1



### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5


### Public Hearing on 6



### Standards of Performance of Greenhouse Emissions 7


### From New Stationary Sources: 8


### Electric Utility Generating Units 9

10

11

12

13



### 9:08 a .m. to 8:03 p.m. 14


### Thursday, February 6, 2014 15

16


### EPA East Building 17



### Room A 18



### 1201 Co nstitution Avenue, N.W. 19


### Washington, D.C. 20210 20

21

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### MORNING SESSION 1



### EPA Panel : 2



### KEVIN CULLIGAN , Associate Director , 3



### Sectors, Policies, and Programs Division 4

5



### ERIKA WILSON , 6


### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 7

8



### NICK HUTSON, 9



### Sectors, Polici es, and Programs Division 10

11



### AFTERNOON SESSION 12



### EPA PANEL: 13



### RICHARD HAEUBER , Chief, 14



### Assessment and Communications Branch, Clean Air 15



### Markets Division 16

17



### ELLEN KURLANSKY , 18


### Office of Policy Analysis and Review 19

20

21

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### EVENING SESSION 1



### EPA PANEL: 2



### JAN CORTELYOU

- LE E 3


### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 4

5



### GABRIELLE STEVENS 6



### Clean Air Markets Division 7

8



### BETH COLLIN 9



### Clean Air Markets Division 10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

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### C O N T E N T S 1



### PUBLIC COMMENTS PAGE 2


### Morning Session 3


### ALEX BOND, National Mining Associa tion 14 4



### THERESA PUGH, American Public Power 21 5



### Association 6


### LAURA KATE BENDER, American Lung Association 28 7



### THEODORE FULLER, Citizen 33 8



### SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, Second School District 37 9


### of West Virginia 10



### JAMES DUFFY, Clean Air Task Force 43 11



### GRET CHEN ALFONSO, Moms Clean Air Force 48 12



### KATHLEEN ADDLESON, Citizen 52 13



### JEREMY RICHARDSON, Union of Concerned 56 14



### Scientists 15



### HOWARD FELDMAN, American Petroleum Institute 62 16



### ZOE BERKERY, Business Council for 67 17


### Sustainable Energy 18



### CHELSEA TU, Center for Biological Diversity 71 19



### NANCY ROSS, Citizen 74 20



### JACQUELINE PATTERSON, NAACP 76 21



### PAUL FERGUSON, Citizen 79 22

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### PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE 1



### SETH HEALD, Sierra Club 81 2



### PATRICIA BRUCKBAUER, Creation Justice 85 3



### Ministries 4



### ERIC GO PLERUD, Unitarian Universalists 90 5



### FELICE STADLER, National Wildlife Federation 94 6



### JOHN NOVAK, National Rural Electric 98 7


### Cooperative Association 8



### IVY MAIN, Citizen 104 9


### JIM TOZZI, Center for Regulatory 107 10



### Effectiveness 11



### PETER ADRIANCE, Baha'is of the United States 113 12



### JON GALLINGER, Mitsubishi Hitachi Power 117 13


### Systems America 14



### KENDYL CRAWFORD, Citizen 122 15



### LOUISE BRIERRE, Citizen 124 16



### MANDY WARNER, Environmental Defense Fund 126 17



### EARLE MITCHELL, Citizen 132 18



### LEO CRUZ, Operation Free 137 19



### RONNIE CITRON

- FRANK, Moms Clean Air Force 141 20



### BETSY MONSEU, American Coal Council 144 21

22

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### PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE 1



### MARCIA CLEVELAND, Interfaith Moral Action 150 2



### on Climate 3


### DANNY HERRIN, Southern Company 154 4



### JESSICA HALPERIN, Unitarian Universalists 159 5



### MATT WALKER, Clean Air Council 165 6



### JALONNE WHITE

- NEWSOME, WE ACT for 171 7



### Environmental Justice 8



### AFTERNOON SESSION 9



### SHAUN DAKIN, Moms Clean Air Force 181 10



### NATALIE PIEN, Bill McKibben's 350.org 184 11


### JOELLE NOVEY, Interfaith Power and Light 188 12


### MADISON POCHE, Environment Virginia 193 13



### SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, U.S. Senator Rhode Island 195 14



### JOE O'SHEA, Citizen 200 15



### BARBARA WEINSTEIN , Commission on Social 204 16



### Action of Reforme d Judaism 17



### MICHAEL GREEN, Climate Action Liaison 208 18



### Coalition, Boston, Massachusetts 19



### DAVID HAWKINS, Citizen 213 20


### LIZ SCHMITT, Creation Care for Sojourners 218 21



### RHETT ENGELKING, Franciscan Action Network 221 22

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### PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE 1


### MARY MINETTE, Evangelical Lutheran Church 228 2



### MELINDA PIERCE, Sierra Club 232 3


### ROBERT JAGUSCH, Minnesota Municipal 236 4



### Utilities Association 5


### J. DRAKE HAMILTON, Fresh Energy 241 6



### DARIAN GHORBI, American Coalition for Clean 245 7



### Coal Electricity 8



### ETHAN SPANNER, National Wildlife Federation 251 9


### MARTIN HAYDEN, Earthjustice 254 10



### TODD LARSEN, Green America 259 11



### DEREK MEYER, Citizen 263 12



### DANIEL HUBBELL, National Wildlife Federation 267 13



### DAN BYERS, Institute for 21st Centu ry Energy 271 14



### KATIE HUFFLING, Alliance of Nurses for 276 15


### Healthy Environments 16



### LUKE MICHAELSON, Alliance of Nurses for 281 17


### Healthy Environments 18



### DERF JOHNSON, Montana Environmental 284 19



### Information Center 20



### JOANNE SPALDING, Sierra Club 290 21


### JERRY STEWART, 350 Loudon, Virginia 294 22

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### PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE 1


### ALISON FISHER, Public Citizens Energy 297 2



### Program 3



### NADIA LUHR, North Carolina Conservation 303 4



### Network 5



### ANNA JANE, Citizen 306 6



### TARA LOSOFF, National Wildlife Federation 310 7



### MARY ANNE HITT, Sierra Club 314 8


### LANE BOLDMAN, Kentucky Environmental 317 9



### Foundation 10



### ADAM SUNDBERG, Citizen 323 11



### ELIZABETH MARTIN PERERA, Sierra Club 329 12



### ANTHONY MICHAEL RODRIGUEZ, Texas Southern 332 13


### University, Ho uston, Texas 14



### JACOB HORNFELD, Citizen 337 15



### PHILIP HUFFELDT, Snowriders International 340 16



### TRAVIS MADSEN, Environment America 343 17



### JILL BORAK, Coalition on the Environment 346 18



### and Jewish Life 19



### DORTHEA THOMAS, WE ACT for Environmental 350 20



### J ustice 21


### LINDA BURCHFIEL, Sierra Club, Virginia 354 22

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### PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE 1


### TERRY McGUIRE, Sierra Club, Washington 358 2


### FRANK WANG, Green Technology 362 3


### ALEXANDER KRUPP, Environmental Virginia 365 4



### COLLIN REES, Sustain Us 370 5



### EVENING SESSION 6



### GABRIEL THOUMI, Calvert Investments 380 7



### LONNIE ELLIS, Order of Franciscan Secular 384 8



### MAX LANDER, World Watch Institute 387 9



### BEN DROZ, Citizen 389 10



### LAVONA GROW, Unitarian Universalists for 392 11



### Social Justice 12



### JULI E HANTMAN, Climate Parents 396 13



### FERNANDO CAZARES, Citizen 399 14



### T. J. MATHEWS, Citizen 404 15


### SANKAR SITARAMAN, Howard University 407 16



### CARL GLITZENSTEIN, Citizen 412 17



### JARED ROBINSON, Citizen 416 18



### BRADLEY GREEN, Citizen 420 19


### EDWIN LUEVANOS, Citizen Energy LLC 421 20



### ADAM HASZ, Sustain Us 426 21



### PHILLIP COLLINS, Citizen 433 22

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1



### MORNING SESSION 2



### 9:0 8 a.m. 3



### MR. CULLIGAN : Good morning. Before we 4


### get started, there's an Evan Plevniak (phonetic)

. 5


### You appear to have left your ID at the front 6


### desk. Actually, Erika has your ID. 7


### And with that, I'm going to get us 8


### started this morning. Good morning. My name is 9


### Kevin Culligan. I'm the Associate Division 10



### Director with EPA's Sectors, Pol icies , and 11


### Programs Division. And I'm joined on the panel 12


### by Nick Hutson, who's with the same division, and 13



### Erika Wilson, who is with our Office of Air 14


### Quality Planning and Standards. 15


### We are here today to listen to your 16


### comments on our proposed rule, the Carbon 17



### Pollution Standards for New Power Plants. The 18


### standards were published in the Federal Register 19


### on January 8th. And we believe it's a 20


### commonsense first step on the Clean Air Act that 21



### would, for the first time, set national emission 22

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### limits on power plants. 1


### We're proposing to set the standards at 2


### 1,100, or 1,100 pounds per megawatt hour , for new 3


### fossil power

-- new fossil utility boilers and 4


### integrated gasified units, and a standard of

-- 5


### we're also proposing a standard for gas

- fired 6



### turbines. It w ould be 1,000 pounds per megawatt 7


### hour for large gas

- fired turbines and 1,100 for a 8


### small gas

- fired turbine. 9


### The Agency's proposal does not apply to 10


### existing units. The standard reflects the 11


### ongoing trend in the power sector to build 12



### cleaner lower

- emitti ng units. 13


### The proposal is flexible and would help 14


### minimize carbon emissions through the deployment 15


### of the same types of modern technology that power 16


### plants are already using to build the next 17


### generation of power plants. EPA's proposal would 18


### ensure this p rogress towards a cleaner and more 19


### modern power sector continues. 20


### Today, we will be accepting oral comments 21


### on all aspects of the proposal. And we will 22

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### prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 1


### transcript will be available as part of the 2



### official record of the rule and will be placed in 3


### the regulatory docket. We also are accepting 4


### written comments through March 10th, 2014. 5


### At the registration area, which is 6


### located outside in the lobby, there are handouts 7


### with detailed information outlining how to submit 8


### written comments by mail, fax, or electronically. 9


### EPA will consider your comments as we move 10


### forward to complete the final rule. 11


### Written statements and supporting 12


### information submitted during the comment period 13



### will be considered with the same weight as oral 14


### comments and supporting information presented in 15


### today's hearing. 16


### Now let me describe the logistics for 17


### today's hearing. I will call the scheduled 18


### speakers to the table in pairs. When it is your 19


### turn to speak, please state your name and y our 20


### affiliation, and begin your testimony. It would 21


### help our Court Reporter if you could also spell 22

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### your name. 1


### In order to be fair to everyone, we will 2


### limit your testimony to five minutes and ask that 3


### everyone remain at the table until both speakers, 4



### bo th people have spoken. After you finish your 5


### testimony, members of the panel may ask 6


### clarifying questions. If you would like to 7


### provide a copy of your testimony, you can leave 8


### the copy at the registration desk out front. Or 9


### you can also follow the proce dure for submitting 10


### documents straight to the docket. 11


### We have a timekeeping system that 12


### consists of green, yellow, and red lights to help 13


### you keep track of your five minutes to speak. 14


### When you begin speaking, the green light will 15


### come on. The yellow lig ht will signal that you 16


### have one minute left to speak. When the red 17


### light comes on, your five minutes have passed and 18


### I will ask you to complete your testimony. 19


### Today's hearing is scheduled from 9:00 20


### a.m. and will continue until 8:00 p.m., or later 21



### if ne cessary, depending on the number of 22

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### speakers. 1


### For those who have already registered to 2


### speak, we have tried to accommodate your specific 3


### time. We ask for your patience as we proceed 4


### through the list of speakers. We may need to 5


### make some adjustments as t he day progresses. 6


### If any questions arise through the day, 7


### please see a staff member at the registration 8



### desk table for assistance. 9


### Thank you all for participating in 10


### today's hearing, and let's get started. And with 11


### that, I will call up our first two sp eakers, who 12


### are Alex Bond and Theresa Pugh. 13



### (Pause.) 14



### MR. BOND: Good morning, Erika, Kevin, 15


### and Nick. Good to see you guys again. 16



### I'm Alex Bond, the Director of Air 17


### Quality at the National Mining Association. NMA 18


### represents the producers of most of Ame rica's 19


### coal, metals, industrial and agricultural 20



### minerals. 21


### The current proposal by EPA to establish 22

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### new
- source performance standards to reduce 1


### greenhouse gas emissions from new electric 2


### utility generating sources is not designed to 3


### improve environmental pe rformance, but rather a 4


### rushed attempt to move forward with its 5


### regulatory agenda coupled with a reliance on 6


### untested and undemonstrated technology. 7


### My comments today will highlight the 8


### problems inherent in EPA's decision in setting 9


### its proposed emissions standards, EPA's gamble 10


### with the diversity of America's electric energy 11


### mix, and the impacts of future rulemakings 12


### contained in EPA's proposed rule. 13


### CCS technology is promising, but it 14



### cannot be considered BSER, since it is not 15


### adequately demonstrated. Th e Clean Air Act 16


### provides EPA discretion in establishing standards 17


### of performance for new sources under Section 18


### 111B. Importantly, however, Congress constrained 19



### EPA's standard

- making authority in two important 20


### ways: by requiring every NSPS to be both 21



### achi evable through a best system of emission 22

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### control that has been adequately demonstrated. 1


### EPA has determined, despite lack of 2


### adequate demonstration, that the best system of 3



### emission reduction for new coal units is to force 4



### those units to install carbon catc her and storage 5


### technology in order to meet a standard of 1,100 6


### pounds per megawatt hour of CO2. 7


### While EPA cites several major projects in 8


### determining that CCS is adequately demonstrated 9


### as BSER, these projects are either under 10


### construction and not yet ope rational, such as 11


### Kemper and Boundary Dam; in the planning phase 12


### and facing difficulties, such as HECA and TCEP; 13


### or not designed to function primarily as a power 14


### plant, such as the Great Plains Syn Fuels plant. 15


### The lack of commercially operating 16



### facilities with real

- world performance data 17


### belies the demonstrated nature of these projects 18


### cited by EPA. EPA justifies its decision to 19


### require CCS by asserting that a standard based 20


### upon advanced coal generation technologies, such 21


### as supercritical, ultra

- supercri tical, and 22

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### i ntegrated gasification combined

- cycle 1


### generation, will not result in significant CO2 2


### reductions and will not provide incentive for 3


### technological innovation. 4


### In contrast, EPA contends the regulatory 5


### requirements to use CCS will promote further 6



### d evelopment of the technology. 7


### EPA's reasoning is fatally flawed on both 8


### counts. The utility sector is able to achieve 9


### significant CO2 redu ctions from building highly 10


### advanced and highly efficient coal technologies 11


### that are technically feasible in today's world. 12


### Further, EPA's assertions about the proposed 13


### rule's ability to incentivize technological 14


### innovation are highly questionable in the face of 15


### the unavailability of CCS technology for 16


### commercial power generation. 17


### In EPA's discussion of setting CCS's BS ER 18


### for coal units, EPA argues that setting CCS's 19


### BSER would promote deployment and further 20


### development of the technology. However, EPA's 21


### disparate treatments of new coal plants and 22

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### natural gas base

- load plants in fact sets up a 1


### false choice for utility op erators. 2


### In contrast to the proposed standard for 3


### coal, rather than seeking as much emissions 4


### production as practical from new natural gas 5


### plants, the Agency inexplicably sets a standard 6



### that will allow emissions increases. Advanced 7


### natural gas combined

- c ycle plants have a base

8


### load rating of 760 pounds of CO2 per megawatt 9


### hour, according to the Agency. 10


### Without explanation, EPA therefore 11



### dismisses the emissions reductions that could be 12


### achieved by new SCPC IGCC units while setting a 13



### standard that will allo w IGCC units to actually 14


### increase their emissions by 20 percent above what 15


### the best existing units can achieve. 16


### By offering the choice between CCS

17



### controlled coal on the one hand and uncontrolled 18


### natural gas on the other, EPA is instead 19


### providing a distinc t disincentive and, likely, a 20


### roadblock to further development and deployment 21


### of CCS technologies. Given the cost disparities, 22

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### as admitted by EPA in its levelized cost of 1


### electricity analysis between CCS

- equipped coal 2


### units and natural gas units wi thout C CS, the 3


### proposed NSPS simply irretrievably incentivizes a 4



### further build

- out of natural gas units and 5


### freezes any new investments in the development of 6


### CCS technology. 7


### Further, EPA's proposal gambles with 8


### America's energy future by jeopardizing diversity 9



### in electricity generation. Utility operators 10


### have obligations to their shareholders, 11


### customers, and public utility commissions to 12


### provide low

- cost, or at least affordable, power, 13


### regardless of fuel type. 14


### While utilities also value fuel diversity 15



### in order to hedge their risks against the rising 16


### cost of fuel supplies, be they coal, natural gas, 17


### or otherwise, that diversity must be justified 18


### economically. To put it bluntly, utilities do 19


### not value fuel diversity simply for the sake of 20


### being diverse. They are o bligated to consider 21


### market fundamentals and justify their decisions 22

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### based on sound logic and economics. 1


### By requiring all new coal units to 2


### install and operate CCS, with their admitted high 3


### capital cost of installation, operation, and 4



### maintenance, EPA has constrained the ability of 5


### utilities to justify building new coal units to 6


### address fuel diversity concerns. 7



### CCS is still in first

- of

- a
- kind 8


### developmental stage. And the requirement for 9


### only coal units with the itinerate cost makes CCS 10


### technology economic ally infeasible, effectively 11


### barring utilities from developing CCS projects. 12


### Any meaningful effort to achieve long

13



### term sustainable re duction in global greenhouse 14


### gas emissions will depend on the development and 15


### deployment of new energy technologies, inclu ding 16


### advanced clean coal and CCS. The rapid 17


### development and deployment demonstration of 18


### widespread use of such technologies are of 19


### paramount importance in any reasoned and 20


### effective effort to address climate change 21



### concerns. 22

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### The proposed rule hinders rath er than 1


### helps attain this goal. The proposed rule is 2


### merely step one of EPA's response to the 3


### President's Climate Action Plan, as the Agency 4


### moves forward. The President has given EPA an 5


### incredibly aggressive set of regulatory deadlines 6



### to meet. These t imelines are incredibly tight, 7


### giving very little time for the Agency to fully 8



### consider. 9



### I realize I'm out of time. But we

-- in 10


### closing, I'd urge the Agency to reconsider the 11


### path it has chosen with this proposed rule fo r 12



### all of the above

- stated reasons. 13



### I have a written comment statement here 14



### that I'd like to submit for the record. We will 15


### be submitting more detailed written comments by 16


### the March 10 deadline. So, please stay tuned. 17


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you, Alex. 18


### MR. BOND: Thank you. 19



### (Pause.) 20



### MR. CULL IGAN: Next, Theresa. 21


### MS. PUGH: Good morning. I'm Theresa 22

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### Pugh with the American Public Power Association 1


### representing electric utilities across the U.S. 2


### in 49 states, representing 2,000 utilities, all 3


### owned by municipal and state governments that are 4



### no t for profit. 5


### We thank you for allowing us to testify. 6


### And we commend you for re

- proposing the rule and 7


### this time separating the fuel standards based on 8


### coal and natural gas. 9


### But, as our handout suggests, the new 10


### plant standards are entirely too tight for coal 11



### and cannot be met. This handout reflects the 12


### latest of seven years of technology that have 13



### been built in the United States, and not one of 14



### the new coal plants can meet the 1,100

- pound 15


### standard based on seven years of operation. 16


### And I'm not looking a t 20

- year
- old coal 17


### plants. I'm looking at seven

- year
- old coal 18


### plants. And to our knowledge, nothing in Europe 19



### or Asia will meet it and meet it over time. So I 20



### offer this as a handout, and I sent it in with 21



### our comments. 22

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### Because the delta of 1,100 pounds and 1


### 1,950 pounds is so significant, it puts all the 2


### more emphasis that CCS would have to work. So, 3



### APPA has focused as a laser on CCS for the last 4


### six years. And we've met with EPA or spoken 5


### before EPA at least 13 times on this topic. 6



### There are a wide v ariety of cross

- media 7


### questions, and possibly issues, and possible 8


### regulatory concerns related to pollution in a 9



### cross
- media fashion that need to be addressed by 10



### the EPA. None were. No NEPA

- like analysis, as 11


### required under the Clean Air Act, was done to 12


### look at Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act, 13


### Safe Drinking Water Act, or even lands that would 14


### be precluded from injection underneath, including 15


### national parks. 16


### This is an egregious violation of the 17


### Clean Air Act, by violating NEPA. We can't 18



### believe E PA would make this glaring error. And 19


### we will be watching that specific issue very 20


### carefully. 21



### The fact that EPA failed to do this has 22

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### also been brought up recently before the U.S. 1


### Science Advisory Board. So, the EPA assertion is 2


### that there are four plant s that are operating. 3


### Well, there are not four plants operating in the 4


### entire world with geological sequestration. 5



### We all know and commend that the oil and 6


### gas industry basically recycles CO2 in and out of 7


### formations, in and out of wells. This is great. 8


### No one doubts that it's been done very well by 9


### the oil and gas industry for 40 years. But 10


### that's not the same thing as a power plant. Nor 11


### is it long

- term storage. 12


### So the recycling process may be days, 13


### weeks, months, and perhaps there might even be a 14



### rar e instance where it's crossed over into 15


### perhaps longer than a year. But I'm not aware of 16


### an oil and gas location where the CO2 was 17


### actually held and not moved for a year. If I'm 18


### wrong, I'd be happy to be corrected. 19


### But regardless, that is really not a 20



### de monstration of geologic sequestration, when the 21


### power industry would be held to 50 or 100 or 22

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### 1,000 years of geologic sequestration. 1


### So, EPA's proposed rule points to the 2


### four plans. Well, we not only looked up their 3



### web sites; we called them. And we asked them, 4


### "When can I come out and see the injection?" 5


### "Oh, we're not operating now." 6


### "Really? Well, could you give me an 7


### instance of when you'll be operational?" 8


### So, here are the answers that I got: 9


### SaskPower, April 2014. SaskPower, of course, is 10



### in Cana da and not subject to CERCLA, Super Fund, 11


### any number of other U.S. environmental 12


### regulations. 13


### Kemper project in Mississippi, while we 14


### admire the fact that they are attempting to do 15


### CCS, it's not operational yet. 16


### The third plant, as Alex mentioned, the 17



### Texa s Clean Energy Project near Odessa, which of 18


### course, is an oil and gas recovery area also, 19


### it's not operational. And more importantly, they 20


### have no contract. So if they have no power 21


### purchase agreement, they're not operational, and 22

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### we have no sense of wh en it would be. 1


### Lastly, the California project. They 2



### don ' t even have a construction permit and won't 3


### be applying for it for, I believe, eight months. 4


### And they would not be doing injection for five 5



### years. 6


### APPA asks that yo u withdraw the rule, 7



### remove CCS, and implement a more realistic CO2 8


### limit. Thank you. 9


### MR. CULLIGAN: Can I ask one clarifying 10


### question, Theresa? 11


### MS. PUGH: Certainly. 12


### MR. CULLIGAN: So, are you suggesting 13



### that if we did have a CO2

-- if we did stick with 14



### an 1,100 standard or a standard t hat required 15



### CCS, that we should not allow EOR? Because it 16


### sounded like you didn't think that

-- 17



### MS. PUGH: Oh, we think EOR is terrific. 18


### But it has absolutely no relevance to the 19


### hundreds of power plants across the U.S. that are 20


### not located close to ge ologic formations where 21


### oil and gas recovery can take place. 22

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### MR. CULLIGAN: That's what my question 1


### is. Are you suggesting we shouldn't allow EOR as 2


### a means of sequestration? That's all I'm asking. 3


### For the new plants, not the existing plants. For 4



### the n ew plants, as the rule proposes, we allow 5


### EOR. Are you suggesting we shouldn't? 6


### MS. PUGH: I'm happy for you to allow 7


### EOR. I am not happy if you require that a power 8


### plant be connected to an EOR location. Because 9


### very few

-- 10


### MR. CULLIGAN: Okay. All I 'm asking is, 11


### Theresa, you suggested that EOR doesn't actually 12



### sequester. 13


### MS. PUGH: To my knowledge, EOR does not 14


### sequester more than 100 years. I really don't 15


### know that the oil and gas industry was fully 16


### operational 100 years ago. 17



### MR. CULLIGAN: It woul d be helpful if, in 18


### your comments, you could make it clear whether or 19


### not you think that EOR should be allowed under 20


### the rule, if we had CCS. That's all I'm asking. 21


### Because on one hand you're saying it doesn't 22

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### work. And I'm just not sure if you're sugge sting 1


### that that means we should only allow class 6 2



### wells or that we should allow class 2 wells. 3


### So if you could clarify that in your 4


### comments, we'd appreciate it. 5


### MS. PUGH: Thank you very much. 6


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 7


### Our next two speakers are Laura Kat e 8



### Bender and Theodore Fuller. 9



### (Pause.) 10



### MS. BENDER: Good morning. My name is 11



### Laura Kate Bender. That's B

- e
- n
- d

- e
- r. And I'm 12



### the Healthier Coalition Coordinator for the 13


### American Lung Association in Virginia. On behalf 14


### of our coalition of public health g roups, medical 15


### professionals, and patients with lung disease, 16


### I'm here today to set strong limits on carbon 17


### pollution from new power plants. 18


### The Healthier Coalition is made up of 19


### experts from across the Commonwealth who 20


### understand the impact that air pollu tion has on 21


### human health. In Virginia, much of that air 22

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### pollution is ground

- level ozone. Thanks to EPA, 1


### we know that our levels of this pollutant are 2


### unsafe in many parts of the state. 3


### The American Lung Association uses EPA's 4


### air quality data to give let ter grades to cities 5


### and counties across the country in our State of 6


### the Air Report each year. In our most recent 7


### report, Virginia had five cities or counties that 8


### got failing grades for their ozone levels. In 9


### another five, they got D's. That means that 10


### nearly half of our cities and counties with air 11


### pollution monitoring data last year got a D or an 12



### F for their levels of ozone. 13


### Our report also shows that the three 14


### areas in Virginia with the worst ozone problems 15


### are Northern Virginia, the Richmond metropo litan 16


### area, and the Hampton Roads region. 17


### I can speak firsthand about the impact of 18


### the D.C. area's ozone levels on my own health. I 19


### live in Fairfax County, one of the locations that 20


### got a failing grade on their report. And I have 21


### asthma. So, during ozo ne season, I make a habit 22

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### of checking for air quality alerts before I go 1


### running outside. 2


### It's lucky that I'm usually able to 3


### manage my symptoms by planning ahead and taking 4


### my inhaler. But many that I've met in this area 5


### can't. I've worked with a group in 6


### Fredericksburg called the Pulmonary Pals. 7


### They're a support group for people with chronic 8


### obstructive pulmonary disease, COPD. And many of 9


### them are forced to stay home on hot, smoggy days. 10


### As the group leader put it, "Some days 11


### the air is just too pol luted for a person with 12


### COPD to go outside. No one should have to inhale 13


### polluted air, but a COPD patient like myself is 14


### literally confined to the indoors in order just 15



### to breathe." 16


### High smog levels mean increases in 17


### hospital and emergency room visits. A 18


### respiratory therapist who works at a Fairfax 19


### hospital told me, "Whenever there are code red 20


### days and the air quality is very poor, we at the 21



### facilit y where I work see increased ad missions 22

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### and an increased number in patients coming to the 1


### hospital." 2



### These code red days are harmful for 3


### anyone, but for people with COPD and asthma, 4


### they're particularly dangerous. And Virginia 5


### understands the impact of asthma. 6



### Richmond has the unfortunate honor of 7


### having been name the U.S. Asthma Capital by the 8



### Asthma and Alle rgy Foundation of America, for 9


### three out of the last four years. We work 10


### closely with the Asthma Coalitions of Central 11


### Virginia and of the Greater Roanoke Valley to 12


### help educate people about the links between air 13


### pollution and asthma exacerbation. 14



### I've ta ught children with asthma how to 15


### understand EPA's Air Quality Index, and I've 16


### worked with young asthma awareness advocates to 17



### use the M edica to teach families about the 18


### importance of looking up their daily air quality. 19


### What almost everyone I speak to 20



### under stands, though, especially in Richmond, is 21


### that our kids with asthma can't be truly healthy 22

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### until the air quality improves. 1


### The Healthy Air Campaign has shown that 2


### people in Virginia who care about health care 3


### about cutting dangerous air pollution. More t han 4


### 80 medical professionals from throughout the 5


### Commonwealth have joined us recently by signing a 6


### letter to publicly call for better protections 7


### against smog and other pollutants. 8


### Twenty different medical and public 9


### health groups in Virginia have official ly joined 10


### the coalition, and many more have helped to 11


### spread the word among their staff and patients 12


### that we need to do more to ensure healthy air. 13


### It's clear that cutting carbon pollution 14


### from power plants is a crucial next step. As 15


### carbon pollution buil ds up in the atmosphere, it 16


### leads to higher temperatures. This enhances the 17


### condition for ozone formation. Climate change 18


### could exacerbate the ozone problem in Virginia. 19


### And that's why our coalition of physicians, 20


### nurses, respiratory therapists, and lun g disease 21


### patients and their families is working to support 22

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### limits on carbon pollution from new power plants. 1


### On behalf of the American Lung 2


### Association of Virginia, I urge you to strengthen 3


### your proposed limits. Natural gas combined

- cycle 4


### plan ts should b e held to a tighter standard than 5


### 1,000 pounds per megawatt hour of CO2. And 6



### because coal

- fired plants have such widespread 7


### and dangerous health impacts, and long life 8


### spans, we should not continue to expand our coal

9


### fired generating capacity. 10



### Please act quickly to finalize limits on 11


### carbon pollution from new power plants, and then 12


### propose standards for existing power plants by 13



### June 2014. We must work now to ensure that we 14


### can have a future free of high ozone days. And 15


### our health, especially the health o f those of our 16


### most vulnerable in Virginia, depends on it. 17


### Thank you. 18


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 19


### MR. FULLER: Thank you. Good morning. 20


### My name is Dr. Theodore Fuller. I am a 21


### psychologist in private practice in Washington, 22

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### and my specialty is family and c hild psychology. 1


### And I'm here today on behalf of my patients, many 2



### of them who suffer from asthma as well as other 3


### pulmonary conditions. 4


### And frequently, asthma and the other 5


### types of pulmonary conditions are hereditary, but 6


### in many cases, it is caused by pollutants in the 7


### air. And with many of my patients who do have 8


### these conditions, it complicates their 9


### development, particul arly the children that I 10



### work with . And I'm here on behalf of those 11



### children. 12


### Unfortunately, many of those children are 13


### poor child ren or children of color, who do not 14



### have access to

-- until the Affordable Care Act, 15



### who do not have access to insurance, as well as 16



### not be informed about innovative treatments for 17



### asthma and other conditions. So I'm here to 18


### request and get the EPA's con sideration for 19



### balance or stricter standards in terms of these 20


### gases getting into the atmosphere, affecting our 21



### children, and adults as well. 22

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### I just want to mention, just briefly, 1


### from a standpoint of health, children who suffer 2



### from these conditions who's complicated by the 3


### environment, how it impacts upon their 4


### development. I've worked with adolescents and 5


### children. And many of those children who are in 6


### school, many of them can't go to school because 7


### of attacks, asthma attacks. They're out for 8



### weeks an d weeks. 9


### And of course, when you're out of school, 10


### that does affect your grades. That affects your 11


### academic performance, as well as the stress on 12


### the family in having to deal with a child who is 13


### ill. One of the greatest stressors for families 14


### is dealing with a sick child or a sick adult. 15


### And this really has a tremendous impact upon 16



### families, these kind of conditions. 17



### But it also affects the adolescents, as 18


### children grow up. It affects their adolescence. 19


### I remember as a child growing up in Birmingham, 20



### A labama, where we had a steel factory on the 21


### blocks of my home. And I remember the bellowing 22

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### black smoke throughout my childhood and the 1


### impacts upon my sister, who has asthma. I don't 2


### have asthma, but she did develop it. And I'm 3



### sure that that is becaus e of that, because none 4


### of my other family members had that. But I 5


### remember there were white cars, and you could see 6


### the specks of dust, permanent dust from the 7


### factory. 8


### But the damage from these pulmonary 9


### conditions that are complicated or caused by the 10


### atmosphere can affect the adolescent as well, 11


### which is a very fragile period in development, 12


### particularly when you're growing a sense of 13


### identity. And if you have a sick identity, that 14


### affects how you feel about yourself. That 15


### affects how you relate to o ther teens, which 16


### causes behavioral problems for that child, as 17


### well as personal identity problems. 18


### So I don't really have a lot to say. But 19


### I'm just here on behalf of my patients to 20


### advocate for clean air for them so that they can 21


### start off life healthy. Many of them recover 22

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### from asthma as they grow older. But sometimes, 1


### if they have it and they are continuously exposed 2



### to poor

- quality air, it can go out through life. 3


### So I'm here just to request that you 4



### consider some kind of a balanced standards in 5



### ter ms of these pollutants. 6


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. Thank both of 7



### you. 8


### Our next two speakers are Congresswoman 9


### Shelley Moore Capito and James Duffy. 10



### (Pause.) 11



### MS. CAPITO : Thank you for giving me the 12


### opportunity. I'm Shelley Moore Capito. I 13


### represent the S econd District of West Virginia. 14


### I'd like to begin by thanking the EPA and 15


### Regional Administrator Shawn Garvin for coming to 16


### my community , Charleston, West Virginia, to help 17


### with the water situation there. So I want to get 18



### that on the record. 19


### As you know, West Virginia is an energy 20


### state with more than 22,000 workers in my state 21


### directly working in the coal industry, tens of 22

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### thousands more working in closely related 1


### industries. Coal provides 40 percent of the 2


### power in

-- the electricity in the nation, and 95 3


### percent of the electricity in my State of West 4


### Virginia. It is no stretch to say that the coal 5


### industry is the lifeblood of the state's economy. 6


### The EPA has singled out this, I think, 7


### industry. We have 315 coal units nationally, and 8


### 18 in West Virgin ia have been retired or 9


### converted as a result of coal regulations, 10


### including the Utility MACT Rule. West Virginia 11


### has over 100 fewer coal mines operating today 12



### than it did, and thousands of miners and other 13


### workers have been furloughed and laid off. 14



### The rule under consideration today and 15


### its companion rule for existing coal

- fired power 16


### plants would significantly exacerbate these 17


### economic prob lems. Before I discuss the new 18


### rules, I would like to speak to the impact these 19


### rules would have on West Virginian s working to 20


### provide for their families. 21


### I'm here to speak for the hundreds of 22

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### thousands of West Virginians whose voices, I 1


### feel, have been ignored. All they ask i s for a 2


### chance to do their jobs, provide affordable 3


### energy to their fellow Americans, and no t be 4


### unfairly targeted by having been picked as a 5


### winner or a loser in the energy economy. 6


### I want to express my disappointment that 7


### the EPA has declined multiple invitations that 8


### I've extended to hold a public hearing in the 9


### State of West Virginia. Earlie r this year, the 10


### Agency held 11 such sessions for the existing 11


### coal plants' regulation, not this one, around the 12


### country in New York, Seattle, Chicago, San 13



### Francisco, and here in D.C. 14


### Notably absent from the EPA's list were 15


### the states that rely on coal the most for 16


### affordable, reliable energy. None of the EPA's 17


### listening sessions were held in one of the top 10 18


### states that generate the highest percentage of 19


### electricity from coal. I feel that the folks 20


### that have the livelihoods have been ignored. 21



### Now let's talk about why these rules 22

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### should not be implemented. The greenhouse gas 1


### standard for new coal plants we are considering 2


### today cannot be met by any plant in the nation's 3


### existing fleet. Under this rule, new plants will 4



### have to meet a carbon dioxide limit of 1,100 5


### pounds per megawatt hour. The Long view Power 6


### Plant in Morgantown, West Virginia, is one of the 7


### cleanest coal plants in the country, and it still 8


### exceeds this standard by a significant margin. 9


### In its proposed rule, EPA cites 10


### demonstration project s like the Kemper plant in 11


### Mississippi and the FutureGen project in Illinois 12


### as evidence that its commercially available 13


### carbon capture and storage technology would allow 14


### these coal plants to meet that standard. These 15


### plants, however, have each received t ens of 16


### millions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies at both 17


### federal and state level in order to help spur 18


### development of CCS. 19


### And while I fully, fully support this 20


### research, we cannot rely on taxpayer funding to 21


### bring this technology to every power plant in 22

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### A merica. It's just not feasible. 1


### If we're really interesting in developing 2


### technology, I think we do have innovative 3


### technologies that are more technically and 4


### commercially viable. I've been advocating for 5


### funding for the Department of Energy's Fossil 6



### Ene rgy Research Program. This funding supports 7


### the next generation of clean

- coal technologies 8


### through research conducted at NETL in Morgantown, 9


### West Virginia, and at universities across the 10


### country, including WVU. 11



### Instead, the administration has cut off 12



### fund ing for this fossil energy research at the 13


### same time it proposed regulatory standards that 14


### are unachievable with the existing technologies. 15


### Let me clarify one thing: My opposition 16


### to the greenhouse gas rule should not be taken as 17


### an opposition to all envi ronmental regulation. 18


### As I mentioned, on January the 9th, we had a 19


### chemical spill at Freedom Industries in West 20


### Virginia that left 3,000 people in my state 21



### without water. We understand that there is 22

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### important room for commonsense environmental 1


### regulation s to protect the air we breathe and the 2



### water that we drink. 3



### The rule under consideration, I believe, 4


### does not represent commonsense regulation. It 5


### would choke off a vital American industry by 6


### preventing new coal plants and bringing coal 7


### production that w ould support those plants to a 8



### halt. 9


### I would like to mention there are foreign 10


### competitors. Germany last year built more coal

11


### fired power plants than at any time in the last 12


### two decades. Japan is turning to coal and 13


### natural gas. India and China are buil ding new 14


### coal plants at an astonishing rate. These are 15


### our foreign competitors. Many of these countries 16


### import our coal. West Virginia is the largest 17


### exporting coal than any other state. 18


### And I'm glad that our coal exports do 19


### provide jobs at home in West Virginia. It's 20


### breathtaking that we would stop from using our 21


### own natural resources to provide our country with 22

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### a competitive advantage in the global economy. 1


### West Virginians know that

-- I see the 2


### light there. I'm almost finished. 3


### An energy economy is a jobs economy. 4


### That doesn't mean we don't want regulation. It 5


### means we want regulators to work with us, to 6



### weave that balance between the economy and the 7


### environment. Thank you. 8


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 9


### MR. DUFFY: Good morning. My name is 10



### James Duff y. I'm an attorney with the Clean Air 11



### Task Force. And on behalf of the Clean Air Task 12


### Force, I want to commend EPA on this proposed 13


### rule, which relies on carbon capture and 14


### sequestration as the best system of emissions 15



### reduction for new fossil

- fired boil ers and 16



### IGCC's. 17



### Fossil

- fired EGU's are the leading 18


### stationary source emitter of carbon dioxide, a 19


### dangerous greenhouse gas. Carbon dioxide 20


### contributes significantly to climate change and 21



### climate

- change induced public harms, including 22

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### drought and related a dverse effects on our 1


### agricultural system and water supplies, increases 2



### in serious insect

- borne illness like Lyme's 3



### disease, the increase in severe weather and 4



### weather

- related events like wildfires and 5


### flooding, increased ground

- level ozone , and 6



### adverse ef fects on wildlife and ecosystems. 7


### The pressing need to immediately reduce 8


### carbon emissions is highlighted by the 9


### pollutant's characteristics. It's not only 10


### emitted in large amounts, it's the product of 11


### combustion, not the byproduct of combustion. But 12



### as compared to other pollutants regulated under 13


### the Clean Air Act, carbon dioxide is long lived. 14


### Significant amounts of each ton remain aloft, 15


### causing a climate harm for more than 100 years. 16



### Until reductions in emissions are 17


### achieved, the resulting accumulat ions and 18


### associated damage will continue and grow at 19


### dangerous rates. The need to achieve greenhouse 20


### gas reduct ions, therefore, is immediate. 21


### And we applaud you for taking this 22

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### important first step. The new

- source performance 1


### standard program is meant to pave the way toward 2


### improved air quality, including decreased climate 3


### pollutant emissions. It is to be based on the 4


### best system of emission reductions. 5


### As the courts have said, the NSPS program 6


### should look toward what fairly may be projected 7


### for the regu lated future, rather than the state

8



### of

- the

- art at present. 9


### In order to stimulate and augment the 10


### innovative character of the industry, courts have 11


### further told us that adequately demonstrated 12


### technology, which can be the basis for a 13



### standard, is one which has been shown to be 14


### reasonably reliable, reasonably efficient, and 15


### which can reasonably be expected to serve the 16


### interests of pollution control without becoming 17


### exorbitantly costly in an economic or 18


### environmental way. 19


### This includes systems in use in other 20



### countries, as well as across other industries. 21


### The courts explain that an achievable emission 22

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### limitation on such technology is not one that is 1


### purely theoretical or experimental, but it also 2


### need not be necessarily routinely achieved within 3


### the industry prior to its adoption. 4


### As you have recognized in the standard, 5


### CCS is adequately demonstrated, based on the 6


### record before the Agency. And emissions limits 7


### based on these technologies are available. The 8


### standard set by EPA would require a capture rate 9



### of 30 to 50 percent. 10


### Southern Company's 582

- megawatt plant in 11


### Mississippi will capture 65 percent of its carbon 12


### pollution, and it is expected to go online this 13


### year. The Summit Power's Texas Clean Energy 14


### Project, a 400

- megawatt power plant, will capture 15


### 90 p ercent of its carbon pollution. 16


### But far from relying solely on these 17


### recent U.S. projects, which have received some 18


### subsidy like other energy technologies, EPA's 19


### technical support documents for this rule 20


### demonstrate that the Agency relies, in fact, on 21



### vari ous compo nents of CCS technology systems 22

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### which are in use around the world in many large

1


### scale applications, including integrated 2


### applications. 3


### The MIT Technology Report, the MIT 4


### reports that there are 24 large

- scale CCS 5


### projects worldwide, 7 of which are in the U.S. 6



### and Canada. And CCS is also available as a 7


### retrofit technology on conventional coal plants. 8


### The Boundary Dam Facility, a 110

- megawatt power 9


### plant with full CCS, is going to be online early 10


### this year. 11


### SaskPower is already looking to expand 12



### its CCS operations two more units, and the 13


### project operators think that lessons learned from 14


### this plant will mean that in the future, this 15


### technology may be up to 30 percent cheaper. 16


### Finally, the bulk of future CO2 emissions 17


### come from sources that exist today . We are 18


### encouraged that EPA has begun taking steps toward 19


### reducing CO2 emissions from the existing fleet as 20



### a much

- needed next step. 21


### As Senator Booker recently stated with 22

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### respect to carbon pollution and climate change, 1


### the idea that corporations should be allowed to 2


### privatize their profits and socialize their costs 3


### has got to stop. These standards take 4


### appropriate steps toward placing the 5


### responsibility of addressing carbon pollution on 6


### the carbon polluters. 7


### Thank you for this opportunity to comment 8



### on this critically important and historic rule. 9


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you both. 10


### Our next two speakers are Gretchen 11


### Dahlkemper Alfonso and Kate Addleson. 12



### (Pause.) 13


### MS. ALFONSO: Good morning. My name is 14


### Gretchen Dahlkemper Alfonso, and I'm the National 15



### Field Di rector for Moms Clean Air Force. We are 16


### an organization of over 200,000 parents who have 17


### banded together to protect our children's health 18


### from the threat of toxic air pollution. 19


### On behalf of our membership today, I want 20


### to thank the EPA for holding today' s hearing and 21


### engaging with eve ryday parents, just like myself 22

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### -- p arents with asthmatic children, parents 1


### struggling to put food on their table, parents 2


### who are fed up with an industry that has been 3


### allowed for far too long to spew harmful 4


### greenhouse gase s into our atmosphere with little 5



### to no concern for the health and welfare of 6



### American families. 7


### The world we are leaving our kids is one 8


### that would keep any parent up at night. On 9


### behalf of my own children, I want to thank the 10


### EPA today for moving ahead to set the first

- ever 11


### limits on carbon pollution. I am a mom to three 12


### small children, all who will be directly impacted 13


### in a positive way by these carbon emissions 14



### standards

. 15


### And to remind everyone today of why we 16


### are here, I'll give you a small glimpse i nto my 17


### own very real American home. My oldest, Renaldo, 18



### is a fun

- loving active four

- year
- old. He loves 19


### to go to my hometown of Erie, Pennsylvania, and 20



### swim in the Great Lakes. 21



### This summer, I sat on the beach and I 22

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### wondered about where climate change will leave 1


### the Great Lakes Region. Will toxic algae blooms 2


### threaten the tourism industry? Will climate 3


### change bring about more unpredictable seasons, 4


### wreaking havoc on everyday lives? Personally, I 5


### can't handle my kids being home anymore. They've 6



### been home far too often lately. 7


### Our rapidly changing climate is directly 8


### linked to human activity, a nd cutting carbon is 9



### crucial, is a crucial step in addressing climate 10



### change. 11


### Fiona is my middle daughter. She's two. 12


### She had her first asthmatic episode shortly 13



### b efore her first birthday. For her sake, and for 14


### the nearly one in five children in my home state 15


### of Pennsylvania suffering from asthma, it is time 16


### to set healthy and safe levels of carbon 17


### pollution. Increases in high

- heat days and 18


### ground

- level ozone are dangerous for children , 19


### like my Fiona, who suffer from respiratory 20



### illness. 21


### My youngest, Decklan (phonetic) , is only 22

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### nine months old. He suffers from mast cell 1


### disease. With the warming climate, allergy 2


### seasons have become increasingly longer and more 3



### di fficult for people to manage. Even on daily 4


### medication, his little body can barely cope with 5


### allergy triggers as is. And I am extremely 6



### worried for our future if we don't slow the 7


### threat of climate change. 8


### As a mom, I actually want to give the EPA 9



### some a dvice today. Cleaning up our air at this 10


### point is similar to trying to clean up my 11


### playroom with my toddlers in tow. So I urge you: 12



### Work harder, work smarter, and work faster. I 13


### urge you today to move forward to finalize these 14


### carbon pollution standard s for new

- source power 15


### plants, and move ahead without reservation to 16


### limit carbon pollution from existing sources. 17


### The time to clean up the air for the 18


### health of our children is now. And I thank you 19


### today for working , and throughout the coming 20



### year , to se t strong carbon standards on pollution 21



### from fossil

- fuel

- powered plants. Thank you very 22

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### much. 1


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 2


### MS. ADDLESON: Hi. My name is Kathleen 3


### Pollard Addleson. I'm here today representing 4


### myself. And I'm also here to represent the 5



### hundr eds of Virginians that I've spoken with on 6


### this topic who cannot be here today. 7


### I appreciate the opportunity to testify 8


### and would mainly like to use it to thank everyone 9


### here at the EPA and beyond whose diligence and 10


### patience has gone into the difficult ta sk of 11


### setting these proposed standards. Your hard work 12


### is so deeply appreciated. 13


### Those of us watching this process unfold 14


### have no illusions about the challenge of setting 15



### standards that are strong enough to protect 16


### public health while respecting the limit ations of 17


### our technology and infrastructure. You are on 18


### the front lines of developing a new energy 19


### paradigm for our country which will, hopefully, 20


### set a positive example for other countries and 21


### eventually change the energy paradigm around the 22

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### world. 1



### Nothi ng worth doing comes easy. But the 2


### effort always pays off. Thank you for your 3


### persistence, and please keep up the good work. 4


### As Program Manager with the Virginia 5


### Sierra Club, I have the privilege of meeting with 6


### countless of Virginians who are anxious to see 7


### limits on carbon pollution

-- parents whose 8



### children suffer from asthma, not unlike Gretchen, 9



### fishermen con cerned about the health of the b ay 10


### and our rivers, young professionals trying to get 11


### a foothold in emerging energy industries, 12



### teachers and loca l officials trying to educate 13


### their students and peers about the need to reduce 14



### our use of fossil fuels. 15


### In fact, recent polling has shown that 16


### not only the majority of Virginians, but the 17


### majority of Americans are eager to reduce our use 18



### of fossil fuels i n order to reduce carbon 19


### pollution and other greenhouse gas emissions that 20


### they see are changing the climate around them. 21


### The American people, on the whole, are 22

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### behind you, despite the refusal of many of our 1


### elected leaders to acknowledge it. Evidence of 2


### that is in average Americans' recognition of 3


### these issues and changing their own personal 4


### behavior to reflect their concerns, doing what 5


### they can do personally to reduce their carbon 6


### footprints every day. But we rely on our 7


### governments to reform our polic ies and require 8


### our utility companies to do the same. 9


### Finalizing these standards is one of the 10


### most important things that the EPA has the power 11


### to do at this time, and we really appreciate 12


### everything that you're doing to achieve this 13


### goal. 14


### While we are gra teful also to the 15


### companies who provide our power, every business 16


### reaches a point where it must adapt to stay 17


### relevant in a changing time. Although it is 18


### somewhat more difficult to measure, the pollution 19


### affecting our communities comes with great cost. 20



### T ransitioning to a clean energy economy will make 21



### us more sustainable and resilient. 22

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### It is not surprising that the coal 1


### industry is putting up a fight. These companies 2


### see their electric opportunities in danger of 3


### shrinking after hundreds of years of being the 4


### dominant fuel source. But the future wellbeing 5


### of a whole community, much less a whole society, 6


### cannot be determined by the potential lost 7


### profits of any one interest. 8


### That is why you should not let your 9


### consideration of one industry trump factors li ke 10


### public health, accessibility to clean air and 11


### water, and protecting sustainable agriculture. 12


### The stakes are high, which is all the 13



### more reason the decision to act now is so 14


### critical. Please be assured that you are on the 15


### right track. Because for every one American who 16


### says these standards will do more harm than good, 17


### or questions the need for them, there are two who 18


### support your efforts or think the government 19


### should be doing more. 20


### I was raised to respect and appreciate 21


### the beauty of America and always leave a place 22

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### better than I found it. I feel that that's what 1


