Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

1

 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy

 529 14th Street, N.W.

 Suite 600

 Washington, D.C. 20045

 Thursday, May 30, 2013

 8:07 a.m.

Reported by: Natasha Thomas,

 Capital Reporting Company
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 FACILITATOR

3 Neil Eisner, Navigant Consulting

4 PARTICIPANTS

5 Karim Amrane, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

6 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

7 Ashley Armstrong, U.S. Department of Energy

8 Timothy Ballo, Earthjustice

9 Laura Barhydt, U.S. Department of Energy

10 Jeff Bauman, National Refrigeration & Air-Conditioning

11 John Cymbalsky, U.S. Department of Energy

12 Mary Dane, Traulsen

13 Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi Electric US, Inc.

14 Mark Fly, AAON Heating & Cooling Products

15 Geoffrey Halley, SJI Consultants Inc.

16 Charles Hon, True Manufacturing

17 Jill Hootman, Trane

18 John Hurst, Hex Technologies, Inc.

19 Tom Johnson, Daikin McQuay

20 Jeff Kleiss, Lochinvar

21 Michael Kojak, Underwriters Laboratories LLC

22 John Mandyck, UTC Climate, Controls & Security
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd)

2 PARTICIPANTS (Continued)

3 Karen Meyers, Rheem Manufacturing Co.

4 Peter Molvie, Cleaver-Brooks Product Development

5 Frank Myers, PVI Industries, Inc.

6 Massoud Neshan, Southern Store Fixtures, Inc.

7 Michael Rivest, U.S. Department of Energy

8 Harvey Sachs, American Council for an Energy-Efficient

9 Economy

10 Ronald Shebik, Hussmann Corporation

11 Frank Stanonik, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and

12 Refrigeration Institute (AHRI)

13 Louis Starr, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance

14 (NEEA)

15 Phillip Stephens, Heat Transfer Products

16 Rusty Tharp, Goodman Manufacturing

17 Robert Whitwell, Carrier Corporation

18

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

4

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. EISNER: Ready to discuss your lists of

3 add-ons? Who wants to start?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need Rusty. We need

5 Rusty.

6 MR. EISNER: All right.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: At least for HVAC, we do.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we --

9 MR. JOHNSON: Let's do the December first.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He did not send it to me.

11 MR. JOHNSON: I thought he did.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: He sent the definition but

13 not the list, not anything from last night.

14 MR. JOHNSON: This morning?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have anything.

16 MR. JOHNSON: All right. I thought he did.

17 MR. DOPPEL: I think the last one I saw, the

18 last file, was one you --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't have anything from

20 him this morning.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Yes.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Do we want to resend the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

5

1 definition or do we want to put this spreadsheet up

2 there?

3 MALE SPEAKER: I think there's too much

4 detail there.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Okay.

6 MALE SPEAKER: I don't think the

7 spreadsheet, no. I think you want to go --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Let me just forward this.

9 MALE SPEAKER: At least summarize it and

10 then --

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Let's see. Ashley.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley.Armstrong@ee.doe.gov.

13 MR. WHITWELL: .ee?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley.Armstrong@ee.doe.gov.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I just forwarded that,

16 Ashley. You should be good now.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. While we are waiting

18 for this to come on, we can start with water heating

19 and boilers because the email I got last night was

20 just asking for DOE's definition of basic model

21 without modification. Yes? Happiness? Happy to use

22 that.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

6

1 MR. KLEISS: Were you copied on the email

2 from Frank Stanonik?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

4 MR. KLEISS: You're saying that that didn't

5 --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm sorry?

7 MR. KLEISS: Okay. The definitions there

8 for commercial boiler and commercial water heater?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So it's DOE's basic

10 model definition.

11 MR. KLEISS: Right, which we agreed with.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So no discussion

13 needed?

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers, PVI. I

15 wanted to make sure that I understand what DOE expects

16 to glean with this information. And when you were

17 talking yesterday about the refrigeration side, you

18 were saying you had done a lot of research in the AHRI

19 directory and that all of the models have the same

20 efficiency.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

22 MR. MYERS: That is not the case in water
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

7

1 heaters and boilers. Some have it, but there are some

2 where within a basic model group as applied by AHRI,

3 you could have a range of ten models and the

4 efficiency in that basic model group goes from a low

5 efficiency to a high efficiency.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is the same as

7 everyone else. And for HVAC and for refrigeration, it

8 is just that when they get down to the level of

9 listing them in the directory themselves, not for the

10 purposes of grouping but when you actually list them,

11 they have a single efficiency value for the list.

12 MR. MYERS: Okay. Great.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So what we are doing here is

14 defining how you list things. So you would have a

15 singular rating associated with in your case a basic

16 model, in their case a basic model, but the definition

17 we are still working on.

18 MR. MYERS: Are you saying, then, that you

19 agree with the definition that Frank sent you last

20 night?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is our definition, yes.

22 MR. MYERS: It is close, but it is not
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

8

1 exact.

2 MR. WHITWELL: It is just tailored.

3 MR. MYERS: I would have to --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Minus the words like that,

5 it is pretty much identical.

6 MR. STANONIK: This is Frank Stanonik. I

7 just tailored it because in the specific of boilers,

8 you are measuring efficiency. So, rather than put

9 efficiency, energy consumption, blah blah blah --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, yes.

11 MR. STANONIK: -- I just tailored it.

12 That's all.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. That is what I was

14 saying. It is identical. I mean, you still have the

15 essentially identical language.

16 MR. STANONIK: Right.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Okay.

18 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. We

19 did come up with a list of common features between our

20 different categories that may have an effect on

21 efficiency, things like sometimes pumps are added to

22 water heaters.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

9

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Sometimes they are not.

3 There are high altitude models, which may have to be

4 derated based on the elevation. So that is going to

5 affect the efficiency somewhat.

6 Let's see. Some of the other things were

7 emissions, different venting options we would have,

8 freeze protection for outdoor units. If you looked at

9 the system's efficiency, those electric resistance

10 heaters may have a minor impact. And then some

11 boilers have economizers similar to what we are

12 talking about with the HVAC license. So we have a

13 list of those also that we may want to include as

14 optional, but be, I guess -- how would you call that?

15 How were you referring to that yesterday? Find it

16 outside of the --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, I think there is

18 a fine line between options that would be out of the

19 realm of not showing up in the test procedure and then

20 options that are integrated into units that increase

21 the efficiency that show up in the test procedure that

22 should be reflected in the rating. So we are not
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

10

1 getting to this infinite list of everything that

2 affects efficiency we are kicking out, but for

3 products that are highly customized, where there is,

4 you know, an infinite amount of options, is there a

5 middle ground where, you know, the primary efficiency

6 drivers can be captured by the metric in the test

7 procedure and we're not testing every single different

8 option and combination and listing, you know, a

9 trillion models or that kind of thing?

10 I mean, you guys seem to -- I know there are

11 people certifying today for you guys with industry.

12 So I am not saying that the existing scheme works

13 completely, but it fits your industry better than it

14 may fit others. Okay.

15 MR. DOPPEL: It's operating in high

16 efficiency mode.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So is this air conditioner.

18 MR. SACHS: Is the source computer running

19 on battery and trying to conserve itself?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

21 Does the CRE team have something for me?

22 MR. SHEBIK: I mean, we are fine as far as
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

11

1 the breakdown and basic model and certified individual

2 models. I think we are okay at that point.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Now, when we get to testing

5 burden and stuff like that, we will probably need to

6 hash some more stuff.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: In terms of what models can

8 be selected for verification purposes or what you have

9 assessed?

10 MR. SHEBIK: If we move our stuff and defer

11 to, as I said, a higher tier in the basic model here,

12 which you're going to have more models under one

13 energy efficiency number, as opposed to further

14 defining it to the unique model, unique cooler energy

15 maybe; for example, if you have an open case, it could

16 be either T-8 fluorescent or LED lighting, my

17 understanding is under basic models, you put all of

18 those into one basic model and you would rate it a

19 higher efficiency or a higher energy consumption

20 level.

21 Now, if we want to further distribute

22 commerce, the different, the various levels of
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

12

1 efficiency on this case are based on types of fan

2 motors and types of lighting. How much additional

3 testing would be required?

4 MS. BARHYDT: Are you planning on using an

5 AEDM?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can you just use the AEDM?

7 MR. SHEBIK: Well, we are using AEDM, but is

8 that going to alter our tests?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Then you have no change.

10 MR. SHEBIK: That was my question.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No change in testing.

12 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Those additional models that

14 you disaggregated could be subject to verification

15 testing but no additional testing for your part.

16 MR. SHEBIK: What I recertified to is with

17 the verification testing for the Department.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Good.

19 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Charlie, you?

20 MR. HON: That's fine.

21 MR. SHEBIK: Mary, do you have concerns?

22 Okay.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

13

1 MR. HON: That's my understanding.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Just for clarification, in

3 case for future reference, how do we go back and

4 verify that we won't have to do efficiency testing for

5 how to do models or have efficiency testing for Low

6 NOx models for certain markets?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you mean by --

8 MR. STANONIK: I don't know about your

9 particulars, but most manufacturers, their Low NOx

10 models are a different model number.

11 MR. STEPHENS: That's --

12 MR. STANONIK: Well, if you want to claim

13 the same locations, I guess you can. And if you want

14 to claim something different -- well, that is what a

15 workable AEDM does for you.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. That is the AEDM.

17 MR. STANONIK: It simplifies this discussion.

18 MR. STEPHENS: What about water heater

19 models with pumps included?

20 MR. STANONIK: The pump has never mattered

21 in a test procedure.

22 MR. STEPHENS: We are talking about
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

14

1 something in the federal regulations that would be

2 overseen in the --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: If it is not just having a

4 test procedure; so, for example, if a pump is not

5 picked up in a test procedure, we're not just going to

6 pull and then test with the pump and say, "You don't

7 meet our standard." You know, we are going to follow

8 our test procedure.

9 MR. STANONIK: So I don't remember where it

10 was yesterday, but I think Ashley or, actually, Laura

11 said something about in accordance with the test

12 procedure.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

14 MR. STANONIK: So everything has to be in

15 the context of what the test procedure measures.

16 MR. STEPHENS: Right.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You could advocate reopening

18 the test procedures that measure that. Then your

19 rating would have to be reflected on the pump energy,

20 as would any verification test we do. But if it's not

21 reflected in the test procedure, we're not going to.

22 I mean, we are using the test procedure just like you.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

15

1 MR. STEPHENS: We are leaving it open-ended

2 so that if the test procedure changes, then that

3 becomes --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, if the test

5 procedure changes such that things like these types of

6 things change, you guys should bring it up during the

7 rule, not after the rule, not right before you should

8 certify. Bring it up during the rule so we can

9 consider those changes and benefits of including the

10 measures of additional consumption as well as the

11 increased burden or the changes that that would have

12 in a practical world of things.

13 MR. RIVEST: You know, I can envision water

14 heaters that would require that the pump work for the

15 water to be channeled. In that case, --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would probably --

17 MR. RIVEST: -- you know, that imaging gets

18 counted. Yesterday, we were talking about additional

19 features on HVAC equipment where they are not part of

20 the test procedure measurements.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, some of those --

22 MR. RIVEST: But they are impacting the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

16

1 measurements. So that's why we are having a

2 conversation about those, but in your case, it sounds

3 like it's not measured and it's not impacting your

4 measurement.

5 MR. STEPHENS: Well, that's just it. There

6 have been some products in the market that have had

7 small circulator pumps to reach construction

8 standards. Right? So in that case, it was required,

9 and it was included in the efficiency measurements.

10 There are other applications where the pump is added

11 on as a feature because the guy in the field is going

12 to need it and he will do the installation anyway. So

13 it is just shipped with the unit or it is shipped

14 installed in the unit.

15 So how do you specifically differentiate

16 between them? Because, as I am sure he is thinking

17 right now, everything is going towards whole facility

18 efficiency, not just individual appliance efficiency.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right, exactly.

20 MR. RIVEST: I think this is pretty clear21 cut. I mean --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

17

1 MR. RIVEST: -- the operations manual will

2 show you what to do, how to test.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

4 MR. STEPHENS: Thank you.

5 MR. STARR: Slow start. I was worried, that

6 not being part of the startup instructions that go

7 with like how you say that, test procedure. It's

8 things that --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It can be as long as this is

10 in circulation not in accordance with the test

11 procedure.

12 MR. STARR: Right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So if the test

14 procedure is exclusive and the test procedure -- I

15 mean, you could definitely say as part of the words

16 "Do not include the pump." If the test procedure

17 specifically says, "Include pump," we're going to

18 include pump.

19 MR. STEPHENS: Okay.

20 MR. SHEBIK: Ashley?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes?

22 MR. SHEBIK: Can I ask a CRE question? And
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

18

1 hopefully it will be an easy one and it won't

2 interrupt the flow that you guys are doing here? In

3 the case of a one-off or a one-of-a-kind model, I

4 mean, it may not apply to them as much as it applies

5 to us. We may have equipped the stores of all of our

6 products, which are remote cases, but we based on the

7 configuration of the store may have to take one of

8 those cases and make it a self-contained model. It

9 would be a unique one-of-a- kind, one-time, one-off.

10 We have only had one of those models built, self11 contained. The AEDM may not relate to that model.

12 Could we just do the one test? And would that

13 satisfy?

14 I mean, we run NSF runs, and we run DOE

15 tests on it. So we would actually have two different

16 tests at two different temperatures because NSF will

17 probably run a little bit colder than a DOE test. But

18 would those two tests be sufficient to certify that

19 one case, rather than us try to force a AEDM to apply

20 to it or have to build another case, which would not

21 be practical? So you would have your two cases to

22 test.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

19

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the answer is not the way

2 the regs are written right now, but that is on the

3 agenda to deal with.

4 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

6 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. Thanks.

7 MR. SACHS: The sample is the universe. You

8 know, that is what you are saying.

9 MR. SHEBIK: That is a possibility.

10 MR. SACHS: Your testing sample is the

11 entire universe.

12 MR. SHEBIK: We only built that one case and

13 may never ever build it again in a self-contained

14 version. It is just for the uniqueness of the store.

15 MR. SACHS: Yes.

16 MR. SHEBIK: We are going to actually test

17 that one case we are shipping out. We are not going

18 to build a case to test.

19 MR. SACHS: Yes.

20 MR. SHEBIK: So we will know if that case

21 performs or not.

22 MR. SACHS: Yes. So in that case --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

20

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: What do you do if it doesn't

2 perform? I am just wondering.

3 MR. SACHS: You can't shoot the --

4 MR. SHEBIK: Fix it. In that case, we would

5 go over to NSF and DOE. The cold temperature is --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sure, absolutely.

7 MR. SACHS: It is so nice when things

8 collapse to a case I can analyze.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Just throw it out --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We going to let you start

11 off on this list.

12 Just on this, what do you mean the

13 difference between coated coils is like the soft

14 coating versus --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Corrosion coating.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Corrosion coating is E,

17 copper and evap coil?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Copper and evap coils.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is the corrosion?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Well, there are different

22 options.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

21

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Different options may be used

2 in a --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Here's the going-in

4 position.

5 MR. EISNER: Can we pay attention to what is

6 up on the screen now? Could we have everybody's

7 attention? We've got something up on the screen.

8 Let's start talking about it. Who has got any

9 comments on the introductory paragraph, basic model?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think I spelled something

11 wrong. I am going to fix that.

12 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Any comments?

13 Does somebody want to describe what you are trying to

14 accomplish with the first paragraph?

15 MR. THARP: Just to clarify, I think we want

16 to add the word "net" before "nominal" in "cooling

17 capacity."

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are you going to define

19 that?

20 MR. THARP: Well, "net" includes indoor fan

21 power. And that would be --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Gross doesn't.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

22

1 MR. THARP: And gross does not.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. THARP: And that's really more the

4 system portion of the commercial.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

6 MR. EISNER: We need to define that in

7 parentheses. Is there any --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You won't need to define it

9 in our regs.

10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to add a

11 parenthetical here as to what the agreed-to definition

12 is?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: That's common in entry.

14 MR. EISNER: I'm sorry? I can't hear you.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: I'll just pull it out.

16 MR. EISNER: Oh. It is already defined?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: It's also in 348-360 as well.

18 It's in both.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I will pull it out of the

20 test procedure. We have incorporated the test

21 procedures. So, by default, it is kind of already in

22 our regs, but we'll be explicit and pull it out.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

23

1 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else on the

2 introductory paragraph, basic model needs? Questions?

3 Comments?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

5 MR. RIVEST: Could someone walk us through,

6 maybe?

7 MR. WHITWELL: Through the introductory

8 paragraph?

9 MR. EISNER: The list.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: The list.

11 MR. EISNER: I want to make sure nobody has

12 any comments on the basic model definition.

13 MR. STARR: I wouldn't mind someone kind of

14 walking through the first paragraph just a little bit,

15 you know, some of the terms. Like when I hear

16 "nominal," that usually means the number that you see

17 in the catalog. Like 2010 unit doesn't actually refer

18 to capacity. So just some things like that would be

19 helpful for me to understand what some of those

20 general definitions -- it doesn't have to be extremely

21 detailed. Just a little bit would be handy.

22 MR. WHITWELL: I think, well, for example,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

24

1 if you have an option that requires a higher, larger

2 fan motor, indoor fan motor, it changes the cooling

3 capacity because the cooling capacity, the net cooling

4 capacity, includes this. We have this subtraction

5 because of the fan power. Right? So, other than

6 that, it is the same refrigeration system. So it

7 should not be a different basic model. So that is

8 what that is referring to. Other options could

9 somehow impact the efficiency or the capacity as well.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Nominal in this case is not

11 saying that this is a 120,000 10-ton unit. Nominal in

12 this case is a set formula of your actual measured

13 capacity minus your fan power, your net nominal

14 capacity to set formula. So, I mean, it is actual for

15 the unit at the test procedure points.

16 MR. STARR: And these terms are defined in

17 the 340? Okay.

18 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. In this case, the 340-

20 360.

21 MR. THARP: I guess that actually probably

22 wouldn't be with the use of the word "nominal" if we
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

25

1 would open if we had a ten-ton unit. If somebody had

2 a unit rated 120,000, another rated 115,000, that's

3 sort of a 10-ton nominally. So those could be one

4 basic model.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: If all those other things --

6 MR. THARP: If all the other things are the

7 same.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, all the other things.

9 MR. THARP: It's unlikely --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

11 MR. THARP: -- that with that difference,

12 that everything else would be the same or comparable.

13 MR. STARR: Well, for instance, in a unit,

14 you could have a standard high capacity or whatever.

15 And it would all be a nominal 40-ton unit. And then

16 you would have a different coil capacity. That's

17 fine. And it's --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: But you likely would not meet

19 these other things. You wouldn't have the same

20 comparable compressors and the same comparable coils

21 and the same comparable fan system --

22 MR. STARR: Right.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

26

1 MS. HOOTMAN: -- if you were having those

2 different capacity points.

3 MR. STARR: Right.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: In any case, I guess you could

5 go down to the lowest common denominator and not

6 report your other capacities.

7 MR. WHITWELL: Your higher capacity.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Your highest capacities. Go

9 down to the lowest common denominator of a model.

10 MR. STARR: Why did we make --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You would have that

12 choice. You would have to weigh that against other

13 things, not taking the marketing advantage for the

14 other.

15 MR. THARP: And, as an example, you know, in

16 the condensing coil, same or comparable, some will

17 look at it that two different fin patterns or fin

18 styles. So one would be 18 fins per inch. The other

19 would be 20 fins per inch or you might have a micro

20 channel where the net system performs the same so we

21 could provide a unit with any of those three coils and

22 get the same net efficiency as the test conditions.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

27

1 So that's the same or comparable conditions, pretty

2 much the same thing with evaporated coil.

3 MR. EISNER: Other terms people would like

4 to discuss?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I guess I would say that, you

6 know, that this was our work overnight and into this

7 morning. I don't know that this is exhaustive right

8 now as far as the list.

9 MR. EISNER: The list? Are you talking

10 about the list?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: You have got to reach out if

13 you want to say --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think from DOE's

15 perspective at least, we would like to walk through

16 each option and why they should be, why you think they

17 should be, considered and for exclusion from, you

18 know, this list or for inclusion in the list,

19 exclusion from the --

20 MR. EISNER: But let's be clear. On the

21 last phrase in the introductory paragraph, in terms of

22 what Jill said, you want to say, "such as" so that you
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

28

1 can -

2 -

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

4 MS. MEYERS: I don't think we are ready to

5 lock it down yet. I think that's --

6 MS. MEYERS: That's the point.

7 MR. THARP: Let's try to finalize the list.

8 MR. EISNER: So you want to try and finalize

9 the list and get everything on here?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't think we can do it

11 today.

12 MR. THARP: Can I suggest that we walk

13 through what we have and we'll come back at the

14 beginning of the next meeting to give us two weeks to

15 go back and double check, and adjust, make minor

16 adjustments, at that point in time?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think DOE is going to

18 agree because I am not sure we are going to --

19 MR. THARP: Yes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- get wholesale on this

21 list either.

22 MR. THARP: Right.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

29

1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I mean, our thought was

2 that this would be a good discussion point. You know,

3 it is pretty complete but not exhaustive; right?

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Well, why don't we start

5 with --

6 MR. RIVEST: I also think that by discussing

7 each option and how the group feels about it, we can

8 develop general rules --

9 MR. AMRANE: Sure.

10 MR. RIVEST: -- that can then be used to

11 handle future options.

12 MR. AMRANE: Exactly.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

14 MR. AMRANE: Very good, very good.

15 MR. EISNER: All right. Do you want to

16 start with the first on the list, the decreased test

17 energy?

18 MR. THARP: Can I just make real quickly one

19 comment? This is air-to-air. And we haven't put

20 together something for water source yet. For water

21 source, this would be our suggestion for air-to-air

22 commercial HVAC. So the first one, comparable
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

30

1 evaporative coil, some manufacturers have an aluminum

2 coil standard. You can get it with copper or copper

3 with a special coating on it.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

5 MR. THARP: Technically, you might -- the

6 reality is I think you probably won't see much

7 different in task, but you might in theory have a

8 slight decrease in applied energy.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. The heat transfer.

10 MR. THARP: Heat transfer is a little bit

11 better with copper, but depending on how you do it,

12 you may change your fin density on a coil that I will

13 set at -- in both cases, they are decreasing energy

14 consumption. So I don't think that would be an issue.

15 MS. BARHYDT: And the customer wants it

16 mostly in industrial applications or caustic

17 environments. They're using chemicals, et cetera.

18 Just similar minerals of aluminum to copper corrode

19 faster and copper to copper will not. It depends on

20 the caustic environment.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So similar --

22 MS. BARHYDT: It depends on what chemicals
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

31

1 they have.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So similar to the coil

3 coatings for corrosion for CCOS (ph) applications.

4 This is certainly going to be a benefit to the overall

5 energy consumption of the building over time, right,

6 because if you don't have the copper in some

7 applications or you don't have the coatings, you are

8 going to lose the fins.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So can I ask a

10 question? You raised typically a rate, the aluminum

11 one now is for --

12 MR. THARP: Right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the only thing changing

14 to the copper one would make your rating better?

15 MS. MEYERS: Long term.

16 MR. THARP: Even if you can synch fin, I

17 would say it would be better than copper.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, say if you do no

19 modifications other than aluminum to copper, knowing

20 that the copper heat exchanger properties are a little

21 better.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Which should be better;
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

32

1 correct.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So but I would have thought

3 your ratings should be at or better. Is that correct?

4 MR. WHITWELL: Correct.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but I mean, we can't sit

6 here and -- we are doing theories. We don't have a

7 number for them.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have numbers and

9 tolerance.

10 MR. THARP: Well within five percent.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, to me, that one

13 --

14 MR. THARP: So that one should be a no15 brainer as accepting.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it doesn't even need

17 to be on the list; right?

18 MR. THARP: Right.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you are not going to

20 rate them separately. If we pull them to test, it

21 will be at or better, --

22 MR. CYMBALSKY: You don't need it.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

33

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- especially within the

2 five percent.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: So it could possibly decrease

4 test energy in the sense that there is more pressure

5 differential across them because they are thicker, you

6 know.

7 MR. THARP: Because of fin thicknesses?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, yes. So your, you know,

9 condenser fan is drawing more?

10 MR. DOPPEL: Less space between things.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: So consensus is you prefer to

13 leave it on the list?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't tell you because I

15 have never tested it.

16 MR. EISNER: Well, but does that mean you

17 want to leave it on the list?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, that's one I think

19 from DOE's perspective that, you know, if it is

20 something that you don't test and rate separately, you

21 are not going to claim separately, if I would have

22 thought the changes that you are making wouldn't
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

34

1 decrease the test energy or at least significantly

2 change the rating, you have the five percent --

3 MR. WHITWELL: Actually, I think one of the

4 issues is that different manufacturers do different

5 things; right, because, for example, copper is

6 expensive. And so what we typically do is we would

7 take out the fins to get an equivalent performance.

8 So from my perspective, it would not have any impact

9 on the test procedure for our products. It would

10 decrease the applied energy over the long term because

11 the coils are going to maintain their integrity. But

12 it sounds like some other manufacturers might just

13 keep everything the same. And so in that case, it

14 would be higher performance perhaps. But I don't know

15 what everybody is doing.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: And, you know, it depends on

17 what the customer has asked for. I agree with you.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: We have done both. They have

20 done both where they have accepted it.

21 MR. RIVEST: The consequence of putting it

22 like this, as an exclusion, means that every system
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

35

1 with copper coils will not be tested. Now, I

2 understand today copper is more expensive than

3 aluminum. And by the time you have designed your

4 system, I imagine it is always going to be more

5 expensive. So there is no risk here of a loophole

6 that someone is going to manufacture all of their

7 product with copper?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: No. It's also three or four

9 times heavier.

10 MR. RIVEST: Right. That is what I am

11 thinking.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, we have to have --

13 MR. BALLO: This is Tim. It is not just

14 that loophole, though. It is also the loophole of,

15 well, maybe you don't have to make other components in

16 that exempt A/C unit. This is true because you are

17 now exempt from the standard. So, more than anything,

18 it impacts the --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but I guess we are not

20 approaching it that way. We are approaching it where

21 the customer has a definite need and is requiring

22 this. Now, they might have some of these other things
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

36

1 on there because of the actual building application

2 but they are not looking just to make it all come

3 under the radar, shall I say.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, it's not their goal.

6 MR. WHITWELL: And I think our thought was

7 that, let's say, if DOE wanted to test a unit, they

8 could test a unit that would be identical to one with

9 copper coils or without copper coils, assuming, you

10 know, that it doesn't have other things that end up on

11 this list. And, you know, so they would just test

12 that unit with all those other features and functions

13 with aluminum coil because it is an option that a

14 customer can order with the copper or without

15 aluminum.

16 MR. BALLO: I guess my problem is what I am

17 hearing is that this is something some customers need

18 for their particular application and think it may have

19 a detrimental impact on energy use as measured in the

20 test procedure, although maybe not. But beyond that,

21 though, it still seems imminently possible to me for

22 you to make a unit with copper evaporative coils given
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

37

1 that it has a fairly small impact on to meet the

2 standard. So I guess that is where I am coming at

3 this from.

4 If there are things that are going to make

5 it very difficult for you to meet the standard, I am

6 fine potentially with them being on the list,

7 depending on the actual real-world impact of it. But

8 for something that has a marginal impact where it

9 seems like depending on how you implement it, you can

10 still meet the standard, that is where I have a

11 concern because at that point, you are taking a whole

12 product out of the standard.

13 MR. WHITWELL: An option.

14 MR. RIVEST: The burden to manufacturers of

15 not having exclusion is increasing the number of

16 listings in the directory.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: They don't have to. They

18 could just -- no because they could still use that

19 asterisk and make it just the aluminum version.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Sorry, but the issue there is

21 that the position that is asterisked, at least for us,

22 covers multiple things.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

38

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Right? And also in some

3 cases, the -- well, it depends on how this list turns

4 out, but in some cases, that thing that is covered by

5 that asterisk would be okay if it is used by itself or

6 with a few other things. But then when you get more

7 stuff piled on top, then suddenly it can't be. So you

8 can't just in the certified basic model, at least as

9 we understood it before -- we have cases where the

10 asterisks maybe could work, but then in other cases

11 where that same position, the asterisk may not work

12 because it may not always be an acceptable --

13 MS. BARHYDT: In the discussion when we talk

14 about putting an asterisk somewhere, don't think of it

15 literally in the context of your specific basic model

16 number. What we are saying is that that is a variable

17 that you are allowed to use. That is a feature that

18 we are allowing to be a variable. So don't think

19 about, "Well, in space number 12 in my model number, I

20 use that for this feature, this feature, this feature,

21 and this feature. And these two are allowed

22 variables, and these two are disallowed variables"
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

39

1 because that is not what we mean when we say, "It is

2 an asterisk." We are just saying that is something

3 that you are allowed to vary within the basic model

4 without any impact being attributed to it.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. Okay. So we'll have

6 to go through this and then see how this comes out --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

8 MR. WHITWELL: -- and then see whether the

9 asterisk works or not.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Right, right.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I guarantee by the

12 time you get to the end of this, your specific

13 asterisk scheme that you use today may not be

14 identical to what you may need to do for the basic

15 model --

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, which --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- because you all do it

18 slightly differently.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And so to say that, you

21 know, but will it be a lot more workable than what you

22 think we have today, hopefully. That is the goal.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

40

1 MR. WHITWELL: Hopefully. Right, hopefully.

2 But John is right. I mean, the impact is how many

3 models are going to have to be put into the database.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So to us, even if we took

5 this out; right, so to Tim's point, if we took this

6 out, we could still pick one, a copper one or aluminum

7 one, any variation thereof, to test. It wouldn't

8 change the way you test unless you wanted to make

9 separate -- it wouldn't change the way you test

10 regardless. If you wanted to make separate ratings of

11 the copper version versus the aluminum version, you

12 would use your AEDM to come up with the separate

13 ratings. And then you would certify them separately.

14 If you did not and just wanted to base it all in

15 aluminum like you are doing today, you could use your

16 AEDM. You rate all the aluminum ones. And, you know,

17 for the copper ones and aluminum ones, you certify

18 them as one basic model, same listing, singular

19 listing, period.

20 It is not changing what you are doing today,

21 but what it allows us to do to also alleviate Tim's

22 concern is that they could be subject to verification
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

41

1 testing, either in industry programs or a DOE program,

2 such that -- and they would be, the five percent would

3 be, applicable. And we go through that process, the

4 same process we have outlined, but that is essentially

5 what you would have. You would have two options: a

6 singular rating for them or you could separate them if

7 you wanted to.

8 So to us, you know, there is probably a line

9 where if it really does just decrease your test energy

10 or stay the same or it's a slight modification that is

11 definitely within the tolerance, you can still do what

12 you are doing today without having to list more unless

13 you want to claim them as different values, which it

14 sounds like you definitely don't or there is no real

15 reason to.

16 MR. AMRANE: Well, I would think we would

17 have to look at this --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

19 MR. AMRANE: -- closely and make sure that,

20 indeed, it's the same or very close because I don't

21 think that --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I can't say I don't --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

42

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And I think DOE said

2 do the same thing, I mean, just looking at the list

3 because, I mean, that is what I am trying to explain,

4 that that is what we would allow.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So basically, so make

6 sure I understand. So for this item that is up here,

7 these items up here, that say, "Decreased test energy"

8 and "Decreased applied energy," DOE's thought is that

9 those could be tested, models with those in them could

10 be tested, and the assumption is that they would

11 perform at or -- they would be equivalent to units

12 that don't have those options?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you would not have to

14 list them separately unless you wanted to make a

15 differentiation point between the ratings.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. And, regardless,

18 you could always use your AEDM. You wouldn't have to

19 test, no more testing.

20 MR. STARR: I was going to say -- Louis

21 Starr -- I think a lot of that is typically you don't

22 test that stuff because those are special team
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

43

1 environment things that you don't really --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. And I am not sure that

3 we would ever necessarily test one either, but to the

4 extent we got a complaint about a specific model that

5 had one of these combinations of things, we may ask

6 you for one.

7 MR. KLEISS: Jeff, Lochinvar. Related to

8 this -- and stop me if I'm getting too far, a step

9 ahead of this, but in terms of the templates or what

10 information we are going to actually report, putting

11 model numbers in to that, to what degree of detail --

12 MS. BARHYDT: You are getting ahead.

13 MR. KLEISS: I am? Okay. I see these two

14 very much --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, so that is where --

16 yes. So, I mean, that is when we are talking about

17 dummy values or stuff like that. I mean, these are

18 types of things that you wouldn't necessarily need to

19 be separate individual model numbers because from

20 DOE's -- you could use A or an asterisk or a question

21 mark or whatever if you wanted to, but that is with

22 the existing scheme. You know, what you have to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

44

1 certify, how you have to certify, what information

2 comes into the Department is on the table after we get

3 through this, probably for my leave.

4 MS. MEYERS: I think maybe the point is the

5 only thing I am struggling with is the additive with

6 that. So green, we typically use two digits for

7 factory options. So it could have a copper coil. So

8 the factory option could be A-Z, which is copper coil

9 only. It could be AN, which is copper coil and hot

10 gas repeats. It could be a 00, which is no options.

11 So I am still kind of struggling with it could be BN,

12 which has like eight of those options. I am trying to

13 figure out. We use asterisks for those two places in

14 our model number because it depends upon the

15 combination of options that the customer --

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right now. Focus on actual

17 model numbers that are used right now. Right now

18 focus on the conceptual what do we want to group

19 together using the same rating and what things need to

20 be basically rated separately because that is what

21 basic models are about. They are not about physical

22 model numbers that are going on products. They are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

45

1 not the model numbers that you are using to code

2 specific skews. It is a conceptual thing.

3 MS. MEYERS: Yes, but model numbers are very

4 important.

5 MS. BARHYDT: I realize that when we get to

6 having you provide that information, we're going to

7 have to have to deal with that, but --

8 MR. EISNER: Guys, guys, the court reporter

9 can't do four or five people at the same time.

10 MS. MEYERS: I am trying to get where you

11 are going. I am just trying to figure out how we

12 would apply that in our factories and in our business.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But where you are

14 coming in --

15 MS. MEYERS: It is not a --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- you would --

17 MS. MEYERS: -- make that connection yet.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would have to. And I am

19 not clear that that is the case yet. So yes, under

20 our existing scheme, we require a basic model and

21 individual model, et cetera, et cetera. And what we

22 are saying is that we are open here. So once we get
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

46

1 the list of finite options, it may have an impact on

2 you that is going to completely change your numbering

3 scheme; whereas, on Rusty, it doesn't change anything

4 he does. So we are going to have to reconcile that

5 and come up with a common way that you can report

6 things to DOE that reflect this list. But until we

7 can get our heads around what actually changes the

8 rating and what doesn't and what is in and what is out

9 for purposes of complying with the standards and

10 coming up with different -- you know, what and how you

11 certify is definitely still on the table for an open

12 discussion. And I have no doubt that will take a half

13 a day or a day to work through because everyone does

14 it differently. And the intent is not to make you all

15 change, but it is to find a common denominator.

16 MR. SACHS: Ashley, I think some of us are

17 having trouble with the mapping question. And the

18 asterisk in manufacturers' models' names is a common

19 accepted practice and has a very specific meaning to

20 them. We are trying to use a different meaning in

21 terms of the basic models and groupings for DOE

22 purposes. I would suggest that we take this new
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

47

1 thing, the DOE purposes, and just call it dagger, not

2 because it is a dagger to the heart, but because it is

3 the next symbol that was used for footnotes. That may

4 make it easier.

5 MR. RIVEST: You know, just having spent a

6 little time in the directory, I can envision using

7 exactly what you are doing, the same asterisks in the

8 same place.

9 MR. SACHS: It may converge to that, but as

10 we are trying to do conceptual things.

11 MR. RIVEST: Right. If they can have that

12 in the back of their mind as a model, that -- because

13 right now, the way it is set up, there is no exclusion

14 for anything. It is only the basic model definition

15 that tells you that of the universe of models they

16 make, you shouldn't be taking certain models for

17 testing.

18 The asterisks themselves are basically a

19 variable that says there are many options here. So it

20 could be the same asterisks, the exact same reporting

21 they have now with a different basic model definition

22 that would limit the sampling.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

48

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We could do it that way,

2 too. That is not how it is implemented now, but that

3 is a planned option. That would not change a single

4 way you do things now in terms of your model number.

5 MR. AMRANE: I think the common meaning

6 meeting for now is what we have in the AHRI program.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

8 MR. RIVEST: I know, but let me be clear for

9 you.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no common between

11 him and him and her and her.

12 MR. AMRANE: Right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I am not saying there

14 necessarily needs to be. But what this list is going

15 to do is say, "Hey, DOE, you can each" -- what Mike is

16 trying to say is "You can each use your different

17 numbering schemes with asterisks and letter

18 combinations and numbers, et cetera, but you need to

19 be cognizant, DOE, when you pick. Make sure you don't

20 get one of these options."

21 MR. RIVEST: That's a filter.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the filter.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

49

1 MR. AMRANE: Filter, yes.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So it is like applying. And

3 this is not how our regs are written now, but that

4 doesn't mean things need to stay or be removed from

5 this list because what we need to talk about is what

6 should be on this list first. And it may very well be

7 then that the certification just is, you know, "I

8 certify however I want to certify now with the

9 different combinations I have now. But DOE, when you

10 go to pick one or to the extent we start accepting a

11 DOE industry program, when they go to pick one, you

12 need to make sure you don't pick one with one of these

13 options," whatever that final list is. That is

14 another way to do it.

15 MR. AMRANE: Okay.

16 MS. DANE: Excuse me. You know, I got a

17 note that the audio portion of the webinar is not

18 going out. I don't know if it is because they have

19 their settings wrong or we are actually not on.

20 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. We are on.

21 MS. DANE: Okay. So is there a different

22 calling number?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

50

1 FEMALE SPEAKER: No.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Not yet.

3 MS. DANE: Okay.

4 MALE SPEAKER: Is somebody trying to give

5 feedback or is it somebody on the line?

6 MS. MEYERS: Is it the mute calling number

7 you used yesterday or do you --

8 FEMALE SPEAKER: No. It's the number that

9 they received when they registered for the webinar.

10 MS. MEYERS: So that is the old number.

11 MS. DANE: The old number?

12 MS. MEYERS: Yes.

13 MS. DANE: Okay. Okay. Thank you.

14 MR. EISNER: Do you want to wait and see if

15 it works, check?

16 MS. DANE: I think we can go on. I just

17 want to make sure that --

18 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. It's working for

19 everyone else on the line.

20 MS. DANE: Okay. Thank you.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. So, I mean, do we
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

51

1 have a sense of where I guess DOE is coming from and

2 Tim may be coming from and where you guys for this one

3 or does somebody want to explain correction capacitors

4 or do we just want to move on to another?

5 MR. EISNER: Looking at it from a different

6 perspective, after all this discussion, does everybody

7 agree on the first cell bullet that it should include

8 copper evaporator coils and corruption capacitors? I

9 realize this is --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I don't think we agree.

11 MR. EISNER: -- for now, for now. We

12 understand you are all going back and you are going to

13 check with others and come back at the next meeting.

14 And we will decide what should be on the final list.

15 Does anybody have an objection to these being

16 included, even now, on the tentative list? Tim?

17 MR. BALLO: Yes. What I have heard about

18 correction capacitors bothers me.

19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Can you tell us about

20 correction capacitors? It sounds like a criminal --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know. Do we literally

22 have them as correction capacitors?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

52

1 MR. FLY: I'll tell you what they are.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. They're --

3 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON.

