1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Standards of Performance of Greenhouse Emissions 

8 From New Stationary Sources:

9 Electric Utility Generating Units

10

11

12

13

14 9:08 a.m. to 8:03 p.m.

15 Thursday, February 6, 2014

16

17 EPA East Building

18 Room A

19 1201 Constitution Avenue, N.W.

20 Washington, D.C. 20210

21

22

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1 MORNING SESSION 

2 EPA Panel:

3 KEVIN CULLIGAN, Associate Director,

4 Sectors, Policies, and Programs Division

5

6 ERIKA WILSON,

7 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards

8

9 NICK HUTSON,

10 Sectors, Policies, and Programs Division

11

12 AFTERNOON SESSION

13 EPA PANEL:

14 RICHARD HAEUBER, Chief,

15 Assessment and Communications Branch, Clean Air

16 Markets Division

17

18 ELLEN KURLANSKY,

19 Office of Policy Analysis and Review

20

21

22

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1 EVENING SESSION

2 EPA PANEL:

3 JAN CORTELYOU-LEE

4 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards

5

6 GABRIELLE STEVENS

7 Clean Air Markets Division

8

9 BETH COLLIN

10 Clean Air Markets Division

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PUBLIC COMMENTS PAGE

3 Morning Session

4 ALEX BOND, National Mining Association 14

5 THERESA PUGH, American Public Power 21

6 Association

7 LAURA KATE BENDER, American Lung Association 28

8 THEODORE FULLER, Citizen 33

9 SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, Second School District 37

10 of West Virginia 

11 JAMES DUFFY, Clean Air Task Force 43

12 GRETCHEN ALFONSO, Moms Clean Air Force 48

13 KATHLEEN ADDLESON, Citizen 52

14 JEREMY RICHARDSON, Union of Concerned 56

15 Scientists

16 HOWARD FELDMAN, American Petroleum Institute 62

17 ZOE BERKERY, Business Council for 67

18 Sustainable Energy

19 CHELSEA TU, Center for Biological Diversity 71

20 NANCY ROSS, Citizen 74

21 JACQUELINE PATTERSON, NAACP 76

22 PAUL FERGUSON, Citizen 79

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1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 SETH HEALD, Sierra Club 81

3 PATRICIA BRUCKBAUER, Creation Justice 85

4 Ministries

5 ERIC GOPLERUD, Unitarian Universalists 90

6 FELICE STADLER, National Wildlife Federation 94

7 JOHN NOVAK, National Rural Electric 98

8 Cooperative Association

9 IVY MAIN, Citizen 104

10 JIM TOZZI, Center for Regulatory 107

11 Effectiveness 

12 PETER ADRIANCE, Baha'is of the United States 113

13 JON GALLINGER, Mitsubishi Hitachi Power 117

14 Systems America

15 KENDYL CRAWFORD, Citizen 122

16 LOUISE BRIERRE, Citizen 124

17 MANDY WARNER, Environmental Defense Fund 126

18 EARLE MITCHELL, Citizen 132

19 LEO CRUZ, Operation Free 137

20 RONNIE CITRON-FRANK, Moms Clean Air Force 141

21 BETSY MONSEU, American Coal Council 144

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1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 MARCIA CLEVELAND, Interfaith Moral Action 150

3 on Climate

4 DANNY HERRIN, Southern Company 154

5 JESSICA HALPERIN, Unitarian Universalists 159

6 MATT WALKER, Clean Air Council 165

7 JALONNE WHITE-NEWSOME, WE ACT for 171

8 Environmental Justice

9 AFTERNOON SESSION

10 SHAUN DAKIN, Moms Clean Air Force 181

11 NATALIE PIEN, Bill McKibben's 350.org 184

12 JOELLE NOVEY, Interfaith Power and Light 188

13 MADISON POCHE, Environment Virginia 193

14 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, U.S. Senator Rhode Island 195

15 JOE O'SHEA, Citizen 200

16 BARBARA WEINSTEIN, Commission on Social 204

17 Action of Reformed Judaism

18 MICHAEL GREEN, Climate Action Liaison 208

19 Coalition, Boston, Massachusetts

20 DAVID HAWKINS, Citizen 213

21 LIZ SCHMITT, Creation Care for Sojourners 218

22 RHETT ENGELKING, Franciscan Action Network 221

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1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 MARY MINETTE, Evangelical Lutheran Church 228

3 MELINDA PIERCE, Sierra Club 232

4 ROBERT JAGUSCH, Minnesota Municipal 236

5 Utilities Association

6 J. DRAKE HAMILTON, Fresh Energy 241

7 DARIAN GHORBI, American Coalition for Clean 245

8 Coal Electricity

9 ETHAN SPANNER, National Wildlife Federation 251

10 MARTIN HAYDEN, Earthjustice 254

11 TODD LARSEN, Green America 259

12 DEREK MEYER, Citizen 263

13 DANIEL HUBBELL, National Wildlife Federation 267

14 DAN BYERS, Institute for 21st Century Energy 271

15 KATIE HUFFLING, Alliance of Nurses for 276

16 Healthy Environments

17 LUKE MICHAELSON, Alliance of Nurses for 281

18 Healthy Environments

19 DERF JOHNSON, Montana Environmental 284

20 Information Center

21 JOANNE SPALDING, Sierra Club 290

22 JERRY STEWART, 350 Loudon, Virginia 294

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1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 ALISON FISHER, Public Citizens Energy 297

3 Program

4 NADIA LUHR, North Carolina Conservation 303

5 Network

6 ANNA JANE, Citizen 306

7 TARA LOSOFF, National Wildlife Federation 310

8 MARY ANNE HITT, Sierra Club 314

9 LANE BOLDMAN, Kentucky Environmental 317

10 Foundation

11 ADAM SUNDBERG, Citizen 323

12 ELIZABETH MARTIN PERERA, Sierra Club 329

13 ANTHONY MICHAEL RODRIGUEZ, Texas Southern 332

14 University, Houston, Texas

15 JACOB HORNFELD, Citizen 337

16 PHILIP HUFFELDT, Snowriders International 340

17 TRAVIS MADSEN, Environment America 343

18 JILL BORAK, Coalition on the Environment 346

19 and Jewish Life

20 DORTHEA THOMAS, WE ACT for Environmental 350

21 Justice

22 LINDA BURCHFIEL, Sierra Club, Virginia 354

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1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE

2 TERRY McGUIRE, Sierra Club, Washington 358

3 FRANK WANG, Green Technology 362

4 ALEXANDER KRUPP, Environmental Virginia 365

5 COLLIN REES, Sustain Us 370

6 EVENING SESSION

7 GABRIEL THOUMI, Calvert Investments 380

8 LONNIE ELLIS, Order of Franciscan Secular 384

9 MAX LANDER, World Watch Institute 387

10 BEN DROZ, Citizen 389

11 LAVONA GROW, Unitarian Universalists for 392

12 Social Justice

13 JULIE HANTMAN, Climate Parents 396

14 FERNANDO CAZARES, Citizen 399

15 T. J. MATHEWS, Citizen 404

16 SANKAR SITARAMAN, Howard University 407

17 CARL GLITZENSTEIN, Citizen 412

18 JARED ROBINSON, Citizen 416

19 BRADLEY GREEN, Citizen 420

20 EDWIN LUEVANOS, Citizen Energy LLC 421

21 ADAM HASZ, Sustain Us 426

22 PHILLIP COLLINS, Citizen 433

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MORNING SESSION

3 9:08 a.m.

4 MR. CULLIGAN: Good morning. Before we 

5 get started, there's an Evan Plevniak (phonetic). 

6 You appear to have left your ID at the front 

7 desk. Actually, Erika has your ID.

8 And with that, I'm going to get us 

9 started this morning. Good morning. My name is 

10 Kevin Culligan. I'm the Associate Division 

11 Director with EPA's Sectors, Policies, and 

12 Programs Division. And I'm joined on the panel 

13 by Nick Hutson, who's with the same division, and 

14 Erika Wilson, who is with our Office of Air 

15 Quality Planning and Standards.

16 We are here today to listen to your 

17 comments on our proposed rule, the Carbon 

18 Pollution Standards for New Power Plants. The 

19 standards were published in the Federal Register 

20 on January 8th. And we believe it's a 

21 commonsense first step on the Clean Air Act that 

22 would, for the first time, set national emission 

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1 limits on power plants.

2 We're proposing to set the standards at 

3 1,100, or 1,100 pounds per megawatt hour, for new 

4 fossil power -- new fossil utility boilers and 

5 integrated gasified units, and a standard of --

6 we're also proposing a standard for gas-fired 

7 turbines. It would be 1,000 pounds per megawatt 

8 hour for large gas-fired turbines and 1,100 for a 

9 small gas-fired turbine.

10 The Agency's proposal does not apply to 

11 existing units. The standard reflects the 

12 ongoing trend in the power sector to build 

13 cleaner lower-emitting units.

14 The proposal is flexible and would help 

15 minimize carbon emissions through the deployment 

16 of the same types of modern technology that power 

17 plants are already using to build the next 

18 generation of power plants. EPA's proposal would 

19 ensure this progress towards a cleaner and more 

20 modern power sector continues.

21 Today, we will be accepting oral comments 

22 on all aspects of the proposal. And we will 

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1 prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 

2 transcript will be available as part of the 

3 official record of the rule and will be placed in 

4 the regulatory docket. We also are accepting 

5 written comments through March 10th, 2014.

6 At the registration area, which is 

7 located outside in the lobby, there are handouts 

8 with detailed information outlining how to submit 

9 written comments by mail, fax, or electronically. 

10 EPA will consider your comments as we move 

11 forward to complete the final rule.

12 Written statements and supporting 

13 information submitted during the comment period 

14 will be considered with the same weight as oral 

15 comments and supporting information presented in 

16 today's hearing.

17 Now let me describe the logistics for 

18 today's hearing. I will call the scheduled 

19 speakers to the table in pairs. When it is your 

20 turn to speak, please state your name and your 

21 affiliation, and begin your testimony. It would 

22 help our Court Reporter if you could also spell 

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1 your name.

2 In order to be fair to everyone, we will 

3 limit your testimony to five minutes and ask that 

4 everyone remain at the table until both speakers, 

5 both people have spoken. After you finish your 

6 testimony, members of the panel may ask 

7 clarifying questions. If you would like to 

8 provide a copy of your testimony, you can leave 

9 the copy at the registration desk out front. Or 

10 you can also follow the procedure for submitting 

11 documents straight to the docket.

12 We have a timekeeping system that 

13 consists of green, yellow, and red lights to help 

14 you keep track of your five minutes to speak. 

15 When you begin speaking, the green light will 

16 come on. The yellow light will signal that you 

17 have one minute left to speak. When the red 

18 light comes on, your five minutes have passed and 

19 I will ask you to complete your testimony.

20 Today's hearing is scheduled from 9:00 

21 a.m. and will continue until 8:00 p.m., or later 

22 if necessary, depending on the number of 

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1 speakers.

2 For those who have already registered to 

3 speak, we have tried to accommodate your specific 

4 time. We ask for your patience as we proceed 

5 through the list of speakers. We may need to 

6 make some adjustments as the day progresses.

7 If any questions arise through the day, 

8 please see a staff member at the registration 

9 desk table for assistance.

10 Thank you all for participating in 

11 today's hearing, and let's get started. And with 

12 that, I will call up our first two speakers, who 

13 are Alex Bond and Theresa Pugh.

14 (Pause.)

15 MR. BOND: Good morning, Erika, Kevin, 

16 and Nick. Good to see you guys again.

17 I'm Alex Bond, the Director of Air 

18 Quality at the National Mining Association. NMA 

19 represents the producers of most of America's 

20 coal, metals, industrial and agricultural 

21 minerals.

22 The current proposal by EPA to establish 

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1 new-source performance standards to reduce 

2 greenhouse gas emissions from new electric 

3 utility generating sources is not designed to 

4 improve environmental performance, but rather a 

5 rushed attempt to move forward with its 

6 regulatory agenda coupled with a reliance on 

7 untested and undemonstrated technology.

8 My comments today will highlight the 

9 problems inherent in EPA's decision in setting 

10 its proposed emissions standards, EPA's gamble 

11 with the diversity of America's electric energy 

12 mix, and the impacts of future rulemakings 

13 contained in EPA's proposed rule.

14 CCS technology is promising, but it 

15 cannot be considered BSER, since it is not 

16 adequately demonstrated. The Clean Air Act 

17 provides EPA discretion in establishing standards 

18 of performance for new sources under Section 

19 111B. Importantly, however, Congress constrained 

20 EPA's standard-making authority in two important 

21 ways: by requiring every NSPS to be both 

22 achievable through a best system of emission 

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1 control that has been adequately demonstrated.

2 EPA has determined, despite lack of 

3 adequate demonstration, that the best system of 

4 emission reduction for new coal units is to force 

5 those units to install carbon catcher and storage 

6 technology in order to meet a standard of 1,100 

7 pounds per megawatt hour of CO2.

8 While EPA cites several major projects in 

9 determining that CCS is adequately demonstrated 

10 as BSER, these projects are either under 

11 construction and not yet operational, such as 

12 Kemper and Boundary Dam; in the planning phase 

13 and facing difficulties, such as HECA and TCEP; 

14 or not designed to function primarily as a power 

15 plant, such as the Great Plains Syn Fuels plant.

16 The lack of commercially operating 

17 facilities with real-world performance data 

18 belies the demonstrated nature of these projects 

19 cited by EPA. EPA justifies its decision to 

20 require CCS by asserting that a standard based 

21 upon advanced coal generation technologies, such 

22 as supercritical, ultra-supercritical, and 

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1 integrated gasification combined-cycle 

2 generation, will not result in significant CO2 

3 reductions and will not provide incentive for 

4 technological innovation.

5 In contrast, EPA contends the regulatory 

6 requirements to use CCS will promote further 

7 development of the technology.

8 EPA's reasoning is fatally flawed on both 

9 counts. The utility sector is able to achieve 

10 significant CO2 reductions from building highly 

11 advanced and highly efficient coal technologies 

12 that are technically feasible in today's world. 

13 Further, EPA's assertions about the proposed 

14 rule's ability to incentivize technological 

15 innovation are highly questionable in the face of 

16 the unavailability of CCS technology for 

17 commercial power generation.

18 In EPA's discussion of setting CCS's BSER 

19 for coal units, EPA argues that setting CCS's 

20 BSER would promote deployment and further 

21 development of the technology. However, EPA's 

22 disparate treatments of new coal plants and 

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1 natural gas base-load plants in fact sets up a 

2 false choice for utility operators.

3 In contrast to the proposed standard for 

4 coal, rather than seeking as much emissions 

5 production as practical from new natural gas 

6 plants, the Agency inexplicably sets a standard 

7 that will allow emissions increases. Advanced 

8 natural gas combined-cycle plants have a base9 load rating of 760 pounds of CO2 per megawatt 

10 hour, according to the Agency.

11 Without explanation, EPA therefore 

12 dismisses the emissions reductions that could be 

13 achieved by new SCPC IGCC units while setting a 

14 standard that will allow IGCC units to actually 

15 increase their emissions by 20 percent above what 

16 the best existing units can achieve.

17 By offering the choice between CCS18 controlled coal on the one hand and uncontrolled 

19 natural gas on the other, EPA is instead 

20 providing a distinct disincentive and, likely, a 

21 roadblock to further development and deployment 

22 of CCS technologies. Given the cost disparities, 

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1 as admitted by EPA in its levelized cost of 

2 electricity analysis between CCS-equipped coal 

3 units and natural gas units without CCS, the 

4 proposed NSPS simply irretrievably incentivizes a 

5 further build-out of natural gas units and 

6 freezes any new investments in the development of 

7 CCS technology.

8 Further, EPA's proposal gambles with 

9 America's energy future by jeopardizing diversity 

10 in electricity generation. Utility operators 

11 have obligations to their shareholders, 

12 customers, and public utility commissions to 

13 provide low-cost, or at least affordable, power, 

14 regardless of fuel type.

15 While utilities also value fuel diversity 

16 in order to hedge their risks against the rising 

17 cost of fuel supplies, be they coal, natural gas, 

18 or otherwise, that diversity must be justified 

19 economically. To put it bluntly, utilities do 

20 not value fuel diversity simply for the sake of 

21 being diverse. They are obligated to consider 

22 market fundamentals and justify their decisions 

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1 based on sound logic and economics. 

2 By requiring all new coal units to 

3 install and operate CCS, with their admitted high 

4 capital cost of installation, operation, and 

5 maintenance, EPA has constrained the ability of 

6 utilities to justify building new coal units to 

7 address fuel diversity concerns.

8 CCS is still in first-of-a-kind 

9 developmental stage. And the requirement for 

10 only coal units with the itinerate cost makes CCS 

11 technology economically infeasible, effectively 

12 barring utilities from developing CCS projects.

13 Any meaningful effort to achieve long14 term sustainable reduction in global greenhouse 

15 gas emissions will depend on the development and 

16 deployment of new energy technologies, including 

17 advanced clean coal and CCS. The rapid 

18 development and deployment demonstration of 

19 widespread use of such technologies are of 

20 paramount importance in any reasoned and 

21 effective effort to address climate change 

22 concerns.

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1 The proposed rule hinders rather than 

2 helps attain this goal. The proposed rule is 

3 merely step one of EPA's response to the 

4 President's Climate Action Plan, as the Agency 

5 moves forward. The President has given EPA an 

6 incredibly aggressive set of regulatory deadlines 

7 to meet. These timelines are incredibly tight, 

8 giving very little time for the Agency to fully 

9 consider.

10 I realize I'm out of time. But we -- in 

11 closing, I'd urge the Agency to reconsider the 

12 path it has chosen with this proposed rule for 

13 all of the above-stated reasons.

14 I have a written comment statement here 

15 that I'd like to submit for the record. We will 

16 be submitting more detailed written comments by 

17 the March 10 deadline. So, please stay tuned.

18 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you, Alex.

19 MR. BOND: Thank you.

20 (Pause.)

21 MR. CULLIGAN: Next, Theresa.

22 MS. PUGH: Good morning. I'm Theresa 

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1 Pugh with the American Public Power Association 

2 representing electric utilities across the U.S. 

3 in 49 states, representing 2,000 utilities, all 

4 owned by municipal and state governments that are 

5 not for profit.

6 We thank you for allowing us to testify. 

7 And we commend you for re-proposing the rule and 

8 this time separating the fuel standards based on 

9 coal and natural gas.

10 But, as our handout suggests, the new 

11 plant standards are entirely too tight for coal 

12 and cannot be met. This handout reflects the 

13 latest of seven years of technology that have 

14 been built in the United States, and not one of 

15 the new coal plants can meet the 1,100-pound 

16 standard based on seven years of operation.

17 And I'm not looking at 20-year-old coal 

18 plants. I'm looking at seven-year-old coal 

19 plants. And to our knowledge, nothing in Europe 

20 or Asia will meet it and meet it over time. So I 

21 offer this as a handout, and I sent it in with 

22 our comments.

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1 Because the delta of 1,100 pounds and 

2 1,950 pounds is so significant, it puts all the 

3 more emphasis that CCS would have to work. So, 

4 APPA has focused as a laser on CCS for the last 

5 six years. And we've met with EPA or spoken 

6 before EPA at least 13 times on this topic.

7 There are a wide variety of cross-media 

8 questions, and possibly issues, and possible 

9 regulatory concerns related to pollution in a 

10 cross-media fashion that need to be addressed by 

11 the EPA. None were. No NEPA-like analysis, as 

12 required under the Clean Air Act, was done to 

13 look at Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act, 

14 Safe Drinking Water Act, or even lands that would 

15 be precluded from injection underneath, including 

16 national parks.

17 This is an egregious violation of the 

18 Clean Air Act, by violating NEPA. We can't 

19 believe EPA would make this glaring error. And 

20 we will be watching that specific issue very 

21 carefully.

22 The fact that EPA failed to do this has 

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1 also been brought up recently before the U.S. 

2 Science Advisory Board. So, the EPA assertion is 

3 that there are four plants that are operating. 

4 Well, there are not four plants operating in the 

5 entire world with geological sequestration.

6 We all know and commend that the oil and 

7 gas industry basically recycles CO2 in and out of 

8 formations, in and out of wells. This is great. 

9 No one doubts that it's been done very well by 

10 the oil and gas industry for 40 years. But 

11 that's not the same thing as a power plant. Nor 

12 is it long-term storage.

13 So the recycling process may be days, 

14 weeks, months, and perhaps there might even be a 

15 rare instance where it's crossed over into 

16 perhaps longer than a year. But I'm not aware of 

17 an oil and gas location where the CO2 was 

18 actually held and not moved for a year. If I'm 

19 wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected.

20 But regardless, that is really not a 

21 demonstration of geologic sequestration, when the 

22 power industry would be held to 50 or 100 or 

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1 1,000 years of geologic sequestration.

2 So, EPA's proposed rule points to the 

3 four plans. Well, we not only looked up their 

4 websites; we called them. And we asked them, 

5 "When can I come out and see the injection?"

6 "Oh, we're not operating now."

7 "Really? Well, could you give me an 

8 instance of when you'll be operational?"

9 So, here are the answers that I got: 

10 SaskPower, April 2014. SaskPower, of course, is 

11 in Canada and not subject to CERCLA, Super Fund, 

12 any number of other U.S. environmental 

13 regulations.

14 Kemper project in Mississippi, while we 

15 admire the fact that they are attempting to do 

16 CCS, it's not operational yet.

17 The third plant, as Alex mentioned, the 

18 Texas Clean Energy Project near Odessa, which of 

19 course, is an oil and gas recovery area also, 

20 it's not operational. And more importantly, they 

21 have no contract. So if they have no power 

22 purchase agreement, they're not operational, and 

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1 we have no sense of when it would be.

2 Lastly, the California project. They 

3 don't even have a construction permit and won't 

4 be applying for it for, I believe, eight months. 

5 And they would not be doing injection for five 

6 years.

7 APPA asks that you withdraw the rule, 

8 remove CCS, and implement a more realistic CO2 

9 limit. Thank you.

10 MR. CULLIGAN: Can I ask one clarifying 

11 question, Theresa?

12 MS. PUGH: Certainly.

13 MR. CULLIGAN: So, are you suggesting 

14 that if we did have a CO2 -- if we did stick with 

15 an 1,100 standard or a standard that required 

16 CCS, that we should not allow EOR? Because it 

17 sounded like you didn't think that --

18 MS. PUGH: Oh, we think EOR is terrific. 

19 But it has absolutely no relevance to the 

20 hundreds of power plants across the U.S. that are 

21 not located close to geologic formations where 

22 oil and gas recovery can take place.

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1 MR. CULLIGAN: That's what my question 

2 is. Are you suggesting we shouldn't allow EOR as 

3 a means of sequestration? That's all I'm asking. 

4 For the new plants, not the existing plants. For 

5 the new plants, as the rule proposes, we allow 

6 EOR. Are you suggesting we shouldn't?

7 MS. PUGH: I'm happy for you to allow 

8 EOR. I am not happy if you require that a power 

9 plant be connected to an EOR location. Because 

10 very few --

11 MR. CULLIGAN: Okay. All I'm asking is, 

12 Theresa, you suggested that EOR doesn't actually 

13 sequester.

14 MS. PUGH: To my knowledge, EOR does not 

15 sequester more than 100 years. I really don't 

16 know that the oil and gas industry was fully 

17 operational 100 years ago.

18 MR. CULLIGAN: It would be helpful if, in 

19 your comments, you could make it clear whether or 

20 not you think that EOR should be allowed under 

21 the rule, if we had CCS. That's all I'm asking. 

22 Because on one hand you're saying it doesn't 

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1 work. And I'm just not sure if you're suggesting 

2 that that means we should only allow class 6 

3 wells or that we should allow class 2 wells.

4 So if you could clarify that in your 

5 comments, we'd appreciate it.

6 MS. PUGH: Thank you very much.

7 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

8 Our next two speakers are Laura Kate 

9 Bender and Theodore Fuller.

10 (Pause.)

11 MS. BENDER: Good morning. My name is 

12 Laura Kate Bender. That's B-e-n-d-e-r. And I'm 

13 the Healthier Coalition Coordinator for the 

14 American Lung Association in Virginia. On behalf 

15 of our coalition of public health groups, medical 

16 professionals, and patients with lung disease, 

17 I'm here today to set strong limits on carbon 

18 pollution from new power plants.

19 The Healthier Coalition is made up of 

20 experts from across the Commonwealth who 

21 understand the impact that air pollution has on 

22 human health. In Virginia, much of that air 

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1 pollution is ground-level ozone. Thanks to EPA, 

2 we know that our levels of this pollutant are 

3 unsafe in many parts of the state.

4 The American Lung Association uses EPA's 

5 air quality data to give letter grades to cities 

6 and counties across the country in our State of 

7 the Air Report each year. In our most recent 

8 report, Virginia had five cities or counties that 

9 got failing grades for their ozone levels. In 

10 another five, they got D's. That means that

11 nearly half of our cities and counties with air 

12 pollution monitoring data last year got a D or an 

13 F for their levels of ozone.

14 Our report also shows that the three 

15 areas in Virginia with the worst ozone problems 

16 are Northern Virginia, the Richmond metropolitan 

17 area, and the Hampton Roads region.

18 I can speak firsthand about the impact of 

19 the D.C. area's ozone levels on my own health. I 

20 live in Fairfax County, one of the locations that 

21 got a failing grade on their report. And I have 

22 asthma. So, during ozone season, I make a habit 

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1 of checking for air quality alerts before I go 

2 running outside.

3 It's lucky that I'm usually able to 

4 manage my symptoms by planning ahead and taking 

5 my inhaler. But many that I've met in this area 

6 can't. I've worked with a group in 

7 Fredericksburg called the Pulmonary Pals. 

8 They're a support group for people with chronic 

9 obstructive pulmonary disease, COPD. And many of 

10 them are forced to stay home on hot, smoggy days.

11 As the group leader put it, "Some days 

12 the air is just too polluted for a person with 

13 COPD to go outside. No one should have to inhale 

14 polluted air, but a COPD patient like myself is 

15 literally confined to the indoors in order just 

16 to breathe."

17 High smog levels mean increases in 

18 hospital and emergency room visits. A

19 respiratory therapist who works at a Fairfax 

20 hospital told me, "Whenever there are code red 

21 days and the air quality is very poor, we at the 

22 facility where I work see increased admissions 

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1 and an increased number in patients coming to the 

2 hospital."

3 These code red days are harmful for 

4 anyone, but for people with COPD and asthma, 

5 they're particularly dangerous. And Virginia 

6 understands the impact of asthma.

7 Richmond has the unfortunate honor of 

8 having been name the U.S. Asthma Capital by the 

9 Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America, for 

10 three out of the last four years. We work 

11 closely with the Asthma Coalitions of Central 

12 Virginia and of the Greater Roanoke Valley to 

13 help educate people about the links between air 

14 pollution and asthma exacerbation.

15 I've taught children with asthma how to 

16 understand EPA's Air Quality Index, and I've 

17 worked with young asthma awareness advocates to 

18 use the Medica to teach families about the 

19 importance of looking up their daily air quality.

20 What almost everyone I speak to 

21 understands, though, especially in Richmond, is 

22 that our kids with asthma can't be truly healthy 

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1 until the air quality improves.

2 The Healthy Air Campaign has shown that 

3 people in Virginia who care about health care 

4 about cutting dangerous air pollution. More than 

5 80 medical professionals from throughout the 

6 Commonwealth have joined us recently by signing a 

7 letter to publicly call for better protections 

8 against smog and other pollutants.

9 Twenty different medical and public 

10 health groups in Virginia have officially joined 

11 the coalition, and many more have helped to 

12 spread the word among their staff and patients 

13 that we need to do more to ensure healthy air.

14 It's clear that cutting carbon pollution 

15 from power plants is a crucial next step. As 

16 carbon pollution builds up in the atmosphere, it 

17 leads to higher temperatures. This enhances the 

18 condition for ozone formation. Climate change 

19 could exacerbate the ozone problem in Virginia. 

20 And that's why our coalition of physicians, 

21 nurses, respiratory therapists, and lung disease 

22 patients and their families is working to support 

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1 limits on carbon pollution from new power plants.

2 On behalf of the American Lung 

3 Association of Virginia, I urge you to strengthen 

4 your proposed limits. Natural gas combined-cycle 

5 plants should be held to a tighter standard than 

6 1,000 pounds per megawatt hour of CO2. And 

7 because coal-fired plants have such widespread 

8 and dangerous health impacts, and long life 

9 spans, we should not continue to expand our coal10 fired generating capacity.

11 Please act quickly to finalize limits on 

12 carbon pollution from new power plants, and then 

13 propose standards for existing power plants by 

14 June 2014. We must work now to ensure that we 

15 can have a future free of high ozone days. And 

16 our health, especially the health of those of our 

17 most vulnerable in Virginia, depends on it.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

20 MR. FULLER: Thank you. Good morning. 

21 My name is Dr. Theodore Fuller. I am a 

22 psychologist in private practice in Washington, 

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1 and my specialty is family and child psychology. 

2 And I'm here today on behalf of my patients, many 

3 of them who suffer from asthma as well as other 

4 pulmonary conditions.

5 And frequently, asthma and the other 

6 types of pulmonary conditions are hereditary, but 

7 in many cases, it is caused by pollutants in the 

8 air. And with many of my patients who do have 

9 these conditions, it complicates their 

10 development, particularly the children that I 

11 work with. And I'm here on behalf of those 

12 children.

13 Unfortunately, many of those children are 

14 poor children or children of color, who do not 

15 have access to -- until the Affordable Care Act, 

16 who do not have access to insurance, as well as 

17 not be informed about innovative treatments for 

18 asthma and other conditions. So I'm here to 

19 request and get the EPA's consideration for 

20 balance or stricter standards in terms of these 

21 gases getting into the atmosphere, affecting our 

22 children, and adults as well.

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1 I just want to mention, just briefly, 

2 from a standpoint of health, children who suffer 

3 from these conditions who's complicated by the 

4 environment, how it impacts upon their 

5 development. I've worked with adolescents and 

6 children. And many of those children who are in 

7 school, many of them can't go to school because 

8 of attacks, asthma attacks. They're out for 

9 weeks and weeks.

10 And of course, when you're out of school, 

11 that does affect your grades. That affects your 

12 academic performance, as well as the stress on 

13 the family in having to deal with a child who is 

14 ill. One of the greatest stressors for families 

15 is dealing with a sick child or a sick adult. 

16 And this really has a tremendous impact upon 

17 families, these kind of conditions.

18 But it also affects the adolescents, as 

19 children grow up. It affects their adolescence. 

20 I remember as a child growing up in Birmingham, 

21 Alabama, where we had a steel factory on the 

22 blocks of my home. And I remember the bellowing 

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1 black smoke throughout my childhood and the 

2 impacts upon my sister, who has asthma. I don't 

3 have asthma, but she did develop it. And I'm 

4 sure that that is because of that, because none 

5 of my other family members had that. But I 

6 remember there were white cars, and you could see 

7 the specks of dust, permanent dust from the 

8 factory.

9 But the damage from these pulmonary 

10 conditions that are complicated or caused by the 

11 atmosphere can affect the adolescent as well, 

12 which is a very fragile period in development, 

13 particularly when you're growing a sense of 

14 identity. And if you have a sick identity, that 

15 affects how you feel about yourself. That 

16 affects how you relate to other teens, which 

17 causes behavioral problems for that child, as 

18 well as personal identity problems.

19 So I don't really have a lot to say. But 

20 I'm just here on behalf of my patients to 

21 advocate for clean air for them so that they can 

22 start off life healthy. Many of them recover 

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1 from asthma as they grow older. But sometimes, 

2 if they have it and they are continuously exposed 

3 to poor-quality air, it can go out through life.

4 So I'm here just to request that you 

5 consider some kind of a balanced standards in 

6 terms of these pollutants.

7 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. Thank both of 

8 you.

9 Our next two speakers are Congresswoman 

10 Shelley Moore Capito and James Duffy.

11 (Pause.)

12 MS. CAPITO: Thank you for giving me the 

13 opportunity. I'm Shelley Moore Capito. I 

14 represent the Second District of West Virginia.

15 I'd like to begin by thanking the EPA and 

16 Regional Administrator Shawn Garvin for coming to 

17 my community, Charleston, West Virginia, to help 

18 with the water situation there. So I want to get 

19 that on the record.

20 As you know, West Virginia is an energy 

21 state with more than 22,000 workers in my state 

22 directly working in the coal industry, tens of 

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1 thousands more working in closely related 

2 industries. Coal provides 40 percent of the 

3 power in -- the electricity in the nation, and 95 

4 percent of the electricity in my State of West 

5 Virginia. It is no stretch to say that the coal 

6 industry is the lifeblood of the state's economy.

7 The EPA has singled out this, I think, 

8 industry. We have 315 coal units nationally, and 

9 18 in West Virginia have been retired or 

10 converted as a result of coal regulations, 

11 including the Utility MACT Rule. West Virginia 

12 has over 100 fewer coal mines operating today 

13 than it did, and thousands of miners and other 

14 workers have been furloughed and laid off. 

15 The rule under consideration today and 

16 its companion rule for existing coal-fired power 

17 plants would significantly exacerbate these 

18 economic problems. Before I discuss the new

19 rules, I would like to speak to the impact these 

20 rules would have on West Virginians working to 

21 provide for their families.

22 I'm here to speak for the hundreds of 

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1 thousands of West Virginians whose voices, I 

2 feel, have been ignored. All they ask is for a 

3 chance to do their jobs, provide affordable 

4 energy to their fellow Americans, and not be 

5 unfairly targeted by having been picked as a 

6 winner or a loser in the energy economy.

7 I want to express my disappointment that 

8 the EPA has declined multiple invitations that 

9 I've extended to hold a public hearing in the 

10 State of West Virginia. Earlier this year, the 

11 Agency held 11 such sessions for the existing 

12 coal plants' regulation, not this one, around the 

13 country in New York, Seattle, Chicago, San 

14 Francisco, and here in D.C.

15 Notably absent from the EPA's list were 

16 the states that rely on coal the most for 

17 affordable, reliable energy. None of the EPA's 

18 listening sessions were held in one of the top 10

19 states that generate the highest percentage of 

20 electricity from coal. I feel that the folks 

21 that have the livelihoods have been ignored.

22 Now let's talk about why these rules 

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1 should not be implemented. The greenhouse gas 

2 standard for new coal plants we are considering 

3 today cannot be met by any plant in the nation's 

4 existing fleet. Under this rule, new plants will 

5 have to meet a carbon dioxide limit of 1,100 

6 pounds per megawatt hour. The Longview Power 

7 Plant in Morgantown, West Virginia, is one of the 

8 cleanest coal plants in the country, and it still 

9 exceeds this standard by a significant margin.

10 In its proposed rule, EPA cites 

11 demonstration projects like the Kemper plant in 

12 Mississippi and the FutureGen project in Illinois 

13 as evidence that its commercially available 

14 carbon capture and storage technology would allow 

15 these coal plants to meet that standard. These 

16 plants, however, have each received tens of 

17 millions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies at both 

18 federal and state level in order to help spur 

19 development of CCS.

20 And while I fully, fully support this 

21 research, we cannot rely on taxpayer funding to 

22 bring this technology to every power plant in 

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1 America. It's just not feasible.

2 If we're really interesting in developing 

3 technology, I think we do have innovative 

4 technologies that are more technically and 

5 commercially viable. I've been advocating for 

6 funding for the Department of Energy's Fossil 

7 Energy Research Program. This funding supports 

8 the next generation of clean-coal technologies 

9 through research conducted at NETL in Morgantown, 

10 West Virginia, and at universities across the 

11 country, including WVU.

12 Instead, the administration has cut off 

13 funding for this fossil energy research at the 

14 same time it proposed regulatory standards that 

15 are unachievable with the existing technologies.

16 Let me clarify one thing: My opposition 

17 to the greenhouse gas rule should not be taken as 

18 an opposition to all environmental regulation. 

19 As I mentioned, on January the 9th, we had a 

20 chemical spill at Freedom Industries in West 

21 Virginia that left 3,000 people in my state 

22 without water. We understand that there is 

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1 important room for commonsense environmental 

2 regulations to protect the air we breathe and the 

3 water that we drink.

4 The rule under consideration, I believe, 

5 does not represent commonsense regulation. It 

6 would choke off a vital American industry by 

7 preventing new coal plants and bringing coal 

8 production that would support those plants to a 

9 halt.

10 I would like to mention there are foreign 

11 competitors. Germany last year built more coal12 fired power plants than at any time in the last 

13 two decades. Japan is turning to coal and 

14 natural gas. India and China are building new 

15 coal plants at an astonishing rate. These are 

16 our foreign competitors. Many of these countries 

17 import our coal. West Virginia is the largest 

18 exporting coal than any other state.

19 And I'm glad that our coal exports do 

20 provide jobs at home in West Virginia. It's 

21 breathtaking that we would stop from using our 

22 own natural resources to provide our country with 

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1 a competitive advantage in the global economy.

2 West Virginians know that -- I see the 

3 light there. I'm almost finished.

4 An energy economy is a jobs economy. 

5 That doesn't mean we don't want regulation. It 

6 means we want regulators to work with us, to 

7 weave that balance between the economy and the 

8 environment. Thank you.

9 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

10 MR. DUFFY: Good morning. My name is 

11 James Duffy. I'm an attorney with the Clean Air 

12 Task Force. And on behalf of the Clean Air Task 

13 Force, I want to commend EPA on this proposed 

14 rule, which relies on carbon capture and 

15 sequestration as the best system of emissions 

16 reduction for new fossil-fired boilers and 

17 IGCC's.

18 Fossil-fired EGU's are the leading 

19 stationary source emitter of carbon dioxide, a 

20 dangerous greenhouse gas. Carbon dioxide 

21 contributes significantly to climate change and 

22 climate-change induced public harms, including 

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1 drought and related adverse effects on our 

2 agricultural system and water supplies, increases 

3 in serious insect-borne illness like Lyme's 

4 disease, the increase in severe weather and 

5 weather-related events like wildfires and 

6 flooding, increased ground-level ozone, and 

7 adverse effects on wildlife and ecosystems.

8 The pressing need to immediately reduce 

9 carbon emissions is highlighted by the 

10 pollutant's characteristics. It's not only 

11 emitted in large amounts, it's the product of 

12 combustion, not the byproduct of combustion. But 

13 as compared to other pollutants regulated under 

14 the Clean Air Act, carbon dioxide is long lived. 

15 Significant amounts of each ton remain aloft, 

16 causing a climate harm for more than 100 years.

17 Until reductions in emissions are 

18 achieved, the resulting accumulations and 

19 associated damage will continue and grow at 

20 dangerous rates. The need to achieve greenhouse 

21 gas reductions, therefore, is immediate.

22 And we applaud you for taking this 

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1 important first step. The new-source performance 

2 standard program is meant to pave the way toward 

3 improved air quality, including decreased climate 

4 pollutant emissions. It is to be based on the 

5 best system of emission reductions.

6 As the courts have said, the NSPS program 

7 should look toward what fairly may be projected 

8 for the regulated future, rather than the state9 of-the-art at present.

10 In order to stimulate and augment the 

11 innovative character of the industry, courts have 

12 further told us that adequately demonstrated 

13 technology, which can be the basis for a 

14 standard, is one which has been shown to be 

15 reasonably reliable, reasonably efficient, and 

16 which can reasonably be expected to serve the 

17 interests of pollution control without becoming 

18 exorbitantly costly in an economic or 

19 environmental way.

20 This includes systems in use in other

21 countries, as well as across other industries. 

22 The courts explain that an achievable emission 

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1 limitation on such technology is not one that is 

2 purely theoretical or experimental, but it also 

3 need not be necessarily routinely achieved within 

4 the industry prior to its adoption.

5 As you have recognized in the standard, 

6 CCS is adequately demonstrated, based on the 

7 record before the Agency. And emissions limits 

8 based on these technologies are available. The 

9 standard set by EPA would require a capture rate 

10 of 30 to 50 percent.

11 Southern Company's 582-megawatt plant in 

12 Mississippi will capture 65 percent of its carbon 

13 pollution, and it is expected to go online this 

14 year. The Summit Power's Texas Clean Energy 

15 Project, a 400-megawatt power plant, will capture 

16 90 percent of its carbon pollution.

17 But far from relying solely on these 

18 recent U.S. projects, which have received some 

19 subsidy like other energy technologies, EPA's 

20 technical support documents for this rule 

21 demonstrate that the Agency relies, in fact, on 

22 various components of CCS technology systems

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1 which are in use around the world in many large2 scale applications, including integrated 

3 applications.

4 The MIT Technology Report, the MIT 

5 reports that there are 24 large-scale CCS 

6 projects worldwide, 7 of which are in the U.S. 

7 and Canada. And CCS is also available as a 

8 retrofit technology on conventional coal plants. 

9 The Boundary Dam Facility, a 110-megawatt power 

10 plant with full CCS, is going to be online early 

11 this year.

12 SaskPower is already looking to expand 

13 its CCS operations two more units, and the 

14 project operators think that lessons learned from 

15 this plant will mean that in the future, this 

16 technology may be up to 30 percent cheaper.

17 Finally, the bulk of future CO2 emissions 

18 come from sources that exist today. We are 

19 encouraged that EPA has begun taking steps toward 

20 reducing CO2 emissions from the existing fleet as 

21 a much-needed next step.

22 As Senator Booker recently stated with 

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1 respect to carbon pollution and climate change, 

2 the idea that corporations should be allowed to 

3 privatize their profits and socialize their costs 

4 has got to stop. These standards take 

5 appropriate steps toward placing the 

6 responsibility of addressing carbon pollution on 

7 the carbon polluters.

8 Thank you for this opportunity to comment 

9 on this critically important and historic rule.

10 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you both.

11 Our next two speakers are Gretchen 

12 Dahlkemper Alfonso and Kate Addleson.

13 (Pause.)

14 MS. ALFONSO: Good morning. My name is 

15 Gretchen Dahlkemper Alfonso, and I'm the National 

16 Field Director for Moms Clean Air Force. We are 

17 an organization of over 200,000 parents who have 

18 banded together to protect our children's health 

19 from the threat of toxic air pollution.

20 On behalf of our membership today, I want 

21 to thank the EPA for holding today's hearing and 

22 engaging with everyday parents, just like myself 

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1 -- parents with asthmatic children, parents 

2 struggling to put food on their table, parents 

3 who are fed up with an industry that has been 

4 allowed for far too long to spew harmful 

5 greenhouse gases into our atmosphere with little 

6 to no concern for the health and welfare of 

7 American families.

8 The world we are leaving our kids is one 

9 that would keep any parent up at night. On 

10 behalf of my own children, I want to thank the 

11 EPA today for moving ahead to set the first-ever 

12 limits on carbon pollution. I am a mom to three 

13 small children, all who will be directly impacted 

14 in a positive way by these carbon emissions 

15 standards.

16 And to remind everyone today of why we 

17 are here, I'll give you a small glimpse into my 

18 own very real American home. My oldest, Renaldo, 

19 is a fun-loving active four-year-old. He loves 

20 to go to my hometown of Erie, Pennsylvania, and 

21 swim in the Great Lakes.

22 This summer, I sat on the beach and I 

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1 wondered about where climate change will leave 

2 the Great Lakes Region. Will toxic algae blooms 

3 threaten the tourism industry? Will climate 

4 change bring about more unpredictable seasons, 

5 wreaking havoc on everyday lives? Personally, I 

6 can't handle my kids being home anymore. They've 

7 been home far too often lately.

8 Our rapidly changing climate is directly 

9 linked to human activity, and cutting carbon is 

10 crucial, is a crucial step in addressing climate 

11 change.

12 Fiona is my middle daughter. She's two. 

13 She had her first asthmatic episode shortly 

14 before her first birthday. For her sake, and for 

15 the nearly one in five children in my home state 

16 of Pennsylvania suffering from asthma, it is time 

17 to set healthy and safe levels of carbon 

18 pollution. Increases in high-heat days and 

19 ground-level ozone are dangerous for children,

20 like my Fiona, who suffer from respiratory 

21 illness.

22 My youngest, Decklan (phonetic), is only 

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1 nine months old. He suffers from mast cell 

2 disease. With the warming climate, allergy 

3 seasons have become increasingly longer and more 

4 difficult for people to manage. Even on daily 

5 medication, his little body can barely cope with 

6 allergy triggers as is. And I am extremely 

7 worried for our future if we don't slow the 

8 threat of climate change.

9 As a mom, I actually want to give the EPA 

10 some advice today. Cleaning up our air at this 

11 point is similar to trying to clean up my 

12 playroom with my toddlers in tow. So I urge you: 

13 Work harder, work smarter, and work faster. I 

14 urge you today to move forward to finalize these 

15 carbon pollution standards for new-source power 

16 plants, and move ahead without reservation to 

17 limit carbon pollution from existing sources.

18 The time to clean up the air for the 

19 health of our children is now. And I thank you 

20 today for working, and throughout the coming 

21 year, to set strong carbon standards on pollution 

22 from fossil-fuel-powered plants. Thank you very 

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1 much.

2 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

3 MS. ADDLESON: Hi. My name is Kathleen 

4 Pollard Addleson. I'm here today representing 

5 myself. And I'm also here to represent the 

6 hundreds of Virginians that I've spoken with on 

7 this topic who cannot be here today.

8 I appreciate the opportunity to testify 

9 and would mainly like to use it to thank everyone 

10 here at the EPA and beyond whose diligence and 

11 patience has gone into the difficult task of 

12 setting these proposed standards. Your hard work 

13 is so deeply appreciated.

14 Those of us watching this process unfold 

15 have no illusions about the challenge of setting 

16 standards that are strong enough to protect 

17 public health while respecting the limitations of 

18 our technology and infrastructure. You are on 

19 the front lines of developing a new energy 

20 paradigm for our country which will, hopefully, 

21 set a positive example for other countries and 

22 eventually change the energy paradigm around the 

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1 world.

2 Nothing worth doing comes easy. But the 

3 effort always pays off. Thank you for your 

4 persistence, and please keep up the good work.

5 As Program Manager with the Virginia 

6 Sierra Club, I have the privilege of meeting with 

7 countless of Virginians who are anxious to see 

8 limits on carbon pollution -- parents whose 

9 children suffer from asthma, not unlike Gretchen, 

10 fishermen concerned about the health of the bay 

11 and our rivers, young professionals trying to get 

12 a foothold in emerging energy industries, 

13 teachers and local officials trying to educate 

14 their students and peers about the need to reduce 

15 our use of fossil fuels.

16 In fact, recent polling has shown that 

17 not only the majority of Virginians, but the 

18 majority of Americans are eager to reduce our use 

19 of fossil fuels in order to reduce carbon 

20 pollution and other greenhouse gas emissions that 

21 they see are changing the climate around them.

22 The American people, on the whole, are 

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1 behind you, despite the refusal of many of our 

2 elected leaders to acknowledge it. Evidence of 

3 that is in average Americans' recognition of 

4 these issues and changing their own personal 

5 behavior to reflect their concerns, doing what 

6 they can do personally to reduce their carbon 

7 footprints every day. But we rely on our 

8 governments to reform our policies and require 

9 our utility companies to do the same.

10 Finalizing these standards is one of the 

11 most important things that the EPA has the power 

12 to do at this time, and we really appreciate 

13 everything that you're doing to achieve this 

14 goal.

15 While we are grateful also to the 

16 companies who provide our power, every business 

17 reaches a point where it must adapt to stay 

18 relevant in a changing time. Although it is 

19 somewhat more difficult to measure, the pollution 

20 affecting our communities comes with great cost. 

21 Transitioning to a clean energy economy will make 

22 us more sustainable and resilient.

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1 It is not surprising that the coal 

2 industry is putting up a fight. These companies 

3 see their electric opportunities in danger of 

4 shrinking after hundreds of years of being the 

5 dominant fuel source. But the future wellbeing 

6 of a whole community, much less a whole society, 

7 cannot be determined by the potential lost 

8 profits of any one interest.

9 That is why you should not let your 

10 consideration of one industry trump factors like 

11 public health, accessibility to clean air and 

12 water, and protecting sustainable agriculture.

13 The stakes are high, which is all the 

14 more reason the decision to act now is so 

15 critical. Please be assured that you are on the 

16 right track. Because for every one American who 

17 says these standards will do more harm than good, 

18 or questions the need for them, there are two who 

19 support your efforts or think the government 

20 should be doing more.

