and that we can't really have any typed out at**  **20 the moment, is that I will talk to Hampton**  **21 Newsome when he returns.**  **22 I will explain to him the issue** 

### Page 325

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that we see here. We will see if he would be**  **2 willing to come here and talk to us. I'll**  **3 talk with Dan and see where our thoughts would**  **4 be as far as the Department engaging with that**  **5 CMS.**  **6 But we hear the concerns, and I do**  **7 hear them. And I think that's where we're at**  **8 is that it seems that the group is generally**  **9 thinking of in terms of understanding how DOE**  **10 views the spit out, the numbers spit out from**  **11 our test procedure, that the label itself**  **12 might cause confusion to the consumer, which**  **13 is something we want to avoid.**  **14 MR. COHEN: And this is Dan. Just**  **15 want to other points I want to make about what**  **16 you're saying. I think FTC, the basic issue**  **17 is two things. One, they've already completed**  **18 the rule making, so if they do something now**  **19 on their label with lines, they can't just**  **20 sort of tomorrow spit out a different label**  **21 and say go use this.**  **22 So there's a certain amount of** 

### Page 326

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 resource and need to kind of fold into that**  **2 process. The other thing is I think they also**  **3 look at it as the label that they came up in**  **4 the first round of rule making was one that**  **5 they see as was sort of suggested to them by**  **6 the industry. I think there's a certain**  **7 amount of resentment, you know, we kind of did**  **8 what you asked, and now you're asking for**  **9 more.**  **10 MEMBER PORTER: Doug, it's Steve**  **11 Porter, HARDI. So I guess, and you've got to**  **12 help me here because I don't know the process**  **13 and I don't quite know how the relationship**  **14 works between DOE and FTC and who trumps who**  **15 out in the marketplace.**  **16 And so I struggle here in that if**  **17 FTC's position is what I would imagine it to**  **18 be, which is, I'm not sure, is to go are you**  **19 telling me you tested it this way, but it**  **20 still can make 14-SEER with an air handler,**  **21 and you're going to rob the consumer of that**  **22 choice, and I'm not going to let you do that** 

### Page 327

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 because that's a cheaper option.**  **2 I don't know. I just want to know**  **3 this for future planning or how we deal with**  **4 this agency going forward, because we work**  **5 together for future regulations, so we don't**  **6 end up in the same spot. So I'm confused that**  **7 even if we do it the way that DOE shows it to**  **8 be done, that there's not going to be a**  **9 consumer advocacy go, be us. You can't do**  **10 that. Because there was a cheaper solution**  **11 and you didn't allow it to happen, and we all**  **12 ended up back in court.**  **13 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, Matt**  **14 Lattanzi. Steve, that's the way it is today**  **15 though for 13-SEER. I mean, it really is**  **16 basically maintaining the status quo in a**  **17 regional world.**  **18 MEMBER PORTER: Right.**  **19 MEMBER LATTANZI: So if you**  **20 haven't had that issue with 13-SEER then I**  **21 suspect we would be okay with at regional**  **22 standard as well.** 

### Page 328

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 (Simultaneous speaking.) **2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm not quite 3 following what you're asking, either.**  **4 MR. COHEN: Well, again, now --- 5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: That's two of us.**  **6 MEMBER HUNGERFORD: I don't think 7 that FTC is looking at it as a way of you're**  **8 taking away cheaper options. 9 MEMBER PORTER: But how do you**  **10 know? That's why I'm kind of asking. 11 MR. COHEN: They're a different**  **12 agency, and they -- but I think they're 13 looking at it as it is legally -- there is a**  **14 physical possibility of making something that 15 would meet the standard and we're taking an**  **16 option off. 17 MEMBER PORTER: Yes, they're**  **18 taking the cheaper out of it. They're saying 19 that it could be done.**  **20 MR. COHEN: Right. 21 MEMBER PORTER: So they don't**  **22 care, I guess. I guess I wonder, they all**

### Page 329

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 care now, right?**  **2 MEMBER COHEN: No, they view it as**  **3 they're actually being, they are being --**  **4 again, I'm speaking for a different agency so**  **5 I'm not, but I think they're viewing it as**  **6 they are being more complete in the**  **7 information they're providing because it is**  **8 physically possible to be done.**  **9 MEMBER PORTER: Okay.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: But the long and**  **11 short of it would be the label is not**  **12 indicative of what DOE views as compliance,**  **13 right, because we view the fact that it makes**  **14 compliance is the spit-out data you get from**  **15 following our test procedures.**  **16 And that number that comes out**  **17 tells you what the SEER value is and what that**  **18 should be if you're just doing one point.**  **19 MEMBER PORTER: So that's what**  **20 they'll defer to at FTC?**  **21 MR. RAWALD: Well, they're not**  **22 the ones that are enforcing the standard. We** 

### Page 330

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 are.**  **2 MEMBER PORTER: Okay. Right,**  **3 that's the point though.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: The standard we're**  **5 enforcing is going to be based upon the data**  **6 that you get from testing the condenser in the**  **7 fourth day weakness cheater test.**  **8 MEMBER PORTER: Okay. That**  **9 answered my question. Thank you.**  **10 MR. RAWALD: All right. So I**  **11 guess, I know that's what Gary said earlier,**  **12 which I only wrapped on the axle on this, the**  **13 label one. Arguably, it's of lesser**  **14 importance for this possible product. And so**  **15 it's important but we cannot let that wag the**  **16 dog.**  **17 And so if we can develop and**  **18 enforce something that works, understand the**  **19 limitation that legal has put on that from a**  **20 consumer point of view, let's do that. Let's**  **21 just embrace the reality of what we have here**  **22 which is the label is a label. And let's do** 

### Page 331

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 what we can to keep them informed of what**  **2 they're doing.**  **3 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth.**  **4 Just, I mean, Amy read the statute that said**  **5 there are other materials that we can develop**  **6 to guide consumers. That may be another area.**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MEMBER MYERS: I mean, if that**  **9 means prohibiting -- well, let me ask a**  **10 question, right? No? So for a manufacturer**  **11 we put those writings on the FTC label, what**  **12 is the minimum that we have to put on the**  **13 label?**  **14 Now the range is the range. The**  **15 range is defined by the --**  **16 MEMBER ROCKY: The regs.**  **17 MEMBER MYERS: The range is**  **18 defined by the regs. Okay, now I think I**  **19 answered. Never mind.**  **20 MEMBER ROCKY: No, I'm sorry. So**  **21 there is the label, right?**  **22 MR. COHEN: Yes.** 

### Page 332

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **2 MEMBER ROCKY: So that**  **3 representation of the label has a range. And**  **4 that's what we're going to put on the product**  **5 as per FTC requirements, even though that**  **6 doesn't show the DOE minimum that unit**  **7 achieves based on rating.**  **8 It's referenced in the table what**  **9 the minimum needs to be. But that label --**  **10 MEMBER MYERS: So, Bryan, my**  **11 question is that range, that 13 to 14.2, who**  **12 establishes that? Like if I had a 16-SEER**  **13 unit what happens to the 13 to 14.2?**  **14 MEMBER ROCKY: So based on what**  **15 Ashley and Doug just said, that unit has, for**  **16 a northern unit, has a highest sales volume**  **17 testing combination coil only with 13. That's**  **18 the minimum number.**  **19 MEMBER MYERS: Let's say I have a**  **20 coil --**  **21 MEMBER ROCKY: If it's 14 as the**  **22 minimum to sell it in the South, that's what** 

### Page 333

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the range has to show.**  **2 MEMBER MYERS: See, we don't need**  **3 that coil, right? So we don't need that coil.**  **4 The range in the South.**  **5 MR. MCCRUDDEN: If you look at the**  **6 label inside that box you've got least**  **7 efficient/most efficient on the bar that's --**  **8 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **9 MEMBER ROCKY: But I can't do**  **10 anything about the 14-SEER.**  **11 MR. MCCRUDDEN: Right.**  **12 MEMBER CLARK: Let's say the**  **13 highest sales volume tested combination is**  **14 14-SEER. But you may have coil-only**  **15 combinations that are below 14-SEER. Still**  **16 above 13 but below 14.**  **17 MEMBER MYERS: I can't say 13.**  **18 Maybe it's 13-A.**  **19 MEMBER ROCKY: That's right. You**  **20 said 14. It doesn't have to be 14. If you**  **21 have a 14-SEER unit it can fall below 14 and**  **22 still be compliant for sales in the North.** 

### Page 334

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MR. EISNER: Right, because of the**  **2 match.**  **3 MEMBER MYERS: Are you sure?**  **4 MR. EISNER: This one would range**  **5 about 13 to 13.8, right?**  **6 MEMBER ROCKY: You only get one**  **7 highest sales volume tested combination per**  **8 for an outdoor unit.**  **9 MEMBER MEYERS: And if that's --**  **10 okay.**  **11 MEMBER ROCKY: So that's going to**  **12 define what that number is, I think, on the**  **13 lower left-hand side. The lower range.**  **14 MEMBER MEYERS: I think I agree**  **15 with you. You can't put in that range**  **16 anything that is lower than your highest sales**  **17 volume tested combination.**  **18 MEMBER ROCKY: Right. That's what**  **19 I believe I heard --**  **20 MEMBER MEYERS: You don't?**  **21 MR. HURST: The highest sales**  **22 volume tested combination would be deep within** 

### Page 335

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 the range. But that's not to be the base.**  **2 MEMBER ROCKY: Right. It's true**  **3 today with a 16-SEER unit you'll have -- now**  **4 a two-stage unit, there are a lot of situation**  **5 where they'll have the highest sales volume**  **6 tested combination and you'll have ratings**  **7 less than that. And lower than that. But**  **8 that's two-stage. We're talking single stage**  **9 at this point.**  **10 MEMBER CLARK: You know, in this**  **11 same situation you're going to get --**  **12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, all those**  **13 right.**  **14 MEMBER ROCKY: As long as you're**  **15 above 13, right? So I'm sorry, Bryan and Rob,**  **16 just to clarify, Karen and I thought we heard**  **17 one thing. Ashley, you and Gary were shaking**  **18 your heads saying no, this is something else.**  **19 Can you just restate what --**  **20 MEMBER MYERS: For a single-speed**  **21 -- let me give this a push. For a**  **22 single-speed air conditioner that's rating is** 

### Page 336

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 established that's the highest sales volume**  **2 tested combination does that have to be the**  **3 minimum that is shown on that range?**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I'd**  **5 have to look at FTC regs to be able to answer**  **6 that right off for you.**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MR. RAWALD: Right. So I guess**  **9 what I'm saying is we don't control or dictate**  **10 what is on that label. So the FTC rating rule**  **11 says here's the range the manufacturer is**  **12 putting on the label.**  **13 And where that range comes from,**  **14 it comes from, presumably, from modeling with**  **15 various coils and testing with that condenser.**  **16 But from dealing these enforcement purposes,**  **17 from enforcing compliance with our standard,**  **18 the number we care about is what you get from**  **19 matching with the highest sales volume portal.**  **20 And if that number is the bottom,**  **21 the middle or the top of that range that's not**  **22 what we're concerned about because that's not** 

### Page 337

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 our reg. And Laura's shaking her head at me**  **2 and saying, no, I'm wrong. So I --**  **3 MEMBER MYERS: Yes, so I agree**  **4 with Laura. So for -- we just said that for**  **5 the South a 14-SEER coil only rating is the**  **6 minimum.**  **7 MR. RAWALD: Right. Well, we**  **8 always, the standard is 14-SEER.**  **9 MEMBER MYERS: But your rating has**  **10 to be based upon single-speed 14-SEER unit**  **11 based upon your highest sales volume tested**  **12 combination.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: That's right.**  **14 MEMBER MYERS: So that means it's**  **15 got to be 14 for the South.**  **16 MR. RAWALD: That's correct.**  **17 MEMBER MYERS: So your range can't**  **18 be below that. Single-speed air conditioner,**  **19 coil only.**  **20 MEMBER CLARK: You're selling an**  **21 amount of labels for a --**  **22 MEMBER MYERS: So you come up with** 

### Page 338

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that range based upon your R.**  **2 MEMBER CLARK: Right.**  **3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we need to**  **4 address the -- there's two issues. I think we**  **5 addressed one of them. And then your**  **6 question, while I'm not able to address it for**  **7 FTC's range, I think your ask of us is what**  **8 are valid ratings for other combinations of**  **9 that system.**  **10 Because your range is based on**  **11 valid ratings.**  **12 MEMBER MYERS: Right, and we**  **13 pulled that up.**  **14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You need evidence.**  **15 If you can't come up with a valid rating**  **16 pursuant to the DOE test procedure we're**  **17 saying you can't have it in the range.**  **18 So really your question is what is**  **19 a valid rating. And that's something that I**  **20 did not address. And that is something we**  **21 need to take back.**  **22 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave** 

### Page 339

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 with Allied. Specifically to Karen's**  **2 question, I mean, we can have a 14-SEER system**  **3 with what we feel is the highest tested sales**  **4 volume match for that 14-SEER. That outdoor**  **5 unit we can also match with a smaller indoor.**  **6 Okay, we don't think that a usage**  **7 of that is our highest tested sales volume.**  **8 I think this is what Karen is trying to --**  **9 it's still, the way that I understand, the way**  **10 the FTC guide it set up today, whatever you**  **11 can rate that unit with it goes to the lowest**  **12 and the highest, whatever it is.**  **13 MEMBER CLARK: As long as it's**  **14 above 13.**  **15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: As long as**  **16 it's above 13.**  **17 MEMBER CLARK: Okay. I**  **18 understand. I get it.**  **19 MEMBER MEYERS: That's why I think**  **20 I'm back to my problem.**  **21 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Now I think it**  **22 solves --** 

### Page 340

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I do not follow**  **2 your problem completely. Am I --**  **3 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: No, I agree**  **4 with that. It doesn't completely solve the**  **5 problem. It solves it from a what meets**  **6 the DOE reg standpoint.**  **7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think so.**  **8 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: No?**  **9 MS. ARMSTRONG: All I did was**  **10 address how the test --**  **11 MEMBER MEYERS: We're back to our**  **12 same problem.**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're back to --**  **14 that did not address the whole problem, that**  **15 is accurate. And I can't address the whole**  **16 problem right now, be patient. I can't do it.**  **17 There are some obstinate issues.**  **18 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **19 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, I mean, it**  **20 didn't address the whole problem. I mean, if**  **21 it's not all of it, it's pert near all of it.**  **22 Well, I mean, I walked away with a clear** 

### Page 341

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understanding and now, I'm sorry, because I**  **2 really thought we did address the full**  **3 problem.**  **4 MEMBER MYERS: No, not anymore.**  **5 MEMBER LATTANZI: No, but I get**  **6 what, exactly what they say and I understand**  **7 where you're coming -- I mean, the number**  **8 might be lower or it might be, you know, 13**  **9 because you could have a 3-ton outdoor and**  **10 size it to a 2-ton or a 2.5-ton indoor. And**  **11 it'd be valid in the North.**  **12 MEMBER CLARK: Right. But up**  **13 North where you don't need --**  **14 MEMBER LATTANZI: I get it. It's**  **15 lower cooler loads, right, yes.**  **16 MEMBER CLARK: For some crazy**  **17 reason --**  **18 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, it seems**  **19 to me like there's a 100 percent but where's**  **20 the --**  **21 MEMBER CLARK I mean, the label, I**  **22 think, is ambiguous and misleading. I think** 

### Page 342

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 it should be fixed.**  **2 MEMBER LATTANZI: But I think**  **3 there are a lot them are answers --**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: No.**  **5 MEMBER CLARK: Well, you're**  **6 shaking your head.**  **7 MEMBER MEYERS: No, because we**  **8 have an R&D database and that unit's going**  **9 down the production line. And it's model XYZ.**  **10 And it's got a range of ratings that you have**  **11 established in your database.**  **12 Now, because we have two, we have**  **13 a national standard and a regional standard,**  **14 although your highest sales volume for your**  **15 14-SEER 3-ton may be 14, you could also put**  **16 that same condenser with a 2.5-ton coil and**  **17 you could get a 13.8.**  **18 So your range, because you're**  **19 going -- you're looking at your database, your**  **20 production line is pulling that -- is 13.8 to**  **21 maybe 14.9.**  **22 MEMBER LATTANZI: Right.** 

### Page 343

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER MEYERS: So now you've got,**  **2 now that unit where -- can you -- So now you**  **3 have that same issue. You've just adjusted**  **4 this range.**  **5 MEMBER CLARK: You couldn't sell**  **6 it in the South.**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MEMBER WHITE: Can't you all --**  **9 Can't I just sell the combinations that are 14**  **10 or greater?**  **11 MEMBER MEYERS: I don't --**  **12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's your --**  **13 that's the question that you've given me. What**  **14 combinations --**  **15 MEMBER MYERS: I don't know what's**  **16 being installed.**  **17 MEMBER WHITE: But, if in the**  **18 South, it has to be 14, anything that's under**  **19 14 I can't use those combinations in the**  **20 South. And then 14 or greater --**  **21 MEMBER MEYERS: But I don't know**  **22 what that is.** 

### Page 344

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if your **2 highest -- do you ever have a case where your 3 highest sales test combination is a 13.8 but**  **4 you have other combinations that are larger. 5 It's just that your range goes up to a 14.5?**  **6 MEMBER CLARK: Yes. 7 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes.**  **8 MEMBER WHITE: Yes. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you do**  **10 then? 11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Round up.**  **12 (Simultaneous speaking) 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What would you do**  **14 in that case? 15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Ashley, it's**  **16 possible, but we don't design that way 17 typically, okay. We design at these market**  **18 thresholds. Okay? The minimum efficiency 19 level is what it is. But then if there's**  **20 another line 14 we're not typically going to 21 design something that's going to be at this**  **22 number that doesn't fit at one of these kind**

### Page 345

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of lines in the sand if you will.**  **2 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, Dave, in**  **3 my opinion, what's kind of messed that up is**  **4 Energy Star.**  **5 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes, I agree.**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Plus you're**  **7 running it through a second organization.**  **8 MEMBER LATTANZI: Well, Dave**  **9 opened up with 14.5.**  **10 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes, the 14.5,**  **11 I agree with you.**  **12 MEMBER LATTANZI: That situation**  **13 you just pointed out exactly. It's a 13.8 to**  **14 14.6 or something.**  **15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: But again, that**  **16 is typically above the line that we're talking**  **17 about.**  **18 MEMBER ROCKY: So the problem is,**  **19 to me, just to summarize this, I'm going to**  **20 finish that up. I promise. This label meets**  **21 the FTC requirements. We don't want to put**  **22 the range on there based on DOE test** 

### Page 346

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 procedures. But now longer is a valid **2 communication to the homeowner of what 3 contractors can sell by region for the South**  **4 or the Southwest because it's got a number 5 less than 14.**  **6 It's legitimate if it has the 7 highest sales volume tested combination that**  **8 means 14 so we can sell it. You can't prove 9 it with this document, with this label, to a**  **10 contractor to a homeowner that that's a 11 legitimate sale. That's something people**  **12 should know. 13 MEMBER BALLO: Well, I think that**  **14 the label, though, says, directs whoever's 15 looking at it to go to the website and punch**  **16 in the numbers -- 17 MEMBER ROCKY: But what they're**  **18 used to today is the contractor looks at that 19 and says if that was less than 12, less than**  **20 13 I can't sell that today. Next January, if 21 it's less than 14, I can't sell that in the**  **22 South or the Southwest.**

### Page 347

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: And this is**  **2 Dave with Allied. The problem's going to be**  **3 where it's going to get more confusing. I can**  **4 also, from a theoretical standpoint, I can**  **5 take a 13-SEER product with a combination of**  **6 indoor match and it's going to go over 14.**  **7 And why can't I buy that? And that's in**  **8 conflict with what --**  **9 MEMBER ROCKY: FTC says why not,**  **10 DOE says that's not valid.**  **11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Correct.**  **12 MEMBER MYERS: So it's really the**  **13 least efficient. The least -- so we need --**  **14 MEMBER ROCKY: It's the least**  **15 efficient, that's what you're saying?**  **16 MEMBER NOLL: The least efficient**  **17 combination needs to be the regional minimum.**  **18 MEMBER MYERS: No.**  **19 MEMBER NOLL: Well why?**  **20 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **21 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: I don't think**  **22 we're in disagreement with you necessarily.** 

### Page 348

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 It's just not what we have.**  **2 MEMBER NOLL: No, but I saying**  **3 that would solve a lot of, and by and large**  **4 mitigate a lot of harm, potentially, if the**  **5 least efficient combination met the minimum**  **6 standard for that region.**  **7 MEMBER CLARK: And I think it**  **8 would be, in today's environment, to your**  **9 point, agreeing with what you just said, it's**  **10 pretty straightforward. It's highest sales**  **11 volume tested combination that's this. You go**  **12 to the FTC tag, it says that same thing. It's**  **13 like this is pretty clear.**  **14 Whereas what we're looking at in**  **15 the future is the highest sales volume tested**  **16 combination is going to say this, 14-SEER,**  **17 let's say in this example. But you could go**  **18 to the FTC tag and they could have a range**  **19 that spans anything from below 14 to something**  **20 way above 14. And so you don't get that**  **21 clarity that we have today.**  **22 MEMBER NOLL: It actually gives** 

### Page 349

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 customers information that says that there is**  **2 a less efficient combination for that unit.**  **3 MEMBER CLARK: Yes.**  **4 MEMBER NOLL: So you don't want to**  **5 take that information away unless you were to**  **6 change --**  **7 MEMBER PORTER: That's the case on**  **8 every unit though, that we can make it less**  **9 efficient.**  **10 MEMBER HOURAHAN: Well contractors**  **11 do that every day.**  **12 MEMBER PORTER: I know.**  **13 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **14 MEMBER CLARK: I know.**  **15 MR. EISNER: I'm talking about**  **16 from an enforcement kind of standpoint. Today**  **17 it's pretty wind up. You can go to Drummary's**  **18 and it has field volume test combinations and**  **19 you go to the FTC tag, it says the same exact**  **20 thing. Then you say okay.**  **21 MEMBER PORTER: I know.**  **22 MR. EISNER: It could clear up the** 

### Page 350

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 ambiguity.**  **2 MEMBER MEYERS: Does your highest**  **3 sales volume tested combination need to be**  **4 your least efficient combination?**  **5 MEMBER CLARK: No.**  **6 MEMBER MEYERS: Why?**  **7 MEMBER CLARK: It has to be the**  **8 one you think is your, the coil and outdoor**  **9 unit and indoor unit that you think is going**  **10 to provide the highest number of sales.**  **11 MS. ARMSTRONG: The way I**  **12 understand it today is they may not be and**  **13 likely are not to be one and the same. In**  **14 other words, highest sales is not necessarily**  **15 your least efficient.**  **16 MEMBER CLARK: Yes, for instance,**  **17 what you might find is, I'll use a 3-ton**  **18 example. A lot of times we have standard coil**  **19 with, let's say. So with a B and a C kind of**  **20 a 17 and 21 inch cabinet you're going to get**  **21 the 14-SEER.**  **22 You know there's some people out** 

### Page 351

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that up North that have no, they have their**  **2 A-width. And so you rate it with that A-width**  **3 coil.**  **4 And so instead of getting 14 like**  **5 you did with the B -- you know, the 14-inch**  **6 coil doesn't get the same as a 17 or the 21.**  **7 The 17 and 21, let's say get 14.**  **8 But the really narrow one, I**  **9 believe that's 13.7, but up North that's cool.**  **10 They want to put it on top of B cabinet first**  **11 because they have high heat and low cooling**  **12 applications.**  **13 MEMBER MEYERS: Now here's where**  **14 you're losing me. 14-SEER is the minimum in**  **15 the South.**  **16 MEMBER CLARK: Right.**  **17 MEMBER MEYERS: So why should you**  **18 be able to put a range on a unit that you**  **19 certified as your highest sales volume tested**  **20 combination for the South, why should that**  **21 range be able to go below 14?**  **22 It's like today we can't put** 

### Page 352

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 anything lower than 13 because that is the**  **2 minimum allowed.**  **3 MEMBER CLARK: Because we have**  **4 this thing called the North, that that unit**  **5 should be able to be sold.**  **6 MEMBER EISNER: And it may be a**  **7 rating less than --**  **8 MEMBER MEYERS: That's fine, but**  **9 --**  **10 MEMBER PORTER: Karen, can I play**  **11 Devil's Advocate on that? So as a**  **12 manufacturer I come up with the unit. And I**  **13 just want to go one unit and I can make the**  **14 minimum get to 14 and it's also legal. So I**  **15 want that range in that 13.**  **16 MEMBER WHITE: Can you speak up?**  **17 MEMBER MEYERS: I know that maybe**  **18 having a fall after the range that you show --**  **19 MEMBER PORTER: Right.**  **20 MEMBER MEYERS: And it's based**  **21 upon how it might be installed.**  **22 MEMBER PORTER: Right.** 

### Page 353

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER MEYERS: I'm talking about**  **2 labeling a compliant unit. I mean, we can't**  **3 drive up, you know. A lot of times units are**  **4 installed where the coil's not changed.**  **5 Lots of times things got changed**  **6 on the unit and it's not installed for HRI**  **7 test conditions so that rating is just a**  **8 oranges to oranges comparison.**  **9 MEMBER CLARK: But to that point,**  **10 Karen, I mean, and what Dave's saying. This**  **11 is Gary from Rheem again -- or, Gary.**  **12 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **13 MEMBER CLARK: But going back to**  **14 this single point, I would still buy and test**  **15 the combination that would kind of cure that.**  **16 It would save --**  **17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Where would**  **18 you install that?**  **19 MEMBER MEYERS: That's what I**  **20 want.**  **21 MEMBER BALLO: Yes, but that's not**  **22 really giving consumers accurate information** 

### Page 354

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 because they're not going to necessarily get**  **2 that form, and that's suggesting that they**  **3 are.**  **4 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: The current --**  **5 and this is Dave from Allied -- the current**  **6 EnergyGuide label shows a band of the width of**  **7 the industry. Okay, and with the addition of**  **8 this new label, and this is just talking out**  **9 loud here for a few moments.**  **10 But with the addition of this**  **11 range that's specific for that unit, okay,**  **12 you're saying here's the range for the**  **13 industry. Here's the range for this unit.**  **14 Well that range for that specific unit is**  **15 already in that bottom bar.**  **16 And you could send them to a HRI**  **17 directory or whatever and get the specific**  **18 rating for that unit and still the information**  **19 on the label is wrong.**  **20 The single point, you know, and**  **21 again I'm just proposing this for discussion,**  **22 just I think takes away some of the confusion,** 

### Page 355

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 some areas where it may be misleading and**  **2 probably helps in an enforcement situation.**  **3 MEMBER BALLO: So then I guess my**  **4 concern is that if you take away that range**  **5 you're also taking away the incentive that's**  **6 going to spur that consumer or homeowner or**  **7 whatever to actually go to the website because**  **8 it's suggesting that, well, you know, my**  **9 contractor didn't say I had some sort of**  **10 strange weird coil so I'm just going to assume**  **11 that I got the one on here that's shown on the**  **12 range.**  **13 MR. HURST: So Tim, what do you,**  **14 this, what do you think your consumer's going**  **15 to do in either scenario? You said it**  **16 discourages them from going to the website.**  **17 What do you think consumers actually do? What**  **18 would their behavior be in either scenario?**  **19 MEMBER BALLO: Well, I agree, most**  **20 of the time the consumers are not going to do**  **21 anything. But to the extent --**  **22 MR. HURST: But if they did?** 

### Page 356

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER BALLO: --- if they go to**  **2 the website they're going to punch in the**  **3 bottom numbers and get what should be their**  **4 SEER rating for their installed combination.**  **5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So can I ask a**  **6 question? This is not speaking on behalf of**  **7 the Department or the Department's policies.**  **8 I'm just trying to understand Karen's kind of**  **9 ask.**  **10 Is you ask that if you require**  **11 least efficient meet the standard then you**  **12 invalidate all ratings below that standard.**  **13 In other words, it wouldn't be a valid**  **14 certified combination below the 14-SEER model.**  **15 That's how I translate your ask. Is that what**  **16 you're asking for?**  **17 Because, in other words, then you**  **18 would have no range and then you would have no**  **19 certified rating and then you could not ---**  **20 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Ashley, this**  **21 is Dave with Allied. But in the South, I**  **22 agree, but when you're operating in the North** 

### Page 357

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 --**  **2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. I'm**  **3 trying to understand exactly what the ask is.**  **4 MEMBER MEYERS: I want another**  **5 energy guideline for my ask is that we have --**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay, what kind of**  **7 energy guideline would --**  **8 MEMBER MEYERS: -- the systems in**  **9 the North where it says the least efficient is**  **10 14.0.**  **11 MEMBER ROCKY: You mean 13. South**  **12 is 14.**  **13 MEMBER MEYERS: Oh, for the South.**  **14 I want this to remain as it is for the South.**  **15 I want another one for split systems for --**  **16 MEMBER ROCKY: The North. You**  **17 want two.**  **18 MEMBER MEYERS: I want two. This**  **19 one is fine for the North. I want another one**  **20 for the South where this least efficient**  **21 number says 14.0.**  **22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you don't think** 

### Page 358

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 that's a very valid rating.**  **2 MEMBER MEYERS: For enforcement**  **3 purposes, to make sure that we are only, that**  **4 the, you know, the majority of all your units**  **5 being shipped in the South, you have a 14-SEER**  **6 minimum value. This 13 becomes a 14.**  **7 That's going to give you the best**  **8 assurance, it's going to be an easy look for**  **9 the good contractor. I mean, these are on the**  **10 outside of the units. They're on the boxes.**  **11 Now we have to put them on the**  **12 boxes. So it's an easy way for the good**  **13 contractor to say that's not a valid system.**  **14 MEMBER WHITE: And the homeowners**  **15 see that.**  **16 MEMBER MEYERS: And the homeowners**  **17 see it.**  **18 MEMBER WHITE: I mean, I think the**  **19 drive here is to find a magic bullet that**  **20 makes essentially a North applied to South.**  **21 MEMBER EISNER: Well, then there's**  **22 no confusion. Well, wait a minute. Well,** 

### Page 359

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 maybe a North to the South product that -- not**  **2 with South, with Northern -- I think doing**  **3 what Karen suggests doesn't preclude us from**  **4 doing what Gary mentioned about, still rating**  **5 it with an undersized coil.**  **6 You saw the rating in the**  **7 directory. I don't know why you couldn't.**  **8 It's legal. It would still be 13.2 or**  **9 whatever. But that label here for the South**  **10 would say 14, as long as what he's suggesting**  **11 didn't preclude that and I don't think it**  **12 would, that would be fine.**  **13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Essentially you're**  **14 asking, I'm interpreting, but essentially it**  **15 seems to me what you're asking for with**  **16 several people were also the associations for**  **17 the North and also in terms of the models**  **18 would be different.**  **19 And the reason I say that is**  **20 because you're differentiating ranges, right?**  **21 Forget an outdoor unit that has a**  **22 range of indoor units. It may have highest** 

### Page 360

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 sales volume tested combination somewhere in**  **2 the middle. It can go below or above.**  **3 You're asking -- it may span the**  **4 14 level. You're saying we want to**  **5 differentiate those that -- for the North you**  **6 want them all. That's fine. But for the**  **7 South, you want to say no, right, that those**  **8 ones don't count, that this is my model line**  **9 for the South. And this is only the valid**  **10 model line and it starts at a minimum of 14.**  **11 Is that the ask?**  **12 MEMBER MEYERS: That's the ask.**  **13 MEMBER SACHS: In the spirit of --**  **14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And that --**  **15 you, and just to say that, that may not align**  **16 with your highest sales volume tested**  **17 combination. It could be below, it could be**  **18 higher, it could be right in line with -- it**  **19 sometimes it may align because of the way you**  **20 design your products is what I heard. But it**  **21 may not.**  **22 So you want your least efficient** 

### Page 361

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 representation for the South to be lined up**  **2 with the minimum standard. Is that the ask?**  **3 MEMBER MEYERS: I think that --**  **4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Am I right?**  **5 MEMBER SACHS: I think**  **6 representation is the key word there.**  **7 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **8 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's how you**  **9 sort it out with the client.**  **10 MEMBER MYERS: Okay, the standard**  **11 to deal with, I think the ask is --**  **12 MEMBER CLARK: It's all in the**  **13 spirit of easing, simplifying the enforcement,**  **14 like what Karen says.**  **15 MEMBER MEYERS: Right. The**  **16 enforcement, that tells us what we can and**  **17 cannot sell to our customers.**  **18 MEMBER CLARK: Yes that's right.**  **19 MEMBER MYERS: I can't ship this**  **20 unit to you. I can ship this unit to you.**  **21 But I cannot ship this to you.**  **22 MS. BARHYDT: So if I'm** 

### Page 362

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understanding correctly, you're saying I have**  **2 one model of condensing units. I have two**  **3 versions of the label. One version of the**  **4 label goes to the North and one version of the**  **5 label goes to the South.**  **6 MEMBER MEYERS: No, I've got two**  **7 lines of condensing units.**  **8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, but it's the**  **9 same top brand.**  **10 MEMBER CLARK: Could be.**  **11 MEMBER MEYERS: Could be.**  **12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, for this**  **13 purpose it is.**  **14 MEMBER CLARK: Yes.**  **15 MS. BARHYDT: So do both of those**  **16 have certified ratings with coils that are**  **17 below 14 and I'm just changing what I'm**  **18 putting on the label?**  **19 MR. HURST: No. One has a**  **20 certified rating of 14. One has a certified**  **21 minimum of 13.**  **22 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so you're** 

### Page 363

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 actually -- potentially -- to the extent **2 previously you would certify that as a single 3 model you would then be willing to certify**  **4 them as separate models? One that's -- 5 MR. HURST: Yes, I think so .**  **6 MS. ARMSTRONG: One that's only 7 available --**  **8 (Simultaneous Speaking) 9 MR. HURST: In practicality**  **10 actually --- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I can't. But to**  **12 the extent that they would allow you to do 13 that today, you were saying you'd be willing**  **14 to. Your ask is you'd be willing to say 15 they're definitely different?**  **16 MEMBER MEYERS: The only way it 17 can be the same model is if it hit 14, then**  **18 went to 13. Could be there. 19 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. I mean, 21 you will acknowledge everybody's allowing you**  **22 to do that today?**