4 Correction capacitors are a power line. Basically if

5 you put the capacitor on the power line, it changes

6 the power factor, the phase shift at three-phase

7 power, which improves things for the utility because

8 they had bad power factor, they hate inductive bones

9 that shift their frequency in one phase, as opposed to

10 the other. And when you put a power correction

11 capacitor in, your measured power goes lower. It is

12 an expense. They also generate some heat. So I don't

13 really know --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. They do generate some

15 heat.

16 MR. FLY: I don't know what the -- I am not

17 an electrical engineer, unfortunately. So I don't

18 really know what the net is, but they are required in

19 certain applications because the power company is

20 coming to this facility saying, "We will not sell you

21 power until you correct the power factor on your

22 building."
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

53

1 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And if it's not in the

2 unit, then the building has to do it, right, because

3 it can be done either at the source or it can be done

4 --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

6 MR. WHITWELL: -- where it is connected to

7 the grid.

8 MR. FLY: That's the reason we get asked to

9 put them in there.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

11 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any concerns? Any

13 additional questions?

14 MR. STARR: It is pretty uncommon. I mean,

15 usually they are done at the facility level and

16 bigger. Well, when the power company comes in, they

17 are more interested in other things.

18 MR. WHITWELL: But there are some standards

19 that say that if you are causing an issue, you are

20 responsible, your equipment is responsible, for

21 correcting it.

22 MR. FLY: Because you are messing with the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

54

1 whole grid.

2 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

4 MR. FLY: But I would agree. It is a common

5 requested item that does come up.

6 MR. JOHNSON: Neither is comparable.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Neither is comparable. I

8 mean, I place less than one percent. When you place

9 those babies, those are --

10 MR. JOHNSON: Exactly.

11 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Other issues?

12 MR. RIVEST: These do not penalize the

13 tested energy.

14 MR. WHITWELL: They are in the unit. And

15 when it is powered up --

16 MR. JOHNSON: It is in the bucket:

17 increased test energy. I don't know the answer to

18 that.

19 MR. JOHNSON: They probably do; right? I

20 mean, there have been --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: It is theoretical because we

22 have never actually done it.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

55

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, you said the power

2 goes lower.

3 MR. RIVEST: Yes, but it's power factor and

4 not --

5 MR. WHITWELL: It's power factor, but

6 there's also -- I mean, there are going to be some

7 losses.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: There's heat, and there is

9 heat generated --

10 MR. FLY: There is lost heat.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- so that you are having to

12 counteract that heat, depending on if they are in the

13 airstream or not in the airstream, that matters.

14 MR. FLY: Power factor is one of the

15 variables when you calculate watts, amps, volts, and

16 power factor. It is part of that calculation. So

17 when you improve the power factor, the watts go down,

18 but these things also consume some energy in doing

19 that.

20 And I don't know what the net is.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

22 MR. FLY: Like I said, I am not an
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

56

1 electrical engineer.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm not.

3 MR. FLY: And we could find out, but I don't

4 know what it is.

5 MR. AMRANE: I think we have put this to the

6 decrease in energy consumption.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Some are in the airstream, and

8 some are not airstream.

9 MR. AMRANE: We really don't know for sure.

10 So at this point in time, it's there, yes, but we will

11 have to do further --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. AMRANE: -- research on it.

14 MR. RIVEST: This is not again some design

15 option you throw in so that you can build a whole, you

16 know --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, no, no.

18 MR. RIVEST: We do this because somebody

19 makes us.

20 MR. STARR: Just a point of clarification.

21 You know, the thing that makes heat is a resistance

22 element, a capacitor, not a resistor. It's like an
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

57

1 inductor. It's not a resistor. So I don't think they

2 are at energy use. It has to be a capacitor to -- if

3 it is creating heat, there is a problem. So I don't

4 think it affects the -- but I guess we will check. My

5 sense is that it is not.

6 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. From a

7 practical point of view, if you go put your hand on a

8 heavily loaded capacitor trying to correct for power

9 factor, you'll come away with some skin missing. So

10 it does generate heat.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, there is heat. And then

12 the regular coils around the airstream are not -- is

13 that enough heat, you know, when we are talking about

14 these units that are 60 tons of air flow? I can't

15 tell you. But it's one of those additive things that

16 when you add all of these up, now are we, you know --

17 MR. FLY: Yes. I think it is something to

18 consider.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, the --

20 MR. FLY: And we need to do some more

21 research. And we'll have that in a couple of weeks.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. Again, the for now list
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

58

1 or the something to consider list for the next couple

2 of weeks. Any objections to what we have got on the

3 list?

4 Can we go on to the next category: the

5 decreased test energy, increased supplied energy? Do

6 you want to explain those?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: There are none.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: None.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. That's a good

10 explanation. Everybody agrees there are none?

11 Okay. What do you mean by that comment,

12 Ashley?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. I just mean that DOE

14 has a real test procedure issue for them.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Increased test energy,

16 decreased supplied energy, my favorite term,

17 "economizers." Who came up with that term? That was

18 a marketer who is not an engineer?

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Of course, it was marketing.

20 MR. SACHS: Marketing.

21 MR. STARR: Well, it is economizing because

22 you are using free energy that you don't have to run
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

59

1 compressors. So it's economizing because you are

2 using outside air.

3 MR. EISNER: It's just a noun. It sounds

4 like it's out of Star Trek or something.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It is.

6 MR. EISNER: Okay. All right.

7 MR. FLY: It comes with all free coolers

8 also.

9 MR. EISNER: Any questions on economizers?

10 Any concerns? You know, we are talking about a list.

11 Louis?

12 MR. STARR: Well, I guess my concern is that

13 this seems like the economizer should be part of the

14 test procedure, but that's really another issue.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, it's not because it

16 needs to be off this list if it's part of the --

17 MR. WHITWELL: It's not part of the test

18 procedure.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part.

20 MR. WHITWELL: It cannot even --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is not currently.

22 MR. WHITWELL: The industry does not have
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

60

1 test facilities to include it.

2 MR. STARR: You know, it is an interesting

3 thing when we were talking yesterday about what the

4 typical unit had been up on three to five million

5 square feet of going through auditing, building up and

6 building down. So I have in my mind exactly what a

7 real, you know, typical unit is. And they always

8 usually have economizers, climate zones 4 and up,

9 which is 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, which is a huge part of what

10 U.S. is, have economizers.

11 And, you know, it just seems like suddenly

12 you are talking about miles per gallon in a car.

13 Well, everybody kind of knows what a car is. And in

14 my mind, when I think of an air handler, I think that

15 it had an economizer on it. When you talk about was

16 DOE supposed to really model realistic performance of

17 like washing machines and things, you know, you put

18 your typical load of clothes in there. It's the same

19 way with air handlers. It seems like that should be

20 an item that would really be on part of the tested

21 model, but if it's not practical, it would be in the

22 test procedure.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

61

1 MR. DOPPEL: But the economizer is like the

2 downhill part within a car. You know, you are using

3 less gas.

4 MR. STARR: It is helping you out, in other

5 words.

6 MR. AMRANE: Yes, exactly.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: I mean, a test lab would have

8 to bring in outside air. And that is really hard to

9 do.

10 MR. SACHS: Louis, my heart is with you, but

11 my brain is saying that we are not ready for that test

12 procedure revision --

13 MR. STARR: Yes.

14 MR. SACHS: -- my limited brain.

15 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts? Other

16 concerns?

17 MR. THARP: Just as a general comment, there

18 are lots of different types of economizers. As I was

19 going through everybody's list, there's modulating,

20 dual -- all kinds of -- that's a general term,

21 "economizers." There's horizontal. There's down

22 flow. There's up flow. There's left. There's right.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

62

1 MR. RIVEST: I'm going to say it's a lot.

2 Economizers may make perfect sense, not to punish

3 anybody for having those, but if there are all sorts,

4 let's make sure there's no sort out there that would

5 be very inexpensive and become the loophole. So if

6 there is more definition to an economizer, it should

7 probably be added.

8 MR. BALLO: One idea for how maybe to

9 address the possibility of loopholes is we make this

10 basic model definition a restriction on DOE's

11 selections for verification testing but not an

12 exemption from the standard. So you would still

13 theoretically have to comply if you built one of these

14 units, but no one would ever test one? But that would

15 at least preserve the authority for the Department.

16 If someone is coming around building something and

17 saying, "Oh, this has an economizer on it. It's

18 exempt," the product itself would not actually be

19 outside of DOE's enforcement reach.

20 MR. AMRANE: We're not saying that the

21 product is exempt.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

63

1 MR. AMRANE: The product is tested, but it

2 is tested without the economizer. It's tested

3 differently.

4 MR. RIVEST: Is that always going to be

5 feasible? Let's say you're --

6 MR. AMRANE: Oh, yes.

7 MS. MEYERS: That's what we do the basic

8 refrigeration system. That's what we test. So it's

9 without, you know --

10 MR. WHITWELL: You can order the unit with

11 or without the economizer. Otherwise, it's the same.

12 MR. RIVEST: What Karim is saying is that

13 you could order the unit with all those gadgets --

14 MR. AMRANE: That's true.

15 MR. RIVEST: -- and take them all off.

16 MR. WHITWELL: No, not always. I mean,

17 that's --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: No. You can't always --

19 MR. WHITWELL: You would have to take the --

20 MR. AMRANE: It is going to be very

21 difficult because then if you buy a unit out there

22 with all of those things, then you would have to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

64

1 remove them or do something. It is like it is not

2 practical from a DOE standpoint. You would have to do

3 what we do with AHRI:

4 get your basic refrigeration system directly

5 from the manufacturer. Otherwise it is not going to

6 be practical from a DOE standpoint. That is my

7 personal opinion.

8 MR. STARR: One other question. The test

9 procedure is 8064 outside air; right?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Sixty-seven.

11 MR. STARR: Sixty-seven. You wouldn't be

12 using an economizer with that thing, so not --

13 MS. HOOTMAN: That's return air. Eighty

14 sixty-seven is return air.

15 MR. WHITWELL: Return air.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Ninety-five, outdoor.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

18 MR. STARR: So would you be economizing in

19 that particular case?

20 MR. WHITWELL: You are not economizing, but

21 you have some dampers in there to separate the return

22 air from your outdoor air, --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

65

1 MS. HOOTMAN: So it has a pressure drop.

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- which caused a pressure

3 drop.

4 MR. STARR: Right. So that's why I was

5 thinking you don't really need to bring in outside air

6 to do the test procedure. You just need the fact that

7 the pressure drop is in there.

8 MR. WHITWELL: In other words, the pressure

9 drop raises the fan motor power, which increases the

10 overall power draw, which decreases.

11 MR. STARR: Right. But what I am getting at

12 is that you don't actually need to bring in outside

13 air to bring your test procedure; right?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Correct.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true.

16 MR. STARR: So we are just saying we

17 couldn't model --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: So they are going to increase

19 the test of energy, but, in actuality, in actually

20 building your energy usage, that is a positive.

21 MR. AMRANE: Exactly.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: So we are getting hit for it
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

66

1 in

2 --

3 MR. STARR: But you don't get --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: -- our test procedure --

5 MR. STARR: You don't get to --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: But we're not getting the

7 equal--

8 MR. STARR: Right. Okay.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- bang for the buck out there

10 in the actual applied building.

11 MR. STARR: Okay. I buy that.

12 MR. SACHS: Let the record show that this is

13 a little bit theoretical since the damper is never

14 opened.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Harvey, weren't you saying

16 yesterday that you knew all of these studies where the

17 contractors don't install it correctly? We want this

18 stuff put in by the factory; right, because we do it

19 better than they do in the field.

20 MR. SACHS: You know, it's interesting. If

21 you are accusing me of inconsistency, I resemble that.

22 MR. STARR: We have been doing a lot on
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

67

1 this. We use economizers a lot in the Northwest. And

2 so, actually, the problem with economizers is that if

3 they come in the factory, it is great, but what

4 happens is they don't get set up right.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes.

6 MR. STARR: And so it is great. It is like

7 a product that works well in the car, but, unlike the

8 car, it comes from the factory working in a car, but

9 you actually have to set it in the field. So

10 sometimes it is actually better. In our studies, we

11 found out that if we had enhanced commissioning or

12 some version of it, we had better luck with those

13 actually being operable because you have someone going

14 through and checking, making sure it works; whereas,

15 it gets done in the factory, but you can't know what

16 happens actually in the field, the person setting it

17 up right. So there is a mixed bag on those.

18 MR. FLY: Just one more point. The

19 Department is considering IEER ratings. And some of

20 the points in IEER rating would be appropriate for an

21 economizer, but there again, it's not in the test

22 procedure.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

68

1 MS. HOOTMAN: And very hard for the labs to

2 bring in outside air and regulate --

3 MR. FLY: It would be very hard for us to be

4 able to do it.

5 MR. STARR: And the only thing --

6 MR. FLY: It's not even 67 on the coil

7 anymore.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

9 MR. STARR: The only thing I would say is I

10 get the point that you are taking a hit on the test

11 procedure here. You are taking a pressure drop and

12 pressure dent, which is then using more fan energy.

13 And you're not getting, obviously, the free cooling

14 side of it. But the thing about it, that is what is

15 in a unit. So it is kind of modeling what the real

16 thing is. And everybody takes the hit equally. Every

17 unit out there would have to have an economizer.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: But is that really fair for

19 the nation because there are definitely parts of the

20 nation that don't use economizers because of the humid

21 conditions?

22 MR. WHITWELL: This is Bob Whitwell from
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

69

1 Carrier. Just to comment. Carrier has taken the

2 economizer off of our single phase three, five-ton S

3 factory option in response to the current rules. So

4 it's no longer available from the factory. If it is

5 going to be put in the building, it is going to be

6 done retrofit. And it's the same reason as we are

7 talking about here. It is a hit on the SEER. And we

8 don't get the benefit of the economizers. So we have

9 dropped it from our product line. It is not available

10 from the factory anymore. So the impact is we are

11 getting them installed in the field. We have got

12 issues with the quality of the installation that is

13 done in the field. And so overall it is increasing the

14 energy use for the nation.

15 MR. THARP: And Goodman has taken the same

16 position also.

17 MR. STARR: The other part of that, though,

18 this 90.1 committee has looked at where does it make

19 sense to have an economizer. I think that number is

20 54,000 BTU, which is 12. It's like --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: That's that --

22 MR. STARR: -- all the five-ton.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

70

1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's the five --

2 MR. STARR: but once you start getting above

3 that, the equipment there, then it becomes cost4 effective to have an economizer.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. My point is that if we

6 don't have exemptions for an economizer, you are going

7 to see the same thing happen on the larger equipment

8 that we have already done on the smaller, single-phase

9 equipment.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I am actually going to

11 move us forward because the economizer was one of the

12 examples we used. I think it is one of the examples

13 you guys have explained why it is necessary. To the

14 extent in the future the test procedure may need to be

15 changed to reflect it or may not, you know, that is a

16 future discussion and outside of the realm. For now,

17 we are in a situation where, you know, obviously, for

18 something that provides a field benefit and isn't

19 captured in the test procedure, you know, this is the

20 example we were looking for.

21 So can somebody keep going with our list?

22 Because we do want to get through this.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

71

1 MR. EISNER: Let me ask if everybody is

2 agreeing to that. No problems with that?

3 All right.

4 MR. SACHS: I think we are all in a

5 tentative point right now.

6 MR. EISNER: I understand. That is the

7 whole list.

8 The next item is ERVs, HRVs.

9 MR. SACHS: Let me just throw one other

10 thing in in initial response to Bob's comment that it

11 may be that a similar approach may not work across all

12 capacities. The three to five-ton units are rated

13 differently and are potentially derived, if I am

14 correct, from the residential models. And they are

15 not designed from the ground up for commercial

16 applications. So it may be that that is a carve-out

17 that people would want to make. Again, this is a

18 future discussion that I want to place on the record.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: It is a good point, Harvey.

20 We will look at that.

21 MR. SACHS: Please. It would be helpful.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. The next item on the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

72

1 list?

2 MR. THARP: Energy recovery for heat

3 recovery.

4 MR. SACHS: I look at those three items as

5 all being subsets. I mean, the heat pipe is just

6 another way to do heat recovery.

7 MR. THARP: Yes, right.

8 MR. SACHS: So why don't we just lump them

9 together?

10 MR. EISNER: Any objections to that?

11 It's just all energy and/or heat recovery.

12 MR. THARP: The next line also, actually.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Those are all existing

14 technologies.

15 MR. EISNER: Coated coils.

16 MR. WHITWELL: So the discussion there is,

17 as we mentioned before, you put the coating on the

18 coil and it decreases the heat transfer to some

19 extent; right? So it can decrease your EER measure

20 out of the box, but it will sustain the performance

21 much longer. So over the life of the product, you are

22 going to use significantly less energy. And these are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

73

1 just for CCOS, typically CCOS applications, where you

2 have --

3 MR. THARP: Or industrialized.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Or industrial.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Or industrial.

6 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: In lieu of the copper

8 evaporative coil, which, you know, in the future, that

9 copper evaporative coil may change because literally

10 copper is very, very expensive now. So that is going

11 way down. And they are going to the coated coils

12 instead.

13 MR. RIVEST: You know what I'm going to say.

14 We will have to define coating so people don't spray

15 it with acrylic or something.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Should we say baked coil or

17 what do you want to say?

18 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I don't know. I mean,

19 not everybody uses --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: They're not all baked coil

21 anymore.

22 MR. THARP: But, then again, just because a
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

74

1 coated coil is an option, the basic model would still

2 be acceptable for tasks.

3 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. If you were to look at

4 ordering a unit from us, you can order the exact same

5 thing with coated coils or without coated coils.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

7 MR. WHITWELL: So you would just order it

8 with

9 --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, just to play devil's

11 advocate here, I could order the one that is the base

12 right at the 11.0 minimum. And when you put that

13 coating on, well, I see it will maintain the integrity

14 of the use over time better because it has that

15 coating in a caustic environment. It would definitely

16 degrade that EER value right out the gate.

17 MR. WHITWELL: There is a slight --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that one I could never

19 test.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

21 MR. RIVEST: And my biggest concern is that

22 a manufacturer comes up and offers only coated heat
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

75

1 exchangers.

2 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So that gets to Tim's point

4 of retaining enforcement authority.

5 MR. AMRANE: The purpose of doing that would

6 be just to enroll the EER, just to be exempted from --

7 MR. RIVEST: To save a few bucks and

8 undercut

9 --

10 MR. AMRANE: It is not a few bucks because -

11 -

12 MR. RIVEST: It costs a few bucks if the

13 coating isn't the problem.

14 MR. WHITWELL: So would it be -- I'm sorry.

15 Go ahead.

16 MR. STARR: No. I was just saying spray

17 painting the coating on there, too.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Would it be acceptable to say

19 in here that these are exempted, but DOE would have

20 the right to order a unit with the same

21 characteristics as one with coated coils? I mean, you

22 know, somehow get that wording in there?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

76

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I think that's where

2 Tim was going, but we could exclude them for the fact

3 of listing separately. So you don't need to list them

4 separately, but we would retain the ability to

5 enforce. So they would be subject to the minimums.

6 MR. WHITWELL: But the issue here is that

7 okay. An individual if you just test the unit with

8 coated coils, okay. No problem; right? It's going to

9 be within the five percent. But if you start stacking

10 things up, you have got coated coils. You have got

11 hail guards. You've got dehumidification. You have

12 got indoor fan motor. You've got economizer. You

13 start stacking all those up. And the impact gets to

14 be real; right?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is real.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I tell you we are

17 concerned. We start stacking up. And you get from

18 our 11 standard to a 10. I am just making up numbers

19 completely. That is a real issue.

20 MR. WHITWELL: I understand the concern.

21 MR. AMRANE: That is not an issue we get.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is an issue.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

77

1 MR. AMRANE: On basic, it is an issue, but

2 on energy consumption, it is not. It could be that

3 you will be saving more energy.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: It could be if somebody --

5 MR. AMRANE: Because we go down.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why are we screaming?

7 MR. AMRANE: No, I am not screaming. I'm

8 saying there we go down. Why? It would save energy

9 over a long time. You would save energy.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Some of them do, and some of

11 them don't. Karim, we have a list here. It is going

12 to be -- you know, we are not trying here to say, "I

13 am going to take 20 things, pile them on, and now you

14 have to meet the standard." You know, obviously that

15 is not the idea. We are trying to get just a middle

16 ground that is reasonable to say, "Okay. These things

17 are in. And that is where we are going with this

18 discussion and trying to really understand what are

19 these things, how they are actually applied, how they

20 are actually ordered, how they come through in the

21 test procedure, and what they do in the field. So

22 that is the purpose of doing this." You do have
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

78

1 standards.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: And also how our AEDM can

3 predict those ratings. And I would say that that is

4 one of the harder things, telling or portraying what

5 the additive effect, add and subtract effect, is in

6 our AEDMs because we don't necessarily -- we base them

7 on basic refrigeration systems, like we have talked

8 about. And we haven't based it on what do all of those

9 mean. So it is sitting there today. We don't have

10 tested values for them.

11 MR. HON: Charlie Hon. Truly, coils can be

12 very difficult because depending on the quality of

13 your coating makes all the difference in the world.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

15 MR. HON: We have some very harsh

16 environments in the food service industry where it is

17 around vinegar all the time. We have a very, very

18 heavy coil which will impact the efficiency of the

19 unit by more than ten percent. But it is necessary

20 because of the corrosive factors involved, the same as

21 industrial applications may have exactly the same

22 problem. So coated coils may be 1 or 2 percent change
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

79

1 in energy, as much as 10 or 15 percent change in

2 energy depending on what is coated. And that is where

3 the problems come in for you guys because under severe

4 conditions, you know, we are talking some environments

5 where food materials have very high acetic acid

6 content inside of a refrigerator open. And they will

7 eat up anything unless you really put a heavy coat on

8 it. And if you put the heavy coat on, you don't get

9 efficiency.

10 So that's part of the question we're facing

11 here, that we're going to all face the same question

12 here because it is going to come up again. But there

13 are conditions in certain parts of the world that are

14 nasty. And coating of the coil will put it out there,

15 yes.

16 MR. RIVEST: So in other products, you know,

17 there could be a product class defined for harsh

18 environments.

19 MR. HON: Yes.

20 MR. RIVEST: And the analysis would be done

21 separately for that. The standard level resulting

22 from that could be different.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

80

1 MR. HON: Well, we would make adjustments

2 off of the more base model because we had all the

3 other information on a more base model, not just the

4 harsh environment models because there is another

5 thing involved there, but we will be doing modeling on

6 things like this. And that is one of the things we

7 would consider in our adjustments, the type of

8 coatings we would put on there. But if you exempt it,

9 you can have some major changes in efficiency.

10 MR. STARR: It seems like on this list,

11 there are definitely things that -- like the

12 economizer is pretty clear there is value in it. But

13 there are other things that seem like it's more of a

14 utility, like the coated coils. I mean, is there

15 supposed to be a distinction between these two in

16 this? Because the coated coils save energy in the

17 fact that later, the coils are not destroyed. So you

18 are saving energy because you are not buying another

19 set of coils, but it is not captured in the test

20 procedure.

21 MR. HON: It can have a potentially major

22 impact in the test depending on the quality and the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

81

1 type of material you provided. And that may be

2 dependent on the environment you are applying it to.

3 MR. EISNER: Yes?

4 MR. SACHS: If I could, the vinegar example

5 is really an industrial case, I guess, in two senses.

6 If we could pull back to the HVAC for just a minute, I

7 would like to offer a straw man, which is that as I am

8 thinking about it, each of these options in almost

9 every case has a significant expense. And that

10 expense -- again, I am brainstorming to try to get a

11 resolution -- probably is percentage-wise greater than

12 the decrement to efficiency from including it, sound

13 traps, for example, of the coils.

14 Now, DOE has some interest in having lower15 cost models that it has to buy. Now, is there around

16 that pair of factors a way that operationally we can

17 agree the DOE is going to be wanting to look at the

18 simpler, more basic things for its actual testing and

19 taking comfort that we might lose a little bit of

20 individual product savings by the time we get a

21 heavily coated coil, lots of sound traps and damper

22 designs and everything else. So we are losing a
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

82

1 little bit on energy savings nationally for a few

2 products, but it is not likely to develop a lot of

3 leakage because of the incremental costs.

4 Is that a reasonable hypothesis? And is Tim

5 going to shoot?

6 MR. BALLO: I mean, my concern, I think it's

7 the same with my phrase, that someone comes up with

8 something they call a coating for a coil and it

9 enables them to make a really crummy coil because they

10 know that you don't want that to be tested. They can

11 put a bad fan motor in it. They can do whatever they

12 want because it's not going to be tested.

13 MR. AMRANE: But, again, we are not saying

14 that it is not going to be tested. If that's where we

15 are, every unit is going to be tested with a

16 conventional coil. That's maybe what we need to put

17 in there. You know, we are not going to be testing

18 the unit with the coated coil. We are going to be

19 testing the unit without.

20 MR. SACHS: The protection on that

21 particular case, there certainly is or can be an ASTM

22 standard for corrosion coatings.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

83

1 MR. BALLO: But if I am back down in

2 manufacturing and I only make coated coils, it is a

3 shame. You can't get one without the coating to test.

4 MR. AMRANE: That would be the base model

5 number.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You would be having a

7 hard time being in the real world with just only

8 coated coils. They are expensive. And so, you know,

9 I mean, I see it as there are ones on this list that

10 are used a lot of the time. Like we have said about

11 economizers, they are used quite a bit. Coated coils

12 held -- these are like less than five percent options.

13 So they are very, very infrequently used. People only

14 buy them when they truly want them.

15 MR. HURST: You are worried about the

16 loopholes; right?

17 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

18 MR. HURST: Can't we put something in the

19 language that says something around a no-loophole

20 clause, I mean, to this --

21 We are talking about bad actors that would

22 go out and spray paint coils; right? I mean, I don't
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

84

1 think we would do that. I don't think most of our

2 competitors would do that, but if you run across that

3 situation, there ought to be some language that says

4 that is not an exclusion.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that's the --

6 MR. HURST: We saw them in a heartbeat.

7 MS. MEYERS: We would turn people like that

8 in.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is a main

10 issue, but at the same time, it's also the issue of --

11 you know, it's one thing to have a small percentage of

12 the market that is needed in close-to or below

13 standards with intolerance or something like that.

14 It's another thing for the Department to say that we

15 have something on the market that we know is a 15 to

16 20 percent reduction in our standard and it's excluded

17 wholesale, period, regardless of the situation or

18 regardless of the person or regardless. So that just

19 -- you know, a wide exclusion like that, well, we

20 understand the utility and the necessity of that being

21 it's hard for the Department to make a statement to

22 say, "Okay. Well, this wide exclusion is okay" across
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

85

1 the board. Can't you do it another way?

2 MR. MANDYCK: Can't you require that every

3 basic model be tested? If your only basic model has

4 these features, then that is your basic model.

5 MR. STANONIK: That is your basic model.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the bad actor.

7 MR. AMRANE: They are only making that

8 maybe.

9 MR. STANONIK: We're talking about options

10 off of a basic model. If the only thing a

11 manufacturer sells is this product with coated coils,

12 that is not an option. That is his model.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: What if they make two --

14 MR. STANONIK: Well, then you --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- a regular one and this

16 one?

17 MR. STANONIK: If they make two and he is

18 making crappy coils that are coated or --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the regular one is with

20 the minimums and the coated one is 20 percent below.

21 MR. EISNER: Is there an adjective --

22 somebody asked this a half-hour, 45 minutes ago -- an
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

86

1 adjective you can put in front of corrosion that will

2 address Tim's concern and some of the other problems

3 people are having?

4 MR. RIVEST: I think I heard two ideas, that

5 one there that if they are only put in models, that

6 becomes the basic model. I also heard that the

7 manufacturer must supply an uncoated model that is

8 identical in every other respect to the testing

9 sample.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not sure that --

11 MR. RIVEST: Well, you have more concerns

12 than I do.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's true.

14 MR. FLY: We are talking about the things

15 that are going to be excluded; right, that are out,

16 the out things from DOE? And I guess in concept, at

17 least at this point, the conversation at least said

18 that ERV and economizers -- I think the Department is

19 kind of nodding their head that that is okay. It

20 sounds like coated coils is something that the

21 Department isn't ready to entirely agree with and --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fair.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

87

1 MR. FLY: You know, just trying to put it

2 all in perspective, are we beating this dead horse?

3 Do we need to move on and -- because we are going to

4 go through this list again.

5 MR. AMRANE: Remember one thing. Let's say

6 that we don't allow coated coil. It is going to be

7 done in the field, and you have no control about it

8 anyway. So, I mean, it is going to happen.

9 MR. WHITWELL: There are after-market

10 people.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you can --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Now we are back to Harvey's

13 issue --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think it is

15 pertinent

16 --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: -- where the field is doing

18 the crappy quality and crappy installations and --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, from my perspective, I

20 don't care to list them differently. You know, how

21 you want to list them, how you want to market them,

22 you know, at least from my perspective, it doesn't
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

88

1 matter. It is the minimum standards issue that is

2 really what we're talking about here. So to say that

3 there is a blanket exclusion for certain things that

4 we know can have significant impacts on the tested

5 efficiency, you know, I think that the Department is

6 put in a pretty awkward position to just blink at

7 those. You know, that is not to say that we won't

8 consider them, but I will say that those

9 considerations and exclusions from my perspective, you

10 know, may be more narrow than broad.

11 MS. MEYERS: You know, this is kind of a

12 different area that if we want we could take offline,

13 but could the Department look at something kind of

14 like DOT does and like a CAT-based standard, average

15 product efficiency across -- because we are talking

16 commercial units, you know, definitely not advocate

17 this in a residential market, but, you know, because

18 there are so many application-specific needs that we

19 are trying to meet as manufacturers, I mean, is that

20 something that we could work with?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. And in order to prove

22 your average, you have to test all the different
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

89

1 combinations. Is that what you really want?

2 MR. STEPHENS: Why don't you just report the

3 numbers per year that you sold that had these features

4 which were of concern? That would keep those guys

5 trying to skirt the system from -- they would realize

6 that "Holy cow. They're going to know that we're

7 playing the basic model game," and they would need two

8 different basic models. I mean, I don't have a --

9 MR. FLY: So is what you are proposing that

10 if you are less than five percent of your total sales,

11 don't worry about it kind of thing?

12 MS. MEYERS: All of these are very real

13 needs that the market has. It's not like we're

14 putting these options on there to get around a DOE

15 test procedure standard or trying to gain anything.

16 You know, this is a pain for us because, you know, you

17 don't build that many of these. But, you know, you

18 have got to do the bills, and you have got to keep

19 track of it. These are one-offs. And, you know, what

20 a manufacturer wants is high production of the very

21 same thing.

22 What I am trying to figure out is we are
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

90

1 going to have the same discussion on every one of

2 these bullet points. And I don't know how we are

3 going to have it resolved. It is just I am just

4 trying to think of a different way that maybe we can

5 look at this or approach this. I don't really have

6 the answer. We can take it offline if you need to.

7 MR. RIVEST: Ashley would probably say if

8 you can't meet with this basic model platform of a

9 coated heat exchanger, don't provide it on your --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: On that minimum baseline

11 here.

12 MR. RIVEST: -- on the baseline provided on

13 your --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: The next one.

15 MR. MANDYCK: I guess my question is we've

16 been operating this way for 30 years with the

17 Department's knowledge. So where is the case where

18 fraud has been reported and you have tested units and

19 you have seen a significant variation? Are we solving

20 for a problem that doesn't exist?

21 MR. DOPPEL: Paul Doppel, Mitsubishi. Along

22 that same line, can we exclude every possibility? If
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

91

1 someone is going to perpetrate a fraud, they are going

2 to do it. They are going to find some way to do that.

3 And then the question is, how long can they remain in

4 business? Who is going to buy from them?

5 MR. EISNER: Is that an exception to the

6 exception where the agency has indication or evidence

7 or complaints about fraud to the application of these

8 exceptions? They can test other equipment.

9 MR. DOPPEL: Absolutely.

10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to put that in the

11 document? Would that satisfy your concerns? I don't

12 know what kind of information you get that leads you

13 to believe that it is fraud, but some definition of

14 information which you believe that you can test.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, I think that it is

16 the tensile point; right, the fact that, you know,

17 there are some units, such as these, that should just

18 be subject to or could be subject to enforcement. And

19 that would be that if we tested one and it was way

20 below the standard, they would go through the

21 enforcement process just like any base unit would. So

22 when you are designing, you would keep that in mind.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

92

1 It is not to change the way you have been doing

2 business for 30 years, but at the same time, you know,

3 it is something --

4 MR. EISNER: Let's focus on --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: So are you telling me you

6 are designing for below the standard?

7 MR. JOHNSON: The base model is meeting the

8 standard.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: The base model --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So you are cognizantly

11 putting things on, a combination of things on, a base

12 model that goes below the standard?

13 MR. JOHNSON: It may.

14 MS. MEYERS: We are also putting things on

15 that base model that increase the efficiency. And we

16 are not claiming that either. So, you know, again,

17 it's like the average product of this design.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thirty years in, but it is

19 going to be a gift. I mean, what do we want here?

20 MR. MANDYCK: I guess again --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not going to say,

22 "Okay. Keep doing it for another 30."
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

93

1 MR. MANDYCK: Where is the evidence of the

2 wide-scale problem? I mean, I guess that has been the

3 issue here. We don't have Harvey coming up to us and

4 saying, "You guys are cheating the law." We don't

5 have consumers complaining to us. We don't have

6 enforcement action. This has been a system that has

7 served the country well and has saved a lot of energy.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do they know?

9 MR. BALLO: But we brave knowing the law

10 here. The law says the manufacturer shall not put into

11 commerce a unit that does not comply with the

12 standard. And if you are putting in a base model that

13 just meets the standard with a coated coil that takes

14 it below the standard that's violating the law.

15 MR. DOPPEL: But technically we are not

16 doing that because what we are doing is we are

17 building HVAC systems that are being tested in test

18 lab conditions, which is the original intent. And

19 then to that base model, for the convenience of

20 customers, we are adding things that help promote

21 better installation, flexibility, usability of the

22 products that help prolong the use, that help energy
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

94

1 efficiency within that building. Because that is all

2 going at one time, it actually is saving more energy

3 because additional energy isn't spent to shift the

4 separate components to that job site. Overall, there

5 is a savings of energy that is being done.

6 MR. MANDYCK: Well, in the case of the

7 coated coil, the degradated coil will immediately

8 start to lose efficiency.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Absolutely.

10 MR. MANDYCK: So what you have done is on

11 the life cycle cost, you are saving a whole lot more

12 energy because you are maintaining the design

13 efficiency level, as opposed to having it degrade

14 every year because the coil is degrading.

15 MR. AMRANE: We are having an academic

16 discussion here because all of those options can be

17 put in the field. So yes, I mean, it would be done

18 anyway. So I am not sure what I am trying to --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: Or somebody in the field --

20 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with NEEA.

21 You know, a lot of the problems, you know, especially

22 the detailee programs and other things, but in
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

95

1 general, when you go to model equipment and you create

2 an energy model for a building, you stick in the SEER

3 rating or the EER rating into eQUEST. And it uses

4 some approximation of how that unit performs on that.

5 Having the correct number that sort of represents what

6 the unit is is kind of important. And so a lot of the

7 problems you have in predicting energy use have to do

8 with this stuff not really reflecting what is actually

9 out there in the field.

10 And as far as adding things that save, there

11 are a lot of things that are added to air handlers

12 that don't necessarily increase its energy but has

13 utility. And the coatings, you know, I mean, you know,

14 I guess you could argue in the long run, it adds

15 energy, but there are other things that are added to

16 air handlers that don't really necessarily increase

17 the energy efficiency but are required to operate in a

18 given environment. And so they are more just a fact

19 of reality, but they don't necessarily actually

20 increase the energy.

21 It would be nice to have a real

22 representation of how energy of a product that is out
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

96

1 in the field, how much energy it really uses, rather

2 than the base model. I realize there are problems in

3 trying to create that base model in all this

4 discussion we are having about how you add different

5 elements on there and how you account for it, but

6 realistically it would be nice to have something that

7 reflects the true energy use of a product that is out

8 there.

9 A lot of times when we go out to a building

10 and want to figure out how much energy it is, they

11 stick a bunch of dataloggers on the equipment and

12 monitor for three or four weeks. And then you create

13 your own power curve.

14 Wouldn't it be nice if we had some idea when

15 we put a new piece of equipment on how much energy it

16 is using based upon some real test data that is

17 reflective of that? I realize the difficulties of it,

18 but realistically we are getting those numbers now.

19 MR. DOPPEL: But that's not the intent of

20 this number. This is not an installed efficiency.

21 This is a --

22 MS. MEYERS: A comparison between --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

97

1 MR. DOPPEL: -- base model --

2 MS. MEYERS: Right.

3 MR. DOPPEL: -- efficiency. Well, but --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: The comparison between units

5 is not --

6 MS. MEYERS: That's really all it is. It is

7 a comparison between units.

8 MR. DOPPEL: Every manufacturer, major

9 manufacturer, has a program that can be used that

10 takes that efficiency and applies it to a building and

11 allows for economizer or other things to show how that

12 equipment is going to operate in the building.

13 MR. STARR: That does not adjust to SEER.

14 Let's take the economizer. I mean, how does your SEER

15 rating change by adding an economizer to it? There

16 are no models. I mean, you are --

17 MR. WHITWELL: We are not going to fix that

18 with this.

19 MR. STARR: Well, I agree.

20 MR. AMRANE: Outside.

21 MR. DOPPEL: Again, this is not installed

22 efficiency. You have to keep that separate.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

98

1 MR. STARR: Keep in mind the Department of

2 Energy is supposed to model, and that is one of their

3 rules. They are supposed to model the actual product

4 as to how it is used in commerce. So I understand

5 that the air handler rating system is trying to

6 compare apples to apples, but what it is not really

7 doing is measuring the actual --

8 MR. AMRANE: What you want is what the SBC9 205 actually is trying to do. So hopefully there will

10 be information in the future, but this is not really -

11 -

12 MR. STARR: Yes. I mean --

13 MR. AMRANE: -- why we are talking here

14 today.

15 MR. STARR: Yes. I guess my point is I

16 realize the difficulty in what they are trying to do

17 and how manufacturers for the last 40 years or 30

18 years have had a system which they can compare their

19 products to one another and engineers can make

20 decisions based upon that and have an okay way of

21 choosing equipment. But at the same time, it would be

22 nice if that could be modified to more reflect the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

99

1 real-world situation of energy use. And I think that

2 is what they are trying to achieve. Now, whether that

3 can be accomplished is another question.

4 MR. FLY: These metrics are not appropriate

5 for lower modeling. That is the problem. They are

6 just not. There isn't enough information there to do

7 it.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

9 MS. MEYERS: All EER does is compare the

10 basic model efficiency between units. It is nothing

11 about an energy predictor.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Applied energy.

13 MS. MEYERS: Applied energy.

14 MR. EISNER: Is it appropriate to have a

15 basic model that nobody is buying as part of the test

16 that is only there to pass some preliminary DOE

17 requirements and then they're modifying it in ways

18 that defeat the whole purpose of the program? I am

19 not clear on that. I keep hearing people say, well,

20 they have got a statutory responsibility, but it is

21 only a basic model they are testing. What is the

22 purpose of the basic model if it is not to help you
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

100

1 get better information about efficiency?

2 So if there is clear fraud, with or without

3 evidence now, are we setting up a system that can

4 allow for fraud and defeat the purpose of the system?

5 You guys are all doing a good job. You are all trying

6 to make sure that you do it right. Are we creating

7 incentives for people to try and defeat the process?