21 I was raised to respect and appreciate 

22 the beauty of America and always leave a place 

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1 better than I found it. I feel that that's what 

2 the EPA is setting out to do with these 

3 standards, and appreciate your efforts. The 

4 majority of us are extremely grateful.

5 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you. Thank 

6 you.

7 (Pause.)

8 MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 

9 L. Jeremy Richardson and Howard Feldman.

10 MR. RICHARDSON: Thanks, Kevin, Nick, and 

11 Erika.

12 My name is Jeremy Richardson, and I'm a 

13 Senior Energy Analyst at the Union of Concerned 

14 Scientists. USC is the nation's leading science15 based nonprofit organ for a healthy environment 

16 and a safer world.

17 I have a unique perspective on reducing 

18 greenhouse gas emissions from burning of fossil 

19 fuels. As a scientist, I understand the urgency 

20 to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to protect the 

21 planet's climate.

22 As the brother, son, and grandson of West 

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1 Virginia coalminers, the question of exactly how 

2 we tackle climate change is deeply personal to 

3 me.

4 First, on behalf of UCS's more than 

5 350,000 supporters, I want to say today that we 

6 strongly support the Environmental Protection 

7 Agency's efforts to limit carbon emissions from 

8 fossil-fuel-fired plants under the Clean Air Act. 

9 Simultaneously, I want to emphasize the need for 

10 special consideration for the families and 

11 communities facing the negative consequences of 

12 the transition to a cleaner low-carbon energy 

13 system.

14 Human-induced climate change is already 

15 having impacts that are being felt by people here 

16 in American and around the world. If we 

17 collectively fail to make deep reductions in our 

18 carbon emissions, we will greatly increase the 

19 risk of serious economic, health, and 

20 environmental consequences from accelerating sea 

21 level rise, storm surges, heat waves, drought, 

22 wildfires, more frequent heavy downpours, and 

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1 increased hurricane intensity.

2 These impacts are a direct consequence of 

3 the increasing concentration of greenhouse gases 

4 like carbon dioxide in our planet's atmosphere. 

5 Power plants are the largest single U.S. source 

6 of carbon dioxide emissions, representing about 

7 40 percent of the total. Reducing emissions from 

8 the electric power sector is therefore crucial to 

9 our overall efforts to tackle climate change.

10 These facts compel us to act and to act 

11 decisively. In doing so, we must recognize that 

12 some regions of our country are facing a heavier 

13 burden than others in accelerating this 

14 transition to a less-fossil-intensive electricity 

15 system.

16 The standard for new natural gas power 

17 plants, 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide per 

18 megawatt hour, could be reduced to 850, a level 

19 that is already achievable by new natural gas 

20 combined-cycle plants. With the proposed limit 

21 of 1,100 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour for new 

22 coal-fired power plants, EPA has established 

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1 partial carbon capture and sequestration, CCS, as 

2 the best system of emission reductions, leaving 

3 room for coal with CCS in our future electric 

4 power mix.

5 In setting the standard, EPA has chosen a 

6 sensible middle-of-the-road approach. CCS is a 

7 viable technological solution. Although not yet 

8 commercially deployed at scale with a large coal 

9 plant, the component technologies have been 

10 commercially demonstrated, and many projects are 

11 under development in the U.S. and around the 

12 world.

13 Regardless of the EPA's carbon standard, 

14 EIA projects that very few coal plants will be 

15 built anyway. The reason is simple. Multiple 

16 market forces are making coal-fired power too 

17 expensive relative to other, cheaper, less18 polluting options like natural gas, renewable 

19 energy, and energy efficiency.

20 It is also critical that EPA stay on the 

21 timeline that President Obama set forth to 

22 develop carbon pollution standards for existing 

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1 power plants, the main source of current 

2 emissions. UCS recommends a strong and flexible 

3 standard that will allow renewable energy and 

4 energy efficiency to play a significant role in 

5 achieving deep carbon emissions reductions at an 

6 affordable cost. 

7 This will help lower the cost of 

8 compliance and avoid an over-reliance on natural 

9 gas, which comes itself with significant 

10 economic, climate, health, and environmental 

11 risks.

12 To do this effectively and to lower the 

13 overall costs of compliance further, EPA must 

14 adopt a systems-based approach to regulating 

15 emissions from the power sector as a whole, 

16 instead of a source-based approach, which focuses 

17 only on reductions possible at the regulated 

18 fossil-fired plants.

19 States have a major role to play in 

20 developing implementation plans for carbon 

21 standards. Together with federal policy makers, 

22 states should help ensure that economic 

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1 diversification and resources for worker 

2 transition are an important part of their plan.

3 MR. CULLIGAN: Could you try to wrap up? 

4 I'm sorry. You're at five minutes.

5 MR. HUTSON: No, he's not.

6 MR. CULLIGAN: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. 

7 MR. RICHARDSON: In doing so, together we 

8 can not only establish a strong standard to 

9 protect the planet's climate, but also ensure 

10 that workers and communities have fresh economic 

11 opportunities as market forces drive a shift away 

12 from coal.

13 I do not accept this as an either–or 

14 proposition. Our children and grandchildren will 

15 face the risks of a vastly different climate 

16 caused by our failure to act to reduce emissions 

17 today. My young niece, and maybe someday her 

18 children and grandchildren, will face an 

19 uncertain future if we don't get the second part 

20 right, too. It is much harder, but it is 

21 imperative that we do both. Thank you.

22 MR. CULLIGAN: Sorry for interrupting 

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1 you. I was misreading the light.

2 MR. FELDMAN: Good morning. I'm Howard 

3 Feldman with the American Petroleum Institute. 

4 Thank you for this opportunity to talk to you 

5 today.

6 As you know, API has actively 

7 participated in previous greenhouse gas listening 

8 sessions in 2011, 2013. We provided detailed 

9 comments in 2012. So we're an active player in 

10 this area. I'd like to make a couple of 

11 overarching points.

12 Number one. This regulatory effort goes 

13 beyond the authorization of Congress and the 

14 Clean Air Act, period.

15 Overarching point number two. API is 

16 concerned about how any rules may impact 

17 electricity prices, impact fuel supply and 

18 demand, set precedents for other sectors, and 

19 affect tertiary oil recovery. We have special 

20 concerns as the API.

21 We have members who have facilities that 

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1 gen operations embedded in our facilities, very 

2 often. Some refineries use refineries gas, some 

3 use natural gas, but those are actual facilities 

4 that could, ultimately, get wrapped into rules 

5 for EGU's. And some EGU regulations may not be 

6 appropriate for our industry.

7 Furthermore, our members have experience 

8 with EOR that can be shared with EPA, and we'd be 

9 happy to work with EPA on that. So that's 

10 something we're offering right now.

11 We have several policy points we'd like 

12 to make. One, EPA is not compelled to proceed 

13 with the proposed rule. We think, if anything, 

14 EPA should be issuing an advanced notice of 

15 proposed rulemaking before moving forward.

16 We think that EPA cannot proceed because 

17 it has not made a significant -- not made a 

18 finding that a significant contribution of 

19 endangerment determination for GHG's exists from 

20 the regulated source category.

21 EPA cannot use Section 111 to regulate 

22 fuel choice with the practical consequence of 

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1 trying to remove one fuel type from the mix.

2 And we think EPA has failed to do any 

3 meaningful cost–benefit analysis in any of the 

4 GHG rules. We think, from a technology 

5 perspective, EPA should not mandate the use of 

6 any specific control equipment. If anything 

7 should be proposed, it should be achievable 

8 energy efficiency measures.

9 CCS is not adequately demonstrated, and 

10 therefore not the SER for GHG emissions. EPA 

11 should not mandate technologies that are simply 

12 unproven and yet have not been determined to be 

13 backed anyplace.

14 The oil and gas industry successfully 

15 uses CO2 EOR in some locations. Based on our 

16 experience, there are significant technical, 

17 regulatory, and policy roadblocks to scaling up 

18 capture transportation and sequestration across 

19 the EGU fleet. We think any proposals should be 

20 consistent with the tailoring rule.

21 Furthermore, we think there's no need to 

22 move this GHG NSPS to other sectors. EPA has no 

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1 binding authority to issue 111B proposals in this 

2 case or certainly on any other sectors.

3 And moving on to the manufacturing 

4 sector, we think the EGU's, of course, are about 

5 10 times larger than any other manufacturing 

6 sector. And manufacturing sectors already 

7 strongly incentivize by energy efficiency to 

8 reduce energy use and GHGs. And GHG NSPS would 

9 be very inefficient and inappropriate for 

10 manufacturing due to their trade exposure.

11 Especially the refinery industry is 

12 already strongly incentivized towards energy 

13 efficiency. Energy is the second-largest cost of 

14 refineries. Less-efficient refineries have 

15 closed over recent years.

16 The refinery industry also is already 

17 impacted by a blizzard of regulations from EPA. 

18 Coming up now, we're expecting the Tier 3 rule to 

19 come out, which will increase GHG emissions from 

20 refineries. So you're putting a rule in place 

21 that will have that effect. And the refining 

22 industry is much more complex than EGU's.

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1 So, in closing, we'd like to say that 

2 imposing GHG NSPS on utilities, and later on 

3 manufacturing industries, including refineries, 

4 is unnecessary. It is poor public policy, will 

5 likely cost the country jobs. And ANPR instead 

6 should be used instead of the current proposal, 

7 along with sufficient notice and comment periods, 

8 which altogether may help preclude any unintended 

9 consequences. Thank you.

10 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you.

11 And, Howard, one of the things you 

12 mentioned was the potential that the definition 

13 for EGU's could bring in co-generators at 

14 refineries and other industries. It would 

15 definitely be helpful -- I presume you guys are 

16 going to submit written comments?

17 MR. FELDMAN: Yes, we will.

18 MR. CULLIGAN: It would be helpful if you 

19 guys could -- if one of the things you could 

20 address is if the current as-proposed definition,

21 if applied to existing sources, would do that. 

22 And how you think it --

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1 MR. FELDMAN: The answer is yes, and we 

2 will address that in our comments.

3 MR. CULLIGAN: That would be very 

4 helpful. Thank you.

5 MR. FELDMAN: So, you have to remember 

6 that as you're going forward with the rule.

7 MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 

8 Zoe Berkery and Chelsea Tu.

9 MS. BERKERY: I'm Zoe Berkery.

10 MR. CULLIGAN: Do we have Chelsea Tu?

11 (Pause.)

12 MR. CULLIGAN: Go ahead.

13 MS. BERKERY: Thank you for the 

14 opportunity to participate in this public hearing 

15 on the Environmental Protection Agency's carbon 

16 dioxide emissions limits for new power plants.

17 My name is Zoe Berkery, and I am a policy 

18 associate with the Business Council for 

19 Sustainable Energy. The Business Council for 

20 Sustainable Energy is a coalition of companies 

21 and trade associations from the energy 

22 efficiency, natural gas, and renewable energy 

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1 sectors, and also includes independent electric 

2 power producers, investor-owned utilities, public 

3 power, commercial end users, and environmental 

4 and energy market service providers.

5 Founded in 1992, the council advocates 

6 for policies at the state, national, and 

7 international levels that increase the use of 

8 commercially available clean energy technologies, 

9 products, and services.

10 The coalition's diverse business 

11 membership is united around the revitalization of 

12 the economy and the creation of a secure and 

13 sustainable energy future for America.

14 BCSE applauds the EPA's release of 

15 revised standards for carbon emissions from new 

16 sources under Section 111B of the Clean Air Act. 

17 Clean energy technologies, the energy efficiency, 

18 renewable energy, and natural gas sectors offer 

19 commercially available options to reduce 

20 emissions.

21 Clarity from EPA on standards from power 

22 plant emissions will help inform investment 

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1 decisions in the power sector. EPA's carbon 

2 standards will send signals to the market to 

3 utilize a broad portfolio of clean energy 

4 technologies and will lead to job creation in 

5 these sectors.

6 The BCSE believes it is important to note 

7 the revised carbon rules for new power plants 

8 continue to utilize output-based standards, which 

9 is critical to spur investment in energy 

10 efficiency and clean generation in the power 

11 sector. The council strongly supports output12 based standards and commends EPA for adopting 

13 this approach in their revised new-source carbon 

14 rule.

15 In addition, a look back at the last five 

16 years shows that clean energy sources are 

17 contributing to reductions in U.S. greenhouse gas 

18 emissions. Energy efficiency, renewable energy, 

19 and natural gas are mainly responsible for the 

20 mainly 10 percent decline in U.S. greenhouse gas 

21 emissions since 2005, taking the country more 

22 than halfway to President Obama's goal of 

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1 achieving a 17 percent reduction in emissions by 

2 2020.

3 As such, in regards to EPA's pending rule 

4 on the regulation of carbon from existing 

5 sources, BCSE recommends that energy efficiency, 

6 including combined heat and power, waste heat to 

7 power, and utilization of waste heat recovery, 

8 the full set of renewable energy options, as well 

9 as natural gas and propane, be made eligible as 

10 compliance options under the EPA guidelines for 

11 limiting carbon dioxide emissions from existing 

12 power plants.

13 Not only will the use of these 

14 technologies help to reduce emissions and service 

15 cost-effective compliance options, they will also 

16 help grow the economy, create jobs, and 

17 strengthen our energy system through its 

18 diversification.

19 Thank you so much for your time.

20 MR. CULLIGAN: Thanks. Just want to 

21 check one more time. Is Chelsea here?

22 (Pause.)

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1 MS. TU: Hi. Good morning. Hi. My name 

2 is Chelsea Tu, and I'm legal fellow for the 

3 Center for Biological Diversity, a national 

4 environmental advocacy organization. I'm here to 

5 deliver the center's top-line comments regarding 

6 the EPA's new carbon standards for new power 

7 plants.

8 First, we'd like to emphasize the 

9 proposed rule does not achieve the emissions 

10 reductions necessary in light of both climate 

11 science and the requirements of the Clean Air 

12 Act. In fact, it won't achieve meaningful 

13 emissions reductions at all.

14 Scientists tell us that we must reduce 

15 emissions quickly and dramatically in order to 

16 preserve a likely chance of avoiding the worst 

17 impacts of climate disruption. EPA acknowledges 

18 that the Clean Air Act requires the Agency to set 

19 new-source performance standards that would 

20 achieve the maximum feasible emissions 

21 reductions.

22 Yet EPA has proposed a standard that, by 

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1 its own admission, will result in negligible CO2 

2 emissions changes between now and 2022. This is 

3 because the EPA expects nearly all new EGU's to 

4 be NGCC units, due to the wide availability and 

5 low price of natural gas as a result of new 

6 drilling methods. The bottom line is we cannot 

7 frack our way out of climate change.

8 Second, the proposed rule contains no 

9 meaningful emissions reductions for natural gas 

10 plants, particularly to NGCC plants the EPA 

11 anticipates will make up for the vast majority of 

12 new plants built over the next eight years.

13 If EPA is correct, that few, if any, coal 

14 plants will be built, and at least some will be 

15 built will have at least partial CCS, then EPA's 

16 CCS-based standards for coal plants will not 

17 meaningfully reduce emissions from the power 

18 sector. Accordingly, any meaningful reductions 

19 will have to come from the standards for natural 

20 gas combustion plants because these are the 

21 plants EPA expects to be built.

22 EPA's proposed standards could be met by 

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1 more than 90 percent of existing NGCC plants. 

2 The standards thus run counter to the factors 

3 that the courts have said EPA must consider in 

4 setting an NSPS, particularly the requirements 

5 that a standard must result in maximum feasible 

6 emissions reductions and that it must promote new 

7 technology.

8 The proposed rule contains no analysis of 

9 how or whether greater NGCC efficiencies and 

10 therefore lower emissions standards are 

11 achievable at a reasonable cost. Again, the mere 

12 availability of cheap natural gas cannot suffice 

13 to meet the Clean Air Act's requirements.

14 Finally, the proposed rule is riddled 

15 with unjustified exceptions and loopholes. EPA 

16 has exempted modifications and reconstructions of 

17 existing sources from the proposed standards, 

18 even though the Clean Air Act defines these as 

19 new sources that should be subject to the 

20 standards.

21 The rule also provides special coal plant 

22 exemptions. EPA has exempted at least one, and 

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1 as many as three, specific new coal-fired plants 

2 from the standards based on unsupported developer 

3 claims about construction status that EPA itself 

4 has not bothered to verify.

5 Regarding biomass, EPA correctly proposes 

6 to treat biogenic CO2 the same as fossil CO2 in 

7 determining compliance with the standards. 

8 However, EPA has failed to set a standard that 

9 includes biomass power plants, which can emit 

10 more than three times as much CO2 per megawatt 

11 hour from the stack as natural gas plants.

12 Unlike other renewable generation 

13 facilities, biomass power plants contribute 

14 significant amounts of CO2 to the atmosphere and 

15 should be subject to emissions standards.

16 This concludes our topic and comments. 

17 And the comments may not represent the center's 

18 final position on this matter. The center will 

19 also submit final written comments to the EPA. 

20 Thank you so much for your time.

21 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you very much.

22 (Pause.)

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1 MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 

2 Nancy Ross and Jacqueline Patterson.

3 MS. ROSS: Hello. I'm Nancy Ross. I'm 

4 speaking on behalf of myself. I have done a lot 

5 of traveling abroad, and to see the effects of 

6 pollution in countries where you have been is 

7 incredible.

8 We do not need to have the type of 

9 situations that are in China, where we're talking 

10 about very expensive ways of correcting air 

11 pollution from use of coal and other energy. And 

12 so, I recommend -- I'm not a technical expert. I 

13 have a Ph.D. in political science, nothing to do 

14 with the scientific foundations of this.

15 But I know that America is very creative. 

16 And if we have tough standards, the industry will 

17 come up with ways to solve the problems. We are 

18 not a country that is not able to find the ways 

19 of doing things.

20 And we do have alternatives. I did a 

21 little sort of beginning analysis of what it 

22 would do to the economy if we just gave free 

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1 solar panels to all roofs that were at all 

2 qualified. And it would have solved some of the 

3 problems that we had for energy. So I mean, we 

4 can -- there are alternatives. We do not have to 

5 jeopardize our children's future, their health, 

6 and other commodities. Thank you very much.

7 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. You can stay.

8 MS. PATTERSON: Okay. So, my name is 

9 Jacqueline Patterson. I'm with the NAACP. And 

10 according to the cold-blooded report released by 

11 the indigenous environmental network, the Little 

12 Village Environmental Justice Organization, and 

13 the NAACP in 2012, approximately 70 percent of 

14 African Americans live within 30 miles of a coal15 fired power plant.

16 This means African Americans are 

17 disproportionately living in circumstances where 

18 the millions of tons of carbon pollution coming 

19 from these plants create what scientists call "a 

20 dome effect," resulting in trapping, 

21 concentrating, and intensifying the myriad toxins 

22 we already breathe every day.

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1 With the mercury, arsenic, lead, dioxins, 

2 and other pollutants that already come from power 

3 plants, these domes effectively create lethal gas 

4 chambers for communities nationwide. We see the 

5 results of this in the rates of respiratory 

6 illnesses in African Americans. Even though we 

7 have lower smoking rates, African Americans are 

8 more likely to die of lung disease.

9 Nationwide, our children are three times 

10 more likely to be admitted to hospital for an 

11 asthma attack and twice as likely to die of 

12 asthma attacks. In some areas, the statistics 

13 are even worse. At the same time, carbon dioxide 

14 is the number-one driver of climate change. And 

15 power plants are the leading emitters of carbon 

16 dioxide.

17 When I did hurricane relief after 

18 Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, the throngs of folks 

19 who walk through the doors of disaster recovery 

20 centers every day were largely African American. 

21 And it was the same when I did tornado relief in 

22 Alabama. Because unfortunately, African 

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1 Americans are among the groups that are most 

2 vulnerable to disaster impacts.

3 In recent years, we've seen farmers from 

4 Texas to Illinois to Iowa to Mississippi and 

5 beyond lose crops both to floods and to droughts. 

6 And we know that the West is experiencing record 

7 droughts right now. At the same time as our food 

8 supply is being threatened, we recognize the 

9 differential vulnerability of Latino and African 

10 American children who are already living in food 

11 deserts with high rates of hunger due to lack of 

12 access to nutritious foods.

13 I've visited the coastal communities from 

14 Thibodaux, Louisiana, to Kivalina, Alaska, who 

15 are already experiencing coastal erosion and are 

16 facing displacement in the next 20 years due to 

17 sea level rise. And scientists say that we've 

18 only begun to see these impacts.

19 The cost of inaction on carbon pollution 

20 is clear, with vulnerable communities being hit 

21 first and worst. At the same time, we can't 

22 afford to pay the cost of putting old wine in new 

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1 wineskins, to quote the Bible. Carbon-capture 

2 sequestration is unproven. It doesn't address 

3 the cradle-to-grave harms caused by processing 

4 coal for electricity production, and it is 

5 grossly expensive, as demonstrated by the gross 

6 cost overruns at the Kemper County plant in 

7 Mississippi. This money should instead go to 

8 research and development for storage and 

9 transmission of clean energy.

10 The history of decades of pollution from 

11 coal plants is one of the leading reasons that we 

12 are now at the brink of generalized catastrophic 

13 climate change, a level of destruction many of us 

14 are already experiencing. By enacting strong 

15 pollution standards, we must get this situation 

16 under control for all of our sakes. Thank you.

17 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

18 Our next two speakers are Paul Ferguson 

19 and Seth Heald.

20 MR. FERGUSON: Good morning. I'm Paul 

21 Ferguson. I'm the Clerk of the Circuit Court in 

22 Arlington County, Virginia, formerly Chairman of 

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1 the Arlington County Board, which is our local 

2 governing authority.

3 I want to thank you for having this 

4 hearing. I would say that I'm impressed in how 

5 it runs on time and people can sign up for a slot 

6 and get in and out and get back to work. So, 

7 congratulations on the efficiency of the hearing.

8 Quite simply, we -- I am here in support 

9 of the President's proposal and the EPA proposal 

10 to limit carbon emissions on existing power 

11 plants. If we as a nation are serious about 

12 reducing greenhouse gas emissions, we have to 

13 regulate existing power plants. If we do not do 

14 this, then there's continued incentive to patch 

15 up the old power plants and not invest in the new 

16 ones.

17 We are, as a nation, I believe, making 

18 progress in the field of auto efficiency and 

19 truck efficiencies. But we probably have not 

20 made the progress that we should as far as 

21 regulating emissions from power plants. I know 

22 there's details to be worked out. There's 

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1 certainly more that could be done. But the more 

2 important thing is that it is being addressed and 

3 that we don't delay further.

4 So, thank you for providing the 

5 opportunity for Arlington County to go on record 

6 as supporting the President's proposal and EPA 

7 proposal.

8 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

9 MR. HEALD: Good morning. My name is 

10 Seth Heald. I'm the Vice Chair of the Sierra 

11 Club's Virginia Chapter. Virginia is a coal 

12 state. A substantial amount of coal is mined in 

13 Virginia, and our largest utility, Dominion 

14 Resources, burns a lot of coal, making Dominion 

15 the largest carbon dioxide emitter in the 

16 Commonwealth.

17 But Virginia is also a coastal state. A 

18 huge portion of Virginia's economy is connected 

19 to military, industrial, and tourism facilities 

20 along the entire coast, and particularly in the 

21 Hampton Roads area, which includes Norfolk and a 

22 number of other towns around that area.

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1 Hampton Roads and these facilities face 

2 serious threats from the sea level rise and 

3 severe storms that are and will be caused in 

4 large part by carbon dioxide emissions. Among 

5 our crucial threatened infrastructure in that 

6 area are Naval Station Norfolk, the largest naval 

7 base in the world, and Newport News Shipbuilding, 

8 the sole facility where America's aircraft 

9 carriers are built and refueled.

10 Also on Virginia's coast a little farther 

11 up is Nassau's facility at Wallops Island, on 

12 Virginia's Eastern Shore. It's similarly at 

13 great risk from climate change. Now, these are 

14 just a few examples. There are many other 

15 military, industrial, and tourism-related 

16 facilities along the coast that are either at or 

17 very close to sea level and in grave danger right 

18 now.

19 Last week, I attended a conference on sea 

20 level rise at the College of William and Mary in 

21 Williamsburg. We heard of the grave threats to 

22 the military facilities and other facilities in 

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1 Virginia's coastal areas. We heard from speakers 

2 like Rear Admiral Jonathan White, who is the 

3 Oceanographer of the Navy. He spoke very 

4 compellingly about the threats that our nation 

5 faces because of the sea level rise, which in the 

6 Hampton Roads area is particularly serious, one 

7 of the two or three most serious, seriously 

8 affected areas in the United States and one of 

9 the most in the world.

10 We also heard from Joe Bouchard, former 

11 naval -- former Commander of Naval Station 

12 Norfolk, who talked about the efforts to try to 

13 make that base more resilient. It's going to 

14 cost a lot of money. It's possible that it may 

15 not even succeed. This is a huge effect on our 

16 economy, both America's economy and Virginia's 

17 economy.

18 There were local government officials and 

19 citizens attending the conference. We heard from 

20 them both as speakers and as questioners in the 

21 sessions. They were learning about measures that 

22 they need to take right now to deal with the 

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1 urgent threat of climate change.

2 Just up the road from Williamsburg is 

3 Jamestown, Virginia, very historic place, a major 

4 tourist attraction. Scientists predict that 

5 Jamestown will be submerged by the end of this 

6 century because of sea level rise because of 

7 carbon, in large part because of carbon dioxide 

8 emissions.

9 Some jobs will be lost in many industries 

10 because of sea level rise, drought, and more 

11 severe storms due to climate change. Many other 

12 jobs will be created as we work to adapt to 

13 climate change and to shift to a de-carbonized 

14 energy economy.

15 Of course, we need to work to help those 

16 whose jobs may be lost, as well as those whose 

17 property or businesses are at risk from 

18 destruction by sea level rise and other climate 

19 threats. But we should not let any one 

20 industry's concerns deter us from the urgent need 

21 to reduce carbon emissions now.

22 The Supreme Court has said that the EPA 

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1 should regulate carbon dioxide emissions if they 

2 pose a threat to health and welfare. And they 

3 certainly do pose a grave threat. The coal and 

4 the electric power industries have had decades to 

5 prepare for this moment. The threat of global 

6 warming from carbon dioxide emissions has been 

7 known for some 40 years or more.

8 So it's entirely reasonable, and in fact, 

9 necessary that any new coal-fired power plants 

10 that might be built include carbon capture and 

11 sequestration to ensure that we meet our goal of 

12 preventing catastrophic climate change.

13 I want to thank the EPA and commend you 

14 for proposing these reasonable limits on carbon 

15 dioxide emissions and thank you for your time.

16 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you very much.

17 (Pause.)

18 MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 

19 Patricia Bruckbauer and Eric Goplerud.

20 MS. BRUCKBAUER: My name is Trisha 

21 Bruckbauer, and I am here on behalf of Creation 

22 Justice Ministries. We represent 37 Christian 

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1 denominations and their policies related to 

2 creation care.

3 We are a diverse group, from mainline 

4 Protestants to Baptists, and orthodox traditions 

5 to evangelicals. One of the few things that we 

6 all agree on is the need to care for God's planet 

7 and to seek justice for those being harmed by 

8 environmental carelessness.

9 I sat in this seat a few months ago to 

10 comment on carbon regulations for existing power 

11 plants. And today I'm here to offer our faith 

12 community's response to the rule on new power 

13 plants.

14 We view climate change as the moral issue 

15 of our time and feel we have an obligation to 

16 reverse the implications of our careless actions. 

17 As Christians, we are called to be stewards of 

18 the land that was gifted to us and ensure that we 

19 leave this planet better for the next generation.

20 While we have a responsibility to the 

21 planet and to honor and maintain the great gifts 

22 of clean water, air, and land, we are also called 

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1 to care for our neighbors. Climate change 

2 disproportionately impacts vulnerable populations 

3 such as communities of color, low-income 

4 communities, women, and children. We must ensure 

5 that we are doing all that we can to improve the 

6 health and quality of life of our neighbors that 

7 generally contribute the least to pollution and 

8 our changing climate, but suffer the most.

9 You have stated that the implementation 

10 of this rule is not expected to impact 

11 electricity prices or reliability. We must 

12 ensure that this becomes a reality, and 

13 specifically that low-income consumers do not 

14 bear heavy burdens from this necessary rule.

15 Our faith community fully supports the 

16 overall goal of this rule. However, we have 

17 concerns regarding the inclusion of carbon 

18 capture and storage technologies as an option for 

19 reducing carbon emissions for new power plants.

20 We do not yet fully understand the 

21 impacts of CCS on the earth, the long-term 

22 effectiveness of storing carbon dioxide 

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1 underground, or the impacts this may have on our 

2 communities. Instead, states and utilities 

3 around the country should be investing in proven 

4 renewable technologies. We urge you to 

5 reconsider the inclusion of CCS; however, in no 

6 way should this slow the timeline for 

7 implementation of this rule.

8 Last week, in his State of the Union 

9 address, President Obama stated that, "When our 

10 children's children look us in the eye and ask if 

11 we did all we could to leave them a safer, more 

12 stable world, with new sources of energy, I want 

13 us to be able to say, 'Yes, we did.'"

14 As a recent college graduate, I am part 

15 of that next generation, a child who inherited a 

16 changing climate. So while I am driven by my 

17 faith and called to care for the earth, I am also 

18 compelled to speak out, because this is my 

19 future. It is a sad and frightening reality when 

20 it has become normal to vilify the EPA, but 

21 radical to ask for clean air and water.

22 Jobs and profits are tangible benefits 

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1 that I can understand and value. Climate change 

2 and health impacts for future generations seem 

3 abstract. But I cannot believe that earning 

4 profits will mean anything if my brothers and 

5 sisters do not have a safe and healthy planet to 

6 live on.

7 Christians believe that we are merely 

8 tenants on this earth, and therefore, we are 

9 connected to those that came before us and those 

10 that come after. This means that we are 

11 dependent on the decisions of the past, and the 

12 next generations will be dependent on the 

13 decisions that we are making right now.

14 Whether you ascribe to a Christian world 

15 view or not, there is no denying that there's a 

16 moral imperative to care for the earth. I want 

17 to leave you with a quote from Lutheran 

18 Theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer was a 

19 German pastor that was instrumental in the Nazi 

20 resistance during World War II. So I think it's 

21 safe to assume that he can speak to morality.

22 Bonhoeffer writes, "The ultimate test of 

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1 a moral society is the kind of world that it 

2 leaves to its children. Let's hope that we can 

3 continue to take steps forward to not only pass 

4 this test, but excel." Thank you.

5 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

6 MR. GOPLERUD: Those are profound words. 

7 Thank you.

8 Good morning. I'm Eric Goplerud. And 

9 I'm speaking on behalf of the Unitarian 

10 Universalist Congregation of Fairfax, Virginia, 

11 and the Faith Alliance for Climate Solutions. We 

12 are a growing faith alliance organized for 

13 climate change solutions as an urgent moral, 

14 spiritual responsibility to protect future 

15 generations.

16 The United States leads the world in many 

17 areas, but it is lagging when it comes to climate 

18 change solutions. We in the U.S. have the 

19 resources and the know-how to be a leader in 

20 climate change solutions. We can start with 

21 steps that will save taxpayers money, make us 

22 more efficient, and enhance our quality of life. 

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1 All of these steps will be good for the economy.

2 In November, our congregation, UUCF, 

3 overwhelmingly approved a congregational 

4 resolution on climate change. The resolution, 

5 which I will leave with you, states in part, 

6 quote, "We affirm the value of life, the 

7 sacredness of each person, and all life on the 

8 planet. Global climate change is fundamentally a 

9 moral, ethical, and social justice crisis. We 

10 have a responsibility to work with faith 

11 communities everywhere to act to avert and limit 

12 the potential catastrophe of climate change.

13 "Although options exist for avoiding the 

14 worst consequences of climate change and for 

15 limiting the effects of past and current 

16 greenhouse gas pollution, we are fast approaching 

17 tipping points. UUCF affirms that we ground our 

18 mission and our ministries in reverence for the 

19 earth.

20 "We call for the U.S. Government to 

21 counter the forces that are causing climate 

22 change and to do so within the short time we have 

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1 left to avert the worst of the climate chaos, to 

2 dramatically reduce pollution from power plant 

3 energy sources, especially coal- and gas-fired 

4 power plants, shifting to emission-free or very 

5 low-emission alternatives.

6 "We pledge help and call for our leaders 

7 to assist vulnerable and impoverished 

8 communities, including those who will be affected 

9 by changes in coal and gas extraction, who will 

10 bear the greatest burdens from global climate 

11 change. We commit to taking personal and 

12 congregational responsibility for reducing our 

13 own climate footprint," end quote.

14 The UUCF Climate Change Resolution 

15 signifies that this issue is of highest 

16 importance and urgency for our members. Over the 

17 past 20 years, the congregation has voted on only 

18 three other resolutions. Together, we can make 

19 real measurable positive impacts that help to 

20 reverse the course on global warming and climate 

21 changes.

22 The Unitarian Universalist Association 

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1 2006 Statement of Conscience states, quote, "We 

2 declare that we will not acquiesce to the ongoing 

3 degradation and destruction of life that human 

4 actions are leaving to our children and our 

5 grandchildren."

6 The Unitarian Universalist Association 

7 has joined with other faith-based and secular 

8 investors with more than $900 billion in combined 

9 assets under management to strongly support the 

10 climate pollution standards on new power plants 

11 and to urge EPA to finalize the rule soon.

12 In a September 20 letter to President 

13 Obama, the UUA and the other investors stated, 

14 quote, "We urge the President and EPA to proceed 

15 with a program to reduce carbon pollution from 

16 existing power plants as a critical next step in 

17 reducing the impacts of climate change and 

18 catalyzing the burgeoning clean energy economy."

19 In the absence of climate legislation, 

20 EPA carbon pollution standards for new and 

21 existing power plants represent the best 

22 opportunity to limit risks of climate change. We 

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1 applaud the administration for its commitment to 

2 these standards and encourage the rapid 

3 finalization of strong new-source standards.

4 Climate change is one of the greatest 

5 moral, technical, and political issues in human 

6 history. The Faith Alliance for Climate 

7 Solutions and the Unitarian Universalist 

8 Congregation of Fairfax commit to live and act 

9 with hope that solutions will be developed, 

10 starting here with EPA, to reduce carbon 

11 pollution from new and existing power plants.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you.

14 (Pause.)

15 MR. CULLIGAN: And our next two speakers 

16 are John Novak and Felice Stadler.

17 MS. STADLER: Good morning. My name is 

18 Felice Stadler. I'm the Senior Director of 

19 National Wildlife Federation's Climate and Energy 

20 Program. And National Wildlife Federation is one 

21 of the nation's oldest and largest conservation 

22 organizations.

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1 I'm here today representing our 4 million 

2 members and supporters and the 150,000 wildlife 

3 advocates that are members of National Wildlife 

4 Federation that have already registered their 

5 formal support for your proposal to set first6 ever carbon limits on new power plants.

7 The public is on your side. A new poll 

8 shows that 77 percent of voters support the 

9 administration's plan to set carbon limits on 

10 power plants, and 3 million people already have 

11 submitted formal comments to EPA, registering 

12 their support for your proposed rule.

13 With the National Climate Data Center 

14 calling the 2000s the hottest decade on record, 

15 and 2013 the fourth-hottest summer on record, 

16 it's clearly time for an all-of-the-above 

17 approach to cutting climate-disrupting carbon 

18 pollution.

19 The coal industry likes to claim the 

20 administration is waging a war on coal. But 

21 let's be clear. It's the coal industry that has 

22 been waging a war on our wildlife, communities, 

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1 and clean air and water for decades. And now 

2 they're losing ground because the American public 

3 is standing up for climate solutions and clean 

4 energy.

5 It's only fair that if a company wants to 

6 build a new coal plant today, they should be 

7 required to install proven technology that will 

8 capture its carbon emissions, just like it should 

9 be required to cut its mercury and smog pollution 

10 -- no exceptions.

11 Polls show many Americans think these 

12 controls are already in place. So your efforts 

13 are long overdue.

14 We know that there is controversy around 

15 carbon capture and storage from all sides. So 

16 I'd like to articulate ours, which is informed by 

17 a resolution adopted by our affiliate 

18 organizations at our 2009 annual meeting.

19 Our resolution states that before the 

20 construction of any new coal-fired power plant, 

21 an assessment should be done and a determination 

22 made that alternatives, including energy 

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1 efficiency and renewable energy generation, are 

2 not viable to meet anticipated new demand, and 

3 that if a new coal plant is constructed, it be 

4 required to capture and permanently store its 

5 carbon emissions to the greatest degree feasible 

6 and achieve near-zero carbon emissions within 10 

7 years of startup.

8 We recognize that the EPA does not have 

9 the authority to incorporate all these elements 

10 in its new-source performance standard. But we 

11 applaud the Agency for taking the critical first 

12 step by setting a carbon emission limit that will 

13 further drive investments away from new coal 

14 plants toward cleaner cost-effective 

15 alternatives.

16 Where we hope the Agency will make 

17 adjustments is in how the proposed rule targets 

18 natural gas burning power plants. The Clean Air 

19 Act is intended to be technology forcing. So 

20 setting a carbon standard for new gas plants that 

21 don't prompt new plants to use better, cleaner 

22 technology misses the mark.

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1 We urge the Agency to revisit this before 

2 finalizing the rule and consider a more stringent 

3 carbon limit for new gas plants so that the 

4 standard is driving clean technology to achieve 

5 reductions for the entire utility sector.

6 Lastly, as the Agency works to finalize 

7 its rule and prepares to draft its carbon rule 

8 targeting existing power plants, we call on the 

9 EPA to move quickly in addressing methane 

10 pollution from gas production. It's an 

11 uncontrolled and potentially very sizable source 

12 that can be reined in cost-effectively.

13 In closing, the administration's plan to 

14 cut carbon pollution from the nation's power 

15 sector is the clean energy vision that we need to 

16 get behind. Getting off of carbon-intensive 

17 fuels is critical if we are to avert catastrophic 

18 climate change. And your proposed carbon rule is 

19 a down payment on that vision.

20 Thank you for your leadership on this 

21 important issue.

22 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

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1 MR. NOVAK: Kevin, I hope you didn't have 

2 the same flight delays I did last night getting 

3 back.

4 But, good morning. I'm going to read a 

5 statement. My name is John Novak. On behalf of 

6 the National Rural Electric Cooperative 

7 Association, NRECA, I appreciate the opportunity 

8 to speak here today.

9 We have some concerns with the potential 

10 application of the proposed standard for new 

11 natural-gas-fired combustion turbines to new gas 

12 peaking and intermediate units, and we will 

13 address those concerns in our written comments.

14 My comments today will focus on the 

15 proposed standard of performance for coal-fired 

16 units.

17 NRECA is a national service organization 

18 for more than 900 not-for-profit rural electric 

19 utilities that provide affordable, reliable 

20 electric service to approximately 42 million 

21 consumers in 47 states.

22 Why is the EPA proposal setting CO2 

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1 emissions limit for new fossil units important to 

2 cooperatives? As demonstrated by cold snaps just 

3 this winter, natural gas prices are volatile and 

4 spike even during shorter-term weather events. 

5 This has an immediate adverse effect on consumer 

6 electric bills.

7 Coal and its stable price is a long-term 

8 proven hedge against natural gas volatility, and 

9 it's critical if we are going to continue to 

10 provide affordable electricity to our members.

11 What is the impact of EPA's proposed 

12 standard to limit CO2 emissions from new coal 

13 units? EPA's proposal would require new units to 

14 install CO2 capture technology that is constantly 

15 and not commercially viable, effectively removing 

16 coal from use as a hedge against natural gas 

17 price swings.

18 There are areas of the country that will 

19 require additional electric capacity in the 

20 future, but do not have sufficient access to 

21 natural gas, do not have suitable sites for CO2 

22 storage or for enhanced oil recovery, and cannot 

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1 be supplied wholesale power reliably through the 

2 existing transmission grid. How will EPA 

3 reconcile elimination of new coal-fired capacity 

4 in these situations?

5 What are the factors that should be 

6 considered when setting a standard? The Clean 

7 Air Act precedent is that the best system of 

8 emission reduction is based on data from existing 

9 plants in the U.S. and worldwide, as appropriate. 

10 In view of existing performance and what can be 

11 reasonably anticipated, we think the best system 

12 is defined by improvements in thermal efficiency, 

13 an option that EPA has considered and rejected in 

14 this proposal.

15 Should the EPA approach of CO2 capture, 

16 including partial capture, be considered the best 

17 system of emission reduction? No. CO2 capture 

18 technology has not been deployed at commercial 

19 scale at any power plant anywhere in the world. 

20 Costs should be considered, and the additional 

21 costs associated with CO2 capture are very large, 

22 unacceptable, and would roughly double the cost 

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1 versus a conventional coal plant without CO2 

2 capture.

3 Is Southern Company's Kemper County plant 

4 the best system of emission reduction? No. 

5 Kemper is still under construction, which means 

6 it is not yet adequately demonstrated. Kemper is 

7 a first-of-a-kind gasification technology and 

8 will also use other first-of-a-kind technologies 

9 unique to the gasifier.

10 First-of-a-kind plants do not always 

11 work. For example, the Sierra Pacific Pinon Pine 

12 Integrated Gasification Combined-Cycle plant was 

13 built with DOE funds, but the gasifier failed to 

14 function properly and the project was finally 

15 mothballed. It failed because a large number of 

16 the process blocks were first-of-a-kind. Will 

17 Kemper have similar issues?

18 Kemper is only commercially viable 

19 because of a suite of public subsidies and 

20 financial incentives, including revenues from the 

21 sales of carbon dioxide at the plant for enhanced 

22 oil recovery. The public subsidies are not 

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1 available for new projects, and financial 

2 incentives unique to Kemper will not apply to 

3 other projects in other locations.

4 Will a standard that requires coal plants 

5 to capture CO2 encourage CO2 capture, research, 

6 development, and demonstration and will lead to 

7 reductions in the cost of CO2 capture? No. We 

8 think this proposal will be a setback for CO2 

9 capture, research, development, and 

10 demonstration.

11 In conclusion, CO2 capture is not 

12 commercially viable. With this proposal, the 

13 administration is clearly abandoning its all-of14 the-above energy strategy and embracing an all15 but-one approach that effectively prevents 

16 construction of new coal-based generation.

17 We've seen this all-but-one game before 

18 in our country's recent history. Concerned about 

19 natural gas supplies, Congress passed the ill20 conceived Power Plant and Industrial Fuel Use Act 

21 of 1978, which prohibited burning natural gas to 

22 generate electricity. To meet growing demand for 

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1 base-load power, utilities effectively were 

2 forced to choose either coal or nuclear plants.

3 The cost of constructing nuclear plants 

4 in the late 1970s was skyrocketing. And the 

5 Three Mile Island plant accident -- after that,

6 construction of nuclear plants came to a 

7 standstill, leaving coal as the only base-load 

8 resource.

9 For co-ops, the timing was especially 

10 challenging. The measure was implemented just as 

11 co-ops were in the middle of a major power plant 

12 building cycle, while Congress was prohibiting 

13 one choice of resource to meet growing demand for 

14 electricity. As a result, co-ops invested 

15 heavily in coal-based generating plants in the 

16 late '70s and early '80s.

17 It took nine years, but Congress finally 

18 repealed its mistake in 1987. There is no reason 

19 to repeat the mistakes of the past, but that 

20 appears exactly what we are about to do.

21 Thank you very much.

22 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you.

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1 (Pause.)

2 MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 

3 Ivy Main and Jim Tozzi.

4 MS. MAIN: Thank you. I'm Ivy Main. I'm 

5 a resident of Virginia. I raised two daughters 

6 in the Washington area. Both of them had asthma 

7 in spite of the fact that there's never been a 

8 history of asthma in either of our families. And 

9 the cost of that to us was thousands of dollars 

10 out of pocket, lost school time, visits to the 

11 doctors. And we have great insurance plans.

12 What I take away from that is that the 

13 cost of pollution is far greater than what is 

14 priced into electricity. And it is very easy to 

15 assess what we pay in an electric bill and what 

16 the cost will be to an electricity consumer from 

17 new regulations. It is much harder to assess 

18 what the benefits will be and where the cost 

19 savings will come elsewhere.

20 But they're enormous. We could have paid 

21 five times our electric bill and saved money if 

22 we weren't paying for the cost of asthma. And I 

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1 would have had healthier, happier children.

2 And the same thing is true of carbon. We 

3 know you can judge, basically, what it's going to 

4 cost to comply with carbon regulations in terms 

5 of the cost to the consumer in electricity 

6 prices. But the cost of avoiding climate change 

7 -- I'm not saying it very well. The costs 

8 involved with climate change are catastrophically 

9 higher.

10 So, it's not really fair to say that 

11 carbon regulations are going to drive up costs to 

12 consumers. Because, in fact, the costs that they 

13 will be saving consumers is far more. And the 

14 fact that we have a lot more trouble calculating 

15 it because there are so many unknowns in what 

16 we're facing going down the road in terms of 

17 disease and displaced persons and storm surges --

18 those are unpredictable, but they are very real. 

19 And we will be having to pay those costs if we 

20 don't deal with it.

21 So I really applaud the EPA for taking 

22 action on carbon. It's -- well, people say 

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1 you're putting coal out of business. Nobody's 

2 building a new coal plant now anyway because 

3 natural gas is so cheap. The concern I have and 

4 a lot of people have is that there's a real rush 

5 to natural gas, and that's not going to get us 

6 out of the carbon bind that we're in.

7 If everybody builds new gas plants, we're 

8 still heading down the road to climate change. 

9 So if anything, I think the carbon limits on the 

10 gas plants are more lax than they could be. I 

11 think the newer technology on natural gas 

12 combined-cycle plants is such that they could be 

13 meeting a tighter restriction. 

14 And so I would, if anything, encourage 

15 the EPA to tighten up those regulations because 

16 we're looking at extremely high costs to 

17 consumers from climate change. And a little bit 

18 of pain in the electric bills is far more offset 

19 by the savings that we will face across the board 

20 in the rest of our lives. Thank you.

21 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

22 MR. TOZZI: Members of the panel, members 

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1 of the public, I'm Jim Tozzi, and I'm with the 

2 Center for Regulatory Effectiveness.

3 The issue we have before us today is 

4 somewhat broader than new-source performance 

5 standards. It has to do in part with the 

6 administrative powers of the President. I have a 

7 little background in that, since I spent a good 

8 part of my career working for five presidents, 

9 expanding those authorities that you most 

10 certainly are using today.

11 When I did so, I thought it very useful 

12 to look at my actions in two categories: One 

13 category was something I was asked to do whether 

14 it was discretionary, discretionary meaning 

15 whether I could do it, yes or no. 

16 Nondiscretionary meaning where I really had no 

17 option other than pursue some action.

18 Now, on the action before us, it appears 

19 that EPA has decided that to conduct a Data 

20 Quality Act-structured peer review of the 

21 availability of CCS is a discretionary action, 

22 because if -- the law, in our view, is very clear 

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1 and EPA has failed to do that.

2 Now, I guess you can look at it a lot of 

3 ways for an answer to that. But it is all 

4 summarized, I think, in a tune by a well-known 

5 country-Western singer of years ago. His name 

6 was Waylon Jennings. And the song was "Wrong." 

7 It is actually incorrect to assume that you have 

8 the option not to do a structured Data Quality 

9 Act review, peer review, of the availability of 

10 CCS.

11 And I say this because there's a number 

12 of people we heard today -- I was here from the 

13 inception of this hearing -- that are pro14 greenhouse gas control that raised questions 

15 about that. I think it is incumbent upon ya'll 

16 to do a review under that because it was 

17 sanctioned by OMB and by the NAS as a really 

18 balanced-type peer review.

19 Now, why do I say that? Because there's 

20 a decision in the courts, the D.C. Circuit Court 

21 of Appeals, prime time, that says the guidelines 

22 issued by OMB are binding. It also says included 

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1 in those guidelines are the peer review 

2 guidelines that were issued by OMB, are binding 

3 upon you.

4 So the question is, Was there a peer 

5 review done by the SAB? Yes. Was the peer 

6 review done by the SAB compliant with the Data 

7 Quality Act? No. There is your vulnerability.

8 And what the public missed by having the 

9 type of SAB review you had was several-fold. 

10 Because if it were a structured OMB Data Quality 

11 Act review, the public would have had very 

12 substantial participation in that peer review. 

13 It would have included, you would have issued a 

14 plan to study for public comment, who was going 

15 to participate, how the panels were chosen, and 

16 an interaction by the public.

17 You would have also been mandated to 

18 allow the public to react to the peer review 

19 report. So, that hasn't gone.