### the EPA is setting out to do with these 2


### standards, and appreciate your efforts. The 3


### majority of us are extremely grateful. 4


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you. Thank 5



### you. 6



### (Pause.) 7



### MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 8


### L. Jeremy Richardson and Howard Feldman. 9



### MR. RICHARDSON: Thanks, Kevin, Nick, and 10



### Erika. 11


### My name is Jeremy Richardson, and I'm a 12


### Senior Energy Analyst at the Union of Concerned 13


### Scientists. USC is the nation's leading science

14



### b ased nonprofit organ for a health y environment 15



### and a safer world. 16


### I have a unique perspective on reducing 17


### greenhouse gas emissions from burning of fossil 18


### fuels. As a scientist, I understand the urgency 19


### to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to protect the 20


### pla net's climate. 21


### As the brother, son, and grandson of West 22

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### Virginia coalminers, the question of exactly how 1


### we tackle climate change is deeply personal to 2



### me. 3



### First, on behalf of UCS's more than 4


### 350,000 supporters, I want to say today that we 5


### strongly suppor t the Environmental Protection 6


### Agency's efforts to limit carbon emissions from 7



### fossil

- fuel

- fired plants under the Clean Air Act. 8


### Simultaneously, I want to emphasize the need for 9


### special consideration for the families and 10


### communities facing the negative co nsequences of 11



### the transition to a cleaner low

- carbon energy 12



### system. 13



### Human

- induced climate change is already 14


### having impacts that are being felt by people here 15



### in American and around the world. If we 16


### collectively fail to make deep reductions in our 17



### carbon e missions, we will greatly increase the 18



### risk of serious economic, health, and 19


### environmental consequences from accelerating sea 20


### level rise, storm surges, heat waves, drought, 21


### wildfires, more frequent heavy downpours, and 22

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### increased hurricane intensity. 1



### These impacts are a direct consequence of 2


### the increasing concentration of greenhouse gases 3


### like carbon dioxide in our planet's atmosphere. 4


### Power plants are the largest single U.S. source 5


### of carbon dioxide emissions, representing about 6


### 40 percent of the total. Reducing emissions from 7


### the electric power sector is therefore crucial to 8


### our overall efforts to tackle climate change. 9


### These facts compel us to act and to act 10


### decisively. In doing so, we must recognize that 11


### some regions of our country are facing a heavie r 12



### burden than others in acceler ating this 13



### transition to a less

- fossil

- intensive electricity 14



### sy stem. 15


### The standard for new natural gas power 16


### plants, 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide per 17


### megawatt hour, could be reduced to 850, a level 18


### that is already achievable by new natural gas 19



### combined

- cycle plants. With the proposed limit 20


### of 1,100 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour for new 21



### coal

- fired power plants, EPA has established 22

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### partial carbon capture and sequestration, CCS, as 1


### the best system of emission reductions, leav ing 2



### room for coal with CCS in our future electric 3


### power mix. 4


### In setting the standard, EPA has chosen a 5



### sensible middle

- of

- the

- road approach. CCS is a 6


### viable technological solution. Although not yet 7


### commercially deployed at scale with a large coal 8


### plant, the component technologies have been 9


### commercially demonstrated, and many projects are 10


### under development in the U.S. and around the 11



### world. 12


### Regardless of the EPA's carbon standard, 13



### EI A projects that very few coal plants will be 14


### built anyway. The reason is s imple. Multiple 15


### market forces are making coal

- fired power too 16


### expensive relative to other, cheaper, less

17


### polluting options like natural gas, renewable 18


### energy, and energy efficiency. 19


### It is also critical that EPA stay on the 20



### timeline that President Obama se t forth to 21


### develop carbon pollution standards for existing 22

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### power plants, the main source of current 1


### emissions. UCS recommends a strong and flexible 2


### standard that will allow renewable energy and 3


### energy efficiency to play a significant role in 4


### achieving dee p carbon emissions reductions at an 5



### affordable cost. 6


### This will help lower the cost of 7


### compliance and avoid an over

- reliance on natural 8


### gas, which comes itself with significant 9



### economic, climate, health, and environmental 10



### risks. 11


### To do this effectively and to lower the 12


### overall costs of compliance further, EPA must 13


### adopt a systems

- based approach to regulating 14


### emissions from the power sector as a whole, 15



### instead of a source

- based approach, which focuses 16


### only on reductions possible at the regulated 17



### fossil

- fired plants. 18


### States have a major role to play in 19


### developing implementation plans for carbon 20


### standards. Together with federal policy makers, 21


### states should help ensure that economic 22

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### diversification and resources for worker 1


### transition are an important part of the ir plan. 2


### MR. CULLIGAN: Could you try to wrap up? 3


### I'm sorry. You're at five minutes. 4



### MR. HUTSON: No, he's not. 5


### MR. CULLIGAN: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. 6


### MR. RICHARDSON: In doing so, together we 7


### can not only establish a strong standard to 8


### protect the planet 's climate, but also ensure 9



### that workers and communities have fresh economic 10


### opportunities as market forces drive a shift away 11



### from coal. 12


### I do not accept this as an either

– or 13


### proposition. Our children and grandchildren will 14


### face the risks of a vastly diff erent climate 15


### caused by our failure to act to reduce emissions 16


### today. My young niece, and maybe some day her 17


### children and grandchildren, will face an 18


### uncertain future if we don't get the second part 19


### right, too. It is much harder, but it is 20


### imperative that we do both. Thank you. 21


### MR. CULLIGAN: Sorry for interrupting 22

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### you. I was misreading the light. 1


### MR. FELDMAN: Good morning. I'm Howard 2



### Feldman with the American Petroleum Institute. 3


### Thank you for this opportunity to talk to you 4


### today. 5


### As you know, API h as actively 6


### participated in previous greenhouse gas listening 7


### sessions in 2011, 2013. We provided detailed 8


### comments in 2012. So we're an active player in 9


### this area. I'd like to make a couple of 10


### overarching points. 11


### Number one. This regulatory effort goe s 12


### beyond the authorization of Congress and the 13


### Clean Air Act, period. 14


### Overarching point number two. API is 15


### concerned about how any rules may impact 16


### electricity prices, impact fuel supply and 17


### demand, set precedents for other sectors, and 18


### affect tertiary oi l recovery. We hav e special 19



### concerns as the API. 20



### We have members who have facilities that 21



### differ from most EGU's. For example, we have co

22

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### gen operations embedded in our facilities, very 1


### often. Some refineries use refineries gas, some 2


### use natural gas, bu t those are actual facilities 3


### that could, ultimately, get wrapped into rules 4


### for EGU's. And some EGU regulations may not be 5


### appropriate for our industry. 6


### Furthermore, our members have experience 7



### with EOR that can be shared with EPA, and we'd be 8


### happy to w ork with EPA on that. So that's 9


### something we're offering right now. 10


### We have several policy points we'd like 11


### to make. One, EPA is not compelled to proceed 12


### with the proposed rule. We think, if anythi ng, 13



### EPA should be issuing an advanced notice of 14


### proposed rulemaking before moving forward. 15


### We think that EPA cannot proceed because 16


### it has not made a significant

-- not made a 17


### finding that a significant contribution of 18


### endangerment determination for GHG's exists from 19


### the regulated source category. 20



### EPA cannot us e Section 111 to regulate 21


### fuel choice with the practical consequence of 22

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### trying to remove one fuel type from the mix. 1


### And we think EPA has failed to do any 2


### meaningful cost

– benefit analysis in any of the 3


### GHG rules. We think, from a technology 4


### perspective, E PA should not mandate the use of 5


### any specific control equipment. If anything 6


### should be proposed, it should be achievable 7


### energy efficiency measures. 8


### CCS is not adequately demonstrated, and 9



### therefore not the SER for GHG emissions. EPA 10



### should not mandate t echnologies that are simply 11


### unproven and yet have not been determined to be 12


### backed anyplace. 13


### The oil and gas industry successfully 14



### uses CO2 EOR in some locations. Based on our 15


### experience, there are significant technical, 16


### regulatory, and policy roadblocks to scaling up 17


### capture transportation and sequestration across 18


### the EGU fleet. We think any proposals should be 19


### consistent with the tailoring rule. 20



### Furthermore, we think there's no need to 21



### move this GHG NSPS to other sectors. EPA has no 22

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### binding authority t o issue 111B proposals in this 1


### case or certainly on any other sectors. 2


### And moving on to the manufacturing 3



### sector, we think the EGU's, of course, are about 4


### 10 times larger than any other manufacturing 5


### sector. And manufacturing sectors already 6


### strongly ince ntivize by energy efficiency to 7


### reduce energy use and GHGs. And GHG NSPS would 8


### be very inefficient and inappropriate for 9


### manufacturing due to their trade exposure. 10


### Especially the refinery industry is 11


### already strongly incentivized towards energy 12


### efficiency . Energy is the second

- largest cost of 13



### refineries. Less

- efficient refineries have 14


### closed over recent years. 15


### The refinery industry also is already 16


### impacted by a blizzard of regulations from EPA. 17


### Coming up now, we're expecting the Tier 3 rule to 18



### come out, which will increase GHG emissions from 19


### refineries. So you're putting a rule in place 20



### that will have that effect. And the refining 21


### industry is much more complex than EGU's. 22

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### So , in closing, we'd like to say that 1


### imposing GHG NSPS on utilities, and later o n 2


### manufacturing industries, including refineries, 3


### is unnecessary. It is poor public policy, will 4


### likely cost the country jobs. And ANPR instead 5


### should be used instead of the current proposal, 6


### along with sufficient notice and comment periods, 7


### which altoge ther may help preclude any unintended 8


### consequences. Thank you. 9


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you. 10


### And, Howard, one of the things you 11


### mentioned was the potential that the definition 12


### for EGU's could bring in co

- generators at 13



### refineries and other industries. It would 14


### definitely be helpful

-- I presume you guys are 15


### going to submit written comments? 16



### MR. FELDMAN: Yes, we will. 17


### MR. CULLIGAN: It would be helpful if you 18


### guys could

-- if one of the things you c ould 19



### address is if the current as
- proposed definition, 20


### if applied to existing sources, would do that. 21


### And how you think it

-- 22

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### MR. FELDMAN: The answer is yes, and we 1



### will address that in our comments. 2


### MR. CULLIGAN: That would be very 3


### helpful. Thank you. 4


### MR. FELDMAN: So, you have to remember 5


### that as you'r e going forward with the rule. 6



### MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 7


### Zoe Berkery and Chelsea Tu. 8


### MS. BERKERY: I'm Zoe Berkery

. 9



### MR. CULLIGAN: Do we have Chelsea Tu? 10



### (Pause.) 11



### MR. CULLIGAN: Go ahead. 12


### MS. BERKERY: Thank you for the 13


### opportunity to partic ipate in this public hearing 14


### on the Environmental Protection Agency's carbon 15


### dioxide emissions limits for new power plants. 16


### My name is Zoe Berkery, and I am a policy 17



### associate with the Business Council for 18


### Sustainable Energy. The Business Council for 19



### Sust ainable Energy is a coalition of companies 20


### and trade associations from the energy 21


### efficiency, natural gas, and renewable energy 22

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### sectors, and also includes independent electric 1


### power producers, investor

- owned utilities, public 2


### power, commercial end users, a nd environmental 3


### and energy market service providers. 4



### Founded in 1992, the council advocates 5


### for policies at the state, national, and 6



### international levels that increase the use of 7


### commercially available clean energy technologies, 8


### products, and services. 9



### Th e coalition's diverse business 10


### membership is united around the revitalization of 11


### the economy and the creation of a secure and 12


### sustainable energy future for America. 13


### BCSE applauds the EPA's release of 14



### revised standards for carbon emissions from new 15



### sources under Section 111B of the Clean Air Act. 16


### Clean energy technologies, the energy efficiency, 17


### renewable energy, and natural gas sectors offer 18


### commercially available options to reduce 19



### emissions. 20


### Clarity from EPA on standards from power 21


### plant emissions will he lp inform investment 22

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### decisions in the power sector. EPA's carbon 1


### standards will send signals to the market to 2


### utilize a broad portfolio of clean energy 3


### technologies and will lead to job creation in 4



### these sectors. 5


### The BCSE believes it is important to note 6


### the revised carbon rules for new power plants 7


### continue to utilize output

- based standards, which 8


### is critical to spur investment in energy 9


### efficiency and clean generation in the power 10


### sector. The council strongly supports output

11



### based standards and commends EPA for adopting 12


### this approach in their revised new

- source carbon 13



### rule. 14



### In addition, a look back at the last five 15


### years shows that clean energy sources are 16


### contributing to reductions in U.S. greenhouse gas 17


### emissions. Energy efficiency, renewable energy, 18


### and natural gas are mainly responsible for the 19


### mainly 10 percent decline in U.S. greenhouse gas 20


### emissions since 2005, taking the country more 21


### than halfway to President Obama's goal of 22

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### achieving a 17 percent reduction in emissions by 1



### 2020. 2


### As such, in regar ds to EPA's pending rule 3


### on the regulation of carbon from existing 4


### sources, BCSE recommends that energy efficiency, 5


### including combined heat and power, waste heat to 6


### power, and utilization of waste heat recovery, 7


### the full set of renewable energy options, as well 8


### as natural gas and propane, be made eligible as 9


### compliance options under the EPA guidelines for 10


### limiting carbon dioxide emissions from existing 11


### power plants. 12


### Not only will the use of these 13


### technologies help to reduce emissions and service 14



### cost

- effect ive compliance options, they will also 15


### help grow the economy, create jobs, and 16


### strengthen our energy system through its 17



### diversification. 18


### Thank you so much for your time. 19



### MR. CULLIGAN: Thanks. Just want to 20



### check one more time. Is Chelsea here? 21



### (Pause.) 22

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### M S. TU: Hi. Good morning. Hi. My name 1


### is Chelsea Tu, and I'm legal fellow for the 2


### Center for Biological Diversity , a n ational 3



### e nvironmental a dvocacy o rganization. I'm here to 4


### deliver the center's top

- line comments regarding 5



### the EPA's new carbon standar ds for new power 6


### plants. 7


### First, we'd like to emphasize the 8


### proposed rule does not achieve the emissions 9


### reductions necessary in light of both climate 10


### science and the requirements of the Clean Air 11


### Act. In fact, it won't achieve meaningful 12



### emissions reducti ons at all. 13



### Scientists tell us that we must reduce 14


### emissions quickly and dramatically in order to 15


### preserve a likely chance of avoiding the worst 16


### impacts of climate disruption. EPA acknowledges 17


### that the Clean Air Act requires the Agency to set 18



### new
- source p erformance standards that would 19



### achieve the maximum feasible emissions 20



### reductions. 21


### Yet EPA has proposed a standard that, by 22

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### its own admission, will result in negligible CO2 1


### emissions changes between now and 2022. This is 2


### because the EPA expects nearly all new EGU's to 3



### be NG CC units, due to the wide availability and 4


### low price of natural gas as a result of new 5


### drilling methods. The bottom line is we cannot 6


### frack our way out of climate change. 7



### Second, the proposed rule contains no 8


### meaningful emissions reduct ions for natural gas 9


### plants, particularly to NGCC plants the EPA 10


### anticipates will make up for the vast majority of 11


### new plants built over the next eight years. 12


### If EPA is correct, that few, if any, coal 13


### plants will be built, and at least some will be 14



### built w ill have at least partial CCS, then EPA's 15



### CCS

- based standards for coal plants will not 16


### meaningfully reduce emissions from the power 17


### sector. Accordingly, any meaningful reductions 18



### will have to come from the standards for natural 19


### gas combustion plants becau se these are the 20


### plants EPA expects to be built. 21


### EPA's proposed standards could be met by 22

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### more than 90 percent of existing NGCC plants. 1



### The standards thus run counter to the factors 2



### that the courts have said EPA must consider in 3


### setting an NSPS, particula rly the requirements 4



### that a standard must result in maximum feasible 5


### emissions reductions and that it must promote new 6


### technology. 7


### The proposed rule contains no analysis of 8


### how or whether greater NGCC efficiencies and 9



### therefore lower emissions standards ar e 10


### achievable at a reasonable cost. Again, the mere 11


### availability of cheap natural gas cannot suffice 12


### to meet the Clean Air Act's requirements. 13


### Finally, the proposed rule is riddled 14


### with unjustified exceptions and loopholes. EPA 15


### has exempted modifications and reconstructions of 16


### existing sources from the proposed standards, 17


### even though the Clean Air Act defines these as 18


### new sources that should be subject to the 19



### standards. 20


### The rule also provides special coal plant 21


### exemptions. EPA has exempted at least one, a nd 22

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### as many as three, specific new coal

- fired plants 1


### from the standards based on unsupported developer 2



### claims about construction status that EPA itself 3


### has not bothered to verify. 4


### Regarding biomass, EPA correctly proposes 5


### to treat biogenic CO2 the same as f ossil CO2 in 6


### determining compliance with the standards. 7



### However, EPA has failed to set a standard that 8


### includes biomass power plants, which can emit 9


### more than three times as much CO2 per megawatt 10


### hour from the stack as natural gas plants. 11



### Unlike other ren ewable generation 12


### facilities, biomass power plants contribute 13


### significant amounts of CO2 to the atmosphere and 14


### should be subject to emissions standards. 15


### This concludes our topic and comments. 16


### And the comments may not represent the center's 17


### final position on this matter. The center will 18



### also submit final written comments to the EPA. 19


### Thank you so much for your time. 20


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you very much. 21



### (Pause.) 22

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### MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 1


### Nancy Ross and Jacqueline Patterson. 2



### MS. ROSS: Hello. I'm Nancy Ross. I'm 3


### speaking on behalf of myself. I have done a lot 4


### of traveling abroad, and to see the effects of 5


### pollution in countries where you have been is 6



### incredible. 7


### We do not need to have the type of 8



### situations that are in China, where we're talk ing 9


### about very expensive ways of correcting air 10


### pollution from use of coal and other energy. And 11



### so, I recommend

-- I'm not a technical expert. I 12


### have a Ph.D. in political science, nothing to do 13



### with the scientific foundations of this. 14



### But I know that Am erica is very creative. 15


### And if we have tough standards, the industry will 16


### come up with ways to solve the problems. We are 17


### not a country that is not able to find the ways 18


### of doing things. 19



### And we do have alternatives. I did a 20


### little sort of beginning anal ysis of what it 21


### would do to the economy if we just gave free 22

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### solar panels to all roofs that were at all 1


### qualified. And it would have solved some of the 2


### problems that we had for energy. So I mean, we 3



### can
-- there are alternatives. We do not have to 4


### jeopa rdize our children's future, their health, 5


### and other commodities. Thank you very much. 6


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. You can stay. 7


### MS. PATTERSON: Okay. So, my name is 8


### Jacqueline Patterson. I'm with the NAACP. And 9


### according to the cold

- blooded report rele ased by 10


### the indigenous environmental network, the Little 11


### Village Environmental Justice Organization, and 12


### the NAACP in 2012, approximately 70 percent of 13



### African Americans live within 30 miles of a coal

14


### fired power plant. 15



### This means African Americans are 16



### dis proportionately living in circumstances where 17


### the millions of tons of carbon pollution coming 18


### from these plants create what scientists call "a 19


### dome effect," resulting in trapping, 20


### concentrating, and intensifying the myriad toxins 21


### we already breathe every d ay. 22

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### With the mercury, arsenic, lead, dioxins, 1


### and other pollutants that already come from power 2


### plants, these domes effectively create lethal gas 3



### chambers for communities nationwide. We see the 4


### results of this in the rates of respiratory 5



### illnesses in Afri can Americans. Even though we 6


### have lower smoking rates, African Americans are 7


### more likely to die of lung disease. 8



### Nationwide, our children are three times 9


### more likely to be admitted to hospital for an 10


### asthma attack and twice as likely to die of 11



### asthma att acks. In some areas, the statistics 12



### are even worse. At the same time, carbon dioxide 13



### is the number

- one driver of climate change. And 14


### power plants are the leadi ng emitters of carbon 15



### dioxide. 16



### When I did hurricane relief after 17



### Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, the throngs of folks 18


### who walk through the doors of disaster recovery 19


### centers every day were largely African American. 20



### And it was the same when I did tornado relief in 21


### Alabama. Because unfortunately, African 22

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### Americans are among the groups that are most 1



### vu lnerable to disaster impacts. 2


### In recent years, we've seen farmers from 3


### Texas to Illinois to Iowa to Mississippi and 4


### beyond lose crops both to floods and to droughts. 5


### And we know that the West is experiencing record 6


### droughts right now. At the same time as our food 7


### supply is being threatened, we recognize the 8


### differential vulnerability of Latino and African 9


### American children who are already living in food 10


### deserts with high rates of hunger due to lack of 11



### access to nutritious foods. 12



### I've visited the coastal c ommunities from 13



### Thibodaux, Louisiana, to Kivalina, Alaska, who 14


### are already experiencing coastal erosion and are 15


### facing displacement in the next 20 years due to 16


### sea level rise. And scientists say that we've 17


### only begun to see these impacts. 18



### The cost of inac tion on carbon pollution 19


### is clear, with vulnerable communities being hit 20



### first and worst. At the same time, we can't 21


### afford to pay the cost of putting old wine in new 22

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### wineskins, to quote the Bible. Carbon

- capture 1


### sequestration is unproven. It doesn't ad dress 2



### the cradle

- to

- grave harms caused by processing 3


### coal for electricity production, and it is 4


### grossly expensive, as demonstrated by the gross 5



### cost overruns at the Kem p er County plant in 6


### Mississippi. This money should instead go to 7


### research and developme nt for storage and 8


### transmission of clean energy. 9


### The history of decades of pollution from 10


### coal plants is one of the leading reasons that we 11


### are now at the brink of generalized catastrophic 12


### climate change, a level of destruction many of us 13


### are already exper iencing. By enacting strong 14


### pollution standards, we must get this situation 15


### under control for all of our sakes. Thank you. 16


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 17


### Our next two speakers are Paul Ferguson 18



### and Seth Heald. 19



### MR. FERGUSON: Good morning. I'm Paul 20



### Ferguson. I'm the Clerk of the Circuit Court in 21


### Arlington County, Virginia, formerly Chairman of 22

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### the Arlington County Board, which is our local 1


### governing authority. 2


### I want to thank you for having this 3


### hearing. I would say that I'm impressed in how 4



### it runs on time and people can sign up for a slot 5


### and get in and out and get back to work. So, 6


### congratulations on the efficiency of the hearing. 7


### Quite simply, we

-- I am here in support 8


### of the President's proposal and the EPA proposal 9



### to limit carbon emissions on existi ng power 10


### plants. If we as a nation are serious about 11


### reducing greenhouse gas emissions, we have to 12


### regulate existing power plants. If we do not do 13


### this, then there's continued incentive to patch 14


### up the old power plants and not invest in the new 15



### ones. 16



### We are, as a nation, I believe, making 17


### progress in the field of auto efficiency and 18


### truck efficiencies. But we probably have not 19


### made the progress that we should as far as 20


### regulating emissions from power plants. I know 21



### there's details to be worked out. The re's 22

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### certainly more that could be done. But the more 1


### important thing is that it is being addressed and 2


### that we don't delay further. 3


### So, thank you for providing the 4


### opportunity for Arlington County to go on record 5


### as supporting the President's proposal and EPA 6


### proposal. 7


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 8


### MR. HEALD: Good morning. My name is 9



### Seth Heald. I'm the Vice Chair of the Sierra 10


### Club's Virginia Chapter. Virginia is a coal 11



### state. A substantial amount of coal is mined in 12


### Virginia, and our largest utility, Do minion 13


### Resources, burns a lot of coal, making Dominion 14


### the largest carbon dioxide emitter in the 15



### Commonwealth. 16


### But Virginia is also a coastal state. A 17


### huge portion of Virginia's economy is connected 18


### to military, industrial, and tourism facilities 19


### along th e entire coast, and particularly in the 20


### Hampton Roads area, which includes Norfolk and a 21



### number of other towns around that area. 22

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### Hampton Roads and these facilities face 1



### serious threats from the sea level rise and 2



### severe storms that are and will be caused i n 3


### large part by carbon dioxide emissions. Among 4



### our crucial threatened infrastructure in that 5


### area are Naval Station Norfolk, the largest naval 6


### base in the world, and Newport News S hipbuilding, 7


### the sole facility where America's aircraft 8



### carriers are built and refueled. 9


### Also on Virginia's coast a little farther 10


### up is Nassau's facility at Wallops Island, on 11


### Virginia's Eastern Shore. It's similarly at 12


### great risk from climate change. Now, these are 13


### just a few examples. There are many other 14


### military, industr ial, and tourism

- related 15


### facilities along the coast that are either at or 16


### very close to sea level and in grave danger right 17



### now. 18



### Last week, I attended a conference on sea 19


### level rise at the College of William and Mary in 20


### Williamsburg. We heard of the grave threats to 21


### the military facilities and other facilities in 22

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### Virginia's coastal areas. We heard from speakers 1



### like Rear Admi ral Jonathan White, who is the 2



### O ceanographer of the Navy. He spoke very 3


### compellingly about the threats that our nation 4



### faces becaus e of the sea level rise, which in the 5


### Hampton Roads area is particularly serious, one 6


### of the two or three most serious, seriously 7



### affected areas in the United States and one of 8



### the most in the world. 9



### We also heard from Joe Bouchard, former 10



### naval

-- former Commander of Naval Station 11


### Norfolk, who talked about the efforts to try to 12


### make that base more resilient. It's going to 13


### cost a lot of money. It's possible that it may 14


### not even succeed. This is a huge effect on our 15


### economy, both America's economy and Vir ginia's 16



### economy. 17


### There were local government officials and 18


### citizens attending the conference. We heard from 19


### them both as speakers and as questioners in the 20



### sessions. They were learning about measures that 21


### they need to take right now to deal with the 22

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### urge nt threat of climate change. 1


### Just up the road from Williamsburg is 2


### Jamestown, Virginia, very historic place, a major 3


### tourist attraction. Scientists predict that 4


### Jamestown will be submerged by the end of this 5


### century because of sea level rise because of 6



### ca rbon, in large part because of carbon dioxide 7



### emissions. 8


### Some jobs will be lost in many industries 9


### because of sea level rise, drought, and more 10


### severe storms due to climate change. Many other 11


### jobs will be created as we work to adapt to 12


### climate change and to shift to a de

- carbonized 13



### energy economy. 14


### Of course, we need to work to help those 15


### whose jobs may be lost, as well as those whose 16


### property or businesses are at risk from 17


### destruction by sea level rise and other climate 18


### threats. But we should not let any one 19


### industry's concerns deter us from the urgent need 20



### to reduce carbon emissions now. 21


### The Supreme Court has said that the EPA 22

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### should regulate carbon dioxide emissions if they 1


### pose a threat to health and welfare. And they 2


### certainly do pose a grave threat. The coal and 3


### the electric power industries have had decades to 4


### prepare for this moment. The threat of global 5


### warming from carbon dioxide emissions has been 6


### known for some 40 years or more. 7


### So it's entirely reasonable, and in fact, 8


### necessary that any new coal

- fired power plants 9


### that might be built include carbon capture and 10


### sequestration to ensure that we meet our goal of 11


### preventing catastrophic climate change. 12


### I want to thank the EPA and commend you 13


### for proposing these reasonable limits on carbon 14



### dioxide emissions and thank you for your time. 15


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you very much. 16



### (Pause.) 17


### MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 18



### Pa tricia Bruckbauer and Eric Gople rud. 19


### MS. BRUCKBAUER: My name is Trisha 20



### Bruckbauer, and I am here on behalf of Creation 21



### Justice M inistries. We represent 37 Christian 22

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### denominations and their policies related to 1



### creation care. 2


### We are a diverse group , from mainline 3


### Protestants to Baptists, and orthodox traditions 4


### to evangelicals. One of the few things that we 5


### all agree on is the need to care for God's planet 6


### and to seek justice for those being harmed by 7



### environmental carelessness. 8


### I sat in this seat a few months ago to 9


### comment on carbon regulations for existing power 10


### plants. And today I'm here to offer our faith 11


### community's response to the rule on new power 12


### plants. 13


### We view climate change as the moral issue 14


### of our time and feel we have an obligation to 15


### reverse the implications of our careless actions. 16



### As Christians, we are called to be stewards of 17


### the land that was gifted to us and en sure that we 18


### leave this planet better for the next generation. 19


### While we have a responsibility to the 20


### planet and to honor and maintain the great gifts 21



### of clean water, air, and land, we are also called 22

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### to care for our neighbors. Climate change 1


### disproportion ately impacts vulnerable populations 2



### such as communities of color, low

- income 3



### communities, women, and children. We must ensure 4


### that we are doing all that we can to improve the 5


### health and quality of life of our neighbors that 6


### generally contribute the least to pollution and 7


### our changing climate, but suffer the most. 8


### You have stated that the implementation 9


### of this rule is not expected to impact 10


### electricity prices or reliability. We must 11


### ensure that this becomes a reality, and 12


### specifically that low

- income con sumers do not 13


### bear heavy burdens from this necessary rule. 14


### Our faith community fully supports the 15


### overall goal of this rule. However, we have 16


### concerns regarding the inclusion of carbon 17


### capture and storage technologies as an option for 18


### reducing carbon e mis sions for new power plants. 19


### We do not yet fully understand the 20


### impacts of CCS on the earth, the long

- term 21


### effectiveness of storing carbon dioxide 22

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### underground, or the impacts this may have on our 1



### communities. Instead, states and utilities 2



### around the countr y should be investing in proven 3


### renewable technologies. We urge you to 4



### reconsider the inclusion of CCS; however, in no 5


### way should this slow the timeline for 6


### implementation of this rule. 7



### Last week, in his State of the Union 8



### address, President Obama stated that, "When our 9


### children's children look us in the eye and ask if 10



### we did all we could to leave them a safer, more 11


### stable world, with new sources of energy, I want 12


### us to be able to say, 'Yes, we did.'" 13


### As a recent college graduate, I am part 14


### of that next ge neration, a child who inherited a 15


### changing climate. So while I am driven by my 16



### faith and called to care for the earth, I am also 17


### compelled to speak out , because this is my 18


### future. It is a sad and frightening reality when 19


### it has become normal to vilify th e EPA, but 20



### radical to ask for clean air and water. 21


### Jobs and profits are tangible benefits 22

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### that I can understand and value. Climate change 1


### and health impacts for future generations seem 2


### abstract. But I cannot believe that earning 3


### profits will mean anythin g if my brothers and 4


### sisters do not have a safe and healthy planet to 5



### live on. 6


### Christians believe that we are merely 7



### tenants on this earth, and therefore, we are 8



### connected to those that came before us and those 9



### that come after. This means that we are 10



### depe ndent on the decisions of the past, and the 11


### next generations will be dependent on the 12


### decisions that we are making right now. 13


### Whether you ascribe to a Christian world 14


### view or not, there is no denying that there's a 15


### moral imperative to care for the earth. I want 16


### to leave you with a quote from Lutheran 17


### Theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer was a 18


### German pastor that was instrumental in the Nazi 19


### resistance during World War II. So I think it's 20


### safe to assume that he can speak to morality. 21



### Bonhoeffer write s, "The ultimate test of 22

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### a moral society is the kind of world that it 1


### leaves to its children. Let's hope that we can 2


### continue to take steps forward to not only pass 3


### this test, but excel." Thank you. 4


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 5



### MR. GOPL E RUD: Those are prof ound words. 6


### Thank you. 7


### Good morning. I'm Eric Gop l e rud. And 8


### I'm speaking on behalf of the Unitarian 9


### Universalist Congregation of Fairfax, Virginia, 10



### and the Faith Alliance for Climate Solutions. We 11


### are a growing faith alliance organized for 12



### climate chan ge solutions as an urgent moral, 13


### spiritual responsibility to protect future 14


### generations. 15


### The United States leads the world in many 16


### areas, but it is lagging when it comes to climate 17


### change solutions. We in the U.S. have the 18



### resources and the know

- how to be a leader in 19


### climate change solutions. We can start with 20


### steps that will save taxpayers money, make us 21


### more efficient, and enhance our quality of life. 22

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### All of these steps will be good for the economy. 1


### In November, our congregation, UUCF, 2


### overwhelmingly a pproved a congregational 3


### resolution on climate change. The resolution, 4


### which I will leave with you, states in part, 5


### quote, "We affirm the value of life, the 6


### sacredness of each person, and all life on the 7


### planet. Global climate change is fundamentally a 8



### m oral, ethical, and social justice crisis. We 9


### have a responsibility to work with faith 10



### co mmunities everywhere to act to a vert and limit 11


### the potential catastrophe of climate change. 12


### "Although options exist for avoiding the 13


### worst consequences of climate chan ge and for 14


### limiting the effects of past and current 15


### greenhouse gas pollution, we are fast approaching 16


### tipping points. UUCF affirms that we ground our 17



### mission and our ministries in reverence for the 18



### earth. 19



### "We call for the U.S. Government to 20



### counter the fo rces that are causing climate 21


### change and to do so within the short time we have 22

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### left to avert the worst of the climate chaos, to 1


### dramatically reduce pollution from power plant 2


### energy sources, especially coal

- and gas

- fired 3


### power plants, shifti ng to emissio n
- free or very 4



### low

- emission alternatives. 5


### "We pledge help and call for our leaders 6


### to assist vulnerable and impoverished 7


### communities, including those who will be affected 8


### by changes in coal and gas extraction, who will 9


### bear the greatest burdens from global climate 10


### change. We commit to taking personal and 11


### congregational responsibility for reducing our 12


### own climate footprint," end quote. 13


### The UUCF Climate Change Resolution 14


### signifies that this issue is of highest 15


### importance and urgency for our members. Over th e 16


### past 20 years, the congregation has voted on only 17


### three other resolutions. Together, we can make 18


### real measurable positive impacts that help to 19


### reverse the course on global warming and climate 20



### changes. 21



### The Unitarian Universalist Association 22

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### 2006 Statemen t of Conscience states, quote, "We 1


### declare that we will not acquiesce to the ongoing 2


### degradation and destruction of life that human 3


### actions are leaving to our children and our 4


### grandchildren." 5



### The Unitarian Universalist Association 6


### has joined with other fai th

- based and secular 7



### investors with more than $900 billion in combined 8


### assets under management to strongly support the 9


### climate pollution standards on new power plants 10


### and to urge EPA to finalize the rule soon. 11


### In a September 20 letter to President 12



### Obama, t he UUA and the other investors stated, 13



### q uote, "We urge the President and EPA to proceed 14


### with a program to reduce carbon pollution from 15


### existing power plants as a critical next step in 16


### reducing the impacts of climate change and 17


### catalyzing the burgeoning cle an energy economy." 18


### In the absence of climate legislation, 19


### EPA carbon pollution standards for new and 20


### existing power plants represent the best 21


### opportunity to limit risks of climate change. We 22

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### applaud the administration for its commitment to 1



### these standard s and encourage the rapid 2


### finalization of strong new
- source standards. 3


### Climate change is one of the greatest 4


### moral, technical, and political issues in human 5


### history. The Faith Alliance for Climate 6



### Solutions and the Unitarian Universalist 7


### Congregation of F airfax commit to live and act 8


### with hope that solutions will be developed, 9


### starting here with EPA, to reduce carbon 10


### pollution from new and existing power plants. 11


### Thank you. 12


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you. 13



### (Pause.) 14


### MR. CULLIGAN: And our next two speakers 15



### are John Novak and Felice Stadler. 16


### MS. STADLER: Good morning. My name is 17



### Felice Stadler. I'm the Senior Director of 18


### National Wildlife Federation's Climate and Energy 19


### Program. And National Wildlife Federation is one 20


### of the nation's oldest and largest co nservation 21


### organizations. 22

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### I'm here today representing our 4 million 1


### members and supporters and the 150,000 wildlife 2



### advocates that are members of National Wildlife 3


### Federation that have already registered their 4


### formal support for your proposal to set first

5


### ever carbon limits on new power plants. 6


### The public is on your side. A new poll 7


### shows that 77 percent of voters support the 8


### administration's plan to set carbon limits on 9


### power plants, and 3 million people already have 10


### submitted formal comments to EPA, regi stering 11



### their s upport for your proposed rule. 12



### With the National Climate Data Center 13


### calling the 2000s the hottest decade on record, 14



### and 2013 the fourth

- hottest summer on record, 15


### it's clearly time for an all

- of

- the

- above 16


### approach to cutting climate

- disrupti ng carbon 17


### pollution. 18


### The coal industry likes to claim the 19


### administration is waging a war on coal. But 20


### let's be clear. It's the coal industry that has 21


### been waging a war on our wildlife, communities, 22

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### and clean air and water for decades. And now 1


### they're lo sing ground because the American public 2


### is standing up for clim ate solutions and clean 3



### energy. 4


### It's only fair that if a company wants to 5


### build a new coal plant today, they should be 6


### required to install proven technology that will 7


### capture its carbon emissio ns, just like it should 8


### be required to cut its mercury and smog pollution 9



### -- no exceptions. 10


### Polls show many Americans think these 11


### controls are already in place. So your efforts 12


### are long overdue. 13


### We know that there is controversy around 14


### carbon capture and storage from all sides. So 15


### I'd like to articulate ours, which is informed by 16


### a resolution adopted by our affiliate 17


### organizati ons at our 2009 annual meeting. 18



### Our resolution states that before the 19


### construction of any new coal

- fired power plant, 20



### an assessmen t should be done and a determination 21


### made that alternatives, including energy 22

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### efficiency and renewable energy generation, are 1


### not viable to meet anticipated new demand, and 2


### that if a new coal plant is constructed, it be 3


### required to capture and permanently store its 4


### carbon emissions to the greatest degree feasible 5



### and achieve near

- zero carbon emissions within 10 6


### years of startup. 7


### We recognize that the EPA does not have 8


### the authority to incorporate all these elements 9



### in its new

- source performance standard. B ut we 10


### applaud the Agency for taking the critical first 11


### step by setting a carbon emission limit that will 12


### further drive investments away from new coal 13


### plants toward cleaner cost

- effective 14



### alternatives. 15


### Where we hope the Agency will make 16


### adjustments is in ho w the proposed rule targets 17


### natural gas burning power plants. The Clean Air 18


### Act is intended to be technology forcing. So 19


### setting a carbon standard for new gas plants that 20


### don't prompt new plants to use better, clean er 21


### technology misses the mark. 22

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### We urge the Agency to revisit this before 1


### finalizing the rule and consider a more stringent 2


### carbon limit for new gas plants so that the 3


### standard is driving clean technology to achieve 4


### reductions for the entire utility sector. 5


### Lastly, as the Agency works to finaliz e 6


### its rule and prepares to draft its carbon rule 7


### targeting existing power plants, we call on the 8


### EPA to move quickly in addressing methane 9


### pollution from gas production. It's an 10


### uncontrolled and potentially very sizable source 11



### that can be reined in cost

- e ffectively. 12


### In closing, the administration's plan to 13


### cut carbon pollution from the nation's power 14


### sector is the clean energy vision that we need to 15


### get behind. Getting off of carbon

- intensive 16



### fuels is critical if we are to avert catastrophic 17


### climate chang e. And your proposed carbon rule is 18


### a down payment on that vision. 19


### Thank you for your leadership on this 20


### important issue. 21


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 22

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### MR. NOVAK: Kevin, I hope you didn't have 1


### the same flight delays I did last night getting 2



### back. 3


### But, good m orning. I'm going to read a 4


### statement. My name is John Novak. On behalf of 5


### the National Rural Electric Cooperative 6


### Association, NRECA, I appreciate the opportunity 7


### to speak here today. 8


### We have some concerns with the potential 9


### application of the pr oposed standard for new 10



### natural

- gas
- fired combustion turbines to new gas 11


### peaking and intermediate units, and we will 12



### address those concerns in our written comments. 13


### My comments today will focus on the 14


### proposed standard of performance for coal

- fired 15



### units. 16



### NRECA is a national service organization 17



### for more than 900 not

- for

- profit rural electric 18


### utilities that provide affordable, reliable 19


### electric service to approximately 42 million 20



### consumers in 47 states. 21


### Why is the EPA proposal setting CO2 22

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### emissions limit for new fossil units important to 1


### cooperatives? As demonstrated by cold snaps just 2


### this winter, natural gas prices are volatile and 3


### spike even during shorter

- term weather events. 4



### This has an immediate adverse effect on co nsumer 5



### electric bills. 6



### Coal and its stabl e price is a long

- term 7


### proven hedge against natural gas volatility, and 8


### it's critical if we are going to continue to 9


### provide affordable electricity to our members. 10


### What is the impact of EPA's proposed 11



### standard to limit CO2 emissions from new coal 12



### units? E PA's proposal would require new units to 13


### install CO2 capture technology that is constantly 14


### and not commercially viable, effectively removing 15


### coal from use as a hedge against natural gas 16


### price swings. 17


### There are areas of the country that will 18


### require additio nal electric capacity in the 19



### future, but do not have sufficient access to 20


### natural gas, do not have suitable sites for CO2 21


### storage or for enhanced oil recovery, and cannot 22

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### be supplied wholesale power reliably through the 1


### existing transmission grid. How wil l EPA 2



### reconcile elimination of new coal

- fired capacity 3



### in these situations? 4



### What are the factors that should be 5


### considered when setting a standard? The Clean 6


### Air Act precedent is that the best system of 7


### emission reduction is based on data from existing 8


### pl ants in the U.S. and worldwide, as appropriate. 9


### In view of existing performance and what can be 10


### reasonably anticipated, we think the best system 11


### is defined by improvements in thermal efficiency, 12


### an option that EPA has considered and rejected in 13


### this propo sal. 14


### Should the EPA approach of CO2 capture, 15


### including partial capture, be considered the best 16


### system of emission reduction? No. CO2 capture 17


### technology has not been deployed at commercial 18


### scale at any power plant anywhere in the world. 19



### Costs should be c onsidered, and the additional 20


### costs associated with CO2 capture are very large, 21


### unacceptable, and would roughly double the cost 22

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### versus a conventional coal plant without CO2 1



### capture. 2


### Is Southern Company's Kemper County plant 3



### the best system of emission redu ction? No. 4


### Kemper is still under construction, which means 5


### it is not yet adequately demonstrated. Kemper is 6



### a first

- of

- a
- kind gasification technology and 7



### will also use other first

- of

- a
- kind technologies 8


### unique to the gasifier. 9



### First

- of

- a
- kind plants do not always 10



### work. For example, the Sierra Pacific Pin o n Pine 11



### I ntegrated G asification C ombined

- C ycle plant was 12


### built with DOE funds, but the gasifier failed to 13


### function properly and the project was finally 14


### mothballed. It failed because a large number of 15



### th e process blocks were first

- of

- a
- kind. Will 16


### Kemper have similar issues? 17


### Kemper is only commercially viable 18


### because of a suite of public subsidies and 19


### financial incentives, including revenues from the 20


### sales of carbon dioxide at the plant for enhanced 21



### oil r ecovery. The public subsidies are not 22

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### available for new projects, and financial 1


### incentives unique to Kemper will not apply to 2


### other projects in other locations. 3


### Will a standard that requires coal plants 4


### to capture CO2 encourage CO2 capture, research, 5



### deve lopment, and demonstration and will lead to 6


### reductions in the cost of CO2 capture? No. We 7


### think this proposal will be a setback for CO2 8


### capture, research, development, and 9



### demonstration. 10


### In conclusion, CO2 capture is not 11


### commercially viable. With this p roposal, the 12


### administration is clearly abandoning its all

- of

13



### the

- above energy strategy and embracing an all

14



### but

- one approach that effectively prevents 15



### construction of new coal

- based generation. 16



### We've seen this all

- but

- one game before 17


### in our country's recen t history. Concern ed about 18


### natural gas supplies, Congress passed the ill

19



### conceived Power P lant and Industrial Fuel Use Act 20


### of 1978, which prohibited burning natural gas to 21


### generate electricity. To meet growing demand for 22

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### base

- load power, utilities effect ively were 1


### forced to choose either coal or nuclear plants. 2


### The cost of constructing nuclear plants 3


### in the late 1970s was skyrock et ing. A nd the 4


### Three Mile Island plant ac cident

-- after that , 5


### construction of nuclear plants came to a 6


### standstill, leaving coa l as the only base

- load 7



### resource. 8



### For co

- ops, the timing was especially 9


### challenging. The measure was implemented just as 10



### co
- ops were in the middle of a major power plant 11


### building cycle, while Congress was prohibiting 12


### one choice of resource to meet growing demand for 13


### electricity. As a result, co

- ops invested 14


### heavily in coal

- based generating plants in the 15


### late '70s and early '80s. 16


### It took nine years, but Congress finally 17


### repealed its mistake in 1987. There is no reason 18


### to repeat the mistakes of the past, b ut that 19


### appears exactly what we are about to do. 20


### Thank you very much. 21


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you. 22

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### (Pause.) 1


### MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 2


### Ivy Main and Jim Tozzi. 3



### MS. MAIN: Thank you. I'm Ivy Main. I ' m 4


### a resident of Virginia. I raised tw o daughters 5


### in the Washington area. Both of them had asthma 6


### in spite of the fact that there's never been a 7


### history of asthma in either of our families. And 8



### the cost of that to us was thousands of dollars 9


### out of pocket, lost school time, visits to the 10



### doc tors. And we have great insurance plans. 11


### What I take away from that is that the 12


### cost of pollution is far greater than what is 13


### priced into electricity. And it is very easy to 14


### assess what we pay in an electric bill and what 15



### the cost will be to an electrici ty consumer from 16


### new regulations. It is much harder to assess 17



### what the benefits will be and where the cost 18


### savings will come elsewhere. 19


### But they're enormous. We could have paid 20


### five times our electric bill and saved money if 21


### we weren't paying for the cos t of asthma. And I 22

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### would have had healthier, happier children. 1


### And the same thing is true of carbon. We 2


### know you can judge, basically, what it's going to 3


### cost to comply with carbon regulations in terms 4


### of the cost to the consumer in electricity 5


### prices. But the cost of avoiding climate change 6



### -- I'm not saying it very well. The costs 7


### involved with climate change are catastrophically 8


### higher. 9


### So, it's not really fair to say that 10


### carbon regulations are going to drive up costs to 11



### consumers. Because , in fact , the costs that they 12


### will be saving consumers is far more. And the 13


### fact that we have a lot more trouble calculating 14


### it because there are so many unknowns in what 15


### we're facing going down the road in terms of 16


### disease and displaced persons and storm surges

-- 17


### those are unpredictable, but they are very real. 18


### And we will be having to pay those costs if we 19



### don't deal with it. 20


### So I really applaud the EPA for taking 21



### action on carbon. It's

-- well, people say 22

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### you're putting coal out of business. Nobody's 1



### build ing a new coal plant now anyway because 2


### natural gas is so cheap. The concern I have and 3


### a lot of people have is that there's a real rush 4


### to natural gas, and that's not going to get us 5



### out of the carbon bind that we're in. 6


### If everybody builds new gas plant s, we're 7


### still heading down the road to climate change. 8


### So if anything, I think the carbon limits on the 9


### gas plants are more lax than they could be. I 10


### think the newer technology on natural gas 11



### combined

- cycle plants is such that they could be 12


### meeting a ti ghter restriction. 13


### And so I would, if anything, encourage 14


### the EPA to tighten up those regulations because 15


### we're looking at extremely high costs to 16


### consumers from climate change. And a little bit 17


### of pain in the electric bills is far more offset 18


### by the sav ings that we will face across the board 19


### in the rest of our lives. Thank you. 20


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 21


### MR. TOZZI: Members of the panel, members 22

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### of the public, I'm Jim Tozzi, and I'm with the 1


### Center for Regulatory Effectiveness. 2



### The issue we have before u s today is 3



### somewhat broader than new

- source performance 4


### standards. It has to do in part with the 5


### administrative powers of the President. I have a 6


### little background in that, since I spent a good 7


### part of my career working for f ive p residents, 8


### expanding tho se authorities that you most 9


### certainly are using today. 10


### When I did so, I thought it very useful 11


### to look at my actions in two categories: One 12


### category was something I was asked to do whether 13


### it was discretionary, discretionary meaning 14



### whether I could do it , yes or no. 15


### Nondiscretionary meaning where I really had no 16


### option other than pursue some action. 17



### Now, on the action before us, it appears 18



### that EPA has decided that to conduct a Data 19


### Quality Act

- structured peer review of the 20



### a vailability of CCS is a discr etionary action, 21



### because if

-- the law , in our view , is very clear 22

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### and EPA has failed to do that. 1


### Now, I guess you can look at it a lot of 2


### ways for an answer to that. But it is all 3


### summarized, I think, in a tune by a well

- known 4



### country

- Western singer of y ears ago. His name 5


### was Waylon Jennings. And the song was "Wrong." 6


### It is actually incorrect to assume that you have 7


### the option not to do a structured Data Quality 8


### Act review, peer review, of the availability of 9



### CCS. 10


### And I say this because there's a numbe r 11


### of people we heard today

-- I was here from the 12


### inception of this hearing

-- that are pro

13


### greenhouse gas control that raised questions 14


### about that. I think it is incumbent upon ya'll 15



### to do a review under that because it was 16


### sanctioned by OMB and by the N AS as a really 17



### balanced

- type peer review. 18


### Now, why do I say that? Because there's 19



### a decision in the courts, the D.C. Circuit Court 20


### of Appeals, prime time, that says the guidelines 21


### issued by OMB are binding. It also says included 22

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### in those guidelines are t he peer review 1