### Page 364

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER MEYERS: Right. So.**  **2 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **3 MR. HURST: Well, and coming, of**  **4 course, from a standpoint of say a warehouse,**  **5 a distributor, even a contractor running it**  **6 you can spot non-compliant equipment fairly**  **7 quickly if there's no ambiguity on the label.**  **8 And so, Tim, if you want to walk**  **9 through every contractor with binoculars --**  **10 MEMBER BALLO: Like I said,**  **11 they're labeled red with their --**  **12 MEMBER PORTER: Well, this is the**  **13 border for picking purposes as well. See we**  **14 have a central distribution center that's**  **15 going to feed North and South.**  **16 MALE PARTICIPANT: We're doing the**  **17 same.**  **18 MEMBER PORTER: So, I mean,**  **19 labeling's key for us and easier to**  **20 communicate the people that are maybe picking**  **21 up product that aren't necessarily as well**  **22 trained as we are, I guess.** 

### Page 365

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 I still haven't quite figured this**  **2 out, but I think we're in -- I mean, I think**  **3 it would, right, Dave, I mean, it's going to**  **4 be two bottles, possibly two bottles. Right?**  **5 So I don't see a problem. I think that's --**  **6 Karen's stumbled on something quite easily.**  **7 MEMBER SACHS: More than a decade**  **8 ago, we were starting to look at furnace fans**  **9 and one of the things we discovered that there**  **10 families of models that looked very similar**  **11 but had very different whatever it was that we**  **12 were using as indexes of fan energy use.**  **13 And the explanation that**  **14 eventually evolved, and I'm asking if this was**  **15 really true or it's still true was that, in**  **16 fact, the manufacturers sensibly had two**  **17 similar models with different fans sizes.**  **18 The one with the larger fan per**  **19 BTU of heating capacity was designed for a**  **20 Southern application where the evaporator coil**  **21 was typically larger and vice versa. So it**  **22 seems to me that without a regulatory context,** 

### Page 366

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 if that's true we already have a dueling of**  **2 regional models to some extent informally in**  **3 the market today.**  **4 But for instance, it is entirely**  **5 separate from the condensing versus**  **6 non-condensing. So in that sense, if the**  **7 market has moved in that direction which**  **8 suggests that this dual model strategy that**  **9 I'm hearing about from Karen's suggestion**  **10 would seem like it's not unduly burdensome and**  **11 seemed like it would be something that could**  **12 be very helpful.**  **13 There may be some gaps in my logic**  **14 but --**  **15 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: This is Dave**  **16 from Allied. And I probably made a refresher**  **17 so please chime in. But there are models that**  **18 are specifically designed at 13-SEER and 14 or**  **19 to 14.5 in the market today with watches here**  **20 in the future around we thought it was where**  **21 it was going to be.**  **22 So those are already truncated.** 

### Page 367

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 Now the range of efficiency that maybe we**  **2 thought we could put on the labels for those**  **3 products, this decision may have an impact on.**  **4 But those products, are already --**  **5 MEMBER SACHS: So the dual model,**  **6 dual label is in the pipeline. Separation of**  **7 models, and there's Southern label for the**  **8 Southern model and a Northern label for the**  **9 Northern model doesn't sound like a huge**  **10 change in business practice.**  **11 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: No, as long as**  **12 we aren't adding additional pipes.**  **13 MEMBER CLARK: Yes, I guess the**  **14 presumption would be is if a unit has a**  **15 Southern label and it would be compliant in**  **16 the North.**  **17 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: Yes, we need**  **18 to make sure that that's quota.**  **19 MEMBER CLARK: Yes, so still just**  **20 one lane on a given --**  **21 MEMBER SACHS: On a given**  **22 pipeline, yes.** 

### Page 368

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER WINNINGHAM: So you could**  **2 call that a national model and a Northern only**  **3 model. It's 14 or above it can be sold**  **4 anywhere in the country. It's 13 to 14 it can**  **5 only be sold in the North.**  **6 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **7 MR. EISNER: So have we exhausted**  **8 this subject?**  **9 MEMBER SACHS: Yes, and the only**  **10 people who aren't here are the ones who**  **11 matter.**  **12 MR. EISNER: It's 4 o'clock. Do**  **13 we want to get on to another issue?**  **14 MEMBER SACHS: No.**  **15 MR. EISNER: We're not as far as I**  **16 thought we would be today.**  **17 MR. RAWALD: Maybe we could see if**  **18 we have anything that we need to work on.**  **19 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **20 MEMBER SACHS: We thought that**  **21 we'd go around and ask different stakeholders**  **22 what they wanted to get out of this. It may** 

### Page 369

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 be pretty obvious now from the conversation.**  **2 I'd certainly be willing to close out**  **3 the day with 30 seconds of what I think.**  **4 MR. RAWALD: Did everyone hear?**  **5 Charlie's volunteered to give, he has a**  **6 30-second answer to the question yesterday, as**  **7 proposed by Jon Melchi about what the**  **8 advocates would want out of this and what it's**  **9 helpful for us to do.**  **10 MEMBER SACHS: Do we want to hear**  **11 from each group? What does the contractor**  **12 need, what does the homeowner need? Or do we**  **13 just want to hear from the advocates right**  **14 now?**  **15 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **16 MR. EISNER: All right, let's get**  **17 that sheet up so we can add that to the list**  **18 too.**  **19 MEMBER SACHS: I think the things**  **20 that, the thing that really drives the**  **21 advocates on the efficiency and environmental**  **22 side which doesn't overlap completely with** 

### Page 370

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 consumer side is national energy savings.**  **2 And I think we've demonstrated in**  **3 things like the small level or high velocity**  **4 that we're not terribly worried about 100**  **5 percent of their cases where, in that case it**  **6 was niche product. In this case, and you'll**  **7 turn your ears off, Doug, if we only get 98**  **8 percent compliance instead of 100 percent.**  **9 But we're not going to lose a lot**  **10 of sleep because to us something which is**  **11 acceptable and simple and fits into the**  **12 business models with the minimum disruption is**  **13 also very important. Things which are too**  **14 much of a burden will get away with other**  **15 efforts and other venues such as quality**  **16 installation.**  **17 So I think this is why our**  **18 organization in particular has been broadly**  **19 supportive of this kind of effort to strive**  **20 towards something which can build on what**  **21 we're doing is simple and can be enforced well**  **22 enough and simply enough that it maintains its** 

### Page 371

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 credibility in the market.**  **2 Now I think Tim and Elizabeth**  **3 ought to have the opportunity to say, Harvey,**  **4 you're full of it in terms of my organization.**  **5 But that would be where we come from in terms**  **6 of the objectives we've been trying to get to.**  **7 MEMBER NOLL: This is Elizabeth.**  **8 I would agree generously to what Harvey said.**  **9 I do think the ability to enact the**  **10 enforcement that word just carries a lot of**  **11 weight, I think in a lot of people's mind.**  **12 But the ability to at least know what level of**  **13 compliance we're meeting.**  **14 And, if not, retroactively,**  **15 pro-actively be able to modify and evolve.**  **16 And I think Harvey mentioned yesterday that**  **17 the significant amount of work that was done**  **18 on the waiver mechanism for furnaces.**  **19 And I think while we're not**  **20 talking about waivers in this instance some of**  **21 the things that came to the table were like**  **22 abuse and fraud and how might you go about** 

### Page 372

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 understanding that.**  **2 And also, you know, the ability to**  **3 review and on what cycle and how often do you**  **4 assess a program and be able to modify it in**  **5 a timely manner as opposed to on a six or**  **6 ten-year basis kind of thing so that you're**  **7 identifying loopholes or gaps. I mean, we all**  **8 can't predict the future.**  **9 So that's kind of where**  **10 enforcement is meaningful to us in that we**  **11 able to at least understand what's happening**  **12 and then react appropriately.**  **13 MEMBER BALLO: So I guess the only**  **14 thing I'll add is I sort of agree with that**  **15 point that the real key for us is a certain**  **16 amount of transparency. Enough transparency**  **17 that will allow us to get to the 98 percent**  **18 that will let 98 percent compliance level that**  **19 will let Harvey sleep at night.**  **20 Without getting information --**  **21 we're not going to be able to get access to**  **22 information that you all don't feel** 

### Page 373

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. 

### 1 comfortable giving out. I mean, this is a **2 20-some person process and you all will not 3 agree to that so that's something we have to**  **4 live with. 5 But that said, what level of**  **6 information about the status of stuff that's 7 going out into the market can we get out to**  **8 the public, out to consumers so that there is 9 at least the general sense that compliance is**  **10 mostly there for stuff that's getting 11 installed.**  **12 And the only other thing I'll add 13 is that as I've gotten labeling work more in**  **14 the last couple years that's another thing 15 that I really hope we can influence through**  **16 this process, is the label content and also 17 the, what we can do to encourage consumers,**  **18 homeowners to get more educated about this 19 equipment and the actual efficiency they're**  **20 getting. 21 Because, you know, as an**  **22 environmental advocate it's very easy for me**

### Page 374

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 to be upset about stuff not meeting DOE levels**  **2 and about power plant emissions that result**  **3 from that. But there's no greater advocate**  **4 for ensuring compliance than an irate**  **5 homeowner who didn't get the efficient unit**  **6 that he thought he was paying for, so.**  **7 MR. EISNER: Any other comments?**  **8 Questions? So you've already to satisfy the**  **9 advocates?**  **10 MR. RAWALD: I guess in changing**  **11 things up for next week, something like**  **12 something that made me really interested in**  **13 what's --**  **14 MR. EISNER: Next week?**  **15 MR. RAWALD: Well, not next week.**  **16 Two weeks from now or our next meeting was the**  **17 role of the distributor vis a vis both their**  **18 working with their partners, their**  **19 contractors, and their working with the**  **20 manufacturer.**  **21 So I don't know if, Steve, if you**  **22 and John can work maybe and give us some sort** 

### Page 375

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 of information for that. That'd be really**  **2 helpful for me. I don't know if for other**  **3 folks, kind of understanding your role in the**  **4 process and kind of that, what the pressure**  **5 you feel from the installers today. I think**  **6 that'd be very helpful for me to understand**  **7 better.**  **8 Does that make sense? You're**  **9 looking at me like dead body.**  **10 MEMBER PORTER: No, just kind of**  **11 like restate it again for me. You just want**  **12 to know our role or on the labeling --**  **13 MR. RAWALD: And the pressure that**  **14 you folks feel in the process and what you can**  **15 bring to bear. And how you play into this in**  **16 making sure that there's compliance with the**  **17 standard, how do you see your role.**  **18 Because you folks are closer to**  **19 what happens in the manufacturing. And so how**  **20 do you work with the manufacturers and how do**  **21 you work with the installers. So where do you**  **22 fit into that process and how we could best** 

### Page 376

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 work with you guys to make it all work**  **2 together.**  **3 MEMBER PORTER: Okay. So at our**  **4 next meeting.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: No, no, no. I wanted**  **6 to change the subject so --**  **7 MEMBER PORTER: Yes, tell me about**  **8 our next meeting.**  **9 MEMBER FERNSTROM: We'll be a day**  **10 late on that one so I doubt I'll be here for**  **11 the 26th. I don't think I can get in on the**  **12 26th. I'll leave it for the 27th, 28th.**  **13 MR. RAWALD: Of course. If you can**  **14 tell John that. We're going to ask him to**  **15 talk. So you want John to do it or do you**  **16 want to?**  **17 MEMBER PORTER: I might. I'll**  **18 see.**  **19 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **20 MEMBER FERNSTRROM: I'll see what**  **21 I can do. But I want to end on that request.**  **22 MR. RAWALD: That'd be great.** 

### Page 377

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER CLARK: Okay, the crazy**  **2 idea for the -- This is Gary from Goodman --**  **3 crazy idea for the energy guide. Right now**  **4 it's got two kind of down triangles that show**  **5 the range. If they had a different symbol**  **6 that was for the highest sales volume tested**  **7 combination so you knew where that was.**  **8 MR. RAWALD: So you want to add**  **9 another number.**  **10 MEMBER CLARK: No, no,**  **11 MR. RAWALD: Another mark.**  **12 MEMBER CLARK: A mark. Okay,**  **13 that's right. So in this example it's 13 but**  **14 14.2 which, in all likelihood, the highest**  **15 sales volume tested combination is 13. But**  **16 the 13 little down triangle looks exactly like**  **17 the 14.2 so maybe at the -- maybe it was open,**  **18 an open triangle instead of a closed triangle.**  **19 And if you had a range, let's say**  **20 we were talking about these higher efficiency**  **21 products that were from, let's say the testing**  **22 combination was 14-SEER but the range of** 

### Page 378

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 ratings was between 14.5 and 15. You would**  **2 show 13.5 to 15 with the closed triangles and**  **3 you'd have the open triangle at 14-SEER that**  **4 would be the HSB's VTC.**  **5 MR. RAWALD: So this would be in**  **6 lieu of Karen's ask for the label?**  **7 MEMBER CLARK: Yes. That's the**  **8 only time I'm talking about the FTC changing**  **9 their label. I realize that this is going to**  **10 blow their minds. I'm thinking that this is**  **11 a much, kind of a tweak to what they've done**  **12 versus let's roll back through our entire rule**  **13 making process. So just a crazy idea, so.**  **14 MEMBER PORTER: Gary?**  **15 MEMBER FERNSTROM: I explained how**  **16 that's easier though if they still allow the**  **17 range and we just have a starting point.**  **18 Because to me it just sounded more confusing,**  **19 but I think the starting point minimum still**  **20 allows the range.**  **21 MEMBER CLARK: I think where the**  **22 FT -- if in fact you want to have ratings for** 

### Page 379

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 a given unit that's below the full 15-SEER**  **2 then I think we're going to run into trouble**  **3 if it's not been noted on the FTC label.**  **4 I think that that would be -- that**  **5 would blow their minds because, in fact,**  **6 homeowners could buy a product where it was,**  **7 in fact done here on the range instead of**  **8 starting here en route. And it would be**  **9 compliant, I mean, legally acceptable. I**  **10 mean, it wouldn't be breaking any laws, so.**  **11 MEMBER SACHS: There was -- this**  **12 is Harvey. And I hear what I don't hear is a**  **13 lot of input from what we call the human**  **14 factors people. And you all call them**  **15 marketers.**  **16 I think if we're going to get**  **17 serious in talking to the FTC we're going to**  **18 have to bring in some of these people who have**  **19 a better feeling for how to figure out how**  **20 contractors use the label and how consumers**  **21 understand that label.**  **22 I could never build the interface** 

### Page 380

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 for a program on the computer or even a**  **2 toaster. And I think this is an analogous**  **3 problem. If we're going to have to to the FTC**  **4 I'd like to go with having talked to some**  **5 experts. We have a few in our shop. I know**  **6 you all have many more through the agencies in**  **7 your shops.**  **8 MEMBER DORIA: This is Jordan.**  **9 Just to maybe contact people and try to get**  **10 them together, I think whether it's Gary's or**  **11 they have Karen's, I mean, fundamentally,**  **12 we're still talking about FTC making some**  **13 change here, right, as I understand it. No?**  **14 So --**  **15 MR. EISNER: Well, would Karen's**  **16 idea by a change or just simply a new model**  **17 number with a different number?**  **18 MEMBER SACHS: No, it's a change**  **19 because it's going to mean --**  **20 (Simultaneous speaking)**  **21 MEMBER CLARK: Okay, the bottom**  **22 range.** 

### Page 381

202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **1 MEMBER SACHS: The bottom range**  **2 would simply be removed because it's no longer**  **3 relevant, just like 13. Anything -- it**  **4 doesn't show anything below 13 today. So that**  **5 national model doesn't really show that.**  **6 MR. EISNER: Anything else anybody**  **7 wants to discuss today? Thank you everybody.**  **8 Okay. You're all dismissed. Class dismissed.**  **9 (Whereupon, the meeting in the**  **10 above-entitled matter was concluded at 4:27**  **11 p.m.)**  **12 13**  **14 15**  **16 17**  **18 19**  **20 21**  **22**202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 382** A $10292:16 $10,000232:20 $20095:19 96:1,6 $200,000 38:3 $500 139:11 A-width 351:2,2 a.m 1:9 4:2 113:16 113:17 192:16 A/C 117:12,14 ABC 194:9,9,11

208:16 230:14,15 ABC's208:18 abide274:10,20

276:15 abiding273:21

276:13 ability 6:21 84:1,8 108:12 122:4,18 122:21 166:5 194:7,8 197:22 208:22 254:17 319:16 371:9,12 372:2 able29:15 30:21

61:13 77:11 93:17 107:13 111:18 115:5 118:18 128:18,22 135:13 137:22 143:22 158:4 245:14 267:22 336:5 338:6 351:18,21 352:5 371:15 372:4,11,21 above-entitled 113:15 192:15 381:10 absolutely 24:1

36:19 42:1 52:16 70:22 71:1 92:8 170:10 171:11 257:15 abuse 371:22 ACCA2:17 14:16

24:20 33:18 66:5 78:6 81:15 84:17 139:20 156:18 199:19 201:16 216:10 235:11 254:8 255:18,18 259:9 265:19 267:15 283:15 293:18 320:6 acceptable 370:11

379:9 accepting 144:5 access 372:21 accompanying

307:6 accomplish 113:3 accord 177:15 accounting226:21 accounts 269:9 accreditation 89:6

89:11 accredited 88:22 accurate202:9,10

321:17 340:15 353:22 ACEEE22:22 achieve 35:2 163:19 176:3 254:21 255:6 273:1 318:7 achieved 12:9 achieves 332:7 achieving281:1 acknowledge

363:21 acknowledging 169:15 act6:20 7:2 97:5,7 100:2 102:7,10 103:9,16,18,20 104:8,14 106:12 191:17 acting46:4 105:4 action47:14,19

48:2,8 87:12 109:2 146:22 147:5,21 148:11 actions47:2 280:8 activated 181:4 active71:22 actively 158:16 activities 94:6 182:5 activity 147:4 148:2 150:8 acts75:18 76:2

95:17 96:18,19 97:18 100:22 101:5 actual 33:6 68:15

70:7 89:10 131:11 146:5 147:4 149:12 252:13 373:19 ad 303:10 adapters 103:10 add21:10 41:21

77:9,15 142:1 155:20 186:9 189:10 196:10 204:6 219:18 234:5 264:11 282:6 292:12 295:14 297:10 369:17 372:14 373:12 377:8 add-on 170:19 added21:2 99:3 116:7 152:8 207:9 adding 34:9 234:12

282:2 367:12 addition202:16

354:7,10 additional76:14 118:13 216:3 367:12 Additions 210:8 address 252:18

253:7 312:17 338:4,6,20 340:10 340:14,15,20 341:2 addressed 338:5 adds 218:20 adequate91:14

322:12 adequately 322:3,9 adjusted 343:3 administrative

52:20 214:2 advantage 139:14 advertise 80:8

291:3,4 advisory 18:19 advocacy 327:9 advocate 352:11

373:22 374:3 advocates 369:8,13

369:21 374:9 advocating 180:18 181:7 affect 122:3 143:13 145:9,21 152:19 affirmatively 25:11 affirming 32:5 afford 135:14 138:4,4 189:19 201:1 210:16 214:3 264:3 affordable 136:22 afternoon 61:14,16

289:21 294:4 agencies 380:6 agency 109:2 134:3

250:19 327:4 328:12 329:4 agenda295:19 agent90:3 agents 109:22 aggregated 285:11 aggressive29:18

38:1 agnostic79:20 139:21 ago26:15 135:8 140:12 159:7 197:11 269:11,12 365:8 agree 12:17 23:18

24:1 36:21 47:1 85:14 112:4 125:9 129:5,7 173:16 275:7 276:18 321:15 334:14 337:3 340:3 345:5 345:11 355:19 356:22 371:8 372:14 373:3 agreeable271:16 agreed44:21 47:10

51:17 52:22 53:12 agreeing 348:9 agreement46:3

51:18 52:22 53:3 53:19 125:18 132:16 agrees 13:12 162:18 AHB 282:14 ahead46:22 47:7

53:7 56:6 61:8 95:6,7 281:13 AHI296:20 AHRI2:8 12:22

22:6,9 31:13,20 31:21 32:9,10,12 32:17,18 58:19 71:10,12,12 72:1 78:16 108:7 130:21 137:8 157:12 159:10 160:2 182:5 184:2 199:20 230:7 AHRI's 22:13,17

69:21 228:18 ain't 124:4 air 1:16 2:4 6:13

7:11,14 8:5 17:10 20:3,14 39:3 45:18,19 60:5 69:9,13 70:3,10 73:20,20 74:1 109:17 114:19 115:14 116:16 117:1,4 128:10 130:13 133:5 138:1 160:5 161:12,14,18 166:9,11 167:7,9 168:7 169:2202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 383** 170:22 173:13,15 175:14,15,20 176:5,12 189:10 189:10 193:11 197:3,8 202:1 206:4 209:4 213:4 223:3,7 231:15,17 238:9,12,22 242:5 242:21 247:10,12 260:20 261:9 272:1 283:14,17 283:19 287:22 288:5 289:16,22 306:21 310:3 315:5,10 317:4,12 319:3 326:20 335:22 337:18 Air-Conditioning

2:2 airport234:17 align 360:15,19 alike 262:19 alive 149:8 200:13

200:14,14 allege 322:14 alleged 149:10 Allied 2:4 157:16 158:7 187:6 278:10 296:12 306:10 308:18 320:17 339:1 347:2 354:5 356:21 366:16 allocation 119:8 allow 69:9 71:8

78:8 81:16 88:17 102:8 115:5 180:9 180:14 240:7 293:7 297:15 308:2,4 327:11 363:12 372:17 378:16 allowed95:18 119:10 307:15 352:2 allowing 363:21 allows 34:14 88:16 178:12 378:20 alluded 188:11

235:15 altered 69:10 alternate 230:20,20 alternative 69:7

78:9 amalgam259:22 ambiguity 178:9

350:1 364:7 ambiguous 341:22 amenable212:16 amended7:1 15:2

50:21 America 1:17 American2:1 7:8 amortize266:20 amount28:9 65:10

70:4 189:11 238:16 273:19 291:7 325:22 326:7 337:21 371:17 372:16 amounts 245:5 amplify 179:21 AMRANE2:8 10:18,20 11:2,4 22:8,19 32:13,15 32:21 33:10 73:8 157:11 163:16 295:5,13,17 313:21 323:7 Amy2:2 28:20

83:14 85:18 108:5 108:6 145:10 296:18,20 297:11 331:4 analogize 148:21 analogous 380:2 analogy 13:2 154:9

273:17 274:4 276:7 analysis72:8 100:7 ancillary44:14 and-a-half76:22 and-or315:13

317:7 and/or 109:5 Andy 155:16 ANIRUDDH2:19 announced51:18 annual97:6 264:20 annualy292:7 anomaly29:10 ansi255:18,19 Ansi/ACCA 255:20 answer 15:22 20:19

59:12 60:10,15,18 61:14,15 82:20,21 107:11 114:21 115:7,16 121:13 122:15,20 123:1,5 124:22 144:2 145:8 148:6 149:16,19 150:2 151:5,13 152:16 152:20 160:14 162:14 163:1 164:6 176:19 177:4,6,8 188:11 188:17 214:21 227:6,8 238:4,9 243:5 244:10 251:9 289:8 297:5 299:10,15 302:13 304:5 306:1,11 310:4,11,19 316:3 316:5 317:20 318:3 320:4 336:5 369:6 answered 114:7 121:21 185:10,15 296:13 311:17 312:12 330:9 331:19 answering 185:3

227:5 answers 114:9,11 178:1 227:7 239:20 290:18 296:9 301:19 302:1,4 311:2 342:3 anxious 286:1 anybody28:9 32:16 36:17 66:4 85:10 109:11 114:2,15 156:15 186:2 195:4 207:22 249:7 269:16 270:18 277:22 290:22 381:6 anymore53:16

76:4 207:2 341:4 anytime 106:16 anyway 124:17 178:21 274:20 anyways243:6 apartments 245:11 apologize 86:15 110:7 287:9 apparently78:18 appear 108:18 appearing 67:9 appears 110:6,19 appliance 6:19

62:8 90:12 applicable 18:1

50:11 102:14 121:12 application 12:8

321:6 365:20 application-speci...

276:2 applications 119:6 194:6 351:12 applied 358:20 apply25:6 95:3 107:8 174:7 appreciate 113:8 182:9 184:17,22 292:6 apprentice216:14

216:15 apprenticeship

217:1 approach 13:22 16:11 75:13,21 280:4 281:15 282:9,12 approaches 280:6 appropriate 12:15

21:22 90:2 96:9 181:1 210:21 302:17 304:8 appropriately

89:19 100:8 372:12 approval 88:11

89:13 107:6 191:5 191:11,16 approved 69:11,15 approximately 109:16 288:1 area 34:5 35:2 38:9 144:8 215:14,18 215:19 216:1,11 216:13 237:3 275:22 292:12 331:6 areas 19:14 35:5

39:11 117:17 164:8 215:11 241:6 355:1 arem292:3 arguable48:17 arguably 101:4

330:13 argue28:9 108:17 159:17 307:22 308:13 313:8 argument 13:7

65:22 arisen 19:20 Arizona 8:13 Ark283:18 284:4

289:9 arms 261:7 Armstrong2:9

91:4 161:20 162:1 162:4,13 163:2,13 171:4,7,12,21 172:13,21 173:2,7 173:17 174:11,20 174:22 175:4,9 176:21 300:7,13 300:15,19 301:2,6202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 384** 301:11,21 302:21 303:6,14,17,21 306:4,13 307:4,22 308:8,13,22 309:5 309:14 310:6,10 310:20 311:1,11 312:10,19 313:6 313:13 315:2 316:5,17 317:3 318:13,21 319:10 328:2 335:12 336:4 338:3,14 340:1,7,9,13 343:12 344:1,9,13 345:6 350:11 356:5 357:2,6,22 359:13 360:14 361:4,8 362:22 363:6,11,20 arrive209:3 arrow296:7 articulated 10:4 articulating 312:13 as-installed 256:9 Ashley2:9 91:3 162:2,17 163:9 164:3 176:17 177:14 301:4 302:20 303:1 312:6,7,21 332:15 335:17 344:15 356:20 Ashley's 172:19 ASHRAE 199:20 aside 153:10 199:3

238:14 asked 13:19 21:9

22:5 43:6 85:18 88:8 96:16 100:17 164:3 244:3 259:15 263:6 302:4 320:4 326:8 asking43:12 75:9

76:16 81:20 114:5 117:21 153:10 160:2 162:17 172:20 177:4 181:17 192:7 326:8 328:3,10 356:16 359:14,15 360:3 365:14 asks 88:13 aspect 106:18

201:8 291:17 aspects 193:8 199:13 217:11 assemble 15:10

63:4 assembler 13:9 14:19 assembles 13:6 assembling 15:7

68:10 assembly 98:7 assert45:15 assess49:22 53:9

58:15 95:16,18 220:16 372:4 assessed 51:19 assessment 86:7,9

92:22 assignment254:6 associated 269:13 association2:3,14

2:21 7:9 54:14 139:20 199:18 associations 359:16 assume 105:13

230:14 231:20 355:10 assumes 323:4 assuming290:8 assumption 39:2

60:14 153:17 assumptions 297:9 assurance91:14

285:12 358:8 assure23:14 92:5 Atlanta247:10 atomic292:9 attach 209:1 attached 51:9 154:22 attacks 160:15 attempted 95:4 attendance4:9,14 attention78:18

311:6 audit36:10 69:3 auditing 82:2 audits41:7 AUGUST 1:7 authority 16:4

45:15 84:4,11,15 84:17 85:6,16,20 87:12,14 90:10 98:4,20 99:6,21 101:2,6,10 108:14 automating 183:20 available 31:21

32:6 72:14 157:21 184:1,9,10 243:18 269:16 283:8 363:7 avenue249:7 average 126:16 159:11 160:5 267:12 avoid 35:8,9,11 166:11 277:10 325:13 avoiding 125:21 awarding 145:7 aware42:20 108:13

233:2 257:15 296:5 awareness26:14

41:12 43:10,19 axe 137:13 axle 330:12 B B 350:19 351:5,10 back 6:3,4,8 8:9 14:8 16:22 17:7 18:6 20:13 34:16 38:19 41:18,19 43:2 49:13 60:6 69:2 71:1,1 74:7 79:4 80:4 82:18 84:4,6 86:16 91:17 92:10,20 100:6 103:13 107:10 112:5 114:10,12 119:19 121:11 129:14,17 134:11 135:7 139:11 143:6 152:3 154:8,16 155:1,4 160:1,13 176:17 177:17 181:5 184:4,18 192:12 198:22 200:11 211:9 220:14 222:20 225:19 228:12 229:8,10 231:13 234:15 239:19 240:11 241:5,6,21 254:9 258:4 260:10 261:13 283:5 293:4 294:12 299:4,17 301:16 303:7,22 315:3 319:21 327:12 338:21 339:20 340:11,13 353:13 378:12 background 35:19 118:13 159:1 245:13 bad95:11 103:5 133:10 189:13,14 195:13 276:7 278:14 293:11,12 307:3 320:8,15,18 badly 195:14 balance277:15,18 ball 186:5 Ballo 1:12 52:7,11

54:3 73:5 156:7 157:2,5 284:19,20 285:3 346:13 353:21 355:3,19 356:1 364:10 372:13 ballpark 134:11 band 354:6 bar 157:21 333:7 354:15 barely 126:12 Barhydt2:10 84:20

361:22 362:8,12 362:15 barn55:7 barring52:15 base 69:5,16,18

70:6 74:2,3 75:13 139:17 209:15 249:18 335:1 based 14:7 17:12 18:15 62:9 69:6 122:19 163:6 173:12 174:9 263:16 307:4 313:13 318:22 319:9 321:20 324:16 330:5 332:7,14 337:10 337:11 338:1,10 345:22 352:20 baseline 8:7 211:1 basement57:10

203:1 bases 288:17

322:16 bash270:15 basic73:19,21 75:7

82:7 86:6 117:19 214:21 292:8 325:16 basically 8:2 62:10

99:4 187:8 243:9 327:16 basis 37:9 40:9

80:20 81:3,9 98:3 372:6 battle261:17 bear 134:8 296:2

375:15 bearing 137:21 becoming242:12

242:13,15 beg 197:5,9 behalf90:6 356:6 behaving91:15202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 385** behavior26:13 145:7 146:14 151:15 355:18 behaviors 209:19 belabor90:22

93:21 believe 12:5 46:3

91:14 115:10 159:10 185:21 202:19 227:19 280:20 281:2 310:11 334:19 351:9 Bend 193:3 236:22 benefit37:17 172:4 benefits 133:17

217:11 best 16:12 25:2

64:1,13 68:4 128:5 134:10,10 136:12 137:20 152:3 200:18 201:2 204:10 212:7 225:1,9 226:6 241:18 246:13 289:7 305:9 312:17,19 322:6,17 358:7 375:22 bet270:18 bets 159:8 better 38:17 55:5

75:4,20 78:4 95:6 95:8 133:14 134:6 135:12 142:11 143:4 166:2,4 189:8 198:17,18 201:4 202:18 213:1 225:1 229:15 253:4 289:12,14 375:7 379:19 better-best78:10 beyond78:13

87:12 big 35:4 37:1 61:7

61:20 63:22 67:18 97:3 124:8 138:5 138:14 166:19,19 166:22 184:20 205:2,14 215:9,22 238:16,18 245:22 246:8 253:5 264:18 270:17 287:1,18 293:6 big-box 66:13,14

66:17,18 big-box-retailer

66:19 bigger41:16 187:22 188:1 214:11 221:3 224:12 226:22 245:10 280:14,19 biggest 167:4

212:18 260:17 276:14 bill 293:1 billable226:13 billed 207:1 billing226:20 binoculars 364:9 bit6:11 29:10

58:20 63:2 70:11 114:13 115:6 140:18 142:11 145:19 165:22 177:22 204:14 293:3 bite206:2 black277:8 Blackville 283:16 blade 127:10,11 135:17 blah 106:10,10,10 106:11,11 Blain 116:16 blow277:14 378:10

379:5 blower20:15 137:16 141:8 165:3 171:10,14 172:5,17 174:19 board 39:13 136:11 136:14 210:3,6 Bob 249:1 body 375:9 boggling55:15 boiler 15:9 boils 187:9 302:8 Bonneville 34:14

34:16 book214:22 273:4

286:6 boom 136:7 booted 180:14 border286:18

364:13 borrow225:10 boss 262:13 266:7,8

269:5 272:7,11,11 bottles 365:4,4 bottom 17:20 169:4 195:19,20,21 203:19 206:17 212:19 324:4 336:20 354:15 356:3 380:21 381:1 bought206:11

218:2 259:22 261:2 275:1 bound 197:15 box23:3,7 63:22

79:17,18 138:6,21 180:21 201:21 202:2,4 246:15,16 255:9 333:6 boxes 358:10,12 brain54:19,20 brainstorm299:6 brand 63:16,18 110:8 230:21 261:10 362:9 brands 287:20

288:2 bread 136:18 break 62:4 113:9 113:11 117:22 151:4 191:3 205:20 301:7,10 301:12,14 breaking 379:10 Brenda 16:20 Brian 115:18 117:9 brief 106:3 bright263:9,9 bring5:13 47:2

54:10 79:4 93:5 117:5 189:16 225:10 231:14 283:5 286:6 312:2 375:15 379:18 brings 19:19 broad 8:11 16:4

84:7 98:6,21 112:14 193:7 226:10 broader39:17,19

74:17 75:19 97:15 98:4 311:16 broadly43:21 85:9

85:16 99:21 112:9 370:18 broke206:16 brothers 293:6 brought 80:3 137:5 160:19 190:15 229:9 296:4 Bruce 87:22 91:3 Bruce's 90:6,14 brush226:10 Bryan 1:22 130:17 132:1 181:14 190:15 265:7 283:12,13 286:16 287:8 332:10 335:15 BTU 365:19 BTUs 8:18,19,20 buck200:9 bucks 266:8 buddy226:14 budget 189:11 196:17 198:21 290:13,20 291:4 292:8,11 build 119:17 120:1 188:16 307:13,18 370:20 379:22 builders 2:22

