### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy 529 14th Street, N.W. Suite 600 Washington, D.C. 20045

Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:07 a.m.

R eported by: Natasha Thomas, Capital Reporting Company

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FA CILITATOR 3 Ne il Eisner, Navigant Consulting 4 PA RTICIPANTS 5 Ka rim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 6 Re frigeration Institute (AHRI) 7 As hley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy 8 Ti mothy Ballo, Earthjustice 9 La ura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy 10 Je ff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning 11 Jo hn Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy 12 Ma ry Dane, Traulsen 13 Pa ul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc. 14 Ma rk Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products 15 Ge offrey Halley, SJI Consultants Inc. 16 Ch arles Hon, True Manufacturing 17 Ji ll Hootman, Trane 18 Jo hn Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc. 19 To m Johnson, Daikin McQuay 20 Je ff Kleiss, Lochinvar 21 Mi chael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC 22 Jo hn Mandyck, UTC Climate, Controls & Security

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) 2 PA RTICIPANTS (Continued) 3 Ka ren Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co. 4 Pe ter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development 5 Fr ank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc. 6 Ma ssoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc. 7 Mi chael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy 8 Ha rvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient 9 Ec onomy 10 Ro nald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation 11 Fr ank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 12 Re frigeration Institute (AHRI) 13 Lo uis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance 14 (N EEA) 15 Ph illip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products 16 Ru sty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing 17 Ro bert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation 18 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. EISNER: Ready to discuss your lists of 3 ad d-ons? Who wants to start? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need Rusty. We need 5 Ru sty. 6 MR. EISNER: All right. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: At least for HVAC, we do. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we -- 9 MR. JOHNSON: Let's do the December first. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He did not send it to me. 11 MR. JOHNSON: I thought he did. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: He sent the definition but 13 no t the list, not anything from last night. 14 MR. JOHNSON: This morning? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have anything. 16 MR. JOHNSON: All right. I thought he did. 17 MR. DOPPEL: I think the last one I saw, the 18 la st file, was one you -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have anything from 20 hi m this morning. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Do we want to resend the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 de finition or do we want to put this spreadsheet up 2 th ere? 3 MALE SPEAKER: I think there's too much 4 de tail there. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Okay. 6 MALE SPEAKER: I don't think the 7 sp readsheet, no. I think you want to go -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Let me just forward this. 9 MALE SPEAKER: At least summarize it and 10 th en -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Let's see. Ashley. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley.Armstrong@ee.doe.gov. 13 MR. WHITWELL: .ee? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley.Armstrong@ee.doe.gov. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I just forwarded that, 16 As hley. You should be good now. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. While we are waiting 18 fo r this to come on, we can start with water heating 19 an d boilers because the email I got last night was 20 ju st asking for DOE's definition of basic model 21 wi thout modification. Yes? Happiness? Happy to use 22 th at.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 MR. KLEISS: Were you copied on the email 2 fr om Frank Stanonik? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 4 MR. KLEISS: You're saying that that didn't 5

-- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm sorry? 7 MR. KLEISS: Okay. The definitions there 8 fo r commercial boiler and commercial water heater? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So it's DOE's basic 10 mo del definition. 11 MR. KLEISS: Right, which we agreed with. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So no discussion 13 ne eded? 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I 15 wa nted to make sure that I understand what DOE expects 16 to glean with this information. And when you were 17 ta lking yesterday about the refrigeration side, you 18 we re saying you had done a lot of research in the AHRI 19 di rectory and that all of the models have the same 20 ef ficiency. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 22 MR. MYERS: That is not the case in water

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 he aters and boilers. Some have it, but there are some 2 wh ere within a basic model group as applied by AHRI, 3 yo u could have a range of ten models and the 4 ef ficiency in that basic model group goes from a low 5 ef ficiency to a high efficiency. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is the same as 7 ev eryone else. And for HVAC and for refrigeration, it 8 is just that when they get down to the level of 9 li sting them in the directory themselves, not for the 10 pu rposes of grouping but when you actually list them, 11 th ey have a single efficiency value for the list. 12 MR. MYERS: Okay. Great. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what we are doing here is 14 de fining how you list things. So you would have a 15 si ngular rating associated with in your case a basic 16 mo del, in their case a basic model, but the definition 17 we are still working on. 18 MR. MYERS: Are you saying, then, that you 19 ag ree with the definition that Frank sent you last 20 ni ght? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is our definition, yes. 22 MR. MYERS: It is close, but it is not

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 ex act. 2 MR. WHITWELL: It is just tailored. 3 MR. MYERS: I would have to -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Minus the words like that, 5 it is pretty much identical. 6 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. I 7 ju st tailored it because in the specific of boilers, 8 yo u are measuring efficiency. So, rather than put 9 ef ficiency, energy consumption, blah blah blah -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, yes. 11 MR. STANONIK: -- I just tailored it. 12 Th at's all. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. That is what I was 14 sa ying. It is identical. I mean, you still have the 15 es sentially identical language. 16 MR. STANONIK: Right. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Okay. 18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. We 19 di d come up with a list of common features between our 20 di fferent categories that may have an effect on 21 ef ficiency, things like sometimes pumps are added to 22 wa ter heaters.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Sometimes they are not. 3 Th ere are high altitude models, which may have to be 4 de rated based on the elevation. So that is going to 5 af fect the efficiency somewhat. 6 Let's see. Some of the other things were 7 em issions, different venting options we would have, 8 fr eeze protection for outdoor units. If you looked at 9 th e system's efficiency, those electric resistance 10 he aters may have a minor impact. And then some 11 bo ilers have economizers similar to what we are 12 ta lking about with the HVAC license. So we have a 13 li st of those also that we may want to include as 14 op tional, but be, I guess -- how would you call that? 15 Ho w were you referring to that yesterday? Find it 16 ou tside of the -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, I think there is 18 a fine line between options that would be out of the 19 re alm of not showing up in the test procedure and then 20 op tions that are integrated into units that increase 21 th e efficiency that show up in the test procedure that 22 sh ould be reflected in the rating. So we are not

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 ge tting to this infinite list of everything that 2 af fects efficiency we are kicking out, but for 3 pr oducts that are highly customized, where there is, 4 yo u know, an infinite amount of options, is there a 5 mi ddle ground where, you know, the primary efficiency 6 dr ivers can be captured by the metric in the test 7 pr ocedure and we're not testing every single different 8 op tion and combination and listing, you know, a 9 tr illion models or that kind of thing? 10 I mean, you guys seem to -- I know there are 11 pe ople certifying today for you guys with industry. 12 So I am not saying that the existing scheme works 13 co mpletely, but it fits your industry better than it 14 ma y fit others. Okay. 15 MR. DOPPEL: It's operating in high 16 ef ficiency mode. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So is this air conditioner. 18 MR. SACHS: Is the source computer running 19 on battery and trying to conserve itself? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 21 Does the CRE team have something for me? 22 MR. SHEBIK: I mean, we are fine as far as

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 th e breakdown and basic model and certified individual 2 mo dels. I think we are okay at that point. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 4 MR. SHEBIK: Now, when we get to testing 5 bu rden and stuff like that, we will probably need to 6 ha sh some more stuff. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: In terms of what models can 8 be selected for verification purposes or what you have 9 as sessed? 10 MR. SHEBIK: If we move our stuff and defer 11 to , as I said, a higher tier in the basic model here, 12 wh ich you're going to have more models under one 13 en ergy efficiency number, as opposed to further 14 de fining it to the unique model, unique cooler energy 15 ma ybe; for example, if you have an open case, it could 16 be either T-8 fluorescent or LED lighting, my 17 un derstanding is under basic models, you put all of 18 th ose into one basic model and you would rate it a 19 hi gher efficiency or a higher energy consumption 20 le vel. 21 Now, if we want to further distribute 22 co mmerce, the different, the various levels of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 ef ficiency on this case are based on types of fan 2 mo tors and types of lighting. How much additional 3 te sting would be required? 4 MS. BARHYDT: Are you planning on using an 5 AE DM? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you just use the AEDM? 7 MR. SHEBIK: Well, we are using AEDM, but is 8 th at going to alter our tests? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then you have no change. 10 MR. SHEBIK: That was my question. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No change in testing. 12 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those additional models that 14 yo u disaggregated could be subject to verification 15 te sting but no additional testing for your part. 16 MR. SHEBIK: What I recertified to is with 17 th e verification testing for the Department. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good. 19 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Charlie, you? 20 MR. HON: That's fine. 21 MR. SHEBIK: Mary, do you have concerns? 22 Ok ay.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 MR. HON: That's my understanding. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Just for clarification, in 3 ca se for future reference, how do we go back and 4 ve rify that we won't have to do efficiency testing for 5 ho w to do models or have efficiency testing for Low 6 NO x models for certain markets? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by -- 8 MR. STANONIK: I don't know about your 9 pa rticulars, but most manufacturers, their Low NOx 10 mo dels are a different model number. 11 MR. STEPHENS: That's -- 12 MR. STANONIK: Well, if you want to claim 13 th e same locations, I guess you can. And if you want 14 to claim something different -- well, that is what a 15 wo rkable AEDM does for you. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. That is the AEDM. 17 MR. STANONIK: It simplifies this discussion. 18 MR. STEPHENS: What about water heater 19 mo dels with pumps included? 20 MR. STANONIK: The pump has never mattered 21 in a test procedure. 22 MR. STEPHENS: We are talking about

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 so mething in the federal regulations that would be 2 ov erseen in the -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it is not just having a 4 te st procedure; so, for example, if a pump is not 5 pi cked up in a test procedure, we're not just going to 6 pu ll and then test with the pump and say, "You don't 7 me et our standard." You know, we are going to follow 8 ou r test procedure. 9 MR. STANONIK: So I don't remember where it 10 wa s yesterday, but I think Ashley or, actually, Laura 11 sa id something about in accordance with the test 12 pr ocedure. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 14 MR. STANONIK: So everything has to be in 15 th e context of what the test procedure measures. 16 MR. STEPHENS: Right. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could advocate reopening 18 th e test procedures that measure that. Then your 19 ra ting would have to be reflected on the pump energy, 20 as would any verification test we do. But if it's not 21 re flected in the test procedure, we're not going to. 22 I mean, we are using the test procedure just like you.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 MR. STEPHENS: We are leaving it open-ended 2 so that if the test procedure changes, then that 3 be comes -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, if the test 5 pr ocedure changes such that things like these types of 6 th ings change, you guys should bring it up during the 7 ru le, not after the rule, not right before you should 8 ce rtify. Bring it up during the rule so we can 9 co nsider those changes and benefits of including the 10 me asures of additional consumption as well as the 11 in creased burden or the changes that that would have 12 in a practical world of things. 13 MR. RIVEST: You know, I can envision water 14 he aters that would require that the pump work for the 15 wa ter to be channeled. In that case, -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would probably -- 17 MR. RIVEST: -- you know, that imaging gets 18 co unted. Yesterday, we were talking about additional 19 fe atures on HVAC equipment where they are not part of 20 th e test procedure measurements. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, some of those -- 22 MR. RIVEST: But they are impacting the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 me asurements. So that's why we are having a 2 co nversation about those, but in your case, it sounds 3 li ke it's not measured and it's not impacting your 4 me asurement. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Well, that's just it. There 6 ha ve been some products in the market that have had 7 sm all circulator pumps to reach construction 8 st andards. Right? So in that case, it was required, 9 an d it was included in the efficiency measurements. 10 Th ere are other applications where the pump is added 11 on as a feature because the guy in the field is going 12 to need it and he will do the installation anyway. So 13 it is just shipped with the unit or it is shipped 14 in stalled in the unit. 15 So how do you specifically differentiate 16 be tween them? Because, as I am sure he is thinking 17 ri ght now, everything is going towards whole facility 18 ef ficiency, not just individual appliance efficiency. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, exactly. 20 MR. RIVEST: I think this is pretty clear21 cu t. I mean -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 MR. RIVEST: -- the operations manual will 2 sh ow you what to do, how to test. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 4 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you. 5 MR. STARR: Slow start. I was worried, that 6 no t being part of the startup instructions that go 7 wi th like how you say that, test procedure. It's 8 th ings that -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It can be as long as this is 10 in circulation not in accordance with the test 11 pr ocedure. 12 MR. STARR: Right. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So if the test 14 pr ocedure is exclusive and the test procedure -- I 15 me an, you could definitely say as part of the words 16 "D o not include the pump." If the test procedure 17 sp ecifically says, "Include pump," we're going to 18 in clude pump. 19 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. 20 MR. SHEBIK: Ashley? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes? 22 MR. SHEBIK: Can I ask a CRE question? And

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 ho pefully it will be an easy one and it won't 2 in terrupt the flow that you guys are doing here? In 3 th e case of a one-off or a one-of-a-kind model, I 4 me an, it may not apply to them as much as it applies 5 to us. We may have equipped the stores of all of our 6 pr oducts, which are remote cases, but we based on the 7 co nfiguration of the store may have to take one of 8 th ose cases and make it a self-contained model. It 9 wo uld be a unique one-of-a- kind, one-time, one-off. 10 We have only had one of those models built, self11 co ntained. The AEDM may not relate to that model. 12 Co uld we just do the one test? And would that 13 sa tisfy? 14 I mean, we run NSF runs, and we run DOE 15 te sts on it. So we would actually have two different 16 te sts at two different temperatures because NSF will 17 pr obably run a little bit colder than a DOE test. But 18 wo uld those two tests be sufficient to certify that 19 on e case, rather than us try to force a AEDM to apply 20 to it or have to build another case, which would not 21 be practical? So you would have your two cases to 22 te st.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer is not the way 2 th e regs are written right now, but that is on the 3 ag enda to deal with. 4 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 6 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Thanks. 7 MR. SACHS: The sample is the universe. You 8 kn ow, that is what you are saying. 9 MR. SHEBIK: That is a possibility. 10 MR. SACHS: Your testing sample is the 11 en tire universe. 12 MR. SHEBIK: We only built that one case and 13 ma y never ever build it again in a self-contained 14 ve rsion. It is just for the uniqueness of the store. 15 MR. SACHS: Yes. 16 MR. SHEBIK: We are going to actually test 17 th at one case we are shipping out. We are not going 18 to build a case to test. 19 MR. SACHS: Yes. 20 MR. SHEBIK: So we will know if that case 21 pe rforms or not. 22 MR. SACHS: Yes. So in that case --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you do if it doesn't 2 pe rform? I am just wondering. 3 MR. SACHS: You can't shoot the -- 4 MR. SHEBIK: Fix it. In that case, we would 5 go over to NSF and DOE. The cold temperature is -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, absolutely. 7 MR. SACHS: It is so nice when things 8 co llapse to a case I can analyze. 9 MR. SHEBIK: Just throw it out -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We going to let you start 11 of f on this list. 12 Just on this, what do you mean the 13 di fference between coated coils is like the soft 14 co ating versus -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Corrosion coating. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Corrosion coating is E, 17 co pper and evap coil? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Copper and evap coils. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is the corrosion? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, there are different 22 op tions.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Different options may be used 2 in a -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Here's the going-in 4 po sition. 5 MR. EISNER: Can we pay attention to what is 6 up on the screen now? Could we have everybody's 7 at tention? We've got something up on the screen. 8 Le t's start talking about it. Who has got any 9 co mments on the introductory paragraph, basic model? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think I spelled something 11 wr ong. I am going to fix that. 12 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Any comments? 13 Do es somebody want to describe what you are trying to 14 ac complish with the first paragraph? 15 MR. THARP: Just to clarify, I think we want 16 to add the word "net" before "nominal" in "cooling 17 ca pacity." 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you going to define 19 th at? 20 MR. THARP: Well, "net" includes indoor fan 21 po wer. And that would be -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Gross doesn't.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 MR. THARP: And gross does not. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. THARP: And that's really more the 4 sy stem portion of the commercial. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 6 MR. EISNER: We need to define that in 7 pa rentheses. Is there any -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You won't need to define it 9 in our regs. 10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add a 11 pa renthetical here as to what the agreed-to definition 12 is ? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: That's common in entry. 14 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry? I can't hear you. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: I'll just pull it out. 16 MR. EISNER: Oh. It is already defined? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: It's also in 348-360 as well. 18 It 's in both. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I will pull it out of the 20 te st procedure. We have incorporated the test 21 pr ocedures. So, by default, it is kind of already in 22 ou r regs, but we'll be explicit and pull it out.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else on the 2 in troductory paragraph, basic model needs? Questions? 3 Co mments? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 5 MR. RIVEST: Could someone walk us through, 6 ma ybe? 7 MR. WHITWELL: Through the introductory 8 pa ragraph? 9 MR. EISNER: The list. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The list. 11 MR. EISNER: I want to make sure nobody has 12 an y comments on the basic model definition. 13 MR. STARR: I wouldn't mind someone kind of 14 wa lking through the first paragraph just a little bit, 15 yo u know, some of the terms. Like when I hear 16 "n ominal," that usually means the number that you see 17 in the catalog. Like 2010 unit doesn't actually refer 18 to capacity. So just some things like that would be 19 he lpful for me to understand what some of those 20 ge neral definitions -- it doesn't have to be extremely 21 de tailed. Just a little bit would be handy. 22 MR. WHITWELL: I think, well, for example,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 if you have an option that requires a higher, larger 2 fa n motor, indoor fan motor, it changes the cooling 3 ca pacity because the cooling capacity, the net cooling 4 ca pacity, includes this. We have this subtraction 5 be cause of the fan power. Right? So, other than 6 th at, it is the same refrigeration system. So it 7 sh ould not be a different basic model. So that is 8 wh at that is referring to. Other options could 9 so mehow impact the efficiency or the capacity as well. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Nominal in this case is not 11 sa ying that this is a 120,000 10-ton unit. Nominal in 12 th is case is a set formula of your actual measured 13 ca pacity minus your fan power, your net nominal 14 ca pacity to set formula. So, I mean, it is actual for 15 th e unit at the test procedure points. 16 MR. STARR: And these terms are defined in 17 th e 340? Okay. 18 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. In this case, the 340- 20 36 0. 21 MR. THARP: I guess that actually probably 22 wo uldn't be with the use of the word "nominal" if we

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 wo uld open if we had a ten-ton unit. If somebody had 2 a unit rated 120,000, another rated 115,000, that's 3 so rt of a 10-ton nominally. So those could be one 4 ba sic model. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: If all those other things -- 6 MR. THARP: If all the other things are the 7 sa me. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, all the other things. 9 MR. THARP: It's unlikely -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 11 MR. THARP: -- that with that difference, 12 th at everything else would be the same or comparable. 13 MR. STARR: Well, for instance, in a unit, 14 yo u could have a standard high capacity or whatever. 15 An d it would all be a nominal 40-ton unit. And then 16 yo u would have a different coil capacity. That's 17 fi ne. And it's -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: But you likely would not meet 19 th ese other things. You wouldn't have the same 20 co mparable compressors and the same comparable coils 21 an d the same comparable fan system -- 22 MR. STARR: Right.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 MS. HOOTMAN: -- if you were having those 2 di fferent capacity points. 3 MR. STARR: Right. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: In any case, I guess you could 5 go down to the lowest common denominator and not 6 re port your other capacities. 7 MR. WHITWELL: Your higher capacity. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Your highest capacities. Go 9 do wn to the lowest common denominator of a model. 10 MR. STARR: Why did we make -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You would have that 12 ch oice. You would have to weigh that against other 13 th ings, not taking the marketing advantage for the 14 ot her. 15 MR. THARP: And, as an example, you know, in 16 th e condensing coil, same or comparable, some will 17 lo ok at it that two different fin patterns or fin 18 st yles. So one would be 18 fins per inch. The other 19 wo uld be 20 fins per inch or you might have a micro 20 ch annel where the net system performs the same so we 21 co uld provide a unit with any of those three coils and 22 ge t the same net efficiency as the test conditions.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 So that's the same or comparable conditions, pretty 2 mu ch the same thing with evaporated coil. 3 MR. EISNER: Other terms people would like 4 to discuss? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I guess I would say that, you 6 kn ow, that this was our work overnight and into this 7 mo rning. I don't know that this is exhaustive right 8 no w as far as the list. 9 MR. EISNER: The list? Are you talking 10 ab out the list? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: You have got to reach out if 13 yo u want to say -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think from DOE's 15 pe rspective at least, we would like to walk through 16 ea ch option and why they should be, why you think they 17 sh ould be, considered and for exclusion from, you 18 kn ow, this list or for inclusion in the list, 19 ex clusion from the -- 20 MR. EISNER: But let's be clear. On the 21 la st phrase in the introductory paragraph, in terms of 22 wh at Jill said, you want to say, "such as" so that you

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 ca n - 2 - 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 4 MS. MEYERS: I don't think we are ready to 5 lo ck it down yet. I think that's -- 6 MS. MEYERS: That's the point. 7 MR. THARP: Let's try to finalize the list. 8 MR. EISNER: So you want to try and finalize 9 th e list and get everything on here? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think we can do it 11 to day. 12 MR. THARP: Can I suggest that we walk 13 th rough what we have and we'll come back at the 14 be ginning of the next meeting to give us two weeks to 15 go back and double check, and adjust, make minor 16 ad justments, at that point in time? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think DOE is going to 18 ag ree because I am not sure we are going to -- 19 MR. THARP: Yes. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- get wholesale on this 21 li st either. 22 MR. THARP: Right.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, our thought was 2 th at this would be a good discussion point. You know, 3 it is pretty complete but not exhaustive; right? 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Well, why don't we start 5 wi th -- 6 MR. RIVEST: I also think that by discussing 7 ea ch option and how the group feels about it, we can 8 de velop general rules -- 9 MR. AMRANE: Sure. 10 MR. RIVEST: -- that can then be used to 11 ha ndle future options. 12 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 14 MR. AMRANE: Very good, very good. 15 MR. EISNER: All right. Do you want to 16 st art with the first on the list, the decreased test 17 en ergy? 18 MR. THARP: Can I just make real quickly one 19 co mment? This is air-to-air. And we haven't put 20 to gether something for water source yet. For water 21 so urce, this would be our suggestion for air-to-air 22 co mmercial HVAC. So the first one, comparable

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 ev aporative coil, some manufacturers have an aluminum 2 co il standard. You can get it with copper or copper 3 wi th a special coating on it. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 5 MR. THARP: Technically, you might -- the 6 re ality is I think you probably won't see much 7 di fferent in task, but you might in theory have a 8 sl ight decrease in applied energy. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. The heat transfer. 10 MR. THARP: Heat transfer is a little bit 11 be tter with copper, but depending on how you do it, 12 yo u may change your fin density on a coil that I will 13 se t at -- in both cases, they are decreasing energy 14 co nsumption. So I don't think that would be an issue. 15 MS. BARHYDT: And the customer wants it 16 mo stly in industrial applications or caustic 17 en vironments. They're using chemicals, et cetera. 18 Ju st similar minerals of aluminum to copper corrode 19 fa ster and copper to copper will not. It depends on 20 th e caustic environment. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So similar -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: It depends on what chemicals

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 th ey have. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So similar to the coil 3 co atings for corrosion for CCOS (ph) applications. 4 Th is is certainly going to be a benefit to the overall 5 en ergy consumption of the building over time, right, 6 be cause if you don't have the copper in some 7 ap plications or you don't have the coatings, you are 8 go ing to lose the fins. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So can I ask a 10 qu estion? You raised typically a rate, the aluminum 11 on e now is for -- 12 MR. THARP: Right. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the only thing changing 14 to the copper one would make your rating better? 15 MS. MEYERS: Long term. 16 MR. THARP: Even if you can synch fin, I 17 wo uld say it would be better than copper. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, say if you do no 19 mo difications other than aluminum to copper, knowing 20 th at the copper heat exchanger properties are a little 21 be tter. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Which should be better;

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 co rrect. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So but I would have thought 3 yo ur ratings should be at or better. Is that correct? 4 MR. WHITWELL: Correct. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but I mean, we can't sit 6 he re and -- we are doing theories. We don't have a 7 nu mber for them. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have numbers and 9 to lerance. 10 MR. THARP: Well within five percent. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, to me, that one 13

-- 14 MR. THARP: So that one should be a no15 br ainer as accepting. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it doesn't even need 17 to be on the list; right? 18 MR. THARP: Right. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you are not going to 20 ra te them separately. If we pull them to test, it 21 wi ll be at or better, -- 22 MR. CYMBALSKY: You don't need it.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- especially within the 2 fi ve percent. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: So it could possibly decrease 4 te st energy in the sense that there is more pressure 5 di fferential across them because they are thicker, you 6 kn ow. 7 MR. THARP: Because of fin thicknesses? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes. So your, you know, 9 co ndenser fan is drawing more? 10 MR. DOPPEL: Less space between things. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: So consensus is you prefer to 13 le ave it on the list? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't tell you because I 15 ha ve never tested it. 16 MR. EISNER: Well, but does that mean you 17 wa nt to leave it on the list? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's one I think 19 fr om DOE's perspective that, you know, if it is 20 so mething that you don't test and rate separately, you 21 ar e not going to claim separately, if I would have 22 th ought the changes that you are making wouldn't

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 de crease the test energy or at least significantly 2 ch ange the rating, you have the five percent -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: Actually, I think one of the 4 is sues is that different manufacturers do different 5 th ings; right, because, for example, copper is 6 ex pensive. And so what we typically do is we would 7 ta ke out the fins to get an equivalent performance. 8 So from my perspective, it would not have any impact 9 on the test procedure for our products. It would 10 de crease the applied energy over the long term because 11 th e coils are going to maintain their integrity. But 12 it sounds like some other manufacturers might just 13 ke ep everything the same. And so in that case, it 14 wo uld be higher performance perhaps. But I don't know 15 wh at everybody is doing. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: And, you know, it depends on 17 wh at the customer has asked for. I agree with you. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: We have done both. They have 20 do ne both where they have accepted it. 21 MR. RIVEST: The consequence of putting it 22 li ke this, as an exclusion, means that every system

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 wi th copper coils will not be tested. Now, I 2 un derstand today copper is more expensive than 3 al uminum. And by the time you have designed your 4 sy stem, I imagine it is always going to be more 5 ex pensive. So there is no risk here of a loophole 6 th at someone is going to manufacture all of their 7 pr oduct with copper? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: No. It's also three or four 9 ti mes heavier. 10 MR. RIVEST: Right. That is what I am 11 th inking. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, we have to have -- 13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. It is not just 14 th at loophole, though. It is also the loophole of, 15 we ll, maybe you don't have to make other components in 16 th at exempt A/C unit. This is true because you are 17 no w exempt from the standard. So, more than anything, 18 it impacts the -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but I guess we are not 20 ap proaching it that way. We are approaching it where 21 th e customer has a definite need and is requiring 22 th is. Now, they might have some of these other things

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 on there because of the actual building application 2 bu t they are not looking just to make it all come 3 un der the radar, shall I say. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, it's not their goal. 6 MR. WHITWELL: And I think our thought was 7 th at, let's say, if DOE wanted to test a unit, they 8 co uld test a unit that would be identical to one with 9 co pper coils or without copper coils, assuming, you 10 kn ow, that it doesn't have other things that end up on 11 th is list. And, you know, so they would just test 12 th at unit with all those other features and functions 13 wi th aluminum coil because it is an option that a 14 cu stomer can order with the copper or without 15 al uminum. 16 MR. BALLO: I guess my problem is what I am 17 he aring is that this is something some customers need 18 fo r their particular application and think it may have 19 a detrimental impact on energy use as measured in the 20 te st procedure, although maybe not. But beyond that, 21 th ough, it still seems imminently possible to me for 22 yo u to make a unit with copper evaporative coils given

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 th at it has a fairly small impact on to meet the 2 st andard. So I guess that is where I am coming at 3 th is from. 4 If there are things that are going to make 5 it very difficult for you to meet the standard, I am 6 fi ne potentially with them being on the list, 7 de pending on the actual real-world impact of it. But 8 fo r something that has a marginal impact where it 9 se ems like depending on how you implement it, you can 10 st ill meet the standard, that is where I have a 11 co ncern because at that point, you are taking a whole 12 pr oduct out of the standard. 13 MR. WHITWELL: An option. 14 MR. RIVEST: The burden to manufacturers of 15 no t having exclusion is increasing the number of 16 li stings in the directory. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to. They 18 co uld just -- no because they could still use that 19 as terisk and make it just the aluminum version. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, but the issue there is 21 th at the position that is asterisked, at least for us, 22 co vers multiple things.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Right? And also in some 3 ca ses, the -- well, it depends on how this list turns 4 ou t, but in some cases, that thing that is covered by 5 th at asterisk would be okay if it is used by itself or 6 wi th a few other things. But then when you get more 7 st uff piled on top, then suddenly it can't be. So you 8 ca n't just in the certified basic model, at least as 9 we understood it before -- we have cases where the 10 as terisks maybe could work, but then in other cases 11 wh ere that same position, the asterisk may not work 12 be cause it may not always be an acceptable -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: In the discussion when we talk 14 ab out putting an asterisk somewhere, don't think of it 15 li terally in the context of your specific basic model 16 nu mber. What we are saying is that that is a variable 17 th at you are allowed to use. That is a feature that 18 we are allowing to be a variable. So don't think 19 ab out, "Well, in space number 12 in my model number, I 20 us e that for this feature, this feature, this feature, 21 an d this feature. And these two are allowed 22 va riables, and these two are disallowed variables"

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 be cause that is not what we mean when we say, "It is 2 an asterisk." We are just saying that is something 3 th at you are allowed to vary within the basic model 4 wi thout any impact being attributed to it. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Okay. So we'll have 6 to go through this and then see how this comes out -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 8 MR. WHITWELL: -- and then see whether the 9 as terisk works or not. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Right, right. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I guarantee by the 12 ti me you get to the end of this, your specific 13 as terisk scheme that you use today may not be 14 id entical to what you may need to do for the basic 15 mo del -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, which -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- because you all do it 18 sl ightly differently. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so to say that, you 21 kn ow, but will it be a lot more workable than what you 22 th ink we have today, hopefully. That is the goal.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 MR. WHITWELL: Hopefully. Right, hopefully. 2 Bu t John is right. I mean, the impact is how many 3 mo dels are going to have to be put into the database. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So to us, even if we took 5 th is out; right, so to Tim's point, if we took this 6 ou t, we could still pick one, a copper one or aluminum 7 on e, any variation thereof, to test. It wouldn't 8 ch ange the way you test unless you wanted to make 9 se parate -- it wouldn't change the way you test 10 re gardless. If you wanted to make separate ratings of 11 th e copper version versus the aluminum version, you 12 wo uld use your AEDM to come up with the separate 13 ra tings. And then you would certify them separately. 14 If you did not and just wanted to base it all in 15 al uminum like you are doing today, you could use your 16 AE DM. You rate all the aluminum ones. And, you know, 17 fo r the copper ones and aluminum ones, you certify 18 th em as one basic model, same listing, singular 19 li sting, period. 20 It is not changing what you are doing today, 21 bu t what it allows us to do to also alleviate Tim's 22 co ncern is that they could be subject to verification

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 te sting, either in industry programs or a DOE program, 2 su ch that -- and they would be, the five percent would 3 be , applicable. And we go through that process, the 4 sa me process we have outlined, but that is essentially 5 wh at you would have. You would have two options: a 6 si ngular rating for them or you could separate them if 7 yo u wanted to. 8 So to us, you know, there is probably a line 9 wh ere if it really does just decrease your test energy 10 or stay the same or it's a slight modification that is 11 de finitely within the tolerance, you can still do what 12 yo u are doing today without having to list more unless 13 yo u want to claim them as different values, which it 14 so unds like you definitely don't or there is no real 15 re ason to. 16 MR. AMRANE: Well, I would think we would 17 ha ve to look at this -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 19 MR. AMRANE: -- closely and make sure that, 20 in deed, it's the same or very close because I don't 21 th ink that -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't say I don't --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And I think DOE said 2 do the same thing, I mean, just looking at the list 3 be cause, I mean, that is what I am trying to explain, 4 th at that is what we would allow. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So basically, so make 6 su re I understand. So for this item that is up here, 7 th ese items up here, that say, "Decreased test energy" 8 an d "Decreased applied energy," DOE's thought is that 9 th ose could be tested, models with those in them could 10 be tested, and the assumption is that they would 11 pe rform at or -- they would be equivalent to units 12 th at don't have those options? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you would not have to 14 li st them separately unless you wanted to make a 15 di fferentiation point between the ratings. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. And, regardless, 18 yo u could always use your AEDM. You wouldn't have to 19 te st, no more testing. 20 MR. STARR: I was going to say -- Louis 21 St arr -- I think a lot of that is typically you don't 22 te st that stuff because those are special team

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 en vironment things that you don't really -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. And I am not sure that 3 we would ever necessarily test one either, but to the 4 ex tent we got a complaint about a specific model that 5 ha d one of these combinations of things, we may ask 6 yo u for one. 7 MR. KLEISS: Jeff, Lochinvar. Related to 8 th is -- and stop me if I'm getting too far, a step 9 ah ead of this, but in terms of the templates or what 10 in formation we are going to actually report, putting 11 mo del numbers in to that, to what degree of detail -- 12 MS. BARHYDT: You are getting ahead. 13 MR. KLEISS: I am? Okay. I see these two 14 ve ry much -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, so that is where -- 16 ye s. So, I mean, that is when we are talking about 17 du mmy values or stuff like that. I mean, these are 18 ty pes of things that you wouldn't necessarily need to 19 be separate individual model numbers because from 20 DO E's -- you could use A or an asterisk or a question 21 ma rk or whatever if you wanted to, but that is with 22 th e existing scheme. You know, what you have to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 ce rtify, how you have to certify, what information 2 co mes into the Department is on the table after we get 3 th rough this, probably for my leave. 4 MS. MEYERS: I think maybe the point is the 5 on ly thing I am struggling with is the additive with 6 th at. So green, we typically use two digits for 7 fa ctory options. So it could have a copper coil. So 8 th e factory option could be A-Z, which is copper coil 9 on ly. It could be AN, which is copper coil and hot 10 ga s repeats. It could be a 00, which is no options. 11 So I am still kind of struggling with it could be BN, 12 wh ich has like eight of those options. I am trying to 13 fi gure out. We use asterisks for those two places in 14 ou r model number because it depends upon the 15 co mbination of options that the customer -- 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right now. Focus on actual 17 mo del numbers that are used right now. Right now 18 fo cus on the conceptual what do we want to group 19 to gether using the same rating and what things need to 20 be basically rated separately because that is what 21 ba sic models are about. They are not about physical 22 mo del numbers that are going on products. They are

