# In the Matter of:



# Jettech, LLC

September 20, 2016 Telephonic Pretrial Conference

Condensed Transcript with Word Index



## For The Record, Inc. (301) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555

### Telephonic Pretrial Conference Jettech, LLC 9/20/2016

(301) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 For The Record, Inc. 1 (Pages 1 to 4) 1

1 OFFICE OF HEARINGS
2 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 3
4 In the Matter of: )
5 JETTECH, LLC ) No. FAA-2013-1079
6 ------------------------------)
7 8 TELEPHONIC PRETRIAL CONFERENCE
9 10 Tuesday, September 20, 2016
11 1:00 p.m.
12 The Honorable Douglas M. Rawald
13 Administrative Law Judge
14 15 ON BEHALF OF THE FAA: 16 NO APPEARANCE
17 18 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT: 19 MICHAEL POINDEXTER, ESQ. 20
21
22 23
24 Reported telephonically by:
25 Karen Guy, CER

2

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 (1:09 p.m.)
3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Let’s go ahead and go on

4 the record.
5 This is Administrative Law Judge Doug Rawald.

6 This is a prehearing conference in the case of JETTECH,

7 docket number FAA-2013-1079. Today’s date is September

8 20th, 2016.

9 I’m joined on the call by the Counsel for the

10 Respondent, Mr. Michael Poindexter. Counsel for the

11 Complainant, Mr. Kyle Lamazow, has not called in. This

12 is the second time we’ve scheduled this conference. I’m

13 willing to hold it in his absence. He has been called by

14 our office and reminded of this call and he has not yet

15 called in. And so I find that he waives his ability to

16 take part in the discussion of prehearing matters at this

17 time.

18 Also with me in my office is Attorney-Advisor

19 Jackie Booker.

20 Mr. Poindexter, I do have from both you and Mr.

21 Lamazow a joint status report you both filed back in May,

22 with the hope that the case would be tried by now.

23 Obviously, it has not been. So I do want to set up some

24 dates and deadlines for things.

25 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 3

1 JUDGE RAWALD: Can you tell me first of all,

2 have you folks completed discovery in your opinion?

3 MR. POINDEXTER: You know, I think so, Judge.

4 The -- we gave ourselves another 60 days at the last --

5 after you were assigned the case and we submitted a new

6 status report and we gave ourselves an additional 60

7 days. Neither party filed any written discovery or

8 requests.
9 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay.

10 MR. POINDEXTER: So I think it’s done.

11 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, if nobody asked for

12 anything, after that I don’t see how there could be any

13 more discovery. Okay, so I’ll say discovery is complete

14 in this case.

15 And then as far as a litigation schedule goes,

16 how much time would you want for drafting and filing any

17 prehearing motions?

18 MR. POINDEXTER: How does that play into the

19 actual date of the hearing, Your Honor? Is there a

20 deadline by which it has to be filed prior to the

21 hearing?

22 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, what I typically do in my

23 cases, I set a deadline for the motions that’s separate

24 and apart from the hearing date. But we keep in mind the

25 hearing date, so they don’t all run together.

4

1 Just so you understand, my hearing calendar is

2 pretty packed. It looks like May is the first time I

3 would be hearing this case down the road here.

4 MR. POINDEXTER: In terms of any prehearing

5 motions, Your Honor, I think that I can get those in --

6 November and December are pretty booked for me, but

7 January opened up and February is fine. So maybe 90 days

8 or 100 days prior to May, maybe say mid-January, January

9 15th deadline for prehearing motions?

10 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Let’s do that. January

11 15th will be the timeframe for prehearing motions. And

12 then what I typically do is I give the other party 30

13 days upon the filing of that motion to respond. Well, it

14 won’t be 30 from the 15th, if you file a motion in

15 December, Mr. Lamazow will have to respond in January.

16 He’ll have to respond 30 days from your filing on the

17 motion and that will give me a chance to work on it,

18 rather than waiting for them to all come in at one time,

19 which would be then an avalanche for me.

20 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay.