### guidelines that were issued by OMB, are binding 2



### upon you. 3


### So the question is, Was there a peer 4


### review done by the SAB? Yes. Was the peer 5


### review done by the SAB compliant with the Data 6


### Quality Act? No. There is your vulnerability. 7



### And wha t the public missed by having the 8


### type of SAB review you had was several

- fold. 9


### Because if it were a structured OMB Data Quality 10


### Act review, the public would have had very 11


### substantial participation in that peer review. 12


### It would have included, you would ha ve issued a 13


### plan to study for public comment, who was going 14


### to participate, how the panels were chosen, and 15


### an interaction by the public. 16



### You would have also been mandated to 17


### allow the public to react to the peer review 18


### report. So, that hasn't gone. 19



### Now, it is surprising to me that EPA has 20


### not done that Data Quality Act peer review. And 21


### let me give you three reasons: First of all, 22

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### there is no agency in the government that has 1


### done better work on peer review than EPA. Here 2



### is a 190

- page document written by EPA that 3



### describes in detail what " peer review " means. 4


### There's no agency in the government that has done 5


### a better job of that. 6


### Second, the EPA Inspector General has 7


### raised the identical questions that I have. He's 8



### written a 99

- page report on the endan germent 9


### finding where the Inspector General, this Agency 10


### said, for all the reasons I did, you should have 11


### done a Data Quality Act structured report. Not 12


### my words, the Inspector General's report. 13


### And third, I'm not here pushing Data 14


### Quality Act compliance on every little issue. 15


### This is the first time I've done this in 14 years 16



### of

-- trust me. I was involved, and I know the 17


### Data Quality Act. I think this is an issue of 18


### national importance, a structured review where 19


### the public can participate and know the process 20


### is good for all parties and this. 21


### And so my third point is

-- can you yield 22

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### me one minute of time, sir? Is that

-- I'm going 1


### to say this, is that even environmental groups 2



### raise this concern. The Sierra Club

-- not 3


### Sierra Club. The Greenpeace sa ys, "CCS is a 4



### hi ghly speculative, risky, and unlikely 5


### technologically feasible in the next 20 years." 6


### So there's views all over this. A good 7


### analysis like that will put it on the record. 8


### And we wrote to you a very long letter, and we 9


### await your response. And you give us a response, 10


### it's either yes or no , you're going to do it. 11



### And we would be available, the staff, the 12


### lawyers, the regulatory analysts, if you have any 13


### data information you want to respond to that 14


### letter. We'd appreciate it. Meantime, we ask 15


### that you keep the public comment period open 16


### until you respond. 17


### Sorry for my minute over. Thank you. 18


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you very much. 19



### (Pause.) 20


### MR. CULLIGAN: And our next two speakers 21



### are Peter Adriance and Jo n Gallinger. 22

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### MR. ADRIANCE: Good morni ng. I'm Peter 1


### Adriance, representing the Baha ' is of the United 2


### States. I'm pleased to be among several faith 3


### representatives here speaking in support of EPA's 4



### pro posed carbon pollution standards for new power 5


### plants. I appreciate EPA's efforts to clean up 6


### our environment through these standards, which 7


### will reduce dangerous emissions. They'll protect 8


### the health and wellbeing of all citizens in the 9


### web of life upon which we all depend. 10


### Currently, power plants are responsible 11


### for 40 percent of U.S. nationa l carbon emissions. 12


### And the impacts of these emissions are 13


### increasingly being felt in communities here at 14



### home and around th e globe, as we've heard today. 15


### From extreme weather events to droughts, 16


### floods, wildfires, the spread of vector

- borne 17



### diseases, inc reased levels of asthma, and more, 18


### there is growing evidence that carbon emissions 19


### are causing chaos and loss of life and property, 20



### often in communities ill

- prepared to deal with 21


### the impacts. 22

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### Knowing the importance of reducing carbon 1


### emissions, then, why w ould we allow new power 2


### plants to be built without any restrictions on 3


### the carbon they emit? These standards can help 4


### to discourage investment in infrastructure that 5


### will lock us into dangerous levels of emissions 6



### for decades to come. The new standards w ill 7


### serve as an incentive to develop clean energy 8


### sources, including renewables. 9


### More than purely an environmental issue, 10


### the setting of carbon standards is an issue of 11


### fairness, equity, and justice, as many speaking 12


### here today have testified. President O bama has 13


### stressed the same point himself. In his words, 14


### "We have a moral obligation to future generations 15


### to leave them a planet that's not polluted and 16


### damaged." 17


### Now, we in the faith community would, of 18


### course, agree with that. But it's not only 19



### future generations that will bear the impacts of 20


### climate change. They're being felt now most 21


### intensely by those populations around the world 22

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### who are least able to cope with them. We must 1


### act with great conviction and haste to move 2



### toward solutions. 3



### The central principle of the Baha ' i faith 4



### is the oneness of mankind. This principle has 5


### deep implications for policy in many arenas. It 6


### should guide us to seek solutions that are 7


### equitable and just, treating all people as 8


### members of one human family. EPA's proposed 9


### carbon standards for new power plants represent 10


### one way that this principle can be put into 11



### action. 12



### I was fortunate last week to attend the 13



### 14th National Conference and Global Forum on 14


### Science, Policy, and the Environment. The focus 15


### there was on building climate solutions. The 16


### good news is that solutions are within our reach. 17


### And many are being implemented. 18


### Several presenters acknowledged the 19



### social costs and ethical dimensions of the 20



### c limate challenge. Renow ned climate scientist 21


### Dr. Richard Alley was emphatic about this. He 22

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### referred to the golden rule issue. We must do 1



### unto others as we would have them do unto us. 2


### But right now, our emissions and their impact on 3


### others is taking us in the wrong direction. 4


### He said if we take the right steps in 5



### limiti ng our emissions, we'll bring about a 6


### stronger economy, more jobs, enhanced national 7


### security, and a cleaner environment. We'll also 8


### be more consistent with the golden rule. 9



### If we continue with business as usual, 10


### the opposite will result. EPA's proposed carbon 11


### standards for new power plants are an important 12



### addition to the mix of solutions that we so 13


### desperately need. 14


### People of faith across the country are 15


### putting their heads and hearts together to 16



### address the climate issue. Later this month, 17


### people of a ll faiths, including the Baha ' is, will 18


### take part in the National Preach

- In on Climate 19


### Change, organized by Interfaith Power and Light. 20


### In churches, mosques, synagogues, Baha ' i 21


### centers around the country, they will be 22

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### discussing climate change from a faith 1


### perspective and taking action to reduce their own 2


### emissions and sending messages to members of 3


### Congress, asking them to do their part in moving 4



### toward a low

- carbon energy future. 5


### In order to make real progress, we need 6


### national policies to address these da ngerous 7


### emissions. And adopting EPA's proposed carbon 8


### standards for new power plants is an important 9



### move in that direction. 10


### So my hope is that our generation will be 11



### able to leave the world directed towards a better 12



### future than the one towards which we a re headed 13


### currently, a world in which all people will be 14


### able to lead safe, productive, and healthy lives. 15


### Thanks, EPA, for your efforts. 16


### MR. GALLINGER: Good morning. I'm Jon 17


### Gallinger. It's J

- o
- n, without the H. 18


### Gallinger, G

- a
- l

- l

- i

- n
- g
- e
- r. I'm Dire ctor of 19



### Government Affairs for Mitsubishi Hitachi Power 20


### Systems America , was formerly known as Mitsubishi 21


### Power Systems. Just a few days ago, on February 22

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### 1st, Mitsubishi heavy industries and Hitachi 1


### merged their thermal power generation businesses. 2



### So, h ence the new name. 3


### The proposed rule will apply to the 4


### technologies which Mitsubishi Hitachi Power 5



### Systems, or Mitsubishi Hitachi , both manufactures 6



### and sells within the U.S. Mitsubishi Hitachi is 7


### providing the world's most efficient combined

8


### cycle system s. These M501J technologies offer 9


### unsurpassed efficiency of nearly 62 percent at 10


### full load, and over 55 percent at minimum 11



### combined

- cycle load, and also provide operational 12


### flexibility for an increasingly complex grid. 13


### Today's natural gas combined

- cycle 14



### s ystems offer tremendous benefits, as their 15


### efficiency helps maintain affordable electricity 16


### rates, their flexibility enhances grid stability, 17


### and their fuel source burns cleaner and greatly 18


### reduces environmental impacts compared to other 19



### fossil fuel techno logies and conventional 20


### combustion turbine technologies. 21


### To meet the demands of an increasingly 22

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### complex grid for renewable generation backing, 1



### the M 501GAC

- FAST provides remarkable flexibility 2


### with the ability to start up and deliver more 3


### than 250 megawatts of reliable power within only 4



### 10 minutes and still maintain efficiencies of 59 5



### percent. 6



### In the U.S., Mitsubishi Hitachi has the 7


### largest installed fleet of advanced efficiency, 8


### this is G series or larger, combined cycles, 9


### compared to any other gas turbine manufacturer, 10


### almost two times all the other suppliers 11



### combined. 12



### With 45 units installed or sold in North 13



### America alone, Mitsubishi Hitachi has extensive 14


### experience with the latest advanced, highly 15



### efficient combined

- cycle systems. Of note, we 16


### recently so ld our first J class unit in the 17


### United States, which, when operational in 2017, 18


### is expected to be the most efficient fossil

- fuel 19


### plant in the U.S. 20


### Mitsubishi Hitachi recognized long ago 21


### the need to develop highly efficient and flexible 22

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### turbine technologie s, and we realized the 1


### benefits that these types of products offer to 2



### both the markets and to the environment. As a 3


### result, our technologies, including our time

4



### tested G series fleet and advanced state

- of

- the

5


### art J series technologies, are capable of meet ing 6


### this regulation as proposed, with limited 7



### changes. 8


### We plan to submit written comments on 9


### which we provide additional detail beyond what I 10


### highlight today. Our comments focus only on the 11


### limits proposed for combustion turbines within a 12



### new section of t he Q uad K re quirements or as a 13


### new subpart Q uad T requirement. We do not 14


### comment on the proposed limits for coal

- fired 15



### units. 16



### Moreover, we focus on the limits 17



### established for combustion turbines which burn 18


### greater than 850 million BTU's per hour heat 19


### inpu t. 20


### In summary, our position concerning this 21



### rule and recommendations to the EPA are as 22

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### follows: Number one, both mature and recently 1



### commercialized Mitsubishi Hitachi combustion 2


### turbine technologies are capable of meeting the 3


### 1,000 pounds CO2 per megawatt hour standard for 4


### combustion turbines firing greater than 850 5


### million BTU's per hour heat input. 6


### Even under a wide range of operating and 7


### degradation assumptions, Mitsubishi Hitachi's 8


### turbine technologies are able to meet the 9


### proposed limit. 10



### Two, we recom mended eliminating the 11


### compliance requirement for the periods of time 12


### when a unit is combusting secondary fuels, such a 13


### fuel oil, but still consume greater than 90 14


### percent natural gas on a three

- year rolling 15



### average. Since secondary fuel operation is 16



### inher ently inefficient, this compliance 17


### requirement would create t he possibility for an 18



### otherwise extremely efficient combustion turbine 19


### to exceed the emissions limit during reliability

20



### critical events. 21


### And finally, we support the exemption for 22

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### units which sell less than one

- third of their 1


### potential electric output to the grid. We view 2


### this exemption as favorable, as it reduces the 3


### risks associated for a natural gas combined cycle 4


### designed for base

- load or intermediate

- load 5


### operations, but future grid condition s require 6


### dispatch in low

- peaking mode. 7


### So, in closing, we hope our comments and 8



### recommendations are informative and useful as the 9


### Agency seeks to promulgate standards of 10


### performance for greenhouse gas emissions from new 11


### stationary sources

. 12



### We look forward to working with the EPA 13



### and stakeholders to demonstrate our combustion 14



### combined

- cycle technology's ability to provide 15


### efficient, flexible, and environmentally friendly 16


### power resources which enhance grid stability and 17


### promote more affordable electricity ra tes, while 18


### having minimal impacts on the environment. 19


### Thank you again for the opportunity to be 20


### here today. 21


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 22

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### (Pause.) 1



### MR. CULLIGAN: So, our next tw o speakers 2


### are Kendyl Crawford and Brierre Louis. 3


### So, are you Kendyl? 4



### MS. CRAWFORD: Yes. 5



### MR. CULLIGAN: Do we have Brierre Louis? 6


### Sorry for the mispronunciation. 7


### MS. CRAWFORD: Hello. My name is Kendyl 8


### Crawford, and I'm a resident of Hampton, 9


### Virginia, which is a part of the Hampton Roads 10


### region. I just want to start off by saying th at 11


### my back yard is in a flood zone. My family owns 12


### several properties in the area, and after being 13


### in business for around 45 years, we are noticing 14


### increased threat from recurrent flooding. 15


### Not many people know this, but Hampton 16



### Roads is the second

- most p opulated lowest

- lying 17



### area vulnerable to sea level rise in the United 18


### States, right after New Orleans. As the water is 19


### predicted to rise, our land is sinking as well. 20


### A report from the Virginia Institute of 21


### Marine Science predicts that by 2100, we could 22

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### e xperience a sea level rise of 5.4 feet. So I 1


### must impress upon you not just the economic, but 2



### also the cultural, social, ethical, and 3


### historical importance of acting immediately and 4


### acting vigorously to adapt to and mitigate the 5


### impacts of climate change. 6


### From a young woman who may very soon be 7


### swimming for her life, please enact strict carbon 8


### pollution standards for both new and existing 9


### power plants. Thank you. 10


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 11


### MS. BRIERRE: My name is Louise Brierre. 12



### It's a nice French name, comes from my family in 13


### New Orleans. I was impressed with the importance 14



### of clean air and clean water when I visited the 15


### area from Baton Rouge down to New Orleans, the 16


### sort of Cancer Alley. That impressed me because 17



### I was also

-- I was born and raised in 18


### Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 19


### I was lucky enough to be born shortly 20


### after they had such a success in cleaning up 21


### Pittsburgh, the Renaissance. They pretty much 22

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### eliminated the vast smog that was there. So I 1


### have sort of a lifelong orientation towards 2


### liking c lean air, breathable air, as well as 3



### clean and safe water. 4


### You all have an huge job in front of you, 5


### but I want to impress upon you from an historic 6


### standpoint that it's far better to do a good job 7


### at the very beginning of regulating rather than 8


### trying to clean up afterwards. So I'm speaking 9


### here on behalf of myself and future generations 10


### supporting EPA's efforts to control and sort of 11


### prevent an awful lot of pollution. 12


### Looking forward to the seventh generation 13


### coming after us. Thank you. 14



### MR. CULLIGAN: T hank both of you. 15


### We're just going to take a quick five

16



### minute break. But we'll be back and start with 17


### our next two speakers at that point. 18


### (Whereupon, at 11:06 a.m., a brief recess 19



### was taken, to reconvene at 11:14 a.m.) 20


### MR. CULLIGAN: All right. We're g oing to 21


### restart again. And I hope that our next two 22

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### speakers are here. We have Mandy Warner and 1


### Earle Mitchell. So, are either Mandy Warner or 2


### Earle Mitchell here? Earle is here. Okay. 3



### Great. 4


### MS. WARNER: Good morning. My name is 5



### M andy Warner, and I 'm with Environmental Defense 6


### Fund, a nonpartisan environmental organization 7



### with more than 750,000 members nationwide. Thank 8


### you for the opportunity to testify today. 9


### The proposed carbon pollution standards 10


### for new power plants are an important step 11



### towa rds addressing the massive quantities of 12



### climate

- destabilizing pollution emitted from U.S. 13


### power plants, one of the largest sources of 14


### greenhouse gases in the world. The standards 15


### will finally require new coal

- fired plants to 16


### begin addressing their danger ous carbon 17


### pollution. 18


### Currently, there are no national limits 19


### at all on the carbon pollution discharged from 20


### power plants. Fortunately, America has a vast 21


### array of solutions to power our businesses and 22

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### homes with lower

- emitting sources of energy, 1



### includin g renewables, micro

- grid technologies, 2


### and energy efficiency. 3


### The proposed carbon pollution technology 4


### for new coal plants is being deployed around the 5


### world, and here in North America at plants in 6


### Canada, Mississippi, California, and at two 7


### plants in Texa s. These vital clean air standards 8


### will provide long overdue and urgently needed 9


### protections for our health and climate while 10


### strengthening our made

- in

- America clean energy 11



### economy. 12


### Climate change presents a clear and 13


### present danger to the U.S. and to the world. The 14


### World Meteorological Organization confirms that 15


### 2013 tied for the sixth warmest year on record. 16


### Last year also marked the 37th consecutive year 17


### with the global temperature about the twentieth 18


### century average, and there were seven climate 19



### disa sters, each costing more than $1 billion, 20


### including several outbreaks of tornadoes in the 21


### Southwest, Midwest and Plains; devastating floods 22

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### in Colorado; and extreme drought in Western 1



### states. Billion

- dollar weather and climate 2



### events alone in the U.S. in 2012 cost more than 3



### $115 billion. 4


### The U.S. Global Change Research Program 5


### has determined that if carbon pollution is not 6


### reduced, it is likely that American communities 7


### will experience increasingly severe climate 8


### impacts, including rising levels of dangero us 9


### smog in some of our cities, which will lead to an 10


### increased risk of respiratory infections, more 11


### asthma attacks, and more premature deaths; 12



### increased risk of illness and death due to 13



### extreme heat; more intense hurricanes and storm 14


### surges; and much more. 15


### U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel 16


### said in November, quote, "Climate change has not 17


### directly caused conflict, but it can add to the 18


### challenges of global instability, hunger, 19


### poverty, and conflict, food and water shortages, 20


### pandemic disease, disputes ov er refugees and 21



### resources, more severe natural disasters

-- all 22

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### place additional burdens on economies, societies, 1


### and institutions around the world," end quote. 2



### Dozens of states across the nation have 3


### policies in place to harness the economic and 4



### environme ntal benefits of cleaner energy through 5


### renewable energy standards, energy efficiency 6


### standards, even carbon pollution standards, and 7


### more. A number of states have already adopted 8


### limits on the carbon pollution that can be 9


### discharged from new fossil

- fuel power plants and 10


### provide a strong foundation for federal 11


### protection. 12


### State pollution and clean energy 13


### standards are aligned with market forces, such as 14



### lower

- cost natural gas and increased cost 15


### competitiveness of renewables that are already 16


### driving power c ompanies to develop cleaner 17


### technologies. 18


### In 2012, wind power topped all other 19


### sources of added generation capacity, accounting 20


### for 43 percent of all new electric generation 21



### additions and $25 billion in U.S. investment. In 22

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### 2012, also, rooftop solar panels cost 1


### approximately 1 percent of what they did 35 years 2



### ago. 3


### These standards will provide power 4


### companies with regulatory certainty to make 5


### prudent long

- term investments in cleaner home

6


### grown energy that puts Americans to work. We 7



### have heard all familiar claims that some carbon 8


### pollution control technologies are not ready yet. 9


### Similar claims were made and subsequently 10


### disproved about scrubbers and mercury controls. 11


### EPA's finding that carbon pollution 12


### controls like CCS are adequately demonstrated for 13



### new c oal

- fired power plants is based on an 14


### extensive body of technical information. 15


### It is also entirely consistent with what 16


### the head of the nation's largest coal

- based power 17


### company said just a few years ago. The American 18



### Electric Power's former CEO and Presi dent Mike 19


### Morris had this to say about the company's 20


### Mountaineer CCS project in 2011: "We're 21


### encouraged by what we saw. We're clearly 22

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### impressed with what we learn and we feel that we 1


### have demonstrated to a certainty that CCS is in 2


### fact viable technology for the U.S., and quite 3


### honestly, for the rest of the world going 4



### forward." 5


### The technology EPA is relying on in 6


### setting these standards is available today, and 7


### the time has come when we can no longer afford to 8


### build new, uncontrolled coal plants that relea se 9


### vast volumes of carbon pollution for 50 years or 10


### more, recklessly imperiling our health, our 11


### environment, and our prosperity. 12


### EPA's proposed limits are essential to 13


### address climate change, to drive innovation and 14


### clean energy solutions, to ensure a stea dy flow 15



### of cost

- effective and cleaner electricity to 16


### power our economy, and to protect the health and 17


### wellbeing of Americans, including the 4 million 18


### Americans who have waited to support these 19



### historic standards. 20


### EDF will also be submitting further 21



### technic al comments on the proposed rule. Thank 22

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### you again for the opportunity to testify. 1


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 2


### MR. MITCHELL: Good morning. My name is 3


### Earle Mitchell, and I live in Springfield, 4


### Virginia. Today you will hear comments from the 5



### coal and natur al gas producers, as well as from 6


### power plant operators such as Dominion Resources. 7


### Dominion happens to be the largest 8


### polluter of the air in Virginia. These 9


### companies, like the folk tale Chicken Little, 10


### will claim that the sky is falling and the 11


### proposed standards will kill off any new fossil 12


### fuel power plants in the U.S.A. They will claim 13


### that the loss of potential jobs will set the 14



### nation back on its heels. 15


### The coal industry provided 750,000 jobs 16


### in this country at its peak. It now provides 17



### 100,000. The solar industry provided 119,000 18


### direct jobs in 2012 and is growing at an 19



### accelerated rate of six times faster than the 20


### overall job market. Those last two statistics 21


### are from the U.S. Department of Energy. 22

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### Mining in the U.S.A. is seven times more 1



### deadl y to its workforce than the average industry 2


### in the country. Two factors that are not 3


### addressed in the proposed standards are the means 4


### by which the fuel is obtained and the residual 5


### disposal after it is burned. 6


### Much of the coal in the East is procured 7


### by mountaintop removal. This process strips the 8



### overburden from the coal seams and shoves toxic 9



### chemicals, such as lead, selenium, arsenic, et 10


### cetera, into the streambeds below. Twenty

- two 11


### percent of the streams in West Virginia are now 12


### heavily polluted. 13



### H ere's a statistic I never believed: 14


### Five hundred mountains in Virginia, West 15


### Virginia, and Kentucky have been subjected to 16


### this process. It's been going on for years, but 17


### you don't hear too much about it. 18


### A coal ash pond breach at the TVA 19



### resulted in 1 b illion gallons of toxic waste 20


### leaking into two rivers. The cleanup continues 21


### at the cost of millions of taxpayer dollars. 22

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### Last month, the spill of a toxic chemical using 1


### the coal cleaning process contaminated the water 2


### supply for 300,000 West Virginians for more than 3



### a week. 4



### This week

-- this week, mind you

-- Duke 5


### Energy experienced a coal ash spill that resulted 6



### in 50,000 tons

-- let me repeat, 50,000 tons of 7



### toxic ash into the Dan River. That river flows 8


### into Lake Gaston, which supplies water to the 9



### c ities of Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and 10


### Chesapeake. 11


### Natural gas has its own problems. The 12


### forcing of chemicals into the ground to penetrate 13



### the shale has resulted in the contamination of 14


### potable water. Earthquakes have occurred in 15



### northern Ohio after frack ing. This area has no 16


### history of ever having had an earthquake before. 17


### The fracking process also results in having a 18


### large quantity of methane gas leaking into the 19


### atmosphere. Some European countries have an 20


### outright ban on fracking. 21


### The industry does n ot like to disclose 22

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### the problems with pipelines. San Bruno, 1


### California, had a natural gas pipeline explode, 2


### which killed eight people and destroyed a 3


### neighborhood in 2010. Natural gas transmission 4


### systems in the U.S. cause an average of 17 5



### fatalities and $133 million in damages every 6



### year. 7



### The total fatalities for solar and wind 8



### power are zero per year. 9



### I ask that when the standard is 10



### evaluated, all concerned look at the total 11


### picture. What are the negative aspects of 12


### burning fossil fuels for energy? An d what are 13


### the alternatives? To quote a famous politician, 14


### it's like putting lipstick on a pig. Fossil 15


### fuels are dirty and harmful to the environment. 16


### The standard must be as strict as possible to 17


### protect the health of the American people. 18


### You merely ha ve to read the latest report 19


### from the IPCC to realize that we must change our 20



### ways. 21


### And I just want to tell you a little 22

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### personal story. There's a lady I know that's in 1


### her early 60s. She's very athletic. She has a 2


### backyard pool. She swims a lot. She swims from 3


### May to about the first of October. I've been 4


### hiking with her, and I have a hard time keeping 5


### up with her. 6



### In the summer of 2012, she came down with 7



### a bad illness, and she didn ' t know what it was. 8


### She laid in bed for a couple of weeks

-- well, 9


### maybe a week. Then she went to see her doctor. 10


### Now, I live in Fairfax County, okay? One 11



### of the wealthiest counties in the United States, 12


### outstanding medical system. She went to see her 13


### doctor. It took her doctor a month to figure out 14


### what the problem w as. She had West Nile virus. 15



### She's never had

-- he had never seen West Nile 16


### before. It's moving up from Texas. 17


### Folks, we got a problem here. Let's fix 18


### it. Thank you very much. 19


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you. 20



### (Pause.) 21



### MR. CULLIGAN: Okay. Our next t wo 22

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### speakers are Leo Cruz and Ronnie Citron

- Fink. 1



### MR. CRUZ: Good morning. I'm Leo Cruz. 2



### MR. CULLIGAN: Do we have Ronnie Citron

3



### Frank? 4



### (Pause.) 5


### MR. CRUZ: Good morning. Thank you for 6


### allowing me the opportunity to testify before you 7


### today on the propos ed carbon standards for our 8


### new power plants. My name is Leo Cruz, and I'm a 9


### former naval gunnery officer serving aboard a 10


### destroyer in Operation Iraqi Freedom. I'm here 11


### representing Operation Free, a nationwide 12



### coalition of over 5,000 veterans and natio nal 13


### security experts who advocate for clean energy 14


### and climate security. 15


### I joined the military because I cared 16


### deeply about service of country and our national 17


### security. I'm here to testify today because, 18


### along with a consensus of senior military and 19



### nati onal security experts, I believe we face a 20


### serious threat to our national security

-- 21


### climate change. 22

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### Severe drought, record heat waves, 1


### extreme storms, food and water shortages, mass 2


### migrations

-- these are but a few of the 3


### dangerous effects of climate ch ange. And they 4


### have very real implications for those whose 5


### primary mission it is to protect our national 6


### security. 7


### Climate change is widely recognized as a 8


### threat multiplier. With more frequent and severe 9


### weather events, destabilizing some of the most 10



### da nger ous regions of the world, exacerb ating 11


### existing national security threats and marginal 12


### living standards, and pushing those states with 13


### weak infrastructure and political instability to 14



### near
- constant crisis. 15


### According to the Departme nt of Defense 16



### Q uadren nial Defense Review, the National 17


### Intelligence Estimates and Natural Security 18


### Strategy, this growing threat of global 19


### instability significantly increases the 20


### likelihood of more troops sent into harm's way. 21


### Additionally, climate change creates a 22

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### strategic d isadvantage for our military and 1



### forces our servicemen and women to divert time 2



### and re sources from primary missions. 3



### In the 2012 National Threat Assessment, 4


### former Director of National Intelligence, Admiral 5



### Dennis Blair , said, and I quote, "As climate 6



### cha nges spurs more humanitarian emergency, the 7


### demand may significantly tax U.S. military 8


### transportation and support force structures, 9


### resulting in strained readiness posture and 10


### decreased strategic depth for combat operations," 11


### end quote. 12



### In 2013, Admiral Sa muel Locklear, the 13



### Combatant Commander for U.S. Pacific Command, was 14


### asked to identify the biggest security challenge 15


### facing his region, in an interview with the 16



### Boston Globe. As Commander of the U.S. Pacific 17


### Command, Admiral Locklear is responsible for a 18


### region of that world that contains the existing 19


### high

- profile security concerns like North Korea, 20


### China, and Japan. However, his response to the 21


### biggest threat is climate change. 22

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### During the last year's Typhoon Haiyan, 1


### more than 14,000 U.S. military person nel were 2


### activated to respond to the crisis. And within 3


### 24 hours, marines were on the ground ready to 4


### provide humanitarian assistance and disaster 5



### relief. The United States receive s the request 6


### to provide humanitarian relief every two weeks, a 7



### number tha t is sure to increase as the impacts of 8


### climate change become more acute. 9


### Additionally, climate change poses a 10



### threat here at ho me, putting our military 11



### installations and critical infrastructure at 12


### risk. And we look to our military to serve as 13


### first respo nders to communities impacted by 14



### extreme weather disasters. 15


### For example, a little over a year ago, 16


### 14,000 defense civilians and military personnel 17


### were mobilized to support federal, state, and 18


### local authorities responding to S uper
- storm 19


### Sandy, providing em ergency relief, and helping 20


### with search and rescue, restoring electricity, 21


### removing debris, and pumping out tunnels. 22

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### The military will always be there to 1


### respond to threats and deliver relief to areas 2


### impacted by climate

- related disasters. But we 3



### should t ake every step, use every possible tool 4



### available to limit the number of these disasters 5


### and mitigate the source. We must take robust 6


### action to combat this growing threat. 7


### By imposing limits on power plants, the 8


### largest source of harmful carbon emissions in the 9


### country, we take aggressive steps to mitigate the 10


### impacts of climate change, increase global 11


### security, and strengthen our national security, 12


### sending fewer of our men and women into harm's 13


### way. Thank you. 14


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 15



### MS. CITRON

- FINK: Good morning. My name 16



### is Ronnie Citron

- Fink. I've traveled from New 17


### York to speak as a mom, a teacher, and a 18


### representative of Moms Clean Air Force. 19


### I was inspired to testify today because a 20


### special family friend passed away last week, Pete 21



### Se e ger. As I joined his family and friends at 22

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### memorials to celebrate his life and legacy, I 1


### heard over and over again about Pete's unwavering 2


### love of protecting the air, the water, and the 3


### land. Pete was known for his passionate concern 4


### for ordinary people, from figh ting for social 5


### justice to cleaning up the river that's just a 6


### stone's throw away from my Hudson Valley home. 7


### Pete believed change would come when 8


### ordinary people sang out and spoke out. So I'm 9


### here to do that. But I promise not to sing. 10



### When asked recen tly about the most 11


### important issue of our time, Pete said, "The 12


### oceans rising may be the wake

- up call to the 13


### whole human race." He hoped in the future that 14


### people from the oil industry were still living so 15


### that they could see what a mistake they made. 16



### We have the opportunity to avoid this 17


### mistake right now. We know human activities are 18


### causing the climate crisis. We know carbon 19


### pollution is warming our planet, contributing to 20


### extreme weather events. We know dirty energy, 21


### the pollution from fossil fuels, is the single 22

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### biggest contributing factor to climate change. 1


### And we know the biggest, dirtiest energy 2


### source is coal. Not only does carbon

- intensive 3


### coal fuel the climate crisis, but pollution from 4


### dirty coal

- fired power plants gets into the air 5



### our fami lies breathe. Our youngest children are 6


### most vulnerable because their respiratory systems 7


### are so tiny and they are still developing. 8


### Coal is no longer the answer to power our 9


### children's future. To further its use is a big 10


### mistake. This is why we need to assure that no 11



### new coal

- fired power plants are built, and 12


### support the EPA's strong carbon pollution 13



### standards. 14


### I remember Pete singing to the children 15


### of my son's kindergarten class 20 years ago. 16


### When he was packing up his banjo, my son asked 17



### him how he could learn to play and sing like him. 18


### And Pete told my son, "Help others. Take care of 19


### the planet. And when you sing for what is right, 20


### others will join." 21



### It's time for u s to sing out against 22

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### anything that pollutes our families' health and 1



### contributes to climate change. Our children and 2


### grandchildren cannot afford this mistake. Thank 3



### you. 4


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 5



### (Pause.) 6


### MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 7


### Betsy Monseu and Marcia Cleveland. 8


### MS. MONSEU: Good morning. My name is 9



### Betsy Monseu, a nd I'm CEO of the American Coal 10



### Council. The ACC has been in existence for 32 11


### years and represents the collective business 12


### interests of the American coal industry. Our 13


### members include coal suppliers, transportation 14


### companies, terminals, electric utilitie s, 15


### industrial consumers, and industry support 16


### services providers. 17


### They touch every aspect of turning one of 18



### America's most abundant resources into reliable, 19


### affordable electricity. I appreciate the 20


### opportunity to address the detrimental impacts 21



### and lack o f benefits for all Americans of EPA's 22

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### proposed greenhouse gas emissions standards for 1


### new fossil plants. 2


### EPA is setting the stage for 3



### s ignificantly altering the U.S. energy mix and, 4


### indeed, its energy policy. These standards 5


### effectively take coal off the table as an option 6


### for new electric generation. Implementation of 7


### the rule will reduce American energy diversity 8


### and security, stop the development of cleaner 9


### coal technologies, increase the risk of higher 10


### electricity prices, and result in negligible CO2 11


### emissions changes, as the EPA has concluded. 12


### With about 28 percent of global coal 13



### reserves here in the U.S., coal h as historically 14



### been our lowest

- cost, most abundant, and most 15


### reliable energy source. It's responsible today 16


### for about 40 percent of U.S. el ectric generation. 17


### It provides good American jobs, over 800,000 18


### direct and indirect jobs. 19


### Its economic importance is illustrated by 20


### examples from the National Association of 21


### Manufacturers. In Indiana, manufacturing is 22

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### responsible for 28.2 percent of the state's 1


### economy, and that's the highest share in the 2


### nation. Eight

- one percent of Indiana's 3


### electricity is generated from coal. In Ohio, 4


### Ohio is third in the nation in manufacturing, 5


### employment, and fifth in energy consumption by 6



### the industrial sector. Seventy

- two percent of 7


### Ohio's electricity is generated from coal. 8


### For American families, the shift away 9


### from coal is equally concerning. A long 10


### recession already caused great hardship. The 11


### cost of energy as a percentage of pre

- tax income 12



### in the last deca de has nearly doubled for the 13


### middle class. Six in ten Americans say a $20

- 14



### per
- month increase in utility bills would create 15


### hardship. One in three Americans qualifies for 16


### energy assistance. Affordable electricity is 17


### vital, and a diverse energy mix under pins that. 18


### EPA asserts that the economic impact of 19


### the proposed standards is insignificant because 20


### utilities are building natural gas plants instead 21


### of coal, due to low natural gas prices. However, 22

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### another factor in those utility decisions is 1



### EPA's burden some regulations. 2


### As to natural gas, EPA apparently assumes 3



### it will remain a low

- cost fuel in perpetuity. 4


### However, consider the example of just this 5


### winter, as periods of colder weather pressured 6


### natural gas prices to over $5 per million BTU. 7



### This is at least 150 percent higher than the 8


### price of gas in the spring of 2012. 9



### There has also been some limitation of 10


### pipeline gas capacity and gas availability. 11


### Since gas can't be stored in inventory at power 12


### plants, as coal can, the effect of a supply 13


### disruption is immediate. In a future without 14


### coal, these natural gas dynamics take on even 15


### greater urgency than today. 16


### Purposefully moving away from energy 17


### diversity is an irresponsible policy choice for 18


### America. Consider also that such a policy choice 19



### will not me aningfully impact global GHG 20



### emissions. U.S. coal plants currently account 21


### for only about 4 percent of such emissions. U.S. 22

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### coal demand is only about 12 percent of total 1


### global coal consumption, whereas Asia is 70 2



### percent. 3


### EIA estimates global coal use w ill rise 4


### about 40 percent by 2035. Low

- cost abundant coal 5


### will continue to be used as a path to reach the 6


### 1.5 billion people today, globally, who have no 7


### electricity access. 8



### The ACC's concerns about EPA's GHG rule 9


### include the requirement for CCS's best sy stem of 10


### emissions reduction. The lack of any commercial

11


### scale power

- sector coal plants with operational 12


### CCS today indicates the technology is not 13


### adequately demonstrated or achievable. 14


### Regulation must not get ahead of technology. 15


### That would be a departu re from past practice and 16


### would set a bad precedent. 17


### EPA has historically based its NSPS 18


### fossil standards on adequately demonstrated 19


### technologies at numerous units fueled by a 20


### variety of coals under varying operating 21


### conditions. For SER technology for NOx emissions 22

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### control, for example, EPA first identified at 1



### least 212 such SER installations. 2


### EPA's presumption that the rule drives 3


### technology and that costs will decrease over time 4


### does not hold up, since the rule dramatically 5


### tilts the playing field away f rom new coal. 6


### Utilities are pushed to make other decisions for 7


### generating capacity, given the costs and 8



### constraints of CCS. 9


### Without ongoing, meaningful government 10


### support for CCS to propel development beyond 11



### first

- generation technologies, and a reasonable 12


### time frame to achieve that, there are too many 13


### obstacles and too much uncertainty for private 14


### developers to move forward. DOE programs for 15


### federal investments in technologies to reduce 16


### emissions have played an essential role for 17



### decades, and that should continue for carbon. 18


### Public and private investments to develop 19


### mature technologies should be encouraged. The 20


### EPA rule will do the opposite. Moving away from 21


### coal unnecessarily risks jobs, as well as energy 22

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### reliability, affordability, security, and 1



### divers ity, for virtually no identified benefits. 2


### To those who proclaim it is a moral 3


### imperative to address climate change, we ask: 4


### Where is the moral imperative to provide 5


### reliable, affordable energy and good jobs in 6


### America? Thank you. 7



### MS. CLEVELAND: Hello. Thank you for the 8


### opportunity to address this panel. My name is 9


### Marcia Cleveland, and I represent two faith 10



### groups, Int erfaith Moral Action on Climate, and 11


### Greater Washington Interfaith Power and Light. 12


### Both groups believe that climate change is a 13


### profo undly spiritual and moral issue and that we 14


### are all called by our faith to care for creation 15


### and those who are suffering because of carbon 16


### pollution. 17


### I've been an environmental lawyer for 40 18


### years. And for most of that time, I have been 19


### trying to decrease emissions from coal plants. 20


### Most of the coal plants that I was suing in the 21


### 1980s are still operating, and some of them are 22

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### older than I am, which is saying something. 1


### I want to outlive these old plants. I 2


### want to win this fight in my lifetime. I want to 3


### see those old plants close. But I'm not here to 4


### talk primarily about the old plants. I'm here to 5


### talk about standards for new plants. 6


### From my point of view, coal and coal

7


### fired electric generating units have been getting 8


### a pass under the Clean Air Act since it was first 9



### enacted. And these new standards are no 10


### exception. Coal has a limit in terms of the 11


### number of pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour emitted 12


### that is higher than that of natural gas. 13


### I ask you, Why? How is that morally 14


### justified? Coal gets the benefit of a variety of 15


### averaging mechanisms, which have the effect of 16


### decreasing its compliance burden when compared to 17


### natural gas. Again I ask, What is the moral 18


### justification for that? Indeed, what is the 19


### moral justification for any new coal

- fire d power 20


### plants? 21


### There's nothing in the Clean Air Act that 22

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### requires EPA to perpetuate any particular 1


### technology if that technology is not good for the 2


### environment and for peop le of this country. I 3



### agree coal has been a very large part of our 4


### history. And I'm here to say that we must change 5


### that history. All history has to move on. Old 6


### historical technologies need to be replaced by 7


### better, cleaner technologies. 8


### There's a growing body of literature that 9


### demonstrates that renewable energy really can 10



### meet ou r needs for electric generation. In 11


### particular, I'm thinking of some studies done in 12



### Stanford of what it would take the State of New 13


### York to go to an all

- renewable system. And in 14


### that study, they showed that the payback period 15


### for the capital investment would be relatively 16


### short because of the benefits, primarily to 17


### health, of going completely away from fossil 18



### fuels. 19


### So now, I would like to ask everyone in 20


### this room to imagine what our society would be 21


### like if we left the old energy system behind, the 22

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### old energy system where you burn something to 1


### generate electricity. And we changed to the new 2


### renewable energy system in which the fuel is 3


### free, nonpolluting, and unlimited. That new 4



### world would be a cleaner world. It would be a 5



### healthier world. And it wo uld be a more just 6



### world. 7


### We all know that the people who live near 8


### the dirtiest plants tend to have a skin tone 9


### considerably darker than mine, and they probably 10


### have an income considerably less than mine. Any 11


### movement away from fossil fuels is movement 12



### t oward justice. 13


### A renewable energy system is inherently 14



### more stable. I live, I have a house on an island 15


### in Maine. And our community has a rural electric 16



### co
- op. We voted, by 384 to 5, to build three 17


### wind turbines that now produce all of our 18


### electricity. The primary drive behind that move 19


### came from small businesses, because they were 20


### being whipsawed by fluctuating electricity 21


### prices. 22

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### Any electric system that depends on 1


### purchasing fuel is ultimately subject to 2



### fluctuation in world markets. So we built win d 3


### turbines for stability, and our electric prices 4


### are about the same. And when we pay off the wind 5


### turbines, they will be a lot less. 6


### This is something we could do for the 7



### whole world. And it would be cleaner and more 8


### just world. 9


### So, from a moral point o f view, from an 10


### ethical point of view, I have difficulty 11


### understanding how you can justify any standard 12


### for carbon pollution from a new source other than 13


### zero. And I urge you to seriously consider 14


### setting a zero standard. Thank you very much. 15



### MR. CULLIGA N: Thank you. Thank both of 16



### you. 17



### (Pause.) 18


### MR. CULLIGAN: Our next two speakers are 19


### Danny Herrin and Jessica Halperin. 20



### (Pause.) 21


### MR. HERRIN: Good morning. I am Danny 22

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### Herrin, Environmental Affairs Director at 1


### Southern Company. Southern Company is an 2



### indu stry leader in carbon capture utilization and 3


### storage, or CCUS. No other electric utility is 4


### doing more around CCUS than Southern Company, and 5


### it is evidenced by our construction of 6


### Mississippi Power's Kemper County energy 7


### facility, which upon completion will be the first 8


### large

- scale integrated integration of CCUS on a 9


### power plant in the U.S. 10



### We also have a 25

- megawatt slipstream 11


### demonstration project at Plant B a rry in Mobile, 12


### Alabama, which has captured and injecting over 13



### 100,000 of carbon dioxide. Addit ionally, we 14


### operate DOE's world

- class National Carbon Caption 15



### Center in Wilsonville, Alabama, which hosts 16


### technologies of all kinds to further the research 17


### and capability of carbon capture. 18


### Because of our industry

- leading research 19


### and demonstration project , Southern Company is 20


### uniquely qualified to comment on this rule. 21


### Today I'd like to make three main points 22

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### on the recently proposed greenhouse gas standards 1



### for new fossil fuel power plants. 2



### First, the Clean Air Act states that new

3


### source performance stand ards must be based on 4


### adequately demonstrated technologies. The EPA 5


### justifies stringent new coal

- fired power plant 6


### standards by referencing four facilities that are 7


### planning to implement CCUS. None of these 8


### facilities, including the Kemper County energy 9


### facility, are currently commercially operating. 10


### And further, two of the projects are not yet 11



### under construction. 12


### Clearly, the referenced facilities have 13


### not adequately demonstrated CCUS, and the re

14


### proposed standards should not rely on them. 15



### Furthermore, the Kemper County energy 16


### facility is a first

- of

- its

- kind DOE

- funded 17


### project that will demonstrate transport

18


### integrated gasification, or TRIG, technology and 19


### the integrati on of advanced syngas cleanup. In 20


### developing the technology, Southern Company and 21



### DOE have agreed to jointly evaluate the facility 22

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### for a four

- and

- a
- half

- year period after it begins 1


### operations. 2


### While the Kemper County energy facility 3



### marks a significant technological milestone, it 4


### is only a first step in the integration of one 5


### type of carbo n
- capture technology with a specific 6


### generation technology. Experiences gained from 7


### the Kemper County energy facility, as well as 8


### from many more fully integrated applications of 9



### CCUS on full

- scale power plants , are needed 10


### before the technology can be cons idered 11


### adequately demonstrated. 12


### In addition, the location of the Kemper 13


### County energy facility, which is close to its 14


### fuel source and existing CO2 pipelines, makes the 15


### facility the right choice for Mississippi and 16


### other parts of the country that share thes e 17


### common characteristics. However, due to its many 18



### site

- specific characteristics, the Kemper County 19


### energy facility cannot be consistently replicated 20



### on a national level and should not be used in 21


### developing a national standard for greenhouse 22

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### gases. 1



### Second , the EPA's proposed standard for 2


### natural gas combined

- cycle units are too 3


### stringent. The EPA must set the standard at a 4


### rate that allows these units to operate across a 5


### range of power generation modes. 6


### Historically, operations of natural gas 7


### combined cyc les, as analyzed by EPA, may not be 8



### in dicative of future operations. 9


### From experience operating our own 10



### combined

- cycle fleet, we know that many ever

11


### changing demands

-- that many different modes of 12


### operation are needed to respond to the 13



### instantaneous and ev er
- changing demands of the 14


### electric grid, which could require combined cycle 15


### units to operate above the proposed standard for 16


### prolonged periods of time, hindering the 17


### operational flexibility of combined cycles that 18


### impact costs, system reliability and incr ease the 19


### risk of operating. 20



### EPA must address these critical concerns 21


### by increasing the proposed standards for natural 22

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### gas combined cycles. 1


### Lastly, EPA's proposed requirement on 2


### coal and natural gas units are inconsistent with 3


### the Clean Air Act requirements for developing 4



### new
- source performance standards. The current 5


### path would eliminate fuel diversity for new power 6


### plants in many areas and dangerously constrain 7


### the energy resources of our nation. 8



### However, if EPA should move forward, 9


### there are a few aspects of the current proposal 10


### that should be retained. For example, Southern 11


### Company believes it is appropriate to separate 12



### standards for coal and combined

- cycle units into 13


### subparts Da and Quad K and to develop standards 14


### based on gross emission rates. 15



### Southern Company also believes modified 16



### and reconstructed units must continue to be 17


### excluded from this rulemaking. Southern Company 18


### appreciates the opportunity to engage with EPA on 19


### this extremely important rulemaking. Thank you. 20


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 21



### MS. HA LPERIN: Hi. My name is Jessica 22

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### Halperin, and I'm the environmental justice staff 1


### person for the Unitarian Universalists 2


### Association. And I'm here to provide another 3



### faith

- based perspective in support of the 4


### proposed rule. 5


### We appreciate the opportunity t o comment 6


### today, and we're grateful for the collaborative 7


### work that the EPA has already done to ensure that 8



### these carbon emissions standards are as flexible 9


### as possible, while protecting public health, our 10



### common natural resources, and our common home. 11



### Uni tarian Universalists know that the 12


### destiny of the earth is our own, and we recognize 13



### the intrinsic value of all life and envision a 14


### world in which every person is assured a secure 15


### and meaningful life that is ecologically 16


### responsible and sustainable. 17



### Our wo rld is call ing us together in 18


### community in response to climate change from our 19


### moral and spiritual wealth, and Unitarian 20


### Universalists have been heeding this call for 21


### more than 50 years. As a non

- creedal tradition, 22

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### we know that there is no need for a gap between 1


### science and faith. The scientific reality is 2



### that action is needed immediately to prevent the 3


### worst impacts of climate change. And Unitarian 4


### Universalists acknowledge, with gratitude, that 5


### the mysteries of the universe, which some might 6



### call God, are larger than we'll ever be able to 7


### comprehend. 8


### Working to understand our universe, 9


### though, brings us close to these mysteries and 10


### allows us to celebrate and safeguard our place in 11


### the web of life. Many opponents of action on 12


### industrial carbon pollutio n ignore or deny the 13



### science that tells us it's time to act. It takes 14


### faith to put our future beyond the profits of 15


### today, to put the needs of already marginalized 16


### communities before the desires of people already 17


### at the top of political and corporate powe r 18



### structures. 19


### And so, there is a strong showing by the 20


### faith community in this hearing today, as there 21


### has been for a long time and as there will be for 22

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### as long as it takes. 1


### Unitarian Universalist congregations are 2


### models of energ y stewardship. Approximat ely a 3


### quarter of our congregations across the country 4


### have taken enormous steps to reduce their 5


### footprint and green their sanctuaries. 6


### A significant majority of our 7


### congregations find ways to work for environmental 8


### justice in their communities, but our act ions 9


### alone will not be enough, as carbon plants are 10


### responsible for about 40 percent of carbon 11


### pollution in the United States, which is why 12


### several Unitarian Universalists are testifying at 13


### this hearing today. We can't do this alone. 14



### And we do this work t hrough the framework 15


### of environmental justice, which means that we 16


### stand with historically marginalized and low

17



### income communities. We seek to understand the 18


### perspectives of, and ally with, people who are 19


### trying to survive environmental racism. 20



### The ill ef fects of climate change are so 21


### often focused on neighborhoods and communities 22

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### which lack the resources to escape these effects. 1



### The costs of our inaction on these communities 2


### and many others have already been great: 3



### wo rsened air quality, which means more asthma 4


### attacks among children; increased transmission of 5



### infectious diseases from insects, food, and 6


### water; increased impacts from extreme weather 7



### like Hurricane Katrina. 8



### Unitarian Universalists and we believe 9



### the EPA and the U.S. Government are called to 10


### stand against these gross inequalities of race 11


### and income. We know that the dichotomy which so 12


### many draw between economic prosperity and 13


### environmental justice is a false one. Green

14


### collar jobs and a green economy must be our 15


### future. And it's not only p ossible, but it's 16



### necessary. 17


### So, as we seek justice for the earth and 18


### for our neighbors, as we grow closer to the 19


### mystery of God through understanding the 20


### scientific basis of life on earth and the messy 21


### effects of that life, the EPA has a partner in 22

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### the Un itarian Universalists Association and our 1


### member congregations. 2


### We must all take a place in our line of 3


### generations which inhabit the earth and the line 4


### of people who will look up and say, "We have done 5


### what is right." Thank you. 6


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank you. 7


### Before you leave, Danny, you were talking 8



### about combined

- cycle units not being able to meet 9


### the 1,000 standard. Are you guys in your 10


### comments going to provide data helping us 11



### understand what the circumstances are? 12



### MR. HERRIN: Yes, we will. 13



### MR. CULLIGAN: Okay. Thanks. 14



### (Pause.) 15


### MR. CULLIGAN: All right. Our last two 16


### speakers for the morning are Matt Walker and Dr. 17



### Jalonne White

- Newsome. 18


### And before you two start speaking, just a 19


### reminder for everyone in the audience, and our 20


### speakers, too, if any of you are planning on 21


### leaving the building and getting lunch during the 22

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### break and coming back, make sure you keep the 1