20 Now, it is surprising to me that EPA has 

21 not done that Data Quality Act peer review. And 

22 let me give you three reasons: First of all, 

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1 there is no agency in the government that has 

2 done better work on peer review than EPA. Here 

3 is a 190-page document written by EPA that 

4 describes in detail what "peer review" means. 

5 There's no agency in the government that has done 

6 a better job of that.

7 Second, the EPA Inspector General has 

8 raised the identical questions that I have. He's 

9 written a 99-page report on the endangerment 

10 finding where the Inspector General, this Agency 

11 said, for all the reasons I did, you should have 

12 done a Data Quality Act structured report. Not 

13 my words, the Inspector General's report.

14 And third, I'm not here pushing Data 

15 Quality Act compliance on every little issue. 

16 This is the first time I've done this in 14 years 

17 of -- trust me. I was involved, and I know the 

18 Data Quality Act. I think this is an issue of 

19 national importance, a structured review where 

20 the public can participate and know the process 

21 is good for all parties and this.

22 And so my third point is -- can you yield 

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1 me one minute of time, sir? Is that -- I'm going 

2 to say this, is that even environmental groups 

3 raise this concern. The Sierra Club -- not 

4 Sierra Club. The Greenpeace says, "CCS is a 

5 highly speculative, risky, and unlikely 

6 technologically feasible in the next 20 years."

7 So there's views all over this. A good 

8 analysis like that will put it on the record. 

9 And we wrote to you a very long letter, and we 

10 await your response. And you give us a response, 

11 it's either yes or no, you're going to do it. 

12 And we would be available, the staff, the 

13 lawyers, the regulatory analysts, if you have any 

14 data information you want to respond to that 

15 letter. We'd appreciate it. Meantime, we ask 

16 that you keep the public comment period open 

17 until you respond.

18 Sorry for my minute over. Thank you.

19 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you very much.

20 (Pause.)

21 MR. CULLIGAN: And our next two speakers 

22 are Peter Adriance and Jon Gallinger.

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1 MR. ADRIANCE: Good morning. I'm Peter 

2 Adriance, representing the Baha'is of the United 

3 States. I'm pleased to be among several faith 

4 representatives here speaking in support of EPA's 

5 proposed carbon pollution standards for new power 

6 plants. I appreciate EPA's efforts to clean up 

7 our environment through these standards, which 

8 will reduce dangerous emissions. They'll protect 

9 the health and wellbeing of all citizens in the 

10 web of life upon which we all depend.

11 Currently, power plants are responsible 

12 for 40 percent of U.S. national carbon emissions. 

13 And the impacts of these emissions are 

14 increasingly being felt in communities here at 

15 home and around the globe, as we've heard today.

16 From extreme weather events to droughts, 

17 floods, wildfires, the spread of vector-borne 

18 diseases, increased levels of asthma, and more, 

19 there is growing evidence that carbon emissions 

20 are causing chaos and loss of life and property, 

21 often in communities ill-prepared to deal with 

22 the impacts.

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1 Knowing the importance of reducing carbon 

2 emissions, then, why would we allow new power 

3 plants to be built without any restrictions on 

4 the carbon they emit? These standards can help 

5 to discourage investment in infrastructure that 

6 will lock us into dangerous levels of emissions 

7 for decades to come. The new standards will 

8 serve as an incentive to develop clean energy 

9 sources, including renewables.

10 More than purely an environmental issue, 

11 the setting of carbon standards is an issue of 

12 fairness, equity, and justice, as many speaking 

13 here today have testified. President Obama has 

14 stressed the same point himself. In his words, 

15 "We have a moral obligation to future generations 

16 to leave them a planet that's not polluted and 

17 damaged."

18 Now, we in the faith community would, of 

19 course, agree with that. But it's not only 

20 future generations that will bear the impacts of 

21 climate change. They're being felt now most 

22 intensely by those populations around the world 

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1 who are least able to cope with them. We must 

2 act with great conviction and haste to move 

3 toward solutions.

4 The central principle of the Baha'i faith 

5 is the oneness of mankind. This principle has 

6 deep implications for policy in many arenas. It 

7 should guide us to seek solutions that are 

8 equitable and just, treating all people as 

9 members of one human family. EPA's proposed

10 carbon standards for new power plants represent 

11 one way that this principle can be put into 

12 action.

13 I was fortunate last week to attend the 

14 14th National Conference and Global Forum on 

15 Science, Policy, and the Environment. The focus 

16 there was on building climate solutions. The 

17 good news is that solutions are within our reach. 

18 And many are being implemented.

19 Several presenters acknowledged the 

20 social costs and ethical dimensions of the 

21 climate challenge. Renowned climate scientist 

22 Dr. Richard Alley was emphatic about this. He 

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1 referred to the golden rule issue. We must do 

2 unto others as we would have them do unto us. 

3 But right now, our emissions and their impact on 

4 others is taking us in the wrong direction.

5 He said if we take the right steps in 

6 limiting our emissions, we'll bring about a 

7 stronger economy, more jobs, enhanced national 

8 security, and a cleaner environment. We'll also 

9 be more consistent with the golden rule.

10 If we continue with business as usual, 

11 the opposite will result. EPA's proposed carbon 

12 standards for new power plants are an important 

13 addition to the mix of solutions that we so 

14 desperately need.

15 People of faith across the country are 

16 putting their heads and hearts together to 

17 address the climate issue. Later this month, 

18 people of all faiths, including the Baha'is, will 

19 take part in the National Preach-In on Climate 

20 Change, organized by Interfaith Power and Light.

21 In churches, mosques, synagogues, Baha'i 

22 centers around the country, they will be 

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1 discussing climate change from a faith 

2 perspective and taking action to reduce their own 

3 emissions and sending messages to members of 

4 Congress, asking them to do their part in moving 

5 toward a low-carbon energy future.

6 In order to make real progress, we need 

7 national policies to address these dangerous 

8 emissions. And adopting EPA's proposed carbon 

9 standards for new power plants is an important 

10 move in that direction.

11 So my hope is that our generation will be 

12 able to leave the world directed towards a better 

13 future than the one towards which we are headed 

14 currently, a world in which all people will be 

15 able to lead safe, productive, and healthy lives.

16 Thanks, EPA, for your efforts.

17 MR. GALLINGER: Good morning. I'm Jon 

18 Gallinger. It's J-o-n, without the H. 

19 Gallinger, G-a-l-l-i-n-g-e-r. I'm Director of 

20 Government Affairs for Mitsubishi Hitachi Power 

21 Systems America, was formerly known as Mitsubishi 

22 Power Systems. Just a few days ago, on February 

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1 1st, Mitsubishi heavy industries and Hitachi 

2 merged their thermal power generation businesses. 

3 So, hence the new name.

4 The proposed rule will apply to the 

5 technologies which Mitsubishi Hitachi Power 

6 Systems, or Mitsubishi Hitachi, both manufactures 

7 and sells within the U.S. Mitsubishi Hitachi is 

8 providing the world's most efficient combined9 cycle systems. These M501J technologies offer 

10 unsurpassed efficiency of nearly 62 percent at 

11 full load, and over 55 percent at minimum 

12 combined-cycle load, and also provide operational 

13 flexibility for an increasingly complex grid.

14 Today's natural gas combined-cycle 

15 systems offer tremendous benefits, as their 

16 efficiency helps maintain affordable electricity 

17 rates, their flexibility enhances grid stability, 

18 and their fuel source burns cleaner and greatly 

19 reduces environmental impacts compared to other 

20 fossil fuel technologies and conventional 

21 combustion turbine technologies.

22 To meet the demands of an increasingly 

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1 complex grid for renewable generation backing, 

2 the M501GAC-FAST provides remarkable flexibility 

3 with the ability to start up and deliver more 

4 than 250 megawatts of reliable power within only 

5 10 minutes and still maintain efficiencies of 59 

6 percent.

7 In the U.S., Mitsubishi Hitachi has the 

8 largest installed fleet of advanced efficiency, 

9 this is G series or larger, combined cycles, 

10 compared to any other gas turbine manufacturer, 

11 almost two times all the other suppliers 

12 combined.

13 With 45 units installed or sold in North 

14 America alone, Mitsubishi Hitachi has extensive 

15 experience with the latest advanced, highly 

16 efficient combined-cycle systems. Of note, we 

17 recently sold our first J class unit in the 

18 United States, which, when operational in 2017, 

19 is expected to be the most efficient fossil-fuel 

20 plant in the U.S.

21 Mitsubishi Hitachi recognized long ago 

22 the need to develop highly efficient and flexible 

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1 turbine technologies, and we realized the 

2 benefits that these types of products offer to 

3 both the markets and to the environment. As a 

4 result, our technologies, including our time5 tested G series fleet and advanced state-of-the6 art J series technologies, are capable of meeting 

7 this regulation as proposed, with limited 

8 changes.

9 We plan to submit written comments on 

10 which we provide additional detail beyond what I 

11 highlight today. Our comments focus only on the 

12 limits proposed for combustion turbines within a

13 new section of the Quad K requirements or as a 

14 new subpart Quad T requirement. We do not 

15 comment on the proposed limits for coal-fired 

16 units.

17 Moreover, we focus on the limits 

18 established for combustion turbines which burn 

19 greater than 850 million BTU's per hour heat 

20 input.

21 In summary, our position concerning this 

22 rule and recommendations to the EPA are as 

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1 follows: Number one, both mature and recently 

2 commercialized Mitsubishi Hitachi combustion 

3 turbine technologies are capable of meeting the 

4 1,000 pounds CO2 per megawatt hour standard for 

5 combustion turbines firing greater than 850 

6 million BTU's per hour heat input.

7 Even under a wide range of operating and 

8 degradation assumptions, Mitsubishi Hitachi's 

9 turbine technologies are able to meet the 

10 proposed limit.

11 Two, we recommended eliminating the 

12 compliance requirement for the periods of time 

13 when a unit is combusting secondary fuels, such a 

14 fuel oil, but still consume greater than 90 

15 percent natural gas on a three-year rolling 

16 average. Since secondary fuel operation is 

17 inherently inefficient, this compliance 

18 requirement would create the possibility for an 

19 otherwise extremely efficient combustion turbine 

20 to exceed the emissions limit during reliability21 critical events.

22 And finally, we support the exemption for 

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1 units which sell less than one-third of their 

2 potential electric output to the grid. We view 

3 this exemption as favorable, as it reduces the 

4 risks associated for a natural gas combined cycle 

5 designed for base-load or intermediate-load 

6 operations, but future grid conditions require 

7 dispatch in low-peaking mode.

8 So, in closing, we hope our comments and 

9 recommendations are informative and useful as the 

10 Agency seeks to promulgate standards of 

11 performance for greenhouse gas emissions from new 

12 stationary sources.

13 We look forward to working with the EPA 

14 and stakeholders to demonstrate our combustion 

15 combined-cycle technology's ability to provide 

16 efficient, flexible, and environmentally friendly 

17 power resources which enhance grid stability and 

18 promote more affordable electricity rates, while 

19 having minimal impacts on the environment.

20 Thank you again for the opportunity to be 

21 here today.

22 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

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1 (Pause.)

2 MR. CULLIGAN: So, our next two speakers 

3 are Kendyl Crawford and Brierre Louis.

4 So, are you Kendyl?

5 MS. CRAWFORD: Yes. 

6 MR. CULLIGAN: Do we have Brierre Louis? 

7 Sorry for the mispronunciation.

8 MS. CRAWFORD: Hello. My name is Kendyl 

9 Crawford, and I'm a resident of Hampton, 

10 Virginia, which is a part of the Hampton Roads 

11 region. I just want to start off by saying that 

12 my back yard is in a flood zone. My family owns 

13 several properties in the area, and after being 

14 in business for around 45 years, we are noticing 

15 increased threat from recurrent flooding.

16 Not many people know this, but Hampton 

17 Roads is the second-most populated lowest-lying 

18 area vulnerable to sea level rise in the United 

19 States, right after New Orleans. As the water is 

20 predicted to rise, our land is sinking as well.

21 A report from the Virginia Institute of 

22 Marine Science predicts that by 2100, we could 

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1 experience a sea level rise of 5.4 feet. So I 

2 must impress upon you not just the economic, but 

3 also the cultural, social, ethical, and 

4 historical importance of acting immediately and 

5 acting vigorously to adapt to and mitigate the 

6 impacts of climate change.

7 From a young woman who may very soon be 

8 swimming for her life, please enact strict carbon 

9 pollution standards for both new and existing 

10 power plants. Thank you.

11 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

12 MS. BRIERRE: My name is Louise Brierre. 

13 It's a nice French name, comes from my family in 

14 New Orleans. I was impressed with the importance 

15 of clean air and clean water when I visited the 

16 area from Baton Rouge down to New Orleans, the 

17 sort of Cancer Alley. That impressed me because 

18 I was also -- I was born and raised in

19 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

20 I was lucky enough to be born shortly 

21 after they had such a success in cleaning up 

22 Pittsburgh, the Renaissance. They pretty much 

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1 eliminated the vast smog that was there. So I 

2 have sort of a lifelong orientation towards 

3 liking clean air, breathable air, as well as 

4 clean and safe water.

5 You all have an huge job in front of you, 

6 but I want to impress upon you from an historic 

7 standpoint that it's far better to do a good job 

8 at the very beginning of regulating rather than 

9 trying to clean up afterwards. So I'm speaking 

10 here on behalf of myself and future generations 

11 supporting EPA's efforts to control and sort of 

12 prevent an awful lot of pollution.

13 Looking forward to the seventh generation 

14 coming after us. Thank you.

15 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you.

16 We're just going to take a quick five17 minute break. But we'll be back and start with 

18 our next two speakers at that point.

19 (Whereupon, at 11:06 a.m., a brief recess 

20 was taken, to reconvene at 11:14 a.m.)

21 MR. CULLIGAN: All right. We're going to 

22 restart again. And I hope that our next two 

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1 speakers are here. We have Mandy Warner and 

2 Earle Mitchell. So, are either Mandy Warner or 

3 Earle Mitchell here? Earle is here. Okay. 

4 Great.

5 MS. WARNER: Good morning. My name is 

6 Mandy Warner, and I'm with Environmental Defense 

7 Fund, a nonpartisan environmental organization 

8 with more than 750,000 members nationwide. Thank 

9 you for the opportunity to testify today.

10 The proposed carbon pollution standards 

11 for new power plants are an important step 

12 towards addressing the massive quantities of 

13 climate-destabilizing pollution emitted from U.S. 

14 power plants, one of the largest sources of 

15 greenhouse gases in the world. The standards 

16 will finally require new coal-fired plants to 

17 begin addressing their dangerous carbon 

18 pollution.

19 Currently, there are no national limits 

20 at all on the carbon pollution discharged from 

21 power plants. Fortunately, America has a vast 

22 array of solutions to power our businesses and 

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1 homes with lower-emitting sources of energy, 

2 including renewables, micro-grid technologies, 

3 and energy efficiency.

4 The proposed carbon pollution technology 

5 for new coal plants is being deployed around the 

6 world, and here in North America at plants in 

7 Canada, Mississippi, California, and at two 

8 plants in Texas. These vital clean air standards 

9 will provide long overdue and urgently needed 

10 protections for our health and climate while 

11 strengthening our made-in-America clean energy 

12 economy.

13 Climate change presents a clear and 

14 present danger to the U.S. and to the world. The 

15 World Meteorological Organization confirms that 

16 2013 tied for the sixth warmest year on record. 

17 Last year also marked the 37th consecutive year 

18 with the global temperature about the twentieth 

19 century average, and there were seven climate 

20 disasters, each costing more than $1 billion, 

21 including several outbreaks of tornadoes in the 

22 Southwest, Midwest and Plains; devastating floods 

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1 in Colorado; and extreme drought in Western 

2 states. Billion-dollar weather and climate 

3 events alone in the U.S. in 2012 cost more than 

4 $115 billion.

5 The U.S. Global Change Research Program 

6 has determined that if carbon pollution is not 

7 reduced, it is likely that American communities 

8 will experience increasingly severe climate 

9 impacts, including rising levels of dangerous 

10 smog in some of our cities, which will lead to an 

11 increased risk of respiratory infections, more 

12 asthma attacks, and more premature deaths; 

13 increased risk of illness and death due to 

14 extreme heat; more intense hurricanes and storm 

15 surges; and much more.

16 U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel 

17 said in November, quote, "Climate change has not 

18 directly caused conflict, but it can add to the 

19 challenges of global instability, hunger, 

20 poverty, and conflict, food and water shortages, 

21 pandemic disease, disputes over refugees and 

22 resources, more severe natural disasters -- all 

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1 place additional burdens on economies, societies, 

2 and institutions around the world," end quote.

3 Dozens of states across the nation have 

4 policies in place to harness the economic and 

5 environmental benefits of cleaner energy through 

6 renewable energy standards, energy efficiency 

7 standards, even carbon pollution standards, and 

8 more. A number of states have already adopted 

9 limits on the carbon pollution that can be 

10 discharged from new fossil-fuel power plants and 

11 provide a strong foundation for federal 

12 protection.

13 State pollution and clean energy 

14 standards are aligned with market forces, such as 

15 lower-cost natural gas and increased cost 

16 competitiveness of renewables that are already 

17 driving power companies to develop cleaner 

18 technologies.

19 In 2012, wind power topped all other 

20 sources of added generation capacity, accounting 

21 for 43 percent of all new electric generation 

22 additions and $25 billion in U.S. investment. In 

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1 2012, also, rooftop solar panels cost 

2 approximately 1 percent of what they did 35 years 

3 ago.

4 These standards will provide power 

5 companies with regulatory certainty to make 

6 prudent long-term investments in cleaner home7 grown energy that puts Americans to work. We 

8 have heard all familiar claims that some carbon 

9 pollution control technologies are not ready yet. 

10 Similar claims were made and subsequently 

11 disproved about scrubbers and mercury controls.

12 EPA's finding that carbon pollution 

13 controls like CCS are adequately demonstrated for 

14 new coal-fired power plants is based on an 

15 extensive body of technical information.

16 It is also entirely consistent with what 

17 the head of the nation's largest coal-based power 

18 company said just a few years ago. The American 

19 Electric Power's former CEO and President Mike 

20 Morris had this to say about the company's 

21 Mountaineer CCS project in 2011: "We're 

22 encouraged by what we saw. We're clearly 

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1 impressed with what we learn and we feel that we 

2 have demonstrated to a certainty that CCS is in 

3 fact viable technology for the U.S., and quite 

4 honestly, for the rest of the world going 

5 forward."

6 The technology EPA is relying on in 

7 setting these standards is available today, and 

8 the time has come when we can no longer afford to 

9 build new, uncontrolled coal plants that release 

10 vast volumes of carbon pollution for 50 years or 

11 more, recklessly imperiling our health, our 

12 environment, and our prosperity.

13 EPA's proposed limits are essential to 

14 address climate change, to drive innovation and 

15 clean energy solutions, to ensure a steady flow 

16 of cost-effective and cleaner electricity to 

17 power our economy, and to protect the health and 

18 wellbeing of Americans, including the 4 million 

19 Americans who have waited to support these 

20 historic standards.

21 EDF will also be submitting further 

22 technical comments on the proposed rule. Thank 

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1 you again for the opportunity to testify.

2 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

3 MR. MITCHELL: Good morning. My name is 

4 Earle Mitchell, and I live in Springfield, 

5 Virginia. Today you will hear comments from the 

6 coal and natural gas producers, as well as from 

7 power plant operators such as Dominion Resources.

8 Dominion happens to be the largest 

9 polluter of the air in Virginia. These 

10 companies, like the folk tale Chicken Little, 

11 will claim that the sky is falling and the 

12 proposed standards will kill off any new fossil 

13 fuel power plants in the U.S.A. They will claim 

14 that the loss of potential jobs will set the 

15 nation back on its heels.

16 The coal industry provided 750,000 jobs 

17 in this country at its peak. It now provides 

18 100,000. The solar industry provided 119,000 

19 direct jobs in 2012 and is growing at an 

20 accelerated rate of six times faster than the 

21 overall job market. Those last two statistics 

22 are from the U.S. Department of Energy.

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1 Mining in the U.S.A. is seven times more 

2 deadly to its workforce than the average industry 

3 in the country. Two factors that are not 

4 addressed in the proposed standards are the means 

5 by which the fuel is obtained and the residual 

6 disposal after it is burned.

7 Much of the coal in the East is procured 

8 by mountaintop removal. This process strips the 

9 overburden from the coal seams and shoves toxic 

10 chemicals, such as lead, selenium, arsenic, et 

11 cetera, into the streambeds below. Twenty-two 

12 percent of the streams in West Virginia are now 

13 heavily polluted.

14 Here's a statistic I never believed: 

15 Five hundred mountains in Virginia, West 

16 Virginia, and Kentucky have been subjected to 

17 this process. It's been going on for years, but 

18 you don't hear too much about it.

19 A coal ash pond breach at the TVA 

20 resulted in 1 billion gallons of toxic waste 

21 leaking into two rivers. The cleanup continues 

22 at the cost of millions of taxpayer dollars. 

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1 Last month, the spill of a toxic chemical using 

2 the coal cleaning process contaminated the water 

3 supply for 300,000 West Virginians for more than 

4 a week.

5 This week -- this week, mind you -- Duke 

6 Energy experienced a coal ash spill that resulted 

7 in 50,000 tons -- let me repeat, 50,000 tons of 

8 toxic ash into the Dan River. That river flows 

9 into Lake Gaston, which supplies water to the 

10 cities of Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and 

11 Chesapeake.

12 Natural gas has its own problems. The 

13 forcing of chemicals into the ground to penetrate 

14 the shale has resulted in the contamination of 

15 potable water. Earthquakes have occurred in 

16 northern Ohio after fracking. This area has no 

17 history of ever having had an earthquake before. 

18 The fracking process also results in having a 

19 large quantity of methane gas leaking into the 

20 atmosphere. Some European countries have an 

21 outright ban on fracking.

22 The industry does not like to disclose 

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1 the problems with pipelines. San Bruno, 

2 California, had a natural gas pipeline explode, 

3 which killed eight people and destroyed a 

4 neighborhood in 2010. Natural gas transmission 

5 systems in the U.S. cause an average of 17 

6 fatalities and $133 million in damages every 

7 year.

8 The total fatalities for solar and wind 

9 power are zero per year.

10 I ask that when the standard is 

11 evaluated, all concerned look at the total 

12 picture. What are the negative aspects of 

13 burning fossil fuels for energy? And what are 

14 the alternatives? To quote a famous politician, 

15 it's like putting lipstick on a pig. Fossil 

16 fuels are dirty and harmful to the environment. 

17 The standard must be as strict as possible to 

18 protect the health of the American people.

19 You merely have to read the latest report 

20 from the IPCC to realize that we must change our 

21 ways.

22 And I just want to tell you a little 

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1 personal story. There's a lady I know that's in 

2 her early 60s. She's very athletic. She has a 

3 backyard pool. She swims a lot. She swims from 

4 May to about the first of October. I've been 

5 hiking with her, and I have a hard time keeping 

6 up with her.

7 In the summer of 2012, she came down with 

8 a bad illness, and she didn't know what it was. 

9 She laid in bed for a couple of weeks -- well, 

10 maybe a week. Then she went to see her doctor.

11 Now, I live in Fairfax County, okay? One 

12 of the wealthiest counties in the United States, 

13 outstanding medical system. She went to see her 

14 doctor. It took her doctor a month to figure out 

15 what the problem was. She had West Nile virus. 

16 She's never had -- he had never seen West Nile 

17 before. It's moving up from Texas.

18 Folks, we got a problem here. Let's fix 

19 it. Thank you very much.

20 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you.

21 (Pause.)

22 MR. CULLIGAN: Okay. Our next two 

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1 speakers are Leo Cruz and Ronnie Citron-Fink.

2 MR. CRUZ: Good morning. I'm Leo Cruz. 

3 MR. CULLIGAN: Do we have Ronnie Citron4 Frank?

5 (Pause.)

6 MR. CRUZ: Good morning. Thank you for 

7 allowing me the opportunity to testify before you 

8 today on the proposed carbon standards for our 

9 new power plants. My name is Leo Cruz, and I'm a 

10 former naval gunnery officer serving aboard a 

11 destroyer in Operation Iraqi Freedom. I'm here 

12 representing Operation Free, a nationwide 

13 coalition of over 5,000 veterans and national 

14 security experts who advocate for clean energy 

15 and climate security.

16 I joined the military because I cared 

17 deeply about service of country and our national 

18 security. I'm here to testify today because, 

19 along with a consensus of senior military and 

20 national security experts, I believe we face a 

21 serious threat to our national security --

22 climate change.

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1 Severe drought, record heat waves, 

2 extreme storms, food and water shortages, mass 

3 migrations -- these are but a few of the 

4 dangerous effects of climate change. And they 

5 have very real implications for those whose 

6 primary mission it is to protect our national 

7 security.

8 Climate change is widely recognized as a 

9 threat multiplier. With more frequent and severe 

10 weather events, destabilizing some of the most 

11 dangerous regions of the world, exacerbating 

12 existing national security threats and marginal 

13 living standards, and pushing those states with 

14 weak infrastructure and political instability to 

15 near-constant crisis.

16 According to the Department of Defense 

17 Quadrennial Defense Review, the National 

18 Intelligence Estimates and Natural Security 

19 Strategy, this growing threat of global 

20 instability significantly increases the 

21 likelihood of more troops sent into harm's way.

22 Additionally, climate change creates a 

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1 strategic disadvantage for our military and 

2 forces our servicemen and women to divert time 

3 and resources from primary missions.

4 In the 2012 National Threat Assessment, 

5 former Director of National Intelligence, Admiral 

6 Dennis Blair, said, and I quote, "As climate 

7 changes spurs more humanitarian emergency, the 

8 demand may significantly tax U.S. military 

9 transportation and support force structures, 

10 resulting in strained readiness posture and 

11 decreased strategic depth for combat operations," 

12 end quote.

13 In 2013, Admiral Samuel Locklear, the 

14 Combatant Commander for U.S. Pacific Command, was 

15 asked to identify the biggest security challenge 

16 facing his region, in an interview with the 

17 Boston Globe. As Commander of the U.S. Pacific 

18 Command, Admiral Locklear is responsible for a

19 region of that world that contains the existing 

20 high-profile security concerns like North Korea, 

21 China, and Japan. However, his response to the 

22 biggest threat is climate change.

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1 During the last year's Typhoon Haiyan, 

2 more than 14,000 U.S. military personnel were 

3 activated to respond to the crisis. And within 

4 24 hours, marines were on the ground ready to 

5 provide humanitarian assistance and disaster 

6 relief. The United States receives the request 

7 to provide humanitarian relief every two weeks, a 

8 number that is sure to increase as the impacts of 

9 climate change become more acute.

10 Additionally, climate change poses a 

11 threat here at home, putting our military 

12 installations and critical infrastructure at 

13 risk. And we look to our military to serve as 

14 first responders to communities impacted by 

15 extreme weather disasters.

16 For example, a little over a year ago, 

17 14,000 defense civilians and military personnel 

18 were mobilized to support federal, state, and 

19 local authorities responding to Super-storm 

20 Sandy, providing emergency relief, and helping 

21 with search and rescue, restoring electricity, 

22 removing debris, and pumping out tunnels.

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1 The military will always be there to 

2 respond to threats and deliver relief to areas 

3 impacted by climate-related disasters. But we 

4 should take every step, use every possible tool 

5 available to limit the number of these disasters 

6 and mitigate the source. We must take robust 

7 action to combat this growing threat.

8 By imposing limits on power plants, the 

9 largest source of harmful carbon emissions in the 

10 country, we take aggressive steps to mitigate the 

11 impacts of climate change, increase global 

12 security, and strengthen our national security, 

13 sending fewer of our men and women into harm's 

14 way. Thank you.

15 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

16 MS. CITRON-FINK: Good morning. My name 

17 is Ronnie Citron-Fink. I've traveled from New 

18 York to speak as a mom, a teacher, and a 

19 representative of Moms Clean Air Force.

20 I was inspired to testify today because a 

21 special family friend passed away last week, Pete 

22 Seeger. As I joined his family and friends at 

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1 memorials to celebrate his life and legacy, I 

2 heard over and over again about Pete's unwavering 

3 love of protecting the air, the water, and the 

4 land. Pete was known for his passionate concern 

5 for ordinary people, from fighting for social 

6 justice to cleaning up the river that's just a 

7 stone's throw away from my Hudson Valley home.

8 Pete believed change would come when 

9 ordinary people sang out and spoke out. So I'm 

10 here to do that. But I promise not to sing.

11 When asked recently about the most 

12 important issue of our time, Pete said, "The 

13 oceans rising may be the wake-up call to the 

14 whole human race." He hoped in the future that 

15 people from the oil industry were still living so 

16 that they could see what a mistake they made.

17 We have the opportunity to avoid this 

18 mistake right now. We know human activities are 

19 causing the climate crisis. We know carbon 

20 pollution is warming our planet, contributing to 

21 extreme weather events. We know dirty energy, 

22 the pollution from fossil fuels, is the single 

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1 biggest contributing factor to climate change.

2 And we know the biggest, dirtiest energy 

3 source is coal. Not only does carbon-intensive 

4 coal fuel the climate crisis, but pollution from 

5 dirty coal-fired power plants gets into the air 

6 our families breathe. Our youngest children are 

7 most vulnerable because their respiratory systems 

8 are so tiny and they are still developing.

9 Coal is no longer the answer to power our 

10 children's future. To further its use is a big 

11 mistake. This is why we need to assure that no 

12 new coal-fired power plants are built, and 

13 support the EPA's strong carbon pollution 

14 standards.

15 I remember Pete singing to the children 

16 of my son's kindergarten class 20 years ago. 

17 When he was packing up his banjo, my son asked 

18 him how he could learn to play and sing like him. 

19 And Pete told my son, "Help others. Take care of 

20 the planet. And when you sing for what is right, 

21 others will join."

22 It's time for us to sing out against 

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1 anything that pollutes our families' health and 

2 contributes to climate change. Our children and 

3 grandchildren cannot afford this mistake. Thank 

4 you.

5 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

6 (Pause.)

7 MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 

8 Betsy Monseu and Marcia Cleveland.

9 MS. MONSEU: Good morning. My name is 

10 Betsy Monseu, and I'm CEO of the American Coal 

11 Council. The ACC has been in existence for 32 

12 years and represents the collective business 

13 interests of the American coal industry. Our 

14 members include coal suppliers, transportation 

15 companies, terminals, electric utilities, 

16 industrial consumers, and industry support 

17 services providers.

18 They touch every aspect of turning one of 

19 America's most abundant resources into reliable, 

20 affordable electricity. I appreciate the 

21 opportunity to address the detrimental impacts 

22 and lack of benefits for all Americans of EPA's 

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1 proposed greenhouse gas emissions standards for 

2 new fossil plants.

3 EPA is setting the stage for 

4 significantly altering the U.S. energy mix and, 

5 indeed, its energy policy. These standards 

6 effectively take coal off the table as an option 

7 for new electric generation. Implementation of 

8 the rule will reduce American energy diversity 

9 and security, stop the development of cleaner 

10 coal technologies, increase the risk of higher 

11 electricity prices, and result in negligible CO2 

12 emissions changes, as the EPA has concluded.

13 With about 28 percent of global coal 

14 reserves here in the U.S., coal has historically 

15 been our lowest-cost, most abundant, and most 

16 reliable energy source. It's responsible today 

17 for about 40 percent of U.S. electric generation. 

18 It provides good American jobs, over 800,000 

19 direct and indirect jobs.

20 Its economic importance is illustrated by 

21 examples from the National Association of 

22 Manufacturers. In Indiana, manufacturing is 

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1 responsible for 28.2 percent of the state's 

2 economy, and that's the highest share in the 

3 nation. Eight-one percent of Indiana's 

4 electricity is generated from coal. In Ohio, 

5 Ohio is third in the nation in manufacturing, 

6 employment, and fifth in energy consumption by 

7 the industrial sector. Seventy-two percent of 

8 Ohio's electricity is generated from coal.

9 For American families, the shift away 

10 from coal is equally concerning. A long 

11 recession already caused great hardship. The 

12 cost of energy as a percentage of pre-tax income 

13 in the last decade has nearly doubled for the 

14 middle class. Six in ten Americans say a $20-

15 per-month increase in utility bills would create 

16 hardship. One in three Americans qualifies for 

17 energy assistance. Affordable electricity is 

18 vital, and a diverse energy mix underpins that.

19 EPA asserts that the economic impact of 

20 the proposed standards is insignificant because 

21 utilities are building natural gas plants instead 

22 of coal, due to low natural gas prices. However, 

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1 another factor in those utility decisions is

2 EPA's burdensome regulations.

3 As to natural gas, EPA apparently assumes 

4 it will remain a low-cost fuel in perpetuity. 

5 However, consider the example of just this 

6 winter, as periods of colder weather pressured 

7 natural gas prices to over $5 per million BTU. 

8 This is at least 150 percent higher than the 

9 price of gas in the spring of 2012.

10 There has also been some limitation of 

11 pipeline gas capacity and gas availability. 

12 Since gas can't be stored in inventory at power 

13 plants, as coal can, the effect of a supply 

14 disruption is immediate. In a future without 

15 coal, these natural gas dynamics take on even 

16 greater urgency than today.

17 Purposefully moving away from energy 

18 diversity is an irresponsible policy choice for 

19 America. Consider also that such a policy choice 

20 will not meaningfully impact global GHG 

21 emissions. U.S. coal plants currently account 

22 for only about 4 percent of such emissions. U.S. 

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1 coal demand is only about 12 percent of total 

2 global coal consumption, whereas Asia is 70 

3 percent.

4 EIA estimates global coal use will rise 

5 about 40 percent by 2035. Low-cost abundant coal 

6 will continue to be used as a path to reach the 

7 1.5 billion people today, globally, who have no 

8 electricity access.

9 The ACC's concerns about EPA's GHG rule 

10 include the requirement for CCS's best system of 

11 emissions reduction. The lack of any commercial12 scale power-sector coal plants with operational 

13 CCS today indicates the technology is not 

14 adequately demonstrated or achievable. 

15 Regulation must not get ahead of technology. 

16 That would be a departure from past practice and 

17 would set a bad precedent.

18 EPA has historically based its NSPS 

19 fossil standards on adequately demonstrated 

20 technologies at numerous units fueled by a 

21 variety of coals under varying operating 

22 conditions. For SER technology for NOx emissions 

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1 control, for example, EPA first identified at 

2 least 212 such SER installations.

3 EPA's presumption that the rule drives 

4 technology and that costs will decrease over time 

5 does not hold up, since the rule dramatically 

6 tilts the playing field away from new coal. 

7 Utilities are pushed to make other decisions for 

8 generating capacity, given the costs and 

9 constraints of CCS.

10 Without ongoing, meaningful government 

11 support for CCS to propel development beyond 

12 first-generation technologies, and a reasonable

13 time frame to achieve that, there are too many 

14 obstacles and too much uncertainty for private 

15 developers to move forward. DOE programs for 

16 federal investments in technologies to reduce 

17 emissions have played an essential role for 

18 decades, and that should continue for carbon.

19 Public and private investments to develop 

20 mature technologies should be encouraged. The 

21 EPA rule will do the opposite. Moving away from 

22 coal unnecessarily risks jobs, as well as energy 

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1 reliability, affordability, security, and 

2 diversity, for virtually no identified benefits.

3 To those who proclaim it is a moral 

4 imperative to address climate change, we ask: 

5 Where is the moral imperative to provide 

6 reliable, affordable energy and good jobs in 

7 America? Thank you.

8 MS. CLEVELAND: Hello. Thank you for the 

9 opportunity to address this panel. My name is 

10 Marcia Cleveland, and I represent two faith 

11 groups, Interfaith Moral Action on Climate, and 

12 Greater Washington Interfaith Power and Light. 

13 Both groups believe that climate change is a 

14 profoundly spiritual and moral issue and that we 

15 are all called by our faith to care for creation 

16 and those who are suffering because of carbon 

17 pollution.

18 I've been an environmental lawyer for 40 

19 years. And for most of that time, I have been 

20 trying to decrease emissions from coal plants. 

21 Most of the coal plants that I was suing in the 

22 1980s are still operating, and some of them are 

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1 older than I am, which is saying something.

2 I want to outlive these old plants. I 

3 want to win this fight in my lifetime. I want to 

4 see those old plants close. But I'm not here to 

5 talk primarily about the old plants. I'm here to 

6 talk about standards for new plants.

7 From my point of view, coal and coal8 fired electric generating units have been getting 

9 a pass under the Clean Air Act since it was first 

10 enacted. And these new standards are no 

11 exception. Coal has a limit in terms of the 

12 number of pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour emitted 

13 that is higher than that of natural gas.

14 I ask you, Why? How is that morally 

15 justified? Coal gets the benefit of a variety of 

16 averaging mechanisms, which have the effect of 

17 decreasing its compliance burden when compared to 

18 natural gas. Again I ask, What is the moral 

19 justification for that? Indeed, what is the 

20 moral justification for any new coal-fired power 

21 plants?

22 There's nothing in the Clean Air Act that 

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1 requires EPA to perpetuate any particular 

2 technology if that technology is not good for the 

3 environment and for people of this country. I 

4 agree coal has been a very large part of our 

5 history. And I'm here to say that we must change 

6 that history. All history has to move on. Old 

7 historical technologies need to be replaced by 

8 better, cleaner technologies.

9 There's a growing body of literature that 

10 demonstrates that renewable energy really can 

11 meet our needs for electric generation. In 

12 particular, I'm thinking of some studies done in 

13 Stanford of what it would take the State of New 

14 York to go to an all-renewable system. And in 

15 that study, they showed that the payback period 

16 for the capital investment would be relatively 

17 short because of the benefits, primarily to 

18 health, of going completely away from fossil 

19 fuels.

20 So now, I would like to ask everyone in 

21 this room to imagine what our society would be 

22 like if we left the old energy system behind, the 

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1 old energy system where you burn something to 

2 generate electricity. And we changed to the new 

3 renewable energy system in which the fuel is 

4 free, nonpolluting, and unlimited. That new 

5 world would be a cleaner world. It would be a 

6 healthier world. And it would be a more just 

7 world.

8 We all know that the people who live near 

9 the dirtiest plants tend to have a skin tone 

10 considerably darker than mine, and they probably 

11 have an income considerably less than mine. Any 

12 movement away from fossil fuels is movement 

13 toward justice.

14 A renewable energy system is inherently 

15 more stable. I live, I have a house on an island 

16 in Maine. And our community has a rural electric 

17 co-op. We voted, by 384 to 5, to build three 

18 wind turbines that now produce all of our 

19 electricity. The primary drive behind that move 

20 came from small businesses, because they were 

21 being whipsawed by fluctuating electricity 

22 prices.

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1 Any electric system that depends on 

2 purchasing fuel is ultimately subject to 

3 fluctuation in world markets. So we built wind 

4 turbines for stability, and our electric prices 

5 are about the same. And when we pay off the wind 

6 turbines, they will be a lot less.

7 This is something we could do for the 

8 whole world. And it would be cleaner and more 

9 just world.

10 So, from a moral point of view, from an 

11 ethical point of view, I have difficulty 

12 understanding how you can justify any standard 

13 for carbon pollution from a new source other than 

14 zero. And I urge you to seriously consider 

15 setting a zero standard. Thank you very much.

16 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. Thank both of 

17 you.

18 (Pause.)

19 MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 

20 Danny Herrin and Jessica Halperin.

21 (Pause.)

22 MR. HERRIN: Good morning. I am Danny 

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1 Herrin, Environmental Affairs Director at 

2 Southern Company. Southern Company is an 

3 industry leader in carbon capture utilization and 

4 storage, or CCUS. No other electric utility is 

5 doing more around CCUS than Southern Company, and 

6 it is evidenced by our construction of 

7 Mississippi Power's Kemper County energy 

8 facility, which upon completion will be the first 

9 large-scale integrated integration of CCUS on a 

10 power plant in the U.S.

11 We also have a 25-megawatt slipstream 

12 demonstration project at Plant Barry in Mobile, 

13 Alabama, which has captured and injecting over 

14 100,000 of carbon dioxide. Additionally, we 

15 operate DOE's world-class National Carbon Caption 

16 Center in Wilsonville, Alabama, which hosts 

17 technologies of all kinds to further the research 

18 and capability of carbon capture.

19 Because of our industry-leading research 

20 and demonstration project, Southern Company is 

21 uniquely qualified to comment on this rule.

22 Today I'd like to make three main points 

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1 on the recently proposed greenhouse gas standards 

2 for new fossil fuel power plants.

3 First, the Clean Air Act states that new4 source performance standards must be based on 

5 adequately demonstrated technologies. The EPA 

6 justifies stringent new coal-fired power plant 

7 standards by referencing four facilities that are 

8 planning to implement CCUS. None of these 

9 facilities, including the Kemper County energy 

10 facility, are currently commercially operating. 

11 And further, two of the projects are not yet 

12 under construction.

13 Clearly, the referenced facilities have 

14 not adequately demonstrated CCUS, and the re15 proposed standards should not rely on them.

16 Furthermore, the Kemper County energy 

17 facility is a first-of-its-kind DOE-funded 

18 project that will demonstrate transport19 integrated gasification, or TRIG, technology and 

20 the integration of advanced syngas cleanup. In 

21 developing the technology, Southern Company and 

22 DOE have agreed to jointly evaluate the facility 

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1 for a four-and-a-half-year period after it begins 

2 operations.

3 While the Kemper County energy facility 

4 marks a significant technological milestone, it 

5 is only a first step in the integration of one 

6 type of carbon-capture technology with a specific 

7 generation technology. Experiences gained from 

8 the Kemper County energy facility, as well as 

9 from many more fully integrated applications of 

10 CCUS on full-scale power plants, are needed 

11 before the technology can be considered 

12 adequately demonstrated.

13 In addition, the location of the Kemper 

14 County energy facility, which is close to its 

15 fuel source and existing CO2 pipelines, makes the 

16 facility the right choice for Mississippi and 

17 other parts of the country that share these 

18 common characteristics. However, due to its many 

19 site-specific characteristics, the Kemper County 

20 energy facility cannot be consistently replicated 

21 on a national level and should not be used in 

22 developing a national standard for greenhouse 

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1 gases.

2 Second, the EPA's proposed standard for 

3 natural gas combined-cycle units are too 

4 stringent. The EPA must set the standard at a 

5 rate that allows these units to operate across a 

6 range of power generation modes.

7 Historically, operations of natural gas 

8 combined cycles, as analyzed by EPA, may not be 

9 indicative of future operations.

10 From experience operating our own 

11 combined-cycle fleet, we know that many ever12 changing demands -- that many different modes of 

13 operation are needed to respond to the 

14 instantaneous and ever-changing demands of the 

15 electric grid, which could require combined cycle 

16 units to operate above the proposed standard for 

17 prolonged periods of time, hindering the 

18 operational flexibility of combined cycles that 

19 impact costs, system reliability and increase the 

20 risk of operating.

21 EPA must address these critical concerns 

22 by increasing the proposed standards for natural 

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1 gas combined cycles.

2 Lastly, EPA's proposed requirement on 

3 coal and natural gas units are inconsistent with 

4 the Clean Air Act requirements for developing 

5 new-source performance standards. The current 

6 path would eliminate fuel diversity for new power 

7 plants in many areas and dangerously constrain 

8 the energy resources of our nation.

9 However, if EPA should move forward, 

10 there are a few aspects of the current proposal 

11 that should be retained. For example, Southern 

12 Company believes it is appropriate to separate 

13 standards for coal and combined-cycle units into 

14 subparts Da and Quad K and to develop standards 

15 based on gross emission rates.

16 Southern Company also believes modified 

17 and reconstructed units must continue to be 

18 excluded from this rulemaking. Southern Company 

19 appreciates the opportunity to engage with EPA on 

20 this extremely important rulemaking. Thank you.

21 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

22 MS. HALPERIN: Hi. My name is Jessica 

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1 Halperin, and I'm the environmental justice staff 

2 person for the Unitarian Universalists 

3 Association. And I'm here to provide another 

4 faith-based perspective in support of the 

5 proposed rule.

6 We appreciate the opportunity to comment 

7 today, and we're grateful for the collaborative 

8 work that the EPA has already done to ensure that 

9 these carbon emissions standards are as flexible 

10 as possible, while protecting public health, our 

11 common natural resources, and our common home.

12 Unitarian Universalists know that the 

13 destiny of the earth is our own, and we recognize 

14 the intrinsic value of all life and envision a 

15 world in which every person is assured a secure 

16 and meaningful life that is ecologically 

17 responsible and sustainable.

18 Our world is calling us together in 

19 community in response to climate change from our 

20 moral and spiritual wealth, and Unitarian 

21 Universalists have been heeding this call for 

22 more than 50 years. As a non-creedal tradition, 

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1 we know that there is no need for a gap between 

2 science and faith. The scientific reality is 

3 that action is needed immediately to prevent the 

4 worst impacts of climate change. And Unitarian 

5 Universalists acknowledge, with gratitude, that 

6 the mysteries of the universe, which some might 

7 call God, are larger than we'll ever be able to 

8 comprehend.

9 Working to understand our universe, 

10 though, brings us close to these mysteries and 

11 allows us to celebrate and safeguard our place in 

12 the web of life. Many opponents of action on 

13 industrial carbon pollution ignore or deny the 

14 science that tells us it's time to act. It takes 

15 faith to put our future beyond the profits of 

16 today, to put the needs of already marginalized 

17 communities before the desires of people already 

18 at the top of political and corporate power 

19 structures.

20 And so, there is a strong showing by the 

21 faith community in this hearing today, as there 

22 has been for a long time and as there will be for 

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1 as long as it takes.

2 Unitarian Universalist congregations are 

3 models of energy stewardship. Approximately a

4 quarter of our congregations across the country 

5 have taken enormous steps to reduce their 

6 footprint and green their sanctuaries.

7 A significant majority of our 

8 congregations find ways to work for environmental 

9 justice in their communities, but our actions 

10 alone will not be enough, as carbon plants are 

11 responsible for about 40 percent of carbon 

12 pollution in the United States, which is why 

13 several Unitarian Universalists are testifying at 

14 this hearing today. We can't do this alone.

15 And we do this work through the framework 

16 of environmental justice, which means that we 

17 stand with historically marginalized and low18 income communities. We seek to understand the 

19 perspectives of, and ally with, people who are 

20 trying to survive environmental racism.

21 The ill effects of climate change are so 

22 often focused on neighborhoods and communities 

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1 which lack the resources to escape these effects. 

2 The costs of our inaction on these communities 

3 and many others have already been great: 

4 worsened air quality, which means more asthma 

5 attacks among children; increased transmission of 

6 infectious diseases from insects, food, and 

7 water; increased impacts from extreme weather 

8 like Hurricane Katrina.

9 Unitarian Universalists and we believe 

10 the EPA and the U.S. Government are called to

11 stand against these gross inequalities of race 

12 and income. We know that the dichotomy which so 

13 many draw between economic prosperity and 

14 environmental justice is a false one. Green15 collar jobs and a green economy must be our 

16 future. And it's not only possible, but it's 

17 necessary.

18 So, as we seek justice for the earth and 

19 for our neighbors, as we grow closer to the 

20 mystery of God through understanding the 

21 scientific basis of life on earth and the messy 

22 effects of that life, the EPA has a partner in 

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1 the Unitarian Universalists Association and our 

2 member congregations.

3 We must all take a place in our line of 

4 generations which inhabit the earth and the line 

5 of people who will look up and say, "We have done 

6 what is right." Thank you.

7 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you.

8 Before you leave, Danny, you were talking 

9 about combined-cycle units not being able to meet 

10 the 1,000 standard. Are you guys in your 

11 comments going to provide data helping us 

12 understand what the circumstances are?

13 MR. HERRIN: Yes, we will.

14 MR. CULLIGAN: Okay. Thanks.

15 (Pause.)

16 MR. CULLIGAN: All right. Our last two 

17 speakers for the morning are Matt Walker and Dr. 

18 Jalonne White-Newsome.

19 And before you two start speaking, just a 

20 reminder for everyone in the audience, and our 

21 speakers, too, if any of you are planning on 

22 leaving the building and getting lunch during the 

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1 break and coming back, make sure you keep the 

2 security pass when you came in the building so 

3 they will easily let you back in.

4 MR. WALKER: Good morning. My name is 

5 Matt Walker, and I'm the Outreach Director for 

6 Clean Air Council. Clean Air Council is a 

7 nonprofit environmental organization 

8 headquartered in Philadelphia, PA. The council 

9 has members throughout Pennsylvania, New Jersey, 

10 and Delaware.