240:10 241:5 293:21 building 35:8 36:16

42:16 68:14 builds 63:8 built68:1 bulk 118:19 bullet358:19 bullets 273:19 bumped 307:18 bumper 196:13 bunch204:19

237:3 burden 83:9 132:7 142:1 207:10 218:14 294:8 370:14 burdens 254:12

277:22 burdensome

366:10 bureaucratic 191:12 buried7:17 business4:7,8,13

4:18 111:2,4 193:3,7 201:6 203:5,6,17 204:4 204:9,18 205:11 207:12,21 211:12 212:22 213:16 214:8 215:3,6 219:19 220:19,20 223:11,14 229:15 230:1 237:20 238:5,11 239:2,5 240:12 241:17 252:3,18 253:7 258:21 264:18 265:13 266:3,16 266:18,18 267:4 267:16 268:5,20 268:21,22 269:6,8 269:18 285:21,21202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 386** 367:10 370:12 businesses 205:15

238:7 268:9 butt 133:8 Butte261:22 buy25:3 28:4 64:2

64:14 65:15 93:5 132:3 135:18,22 138:1 194:9 196:1 202:6 204:19,19 205:16,18 209:21 229:6 232:15,20 246:19 261:19 262:18 270:2,4 272:16,19 273:11 283:21 323:19 347:7 353:14 379:6 buying 35:10 138:6

232:5 246:2 buys 58:1 64:1 buzz 150:1 C c7:19,19 350:19 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

3:9 cabinet218:5

263:12 350:20 351:10 cabinets 206:17,18

247:2 263:21 Calabrese2:11

58:8,8,13 104:16 108:22 calculates 205:5 calculation79:16

202:11,21 244:17 calculations 202:12 calculator78:6 California 1:14,17

8:13 11:21 26:12 34:19 41:22 42:12 44:1,6 88:3 90:9 90:11,15 124:15 217:13 275:22 276:4,15 call7:21 11:1 42:11 45:9 151:4 193:19 197:5,9 221:6,9 228:12 233:6,13 243:7 260:10 270:5 271:10,19 320:18 368:2 379:13,14 callback 133:12 callbacks 133:12 called 69:10 93:10 195:1 352:4 calling 195:4

224:13 244:5 259:21 calls 217:17,20

220:21 camera208:22 capability78:11

304:16 capacitors 238:17 capacity70:12 166:6 168:10,19 168:22 181:2,3 365:19 captured 178:18 capturing 124:18 car 196:12 carburetor55:5 card4:7,8,13,18

218:15 219:14 253:6 cards 5:13 217:14

252:15,16,18 care 62:18 79:21 124:8 197:1 218:22 229:21 236:1,6 249:16 328:22 329:1 336:18 career 198:3 200:1

209:16 careful 92:18 140:18 141:11,13 284:3 Carolyn255:13 Carolyn's 204:7 carpet209:12 247:2 carried 324:7 Carrier 1:15 31:9

225:18 247:11 carries 371:10 carrot 80:8 138:14 139:1,4 carrots 274:9 292:1 carry272:13 carrying295:3 case 12:5 54:8,8

64:5 92:3 126:16 133:22 225:17,20 257:13 273:10 304:21 305:22 322:16,17 344:2 344:14 349:7 370:5,6 cased228:10 cases 54:10 224:11

246:18 271:14 285:7 324:1 370:5 cash237:5 267:5

291:8 categories 14:20

209:19 category210:5 caught294:10 cause71:6 323:19

325:12 causes 179:12 causing26:21 54:1 caveat301:22 caveats 258:18 CCMS 77:16 78:16 CEC 91:14 center277:9

364:14 centers 117:10 central 6:13 45:18

45:19 69:9,13 70:3 73:20,20 147:3 152:15 287:22 289:22 364:14 cents 138:9 292:3 certain7:4 40:2 86:12 88:20 93:15 130:19 141:22 179:19 210:5 246:3 265:22 273:19 279:17 285:11 291:7 314:11 325:22 326:6 372:15 certainly 30:9 91:2 135:11 156:3 182:10 285:15 307:8 369:2 certificate 22:11

31:13 236:8 certificates 235:19 certification 32:22

33:5 34:13 62:11 72:2 74:11,19 75:1,22 88:10,15 97:6 119:20 182:6 184:3 certified 34:15

69:19 71:12 90:18 119:20 137:3 294:21 309:20 311:9,14 318:6 351:19 356:14,19 362:16,20,20 certify 32:16 68:11

70:17 103:6 363:2 363:3 certifying 69:12,16

311:8 CFR 8:4 9:17 11:9

15:3 52:16,19 62:9 CFRs 54:16 chain24:14 50:2

67:3 chalk 137:12 challenged 209:21 challenges 210:4 challenging213:11

242:16 chance 139:3 155:21 chances 272:3 change27:7,9 38:18 50:12 52:15 53:17 55:4 74:21 76:17 121:7 125:13 127:8,11 133:8,16,19,22 134:12,17 135:6 135:16,17,18,19 135:20,21 158:18 162:5 198:15,16 199:1,4 299:17 321:9,19,21 349:6 367:10 376:6 380:13,16,18 change-outs 198:5 changed50:8 55:8 133:6 140:13 198:3 254:11 275:14 353:4,5 changes 27:16

256:6 changing 125:12 125:21 133:13 134:1 135:5,7 198:6 251:22 252:1 362:17 374:10 378:8 channel 185:5,11 chapter216:13 charge45:20 119:1 119:4 124:17 139:22 159:18 259:18 260:1 270:9 293:3 charged45:21 52:1 116:9 119:7,17 charging 103:2 124:15 128:22 266:8 CHARLES 2:3,17 Charlie 14:13,15

24:18,20 28:21 66:4,5 96:21 106:4 139:19 156:18 192:6 257:2 259:6,8 264:16 320:6202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 387** Charlie's 250:14

274:6 369:5 chart231:8 charts 231:6 chat301:12 cheaper 132:3

327:1,10 328:8,18 cheat274:5,5 cheater 330:7 cheating 102:4

203:20 check 86:11 237:5

254:14 checked 260:11 checks 33:19 Chernobyl 36:6 children215:5 chime 366:17 choice78:10 136:22 224:22,22 224:22 326:22 choices 29:16 134:8 196:7 228:20 231:10 chomping 165:22 177:22 choose92:19

319:17 chosen 158:16 Chuck 3:16 56:9

79:1 109:14,15 125:7 129:15 132:17 139:6 151:13 178:4 184:5 193:1 210:9 219:10 229:9 233:7 248:13 252:2 260:16 265:9,18,19 275:11 281:22 282:15 Chuck's 258:11 chunk270:17 circle 231:12 circled 60:6 circulation 269:16 circumvent 101:19 citizen 109:8 273:21 city236:21,22

283:18 284:4 289:9 civil45:2 49:22

50:3,20 53:10 56:15 57:4 58:10 58:15,17,21 81:12 86:20 95:3,15,16 95:18 claims 23:13 clammies 166:11 clarification 20:9

33:13 46:3 56:10 66:11 73:14 98:3 110:20 clarify44:21 145:18 162:12 279:15 318:19 335:16 clarity 348:21 Clark 1:13 27:22

27:22 28:6,8,14 31:16,18 32:1 129:6 144:3,19 166:19 167:2,12 186:4,7,16 271:13 271:16 272:5,10 274:17 275:5 276:8 278:20 323:11,11 333:12 335:10 337:20 338:2 339:13,17 341:12,16,21 342:5 343:5 344:6 348:7 349:3,14 350:5,7,16 351:16 352:3 353:9,13 361:12,18 362:10 362:14 367:13,19 377:1,10,12 378:7 378:21 380:21 class 6:7 145:4

216:15 381:8 classes 216:9 clean275:12 cleaning238:15 clear9:21 41:21

73:17 75:11 103:3 106:7 115:16 142:4 171:22 172:1 178:17 257:6 278:12 287:6 340:22 348:13 349:22 clears 312:8 Clearwater262:1 clicked 209:4 client208:8 209:15

249:18 361:9 clients 206:9 close 124:17 294:16

369:2 closed 377:18

378:2 closer 375:18 closest234:13

258:7 clue240:8 247:14 Clunkers 291:8 CMS 325:5 co-op 30:12 38:1 coalition256:5 code79:15 240:6,6

271:19 code's 268:8 Codes42:5 cognizant 191:12 Cohen2:12 219:21

219:21 220:14 221:14,20 222:5 222:10,13,16,18 222:20 224:2,7 225:13 227:11,20 230:3,11 325:14 328:4,11,20 329:2 331:22 coil 18:18 19:7,8,16 19:22 20:6,11 21:2,11,22 23:20 35:11 55:4 116:12 134:17 135:18,19 137:4,15 141:15 161:16 162:19 163:3,5,10,18 165:3 166:8 168:8 168:13,17,22 169:16 171:9,10 171:13,15 172:1,2 172:3,5,17 173:12 173:21 174:8,17 174:17 175:12 176:1 178:22 179:11,15 181:16 182:2,14 183:2 189:13 194:10,13 198:10,15 222:2 222:14 228:1,10 228:11,13,14,15 230:21 231:7 239:17 302:14 304:6,15,22 305:1 305:19 306:2 307:16,17,20 308:8,11,15,20 313:2,4 314:9,12 315:12,14,17,19 317:5,7,11,14 322:6,6 323:1 332:17,20 333:3,3 337:5,19 342:16 350:8,18 351:3,6 355:10 359:5 365:20 coil's 353:4 coil-only 333:14 coils 60:5 165:12 171:1 179:19 194:12 230:15 232:16 247:13 260:17 262:19 302:9 304:1,12 305:16 310:15 312:2 336:15 362:16 cold 166:11 197:6

220:21 224:13 colleagues 54:16 collect4:15 44:3

45:16,16 81:6,16 84:8 208:4 collecting 107:7 collection 57:4

70:15 97:8 collectively 299:12 collects44:1 college 196:12

200:3,5 color 154:10 combination22:18

73:15,19,22 173:22 193:17 247:12 302:11 304:3 315:12 317:6 319:4,6,8 319:14 332:17 333:13 334:7,17 334:22 335:6 336:2 337:12 344:3 346:7 347:5 347:17 348:5,11 348:16 349:2 350:3,4 351:20 353:15 356:4,14 360:1,17 377:7,15 377:22 combinations

72:22 73:2,16 171:5 314:11 333:15 338:8 343:9,14,19 344:4 349:18 combine40:8 combined22:15 126:13 come 6:5,8 7:5 9:7

9:17,19 18:13 27:14,15 29:13 30:1 34:6 41:18 53:5,14,18 61:17 62:1 67:13 70:10 82:18 96:13 99:22 100:19 114:13 130:1 134:7 177:15,17 192:12 192:20 195:9 197:6 203:6 216:7202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 388** 221:16 234:3 251:19 253:14 261:13 265:12 289:13 296:8 299:3 309:20 324:10 325:2 337:22 338:15 352:12 371:5 comes 25:7 92:10 128:6 134:2,13 155:1,4 161:12 164:8 174:4 189:13 206:1 216:17 221:15 229:9 254:15 271:2 273:10 296:6 301:2 329:16 336:13,14 comfort 166:14 comfortable

285:10 373:1 coming4:22 99:16 100:17 152:5 154:11 194:19 199:18 229:8 258:4 295:22 296:8 341:7 364:3 commensurate 118:4 comment60:17

66:6 73:6 151:14 188:10 257:2 294:13 comments 12:20 14:8 66:12 125:11 184:18 254:10 319:18 374:7 commerce 65:19

67:7,10,14,15,20 102:11 commercial 15:8

62:14 91:11 193:9 commercial/indu...

215:17 commission 1:17 17:1 38:11 42:7 42:13 44:1,6 88:3 90:9 commissioned

269:14 commit95:17

280:21 common 18:18 158:15 208:20 238:1 260:6 commonly 170:20 communicate 185:5 287:11 323:18 364:20 communicated

242:15 communicating

286:22 290:1 communication

346:2 communities 240:5

240:8 compact 198:13 companies 214:1 company 1:13,19

2:19 19:20 34:8 208:16 216:19 225:5 226:13 230:11 272:2 comparative72:8 compare25:1,1

72:13 comparison 353:8 competition 213:17

277:4 competitive 224:15 competitors 274:14 complaint96:3,5

276:14 complaints 146:2 complete 329:6 completed 316:15

325:17 completely 23:11 166:7 237:19 276:21 340:2,4 369:22 complex241:14,15 compliance 10:6 12:9,11,16 39:20 42:11,15,20 43:9 43:19 44:2,4 45:5 47:17,18 49:5 68:5,11 74:13 75:4 76:1,3 80:16 102:13,17 122:10 141:2 143:20 145:13,14,17 146:2,16 149:15 257:17 273:1 297:9 309:16,17 329:12,14 336:17 370:8 371:13 372:18 373:9 374:4 375:16 compliant21:12

23:14 80:16 81:22 82:10 94:13 103:1 103:4 144:11,11 145:8 146:20 153:15 159:21 169:17 243:8 246:21 257:10 279:14 333:22 353:2 367:15 379:9 complicated 19:2

54:19 169:5 242:12 complicating 55:9 complications 134:19,20 complied 276:4 complies 131:17

257:12 complimentary

78:3 comply41:3 57:8

74:16 94:21 122:17 143:19 146:3,4,6 190:2 273:20 282:11 315:18 317:13 complying41:14

47:4 75:2 93:18 147:8 component 115:20 115:22 117:11,15 117:16 118:2,3,16 119:9 126:7,22 127:6 135:5 141:2 141:5 186:22 187:9,15 232:6 270:3 components 57:8

78:12 151:9 190:16,17 260:18 comprehensive

276:11 compressor 127:7 127:9 133:16 134:1 135:6,18 137:6 138:4 141:7 195:12 198:5,9 199:5 238:14 315:11 317:5 compressors 133:7 133:21 134:12 135:8 198:3 199:1 computer225:10

244:21 251:7 252:3 259:11 263:20 380:1 conceivable 183:17 concern74:22 119:22 120:10 155:2 179:2 284:20 292:21 323:17 355:4 concerned 67:21 193:12 212:19 287:13 336:22 concerns 83:5 185:1,2 312:11 325:6 concluded 381:10 condenser21:11

22:15 118:5,8 152:7 170:17 181:18,22 182:7 183:11 184:13 187:9,17 195:13 255:6 259:17 311:18 315:12 317:5 319:9 330:6 336:15 342:16 condensing22:1

23:20 116:6 118:14,16 119:3 124:8 127:8,14 128:7,13,15 133:13,19 137:15 141:5,7,14 160:7 164:12 166:9 174:6,15 175:12 176:1 182:13 183:19 189:14 190:5 194:9,11 198:16 228:1 230:15 260:16 262:18 270:4,20 272:19 295:1 302:9,14 304:1,6 304:12,15 305:4 305:10 306:3,21 307:13,19 308:3 310:12,16 311:15 314:8,12,14 362:2 362:7 366:5 conditioned 189:10 conditioner 6:13

7:14 8:5 17:10 73:21 74:1 115:14 116:16 117:1,5 128:10 161:14,18 173:14,16 189:10 197:4 202:1 209:4 213:4 231:15,17 242:21 247:11,12 260:20 261:9 310:3 315:11 317:4,12 319:3 335:22 337:18 conditioners 39:4

45:18,19 114:19 138:2 160:5 161:12 206:4 283:17,19 287:22 288:5 289:17,22 315:6202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 389** conditioning 1:16

7:11 69:9,13 70:3 73:20 109:17 130:13 133:5 193:11 197:8 223:4,7 238:10,12 239:1 242:6 272:1 283:14 306:21 conditions 59:19 180:15 240:2 353:7 conducting 108:19 confer 107:1 111:22 conference46:1 confidence 111:12 confidential 110:17 110:18,19 111:2,4 111:8,12,16 112:3 112:4 207:21 285:6 confidentiality 110:16 269:13 configuring247:7 confirm 106:21

231:1 232:4 conflict347:8 confused 166:3 172:18 287:14 327:6 confusing 320:19

347:3 378:18 confusion9:11 14:17 66:16 164:8 164:21 323:19 325:12 354:22 358:22 Congress 65:10,10

87:6 98:14 101:6 103:9 104:22 105:14 292:13 conjunction 180:22 connect270:7 connected 180:10 connection 312:3 conscious 288:11 consensus 148:17 256:1 320:7 consequence 80:14

313:18 consequences

41:13 80:11 conservation 6:20 102:14 consider73:18

76:2 218:10 263:3 280:3 281:6 290:11 297:7 consideration

276:22 considerations 137:17,18 considered 13:8,10 15:5,11 65:22 82:15 105:11 127:6,14 128:9,15 152:9 186:22 187:18,19 consistent 101:3

226:9 300:5,6,8 consistently 226:9 consternation 179:13 constrained 15:21 constraint 141:13 constraints 198:21 construction 123:15 193:13 194:8 consult246:20

247:2 consumer21:1,10

23:14 24:4 25:20 26:13 55:12,18 58:1 62:13,18 64:2,17 65:20 70:20 78:10 123:11 137:21 138:19 182:8 189:21 218:7 221:9 246:14 325:12 326:21 327:9 330:20 355:6 370:1 consumer's 322:21 355:14 consumers 23:10

23:21 24:7,11,22 26:1,16 28:3 38:13 77:12 130:5 139:8 184:12 195:3 233:10 254:20 297:2 298:5 331:6 353:22 355:17,20 373:8,17 379:20 contact93:12

205:3 380:9 contacted 221:1 contained252:10 containers 158:4 contempt 87:5 content 112:17

373:16 context39:5,17

50:17 59:22 67:18 69:8 79:3 97:14 98:1 148:22 162:22 164:4 170:4 181:5 187:18 293:17 294:5 365:22 continue 153:11

268:5 continuing 153:20 contract23:13

25:14 31:4 91:18 265:16 contracting 89:16

91:5 136:3 193:7 contractor 19:9

21:15,21 24:14 25:7,11 26:17 34:20 35:8 36:7 48:21 55:19 57:6 57:9,16 65:15 66:17 76:9 78:8 104:2 123:11,12 124:19 132:22 136:12,13 138:20 143:11 159:20 182:22 184:4 193:18 195:5,16 196:19 202:8 208:21 210:13 211:6 215:15,19 226:2 228:22 232:7,11 233:18 243:12 247:21,22 254:19 257:8 261:3 265:10 270:9,13 271:17 272:21 276:3 283:15 285:4,10 287:1 293:18 294:9 346:10,18 355:9 358:9,13 364:5,9 369:11 contractor's 23:13

57:13 133:12 204:3 236:18,20 284:10,21 contractors 1:16

2:3 24:9 25:4 29:18 34:3 57:22 77:12 78:4 79:2 129:17 131:15 132:17 134:9 137:19 139:21 140:3 195:21,22 200:7 201:15,18 203:7 208:7,7,16 213:8,11 216:5 232:4 235:10,13 236:1 238:17 239:3,16 243:14 243:15 246:8 247:5 249:4 250:9 253:2,18 254:12 258:19 259:4,14 262:13 265:12 268:9,17 269:4,14 270:10 275:9 276:13,15,17 277:1 287:20 288:7,20 291:15 346:3 349:10 374:19 379:20 contrary25:22 control 101:18 170:5 181:1,20 227:3 270:2 273:17 284:8,9 336:9 controlled 181:2

269:15 controllers 242:14 Controls 1:22

115:19 controversial

273:16 convened 1:8 conversation 114:3 142:21 148:3,8 248:11 264:11 319:22 323:6 369:1 converting 140:7 convince 143:3 convincing 300:22 cool 118:5 206:3

351:9 cooler 15:1,5

341:15 cooler/freezer 14:18 cooling70:11

351:11 Cooperative 1:14

2:14 cooperatives 37:2

258:14 cop 36:9 copies79:11 111:6 copy5:17 10:13 16:15 59:15 111:6 111:6 cornerstone 68:7 corporate286:7 Corporation 1:15

2:11 58:9 correct 11:9,19 14:22 19:8 22:7 32:19 33:1 36:19 42:1 52:19 56:19202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 390** 77:19 92:6,8,14 99:10 110:21 121:1 128:20 156:21 202:4 216:22 227:7 248:14 256:12 257:21 324:14 337:16 347:11 363:20 correctly 321:11

362:1 correspond 37:8 cost35:9 124:12 129:22 130:7 201:10,11 213:5 221:10,11 223:8 225:22 252:2 258:22 266:20 274:16 282:5,6 costing 195:8 costs 125:21 133:15

201:13 Council 1:20 2:1 Counsel 1:21 84:20 count 132:20 360:8 counted288:1 counter286:4 countermand

85:11 country 17:17 19:12 30:8 290:16 293:5 307:10 368:4 counts 213:15,15 county237:1,1 couple24:20 54:18

88:13 137:19 160:9 239:19 250:18 259:10 262:11,12,17 263:15 264:1,5,10 269:11 280:4 302:3 373:14 course 14:12 18:15

48:18 68:3 69:2 84:5 99:20 100:3 101:16 104:12 107:18 114:8 149:10 260:12 296:6 364:4 376:13 court 84:12 85:21

85:22 86:19 87:5 87:7,8,8,9,12,13 108:18 317:2 327:12 courthouse274:11 courts 295:12 cover 68:1,3 159:8 covered 81:18 82:8 101:15,15,18 149:21 185:20 covering 322:15 covers 69:22

215:18 Craigslist259:12 crank211:8 crazy 156:1 291:18

341:16 377:1,3 378:13 create 16:5 44:19 141:21 188:3 277:8 created 6:21 74:19

228:4 247:13 creating 81:18

98:22 creative 298:3 credibility 371:1 credit232:13,13 credits 39:15 40:9 crime 149:2 criminal 58:10 148:22 criminally 58:12 criteria75:3 88:9

88:14 critical 151:12

202:11 235:4 crossroads 197:22 cue 88:19 cultivating 211:12 cure 353:15 curious 67:1 208:3 225:15 current50:9 76:21

82:16 83:9 157:16 302:15 304:7,17 318:22 319:2 354:4,5 currently 18:12

50:7 68:20 70:4 96:20 104:14 118:2 191:10 319:16 curve 186:4 customer23:5 36:7 123:19 140:2 151:6 166:13,13 207:13 210:5 243:19 245:8 288:17,22 289:6 customers 30:11 130:4 131:19 151:3 188:14 206:8 249:6,6,9 253:3 259:16 285:22 287:12 290:1 349:1 361:17 cut 119:2 137:13

291:11,12 294:15 CVI 107:19 cycle 372:3 D D.C 1:9 277:17 DA 154:16 dad200:14 Daiken58:9 Daikin2:11 104:16 daily 80:20 81:9 Dallas 294:1 Dan2:12 219:21

235:18 325:3,14 darn 189:12 data 32:20 41:7

43:9,17 44:1,3,9 68:16 81:6,8,19 81:21 82:1,2 88:10,15 92:10 119:20 120:4 129:22 184:20 211:3 269:10 329:14 330:5 database 33:6

69:19,20,21 71:10 71:11,16 73:7 75:8 76:19 77:11 80:5,7 184:3 206:9 251:5,6 252:3 254:20 289:20 342:8,11 342:19 date 10:5,8,8,21 11:6,7,12,17 17:14 45:5 47:17 47:18 115:13 158:17 Dave2:4 32:6 44:7

58:8 74:6 104:15 104:16 108:21 157:15 158:7 167:15,17 170:14 172:8 187:5 278:9 296:12,17 306:9 308:17 320:16 338:22 345:2,8 347:2 354:5 356:21 365:3 366:15 Dave's 353:10 David 1:17 2:11 109:7 day46:16 95:21 102:18 136:21 210:6 217:4 239:8 240:18 246:7 260:10 330:7 349:11 369:3 376:9 days 58:19 134:15

202:17 208:21 221:2 265:11 de 128:17 218:1 dead 149:8 375:9 deal96:21 205:4

287:16 327:3 361:11 dealer 104:2 205:15 226:3,3 253:1 283:14 323:21 324:2 dealers 226:22 dealership 227:14 dealerships 226:2 dealing210:4,20,22

223:12 224:14 287:19 336:16 death 133:13 debate77:8 decade26:15 160:6

365:7 decades 269:11 December47:6 159:2 decide 39:11,21

49:21 82:9 147:13 170:1,3 291:1 decided7:5 14:2

279:18 decides 165:11 deciding 143:14 decision 195:10

295:14 367:3 decisions 196:6 deck5:18 deep 276:11 277:2

334:22 Defense 1:19 defer 314:16

329:20 define59:9,13,14

62:21 73:21 105:14,21 319:10 319:11 334:12 defined 59:21,22

63:22 65:1,3 104:17 105:1 115:21 117:15 118:15 119:7 126:7 128:13 161:15 162:8,19 173:22 331:15,18 defines 104:21 161:13202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 391** defining 115:16 141:4,14 188:4 definite 168:10 definitely 14:9 51:7 125:6 363:15 definition46:10

59:21 60:8 98:6 114:22 115:19 116:1 117:10 118:2,3 161:17 162:18 164:5 278:12 definitions 65:4

278:11 296:14 definitive 20:19

310:19 degrees 197:3

294:3 delineated 99:6 deliver 67:10 delivered 64:17

65:20 Delivery 101:17 demand 197:9 demanding 197:12 demonstrate76:3 demonstrated

370:2 Dennis 2:13 38:22

38:22 40:18 41:5 denominator 158:15 dentist259:21 deny231:1 denying 15:11 department 1:1,21

2:9,10,12,15,20 3:14 13:14 20:17 45:10 51:16 56:1 58:11 59:8 68:13 69:11,16 77:1 84:16,16 85:1 86:10 88:16 94:4 94:9,18 99:13 104:20 108:4,7 113:21 120:17 134:2 147:6 183:7 184:2 185:15 191:11 219:22 240:18 278:1 290:19 303:7 312:7,10 325:4 356:7 Department's 57:3

97:16 98:5,15 111:16 356:7 depend20:11

211:6 dependent263:1 depending 34:22 130:10 164:16 169:16 209:15 210:12 depends 19:7,8,21

20:3,5 208:6,15 213:21 220:10,19 223:1 225:4 227:9 239:4 244:7 deposited 23:7 Depot246:15 describe226:7

319:16 described45:19 167:13 307:2 describes7:20 8:2 describing9:14 13:5 design 122:18 198:12 245:18 275:9,15 294:11 344:16,17,21 360:20 designated 84:19 designed24:22

28:11 124:6 365:19 366:18 desk231:13 detail 208:19 determinations

81:11 determine 21:2 147:7 148:4 173:3 173:3 174:1 determining90:13 163:12 develop 98:14 101:4 122:4 143:21 146:1 148:19 150:18 152:20 155:15 330:17 331:5 developed256:1 developing50:17 121:19 145:6 211:14 226:20 device 175:15 176:6,12 305:8 devices 278:2 Devil's 352:11 devise 38:5 diagnose 195:11 dialogue247:20

257:8,16 diamonds 242:9 diatribe 193:6 dictate 12:16 133:3

336:9 dictates 292:13 dictating 15:4 143:12 dictionary 59:21 die28:16 difference 11:18

37:1 49:7 135:21 171:8,9 258:20 284:1 293:15 different 17:13 18:19 37:5,12 39:16 51:12 54:17 62:9 88:13 102:1 116:14 125:14 138:15 143:5 149:14 162:21 164:4 169:8 170:18 171:2 172:20 174:22 175:5 209:18 220:7 221:22 233:15 238:8 239:4 240:13 273:9 280:4 282:19 299:15 306:5 319:7 322:11 323:1 325:20 328:11 329:4 359:18 363:15 365:11,17 368:21 377:5 380:17 differentiate

268:16 360:5 differentiating

359:20 differently 14:19

95:9 233:7 difficult57:17 151:17 194:17 198:6 199:10 240:22 277:16 278:18 difficulties 294:14 difficulty7:18

240:15 diligent210:13 dime210:2 dimension228:15

228:16 diminishment

314:4 dire265:21 direct7:5 139:22 direction 55:10,20 132:10 366:7 directions 56:2 directly 90:11 100:20 298:19 directory 22:9,10

24:11,12 26:3 31:20 78:16 354:17 359:7 directs 346:14 dirty260:5 disagree 131:2,7

307:8 disagreeing26:10 disagreement

347:22 disappointed 140:4 314:1,2 disappointing

306:20 313:18 disappointment

307:9 314:5 disassemble 198:7 discontinue 83:1 discourages 355:16 discouraging 140:15 discovered 365:9 discretion45:2

54:7 discuss 13:2 56:4

59:18 76:7 96:9 110:2 114:1 146:10 170:6 208:2 314:17 381:7 discussed 14:2 39:2

43:3 63:1 93:1 96:11 323:14 discusses 59:16

62:10 discussing 65:4

97:14 291:21 discussion 3:18 13:17 14:4,10,11 14:22 15:17 26:21 28:2 41:11 43:2 48:9 51:6 77:16 98:17 107:12 117:10 155:8 170:7 199:3 261:8 354:21 discussions41:16

60:7 201:19 disinclined 273:2 dismiss40:21 dismissed 183:16

381:8,8 disposal 224:20 disruption 370:12 disservice 307:11 dissuade296:7 distinction 32:15

56:21202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 392** distinguish 309:7 distinguishing

309:9 distracted 84:5 distribute 230:5 distributing 67:14

67:19 distribution 65:19

67:6,11,15 102:11 287:12,16 288:11 288:15 289:1 364:14 distributor46:12

48:12 49:14,15 51:20 57:6,11,12 64:9,10,12,14,16 65:8,17 66:1 104:2 144:6,7 153:1 154:17 159:19,19 228:3 230:6 239:17 243:15,16,22 244:4 247:22 248:1 257:9 286:3 286:6 288:9 364:5 374:17 distributors 24:9

45:1,12,20,21 46:4,5,5 49:16 50:1,19 51:2,20 52:17 53:7,10,15 64:7 103:15,17,19 188:14 232:5 258:19 284:9 291:15 District 85:21

87:13 distrust253:11 division 34:9 dock249:2 document6:18

9:12 60:15 77:16 179:4 209:14 211:13 212:8 251:1 346:9 documents 16:20

81:10 85:1 142:22 207:19 212:6 218:3 231:3 DOE7:3,17 13:20 13:22 14:5 15:20 16:3 24:12 44:21 45:14 50:13 52:16 60:10 63:6 81:15 84:13 87:13 88:12 89:14,18 90:18 93:4 101:9 109:21 112:9 119:11,18 148:2 159:17 170:2 182:5 237:19 279:9,17 289:20 290:14 292:8 293:1 295:8 297:17 300:2 302:18 304:10,11 305:14 314:9 321:11,12,17 322:8,11,19 323:2 325:9 326:14 327:7 329:12 332:6 338:16 340:6 345:22 347:10 374:1 DOE's 10:3 62:8

73:18 79:19 90:15 110:18 228:20 298:12 dog 330:16 doing 6:11 17:15

36:14 42:16 53:8 65:19 67:20 68:22 78:17 89:20 123:18,20 124:14 129:17 131:18 134:6 141:16 142:14 151:11 182:3 185:16 193:12,16,22 194:5,22 199:8 205:1 214:1,4,8 214:10,18 229:11 251:12 252:3,6 265:16 267:17 268:4 274:15 275:2 278:1 283:6 290:17 292:2 305:4 329:18 331:2 359:2,4 364:16 370:21 dollar 135:15 dollars 30:5 261:16

292:3 domestically 63:9 Don2:21 54:13

65:6 232:1 239:11 239:12,13,14 271:21 282:14 298:11,18 doohickey 101:21 door23:8 118:17

242:7 261:1 doorbell 194:22 DORIA 1:13 27:3,5

74:6,10 75:10,16 76:12 105:13 257:4,21 280:1,11 281:11,14 380:8 dot322:18 double254:14 doubt 130:21 207:1

264:18,19 274:20 376:10 Doug 1:21 3:12

82:20 97:10 114:4 122:1 123:2 153:11 154:8 155:7 169:7 188:20 219:10 256:8 277:5 279:16 302:7 311:6 321:22 323:7 326:10 332:15 370:7 downer 141:10 downturn241:16

241:18 draft 120:19 121:15 drafting 101:1 drag215:5 drags 226:14 dramatic 303:20 draw311:6 drawback 124:4 drawing 194:1 draws78:16 drier 166:10 drill 131:9 drive 129:18 131:18 135:10 171:3 195:15 294:2 353:3 358:19 drive-by274:3 driven 151:15

283:5 drives 129:21

369:20 driveway 194:20

270:21 driving 178:8 dropped270:20 drug280:13 drugs 280:15 drugstore273:11 Drummary's

349:17 dry 117:1 118:18 119:10 128:22 151:1,5 152:8 156:9 158:2 159:18 189:7 270:4 310:18 311:7,9,15 dry-charge 115:21 130:2,9 136:5,16 140:12 186:8,12 186:21 187:12 dry-charged 116:8 dry-ship 124:14 dry-shipped 122:2 dual 366:8 367:5,6 duct 137:17 294:1 ductwork293:12

293:13 dueling 366:1 E earlier 6:5 18:8 43:6 63:2 94:3 98:9 151:14 194:17 198:2 225:14 255:14 282:15 323:14 330:11 early 134:15 159:7 198:2 ears 370:7 Earthjustice 1:12 easier77:12 173:8 198:17 364:19 378:16 easiest 129:19 easily 192:21

278:14 365:6 easing 361:13 easy 132:20 174:1 198:5 282:10 284:12 297:1,22 358:8,12 373:22 eBay259:13,17 EBCA296:21

297:16 299:1,3 ECM 178:13 181:11 307:14,17 308:14 310:3 314:12 ECM-equipped 174:19 175:14 176:5,12 economical 183:1

282:8 economically

209:20 economics 225:22 economy2:1

297:15 edit69:2 edits 303:11 educate201:18 educated 373:18 education42:14 educational42:18 192:11 EER 8:16,17 9:3 17:21 18:2,3202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 393** EERE292:10 effect9:15,19 10:7 18:13 27:19 76:19 121:6,8,9 132:5 145:1 180:12 303:20 effective 10:1 16:5 16:12 48:6 98:15 98:22 99:17,22 100:10 112:13,13 112:15 113:2 130:6 139:8 143:21 164:10 effectively 113:22