### security pass when you came in the building so 2


### they will easily let you back in. 3


### MR. WALKER: Good morning. My name is 4



### Matt Walker, and I'm the Outreach Director for 5



### Clean Air Council. Clean Air Council is a 6


### nonprofit environmental organization 7


### headquartered in Philadelphia, PA. The council 8


### has members throughout Pennsylvania, New Jersey, 9



### and Delaware. 10


### For more than 40 years, the council has 11



### fo ught to improve air quality across the region. 12


### The council's mission is to protect everyone's 13


### right to breathe clean air. On behalf of the 14


### council and its members, I thank you for this 15


### opportunity to testify today. 16


### The council applauds EPA for moving 17



### for ward with this rule, which is a necessary step 18


### in addressing the serious threat to public health 19


### posed by climate change. As the council spelled 20


### out in detail in previous written comments to 21


### EPA, we believe, contrary to arguments advanced 22

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### by some in the f ossil

- fuel industry, that EPA 1


### does indeed have the authority to regulate carbon 2



### emissions under Section 111 of the Clean Air Act. 3


### We are fully supportive of EPA's proposal 4


### to put clear and direct emissions limitations on 5



### new fossil

- fuel

- burning power plant s. That being 6


### said, we hope you will consider the following 7


### comments when drafting the final rule: 8


### First, the rule as currently proposed 9


### does not ask for enough in terms of CO2 emission 10


### reductions from natural gas plants. It limits 11



### CO2 emissions from nat ural gas plants to 1,000 or 12


### 1,100 pounds per megawatt hour, depending on 13



### their size. 14



### Given the natural

- gas
- fired generation in 15


### the U.S. average is 1,135 pounds of CO2 per 16


### megawatt hour, this 1,000

- pound limit does not 17


### represent any significant pressure on natural gas 18


### producers to reduce their emissions. If plants 19


### are in fact required to reduce emissions at all, 20


### the required reduction will be insignificant in 21


### comparison to the reduction being required of 22

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### coal plants. 1


### Under the proposed rule, coal

- fired powe r 2


### plants will be required to reduce their carbon 3


### dioxide emissions by more than 1,000 pounds per 4


### megawatt hour, according to EPA estimations. The 5


### result of such a rule will be to make our energy 6


### grids increasingly dependent on natural gas, as 7


### compared to coal, or more critically, to 8


### renewable energy. 9


### This is not an effective long

- term 10


### solution to the problem of climate change that 11


### EPA is explicitly seeking to address in 12


### developing these new carbon rules. The bottom 13


### line is that natural gas is a fossil fue l. And 14


### it generates significant emissions of greenhouse 15


### gases, including CO2 , at every stage of its life 16


### cycle. 17


### We're particularly concerned about this 18


### in Pennsylvania, where we sit on top of a large 19


### portion of the Marcellus shell deposit. We urge 20



### EPA to develop a rule that holds the natural gas 21


### industry to a higher standard, and in doing so, 22

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### promotes a shift to renewable energy sources and 1


### the development of effective energy efficiency 2


### programs, rather than continued reliance on 3


### another polluting fossil fuel. 4


### There's another reason why holding 5


### natural gas plants to a more stringent standard 6


### makes a lot of sense. Extracting, processing, 7


### transporting, and ultimately burning natural gas 8


### all represent

-- result in a high level of 9


### emissions, not just of carbo n dioxide, but also 10


### of methane. Methane is a primary component of 11


### natural gas and also a highly potent greenhouse 12



### gas. 13


### According to the Intergovernmental Panel 14


### on Climate Change, methane is at least 72 times 15


### more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxid e 16



### over a 20

- year time period. A paper published in 17


### the Proceedings of the National Academy of 18


### Sciences, and authored by scientists from leading 19


### institutions around the world, recently found 20


### that the rate of methane leakage from natural gas 21


### production, whi ch EPA recently estimated at 1.5 22

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### percent, is in fact 3 percent or higher. 1


### Studies of leakage in specific locations 2


### over shorter periods of time found leakage rates 3


### of 4 percent in Denver, 6 to 12 percent in Utah, 4


### 17 percent in the LA Basin. These levels o f 5


### leakage are high enough to contribute 6


### significantly to climate change and to wipe out 7


### any benefits gained by switching from coal to 8


### natural gas. 9


### The council urges EPA to adopt a more 10


### stringent standard for natural gas plants that 11


### requires meaningful redu ctions in CO2 emissions 12


### from the natural gas industry as well, and avoids 13


### simply replacing coal with another highly 14


### problematic fossil fuel. 15


### The council also asks EPA to move quickly 16



### to also set new standards for methane emissi ons 17



### f r o m gas
- fired power plan ts, using Section 111D 18



### of the Clean Air Act. 19



### In addition, EPA should reevaluate the 20


### emissions limits for both natural gas and coal 21


### plants on a regular basis, and make them 22

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### increasingly stringent over time. This is the 1


### best way to ensure that the fossil fu el industry 2


### is consistently incentivized to develop and 3


### incorporate new technologies that allow burning 4



### of fossil fuels with fewer carbon emissions. 5


### The Clean Air Act requires that a 6


### standard of performance for both new and existing 7



### sources reflect the bes t syst em of emissions 8



### reductions, which the administrator determines 9


### has been adequately demonstrated. This provision 10


### has been interpreted by the D.C. Circuit as being 11


### technology forcing, as looking toward what may 12


### fairly be projected for the regulated fu ture, 13


### rather than being based on the present state of 14


### technology. 15


### EPA therefore has both authority and an 16


### obligation to develop a rule that imposes 17


### increasingly stringent standards over time and 18


### encourages industry to develop better 19


### technologies in order t o meet those standards. 20


### This rule is a laudable step toward reducing U.S. 21


### carbon emissions and addressing the increasingly 22

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### critical climate change crisis. 1


### We have passed 400 parts per million 2


### carbon dioxide in our atmosphere, and we cannot 3


### simply afford t o wait any longer to take action. 4


### The Clean Air Council urges EPA to promulgate a 5


### rule that requires natural gas plants make 6


### meaningful reductions in their emissions and that 7



### incentivize all fossil

- fuel

- burning plants to 8


### develop and incorporate increasing ly better 9


### technologies. Thanks for your time. 10



### MS. WHITE

- NEWSOME: Greetings, and thank 11


### you for the opportunity to be here today and 12


### share some comments on the proposed rule for 13


### regulating greenhouse gases form new sources. My 14



### name is Dr. Jalonne White

- Ne wsome, and I 15


### currently work as the Federal Policy Analyst for 16



### WE ACT for Environmental Justice, a 25

- year
- old 17


### community

- based environmental justice 18


### organization. 19


### We're headquartered in Harlem, New York, 20



### but I work out of our D.C. office, with the 21


### majority of my work working on federal policies, 22

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### specifically air and climate

- change issues. 1


### Our mission has always been to make sure 2



### that communities of color and those that are low 3


### income have a voice in policies and programs that 4


### could disproportionately impact their health. 5


### First and foremost, thank you for the 6



### EPA, the Office of Air and Radiation, for the 7


### work that you do and have done. I firmly believe 8


### that breathing clean air is a human right, a 9


### civil right, and one that should be afforded to 10


### all regardless of your zip code, the color of 11


### your skin, or the amount of wages shown on your 12



### W

- 2. 13


### In fact, five days from now, on February 14


### 11th, we will be acknowledging the 20th 15


### anniversary of the Executive Order on 16


### Environmental Justice. And I guess just 17


### yesterday, t he EPA Administrator announced that 18


### February 2014 will be, I guess, regarded as 19



### Environmental Justice Month. 20


### So, the purpose of this executive order, 21


### again, was to make sure that federal agencies 22

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### make EJ a part of their mission by making sure 1


### that their pr ograms, policies, and activities do 2


### not cause disproportionately high or adverse 3



### health or environmental effects on low

- income 4



### communities of color. So , while this order 20 5


### years ago was a step in the right direction, I 6


### believe we still have some things t o do. 7


### Consequently, I want to share with you 8


### some general thoughts, not really technical, but 9


### as you move forward with the task of revising and 10


### addressing the comments to the rules for new 11


### future power plants, there's two areas that I 12


### want you to think abo ut. 13



### The first are false solutions to the 14


### mitigation of carbon that would cause more harm 15



### to EJ communities. And the second is the 16


### importance of a cumulative impact strategy to 17


### address coal pollutants. 18



### So, WE ACT and 33 members of our National 19



### Coalition on Environmental Justice consider clean 20


### coal technologies, like carbon capture and 21


### sequestration, to be unproven, expensive, and 22

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### energy
- intensive technology. We are concerned 1


### that the disproportionate siting of these types 2


### of plants will occur in our neighb orhoods and in 3



### our communities and add even more local toxins to 4


### the already

- polluted air. Another concern is the 5


### potential for the leaks of these capture 6


### facilities and the contamination of groundwater 7



### sources. 8


### We would rather the Agency's time and 9



### resou rces not be spent on proving out this 10


### technology, but on making renewables and energy

11


### efficiency measures a dominant part of the 12



### solution. 13


### Secondly, the EPA needs to seriously 14


### consider including not only the environmental 15


### justice guidance documents as a pa rt of this 16


### rule, but the guidance you have developed around 17



### cumulative risk assessment. 18


### Forcing these two guidances to be a part 19


### of the states' implementation portfolio would 20


### encourage key state

- level decision

- makers to 21


### consider not only carbon, but the mu ltiple 22

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### pollution sources that are already present in 1


### many of our communities like Harlem, New York, 2


### where WE ACT is based, and many others that are 3


### already experiencing extreme health disparities, 4


### as well as concerns for climate change. 5



### The use of EJ scree ning tools, as well as 6


### health impact assessments and other EJ

- scoring 7


### methods, could provide important information to 8


### guide these decisions and what you determine to 9



### be the thresholds of emissions. 10



### So , in summary, we all know that power 11


### plants are one of t he largest sources of carbon 12


### pollution in the country. We also know that 13


### there are children, seniors, the poor, other 14


### vulnerable populations, those living in coastal 15



### communities, and those in our urban centers that 16


### are already feeling the impacts of clima te change 17


### more acutely because of carbon pollution. 18


### It is therefore important that the EPA 19


### and all of the federal agencies present solutions 20


### to curb carbon pollution and not cause more harm 21



### to communities of color. 22

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### So, please consider the ramifications of 1


### the strategies that you suggest, such as CCS. 2


### Consider the collective effects of pollution in 3


### environmental justice communities. And most 4


### importantly, make sure that the EPA is 5


### meaningfully engaging with environmental justice 6


### advocates across the country to fulfill the 7


### spirit and the intentions of the executive order. 8


### We don't want to go really look back 20 9


### years from now and regret that, you know, not 10


### really considering all the pieces to this 11


### pollution puzzle. So, thank you for your time 12


### and your consid eration. 13


### MR. CULLIGAN: Thank both of you. 14



### And we will now take a break till one 15



### o'clock. 16


### (Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m., a luncheon 17


### recess was taken, to reconvene at 1:02 p.m. 18

19

20

21

22

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### AFTERNOON SESSION 1



### 1:0 2 p.m. 2



### MR. HAEUBER: Shall we? Good afternoon , 3


### and thank you for attending this public hearing. 4


### My name is Rick Haeuber, and I'm Chief of the 5



### Assessment and Communications Branch in EPA's 6


### Clean Air Markets Division. I will be chairing 7


### this afternoon's hearing session. 8


### Joining me on the panel are N ick Hutson, 9


### with the Sector Policy and Programs Division, and 10


### Ellen Kurlansky, with the Office of Policy 11


### Analysis and Review. 12


### We're here today to listen to your 13


### comments on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 14


### standard for new power plants. EPA published the 15


### proposed standards in the Federal Register on 16


### January 8th, 2014. This commonsense step under 17



### the Clean Air Act would, for the first time, set 18


### national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 19


### power plants built in the future c an emit. 20


### EPA is proposing to set an emissions 21


### standard of 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide, or 22

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### CO2, per megawatt hour on a gross

- output basis 1



### for new fossil

- fuel

- fired utility boilers and for 2


### integrated gasification combined

- cycle units. 3


### The EPA is also proposing standards for natural

4



### gas
- fired combustion turbines. 5


### Those proposed standards are 1,000 pounds 6


### of CO2 per megawatt hour for large combustion

7


### turbine units, and 1,100 pounds of CO2 per 8


### megawatt hour for small combustion

- turbine units. 9


### The Agency's proposal was not applied t o 10


### existing units. The EPA's proposed standard 11


### reflects the ongoing trend in the power sector to 12



### build cleaner lower

- emitting power plants. The 13


### proposal is flexible and would help minimize 14


### carbon pollution through the deployment of the 15


### same types of moder n technologies that power 16


### companies are already using to build the next 17


### generation of power plants. EPA's proposal will 18


### ensure that this progress toward a cleaner, 19


### safer, and more modern power sector continues. 20


### Today, we will be accepting oral comments 21



### o n all aspects of our proposal, and we will 22

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### prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 1


### transcript will be available as part of the 2


### official record for this rule, and will be placed 3


### in the regulatory docket. We are also accepting 4



### written comments on the proposed rule until March 5



### 10th, 2014. 6


### At the registration area, which is 7


### located in the lobby outside of this room, there 8


### are handouts with detailed information outlining 9


### how to submit written comments by mail, fax, or 10


### electronically. EPA will consid er your comments 11


### as we move forward to complete a final rule. 12


### Written statements and supporting information 13


### submitted during the comment period will be 14


### considered with the same weight as any oral 15


### comments and supporting information presented at 16


### today's he aring. 17


### Now let me describe the logistics for 18


### today's hearing. I will call the scheduled 19


### speakers to the table in pairs. When it is your 20


### turn to speak, please state your name and your 21


### affiliation before you begin your testimony. It 22

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### would help our Court Reporter if you would also 1


### spell out your name before you start. 2


### In order to be fair to everyone, we will 3


### limit your testimony to five minutes each and ask 4


### that everyone remains at the table until both 5


### speakers in a pair have finished. After you have 6



### fin ished your testimony, members of the panel may 7


### ask clarifying questions. If you would like to 8


### provide us a copy of your testimony, you can give 9


### a copy to the registration desk out in the lobby, 10


### or we recommend that you follow the procedures 11



### that I outline d before with regard to submitting 12


### documents to the regulatory docket. 13


### We have a timekeeping system consisting 14


### of green, yellow, and red lights to help you keep 15


### track of your five minutes to speak. When you 16


### begin speaking, the green light will come on. 17


### The yellow light will signal that you have one 18


### minute left to speak. When the red light comes 19


### on, five minutes has passed and I will ask that 20


### you please complete your testimony. 21


### Today's hearing is scheduled from 9:00 22

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### a.m. to 5:00 p.m., or rather will con tinue to 1


### 8:00 p.m., or later if necessary, depending on 2


### the number of speakers. We will be taking a 3


### dinner break from 5:00 to 6:00 p.m. 4


### For those who have already registered to 5


### speak, we have tried to accommodate your requests 6


### for specific time slots. W e ask for your 7


### patience as we proceed through the list of 8


### speakers. We may need to make some adjustments 9


### as the day progresses. 10


### If any questions arise through out the 11


### day, please see a staff member at the 12


### registration table for assistance. 13


### Thank you all for participating today, 14


### and let's get started. 15


### So, the first couple of speakers I'd like 16



### to call forward are Shaun Dakin

-- hopefully, 17


### I've gotten your name correctly pronounced

-- and 18



### Natalie Pien. 19



### Mr. Dakin? 20


### MR. DAKIN: Okay. Hi. Good afternoon. 21



### I'm Shaun Dakin, and I live in Falls Church, 22

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### Virginia, and I'm speaking today as a 1


### representative of Moms Clean Air Force, and a 2


### dad. My son is nine years old. 3


### I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak 4


### with you today in support of the EPA's proposed 5



### car bon standards for new power plants. Moms 6


### Clean Air Force is a community of moms and dads 7


### who are united by concern over the effects of air 8


### pollution and climate change on our children's 9



### health. 10



### We read the health research on air 11


### pollution, and we've lear ned a lot about the 12


### health effects of breathing dirty air. We know 13


### that in its many forms, air pollution has been 14


### linked to major health problems of our time. We 15



### see that asthma attacks, heart attacks, heart 16


### disease, stroke, lung cancer, premature death, 17


### emergency room visits, hospital admissions, all 18


### of these health problems have been linked to air 19


### pollution. Many of these problems harm our 20


### children in particular. 21



### And we at Moms Clean Air Force think that 22

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### that's unacceptable. Moms Clean Air Force has 1


### over 200,000 moms, dads, grandparents, and 2


### concerned citizens that are working for a clean 3



### air future for all of us. I'm a dad. And I care 4


### about the future of our planet for myself, but I 5


### really care about the future of our planet for my 6



### son and his futu re children. 7


### We're very lucky. My son has grown up 8


### going to the beaches of Rhode Island and 9


### Maryland, enjoying the sun, water, and sand, and 10


### collecting sea glass. I worry about what will 11


### happen to these beaches as he grows up and his 12



### children are born. Will climate change increase 13



### the sea levels so that all that he knows now will 14


### soon be under water? Will he be able to bring 15



### his children to these same beaches? 16


### Right now, the house we go to each summer 17


### in Rhode Island, since 1976, is surrounded by 18



### wate r on all sides. The road that leads to the 19


### house was washed out during a storm, making it 20


### almost impossible to get to the home. I want to 21


### be able to tell my son that this home will be 22

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### there forever. But I can't. Due to climate 1


### change, there's a good po ssibility that this 2


### summer home will no longer be reachable. 3



### I'm here to ask that EPA take action. 4


### The EPA should propose strong carbon pollution 5


### standards for new power plants so they can't dump 6


### unlimited amounts of dangerous carbon pollution 7



### into the a ir. In fact, addressing climate change 8


### is our obligation to our children and future 9


### generations, and the EPA can take the largest 10


### step our country has ever taken in that effort by 11


### limiting carbon pollution from new power plants. 12


### Thank you. 13



### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, Mr. Dakin. 14


### MS. PIEN: Hello. Thank you for the 15


### opportunity to speak to you today. My name is 16


### Natalie Pien, and I represent a local chapter of 17


### Bill McKibben's 350.org, 350 Loudon. 18


### I'm a strong supporter of regulations for 19



### carbon dioxide emis sions from new electric power 20


### plants. I live in nearby Leesburg, Virginia, 21


### where I'm a public schoolteacher. I have 22

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### cosponsored an ecology club for the past 15 1



### years. 2


### Regrettably , the environmental 3


### stewardship that my students have developed is 4



### not in t he dialog of today's adults who are in 5



### power. The corporate greed of my generation's 6


### oil industry executives has made a goal for 7



### short

- term profits rather than long

- term 8


### sustainability. 9


### I think that the oil industry would do 10



### well to follow the lead of th e pharmacy chain, 11


### CVS, which has boldly put profits secondary to 12


### people. As it is, I am fearful for the future my 13



### students will face. 14


### More immediately, I'm concerned about the 15


### safety of my younger daughter El ise , a straight

- A 16



### student her entire academic career from first 17


### grade through twelfth grade, and even in college, 18


### despite my repeated encouragements to get a B. 19


### (Laughter.) 20


### MS. PIEN: And she graduated magna cum 21


### laude, and this is her graduation picture last 22

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### spring. 1


### She is now living in Norfolk, Vi rginia, 2


### pursuing a graduate degree in physical therapy. 3


### Norfolk, due to its geography and population 4



### distribution, will become the next New Orleans 5


### when it is hit by a major storm. Luckily, Sandy 6



### did not strike Norfolk, but luck cannot be 7



### depended upon. And Elise, through no fault of 8


### her own, is living in harm's way. 9


### Sea level rise is already impacting the 10



### Norfolk area. The Unitarian Universalist Church 11


### of Norfolk advises its congregation to check the 12


### tide table before coming to worship in order to 13



### avo id flooded areas. 14


### The Virginia Assembly recognizes this 15


### problem and has a bill to study it. However, in 16


### order to get the bill passed, the liberal words 17


### such as "sea level rise" and "climate change" 18



### could not be used. Instead, the bill uses the 19



### climate

- d enial words "effects of recurrent 20


### flooding." 21


### The Supreme Court has affirmed EPA's 22

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### authority to regulate carbon dioxide. And I urge 1


### you to do so in an expedient manner. Do not 2


### consider climate in my arguments. Do not 3


### compromise on regulations limiting c arbon 4


### pollution from new power plants. Instead, act 5


### aggressively to promulgate effective regulations 6


### that will limit carbon pollution to the extent 7


### necessary and , in time, to make a difference. 8


### We, the people, are depending upon you to 9


### prevent the oil in dustry from continuing to put 10


### profit above people and ruin the planet while 11


### they're at it. The externalities of producing 12


### power from fossil fuels must be addressed by the 13


### industry. The price of carbon pollution must be 14


### paid by the polluter, not the peopl e through 15



### increased health care costs, infrastructure 16



### costs, or insurance costs. 17


### The playing field must be leveled so that 18


### alternative forms of energy will be competitive, 19


### so that our electrical energy needs can be met in 20


### a sustainable fashion. Use your authority to 21


### help our society transition to one that is 22

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### sustainable by using renewable energy. 1


### We need it to protect our environment so 2



### that we can live in a world safe from extreme 3


### climate change. We need you to earn, if you 4


### will, a straight

- A record on this issue. There 5


### is no such thing as being an over

- achiever when 6


### fighting climate change. 7



### The air we breathe is an essential common 8


### resource for everyone, and it must be protected. 9


### We owe it to our children and future generations. 10


### They deserve to liv e in a world as rich and 11


### vibrant and diverse as the one we grew up in. 12


### Thank you. 13


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, Ms. Pien. 14


### The next two speakers are Joelle Novey

-- 15


### I hope I got that right

-- and Madison Poche. 16


### Joelle Novey? 17



### (Pause.) 18



### MS. NOVEY: I'm Joelle Novey with 19


### Interfaith Power and Light. Through Interfaith 20


### Power and Light, hundreds of congregations in 21


### Northern Virginia, D.C., and Maryland are working 22

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### together to respond to climate change. I am 1


### holding a stack of messages for you from folks in 2



### our l ocal religious communities, calling on the 3


### EPA to set strong limits on carbon pollution. 4


### When an earlier version of this safeguard 5


### was proposed, 3.2 million Americans sent messages 6


### to the EPA in support of the rule

-- 3.2 million. 7



### It can be hard to make sense of really big 8


### numbers, but please take a moment to remember 9


### that there is a face like mine behind every one 10



### of those comments. 11


### In the Interfaith Power and Light 12


### network, let me give you a sense where some of 13



### those 3.2 million comments came from. Vo lunteers 14


### set up card tables after services in their 15


### congregations in the very communities where they 16


### find sustenance and direction. During fellowship 17


### hour, as people schmooze d to drink coffee and 18


### chased children, these volunteers spoke with 19



### their friends about why they support national 20


### limits on carbon pollution. 21


### And then, one by one, caring people in 22

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### congregations around the country signed postcards 1


### to the EPA, where they joined thousands and 2


### thousands of similar messages. 3


### These folks gathered comments because 4


### they understand that the numbers about what is 5


### happening to our climate are also numbers with 6



### faces behind them. The concentrations of carbon 7


### dioxide in our atmosphere, up over 400 parts per 8


### million, is higher than it has ever been in 9



### hundreds of thousands of years. The temperature 10


### has already gone up 1.4 degrees in the past 150 11


### years, and global average temperature is rising 12



### faster and faster. Those numbers, too, are 13


### really about human faces. 14


### The religious communities in which I work 15



### are heart sick about the stronger storms, 16


### devastating floods, droughts, disease, and 17


### displacement that a warming world is already 18


### causing. Climate change is hurting our neighbors 19



### close to home and around the world. 20


### Let me tell you about why I am one of the 21



### million s of people who decided to speak out to 22

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### the EPA in support of carbon pollution limits. 1


### The teaching from my own tradition that informs 2


### my thoughts on this come s from Rabbi Isaac ben 3



### Sheshet, a fourteenth

- century scholar of Jewish 4



### law. He wrote, "One is f orbidden from gaining a 5


### livelihood at the expense of another's health." 6


### "One is forbidden from gaining a livelihood at 7


### the expense of another's health." Simple, 8


### ethical wisdom, not bad for the Middle Ages. 9


### For too long, here, now, those who build 10



### our po wer plants have been permitted to gain 11


### their livelihoods at the expense of people's 12



### health. There have been limits on other kinds of 13


### pollutants, but there have been no limits at all 14


### on carbon pollution. 15


### You'll be hearing a lot from polluters in 16



### the comin g days, saying that any limits on carbon 17


### pollution will interfere with their jobs. They 18


### have every right to make an honorable living. 19


### But it should be forbidden in this country for 20


### anyone to make their livelihood at the expense of 21


### people's health

-- 3.2 million Americans took the 22

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### time to contact the EPA to say so. 1


### In the religious communities with which I 2


### work, people are working to reduce their 3


### electricity use in their sanctuaries and at home. 4


### They are climbing up on ladders to change to more 5



### efficient light bulbs. They are working together 6


### to support clean energy through their energy 7


### bills. They fought hard to bring offshore wind 8


### power to Maryland's coast, and they are willing 9


### to spend many hours in committee meetings 10


### figuring out how to finance sola r panels for 11



### their roofs. 12


### So often, we are told that the change we 13


### are trying to make is unrealistic because clean 14


### energy is so expensive, while dirty energy is 15


### cheap. But who pays for dirty energy? Who bears 16


### the cost of bad air quality, the cost of kid s 17


### with asthma and seniors having heart attacks and 18


### pregnant mothers with mercury in their bodies? 19


### Who bears the cost of stronger storms, extreme 20


### drought, devastating floods, and other scary 21


### weather caused by climate change? 22

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### Any energy we pay for through the 1



### permanent destruction of our climate, any energy 2


### people pay for with our health isn't cheap 3


### energy. It is intolerably expensive. This isn't 4


### about numbers. It's about people. 5


### Please proceed to issue and approve 6


### strong carbon pollution standards for new power 7


### plants, and then for all other major sources of 8


### climate pollution. 9


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 10


### MS. POCHE: Hello. My name is Madison 11



### Poche, P

- o
- c
- h

- e. I work with Environment 12


### Virginia, which is a statewide citizen

- based 13


### environmental advocacy or ganization. But today I 14


### am here as a citizen and as a young person who 15


### has decided to make it my life's work to help 16


### tackle global warming, which is the most pressing 17


### environmental challenge of our time. 18


### I'm actually a fourth

- generation New 19



### Orleani an, wh ich despite the city's reputation, 20


### was a fantastic place to grow up. It's the place 21



### where my father achieved his dream of starting a 22

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### small business. It's the place where my family 1


### has been going to the same high school for 2


### generations. 3



### It's also where I learned to take time to 4


### enjoy the unique food and music and festivals 5


### that create community and culture that we hold so 6



### dear. 7


### So, when Hurricane Katrina hit, my home 8


### was under water, along with my father's business 9


### and that high school. And while we can count the 10


### deaths and personal bankruptcies and tax dollars 11


### that flowed in for recovery after the storm, it's 12


### harder to quantify the kind of grief that extreme 13



### weather causes on communities. 14


### Global climate change, I know that I'm 15


### one of the lucky ones. With increasingly 16


### frequent and severe extreme weather events, from 17


### stronger storms to record

- breaking droughts, to 18


### floods and forest fires, climate change puts 19



### fundamental human needs, like food and shelter, 20



### at risk. 21



### So now I see this work, so that in my 22

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### work in the Hampton Roads areas and other 1


### communities, that we have an opportunity to take 2



### action before it's too late. And we have 3


### solutions. Clean pollution

- free energy is 4


### already proven and commercially viable and 5


### working and taking off. 6



### So, we have a great opportunity to take 7


### action and to say that building new dirty power 8


### plants is not in the best interest of communities 9


### across America. Thank you. 10


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 11



### The next two speakers, Senator Sheldon 12



### White house and Joe O'Shea. 13



### Good aft ernoon, Senator. 14



### SENATOR WHITEHOUSE: Good afternoon. 15


### Should I proceed? 16



### MR. HAEUBER: Please. 17



### SENATOR WHITEHOUSE: I don't need to be 18



### sworn in here, huh? 19


### (Laughter.) 20



### SENATOR WHITEHOUSE: I'm used to being on 21


### the other end of the hearings. 22

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### This year is our 37th straight year with 1



### a global temperature above the twentieth

- century 2


### average. It's the fourth hottest year on record 3



### in the Continental United States. 4


### As we sit here in this hearing, 5


### California and parts of Nevada are experiencing 6



### extreme drou ght. A report today said California 7


### hadn't seen dry weather like that since 1580. 8


### Parts of Oregon are under severe drought. This 9


### past fall, Colorado had what scientists call a 1

- 10



### in

- 1,000

- year flood. And we in New England are 11


### still digging out from the effects of Hurricane 12


### Sandy, which topped the 500

- year storm flood 13


### lines in New York City. 14


### Carbon dioxide levels are way outside 15


### anything humankind has lived in, going back over 16


### 8,000 centuries. Oceans are likely acidifying 17


### faster than they have since the time of the 18



### dinosaurs. 19



### What this does is not a matter of 20


### dispute. Since the Civil War, we've known carbon 21


### dioxide warms the atmosphere, period. The ocean 22

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### absorbing carbon from the atmosphere that turns 1



### it acidic is known, not debatable. It's a law of 2


### science. It can be replicated in a laboratory. 3


### A warming ocean, raising sea levels, is called 4


### the law of thermal expansion. 5


### The largest source of carbon pollution in 6


### the United States is power plants. And, yes, it 7


### is carbon pollution when there's too d arn much of 8



### it. Arsenic is found in nature, too. But I 9



### wouldn ' t recommend taking too much of it. 10


### Power plants are an important place for 11


### EPA to start. The 50 dirtiest American power 12


### plants emit more carbon dioxide than all of 13



### Canada or all of Korea. A nd carbon pollution 14


### doesn't come free. Not on my Rhode Island 15


### shoreline, not for my Rhode Island fisherme n, not 16


### for flooded Rhode Island factories along our 17



### rivers. 18


### Nor for lumbermen in Oregon, whose 19


### forests have died; ski operators in Vermont, 20



### whose sea sons have shortened; oyster farmers in 21


### Washington, whose spat were killed; farmers in 22

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### California, looking out at drought

- parched 1


### fields; or cherry growers in Michigan, who lost 2


### their crop; or for that matter, millions of other 3


### Americans who are paying the price. 4


### What is the price? Through these carbon 5


### pollution effects and many others, the 50 6


### dirtiest power plants are offloading roughly $24 7


### billion in harm onto the public each year. It's 8



### not fair to the rest of us. 9


### What am I supposed to say to a mom 10



### sit ting in a Rhode Island emergency room with her 11


### kid on a nebulizer trying to recover from an 12


### asthma attack that was caused by ozone from an 13



### out

- of

- state power plant? "Sorry"? "Tough luck, 14


### you"? I don ' t think so. 15


### And here's the strong medicine we have to 16


### face: Congress has been incapacitated by 17


### polluting special interests. We are in the midst 18



### of an historic scandal. Citizens united set 19


### loose the polluter money, and it has poisoned our 20


### democracy. History will be a harsh judge of this 21



### moment. But the f act is polluter money has 22

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### Congress tied up in knots. 1


### This is real. And people who don't want 2


### to agree are going to have to get over it. We do 3


### best to get it done now, while there's till time 4


### to prevent the worst damage to nature, while 5



### there's still tim e to prevent the worst 6



### embarrassment to ou r democracy, while there is 7


### still time to prevent the worst injury to 8


### America's leadership in the world. 9


### If we don't get this right, we can't 10


### expect that the laws of nature will make an 11


### exception for us. We can't expect that our 12


### enemies and rivals around the world are going to 13


### give us a pass for having blown it so badly at 14


### this time of consequence. We can't expect that 15


### we'll get a do

- over. 16


### So I applaud EPA for its work to strike 17


### at the heart of carbon pollution, to protect our 18


### natural world from degradation and our democracy 19


### from disgrace. We are counting on you. Thank 20


### you very much. 21


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 22

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### Mr. O'Shea? 1


### MR. O'SHEA: Thanks. I want to begin by 2


### giving thanks for the opportunity to speak today

. 3


### I speak as a college student, a volunteer with 4


### several local environmental organizations, and as 5



### a citizen. 6


### Did you hear Yev Sano, the Philippine 7


### representative to the UN Climate Change 8


### Conference? He spoke through tears over the loss 9



### of life of his c ountrymen in the wake of S uper
10



### t yphoon H a iy a n, which affected 11 million people 11


### and caused $1.5 billion in damage this past year. 12



### His words to the world moved me. He 13


### said, "To anyone who continues to deny the 14


### reality that is climate change, I dare you to get 15


### away from the comfort of your armchair to where 16


### climate change has become a matter of life and 17



### death." 18


### I decided to respond to Yev Sa n o 's call 19


### by volunteering this winter with Interfaith Power 20


### and Light, an organization which engages 21


### congregations of all faiths in responding to 22

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### climate change. 1


### Climate change can seem daunting to local 2


### religious communities, a Goliath. But I've seen 3


### the positive impact ordinary people can make when 4


### they're compelled by their consciences to join 5


### together and take acti on. People in religious 6


### communities have always tried to do unto their 7


### neighbors as they would have done unto them, and 8


### today that means fighting climate change. 9


### But just as concerned citizens are unable 10


### to alleviate the massive inequality and suffering 11


### in the world without the help of government, so 12


### too must we seek our government's help in 13


### fighting the great existential threat we face in 14


### climate change. 15


### Government agencies, with our support, 16


### are up to the task. You have tackled huge 17


### problems before fo r the good of all. It was the 18


### government that, in 1941, mobilized and inspired 19


### a nation to fight the forces of tyranny, from the 20


### highest levels of the state to the families that 21


### recycled tin cans. It was the government that 22

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### has protected our national par ks, and it is the 1


### government that has put a person on the moon. 2


### These are projects that well

- meaning 3


### citizens, even the fantastic congregations of 4


### Interfaith Power and Light, could not have 5


### accomplished alone. And these are projects that 6


### no corporation w ould have dared to lead because 7


### they required our collective action. But in 8


### hindsight, who can argue against their benefit to 9



### everyone? 10


### Today, we face a bigger crisis in scale 11


### than any we've seen before, and one unique in our 12


### history. There is no flag t o plant on the 13


### surface of global warming. There is no single 14


### project to finish, and it will be decades before 15


### we can declare victory. But the Goliath we face 16


### is coming up over the hill to meet us already. 17


### The economic costs of adjusting to higher 18



### temper atures, rebuilding destroyed 19


### infrastructure, and relocating citizens away from 20


### devastated areas will only increase year after 21



### year. Storms even larger than Haiyan , Katrina, 22

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### Sandy, and Rita will continue to threaten friends 1



### and loved ones all over the worl d. 2



### If we do nothing or if we do too little, 3


### there will come a time when we cannot ignore the 4


### problem any longer. But unlike all the other 5


### crises we've faced, by then it will be too late. 6


### So, I call on the EPA, listen to your 7


### citizens, including our fait h communities, and 8



### listen to those who will look back in the future 9


### as we look back now. This project is just one 10


### step among many that we will have to take as a 11


### society to beat climate change. 12


### Please promptly pass a strong rule 13


### limiting carbon pollution for new power plants. 14


### And then proceed to issue rules limiting carbon 15


### pollution from existing power plants. Your 16


### citizens are counting on you. Thank you. 17


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, Mr. O'Shea. 18


### Our next two speakers are Barbara 19



### Weinstein and Michael Gree n. And also, I want to 20


### see if Michelle Passerelli (phonetic) is in the 21


### room? If you are, you left your ID at the desk. 22

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### (Pause.) 1



### MR. HAEUBER: Ms. Weinstein? 2


### MS. WEINSTEIN: Yes. Thank you. Good 3



### afternoon. I'm Barbara Weinstein, Director of 4



### the Comm ission on Social Action of Reformed 5


### Judaism and Associate Director of the Religious 6



### Action Center of Reformed Judaism, which 7



### advocates on behalf of the Union for Reformed 8


### Judaism, whose 900 congregations across North 9



### America include 1.3 million Jews, and t he Central 10


### Conference of American Rabbis, whose membership 11



### includes more than 2,000 reformed rabbis. 12


### Thank you for the opportunity to speak in 13


### support of the proposed carbon pollution 14



### standards for new power plants. These standards 15



### reflect our nation's c ommitment to combating 16


### climate change, which is not just an 17



### environmental challen ge, but one of the great 18



### social

- justice challenges of our time. 19



### Our interest in this issue is rooted in 20


### the Jewish tradition's rich teachings about our 21


### responsibility to the earth, to humanity, and all 22

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### of creation. In Biblical commentary, God says to 1


### Adam, "See to it that you don ' t spoil or destroy 2


### my world. For if you do, there will be no one to 3


### repair it after you." 4



### Our reformed Jewish values call on us to 5



### be stewards of the earth, not just for our own 6


### benefit and the wellbeing of those with whom we 7


### share the planet today, but because of our 8


### responsibility to the generations that succeed 9


### us. These guiding principles inspire our support 10


### of measures to stem the impact of cl imate change, 11


### including the EPA's proposed regulations on 12


### carbon emissions from new power plants. 13


### As you well know, the September 2013 14


### report from the UN International Panel on Climate 15



### Change found that climate scientists are 95 16


### percent confident that cli mate change is due to 17


### human impact, 90 percent certain that the last 18



### 30

- year period is the warmest in 800 years, and 19


### 99 percent sure that the rise in sea levels has 20



### accelerated over the last two centuries. 21


### Climate change is happening, and its 22

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### impact on ou r air, land, and water is 1


### increasingly apparent. And as evidenced by the 2


### recent tragedy of the typhoon in the Philippines 3


### and droughts afflicting Africa and the havoc 4


### wreaked by Hurricane Sandy, among other 5


### incidents, climate change is contributing to mor e 6


### frequent and severe extreme weather events. 7


### As significant an issue as this is for 8


### the environment itself, climate change is also 9


### causing economic, social, and a range of other 10


### challenges that impact residents of the United 11


### States and every nation on ea rth. And as is 12


### often the case, those who were already the most 13


### vulnerable are feeling the impact most. 14


### By this Agency's own estimate, about 1.4 15


### billion people live in extreme poverty worldwide 16


### and will have a particularly difficult time 17


### adapting to our r apidly changing climate. Tens 18


### of millions of people in low

- lying areas will be 19



### forced to leave their homes. And due to the 20


### increased flying range of mosquitoes, malaria and 21


### other infectious diseases are likely to spread to 22

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### areas that have never experienc ed them before. 1


### One international report estimates that 2


### climate change causes an average of 400,000 3


### deaths per year, and the vast majority of which 4


### are in developing countries. 5



### Within the U.S., studies show a wide 6


### racial and economic gap when it comes to air 7


### pollution, with communities of color and those 8


### with less formal schooling and high poverty rates 9



### more at risk of asthma, cardiovascular disease, 10



### and cancer. 11


### The U.S. may be home to only 5 percent of 12


### the world's population, but we produce about 19 13



### per cent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. 14


### And we have a responsibility to people of our own 15


### country and to our global community to address 16


### this climate crisis. Implementing the proposed 17


### limitation on carbon emissions from new power 18


### plants targets a k ey source of pollution and 19


### demonstrates our country's commitment to the 20


### health and wellbeing of our planet and its 21



### inhabitants. 22

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### So we applaud the EPA and President 1


### Obama's leadership in strengthening and enforcing 2



### limits on harmful carbon emissions, and c all on 3


### you today to maintain this strong proposed rule 4


### when it is finalized. Thank you. 5


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 6



### Mr. Green? 7


### MR. GREEN: Hello. My name is Michael 8



### Green. And I'm here on behalf of the Climate 9



### Action Liaison Coalition in Boston, 10



### Massach usetts, where I serve as the Director; and 11



### also on behalf of the American Sustainable 12



### Business Council here in D.C. 13


### I would like to thank the EPA for having 14


### this process and having this as transparent as 15


### possible, where various stakeholders can come and 16



### v oice our concerns and our opinions. And I 17


### applaud you in that regard. 18



### Now, CALC is a coalition of businesses 19


### who are working to take targeted action on 20


### climate change through bold internal 21


### sustainability, and building a platform for small 22

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### businesses' pol i ti cal advocacy on climate policy. 1


### Our coalition is made up of Main Street 2


### businesses from across New England. And I was 3



### asked to come down and share our vision of the 4


### future with you here at the EPA, and especially 5


### how you can help us get there. 6



### As a c oalition of small businesses, we 7



### have decided that the fossil

- fuel

- based economy 8



### is a bad business decision for us, for our 9



### livelihoods, and for our communities. We can no 10


### longer afford to pump money out of our states in 11


### New England while our communities are adversely 12


### affected by our continued use of coal

- fired power 13


### plants. 14



### When the new standards are released, the 15


### EPA has to continue to do their work that they 16


### are mandated to do. You need to stand up for the 17


### environment and the health of our people. On e 18


### thing you need to know is that you're not alone. 19


### You have this room that's been full all day today 20


### with people that have been supporting you. And 21



### there is thousands and millions of us back in our 22

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### local communities that are also standing up for 1



### you. 2



### Bu t we need you to do what's not 3


### necessarily politically feasible, but what's 4


### necessary to do what the science is telling us to 5



### do. Because of that, we need the EPA to act to a 6


### degree of boldness that meets the challenges we 7



### face. Even with the President's call for a 17 8


### percent reduction rate in greenhouse gas 9


### emissions from electric generation, we're going 10


### to create an emissions gap, where what we're 11


### doing isn't going to stop our changing climate. 12


### We're still going to be warming. 13


### So, what we need you to do is start to 14


### take the actions that are going to help us meet 15


### what the science is telling and put this 16


### devastating warming on hold to support the small 17


### business communities across the country. We need 18


### the EPA to find what it takes to bridge that gap 19



### and do what we're going to need to do to stay 20



### below a

-- or stay above a 26 percent reduction 21


### by 2020. 22

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### This can be done in several ways. First, 1


### we're going to need bold regulation on behalf of 2


### the EPA that's then going to give a green light 3



### to renewables and to investors that this is no 4


### longer a smart investment choice for them. In 5


### Massachusetts alone, we've already seen the 6


### decommissioning of all of our coal plants by the 7


### year 2017, as well as the state calling to divest 8


### their money from pension plans which invest into 9



### the fossil

- fuel industry. 10


### The next step that we're going to need to 11


### do is we're going to need to put a price on 12


### carbon. For the plants that are already in 13


### existence, as well as for other large 14



### manufacturers and infrastructures here in the 15



### st ate that are not able to be leaders in weaning 16



### themselves off their fossil

- fuel bitch, we're 17


### going to have to start to charge them for that 18



### and force them to reduce their emissions. 19


### We're not buying the argument that strong 20


### bold regulations are going to h inder the economy. 21


### We believe that it will bring future stability to 22

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### energy markets and provide a roadmap for a secure 1



### future. 2


### Know that when you act, you're not acting 3


### alone. Our member businesses and partners around 4


### the country are awakening from this fossil

- fuel 5


### nightmare, and more and more small and medium 6


### enterprises are valuing their ecological 7


### footprint just as much as their bottom line. 8



### If we cross a two

- degree threshold, we 9


### start to step into uncharted territory, which 10


### would have a devastating effect on the small 11


### business community and the backbone of America. 12


### We cannot afford to wait any longer. We need our 13


### leaders to have the courage and to build for the 14



### vision of a sustainable economic future that we 15


### ask of you and that we know we are willi ng to 16


### support. Thank you very much. 17


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 18


### Our next two speakers are David Hawkins 19



### and Liz Schmitt. 20



### (Pause.) 21



### MR. HAEUBER: Mr. Hawkins? 22

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### MR. HAWKINS: Thank you. Senator 1



### Whitehouse mentioned the 37

- year record of 2


### elevated temperatur es. Well, 37 years ago, I was 3


### working at EPA , sitting at a table much like 4


### yours, listening to representatives of the coal 5


### industry argue that technology did not exist to 6


### meet the standards that EPA was proposing for 7



### coal

- fired power plants. 8


### Well, they w ere wrong then, and they're 9


### wrong now. The truth is we can't protect the 10


### climate unless we control carbon pollution from 11


### power plants. They are the biggest source of 12


### carbon pollution in the United States. They are 13


### the biggest source of carbon pollution in the 14



### world. 15


### EPA has proposed standards that set a 16


### level playing field with natural gas, the chief 17


### competitor, fossil

- fuel competitor for power 18


### resources. That's good policy, period. And 19


### anyone who argues that EPA should coddle the coal 20


### industry by set ting sweetheart standards for coal 21


### plants is acting against the interests of 22

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### electricity customers and against the interests 1


### of all of us who depend on a hospitable climate 2


### to enjoy safe , secure, and fulfilling lives. 3



### Now , EPA's proposal rests on solid 4



### te chnical, economic, and legal grounds. EPA 5



### bases the emissions standard from new coal on the 6


### capability of partial carbon

- capture technology 7


### coupled with geologic sequestration of that 8


### captured carbon, or CCS. 9


### CCS systems have three components, all of 10



### whi ch have been demonstrated in commercial 11



### industrial

- scale application for decades. CO2 12


### capture equipment separates CO2 from industrial 13


### gas streams. Then compressed captured CO2 is 14


### typically transported off site, by truck in 15


### smaller applications and by pip eline at larger 16



### scales. 17



### Large

- scale geologic injection of CO2 has 18


### been practiced for decades in the enhanced oil 19


### recovery operations, and since 1996 in dedicated 20


### geologic storage sites. Details on this 21


### experience can be found at the database 22

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### maintained b y MIT and databases linked from the 1



### MIT site. 2


### Now, this commercial experience proves 3


### that carbon capture is demonstrated technology 4



### for commercial

- scale industrial facilities. And 5


### the systems to transport and inject captured CO2 6



### in amounts relevant to th e power sector also are 7



### demonstrated. 8


### We know that carbon capture works at 9


### power plants because it's in use today at a 10


### number of plants to produce CO2 for the food and 11


### beverage industry. 12


### Now, the amounts captured are only a 13


### fraction of these plants' CO2 emissions, but 14


### that's not due to any technical limitation on 15


### capture. Rather, it's entirely an economic 16


### decision. In the absence of any legal 17


### requirement to capture CO2, power plant operators 18


### practice it only at a scale that's profitable 19


### today. 20


### But larg er
- scale CCS can be applied to 21


### any new coal plants that are built , with only 22

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### modest cost impacts. The analysis accompanying 1


### EPA's proposed standards demonstrates that the 2


### cost of producing electricity from a new coal 3


### plant employing partial CCS systems wo uld fall in 4


### the range of alternative power systems other than 5


### natural gas. And that's the correct comparison 6



### to make. 7


### It's important to note that the impacts 8



### on customers' electric rates from this standard 9


### would be much less than the production cost 10



### incr eases. That's because production cost 11


### increases are only a fraction of each customer's 12


### electric bill and because new coal plants will be 13


### a very small fraction of the generation fleet in 14


### all power markets. 15


### Turning to legal issues, some have 16



### claimed that E PA's proposal runs afoul of the 17


### 2005 Energy Policy Act. That's not correct. 18


### EPA's proposal rests on substantial existing 19


### experience with all aspects of CCS systems that I 20



### summarized earlier. To conclude, this CCS is 21


### adequately demonstrated technology. 22

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### EPA also cited several pending projects 1


### using CCS, three of which have received federal 2


### financial aid, to show that the power industry 3



### has confidence in the technical readiness of CCS 4



### systems. 5


### The 2005 Energy Act does not prevent EPA 6


### from considering such projects in assessing 7


### whether CCS has been adequately demonstrated. 8


### That Act says only that such projects alone shall 9


### not establish that the technology is 10


### demonstrated. But EPA is not relying on those 11


### projects alone. Its treatment of this issue is 12



### enti rely consistent with the Act, and amply 13


### supported by evidence entirely separate from 14


### those projects. 15


### Finally, some have asked why EPA should 16


### set carbon standards for new coal plants since, 17



### with current market conditions, no new coal 18


### pla nts are projected t o be built. 19


### The answer is simple. Market conditions 20


### change. America's electricity system needs to be 21


### designed to meet health and environment standards 22

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### we need today and tomorrow. Waiting for the coal 1


### power market to revive before setting carbon 2



### standar ds for new plants would be irresponsible. 3



### It would be like a school bus driver who waits 4


### until an oncoming train appears and then tries to 5


### race it to the rail crossing. 6


### In conclusion, we urge you to act 7


### promptly to finalize these standards after you 8



### have considered the public comments. Thank you. 9


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 10



### Ms. S chmitt? 11



### MS. SCHMITT: Good afternoon, and thank 12


### you all for the opportunity to speak. My name is 13



### Liz Schmitt, and I work on Creation Care for 14


### Sojourners, which is a Christian or ganization 15


### articulating the Biblical call to social justice. 16


### And I'm here today on behalf of the 2,130 17


### people of faith who added their names to our 18


### public comment on this proposed standard for new
19



### source carbon pollution. All 2,000 of us support 20



### EPA in i ts actions to regulate pollution that 21



### harms both human health and God's creation. 22

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### I know from conversations with 1


### evangelical Christians that EPA has a great deal 2


### of support in its efforts to limit carbon, just 3


### like we limit mercury and other harmful forms of 4


### pollution. We must do this because, as Jesus 5



### tells us, we need to care the least of these, the 6


### poor and vulnerable who bear the greatest burden 7


### from climate change. 8


### I know from my background in economics 9


### that if the energy market continues as it's 10



### li kely to, there will not be many, if any, new 11



### coal

- fired power plants built in the U.S. in the 12


### future, meaning that the really important piece 13



### of this standard is what it means for natural

14



### gas
- fired power plants, both new plants and those 15


### switching from coa l to natural gas. 16



### This is not a war on coal. It is an 17


### urgently needed rule to ensure that natural gas, 18


### which President Obama likes to call our "bridge 19


### fuel," until we really invest in clean energy, is 20


### actually as low carbon as it can be. 21



### The time for in dustry to say they can't 22

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### afford to modernize is long over. The time to 1