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 no t the model numbers that you are using to code 2 sp ecific skews. It is a conceptual thing. 3 MS. MEYERS: Yes, but model numbers are very 4 im portant. 5 MS. BARHYDT: I realize that when we get to 6 ha ving you provide that information, we're going to 7 ha ve to have to deal with that, but -- 8 MR. EISNER: Guys, guys, the court reporter 9 ca n't do four or five people at the same time. 10 MS. MEYERS: I am trying to get where you 11 ar e going. I am just trying to figure out how we 12 wo uld apply that in our factories and in our business. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But where you are 14 co ming in -- 15 MS. MEYERS: It is not a -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- you would -- 17 MS. MEYERS: -- make that connection yet. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would have to. And I am 19 no t clear that that is the case yet. So yes, under 20 ou r existing scheme, we require a basic model and 21 in dividual model, et cetera, et cetera. And what we 22 ar e saying is that we are open here. So once we get

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 th e list of finite options, it may have an impact on 2 yo u that is going to completely change your numbering 3 sc heme; whereas, on Rusty, it doesn't change anything 4 he does. So we are going to have to reconcile that 5 an d come up with a common way that you can report 6 th ings to DOE that reflect this list. But until we 7 ca n get our heads around what actually changes the 8 ra ting and what doesn't and what is in and what is out 9 fo r purposes of complying with the standards and 10 co ming up with different -- you know, what and how you 11 ce rtify is definitely still on the table for an open 12 di scussion. And I have no doubt that will take a half 13 a day or a day to work through because everyone does 14 it differently. And the intent is not to make you all 15 ch ange, but it is to find a common denominator. 16 MR. SACHS: Ashley, I think some of us are 17 ha ving trouble with the mapping question. And the 18 as terisk in manufacturers' models' names is a common 19 ac cepted practice and has a very specific meaning to 20 th em. We are trying to use a different meaning in 21 te rms of the basic models and groupings for DOE 22 pu rposes. I would suggest that we take this new

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 th ing, the DOE purposes, and just call it dagger, not 2 be cause it is a dagger to the heart, but because it is 3 th e next symbol that was used for footnotes. That may 4 ma ke it easier. 5 MR. RIVEST: You know, just having spent a 6 li ttle time in the directory, I can envision using 7 ex actly what you are doing, the same asterisks in the 8 sa me place. 9 MR. SACHS: It may converge to that, but as 10 we are trying to do conceptual things. 11 MR. RIVEST: Right. If they can have that 12 in the back of their mind as a model, that -- because 13 ri ght now, the way it is set up, there is no exclusion 14 fo r anything. It is only the basic model definition 15 th at tells you that of the universe of models they 16 ma ke, you shouldn't be taking certain models for 17 te sting. 18 The asterisks themselves are basically a 19 va riable that says there are many options here. So it 20 co uld be the same asterisks, the exact same reporting 21 th ey have now with a different basic model definition 22 th at would limit the sampling.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could do it that way, 2 to o. That is not how it is implemented now, but that 3 is a planned option. That would not change a single 4 wa y you do things now in terms of your model number. 5 MR. AMRANE: I think the common meaning 6 me eting for now is what we have in the AHRI program. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 8 MR. RIVEST: I know, but let me be clear for 9 yo u. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no common between 11 hi m and him and her and her. 12 MR. AMRANE: Right. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I am not saying there 14 ne cessarily needs to be. But what this list is going 15 to do is say, "Hey, DOE, you can each" -- what Mike is 16 tr ying to say is "You can each use your different 17 nu mbering schemes with asterisks and letter 18 co mbinations and numbers, et cetera, but you need to 19 be cognizant, DOE, when you pick. Make sure you don't 20 ge t one of these options." 21 MR. RIVEST: That's a filter. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the filter.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 MR. AMRANE: Filter, yes. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it is like applying. And 3 th is is not how our regs are written now, but that 4 do esn't mean things need to stay or be removed from 5 th is list because what we need to talk about is what 6 sh ould be on this list first. And it may very well be 7 th en that the certification just is, you know, "I 8 ce rtify however I want to certify now with the 9 di fferent combinations I have now. But DOE, when you 10 go to pick one or to the extent we start accepting a 11 DO E industry program, when they go to pick one, you 12 ne ed to make sure you don't pick one with one of these 13 op tions," whatever that final list is. That is 14 an other way to do it. 15 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 16 MS. DANE: Excuse me. You know, I got a 17 no te that the audio portion of the webinar is not 18 go ing out. I don't know if it is because they have 19 th eir settings wrong or we are actually not on. 20 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. We are on. 21 MS. DANE: Okay. So is there a different 22 ca lling number?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Not yet. 3 MS. DANE: Okay. 4 MALE SPEAKER: Is somebody trying to give 5 fe edback or is it somebody on the line? 6 MS. MEYERS: Is it the mute calling number 7 yo u used yesterday or do you -- 8 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. It's the number that 9 th ey received when they registered for the webinar. 10 MS. MEYERS: So that is the old number. 11 MS. DANE: The old number? 12 MS. MEYERS: Yes. 13 MS. DANE: Okay. Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. EISNER: Do you want to wait and see if 15 it works, check? 16 MS. DANE: I think we can go on. I just 17 wa nt to make sure that -- 18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. It's working for 19 ev eryone else on the line. 20 MS. DANE: Okay. Thank you. 21 MR. EISNER: Okay. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I mean, do we

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 ha ve a sense of where I guess DOE is coming from and 2 Ti m may be coming from and where you guys for this one 3 or does somebody want to explain correction capacitors 4 or do we just want to move on to another? 5 MR. EISNER: Looking at it from a different 6 pe rspective, after all this discussion, does everybody 7 ag ree on the first cell bullet that it should include 8 co pper evaporator coils and corruption capacitors? I 9 re alize this is -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I don't think we agree. 11 MR. EISNER: -- for now, for now. We 12 un derstand you are all going back and you are going to 13 ch eck with others and come back at the next meeting. 14 An d we will decide what should be on the final list. 15 Do es anybody have an objection to these being 16 in cluded, even now, on the tentative list? Tim? 17 MR. BALLO: Yes. What I have heard about 18 co rrection capacitors bothers me. 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Can you tell us about 20 co rrection capacitors? It sounds like a criminal -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know. Do we literally 22 ha ve them as correction capacitors?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 MR. FLY: I'll tell you what they are. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. They're -- 3 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. 4 Co rrection capacitors are a power line. Basically if 5 yo u put the capacitor on the power line, it changes 6 th e power factor, the phase shift at three-phase 7 po wer, which improves things for the utility because 8 th ey had bad power factor, they hate inductive bones 9 th at shift their frequency in one phase, as opposed to 10 th e other. And when you put a power correction 11 ca pacitor in, your measured power goes lower. It is 12 an expense. They also generate some heat. So I don't 13 re ally know -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. They do generate some 15 he at. 16 MR. FLY: I don't know what the -- I am not 17 an electrical engineer, unfortunately. So I don't 18 re ally know what the net is, but they are required in 19 ce rtain applications because the power company is 20 co ming to this facility saying, "We will not sell you 21 po wer until you correct the power factor on your 22 bu ilding."

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And if it's not in the 2 un it, then the building has to do it, right, because 3 it can be done either at the source or it can be done 4

-- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 6 MR. WHITWELL: -- where it is connected to 7 th e grid. 8 MR. FLY: That's the reason we get asked to 9 pu t them in there. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 11 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any concerns? Any 13 ad ditional questions? 14 MR. STARR: It is pretty uncommon. I mean, 15 us ually they are done at the facility level and 16 bi gger. Well, when the power company comes in, they 17 ar e more interested in other things. 18 MR. WHITWELL: But there are some standards 19 th at say that if you are causing an issue, you are 20 re sponsible, your equipment is responsible, for 21 co rrecting it. 22 MR. FLY: Because you are messing with the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 wh ole grid. 2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 4 MR. FLY: But I would agree. It is a common 5 re quested item that does come up. 6 MR. JOHNSON: Neither is comparable. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Neither is comparable. I 8 me an, I place less than one percent. When you place 9 th ose babies, those are -- 10 MR. JOHNSON: Exactly. 11 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Other issues? 12 MR. RIVEST: These do not penalize the 13 te sted energy. 14 MR. WHITWELL: They are in the unit. And 15 wh en it is powered up -- 16 MR. JOHNSON: It is in the bucket: 17 in creased test energy. I don't know the answer to 18 th at. 19 MR. JOHNSON: They probably do; right? I 20 me an, there have been -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: It is theoretical because we 22 ha ve never actually done it.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you said the power 2 go es lower. 3 MR. RIVEST: Yes, but it's power factor and 4 no t -- 5 MR. WHITWELL: It's power factor, but 6 th ere's also -- I mean, there are going to be some 7 lo sses. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: There's heat, and there is 9 he at generated -- 10 MR. FLY: There is lost heat. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- so that you are having to 12 co unteract that heat, depending on if they are in the 13 ai rstream or not in the airstream, that matters. 14 MR. FLY: Power factor is one of the 15 va riables when you calculate watts, amps, volts, and 16 po wer factor. It is part of that calculation. So 17 wh en you improve the power factor, the watts go down, 18 bu t these things also consume some energy in doing 19 th at. 20 And I don't know what the net is. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 22 MR. FLY: Like I said, I am not an

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 el ectrical engineer. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not. 3 MR. FLY: And we could find out, but I don't 4 kn ow what it is. 5 MR. AMRANE: I think we have put this to the 6 de crease in energy consumption. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Some are in the airstream, and 8 so me are not airstream. 9 MR. AMRANE: We really don't know for sure. 10 So at this point in time, it's there, yes, but we will 11 ha ve to do further -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. AMRANE: -- research on it. 14 MR. RIVEST: This is not again some design 15 op tion you throw in so that you can build a whole, you 16 kn ow -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, no, no. 18 MR. RIVEST: We do this because somebody 19 ma kes us. 20 MR. STARR: Just a point of clarification. 21 Yo u know, the thing that makes heat is a resistance 22 el ement, a capacitor, not a resistor. It's like an

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 in ductor. It's not a resistor. So I don't think they 2 ar e at energy use. It has to be a capacitor to -- if 3 it is creating heat, there is a problem. So I don't 4 th ink it affects the -- but I guess we will check. My 5 se nse is that it is not. 6 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. From a 7 pr actical point of view, if you go put your hand on a 8 he avily loaded capacitor trying to correct for power 9 fa ctor, you'll come away with some skin missing. So 10 it does generate heat. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, there is heat. And then 12 th e regular coils around the airstream are not -- is 13 th at enough heat, you know, when we are talking about 14 th ese units that are 60 tons of air flow? I can't 15 te ll you. But it's one of those additive things that 16 wh en you add all of these up, now are we, you know -- 17 MR. FLY: Yes. I think it is something to 18 co nsider. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, the -- 20 MR. FLY: And we need to do some more 21 re search. And we'll have that in a couple of weeks. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Again, the for now list

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 or the something to consider list for the next couple 2 of weeks. Any objections to what we have got on the 3 li st? 4 Can we go on to the next category: the 5 de creased test energy, increased supplied energy? Do 6 yo u want to explain those? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There are none. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: None. 9 MR. EISNER: Okay. That's a good 10 ex planation. Everybody agrees there are none? 11 Okay. What do you mean by that comment, 12 As hley? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. I just mean that DOE 14 ha s a real test procedure issue for them. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Increased test energy, 16 de creased supplied energy, my favorite term, 17 "e conomizers." Who came up with that term? That was 18 a marketer who is not an engineer? 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Of course, it was marketing. 20 MR. SACHS: Marketing. 21 MR. STARR: Well, it is economizing because 22 yo u are using free energy that you don't have to run

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 co mpressors. So it's economizing because you are 2 us ing outside air. 3 MR. EISNER: It's just a noun. It sounds 4 li ke it's out of Star Trek or something. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: It is. 6 MR. EISNER: Okay. All right. 7 MR. FLY: It comes with all free coolers 8 al so. 9 MR. EISNER: Any questions on economizers? 10 An y concerns? You know, we are talking about a list. 11 Lo uis? 12 MR. STARR: Well, I guess my concern is that 13 th is seems like the economizer should be part of the 14 te st procedure, but that's really another issue. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it's not because it 16 ne eds to be off this list if it's part of the -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: It's not part of the test 18 pr ocedure. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. 20 MR. WHITWELL: It cannot even -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is not currently. 22 MR. WHITWELL: The industry does not have

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 te st facilities to include it. 2 MR. STARR: You know, it is an interesting 3 th ing when we were talking yesterday about what the 4 ty pical unit had been up on three to five million 5 sq uare feet of going through auditing, building up and 6 bu ilding down. So I have in my mind exactly what a 7 re al, you know, typical unit is. And they always 8 us ually have economizers, climate zones 4 and up, 9 wh ich is 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, which is a huge part of what 10 U. S. is, have economizers. 11 And, you know, it just seems like suddenly 12 yo u are talking about miles per gallon in a car. 13 We ll, everybody kind of knows what a car is. And in 14 my mind, when I think of an air handler, I think that 15 it had an economizer on it. When you talk about was 16 DO E supposed to really model realistic performance of 17 li ke washing machines and things, you know, you put 18 yo ur typical load of clothes in there. It's the same 19 wa y with air handlers. It seems like that should be 20 an item that would really be on part of the tested 21 mo del, but if it's not practical, it would be in the 22 te st procedure.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 MR. DOPPEL: But the economizer is like the 2 do wnhill part within a car. You know, you are using 3 le ss gas. 4 MR. STARR: It is helping you out, in other 5 wo rds. 6 MR. AMRANE: Yes, exactly. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, a test lab would have 8 to bring in outside air. And that is really hard to 9 do . 10 MR. SACHS: Louis, my heart is with you, but 11 my brain is saying that we are not ready for that test 12 pr ocedure revision -- 13 MR. STARR: Yes. 14 MR. SACHS: -- my limited brain. 15 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? Other 16 co ncerns? 17 MR. THARP: Just as a general comment, there 18 ar e lots of different types of economizers. As I was 19 go ing through everybody's list, there's modulating, 20 du al -- all kinds of -- that's a general term, 21 "e conomizers." There's horizontal. There's down 22 fl ow. There's up flow. There's left. There's right.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 MR. RIVEST: I'm going to say it's a lot. 2 Ec onomizers may make perfect sense, not to punish 3 an ybody for having those, but if there are all sorts, 4 le t's make sure there's no sort out there that would 5 be very inexpensive and become the loophole. So if 6 th ere is more definition to an economizer, it should 7 pr obably be added. 8 MR. BALLO: One idea for how maybe to 9 ad dress the possibility of loopholes is we make this 10 ba sic model definition a restriction on DOE's 11 se lections for verification testing but not an 12 ex emption from the standard. So you would still 13 th eoretically have to comply if you built one of these 14 un its, but no one would ever test one? But that would 15 at least preserve the authority for the Department. 16 If someone is coming around building something and 17 sa ying, "Oh, this has an economizer on it. It's 18 ex empt," the product itself would not actually be 19 ou tside of DOE's enforcement reach. 20 MR. AMRANE: We're not saying that the 21 pr oduct is exempt. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 MR. AMRANE: The product is tested, but it 2 is tested without the economizer. It's tested 3 di fferently. 4 MR. RIVEST: Is that always going to be 5 fe asible? Let's say you're -- 6 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yes. 7 MS. MEYERS: That's what we do the basic 8 re frigeration system. That's what we test. So it's 9 wi thout, you know -- 10 MR. WHITWELL: You can order the unit with 11 or without the economizer. Otherwise, it's the same. 12 MR. RIVEST: What Karim is saying is that 13 yo u could order the unit with all those gadgets -- 14 MR. AMRANE: That's true. 15 MR. RIVEST: -- and take them all off. 16 MR. WHITWELL: No, not always. I mean, 17 th at's -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: No. You can't always -- 19 MR. WHITWELL: You would have to take the -- 20 MR. AMRANE: It is going to be very 21 di fficult because then if you buy a unit out there 22 wi th all of those things, then you would have to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 re move them or do something. It is like it is not 2 pr actical from a DOE standpoint. You would have to do 3 wh at we do with AHRI: 4 get your basic refrigeration system directly 5 fr om the manufacturer. Otherwise it is not going to 6 be practical from a DOE standpoint. That is my 7 pe rsonal opinion. 8 MR. STARR: One other question. The test 9 pr ocedure is 8064 outside air; right? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Sixty-seven. 11 MR. STARR: Sixty-seven. You wouldn't be 12 us ing an economizer with that thing, so not -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: That's return air. Eighty 14 si xty-seven is return air. 15 MR. WHITWELL: Return air. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Ninety-five, outdoor. 17 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 18 MR. STARR: So would you be economizing in 19 th at particular case? 20 MR. WHITWELL: You are not economizing, but 21 yo u have some dampers in there to separate the return 22 ai r from your outdoor air, --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 MS. HOOTMAN: So it has a pressure drop. 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- which caused a pressure 3 dr op. 4 MR. STARR: Right. So that's why I was 5 th inking you don't really need to bring in outside air 6 to do the test procedure. You just need the fact that 7 th e pressure drop is in there. 8 MR. WHITWELL: In other words, the pressure 9 dr op raises the fan motor power, which increases the 10 ov erall power draw, which decreases. 11 MR. STARR: Right. But what I am getting at 12 is that you don't actually need to bring in outside 13 ai r to bring your test procedure; right? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Correct. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true. 16 MR. STARR: So we are just saying we 17 co uldn't model -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: So they are going to increase 19 th e test of energy, but, in actuality, in actually 20 bu ilding your energy usage, that is a positive. 21 MR. AMRANE: Exactly. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: So we are getting hit for it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 in 2

-- 3 MR. STARR: But you don't get -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: -- our test procedure -- 5 MR. STARR: You don't get to -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: But we're not getting the 7 eq ual-- 8 MR. STARR: Right. Okay. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- bang for the buck out there 10 in the actual applied building. 11 MR. STARR: Okay. I buy that. 12 MR. SACHS: Let the record show that this is 13 a little bit theoretical since the damper is never 14 op ened. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Harvey, weren't you saying 16 ye sterday that you knew all of these studies where the 17 co ntractors don't install it correctly? We want this 18 st uff put in by the factory; right, because we do it 19 be tter than they do in the field. 20 MR. SACHS: You know, it's interesting. If 21 yo u are accusing me of inconsistency, I resemble that. 22 MR. STARR: We have been doing a lot on

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 th is. We use economizers a lot in the Northwest. And 2 so , actually, the problem with economizers is that if 3 th ey come in the factory, it is great, but what 4 ha ppens is they don't get set up right. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes. 6 MR. STARR: And so it is great. It is like 7 a product that works well in the car, but, unlike the 8 ca r, it comes from the factory working in a car, but 9 yo u actually have to set it in the field. So 10 so metimes it is actually better. In our studies, we 11 fo und out that if we had enhanced commissioning or 12 so me version of it, we had better luck with those 13 ac tually being operable because you have someone going 14 th rough and checking, making sure it works; whereas, 15 it gets done in the factory, but you can't know what 16 ha ppens actually in the field, the person setting it 17 up right. So there is a mixed bag on those. 18 MR. FLY: Just one more point. The 19 De partment is considering IEER ratings. And some of 20 th e points in IEER rating would be appropriate for an 21 ec onomizer, but there again, it's not in the test 22 pr ocedure.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 MS. HOOTMAN: And very hard for the labs to 2 br ing in outside air and regulate -- 3 MR. FLY: It would be very hard for us to be 4 ab le to do it. 5 MR. STARR: And the only thing -- 6 MR. FLY: It's not even 67 on the coil 7 an ymore. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 9 MR. STARR: The only thing I would say is I 10 ge t the point that you are taking a hit on the test 11 pr ocedure here. You are taking a pressure drop and 12 pr essure dent, which is then using more fan energy. 13 An d you're not getting, obviously, the free cooling 14 si de of it. But the thing about it, that is what is 15 in a unit. So it is kind of modeling what the real 16 th ing is. And everybody takes the hit equally. Every 17 un it out there would have to have an economizer. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: But is that really fair for 19 th e nation because there are definitely parts of the 20 na tion that don't use economizers because of the humid 21 co nditions? 22 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 Ca rrier. Just to comment. Carrier has taken the 2 ec onomizer off of our single phase three, five-ton S 3 fa ctory option in response to the current rules. So 4 it 's no longer available from the factory. If it is 5 go ing to be put in the building, it is going to be 6 do ne retrofit. And it's the same reason as we are 7 ta lking about here. It is a hit on the SEER. And we 8 do n't get the benefit of the economizers. So we have 9 dr opped it from our product line. It is not available 10 fr om the factory anymore. So the impact is we are 11 ge tting them installed in the field. We have got 12 is sues with the quality of the installation that is 13 do ne in the field. And so overall it is increasing the 14 en ergy use for the nation. 15 MR. THARP: And Goodman has taken the same 16 po sition also. 17 MR. STARR: The other part of that, though, 18 th is 90.1 committee has looked at where does it make 19 se nse to have an economizer. I think that number is 20 54 ,000 BTU, which is 12. It's like -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's that -- 22 MR. STARR: -- all the five-ton.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's the five -- 2 MR. STARR: but once you start getting above 3 th at, the equipment there, then it becomes cost4 ef fective to have an economizer. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. My point is that if we 6 do n't have exemptions for an economizer, you are going 7 to see the same thing happen on the larger equipment 8 th at we have already done on the smaller, single-phase 9 eq uipment. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I am actually going to 11 mo ve us forward because the economizer was one of the 12 ex amples we used. I think it is one of the examples 13 yo u guys have explained why it is necessary. To the 14 ex tent in the future the test procedure may need to be 15 ch anged to reflect it or may not, you know, that is a 16 fu ture discussion and outside of the realm. For now, 17 we are in a situation where, you know, obviously, for 18 so mething that provides a field benefit and isn't 19 ca ptured in the test procedure, you know, this is the 20 ex ample we were looking for. 21 So can somebody keep going with our list? 22 Be cause we do want to get through this.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 MR. EISNER: Let me ask if everybody is 2 ag reeing to that. No problems with that? 3 All right. 4 MR. SACHS: I think we are all in a 5 te ntative point right now. 6 MR. EISNER: I understand. That is the 7 wh ole list. 8 The next item is ERVs, HRVs. 9 MR. SACHS: Let me just throw one other 10 th ing in in initial response to Bob's comment that it 11 ma y be that a similar approach may not work across all 12 ca pacities. The three to five-ton units are rated 13 di fferently and are potentially derived, if I am 14 co rrect, from the residential models. And they are 15 no t designed from the ground up for commercial 16 ap plications. So it may be that that is a carve-out 17 th at people would want to make. Again, this is a 18 fu ture discussion that I want to place on the record. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: It is a good point, Harvey. 20 We will look at that. 21 MR. SACHS: Please. It would be helpful. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. The next item on the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 li st? 2 MR. THARP: Energy recovery for heat 3 re covery. 4 MR. SACHS: I look at those three items as 5 al l being subsets. I mean, the heat pipe is just 6 an other way to do heat recovery. 7 MR. THARP: Yes, right. 8 MR. SACHS: So why don't we just lump them 9 to gether? 10 MR. EISNER: Any objections to that? 11 It's just all energy and/or heat recovery. 12 MR. THARP: The next line also, actually. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Those are all existing 14 te chnologies. 15 MR. EISNER: Coated coils. 16 MR. WHITWELL: So the discussion there is, 17 as we mentioned before, you put the coating on the 18 co il and it decreases the heat transfer to some 19 ex tent; right? So it can decrease your EER measure 20 ou t of the box, but it will sustain the performance 21 mu ch longer. So over the life of the product, you are 22 go ing to use significantly less energy. And these are

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 ju st for CCOS, typically CCOS applications, where you 2 ha ve -- 3 MR. THARP: Or industrialized. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Or industrial. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Or industrial. 6 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: In lieu of the copper 8 ev aporative coil, which, you know, in the future, that 9 co pper evaporative coil may change because literally 10 co pper is very, very expensive now. So that is going 11 wa y down. And they are going to the coated coils 12 in stead. 13 MR. RIVEST: You know what I'm going to say. 14 We will have to define coating so people don't spray 15 it with acrylic or something. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Should we say baked coil or 17 wh at do you want to say? 18 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I don't know. I mean, 19 no t everybody uses -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: They're not all baked coil 21 an ymore. 22 MR. THARP: But, then again, just because a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 co ated coil is an option, the basic model would still 2 be acceptable for tasks. 3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. If you were to look at 4 or dering a unit from us, you can order the exact same 5 th ing with coated coils or without coated coils. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 7 MR. WHITWELL: So you would just order it 8 wi th 9

-- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, just to play devil's 11 ad vocate here, I could order the one that is the base 12 ri ght at the 11.0 minimum. And when you put that 13 co ating on, well, I see it will maintain the integrity 14 of the use over time better because it has that 15 co ating in a caustic environment. It would definitely 16 de grade that EER value right out the gate. 17 MR. WHITWELL: There is a slight -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that one I could never 19 te st. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 21 MR. RIVEST: And my biggest concern is that 22 a manufacturer comes up and offers only coated heat

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 ex changers. 2 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that gets to Tim's point 4 of retaining enforcement authority. 5 MR. AMRANE: The purpose of doing that would 6 be just to enroll the EER, just to be exempted from -- 7 MR. RIVEST: To save a few bucks and 8 un dercut 9

-- 10 MR. AMRANE: It is not a few bucks because - 11

- 12 MR. RIVEST: It costs a few bucks if the 13 co ating isn't the problem. 14 MR. WHITWELL: So would it be -- I'm sorry. 15 Go ahead. 16 MR. STARR: No. I was just saying spray 17 pa inting the coating on there, too. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Would it be acceptable to say 19 in here that these are exempted, but DOE would have 20 th e right to order a unit with the same 21 ch aracteristics as one with coated coils? I mean, you 22 kn ow, somehow get that wording in there?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that's where 2 Ti m was going, but we could exclude them for the fact 3 of listing separately. So you don't need to list them 4 se parately, but we would retain the ability to 5 en force. So they would be subject to the minimums. 6 MR. WHITWELL: But the issue here is that 7 ok ay. An individual if you just test the unit with 8 co ated coils, okay. No problem; right? It's going to 9 be within the five percent. But if you start stacking 10 th ings up, you have got coated coils. You have got 11 ha il guards. You've got dehumidification. You have 12 go t indoor fan motor. You've got economizer. You 13 st art stacking all those up. And the impact gets to 14 be real; right? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is real. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I tell you we are 17 co ncerned. We start stacking up. And you get from 18 ou r 11 standard to a 10. I am just making up numbers 19 co mpletely. That is a real issue. 20 MR. WHITWELL: I understand the concern. 21 MR. AMRANE: That is not an issue we get. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is an issue.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 MR. AMRANE: On basic, it is an issue, but 2 on energy consumption, it is not. It could be that 3 yo u will be saving more energy. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be if somebody -- 5 MR. AMRANE: Because we go down. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why are we screaming? 7 MR. AMRANE: No, I am not screaming. I'm 8 sa ying there we go down. Why? It would save energy 9 ov er a long time. You would save energy. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some of them do, and some of 11 th em don't. Karim, we have a list here. It is going 12 to be -- you know, we are not trying here to say, "I 13 am going to take 20 things, pile them on, and now you 14 ha ve to meet the standard." You know, obviously that 15 is not the idea. We are trying to get just a middle 16 gr ound that is reasonable to say, "Okay. These things 17 ar e in. And that is where we are going with this 18 di scussion and trying to really understand what are 19 th ese things, how they are actually applied, how they 20 ar e actually ordered, how they come through in the 21 te st procedure, and what they do in the field. So 22 th at is the purpose of doing this." You do have

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 st andards. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: And also how our AEDM can 3 pr edict those ratings. And I would say that that is 4 on e of the harder things, telling or portraying what 5 th e additive effect, add and subtract effect, is in 6 ou r AEDMs because we don't necessarily -- we base them 7 on basic refrigeration systems, like we have talked 8 ab out. And we haven't based it on what do all of those 9 me an. So it is sitting there today. We don't have 10 te sted values for them. 11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Truly, coils can be 12 ve ry difficult because depending on the quality of 13 yo ur coating makes all the difference in the world. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 15 MR. HON: We have some very harsh 16 en vironments in the food service industry where it is 17 ar ound vinegar all the time. We have a very, very 18 he avy coil which will impact the efficiency of the 19 un it by more than ten percent. But it is necessary 20 be cause of the corrosive factors involved, the same as 21 in dustrial applications may have exactly the same 22 pr oblem. So coated coils may be 1 or 2 percent change

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 in energy, as much as 10 or 15 percent change in 2 en ergy depending on what is coated. And that is where 3 th e problems come in for you guys because under severe 4 co nditions, you know, we are talking some environments 5 wh ere food materials have very high acetic acid 6 co ntent inside of a refrigerator open. And they will 7 ea t up anything unless you really put a heavy coat on 8 it . And if you put the heavy coat on, you don't get 9 ef ficiency. 10 So that's part of the question we're facing 11 he re, that we're going to all face the same question 12 he re because it is going to come up again. But there 13 ar e conditions in certain parts of the world that are 14 na sty. And coating of the coil will put it out there, 15 ye s. 16 MR. RIVEST: So in other products, you know, 17 th ere could be a product class defined for harsh 18 en vironments. 19 MR. HON: Yes. 20 MR. RIVEST: And the analysis would be done 21 se parately for that. The standard level resulting 22 fr om that could be different.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 MR. HON: Well, we would make adjustments 2 of f of the more base model because we had all the 3 ot her information on a more base model, not just the 4 ha rsh environment models because there is another 5 th ing involved there, but we will be doing modeling on 6 th ings like this. And that is one of the things we 7 wo uld consider in our adjustments, the type of 8 co atings we would put on there. But if you exempt it, 9 yo u can have some major changes in efficiency. 10 MR. STARR: It seems like on this list, 11 th ere are definitely things that -- like the 12 ec onomizer is pretty clear there is value in it. But 13 th ere are other things that seem like it's more of a 14 ut ility, like the coated coils. I mean, is there 15 su pposed to be a distinction between these two in 16 th is? Because the coated coils save energy in the 17 fa ct that later, the coils are not destroyed. So you 18 ar e saving energy because you are not buying another 19 se t of coils, but it is not captured in the test 20 pr ocedure. 21 MR. HON: It can have a potentially major 22 im pact in the test depending on the quality and the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 ty pe of material you provided. And that may be 2 de pendent on the environment you are applying it to. 3 MR. EISNER: Yes? 4 MR. SACHS: If I could, the vinegar example 5 is really an industrial case, I guess, in two senses. 6 If we could pull back to the HVAC for just a minute, I 7 wo uld like to offer a straw man, which is that as I am 8 th inking about it, each of these options in almost 9 ev ery case has a significant expense. And that 10 ex pense -- again, I am brainstorming to try to get a 11 re solution -- probably is percentage-wise greater than 12 th e decrement to efficiency from including it, sound 13 tr aps, for example, of the coils. 14 Now, DOE has some interest in having lower15 co st models that it has to buy. Now, is there around 16 th at pair of factors a way that operationally we can 17 ag ree the DOE is going to be wanting to look at the 18 si mpler, more basic things for its actual testing and 19 ta king comfort that we might lose a little bit of 20 in dividual product savings by the time we get a 21 he avily coated coil, lots of sound traps and damper 22 de signs and everything else. So we are losing a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 li ttle bit on energy savings nationally for a few 2 pr oducts, but it is not likely to develop a lot of 3 le akage because of the incremental costs. 4 Is that a reasonable hypothesis? And is Tim 5 go ing to shoot? 6 MR. BALLO: I mean, my concern, I think it's 7 th e same with my phrase, that someone comes up with 8 so mething they call a coating for a coil and it 9 en ables them to make a really crummy coil because they 10 kn ow that you don't want that to be tested. They can 11 pu t a bad fan motor in it. They can do whatever they 12 wa nt because it's not going to be tested. 13 MR. AMRANE: But, again, we are not saying 14 th at it is not going to be tested. If that's where we 15 ar e, every unit is going to be tested with a 16 co nventional coil. That's maybe what we need to put 17 in there. You know, we are not going to be testing 18 th e unit with the coated coil. We are going to be 19 te sting the unit without. 20 MR. SACHS: The protection on that 21 pa rticular case, there certainly is or can be an ASTM 22 st andard for corrosion coatings.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 MR. BALLO: But if I am back down in 2 ma nufacturing and I only make coated coils, it is a 3 sh ame. You can't get one without the coating to test. 4 MR. AMRANE: That would be the base model 5 nu mber. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You would be having a 7 ha rd time being in the real world with just only 8 co ated coils. They are expensive. And so, you know, 9 I mean, I see it as there are ones on this list that 10 ar e used a lot of the time. Like we have said about 11 ec onomizers, they are used quite a bit. Coated coils 12 he ld -- these are like less than five percent options. 13 So they are very, very infrequently used. People only 14 bu y them when they truly want them. 15 MR. HURST: You are worried about the 16 lo opholes; right? 17 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 18 MR. HURST: Can't we put something in the 19 la nguage that says something around a no-loophole 20 cl ause, I mean, to this -- 21 We are talking about bad actors that would 22 go out and spray paint coils; right? I mean, I don't

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 th ink we would do that. I don't think most of our 2 co mpetitors would do that, but if you run across that 3 si tuation, there ought to be some language that says 4 th at is not an exclusion. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's the -- 6 MR. HURST: We saw them in a heartbeat. 7 MS. MEYERS: We would turn people like that 8 in . 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is a main 10 is sue, but at the same time, it's also the issue of -- 11 yo u know, it's one thing to have a small percentage of 12 th e market that is needed in close-to or below 13 st andards with intolerance or something like that. 14 It 's another thing for the Department to say that we 15 ha ve something on the market that we know is a 15 to 16 20 percent reduction in our standard and it's excluded 17 wh olesale, period, regardless of the situation or 18 re gardless of the person or regardless. So that just 19