21 JUDGE RAWALD: And what I’ll do, I’ll set aside

22 a date for a motions hearing by phone, and we want that

23 date in March or late February. So let me look at my

24 calendar here. I have a hearing that week. So does the

25 week of March 6th -- how does that look for you? March

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1 6th through -- 2 MR. POINDEXTER: The week of March 6th looks 3 fine for me, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE RAWALD:Okay. So how about we say 5 Monday, March 6th, so we have the rest of the week to 6 schedule anything else that comes up. We’ll set aside a 7 day we’ll have the motions hearing and argument, if 8 people want to have argument on a motion. 9 MR. POINDEXTER: Fine. 10 JUDGE RAWALD: And what I’ll do is I’ll 11 probably request a motion, argument, all that, and send 12 out an order setting the schedule, but you probably want 13 to reserve that date so you have it on your calendar, it 14 won’t interfere with something else. 15 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: And then, like I said, my next 17 available day to have a hearing would be May -- looks 18 like the 15th. How’s that week look for you? 19 MR. POINDEXTER: Where would it be, Your Honor? 20 JUDGE RAWALD: If the parties agree, you could 21 have it in Denver. 22 MR. POINDEXTER: Right. Okay. I just -- I 23 wanted to confirm that. 24 JUDGE RAWALD: Right. If you guys come to 25 Denver, that’s fine with me.

6

1 MR. POINDEXTER: You know, any day after Monday 2 the 15th that week would be okay. Tuesday, the 16th 3 through the 19th would be okay. But I’ve got a conflict 4 on Monday. 5 JUDGE RAWALD: And just so you know, my general 6 practice is to travel on Monday and then to have a 7 hearing on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. 8 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 9 JUDGE RAWALD: So that’s -- 10 MR. POINDEXTER: Good. 11 JUDGE RAWALD: So you can hold out that week 12 and have it available for the hearing then. 13 MR. POINDEXTER: Yeah. So shall we pencil in 14 Tuesday the 16th? 15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. That’s wonderful. How 16 many days do you think the hearing will take? 17 MR. POINDEXTER: Two, two at the outside. I 18 can’t speak for Mr. Lamazow’s presentation of his case, 19 but my case won’t take more than probably half a day. So 20 I would think two days for the hearing should be more 21 than enough. 22 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. So when I book the 23 hearing room at the Court, I’ll ask for three days, just 24 to err on the side of caution, because I always want to 25 be more careful and not have the case be compressed 7 1 artificially. 2 MR. POINDEXTER: Right. 3 JUDGE RAWALD: And so I’ll put in my prehearing 4 conference report that I’ll issue here to keep May 16th 5 through 18th open on your calendars for a possible 6 hearing in this case. 7 MR. POINDEXTER: Good. Do you know which 8 courtroom? Do you apply to the Central District here, 9 and which building do they usually assign you to? 10 JUDGE RAWALD: Right. So I haven’t been to 11 Denver before and I haven’t dealt with them before, but 12 we always do it at the Federal court and so we either use 13 the district court, the bankruptcy court or the tax 14 court, in one of the Federal courts that you have there. 15 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: And I will know -- so what I’ll 17 do when I get off the phone call now, is I give that 18 information to my assistant and then she’ll work over the 19 next few weeks or so getting everything lined up. And as 20 soon as she has it, we’ll release the hearing notice and 21 that will come to you with all the pertinent information. 22 So well in advance of the trial in May, obviously. But 23 hopefully within the next month you’ll have that hearing 24 notice. 25 MR. POINDEXTER: Yes, sir.

8

1 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay? 2 MR. POINDEXTER: That’ll be fine. 3 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. If you want to talk about 4 some substantive issues while I have you on the phone, so 5 I can have that -- make sureI get this in my calendar. 6 As we’re talking, I’m both working on the report and also 7 marking these in my Outlook calendar, make sure I have it 8 all documented. Okay. 9 So we talked about prehearing motions being due 10 January 15th and then within three days of service of 11 that motion make your response. And we have already set 12 that aside for March 6th. 13 I’d also like to set a date for when parties 14 will exchange a witness and exhibit list. Typically I 15 require 30 days before the hearing. Is that comfortable 16 for you to get a final witness and exhibit list 30 days 17 before the hearing? 18 MR. POINDEXTER: Yes, sir, it is. A final 19 witness and exhibit list exchanged 30 days prior, that’s 20 good. 21 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And then also I like if 22 the parties actually provide me a CD with all their 23 exhibits premarked 30 days prior, so I can review the 24 exhibits and be prepared, you know, to talk about them 25 when we go to the hearing. Is that comfortable for you