### put sensible limits on pollutants is now, for the 2


### sake of creation and for people born and unborn. 3



### I know that I don ' t need to explain to 4


### folks from the EPA the likely impacts of clim ate 5


### change or the fact that the Supreme Court ordered 6


### your Agency to regulate carbon as a pollutant 7


### that harms human health. But I'm simply here as 8


### one of dozens of people of faith who have 9


### testified today in favor of the standard, and 10


### representing the 20 00 people of faith, mostly 11


### evangelical Christians, who signed my 12


### organization's public comment supporting your 13



### actions. 14


### So, I'll just close by reading th at 15


### statement that they signed: 16


### "Climate change continues to harm 17


### vulnerable people in the United Stat es and around 18


### the world. And these new standards will help 19


### keep carbon pollution from fossil fuels out of 20


### the air, while helping d evelop a clean energy 21



### economy. 22

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### " There is simply no reason to allow 1


### unchecked carbon pollution from new power plants, 2



### which s hould be built using the best available 3


### technology so that we lighten our burden on God's 4


### creation. And I applaud you at the EPA for doing 5


### your duty in protecting our health from unchecked 6


### carbon pollution and climate change." 7


### So, thank you again so much for the 8


### opportunity to speak and for considering my 9


### comments. And I'll just close with a quote from 10



### Psalm 24, which tells us that "The earth is the 11



### Lord's and all that is in it, the land and those 12



### who dwell in it." And as a Christian, I thank 13


### you for yo ur work protecting the earth and those 14


### who dwell in it today and future generations as 15


### well. Thank you. 16


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. 17


### So, our next two speakers are Rhett 18


### Engelking and Mary Minette. 19



### (Pause.) 20


### Mr. Engelking? 21



### MR. ENGELKING: Sure. Peace and all 22

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### good. My name is Rhett Engelking. And I left a 1


### job in health care to work for the Franciscan 2


### Action Network and direct a young adult 3


### initiative called the Franciscan Earth Corps. 4


### We're an advocacy group whose 5


### constituents are primarily clergy a nd laypeople 6


### who have patterned their life after St. Francis 7



### and St. Claire of Assisi. 8


### Those in popular culture may know Francis 9


### of Assisi as the namesake of our current Pope 10


### Francis. And according to a recent CNN poll, the 11


### Holy Father holds an 88 percen t approval among 12


### American Catholics and 75 percent rating among 13



### American non

- Catholics. And he's attained that 14


### level of popularity largely by speaking 15


### truthfully about the throwaway culture which 16


### often leads to sacrificing men and women to the 17


### idols of pr ofit and consumption. 18


### In his most recent Papal exhortation, he 19


### wrote, "A globalization of indifference has 20


### developed. One cause of the situation is found 21


### in our relationship with money, since we commonly 22

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### accept its dominion over ourselves and our 1



### societi es. The current financial crisis has made 2


### us overlook the fact that it originated in a 3


### profound human crisis, the denial of the primacy 4


### of the human person. 5



### "We'v e created new idols. The worship of 6


### this ancient golden calf has returned in a new 7



### and ruth less guise in the idolatry of money and 8


### the dictatorship of an impersonal economy lacking 9


### a truly human purpose. The worldwide crisis 10


### affecting the finance and economy lays bare their 11



### imbalances and , above all, their real concern for 12


### human beings, reducin g man to one of his needs 13



### alone: consumption." 14


### Now, it might not be readily apparent 15


### what the connection between idolatry and 16


### impersonal economy has to our discussion of 17



### emission s standards, but if you'll bear with me, 18



### I'd like to elaborate. 19


### Part of my work with the Franciscan 20


### Action Network, I was directly involved in 21


### medical care for over eight years. In the 22

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### business world, all costs that affect people who 1



### don't choose to incur these costs are called 2


### externalities. And through my work as a clinical 3



### r esearcher in emergency medicine, and as a 4


### therapist at a prominent psychiatric hospital, I 5



### witnessed firsthand these so

- called externalities 6


### in the personal lives of the patients that I 7



### served. 8


### The mantra of the externality is, 9



### "Someone else will take car e of this problem." 10


### And this indifference to the impact of 11


### externalities points precisely to the human 12


### crisis that the Pope refers to, the denial of the 13


### primacy of the human person. 14


### The health of children is the externality 15


### that is at stake here with reg ard to carbon 16


### emissions. And it seems that energy profits have 17



### come at the expense of these children. 18


### And I began working at a psychiatric 19


### hospital dealing with children with attention 20


### deficit disorder, developmental disorders, and 21


### diagnoses along the sp ectrum of autism. These 22

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### are children who have been born with profound 1


### biological disadvantages in their learning 2


### capabilities and their ability to behave 3


### appropriately in a variety of social settings. 4



### These disadvantages also translate into 5



### innumerable c osts for families raising these 6


### children, and the instances of diagnoses are on 7



### the rise. 8


### The children I dealt with were primarily 9


### urban black youth, and most came from families 10


### who could only afford Title 19 funded health 11



### care. 12


### It should be no surprise that urban 13


### families are often the most proximal to the 14


### effects of coal power plant emissions. But it 15


### surprised me to know that an increasing body of 16


### scientific evidence has tied early exposure to 17


### environmental toxins to a troubling rise in the 18



### instances o f diagnoses of attention deficit 19


### hyperactivity disorder, autism, and childhood 20


### schizophrenia. 21



### These children have been shown to have 22

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### abnormally high levels of heavy metals such as 1


### lead and mercury in their bloodstreams. These 2


### metals rarely leave , and it is increasingly more 3


### frequent that they enter bodies prior to the 4



### child's birth. 5


### I have had the unfortunate experience of 6


### working first

- hand with a child with juvenile 7


### schizophrenia. For our purposes, I'll call him 8



### Rashad. And Rashad had more lead in hi s 9


### circulatory system than you would find in that of 10



### a middle

- aged coal miner with black lung. 11


### One of my greatest professional 12


### challenges was working with him and trying to 13


### prevent him from stabbing his classmates, who he 14


### believed were conspiring to kill h im. This is an 15


### eight

- year
- old. And even in the mildest of 16


### circumstances, the children will struggle through 17


### life with learning disabilities. On more 18


### troubling cases, the high degree of environmental 19


### pollutants will lead to spontaneous abortion of a 20



### grow ing fetus. 21


### I must emphasize that these are purely 22

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### externalities , and none of these affected 1



### individuals have consented to these costs. You 2


### see in the areas surrounding a coal

- fired plant a 3


### dome of carbon emissions is created, which traps 4



### these toxins and creates an inescapable dome of 5



### toxic air. 6



### It seems to be no coincidence that over 7



### two

- thirds of the population surrounding these 8


### plants are African American families of low 9



### socio

- economic status who have also shown 10


### increasing incidence of the psychiatric diagnosis 11


### that I listed previously. 12


### Recent report on U.S. power plant 13



### emissions has documented 7,000 asthma

- related 14


### emergency room visits, 18,000 chronic bronchitis 15


### cases, and 30,000 premature deaths. I think 16


### that's maybe in the past year. Emergency ro om 17


### visits such as these are directly related to 18



### externalities of carbon emission deaths. 19


### Emergency room visits

-- excuse me. And all this 20


### has come in the name of increased energy 21


### consumption. 22

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### So the concerned citizens that I 1


### represent recognize, as I do , that government 2


### regulatory agencies like the Environmental 3


### Protection Agency are our best hope of curbing 4


### the immediate and long

- term damage of carbon 5



### emissions. 6


### The EPA is our government's moral 7


### conscience on most aspects of the environment, 8



### and that i s why I implore you to remember the 9


### primacy of the human person and consider the 10


### wider impact of the common good of any 11


### deregulation of our current emission s standards. 12


### I would further implore that, when 13


### considering an increase in existing standards, 14



### that you continue to keep in mind the impact that 15


### seemingly harmless emissions have on the struggle 16


### of poor and everyday Americans, who yearn for 17


### upward mobility and peace of mind. Thank you. 18


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 19



### Ms. Minette? 20



### MS. MINETTE: I serve as t he Director for 21


### Environmental Education and Advocacy for the 22

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### Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The ELCA 1


### is one of the largest Christian denominations in 2



### the United States, with about 4 million members 3


### and nearly 10,000 congregations across the 50 4



### st ates and the Caribbean. 5


### Lutherans believe that we are called by 6


### God to love and serve our neighbors, particularly 7


### those who live in poverty, and that we are also 8



### called to be stewards of God's creation. That 9



### sense of service takes a number of forms, but in 10


### one example, we respond to weather

- related 11


### disasters, both in the United States through our 12


### Domestic Disaster Response Network, and globally 13


### through our membership in the Act Alliance, a 14


### global network of relief and development 15


### organizations. 16



### The ELCA is working to help communities 17


### that are still recovering from Hurricanes 18


### Katrina, Rita, and Sandy. Act Alliance 19


### affiliates, with help from ELCA donations, are 20


### working to help communities in the Philippines 21


### recover from Typhoon Haiyan

. 22

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### We know from these ministries that 1


### extreme weather events have severe impacts on 2



### low

- income individuals and communities. We are 3


### told by scientists that these extreme events are 4


### growing and will continue to grow worse, due to a 5


### changing global climate and that the changes in 6


### the global climate are due, in part, to our use 7



### of fossil fuels , including coal , to generate 8


### electricity. 9


### We know that climate change has many 10


### other public health impacts and that those 11


### impacts fall hardest on those who are most 12


### vulnerable, including chi ldren and the elderly, 13


### and particularly hard on vulnerable people who 14


### live in poverty. 15


### The ELCA and our congregations, together 16


### with communities of faith around the country, are 17


### working to reduce our own energy use in 18


### recognition of the growing threat of climate 19


### change. In fact, the ELCA's church

- wide offices 20


### in Chicago are one of only two denominational 21


### headquarters to have received an Energy Star 22

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### rating for reducing energy use. 1



### However, we also know that what each of 2



### us does out of faith and a sense of stewardship 3


### is not enough. To reduce our nation's 4


### significant contribution to global climate 5



### carbon

- dioxide emissions, we must act 6


### collectively to reduce emissions from power 7


### plants and other major sources. For this reason, 8


### we strongly support the propo sed new

- source 9


### performance standards that would limit carbon 10


### emissions from new power plants. 11



### When the earlier version of this rule was 12


### proposed, ELCA Lutheran spoke at several of the 13


### public hearings in support of the rule. And 14



### thousands of

-- and we als o joined with other 15


### people of faith in sending thousands of comments 16


### to the EPA in support of that rule. 17


### We strongly support quick action to adopt 18


### and implement the rule , reducing carbon emissions 19


### from power plants as a top priority for our 20


### country and th e world, if we are going to prevent 21


### the worst impacts of climate change and protect 22

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### communities around the world. 1


### We look forward to your finalizing these 2


### rules in the coming months and thank you for your 3


### coming efforts to ensure a just and sustainable 4



### wo rld for this generation and the next. 5


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. 6


### So our next two speakers, we have Melinda 7


### Pierce and Robert Jagusch. Is that anywhere 8


### close? That's what I always say to people about 9


### my name as well. 10



### Ms. Pierce? 11



### MS. PIERCE: Thank you. Good afternoon. 12


### My name is Melinda Pierce. I'm the Deputy 13


### Director of Federal Policy at the Sierra Club. 14


### I'm a Washingtonian and a mother. And in these 15


### capacities, I'm here to voice my support for 16


### strong standards to reduce carbon pollution from 17


### any future power plants. 18



### In June , President Obama laid out his 19



### C limate A ction P lan in which he directed the EPA 20



### to establish the first

- ever carbon pollution 21


### standards for the power sector. The subsequent 22

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### Presidential Memorandum established a definitive 1



### t imeline for EPA to propose and to finalize a 2


### regulatory framework to ensure that any proposed 3


### power plants built in the future must employ 4


### technologies to reduce the amount of carbon 5


### pollution released into the atmosphere. 6


### This directive represents an imp ortant 7


### step in our country's efforts to tackle climate 8


### disruption, as power plants are the single 9


### largest source of carbon pollution. If we want 10


### to address climate disruption, if we want to move 11


### the carbon dial, we have to ensure that power 12


### plants, both n ew and existing, both coal and gas, 13


### do their part. 14


### Up to now, these sources have been 15



### allowed to release unlimited amounts of carbon 16


### pollution into the air. And so we applaud EPA's 17


### efforts to establish a regulatory regime that 18


### will represent the first

- ev er carbon pollution 19


### standards for these major sources of pollution. 20



### Coal

- fired electricity generation is a 21


### dated technology. And our country shouldn't 22

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### commit ourselves to another generation of dirty, 1


### dangerous power plants. These EPA standards 2



### ensure th at, if a power plant is proposed for 3



### construction, it must meet certain standards to 4


### ensure its carbon pollution is reduced. 5


### This just makes common sense. Carbon 6


### pollution is a top driver of global climate 7


### disruption. It also contributes to smog, which 8


### triggers asthma attacks in adults and children, 9


### and it's been linked to other respiratory 10



### ailments, as well as heart disease. 11



### These standards to reduce carbon 12


### pollution are well supported in the American 13


### public. Just this Tuesday, the Sierra Club 14



### release d a poll that found that seven in ten 15


### Americans support EPA's efforts to set carbon 16


### pollution limits for power plants. In fact, 56 17


### percent of Americans thought those limits were 18


### already in place, although clearly they're not or 19



### we wouldn ' t be here today. And two out of three 20


### voters said that this issue of climate disruption 21


### is a serious problem. 22

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### So, while we have heard broad support 1


### today for standards for targeting coal

- fired 2


### power plants, we also need more stringent 3


### standards for gas plants. Gas plant s are the 4


### plants that are most likely to be built in the 5


### next several years. 6



### EPA should set a standard based on the 7



### most efficient combined

- cycle turbines available 8


### and include separate standards for combustion 9


### turbines that applies to peaking plants with 10


### limits on hours of operation appropriate for 11


### peaking uses. 12


### So while we applaud strong carbon 13


### pollution standards for both coal

- and gas

- filed 14


### power plants, America can do better. Every dime 15


### we invest in the technologies of the past is a 16



### dime we're not s pending to move our country away 17


### from dirty coal and towards a clean energy 18


### future. Instead of working to reduce carbon 19


### pollution power plants, we should instead invest 20


### in clean renewable energy sources like wind and 21



### solar. 22

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### These are the energy futures, the energy 1


### sources that hold the key to achieve the 2


### President's goal of a 17 percent reduction in 3


### U.S. greenhouse gas emissions by 2020. Thank you 4


### for your time and attention, and thank you for 5


### the work that you do. 6


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 7



### Sir? 8



### MR. JA GUSCH: Good afternoon. Thank you 9


### for giving me the opportunity this afternoon to 10


### speak on this proposed rule. My name is Robert 11


### Jagusch. I am the Director of Engineering and 12


### Policy Analysis for the Minnesota Municipal 13



### Utilities Association. 14



### MMUA repre sents 125 nonprofit customer

15


### owned municipal utilities, electric utilities; 32 16


### municipally owned gas utilities; and water 17


### utilities throughout the State of Minnesota. We 18



### were formed in 1931 , with the task of providing 19



### reliable cost

- effectiv e electricity t o our 20



### customers. 21


### The average size of our utility is 2,500 22

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### customers. The one issue that we have is that 1



### most of them are in rural Minnesota, where about 2


### 40 percent of the customers actually meet the 3



### low

- income standard. 4


### Our members appreciate that carbo n 5


### capture and sequestration under the proposed rule 6



### for natural

- gas
- fired stationary combustion 7


### turbines is not considered the best system of 8


### emission reduction. Minnesota presently has a 9


### moratorium on new nuclear and coal plants, so 10


### we're very limited in our options for electric 11


### generation. 12


### Minnesota and our neighbor to the east, 13


### Wisconsin, are unique among the lower 48 states 14


### in that there are no geologic formation of oil 15


### reserves, thus no ability to use carbon capture 16


### and sequestration for enhanced oil recovery. The 17


### proposed rule comments that carbon capture and 18


### sequestration without enhanced oil recovery is 19


### too expensive and does not meet the definition of 20



### BSER. 21


### The last engineering estimate of pipeline 22

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### costs to move any high

- temperature high

- pressur e 1


### liquid carbon out of Minnesota is approximately 2


### $1 million per inch

- mile. The closest large oil 3



### fields to Minnesota is the Bakken Formation in 4



### the western side of North Dakota. The 5



### conservative estimate that I've seen on this cost 6


### to build a pipeline f or a single plant from the 7



### border of North Dakota to the Bakken is about 8


### $1.5 billion, without any permitting costs 9


### included, if such a permit would ever be issued. 10


### In Section 3 of the proposed rule, EPA 11



### has asked for comment on different criteria for 12



### cap acity factors, sales criteria, and generation 13


### output. We support the concept of the three

- year 14


### rolling average for natural gas combustion 15


### turbines with the 40 percent capacity factor. 16


### This year alone, due to the temperatures 17


### in Minnesota this time of yea r
-- we usually call 18



### it "winter"

-- we have been directed to run, by 19



### the Mid

- Continent Independent System Operator, 20


### MISO, our natural gas peaking generation far more 21


### than we have in any period in the last 10 years. 22

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### The three

- year average will ensure that one year 1


### of high operation, such as this one, will not 2



### cause an exce e dance of the rule. 3


### Our members, which are also required by 4



### state law, are on schedule to meet or exceed the 5


### Minnesota goal of providing 25 percent of their 6


### electricity from renewable res ources. In my job, 7


### I can state the electric grid cannot be supported 8


### by renewable energy alone. Most of this 9


### renewable energy comes from wind, which is a very 10



### intermittent resource. 11


### With the increasing construction of this 12


### renewable generation, natural gas combustion 13


### turbines will be eventually needed to respond to 14


### this increased wind output. A 40

- percent 15


### capacity factor for the conventional natural gas 16


### combustion turbines will give our members the 17


### capability of keeping the electric system 18



### reliable as m ore and more renewables are added 19



### onto our systems. 20


### The proposed rule sets emissions 21


### standards for electrical generation use

- n ets, but 22

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### curiously, the rule is silent on regulatory 1


### requirements that account for the quality of the 2


### natural gas provided by the suppliers of the 3


### natural gas pipelines. The utility has no 4


### control or any other option to receive natural 5


### gas from any other source, based on these 6


### pipelines. 7


### With winter natural gas curtailments and 8


### the high residential heating uses, we've seen 9



### lower B TU gas, heat

- rate gas come through the 10


### system. With that type of a lower BTU, of 11



### course, the carbon dioxide level is increased. 12



### And we have no control over that. So we 13


### recommend that maybe EPA take a look at that 14


### portion of the rule. Thank you very muc h. 15


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, sir. 16


### So, I hope you will include that in your 17



### comments. 18


### MR. JAGUSCH: I absolutely will. 19


### MR. HAEUBER: Absolutely, good. 20


### Our next two speakers will be Drake 21



### Hamilton and Darian Ghorbi. 22

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### Ms. Hamilton? 1



### MS . HAMILTON: Good af ternoon. My name 2



### is J. Drake Hamilton, and I serve as the Science 3


### Policy Director for Fresh Energy based in St. 4


### Paul, Minnesota. Fresh Energy works across the 5


### State of Minnesota and in the upper Midwest 6


### region on practical, clean energy and climate 7


### polic y solutions. 8


### In the last few months, we've provided 9


### members of the public in Minnesota with 10


### information about comment opportunities on this 11


### proposed rule, and thousands of Minnesotans have 12


### responded by submitting to you comments 13


### electronically and by mail . Today I submit an 14


### additional 428 comments collected at public 15



### events in the last two months in Minnesota. 16


### I wanted to make you aware of a joint 17


### letter to President Obama addressed on February 18


### 5th, yesterday, from Minnesota public elected 19



### officials who pledged their support for the 20


### administration's commitment to clean up power 21


### plants by limiting carbon pollution. 22

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### Quote: "Under your leadership, we can 1


### help you achieve the key pillars of your plan to 2


### reduce carbon pollution, especially the first

3



### even nat ional limits on carbon pollution from 4


### power plants, increasing the energy efficiency of 5



### our built environment and smarter investments in 6


### our country's renewable energy infrastructure. 7


### "By committing to clean up new power 8


### plants with a stakeholder process similar to that 9



### which was used for other Clean Air Act standards, 10


### you are once again demonstrating your commitment 11



### to commonsense solutions that takes the 12


### challenges of climate change very seriously," 13



### unquote. 14



### Those elected officials included 20 State 15



### Sen ators and Representatives from communities all 16


### across the State of Minnesota, city council 17


### members from our four largest cities

-- 18


### Minneapolis, St. Paul, Rochester, and Duluth

-- 19


### as well as county commissioners and suburban 20


### mayors. Minnesotans in rural ce nters across the 21


### state are deeply interested in climate solutions, 22

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### including cleaning up our coal plants. 1


### Consider just two of the many climate 2



### forums held this fall and winter that were 3


### created from scratch by community members working 4


### together. On Nove mber 9th in Mankato, Minnesota, 5


### over 150 community members aged 10 to 91 spent 6


### the entire day, 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., working 7


### together on climate action, convened by the 8


### School Sisters of Notre Dame, city leaders from 9


### several communities, parents and gran dparents, 10



### and even a local librarian. 11


### On January 18th, 2014, during an intense 12



### snow storm, 650 people gathered at St. Olaf 13


### College at the first

- ever Northfield, Minnesota , 14


### Area Climate Summit. The day

- long event was 15


### sponsored by two colleges, many congreg ations, 16


### the Northfield Rotary Club, and the Northfield 17


### Chamber of Commerce. They were actually knocked 18


### back. They had 850 people registered, and 200 19


### got knocked down by the snowstorm. But 20


### Minnesotans are tough. 21


### I'm inspired by the thousands of 22

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### individu als who are devoting hundreds of hours of 1


### their free time to help shape action to slow 2


### climate change. It's important to Minnesotans 3


### that our country gets this right. 4



### Minnesota is more tied to coal than the 5


### country as a whole, with about 51 percent of ou r 6


### electricity generated from burning coal, every 7


### lump of it imported. In some parts of the state, 8


### utilities get more than 80 percent of their 9


### electricity from burning coal. So we know we 10


### need to transition to clean energy, and we have 11


### established state p olicies that put us on a clean 12


### energy path. 13


### Our renewable energy standard requiring 14


### 25 percent of our electricity to come from 15


### renewable energy by the year 2025 is working 16



### well , with every utility meeting the standard 17


### ahead of schedule. Today, Minnesota is the 18



### number

- four state in per

- capita wind generation. 19


### We get more than 15 percent of our power from the 20


### wind alone and have created about 3,000 jobs 21


### across the state in all components of the wind 22

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### industry. 1


### Minnesota in 2007 passed bipartisan 2


### legislatio n that included economy

- wide science

3


### based goals to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 4


### across the economy from 2005 levels by at least 5


### 30 percent in 2025 and at least 80 percent by the 6


### year 2050. Minnesota is already working on this 7


### challenge and is seeing t he economic, clean air, 8



### water, and health benefits of these market

- based 9


### policies. 10


### Fresh Energy urges the Environmental 11


### Protection Agency to finalize this significant 12


### first step in reducing carbon from power plants 13


### and to move forward this spring to issue draft 14


### standards to limit and lower greenhouse gas 15


### emissions from existing power plants. Thank you. 16


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 17



### Mr. Ghorbi? 18


### MR. GHORBI: Thank you. Good afternoon. 19


### My name is Darian Ghorbi. I'm the Director of 20


### Policy Analysis for ACCCE, the American Coalition 21


### for Clean Coal Electricity. Thank you for the 22

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### opportunity to speak today about EPA's proposed 1



### new
- source performance standards, or NSPS, for 2



### CO2 for new coal

- and natural

- gas
- fired power 3


### plants. 4


### ACCCE is concerned about the impact of 5


### EPA's carbon regulations on the use of coal to 6


### produce affordable and reliable electricity. 7


### Coal plays a crucial role in providing 8


### electricity to consumers in virtually every state 9



### in the nation. 10


### For example, coal provides more than one

11


### quarter of th e electricity in 29 states, with a 12


### collective population of more than 175 million 13


### people. Unfortunately, EPA regulations have 14


### already contributed to the retirement or 15


### conversion of 330 existing coal units in 33 16



### states. 17


### To begin with, we disagree with EPA 's 18


### decision to regulate greenhouse gases under the 19


### Clean Air Act. EPA regulations are an 20


### ineffective and economically harmful way to 21


### address climate change. 22

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### ACCCE recommends that EPA propose an NSPS 1



### based on new , highly efficient coal

- fired power 2


### plants without CCS. Such a standard would allow 3



### new coal

- fired power plants to be built. This 4


### proposed standard serves as a de facto moratorium 5



### on new coal

- fired power plants. Such a 6


### moratorium will discourage fuel diversity in the 7


### electricity industry, which may leave regions 8



### vulnerable to fuel

- price volatility. 9


### CCS is an important greenhouse gas 10


### mitigation technology and may be a primary option 11


### to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions 12


### at many stationary sources. Nevertheless, CCS is 13


### not yet commerci ally available for coal power 14


### plants, and can cost upwards of $1 billion for a 15


### single coal

- powered plant. 16


### DOE and others are continuing to research 17


### advanced CCS technologies to bring down the cost 18


### and improve performance. These advanced 19


### technologies are still in the early stages of 20


### development 21


### On the proposed NSPS, ACCCE offers the 22

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### following comments: First, EPA's determination 1


### that CCS is adequately demonstrated is 2


### inconsistent with the plain meaning of the Clean 3


### Air Act. The term "demonstrate" genera lly means 4


### to prove something by showing examples of it. 5


### Courts have determined that adequately 6


### demonstrated control systems are shown to be 7


### reasonably reliable and not based on mere 8


### speculation or conjecture. 9



### Plain

- meaning language confirms that EPA 10



### cann ot set NSPS based on the presumed 11


### availability of CCS technologies that have never 12



### been demonstrated at full scale. 13


### Second, based on the criteria EPA has put 14


### forth in this proposal, CCS is not the best 15


### system of emission reductions. CCS is not viable 16



### tod ay because of significant technological, 17


### financial, and regulatory barriers to project 18


### development. Additionally, EPA appears to 19



### underestimate the cost of CCS. Individual 20


### estimates of the levelized cost of electricity do 21


### not reflect the wide range of unc ertainty and the 22

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### capital costs of unproven technology. 1



### Third is NSPS , while the effect of 2


### stalling CCS development in the United States , 3



### n ew coal

- fired power plants are necessary to 4


### demonstrate advanced CCS technologies, which are 5


### expected to improve perf ormance and reduce costs. 6


### New IGCC plants must be built to demonstrate CCS 7


### due to the limited number of IGCC's operating in 8


### the United States today. 9


### Additionally, existing plants face a 10



### number of site

- specific limitations for 11


### participating in a CCS demon stration project, 12


### including space on site, proximity to CO2 storage 13


### infrastructure, and the remaining useful life of 14


### the plant. 15


### Simply put, because EPA's NSPS prevents 16


### operators from planning or building new coal 17


### power plants, no additional CCS demonstrat ion 18


### projects can be developed at those facilities. 19



### Fourth, EPA's reliance on demonstration 20


### projects in setting the standard is 21


### inappropriate. All the projects cited by EPA 22

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### have received significant federal subsidies, in 1



### addition to state and local incent ives in many 2


### cases. Most importantly, none of these 3


### demonstration projects are currently operating in 4


### the United States. The remaining projects may 5


### still face challenges, moving forward. 6


### As noted by others, Congress included 7


### specific provision in the En ergy Policy Act to 8


### limit the type of reliance on demonstration 9


### projects found in this proposal. 10


### Fifth and finally, EPA failed to consider 11


### the significant CO2 storage challenges. 12


### Conventional air pollutant control technologies 13



### can use on
- site surface stor age for pollution 14


### control byproducts. A CCS project must have CO2 15


### transportation and a long

- term subsurface storage 16



### available at all times. 17


### EPA assumes that CO2 storage will be 18


### available through EOR operations. EOR, however, 19


### is a regionally constrained CO2 storage option 20


### limited by geology, pipeline infrastructure, and 21


### regulatory uncertainty due to recently published 22

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### guidance documents. 1


### Saline storage faces its own challenges, 2


### including a lack of permitting experience and a 3


### cost of long

- term site monito ring. 4


### I'm happy to answer any questions you may 5


### have at this time. And thank you for your 6



### attention. 7


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 8


### The next two speakers are Ethan Spanner 9


### and Marty Hayden. 10



### (Pause.) 11


### MR. SPANNER: Thank you. My name is 12


### Ethan Spanner. I'm testifying today on behalf of 13



### the National Wildlife Federation, where I work on 14


### international climate change policy. 15


### I would like to take this opportunity to 16



### describe how the new
- source carbon pollution 17


### standards can support another goal within the 18



### Presid ent's Climate Action Plan, specifically the 19


### last section of the plan, entitled Leading 20


### Efforts to Address Climate Change through 21


### International Negotiations. 22

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### Climate change is a global problem with 1


### global solutions, which is why we work together 2



### with other governments to find solutions through 3


### these international negotiations. 4


### The United States has long been regarded 5


### as the villain, Public Enemy Number One, within 6


### international climate change negotiations, 7


### especially the multi

- lateral negotiations that 8



### are held within the United Nations Framework 9


### Convention on Climate Change. 10


### I was fortunate enough to attend the 11


### recent UN climate change negotiations in Warsaw, 12


### Poland, in late November. And I'm happy to 13


### report that scrutiny of U.S. efforts has begun to 14



### wan e. When asked, most conference attendees 15


### pointed specifically to the President's Climate 16


### Action Plan, and even more specifically at 17


### stricter carbon pollution standards for both new 18


### and existing sources. 19


### But this final section of the plan is not 20



### entitled "Improve our International Reputation 21


### with International Negotiations." It 22

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### specifically tasks the administration to lead in 1


### these negotiations. 2


### And I'm here to tell you that it's not 3


### possible to lead within these international 4


### negotiations unless we have ambitious action on 5


### carbon pollution here at home. The new

- source 6


### carbon pollution standards are a good first step 7


### in this process. This is important because we 8


### cannot fix climate change on our own; no country 9


### can. No country is an island. 10


### Strong acti on by the United States will 11


### encourage other major emitters, such as the 12


### European Union and China, to adopt similarly 13


### ambitious rules. And we would get to be the 14



### trendsetter on this. 15


### In terms of the negotiations themselves, 16


### signals right now suggest that the next global 17


### climate change agreement will largely take a 18



### bottom

- up approach, meaning that domestic actions 19



### like the new

- source carbon pollution standards 20



### will be used to fulfill commitments made within 21


### an international system. 22

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### Strong standards are a good first step 1


### towards leading the world in fulfilling scalable 2


### and ambitious commitments. Thank you. 3


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 4


### Mr. Hayden? 5


### MR. HAYDEN: My name is Marty Hayden, and 6


### I'm the Vice President, Policy and Legislation, 7


### for Earthjustice. And I want to thank the EPA 8


### for moving forward with the centerpiece of 9


### President Obama's Climate Action Plan, namely the 10


### carbon pollution standards for new and existing 11


### power plants. 12


### Power plants are the single largest 13


### source of domestic carbon pollution, an d once 14


### built, a new plant can operate for 30, 40, or 15


### even 50 years. So, although cleaning up existing 16


### plants is the most important step we could take 17



### to reduce carbon emissions, standards for new 18


### plants are critical to ensure that we do not 19


### undermine prog ress that needs to be made on 20


### existing sources by allowing a proliferation of 21


### dirty new fuel plants. 22

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### Adopting carbon emissions standards for 1


### power plants is not only necessary to achieve the 2


### President's climate goals, but it is legally 3


### required under the Clean Air Act. The EPA has 4


### already found that carbon pollution endangers 5


### public health and the environment. The Clean Air 6


### Act therefore requires EPA to just set standards 7


### to limit carbon pollution from new and existing 8


### power plants. 9


### Opponents of the pro posed standards 10


### suggest that they will spell the end of coal. 11


### However, EPA has correctly determined that there 12


### is technology available to reduce carbon 13


### emissions from coal plants. In any case, new 14


### coal plants are not being proposed because coal 15



### is not ec onomically competitive with other fuels. 16


### Historically, coal power has been 17


### artificially cheap because the industry has been 18


### allowed to shirk its responsibility to control 19


### deadly air pollution and toxic water and waste 20


### pollution. Now, just as the coal sec tor must 21


### install modern air and water pollution controls, 22

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### it must also rein in carbon pollution that is the 1


### single biggest driver of climate disruption in 2


### this country. 3



### EPA cannot bend the rules to accommodate 4


### dirty coal plants. If utility companies want to 5


### build new coal plants, they need to employ the 6



### state

- of

- the

- art technology to reduce carbon 7



### emissions , or elect to use a cleaner fuel. 8


### Again, in the absence of any performance 9


### standards, market forces are already driving a 10


### wholesale shift away from co al to natural gas. 11


### That shift puts a premium on ensuring that newly 12


### constructed gas

- fired plants are as clean as 13


### possible. And on that score, the proposed 14



### standards fail to meet the Clean Air Act's 15


### requirements. 16



### The Act directs EPA to issue standards 17



### tha t drive innovation. To comply with the Act, 18


### those standards must reflect the best system of 19


### emission reduction that has been adequately 20



### demonstrated. But the best combined

- cycle 21


### natural gas plants emit about 20 percent less CO2 22

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### than the EPA's proposed st andards would allow. 1


### EPA has proposed a standard that nearly 2


### all new gas plants already meet. The Clean Air 3


### Act does not allow EPA to rubberstamp what the 4


### industry is already doing. The Agency must 5


### strengthen the proposed standards for natural gas 6


### plant s. 7


### Because even a strong standard is of 8


### little value if it's full of loopholes, EPA's 9



### standards also need to be enforceable and include 10


### monitoring and reporting requirements to ensure 11


### compliance and transparency. 12


### The nuts and bolts of those requirements 13


### are critical to achieving real

- world carbon 14


### emission reductions. Although we welcome EPA's 15


### proposal to require direct monitor ing of CO2 16



### emissions from solid

- fuel

- fired power plants, the 17


### proposal includes a seven

- year compliance option 18


### for certain plants t hat raises significant 19


### enforceability concerns. 20


### At a minimum, any extended compliance 21


### period needs to include milestones assuring that 22

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### facilities are on tract to meet the long

- term 1



### standards. 2


### The proposed rule would also make alleged 3



### malfunctions at cove red plants an affirmative 4



### defense to a violation of the carbon emissions 5


### standards. Waiving emissions standards in this 6


### way is not allowed under the Clean Air Act, which 7


### requires its standards must apply continuously. 8


### Further, such a broad exemption make s no 9



### sense at all in the context of the standard that 10


### contemplates compliance on an annual basis. 11


### Excess emissions that persist long enough to 12


### cause a power plant to be out of compliance for 13


### an entire year cannot be the result of accidental 14



### malfunctions. The American people can't trust 15


### polluters to police themselves. They count on 16


### the EPA to protect them from facilities that 17


### violate air pollution limits. 18


### Finally, the EPA must complete these and 19


### the companion standards for existing power plants 20



### as soon a s possible. Doing so is necessary to 21


### protect the public health, reduce the effects of 22

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### climate change, and spur innovation in new 1


### technologies. In his State of the Union address 2


### last week, the President called for urgency in 3


### acting to reduce carbon emissi ons, explaining 4



### that , "When our children's children look us in 5


### the eye and ask if we did all we could to leave 6



### them a safer, more stable world, with new sources 7


### of energy, I want us to be able to say, 'Yes, we 8



### did.'" 9



### The more than 3 million comments that 10


### came in to support the carbon standards that the 11


### EPA proposed for new power plants in 2012 12


### strongly show that President Obama and the EPA 13


### are not alone in seeing the urgency of this issue 14


### and the vital role that these standards will play 15


### in reducing carbon emissions. Thank you. 16


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. Thank you both. 17


### Our next speakers will be Todd Larsen and 18


### Derek Meyer. 19



### Mr. Larsen? 20



### MR. LARSEN: Thank you. Thank you for 21


### hosting this public hearing to receive comments 22

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### from Americans on this important issue of 1


### regulating greenhouse gas emissions from new 2


### power plants. My name is Todd Larsen, and I 3


### serve as the Corporate Responsibility Director of 4


### Green America, a national nonprofit organization 5



### with 170,000 individual members and 3,500 6



### business member s nationwide. 7


### Our green business network is the largest 8


### network of certified green businesses in the 9



### United States, and Green America is also a member 10



### of the American Sustainable Business Council, 11


### which represents over 150,000 businesses 12



### nationwide. 13



### On b ehalf of our members, Green America 14


### strongly supports the EPA's new rules under its 15


### authority of the Clean Air Act to address carbon 16


### pollution from new power plants. 17


### The proposed new limits will create a 18


### standard of environmental responsibility and lay 19



### th e groundwork for encouraging innovation and 20



### investment in lower

- carbon technologies, new 21


### energy infrastructure, and increased energy 22

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### efficiency. At the same time, the rules will 1


### create only negligible costs. 2


### The need to regulate carbon from new 3


### power pla nts is clear. We're already 4


### experiencing the impacts of climate change, and 5


### those impacts will only increase. If we build 6


### highly polluting power plants, the increased 7


### carbon pollution will contribute to increased 8


### natural disasters, air pollution, and neg ative 9


### health impacts, as well as severely weaken the 10



### ecosystems. 11


### The two groups that Green America 12


### represents, consumers and small to mid

- sized 13



### businesses, will be hard hit. Consumers will 14



### face increased risks to their health and 15


### property, and rising cos ts of basic goods and 16


### services over time as climate change impacts 17


### important systems such as food, water, and 18



### infrastructure. 19



### Lower

- income Americans, those who can 20



### least afford it, will be the hardest hit. Recent 21


### polling shows that 70 percent of American s want 22

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### the EPA to regulate emissions from power plants. 1


### The vast majority also support a shift to clean 2


### energy sources. Americans across the country and 3


### across political parties understand that we need 4


### to shift to clean energy sources to protect our 5



### live s and our economy. 6



### Small business owners, America's Main 7


### Street businesses, will also be negatively 8


### affected by climate change. From disruptions on 9


### their supply chains to physical damage and 10


### destructions of their operations from 11


### increasingly extreme weat her, small businesses 12


### are at a higher risk from rising greenhouse gas 13



### emissions. 14


### That is why polling conducted by the 15



### American Sustainable Business Council found that 16


### 63 percent of small business owners support EPA 17


### regulation of carbon emissions from powe r plants 18


### and 72 percent support incentives for clean 19



### energy. 20


### EPA regulations of new power plants will 21


### also encourage greater innovations and clean 22

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### energy technologies, which will boost the 1


### economy, job creation, and small businesses 2



### nationwide. 3



### Clean ene rgy and energy efficiency jobs 4


### offer competitive pay and are stable. These 5


### technologies are revitalizing communities 6


### nationwide. They're also producing lower energy 7


### costs already. America needs more innovation to 8


### remain globally competitive, and regulat ing 9


### carbon will help lead to that innovation. These 10


### rules are an important first step in that carbon 11


### regulation. 12



### For all of the above reasons, Green 13


### America and its members support the EPA's carbon 14


### pollution standards for new power plants. Thank 15



### you. 16



### M R. HAEUBER: Thank you. 17


### MR. MEYER: Good afternoon. My name is 18


### Derek Meyer, and I'm here today as a concerned 19



### citizen and as a volunteer with the Sierra Club. 20


### One thing that I saw a very big impact 21


### from was the closure of a coal plant in my 22

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### hometown of Alexandria, Virginia, the Potomac 1



### River Coal Plant, often referred to as the Mirant 2


### Plant from when that was the company. And we saw 3


### significant increases in health and wellbeing 4


### based on the closure of that plant , and this took 5


### over a decade to happen. 6


### My thinking is that, as people have said 7


### before, we can't trust many of the existing plant 8


### owners and operators to police themselves. And 9


### it's incumbent on the EPA to provide that 10



### mechanism. 11


### I also want to respond briefly to some of 12


### the comments by the g entleman earlier from 13


### Minnesota, representing small utilities. One of 14


### his comments was that wind as a source of energy 15


### is unreliable. And there was a presentation that 16


### I attended about a year ago by Dr. Willett 17



### Kempton

-- and I'll spell that for the reco rd

-- 18



### t hat's W

- i

- l

- l

- e
- t

- t, last name K

- e
- m
- p
- t

- o
- n, of 19


### the University of Delaware. 20


### And the main argument of his presentation 21



### was that a distributed network of renewable 22

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### sources can provide for the lion's share of this 1


### nation's and potentially the world' s energy 2


### needs. And that is something that I support as 3


### an end goal, that many of the people that I know 4


### do as well, through the Sierra Club and other 5


### groups, and what I think is a must in order to 6



### achieve this. 7


### So, the reason I bring that up is that, 8



### as we're transitioning, number one, we need 9


### stringent requirements on new coal plants and 10


### companion rules on existing coal plants, because 11


### as people have said, coal is not the most 12


### economically viable choice right now. 13


### We also need stringent rules on natura l 14


### gas plants, because despite many people, 15


### including the President, touting it as a bridge 16


### fuel, it is also a significant contributor to 17



### carbon emissions. And we nee d to be moving away 18



### from that. A nd calling it a bridge fuel, I 19


### believe, will give it too long of a time in place 20


### and putting out those emissions that we can't 21



### afford. 22

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### So, as we transition, and the other point 1


### I wanted to make is that, from that gentleman's 2


### region of Minnesota, right across the state line 3



### in Wisconsin, Dominion Resources had t o close a 4


### nuclear plant

-- granted, an old and not very 5



### efficient one

-- because that couldn ' t compete 6



### from wind. 7


### So, as I'm sure your research has shown, 8


### renewables are making an impact, certainly, 9


### economically. And I believe they can be the 10



### future, and we have to move toward that future 11


### quickly and have restrictions that show it. 12


### Thank you very much. 13


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both, gentlemen. 14


### Our next two speakers will be Daniel 15


### Hubbell and Mark Shiveley (phonetic). 16



### (Pause.) 17



### MR. HAEUBER: Daniel Hubb ell? 18



### MR. HUBBELL: Yes. 19


### MR. HAEUBER: Is Mark Shiveley in the 20



### room? 21



### (Pause.) 22

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### MR. HAEUBER: Mr. Hubbell, you're on your 1



### own. 2


### MR. HUBBELL: All right. Well, I'll try 3



### and soldier on. 4


### MR. HAEUBER: Okay. 5


### MR. HUBBELL: Hello. My name is Daniel 6



### Hubbell , and I work on water issues for the 7



### National Wildlife Federation. 8


### When I was growing up in Massachusetts, 9


### my family used to go camping every year in Maine. 10


### It's sort of an annual tradition we always held 11


### to, regardless of what I thought of it as a young 12


### kid. And every year, we would go up, and 13


### sometimes, during the summer, the mosquitoes 14


### would be out in force. And I always felt like I 15


### was being eaten alive. They seemed to take full 16


### advantage of me at every opportunity, and it made 17



### for a miserable week end. 18


### It's a feeling I think I share a little 19



### bit with the thick

- billed murre, which is a 20


### creature that lives in Northern Canada. Every 21


### year, the murre comes to a certain set of islands 22

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### to nest. And scientists, when they were 1


### examining the murre, discove red that some of them 2


### were feeling the bite from the mosquitoes as 3


### well, as in literally thousands of bites. 4


### They had found some murres had literally 5


### died from blood loss by mosquitoes. They were 6


### nesting at the time, and so they couldn ' t leave 7



### or move. They would literally get eaten to 8



### death. 9


### The problems don't just end there. Food 10


### is harder to find, and they even have to worry 11


### about polar bears sneaking up and eating their 12


### eggs, as the bears have less sea ice to use to 13



### find their own , other sources of food. It's not 14


### a good time to be an arctic sea bird is what I'm 15


### saying

. 16


### Would that they were the only species 17


### suffering this way. But it is sadly far from the 18



### case. Bird species are harder to find, and 19


### longer rainstorms have literally drowned iconic 20



### c reatures , like the peregrine falcons, in their 21



### nests. 22

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### Nor is it confined to the Arctic. All 1


### the way to the other end of the pole, we can 2


### find, just off the coast of Argentina, on the 3


### very, very tip of what we would regard as still 4



### habitable for most crea tures, the Magellanic 5


### penguin is suffering as well. At just 25 days 6


### old during the rainy seasons, penguin chicks are 7


### too young to stay with the right kind of feather 8


### that will allow them to avoid moisture clinging 9


### to their skin. They're also too large to hide 10


### under their parents for warmth. 11


### So when the rains come, if they come hard 12


### and often as they have been for the past few 13


### years, the penguin chicks will have the rain 14


### cling to their feathers, and they will die of 15


### hypothermia. 16


### Nor is this the only prob lem, 17


### unfortunately. If the rain is not going to get 18


### them, then the heat will. Hot days will cause 19


### the penguins to literally die of heat stroke, as 20


### they cannot swim fast enough in the water or for 21


### long periods to cool off. 22

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### From pole to pole, birds are su ffering 1


### from climate change. Apart from the tragedy this 2


### means for the birds, why is it important to the 3


### rest of us? Well, forgive the phrase, but these 4



### are the canaries in the coal mine. At the 5



### harshest extremities of our earth, all of our 6


### vulnerable p opulations are being devastated by a 7


### rapid shift that climate change brings on. 8


### It's not just the extreme weather, the 9


### rising sea levels, or anything else that gives us 10



### cause for concern. It is the subtle shift in 11


### what is the normal activities in everyda y life 12


### that is going to pose a serious challenge to 13


### every creature on this planet. 14



### I welcome the idea of a new rule on new

15


### source pollutions from power plants that the EPA 16


### is proposing. I hope that we can push for the 17


### highest possible standard to protect birds on 18


### every pole and all other creatures in between. 19


### We cannot simply wait for industry to take the 20


### steps we need to ensure that there is a cleaner, 21



### better future for all creatures on this planet. 22

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### We must push for the highest standards now. 1


### Thank yo u. 2


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 3



### (Pause.) 4


### MR. HAEUBER: Okay. Dan Byers? 5


### Mr. Byers, you're solo as well. 6


### MR. BYERS: All right. Thank you for the 7


### opportunity to present comments. My name is Dan 8


### Byers. I'm Senior Policy Director at the U.S. 9



### Chamber of C ommerce Institute for 21st Century 10



### Energy. 11


### My complete written statement, which will 12


### be submitted for the hearing record, highlights 13


### numerous concerns with the proposed new

- source 14


### performance standard for power plants. I'll 15


### focus my remarks primarily on two of those, 16


### technological readiness , and the potential impact 17


### on electricity affordability and reliability. 18


### The Clean Air Act provides very clear 19


### direction to EPA with respect to technological 20


### mandates, requiring that regulatory performance 21



### standards be based on what is achievable by the, 22

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### quote, "best system of emission reduction" that 1


### has been, quote, "adequately demonstrated." 2



### It is here that EPA has embarked on a 3


### fundamental overreach, mandating that new coal

4


### fired power plants employ carbon capture and 5


### sequestration systems as a prerequisite for their 6


### construction. As the Chamber stated in response 7


### to this proposal last fall, EPA's designation of 8


### CCS as the best system for compliance under the 9


### rule amounts to little more than a regulatory 10


### euphemism for what is plainly a ban on the 11



### construction of coal

- fired power plants. 12


### This is because CCS as an integrated 13


### technology has never been demonstrated on a 14


### commercial power plant and is nowhere near ready 15


### for broad deployment. The record in support of 16



### thi s conclusion is extensive. 17


### To cite just a couple examples, prior to 18


### releasing the current proposal, the Office of 19


### Management and Budget gave federal agencies an 20


### opportunity to provide feedback on the draft 21


### NSPS. Numerous comments submitted through the 22

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### pr ocess were highly critical of EPA's proposal 1


### and, in particular, the readiness of CCS. 2


### One agency commented that, quote, "EPA's 3


### assertion of the technical feasibility of carbon 4


### capture relies heavily on literature reviews, 5


### pilot projects, and commercial f acilities yet to 6


### operate." We believe this cannot form the basis 7


### of a finding that CCS on commercial

- scale power 8


### plants is, quote, "adequately demonstrated." 9


### Federal agency commenters also noted 10


### that, "By only looking at a couple of examples, 11



### EPA is unde rstating the overwhelming costs and 12


### risk factors that have forced previous 13



### government

- supported CCS projects to be de

14


### scoped, tabled, or shut down." 15


### The CCS technologies program at MIT 16



### maintains a database of commercialization 17


### progress around the world. Of 55 power projects 18


### tracked, none are operational and only 2 have 19


### entered the construction phase. The remaining 20


### projects are in the planning stages, 24 of them; 21



### on hold or dormant, 9; or have been cancelled, 22

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### 20. 1


### In light of the high failure rate and 2



### ext remely limited progress among similar projects 3


### around the world, EPA's presumption that those 4


### planned and under construction will be 5


### successfully completed and commercialized is 6


### highly questionable. 7



### As it reviews comments and considers 8



### modifications to th e proposed rule, EPA should 9


### acknowledge the widely held consensus that CCS 10


### has not been adequately demonstrated and revise 11


### the rule accordingly to ensure any technology 12



### mandates are achievable on a commercial scale and 13



### at reasonable cost. 14



### Another area of serious concern is EPA's 15



### assertion that the cost, benefits, and CO2 16


### emissions changes associated with this regulation 17


### are negligible. Setting aside the obvious 18


### question of why the Agency would want to design a 19



### rule that has no benefits, EPA's conclusion t hat 20


### no costs are involved rests on the assumption 21



### that coal

- fired power plants will not be built 22

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### even in the absence of a rule. 1