-- you know, a wide exclusion like that, well, we 20 un derstand the utility and the necessity of that being 21 it 's hard for the Department to make a statement to 22 sa y, "Okay. Well, this wide exclusion is okay" across

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 th e board. Can't you do it another way? 2 MR. MANDYCK: Can't you require that every 3 ba sic model be tested? If your only basic model has 4 th ese features, then that is your basic model. 5 MR. STANONIK: That is your basic model. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the bad actor. 7 MR. AMRANE: They are only making that 8 ma ybe. 9 MR. STANONIK: We're talking about options 10 of f of a basic model. If the only thing a 11 ma nufacturer sells is this product with coated coils, 12 th at is not an option. That is his model. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if they make two -- 14 MR. STANONIK: Well, then you -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- a regular one and this 16 on e? 17 MR. STANONIK: If they make two and he is 18 ma king crappy coils that are coated or -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the regular one is with 20 th e minimums and the coated one is 20 percent below. 21 MR. EISNER: Is there an adjective -- 22 so mebody asked this a half-hour, 45 minutes ago -- an

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 ad jective you can put in front of corrosion that will 2 ad dress Tim's concern and some of the other problems 3 pe ople are having? 4 MR. RIVEST: I think I heard two ideas, that 5 on e there that if they are only put in models, that 6 be comes the basic model. I also heard that the 7 ma nufacturer must supply an uncoated model that is 8 id entical in every other respect to the testing 9 sa mple. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not sure that -- 11 MR. RIVEST: Well, you have more concerns 12 th an I do. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's true. 14 MR. FLY: We are talking about the things 15 th at are going to be excluded; right, that are out, 16 th e out things from DOE? And I guess in concept, at 17 le ast at this point, the conversation at least said 18 th at ERV and economizers -- I think the Department is 19 ki nd of nodding their head that that is okay. It 20 so unds like coated coils is something that the 21 De partment isn't ready to entirely agree with and -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fair.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 MR. FLY: You know, just trying to put it 2 al l in perspective, are we beating this dead horse? 3 Do we need to move on and -- because we are going to 4 go through this list again. 5 MR. AMRANE: Remember one thing. Let's say 6 th at we don't allow coated coil. It is going to be 7 do ne in the field, and you have no control about it 8 an yway. So, I mean, it is going to happen. 9 MR. WHITWELL: There are after-market 10 pe ople. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Now we are back to Harvey's 13 is sue -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it is 15 pe rtinent 16

-- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: -- where the field is doing 18 th e crappy quality and crappy installations and -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, from my perspective, I 20 do n't care to list them differently. You know, how 21 yo u want to list them, how you want to market them, 22 yo u know, at least from my perspective, it doesn't

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 ma tter. It is the minimum standards issue that is 2 re ally what we're talking about here. So to say that 3 th ere is a blanket exclusion for certain things that 4 we know can have significant impacts on the tested 5 ef ficiency, you know, I think that the Department is 6 pu t in a pretty awkward position to just blink at 7 th ose. You know, that is not to say that we won't 8 co nsider them, but I will say that those 9 co nsiderations and exclusions from my perspective, you 10 kn ow, may be more narrow than broad. 11 MS. MEYERS: You know, this is kind of a 12 di fferent area that if we want we could take offline, 13 bu t could the Department look at something kind of 14 li ke DOT does and like a CAT-based standard, average 15 pr oduct efficiency across -- because we are talking 16 co mmercial units, you know, definitely not advocate 17 th is in a residential market, but, you know, because 18 th ere are so many application-specific needs that we 19 ar e trying to meet as manufacturers, I mean, is that 20 so mething that we could work with? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. And in order to prove 22 yo ur average, you have to test all the different

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 co mbinations. Is that what you really want? 2 MR. STEPHENS: Why don't you just report the 3 nu mbers per year that you sold that had these features 4 wh ich were of concern? That would keep those guys 5 tr ying to skirt the system from -- they would realize 6 th at "Holy cow. They're going to know that we're 7 pl aying the basic model game," and they would need two 8 di fferent basic models. I mean, I don't have a -- 9 MR. FLY: So is what you are proposing that 10 if you are less than five percent of your total sales, 11 do n't worry about it kind of thing? 12 MS. MEYERS: All of these are very real 13 ne eds that the market has. It's not like we're 14 pu tting these options on there to get around a DOE 15 te st procedure standard or trying to gain anything. 16 Yo u know, this is a pain for us because, you know, you 17 do n't build that many of these. But, you know, you 18 ha ve got to do the bills, and you have got to keep 19 tr ack of it. These are one-offs. And, you know, what 20 a manufacturer wants is high production of the very 21 sa me thing. 22 What I am trying to figure out is we are

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 go ing to have the same discussion on every one of 2 th ese bullet points. And I don't know how we are 3 go ing to have it resolved. It is just I am just 4 tr ying to think of a different way that maybe we can 5 lo ok at this or approach this. I don't really have 6 th e answer. We can take it offline if you need to. 7 MR. RIVEST: Ashley would probably say if 8 yo u can't meet with this basic model platform of a 9 co ated heat exchanger, don't provide it on your -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: On that minimum baseline 11 he re. 12 MR. RIVEST: -- on the baseline provided on 13 yo ur -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The next one. 15 MR. MANDYCK: I guess my question is we've 16 be en operating this way for 30 years with the 17 De partment's knowledge. So where is the case where 18 fr aud has been reported and you have tested units and 19 yo u have seen a significant variation? Are we solving 20 fo r a problem that doesn't exist? 21 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. Along 22 th at same line, can we exclude every possibility? If

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 so meone is going to perpetrate a fraud, they are going 2 to do it. They are going to find some way to do that. 3 An d then the question is, how long can they remain in 4 bu siness? Who is going to buy from them? 5 MR. EISNER: Is that an exception to the 6 ex ception where the agency has indication or evidence 7 or complaints about fraud to the application of these 8 ex ceptions? They can test other equipment. 9 MR. DOPPEL: Absolutely. 10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to put that in the 11 do cument? Would that satisfy your concerns? I don't 12 kn ow what kind of information you get that leads you 13 to believe that it is fraud, but some definition of 14 in formation which you believe that you can test. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think that it is 16 th e tensile point; right, the fact that, you know, 17 th ere are some units, such as these, that should just 18 be subject to or could be subject to enforcement. And 19 th at would be that if we tested one and it was way 20 be low the standard, they would go through the 21 en forcement process just like any base unit would. So 22 wh en you are designing, you would keep that in mind.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 It is not to change the way you have been doing 2 bu siness for 30 years, but at the same time, you know, 3 it is something -- 4 MR. EISNER: Let's focus on -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So are you telling me you 6 ar e designing for below the standard? 7 MR. JOHNSON: The base model is meeting the 8 st andard. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: The base model -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you are cognizantly 11 pu tting things on, a combination of things on, a base 12 mo del that goes below the standard? 13 MR. JOHNSON: It may. 14 MS. MEYERS: We are also putting things on 15 th at base model that increase the efficiency. And we 16 ar e not claiming that either. So, you know, again, 17 it 's like the average product of this design. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thirty years in, but it is 19 go ing to be a gift. I mean, what do we want here? 20 MR. MANDYCK: I guess again -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not going to say, 22 "O kay. Keep doing it for another 30."

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 MR. MANDYCK: Where is the evidence of the 2 wi de-scale problem? I mean, I guess that has been the 3 is sue here. We don't have Harvey coming up to us and 4 sa ying, "You guys are cheating the law." We don't 5 ha ve consumers complaining to us. We don't have 6 en forcement action. This has been a system that has 7 se rved the country well and has saved a lot of energy. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do they know? 9 MR. BALLO: But we brave knowing the law 10 he re. The law says the manufacturer shall not put into 11 co mmerce a unit that does not comply with the 12 st andard. And if you are putting in a base model that 13 ju st meets the standard with a coated coil that takes 14 it below the standard that's violating the law. 15 MR. DOPPEL: But technically we are not 16 do ing that because what we are doing is we are 17 bu ilding HVAC systems that are being tested in test 18 la b conditions, which is the original intent. And 19 th en to that base model, for the convenience of 20 cu stomers, we are adding things that help promote 21 be tter installation, flexibility, usability of the 22 pr oducts that help prolong the use, that help energy

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 ef ficiency within that building. Because that is all 2 go ing at one time, it actually is saving more energy 3 be cause additional energy isn't spent to shift the 4 se parate components to that job site. Overall, there 5 is a savings of energy that is being done. 6 MR. MANDYCK: Well, in the case of the 7 co ated coil, the degradated coil will immediately 8 st art to lose efficiency. 9 MALE SPEAKER: Absolutely. 10 MR. MANDYCK: So what you have done is on 11 th e life cycle cost, you are saving a whole lot more 12 en ergy because you are maintaining the design 13 ef ficiency level, as opposed to having it degrade 14 ev ery year because the coil is degrading. 15 MR. AMRANE: We are having an academic 16 di scussion here because all of those options can be 17 pu t in the field. So yes, I mean, it would be done 18 an yway. So I am not sure what I am trying to -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: Or somebody in the field -- 20 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA. 21 Yo u know, a lot of the problems, you know, especially 22 th e detailee programs and other things, but in

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 ge neral, when you go to model equipment and you create 2 an energy model for a building, you stick in the SEER 3 ra ting or the EER rating into eQUEST. And it uses 4 so me approximation of how that unit performs on that. 5 Ha ving the correct number that sort of represents what 6 th e unit is is kind of important. And so a lot of the 7 pr oblems you have in predicting energy use have to do 8 wi th this stuff not really reflecting what is actually 9 ou t there in the field. 10 And as far as adding things that save, there 11 ar e a lot of things that are added to air handlers 12 th at don't necessarily increase its energy but has 13 ut ility. And the coatings, you know, I mean, you know, 14 I guess you could argue in the long run, it adds 15 en ergy, but there are other things that are added to 16 ai r handlers that don't really necessarily increase 17 th e energy efficiency but are required to operate in a 18 gi ven environment. And so they are more just a fact 19 of reality, but they don't necessarily actually 20 in crease the energy. 21 It would be nice to have a real 22 re presentation of how energy of a product that is out

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 in the field, how much energy it really uses, rather 2 th an the base model. I realize there are problems in 3 tr ying to create that base model in all this 4 di scussion we are having about how you add different 5 el ements on there and how you account for it, but 6 re alistically it would be nice to have something that 7 re flects the true energy use of a product that is out 8 th ere. 9 A lot of times when we go out to a building 10 an d want to figure out how much energy it is, they 11 st ick a bunch of dataloggers on the equipment and 12 mo nitor for three or four weeks. And then you create 13 yo ur own power curve. 14 Wouldn't it be nice if we had some idea when 15 we put a new piece of equipment on how much energy it 16 is using based upon some real test data that is 17 re flective of that? I realize the difficulties of it, 18 bu t realistically we are getting those numbers now. 19 MR. DOPPEL: But that's not the intent of 20 th is number. This is not an installed efficiency. 21 Th is is a -- 22 MS. MEYERS: A comparison between --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 MR. DOPPEL: -- base model -- 2 MS. MEYERS: Right. 3 MR. DOPPEL: -- efficiency. Well, but -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: The comparison between units 5 is not -- 6 MS. MEYERS: That's really all it is. It is 7 a comparison between units. 8 MR. DOPPEL: Every manufacturer, major 9 ma nufacturer, has a program that can be used that 10 ta kes that efficiency and applies it to a building and 11 al lows for economizer or other things to show how that 12 eq uipment is going to operate in the building. 13 MR. STARR: That does not adjust to SEER. 14 Le t's take the economizer. I mean, how does your SEER 15 ra ting change by adding an economizer to it? There 16 ar e no models. I mean, you are -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: We are not going to fix that 18 wi th this. 19 MR. STARR: Well, I agree. 20 MR. AMRANE: Outside. 21 MR. DOPPEL: Again, this is not installed 22 ef ficiency. You have to keep that separate.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 MR. STARR: Keep in mind the Department of 2 En ergy is supposed to model, and that is one of their 3 ru les. They are supposed to model the actual product 4 as to how it is used in commerce. So I understand 5 th at the air handler rating system is trying to 6 co mpare apples to apples, but what it is not really 7 do ing is measuring the actual -- 8 MR. AMRANE: What you want is what the SBC9 20 5 actually is trying to do. So hopefully there will 10 be information in the future, but this is not really - 11

- 12 MR. STARR: Yes. I mean -- 13 MR. AMRANE: -- why we are talking here 14 to day. 15 MR. STARR: Yes. I guess my point is I 16 re alize the difficulty in what they are trying to do 17 an d how manufacturers for the last 40 years or 30 18 ye ars have had a system which they can compare their 19 pr oducts to one another and engineers can make 20 de cisions based upon that and have an okay way of 21 ch oosing equipment. But at the same time, it would be 22 ni ce if that could be modified to more reflect the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 re al-world situation of energy use. And I think that 2 is what they are trying to achieve. Now, whether that 3 ca n be accomplished is another question. 4 MR. FLY: These metrics are not appropriate 5 fo r lower modeling. That is the problem. They are 6 ju st not. There isn't enough information there to do 7 it . 8 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 9 MS. MEYERS: All EER does is compare the 10 ba sic model efficiency between units. It is nothing 11 ab out an energy predictor. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Applied energy. 13 MS. MEYERS: Applied energy. 14 MR. EISNER: Is it appropriate to have a 15 ba sic model that nobody is buying as part of the test 16 th at is only there to pass some preliminary DOE 17 re quirements and then they're modifying it in ways 18 th at defeat the whole purpose of the program? I am 19 no t clear on that. I keep hearing people say, well, 20 th ey have got a statutory responsibility, but it is 21 on ly a basic model they are testing. What is the 22 pu rpose of the basic model if it is not to help you

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 ge t better information about efficiency? 2 So if there is clear fraud, with or without 3 ev idence now, are we setting up a system that can 4 al low for fraud and defeat the purpose of the system? 5 Yo u guys are all doing a good job. You are all trying 6 to make sure that you do it right. Are we creating 7 in centives for people to try and defeat the process? 8 MR. STARR: I don't think it's fraud. I 9 th ink it's more the technical discussion around how to 10 ac complish real-world measurement of the energy. So 11 it is not really that people are trying to skirt the 12 sy stem. It's just that the way the system is set up 13 no w doesn't really report the true base model or 14 so mething you would actually see. 15 MR. EISNER: Oh, yes. I will accept that, 16 bu t I have heard comments about people simply putting 17 a coat of paint on there for the purposes of avoiding 18 ge tting that product tested. And they give you a 19 ba sic model that -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: That was a -- 21 MR. DOPPEL: Nobody does it. 22 MR. EISNER: Nobody has ever done it doesn't

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 ne cessarily mean it is okay to allow it to happen in 2 th e future. 3 MR. MANDYCK: You know, we are not going to 4 be able to stop defrauding the people, no matter what 5 sy stem we design. So we have other mechanisms to 6 ad dress that in the definition of a base model. 7 MR. THARP: And, as an example, in AHRI, on 8 th e certification program, manufacturers submit our 9 co il information. We say the number of rows. We take 10 th e type of fin it is, the number of fin density, the 11 nu mber of circuits. We give a lot of detail about the 12 ph ysical parameters of the -- and that is checked when 13 we go through the AHRI program. So that is the base 14 mo del. And so we verify, it is verified, that the 15 ba se model being tested meets the manufacturer's 16 sp ecifications. And then that base model is verified 17 th at it meets the minimum efficiency requirements and 18 th en whatever is done as being supplied in the field, 19 I mean, the manufacturer, these manufacturers don't 20 re ally have a say in how they do or what they do after 21 th e fact and if it gets to a point where we have to go 22 ce rtify all of these models, that they do that. They

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 ca n stay. The manufacturer will stop offering these 2 op tions factory-installed. And somewhere somebody 3 wi ll start making these accessories, installing them 4 in , too. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: And it will be lower than the 6

-- 7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI. 8 To that end, is it possible with the Department -- you 9 do n't have to answer this now, but would it be 10 po ssible that we could have something that says, 11 in stead of -- these are all excluded from the test, 12 "I dentify these as items that can be added in field or 13 no t included in the test." And if there are any here 14 th at cannot be added in the field, then have a 15 di scussion about those. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but am I right? Are you 17 as king that we as manufacturers don't put them in in 18 th e factory and now we are pushing it back to the -- 19 MR. MYERS: I was suggesting a different way 20 of looking at what we are talking about here that 21 an ything that can be added in the field, we won't be 22 te sting because it is better if the manufacturer adds

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 it , getting back to the basic model concept. 2 MR. STANONIK: I think he is redefining the 3 li st as options or features which may be added in the 4 fi eld but which may also be provided by manufacturers. 5 MR. EISNER: This raises a good point. If 6 it can be added in the field, I assume DOE does not 7 ha ve the authority to regulate it if it's not being 8 ad ded by the manufacturer that you regulate. So if it 9 ca n be added in the field so that they can -- 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I -- 11 MR. EISNER: Go on. 12 MS. BARHYDT: It may vary under the 13 ci rcumstances. It is not a clear-cut -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's complicated. 15 MR. EISNER: Well, how would you make the 16 ar gument that you have to require the manufacturer to 17 me et a test that can be avoided by having someone else 18 in stall it in in the field and result in even more 19 qu ality? 20 Let me ask another question related to that. 21 I would assume based on a lot of warranties I have 22 se en that if it's modified by somebody other than the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 ma nufacturer, the warranty may no longer apply. Is 2 th at common? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill with Trane. I 4 wo uld say when I talk to lawyers about that, yes, we 5 as manufacturers are always going to kind of state 6 th at, but they all tell me that, in actuality, we 7 st ill may have to stand behind parts of that warranty 8 wh en it came down to the actual litigation. So now we 9 ar e going to stand up there and say, "It voids our 10 wa rranty," but they are all going to stand back there 11 an d go, "Jill, actually, when we go into court, some 12 of that is going to still be done." 13 MR. EISNER: Totally. This may -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, I am just saying 15 th ey hedged their bet on that one. 16 MR. EISNER: Yes, because what was done to 17 it in the field had absolutely no effect on the 18 pa rticular thing that failed. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Before we go this way, can 20 we go -- 21 MS. MEYERS: As a matter of policy, -- 22 MR. EISNER: Right.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 MS. MEYERS: -- from Rheem's perspective, we 2 wo uld clearly state that it would be a modification of 3 th e unit that was not in a specifically minimal range 4 wi th more than one -- 5 MR. EISNER: Let's take a 15-minute break 6 no w. 7 (Off the record.) 8 (On the record.) 9 MR. EISNER: Might we all get into our seats 10 ag ain? Our host would like to start off with a few 11 co mments with a list behind me. 12 MR. SACHS: I noticed I have been trying to 13 th ink through some things. We have evolved a long 14 wa ys -- can you flip that other light switch out? -- 15 in the last 30 years. In the work we do here, we see 16 th ree very different uses for ratings. And that's a 17 ge neralization. One of them is the product legal to 18 se ll; does it meet a minimum requirement? The second 19 on e, can we get enough information for a sensible 20 ut ility or other public benefits incentive program for 21 be tter equipment? And that is Louis Starr's focus. 22 An d the third one, which is yet again different, is

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 th e information required for engineering applications. 2 An d there are a lot of ways to approach that. 3 My concern here is that while we focus on 4 wh at is legal to sell, what meets minimum criteria, 5 th at we at least keep in the back of our minds whether 6 th e criteria here are even useful in these other two 7 ap plications and what information as a group outside 8 of this, not as a group but as individuals outside, we 9 ne ed to keep in our minds we can keep saving energy 10 an d making money through things here that are easy to 11 ap ply. End of rant. 12 MR. EISNER: Does anybody want to make a 13 co mment on that or question about it? 14 MR. HALLEY: Well, in support of the -- 15 ce rtainly, you know, the emphasis right here is on the 16 pr oduct itself, the boiler, the air conditioner, or 17 wh atever, but once you've got a certain efficiency, 18 yo u've got to put it in the right system, too, to 19 re ally get all the benefits of the things you've done 20 to improve the efficiency and get to a certain level 21 of efficiency. 22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts or comments?

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 Ye s? 2 MR. STARR: Louis Starr again. The thing 3 ab out the incentives -- I know we have talked a little 4 bi t about this earlier -- is that benchmark is very 5 go od. And the industry has essentially done that. 6 Bu t one of the things you really do is you have to 7 tr anslate this equipment to actually providing 8 in centives. The other thing is you go back later and 9 me asure how much energy you actually save. That has 10 to deal with some of the regulations with utilities 11 an d how they work. 12 So if you think you are saving a certain 13 am ount of energy, you sort of need to know. You need 14 to be accurate about that. You can't, say, you know, 15 do a mathematical calculation and have a theoretical 16 nu mber of how much energy. It actually gets measured 17 la ter. So the ability to connect the rating of the 18 eq uipment to actual savings in the field is pretty 19 im portant. I realize it's a very hard task, but it 20 wo uld be nice to have those things wind up. 21 MR. SACHS: I like AEDMs because they can 22 le ave resources for working on bullets 2 and 3. So if

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 we can flip down that light again? This is the end of 2 th e commercial. Return to our regularly scheduled 3 pr ogramming. 4 MR. EISNER: All right. As a result of the 5 me eting, DOE wants to talk about how they would like 6 to proceed now. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think generally, we 8 re alize that things have been done for a long period 9 of time, the way they have been done perhaps on a base 10 mo del and that the existing standards, which are for 11 ma ny times of commercial HVAC, which were the result 12 of consensus that then went through Congress, that are 13 st atutory now, may have been, you know, developed and 14 ag reed upon based on the base model concept and a base 15 mo del meeting them in compliance with that. 16 So I think in the near term, DOE is willing 17 to work through this list. This is not to say that we 18 ag ree with everything on it now. We are willing to 19 wo rk through a concept of this list in the base model 20 co ncept for today. 21 Now, that being said, some of the items on 22 th e list are things that DOE would treat differently.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 So , for example, we might set separate credit classes. 2 An d we would do a cost-benefit analysis to come up 3 wi th standards accordingly for those or we might do 4 so mething different through the test procedures 5 pr ocess or test procedure waiver process. We would 6 ad dress them in the appropriate manner. And, 7 ob viously, that would be an over-time thing. So it 8 wo uldn't be an immediate thing. 9 So I think from the Department's 10 pe rspective, we would like to hear explanations as we 11 ha ve heard throughout the morning of the rest of the 12 it ems on the list just for our benefit and then 13 re cognizing that we are willing to deal with the list 14 in the base model concept near term, but we want to do 15 so mething different long term. 16 MR. HURST: What does that mean? What does 17 "d o something different long term" -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think, for example, for 19 ce rtain ones -- I will go right to coated coils; 20 ri ght? Coated coils is something we would look at as a 21 pr oduct class issue. It provides a specific utility. 22 It has different costs. It would have different

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 be nefits. We would analyze that as a product class, a 2 se parate product class. And we would look at the 3 co st-benefit analysis of setting a different standard 4 fo r something with a coated coil and the potential of 5 th at. So it wouldn't be on a list as not applicable 6 to standards. It would be on the list as applicable 7 pe rhaps to different standards after we went through 8 th e appropriate analysis and rulemaking and that. 9 MR. AMRANE: So now you give it while 10 ma nufacturers are providing those units to test with - 11

- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. And this wouldn't be a 13 ne ar-term thing. I mean, for us to even get through 14 ru lemaking and make something like that, you are 15 lo oking at seven years out at least; right? 16 MR. AMRANE: Right, but eventually that 17 wo uld be -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: But there would be no 19 ad ditional testing; right? You would use your AEDM. 20 Th ere would be no testing, period. 21 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be that they would

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 be clearly subject to the standards and clearly 2 su bject to whatever standards may be applicable. And 3 it would be clearly subject to potential choosing by a 4 ve rification program or DOE one or industry one, one 5 de bt. And it wouldn't be now. It is a middle ground. 6 It is not meant to change the way you have been doing 7 bu siness for 30 years today, but it is a way that we 8 ca n work through what we believe are our legal 9 re quirements and our regulatory scheme and also be 10 re sponsive and flexible to you over time. 11 MR. AMRANE: And how would you address, 12 le t's say, what is quoted in the field? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know, Karim. I 14 do n't know the answers to everything. All I am saying 15 is from the Department's position, we would feel a lot 16 mo re comfortable that some of these things, you know, 17 yo u would address them in different manners. Some may 18 ne ed to stay on the list, just the list like this, 19 fo rever or, you know, for a long period of time. 20 Ot hers may need to be dealt with in a test procedure. 21 Ot hers may need to be dealt with in the standards 22 pr ocess through the product process. It's just that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 ou r avenues for dealing with this stuff are a little 2 di fferent than a blanket list, although this is what 3 we need to deal with today. You may want that. 4 MR. HURST: You may choose at some point to 5 go through the regular process. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 7 MR. HURST: You see commentary. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 9 MR. HURST: We would say, you know, that the 10 tr ade-off would be field application done poorly 11 ve rsus us pumping up -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we would have to weight 13 th at in our decisions, absolutely. 14 MR. HURST: Yes. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it would go through a 16 se parate process. I just want to make you guys aware 17 th at some of the uncomfortableness I think coming from 18 th e Department side is it is hard to say that -- you 19 kn ow, this isn't the normal way we do things. This 20 is n't the normal way we operate. So a blanket 21 st atement of "This is how we are going to operate is 22 ha rd for us." There are avenues that -- it may be

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 113 1 th at we come ultimately after notice and comment or a 2 st andard rulemaking and do our cost-benefit analysis 3 to the same conclusion, but then we have done it in a 4 ma nner that is consistent with the way we treat 5 ce rtain other products that also have utility or 6 sp ecific utilities for customer applications. So it 7 ma kes us comfortable, too. 8 MR. HURST: Thank you for the information. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it is not meant to say 10 do it tomorrow either. I mean, this allows a good bit 11 of time, a good bit of transition over time if there 12 is any transition that needs to happen, and allows you 13 gu ys to work with us continually to get that. I think 14 th at's what our position is at this time. 15 MR. BARHYDT: One of the issues John raised 16 wa s data. And so the rulemaking process would give us 17 th e opportunity to gather a lot more data and make us 18 a lot more comfortable with the ultimate approach. 19 An d so the idea is that in the short term, we 20 un derstand how you have been doing business. And so 21 we can work with this. But over time, we just need 22 mo re data to feel comfortable with this approach. And

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 114 1 so in the context of a rulemaking, maybe we end up 2 he re. Maybe we end up somewhere else, but at least at 3 th e end of the day, the Department will have a greater 4 le vel of comfort. 5 MR. MANDYCK: Well, I think that is a 6 re asonable approach or, maybe stated another way, when 7 yo u go through this process, we will decide what is on 8 th is list or what is not on this list. But when we 9 de cide what's on the list, then we come to consensus 10 on it, that will be the de facto way of doing business 11 un til you tell us otherwise, which may be through 12 ru lemaking, for example, where you may go into the 13 co ated coil issue and decide you may need to change 14 th e test procedure for how the product is -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 16 MR. MANDYCK: -- tested with a coated coil. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, absolutely. I think 18 th e idea here would be just to give you notice. We 19 ju st want to give you a sense that we are open to 20 de aling with it now. We are not trying to say 21 to morrow you need to completely change your business, 22 bu t we would like to continue working through it to a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 115 1 po int where we are comfortable, too, and it fits a 2 li ttle better with our regulatory process. 3 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik, Hussmann. I think 4 I would like to ask, since you are in a process where 5 yo u are going to be thinking about this, don't 6 di srespect HVAC, CRE because we have very similar 7 si tuations that we told our customers, "No. We cannot 8 do that." A very good scenario that you can picture 9 is customers, cases that are normally designed to be 10 op en cases, customers are now requesting doors be put 11 on those cases. And sometimes they want the premium 12 do ors. They have heated glass and heated perimeters. 13 Wh en you put a door, OEM, on a case, you change the 14 eq uipment classification. And when you put a door on 15 th ere that has heated glass and heated inserts, it 16 so metimes will not pass the DOE requirements. So we 17 ha ve to tell the customer, "No." So their recourse is 18 th at they have those doors installed in the field, 19 th ird party. 20 The end result is the case is much more 21 ef ficient with the doors on it, regardless of the heat 22 in the doors and the heated glass. It's just that it

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 116 1 wo n't pass the different energy requirement. So I 2 wo uld much rather see those be done OEM than be done 3 as field retrofits. It just makes for a better case. 4 It makes more sense in the long run. So you guys keep 5 th at in mind. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 7 MR. RIVEST: This would be a new product 8 cl ass than it is today. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 10 MR. SHEBIK: No, it isn't. 11 MR. EISNER: Other questions or comments? 12 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. This sounds 13 li ke a very reasonable approach. And one of the 14 th ings that I heard -- I'm not in this side of the 15 bu siness, but one of the things I've heard is concerns 16 ab out the interaction of these different ones, some 17 in creasing, some decreasing. So the combinations by 18 ta king this approach, we address what we need to 19 ad dress today, recognizing that, however complex or 20 no t complex, you have the option of dealing with it in 21 th e future. It seems reasonable. 22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. In an

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 117 1 at tempt to keep us moving into put some things to bed, 2 ar e there any things on this list that we have gone 3 th rough or are getting ready to go through? Can we 4 pu t "Yes," "No," or "Maybe," you know, from a 5 De partment standpoint or a consensus standpoint 6 be cause I think economizers and ERVs, it sounded like 7 we were close to agreeing on, probably close, much 8 le ss so. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think generally that is 10 tr ue. I don't know that we are ready to say, "Yes," 11 "N o," or "Maybe," specifically. 12 MR. FLY: Okay. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think one of the things we 14 wa nt to do is take this list back and think about it, 15 bu t we do want to hear the explanation and the why 16 be hind each of them. 17 MR. FLY: Okay. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if we could run through 19 th at real quick? I realize that, you know, we may 20 ha ve some questions, but in terms of what is in and 21 wh at is out discussion, I am not sure that either side 22 is ready to say definitely, "Yes," "No," or "Maybe."