281:17 282:9 effectiveness43:10

43:18 efficiencies 37:12 efficiency 6:19 17:18 18:15 26:14 29:19 37:20 38:4 39:3,8 62:8 69:5 72:16 116:2 117:13 119:12 121:8 127:10 129:21 135:12 138:8,16,19 139:15 145:1 159:13 168:11 183:5 187:14 189:8,22 197:18 198:19 200:21 201:3 263:4 292:12 308:19 344:18 367:1 369:21 373:19 377:20 efficient 137:6 171:14 172:4 212:13 263:5 333:7 347:13,15 347:16 348:5 349:2,9 350:4,15 356:11 357:9,20 360:22 374:5 efficient/most

333:7 efficiently 213:18 effort42:18 370:19 efforts44:4 370:15 egg57:9 eight274:1 EISA 9:22 105:17 Eisner 1:9,12 4:3

4:12,20 5:10 21:1 70:19 71:17 72:7 72:13 73:1 109:10 113:11,18 148:9 179:4 190:21 192:18 204:13 210:7 251:21 260:6 277:20 296:18 301:4,8,13 301:18 303:4 314:21 318:12,14 318:17 321:16 334:1,4 349:15,22 352:6 358:21 368:7,12,15 369:16 374:7,14 380:15 381:6 either21:14 31:3

55:12 68:9 69:13 72:4 113:3 136:20 184:1 200:6 221:7 222:13 299:16 324:15 328:3 355:15,18 elaborate 161:22 170:16 elaborating 188:8 electric 1:14 2:13

29:9 30:12 89:9 electricity 289:3

290:16 electronic204:16

242:14,14 electronically

285:19 Electronics 242:13 element294:11 elements 294:19 eligible 30:16 Elizabeth 1:19 31:19 43:8,16 44:9 49:9,12 52:4 76:7,8 86:14 281:10 331:3 371:2,7 Elizabeth's243:2

257:6 Ellis 1:14 29:8,9

31:1,3,11,15 34:4 36:22 37:4,14,16 258:10 290:7 292:17,18,22 embarking 141:11 embrace27:11

330:21 emergency235:22

240:2 emissions 374:2 emotion286:16 en 379:8 enabled 180:10 enact371:9 enacted9:12 encourage 68:5

203:4 295:18 373:17 encrypt 111:13 ended 60:9 285:13

327:12 ends 284:22 energy 1:1,17,21

2:9,10,12,15,20 6:18,19 7:2 10:15 17:3 25:1,10 26:13 28:3,10,10 29:19 31:17 37:20 38:3 42:13 44:1,6 60:4 62:8 78:14 88:3 90:9 94:18 102:14 110:9 124:11 131:19,20 134:2 138:18 157:19 162:9 164:11 172:11 178:11 184:2 201:8 211:21 219:22 221:16 224:8 252:7,10,13 292:10,12 296:22 297:5 298:8 345:4 357:5,7 365:12 370:1 377:3 Energy's 290:20 Energy-Efficient

2:1 EnergyGuide

354:6 enforce52:16 53:9

56:14,22 66:16 85:21 87:15 107:22 109:3,12 122:19 148:2,5 185:17 240:5 278:19 290:8 330:18 enforceable254:22 enforced27:13

254:4 370:21 enforcement 1:3 16:5,13 29:2 36:2 44:22 45:2 48:6 49:4,22 52:21 53:12 54:6,7 62:11 63:1,6,11 67:17 68:8 77:17 80:13,18 84:21 86:8 93:11 96:12 98:15,22 99:18,22 100:10 107:21 108:20 112:19 115:13 121:19 122:3,4 127:21 129:16,20 138:22 141:18 142:3 143:15,22 145:13 145:18,21 146:15 146:22 147:5,21 148:8 149:11 150:6,9,19 151:18 152:20 153:2,5 181:13 182:17 254:1 277:12 280:3,7,13 281:2 292:1,15 336:16 349:16 355:2 358:2 361:13,16 371:10 372:10 enforces 29:1 enforcing 80:20 145:14 150:20 151:19 329:22 330:5 336:17 engage91:22 93:10 162:1,3 engaging 325:4 engendered 14:7 engine55:5 engineering203:6

245:12 enhancement

42:11 ensuring 374:4 enter251:7 entered 52:22

53:19 207:20 Enterprises 2:4 entire 112:10 113:1 172:11 378:12 entirely 366:4 entities 64:16 entitle 111:5 entitled7:3 291:6 entitles 109:8 entity 12:10 63:13 104:3 109:5 enumerated 8:4 environment348:8 environmental 134:3 369:21 373:22 EPA 118:15 119:8 126:7 127:6 128:8 128:13 140:5 157:12 297:15 EPCA 13:4 62:22

63:2,20 equal 8:19 12:19 134:20 168:13 equally272:18 equipment 8:4 21:3

34:1 35:21 36:2,8202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 394** 36:15 55:2 57:11 59:19 62:15 66:15 66:20 68:2 72:14 72:17 101:16 109:11 135:13 159:9 182:4 195:15 201:4 216:8 218:13,20 231:10 232:17 237:22 238:19 240:1 255:9 259:13 260:9 270:11 272:16 288:19 291:3 294:1 364:6 373:19 equipped 314:12 equivalent 126:20 Eric2:20 106:22 191:1 Erica 300:12 eroded 195:13 escape 197:15 especially 141:20

213:10 214:22 215:10 224:12,17 238:21 espionage286:8 essentially 8:22

81:19 82:2 97:2 105:3 159:6 223:5 264:22 358:20 359:13,14 establish 106:9 established 336:1

342:11 establishes 332:12 esteemed 54:16 estimates 78:14 estimation 69:8 evacuate 133:10 evaporating 126:19 evaporator22:16

23:2,5,15 123:21 124:1,6 134:14 166:8,14,16,20 167:1,4,18 168:5 168:9 181:11 305:6,9 315:12 317:5 365:20 evening 6:7 272:3,9 event67:16,19 events 67:4 eventually 365:14 everybody4:3,5,13

32:14 138:2 177:16 192:20 196:5 198:8 200:5 200:6 233:6 275:17 294:18 381:7 everybody's 231:19

234:1 257:15 363:21 everyday96:1 everyone's 26:19

54:20 evidence 159:20

338:14 evident258:11 evolve50:9 371:15 evolved 365:14 evolving76:20

242:11 exact65:12 349:19 exactly 11:9 14:22

22:11 75:8 180:1 241:9 262:19 323:12 341:6 345:13 357:3 377:16 example70:2 164:13 178:11 179:7 181:9 247:9 281:17 348:17 350:18 377:13 examples 100:15 exception 111:21 125:10 275:8,10 275:15 excess 266:3 exchanger23:9 excluded46:6 excuse 69:3 93:8 268:12 exercise45:1 exhausted 368:7 exist6:21 existing 189:5,9

304:19 305:5 313:2 exists 163:4 313:22 expand 34:10 191:7 expansion 123:22 125:12,22 305:7,7 expect61:11 expectation22:14 expense277:10

282:15 expensive 158:12

212:22 252:4 293:14 experience90:16 124:16 154:11 155:4 211:2 235:13 259:5 275:21 experts 380:5 explain21:15 122:5 179:5 275:18 286:16 324:22 explained 51:21

98:9 378:15 explaining 12:22

45:10 176:16 explanation46:10

365:13 explicit35:18 exposed285:19 express 307:9 expression 137:11 extended 34:8 extends 83:8 extension 305:1 extent78:8 80:6

229:4 257:16 265:22 355:21 363:1,12 366:2 extra 129:21,22 210:2 315:9 extraordinarily 140:4 extreme 304:21 extremely 209:18 eye 89:20 eyes 63:10 110:18 F face96:7 faced 57:13 facilitate42:14 facilitator 1:9,12 facilities 118:20 facing 199:11

241:3 fact 15:6 28:2

29:13 34:7 40:15 53:13 55:2 89:2 131:10 169:15 175:17 201:5 249:20 292:13 304:18 311:17 329:13 365:16 378:22 379:5,7 facto 128:17 218:1 factor55:9 78:18

257:18 factors 96:11

210:12 379:14 factory 244:1 facts 203:8 fail 94:21 160:8 failed 233:12 failing97:6 fails 92:12 93:9 failure 86:18 97:1,8

97:13 101:15 102:5,8 failures 101:13 fair 124:18 127:2,3 150:12,12 170:7 199:21 245:17 251:3 fairly 35:13 37:22 112:19 216:12 364:6 fall 333:21 352:18 familiar 18:10 26:20 33:7 58:18 66:22 78:20 families 365:10 family 200:4 fan 127:10,11 135:16,17 141:8 205:8 365:12,18 fans 365:8,17 far25:20 90:21

96:12 99:9 102:6 110:16 122:18 145:5 162:18 205:11 207:15 211:20 213:21 239:21 280:7,21 292:2 325:4 368:15 far-reaching40:16 faster 198:16 fastest200:9 father229:17 fault 19:1 92:13 favorite 137:11

227:8 228:8 FCC 254:16 feature 101:18

309:10 February 159:3,4,4 federal 16:22 42:3

94:19 109:3 173:20 302:15 304:7,13 308:19 309:3 fee274:12,13 feed71:10 364:15 feeders 195:19,20 195:21 203:20 feel 61:10 115:17 121:19 125:9 161:10,11,16 162:8 184:12 185:14 210:20 211:6 227:14 253:2 339:3 372:22 375:5,14 feeling 379:19202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 395** fence209:3,7 FERNSTROM 1:14 4:17 11:20 12:2 13:18 14:14 15:19 26:11 34:18 36:18 41:20 43:15 43:22 44:11 47:21 48:10,20 49:3 88:2 90:4,8 91:8 91:16 92:2,15 152:17 154:2,5 217:12,19 218:10 269:21 271:1,9 272:12 275:20 276:10 306:17,19 307:7 312:21 313:10,15 314:3 376:9 378:15 FERNSTRROM

376:20 fewer235:17,17 field 27:12 56:5,7

72:1 102:2 119:7 124:15 154:13 174:20,21 175:14 242:12,16 248:1 277:4 304:14 349:18 fields71:21 fifth 234:2 figure 89:3 95:3

99:7 100:9 107:15 188:15 193:21 221:12 228:20 229:14 253:9 254:17 277:17 279:6 379:19 figured 267:21

365:1 figuring 312:16 file97:6 209:1

218:4 files 263:11,22

265:1 filing206:17

263:12,15,21 fill 5:5,9 68:17 217:13 218:15,18 237:5 252:17 253:6 filled4:19 filling 218:11

219:13 260:1 final7:6,6 107:21 150:4 160:15 finalize 121:4,11 finalized 120:22 financing 197:22 find26:7 36:12

70:20 89:4 93:7 94:2 143:2 149:7 183:9 206:22 209:21 212:17 218:5 228:1 271:6 271:11,12,18 278:1,6,7 285:14 285:14 291:11 350:17 358:19 finding240:15

257:10,17 finds 155:4 221:5 fine 149:20 163:16

202:22 203:14 293:1 352:8 357:19 359:12 360:6 fines45:17 50:1

51:19 90:10 fingernail 292:11 fingers 252:21 finish 345:20 fire240:18 firm 202:8 first4:4 9:12 45:11

64:11 74:20 97:1 116:3 122:17 148:6 195:2 206:22 216:15 224:21 237:16 256:3 263:11 280:8,16,22 324:18 326:4 351:10 fit67:3 228:16 258:15 344:22 375:22 fits 228:17 257:11

370:11 five 65:15 170:18

215:20 239:8 267:17,19 301:14 five-year267:20 fix 81:4 95:11 135:5 200:15,16 221:10 222:8,14 229:18,19 fixable 195:12 fixed 167:11 197:18 204:12 293:13 295:4 342:1 fixing 189:9 197:3

293:13 flexibility 234:7 floating 35:19 floor257:3 Florida 144:7

262:1 279:7 284:16 flow 166:9 167:8,10 168:7 169:2 fluid40:1 flush 304:22 flushing 125:11

305:6 fly-by-night294:10 fly-by-nights 283:2 focus 118:1 focusing 118:9 FOIA 111:9,17,20 fold 326:1 folder263:11 264:8 folders 264:15 folks 5:14,18 9:13 12:17,21 14:8 15:10 16:8,15 17:2 18:6,10 19:12 21:5 28:20 43:6 46:11 51:21 52:1 57:20 63:16 63:19 64:1,7 69:4 69:12 81:17 82:7 93:20 94:21 96:16 99:22 100:17 102:4 105:9 107:8 111:5 176:18 191:8 196:7 207:7 211:21 235:12 259:2,6 270:5 297:6 375:3,14,18 follow54:8 85:22

89:8 93:2 163:3 207:6 274:22 297:12 340:1 follow-up 90:5

210:10 262:9 follow-ups 219:22 following 12:2 87:7 146:1 260:9 312:22 328:3 329:15 foot293:1 footprint 198:14 force240:21 forced 108:13 184:19 forces 151:16 forcing 108:17 146:5 forecast 151:8 foreclose 56:1 foregoing 301:15 forensic 149:6 forestall 14:10 forever50:4,6

207:3 forget5:13 38:20

54:11 359:21 form4:19 76:21

354:2 former58:16 forms 5:4 forth225:19 forthcoming 60:15 fortunate 105:14 forum 6:22 91:1 forward 6:2 13:13

84:15 85:7 114:8 153:12,17 188:5 275:19 278:15 284:13 288:18 327:4 found94:10 259:13

261:15 four 8:12 18:4

76:19 170:18,18 200:3 224:16 267:3 289:10 fourth215:7 233:4

234:2 235:6 330:7 frame41:16 43:1 186:20 204:11 213:10 framework 142:22 146:1,10 148:19 188:2 251:1 frankly 223:22 fraud 371:22 free 133:3 freezer 15:2,5 frequency253:22 friends 262:12 front52:8 120:18 188:4 192:20 frustrated 151:21 FT 378:22 FTC 10:11,16 17:4 17:5 25:6 27:15 29:2,4 33:11 73:6 162:9 163:20,22 178:9 181:8 278:22 279:9,17 295:8,8 299:19,21 300:1 313:5,11,19 315:22 317:16 320:7,11 321:2,10 321:18 322:1,2,10 323:16 324:10 325:16 326:14 328:7 329:20 331:11 332:5 336:5,10 339:10 345:21 347:9 348:12,18 349:19 378:8 379:3,17202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 396** 380:3,12 FTC's 17:12

326:17 338:7 fuel 297:15 full41:11 45:15 181:3 206:18 341:2 371:4 379:1 function 312:1 functioning90:1 fundamental 115:11,11 fundamentally

37:5 76:16 380:11 funded 35:21 funneling289:18 furnace43:7 44:13

44:17 175:15 202:22 247:10,11 314:13 365:8 furnace-related7:9 furnaces 171:2

202:20 289:16 371:18 further 11:22 76:2 113:10 161:22 179:20 258:5 272:14 future27:19 50:21

243:20 295:22 314:2 327:3,5 348:15 366:20 372:8 FYI73:8G gain 189:21 gained 189:22 gains 314:4 galvanized23:7 game46:21 104:9 gang-banger

273:22 gaps 366:13 372:7 garage260:22

261:1,19 Garanimals 24:6 garbage 141:9 garden245:22 Gary 1:13,14 11:21 15:20 26:9,12 27:21,22 31:18 34:19 36:19 38:10 41:19,20 43:13 44:5 47:20,22 88:2 90:5 91:17 93:2 98:9 129:4 144:3 150:13 152:17 154:4 167:22 186:6,8 217:12 269:22 271:15 272:13 275:21 278:21 279:16 294:18 306:20 312:22 313:8,21 323:11 330:11 335:17 353:11,11 359:4 377:2 378:14 Gary's 294:13

380:10 gas7:9 140:13

156:19 289:3 gate212:14 GE 247:10 gee222:1 geeky 123:12 general 1:21 3:18

44:2 84:20 152:19 280:12 373:9 generally 294:18

325:8 generating 309:9 generation215:7 generically 230:12 generously 371:8 gentleman49:11 geographic215:18 geographical 34:5 geography 35:1 George250:12 germane91:13 getting25:21 41:18

114:10 126:18 140:11 143:10 184:3 202:14 224:5,7 235:19 241:4,5 252:5 278:7 294:7 311:8 323:2 351:4 372:20 373:10,20 giant258:13 GIBBONS 1:15

31:8,12 235:8 236:15 237:12 give 15:15 25:14

29:22 42:1 45:7 46:10 50:14 55:5 58:6 78:13 82:2 84:22 95:22 96:1 97:4 102:6 111:5 138:20 139:12,14 155:21 162:14 166:12 177:4,6,18 178:1 192:11 201:9 202:2 208:4 212:3 216:10,11 221:17 243:8,9 244:4 248:21 249:10,11,21 257:9 281:8 320:11 335:21 358:7 369:5 374:22 given9:13 10:13

90:9 98:14 189:1 257:12 343:13 367:20,21 379:1 gives 10:15 70:11

101:18 235:6 314:13 348:22 giving 87:11

298:13 353:22 373:1 glad203:1 242:7 Glen 150:13 Glenn 1:16 33:11

33:15,17 79:1,13 144:15,17 184:5 204:6 214:14 243:13 264:16 265:9,19 Glenn's 36:15 go4:3,6,16 5:3 6:2 6:6,16 7:13 10:7 11:21 15:15 17:1 17:7 18:6,9 24:11 24:12 26:2,7 29:11 31:3 40:3 46:22 47:7 49:13 53:6 56:6,8,16 61:8 62:19 64:18 69:2 70:20 71:1,1 71:6 80:4 81:14 84:4,5,12,14 85:20 86:11 89:15 91:4,5,17 93:5,13 94:16 95:6,7,9,15 99:9 100:6 102:9 103:13 107:5,10 109:18 111:11 113:9,13 114:10 114:11 121:11 125:6,6,7 130:18 134:11 138:16 152:3,18 158:15 160:13 163:22 164:2,12 176:17 185:10 192:5 193:20 194:13 196:14 198:22 200:2,17 201:12 201:12,22 204:1 205:7 206:9 212:2 214:5 217:8,20 220:2,14,15 222:20 228:8,14 230:6,16 231:5 234:3,10 238:11 243:22 245:14,15 245:17 246:7,14 246:15,16 247:1 251:15,17 263:16 263:17 265:13 266:15 270:19 271:17 272:18 273:11 274:3 277:2 278:17 281:13 285:9 292:7 297:9 299:17 309:19 311:8 316:17 320:11 325:21 326:18 327:9 346:15 347:6 348:11,17 349:17 349:19 351:21 352:13 355:7 356:1 360:2 368:21 371:22 380:4 goal 112:15 143:16

280:14 322:10 goals 145:9 281:2

323:4 God229:9 245:11 goes 20:12 25:20

69:19 96:12 127:7 127:10 134:13 142:10 145:3,4 150:22 151:1 154:15 221:5 229:13 231:8 239:21 244:8,11 255:12 264:7,8 266:13 284:11 286:5 292:14,14 298:16,19 339:11 344:5 362:4,5 going 6:12 12:14

15:17 16:9,10,11 21:11,15,20 24:8 26:3,16 28:15 34:2,2 39:5 41:1,2 43:2 47:1 48:5,13 48:21 53:2,6,11 55:12,20,21 56:22 56:22 57:17 60:3 60:15,17 61:10 62:12 64:2,3,5,18 66:7,7 74:7 86:4 86:15 89:3,4,7 90:5,13,20,22 93:11 101:7,20 103:11 106:2 124:7 129:18 130:3 131:5202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 397** 132:11 133:3 139:11,11,17 141:21 146:20,21 148:2 149:3,7 151:6 153:13,20 153:22 156:13 158:15 159:16 160:8 162:15 165:9,18 169:1,21 172:2 174:5 175:16 176:10 177:15 181:21 182:18 184:19 186:9 188:3 192:10,19 195:14 196:16 197:11 199:1,4 200:16,16 201:14 202:6 203:14,19,20,22 204:1 208:8 210:1 211:5,9,13 212:7 213:5 214:5 215:20 217:4,7 220:22 221:10,11 222:8 223:8,10 225:18 228:2,5,18 228:19 229:17,20 229:22 232:11 233:18 238:7 242:20 243:6 244:17,19,21,22 245:19 246:4 247:21 248:11,13 248:14,16 250:9 250:10 258:17,17 260:21 261:13,14 261:21 262:1,17 265:1,2,14 270:4 272:21 274:3,5,14 274:19,21,22 275:7,11,13 277:14 278:15,18 281:19 282:21 283:20 284:3,10 287:15 288:18 289:6 290:4 294:14 301:5,13 301:22,22 303:2,4 303:21 308:13,14 312:2 313:7 314:2 316:14 317:20 318:14 320:18 326:21,22 327:4,8 330:5 332:4 334:11 335:11 342:8,19 344:20 344:21 345:19 347:2,3,6 348:16 350:9,20 353:13 354:1 355:6,10,14 355:16,20 356:2 358:7,8 364:15 365:3 366:21 370:9 372:21 373:7 376:14 378:9 379:2,16,17 380:3,19 good5:10 7:22

28:19 41:17 46:13 78:9 80:9,17 105:8 109:6,19 125:3,5 129:13 137:19 155:17 160:12 162:6 167:14 176:16,19 177:18 190:20,21 194:14 198:4,9 199:7,22 218:19 225:1 226:18 229:12 241:13 262:12 265:6 267:8 272:3 275:9 276:12 278:13 280:12 281:22 286:4 290:14,19 291:10 296:16,16 298:21 299:5 301:6 306:22 324:6 358:9,12 Goodman 1:13

2:19 28:1 144:4 186:8 247:11 278:21 323:12 377:2 gotten238:19 240:13 261:8 373:13 government 89:16

91:5,19,20 109:3 government-cont...

93:1 grace46:17 49:17 grandfather

200:14 212:22 Grannis 1:16 granted 134:5 grasp 155:17

160:12 great 191:2 194:11

234:22 245:7 275:16 318:17 376:22 greater26:15 78:7

290:14,19 291:10 343:10,20 374:3 greatest 136:17 grid 180:10,10 ground203:16 group 1:3,8 39:10

40:12 43:11,20 44:10,20 47:19 48:5 49:20 51:6 52:21 59:13 107:11 114:5 115:7 141:15 169:22 170:1,3,3 177:13 190:4 265:15 269:15 320:5 325:8 369:11 group's 320:7 groups 33:4 39:21

293:18 grow226:21 grows263:22 guarantee255:5

296:1 guess 28:17 39:9

75:11 110:19 114:5 125:8 144:4 145:12 148:14 156:8 165:17 193:5 195:17 213:20 219:9 225:15 264:15 268:16 303:16 305:14 323:12 326:11 328:22,22 330:11 336:8 355:3 364:22 367:13 372:13 374:10 guidance9:12,14

10:5 45:8 60:14 61:11 119:12 120:12 121:5 128:8 143:10 303:9 311:7 312:8 312:13 guide 10:15 17:3

25:10 28:3,10 31:17 60:5 101:9 157:19 162:9 164:11 172:11 178:11 224:8 252:7,11,13 298:8 302:19 331:6 339:10 377:3 guide's 297:5 guideline47:15

357:5,7 guides 182:8 297:1 guiding 6:18 guise 157:19 gun273:17 281:4 guy 133:2 165:11

186:17 189:13 194:8 205:4 214:4 214:5 229:13 240:17 244:16 246:1 250:10,11 263:8,9,13,20 265:5 269:4 284:3 284:16 287:18 289:9 guys 6:3 20:19 56:7

62:3 79:10 100:18 113:8,12 136:13 141:17 156:15 188:8 192:13 215:21 222:21,22 240:12 241:19 242:3,4 245:17 265:16 266:15 271:19,20 272:6 279:9 283:2 285:20 288:4 302:4 312:16 314:21 376:1 H half 124:14 halfway269:17 Hampton295:14

295:21 324:20 hand5:2 24:17

42:4 49:9 52:10 133:3 155:21 170:14 183:17 194:1 201:21 225:9 243:3 250:15 273:5 276:22 281:4 299:7 hand-in-hand

30:14 handed 16:21 handle 106:3 handler 170:22 175:15 326:20 handouts 5:20 hands49:20 59:3 150:14 178:3,4 194:1 251:15,17 251:19 280:15 hang279:2 281:16

294:14,20 happen93:4 120:17 133:4 154:13 199:2 233:15 234:4 262:2 272:4 280:8 281:7 327:11 happened 134:12 136:2 140:6 149:7 229:14 267:7202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 398** 282:17 324:5 happening46:20

372:11 happens 136:15 153:5 186:11 189:15 196:20 226:15 227:16,19 247:18 259:14 260:4 264:21 266:5,12 267:2 284:5 286:9,10 323:15 332:13 375:19 happy203:15 harbor297:8 hard25:5 66:9

227:5 237:5 238:8 274:18 281:19,20 294:15 harder240:10

282:8 Hardi 2:18 12:22 110:5 248:10 285:16 326:11 hardware 198:18

205:11 245:4 Harihanan237:18

237:19 HARIHARAN

2:15 harm 348:4 Harris 1:16,16 Harvey2:1 22:20

22:21 23:19 35:15 35:17 36:18 38:7 42:1 77:22 78:1 79:14 91:9 123:3 123:4 125:10 159:1,5 165:19,21 167:22 180:4 181:15 184:22 190:15 269:11 286:15 292:5 295:5 297:13,14 305:2,13 371:3,8 371:16 372:19 379:12 Harvey's 20:13 128:18 299:10 hassle 130:4 hat46:12 hatch57:9 hate249:5 hatted46:13 hazard 137:5

268:16 he'll 296:8 head 36:16 76:12

85:14 129:3 185:18,20 198:11 234:8 337:1 342:6 heads 155:19

335:18 health292:9 hear4:11 6:3 10:22 16:8 21:7 26:4 28:19 51:7 57:20 67:1 77:2 130:17 132:4 152:6 169:19 170:5 192:21 237:16 265:15 271:4 277:2,19 306:12 325:6,7 369:4,10 369:13 379:12,12 heard 12:20 13:21 125:10,18 136:16 136:17 150:5 186:14 232:2 257:14 302:6 312:11 318:15 334:19 335:16 360:20 hearing41:11

48:17 77:6 128:4 131:22 141:19 146:19 147:10,19 148:9 169:9,12 219:19 247:19 277:6 284:20 298:2 302:6 313:8 366:9 heat23:8 117:12,14 117:18,19 166:6 197:5 234:11 235:16 289:15,22 351:11 heater 180:11,20 heaters 180:6,11 182:12 heating2:2 236:14

365:19 heavily216:4,5

229:1 heavy239:5 held 13:11 48:14

49:1 165:9 Helft 87:22 hell 124:5 help 20:19 97:22 138:19 139:9,15 247:7 298:6 326:12 helpful 28:18 33:3

33:8 41:15 43:1 79:12 91:7 104:19 115:17 176:20 177:22 209:2 295:2 301:10 302:3 366:12 369:9 375:2,6 helping277:22 helps 25:7 108:2 140:2 263:14 355:2 hey9:19 19:13 22:3

27:7 53:6 75:6 81:4 82:1 87:6 93:12 94:9,17 95:5 102:16 112:1 149:21 178:20 185:14 205:4 254:18 259:16,21 300:14,14 hhjtesting 102:9 high 35:3,13 124:12 140:16 159:13 166:15 173:21 211:8 242:20 263:4 267:9 268:6 292:10 319:4,13 319:17 351:11 370:3 high-priced 194:12 higher37:10 135:12 139:15 171:14 201:3,4 235:20 360:18 377:20 highest200:21

332:16 333:13 334:7,16,21 335:5 336:1,19 337:11 339:3,7,12 342:14 344:2,3 346:7 348:10,15 350:2 350:10,14 351:19 359:22 360:16 377:6,14 highly241:14 hill 28:17 hinges 189:4 hip 293:22 hire264:1 hiring 34:11 historical74:12 133:4 205:21 hit213:5 316:21

363:17 hoc 303:10 HOI73:9 hold 67:10 235:12

235:13 holding 118:22

290:22 holds 280:19 hole 135:19 home2:21 25:7

79:16 214:5,11 233:16 246:14 247:9 263:5 Homebuilder

49:10 Homebuilders

54:14 homeowner25:12

25:13,15 134:8 135:1 136:22 142:10 154:16 182:17 209:6 212:4 254:14,17 285:1 291:2 323:15 346:2,10 355:6 369:12 374:5 Homeowner's 137:4 homeowners28:15

29:13,22 30:15 131:15 263:2,2 358:14,16 373:18 379:6 homes 34:1 321:7 honest277:1 honor53:3 hope 114:11 295:11

373:15 hopefully 16:16,18

221:22 296:8 302:3 hoping299:14

314:3 horizon 136:6 horse55:6 horsepower55:6 hot 197:10 233:5

234:1 hour266:8,10 Hourahan 1:16

33:12,17,18 79:13 144:12,17 145:2 214:15 243:13,14 244:7 255:19 265:18,19 268:12 268:14 349:10 hours 217:1 240:4

301:9 house 189:10 194:3

202:1,13 205:1,2 205:3 207:16 208:10 213:2,3 220:2 224:9 233:20,21 244:17 244:19 249:21202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 399** 261:10 265:2 houses 239:8 246:5 HRI 313:22 353:6

354:16 HSB's 378:4 huge57:15 199:12

200:3 213:13 278:15,16 286:19 367:9 Huh 129:6 human 197:13,14

379:13 humidity 166:6 167:3,4,14 hump 227:1 hundred23:18

34:6 56:18 266:9 hung203:13 Hungerford 1:17

44:7 328:6 hurdles 114:6 Hurst2:16 21:14

21:17,19,20 23:17 23:17 24:2 26:5 46:1,2 51:21 66:10,10 77:7,7 77:19 226:5,5 227:4 246:11,12 246:12 248:3,6,8 249:22 250:3,3,6 270:12,12 271:6 273:15,15 275:3 299:8,8,21 300:4 300:8,17,22 321:2 321:6 334:21 355:13,22 362:19 363:5,9 364:3 husband215:3 Hustings 251:13 HVAC 34:9 193:3

241:6,10 255:22 hyphen255:21 hypothetically

323:4 I ICM 181:20 183:17 184:14 ICMs 184:9 idea 15:15 54:6

89:7 156:15 186:8 198:9 247:13 290:11 291:18 314:22 377:2,3 378:13 380:16 ideal 324:9 ideas41:12,13 77:2

77:6 identified48:4 identifying49:7

218:13 372:7 idiosyncracies

278:17 ignorant 105:7 ignore 87:6 illegal 284:7 illegally 278:3 illustrated 231:20 Im 306:7 imagine 68:4

326:17 immediate 130:7 impact 107:13 129:16 168:10 367:3 impacting 143:16 impacts 57:22

259:3 impending48:18 impetus 282:3 implications 39:20

40:16 122:2 141:17,20 142:1 implies 179:17 import63:5 67:8,9 importance 63:14

330:14 important9:4 10:6 10:14 11:12 17:12 17:22 20:17 22:22 26:21 38:10 44:15 45:13 46:8,13 57:7 62:22 63:12 63:14 64:9 67:18 70:13 82:11 102:15 103:22 108:2 121:20 122:6,13 128:2 131:11 141:15 143:11,20 148:18 188:18 207:7 210:15 229:3 234:13 250:4 280:2 281:5 330:15 370:13 importing 68:10 imports 63:7 impossible 241:22

281:20 improperly 101:17 improve44:4 improvement5:7 improving77:2 inadequate293:22 inadvertent236:5 incentive 30:1,3

34:21 35:14,20 38:12 138:14,16 139:7 142:7,8 166:12 290:11 355:5 incentives 39:7

40:8 41:1 139:18 141:21 142:5,9,19 incentivize 30:15

291:1 incentivized293:7 incentivizes 37:19 inch 350:20 incidental 218:16 include20:14

71:18,19 110:21 191:8 297:21 315:13 317:6 includes 13:5 97:5

98:7 162:11 including 12:22

73:7 180:6 292:9 293:12 inclusive276:21 inconsistent300:16

300:18 incorporate78:5 incorrectly 324:3 increase 38:5 197:17 increased 140:14 incumbent24:9 incurring274:15 indefinitely 310:15 Independence7:2 independent 181:16 182:2,14 183:2 indexes 365:12 Indiana 193:4

236:17 indicated 96:21 indicates 313:4 indication58:7 indicative 329:12 indifferent 166:5 indisputable28:2 individual 31:4

272:21 302:14 304:6,11,15 individuals 270:6

272:15 indoor 19:7 35:11

70:9 73:22 178:13 208:13 339:5 341:10 347:6 350:9 359:22 indulge 6:10 industrial 62:15 193:9 industry 14:9 28:5

28:6 63:15 86:11 112:10 113:1 130:22 136:4,15 140:8 199:11,13 199:15 200:20 210:11 213:12 226:9 229:1 250:7 253:10,12 258:13 265:21 270:18 278:4 288:10 326:6 354:7,13 infinite 68:4 influence 373:15 inform97:22 informally 366:2 information 5:15

22:14 25:21 26:7 29:15 32:9 33:5 40:22 41:2 43:1 68:17 70:14 71:14 72:4 73:9 76:14 79:5 81:15,17 83:20,21 84:1,8,9 84:22 85:10 91:22 96:2 97:4 106:18 107:7,9,20 111:2 111:4,11,15 112:1 112:5 147:6 150:6 150:7,9 177:18 180:20 181:6 182:7,18,19 183:6 184:1,7,8,10 206:7 211:7 218:11 223:6,20 239:16 244:18 248:12 249:10 251:11 252:10,19 252:22 258:5 273:9 284:14 285:4,6,9,19 286:2,13 295:6 298:5 324:7 329:7 349:1,5 353:22 354:18 372:20,22 373:6 375:1 informed 159:10

331:1 infractions 280:22

281:7 infrastructure

226:20 268:7 Ingersoll 1:13 inhibits 58:10 initially40:17

76:12 160:19 injunctions 108:15 injunctive 108:8,12 injured 149:5 input 151:17202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 400** 379:13 inside23:8 31:18