### Energy forecasting is a particularly 2


### perilous exercise, and if this projection proves 3


### to be wrong, which history tells us is ce rtainly 4


### plausible, then the rule's cost would skyrocket 5


### because it would prevent construction of 6



### otherwise economical coal

- powered power. 7


### In addition to the direct electricity 8


### affordability costs of such a situation, over 9


### time the increasing lack of base

- load electricity 10


### diversity will threaten reliability and 11


### unnecessarily limit risk management tools 12


### available to power generators. 13


### As seen during the recent winter cold 14


### snaps, coal plants slated for closure have been 15


### absolutely essential in meeting soaring 16


### electricity demand. Taking a major energy source 17


### off the table with respect to meeting future 18


### energy needs is extremely risky. Before 19


### finalizing the rule, EPA should work with FERC 20


### and other experts to analyze its potential long

21


### term impacts on reliabil ity and affordability. 22

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### Addressing these straightforward concerns 1


### and priorities will go a long way toward ensuring 2



### a better outcome to this rule and those rules 3


### that will follow as part of the Agency's broader 4


### greenhouse gas regulatory agenda. Thank you. 5


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 6



### So we'll have a break for a few minutes 7


### until more speakers sign up. 8



### ( Whereupon, at 2:42 p.m., a recess was 9


### taken, to reconvene at 2:55 p.m.) 10


### MR. HAEUBER: Is there a Mark Shiveley in 11



### the room? 12



### (Pause.) 13



### MR. HAEUBER: Oh, so he already spoke in 14


### the other room. Great. Excellent. Okay. 15


### So I think we'll get started again. 16


### We've got a couple of more folks who have signed 17


### up to speak. Katie Huffling and Luke Michaelson. 18


### So, you guys just come in the door. 19



### Great. So, Ms. H uffling. 20


### MS. HUFFLING: Thank you. Good 21


### afternoon, and thank you for this opportunity to 22

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### comment on this important issue. My name is 1


### Katie Huffling, and I live in Mount Rainier , 2


### Maryland, and I'm here today representing the 3



### Alliance of Nurses for Health y Environments

. 4


### We would like to express our strong 5


### support for the standards to limit carbon 6


### emissions from new power plants. As a nurse

7


### midwife, my goal is to help women and families 8


### have the healthiest pregnancies and the 9


### healthiest babies possible. 10


### Unfortunately, air pollution and rising 11


### global temperatures are increasingly being shown 12


### to have significant impacts on the health of 13


### pregnant women and infants, who are two of our 14


### most vulnerable populations. As temperatures 15


### rise, we are likely to see mo re frequent and 16



### severe heat waves, heavier rainstorms and 17


### flooding, and increased air pollution, all of 18


### which present health challenges for vulnerable 19


### populations. 20


### In the Baltimore and Washington, D.C., 21


### regions, we have some of the most polluted air in 22

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### th e country and some of the highest numbers of 1



### poor
- air

- quality days, which the smog levels are 2


### so high that even healthy adults may have 3


### difficulty breathing when they're outside. 4


### I've seen firsthand how on poor

- air

5


### quality days, they can have a significan t health 6


### impact on pregnant women. Many times, my 7


### asthmatic patients would come into my office 8


### wheezing or report having to use their inhalers 9


### more often on poor

- air

- quality days, especially 10


### during the summer when you're more likely to have 11


### higher levels of air pollution. 12


### Having good control of asthma is an 13


### essential part of a healthy pregnancy, as the 14


### mother's breaths are the baby's only source of 15


### oxygen. We caution pregnant women to stay inside 16



### on poor
- air

- quality days, as exposure to air 17


### pollution has been linked to poor pregnancy 18


### outcomes such as low birth weight and 19


### exacerbation of asthma and lung irritation. 20


### However, most women cannot put their 21


### lives on hold when there's poor

- air

- quality days. 22

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### For many women, they have to go to work. They go 1



### to s chool, to prenatal appointments to see me. 2


### And especially in urban environments, they may 3


### rely on public transportation, where they're 4


### having to take the metro or stand on the corner 5


### of the street, waiting for the bus, breathing in 6


### unacceptably high level s of air pollution. 7


### Air pollution and increased temperatures 8


### have also been associated with pre

- term birth. 9


### In a study of over 60,000 births in California, 10


### increased temperatures were found to be 11


### significantly associated with pre

- term birth, 12


### regardless o f maternal age, education, maternal 13


### ethnic and racial groups, or the sex of the 14



### infant. 15



### Pre

- term birth can have a significant 16


### lifelong impact for these infants. These 17


### children face respiratory, neurological and 18


### digestive problems soon after birth, and th ey can 19


### have developmental and learning issues throughout 20



### their childhood. 21


### These can all cause a significant amount 22

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### of suffering for both children and their 1


### families. For children born prematurely, the 2


### health care costs over the first year of life is 3



### 10 t imes those of an infant born at term. 4


### Besides issues of prematurity and low 5


### birth weight, we're seeing long

- term changes in 6


### the lungs of children whose mothers were exposed 7


### to high levels of air pollution while they were 8


### pregnant. And these changes can l ead to 9


### increased risks of asthma and decreased lung 10


### function as the children age. 11



### Children born to asthmatic mothers who 12


### were exposed to increased levels of air pollution 13


### during their pregnancy have an increased risk of 14


### wheezing and difficult breathing at ozone levels 15



### at or near the current ozone standards. 16



### Besides the burden of treatment this 17


### places on our health care system, we must also 18


### take into account the financial burden placed on 19


### parents of asthmatic children through days lost 20



### of work and school, as well as the emotional toll 21


### that that places on a family when managing a 22

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### chronic disease. 1


### The EPA is mandated to protect the health 2



### of all Americans. I ask that the EPA move to 3


### quickly finalize and implement limits on carbon 4


### emissions from new power pl ants. Clean air is 5


### vital to healthy women and healthy babies. And 6


### isn't that what all of us should be working for? 7


### Thank you. 8


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 9



### Mr. Michaelson? 10


### MR. MICHAELSON: Thank you. Good 11



### afternoon, and thank you for providing this 12



### oppor tunity to comment on carbon pollution 13



### standards . My name is Lu ke Michaelson, and I 14



### live in Cat onsville, Maryland, which is located 15


### near Baltimore City. I'm here representing the 16


### Alliance of Nurses for Healthy Environments. 17


### And we implore the EPA to enac t strong 18


### carbon pollution standards for new and existing 19


### power plants. 20


### Now, as a triage nurse in the emergency 21


### department, I had witnessed many young and old 22

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### family members requiring breathing help. I 1


### recall during one hot summer, we had two 2



### ambulances b ring in children no older than 12. 3



### Their frie nds said that they were running and 4


### then simply stopped playing and collapsed. In 5


### both cases, by the time the paramedics brought 6


### them to the emergency department, they could not 7



### be resuscitated and both had di ed. 8


### Baltimore has some of the most polluted 9



### air, and there's little doubt that carbon kills. 10


### Current pollution adds to the devastating 11


### effects of climate change. Conditions can only 12


### get better if responsible men and women limit the 13



### amount of carbon ente ring our environment. In 14


### fact, reasonable people must conclude that we 15



### limit carbon emissions. 16


### Limiting climate change saves lives and 17


### helps the natio nal economy. Natural disasters 18



### such as Hurricane Katrina and Super

- Typhoon 19


### Haiyan will be more common, and we will be the 20


### people to blame when the public as ks, "What could 21



### we have done?" In short, carbon kills. 22

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### Enact laws now that limit our dependence 1



### on fossil

- fuel technology, especially the archaic 2


### practice of burning coal. Coal is essentially 3



### compress ed wood. Neanderthals burned wood for 4


### their use. I would hope that, after 125,000 5


### years, we could surpass our Neanderthal cousins 6


### and adopt another fuel source besides burning 7


### coal. Well, apparently not. 8


### But anyway, new regulations on existing 9



### and futu re coal power plants will continue to 10


### spur economic growth in renewable energy 11


### technologies such as wind and solar. These 12


### energy sectors will be resilient against boom

13



### and

- bust cycles inherent within the current 14



### fossil

- fuel economy. 15


### Many times, after the coal, oil, or 16


### natural gas becomes too difficult to remove, your 17


### friends, colleagues, daughters, and sons lose 18


### their way of life and their community dies. 19


### Again, carbon kills. 20


### It is time for the EPA to protect the 21


### national security, the American economy, and the 22

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### nation's health. After the EPA quickly finalizes 1


### the limits on carbon emissions from new power 2


### plants, the American people will support more 3


### restrictions on current power plants and other 4


### sources of carbon pollution, such as hydraulic 5


### fracturing. 6


### Eventually, I hope, during my lifetime, 7


### our nation eventually kills carbon. And it can 8


### be, again, here. Thank you. 9


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 10


### Okay. Our next two speakers are Derf 11


### Johnson and Joanne Spalding. 12



### Mr. Johnson? 13



### MR. JOHNSON: Good afternoon , and thank 14


### you for the opportunity to testify today. My 15



### name is Derf Johnson, and I'm from Montana. I'm 16


### here today representing the Montana Environmental 17


### Information Center. For over 40 years, MEIC has 18


### been advocating for the protection and 19



### restoration of Montana's natural environment. We 20


### have over 5,000 members in Montana and throughout 21


### the country who support MEIC, both as members and 22

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### with their engagement. 1


### We are pleased to offer our support for 2



### the first

- ever national standards for carbon 3


### pollutio n. While we don't view the rules as 4


### perfect, we view them as an essential first step 5


### in addressing the climate crisis and a movement 6


### towards are more sustainable energy future. 7


### We can no longer ignore the climate 8



### crisis. The citizens of Montana are beco ming 9


### more and more aware of the dramatic impacts 10


### associated with climate change. Many of these 11


### impacts are now affecting our economy and our way 12


### of life. We are now experiencing a much higher 13


### prevalence of more intense and more dangerous 14



### wildfires. 15



### Whil e many of us accept that these are a 16


### natural regimen and that there is a necessary 17


### part of the ecosystems, the scale and the 18


### frequency and the intensity of these fires has 19


### increased and impacted our emergency funds, our 20


### public safety, and ou r air quality. 21


### It's now a regular summer occurrence for 22

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### me and for my family to experience days when 1


### smoke from wildfires chokes our valleys in a 2


### thick haze. Smoke degrades our air quality and 3


### impacts our ability to enjoy our time outdoors, 4


### which is an essential part o f why we live in 5



### Montana. 6


### Drought years are becoming more frequent. 7



### In an arid state like Montana, water is a vital 8


### part of our economy. Less water impacts our 9


### agricultural industry, our recreation industry, 10


### our water supply, and our communities. Less s now 11


### pack is leading to drier summers and lower summer 12



### flows in our rivers and streams. The decrease in 13


### our snow pack is now a very noticeable occurrence 14


### for many Montanans, including our skiers and our 15



### outdoor recreationists, our farmers and our 16



### ranchers. 17



### Miss oula, Montana, home of the University 18


### of Montana, where I happened to attend law 19


### school, and the setting of Norman M a c l ean's "The 20


### River Runs Through It," is predicted to be snow

21


### free by 2050. A decrease in water levels has 22

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### impacted our fisheries, ou r wildlife, and the 1


### outdoorsmen and outdoorswomen who depend upon 2



### them. 3


### Sixteen years

-- that's the most 4


### conservative science that predicts Glacier 5


### National Park will be glacier

- free. As a place 6


### very near and dear to my heart, and by 2030 7


### there's not goi ng to be any glaciers left in 8



### Glacier National Park. 9


### We'd like to emphasize that, while the 10


### proposed standards are a very first step forward 11


### in setting a baseline, in many regards they are 12


### bringing federal standards up to what is already 13


### occurring in the energy market. We are seeing a 14


### major and unprecedented shift in the United 15


### States away from carbon

- intense fuels. 16


### Montana is not unique. We are part of 17


### this shift. No new coal plants have been 18



### constructed in Montana since 2006, and none are 19


### proposed. One of the coal plants in the banks of 20



### the Yellowstone River is slated for eventual 21


### retirement, while our state's largest utility 22

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### recently declined to purchase additional shares 1


### of our largest coal plant, citing serious 2



### environmental and financial risk. 3



### M eanwhile, Montana has seen extraordinary 4


### growth in the renewable energy sector. Montana 5


### has a renewable energy standard that requires 15 6


### percent of the energy needs of publicly regulated 7


### utilities derive their energy from renewable 8



### sources. This standard has already been met. 9


### Since 2005, Montana's installed wind capacity has 10


### jumped from 2 megawatts to 645 megawatts, and 11


### there are now 18 wind projects in Montana that 12


### deliver power to Montana and the region. 13


### The potential for further energy 14


### development in Montana is astounding. There's 15


### enough wind power potential in Montana to provide 16


### the electricity needs of our state 70 times over, 17


### and to supply the entire United States with 29 18


### percent of its electricity needs. 19


### Montana's wind power potential is also 20



### un ique in that it complements the power needs of 21


### the population centers in the Pacific Northwest, 22

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### and that the wind blows strong in Montana when it 1


### slows in Oregon and Washington, providing a more 2


### consistent and a less variable source of energy. 3



### Furthermore , the standards proposed by 4


### the Environmental Protection Agency are roughly 5


### comparable to what Montana already requires. In 6


### 2007, Montana recognized the necessity for 7


### reducing carbon pollution. 8


### Our legislature passed and our Governor, 9



### Brian Schweitzer, s igned MCA 69

- 8

- 421, which has 10


### required that any power

- generating facility that 11


### seeks approval for acquisition by the Montana 12



### Public Service Commission must demonstrate that 13


### they can capture 50 percent of their carbon 14


### dioxide emissions. This law passed wit h 15


### bipartisan support. 16


### I appreciate the opportunity to offer 17


### testimony this afternoon and again would like to 18


### offer our support for the rules. We are happy 19



### that the administration and the Environmental 20


### Protection Agency are moving forward in 21


### addressing th e issue of climate and recognizing 22

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### the amazing opportunities for prosperity in the 1


### clean energy sector. Thank you. 2


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you, sir. 3


### Ms. Spalding? 4


### MS. SPALDING: Good afternoon. My name 5


### is Joanne Spalding. I'm a senior managing 6



### attorney a t the Sierra Club. I am speaking on 7



### behalf of the Sierra Club and its 1.2 million 8


### members and supporters. 9


### We want to thank EPA for moving forward 10


### with this historic and critical rule. We greatly 11


### appreciate the stringent standard for new coal 12


### plants. We think it is appropriate to preclude 13



### nineteenth

- century technology by means of a 14


### standard that is designed to be technology

15


### forcing in the twenty

- first century. 16


### We also appreciate that the rule covers 17


### natural gas plants as well. We will be 18


### submitting ext ensive written legal and technical 19


### comments on the rule; I will not be covering the 20


### whole waterfront. I will be focusing my comments 21


### primarily on the standard for gas plants, because 22

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### we believe that one of the places that the rule 1


### can really be improved i s enhancing the way that 2


### it treats gas plants so that the standard is 3


### actually meaningful and gets meaningful 4



### reductions. 5



### There's the

-- EPA has proposed a 6


### standard that nearly all new combined

- cycle gas 7


### plants can meet. This is not a technology

8


### forcing standard. It is

-- the best combined

9


### cycle units today can consistently achieve limits 10


### lower than 800 pounds per megawatt hour, whereas 11


### the standard proposes 1,000 pounds per megawatt 12



### hour. 13


### In our comments on the 2012 proposal, we 14



### advocated a standard of 825 to 850 for most 15


### natural gas plants. We realize that smaller 16


### units might need a separate standard, but 1,100 17


### pounds per megawatt hour is too high for those. 18


### We will be submitting significant additional 19


### analysis in our written comments on this 20



### proposa l, in addition to what we submitted last 21



### time around , to demonstrate that a much lower 22

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### standard is achievable for gas plants. 1


### It's the best system of emissions 2


### reduction. A standard that relies only on 3



### combined

- cycle gas plants is not the best system 4



### of emissions reduction. It needs to rely on the 5



### best of the combined

- cycle gas plants. 6


### A second improvement we would like to see 7



### is that the standard is

-- there is a standard, 8



### whether it's the same standard or different 9



### standards, that cover all units, inc luding those 10


### that operate less than

-- at 33 percent capacity 11



### factor. We are concerned that the definition

-- 12


### that the sources covered by excluding those units 13


### that operate less frequently, there's a big chunk 14


### of emissions that the rule does not get at. 15


### Again, that doesn't necessarily need to 16


### be same standard. But there's a significant 17


### amount of carbon pollution coming from plants, 18


### both coal and gas, that operate at less than 33 19


### percent capacity factor. 20


### We believe it's important to cover all 21



### new sources . And that will lay the groundwork 22

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### and establish a structure so that when it comes 1


### time to regulate existing sources, the whole

-- 2



### all of the units are covered under this rule, 3


### whether they're covered by a separate coal and 4


### gas standard, a combined standa rd, or, you know, 5


### a standard that is divided by size of the unit or 6


### by capacity factor. 7


### And we will have some suggestions on that 8



### in our written comments. But we believe that 9


### it's important to cover all sources. 10


### Thank you for the opportunity to comment 11


### on this rule, and we really appreciate EPA moving 12


### forward with this historic regulation. 13


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you very much, both 14


### of you. 15


### So I think we're going to take a break 16



### for a few more minutes while we wait for more 17



### folks who have s igned up. 18



### We re mind everybody, if you want to speak 19


### for five minutes, you can sign up at the 20


### registration desk out in the lobby. So. 21


### (Whereupon, at 3:08 p.m., a brief recess 22

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### was taken, to reconvene at 3:19 p.m.) 1


### MR. HAEUBER: Okay. So, I think we have 2



### a few more folk s who would like to speak. So I 3


### think we're going to start back up again. 4


### The next two speakers are Jerry Stewart 5



### and Alison Fisher. 6



### (Pause.) 7



### MR. HAEUBER: Is there an Alison Fisher 8


### in the room? Okay. 9


### Well, Mr. Stewart, why don't you go 10



### ahead , and w e'll see if Ms. Stewart shows up? 11


### MR. STEWART: Okay. 12


### MR. HAEUBER: Well, I guess I can

-- 13


### yeah, I can do that. 14



### (Pause.) 15



### MR. STEWART: Okay. Thank you for giving 16


### me the opportunity to speak today. My name is 17


### Jerry Stewart, from Aldie, Virginia. I'm here in 18


### my capacity as a teacher in training and a member 19


### of 350 Loudon, a climate action group in Loudon 20


### County, Virginia, whose mission it is to 21


### safeguard the health and happiness of present and 22

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### future generations from the negative impacts of 1


### climate po llution and carbon emissions. 2


### I'm not an expert, but am an informed 3


### citizen and a reader of science. From an early 4


### age, my dream has been to become a teacher. Over 5


### the last few years, as I've come to understand 6


### the climate crisis, I've begun to doubt th at 7


### becoming a teacher is the best thing someone can 8



### do for our children. 9


### With climate change set on track to 10


### increase world poverty, exacerbate geopolitical 11


### conflicts, and unjustly lead to hardship, pain, 12


### and suffering among the world's most vulnerable, 13



### i t became clear to me that I can no longer follow 14


### my dreams as I had envisioned them, but must 15


### instead act to help our species collectively 16


### mitigate the degradation of earth's life systems. 17


### That is why this year I've decided to 18


### leave my master's program an d join hundreds of 19


### other Americans in the largest coast

- to

- coast 20


### march in U.S. history, the Great March for 21


### Climate Action. We will be marching 3,000 miles, 22

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### from L.A. to D.C., to motivate citizens and 1


### elected representatives to act on climate change. 2



### Thi s march is a symbolic walk away from a 3



### fossil

- fuel economy to a more sustainable one. 4


### For the EPA to impose strict regulations on 5


### industry to prevent them from using our 6


### atmosphere as an open sewer is to help usher in a 7



### fossil

- free world. 8


### A few weeks ago , I found myself standing 9



### knee

- deep in the Potomac River with a few friends 10


### and hundreds of other activists to raise money 11


### for the Chesapeake Climate Action Network. 12


### Reverend Yearwood, President of the Hip Hop 13


### Caucus, spoke to us. He said the climate cri sis 14



### is the lunch

- counter moment of our time. Whereas 15


### Martin Luther King, Jr., worked for equality, 16


### today we work for our existence, he said. 17


### We will be chanting, "Fossil

- free at 18



### last! Fossil

- free at last! Thank God Almighty, 19



### we're fossil

- free at last!" 20


### You have the grass

- roots support. Follow 21


### the ark of justice. We're pushing for this new 22

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### fossil

- free world. Thank you for allowing me to 1


### speak today. 2


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 3



### Ms. Fisher? 4



### MS. FISHER: Can you hear me okay? Oh, 5



### great. 6



### Good afternoon. My name is Alison 7



### Fisher. I'm the Outreach Director for Public 8


### Citizens Energy Program. Public Citizens, if 9


### you're not familiar, is a national consumer 10


### advocacy organization. We have over 300,000 11


### members and supporters nationwide. And on behalf 12



### of ou r members and myself, I just want to thank 13


### you for the opportunity to comment today on the 14


### Agency's proposed carbon pollution standards for 15


### new power plants. 16


### Public Citizens strongly supports EPA's 17


### authority to regulate carbon pollution from new 18



### and exist ing power plants. And we'll be 19


### submitting our full technical comments on the 20


### proposed rule in writing. So today, in the brief 21


### time that we have, this five minutes, I'm going 22

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### to share input provided directly from our 1


### membership. 2


### Two weeks ago, we asked o ur members to 3


### sign a petition demonstrating their support for 4


### EPA authority to limit harmful pollution from 5


### power plants. And in addition to endorsing your 6


### authority, many of our members provided 7


### additional comments on the process. And I want 8



### to share so me of them with you now. And of 9


### course, I'll submit all of them to you for your 10



### records. 11



### As I read over the comments, there were 12


### several themes that immediately began to emerge. 13


### Several of our members pointed out that industry 14


### has always pushed back aga inst regula tion under 15



### the Clean Air Act, o ften, as the fossil

- fuel 16


### industry is doing now, predicting the economic 17


### devastation is going to result from regulations 18


### that are intended and designed to protect the 19


### American people and the air that we breathe. 20



### So , for example, Diane Radovish, one of 21


### our members from Florida, wrote, quote, "Industry 22

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### will always balk when they're asked to upgrade 1


### facilities. Remember the uproar over switching 2


### to unleaded gas. Think of all the good done by 3



### that one change , and move forward with 4


### limitations on power plants," end quote. 5


### And I would add to this point. In the 6


### '70s, lobbyists warned that using the Clean Air 7


### Act to phase in catalytic converters for new cars 8


### and trucks would cause, quote, "entire industries 9


### to collapse." Instead of that happening, the 10


### requirement ushered a new global market for 11


### catalytic converters, with American manufacturers 12


### at the center of that global market. 13


### Many of our members expressed their 14


### desire and impatience for the United States to 15



### lead, or at least catch up, with the global clean 16


### energy revolution. Sheila Collins, one of our 17


### members from Texas, urges, "Please reduce the 18


### pollution in our atmosphere. America should be a 19


### leader in the world in moving to clean energy." 20


### Too many of our member s told of the 21


### impact dirty air is having on their health and 22

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### the health of their loved ones. Peggy Malnati of 1


### Michigan, another one of our members, quote, "I 2


### have family members with bad asthma and 3


### allergies. So limiting particulate matter is 4


### really impo rtant to ensure they breathe better 5


### and rely less on medications." 6


### And in fact, we know that existing clean 7


### air protections have added up to trillions of 8



### dollars in health benefits to our nation. 9


### Cleaner air keeps people from needing expensive 10



### treatments and costly hospital stays, while at 11


### the same time keeping our children in their 12


### schools and our workers on the job, increasing 13


### both productivity and economic potential. And we 14


### can do even better with limiting carbon 15


### pollution. 16



### Another member, David Arch er, of 17


### California, reminds us that we're already 18


### experiencing the consequences of our dirty energy 19


### choices. He writes, quote, "I live in 20


### California, and we're experiencing a severe 21


### drought related to climate change. I want carbon 22

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### emissions of all types s trictly controlled and 1


### completely eliminated, wher e possible." I just 2



### heard that it looks like 17 rural communities in 3


### California are going to be without water for the 4


### next 60 to 100 days. 5


### Many of our members rightly noted that 6


### corporate interest has for too long taken 7


### precedent over public interests. One of our 8


### members from Georgia, Joyce Skolte, comments, 9


### "The health of people is more important than the 10


### health of the corporate bottom line. It is your 11


### job to protect the welfare of our nation's 12



### citizens , not the fossil

- fuel industry's profit 13


### margin." 14



### And Mark McKenn o n , of New York , writes, 15


### "I support the limits that will keep coal

- fired 16


### and dirty power plants from polluting our air, 17


### land, and water. I would take any guess that the 18



### so
- called dire harm t hat EPA regulations would do 19



### to our economy

-- this is the rhetoric of the 20



### fossil

- fuel industry

-- is dwarfed by the 21


### medical, social, and environmental cost imposed 22

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### every year by these industries and facilities, on 1


### every human, animal, and landscape year a fter 2



### year. 3


### "It's time they became responsible 4


### corporate citizens. I don't throw my trash on 5


### the sidewalk. They should not insist on 6


### disposing of it in the atmosphere." 7


### Many appealed to a sense of urgency and 8



### an immediate need for climate action. Micha el 9


### Wenger of Oregon, another one of our members, I 10


### think put it well when he said, "The government 11


### needs to act to protect the public interest and 12


### the health and safety of our citizens, and the 13


### sustainability of our planet. 14



### "This is a critical issue that must be 15



### addressed , and it is the responsibility of the 16


### EPA to establish a policy that guides us towards 17



### a viable future. The fossil

- fuel industry 18


### appears willing to stampede humanity over the 19


### brink in pursuit of profits. Our children 20



### deserve a better fat e." 21


### And while many talked of a hopeful future 22

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### if we take action now, or a bleak one if we 1



### don't, more than one noted that coal is the 2


### resource of our past and needs to replaced by a 3



### clean, safe, and sustainable future. 4


### Thank you, and I hope that you'll t ake 5



### into consideration the comments of our members. 6


### And as I mentioned, we'll be submitting our 7


### technical comments on the rule in writing. Thank 8



### you. 9


### MR. HAEUBER: Great. Thank you very 10



### much, both. 11



### Our next two spe akers, Nadia Luhr , and 12



### Anna Jane join her

. 13



### (Pause.) 14


### MS. LUHR: Good afternoon, and thank you 15


### for the opportunity to speak today. My name is 16


### Nadia Luhr, and I am a policy analyst with the 17



### North Carolina Conservation Network. I'm here on 18


### behalf of my organization. It is a nonprofit 19



### with a network of more than 90 environmental 20


### organizations throughout the State of North 21



### Carolina. 22

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### Our affiliate groups work on issues 1


### ranging the full spectrum of the environmental 2


### community. But while their interests vary, they 3


### all advocate for protection of the environment 4


### and protection of the public health. 5



### And so, the North Carolina Conservation 6


### Network commends the EPA for moving forward and 7


### proposing regulations setting carbon emissions 8



### standards for new power plants. And we urge the 9



### EPA to finalize th ese regulations as soon as 10


### possible. 11


### Power plants are responsible for more 12



### than one

- third of all greenhouse gas pollution in 13


### the United States and are the largest source of 14


### carbon pollution in the country. The science is 15


### clear that climate change is driv en by carbon 16


### pollution from human activities. And these 17


### emissions standards for power plants, the most 18


### significant carbon polluters, are long overdue. 19


### As we face climate change, we face 20


### substantial public health challenges due to heat 21


### waves, drought, flo oding, ground

- level pollution, 22

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### and an increase in extreme weather events, among 1


### many other impacts. 2


### The economic costs of impacts to health, 3


### property, infrastructure, and agriculture will 4


### grow exponentially as we move into the future. 5


### Limiting carbon pol lution should be our priority, 6


### as it is vital for protecting the public health, 7


### the economy, and our future. 8


### Although we advocate for stronger 9


### standards than those that are proposed, these 10


### proposed regulations will help to ensure that new 11



### fossil

- fuel

- fire d power plants, which are 12


### typically intended to operate for more than 40 13


### years, will use proven technology to limit carbon 14


### pollution. 15


### We thank the EPA for addressing carbon 16


### and further urge the EPA to move forward as 17



### mandated under the Clean Air Act, and without 18


### further delay or weakening of these proposed 19


### regulations. This is a vital step in moving the 20


### country toward a low

- carbon future, and we must 21


### do so to protect our health, our safety, our 22

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### environment , and our economy. 1


### Thank you for your time and op portunity 2


### to speak before you today. 3


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 4


### MS. JANE: Hi. My name is Anna Jane, and 5



### I live in Black Mountain, North Carolina. So 6


### I've come all the way from w estern North 7


### Carolina, and I really appreciate the opportunity 8


### to speak here today. 9



### I've lived in w estern North Carolina most 10


### of my life, and these days I work for the Western 11


### North Carolina Alliance, which is our region's 12


### older grass roots organization. We are 32 this 13


### year. And our mission is to work with our 14


### members and suppo rters throughout w estern North 15


### Carolina to protect our mountains, forests, and 16


### rivers so that people and the environment can 17



### thrive. 18


### I often refer to the Blue Ridge Mountains 19


### as our old wise mountains. Many scientists 20


### believe they are among the oldest in the world, 21


### far older than the Himalayas. They are also an 22

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### ecological gem and sustain some of the greatest 1


### biodiversity in North Carolina

-- I'm sorry, 2



### North America. 3


### I would also argue it is one of the most 4


### beautiful places in the world. Our mountains, 5



### rivers, and forests, and the recreational 6


### opportunities they provide, are also the economic 7


### drivers of our region. People live, work, stay, 8


### move, vacation, study, and play in w estern North 9



### Carolina because of our mountains. 10



### And our mountains and the com munities 11


### they hold are being impacted by climate change. 12


### This past summer alone, our normal bright summer 13


### days gave away to 40 days and 40 nights of 14



### endless rain. 15


### Millions and millions of dollars or crops 16


### were lost in the deluge, a season's worth of 17



### toma toes and peaches and watermelons, leaving our 18


### farmers wondering how they were going to feed 19


### their families and pay their bills. My neighbors 20


### and friends were some of those farmers. They 21


### lost half of their crop. 22

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### Just five years ago, after

-- this came 1


### ju st five years ago after one of the worst 2


### droughts in w estern North Carolina history, where 3



### our French Broad River saw its lowest

- ever 4



### recorded level. These extreme weather events are 5


### predicted to increase and worsen. 6


### What's more, experts project the clim ate 7


### change will have consequences ranging from 8


### negative to disastrous for hundreds of native 9


### species, the species that make our region an 10


### ecological gem. 11


### For example, unmitigated climate change 12



### will lead to the loss of between 43 and 97 13


### percent of Souther n Appalachian brook trout 14


### populations, an outcome that would have a 15


### disastrous impact on our ecosystem and our 16



### economy. 17


### What's more, reports indicate that 18



### Asheville, the economic and tourism hub of our 19


### region, can expect 20 to 30 more 90

- degree days 20


### by th e year 2050 from the warming that has 21


### already been set in motion. By doing nothing , 22

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### climate change would produce temperature change 1


### and weather similar to Atlanta, Georgia, by the 2


### year 2100. 3


### The warming of the local climate will 4



### make our fall color much more like the 5


### surrounding lowlands and less like the fiery rich 6


### autumn we're famous for and that people travel 7


### from all over the country and the world to 8



### witness. 9



### The Western North Carolina Alliance can 10


### no longer honor our mission to prote ct the 11



### mountains and people of w estern North Carolina if 12


### we don't do everything within our power to combat 13


### and mitigate catastrophic climate change. 14


### And we're just one. There are many, many 15


### equally beautiful and unique places all around 16



### this nation who are facing differ ent, but equally 17


### unacceptable, impacts of climate change. 18



### And so on behalf of our members and 19


### supporters, and our colleagues and allies all 20


### over the world, I urge you to pass strong carbon 21


### pollution protections for new power plants and to 22

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### do whatever you are capable of doing to fight 1


### climate change, so that we can all live into a 2


### brighter, cleaner, safer, and more sustainable 3


### future. Thank you. 4


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. 5


### Okay. So we got a few more folks. 6



### Great. 7


### Tara Losoff and Mary Anne Hitt. 8



### Ms. Losoff? 9



### MS. LOSOFF: Well, hi. 10



### MR. HAEUBER: Hi. 11


### MS. LOSOFF: My name is Tara Losoff. I'm 12


### the National Outreach Manager with the National 13



### Wildlife Federation, the nation's oldest and 14


### largest conservation, education, and advocacy 15


### organization, with o ver 4 million members and 16



### supporters , and 48 affiliates chapters around the 17



### country. 18


### I'm also on the board of the D.C. Chapter 19


### of Net Impact, which is an international 20


### organization that strives to inspire and educate 21


### and empower students and professionals to use the 22

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### power of business to make the world a more 1


### socially and environmentally sustainable place. 2


### And I'm testifying on my own behalf. But 3


### I just wanted to demonstrate that while I'm also 4


### certainly an environmentalist and an idealist, 5


### I'm also a pra gmatist and a business school 6


### graduate, and I understand the complexity of the 7


### problem we're facing. There's no easy answer. 8


### But I appreciate you trying. 9


### I believe that if we get this right, it 10


### will spur innovation and benefit our economy, our 11



### communiti es, and national security. So I've 12


### spent the last 13 years of my career working and 13


### volunteering with communities around the country, 14


### working with people from fishermen, small 15



### business owners, scuba divers, moms, activists 16


### like myself, basically trying to advance 17


### pragmatic policy solutions like this one that I 18



### believe will make our world a better, safer, more 19


### just, more beautiful, peaceful place. 20


### And I do that really just because I 21



### believe

-- you know, I live here. This is my 22

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### planet. You know, so there' s no other 1


### motivation. I just can't help but notice that 2


### we're not living in an environment right now that 3


### is completely healthy or just or peaceful or 4



### safe. 5


### And so for me, and for my friends and my 6


### family, I just wanted to come and speak out and 7



### encoura ge you to do all you can to help. And 8


### obviously, fossil

- fueled power plants account for 9


### 40 percent of carbon pollution. We haven't been 10


### regulating that carbon pollution. While we've 11


### been doing a good job with other pollution from 12


### power plants, we need t o reduce carbon pollution 13


### from power plants. It's as simple as that. 14


### There's a saying that if we don't change 15


### the direction we're headed, we'll end up where 16


### we're going. And unfortunately, in the case of 17


### carbon pollution and climate change, we've 18



### alread y been on a path of unchecked carbon for so 19


### long, and we're already finding ourselves here in 20


### a place where there are so many devastating and 21


### frightening consequences. 22

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### You know, glaciers are shrinking. Sea 1


### levels are rising. Heat waves and drought are 2



### b ecoming longer and more intense. Storms are 3


### becoming more frequent and severe. Neighborhoods 4


### are flooding and eroding. Water resources are 5


### becoming less reliable. Plant and animal species 6


### are changing their ranges. Species are becoming 7



### extinct and at risk. 8


### Our families are experiencing respiratory 9


### disease and health impacts. And hundreds of 10



### lives and hundreds of billions of dollars have 11



### been lost. And that's not the direction I want 12


### to see us going. 13



### So the time to act is now. We need 14



### limits on car bon pollution from power plants. We 15


### need energy development that reduces dependence 16


### on fossil fuels. And we need to encourage and 17


### support innovation to modernize and improve power 18


### plants and make them cleaner, safer, and more 19



### efficient. And I commend th e President and the 20


### administration and everybody who's worked 21


### tirelessly to move us into this new, more 22

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### sustainable, more peaceful direction. Thank you. 1


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 2


### MS. HITT: My name is Mary Anne Hitt. 3


### I'm with the Sierra Club. I thought we were the 4


### largest and the oldest, so we'll sort that out. 5


### MS. LOSOFF: Oh, okay. 6


### (Laughter.) 7


### MS. HITT: I'm the Director of the Beyond 8


### Coal Campaign at the Sierra Club, and I live in 9


### West Virginia with my family. And I'm here today 10


### both in my profes sional capacity and as a mother 11


### and an American who's very concerned about 12


### climate change, and very optimistic about the 13


### opportunity to power our country with clean 14


### energy that does not contribute to climate 15


### disruption. 16


### The Sierra Club supports the EPA's 17


### proposed carbon standard for new power plants. 18


### With millions of Americans already experiencing 19


### and paying the price of record droughts, super

20


### storms and wildfires that are being exacerbated 21


### by climate disruption, we see it as just common 22

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### sense that future power plants built in the U.S. 1


### must manage their carbon emissions. 2


### As I see it, when we set these pollution 3


### standards, we are agreeing as a nation that this 4


### pollution is a problem that we can do better and 5


### this is a problem that we're going to solve, 6



### rat her than digging in our heels and allowing our 7


### neighbors to continue to pay the cost. 8


### And as you've heard today from a lot of 9


### speakers, our neighbors are paying the costs now 10


### of climate disruption. Whether it's the farmers 11



### in North Carolina, whether it's the mayor of a 12


### Texas town who's counting the months until his 13



### town runs out of water, whether it's a homeowner 14


### who has lost everything to a wildfire or a storm 15


### made worst by climate change, our neighbors are 16


### paying these costs on their doorsteps today. 17



### A nd we should see these carbon standards 18


### as an opportunity to apply American ingenuity and 19



### know

- how, not only to solve this problem, but to 20


### unleash a new generation of innovation and 21



### investment. 22

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### I live in West Virginia. So I know that 1


### there is strong oppo sition to these standards 2


### from the coal industry. But as the Director of 3


### the Beyond Coal Campaign, I also know that there 4


### are millions of people around this nation who 5


### have already made the decision that new polluting 6


### conventional coal plants are not the energy 7


### future that they want for their community or for 8


### this planet. 9



### State after state, town after town, these 10


### community leaders have already prevented the 11



### construction of 182 new coal

- fired power plants 12


### all around the country over the past 10 years. 13



### The y are the reason that no new coal plants are 14


### on the drawing board in the U.S. today. 15


### New power plants in the U.S. must deal 16


### with their carbon pollution, and that's a 17


### commonsense position that millions of Americans 18


### support. Just this week, the Sierra Club 19


### released a new poll that found seven in ten 20


### Americans support EPA's efforts to set carbon 21


### pollution limits for power plants. And in fact, 22

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### 56 percent of Americans think we already have 1


### those limits in place, although clearly, they are 2



### not or we all wouldn ' t be here today. And two in 3


### three U.S. voters say the issue of climate 4


### disruption is a serious problem. 5



### So, on behalf of the Sierra's Club's 2.1 6


### million members and supporters, I want to 7


### register our support for the carbon standards for 8


### new coal plants, and also note that we are 9


### requesting you strengthen the standards for new 10


### gas plants, which we feel are too lenient. 11


### I thank you for all your hard work and 12


### commitment to tackling carbon pollution and 13


### climate disruption. 14


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. 15



### So , I'd like to call up Lane Boldman and 16


### Adam Sundberg. 17



### Ms. Boldman? 18


### MS. BOLDMAN: Hi. My name is Lane 19


### Boldman, and I represent the Kentucky 20



### Environmental Foundation, which is an 21


### organization dedicated to the raising awareness 22

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### of health, environmental , an d economic impacts in 1


### Kentucky related to coal pollution, among our 2


### many campaigns. 3


### This year's State of the Union address, 4


### President Obama definitively declared that 5


### climate change is real, and because of this, we 6


### urge the EPA to move forward with strong carbon 7


### regulations for new power plants. 8



### The American Public Health Association 9



### and the World Health Association have identified 10


### climate change as one of the biggest threats to 11


### public health. Kentuckians face a wide range of 12



### risks associated with climat e change, including 13


### more extreme weather events, drought, the spread 14



### of life

- threatening diseases, including Lyme 15



### disease and West Nile virus. 16


### While these threats from climate change 17


### are more than enough incentive to support the 18


### strongest carbon regulatio ns possible, and while 19


### recent polling data shows that the public is 20


### accepting that climate change is real and caused 21


### by humans, even with those overwhelming 22

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### incentives, there are states such as ours that 1


### have already suffered significant damage from 2



### carbon pollution for decades. 3


### Health and science experts say that 4


### pollution from fossil fuels is dangerous , 5


### particularly for children because it triggers 6


### asthma attacks and can permanently reduce lung 7


### function. Kentucky has some of the highest rates 8



### of asthma in the nation. According to the CDC in 9



### 2008, an estimated over 300,000 adults in 10


### Kentucky had asthma. 11


### In addition, air pollution can affect 12



### cardiovascular diseases. Kentuckians have a 13


### significantly higher than average rate of 14


### diseases affecting the hear t and circulatory 15


### systems. According to Kentucky's Cabinet for 16


### Health and Family Services, cardiovascular 17


### disease accounted for 30 percent of all deaths in 18


### Kentucky in 2009 and ranked 8th out of 50 states 19



### for death rates due to cardiovascular disease. 20



### Th e EPA's proposed clean air standards 21


### for carbon pollution will protect our citizens by 22

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### reducing the smog that triggers asthma attacks 1



### and other health threats. But in order to make 2


### this happen, the EPA must enact strong federal 3


### regulations, as our state r egulators and state 4


### enforcement efforts are failing us. 5


### Our history has been tied to coal for 6


### more than a century. We're a coal

- rich state. 7


### We're significant suppliers of coal power to 8


### power plants throughout the nation, and over 90 9


### percent of our energ y comes from the burning of 10



### coal. Yet coal

- related jobs are only 1 percent 11


### of statewide employment. And we are far behind 12


### many other states when it comes to diversifying 13


### our energy portfolio and efforts to reduce carbon 14


### pollution. 15



### We have no renewable e nergy portfolio 16


### standard, nor energy efficiency resource 17


### standards. And Kentucky ranks third among states 18


### in per

- customer electricity use, while having 19


### some of the lowest per

- capita income rates in the 20


### nation. We're a poor state. 21


### Such a dependency on co al makes Kentucky 22

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### exceptionally vulnerable to even small swings in 1


### the industry. Coal is a culture in Kentucky that 2


### has existed for generations. This legacy has 3


### ultimately created an environment where state 4


### regulators are either unable or unwilling to 5



### st rongly enforce local standards that protect 6


### human health from carbon pollution. 7


### The reality is, with the strong 8



### investment in coal

-- has had a significant 9


### impact on the health of Kentuckians. We authored 10


### a health impact assessment of coal and clean 11



### ener gy options in our state, which outlined the 12


### data showing the relationships between the 13


### extraction, processing, transportation, burning, 14


### and disposal of coal combustion wastes and 15


### impacts on health, plus health benefits of 16


### cleaner energy sources. And I'll be sending that 17


### by email. 18


### A study conducted by the Mountain 19


### Association for Community Economic Development 20


### found that enacting mandatory investments in 21


### renewable energy and energy efficiency would 22

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### create over 28,000 jobs over the course of a 10

- 1


### year imple mentation period. 2


### We have been addressing our constituents, 3


### who wish to support the growing interest for 4


### clean energy initiatives. However, due to the 5


### impact of the coal industry as a single source of 6


### energy generation, it creates a monopolistic 7


### landscap e without room for strong 8



### d iversification. 9


### But coal in Kentucky is on the decline, 10


### and the trend is clear. Our state's Energy and 11


### Environment Cabinet now recognize that change is 12


### inevitable. Yet even with that, they are 13


### proposing solutions that will slo w down the 14


### timeline for moving Kentucky to a cleaner energy 15



### future. 16


### Our governor has begun asking for more 17


### flexibility and less accountability. And 18


### Representative Ed Whitfield from Kentucky, 19


### Chairman of the House Subcommittee on Energy and 20



### Power, propose d legislation that would prevent 21


### EPA from taking action to restrict greenhouse gas 22

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### emissions from new coal plants. And Senator 1



### McConnell from our state is one of the most 2


### powerful men in Washington. We are up against a 3



### stacked deck. 4


### The political pressu re to retain and 5


### promote coal in Kentucky is significant. But the 6


### trend is clear that delaying the inevitable will 7


### only result in more impacts to the health of 8


### Kentuckians, rather than protect the interests of 9


### the carbon industry. So we advocate for very 10


### strong standards. Thank you. 11


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 12


### Mr. Sundberg? 13


### MR. SUNDBERG: My name is Adam Sundberg. 14


### I'm a graduate student in environmental history 15


### studying climate change at the University of 16



### Kansas. 17


### Like many here today, I'm here to voice 18



### my support for the proposed EPA standards for new 19


### power plants. I felt compelled to speak not only 20


### because of my background in the history and 21


### science of climate change, but because the 22

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### implications this particular plan would have on 1


### my home state of Kan sas. 2


### That these regulations would come to a 3


### public hearing while I'm temporarily living and 4


### working here in D.C. seems to me to be a 5


### particularly serendipitous circumstance. I've 6


### had the opportunity to attend several hearings 7


### and meetings on the proposed regulations, as well 8


### as attempts to derail them. 9


### I noticed immediately what many who have 10


### experienced these unique gatherings have also 11



### noted, the the atrical nature of the events, t he 12


### carefully chosen and repeated dialog that 13


### ultimately says as much abou t the performance as 14



### it does about the content of what is said. 15


### I want to draw your attention to one of 16



### the most oft

- repeated and ultimately 17


### insubstantial phrases, because I think it 18


### deserves substance and may help to convey my 19


### opinion about this particu lar matter. And that 20


### is "common sense." You've all heard it. But why 21


### use this phrase? Both sides of this particular 22

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### political contest use it, but only one side, i n 1


### my judgment, has the right, the just right , to 2


### employ it. 3



### "These standards are common s ense

. " In a 4


### few seconds, deconstructing the implications of 5


### this phrase may help clarify my position. One 6


### approach is to look at common sense as a sort of 7


### majority opinion. This isn't the most creative 8


### interpretation, but if representatives want to 9


### just ifiably harness the idea, majority opinion 10


### bears consideration. A majority of Americans 11


### recognize that climate change exists and that 12


### it's negatively affecting them. 13



### Most Americans also backs cuts to 14


### greenhouse gas emissions from power plants. 15


### According to this crude rubric, it would seem 16


### that the EPA is simply following a mandate as 17


### much dictated by common sense as it was by 18



### Obama's Climate Action Plan. 19


### As much as I value the majority opinion 20


### on this particular issue, a more valuable 21


### interpretation of "common sense," in my opinion, 22

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### is to channel the underlying spirit of perhaps 1


### the most famous employer of common sense in the 2


### theater of public opinion, Thomas Payne. 3



### In the introduction to his R evolutionary 4


### pamphlet, Payne admitted that "Common sense nee d 5


### not exclusively be dictated by a majority 6


### opinion," because to a certain extent

-- and I'm 7


### paraphrasing here

-- we are creatures of custom, 8


### unaccustomed to change. 9


### These EPA regulations are a change, and a 10


### positive one, but still a change that opponents 11


### of these regulations are ill

- prepared for. The 12



### modern world was built on fossil fuels, and 13


### changing, even slightly, the manner in which we 14


### balance energy and environmental impact will draw 15


### a position. This is expected, which should not 16



### dissuade us from moving forward. 17


### In defense of this principle, I'd like to 18


### draw a more personal connection to my home state 19



### of Kansas, where some of the most vociferous 20


### opposition to new carbon standards has been 21


### heard, but where, nonetheless, valuable changes 22

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### were implem ented. 1


### Kansas may be one of the most suitable 2


### locations for renewable energy, particularly 3



### wind, but it's nonetheless fossil

- fuel country. 4


### Kansas is a natural gas hub and a coal consumer. 5


### Coal is shipped daily from Wyoming to fuel our 6


### energy demands. 7



### C oal has also been a central point of 8


### contention in Kansas, both in my home city of 9


### Lawrence and across the state. Up until the last 10


### five years, the Westar plant in Lawrence was 11


### listed by the EPA as one of the top emitters of 12


### greenhouse gases. Lawrencians living in the 13


### immediate vicinity of the plant frequently 14


### complained about the obvious impacts this plant 15


### had on their health and on its symbolic and 16



### material status as a massive emitter of 17


### greenhouse gases. 18


### In the last several years, however , the 19



### Westar plant in Lawrence, as well as others in 20


### locations throughout e astern Kansas, were 21


### upgraded or in the process of being upgraded. 22

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### The decision to implement these changes was 1


### largely in response to lawsuits for noncompliance 2


### with the Clean Air Act, though ob viously not 3



### related to carbon dioxide. 4


### The point is, though, that these plants 5


### changed or are currently being changed. The 6



### costs were absorbed, and Lawrencians, in 7


### particular, breathe safer air than before. 8


### This example has two implications for the 9



### curr ent issue. One, that change is possible, 10


### even if it's against custom; and two, these 11


### changes yield appreciable benefits immediately 12



### f elt by surrounding communities. 13


### This is not to say that the work is done. 14


### This Lawrence plant is still a large emitter o f 15


### greenhouses gases, and it is a poisonous symbol 16



### of our continued reliance on coal in Kansas, as 17


### are all of the plants in Kansas. 18


### It's also a necessary symbol of 19


### transition, dictated by the Clean Air Act and 20


### implemented on a local level. Naturally, this 21


### plant is an existing source, so it falls outside 22

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### the regulations currently under consideration. 1



### But the lessons are still relevant for new 2


### sources planned for Kansas, and particularly the 3


### Sunflower plant in Holcomb, Kansas. 4



### These standards would have an immediate 5


### impact in that community, allowing at least one 6


### community to avoid the situation understood by 7


### every Lawrencian. Thank you. 8


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 9


### So, the next two speakers we're going to 10


### call up are Elizabeth Perera and Anthony 11


### Rodriguez. 12



### Ms. Perera? 13



### MS. PERERA: Thank you. Good afternoon. 14



### I'm E lizabeth Martin Perera. I'm a s enior 15


### Washington r epresentative working on climate 16



### change , coal , and public health for the N ational 17



### Sierra Club. I hold a M aster's of P ublic H ealth 18



### and E nvironmen tal H ealth , and a M aster's of 19



### E nvironmental M anagement with a focus on 20


### pollution, climate, and energy

- related studies. 21


### And I've been working on climate policy here in 22

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### Washington for almost a decade. 1