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 118 1 MR. RIVEST: In the description, maybe we 2 ca n think about when the long-term vision might be for 3 be ing on and off the list. Is it procedure fixed? Is 4 it new product class and to be defined? 5 MR. EISNER: Yes, Phil? 6 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. From my 7 pe rspective, from an innovation perspective, I would 8 re ally support this method, not just now but going 9 fo rward because Neil made an excellent point there. 10 Ou r basic model is out there that had very low 11 mo vements because when you are innovating, the first 12 ti me you put a product out there, it might not be 13 ex actly what the market is looking for. So the 14 ma nufacturer will make small changes and have 15 de rivative products based off that. And so the basic 16 mo del that we had listed might not be the one that has 17 th e actual reports on an annual basis, but eventually 18 we get to the point where we get what the market is 19 ex pecting. So this process would come back to 20 in novation and ongoing changes with the market. 21 MR. EISNER: Other comments, thoughts? 22 Okay. Let's go back to the list and start

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 119 1 di scussing what you think about each of the issues, 2 st arting with I think hail guards. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Hail guards are commonly put 4 on or I should say common now. I don't know the 5 pe rcentage, actually, but they are put on, obviously 6 pr otect against hail damage to the exposed fin stop. 7 MR. EISNER: What? To the exposed what 8 st op? 9 MALE SPEAKER: To the exposed fin stop. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Exposed fin stop to the -- 11 be cause these are rooftop units. They are outside. 12 So depending on the design of those, they could 13 de crease the air flow through the condenser; 14 th erefore, higher condenser fan wattages; therefore, 15 ha ve an effect on the energy efficiency in EER at that 16 po int, again commonly put on in the field, all 17 di fferent kinds of versions of them. Some are less so 18 re strictive than others. It just depends on the 19 de signs. You know, some competitors come already with 20 co il protections. 21 MR. THARP: And it saves energy in the long 22 ru n because it adds energy --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 120 1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 2 MR. THARP: -- it does reduce air flow, but 3 af ter five years, if the coil is beat flat because of 4 ha il, then it is not getting any air flow or very 5 mi nimal. It is one of those we believe in long term 6 fo r those applications or issues, it probably is a 7 wa sh or slightly less energy consumption overall. 8 MR. WHITWELL: And there is a complication, 9 to o, because it is not just the hail coming down, but 10 it is hail bouncing off the roof, coming up. 11 MR. HURST: So, I mean, it is the same thing 12 as a grill on a car. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 14 MR. HURST: You can reduce the weight of the 15 au tomobile if you took the grill off the radiator, but 16 as bugs and rocks smash your radiator coil, it reduces 17 th e efficiency of it. So it serves the purpose for 18 en ergy efficiency over the long haul. 19 MR. EISNER: Other information on that that 20 pe ople want to provide? Any questions? 21 Next item on the list is dehumidification. 22 MR. THARP: Yes. And, again, these

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 121 1 co mponents, there are a lot of different ways that it 2 ca n be provided, but the primary purpose is to 3 ba sically allow additional moisture removal from the 4 ai r, which in the long run allows a higher ambient, 5 th e dry ball temperature to be run at. So the system 6 do esn't operate this long typically with the dehum 7 in stalled. So it may have to operate 30 minutes to 8 pu ll enough moisture out where you are comfortable at. 9 Li ke I said, it would be 3 degrees, but with the 10 de hum, you only have to operate 15 minutes to get it 11 do wn to 75 because you have enough moisture out where 12 yo u are comfortable. Those complements add a pressure 13 dr op into the system -- 14 MR. FLY: Reheat. 15 MR. THARP: -- and sometimes reheat. But, 16 ag ain, in the long run, as applied, it typically -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: It is an energy management 18 sc heme, and then it's -- 19 MR. THARP: It is an energy management 20 sc heme, yes. 21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. One of the things I 22 th ink we have to keep in mind is that these are things

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 122 1 th at the building owner needs to do anyway. So if he 2 is not going to do it through the rooftop or through 3 th e HVAC equipment, they are going to have to add a 4 se parate stand-alone dehumidification system to the 5 bu ilding, which has got to increase total energy usage 6 of it inspecting -- 7 MR. FLY: I do not believe it is a regulated 8 pr oduct. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right, which right now 10 10 0 percent outside air systems are not a regulated 11 pr oduct. There is not even a test standard for them. 12 MR. RIVEST: Sorry. Can you describe a bit 13 mo re? Is this part of the arbitration system or -- 14 MR. FLY: Well, I will give you two 15 ex amples. There are wet systems with a desiccant where 16 th ey basically have a little boiler and they boil 17 wa ter out of aluminum chloride and they spray, spray, 18 li ke the old spray coils, and poured water. The other 19 on e is what looks like a heat wheel. Only there will 20 be like a quarter section that they will run some 21 re ally high heat through, drive the moisture out of 22 th at so the desiccant in that wheel is really dry when

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123 1 it rotates over into the airstream that sucks the 2 mo isture out. And those are two common types of 3 de siccant dehumidifiers that are out there. 4 It is an alternate to doing it with 5 re frigeration, which is what we are more used to doing 6 in standard air conditioning, where there is cooler 7 ru ndown. So you might use it in a high use. If this 8 co nference room, if you wanted it to be a more 9 co mfortable room without freezing everybody to death, 10 yo u know, to get the moisture out, you may have 11 dr opped the temperature really low there. And if you 12 ha d dehumidifier in there, you wouldn't have to drop 13 th e temperature as low to get the moisture out of 14 th ere. 15 They are again one of these kind of niche 16 ma rkets, not use a whole lot of things but for -- 17 es pecially for process loads. I put one in years ago 18 in a toner plant for Xerox because they have to run 19 te n percent relative humidity or all the toner clumps 20 to gether as part of the process. 21 MR. SACHS: In space conditioning, we are 22 st arting to see a lot of exploration of innovative

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 124 1 ap proaches that may take the heat wheel and 2 in corporate it in the cycle in unusual ways. So it's 3 no t a bolt on the front end; the Cromer cycle has got 4 so me patent information on it and things like that. 5 It becomes a hard thing to take apart to disable that 6 un it. 7 MR. FLY: The other place you see it 8 co mmonly used is in grocery stores. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Grocery stores, yes. 10 MR. FLY: Because, you know, if you keep the 11 fr ost off the meat, they sell more meat. 12 MR. RIVEST: So it is sort of in the same 13 ca tegory as the heat pipes and the -- 14 MR. FLY: It is kind of. 15 MR. SACHS: Yes. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: They are addressing a little 17 di fferent, like you said, a little different, niche 18 an d not so much just people comfort but other issues 19 th at might be -- 20 MR. RIVEST: Process. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: -- process, paper mills, -- 22 MR. RIVEST: Right.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 125 1 MS. HOOTMAN: -- these things that have 2 th ings that are I won't say inducing more water into 3 th e space in -- 4 MR. RIVEST: I think more in terms of how 5 on e would treat it going forward, it is not really a 6 te st procedure issue. It is not a standard level 7 is sue. 8 MR. FLY: It would have to be a different 9 pr oduct class -- 10 MS. HOOTMAN: A different product class and 11

-- 12 MR. FLY: -- class to be treated properly, 13 co nnected, and need its own testing. But, that being 14 sa id, if we throw it in our standard packaging, then 15 th ere is a hefty pressure drop in on the regenerative 16 si de where they are blowing 400-degree air in one side 17 of that wheel, a lot of times that is putting the heat 18 ba ck into the airstream, which then you have to run 19 yo ur compressors harder to overcome. So the net 20 ef fect would be you would use more energy and could 21 th row you outside of the standards. 22 Now, that being said, if we don't sell it,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 126 1 th en it's bolted as the next box on the roof standing 2 al one. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. There is a separate -- 4 MR. FLY: So we haven't changed anything. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: They may just be systems, and 6 th ey're not HVAC systems in a way. They are not doing 7 al l the heating, ventilating, and air conditioning, 8 ju st these systems. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And then there is 10 an other approach where it is incorporated in as part 11 of the refrigeration system, the cooling or heating in 12 th e case of the cooling system. And it is an extra 13 ad ditional coil that is in the airstream and can be -- 14 yo u know, it actually could operate partly as an 15 ev aporator, part as a condenser so that you are taking 16 ad ditional moisture out of the air because part of the 17 is sue is as our units become more efficient, the 18 se nsible heat factor increases. So the system if it 19 is just the air conditioning unit system takes less 20 mo isture out of the air. And so we have these 21 ad ditional coils in there to help to take out more 22 mo isture out of the air. So you have got this, it's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 127 1 in the indoor airstream, that is additional pressure 2 dr op. And so, although it is not in operation during 3 th e test procedure. It's adding the pressure drop, 4 wh ich does cause more fan power, which will impact the 5 ra ted EER billing. 6 MR. FLY: It may not necessarily rate it as 7 80 .67. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. You don't need it at 9 80 .67. 10 MR. THARP: And you get into a real-life 11 ap plication if you are removing moisture before you 12 ge t to your evaporator coil. Your evaporator coil is 13 go ing to run at a higher evaporation temperature, 14 wh ich lets the refrigeration system operate more 15 ef ficiently. 16 MR. EISNER: Other information? Questions? 17 Okay. The next one is indoor fan motor, 18 VF D. 19 MR. THARP: Variable frequency drive is 20 ap plied to a door motor that allows turndown of the 21 in door air flow rate and reduces the indoor fan power 22 wh en you don't need it as much. If you have a two-

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 128 1 st age system, it allows you to run at a low air flow 2 ra te on a low-stage or a multi-stage system, variable 3 sp eed system. And so it improves the seasonal part 4 lo ad performance of the unit, but because the VFD 5 it self actually increases the power consumption at 6 fu ll load, probably most single digit percentage-wise, 7 it hurts the test efficiency. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: And there is a heat factor 9 th ere, too. 10 MR. THARP: And spawn effect, yes. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Spawn effect. And then it's 12 in the space. It has heat, generates heat. 13 MR. RIVEST: Is this being looked at in the 14 te st procedure? 15 MR. WHITWELL: Well, IEER, there are prongs 16 fo r this. I mean, this is where you get the benefit 17 of this, in an IEER. 18 MR. RIVEST: But not in an EER? 19 MR. WHITWELL: No. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is a near-term issue. 21 MR. RIVEST: Okay. So this could come off 22 th e list at some point.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 129 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we happen to make a 2 mi gration to IEER. 3 MR. EISNER: Information or questions? 4 Okay. Condenser fan motors, options for 5 du cting? 6 MR. WHITWELL: We have a product that is 7 du cted both evaporator and condenser. And so we have 8 di fferent fan motor options to handle different 9 ap plications where they might have different length 10 du ct, indoor, from where the unit is to the outdoor. 11 Ju st like what we would have on the indoor fan motor, 12 wh ere we have different fan motor options to deal with 13 di fferent applications on this particular product, we 14 ha ve different outdoor fan motor options to deal with 15 di fferent application requirements. 16 MR. FLY: The current test procedure creates 17 th e outdoor fan as basically being -- 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. This is not covered in 19 th e test procedure currently. 20 MR. FLY: So is the product there for this - 21

- 22 MR. WHITWELL: Pardon?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 130 1 MR. FLY: Is the product covered and 2 in spected on the -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just because it can't be 4 ac counted for in the test procedure doesn't mean it's 5 no t covered. It means that you may need a test 6 pr ocedure waiver. I am not saying it is or it isn't 7 in this case. I don't know enough off the top. But 8 to the extent it needs a definition, like small 9 co mmercial package or large or very large, that is how 10 we determine coverage, based on our definitions. And 11 th en, you know, to the extent it can't be tested by 12 th e regulatory test procedure means that you need to 13 co me get a waiver. 14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. This particular product 15 co uld be covered in the vertical packaged equipment. 16 It could fall in there. We choose not to put it in 17 th ere. So we are actually measuring ourselves to a 18 hi gher energy efficiency standard than we could. We 19 co uld be going to the vertical packaged equipment, 20 wh ich is a significantly lower energy efficiency 21 st andard, but we are rating it with a standard outdoor 22 mo tor.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 131 1 MR. JOHNSON: This could also be an option, 2 ma ybe not adopted, but it could be an adoption for 3 so und attenuation on condenser fans, too. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, the reason why 5 yo u adopt outside air is several. One, buildings 6 in side, like a parking garage -- 7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, you need to duct 9 th at air outside and get fresh air because there is 10 no t fresh air coming. So you have got to do something 11 wi th it. Gosh, I've got it even in my plant, where 12 I' ve got little suboffices within a plant that is 30 13 fe et high. So there are different ways, you know, that 14 yo u are going to use that because of -- 15 MR. FLY: Some high rise buildings where you 16 ha ve mechanical floors -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 18 MR. FLY: -- every so many floors. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 20 MR. FLY: There are several things. 21 MR. EISNER: Anyone have additional 22 in formation or any questions?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 132 1 MR. STARR: So you are saying if you are 2 br inging in outside air to the unit, that is not 3 co ming off of the louver? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: The ducting. 5 MR. STARR: But that is quite a few. It 6 se ems like that might -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: You are ducting it to the 8 ou tside air, ducting it to outside air. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Just talking about, 10 in our cases, we are talking about, low hundreds. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Oh, yes. 12 MR. FLY: The issue is that there may be 13 se veral different fan selections depending on -- 14 MS. HOOTMAN: How much you can -- 15 MR. FLY: -- the job requirements. And it 16 is not -- 17 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. There are four or five 18 di fferent motors that can be selected. 19 MR. FLY: So we are going to talk. I mean, 20 th at is kind of like the same issue as the high static 21 in door fan. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Exactly.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 133 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 2 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any more information or 3 qu estions about this? 4 Okay. Microsoft telling us hydronic is not 5 po ssible for some reason. Steam hydronic heat 6 op tions, increase cooling, electrical, et cetera. 7 MR. THARP: Basically you put a coil for a 8 he ating mode in the airstream, increases the pressure 9 dr op that the cooling has to operate against. So it 10 de creases the efficiency in the cooling mode. Those 11 ty pes of options are a lot more energy efficiency in 12 th e heating mode than the option of the other 13 al ternative strip. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Electric heat. 15 MR. THARP: Electric heat. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Electric heat. We are using a 17 he ating system which was electric resistance heat. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, electric strip -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: And adding that steam and 20 hy dronic -- 21 MR. WHITWELL: Electric strip means electric 22 re sistance here.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 134 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And so the steam and hot 2 wa ter heat options that are being put in there are 3 mo re efficient, in more building efficiency, but there 4 is a net effect on the cooling side because they add 5 pr essure drop, they add fan heat, and so on the 6 co oling side will actually drop your cooling 7 ef ficiency due to the fact that those options were -- 8 MR. FLY: And the current standards address 9 el ectric heat, and they address gas heat. They do not 10 ad dress hydronic heat. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So that is like the 12 st andards maybe. I don't know. 13 MR. FLY: It seems to fit more like an 14 ec onomizer. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the tit for tat like an 16 ec onomizer. 17 MR. STARR: I mean, in reality, I am not so 18 su re more is efficient, but it is more of a utility if 19 yo u have -- you know, if you are infusing the hydronic 20 sy stem, then you are bringing up hydronic coil in an 21 ai r handler. So it is more the factories meeting the 22 de sign application.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 135 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. But likely the design 2 wa s picked for hydronic for the fact that hydronic is 3 ov erall going to give them better efficiencies than 4 th e choice that they could have had. 5 MR. THARP: Yes. I mean, keep in mind 6 el ectric is 100 percent efficient. So it just costs a 7 lo t more to keep electric on. It's not so much it's 8 ef ficient. 9 MALE SPEAKER: Heat pumps are 300 percent 10 ef ficient. 11 MR. THARP: That is true. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other information? 13 Ot her questions, any questions? 14 All right. That takes us to lower BTU gas 15 he at options. 16 MR. FLY: In reality, this probably belongs 17 in the bucket of decreased test energy because what 18 AA ONians do is they will typically offer two or three 19 ga s heat options and when we do our testing, we will 20 te st with the most restrictive. So if we offer a 200, 21 30 0, 400, we will test with a 400, but then we also 22 of fer a 300 and a 200, which reduces electrical

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 136 1 co nsumption on the boiler. But we rate them all the 2 sa me. That one really probably ought to be up in 3 th is. 4 MALE SPEAKER: But that is not really 5 so mething we are asking for an exclusion. 6 MR. WHITWELL: No. It is a grouping that we 7 ar e -- 8 MALE SPEAKER: It is a grouping. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: It is a grouping. 10 MALE SPEAKER: And part of this is just 11 sh owing -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 13 MALE SPEAKER: You don't care. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is going to be the most 15 ex pensive. 16 MR. THARP: We want to make sure that it is 17 ou t there that this is something that -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Appreciate it. No. 19 Ex planations are very helpful, to say the least. 20 MR. EISNER: Any more on this one? 21 All right. That takes us to these: 22 in creased test energy and increase supply of energy.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 137 1 Th e first one is hot gas reheat. 2 MR. FLY: Which we talk about there being a 3 no tification. That is that report when it is put 4 do wnstream of the evaporator coil. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 6 MR. FLY: So as long as we have got them in 7 th e right category, I am not sure that, you know -- it 8 is a dehumidification device. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Steam. 10 MR. FLY: Steam design. But it does add 11 pr essure drop to the airstream and add pull load. 12 It 's not running. So it doesn't do anything for your 13 ef ficiency. It is just adding extra pressure drop. 14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else you want 15 to add? Questions? 16 High static indoor blowers, oversized 17 mo tors. 18 MR. JOHNSON: This is a good point that Mark 19 ma de earlier. There are some systems you talk -- you 20 me ntioned the hospital application, where you run at 21 fo ur inches of static. And building applications had 22 a huge range of static requirements. Manufacturers

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 138 1 wi ll offer multiple blower options, oversized motors, 2 et cetera. And the base model may have a 5-horsepower 3 mo tor, but it could be offered even with a 30- 4 ho rsepower motor that is built for the indoor blower 5 to get to some very, very high -- that is very high 6 st atic applications. 7 MR. FLY: Okay. And that unit won't run 8 ef ficiently at the test failure conditions, and it is 9 po ssible that it won't run at all on advanced 10 li ghting. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I actually -- you said it 12 wo n't run efficiently at those conditions, but if you 13 we re to say test at the static that it was intended to 14 be used for -- I'm not saying that this is the right 15 ap proach, but would it run efficiently and be able to 16 me et the standards? 17 MR. FLY: It would run efficiently. It 18 pr obably would consume -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's still a lot. 20 MR. FLY: -- a lot more energy because it's, 21 yo u know -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: The wattage itself would?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 139 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It still wouldn't be the 3 sa me? 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably, but I will go back 5 to not necessarily have the operating maps tested out 6 th at 7

-- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, yes. No. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- someone would have to 10 fi gure 11

-- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it purely a test 13 pr ocedure model or is it a combination? And it seems 14 li ke it is pretty much a combination. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right. 16 MR. FLY: I mean, it is really a rating 17 nu mber problem in that that is not what the rating is 18 se t at. That is not the standard condition. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And I can deal with 20 th at. I could change the standard conditions for 21 th is, but it still won't get you to -- 22 MR. FLY: And then where are you going to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 140 1 pu t it at? Are you going to have one for one, two, 2 th ree, four, five, six? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You need to be a level 2. 4 Th at's what I'm trying to -- I mean, it's a twofold. 5 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe it's a new class: 6 high static application; right? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would have to define 8 wh at high static application is. So I think -- 9 MR. WHITWELL: I understand. 10 MR. FLY: And just as a point of 11 in formation, if you go through the water source, heat 12 pu mp ISO standard, what it actually does is let you 13 ru n that fan at any static, but it normalizes it back 14 do wn -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We had talked about that. 16 MR. FLY: -- to the standard rating 17 co nditions. So it kind of lets you put that 30- 18 ho rsepower motor in there, but it makes this huge 19 ad justment that breaks it out. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: What about something you 21 co uld do here? 22 MR. FLY: I think it could be done, but it

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 141 1 wo uld take a lot of work? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Theoretically it sounds like - 3

- 4 MR. FLY: Yes. It sounds like something we 5 co uld do. And it's not in the current -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That could be our goal over 7 ti me, perhaps. 8 MR. FLY: Perhaps, but we would need to 9 in vestigate. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Okay. 11 MR. FLY: We all would need to investigate. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Okay. 13 MR. EISNER: Other information? Questions? 14 All right. Parametric relief, powered 15 ex haust, powered return air. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: All different ways that you 17 de al with pressurization that happens within a 18 bu ilding. All of us go up to a building like this and 19 we pull open the doors. And they are either hard to 20 pu ll open or they are blowing open in our faces. And 21 th at is all because there has been more air introduced 22 in to the system, and it has to get out of the building

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142 1 so meway. One of the ways for that to happen is through 2 a system through our package units. And those are all 3 ki nds of devices that are kind of around that. 4 MR. FLY: And they are kind of linked with 5 th e economizer. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 7 MR. FLY: They had to do with relieving air 8 on outside air and how much outside air the unit takes 9 in as part of its design. You may not need much if 10 it 's a low strip center with very short ductwork, but 11 in a building like this, if you were -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Where you had bathroom exhaust 13 an d all these other exhaust fans that are happening, 14 th ey are outside of the HVAC system. You had to deal 15 wi th that, the fact that there are all of these other 16 ai r ductions. So it is a building control system. 17 Bu t if those devices are not energized within the 18 st andard, test standard right now, they do cause that 19 pr essure drop. 20 MR. WHITWELL: But, similar to other things, 21 if they weren't in this equipment, they would be 22 se parate, stand-alone devices --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 143 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- that would be in the 3 bu ilding somewhere. 4 MR. AMRANE: Which would be -- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Stand-alone some of them get 6 co vered under the commercial blowers and fans 7 re gulation. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: New one. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So stand-alone, you 10 kn ow, an exhaust fan, I would -- a new one would be 11 un der -- 12 Interesting, John. 13 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know what that was, 14 bu t I want to find it. 15 MR. EISNER: All right. Anything else on 16 th is one? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: And, actually, probably fresh 18 ai r dampers in their metric relief really shouldn't be 19 to gether because then it's all still addressing the 20 ou tside air and relief. They are all addressing the 21 sa me situation. 22 MR. WHITWELL: And ventilation requirements,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 144 1 ev en without an economizer. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. EISNER: High efficiency air filtration. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: So, just like Mark has 5 de scribed, the hospital has all different kinds of 6 ap plications for filtration. Those options can range 7 fr om just a nice little higher grade than the bird 8 ca tcher, as some people call it, to we're taking out 9 di seases -- 10 MR. FLY: Right. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- like in a hospital -- 12 MR. FLY: Ninety-nine percent of the time. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: -- diseases and bacteria and 14 al l that kind of stuff like that. They all introduce 15 pr essure drop. 16 MR. FLY: Some of them a lot. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of them a heck of a lot, 18 ba ck to the high static applications. 19 MR. RIVEST: You specify a standard basic -- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that every unit 21 ha s just the standard basic -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that every unit

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 145 1 ha s just the standard, you know, consideration for a 2 st andard basic. 3 MR. FLY: It's a box. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Bird center. Small birds. 5 Yo u could get ones about that big. 6 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this one? Hot 7 ga s bypass? 8 MR. WHITWELL: That's -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it's not. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Capacity? This is for 11 ca pacity control? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: This is capacity control. So 13 gu ess where we figured out that this has a lost energy 14 be cause of the pressure drop that it adds. 15 MR. STARR: It had more of an effect that 16 IE ER is the leverage. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 18 MR. STARR: You are feeding gaps back that 19 we normally dump to the condenser you are feeding back 20 in to the evaporator. So -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. This is a hydration 22 cy cle.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146 1 MR. STARR: -- instead of throwing the heat 2 aw ay or kicking it back in. 3 MR. FLY: But you are false loading the 4 ev aluator. 5 MR. STARR: Yes. I mean, what it is really 6 do ing is you are controlling your discharge air 7 te mperature so that your supply air is going down the 8 du ctwork so you don't lose control of your system down 9 th ere. You use typically smaller units. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And the thing that I'm 11 sa ying is that at the test standard point, it probably 12 is not energized, but I guess you had it here because 13 it is adding a pressure drop. Those devices are 14 ad ding a pressure drop in the refrigeration system. 15 Okay. So there is not an air refrigeration 16 pr essure drop. It's those devices, those valves that 17 ar e put in there would add pressure drop into the 18 re frigeration system. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are we talking about 20 he re? 21 MR. THARP: Some of these units -- go back 22 to coated coil -- coated coils, coil is probably a low

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 147 1 si ngle digit, maybe one percent system efficiency. 2 An d that one may be even less. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, in the next two 4 we eks when you go to consider, I mean, think about 5 th at because in some sense, you know, if there are 6 on es that are really small -- I won't say negligible, 7 bu t I realize the cumulative effects of. If there are 8 on es that are small in nature, you know, that we could 9 wh ittle down, I think that is a good place to start, 10 bu t I do realize the cumulative effects as they start 11 to add up. 12 MR. STARR: I think it is more at your part13 lo ad values, it is where you would start to see you 14 ar e adding heat back in the system, but you are not 15 ge tting 16

-- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 18 MR. STARR: The hot life passes you, just a 19 va lve that opens or closes. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which isn't so much an issue 21 no w but could become an issue. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. And it's really

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 148 1 st ated here more for that added effect that we said, 2 yo u know. 3 MR. RIVEST: Would that benefit be captured 4 in a changed metric? What is the benefit? 5 MR. STARR: You know, the best way to do it 6 wo uld have multiple stages of correction, rather than 7 du mping hot baths. I mean, the example would be you 8 dr ive around town and you need to slow down. So you 9 pu t on the brake at the same time, instead of laying 10 of f the gas or, you know, a stage one would be where 11 yo u have a two-speed lawnmower: fast and slow. You 12 kn ow, the more stages you have, that would be an 13 au tomatic transmission. So, really, the best way is 14 no t -- 15 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry. Just in terms of 16 A/ C, what is the benefit to the consumer? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Before the days of multiple 18 co mpressor options and staging and compressors 19 be cause, really, those are new, this was a way that 20 yo u got the ability of the system to crank itself back 21 do wn. With a big compressor or a big circuit, it was 22 a way to get it to crank back down. So you think

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 149 1 ab out a theatre, and you had one rooftop unit. And it 2 is serving multiple theatres. And you all really only 3 ha ve one movie going at that time. You really only 4 wa nted part of the coil and part of the compressor to 5 re ally run that part. So this was a way that you kind 6 of use that. I would say in the future, it is going 7 to kind of probably die, but, yet, the replacement 8 bu siness is out there. I am not quite sure -- 9 MR. FLY: The other point that is getting 10 us ed a lot is in makeup air units, which are like -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes. 12 MR. FLY: -- covered product but, you know, 13 if you want 55-degree air and it's 56 outside and you 14 wa nt to turn the compressor on and you need 1 degree, 15 th en maybe if it's critical to you, that you will run 16 th at compressor and -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 18 MR. FLY: -- offload 90 percent of it to get 19 10 . And a lot of the compressor technologies have a 20 li mit to how far they will turn down. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: There you go. 22 MR. STARR: 90.1 also limits how much you

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 150 1 ca n do to -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. STARR: It is comparatively inefficient, 4 in efficient way of doing it. What I have seen out in 5 bu ildings is that you get a small unit. If you get to 6 sm all loads with very few people in the room, the 7 th ing turns on and turns off. It turns on, and it 8 tu rns off. There is already a need for -- 9 MR. FLY: That, too. 10 MR. STARR: So it cycles a lot, but it would 11 se em better if we could come up with a newer 12 te chnology that's not just dumping heat back in the 13 sy stem to get the correct discharge air temperature by 14 st aging your compressor -- 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 16 MR. STARR: -- or having staged compressors. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: And I would agree, Louis, that 18 I think that there are ways we are going to move 19 to wards that, but I still worry about the fact that we 20 ha ve a huge industry. We are over 60 percent 21 re placement. And we have replace systems that were 22 de signed this way to some extent unless they want to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 151 1 do major renovations to the zones and change the zones 2 an d the way that the zones work. 3 MR. STARR: Don't they have to meet the new 4 co de anyway? 5 MS. HOOTMAN: It's new construction, 6 AS HRAE's new construction. And it depends on what 7 st ate it is if they have said that major renovation is 8 un der ASHRAE or not. 9 MR. STARR: That's true. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Some states are not. 11 MR. STARR: Yes. Hopefully one would be 12 re designing their system to accommodate the new code, 13 bu t it depends on what size and how much equipment. 14 MR. FLY: It is a permanent load device. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is a permanent -- 16 MR. FLY: It doesn't really have a big 17 ef fect on the load other than the pressure drop a -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: And I will say that it is 19 di minishing. 20 MR. STARR: Well, if it's not a full load 21 co ncern as far as the test procedure, then it doesn't 22 ne ed to be up there; right?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 152 1 MR. FLY: The test procedure -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: But it has an effect on the 3 pr essure drop. 4 MR. STARR: But that is very little; right? 5 I mean -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. In itself, it is. It is 7 th at additive effect that we talked about that, you 8 kn ow, had a hot gas reheat system on it, doesn't have 9 an economizer, dah dah dah this. 10 MR. STARR: Okay. So the -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: And now I am inching into my 12 fi ve percent a lot. 13 MR. EISNER: Good. We have gone through 14 th is one. Next issue, sound traps. 15 MR. FLY: Okay. This usually applies to 16 ve ry large equipment. These are devices that 17 ty pically can be put in the duct or can be put inside 18 th e unit. And that is a space design request from an 19 ow ner. And they are to reduce the sound coming from 20 th e fans and anything else in the system so that the 21 sy stem is quiet for like a conference room or 22 wh atever.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 153 1 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, in the DOE Building 2 an d you know how we hear all that -- 3 MR. FLY: They need a sound trap. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It needs a sound trap on it. 5 MR. FLY: But they can have a significant 6 pr essure drop, especially if they are doing a lot of 7 wo rk. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Associated static pressure. 9 MR. FLY: The associated static pressure. 10 So as we were just going through the list of anything 11 we could think of that could possibly -- you don't see 12 th em in five-ton units. 13 MR. STARR: Isn't the sound trap downstream 14 of the air handler, though? If it is in the air 15 ha ndler, it is -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be upstream or 17 do wnstream. 18 MR. JOHNSON: You have got to realize -- 19 MR. STARR: That's expensive. 20 MR. JOHNSON: -- that the bigger you get, 21 th e more flexible you get. Our customers would rather 22 ha ve you put it in in a factory than put it in. You

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 154 1 ar e putting more and more of the mechanics in a box. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: You saw those. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any additional 4 in formation? Questions? 5 Fire slope isolation dampers? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Same kind of thing. They're 7 al most placed in kind of the same place in the 8 ai rstream. They can either be put -- these are always 9 go ing to be in a building, no question about it. 10 Th ere are just some customers who ask us to put them 11 in side the unit, instead of inside the curve or inside 12 th e ductwork, that is going to isolate the HVAC if it 13 we re to have a problem in fire from the rest of the 14 bu ilding and/or schemes where you are pressurizing 15 pa rts of the building and other parts where there is 16 sm oke so that you can keep smoke from other parts of 17 th e building. There are all kinds of building schemes. 18 MR. FLY: Much of the unit is on common 19 du ctwork. So they put dampers in there that normally 20 wo uld be in the duct but maybe you're putting in in a 21 hi gh-bay building and it's 30 feet to it and a damper 22 is a mechanical rise that needs service. So they

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 155 1 wo uld like to move it up in the unit, where you can 2 op en the door of the unit and actually service the 3 de vice. That's the reason we want them in our unit, 4 be cause it may not be accessible. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Easier to -- 6 MR. FLY: But they do have a pressure drop 7 as sociated with them. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 9 MR. EISNER: Anything else? 10 UV lights? 11 MR. THARP: Indoor air quality, high 12 de vices. They consume a fairly small quantity of 13 en ergy, have a very small pressure drop associated 14 wi th it. Again, that is a very -- hot gas bypass, 15 wh ere it's very almost negligible at test conditions. 16 MR. FLY: That is getting into small units. 17 I am not sure that the electrical energy -- 18 MR. STARR: Yes. If you drop down to -- 19 MR. FLY: They're like a 40-watt bulbs. So 20 40 watts can make or break in a 3-ton unit. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: In 325 or 326, that can really 22 sc rew you up.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 156 1 MR. DOPPEL: But it helps keep the coils 2 cl ean so that they operate more efficiently. 3 MR. FLY: Kills mold and -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: Kills molds and mildew. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: No more Legionnaire's disease 6 ki nd of thing. 7 MR. EISNER: Anything additional? Louis? 8 MR. STARR: Yes. I was just going to say I 9 th ink they left off blenders, which happens a lot in 10 cu stom units. You have to make them long and narrow. 11 So typically the package equipment, they won't -- 12 MR. FLY: If we get it on our list, we won't 13 ad opt the list. We can add it on our master list but 14 co nsolidate it. 15 MR. STARR: But it essentially mixes your 16 ai r so that you don't have -- 17 MR. FLY: Right. 18 MR. STARR: -- a stratification across your 19 co il. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 21 MR. STARR: But in custom units, a lot of 22 ti mes there's a pipe requirement because the buildings

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 157 1 yo u don't want to look over and see an air handler. 2 So they want to make them long. And so what happens 3 is you get these like pancake-looking-like units that 4

-- 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Pancake ductwork? 6 MR. STARR: Similar. Yes. I don't know. 7 Fo r the custom unit air handler guys that will have a 8 pr essure drop, it is basically introduces pressure 9 dr op so that the flow is even coming off of the 10 bl ender. And it seems -- 11 MR. FLY: So the object is to mix cold, 12 ty pically cold, outside air with return air evenly. 13 MR. STARR: So you don't freeze the -- 14 MR. FLY: It does not apply in our standard 15 te st conditions, by the way, but it is a pressure drop 16 th ere. 17 MR. STARR: Yes. It will be in the unit, 18 an d it will be an extra pressure drop like your 19 da mpers thing. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. To be fair, the list 21 th at we have that this came from was much longer than 22 th is. And we tried to condense and pare it down. So

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 158 1 th ere are other things that probably need to be added 2 to this list from the big list that we had. I mean, 3 th is was something that was done, finished up at 7:45 4 th is morning. So there is more work that I think 5 th at, you know, we need a little bit more time to come 6 up with a more exhaustive list. 7 MR. FLY: When we are getting input at 4:00 8 a. m.? 9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. It is not even on 10 th is list. 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Ashley, I think you were 12 as king, so when we go and we update this list and we 13 wo rk on it in the next two weeks, I don't know if we 14 pu t a -- I hate red, yellow, green things, but, you 15 kn ow, something that says that it is a really, really 16 sm all effect to the system. Should we do some kind of 17 fo otnoting or something? I don't know if that helps. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that would be 19 he lpful. I mean, I think to the extent, you know, to 20 ge t us to a comfortable level and really understand 21 ho w these things may impact, you know, you can put a 22 co lumn that says, you know, "By themselves, small,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 159 1 me dium, large, less than one percent," you know, 2 de finitely more than five, whatever it is, and that 3 ob viously -- you know, if there are some that were -- 4 yo u know, obviously there are some on the list that I 5 th ink that it is going to be a no-brainer for everyone 6 ar ound the table. There are others that we are going 7 to have to understand a little bit more to feel 8 co mfortable as we work through the list. So the more 9 in formation you can provide, it is about magnitude or 10 wh ich options are likely to be put together. 11 I mean, I realize that everything seems to 12 be , you know, we will put together all of these if the 13 cu stomer really asks for them, but for us to 14 un derstand, you know, do these really -- you know, is 15 th is typical kind of thing so we can just get a -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: So a more inclusion rate kind 17 of thing? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, just so we can 19

-- 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Inclusion rate or low 21 in clusion rate? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Get a sense of what is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 160 1 re ally going on and how this really will impact, you 2 kn ow, the statements going forward. 3 And then, you know, the third part of this 4 wo uld be for those that are full-load issues but go 5 aw ay with, you know, part-load issues or IEER issues, 6 th at would be helpful to know. And then others, 7 ob viously, we think are product class issues that we 8 wo uld need to consider. And then we'll get you 9 st arted. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: And even though we've gone 11 th rough and said this all in words, do we need to go 12 ba ck and kind of make a definition of all of those 13 wo rds? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we will have to come 15 up with a definitive, discrete explanation when we put 16 th em in the right text. Now, if you guys want to take 17 a first shot of it, that would be absolutely 18 wo nderful. 19 MR. FLY: We'll take a first shot at it. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: We'll take a first shot at it. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's probably better than 22 my first shot.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 161 1 MS. HOOTMAN: No offense. 2 MR. EISNER: So we don't want to go into 3 wh ether we want to add -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: But as distinct and as 5 di screte as possible. I mean, something like -- I'll 6 ju st give you an example. 7 MR. FLY: I mean, EFRI (ph)? Is that 8 ob vious to you? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that one is more 10 ob vious than others. Condenser fan motor options. 11 Wh at is that, really? You know, that could have, a 12 lo t of things could have, fan motor options on the 13 co ndenser side. That one would need to be more 14 ex plicit or higher static indoor blowers, oversized 15 mo tors. I mean, what if something is shipped with 16 it 's supposed to be -- the base model is supposed to 17 be shipped with a 10 but, instead, it is shipped with 18 11 ? Does that really qualify as a high static indoor 19 bl owers, oversized motor category or are we really 20 ta lking about the cases where it needs to be like 15 21 or 20 or 30 or whatever? Do you see what I am saying? 22 I mean, that is where we will need to be able to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 162 1 de finitively draw the line as to what is in and what 2 is out somehow just so, if nothing else, everyone is 3 do ing somewhat of the same thing. 4 MR. EISNER: Do I understand we don't want 5 to get in to whether we should add something like 6 bl enders? If you have blenders now, you will work on 7 th at during the next two weeks? 8 MR. BARHYDT: If they want to supplement the 9 li st. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. We know that there's 11 tu ff that we didn't catch. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else anybody 13 wa nts to talk about about this list? 14 All right. It's a quarter after 11:00. We 15 st arted at 8:00. Would people prefer to take an early 16 lu nch or break around 12:00 or 12:30? 17 MS. HOOTMAN: What is the next subject? 18 MR. BARHYDT: We need to do this for other 19 pr oducts as well. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, we all know that 21 we didn't do water source. 22 MR. EISNER: Water source. We haven't done