8 MR. STARR: I don't think it's fraud. I

9 think it's more the technical discussion around how to

10 accomplish real-world measurement of the energy. So

11 it is not really that people are trying to skirt the

12 system. It's just that the way the system is set up

13 now doesn't really report the true base model or

14 something you would actually see.

15 MR. EISNER: Oh, yes. I will accept that,

16 but I have heard comments about people simply putting

17 a coat of paint on there for the purposes of avoiding

18 getting that product tested. And they give you a

19 basic model that --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: That was a --

21 MR. DOPPEL: Nobody does it.

22 MR. EISNER: Nobody has ever done it doesn't
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

101

1 necessarily mean it is okay to allow it to happen in

2 the future.

3 MR. MANDYCK: You know, we are not going to

4 be able to stop defrauding the people, no matter what

5 system we design. So we have other mechanisms to

6 address that in the definition of a base model.

7 MR. THARP: And, as an example, in AHRI, on

8 the certification program, manufacturers submit our

9 coil information. We say the number of rows. We take

10 the type of fin it is, the number of fin density, the

11 number of circuits. We give a lot of detail about the

12 physical parameters of the -- and that is checked when

13 we go through the AHRI program. So that is the base

14 model. And so we verify, it is verified, that the

15 base model being tested meets the manufacturer's

16 specifications. And then that base model is verified

17 that it meets the minimum efficiency requirements and

18 then whatever is done as being supplied in the field,

19 I mean, the manufacturer, these manufacturers don't

20 really have a say in how they do or what they do after

21 the fact and if it gets to a point where we have to go

22 certify all of these models, that they do that. They
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

102

1 can stay. The manufacturer will stop offering these

2 options factory-installed. And somewhere somebody

3 will start making these accessories, installing them

4 in, too.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: And it will be lower than the

6 --

7 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers with PVI.

8 To that end, is it possible with the Department -- you

9 don't have to answer this now, but would it be

10 possible that we could have something that says,

11 instead of -- these are all excluded from the test,

12 "Identify these as items that can be added in field or

13 not included in the test." And if there are any here

14 that cannot be added in the field, then have a

15 discussion about those.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, but am I right? Are you

17 asking that we as manufacturers don't put them in in

18 the factory and now we are pushing it back to the --

19 MR. MYERS: I was suggesting a different way

20 of looking at what we are talking about here that

21 anything that can be added in the field, we won't be

22 testing because it is better if the manufacturer adds
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

103

1 it, getting back to the basic model concept.

2 MR. STANONIK: I think he is redefining the

3 list as options or features which may be added in the

4 field but which may also be provided by manufacturers.

5 MR. EISNER: This raises a good point. If

6 it can be added in the field, I assume DOE does not

7 have the authority to regulate it if it's not being

8 added by the manufacturer that you regulate. So if it

9 can be added in the field so that they can --

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I --

11 MR. EISNER: Go on.

12 MS. BARHYDT: It may vary under the

13 circumstances. It is not a clear-cut --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's complicated.

15 MR. EISNER: Well, how would you make the

16 argument that you have to require the manufacturer to

17 meet a test that can be avoided by having someone else

18 install it in in the field and result in even more

19 quality?

20 Let me ask another question related to that.

21 I would assume based on a lot of warranties I have

22 seen that if it's modified by somebody other than the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

104

1 manufacturer, the warranty may no longer apply. Is

2 that common?

3 MS. HOOTMAN: This is Jill with Trane. I

4 would say when I talk to lawyers about that, yes, we

5 as manufacturers are always going to kind of state

6 that, but they all tell me that, in actuality, we

7 still may have to stand behind parts of that warranty

8 when it came down to the actual litigation. So now we

9 are going to stand up there and say, "It voids our

10 warranty," but they are all going to stand back there

11 and go, "Jill, actually, when we go into court, some

12 of that is going to still be done."

13 MR. EISNER: Totally. This may --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: So, you know, I am just saying

15 they hedged their bet on that one.

16 MR. EISNER: Yes, because what was done to

17 it in the field had absolutely no effect on the

18 particular thing that failed.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Before we go this way, can

20 we go --

21 MS. MEYERS: As a matter of policy, --

22 MR. EISNER: Right.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

105

1 MS. MEYERS: -- from Rheem's perspective, we

2 would clearly state that it would be a modification of

3 the unit that was not in a specifically minimal range

4 with more than one --

5 MR. EISNER: Let's take a 15-minute break

6 now.

7 (Off the record.)

8 (On the record.)

9 MR. EISNER: Might we all get into our seats

10 again? Our host would like to start off with a few

11 comments with a list behind me.

12 MR. SACHS: I noticed I have been trying to

13 think through some things. We have evolved a long

14 ways -- can you flip that other light switch out? --

15 in the last 30 years. In the work we do here, we see

16 three very different uses for ratings. And that's a

17 generalization. One of them is the product legal to

18 sell; does it meet a minimum requirement? The second

19 one, can we get enough information for a sensible

20 utility or other public benefits incentive program for

21 better equipment? And that is Louis Starr's focus.

22 And the third one, which is yet again different, is
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

106

1 the information required for engineering applications.

2 And there are a lot of ways to approach that.

3 My concern here is that while we focus on

4 what is legal to sell, what meets minimum criteria,

5 that we at least keep in the back of our minds whether

6 the criteria here are even useful in these other two

7 applications and what information as a group outside

8 of this, not as a group but as individuals outside, we

9 need to keep in our minds we can keep saving energy

10 and making money through things here that are easy to

11 apply. End of rant.

12 MR. EISNER: Does anybody want to make a

13 comment on that or question about it?

14 MR. HALLEY: Well, in support of the --

15 certainly, you know, the emphasis right here is on the

16 product itself, the boiler, the air conditioner, or

17 whatever, but once you've got a certain efficiency,

18 you've got to put it in the right system, too, to

19 really get all the benefits of the things you've done

20 to improve the efficiency and get to a certain level

21 of efficiency.

22 MR. EISNER: Other thoughts or comments?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

107

1 Yes?

2 MR. STARR: Louis Starr again. The thing

3 about the incentives -- I know we have talked a little

4 bit about this earlier -- is that benchmark is very

5 good. And the industry has essentially done that.

6 But one of the things you really do is you have to

7 translate this equipment to actually providing

8 incentives. The other thing is you go back later and

9 measure how much energy you actually save. That has

10 to deal with some of the regulations with utilities

11 and how they work.

12 So if you think you are saving a certain

13 amount of energy, you sort of need to know. You need

14 to be accurate about that. You can't, say, you know,

15 do a mathematical calculation and have a theoretical

16 number of how much energy. It actually gets measured

17 later. So the ability to connect the rating of the

18 equipment to actual savings in the field is pretty

19 important. I realize it's a very hard task, but it

20 would be nice to have those things wind up.

21 MR. SACHS: I like AEDMs because they can

22 leave resources for working on bullets 2 and 3. So if
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

108

1 we can flip down that light again? This is the end of

2 the commercial. Return to our regularly scheduled

3 programming.

4 MR. EISNER: All right. As a result of the

5 meeting, DOE wants to talk about how they would like

6 to proceed now.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think generally, we

8 realize that things have been done for a long period

9 of time, the way they have been done perhaps on a base

10 model and that the existing standards, which are for

11 many times of commercial HVAC, which were the result

12 of consensus that then went through Congress, that are

13 statutory now, may have been, you know, developed and

14 agreed upon based on the base model concept and a base

15 model meeting them in compliance with that.

16 So I think in the near term, DOE is willing

17 to work through this list. This is not to say that we

18 agree with everything on it now. We are willing to

19 work through a concept of this list in the base model

20 concept for today.

21 Now, that being said, some of the items on

22 the list are things that DOE would treat differently.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

109

1 So, for example, we might set separate credit classes.

2 And we would do a cost-benefit analysis to come up

3 with standards accordingly for those or we might do

4 something different through the test procedures

5 process or test procedure waiver process. We would

6 address them in the appropriate manner. And,

7 obviously, that would be an over-time thing. So it

8 wouldn't be an immediate thing.

9 So I think from the Department's

10 perspective, we would like to hear explanations as we

11 have heard throughout the morning of the rest of the

12 items on the list just for our benefit and then

13 recognizing that we are willing to deal with the list

14 in the base model concept near term, but we want to do

15 something different long term.

16 MR. HURST: What does that mean? What does

17 "do something different long term" --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think, for example, for

19 certain ones -- I will go right to coated coils;

20 right? Coated coils is something we would look at as a

21 product class issue. It provides a specific utility.

22 It has different costs. It would have different
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

110

1 benefits. We would analyze that as a product class, a

2 separate product class. And we would look at the

3 cost-benefit analysis of setting a different standard

4 for something with a coated coil and the potential of

5 that. So it wouldn't be on a list as not applicable

6 to standards. It would be on the list as applicable

7 perhaps to different standards after we went through

8 the appropriate analysis and rulemaking and that.

9 MR. AMRANE: So now you give it while

10 manufacturers are providing those units to test with -

11 -

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. And this wouldn't be a

13 near-term thing. I mean, for us to even get through

14 rulemaking and make something like that, you are

15 looking at seven years out at least; right?

16 MR. AMRANE: Right, but eventually that

17 would be --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: But there would be no

19 additional testing; right? You would use your AEDM.

20 There would be no testing, period.

21 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: It would be that they would
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

111

1 be clearly subject to the standards and clearly

2 subject to whatever standards may be applicable. And

3 it would be clearly subject to potential choosing by a

4 verification program or DOE one or industry one, one

5 debt. And it wouldn't be now. It is a middle ground.

6 It is not meant to change the way you have been doing

7 business for 30 years today, but it is a way that we

8 can work through what we believe are our legal

9 requirements and our regulatory scheme and also be

10 responsive and flexible to you over time.

11 MR. AMRANE: And how would you address,

12 let's say, what is quoted in the field?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know, Karim. I

14 don't know the answers to everything. All I am saying

15 is from the Department's position, we would feel a lot

16 more comfortable that some of these things, you know,

17 you would address them in different manners. Some may

18 need to stay on the list, just the list like this,

19 forever or, you know, for a long period of time.

20 Others may need to be dealt with in a test procedure.

21 Others may need to be dealt with in the standards

22 process through the product process. It's just that
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

112

1 our avenues for dealing with this stuff are a little

2 different than a blanket list, although this is what

3 we need to deal with today. You may want that.

4 MR. HURST: You may choose at some point to

5 go through the regular process.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

7 MR. HURST: You see commentary.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

9 MR. HURST: We would say, you know, that the

10 trade-off would be field application done poorly

11 versus us pumping up --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we would have to weight

13 that in our decisions, absolutely.

14 MR. HURST: Yes.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it would go through a

16 separate process. I just want to make you guys aware

17 that some of the uncomfortableness I think coming from

18 the Department side is it is hard to say that -- you

19 know, this isn't the normal way we do things. This

20 isn't the normal way we operate. So a blanket

21 statement of "This is how we are going to operate is

22 hard for us." There are avenues that -- it may be
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

113

1 that we come ultimately after notice and comment or a

2 standard rulemaking and do our cost-benefit analysis

3 to the same conclusion, but then we have done it in a

4 manner that is consistent with the way we treat

5 certain other products that also have utility or

6 specific utilities for customer applications. So it

7 makes us comfortable, too.

8 MR. HURST: Thank you for the information.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: And it is not meant to say

10 do it tomorrow either. I mean, this allows a good bit

11 of time, a good bit of transition over time if there

12 is any transition that needs to happen, and allows you

13 guys to work with us continually to get that. I think

14 that's what our position is at this time.

15 MR. BARHYDT: One of the issues John raised

16 was data. And so the rulemaking process would give us

17 the opportunity to gather a lot more data and make us

18 a lot more comfortable with the ultimate approach.

19 And so the idea is that in the short term, we

20 understand how you have been doing business. And so

21 we can work with this. But over time, we just need

22 more data to feel comfortable with this approach. And
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

114

1 so in the context of a rulemaking, maybe we end up

2 here. Maybe we end up somewhere else, but at least at

3 the end of the day, the Department will have a greater

4 level of comfort.

5 MR. MANDYCK: Well, I think that is a

6 reasonable approach or, maybe stated another way, when

7 you go through this process, we will decide what is on

8 this list or what is not on this list. But when we

9 decide what's on the list, then we come to consensus

10 on it, that will be the de facto way of doing business

11 until you tell us otherwise, which may be through

12 rulemaking, for example, where you may go into the

13 coated coil issue and decide you may need to change

14 the test procedure for how the product is --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

16 MR. MANDYCK: -- tested with a coated coil.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, absolutely. I think

18 the idea here would be just to give you notice. We

19 just want to give you a sense that we are open to

20 dealing with it now. We are not trying to say

21 tomorrow you need to completely change your business,

22 but we would like to continue working through it to a
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

115

1 point where we are comfortable, too, and it fits a

2 little better with our regulatory process.

3 MR. SHEBIK: Ron Shebik, Hussmann. I think

4 I would like to ask, since you are in a process where

5 you are going to be thinking about this, don't

6 disrespect HVAC, CRE because we have very similar

7 situations that we told our customers, "No. We cannot

8 do that." A very good scenario that you can picture

9 is customers, cases that are normally designed to be

10 open cases, customers are now requesting doors be put

11 on those cases. And sometimes they want the premium

12 doors. They have heated glass and heated perimeters.

13 When you put a door, OEM, on a case, you change the

14 equipment classification. And when you put a door on

15 there that has heated glass and heated inserts, it

16 sometimes will not pass the DOE requirements. So we

17 have to tell the customer, "No." So their recourse is

18 that they have those doors installed in the field,

19 third party.

20 The end result is the case is much more

21 efficient with the doors on it, regardless of the heat

22 in the doors and the heated glass. It's just that it
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

116

1 won't pass the different energy requirement. So I

2 would much rather see those be done OEM than be done

3 as field retrofits. It just makes for a better case.

4 It makes more sense in the long run. So you guys keep

5 that in mind.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 MR. RIVEST: This would be a new product

8 class than it is today.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

10 MR. SHEBIK: No, it isn't.

11 MR. EISNER: Other questions or comments?

12 MR. MYERS: Frank Myers, PVI. This sounds

13 like a very reasonable approach. And one of the

14 things that I heard -- I'm not in this side of the

15 business, but one of the things I've heard is concerns

16 about the interaction of these different ones, some

17 increasing, some decreasing. So the combinations by

18 taking this approach, we address what we need to

19 address today, recognizing that, however complex or

20 not complex, you have the option of dealing with it in

21 the future. It seems reasonable.

22 MR. FLY: This is Mark Fly with AAON. In an
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

117

1 attempt to keep us moving into put some things to bed,

2 are there any things on this list that we have gone

3 through or are getting ready to go through? Can we

4 put "Yes," "No," or "Maybe," you know, from a

5 Department standpoint or a consensus standpoint

6 because I think economizers and ERVs, it sounded like

7 we were close to agreeing on, probably close, much

8 less so.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think generally that is

10 true. I don't know that we are ready to say, "Yes,"

11 "No," or "Maybe," specifically.

12 MR. FLY: Okay.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think one of the things we

14 want to do is take this list back and think about it,

15 but we do want to hear the explanation and the why

16 behind each of them.

17 MR. FLY: Okay.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So if we could run through

19 that real quick? I realize that, you know, we may

20 have some questions, but in terms of what is in and

21 what is out discussion, I am not sure that either side

22 is ready to say definitely, "Yes," "No," or "Maybe."
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

118

1 MR. RIVEST: In the description, maybe we

2 can think about when the long-term vision might be for

3 being on and off the list. Is it procedure fixed? Is

4 it new product class and to be defined?

5 MR. EISNER: Yes, Phil?

6 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. From my

7 perspective, from an innovation perspective, I would

8 really support this method, not just now but going

9 forward because Neil made an excellent point there.

10 Our basic model is out there that had very low

11 movements because when you are innovating, the first

12 time you put a product out there, it might not be

13 exactly what the market is looking for. So the

14 manufacturer will make small changes and have

15 derivative products based off that. And so the basic

16 model that we had listed might not be the one that has

17 the actual reports on an annual basis, but eventually

18 we get to the point where we get what the market is

19 expecting. So this process would come back to

20 innovation and ongoing changes with the market.

21 MR. EISNER: Other comments, thoughts?

22 Okay. Let's go back to the list and start
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

119

1 discussing what you think about each of the issues,

2 starting with I think hail guards.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Hail guards are commonly put

4 on or I should say common now. I don't know the

5 percentage, actually, but they are put on, obviously

6 protect against hail damage to the exposed fin stop.

7 MR. EISNER: What? To the exposed what

8 stop?

9 MALE SPEAKER: To the exposed fin stop.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Exposed fin stop to the --

11 because these are rooftop units. They are outside.

12 So depending on the design of those, they could

13 decrease the air flow through the condenser;

14 therefore, higher condenser fan wattages; therefore,

15 have an effect on the energy efficiency in EER at that

16 point, again commonly put on in the field, all

17 different kinds of versions of them. Some are less so

18 restrictive than others. It just depends on the

19 designs. You know, some competitors come already with

20 coil protections.

21 MR. THARP: And it saves energy in the long

22 run because it adds energy --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

120

1 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

2 MR. THARP: -- it does reduce air flow, but

3 after five years, if the coil is beat flat because of

4 hail, then it is not getting any air flow or very

5 minimal. It is one of those we believe in long term

6 for those applications or issues, it probably is a

7 wash or slightly less energy consumption overall.

8 MR. WHITWELL: And there is a complication,

9 too, because it is not just the hail coming down, but

10 it is hail bouncing off the roof, coming up.

11 MR. HURST: So, I mean, it is the same thing

12 as a grill on a car.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

14 MR. HURST: You can reduce the weight of the

15 automobile if you took the grill off the radiator, but

16 as bugs and rocks smash your radiator coil, it reduces

17 the efficiency of it. So it serves the purpose for

18 energy efficiency over the long haul.

19 MR. EISNER: Other information on that that

20 people want to provide? Any questions?

21 Next item on the list is dehumidification.

22 MR. THARP: Yes. And, again, these
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

121

1 components, there are a lot of different ways that it

2 can be provided, but the primary purpose is to

3 basically allow additional moisture removal from the

4 air, which in the long run allows a higher ambient,

5 the dry ball temperature to be run at. So the system

6 doesn't operate this long typically with the dehum

7 installed. So it may have to operate 30 minutes to

8 pull enough moisture out where you are comfortable at.

9 Like I said, it would be 3 degrees, but with the

10 dehum, you only have to operate 15 minutes to get it

11 down to 75 because you have enough moisture out where

12 you are comfortable. Those complements add a pressure

13 drop into the system --

14 MR. FLY: Reheat.

15 MR. THARP: -- and sometimes reheat. But,

16 again, in the long run, as applied, it typically --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: It is an energy management

18 scheme, and then it's --

19 MR. THARP: It is an energy management

20 scheme, yes.

21 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. One of the things I

22 think we have to keep in mind is that these are things
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

122

1 that the building owner needs to do anyway. So if he

2 is not going to do it through the rooftop or through

3 the HVAC equipment, they are going to have to add a

4 separate stand-alone dehumidification system to the

5 building, which has got to increase total energy usage

6 of it inspecting --

7 MR. FLY: I do not believe it is a regulated

8 product.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right, which right now

10 100 percent outside air systems are not a regulated

11 product. There is not even a test standard for them.

12 MR. RIVEST: Sorry. Can you describe a bit

13 more? Is this part of the arbitration system or --

14 MR. FLY: Well, I will give you two

15 examples. There are wet systems with a desiccant where

16 they basically have a little boiler and they boil

17 water out of aluminum chloride and they spray, spray,

18 like the old spray coils, and poured water. The other

19 one is what looks like a heat wheel. Only there will

20 be like a quarter section that they will run some

21 really high heat through, drive the moisture out of

22 that so the desiccant in that wheel is really dry when
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

123

1 it rotates over into the airstream that sucks the

2 moisture out. And those are two common types of

3 desiccant dehumidifiers that are out there.

4 It is an alternate to doing it with

5 refrigeration, which is what we are more used to doing

6 in standard air conditioning, where there is cooler

7 rundown. So you might use it in a high use. If this

8 conference room, if you wanted it to be a more

9 comfortable room without freezing everybody to death,

10 you know, to get the moisture out, you may have

11 dropped the temperature really low there. And if you

12 had dehumidifier in there, you wouldn't have to drop

13 the temperature as low to get the moisture out of

14 there.

15 They are again one of these kind of niche

16 markets, not use a whole lot of things but for --

17 especially for process loads. I put one in years ago

18 in a toner plant for Xerox because they have to run

19 ten percent relative humidity or all the toner clumps

20 together as part of the process.

21 MR. SACHS: In space conditioning, we are

22 starting to see a lot of exploration of innovative
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

124

1 approaches that may take the heat wheel and

2 incorporate it in the cycle in unusual ways. So it's

3 not a bolt on the front end; the Cromer cycle has got

4 some patent information on it and things like that.

5 It becomes a hard thing to take apart to disable that

6 unit.

7 MR. FLY: The other place you see it

8 commonly used is in grocery stores.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Grocery stores, yes.

10 MR. FLY: Because, you know, if you keep the

11 frost off the meat, they sell more meat.

12 MR. RIVEST: So it is sort of in the same

13 category as the heat pipes and the --

14 MR. FLY: It is kind of.

15 MR. SACHS: Yes.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: They are addressing a little

17 different, like you said, a little different, niche

18 and not so much just people comfort but other issues

19 that might be --

20 MR. RIVEST: Process.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: -- process, paper mills, --

22 MR. RIVEST: Right.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

125

1 MS. HOOTMAN: -- these things that have

2 things that are I won't say inducing more water into

3 the space in --

4 MR. RIVEST: I think more in terms of how

5 one would treat it going forward, it is not really a

6 test procedure issue. It is not a standard level

7 issue.

8 MR. FLY: It would have to be a different

9 product class --

10 MS. HOOTMAN: A different product class and

11 --

12 MR. FLY: -- class to be treated properly,

13 connected, and need its own testing. But, that being

14 said, if we throw it in our standard packaging, then

15 there is a hefty pressure drop in on the regenerative

16 side where they are blowing 400-degree air in one side

17 of that wheel, a lot of times that is putting the heat

18 back into the airstream, which then you have to run

19 your compressors harder to overcome. So the net

20 effect would be you would use more energy and could

21 throw you outside of the standards.

22 Now, that being said, if we don't sell it,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

126

1 then it's bolted as the next box on the roof standing

2 alone.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. There is a separate --

4 MR. FLY: So we haven't changed anything.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: They may just be systems, and

6 they're not HVAC systems in a way. They are not doing

7 all the heating, ventilating, and air conditioning,

8 just these systems.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. And then there is

10 another approach where it is incorporated in as part

11 of the refrigeration system, the cooling or heating in

12 the case of the cooling system. And it is an extra

13 additional coil that is in the airstream and can be --

14 you know, it actually could operate partly as an

15 evaporator, part as a condenser so that you are taking

16 additional moisture out of the air because part of the

17 issue is as our units become more efficient, the

18 sensible heat factor increases. So the system if it

19 is just the air conditioning unit system takes less

20 moisture out of the air. And so we have these

21 additional coils in there to help to take out more

22 moisture out of the air. So you have got this, it's
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

127

1 in the indoor airstream, that is additional pressure

2 drop. And so, although it is not in operation during

3 the test procedure. It's adding the pressure drop,

4 which does cause more fan power, which will impact the

5 rated EER billing.

6 MR. FLY: It may not necessarily rate it as

7 80.67.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. You don't need it at

9 80.67.

10 MR. THARP: And you get into a real-life

11 application if you are removing moisture before you

12 get to your evaporator coil. Your evaporator coil is

13 going to run at a higher evaporation temperature,

14 which lets the refrigeration system operate more

15 efficiently.

16 MR. EISNER: Other information? Questions?

17 Okay. The next one is indoor fan motor,

18 VFD.

19 MR. THARP: Variable frequency drive is

20 applied to a door motor that allows turndown of the

21 indoor air flow rate and reduces the indoor fan power

22 when you don't need it as much. If you have a two-
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

128

1 stage system, it allows you to run at a low air flow

2 rate on a low-stage or a multi-stage system, variable

3 speed system. And so it improves the seasonal part

4 load performance of the unit, but because the VFD

5 itself actually increases the power consumption at

6 full load, probably most single digit percentage-wise,

7 it hurts the test efficiency.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: And there is a heat factor

9 there, too.

10 MR. THARP: And spawn effect, yes.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Spawn effect. And then it's

12 in the space. It has heat, generates heat.

13 MR. RIVEST: Is this being looked at in the

14 test procedure?

15 MR. WHITWELL: Well, IEER, there are prongs

16 for this. I mean, this is where you get the benefit

17 of this, in an IEER.

18 MR. RIVEST: But not in an EER?

19 MR. WHITWELL: No.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is a near-term issue.

21 MR. RIVEST: Okay. So this could come off

22 the list at some point.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

129

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: If we happen to make a

2 migration to IEER.

3 MR. EISNER: Information or questions?

4 Okay. Condenser fan motors, options for

5 ducting?

6 MR. WHITWELL: We have a product that is

7 ducted both evaporator and condenser. And so we have

8 different fan motor options to handle different

9 applications where they might have different length

10 duct, indoor, from where the unit is to the outdoor.

11 Just like what we would have on the indoor fan motor,

12 where we have different fan motor options to deal with

13 different applications on this particular product, we

14 have different outdoor fan motor options to deal with

15 different application requirements.

16 MR. FLY: The current test procedure creates

17 the outdoor fan as basically being --

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. This is not covered in

19 the test procedure currently.

20 MR. FLY: So is the product there for this -

21 -

22 MR. WHITWELL: Pardon?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

130

1 MR. FLY: Is the product covered and

2 inspected on the --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just because it can't be

4 accounted for in the test procedure doesn't mean it's

5 not covered. It means that you may need a test

6 procedure waiver. I am not saying it is or it isn't

7 in this case. I don't know enough off the top. But

8 to the extent it needs a definition, like small

9 commercial package or large or very large, that is how

10 we determine coverage, based on our definitions. And

11 then, you know, to the extent it can't be tested by

12 the regulatory test procedure means that you need to

13 come get a waiver.

14 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. This particular product

15 could be covered in the vertical packaged equipment.

16 It could fall in there. We choose not to put it in

17 there. So we are actually measuring ourselves to a

18 higher energy efficiency standard than we could. We

19 could be going to the vertical packaged equipment,

20 which is a significantly lower energy efficiency

21 standard, but we are rating it with a standard outdoor

22 motor.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

131

1 MR. JOHNSON: This could also be an option,

2 maybe not adopted, but it could be an adoption for

3 sound attenuation on condenser fans, too.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, the reason why

5 you adopt outside air is several. One, buildings

6 inside, like a parking garage --

7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, you need to duct

9 that air outside and get fresh air because there is

10 not fresh air coming. So you have got to do something

11 with it. Gosh, I've got it even in my plant, where

12 I've got little suboffices within a plant that is 30

13 feet high. So there are different ways, you know, that

14 you are going to use that because of --

15 MR. FLY: Some high rise buildings where you

16 have mechanical floors --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

18 MR. FLY: -- every so many floors.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

20 MR. FLY: There are several things.

21 MR. EISNER: Anyone have additional

22 information or any questions?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

132

1 MR. STARR: So you are saying if you are

2 bringing in outside air to the unit, that is not

3 coming off of the louver?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: The ducting.

5 MR. STARR: But that is quite a few. It

6 seems like that might --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: You are ducting it to the

8 outside air, ducting it to outside air.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Right. Just talking about,

10 in our cases, we are talking about, low hundreds.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Oh, yes.

12 MR. FLY: The issue is that there may be

13 several different fan selections depending on --

14 MS. HOOTMAN: How much you can --

15 MR. FLY: -- the job requirements. And it

16 is not --

17 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. There are four or five

18 different motors that can be selected.

19 MR. FLY: So we are going to talk. I mean,

20 that is kind of like the same issue as the high static

21 indoor fan.

22 MR. WHITWELL: Exactly.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

133

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

2 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any more information or

3 questions about this?

4 Okay. Microsoft telling us hydronic is not

5 possible for some reason. Steam hydronic heat

6 options, increase cooling, electrical, et cetera.

7 MR. THARP: Basically you put a coil for a

8 heating mode in the airstream, increases the pressure

9 drop that the cooling has to operate against. So it

10 decreases the efficiency in the cooling mode. Those

11 types of options are a lot more energy efficiency in

12 the heating mode than the option of the other

13 alternative strip.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Electric heat.

15 MR. THARP: Electric heat.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Electric heat. We are using a

17 heating system which was electric resistance heat.

18 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, electric strip --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: And adding that steam and

20 hydronic --

21 MR. WHITWELL: Electric strip means electric

22 resistance here.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

134

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And so the steam and hot

2 water heat options that are being put in there are

3 more efficient, in more building efficiency, but there

4 is a net effect on the cooling side because they add

5 pressure drop, they add fan heat, and so on the

6 cooling side will actually drop your cooling

7 efficiency due to the fact that those options were --

8 MR. FLY: And the current standards address

9 electric heat, and they address gas heat. They do not

10 address hydronic heat.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So that is like the

12 standards maybe. I don't know.

13 MR. FLY: It seems to fit more like an

14 economizer.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the tit for tat like an

16 economizer.

17 MR. STARR: I mean, in reality, I am not so

18 sure more is efficient, but it is more of a utility if

19 you have -- you know, if you are infusing the hydronic

20 system, then you are bringing up hydronic coil in an

21 air handler. So it is more the factories meeting the

22 design application.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

135

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. But likely the design

2 was picked for hydronic for the fact that hydronic is

3 overall going to give them better efficiencies than

4 the choice that they could have had.

5 MR. THARP: Yes. I mean, keep in mind

6 electric is 100 percent efficient. So it just costs a

7 lot more to keep electric on. It's not so much it's

8 efficient.

9 MALE SPEAKER: Heat pumps are 300 percent

10 efficient.

11 MR. THARP: That is true.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Other information?

13 Other questions, any questions?

14 All right. That takes us to lower BTU gas

15 heat options.

16 MR. FLY: In reality, this probably belongs

17 in the bucket of decreased test energy because what

18 AAONians do is they will typically offer two or three

19 gas heat options and when we do our testing, we will

20 test with the most restrictive. So if we offer a 200,

21 300, 400, we will test with a 400, but then we also

22 offer a 300 and a 200, which reduces electrical
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

136

1 consumption on the boiler. But we rate them all the

2 same. That one really probably ought to be up in

3 this.

4 MALE SPEAKER: But that is not really

5 something we are asking for an exclusion.

6 MR. WHITWELL: No. It is a grouping that we

7 are --

8 MALE SPEAKER: It is a grouping.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: It is a grouping.

10 MALE SPEAKER: And part of this is just

11 showing --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

13 MALE SPEAKER: You don't care.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is going to be the most

15 expensive.

16 MR. THARP: We want to make sure that it is

17 out there that this is something that --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Appreciate it. No.

19 Explanations are very helpful, to say the least.

20 MR. EISNER: Any more on this one?

21 All right. That takes us to these:

22 increased test energy and increase supply of energy.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

137

1 The first one is hot gas reheat.

2 MR. FLY: Which we talk about there being a

3 notification. That is that report when it is put

4 downstream of the evaporator coil.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

6 MR. FLY: So as long as we have got them in

7 the right category, I am not sure that, you know -- it

8 is a dehumidification device.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Steam.

10 MR. FLY: Steam design. But it does add

11 pressure drop to the airstream and add pull load.

12 It's not running. So it doesn't do anything for your

13 efficiency. It is just adding extra pressure drop.

14 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else you want

15 to add? Questions?

16 High static indoor blowers, oversized

17 motors.

18 MR. JOHNSON: This is a good point that Mark

19 made earlier. There are some systems you talk -- you

20 mentioned the hospital application, where you run at

21 four inches of static. And building applications had

22 a huge range of static requirements. Manufacturers
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

138

1 will offer multiple blower options, oversized motors,

2 et cetera. And the base model may have a 5-horsepower

3 motor, but it could be offered even with a 30-

4 horsepower motor that is built for the indoor blower

5 to get to some very, very high -- that is very high

6 static applications.

7 MR. FLY: Okay. And that unit won't run

8 efficiently at the test failure conditions, and it is

9 possible that it won't run at all on advanced

10 lighting.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I actually -- you said it

12 won't run efficiently at those conditions, but if you

13 were to say test at the static that it was intended to

14 be used for -- I'm not saying that this is the right

15 approach, but would it run efficiently and be able to

16 meet the standards?

17 MR. FLY: It would run efficiently. It

18 probably would consume --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's still a lot.

20 MR. FLY: -- a lot more energy because it's,

21 you know --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: The wattage itself would?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

139

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: It still wouldn't be the

3 same?

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Probably, but I will go back

5 to not necessarily have the operating maps tested out

6 that

7 --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, yes. No.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: -- someone would have to

10 figure

11 --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is it purely a test

13 procedure model or is it a combination? And it seems

14 like it is pretty much a combination.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, right.

16 MR. FLY: I mean, it is really a rating

17 number problem in that that is not what the rating is

18 set at. That is not the standard condition.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And I can deal with

20 that. I could change the standard conditions for

21 this, but it still won't get you to --

22 MR. FLY: And then where are you going to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

140

1 put it at? Are you going to have one for one, two,

2 three, four, five, six?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You need to be a level 2.

4 That's what I'm trying to -- I mean, it's a twofold.

5 MR. WHITWELL: So maybe it's a new class:

6 high static application; right?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would have to define

8 what high static application is. So I think --

9 MR. WHITWELL: I understand.

10 MR. FLY: And just as a point of

11 information, if you go through the water source, heat

12 pump ISO standard, what it actually does is let you

13 run that fan at any static, but it normalizes it back

14 down --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We had talked about that.

16 MR. FLY: -- to the standard rating

17 conditions. So it kind of lets you put that 30-

18 horsepower motor in there, but it makes this huge

19 adjustment that breaks it out.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: What about something you

21 could do here?

22 MR. FLY: I think it could be done, but it
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

141

1 would take a lot of work?

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Theoretically it sounds like -

3 -

4 MR. FLY: Yes. It sounds like something we

5 could do. And it's not in the current --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That could be our goal over

7 time, perhaps.

8 MR. FLY: Perhaps, but we would need to

9 investigate.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Okay.

11 MR. FLY: We all would need to investigate.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Okay.

13 MR. EISNER: Other information? Questions?

14 All right. Parametric relief, powered

15 exhaust, powered return air.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: All different ways that you

17 deal with pressurization that happens within a

18 building. All of us go up to a building like this and

19 we pull open the doors. And they are either hard to

20 pull open or they are blowing open in our faces. And

21 that is all because there has been more air introduced

22 into the system, and it has to get out of the building
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

142

1 someway. One of the ways for that to happen is through

2 a system through our package units. And those are all

3 kinds of devices that are kind of around that.

4 MR. FLY: And they are kind of linked with

5 the economizer.

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

7 MR. FLY: They had to do with relieving air

8 on outside air and how much outside air the unit takes

9 in as part of its design. You may not need much if

10 it's a low strip center with very short ductwork, but

11 in a building like this, if you were --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Where you had bathroom exhaust

13 and all these other exhaust fans that are happening,

14 they are outside of the HVAC system. You had to deal

15 with that, the fact that there are all of these other

16 air ductions. So it is a building control system.

17 But if those devices are not energized within the

18 standard, test standard right now, they do cause that

19 pressure drop.

20 MR. WHITWELL: But, similar to other things,

21 if they weren't in this equipment, they would be

22 separate, stand-alone devices --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

143

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- that would be in the

3 building somewhere.

4 MR. AMRANE: Which would be --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Stand-alone some of them get

6 covered under the commercial blowers and fans

7 regulation.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: New one.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. So stand-alone, you

10 know, an exhaust fan, I would -- a new one would be

11 under --

12 Interesting, John.

13 MALE SPEAKER: I don't know what that was,

14 but I want to find it.

15 MR. EISNER: All right. Anything else on

16 this one?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: And, actually, probably fresh

18 air dampers in their metric relief really shouldn't be

19 together because then it's all still addressing the

20 outside air and relief. They are all addressing the

21 same situation.

22 MR. WHITWELL: And ventilation requirements,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

144

1 even without an economizer.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

3 MR. EISNER: High efficiency air filtration.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: So, just like Mark has

5 described, the hospital has all different kinds of

6 applications for filtration. Those options can range

7 from just a nice little higher grade than the bird

8 catcher, as some people call it, to we're taking out

9 diseases --

10 MR. FLY: Right.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: -- like in a hospital --

12 MR. FLY: Ninety-nine percent of the time.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: -- diseases and bacteria and

14 all that kind of stuff like that. They all introduce

15 pressure drop.

16 MR. FLY: Some of them a lot.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Some of them a heck of a lot,

18 back to the high static applications.

19 MR. RIVEST: You specify a standard basic --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that every unit

21 has just the standard basic --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I would say that every unit
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

145

1 has just the standard, you know, consideration for a

2 standard basic.

3 MR. FLY: It's a box.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Bird center. Small birds.

5 You could get ones about that big.

6 MR. EISNER: Anything else on this one? Hot

7 gas bypass?

8 MR. WHITWELL: That's --

9 MS. HOOTMAN: No, it's not.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Capacity? This is for

11 capacity control?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: This is capacity control. So

13 guess where we figured out that this has a lost energy

14 because of the pressure drop that it adds.

15 MR. STARR: It had more of an effect that

16 IEER is the leverage.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

18 MR. STARR: You are feeding gaps back that

19 we normally dump to the condenser you are feeding back

20 into the evaporator. So --

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. This is a hydration

22 cycle.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

146

1 MR. STARR: -- instead of throwing the heat

2 away or kicking it back in.

3 MR. FLY: But you are false loading the

4 evaluator.

5 MR. STARR: Yes. I mean, what it is really

6 doing is you are controlling your discharge air

7 temperature so that your supply air is going down the

8 ductwork so you don't lose control of your system down

9 there. You use typically smaller units.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. And the thing that I'm

11 saying is that at the test standard point, it probably

12 is not energized, but I guess you had it here because

13 it is adding a pressure drop. Those devices are

14 adding a pressure drop in the refrigeration system.

15 Okay. So there is not an air refrigeration

16 pressure drop. It's those devices, those valves that

17 are put in there would add pressure drop into the

18 refrigeration system.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: What are we talking about

20 here?

21 MR. THARP: Some of these units -- go back

22 to coated coil -- coated coils, coil is probably a low
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

147

1 single digit, maybe one percent system efficiency.

2 And that one may be even less.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, in the next two

4 weeks when you go to consider, I mean, think about

5 that because in some sense, you know, if there are

6 ones that are really small -- I won't say negligible,

7 but I realize the cumulative effects of. If there are

8 ones that are small in nature, you know, that we could

9 whittle down, I think that is a good place to start,

10 but I do realize the cumulative effects as they start

11 to add up.

12 MR. STARR: I think it is more at your part13 load values, it is where you would start to see you

14 are adding heat back in the system, but you are not

15 getting

16 --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

18 MR. STARR: The hot life passes you, just a

19 valve that opens or closes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which isn't so much an issue

21 now but could become an issue.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right. And it's really
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

148

1 stated here more for that added effect that we said,

2 you know.

3 MR. RIVEST: Would that benefit be captured

4 in a changed metric? What is the benefit?