### I am also here to represent, as a 2



### volunteer, the Americ an Public Health 3


### Association. I'm the Chair of the Topic 4


### Committee on Climate Change. And as was 5



### mentioned earlier, the American Public Health 6


### Association has recognized since 1994 that 7


### climate change is a major public health threat. 8



### I'm also the mother of two, a three

- and 9



### five

- year
- old. And I'm especially here today to 10


### represent them, because in 50 years, when all of 11


### us may not be here or be too old to come here, 12


### they will be in the prime of their lives and will 13


### be affected by some of the greatest con sequences 14


### of climate change. So I feel it's most important 15


### to represent then. 16


### The Sierra Club supports the EPA's 17


### proposed carbon pollution standards for new power 18


### plants. And , you know, I grew up in Baltimore, 19


### Maryland, and not too far from Crane Power Plant, 20


### which is one of the oldest and dirtiest power 21


### plants in Maryland

. 22

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### This coal plant has long been responsible 1



### for deaths, heart attacks, asthma attacks, 2



### chronic bronchitis, ER visits. And we know that 3



### it s uncontrolled carbon pollution has been 4



### threa tening the future of the State of Maryland 5


### for some time and causing and contributing to 6


### climate disruption. 7


### My state's cherished heritage around the 8


### Chesapeake Bay and the Eastern Shore is gravely 9


### under threat from climate disruption. Whether 10



### it's sea l evel rise that's inundating our 11


### islands, and some have actually disappeared, or 12


### more extreme heat waves in Baltimore City, this 13


### is a major problem for the population of 14


### Maryland. 15


### We must not let future power plants 16


### continue to gravely impact our health an d our way 17


### of life. And Sierra Club has actually been 18


### calling for the retirement of this, Crane Power 19


### Plant, and the Wagner Coal Plant , for some time. 20


### We must ensure that these kinds of polluting 21


### power plants are not built in the future. 22

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### These standards for new power plants are 1


### a crucial step forward on the way to the 2


### regulation of existing power plants, where we 3


### know that the majority of carbon pollution is 4


### from. These standards reflect a commonsense way 5


### forward for what most Americans already know is 6



### h appening, that climate change is real and it's a 7


### major threat. 8



### We believe that the standard could be 9


### made stronger and more stringent for natural gas 10


### power plants and that less exemptions for certain 11


### power plants could make the entire standard 12



### stronger an d the future standard. 13


### Although this opportunity is historic and 14


### we must move forward and we stand boldly behind 15


### the EPA and support the EPA and everyone working 16


### for it as moving us into the future that we know 17


### will be cleaner and safer and more prosperou s for 18


### our children and grandchildren. Thank you. 19


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 20


### Mr. Rodriguez? 21


### MR. RODRIGUEZ: Thank you. I'm Anthony 22

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### Michael Rodriguez from Texas Southern University, 1


### Houston, Texas. Greetings to the members. 2



### From Houston Texas Southern U niversity, 3


### Barbara Jordan Mickey Leland School of Public 4


### Affairs, the Mickey Leland Center for Environment 5


### Justice and Sustainability, and more 6


### specifically, our President, Dr. John Rudley , and 7



### the Dean, R. Robert Bullard, "the Father of 8



### Environmental Just ice," I say greetings again. 9


### At this moment, my input and 10


### participation were those of the institution I 11


### represent, the Mickey Leland Center. 12


### Now I speak of a personal connection to 13


### the impacts of carbon pollution, the use of 14


### fossil fuels, the degradation of the environment, 15


### specifically, new power plants. In 1988, soon 16


### after the birth of my second child, my wife and I 17


### were informed he had a massive medical problem. 18


### My son had a congenital heart defect called 19


### "transposition of the great arteries." 20



### Prai se God, at the time we had excellent 21



### insurance and excellent service at the Houston 22

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### Medical Center at St. Luke's Hospital. The 1


### operation to correct the arteries was performed 2


### by the best in the world. Sadly, our son never 3


### came out of surgery. 4



### Now we liv e in the Houston

- Galveston non

5


### attainment area. My wife grew up in the shadows 6


### of a pollution

- intensive industry and worked in 7


### that industry for over 13 years prior to that 8


### experience. I have been a resident of the region 9


### for 34 years. I have seen the p otential birth 10


### defects due to toxins, generally and personally. 11


### Again, in 1990, we went through a similar 12


### experience with our third child, who was born 13


### with a shorter right femur. Praise God, she 14


### lives today and is doing quite well. 15


### The point is, member s of this comm ittee, 16


### we the people need you. 17


### My research , published as a dissertation 18



### in 2012 , surveyed a sample of residents of Harris 19


### County to get their opinion on issues of urban 20


### forestry and sustainability. One indication from 21



### the results show that members of the household 22

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### sector are dependent on the public sector 1


### operators to do the right thing in respect to 2


### their health and general welfare and that of 3



### their children. The research also demonstrates , 4


### when it comes to health, there is a high 5


### propensi ty and a willingness to change. 6


### In mitigating the effects of carbon 7


### pollution, please consider a strong connection in 8


### maintaining and replanting trees, employing 9


### planting patterns to help minimize the effects 10


### and impacts of airborne pollutants and runoff. 11


### Research has shown that trees can serve as sumps 12


### to help clean both the air and the water. This 13


### is by several, Round t ree and Nowak, McPherson, 14



### and others. 15


### Additionally, please continue to include 16


### the household sector to do the things they can do 17



### to hel p protect our environment. 18


### For example, include communities in 19


### mitigation strategies, whereby if power plants 20


### are given methods to mitigate, such could include 21


### plans to improve the quality of the tree cover in 22

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### and around urban communities, subsidize 1



### resid ential solar installations, which are a win

2



### win if considered at its fullest. Also towards 3


### reducing our overall carbon footprint, help 4


### households acquire solar self

- sufficiency. 5


### Finally, thank you for your work, and 6


### know as you press forward, the people

-- all the 7


### people

-- require the positive outcomes of a 8


### clean and healthy environment now and into the 9


### future. Our lives depend on it. 10


### Know many of us are doing our part in 11


### reducing, reusing, recycling, repairing, and 12


### reframing how we behave and do the t hings we do. 13


### We all want clean air, clean water, spaces and 14


### places for us all to live, play, and work in a 15


### manner that is not dangerous to our wellbeing. 16



### When those that are viewed in the 17


### position to make policy changes are seen working 18



### towards those val ue s that are not party

- , race
- , 19



### or income

- centric, they can find a different 20


### platform from which to win that does not require 21


### making villains of sectors of their constituency. 22

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### Please know the masses, the households, 1



### the kit

- and

- kin sector life depends on you. 2


### Please do not let us down. Again, from Texas 3


### Southern University , the Barbara Jordan Mickey 4


### Leland School of Public Affairs, Mickey Leland 5



### Center for Environment Justice and 6


### Sustainability, thank you very much. 7


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. 8



### So, ne xt we'd like to call up Jacob 9


### Hornfeld and Philip Huffeldt. 10


### MR. HORNFELD: Hi. Thanks for hearing me 11


### today. So, I'm just here for myself. I don't 12


### represent anyone. And so I'd like to just speak 13


### on a more personal level. 14


### Back in August of 2011

-- 15



### MR . HUNTON: Could you state your name, 16


### please? 17


### MR. HORNFELD: Oh, sorry. My name is 18



### Jacob Hornfeld. 19


### Back in August of 2011, I walked out of 20


### my house, went across the street to my neighbor's 21


### hay field, and I went for a swim. It was 22

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### completely flooded. The stream usually goes 1


### through, you know, a brook that's maybe a foot 2


### deep. And when the snow melts, it's, you know, 3


### up to my ankles. But on this day, it was 4


### something completely different. 5


### You know, my house is up on the hill, so 6


### I figured I'd have fu n with the flood. But down 7


### the stream, there were houses getting washed 8


### away, property was lost, and people's whole 9


### worlds were destroyed. 10


### I'm a student at the University of 11


### Michigan, and I'm a proud Vermonter. When 12


### Hurricane Irene hit Vermont three yea rs ago, it 13


### completely smashed my state , $700 million worth 14


### of damage , the road systems were destroyed. 15


### Property was lost, people died. It was the worst 16


### storm in recorded state history, and the repairs 17


### are still being done today. 18



### And I know as well as an yone that you 19


### can't just attribute a storm like that to climate 20


### change. But all the evidence suggests that, with 21


### the way we're going, storms like this are going 22

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### to become more frequent and more severe. 1


### I left my home state to go to college two 2



### years ago. And I've realized since then that 3


### I'll definitely be headed back there in the 4


### future. I want to have a family in Vermont. I 5


### want to grow old there. I want to have a life 6


### there. But I want to have that life in a place 7


### that resembles where I grew up

-- you know, a 8


### Vermont with snow to ski on, with ice for pond 9


### hockey, with maple syrup and local produce and 10



### the best cheese out there. 11


### But that can't be a reality if we 12


### continue with our current policies. I'm sure 13


### you've had the statistics quoted to you a ll day. 14


### You know, you know that adding carbon to our 15


### warming atmosphere is just going to exacerbate 16


### our problems. Exempting power plants from 17


### regulation, you know, things like this are going 18


### to destroy us. 19


### Instead of enjoying, you know, playing in 20



### the s now, my future kids are going to deal with 21


### climate refugee issues. Instead of being able to 22

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### grow, you know, vegetables in my garden, I'm 1


### going to be dealing with extended droughts. 2


### But it doesn't have to be that way. 3


### Adopting policies like this one that we're here 4


### to comment on today is really tangible progress 5


### towards a sustainable, enjoyable future. I'm 6


### happy to see that the EPA is doing concrete work 7


### like this, taking clear steps in the right 8



### direction. 9


### Please support these regulations, and 10


### please k eep pushing for stricter, more effective 11


### ways to limit carbon pollution. Thanks. 12


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 13


### MR. HUFFELDT: Hello. Thank you for the 14


### opportunity to present my statement today. My 15


### name is Philip Huffeldt. I am the Coordinator , 16



### Snowriders International. And I am a lifelong 17


### skier. And global warming caused by carbon 18


### pollution is threatening my way of life as a 19



### skier. 20



### I've traveled from Denver, Colorado, 21


### today to represent the skiers, snowboarders, and 22

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### mountain recreation enthusiasts acros s the 1


### country. I find this discussion to be especially 2


### relevant with the Winter Olympics right around 3



### the corner. This iconic, historical event is 4


### just on e more part of winter that is in danger of 5


### disappearing from our lives. 6


### I have been skiing since be fore I could 7


### walk and as soon as I was strong enough to ride 8


### in my dad's backpack in Vail, Colorado , in the 9


### 1980s. My dad has been skiing his entire life as 10


### well, was a professional ski instructor, and 11


### taught my entire immediate family to ski. His 12



### father was a skier, too. Skiing has been in my 13


### family for generations, and I sincerely hope for 14


### many generations to come. 15


### That's why the time is now to protect 16


### priceless pastimes, a way of life, and entire 17


### economies from literally melting away. 18



### Skiers, snowbo arders, and all kinds of 19


### mountain enthusiasts are losing what they love 20


### due to decreased snow pack and shorter, more 21


### erratic winters. In fact, according to the 22

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### International Panel on Climate Change, winter is 1


### at least 20 days shorter in places than it was in 2


### 1972, and it's only getting warmer. 3


### If carbon pollution continues unchecked, 4


### by the end of this century we may not have skiing 5


### in the United States anymore. For this reason, 6



### we the skiers, boarders, and mountain recreation 7



### enthusiasts of America won' t sit idly by while 8


### our way of life melts away. 9



### Entire communities and state economies 10


### are at risk as well. Unpredictable winters and 11


### decreased winter snow pack have already cost the 12


### winter sports world over $1 billion since 1999, 13


### according to the report released by the Natural 14



### Resources Defense Council, and others. 15



### And that doesn't end with skiers and 16


### snowboarders. Drought, floods, wildfires, and 17


### damaged ecosystems are hurting all kinds of 18



### moun tain recreation enthusiasts. H unters, 19


### anglers, kayakers, a nd many more are also 20


### dependent upon a steady snow pack and a stable 21


### climate to support game migrations, strong 22

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### rivers, and healthy forests. 1


### Artificial snow and skiing on grass won't 2


### save our communities or our way of life, but 3


### saving winter by cutting ca rbon emissions will. 4


### I urge the EPA to protect snow sports, the Winter 5


### Olympics, and mountain recreation by making these 6


### strong carbon pollution standards for new and 7


### existing power plants so power plants are no 8


### longer allowed to dump unlimited amount of 9


### dangerous carbon pollution into the air. 10


### Let's ensure that my children and my 11


### children's children will share the same joy and 12


### priceless traditions that I have. Please act on 13


### climate now. Thank you. 14


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. Thanks. 15



### So next, I'd l ike to call Travis Madsen 16


### and Jill Borak, please. 17



### Mr. Madsen? 18


### MR. MADSEN: Thank you very much. My 19


### name is Travis Madsen. I'm the Senior Program 20


### Manager for Global Warming at Environment 21



### America. I'm here on behalf of our million 22

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### members and supporter s across the country, and 1


### I'm also here as an individual to express our 2


### support for the proposed rules to limit carbon 3


### pollution from new power plants. 4


### I'm from Colorado originally. And I 5



### current live there. And when I was a kid, I 6


### spent a lot of time a t a cabin that one of my 7


### ancestors built, up in the mountains next to a 8



### wilderness area where the mountainsides were 9


### covered with green pine trees. 10


### And over the years, I've returned to this 11


### place often. And I've noticed that there's a 12


### shocking change und erway. A lot of the trees 13


### that used to be green are turning brown as a pine 14


### beetle infestation chews through the forests. 15


### And then the brown trees are slowly turning gray 16


### as the needles fall off. And I've really noticed 17


### it's a dramatic change. 18



### Temperat ures are about two degrees warmer 19


### now than they were at the beginning of the 20


### Industrial Revolution, and just that little 21


### temperature change is already increasing the 22

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### changes, impacts, that are happening in my home 1



### state. We've had wildfires. We had a mas sive 2



### flood outside of Boulder, Colorado, this summer 3


### where almost a year's worth of rainfall fell in 4


### the span of just a handful of days, washed out a 5



### bunch of roads. 6


### And this is just touching the surface of 7


### the different kinds of impacts that global 8



### warmi ng is having all across the United States. 9



### When I look at the forecast for what 10


### could happen in the future if we continue to emit 11


### unlimited amounts of carbon pollution into the 12


### air, scientists are talking about a temperature 13



### increase on the order to 10 de grees Fahrenheit 14


### across much of the United States. I would really 15


### like to not experience what that would be like. 16


### I think we need to do everything we can to 17


### prevent that from happening. 18


### And I think, you know, finding ourselves 19


### in a hole, the first thing we should do is stop 20


### digging. The rules that the President and the 21


### Environmental Protection Agency have proposed to 22

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### regulate carbon pollution from new power plants 1


### is a strong step in the right direction. 2


### More than 3 million Americans agree with 3



### me and have commented in support of these rules. 4


### And I would like to urge the EPA to move forward 5


### and implement these rules as soon as possible. 6


### Thank you very much. 7


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 8


### MS. BORAK: Hello. My name is Jill 9


### Borak. I'm the Policy Manager a t the Jewish 10



### Council for Public Affairs. I'm here on behalf 11



### of the Coalition on the Environment and Jewish 12



### Life, an initiative with 27 national Jewish 13


### partner agencies spanning the full spectrum of 14


### Jewish religious and communal life, and the 15



### Jewish Counci l for Public Affairs, the public 16


### affairs arm of the Jewish community, and the 17


### national coordinating and advisory board body for 18


### 15 national and 125 local Jewish community 19


### relations agencies. 20


### Thank you for this opportunity to offer 21


### Jewish support for EPA's proposed carbon 22

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### pollution standards for new power plants. 1



### The United States is one of the world's 2


### leading contributors to climate change and air 3


### pollution. And power plants are one of our 4


### nation's largest sources of carbon pollution. 5


### The proposed stand ards would 6


### substantially alleviate these problems by 7


### limiting 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide from new 8



### coal

- fired power plants per megawatt hour 9


### generated, and 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide 10



### from natural

- gas
- fired power plants. 11


### As people of faith, we canno t sit idly by 12


### knowing that the world's poorest and most 13


### vulnerable communities are suffering from the 14


### severe ramifications of climate change and air 15


### pollution. Around the world, climate change is 16


### already causing an increase in the frequency and 17


### intensity of droughts, heat waves, hurricanes, 18



### and storms. 19


### The consequences of extreme weather 20


### events such as Hurricane Yolanda and Super

- storm 21


### Sandy are disastrous, often causing billions of 22

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### dollars in damages to homes and infrastructure 1


### and limiting access to foo d and potable water. 2


### Carbon pollution is also linked to an 3



### increase in asthma rates, heat

- induced heart 4


### attacks, and the spread of infectious diseases. 5


### Climate change is not only one of the 6


### greatest moral challenges of our time. It is the 7


### security chall enge as well. It is putting the 8


### world in an increasingly dangerous and 9


### unpredictable state. 10


### According to defense, intelligence, and 11


### national security experts, climate change is one 12


### of the most urgent national and international 13


### security threats. Extreme weather events and 14


### erratic temperatures caused by a changing climate 15


### have the potential to destabilize already weak 16


### countries through mass migration and food and 17


### water scarcity. 18


### Politically unstable regions such as the 19


### Middle East are especially vulnerabl e to an 20



### increase in violence and conflict due to 21


### depletion of resources. If we do not act, we 22

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### will continue to experience an increase in 1


### national and international security threats 2


### stemming from environmental causes. 3


### The proposed regulations are on track 4


### with current trends and technologies in power 5


### plants and reflect the continuing decline in 6


### applications for new coal

- fired power plants. 7



### The standards reflect our Jewish laws and 8


### traditions that call on us to serve as good 9


### stewards of the earth and pursu e Tzedek, or 10


### justice for all. 11



### Ecclesiastes Rabbah 1, verse 4, informs 12


### us that one generation goes, another comes, but 13



### the earth remains the same forever. These 14


### regulations reflect our Jewish values to protect 15


### creation and will help us leave a cleaner, 16



### he althier, and safer world for future 17


### generations. 18



### While there is still much more work to be 19


### done, this carbon pollution standard signifies 20


### progress and hope that there will be continued 21


### regulations to reduce our nation's carbon 22

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### emissions. We commend EPA f or taking this 1


### important step towards limiting these harmful 2


### emissions, and we urge EPA to finalize these 3


### rules as soon as possible. 4


### Thank you for your time. 5


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 6



### So, next we'd like to call Dorthea Thomas 7



### and Linda Burchfiel. 8



### (Pause .) 9



### MR. HAEUBER: Ms. Thomas? 10


### MS. THOMAS: Hello. Good evening. I am 11


### Dorthea Thomas, a resident of Detroit, Michigan, 12


### currently working in Washington, D.C., to 13



### influence environmental an d climate justice 14


### policy with WE ACT for Environmental Justice. 15



### I' m also the F irst Vice President of the 16


### NAACP Youth and College Division in the State of 17


### Michigan and the Environmental and Climate 18



### Justice Ambassador for Youth in the State of 19


### Michigan, as well for NAACP. 20


### Today I'm coming to you to talk to you, 21


### to let you know that I support tougher carbon 22

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### emissions standards for new coal

- fired plants 1


### because the impacts of air pollution from coal

2


### fired plants severely affects low

- income 3


### communities of color and indigenous people the 4



### most. 5


### If the carbon pollution standard s for new 6


### power plants are enforced, this could 7


### significantly reduce mercury, soot, smog , 8


### pollution. Announcing new emissions standards 9


### could save up to 46,000 lives a year. 10


### In 2009, I lost my grandmother due to a 11


### very rare form of three different types of 12


### cancer. One of the things the doctors told us 13


### upon her diagnosis was, if we lived in a cleaner, 14


### safer environment, it could have prolonged her 15


### life a little while longer. However, we didn't 16


### have the money to just up and leave and forget 17


### everything. S o unfortunately, we lost her. 18


### And that inspired me to research and 19


### learn more about my community and what was 20


### affecting us, what was impacting us in a way that 21


### I was losing people I love, and I didn't 22

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### understand. 1


### Upon research, I found out that 75 2



### percen t of African Americans and Latinos live in 3



### communities that are below EPA air

- quality 4



### standards. Coal

- fired plants spew hundreds of 5


### thousands of pounds of toxic mercury into the air 6


### every year, which falls to earth in the form of 7



### rain and contaminates riv ers, lakes and streams. 8


### And it doesn't take much mercury to have a big 9


### impact on our health. 10


### Scientists found out that a single gram 11


### of mercury can contaminate an entire 20

- acre 12


### lake. My grandparents did all they could to 13


### raise me in a most just, safe, and humble way. 14


### One day I wish to start my own family, but I want 15


### to feel comfortable knowing that my children, who 16


### are of color, will be able to live in a society 17


### that protects them. They will be able to live in 18


### a healthy and just society. 19


### Passage of c arbon pollution standards 20



### will ensure that communities of color and low

21



### income communities worldwide will not face new 22

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### threats from plants that will degrade their 1


### health today, and for the future to come. 2


### At least one in two, and as many as one 3



### in six, Am erican women of childbearing age have 4


### enough mercury in their bodies to put a baby a 5


### risk for mercury poisoning. Mercury and other 6


### dangerous air pollutants are connected to extreme 7


### health problems

-- brain damage, learning 8



### disabilities, birth defects, hea rt disease, 9


### cancer, and even premature death. 10


### Mercury impairs 3,781 bodies of water 11


### across the country. And more than 6 million 12


### acres of lakes and pounds

-- of pollution

-- and 13


### ponds, excuse me, in the United States are 14


### contaminated by mercury pollution. 15


### As I continue my efforts to constantly 16


### work closely with allies in the public health and 17


### environmental justice community, lobbying key 18


### Senators and thousands of activists, together we 19


### can stand up for our future and present 20


### generations to come, and commu nities of color and 21



### also low

- income communities. 22

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### The carbon rule would prevent 123 billion 1


### pounds of carbon pollution annually. EPA's 2


### proposed rule would help mitigate climate change 3


### and achieve immediate carbon pollution reductions 4


### from new power plants . We must protect our 5


### families and create a sustainable society. 6


### Enforcing these new carbon pollution standards 7


### for power plants will not just protect climate 8


### change for generations to come, but it will start 9


### saving lives today. 10


### Something needs to be do ne to correct the 11


### ills imposed on the most vulnerable. Finalizing 12


### a new standard to reduce carbon pollution is one 13


### of those things. This will save lives, 14


### communities, and a quality of life for all people 15


### to come, not just for the future, but where I 16



### live , in Detroit, Michigan, and other low

- income 17


### communities of color. Thank you. 18


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 19



### Ms. Burchfiel? 20


### MS. BURCHFIEL: Hi. My name is Linda 21



### Burchfiel. And I'm a member of the Great Falls 22

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### Group of the Virginia Sierra Club. 1



### Now, most Am ericans get concerned about 2


### climate change because it hits their home. And 3


### for me, it's Norfolk, Virginia, where my family 4


### is from. My mother and sister still live there. 5


### When I go down to visit, I can see the effects, 6


### the damage already caused by sea l evel rise and 7


### by frequent flooding. 8


### The street my mother lives on, Granby 9


### Street, which is the main artery of Norfolk, has 10


### already had to be raised because of frequent 11


### flooding. The city has invested millions to 12



### raise streets and homes and deal with stor m 13


### water, but that's the easy part. Over the next 14


### decade, the city will need to spend $1 billion to 15



### make homes and businesses more resilient. 16



### Norfolk can't reduce the worst effects of 17


### climate change by itself. No city can. It takes 18



### federal action and un iform standards. Raising 19


### the mileage standard was a great first step, and 20


### we welcome this next step of limiting carbon 21


### emissions from future power plants. These plants 22

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### last 40 years, and so it's vital that their 1



### emissions be cut. 2


### Americans recognize the threat of climate 3


### change, and we are ready for the Federal 4


### Government to step in with uniform standards. As 5


### Will Sessoms, Mayor of Virginia Beach, which like 6


### Norfolk is also very threatened by sea level rise 7



### -- as Will Sessoms said a few months ago, "The 8


### time to act is now. We can no longer afford to 9


### do nothing." 10


### And it's not just mayors responsible for 11


### the threatened communities. We want government 12


### to act. Sophisticated polling studies, such as 13



### the most recent meta

- analysis conducted by 14



### Professor Kos nik from Stanford, which rely on 15


### large samples of randomly selected calls to land 16


### lines and cell phones all over the country, show 17


### the American people understand the basics of 18


### climate change and, more importantly, polls show 19


### Americans are now ready for gov ernment to take 20



### action. 21



### In November

– December of last year, when 22

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### asked, Should the Federal Government require 1


### power plants to limit greenhouse emissions?, 79 2


### percent said yes. That's a national number. 3


### That includes Republicans and Democrats. 4



### In an inte resting side note, Kosnik was 5


### able to come up with a state

- by

- state breakdown 6


### by compiling several different surveys and 7


### separating out responses by state, to the 8


### question about limiting emissions from power 9


### plants. He found that a majority in every state 10


### agreed to government limiting emissions from 11


### power plants. So, no state had a majority of 12


### skeptics. 13



### Americans realize we have to cut 14


### emissions and we have to start with the largest 15


### polluters, fossil

- fuel power plants. And again 16


### quoting a mayor who need s to protect his 17


### community, "The time to act is now. We cannot 18


### afford to do nothing." So, thank you for these 19



### standards. And we look forward to standards for 20


### existing power plants. 21


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both very much. 22

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### So, our next speakers will be Terry 1


### McGuire and Frank Wang. 2



### (Pause.) 3



### MR. HAEUBER: Mr. McGuire? 4


### MR. McGUIRE: Good afternoon. My name is 5


### Terry McGuire, and I'm a Washington 6


### representative with the Sierra Club. I 7


### appreciate the chance to speak today on behalf of 8



### our 2.1 million mem bers about why we support 9


### strong, just carbon pollution standards for power 10


### plants, both new and existing. 11


### Taking action to address climate 12


### disruption is not just about saving the polar 13


### bears. And while Sierra Club would certainly say 14


### that we care a grea t deal about the plight of 15


### diminishing Arctic ecosystems, this is really 16


### about people. This is about protecting public 17


### health and vulnerable communities and being able 18


### to look our grandchildren in the eyes and tell 19


### them that we did everything in our power to take 20


### action and protect their future. 21



### Cities and towns across the United States 22

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### are already witness ing firsthand the results of 1



### decades of inaction. Hotter summers mean more 2


### smog and an increase in asthma and other 3


### breathing

- related ailments, which i s of 4


### particular concern to children and the elderly. 5


### Increased wildfires put our homes, 6


### national parks, and firefighters in harm's way. 7


### Violent super

- storms like Hurricanes Katrina and 8


### Sandy put our coastal communities and first 9


### responders in danger. Dr ought threatens our food 10


### and water supplies and the way of life for 11


### farmers and ranchers. Decreased snow packs hurt 12


### local economies that depend on winter recreation. 13


### I would say that if this is a glimpse in 14


### what our way of life could look like on a regul ar 15


### basis if we fail to act, I suggest we listen to 16


### the 97 percent of climate scientists calling for 17


### bold leadership and strong actions right now to 18


### mitigate the potential worst effects of global 19


### climate disruption. 20


### Power plants account for 40 percent of 21



### t he industrial carbon pollution emissions in the 22

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### United States. And right now, as you know, there 1


### are no limits on the amount they can emit into 2


### our atmosphere. We believe this is both wrong 3


### and irresponsible. 4


### There is no legitimate debate to be had 5



### on t he science behind climate disruption. 6


### Climate deniers and lobbyists for big corporate 7


### polluters find themselves on shaky ground. 8


### Increasingly unable to ignore the science, their 9


### arguments are frequently shifted to doom

- and

10


### gloom economic predictions. 11



### Bu t we know that this is a false choice. 12


### Since its bipartisan passage, the Clean Air Act 13



### has been one of the most successful laws ever 14


### enacted, simultaneously growing our economy, 15


### driving innovation, and clearing our air and 16


### water. Despite what they may sa y, these Chicken 17


### Littles are not afraid of the economic sky 18


### falling; they're afraid of reduced CEO bonuses 19


### and corporate profit margins falling. 20



### Our staff, members, and volunteers are on 21


### the ground in every state and Puerto Rico, and 22

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### what they are hearing is a strong national call 1


### for EPA to act and implement President Obama's 2


### Climate Action Plan. Poll after poll 3


### consistently reaffirms this, demonstrating 4


### bipartisan public support for action to address 5


### climate disruption. 6


### These polls also tell us that, 7



### o verwhelmingly, the public trust EPA, not 8


### Congress, to protect our environment and public 9



### health. 10


### So we urge you to stand strong in the 11


### face of industry opposition to what we think are 12


### commonsense, long overdue safeguards, and 13



### remember that millions of Ame ricans have weighed 14


### in. I think the number is something over 3 15


### million, the clear majority in support of action. 16


### We really look forward to working with 17


### you to ensure that strong carbon standards for 18


### new and existing power plants are quickly 19


### implemented. Thank you for your work to protect 20


### our families and communities, and thank you again 21


### for the chance to speak today. 22

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### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 1



### Mr. Wang? 2


### MR. WANG: Good afternoon. Thank you for 3


### letting me speak here. My name is Frank Wang. 4



### I'm the Pre sident and Founder of Green 5


### Technology. Green Technology is R&D and 6


### consulting firm which focus es the emission on 7


### developed carbon

- capture technology. We strongly 8


### support EPA's proposed regulation. 9


### And we're working with the Department of 10



### En ergy to work on the carbon

- capture technology. 11


### We think this is critically important to the 12


### health, public health and economic health , of 13


### this country. 14


### While our research activity has been 15


### funded by the D epartment of Energy, the carbon

16


### capture program, we have sever al projects under 17


### development right now for post

- combustion 18


### capture. Solvent technology, solvent technology, 19


### and technology for carbon utilization. 20


### I think that the impact of the EPA's 21


### proposed regulation will have on the utility 22

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### industry is going to be significant. And 1



### current , the proposal, it is on the new source 2


### only. We already see the utility industry switch 3



### from coal

- fired power generation to the gas power 4


### generation very quickly. 5


### And however, this did not trigger the 6


### deployment, commercial dep loyment of the carbon

7


### capture technology because of the cost of the 8


### technology and its impact on the utility 9


### companies

-- their commercial profits, so to 10


### speak. 11


### So, we think that the critical piece in 12



### this dilemma is

-- the dilemma we're talking 13



### about is that one side is benefits of the public 14



### health; another side is cost increase to the 15


### utility companies, and also ultimately to th e end 16


### user of the electricity. 17



### We must reduce the cost for carbon CO2 18



### emission reduction. To do that is to find a way 19



### to bene ficially utilization of the CO2 captured, 20


### which is technology we're working on. We hope 21


### this regulation will set right direction for the 22

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### industry and for the government body to further 1


### support the CCS technology development and 2


### deployment. 3



### And with that, we hope that a new market 4


### may be created, and its new market will be the 5


### carbon market, which has a market potential even 6


### bigger than the oil and gas industry in the 7



### future. 8



### So I'm here to not

-- we're already hear 9


### a lot of speakers talk about the benefi ts on the 10


### public health side. So I want here to stress 11


### that the benefits of the regulation as 12


### significant economic drivers. If this regulation 13


### gets implemented in the industry, I foresee that 14


### you will have

-- you will put a price tag or 15



### value on the CO2, which will create a market for 16


### the CO2, ultimately. 17


### So, which will have significant impact 18


### and economic impact and may create numerous jobs 19


### as well. A new industry may be created by this 20


### regulation. 21


### With that, I think this regulation is 22

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### very significan t, and we're very supportive of 1


### this regulation , and hopefully it goes to the 2


### implementation as soon as possible. 3



### Also, we look forward to see the new 4


### regulation on existing power plants, which 5


### currently do generate about 39 percent of the 6


### electricity in this country, which needs to be 7


### regulated as well. Thank you very much. 8


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. 9


### Okay. Our next speakers will be 10


### Alexander Krupp and Collin Rees. 11



### (Pause.) 12



### MR. HAEUBER: Mr. Krupp? 13


### MR. REES: I'm Mr. Rees, actually. 14



### MR. HAEUBER: Oh, sorry. 15



### Mr. Krupp? 16


### MR. KRUPP: My name is Alexander Krupp. 17



### I ' m an intern for an environmental advocacy group 18


### called Environmental Virginia, and also a student 19


### at George Mason University. 20


### Before graduating high school, my friend 21



### and I talked about what we were going to do after 22

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### we left. He told me he wanted to be a marine. 1


### So I asked why he wanted to do that, and he said, 2


### "So I can fight to protect us." 3


### I told him after the same question that I 4


### wanted to be Administrator of the EPA when I got 5



### out . He asked why I wanted to do that, and I 6


### said, "So I can fight to protect us from 7



### ourselves." 8



### Since then I've decided to dedicate 9


### myself to the earth just as he has to our 10



### country. 11


### Now that I'm in college, it's easier to 12


### find people who actually care a bout preserving 13


### the earth like I do. But apart from signing 14


### petitions and going to rallies, what can we young 15


### people actually accomplish? 16



### No matter how many protests are 17


### organized, companies are still going to dump 18


### waste and chemicals, poisoning the ocea n 19


### resources that we all depend on. They're still 20


### going to frack and drill for natural gas, 21


### contaminating water supplies and risking the 22

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### health of hundreds of thousands of families, like 1


### the recent events in West Virginia. 2


### And why is the next generation o f 3


### Americans' future in great risk? Because in our 4


### government, we're considered a capitalist 5


### society. This means that when institutions full 6


### of greed and ignorance are the ones with money 7


### and power, the entire constituency of earth is 8


### who pays the price t ag. Our plants produce 40 9


### percent of the carbon in this country, and the 10



### control over pollution limits should better 11


### reflect the opinions and efforts of the 12


### constituency. 13



### The United States , being the second

14


### largest carbon

- producing country in the world , 15


### has an opportunity to greatly reduce emissions by 16


### finalizing these new power plant regulations. At 17


### the same time, there are members of Congress who 18


### oppose the regulations, oppose progress, oppose a 19



### fossil

- free future for earth. And for what 20



### purpose? 21



### It' s time for us to move forward 22

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### together, without partisan politics and quivering 1


### hearts, because the effects of climate change are 2


### not based on the opinion s of anyone in this room. 3


### They are destructive and more frequent 4


### hurricanes, drought, and ocean acidi fication. 5


### So why is it that when our country faced 6


### catastrophes like the Great Depression, two world 7


### wars, Americans in the government put their 8


### hearts and minds towards solving the problem? 9



### Yet in our own lifetimes, we're faced with the 10


### most serious glo bal health threat in the history 11


### of mankind, and our leaders squabble over whether 12



### it's even an issue. 13



### All we need to do is finalize this first 14


### step in taking America to a new height in health, 15


### technology, and prosperity. By limiting 16


### emissions from power plants and decreasing 17


### dependence on dirty energy, we give ris e to a new 18


### dawn in our country. 19


### We can create tens of thousands of jobs 20


### for the next generation of Americans with 21


### renewable energy, boost our economy with ensured 22

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### long

- term benefits, and make s ure our air and 1


### water stays clean, something that many other 2


### countries like Finland, Sweden, and Germany have 3


### already been doing for years. 4


### Recently, when hearing debates between 5


### the Environmental Protection Agency and those who 6


### oppose their help, it soun ds as though the EPA is 7


### a police officer trying to talk down a man from a 8


### ledge because he was told that he has 9



### limitations. These limits that we set for 10


### ourselves are not to keep us from achieving. 11


### They're to humble us and remind that we are not 12



### invinci ble. 13


### We use limits to advance our capabilities 14


### and create new ways to succeed. By taking this 15


### opportunity to establish our limits for carbon 16


### pollution, we have the means to become a better 17


### country that we and our grandchildren can be 18


### proud of and the res t of the world will actually 19



### respect. 20


### The EPA has already received more than 21


### 2.5 million public comments supporting this, 22

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### along with the 114 that have been collected from 1


### fellow students at George Mason University in one 2


### day. I can't wait for the day in America that 3


### people will be embarrassed to admit that they 4


### ever disputed the blatant reality of climate 5


### change. And we as students support everything 6


### the EPA has been doing to protect us. Thank you. 7


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you. 8



### Mr. Rees? 9



### MR. REES: Yes. Good afternoon. My name 10



### is Collin Rees, and I work with the Youth 11


### Sustainable Development and Climate Advocacy 12


### Group called Sustain Us. As a trained engineer 13


### who has worked on climate change in business, 14


### civil society, and the U.S. Government, I have 15



### bee n involved in policy and climate issues for 16



### many years. 17


### I am here to testify in favor of strong 18


### and just carbon pollution standards for new 19



### sources under Section 111B of the Clean Air Act. 20


### The proposed standards are not strong enough and 21



### will not do enou gh to change our future energy 22

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### mix and put us on a path to a clean energy future 1


### and a livable planet. 2


### Climate change is real. It 3


### disproportionately impacts our most vulnerable 4


### populations who have contributed the least to 5


### cumulative greenhouse gas emiss ions, and its 6


### effects are already impacting and killing 7


### millions of people across the world. It's only 8


### going to get worse until we make a true 9


### commitment to stopping it. 10



### These standards for new sources can be an 11


### important, meaningful step in that commitm ent, or 12


### they can be weak and effectively useless, as the 13


### draft standards are right now. 14



### I would first like to address the 15


### proposed standards for natural gas combustion 16


### turbines, which are not stringent enough to have 17


### a meaningful impact. The vast majorit y of NGCC 18


### sources currently emit in the 700

- to 825

- pound 19


### CO2 per megawatt hour range. Yet the proposed 20


### standards are set much higher, at 1,000 to 1,100 21


### pounds CO2 per megawatt hour. 22

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### It makes no sense to set such a useless 1


### standard, which actually encour ages future 2


### natural gas sources to be built to emit more than 3


### those that are currently operating. 4



### The Union of Concerned Scientists 5


### recently reported that encouraging natural gas

6


### based energy production will lead directly to a 7


### future energy mix in which 2 050 emissions will be 8


### virtually identical to those today. 9



### Reductions for more efficient and retired 10


### coal plants will be negated by retirements of 11



### low

- carbon nuclear plants, none of which will be 12


### able to compete economically with gas and 13


### renewable energy s ources. 14



### A true commitment to emissions reductions 15


### means we must severely limit carbon pollution 16


### from NGCC sources by requiring carbon capture and 17


### sequestration systems and increased efficiency. 18



### Next , I would like to address the carbon 19


### capture technology encouraged by the proposed 20


### standards as a means of reducing emissions from 21



### future coal

- fired power sources. If carbon is to 22

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### be captured, it must be securely sequestered. 1


### The EPA should not encourage carbon being pumped 2


### underground and used for further ex ploitation of 3


### fossil fuels through enhanced oil recovery, as is 4


### planned for the Kemper County, Mississippi , power 5


### plant. 6


### CO2 EOR is madness. To credibly move 7



### toward a low

- carbon energy future and a livable 8



### climate, we cannot continue to burn coal and mak e 9


### huge amounts of CO2 and use the byproducts to 10


### produce more oil, which is also disastrous for 11



### the climate. That's not moving forward to the 12


### future that we need to see. That's moving 13



### backward. 14



### The final 111B standard need s to 15


### encourage truly transformat ive carbon capture and 16


### sequestration systems. Given that the IPCC has 17


### reported the possible emissions reduction 18


### potential of CCS to be 80 to 90 percent, we need 19


### to require that the carbon capture and 20


### sequestration systems of coal

- fired power plants 21



### captur e 80 to 90 percent of CO2 emitted and store 22

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### it permanently. 1


### Finally, I would like to emphasize that 2


### the proposed standards that we are discussing 3


### today are for power plants that are yet to be 4


### built. These standards will not affect plants 5


### that are in oper ation now, nor plants nearing the 6


### end of their useful lives that will be shutting 7



### down soon. 8


### These standards will regulate plants that 9


### will be built and pollute our atmosphere for the 10



### next several decades. This is not about 11



### emissions in the near future; this is about 12


### America's energy future and America's future 13


### greenhouse gas emissions. I urge the EPA not to 14


### underestimate this responsibility. 15



### The window to address the climate crisis 16


### is closing rapidly, and we must act on climate 17



### now. The climate is cha nging. Extreme weather 18


### events are on the rise, and millions of people 19


### are already dying and being displaced due to the 20


### impacts of climate change. Current generations 21


### are imperiled, and the fate of future generations 22

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### lies in your hands. 1


### By issuing just, ambitious carbon 2


### pollution standards based on science and 3


### commensurate with the scale of the challenge 4


### ahead of us, America can be a global leader in 5


### fighting climate change and put us on a path to a 6


### clean energy future and a healthy planet. Thank 7


### you for your time. 8


### MR. HAEUBER: Thank you both. 9


### (Whereupon, at 4:46 p.m., a recess was 10


### taken, to reconvene at 5:00 p.m.) 11



### MR. HAEUBER: So, it is five o'clock. 12


### We're going to break for an hour for dinner. The 13


### hearing will resume at six o'clock, and last from 14


### 6:00 until 8:00 p.m. And remember, if you want 15



### to make a statement, a five

- minute statement, 16


### please sign up with the folks at the registration 17


### desk out in the lobby. And we'll see you back 18


### here at 6:00 p.m. Thank you. 19


### (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m., a dinne r recess 20


### was taken, to reconvene at 6:00 p.m.) 21

22

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### EVENING SESSION 1



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Well, good evening. 2


### Thank you for attending this public hearing. My 3


### name is Jan Cortelyou, and I work for EPA's 4


### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards. 5



### I'll be ch airing this portion of the hearing 6


### tonight. 7


### Joining me on the panel are Gabrielle 8



### Stevens and Beth Collin, with EPA's Clean Air 9



### Markets Division. 10


### We're here tonight to listen to your 11


### comments on EPA's proposed carbon pollution 12


### standard for new power plan ts. EPA published the 13


### proposed standards in the Federal Register on 14


### January 8th, 2014 . This commonsense step under 15



### the Clean Air Act would, for the first time, set 16


### national limits on the amount of carbon pollution 17


### power plants built in the future can emi t. 18


### EPA is proposing to set an emission 19


### standard of 1,100 pounds of carbon dioxide per 20


### megawatt hour on a gross output basis for new 21



### fossil

- powered utility boilers, and for 22

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### integrated gasification combined

- cycle units. 1


### The EPA is also proposing standards for natural

2



### gas
- fired combustion turbines. Those proposed 3


### standards are 1,000 pounds of CO2 per megawatt 4


### hour for large combustion turbines units and 5


### 1,100 pounds of CO2 per megawatt hour for a small 6


### combustion turbine units. The Agency's proposal 7



### does n ot apply to existing units. 8


### EPA's proposed standard reflects the 9


### ongoing trend in the power sector to build 10



### cleaner lower

- emitting plants. The proposal is 11


### flexible and would help minimize carbon pollution 12


### through the deployment of the same types of 13



### moder n technologies that power companies are 14


### already using to build the next generation of 15


### power plants. 16


### EPA's proposal would ensure that this 17


### progress toward a cleaner, safer, and more modern 18


### power sector continues. 19


### Today, we will be accepting oral comments 20


### on all aspects of our proposal , a nd we will 21


### prepare a written transcript of the hearing. The 22

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### transcript will be available as part of our 1



### official record for th is r ule and will be placed 2


### in the regulatory docket. We also are accepting 3



### written comments on the proposed rule until March 4



### 10th, 2014. 5


### At the registration area, which is 6


### located in the lobby outside of this room , there 7


### are handouts with detailed information outlining 8


### how to submit written comments by mail, fax, or 9


### electronically. EPA will consid er your comments 10


### as we move forward to complete a final rule. 11


### Written statements and supporting 12


### information submitted during the comment period 13


### will be considered with the same weight as any 14


### oral comments and supporting information 15


### presented at today's he aring. 16



### Now let me describe the logistics for 17


### tonight 's hearing. I will call the scheduled 18


### speakers to the table in pairs. When it is your 19


### turn to speak, please state your name and your 20



### affiliation before you begin your testimony. It 21


### would help our Cour t Reporter if you also spell 22

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### your last name. 1


### In order to be fair to everyone, we will 2


### limit your testimony to five minutes each and ask 3


### that everyone remain at the table until both 4


### speakers in a pair have finished

. 5


### After you finish your testimony, member s 6


### of the panel may ask clarifying questions. If 7


### you would like to provide us a copy of your 8


### testimony, you can give a copy to the 9


### registration desk out in the lobby, or we 10


### recommend that you follow the procedure above for 11


### submitting documents to the regul atory docket. 12


### We have a timekeeping system consisting 13



### of green, yellow, and red lights to help you keep 14


### track of your five minutes to speak. When you 15


### begin speaking, the green light will come on. 16


### The yellow light will signal that you have one 17



### minute lef t to speak. When the red light comes 18



### on, five minutes have passed , and I will ask you 19



### to please complete your testimony. 20



### We will continue this hearing until 8:00 21


### p.m., or later if needed , tonight. If any 22

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### questions arise through the evening , please see a 1


### staff member at the registration table for 2



### assistance. Thank you all again for 3


### participating tonight. Let's get started. 4



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: And let's see. The 5


### first two speakers are Gabriel Thoumi and Lonnie 6



### Ellis. 7


### Mr. Thoumi, do you want to start? 8


### MR. THOUMI: Yeah. My name is Gabriel 9



### Thoumi. 10



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: I'm so sorry. 11


### (Laughter.) 12



### MR. THOUMI: That's fine. No one ever 13


### gets my name right. That's T

- h

- o
- u - m
- i. 14


### These are prepared remarks by Calvert 15


### Investments. Thank you for the opportun ity to 16



### comment on the new

- source standards for carbon 17


### dioxide from future power plants. My name is 18


### Gabriel Thoumi. I am both a finance professional 19


### and a trained scientists with multiple advanced 20


### degrees in each field. 21


### I'm a chartered financial analyst, 22

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### charter holder of the CFA Institute, and I'm a 1


### certified ecologist by the Ecological Society of 2


### America. I have 15 years experience in 3


### institutional funds management at many public and 4


### private sector institutions and have eight years 5


### experience in sustai nability working in 28 6


### countries. I'm also an expert reviewer to the 7


### IPCC Fifth Assessment Report. 8


### At Calvert, I'm a senior sustainability 9


### analyst at Calvert. I cover the utilities and 10


### chemical sectors, analyzing these sectors for 11


### investment opportuniti es and risks. Calvert 12


### Investments manages over $12.5 billion in assets 13



### and has served institutional investors and retail 14


### clients for almost 40 years. Calvert Investments 15


### offers more than 40 investment strategies, many 16


### of which apply integrated, environme ntal, social, 17


### and governance research. 18



### As investors with material financial 19


### exposure today to the utilities sector, we see 20


### the coming decades as one with both major 21


### opportunities and risks for the sector. The 22

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### Brattle Group, for example, predicts that the 1


### U.S. utility industry will invest between $1.5 to 2


### $2 trillion between 2010 and 2030, a much higher 3



### level of investment than the U.S. current rate of 4



### investment. 5


### In order to meet the goals of safety, 6


### reliability, affordability, and mitigation of 7



### climate c hange , we need today to lay the 8


### foundation for an advanced electricity grid that 9


### can meet society's future energy needs, while 10


### producing 80 to 90 percent less carbon emissions. 11



### We believe the standards under discussion 12


### today is readily achievable technolo gies. Our 13


### belief is based, in large part, on the fact that 14


### the market has already moved beyond the targets 15


### sought by the standards. Coal

- fired electricity 16


### generation has traditionally been the largest 17


### component of electricity generation, representing 18



### 37 percent of the total generation in 2012. 19



### Coal is also the most carbon

- intensive 20


### fuel for electricity generation, accounting for 21


### roughly three

- quarters of the U.S. power sector 22

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### carbon emissions in 2012. 1


### While coal represents about one

- third of 2



### U.S. power generation, it emits 75 percent of 3


### U.S. emissions. Ergo, reducing emission s from 4



### coal

- fired plants is therefore critical to 5


### reducing emissions of greenhouse gases. 6


### Alternative means of producing power have 7


### become cost competitive, and in some cases even 8


### cheaper, than building new coal

- fired electricity 9


### generation. The Michigan Public Service 10


### Commission earlier this year found that new coal 11


### power is twice as expensive as new wind power, 12


### for example. 13


### Beyond simple cost considerations, coal 14


### power plants ha ve significant additional risks. 15


### These plants are more exposed to risks like 16


### changes in fuel costs; chemical pollution risks, 17


### as you have seen in West Virginia , and health 18


### risks; new environmental regulations ; and water 19


### availability. 20


### By contrast, renewab le energy and energy 21


### efficiency have a much lower risk profile. 22

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### Energy efficiency in particular is the lower 1


### cost, lowest risk energy resource. We look 2


### forward at a future date to discussing standards 3


### for existing power plants, which we believe would 4



### be a major step forward toward the adoption of 5



### low

- cost low

- risk energy efficiency and renewable 6



### energy assets. 7


### Thank you for your time and your 8


### commitment to good process. 9



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 10


### MR. ELLIS: Thank you for this 11


### opportunity to speak. My name is Lonnie Ellis, 12



### and I am a member of the Order of Franciscan 13


### Secular. I care about carbon pollution and 14


### climate change as a Catholic and lay Franciscan, 15


### and as a kid who grew up on a farm in Minnesota. 16



### I think the moral call should be clear to 17


### us. Let me quote Pope Francis: "Whenever we 18



### fail to care for creation and for our brothers 19


### and sisters, the way is open to destruction, and 20



### hearts are hardened." Or from the United States 21


### Conference of Catholic Bishops: "At its core, 22

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### global climate ch ange is not about economic 1