11 For more than 40 years, the council has 

12 fought to improve air quality across the region. 

13 The council's mission is to protect everyone's 

14 right to breathe clean air. On behalf of the 

15 council and its members, I thank you for this 

16 opportunity to testify today.

17 The council applauds EPA for moving 

18 forward with this rule, which is a necessary step 

19 in addressing the serious threat to public health 

20 posed by climate change. As the council spelled 

21 out in detail in previous written comments to 

22 EPA, we believe, contrary to arguments advanced 

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1 by some in the fossil-fuel industry, that EPA 

2 does indeed have the authority to regulate carbon 

3 emissions under Section 111 of the Clean Air Act.

4 We are fully supportive of EPA's proposal 

5 to put clear and direct emissions limitations on 

6 new fossil-fuel-burning power plants. That being 

7 said, we hope you will consider the following 

8 comments when drafting the final rule:

9 First, the rule as currently proposed 

10 does not ask for enough in terms of CO2 emission 

11 reductions from natural gas plants. It limits 

12 CO2 emissions from natural gas plants to 1,000 or 

13 1,100 pounds per megawatt hour, depending on 

14 their size.

15 Given the natural-gas-fired generation in 

16 the U.S. average is 1,135 pounds of CO2 per 

17 megawatt hour, this 1,000-pound limit does not 

18 represent any significant pressure on natural gas 

19 producers to reduce their emissions. If plants 

20 are in fact required to reduce emissions at all, 

21 the required reduction will be insignificant in 

22 comparison to the reduction being required of 

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1 coal plants.

2 Under the proposed rule, coal-fired power 

3 plants will be required to reduce their carbon 

4 dioxide emissions by more than 1,000 pounds per 

5 megawatt hour, according to EPA estimations. The 

6 result of such a rule will be to make our energy 

7 grids increasingly dependent on natural gas, as 

8 compared to coal, or more critically, to 

9 renewable energy.

10 This is not an effective long-term 

11 solution to the problem of climate change that 

12 EPA is explicitly seeking to address in 

13 developing these new carbon rules. The bottom 

14 line is that natural gas is a fossil fuel. And 

15 it generates significant emissions of greenhouse 

16 gases, including CO2, at every stage of its life 

17 cycle.

18 We're particularly concerned about this 

19 in Pennsylvania, where we sit on top of a large 

20 portion of the Marcellus shell deposit. We urge 

21 EPA to develop a rule that holds the natural gas 

22 industry to a higher standard, and in doing so, 

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1 promotes a shift to renewable energy sources and 

2 the development of effective energy efficiency 

3 programs, rather than continued reliance on 

4 another polluting fossil fuel.

5 There's another reason why holding 

6 natural gas plants to a more stringent standard 

7 makes a lot of sense. Extracting, processing, 

8 transporting, and ultimately burning natural gas 

9 all represent -- result in a high level of 

10 emissions, not just of carbon dioxide, but also 

11 of methane. Methane is a primary component of 

12 natural gas and also a highly potent greenhouse 

13 gas.

14 According to the Intergovernmental Panel 

15 on Climate Change, methane is at least 72 times 

16 more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide 

17 over a 20-year time period. A paper published in 

18 the Proceedings of the National Academy of 

19 Sciences, and authored by scientists from leading 

20 institutions around the world, recently found 

21 that the rate of methane leakage from natural gas 

22 production, which EPA recently estimated at 1.5 

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1 percent, is in fact 3 percent or higher.

2 Studies of leakage in specific locations 

3 over shorter periods of time found leakage rates 

4 of 4 percent in Denver, 6 to 12 percent in Utah, 

5 17 percent in the LA Basin. These levels of 

6 leakage are high enough to contribute 

7 significantly to climate change and to wipe out 

8 any benefits gained by switching from coal to 

9 natural gas.

10 The council urges EPA to adopt a more 

11 stringent standard for natural gas plants that 

12 requires meaningful reductions in CO2 emissions 

13 from the natural gas industry as well, and avoids 

14 simply replacing coal with another highly 

15 problematic fossil fuel.

16 The council also asks EPA to move quickly 

17 to also set new standards for methane emissions 

18 from gas-fired power plants, using Section 111D 

19 of the Clean Air Act.

20 In addition, EPA should reevaluate the 

21 emissions limits for both natural gas and coal 

22 plants on a regular basis, and make them 

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1 increasingly stringent over time. This is the 

2 best way to ensure that the fossil fuel industry 

3 is consistently incentivized to develop and 

4 incorporate new technologies that allow burning 

5 of fossil fuels with fewer carbon emissions.

6 The Clean Air Act requires that a 

7 standard of performance for both new and existing 

8 sources reflect the best system of emissions 

9 reductions, which the administrator determines 

10 has been adequately demonstrated. This provision 

11 has been interpreted by the D.C. Circuit as being 

12 technology forcing, as looking toward what may 

13 fairly be projected for the regulated future, 

14 rather than being based on the present state of 

15 technology.

16 EPA therefore has both authority and an 

17 obligation to develop a rule that imposes 

18 increasingly stringent standards over time and 

19 encourages industry to develop better 

20 technologies in order to meet those standards. 

21 This rule is a laudable step toward reducing U.S. 

22 carbon emissions and addressing the increasingly 

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1 critical climate change crisis.

2 We have passed 400 parts per million 

3 carbon dioxide in our atmosphere, and we cannot 

4 simply afford to wait any longer to take action. 

5 The Clean Air Council urges EPA to promulgate a 

6 rule that requires natural gas plants make 

7 meaningful reductions in their emissions and that 

8 incentivize all fossil-fuel-burning plants to 

9 develop and incorporate increasingly better 

10 technologies. Thanks for your time.

11 MS. WHITE-NEWSOME: Greetings, and thank 

12 you for the opportunity to be here today and 

13 share some comments on the proposed rule for 

14 regulating greenhouse gases form new sources. My 

15 name is Dr. Jalonne White-Newsome, and I 

16 currently work as the Federal Policy Analyst for 

17 WE ACT for Environmental Justice, a 25-year-old 

18 community-based environmental justice 

19 organization.

20 We're headquartered in Harlem, New York, 

21 but I work out of our D.C. office, with the 

22 majority of my work working on federal policies, 

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1 specifically air and climate-change issues.

2 Our mission has always been to make sure 

3 that communities of color and those that are low 

4 income have a voice in policies and programs that 

5 could disproportionately impact their health.

6 First and foremost, thank you for the 

7 EPA, the Office of Air and Radiation, for the 

8 work that you do and have done. I firmly believe 

9 that breathing clean air is a human right, a 

10 civil right, and one that should be afforded to 

11 all regardless of your zip code, the color of 

12 your skin, or the amount of wages shown on your 

13 W-2.

14 In fact, five days from now, on February 

15 11th, we will be acknowledging the 20th 

16 anniversary of the Executive Order on 

17 Environmental Justice. And I guess just 

18 yesterday, the EPA Administrator announced that

19 February 2014 will be, I guess, regarded as 

20 Environmental Justice Month.

21 So, the purpose of this executive order, 

22 again, was to make sure that federal agencies 

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1 make EJ a part of their mission by making sure 

2 that their programs, policies, and activities do 

3 not cause disproportionately high or adverse 

4 health or environmental effects on low-income 

5 communities of color. So, while this order 20 

6 years ago was a step in the right direction, I 

7 believe we still have some things to do.

8 Consequently, I want to share with you 

9 some general thoughts, not really technical, but 

10 as you move forward with the task of revising and 

11 addressing the comments to the rules for new 

12 future power plants, there's two areas that I 

13 want you to think about.

14 The first are false solutions to the 

15 mitigation of carbon that would cause more harm 

16 to EJ communities. And the second is the 

17 importance of a cumulative impact strategy to 

18 address coal pollutants.

19 So, WE ACT and 33 members of our National 

20 Coalition on Environmental Justice consider clean 

21 coal technologies, like carbon capture and 

22 sequestration, to be unproven, expensive, and 

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1 energy-intensive technology. We are concerned 

2 that the disproportionate siting of these types 

3 of plants will occur in our neighborhoods and in 

4 our communities and add even more local toxins to 

5 the already-polluted air. Another concern is the 

6 potential for the leaks of these capture 

7 facilities and the contamination of groundwater 

8 sources.

9 We would rather the Agency's time and 

10 resources not be spent on proving out this 

11 technology, but on making renewables and energy12 efficiency measures a dominant part of the 

13 solution.

14 Secondly, the EPA needs to seriously 

15 consider including not only the environmental 

16 justice guidance documents as a part of this 

17 rule, but the guidance you have developed around 

18 cumulative risk assessment.

19 Forcing these two guidances to be a part 

20 of the states' implementation portfolio would 

21 encourage key state-level decision-makers to 

22 consider not only carbon, but the multiple 

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1 pollution sources that are already present in 

2 many of our communities like Harlem, New York, 

3 where WE ACT is based, and many others that are 

4 already experiencing extreme health disparities, 

5 as well as concerns for climate change.

6 The use of EJ screening tools, as well as 

7 health impact assessments and other EJ-scoring 

8 methods, could provide important information to 

9 guide these decisions and what you determine to 

10 be the thresholds of emissions.

11 So, in summary, we all know that power 

12 plants are one of the largest sources of carbon 

13 pollution in the country. We also know that 

14 there are children, seniors, the poor, other 

15 vulnerable populations, those living in coastal 

16 communities, and those in our urban centers that 

17 are already feeling the impacts of climate change 

18 more acutely because of carbon pollution.

19 It is therefore important that the EPA 

20 and all of the federal agencies present solutions 

21 to curb carbon pollution and not cause more harm 

22 to communities of color.

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1 So, please consider the ramifications of 

2 the strategies that you suggest, such as CCS. 

3 Consider the collective effects of pollution in 

4 environmental justice communities. And most 

5 importantly, make sure that the EPA is 

6 meaningfully engaging with environmental justice 

7 advocates across the country to fulfill the 

8 spirit and the intentions of the executive order.

9 We don't want to go really look back 20 

10 years from now and regret that, you know, not 

11 really considering all the pieces to this 

12 pollution puzzle. So, thank you for your time 

13 and your consideration.

14 MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you.

15 And we will now take a break till one 

16 o'clock.

17 (Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., a luncheon 

18 recess was taken, to reconvene at 1:02 p.m.

19

20

21

22

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1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 1:02 p.m.

3 MR. HAEUBER: Shall we? Good afternoon, 

4 and thank you for attending this public hearing. 

5 My name is Rick Haeuber, and I'm Chief of the 

6 Assessment and Communications Branch in EPA's 

7 Clean Air Markets Division. I will be chairing 

8 this afternoon's hearing session.

9 Joining me on the panel are Nick Hutson, 

10 with the Sector Policy and Programs Division, and 

11 Ellen Kurlansky, with the Office of Policy 

12 Analysis and Review.

13 We're here today to listen to your 

14 comments on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

15 standard for new power plants. EPA published the 

16 proposed standards in the Federal Register on 

17 January 8th, 2014. This commonsense step under 

18 the Clean Air Act would, for the first time, set 

19 national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 

20 power plants built in the future can emit.

21 EPA is proposing to set an emissions 

22 standard of 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide, or 

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1 CO2, per megawatt hour on a gross-output basis 

2 for new fossil-fuel-fired utility boilers and for 

3 integrated gasification combined-cycle units. 

4 The EPA is also proposing standards for natural5 gas-fired combustion turbines. 

6 Those proposed standards are 1,000 pounds 

7 of CO2 per megawatt hour for large combustion8 turbine units, and 1,100 pounds of CO2 per 

9 megawatt hour for small combustion-turbine units.

10 The Agency's proposal was not applied to 

11 existing units. The EPA's proposed standard 

12 reflects the ongoing trend in the power sector to 

13 build cleaner lower-emitting power plants. The 

14 proposal is flexible and would help minimize 

15 carbon pollution through the deployment of the 

16 same types of modern technologies that power 

17 companies are already using to build the next 

18 generation of power plants. EPA's proposal will 

19 ensure that this progress toward a cleaner, 

20 safer, and more modern power sector continues.

21 Today, we will be accepting oral comments 

22 on all aspects of our proposal, and we will 

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1 prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 

2 transcript will be available as part of the 

3 official record for this rule, and will be placed 

4 in the regulatory docket. We are also accepting 

5 written comments on the proposed rule until March 

6 10th, 2014.

7 At the registration area, which is 

8 located in the lobby outside of this room, there 

9 are handouts with detailed information outlining 

10 how to submit written comments by mail, fax, or 

11 electronically. EPA will consider your comments 

12 as we move forward to complete a final rule. 

13 Written statements and supporting information 

14 submitted during the comment period will be 

15 considered with the same weight as any oral 

16 comments and supporting information presented at 

17 today's hearing.

18 Now let me describe the logistics for 

19 today's hearing. I will call the scheduled 

20 speakers to the table in pairs. When it is your 

21 turn to speak, please state your name and your 

22 affiliation before you begin your testimony. It 

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1 would help our Court Reporter if you would also 

2 spell out your name before you start.

3 In order to be fair to everyone, we will 

4 limit your testimony to five minutes each and ask 

5 that everyone remains at the table until both 

6 speakers in a pair have finished. After you have 

7 finished your testimony, members of the panel may 

8 ask clarifying questions. If you would like to 

9 provide us a copy of your testimony, you can give 

10 a copy to the registration desk out in the lobby, 

11 or we recommend that you follow the procedures 

12 that I outlined before with regard to submitting 

13 documents to the regulatory docket.

14 We have a timekeeping system consisting 

15 of green, yellow, and red lights to help you keep 

16 track of your five minutes to speak. When you 

17 begin speaking, the green light will come on. 

18 The yellow light will signal that you have one 

19 minute left to speak. When the red light comes 

20 on, five minutes has passed and I will ask that 

21 you please complete your testimony.

22 Today's hearing is scheduled from 9:00 

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1 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., or rather will continue to 

2 8:00 p.m., or later if necessary, depending on 

3 the number of speakers. We will be taking a 

4 dinner break from 5:00 to 6:00 p.m.

5 For those who have already registered to 

6 speak, we have tried to accommodate your requests 

7 for specific time slots. We ask for your 

8 patience as we proceed through the list of 

9 speakers. We may need to make some adjustments 

10 as the day progresses.

11 If any questions arise throughout the 

12 day, please see a staff member at the 

13 registration table for assistance.

14 Thank you all for participating today,

15 and let's get started. 

16 So, the first couple of speakers I'd like 

17 to call forward are Shaun Dakin -- hopefully, 

18 I've gotten your name correctly pronounced -- and 

19 Natalie Pien.

20 Mr. Dakin?

21 MR. DAKIN: Okay. Hi. Good afternoon. 

22 I'm Shaun Dakin, and I live in Falls Church, 

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1 Virginia, and I'm speaking today as a 

2 representative of Moms Clean Air Force, and a 

3 dad. My son is nine years old.

4 I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak 

5 with you today in support of the EPA's proposed 

6 carbon standards for new power plants. Moms 

7 Clean Air Force is a community of moms and dads 

8 who are united by concern over the effects of air 

9 pollution and climate change on our children's 

10 health.

11 We read the health research on air 

12 pollution, and we've learned a lot about the 

13 health effects of breathing dirty air. We know 

14 that in its many forms, air pollution has been 

15 linked to major health problems of our time. We 

16 see that asthma attacks, heart attacks, heart 

17 disease, stroke, lung cancer, premature death,

18 emergency room visits, hospital admissions, all 

19 of these health problems have been linked to air 

20 pollution. Many of these problems harm our 

21 children in particular.

22 And we at Moms Clean Air Force think that 

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1 that's unacceptable. Moms Clean Air Force has 

2 over 200,000 moms, dads, grandparents, and 

3 concerned citizens that are working for a clean 

4 air future for all of us. I'm a dad. And I care 

5 about the future of our planet for myself, but I 

6 really care about the future of our planet for my 

7 son and his future children.

8 We're very lucky. My son has grown up 

9 going to the beaches of Rhode Island and 

10 Maryland, enjoying the sun, water, and sand, and 

11 collecting sea glass. I worry about what will 

12 happen to these beaches as he grows up and his 

13 children are born. Will climate change increase 

14 the sea levels so that all that he knows now will 

15 soon be under water? Will he be able to bring 

16 his children to these same beaches?

17 Right now, the house we go to each summer 

18 in Rhode Island, since 1976, is surrounded by 

19 water on all sides. The road that leads to the 

20 house was washed out during a storm, making it 

21 almost impossible to get to the home. I want to 

22 be able to tell my son that this home will be 

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1 there forever. But I can't. Due to climate 

2 change, there's a good possibility that this 

3 summer home will no longer be reachable.

4 I'm here to ask that EPA take action. 

5 The EPA should propose strong carbon pollution 

6 standards for new power plants so they can't dump 

7 unlimited amounts of dangerous carbon pollution 

8 into the air. In fact, addressing climate change 

9 is our obligation to our children and future 

10 generations, and the EPA can take the largest 

11 step our country has ever taken in that effort by 

12 limiting carbon pollution from new power plants.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, Mr. Dakin.

15 MS. PIEN: Hello. Thank you for the 

16 opportunity to speak to you today. My name is 

17 Natalie Pien, and I represent a local chapter of 

18 Bill McKibben's 350.org, 350 Loudon.

19 I'm a strong supporter of regulations for 

20 carbon dioxide emissions from new electric power 

21 plants. I live in nearby Leesburg, Virginia, 

22 where I'm a public schoolteacher. I have 

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1 cosponsored an ecology club for the past 15 

2 years.

3 Regrettably, the environmental 

4 stewardship that my students have developed is 

5 not in the dialog of today's adults who are in 

6 power. The corporate greed of my generation's 

7 oil industry executives has made a goal for 

8 short-term profits rather than long-term 

9 sustainability.

10 I think that the oil industry would do 

11 well to follow the lead of the pharmacy chain, 

12 CVS, which has boldly put profits secondary to 

13 people. As it is, I am fearful for the future my 

14 students will face.

15 More immediately, I'm concerned about the 

16 safety of my younger daughter Elise, a straight-A 

17 student her entire academic career from first 

18 grade through twelfth grade, and even in college, 

19 despite my repeated encouragements to get a B.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MS. PIEN: And she graduated magna cum 

22 laude, and this is her graduation picture last 

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1 spring.

2 She is now living in Norfolk, Virginia, 

3 pursuing a graduate degree in physical therapy. 

4 Norfolk, due to its geography and population 

5 distribution, will become the next New Orleans 

6 when it is hit by a major storm. Luckily, Sandy 

7 did not strike Norfolk, but luck cannot be 

8 depended upon. And Elise, through no fault of 

9 her own, is living in harm's way.

10 Sea level rise is already impacting the 

11 Norfolk area. The Unitarian Universalist Church 

12 of Norfolk advises its congregation to check the 

13 tide table before coming to worship in order to 

14 avoid flooded areas.

15 The Virginia Assembly recognizes this 

16 problem and has a bill to study it. However, in 

17 order to get the bill passed, the liberal words 

18 such as "sea level rise" and "climate change" 

19 could not be used. Instead, the bill uses the 

20 climate-denial words "effects of recurrent 

21 flooding."

22 The Supreme Court has affirmed EPA's 

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1 authority to regulate carbon dioxide. And I urge 

2 you to do so in an expedient manner. Do not 

3 consider climate in my arguments. Do not 

4 compromise on regulations limiting carbon 

5 pollution from new power plants. Instead, act 

6 aggressively to promulgate effective regulations 

7 that will limit carbon pollution to the extent 

8 necessary and, in time, to make a difference.

9 We, the people, are depending upon you to 

10 prevent the oil industry from continuing to put 

11 profit above people and ruin the planet while 

12 they're at it. The externalities of producing 

13 power from fossil fuels must be addressed by the 

14 industry. The price of carbon pollution must be 

15 paid by the polluter, not the people through 

16 increased health care costs, infrastructure 

17 costs, or insurance costs.

18 The playing field must be leveled so that 

19 alternative forms of energy will be competitive, 

20 so that our electrical energy needs can be met in 

21 a sustainable fashion. Use your authority to 

22 help our society transition to one that is 

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1 sustainable by using renewable energy.

2 We need it to protect our environment so 

3 that we can live in a world safe from extreme 

4 climate change. We need you to earn, if you 

5 will, a straight-A record on this issue. There 

6 is no such thing as being an over-achiever when 

7 fighting climate change.

8 The air we breathe is an essential common 

9 resource for everyone, and it must be protected. 

10 We owe it to our children and future generations. 

11 They deserve to live in a world as rich and 

12 vibrant and diverse as the one we grew up in.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, Ms. Pien.

15 The next two speakers are Joelle Novey --

16 I hope I got that right -- and Madison Poche.

17 Joelle Novey?

18 (Pause.)

19 MS. NOVEY: I'm Joelle Novey with 

20 Interfaith Power and Light. Through Interfaith 

21 Power and Light, hundreds of congregations in 

22 Northern Virginia, D.C., and Maryland are working 

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1 together to respond to climate change. I am 

2 holding a stack of messages for you from folks in 

3 our local religious communities, calling on the 

4 EPA to set strong limits on carbon pollution.

5 When an earlier version of this safeguard 

6 was proposed, 3.2 million Americans sent messages 

7 to the EPA in support of the rule -- 3.2 million. 

8 It can be hard to make sense of really big 

9 numbers, but please take a moment to remember 

10 that there is a face like mine behind every one 

11 of those comments.

12 In the Interfaith Power and Light 

13 network, let me give you a sense where some of 

14 those 3.2 million comments came from. Volunteers 

15 set up card tables after services in their 

16 congregations in the very communities where they 

17 find sustenance and direction. During fellowship 

18 hour, as people schmoozed to drink coffee and 

19 chased children, these volunteers spoke with 

20 their friends about why they support national 

21 limits on carbon pollution.

22 And then, one by one, caring people in 

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1 congregations around the country signed postcards 

2 to the EPA, where they joined thousands and 

3 thousands of similar messages.

4 These folks gathered comments because 

5 they understand that the numbers about what is 

6 happening to our climate are also numbers with 

7 faces behind them. The concentrations of carbon 

8 dioxide in our atmosphere, up over 400 parts per 

9 million, is higher than it has ever been in 

10 hundreds of thousands of years. The temperature 

11 has already gone up 1.4 degrees in the past 150 

12 years, and global average temperature is rising 

13 faster and faster. Those numbers, too, are 

14 really about human faces. 

15 The religious communities in which I work 

16 are heartsick about the stronger storms, 

17 devastating floods, droughts, disease, and 

18 displacement that a warming world is already 

19 causing. Climate change is hurting our neighbors 

20 close to home and around the world.

21 Let me tell you about why I am one of the 

22 millions of people who decided to speak out to 

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1 the EPA in support of carbon pollution limits. 

2 The teaching from my own tradition that informs 

3 my thoughts on this comes from Rabbi Isaac ben 

4 Sheshet, a fourteenth-century scholar of Jewish 

5 law. He wrote, "One is forbidden from gaining a 

6 livelihood at the expense of another's health." 

7 "One is forbidden from gaining a livelihood at 

8 the expense of another's health." Simple, 

9 ethical wisdom, not bad for the Middle Ages.

10 For too long, here, now, those who build 

11 our power plants have been permitted to gain 

12 their livelihoods at the expense of people's 

13 health. There have been limits on other kinds of 

14 pollutants, but there have been no limits at all 

15 on carbon pollution.

16 You'll be hearing a lot from polluters in 

17 the coming days, saying that any limits on carbon 

18 pollution will interfere with their jobs. They 

19 have every right to make an honorable living. 

20 But it should be forbidden in this country for 

21 anyone to make their livelihood at the expense of 

22 people's health -- 3.2 million Americans took the 

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1 time to contact the EPA to say so.

2 In the religious communities with which I 

3 work, people are working to reduce their 

4 electricity use in their sanctuaries and at home. 

5 They are climbing up on ladders to change to more 

6 efficient light bulbs. They are working together 

7 to support clean energy through their energy 

8 bills. They fought hard to bring offshore wind 

9 power to Maryland's coast, and they are willing 

10 to spend many hours in committee meetings 

11 figuring out how to finance solar panels for 

12 their roofs.

13 So often, we are told that the change we 

14 are trying to make is unrealistic because clean 

15 energy is so expensive, while dirty energy is 

16 cheap. But who pays for dirty energy? Who bears 

17 the cost of bad air quality, the cost of kids 

18 with asthma and seniors having heart attacks and 

19 pregnant mothers with mercury in their bodies? 

20 Who bears the cost of stronger storms, extreme 

21 drought, devastating floods, and other scary 

22 weather caused by climate change?

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1 Any energy we pay for through the 

2 permanent destruction of our climate, any energy 

3 people pay for with our health isn't cheap 

4 energy. It is intolerably expensive. This isn't 

5 about numbers. It's about people.

6 Please proceed to issue and approve 

7 strong carbon pollution standards for new power 

8 plants, and then for all other major sources of 

9 climate pollution.

10 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

11 MS. POCHE: Hello. My name is Madison 

12 Poche, P-o-c-h-e. I work with Environment 

13 Virginia, which is a statewide citizen-based 

14 environmental advocacy organization. But today I 

15 am here as a citizen and as a young person who 

16 has decided to make it my life's work to help 

17 tackle global warming, which is the most pressing 

18 environmental challenge of our time.

19 I'm actually a fourth-generation New 

20 Orleanian, which despite the city's reputation, 

21 was a fantastic place to grow up. It's the place 

22 where my father achieved his dream of starting a 

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1 small business. It's the place where my family

2 has been going to the same high school for 

3 generations.

4 It's also where I learned to take time to 

5 enjoy the unique food and music and festivals 

6 that create community and culture that we hold so 

7 dear.

8 So, when Hurricane Katrina hit, my home 

9 was under water, along with my father's business 

10 and that high school. And while we can count the 

11 deaths and personal bankruptcies and tax dollars 

12 that flowed in for recovery after the storm, it's 

13 harder to quantify the kind of grief that extreme 

14 weather causes on communities.

15 Global climate change, I know that I'm 

16 one of the lucky ones. With increasingly 

17 frequent and severe extreme weather events, from 

18 stronger storms to record-breaking droughts, to 

19 floods and forest fires, climate change puts 

20 fundamental human needs, like food and shelter, 

21 at risk.

22 So now I see this work, so that in my 

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1 work in the Hampton Roads areas and other 

2 communities, that we have an opportunity to take 

3 action before it's too late. And we have 

4 solutions. Clean pollution-free energy is 

5 already proven and commercially viable and 

6 working and taking off.

7 So, we have a great opportunity to take 

8 action and to say that building new dirty power 

9 plants is not in the best interest of communities 

10 across America. Thank you.

11 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

12 The next two speakers, Senator Sheldon 

13 Whitehouse and Joe O'Shea.

14 Good afternoon, Senator.

15 SENATOR WHITEHOUSE: Good afternoon. 

16 Should I proceed?

17 MR. HAEUBER: Please.

18 SENATOR WHITEHOUSE: I don't need to be 

19 sworn in here, huh?

20 (Laughter.)

21 SENATOR WHITEHOUSE: I'm used to being on 

22 the other end of the hearings.

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1 This year is our 37th straight year with 

2 a global temperature above the twentieth-century 

3 average. It's the fourth hottest year on record 

4 in the Continental United States.

5 As we sit here in this hearing, 

6 California and parts of Nevada are experiencing 

7 extreme drought. A report today said California 

8 hadn't seen dry weather like that since 1580. 

9 Parts of Oregon are under severe drought. This 

10 past fall, Colorado had what scientists call a 1-

11 in-1,000-year flood. And we in New England are 

12 still digging out from the effects of Hurricane 

13 Sandy, which topped the 500-year storm flood 

14 lines in New York City.

15 Carbon dioxide levels are way outside 

16 anything humankind has lived in, going back over 

17 8,000 centuries. Oceans are likely acidifying 

18 faster than they have since the time of the 

19 dinosaurs.

20 What this does is not a matter of 

21 dispute. Since the Civil War, we've known carbon 

22 dioxide warms the atmosphere, period. The ocean 

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1 absorbing carbon from the atmosphere that turns 

2 it acidic is known, not debatable. It's a law of 

3 science. It can be replicated in a laboratory. 

4 A warming ocean, raising sea levels, is called 

5 the law of thermal expansion.

6 The largest source of carbon pollution in 

7 the United States is power plants. And, yes, it 

8 is carbon pollution when there's too darn much of 

9 it. Arsenic is found in nature, too. But I 

10 wouldn't recommend taking too much of it.

11 Power plants are an important place for 

12 EPA to start. The 50 dirtiest American power 

13 plants emit more carbon dioxide than all of 

14 Canada or all of Korea. And carbon pollution 

15 doesn't come free. Not on my Rhode Island 

16 shoreline, not for my Rhode Island fishermen, not 

17 for flooded Rhode Island factories along our 

18 rivers.

19 Nor for lumbermen in Oregon, whose 

20 forests have died; ski operators in Vermont, 

21 whose seasons have shortened; oyster farmers in 

22 Washington, whose spat were killed; farmers in 

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1 California, looking out at drought-parched 

2 fields; or cherry growers in Michigan, who lost 

3 their crop; or for that matter, millions of other 

4 Americans who are paying the price.

5 What is the price? Through these carbon 

6 pollution effects and many others, the 50 

7 dirtiest power plants are offloading roughly $24 

8 billion in harm onto the public each year. It's 

9 not fair to the rest of us.

10 What am I supposed to say to a mom 

11 sitting in a Rhode Island emergency room with her 

12 kid on a nebulizer trying to recover from an 

13 asthma attack that was caused by ozone from an 

14 out-of-state power plant? "Sorry"? "Tough luck, 

15 you"? I don't think so.

16 And here's the strong medicine we have to

17 face: Congress has been incapacitated by 

18 polluting special interests. We are in the midst 

19 of an historic scandal. Citizens united set 

20 loose the polluter money, and it has poisoned our 

21 democracy. History will be a harsh judge of this 

22 moment. But the fact is polluter money has 

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1 Congress tied up in knots.

2 This is real. And people who don't want 

3 to agree are going to have to get over it. We do 

4 best to get it done now, while there's till time 

5 to prevent the worst damage to nature, while 

6 there's still time to prevent the worst 

7 embarrassment to our democracy, while there is 

8 still time to prevent the worst injury to 

9 America's leadership in the world.

10 If we don't get this right, we can't 

11 expect that the laws of nature will make an 

12 exception for us. We can't expect that our 

13 enemies and rivals around the world are going to 

14 give us a pass for having blown it so badly at 

15 this time of consequence. We can't expect that 

16 we'll get a do-over.

17 So I applaud EPA for its work to strike 

18 at the heart of carbon pollution, to protect our 

19 natural world from degradation and our democracy 

20 from disgrace. We are counting on you. Thank 

21 you very much.

22 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

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1 Mr. O'Shea?

2 MR. O'SHEA: Thanks. I want to begin by 

3 giving thanks for the opportunity to speak today. 

4 I speak as a college student, a volunteer with 

5 several local environmental organizations, and as 

6 a citizen.

7 Did you hear Yev Sano, the Philippine 

8 representative to the UN Climate Change 

9 Conference? He spoke through tears over the loss 

10 of life of his countrymen in the wake of Super11 typhoon Haiyan, which affected 11 million people 

12 and caused $1.5 billion in damage this past year.

13 His words to the world moved me. He 

14 said, "To anyone who continues to deny the 

15 reality that is climate change, I dare you to get 

16 away from the comfort of your armchair to where 

17 climate change has become a matter of life and 

18 death."

19 I decided to respond to Yev Sano's call 

20 by volunteering this winter with Interfaith Power 

21 and Light, an organization which engages 

22 congregations of all faiths in responding to 

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1 climate change.

2 Climate change can seem daunting to local 

3 religious communities, a Goliath. But I've seen 

4 the positive impact ordinary people can make when 

5 they're compelled by their consciences to join 

6 together and take action. People in religious 

7 communities have always tried to do unto their 

8 neighbors as they would have done unto them, and 

9 today that means fighting climate change.

10 But just as concerned citizens are unable 

11 to alleviate the massive inequality and suffering 

12 in the world without the help of government, so 

13 too must we seek our government's help in 

14 fighting the great existential threat we face in 

15 climate change.

16 Government agencies, with our support, 

17 are up to the task. You have tackled huge 

18 problems before for the good of all. It was the 

19 government that, in 1941, mobilized and inspired 

20 a nation to fight the forces of tyranny, from the 

21 highest levels of the state to the families that 

22 recycled tin cans. It was the government that 

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1 has protected our national parks, and it is the 

2 government that has put a person on the moon.

3 These are projects that well-meaning 

4 citizens, even the fantastic congregations of 

5 Interfaith Power and Light, could not have 

6 accomplished alone. And these are projects that 

7 no corporation would have dared to lead because 

8 they required our collective action. But in 

9 hindsight, who can argue against their benefit to 

10 everyone?

11 Today, we face a bigger crisis in scale 

12 than any we've seen before, and one unique in our 

13 history. There is no flag to plant on the 

14 surface of global warming. There is no single 

15 project to finish, and it will be decades before 

16 we can declare victory. But the Goliath we face 

17 is coming up over the hill to meet us already.

18 The economic costs of adjusting to higher 

19 temperatures, rebuilding destroyed 

20 infrastructure, and relocating citizens away from 

21 devastated areas will only increase year after 

22 year. Storms even larger than Haiyan, Katrina, 

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1 Sandy, and Rita will continue to threaten friends 

2 and loved ones all over the world.

3 If we do nothing or if we do too little, 

4 there will come a time when we cannot ignore the 

5 problem any longer. But unlike all the other 

6 crises we've faced, by then it will be too late.

7 So, I call on the EPA, listen to your 

8 citizens, including our faith communities, and 

9 listen to those who will look back in the future 

10 as we look back now. This project is just one 

11 step among many that we will have to take as a 

12 society to beat climate change.

13 Please promptly pass a strong rule 

14 limiting carbon pollution for new power plants. 

15 And then proceed to issue rules limiting carbon 

16 pollution from existing power plants. Your 

17 citizens are counting on you. Thank you.

18 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, Mr. O'Shea.

19 Our next two speakers are Barbara 

20 Weinstein and Michael Green. And also, I want to 

21 see if Michelle Passerelli (phonetic) is in the 

22 room? If you are, you left your ID at the desk.

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1 (Pause.)

2 MR. HAEUBER: Ms. Weinstein?

3 MS. WEINSTEIN: Yes. Thank you. Good 

4 afternoon. I'm Barbara Weinstein, Director of 

5 the Commission on Social Action of Reformed 

6 Judaism and Associate Director of the Religious 

7 Action Center of Reformed Judaism, which 

8 advocates on behalf of the Union for Reformed 

9 Judaism, whose 900 congregations across North 

10 America include 1.3 million Jews, and the Central 

11 Conference of American Rabbis, whose membership 

12 includes more than 2,000 reformed rabbis.

13 Thank you for the opportunity to speak in 

14 support of the proposed carbon pollution 

15 standards for new power plants. These standards 

16 reflect our nation's commitment to combating 

17 climate change, which is not just an 

18 environmental challenge, but one of the great 

19 social-justice challenges of our time.

20 Our interest in this issue is rooted in 

21 the Jewish tradition's rich teachings about our 

22 responsibility to the earth, to humanity, and all 

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1 of creation. In Biblical commentary, God says to 

2 Adam, "See to it that you don't spoil or destroy 

3 my world. For if you do, there will be no one to 

4 repair it after you."

5 Our reformed Jewish values call on us to 

6 be stewards of the earth, not just for our own 

7 benefit and the wellbeing of those with whom we 

8 share the planet today, but because of our 

9 responsibility to the generations that succeed 

10 us. These guiding principles inspire our support 

11 of measures to stem the impact of climate change, 

12 including the EPA's proposed regulations on 

13 carbon emissions from new power plants.

14 As you well know, the September 2013 

15 report from the UN International Panel on Climate 

16 Change found that climate scientists are 95 

17 percent confident that climate change is due to 

18 human impact, 90 percent certain that the last 

19 30-year period is the warmest in 800 years, and 

20 99 percent sure that the rise in sea levels has 

21 accelerated over the last two centuries.

22 Climate change is happening, and its 

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1 impact on our air, land, and water is 

2 increasingly apparent. And as evidenced by the 

3 recent tragedy of the typhoon in the Philippines 

4 and droughts afflicting Africa and the havoc 

5 wreaked by Hurricane Sandy, among other 

6 incidents, climate change is contributing to more 

7 frequent and severe extreme weather events.

8 As significant an issue as this is for 

9 the environment itself, climate change is also 

10 causing economic, social, and a range of other 

11 challenges that impact residents of the United 

12 States and every nation on earth. And as is 

13 often the case, those who were already the most 

14 vulnerable are feeling the impact most.

15 By this Agency's own estimate, about 1.4 

16 billion people live in extreme poverty worldwide 

17 and will have a particularly difficult time 

18 adapting to our rapidly changing climate. Tens 

19 of millions of people in low-lying areas will be 

20 forced to leave their homes. And due to the 

21 increased flying range of mosquitoes, malaria and 

22 other infectious diseases are likely to spread to 

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1 areas that have never experienced them before.

2 One international report estimates that 

3 climate change causes an average of 400,000 

4 deaths per year, and the vast majority of which 

5 are in developing countries.

6 Within the U.S., studies show a wide 

7 racial and economic gap when it comes to air 

8 pollution, with communities of color and those 

9 with less formal schooling and high poverty rates 

10 more at risk of asthma, cardiovascular disease, 

11 and cancer.

12 The U.S. may be home to only 5 percent of 

13 the world's population, but we produce about 19 

14 percent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. 

15 And we have a responsibility to people of our own 

16 country and to our global community to address 

17 this climate crisis. Implementing the proposed 

18 limitation on carbon emissions from new power 

19 plants targets a key source of pollution and 

20 demonstrates our country's commitment to the 

21 health and wellbeing of our planet and its 

22 inhabitants.

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1 So we applaud the EPA and President 

2 Obama's leadership in strengthening and enforcing 

3 limits on harmful carbon emissions, and call on 

4 you today to maintain this strong proposed rule 

5 when it is finalized. Thank you.

6 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

7 Mr. Green?

8 MR. GREEN: Hello. My name is Michael 

9 Green. And I'm here on behalf of the Climate 

10 Action Liaison Coalition in Boston, 

11 Massachusetts, where I serve as the Director; and 

12 also on behalf of the American Sustainable 

13 Business Council here in D.C.

14 I would like to thank the EPA for having 

15 this process and having this as transparent as 

16 possible, where various stakeholders can come and 

17 voice our concerns and our opinions. And I 

18 applaud you in that regard.

19 Now, CALC is a coalition of businesses 

20 who are working to take targeted action on 

21 climate change through bold internal 

22 sustainability, and building a platform for small 

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1 businesses' political advocacy on climate policy. 

2 Our coalition is made up of Main Street 

3 businesses from across New England. And I was 

4 asked to come down and share our vision of the 

5 future with you here at the EPA, and especially 

6 how you can help us get there.

7 As a coalition of small businesses, we 

8 have decided that the fossil-fuel-based economy 

9 is a bad business decision for us, for our 

10 livelihoods, and for our communities. We can no 

11 longer afford to pump money out of our states in 

12 New England while our communities are adversely 

13 affected by our continued use of coal-fired power 

14 plants.

15 When the new standards are released, the 

16 EPA has to continue to do their work that they 

17 are mandated to do. You need to stand up for the 

18 environment and the health of our people. One 

19 thing you need to know is that you're not alone. 

20 You have this room that's been full all day today 

21 with people that have been supporting you. And 

22 there is thousands and millions of us back in our 

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1 local communities that are also standing up for 

2 you.

3 But we need you to do what's not 

4 necessarily politically feasible, but what's 

5 necessary to do what the science is telling us to 

6 do. Because of that, we need the EPA to act to a 

7 degree of boldness that meets the challenges we 

8 face. Even with the President's call for a 17 

9 percent reduction rate in greenhouse gas 

10 emissions from electric generation, we're going 

11 to create an emissions gap, where what we're 

12 doing isn't going to stop our changing climate. 

13 We're still going to be warming.

14 So, what we need you to do is start to 

15 take the actions that are going to help us meet 

16 what the science is telling and put this 

17 devastating warming on hold to support the small 

18 business communities across the country. We need 

19 the EPA to find what it takes to bridge that gap 

20 and do what we're going to need to do to stay 

21 below a -- or stay above a 26 percent reduction 

22 by 2020.

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1 This can be done in several ways. First, 

2 we're going to need bold regulation on behalf of 

3 the EPA that's then going to give a green light 

4 to renewables and to investors that this is no 

5 longer a smart investment choice for them. In 

6 Massachusetts alone, we've already seen the 

7 decommissioning of all of our coal plants by the 

8 year 2017, as well as the state calling to divest 

9 their money from pension plans which invest into 

10 the fossil-fuel industry.

11 The next step that we're going to need to 

12 do is we're going to need to put a price on 

13 carbon. For the plants that are already in 

14 existence, as well as for other large 

15 manufacturers and infrastructures here in the 

16 state that are not able to be leaders in weaning 

17 themselves off their fossil-fuel bitch, we're 

18 going to have to start to charge them for that 

19 and force them to reduce their emissions.

20 We're not buying the argument that strong 

21 bold regulations are going to hinder the economy. 

22 We believe that it will bring future stability to 

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1 energy markets and provide a roadmap for a secure 

2 future.

3 Know that when you act, you're not acting 

4 alone. Our member businesses and partners around 

5 the country are awakening from this fossil-fuel 

6 nightmare, and more and more small and medium 

7 enterprises are valuing their ecological 

8 footprint just as much as their bottom line.

9 If we cross a two-degree threshold, we 

10 start to step into uncharted territory, which 

11 would have a devastating effect on the small 

12 business community and the backbone of America. 

13 We cannot afford to wait any longer. We need our 

14 leaders to have the courage and to build for the 

15 vision of a sustainable economic future that we 

16 ask of you and that we know we are willing to 

17 support. Thank you very much.

18 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

19 Our next two speakers are David Hawkins 

20 and Liz Schmitt.

21 (Pause.)

22 MR. HAEUBER: Mr. Hawkins?

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1 MR. HAWKINS: Thank you. Senator 

2 Whitehouse mentioned the 37-year record of 

3 elevated temperatures. Well, 37 years ago, I was 

4 working at EPA, sitting at a table much like 

5 yours, listening to representatives of the coal 

6 industry argue that technology did not exist to 

7 meet the standards that EPA was proposing for 

8 coal-fired power plants.

9 Well, they were wrong then, and they're 

10 wrong now. The truth is we can't protect the 

11 climate unless we control carbon pollution from 

12 power plants. They are the biggest source of 

13 carbon pollution in the United States. They are 

14 the biggest source of carbon pollution in the 

15 world.

16 EPA has proposed standards that set a 

17 level playing field with natural gas, the chief 

18 competitor, fossil-fuel competitor for power 

19 resources. That's good policy, period. And 

20 anyone who argues that EPA should coddle the coal 

21 industry by setting sweetheart standards for coal 

22 plants is acting against the interests of 

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1 electricity customers and against the interests 

2 of all of us who depend on a hospitable climate 

3 to enjoy safe, secure, and fulfilling lives.

4 Now, EPA's proposal rests on solid 

5 technical, economic, and legal grounds. EPA 

6 bases the emissions standard from new coal on the 

7 capability of partial carbon-capture technology 

8 coupled with geologic sequestration of that 

9 captured carbon, or CCS.

10 CCS systems have three components, all of 

11 which have been demonstrated in commercial 

12 industrial-scale application for decades. CO2 

13 capture equipment separates CO2 from industrial 

14 gas streams. Then compressed captured CO2 is 

15 typically transported off site, by truck in 

16 smaller applications and by pipeline at larger 

17 scales.

18 Large-scale geologic injection of CO2 has 

19 been practiced for decades in the enhanced oil 

20 recovery operations, and since 1996 in dedicated 

21 geologic storage sites. Details on this 

22 experience can be found at the database 

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1 maintained by MIT and databases linked from the 

2 MIT site.

3 Now, this commercial experience proves 

4 that carbon capture is demonstrated technology 

5 for commercial-scale industrial facilities. And 

6 the systems to transport and inject captured CO2 

7 in amounts relevant to the power sector also are 

8 demonstrated.

9 We know that carbon capture works at 

10 power plants because it's in use today at a 

11 number of plants to produce CO2 for the food and 

12 beverage industry.

13 Now, the amounts captured are only a 

14 fraction of these plants' CO2 emissions, but 

15 that's not due to any technical limitation on 

16 capture. Rather, it's entirely an economic 

17 decision. In the absence of any legal 

18 requirement to capture CO2, power plant operators 

19 practice it only at a scale that's profitable 

20 today.

21 But larger-scale CCS can be applied to 

22 any new coal plants that are built, with only 

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1 modest cost impacts. The analysis accompanying 

2 EPA's proposed standards demonstrates that the 

3 cost of producing electricity from a new coal 

4 plant employing partial CCS systems would fall in 

5 the range of alternative power systems other than 

6 natural gas. And that's the correct comparison 

7 to make.

8 It's important to note that the impacts 

9 on customers' electric rates from this standard 

10 would be much less than the production cost 

11 increases. That's because production cost 

12 increases are only a fraction of each customer's 

13 electric bill and because new coal plants will be 

14 a very small fraction of the generation fleet in 

15 all power markets.

16 Turning to legal issues, some have 

17 claimed that EPA's proposal runs afoul of the 

18 2005 Energy Policy Act. That's not correct. 

19 EPA's proposal rests on substantial existing 

20 experience with all aspects of CCS systems that I 

21 summarized earlier. To conclude, this CCS is 

22 adequately demonstrated technology.

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1 EPA also cited several pending projects 

2 using CCS, three of which have received federal 

3 financial aid, to show that the power industry 

4 has confidence in the technical readiness of CCS 

5 systems.

6 The 2005 Energy Act does not prevent EPA 

7 from considering such projects in assessing 

8 whether CCS has been adequately demonstrated. 

9 That Act says only that such projects alone shall 

10 not establish that the technology is 

11 demonstrated. But EPA is not relying on those 

12 projects alone. Its treatment of this issue is 

13 entirely consistent with the Act, and amply 

14 supported by evidence entirely separate from 

15 those projects.

16 Finally, some have asked why EPA should 

17 set carbon standards for new coal plants since, 

18 with current market conditions, no new coal 

19 plants are projected to be built.

20 The answer is simple. Market conditions 

21 change. America's electricity system needs to be 

22 designed to meet health and environment standards 

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1 we need today and tomorrow. Waiting for the coal 

2 power market to revive before setting carbon 

3 standards for new plants would be irresponsible. 

4 It would be like a school bus driver who waits 

5 until an oncoming train appears and then tries to 

6 race it to the rail crossing.

7 In conclusion, we urge you to act 

8 promptly to finalize these standards after you 

9 have considered the public comments. Thank you.

10 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

11 Ms. Schmitt?

12 MS. SCHMITT: Good afternoon, and thank 

13 you all for the opportunity to speak. My name is 

14 Liz Schmitt, and I work on Creation Care for 

15 Sojourners, which is a Christian organization 

16 articulating the Biblical call to social justice.

17 And I'm here today on behalf of the 2,130 

18 people of faith who added their names to our 

19 public comment on this proposed standard for new20 source carbon pollution. All 2,000 of us support 

21 EPA in its actions to regulate pollution that 

22 harms both human health and God's creation.

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1 I know from conversations with 

2 evangelical Christians that EPA has a great deal 

3 of support in its efforts to limit carbon, just 

4 like we limit mercury and other harmful forms of 

5 pollution. We must do this because, as Jesus 

6 tells us, we need to care the least of these, the 

7 poor and vulnerable who bear the greatest burden 

8 from climate change.

9 I know from my background in economics 

10 that if the energy market continues as it's 

11 likely to, there will not be many, if any, new 

12 coal-fired power plants built in the U.S. in the 

13 future, meaning that the really important piece 

14 of this standard is what it means for natural15 gas-fired power plants, both new plants and those 

16 switching from coal to natural gas.

17 This is not a war on coal. It is an 

18 urgently needed rule to ensure that natural gas, 

19 which President Obama likes to call our "bridge 

20 fuel," until we really invest in clean energy, is 

21 actually as low carbon as it can be.

22 The time for industry to say they can't 

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1 afford to modernize is long over. The time to 

2 put sensible limits on pollutants is now, for the 

3 sake of creation and for people born and unborn.