5 MR. STARR: You know, the best way to do it

6 would have multiple stages of correction, rather than

7 dumping hot baths. I mean, the example would be you

8 drive around town and you need to slow down. So you

9 put on the brake at the same time, instead of laying

10 off the gas or, you know, a stage one would be where

11 you have a two-speed lawnmower: fast and slow. You

12 know, the more stages you have, that would be an

13 automatic transmission. So, really, the best way is

14 not --

15 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry. Just in terms of

16 A/C, what is the benefit to the consumer?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Before the days of multiple

18 compressor options and staging and compressors

19 because, really, those are new, this was a way that

20 you got the ability of the system to crank itself back

21 down. With a big compressor or a big circuit, it was

22 a way to get it to crank back down. So you think
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

149

1 about a theatre, and you had one rooftop unit. And it

2 is serving multiple theatres. And you all really only

3 have one movie going at that time. You really only

4 wanted part of the coil and part of the compressor to

5 really run that part. So this was a way that you kind

6 of use that. I would say in the future, it is going

7 to kind of probably die, but, yet, the replacement

8 business is out there. I am not quite sure --

9 MR. FLY: The other point that is getting

10 used a lot is in makeup air units, which are like --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, yes.

12 MR. FLY: -- covered product but, you know,

13 if you want 55-degree air and it's 56 outside and you

14 want to turn the compressor on and you need 1 degree,

15 then maybe if it's critical to you, that you will run

16 that compressor and --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

18 MR. FLY: -- offload 90 percent of it to get

19 10. And a lot of the compressor technologies have a

20 limit to how far they will turn down.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: There you go.

22 MR. STARR: 90.1 also limits how much you
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

150

1 can do to --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

3 MR. STARR: It is comparatively inefficient,

4 inefficient way of doing it. What I have seen out in

5 buildings is that you get a small unit. If you get to

6 small loads with very few people in the room, the

7 thing turns on and turns off. It turns on, and it

8 turns off. There is already a need for --

9 MR. FLY: That, too.

10 MR. STARR: So it cycles a lot, but it would

11 seem better if we could come up with a newer

12 technology that's not just dumping heat back in the

13 system to get the correct discharge air temperature by

14 staging your compressor --

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

16 MR. STARR: -- or having staged compressors.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: And I would agree, Louis, that

18 I think that there are ways we are going to move

19 towards that, but I still worry about the fact that we

20 have a huge industry. We are over 60 percent

21 replacement. And we have replace systems that were

22 designed this way to some extent unless they want to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

151

1 do major renovations to the zones and change the zones

2 and the way that the zones work.

3 MR. STARR: Don't they have to meet the new

4 code anyway?

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It's new construction,

6 ASHRAE's new construction. And it depends on what

7 state it is if they have said that major renovation is

8 under ASHRAE or not.

9 MR. STARR: That's true.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Some states are not.

11 MR. STARR: Yes. Hopefully one would be

12 redesigning their system to accommodate the new code,

13 but it depends on what size and how much equipment.

14 MR. FLY: It is a permanent load device.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: It is a permanent --

16 MR. FLY: It doesn't really have a big

17 effect on the load other than the pressure drop a --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: And I will say that it is

19 diminishing.

20 MR. STARR: Well, if it's not a full load

21 concern as far as the test procedure, then it doesn't

22 need to be up there; right?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

152

1 MR. FLY: The test procedure --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: But it has an effect on the

3 pressure drop.

4 MR. STARR: But that is very little; right?

5 I mean --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. In itself, it is. It is

7 that additive effect that we talked about that, you

8 know, had a hot gas reheat system on it, doesn't have

9 an economizer, dah dah dah this.

10 MR. STARR: Okay. So the --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: And now I am inching into my

12 five percent a lot.

13 MR. EISNER: Good. We have gone through

14 this one. Next issue, sound traps.

15 MR. FLY: Okay. This usually applies to

16 very large equipment. These are devices that

17 typically can be put in the duct or can be put inside

18 the unit. And that is a space design request from an

19 owner. And they are to reduce the sound coming from

20 the fans and anything else in the system so that the

21 system is quiet for like a conference room or

22 whatever.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

153

1 MS. HOOTMAN: You know, in the DOE Building

2 and you know how we hear all that --

3 MR. FLY: They need a sound trap.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It needs a sound trap on it.

5 MR. FLY: But they can have a significant

6 pressure drop, especially if they are doing a lot of

7 work.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Associated static pressure.

9 MR. FLY: The associated static pressure.

10 So as we were just going through the list of anything

11 we could think of that could possibly -- you don't see

12 them in five-ton units.

13 MR. STARR: Isn't the sound trap downstream

14 of the air handler, though? If it is in the air

15 handler, it is --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: It could be upstream or

17 downstream.

18 MR. JOHNSON: You have got to realize --

19 MR. STARR: That's expensive.

20 MR. JOHNSON: -- that the bigger you get,

21 the more flexible you get. Our customers would rather

22 have you put it in in a factory than put it in. You
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

154

1 are putting more and more of the mechanics in a box.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: You saw those.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any additional

4 information? Questions?

5 Fire slope isolation dampers?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Same kind of thing. They're

7 almost placed in kind of the same place in the

8 airstream. They can either be put -- these are always

9 going to be in a building, no question about it.

10 There are just some customers who ask us to put them

11 inside the unit, instead of inside the curve or inside

12 the ductwork, that is going to isolate the HVAC if it

13 were to have a problem in fire from the rest of the

14 building and/or schemes where you are pressurizing

15 parts of the building and other parts where there is

16 smoke so that you can keep smoke from other parts of

17 the building. There are all kinds of building schemes.

18 MR. FLY: Much of the unit is on common

19 ductwork. So they put dampers in there that normally

20 would be in the duct but maybe you're putting in in a

21 high-bay building and it's 30 feet to it and a damper

22 is a mechanical rise that needs service. So they
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

155

1 would like to move it up in the unit, where you can

2 open the door of the unit and actually service the

3 device. That's the reason we want them in our unit,

4 because it may not be accessible.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Easier to --

6 MR. FLY: But they do have a pressure drop

7 associated with them.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

9 MR. EISNER: Anything else?

10 UV lights?

11 MR. THARP: Indoor air quality, high

12 devices. They consume a fairly small quantity of

13 energy, have a very small pressure drop associated

14 with it. Again, that is a very -- hot gas bypass,

15 where it's very almost negligible at test conditions.

16 MR. FLY: That is getting into small units.

17 I am not sure that the electrical energy --

18 MR. STARR: Yes. If you drop down to --

19 MR. FLY: They're like a 40-watt bulbs. So

20 40 watts can make or break in a 3-ton unit.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: In 325 or 326, that can really

22 screw you up.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

156

1 MR. DOPPEL: But it helps keep the coils

2 clean so that they operate more efficiently.

3 MR. FLY: Kills mold and --

4 MR. WHITWELL: Kills molds and mildew.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: No more Legionnaire's disease

6 kind of thing.

7 MR. EISNER: Anything additional? Louis?

8 MR. STARR: Yes. I was just going to say I

9 think they left off blenders, which happens a lot in

10 custom units. You have to make them long and narrow.

11 So typically the package equipment, they won't --

12 MR. FLY: If we get it on our list, we won't

13 adopt the list. We can add it on our master list but

14 consolidate it.

15 MR. STARR: But it essentially mixes your

16 air so that you don't have --

17 MR. FLY: Right.

18 MR. STARR: -- a stratification across your

19 coil.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

21 MR. STARR: But in custom units, a lot of

22 times there's a pipe requirement because the buildings
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

157

1 you don't want to look over and see an air handler.

2 So they want to make them long. And so what happens

3 is you get these like pancake-looking-like units that

4 --

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Pancake ductwork?

6 MR. STARR: Similar. Yes. I don't know.

7 For the custom unit air handler guys that will have a

8 pressure drop, it is basically introduces pressure

9 drop so that the flow is even coming off of the

10 blender. And it seems --

11 MR. FLY: So the object is to mix cold,

12 typically cold, outside air with return air evenly.

13 MR. STARR: So you don't freeze the --

14 MR. FLY: It does not apply in our standard

15 test conditions, by the way, but it is a pressure drop

16 there.

17 MR. STARR: Yes. It will be in the unit,

18 and it will be an extra pressure drop like your

19 dampers thing.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. To be fair, the list

21 that we have that this came from was much longer than

22 this. And we tried to condense and pare it down. So
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

158

1 there are other things that probably need to be added

2 to this list from the big list that we had. I mean,

3 this was something that was done, finished up at 7:45

4 this morning. So there is more work that I think

5 that, you know, we need a little bit more time to come

6 up with a more exhaustive list.

7 MR. FLY: When we are getting input at 4:00

8 a.m.?

9 MR. WHITWELL: Yes, yes. It is not even on

10 this list.

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Ashley, I think you were

12 asking, so when we go and we update this list and we

13 work on it in the next two weeks, I don't know if we

14 put a -- I hate red, yellow, green things, but, you

15 know, something that says that it is a really, really

16 small effect to the system. Should we do some kind of

17 footnoting or something? I don't know if that helps.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that would be

19 helpful. I mean, I think to the extent, you know, to

20 get us to a comfortable level and really understand

21 how these things may impact, you know, you can put a

22 column that says, you know, "By themselves, small,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

159

1 medium, large, less than one percent," you know,

2 definitely more than five, whatever it is, and that

3 obviously -- you know, if there are some that were --

4 you know, obviously there are some on the list that I

5 think that it is going to be a no-brainer for everyone

6 around the table. There are others that we are going

7 to have to understand a little bit more to feel

8 comfortable as we work through the list. So the more

9 information you can provide, it is about magnitude or

10 which options are likely to be put together.

11 I mean, I realize that everything seems to

12 be, you know, we will put together all of these if the

13 customer really asks for them, but for us to

14 understand, you know, do these really -- you know, is

15 this typical kind of thing so we can just get a --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: So a more inclusion rate kind

17 of thing?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I mean, just so we can

19 --

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Inclusion rate or low

21 inclusion rate?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Get a sense of what is
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

160

1 really going on and how this really will impact, you

2 know, the statements going forward.

3 And then, you know, the third part of this

4 would be for those that are full-load issues but go

5 away with, you know, part-load issues or IEER issues,

6 that would be helpful to know. And then others,

7 obviously, we think are product class issues that we

8 would need to consider. And then we'll get you

9 started.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: And even though we've gone

11 through and said this all in words, do we need to go

12 back and kind of make a definition of all of those

13 words?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, we will have to come

15 up with a definitive, discrete explanation when we put

16 them in the right text. Now, if you guys want to take

17 a first shot of it, that would be absolutely

18 wonderful.

19 MR. FLY: We'll take a first shot at it.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: We'll take a first shot at it.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's probably better than

22 my first shot.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

161

1 MS. HOOTMAN: No offense.

2 MR. EISNER: So we don't want to go into

3 whether we want to add --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: But as distinct and as

5 discrete as possible. I mean, something like -- I'll

6 just give you an example.

7 MR. FLY: I mean, EFRI (ph)? Is that

8 obvious to you?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, that one is more

10 obvious than others. Condenser fan motor options.

11 What is that, really? You know, that could have, a

12 lot of things could have, fan motor options on the

13 condenser side. That one would need to be more

14 explicit or higher static indoor blowers, oversized

15 motors. I mean, what if something is shipped with

16 it's supposed to be -- the base model is supposed to

17 be shipped with a 10 but, instead, it is shipped with

18 11? Does that really qualify as a high static indoor

19 blowers, oversized motor category or are we really

20 talking about the cases where it needs to be like 15

21 or 20 or 30 or whatever? Do you see what I am saying?

22 I mean, that is where we will need to be able to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

162

1 definitively draw the line as to what is in and what

2 is out somehow just so, if nothing else, everyone is

3 doing somewhat of the same thing.

4 MR. EISNER: Do I understand we don't want

5 to get in to whether we should add something like

6 blenders? If you have blenders now, you will work on

7 that during the next two weeks?

8 MR. BARHYDT: If they want to supplement the

9 list.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. We know that there's

11 tuff that we didn't catch.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Anything else anybody

13 wants to talk about about this list?

14 All right. It's a quarter after 11:00. We

15 started at 8:00. Would people prefer to take an early

16 lunch or break around 12:00 or 12:30?

17 MS. HOOTMAN: What is the next subject?

18 MR. BARHYDT: We need to do this for other

19 products as well.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, we all know that

21 we didn't do water source.

22 MR. EISNER: Water source. We haven't done
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

163

1 that yet.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: And we have agreed that the

3 basic model definition could stay for water heaters

4 and boilers and that I don't know if there is anything

5 we need to discuss with CRE other than initially, it

6 was keep the basic model definition if there is

7 anything else. I don't know what we are coming back

8 to.

9 MR. AMRANE: As mentioned by Ron before,

10 there might be a list of options like this that would

11 have to be added to the definition of basic model as

12 well.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, some of them are

14 explicitly addressed by product classes now. So you

15 have got to be careful there. You know, the one he --

16 opened versus closed, I mean, that is explicitly

17 addressed. To the extent somebody is adding an

18 accessory in the field, you know, that is an issue we

19 are aware of and we know we have to deal with. To the

20 extent somebody is shipping an open case with doors as

21 an accessory from the point of manufacture, that is

22 also an issue that we know we have to deal with, but
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

164

1 to say that it should be excluded, I don't know

2 because we have explicitly addressed that issue

3 through the product class structure NRX.

4 MR. AMRANE: That might go to --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. And that's okay.

6 You guys are welcome to talk.

7 MR. AMRANE: Right.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: But, you know, we are in

9 this situation for a lot of these because we haven't

10 addressed them through our typical regulatory

11 structure. And our commitment is to do so over time.

12 MR. SACHS: In terms of your logistics

13 question, sending people off to lunch before 11:45 is

14 likely to have shorter lines and less --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes. Let's go down.

16 And other reasons.

17 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. We did

18 talk about yesterday -- and it seemed like it wasn't

19 meant to be -- basic model definition for the furnace.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes. We should deal

21 with that. So, I mean, I think we come back and

22 square away what I have coined our next steps are with
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

165

1 basic model. If we need to revisit any of the AEDM

2 consensus stuff in light of our discussions today with

3 the count we were going for because we would like to

4 get AEDMs as squared away as possible so it can --

5 ASRAC is meeting in June. So it can go to ASRAC to

6 move that process forward. So as much of that as we

7 can get comfortable squaring away? So maybe that is

8 what, we try to just tie up some loose ends this

9 afternoon if that is okay.

10 MR. EISNER: Do you want to break now, then?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: Okay. Let's be back at about

13 20 after 12:00.

14 (Whereupon, the meeting was recessed

15 from 11:19 a.m. until 12:26 p.m.)

16 MR. EISNER: About time we got started.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So there was a request that

18 we at least entertain some discussion around basic

19 model concepts and commercial refrigeration. So I say

20 we do that first. So we dealt with this. DOE, you

21 guys were all going to go out, think about it, come

22 back in a couple of weeks. And you guys just all
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

166

1 discussed it.

2 I'm going to turn it over to Ron because you

3 are the one who reports it. I don't know exactly what

4 you want to talk about, but --

5 MR. SHEBIK: Let's take a couple of

6 questions. I don't know. Charlie, do you or Mary or,

7 Jeff, do you have any questions on anything?

8 MR. HON: Basically, I looked at what they

9 presented yesterday as a basic model and no problem

10 for us.

11 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. I agree. As far as

12 definition the way it is laid out as far as the three

13 tiers, I am fine with that. The question I have is --

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Three tiers usually not.

15 MR. SHEBIK: I call them tiers.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Tiers.

17 MR. SHEBIK: The setup is small group18 certified basic model, and certified individual model,

19 three different levels you have? And you could

20 certify?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, because those are the

22 three options of what's around today. So we would
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

167

1 just be going to -- well, you could still do the basic

2 model going into individual modeling. So for this

3 one, right, the difference here would be the

4 difference between I think basic model group or DOE's

5 basic model. They have to have the same certified

6 efficiency; right?

7 I mean, to the extent -- this is what we

8 see. We see basic model groups, as you guys currently,

9 I think, understand or as we understand what you guys

10 currently implement as being kind of part of AEDM. So

11 you can come up with the ratings. You can group out

12 or however you want to do that, but once you get to a

13 certification for the purpose of certification, you

14 will then group individual models or certify

15 individual models however you may choose as long as

16 they have common efficiencies, less capacity features.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So that is two levels,

18 not three.

19 MR. HON: I'm assuming that we are just

20 listing the single model worst case scenario.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, yes, absolutely. You

22 don't have to list the individual models, but you
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

168

1 could.

2 MR. SHEBIK: And we try this. That would be

3 an example of a certified basic model.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That would be individual

5 model, yes.

6 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Basic model could be five

8 individual models.

9 MR. SHEBIK: Oh, no. I am saying you would

10 list it, list one case as being the worst, your

11 highest. But you may have other, like the same case

12 model with different efficiencies that are higher

13 efficiency, but they would still be grouped under that

14 one --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you don't want to claim

16 them, you don't want to make claims of the more

17 efficient representations, either in your literature

18 or for ENERGY STAR, for anything else.

19 Yes?

20 MR. HON: Go ahead.

21 MR. STEPHENS: Go ahead.

22 MR. HON: You just mentioned something. I
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

169

1 think that may span a lot of differences. The numbers

2 that we print on DOE's efficiency base in our

3 literature, are they related?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think so.

5 MR. HON: That's all I want to know.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: ENERGY STAR, any public

7 disclosures.

8 MR. HON: Okay because there are all kinds

9 of issues right now between Natural Resources Canada

10 and ENERGY STAR publications being different. There

11 are lots of problems there.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: They should all be the same.

13 MR. HON: I know.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I have no doubt.

15 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. By

16 definition of the way ENERGY STAR is wanting us to do

17 it, they can't be the same. They want specific test

18 reports and taking the average of a test report. And

19 it gets --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are not for water

21 heaters because I wrote that part of the --

22 MR. STEPHENS: For commercial water heaters?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

170

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, I did. We can talk.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Because I am --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you are looking at the

4 person who actually wrote that language.

5 MR. STEPHENS: Because I am going to turn

6 around and look at somebody else in the room because I

7 am taking my guidance from them.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We should talk. I don't

9 know exactly what, but in terms of how a unit is

10 tested, how the rating is derived, how the standpoint

11 procedures work, they are identical to DOE's. And the

12 reason for that is so that you can use the same

13 testing, you don't have to do testing twice. The

14 rating comes out with the same number.

15 Now, in terms of verification, it is a

16 different issue. But in terms of your initial product

17 listing, it should be exactly the same for the

18 regulatory products. And we're getting there for all

19 of them except for we are not there for CRE yet.

20 It's open now.

21 But yes. So we can talk in terms of if you

22 think there is a misunderstanding because I did write
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

171

1 that part for the residential and commercial.

2 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. I will call them and I

3 will talk to them if I go there next week.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, Frank, I will see

5 an email from you next week.

6 MR. HON: The problem is with EPA, not

7 between you and I.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am guessing, though, that

9 you will go to EPA and it will somehow come back.

10 So we can do this dual front here.

11 MR. EISNER: But it is your understanding

12 that EPA is requiring you to list a higher number,

13 higher efficiency than you would list for DOE and then

14 you don't want to?

15 MR. STEPHENS: I don't know if it's --

16 MR. EISNER: You don't know if it's true?

17 That's what you're --

18 MR. STEPHENS: -- higher or lower. I know

19 it is different.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: It should not be different.

21 Like I said, you know, for covered products where DOE

22 regulations are in place, which are all the commercial
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

172

1 water heaters you are talking about, it has to be

2 identical. So they don't do the single unit, no

3 tolerance recovery, but it's the two or more, yes,

4 they are about to use the third party route or the

5 manufacturer-witness testing route, which DOE does not

6 require, but that, in and of itself, can be used for

7 DOE certification purposes. So that is the data you

8 would use unless you just wanted to do more testing

9 for ratings purposes. So if there is a

10 misunderstanding there, let me know.

11 MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Thank you.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Back to CRE.

13 MR. BAUMAN: Can I go through a scenario

14 just where somebody might use an AEDM or not use an

15 AEDM for particular models? If you talk about one

16 product category, self-contained, meaning a type of

17 refrigerator, can have one section, two sections,

18 three sections, they would be in the same basic model

19 group, not the same certified basic model, obviously,

20 but they would be in the same basic model group?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is up to you; right? I

22 mean, once you have -- I will use validate. Once you
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

173

1 have validated your AEDM by getting the minimum number

2 of tests in each class, you are going to actually be

3 able to apply it --

4 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- however you may want.

6 Now, that being said, if we pick a unit and it is

7 outside of tolerance, it didn't --

8 MR. BAUMAN: Then you are all --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: But once you have done that

10 requirement, you have maintained the data, you have

11 that -- you know, it is up to you how you apply your

12 single AEDM, your multiple AEDM, so all the other

13 products that you have.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Okay.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the whole premise

16 behind it.

17 MR. BAUMAN: All right. Yes, because I was

18 just trying to say your --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean --

20 MR. BAUMAN: -- platform really becomes what

21 the groups have already broken down here basically,

22 self-contained mode?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

174

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. However you want to do

2 it, yes.

3 MR. BAUMAN: Okay. Thank you.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

5 MR. HON: One clarity. After the

6 discussions this morning, there is a different thought

7 pattern in the large-scale air conditioner systems.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

9 MR. HON: But you are effectively saying

10 worst-case scenario?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: For you guys, correct. That

12 is the way we are setting this up, yes. If you group

13 models, you know, your rating needs to be the worst14 case scenario unless it's explicitly not in the CRE

15 test procedure.

16 MR. BAUMAN: Once you get to the certified

17 basic model?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

19 MR. BAUMAN: Right.

20 MR. SHEBIK: You can't have, then, two

21 companies. One company does a grouping, you know,

22 using the worst-case criteria. They have 500 models.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

175

1 And the other one does every single model because they

2 want to claim the efficiency for every single model

3 they produce. They have got 500,000 levels.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is okay. That is why

5 we need to do this.

6 MR. SHEBIK: So DOE isn't going to initially

7 have two companies, especially if they make the same

8 kind of case, same kind of product, but they're going

9 to have two different energy ratings and a message

10 that goes out to the customer in the field that is

11 going to be misconstrued because the customer feels it

12 isn't going to -- company A and company B have the

13 exact same case, you know, essentially. Yet, you are

14 going to have one that is ten kilowatt hours and one

15 that is seven kilowatt hours because of lighting

16 changes. That is not your concern at all; right? So

17 how --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you want to

19 conservatively rate, you always can under our regs. I

20 mean, some people are going to opt to conservatively

21 rate for a number of different reasons; right, whether

22 they don't want to claim, you know, discrete ratings
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

176

1 for high- efficiency options. I am assuming that if a

2 customer wants -- you know, if there is enough demand

3 in the marketplace for a certain technology or

4 differentiation of that technology, you guys are going

5 to do it. If you start doing it in your marketing

6 material through AHRI, or anywhere else for that

7 matter, you have to do it through here.

8 MR. EISNER: Presumably the company is going

9 to save money by grouping models and be able to sell

10 their product for lot more money. I mean, doesn't it

11 work both ways?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: It goes both ways, right,

13 because if we test a single model in that grouping

14 that you have come up with in the basic model and we

15 find an invalid rating or a failure, it affects all

16 the rest of them.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Everything is going to be

18 grouped under that amount, right.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I mean, we assume that

20 you guys are in the best position to weight these

21 risks and know your products the best and know your

22 AEDMs. I don't think we can dictate. So I think,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

177

1 from our perspective, giving you as much flexibility

2 as possible is what we are trying to do.

3 MR. SHEBIK: Yes. I understand.

4 MR. HON: We are going to be rating units by

5 our own standards because we look at them and say,

6 "Okay. This I'm going to apply an AEDM to because

7 it's a low-volume, low-exposure." I have a high8 volume, send thousands and thousands of that

9 particular unit. I still am not going to leave that

10 for ultimate exposure. I am going to list that as a

11 single unit tested to avoid any risk factors.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: You mean your --

13 MS. BARHYDT: Single unit or single model?

14 MR. HON: Single model in itself.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Yes, yes.

16 MR. HON: And, as such, my point is the

17 numbers -- ENERGY STAR is involved in Air Canada.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

19 MR. HON: California.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. It goes on and on.

21 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So now go back to the

22 two companies, the two companies in the example I
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

178

1 have. Okay. They send you guys a certification. Here

2 are our certified numbers. It is our energy

3 consumption for our basic model company versus

4 certified individual model company. What is

5 distributing commerce? Because now when you market

6 these cases to your customer, "Okay. We gave you" --

7 I won't say, "We." I will say the customer. The

8 company gave you guys, the company gave you guys

9 numbers for certification. But they are going to call

10 the customer, "Here is what our case really does." I

11 mean, it may run ten kilowatt hours, but that is what

12 the fluorescent lighting and the --

13 MS. BARHYDT: No. You can't the Department

14 one number and tell consumers another number. You get

15 one number.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Take your option.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. So how do you control

18 that? How would DOE control that? How are you going

19 to know what the company --

20 MR. RIVEST: You tell us.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Well, I mean, we go on

22 websites. We look and see what people are advertising.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

179

1 Sometimes competitors send us quote sheets that they

2 got from competitors they have quoted ratings on it.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Sometimes consumers come in.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And ask about it.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not uncommon.

6 MS. BARHYDT: I mean, we get information

7 from a variety of sources.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay. I am just making sure

9 there is some structural balance in that.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

11 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

12 MR. EISNER: Charlie?

13 MR. HON: On one comment that you just made,

14 I want to clarify. Enter into commerce.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

16 MR. HON: We ship a lot of product for

17 export. It is not designed to deal with any testing we

18 have today.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Slap that label on it.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

21 MR. SHEBIK: Not for sale or for use in the

22 U.S.?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

180

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not for sale or for use, for

2 export only, whatever it is.

3 MR. HON: Okay. That's fine. Okay.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Make sure that label is on

5 there. Yes.

6 MR. HON: Okay.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Very clear. There are

8 specific words enclosed in the CFR. And they seem

9 really strange, but I was told that is what they have

10 to be by my legal counsel.

11 MR. HON: Yes.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I tried to change the --

13 MR. HON: That is why I directed the

14 question to legal counsel, so I could verify that,

15 being an attorney, she would be forced to give me a

16 legal definition.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. It is like

18 discrete wording.

19 MR. HON: Okay.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: I had another question in

21 distributing commerce.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is like one of the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

181

1 things we are kind of on the list to --

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- deal with in terms of

4 especially like one-offs but --

5 MS. BARHYDT: So what does distribution in

6 commerce mean?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

8 MS. BARHYDT: But I think the real issue for

9 you guys is, when do I have to certify? And for other

10 products, it is before distribution in commerce. With

11 the one-offs, depending on how we end up figuring out

12 what actually has to be certified, when to certify is

13 open to negotiation.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. And, I mean, I am

15 making another generalization. In development, we are

16 still developing stuff. We are shipping it from our

17 plant to La Crosse, Wisconsin to be tested or

18 wherever. I mean, it may have a model number, but it

19 is still in development. That is not considered in

20 commerce; right? It is going across state lines, I

21 guess. And I think of transport across state lines.

22 MS. BARHYDT: In our CCE rule, the March 7,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

182

1 2011 rule, in that rule, we talk about distribution in

2 commerce and we talk about products that are still

3 under development, products being imported for

4 research and development, that sort of thing, that

5 that is not a production unit being distributed in

6 commerce.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. Yes.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Take a look at that language

9 before we get there.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: The 2007 one?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Two thousand eleven.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two thousand eleven.

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Oh, okay.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: The basic model one.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: That I know. Yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So take a look at that,

18 though, in case there are more clarifications or

19 questions you may have with respect to that. And then

20 obviously we know we need to get to the build-to-order

21 custom design, at what point do I certify, what does

22 that actually mean. That is on the table here still.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

183

1 MR. EISNER: Do you have more?

2 MR. SHEBIK: My next question was custom

3 order, but you guys said you are going to be looking

4 at that. It is going to be --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: One of these days, yes.

6 MR. SHEBIK: Just because you may only build

7 one and never look at it again.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

9 MR. SHEBIK: So I guess the last question, I

10 don't know if I read this thing. I heard you telling

11 the HVAC people. You mentioned if there is a model

12 that is not covered, that you have to petition a

13 waiver?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not if it's not covered. We

15 determine coverage by the definitions, not

16 applicability of a test procedure or a standard.

17 MR. SHEBIK: Well, using CRE as an example,

18 if there is no equipment classification for that

19 model, will we be called --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hold on one second. So it

21 very well could be a covered product if it falls

22 within a given equipment class and it has standards,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

184

1 but if the test procedure can't account for it, then

2 you need a test procedure waiver. If it meets the

3 definition, it is covered, but if it doesn't have an

4 applicable equipment class, then it is covered but not

5 subject to testing and standard regulations at this

6 time. It could be subject to them in the future, but

7 it is not at this time.

8 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So coverage for us is

10 dependent upon the regulatory and statutory

11 definitions themselves. And just because something is

12 covered doesn't mean it is subject to testing or

13 standards. Obviously if it does not meet the

14 definition, it is not covered and not subject to

15 anything.

16 MR. SHEBIK: Okay.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: But just because you can't

18 test it or you don't believe the test procedure

19 accurately reflects the measures of consumption does

20 not mean you are exempt from the standard.

21 MR. HON: Example of that probably would be

22 like our ice. Again, they are designed to be
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

185

1 operating in the below 20-degree range.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

3 MR. HON: It is not a refrigerator. It

4 cannot be dropped down to zero degrees Fahrenheit to

5 test, and it doesn't meet the standards.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: You need a waiver.

7 MR. HON: So I need a waiver for ice?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Or flour, flour for this or

9 wine. Yes.

10 MR. HON: Yes.

11 MR. SHEBIK: For example, I was thinking of

12 one refrigerator --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: My favorite topic.

14 MR. SHEBIK: Is Charlie here?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: No, Charlie is not here.

16 MR. SHEBIK: He actually used that language

17 that you said, if it's not covered at this time. So,

18 again, it's something that is current --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not subject --

20 MS. BARHYDT: Not subject to standards.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not subject to standards at

22 this time.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

186

1 MR. SHEBIK: There is no testing performance

2 requirement?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

4 MR. SHEBIK: So, really, at that point,

5 there is really nothing we can do with that type of

6 product. We can't test it and give you SA numbers

7 because there are really no numbers you've --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: You don't need to.

9 MS. BARHYDT: You don't need to.

10 MR. SHEBIK: Right.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can go forth with your

12 business without us.

13 MR. STANONIK: You can test it any way you

14 want and claim any --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can petition us to do a

16 rule for it if you really want to.

17 MR. STANONIK: You have nothing to work on.

18 I am just going to go with that.

19 MALE SPEAKER: Frank, there is a better way

20 to put that.

21 MR. STANONIK: Yes. I like that.

22 MALE SPEAKER: There is a test standard for
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

187

1 the California --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We will have a

3 regulatory one. That's fine.

4 MR. SHEBIK: I am not talking about them. I

5 know they have got their own thing out there.

6 MR. HON: Just don't have all your products

7 falling in that category.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. Don't call them all

9 in one place because something tells me we may not

10 agree with that.

11 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, HTP. This

12 is right up our alley.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

14 MR. STEPHENS: Jeff had mentioned, I think,

15 at our last meeting and I think every manufacturer has

16 looked at combining different products together to

17 meet a different need a different way. How do we

18 proceed with that kind of option? Because there's

19 more than one test method that it fits.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is like becoming my new

21 basic model issue. Combination of plans. So I'm

22 going to say it depends. I don't have a straight off
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

188

1 answer for you in terms of across-the-board

2 applicability. We had discussions around something

3 that is a battery charger, a microwave, and a fridge

4 all in one.

5 We have had discussions of something that is

6 an air conditioner and a water heater in one. We have

7 had discussions of boilers and water heaters. So

8 there's not a whole -- the way our regs are set up is

9 by discrete covered products.

10 So if something is functioning as a water

11 heater and a heating appliance, it could be subject to

12 the heating appliance standards and the water heater

13 standards, could be. I am not saying definitively it

14 is because there were certain circumstances where we

15 have given test procedure waivers as well as for those

16 types of appliances. And a lot of them will need a

17 test procedure waiver to deal with.

18 But the first step would be to approach the

19 Department with the specifics of the situation because

20 we are going to have to -- just, unfortunately, with

21 all of the variations that I have seen in the past

22 like two months since the Department has been
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

189

1 clarifying its position that because you can't be

2 tested doesn't mean you are not covered, you know,

3 means that we are going to have to work toward it with

4 you. And there is this world of combination

5 appliances and what do we do with them more broadly

6 that we have been discussing internally.

7 You guys could just make simpler things

8 here. It would go easier for us.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Do you want to try to go into

10 the outside area in that way?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can explain. I think I

12 know where you are going here, but you can explain.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: All right. So I asked Ashley

14 a question about a product that I am confused whether

15 it is covered or not. And that is condensing units by

16 themselves. We make a commercial condensed unit that

17 we never portray ratings. It is never matched with an

18 air handler. So there is no way to have a match

19 rating with an air-moving device, but it gets matched

20 in the field with my competitors' products and

21 existing products and things like that.

22 The only AHRI test standard that covers it
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

190

1 is AHRI 365, which is a condensed unit-only

2 performance, 95 degrees, outdoors in the 45-degree

3 section. And I will kind of know where you portrayed

4 in a --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I don't have a

6 definitive -- we have been talking about this since

7 your email. I don't have a definitive answer for you.

8 How do you distinguish? Is it a completely different

9 design? I mean, I am trying to learn more. Is it a

10 completely different design from a condenser unit you

11 would pair as a split system?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: In this case, it is, at least

13 myself.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, is that true across

15 the board? I mean, is there a clear way to

16 distinguish between a condensing unit just sold as a

17 condensing unit versus the one that may be sold as a

18 split system?

19 MR. FLY: It is always going in some kind of

20 split system.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was not a part of that.

22 At the point of manufacture, you know, a unit that
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

191

1 sold just as a condenser unit versus a unit that sold

2 potentially as a split system from the point of

3 manufacture.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: It never showed as match

5 ratings.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: But that same condensing

7 unit you don't ever sell as a matched rating as an

8 option?

9 MS. HOOTMAN: No.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: No one else does?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just talking about the one

12 I have. That's all I have.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. You do?

14 MR. JOHNSON: Some of our condensing units

15 we match up with and use in our package documents. We

16 split those out in some of the condensing units.

17 Others are stand-alone. We don't match them with

18 anything. So it's a mixed bag.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: How do you distinguish?

20 MS. HOOTMAN: This is our 2420 here.

21 MR. JOHNSON: Right, right.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: It happens to be a derivative
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

192

1 of the package design where we take off this here. It

2 does have some other controls to it. So you can't

3 just

4 --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: How would you tell?

6 MR. JOHNSON: Multiple programs. That

7 happens, too.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I literally don't know

9 where it is going out the door. I don't know what --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, for example, you are

11 saying some of them are different and some of them you

12 sell with your packets here?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

14 MR. JOHNSON: Why --

15 MR. WHITWELL: We don't match them with

16 anything.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why are they different? Why

18 are they the same? How would you tell one that's --

19 so if I walked into your facility and I'm like -- how

20 would I know that one is for condensing unit-only

21 sales versus that one is for split systems.

22 MR. JOHNSON: Model number.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

193

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Split system model number.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, right. I get that,

3 but you have made the distinction. But is there any

4 physical distinction? Is there any specific thing

5 that needs to be in the unit?

6 MR. JOHNSON: There's no air handler

7 attached to it.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: I got that part.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.

10 MR. FLY: I mean, I think what you are

11 getting at is in our case, whether I sell it as a

12 matched set or sell it matched with a Trane unit, it's

13 the same unit.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. That is what I'm

15 getting at.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: But nowhere do we portray a

17 rating for that.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. So I get

19 the part where nowhere do you now portray a rating.

20 The question about whether you should or whether we

21 need to -- obviously we need to deal with the issue,

22 but how we deal with the issue, I mean, right now I
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

194

1 see this as like an ICM issue for residential; right,

2 obviously on a different scale --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Completely CADI (ph).

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you see how we treat

5 those. They are not covered. They have to be rated.

6 They have to be certified. It is a matter of maybe

7 that model doesn't fit the commercial world, but I am

8 trying to say that is what we know. So our

9 regulations are built around the system. And I don't

10 think just because you are making a condensing unit --

11 this is not a definitive statement for the position of

12 the Department, but my initial reading, you are not

13 excluded from that definition. The definition of

14 commercial air conditioner is very broad.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

16 MR. AMRANE: I don't agree with that because

17 if Congress wanted to include this product in 19.92,

18 they would have included this product in the list.

19 And this product was in 19.1 forever.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

21 MR. AMRANE: And they were not included

22 specifically because --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

195

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Whether or not they have to

2 be tested and whether or not there are standards are

3 different. The definition is very broad. It is

4 encompassing of it. Now, whether or not and how we

5 deal with them is a different issue. So I think it's

6 - - you know, that is what I am just trying to

7 understand. I mean, I don't know what you guys do

8 today. You don't list them at all; right? You don't;

9 right?

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. There's no --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: To us, it's like how do you

12 distinguish something that is just sold as that versus

13 something that is sold as a split or a package system

14 and doesn't need to be rated? Could somebody just

15 say, "I am doing all of these"?

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe a little history of

17 where they came from. You know, way before packaging

18 was even considered, everyone built up their own

19 systems. And this is where they kind of come from.

20 They come from a buildup system, an engineer who wants

21 to design it any which way he wants to and he picks

22 this and this and this and this. And the packaging
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

196

1 really evolved from "Oh, since you're going to make

2 this, you know, every single time kind of this way,

3 why can't you package that all for me and send it down

4 the line and give it to us already off the package?"

5 Well, those never cover all the applications, just

6 like we --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Of course not.

8 MS. HOOTMAN: -- have talked about, even in

9 all of those combinations. So, you know, they get

10 matched with, you know, rooftop air handlers, custom

11 air handlers, all different kinds of things. Even,

12 like I said, my competitors were even just air

13 handling-only manufacturers, kind of like an ICM, kind

14 of like that, where they are air handler, custom air

15 handler/owner manufacturers. And they are meant for

16 performances that, you know, when we are talking about

17 sensible heat ratio and things like that and the

18 package units, it is still defined by that casing and

19 how far we can go in that casing. And sometimes these

20 are getting, you know, huge demagnifications or

21 something like that, you know, picked for those kinds

22 of things. And that's kind of the old way of doing
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

197

1 things, in a way. There are still pockets of the

2 country that kind of prefer those for their

3 applications. So that is why they are still around.

4 They are not compared to the other. I mean, it is an

5 80/20 kind of rule.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Eighty percent are package

8 units, and the 80 percent are the standards.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- I recognize an issue

10 because I am just not sure exactly how it fits in our

11 regs at this point and exactly what we do to --

12 MS. HOOTMAN: So is that a waiver from it

13 because there is not a test standard to even say it is

14 a waiver, though?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the first thing would be

16 if we decide a) it's covered, it definitively means

17 the definition would be is it subject to the existing

18 standards? And it could be that we say no, in which

19 case there is no testing or standard required at this

20 point in time. But that means if you do have coverage

21 over it, we could do something in the future on it if

22 we found the need to or desire to or it may just be we
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

198

1 leave it alone.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

3 MR. AMRANE: There is an efficiency in the

4 national components. It has been there forever.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. You're right. It has.

6 MR. AMRANE: And this is to --

7 MS. HOOTMAN: And it's at the AHRI 365 that

8 we

9 --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So, I mean, I don't

11 know. Like I said, I don't know how we reconcile

12 that, we realize. If you have any ideas, you see our

13 model that we have set up for residential. And while

14 you may argue that one is not the best model either, I

15 mean, it is not applicable at all to commercial, but

16 we definitely told them they are on the hook.