### theory or political platforms, nor about partisan 2


### advantage or interest group pressures. It is 3



### about the future of God's creation and the one 4


### human family." 5



### I think the moral call is clear. I think 6



### the numbers should be clear to us, as well, from 7


### a moral standpoint, that 150,000 people die every 8


### year right now because of climate change, 9


### according to the World Health Organization. And 10


### that's about 50 times the number of people who 11


### died on September 11th, 50 times. 12



### But it can b e hard for us to imagine 13


### maybe a vibrant, caring relationship with 14


### creation, you know, from our decision makers, or 15



### even all of us, how we could have a renewed sense 16


### of caring for all that we see around us, as my 17


### faith calls me to. It can be hard to imagi ne 18


### even the lives of people in Africa or Asia or 19


### other places who imagine their lives and see them 20


### being affected and dying because of climate 21


### change. It can be kind of hard for us to imagine 22

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### famine and flooding coming at such a rate like 1



### this. 2



### But so, t hen I think, you know, what we 3


### can do is imagine, you know, let's say a father 4


### in Colorado who, as a wildfire approaches his 5



### home , is spraying down his roof with water to try 6


### to hope that the flames, these enormous flames, 7


### don't catch on his roof. Or imag ine a mother 8


### trying to protect her kids from the rising floods 9


### in coastal areas throughout the United States. 10


### Maybe we can imagine farmers watching 11


### their crops and their livelihoods dry up in 12


### California right now, or in other places in the 13



### U.S. I can ima gine this happening to my brother 14



### Tim on the farm in Minnesota, on the lands that I 15


### grew up. And I think, I just pray that we all 16


### have the imagination to see the moral neces sity 17


### to act on climate change. 18


### Thank you very much for your work. 19



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 20


### Okay. Our next two speakers are Max 21



### Lander and Ben Droz. 22

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### (Pause.) 1



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: No Ben? Okay. 2



### Are you Max? 3


### MR. LANDER: Hello. I'm good. Thank 4



### you. 5



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Okay. 6


### MR. LANDER: My name is Max Lander. 7



### That's L

- a
- n
- d

- e
- r. I'm an energy researcher at 8



### the World Watch Institute, which is a non

- for

9


### profit environmental research group based here in 10



### D.C. 11


### The modern industrial world owes great 12


### tribute to coal, which gave birth to the 13


### processes and technologies that hav e shaped 14


### humanity into the twenty

- first century. But its 15


### great contribution has come and gone, and has now 16


### been replaced with more sophisticated energies 17


### that have accompanied our progression. 18


### With the emergency of mature and 19


### affordable renewable energy technologies, we now 20


### have the opportunity to move away from our most 21


### inferior energy source. With the technical 22

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### capabilities and expertise to now use local wind, 1


### water, and solar resources to deliver stable, yet 2


### flexible, power supplies, we are now ready to 3


### implement such calculated regulations to 4


### transition our energy sector away from coal. 5


### Establishing a standard for emissions in 6


### the power sector is a momentous step in 7


### establishing the domestic framework to combat 8


### climate change and help transition Amer ica to 9


### become a green energy leader. 10


### Yes, this ruling will hurt jobs and 11


### future coal business. But this is the price of 12


### progress. Moving from industry

- heavy coal to 13


### cleaner technologies that can be integrated into 14


### our local communities without ecologica l 15


### consequences is a piece of the new narrative in 16


### which we as a society are making made

-- will be 17


### made multifold in public prosperity and 18


### sustainable jobs. 19


### Regulating coal

- plant emissions will 20


### direct the market to energy sources that are 21



### healthier and mo re responsible, as well as those 22

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### that are already technologically available. 1


### I applaud your initiative, and wish the 2


### EPA confidence in taking action to do what is 3


### right for America. Thank you. 4



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 5



### Are you Ben? 6



### MR. DROZ: Yes , I am. I apologize. 7



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Great. Hi, Ben. 8


### That's okay. 9


### MR. DROZ: I did not actually have a 10


### chance to print out my testimony today. But 11


### thank you so much for having me share my 12


### experience and my time. 13



### So, I think that the coal emissio ns 14


### standards are very important. You know, I do 15


### advocacy on Capitol Hill. And, you know, 16


### Congressman Waxman had the Cap

- and

- Trade Bill, 17


### which failed, and it's so important because I 18


### believe that climate change is

-- there's a lot 19



### of evidence for the fact that it may exist. And 20


### I think that we really need to be moving forward 21


### in the right direction here. 22

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### As far as if this will kill jobs, I think 1



### that that is not the case, because I think that 2


### there are innovations that will just shift those 3


### jobs to other places, even within coal plants. 4


### I actually have a white paper that I can 5


### submit to the record that has just been released 6



### about co

- firing coal plant

-- coal

- fired plants 7


### with biomass. There is a way to do this where 8


### you can actually use Appalachian coa l, which is 9


### high sulfur and uses

-- it emits a lot of carbon, 10


### but you can actually put biomass in there and 11


### they have these new ways of doing it. So I'm 12


### happy to do that. 13


### That study actually uses industrial hemp 14


### biomass, which I also think is something t hat 15


### should be considered. I really think that 16


### everything should be on the table. 17


### I applaud the courageous moves that 18


### President Obama is making towards curbing the 19


### effects of climate change. And clearly, coal 20


### plants, coal

- fired plants are just huge 21


### pollu ters, massive polluters. And I know that, 22

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### you know, if we don't do it, China is going to do 1


### it or, you know, something like that. But I 2


### think that we really can be the leaders. It's 3


### going to take innovation. 4


### And we can get a lot more energy out of 5



### the same coal if we just start putting 6


### regulations in place. So, thank you so much. I 7



### don ' t know how much time I have. But thank you. 8



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 9


### MR. DROZ: And my name is Ben Droz. I 10


### live in Washington, D.C. I came here to work 11



### withi n advocacy, directly working within Congress 12


### to try to level the playing field, because it is 13


### not only overwhelming proof of climate change, 14


### which is very serious, it's a very serious 15


### problem, but also there's also very evidenced 16


### about the type of money th at's in politics to 17


### sway the scales in one way or another. 18


### And so that's why I applaud your efforts 19


### and thank you very much for your consideration 20


### and implementation of these regulations. 21



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 22

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### MR. LANDER: Hear, hear. 1



### (Pause.) 2



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: All right. Our next 3


### two speakers are Lavona Grow and Julie Hantman. 4



### (Pause.) 5



### MS. GROW : Who did you just call? 6



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: I just called Lavona 7


### Grow and Julie Hantman. Okay. 8


### You can take your time; it's fine. 9



### MS. GROW: Good evening. 10



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Are you ready? You 11


### can go ahead and start. 12



### MS. GROW: I am. 13



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Okay. 14


### MS. GROW: Thank you. My name is Lavona 15


### Grow. And I am from Arlington, Virginia. And 16



### I'm a Unitarian Universalist. Our faith 17



### tradition is somewhat like, kind of like the Ten 18


### Commandments, but they're principles that guide 19


### us. And our seventh principle affirms our 20


### respect for the interdependent web of all 21


### existence, of which we are a part. 22

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### I'm the Co

- Chair of the Unitarian 1



### Univ ersalists for Social Justice in the National 2


### Capital Region. And in recent years, we've 3


### adopted climate change as one of our priority 4


### issues. We believe we have a moral obligation to 5


### speak out and address the causes of climate 6


### change, including greenhous e gas emissions from 7


### power plants. 8


### I urge the EPA to adopt strong carbon 9


### pollution standards for new electric

- utility

10


### generating power plants. And as the President 11


### has directed EPA, to work expeditiously to 12


### complete carbon pollution standards, it will he lp 13


### to address public health issues. 14


### And I wanted to just share some of my 15


### experiences. I've been to New Orleans four time s 16



### post

- Katrina as a volunteer and have witnessed 17


### the devastating effects of extreme weather on the 18



### most vulnerable. And I was back m ost recently in 19



### June. Communities in the lower Ninth Ward are 20


### still suffering, and so many residents have never 21



### returned. And I fear that severe weather events 22

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### like this will increase. 1


### In 2012, my husband and I went to Glacier 2



### National Park and Yellowst one National Park. At 3


### Glacier, we learned from a guide that, at his 4


### first training session in 2008, that at the 5


### current rate of glaciers would be gone around 6


### 2024. Just a year later, as his updated 7


### training, guides were told that the glaciers will 8



### be gon e in less than eight years, by about 2016. 9



### An 80

- year
- old ranger, who has lived in 10


### the area his entire life, said so simply, "Of 11


### course, there is always global climate change. 12


### But we're not supposed to see it during our 13



### lifetime." No, it should be hundr eds of years, 14


### not eight to ten years. 15


### At Yellowstone, we saw the devastating 16


### effects of the mountain pine beetles. Slightly 17


### warmer temperatures have allowed them to complete 18


### their life cycle in just one year instead of two. 19


### Temperatures are not cold eno ugh to keep them in 20



### check. 21


### The beetle is devastating the high

22

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### elevation white park pine, a critical food source 1


### for the grizzly bears there, killing off acres of 2


### lodgepole and Ponderosa pine forests, which are 3



### containers of carbon, has turned them into 4



### so urces of atmospheric carbon as the trees die 5


### prematurely and often burn off in more frequent 6



### forest fires. We saw hundreds and hundreds of 7


### burned and dying forests. 8


### My husband has asthma. And in EPA's own 9


### study, the 2009 Endangerment Findings, the repor t 10


### has outlined the many health hazards associated 11


### with particulate matter and the likely increases 12


### in cases of asthma. And we need strong 13


### protections for the most vulnerable. 14



### Based on what I've learned, I believe 15


### these rules could provide the regulatory 16


### certainty also needed to incentivize research, 17


### development, and investment in new technology to 18


### capture and store CO2 emissions. This will 19


### create needed new jobs as the inevitable shift 20


### from coal to natural gas continues. 21



### It's hard in an environment wher e 22

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### corporations are now people, money equals speech, 1


### for average people to feel heard. I thank you 2


### for the opportunity to be heard and urge the EPA 3


### not to be overly influenced by corporations' 4



### short

- term world view over the long

- term needs of 5


### real people a nd our earth. 6


### We need to keep moving forward and make 7


### changes wherever and whenever we can. These 8


### regulations are the right thing to do now. Thank 9



### you. 10



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 11


### MS. HANTMAN: Good evening. My name is 12


### Julie Hantman, and I'm a rep resentative of a 13


### national organization called Climate Parents. 14


### Our Director, Lisa Hoyos, is based in California. 15


### She asked me to send her regrets that she could 16


### not participate. She also asked me to send her a 17



### few inches of rain. 18


### Only a year after it w as founded, Climate 19



### Parents has mobilized tens of thousands of moms, 20


### dads, and grandparents to take organized action 21


### in support of bold climate solutions. We're 22

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### doing so for the sake of our kids. 1


### Climate Parents' speed of growth, plus 2


### the strength in num bers from our allies at 3


### organizations like Moms Clean Air Force and Moms 4


### Rising, who you've probably seen today, 5


### demonstrates that climate change and clean energy 6


### have become top issues for parents and families. 7


### Climate Parents calls for a rapid scale

8



### up of renewable kid

- safe climate

- safe energy that 9


### doesn't fuel climate change or cause respiratory 10



### illness. 11


### We are calling on EPA to craft a carbon 12


### pollution standard that is strong enough to 13


### ensure that newly built plants do not fill our 14


### air with any more d angerous carbon pollution, 15


### regardless of whether it's called "clean coal," 16


### whether it's natural gas or anything else. 17


### We are all witnessing or experiencing 18


### crippling drought in the West, unusual warming in 19



### Alaska, extreme cold here in the East, and the 20



### lo ss of homes and livelihoods. Yet, human

- caused 21


### climate change is just getting started. It is 22

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### our kids and youth around the world who will 1


### confront the projected ever

- worsening of global 2


### conditions, from severe storm impacts to ocean 3



### acidification, to foo d and water scarcity. 4


### We have to do everything within our power 5


### to limit carbon pollution, and we must act fast. 6


### EPA must stand up to the coal and gas industries 7


### that will spend millions of dollars pushing for a 8


### weaker standard and slowed implementation. 9


### EPA also should keep in mind that 10


### investments in renewable energy yield significant 11


### job opportunities in the clean energy economy, 12


### and these are the jobs that we want our kids to 13


### grow up to take. 14


### Climate Parents is demanding a clean 15


### energy future for ou r kids, including a move 16


### toward 100 percent clean energy. The road to 17


### that future requires that the EPA place 18


### aggressive carbon restrictions on newly built 19


### power plants. 20


### More than 5,000 parents, grandparents, 21



### and other members of Climate Parents have wri tten 22

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### comments in support of stringent carbon pollution 1


### limits for new power plants. I am pleased to 2


### have submitted those comments to your colleague 3


### just outside the door. 4


### Thank you in advance for hearing the 5


### comments of our members and reading them furth er. 6


### They urge you to take bold action on behalf of 7


### our kids and communities. Thank you. 8



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 9



### (Pause.) 10



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Our next two speakers 11



### are Fernando Cazares and T. J. Mathews. 12


### MR. CAZARES: Good evening. And thank 13



### y ou for the opportunity to share a couple of 14


### thoughts with you. Buenos noc h es. 15


### (The Witness spoke briefly in Spanish.) 16



### MR. CAZARES: I am here today as a member 17


### of the diverse Latino community in the United 18


### States to support the EPA in regulating carbon 19


### pollution for new power plants, and in the future 20


### from existing power plants, with the strongest 21


### possible standards. 22

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### Carbon pollution has disproportionate 1


### negative impacts on Latino and under

- served 2



### communities, and is the fastest

- growing 3


### population in th e country. Our voices on this 4



### issue must be heard. 5


### My name is Fernando, and I represent 6



### Voces Verdes, which is a national coalition of 35 7


### Latino leaders from business, labor, public 8


### health, and community sectors who are advocating 9


### action on climate chang e and the development of 10


### clean energy. 11


### Since 2009, Voces has developed a diverse 12


### network of environmental justice, medical, youth 13


### and elderly, and economic development 14


### organizations who are working to make their areas 15


### more environmentally sustainable. 16



### We work to empower our leaders to tell 17


### their own story of fighting against climate 18


### change and helping families reap the benefits of 19


### clean energy while cutting their carbon 20


### footprint. This is why we are grateful. One of 21


### our leaders will be here later today, it's a 22

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### business owner. His name is Edwin Luevanos. He 1


### will be presenting to you the business case and 2



### what he does. 3


### What I want to share with you tonight is 4


### the Latino community overwhelmingly supports your 5


### actions to finally put limits on carbon pollu tion 6


### from power plants. This past December, Voces 7



### Verdes and the Natural Resources Defense Council 8


### commissioned a national survey of 800 Latinos by 9


### a group, a company called Latino Decisions. 10


### Allow me to point a couple of results 11


### that are pretty resoundi ng. Nationally, nine in 12


### ten Latinos want the government to take 13


### affirmative action, decisive action against the 14


### dangers of global warming and climate change. Of 15


### those, 68 of those who identify themselves as 16


### Republicans say that it is important to take th is 17



### action. 18


### Nationally, 86 percent of Latinos want to 19


### set limits on carbon pollution for power plants. 20


### Of those, 71 percent are Democrats, 44 percent 21


### are Republicans, and 63 percent of Independents 22

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### strongly supported this action. The support, you 1



### know, s tays all along income levels as well. 2


### Hispanics are the largest minority ethnic 3


### group in our country. Currently, there are 53 4


### million Hispanics, 17 percent of the population. 5


### In the next 50 years, the U.S. Census predicts 6



### that we will reach 129 million, representing 31 7


### percent of the total U.S. population. 8


### The outcome of the policy and regulatory 9


### debates and processes you are engaging in will 10


### directly impact the public health and the 11


### possibilities for our children and grandchildren. 12


### We have a proud his tory of fighting against dirty 13


### power plants in communities like Chicago 's 14


### predominantly Latino communities. And also, 15


### fighting against landfills and other toxic land 16


### uses in Los Angeles, to name a couple. 17


### But we also understand that the fight 18


### against dir ty energy sources, dirty energy 19


### sources must be fought in the legislative and 20


### regulatory arenas, which is why we are here. 21



### We understand the effects of climate 22

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### change go beyond our immediate communities and 1


### borders. We are strongly concerned about the 2



### im pacts of Super

- storm Sandy along the New York 3


### and New Jersey coast, the wildfires that have hit 4


### California and the Southwest, and the stronger 5


### hurricanes and tropical storms that are predicted 6



### to hit the Atlantic coast, as well as Central and 7



### South America

. 8


### Finally, I want to cl ose with an 9


### important piece, an important message from our 10


### survey results. For the Latino community, the 11


### most credible messengers in the climate change 12



### conversations are scientists, doctors, 13


### environmental organizations, and you. T hey are 14


### trusting the EPA and our federal and state 15


### agencies to exercise the authority and the duty 16


### to protect us from the effects of pollution from 17


### fossil fuels and the climate change that it 18



### drives, too. 19


### I am here today to let you know that a 20


### strong and growing national coalition of Latino 21


### leaders stands behind you and are ready to 22

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### support the final standards for new power plants, 1


### and we ask you to move decisively to establish 2



### the same lim its for existing power plants. 3


### Thank you very much. 4



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 5



### MR. MATHEWS: Hello. Thanks for this 6


### opportunity tonight. My name is T. J. Mathews. 7


### I am 55 years old and a resident of Tacoma Park, 8


### Maryland. I work as a demographer for the 9



### Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 10


### although I'm n ot representing them this evening. 11



### I've lived in Illinois, California, 12


### Colorado, Florida, Maryland, as well as overseas. 13


### In 1979, I was a college student living in 14


### Durango, Colorado, and was given a chance to do a 15


### student tour of the Four Corners power p lant 16


### located just west of Farmington, New Mexico, on 17


### the Navajo Indian Reservation. 18


### This power plant first started burning 19


### coal and generating electricity in 1963. For 20


### several decades, it generated over 2,000 21


### megawatts of power, making it one of the larg est 22

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### in the nation. Recently, three of the five units 1


### on this power plant were shut down. 2


### The day I visited this power plant was 3


### one of the saddest days of my young life. I saw 4


### firsthand how ugly we had become. The connection 5


### between what I plugged in a t home and the air I 6



### breathed became much more real. I learned that 7


### the majority of the electricity that the plant 8


### created was pulled all the way to California, and 9


### that pollutants from the plant had been measured 10


### in snowfall as far away as 500 miles. 11



### Th at visit broke my heart. And I've told 12


### many people about my experience over the past 13



### three

- and

- a
- half decades. 14


### Interestingly, this power plant has been 15



### involved in two tax

- related Supreme Court 16


### decisions. The owners of this power plant have 17


### fought tooth and nail to resist taxes and 18


### environmental requirements. They are certainly 19


### not unique. Hopefully, they and others will not 20


### be taking the EPA to court over your upcoming 21



### actions. Please stand firm. 22

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### We know the facts of what burning coal 1



### does to the en vironment. We all know that global 2


### warming is altering our lives, and the path we 3



### are on will be unforgivable if we do not act. 4


### The lives of future generations depend on actions 5


### like this if they are to have a chance to have 6



### decent lives. 7


### You, my fellow federal employees, are in 8


### a great position to make a difference. These 9


### actions you take are indirectly carbon tax. This 10


### kind of economic pressure is needed on all fronts 11


### if we intend to mitigate global warming by 12


### reducing the cost

- effectiveness of carbo n as an 13



### energy source. 14


### I am thrilled you intend to create 15


### stricter pollution standards for power plants, 16


### such as these. I believe this action is beyond 17


### overdue. I am hopeful that you do not bend to 18


### the whims of high

- paid K Street lobbyists. It is 19



### a tra gedy that anyone opposes your intention to 20


### further restrict power plant emissions. I 21


### strongly believe it is patriotic and heroic that 22

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### you are doing so, and I am one citizen who is 1


### extremely proud of the EPA. Thanks. 2



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 3



### (Paus e.) 4



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: We have one more 5


### speaker for now, Sankar Sitaraman. 6


### MR. SITARAMAN: Hi. Good evening. My 7


### name is Sankar Sitaraman. I am a math professor 8


### at Howard University here in Washington, D.C. 9



### And I live in near Tacoma Park in the North west 10



### of D.C. I want to thank you for giving me the 11


### opportunity to testify here today. 12


### First of all, as a scientist, it really 13


### concerns me. I'm not speaking, you know, idly. 14


### I follow the news. I really study, you know, all 15



### the data that's out there. A nd I look at all 16


### sides of the debate. And I really feel that the 17


### fossil fuel industry has not presented a proper 18



### case. 19


### And not only that, they are distorting 20


### and misleading people. And it's for us 21


### scientists and federal employees to stand up to 22

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### this pro paganda and work to prevent carbon 1


### pollution from increasing. 2


### Also, I want to just make an analogy. I 3


### want to just press the urgency of this issue by 4


### pointing out that several years ago, when tobacco 5


### was causing cancer and lung cancer, and it was 6



### known, and it was being denied by the tobacco 7


### industry, the government stepped in. And even 8


### though many industries might have lost jobs at 9


### that time, and we had to impose some restrictions 10



### on them, we did take action. 11


### And I think this is a very similar 12



### situatio n. Carbon pollution and other greenhouse 13


### gases are really causing cancer for this planet. 14


### It's like the cancer for the organism of this 15


### planet. And it is our duty to try to stop it. 16


### And, you know, as a doctor will treat a patient, 17



### we have to think of t his planet as our patient 18



### and do what all we can to reduce the carbon 19


### pollution. 20


### And as somebody from India, I'm very 21


### cognizant of the effects of climate change on 22

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### India. And not only India, but also other 1


### countries, poor countries in Africa and 2


### especial ly in Oceania. I teach at Howard 3


### University. I meet with students from all parts 4


### of the world, especially Africa and the 5



### Caribbean. 6


### And I have also spoken with two ministers 7


### from Southern Africa who came here all the way 8


### from Africa just to speak to us to ask us to take 9


### action, take up to our government to try to 10


### reduce carbon pollution. 11


### And I am also very aware of all the 12


### drought and all problems that are taking place in 13


### India, and how it is urgent, especially with a 14


### country like India, whose populatio n of more than 15


### 1 billion depends on water sources and the steady 16


### source of rain. Any small disruption will cause 17


### tremendous hardship to billions of people. 18


### And finally, I'm also an avid outdoors 19


### person. I hike a lot in the Appalachian 20



### Mountains. I love West Virginia and the people 21


### around here. And there are good people. And I 22

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### feel really heartbroken that they're being misled 1


### and abused by the coal industry and the fossil 2


### fuel industry in general, and that the mountains 3


### and the streams are being laid t o waste by all 4



### th ese really unscrupulous actions on the part of 5


### the fossil fuel industry. 6


### They keep talking about jobs and, you 7



### know, all kinds of smokescreens to distort and 8


### confuse people. But the fact is, it is 9


### happening. It's happening right in fron t of our 10


### eyes. Even without the data, we can see what is 11


### going on. And the only way right now that we 12


### have is to put these new limits on these new 13


### power plants. And so I really implore you to 14



### take action and stand firm. 15


### Finally, they also say that it i s an 16


### engineering problem and we can engineer our way 17


### out of it. We can, you know, put ferrous oxide 18



### on the oceans or take sulfur out of the air, suck 19



### carbon dioxide out of the air, and all kinds of 20


### things. But it's not as simple as that. You 21



### know, we ca nnot play God. We cannot play with 22

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### nature. We can't engineer our way out of this 1


### problem. 2


### You know, if a tribe or a group of 3


### indigenous people lose their land or their 4


### livelihood or their livestock, it's not just the 5


### land or the food that is gone. It's also a way 6


### of life. And if a species of animals is 7


### destroyed, then, you know, you can't engineer it 8


### back to life. So these things cannot be 9


### engineered. It's not an engineering problem. 10


### So, I think that's all I have to say. 11



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank y ou very much. 12



### (Pause.) 13



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: We've got a couple of 14


### more speakers. But I think we need to wait just 15


### a couple of minutes for them to get in the room. 16


### So let's just take a five

- minute break, and we'll 17



### reconvene. 18


### (Whereupon, at 6:40 p.m., a brief recess 19


### was taken, to reconvene at 6:42 p.m.) 20



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: All right. Since I 21


### know we have two speakers in the room, let's go 22

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### ahead and get started with them. 1


### First of all, we've got Carl Glitzenstein 2



### and Jared Robinson. 3


### Gentlemen, just to summarize, we have a 4



### five

- minute timer. And when the light turns 5


### yellow, you have one minute left, okay? 6


### MR. GLITZENSTEIN: My name is Carl 7



### Glitzenstein, G

- l

- i

- t

- z
- e
- n
- s
- t

- e
- i

- n. 8


### I would first just like to thank 9



### President Obama for the Affordable Care A ct, 10


### because it's been personally extremely helpful to 11


### me. And I'm very grateful for that. And I think 12


### it's great for the current generation that he's 13


### gotten that through as a matter of law. 14


### But now he's got to look out for current 15


### generations, but more specifically, future 16


### generations, with climate change. And this is 17


### where his true legacy will be determined, on his 18


### action in climate change. And because of that, I 19


### wholeheartedly support the new regulations for 20


### carbon on new power plants. 21



### As President Obama said, there is no more 22

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### serious debate about

-- in the State of the 1



### Union, there's no more serious debate about 2


### climate change. The world is warming, and 97 3


### percent of scientists say it will continue to get 4


### worse and worse if we do nothing about it. 5


### It's already, as people have pointed out, 6


### deadly serious, with storms, droughts, and 7



### floods. The most recent horrendous event was in 8


### the Philippines, where many thousands of people 9


### died. So this is not really your typical 10



### environmental issue. This is a humanitarian 11



### issue, and is as moral a necessity to do 12


### something about as any that have ever existed. 13



### There are also future threats to food and 14


### water supply that will cause famine if we do 15


### nothing. And the United States, which is now a 16


### huge food producer , if we do nothing , will no 17


### longer be a food producer. 18


### So if we can only think of ourselves, and 19


### our children and our grandchildren, we should 20


### think of the impact that this will have on the 21


### United States. We will be in bad shape if we do 22

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### nothing about cl imate change in this country. 1


### And in addition, there are huge threats 2


### to biodiversity. There have already been 3


### beautiful species that have gone out of existence 4


### because of climate change. One, the golden toad, 5


### this extraordinarily beautiful animal, is n o 6


### longer on the planet because of climate change. 7



### So we must act. But the fact of the 8


### matter is there are still many people who don't 9


### believe in the existence of global warming. 10


### Because we're having a cold winter, people say 11


### there can't be global warmin g. 12



### So , I think the most important thing that 13


### President Obama can do is to use the bully pulpit 14


### to simply state the facts, get the facts out 15


### there, and let people know about the true threats 16


### that are being faced because of climate change. 17


### And then people will force action in government. 18


### Just saying it once in awhile is not good enough. 19


### He has to use the bully pulpit over and over 20


### again to make this a clear legacy issue for him. 21



### And the actions that could be taken on a 22

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### governmental level, it's necessary to have these 1



### new, these regulations on carbon for new power 2


### plants, but it's not sufficient. There must be 3


### regulation for existing power plants. There 4


### should be no consideration of allowing the 5


### Keystone Pipeline to be built, because we have to 6


### keep oil in the ground, not keep on opening up 7


### new sources of oil, because that's the reason why 8


### we have the climate change s

. 9



### So even if tar sands was not worse as a 10



### source of oil and other sources of oil, it must 11


### be kept in the ground. We must be funding 12



### altern atives. And also symbolically, we must not 13


### say that we can act as business as usual. You 14


### cannot have a bully pulpit and say that this is a 15


### huge issue, but on the other hand say we're just 16


### going to go right on exploiting oil resources. 17



### And that's true wi th natural gas as well. 18


### Natural gas is not a bridg e. Natural gas is a 19



### carbon. I t might not be quite as carbon 20


### intensive, but it produces methane in the 21


### production process. Methane is a terrible 22

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### climate

- change product. In fact, it's worse in 1



### the short run than carbon. 2


### So saying that we're going to go to 3


### natural gas and oil and things like that, this is 4



### not sufficient. This cannot be a

-- if you want 5


### this to be a legacy issue, you cannot fool the 6


### people on this issue. You have to do the truly 7



### correct thing. And I think you probably know 8



### what that is. 9


### So I urge you to use the bully pulpit to 10


### make people understand the threat to their 11


### children and grandchildren. And the people will 12


### force action to transition to clean energy and to 13



### create

-- and just on a side note, jobs will be 14


### created in this transition. And it might be a 15



### win

- win situation in all possible ways. So I 16


### urge that to be done. 17



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you very much. 18


### MR. ROBINSON: Hi. My name is Jared 19


### Robinson. And I wasn't planning on testifying 20


### today, but as I watched my colleagues and friends 21


### talk about the places and people that they loved 22

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### and cared about and the importance of this issue, 1


### I was drawn to testifying. So I'll be speaking a 2



### bit off the cuff. 3


### But generally, I very m uch support strong 4



### standards for new

- source
-- for carbon pollution 5


### standards for new sources. I agree that alone 6


### they are not sufficient to tackling the challenge 7


### of climate change. It's one step in the right 8



### direction. 9


### But they must be stronger, they need to 10


### be more ambitious, and they must take into 11


### account equity and must be just standards that 12


### protect our most vulnerable communities that are 13


### impacted by co

- pollutants of power plants, and 14


### also impacted by the impacts of climate change 15


### more broadly in terms of, you know, rising sea 16


### levels and the more extreme weather and droughts 17


### and wildfires that we see coming out of climate 18



### change. 19


### I also speak

-- recently became a D.C. 20



### resident, last week, in fact. But I come from 21



### the State of California and come here in part 22

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### because of my passion for these issues. As a 1


### Californian, climate change is very real to us. 2


### You know, in 2013, we faced our driest year on 3


### record. And as we move into 2014 this year, much 4


### of the state is in an extreme drought and has 5



### reac hed the most extreme level of drought that's 6


### available on the system that we have. 7


### As important as agriculture is in 8



### California , is to the economy, this has huge 9


### economic impacts for our state, but also for the 10



### country , y ou know, for our food resources fo r the 11


### country and for the world. I'm also from Sonoma 12


### County, which is the wine industry, and very much 13


### impacted by climate change and the shift in the 14


### temperature for the grapes and that sort of 15


### thing. 16


### My background is more in wildlife, 17


### biology, and con servation. And, you know, at the 18


### end of every class there are discussions of the 19


### impacts of climate change and how it's a 20


### multiplier effect on all the other pressures that 21


### human development has put on species. 22

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### Currently, we see in wildlife 1


### populations, you know, extinction levels that put 2


### us on pace with mass extinctions that have 3


### happened throughout the history of earth. And as 4



### I've come into this issue more and continued to 5


### see how not only are we wiping out every other 6


### species on this planet, but cli mate change will 7


### have huge impacts for, you know, human health and 8


### public health as well. Many of these issues have 9


### been mentioned throughout the testimony today. 10


### But for those reasons, for the public 11


### health impacts, for the injustice of America's 12


### pollut ion contaminating and killing off our

-- 13


### you know, our colleagues and family around the 14


### world, and also other species around the world, I 15



### urge stronger p ollution standards for carbon. 16


### So, thank you. 17



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 18


### Okay. Our next two sp eakers are Jose 19


### Aristamuno (phonetic) and Bradley Green. 20



### (Pause.) 21



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Are you Mr. Green? 22

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### MR. GREEN: I'm Bradley Green. 1



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Is Mr. Aristamuno 2


### here? No? No? Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. 3


### All right. Very well. Then, Mr. Gree n. 4


### MR. GREEN: Thank you for this 5


### opportunity to speak. I don ' t have prepared 6


### remarks, so I'll keep it short and brief. I 7


### regard global warming as the greatest 8


### environmental threat to our planet probably ever 9


### and, clearly, something we need to address. 10


### Ideally, a tax on greenhouse gas 11


### emissions would be probably the most efficient 12


### way to proceed. A tax would be revenue neutral 13


### and probably would also cause the least 14


### disruption if we were to implement that kind of a 15



### solution. 16


### But that's not politically realistic in 17


### this environment. So I think we're looking at 18


### what is politically possible, the rule that 19


### you're proposing. 20


### I would like to see it go further than it 21


### does. Ideally, it would close down over time all 22

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### coal

- burning plants. But, so I would ur ge it to 1


### be strengthened, to have that effect. But 2


### clearly, some action is needed. And so an 3


### aggressive rule is the best chance we have, and I 4


### urge you to move forward with it. Thank you. 5



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you very much. 6



### I think that's all the speakers we have, 7


### at least for now. So let's go ahead and take a 8


### break until someone else would like to speak. 9


### If there's anyone here that would like to 10


### speak, we certainly would love to hear from you. 11


### (Whereupon, at 6:53 p.m., a recess was 12



### taken, to r econvene at 7:09 p.m.) 13



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: All right. We've got 14


### one more speaker, Edwin Luevanos. 15



### MR. LUEVANOS: Good evening. 16



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Good evening. 17



### MR. LUEVANOS: Start? Should I

-- 18



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: It would help the 19



### Court Reporter if you spell your name, and then 20


### you can go ahead and start. 21


### MR. LUEVANOS: Excellent. My name is 22

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 11 00 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202

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### Edwin Luevanos, and my name is spelled E

- d

- w
- i

- n. 1



### Luevanos is L

- u - e
- v - a
- n
- o
- s. 2


### May I get started? 3



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Go right ahead. 4



### MR. LUEVANOS: Exc ellent. Well, thank 5


### you very much for the opportunity, and again, 6


### good evening. 7


### My name is Edwin Luevanos. I work for 8


### Citizen Energy LLC. Citizen Energy is a growing 9


### energy consulting startup in Washington, D.C., 10


### and in Florida. We mainly work on deli vering 11



### energy
- saving solutions for commercial buildings 12


### and are currently expanding to other states 13


### around the country. 14


### I started Citizen Energy after I left the 15


### Department of Energy after working there for 16


### about five years. So there was pretty good 17



### trai ning that I received in the Federal 18


### Government, particularly, again, in the area of 19



### energy. 20



### As a father of a five

- year
- old girl, I 21



### couldn ' t ask for a better job. I'm proud to work 22

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### for a company that has strong beliefs in the 1



### environment, and a sustainabl e company. I'm 2


### proud to be part of what is going to hopefully 3


### build the future for her and generations after. 4


### Citizen Energy particularly has helped 5


### building owners improve building efficiency and 6



### cut their carbon footprint by about 30 percent. 7



### That's o ur standard for all of our projects. And 8


### now we've worked on close to about 100 projects 9


### in the past two years, and these are buildings 10



### between 50

- and 200,000

- square
- foot buildings. 11


### We mainly work on the low

- hanging fruit, 12


### as they call it, lighting upgr ades. You know, 13


### LED is very popular right now, and many building 14


### owners are starting to gravitate to that. And 15


### our job has been made easier by the increased 16



### demand. 17


### We're looking to do more. Our team has 18


### been driven to look at other challenges of what 19


### business can do to, again, help and create this 20


### new economy and reduce carbon emissions. So we 21


### look to solar and development opportunities for 22

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### solar. As you know, solar has the highest 1


### potential than any renewable. I think there's a 2



### stat out there that it can reduce carbon 3


### emissions by about 25 percent by 2030. 4


### So, we've looked at development of 5


### distributed solar, particularly looking at 6


### communities that are currently unserved

-- not 7


### underserved, but unserved. And what I mean by 8



### that is folks like rent ers, who currently can't 9


### install solar panels in the properties that they 10


### lease, because they don't own them. 11


### So we're looking to build community solar 12


### facilities in metropolitan areas, so central, you 13


### know, almost solar guardians that renters and 14



### other u nserved communities can access. They can 15


### access those solar benefits. So they can also 16


### participate and accelerate, hopefully, our 17


### transition to renewable energy and more 18



### distributed solar. 19


### We're doing our part from the private 20


### sector end, and we applaud the effort of the EPA 21


### to finally, you know, do their part and limit 22

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### carbon pollution from power plants, which of 1


### course, until now, are free to spill uncontrolled 2



### amounts of carbon dioxide into the air we breathe 3


### every day. 4


### These regulations couldn't com e any 5



### sooner. The science i s settled, as we know, and 6


### it's been vetted by many countries around the 7



### world now and accepted. We know that human 8


### activity is causing global warming and climate 9



### change. 10


### We hope that the utility companies will 11



### look at these r egulations as an opportunity and 12


### not as a burden. It is an opportunity, indeed, 13


### to look towards renewable energy as a serious 14


### part of their portfolio and strategy to reduce 15


### carbon emissions. This is, again, good for the 16



### environment, health, and our econo my. 17


### And I know it will give a real incentive 18


### for entrepreneurs just like me to start more 19


### companies, so we can continue to do our part to 20



### steer our nation to cleaner, sustainable, and 21


### safer sources of energy. 22

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### We're counting on the EPA to establish 1



### clear and strong standards for carbon emissions 2


### from new power plants, and move forward towards 3


### existing power plants, for the sake, again, of 4


### our new economy and for future generations to 5


### come, including my daughter. Thanks. 6



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 7



### (P ause.) 8



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: It looks like we have 9


### another speaker, Adam Hasz. 10



### Hi. Great. 11



### (Pause.) 12



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Mr. Hasz, you have 13



### five minutes. There's a timer over here. It 14


### will be green for the first four minutes. When 15


### it turns yellow, you' ve got one more minute left. 16


### And when it's red, it's time to wrap it up. 17


### Okay? 18


### MR. HASZ: Great. Thank you. 19



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: And if you wouldn ' t 20


### mind stating and spelling your name, that will 21


### help out our Court Reporter. 22

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### MR. HASZ: Great. Standin g, you said? 1



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: No, no. Stating and 2


### spelling your name. 3


### MR. HASZ: Oh, stating. Great. All 4


### right. My name is Adam Hasz, A

- d

- a
- m H

- a
- s
- z. 5


### And I'm 24 years old. I'm the Campaign Strategy 6


### Coordinator for Sustain Us, a youth climate 7



### ad vocacy group that empowers young people to 8


### advance sustainable development. 9


### I graduated from Washington University in 10


### St. Louis in 2012 with a degree in environmental 11


### studies. I have been politically active on 12


### climate issues for the past five years. 13



### I b elieve that climate change is the 14


### defining challenge of this century. For my 15


### generation, for the generations that follow, the 16


### energy choices that we make over the next few 17



### decades will decide whether we have a future of 18


### sustainable prosperity or ecologica l collapse. 19


### We have the creativity and the 20


### technological capacity needed to rapidly de

21



### carbonize and move to a fossil

- fuel

- free world. 22

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### But without the political courage from our 1


### leaders and regulators, this transition will not 2


### happen quickly enough to av oid the worst impacts 3


### of climate change. 4


### From the standpoint of climate science 5


### and intergenerational justice, these proposed 6


### carbon pollution standards for new power plants 7


### are far too weak. While I applaud the EPA for 8


### requiring emission limits that wil l effectively 9


### exclude new coal power, it is unacceptable to 10


### allow further expansion of natural gas 11


### electricity generation without any requirement to 12


### capture carbon emissions. 13


### We need far stronger emission limits if 14


### we are to rapidly reduce climate change pollution 15


### on a pathway consistent with stabilizing total 16


### warming at two degrees Celsius. 17


### I'm now going to read a short passage 18



### from Dr. James Hansen's most recent scientific 19


### publication: Assessing Dangerous Climate Change: 20


### Required reduction of carbon e missions to protect 21


### young people, future generations, and nature. 22

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### Dr. Hansen is an internationally renowned climate 1



### scientist and directed the Goddard Institute of 2


### Space Studies before his retirement from NASA 3


### last year. Hansen's passage highlights the s tark 4


### choice we face in our energy future between the 5


### catastrophic consequences that will result if we 6



### continue to extract and burn fossil fuels. 7


### And this passage in the paper is called 8


### Energy and Carbon Pathways: A Fork in the Road. 9


### "At present, as the m ost easily extracted 10


### oil and coal reserves are being depleted, we 11


### stand at a fork in the road to our energy and 12


### carbon future. Will we now feed our energy needs 13


### by pursuing difficult

- to

- extract fossil fuels? 14


### Or will we pursue energy policies that phase o ut 15


### carbon emissions, moving on to the post

- fossil

16


### fuel era as rapidly as possible? 17


### "The task today is difficult. Emission 18


### reduction of 6 percent per year and 100 gigatons 19


### carbon storage in the biosphere and soils are 20


### needed to get back to CO2 levels of 3 50 parts per 21


### million, the approximately requirement to 22

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### restoring the planet's energy balance and 1


### stabilizing climate this century. 2


### "Such a pathway is exceedingly difficult 3


### to achieve, given the current widespread absence 4


### of policies to drive rapid movemen t to carbon

5


### free energies and the lifetime of energy 6


### infrastructure in place. 7


### "Yet we suggest that a pathway is still 8


### conceivable that would restore planetary energy 9


### balance on a century time scale. That path 10


### requires policies that spur technology 11



### develo pment and provide economic incentives for 12


### consumers and businesses such that social tipping 13


### points are reached where consumers move rapidly 14


### to energy conservation and low

- carbon energies. 15


### "This pathway would need to be taken 16


### soon, as the magnitude of such carbon extraction 17


### is likely limited and thus not a solution to 18



### unfettered fossil

- fuel use. 19


### "The alternative pathway, which the world 20



### seems to be on, is continued extraction of all 21


### fossil fuels, including development of 22

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### unconventional fossil fuels such as tar sands, 1


### tar shale, hydrofracking to extract oil and gas, 2


### exploitation of methane hydrates. If that path, 3


### with a 2 percent per year of growth, continues 4


### for 20 years and then is followed by a 3 percent 5



### reduction of emissions from 2033 to 2150, we find 6



### that fossil

- fuel emissions in 2150 would total 7


### 1,022 gigatons of carbon. 8



### "Extraction of the excess CO2 from the 9


### air in that case would be very expensive and 10


### perhaps implausible, and the warming of the ocean 11


### resulting climate impacts would be practically 12



### i rreversible. 13


### "One implication is the likelihood of 14


### intergenerational effects, with young people in 15


### future generations inheriting a situation in 16


### which grave consequences are assured, practically 17


### out of their control, but not of their own doing. 18


### The possib ility of such intergenerational 19


### injustice is not remote. It is at our doorstep 20



### now. 21


### "We have a planetary climate crisis that 22

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### requires urgent change to our energy and carbon 1


### pathway to avoid dangerous consequences for young 2


### people and other life on earth. The world must 3


### move rapidly to carbon

- free energies and energy 4


### efficiency, leaving most remaining fossil fuels 5


### in the ground if clim ate is to be kept close to 6



### the H ol ocen e range and climate disasters 7



### averted." 8


### That's the end of the passage from Dr. 9



### Hans en's essay that I chose to share. I'm not 10


### going to have time to finish the remaining 11



### remarks. I will submit them via written 12


### testimony. 13


### But I'd just like to say that with Dr. 14


### Hansen's paper, there's 130 gigatons of carbon 15



### that is allowed in our carbon b udget. If we 16



### choose to continue to burn fossil fuels at the 17


### rate we're going, we will use that up in about 13 18



### years. 19


### Therefore, I would have to say that the 20


### carbon standards need to be much stronger, such 21


### that we can more rapidly move to low

- carbon 22

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### energ y or no
- carbon energy for all future 1


### electricity generation. 2


### I urge everyone present here to consider 3


### how best we can work to build the political will 4


### needed to enact the strident climate policies 5



### that we need to ensure a sustainable and 6


### prosperous future for my generations and all of 7


### the generations that follow. Thank you. 8



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thank you. 9


### Okay. Thank you. All right. Well, I 10


### think we will recess the hearing unless we have 11


### another speaker. So we'll be here until eight 12



### o'clock. 13



### (Whereu pon, at 7:22 p.m., a recess was 14


### taken, to reconvene at 7:56 p.m.) 15



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Are you Mr. Collins? 16


### MR. COLLINS: Yes, I am, Phillip Collins. 17



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Hi. Let me just give 18


### you a quick rundown. You've got five minutes to 19


### speak. We ha ve a timer right over here. It will 20


### be green for four minutes, and then the light 21


### will turn yellow. You'll have one minute left. 22

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### And when the light turns red, it's time to wrap 1


### up. Okay? 2


### MR. COLLINS: Okay. Thank you. 3



### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: All right. And when 4


### you go ahead and get started, if you would spell 5


### your name, that would help the Court Reporter. 6


### MR. COLLINS: My name is Phillip, P

- h

- i

7



### l

- l

- i

- p, two L's, Collins, C

- o
- l

- l

- i

- n
- s, two L's 8


### again. I live in Washington, D.C. I'm an 9


### attorney, but I don't do environmental law. I'm 10


### mostly in the local courts like child abuse, 11


### neglect. 12


### I live here. I mostly travel by bicycle, 13


### and I mostly don't use much fossil fuels because 14



### I don ' t heat my apartment in the winter. It's 15


### about 40 degrees in there now. So, I try to do 16


### as much as I can to reduce my carbon footprint, 17


### personally. 18


### So I'm in favor of preserving the planet 19


### and not destroying all the carbon fuels that we 20



### have now. After all, when we do burn them, we 21


### actually destroy them. They're not there 22

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### anymore. It's not like the old Fritos 1


### commercial, "Eat all you want. We'll make more." 2


### Burn all you want, they're not making anymore. 3


### So that I think depletion is to the point 4


### of becoming difficult to find and get. It may 5


### not happen anytime really so on, next decade or 6



### two. 7


### But eventually, that's going to be an 8


### issue also, and we have to plan not just for our 9


### own generation, our own lives, but for future 10


### generations as well, both with depletion and with 11


### the changes to the climate and the environmental 12


### impacts of burning these fossil fuels, such as 13


### coal, which is the dirtiest and has many elements 14


### that could be harmful, such as mercury and 15



### arsenic, in it. 16


### So I fully support these standards. I am 17



### a member of the Sierra Club in the area. And I 18



### attend a lot of meetings, not just with the 19


### Sierra Club, but also with other groups. I have 20


### an environmental group of my own. I called it 21


### D.C. Environment Meetup. You pay them some 22

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- 3376436



### mone y, and they help you get a meet up. There are 1


### several different groups they set up in D.C., 2


### Virginia, and Maryland. There's about 800 3



### members total. But it's not dues

- paying whenever 4


### we're active. I just tell them about different 5


### events that are going on. 6


### So, I know with the new plants, if 7


### they're going to have new plants, the y ought to 8


### be very, very clean if they're going to have 9


### them. Because we have more new technologies than 10


### they had in some of these old plant days. I know 11


### President Obama, when he was speaking when he was 12


### first running for office, "Come on. If we can 13



### put a man on the moon, we can make clean coal." 14


### So you'd think it's not

-- it's six years 15



### after that, and there have been more done. But I 16


### haven't really seen in my

-- I look on the 17



### Internet a lot

-- anything that there really have 18



### been a lot of advances in totally eliminating 19


### carbon from being polluted into the atmosphere. 20



### The other elements such as sulfur, 21


### there's ways of getting that out. Hopefully, 22

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### mercury also could be removed. 1



### Perso nally, I would like to see us move 2


### more to renewables in every way, including the 3


### human body as a renewable. We are a power 4


### source. I bicycled across the country when I was 5


### in high school. I took a bus from Philadelphia 6


### the last day of school to visit a relative in Los 7


### Angeles. 8


### Then I bought a Schwinn bike in 1969 and 9


### bicycled up to Portland, Oregon, and then to the 10


### Boy Scout Jamboree on Lake Pend Oreille, Idaho, 11


### met a guy there. Together, the two of us had 12


### read the jamboree newspaper about a group that 13


### had bicycled out from Erie, Pennsylvania. So we 14



### both talked to th em. They put us in touch with 15


### each other. We were both from the Philadelphia 16


### area. We bicycled back together. He became a 17


### forest professor later. 18



### But

-- so that's interesting. I know 19


### that you can do things under your own power. And 20


### obviously, there' s ways we can reduce our use of 21


### the power. I mean, I've gone to a number of 22

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### programs where say, "Well, look. " Like the 1



### President Bush's science advisor, "Look. Don't 2


### you guys like turning out your lights and your 3


### big

- screen TV's and everything?" Well, 4


### personally, I don't. I don ' t watch much TV. I 5



### have a little

- screen computer. It's a laptop, so 6


### it doesn't take as much power. I don't have the 7


### lights on all that much. 8


### I like public places. I mean, after all, 9


### if your house is 40 degrees, you may not want to 10



### be there all the time. But

-- and so I would say 11


### that I really do support your proposed standards 12


### to reduce as much as possible with today's 13


### technology. 14



### And if there's any way to make, to leave 15



### the standards open for future technologies to be 16



### use d as they come in, for any new plants built 17


### then, or to have a say so that new plants are 18


### built with existing technology, that new 19


### technology could be added on, I would love to see 20



### that as well. 21


### Personally, I'd rather move totally off 22

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### the carbon fuels ent irely. Because carbon fuels 1


### are going to move off o f us. We're not going to 2


### have them forever. They're going to be gone. 3


### We'll have all these financing here, it's called 4


### sunk costs. Or it's just something that will be 5



### abandoned in the future after it becomes

-- a t 6


### some point, people don't seem to think about it, 7


### but eventually it's not going to become 8



### available. 9


### We live on a planet. We know how far 10


### around it is, about 25,000 miles. We have mostly 11


### things on the surface or down maybe a couple 12



### miles of f the surface. Th ere's only so much area 13



### there. 14


### The wells of Pennsylvania used to be the 15


### biggest oil

-- I'm sorry, l ooks like I'm over

-- 16



### oil state. A ll these wells are going for oil, 17


### and the mines for coal are going, they're played 18



### out after awhile. A nd eventually, the whole 19


### planet will be played out, and we'll have to do 20


### something else. It would be better for us to do 21


### it before we're forced to by nature. Thanks. 22

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### MS. CORTELYOU

- LEE: Thanks for coming, 1



### Mr. Collins. 2


### Any more? Well, that's all the sp eakers 3


### we've got tonight. And it's a little bit after 4


### eight, so I want to thank everyone for coming. 5



### And that's it. 6


### (Whereupon, at 8:03 p.m., the hearing was 7


### adjourned.) 8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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