4 I know that I don't need to explain to 

5 folks from the EPA the likely impacts of climate 

6 change or the fact that the Supreme Court ordered 

7 your Agency to regulate carbon as a pollutant 

8 that harms human health. But I'm simply here as 

9 one of dozens of people of faith who have 

10 testified today in favor of the standard, and 

11 representing the 2000 people of faith, mostly 

12 evangelical Christians, who signed my 

13 organization's public comment supporting your 

14 actions.

15 So, I'll just close by reading that 

16 statement that they signed:

17 "Climate change continues to harm 

18 vulnerable people in the United States and around 

19 the world. And these new standards will help 

20 keep carbon pollution from fossil fuels out of 

21 the air, while helping develop a clean energy 

22 economy.

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1 "There is simply no reason to allow 

2 unchecked carbon pollution from new power plants, 

3 which should be built using the best available 

4 technology so that we lighten our burden on God's 

5 creation. And I applaud you at the EPA for doing 

6 your duty in protecting our health from unchecked 

7 carbon pollution and climate change."

8 So, thank you again so much for the 

9 opportunity to speak and for considering my 

10 comments. And I'll just close with a quote from 

11 Psalm 24, which tells us that "The earth is the 

12 Lord's and all that is in it, the land and those 

13 who dwell in it." And as a Christian, I thank 

14 you for your work protecting the earth and those 

15 who dwell in it today and future generations as 

16 well. Thank you.

17 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both.

18 So, our next two speakers are Rhett 

19 Engelking and Mary Minette.

20 (Pause.)

21 Mr. Engelking?

22 MR. ENGELKING: Sure. Peace and all 

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1 good. My name is Rhett Engelking. And I left a 

2 job in health care to work for the Franciscan 

3 Action Network and direct a young adult 

4 initiative called the Franciscan Earth Corps.

5 We're an advocacy group whose 

6 constituents are primarily clergy and laypeople 

7 who have patterned their life after St. Francis 

8 and St. Claire of Assisi.

9 Those in popular culture may know Francis 

10 of Assisi as the namesake of our current Pope 

11 Francis. And according to a recent CNN poll, the 

12 Holy Father holds an 88 percent approval among 

13 American Catholics and 75 percent rating among 

14 American non-Catholics. And he's attained that 

15 level of popularity largely by speaking 

16 truthfully about the throwaway culture which 

17 often leads to sacrificing men and women to the 

18 idols of profit and consumption.

19 In his most recent Papal exhortation, he 

20 wrote, "A globalization of indifference has 

21 developed. One cause of the situation is found 

22 in our relationship with money, since we commonly 

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1 accept its dominion over ourselves and our 

2 societies. The current financial crisis has made 

3 us overlook the fact that it originated in a 

4 profound human crisis, the denial of the primacy 

5 of the human person.

6 "We've created new idols. The worship of 

7 this ancient golden calf has returned in a new 

8 and ruthless guise in the idolatry of money and 

9 the dictatorship of an impersonal economy lacking 

10 a truly human purpose. The worldwide crisis 

11 affecting the finance and economy lays bare their 

12 imbalances and, above all, their real concern for 

13 human beings, reducing man to one of his needs 

14 alone: consumption."

15 Now, it might not be readily apparent 

16 what the connection between idolatry and 

17 impersonal economy has to our discussion of 

18 emissions standards, but if you'll bear with me, 

19 I'd like to elaborate.

20 Part of my work with the Franciscan 

21 Action Network, I was directly involved in 

22 medical care for over eight years. In the 

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1 business world, all costs that affect people who 

2 don't choose to incur these costs are called 

3 externalities. And through my work as a clinical 

4 researcher in emergency medicine, and as a 

5 therapist at a prominent psychiatric hospital, I 

6 witnessed firsthand these so-called externalities 

7 in the personal lives of the patients that I 

8 served.

9 The mantra of the externality is, 

10 "Someone else will take care of this problem." 

11 And this indifference to the impact of 

12 externalities points precisely to the human 

13 crisis that the Pope refers to, the denial of the 

14 primacy of the human person.

15 The health of children is the externality 

16 that is at stake here with regard to carbon 

17 emissions. And it seems that energy profits have 

18 come at the expense of these children.

19 And I began working at a psychiatric 

20 hospital dealing with children with attention 

21 deficit disorder, developmental disorders, and 

22 diagnoses along the spectrum of autism. These 

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1 are children who have been born with profound 

2 biological disadvantages in their learning 

3 capabilities and their ability to behave 

4 appropriately in a variety of social settings.

5 These disadvantages also translate into 

6 innumerable costs for families raising these 

7 children, and the instances of diagnoses are on 

8 the rise.

9 The children I dealt with were primarily 

10 urban black youth, and most came from families 

11 who could only afford Title 19 funded health 

12 care.

13 It should be no surprise that urban 

14 families are often the most proximal to the 

15 effects of coal power plant emissions. But it 

16 surprised me to know that an increasing body of 

17 scientific evidence has tied early exposure to 

18 environmental toxins to a troubling rise in the 

19 instances of diagnoses of attention deficit 

20 hyperactivity disorder, autism, and childhood 

21 schizophrenia.

22 These children have been shown to have 

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1 abnormally high levels of heavy metals such as 

2 lead and mercury in their bloodstreams. These 

3 metals rarely leave, and it is increasingly more 

4 frequent that they enter bodies prior to the 

5 child's birth.

6 I have had the unfortunate experience of 

7 working first-hand with a child with juvenile 

8 schizophrenia. For our purposes, I'll call him 

9 Rashad. And Rashad had more lead in his 

10 circulatory system than you would find in that of 

11 a middle-aged coal miner with black lung.

12 One of my greatest professional 

13 challenges was working with him and trying to 

14 prevent him from stabbing his classmates, who he 

15 believed were conspiring to kill him. This is an 

16 eight-year-old. And even in the mildest of 

17 circumstances, the children will struggle through 

18 life with learning disabilities. On more 

19 troubling cases, the high degree of environmental 

20 pollutants will lead to spontaneous abortion of a 

21 growing fetus.

22 I must emphasize that these are purely 

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1 externalities, and none of these affected 

2 individuals have consented to these costs. You 

3 see in the areas surrounding a coal-fired plant a 

4 dome of carbon emissions is created, which traps 

5 these toxins and creates an inescapable dome of 

6 toxic air.

7 It seems to be no coincidence that over 

8 two-thirds of the population surrounding these 

9 plants are African American families of low 

10 socio-economic status who have also shown 

11 increasing incidence of the psychiatric diagnosis 

12 that I listed previously.

13 Recent report on U.S. power plant 

14 emissions has documented 7,000 asthma-related 

15 emergency room visits, 18,000 chronic bronchitis 

16 cases, and 30,000 premature deaths. I think 

17 that's maybe in the past year. Emergency room 

18 visits such as these are directly related to 

19 externalities of carbon emission deaths. 

20 Emergency room visits -- excuse me. And all this 

21 has come in the name of increased energy 

22 consumption.

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1 So the concerned citizens that I 

2 represent recognize, as I do, that government 

3 regulatory agencies like the Environmental 

4 Protection Agency are our best hope of curbing 

5 the immediate and long-term damage of carbon 

6 emissions.

7 The EPA is our government's moral 

8 conscience on most aspects of the environment, 

9 and that is why I implore you to remember the 

10 primacy of the human person and consider the 

11 wider impact of the common good of any 

12 deregulation of our current emissions standards.

13 I would further implore that, when 

14 considering an increase in existing standards, 

15 that you continue to keep in mind the impact that 

16 seemingly harmless emissions have on the struggle 

17 of poor and everyday Americans, who yearn for 

18 upward mobility and peace of mind. Thank you.

19 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

20 Ms. Minette?

21 MS. MINETTE: I serve as the Director for 

22 Environmental Education and Advocacy for the 

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1 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The ELCA 

2 is one of the largest Christian denominations in 

3 the United States, with about 4 million members 

4 and nearly 10,000 congregations across the 50 

5 states and the Caribbean.

6 Lutherans believe that we are called by 

7 God to love and serve our neighbors, particularly 

8 those who live in poverty, and that we are also 

9 called to be stewards of God's creation. That 

10 sense of service takes a number of forms, but in 

11 one example, we respond to weather-related 

12 disasters, both in the United States through our 

13 Domestic Disaster Response Network, and globally 

14 through our membership in the Act Alliance, a 

15 global network of relief and development 

16 organizations.

17 The ELCA is working to help communities 

18 that are still recovering from Hurricanes 

19 Katrina, Rita, and Sandy. Act Alliance 

20 affiliates, with help from ELCA donations, are 

21 working to help communities in the Philippines

22 recover from Typhoon Haiyan.

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1 We know from these ministries that 

2 extreme weather events have severe impacts on 

3 low-income individuals and communities. We are 

4 told by scientists that these extreme events are 

5 growing and will continue to grow worse, due to a 

6 changing global climate and that the changes in

7 the global climate are due, in part, to our use 

8 of fossil fuels, including coal, to generate 

9 electricity.

10 We know that climate change has many 

11 other public health impacts and that those 

12 impacts fall hardest on those who are most 

13 vulnerable, including children and the elderly, 

14 and particularly hard on vulnerable people who 

15 live in poverty.

16 The ELCA and our congregations, together 

17 with communities of faith around the country, are 

18 working to reduce our own energy use in 

19 recognition of the growing threat of climate 

20 change. In fact, the ELCA's church-wide offices 

21 in Chicago are one of only two denominational 

22 headquarters to have received an Energy Star 

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1 rating for reducing energy use.

2 However, we also know that what each of 

3 us does out of faith and a sense of stewardship 

4 is not enough. To reduce our nation's 

5 significant contribution to global climate 

6 carbon-dioxide emissions, we must act 

7 collectively to reduce emissions from power 

8 plants and other major sources. For this reason, 

9 we strongly support the proposed new-source 

10 performance standards that would limit carbon 

11 emissions from new power plants.

12 When the earlier version of this rule was 

13 proposed, ELCA Lutheran spoke at several of the 

14 public hearings in support of the rule. And 

15 thousands of -- and we also joined with other 

16 people of faith in sending thousands of comments 

17 to the EPA in support of that rule.

18 We strongly support quick action to adopt 

19 and implement the rule, reducing carbon emissions 

20 from power plants as a top priority for our 

21 country and the world, if we are going to prevent 

22 the worst impacts of climate change and protect 

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1 communities around the world.

2 We look forward to your finalizing these 

3 rules in the coming months and thank you for your 

4 coming efforts to ensure a just and sustainable 

5 world for this generation and the next.

6 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both.

7 So our next two speakers, we have Melinda 

8 Pierce and Robert Jagusch. Is that anywhere 

9 close? That's what I always say to people about 

10 my name as well.

11 Ms. Pierce?

12 MS. PIERCE: Thank you. Good afternoon. 

13 My name is Melinda Pierce. I'm the Deputy 

14 Director of Federal Policy at the Sierra Club. 

15 I'm a Washingtonian and a mother. And in these 

16 capacities, I'm here to voice my support for 

17 strong standards to reduce carbon pollution from 

18 any future power plants.

19 In June, President Obama laid out his 

20 Climate Action Plan in which he directed the EPA 

21 to establish the first-ever carbon pollution 

22 standards for the power sector. The subsequent 

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1 Presidential Memorandum established a definitive 

2 timeline for EPA to propose and to finalize a 

3 regulatory framework to ensure that any proposed 

4 power plants built in the future must employ 

5 technologies to reduce the amount of carbon 

6 pollution released into the atmosphere.

7 This directive represents an important 

8 step in our country's efforts to tackle climate 

9 disruption, as power plants are the single 

10 largest source of carbon pollution. If we want 

11 to address climate disruption, if we want to move 

12 the carbon dial, we have to ensure that power 

13 plants, both new and existing, both coal and gas, 

14 do their part.

15 Up to now, these sources have been 

16 allowed to release unlimited amounts of carbon 

17 pollution into the air. And so we applaud EPA's 

18 efforts to establish a regulatory regime that 

19 will represent the first-ever carbon pollution 

20 standards for these major sources of pollution.

21 Coal-fired electricity generation is a 

22 dated technology. And our country shouldn't 

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1 commit ourselves to another generation of dirty, 

2 dangerous power plants. These EPA standards 

3 ensure that, if a power plant is proposed for 

4 construction, it must meet certain standards to 

5 ensure its carbon pollution is reduced.

6 This just makes common sense. Carbon 

7 pollution is a top driver of global climate 

8 disruption. It also contributes to smog, which 

9 triggers asthma attacks in adults and children, 

10 and it's been linked to other respiratory 

11 ailments, as well as heart disease.

12 These standards to reduce carbon 

13 pollution are well supported in the American 

14 public. Just this Tuesday, the Sierra Club 

15 released a poll that found that seven in ten 

16 Americans support EPA's efforts to set carbon 

17 pollution limits for power plants. In fact, 56 

18 percent of Americans thought those limits were 

19 already in place, although clearly they're not or 

20 we wouldn't be here today. And two out of three 

21 voters said that this issue of climate disruption 

22 is a serious problem.

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1 So, while we have heard broad support 

2 today for standards for targeting coal-fired 

3 power plants, we also need more stringent 

4 standards for gas plants. Gas plants are the 

5 plants that are most likely to be built in the 

6 next several years.

7 EPA should set a standard based on the 

8 most efficient combined-cycle turbines available 

9 and include separate standards for combustion 

10 turbines that applies to peaking plants with

11 limits on hours of operation appropriate for 

12 peaking uses.

13 So while we applaud strong carbon 

14 pollution standards for both coal- and gas-filed 

15 power plants, America can do better. Every dime 

16 we invest in the technologies of the past is a 

17 dime we're not spending to move our country away 

18 from dirty coal and towards a clean energy 

19 future. Instead of working to reduce carbon 

20 pollution power plants, we should instead invest 

21 in clean renewable energy sources like wind and 

22 solar.

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1 These are the energy futures, the energy 

2 sources that hold the key to achieve the 

3 President's goal of a 17 percent reduction in 

4 U.S. greenhouse gas emissions by 2020. Thank you 

5 for your time and attention, and thank you for 

6 the work that you do.

7 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

8 Sir?

9 MR. JAGUSCH: Good afternoon. Thank you 

10 for giving me the opportunity this afternoon to 

11 speak on this proposed rule. My name is Robert 

12 Jagusch. I am the Director of Engineering and 

13 Policy Analysis for the Minnesota Municipal 

14 Utilities Association.

15 MMUA represents 125 nonprofit customer16 owned municipal utilities, electric utilities; 32 

17 municipally owned gas utilities; and water 

18 utilities throughout the State of Minnesota. We 

19 were formed in 1931, with the task of providing 

20 reliable cost-effective electricity to our 

21 customers.

22 The average size of our utility is 2,500 

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1 customers. The one issue that we have is that 

2 most of them are in rural Minnesota, where about 

3 40 percent of the customers actually meet the 

4 low-income standard.

5 Our members appreciate that carbon 

6 capture and sequestration under the proposed rule 

7 for natural-gas-fired stationary combustion 

8 turbines is not considered the best system of 

9 emission reduction. Minnesota presently has a 

10 moratorium on new nuclear and coal plants, so 

11 we're very limited in our options for electric 

12 generation.

13 Minnesota and our neighbor to the east, 

14 Wisconsin, are unique among the lower 48 states 

15 in that there are no geologic formation of oil 

16 reserves, thus no ability to use carbon capture 

17 and sequestration for enhanced oil recovery. The 

18 proposed rule comments that carbon capture and 

19 sequestration without enhanced oil recovery is 

20 too expensive and does not meet the definition of 

21 BSER.

22 The last engineering estimate of pipeline 

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1 costs to move any high-temperature high-pressure 

2 liquid carbon out of Minnesota is approximately 

3 $1 million per inch-mile. The closest large oil 

4 fields to Minnesota is the Bakken Formation in 

5 the western side of North Dakota. The 

6 conservative estimate that I've seen on this cost 

7 to build a pipeline for a single plant from the 

8 border of North Dakota to the Bakken is about 

9 $1.5 billion, without any permitting costs 

10 included, if such a permit would ever be issued.

11 In Section 3 of the proposed rule, EPA 

12 has asked for comment on different criteria for 

13 capacity factors, sales criteria, and generation 

14 output. We support the concept of the three-year 

15 rolling average for natural gas combustion 

16 turbines with the 40 percent capacity factor.

17 This year alone, due to the temperatures 

18 in Minnesota this time of year -- we usually call 

19 it "winter" -- we have been directed to run, by 

20 the Mid-Continent Independent System Operator, 

21 MISO, our natural gas peaking generation far more 

22 than we have in any period in the last 10 years. 

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1 The three-year average will ensure that one year 

2 of high operation, such as this one, will not 

3 cause an exceedance of the rule.

4 Our members, which are also required by 

5 state law, are on schedule to meet or exceed the 

6 Minnesota goal of providing 25 percent of their 

7 electricity from renewable resources. In my job, 

8 I can state the electric grid cannot be supported 

9 by renewable energy alone. Most of this 

10 renewable energy comes from wind, which is a very 

11 intermittent resource.

12 With the increasing construction of this 

13 renewable generation, natural gas combustion 

14 turbines will be eventually needed to respond to 

15 this increased wind output. A 40-percent 

16 capacity factor for the conventional natural gas 

17 combustion turbines will give our members the 

18 capability of keeping the electric system 

19 reliable as more and more renewables are added 

20 onto our systems.

21 The proposed rule sets emissions 

22 standards for electrical generation use-nets, but 

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1 curiously, the rule is silent on regulatory 

2 requirements that account for the quality of the 

3 natural gas provided by the suppliers of the 

4 natural gas pipelines. The utility has no 

5 control or any other option to receive natural 

6 gas from any other source, based on these 

7 pipelines.

8 With winter natural gas curtailments and 

9 the high residential heating uses, we've seen 

10 lower BTU gas, heat-rate gas come through the 

11 system. With that type of a lower BTU, of 

12 course, the carbon dioxide level is increased. 

13 And we have no control over that. So we 

14 recommend that maybe EPA take a look at that 

15 portion of the rule. Thank you very much.

16 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, sir.

17 So, I hope you will include that in your 

18 comments.

19 MR. JAGUSCH: I absolutely will.

20 MR. HAEUBER: Absolutely, good.

21 Our next two speakers will be Drake 

22 Hamilton and Darian Ghorbi.

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1 Ms. Hamilton?

2 MS. HAMILTON: Good afternoon. My name 

3 is J. Drake Hamilton, and I serve as the Science 

4 Policy Director for Fresh Energy based in St. 

5 Paul, Minnesota. Fresh Energy works across the 

6 State of Minnesota and in the upper Midwest 

7 region on practical, clean energy and climate 

8 policy solutions.

9 In the last few months, we've provided 

10 members of the public in Minnesota with 

11 information about comment opportunities on this 

12 proposed rule, and thousands of Minnesotans have 

13 responded by submitting to you comments 

14 electronically and by mail. Today I submit an 

15 additional 428 comments collected at public 

16 events in the last two months in Minnesota.

17 I wanted to make you aware of a joint 

18 letter to President Obama addressed on February 

19 5th, yesterday, from Minnesota public elected 

20 officials who pledged their support for the 

21 administration's commitment to clean up power 

22 plants by limiting carbon pollution.

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1 Quote: "Under your leadership, we can 

2 help you achieve the key pillars of your plan to 

3 reduce carbon pollution, especially the first4 even national limits on carbon pollution from 

5 power plants, increasing the energy efficiency of 

6 our built environment and smarter investments in 

7 our country's renewable energy infrastructure.

8 "By committing to clean up new power 

9 plants with a stakeholder process similar to that 

10 which was used for other Clean Air Act standards, 

11 you are once again demonstrating your commitment 

12 to commonsense solutions that takes the 

13 challenges of climate change very seriously," 

14 unquote.

15 Those elected officials included 20 State 

16 Senators and Representatives from communities all 

17 across the State of Minnesota, city council 

18 members from our four largest cities --

19 Minneapolis, St. Paul, Rochester, and Duluth --

20 as well as county commissioners and suburban 

21 mayors. Minnesotans in rural centers across the 

22 state are deeply interested in climate solutions, 

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1 including cleaning up our coal plants.

2 Consider just two of the many climate 

3 forums held this fall and winter that were 

4 created from scratch by community members working 

5 together. On November 9th in Mankato, Minnesota, 

6 over 150 community members aged 10 to 91 spent 

7 the entire day, 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., working 

8 together on climate action, convened by the 

9 School Sisters of Notre Dame, city leaders from 

10 several communities, parents and grandparents, 

11 and even a local librarian.

12 On January 18th, 2014, during an intense 

13 snowstorm, 650 people gathered at St. Olaf 

14 College at the first-ever Northfield, Minnesota,

15 Area Climate Summit. The day-long event was 

16 sponsored by two colleges, many congregations, 

17 the Northfield Rotary Club, and the Northfield 

18 Chamber of Commerce. They were actually knocked 

19 back. They had 850 people registered, and 200 

20 got knocked down by the snowstorm. But 

21 Minnesotans are tough.

22 I'm inspired by the thousands of 

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1 individuals who are devoting hundreds of hours of 

2 their free time to help shape action to slow 

3 climate change. It's important to Minnesotans 

4 that our country gets this right.

5 Minnesota is more tied to coal than the 

6 country as a whole, with about 51 percent of our 

7 electricity generated from burning coal, every 

8 lump of it imported. In some parts of the state, 

9 utilities get more than 80 percent of their 

10 electricity from burning coal. So we know we 

11 need to transition to clean energy, and we have 

12 established state policies that put us on a clean 

13 energy path.

14 Our renewable energy standard requiring 

15 25 percent of our electricity to come from 

16 renewable energy by the year 2025 is working 

17 well, with every utility meeting the standard 

18 ahead of schedule. Today, Minnesota is the 

19 number-four state in per-capita wind generation. 

20 We get more than 15 percent of our power from the 

21 wind alone and have created about 3,000 jobs 

22 across the state in all components of the wind 

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1 industry.

2 Minnesota in 2007 passed bipartisan 

3 legislation that included economy-wide science4 based goals to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 

5 across the economy from 2005 levels by at least 

6 30 percent in 2025 and at least 80 percent by the 

7 year 2050. Minnesota is already working on this 

8 challenge and is seeing the economic, clean air, 

9 water, and health benefits of these market-based 

10 policies.

11 Fresh Energy urges the Environmental 

12 Protection Agency to finalize this significant 

13 first step in reducing carbon from power plants 

14 and to move forward this spring to issue draft 

15 standards to limit and lower greenhouse gas 

16 emissions from existing power plants. Thank you.

17 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

18 Mr. Ghorbi?

19 MR. GHORBI: Thank you. Good afternoon. 

20 My name is Darian Ghorbi. I'm the Director of 

21 Policy Analysis for ACCCE, the American Coalition 

22 for Clean Coal Electricity. Thank you for the 

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1 opportunity to speak today about EPA's proposed 

2 new-source performance standards, or NSPS, for 

3 CO2 for new coal- and natural-gas-fired power 

4 plants.

5 ACCCE is concerned about the impact of 

6 EPA's carbon regulations on the use of coal to 

7 produce affordable and reliable electricity. 

8 Coal plays a crucial role in providing 

9 electricity to consumers in virtually every state 

10 in the nation.

11 For example, coal provides more than one12 quarter of the electricity in 29 states, with a 

13 collective population of more than 175 million 

14 people. Unfortunately, EPA regulations have 

15 already contributed to the retirement or 

16 conversion of 330 existing coal units in 33 

17 states.

18 To begin with, we disagree with EPA's 

19 decision to regulate greenhouse gases under the 

20 Clean Air Act. EPA regulations are an 

21 ineffective and economically harmful way to 

22 address climate change.

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1 ACCCE recommends that EPA propose an NSPS 

2 based on new, highly efficient coal-fired power 

3 plants without CCS. Such a standard would allow 

4 new coal-fired power plants to be built. This 

5 proposed standard serves as a de facto moratorium 

6 on new coal-fired power plants. Such a 

7 moratorium will discourage fuel diversity in the 

8 electricity industry, which may leave regions 

9 vulnerable to fuel-price volatility.

10 CCS is an important greenhouse gas 

11 mitigation technology and may be a primary option 

12 to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions 

13 at many stationary sources. Nevertheless, CCS is 

14 not yet commercially available for coal power 

15 plants, and can cost upwards of $1 billion for a 

16 single coal-powered plant.

17 DOE and others are continuing to research 

18 advanced CCS technologies to bring down the cost 

19 and improve performance. These advanced 

20 technologies are still in the early stages of 

21 development

22 On the proposed NSPS, ACCCE offers the 

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1 following comments: First, EPA's determination

2 that CCS is adequately demonstrated is 

3 inconsistent with the plain meaning of the Clean 

4 Air Act. The term "demonstrate" generally means 

5 to prove something by showing examples of it. 

6 Courts have determined that adequately 

7 demonstrated control systems are shown to be 

8 reasonably reliable and not based on mere 

9 speculation or conjecture.

10 Plain-meaning language confirms that EPA 

11 cannot set NSPS based on the presumed 

12 availability of CCS technologies that have never 

13 been demonstrated at full scale.

14 Second, based on the criteria EPA has put 

15 forth in this proposal, CCS is not the best 

16 system of emission reductions. CCS is not viable 

17 today because of significant technological, 

18 financial, and regulatory barriers to project 

19 development. Additionally, EPA appears to 

20 underestimate the cost of CCS. Individual 

21 estimates of the levelized cost of electricity do 

22 not reflect the wide range of uncertainty and the 

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1 capital costs of unproven technology.

2 Third is NSPS, while the effect of 

3 stalling CCS development in the United States, 

4 new coal-fired power plants are necessary to 

5 demonstrate advanced CCS technologies, which are 

6 expected to improve performance and reduce costs. 

7 New IGCC plants must be built to demonstrate CCS 

8 due to the limited number of IGCC's operating in 

9 the United States today.

10 Additionally, existing plants face a 

11 number of site-specific limitations for 

12 participating in a CCS demonstration project, 

13 including space on site, proximity to CO2 storage 

14 infrastructure, and the remaining useful life of 

15 the plant.

16 Simply put, because EPA's NSPS prevents 

17 operators from planning or building new coal 

18 power plants, no additional CCS demonstration 

19 projects can be developed at those facilities.

20 Fourth, EPA's reliance on demonstration 

21 projects in setting the standard is 

22 inappropriate. All the projects cited by EPA 

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1 have received significant federal subsidies, in 

2 addition to state and local incentives in many 

3 cases. Most importantly, none of these 

4 demonstration projects are currently operating in 

5 the United States. The remaining projects may 

6 still face challenges, moving forward.

7 As noted by others, Congress included 

8 specific provision in the Energy Policy Act to 

9 limit the type of reliance on demonstration 

10 projects found in this proposal.

11 Fifth and finally, EPA failed to consider 

12 the significant CO2 storage challenges. 

13 Conventional air pollutant control technologies 

14 can use on-site surface storage for pollution 

15 control byproducts. A CCS project must have CO2 

16 transportation and a long-term subsurface storage 

17 available at all times.

18 EPA assumes that CO2 storage will be 

19 available through EOR operations. EOR, however, 

20 is a regionally constrained CO2 storage option 

21 limited by geology, pipeline infrastructure, and 

22 regulatory uncertainty due to recently published 

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1 guidance documents.

2 Saline storage faces its own challenges, 

3 including a lack of permitting experience and a 

4 cost of long-term site monitoring.

5 I'm happy to answer any questions you may 

6 have at this time. And thank you for your 

7 attention.

8 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

9 The next two speakers are Ethan Spanner 

10 and Marty Hayden.

11 (Pause.)

12 MR. SPANNER: Thank you. My name is 

13 Ethan Spanner. I'm testifying today on behalf of 

14 the National Wildlife Federation, where I work on 

15 international climate change policy.

16 I would like to take this opportunity to 

17 describe how the new-source carbon pollution 

18 standards can support another goal within the 

19 President's Climate Action Plan, specifically the 

20 last section of the plan, entitled Leading 

21 Efforts to Address Climate Change through 

22 International Negotiations.

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1 Climate change is a global problem with 

2 global solutions, which is why we work together 

3 with other governments to find solutions through 

4 these international negotiations.

5 The United States has long been regarded 

6 as the villain, Public Enemy Number One, within 

7 international climate change negotiations, 

8 especially the multi-lateral negotiations that 

9 are held within the United Nations Framework 

10 Convention on Climate Change.

11 I was fortunate enough to attend the 

12 recent UN climate change negotiations in Warsaw, 

13 Poland, in late November. And I'm happy to 

14 report that scrutiny of U.S. efforts has begun to 

15 wane. When asked, most conference attendees 

16 pointed specifically to the President's Climate 

17 Action Plan, and even more specifically at 

18 stricter carbon pollution standards for both new 

19 and existing sources.

20 But this final section of the plan is not 

21 entitled "Improve our International Reputation 

22 with International Negotiations." It 

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1 specifically tasks the administration to lead in 

2 these negotiations.

3 And I'm here to tell you that it's not 

4 possible to lead within these international 

5 negotiations unless we have ambitious action on 

6 carbon pollution here at home. The new-source 

7 carbon pollution standards are a good first step 

8 in this process. This is important because we 

9 cannot fix climate change on our own; no country 

10 can. No country is an island.

11 Strong action by the United States will 

12 encourage other major emitters, such as the 

13 European Union and China, to adopt similarly 

14 ambitious rules. And we would get to be the 

15 trendsetter on this.

16 In terms of the negotiations themselves, 

17 signals right now suggest that the next global 

18 climate change agreement will largely take a 

19 bottom-up approach, meaning that domestic actions 

20 like the new-source carbon pollution standards 

21 will be used to fulfill commitments made within 

22 an international system.

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1 Strong standards are a good first step 

2 towards leading the world in fulfilling scalable 

3 and ambitious commitments. Thank you.

4 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

5 Mr. Hayden?

6 MR. HAYDEN: My name is Marty Hayden, and 

7 I'm the Vice President, Policy and Legislation, 

8 for Earthjustice. And I want to thank the EPA 

9 for moving forward with the centerpiece of 

10 President Obama's Climate Action Plan, namely the 

11 carbon pollution standards for new and existing 

12 power plants.

13 Power plants are the single largest 

14 source of domestic carbon pollution, and once 

15 built, a new plant can operate for 30, 40, or 

16 even 50 years. So, although cleaning up existing 

17 plants is the most important step we could take 

18 to reduce carbon emissions, standards for new 

19 plants are critical to ensure that we do not 

20 undermine progress that needs to be made on 

21 existing sources by allowing a proliferation of 

22 dirty new fuel plants.

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1 Adopting carbon emissions standards for 

2 power plants is not only necessary to achieve the 

3 President's climate goals, but it is legally 

4 required under the Clean Air Act. The EPA has 

5 already found that carbon pollution endangers 

6 public health and the environment. The Clean Air 

7 Act therefore requires EPA to just set standards 

8 to limit carbon pollution from new and existing 

9 power plants.

10 Opponents of the proposed standards 

11 suggest that they will spell the end of coal. 

12 However, EPA has correctly determined that there 

13 is technology available to reduce carbon 

14 emissions from coal plants. In any case, new 

15 coal plants are not being proposed because coal 

16 is not economically competitive with other fuels.

17 Historically, coal power has been 

18 artificially cheap because the industry has been 

19 allowed to shirk its responsibility to control 

20 deadly air pollution and toxic water and waste 

21 pollution. Now, just as the coal sector must 

22 install modern air and water pollution controls, 

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1 it must also rein in carbon pollution that is the 

2 single biggest driver of climate disruption in 

3 this country.

4 EPA cannot bend the rules to accommodate 

5 dirty coal plants. If utility companies want to 

6 build new coal plants, they need to employ the 

7 state-of-the-art technology to reduce carbon 

8 emissions, or elect to use a cleaner fuel.

9 Again, in the absence of any performance 

10 standards, market forces are already driving a 

11 wholesale shift away from coal to natural gas. 

12 That shift puts a premium on ensuring that newly 

13 constructed gas-fired plants are as clean as 

14 possible. And on that score, the proposed 

15 standards fail to meet the Clean Air Act's 

16 requirements.

17 The Act directs EPA to issue standards 

18 that drive innovation. To comply with the Act, 

19 those standards must reflect the best system of 

20 emission reduction that has been adequately 

21 demonstrated. But the best combined-cycle 

22 natural gas plants emit about 20 percent less CO2 

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1 than the EPA's proposed standards would allow.

2 EPA has proposed a standard that nearly 

3 all new gas plants already meet. The Clean Air 

4 Act does not allow EPA to rubberstamp what the 

5 industry is already doing. The Agency must 

6 strengthen the proposed standards for natural gas 

7 plants.

8 Because even a strong standard is of 

9 little value if it's full of loopholes, EPA's 

10 standards also need to be enforceable and include 

11 monitoring and reporting requirements to ensure 

12 compliance and transparency.

13 The nuts and bolts of those requirements 

14 are critical to achieving real-world carbon 

15 emission reductions. Although we welcome EPA's 

16 proposal to require direct monitoring of CO2 

17 emissions from solid-fuel-fired power plants, the 

18 proposal includes a seven-year compliance option 

19 for certain plants that raises significant 

20 enforceability concerns.

21 At a minimum, any extended compliance 

22 period needs to include milestones assuring that 

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1 facilities are on tract to meet the long-term 

2 standards.

3 The proposed rule would also make alleged 

4 malfunctions at covered plants an affirmative 

5 defense to a violation of the carbon emissions 

6 standards. Waiving emissions standards in this 

7 way is not allowed under the Clean Air Act, which 

8 requires its standards must apply continuously.

9 Further, such a broad exemption makes no 

10 sense at all in the context of the standard that 

11 contemplates compliance on an annual basis. 

12 Excess emissions that persist long enough to 

13 cause a power plant to be out of compliance for 

14 an entire year cannot be the result of accidental 

15 malfunctions. The American people can't trust 

16 polluters to police themselves. They count on 

17 the EPA to protect them from facilities that 

18 violate air pollution limits.

19 Finally, the EPA must complete these and 

20 the companion standards for existing power plants 

21 as soon as possible. Doing so is necessary to 

22 protect the public health, reduce the effects of 

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1 climate change, and spur innovation in new 

2 technologies. In his State of the Union address 

3 last week, the President called for urgency in 

4 acting to reduce carbon emissions, explaining 

5 that, "When our children's children look us in 

6 the eye and ask if we did all we could to leave 

7 them a safer, more stable world, with new sources 

8 of energy, I want us to be able to say, 'Yes, we 

9 did.'"

10 The more than 3 million comments that 

11 came in to support the carbon standards that the 

12 EPA proposed for new power plants in 2012 

13 strongly show that President Obama and the EPA 

14 are not alone in seeing the urgency of this issue 

15 and the vital role that these standards will play 

16 in reducing carbon emissions. Thank you.

17 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. Thank you both.

18 Our next speakers will be Todd Larsen and 

19 Derek Meyer.

20 Mr. Larsen?

21 MR. LARSEN: Thank you. Thank you for 

22 hosting this public hearing to receive comments 

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1 from Americans on this important issue of 

2 regulating greenhouse gas emissions from new 

3 power plants. My name is Todd Larsen, and I 

4 serve as the Corporate Responsibility Director of 

5 Green America, a national nonprofit organization 

6 with 170,000 individual members and 3,500 

7 business members nationwide.

8 Our green business network is the largest 

9 network of certified green businesses in the 

10 United States, and Green America is also a member 

11 of the American Sustainable Business Council, 

12 which represents over 150,000 businesses 

13 nationwide.

14 On behalf of our members, Green America 

15 strongly supports the EPA's new rules under its 

16 authority of the Clean Air Act to address carbon 

17 pollution from new power plants.

18 The proposed new limits will create a 

19 standard of environmental responsibility and lay 

20 the groundwork for encouraging innovation and 

21 investment in lower-carbon technologies, new 

22 energy infrastructure, and increased energy 

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1 efficiency. At the same time, the rules will 

2 create only negligible costs.

3 The need to regulate carbon from new 

4 power plants is clear. We're already 

5 experiencing the impacts of climate change, and 

6 those impacts will only increase. If we build 

7 highly polluting power plants, the increased 

8 carbon pollution will contribute to increased 

9 natural disasters, air pollution, and negative 

10 health impacts, as well as severely weaken the 

11 ecosystems.

12 The two groups that Green America 

13 represents, consumers and small to mid-sized 

14 businesses, will be hard hit. Consumers will 

15 face increased risks to their health and 

16 property, and rising costs of basic goods and 

17 services over time as climate change impacts 

18 important systems such as food, water, and 

19 infrastructure.

20 Lower-income Americans, those who can 

21 least afford it, will be the hardest hit. Recent 

22 polling shows that 70 percent of Americans want 

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1 the EPA to regulate emissions from power plants. 

2 The vast majority also support a shift to clean 

3 energy sources. Americans across the country and 

4 across political parties understand that we need 

5 to shift to clean energy sources to protect our 

6 lives and our economy.

7 Small business owners, America's Main 

8 Street businesses, will also be negatively 

9 affected by climate change. From disruptions on 

10 their supply chains to physical damage and 

11 destructions of their operations from 

12 increasingly extreme weather, small businesses 

13 are at a higher risk from rising greenhouse gas 

14 emissions.

15 That is why polling conducted by the 

16 American Sustainable Business Council found that 

17 63 percent of small business owners support EPA 

18 regulation of carbon emissions from power plants 

19 and 72 percent support incentives for clean 

20 energy.

21 EPA regulations of new power plants will 

22 also encourage greater innovations and clean 

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1 energy technologies, which will boost the 

2 economy, job creation, and small businesses 

3 nationwide.

4 Clean energy and energy efficiency jobs 

5 offer competitive pay and are stable. These 

6 technologies are revitalizing communities 

7 nationwide. They're also producing lower energy 

8 costs already. America needs more innovation to 

9 remain globally competitive, and regulating 

10 carbon will help lead to that innovation. These 

11 rules are an important first step in that carbon 

12 regulation.

13 For all of the above reasons, Green 

14 America and its members support the EPA's carbon 

15 pollution standards for new power plants. Thank 

16 you.

17 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

18 MR. MEYER: Good afternoon. My name is 

19 Derek Meyer, and I'm here today as a concerned 

20 citizen and as a volunteer with the Sierra Club.

21 One thing that I saw a very big impact 

22 from was the closure of a coal plant in my 

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1 hometown of Alexandria, Virginia, the Potomac 

2 River Coal Plant, often referred to as the Mirant 

3 Plant from when that was the company. And we saw 

4 significant increases in health and wellbeing 

5 based on the closure of that plant, and this took 

6 over a decade to happen.

7 My thinking is that, as people have said 

8 before, we can't trust many of the existing plant 

9 owners and operators to police themselves. And 

10 it's incumbent on the EPA to provide that 

11 mechanism.

12 I also want to respond briefly to some of 

13 the comments by the gentleman earlier from 

14 Minnesota, representing small utilities. One of 

15 his comments was that wind as a source of energy 

16 is unreliable. And there was a presentation that 

17 I attended about a year ago by Dr. Willett 

18 Kempton -- and I'll spell that for the record -- 

19 that's W-i-l-l-e-t-t, last name K-e-m-p-t-o-n, of 

20 the University of Delaware.

21 And the main argument of his presentation 

22 was that a distributed network of renewable 

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1 sources can provide for the lion's share of this 

2 nation's and potentially the world's energy 

3 needs. And that is something that I support as 

4 an end goal, that many of the people that I know 

5 do as well, through the Sierra Club and other 

6 groups, and what I think is a must in order to 

7 achieve this.

8 So, the reason I bring that up is that, 

9 as we're transitioning, number one, we need 

10 stringent requirements on new coal plants and 

11 companion rules on existing coal plants, because 

12 as people have said, coal is not the most 

13 economically viable choice right now.

14 We also need stringent rules on natural 

15 gas plants, because despite many people, 

16 including the President, touting it as a bridge 

17 fuel, it is also a significant contributor to 

18 carbon emissions. And we need to be moving away 

19 from that. And calling it a bridge fuel, I 

20 believe, will give it too long of a time in place 

21 and putting out those emissions that we can't 

22 afford.

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1 So, as we transition, and the other point 

2 I wanted to make is that, from that gentleman's 

3 region of Minnesota, right across the state line 

4 in Wisconsin, Dominion Resources had to close a 

5 nuclear plant -- granted, an old and not very 

6 efficient one -- because that couldn't compete 

7 from wind.

8 So, as I'm sure your research has shown, 

9 renewables are making an impact, certainly, 

10 economically. And I believe they can be the 

11 future, and we have to move toward that future 

12 quickly and have restrictions that show it.

13 Thank you very much.

14 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both, gentlemen.

15 Our next two speakers will be Daniel 

16 Hubbell and Mark Shiveley (phonetic).

17 (Pause.)

18 MR. HAEUBER: Daniel Hubbell?

19 MR. HUBBELL: Yes.

20 MR. HAEUBER: Is Mark Shiveley in the 

21 room?

22 (Pause.)

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1 MR. HAEUBER: Mr. Hubbell, you're on your 

2 own.

3 MR. HUBBELL: All right. Well, I'll try 

4 and soldier on.

5 MR. HAEUBER: Okay.

6 MR. HUBBELL: Hello. My name is Daniel 

7 Hubbell, and I work on water issues for the 

8 National Wildlife Federation.

9 When I was growing up in Massachusetts, 

10 my family used to go camping every year in Maine. 

11 It's sort of an annual tradition we always held 

12 to, regardless of what I thought of it as a young

13 kid. And every year, we would go up, and 

14 sometimes, during the summer, the mosquitoes 

15 would be out in force. And I always felt like I 

16 was being eaten alive. They seemed to take full 

17 advantage of me at every opportunity, and it made 

18 for a miserable weekend.

19 It's a feeling I think I share a little 

20 bit with the thick-billed murre, which is a 

21 creature that lives in Northern Canada. Every 

22 year, the murre comes to a certain set of islands 

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1 to nest. And scientists, when they were 

2 examining the murre, discovered that some of them 

3 were feeling the bite from the mosquitoes as 

4 well, as in literally thousands of bites.

5 They had found some murres had literally 

6 died from blood loss by mosquitoes. They were 

7 nesting at the time, and so they couldn't leave 

8 or move. They would literally get eaten to 

9 death.

10 The problems don't just end there. Food 

11 is harder to find, and they even have to worry 

12 about polar bears sneaking up and eating their 

13 eggs, as the bears have less sea ice to use to 

14 find their own, other sources of food. It's not 

15 a good time to be an arctic sea bird is what I'm 

16 saying.

17 Would that they were the only species 

18 suffering this way. But it is sadly far from the 

19 case. Bird species are harder to find, and 

20 longer rainstorms have literally drowned iconic 

21 creatures, like the peregrine falcons, in their 

22 nests.

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1 Nor is it confined to the Arctic. All 

2 the way to the other end of the pole, we can 

3 find, just off the coast of Argentina, on the 

4 very, very tip of what we would regard as still 

5 habitable for most creatures, the Magellanic 

6 penguin is suffering as well. At just 25 days 

7 old during the rainy seasons, penguin chicks are 

8 too young to stay with the right kind of feather 

9 that will allow them to avoid moisture clinging 

10 to their skin. They're also too large to hide 

11 under their parents for warmth.

12 So when the rains come, if they come hard 

13 and often as they have been for the past few 

14 years, the penguin chicks will have the rain 

15 cling to their feathers, and they will die of 

16 hypothermia.

17 Nor is this the only problem, 

18 unfortunately. If the rain is not going to get 

19 them, then the heat will. Hot days will cause 

20 the penguins to literally die of heat stroke, as 

21 they cannot swim fast enough in the water or for 

22 long periods to cool off.

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1 From pole to pole, birds are suffering 

2 from climate change. Apart from the tragedy this 

3 means for the birds, why is it important to the 

4 rest of us? Well, forgive the phrase, but these 

5 are the canaries in the coal mine. At the 

6 harshest extremities of our earth, all of our 

7 vulnerable populations are being devastated by a 

8 rapid shift that climate change brings on.

9 It's not just the extreme weather, the 

10 rising sea levels, or anything else that gives us 

11 cause for concern. It is the subtle shift in 

12 what is the normal activities in everyday life 

13 that is going to pose a serious challenge to 

14 every creature on this planet.

15 I welcome the idea of a new rule on new16 source pollutions from power plants that the EPA 

17 is proposing. I hope that we can push for the 

18 highest possible standard to protect birds on 

19 every pole and all other creatures in between. 

20 We cannot simply wait for industry to take the 

21 steps we need to ensure that there is a cleaner, 

22 better future for all creatures on this planet. 

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1 We must push for the highest standards now.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

4 (Pause.)

5 MR. HAEUBER: Okay. Dan Byers?

6 Mr. Byers, you're solo as well.

7 MR. BYERS: All right. Thank you for the 

8 opportunity to present comments. My name is Dan 

9 Byers. I'm Senior Policy Director at the U.S. 

10 Chamber of Commerce Institute for 21st Century 

11 Energy.

12 My complete written statement, which will 

13 be submitted for the hearing record, highlights 

14 numerous concerns with the proposed new-source 

15 performance standard for power plants. I'll 

16 focus my remarks primarily on two of those, 

17 technological readiness, and the potential impact 

18 on electricity affordability and reliability.

19 The Clean Air Act provides very clear 

20 direction to EPA with respect to technological 

21 mandates, requiring that regulatory performance 

22 standards be based on what is achievable by the, 

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1 quote, "best system of emission reduction" that 

2 has been, quote, "adequately demonstrated."

3 It is here that EPA has embarked on a 

4 fundamental overreach, mandating that new coal5 fired power plants employ carbon capture and 

6 sequestration systems as a prerequisite for their 

7 construction. As the Chamber stated in response 

8 to this proposal last fall, EPA's designation of 

9 CCS as the best system for compliance under the 

10 rule amounts to little more than a regulatory 

11 euphemism for what is plainly a ban on the 

12 construction of coal-fired power plants.

13 This is because CCS as an integrated 

14 technology has never been demonstrated on a 

15 commercial power plant and is nowhere near ready 

16 for broad deployment. The record in support of 

17 this conclusion is extensive.

18 To cite just a couple examples, prior to 

19 releasing the current proposal, the Office of 

20 Management and Budget gave federal agencies an 

21 opportunity to provide feedback on the draft 

22 NSPS. Numerous comments submitted through the 

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1 process were highly critical of EPA's proposal 

2 and, in particular, the readiness of CCS.

3 One agency commented that, quote, "EPA's 

4 assertion of the technical feasibility of carbon 

5 capture relies heavily on literature reviews, 

6 pilot projects, and commercial facilities yet to 

7 operate." We believe this cannot form the basis 

8 of a finding that CCS on commercial-scale power 

9 plants is, quote, "adequately demonstrated."

10 Federal agency commenters also noted 

11 that, "By only looking at a couple of examples, 

12 EPA is understating the overwhelming costs and 

13 risk factors that have forced previous 

14 government-supported CCS projects to be de15 scoped, tabled, or shut down."

16 The CCS technologies program at MIT 

17 maintains a database of commercialization 

18 progress around the world. Of 55 power projects 

19 tracked, none are operational and only 2 have 

20 entered the construction phase. The remaining 

21 projects are in the planning stages, 24 of them; 

22 on hold or dormant, 9; or have been cancelled, 

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1 20.

2 In light of the high failure rate and 

3 extremely limited progress among similar projects 

4 around the world, EPA's presumption that those 

5 planned and under construction will be 

6 successfully completed and commercialized is 

7 highly questionable.

8 As it reviews comments and considers 

9 modifications to the proposed rule, EPA should 

10 acknowledge the widely held consensus that CCS 

11 has not been adequately demonstrated and revise 

12 the rule accordingly to ensure any technology 

13 mandates are achievable on a commercial scale and 

14 at reasonable cost.

15 Another area of serious concern is EPA's 

16 assertion that the cost, benefits, and CO2 

17 emissions changes associated with this regulation 

18 are negligible. Setting aside the obvious 

19 question of why the Agency would want to design a 

20 rule that has no benefits, EPA's conclusion that 

21 no costs are involved rests on the assumption 

22 that coal-fired power plants will not be built 

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1 even in the absence of a rule.

2 Energy forecasting is a particularly 

3 perilous exercise, and if this projection proves 

4 to be wrong, which history tells us is certainly 

5 plausible, then the rule's cost would skyrocket 

6 because it would prevent construction of 

7 otherwise economical coal-powered power.

8 In addition to the direct electricity 

9 affordability costs of such a situation, over 

10 time the increasing lack of base-load electricity 

11 diversity will threaten reliability and 

12 unnecessarily limit risk management tools 

13 available to power generators.