333:6 insist293:22 inspect29:12 31:5

34:12 inspection 30:20

35:9 36:14 42:15 123:19 inspector 31:9

42:16 inspectors 36:16 install 34:12 47:7

47:13 58:3 165:11 172:16 187:19 207:14 228:6 255:10 259:18 260:1 270:6 272:16 283:21 284:11 302:9 304:1 306:8 353:18 installation 10:2,8 11:7,18 36:8 55:19 124:3 127:16,17 128:16 132:7 152:9 164:11 181:10 185:6 187:17 189:5,6 190:6 218:14 227:21 255:16,22 256:17 293:12 297:3 305:12 312:1 370:16 installations 193:13 294:22 installed 8:6 9:20 17:18 22:12 23:2 31:6 45:5,6 47:3 47:17 109:18 126:16 159:22 164:16,19 169:17 172:2 174:9,18 175:17,20 176:5 176:11 178:13,20 187:1 207:16 222:22 224:9 255:11 263:17 264:7 270:11,21 304:13,19 313:1 343:16 352:21 353:4,6 356:4 373:11 installer 12:6,12,19 13:8 14:6 15:4 55:13 58:4 143:12 192:19 220:7 225:17 306:14 installers 57:22 141:22 192:10 259:3 297:2 375:5 375:21 installing 12:7 128:9 131:16 132:4 219:14 278:2 305:5 306:5 306:7 installs 19:9 instance 39:18 40:9

40:20 69:1 97:19 105:5 278:21 281:9,15 350:16 366:4 371:20 instances 54:10

245:9,20 Institute 2:2 instructor5:2 insulation 152:7 intelligent58:3 intended 156:20 interaction 259:2 interactions 66:22 interest36:13

37:11 137:21 201:2 interested 6:11

44:10 57:20 77:5 200:21 207:22 211:12 212:12 315:9 374:12 interesting 19:19 103:14 242:16 246:10 interests40:5 interface 379:22 interject283:10 internal 89:21

253:8,12 internally 96:11 International 2:16 internet26:2 57:15

57:21 58:2 231:14 261:3 270:1,3,19 272:17 273:7 284:15 interplay 122:21 interpretation

99:14 116:1 298:12 interpreted 100:21 101:2,5 interpreting 127:1

359:14 interprets 321:10 intimate 30:10 37:7 intrigued 294:13 introduce 67:9 introduced 38:20 Introductory 3:11 invalidate 356:12 inventory 195:6

204:14,17,18 205:10 233:2 246:2 inventory's 232:22 invest263:20 investigate 86:3 146:11 147:11 149:9,10,14 investigating 145:6 146:2 investigative 147:14 investor 36:12 Investor-Owned 1:14 invoice207:1 218:5 invoices 207:2 invoke 111:20 involve40:7 involved 10:12 38:9 58:5 106:15 109:9 233:16 IOU 37:13 293:6 IOUs 11:21 26:12

34:19 37:2 47:22 217:13 258:13 irate 374:4 irked 231:19 ISO 90:19 91:12 isolated 229:5 issue7:5 41:19

57:15 71:7 81:3 81:10,11,12 84:18 84:21 115:8,8,11 118:1 120:6,8,10 122:3 123:10 128:5,14 130:3 131:9,11 139:21 144:2 147:18 148:18 151:5 153:8 155:13 160:12,16,19,22 176:16 177:21 181:15 185:22 186:15 206:5 221:6 222:1 254:5 262:16 303:8 313:22 319:17 324:22 325:16 327:20 343:3 368:13 issued 10:11 46:15

84:15 87:15,16 120:16 issues 36:1 57:14

87:5 110:2 133:9 185:12,13 188:9 204:10 287:14 338:4 340:17 issuing 128:8 it'd 66:11 242:1

341:11 it'll 157:20 308:4 item 14:9 76:6 148:11 items 70:1 72:5 J J78:6 79:15 January 10:7 17:11

47:5,11,13 50:12 115:15 117:3 120:16 121:6 156:12 159:3 252:13 346:20 Jeff35:16 jeopardy267:18,19 Jeremiah 18:22

71:2 job42:16 139:12 176:16 195:9 198:17 199:7 206:7,22 207:20 218:21 220:3,16 247:8 249:14,17 255:2,5 258:2,3,3 258:7 262:22,22 263:18 266:20 267:22 268:2 278:2 281:22 282:17,19 jobs 240:16 242:4 258:1 275:8 282:18 Joe 137:4 Johanna2:15

237:14,16,19 John 1:15 2:16

21:17,19 23:16,17 31:8 45:13 46:1,1 46:8,14 51:21,22 66:9,10 77:6,7 110:3,4 131:7 226:5 231:19,22 235:6 246:11,12 248:9 250:3 270:12 273:15 299:6,8 300:1 374:22 376:14,15 John's 25:22 Johnson 1:22 115:19 Johnstone 1:20 116:5 170:9202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 401** 184:22 201:22 Johnstone's 208:10 Jon 369:7 JONATHAN2:18 Jones 231:16 Jordan 1:13 27:3,4

74:5 80:3 105:12 257:1 279:21 281:12 380:8 Jordan's 287:4 Josh27:2,2 judgment93:17 jugs 119:4 July47:2,8 227:16 jump 10:16 62:3 158:21 161:11 jurisdiction 58:12 236:12 jurisdictions 237:4 K Kansas 283:19

289:9 Karen 1:19 19:17

19:18 24:16 59:2 59:8 66:4 73:11 73:13 108:21 118:12 122:17 127:4 129:3 131:6 150:13,17 162:22 164:6 165:1 169:7 169:12 176:15 185:3 262:8,11 264:13 288:4 307:12 314:7,20 318:5 335:16 339:8 352:10 353:10 359:3 361:14 Karen's 180:7

298:19 339:1 356:8 365:6 366:9 378:6 380:11,15 Karim 2:8 10:22

11:2,8,19 22:5,9 32:4 33:3 73:11 131:6 157:11 295:6 313:21 323:10 keep 15:17 17:15

27:20 28:11 62:5 68:20 83:3 86:10 89:19 103:1,4 111:12 119:1 131:5 140:2 204:14 206:14,17 207:3,12,14,15,17 208:8 210:16,21 218:3 229:7 240:22 251:2,3,14 251:16 273:3 331:1 keeping207:8

210:14 266:19 286:5 Keith 2:13 38:22 kept324:3 kernel 299:6 key 67:6 294:19

361:6 364:19 372:15 keys 249:21 278:10 kick 319:20 kids 196:12 263:15 killing 316:11 kind 6:22 15:15 17:3 23:6 30:13 40:11 43:3 60:6 61:22 77:9 79:4 86:10 94:5 95:11 136:5 149:9 154:9 190:7 192:11 195:22 204:14,15 207:7 208:3,4 210:17 211:1 216:3,14 218:1,16 220:16 221:3 223:1 225:15 238:15,17 245:21 247:17 277:8 278:22 279:11 290:10 299:14 319:8 320:3 322:2 326:1,7 328:10 344:22 345:3 349:16 350:19 353:15 356:8 357:6 370:19 372:6,9 375:3,4 375:10 377:4 378:11 kindly7:17 kinds 209:14

233:15 kitchen247:1 knew244:9 246:17

377:7 knife 149:2 154:9 know4:14 12:8

20:9,14 21:10 22:15 23:9 24:4,6 28:14,19 30:7,7 30:13,15,16,18 33:2 37:8,21 38:1 39:4,6 40:3,10,21 46:20 48:12,22 50:13 53:15 54:1 54:5,21 55:15 57:18,19 67:3 76:1 78:17,22 79:5,16 81:19 87:22 96:4 103:8 104:18,20 105:2,2 105:6,8,9,19 106:1,5,14 107:19 108:4,16 109:22 111:8,20 121:5 122:8,15,17,22 127:7,11,20,21 128:1 130:5 136:15,18 137:9 139:9,10 140:19 141:13,16 143:7 143:16 144:8,10 144:19,20,21 147:11,12 148:12 149:1,3,19 150:8 150:9,19 151:7,14 151:15,18 152:5 153:4 154:8,9,19 155:3 156:10,11 156:11 157:19 158:14 162:7 164:17,19 165:13 173:18 175:7,16 176:2,8 177:22 178:14 180:1 183:19 184:4 185:1,7,9 186:10 186:16 191:9 194:4 199:22 201:20 202:3 203:8,8,9,17 204:5,22 205:6,21 206:10,16 207:7 208:9,18 209:9,10 209:11 211:15 212:8 213:6 214:4 214:11 219:5,11 221:12 223:3,13 223:18 224:14,21 229:10 230:15,16 232:19,20 234:2 234:12 235:9,12 236:2 238:6 242:5 242:22 243:5 246:21 249:2,5 251:2,17,21 252:2 252:8 254:16 255:8 257:7 258:2 259:22 261:4,4,16 261:21 262:3,18 263:19 265:5 266:17,18,19 267:11 268:3 269:7 270:11 271:22 273:12 274:7 275:1,17 278:4,5 281:16 283:10,15 284:10 288:16,17 289:6 289:14 290:2,13 290:19 291:16,18 293:4 294:16 297:4,19 305:8 307:19 314:19,20 316:20 317:22 320:17 322:22 323:10 326:7,12 326:13 327:2,2 328:10 330:11 335:10 336:4 341:8 343:15,21 346:12 349:12,14 349:21 350:22 351:5 352:17 353:3 354:20 355:8 357:2 358:4 359:7 371:12 372:2 373:21 374:21 375:2,12 380:5 knowing78:12 105:2 149:11 287:15 knowingly 144:9 knowledge24:3

90:21 104:3,17,21 105:1,12 112:18 120:21 196:3 knowledgeable

299:3 known 105:3 knows 177:16

221:2 276:3 284:22L L'Enfant 1:9 lab 88:9,12,14,18

88:20,22 89:14,20 91:15 92:9 93:6 lab's 89:22 label 17:3,9,13,16 18:10,11,20 19:3 19:12 20:22 23:4 24:21,22 25:6,11 25:12,15,19 26:20 26:22 27:1,7,8,9 27:10,18 28:4,11 29:1 31:17 33:11 60:5 71:18,20 72:10 156:18,19 157:2,12,20 162:9 163:6 164:11 169:12 172:11 178:11 179:2,3,5202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 402** 179:8,9 180:19 181:18 211:21 221:16 222:21 224:8 252:7,11,13 254:16 278:22 297:16,17 298:4,8 298:13,14,15 299:18 300:1 301:3 313:12 315:22 317:17 320:7 321:3,10,19 322:3 323:8,16 324:11,13 325:11 325:19,20 326:3 329:11 330:13,22 330:22 331:11,13 331:21 332:3,9 333:6 336:10,12 341:21 345:20 346:9,14 354:6,8 354:19 359:9 362:3,4,5,18 364:7 367:6,7,8 367:15 373:16 378:6,9 379:3,20 379:21 label's 320:14 labeled 23:19

364:11 labeler 102:12 104:1 labelers 63:16 labeling 10:11 22:3

41:19 43:3 54:22 156:9 164:13 181:8 279:19,21 313:20 353:2 373:13 375:12 labeling's 364:19 labels 10:15 73:7

337:21 367:2 labor240:21 263:1 labs 89:17 90:18

91:6,18,21 93:1 lack24:3 lacking254:1 laid 140:1 162:9 318:8 land 136:19 lands 154:17 lane 367:20 language9:17,22 15:3,9,13,21 16:16 23:13 65:12 99:2 181:8 lap 154:18 laps 155:1 large 18:5 70:7 166:16 215:18 243:11,18 269:15 348:3 larger 134:19 153:7 168:22 180:10 226:12 280:18 344:4 365:18,21 largest315:15

317:8 late46:20 240:2

247:17 376:10 latent 166:6 Lattanzi 1:18 60:2

60:2,13,21 61:5,9 61:19 114:17,17 115:2,10 116:4,12 116:18,22 118:11 120:12,15,16,21 121:3,16 125:8,17 126:1,3,9 127:3 128:11 160:20 161:1,6,9,21 162:6 175:19 178:6,16 179:20 180:3 188:10,21 309:22 310:1,8,17 310:21 311:3,21 312:5,6,18 316:12 318:1 327:13,14 327:19 340:19 341:5,14,18 342:2 342:22 345:2,8,12 Laura2:10 84:20

85:10 91:3 337:4 Laura's 337:1 law38:14 94:19 95:19 105:12 109:3 145:5,14 273:21,21 274:2 274:10,20 275:14 276:13 277:15 282:4 288:12,17 laws 39:5 197:14 197:14,18 273:17 379:10 lawsuit7:10 lawyer 101:9 lawyers 101:7 106:14 107:10 169:5 298:22 lay 161:9 274:18 lays 10:15 17:17

62:12 305:15 lead269:8 271:14 leading 319:19 leaking 195:13

222:2 lean213:18 leanly213:22 learn90:15 leave 156:8 166:10

209:12 246:20 376:12 lecture 192:19 193:5 left55:7 59:2

227:17 242:3 left-hand 334:13 legal 63:19 77:13

77:14 100:7 117:16 119:5,5,17 122:8 154:3,6,15 163:20 174:3,14 175:21 179:16 180:22 181:9,19 284:6 303:11 305:11,12 306:1,3 330:19 352:14 359:8 legally 123:18 127:22 164:15 307:18 328:13 379:9 legislated 292:20 legislative 15:21 legislature 90:10 legitimate 183:6

292:21 346:6,11 legitimately 182:4 legwork245:13 length 13:3 121:17 leniency258:18 Lennox2:16 21:18

21:20 23:16,18 46:5 64:12 66:11 77:8 225:18 226:3 226:6 246:13 273:16 299:8 lesser78:7 330:13 let's 7:13 9:5,6 15:17 17:2,7 18:9 46:22 48:9 56:6 71:7 80:4 81:14 84:14 96:16,18 99:17 106:1 116:3 121:22 130:17 131:9 141:10 142:4 161:2,4 173:5 181:12 223:9 244:15 275:9,14,18 301:8 315:2 330:20,20 330:22 332:19 333:12 348:17 350:19 351:7 369:16 377:19,21 378:12 letting 189:22 level 19:16 35:3,13

76:11,15 79:19 82:7 108:1 139:17 139:17 187:14 261:11 286:8 292:15 311:19 344:19 360:4 370:3 371:12 372:18 373:5 levels 198:20 374:1 levy90:10 liability 155:9 170:4 182:13 185:1,2,6 liable92:14 license236:18,19

274:22 licenses 236:14,16

237:3 268:20 lieu 378:6 life 57:17 83:8 133:13 160:5,6 201:5 light66:6 96:10 128:12 lighting 89:9 103:10,11 liked 135:9 likelihood 377:14 limit58:21 65:7 limitation 330:19 limited7:4 39:18

45:18 47:19 57:3 74:15 83:22 84:4 109:10,13,14 142:20 254:12 Lincoln 1:14 29:9 line 12:3 44:7 52:10 119:2 134:16,17 137:17 169:4 208:16 212:19 232:12 274:11,13 281:13 286:22 292:13,13 319:13 322:19 342:9,20 344:20 345:16 360:8,10,18 lined 361:1 lines 270:8 325:19

345:1 362:7 list4:9 33:8 60:1

77:9 114:13 369:17 listed74:2 228:17 listen 87:9 95:5 102:16 149:21 listened 87:17 listening 36:4202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 403** 277:6 listings 289:22 lists 69:22 103:17 103:18 literature 224:19

225:8,11 litigation43:7

44:13 53:1 little 5:4 6:11 8:11 19:2 38:1 49:5 60:6 63:1 101:8 114:12 115:5 140:18 142:11 145:19 154:10 155:15 161:22 190:10 193:6 201:2,14 204:13 212:2 214:11 215:17 218:15 229:21 249:14 260:5 287:9 293:3 377:16 live 134:4 215:14

373:4 lives 133:1 living 168:3 267:8

289:5 Liz 153:9 LLC 2:4 LLP 1:16 load78:6 79:16

202:20 244:17 246:6 loads 341:15 loans 200:3 locality 34:22 location 144:22

218:13 locations 247:4,5 logic 366:13 logically 159:17 long 69:15 79:21

97:3 133:5 179:10 200:13 216:16 242:3 257:13 264:14 267:15 269:12 281:1 329:10 335:14 339:13,15 359:10 367:11 longer99:5 118:19

346:1 381:2 look7:15 15:14 17:18 22:10,16 31:13 40:22 59:15 64:10 83:15 86:14 93:13 96:8 107:13 109:18 123:7,11 124:21 137:19 143:16 146:14 149:4,4,4 162:8 194:19 202:17 221:9 231:6 242:9 244:15,21 254:7 258:16 267:10,11 274:8 292:2 324:2 326:3 333:5 336:5 358:8 365:8 looked 209:11

254:9 260:7 365:10 looking 31:17 36:1

97:21 104:19 110:5,11,12 148:10 170:2 183:1 189:17 200:9 220:22 227:21,22 242:4 248:20 279:12 328:7,13 342:19 346:15 348:14 375:9 looks76:22 89:2

346:18 377:16 loopholes 372:7 lose235:2 241:20

241:20 255:10 370:9 losing 351:14 loss 217:4 lost240:21 293:15 lot 10:12 12:14,17 12:20 46:18 52:13 54:2 57:14 59:5 60:3,4 63:13 67:13,16 70:6 80:7 91:10 110:1 120:4 123:20 124:3 133:16 134:19 135:4,14 136:21,22 137:10 140:7 150:5 151:15 154:11,18 160:11 189:1 191:9 195:20 201:6 208:15 213:16,19 216:2 218:18,20 220:21 220:22 227:1 252:4 253:2 254:20 259:12 262:16 282:15 285:20 286:16 291:13 307:9 315:8 335:4 342:3 348:3,4 350:18 353:3 370:9 371:10,11 379:13 lots 133:11 208:19

208:21 238:10 241:14 353:5 loud 141:9 354:9 louder4:11 love204:2 248:22

255:2 loving275:3 low 140:16 286:8

351:11 low-lying 124:19 lower35:6 169:2 174:12 282:4 313:3 334:13,13 334:16 335:7 341:8,15 352:1 lowest 124:12 158:15 167:7,9 339:11 lubricants 125:14 lubricating 125:22 luckily 178:1 lucky219:3 226:17 lunch 178:2 190:20 190:22 192:13 lunchtime289:20 lying 103:8 M ma'am209:7 machine 137:7 magazine273:19 magazines269:16 magic295:11

358:19 magically 205:6 magnetic266:13 mail 237:5,8 main 63:2 152:6 185:17 maintain 106:10 169:1 maintaining

327:16 maintains 264:15

370:22 major215:10,16

218:14 241:4 258:20 majority 23:21

239:1 274:14 275:8 288:21 358:4 make-believe 195:22 making9:7 14:12

26:19 50:21 51:2 54:4 68:9 91:11 91:12 105:10 157:3 198:12 240:21 256:8 266:7 272:7 281:6 288:11 290:11 325:18 326:4 328:14 375:16 378:13 380:12 MALE4:10 364:16 man215:13 225:9

242:21 253:5 263:10 286:4 287:17 managed 88:12 89:14 mandate 16:14

40:4 98:14 manilla263:11 manner 82:19

312:14 372:5 Manual78:6 79:15 manufacture 10:9 17:14 63:4,17 118:21 173:19 302:8 303:22 306:11 310:15 manufactured 9:20 17:11 18:12 45:4 47:5,6,16 115:14 117:2 manufacturer 12:5 12:19 13:4,10 14:7,20 15:6 48:11 63:3 64:11 74:16 75:1 76:10 76:15 81:8 82:12 88:17 92:4,9,12 92:18 93:12 94:9 94:16 97:13 98:6 102:5,8,12 104:1 105:4 106:8 143:13,17 144:1 153:1 154:12,21 155:9 164:9 165:16 169:14 170:4 174:2 182:3 182:19 183:3 228:3 229:4,5 262:20 285:8 306:13 331:10 336:11 352:12 374:20 manufacturer's

25:18 143:14 154:17 175:7 252:11 manufacturers 15:12 24:10 25:19 39:13 63:10 64:8 68:8,22 70:17202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 404** 74:14 82:5 83:9 83:22 85:3 91:21 96:22 101:14 104:7 112:8 118:17 143:19 153:18 158:16 180:6 181:17 182:1,15 185:2 188:15 191:9 216:7 217:14 231:7 252:20,21 284:8 287:11,21 288:3,10 289:2 291:14 365:16 375:20 manufacturing 1:13,19 2:19 11:6 11:12 17:13 28:1 82:8 118:14 153:21 375:19 map 254:15 margin201:4

213:13 mark 137:12

377:11,12 market38:18

42:14 46:18 78:19 83:3 115:12 130:10 133:1,1 134:7 135:9 142:9 151:16 157:21 158:11,17 162:10 188:5 194:16,18 199:19 204:3,4 212:12,18 215:20 233:11 239:6,7 264:12 277:8 281:18 282:1 287:18 344:17 366:3,7,19 371:1 373:7 marketers 379:15 marketing 50:2 180:20 221:22 226:22 marketplace 60:22

72:15 151:13 326:15 markets 130:15,19 193:8,11 215:11 match 24:7 31:10

70:8 179:1 182:20 183:4 231:6 334:2 339:4,5 347:6 match-up 231:8 matched 126:19

247:14 matches 170:22 181:21 194:10,14 matching21:22

23:22 70:8 336:19 material 5:21

29:14 materials 25:18,20

331:5 Matt60:1,2 114:17 120:15 124:22,22 125:4,6 126:17 131:6 160:16 161:5 162:7 178:3 185:13 188:19 309:22 312:6 327:13 matter7:16 62:17 113:16 116:8,19 149:22 163:7 187:12,18 192:16 283:22 295:6 301:15 368:11 381:10 matters 188:4 MATTHEW 1:18 maximum 95:18

96:6,8 McCrudden2:17 14:15,16 24:19 26:6 29:3 66:5 106:5,20 107:2,14 107:17 114:15 138:10 139:19,19 140:22 142:4,7,13 142:18 143:9 156:17,22 157:4,7 157:9,14 191:14 191:18,21 192:2,7 250:17 252:1 253:17,21 255:17 256:11,13,16,21 259:7,8,9 285:18 320:3,10,14,20 321:5 328:5 333:5 333:11 MCCRUDDY

260:12 mean9:15 37:16

40:1 45:11 51:2 56:15 59:10 61:3 67:7 71:8 76:20 84:12,13 104:10 109:21 129:7 137:10,16 139:6 145:4 146:9,14,20 147:18 150:7 153:16,19 161:5 168:2 170:16 171:21 174:10 176:4 186:11 193:8 195:7 196:20 200:2 201:2,5 203:12 204:2,9 207:18 213:14,22 217:21 219:4 220:8 221:20 222:2 224:11 225:20 235:3 236:5,9,16 241:13 244:13 249:4 251:12 259:20 272:20 275:7,17 280:1 290:15 291:3 294:6 314:22 320:10 323:3 327:15 331:4,8 339:2 340:19,20 340:22 341:7,21 353:2,10 357:11 358:9,18 363:20 364:18 365:2,3 372:7 373:1 379:9 379:10 380:11,19 meaning74:16 75:21 163:4 meaningful 372:10 means 23:22 45:15

46:11 67:7,8,9,20 99:4 105:2,19 113:2 163:11 173:11 179:6 196:15 210:6 212:8 218:3 233:12 238:15 315:16,18 317:13 331:9 337:14 346:8 meant 100:14 126:2 178:19 measure 137:11 mechanical 240:6 mechanism22:3

48:6 181:13 273:5 371:18 median 160:6 meet30:17 42:2

72:15 77:4 82:4 91:6,20 93:9 94:18 98:21 119:12 128:19 131:20 137:9 176:11 302:10,15 304:2,6,12 308:20 315:20 317:15 328:15 356:11 meeting 1:5 14:5 15:2 38:14 79:4 79:11 93:8 113:19 126:12,16 295:22 299:5 304:16 371:13 374:1,16 376:4,8 381:9 meetings 13:21

259:10,10 meets 256:9 340:5

345:20 Melchi 2:18 45:13 110:4,12,15 111:1 111:17 112:6,21 113:4 231:19,22 231:22 248:9,9,16 248:19 369:7 member4:17 5:8 11:20 12:2 13:18 14:14 15:19 19:18 20:2,5,8 21:7 22:21 23:16 24:1 24:16 26:11 27:3 27:5,22 28:6,8,14 28:21 29:5,8 31:1 31:3,8,11,12,15 31:16,19 32:1,2,8 32:9,12,19,20 33:12,17 34:4,18 35:17 36:18,22 37:4,14,16 38:7 38:16 41:20 43:8 43:14,15,17,22 44:11 47:21 48:10 48:20 49:3,12,15 50:3,16,19 51:1,8 51:14 52:5,7,11 53:20 54:3 56:10 56:13,20 57:5 59:4,7 60:2,13,21 61:5,9,19 71:12 71:14 73:5,12 74:4,6,10 75:10 75:16 76:8,12 78:1 79:6,13 83:11,14,19 84:10 85:2,5,12,17 86:15,18 87:2,10 87:18,20 88:2 90:4,8 91:8,9,16 92:2,15 97:10,12 97:20 98:2,11,18 99:1,11 100:5,12 100:14 105:13 108:6,10 109:15 193:1 204:17 207:17 208:6,14 210:18 211:5,11 211:18 212:1,5,11 214:7,15,16,19 216:21 217:12,16 217:19,22 218:10202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 405** 218:17 219:16 220:10,17 221:18 222:4,7,12,15,18 223:1 224:4,10 226:1 227:2,8,13 228:7 230:9,13,17 230:19,22 231:2,5 231:11 232:10 234:5,19,21 235:1 235:3,7,8 236:11 236:15,17 237:12 238:2,5 241:8,10 242:2 243:4,10,11 243:13 244:2,7,8 244:9,11,13,15 246:9 247:19 248:4,7,15,18,20 250:2,5,8,14 253:15,19 255:15 255:19 256:12 257:4,20,21 258:10 260:15 262:4,7,10 264:17 265:18 268:11,12 268:13,14 269:10 269:21 271:1,9,13 271:16 272:5,10 272:12 275:6,20 276:8,10 278:9,20 280:1,11 281:8,11 281:14 283:9,13 283:15 284:19 285:1,3,15 286:14 287:5,8 290:7 292:6,17,19,22 293:9 295:10,15 295:18 296:11,16 296:19 297:11,14 297:19 298:7 299:19 300:11 302:20 303:1,12 304:20 305:3,18 305:22 306:7,9,15 306:17,18,19 307:7 308:4,6,10 308:17 309:2,13 309:22 310:8,17 310:21 311:3 312:18,21 313:10 313:15 314:3,6,18 316:1,2,4,7,11,12 316:14,21 317:19 317:22 318:1,3,11 318:18 319:2 320:1,9,13,16,21 321:9,14 323:11 324:9 326:10 327:13,18,19 328:6,9,17,21 329:2,9,19 330:2 330:8 331:3,8,16 331:17,20 332:2 332:10,14,19,21 333:2,9,12,17,19 334:3,6,9,11,14 334:18,20 335:2 335:10,14,20 337:3,9,14,17,20 337:22 338:2,12 338:22 339:13,15 339:17,19,21 340:3,8,11,19 341:4,5,12,14,16 341:18,21 342:2,4 342:5,7,22 343:1 343:5,8,11,15,17 343:21 344:6,7,8 344:11,15 345:2,5 345:8,10,12,15,18 346:13,17 347:1,9 347:11,12,14,16 347:18,19,21 348:2,7,22 349:3 349:4,7,10,12,14 349:21 350:2,5,6 350:7,16 351:13 351:16,17 352:3,6 352:8,10,16,17,19 352:20,22 353:1,9 353:13,17,19,21 354:4 355:3,19 356:1,20 357:4,8 357:11,13,16,18 358:2,14,16,18,21 360:12,13 361:3,5 361:10,12,15,18 361:19 362:6,10 362:11,14 363:16 364:1,10,12,18 365:7 366:15 367:5,11,13,17,19 367:21 368:1,9,14 368:20 369:10,19 371:7 372:13 375:10 376:3,7,9 376:17,20 377:1 377:10,12 378:7 378:14,15,21 379:11 380:8,18 380:21 381:1 members 30:10,11

31:22 32:17 34:10 37:7 38:2 71:15 112:11 232:2 250:22 251:5 252:17 259:19 267:13,15,15 membership

267:11 274:6 mentality 201:16 mention 139:6

215:6 299:9 mentioned 6:5

30:19 43:5 44:6 78:21 94:3 121:17 220:2 225:14 243:6 254:13 255:14 266:1 359:4 371:16 message278:7

291:5 messed 345:3 met50:7 119:21

348:5 meter 126:20 method 69:10 166:4 256:8 methodology

309:19 methods 297:1,21 metropolitan 215:10 Mexico 8:13 Meyers 1:19 19:18

20:2,5,8 21:7 23:16 24:16 59:4 59:7 73:12 74:4 83:14,19 85:2,5 85:12,17 118:12 120:7 122:7,11,14 127:4,17,19 128:20 129:4,7,11 130:14 131:2 132:12 136:20 138:12 140:21 150:15,17,18,22 151:22 152:13 164:7 165:4,15 169:20 172:18 173:1,4,9,15,18 174:13,21 175:2,6 175:11,22 176:22 177:9,19 262:10 264:17 265:4 300:14 307:12 317:1 324:9 334:9 334:14,20 339:19 340:11 342:4,7 343:1,11,21 350:2 350:6 351:13,17 352:8,17,20 353:1 353:19 357:4,8,13 357:18 358:2,16 360:12 361:3,15 362:6,11 363:16 364:1 micrometer 137:12 mid-level 287:17 middle 198:10

336:21 360:2 middleman 64:20 Mike 239:10 miles 283:18 284:3 million70:4 73:15

228:20 288:5 292:16 mind 17:15 55:15

74:7 118:4 137:21 145:22 170:1 203:7 219:18 273:10 331:19 371:11 minds 378:10

379:5 mindset 136:2 mine262:14

265:14 mine's 263:19 minimal 279:3,3

298:16 minimize200:17

203:21 minimizes 277:13 minimum 35:22

36:3 39:3,15,21 40:4 94:19 119:14 119:16 127:9 138:16 144:22 173:20 174:14 176:3,8,11 204:18 308:19 321:4 324:15 331:12 332:6,9,18,22 336:3 337:6 344:18 347:17 348:5 351:14 352:2,14 358:6 360:10 361:2 362:21 370:12 378:19 minimum-efficie...

36:8,14 40:19 minimums 308:21

309:3 Minnesota283:5

284:15 minor 195:11 minute213:14

219:11 275:4 302:22 358:22 minutes 62:5 197:11 284:17 315:1 Mishawaka236:22 misheard 126:4202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 406** mislead 322:22 misleading 313:5

320:13,20,22 322:15 341:22 355:1 missing 120:6 145:22 216:15 misstated 125:15 mistake 81:3,4,5 mistakes 290:21 mitigate 348:4 mix 180:19 239:4 mix-matched

247:16 Mixed212:10 Mm-hmm 210:18

219:16 243:10 mode 37:12 model 22:16 39:10

68:14,14 69:17,18 73:19,21 74:2,3 75:7 110:8 117:19 203:17 208:11,12 208:18 218:12 261:11,15,18 262:19 317:9 342:9 356:14 360:8,10 362:2 363:3,17 366:8 367:5,8,9 368:2,3 380:16 381:5 modeling 69:15

336:14 models 68:2 70:4,6

70:8 73:15 160:4 359:17 363:4 365:10,17 366:2 366:17 367:7 370:12 modified 116:7 modify 371:15

372:4 moisture 166:10 mom217:6 moment 13:14 56:6

85:19 98:16 100:8 101:10 160:13 279:21 314:16 324:20 moments 354:9 monetary 51:19 money 34:15 36:11

38:12 45:16,21 51:16 52:1 57:1 94:5 97:8 103:2 123:20 131:15 132:19 134:21 135:4 138:1 140:7 142:10,15 189:11 197:21 201:14 204:18 209:22 229:20,22 236:3 272:8 288:22 monitor 149:15 monitoring 145:6 Montana261:22

284:16 month241:12 monthly 37:9 months47:1,18 151:10 289:10,11 moonlight272:7 morning5:3 9:13 113:7 291:22 motor 135:17

229:10 270:2 307:14 motors 89:9 205:9

238:16 260:18 mouth 158:20 move72:20 114:7 130:3 143:4 153:12,16 161:2 188:4 212:17 213:15 230:4 236:2 275:19 moved265:3 366:7 mover20:3,15

70:10 175:20 movers 60:6 moving 175:14 176:6,12 241:14 MR.CLARK 167:7 muddy209:12 multi46:12 multi-family 193:14 194:4 multiple 223:15

232:4 municipality 236:5 mute 316:22 MYERS 302:20

303:1 308:4 309:13 314:6,18 316:2,7,11,14 317:19,22 318:3 318:11 320:1,9,13 321:9 331:8,17 332:10,19 333:2 333:17 334:3 335:20 337:3,9,14 337:17,22 338:12 341:4 343:15 347:12,18 361:10 361:19N NAHB 65:6 239:13

240:1 241:4 nails 246:15,16 name5:1 11:1

38:21 54:11 79:9 110:8 120:14 263:11 name's 296:4 narrow40:11

351:8 narrows283:7 national 2:3,13,21 11:5,13,14 49:10 54:14 75:13 108:1 117:14,18 118:5 124:11 173:10,11 302:16 309:10,17 342:13 368:2 370:1 381:5 nationally 119:14 Natural 1:19 nature 197:13,14 near27:19 178:1

241:22 340:21 nearly54:15 nebulous 261:9 necessarily 101:9 139:1,13 149:15 276:20 283:20 297:4 322:20 347:22 350:14 354:1 364:21 necessary 16:4

91:2 99:21 146:6 need9:3 19:15

20:10 27:20 28:11 29:15 30:2 39:12 48:7 58:2 60:10 91:19 93:21 98:21 110:19 111:8 114:7,11,21 122:7 122:14 127:20 147:7,14,14 148:4 148:7 149:1,18 152:15 160:13 170:5,6 176:17 183:19 184:11 185:14 193:20 196:22 197:10 201:20,21,22 203:2,7,8,9,16,21 222:16 223:7 224:3 227:18 228:9,10,11,17 233:20 239:17 244:19 246:15,19 246:20,21 247:2,3 247:7 248:5 249:11 251:20 257:11 259:22 260:19 277:19 285:13 295:14 314:15,18 317:10 326:1 333:2,3 338:3,14,21 341:13 347:13 350:3 367:17 368:18 369:12,12 needed 3:14 113:20 133:22 196:13 246:17 316:9 needs 53:17 72:15 77:4 92:18 101:11 115:7 170:3 204:10 233:6 266:22 324:15 332:9 347:17 negative41:14

80:11 94:15 negotiated 91:11 negotiation 16:3

48:19 98:17,20 99:20 100:9 101:11 104:13 114:2 Neil 1:9,12 4:17

21:9 Neil's73:5 neither230:22 net 138:18 Nevada 8:13 never23:21 120:22 127:5 128:18,21 170:1 172:16 197:2 200:16 211:9 217:16 257:9 275:11 331:19 379:22 new6:6 8:13 39:5

50:13 102:12 119:3 123:15 127:9 128:10 131:16 132:4 133:14 180:11 189:5,6 190:1,2 191:8 193:12,13 193:22 194:7 195:15 196:13 206:11 216:8 222:17 224:3 288:18 302:10,17 304:2,8,15,18 305:1,7 307:6 319:3 354:8 380:16 Newsome295:21

324:21 nice205:3 niche 370:6202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 407** night 186:3 190:19

214:6 216:15 240:2 372:19 nine274:1 nitrogen 118:22 nod 36:16 294:18 nodding 85:13 129:3 155:18 185:18,20 Noll 1:19 31:19

32:2 43:8,14,17 49:12,15 50:3,16 50:19 51:1,8,14 52:5 53:20 76:8 84:10 86:15,18 87:2,10,18,20 97:10,12,20 100:14 126:5,11 126:21 153:9,9 177:7 188:1 243:4 243:11 244:2,9,13 246:9 247:19 248:4,7 255:15 257:20 281:8,11 331:3 347:16,19 348:2,22 349:4 371:7 non-AHRI71:13

71:15 non-complaint

94:10 non-compliant

364:6 non-condensing

366:6 non-emergency

235:20 non-minimum-st...