17 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, you know, keep that in

19 mind. If you have any ideas, you know, we are open

20 here.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. I mean, there is a

22 group. In residential, there are a lot more programs
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

199

1 that show how to cross-plot that --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: There is engineering going.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: It cross-plots.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part.

7 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA.

8 Generally, doesn't the sales rep -- you tell them what

9 your load is and they match up the coil with you? You

10 tell them what you need for evaporator capacity and

11 they size up based on what will get you the design

12 requirements you need. And so usually the equipment

13 manufacturer that you are selecting gives you the

14 selection and you throw it down in their schedule?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: No. We don't give them

16 anything. All we give them is "Here is the condensing

17 curve of this unit, Mr. Engineer. Mr. Engineer, you

18 sit and cross-plot that to whatever you want to. And

19 it can be a lot of different things. You cross-plot

20 this refrigeration curve with that refrigeration

21 curve. And you figure out where your unique level

22 was."
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

200

1 MR. STARR: It sounds like a test procedure.

2 MS. HOOTMAN: It's the old way we were all

3 taught where we want to go and how to design these

4 things. Some of us used slide rules in college.

5 MR. STARR: What?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

7 MR. STARR: I've heard of those.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Any more questions?

9 MR. EISNER: We do have a question from

10 Massoud Neshan. Massoud, are you on the phone line?

11 MR. NESHAN: Can you hear me?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can.

13 MR. NESHAN: Can you hear me?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can. Go ahead.

15 MR. NESHAN: Okay. I have a question.

16 Earlier in an answer to a question, someone from DOE

17 said that the numbers that are in our catalog match

18 what is given to DOE. Is that correct?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. That's correct.

20 MR. NESHAN: Yes. It was just a question.

21 We manufacture commercial equipment. When we test it

22 with DOE's manual, it is a specific degree product.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

201

1 When we test it to NSF, it is less than a 41-degree

2 product temperature. However, customers have specific

3 requirements, for example, for a case with a

4 temperature not 34 degrees. So the number I give the

5 customer would be different than I would have to give

6 to DOE. I mean, how do we reconcile this?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We have had this

8 question before. I don't know that we have actually

9 fully addressed the issue.

10 MR. SHEBIK: It is going to come up with one

11 of our very large customers.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I realize it.

13 MR. SHEBIK: They require a certain holding

14 temperature. I don't know what the energy level is,

15 but the holding temperature, it's going to be

16 different than 38.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I will say definitively

18 at the DOE test procedure conditions, the

19 representation should be identical. Now, the question

20 becomes --

21 MR. NESHAN: No doubt about that. No doubt

22 about that.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

202

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. So the question

2 becomes, can you make alternative representations at

3 other conditions outside of the realm of DOE?

4 Can we get back to you on that one?

5 MR. AMRANE: That is being done all the

6 time.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I understand.

8 MR. AMRANE: HVAC, everywhere.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Easy.

10 I got it.

11 MR. FLY: You've got a big problem if you

12 tell us we can't.

13 MR. THARP: I had one thing I would like to

14 add to the basic model discussion that is I think

15 applicable for all products. And that's when we say

16 electrical as the power source, I just want to make

17 sure we're all in tune if that includes 230-volt 3-

18 phase; 460-volt, 3-phase; I-75, that that is one basic

19 model, regardless of the voltage because the energy

20 consumption is the same.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I am going to tell you

22 that I am not going to give you an across-the-board
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

203

1 answer because the reason for that is because in

2 certain test procedures -- and I just don't remember

3 off the top of my head -- certain test procedures, we

4 said, "Test at this voltage." But, generally

5 speaking, that is the goal. There would not be two

6 tests every single decade that you offer for the same

7 rods. So, whether we have done it through test

8 procedures, whether we have done it through basic

9 models, you know, the goal would be to get there. So

10 we will try to reconcile that as we go through.

11 MR. FLY: As long as we list it

12 conservatively?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. You need to --

14 MR. FLY: If there was any difference, if I

15 list it as one basic model for all voltages and it met

16 all the voltage, you wouldn't have a problem with it?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's correct. In certain

18 cases -- and I don't remember if this is the case for

19 any of these products we're talking about today. I

20 know there is one for residential where we said, "Test

21 at this specific voltage." And that actually may be

22 not the most conservative rating in certain cases.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

204

1 But if we said, "Test at this voltage; and you don't

2 need to test at this one," then obviously test

3 procedure has taken care of that.

4 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Comments?

5 Done with this issue?

6 Okay.

7 FEMALE SPEAKER: Do we need to talk about

8 furnaces or something?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, yes.

10 MR. EISNER: We've also got one --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Furnaces, basic model.

12 MR. EISNER: We've got one more. Wait.

13 We've got one more question.

14 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers. In keeping

15 with the discussion we had yesterday morning, are we

16 done with this issue? We need to be careful. We all

17 need to make sure we understand what you mean when you

18 say, "We are done with this issue" because clearly we

19 had a number of items we are going to come back to.

20 MR. EISNER: Every item that we have been

21 talking about today will come back, yes. We're going

22 to take a vote. We just want to know if anybody has
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

205

1 any more questions. Okay.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we need to amend the

3 definition, the existing basic model definition, for

4 commercial furnaces?

5 MR. THARP: At least talk about that.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, there are only two

7 classes. It's pretty --

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Our discussion

9 yesterday that we had on the side was that we would

10 adopt the basic model definition that's in -- we would

11 like to have it the same as what is in the AHRI OM for

12 the commercial furnace.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Which is?

14 MR. WHITWELL: Hold on.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: One of you had it up. This

16 is going to be one of those ones that, does it get you

17 to a singular reading?

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: Efficiency.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I mean, a single, like

22 --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

206

1 MR. WHITWELL: Basically what it is -- well,

2 here. Let me read it. I'm pulling it up. While I'm

3 waiting for it to open up, so a basic model. It

4 depends on the input, the fuel, whether it's oil or

5 gas. Okay. So basic model group is a family of

6 models which have identical ratings for thermal

7 efficiency, which is the metric, and the same primary

8 energy source, gas or oil, and which do not have any

9 differing physical or functional characteristics that

10 affect energy consumption. So it is the input, the

11 input BTT.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Same as ours, different

13 words. Okay.

14 Any issues? Any discussion needed?

15 MR. THARP: Yes. We have water source left.

16 And we haven't put anything together yet. So --

17 MS. HOOTMAN: We didn't get to that.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Maybe I will just come back.

19 MR. STARR: Why don't we table that until

20 next time, if we could.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: I will say that, you know,

22 obviously within this realm is PTACs, SPVUs. Yes,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

207

1 they are air-cooled products. Most of that list did

2 not apply. So I don't know if somebody wants to think

3 about those, but, you know --

4 MR. AMRANE: SPVU is some of the things that

5 we have discussed before. HVAC would apply. For

6 PTACs, probably not, but --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

8 MR. AMRANE: But we will have to come back

9 to you.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Think about those in the

11 grand scheme of things. In my file that I circulated,

12 it had a thing for applicable products. Take a look

13 and just make sure the bases are covered before we

14 actually get to a vote on this and we don't have any

15 extra things we need to reopen later, not to say that

16 we can't.

17 MR. EISNER: Nothing further on this or we

18 do? Something, Phillip?

19 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip Stephens, HTP.

20 Just I can't remember off the top of my head. What

21 category are we putting commercial heat pump/water

22 heaters in?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

208

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: They are under commercial

2 water heaters, although right now we have no test

3 method for them. So those are one of those hanging4 out items.

5 MR. MYERS: Covered, but not currently

6 regulated?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Covered but not currently

8 subject to test procedure or standard. And then they

9 wouldn't have to certify.

10 MR. THARP: You have 13 items. There is an

11 HRI rating procedure that was just released today or

12 yesterday.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Kind of, yes. There will be

14 an ENERGY STAR draft test procedure released probably

15 in June as well for them.

16 MS. HOOTMAN: And it will probably be

17 different, right?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: "Different" is not the right

19 word. You were involved in the HR process. So we

20 were there at the table. So you may see some open21 ended discussion items in the draft as a result of

22 some testing we did.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

209

1 MS. HOOTMAN: Kids, kids, kids. Can't play

2 together well; can you?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We tried. We tried.

4 MR. EISNER: Nothing else on this issue? We

5 still have a remaining scope issue.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need to go back. We need

7 to go back to the AEDM document and finalize as many

8 pieces of this as we can. That is really the

9 outstanding issue. Actually, vote upon them, get

10 final numbers. And we can do this section by section

11 because some I think are pretty noncontroversial. But

12 at least this would allow some things to move forward

13 through the process, if not all. Is that okay?

14 MALE SPEAKER: Yes.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Neil, do you

16 want to do the voting?

17 MR. EISNER: We want to start with the prior

18 paragraphs, where we discuss any of the background.

19 Anybody have any questions on those two paragraphs,

20 basic information about what we are doing?

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, obviously, this would be

22 updated based on the votes.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

210

1 MR. EISNER: No problems on the first two

2 paragraphs?

3 Do we want to vote on each one of these

4 paragraphs one by one or do we want to just go through

5 the whole document and vote on it?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: Can we just kind of do them by

7 like background and then the next thing is, I mean --

8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Well, let's talk about

9 the first two paragraphs in background. Anybody have

10 anything they want to ask about this, any concerns

11 they want to raise?

12 Does anybody want to abstain from voting on

13 this?

14 Are there any objections to this?

15 All right. So it is fair to say we have

16 unanimous consent on this.

17 All right. This is simply going to reflect,

18 the third paragraph is going to reflect, what happens

19 as a result of this meeting. And we agree to whether

20 we say we have consensus or whether we say we have

21 unanimous positions or whatever. If people want to

22 make an abstention and want it recorded in here, we
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

211

1 can do that. Tell us when we talk about abstentions.

2 So this one we can't decide on until we go

3 through each thing. The next one is preapproval of

4 the AEDM prior to use. Talk about applicable

5 products. Do you want to go through the whole thing

6 on AEDM prior to use? Straightforward?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Unanimous?

8 MR. DOPPEL: Yes.

9 MR. EISNER: No disagreements? No

10 abstentions?

11 No objections?

12 Okay. "Applicable products. Recommends

13 allowance of use of AEDMs for the following product

14 types." First bullet. We need some bullets that are

15 on there. Any problems? Let's do the first big

16 bullet. Commercial air conditioning. Any issues?

17 Any problems? Any questions?

18 Any abstentions?

19 Any objections to the first bullet?

20 Okay.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have a question on the

22 line.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

212

1 MS. BARHYDT: Line from somebody voting.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Actually

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Peter, can you hear us?

4 MR. MOLVIE: Yes, I can. Can you hear me?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir. Go ahead.

6 MR. MOLVIE: All right. Yes. I just wanted

7 to ask a question. I had sent in a comment before all

8 the meetings started. I don't know whether you

9 discussed it early yesterday because the audio was

10 out, but it was relative to the testing in accordance

11 with the DOE test procedures and whether or not the

12 approval of this document was unanimous. And I

13 discussed, I think it was, with Laura about the

14 thought. She suggested adding words on the second

15 page when we are talking about each selection

16 representing a single test in accordance with DOE test

17 procedure, adding the words "or an approved

18 alternate," I mean, because we are still left hanging

19 out here with not being able to comply with the

20 current test procedures.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So Ashley and I spoke. And we

22 were going to throw out the document, make sure that
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

213

1 it says, "the applicable DOE test procedure," which

2 would encompass both the regulatory test procedures

3 and any waivers that have been issued by the

4 Department. So it would be whatever test procedure

5 applies to that product so that it's --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That model.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Right, that model.

8 MR. MOLVIE: Thank you.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you.

10 MR. MOLVIE: I guess those words wouldn't be

11 as clear to me as saying the words "approved

12 alternate," but --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can make that clear.

14 MR. MOLVIE: Okay.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the intention is there.

16 MR. EISNER: Do we want to type in here what

17 we will put in each of the other categories so there

18 is no question about it?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not there yet, but

20 yes, I can do that. It is going to be here.

21 MS. BARHYDT: It is going to be done.

22 MR. EISNER: Okay. When we get done today,
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

214

1 we can add it.

2 MR. MOLVIE: Okay. As long as that gets

3 addressed in some manner.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am going to have to change

5 it in like a dozen places.

6 MR. EISNER: No. But I am just saying it is

7 going to be the same language in those places.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is going to say "or

9 approved DOE waiver."

10 MR. EISNER: Thank you.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: So first bullet, no objections,

13 no abstentions. Is that correct?

14 MS. HOOTMAN: Sure.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Second big bullet.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we are okay with

17 applicable products; right?

18 MR. EISNER: Commercial water heaters is the

19 second big bullet. Commercial package boilers,

20 commercial warm air furnaces, commercial refrigeration

21 equipment. Any concerns, questions, problems?

22 Any abstentions?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

215

1 Does anybody object to this language?

2 Okay. That brings us down to validation.

3 Let's look at the introductory paragraphs before we

4 get to each of the charts. Any questions?

5 MR. KLEISS: Sorry. Going back to the

6 previous section, just the heading of it, it says,

7 "Commercial Air Conditioning Equipment," the top

8 bullet.

9 MR. EISNER: We're going back up here.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I knew this one.

11 MR. KLEISS: Okay.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Here you go.

13 MR. KLEISS: Thank you.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I'm sorry, although

15 these are all sub-bullets; right. So I'm okay.

16 MR. EISNER: These are single bullets.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we're okay.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay. So we're back on the

19 validation, first two paragraphs.

20 MR. STANONIK: So this is a note I had from

21 yesterday to make clear that this is -- so I think

22 everyone read this to be on a per-AEDM basis, this is
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

216

1 what you have to do. So I just made that note here.

2 And we will make sure that the language is very clear

3 that it is a per-AEDM basis.

4 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So, similarly, like

5 that first sentence of the second paragraph, it is

6 each of the AEDMs. Up in the second line there, it

7 says, "For each of the validation classes." So it is

8 for each of the AEDMs to be used in the validation

9 classes or something like that; right?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Manufacturer --

11 MR. WHITWELL: I mean, we don't need to get

12 the words right now, but you know what I am getting

13 at; right? That would be an example where we would --

14 MR. KLEISS: Or just in the table, you could

15 just have two models per AEDM.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Sure. Maybe that's --

17 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay with what

18 Ashley has just added?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that is what you

20 want.

21 MR. EISNER: "To which the AEDM is going to

22 apply."
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

217

1 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I guess I am not sure

2 that that says what you are saying down below or what

3 we talked about yesterday. Yesterday we talked about

4 allowing multiple AEDMs per validation class; right?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. If you have

6 multiple, you would still have to meet the

7 requirements for both.

8 MR. WHITWELL: You would.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Both what?

10 MR. WHITWELL: Both what?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So let's just use an

12 example; right? I mean, I don't know. That is what I

13 heard yesterday, but I could have misunderstood.

14 Well, let's just talk about 3-phase, less

15 than 65; right?

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: You decide you want two

18 AEDMs. That is four tested models. Right?

19 MR. WHITWELL: Right, yes.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll get that, whatever that

21 language needs to say.

22 MR. AMRANE: It's for AEDM.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

218

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two for each. So this is

2 the minimum requirements that must be tested per AEDM.

3 MR. DOPPEL: So if we put in a title

4 "Commercial HVAC Validation Classes Per AEDM."

5 MR. AMRANE: Right.

6 MR. DOPPEL: Does that do it?

7 MR. AMRANE: Right.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

9 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. I think right there.

10 MR. EISNER: Should we go with it?

11 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I think we are clear;

12 right?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, I think we all agree.

14 It's just a matter of wording at this point for

15 someone who is not in this room to understand in the

16 CFR.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Yes?

18 MR. THARP: Ashley, my question yesterday on

19 the "subsequent," the term "subsequent," just make

20 sure that the terminology in the final language

21 indicates that subsequent is the comparison of the

22 test data to simulation initially and any further
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

219

1 testing of models. It is not a running comparisons.

2 It is a initial comparison upon initial approval.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

4 MR. EISNER: You want language added or do

5 you want to just ask, make sure that is the

6 understanding?

7 MR. THARP: I think the open discussion here

8 is adequate because it will be recorded.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can put it in the

10 preamble.

11 MR. DOPPEL: At the bottom of this table,

12 there is a note.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. There is a note. It's

14 multiple.

15 MR. EISNER: No problems with the first two

16 paragraphs?

17 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. I think

18 we established yesterday it's also per AEDM per

19 validation class. So if you have one AEDM that spans

20 multiple categories, multiple classes, then you would

21 still have to provide two tests for each --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Each.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

220

1 MR. STEPHENS: -- of those categories.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

3 MR. EISNER: So do we need a clarification

4 in this caption or are you satisfied with something in

5 the preamble?

6 MR. STEPHENS: I think it's fine.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think it's pretty clear.

8 MR. EISNER: Everybody agree it's clear?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: The key here is just

10 maintain your data and your package so that if Laura

11 decides she wants to look at it, you have it squared

12 away.

13 MR. EISNER: Let me make sure. We'll enter

14 the chart now. Any objections on the first two

15 paragraphs?

16 No abstentions?

17 Let the record reflect we have got agreement

18 on that. Let's look at the chart now.

19 MR. MYERS: Excuse me. Neil?

20 MR. EISNER: Yes?

21 MR. MYERS: Let me just make sure what

22 everybody has just agreed to. They agreed to that in
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

221

1 concept along with the notes to have Ashley or someone

2 at DOE write up something that incorporates what we

3 talked about, not those specific words.

4 MR. EISNER: This is --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I just --

6 MR. EISNER: This is the report. Ashley has

7 agreed that she will add language in each place where

8 it is appropriate, one thing about --

9 MS. BARHYDT: The waiver.

10 MR. EISNER: -- the waiver.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: I did do that, in this

12 paragraph. So the idea here is you are voting on the

13 language that would go to ASRAC.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Not the regulatory.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not the right text. I mean,

16 granted, we are going to keep as much of this language

17 as possible as part of the right text, but yes. This

18 is your recommendation.

19 MR. MYERS: So I haven't actually looked at

20 it in that regard. Hopefully others that are voting

21 on it have. This is --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You will get to make
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

222

1 comments on the proposed rule regardless.

2 MR. MYERS: Does everyone feel this includes

3 going to ASRAC, what we have been saying?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

5 MR. AMRANE: When is the next ASRAC meeting?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think right now it is

7 tentatively set for the end of June, towards the end

8 of June.

9 MR. AMRANE: Would it be better to review

10 the final documents before voting on something? I

11 don't know.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the next time you are

13 going to get together is going to be within a week of

14 ASRAC. I want to give ASRAC enough time to vote this

15 out to DOE. It's just pretty close.

16 MR. DOPPEL: Well, we're June 11 and 12.

17 MR. AMRANE: Right. It's end of June.

18 MR. DOPPEL: Or is it 10-11?

19 MR. STANONIK: Ten and 11.

20 MR. DOPPEL: Ten-11.

21 MR. STANONIK: Is the ASRAC meeting on like

22 the --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

223

1 MR. EISNER: This is a document that we

2 talked about at the first meeting very extensively.

3 Are you talking about --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, at some point --

5 MR. EISNER: -- reviewing this document in

6 case you see a minor edit or correction or

7 clarification or are we talking about renegotiating a

8 lot of this in these tables?

9 MR. AMRANE: No. I think voting on the far

10 right, which we --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: So here is the thing. I

12 guess my preference would be -- and I don't know how

13 this would go -- vote on as much of this as possible

14 right now if you have like clarification, edits, or

15 where they will take things and then over the next

16 week or so. And we can compile a final version to

17 circulate. And you can vote on sending it to ASRAC or

18 something like that. But so we don't start the next

19 meeting renegotiating the same positions, let's go

20 ahead and vote out on the positions if we can.

21 MR. EISNER: All right.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Is that fair?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

224

1 MR. AMRANE: Talking about voting

2 MR. MYERS: Sure. This doesn't give the

3 clarity that we were discussing about you can split

4 any validation class into two AEDMs or --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not sure you are going

6 to -- I mean, you can get that. You can put that type

7 of level of clarity in this document. Remember, we

8 still have to translate it to a proposed rule. I

9 mean, if ASRAC votes positively and then the Secretary

10 votes, I mean, the same way, agrees, we still have to

11 translate it to a notice of proposed rulemaking and

12 right text. So at some point, which will be a proposal

13 for the moment.

14 MR. EISNER: I'm not clear on what you want

15 to do on this particular document. I sense that some

16 of you are uncomfortable even saying that "This

17 language is okay. I don't object" or whether you want

18 to just look at this document now, make more comments,

19 have Ashley rewrite the document, circulate it for you

20 to read carefully, get editorial comments to her,

21 other substantive comments, and then have another

22 vote, either via email or via the next meeting. So
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

225

1 let's have a little discussion on that to make sure we

2 are clear where we are. Anybody? Comments? Any

3 suggestions on how to handle this?

4 MR. AMRANE: I think, if possible, it would

5 be better if we vote on the final document. That

6 would be my --

7 MR. EISNER: Well, there may never be a

8 final document.

9 MR. AMRANE: Well, I mean, she is going to -

10 -

11 MR. EISNER: If each time we have a vote on

12 it, someone says, "I'd like to see the language before

13 we vote," that is a fair request to make.

14 But this document was circulated. It was

15 given to people over the weekend. If you think it

16 still doesn't reflect the clarification you asked for

17 yesterday, then you have a right to say, "I want to

18 see another draft." But it can go on forever.

19 If somebody says, "I'm not clear. I need to

20 go back and rethink this point before we vote," they

21 may not have it done in time to get this through a

22 vote.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

226

1 So do you want to reserve the right to go

2 through this now and get everybody's comments and then

3 take a vote on each paragraph or each section? That's

4 why I was suggesting if there is language we want to

5 add, we can add it now. We can give Ashley the

6 instructions to add the same language to each chart if

7 that is necessary. But if you don't feel comfortable

8 and agree to this document now, then there is no sense

9 in voting on each section.

10 MR. STARR: In the --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And, just to be clear, you

12 can edit away at these words. They are still going to

13 be translated to a proposed rule and reg guides --

14 MR. STARR: Right.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- at the end of the day.

16 For what you are going to have comment on, we have no

17 intention of change assuming ASRAC and the Secretary

18 have agreed there is no intention of changing the

19 concepts agreed to but editorialize, we could do this

20 all day long.

21 MR. STARR: Right.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: So the key here is do we all
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

227

1 agree on the concepts? And do the words reflect the

2 big concept issues? Because we will have a

3 transcript, we will have the discussions. And if we

4 need to up preamble examples, we can to go along with

5 this, but we are really trying to move forward here.

6 MR. STARR: Maybe we can just vote or go

7 through this thing and then whatever changes you have,

8 track changes so that we can see them if they have

9 problems with it. That way we can at least do a

10 working document that takes us to the final product

11 sooner, rather than later. And then look at the stuff

12 in track changes that is added after this meeting and

13 then work on it that way would be my preference,

14 although I personally have no problems with it.

15 MR. EISNER: Others? Do you want to

16 withhold approval on certain sections and approve

17 others so --

18 MS. HOOTMAN: Maybe. We haven't gotten down

19 to all of them yet.

20 MR. EISNER: I understand that. But do you

21 have objection to anything you have seen so far so

22 that you want to wait for Ashley to make changes or
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

228

1 can you say, "The two introductory paragraphs are

2 fine. I don't need to see that," "The first chart is

3 fine"? Then Ashley can get it done more quickly and

4 get it out to you.

5 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. Bob Whitwell. So the

6 only thing that I would add to this -- and we talked

7 about it, there is agreement on it -- just where it

8 says, "per AEDM basis," maybe we just add a phrase

9 "can be multiple AEDMs per product class" in this.

10 Then we get the concept down.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Are we done?

12 MR. EISNER: So you want to take out the

13 main clear or --

14 MR. WHITWELL: Maybe the wording needs to be

15 changed up above to correspond to that concept. I'll

16 leave that to Ashley.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay.

18 MR. STANONIK: Does anybody in this room not

19 believe that we have agreement that the number of

20 AEDMs that a manufacturer can use is up to the

21 manufacturer and scope of those AEDMs, whether it

22 covers one product class or several product classes or
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

229

1 just one subgroup within a product class is also up to

2 the manufacturer's discretion? Does anybody not

3 believe we have gotten to that point of agreement? Do

4 you trust DOE to provide it?

5 MR. EISNER: Let me ask, does anybody

6 disagree with going through this document and voting

7 approval section by section? So we can go through and

8 vote section by section. If there is a section that

9 there is objection to or request for more clarity, we

10 can identify that and ask for a revision. The whole

11 document can come around. The focus would be on the

12 ones we said, "Would like to look at it again before

13 we vote on it." What we have gone through today, does

14 anybody want to go back and reverse their vote and

15 object so that Ashley has to circulate for clearance?

16 Yes?

17 MR. MYERS: Neil, this is Frank Myers with

18 PVI. I did jot down the two things that we talked

19 about that are not directly contained in this that I

20 think we have all agreed to. So it's not reopening.

21 But with the addition of these two sentences, I think

22 it would cover all the things that called me the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

230

1 previous question back up.

2 MR. EISNER: All right. And these weren't

3 things that Ashley said would go in the preamble?

4 These were things that you think should be in the

5 rule?

6 MR. MYERS: Would be a part of this

7 paragraph. It makes the clarification that --

8 MR. EISNER: This paragraph here?

9 MR. MYERS: Yes.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. What do you want to add

11 and where?

12 MR. MYERS: Two sentences. "Multiple AEDMs

13 are allowed within a single validation class.

14 However, each AEDM must meet the minimum number of

15 required model tests." Second sentence, "A single

16 AEDM can span multiple validation classes. However,

17 all validation classes must include the required model

18 tests."

19 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any comment on that

20 suggestion? Any objection?

21 MR. KLEISS: The first sentence that he read

22 is I think covered already in there.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

231

1 MR. EISNER: Right.

2 MR. MYERS: Okay.

3 MR. KLEISS: The second sentence, I think

4 that is valid.

5 MR. EISNER: I think he added two sentences

6 after this.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. First. This is one

8 more.

9 MR. MYERS: Ashley, one other aspect of it

10 that we may need to make clear is that anything you

11 span, anything you touch as a validation class,

12 separately you have to do the models to support the

13 test models to support that.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

15 MR. MYERS: That's it, I guess. Yes.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Wrong way.

17 MR. MYERS: That is a simpler way of saying

18 what I had just said. Very good.

19 MR. THARP: That made it clear. So we don't

20 need it made clearer.

21 MR. MYERS: Right.

22 MR. EISNER: Are you going to leave this
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

232

1 here?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I may make it a

3 sentence, but okay. Hold on.

4 MR. STARR: Be grammatical.

5 MR. EISNER: We refer to this as leading to

6 the Committee on Style.

7 MR. STARR: Yes.

8 MR. EISNER: The Committee on Style is

9 Ashley.

10 MR. CYMBALSKY: The charge in here is

11 writing English.

12 MR. EISNER: Up to this point --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, understand it better.

14 MR. EISNER: Up to this point in the

15 document, on the vote on approval, does anybody want

16 to abstain?

17 Does any object to this being part of the

18 document?

19 Okay. The chart. Any objections on the

20 chart? Any questions on the chart?

21 Okay. Does anybody want to abstain from

22 voting on this?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

233

1 Does anybody object to it?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: We need to see what the --

3 MS. HOOTMAN: Now it's the chart. Didn't

4 you want to talk about the --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: You want to talk about the

6 footnote. Well, the footnote goes away. And the

7 model goes to basic model. And we just have to agree

8 on the list.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do we agree with that

11 change?

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. And I'll make that

14 change throughout.

15 MR. EISNER: So every one of these is going

16 to say, "basic models"?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, sir.

18 MR. EISNER: Everybody is okay with that?

19 No abstentions?

20 No objections?

21 MR. MYERS: Maybe I just missed it, but I

22 found "package," four of those, in there. Did I just
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

234

1 miss it?

2 MS. BARHYDT: That's a different table.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not there yet.

4 MR. MYERS: Oh, sorry. Thank you.

5 MR. EISNER: There are no abstentions. Does

6 anybody object to this chart being part of the report

7 to ASRAC?

8 Okay. So it got approved. We're on to the

9 next category: water heater, heaters validation

10 classes.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: This will be the same.

12 MR. KLEISS: Maybe we can get rid of the

13 footnotes.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

15 MR. KLEISS: Validations. I realize that

16 this is not going to change what needs to be on the

17 chart, but I have to make a comment that it is my

18 opinion that unpowered water heater storage tanks do

19 not have any test procedure that is applicable to

20 manufacturers.

21 MR. EISNER: Talking about this one here?

22 MR. KLEISS: I am talking about water
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

235

1 storage tanks.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Would you like me to read

3 the definition right now for you?

4 MR. KLEISS: We've done that before.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

6 MR. STANONIK: It's not a question of the

7 definition. It's a question of what the standard is,

8 for the ASHRAE standard.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: The ASHRAE standard is an R10 value. And the test procedure is included in the

11 definition, which is how ASHRAE did it as well.

12 MR. KLEISS: Test of the R-value, not test

13 of the water heater.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

15 MR. KLEISS: Yes.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: But the point, the regulated

17 entity is the water heater manufacturer for the R.

18 MR. KLEISS: I just needed to go on record

19 with that.

20 MR. EISNER: Let me be clear. When you say

21 you wanted to go on record, do you want to go on

22 record as part of the vote or just so that we all hear
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

236

1 it and it's typed up and everything?

2 MR. KLEISS: I think just so we hear it and

3 I get it on there. The fact that it is on this table

4 I don't think -- as long as it being on this table

5 does not imply that I condone the fact that or the

6 implication that it should be tested by manufacturer.

7 MR. EISNER: Again, I'm not sure we're

8 talking about how you voted.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we have an open issue;

10 right? We have an open issue of how the R-value -- by

11 putting it on this table, it is allowing you

12 potentially one day to the extent that we resolve that

13 issue to use an AEDM.

14 MR. KLEISS: Understand.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: We can take it out.

16 MR. KLEISS: I understand. And if it comes

17 to that, I would much rather add this there.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

19 MR. EISNER: Frank?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: And obviously we need to

21 deal with the unfired water heating and cooling.

22 MR. EISNER: Frank?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

237

1 MR. MYERS: I would propose that given this

2 discussion and the fact that it needs to be on here

3 and we at the end of the day want it to be on here,

4 that we change that "two basic models" to "one basic

5 model" because we're not really talking about a

6 difference between models. We are talking about the

7 insulation and also the fact that most manufacturers

8 have one set of data from their insulation vendor in

9 their files. And to go back and get another set of

10 data, if you will, it is kind of out of our control.

11 We have to go back and request somebody else. So if

12 it was one, then we could --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not a single test. So

14 this is a single test for two different R-values.

15 This is what that means. Two basic models is two

16 different ratings. So, say, R-value 15, R-value 20,

17 the single test for each of those.

18 MR. KLEISS: We may not have one R-value.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get that part. Then that

20 would be your --

21 MR. FLY: You don't have any in?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. You have your
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

238

1 test.

2 MR. FLY: Okay.

3 MR. EISNER: Is everybody --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right now -- yes.

5 MR. EISNER: You are okay with that? Are

6 you okay with that?

7 MR. KLEISS: They are not basic models, in

8 effect. This is two --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is. It's different

10 ratings.

11 MR. KLEISS: Two R-values.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: So my proposal here is

13 either we take it off the table completely, we take it

14 out, or we leave it as is.

15 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI.

16 There's no question there's a significant unresolved

17 issue on unpowered storage tanks as to testing and

18 where it happened and whatever. I would suggest where

19 it says "leave the validation class" and where it

20 says, "minimum number," why don't we just put "To be

21 determined"?

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's the same as taking it
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

239

1 out. It has to go --

2 MR. STANONIK: Well, no.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It has to go through a rule

4 to change it.

5 MR. STANONIK: If you take it out, it's not

6 on the list; right? It's not on the table. Like you

7 said, if it is on the table, it still allows --

8 MS. BARHYDT: I can't issue a rule that

9 says, "To be determined."

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct. If it doesn't have

11 a number in there, it would be taken out of the

12 proposal.

13 MR. STANONIK: Laura, thank you. Thank you.

14 The proper terminology is "Reserved." Right? There

15 are rules where that --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can't use it. There is

17 no difference.

18 MS. BARHYDT: There is no AEDM in them.

19 MR. EISNER: How about if you --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: There is no AEDM. They

21 cannot use one.

22 MR. EISNER: How about if we put a footnote
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

240

1 in here and DOE, under authority, agrees to raise this

2 issue in an NPRM? Say, "Here is where we stand.

3 There were some concerns about what this should mean."

4 MR. STEPHENS: I think we are okay as is

5 because some manufacturers actually use wrap

6 insulation and foam insulation depending on what

7 product line it is. And if they want to choose to do

8 an AEDM based on that, then there would be a case

9 where you have different R-values that you could work

10 with. I think this gives us more flexibility for

11 manufacturers going forward, however they come up with

12 this solution and determination for this case.

13 MR. KLEISS: My comments about the two basic

14 models are that maybe it should be two samples or

15 something of that sort because the insulation value

16 has absolutely nothing to do with the design of the

17 tank. It is a test of the transmissive quality of a

18 coupon cut out that has nothing to do with a tank

19 design. And so it is not a test of a basic model. It

20 is a test of a sample of the insulating material.

21 MR. STEPHENS: The units are per unit

22 length. So then it's just a factor of whatever
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

241

1 categories you have. Right? That's why we have this

2 issue. The term "basic model" --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: My proposal is take out the

4 table and put it under water heater.

5 MS. BARHYDT: No AEDM. And we'll add AEDM

6 for this product and the appropriate test procedure.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's open-ended. It's open

8 now.

9 MR. STANONIK: If it's established that, in

10 fact, testing is required, testing of the water --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We have regs. Now, I

12 wouldn't consider it --

13 MR. STANONIK: Testing of --

14 MS. BARHYDT: There is a regulatory

15 requirement now.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: It was made from ASHRAE.

17 MR. STANONIK: We should not bog down this

18 meeting having this discussion.

19 MALE SPEAKER: Take it out.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I remove it?

21 MULTIPLE SPEAKERS: Take it out.

22 MR. MYERS: I would disagree. I would say
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

242

1 we can always change what we do in a rulemaking, but

2 leave it in.

3 MR. STANONIK: Yes.

4 MR. MYERS: That gives us the opportunity,

5 as Ashley said, to me it is a bit ridiculous, but at

6 least it is in the AEDM.

7 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's have a vote

8 on this. How many people object? How many people

9 object to taking it out? First, how many abstain on

10 the vote on whether it should be in or out?

11 So two are abstaining. How many object to

12 taking it out?

13 MR. KLEISS: Object to taking it out?

14 MR. EISNER: Taking it out. In other words,

15 it would be left in the chart.

16 MR. KLEISS: Object.

17 MR. EISNER: All right. So there is one

18 objection to taking it out. There are two

19 abstentions.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Raise your hand high. Do it

21 kindergarten. Raise your hand high.

22 MR. BAUMAN: We are voting on whether to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

243

1 take out unfired? Okay.

2 MR. EISNER: Take this line out.

3 MR. BAUMAN: All right.

4 MR. EISNER: There are two objections.

5 MR. BAUMAN: I apologize. I thought we were

6 voting on --

7 MR. EISNER: Sure.

8 MR. BAUMAN: Can I abstain, then, because I

9 don't --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: He abstained.

11 MR. HALLEY: I'll abstain.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Too many.

13 MS. BARHYDT: We have like a lot of them. A

14 lot of people changed their mind.

15 MR. BAUMAN: Are we just talking about that

16 one line?

17 MR. EISNER: On this one?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: One line item.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

20 MR. EISNER: Well, abstentions are -- just

21 to get an idea of how many are abstaining, how many

22 want to abstain?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

244

1 With the remaining voters, it is unanimous

2 that they object, that they want it taken out?

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: They want it left in.

4 MR. EISNER: They want it left in?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

6 MR. MYERS: It's very confusing to do it, do

7 you want to take it out? Can we just say have the

8 vote be, do you want to leave that like it is or not?

9 MR. EISNER: All right. Do you want to

10 leave it like it is? How many people want to abstain?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: The same people.

12 MR. EISNER: How many want to leave it in?

13 MR. KLEISS: I would rather have different

14 wording on it, but if that is the --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Jeff?

16 MR. KLEISS: -- sticking point that we

17 cannot get past, I would rather have it in as written.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is in or it is out.

19 MR. EISNER: So with this line --

20 MR. KLEISS: If this is how we are going to

21 do it, I would rather have it in.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Move on.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

245

1 MR. EISNER: With this line in, looking at

2 chart number 2, how many abstain from voting on this

3 one?

4 MR. BAUMAN: I have a question. Do we need

5 to add "tested per AEDM" to the final wording?

6 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll do that. I promise.

8 MR. BAUMAN: Thank you.

9 MR. EISNER: Okay. How many object to

10 inclusion of this chart?

11 No one objects? All right. Let's go on to

12 number 3. Commercial package.

13 MR. SACHS: The right statement under a lot

14 of abstentions.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm getting there. I've got

16 it.

17 MR. EISNER: Okay. Commercial package, on

18 the validation question. Can we bring the chart up?

19 You need to scroll up a little bit. We have a

20 footnote, I guess, here. We can cut and paste.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: That has to got to be

22 simpler.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

246

1 MR. MOLVIE: Can I ask a question?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

3 MR. MOLVIE: Hello?

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

5 MR. EISNER: We're here. Ask your question.

6 MR. MOLVIE: Okay. This is Pete Molvie. I

7 probably missed it if it was on here before the sound

8 started working. I wanted to confirm if there was a

9 final definition for basic model for the package to

10 work. We still have the same definition we were

11 discussing last night in the offline meeting or --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

13 MR. MOLVIE: -- is there anything changed?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Nothing changed.

15 MR. MOLVIE: Okay. Thank you. That

16 answered my question. Thank you.

17 MR. EISNER: Table 3, any discussion? Yes?

18 MR. HALLEY: Yes. I wondered if we need to

19 keep a track of the fact that we have got this problem

20 outstanding of large units that have been tested at

21 the manufacturer's facility and possibility with using

22 a different procedure, test procedure. Is this the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

247

1 appropriate place to put it?

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: So we have made

3 accommodations in the process for large units that

4 can't be tested or that are factory-installed or COT

5 provisions, whatever it is, to be tested at a

6 manufacturing facility. By default, all of this

7 testing that we are talking about now is required to

8 be done by the manufacturer and can be done at their

9 facility or at their facility, totally at their

10 discretion. Yes.

11 So I think that test procedure is what it

12 is. Until we get through either a test procedure

13 rulemaking to address the wholesale or the waivers get

14 processed through, applicable DOE test procedure

15 stands. That being said, we are committed to working

16 through them, yes. We're working on them.

17 MR. EISNER: Right. Okay. Okay. Chart 3,

18 questions? Concerns?

19 All right. Voting on table 3, how many

20 people want to abstain from voting?

21 One person is abstaining.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Table 3.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

248

1 MR. EISNER: How many object to the

2 inclusion of table 3 in the report to ASRAC?

3 No? No one objects? One abstention.

4 Table 4. Commercial furnaces, validation

5 classes.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hey, Rob, can you just send

7 me the AHRI basic models on commercial furnaces when

8 you get a chance?

9 ROB: Yes.

10 MR. EISNER: Okay. Table 4, questions?

11 Concerns?

12 How many people want to abstain from the

13 vote?

14 No one. How many object to inclusion of

15 chart number 4 in the report to ASRAC?

16 Okay. Number 5, commercial refrigeration

17 equipment validation classes. Any questions? Any

18 concerns?