14 As seen during the recent winter cold 

15 snaps, coal plants slated for closure have been 

16 absolutely essential in meeting soaring

17 electricity demand. Taking a major energy source 

18 off the table with respect to meeting future 

19 energy needs is extremely risky. Before 

20 finalizing the rule, EPA should work with FERC 

21 and other experts to analyze its potential long22 term impacts on reliability and affordability.

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1 Addressing these straightforward concerns 

2 and priorities will go a long way toward ensuring 

3 a better outcome to this rule and those rules 

4 that will follow as part of the Agency's broader 

5 greenhouse gas regulatory agenda. Thank you.

6 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

7 So we'll have a break for a few minutes 

8 until more speakers sign up.

9 (Whereupon, at 2:42 p.m., a recess was 

10 taken, to reconvene at 2:55 p.m.)

11 MR. HAEUBER: Is there a Mark Shiveley in 

12 the room?

13 (Pause.)

14 MR. HAEUBER: Oh, so he already spoke in 

15 the other room. Great. Excellent. Okay. 

16 So I think we'll get started again. 

17 We've got a couple of more folks who have signed 

18 up to speak. Katie Huffling and Luke Michaelson.

19 So, you guys just come in the door.

20 Great. So, Ms. Huffling.

21 MS. HUFFLING: Thank you. Good 

22 afternoon, and thank you for this opportunity to 

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1 comment on this important issue. My name is 

2 Katie Huffling, and I live in Mount Rainier, 

3 Maryland, and I'm here today representing the 

4 Alliance of Nurses for Healthy Environments.

5 We would like to express our strong 

6 support for the standards to limit carbon 

7 emissions from new power plants. As a nurse8 midwife, my goal is to help women and families 

9 have the healthiest pregnancies and the 

10 healthiest babies possible.

11 Unfortunately, air pollution and rising 

12 global temperatures are increasingly being shown 

13 to have significant impacts on the health of 

14 pregnant women and infants, who are two of our 

15 most vulnerable populations. As temperatures 

16 rise, we are likely to see more frequent and 

17 severe heat waves, heavier rainstorms and 

18 flooding, and increased air pollution, all of 

19 which present health challenges for vulnerable 

20 populations.

21 In the Baltimore and Washington, D.C., 

22 regions, we have some of the most polluted air in 

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1 the country and some of the highest numbers of 

2 poor-air-quality days, which the smog levels are 

3 so high that even healthy adults may have 

4 difficulty breathing when they're outside.

5 I've seen firsthand how on poor-air6 quality days, they can have a significant health 

7 impact on pregnant women. Many times, my 

8 asthmatic patients would come into my office 

9 wheezing or report having to use their inhalers 

10 more often on poor-air-quality days, especially 

11 during the summer when you're more likely to have 

12 higher levels of air pollution.

13 Having good control of asthma is an 

14 essential part of a healthy pregnancy, as the 

15 mother's breaths are the baby's only source of 

16 oxygen. We caution pregnant women to stay inside 

17 on poor-air-quality days, as exposure to air 

18 pollution has been linked to poor pregnancy 

19 outcomes such as low birth weight and 

20 exacerbation of asthma and lung irritation.

21 However, most women cannot put their 

22 lives on hold when there's poor-air-quality days. 

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1 For many women, they have to go to work. They go 

2 to school, to prenatal appointments to see me. 

3 And especially in urban environments, they may 

4 rely on public transportation, where they're 

5 having to take the metro or stand on the corner 

6 of the street, waiting for the bus, breathing in 

7 unacceptably high levels of air pollution.

8 Air pollution and increased temperatures 

9 have also been associated with pre-term birth. 

10 In a study of over 60,000 births in California, 

11 increased temperatures were found to be 

12 significantly associated with pre-term birth, 

13 regardless of maternal age, education, maternal 

14 ethnic and racial groups, or the sex of the 

15 infant.

16 Pre-term birth can have a significant 

17 lifelong impact for these infants. These 

18 children face respiratory, neurological and 

19 digestive problems soon after birth, and they can 

20 have developmental and learning issues throughout 

21 their childhood.

22 These can all cause a significant amount 

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1 of suffering for both children and their 

2 families. For children born prematurely, the 

3 health care costs over the first year of life is 

4 10 times those of an infant born at term.

5 Besides issues of prematurity and low 

6 birth weight, we're seeing long-term changes in 

7 the lungs of children whose mothers were exposed 

8 to high levels of air pollution while they were 

9 pregnant. And these changes can lead to 

10 increased risks of asthma and decreased lung 

11 function as the children age.

12 Children born to asthmatic mothers who 

13 were exposed to increased levels of air pollution 

14 during their pregnancy have an increased risk of 

15 wheezing and difficult breathing at ozone levels 

16 at or near the current ozone standards.

17 Besides the burden of treatment this 

18 places on our health care system, we must also 

19 take into account the financial burden placed on 

20 parents of asthmatic children through days lost 

21 of work and school, as well as the emotional toll 

22 that that places on a family when managing a 

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1 chronic disease.

2 The EPA is mandated to protect the health 

3 of all Americans. I ask that the EPA move to

4 quickly finalize and implement limits on carbon 

5 emissions from new power plants. Clean air is 

6 vital to healthy women and healthy babies. And 

7 isn't that what all of us should be working for?

8 Thank you.

9 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

10 Mr. Michaelson?

11 MR. MICHAELSON: Thank you. Good 

12 afternoon, and thank you for providing this 

13 opportunity to comment on carbon pollution 

14 standards. My name is Luke Michaelson, and I 

15 live in Catonsville, Maryland, which is located 

16 near Baltimore City. I'm here representing the 

17 Alliance of Nurses for Healthy Environments.

18 And we implore the EPA to enact strong 

19 carbon pollution standards for new and existing 

20 power plants.

21 Now, as a triage nurse in the emergency 

22 department, I had witnessed many young and old 

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1 family members requiring breathing help. I 

2 recall during one hot summer, we had two 

3 ambulances bring in children no older than 12. 

4 Their friends said that they were running and 

5 then simply stopped playing and collapsed. In 

6 both cases, by the time the paramedics brought 

7 them to the emergency department, they could not 

8 be resuscitated and both had died.

9 Baltimore has some of the most polluted 

10 air, and there's little doubt that carbon kills.

11 Current pollution adds to the devastating 

12 effects of climate change. Conditions can only 

13 get better if responsible men and women limit the 

14 amount of carbon entering our environment. In 

15 fact, reasonable people must conclude that we 

16 limit carbon emissions.

17 Limiting climate change saves lives and 

18 helps the national economy. Natural disasters

19 such as Hurricane Katrina and Super-Typhoon 

20 Haiyan will be more common, and we will be the 

21 people to blame when the public asks, "What could 

22 we have done?" In short, carbon kills.

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1 Enact laws now that limit our dependence 

2 on fossil-fuel technology, especially the archaic 

3 practice of burning coal. Coal is essentially 

4 compressed wood. Neanderthals burned wood for 

5 their use. I would hope that, after 125,000 

6 years, we could surpass our Neanderthal cousins 

7 and adopt another fuel source besides burning 

8 coal. Well, apparently not.

9 But anyway, new regulations on existing 

10 and future coal power plants will continue to 

11 spur economic growth in renewable energy 

12 technologies such as wind and solar. These 

13 energy sectors will be resilient against boom14 and-bust cycles inherent within the current 

15 fossil-fuel economy.

16 Many times, after the coal, oil, or 

17 natural gas becomes too difficult to remove, your 

18 friends, colleagues, daughters, and sons lose 

19 their way of life and their community dies. 

20 Again, carbon kills.

21 It is time for the EPA to protect the 

22 national security, the American economy, and the 

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1 nation's health. After the EPA quickly finalizes 

2 the limits on carbon emissions from new power 

3 plants, the American people will support more 

4 restrictions on current power plants and other 

5 sources of carbon pollution, such as hydraulic 

6 fracturing.

7 Eventually, I hope, during my lifetime, 

8 our nation eventually kills carbon. And it can 

9 be, again, here. Thank you.

10 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

11 Okay. Our next two speakers are Derf 

12 Johnson and Joanne Spalding.

13 Mr. Johnson?

14 MR. JOHNSON: Good afternoon, and thank 

15 you for the opportunity to testify today. My 

16 name is Derf Johnson, and I'm from Montana. I'm 

17 here today representing the Montana Environmental 

18 Information Center. For over 40 years, MEIC has 

19 been advocating for the protection and 

20 restoration of Montana's natural environment. We 

21 have over 5,000 members in Montana and throughout 

22 the country who support MEIC, both as members and 

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1 with their engagement.

2 We are pleased to offer our support for 

3 the first-ever national standards for carbon 

4 pollution. While we don't view the rules as 

5 perfect, we view them as an essential first step 

6 in addressing the climate crisis and a movement 

7 towards are more sustainable energy future.

8 We can no longer ignore the climate 

9 crisis. The citizens of Montana are becoming 

10 more and more aware of the dramatic impacts 

11 associated with climate change. Many of these 

12 impacts are now affecting our economy and our way 

13 of life. We are now experiencing a much higher 

14 prevalence of more intense and more dangerous 

15 wildfires.

16 While many of us accept that these are a 

17 natural regimen and that there is a necessary 

18 part of the ecosystems, the scale and the 

19 frequency and the intensity of these fires has 

20 increased and impacted our emergency funds, our 

21 public safety, and our air quality.

22 It's now a regular summer occurrence for 

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1 me and for my family to experience days when 

2 smoke from wildfires chokes our valleys in a 

3 thick haze. Smoke degrades our air quality and 

4 impacts our ability to enjoy our time outdoors, 

5 which is an essential part of why we live in 

6 Montana.

7 Drought years are becoming more frequent. 

8 In an arid state like Montana, water is a vital 

9 part of our economy. Less water impacts our 

10 agricultural industry, our recreation industry, 

11 our water supply, and our communities. Less snow 

12 pack is leading to drier summers and lower summer 

13 flows in our rivers and streams. The decrease in 

14 our snow pack is now a very noticeable occurrence 

15 for many Montanans, including our skiers and our 

16 outdoor recreationists, our farmers and our 

17 ranchers.

18 Missoula, Montana, home of the University 

19 of Montana, where I happened to attend law 

20 school, and the setting of Norman Maclean's "The 

21 River Runs Through It," is predicted to be snow22 free by 2050. A decrease in water levels has 

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1 impacted our fisheries, our wildlife, and the 

2 outdoorsmen and outdoorswomen who depend upon 

3 them.

4 Sixteen years -- that's the most 

5 conservative science that predicts Glacier 

6 National Park will be glacier-free. As a place 

7 very near and dear to my heart, and by 2030 

8 there's not going to be any glaciers left in 

9 Glacier National Park.

10 We'd like to emphasize that, while the 

11 proposed standards are a very first step forward 

12 in setting a baseline, in many regards they are 

13 bringing federal standards up to what is already 

14 occurring in the energy market. We are seeing a 

15 major and unprecedented shift in the United 

16 States away from carbon-intense fuels.

17 Montana is not unique. We are part of 

18 this shift. No new coal plants have been 

19 constructed in Montana since 2006, and none are 

20 proposed. One of the coal plants in the banks of 

21 the Yellowstone River is slated for eventual 

22 retirement, while our state's largest utility 

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1 recently declined to purchase additional shares 

2 of our largest coal plant, citing serious 

3 environmental and financial risk.

4 Meanwhile, Montana has seen extraordinary 

5 growth in the renewable energy sector. Montana 

6 has a renewable energy standard that requires 15 

7 percent of the energy needs of publicly regulated 

8 utilities derive their energy from renewable 

9 sources. This standard has already been met. 

10 Since 2005, Montana's installed wind capacity has 

11 jumped from 2 megawatts to 645 megawatts, and 

12 there are now 18 wind projects in Montana that 

13 deliver power to Montana and the region.

14 The potential for further energy 

15 development in Montana is astounding. There's 

16 enough wind power potential in Montana to provide 

17 the electricity needs of our state 70 times over, 

18 and to supply the entire United States with 29 

19 percent of its electricity needs.

20 Montana's wind power potential is also 

21 unique in that it complements the power needs of 

22 the population centers in the Pacific Northwest, 

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1 and that the wind blows strong in Montana when it 

2 slows in Oregon and Washington, providing a more 

3 consistent and a less variable source of energy.

4 Furthermore, the standards proposed by 

5 the Environmental Protection Agency are roughly 

6 comparable to what Montana already requires. In 

7 2007, Montana recognized the necessity for 

8 reducing carbon pollution.

9 Our legislature passed and our Governor, 

10 Brian Schweitzer, signed MCA 69-8-421, which has 

11 required that any power-generating facility that 

12 seeks approval for acquisition by the Montana 

13 Public Service Commission must demonstrate that 

14 they can capture 50 percent of their carbon 

15 dioxide emissions. This law passed with 

16 bipartisan support.

17 I appreciate the opportunity to offer 

18 testimony this afternoon and again would like to 

19 offer our support for the rules. We are happy 

20 that the administration and the Environmental 

21 Protection Agency are moving forward in 

22 addressing the issue of climate and recognizing 

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1 the amazing opportunities for prosperity in the 

2 clean energy sector. Thank you.

3 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, sir.

4 Ms. Spalding?

5 MS. SPALDING: Good afternoon. My name 

6 is Joanne Spalding. I'm a senior managing 

7 attorney at the Sierra Club. I am speaking on 

8 behalf of the Sierra Club and its 1.2 million 

9 members and supporters.

10 We want to thank EPA for moving forward 

11 with this historic and critical rule. We greatly 

12 appreciate the stringent standard for new coal 

13 plants. We think it is appropriate to preclude 

14 nineteenth-century technology by means of a 

15 standard that is designed to be technology16 forcing in the twenty-first century.

17 We also appreciate that the rule covers 

18 natural gas plants as well. We will be 

19 submitting extensive written legal and technical 

20 comments on the rule; I will not be covering the 

21 whole waterfront. I will be focusing my comments 

22 primarily on the standard for gas plants, because 

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1 we believe that one of the places that the rule 

2 can really be improved is enhancing the way that 

3 it treats gas plants so that the standard is 

4 actually meaningful and gets meaningful 

5 reductions.

6 There's the -- EPA has proposed a 

7 standard that nearly all new combined-cycle gas 

8 plants can meet. This is not a technology9 forcing standard. It is -- the best combined10 cycle units today can consistently achieve limits 

11 lower than 800 pounds per megawatt hour, whereas 

12 the standard proposes 1,000 pounds per megawatt 

13 hour.

14 In our comments on the 2012 proposal, we 

15 advocated a standard of 825 to 850 for most 

16 natural gas plants. We realize that smaller 

17 units might need a separate standard, but 1,100 

18 pounds per megawatt hour is too high for those. 

19 We will be submitting significant additional 

20 analysis in our written comments on this 

21 proposal, in addition to what we submitted last 

22 time around, to demonstrate that a much lower 

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1 standard is achievable for gas plants.

2 It's the best system of emissions 

3 reduction. A standard that relies only on 

4 combined-cycle gas plants is not the best system 

5 of emissions reduction. It needs to rely on the 

6 best of the combined-cycle gas plants.

7 A second improvement we would like to see 

8 is that the standard is -- there is a standard, 

9 whether it's the same standard or different 

10 standards, that cover all units, including those 

11 that operate less than -- at 33 percent capacity 

12 factor. We are concerned that the definition --

13 that the sources covered by excluding those units 

14 that operate less frequently, there's a big chunk 

15 of emissions that the rule does not get at.

16 Again, that doesn't necessarily need to 

17 be same standard. But there's a significant 

18 amount of carbon pollution coming from plants, 

19 both coal and gas, that operate at less than 33 

20 percent capacity factor.

21 We believe it's important to cover all 

22 new sources. And that will lay the groundwork 

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1 and establish a structure so that when it comes 

2 time to regulate existing sources, the whole --

3 all of the units are covered under this rule, 

4 whether they're covered by a separate coal and 

5 gas standard, a combined standard, or, you know, 

6 a standard that is divided by size of the unit or 

7 by capacity factor.

8 And we will have some suggestions on that 

9 in our written comments. But we believe that 

10 it's important to cover all sources.

11 Thank you for the opportunity to comment 

12 on this rule, and we really appreciate EPA moving 

13 forward with this historic regulation.

14 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you very much, both 

15 of you.

16 So I think we're going to take a break 

17 for a few more minutes while we wait for more 

18 folks who have signed up.

19 We remind everybody, if you want to speak 

20 for five minutes, you can sign up at the 

21 registration desk out in the lobby. So.

22 (Whereupon, at 3:08 p.m., a brief recess 

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1 was taken, to reconvene at 3:19 p.m.)

2 MR. HAEUBER: Okay. So, I think we have 

3 a few more folks who would like to speak. So I 

4 think we're going to start back up again.

5 The next two speakers are Jerry Stewart 

6 and Alison Fisher.

7 (Pause.)

8 MR. HAEUBER: Is there an Alison Fisher 

9 in the room? Okay. 

10 Well, Mr. Stewart, why don't you go 

11 ahead, and we'll see if Ms. Stewart shows up?

12 MR. STEWART: Okay. 

13 MR. HAEUBER: Well, I guess I can --

14 yeah, I can do that.

15 (Pause.)

16 MR. STEWART: Okay. Thank you for giving 

17 me the opportunity to speak today. My name is 

18 Jerry Stewart, from Aldie, Virginia. I'm here in 

19 my capacity as a teacher in training and a member 

20 of 350 Loudon, a climate action group in Loudon 

21 County, Virginia, whose mission it is to 

22 safeguard the health and happiness of present and 

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1 future generations from the negative impacts of 

2 climate pollution and carbon emissions.

3 I'm not an expert, but am an informed 

4 citizen and a reader of science. From an early 

5 age, my dream has been to become a teacher. Over 

6 the last few years, as I've come to understand 

7 the climate crisis, I've begun to doubt that 

8 becoming a teacher is the best thing someone can 

9 do for our children.

10 With climate change set on track to 

11 increase world poverty, exacerbate geopolitical 

12 conflicts, and unjustly lead to hardship, pain, 

13 and suffering among the world's most vulnerable, 

14 it became clear to me that I can no longer follow 

15 my dreams as I had envisioned them, but must 

16 instead act to help our species collectively 

17 mitigate the degradation of earth's life systems.

18 That is why this year I've decided to 

19 leave my master's program and join hundreds of 

20 other Americans in the largest coast-to-coast 

21 march in U.S. history, the Great March for 

22 Climate Action. We will be marching 3,000 miles, 

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1 from L.A. to D.C., to motivate citizens and 

2 elected representatives to act on climate change.

3 This march is a symbolic walk away from a 

4 fossil-fuel economy to a more sustainable one. 

5 For the EPA to impose strict regulations on 

6 industry to prevent them from using our 

7 atmosphere as an open sewer is to help usher in a 

8 fossil-free world.

9 A few weeks ago, I found myself standing 

10 knee-deep in the Potomac River with a few friends 

11 and hundreds of other activists to raise money 

12 for the Chesapeake Climate Action Network. 

13 Reverend Yearwood, President of the Hip Hop 

14 Caucus, spoke to us. He said the climate crisis 

15 is the lunch-counter moment of our time. Whereas 

16 Martin Luther King, Jr., worked for equality, 

17 today we work for our existence, he said.

18 We will be chanting, "Fossil-free at 

19 last! Fossil-free at last! Thank God Almighty, 

20 we're fossil-free at last!"

21 You have the grass-roots support. Follow 

22 the ark of justice. We're pushing for this new 

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1 fossil-free world. Thank you for allowing me to 

2 speak today.

3 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

4 Ms. Fisher?

5 MS. FISHER: Can you hear me okay? Oh, 

6 great.

7 Good afternoon. My name is Alison 

8 Fisher. I'm the Outreach Director for Public 

9 Citizens Energy Program. Public Citizens, if 

10 you're not familiar, is a national consumer 

11 advocacy organization. We have over 300,000 

12 members and supporters nationwide. And on behalf 

13 of our members and myself, I just want to thank 

14 you for the opportunity to comment today on the 

15 Agency's proposed carbon pollution standards for 

16 new power plants.

17 Public Citizens strongly supports EPA's 

18 authority to regulate carbon pollution from new 

19 and existing power plants. And we'll be 

20 submitting our full technical comments on the 

21 proposed rule in writing. So today, in the brief 

22 time that we have, this five minutes, I'm going 

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1 to share input provided directly from our 

2 membership.

3 Two weeks ago, we asked our members to 

4 sign a petition demonstrating their support for 

5 EPA authority to limit harmful pollution from 

6 power plants. And in addition to endorsing your 

7 authority, many of our members provided 

8 additional comments on the process. And I want 

9 to share some of them with you now. And of 

10 course, I'll submit all of them to you for your 

11 records.

12 As I read over the comments, there were 

13 several themes that immediately began to emerge. 

14 Several of our members pointed out that industry 

15 has always pushed back against regulation under 

16 the Clean Air Act, often, as the fossil-fuel 

17 industry is doing now, predicting the economic 

18 devastation is going to result from regulations 

19 that are intended and designed to protect the 

20 American people and the air that we breathe.

21 So, for example, Diane Radovish, one of 

22 our members from Florida, wrote, quote, "Industry 

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1 will always balk when they're asked to upgrade 

2 facilities. Remember the uproar over switching 

3 to unleaded gas. Think of all the good done by 

4 that one change, and move forward with 

5 limitations on power plants," end quote.

6 And I would add to this point. In the 

7 '70s, lobbyists warned that using the Clean Air 

8 Act to phase in catalytic converters for new cars 

9 and trucks would cause, quote, "entire industries 

10 to collapse." Instead of that happening, the 

11 requirement ushered a new global market for 

12 catalytic converters, with American manufacturers 

13 at the center of that global market.

14 Many of our members expressed their 

15 desire and impatience for the United States to 

16 lead, or at least catch up, with the global clean 

17 energy revolution. Sheila Collins, one of our 

18 members from Texas, urges, "Please reduce the 

19 pollution in our atmosphere. America should be a 

20 leader in the world in moving to clean energy."

21 Too many of our members told of the 

22 impact dirty air is having on their health and 

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1 the health of their loved ones. Peggy Malnati of 

2 Michigan, another one of our members, quote, "I 

3 have family members with bad asthma and 

4 allergies. So limiting particulate matter is 

5 really important to ensure they breathe better 

6 and rely less on medications."

7 And in fact, we know that existing clean 

8 air protections have added up to trillions of 

9 dollars in health benefits to our nation. 

10 Cleaner air keeps people from needing expensive 

11 treatments and costly hospital stays, while at 

12 the same time keeping our children in their 

13 schools and our workers on the job, increasing 

14 both productivity and economic potential. And we 

15 can do even better with limiting carbon 

16 pollution.

17 Another member, David Archer, of 

18 California, reminds us that we're already 

19 experiencing the consequences of our dirty energy 

20 choices. He writes, quote, "I live in 

21 California, and we're experiencing a severe 

22 drought related to climate change. I want carbon 

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1 emissions of all types strictly controlled and 

2 completely eliminated, where possible." I just 

3 heard that it looks like 17 rural communities in 

4 California are going to be without water for the 

5 next 60 to 100 days.

6 Many of our members rightly noted that 

7 corporate interest has for too long taken 

8 precedent over public interests. One of our 

9 members from Georgia, Joyce Skolte, comments, 

10 "The health of people is more important than the 

11 health of the corporate bottom line. It is your 

12 job to protect the welfare of our nation's 

13 citizens, not the fossil-fuel industry's profit 

14 margin."

15 And Mark McKennon, of New York, writes, 

16 "I support the limits that will keep coal-fired 

17 and dirty power plants from polluting our air, 

18 land, and water. I would take any guess that the 

19 so-called dire harm that EPA regulations would do 

20 to our economy -- this is the rhetoric of the 

21 fossil-fuel industry -- is dwarfed by the 

22 medical, social, and environmental cost imposed 

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1 every year by these industries and facilities, on 

2 every human, animal, and landscape year after 

3 year.

4 "It's time they became responsible 

5 corporate citizens. I don't throw my trash on 

6 the sidewalk. They should not insist on 

7 disposing of it in the atmosphere."

8 Many appealed to a sense of urgency and 

9 an immediate need for climate action. Michael 

10 Wenger of Oregon, another one of our members, I 

11 think put it well when he said, "The government 

12 needs to act to protect the public interest and 

13 the health and safety of our citizens, and the 

14 sustainability of our planet.

15 "This is a critical issue that must be 

16 addressed, and it is the responsibility of the 

17 EPA to establish a policy that guides us towards 

18 a viable future. The fossil-fuel industry 

19 appears willing to stampede humanity over the 

20 brink in pursuit of profits. Our children 

21 deserve a better fate."

22 And while many talked of a hopeful future 

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1 if we take action now, or a bleak one if we 

2 don't, more than one noted that coal is the 

3 resource of our past and needs to replaced by a 

4 clean, safe, and sustainable future.

5 Thank you, and I hope that you'll take 

6 into consideration the comments of our members. 

7 And as I mentioned, we'll be submitting our 

8 technical comments on the rule in writing. Thank 

9 you.

10 MR. HAEUBER: Great. Thank you very 

11 much, both.

12 Our next two speakers, Nadia Luhr, and 

13 Anna Jane join her.

14 (Pause.)

15 MS. LUHR: Good afternoon, and thank you 

16 for the opportunity to speak today. My name is 

17 Nadia Luhr, and I am a policy analyst with the 

18 North Carolina Conservation Network. I'm here on 

19 behalf of my organization. It is a nonprofit 

20 with a network of more than 90 environmental 

21 organizations throughout the State of North 

22 Carolina.

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1 Our affiliate groups work on issues 

2 ranging the full spectrum of the environmental 

3 community. But while their interests vary, they 

4 all advocate for protection of the environment 

5 and protection of the public health.

6 And so, the North Carolina Conservation 

7 Network commends the EPA for moving forward and 

8 proposing regulations setting carbon emissions 

9 standards for new power plants. And we urge the 

10 EPA to finalize these regulations as soon as 

11 possible.

12 Power plants are responsible for more 

13 than one-third of all greenhouse gas pollution in 

14 the United States and are the largest source of 

15 carbon pollution in the country. The science is 

16 clear that climate change is driven by carbon 

17 pollution from human activities. And these 

18 emissions standards for power plants, the most 

19 significant carbon polluters, are long overdue.

20 As we face climate change, we face 

21 substantial public health challenges due to heat 

22 waves, drought, flooding, ground-level pollution, 

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1 and an increase in extreme weather events, among 

2 many other impacts.

3 The economic costs of impacts to health, 

4 property, infrastructure, and agriculture will 

5 grow exponentially as we move into the future. 

6 Limiting carbon pollution should be our priority, 

7 as it is vital for protecting the public health, 

8 the economy, and our future.

9 Although we advocate for stronger 

10 standards than those that are proposed, these 

11 proposed regulations will help to ensure that new 

12 fossil-fuel-fired power plants, which are 

13 typically intended to operate for more than 40 

14 years, will use proven technology to limit carbon 

15 pollution.

16 We thank the EPA for addressing carbon 

17 and further urge the EPA to move forward as 

18 mandated under the Clean Air Act, and without 

19 further delay or weakening of these proposed 

20 regulations. This is a vital step in moving the 

21 country toward a low-carbon future, and we must 

22 do so to protect our health, our safety, our 

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1 environment, and our economy.

2 Thank you for your time and opportunity 

3 to speak before you today.

4 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

5 MS. JANE: Hi. My name is Anna Jane, and 

6 I live in Black Mountain, North Carolina. So 

7 I've come all the way from western North 

8 Carolina, and I really appreciate the opportunity 

9 to speak here today.

10 I've lived in western North Carolina most 

11 of my life, and these days I work for the Western 

12 North Carolina Alliance, which is our region's 

13 older grass roots organization. We are 32 this 

14 year. And our mission is to work with our 

15 members and supporters throughout western North 

16 Carolina to protect our mountains, forests, and 

17 rivers so that people and the environment can 

18 thrive.

19 I often refer to the Blue Ridge Mountains 

20 as our old wise mountains. Many scientists 

21 believe they are among the oldest in the world, 

22 far older than the Himalayas. They are also an 

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1 ecological gem and sustain some of the greatest 

2 biodiversity in North Carolina -- I'm sorry, 

3 North America.

4 I would also argue it is one of the most 

5 beautiful places in the world. Our mountains,

6 rivers, and forests, and the recreational 

7 opportunities they provide, are also the economic 

8 drivers of our region. People live, work, stay, 

9 move, vacation, study, and play in western North 

10 Carolina because of our mountains.

11 And our mountains and the communities 

12 they hold are being impacted by climate change. 

13 This past summer alone, our normal bright summer 

14 days gave away to 40 days and 40 nights of 

15 endless rain.

16 Millions and millions of dollars or crops 

17 were lost in the deluge, a season's worth of 

18 tomatoes and peaches and watermelons, leaving our 

19 farmers wondering how they were going to feed 

20 their families and pay their bills. My neighbors 

21 and friends were some of those farmers. They 

22 lost half of their crop.

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1 Just five years ago, after -- this came 

2 just five years ago after one of the worst 

3 droughts in western North Carolina history, where 

4 our French Broad River saw its lowest-ever 

5 recorded level. These extreme weather events are 

6 predicted to increase and worsen.

7 What's more, experts project the climate 

8 change will have consequences ranging from 

9 negative to disastrous for hundreds of native 

10 species, the species that make our region an 

11 ecological gem.

12 For example, unmitigated climate change 

13 will lead to the loss of between 43 and 97 

14 percent of Southern Appalachian brook trout 

15 populations, an outcome that would have a 

16 disastrous impact on our ecosystem and our 

17 economy.

18 What's more, reports indicate that 

19 Asheville, the economic and tourism hub of our 

20 region, can expect 20 to 30 more 90-degree days 

21 by the year 2050 from the warming that has 

22 already been set in motion. By doing nothing,

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1 climate change would produce temperature change 

2 and weather similar to Atlanta, Georgia, by the 

3 year 2100.

4 The warming of the local climate will 

5 make our fall color much more like the 

6 surrounding lowlands and less like the fiery rich 

7 autumn we're famous for and that people travel 

8 from all over the country and the world to 

9 witness.

10 The Western North Carolina Alliance can 

11 no longer honor our mission to protect the 

12 mountains and people of western North Carolina if 

13 we don't do everything within our power to combat 

14 and mitigate catastrophic climate change.

15 And we're just one. There are many, many 

16 equally beautiful and unique places all around 

17 this nation who are facing different, but equally 

18 unacceptable, impacts of climate change.

19 And so on behalf of our members and 

20 supporters, and our colleagues and allies all 

21 over the world, I urge you to pass strong carbon 

22 pollution protections for new power plants and to 

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1 do whatever you are capable of doing to fight 

2 climate change, so that we can all live into a 

3 brighter, cleaner, safer, and more sustainable 

4 future. Thank you.

5 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both.

6 Okay. So we got a few more folks. 

7 Great.

8 Tara Losoff and Mary Anne Hitt.

9 Ms. Losoff?

10 MS. LOSOFF: Well, hi. 

11 MR. HAEUBER: Hi.

12 MS. LOSOFF: My name is Tara Losoff. I'm 

13 the National Outreach Manager with the National 

14 Wildlife Federation, the nation's oldest and 

15 largest conservation, education, and advocacy 

16 organization, with over 4 million members and 

17 supporters, and 48 affiliates chapters around the 

18 country.

19 I'm also on the board of the D.C. Chapter 

20 of Net Impact, which is an international 

21 organization that strives to inspire and educate 

22 and empower students and professionals to use the 

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1 power of business to make the world a more 

2 socially and environmentally sustainable place.

3 And I'm testifying on my own behalf. But 

4 I just wanted to demonstrate that while I'm also 

5 certainly an environmentalist and an idealist, 

6 I'm also a pragmatist and a business school 

7 graduate, and I understand the complexity of the 

8 problem we're facing. There's no easy answer. 

9 But I appreciate you trying.

10 I believe that if we get this right, it 

11 will spur innovation and benefit our economy, our 

12 communities, and national security. So I've 

13 spent the last 13 years of my career working and 

14 volunteering with communities around the country, 

15 working with people from fishermen, small 

16 business owners, scuba divers, moms, activists 

17 like myself, basically trying to advance 

18 pragmatic policy solutions like this one that I 

19 believe will make our world a better, safer, more 

20 just, more beautiful, peaceful place.

21 And I do that really just because I 

22 believe -- you know, I live here. This is my 

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1 planet. You know, so there's no other 

2 motivation. I just can't help but notice that 

3 we're not living in an environment right now that 

4 is completely healthy or just or peaceful or 

5 safe.

6 And so for me, and for my friends and my 

7 family, I just wanted to come and speak out and 

8 encourage you to do all you can to help. And 

9 obviously, fossil-fueled power plants account for 

10 40 percent of carbon pollution. We haven't been 

11 regulating that carbon pollution. While we've 

12 been doing a good job with other pollution from 

13 power plants, we need to reduce carbon pollution 

14 from power plants. It's as simple as that.

15 There's a saying that if we don't change 

16 the direction we're headed, we'll end up where 

17 we're going. And unfortunately, in the case of 

18 carbon pollution and climate change, we've 

19 already been on a path of unchecked carbon for so 

20 long, and we're already finding ourselves here in 

21 a place where there are so many devastating and 

22 frightening consequences.

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1 You know, glaciers are shrinking. Sea 

2 levels are rising. Heat waves and drought are 

3 becoming longer and more intense. Storms are 

4 becoming more frequent and severe. Neighborhoods 

5 are flooding and eroding. Water resources are 

6 becoming less reliable. Plant and animal species 

7 are changing their ranges. Species are becoming 

8 extinct and at risk.

9 Our families are experiencing respiratory 

10 disease and health impacts. And hundreds of 

11 lives and hundreds of billions of dollars have 

12 been lost. And that's not the direction I want 

13 to see us going.

14 So the time to act is now. We need 

15 limits on carbon pollution from power plants. We 

16 need energy development that reduces dependence 

17 on fossil fuels. And we need to encourage and 

18 support innovation to modernize and improve power 

19 plants and make them cleaner, safer, and more 

20 efficient. And I commend the President and the 

21 administration and everybody who's worked 

22 tirelessly to move us into this new, more 

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1 sustainable, more peaceful direction. Thank you.

2 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

3 MS. HITT: My name is Mary Anne Hitt. 

4 I'm with the Sierra Club. I thought we were the 

5 largest and the oldest, so we'll sort that out.

6 MS. LOSOFF: Oh, okay.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MS. HITT: I'm the Director of the Beyond 

9 Coal Campaign at the Sierra Club, and I live in 

10 West Virginia with my family. And I'm here today 

11 both in my professional capacity and as a mother 

12 and an American who's very concerned about 

13 climate change, and very optimistic about the 

14 opportunity to power our country with clean 

15 energy that does not contribute to climate 

16 disruption.

17 The Sierra Club supports the EPA's 

18 proposed carbon standard for new power plants. 

19 With millions of Americans already experiencing 

20 and paying the price of record droughts, super21 storms and wildfires that are being exacerbated 

22 by climate disruption, we see it as just common 

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1 sense that future power plants built in the U.S. 

2 must manage their carbon emissions.

3 As I see it, when we set these pollution 

4 standards, we are agreeing as a nation that this 

5 pollution is a problem that we can do better and 

6 this is a problem that we're going to solve, 

7 rather than digging in our heels and allowing our 

8 neighbors to continue to pay the cost.

9 And as you've heard today from a lot of 

10 speakers, our neighbors are paying the costs now 

11 of climate disruption. Whether it's the farmers 

12 in North Carolina, whether it's the mayor of a 

13 Texas town who's counting the months until his 

14 town runs out of water, whether it's a homeowner 

15 who has lost everything to a wildfire or a storm 

16 made worst by climate change, our neighbors are 

17 paying these costs on their doorsteps today.

18 And we should see these carbon standards 

19 as an opportunity to apply American ingenuity and 

20 know-how, not only to solve this problem, but to 

21 unleash a new generation of innovation and 

22 investment.

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1 I live in West Virginia. So I know that 

2 there is strong opposition to these standards 

3 from the coal industry. But as the Director of 

4 the Beyond Coal Campaign, I also know that there 

5 are millions of people around this nation who 

6 have already made the decision that new polluting 

7 conventional coal plants are not the energy 

8 future that they want for their community or for 

9 this planet.

10 State after state, town after town, these 

11 community leaders have already prevented the 

12 construction of 182 new coal-fired power plants 

13 all around the country over the past 10 years. 

14 They are the reason that no new coal plants are 

15 on the drawing board in the U.S. today.

16 New power plants in the U.S. must deal 

17 with their carbon pollution, and that's a 

18 commonsense position that millions of Americans 

19 support. Just this week, the Sierra Club

20 released a new poll that found seven in ten 

21 Americans support EPA's efforts to set carbon 

22 pollution limits for power plants. And in fact, 

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1 56 percent of Americans think we already have 

2 those limits in place, although clearly, they are 

3 not or we all wouldn't be here today. And two in 

4 three U.S. voters say the issue of climate 

5 disruption is a serious problem.

6 So, on behalf of the Sierra's Club's 2.1 

7 million members and supporters, I want to 

8 register our support for the carbon standards for 

9 new coal plants, and also note that we are 

10 requesting you strengthen the standards for new 

11 gas plants, which we feel are too lenient.

12 I thank you for all your hard work and 

13 commitment to tackling carbon pollution and 

14 climate disruption.

15 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both.

16 So, I'd like to call up Lane Boldman and 

17 Adam Sundberg.

18 Ms. Boldman?

19 MS. BOLDMAN: Hi. My name is Lane 

20 Boldman, and I represent the Kentucky 

21 Environmental Foundation, which is an 

22 organization dedicated to the raising awareness 

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1 of health, environmental, and economic impacts in 

2 Kentucky related to coal pollution, among our 

3 many campaigns.

4 This year's State of the Union address, 

5 President Obama definitively declared that 

6 climate change is real, and because of this, we 

7 urge the EPA to move forward with strong carbon 

8 regulations for new power plants.

9 The American Public Health Association 

10 and the World Health Association have identified 

11 climate change as one of the biggest threats to 

12 public health. Kentuckians face a wide range of 

13 risks associated with climate change, including 

14 more extreme weather events, drought, the spread 

15 of life-threatening diseases, including Lyme 

16 disease and West Nile virus.

17 While these threats from climate change 

18 are more than enough incentive to support the 

19 strongest carbon regulations possible, and while 

20 recent polling data shows that the public is 

21 accepting that climate change is real and caused 

22 by humans, even with those overwhelming 

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1 incentives, there are states such as ours that 

2 have already suffered significant damage from 

3 carbon pollution for decades.

4 Health and science experts say that 

5 pollution from fossil fuels is dangerous,

6 particularly for children because it triggers 

7 asthma attacks and can permanently reduce lung 

8 function. Kentucky has some of the highest rates 

9 of asthma in the nation. According to the CDC in 

10 2008, an estimated over 300,000 adults in 

11 Kentucky had asthma.

12 In addition, air pollution can affect 

13 cardiovascular diseases. Kentuckians have a 

14 significantly higher than average rate of 

15 diseases affecting the heart and circulatory 

16 systems. According to Kentucky's Cabinet for 

17 Health and Family Services, cardiovascular 

18 disease accounted for 30 percent of all deaths in 

19 Kentucky in 2009 and ranked 8th out of 50 states 

20 for death rates due to cardiovascular disease.

21 The EPA's proposed clean air standards 

22 for carbon pollution will protect our citizens by 

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1 reducing the smog that triggers asthma attacks 

2 and other health threats. But in order to make 

3 this happen, the EPA must enact strong federal 

4 regulations, as our state regulators and state 

5 enforcement efforts are failing us.

6 Our history has been tied to coal for 

7 more than a century. We're a coal-rich state. 

8 We're significant suppliers of coal power to 

9 power plants throughout the nation, and over 90 

10 percent of our energy comes from the burning of 

11 coal. Yet coal-related jobs are only 1 percent 

12 of statewide employment. And we are far behind 

13 many other states when it comes to diversifying 

14 our energy portfolio and efforts to reduce carbon 

15 pollution.

16 We have no renewable energy portfolio 

17 standard, nor energy efficiency resource 

18 standards. And Kentucky ranks third among states 

19 in per-customer electricity use, while having 

20 some of the lowest per-capita income rates in the 

21 nation. We're a poor state.

22 Such a dependency on coal makes Kentucky 

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1 exceptionally vulnerable to even small swings in 

2 the industry. Coal is a culture in Kentucky that 

3 has existed for generations. This legacy has 

4 ultimately created an environment where state 

5 regulators are either unable or unwilling to 

6 strongly enforce local standards that protect 

7 human health from carbon pollution.

8 The reality is, with the strong 

9 investment in coal -- has had a significant 

10 impact on the health of Kentuckians. We authored 

11 a health impact assessment of coal and clean 

12 energy options in our state, which outlined the 

13 data showing the relationships between the 

14 extraction, processing, transportation, burning, 

15 and disposal of coal combustion wastes and 

16 impacts on health, plus health benefits of 

17 cleaner energy sources. And I'll be sending that 

18 by email.

19 A study conducted by the Mountain 

20 Association for Community Economic Development 

21 found that enacting mandatory investments in 

22 renewable energy and energy efficiency would 

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1 create over 28,000 jobs over the course of a 10-

2 year implementation period.

3 We have been addressing our constituents, 

4 who wish to support the growing interest for 

5 clean energy initiatives. However, due to the 

6 impact of the coal industry as a single source of 

7 energy generation, it creates a monopolistic 

8 landscape without room for strong 

9 diversification.

10 But coal in Kentucky is on the decline, 

11 and the trend is clear. Our state's Energy and 

12 Environment Cabinet now recognize that change is 

13 inevitable. Yet even with that, they are 

14 proposing solutions that will slow down the 

15 timeline for moving Kentucky to a cleaner energy 

16 future.

17 Our governor has begun asking for more 

18 flexibility and less accountability. And 

19 Representative Ed Whitfield from Kentucky, 

20 Chairman of the House Subcommittee on Energy and 

21 Power, proposed legislation that would prevent 

22 EPA from taking action to restrict greenhouse gas 

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1 emissions from new coal plants. And Senator 

2 McConnell from our state is one of the most 

3 powerful men in Washington. We are up against a 

4 stacked deck.

5 The political pressure to retain and 

6 promote coal in Kentucky is significant. But the 

7 trend is clear that delaying the inevitable will 

8 only result in more impacts to the health of 

9 Kentuckians, rather than protect the interests of 

10 the carbon industry. So we advocate for very

11 strong standards. Thank you.

12 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

13 Mr. Sundberg?

14 MR. SUNDBERG: My name is Adam Sundberg. 

15 I'm a graduate student in environmental history 

16 studying climate change at the University of 

17 Kansas.

18 Like many here today, I'm here to voice

19 my support for the proposed EPA standards for new 

20 power plants. I felt compelled to speak not only 

21 because of my background in the history and 

22 science of climate change, but because the 

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1 implications this particular plan would have on 

2 my home state of Kansas.

3 That these regulations would come to a 

4 public hearing while I'm temporarily living and 

5 working here in D.C. seems to me to be a 

6 particularly serendipitous circumstance. I've 

7 had the opportunity to attend several hearings 

8 and meetings on the proposed regulations, as well 

9 as attempts to derail them.

10 I noticed immediately what many who have 

11 experienced these unique gatherings have also 

12 noted, the theatrical nature of the events, the 

13 carefully chosen and repeated dialog that 

14 ultimately says as much about the performance as 

15 it does about the content of what is said. 

16 I want to draw your attention to one of 

17 the most oft-repeated and ultimately 

18 insubstantial phrases, because I think it 

19 deserves substance and may help to convey my 

20 opinion about this particular matter. And that 

21 is "common sense." You've all heard it. But why 

22 use this phrase? Both sides of this particular 

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1 political contest use it, but only one side, in 

2 my judgment, has the right, the just right, to 

3 employ it.

4 "These standards are common sense." In a 

5 few seconds, deconstructing the implications of 

6 this phrase may help clarify my position. One 

7 approach is to look at common sense as a sort of 

8 majority opinion. This isn't the most creative 

9 interpretation, but if representatives want to 

10 justifiably harness the idea, majority opinion 

11 bears consideration. A majority of Americans 

12 recognize that climate change exists and that 

13 it's negatively affecting them.

14 Most Americans also backs cuts to 

15 greenhouse gas emissions from power plants. 

16 According to this crude rubric, it would seem 

17 that the EPA is simply following a mandate as 

18 much dictated by common sense as it was by 

19 Obama's Climate Action Plan.

20 As much as I value the majority opinion 

21 on this particular issue, a more valuable 

22 interpretation of "common sense," in my opinion, 

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1 is to channel the underlying spirit of perhaps 

2 the most famous employer of common sense in the 

3 theater of public opinion, Thomas Payne.

4 In the introduction to his Revolutionary 

5 pamphlet, Payne admitted that "Common sense need 

6 not exclusively be dictated by a majority 

7 opinion," because to a certain extent -- and I'm 

8 paraphrasing here -- we are creatures of custom, 

9 unaccustomed to change.

10 These EPA regulations are a change, and a 

11 positive one, but still a change that opponents

12 of these regulations are ill-prepared for. The 

13 modern world was built on fossil fuels, and 

14 changing, even slightly, the manner in which we 

15 balance energy and environmental impact will draw 

16 a position. This is expected, which should not 

17 dissuade us from moving forward.

18 In defense of this principle, I'd like to 

19 draw a more personal connection to my home state 

20 of Kansas, where some of the most vociferous 

21 opposition to new carbon standards has been 

22 heard, but where, nonetheless, valuable changes 

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1 were implemented.

2 Kansas may be one of the most suitable 

3 locations for renewable energy, particularly 

4 wind, but it's nonetheless fossil-fuel country. 

5 Kansas is a natural gas hub and a coal consumer. 

6 Coal is shipped daily from Wyoming to fuel our 

7 energy demands.

8 Coal has also been a central point of 

9 contention in Kansas, both in my home city of 

10 Lawrence and across the state. Up until the last 

11 five years, the Westar plant in Lawrence was 

12 listed by the EPA as one of the top emitters of 

13 greenhouse gases. Lawrencians living in the 

14 immediate vicinity of the plant frequently 

15 complained about the obvious impacts this plant 

16 had on their health and on its symbolic and 

17 material status as a massive emitter of 

18 greenhouse gases.

19 In the last several years, however, the 

20 Westar plant in Lawrence, as well as others in 

21 locations throughout eastern Kansas, were 

22 upgraded or in the process of being upgraded. 

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1 The decision to implement these changes was 

2 largely in response to lawsuits for noncompliance 

3 with the Clean Air Act, though obviously not 

4 related to carbon dioxide.

5 The point is, though, that these plants 

6 changed or are currently being changed. The 

7 costs were absorbed, and Lawrencians, in 

8 particular, breathe safer air than before.

9 This example has two implications for the 

10 current issue. One, that change is possible, 

11 even if it's against custom; and two, these 

12 changes yield appreciable benefits immediately 

13 felt by surrounding communities.

14 This is not to say that the work is done. 

15 This Lawrence plant is still a large emitter of 

16 greenhouses gases, and it is a poisonous symbol 

17 of our continued reliance on coal in Kansas, as 

18 are all of the plants in Kansas.

19 It's also a necessary symbol of 

20 transition, dictated by the Clean Air Act and 

21 implemented on a local level. Naturally, this

22 plant is an existing source, so it falls outside 

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1 the regulations currently under consideration. 

2 But the lessons are still relevant for new 

3 sources planned for Kansas, and particularly the 

4 Sunflower plant in Holcomb, Kansas.

5 These standards would have an immediate 

6 impact in that community, allowing at least one 

7 community to avoid the situation understood by 

8 every Lawrencian. Thank you.

9 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

10 So, the next two speakers we're going to 

11 call up are Elizabeth Perera and Anthony 

12 Rodriguez.

13 Ms. Perera?

14 MS. PERERA: Thank you. Good afternoon. 

15 I'm Elizabeth Martin Perera. I'm a senior 

16 Washington representative working on climate 

17 change, coal, and public health for the National 

18 Sierra Club. I hold a Master's of Public Health 

19 and Environmental Health, and a Master's of 

20 Environmental Management with a focus on 

21 pollution, climate, and energy-related studies. 

22 And I've been working on climate policy here in 

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1 Washington for almost a decade.