41:8 noncompliance

81:11 94:7 noncompliant

47:12 83:7 94:2 102:20 108:15 153:18 nonexistent 132:8 nonmembers 32:17 nonparticipation 35:13 NOPR254:10 Nordyne 1:18 60:3 114:18 120:16 norm 133:15,18 134:1 233:14 normally 123:22 125:13 228:7 north 154:3,6 178:20 284:6 307:16 310:1 319:5 321:11 324:14 333:22 341:11,13 351:1,9 352:4 356:22 357:9,16,19 358:20 359:1,17 360:5 362:4 364:15 367:16 368:5 northern 332:16

359:2 367:8,9 368:2 northwest29:19

37:18 39:11 notarized237:12 note7:4 44:20 78:2 192:9 noted 379:3 notes 5:19 notice5:19 94:8

268:1 notify95:2 noun 142:8 nowadays 198:8 NRDC 31:19 43:8 153:9 NRECA 39:1 180:7 NTA 12:21 nuanced 190:12 number5:20 8:1

22:16 55:1 65:12 68:2 72:8 78:4 86:12 93:16 96:10 96:13 106:6 110:8 137:9 171:14 179:12,14,16 180:7 208:12 210:12 218:12,12 246:3 250:10,11 251:3,8,18 252:17 253:18 256:17 262:19 277:14 296:4 329:16 332:18 334:12 336:18,20 341:7 344:22 346:4 350:10 357:21 377:9 380:17,17 numbers 68:16 110:21 130:11,21 131:10 207:15,19 208:11 213:7 245:15 260:13 261:12 325:10 346:16 356:3 numerical 255:21 O o'clock 368:12 obey 85:19 86:18 objective 113:3 objectives 371:6 obligation 145:5 obliges 273:8 obscure237:20 observation269:22 observe 102:9 obstacle 191:12 obstinate 340:17 obvious 23:6

279:13 288:3 369:1 obviously27:8

30:16 48:17 57:6 188:13 206:15 occasionally

223:18 261:18 occasions 199:2 occupations 240:14 occur293:8 OEM 182:14,20 OEMs 164:18

181:15 offenders 280:5,14 offense 147:13,15

248:21 offer 108:4 171:5 181:3 220:3 292:3 offering 180:18

298:3 office210:16

214:20 231:13 234:9 237:11 249:15 official 239:22

255:18,20 303:8,9 312:14 officially 99:13

316:19 oftentimes 248:11 oh 87:21 157:14 191:1 202:13 217:16 229:9 236:15 246:9 248:15 250:8,16 253:5 259:8 262:5 305:3 308:8 313:15 316:4 322:14 323:9 357:13 oil 125:22 okay4:12 6:4 13:18 15:19 17:9 18:6,8 18:9 24:17 27:5 27:13 28:13 29:5 31:2 33:7 37:3,15 42:22 44:12 48:10 50:16 51:14 52:6 53:16 54:13 61:8 61:21 62:3,7 66:4 66:8 70:16 71:6 72:11,20 73:10 74:4 77:21 80:4 85:5,12,17 87:19 88:6 91:16 92:20 95:14 97:20 98:11 98:18 99:11 100:4 100:5,12 106:3 107:20 110:14 112:6 113:4,6 119:14,18 120:9 122:16 125:5 126:3 132:15,21 135:1,4 137:3 140:22 144:12 150:21 153:18 158:3 160:10 163:21 165:8 167:21 168:6,9 170:11,13 171:20 171:21 172:7,19 173:1 176:13 177:19 180:3 186:1,2 187:7,11 187:22 188:8,9,21 190:18 191:1,21 196:14 203:1 214:17 228:13 231:4 245:6,12 249:19 257:1,19 258:8 259:1 260:21 272:12 275:20 284:8 303:21 304:19 305:13 306:15 309:13 310:8 311:2,3 312:5,18 313:15 318:1 320:2 327:21 329:9 330:2,8 331:18 334:10 335:12 339:6,17 344:17,18 349:20 354:7,11 357:6 360:14 361:10 362:8,12 376:3 377:1,12 380:21 381:8 Oklahoma283:16 old50:15 57:13

247:9 304:22 older 124:5 once22:15 93:15 161:2 185:10 213:1 256:16 oncoming 157:13 one's 228:15,16202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 408**

one-man263:13 onerous 55:14 ones 12:7,8 50:11

50:13 80:12 100:16,22 101:1 185:17 186:2 228:16 238:18 253:6 258:1,6 278:1 280:14 299:2 329:22 360:8 368:10 onesy/twosey232:8 online 32:5 231:14

259:13,22 260:11 261:15 open 15:17 32:16

48:9 51:6 76:6,6 76:16 99:17 100:11 105:20 202:3 256:1 260:22 281:4 310:4,7 311:13 377:17,18 378:3 opened 118:17

345:9 opens 226:15 operate42:8 102:3 165:12 205:17 213:17 230:2 277:9,13 282:12 operating201:11

201:13 213:22 356:22 operation 64:20 109:22 215:13 228:8 245:22 246:1,8 operations 215:1,9 opinion48:22 49:7

98:16 170:12 310:7 322:5 345:3 opinions 98:20

265:8 opportunities 133:11 opportunity 138:14

371:3 opposed 132:6 372:5 option 124:13 131:16 222:5 234:2,6 298:3 327:1 328:16 options 233:3,4

243:9 244:4 247:3 299:1 328:8 oranges 353:8,8 order30:20 41:3

78:12 87:6,7,15 89:16 91:6,22 119:12 144:5 147:7,13 151:9 168:22 199:14 243:21 268:17 ordered42:7 organization 37:11

89:1 180:7 211:16 211:19 220:11,11 221:4 235:11 345:7 370:18 371:4 organizations

224:13 225:6 265:17 organized 82:17,17 110:8 263:8 origin 87:2 original 310:1 ought371:3 outcome 306:20 outdoor70:9 73:22 116:6 164:14 170:17 195:13 198:6 208:12 317:9 319:12 334:8 339:4 341:9 350:8 359:21 outfit215:22 249:3 outlined 158:14 outlive265:1 outreach42:13 outside 34:3 67:17

79:3,11 90:21 134:18 196:17 277:9 358:10 over-complicating 141:3 overall 130:10

290:16 298:2 overhead214:2

216:18 266:21 overlap 278:16

369:22 overnight 113:20 overriding 16:13 oversized79:22

307:16,17 overstate260:4 owned 36:13 owner's215:2 owners266:4 P P-R-O-C-E-E-D-...

4:1 p.m 192:17 301:16

301:17 381:11 package9:3 15:9 18:1 245:4 289:17 packaging256:10 packet212:2 223:5

224:20 packing207:18 page 17:1 18:9,21 paid 34:16 86:9 131:20 pain 133:7 painfully279:12 pair 179:15 227:21 paired 179:11

228:5 302:16 304:7 paper4:21 251:4 paperwork31:10

95:21 96:14 106:11 129:22 191:17 214:6,18 263:12 264:9 paragraph97:3 part7:12 9:7 11:16 14:16 23:4 25:9 32:17 42:10 43:10 44:13,20 58:17 62:10 70:18 80:18 94:11 106:15 116:16 119:8 123:22 126:10,11 130:5 132:3,5 138:18 141:1,16 142:2 152:10,18 153:6,7 180:18 181:12 183:15 188:1,20 193:5 210:1 225:17 227:5 234:14,18 234:22 235:15 254:3 257:10 258:10 266:1 268:4 278:11 294:7 296:12 298:15 302:17 304:8 307:6 311:7 PARTICIPANT

4:10 79:8 88:4 364:16 participate 32:22 188:6 participating 35:11 participation 34:21

35:3,5 particular 13:2

21:3 52:2 69:1 72:16 77:14 88:22 91:1 120:10 147:18 178:22 211:17,18 218:5 317:9 319:6 370:18 particularly 193:11

202:20 209:2 232:6 parties 62:21 84:7 153:13 partners 229:1

288:12,15 289:1 374:18 partnership 229:2 parts 62:9 63:18

68:19 69:22 127:12 133:15 196:2 205:8,10 234:3,12 237:21 237:22 238:13 239:2 241:14 260:17 272:11 302:6 party48:4 63:2 103:19 111:18 231:7 pass4:8,13,20 5:14

5:16 34:13 38:12 102:2 passed227:1

273:18 passes 246:21 passionate287:10

289:11 path 172:11 pathologist 149:6 patient340:16 pause 302:21 paused 303:19 pawing228:19 pay29:20 57:1 137:22 217:7 274:12,12,13 278:8 payback201:15 paying 36:11

219:12 374:6 PDF 18:22 pedantically 323:5 penalizing290:9 penalties45:3 50:1

50:4,20 53:10 56:15 57:4 58:10 58:15,17,22 81:12 86:21 95:16,16 96:7 penalty45:15 95:3

95:18 96:9,10,14 278:8 Penton269:15 people 12:16 13:16 14:11 25:3 29:11 30:21 33:7 39:14202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 409** 54:11 56:16 63:3 68:9 71:4,6,22 75:6 81:1 95:17 102:19 108:16 127:1 135:10,11 136:8,10,10,16,17 140:15 143:3 146:3 147:7 155:18 158:14 180:8 184:11 194:19 196:11 197:19 199:9,17 199:18,22 200:10 200:22 201:7 202:5,19 205:13 208:3 209:20,22 210:21 211:2,2,7 211:11 212:8 214:1,3,20 215:5 217:7 220:22 223:12 224:14 225:6 226:8,19 227:14,18 231:7 236:3,20 238:3 240:16 242:17,19 259:12 260:18 263:7 274:4,19 277:9,14 278:5,6 279:5,13 280:17 280:21 282:10 283:11 285:12,13 289:19 290:12 292:7 321:17 324:18 346:11 350:22 359:16 364:20 368:10 379:14,18 380:9 people's 197:5 198:20 204:10 371:11 perceived 12:6 percent23:18 34:6

35:7 56:19 92:8 130:12,20 131:1 238:13 255:10 269:20 287:22 293:14,16 341:19 370:5,8,8 372:17 372:18 percentage 33:20

235:21 237:20 251:3 perception26:16 145:12 253:16,20 perception's 13:11 perfectly 163:20 perform 124:7

294:21 311:19 performance 68:15

75:3 105:6 157:1 157:5 293:15 307:1,3 313:3 315:21 317:16 324:3 performing75:3 performs 68:14 105:9 period46:17 48:15

49:17 267:21 295:1 309:15 permit35:10

236:12 239:22 240:3 274:15 permits 235:12,14

235:17 237:4 253:21,22 254:2,2 254:4 permitting 236:10

239:21 274:7,8 permutations 70:7 170:22 231:16 perplex 190:20 person 34:11 84:2

85:3,4,7,14 105:5 109:14 111:22 220:7 221:6 227:15 231:21 237:11 373:2 person's 149:8

207:16 personal 229:16 personally91:13

230:2 245:16 249:13 287:17 persons 63:3 perspective28:12

36:4 52:20 73:18 74:12 124:10,20 133:4 175:8 219:20 250:20 265:14 pert340:21 pertinent211:7 pervasive270:16 phase 159:7 PHCC 193:2 199:19 201:7 216:10 philosophy229:16 phone208:22

214:21 220:18 223:9 233:13 phonecall270:15 physical 328:14 physically 134:18

201:1 267:5 329:8 physics 197:14,18

292:10 pick233:13 319:16 picking246:5

364:13,20 picture 17:16 209:5

209:8 pictures 208:22 piece21:3 36:15

72:16 82:11 95:12 120:11 143:17 153:15 154:1 185:7 192:11 198:18 232:5 244:6 260:9 pieces 132:1 135:20 135:22 137:19 145:22 153:12 241:15 pipeline 367:6,22 pipes 367:12 pitch 197:20,20 pitched 65:3 pitches 201:9 place24:5 30:2 70:20 119:13 132:7 164:5 183:8 196:1,2,3,4 243:21 280:9,16 280:22 places 39:6 217:6

236:6,7,13 284:5 plain282:8 plan 16:5,13 49:22

98:15 99:22 100:10 112:15 143:22 150:19 151:9,18 plane275:1 planned233:9

234:6 243:19 282:17,18 planning211:14

327:3 plant374:2 play78:8 82:15 104:5,5 121:22 134:13 142:15 221:16 234:3 352:10 375:15 player287:17 playing27:12 56:5

259:6 277:4 plays 57:7 Plaza 1:9 please 6:17 8:9,10 10:10,17 11:1 18:20 43:5 62:20 67:5,22 81:14 86:5 161:21 162:12 197:6,7 366:17 plenty270:14 plenum23:3 plethora 157:18 171:1 plug256:14 plumbing268:11

268:13,15 Plumbing-Heati...

2:3 Plural250:1 plus 193:2 345:6 poached253:3 pocket 138:1 point5:10 13:17 16:7 20:9,21 24:8 24:17 26:1,18 27:1 29:6 36:21 38:10 41:21 46:8 46:14 48:11,17 55:10 57:19 60:16 62:2 63:12 68:21 70:16 73:6,14 77:20 90:22 91:17 93:21 107:7 109:6 113:9 143:21 144:1,10 146:7 150:12,13 152:7 159:8 161:7 164:2 167:16 189:20 219:13 222:4,21 226:11 255:13 257:7 264:1 265:1 278:22 279:22 280:2 281:3 291:21 296:16,17 296:20 297:3 329:18 330:3,20 335:9 348:9 353:9 353:14 354:20 372:15 378:17,19 pointed236:7

291:22 345:13 pointing 103:7

252:20 points 11:9,11

24:21 41:18 250:18 262:17 325:15 poisoned215:7 police42:17 149:3 policemen 109:17 109:21 policies 52:18

356:7 policy 6:20 45:8,9

46:16 52:12 53:4 53:8,11,12 57:3202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 410** 58:9 96:12 109:7 121:19 129:20 253:13 pool275:22 276:15 poor209:17 pop 217:7 popped 136:5 portal 336:19 Porter 1:20 116:4 168:12,15,16,16 168:20 169:3 170:8,8,12 184:21 184:21 185:9,21 230:18,22 231:5 232:10,11 234:19 235:1 257:22 275:6,6 285:15 286:14,14 287:5 326:10,11 327:18 328:9,17,21 329:9 329:19 330:2,8 349:7,12,21 352:10,19,22 364:12,18 375:10 376:3,7,17 378:14 portion 18:20

44:17 51:13 221:21 posed 169:8 191:4

250:19 312:16 position 13:13

44:21 87:7 97:17 99:2 161:7 303:9 322:2 326:17 positive41:13

80:12,14 290:3,3 possession 66:15

66:19 possibilities 321:8 possibility 109:4

328:14 possible7:18 35:2

37:11,20 41:13 98:21 128:5 180:9 180:19 181:6,13 223:20 225:9 241:19 278:14 329:8 330:14 344:16 possibly 39:19

41:14 65:4 67:13 70:10 79:3 107:9 111:10 194:18 210:22 295:21 365:4 post209:3,7 post-January 188:13 pot 142:15 potential 256:6

294:8 potentially 39:5

41:3,8 348:4 363:1 power29:20 374:2 PRA 106:18 107:6 107:12 191:4,5,11 191:16 practical 16:9 110:1 254:22 323:13 practicality 363:9 practice 156:10,11 157:16 367:10 pre-SEER 160:8,9 precedent40:6 preclude 359:3,11 predict372:8 preferred 252:22 prepare223:2 presence216:11 present 1:11 2:6

78:9 197:19 212:5 presentation 3:11

3:16 5:4,6 59:1 74:8 225:3 251:12 258:12 presentations

58:16 presented 295:7 presents 19:4 presiding 1:10 pressure293:5

375:4,13 pressures 133:1 134:7 135:10 194:18 282:1 prestigious 242:20 presumably 153:3

336:14 presume 106:16 162:21 218:11 presuming92:3 presumption 12:18

367:14 presumptive 159:20 pretty29:18 30:9

34:6 37:1 90:21 106:7 161:4 166:5 166:7 171:22,22 194:14 198:4 210:11 212:16 258:11 279:5 291:19 348:10,13 349:17 369:1 prevalent 158:10

260:14 prevent297:17 previous 223:14 previously 13:20 112:3 363:2 price 124:11 139:12 140:13 205:20 220:5 245:7 249:8 262:21,22 266:20 267:22 primarily 243:14 primary232:17 principle280:12,19 print 17:21 22:11

225:11 prior49:13 60:19 115:13 128:8 193:2 priority 252:8 private 63:15 102:12 104:1 109:1,4 privy205:17 pro-actively 371:15 probably9:11 10:12 38:2 48:12 64:4 76:14 77:8 89:5,6 127:5 134:6 158:20 164:18 186:17 193:22 194:4,5 206:21,22 208:14 211:9 214:8,10 215:22 220:13 232:3 238:13 239:3 246:2,3 247:16 249:18 260:16 264:4 271:12 279:8 288:4 289:12 293:6 303:7 355:2 366:16 problem 13:1 120:3 129:10 148:21 162:3 193:19 195:11 229:18,19 230:1 241:4,6 256:19 260:5 266:1 278:15 282:16 286:19 287:2 339:20 340:2,5,12 340:14,16,20 341:3 345:18 365:5 380:3 problem's 347:2 problems 6:4 198:19 procedure 89:5,8

89:19 174:1,7 175:10 219:5 302:19 304:4,10 305:15,20 307:6 308:1,15 309:6,7 311:18 313:4,8,14 315:18 317:11 322:8,20 323:2 325:11 338:16 procedures 62:13

93:3 172:1 314:10 329:15 346:1 proceed 195:12

203:9 proceeding7:11 proceedure 302:12 process 23:12

30:14 35:9 41:5 44:3 88:11 89:14 89:15,22 90:17 91:4 107:6 112:7 142:3 143:15 182:17 183:20 219:5 256:1,5 264:20 316:18 319:3 326:2,12 373:2,16 375:4,14 375:22 378:13 processes 91:13 produce 63:4 106:17 231:3 producers 118:18 producing 68:10

68:20 product 14:20 24:3

25:8 28:4 57:13 64:2,17 65:20 74:13,15 75:22 76:4 80:9,17 82:9 83:2,8 92:11,12 93:5 94:10,12 95:6 101:15,19,21 102:13 103:7 105:7,9,10 158:9 158:12 159:21 161:13 229:6 232:21 243:8 257:17 258:6 273:6 288:14 322:4,5 323:17 330:14 332:4 347:5 359:1 364:21 370:6 379:6 product's 83:2 production 67:10 154:7 342:9,20 productivity 217:5202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 411** products7:4 8:5 15:14 25:1,2 42:2 45:4 56:17 62:14 62:18 68:1,12 70:1 81:17 82:8 86:13 88:18,21 89:3,11 91:11 92:19 97:9 108:16 139:16 158:3,8,17 173:10 200:22 282:10 324:16 360:20 367:3,4 377:21 professional

200:20 235:10 268:17,19 270:9 270:10,13 294:9 professionalism

203:4 profile242:20 profit213:13 program29:19

32:22 33:6 35:12 38:4,9 42:5,10,11 43:19 62:8 67:1 68:1,6,8 71:12 93:19 95:5 98:22 99:18 112:19 181:1,4 182:4,6 184:2 185:17 216:14 265:16 277:13 292:10 322:11 372:4 380:1 programs 34:21

35:6,14,20 40:7 66:19 139:7 142:8 170:19 208:20,21 216:12 303:10 prohibit 100:18

319:7 prohibited75:18

95:17 96:17,19 97:7,18 100:22 101:5 102:7,10 103:9,16,18,20 104:8,14 prohibiting 331:9 prohibitive97:5 project 139:9

201:13 204:22 205:1 245:10,10 260:8 projected 201:10 projecting 199:15 projections 202:10 promise 345:20 promised 113:7 promulgate7:3 promulgated 17:6

50:10 178:10 prone 133:9 propane 34:8 proper79:16 124:17 231:10 properly91:15 126:20 133:10 184:9 255:9 266:20 267:22 268:2 properties 223:15 proposal254:22

295:7,7 proposals 180:13 proposed 81:12 185:4 369:7 proposing 354:21 protect276:12 protected 111:10 111:11 Protection 134:3 prove 346:8 provide25:12,18

28:22 42:6,13 71:14 72:4 93:12 97:2,13 101:14 109:1 131:19 151:17 183:1 200:4 217:15 231:8 232:13 284:13 297:8 298:5 350:10 provided 119:20 providing 329:7 provision 8:8 13:3 99:3,14 105:16 296:21 315:7 provisions7:10,16

63:11 308:1 PSEs293:5 public7:9 14:4

32:1,2 38:11 41:12 42:7 69:20 70:16 80:4,6,7 94:6 373:8 publicly 32:6 publish 318:15 published 32:10

312:7 publishing 312:13 pull 17:6 242:19

263:16,18 pulled 155:1

235:18 253:22 338:13 pulling264:20

269:8 342:20 pulls 194:20 264:8 pump 117:12,14,18 117:19 270:8 276:1 pumps 289:15

290:1 punch257:2

346:15 356:2 punish280:13 punishable 86:19 punishing280:5 pup 133:6 purchase25:8,15 119:6 218:3 291:2 purchased 34:7

206:15 255:6 323:16 purchaser 109:11 purchases 206:19

233:9 pure75:22 purely 173:3 purpose 16:3 49:19

65:21 74:18,22 283:7 362:13 purposes 50:6

62:16,22 98:19 101:11 111:16 121:18 127:21 309:8 336:16 358:3 364:13 pursuant338:16 pursue47:9 96:13 108:12 pursued 108:7 push 112:5 335:21 pushed 308:16 put9:18 10:4 13:13

24:5 25:19 28:10 30:2 33:8 55:3 70:15 72:1 75:7 78:22 79:17,18,20 118:22 119:3 124:8 134:9 135:2 138:17,21 141:9 142:2 150:14 154:10 155:11 158:19 175:13 179:7 180:1 181:17,22 182:6,7 184:6 189:7 195:17 196:9 198:9 202:16 208:17 212:1 216:6 223:4 225:2 228:1 245:7 255:1 265:14 269:5 272:20 293:5 295:19 305:1 316:22 330:19 331:11,12 332:4 334:15 342:15 345:21 351:10,18 351:22 358:11 367:2 puts 224:20 291:5

313:16 putting 39:15 55:4 127:9 128:7,14 137:2,7 169:14 203:9 277:22 280:15 283:3 293:22 297:17 313:16 316:18 336:12 362:18 puzzle 82:11 132:2 Q QI255:3,14,21 qualified 31:5

34:12 qualify 139:18

190:6 244:5 quality 5:5 255:15

255:22 370:15 quantities 280:18 quantity205:19 quarter266:9 quell 15:18 question9:16

11:22 12:13 13:19 15:20 16:1 19:20 20:13 21:8 31:20 33:13 34:20 39:9 43:13,16 47:22 48:4 52:12 59:12 60:1,11,16,19 61:2,2,4,7,22 65:18 66:4 75:9 76:17 80:3 82:20 83:12 87:21 88:12 90:6 93:22 95:12 107:22 108:22 109:20 112:7,8 115:11,17,22 116:14 122:20 123:1 127:20 128:6 143:20 145:12 146:19 147:3,19 148:6 149:16 152:6,15 152:21 153:2,5,6 154:8 155:12 156:8,13 160:3 161:10,11,16 162:6,14,20 163:17 164:3 165:2,7,14,19 169:7,8,11,22202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 412** 170:2,9,16 172:20 172:22 173:5 175:1,3,10 176:14 177:12,13 178:9 182:12 183:14 185:3 186:19 187:21,22 188:2 188:17 189:6 190:4,8,16 191:4 192:3 227:14 230:3 235:18 238:4,8 243:4 252:16 259:15 264:14,19 265:6,8 272:13 296:12 298:20,21 299:10 303:22 306:10 309:1 310:2,4,18 311:4,14,16 312:12 315:4 316:3,6,15 317:20 317:21 318:4,6 323:20 330:9 331:10 332:11 338:6,18 339:2 343:13 356:6 369:6 question's 278:11 questions 10:18

20:21 33:11 58:22 59:2,6 66:3 73:3 90:14 113:5 115:2 116:14 121:14,21 153:10 174:5 175:5 188:12 190:19 204:8 210:7 227:6 250:19 259:2 301:19 302:4,5 310:12 312:6,9,15 374:8 quick 33:12 79:14

96:18 103:13 129:12 258:10 289:13 quickly 282:21

364:7 quit 118:14 189:12 quite58:19 70:7,11

238:21 287:6 326:13 328:2 365:1,6 quo 327:16 quota367:18 quote212:20 quotes 234:7 261:8 R R338:1 R-22 310:18 311:7

311:9,15 R&D 342:8 R22 114:19 115:8 118:15,19 119:10 119:16,17 120:1 121:15,16 122:2 122:20 123:13 124:12,14 125:20 128:9,14 132:2 143:10 144:2,6 151:1,5 152:6,8 153:14 155:13 156:9 157:16 158:3,8 159:7,9 159:18 160:9,11 186:11 R410A 158:8 186:12,21 rabbit271:4 radar 136:7 224:1

277:10 rail 136:16 rainbow55:18 raise 121:5 raised 185:13 raises 264:13 raising52:9 59:2 ramifications

60:18 115:12 188:3,12 ran 193:3 203:5

209:7 267:5 Rand 1:13 range 18:15 19:5,6

26:12 35:7 55:1 90:21 157:22 162:10 165:8 169:13,15 179:21 247:17 300:21 301:2 315:21 317:15 321:7 322:4,9,17 324:13 331:14,14,15,17 332:3,11 333:1,4 334:4,13,15 335:1 336:3,11,13,21 337:17 338:1,7,10 338:17 342:10,18 343:4 344:5 345:22 348:18 351:18,21 352:15 352:18 354:11,12 354:13,14 355:4 355:12 356:18 359:22 367:1 377:5,19,22 378:17,20 379:7 380:22 381:1 ranges 359:20 rarely219:7

262:21 ratable 163:8 rate5:6 29:21

37:18 173:10,12 184:9 226:13 293:3 314:11 324:16 339:11 351:2 rate-pair 35:21 rated 117:19

181:11 304:17 309:20 311:15 315:6 rates 34:17 38:13

42:6 297:15 rating 8:16 17:19

22:11 69:4,10 72:16 119:16,19 157:17,18,20 161:16 163:12,13 163:18 164:9,20 166:15 172:5,12 172:14,14,15 173:3,12,22 174:7 174:8,17,18 175:13 176:2,2 177:1 179:1 181:21 183:6 184:12 255:11 300:21 308:9,11 309:15,21 310:2 311:9 313:5 315:19 318:6 332:7 335:22 336:10 337:5,9 338:15,19 352:7 353:7 354:18 356:4,19 358:1 359:4,6 362:20 ratings 110:9

157:18 165:8 166:4 182:3 308:2 309:9 335:6 338:8 338:11 342:10 356:12 362:16 378:1,22 ratio72:17 Rawald 1:21 3:12

5:11 10:19,22 11:3,8 12:1,13 14:3,21 16:2 20:1 20:4,7,12 21:5,9 21:17 22:2,13,20 26:9,18 27:4,6 28:5,7,13,18 29:6 30:19 31:2 32:4 32:11,14 33:2,15 35:15 36:20 37:3 37:10,15 38:15,19 40:13 41:4,10 42:22 43:12 44:5 44:12 46:7 48:3 48:16 49:2,6,14 49:18 50:5,18,22 51:5,11,15 52:6,9 52:18 53:22 54:5 54:20 55:22 56:12 56:18 57:2,18 58:11,14 59:5,11 60:12,20 61:1,8 61:12,21 65:9,18 66:3,8,21 70:22 71:19 72:11,18 73:3,10,17 74:5,9 74:18 75:15 76:5 76:18 77:15,20 78:20 79:10 80:1 83:13,17 84:3,14 85:4,8,13,18 86:17 87:1,4,11 87:19,21 88:6,8 90:7,20 92:1,7,16 97:11,16,21 98:8 98:13,19 99:8,12 100:6,13,16 104:22 105:16 106:13,21 107:4 107:16,18 108:9 108:11 109:6,13 109:19 110:10,14 110:22 111:3,19 112:12,22 113:5 113:12 114:4 115:1,4 116:3,11 117:4,20 118:7 119:22 120:9,14 120:20 121:1,15 121:22 122:9,12 122:16 123:3,9,16 124:21 125:3,5 127:15,18 128:3 128:12,21 129:9 129:13 130:8,17 131:5,22 132:14 132:21 141:12 142:6,12 143:8 144:15 145:3,15 145:20 146:9,17 147:1,9,22 148:14 150:11,17,21 151:20 152:2,14 154:4 155:6 156:3 156:6,14,21 158:1 158:19 159:5 160:10,21 161:2,8 162:2,16 163:9,14202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 413** 163:21 165:1,7,17 165:21 166:17,21 167:15 168:14 169:6,11,21 170:11,13 172:9 172:19 176:13 177:3,8,11,20 178:14,18 179:9 179:22 180:4 185:12 186:1,6,13 186:19 187:3,7,11 187:16 188:7,19 189:1 190:3,12,18 191:1,16,20,22 192:4 207:5 208:1 208:11 210:9,19 211:10,17,20 212:3,10 213:20 214:13,17 216:17 219:9,17 230:17 235:5 237:14 238:3 239:9,12,14 243:2 246:11 250:12,16 255:12 256:7,15,19,22 257:19 258:8 259:1 262:3,5,8 264:13,22 271:15 277:5 279:15 280:10 281:10,12 282:13 283:12 287:3 290:5 291:20 295:20 296:15 297:13 298:1,10,18 299:22 300:9 303:15,19 305:2 305:13,19 306:16 311:5,13 314:15 314:19 316:9 318:5,16 319:15 319:19 320:2 321:22 323:9 324:6,17 329:10 329:21 330:4,10 336:8 337:7,13,16 368:17 369:4 374:10,15 375:13 376:5,13,22 377:8 377:11 378:5 RAWLAD 311:22 Ray 1:14 29:8

33:13 36:20 236:7 258:8 291:20 292:7,18 Ray's 290:5 re-look 121:11 reach242:18 reaching276:12

294:3 react 188:5 282:20

372:12 reacted 282:16 reacting 193:19 reactionary 204:9 reactive 282:16,19 read7:18 52:12

66:12 316:12,19 331:4 reading 317:14 reads 116:15 179:2 ready 62:3 192:13

205:7 246:7 316:20 real79:14 96:18

103:13 124:16 131:9 258:14 291:18 372:15 realities 264:11 reality 27:12,20

80:2 240:20 271:8 330:21 realize 378:9 realized9:10 really 22:22 26:5

36:1 37:6 38:17 39:2 44:14 46:19 51:22 67:3 73:13 76:15,17 79:2 102:15 103:2 115:6 117:22 127:5 129:17 133:20,21 136:4,6 136:9 139:7 148:20 149:18 155:11 160:2,12 164:18 165:7 167:18 176:15,20 185:4 195:14,21 196:8,21 199:8 205:3 206:4 208:15 209:17 211:1 214:3 222:1 229:3 230:4 231:19 233:5,10 238:19 239:4 249:12,13 253:13 254:11 262:12 276:2 279:16 284:21 286:4,7,11 286:17,21 306:22 307:3 313:11 324:5,19 327:15 338:18 341:2 347:12 351:8 353:22 365:15 369:20 373:15 374:12 375:1 381:5 reason 13:19 60:16

66:9 108:1 158:10 176:22 199:5 276:10 320:11 321:18 341:17 359:19 reasonably 155:10 reasoning 12:3 reasons42:8 81:7

140:1 249:16 rebate 34:15 35:5

291:7 rebates 29:22

30:17,22 42:2 recall 159:2 receipt206:16 receive 30:3 191:10 reclarify 300:1 recommend 243:17

258:17 260:8 recommended 17:4 record71:18 86:21 113:16 191:5,7 192:8,16 207:9,20 210:10 266:19 301:16,17 316:22 319:1,18 record-keeping

204:15 206:6 207:6 250:21 recorded 301:20 records 82:6,9,13

82:16,21 83:3,10 94:22 97:2,15 101:14 106:7,10 106:17 107:17 110:16,17,20 112:9 207:21 210:14 211:4 240:22 251:2,4,14 251:17 273:3 286:5 recover 38:13 red24:7 364:11 redacted 111:6,7 redefine288:18 reduction 106:12