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(301) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 For The Record, Inc. 3 (Pages 9 to 12) 9 1 to provide me something like that? 2 MR. POINDEXTER: Yes. And I was thinking I was 3 going to -- I was thinking in the back of my mind, okay, 4 we exchange the list 30 days, when do we get the actual 5 exhibits. And my sense is they’re all going to be in 6 electronic format anyway, at least for pretrial purposes, 7 so we ought to be able to exchange an electronic version 8 of all the exhibits on that same 30 days. 9 JUDGE RAWALD: Perfect. Okay. And the other 10 thing I ask if you have a subpoena for a witness, that we 11 set a date by which you must provide that or else I’m 12 not going go ahead and do it. And so how many days do 13 you think you need for that? I usually ask for at least 14 30 days, so I can act upon it. But if you want more days 15 than that I’ll give it to you. 16 MR. POINDEXTER: You know as soon as I get the 17 hearing date, I will try toget my subpoenas out. And 18 they will be for principal inspectors here at the Denver 19 FSDO. So I should be able to get you those before the 20 end of the year. 21 JUDGE RAWALD: So I’ll say at least 60 days, 22 just to give ourselves some room here in case you decide 23 to change your mind. 24 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 25 JUDGE RAWALD: But at least 60 days before the

10 1 hearing you need to give me subpoena requests so I can 2 make sure I can issue notices to those folks to appear at 3 the hearing and they can make their plans. 4 MR. POINDEXTER: Got it. And I should request 5 subpoenas in writing, file a motion with the Clerk? 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Yes, sir. 7 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. And as far as the 8 parties for argument and post-hearing briefing, what I 9 prefer is that folks actually argue the case to me in 10 closing argument, allowing me to then discuss with you 11 your -- you know, your positions and what’s going on with 12 the case. 13 MR. POINDEXTER: Right. 14 JUDGE RAWALD: And then both sides, if they 15 want, can -- either side can request a brief, but I’m not 16 going to require that. 17 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: And so an issue that comes up in 19 the discussion and you say, you know what, Your Honor, I 20 don’t really know how I feel about that, I may have to go 21 back and look at my documents and my law, and come back 22 and brief that. I will allow that, but I’m not going to 23 request it at the outset. 24 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 25 JUDGE RAWALD: So just to put that in your ear. 11

1 I do want to turn to substantive issues. I noticed what 2 you noticed in the affirmative defense, which is the 3 Government says the maximum is $1,100 per violation, but 4 then it says they want $27,500. 5 MR. POINDEXTER: Yeah. 6 JUDGE RAWALD: Have you had any discussions 7 with Mr. Lamazow about that or is it simply a 8 typographical error? Has he said anything to you? 9 MR. POINDEXTER: No. I think what happened is 10 he ended up splitting the A through F, or six enumerated 11 violations, and I think he ended up splitting and saying, 12 well, there are four Counts under A and three Counts 13 under B, and so we added up 25 Counts out of the six that 14 he listed, which -- 15 JUDGE RAWALD: So you think there’s actually 16 more than the six violations that he found? 17 MR. POINDEXTER: Well, I think that’s what he’s 18 thinking but his complaint, you know, only says these are 19 the listed violations and so -- 20 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, I’m going to note in my 21 report that the complaint, on its face, is deficient in 22 that area. And so put him on notice that I have a 23 concern on how the complaint isdrafted there, in keeping 24 with what you read in your affirmative defense. 25 Also, I have an interpretation of the 14 CFR