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 163 1 th at yet. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we have agreed that the 3 ba sic model definition could stay for water heaters 4 an d boilers and that I don't know if there is anything 5 we need to discuss with CRE other than initially, it 6 wa s keep the basic model definition if there is 7 an ything else. I don't know what we are coming back 8 to . 9 MR. AMRANE: As mentioned by Ron before, 10 th ere might be a list of options like this that would 11 ha ve to be added to the definition of basic model as 12 we ll. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, some of them are 14 ex plicitly addressed by product classes now. So you 15 ha ve got to be careful there. You know, the one he -- 16 op ened versus closed, I mean, that is explicitly 17 ad dressed. To the extent somebody is adding an 18 ac cessory in the field, you know, that is an issue we 19 ar e aware of and we know we have to deal with. To the 20 ex tent somebody is shipping an open case with doors as 21 an accessory from the point of manufacture, that is 22 al so an issue that we know we have to deal with, but

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 164 1 to say that it should be excluded, I don't know 2 be cause we have explicitly addressed that issue 3 th rough the product class structure NRX. 4 MR. AMRANE: That might go to -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And that's okay. 6 Yo u guys are welcome to talk. 7 MR. AMRANE: Right. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: But, you know, we are in 9 th is situation for a lot of these because we haven't 10 ad dressed them through our typical regulatory 11 st ructure. And our commitment is to do so over time. 12 MR. SACHS: In terms of your logistics 13 qu estion, sending people off to lunch before 11:45 is 14 li kely to have shorter lines and less -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes. Let's go down. 16 And other reasons. 17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. We did 18 ta lk about yesterday -- and it seemed like it wasn't 19 me ant to be -- basic model definition for the furnace. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes. We should deal 21 wi th that. So, I mean, I think we come back and 22 sq uare away what I have coined our next steps are with

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 165 1 ba sic model. If we need to revisit any of the AEDM 2 co nsensus stuff in light of our discussions today with 3 th e count we were going for because we would like to 4 ge t AEDMs as squared away as possible so it can -- 5 AS RAC is meeting in June. So it can go to ASRAC to 6 mo ve that process forward. So as much of that as we 7 ca n get comfortable squaring away? So maybe that is 8 wh at, we try to just tie up some loose ends this 9 af ternoon if that is okay. 10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to break now, then? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's be back at about 13 20 after 12:00. 14 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed 15 from 11:19 a.m. until 12:26 p.m.) 16 MR. EISNER: About time we got started. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So there was a request that 18 we at least entertain some discussion around basic 19 mo del concepts and commercial refrigeration. So I say 20 we do that first. So we dealt with this. DOE, you 21 gu ys were all going to go out, think about it, come 22 ba ck in a couple of weeks. And you guys just all

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 166 1 di scussed it. 2 I'm going to turn it over to Ron because you 3 ar e the one who reports it. I don't know exactly what 4 yo u want to talk about, but -- 5 MR. SHEBIK: Let's take a couple of 6 qu estions. I don't know. Charlie, do you or Mary or, 7 Je ff, do you have any questions on anything? 8 MR. HON: Basically, I looked at what they 9 pr esented yesterday as a basic model and no problem 10 fo r us. 11 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. I agree. As far as 12 de finition the way it is laid out as far as the three 13 ti ers, I am fine with that. The question I have is -- 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Three tiers usually not. 15 MR. SHEBIK: I call them tiers. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Tiers. 17 MR. SHEBIK: The setup is small group18 ce rtified basic model, and certified individual model, 19 th ree different levels you have? And you could 20 ce rtify? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, because those are the 22 th ree options of what's around today. So we would

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 167 1 ju st be going to -- well, you could still do the basic 2 mo del going into individual modeling. So for this 3 on e, right, the difference here would be the 4 di fference between I think basic model group or DOE's 5 ba sic model. They have to have the same certified 6 ef ficiency; right? 7 I mean, to the extent -- this is what we 8 se e. We see basic model groups, as you guys currently, 9 I think, understand or as we understand what you guys 10 cu rrently implement as being kind of part of AEDM. So 11 yo u can come up with the ratings. You can group out 12 or however you want to do that, but once you get to a 13 ce rtification for the purpose of certification, you 14 wi ll then group individual models or certify 15 in dividual models however you may choose as long as 16 th ey have common efficiencies, less capacity features. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So that is two levels, 18 no t three. 19 MR. HON: I'm assuming that we are just 20 li sting the single model worst case scenario. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, yes, absolutely. You 22 do n't have to list the individual models, but you

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 168 1 co uld. 2 MR. SHEBIK: And we try this. That would be 3 an example of a certified basic model. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be individual 5 mo del, yes. 6 MR. SHEBIK: Right. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Basic model could be five 8 in dividual models. 9 MR. SHEBIK: Oh, no. I am saying you would 10 li st it, list one case as being the worst, your 11 hi ghest. But you may have other, like the same case 12 mo del with different efficiencies that are higher 13 ef ficiency, but they would still be grouped under that 14 on e -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you don't want to claim 16 th em, you don't want to make claims of the more 17 ef ficient representations, either in your literature 18 or for ENERGY STAR, for anything else. 19 Yes? 20 MR. HON: Go ahead. 21 MR. STEPHENS: Go ahead. 22 MR. HON: You just mentioned something. I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 169 1 th ink that may span a lot of differences. The numbers 2 th at we print on DOE's efficiency base in our 3 li terature, are they related? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think so. 5 MR. HON: That's all I want to know. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: ENERGY STAR, any public 7 di sclosures. 8 MR. HON: Okay because there are all kinds 9 of issues right now between Natural Resources Canada 10 an d ENERGY STAR publications being different. There 11 ar e lots of problems there. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: They should all be the same. 13 MR. HON: I know. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have no doubt. 15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. By 16 de finition of the way ENERGY STAR is wanting us to do 17 it , they can't be the same. They want specific test 18 re ports and taking the average of a test report. And 19 it gets -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are not for water 21 he aters because I wrote that part of the -- 22 MR. STEPHENS: For commercial water heaters?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 170 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I did. We can talk. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Because I am -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you are looking at the 4 pe rson who actually wrote that language. 5 MR. STEPHENS: Because I am going to turn 6 ar ound and look at somebody else in the room because I 7 am taking my guidance from them. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We should talk. I don't 9 kn ow exactly what, but in terms of how a unit is 10 te sted, how the rating is derived, how the standpoint 11 pr ocedures work, they are identical to DOE's. And the 12 re ason for that is so that you can use the same 13 te sting, you don't have to do testing twice. The 14 ra ting comes out with the same number. 15 Now, in terms of verification, it is a 16 di fferent issue. But in terms of your initial product 17 li sting, it should be exactly the same for the 18 re gulatory products. And we're getting there for all 19 of them except for we are not there for CRE yet. 20 It 's open now. 21 But yes. So we can talk in terms of if you 22 th ink there is a misunderstanding because I did write

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171 1 th at part for the residential and commercial. 2 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. I will call them and I 3 wi ll talk to them if I go there next week. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, Frank, I will see 5 an email from you next week. 6 MR. HON: The problem is with EPA, not 7 be tween you and I. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am guessing, though, that 9 yo u will go to EPA and it will somehow come back. 10 So we can do this dual front here. 11 MR. EISNER: But it is your understanding 12 th at EPA is requiring you to list a higher number, 13 hi gher efficiency than you would list for DOE and then 14 yo u don't want to? 15 MR. STEPHENS: I don't know if it's -- 16 MR. EISNER: You don't know if it's true? 17 Th at's what you're -- 18 MR. STEPHENS: -- higher or lower. I know 19 it is different. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It should not be different. 21 Li ke I said, you know, for covered products where DOE 22 re gulations are in place, which are all the commercial

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 172 1 wa ter heaters you are talking about, it has to be 2 id entical. So they don't do the single unit, no 3 to lerance recovery, but it's the two or more, yes, 4 th ey are about to use the third party route or the 5 ma nufacturer-witness testing route, which DOE does not 6 re quire, but that, in and of itself, can be used for 7 DO E certification purposes. So that is the data you 8 wo uld use unless you just wanted to do more testing 9 fo r ratings purposes. So if there is a 10 mi sunderstanding there, let me know. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Thank you. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Back to CRE. 13 MR. BAUMAN: Can I go through a scenario 14 ju st where somebody might use an AEDM or not use an 15 AE DM for particular models? If you talk about one 16 pr oduct category, self-contained, meaning a type of 17 re frigerator, can have one section, two sections, 18 th ree sections, they would be in the same basic model 19 gr oup, not the same certified basic model, obviously, 20 bu t they would be in the same basic model group? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is up to you; right? I 22 me an, once you have -- I will use validate. Once you

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 173 1 ha ve validated your AEDM by getting the minimum number 2 of tests in each class, you are going to actually be 3 ab le to apply it -- 4 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- however you may want. 6 No w, that being said, if we pick a unit and it is 7 ou tside of tolerance, it didn't -- 8 MR. BAUMAN: Then you are all -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: But once you have done that 10 re quirement, you have maintained the data, you have 11 th at -- you know, it is up to you how you apply your 12 si ngle AEDM, your multiple AEDM, so all the other 13 pr oducts that you have. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the whole premise 16 be hind it. 17 MR. BAUMAN: All right. Yes, because I was 18 ju st trying to say your -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean -- 20 MR. BAUMAN: -- platform really becomes what 21 th e groups have already broken down here basically, 22 se lf-contained mode?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 174 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. However you want to do 2 it , yes. 3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Thank you. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 5 MR. HON: One clarity. After the 6 di scussions this morning, there is a different thought 7 pa ttern in the large-scale air conditioner systems. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 9 MR. HON: But you are effectively saying 10 wo rst-case scenario? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: For you guys, correct. That 12 is the way we are setting this up, yes. If you group 13 mo dels, you know, your rating needs to be the worst14 ca se scenario unless it's explicitly not in the CRE 15 te st procedure. 16 MR. BAUMAN: Once you get to the certified 17 ba sic model? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 19 MR. BAUMAN: Right. 20 MR. SHEBIK: You can't have, then, two 21 co mpanies. One company does a grouping, you know, 22 us ing the worst-case criteria. They have 500 models.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 175 1 An d the other one does every single model because they 2 wa nt to claim the efficiency for every single model 3 th ey produce. They have got 500,000 levels. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is okay. That is why 5 we need to do this. 6 MR. SHEBIK: So DOE isn't going to initially 7 ha ve two companies, especially if they make the same 8 ki nd of case, same kind of product, but they're going 9 to have two different energy ratings and a message 10 th at goes out to the customer in the field that is 11 go ing to be misconstrued because the customer feels it 12 is n't going to -- company A and company B have the 13 ex act same case, you know, essentially. Yet, you are 14 go ing to have one that is ten kilowatt hours and one 15 th at is seven kilowatt hours because of lighting 16 ch anges. That is not your concern at all; right? So 17 ho w -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you want to 19 co nservatively rate, you always can under our regs. I 20 me an, some people are going to opt to conservatively 21 ra te for a number of different reasons; right, whether 22 th ey don't want to claim, you know, discrete ratings

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 176 1 fo r high- efficiency options. I am assuming that if a 2 cu stomer wants -- you know, if there is enough demand 3 in the marketplace for a certain technology or 4 di fferentiation of that technology, you guys are going 5 to do it. If you start doing it in your marketing 6 ma terial through AHRI, or anywhere else for that 7 ma tter, you have to do it through here. 8 MR. EISNER: Presumably the company is going 9 to save money by grouping models and be able to sell 10 th eir product for lot more money. I mean, doesn't it 11 wo rk both ways? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It goes both ways, right, 13 be cause if we test a single model in that grouping 14 th at you have come up with in the basic model and we 15 fi nd an invalid rating or a failure, it affects all 16 th e rest of them. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Everything is going to be 18 gr ouped under that amount, right. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, we assume that 20 yo u guys are in the best position to weight these 21 ri sks and know your products the best and know your 22 AE DMs. I don't think we can dictate. So I think,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 177 1 fr om our perspective, giving you as much flexibility 2 as possible is what we are trying to do. 3 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. I understand. 4 MR. HON: We are going to be rating units by 5 ou r own standards because we look at them and say, 6 "O kay. This I'm going to apply an AEDM to because 7 it 's a low-volume, low-exposure." I have a high8 vo lume, send thousands and thousands of that 9 pa rticular unit. I still am not going to leave that 10 fo r ultimate exposure. I am going to list that as a 11 si ngle unit tested to avoid any risk factors. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You mean your -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: Single unit or single model? 14 MR. HON: Single model in itself. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Yes, yes. 16 MR. HON: And, as such, my point is the 17 nu mbers -- ENERGY STAR is involved in Air Canada. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 19 MR. HON: California. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. It goes on and on. 21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So now go back to the 22 tw o companies, the two companies in the example I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 178 1 ha ve. Okay. They send you guys a certification. Here 2 ar e our certified numbers. It is our energy 3 co nsumption for our basic model company versus 4 ce rtified individual model company. What is 5 di stributing commerce? Because now when you market 6 th ese cases to your customer, "Okay. We gave you" -- 7 I won't say, "We." I will say the customer. The 8 co mpany gave you guys, the company gave you guys 9 nu mbers for certification. But they are going to call 10 th e customer, "Here is what our case really does." I 11 me an, it may run ten kilowatt hours, but that is what 12 th e fluorescent lighting and the -- 13 MS. BARHYDT: No. You can't the Department 14 on e number and tell consumers another number. You get 15 on e number. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Take your option. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So how do you control 18 th at? How would DOE control that? How are you going 19 to know what the company -- 20 MR. RIVEST: You tell us. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I mean, we go on 22 we bsites. We look and see what people are advertising.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 179 1 So metimes competitors send us quote sheets that they 2 go t from competitors they have quoted ratings on it. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sometimes consumers come in. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And ask about it. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not uncommon. 6 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we get information 7 fr om a variety of sources. 8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I am just making sure 9 th ere is some structural balance in that. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 11 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 12 MR. EISNER: Charlie? 13 MR. HON: On one comment that you just made, 14 I want to clarify. Enter into commerce. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 16 MR. HON: We ship a lot of product for 17 ex port. It is not designed to deal with any testing we 18 ha ve today. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Slap that label on it. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 21 MR. SHEBIK: Not for sale or for use in the 22 U. S.?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 180 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not for sale or for use, for 2 ex port only, whatever it is. 3 MR. HON: Okay. That's fine. Okay. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Make sure that label is on 5 th ere. Yes. 6 MR. HON: Okay. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Very clear. There are 8 sp ecific words enclosed in the CFR. And they seem 9 re ally strange, but I was told that is what they have 10 to be by my legal counsel. 11 MR. HON: Yes. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I tried to change the -- 13 MR. HON: That is why I directed the 14 qu estion to legal counsel, so I could verify that, 15 be ing an attorney, she would be forced to give me a 16 le gal definition. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. It is like 18 di screte wording. 19 MR. HON: Okay. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I had another question in 21 di stributing commerce. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is like one of the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 181 1 th ings we are kind of on the list to -- 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- deal with in terms of 4 es pecially like one-offs but -- 5 MS. BARHYDT: So what does distribution in 6 co mmerce mean? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 8 MS. BARHYDT: But I think the real issue for 9 yo u guys is, when do I have to certify? And for other 10 pr oducts, it is before distribution in commerce. With 11 th e one-offs, depending on how we end up figuring out 12 wh at actually has to be certified, when to certify is 13 op en to negotiation. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. And, I mean, I am 15 ma king another generalization. In development, we are 16 st ill developing stuff. We are shipping it from our 17 pl ant to La Crosse, Wisconsin to be tested or 18 wh erever. I mean, it may have a model number, but it 19 is still in development. That is not considered in 20 co mmerce; right? It is going across state lines, I 21 gu ess. And I think of transport across state lines. 22 MS. BARHYDT: In our CCE rule, the March 7,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 182 1 20 11 rule, in that rule, we talk about distribution in 2 co mmerce and we talk about products that are still 3 un der development, products being imported for 4 re search and development, that sort of thing, that 5 th at is not a production unit being distributed in 6 co mmerce. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Yes. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Take a look at that language 9 be fore we get there. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: The 2007 one? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Two thousand eleven. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two thousand eleven. 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: The basic model one. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: That I know. Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So take a look at that, 18 th ough, in case there are more clarifications or 19 qu estions you may have with respect to that. And then 20 ob viously we know we need to get to the build-to-order 21 cu stom design, at what point do I certify, what does 22 th at actually mean. That is on the table here still.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 183 1 MR. EISNER: Do you have more? 2 MR. SHEBIK: My next question was custom 3 or der, but you guys said you are going to be looking 4 at that. It is going to be -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: One of these days, yes. 6 MR. SHEBIK: Just because you may only build 7 on e and never look at it again. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 9 MR. SHEBIK: So I guess the last question, I 10 do n't know if I read this thing. I heard you telling 11 th e HVAC people. You mentioned if there is a model 12 th at is not covered, that you have to petition a 13 wa iver? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not if it's not covered. We 15 de termine coverage by the definitions, not 16 ap plicability of a test procedure or a standard. 17 MR. SHEBIK: Well, using CRE as an example, 18 if there is no equipment classification for that 19 mo del, will we be called -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hold on one second. So it 21 ve ry well could be a covered product if it falls 22 wi thin a given equipment class and it has standards,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 184 1 bu t if the test procedure can't account for it, then 2 yo u need a test procedure waiver. If it meets the 3 de finition, it is covered, but if it doesn't have an 4 ap plicable equipment class, then it is covered but not 5 su bject to testing and standard regulations at this 6 ti me. It could be subject to them in the future, but 7 it is not at this time. 8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So coverage for us is 10 de pendent upon the regulatory and statutory 11 de finitions themselves. And just because something is 12 co vered doesn't mean it is subject to testing or 13 st andards. Obviously if it does not meet the 14 de finition, it is not covered and not subject to 15 an ything. 16 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But just because you can't 18 te st it or you don't believe the test procedure 19 ac curately reflects the measures of consumption does 20 no t mean you are exempt from the standard. 21 MR. HON: Example of that probably would be 22 li ke our ice. Again, they are designed to be

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 185 1 op erating in the below 20-degree range. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 3 MR. HON: It is not a refrigerator. It 4 ca nnot be dropped down to zero degrees Fahrenheit to 5 te st, and it doesn't meet the standards. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You need a waiver. 7 MR. HON: So I need a waiver for ice? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or flour, flour for this or 9 wi ne. Yes. 10 MR. HON: Yes. 11 MR. SHEBIK: For example, I was thinking of 12 on e refrigerator -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: My favorite topic. 14 MR. SHEBIK: Is Charlie here? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, Charlie is not here. 16 MR. SHEBIK: He actually used that language 17 th at you said, if it's not covered at this time. So, 18 ag ain, it's something that is current -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not subject -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: Not subject to standards. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not subject to standards at 22 th is time.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 186 1 MR. SHEBIK: There is no testing performance 2 re quirement? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 4 MR. SHEBIK: So, really, at that point, 5 th ere is really nothing we can do with that type of 6 pr oduct. We can't test it and give you SA numbers 7 be cause there are really no numbers you've -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't need to. 9 MS. BARHYDT: You don't need to. 10 MR. SHEBIK: Right. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can go forth with your 12 bu siness without us. 13 MR. STANONIK: You can test it any way you 14 wa nt and claim any -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can petition us to do a 16 ru le for it if you really want to. 17 MR. STANONIK: You have nothing to work on. 18 I am just going to go with that. 19 MALE SPEAKER: Frank, there is a better way 20 to put that. 21 MR. STANONIK: Yes. I like that. 22 MALE SPEAKER: There is a test standard for

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 187 1 th e California -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We will have a 3 re gulatory one. That's fine. 4 MR. SHEBIK: I am not talking about them. I 5 kn ow they have got their own thing out there. 6 MR. HON: Just don't have all your products 7 fa lling in that category. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Don't call them all 9 in one place because something tells me we may not 10 ag ree with that. 11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. This 12 is right up our alley. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 14 MR. STEPHENS: Jeff had mentioned, I think, 15 at our last meeting and I think every manufacturer has 16 lo oked at combining different products together to 17 me et a different need a different way. How do we 18 pr oceed with that kind of option? Because there's 19 mo re than one test method that it fits. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is like becoming my new 21 ba sic model issue. Combination of plans. So I'm 22 go ing to say it depends. I don't have a straight off

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 188 1 an swer for you in terms of across-the-board 2 ap plicability. We had discussions around something 3 th at is a battery charger, a microwave, and a fridge 4 al l in one. 5 We have had discussions of something that is 6 an air conditioner and a water heater in one. We have 7 ha d discussions of boilers and water heaters. So 8 th ere's not a whole -- the way our regs are set up is 9 by discrete covered products. 10 So if something is functioning as a water 11 he ater and a heating appliance, it could be subject to 12 th e heating appliance standards and the water heater 13 st andards, could be. I am not saying definitively it 14 is because there were certain circumstances where we 15 ha ve given test procedure waivers as well as for those 16 ty pes of appliances. And a lot of them will need a 17 te st procedure waiver to deal with. 18 But the first step would be to approach the 19 De partment with the specifics of the situation because 20 we are going to have to -- just, unfortunately, with 21 al l of the variations that I have seen in the past 22 li ke two months since the Department has been

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 189 1 cl arifying its position that because you can't be 2 te sted doesn't mean you are not covered, you know, 3 me ans that we are going to have to work toward it with 4 yo u. And there is this world of combination 5 ap pliances and what do we do with them more broadly 6 th at we have been discussing internally. 7 You guys could just make simpler things 8 he re. It would go easier for us. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Do you want to try to go into 10 th e outside area in that way? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can explain. I think I 12 kn ow where you are going here, but you can explain. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. So I asked Ashley 14 a question about a product that I am confused whether 15 it is covered or not. And that is condensing units by 16 th emselves. We make a commercial condensed unit that 17 we never portray ratings. It is never matched with an 18 ai r handler. So there is no way to have a match 19 ra ting with an air-moving device, but it gets matched 20 in the field with my competitors' products and 21 ex isting products and things like that. 22 The only AHRI test standard that covers it

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 190 1 is AHRI 365, which is a condensed unit-only 2 pe rformance, 95 degrees, outdoors in the 45-degree 3 se ction. And I will kind of know where you portrayed 4 in a -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I don't have a 6 de finitive -- we have been talking about this since 7 yo ur email. I don't have a definitive answer for you. 8 Ho w do you distinguish? Is it a completely different 9 de sign? I mean, I am trying to learn more. Is it a 10 co mpletely different design from a condenser unit you 11 wo uld pair as a split system? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: In this case, it is, at least 13 my self. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, is that true across 15 th e board? I mean, is there a clear way to 16 di stinguish between a condensing unit just sold as a 17 co ndensing unit versus the one that may be sold as a 18 sp lit system? 19 MR. FLY: It is always going in some kind of 20 sp lit system. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was not a part of that. 22 At the point of manufacture, you know, a unit that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 191 1 so ld just as a condenser unit versus a unit that sold 2 po tentially as a split system from the point of 3 ma nufacture. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: It never showed as match 5 ra tings. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that same condensing 7 un it you don't ever sell as a matched rating as an 8 op tion? 9 MS. HOOTMAN: No. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No one else does? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just talking about the one 12 I have. That's all I have. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. You do? 14 MR. JOHNSON: Some of our condensing units 15 we match up with and use in our package documents. We 16 sp lit those out in some of the condensing units. 17 Ot hers are stand-alone. We don't match them with 18 an ything. So it's a mixed bag. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: How do you distinguish? 20 MS. HOOTMAN: This is our 2420 here. 21 MR. JOHNSON: Right, right. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: It happens to be a derivative

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 192 1 of the package design where we take off this here. It 2 do es have some other controls to it. So you can't 3 ju st 4

-- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: How would you tell? 6 MR. JOHNSON: Multiple programs. That 7 ha ppens, too. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I literally don't know 9 wh ere it is going out the door. I don't know what -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, for example, you are 11 sa ying some of them are different and some of them you 12 se ll with your packets here? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 14 MR. JOHNSON: Why -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: We don't match them with 16 an ything. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why are they different? Why 18 ar e they the same? How would you tell one that's -- 19 so if I walked into your facility and I'm like -- how 20 wo uld I know that one is for condensing unit-only 21 sa les versus that one is for split systems. 22 MR. JOHNSON: Model number.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 193 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Split system model number. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, right. I get that, 3 bu t you have made the distinction. But is there any 4 ph ysical distinction? Is there any specific thing 5 th at needs to be in the unit? 6 MR. JOHNSON: There's no air handler 7 at tached to it. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I got that part. 9 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. 10 MR. FLY: I mean, I think what you are 11 ge tting at is in our case, whether I sell it as a 12 ma tched set or sell it matched with a Trane unit, it's 13 th e same unit. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. That is what I'm 15 ge tting at. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: But nowhere do we portray a 17 ra ting for that. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. So I get 19 th e part where nowhere do you now portray a rating. 20 Th e question about whether you should or whether we 21 ne ed to -- obviously we need to deal with the issue, 22 bu t how we deal with the issue, I mean, right now I

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 194 1 se e this as like an ICM issue for residential; right, 2 ob viously on a different scale -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Completely CADI (ph). 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you see how we treat 5 th ose. They are not covered. They have to be rated. 6 Th ey have to be certified. It is a matter of maybe 7 th at model doesn't fit the commercial world, but I am 8 tr ying to say that is what we know. So our 9 re gulations are built around the system. And I don't 10 th ink just because you are making a condensing unit -- 11 th is is not a definitive statement for the position of 12 th e Department, but my initial reading, you are not 13 ex cluded from that definition. The definition of 14 co mmercial air conditioner is very broad. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 16 MR. AMRANE: I don't agree with that because 17 if Congress wanted to include this product in 19.92, 18 th ey would have included this product in the list. 19 An d this product was in 19.1 forever. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 21 MR. AMRANE: And they were not included 22 sp ecifically because --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 195 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Whether or not they have to 2 be tested and whether or not there are standards are 3 di fferent. The definition is very broad. It is 4 en compassing of it. Now, whether or not and how we 5 de al with them is a different issue. So I think it's 6 - - you know, that is what I am just trying to 7 un derstand. I mean, I don't know what you guys do 8 to day. You don't list them at all; right? You don't; 9 ri ght? 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. There's no -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: To us, it's like how do you 12 di stinguish something that is just sold as that versus 13 so mething that is sold as a split or a package system 14 an d doesn't need to be rated? Could somebody just 15 sa y, "I am doing all of these"? 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe a little history of 17 wh ere they came from. You know, way before packaging 18 wa s even considered, everyone built up their own 19 sy stems. And this is where they kind of come from. 20 Th ey come from a buildup system, an engineer who wants 21 to design it any which way he wants to and he picks 22 th is and this and this and this. And the packaging

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196 1 re ally evolved from "Oh, since you're going to make 2 th is, you know, every single time kind of this way, 3 wh y can't you package that all for me and send it down 4 th e line and give it to us already off the package?" 5 We ll, those never cover all the applications, just 6 li ke we -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Of course not. 8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- have talked about, even in 9 al l of those combinations. So, you know, they get 10 ma tched with, you know, rooftop air handlers, custom 11 ai r handlers, all different kinds of things. Even, 12 li ke I said, my competitors were even just air 13 ha ndling-only manufacturers, kind of like an ICM, kind 14 of like that, where they are air handler, custom air 15 ha ndler/owner manufacturers. And they are meant for 16 pe rformances that, you know, when we are talking about 17 se nsible heat ratio and things like that and the 18 pa ckage units, it is still defined by that casing and 19 ho w far we can go in that casing. And sometimes these 20 ar e getting, you know, huge demagnifications or 21 so mething like that, you know, picked for those kinds 22 of things. And that's kind of the old way of doing

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 197 1 th ings, in a way. There are still pockets of the 2 co untry that kind of prefer those for their 3 ap plications. So that is why they are still around. 4 Th ey are not compared to the other. I mean, it is an 5 80 /20 kind of rule. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Eighty percent are package 8 un its, and the 80 percent are the standards. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- I recognize an issue 10 be cause I am just not sure exactly how it fits in our 11 re gs at this point and exactly what we do to -- 12 MS. HOOTMAN: So is that a waiver from it 13 be cause there is not a test standard to even say it is 14 a waiver, though? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the first thing would be 16 if we decide a) it's covered, it definitively means 17 th e definition would be is it subject to the existing 18 st andards? And it could be that we say no, in which 19 ca se there is no testing or standard required at this 20 po int in time. But that means if you do have coverage 21 ov er it, we could do something in the future on it if 22 we found the need to or desire to or it may just be we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 198 1 le ave it alone. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 3 MR. AMRANE: There is an efficiency in the 4 na tional components. It has been there forever. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You're right. It has. 6 MR. AMRANE: And this is to -- 7 MS. HOOTMAN: And it's at the AHRI 365 that 8 we 9

-- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, I mean, I don't 11 kn ow. Like I said, I don't know how we reconcile 12 th at, we realize. If you have any ideas, you see our 13 mo del that we have set up for residential. And while 14 yo u may argue that one is not the best model either, I 15 me an, it is not applicable at all to commercial, but 16 we definitely told them they are on the hook. 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you know, keep that in 19 mi nd. If you have any ideas, you know, we are open 20 he re. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, there is a 22 gr oup. In residential, there are a lot more programs

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 199 1 th at show how to cross-plot that -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: There is engineering going. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: It cross-plots. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. 7 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. 8 Ge nerally, doesn't the sales rep -- you tell them what 9 yo ur load is and they match up the coil with you? You 10 te ll them what you need for evaporator capacity and 11 th ey size up based on what will get you the design 12 re quirements you need. And so usually the equipment 13 ma nufacturer that you are selecting gives you the 14 se lection and you throw it down in their schedule? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: No. We don't give them 16 an ything. All we give them is "Here is the condensing 17 cu rve of this unit, Mr. Engineer. Mr. Engineer, you 18 si t and cross-plot that to whatever you want to. And 19 it can be a lot of different things. You cross-plot 20 th is refrigeration curve with that refrigeration 21 cu rve. And you figure out where your unique level 22 wa s."