191:17 redundant 103:3 refer5:18,21 16:18 reference 239:18

265:20 referenced 332:8 referred 12:4 referring 5:11

79:14 151:14 reflect296:2

321:12 reflected 81:13 reflective 156:19 reflects 299:18

300:1 refresher43:3

366:16 refrigerant 119:4,8

121:7 126:20 187:14 270:8 refrigeration 2:2

216:8 217:2 refrigerator96:5 refused 85:19 reg299:19 337:1

340:6 regard 13:22 15:22 regarding 8:10

24:3 44:22 45:12 46:16 81:17 103:10 110:6 regardless 153:14

155:13 187:10,13 187:14 304:18 315:20 317:15 regards 112:8

285:4 312:15 region7:21 8:3,6

8:10,12 18:2 47:8 77:14 159:22 161:19 165:12 179:18 282:20 318:9 319:9 346:3 348:6 regional 1:3 6:13

7:3,12,14 11:6,16 11:17 18:13 19:3 39:12,20 44:17,22 45:3,17 47:4,12 49:19 50:6,9 52:3 53:9 61:22 75:17 75:20 77:5,18 98:1 99:3 104:4 105:17 109:7 116:2 117:13 121:12 126:6,14 128:16 129:21 131:14 152:9,12 161:17 162:22 164:4 173:5 187:20 296:22 302:16 309:4,11 309:16 327:17,21 342:13 347:17 366:2 regionally 108:3

122:19 regions 179:10

282:11202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 414** register217:22

218:7,8 231:6 registered 218:2,8 registry 230:7 regs7:15 183:16

300:2,20 315:7 318:19,22 319:2 319:15 331:16,18 336:5 regular 81:3 300:2 regularly71:9 regulate 55:15

140:20 regulation9:10

74:20 246:22 258:16 273:1 277:3,11 290:8 299:17,18 regulation's 299:13 regulations 21:13

39:16 53:6 74:21 80:21 81:16 82:10 84:18 96:20 276:1 276:4,6,16 321:11 321:12 327:5 regulatory40:2

365:22 reiterating 115:3 related 90:14

134:19 273:6 relates 9:13 104:8

182:1 relating221:21 relationship 30:10

37:7 41:6 211:15 211:16 218:9 220:20 229:12 248:22 249:20 253:4 326:13 relationships

223:12,14 233:16 relatively 152:21

167:12 relay270:2 relayed 302:7 releasable 111:14 release 111:10,21 released 99:13 releasing 112:5

286:2 relevant 16:16 73:2

85:10 180:17 381:3 reliable 238:20 relied 82:3 relief 108:8,12 relies 92:9 228:22 reluctance286:12 rely23:12 68:22

81:21 90:2 216:4 216:5 218:19 231:2 244:3 relying26:17 remain 357:14 remained 139:20 remarkably 176:15 remember9:5,6

213:8 remind 6:14 7:22 reminded 31:20 reminding 191:2 remote 34:6 remove 166:5

167:3 removed 381:2 removing 167:14 renovation 194:16 rep 14:5 repair 127:13,14

189:4 190:1 193:15 194:16 repairable 195:14 repeat43:16

121:18 211:12 replace 116:17

123:21 128:22 189:15 238:1 240:1 241:22 282:21,22 replacement

116:15 117:11 118:16 119:9 123:14 128:7,15 130:2 132:3,6,9 144:14 152:10 158:13 187:19 190:5,6 238:14 239:2 243:19 254:3 304:14 305:4 310:13 313:2 replacing 34:1

35:10 127:13 237:21 reply 87:3 report 88:10 97:7

110:2 137:3 273:8 reported 273:3 reporter 317:2 reporting 80:13

153:3 reports74:11

88:15 represent51:22

235:12 287:21 321:3 representation

157:3 322:12 332:3 361:1,6 representational

238:7 representations

322:13 representative

313:9 represented 256:9

288:2 306:22 315:21,22 317:16 represents 321:7

322:3 request 82:1 83:20

83:21 84:1 110:7 111:4,15 121:4,10 258:5 376:21 requesting 112:2 requests 110:20 require71:13

78:11 181:8 255:3 356:10 required 8:14 9:22

28:22 68:11,15 82:5 84:22 88:20 89:1 94:19 129:2 153:13,22 156:13 254:2,3 311:19 312:3 requirement 19:13

75:5 79:15 82:4,7 82:12 83:7 86:22 88:21 89:10 141:3 146:6 153:7 171:10,10 174:15 252:12 318:10 requirements 16:6

35:22 91:7,20 101:19 131:21 191:4,8 236:13 274:19 288:12 318:7 332:5 345:21 requires 236:12 requiring 157:12 research 191:3

258:6 292:9 resentment326:7 reserve 162:15 residences 193:14 residential 193:9

193:10 194:2 205:15 215:17,20 239:6,6 240:6 resonate 139:8 resource 326:1 resources 1:19

140:7 210:1 respect26:13 37:5

276:22 responding204:10

287:3 response 34:19

296:13 303:10 responses 12:21 responsibilities

51:4 responsibility

57:16 63:19 105:5 responsible 12:11

21:21 42:19 48:14 49:1 55:11 92:4 105:4,11 164:9,20 165:9 169:18 236:20 rest 196:4 271:3 restate 303:13

335:19 375:11 resubmit 191:19 result52:1 138:3

307:2 374:2 resulting 315:19

317:14 results44:16 resumed 113:17

192:17 retail 247:4,4

315:15 317:8 retailer 64:6,13

66:17,18 retailers 63:21 64:8

66:14,14 103:15 103:17,19 retain 82:6,8,12

107:9 retained 82:22 retaining 83:10

106:17 retention 86:22

106:7 191:6 192:6 192:8 207:9 210:10 rethink295:12 retire 199:17 retro-fits 193:16 retroactively

371:14 return220:15 returns72:21

324:21 review 309:11

372:3 reviewing256:6 revised 294:20 reward 146:11 rewarding 146:3 Rheem 1:19 19:19

59:8 73:13 127:5202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 415** 226:3 247:10 262:11,14 307:13 314:7 353:11 rich209:18 Rick 170:13 rid44:17 140:11 rifle 273:20 right5:1 11:8

13:14 14:3,21 16:2 20:7,12 21:5 22:2,7 24:10,14 26:17 27:2 28:7 32:3 33:2 36:10 38:15 40:2,13,18 41:4 46:7 49:2 51:5 52:2,18 57:2 58:6,13 60:12 61:2,12 66:9 69:1 71:2,5 72:18 76:18,22 78:11 79:19,20 80:8 83:16 84:3 85:8 87:1,10 88:8 89:11,21 92:1,10 94:15 96:14 99:8 100:18 105:16 106:20 109:1,20 110:22 111:3 115:4,20 116:11 117:20 120:3,18 120:20 121:5 122:9,12 126:1 127:18 128:3,20 131:13 135:2 141:12 142:12 145:2,20 147:9 155:1,7 158:22 160:18 161:1,8 162:16,20 163:11 167:20,22,22 168:17 169:3,10 170:10 171:22 177:10 179:2,20 183:13 184:7,15 185:6,8 187:16 188:7,16 192:18 200:8 203:10 205:1 208:1 211:10 212:14 214:19 216:18,21 219:9 232:13 233:19 234:14 239:9 248:18 252:9,9 254:18 256:11,15 257:13 257:17,20 261:5 265:2,4,4 267:17 270:13,20,22 271:7,15 272:14 274:6,21,22 275:2 277:5,18 280:16 281:21 284:13 290:12 291:2,6,20 292:17 294:3,6,7 296:19 298:1,18 299:16 301:20,21 306:6,8,11,16 309:6 311:21 318:12,16,17 324:17 327:18 328:20 329:1,13 330:2,10 331:10 331:21 333:3,11 333:19 334:1,5,18 335:2,13,15 336:6 336:8 337:7,13 338:2,12 340:16 341:12,15 342:22 351:16 352:19,22 359:20 360:7,18 361:4,15,18 364:1 365:3,4 369:13,16 377:3,13 380:13 rights 108:19 ringing 194:21 risk 123:7 road 140:16 215:16

216:20 rob 326:21 335:15 rocket243:1 Rocky 1:22 115:18 115:18 116:13,20 117:7,9,9 118:6 118:10 129:14 130:9,15,19 131:12 132:13 156:1,5 181:14 182:16,22 183:10 183:13,22 265:7,7 283:9,12,13,13 287:8 303:12 318:18 319:2 331:16,20 332:2 332:14,21 333:9 333:19 334:6,11 334:18 335:2,14 345:18 346:17 347:9,14 357:11 357:16 role57:7 76:13

143:14 275:16 374:17 375:3,12 375:17 roles 65:1 roll 294:12 378:12 roofs 293:22 room 1:8 5:7 138:2

138:21 149:18 169:5 202:12 270:19 291:15 rough242:10 roughly267:14

287:21 293:16 round 326:4

344:11 route 181:6 379:8 routine 105:22

106:10 238:22 routinely 104:3

105:15 ROY2:19 rule7:6,7 10:11,12

10:14,16 14:12,18 17:12 25:10,10 43:4 50:21 52:13 54:4 65:2 87:15 90:12 91:12 116:15 118:8 119:9 164:13 178:10,10 180:11 279:19 281:4 321:20 325:18 326:4 336:10 378:12 rules7:7 51:3

64:21,22 80:18 134:4 135:15 152:19 183:7 203:16 278:6 run 139:4 154:15

167:19 168:6 169:2 266:17 268:5 293:10 318:7 379:2 running 138:5

168:7,8 204:9 210:16 219:19 345:7 364:5 runs 66:17 203:5

215:3 rural 2:13 35:2 S S 169:1 Sachs 2:1 5:8 22:21

22:21 24:1 35:17 38:7,16 78:1 79:6 91:9 123:2,4,10 123:17 125:1,4,15 125:20 126:2,15 158:22 159:6 165:20 166:2,22 167:6,9,20 168:2 169:4,10 171:19 173:13 180:5 182:9,21 183:8,12 183:14 184:16 185:8 190:10,14 269:10 292:6,19 293:9 295:10,15 295:18 296:16 297:11,14 299:19 300:11 304:20 305:3,18,22 306:7 308:6,10 316:1,4 316:21 321:14 360:13 361:5 365:7 367:5,21 368:9,14,20 369:10,19 379:11 380:18 381:1 safe297:7 safeguard24:5 sale 67:11 108:15 171:5 180:9,14 181:9 221:14 235:2 236:2 273:6 282:20 346:11 sales 33:20 57:15

57:21 173:21 197:19,20 220:1 221:6,9,21 223:5 259:3 261:3 270:1 284:15 315:15 317:8 319:4,8,13 319:17 332:16 333:13,22 334:7 334:16,21 335:5 336:1,19 337:11 339:3,7 342:14 344:3 346:7 348:10,15 350:3 350:10,14 351:19 360:1,16 377:6,15 salesman224:18

225:7 salesman's 224:19 salesperson220:6 salute293:18,21 sample 10:15

302:19 sanction 146:12 sanctioning 145:7 146:4 sand 345:1 satisfy 25:17 90:18

374:8 save 123:19 131:19

209:22 242:6 290:15 353:16 saves 131:15 savings 124:11 131:21 370:1 savvy26:1 254:21 saw244:16 359:6 saying 13:16 32:5202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 416** 40:14 49:18 52:14 52:15,21 53:6 54:9 67:2 72:12 76:10 80:15 82:1 84:10,21 87:7,13 98:4 99:17 116:18 118:1 121:3 128:18 132:1 141:18,19 143:2 145:17 147:10,10 147:16 148:15 149:18 154:20 155:3 165:4 169:19 185:19 187:4 219:10,20 244:3,6 248:2 259:21,21 270:16 270:17 274:1 298:2,9,14,19 303:3 310:14 322:14 323:13 325:16 328:18 335:18 336:9 337:2 338:17 347:15 348:2 353:10 354:12 360:4 362:1 363:13 says 13:4 15:9 18:15 19:13,21 20:5 53:8 74:15 85:14 94:9 97:3 97:13 102:16 131:7 149:4 163:10 179:10,14 179:15 181:9,18 182:19 183:3 184:14,14 189:13 209:6 231:4 233:5 263:19 266:10 294:20 297:20 299:18 300:1 309:7,11,18 336:11 346:14,19 347:9,10 348:12 349:1,19 357:9,21 361:14 scale72:9 279:3 324:4 scaled77:1 scan246:16 scare269:20 scenario 243:8

322:16,17 355:15 355:18 scenarios 50:15 schedule221:7,8 scheduling239:8 scheme27:14 63:7 122:4 schemes40:3 school 233:17 Science 199:21 scientists 243:1 scope75:9 77:16 105:19 147:12 169:21 176:14 177:10,12 208:4 SCOTT 1:16 screw288:21 289:5 screwing 196:4

204:4 sealed 119:1 search251:18 searchable251:6 season205:21

235:17 seat4:4 192:22 second25:9 112:7 129:15 160:18 163:3 224:22 233:3 269:6 309:1 311:3 315:3,4 345:7 secondary 120:8 seconds 369:3 secret260:5 secretary 84:19 section7:19,19

212:15,18 secure249:18 secures 249:17 security4:16 7:2 see5:7 12:18 17:3,5 17:7 18:5 22:17 26:9 28:3,15 30:21 35:12 46:11 48:20 56:6 61:11 70:5 73:1 86:3,13 94:14 115:9 116:3 120:2 136:6 149:17 151:6 152:4 169:20 181:16 220:2 229:8 231:16,20 237:9 247:16 255:2 270:1 273:22 287:1 296:9 298:22 325:1,1,3 326:5 333:2 358:15,17 364:13 365:5 368:17 375:17 376:18,20 seeing 33:22 36:15

49:8 seek56:15 seeking45:2 seen24:21 25:2

54:17 SEER 8:7,15 11:15

11:15 17:19 18:11 18:14 19:4,10,15 21:12 22:17 55:3 60:5,8 61:3,3,7 70:12,21 72:19,21 72:22 75:7 79:18 79:21 114:19,22 115:14 116:5,6,7 116:16,22 117:19 119:15,21 120:3,5 120:5 121:10 124:6,7,14 126:14 128:19 138:5 144:6,22 151:2 157:3 158:2,2,9 158:12,17 159:1 159:12,14,22 161:12,15,15,18 162:19 163:5,8 164:10 166:15 167:1 171:2 172:5 174:17 175:17 178:12 183:21,21 187:10 261:11 329:17 356:4 SEER-10 305:1,9 SEER-13 196:14

201:10 SEER-14 196:16

201:20 203:13,14 295:1 305:10 SEER-16203:15

220:4 SEER-18 196:9

220:4 sees 226:13 266:7 segment212:9,10

212:11 226:8 233:10 segregate278:13 selected 194:4

315:13 317:6 selecting 194:5 selection 195:15

231:9 selective 248:12,14 self-certification

68:6 selfish 201:3 sell 64:3,18,19

65:16 67:8 95:10 102:19 104:2 117:1,16 122:8 139:9,15 171:15 172:16 174:5 195:6,8 206:3 238:20 243:14,18 283:16,19 285:21 285:22 288:3,9,13 288:14 291:13 314:13 332:22 343:5,9 346:3,8 346:20,21 361:17 seller273:7 selling 56:17 65:21

67:12 103:1,5 133:20 139:16 144:13 159:19 165:10 174:2 200:21 283:14 289:2 337:20 seminars 216:6

217:2 send 33:4 37:8

81:22 354:16 sending216:19 sense 16:10 48:13

52:3 64:21 79:1 80:2 100:13 108:2 149:17 188:8 264:14 284:21 366:6 373:9 375:8 sensibly 365:16 sensitive40:15

56:4 67:14 71:7 sent 103:15 sentences 280:19 separate 160:22 185:15 363:4 366:5 separately 319:11 Separation 367:6 serial 110:21

207:14,19 218:12 251:8,18 serious 379:17 service 119:6 126:10,11 127:12 194:20 195:5 199:14 209:1 221:4 238:15,22 services 34:10 servicing 140:20 141:1 session5:22 232:12 set 8:21 40:6 75:12 119:2 134:17 137:17 153:10 183:18 199:3 228:5 339:10 sets 134:16 165:15

249:14 settled7:10 settlement44:14202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 417** 44:16,21 51:17 52:22 seven215:21 274:1 shady200:9 shaking 335:17

337:1 342:6 shaming94:6 share248:13,17

252:22 285:7 286:12 287:18 shared285:11

294:19 sharing207:22 sheet4:21 369:17 sheet's4:22 SHEPERD296:19

297:19 298:7 Shepherd2:2

28:21 29:5 83:11 83:15 98:2,11,18 99:1,11 100:5,12 108:6,6,10 145:11 145:16 146:8,13 146:18 147:2,17 148:1 150:3 shifting225:19 shingle269:5 ship 118:18 127:22 148:12 152:8 175:18 176:7,9 361:19,20,21 shipment 159:11 shipped23:3 119:11 152:22 156:9 163:6 174:16 307:15 358:5 shipping 144:10,21 148:11 153:21 159:17 207:18 261:22 shock 125:2 shoot 135:18 shooting274:3 shop 214:9 226:15

232:14 380:5 shops 380:7 short36:6 93:20 202:15 204:11 329:11 shortage 199:12,16

265:20 266:2 show5:3 33:6 62:4

80:17 120:4,5 225:11 234:10 237:10 252:9,10 252:12,19 260:19 269:17 322:9,20 332:6 333:1 352:18 377:4 378:2 381:4,5 showing22:3,6

72:17 195:5 322:7 322:12 shown252:8 336:3

355:11 showroom25:4 showrooms25:5 shows 19:12 20:22

43:18 162:10 164:11,13 172:11 179:21 205:6 233:19 298:14 322:5 327:7 354:6 shrank241:17 SIC 268:8 side209:4 234:17

273:22 284:6,7,17 294:2 334:13 369:22 370:1 sides 242:11 sign4:22 5:1

237:10 266:13 signature237:9 significance 163:11 significant78:3

93:16 163:15 210:1 247:20 371:17 significantly

241:17,18 similar 69:21 142:20 258:12 365:10,17 similarly 15:9 simple 59:12 77:10 144:5 150:16 152:21 190:11 219:8 256:18,22 271:20 278:13 279:5 284:12 289:14,15 302:13 304:5 370:11,21 simpler 124:3 simplicity 254:12

299:10 simplified 190:7 simplify 299:11 simplifying 361:13 simply72:3 152:10 180:21 183:18 257:18 294:20 370:22 380:16 381:2 Simultaneous 88:7

113:14 116:21 117:8 121:2 130:16 131:4 142:17 157:8 165:6 166:1,18 168:1 177:2 187:2 188:22 192:14 220:9 221:19 224:6 226:4 227:10 230:8 271:5 285:17 308:12 317:18 318:2 321:1 328:1 331:7 332:1 333:8 336:7 340:18 343:7 344:12 347:20 349:13 353:12 361:7 363:8,19 364:2 368:6,19 369:15 376:19 380:20 single9:3 18:1 158:8 161:14 173:13,15 315:11 317:4 335:8 353:14 354:20 363:2 single-family 193:14 single-package

8:16 17:10 single-speed

335:20,22 337:10 337:18 single-stage 308:19

315:5 singular 319:12,13 sir213:4 sit58:7 192:21

231:13 275:1 277:17 323:20 site79:8 sites 249:17 271:13 sitting 55:19 199:13 204:21 261:19 279:7 situation20:15

25:6 52:2 82:16 158:13 202:17 217:18 224:15 225:13 226:11 253:9,10 286:9 304:14 313:2 335:4,11 345:12 355:2 situations 31:9

39:14 154:12,15 235:20,22 310:13 six274:1 287:20

372:5 sizable290:20 size55:14 79:17,20 168:8,9,13 255:10 258:15 265:2 291:6 341:10 sized261:4 sizes205:5 365:17 sizing202:10,11,12

208:8 261:11 sketch 106:4 skilled 240:16 skin 104:9 skip 236:3 315:2 skipped 235:10 sleep 370:10

372:19 sliced 136:18 slide5:3,17 6:17

7:13 8:8,9 9:9 10:10 18:20,21 44:13 45:7 46:15 49:13 51:13 59:1 62:20 63:21 67:5 67:22 69:18 70:2 70:18 71:2 74:7 81:14,15 82:5 83:10 84:6 86:5,6 94:1 95:14 101:17 102:8 103:6,13,21 106:6,9 107:21 slides 84:14 85:6 sliding72:9 slightly77:1 slings 296:7 small 17:21 30:7

214:7 215:1,11 219:19 233:10 258:14,19,19 263:20 265:5 280:14 370:3 smaller 35:1 153:6 166:8,8,14 198:14 239:15 339:5 smart266:6 smarter266:6 Smith 206:10 208:9 Smith's 202:1

231:15 software206:8,14 sold 8:6 83:6 94:12

95:1 96:3 115:15 116:10 117:2 123:22 164:15 170:20 178:21 179:7,10,17 218:6 285:5 310:12 312:4 318:8 324:11 352:5 368:3,5 solder 133:11202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 418** soldering 305:7 sole51:20 65:10 solely46:4 solution 130:4,7 143:7 183:2 327:10 solutions 180:19 solve200:18

229:22 340:4 348:3 solved 55:16 148:18 256:20 solves 283:1,3

339:22 340:5 Solyndras 290:21 somebody 31:6,10

61:16 64:4,4,19 85:19 108:17 165:10 192:5 194:1,21 195:4 213:3 215:1 221:2 233:13 249:2 261:21 271:11,18 271:22 290:9 291:5 296:6 somebody's 233:19 somewhat69:20

79:19 142:20 son203:5 220:13

221:1 229:17 233:17 son's 205:1 215:7 soon209:5 sorry 18:21,22

21:19 27:4 43:15 54:11 71:2 87:20 103:14 110:12,13 125:15 154:5 167:10 186:7 198:11 204:1 213:3 214:13 232:1 235:7 250:16 259:20 283:9 287:7 294:22 306:18 318:19 320:1 331:20 335:15 341:1 sort25:8 39:7

52:19 74:11 99:14 107:6 114:14 140:15 143:2 228:4 254:17 296:2 320:11 325:20 326:5 355:9 361:9 372:14 374:22 sound219:6 367:9 sounded52:13

378:18 sounds 14:1 54:3

55:21 125:3 189:3 207:11 210:10 290:7 south 117:2 126:12 153:2 161:13 167:14 174:6,16 175:18,20 176:8 176:10 178:13,21 181:10 186:9 193:3 196:16 236:22 279:2 281:16,19 284:7 310:2 314:14 319:6 321:13,14 324:12 332:22 333:4 337:5,15 343:6,18,20 346:3 346:22 351:15,20 356:21 357:11,13 357:14,20 358:5 358:20 359:1,2,9 360:7,9 361:1 362:5 364:15 southeast7:21 8:3

9:1 Southeastern

166:13 southern 114:20 115:15 117:17 144:21 159:18,20 161:19 162:10 166:13 365:20 367:7,8,15 southwest8:10,12 9:1,2 261:20 346:4,22 span298:13 360:3 spans 348:19 spare213:19 speak4:11 201:17

230:10,13 286:7,8 305:2 352:16 speaking79:17

88:7 91:21 113:14 116:21 117:8 121:2 130:16 131:4 142:17 157:8 163:10 165:6 166:1,18 167:12 168:1 177:2 187:2 188:22 192:14 220:9 221:19 224:6 226:4 227:10 230:8 271:5 285:17 308:12 317:18 318:2 321:1 322:1 328:1 329:4 331:7 332:1 333:8 336:7 340:18 343:7 344:12 347:20 349:13 353:12 356:6 361:7 363:8 363:19 364:2 368:6,19 369:15 376:19 380:20 special 109:21 specific 89:10 99:6 133:21 180:15 199:5 247:6 315:7 354:11,14,17 specifically 19:21

96:17 161:13 339:1 366:18 specifications 78:9 194:2 specified 180:15

313:4 speculate 35:6 speed 158:9 167:11 189:16 315:11 317:4 spell 106:8 spend 38:2 103:11

200:3 spent91:10 140:6 160:11 219:13,14 spiral 227:2 spirit299:9 360:13

361:13 spit325:10,10,20 spit-out329:14 split 8:15,17,22 9:2 18:11 70:3 267:10 315:5,10 317:3 324:11 357:15 split-system 8:5 18:16 19:3 74:1 spokesperson

276:17 spot 141:4 327:6

364:6 spouse215:2 spreadsheet68:16 spreadsheets 263:8 spur355:6 squares 24:7 stabbing 149:2 staff29:11 31:6

210:16 214:20 216:3 stage 161:14 173:13,15 335:8 stakeholders 33:21

256:5 368:21 stamp 203:22 stand 152:4 198:10

274:11 standard 10:1 11:14,16,17 18:1 41:15 47:13 50:10 62:13 75:14 90:19 94:19 126:6,14 128:17,19 131:14 131:17 137:8 145:1 173:10,11 192:5 255:3,20,22 256:3 302:10,15 304:7,13,17 309:10,11 311:20 315:19,20 317:13 317:15 327:22 328:15 329:22 330:4 336:17 337:8 342:13,13 348:6 350:18 356:11,12 361:2 361:10 375:17 standards 1:3 6:14

6:19 7:3,12,15,20 9:15,18 10:6 11:5 11:7,13 15:2 18:13 19:3 30:18 39:12,22 40:4,19 42:3,5 44:18,22 45:4,17 47:4 49:19 50:7 52:3 53:9 62:1 67:18 68:12 75:17 77:5 77:18 90:12 93:8 93:9,18 98:1 99:3 99:4 102:14 104:4 105:18 116:2 117:13,14 119:13 121:6,9,13 122:19 129:21 152:10,12 161:18 173:5 187:20 292:14 296:22 300:3 304:2,10 309:16 309:18 standing 83:16,17

274:13 standpoint24:4 129:16 323:14 340:6 347:4 349:16 364:4 Star345:4 start6:12 17:2

75:16 80:22 114:2 114:16 147:3 226:19 278:6 279:6202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 419** started4:4 136:8

266:16 290:2 starting 365:8

378:17,19 379:8 starts 261:17

266:14 360:10 STAS 2:20 state42:3 109:5 183:18 stated45:14 48:1

313:17 statement 13:20

46:16 52:13 53:5 53:8 316:16 321:17 statements45:8,9

45:10 324:8 states 8:1,3,12,14 18:4 114:20 115:16 117:17 164:16 268:10 statewide236:18 statistically 93:16 status 327:16 373:6 statute 11:10 16:17

59:15 65:13 99:15 99:15 100:20,21 100:21 101:1 104:18 109:1,8 110:5 331:4 statutes 66:9 statutory 101:2 stay57:3 125:20 steal 249:9 266:15 step 11:22 123:5 131:18 272:14 steps 236:4,4 Steve 1:20 51:22

116:4 168:14,16 170:8 184:6,21 185:18 188:11 230:18 232:10 234:8,16 235:16 244:19 257:22 275:6 286:14 326:10 327:14 374:21 Steve's 234:9 stick51:9,16 94:14

94:20 139:1 sticks 51:11 263:12

274:9 292:1 stock205:12,20

232:18 245:1,1,2 stocked 232:20 stocking 232:7

243:16 stocks 232:19 stop46:19 102:4

261:21 274:2 stopped73:6 133:20 233:12 240:13 stopping 146:7 store 138:6 stores 64:1 story 199:21 249:8 straight284:13 straightforward

288:16 348:10 strange 355:10 strategy 366:8 street272:1 274:1

284:4,6,7,17 strengthening

217:10 strictly 153:19

273:4 string 154:22 strive 370:19 strong216:12 structures 37:18 struggle277:7

326:16 stuck 149:22 209:3

299:12 studied 183:15 stuff9:6 38:17 40:5

60:4 192:12 203:10 204:21 205:6,9 206:18 207:3 212:2 216:3 238:16 246:5 252:12 254:13 294:2 320:5 373:6 373:10 374:1 stumbled 365:6 stunned 136:4 subcontractors

240:11 subject 106:11 126:6,22 143:6 152:11 277:3 368:8 376:6 subjects 114:1 submissions 88:15 submit68:18 75:22

81:2 91:22 submittal 129:22 submittals 88:10 submitting76:14

92:4 subpoena 84:3,11

84:12,15,21 85:20 85:22 86:1,16 87:4,8,16 108:18 110:6 112:9 subpoenaed 113:1 subpoenaing 112:11 subpoenas 84:18 112:17 subs 241:5 subsidiary 156:12 subsidize29:21 subsidized42:6 substantial 252:17

253:18 successful 151:18 such-and-such 181:11 Sudafed273:11,14 sudden 163:7 282:7 sued7:8 suggest276:11 suggested 13:21 184:18 326:5 suggesting76:9 143:1 153:11 354:2 355:8 359:10 suggestion 366:9 suggests 124:16

359:3 366:8 summarize 345:19 summary 129:2,13 summer91:12

206:4 234:2 summers 206:1,2 supplier257:22 supplies 117:12

232:15 supply 1:20 29:14

29:20 116:5 118:19 170:9 184:22 246:5 support75:20 125:19 140:11 215:12 supporting 136:1 supportive295:9

370:19 supports43:9 suppose 36:22 supposed42:21 144:9 150:20 151:19 215:15 273:18 275:18,19 316:20 318:9 321:19 sure 19:15 23:9

26:14,19 29:12 31:14 42:19 44:11 50:22 54:3 57:8 59:17 60:20 72:12 74:9 75:8 80:9 89:17,20,22 91:6 95:2 107:16 110:10 111:14 114:10 145:15 148:16 149:21 157:4 165:19 176:18 177:14,16 178:8,16 185:2 201:16 204:2 205:16,18 217:18 218:17 222:7,12 237:8 241:20 248:8,15 249:1 250:2,5 251:10 254:5 256:8 257:5 257:15 260:12,13 272:5 287:5 288:11 290:4,17 296:5 303:3,14 322:3,21 326:18 334:3 358:3 367:18 375:16 surprise271:2,4 surprised26:3 surprising 85:15 Surrena2:21 54:13

54:14,22 65:6,6 65:14 66:2 138:13 139:3 189:3 231:18 239:11,13 239:13,14,15 241:9 242:1 271:21,21 272:6 282:13,14,14 298:11,11 surround23:3 survey 140:9,10

269:14 suspect36:12 160:1 327:21 SW 1:9 sweet93:20 141:4 swimming275:22 symbol 377:5 system 8:15,21 18:11 34:3 70:3 115:20 119:1 125:11 131:16 132:4 134:14 135:2 137:18,20 138:5 167:13 171:3 172:17 175:21 182:20 183:3 187:15 189:5,9,16 190:1 190:2 206:8 222:17 224:3 248:21 263:16,21 270:8 302:17202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 420** 304:9,18,19 307:2 315:5,10 317:4 323:3 338:9 339:2 358:13 systems 8:16,17,22

9:2 37:12 109:18 180:10 181:19 190:2 205:2 247:16 324:11 357:8,15 T T 169:1 table 15:16 53:21 173:6 287:21 311:12 332:8 371:21 table's76:6 100:11 105:20 tables 160:2 tag 184:13,14 279:2

281:16 294:14,20 348:12,18 349:19 tailor77:3 tailored 97:18 take 5:19 9:15

27:16 47:14,19 48:1,8 62:4 66:14 87:12 100:7 123:7 125:10 134:17 138:1,20 171:13 173:5 197:1 208:22 229:21 234:7 237:8 242:1 249:16 292:8 298:17 301:6,9,12 301:14 303:7 338:21 347:5 349:5 355:4 takeaways 60:10 taken53:4 148:10

218:22 takes 66:19 113:6 180:12 242:2 267:21 270:9,13 354:22 talk5:22 12:14 14:11 16:19 20:16 48:7 51:12 56:16 58:7,20 61:15,17 74:20 79:1,11 81:8 91:3 96:16 101:8 104:12 105:18,22 106:1 106:22 107:3 115:7 131:8 137:10,14,14 138:11 143:6 149:6,13 155:14 155:16 156:4 160:17 161:4 176:18 177:5 178:5 180:8 183:20 192:20 204:13 212:16 223:9 236:9 245:8 261:14 265:9,17 268:1 275:7 279:19 292:5,5 295:15 299:4 300:20,21 301:5 309:15,17 324:20 325:2,3 376:15 talked45:20 66:13

80:10 113:19 114:18 144:8 184:5 192:9 250:21 262:15 274:7,9 279:1 287:15 295:21 296:3 302:2 309:3 380:4 talking 6:12,15

33:14,18 41:17 62:6,17 74:10 91:18 92:21 93:2 94:3 101:8 113:22 118:4,7 132:15 134:16 141:6 142:21,22 143:9 160:4 165:21 167:3 180:2 186:10 233:7 235:5 250:22 268:4 281:22 283:11 284:15 290:14 301:9 335:8 345:16 349:15 353:1 354:8 371:20 377:20 378:8 379:17 380:12 talks 110:15 296:22 Tallahassee279:7 target 112:16 239:7 targeting 112:18 taught216:16 taxi 234:20,20 teach 6:7,9 242:22 tearing 134:16 tech 182:8 266:6 technical 199:10

217:3,10 242:13 technically74:13 technician 194:20 199:16 219:2 220:12 221:5,8 226:12 231:12 235:4 236:19 241:11 274:12 technicians 195:6

217:8 241:8 242:8 264:2 266:3 268:3 technology72:3

251:22 telephone 1:18 telescope 123:8 tell 15:16 16:7 53:2

68:13,19 77:13 81:21 94:11,17 95:7 105:1 109:16 114:6 130:11 151:7 160:18 161:3 197:4 199:12 202:21 242:5 259:15 260:7 264:4,6 273:13 288:4 324:18,18 376:7 376:14 telling 19:10 99:19 117:21 199:21 321:20 326:19 tells 17:19,20 18:14 19:12 23:5 256:17 257:22 329:17 361:16 temperature 167:18 168:5,12 ten96:19 215:21

267:12,14 274:2 ten-year 372:6 tend 195:18 211:13 tendency252:21 term 59:13,14 67:6