2 I am also here to represent, as a 

3 volunteer, the American Public Health 

4 Association. I'm the Chair of the Topic 

5 Committee on Climate Change. And as was 

6 mentioned earlier, the American Public Health 

7 Association has recognized since 1994 that 

8 climate change is a major public health threat.

9 I'm also the mother of two, a three- and 

10 five-year-old. And I'm especially here today to 

11 represent them, because in 50 years, when all of 

12 us may not be here or be too old to come here, 

13 they will be in the prime of their lives and will 

14 be affected by some of the greatest consequences 

15 of climate change. So I feel it's most important 

16 to represent then.

17 The Sierra Club supports the EPA's 

18 proposed carbon pollution standards for new power 

19 plants. And, you know, I grew up in Baltimore, 

20 Maryland, and not too far from Crane Power Plant, 

21 which is one of the oldest and dirtiest power 

22 plants in Maryland.

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1 This coal plant has long been responsible 

2 for deaths, heart attacks, asthma attacks, 

3 chronic bronchitis, ER visits. And we know that 

4 its uncontrolled carbon pollution has been 

5 threatening the future of the State of Maryland 

6 for some time and causing and contributing to 

7 climate disruption.

8 My state's cherished heritage around the 

9 Chesapeake Bay and the Eastern Shore is gravely 

10 under threat from climate disruption. Whether 

11 it's sea level rise that's inundating our 

12 islands, and some have actually disappeared, or 

13 more extreme heat waves in Baltimore City, this 

14 is a major problem for the population of 

15 Maryland.

16 We must not let future power plants 

17 continue to gravely impact our health and our way 

18 of life. And Sierra Club has actually been 

19 calling for the retirement of this, Crane Power 

20 Plant, and the Wagner Coal Plant, for some time. 

21 We must ensure that these kinds of polluting 

22 power plants are not built in the future.

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1 These standards for new power plants are 

2 a crucial step forward on the way to the 

3 regulation of existing power plants, where we 

4 know that the majority of carbon pollution is 

5 from. These standards reflect a commonsense way 

6 forward for what most Americans already know is 

7 happening, that climate change is real and it's a 

8 major threat.

9 We believe that the standard could be 

10 made stronger and more stringent for natural gas 

11 power plants and that less exemptions for certain 

12 power plants could make the entire standard 

13 stronger and the future standard.

14 Although this opportunity is historic and 

15 we must move forward and we stand boldly behind 

16 the EPA and support the EPA and everyone working 

17 for it as moving us into the future that we know 

18 will be cleaner and safer and more prosperous for 

19 our children and grandchildren. Thank you.

20 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

21 Mr. Rodriguez?

22 MR. RODRIGUEZ: Thank you. I'm Anthony 

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1 Michael Rodriguez from Texas Southern University, 

2 Houston, Texas. Greetings to the members.

3 From Houston Texas Southern University, 

4 Barbara Jordan Mickey Leland School of Public 

5 Affairs, the Mickey Leland Center for Environment 

6 Justice and Sustainability, and more 

7 specifically, our President, Dr. John Rudley, and 

8 the Dean, R. Robert Bullard, "the Father of 

9 Environmental Justice," I say greetings again.

10 At this moment, my input and 

11 participation were those of the institution I 

12 represent, the Mickey Leland Center.

13 Now I speak of a personal connection to 

14 the impacts of carbon pollution, the use of 

15 fossil fuels, the degradation of the environment, 

16 specifically, new power plants. In 1988, soon 

17 after the birth of my second child, my wife and I 

18 were informed he had a massive medical problem. 

19 My son had a congenital heart defect called 

20 "transposition of the great arteries." 

21 Praise God, at the time we had excellent 

22 insurance and excellent service at the Houston 

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1 Medical Center at St. Luke's Hospital. The 

2 operation to correct the arteries was performed 

3 by the best in the world. Sadly, our son never 

4 came out of surgery.

5 Now we live in the Houston-Galveston non6 attainment area. My wife grew up in the shadows 

7 of a pollution-intensive industry and worked in 

8 that industry for over 13 years prior to that 

9 experience. I have been a resident of the region 

10 for 34 years. I have seen the potential birth 

11 defects due to toxins, generally and personally.

12 Again, in 1990, we went through a similar 

13 experience with our third child, who was born 

14 with a shorter right femur. Praise God, she 

15 lives today and is doing quite well.

16 The point is, members of this committee, 

17 we the people need you.

18 My research, published as a dissertation 

19 in 2012, surveyed a sample of residents of Harris 

20 County to get their opinion on issues of urban 

21 forestry and sustainability. One indication from 

22 the results show that members of the household 

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1 sector are dependent on the public sector 

2 operators to do the right thing in respect to 

3 their health and general welfare and that of 

4 their children. The research also demonstrates,

5 when it comes to health, there is a high 

6 propensity and a willingness to change.

7 In mitigating the effects of carbon 

8 pollution, please consider a strong connection in 

9 maintaining and replanting trees, employing 

10 planting patterns to help minimize the effects 

11 and impacts of airborne pollutants and runoff. 

12 Research has shown that trees can serve as sumps 

13 to help clean both the air and the water. This 

14 is by several, Roundtree and Nowak, McPherson, 

15 and others.

16 Additionally, please continue to include 

17 the household sector to do the things they can do 

18 to help protect our environment.

19 For example, include communities in 

20 mitigation strategies, whereby if power plants 

21 are given methods to mitigate, such could include 

22 plans to improve the quality of the tree cover in 

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1 and around urban communities, subsidize 

2 residential solar installations, which are a win3 win if considered at its fullest. Also towards 

4 reducing our overall carbon footprint, help 

5 households acquire solar self-sufficiency.

6 Finally, thank you for your work, and 

7 know as you press forward, the people -- all the 

8 people -- require the positive outcomes of a 

9 clean and healthy environment now and into the 

10 future. Our lives depend on it.

11 Know many of us are doing our part in 

12 reducing, reusing, recycling, repairing, and 

13 reframing how we behave and do the things we do. 

14 We all want clean air, clean water, spaces and 

15 places for us all to live, play, and work in a 

16 manner that is not dangerous to our wellbeing.

17 When those that are viewed in the 

18 position to make policy changes are seen working 

19 towards those values that are not party-, race-, 

20 or income-centric, they can find a different 

21 platform from which to win that does not require 

22 making villains of sectors of their constituency.

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1 Please know the masses, the households, 

2 the kit-and-kin sector life depends on you. 

3 Please do not let us down. Again, from Texas 

4 Southern University, the Barbara Jordan Mickey 

5 Leland School of Public Affairs, Mickey Leland 

6 Center for Environment Justice and 

7 Sustainability, thank you very much.

8 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both.

9 So, next we'd like to call up Jacob 

10 Hornfeld and Philip Huffeldt.

11 MR. HORNFELD: Hi. Thanks for hearing me 

12 today. So, I'm just here for myself. I don't 

13 represent anyone. And so I'd like to just speak 

14 on a more personal level.

15 Back in August of 2011 --

16 MR. HUNTON: Could you state your name, 

17 please?

18 MR. HORNFELD: Oh, sorry. My name is 

19 Jacob Hornfeld.

20 Back in August of 2011, I walked out of 

21 my house, went across the street to my neighbor's 

22 hay field, and I went for a swim. It was 

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1 completely flooded. The stream usually goes 

2 through, you know, a brook that's maybe a foot 

3 deep. And when the snow melts, it's, you know, 

4 up to my ankles. But on this day, it was 

5 something completely different.

6 You know, my house is up on the hill, so 

7 I figured I'd have fun with the flood. But down 

8 the stream, there were houses getting washed 

9 away, property was lost, and people's whole 

10 worlds were destroyed.

11 I'm a student at the University of 

12 Michigan, and I'm a proud Vermonter. When 

13 Hurricane Irene hit Vermont three years ago, it 

14 completely smashed my state, $700 million worth 

15 of damage, the road systems were destroyed. 

16 Property was lost, people died. It was the worst 

17 storm in recorded state history, and the repairs 

18 are still being done today.

19 And I know as well as anyone that you 

20 can't just attribute a storm like that to climate 

21 change. But all the evidence suggests that, with 

22 the way we're going, storms like this are going 

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1 to become more frequent and more severe.

2 I left my home state to go to college two 

3 years ago. And I've realized since then that 

4 I'll definitely be headed back there in the 

5 future. I want to have a family in Vermont. I 

6 want to grow old there. I want to have a life 

7 there. But I want to have that life in a place 

8 that resembles where I grew up -- you know, a 

9 Vermont with snow to ski on, with ice for pond 

10 hockey, with maple syrup and local produce and 

11 the best cheese out there.

12 But that can't be a reality if we 

13 continue with our current policies. I'm sure 

14 you've had the statistics quoted to you all day. 

15 You know, you know that adding carbon to our 

16 warming atmosphere is just going to exacerbate 

17 our problems. Exempting power plants from 

18 regulation, you know, things like this are going 

19 to destroy us.

20 Instead of enjoying, you know, playing in 

21 the snow, my future kids are going to deal with 

22 climate refugee issues. Instead of being able to 

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1 grow, you know, vegetables in my garden, I'm 

2 going to be dealing with extended droughts.

3 But it doesn't have to be that way. 

4 Adopting policies like this one that we're here 

5 to comment on today is really tangible progress 

6 towards a sustainable, enjoyable future. I'm 

7 happy to see that the EPA is doing concrete work 

8 like this, taking clear steps in the right 

9 direction.

10 Please support these regulations, and 

11 please keep pushing for stricter, more effective 

12 ways to limit carbon pollution. Thanks.

13 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

14 MR. HUFFELDT: Hello. Thank you for the 

15 opportunity to present my statement today. My 

16 name is Philip Huffeldt. I am the Coordinator,

17 Snowriders International. And I am a lifelong 

18 skier. And global warming caused by carbon 

19 pollution is threatening my way of life as a 

20 skier.

21 I've traveled from Denver, Colorado, 

22 today to represent the skiers, snowboarders, and 

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1 mountain recreation enthusiasts across the 

2 country. I find this discussion to be especially 

3 relevant with the Winter Olympics right around 

4 the corner. This iconic, historical event is 

5 just one more part of winter that is in danger of 

6 disappearing from our lives.

7 I have been skiing since before I could 

8 walk and as soon as I was strong enough to ride 

9 in my dad's backpack in Vail, Colorado, in the 

10 1980s. My dad has been skiing his entire life as 

11 well, was a professional ski instructor, and 

12 taught my entire immediate family to ski. His 

13 father was a skier, too. Skiing has been in my 

14 family for generations, and I sincerely hope for 

15 many generations to come.

16 That's why the time is now to protect 

17 priceless pastimes, a way of life, and entire 

18 economies from literally melting away.

19 Skiers, snowboarders, and all kinds of 

20 mountain enthusiasts are losing what they love 

21 due to decreased snow pack and shorter, more 

22 erratic winters. In fact, according to the 

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1 International Panel on Climate Change, winter is 

2 at least 20 days shorter in places than it was in 

3 1972, and it's only getting warmer.

4 If carbon pollution continues unchecked, 

5 by the end of this century we may not have skiing 

6 in the United States anymore. For this reason, 

7 we the skiers, boarders, and mountain recreation 

8 enthusiasts of America won't sit idly by while 

9 our way of life melts away.

10 Entire communities and state economies 

11 are at risk as well. Unpredictable winters and 

12 decreased winter snow pack have already cost the 

13 winter sports world over $1 billion since 1999, 

14 according to the report released by the Natural 

15 Resources Defense Council, and others.

16 And that doesn't end with skiers and 

17 snowboarders. Drought, floods, wildfires, and 

18 damaged ecosystems are hurting all kinds of 

19 mountain recreation enthusiasts. Hunters, 

20 anglers, kayakers, and many more are also 

21 dependent upon a steady snow pack and a stable 

22 climate to support game migrations, strong 

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1 rivers, and healthy forests.

2 Artificial snow and skiing on grass won't 

3 save our communities or our way of life, but 

4 saving winter by cutting carbon emissions will. 

5 I urge the EPA to protect snow sports, the Winter 

6 Olympics, and mountain recreation by making these 

7 strong carbon pollution standards for new and 

8 existing power plants so power plants are no 

9 longer allowed to dump unlimited amount of 

10 dangerous carbon pollution into the air.

11 Let's ensure that my children and my 

12 children's children will share the same joy and 

13 priceless traditions that I have. Please act on 

14 climate now. Thank you.

15 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. Thanks.

16 So next, I'd like to call Travis Madsen 

17 and Jill Borak, please.

18 Mr. Madsen?

19 MR. MADSEN: Thank you very much. My 

20 name is Travis Madsen. I'm the Senior Program 

21 Manager for Global Warming at Environment 

22 America. I'm here on behalf of our million 

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1 members and supporters across the country, and 

2 I'm also here as an individual to express our 

3 support for the proposed rules to limit carbon 

4 pollution from new power plants.

5 I'm from Colorado originally. And I 

6 current live there. And when I was a kid, I 

7 spent a lot of time at a cabin that one of my 

8 ancestors built, up in the mountains next to a 

9 wilderness area where the mountainsides were 

10 covered with green pine trees.

11 And over the years, I've returned to this 

12 place often. And I've noticed that there's a 

13 shocking change underway. A lot of the trees 

14 that used to be green are turning brown as a pine 

15 beetle infestation chews through the forests. 

16 And then the brown trees are slowly turning gray 

17 as the needles fall off. And I've really noticed 

18 it's a dramatic change.

19 Temperatures are about two degrees warmer 

20 now than they were at the beginning of the 

21 Industrial Revolution, and just that little 

22 temperature change is already increasing the 

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1 changes, impacts, that are happening in my home 

2 state. We've had wildfires. We had a massive 

3 flood outside of Boulder, Colorado, this summer 

4 where almost a year's worth of rainfall fell in 

5 the span of just a handful of days, washed out a 

6 bunch of roads.

7 And this is just touching the surface of 

8 the different kinds of impacts that global 

9 warming is having all across the United States.

10 When I look at the forecast for what 

11 could happen in the future if we continue to emit 

12 unlimited amounts of carbon pollution into the 

13 air, scientists are talking about a temperature 

14 increase on the order to 10 degrees Fahrenheit 

15 across much of the United States. I would really 

16 like to not experience what that would be like. 

17 I think we need to do everything we can to 

18 prevent that from happening.

19 And I think, you know, finding ourselves 

20 in a hole, the first thing we should do is stop 

21 digging. The rules that the President and the 

22 Environmental Protection Agency have proposed to 

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1 regulate carbon pollution from new power plants 

2 is a strong step in the right direction.

3 More than 3 million Americans agree with 

4 me and have commented in support of these rules. 

5 And I would like to urge the EPA to move forward 

6 and implement these rules as soon as possible.

7 Thank you very much.

8 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

9 MS. BORAK: Hello. My name is Jill 

10 Borak. I'm the Policy Manager at the Jewish 

11 Council for Public Affairs. I'm here on behalf 

12 of the Coalition on the Environment and Jewish 

13 Life, an initiative with 27 national Jewish 

14 partner agencies spanning the full spectrum of 

15 Jewish religious and communal life, and the 

16 Jewish Council for Public Affairs, the public 

17 affairs arm of the Jewish community, and the 

18 national coordinating and advisory board body for 

19 15 national and 125 local Jewish community 

20 relations agencies.

21 Thank you for this opportunity to offer 

22 Jewish support for EPA's proposed carbon 

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1 pollution standards for new power plants.

2 The United States is one of the world's 

3 leading contributors to climate change and air 

4 pollution. And power plants are one of our 

5 nation's largest sources of carbon pollution.

6 The proposed standards would 

7 substantially alleviate these problems by 

8 limiting 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide from new 

9 coal-fired power plants per megawatt hour 

10 generated, and 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide 

11 from natural-gas-fired power plants.

12 As people of faith, we cannot sit idly by 

13 knowing that the world's poorest and most 

14 vulnerable communities are suffering from the 

15 severe ramifications of climate change and air 

16 pollution. Around the world, climate change is 

17 already causing an increase in the frequency and 

18 intensity of droughts, heat waves, hurricanes, 

19 and storms.

20 The consequences of extreme weather 

21 events such as Hurricane Yolanda and Super-storm 

22 Sandy are disastrous, often causing billions of 

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1 dollars in damages to homes and infrastructure 

2 and limiting access to food and potable water.

3 Carbon pollution is also linked to an 

4 increase in asthma rates, heat-induced heart 

5 attacks, and the spread of infectious diseases.

6 Climate change is not only one of the 

7 greatest moral challenges of our time. It is the 

8 security challenge as well. It is putting the 

9 world in an increasingly dangerous and 

10 unpredictable state.

11 According to defense, intelligence, and 

12 national security experts, climate change is one 

13 of the most urgent national and international 

14 security threats. Extreme weather events and 

15 erratic temperatures caused by a changing climate 

16 have the potential to destabilize already weak 

17 countries through mass migration and food and 

18 water scarcity.

19 Politically unstable regions such as the 

20 Middle East are especially vulnerable to an 

21 increase in violence and conflict due to 

22 depletion of resources. If we do not act, we 

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1 will continue to experience an increase in 

2 national and international security threats 

3 stemming from environmental causes.

4 The proposed regulations are on track

5 with current trends and technologies in power 

6 plants and reflect the continuing decline in 

7 applications for new coal-fired power plants. 

8 The standards reflect our Jewish laws and 

9 traditions that call on us to serve as good 

10 stewards of the earth and pursue Tzedek, or 

11 justice for all.

12 Ecclesiastes Rabbah 1, verse 4, informs 

13 us that one generation goes, another comes, but 

14 the earth remains the same forever. These 

15 regulations reflect our Jewish values to protect 

16 creation and will help us leave a cleaner, 

17 healthier, and safer world for future 

18 generations.

19 While there is still much more work to be 

20 done, this carbon pollution standard signifies 

21 progress and hope that there will be continued 

22 regulations to reduce our nation's carbon 

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1 emissions. We commend EPA for taking this 

2 important step towards limiting these harmful 

3 emissions, and we urge EPA to finalize these 

4 rules as soon as possible.

5 Thank you for your time.

6 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

7 So, next we'd like to call Dorthea Thomas 

8 and Linda Burchfiel.

9 (Pause.)

10 MR. HAEUBER: Ms. Thomas?

11 MS. THOMAS: Hello. Good evening. I am 

12 Dorthea Thomas, a resident of Detroit, Michigan, 

13 currently working in Washington, D.C., to 

14 influence environmental and climate justice 

15 policy with WE ACT for Environmental Justice.

16 I'm also the First Vice President of the 

17 NAACP Youth and College Division in the State of 

18 Michigan and the Environmental and Climate 

19 Justice Ambassador for Youth in the State of 

20 Michigan, as well for NAACP.

21 Today I'm coming to you to talk to you, 

22 to let you know that I support tougher carbon 

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1 emissions standards for new coal-fired plants 

2 because the impacts of air pollution from coal3 fired plants severely affects low-income 

4 communities of color and indigenous people the 

5 most.

6 If the carbon pollution standards for new 

7 power plants are enforced, this could 

8 significantly reduce mercury, soot, smog,

9 pollution. Announcing new emissions standards 

10 could save up to 46,000 lives a year.

11 In 2009, I lost my grandmother due to a 

12 very rare form of three different types of 

13 cancer. One of the things the doctors told us 

14 upon her diagnosis was, if we lived in a cleaner, 

15 safer environment, it could have prolonged her 

16 life a little while longer. However, we didn't 

17 have the money to just up and leave and forget 

18 everything. So unfortunately, we lost her.

19 And that inspired me to research and 

20 learn more about my community and what was 

21 affecting us, what was impacting us in a way that 

22 I was losing people I love, and I didn't 

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1 understand.

2 Upon research, I found out that 75 

3 percent of African Americans and Latinos live in 

4 communities that are below EPA air-quality 

5 standards. Coal-fired plants spew hundreds of 

6 thousands of pounds of toxic mercury into the air 

7 every year, which falls to earth in the form of 

8 rain and contaminates rivers, lakes and streams. 

9 And it doesn't take much mercury to have a big 

10 impact on our health.

11 Scientists found out that a single gram 

12 of mercury can contaminate an entire 20-acre 

13 lake. My grandparents did all they could to 

14 raise me in a most just, safe, and humble way. 

15 One day I wish to start my own family, but I want 

16 to feel comfortable knowing that my children, who 

17 are of color, will be able to live in a society 

18 that protects them. They will be able to live in 

19 a healthy and just society.

20 Passage of carbon pollution standards 

21 will ensure that communities of color and low22 income communities worldwide will not face new 

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1 threats from plants that will degrade their 

2 health today, and for the future to come.

3 At least one in two, and as many as one 

4 in six, American women of childbearing age have 

5 enough mercury in their bodies to put a baby a 

6 risk for mercury poisoning. Mercury and other 

7 dangerous air pollutants are connected to extreme 

8 health problems -- brain damage, learning 

9 disabilities, birth defects, heart disease, 

10 cancer, and even premature death.

11 Mercury impairs 3,781 bodies of water 

12 across the country. And more than 6 million 

13 acres of lakes and pounds -- of pollution -- and 

14 ponds, excuse me, in the United States are 

15 contaminated by mercury pollution.

16 As I continue my efforts to constantly 

17 work closely with allies in the public health and 

18 environmental justice community, lobbying key 

19 Senators and thousands of activists, together we 

20 can stand up for our future and present 

21 generations to come, and communities of color and 

22 also low-income communities.

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1 The carbon rule would prevent 123 billion 

2 pounds of carbon pollution annually. EPA's 

3 proposed rule would help mitigate climate change 

4 and achieve immediate carbon pollution reductions 

5 from new power plants. We must protect our 

6 families and create a sustainable society. 

7 Enforcing these new carbon pollution standards

8 for power plants will not just protect climate 

9 change for generations to come, but it will start 

10 saving lives today.

11 Something needs to be done to correct the 

12 ills imposed on the most vulnerable. Finalizing 

13 a new standard to reduce carbon pollution is one 

14 of those things. This will save lives, 

15 communities, and a quality of life for all people 

16 to come, not just for the future, but where I 

17 live, in Detroit, Michigan, and other low-income 

18 communities of color. Thank you.

19 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

20 Ms. Burchfiel?

21 MS. BURCHFIEL: Hi. My name is Linda 

22 Burchfiel. And I'm a member of the Great Falls 

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1 Group of the Virginia Sierra Club.

2 Now, most Americans get concerned about 

3 climate change because it hits their home. And 

4 for me, it's Norfolk, Virginia, where my family 

5 is from. My mother and sister still live there. 

6 When I go down to visit, I can see the effects, 

7 the damage already caused by sea level rise and 

8 by frequent flooding.

9 The street my mother lives on, Granby 

10 Street, which is the main artery of Norfolk, has 

11 already had to be raised because of frequent 

12 flooding. The city has invested millions to 

13 raise streets and homes and deal with storm 

14 water, but that's the easy part. Over the next 

15 decade, the city will need to spend $1 billion to 

16 make homes and businesses more resilient.

17 Norfolk can't reduce the worst effects of 

18 climate change by itself. No city can. It takes 

19 federal action and uniform standards. Raising 

20 the mileage standard was a great first step, and 

21 we welcome this next step of limiting carbon 

22 emissions from future power plants. These plants 

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1 last 40 years, and so it's vital that their 

2 emissions be cut.

3 Americans recognize the threat of climate 

4 change, and we are ready for the Federal 

5 Government to step in with uniform standards. As 

6 Will Sessoms, Mayor of Virginia Beach, which like 

7 Norfolk is also very threatened by sea level rise 

8 -- as Will Sessoms said a few months ago, "The

9 time to act is now. We can no longer afford to 

10 do nothing."

11 And it's not just mayors responsible for 

12 the threatened communities. We want government 

13 to act. Sophisticated polling studies, such as 

14 the most recent meta-analysis conducted by 

15 Professor Kosnik from Stanford, which rely on 

16 large samples of randomly selected calls to land 

17 lines and cell phones all over the country, show 

18 the American people understand the basics of 

19 climate change and, more importantly, polls show 

20 Americans are now ready for government to take 

21 action.

22 In November–December of last year, when 

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1 asked, Should the Federal Government require 

2 power plants to limit greenhouse emissions?, 79 

3 percent said yes. That's a national number. 

4 That includes Republicans and Democrats.

5 In an interesting side note, Kosnik was 

6 able to come up with a state-by-state breakdown 

7 by compiling several different surveys and 

8 separating out responses by state, to the 

9 question about limiting emissions from power 

10 plants. He found that a majority in every state

11 agreed to government limiting emissions from 

12 power plants. So, no state had a majority of 

13 skeptics.

14 Americans realize we have to cut 

15 emissions and we have to start with the largest 

16 polluters, fossil-fuel power plants. And again 

17 quoting a mayor who needs to protect his 

18 community, "The time to act is now. We cannot 

19 afford to do nothing." So, thank you for these 

20 standards. And we look forward to standards for 

21 existing power plants.

22 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both very much.

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1 So, our next speakers will be Terry 

2 McGuire and Frank Wang.

3 (Pause.)

4 MR. HAEUBER: Mr. McGuire?

5 MR. McGUIRE: Good afternoon. My name is 

6 Terry McGuire, and I'm a Washington 

7 representative with the Sierra Club. I 

8 appreciate the chance to speak today on behalf of 

9 our 2.1 million members about why we support 

10 strong, just carbon pollution standards for power 

11 plants, both new and existing.

12 Taking action to address climate 

13 disruption is not just about saving the polar 

14 bears. And while Sierra Club would certainly say 

15 that we care a great deal about the plight of 

16 diminishing Arctic ecosystems, this is really 

17 about people. This is about protecting public 

18 health and vulnerable communities and being able 

19 to look our grandchildren in the eyes and tell 

20 them that we did everything in our power to take 

21 action and protect their future.

22 Cities and towns across the United States 

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1 are already witnessing firsthand the results of 

2 decades of inaction. Hotter summers mean more 

3 smog and an increase in asthma and other 

4 breathing-related ailments, which is of 

5 particular concern to children and the elderly.

6 Increased wildfires put our homes, 

7 national parks, and firefighters in harm's way. 

8 Violent super-storms like Hurricanes Katrina and 

9 Sandy put our coastal communities and first 

10 responders in danger. Drought threatens our food 

11 and water supplies and the way of life for 

12 farmers and ranchers. Decreased snow packs hurt 

13 local economies that depend on winter recreation.

14 I would say that if this is a glimpse in 

15 what our way of life could look like on a regular 

16 basis if we fail to act, I suggest we listen to 

17 the 97 percent of climate scientists calling for 

18 bold leadership and strong actions right now to 

19 mitigate the potential worst effects of global 

20 climate disruption.

21 Power plants account for 40 percent of 

22 the industrial carbon pollution emissions in the 

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1 United States. And right now, as you know, there 

2 are no limits on the amount they can emit into 

3 our atmosphere. We believe this is both wrong 

4 and irresponsible.

5 There is no legitimate debate to be had 

6 on the science behind climate disruption. 

7 Climate deniers and lobbyists for big corporate 

8 polluters find themselves on shaky ground. 

9 Increasingly unable to ignore the science, their 

10 arguments are frequently shifted to doom-and11 gloom economic predictions.

12 But we know that this is a false choice. 

13 Since its bipartisan passage, the Clean Air Act 

14 has been one of the most successful laws ever 

15 enacted, simultaneously growing our economy, 

16 driving innovation, and clearing our air and 

17 water. Despite what they may say, these Chicken 

18 Littles are not afraid of the economic sky 

19 falling; they're afraid of reduced CEO bonuses 

20 and corporate profit margins falling.

21 Our staff, members, and volunteers are on 

22 the ground in every state and Puerto Rico, and 

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1 what they are hearing is a strong national call 

2 for EPA to act and implement President Obama's 

3 Climate Action Plan. Poll after poll 

4 consistently reaffirms this, demonstrating 

5 bipartisan public support for action to address 

6 climate disruption.

7 These polls also tell us that, 

8 overwhelmingly, the public trust EPA, not 

9 Congress, to protect our environment and public 

10 health.

11 So we urge you to stand strong in the 

12 face of industry opposition to what we think are 

13 commonsense, long overdue safeguards, and 

14 remember that millions of Americans have weighed 

15 in. I think the number is something over 3 

16 million, the clear majority in support of action.

17 We really look forward to working with 

18 you to ensure that strong carbon standards for 

19 new and existing power plants are quickly 

20 implemented. Thank you for your work to protect 

21 our families and communities, and thank you again 

22 for the chance to speak today.

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1 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

2 Mr. Wang?

3 MR. WANG: Good afternoon. Thank you for 

4 letting me speak here. My name is Frank Wang. 

5 I'm the President and Founder of Green 

6 Technology. Green Technology is R&D and 

7 consulting firm which focuses the emission on 

8 developed carbon-capture technology. We strongly 

9 support EPA's proposed regulation.

10 And we're working with the Department of 

11 Energy to work on the carbon-capture technology. 

12 We think this is critically important to the 

13 health, public health and economic health, of 

14 this country.

15 While our research activity has been 

16 funded by the Department of Energy, the carbon17 capture program, we have several projects under 

18 development right now for post-combustion 

19 capture. Solvent technology, solvent technology, 

20 and technology for carbon utilization.

21 I think that the impact of the EPA's 

22 proposed regulation will have on the utility 

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1 industry is going to be significant. And 

2 current, the proposal, it is on the new source 

3 only. We already see the utility industry switch 

4 from coal-fired power generation to the gas power 

5 generation very quickly. 

6 And however, this did not trigger the 

7 deployment, commercial deployment of the carbon8 capture technology because of the cost of the 

9 technology and its impact on the utility 

10 companies -- their commercial profits, so to 

11 speak.

12 So, we think that the critical piece in 

13 this dilemma is -- the dilemma we're talking 

14 about is that one side is benefits of the public 

15 health; another side is cost increase to the 

16 utility companies, and also ultimately to the end 

17 user of the electricity.

18 We must reduce the cost for carbon CO2 

19 emission reduction. To do that is to find a way 

20 to beneficially utilization of the CO2 captured, 

21 which is technology we're working on. We hope 

22 this regulation will set right direction for the 

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1 industry and for the government body to further 

2 support the CCS technology development and 

3 deployment.

4 And with that, we hope that a new market 

5 may be created, and its new market will be the 

6 carbon market, which has a market potential even 

7 bigger than the oil and gas industry in the 

8 future.

9 So I'm here to not -- we're already hear 

10 a lot of speakers talk about the benefits on the 

11 public health side. So I want here to stress 

12 that the benefits of the regulation as 

13 significant economic drivers. If this regulation 

14 gets implemented in the industry, I foresee that 

15 you will have -- you will put a price tag or 

16 value on the CO2, which will create a market for 

17 the CO2, ultimately.

18 So, which will have significant impact 

19 and economic impact and may create numerous jobs 

20 as well. A new industry may be created by this 

21 regulation.

22 With that, I think this regulation is 

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1 very significant, and we're very supportive of 

2 this regulation, and hopefully it goes to the 

3 implementation as soon as possible.

4 Also, we look forward to see the new 

5 regulation on existing power plants, which 

6 currently do generate about 39 percent of the 

7 electricity in this country, which needs to be 

8 regulated as well. Thank you very much.

9 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both.

10 Okay. Our next speakers will be 

11 Alexander Krupp and Collin Rees.

12 (Pause.)

13 MR. HAEUBER: Mr. Krupp?

14 MR. REES: I'm Mr. Rees, actually.

15 MR. HAEUBER: Oh, sorry.

16 Mr. Krupp?

17 MR. KRUPP: My name is Alexander Krupp. 

18 I'm an intern for an environmental advocacy group 

19 called Environmental Virginia, and also a student 

20 at George Mason University.

21 Before graduating high school, my friend 

22 and I talked about what we were going to do after 

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1 we left. He told me he wanted to be a marine. 

2 So I asked why he wanted to do that, and he said, 

3 "So I can fight to protect us."

4 I told him after the same question that I 

5 wanted to be Administrator of the EPA when I got 

6 out. He asked why I wanted to do that, and I 

7 said, "So I can fight to protect us from 

8 ourselves."

9 Since then I've decided to dedicate 

10 myself to the earth just as he has to our 

11 country.

12 Now that I'm in college, it's easier to 

13 find people who actually care about preserving 

14 the earth like I do. But apart from signing 

15 petitions and going to rallies, what can we young 

16 people actually accomplish?

17 No matter how many protests are 

18 organized, companies are still going to dump 

19 waste and chemicals, poisoning the ocean 

20 resources that we all depend on. They're still 

21 going to frack and drill for natural gas, 

22 contaminating water supplies and risking the 

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1 health of hundreds of thousands of families, like 

2 the recent events in West Virginia.

3 And why is the next generation of 

4 Americans' future in great risk? Because in our 

5 government, we're considered a capitalist 

6 society. This means that when institutions full 

7 of greed and ignorance are the ones with money 

8 and power, the entire constituency of earth is 

9 who pays the price tag. Our plants produce 40 

10 percent of the carbon in this country, and the 

11 control over pollution limits should better 

12 reflect the opinions and efforts of the 

13 constituency.

14 The United States, being the second15 largest carbon-producing country in the world,

16 has an opportunity to greatly reduce emissions by 

17 finalizing these new power plant regulations. At 

18 the same time, there are members of Congress who 

19 oppose the regulations, oppose progress, oppose a 

20 fossil-free future for earth. And for what 

21 purpose?

22 It's time for us to move forward 

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1 together, without partisan politics and quivering 

2 hearts, because the effects of climate change are 

3 not based on the opinions of anyone in this room. 

4 They are destructive and more frequent 

5 hurricanes, drought, and ocean acidification.

6 So why is it that when our country faced 

7 catastrophes like the Great Depression, two world 

8 wars, Americans in the government put their 

9 hearts and minds towards solving the problem? 

10 Yet in our own lifetimes, we're faced with the 

11 most serious global health threat in the history 

12 of mankind, and our leaders squabble over whether 

13 it's even an issue.

14 All we need to do is finalize this first 

15 step in taking America to a new height in health, 

16 technology, and prosperity. By limiting 

17 emissions from power plants and decreasing 

18 dependence on dirty energy, we give rise to a new 

19 dawn in our country.

20 We can create tens of thousands of jobs 

21 for the next generation of Americans with 

22 renewable energy, boost our economy with ensured 

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1 long-term benefits, and make sure our air and 

2 water stays clean, something that many other 

3 countries like Finland, Sweden, and Germany have 

4 already been doing for years.

5 Recently, when hearing debates between 

6 the Environmental Protection Agency and those who 

7 oppose their help, it sounds as though the EPA is 

8 a police officer trying to talk down a man from a 

9 ledge because he was told that he has 

10 limitations. These limits that we set for 

11 ourselves are not to keep us from achieving. 

12 They're to humble us and remind that we are not 

13 invincible.

14 We use limits to advance our capabilities 

15 and create new ways to succeed. By taking this 

16 opportunity to establish our limits for carbon 

17 pollution, we have the means to become a better 

18 country that we and our grandchildren can be 

19 proud of and the rest of the world will actually 

20 respect.

21 The EPA has already received more than 

22 2.5 million public comments supporting this, 

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1 along with the 114 that have been collected from 

2 fellow students at George Mason University in one 

3 day. I can't wait for the day in America that 

4 people will be embarrassed to admit that they 

5 ever disputed the blatant reality of climate 

6 change. And we as students support everything 

7 the EPA has been doing to protect us. Thank you.

8 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you.

9 Mr. Rees?

10 MR. REES: Yes. Good afternoon. My name 

11 is Collin Rees, and I work with the Youth 

12 Sustainable Development and Climate Advocacy 

13 Group called Sustain Us. As a trained engineer 

14 who has worked on climate change in business, 

15 civil society, and the U.S. Government, I have 

16 been involved in policy and climate issues for 

17 many years.

18 I am here to testify in favor of strong 

19 and just carbon pollution standards for new 

20 sources under Section 111B of the Clean Air Act. 

21 The proposed standards are not strong enough and 

22 will not do enough to change our future energy 

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1 mix and put us on a path to a clean energy future 

2 and a livable planet.

3 Climate change is real. It 

4 disproportionately impacts our most vulnerable 

5 populations who have contributed the least to 

6 cumulative greenhouse gas emissions, and its 

7 effects are already impacting and killing 

8 millions of people across the world. It's only 

9 going to get worse until we make a true 

10 commitment to stopping it.

11 These standards for new sources can be an 

12 important, meaningful step in that commitment, or 

13 they can be weak and effectively useless, as the 

14 draft standards are right now.

15 I would first like to address the 

16 proposed standards for natural gas combustion 

17 turbines, which are not stringent enough to have 

18 a meaningful impact. The vast majority of NGCC 

19 sources currently emit in the 700- to 825-pound 

20 CO2 per megawatt hour range. Yet the proposed 

21 standards are set much higher, at 1,000 to 1,100 

22 pounds CO2 per megawatt hour.

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1 It makes no sense to set such a useless 

2 standard, which actually encourages future 

3 natural gas sources to be built to emit more than 

4 those that are currently operating.

5 The Union of Concerned Scientists 

6 recently reported that encouraging natural gas7 based energy production will lead directly to a 

8 future energy mix in which 2050 emissions will be 

9 virtually identical to those today.

10 Reductions for more efficient and retired 

11 coal plants will be negated by retirements of 

12 low-carbon nuclear plants, none of which will be 

13 able to compete economically with gas and 

14 renewable energy sources.

15 A true commitment to emissions reductions 

16 means we must severely limit carbon pollution 

17 from NGCC sources by requiring carbon capture and 

18 sequestration systems and increased efficiency.

19 Next, I would like to address the carbon 

20 capture technology encouraged by the proposed 

21 standards as a means of reducing emissions from 

22 future coal-fired power sources. If carbon is to 

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1 be captured, it must be securely sequestered. 

2 The EPA should not encourage carbon being pumped 

3 underground and used for further exploitation of 

4 fossil fuels through enhanced oil recovery, as is 

5 planned for the Kemper County, Mississippi, power 

6 plant.

7 CO2 EOR is madness. To credibly move 

8 toward a low-carbon energy future and a livable 

9 climate, we cannot continue to burn coal and make 

10 huge amounts of CO2 and use the byproducts to 

11 produce more oil, which is also disastrous for 

12 the climate. That's not moving forward to the 

13 future that we need to see. That's moving 

14 backward.

15 The final 111B standard needs to 

16 encourage truly transformative carbon capture and 

17 sequestration systems. Given that the IPCC has 

18 reported the possible emissions reduction 

19 potential of CCS to be 80 to 90 percent, we need 

20 to require that the carbon capture and 

21 sequestration systems of coal-fired power plants 

22 capture 80 to 90 percent of CO2 emitted and store 

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1 it permanently.

2 Finally, I would like to emphasize that 

3 the proposed standards that we are discussing 

4 today are for power plants that are yet to be 

5 built. These standards will not affect plants 

6 that are in operation now, nor plants nearing the 

7 end of their useful lives that will be shutting 

8 down soon.

9 These standards will regulate plants that 

10 will be built and pollute our atmosphere for the 

11 next several decades. This is not about 

12 emissions in the near future; this is about 

13 America's energy future and America's future 

14 greenhouse gas emissions. I urge the EPA not to 

15 underestimate this responsibility.

16 The window to address the climate crisis 

17 is closing rapidly, and we must act on climate 

18 now. The climate is changing. Extreme weather 

19 events are on the rise, and millions of people 

20 are already dying and being displaced due to the 

21 impacts of climate change. Current generations 

22 are imperiled, and the fate of future generations 

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1 lies in your hands.

2 By issuing just, ambitious carbon 

3 pollution standards based on science and 

4 commensurate with the scale of the challenge 

5 ahead of us, America can be a global leader in 

6 fighting climate change and put us on a path to a 

7 clean energy future and a healthy planet. Thank 

8 you for your time.

9 MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both.

10 (Whereupon, at 4:46 p.m., a recess was 

11 taken, to reconvene at 5:00 p.m.)

12 MR. HAEUBER: So, it is five o'clock. 

13 We're going to break for an hour for dinner. The 

14 hearing will resume at six o'clock, and last from

15 6:00 until 8:00 p.m. And remember, if you want 

16 to make a statement, a five-minute statement, 

17 please sign up with the folks at the registration 

18 desk out in the lobby. And we'll see you back 

19 here at 6:00 p.m. Thank you.

20 (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m., a dinner recess 

21 was taken, to reconvene at 6:00 p.m.)

22

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1 EVENING SESSION

2 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Well, good evening. 

3 Thank you for attending this public hearing. My 

4 name is Jan Cortelyou, and I work for EPA's 

5 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards. 

6 I'll be chairing this portion of the hearing 

7 tonight.

8 Joining me on the panel are Gabrielle 

9 Stevens and Beth Collin, with EPA's Clean Air 

10 Markets Division.

11 We're here tonight to listen to your 

12 comments on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

13 standard for new power plants. EPA published the 

14 proposed standards in the Federal Register on 

15 January 8th, 2014. This commonsense step under 

16 the Clean Air Act would, for the first time, set 

17 national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 

18 power plants built in the future can emit.

19 EPA is proposing to set an emission 

20 standard of 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide per 

21 megawatt hour on a gross output basis for new 

22 fossil-powered utility boilers, and for 

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1 integrated gasification combined-cycle units. 

2 The EPA is also proposing standards for natural3 gas-fired combustion turbines. Those proposed 

4 standards are 1,000 pounds of CO2 per megawatt 

5 hour for large combustion turbines units and 

6 1,100 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour for a small 

7 combustion turbine units. The Agency's proposal 

8 does not apply to existing units.

9 EPA's proposed standard reflects the 

10 ongoing trend in the power sector to build 

11 cleaner lower-emitting plants. The proposal is 

12 flexible and would help minimize carbon pollution 

13 through the deployment of the same types of 

14 modern technologies that power companies are 

15 already using to build the next generation of 

16 power plants.

17 EPA's proposal would ensure that this 

18 progress toward a cleaner, safer, and more modern 

19 power sector continues.

20 Today, we will be accepting oral comments 

21 on all aspects of our proposal, and we will 

22 prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 

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1 transcript will be available as part of our

2 official record for this rule and will be placed 

3 in the regulatory docket. We also are accepting 

4 written comments on the proposed rule until March 

5 10th, 2014.

6 At the registration area, which is 

7 located in the lobby outside of this room, there 

8 are handouts with detailed information outlining 

9 how to submit written comments by mail, fax, or 

10 electronically. EPA will consider your comments 

11 as we move forward to complete a final rule.

12 Written statements and supporting 

13 information submitted during the comment period 

14 will be considered with the same weight as any 

15 oral comments and supporting information 

16 presented at today's hearing.

17 Now let me describe the logistics for 

18 tonight's hearing. I will call the scheduled 

19 speakers to the table in pairs. When it is your 

20 turn to speak, please state your name and your 

21 affiliation before you begin your testimony. It 

22 would help our Court Reporter if you also spell 

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1 your last name.

2 In order to be fair to everyone, we will 

3 limit your testimony to five minutes each and ask 

4 that everyone remain at the table until both 

5 speakers in a pair have finished.

6 After you finish your testimony, members 

7 of the panel may ask clarifying questions. If 

8 you would like to provide us a copy of your 

9 testimony, you can give a copy to the 

10 registration desk out in the lobby, or we 

11 recommend that you follow the procedure above for 

12 submitting documents to the regulatory docket.

13 We have a timekeeping system consisting 

14 of green, yellow, and red lights to help you keep 

15 track of your five minutes to speak. When you 

16 begin speaking, the green light will come on. 

17 The yellow light will signal that you have one 

18 minute left to speak. When the red light comes 

19 on, five minutes have passed, and I will ask you 

20 to please complete your testimony.

21 We will continue this hearing until 8:00 

22 p.m., or later if needed, tonight. If any 

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1 questions arise through the evening, please see a

2 staff member at the registration table for 

3 assistance. Thank you all again for 

4 participating tonight. Let's get started.

5 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: And let's see. The 

6 first two speakers are Gabriel Thoumi and Lonnie 

7 Ellis.

8 Mr. Thoumi, do you want to start?

9 MR. THOUMI: Yeah. My name is Gabriel 

10 Thoumi.

11 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: I'm so sorry.

12 (Laughter.)

13 MR. THOUMI: That's fine. No one ever 

14 gets my name right. That's T-h-o-u-m-i.

15 These are prepared remarks by Calvert 

16 Investments. Thank you for the opportunity to 

17 comment on the new-source standards for carbon 

18 dioxide from future power plants. My name is 

19 Gabriel Thoumi. I am both a finance professional 

20 and a trained scientists with multiple advanced 

21 degrees in each field.

22 I'm a chartered financial analyst,

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1 charter holder of the CFA Institute, and I'm a 

2 certified ecologist by the Ecological Society of 

3 America. I have 15 years experience in 

4 institutional funds management at many public and 

5 private sector institutions and have eight years 

6 experience in sustainability working in 28 

7 countries. I'm also an expert reviewer to the 

8 IPCC Fifth Assessment Report.

9 At Calvert, I'm a senior sustainability 

10 analyst at Calvert. I cover the utilities and 

11 chemical sectors, analyzing these sectors for 

12 investment opportunities and risks. Calvert 

13 Investments manages over $12.5 billion in assets 

14 and has served institutional investors and retail 

15 clients for almost 40 years. Calvert Investments 

16 offers more than 40 investment strategies, many 

17 of which apply integrated, environmental, social, 

18 and governance research.

19 As investors with material financial 

20 exposure today to the utilities sector, we see 

21 the coming decades as one with both major 

22 opportunities and risks for the sector. The 

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1 Brattle Group, for example, predicts that the

2 U.S. utility industry will invest between $1.5 to 

3 $2 trillion between 2010 and 2030, a much higher 

4 level of investment than the U.S. current rate of 

5 investment.

6 In order to meet the goals of safety, 

7 reliability, affordability, and mitigation of 

8 climate change, we need today to lay the 

9 foundation for an advanced electricity grid that 

10 can meet society's future energy needs, while 

11 producing 80 to 90 percent less carbon emissions.

12 We believe the standards under discussion 

13 today is readily achievable technologies. Our 

14 belief is based, in large part, on the fact that 

15 the market has already moved beyond the targets 

16 sought by the standards. Coal-fired electricity 

17 generation has traditionally been the largest 

18 component of electricity generation, representing 

19 37 percent of the total generation in 2012.

20 Coal is also the most carbon-intensive 

21 fuel for electricity generation, accounting for 

22 roughly three-quarters of the U.S. power sector 

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1 carbon emissions in 2012.

2 While coal represents about one-third of 

3 U.S. power generation, it emits 75 percent of 

4 U.S. emissions. Ergo, reducing emissions from 

5 coal-fired plants is therefore critical to 

6 reducing emissions of greenhouse gases.

7 Alternative means of producing power have 

8 become cost competitive, and in some cases even 

9 cheaper, than building new coal-fired electricity 

10 generation. The Michigan Public Service 

11 Commission earlier this year found that new coal 

12 power is twice as expensive as new wind power, 

13 for example.

14 Beyond simple cost considerations, coal 

15 power plants have significant additional risks. 

16 These plants are more exposed to risks like 

17 changes in fuel costs; chemical pollution risks, 

18 as you have seen in West Virginia, and health 

19 risks; new environmental regulations; and water 

20 availability.

21 By contrast, renewable energy and energy 

22 efficiency have a much lower risk profile. 

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1 Energy efficiency in particular is the lower 

2 cost, lowest risk energy resource. We look 

3 forward at a future date to discussing standards 

4 for existing power plants, which we believe would 

5 be a major step forward toward the adoption of 

6 low-cost low-risk energy efficiency and renewable 

7 energy assets.

8 Thank you for your time and your 

9 commitment to good process.

10 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

11 MR. ELLIS: Thank you for this 

12 opportunity to speak. My name is Lonnie Ellis, 

13 and I am a member of the Order of Franciscan 

14 Secular. I care about carbon pollution and 

15 climate change as a Catholic and lay Franciscan, 

16 and as a kid who grew up on a farm in Minnesota.

17 I think the moral call should be clear to

18 us. Let me quote Pope Francis: "Whenever we 

19 fail to care for creation and for our brothers 

20 and sisters, the way is open to destruction, and 

21 hearts are hardened." Or from the United States 

22 Conference of Catholic Bishops: "At its core, 

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1 global climate change is not about economic 

2 theory or political platforms, nor about partisan 

3 advantage or interest group pressures. It is 

4 about the future of God's creation and the one 

5 human family."

6 I think the moral call is clear. I think 

7 the numbers should be clear to us, as well, from 

8 a moral standpoint, that 150,000 people die every 

9 year right now because of climate change, 

10 according to the World Health Organization. And 

11 that's about 50 times the number of people who 

12 died on September 11th, 50 times.