19 Anybody want to abstain from the vote?

20 One abstention. Two abstentions. Three.

21 How many object to the including of table 5 in the

22 report to ASRAC?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

249

1 Okay. Unanimous.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that --

3 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Can I --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Does that note need to be

5 clarified?

6 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. If we can clarify what we

7 discussed, I mean, I trust you with the wording of

8 that.

9 MR. EISNER: ENT, E-N is in the wrong place.

10 Okay.

11 Are you going to clarify the footnote?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll have to think about

13 that.

14 MR. BAUMAN: Yes.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll have good words, but --

16 MR. BAUMAN: The composition of the models

17 does not increase the number of models.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

19 MR. BAUMAN: I was thinking, working on it

20 last night, but I didn't get to any of the --

21 MR. EISNER: Does anyone want to withhold

22 voting until Ashley writes this up and circulates it
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

250

1 or do you want to leave it to Ashley to describe it?

2 MR. BAUMAN: I trust Ashley.

3 MS. DANE: Yes. I don't think --

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any questions or

5 comments on the rest of table 5?

6 Abstentions?

7 Any negative votes? Anybody object to

8 inclusion of table 5 with the amendment that Ashley

9 will add to it?

10 Okay. That's unanimous support. That

11 brings us up to AEDM tolerances, first paragraph and

12 the two sub-bullets. Questions?

13 MR. STEPHENS: Just a recommendation. If we

14 could get examples of the metrics in those two so that

15 we could understand?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can I just write preamble

17 language that gives examples further?

18 MR. EISNER: We can add these --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the assumption is

20 energy use efficiency is --

21 MR. STEPHENS: Jeff and I talked about it

22 last night. And when we looked at it, the first --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

251

1 MR. KLEISS: We both got it wrong.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

3 MR. EISNER: We can add to the chart, "DOE

4 will add language to the preamble giving examples of

5 these tolerances."

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

7 MR. EISNER: And looking from here to here,

8 any questions? Any concerns?

9 MR. AMRANE: Right.

10 MS. DANE: I have a question on form, sir.

11 MR. EISNER: Yes. Go ahead, Mary.

12 MS. DANE: Mary from Traulsen. Is this an

13 either/or, just for clarification? I might have

14 missed that because I know I was reading it, and it

15 was probably late. But is that a you can use one or

16 the other or you have to apply both?

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Depends on your metric.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Subject.

19 MALE SPEAKER: Yes. Well, that's not what

20 it said.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: For energy consumption

22 metrics, you have to use that one for efficiency --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

252

1 MR. WHITWELL: Either/or.

2 MS. DANE: But it says, "and" at the end.

3 And that's what threw me off.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, they are both

5 requirements, but your metric is only going to fall

6 into one.

7 MS. DANE: Okay.

8 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other questions?

9 Any concerns?

10 MR. AMRANE: Yes. Karim Amrane, AHRI. The

11 95 percent that is for energy efficiency, for example,

12 is not consistent with the table around when we took

13 10 percent for IEER. It's not 95.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is different, right,

15 different requirements?

16 MR. AMRANE: Different times. Yes. So

17 maybe you could reference the tables. I don't know.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is to validate the

19 AEDM. It always has to be within five percent,

20 regardless.

21 MR. AMRANE: It depends on the IEER.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what we agreed on.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

253

1 MR. EISNER: What were you --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is not for

3 verification.

4 MALE SPEAKER: IEER is not a metric today.

5 MR. AMRANE: Today, yes.

6 MALE SPEAKER: So that doesn't apply to

7 IEER.

8 MR. DOPPEL: There is another chart where we

9 have IEER is ten percent.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Correct.

11 MALE SPEAKER: But that is on the --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is on the verification

13 side.

14 MALE SPEAKER: -- verification side, yes.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how close your

16 simulation needs to be to your tested value. And that

17 was a five percent across the board.

18 MR. THARP: But this is a concern with any

19 regulated metrics, which is EER; correct?

20 MR. AMRANE: I don't think we can agree to

21 that.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: You did agree to that.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

254

1 MR. AMRANE: We did? I think we

2 misunderstood.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: You did vote.

4 MR. STARR: That was on the 5 to 25 percent

5 tolerance on the AEDM.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. This has nothing to do

7 with verifying whether --

8 MR. THARP: The AEDM. The AEDM value is a

9 steady state. And that is EER only.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is how close can you

11 simulate to your tested value.

12 MR. THARP: Right. And the metric is only

13 EER presently for commercial; right.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We agreed a five percent

15 across the board was how close your simulated value

16 should be to your tested value for you, for tests you

17 do, you control, simulations you do, you control, no

18 third party lines, et cetera.

19 When you get to verification testing, when I

20 test or when Karim tests one of your units, how close

21 does it need to be to its rated value? That's when we

22 came up with a list of products. This is how close
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

255

1 does your simulation need to be. You are testing your

2 own. You are witnessing. You are setting up. You

3 are running. Everything is in your control.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Am I missing this?

5 MR. STEPHENS: I think there was a lot of

6 discussion on this. And then Charles pointed out that

7 this is just a main shift to be within the tolerances.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, exactly, yes.

9 MR. STEPHENS: It goes to one side of the

10 tolerance.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is one-sided.

12 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

13 MR. SACHS: You all think good about this or

14 I am going to read it through zero tolerance.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: When you choose to test and

16 your simulation is going to show whatever close to

17 that but then you choose to rate it lower, way lower,

18 giving yourself a big cushion, you don't have a

19 simulation that is showing that way lower. You

20 actually haven't tested.

21 MALE SPEAKER: It's one-sided.

22 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. All right.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

256

1 MR. SACHS: I'm being really nice in

2 allowing you to sell products, no matter how much

3 better they are than the standard.

4 MR. WHITWELL: I think the questions,

5 though, are around the fact that we don't today --

6 IEER is not a metric that's covered by DOE. Maybe it

7 is going to be in the future. And I don't know about

8 any others, but we don't have an AEDM currently for

9 IEER.

10 MALE SPEAKER: Correct, yes.

11 MR. WHITWELL: So we are not sure --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: What is this directory based

13 on?

14 MR. WHITWELL: They are based on tests.

15 Ours are based on tests --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: All of them.

17 MR. WHITWELL: -- of the basic models.

18 MR. AMRANE: There are maybe two left. They

19 are tested.

20 MR. WHITWELL: But they are not. I mean, as

21 we have discussed, they are not with all of the

22 options and everything, --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

257

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- which is going to have to

3 go in our AEDM; right? And so I don't know what the

4 impact -- you know, how accurate our AEDM is going to

5 be when we start getting into a 25 percent load

6 condition. And so --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is the --

8 MR. WHITWELL: We are going to have to learn

9 as we go forward on whether we can comply with the

10 same tolerance on the --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: You should bring it up in

12 that rule.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Normally --

14 MR. WHITWELL: We would try.

15 MR. AMRANE: It can be changed in the

16 future.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

18 MR. AMRANE: I think it would be fine.

19 MR. WHITWELL: It is new territory for us,

20 unknown.

21 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Regulations can always can
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

258

1 be changed --

2 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- as long as they're not --

4 MR. THARP: As we were walking through this

5 discussion, I know, at least for me, I was under the

6 impression this was as far as currently regulated DOE

7 regs.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. That was my thought as

9 well.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

11 MR. SACHS: I also felt that.

12 MALE SPEAKER: You can just take it out.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's right. I mean, I can

14 take IEER out of the next table --

15 MALE SPEAKER: Right.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- because where it says

17 that

18 --

19 MR. WHITWELL: Or we could just say --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: We supposedly had a

21 discussion around --

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

259

1 MR. WHITWELL: Or we could say that this is

2 for current metrics.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, it is only going to be

4 required. You don't have to certify the plans until

5 there is a standard.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Standard.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, until we get to an IEER

8 --

9 MR. WHITWELL: All right. Okay.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- standard, which is seven

11 years away maybe, if we decide to, then --

12 MR. WHITWELL: Someone else's problem then.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Off the record.

14 MALE SPEAKER: No, no, no.

15 MR. EISNER: Too late. It's too late. You

16 are recorded.

17 Where do we stand on this? Does somebody

18 want to tell us? Is everybody in agreement now?

19 MR. THARP: It is fine. One-sided is fine.

20 MR. EISNER: Let's vote on this.

21 MR. BAUMAN: Can I ask for something? Is it

22 also to include an example in the preamble?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

260

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, right here.

2 MR. BAUMAN: I'm sorry.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's what you want?

4 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Thank you.

5 MR. EISNER: Okay. We anticipated your

6 meaning.

7 MR. BAUMAN: Thanks, Ashley.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: We aim to please at the

9 Department.

10 MR. EISNER: Abstentions? No abstentions?

11 Anybody object to including this language in

12 the report to ASRAC?

13 Okay. That brings us up to application of

14 validated AEDM and certified ratings, here and here.

15 Any concerns and questions?

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: This just says the certified

17 rating can be conservative in a lot of words.

18 MR. EISNER: Okay. Everybody ready to vote?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But you can read it all the

20 way down to the standard.

21 MR. EISNER: Any abstentions on this vote?

22 Any objections to including this in the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

261

1 report to ASRAC?

2 Okay. Unanimous.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, here we go.

4 MR. EISNER: DOE verification. Why don't

5 you make a summary of the voting?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I did it at the top.

7 I summarized.

8 MS. BARHYDT: That's a different one.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh. You are right.

10 MR. EISNER: Are we taking multiple bullets

11 here? Do we want to go through them separately or do

12 we want the whole section to be voted on?

13 MR. STEPHENS: I have one comment. Down in

14 the second to last bullet on the bottom of the page,

15 this specifically limits us to phone conversations.

16 Can we just leave it open as communicating because we

17 could do -- we could use videoconferencing. A lot of

18 times videoconferencing and being able to physically

19 crack at something in the lab is --

20 MS. BARHYDT: It is a little more up.

21 MR. EISNER: This bullet?

22 MR. STEPHENS: The third bullet.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

262

1 MS. BARHYDT: Via phone.

2 MR. STEPHENS: It's paging. The third

3 bullet from the bottom, the fourth line down.

4 MR. EISNER: Over here?

5 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

6 MR. EISNER: So do you want to just say,

7 "Discussion with the lab"?

8 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, please.

9 MR. EISNER: "To discuss additional

10 details."

11 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: "Discussion with lab on

13 additional details."

14 MR. STEPHENS: Yes. If we can just leave it

15 as --

16 MR. EISNER: Is everybody okay with that

17 change?

18 MR. STEPHENS: Absolutely.

19 MR. EISNER: All right. Do we want to go

20 through this bullet by bullet or are you comfortable

21 enough that you understand the whole thing? Yes?

22 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, AHRI. Let's
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

263

1 see. The third bullet. Yes. That's it. Okay. And

2 then the first sub-bullet says, "Any additional

3 information that is needed regarding test setup or

4 testing will be provided from the manufacturer or

5 third party representative to DOE through the

6 certification process." Do we all agree that it has

7 to be provided through the certification process?

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

9 MR. WHITWELL: So we still talked about

10 having to have a process, what that process is going

11 to be for that.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: But what it means is you

13 can't provide it to someone else. You have to provide

14 it to the Department.

15 MR. STEPHENS: That implies that the --

16 MS. HOOTMAN: Not directly to the lab. Is

17 that what you are saying?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Not directly to the lab.

19 Not directly to a third party. I mean, you could

20 provide it to a third party, but that third party

21 still has to provide it to us. Ultimately, it has to

22 go through DOE before it can get to the lab.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

264

1 MR. STANONIK: My understanding of that

2 wording would say it has to be part of my

3 certification report.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: We agree.

5 MR. MYERS: Really?

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Why not?

7 MR. STANONIK: There is only one

8 certification process. It happens before you go to

9 commerce, theoretically.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, in theory, you may

11 not know we are testing a product. So whatever

12 information should be on here at the outside before

13 you distribute in commerce when you certify or

14 whatever that ends up meaning.

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, so what we do today,

16 what we do today.

17 MR. STANONIK: That's fine, but what you do

18 to our program, our program at the moment --

19 MS. HOOTMAN: It doesn't give it to --

20 MR. STANONIK: This residual stuff, yes. We

21 wouldn't give all that --

22 MS. HOOTMAN: I realize you don't get into
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

265

1 that, but we will probably --

2 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right.

3 MS. HOOTMAN: -- be back telling you you are

4 going to give it to them.

5 MR. STANONIK: Okay. All right.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: If you want us to use it.

7 MR. EISNER: Paul?

8 MR. DOPPEL: I have something for the next

9 sentence.

10 MR. MYERS: On that one, I have a question.

11 If we did not provide information when we put the

12 information out in the program and this was a custom

13 piece of equipment or one-off, so they had to come to

14 us to get it built, would we have an opportunity to

15 provide that information to DOE? This says only

16 through certification. Isn't it really just if it is

17 to be provided, it has to be provided to DOE, --

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

19 MR. MYERS: -- as opposed to --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: The answer --

21 MR. MYERS: -- strictly through

22 certification?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

266

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The way that I read this

2 right now is the answer would be no. If you need to

3 submit something, you need to either revise your cert

4 report or submit it as part of your certification.

5 MR. MYERS: From your own lab?

6 MR. EISNER: What's the process now?

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: What?

8 MR. EISNER: What's the process?

9 MR. MYERS: From your own lab?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: So there was a discussion

11 about that yesterday as to whether we should even use

12 information from OMs or whether we should rely on OMs

13 or, really, this testing or whatever you want to call

14 it, -- it's just more information for tests -- should

15 be separate and shouldn't have to be included in OMs

16 because, really, it is unnecessary. So I thought the

17 idea was you would prefer to have it separate, you

18 would prefer not to have it in your OMs.

19 MR. MYERS: Right.

20 MR. WHITWELL: Clarification. I think we

21 always would like the lab to install it for our OMs.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. So in the --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

267

1 MR. WHITWELL: But then there is additional

2 information --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

4 MR. WHITWELL: -- required in order to run

5 for the test procedures.

6 MR. MYERS: Right.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. So to the

8 extent that something says, you know, "set up in

9 accordance with my OM," it is going to be set up with

10 whatever shipped with the unit.

11 MR. WHITWELL: Right.

12 MR. AMRANE: And is the information

13 confidential or is the information public information?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: That was yesterday, too.

15 MR. AMRANE: Was it?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So to a certain extent,

17 it depends. We can have a discussion. We have not

18 gone there yet because we haven't really talked about

19 what information is all going to be sent in to the

20 Department. We can have a discussion about what DOE

21 proactively makes available. We do not have the

22 ability to negotiate what ultimately is releasable
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

268

1 under FOIA because that is governed by the Freedom of

2 Information Act. So we can talk about what DOE is

3 proactive about releasing, but ultimately FOIA is

4 going to determine what information is confidential.

5 Confidential business information can be withheld, but

6 that doesn't mean that the fact that you submitted

7 something to the Department is necessarily

8 confidential. I mean, it may be that we provide a

9 piece of paper with a big black box on it, but it just

10 depends on what ultimately is on the piece of paper.

11 MR. FLY: Is there something that we have to

12 proactively do to flag to you that we feel it is

13 confidential information?

14 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. We can talk about all of

15 that when --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are processing it

17 together.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Well, when we talk about

19 information being submitted to the Department. We can

20 talk about what that process would be.

21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Don't they get a crack at

22 the FOIA before it goes --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

269

1 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, yes. So before we

2 release anything, we send it back to the person who

3 submitted it to us. And we get your views on what you

4 believe to be confidential information.

5 MR. EISNER: Going back to this issue about

6 --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you have to make a claim

8 at that point.

9 MR. EISNER: Ashley?

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes?

11 MR. EISNER: Going back to the issue of

12 submitting to the certification process --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

14 MR. EISNER: -- is that as simple as sending

15 a letter saying, "I would like to add to or be

16 included in my certification package the following new

17 document"?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think what we do is

19 probably make it even easier than that. As part of

20 the process of submitting the documentation, -- we

21 will have to work this out -- you would just upload a

22 file, which would be held in our -- like a .pdf file
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

270

1 that would be held in our SQL database associated with

2 that basic model, --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Certification.

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- with that certification.

5 And then the way we have it is if you revise it at any

6 time, it would show the latest entry as the active

7 one. And whenever we needed to pull it, we could.

8 MR. EISNER: So did that satisfy the

9 concerns on going through the certification process?

10 MR. MYERS: Sure. That would be fine

11 because then if we felt that it was information that

12 the Department could benefit from in the setup and we

13 had failed to provide it several years earlier but now

14 you are actually getting one, then we could upload it

15 to that. And that would be available to me.

16 MS. BARHYDT: You can always revise your

17 certification.

18 MR. MYERS: So yes. That was a problem.

19 MR. EISNER: Other questions? Concerns?

20 MR. THARP: Yes. I had --

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: You may not be able to

22 revise it while we are in test --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

271

1 MR. MYERS: Yes.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- to change something.

3 MR. MYERS: I understand.

4 MR. EISNER: Go ahead. Go ahead.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're testy at 2:00 o'clock.

6 MR. THARP: I'm just saying, what is the

7 difference between this verification testing and the

8 assessment testing of 429.14?

9 MS. BARHYDT: That's what this is.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: New terms.

11 MR. DOPPEL: Okay. The next sentence, "DOE

12 will then provide this information to the laboratory

13 as long as it is in accordance." And that probably

14 should say, "with the appropriate DOE test procedure."

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. I need to do a

16 global for --

17 MR. EISNER: For the word "in."

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: "Applicable"? Is that okay?

19 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, "applicable."

20 MS. BARHYDT: But it's also "with," instead

21 of

22 --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

272

1 MR. EISNER: No. It's "with the

2 applicable," not "in."

3 MR. DOPPEL: Yes, not "in" but "with."

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: And that would include

5 waiver?

6 MR. MYERS: Right.

7 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay.

8 MR. EISNER: Others? This is a long

9 section. Does anybody want to focus on it more or are

10 you ready to go?

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

12 MR. EISNER: Can you get more on a page or

13 let's focus it.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'll try. I don't think so.

15 We're going to have to do two pages.

16 MR. SACHS: Cover your left eye.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Can we vote? Are we okay

18 with what is shown on the screen right now?

19 MR. SACHS: That helps.

20 MS. HOOTMAN: So that's four bullets.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: Are we okay with the first

22 four?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

273

1 Then I'll move to the next set.

2 MALE SPEAKER: Do you want to get it up as

3 well?

4 MR. EISNER: Let's just go. I think there

5 is only one more bullet, isn't there?

6 MS. BARHYDT: No.

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. The next --

8 MS. BARHYDT: There's like four more.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: The next page.

10 MR. EISNER: So from this part down to here,

11 does anybody want to abstain?

12 Are there any objections to including this

13 in the report to ASRAC?

14 I see none. Let's go to the rest. Now we

15 go to "If the unit is outside, down to here, option

16 above regarding the testing."

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

18 MR. EISNER: This one?

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's this one.

20 MR. EISNER: "If the unit is outside, down

21 to here, option above regarding the testing." Two

22 seconds to read it.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

274

1 MS. HOOTMAN: I still don't know how that

2 ten percent is calculated.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's based on how you do

4 your certifications. If you put in 500, it would be

5 10 percent of 500. If you put in five --

6 MS. HOOTMAN: In the verification classes or

7 --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Certification, your sort of

9 basic models, the way it's written now.

10 MR. DOPPEL: Weren't we going to have more

11 discussion about that ten percent after we talked

12 about models?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are here.

14 MR. DOPPEL: Good. Because I know that was

15 Karen's.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

17 MR. DOPPEL: Karen wanted to maybe have some

18 (inaudible). Is ten percent the right number? Is it

19 going to be 12? Is it going to be 20?

20 MR. WHITWELL: We haven't really finalized

21 the basic model. They have a definition, but there is

22 a lot of, you know, all that stuff underneath that is
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

275

1 not final yet.

2 MR. EISNER: Now, let me ask you to put it

3 this way, in terms of are we following this or having

4 a long time perhaps discussing this issue? Do you

5 want to say 10 percent with other options or a range

6 of 5 percent to 15 percent or is that in the preamble

7 for discussion?

8 MR. DOPPEL: Or we can just start with 20

9 percent and negotiate it after that.

10 MS. HOOTMAN: Or can it go forward with an -

11 -

12 MS. BARHYDT: Send it to ASRAC.

13 MR. STANONIK: Or leave it for resolution at

14 the next meeting.

15 MR. EISNER: Do people want to make an

16 argument for another --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're there now. I mean, to

18 a certain extent, yes, we need to provide for

19 resolution on that list. But it is still going to

20 come down to how you each independently decide to

21 certify and weigh our risks and our options. So even

22 if I told you today wholesale, which is not the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

276

1 Department's position today, but if I told you

2 wholesale will take your list, you know, one

3 manufacturer still may do 100. The next manufacturer

4 may do 400. I can see that just by looking at the age

5 of our directory. One person does 1,400 and another

6 person does 200. You know, ten percent of those two

7 numbers is very different, but that is what you weigh.

8 I am not sure that your resolution of that list is

9 going to change. This is really about how you are

10 going to implement that, I mean, I guess. And it is

11 on a manufacturer-to- manufacturer basis.

12 MR. DOPPEL: We just pulled the ten percent

13 out of the air the other day.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: You did because it has to be

15 something that the Department -- you know, at this

16 point because you guys want to be able to say, "I want

17 to be at the first test for some of them"; whereas,

18 our position was we think we can do the first test

19 without the manufacturer except for the few conditions

20 and then give you the auto retest, which automatically

21 allows you to be there in the cases where there may be

22 an issue. But we heard concerns still with that. So
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

277

1 we are trying to get some middle ground here, but that

2 middle ground to alleviate our concerns is going to

3 have to be pretty narrow.

4 MR. DOPPEL: Yes.

5 MR. WHITWELL: I think the issue, at least

6 for me, is that we might have a new product line that

7 would represent a number of different capacity sizes.

8 And it could range across a fairly wide range of our

9 capacities that we have above 65,000 BTU per hour. It

10 could be more than ten percent.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: And you going to have to --

12 MR. WHITWELL: And then we are going to have

13 to guess, well, which one might DOE pick? And you

14 might pick one that we --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm guessing like --

16 MR. WHITWELL: I'm just running that out.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ten percent is not going to

18 be more than these models that you would certify.

19 MR. WHITWELL: Well, I mean at times. I

20 mean, we've got 20. It depends on what the base model

21 -- I mean, we've got, --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Keep in mind here heaven is
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

278

1 a little practical, too.

2 MR. WHITWELL: -- say, 20 different classes.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not going to come tell

4 you I want your most expensive bells and whistles

5 unit.

6 MR. WHITWELL: No, but I am assuming --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I could, but --

8 MS. HOOTMAN: Once you saw it; right?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I may decide to use my

10 resources a little differently.

11 MR. CYMBALSKY: We don't let the Pentagon

12 pass on that.

13 MR. WHITWELL: Yes.

14 I am assuming that the bells and whistles

15 are outside of the basic model.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. You are going to have

17 to maintain your -- I mean, to the extent you guys

18 want this, it is fine, but you are always going to

19 have to maintain that ten percent. And each time you

20 come out with a new product or product line or

21 innovative technology or discontinue one or bring one

22 in, it is a rolling thing to check the box or uncheck
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

279

1 the box or keep track of that.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And you still have if it's not

3 there and you are right there --

4 MR. WHITWELL: I agree. I am just thinking

5 about --

6 MS. BARHYDT: -- the first test, you get a

7 retest.

8 MR. WHITWELL: For me, I don't think it's so

9 much of an issue --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: You get the --

11 MR. WHITWELL: -- but other people raised

12 this concern and I am trying to represent them.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right.

14 MS. BARHYDT: But there are no --

15 MR. DOPPEL: Fifteen percent would be nice

16 middle ground between 20 and 10.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yours are always there.

18 Fair?

19 MR. WHITWELL: I don't know. I am not sure.

20 MR. STANONIK: Would it make any difference

21 if this criteria were applied to X percent of basic

22 model groups?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

280

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are not going to use a

2 new term. We need to be able to have a term that we -

3 -

4 MR. RIVEST: And relate to the database

5 because --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, our database.

7 MR. STANONIK: Wait a minute. But if I have

8 applied an AEDM; right, I have an AEDM --

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: There will be no such thing

10 as basic model groups in our regs.

11 MR. STANONIK: Okay. Fair enough.

12 Here's my point. Here's my point. I use an

13 AEDM; right?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

15 MR. STANONIK: And it does encompass this

16 range of models. It will have different efficiency

17 ratings.

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely.

19 MR. STANONIK: All right? And I might feel

20 that for that particular set of models that comes with

21 that AEDM, if DOE tests any one of those because they

22 are all suspect once I test one; right, I want to be
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

281

1 present.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I get it. I really do get

3 it. I understand --

4 MR. STANONIK: Okay.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- what you guys are saying,

6 but I think --

7 MR. RIVEST: He wasn't here yesterday.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: He was.

9 MS. BARHYDT: I thought he was.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: I really do get it. I

11 think, you know, for the models that don't get into

12 this bucket, you get the auto retest for. It's not

13 like we're taking away, you know -- in some instances,

14 auto retest is really probably more valuable because

15 you don't have to keep track. Some people probably

16 won't even opt to use the ten percent.

17 MR. STANONIK: Actually, where we are trying

18 to go with this, if it was based on now that he's got

19 a group with an AEDM, a number like five percent might

20 be more palatable because it still encompasses a lot

21 of models.

22 MR. MYERS: If I could restate and make sure
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

282

1 I understand what you are saying, if I could restate

2 it? If you had 20 AEDMs that you could select 5

3 percent, any model within 5 percent of those AEDMs,

4 kind of thing?

5 MR. STANONIK: Well, I was actually -- well,

6 I was still using in my mind BMGs. It would be five

7 percent of my BMGs.

8 MR. MYERS: All right. But BMGs, the

9 closest that we get to that --

10 MR. STANONIK: Right.

11 MR. MYERS: -- is AEDM bridges. You could

12 conceivably drop it down to the AHRI definition of a

13 basic model group. And that is an AEDM. The next

14 basic model group was another. You could do that.

15 MR. STANONIK: Yes except it is likely that,

16 for a lot of reasons, the gray band is going to cover

17 several BMGs.

18 MR. MYERS: It is possible.

19 MR. STANONIK: All right. No more.

20 MR. MYERS: Yes.

21 MR. THARP: Actually, I do have one

22 question. On the first option there, if a manufacturer
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

283

1 has 100 basic models, then that means they are allowed

2 to choose 10 models to use that option on. What

3 happens to the -- does not having a retest option

4 apply to the other 90 or just to the 10?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just to the ten.

6 MR. THARP: Okay.

7 MR. KLEISS: That being the case, can we

8 rephrase that?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: I need to work this in

10 anyway to like the -- I mean, I just added this as we

11 were going yesterday. It is not really within the

12 flow of things. The idea would be that you give up

13 the retest for just those you left.

14 MR. THARP: Thank you. I think it is very

15 fair.

16 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. I am fine with it.

17 MR. EISNER: So where are we now on this?

18 Are we ready to take a vote? Okay. Are you talking

19 about the whole part or do you want to go on this --

20 MR. BAUMAN: I should say, you know, I know

21 earlier we did -- I am okay. I actually would stay on

22 this one because I think it's just going to continue
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

284

1 to add more complexity and confusion later in life. I

2 would abstain one last item, but I am fine with the

3 whole thing as it is.

4 MR. EISNER: Okay. I would also raise the

5 fact that Ashley said that she is going to need to do

6 some editing in this.

7 MR. BAUMAN: Yes. Why would Ashley have to

8 do that?

9 MR. EISNER: Do people feel comfortable with

10 her doing the editing or because of the sensitivity of

11 this issue, do you want to see it after it is done?

12 We talked earlier about she could circulate this one

13 part quickly. Do others want to see it?

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm going to put this --

15 MR. MYERS: She's bringing a note here now.

16 MR. EISNER: Yes. She's making it clear

17 what she wants to change. Do you want to see the

18 change? Does anybody want to see the change?

19 Okay. Good. Okay. Let's run around all of

20 the remaining stuff. Are there any people who want to

21 abstain?

22 MS. HOOTMAN: All the way down to that
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

285

1 clarification? Yes.

2 MR. EISNER: Thank you. Does anybody

3 abstain from the vote on this?

4 No abstentions. Does anyone object to

5 including this in the report or that should come out

6 of there? Okay. I see no objections. Let's go on to

7 the next. This is your verification of laboratory

8 requirements. Now is your chance to put a vote in.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just put it here.

10 MR. EISNER: The next issue is verification

11 of laboratory requirements, one paragraph. Any

12 questions? Any comments?

13 MR. MYERS: We had the discussion yesterday

14 about what constitutes very large. And there were a

15 couple of recommendations made for commercial packaged

16 boilers and very large or large commercial water

17 heaters. To put some definition on what those are,

18 could you remind me, Ashley, where did we end up on

19 that?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, so, I mean, to the

21 extent -- I think the idea is that they cannot be

22 tested if they are a party facility. Obviously, we
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

286

1 would go to you guys. That is the idea here. There

2 is no definitive distinction between what is a large

3 commercial water heater with a large commercial

4 furnace in our regs. There is one for very large, but

5 there is not one for commercial water heater.

6 That being said, you know, what I heard from

7 Jeff and what I heard on the phone yesterday, you

8 know, the commercial packaged boilers that he is

9 concerned about, you know, that have required factory10 trained installers are, for safety issues, start-up

11 and honestly just can't be tested at a party. There

12 is no other avenue but to test at a manufacturer's

13 facility. And that is a no-brainer.

14 You know, to the point of you are just not

15 comfortable with someone testing, you know, a third

16 party laboratory testing a certain type of pilot, that

17 is a different issue.

18 MR. EISNER: Yes.

19 MR. STEPHENS: It is a part of the same

20 issue in terms of you are saying if it cannot be

21 tested, if someone is willing to build a building -- I

22 have never tested anything before, but I am going to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

287

1 build a building so that I can -- and I will test

2 according to that requirement.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, that gets to Mary's

4 point yesterday of maybe we should consider laboratory

5 accreditation requirements.

6 MR. STEPHENS: And a number of us

7 manufacturers are satellite facilities of, say, you

8 know, 25 labs.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. But if you are telling

10 me that you are a satellite facility but that primary

11 lab can't test, I have an issue with their being the -

12 - in your facility.

13 MR. STEPHENS: It isn't that they can't read

14 the standards and go down and check off those items,

15 but, as we described in --

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: If they can't implement the

17 test and run the DOE test procedure, how can they

18 audit your facility to be able to?

19 MR. STEPHENS: It is a BTU or a water --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: If they can't, we cannot,

21 people are not capable of running the test, we will

22 got you, no issue. But, just because you are making a
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

288

1 judgment that they are not capable --

2 MR. THARP: No, no, no. The difference

3 between capable and --

4 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I mean, if they are

5 your auditor and you're telling me you're not

6 comfortable with testing, then how are you comfortable

7 with them being your auditor?

8 MR. MYERS: As I mentioned yesterday or

9 maybe it was the last meeting, we trained a number of

10 those to try to help them know how to test with the

11 kind of equipment that we provide. And so here we are

12 taking it from the trainer and giving it to somebody

13 who really doesn't -- the reason we train them is they

14 almost never run the tests themselves, almost never.

15 It is always done in the manufacturer's facility. So

16 their experience level in the details of how do you

17 set up, how you would make decisions on implementing

18 the test into your equipment --

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: But they are confident

20 enough to tell you you are able to run the test

21 correctly.

22 MR. MYERS: 170.25 speaks to a training
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

289

1 program. It does not --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: I agree. I understand. But

3 you are arguing for you are a manufacturer witness.

4 And that goes beyond just 170.25. I mean, you have to

5 have a certain test procedure in your scope. They

6 have to come audit and watch you do it and go through

7 it. So for you to tell me your auditor is not

8 competent enough in running it, yet, they're confident

9 enough in telling you you can, I have a fundamental

10 issue there.

11 MR. MYERS: I would say that is a lack

12 of familiarity with 170.25 because 170.25 is a

13 procedural

14 --

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: And I understand. I

16 understand exactly what it is.

17 MR. MYERS: And I can tell you that there

18 are not just one but several laboratories that are

19 170.25 and have satellite facilities that are --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I want to --

21 MR. MYERS: -- 170.25 for them.

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, through this --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

290

1 MS. BARHYDT: People are --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. I want to get through

3 this before people leave.

4 MR. STANONIK: Can I suggest an alternative

5 because you --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I am not ready to draw a

7 line. So if we are suggesting lines --

8 MR. STANONIK: No, no, no. But, I mean, you

9 have stated more than once that it is obvious to DOE

10 that if the third party doesn't have the facilities to

11 test, you are out of the outfit. I am suggesting

12 basically making that a direct statement.

13 So what I would suggest is the first part

14 you have there, it would read the same, "All

15 verification tests should be conducted at third party

16 testing facility of DOE's choice except the following

17 commercial equipment." And then you delete everything

18 all the way from May. So it would say "The following

19 commercial equipment may be tested in a manufacturer's

20 facility upon DOE's request." And then you have the

21 4. Okay? Then you just simply add a sentence that

22 says, "Verification tests for models which exceed the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

291

1 physical capabilities of third party test facilities

2 shall be tested at the manufacturer's test facility."

3 And the facility there is -- first of all, I

4 am saying any model. You know, I have just dragged I

5 commercial refrigeration, whether you wanted it or

6 not. Basically it's a statement of fact that if you

7 are going to test a model --

8 MR. EISNER: We can just leave this one.

9 MR. STANONIK: -- and you can't test it at

10 third party because they don't have the physical

11 capability, you are going to have to test it at a

12 manufacturer's facility.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think that was --

14 MR. RIVEST: That's obvious.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's clear.

16 MR. EISNER: Well, not to these people.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: No.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: I'm just sick of sitting.

19 Sorry.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we move on. I don't

21 think we're going to -- I mean, Frank, I don't

22 disagree with you --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

292

1 MR. STANONIK: I know.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- as I just said, but I am

3 going to have to --

4 MR. EISNER: All right. Let's take a vote

5 on this one, see if there is enough to resolve this or

6 --

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the idea here is

8 that it cannot be tested at a third party test

9 facility. And we may request it to be tested at your

10 facility. I don't have your full words there, but

11 that is where we are going here.

12 MR. THARP: I'd say we just delete the

13 product classes. What if the third party labs are

14 full?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. That's fine.

16 MR. EISNER: Other concerns or objections?

17 Let's vote on inclusion of this language.

18 MR. KLEISS: As long as you remove those

19 items, do we have to remove the word "following"?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

21 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any abstentions for

22 voting on this?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

293

1 MR. HON: One question. If you go to the

2 manufacturer's facility, who is responsible for cost?

3 MR. EISNER: Who is responsible for what?

4 MR. HON: Cost.

5 MS. HOOTMAN: Good question. And how long

6 do you want to wait to get into the facility?

7 MR. RIVEST: Is that a threat?

8 MS. HOOTMAN: I am just saying they are

9 full. They are not just sitting there idle.

10 MALE SPEAKER: They are a valuable resource.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: We don't have an answer yet.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Have we not resolved that?

13 MS. HOOTMAN: Use a government test

14 facility. They have to be paid up front. Well, I want

15 to be paid up front, too.

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: We shut down a government

17 facility before we even broke ground.

18 MALE SPEAKER: Test it at your competitors.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Do we need to resolve this

20 before voting? Is this --

21 MR. HON: I was just asking a simple

22 question because we don't follow in our categories at
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

294

1 all.

2 MS. BARHYDT: I think we need an answer, but

3 I don't know whether I need it for voting.

4 MR. BAUMAN: So it says you will make clear

5 with the -- who prepares the deadlines --

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

7 MR. EISNER: Does this need to be in the

8 report to ASRAC or can this be handled separately?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

10 MR. EISNER: So does that have to be --

11 MS. DANE: And additional lab

12 certifications, too.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think we will get to

14 that in terms of when we talk about a DOE verification

15 plan. I realize we are working through a lot of the

16 issues that would be able to go over. We want to talk

17 about laboratory accreditation requirements.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Just as a placeholder.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes.

20 MS. BARHYDT: I want to make sure it doesn't

21 get lost or that we're not going to go back and

22 address
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

295

1 --

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: But I don't need to put

3 something in ASRAC right now; right? Is that okay?

4 Okay.

5 MR. EISNER: So you are not going to be --

6 this isn't going to be part of the report.

7 MR. BAUMAN: Is that a footnote that you are

8 going to make later?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to clarify it

10 at some point. It may take us a little while if we

11 have to ask like procurement and other people that --

12 MR. EISNER: It doesn't have to be in the

13 report to ASRAC? So everybody agrees on that?

14 Anybody disagrees?

15 Any abstentions?

16 Any objections to including this in the

17 report to ASRAC?

18 Okay. Unanimous vote on that. Verification

19 tolerances. How far down does this go? Okay. From

20 the chart, everybody up to -- here. Let's look at the

21 paragraphs that precede the chart. Any questions or

22 concerns about the introductory paragraph?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

296

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Do you want me to take IEER

2 out or just leave it in there.

3 MR. EISNER: Okay. Any objections? Any

4 clarifications or questions?

5 All right. Anybody abstain from voting on

6 the first two paragraphs?

7 Does anybody object to these first two

8 paragraphs being in the report to ASRAC?

9 I see no objections.

10 The chart. Anybody have any questions or

11 problems?

12 Okay. Any abstentions from voting on this?

13 Any objections?

14 I see no objections.

15 The next issue is invalid rating process.

16 Any questions or comments?

17 MR. STEPHENS: Please just use a different

18 word than "whatever."

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: What?

20 MR. STEPHENS: I have a teenage daughter.

21 So I am very sensitive to "whatever."

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Where is it?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

297

1 MR. STEPHENS: Third bullet point, second

2 line down.

3 MALE SPEAKER: And that is her answer to you

4 for most questions?

5 MR. STEPHENS: Whatever.

6 MR. EISNER: Would we do okay with "any"?

7 At least we don't have it throughout the document.

8 Any questions? Comments?

9 MR. THARP: Can you roll it up a little bit,

10 please?

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Oh, is it?

12 MR. THARP: Yes.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Sure. These are those

14 three options.

15 MR. EISNER: Okay. Does anybody want to

16 abstain from voting on this?

17 Are there any objections to including this

18 in the report to ASRAC?

19 Okay. I see this as a unanimous vote also.

20 Okay. Will this go in the report to ASRAC?

21 Okay. Is this the whole thing or --

22 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is the whole thing.
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

298

1 MR. EISNER: Any questions? Comments?

2 Concerns?

3 MR. WHITWELL: I think we still have --

4 MS. HOOTMAN: We still say a number of

5 individual models.

6 MS. ARMSTRONG: We are going to test an

7 individual model. Now, granted, it has repercussions

8 for basic models.

9 MS. HOOTMAN: That's true.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: But it's really based on how

11 many we test.

12 MALE SPEAKER: You could test three

13 individual models from a basic model.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: We wouldn't need to because

15 the whole thing is invalid for all the individual --

16 MALE SPEAKER: There would be no reason.

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: There would be no reason for

18 us to unless we needed additional samples for

19 enforcement.

20 MR. FLY: Unless you're trying to catch us,

21 one of those things that we're trying to get to --

22 MR. THARP: I would suggest that because we
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

299

1 still haven't closed out the basic model definition,

2 that the quantity numbers would be asterisks.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is not going to matter

4 because this is all going to be about how many DOE

5 tests. It's how many does DOE test. So, regardless

6 of whether you have 500 or whether you have 1,000, if

7 I decide to test, you know --

8 MR. EISNER: Yes.

9 MR. STEPHENS: Phil Stephens, HTP. On the

10 consequences, we made a lot of progress yesterday.