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 200 1 MR. STARR: It sounds like a test procedure. 2 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the old way we were all 3 ta ught where we want to go and how to design these 4 th ings. Some of us used slide rules in college. 5 MR. STARR: What? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 7 MR. STARR: I've heard of those. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Any more questions? 9 MR. EISNER: We do have a question from 10 Ma ssoud Neshan. Massoud, are you on the phone line? 11 MR. NESHAN: Can you hear me? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can. 13 MR. NESHAN: Can you hear me? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can. Go ahead. 15 MR. NESHAN: Okay. I have a question. 16 Ea rlier in an answer to a question, someone from DOE 17 sa id that the numbers that are in our catalog match 18 wh at is given to DOE. Is that correct? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. That's correct. 20 MR. NESHAN: Yes. It was just a question. 21 We manufacture commercial equipment. When we test it 22 wi th DOE's manual, it is a specific degree product.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 201 1 Wh en we test it to NSF, it is less than a 41-degree 2 pr oduct temperature. However, customers have specific 3 re quirements, for example, for a case with a 4 te mperature not 34 degrees. So the number I give the 5 cu stomer would be different than I would have to give 6 to DOE. I mean, how do we reconcile this? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We have had this 8 qu estion before. I don't know that we have actually 9 fu lly addressed the issue. 10 MR. SHEBIK: It is going to come up with one 11 of our very large customers. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I realize it. 13 MR. SHEBIK: They require a certain holding 14 te mperature. I don't know what the energy level is, 15 bu t the holding temperature, it's going to be 16 di fferent than 38. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I will say definitively 18 at the DOE test procedure conditions, the 19 re presentation should be identical. Now, the question 20 be comes -- 21 MR. NESHAN: No doubt about that. No doubt 22 ab out that.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 202 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So the question 2 be comes, can you make alternative representations at 3 ot her conditions outside of the realm of DOE? 4 Can we get back to you on that one? 5 MR. AMRANE: That is being done all the 6 ti me. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand. 8 MR. AMRANE: HVAC, everywhere. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Easy. 10 I got it. 11 MR. FLY: You've got a big problem if you 12 te ll us we can't. 13 MR. THARP: I had one thing I would like to 14 ad d to the basic model discussion that is I think 15 ap plicable for all products. And that's when we say 16 el ectrical as the power source, I just want to make 17 su re we're all in tune if that includes 230-volt 3- 18 ph ase; 460-volt, 3-phase; I-75, that that is one basic 19 mo del, regardless of the voltage because the energy 20 co nsumption is the same. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I am going to tell you 22 th at I am not going to give you an across-the-board

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 203 1 an swer because the reason for that is because in 2 ce rtain test procedures -- and I just don't remember 3 of f the top of my head -- certain test procedures, we 4 sa id, "Test at this voltage." But, generally 5 sp eaking, that is the goal. There would not be two 6 te sts every single decade that you offer for the same 7 ro ds. So, whether we have done it through test 8 pr ocedures, whether we have done it through basic 9 mo dels, you know, the goal would be to get there. So 10 we will try to reconcile that as we go through. 11 MR. FLY: As long as we list it 12 co nservatively? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. You need to -- 14 MR. FLY: If there was any difference, if I 15 li st it as one basic model for all voltages and it met 16 al l the voltage, you wouldn't have a problem with it? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's correct. In certain 18 ca ses -- and I don't remember if this is the case for 19 an y of these products we're talking about today. I 20 kn ow there is one for residential where we said, "Test 21 at this specific voltage." And that actually may be 22 no t the most conservative rating in certain cases.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 204 1 Bu t if we said, "Test at this voltage; and you don't 2 ne ed to test at this one," then obviously test 3 pr ocedure has taken care of that. 4 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Comments? 5 Do ne with this issue? 6 Okay. 7 FEMALE SPEAKER: Do we need to talk about 8 fu rnaces or something? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes. 10 MR. EISNER: We've also got one -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Furnaces, basic model. 12 MR. EISNER: We've got one more. Wait. 13 We 've got one more question. 14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. In keeping 15 wi th the discussion we had yesterday morning, are we 16 do ne with this issue? We need to be careful. We all 17 ne ed to make sure we understand what you mean when you 18 sa y, "We are done with this issue" because clearly we 19 ha d a number of items we are going to come back to. 20 MR. EISNER: Every item that we have been 21 ta lking about today will come back, yes. We're going 22 to take a vote. We just want to know if anybody has

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 205 1 an y more questions. Okay. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we need to amend the 3 de finition, the existing basic model definition, for 4 co mmercial furnaces? 5 MR. THARP: At least talk about that. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, there are only two 7 cl asses. It's pretty -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Our discussion 9 ye sterday that we had on the side was that we would 10 ad opt the basic model definition that's in -- we would 11 li ke to have it the same as what is in the AHRI OM for 12 th e commercial furnace. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is? 14 MR. WHITWELL: Hold on. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: One of you had it up. This 16 is going to be one of those ones that, does it get you 17 to a singular reading? 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: Efficiency. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I mean, a single, like 22

--

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 206 1 MR. WHITWELL: Basically what it is -- well, 2 he re. Let me read it. I'm pulling it up. While I'm 3 wa iting for it to open up, so a basic model. It 4 de pends on the input, the fuel, whether it's oil or 5 ga s. Okay. So basic model group is a family of 6 mo dels which have identical ratings for thermal 7 ef ficiency, which is the metric, and the same primary 8 en ergy source, gas or oil, and which do not have any 9 di ffering physical or functional characteristics that 10 af fect energy consumption. So it is the input, the 11 in put BTT. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Same as ours, different 13 wo rds. Okay. 14 Any issues? Any discussion needed? 15 MR. THARP: Yes. We have water source left. 16 An d we haven't put anything together yet. So -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: We didn't get to that. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe I will just come back. 19 MR. STARR: Why don't we table that until 20 ne xt time, if we could. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will say that, you know, 22 ob viously within this realm is PTACs, SPVUs. Yes,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 207 1 th ey are air-cooled products. Most of that list did 2 no t apply. So I don't know if somebody wants to think 3 ab out those, but, you know -- 4 MR. AMRANE: SPVU is some of the things that 5 we have discussed before. HVAC would apply. For 6 PT ACs, probably not, but -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 8 MR. AMRANE: But we will have to come back 9 to you. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Think about those in the 11 gr and scheme of things. In my file that I circulated, 12 it had a thing for applicable products. Take a look 13 an d just make sure the bases are covered before we 14 ac tually get to a vote on this and we don't have any 15 ex tra things we need to reopen later, not to say that 16 we can't. 17 MR. EISNER: Nothing further on this or we 18 do ? Something, Phillip? 19 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip Stephens, HTP. 20 Ju st I can't remember off the top of my head. What 21 ca tegory are we putting commercial heat pump/water 22 he aters in?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 208 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are under commercial 2 wa ter heaters, although right now we have no test 3 me thod for them. So those are one of those hanging4 ou t items. 5 MR. MYERS: Covered, but not currently 6 re gulated? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Covered but not currently 8 su bject to test procedure or standard. And then they 9 wo uldn't have to certify. 10 MR. THARP: You have 13 items. There is an 11 HR I rating procedure that was just released today or 12 ye sterday. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Kind of, yes. There will be 14 an ENERGY STAR draft test procedure released probably 15 in June as well for them. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: And it will probably be 17 di fferent, right? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: "Different" is not the right 19 wo rd. You were involved in the HR process. So we 20 we re there at the table. So you may see some open21 en ded discussion items in the draft as a result of 22 so me testing we did.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 209 1 MS. HOOTMAN: Kids, kids, kids. Can't play 2 to gether well; can you? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We tried. We tried. 4 MR. EISNER: Nothing else on this issue? We 5 st ill have a remaining scope issue. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need to go back. We need 7 to go back to the AEDM document and finalize as many 8 pi eces of this as we can. That is really the 9 ou tstanding issue. Actually, vote upon them, get 10 fi nal numbers. And we can do this section by section 11 be cause some I think are pretty noncontroversial. But 12 at least this would allow some things to move forward 13 th rough the process, if not all. Is that okay? 14 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Neil, do you 16 wa nt to do the voting? 17 MR. EISNER: We want to start with the prior 18 pa ragraphs, where we discuss any of the background. 19 An ybody have any questions on those two paragraphs, 20 ba sic information about what we are doing? 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, obviously, this would be 22 up dated based on the votes.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 210 1 MR. EISNER: No problems on the first two 2 pa ragraphs? 3 Do we want to vote on each one of these 4 pa ragraphs one by one or do we want to just go through 5 th e whole document and vote on it? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we just kind of do them by 7 li ke background and then the next thing is, I mean -- 8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Well, let's talk about 9 th e first two paragraphs in background. Anybody have 10 an ything they want to ask about this, any concerns 11 th ey want to raise? 12 Does anybody want to abstain from voting on 13 th is? 14 Are there any objections to this? 15 All right. So it is fair to say we have 16 un animous consent on this. 17 All right. This is simply going to reflect, 18 th e third paragraph is going to reflect, what happens 19 as a result of this meeting. And we agree to whether 20 we say we have consensus or whether we say we have 21 un animous positions or whatever. If people want to 22 ma ke an abstention and want it recorded in here, we

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 211 1 ca n do that. Tell us when we talk about abstentions. 2 So this one we can't decide on until we go 3 th rough each thing. The next one is preapproval of 4 th e AEDM prior to use. Talk about applicable 5 pr oducts. Do you want to go through the whole thing 6 on AEDM prior to use? Straightforward? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Unanimous? 8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 9 MR. EISNER: No disagreements? No 10 ab stentions? 11 No objections? 12 Okay. "Applicable products. Recommends 13 al lowance of use of AEDMs for the following product 14 ty pes." First bullet. We need some bullets that are 15 on there. Any problems? Let's do the first big 16 bu llet. Commercial air conditioning. Any issues? 17 An y problems? Any questions? 18 Any abstentions? 19 Any objections to the first bullet? 20 Okay. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a question on the 22 li ne.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 212 1 MS. BARHYDT: Line from somebody voting. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Actually 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Peter, can you hear us? 4 MR. MOLVIE: Yes, I can. Can you hear me? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. Go ahead. 6 MR. MOLVIE: All right. Yes. I just wanted 7 to ask a question. I had sent in a comment before all 8 th e meetings started. I don't know whether you 9 di scussed it early yesterday because the audio was 10 ou t, but it was relative to the testing in accordance 11 wi th the DOE test procedures and whether or not the 12 ap proval of this document was unanimous. And I 13 di scussed, I think it was, with Laura about the 14 th ought. She suggested adding words on the second 15 pa ge when we are talking about each selection 16 re presenting a single test in accordance with DOE test 17 pr ocedure, adding the words "or an approved 18 al ternate," I mean, because we are still left hanging 19 ou t here with not being able to comply with the 20 cu rrent test procedures. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So Ashley and I spoke. And we 22 we re going to throw out the document, make sure that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 213 1 it says, "the applicable DOE test procedure," which 2 wo uld encompass both the regulatory test procedures 3 an d any waivers that have been issued by the 4 De partment. So it would be whatever test procedure 5 ap plies to that product so that it's -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That model. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Right, that model. 8 MR. MOLVIE: Thank you. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 10 MR. MOLVIE: I guess those words wouldn't be 11 as clear to me as saying the words "approved 12 al ternate," but -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can make that clear. 14 MR. MOLVIE: Okay. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the intention is there. 16 MR. EISNER: Do we want to type in here what 17 we will put in each of the other categories so there 18 is no question about it? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not there yet, but 20 ye s, I can do that. It is going to be here. 21 MS. BARHYDT: It is going to be done. 22 MR. EISNER: Okay. When we get done today,

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 214 1 we can add it. 2 MR. MOLVIE: Okay. As long as that gets 3 ad dressed in some manner. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am going to have to change 5 it in like a dozen places. 6 MR. EISNER: No. But I am just saying it is 7 go ing to be the same language in those places. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is going to say "or 9 ap proved DOE waiver." 10 MR. EISNER: Thank you. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: So first bullet, no objections, 13 no abstentions. Is that correct? 14 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Second big bullet. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we are okay with 17 ap plicable products; right? 18 MR. EISNER: Commercial water heaters is the 19 se cond big bullet. Commercial package boilers, 20 co mmercial warm air furnaces, commercial refrigeration 21 eq uipment. Any concerns, questions, problems? 22 Any abstentions?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 215 1 Does anybody object to this language? 2 Okay. That brings us down to validation. 3 Le t's look at the introductory paragraphs before we 4 ge t to each of the charts. Any questions? 5 MR. KLEISS: Sorry. Going back to the 6 pr evious section, just the heading of it, it says, 7 "C ommercial Air Conditioning Equipment," the top 8 bu llet. 9 MR. EISNER: We're going back up here. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I knew this one. 11 MR. KLEISS: Okay. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Here you go. 13 MR. KLEISS: Thank you. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I'm sorry, although 15 th ese are all sub-bullets; right. So I'm okay. 16 MR. EISNER: These are single bullets. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're okay. 18 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we're back on the 19 va lidation, first two paragraphs. 20 MR. STANONIK: So this is a note I had from 21 ye sterday to make clear that this is -- so I think 22 ev eryone read this to be on a per-AEDM basis, this is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 216 1 wh at you have to do. So I just made that note here. 2 An d we will make sure that the language is very clear 3 th at it is a per-AEDM basis. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So, similarly, like 5 th at first sentence of the second paragraph, it is 6 ea ch of the AEDMs. Up in the second line there, it 7 sa ys, "For each of the validation classes." So it is 8 fo r each of the AEDMs to be used in the validation 9 cl asses or something like that; right? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Manufacturer -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, we don't need to get 12 th e words right now, but you know what I am getting 13 at ; right? That would be an example where we would -- 14 MR. KLEISS: Or just in the table, you could 15 ju st have two models per AEDM. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Maybe that's -- 17 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay with what 18 As hley has just added? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is what you 20 wa nt. 21 MR. EISNER: "To which the AEDM is going to 22 ap ply."

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 217 1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I guess I am not sure 2 th at that says what you are saying down below or what 3 we talked about yesterday. Yesterday we talked about 4 al lowing multiple AEDMs per validation class; right? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. If you have 6 mu ltiple, you would still have to meet the 7 re quirements for both. 8 MR. WHITWELL: You would. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Both what? 10 MR. WHITWELL: Both what? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's just use an 12 ex ample; right? I mean, I don't know. That is what I 13 he ard yesterday, but I could have misunderstood. 14 Well, let's just talk about 3-phase, less 15 th an 65; right? 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You decide you want two 18 AE DMs. That is four tested models. Right? 19 MR. WHITWELL: Right, yes. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll get that, whatever that 21 la nguage needs to say. 22 MR. AMRANE: It's for AEDM.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 218 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two for each. So this is 2 th e minimum requirements that must be tested per AEDM. 3 MR. DOPPEL: So if we put in a title 4 "C ommercial HVAC Validation Classes Per AEDM." 5 MR. AMRANE: Right. 6 MR. DOPPEL: Does that do it? 7 MR. AMRANE: Right. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I think right there. 10 MR. EISNER: Should we go with it? 11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I think we are clear; 12 ri ght? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we all agree. 14 It 's just a matter of wording at this point for 15 so meone who is not in this room to understand in the 16 CF R. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Yes? 18 MR. THARP: Ashley, my question yesterday on 19 th e "subsequent," the term "subsequent," just make 20 su re that the terminology in the final language 21 in dicates that subsequent is the comparison of the 22 te st data to simulation initially and any further

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 219 1 te sting of models. It is not a running comparisons. 2 It is a initial comparison upon initial approval. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 4 MR. EISNER: You want language added or do 5 yo u want to just ask, make sure that is the 6 un derstanding? 7 MR. THARP: I think the open discussion here 8 is adequate because it will be recorded. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can put it in the 10 pr eamble. 11 MR. DOPPEL: At the bottom of this table, 12 th ere is a note. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. There is a note. It's 14 mu ltiple. 15 MR. EISNER: No problems with the first two 16 pa ragraphs? 17 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think 18 we established yesterday it's also per AEDM per 19 va lidation class. So if you have one AEDM that spans 20 mu ltiple categories, multiple classes, then you would 21 st ill have to provide two tests for each -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Each.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 220 1 MR. STEPHENS: -- of those categories. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 3 MR. EISNER: So do we need a clarification 4 in this caption or are you satisfied with something in 5 th e preamble? 6 MR. STEPHENS: I think it's fine. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's pretty clear. 8 MR. EISNER: Everybody agree it's clear? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: The key here is just 10 ma intain your data and your package so that if Laura 11 de cides she wants to look at it, you have it squared 12 aw ay. 13 MR. EISNER: Let me make sure. We'll enter 14 th e chart now. Any objections on the first two 15 pa ragraphs? 16 No abstentions? 17 Let the record reflect we have got agreement 18 on that. Let's look at the chart now. 19 MR. MYERS: Excuse me. Neil? 20 MR. EISNER: Yes? 21 MR. MYERS: Let me just make sure what 22 ev erybody has just agreed to. They agreed to that in

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 221 1 co ncept along with the notes to have Ashley or someone 2 at DOE write up something that incorporates what we 3 ta lked about, not those specific words. 4 MR. EISNER: This is -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just -- 6 MR. EISNER: This is the report. Ashley has 7 ag reed that she will add language in each place where 8 it is appropriate, one thing about -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: The waiver. 10 MR. EISNER: -- the waiver. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I did do that, in this 12 pa ragraph. So the idea here is you are voting on the 13 la nguage that would go to ASRAC. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Not the regulatory. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not the right text. I mean, 16 gr anted, we are going to keep as much of this language 17 as possible as part of the right text, but yes. This 18 is your recommendation. 19 MR. MYERS: So I haven't actually looked at 20 it in that regard. Hopefully others that are voting 21 on it have. This is -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You will get to make

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 222 1 co mments on the proposed rule regardless. 2 MR. MYERS: Does everyone feel this includes 3 go ing to ASRAC, what we have been saying? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 5 MR. AMRANE: When is the next ASRAC meeting? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think right now it is 7 te ntatively set for the end of June, towards the end 8 of June. 9 MR. AMRANE: Would it be better to review 10 th e final documents before voting on something? I 11 do n't know. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next time you are 13 go ing to get together is going to be within a week of 14 AS RAC. I want to give ASRAC enough time to vote this 15 ou t to DOE. It's just pretty close. 16 MR. DOPPEL: Well, we're June 11 and 12. 17 MR. AMRANE: Right. It's end of June. 18 MR. DOPPEL: Or is it 10-11? 19 MR. STANONIK: Ten and 11. 20 MR. DOPPEL: Ten-11. 21 MR. STANONIK: Is the ASRAC meeting on like 22 th e --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 223 1 MR. EISNER: This is a document that we 2 ta lked about at the first meeting very extensively. 3 Ar e you talking about -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, at some point -- 5 MR. EISNER: -- reviewing this document in 6 ca se you see a minor edit or correction or 7 cl arification or are we talking about renegotiating a 8 lo t of this in these tables? 9 MR. AMRANE: No. I think voting on the far 10 ri ght, which we -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So here is the thing. I 12 gu ess my preference would be -- and I don't know how 13 th is would go -- vote on as much of this as possible 14 ri ght now if you have like clarification, edits, or 15 wh ere they will take things and then over the next 16 we ek or so. And we can compile a final version to 17 ci rculate. And you can vote on sending it to ASRAC or 18 so mething like that. But so we don't start the next 19 me eting renegotiating the same positions, let's go 20 ah ead and vote out on the positions if we can. 21 MR. EISNER: All right. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that fair?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 224 1 MR. AMRANE: Talking about voting 2 MR. MYERS: Sure. This doesn't give the 3 cl arity that we were discussing about you can split 4 an y validation class into two AEDMs or -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not sure you are going 6 to -- I mean, you can get that. You can put that type 7 of level of clarity in this document. Remember, we 8 st ill have to translate it to a proposed rule. I 9 me an, if ASRAC votes positively and then the Secretary 10 vo tes, I mean, the same way, agrees, we still have to 11 tr anslate it to a notice of proposed rulemaking and 12 ri ght text. So at some point, which will be a proposal 13 fo r the moment. 14 MR. EISNER: I'm not clear on what you want 15 to do on this particular document. I sense that some 16 of you are uncomfortable even saying that "This 17 la nguage is okay. I don't object" or whether you want 18 to just look at this document now, make more comments, 19 ha ve Ashley rewrite the document, circulate it for you 20 to read carefully, get editorial comments to her, 21 ot her substantive comments, and then have another 22 vo te, either via email or via the next meeting. So

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 225 1 le t's have a little discussion on that to make sure we 2 ar e clear where we are. Anybody? Comments? Any 3 su ggestions on how to handle this? 4 MR. AMRANE: I think, if possible, it would 5 be better if we vote on the final document. That 6 wo uld be my -- 7 MR. EISNER: Well, there may never be a 8 fi nal document. 9 MR. AMRANE: Well, I mean, she is going to - 10

- 11 MR. EISNER: If each time we have a vote on 12 it , someone says, "I'd like to see the language before 13 we vote," that is a fair request to make. 14 But this document was circulated. It was 15 gi ven to people over the weekend. If you think it 16 st ill doesn't reflect the clarification you asked for 17 ye sterday, then you have a right to say, "I want to 18 se e another draft." But it can go on forever. 19 If somebody says, "I'm not clear. I need to 20 go back and rethink this point before we vote," they 21 ma y not have it done in time to get this through a 22 vo te.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 226 1 So do you want to reserve the right to go 2 th rough this now and get everybody's comments and then 3 ta ke a vote on each paragraph or each section? That's 4 wh y I was suggesting if there is language we want to 5 ad d, we can add it now. We can give Ashley the 6 in structions to add the same language to each chart if 7 th at is necessary. But if you don't feel comfortable 8 an d agree to this document now, then there is no sense 9 in voting on each section. 10 MR. STARR: In the -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And, just to be clear, you 12 ca n edit away at these words. They are still going to 13 be translated to a proposed rule and reg guides -- 14 MR. STARR: Right. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- at the end of the day. 16 Fo r what you are going to have comment on, we have no 17 in tention of change assuming ASRAC and the Secretary 18 ha ve agreed there is no intention of changing the 19 co ncepts agreed to but editorialize, we could do this 20 al l day long. 21 MR. STARR: Right. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the key here is do we all

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 227 1 ag ree on the concepts? And do the words reflect the 2 bi g concept issues? Because we will have a 3 tr anscript, we will have the discussions. And if we 4 ne ed to up preamble examples, we can to go along with 5 th is, but we are really trying to move forward here. 6 MR. STARR: Maybe we can just vote or go 7 th rough this thing and then whatever changes you have, 8 tr ack changes so that we can see them if they have 9 pr oblems with it. That way we can at least do a 10 wo rking document that takes us to the final product 11 so oner, rather than later. And then look at the stuff 12 in track changes that is added after this meeting and 13 th en work on it that way would be my preference, 14 al though I personally have no problems with it. 15 MR. EISNER: Others? Do you want to 16 wi thhold approval on certain sections and approve 17 ot hers so -- 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe. We haven't gotten down 19 to all of them yet. 20 MR. EISNER: I understand that. But do you 21 ha ve objection to anything you have seen so far so 22 th at you want to wait for Ashley to make changes or

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 228 1 ca n you say, "The two introductory paragraphs are 2 fi ne. I don't need to see that," "The first chart is 3 fi ne"? Then Ashley can get it done more quickly and 4 ge t it out to you. 5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Bob Whitwell. So the 6 on ly thing that I would add to this -- and we talked 7 ab out it, there is agreement on it -- just where it 8 sa ys, "per AEDM basis," maybe we just add a phrase 9 "c an be multiple AEDMs per product class" in this. 10 Th en we get the concept down. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Are we done? 12 MR. EISNER: So you want to take out the 13 ma in clear or -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe the wording needs to be 15 ch anged up above to correspond to that concept. I'll 16 le ave that to Ashley. 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. 18 MR. STANONIK: Does anybody in this room not 19 be lieve that we have agreement that the number of 20 AE DMs that a manufacturer can use is up to the 21 ma nufacturer and scope of those AEDMs, whether it 22 co vers one product class or several product classes or

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 229 1 ju st one subgroup within a product class is also up to 2 th e manufacturer's discretion? Does anybody not 3 be lieve we have gotten to that point of agreement? Do 4 yo u trust DOE to provide it? 5 MR. EISNER: Let me ask, does anybody 6 di sagree with going through this document and voting 7 ap proval section by section? So we can go through and 8 vo te section by section. If there is a section that 9 th ere is objection to or request for more clarity, we 10 ca n identify that and ask for a revision. The whole 11 do cument can come around. The focus would be on the 12 on es we said, "Would like to look at it again before 13 we vote on it." What we have gone through today, does 14 an ybody want to go back and reverse their vote and 15 ob ject so that Ashley has to circulate for clearance? 16 Ye s? 17 MR. MYERS: Neil, this is Frank Myers with 18 PV I. I did jot down the two things that we talked 19 ab out that are not directly contained in this that I 20 th ink we have all agreed to. So it's not reopening. 21 Bu t with the addition of these two sentences, I think 22 it would cover all the things that called me the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 230 1 pr evious question back up. 2 MR. EISNER: All right. And these weren't 3 th ings that Ashley said would go in the preamble? 4 Th ese were things that you think should be in the 5 ru le? 6 MR. MYERS: Would be a part of this 7 pa ragraph. It makes the clarification that -- 8 MR. EISNER: This paragraph here? 9 MR. MYERS: Yes. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. What do you want to add 11 an d where? 12 MR. MYERS: Two sentences. "Multiple AEDMs 13 ar e allowed within a single validation class. 14 Ho wever, each AEDM must meet the minimum number of 15 re quired model tests." Second sentence, "A single 16 AE DM can span multiple validation classes. However, 17 al l validation classes must include the required model 18 te sts." 19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any comment on that 20 su ggestion? Any objection? 21 MR. KLEISS: The first sentence that he read 22 is I think covered already in there.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 231 1 MR. EISNER: Right. 2 MR. MYERS: Okay. 3 MR. KLEISS: The second sentence, I think 4 th at is valid. 5 MR. EISNER: I think he added two sentences 6 af ter this. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. First. This is one 8 mo re. 9 MR. MYERS: Ashley, one other aspect of it 10 th at we may need to make clear is that anything you 11 sp an, anything you touch as a validation class, 12 se parately you have to do the models to support the 13 te st models to support that. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 15 MR. MYERS: That's it, I guess. Yes. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wrong way. 17 MR. MYERS: That is a simpler way of saying 18 wh at I had just said. Very good. 19 MR. THARP: That made it clear. So we don't 20 ne ed it made clearer. 21 MR. MYERS: Right. 22 MR. EISNER: Are you going to leave this

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 232 1 he re? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I may make it a 3 se ntence, but okay. Hold on. 4 MR. STARR: Be grammatical. 5 MR. EISNER: We refer to this as leading to 6 th e Committee on Style. 7 MR. STARR: Yes. 8 MR. EISNER: The Committee on Style is 9 As hley. 10 MR. CYMBALSKY: The charge in here is 11 wr iting English. 12 MR. EISNER: Up to this point -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, understand it better. 14 MR. EISNER: Up to this point in the 15 do cument, on the vote on approval, does anybody want 16 to abstain? 17 Does any object to this being part of the 18 do cument? 19 Okay. The chart. Any objections on the 20 ch art? Any questions on the chart? 21 Okay. Does anybody want to abstain from 22 vo ting on this?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 233 1 Does anybody object to it? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need to see what the -- 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Now it's the chart. Didn't 4 yo u want to talk about the -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want to talk about the 6 fo otnote. Well, the footnote goes away. And the 7 mo del goes to basic model. And we just have to agree 8 on the list. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we agree with that 11 ch ange? 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And I'll make that 14 ch ange throughout. 15 MR. EISNER: So every one of these is going 16 to say, "basic models"? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. 18 MR. EISNER: Everybody is okay with that? 19 No abstentions? 20 No objections? 21 MR. MYERS: Maybe I just missed it, but I 22 fo und "package," four of those, in there. Did I just

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 234 1 mi ss it? 2 MS. BARHYDT: That's a different table. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not there yet. 4 MR. MYERS: Oh, sorry. Thank you. 5 MR. EISNER: There are no abstentions. Does 6 an ybody object to this chart being part of the report 7 to ASRAC? 8 Okay. So it got approved. We're on to the 9 ne xt category: water heater, heaters validation 10 cl asses. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: This will be the same. 12 MR. KLEISS: Maybe we can get rid of the 13 fo otnotes. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 15 MR. KLEISS: Validations. I realize that 16 th is is not going to change what needs to be on the 17 ch art, but I have to make a comment that it is my 18 op inion that unpowered water heater storage tanks do 19 no t have any test procedure that is applicable to 20 ma nufacturers. 21 MR. EISNER: Talking about this one here? 22 MR. KLEISS: I am talking about water

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 235 1 st orage tanks. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would you like me to read 3 th e definition right now for you? 4 MR. KLEISS: We've done that before. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 6 MR. STANONIK: It's not a question of the 7 de finition. It's a question of what the standard is, 8 fo r the ASHRAE standard. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: The ASHRAE standard is an R10 va lue. And the test procedure is included in the 11 de finition, which is how ASHRAE did it as well. 12 MR. KLEISS: Test of the R-value, not test 13 of the water heater. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 15 MR. KLEISS: Yes. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the point, the regulated 17 en tity is the water heater manufacturer for the R. 18 MR. KLEISS: I just needed to go on record 19 wi th that. 20 MR. EISNER: Let me be clear. When you say 21 yo u wanted to go on record, do you want to go on 22 re cord as part of the vote or just so that we all hear

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 236 1 it and it's typed up and everything? 2 MR. KLEISS: I think just so we hear it and 3 I get it on there. The fact that it is on this table 4 I don't think -- as long as it being on this table 5 do es not imply that I condone the fact that or the 6 im plication that it should be tested by manufacturer. 7 MR. EISNER: Again, I'm not sure we're 8 ta lking about how you voted. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we have an open issue; 10 ri ght? We have an open issue of how the R-value -- by 11 pu tting it on this table, it is allowing you 12 po tentially one day to the extent that we resolve that 13 is sue to use an AEDM. 14 MR. KLEISS: Understand. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can take it out. 16 MR. KLEISS: I understand. And if it comes 17 to that, I would much rather add this there. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 19 MR. EISNER: Frank? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And obviously we need to 21 de al with the unfired water heating and cooling. 22 MR. EISNER: Frank?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 237 1 MR. MYERS: I would propose that given this 2 di scussion and the fact that it needs to be on here 3 an d we at the end of the day want it to be on here, 4 th at we change that "two basic models" to "one basic 5 mo del" because we're not really talking about a 6 di fference between models. We are talking about the 7 in sulation and also the fact that most manufacturers 8 ha ve one set of data from their insulation vendor in 9 th eir files. And to go back and get another set of 10 da ta, if you will, it is kind of out of our control. 11 We have to go back and request somebody else. So if 12 it was one, then we could -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a single test. So 14 th is is a single test for two different R-values. 15 Th is is what that means. Two basic models is two 16 di fferent ratings. So, say, R-value 15, R-value 20, 17 th e single test for each of those. 18 MR. KLEISS: We may not have one R-value. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. Then that 20 wo uld be your -- 21 MR. FLY: You don't have any in? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. You have your

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 238 1 te st. 2 MR. FLY: Okay. 3 MR. EISNER: Is everybody -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now -- yes. 5 MR. EISNER: You are okay with that? Are 6 yo u okay with that? 7 MR. KLEISS: They are not basic models, in 8 ef fect. This is two -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is. It's different 10 ra tings. 11 MR. KLEISS: Two R-values. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So my proposal here is 13 ei ther we take it off the table completely, we take it 14 ou t, or we leave it as is. 15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 16 Th ere's no question there's a significant unresolved 17 is sue on unpowered storage tanks as to testing and 18 wh ere it happened and whatever. I would suggest where 19 it says "leave the validation class" and where it 20 sa ys, "minimum number," why don't we just put "To be 21 de termined"? 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the same as taking it

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 239 1 ou t. It has to go -- 2 MR. STANONIK: Well, no. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It has to go through a rule 4 to change it. 5 MR. STANONIK: If you take it out, it's not 6 on the list; right? It's not on the table. Like you 7 sa id, if it is on the table, it still allows -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: I can't issue a rule that 9 sa ys, "To be determined." 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. If it doesn't have 11 a number in there, it would be taken out of the 12 pr oposal. 13 MR. STANONIK: Laura, thank you. Thank you. 14 Th e proper terminology is "Reserved." Right? There 15 ar e rules where that -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can't use it. There is 17 no difference. 18 MS. BARHYDT: There is no AEDM in them. 19 MR. EISNER: How about if you -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no AEDM. They 21 ca nnot use one. 22 MR. EISNER: How about if we put a footnote

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 240 1 in here and DOE, under authority, agrees to raise this 2 is sue in an NPRM? Say, "Here is where we stand. 3 Th ere were some concerns about what this should mean." 4 MR. STEPHENS: I think we are okay as is 5 be cause some manufacturers actually use wrap 6 in sulation and foam insulation depending on what 7 pr oduct line it is. And if they want to choose to do 8 an AEDM based on that, then there would be a case 9 wh ere you have different R-values that you could work 10 wi th. I think this gives us more flexibility for 11 ma nufacturers going forward, however they come up with 12 th is solution and determination for this case. 13 MR. KLEISS: My comments about the two basic 14 mo dels are that maybe it should be two samples or 15 so mething of that sort because the insulation value 16 ha s absolutely nothing to do with the design of the 17 ta nk. It is a test of the transmissive quality of a 18 co upon cut out that has nothing to do with a tank 19 de sign. And so it is not a test of a basic model. It 20 is a test of a sample of the insulating material. 21 MR. STEPHENS: The units are per unit 22 le ngth. So then it's just a factor of whatever

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 241 1 ca tegories you have. Right? That's why we have this 2 is sue. The term "basic model" -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: My proposal is take out the 4 ta ble and put it under water heater. 5 MS. BARHYDT: No AEDM. And we'll add AEDM 6 fo r this product and the appropriate test procedure. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's open-ended. It's open 8 no w. 9 MR. STANONIK: If it's established that, in 10 fa ct, testing is required, testing of the water -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have regs. Now, I 12 wo uldn't consider it -- 13 MR. STANONIK: Testing of -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: There is a regulatory 15 re quirement now. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: It was made from ASHRAE. 17 MR. STANONIK: We should not bog down this 18 me eting having this discussion. 19 MALE SPEAKER: Take it out. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I remove it? 21 MULTIPLE SPEAKERS: Take it out. 22 MR. MYERS: I would disagree. I would say

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 242 1 we can always change what we do in a rulemaking, but 2 le ave it in. 3 MR. STANONIK: Yes. 4 MR. MYERS: That gives us the opportunity, 5 as Ashley said, to me it is a bit ridiculous, but at 6 le ast it is in the AEDM. 7 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's have a vote 8 on this. How many people object? How many people 9 ob ject to taking it out? First, how many abstain on 10 th e vote on whether it should be in or out? 11 So two are abstaining. How many object to 12 ta king it out? 13 MR. KLEISS: Object to taking it out? 14 MR. EISNER: Taking it out. In other words, 15 it would be left in the chart. 16 MR. KLEISS: Object. 17 MR. EISNER: All right. So there is one 18 ob jection to taking it out. There are two 19 ab stentions. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Raise your hand high. Do it 21 ki ndergarten. Raise your hand high. 22 MR. BAUMAN: We are voting on whether to

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 243 1 ta ke out unfired? Okay. 2 MR. EISNER: Take this line out. 3 MR. BAUMAN: All right. 4 MR. EISNER: There are two objections. 5 MR. BAUMAN: I apologize. I thought we were 6 vo ting on -- 7 MR. EISNER: Sure. 8 MR. BAUMAN: Can I abstain, then, because I 9 do n't -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He abstained. 11 MR. HALLEY: I'll abstain. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Too many. 13 MS. BARHYDT: We have like a lot of them. A 14 lo t of people changed their mind. 15 MR. BAUMAN: Are we just talking about that 16 on e line? 17 MR. EISNER: On this one? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: One line item. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 20 MR. EISNER: Well, abstentions are -- just 21 to get an idea of how many are abstaining, how many 22 wa nt to abstain?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 244 1 With the remaining voters, it is unanimous 2 th at they object, that they want it taken out? 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They want it left in. 4 MR. EISNER: They want it left in? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 6 MR. MYERS: It's very confusing to do it, do 7 yo u want to take it out? Can we just say have the 8 vo te be, do you want to leave that like it is or not? 9 MR. EISNER: All right. Do you want to 10 le ave it like it is? How many people want to abstain? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: The same people. 12 MR. EISNER: How many want to leave it in? 13 MR. KLEISS: I would rather have different 14 wo rding on it, but if that is the -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Jeff? 16 MR. KLEISS: -- sticking point that we 17 ca nnot get past, I would rather have it in as written. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is in or it is out. 19 MR. EISNER: So with this line -- 20 MR. KLEISS: If this is how we are going to 21 do it, I would rather have it in. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Move on.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 245 1 MR. EISNER: With this line in, looking at 2 ch art number 2, how many abstain from voting on this 3 on e? 4 MR. BAUMAN: I have a question. Do we need 5 to add "tested per AEDM" to the final wording? 6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll do that. I promise. 8 MR. BAUMAN: Thank you. 9 MR. EISNER: Okay. How many object to 10 in clusion of this chart? 11 No one objects? All right. Let's go on to 12 nu mber 3. Commercial package. 13 MR. SACHS: The right statement under a lot 14 of abstentions. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm getting there. I've got 16 it . 17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Commercial package, on 18 th e validation question. Can we bring the chart up? 19 Yo u need to scroll up a little bit. We have a 20 fo otnote, I guess, here. We can cut and paste. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That has to got to be 22 si mpler.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 246 1 MR. MOLVIE: Can I ask a question? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 3 MR. MOLVIE: Hello? 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 5 MR. EISNER: We're here. Ask your question. 6 MR. MOLVIE: Okay. This is Pete Molvie. I 7 pr obably missed it if it was on here before the sound 8 st arted working. I wanted to confirm if there was a 9 fi nal definition for basic model for the package to 10 wo rk. We still have the same definition we were 11 di scussing last night in the offline meeting or -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 13 MR. MOLVIE: -- is there anything changed? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nothing changed. 15 MR. MOLVIE: Okay. Thank you. That 16 an swered my question. Thank you. 17 MR. EISNER: Table 3, any discussion? Yes? 18 MR. HALLEY: Yes. I wondered if we need to 19 ke ep a track of the fact that we have got this problem 20 ou tstanding of large units that have been tested at 21 th e manufacturer's facility and possibility with using 22 a different procedure, test procedure. Is this the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 247 1 ap propriate place to put it? 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we have made 3 ac commodations in the process for large units that 4 ca n't be tested or that are factory-installed or COT 5 pr ovisions, whatever it is, to be tested at a 6 ma nufacturing facility. By default, all of this 7 te sting that we are talking about now is required to 8 be done by the manufacturer and can be done at their 9 fa cility or at their facility, totally at their 10 di scretion. Yes. 11 So I think that test procedure is what it 12 is . Until we get through either a test procedure 13 ru lemaking to address the wholesale or the waivers get 14 pr ocessed through, applicable DOE test procedure 15 st ands. That being said, we are committed to working 16 th rough them, yes. We're working on them. 17 MR. EISNER: Right. Okay. Okay. Chart 3, 18 qu estions? Concerns? 19 All right. Voting on table 3, how many 20 pe ople want to abstain from voting? 21 One person is abstaining. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Table 3.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 248 1 MR. EISNER: How many object to the 2 in clusion of table 3 in the report to ASRAC? 3 No? No one objects? One abstention. 4 Table 4. Commercial furnaces, validation 5 cl asses. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hey, Rob, can you just send 7 me the AHRI basic models on commercial furnaces when 8 yo u get a chance? 9 ROB: Yes. 10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Table 4, questions? 11 Co ncerns? 12 How many people want to abstain from the 13 vo te? 14 No one. How many object to inclusion of 15 ch art number 4 in the report to ASRAC? 16 Okay. Number 5, commercial refrigeration 17 eq uipment validation classes. Any questions? Any 18 co ncerns? 19 Anybody want to abstain from the vote? 20 One abstention. Two abstentions. Three. 21 Ho w many object to the including of table 5 in the 22 re port to ASRAC?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 249 1 Okay. Unanimous. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that -- 3 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Can I -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that note need to be 5 cl arified? 6 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. If we can clarify what we 7 di scussed, I mean, I trust you with the wording of 8 th at. 9 MR. EISNER: ENT, E-N is in the wrong place. 10 Ok ay. 11 Are you going to clarify the footnote? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll have to think about 13 th at. 14 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll have good words, but -- 16 MR. BAUMAN: The composition of the models 17 do es not increase the number of models. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 19 MR. BAUMAN: I was thinking, working on it 20 la st night, but I didn't get to any of the -- 21 MR. EISNER: Does anyone want to withhold 22 vo ting until Ashley writes this up and circulates it