12

1 43.5 that is not consistent with his, in that the way I 2 read that regulation toward revision is that it describes 3 a violation for failing to do any one of three things. 4 But if you don’t do two of those things or three of those 5 things, doesn’t mean it’s more of a violation. 6 MR. POINDEXTER: Right. That may be where he’s 7 coming from. 8 JUDGE RAWALD: Well, when he describes in his 9 paragraph in the initial penalty section, about how it’s 10 a failure because your company failed to do 43.5(b) and 11 43.5(c), I’m not inclined to find those to be different 12 violations. And so I need him to be showing me some law, 13 saying that those should be separate violations -- 14 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: -- as opposed to being all part 16 of the same thing. 17 MR. POINDEXTER: Yeah. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: So I will put a note on that as 19 well in my prehearing conference report that I think 20 that’s a problem in the pleading. 21 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 22 JUDGE RAWALD: So now you did not file an 23 amended answer, is that correct? 24 MR. POINDEXTER: I did not. 25 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so, in your original

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1 answer you denied the allegation in Paragraph 9 and then 2 he revised those in his amended complaint. 3 MR. POINDEXTER: You know, Your Honor, I’m not 4 sure I have his amended complaint. 5 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 6 MR. POINDEXTER: Hang on just a second. Let me 7 call it up. I do not have his amended complaint. I’ve 8 got the complaint requesting a hearing, I’ve got the 9 initial procedural order, I’ve got my answer, then I’ve 10 got the order reassigning to you dated 4-8-2016, and 11 that’s all I have. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: If you can -- are you on your 13 Outlook right now, are you going through your emails? 14 MR. POINDEXTER: Yes. 15 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. I have, by coincidence, a 16 cover email on the amended complaint that was sent on 17 March 12th, 2014. And it copies Poinlaw@aol.com, so if 18 you look at March 12th, 2014, it might be buried in your 19 email there. 20 MR. POINDEXTER: All right. Hang on just a 21 second. 22 JUDGE RAWALD: Sure. 23 MR. POINDEXTER: Was that March, did you say? 24 JUDGE RAWALD: March 12th, 2014. 25 MR. POINDEXTER: You know what, I have it, Your

14

1 Honor. 2 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. You do have it? 3 MR. POINDEXTER: I got it the same day I got 4 his discovery request. 5 JUDGE RAWALD: That’s fine. So you do have it, 6 which is helpful. And so in that complaint, he amends 7 just number 9. And so you had initially denied that and 8 I’m not sure if you are still denying it, based upon the 9 way that he’s changed the drafting of that. So you may 10 want to take a look at that. And if you are amending 11 yours, let me know. 12 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 13 JUDGE RAWALD: You don’t have to do it right 14 now. 15 MR. POINDEXTER: Yeah, I appreciate that. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 17 MR. POINDEXTER: Appreciate that. 18 JUDGE RAWALD: So if you feel that you are no 19 longer denying that provision based upon the amendment, 20 then you should file an amended answer, just changing 21 your original one. 22 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. Yes, sir, I will do 23 that. 24 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And I also have in your 25 answer the affirmative defense, one you raised, which is 15 1 the estoppel, and I’m trying to make sure I understand. 2 The estoppel concern is that they had the verbal approval 3 from the other folks? Is that what you’re saying there? 4 MR. POINDEXTER: Well, it’s more than that. It 5 is that there was a course of conduct here, it was like a 6 de facto SOP. They had gone through this process with 7 two other airplanes, six months to a year prior to this 8 airplane, gotten verbal field approval and then followed 9 it up with the paperwork. And then the POI was 10 reassigned and the new inspector apparently felt that 11 this was not good. 12 JUDGE RAWALD: And so, for something like a 13 year and-a-half you’ve put on evidence of these past 14 instances -- 15 MR. POINDEXTER: That’s right. 16 JUDGE RAWALD: -- and to show that it’s the 17 accepted way of doing business, and they turned a deaf 18 ear from that in this case, which is not okay. 19 MR. POINDEXTER: Yes. 20 JUDGE RAWALD: That’s very helpful, I 21 appreciate that, sir. 22 MR. POINDEXTER: That’s okay. 23 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And the last question I 24 had for you was regarding settlement. Have you and Mr. 25 Lamazow talked about settlement at all?