13 But it can be hard for us to imagine 

14 maybe a vibrant, caring relationship with 

15 creation, you know, from our decision makers, or 

16 even all of us, how we could have a renewed sense 

17 of caring for all that we see around us, as my 

18 faith calls me to. It can be hard to imagine 

19 even the lives of people in Africa or Asia or 

20 other places who imagine their lives and see them 

21 being affected and dying because of climate 

22 change. It can be kind of hard for us to imagine 

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1 famine and flooding coming at such a rate like 

2 this.

3 But so, then I think, you know, what we 

4 can do is imagine, you know, let's say a father 

5 in Colorado who, as a wildfire approaches his 

6 home, is spraying down his roof with water to try 

7 to hope that the flames, these enormous flames, 

8 don't catch on his roof. Or imagine a mother 

9 trying to protect her kids from the rising floods 

10 in coastal areas throughout the United States.

11 Maybe we can imagine farmers watching 

12 their crops and their livelihoods dry up in 

13 California right now, or in other places in the 

14 U.S. I can imagine this happening to my brother 

15 Tim on the farm in Minnesota, on the lands that I 

16 grew up. And I think, I just pray that we all 

17 have the imagination to see the moral necessity 

18 to act on climate change.

19 Thank you very much for your work.

20 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

21 Okay. Our next two speakers are Max 

22 Lander and Ben Droz.

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1 (Pause.)

2 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: No Ben? Okay. 

3 Are you Max?

4 MR. LANDER: Hello. I'm good. Thank 

5 you.

6 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Okay.

7 MR. LANDER: My name is Max Lander. 

8 That's L-a-n-d-e-r. I'm an energy researcher at 

9 the World Watch Institute, which is a non-for10 profit environmental research group based here in 

11 D.C.

12 The modern industrial world owes great 

13 tribute to coal, which gave birth to the 

14 processes and technologies that have shaped 

15 humanity into the twenty-first century. But its 

16 great contribution has come and gone, and has now 

17 been replaced with more sophisticated energies 

18 that have accompanied our progression.

19 With the emergency of mature and 

20 affordable renewable energy technologies, we now 

21 have the opportunity to move away from our most 

22 inferior energy source. With the technical 

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1 capabilities and expertise to now use local wind, 

2 water, and solar resources to deliver stable, yet 

3 flexible, power supplies, we are now ready to 

4 implement such calculated regulations to 

5 transition our energy sector away from coal.

6 Establishing a standard for emissions in 

7 the power sector is a momentous step in 

8 establishing the domestic framework to combat 

9 climate change and help transition America to 

10 become a green energy leader.

11 Yes, this ruling will hurt jobs and 

12 future coal business. But this is the price of 

13 progress. Moving from industry-heavy coal to 

14 cleaner technologies that can be integrated into 

15 our local communities without ecological 

16 consequences is a piece of the new narrative in 

17 which we as a society are making made -- will be 

18 made multifold in public prosperity and 

19 sustainable jobs.

20 Regulating coal-plant emissions will 

21 direct the market to energy sources that are 

22 healthier and more responsible, as well as those 

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1 that are already technologically available.

2 I applaud your initiative, and wish the 

3 EPA confidence in taking action to do what is 

4 right for America. Thank you.

5 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

6 Are you Ben?

7 MR. DROZ: Yes, I am. I apologize.

8 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Great. Hi, Ben. 

9 That's okay.

10 MR. DROZ: I did not actually have a 

11 chance to print out my testimony today. But 

12 thank you so much for having me share my 

13 experience and my time.

14 So, I think that the coal emissions 

15 standards are very important. You know, I do 

16 advocacy on Capitol Hill. And, you know, 

17 Congressman Waxman had the Cap-and-Trade Bill, 

18 which failed, and it's so important because I 

19 believe that climate change is -- there's a lot 

20 of evidence for the fact that it may exist. And 

21 I think that we really need to be moving forward 

22 in the right direction here.

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1 As far as if this will kill jobs, I think 

2 that that is not the case, because I think that 

3 there are innovations that will just shift those 

4 jobs to other places, even within coal plants.

5 I actually have a white paper that I can 

6 submit to the record that has just been released 

7 about co-firing coal plant -- coal-fired plants 

8 with biomass. There is a way to do this where 

9 you can actually use Appalachian coal, which is 

10 high sulfur and uses -- it emits a lot of carbon, 

11 but you can actually put biomass in there and 

12 they have these new ways of doing it. So I'm 

13 happy to do that.

14 That study actually uses industrial hemp 

15 biomass, which I also think is something that 

16 should be considered. I really think that 

17 everything should be on the table.

18 I applaud the courageous moves that 

19 President Obama is making towards curbing the 

20 effects of climate change. And clearly, coal 

21 plants, coal-fired plants are just huge 

22 polluters, massive polluters. And I know that, 

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1 you know, if we don't do it, China is going to do 

2 it or, you know, something like that. But I 

3 think that we really can be the leaders. It's 

4 going to take innovation.

5 And we can get a lot more energy out of 

6 the same coal if we just start putting 

7 regulations in place. So, thank you so much. I 

8 don't know how much time I have. But thank you.

9 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

10 MR. DROZ: And my name is Ben Droz. I 

11 live in Washington, D.C. I came here to work 

12 within advocacy, directly working within Congress 

13 to try to level the playing field, because it is 

14 not only overwhelming proof of climate change, 

15 which is very serious, it's a very serious 

16 problem, but also there's also very evidenced 

17 about the type of money that's in politics to 

18 sway the scales in one way or another.

19 And so that's why I applaud your efforts 

20 and thank you very much for your consideration 

21 and implementation of these regulations.

22 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

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1 MR. LANDER: Hear, hear.

2 (Pause.)

3 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: All right. Our next 

4 two speakers are Lavona Grow and Julie Hantman.

5 (Pause.)

6 MS. GROW: Who did you just call?

7 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: I just called Lavona 

8 Grow and Julie Hantman. Okay.

9 You can take your time; it's fine.

10 MS. GROW: Good evening.

11 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Are you ready? You 

12 can go ahead and start.

13 MS. GROW: I am.

14 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Okay. 

15 MS. GROW: Thank you. My name is Lavona 

16 Grow. And I am from Arlington, Virginia. And 

17 I'm a Unitarian Universalist. Our faith 

18 tradition is somewhat like, kind of like the Ten 

19 Commandments, but they're principles that guide 

20 us. And our seventh principle affirms our 

21 respect for the interdependent web of all 

22 existence, of which we are a part.

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1 I'm the Co-Chair of the Unitarian 

2 Universalists for Social Justice in the National 

3 Capital Region. And in recent years, we've 

4 adopted climate change as one of our priority 

5 issues. We believe we have a moral obligation to 

6 speak out and address the causes of climate 

7 change, including greenhouse gas emissions from 

8 power plants.

9 I urge the EPA to adopt strong carbon 

10 pollution standards for new electric-utility11 generating power plants. And as the President 

12 has directed EPA, to work expeditiously to 

13 complete carbon pollution standards, it will help 

14 to address public health issues.

15 And I wanted to just share some of my 

16 experiences. I've been to New Orleans four times

17 post-Katrina as a volunteer and have witnessed 

18 the devastating effects of extreme weather on the 

19 most vulnerable. And I was back most recently in 

20 June. Communities in the lower Ninth Ward are 

21 still suffering, and so many residents have never 

22 returned. And I fear that severe weather events 

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1 like this will increase.

2 In 2012, my husband and I went to Glacier 

3 National Park and Yellowstone National Park. At 

4 Glacier, we learned from a guide that, at his 

5 first training session in 2008, that at the 

6 current rate of glaciers would be gone around 

7 2024. Just a year later, as his updated 

8 training, guides were told that the glaciers will 

9 be gone in less than eight years, by about 2016.

10 An 80-year-old ranger, who has lived in 

11 the area his entire life, said so simply, "Of 

12 course, there is always global climate change. 

13 But we're not supposed to see it during our 

14 lifetime." No, it should be hundreds of years, 

15 not eight to ten years.

16 At Yellowstone, we saw the devastating 

17 effects of the mountain pine beetles. Slightly 

18 warmer temperatures have allowed them to complete 

19 their life cycle in just one year instead of two. 

20 Temperatures are not cold enough to keep them in 

21 check.

22 The beetle is devastating the highOLENDER REPORTING, INC.

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1 elevation white park pine, a critical food source 

2 for the grizzly bears there, killing off acres of 

3 lodgepole and Ponderosa pine forests, which are 

4 containers of carbon, has turned them into 

5 sources of atmospheric carbon as the trees die 

6 prematurely and often burn off in more frequent 

7 forest fires. We saw hundreds and hundreds of 

8 burned and dying forests.

9 My husband has asthma. And in EPA's own 

10 study, the 2009 Endangerment Findings, the report 

11 has outlined the many health hazards associated 

12 with particulate matter and the likely increases 

13 in cases of asthma. And we need strong 

14 protections for the most vulnerable.

15 Based on what I've learned, I believe 

16 these rules could provide the regulatory 

17 certainty also needed to incentivize research, 

18 development, and investment in new technology to 

19 capture and store CO2 emissions. This will 

20 create needed new jobs as the inevitable shift 

21 from coal to natural gas continues.

22 It's hard in an environment where 

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1 corporations are now people, money equals speech, 

2 for average people to feel heard. I thank you 

3 for the opportunity to be heard and urge the EPA 

4 not to be overly influenced by corporations' 

5 short-term world view over the long-term needs of 

6 real people and our earth.

7 We need to keep moving forward and make 

8 changes wherever and whenever we can. These 

9 regulations are the right thing to do now. Thank 

10 you.

11 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

12 MS. HANTMAN: Good evening. My name is 

13 Julie Hantman, and I'm a representative of a 

14 national organization called Climate Parents. 

15 Our Director, Lisa Hoyos, is based in California. 

16 She asked me to send her regrets that she could 

17 not participate. She also asked me to send her a 

18 few inches of rain.

19 Only a year after it was founded, Climate 

20 Parents has mobilized tens of thousands of moms, 

21 dads, and grandparents to take organized action 

22 in support of bold climate solutions. We're 

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1 doing so for the sake of our kids.

2 Climate Parents' speed of growth, plus 

3 the strength in numbers from our allies at 

4 organizations like Moms Clean Air Force and Moms 

5 Rising, who you've probably seen today, 

6 demonstrates that climate change and clean energy 

7 have become top issues for parents and families.

8 Climate Parents calls for a rapid scale9 up of renewable kid-safe climate-safe energy that 

10 doesn't fuel climate change or cause respiratory 

11 illness.

12 We are calling on EPA to craft a carbon 

13 pollution standard that is strong enough to 

14 ensure that newly built plants do not fill our 

15 air with any more dangerous carbon pollution, 

16 regardless of whether it's called "clean coal," 

17 whether it's natural gas or anything else.

18 We are all witnessing or experiencing 

19 crippling drought in the West, unusual warming in 

20 Alaska, extreme cold here in the East, and the 

21 loss of homes and livelihoods. Yet, human-caused 

22 climate change is just getting started. It is 

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1 our kids and youth around the world who will 

2 confront the projected ever-worsening of global 

3 conditions, from severe storm impacts to ocean 

4 acidification, to food and water scarcity.

5 We have to do everything within our power 

6 to limit carbon pollution, and we must act fast. 

7 EPA must stand up to the coal and gas industries 

8 that will spend millions of dollars pushing for a 

9 weaker standard and slowed implementation.

10 EPA also should keep in mind that 

11 investments in renewable energy yield significant 

12 job opportunities in the clean energy economy, 

13 and these are the jobs that we want our kids to 

14 grow up to take.

15 Climate Parents is demanding a clean 

16 energy future for our kids, including a move 

17 toward 100 percent clean energy. The road to 

18 that future requires that the EPA place 

19 aggressive carbon restrictions on newly built 

20 power plants.

21 More than 5,000 parents, grandparents, 

22 and other members of Climate Parents have written 

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1 comments in support of stringent carbon pollution 

2 limits for new power plants. I am pleased to 

3 have submitted those comments to your colleague 

4 just outside the door.

5 Thank you in advance for hearing the 

6 comments of our members and reading them further. 

7 They urge you to take bold action on behalf of 

8 our kids and communities. Thank you.

9 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

10 (Pause.)

11 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Our next two speakers 

12 are Fernando Cazares and T. J. Mathews.

13 MR. CAZARES: Good evening. And thank 

14 you for the opportunity to share a couple of 

15 thoughts with you. Buenos noches.

16 (The Witness spoke briefly in Spanish.)

17 MR. CAZARES: I am here today as a member 

18 of the diverse Latino community in the United 

19 States to support the EPA in regulating carbon 

20 pollution for new power plants, and in the future 

21 from existing power plants, with the strongest 

22 possible standards.

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1 Carbon pollution has disproportionate 

2 negative impacts on Latino and under-served 

3 communities, and is the fastest-growing 

4 population in the country. Our voices on this 

5 issue must be heard.

6 My name is Fernando, and I represent 

7 Voces Verdes, which is a national coalition of 35 

8 Latino leaders from business, labor, public 

9 health, and community sectors who are advocating 

10 action on climate change and the development of 

11 clean energy.

12 Since 2009, Voces has developed a diverse 

13 network of environmental justice, medical, youth 

14 and elderly, and economic development 

15 organizations who are working to make their areas 

16 more environmentally sustainable.

17 We work to empower our leaders to tell 

18 their own story of fighting against climate 

19 change and helping families reap the benefits of 

20 clean energy while cutting their carbon 

21 footprint. This is why we are grateful. One of 

22 our leaders will be here later today, it's a 

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1 business owner. His name is Edwin Luevanos. He 

2 will be presenting to you the business case and 

3 what he does.

4 What I want to share with you tonight is 

5 the Latino community overwhelmingly supports your 

6 actions to finally put limits on carbon pollution 

7 from power plants. This past December, Voces 

8 Verdes and the Natural Resources Defense Council 

9 commissioned a national survey of 800 Latinos by 

10 a group, a company called Latino Decisions.

11 Allow me to point a couple of results 

12 that are pretty resounding. Nationally, nine in 

13 ten Latinos want the government to take 

14 affirmative action, decisive action against the 

15 dangers of global warming and climate change. Of 

16 those, 68 of those who identify themselves as 

17 Republicans say that it is important to take this 

18 action.

19 Nationally, 86 percent of Latinos want to 

20 set limits on carbon pollution for power plants. 

21 Of those, 71 percent are Democrats, 44 percent 

22 are Republicans, and 63 percent of Independents 

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1 strongly supported this action. The support, you 

2 know, stays all along income levels as well.

3 Hispanics are the largest minority ethnic 

4 group in our country. Currently, there are 53 

5 million Hispanics, 17 percent of the population. 

6 In the next 50 years, the U.S. Census predicts 

7 that we will reach 129 million, representing 31 

8 percent of the total U.S. population.

9 The outcome of the policy and regulatory 

10 debates and processes you are engaging in will 

11 directly impact the public health and the 

12 possibilities for our children and grandchildren. 

13 We have a proud history of fighting against dirty 

14 power plants in communities like Chicago's 

15 predominantly Latino communities. And also, 

16 fighting against landfills and other toxic land 

17 uses in Los Angeles, to name a couple.

18 But we also understand that the fight 

19 against dirty energy sources, dirty energy 

20 sources must be fought in the legislative and 

21 regulatory arenas, which is why we are here.

22 We understand the effects of climate 

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1 change go beyond our immediate communities and 

2 borders. We are strongly concerned about the 

3 impacts of Super-storm Sandy along the New York 

4 and New Jersey coast, the wildfires that have hit 

5 California and the Southwest, and the stronger 

6 hurricanes and tropical storms that are predicted 

7 to hit the Atlantic coast, as well as Central and 

8 South America.

9 Finally, I want to close with an 

10 important piece, an important message from our 

11 survey results. For the Latino community, the 

12 most credible messengers in the climate change 

13 conversations are scientists, doctors, 

14 environmental organizations, and you. They are 

15 trusting the EPA and our federal and state 

16 agencies to exercise the authority and the duty 

17 to protect us from the effects of pollution from 

18 fossil fuels and the climate change that it 

19 drives, too.

20 I am here today to let you know that a 

21 strong and growing national coalition of Latino 

22 leaders stands behind you and are ready to 

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1 support the final standards for new power plants, 

2 and we ask you to move decisively to establish 

3 the same limits for existing power plants.

4 Thank you very much.

5 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

6 MR. MATHEWS: Hello. Thanks for this 

7 opportunity tonight. My name is T. J. Mathews. 

8 I am 55 years old and a resident of Tacoma Park, 

9 Maryland. I work as a demographer for the 

10 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 

11 although I'm not representing them this evening.

12 I've lived in Illinois, California, 

13 Colorado, Florida, Maryland, as well as overseas. 

14 In 1979, I was a college student living in 

15 Durango, Colorado, and was given a chance to do a 

16 student tour of the Four Corners power plant 

17 located just west of Farmington, New Mexico, on 

18 the Navajo Indian Reservation.

19 This power plant first started burning 

20 coal and generating electricity in 1963. For 

21 several decades, it generated over 2,000 

22 megawatts of power, making it one of the largest 

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1 in the nation. Recently, three of the five units 

2 on this power plant were shut down.

3 The day I visited this power plant was 

4 one of the saddest days of my young life. I saw 

5 firsthand how ugly we had become. The connection 

6 between what I plugged in at home and the air I 

7 breathed became much more real. I learned that 

8 the majority of the electricity that the plant 

9 created was pulled all the way to California, and 

10 that pollutants from the plant had been measured 

11 in snowfall as far away as 500 miles.

12 That visit broke my heart. And I've told 

13 many people about my experience over the past 

14 three-and-a-half decades.

15 Interestingly, this power plant has been 

16 involved in two tax-related Supreme Court 

17 decisions. The owners of this power plant have 

18 fought tooth and nail to resist taxes and 

19 environmental requirements. They are certainly 

20 not unique. Hopefully, they and others will not 

21 be taking the EPA to court over your upcoming 

22 actions. Please stand firm.

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1 We know the facts of what burning coal 

2 does to the environment. We all know that global 

3 warming is altering our lives, and the path we 

4 are on will be unforgivable if we do not act. 

5 The lives of future generations depend on actions 

6 like this if they are to have a chance to have 

7 decent lives.

8 You, my fellow federal employees, are in 

9 a great position to make a difference. These 

10 actions you take are indirectly carbon tax. This 

11 kind of economic pressure is needed on all fronts 

12 if we intend to mitigate global warming by 

13 reducing the cost-effectiveness of carbon as an 

14 energy source.

15 I am thrilled you intend to create 

16 stricter pollution standards for power plants, 

17 such as these. I believe this action is beyond 

18 overdue. I am hopeful that you do not bend to 

19 the whims of high-paid K Street lobbyists. It is 

20 a tragedy that anyone opposes your intention to 

21 further restrict power plant emissions. I 

22 strongly believe it is patriotic and heroic that 

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1 you are doing so, and I am one citizen who is 

2 extremely proud of the EPA. Thanks.

3 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

4 (Pause.)

5 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: We have one more 

6 speaker for now, Sankar Sitaraman.

7 MR. SITARAMAN: Hi. Good evening. My 

8 name is Sankar Sitaraman. I am a math professor 

9 at Howard University here in Washington, D.C. 

10 And I live in near Tacoma Park in the Northwest 

11 of D.C. I want to thank you for giving me the 

12 opportunity to testify here today.

13 First of all, as a scientist, it really 

14 concerns me. I'm not speaking, you know, idly. 

15 I follow the news. I really study, you know, all 

16 the data that's out there. And I look at all 

17 sides of the debate. And I really feel that the 

18 fossil fuel industry has not presented a proper 

19 case.

20 And not only that, they are distorting 

21 and misleading people. And it's for us 

22 scientists and federal employees to stand up to 

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1 this propaganda and work to prevent carbon 

2 pollution from increasing.

3 Also, I want to just make an analogy. I 

4 want to just press the urgency of this issue by 

5 pointing out that several years ago, when tobacco 

6 was causing cancer and lung cancer, and it was 

7 known, and it was being denied by the tobacco 

8 industry, the government stepped in. And even 

9 though many industries might have lost jobs at 

10 that time, and we had to impose some restrictions 

11 on them, we did take action.

12 And I think this is a very similar 

13 situation. Carbon pollution and other greenhouse 

14 gases are really causing cancer for this planet. 

15 It's like the cancer for the organism of this 

16 planet. And it is our duty to try to stop it. 

17 And, you know, as a doctor will treat a patient, 

18 we have to think of this planet as our patient 

19 and do what all we can to reduce the carbon 

20 pollution.

21 And as somebody from India, I'm very 

22 cognizant of the effects of climate change on 

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1 India. And not only India, but also other 

2 countries, poor countries in Africa and 

3 especially in Oceania. I teach at Howard 

4 University. I meet with students from all parts 

5 of the world, especially Africa and the 

6 Caribbean.

7 And I have also spoken with two ministers 

8 from Southern Africa who came here all the way 

9 from Africa just to speak to us to ask us to take 

10 action, take up to our government to try to 

11 reduce carbon pollution.

12 And I am also very aware of all the 

13 drought and all problems that are taking place in 

14 India, and how it is urgent, especially with a 

15 country like India, whose population of more than 

16 1 billion depends on water sources and the steady 

17 source of rain. Any small disruption will cause 

18 tremendous hardship to billions of people.

19 And finally, I'm also an avid outdoors 

20 person. I hike a lot in the Appalachian 

21 Mountains. I love West Virginia and the people 

22 around here. And there are good people. And I 

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1 feel really heartbroken that they're being misled 

2 and abused by the coal industry and the fossil 

3 fuel industry in general, and that the mountains 

4 and the streams are being laid to waste by all 

5 these really unscrupulous actions on the part of 

6 the fossil fuel industry.

7 They keep talking about jobs and, you 

8 know, all kinds of smokescreens to distort and 

9 confuse people. But the fact is, it is 

10 happening. It's happening right in front of our 

11 eyes. Even without the data, we can see what is 

12 going on. And the only way right now that we 

13 have is to put these new limits on these new 

14 power plants. And so I really implore you to 

15 take action and stand firm.

16 Finally, they also say that it is an 

17 engineering problem and we can engineer our way 

18 out of it. We can, you know, put ferrous oxide 

19 on the oceans or take sulfur out of the air, suck 

20 carbon dioxide out of the air, and all kinds of 

21 things. But it's not as simple as that. You 

22 know, we cannot play God. We cannot play with 

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1 nature. We can't engineer our way out of this 

2 problem.

3 You know, if a tribe or a group of 

4 indigenous people lose their land or their 

5 livelihood or their livestock, it's not just the 

6 land or the food that is gone. It's also a way 

7 of life. And if a species of animals is 

8 destroyed, then, you know, you can't engineer it 

9 back to life. So these things cannot be 

10 engineered. It's not an engineering problem.

11 So, I think that's all I have to say.

12 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you very much.

13 (Pause.)

14 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: We've got a couple of 

15 more speakers. But I think we need to wait just 

16 a couple of minutes for them to get in the room. 

17 So let's just take a five-minute break, and we'll 

18 reconvene.

19 (Whereupon, at 6:40 p.m., a brief recess 

20 was taken, to reconvene at 6:42 p.m.)

21 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: All right. Since I 

22 know we have two speakers in the room, let's go 

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1 ahead and get started with them.

2 First of all, we've got Carl Glitzenstein 

3 and Jared Robinson.

4 Gentlemen, just to summarize, we have a 

5 five-minute timer. And when the light turns 

6 yellow, you have one minute left, okay?

7 MR. GLITZENSTEIN: My name is Carl 

8 Glitzenstein, G-l-i-t-z-e-n-s-t-e-i-n.

9 I would first just like to thank 

10 President Obama for the Affordable Care Act, 

11 because it's been personally extremely helpful to 

12 me. And I'm very grateful for that. And I think 

13 it's great for the current generation that he's 

14 gotten that through as a matter of law.

15 But now he's got to look out for current 

16 generations, but more specifically, future 

17 generations, with climate change. And this is 

18 where his true legacy will be determined, on his 

19 action in climate change. And because of that, I 

20 wholeheartedly support the new regulations for 

21 carbon on new power plants.

22 As President Obama said, there is no more 

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1 serious debate about -- in the State of the 

2 Union, there's no more serious debate about 

3 climate change. The world is warming, and 97 

4 percent of scientists say it will continue to get 

5 worse and worse if we do nothing about it.

6 It's already, as people have pointed out, 

7 deadly serious, with storms, droughts, and 

8 floods. The most recent horrendous event was in 

9 the Philippines, where many thousands of people 

10 died. So this is not really your typical 

11 environmental issue. This is a humanitarian 

12 issue, and is as moral a necessity to do 

13 something about as any that have ever existed.

14 There are also future threats to food and 

15 water supply that will cause famine if we do 

16 nothing. And the United States, which is now a 

17 huge food producer, if we do nothing, will no 

18 longer be a food producer.

19 So if we can only think of ourselves, and 

20 our children and our grandchildren, we should 

21 think of the impact that this will have on the 

22 United States. We will be in bad shape if we do 

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1 nothing about climate change in this country.

2 And in addition, there are huge threats 

3 to biodiversity. There have already been 

4 beautiful species that have gone out of existence 

5 because of climate change. One, the golden toad, 

6 this extraordinarily beautiful animal, is no 

7 longer on the planet because of climate change.

8 So we must act. But the fact of the 

9 matter is there are still many people who don't 

10 believe in the existence of global warming. 

11 Because we're having a cold winter, people say 

12 there can't be global warming.

13 So, I think the most important thing that 

14 President Obama can do is to use the bully pulpit 

15 to simply state the facts, get the facts out 

16 there, and let people know about the true threats 

17 that are being faced because of climate change. 

18 And then people will force action in government. 

19 Just saying it once in awhile is not good enough. 

20 He has to use the bully pulpit over and over 

21 again to make this a clear legacy issue for him. 

22 And the actions that could be taken on a 

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1 governmental level, it's necessary to have these 

2 new, these regulations on carbon for new power 

3 plants, but it's not sufficient. There must be 

4 regulation for existing power plants. There 

5 should be no consideration of allowing the 

6 Keystone Pipeline to be built, because we have to 

7 keep oil in the ground, not keep on opening up 

8 new sources of oil, because that's the reason why 

9 we have the climate changes.

10 So even if tar sands was not worse as a 

11 source of oil and other sources of oil, it must 

12 be kept in the ground. We must be funding 

13 alternatives. And also symbolically, we must not 

14 say that we can act as business as usual. You 

15 cannot have a bully pulpit and say that this is a 

16 huge issue, but on the other hand say we're just 

17 going to go right on exploiting oil resources.

18 And that's true with natural gas as well. 

19 Natural gas is not a bridge. Natural gas is a 

20 carbon. It might not be quite as carbon 

21 intensive, but it produces methane in the 

22 production process. Methane is a terrible 

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1 climate-change product. In fact, it's worse in 

2 the short run than carbon. 

3 So saying that we're going to go to 

4 natural gas and oil and things like that, this is 

5 not sufficient. This cannot be a -- if you want 

6 this to be a legacy issue, you cannot fool the 

7 people on this issue. You have to do the truly 

8 correct thing. And I think you probably know 

9 what that is.

10 So I urge you to use the bully pulpit to 

11 make people understand the threat to their 

12 children and grandchildren. And the people will 

13 force action to transition to clean energy and to 

14 create -- and just on a side note, jobs will be 

15 created in this transition. And it might be a 

16 win-win situation in all possible ways. So I 

17 urge that to be done.

18 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you very much.

19 MR. ROBINSON: Hi. My name is Jared 

20 Robinson. And I wasn't planning on testifying 

21 today, but as I watched my colleagues and friends 

22 talk about the places and people that they loved 

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1 and cared about and the importance of this issue, 

2 I was drawn to testifying. So I'll be speaking a 

3 bit off the cuff.

4 But generally, I very much support strong 

5 standards for new-source -- for carbon pollution 

6 standards for new sources. I agree that alone 

7 they are not sufficient to tackling the challenge 

8 of climate change. It's one step in the right 

9 direction.

10 But they must be stronger, they need to 

11 be more ambitious, and they must take into 

12 account equity and must be just standards that 

13 protect our most vulnerable communities that are 

14 impacted by co-pollutants of power plants, and 

15 also impacted by the impacts of climate change 

16 more broadly in terms of, you know, rising sea 

17 levels and the more extreme weather and droughts 

18 and wildfires that we see coming out of climate 

19 change.

20 I also speak -- recently became a D.C. 

21 resident, last week, in fact. But I come from 

22 the State of California and come here in part 

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1 because of my passion for these issues. As a 

2 Californian, climate change is very real to us. 

3 You know, in 2013, we faced our driest year on 

4 record. And as we move into 2014 this year, much 

5 of the state is in an extreme drought and has 

6 reached the most extreme level of drought that's 

7 available on the system that we have.

8 As important as agriculture is in 

9 California, is to the economy, this has huge 

10 economic impacts for our state, but also for the 

11 country, you know, for our food resources for the 

12 country and for the world. I'm also from Sonoma 

13 County, which is the wine industry, and very much 

14 impacted by climate change and the shift in the 

15 temperature for the grapes and that sort of 

16 thing.

17 My background is more in wildlife, 

18 biology, and conservation. And, you know, at the 

19 end of every class there are discussions of the 

20 impacts of climate change and how it's a 

21 multiplier effect on all the other pressures that 

22 human development has put on species. 

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1 Currently, we see in wildlife 

2 populations, you know, extinction levels that put 

3 us on pace with mass extinctions that have 

4 happened throughout the history of earth. And as 

5 I've come into this issue more and continued to 

6 see how not only are we wiping out every other 

7 species on this planet, but climate change will 

8 have huge impacts for, you know, human health and 

9 public health as well. Many of these issues have 

10 been mentioned throughout the testimony today.

11 But for those reasons, for the public 

12 health impacts, for the injustice of America's 

13 pollution contaminating and killing off our --

14 you know, our colleagues and family around the 

15 world, and also other species around the world, I 

16 urge stronger pollution standards for carbon. 

17 So, thank you.

18 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

19 Okay. Our next two speakers are Jose 

20 Aristamuno (phonetic) and Bradley Green.

21 (Pause.)

22 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Are you Mr. Green?

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1 MR. GREEN: I'm Bradley Green.

2 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Is Mr. Aristamuno 

3 here? No? No? Okay. Oh, I'm sorry.

4 All right. Very well. Then, Mr. Green.

5 MR. GREEN: Thank you for this 

6 opportunity to speak. I don't have prepared 

7 remarks, so I'll keep it short and brief. I 

8 regard global warming as the greatest 

9 environmental threat to our planet probably ever 

10 and, clearly, something we need to address.

11 Ideally, a tax on greenhouse gas 

12 emissions would be probably the most efficient 

13 way to proceed. A tax would be revenue neutral 

14 and probably would also cause the least 

15 disruption if we were to implement that kind of a 

16 solution.

17 But that's not politically realistic in 

18 this environment. So I think we're looking at 

19 what is politically possible, the rule that 

20 you're proposing.

21 I would like to see it go further than it 

22 does. Ideally, it would close down over time all 

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1 coal-burning plants. But, so I would urge it to 

2 be strengthened, to have that effect. But 

3 clearly, some action is needed. And so an 

4 aggressive rule is the best chance we have, and I 

5 urge you to move forward with it. Thank you.

6 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you very much.

7 I think that's all the speakers we have, 

8 at least for now. So let's go ahead and take a 

9 break until someone else would like to speak.

10 If there's anyone here that would like to 

11 speak, we certainly would love to hear from you.

12 (Whereupon, at 6:53 p.m., a recess was 

13 taken, to reconvene at 7:09 p.m.)

14 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: All right. We've got 

15 one more speaker, Edwin Luevanos.

16 MR. LUEVANOS: Good evening.

17 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Good evening.

18 MR. LUEVANOS: Start? Should I --

19 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: It would help the 

20 Court Reporter if you spell your name, and then 

21 you can go ahead and start.

22 MR. LUEVANOS: Excellent. My name is 

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1 Edwin Luevanos, and my name is spelled E-d-w-i-n. 

2 Luevanos is L-u-e-v-a-n-o-s.

3 May I get started?

4 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Go right ahead.

5 MR. LUEVANOS: Excellent. Well, thank 

6 you very much for the opportunity, and again, 

7 good evening.

8 My name is Edwin Luevanos. I work for 

9 Citizen Energy LLC. Citizen Energy is a growing 

10 energy consulting startup in Washington, D.C., 

11 and in Florida. We mainly work on delivering 

12 energy-saving solutions for commercial buildings 

13 and are currently expanding to other states 

14 around the country.

15 I started Citizen Energy after I left the 

16 Department of Energy after working there for 

17 about five years. So there was pretty good 

18 training that I received in the Federal 

19 Government, particularly, again, in the area of 

20 energy.

21 As a father of a five-year-old girl, I 

22 couldn't ask for a better job. I'm proud to work 

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1 for a company that has strong beliefs in the 

2 environment, and a sustainable company. I'm 

3 proud to be part of what is going to hopefully 

4 build the future for her and generations after.

5 Citizen Energy particularly has helped 

6 building owners improve building efficiency and 

7 cut their carbon footprint by about 30 percent. 

8 That's our standard for all of our projects. And 

9 now we've worked on close to about 100 projects 

10 in the past two years, and these are buildings 

11 between 50- and 200,000-square-foot buildings.

12 We mainly work on the low-hanging fruit, 

13 as they call it, lighting upgrades. You know, 

14 LED is very popular right now, and many building 

15 owners are starting to gravitate to that. And 

16 our job has been made easier by the increased 

17 demand.

18 We're looking to do more. Our team has 

19 been driven to look at other challenges of what 

20 business can do to, again, help and create this 

21 new economy and reduce carbon emissions. So we 

22 look to solar and development opportunities for 

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1 solar. As you know, solar has the highest 

2 potential than any renewable. I think there's a 

3 stat out there that it can reduce carbon 

4 emissions by about 25 percent by 2030.

5 So, we've looked at development of 

6 distributed solar, particularly looking at 

7 communities that are currently unserved -- not 

8 underserved, but unserved. And what I mean by 

9 that is folks like renters, who currently can't 

10 install solar panels in the properties that they 

11 lease, because they don't own them.

12 So we're looking to build community solar 

13 facilities in metropolitan areas, so central, you 

14 know, almost solar guardians that renters and 

15 other unserved communities can access. They can 

16 access those solar benefits. So they can also 

17 participate and accelerate, hopefully, our 

18 transition to renewable energy and more 

19 distributed solar.

20 We're doing our part from the private 

21 sector end, and we applaud the effort of the EPA 

22 to finally, you know, do their part and limit 

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1 carbon pollution from power plants, which of 

2 course, until now, are free to spill uncontrolled 

3 amounts of carbon dioxide into the air we breathe 

4 every day.

5 These regulations couldn't come any 

6 sooner. The science is settled, as we know, and 

7 it's been vetted by many countries around the 

8 world now and accepted. We know that human 

9 activity is causing global warming and climate 

10 change.

11 We hope that the utility companies will 

12 look at these regulations as an opportunity and 

13 not as a burden. It is an opportunity, indeed, 

14 to look towards renewable energy as a serious 

15 part of their portfolio and strategy to reduce 

16 carbon emissions. This is, again, good for the 

17 environment, health, and our economy.

18 And I know it will give a real incentive 

19 for entrepreneurs just like me to start more 

20 companies, so we can continue to do our part to 

21 steer our nation to cleaner, sustainable, and 

22 safer sources of energy.

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1 We're counting on the EPA to establish 

2 clear and strong standards for carbon emissions 

3 from new power plants, and move forward towards 

4 existing power plants, for the sake, again, of 

5 our new economy and for future generations to 

6 come, including my daughter. Thanks.

7 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

8 (Pause.)

9 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: It looks like we have 

10 another speaker, Adam Hasz.

11 Hi. Great.

12 (Pause.)

13 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Mr. Hasz, you have 

14 five minutes. There's a timer over here. It 

15 will be green for the first four minutes. When 

16 it turns yellow, you've got one more minute left. 

17 And when it's red, it's time to wrap it up. 

18 Okay?

19 MR. HASZ: Great. Thank you.

20 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: And if you wouldn't 

21 mind stating and spelling your name, that will 

22 help out our Court Reporter.

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1 MR. HASZ: Great. Standing, you said?

2 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: No, no. Stating and 

3 spelling your name.

4 MR. HASZ: Oh, stating. Great. All 

5 right. My name is Adam Hasz, A-d-a-m H-a-s-z. 

6 And I'm 24 years old. I'm the Campaign Strategy 

7 Coordinator for Sustain Us, a youth climate 

8 advocacy group that empowers young people to 

9 advance sustainable development.

10 I graduated from Washington University in 

11 St. Louis in 2012 with a degree in environmental 

12 studies. I have been politically active on 

13 climate issues for the past five years.

14 I believe that climate change is the 

15 defining challenge of this century. For my 

16 generation, for the generations that follow, the 

17 energy choices that we make over the next few 

18 decades will decide whether we have a future of 

19 sustainable prosperity or ecological collapse.

20 We have the creativity and the 

21 technological capacity needed to rapidly de22 carbonize and move to a fossil-fuel-free world. 

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1 But without the political courage from our 

2 leaders and regulators, this transition will not 

3 happen quickly enough to avoid the worst impacts 

4 of climate change.

5 From the standpoint of climate science 

6 and intergenerational justice, these proposed 

7 carbon pollution standards for new power plants 

8 are far too weak. While I applaud the EPA for 

9 requiring emission limits that will effectively 

10 exclude new coal power, it is unacceptable to 

11 allow further expansion of natural gas 

12 electricity generation without any requirement to 

13 capture carbon emissions.

14 We need far stronger emission limits if 

15 we are to rapidly reduce climate change pollution 

16 on a pathway consistent with stabilizing total 

17 warming at two degrees Celsius.

18 I'm now going to read a short passage 

19 from Dr. James Hansen's most recent scientific 

20 publication: Assessing Dangerous Climate Change: 

21 Required reduction of carbon emissions to protect 

22 young people, future generations, and nature. 

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1 Dr. Hansen is an internationally renowned climate 

2 scientist and directed the Goddard Institute of 

3 Space Studies before his retirement from NASA 

4 last year. Hansen's passage highlights the stark 

5 choice we face in our energy future between the 

6 catastrophic consequences that will result if we 

7 continue to extract and burn fossil fuels.

8 And this passage in the paper is called 

9 Energy and Carbon Pathways: A Fork in the Road.

10 "At present, as the most easily extracted 

11 oil and coal reserves are being depleted, we 

12 stand at a fork in the road to our energy and 

13 carbon future. Will we now feed our energy needs 

14 by pursuing difficult-to-extract fossil fuels? 

15 Or will we pursue energy policies that phase out 

16 carbon emissions, moving on to the post-fossil17 fuel era as rapidly as possible?

18 "The task today is difficult. Emission 

19 reduction of 6 percent per year and 100 gigatons 

20 carbon storage in the biosphere and soils are 

21 needed to get back to CO2 levels of 350 parts per 

22 million, the approximately requirement to 

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1 restoring the planet's energy balance and 

2 stabilizing climate this century.

3 "Such a pathway is exceedingly difficult 

4 to achieve, given the current widespread absence 

5 of policies to drive rapid movement to carbon6 free energies and the lifetime of energy 

7 infrastructure in place.

8 "Yet we suggest that a pathway is still 

9 conceivable that would restore planetary energy 

10 balance on a century time scale. That path 

11 requires policies that spur technology 

12 development and provide economic incentives for 

13 consumers and businesses such that social tipping 

14 points are reached where consumers move rapidly 

15 to energy conservation and low-carbon energies.

16 "This pathway would need to be taken 

17 soon, as the magnitude of such carbon extraction 

18 is likely limited and thus not a solution to 

19 unfettered fossil-fuel use.

20 "The alternative pathway, which the world 

21 seems to be on, is continued extraction of all 

22 fossil fuels, including development of 

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1 unconventional fossil fuels such as tar sands, 

2 tar shale, hydrofracking to extract oil and gas, 

3 exploitation of methane hydrates. If that path, 

4 with a 2 percent per year of growth, continues 

5 for 20 years and then is followed by a 3 percent 

6 reduction of emissions from 2033 to 2150, we find 

7 that fossil-fuel emissions in 2150 would total 

8 1,022 gigatons of carbon.

9 "Extraction of the excess CO2 from the 

10 air in that case would be very expensive and 

11 perhaps implausible, and the warming of the ocean 

12 resulting climate impacts would be practically 

13 irreversible.

14 "One implication is the likelihood of 

15 intergenerational effects, with young people in 

16 future generations inheriting a situation in 

17 which grave consequences are assured, practically 

18 out of their control, but not of their own doing. 

19 The possibility of such intergenerational 

20 injustice is not remote. It is at our doorstep 

21 now.

22 "We have a planetary climate crisis that 

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1 requires urgent change to our energy and carbon 

2 pathway to avoid dangerous consequences for young 

3 people and other life on earth. The world must 

4 move rapidly to carbon-free energies and energy 

5 efficiency, leaving most remaining fossil fuels 

6 in the ground if climate is to be kept close to 

7 the Holocene range and climate disasters 

8 averted."

9 That's the end of the passage from Dr. 

10 Hansen's essay that I chose to share. I'm not 

11 going to have time to finish the remaining 

12 remarks. I will submit them via written 

13 testimony.

14 But I'd just like to say that with Dr. 

15 Hansen's paper, there's 130 gigatons of carbon 

16 that is allowed in our carbon budget. If we 

17 choose to continue to burn fossil fuels at the 

18 rate we're going, we will use that up in about 13 

19 years.

20 Therefore, I would have to say that the 

21 carbon standards need to be much stronger, such 

22 that we can more rapidly move to low-carbon 

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1 energy or no-carbon energy for all future 

2 electricity generation.

3 I urge everyone present here to consider 

4 how best we can work to build the political will 

5 needed to enact the strident climate policies 

6 that we need to ensure a sustainable and 

7 prosperous future for my generations and all of 

8 the generations that follow. Thank you.

9 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thank you.

10 Okay. Thank you. All right. Well, I 

11 think we will recess the hearing unless we have 

12 another speaker. So we'll be here until eight 

13 o'clock.

14 (Whereupon, at 7:22 p.m., a recess was 

15 taken, to reconvene at 7:56 p.m.)

16 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Are you Mr. Collins?

17 MR. COLLINS: Yes, I am, Phillip Collins.

18 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Hi. Let me just give 

19 you a quick rundown. You've got five minutes to 

20 speak. We have a timer right over here. It will 

21 be green for four minutes, and then the light 

22 will turn yellow. You'll have one minute left. 

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1 And when the light turns red, it's time to wrap 

2 up. Okay?

3 MR. COLLINS: Okay. Thank you.

4 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: All right. And when 

5 you go ahead and get started, if you would spell 

6 your name, that would help the Court Reporter.

7 MR. COLLINS: My name is Phillip, P-h-i8 l-l-i-p, two L's, Collins, C-o-l-l-i-n-s, two L's 

9 again. I live in Washington, D.C. I'm an 

10 attorney, but I don't do environmental law. I'm 

11 mostly in the local courts like child abuse, 

12 neglect.

13 I live here. I mostly travel by bicycle, 

14 and I mostly don't use much fossil fuels because 

15 I don't heat my apartment in the winter. It's 

16 about 40 degrees in there now. So, I try to do 

17 as much as I can to reduce my carbon footprint, 

18 personally.

19 So I'm in favor of preserving the planet 

20 and not destroying all the carbon fuels that we 

21 have now. After all, when we do burn them, we 

22 actually destroy them. They're not there

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1 anymore. It's not like the old Fritos 

2 commercial, "Eat all you want. We'll make more." 

3 Burn all you want, they're not making anymore.

4 So that I think depletion is to the point 

5 of becoming difficult to find and get. It may 

6 not happen anytime really soon, next decade or 

7 two.

8 But eventually, that's going to be an 

9 issue also, and we have to plan not just for our 

10 own generation, our own lives, but for future 

11 generations as well, both with depletion and with 

12 the changes to the climate and the environmental

13 impacts of burning these fossil fuels, such as 

14 coal, which is the dirtiest and has many elements 

15 that could be harmful, such as mercury and 

16 arsenic, in it.

17 So I fully support these standards. I am 

18 a member of the Sierra Club in the area. And I 

19 attend a lot of meetings, not just with the 

20 Sierra Club, but also with other groups. I have 

21 an environmental group of my own. I called it 

22 D.C. Environment Meetup. You pay them some 

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1 money, and they help you get a meetup. There are 

2 several different groups they set up in D.C., 

3 Virginia, and Maryland. There's about 800 

4 members total. But it's not dues-paying whenever 

5 we're active. I just tell them about different 

6 events that are going on.

7 So, I know with the new plants, if 

8 they're going to have new plants, they ought to 

9 be very, very clean if they're going to have 

10 them. Because we have more new technologies than 

11 they had in some of these old plant days. I know 

12 President Obama, when he was speaking when he was 

13 first running for office, "Come on. If we can 

14 put a man on the moon, we can make clean coal."

15 So you'd think it's not -- it's six years 

16 after that, and there have been more done. But I 

17 haven't really seen in my -- I look on the 

18 Internet a lot -- anything that there really have 

19 been a lot of advances in totally eliminating 

20 carbon from being polluted into the atmosphere.

21 The other elements such as sulfur, 

22 there's ways of getting that out. Hopefully, 

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1 mercury also could be removed.

2 Personally, I would like to see us move 

3 more to renewables in every way, including the 

4 human body as a renewable. We are a power 

5 source. I bicycled across the country when I was 

6 in high school. I took a bus from Philadelphia 

7 the last day of school to visit a relative in Los 

8 Angeles.

9 Then I bought a Schwinn bike in 1969 and 

10 bicycled up to Portland, Oregon, and then to the 

11 Boy Scout Jamboree on Lake Pend Oreille, Idaho, 

12 met a guy there. Together, the two of us had 

13 read the jamboree newspaper about a group that 

14 had bicycled out from Erie, Pennsylvania. So we 

15 both talked to them. They put us in touch with 

16 each other. We were both from the Philadelphia 

17 area. We bicycled back together. He became a 

18 forest professor later.

19 But -- so that's interesting. I know 

20 that you can do things under your own power. And 

21 obviously, there's ways we can reduce our use of 

22 the power. I mean, I've gone to a number of 

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1 programs where say, "Well, look." Like the 

2 President Bush's science advisor, "Look. Don't 

3 you guys like turning out your lights and your 

4 big-screen TV's and everything?" Well, 

5 personally, I don't. I don't watch much TV. I 

6 have a little-screen computer. It's a laptop, so 

7 it doesn't take as much power. I don't have the 

8 lights on all that much.

9 I like public places. I mean, after all, 

10 if your house is 40 degrees, you may not want to 

11 be there all the time. But -- and so I would say 

12 that I really do support your proposed standards 

13 to reduce as much as possible with today's 

14 technology.

15 And if there's any way to make, to leave 

16 the standards open for future technologies to be 

17 used as they come in, for any new plants built 

18 then, or to have a say so that new plants are 

19 built with existing technology, that new 

20 technology could be added on, I would love to see 

21 that as well.

22 Personally, I'd rather move totally off 

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1 the carbon fuels entirely. Because carbon fuels 

2 are going to move off of us. We're not going to 

3 have them forever. They're going to be gone. 

4 We'll have all these financing here, it's called 

5 sunk costs. Or it's just something that will be 

6 abandoned in the future after it becomes -- at 

7 some point, people don't seem to think about it, 

8 but eventually it's not going to become 

9 available.

10 We live on a planet. We know how far 

11 around it is, about 25,000 miles. We have mostly 

12 things on the surface or down maybe a couple 

13 miles off the surface. There's only so much area 

14 there.

15 The wells of Pennsylvania used to be the 

16 biggest oil -- I'm sorry, looks like I'm over --

17 oil state. All these wells are going for oil, 

18 and the mines for coal are going, they're played 

19 out after awhile. And eventually, the whole 

20 planet will be played out, and we'll have to do 

21 something else. It would be better for us to do 

22 it before we're forced to by nature. Thanks.

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1 MS. CORTELYOU-LEE: Thanks for coming, 

2 Mr. Collins.

3 Any more? Well, that's all the speakers 

4 we've got tonight. And it's a little bit after 

5 eight, so I want to thank everyone for coming. 

6 And that's it.

7 (Whereupon, at 8:03 p.m., the hearing was 

8 adjourned.)

9

10

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13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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