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 250 1 or do you want to leave it to Ashley to describe it? 2 MR. BAUMAN: I trust Ashley. 3 MS. DANE: Yes. I don't think -- 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any questions or 5 co mments on the rest of table 5? 6 Abstentions? 7 Any negative votes? Anybody object to 8 in clusion of table 5 with the amendment that Ashley 9 wi ll add to it? 10 Okay. That's unanimous support. That 11 br ings us up to AEDM tolerances, first paragraph and 12 th e two sub-bullets. Questions? 13 MR. STEPHENS: Just a recommendation. If we 14 co uld get examples of the metrics in those two so that 15 we could understand? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I just write preamble 17 la nguage that gives examples further? 18 MR. EISNER: We can add these -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the assumption is 20 en ergy use efficiency is -- 21 MR. STEPHENS: Jeff and I talked about it 22 la st night. And when we looked at it, the first --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 251 1 MR. KLEISS: We both got it wrong. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. EISNER: We can add to the chart, "DOE 4 wi ll add language to the preamble giving examples of 5 th ese tolerances." 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 7 MR. EISNER: And looking from here to here, 8 an y questions? Any concerns? 9 MR. AMRANE: Right. 10 MS. DANE: I have a question on form, sir. 11 MR. EISNER: Yes. Go ahead, Mary. 12 MS. DANE: Mary from Traulsen. Is this an 13 ei ther/or, just for clarification? I might have 14 mi ssed that because I know I was reading it, and it 15 wa s probably late. But is that a you can use one or 16 th e other or you have to apply both? 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Depends on your metric. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Subject. 19 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. Well, that's not what 20 it said. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: For energy consumption 22 me trics, you have to use that one for efficiency --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 252 1 MR. WHITWELL: Either/or. 2 MS. DANE: But it says, "and" at the end. 3 An d that's what threw me off. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they are both 5 re quirements, but your metric is only going to fall 6 in to one. 7 MS. DANE: Okay. 8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other questions? 9 An y concerns? 10 MR. AMRANE: Yes. Karim Amrane, AHRI. The 11 95 percent that is for energy efficiency, for example, 12 is not consistent with the table around when we took 13 10 percent for IEER. It's not 95. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is different, right, 15 di fferent requirements? 16 MR. AMRANE: Different times. Yes. So 17 ma ybe you could reference the tables. I don't know. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is to validate the 19 AE DM. It always has to be within five percent, 20 re gardless. 21 MR. AMRANE: It depends on the IEER. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what we agreed on.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 253 1 MR. EISNER: What were you -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is not for 3 ve rification. 4 MALE SPEAKER: IEER is not a metric today. 5 MR. AMRANE: Today, yes. 6 MALE SPEAKER: So that doesn't apply to 7 IE ER. 8 MR. DOPPEL: There is another chart where we 9 ha ve IEER is ten percent. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. 11 MALE SPEAKER: But that is on the -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is on the verification 13 si de. 14 MALE SPEAKER: -- verification side, yes. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how close your 16 si mulation needs to be to your tested value. And that 17 wa s a five percent across the board. 18 MR. THARP: But this is a concern with any 19 re gulated metrics, which is EER; correct? 20 MR. AMRANE: I don't think we can agree to 21 th at. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You did agree to that.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 254 1 MR. AMRANE: We did? I think we 2 mi sunderstood. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You did vote. 4 MR. STARR: That was on the 5 to 25 percent 5 to lerance on the AEDM. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This has nothing to do 7 wi th verifying whether -- 8 MR. THARP: The AEDM. The AEDM value is a 9 st eady state. And that is EER only. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how close can you 11 si mulate to your tested value. 12 MR. THARP: Right. And the metric is only 13 EE R presently for commercial; right. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We agreed a five percent 15 ac ross the board was how close your simulated value 16 sh ould be to your tested value for you, for tests you 17 do , you control, simulations you do, you control, no 18 th ird party lines, et cetera. 19 When you get to verification testing, when I 20 te st or when Karim tests one of your units, how close 21 do es it need to be to its rated value? That's when we 22 ca me up with a list of products. This is how close

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 255 1 do es your simulation need to be. You are testing your 2 ow n. You are witnessing. You are setting up. You 3 ar e running. Everything is in your control. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Am I missing this? 5 MR. STEPHENS: I think there was a lot of 6 di scussion on this. And then Charles pointed out that 7 th is is just a main shift to be within the tolerances. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, exactly, yes. 9 MR. STEPHENS: It goes to one side of the 10 to lerance. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is one-sided. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 13 MR. SACHS: You all think good about this or 14 I am going to read it through zero tolerance. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: When you choose to test and 16 yo ur simulation is going to show whatever close to 17 th at but then you choose to rate it lower, way lower, 18 gi ving yourself a big cushion, you don't have a 19 si mulation that is showing that way lower. You 20 ac tually haven't tested. 21 MALE SPEAKER: It's one-sided. 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. All right.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 256 1 MR. SACHS: I'm being really nice in 2 al lowing you to sell products, no matter how much 3 be tter they are than the standard. 4 MR. WHITWELL: I think the questions, 5 th ough, are around the fact that we don't today -- 6 IE ER is not a metric that's covered by DOE. Maybe it 7 is going to be in the future. And I don't know about 8 an y others, but we don't have an AEDM currently for 9 IE ER. 10 MALE SPEAKER: Correct, yes. 11 MR. WHITWELL: So we are not sure -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is this directory based 13 on ? 14 MR. WHITWELL: They are based on tests. 15 Ou rs are based on tests -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: All of them. 17 MR. WHITWELL: -- of the basic models. 18 MR. AMRANE: There are maybe two left. They 19 ar e tested. 20 MR. WHITWELL: But they are not. I mean, as 21 we have discussed, they are not with all of the 22 op tions and everything, --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 257 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- which is going to have to 3 go in our AEDM; right? And so I don't know what the 4 im pact -- you know, how accurate our AEDM is going to 5 be when we start getting into a 25 percent load 6 co ndition. And so -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the -- 8 MR. WHITWELL: We are going to have to learn 9 as we go forward on whether we can comply with the 10 sa me tolerance on the -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You should bring it up in 12 th at rule. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Normally -- 14 MR. WHITWELL: We would try. 15 MR. AMRANE: It can be changed in the 16 fu ture. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 18 MR. AMRANE: I think it would be fine. 19 MR. WHITWELL: It is new territory for us, 20 un known. 21 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Regulations can always can

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 258 1 be changed -- 2 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- as long as they're not -- 4 MR. THARP: As we were walking through this 5 di scussion, I know, at least for me, I was under the 6 im pression this was as far as currently regulated DOE 7 re gs. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That was my thought as 9 we ll. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 11 MR. SACHS: I also felt that. 12 MALE SPEAKER: You can just take it out. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's right. I mean, I can 14 ta ke IEER out of the next table -- 15 MALE SPEAKER: Right. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- because where it says 17 th at 18

-- 19 MR. WHITWELL: Or we could just say -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We supposedly had a 21 di scussion around -- 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 259 1 MR. WHITWELL: Or we could say that this is 2 fo r current metrics. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it is only going to be 4 re quired. You don't have to certify the plans until 5 th ere is a standard. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Standard. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, until we get to an IEER 8

-- 9 MR. WHITWELL: All right. Okay. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- standard, which is seven 11 ye ars away maybe, if we decide to, then -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: Someone else's problem then. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Off the record. 14 MALE SPEAKER: No, no, no. 15 MR. EISNER: Too late. It's too late. You 16 ar e recorded. 17 Where do we stand on this? Does somebody 18 wa nt to tell us? Is everybody in agreement now? 19 MR. THARP: It is fine. One-sided is fine. 20 MR. EISNER: Let's vote on this. 21 MR. BAUMAN: Can I ask for something? Is it 22 al so to include an example in the preamble?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 260 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, right here. 2 MR. BAUMAN: I'm sorry. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what you want? 4 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Thank you. 5 MR. EISNER: Okay. We anticipated your 6 me aning. 7 MR. BAUMAN: Thanks, Ashley. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We aim to please at the 9 De partment. 10 MR. EISNER: Abstentions? No abstentions? 11 Anybody object to including this language in 12 th e report to ASRAC? 13 Okay. That brings us up to application of 14 va lidated AEDM and certified ratings, here and here. 15 An y concerns and questions? 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This just says the certified 17 ra ting can be conservative in a lot of words. 18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody ready to vote? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you can read it all the 20 wa y down to the standard. 21 MR. EISNER: Any abstentions on this vote? 22 Any objections to including this in the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 261 1 re port to ASRAC? 2 Okay. Unanimous. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, here we go. 4 MR. EISNER: DOE verification. Why don't 5 yo u make a summary of the voting? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I did it at the top. 7 I summarized. 8 MS. BARHYDT: That's a different one. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. You are right. 10 MR. EISNER: Are we taking multiple bullets 11 he re? Do we want to go through them separately or do 12 we want the whole section to be voted on? 13 MR. STEPHENS: I have one comment. Down in 14 th e second to last bullet on the bottom of the page, 15 th is specifically limits us to phone conversations. 16 Ca n we just leave it open as communicating because we 17 co uld do -- we could use videoconferencing. A lot of 18 ti mes videoconferencing and being able to physically 19 cr ack at something in the lab is -- 20 MS. BARHYDT: It is a little more up. 21 MR. EISNER: This bullet? 22 MR. STEPHENS: The third bullet.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 262 1 MS. BARHYDT: Via phone. 2 MR. STEPHENS: It's paging. The third 3 bu llet from the bottom, the fourth line down. 4 MR. EISNER: Over here? 5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 6 MR. EISNER: So do you want to just say, 7 "D iscussion with the lab"? 8 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, please. 9 MR. EISNER: "To discuss additional 10 de tails." 11 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: "Discussion with lab on 13 ad ditional details." 14 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. If we can just leave it 15 as -- 16 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay with that 17 ch ange? 18 MR. STEPHENS: Absolutely. 19 MR. EISNER: All right. Do we want to go 20 th rough this bullet by bullet or are you comfortable 21 en ough that you understand the whole thing? Yes? 22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Let's

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 263 1 se e. The third bullet. Yes. That's it. Okay. And 2 th en the first sub-bullet says, "Any additional 3 in formation that is needed regarding test setup or 4 te sting will be provided from the manufacturer or 5 th ird party representative to DOE through the 6 ce rtification process." Do we all agree that it has 7 to be provided through the certification process? 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 9 MR. WHITWELL: So we still talked about 10 ha ving to have a process, what that process is going 11 to be for that. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But what it means is you 13 ca n't provide it to someone else. You have to provide 14 it to the Department. 15 MR. STEPHENS: That implies that the -- 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Not directly to the lab. Is 17 th at what you are saying? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not directly to the lab. 19 No t directly to a third party. I mean, you could 20 pr ovide it to a third party, but that third party 21 st ill has to provide it to us. Ultimately, it has to 22 go through DOE before it can get to the lab.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 264 1 MR. STANONIK: My understanding of that 2 wo rding would say it has to be part of my 3 ce rtification report. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We agree. 5 MR. MYERS: Really? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why not? 7 MR. STANONIK: There is only one 8 ce rtification process. It happens before you go to 9 co mmerce, theoretically. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, in theory, you may 11 no t know we are testing a product. So whatever 12 in formation should be on here at the outside before 13 yo u distribute in commerce when you certify or 14 wh atever that ends up meaning. 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, so what we do today, 16 wh at we do today. 17 MR. STANONIK: That's fine, but what you do 18 to our program, our program at the moment -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: It doesn't give it to -- 20 MR. STANONIK: This residual stuff, yes. We 21 wo uldn't give all that -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: I realize you don't get into

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 265 1 th at, but we will probably -- 2 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right. 3 MS. HOOTMAN: -- be back telling you you are 4 go ing to give it to them. 5 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you want us to use it. 7 MR. EISNER: Paul? 8 MR. DOPPEL: I have something for the next 9 se ntence. 10 MR. MYERS: On that one, I have a question. 11 If we did not provide information when we put the 12 in formation out in the program and this was a custom 13 pi ece of equipment or one-off, so they had to come to 14 us to get it built, would we have an opportunity to 15 pr ovide that information to DOE? This says only 16 th rough certification. Isn't it really just if it is 17 to be provided, it has to be provided to DOE, -- 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 19 MR. MYERS: -- as opposed to -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer -- 21 MR. MYERS: -- strictly through 22 ce rtification?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 266 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The way that I read this 2 ri ght now is the answer would be no. If you need to 3 su bmit something, you need to either revise your cert 4 re port or submit it as part of your certification. 5 MR. MYERS: From your own lab? 6 MR. EISNER: What's the process now? 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What? 8 MR. EISNER: What's the process? 9 MR. MYERS: From your own lab? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So there was a discussion 11 ab out that yesterday as to whether we should even use 12 in formation from OMs or whether we should rely on OMs 13 or , really, this testing or whatever you want to call 14 it , -- it's just more information for tests -- should 15 be separate and shouldn't have to be included in OMs 16 be cause, really, it is unnecessary. So I thought the 17 id ea was you would prefer to have it separate, you 18 wo uld prefer not to have it in your OMs. 19 MR. MYERS: Right. 20 MR. WHITWELL: Clarification. I think we 21 al ways would like the lab to install it for our OMs. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. So in the --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 267 1 MR. WHITWELL: But then there is additional 2 in formation -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 4 MR. WHITWELL: -- required in order to run 5 fo r the test procedures. 6 MR. MYERS: Right. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. So to the 8 ex tent that something says, you know, "set up in 9 ac cordance with my OM," it is going to be set up with 10 wh atever shipped with the unit. 11 MR. WHITWELL: Right. 12 MR. AMRANE: And is the information 13 co nfidential or is the information public information? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was yesterday, too. 15 MR. AMRANE: Was it? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So to a certain extent, 17 it depends. We can have a discussion. We have not 18 go ne there yet because we haven't really talked about 19 wh at information is all going to be sent in to the 20 De partment. We can have a discussion about what DOE 21 pr oactively makes available. We do not have the 22 ab ility to negotiate what ultimately is releasable

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 268 1 un der FOIA because that is governed by the Freedom of 2 In formation Act. So we can talk about what DOE is 3 pr oactive about releasing, but ultimately FOIA is 4 go ing to determine what information is confidential. 5 Co nfidential business information can be withheld, but 6 th at doesn't mean that the fact that you submitted 7 so mething to the Department is necessarily 8 co nfidential. I mean, it may be that we provide a 9 pi ece of paper with a big black box on it, but it just 10 de pends on what ultimately is on the piece of paper. 11 MR. FLY: Is there something that we have to 12 pr oactively do to flag to you that we feel it is 13 co nfidential information? 14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. We can talk about all of 15 th at when -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are processing it 17 to gether. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Well, when we talk about 19 in formation being submitted to the Department. We can 20 ta lk about what that process would be. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Don't they get a crack at 22 th e FOIA before it goes --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 269 1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes. So before we 2 re lease anything, we send it back to the person who 3 su bmitted it to us. And we get your views on what you 4 be lieve to be confidential information. 5 MR. EISNER: Going back to this issue about 6

-- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you have to make a claim 8 at that point. 9 MR. EISNER: Ashley? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes? 11 MR. EISNER: Going back to the issue of 12 su bmitting to the certification process -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 14 MR. EISNER: -- is that as simple as sending 15 a letter saying, "I would like to add to or be 16 in cluded in my certification package the following new 17 do cument"? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think what we do is 19 pr obably make it even easier than that. As part of 20 th e process of submitting the documentation, -- we 21 wi ll have to work this out -- you would just upload a 22 fi le, which would be held in our -- like a .pdf file

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 270 1 th at would be held in our SQL database associated with 2 th at basic model, -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Certification. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- with that certification. 5 An d then the way we have it is if you revise it at any 6 ti me, it would show the latest entry as the active 7 on e. And whenever we needed to pull it, we could. 8 MR. EISNER: So did that satisfy the 9 co ncerns on going through the certification process? 10 MR. MYERS: Sure. That would be fine 11 be cause then if we felt that it was information that 12 th e Department could benefit from in the setup and we 13 ha d failed to provide it several years earlier but now 14 yo u are actually getting one, then we could upload it 15 to that. And that would be available to me. 16 MS. BARHYDT: You can always revise your 17 ce rtification. 18 MR. MYERS: So yes. That was a problem. 19 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Concerns? 20 MR. THARP: Yes. I had -- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: You may not be able to 22 re vise it while we are in test --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 271 1 MR. MYERS: Yes. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- to change something. 3 MR. MYERS: I understand. 4 MR. EISNER: Go ahead. Go ahead. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're testy at 2:00 o'clock. 6 MR. THARP: I'm just saying, what is the 7 di fference between this verification testing and the 8 as sessment testing of 429.14? 9 MS. BARHYDT: That's what this is. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: New terms. 11 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. The next sentence, "DOE 12 wi ll then provide this information to the laboratory 13 as long as it is in accordance." And that probably 14 sh ould say, "with the appropriate DOE test procedure." 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I need to do a 16 gl obal for -- 17 MR. EISNER: For the word "in." 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: "Applicable"? Is that okay? 19 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, "applicable." 20 MS. BARHYDT: But it's also "with," instead 21 of 22

--

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 272 1 MR. EISNER: No. It's "with the 2 ap plicable," not "in." 3 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, not "in" but "with." 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that would include 5 wa iver? 6 MR. MYERS: Right. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 8 MR. EISNER: Others? This is a long 9 se ction. Does anybody want to focus on it more or are 10 yo u ready to go? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 12 MR. EISNER: Can you get more on a page or 13 le t's focus it. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll try. I don't think so. 15 We 're going to have to do two pages. 16 MR. SACHS: Cover your left eye. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we vote? Are we okay 18 wi th what is shown on the screen right now? 19 MR. SACHS: That helps. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's four bullets. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are we okay with the first 22 fo ur?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 273 1 Then I'll move to the next set. 2 MALE SPEAKER: Do you want to get it up as 3 we ll? 4 MR. EISNER: Let's just go. I think there 5 is only one more bullet, isn't there? 6 MS. BARHYDT: No. 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. The next -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: There's like four more. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: The next page. 10 MR. EISNER: So from this part down to here, 11 do es anybody want to abstain? 12 Are there any objections to including this 13 in the report to ASRAC? 14 I see none. Let's go to the rest. Now we 15 go to "If the unit is outside, down to here, option 16 ab ove regarding the testing." 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 18 MR. EISNER: This one? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's this one. 20 MR. EISNER: "If the unit is outside, down 21 to here, option above regarding the testing." Two 22 se conds to read it.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 274 1 MS. HOOTMAN: I still don't know how that 2 te n percent is calculated. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's based on how you do 4 yo ur certifications. If you put in 500, it would be 5 10 percent of 500. If you put in five -- 6 MS. HOOTMAN: In the verification classes or 7

-- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Certification, your sort of 9 ba sic models, the way it's written now. 10 MR. DOPPEL: Weren't we going to have more 11 di scussion about that ten percent after we talked 12 ab out models? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are here. 14 MR. DOPPEL: Good. Because I know that was 15 Ka ren's. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 17 MR. DOPPEL: Karen wanted to maybe have some 18 (i naudible). Is ten percent the right number? Is it 19 go ing to be 12? Is it going to be 20? 20 MR. WHITWELL: We haven't really finalized 21 th e basic model. They have a definition, but there is 22 a lot of, you know, all that stuff underneath that is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 275 1 no t final yet. 2 MR. EISNER: Now, let me ask you to put it 3 th is way, in terms of are we following this or having 4 a long time perhaps discussing this issue? Do you 5 wa nt to say 10 percent with other options or a range 6 of 5 percent to 15 percent or is that in the preamble 7 fo r discussion? 8 MR. DOPPEL: Or we can just start with 20 9 pe rcent and negotiate it after that. 10 MS. HOOTMAN: Or can it go forward with an - 11

- 12 MS. BARHYDT: Send it to ASRAC. 13 MR. STANONIK: Or leave it for resolution at 14 th e next meeting. 15 MR. EISNER: Do people want to make an 16 ar gument for another -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're there now. I mean, to 18 a certain extent, yes, we need to provide for 19 re solution on that list. But it is still going to 20 co me down to how you each independently decide to 21 ce rtify and weigh our risks and our options. So even 22 if I told you today wholesale, which is not the

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 276 1 De partment's position today, but if I told you 2 wh olesale will take your list, you know, one 3 ma nufacturer still may do 100. The next manufacturer 4 ma y do 400. I can see that just by looking at the age 5 of our directory. One person does 1,400 and another 6 pe rson does 200. You know, ten percent of those two 7 nu mbers is very different, but that is what you weigh. 8 I am not sure that your resolution of that list is 9 go ing to change. This is really about how you are 10 go ing to implement that, I mean, I guess. And it is 11 on a manufacturer-to- manufacturer basis. 12 MR. DOPPEL: We just pulled the ten percent 13 ou t of the air the other day. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You did because it has to be 15 so mething that the Department -- you know, at this 16 po int because you guys want to be able to say, "I want 17 to be at the first test for some of them"; whereas, 18 ou r position was we think we can do the first test 19 wi thout the manufacturer except for the few conditions 20 an d then give you the auto retest, which automatically 21 al lows you to be there in the cases where there may be 22 an issue. But we heard concerns still with that. So

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 277 1 we are trying to get some middle ground here, but that 2 mi ddle ground to alleviate our concerns is going to 3 ha ve to be pretty narrow. 4 MR. DOPPEL: Yes. 5 MR. WHITWELL: I think the issue, at least 6 fo r me, is that we might have a new product line that 7 wo uld represent a number of different capacity sizes. 8 An d it could range across a fairly wide range of our 9 ca pacities that we have above 65,000 BTU per hour. It 10 co uld be more than ten percent. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you going to have to -- 12 MR. WHITWELL: And then we are going to have 13 to guess, well, which one might DOE pick? And you 14 mi ght pick one that we -- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm guessing like -- 16 MR. WHITWELL: I'm just running that out. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ten percent is not going to 18 be more than these models that you would certify. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean at times. I 20 me an, we've got 20. It depends on what the base model 21

-- I mean, we've got, -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Keep in mind here heaven is

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 278 1 a little practical, too. 2 MR. WHITWELL: -- say, 20 different classes. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not going to come tell 4 yo u I want your most expensive bells and whistles 5 un it. 6 MR. WHITWELL: No, but I am assuming -- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I could, but -- 8 MS. HOOTMAN: Once you saw it; right? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I may decide to use my 10 re sources a little differently. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: We don't let the Pentagon 12 pa ss on that. 13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. 14 I am assuming that the bells and whistles 15 ar e outside of the basic model. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You are going to have 17 to maintain your -- I mean, to the extent you guys 18 wa nt this, it is fine, but you are always going to 19 ha ve to maintain that ten percent. And each time you 20 co me out with a new product or product line or 21 in novative technology or discontinue one or bring one 22 in , it is a rolling thing to check the box or uncheck

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 279 1 th e box or keep track of that. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And you still have if it's not 3 th ere and you are right there -- 4 MR. WHITWELL: I agree. I am just thinking 5 ab out -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: -- the first test, you get a 7 re test. 8 MR. WHITWELL: For me, I don't think it's so 9 mu ch of an issue -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You get the -- 11 MR. WHITWELL: -- but other people raised 12 th is concern and I am trying to represent them. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. 14 MS. BARHYDT: But there are no -- 15 MR. DOPPEL: Fifteen percent would be nice 16 mi ddle ground between 20 and 10. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yours are always there. 18 Fa ir? 19 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I am not sure. 20 MR. STANONIK: Would it make any difference 21 if this criteria were applied to X percent of basic 22 mo del groups?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 280 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not going to use a 2 ne w term. We need to be able to have a term that we - 3

- 4 MR. RIVEST: And relate to the database 5 be cause -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, our database. 7 MR. STANONIK: Wait a minute. But if I have 8 ap plied an AEDM; right, I have an AEDM -- 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: There will be no such thing 10 as basic model groups in our regs. 11 MR. STANONIK: Okay. Fair enough. 12 Here's my point. Here's my point. I use an 13 AE DM; right? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 15 MR. STANONIK: And it does encompass this 16 ra nge of models. It will have different efficiency 17 ra tings. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. 19 MR. STANONIK: All right? And I might feel 20 th at for that particular set of models that comes with 21 th at AEDM, if DOE tests any one of those because they 22 ar e all suspect once I test one; right, I want to be

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 281 1 pr esent. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. I really do get 3 it . I understand -- 4 MR. STANONIK: Okay. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- what you guys are saying, 6 bu t I think -- 7 MR. RIVEST: He wasn't here yesterday. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: He was. 9 MS. BARHYDT: I thought he was. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I really do get it. I 11 th ink, you know, for the models that don't get into 12 th is bucket, you get the auto retest for. It's not 13 li ke we're taking away, you know -- in some instances, 14 au to retest is really probably more valuable because 15 yo u don't have to keep track. Some people probably 16 wo n't even opt to use the ten percent. 17 MR. STANONIK: Actually, where we are trying 18 to go with this, if it was based on now that he's got 19 a group with an AEDM, a number like five percent might 20 be more palatable because it still encompasses a lot 21 of models. 22 MR. MYERS: If I could restate and make sure

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 282 1 I understand what you are saying, if I could restate 2 it ? If you had 20 AEDMs that you could select 5 3 pe rcent, any model within 5 percent of those AEDMs, 4 ki nd of thing? 5 MR. STANONIK: Well, I was actually -- well, 6 I was still using in my mind BMGs. It would be five 7 pe rcent of my BMGs. 8 MR. MYERS: All right. But BMGs, the 9 cl osest that we get to that -- 10 MR. STANONIK: Right. 11 MR. MYERS: -- is AEDM bridges. You could 12 co nceivably drop it down to the AHRI definition of a 13 ba sic model group. And that is an AEDM. The next 14 ba sic model group was another. You could do that. 15 MR. STANONIK: Yes except it is likely that, 16 fo r a lot of reasons, the gray band is going to cover 17 se veral BMGs. 18 MR. MYERS: It is possible. 19 MR. STANONIK: All right. No more. 20 MR. MYERS: Yes. 21 MR. THARP: Actually, I do have one 22 qu estion. On the first option there, if a manufacturer

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 283 1 ha s 100 basic models, then that means they are allowed 2 to choose 10 models to use that option on. What 3 ha ppens to the -- does not having a retest option 4 ap ply to the other 90 or just to the 10? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to the ten. 6 MR. THARP: Okay. 7 MR. KLEISS: That being the case, can we 8 re phrase that? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I need to work this in 10 an yway to like the -- I mean, I just added this as we 11 we re going yesterday. It is not really within the 12 fl ow of things. The idea would be that you give up 13 th e retest for just those you left. 14 MR. THARP: Thank you. I think it is very 15 fa ir. 16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I am fine with it. 17 MR. EISNER: So where are we now on this? 18 Ar e we ready to take a vote? Okay. Are you talking 19 ab out the whole part or do you want to go on this -- 20 MR. BAUMAN: I should say, you know, I know 21 ea rlier we did -- I am okay. I actually would stay on 22 th is one because I think it's just going to continue

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 284 1 to add more complexity and confusion later in life. I 2 wo uld abstain one last item, but I am fine with the 3 wh ole thing as it is. 4 MR. EISNER: Okay. I would also raise the 5 fa ct that Ashley said that she is going to need to do 6 so me editing in this. 7 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Why would Ashley have to 8 do that? 9 MR. EISNER: Do people feel comfortable with 10 he r doing the editing or because of the sensitivity of 11 th is issue, do you want to see it after it is done? 12 We talked earlier about she could circulate this one 13 pa rt quickly. Do others want to see it? 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to put this -- 15 MR. MYERS: She's bringing a note here now. 16 MR. EISNER: Yes. She's making it clear 17 wh at she wants to change. Do you want to see the 18 ch ange? Does anybody want to see the change? 19 Okay. Good. Okay. Let's run around all of 20 th e remaining stuff. Are there any people who want to 21 ab stain? 22 MS. HOOTMAN: All the way down to that

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 285 1 cl arification? Yes. 2 MR. EISNER: Thank you. Does anybody 3 ab stain from the vote on this? 4 No abstentions. Does anyone object to 5 in cluding this in the report or that should come out 6 of there? Okay. I see no objections. Let's go on to 7 th e next. This is your verification of laboratory 8 re quirements. Now is your chance to put a vote in. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just put it here. 10 MR. EISNER: The next issue is verification 11 of laboratory requirements, one paragraph. Any 12 qu estions? Any comments? 13 MR. MYERS: We had the discussion yesterday 14 ab out what constitutes very large. And there were a 15 co uple of recommendations made for commercial packaged 16 bo ilers and very large or large commercial water 17 he aters. To put some definition on what those are, 18 co uld you remind me, Ashley, where did we end up on 19 th at? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so, I mean, to the 21 ex tent -- I think the idea is that they cannot be 22 te sted if they are a party facility. Obviously, we

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 286 1 wo uld go to you guys. That is the idea here. There 2 is no definitive distinction between what is a large 3 co mmercial water heater with a large commercial 4 fu rnace in our regs. There is one for very large, but 5 th ere is not one for commercial water heater. 6 That being said, you know, what I heard from 7 Je ff and what I heard on the phone yesterday, you 8 kn ow, the commercial packaged boilers that he is 9 co ncerned about, you know, that have required factory10 tr ained installers are, for safety issues, start-up 11 an d honestly just can't be tested at a party. There 12 is no other avenue but to test at a manufacturer's 13 fa cility. And that is a no-brainer. 14 You know, to the point of you are just not 15 co mfortable with someone testing, you know, a third 16 pa rty laboratory testing a certain type of pilot, that 17 is a different issue. 18 MR. EISNER: Yes. 19 MR. STEPHENS: It is a part of the same 20 is sue in terms of you are saying if it cannot be 21 te sted, if someone is willing to build a building -- I 22 ha ve never tested anything before, but I am going to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 287 1 bu ild a building so that I can -- and I will test 2 ac cording to that requirement. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that gets to Mary's 4 po int yesterday of maybe we should consider laboratory 5 ac creditation requirements. 6 MR. STEPHENS: And a number of us 7 ma nufacturers are satellite facilities of, say, you 8 kn ow, 25 labs. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. But if you are telling 10 me that you are a satellite facility but that primary 11 la b can't test, I have an issue with their being the - 12 - in your facility. 13 MR. STEPHENS: It isn't that they can't read 14 th e standards and go down and check off those items, 15 bu t, as we described in -- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: If they can't implement the 17 te st and run the DOE test procedure, how can they 18 au dit your facility to be able to? 19 MR. STEPHENS: It is a BTU or a water -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: If they can't, we cannot, 21 pe ople are not capable of running the test, we will 22 go t you, no issue. But, just because you are making a

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 288 1 ju dgment that they are not capable -- 2 MR. THARP: No, no, no. The difference 3 be tween capable and -- 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, if they are 5 yo ur auditor and you're telling me you're not 6 co mfortable with testing, then how are you comfortable 7 wi th them being your auditor? 8 MR. MYERS: As I mentioned yesterday or 9 ma ybe it was the last meeting, we trained a number of 10 th ose to try to help them know how to test with the 11 ki nd of equipment that we provide. And so here we are 12 ta king it from the trainer and giving it to somebody 13 wh o really doesn't -- the reason we train them is they 14 al most never run the tests themselves, almost never. 15 It is always done in the manufacturer's facility. So 16 th eir experience level in the details of how do you 17 se t up, how you would make decisions on implementing 18 th e test into your equipment -- 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they are confident 20 en ough to tell you you are able to run the test 21 co rrectly. 22 MR. MYERS: 170.25 speaks to a training