16

1 MR. POINDEXTER: We have. And he has -- you 2 know, for one reason or another, this case got stalled 3 for almost two years. And he needed time to get married 4 -- this was back in 2014, the Judge says, fine, we’ll 5 come back in 90 days and relook, and nobody ever came 6 back in 90 days and then it just sat. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. 8 MR. POINDEXTER: But at that time, there was 9 just token settlement. More recently, we’ve discussed 10 settlement and gotten closer to something that might be 11 palatable to my client. But not there yet. 12 So, yes, settlement is something that we’ve 13 always kept in mind. 14 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, hopefully when he 15 reads my concern with how he’s putting his case, maybe 16 that will help him in his discussion with you to get to a 17 more reasonable answer. 18 MR. POINDEXTER: Okay. 19 JUDGE RAWALD: But my intent then is to, of 20 course, in my report to note that I do encourage the 21 parties to keep talking about settlement. I do think 22 it’s always better for folks to come to an amicable 23 agreement, rather than me telling you what to do. 24 But I will, of course, have the hearing in case 25 a resolution is not reached and we’ll move forward.

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1 I am trying to keep moving, it’s just the way 2 things have worked out here. But we are getting back on 3 track. So I feel pretty good about where things are. 4 MR. POINDEXTER: Well, the interesting thing is 5 the agency, the administration has come out with its new 6 policy directive, you know. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: Right. 8 MR. POINDEXTER: Which -- but Mr. Lamazow is 9 convinced that doesn’t apply to this case, because this 10 is an older case. And so -- 11 JUDGE RAWALD: I mean, if you come back -- if 12 you come back to the hearing room with evidence of the 13 current administrative policy, which is kinder and 14 gentler seemingly, then I certainly will consider it. 15 MR. POINDEXTER: And, you know, that’s -- the 16 bottom line is this case is about a paperwork glitch, at 17 least in the FAA’s mind, the inspector’s mind. There was 18 never an allegation that the plan was unsafe or 19 unairworthy, it was strictly paperwork. 20 JUDGE RAWALD: Yeah, I noted that they didn’t 21 charge him with working in violation, which I typically 22 see as a residual violation in these cases, but they 23 didn’t charge it here. 24 MR. POINDEXTER: Yeah. And then, of course, 25 now it’s been four years and he’s got four more years of

18

1 interaction with the local FSDO, so those are the guys 2 I’m going to subpoena, saying how he’s doing, you know. 3 And they like him. 4 So, at any rate, that’s where we are. And I 5 will -- I’ll discuss those things with Mr. Lamazow and 6 see where we go from there. 7 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. Well, I appreciate your 8 appearance today. I’m glad we got things off to a better 9 start with you and I, because I was at the point with the 10 initial filing when it came through the night before the 11 hearing that you wanted to change the prehearing 12 conference, that you wanted a change. But I do 13 appreciate your coming for the discussion today. This 14 has been very helpful. 15 MR. POINDEXTER: No trouble. No, I’m pleased 16 to do it, Your Honor. Thank you so much. 17 JUDGE RAWALD: Okay. And so I will issue a 18 prehearing conference report tomorrow that will summarize 19 our discussion. And for now, we’ll go ahead and go off 20 the record. Thank you very much. 21 MR. POINDEXTER: All right. Thank you.22 JUDGE RAWALD: All right. Take care. ‘Bye23 bye. 24 (Whereupon, at 1:27 p.m., the hearing was 25 concluded.) 19

1 2 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 3 4 I, Karen Guy, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 proceedings were recorded by me via digital recording and 6 reduced to typewriting under my supervision; that I am 7 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of 8 the parties to the action in which these proceedings were 9 transcribed; and further, that I am not a relative or 10 employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the 11 parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested 12 in the outcome of the action. 13 14 15 16 17

_________________________________ 18 KAREN GUY 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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### Telephonic Pretrial Conference Jettech, LLC 9/20/2016

(301) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 For The Record, Inc. [22]

okay 2:3,25 3:9,11

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### Telephonic Pretrial Conference Jettech, LLC 9/20/2016

(301) 870-8025 - www.ftrinc.net - (800) 921-5555 For The Record, Inc. [23]

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