11 But I ran the numbers this morning. And it is pretty

12 much a flat rate, regardless of the size of the

13 business. So that means it is a significantly higher

14 burden on the smaller company than it is on the larger

15 company.

16 MR. BAUMAN: That is within the AEDM, too.

17 MR. STEPHENS: Yes.

18 MR. BAUMAN: I mean, part of that is you

19 control how many AEDMs you use, I mean, and not only

20 within that AEDM.

21 MR. STEPHENS: Within your process, you will

22 develop time and effort to making sure there's no
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

300

1 unjust burden on the smaller manufacturers, but that

2 could be an issue.

3 MR. EISNER: Could you suggest some language

4 that would satisfy you?

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, the idea here would

6 be that it is just like Jeff said. The larger

7 manufacturers may, in fact, have 50 AEDMs. So the

8 number of units that they substantiate are going to be

9 a lot larger than dealer's.

10 MR. MYERS: The larger manufacturers --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. So there are a

12 lot more units for us to pick from, too.

13 MR. MYERS: The larger manufacturers can

14 have a full-time statistician to devote to it.

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Anyways, all right. We are

16 getting towards the end here. Is this something we

17 are comfortable voting on? This is the last piece of

18 AEDMs, period.

19 MR. BAUMAN: Maybe just one quick

20 clarification. First, the consequences of the first

21 one, you have an AEDM. Two models in that AEDM have

22 been validated. Is there different testing to
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

301

1 validate the AEDMs? Okay.

2 MR. MYERS: It would be different if you

3 have a change rate in AEDMs.

4 MR. BAUMAN: But if you have two AEDMs --

5 MR. THARP: I would just suggest that we

6 leave this one for voting on the next time if we can,

7 my personal suggestion. It's only two weeks away.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Can you explain what the

9 impact of this is with basic model?

10 MR. THARP: It's a percentage of how much.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: It's not, though. It's a

12 percentage of how many I-tests.

13 MR. THARP: Right. It's a percentage, but

14 it's still a percentage of the number of models that I

15 am producing, the number of basic models.

16 MS. BARHYDT: If based on your

17 certification.

18 MR. BAUMAN: Based on how many you test, how

19 many you fail, how many are within a particular --

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, really --

21 MR. BAUMAN: If you find two that failed in

22 two different AEDMs, then you go get a --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

302

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: The real repercussion rate

2 is if you -- so say you come up with you have 500

3 basic models after we get through that list and

4 discussion; right? You decide. You whittle it down.

5 You have 500 that you want to certify. Really, I just

6 look at it, that's my options for verification. And

7 you have told me what AEDMs you use and how you apply

8 them; right?

9 MR. STANONIK: Right.

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: It is not going to give you

11 a sense of how I may make my selections.

12 MR. STANONIK: Right.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: There repercussions are

14 totally based on how I make my selections and the

15 result of those, not the options you put in front of

16 me.

17 MR. WHITWELL: Clarification question or

18 maybe we're getting into another topic here. But

19 later in the package, it talks about using the ICP

20 data in lieu of DOE testing. In that case, over a 3-

21 year period, it could be 60 units that get tested.

22 So, I mean, we're not talking about insignificant
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

303

1 numbers.

2 MR. STANONIK: Yes. And the other thing --

3 MR. WHITWELL: So I think until we work

4 through that, I am not sure that I can --

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know. You may not

6 work through that issue. You may not get to finality

7 on that issue in the month of June.

8 MR. WHITWELL: Yes. So but if we will be

9 deciding --

10 MS. ARMSTRONG: This has to go.

11 MR. WHITWELL: -- on that issue could be

12 impacted by what we decide something here.

13 MR. STANONIK: Ashley, you gave your

14 perspective. So look at the manufacturers'

15 perspective. Now we have a pretty good idea of what

16 is basic model. Now we can make from some reasonable

17 assessment how many AEDMs we actually might need to

18 cover our range of basic model. Okay? And you say,

19 oh, that doesn't affect your selection. Okay? But it

20 does affect the manufacturer because let's say I have

21 my 500 basic models and manufacturer A is fortunate

22 enough to determine I could have one AEDM for my 500
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

304

1 basic models. Okay? Well, now, what I have just done

2 is at a risk of two tests over three years. I have

3 lost my entire business.

4 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes.

5 MR. STANONIK: Am I right?

6 MS. HOOTMAN: That's right.

7 MR. STANONIK: On the other hand --

8 MS. BARHYDT: You didn't lose your whole

9 business. You don't have --

10 MR. STANONIK: I have one AEDM. I only have

11 one AEDM.

12 MS. BARHYDT: But you only have --

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Two units. And you may

14 already have that SES data.

15 MR. STANONIK: This is if they fail; right?

16 MS. BARHYDT: Yes, but the consequence is

17 different testing.

18 MS. HOOTMAN: The floor testing.

19 MS. ARMSTRONG: and we say as part of that

20 discussion it could be testing --

21 MR. STANONIK: But it still is affecting all

22 you are offering. On the other hand, I may decide
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

305

1 with this definition of basic model I can cover my

2 offering with five AEDMs, but that is all I am going

3 to need. It matters for manufacturing. I think they

4 should be given the chance at least to go over a

5 little bit before we decide what the right numbers

6 are.

7 MR. THARP: And we could take a vote and get

8 rejected. Send this part to DOE. At this point, it

9 is probably what I personally would do because I

10 personally had more conversations with others within

11 my company to make sure that they're on board with

12 this.

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't think that we are

14 opposed to necessarily leaving it on the table for the

15 beginning of the next meeting, but leaving it on the

16 table until we get through certification and

17 verification programs and industry is not an option.

18 So to us, it's you want to think about this. But,

19 remember, this says the numbers DOE has tested --

20 MR. STANONIK: Correct.

21 MS. ARMSTRONG: -- not basic models.

22 MR. STANONIK: I understand. The suggestion
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

306

1 was simply leave it as a homework assignment to be

2 considered or decided at the next meeting, which is

3 ten days away.

4 MR. EISNER: This will be the first item,

5 but that also means that DOE, as I understand it,

6 would be uncomfortable with you saying, "I can't

7 decide until we get through further discussions on

8 that."

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You would vote on it.

10 MR. EISNER: You will vote on it. You will

11 vote on it the first thing next meeting. We will not

12 proceed to anything else until we vote on this.

13 MR. KLEISS: Can this slide be sent out to

14 us in the next day or two?

15 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, the next day or two, not

16 the --

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: If I don't go to the

18 hospital tonight, I will send it tomorrow morning.

19 MR. EISNER: What Ashley and I talked about

20 earlier is in the next few days, she can get this

21 particular thing out.

22 MALE SPEAKER: Can I get a copy of that?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

307

1 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. We'll talk about it.

2 MR. EISNER: She can get --

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: We usually just distribute

4 it to the ASRAC members.

5 MR. EISNER: I thought we were talking,

6 Ashley, about circulating the whole document. And we

7 just incorporated into it --

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. I'm just going to

9 circulate the slides. Is that okay?

10 MR. EISNER: But I think --

11 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes. Other stuff --

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just the slides.

13 MS. HOOTMAN: -- whenever you --

14 MR. THARP: The last document? Send it out

15 to--

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: Well, the Word document has

17 stuff that I need to fix, and I am not going to do it

18 tonight.

19 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't care if it's stuff

20 that you have to fix.

21 MS. HOOTMAN: I will not hold you to any

22 little editorials you --
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

308

1 MR. EISNER: So let's be clear. There is

2 this document.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: And the Word file.

4 MR. EISNER: There is the Word document that

5 we have already gone through completely and have

6 reached agreement on. Then there's a third thing.

7 And it's the stuff that Ashley put together from

8 yesterday's and today's conversations that she will

9 get out to you very shortly so we can go back to this

10 at the next meeting.

11 And what are you talking about in terms of

12 timeline for all three of those?

13 MS. ARMSTRONG: We'll get out this slide and

14 this voting document tomorrow, tomorrow morning.

15 MR. EISNER: And simply copies of what you

16 put up on the screen this morning, what we voted on,

17 we went through and answered all the questions, you

18 guys didn't want to take these issues on. When can

19 you get that document out?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I think open is this;

21 right? And since I have it and paste it from the

22 email you sent me, do you need it in a Word file?
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

309

1 MALE SPEAKER: That would be great.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: This came from you.

3 MR. EISNER: Copy that into the rest of the

4 document.

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. This is separate. This

6 is a separate issue.

7 Can you send me the furnace definition?

8 MR. AMRANE: That's what we will work on.

9 We will make it.

10 MR. WHITWELL: Furnace definition? I think

11 everyone knows what that is.

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: And if you want me to put

13 the five basic model definitions that we agreed to

14 tentatively and one that we're working on still --

15 MR. WHITWELL: Okay.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: And then there are three

17 that are out, potentially three that are outstanding.

18 Okay. Give me another day or so, next week probably,

19 early next week.

20 MR. EISNER: Anything else we need to

21 discuss today?

22 MR. AMRANE: Yes. We need to discuss the
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

310

1 next meetings because the announcement that was sent

2 out is saying that the first day is going to be a --

3 MR. JOHNSON: There was a note what's his

4 name just sent out a, Neil, --

5 MR. AMRANE: Yes.

6 MR. JOHNSON: -- clarifying that. The

7 second day is --

8 MR. AMRANE: I know, but the first day --

9 MR. STANONIK: He sent a follow-up that we

10 have both days available. I've been told that --

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's fine. We can send

12 out another note, both days of the meeting.

13 MR. EISNER: All right. I think you guys

14 are done.

15 (Whereupon, at 2:41 p.m., the

16 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking

17 Federal Advisory Committee Meeting was

18 concluded.)

19

20

21

22
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 

2 

3 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

11 interest in this proceeding. 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

tJ~ --(~ NATALIA THOMAS 

Digital Court Reporter 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 

311 
Capital Reporting Company 

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013 

1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

2 

3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 

5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 

6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 

7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 

8 complete transcription of said proceeding. 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