67:15 104:17 termination 94:8 terms41:6 43:11

86:21 167:11 179:6 195:18 216:22 217:2 253:13 325:9 359:17 371:4,5 terrible 154:13 terribly 370:4 terrifies 271:7 test34:13 62:13

86:6,12 88:9,12 88:14,17,18,19 89:3,5,8,14,18 92:11,19 93:2,6,7 93:14,15 97:9 101:15 102:1,3,10 119:20 120:2,4 165:2,3,3 166:4 171:9,13,13 172:1 172:3,6 175:9 302:11,18 304:3 304:10 305:15,20 306:8 307:5,14,20 308:1,15 309:5,6 309:12 311:18 313:3,8,14 314:9 314:10 315:17,20 317:11,14 322:8 322:19 323:2 325:11 329:15 330:7 338:16 340:10 344:3 345:22 349:18 353:7,14 tested 101:17 173:21 302:10,18 304:2,9,17 305:14 305:16,16,20 307:5,17 308:20 309:8 311:18 315:6,17 317:11 319:4,8,13 323:1 326:19 333:13 334:7,17,22 335:6 336:2 337:11 339:3,7 346:7 348:11,15 350:3 351:19 360:1,16 377:6,15 testing 69:7,14

81:10 86:8,8,9 92:21 93:11,19 101:16,22 102:7 162:20 163:11 262:6 306:2 330:6 332:17 336:15 377:21 testings 86:7 tests 88:9,14 92:22

315:13 317:6 thank5:1 11:3 14:14 61:19 66:2 74:4 91:8 92:15 188:8 232:1 245:11 296:17 310:9 312:18 318:11,13 330:9 381:7 Thanks 237:18 that'd 279:5 375:1

375:6 376:22 theoretical 282:3

347:4 thermostats 242:15 thing4:5,6 22:22

24:10,15 25:9 29:10 36:5 58:3 63:8 69:1 71:3 86:19 89:21 92:10202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 421** 94:16 95:15 103:5 103:14 104:11 126:8 127:7 134:20 136:18 138:17 141:22 146:5 148:14 149:12 150:4,4 165:16,18 178:22 180:17,21 189:12 189:19 197:2 200:8 202:6,7 211:3 212:13 213:7 225:21 236:1 257:5 266:10 275:2 279:11 280:13 281:5 284:22 286:3 289:16,16 289:17,18 290:12 293:2,17 294:11 294:21 295:2 326:2 335:17 348:12 349:20 352:4 369:20 372:6,14 373:12 373:14 things 6:2 9:20 11:15 15:10 22:4 22:6 26:22 33:9 40:20 41:3,9 44:19 46:19 47:16 51:12 54:17,18 62:18 67:13,16,20 77:10 78:5 79:6 88:13,20 93:14 94:4,5 102:19 107:22 111:7,9,13 112:16 113:7,18 113:21 114:6 123:6 131:13 132:10 133:18 134:18 140:5,13 144:9 149:8,14 154:13,20 163:19 185:14 189:2 197:17 198:8,20 201:18,20 209:15 209:21 210:17 217:3,8 219:7,18 227:22 231:12 232:2 238:10 239:1 241:15 242:10 243:1 251:7 260:18 262:11 264:10 273:4 277:21 282:3 291:9 292:4 292:20 294:7 296:3 302:7 315:9 323:18 325:17 353:5 365:9 369:19 370:3,13 371:21 374:11 think 6:1 12:14,15 13:2,10,11,16 14:16 16:19 17:6 20:8,13,17,20 21:6 22:5 23:19 24:4 25:5 27:13 28:1,8,11,18,19 28:20 33:3,21 34:20 37:13,14 38:8 39:18 40:1 40:13 41:15 49:6 51:5,15 53:17 54:1 55:17 58:18 60:8 61:5,7,13 63:15 75:17,21 76:5 77:1 79:6 85:6 90:1,13 91:1 93:21 100:3 101:4 105:20,21 106:8 106:13 112:13 113:2,20 114:6,8 114:12,20 116:5 120:7 121:10,17 123:5 124:21 125:12,18 130:21 132:17 140:18 142:13,14,19 144:4 145:20 146:13,18 147:2 147:18,19 148:3 149:13 150:4,11 150:12,22 151:1 155:6,7,12,13,17 155:18 156:12,17 156:19 158:20 160:10,12 162:16 163:19 164:7,18 164:21 166:3 167:15 170:6 176:13,15,17,19 177:11 178:7 181:12 183:10,22 184:4,8 188:11,20 189:2 190:14,15 192:2,9 195:3,18 204:2 213:7,9 218:19 222:2 226:6,6 227:4 233:5 235:16 236:8 243:5 245:16 246:13,13 247:3,15 250:4,14 251:20,21 253:13 255:3,12 257:22 258:1,11 259:9 262:16 268:7,17 271:10 272:7,8,22 276:6,20 277:1,21 278:10 280:1,3,11 281:3,4,5 282:8 286:12,18,20 290:12,13 291:11 291:17 297:10,20 298:20 299:5,11 299:17,22 301:10 302:8 303:6 306:20 307:10 310:11 312:11 314:15 325:7,16 326:2,6 328:6,12 329:5 331:18 334:12,14 338:3,4 338:7 339:6,8,19 339:21 340:7 341:22,22 342:2 346:13 347:21 348:7 350:8,9 354:22 355:14,17 357:22 358:18 359:2,11 361:3,5 361:11 363:5 365:2,2,5 369:3 369:19 370:2,17 371:2,9,11,16,19 375:5 376:11 378:19,21 379:2,4 379:16 380:2,10 thinking40:17

75:11 123:13 144:13 152:18 167:10,11 182:11 182:16 231:14 244:14 272:14 313:11 325:9 378:10 thinks 198:8

226:14 266:6 third 111:18 215:6

224:22 231:7 233:3 third-party78:5

88:18 182:2 thoroughly 305:6 thought 13:1 40:11

54:2 58:9 132:16 139:10 156:15 164:6 169:8 178:19 182:11 186:3,10,18 190:19 213:2 254:6 263:7 267:7 310:9 313:19 335:16 341:2 366:20 367:2 368:16,20 374:6 thoughts 15:18

325:3 thousand 30:4 thousands 170:21 thread293:11 threads 293:10 three 62:9 78:12 134:8,9 138:6 170:18 180:1 221:22 224:16 232:14 245:18 267:3 271:19,20 289:10 301:14 threshold 143:3 thresholds 344:18 thrilled 136:9 throw277:20 throwing 138:7 thumbnail 106:4 THURSDAY 1:7 ticket 66:18 275:1 tied49:20 99:6

227:15 tile255:20 Tim 1:12 52:6,19

54:1 155:20 156:7 284:20 355:13 364:8 371:2 time 10:1 26:4

27:17 46:9 48:15 66:13 77:8 81:16 83:21 91:10 103:12 105:17 107:12 108:20 114:12 133:6,7 135:11 140:7 155:5 159:11 160:3,11 177:5 190:20,22 195:6,7 198:3 204:11 216:16 218:21 219:12,13,14 223:2,13,22 224:11 226:15,16 226:16 229:22 232:5,9 233:17 235:3 236:3 238:16 242:3 243:20 245:21 246:5 267:4 277:21 279:1 288:1 300:20 319:21 355:20 378:8 time-sensitive 151:3 timecard 219:3202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 422** timely 82:19 372:5 times 135:14 194:19 196:18,21 199:3 214:22 223:6 245:18 296:5 350:18 353:3,5 timing 314:22 title 255:18 toaster 380:2 today4:9,14 20:16

61:2 83:9 98:13 100:1 103:22 104:6 116:15 117:1 130:9 155:8 156:10 158:11 161:14 188:12 241:4 242:19 245:6,7 274:9 289:21 294:17 305:11 313:22 314:1 318:20 321:10 323:7 327:14 335:3 339:10 346:18,20 348:21 349:16 350:12 351:22 363:13,22 366:3 366:19 368:16 375:5 381:4,7 today's 348:8 toes 123:6 told 65:10,11 94:17

99:15 102:22 103:4 112:2 tomorrow 325:20 tonight216:16 tool 69:8 77:3,17

78:3,15,21 79:3 112:13 150:6 tools77:21 78:5

80:19 86:2 147:14 148:4 196:2 266:21 top 303:11 336:21

351:10 362:9 top-notch 195:16 topic 80:2 301:5 tops 195:19 total 33:20 48:13 130:12 totally 275:14

294:13 touch5:15 235:9 touched57:14 60:4 tough213:6,16 town 133:2 205:16

233:3 234:1,18 237:1,7 240:9 284:5,17 track 68:20 206:6

207:12 218:21 240:22 tracks 206:8 Trade 17:1 trademark 63:17

63:18 traditional75:13 traditionally 12:4 traffic280:18 trail 209:12 trained 199:9

364:22 training216:4,12

216:19 266:22 Trane 118:13 transaction232:8 transferring 182:13 transformation 142:9 transformers 205:9 transition 159:2,12 transitioned 158:7 translate41:1

43:20 356:15 Transmitting

285:18 transparency

372:16,16 transparent23:12

71:4 trap 296:2 treat63:7,10 treats 14:18 Tri-charge 144:6 triangle 377:16,18

377:18 378:3 triangles 24:6

377:4 378:2 tried 132:9 trigger 147:5,20 triggered 146:15 150:8 triggering 67:16 triggers 141:2 146:21 trim292:11 trip 220:15 troops 160:16 trouble57:1

272:22 279:8 379:2 troubleshooting

258:2,3 truck200:12 205:7

215:21 225:8 232:19,21 234:9 240:17 246:6 249:1 266:11,21 272:11 283:2 284:18 trucks 215:16

246:1 268:20 true 12:10 40:20 103:11 137:14 139:13 143:5 234:21 265:21 280:20 335:2 365:15,15 366:1 truly 105:18 trumps 326:14 truncated 366:22 trust24:13 294:17 truth 189:18

313:19 try 30:6,15 37:19

38:17 42:19 61:16 137:20 143:21 161:9 201:17 203:21 205:11 213:17 221:7 224:11,17 249:11 276:11 291:16 380:9 trying20:18 28:17

38:5 40:10 44:3 99:7 107:14 112:15 113:3 128:4 129:9 131:13 146:9 148:20 152:3,3 188:15 199:19,22 228:20 264:2 272:22 286:17,21 287:7,11 288:8 290:2,15 293:17 293:19 322:2 323:18 339:8 356:8 357:3 371:6 Tuesday234:9 Tuesdays 6:5,6 tuned201:8 turn 163:10 200:9

211:8 313:7 370:7 turning 16:22

92:20 turnover265:10

267:9 268:7 269:19 turns 101:22,22 tweak 378:11 two7:16 22:4 44:19

45:8,8 59:3 62:9 64:15 83:1,4 84:14 85:6 86:6 111:6 113:6 114:18 115:2 116:14 132:1,10 136:14 138:9 139:17 153:10 164:8 175:4,12 185:12,17 186:2 190:17 192:3 196:12 204:12 205:2 219:22 220:7 224:16 225:6 232:14 241:18 262:18,19 266:15 267:3 268:21 269:1,7 271:19,19 283:2 293:10 301:9 312:6 325:17 328:5 338:4 342:12 357:17,18 362:2,6 365:4,4 365:16 374:16 377:4 two-man214:9 two-stage 335:4,8 TXV 125:13 126:19 TXVs232:18 type 68:17 163:5 193:15 232:8 286:9 291:2 309:18 317:12 318:7 typed 324:19 types40:6 309:11

315:16 typical 193:18

215:19 221:3 typically 23:2 112:16 213:12 225:14,18 251:6 323:15 344:17,20 345:16 365:21 U U.S 1:1,21 2:9,10

2:12,15,20 85:21 87:13 U.S.C7:6 46:9 ultimately 92:3

281:21 unable 122:22 uncased228:10 uncertainty46:18 uncle's 137:10 unclear 16:1 uncommon232:3

247:15 undersized 359:5 understand 6:18 13:15 18:6,17202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 423** 19:6 23:21 34:5 37:17 58:17 91:19 92:17 104:20 128:5 129:10 143:18 145:17 147:15 148:20 151:20 154:20 155:2,19 165:19 171:8,16,17 176:14 177:20 179:3 183:12 184:16 188:20 190:9 198:14 226:8 233:6 251:11,20 253:20 278:13 286:15 288:8,12 292:22 297:2 298:6 308:18 322:1 323:9,12 330:18 339:9,18 341:6 350:12 356:8 357:3 372:11 375:6 379:21 380:13 understanding 11:4,11 61:6 192:1 202:9 248:10 325:9 341:1 362:1 372:1 375:3 understands

304:11 Understood295:20

296:15 underway90:13 unduly 366:10 uneconomical

281:21 uneven277:4 unfair277:4 unheard215:4 uninitiated 62:7 unit 19:9 21:12

22:1,12 23:20 31:18 47:6 48:12 58:2 70:9,9 93:7 96:4,6 116:7 118:16,22 119:2,3 119:16,21 120:2 123:13 124:5,8 126:19 127:8,10 127:13,14,22 128:7,13,15,22 134:18 135:5,20 135:22 137:5,15 138:17 141:5,7,14 152:22 157:6,22 159:18 160:8,9 163:5,5,5 164:12 164:14 166:9 171:15 172:2,3,17 174:6,9,15 175:11 175:13,18 176:1,4 176:7 178:12 181:18 182:14 184:13 186:12 189:14 190:5 194:9,12 198:6 202:13 206:12 207:14 208:13 209:7 218:6 219:15 228:1 259:17 270:4,5,20 272:19 285:13 291:6 295:1 302:14 304:6,15 305:5,7,10 306:3 307:14,19 308:3 309:19 311:15 313:1 314:8,12,14 315:14 317:7,9 323:20 332:6,13 332:15,16 333:21 334:8 335:3,4 337:10 339:5,11 343:2 349:2,8 350:9,9 351:18 352:4,12,13 353:2 353:6 354:11,13 354:14,18 359:21 361:20,20 367:14 374:5 379:1 unit's 17:21 282:19 342:8 United 164:15

268:9 units 18:16 23:1

29:12 30:2 47:3 65:15 69:14 96:2 96:4 115:21 118:14,18 119:10 119:17 122:8 133:13,19 134:1 136:5 138:6 139:22 140:12 144:6 153:21 154:2,6 156:9 159:14 175:12 180:1 183:19 186:9 189:18 198:16 204:20,20 204:20 221:22 227:18 230:15 246:4 260:16 262:18 289:17 291:14 302:9 304:1,12 306:22 309:8,12 310:12 310:16 311:9 315:17 319:12 353:3 358:4,10 359:22 362:2,7 unlicensed270:14 unplanned233:11 unprofessional

270:14 unscrupulous

254:18 unsurprising267:3 unusual250:6 unwilling285:6 update27:8 updated256:4 upflow228:10

244:20 upgrades 193:16 upload76:9 upset374:1 upwards 30:4 38:3 urban 35:5 urgency 188:16 USA 199:21 usage 339:6 use4:14 19:16 25:1

29:21 58:19 64:3 64:5 69:7 71:5,8 72:19 77:16 78:4 80:20 84:17 86:2 86:2 89:5,17,18 92:22 102:18 134:14,16 140:16 141:9 150:5 166:16 168:5 172:3 217:14 227:11,12 228:14 230:14 232:4,11 239:18 272:10 273:16 297:2 325:21 343:19 350:17 365:12 379:20 useful 6:1 43:11,19

79:5 users 22:10 uses 264:5 usual4:6 67:17

225:16 usually4:15 21:20

25:4 31:13 81:20 194:3 207:19 215:1 217:1,3,4,9 217:20 231:8 232:20 233:20 270:22 utilities 1:15 30:9

35:4 36:4,13 42:7 276:18 289:2 utility 33:19 34:21

35:1,20 38:9,11 40:8 142:8 181:1 181:4 258:13 V vain296:4 valid20:21 77:20 116:1 172:12,14 338:8,11,15,19 341:11 346:1 347:10 356:13 358:1,13 360:9 valuable219:12 value9:3 17:19 18:14 19:5,11 22:18 70:12,21 72:19 78:13 221:16 309:20 322:7 323:3 329:17 358:6 valuefor 311:15 valve 101:22 102:1 123:22 125:12,22 variable298:13 varies 34:22 210:11

236:9 variety 245:22 various78:4 80:19

336:15 vary236:11 vast23:20 288:20 velocity 370:3 vendor 12:6 vendors 252:4 venues 370:15 verb 142:7 verification 33:19 versa 365:21 versed 54:15 version 190:8

206:14 362:3,4 versions 362:3 versus 131:16 140:16 143:4 165:2 187:19 207:8 208:13 306:8 366:5 378:12 vetting 88:11 89:13

90:2 vice 365:21 view 10:3 14:6

20:18 57:19 74:2 84:8 85:15 94:22 95:20 98:5 99:20 144:1 164:3 232:12 265:10202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 424** 294:18 329:2,13 330:20 viewed297:7 viewing 329:5 views 16:3 325:10

329:12 violate 128:1 violates 104:3 violating278:5

282:4,6 violation45:17,22

47:9,10 59:9,10 59:14,16,20 90:11 95:19,21 96:15 105:22 106:1 148:13 violations45:3

86:3 vis 374:17,17 visible233:1 vividly49:8 volume 130:13 173:21 211:8 315:15 317:8 319:4,8,17 332:16 333:13 334:7,17 334:22 335:5 336:1,19 337:11 339:4,7 342:14 346:7 348:11,15 349:18 350:3 351:19 360:1,16 377:6,15 voluntary40:8 volunteered 5:12

369:5 VTC 378:4 W wading218:4 wag330:15 wait5:9 316:10

358:22 waited 125:1 waiting 132:18

222:22 237:15 250:13 290:5 waiver 143:1,1 371:18 waivers 180:9

371:20 Wal-Mart 189:17 walk25:3 38:11

202:12 242:4 246:17 261:5 273:13 296:1 364:8 walk-in 14:17 15:1 15:4 walked 340:22 want4:5,12 13:13 14:10,11 15:18 16:8 17:2 26:19 27:14 35:18 36:5 36:9 39:21 40:14 46:19 48:8 50:5 50:14 51:7 53:16 54:9 56:1,3 58:5,6 59:13,14 62:4 78:2 79:18 80:9 81:7,18 83:4 86:11,12 95:5 98:8 99:5,9 106:2 113:8,9,12,21 114:1,2,15 115:5 115:5 130:6 131:7 131:17 134:9,11 134:15 138:10 140:19 142:2 143:15,19 148:11 148:15 149:20 155:20 156:4 157:9 158:21 163:22 164:2 165:18 166:19,22 167:3,4 169:18 177:14,17,18 178:6,8 185:4,7 192:20,21 194:9 195:17,17 196:19 196:22 198:15,16 200:7 201:17 203:3,10,14 204:6 204:11,20 207:5,6 210:14 212:14 221:12 223:3,19 225:1,2 227:15 229:6,8,12 230:9 231:12,16 234:5 234:14 235:1 236:1,8 238:3 242:22 243:22 244:6 245:6 247:6 249:7 252:19 254:5,7,8 257:2 260:4 273:12 274:10 277:2,7,10 277:12 279:15 281:12 283:3 286:15 290:3 291:21 296:1 301:11 303:5 309:1 311:6 317:2 319:20 322:21 325:13,15,15 327:2 345:21 349:4 351:10 352:13,15 353:20 357:4,14,15,17,18 357:19 360:4,6,7 360:22 364:8 368:13 369:8,10 369:13 375:11 376:15,16,21 377:8 378:22 wanted 135:12,12 140:17 167:16 192:4 245:14 250:17 251:10 257:5,14 264:10 293:9 294:11 297:6 368:22 376:5 wanting77:2 151:7 wants 32:16 155:16 178:4 275:17 292:5 381:7 warehouse246:4

364:4 warnings 81:1,3 180:16 warranty 65:7 133:14,17 217:14 217:17,18,20 252:15,16,18 253:6,9 261:2 Washington 1:9

277:17 wasn't 106:15 178:16 287:5,6 313:10 watch 102:10 watched23:1 watches 366:19 water 180:6,11,11 180:20 182:11 wattage 110:9 Waxman 131:7 way9:17,18 22:6

23:6 25:17 49:21 55:21 68:4 72:7 74:21 75:19 76:2 76:22 77:3 80:8 80:15,16 89:6 90:1,8 92:17 94:14,15,17,20 95:20 100:1,2 102:4 109:9 122:18 124:4,18 128:5 140:4 144:4 145:6 176:10 198:12 200:10 209:17 221:8 226:6 244:16 246:13 247:3 254:21 256:7 262:5 281:1 283:21,22 285:10 291:13 292:15 299:13,15 307:1 308:18 310:19 313:17 326:19 327:7,14 328:7 339:9,9 344:16 348:20 350:11 358:12 360:19 363:16 ways 38:5 69:21

77:16 134:6 190:17 209:21 244:8,12 280:4 we'll5:22 20:16

36:12 51:12 56:8 58:20 59:18 61:15 75:7 78:21 81:7,8 81:22 93:5,5,6,16 95:9 96:8,9,13,13 100:6 107:10 121:13 125:6,7 129:14 130:18 131:5 160:14 205:8,9 222:15 234:20 237:16 298:22 301:12 314:16 315:3 376:9 we're 6:11,12,14

7:11 9:22 12:14 16:11 17:15 27:12 30:7 34:5,9,11 36:1 38:4 40:10 41:2 42:5 44:2 46:6,22 49:18 52:20 53:2,6 54:9 55:20 62:11,17 67:14 79:17 81:20 82:1 89:12 90:20 91:11 93:11 95:18 97:14,21 99:16,17 103:11 105:13 112:2,18 114:10 116:18 118:7,9 130:5 131:12 132:14 141:6,11 141:14 142:14 143:9 144:8,10,21 146:5,19 149:21 152:5 160:4 164:1 165:4,10 174:2 177:15 185:16 186:10 193:11 196:15 197:15 198:12 199:1,11 199:15,18 200:16 201:7 203:9 205:7 212:6 221:18202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 425** 222:8 223:17 229:4,17,20 233:1 233:2 239:7,8 240:15 241:3 246:4 249:4 257:6 258:2,16 272:21 279:12 287:11 289:4,18 290:4,8 290:14,15 299:14 301:4,13 311:5 318:14 322:15,15 325:7 328:15 330:4 332:4 335:8 336:22 338:16 340:11 344:20 345:16 347:22 348:14 364:16 365:2 368:15 370:4,9,21 371:13 371:19 372:21 376:14 379:2,16 379:17 380:3,12 we've 8:21 10:13

24:21 25:2 27:14 37:20 38:1 51:17 51:18 52:21,22 53:4,12,19 56:2 58:14 61:17 62:2 64:22 91:10 96:11 102:22 139:20 150:5 160:11 180:1 185:20 192:18 200:15,17 200:18 205:22 206:2,15,18 228:13 230:17 232:2 240:20 250:21,22 254:22 275:16 277:15 280:22 287:15 289:12 293:14 301:8 309:3 323:14 370:2 371:6 weakness 330:7 weapons292:9 wear46:11 51:20 weather233:4 Web 271:13 website22:17

228:19 346:15 355:7,16 356:2 websites 182:8 Wednesday 6:8 week241:11

374:11,14,15 weekend270:22 weeks 204:12

374:16 weigh 315:8 weighing279:3,4 weight371:11 weighted 159:11 weird 355:10 well-versed 164:1 went 113:16 118:15 119:2 160:1 189:13,14 192:16 240:1 254:9 259:12 291:9 301:16,16 363:18 weren't 136:11 wet 189:7 whatnot28:16 wherewithal 135:13 white2:3 3:16

56:10,13,20 57:5 109:15,16 132:19 132:22 137:2 139:2,5,6 193:1,1 204:17 207:17 208:6,14 210:18 211:5,11,18 212:1 212:5,11 214:7,16 214:19 216:21 217:16,22 218:17 219:16 220:10,17 221:18 222:4,7,12 222:15 223:1 224:4,10 226:1 227:2,8,13 228:7 230:9,13,19 231:2 231:11 234:5,21 235:3,7 236:11,17 238:2,5 241:8,10 242:2 243:10 244:8,11,15 248:15,18,20 250:2,5,8,14 253:15,19 256:12 260:15,16 262:4,7 268:11,13 270:15 285:1 343:8,17 344:8 352:16 358:14,18 who've38:8 whoever's 346:14 wholesale29:20,21

34:17 293:3 wholesaler206:19

206:20 216:6 218:9 227:17 228:9 229:7 243:7 248:13 264:5 272:19 273:7 wholesaler's

234:12 wholesaler/contr...

229:2 wholesalers 207:2

216:5 218:19 248:22 249:19 250:1 wide213:13 widely 13:11

210:11 wider310:20,21 widget256:14 width 354:6 wield94:21 wife215:2,3 263:10

263:13 wiggle 138:21 wildcard71:7 wildcards70:6

71:5,9 willfully 105:7 willing 149:5

270:18 271:11 272:2 325:2 363:3 363:13,14 369:2 willingness 291:12 Wiltshire 1:16 wind 182:12 184:19

349:17 window 138:6 189:17 windows 138:7 WINNGINHAM 158:6 WINNINGHAM

2:4 32:8,19 157:15 167:17,21 168:4,18,21 170:15 171:6,11 171:17,20 172:7 172:10 187:5,8,13 278:9 296:11 306:9,15,18 308:17 309:2 320:16,21 338:22 339:15,21 340:3,8 344:7,11,15 345:5 345:10,15 347:1 347:11,21 353:17 354:4 356:20 366:15 367:11,17 368:1 wise204:17 205:8

216:4 wishes 35:8,9 wonder75:19

328:22 wondered 186:14 wondering213:21

267:7 word 30:20 59:20

64:10 190:17 361:6 371:10 words 33:22 158:19

212:21 220:15 227:22 249:15 260:7 263:3 303:8 303:9 310:18 312:13 313:7 350:14 356:13,17 work6:8 16:9,12 29:17 42:12 56:8 101:12 129:1 133:5 160:14 193:2,15,15,22 196:4 200:4 201:7 213:4 214:2,4,10 214:22 215:12 229:3,13,14 231:3 238:12 239:6 241:5 245:18 248:5 256:18 269:5 290:10 293:19 294:1 303:7 310:14 327:4 368:18 371:17 373:13 374:22 375:20,21 376:1,1 workable279:10

279:18 worked209:16 worker 199:12 workforce217:10 working 1:3,8 93:8 189:12 200:11 209:16 213:14 223:17 225:7 233:12 236:21 237:2 266:14 267:6 272:22 374:18,19 works 39:10 183:2

202:2 226:12 240:17 272:1 291:19 326:14 330:18 world 36:5 73:20 154:21 159:14 161:18 169:15 284:1 324:10 327:17 worried 370:4 worry 104:10 124:2

283:20 worse 312:1 worst 136:12 322:6

322:16 323:2202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 426** worth 138:9 217:9

232:21 wouldn't26:2

28:16 40:21 56:14 56:14 102:3 144:10 147:11,12 241:21 279:10 313:5 321:21 322:20 356:13 379:10 Wow271:1 316:1 wrapped 330:12 Wrightsoft79:7 wring 166:10 write219:7 303:2 writing 317:1 writings 331:11 written 10:4 85:9

94:8 120:18 299:13,16 wrong56:17 92:11 123:6 126:18 130:11 142:14 143:12 149:12,17 162:11 195:10 229:13 291:12 321:21 324:14 337:2 354:19 X X 189:11 213:5

221:10 244:6 261:15 XYZ 68:14,14 194:13 230:20 342:9 Y Y221:11 244:6 yadda 180:16,16,16 yeah 115:1 116:13 116:20 119:18 125:1,3 126:9 127:3 129:4,11 136:20 139:2 145:10,11 151:7 152:2 156:5 157:7 160:21 162:2 168:18 173:7 174:13 188:19 190:21 192:1 year38:3 47:7

68:18 76:21 180:5 241:13 265:13 267:18 268:21,22 269:6,7,20 288:6 years 36:3 37:21

65:16 76:20 83:1 83:4,6 135:8 140:10,12 159:7 160:9 193:3 199:15 200:3 205:22 213:11 239:22 242:1 251:13 267:4,12 267:14,17,19 373:14 yellow24:6 184:13 yesterday 5:12,13

20:13 27:6 38:20 43:6 54:12 57:14 60:7,9 65:3 80:10 96:17,21 100:17 114:19 115:3 121:17 169:9 192:10 257:7 369:6 371:16 yesterday's 113:19 York 6:6 226:3

289:9 young 112:20

242:18 263:9 Z Z244:6 zip271:18 0 1 1 10:7 17:11 47:2,5

50:12 115:15 117:3 121:7 159:2 159:3 188:13 252:14 1,00096:4 1,942,000289:21 1.670:4 1.6973:15 1.69273:14 1.7228:20 1/1/2015 60:19

114:20 1:08 192:17 10 124:6 159:14

199:15 205:19 213:10 215:22 226:19 10.9 18:3 10:24 113:16 10:49 113:17 10092:8 269:3

341:19 370:4,8 100,000 199:16

288:7 106 85:6 11 8:17 18:3 120:17

124:14 159:12 11.7 8:19 11:00 113:13 11:55 192:16 113 3:14 12 61:3,6 106:9

179:21 283:18 284:3 346:19 12-SEER307:13

307:21 308:2 12.1 8:18 120245:11 123XYZ251:9 13 11:14 19:11 61:3

61:6 114:19 115:13 116:5,6,16 116:22 117:18 119:14,15,21 120:5 121:9 124:7 126:12,16 144:5 158:9,12 159:1,12 160:8,9 161:15,15 162:11,18 163:4,8 163:18 164:14 165:10 171:2 174:17 176:9 178:12,19 184:14 228:6 245:2 293:16 298:16 307:15 308:5 318:8 324:15 332:11,13,17 333:16,17 334:5 335:15 339:14,16 341:8 346:20 352:1,15 357:11 358:6 362:21 363:18 368:4 377:13,15,16 381:3,4 13-A 333:18 13-SEER255:5,7

263:3 283:19 310:3 314:8 319:3 319:5 323:20 327:15,20 347:5 366:18 13.0 175:13 314:10 13.2 359:8 13.5 378:2 13.7 351:9 13.8 334:5 342:17

342:20 344:3 345:13 130294:3 14 1:7 8:7,15 9:1

11:15 19:14,16 21:4,12 46:9 55:3 60:5,8 61:6 72:20 72:21,21 79:21 114:22 116:7,9 120:2,5 126:14 128:19 138:4 144:22 151:1 158:2,2,17 159:22 160:18 161:3,12 161:18 163:19 164:10 165:13 167:1 174:4,8,17 175:16,17 176:9 178:12 183:21,21 184:15 201:12 220:4 228:6 245:3 279:4,6 293:16 298:16,17,21 306:3 307:18 318:9 323:21 324:12,16 332:21 333:16,20,20,21 337:15 342:15 343:9,18,19,20 344:20 346:5,8,21 347:6 348:19,20 351:4,7,21 352:14 357:12 358:6 359:10 360:4,10 362:17,20 363:17 366:18 368:3,4 14-13 294:5 14-inch 351:5 14-SEER255:7,7

281:16 283:17 310:2 319:5 324:1 326:20 333:10,14 333:15,21 337:5,8 337:10 339:2,4 342:15 348:16 350:21 351:14 356:14 358:5 377:22 378:3 14.0 176:1,3 314:13

357:10,21 14.2 19:11 164:14

165:10 174:10,19 178:19 179:21 184:14 298:16 332:11,13 377:14 377:17 14.5 344:5 345:9,10

366:19 378:1 14.6 345:14 14.8 174:10 14.9 342:21 15 130:12 171:3

176:4 378:1,2 15-SEER379:1 15.2 184:15 324:12 16201:12 245:3 16-SEER332:12

335:3202-234-4433 Washington DC www.nealrgross.com Neal R. Gross and Co., Inc. **Page 427** 17 350:20 351:6,7 1847:1,18 18-month46:17

49:17 193 3:16 1975 6:20 1980247:17 1st47:8,12 156:12 2 2-ton204:19

208:10,17,18 341:10 2.5-ton 341:10

342:16 2:50 301:16 20 17:1 35:7 36:3

37:21 130:12,22 197:11 205:19 239:22 284:17 20-some 373:2 20-year-old 137:7 200202:22 215:12

215:15 200-some287:16 200,000268:8,9

269:3 2000 159:2 2006 159:3 20077:1 256:4 2008 206:10 240:11 2010 121:7 159:8

206:11 255:21 256:4 2011 12:21 14:4 184:18 251:1 254:10 2012 10:5 120:17 184:18 2014 1:7 2015 10:7 17:11

47:5,14 50:12 115:15 117:3 188:13 252:14 256:6 201647:2,8 2020 50:13 20th 159:3 21 18:9 350:20 351:6,7 2275:7 134:13 140:8 23 159:4 23rd 159:4 25 266:7 269:19 250288:7 26th 376:11,12 27th 376:12 28th 376:12 2nd47:13 3 37:19 3-ton202:13

204:20 208:9 227:18 228:11 244:20 248:21 341:9 342:15 350:17 3-ton's 202:14,14 3-tons 227:17 3:14 301:17 30 35:7 135:8 193:2

255:10 293:14 369:3 30-second 369:6 301 3:18 31st47:64 4 3:11 368:12 4-ton204:20 205:2 4:27 381:10 40269:2 315:1 40,000268:18

287:19 403.327:19 403.32(c)(3) 50:10 410 134:13,14 198:19 410A 116:8 118:15 140:8 427:6 42.97 110:13 4200 38:2 429 62:10,19 429.106 83:20 429.7 110:13,14 4346:9 430 62:12,19 430.327:17 430.32(c)(4) 8:9 431 62:14,16 45 62:5 45,000 8:18,19,20 48/52 140:11 5 5 255:20,21 50 130:20 246:1 500 136:13 5291 46:9 6 674:7 288:5 60 130:20 238:13

269:2 60,000268:18 6097/8/9 1:9 62957:6 99:4 6295(o) 16:6,14 6295(o)(6) 16:17

59:16 65 197:3 288:2 7 7208:18 288:2

293:16 70203:2 238:13 70,000-BTU202:21 8 8 187:10 205:19

213:10 226:18 8-1/2 159:6 80% 143:5 9NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 428

Regional Standards Enforcement Working Group Meeting

US DOE

08-14-14

Washington, DC