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 289 1 pr ogram. It does not -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. I understand. But 3 yo u are arguing for you are a manufacturer witness. 4 An d that goes beyond just 170.25. I mean, you have to 5 ha ve a certain test procedure in your scope. They 6 ha ve to come audit and watch you do it and go through 7 it . So for you to tell me your auditor is not 8 co mpetent enough in running it, yet, they're confident 9 en ough in telling you you can, I have a fundamental 10 is sue there. 11 MR. MYERS: I would say that is a lack 12 of familiarity with 170.25 because 170.25 is a 13 pr ocedural 14

-- 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I understand. I 16 un derstand exactly what it is. 17 MR. MYERS: And I can tell you that there 18 ar e not just one but several laboratories that are 19 17 0.25 and have satellite facilities that are -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I want to -- 21 MR. MYERS: -- 170.25 for them. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, through this --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 290 1 MS. BARHYDT: People are -- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I want to get through 3 th is before people leave. 4 MR. STANONIK: Can I suggest an alternative 5 be cause you -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not ready to draw a 7 li ne. So if we are suggesting lines -- 8 MR. STANONIK: No, no, no. But, I mean, you 9 ha ve stated more than once that it is obvious to DOE 10 th at if the third party doesn't have the facilities to 11 te st, you are out of the outfit. I am suggesting 12 ba sically making that a direct statement. 13 So what I would suggest is the first part 14 yo u have there, it would read the same, "All 15 ve rification tests should be conducted at third party 16 te sting facility of DOE's choice except the following 17 co mmercial equipment." And then you delete everything 18 al l the way from May. So it would say "The following 19 co mmercial equipment may be tested in a manufacturer's 20 fa cility upon DOE's request." And then you have the 21 4. Okay? Then you just simply add a sentence that 22 sa ys, "Verification tests for models which exceed the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 291 1 ph ysical capabilities of third party test facilities 2 sh all be tested at the manufacturer's test facility." 3 And the facility there is -- first of all, I 4 am saying any model. You know, I have just dragged I 5 co mmercial refrigeration, whether you wanted it or 6 no t. Basically it's a statement of fact that if you 7 ar e going to test a model -- 8 MR. EISNER: We can just leave this one. 9 MR. STANONIK: -- and you can't test it at 10 th ird party because they don't have the physical 11 ca pability, you are going to have to test it at a 12 ma nufacturer's facility. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that was -- 14 MR. RIVEST: That's obvious. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's clear. 16 MR. EISNER: Well, not to these people. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just sick of sitting. 19 So rry. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we move on. I don't 21 th ink we're going to -- I mean, Frank, I don't 22 di sagree with you --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 292 1 MR. STANONIK: I know. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- as I just said, but I am 3 go ing to have to -- 4 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's take a vote 5 on this one, see if there is enough to resolve this or 6

-- 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the idea here is 8 th at it cannot be tested at a third party test 9 fa cility. And we may request it to be tested at your 10 fa cility. I don't have your full words there, but 11 th at is where we are going here. 12 MR. THARP: I'd say we just delete the 13 pr oduct classes. What if the third party labs are 14 fu ll? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. That's fine. 16 MR. EISNER: Other concerns or objections? 17 Let's vote on inclusion of this language. 18 MR. KLEISS: As long as you remove those 19 it ems, do we have to remove the word "following"? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any abstentions for 22 vo ting on this?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 293 1 MR. HON: One question. If you go to the 2 ma nufacturer's facility, who is responsible for cost? 3 MR. EISNER: Who is responsible for what? 4 MR. HON: Cost. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: Good question. And how long 6 do you want to wait to get into the facility? 7 MR. RIVEST: Is that a threat? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: I am just saying they are 9 fu ll. They are not just sitting there idle. 10 MALE SPEAKER: They are a valuable resource. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have an answer yet. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Have we not resolved that? 13 MS. HOOTMAN: Use a government test 14 fa cility. They have to be paid up front. Well, I want 15 to be paid up front, too. 16 MR. CYMBALSKY: We shut down a government 17 fa cility before we even broke ground. 18 MALE SPEAKER: Test it at your competitors. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Do we need to resolve this 20 be fore voting? Is this -- 21 MR. HON: I was just asking a simple 22 qu estion because we don't follow in our categories at

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 294 1 al l. 2 MS. BARHYDT: I think we need an answer, but 3 I don't know whether I need it for voting. 4 MR. BAUMAN: So it says you will make clear 5 wi th the -- who prepares the deadlines -- 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 7 MR. EISNER: Does this need to be in the 8 re port to ASRAC or can this be handled separately? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10 MR. EISNER: So does that have to be -- 11 MS. DANE: And additional lab 12 ce rtifications, too. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we will get to 14 th at in terms of when we talk about a DOE verification 15 pl an. I realize we are working through a lot of the 16 is sues that would be able to go over. We want to talk 17 ab out laboratory accreditation requirements. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Just as a placeholder. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. 20 MS. BARHYDT: I want to make sure it doesn't 21 ge t lost or that we're not going to go back and 22 ad dress

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 295 1

-- 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I don't need to put 3 so mething in ASRAC right now; right? Is that okay? 4 Ok ay. 5 MR. EISNER: So you are not going to be -- 6 th is isn't going to be part of the report. 7 MR. BAUMAN: Is that a footnote that you are 8 go ing to make later? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to clarify it 10 at some point. It may take us a little while if we 11 ha ve to ask like procurement and other people that -- 12 MR. EISNER: It doesn't have to be in the 13 re port to ASRAC? So everybody agrees on that? 14 An ybody disagrees? 15 Any abstentions? 16 Any objections to including this in the 17 re port to ASRAC? 18 Okay. Unanimous vote on that. Verification 19 to lerances. How far down does this go? Okay. From 20 th e chart, everybody up to -- here. Let's look at the 21 pa ragraphs that precede the chart. Any questions or 22 co ncerns about the introductory paragraph?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 296 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want me to take IEER 2 ou t or just leave it in there. 3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any objections? Any 4 cl arifications or questions? 5 All right. Anybody abstain from voting on 6 th e first two paragraphs? 7 Does anybody object to these first two 8 pa ragraphs being in the report to ASRAC? 9 I see no objections. 10 The chart. Anybody have any questions or 11 pr oblems? 12 Okay. Any abstentions from voting on this? 13 Any objections? 14 I see no objections. 15 The next issue is invalid rating process. 16 An y questions or comments? 17 MR. STEPHENS: Please just use a different 18 wo rd than "whatever." 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: What? 20 MR. STEPHENS: I have a teenage daughter. 21 So I am very sensitive to "whatever." 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Where is it?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 297 1 MR. STEPHENS: Third bullet point, second 2 li ne down. 3 MALE SPEAKER: And that is her answer to you 4 fo r most questions? 5 MR. STEPHENS: Whatever. 6 MR. EISNER: Would we do okay with "any"? 7 At least we don't have it throughout the document. 8 An y questions? Comments? 9 MR. THARP: Can you roll it up a little bit, 10 pl ease? 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, is it? 12 MR. THARP: Yes. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Sure. These are those 14 th ree options. 15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Does anybody want to 16 ab stain from voting on this? 17 Are there any objections to including this 18 in the report to ASRAC? 19 Okay. I see this as a unanimous vote also. 20 Okay. Will this go in the report to ASRAC? 21 Ok ay. Is this the whole thing or -- 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the whole thing.

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 298 1 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Comments? 2 Co ncerns? 3 MR. WHITWELL: I think we still have -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: We still say a number of 5 in dividual models. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to test an 7 in dividual model. Now, granted, it has repercussions 8 fo r basic models. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it's really based on how 11 ma ny we test. 12 MALE SPEAKER: You could test three 13 in dividual models from a basic model. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We wouldn't need to because 15 th e whole thing is invalid for all the individual -- 16 MALE SPEAKER: There would be no reason. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: There would be no reason for 18 us to unless we needed additional samples for 19 en forcement. 20 MR. FLY: Unless you're trying to catch us, 21 on e of those things that we're trying to get to -- 22 MR. THARP: I would suggest that because we

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 299 1 st ill haven't closed out the basic model definition, 2 th at the quantity numbers would be asterisks. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is not going to matter 4 be cause this is all going to be about how many DOE 5 te sts. It's how many does DOE test. So, regardless 6 of whether you have 500 or whether you have 1,000, if 7 I decide to test, you know -- 8 MR. EISNER: Yes. 9 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. On the 10 co nsequences, we made a lot of progress yesterday. 11 Bu t I ran the numbers this morning. And it is pretty 12 mu ch a flat rate, regardless of the size of the 13 bu siness. So that means it is a significantly higher 14 bu rden on the smaller company than it is on the larger 15 co mpany. 16 MR. BAUMAN: That is within the AEDM, too. 17 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. 18 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, part of that is you 19 co ntrol how many AEDMs you use, I mean, and not only 20 wi thin that AEDM. 21 MR. STEPHENS: Within your process, you will 22 de velop time and effort to making sure there's no

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 300 1 un just burden on the smaller manufacturers, but that 2 co uld be an issue. 3 MR. EISNER: Could you suggest some language 4 th at would satisfy you? 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the idea here would 6 be that it is just like Jeff said. The larger 7 ma nufacturers may, in fact, have 50 AEDMs. So the 8 nu mber of units that they substantiate are going to be 9 a lot larger than dealer's. 10 MR. MYERS: The larger manufacturers -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. So there are a 12 lo t more units for us to pick from, too. 13 MR. MYERS: The larger manufacturers can 14 ha ve a full-time statistician to devote to it. 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyways, all right. We are 16 ge tting towards the end here. Is this something we 17 ar e comfortable voting on? This is the last piece of 18 AE DMs, period. 19 MR. BAUMAN: Maybe just one quick 20 cl arification. First, the consequences of the first 21 on e, you have an AEDM. Two models in that AEDM have 22 be en validated. Is there different testing to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 301 1 va lidate the AEDMs? Okay. 2 MR. MYERS: It would be different if you 3 ha ve a change rate in AEDMs. 4 MR. BAUMAN: But if you have two AEDMs -- 5 MR. THARP: I would just suggest that we 6 le ave this one for voting on the next time if we can, 7 my personal suggestion. It's only two weeks away. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Can you explain what the 9 im pact of this is with basic model? 10 MR. THARP: It's a percentage of how much. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not, though. It's a 12 pe rcentage of how many I-tests. 13 MR. THARP: Right. It's a percentage, but 14 it 's still a percentage of the number of models that I 15 am producing, the number of basic models. 16 MS. BARHYDT: If based on your 17 ce rtification. 18 MR. BAUMAN: Based on how many you test, how 19 ma ny you fail, how many are within a particular -- 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, really -- 21 MR. BAUMAN: If you find two that failed in 22 tw o different AEDMs, then you go get a --

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 302 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The real repercussion rate 2 is if you -- so say you come up with you have 500 3 ba sic models after we get through that list and 4 di scussion; right? You decide. You whittle it down. 5 Yo u have 500 that you want to certify. Really, I just 6 lo ok at it, that's my options for verification. And 7 yo u have told me what AEDMs you use and how you apply 8 th em; right? 9 MR. STANONIK: Right. 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is not going to give you 11 a sense of how I may make my selections. 12 MR. STANONIK: Right. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: There repercussions are 14 to tally based on how I make my selections and the 15 re sult of those, not the options you put in front of 16 me . 17 MR. WHITWELL: Clarification question or 18 ma ybe we're getting into another topic here. But 19 la ter in the package, it talks about using the ICP 20 da ta in lieu of DOE testing. In that case, over a 3- 21 ye ar period, it could be 60 units that get tested. 22 So , I mean, we're not talking about insignificant

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 303 1 nu mbers. 2 MR. STANONIK: Yes. And the other thing -- 3 MR. WHITWELL: So I think until we work 4 th rough that, I am not sure that I can -- 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. You may not 6 wo rk through that issue. You may not get to finality 7 on that issue in the month of June. 8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So but if we will be 9 de ciding -- 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This has to go. 11 MR. WHITWELL: -- on that issue could be 12 im pacted by what we decide something here. 13 MR. STANONIK: Ashley, you gave your 14 pe rspective. So look at the manufacturers' 15 pe rspective. Now we have a pretty good idea of what 16 is basic model. Now we can make from some reasonable 17 as sessment how many AEDMs we actually might need to 18 co ver our range of basic model. Okay? And you say, 19 oh , that doesn't affect your selection. Okay? But it 20 do es affect the manufacturer because let's say I have 21 my 500 basic models and manufacturer A is fortunate 22 en ough to determine I could have one AEDM for my 500

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 304 1 ba sic models. Okay? Well, now, what I have just done 2 is at a risk of two tests over three years. I have 3 lo st my entire business. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. 5 MR. STANONIK: Am I right? 6 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. 7 MR. STANONIK: On the other hand -- 8 MS. BARHYDT: You didn't lose your whole 9 bu siness. You don't have -- 10 MR. STANONIK: I have one AEDM. I only have 11 on e AEDM. 12 MS. BARHYDT: But you only have -- 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two units. And you may 14 al ready have that SES data. 15 MR. STANONIK: This is if they fail; right? 16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, but the consequence is 17 di fferent testing. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: The floor testing. 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: and we say as part of that 20 di scussion it could be testing -- 21 MR. STANONIK: But it still is affecting all 22 yo u are offering. On the other hand, I may decide

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 305 1 wi th this definition of basic model I can cover my 2 of fering with five AEDMs, but that is all I am going 3 to need. It matters for manufacturing. I think they 4 sh ould be given the chance at least to go over a 5 li ttle bit before we decide what the right numbers 6 ar e. 7 MR. THARP: And we could take a vote and get 8 re jected. Send this part to DOE. At this point, it 9 is probably what I personally would do because I 10 pe rsonally had more conversations with others within 11 my company to make sure that they're on board with 12 th is. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think that we are 14 op posed to necessarily leaving it on the table for the 15 be ginning of the next meeting, but leaving it on the 16 ta ble until we get through certification and 17 ve rification programs and industry is not an option. 18 So to us, it's you want to think about this. But, 19 re member, this says the numbers DOE has tested -- 20 MR. STANONIK: Correct. 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- not basic models. 22 MR. STANONIK: I understand. The suggestion

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 306 1 wa s simply leave it as a homework assignment to be 2 co nsidered or decided at the next meeting, which is 3 te n days away. 4 MR. EISNER: This will be the first item, 5 bu t that also means that DOE, as I understand it, 6 wo uld be uncomfortable with you saying, "I can't 7 de cide until we get through further discussions on 8 th at." 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would vote on it. 10 MR. EISNER: You will vote on it. You will 11 vo te on it the first thing next meeting. We will not 12 pr oceed to anything else until we vote on this. 13 MR. KLEISS: Can this slide be sent out to 14 us in the next day or two? 15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, the next day or two, not 16 th e -- 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: If I don't go to the 18 ho spital tonight, I will send it tomorrow morning. 19 MR. EISNER: What Ashley and I talked about 20 ea rlier is in the next few days, she can get this 21 pa rticular thing out. 22 MALE SPEAKER: Can I get a copy of that?

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 307 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We'll talk about it. 2 MR. EISNER: She can get -- 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We usually just distribute 4 it to the ASRAC members. 5 MR. EISNER: I thought we were talking, 6 As hley, about circulating the whole document. And we 7 ju st incorporated into it -- 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I'm just going to 9 ci rculate the slides. Is that okay? 10 MR. EISNER: But I think -- 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Other stuff -- 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just the slides. 13 MS. HOOTMAN: -- whenever you -- 14 MR. THARP: The last document? Send it out 15 to

-- 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the Word document has 17 st uff that I need to fix, and I am not going to do it 18 to night. 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't care if it's stuff 20 th at you have to fix. 21 MS. HOOTMAN: I will not hold you to any 22 li ttle editorials you --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 308 1 MR. EISNER: So let's be clear. There is 2 th is document. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the Word file. 4 MR. EISNER: There is the Word document that 5 we have already gone through completely and have 6 re ached agreement on. Then there's a third thing. 7 An d it's the stuff that Ashley put together from 8 ye sterday's and today's conversations that she will 9 ge t out to you very shortly so we can go back to this 10 at the next meeting. 11 And what are you talking about in terms of 12 ti meline for all three of those? 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll get out this slide and 14 th is voting document tomorrow, tomorrow morning. 15 MR. EISNER: And simply copies of what you 16 pu t up on the screen this morning, what we voted on, 17 we went through and answered all the questions, you 18 gu ys didn't want to take these issues on. When can 19 yo u get that document out? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think open is this; 21 ri ght? And since I have it and paste it from the 22 em ail you sent me, do you need it in a Word file?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 309 1 MALE SPEAKER: That would be great. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This came from you. 3 MR. EISNER: Copy that into the rest of the 4 do cument. 5 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. This is separate. This 6 is a separate issue. 7 Can you send me the furnace definition? 8 MR. AMRANE: That's what we will work on. 9 We will make it. 10 MR. WHITWELL: Furnace definition? I think 11 ev eryone knows what that is. 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And if you want me to put 13 th e five basic model definitions that we agreed to 14 te ntatively and one that we're working on still -- 15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then there are three 17 th at are out, potentially three that are outstanding. 18 Ok ay. Give me another day or so, next week probably, 19 ea rly next week. 20 MR. EISNER: Anything else we need to 21 di scuss today? 22 MR. AMRANE: Yes. We need to discuss the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 310 1 ne xt meetings because the announcement that was sent 2 ou t is saying that the first day is going to be a -- 3 MR. JOHNSON: There was a note what's his 4 na me just sent out a, Neil, -- 5 MR. AMRANE: Yes. 6 MR. JOHNSON: -- clarifying that. The 7 se cond day is -- 8 MR. AMRANE: I know, but the first day -- 9 MR. STANONIK: He sent a follow-up that we 10 ha ve both days available. I've been told that -- 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine. We can send 12 ou t another note, both days of the meeting. 13 MR. EISNER: All right. I think you guys 14 ar e done. 15 (Whereupon, at 2:41 p.m., the 16 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking 17 Federal Advisory Committee Meeting was 18 concluded.) 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 11 interest in this proceeding. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

# tJ~**--(~** NATALIA THOMAS Digital Court Reporter

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### 2013 311

### Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 9 10 11 12 13

### ~~ 14 Date 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22**l~** I**'Zo\~**

# ~J-0~ 

# __ SARAH VEACH Transcriptionist



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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 0 00 44:10 1 1 78:22 149:14 1,000 299:6 1,400 276:5 10 76:18 79:1 149:19 161:17 252:13 274:5 275:5 279:16 283:2,4 100 122:10 135:6 276:3 283:1 10-11 222:18 10-ton 24:11 25:3 11 76:18 161:18 222:16,19 11.0 74:12 11:00 162:14 11:19 165:15 11:45 164:13 115,000 25:2 12 38:19 69:20 222:16 274:19 12:00 162:16 165:13 12:26 165:15 12:30 162:16 120,000 24:11 25:2 13 208:10 14th 1:7 15 79:1 84:15 121:10 161:20 237:16 275:6 15-minute 105:5 170.25 288:22 289:4,12,19,21 18 26:18 19.1 194:19 19.92 194:17 2 2 78:22 107:22 140:3 245:2 2:00 271:5 2:41 310:15 20 26:19 77:13 84:16 85:20 161:21 165:13 237:16 274:19 275:8 277:20 278:2 279:16 282:2 200 135:20,22 276:6 20045 1:9 2007 182:10 2010 23:17 2011 182:1 2013 1:11 205 98:9 20-degree 185:1 230-volt 202:17 2420 191:20 25 254:4 257:5 287:8 3 3 107:22 121:9 202:17 245:12 246:17 247:17,19,22 248:2 302:20 30 1:11 90:16

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250:5,8 254:4 275:6 282:2,3 50 300:7 500 174:22 274:4,5 299:6 302:2,5 303:21,22 500,000 175:3 529 1:7 54,000 69:20 55-degree 149:13 56 149:13 5-horsepower 138:2 6 6 60:9 60 57:14 150:20 302:21 600 1:8 65 217:15 65,000 277:9 67 68:6 7 7 60:9 181:22 7:45 158:3 75 121:11 8 8 60:9 8:00 162:15 8:07 1:12 80 197:8 80.67 127:7,9 80/20 197:5

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Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013 Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8064 64:9 9 90 149:18 283:4 90.1 69:18 149:22 95 190:2 252:11,13 A a.m 1:12 158:8 165:15 A/C 35:16 148:16 AAON 2:14 52:3 116:22 AAONians 135:18 ability 76:4 107:17 148:20 267:22 able 68:4 101:4 138:15 161:22 173:3 176:9 212:19 261:18 270:21 276:16 280:2 287:18 288:20 294:16 absolutely 20:6 91:9 94:9 104:17 112:8,13 114:15,17 160:17 167:21 235:14 240:16 262:18 266:22 267:7 280:14,18 300:11 abstain 210:12 232:16,21 242:9 243:8,11,22 244:10 245:2 247:20 248:12,19 273:11 284:2,21 285:3 296:5 297:16 abstained 243:10

abstaining 242:11 243:21 247:21 abstention 210:22 248:3,20 abstentions 211:1,10,18 214:13,22 220:16 233:19 234:5 242:19 243:20 245:14 248:20 250:6 260:10,21 285:4 292:21 295:15 296:12 academic 94:15 accept 100:15 acceptable 38:12 74:2 75:18 accepted 34:20 46:19 accepting 32:15 49:10 accessible 155:4 accessories 102:3 accessory 163:18,21 accommodate 151:12 accommodations 247:3 accomplish 21:14 100:10 accomplished 99:3 accordance 14:11 17:10 212:10,16 267:9 271:13 according 287:2 accordingly 109:3

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### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013 Page 3

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 adding 93:20 95:10 97:15 127:3 133:19 137:13 146:13,14 147:14 163:17 212:14,17 addition 229:21 additional 12:2,13,15 15:10,18 53:13 94:3 110:19 121:3 126:13,16,21 127:1 131:21 154:3 156:7 262:9,13 263:2 267:1 294:11 298:18 additive 44:5 57:15 78:5 152:7 add-ons 4:3 address 62:9 86:2 101:6 109:6 111:11,17 116:18,19 134:8,9,10 247:13 294:22 addressed 163:14,17 164:2,10 201:9 214:3 addressing 124:16 143:19,20 adds 95:14 102:22 119:22 145:14 adequate 219:8 adjective 85:21 86:1 adjust 28:15 97:13 adjustment 140:19 adjustments 28:16 80:1,7 adopt 131:5 156:13 205:10 adopted 131:2 adoption 131:2 advanced 138:9 advantage 26:13 advertising 178:22 Advisory 1:4 310:17 advocate 14:17 74:11 88:16 AEDM 12:5,6,7 13:15,16 18:11,19 40:12,16 42:18 78:2 110:19 165:1 167:10 172:14,15 173:1,12 177:6 209:7 211:4,6 216:15,21 217:22 218:2,4 219:18,19 228:8 230:14,16 236:13 239:18,20 240:8 241:5 242:6 245:5 250:11 252:19 254:5,8 256:8 257:3,4 260:14 280:8,13,21 281:19 282:11,13 299:16,20 300:21 303:22 304:10,11 AEDMs 78:6 107:21 165:4 176:22 211:13 216:6,8 217:4,18 224:4 228:9,20,21 230:12 282:2,3 299:19 300:7,18 301:1,3,4,22 302:7 303:17 305:2 affect 9:5 206:10 303:19,20 affecting 304:21 affects 10:2 57:4 176:15 after-market 87:9 afternoon 165:9 against 26:12 119:6 133:9 age 276:4 agency 91:6 agenda 19:3 ago 85:22 123:17 agreed 6:11 108:14 163:2 220:22 221:7 226:18,19 229:20 252:22 254:14 309:13 agreed-to 22:11 agreeing 71:2 117:7 agreement 220:17 228:7,19 229:3 259:18 308:6 ahead 43:9,12 75:15 168:20,21 200:14 212:5 223:20 251:11 271:4

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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applications 16:10 30:16 31:3,7 52:19 71:16 73:1 78:21 106:1,7 113:6 120:6 129:9,13 137:21 138:6 144:6,18 196:5 197:3applicationspecific 88:18 applied 7:2 30:8 34:10 42:8 66:10 77:19 99:12,13 121:16 127:20 279:21 280:8 applies 18:4 97:10 152:15 213:5 apply 18:4,19 45:12 104:1 106:11 157:14 173:3,11 177:6 207:2,5 216:22 251:16 253:6 283:4 302:7 applying 49:2 81:2 Appreciate 136:18 approach 71:11 90:5 106:2 113:18,22 114:6 116:13,18 126:10 138:15 188:18 approaches 124:1 approaching 35:20 appropriate 67:20 99:4,14 109:6 110:8 221:8 241:6 247:1 271:14

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 171:4,8,20 172:12,21 173:5,9,15,19 174:1,4,8,11,18 175:4,18 176:12,19 177:12,18,20 178:16 179:3,5,15,19 180:1,4,7,12,17, 22 181:3,7 182:8,11,13,15,1 7 183:5,8,14,20 184:9,17 185:2,6,8,13,15, 19,21 186:3,8,11,15 187:2,8,13,20 189:11 190:5,14,21 191:6,10,13,19 192:5,10,17 193:2,8,14,18 194:4,20 195:1,11 196:7 197:6,9,15 198:10,18 199:2,4,6 200:8,12,14,19 201:7,12,17 202:1,7,9,21 203:13,17 204:9,11 205:2,6,13,15,21 206:12,18,21 207:7,10 208:1,7,13,18 209:3,6,15,21 211:7,21 212:3,5 213:6,13,15,19 214:4,8,11,16 215:10,12,14,17 216:10,19 217:5,11,17,20 218:1,8,13 219:3,9,13,22 220:2,7,9 221:5,11,15,22 222:4,6,12 223:4,11,22 224:5 226:11,15,22 231:7,14,16 232:2,13 233:2,5,10,13,17 234:3,11,14 235:2,5,9,14,16 236:9,15,18,20 237:13,19,22 238:4,9,12,22 239:3,10,16,20 241:3,7,11,16,20 242:20 243:10,12,18 244:3,5,11,15,18 ,22 245:7,15,21 246:2,4,12,14 247:2,22 248:6 249:2,4,12,15,18 250:16,19 251:2,6,17,21 252:4,14,18,22 253:2,10,12,15,2 2 254:3,6,10,14 255:8,11 256:12,16 257:1,7,11,17,22 258:3,10,13,16,2 0 259:3,7,10 260:1,3,8,16,19 261:3,6,9 263:8,12,18 264:4,6,10 265:6,18,20 266:1,7,10,22 267:3,7,14 268:16 269:7,10,13,18 270:4,21 271:2,5,10,15,18 272:4,14,17,21

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242:5 249:22 250:1,2,8 260:7 269:9 284:5,7 285:18 303:13 306:19 307:6 308:7 Ashley.Armstrong @ee.doe.gov 5:12,14 ASHRAE 151:8 235:8,9,11 241:16 ASHRAE's 151:6 aspect 231:9 ASRAC 165:5 221:13 222:3,5,14,21 223:17 224:9 226:17 234:7 248:2,15,22 260:12 261:1 273:13 275:12 294:8 295:3,13,17 296:8 297:18,20 307:4 assessed 11:9 assessment 271:8 303:17 assignment

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### Capital Reporting Company

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bases 207:13 basic 5:20 6:9 7:2,4,15,16 11:1,11,17,18 21:9 23:2,12 24:7 25:4 38:8,15 39:3,14 40:18 44:21 45:20 46:21 47:14,21 62:10 63:7 64:4 74:1 77:1 78:7 81:18 85:3,4,5,10 86:6 89:7,8 90:8 99:10,15,21,22 100:19 103:1 118:10,15 144:19,21 145:2 163:3,6,11 164:19 165:1,18 166:9,18 167:1,4,5,8 168:3,7 172:18,19,20 174:17 176:14 178:3 182:15 187:21 202:14,18 203:8,15 204:11 205:3,10 206:3,5 209:20 233:7,16 237:4,15 238:7 240:13,19 241:2 246:9 248:7 256:17 270:2 274:9,21 278:15 279:21 280:10 282:13,14 283:1 298:8,13 299:1 301:9,15 302:3 303:16,18,21 304:1 305:1,21 309:13

### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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capacities 26:6,8 71:12 277:9 capacitor 52:5,11 56:22 57:2,8 capacitors 51:3,8,18,20,22 52:4 capacity 21:17 23:18 24:3,4,9,13,14 25:14,16 26:2,7 145:10,11,12 167:16 199:10 277:7 Capital 1:19 caption 220:4 captured 10:6 70:19 80:19 148:3 car 60:12,13 61:2 67:7,8 120:12 care 87:20 136:13 204:3 307:19 careful 163:15 204:16 carefully 224:20 Carrier 3:17 69:1 carve-out 71:16 case 6:22 7:15,16 11:15 12:1 13:3 15:15 16:2,8 18:3,19,20 19:12,17,18,20,2 2 20:4,8 24:10,12,19 26:4 34:13 45:19 64:19 81:5,9 82:21 90:17 94:6 115:13,20 116:3 126:12 130:7

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### Capital Reporting Company

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characteristics 75:21 206:9 charge 232:10 charger 188:3 Charles 2:16 255:6 Charlie 12:19 78:11 166:6 179:12 185:14,15 chart 220:14,18 226:6 228:2 232:19,20 233:3 234:6,17 242:15 245:2,10,18 247:17 248:15 251:3 253:8 295:20,21 296:10 charts 215:4 cheating 93:4 check 28:15 50:15 51:13 57:4 278:22 287:14 checked 101:12 checking 67:14 chemicals 30:17,22 chloride 122:17 choice 26:12 135:4 290:16 choose 112:4 130:16 167:15 240:7 255:15,17 283:2 choosing 98:21 111:3 circuit 148:21

circuits 101:11 circulate 223:17 224:19 229:15 284:12 307:9 circulated 207:11 225:14 circulates 249:22 circulating 307:6 circulation 17:10 circulator 16:7 circumstances 103:13 188:14 claim 13:12,14 33:21 41:13 168:15 175:2,22 186:14 269:7 claiming 92:16 claims 168:16 clarification 13:2 56:20 220:3 223:7,14 225:16 230:7 251:13 266:20 285:1 300:20 302:17 clarifications 182:18 296:4 clarified 249:5 clarify 21:15 179:14 249:6,11 295:9 clarifying 189:1 310:6 clarity 174:5 224:3,7 229:9 class 79:17 109:21 110:1,2 116:8 118:4

### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 146:13,14,16,17 151:17 152:3 153:6 155:6,13,18 157:8,9,15,18 282:12 dropped 69:9 123:11 185:4 dry 121:5 122:22 dual 61:20 171:10 duct 129:10 131:8 152:17 154:20 ducted 129:7 ducting 129:5 132:4,7,8 ductions 142:16 ductwork

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 142:8,14 143:20 149:13 157:12 173:7 189:10 202:3 264:12 273:15,20 278:15 outstanding 209:9 246:20 309:17 overall 31:4 65:10 69:13 94:4 120:7 135:3 overcome 125:19 overnight 27:6 overseen 14:2 oversized 137:16 138:1 161:14,19 over-time 109:7 owner 122:1 152:19 P p.m 165:15 310:15 package 130:9 142:2 156:11 191:15 192:1 195:13 196:3,4,18 197:7 214:19 220:10 233:22 245:12,17 246:9 269:16 302:19 packaged 130:15,19 285:15 286:8 packaging 125:14 195:17,22 packets 192:12 page 212:15 261:14 272:12 273:9

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 percentage 84:11 119:5 301:10,12,13,14 percentage-wise 81:11 128:6 perfect 62:2 perform 20:2 42:11 performance 34:7,14 60:16 72:20 128:4 186:1 190:2 performances 196:16 performs 19:21 26:20 95:4 perhaps 34:14 108:9 110:7 141:7,8 275:4 perimeters 115:12 period 40:19 84:17 108:8 110:20 111:19 300:18 302:21 permanent 151:14,15 perpetrate 91:1 person 67:16 84:18 170:4 247:21 269:2 276:5,6 personal 64:7 301:7 personally 227:14 305:9,10 perspective 27:15 33:19 34:8 51:6 87:2,19,22 88:9 105:1 109:10 118:7 177:1 303:14,15 pertinent 87:15 Pete 246:6 Peter 3:4 212:3 petition 183:12 186:15 ph 31:3 161:7 194:3 phase 52:6,9 69:2 202:18 Phil 118:5,6 219:17 299:9 Phillip 3:15 8:18 169:15 187:11 207:18,19 phone 200:10 261:15 262:1 286:7 phrase 27:21 82:7 228:8 physical 44:21 101:12 193:4 206:9 291:1,10 physically 261:18 pick 40:6 48:19 49:10,11,12 173:6 277:13,14 300:12 picked 14:5 135:2 196:21 picks 195:21 picture 115:8 piece 96:15 265:13 268:9,10 300:17 pieces 209:8 pile 77:13 piled 38:7

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 123:17,20 124:20,21 165:6 208:19 209:13 247:3 263:6,7,10 264:8 266:6,8 268:20 269:12,20 270:9 296:15 299:21 processed 247:14 processing 268:16 procurement 295:11 produce 175:3 producing 301:15 product 3:4 35:7 37:12 62:18,21 63:1 67:7 69:9 72:21 79:17 81:20 85:11 88:15 92:17 95:22 96:7 98:3 100:18 105:17 106:16 109:21 110:1,2 111:22 114:14 116:7 118:4,12 122:8,11 125:9,10 129:6,13,20 130:1,14 149:12 160:7 163:14 164:3 170:16 172:16 175:8 176:10 179:16 183:21 186:6 189:14 194:17,18,19 200:22 201:2 211:13 213:5 227:10 228:9,22 229:1 240:7 241:6 264:11 277:6 278:20 292:13

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 196:1 209:8 227:5 237:5 256:1 264:5 265:16 266:13,16 267:18 274:20 276:9 281:2,10,14 283:11 288:13 298:10 301:20 302:5 realm 9:19 70:16 202:3 206:22 real-world 37:7 99:1 100:10 reason 41:15 53:8 69:6 131:4 133:5 155:3 170:12 203:1 288:13 298:16,17 reasonable 77:16 82:4 114:6 116:13,21 303:16 reasons 164:16 175:21 282:16 received 50:9 recertified 12:16 recessed 165:14 recognize 197:9 recognizing 109:13 116:19 recommendation 221:18 250:13 recommendations 285:15 Recommends 211:12 reconcile 46:4 198:11 201:6 203:10

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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