~~ 14 Date 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

l~ I 'Zo\~ ~J-0~ __ SARAH VEACH 

Transcriptionist 

(866) 448 - DEPO 

www.CapitaIReportingCompany.com © 2013 

312 
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 1

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

0

00 44:10

1

1 78:22 149:14

1,000 299:6

1,400 276:5

10 76:18 79:1

149:19 161:17

252:13 274:5

275:5 279:16

283:2,4

100 122:10 135:6

276:3 283:1

10-11 222:18

10-ton 24:11 25:3

11 76:18 161:18

222:16,19

11.0 74:12

11:00 162:14

11:19 165:15

11:45 164:13

115,000 25:2

12 38:19 69:20

222:16 274:19

12:00 162:16

165:13

12:26 165:15

12:30 162:16

120,000 24:11 25:2

13 208:10

14th 1:7

15 79:1 84:15

121:10 161:20

237:16 275:6

15-minute 105:5

170.25 288:22

289:4,12,19,21

18 26:18

19.1 194:19

19.92 194:17

2

2 78:22 107:22

140:3 245:2

2:00 271:5

2:41 310:15

20 26:19 77:13

84:16 85:20

161:21 165:13

237:16 274:19

275:8 277:20

278:2 279:16

282:2

200 135:20,22

276:6

20045 1:9

2007 182:10

2010 23:17

2011 182:1

2013 1:11

205 98:9

20-degree 185:1

230-volt 202:17

2420 191:20

25 254:4 257:5

287:8

3

3 107:22 121:9

202:17 245:12

246:17

247:17,19,22

248:2 302:20

30 1:11 90:16

92:2,22 98:17

105:15 111:7

121:7 131:12

138:3 140:17

154:21 161:21

300 135:9,21,22

325 155:21

326 155:21

34 201:4

340 24:17,19

348-360 22:17

360 24:20

365 190:1 198:7

38 201:16

3-phase 202:18

217:14

3-ton 155:20

4

4 60:8,9

248:4,10,15

290:21

4:00 158:7

40 98:17 155:20

400 135:21 276:4

400-degree 125:16

40-ton 25:15

40-watt 155:19

41-degree 201:1

429.14 271:8

45 85:22

45-degree 190:2

460-volt 202:18

5

5 60:9 248:16,21

250:5,8 254:4

275:6 282:2,3

50 300:7

500 174:22 274:4,5

299:6 302:2,5

303:21,22

500,000 175:3

529 1:7

54,000 69:20

55-degree 149:13

56 149:13

5-horsepower

138:2

6

6 60:9

60 57:14 150:20

302:21

600 1:8

65 217:15

65,000 277:9

67 68:6

7

7 60:9 181:22

7:45 158:3

75 121:11

8

8 60:9

8:00 162:15

8:07 1:12

80 197:8

80.67 127:7,9

80/20 197:5
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 2

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

8064 64:9

9

90 149:18 283:4

90.1 69:18 149:22

95 190:2 252:11,13

A

a.m 1:12 158:8

165:15

A/C 35:16 148:16

AAON 2:14 52:3

116:22

AAONians 135:18

ability 76:4 107:17

148:20 267:22

able 68:4 101:4

138:15 161:22

173:3 176:9

212:19 261:18

270:21 276:16

280:2 287:18

288:20 294:16

absolutely 20:6

91:9 94:9 104:17

112:8,13

114:15,17

160:17 167:21

235:14 240:16

262:18 266:22

267:7 280:14,18

300:11

abstain 210:12

232:16,21 242:9

243:8,11,22

244:10 245:2

247:20

248:12,19

273:11 284:2,21

285:3 296:5

297:16

abstained 243:10

abstaining 242:11

243:21 247:21

abstention 210:22

248:3,20

abstentions

211:1,10,18

214:13,22

220:16 233:19

234:5 242:19

243:20 245:14

248:20 250:6

260:10,21 285:4

292:21 295:15

296:12

academic 94:15

accept 100:15

acceptable 38:12

74:2 75:18

accepted 34:20

46:19

accepting 32:15

49:10

accessible 155:4

accessories 102:3

accessory

163:18,21

accommodate

151:12

accommodations

247:3

accomplish 21:14

100:10

accomplished 99:3

accordance 14:11

17:10 212:10,16

267:9 271:13

according 287:2

accordingly 109:3

account 96:5

184:1

accounted 130:4

accreditation

287:5 294:17

accurate 107:14

257:4 311:8

accurately 184:19

accusing 66:21

acetic 79:5

achieve 99:2

acid 79:5

across 33:5 71:11

84:2,22 88:15

156:18

181:20,21

190:14 253:17

254:15 277:8

across-the-board

188:1 202:22

acrylic 73:15

Act 268:2

action 93:6

active 270:6

actor 85:6

actors 83:21

actual 24:12,14

36:1 37:7 44:16

66:10 81:18

98:3,7 104:8

107:18 118:17

actuality 65:19

104:6

actually 7:10

14:10 18:15

19:16 23:17

24:21 34:3 43:10

46:7 49:19 54:22

62:18 65:12,19

67:2,9,10,13,16

70:10 72:12

77:19,20 94:2

95:8,19 98:9

100:14 104:11

107:7,9,16 119:5

126:14 128:5

130:17 134:6

138:11 140:12

143:17 155:2

170:4 173:2

181:12 182:22

185:16 201:8

203:21 207:14

209:9 212:2

221:19 240:5

255:20 270:14

281:17 282:5,21

283:21 303:17

add 21:16 22:10

57:16 78:5 96:4

121:12 122:3

134:4,5

137:10,11,15

146:17 147:11

156:13 161:3

162:5 202:14

214:1 221:7

226:5,6 228:6,8

230:10 236:17

241:5 245:5

250:9,18 251:3,4

269:15 284:1

290:21

added 8:21 16:10

62:7 95:11,15

102:12,14,21

103:3,6,8,9

148:1 158:1

163:11 216:18

219:4 227:12

231:5 283:10
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 3

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

adding 93:20

95:10 97:15

127:3 133:19

137:13

146:13,14

147:14 163:17

212:14,17

addition 229:21

additional

12:2,13,15

15:10,18 53:13

94:3 110:19

121:3

126:13,16,21

127:1 131:21

154:3 156:7

262:9,13 263:2

267:1 294:11

298:18

additive 44:5

57:15 78:5 152:7

add-ons 4:3

address 62:9 86:2

101:6 109:6

111:11,17

116:18,19

134:8,9,10

247:13 294:22

addressed

163:14,17

164:2,10 201:9

214:3

addressing 124:16

143:19,20

adds 95:14 102:22

119:22 145:14

adequate 219:8

adjective 85:21

86:1

adjust 28:15 97:13

adjustment 140:19

adjustments 28:16

80:1,7

adopt 131:5

156:13 205:10

adopted 131:2

adoption 131:2

advanced 138:9

advantage 26:13

advertising 178:22

Advisory 1:4

310:17

advocate 14:17

74:11 88:16

AEDM 12:5,6,7

13:15,16

18:11,19

40:12,16 42:18

78:2 110:19

165:1 167:10

172:14,15

173:1,12 177:6

209:7 211:4,6

216:15,21

217:22 218:2,4

219:18,19 228:8

230:14,16

236:13

239:18,20 240:8

241:5 242:6

245:5 250:11

252:19 254:5,8

256:8 257:3,4

260:14

280:8,13,21

281:19

282:11,13

299:16,20

300:21 303:22

304:10,11

AEDMs 78:6

107:21 165:4

176:22 211:13

216:6,8 217:4,18

224:4

228:9,20,21

230:12 282:2,3

299:19 300:7,18

301:1,3,4,22

302:7 303:17

305:2

affect 9:5 206:10

303:19,20

affecting 304:21

affects 10:2 57:4

176:15

after-market 87:9

afternoon 165:9

against 26:12

119:6 133:9

age 276:4

agency 91:6

agenda 19:3

ago 85:22 123:17

agreed 6:11

108:14 163:2

220:22 221:7

226:18,19

229:20 252:22

254:14 309:13

agreed-to 22:11

agreeing 71:2

117:7

agreement 220:17

228:7,19 229:3

259:18 308:6

ahead 43:9,12

75:15 168:20,21

200:14 212:5

223:20 251:11

271:4

AHRI 2:6 3:12

6:18 7:2 48:6

64:3 101:7,13

164:17 176:6

189:22 190:1

198:7 205:11

238:15 248:7

252:10 262:22

282:12

aim 260:8

air 10:17 57:14

59:2 60:14,19

61:8

64:9,13,14,15,22

65:5,13 68:2

95:11,16 98:5

106:16 119:13

120:2,4 121:4

122:10 123:6

125:16

126:7,16,19,20,2

2 127:21 128:1

131:5,9,10

132:2,8 134:21

141:15,21

142:7,8,16

143:18,20 144:3

146:6,7,15

149:10,13

150:13 153:14

155:11 156:16

157:1,7,12 174:7

177:17 188:6

189:18 193:6

194:14

196:10,11,12,14

211:16 214:20

215:7 276:13

Air-Conditioning

2:5,10 3:11

air-cooled 207:1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 4

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

air-moving 189:19

airstream 55:13

56:7,8 57:12

123:1 125:18

126:13 127:1

133:8 137:11

154:8

air-to-air 29:19,21

alleviate 40:21

277:2

alley 187:12

Alliance 3:13

allow 42:4 87:6

100:4 101:1

121:3 209:12

allowance 211:13

allowed 38:17,21

39:3 230:13

283:1

allowing 38:18

217:4 236:11

256:2

allows 40:21 97:11

113:10,12 121:4

127:20 128:1

239:7 276:21

alone 126:2 198:1

already 22:16,21

70:8 119:19

150:8 173:21

196:4 230:22

304:14 308:5

alter 12:8

alternate 123:4

212:18 213:12

alternative 133:13

202:2 290:4

altitude 9:3

aluminum 30:1,18

31:10,19 35:3

36:13,15 37:19

40:6,11,15,16,17

122:17

am 10:12 16:16

20:2 21:11 28:18

35:10 36:16

37:2,5 42:3

43:2,13

44:5,11,12

45:10,11,18

48:13 52:16

55:22 65:11

70:10 71:13

76:18 77:7,13

81:7,10 83:1

86:10 89:22 90:3

94:18 99:18

102:16 104:14

111:14 117:21

130:6 134:17

137:7 149:8

152:11 155:17

161:21 166:13

168:9 170:2,5,7

171:8 176:1

177:9,10 179:8

181:14 186:18

187:4 188:13

189:14 190:9

194:7 195:6,15

197:10

202:21,22

214:4,6 216:12

217:1 224:5

234:22 255:4,14

276:8 278:3,6,14

279:4,12,19

283:16,21 284:2

286:22 290:6,11

291:4 292:2

293:8 296:21

301:15 303:4

304:5 305:2

307:17 311:8

312:3

ambient 121:4

amend 205:2

amendment 250:8

American 1:6 3:8

amount 10:4

107:13 176:18

amps 55:15

Amrane 2:5 24:18

29:9,12,14

41:16,19 48:5,12

49:1,15

56:5,9,13 61:6

62:20

63:1,6,14,20

65:21 75:5,10

76:21 77:1,5,7

82:13 83:4,17

85:7 87:5 94:15

97:20 98:8,13

110:9,16,21

111:11 143:4

163:9 164:4,7

194:16,21

198:3,6 202:5,8

207:4,8 217:22

218:5,7

222:5,9,17 223:9

224:1 225:4,9

251:9

252:10,16,21

253:5,20 254:1

256:18

257:15,18,21

258:2 267:12,15

309:8,22 310:5,8

analysis 79:20

109:2 110:3,8

113:2

analyze 20:8 110:1

and/or 72:11

154:14

announcement

310:1

annual 118:17

answer 19:1 54:17

90:6 102:9 188:1

190:7 200:16

203:1 265:20

266:2 293:11

294:2 297:3

answered 246:16

308:17

answers 111:14

anticipated 260:5

anybody 51:15

62:3 106:12

162:12 204:22

209:19 210:9,12

215:1 225:2

228:18

229:2,5,14

232:15,21 233:1

234:6 248:19

250:7 260:11

272:9 273:11

284:18 285:2

295:14

296:5,7,10

297:15

anymore 68:7

69:10 73:21

anyone 131:21

249:21 285:4

anything

4:13,15,19 23:1

35:17 46:3 47:14

79:7 89:15

102:21 126:4

137:12,14

143:15 145:6
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 5

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

152:20 153:10

155:9 156:7

162:12 163:4,7

166:7 168:18

184:15 191:18

192:16 199:16

206:16 210:10

227:21

231:10,11

246:13 269:2

286:22 306:12

309:20

anyway 16:12 87:8

94:18 122:1

151:4 283:10

Anyways 300:15

anywhere 176:6

apart 124:5

apologize 243:5

apples 98:6

appliance 1:3

16:18 188:11,12

310:16

appliances 188:16

189:5

applicability

183:16 188:2

applicable 41:3

110:5,6 111:2

184:4 198:15

202:15 207:12

211:4,12 213:1

214:17 234:19

247:14

271:18,19 272:2

application

36:1,18 91:7

112:10 127:11

129:15 134:22

137:20 140:6,8

260:13

applications 16:10

30:16 31:3,7

52:19 71:16 73:1

78:21 106:1,7

113:6 120:6

129:9,13 137:21

138:6 144:6,18

196:5 197:3

applicationspecific 88:18

applied 7:2 30:8

34:10 42:8 66:10

77:19 99:12,13

121:16 127:20

279:21 280:8

applies 18:4 97:10

152:15 213:5

apply 18:4,19

45:12 104:1

106:11 157:14

173:3,11 177:6

207:2,5 216:22

251:16 253:6

283:4 302:7

applying 49:2 81:2

Appreciate 136:18

approach 71:11

90:5 106:2

113:18,22 114:6

116:13,18

126:10 138:15

188:18

approaches 124:1

approaching

35:20

appropriate 67:20

99:4,14 109:6

110:8 221:8

241:6 247:1

271:14

approval 212:12

219:2 227:16

229:7 232:15

approve 227:16

approved 212:17

213:11 214:9

234:8

approximation

95:4

arbitration 122:13

area 88:12 189:10

argue 95:14

198:14

arguing 289:3

argument 103:16

275:16

Armstrong 2:7

4:4,8,10,12,15,1

9 5:12,14,17

6:3,6,9,12,21

7:6,13,21

8:4,10,13,17

9:1,17 10:17,20

11:3,7

12:6,9,11,13,18

13:7,16

14:3,13,17

15:4,16,21

16:19,22

17:3,9,13,21

19:1,5

20:1,6,10,16,19

21:3,10,18

22:2,5,8,19

23:4,10 27:14

28:3,17,20

31:9,13,18

32:2,8,12,16,19

33:1,18 37:17

39:11,17,20 40:4

41:18 42:1,13,17

43:2,15

45:13,16,18

48:1,7,10,13,22

49:2 50:22 51:10

55:1 58:7,13

59:15,19,21

70:10 74:6,10,18

75:3 76:1,16,22

77:4,6,10 84:5,9

85:13,15,19

86:10,13,22

87:11,14,19

88:21 90:10,14

91:15

92:5,10,18,21

93:8 103:14

104:19 108:7

109:18

110:12,18,22

111:13

112:6,8,12,15

113:9 114:15,17

116:6,9

117:9,13,18

128:20 129:1

130:3

136:12,14,18

138:11,19,22

139:2,8,12,19

140:3,7,15,20

141:6,10,12

143:8 146:19

147:3,17,20

158:18

159:18,22

160:14,21 161:9

163:2,13

164:5,8,15,20

165:11,17

166:14,16,21

167:21

168:4,7,15

169:4,6,12,14,20

170:1,3,8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 6

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

171:4,8,20

172:12,21

173:5,9,15,19

174:1,4,8,11,18

175:4,18

176:12,19

177:12,18,20

178:16

179:3,5,15,19

180:1,4,7,12,17,

22 181:3,7

182:8,11,13,15,1

7 183:5,8,14,20

184:9,17

185:2,6,8,13,15,

19,21

186:3,8,11,15

187:2,8,13,20

189:11

190:5,14,21

191:6,10,13,19

192:5,10,17

193:2,8,14,18

194:4,20

195:1,11 196:7

197:6,9,15

198:10,18

199:2,4,6

200:8,12,14,19

201:7,12,17

202:1,7,9,21

203:13,17

204:9,11

205:2,6,13,15,21

206:12,18,21

207:7,10

208:1,7,13,18

209:3,6,15,21

211:7,21 212:3,5

213:6,13,15,19

214:4,8,11,16

215:10,12,14,17

216:10,19

217:5,11,17,20

218:1,8,13

219:3,9,13,22

220:2,7,9

221:5,11,15,22

222:4,6,12

223:4,11,22

224:5

226:11,15,22

231:7,14,16

232:2,13

233:2,5,10,13,17

234:3,11,14

235:2,5,9,14,16

236:9,15,18,20

237:13,19,22

238:4,9,12,22

239:3,10,16,20

241:3,7,11,16,20

242:20

243:10,12,18

244:3,5,11,15,18

,22 245:7,15,21

246:2,4,12,14

247:2,22 248:6

249:2,4,12,15,18

250:16,19

251:2,6,17,21

252:4,14,18,22

253:2,10,12,15,2

2 254:3,6,10,14

255:8,11

256:12,16

257:1,7,11,17,22

258:3,10,13,16,2

0 259:3,7,10

260:1,3,8,16,19

261:3,6,9

263:8,12,18

264:4,6,10

265:6,18,20

266:1,7,10,22

267:3,7,14

268:16

269:7,10,13,18

270:4,21

271:2,5,10,15,18

272:4,14,17,21

273:7,9,17,19

274:3,8,13,16

275:17 276:14

277:11,15,17,22

278:3,7,9,16

279:10,13,17

280:1,6,9,14,18

281:2,5,8,10

283:5,9 284:14

285:9,20

287:3,9,16,20

288:4,19

289:2,15,20,22

290:2,6

291:13,15,17,20

292:2,7,15,20

293:11

294:6,9,13,19

295:2,9

296:1,19,22

297:11,13,22

298:6,10,14,17

299:3

300:5,11,15

301:11,20

302:1,10,13

303:5,10

304:13,19

305:13,21

306:9,17

307:1,3,8,12,16

308:3,13,20

309:2,5,12,16

310:11

Ashley 2:7 5:11,16

14:10 17:20

46:16 58:12 90:7

158:11 189:13

212:21 216:18

218:18 221:1,6

224:19 226:5

227:22 228:3,16

229:15 230:3

231:9 232:9

242:5 249:22

250:1,2,8 260:7

269:9 284:5,7

285:18 303:13

306:19 307:6

308:7

Ashley.Armstrong

@ee.doe.gov

5:12,14

ASHRAE 151:8

235:8,9,11

241:16

ASHRAE's 151:6

aspect 231:9

ASRAC 165:5

221:13

222:3,5,14,21

223:17 224:9

226:17 234:7

248:2,15,22

260:12 261:1

273:13 275:12

294:8

295:3,13,17

296:8 297:18,20

307:4

assessed 11:9

assessment 271:8

303:17

assignment 306:1

associated 7:15

153:8,9 155:7,13

270:1

assume 103:6,21

176:19

assuming 36:9

167:19 176:1

226:17 278:6,14

assumption 42:10
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 7

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

250:19

asterisk 37:19

38:5,11,14

39:2,9,13 43:20

46:18

asterisked 37:21

asterisks 38:10

44:13 47:7,18,20

48:17 299:2

ASTM 82:21

attached 193:7

attempt 117:1

attention 21:5,7

attenuation 131:3

attorney 180:15

attributed 39:4

audio 49:17 212:9

audit 287:18 289:6

auditing 60:5

auditor 288:5,7

289:7

authority 62:15

75:4 103:7 240:1

auto 276:20

281:12,14

automatic 148:13

automatically

276:20

automobile 120:15

available 69:4,9

267:21 270:15

310:10

avenue 286:12

avenues 112:1,22

average 88:14,22

92:17 169:18

avoid 177:11

avoided 103:17

avoiding 100:17

aware 112:16

163:19

away 57:9 146:2

160:5 164:22

165:4,7 220:12

226:12 233:6

259:11 281:13

301:7 306:3

awkward 88:6

A-Z 44:8

B

babies 54:9

background

209:18 210:7,9

bacteria 144:13

bad 52:8 82:11

83:21 85:6

bag 67:17 191:18

baked 73:16,20

balance 179:9

ball 121:5

Ballo 2:8 35:13

36:16 51:17 62:8

82:6 83:1 93:9

band 282:16

bang 66:9

Barhydt 2:9 12:4

30:15,22 38:13

39:7,10,19 43:12

44:16 45:5

103:10,12

113:15 162:8,18

177:13,15

178:13,21

179:4,6,10,20

181:5,8,22

182:12 185:20

186:9 212:1,2,21

213:7,9,21

221:9,14 228:11

234:2 239:8,18

241:5,14

243:13,19 245:6

251:18 257:13

258:22 259:6

261:8,20 262:1,5

267:16

268:14,18 269:1

270:3,16

271:9,20 273:6,8

275:12

279:2,6,14 281:9

290:1 293:12,19

294:2,18,20

301:8,16

304:8,12,16

base 40:14 74:11

78:6 80:2,3 83:4

91:21

92:7,9,11,15

93:12,19 96:2,3

97:1 100:13

101:6,13,15,16

108:9,14,19

109:14 138:2

161:16 169:2

277:20

based 9:4 12:1

18:6 78:8 96:16

98:20 103:21

108:14 118:15

130:10 199:11

209:22 240:8

256:12,14,15

274:3 281:18

298:10

301:16,18

302:14

baseline 90:10,12

bases 207:13

basic 5:20 6:9

7:2,4,15,16

11:1,11,17,18

21:9 23:2,12

24:7 25:4

38:8,15 39:3,14

40:18 44:21

45:20 46:21

47:14,21 62:10

63:7 64:4 74:1

77:1 78:7 81:18

85:3,4,5,10 86:6

89:7,8 90:8

99:10,15,21,22

100:19 103:1

118:10,15

144:19,21 145:2

163:3,6,11

164:19 165:1,18

166:9,18

167:1,4,5,8

168:3,7

172:18,19,20

174:17 176:14

178:3 182:15

187:21

202:14,18

203:8,15 204:11

205:3,10 206:3,5

209:20 233:7,16

237:4,15 238:7

240:13,19 241:2

246:9 248:7

256:17 270:2

274:9,21 278:15

279:21 280:10

282:13,14 283:1

298:8,13 299:1

301:9,15 302:3

303:16,18,21

304:1 305:1,21

309:13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 8

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

basically 42:5

44:20 47:18 52:4

121:3 122:16

129:17 133:7

157:8 166:8

173:21 206:1

290:12 291:6

basis 118:17

215:22 216:3

228:8 276:11

bathroom 142:12

baths 148:7

battery 10:19

188:3

Bauman 2:10

172:13

173:4,8,14,17,20

174:3,16,19

242:22

243:3,5,8,15

245:4,8

249:3,6,14,16,19

250:2 259:21

260:2,4,7 283:20

284:7 294:4

295:7 299:16,18

300:19

301:4,18,21

beat 120:3

beating 87:2

become 62:5

126:17 147:21

becomes 15:3 70:3

86:6 124:5

173:20 201:20

202:2

becoming 187:20

bed 117:1

beginning 28:14

305:15

behind 104:7

105:11 117:16

173:16

believe 91:13,14

111:8 120:5

122:7 184:18

228:19 229:3

269:4

bells 278:4,14

belongs 135:16

benchmark 107:4

benefit 31:4 69:8

70:18 109:12

128:16

148:3,4,16

270:12

benefits 15:9

105:20 106:19

110:1

best 148:5,13

176:20,21

198:14

bet 104:15

better 10:13 30:11

31:14,17,21,22

32:3,21 66:19

67:10,12 74:14

93:21 100:1

102:22 105:21

115:2 116:3

135:3 150:11

160:21 186:19

222:9 225:5

232:13 256:3

beyond 36:20

289:4

bigger 53:16

153:20

biggest 74:21

billing 127:5

bills 89:18

bird 144:7 145:4

birds 145:4

bit 18:17 23:14,21

30:10 66:13

81:19 82:1 83:11

107:4 113:10,11

122:12 158:5

159:7 242:5

245:19 297:9

305:5

black 268:9

blah 8:9

blanket 88:3

112:2,20

blender 157:10

blenders 156:9

162:6

blink 88:6

blower 138:1,4

blowers 137:16

143:6 161:14,19

blowing 125:16

141:20

BMGs

282:6,7,8,17

BN 44:11

board 85:1 190:15

253:17 254:15

305:11

Bob 68:22 228:5

Bob's 71:10

bog 241:17

boil 122:16

boiler 6:8 106:16

122:16 136:1

boilers 5:19 7:1

8:7 9:11 163:4

188:7 214:19

285:16 286:8

bolt 124:3

bolted 126:1

bones 52:8

bothers 51:18

bottom 219:11

261:14 262:3

bouncing 120:10

box 72:20 126:1

145:3 154:1

268:9 278:22

279:1

brain 61:11,14

brainer 32:15

brainstorming

81:10

brake 148:9

brave 93:9

break 105:5

155:20 162:16

165:10

breakdown 11:1

breaks 140:19

bridges 282:11

bring 15:6,8 61:8

65:5,12,13 68:2

245:18 257:11

278:21

bringing 132:2

134:20 284:15

brings 215:2

250:11 260:13

broad 88:10

194:14 195:3

broadly 189:5
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 9

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

broke 293:17

broken 173:21

BTT 206:11

BTU 69:20 135:14

277:9 287:19

buck 66:9

bucket 54:16

135:17 281:12

bucks 75:7,10,12

bugs 120:16

build 18:20

19:13,18 56:15

89:17 183:6

286:21 287:1

building 31:5 36:1

52:22 53:2

60:5,6 62:16

65:20 66:10 69:5

93:17 94:1 95:2

96:9 97:10,12

122:1,5 134:3

137:21

141:18,22

142:11,16 143:3

153:1

154:9,14,15,17,2

1 286:21 287:1

buildings 131:5,15

150:5 156:22

build-to-order

182:20

buildup 195:20

built 18:10 19:12

62:13 138:4

194:9 195:18

265:14

bulbs 155:19

bullet 51:7 90:2

211:14,16,19

214:12,15,19

215:8

261:14,21,22

262:3,20 263:1

273:5 297:1

bullets 107:22

211:14 215:16

261:10 272:20

bunch 96:11

burden 11:5 15:11

37:14 299:14

300:1

business 45:12

91:4 92:2 111:7

113:20

114:10,21

116:15 149:8

186:12 268:5

299:13 304:3,9

buy 63:21 66:11

81:15 83:14 91:4

buying 80:18

99:15

bypass 145:7

155:14

C

CADI 194:3

calculate 55:15

calculated 274:2

calculation 55:16

107:15

California 177:19

187:1

Canada 169:9

177:17

capabilities 291:1

capability 291:11

capable 287:21

288:1,3

capacities 26:6,8

71:12 277:9

capacitor 52:5,11

56:22 57:2,8

capacitors

51:3,8,18,20,22

52:4

capacity 21:17

23:18

24:3,4,9,13,14

25:14,16 26:2,7

145:10,11,12

167:16 199:10

277:7

Capital 1:19

caption 220:4

captured 10:6

70:19 80:19

148:3

car 60:12,13 61:2

67:7,8 120:12

care 87:20 136:13

204:3 307:19

careful 163:15

204:16

carefully 224:20

Carrier 3:17 69:1

carve-out 71:16

case 6:22 7:15,16

11:15 12:1 13:3

15:15 16:2,8

18:3,19,20

19:12,17,18,20,2

2 20:4,8

24:10,12,19 26:4

34:13 45:19

64:19 81:5,9

82:21 90:17 94:6

115:13,20 116:3

126:12 130:7

163:20 167:20

168:10,11

174:14 175:8,13

178:10 182:18

190:12 193:11

197:19 201:3

203:18 223:6

240:8,12 283:7

302:20

cases 18:6,8,21

30:13

38:3,4,9,10

115:9,10,11

132:10 161:20

178:6 203:18,22

276:21

casing 196:18,19

catalog 23:17

200:17

CAT-based 88:14

catch 162:11

298:20

catcher 144:8

categories 8:20

213:17 219:20

220:1 241:1

293:22

category 58:4

124:13 137:7

161:19 172:16

187:7 207:21

234:9

cause 127:4

142:18

caused 65:2

causing 53:19

caustic 30:16,20

74:15

CCE 181:22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 10

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

CCOS 31:3 73:1

cell 51:7

center 142:10

145:4

cert 266:3

certain 13:6 47:16

52:19 79:13 88:3

106:17,20

107:12 109:19

113:5 176:3

188:14 201:13

203:2,3,17,22

227:16 267:16

275:18 286:16

289:5

certainly 31:4

82:21 106:15

CERTIFICATE

311:1 312:1

certification 49:7

101:8 167:13

172:7 178:1,9

263:6,7 264:3,8

265:16,22 266:4

269:12,16

270:3,4,9,17

274:8 301:17

305:16

certifications

274:4 294:12

certified 11:1 38:8

166:18 167:5

168:3 172:19

174:16 178:2,4

181:12 194:6

260:14,16

certify 15:8 18:18

40:13,17 44:1

46:11 49:8

101:22 166:20

167:14 181:9,12

182:21 208:9

259:4 264:13

275:21 277:18

302:5 311:5

312:3

certifying 10:11

cetera 30:17 45:21

48:18 133:6

138:2 254:18

CFR 180:8 218:16

chance 248:8

285:8 305:4

change 12:9,11

15:6 30:12 34:2

40:8,9 46:2,3,15

48:3 73:9 78:22

79:1 92:1 97:15

111:6 114:13,21

115:13 139:20

151:1 180:12

214:4 226:17

233:11,14

234:16 237:4

239:4 242:1

262:17 271:2

276:9 284:17,18

301:3

changed 70:15

126:4 148:4

228:15 243:14

246:13,14

257:15 258:1

changes

15:2,5,9,11 24:2

33:22 46:7 52:5

80:9 118:14,20

175:16

227:7,8,12,22

changing 31:13

40:20 226:18

channel 26:20

channeled 15:15

characteristics

75:21 206:9

charge 232:10

charger 188:3

Charles 2:16

255:6

Charlie 12:19

78:11 166:6

179:12

185:14,15

chart 220:14,18

226:6 228:2

232:19,20 233:3

234:6,17 242:15

245:2,10,18

247:17 248:15

251:3 253:8

295:20,21

296:10

charts 215:4

cheating 93:4

check 28:15 50:15

51:13 57:4

278:22 287:14

checked 101:12

checking 67:14

chemicals

30:17,22

chloride 122:17

choice 26:12 135:4

290:16

choose 112:4

130:16 167:15

240:7 255:15,17

283:2

choosing 98:21

111:3

circuit 148:21

circuits 101:11

circulate 223:17

224:19 229:15

284:12 307:9

circulated 207:11

225:14

circulates 249:22

circulating 307:6

circulation 17:10

circulator 16:7

circumstances

103:13 188:14

claim 13:12,14

33:21 41:13

168:15 175:2,22

186:14 269:7

claiming 92:16

claims 168:16

clarification 13:2

56:20 220:3

223:7,14 225:16

230:7 251:13

266:20 285:1

300:20 302:17

clarifications

182:18 296:4

clarified 249:5

clarify 21:15

179:14 249:6,11

295:9

clarifying 189:1

310:6

clarity 174:5

224:3,7 229:9

class 79:17 109:21

110:1,2 116:8

118:4
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 11

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

125:9,10,12

140:5 160:7

164:3 173:2

183:22 184:4

217:4 219:19

224:4 228:9,22

229:1 230:13

231:11 238:19

classes 109:1

163:14 205:7

216:7,9 218:4

219:20 228:22

230:16,17

234:10 248:5,17

274:6 278:2

292:13

classification

115:14 183:18

clause 83:20

clean 156:2

clear 16:20 27:20

45:19 48:8 80:12

99:19 100:2

180:7 190:15

213:11,13

215:21 216:2

218:11 220:7,8

224:14 225:2,19

226:11 228:13

231:10,19

235:20 284:16

291:15 294:4

308:1

clearance 229:15

clear-cut 103:13

clearer 231:20

clearly 105:2

111:1,3 204:18

Cleaver-Brooks

3:4

climate 2:22 60:8

close 7:22 41:20

117:7 222:15

253:15

254:10,15,20,22

255:16

closed 163:16

299:1

closely 41:19

closes 147:19

closest 282:9

close-to 84:12

clothes 60:18

clumps 123:19

Co 3:3

coat 79:7,8 100:17

coated 20:13 72:15

73:11 74:1,5,22

75:21 76:8,10

78:22 79:2

80:14,16 81:21

82:18 83:2,8,11

85:11,18,20

86:20 87:6 90:9

93:13 94:7

109:19,20 110:4

114:13,16

146:22

coating

20:14,15,16 30:3

72:17 73:14

74:13,15

75:13,17 78:13

79:14 82:8 83:3

coatings 31:3,7

80:8 82:22 95:13

code 45:1 151:4,12

cognizant 48:19

cognizantly 92:10

coil 20:17 25:16

26:16 27:2

30:1,2,12 31:2

36:13 44:7,8,9

68:6 72:18

73:8,9,16,20

74:1 78:18 79:14

81:21

82:8,9,16,18

87:6 93:13

94:7,14 101:9

110:4 114:13,16

119:20 120:3,16

126:13 127:12

133:7 134:20

137:4 146:22

149:4 156:19

199:9

coils 20:13,18

25:20 26:21

34:11 35:1

36:9,22 51:8

57:12 72:15

73:11 74:5 75:21

76:8,10 78:11,22

80:14,16,17,19

81:13

83:2,8,11,22

85:11,18 86:20

109:19,20

122:18 126:21

146:22 156:1

coined 164:22

cold 20:5

157:11,12

colder 18:17

collapse 20:8

college 200:4

column 158:22

combination 10:8

44:15 92:11

139:13,14

187:21 189:4

combinations 43:5

48:18 49:9 89:1

116:17 196:9

combining 187:16

comes 39:6 44:2

53:16 59:7 67:8

74:22 82:7

170:14 236:16

280:20

comfort 81:19

114:4 124:18

comfortable

111:16

113:7,18,22

115:1 121:8,12

123:9 158:20

159:8 165:7

226:7 262:20

284:9 286:15

288:6 300:17

coming 37:2 45:14

46:10 51:1,2

52:20 62:16 93:3

112:17 120:9,10

131:10 132:3

152:19 157:9

163:7

comment 29:19

58:11 61:17 69:1

71:10 106:13

113:1 179:13

212:7 226:16

230:19 234:17

261:13

commentary

112:7

comments 21:9,12

23:3,12 100:16

105:11 106:22

116:11 118:21

204:4 222:1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 12

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

224:18,20,21

225:2 226:2

240:13 250:5

285:12 296:16

297:8 298:1

commerce 11:22

93:11 98:4 178:5

179:14 180:21

181:6,10,20

182:2,6 264:9,13

commercial 6:8

22:4 29:22 71:15

88:16 108:2,11

130:9 143:6

165:19 169:22

171:1,22 189:16

194:7,14 198:15

200:21 205:4,12

207:21 208:1

211:16

214:18,19,20

215:7 218:4

245:12,17

248:4,7,16

254:13

285:15,16

286:3,5,8

290:17,19 291:5

commissioning

67:11

commitment

164:11

committed 247:15

committee 1:4

69:18 232:6,8

310:17

common 8:19

22:13 26:5,9

46:5,15,18

48:5,10 54:4

104:2 119:4

123:2 154:18

167:16

commonly

119:3,16 124:8

communicating

261:16

companies 174:21

175:7 177:22

company 1:19

52:19 53:16

174:21 175:12

176:8

178:3,4,8,19

299:14,15

305:11

comparable

25:12,20,21

26:16 27:1 29:22

54:6,7

comparatively

150:3

compare 98:6,18

99:9

compared 197:4

comparison 96:22

97:4,7 218:21

219:2

comparisons

219:1

competent 289:8

competitors 84:2

119:19 179:1,2

189:20 196:12

293:18

compile 223:16

complaining 93:5

complaint 43:4

complaints 91:7

complements

121:12

complete 29:3

312:8

completely 10:13

46:2 76:19

114:21 190:8,10

194:3 238:13

308:5

complex 116:19,20

complexity 284:1

compliance 108:15

complicated

103:14

complication

120:8

comply 62:13

93:11 212:19

257:9

complying 46:9

components 35:15

94:4 121:1 198:4

composition

249:16

compressor

148:18,21

149:4,14,16,19

150:14

compressors 25:20

59:1 125:19

148:18 150:16

computer 10:18

conceivably

282:12

concept 86:16

103:1

108:14,19,20

109:14 221:1

227:2 228:10,15

concepts 165:19

226:19 227:1

conceptual 44:18

45:2 47:10

concern 37:11

40:22 59:12

74:21 76:20 82:6

86:2 89:4 106:3

151:21 175:16

253:18 279:12

concerned 76:17

286:9

concerns 12:21

53:12 59:10

61:16 86:11

91:11 116:15

210:10 214:21

240:3 247:18

248:11,18 251:8

252:9 260:15

270:9,19 276:22

277:2 292:16

295:22 298:2

concluded 310:18

conclusion 113:3

condense 157:22

condensed 189:16

190:1

condenser 33:9

119:13,14

126:15 129:4,7

131:3 145:19

161:10,13

190:10 191:1

condensing 26:16

189:15

190:16,17

191:6,14,16

192:20 194:10

199:16

condition 139:18
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 13

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

257:6

conditioner 10:17

106:16 174:7

188:6 194:14

conditioning

123:6,21

126:7,19 211:16

215:7

conditions 26:22

27:1 68:21

79:4,13 93:18

138:8,12 139:20

140:17 155:15

157:15 201:18

202:3 276:19

condone 236:5

conducted 290:15

conference 123:8

152:21

confident 288:19

289:8

confidential

267:13

268:4,5,8,13

269:4

configuration 18:7

confirm 246:8

confused 189:14

confusing 244:6

confusion 284:1

Congress 108:12

194:17

connect 107:17

connected 53:6

125:13

connection 45:17

consensus 33:12

108:12 114:9

117:5 165:2

210:20

consent 210:16

consequence 34:21

304:16

consequences

299:10 300:20

conservative

203:22 260:17

conservatively

175:19,20

203:12

conserve 10:19

consider 15:9

57:18 58:1 80:7

88:8 147:4 160:8

241:12 287:4

consideration

145:1

considerations

88:9

considered 27:17

181:19 195:18

306:2

considering 67:19

consistent 113:4

252:12

consolidate 156:14

constitutes 285:14

construction 16:7

151:5,6

Consultants 2:15

Consulting 2:3

consume 55:18

138:18 155:12

consumer 148:16

consumers 93:5

178:14 179:3

consumption 8:9

11:19 15:10

30:14 31:5 56:6

77:2 120:7 128:5

136:1 178:3

184:19 202:20

206:10 251:21

contained 18:11

229:19

Cont'd 3:1

content 79:6

context 14:15

38:15 114:1

continually 113:13

continue 114:22

283:22

Continued 3:2

contractors 66:17

control 87:7

142:16

145:11,12 146:8

178:17,18

237:10 254:17

255:3 299:19

controlling 146:6

controls 2:22

192:2

convenience 93:19

conventional

82:16

converge 47:9

conversation 16:2

86:17

conversations

261:15 305:10

308:8

cooler 11:14 123:6

coolers 59:7

cooling 2:14 21:16

24:2,3 68:13

126:11,12

133:6,9,10

134:4,6 236:21

copied 6:1

copies 308:15

copper 20:17,18

30:2,11,18,19

31:6,14,17,19,20

34:5 35:1,2,7

36:9,14,22

40:6,11,17

44:7,8,9 51:8

73:7,9,10

copy 306:22 309:3

Corporation

3:10,17

correct 6:21 13:16

32:1,3,4 42:17

52:21 57:8 65:14

71:14 95:5

147:17 150:13

174:8,11,18

185:2 186:3

200:18,19

203:13,17

214:13 219:3

237:22 239:10

244:5 253:10,19

256:10 305:20

312:7

correcting 53:21

correction

51:3,18,20,22

52:4,10 148:6

223:6

correctly 66:17

288:21
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 14

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

correspond 228:15

corrode 30:18

corrosion

20:15,16,19 31:3

82:22 86:1

corrosive 78:20

corruption 51:8

cost 70:3 81:15

94:11 293:2,4

cost-benefit 109:2

110:3 113:2

costs 75:12 82:3

109:22 135:6

COT 247:4

Council 1:6 3:8

counsel 180:10,14

count 165:3

counted 15:18

counteract 55:12

country 93:7

197:2

couple 57:21 58:1

165:22 166:5

285:15

coupon 240:18

course 58:19 196:7

court 45:8 104:11

311:1,3,17

312:3,6

cover 196:5

229:22 272:16

282:16 303:18

305:1

coverage 130:10

183:15 184:9

197:20

covered 38:4

129:18

130:1,5,15 143:6

149:12 171:21

183:12,14,21

184:3,4,12,14

185:17 188:9

189:2,15 194:5

197:16 207:13

208:5,7 230:22

256:6

covers 37:22

189:22 228:22

cow 89:6

crack 261:19

268:21

crank 148:20,22

crappy 85:18

87:18

CRE 10:21 17:22

115:6 163:5

170:19 172:12

174:14 183:17

create 95:1

96:3,12

creates 129:16

creating 57:3

100:6

credit 109:1

criminal 51:20

criteria 106:4,6

174:22 279:21

critical 149:15

Cromer 124:3

Crosse 181:17

cross-plot

199:1,18,19

cross-plots 199:5

crummy 82:9

cumulative

147:7,10

current 69:3

129:16 134:8

141:5 185:18

212:20 259:2

currently 59:21

129:19 167:8,10

208:5,7 256:8

258:6

curve 96:13

154:11

199:17,20,21

cushion 255:18

custom 156:10,21

157:7 182:21

183:2 196:10,14

265:12

customer 30:15

34:17 35:21

36:14 44:15

113:6 115:17

159:13

175:10,11 176:2

178:6,7,10 201:5

customers 36:17

93:20 115:7,9,10

153:21 154:10

201:2,11

customized 10:3

cut 16:21 240:18

245:20

cycle 94:11

124:2,3 145:22

cycles 150:10

Cymbalsky 2:11

32:22 232:10

268:21 278:11

293:16

D

D.C 1:9

dagger 47:1,2

dah 152:9

Daikin 2:19

damage 119:6

damper 66:13

81:21 154:21

dampers 64:21

143:18 154:5,19

157:19

Dane 2:12

49:16,21

50:3,11,13,16,20

250:3 251:10,12

252:2,7 294:11

data 96:16

113:16,17,22

172:7 173:10

218:22 220:10

237:8,10 302:20

304:14

database 40:3

270:1 280:4,6

dataloggers 96:11

Date 312:14

daughter 296:20

day 46:13 114:3

226:15,20

236:12 237:3

276:13

306:14,15

309:18 310:2,7,8

days 148:17 183:5

306:3,20

310:10,12

de 114:10

dead 87:2
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 15

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

deadlines 294:5

deal 19:3 45:7

107:10 109:13

112:3 129:12,14

139:19 141:17

142:14

163:19,22

164:20 179:17

181:3 188:17

193:21,22 195:5

236:21

dealer's 300:9

dealing 112:1

114:20 116:20

dealt 111:20,21

165:20

death 123:9

debt 111:5

decade 203:6

December 4:9

decide 51:14

114:7,9,13

197:16 211:2

217:17 259:11

275:20 278:9

299:7 302:4

303:12 304:22

305:5 306:7

decided 306:2

decides 220:11

deciding 303:9

decisions 98:20

112:13 288:17

decrease 30:8 33:3

34:1,10 41:9

56:6 72:19

119:13

decreased 29:16

42:7,8 58:5,16

135:17

decreases 65:10

72:18 133:10

decreasing 30:13

116:17

decrement 81:12

default 22:21

247:6

defeat 99:18

100:4,7

defer 11:10

define 21:18

22:6,8 73:14

140:7

defined 22:16

24:16 79:17

118:4 196:18

defining 7:14

11:14

definite 35:21

definitely 17:15

41:11,14 46:11

68:19 74:15

80:11 88:16

117:22 159:2

198:16

definition 4:12

5:1,20 6:10

7:16,19,21 22:11

23:12 47:14,21

62:6,10 91:13

101:6 130:8

160:12

163:3,6,11

164:19 166:12

169:16 180:16

184:3,14 194:13

195:3 197:17

205:3,10

235:3,7,11

246:9,10 274:21

282:12 285:17

299:1 305:1

309:7,10

definitions 6:7

23:20 130:10

183:15 184:11

309:13

definitive 160:15

190:6,7 194:11

286:2

definitively 162:1

188:13 197:16

201:17

defrauding 101:4

degradated 94:7

degrade 74:16

94:13

degrading 94:14

degree 43:11

149:14 200:22

degrees 121:9

185:4 190:2

201:4

dehum 121:6,10

dehumidification

76:11 120:21

122:4 137:8

dehumidifier

123:12

dehumidifiers

123:3

delete 290:17

292:12

demagnifications

196:20

demand 176:2

denominator

26:5,9 46:15

density 30:12

101:10

dent 68:12

Department 1:1

2:7,9,11 3:7

12:17 44:2 62:15

67:19 84:14,21

86:18,21 88:5,13

98:1 102:8

112:18 114:3

117:5 178:13

188:19,22

194:12 213:4

260:9 263:14

267:20 268:7,19

270:12 276:15

Department's

90:17 109:9

111:15 276:1

dependent 81:2

184:10

depending 30:11

37:7,9 55:12

78:12 79:2 80:22

119:12 132:13

181:11 240:6

depends 30:19,22

34:16 38:3 44:14

119:18 151:6,13

187:22 206:4

251:17 252:21

267:17 268:10

277:20

derated 9:4

derivative 118:15

191:22

derived 71:13

170:10

describe 21:13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 16

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

122:12 250:1

described 144:5

287:15

description 118:1

desiccant

122:15,22 123:3

design 56:14 92:17

94:12 101:5

119:12 134:22

135:1 137:10

142:9 152:18

182:21 190:9,10

192:1 195:21

199:11 200:3

240:16,19

designed 35:3

71:15 115:9

150:22 179:17

184:22

designing 91:22

92:6

designs 81:22

119:19

desire 197:22

destroyed 80:17

detail 5:4 43:11

101:11

detailed 23:21

detailee 94:22

details 262:10,13

288:16

determination

240:12

determine 130:10

183:15 268:4

303:22

determined

238:21 239:9

detrimental 36:19

develop 29:8 82:2

299:22

developed 108:13

developing 181:16

development 3:4

181:15,19

182:3,4

device 137:8

151:14 155:3

189:19

devices

142:3,17,22

146:13,16

152:16 155:12

devil's 74:10

devote 300:14

dictate 176:22

die 149:7

difference 20:13

25:11 78:13

167:3,4 203:14

237:6 239:17

271:7 279:20

288:2

differences 169:1

different 8:20 9:7

10:7 11:22

13:10,14

18:15,16 20:21

21:1 24:7 25:16

26:2,17 30:7

34:4 41:13

46:10,20 47:21

48:16 49:9,21

51:5 61:18 79:22

88:12,22 89:8

90:4 96:4 102:19

105:16,22

109:4,15,17,22

110:3,7 111:17

112:2 116:1,16

119:17 121:1

124:17 125:8,10

129:8,9,12,13,14

,15 131:13

132:13,18

141:16 144:5

166:19 168:12

169:10 170:16

171:19,20 174:6

175:9,21

187:16,17

190:8,10

192:11,17 194:2

195:3,5 196:11

199:19 201:5,16

206:12

208:17,18 234:2

237:14,16 238:9

240:9 244:13

246:22

252:14,15,16

261:8 276:7

277:7 278:2

280:16 286:17

296:17 300:22

301:2,22 304:17

differential 33:5

differentiate 16:15

differentiation

42:15 176:4

differently 39:18

46:14 63:3 71:13

87:20 108:22

278:10

differing 206:9

difficult 37:5

63:21 78:12

difficulties 96:17

difficulty 98:16

digit 128:6 147:1

Digital 311:17

digits 44:6

diminishing

151:19

direct 290:12

directed 180:13

direction 311:7

directly 64:4

229:19

263:16,18,19

directory 6:19 7:9

37:16 47:6

256:12 276:5

disable 124:5

disaggregated

12:14

disagree 229:6

241:22 291:22

disagreements

211:9

disagrees 295:14

disallowed 38:22

discharge 146:6

150:13

disclosures 169:7

discontinue

278:21

discrete 160:15

161:5 175:22

180:18 188:9

discretion 229:2

247:10

discuss 4:2 27:4

163:5 209:18

262:9 309:21,22

discussed 166:1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 17

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

207:5 212:9,13

249:7 256:21

discussing 29:6

119:1 189:6

224:3 246:11

275:4

discussion 6:12

13:17 29:2 38:13

46:12 51:6 70:16

71:18 72:16

77:18 90:1 94:16

96:4 100:9

102:15 117:21

165:18 202:14

204:15 205:8

206:14 208:21

219:7 225:1

237:2 241:18

246:17 255:6

258:5,21

262:7,12 266:10

267:17,20

274:11 275:7

285:13 302:4

304:20

discussions 165:2

174:6 188:2,5,7

227:3 306:7

disease 156:5

diseases 144:9,13

disrespect 115:6

distinct 161:4

distinction 80:15

193:3,4 286:2

distinguish

190:8,16 191:19

195:12

distribute 11:21

264:13 307:3

distributed 182:5

distributing 178:5

180:21

distribution

181:5,10 182:1

document 91:11

209:7 210:5

212:12,22

223:1,5

224:7,15,18,19

225:5,8,14 226:8

227:10 229:6,11

232:15,18

269:17 297:7

307:6,14,16

308:2,4,14,19

309:4

documentation

269:20

documents 191:15

222:10

DOE 6:15

18:14,17 20:5

28:17 36:7 41:1

42:1 46:6,21

47:1 48:15,19

49:9,11 51:1

58:13 60:16

64:2,6 75:19

81:14,17 86:16

89:14 99:16

103:6

108:5,16,22

111:4 115:16

153:1 165:20

171:13,21

172:5,7 175:6

178:18

200:16,18

201:6,18 202:3

212:11,16 213:1

214:9 221:2

222:15 229:4

240:1 247:14

251:3 256:6

258:6 261:4

263:5,22

265:15,17

267:20 268:2

271:11,14

277:13 280:21

287:17 290:9

294:14 299:4,5

302:20 305:8,19

306:5

DOE's 5:20 6:9

27:14 33:19 42:8

43:20 62:10,19

167:4 169:2

170:11 200:22

290:16,20

done 6:18

34:19,20 53:3,15

54:22 67:15

69:6,13 70:8

79:20 87:7

94:5,10,17

100:22 101:18

104:12,16

106:19 107:5

108:8,9 112:10

113:3 116:2

140:22 158:3

162:22 173:9

202:5 203:7,8

204:5,16,18

213:21,22

225:21 228:3,11

235:4 247:8

284:11 288:15

304:1 310:14

door 115:13,14

127:20 155:2

192:9

doors

115:10,12,18,21,

22 141:19

163:20

Doppel 2:13

4:17,21 10:15

33:10 61:1 90:21

91:9 93:15 96:19

97:1,3,8,21

100:21 156:1

211:8 218:3,6

219:11

222:16,18,20

253:8 265:8

271:11,19 272:3

274:10,14,17

275:8 276:12

277:4 279:15

DOT 88:14

double 28:15

doubt 46:12

169:14 201:21

downhill 61:2

downstream 137:4

153:13,17

dozen 214:5

draft 208:14,21

225:18

dragged 291:4

draw 65:10 162:1

290:6

drawing 33:9

drive 122:21

127:19 148:8

drivers 10:6

drop 65:1,3,7,9

68:11 121:13

123:12 125:15

127:2,3 133:9

134:5,6

137:11,13

142:19 144:15

145:14
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 18

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

146:13,14,16,17

151:17 152:3

153:6

155:6,13,18

157:8,9,15,18

282:12

dropped 69:9

123:11 185:4

dry 121:5 122:22

dual 61:20 171:10

duct 129:10 131:8

152:17 154:20

ducted 129:7

ducting 129:5

132:4,7,8

ductions 142:16

ductwork 142:10

146:8 154:12,19

157:5

due 134:7

dummy 43:17

dump 145:19

dumping 148:7

150:12

during 15:6,8

127:2 162:7

E

earlier 107:4

137:19 200:16

270:13 283:21

284:12 306:20

early 162:15 212:9

309:19

Earthjustice 2:8

easier 47:4 155:5

189:8 269:19

easy 18:1 106:10

202:9

eat 79:7

economizer 59:13

60:15 61:1

62:6,17 63:2,11

64:12 67:21

68:17 69:2,19

70:4,6,11 76:12

80:12

97:11,14,15

134:14,16 142:5

144:1 152:9

economizers 9:11

58:17 59:9

60:8,10 61:18,21

62:2 67:1,2

68:20 69:8 83:11

86:18 117:6

economizing 58:21

59:1 64:18,20

Economy 1:6 3:9

edit 223:6 226:12

editing 284:6,10

editorial 224:20

editorialize 226:19

editorials 307:22

edits 223:14

ee 5:13

EER 72:19 74:16

75:6 95:3 99:9

119:15 127:5

128:18 253:19

254:9,13

effect 8:20 78:5

104:17 119:15

125:20

128:10,11 134:4

145:15 148:1

151:17 152:2,7

158:16 238:8

effective 70:4

effectively 174:9

effects 147:7,10

efficiencies 135:3

167:16 168:12

efficiency 3:13

6:20 7:4,5,11

8:8,9,21 9:5,9,21

10:2,5,16

11:13,19 12:1

13:4,5 16:9,18

24:9 26:22 78:18

79:9 80:9 81:12

88:5,15 92:15

94:1,8,13 95:17

96:20 97:3,10,22

99:10 100:1

101:17

106:17,20,21

119:15

120:17,18 128:7

130:18,20

133:10,11

134:3,7 137:13

144:3 147:1

167:6 168:13

169:2 171:13

175:2 176:1

198:3 205:20

206:7 250:20

251:22 252:11

280:16

efficient 115:21

126:17 134:3,18

135:6,8,10

168:17

efficiently 127:15

138:8,12,15,17

156:2

effort 299:22

EFRI 161:7

eight 44:12

Eighty 64:13

197:7

Eisner 2:3 4:2,6

21:5,12

22:6,10,14,16

23:1,9,11

27:3,9,12,20

28:8 29:4,15

33:12,16 45:8

50:14,21

51:5,11,19 53:12

54:11 57:22

58:9,15 59:3,6,9

61:15 71:1,6,22

72:10,15 81:3

85:21 91:5,10

92:4 99:14

100:15,22

103:5,11,15

104:13,16,22

105:5,9

106:12,22 108:4

116:11 118:5,21

119:7 120:19

127:16 129:3

131:21 133:2

135:12 136:20

137:14 141:13

143:15 144:3

145:6 152:13

154:3 155:9

156:7 161:2

162:4,12,22

165:10,12,16

171:11,16 176:8

179:12 183:1

200:9

204:4,10,12,20

207:17 209:4,17

210:1,8 211:9

213:16,22

214:6,10,12,15,1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 19

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

8 215:9,16,18

216:17,21

218:10,17

219:4,15

220:3,8,13,20

221:4,6,10

223:1,5,21

224:14 225:7,11

227:15,20

228:12,17 229:5

230:2,8,10,19

231:1,5,22

232:5,8,12,14

233:15,18

234:5,21 235:20

236:7,19,22

238:3,5

239:19,22

242:7,14,17

243:2,4,7,17,20

244:4,9,12,19

245:1,9,17

246:5,17 247:17

248:1,10

249:9,21

250:4,18

251:3,7,11 252:8

253:1 259:15,20

260:5,10,18,21

261:4,10,21

262:4,6,9,12,16,

19 265:7 266:6,8

269:5,9,11,14

270:8,19

271:4,17

272:1,8,12

273:4,10,18,20

275:2,15 283:17

284:4,9,16

285:2,10 286:18

291:8,16

292:4,16,21

293:3 294:7,10

295:5,12 296:3

297:6,15 298:1

299:8 300:3

306:4,10,19

307:2,5,10

308:1,4,15

309:3,20 310:13

either 11:16 28:21

41:1 43:3 53:3

92:16 113:10

117:21 141:19

154:8 168:17

198:14 224:22

238:13 247:12

266:3

either/or 251:13

252:1

electric 2:13 9:9

133:14,15,16,17,

18,21 134:9

135:6,7

electrical 52:17

56:1 133:6

135:22 155:17

202:16

element 56:22

elements 96:5

elevation 9:4

eleven 182:12,13

else 7:7 23:1 25:12

50:19 81:22

103:17 114:2

137:14 143:15

145:6 152:20

155:9 162:2,12

163:7 168:18

170:6 176:6

191:10 209:4

237:11 263:13

306:12 309:20

else's 259:12

email 5:19 6:1

171:5 190:7

224:22 308:22

emissions 9:7

emphasis 106:15

employed 311:9

E-N 249:9

enables 82:9

enclosed 180:8

encompass 213:2

280:15

encompasses

281:20

encompassing

195:4

energized 142:17

146:12

energy 1:1

2:7,9,11 3:7,13

8:9 11:13,14,19

14:19 29:17

30:8,13 31:5

33:4 34:1,10

36:19 41:9

42:7,8 54:13,17

55:18 56:6 57:2

58:5,15,16,22

65:19,20 68:12

69:14 72:2,11,22

77:2,3,8,9 79:1,2

80:16,18 82:1

93:7,22

94:2,3,5,12

95:2,7,12,15,17,

20,22

96:1,7,10,15

98:2

99:1,11,12,13

100:10 106:9

107:9,13,16

116:1

119:15,21,22

120:7,18

121:17,19 122:5

125:20

130:18,20

133:11 135:17

136:22 138:20

145:13

155:13,17

168:18

169:6,10,16

175:9 177:17

178:2 201:14

202:19 206:8,10

208:14 250:20

251:21 252:11

Energy-Efficient

1:6 3:8

enforce 76:5

enforcement 62:19

75:4 91:18,21

93:6 298:19

engineer 52:17

56:1 58:18

195:20 199:17

engineering 106:1

199:3

engineers 98:19

English 232:11

enhanced 67:11

enroll 75:6

ENT 249:9

enter 179:14

220:13

entertain 165:18

entire 19:11 304:3

entirely 86:21

entity 235:17

entry 22:13 270:6

environment

30:20 43:1 74:15
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 20

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

80:4 81:2 95:18

environments

30:17 78:16

79:4,18

envision 15:13

47:6

EPA 171:6,9,12

equal 66:7

equally 68:16

eQUEST 95:3

equipment 15:19

53:20 70:3,7,9

91:8 95:1

96:11,15 97:12

98:21 105:21

107:7,18 115:14

122:3 130:15,19

142:21 151:13

152:16 156:11

183:18,22 184:4

199:12 200:21

214:21 215:7

248:17 265:13

288:11,18

290:17,19

equipped 18:5

equivalent 34:7

42:11

ERV 86:18

ERVs 71:8 117:6

especially 33:1

94:21 123:17

153:6 175:7

181:4

essentially 8:15

41:4 107:5

156:15 175:13

established 219:18

241:9

et 30:17 45:21

48:18 133:6

138:2 254:18

evaluator 146:4

evap 20:17,18

evaporated 27:2

evaporation

127:13

evaporative 30:1

36:22 73:8,9

evaporator 51:8

126:15 127:12

129:7 137:4

145:20 199:10

evenly 157:12

eventually 110:16

118:17

everybody 34:15

51:6 58:10 60:13

68:16 71:1 73:19

123:9 216:17

220:8,22 233:18

238:3 259:18

260:18 262:16

295:13,20

everybody's 21:6

61:19 226:2

everyone 7:7

46:13 50:19

159:5 162:2

195:18 215:22

222:2 309:11

everything 10:1

14:14 16:17

25:12 28:9 34:13

81:22 108:18

111:14 159:11

176:17 236:1

255:3 256:22

290:17

everywhere 202:8

evidence 91:6 93:1

100:3

evolved 105:13

196:1

exact 8:1 47:20

74:4 175:13

exactly 16:19

29:12 47:7 54:10

60:6 61:6 65:21

78:21 118:13

132:22 166:3

170:9,17

197:10,11 255:8

289:16

example 11:15

14:4 23:22 26:15

34:5 70:20

81:4,13 101:7

109:1,18 114:12

148:7 161:6

168:3 177:22

183:17 184:21

185:11 192:10

201:3 216:13

217:12 252:11

259:22

examples 70:12

122:15 227:4

250:14,17 251:4

exceed 290:22

excellent 118:9

except 170:19

276:19 282:15

290:16

exception 91:5,6

exceptions 91:8

exchanger 31:20

90:9

exchangers 75:1

exclude 76:2 90:22

excluded 84:16

86:15 102:11

164:1 194:13

exclusion 27:17,19

34:22 37:15

47:13 84:4,19,22

88:3 136:5

exclusions 88:9

exclusive 17:14

Excuse 49:16

220:19

exempt 35:16,17

62:18,21 80:8

184:20

exempted 75:6,19

exemption 62:12

exemptions 70:6

exhaust 141:15

142:12,13

143:10

exhaustive 27:7

29:3 158:6

exist 90:20

existing 10:12

43:22 45:20

72:13 108:10

189:21 197:17

205:3

expecting 118:19

expects 6:15

expense 52:12

81:9,10

expensive 34:6

35:2,5 73:10

83:8 136:15

153:19 278:4

experience 288:16
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 21

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

explain 42:3 51:3

58:6 189:11,12

301:8

explained 70:13

explanation 58:10

117:15 160:15

explanations

109:10 136:19

explicit 22:22

161:14

explicitly

163:14,16 164:2

174:14

exploration

123:22

export 179:17

180:2

exposed

119:6,7,9,10

exposure 177:10

extensively 223:2

extent 43:4 49:10

70:14 72:19

130:8,11 150:22

158:19

163:17,20 167:7

236:12 267:8,16

275:18 278:17

285:21

extra 126:12

137:13 157:18

207:15

extremely 23:20

eye 272:16

F

face 79:11

faces 141:20

FACILITATOR

2:2

facilities 60:1

287:7 289:19

290:10 291:1

facility 16:17

52:20 53:15

192:19 246:21

247:6,9 285:22

286:13

287:10,12,18

288:15

290:16,20

291:2,3,12

292:9,10

293:2,6,14,17

facing 79:10

fact 65:6 76:2

80:17 91:16

95:18 101:21

134:7 135:2

142:15 150:19

236:3,5 237:2,7

241:10 246:19

256:5 268:6

284:5 291:6

300:7

facto 114:10

factor 52:6,8,21

55:3,5,14,16,17

57:9 126:18

128:8 240:22

factories 45:12

134:21

factors 78:20

81:16 177:11

factory 44:7,8

66:18 67:3,8,15

69:3,4,10 102:18

153:22 286:9

factory-installed

102:2 247:4

Fahrenheit 185:4

fail 301:19 304:15

failed 104:18

270:13 301:21

failure 138:8

176:15

fair 68:18 86:22

157:20 210:15

223:22 225:13

279:18 280:11

283:15

fairly 37:1 155:12

277:8

fall 130:16 252:5

falling 187:7

falls 183:21

false 146:3

familiarity 289:12

family 206:5

fan 12:1 21:20

24:2,5,13 25:21

33:9 65:9 68:12

76:12 82:11

119:14

127:4,17,21

129:4,8,11,12,14

,17 132:13,21

134:5 140:13

143:10

161:10,12

fans 131:3 142:13

143:6 152:20

fast 148:11

faster 30:19

favorite 58:16

185:13

feasible 63:5

feature 16:11

38:17,20,21

features 8:19

15:19 36:12 85:4

89:3 103:3

167:16

federal 1:4 14:1

310:17

feedback 50:5

feeding 145:18,19

feel 111:15 113:22

159:7 222:2

226:7 268:12

280:19 284:9

feels 29:7 175:11

feet 60:5 131:13

154:21

felt 258:11 270:11

FEMALE 49:20

50:1,8,18 204:7

field 16:11 66:19

67:9,16 69:11,13

70:18 77:21

87:7,17 94:17,19

95:9 96:1 101:18

102:12,14,21

103:4,6,9,18

104:17 107:18

111:12 112:10

115:18 116:3

119:16 163:18

175:10 189:20

Fifteen 279:15

figure 44:13 45:11

89:22 96:10

139:10 199:21

figured 145:13

figuring 181:11

file 4:18 207:11

269:22 308:3,22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 22

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

files 237:9

filter 48:21,22

49:1

filtration 144:3,6

fin 26:17 30:12

31:16 33:7

101:10

119:6,9,10

final 49:13 51:14

209:10 218:20

222:10 223:16

225:5,8 227:10

245:5 246:9

275:1

finality 303:6

finalize 28:7,8

209:7

finalized 274:20

financial 311:10

fine 9:18 10:22

12:20 25:17 37:6

166:13 180:3

187:3 220:6

228:2,3 257:18

259:19 264:17

270:10 278:18

283:16 284:2

292:15 310:11

finished 158:3

finite 46:1

fins 26:18,19 31:8

34:7

fire 154:5,13

first 4:9 21:14

23:14 29:16,22

49:6 51:7 118:11

137:1

160:17,19,20,22

165:20 188:18

197:15 210:1,9

211:14,15,19

214:12 215:19

216:5 219:15

220:14 223:2

228:2 230:21

231:7 242:9

250:11,22 263:2

272:21

276:17,18 279:6

282:22 290:13

291:3 296:6,7

300:20 306:4,11

310:2,8

fit 10:14 134:13

194:7

fits 10:13 115:1

187:19 197:10

five 32:10 33:2

34:2 41:2 45:9

60:4 70:1 76:9

83:12 89:10

120:3 132:17

140:2 152:12

159:2 168:7

252:19 253:17

254:14 274:5

281:19 282:6

305:2 309:13

five-ton 69:2,22

71:12 153:12

fix 20:4 21:11

97:17 307:17,20

fixed 118:3

Fixtures 3:6

flag 268:12

flat 120:3 299:12

flexibility 93:21

177:1 240:10

flexible 111:10

153:21

flip 105:14 108:1

floor 304:18

floors 131:16,18

flour 185:8

flow 18:2 57:14

61:22 119:13

120:2,4 127:21

128:1 157:9

283:12

fluorescent 11:16

178:12

Fly 2:14 52:1,3,16

53:8,22 54:4

55:10,14,22 56:3

57:17,20 59:7

67:18 68:3,6

86:14 87:1 89:9

99:4 116:22

117:12,17

121:14 122:7,14

124:7,10,14

125:8,12 126:4

127:6 129:16,20

130:1

131:15,18,20

132:12,15,19

134:8,13 135:16

137:2,6,10

138:7,17,20

139:16,22

140:10,16,22

141:4,8,11

142:4,7

144:10,12,16

145:3 146:3

149:9,12,18

150:9 151:14,16

152:1,15

153:3,5,9 154:18

155:6,16,19

156:3,12,17

157:11,14 158:7

160:19 161:7

190:19 193:10

202:11

203:11,14

237:21 238:2

268:11 298:20

foam 240:6

focus 44:16,18

92:4 105:21

106:3 229:11

272:9,13

FOIA 268:1,3,22

follow-up 310:9

food 78:16 79:5

footnote 233:6

239:22 245:20

249:11 295:7

footnotes 47:3

234:13

footnoting 158:17

force 18:19

forced 180:15

foregoing 311:4

foregoing/

attached 312:7

forever 111:19

194:19 198:4

225:18

form 251:10

formula 24:12,14

forth 186:11

fortunate 303:21

forward 5:8 70:11

118:9 125:5

160:2 165:6

209:12 227:5

240:11 257:9

275:10

forwarded 5:15
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 23

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

fourth 262:3

Frank 3:5,11

6:2,14 7:19 8:6

57:6 102:7

116:12 164:17

171:4 186:19

204:14 229:17

236:19,22

238:15 262:22

291:21

fraud 90:18

91:1,7,13

100:2,4,8

free 58:22 59:7

68:13

Freedom 268:1

freeze 9:8 157:13

freezing 123:9

frequency 52:9

127:19

fresh 131:9,10

143:17

fridge 188:3

front 86:1 124:3

171:10

293:14,15

302:15

frost 124:11

fuel 206:4

full 128:6 151:20

292:10,14 293:9

full-load 160:4

full-time 300:14

fully 201:9

functional 206:9

functioning

188:10

functions 36:12

fundamental

289:9

furnace 164:19

205:12 286:4

309:7,10

furnaces 204:8,11

205:4 214:20

248:4,7

future 13:3 29:11

70:14,16 71:18

73:8 98:10 101:2

116:21 149:6

184:6 197:21

256:7 257:16

G

gadgets 63:13

gain 89:15

gallon 60:12

game 89:7

gaps 145:18

garage 131:6

gas 44:10 61:3

134:9 135:14,19

137:1 145:7

148:10 152:8

155:14 206:5,8

gate 74:16

gather 113:17

general 23:20 29:8

61:17,20 95:1

generalization

105:17 181:15

generally 108:7

117:9 199:8

203:4

generate 52:12,14

57:10

generated 55:9

generates 128:12

Geoffrey 2:15

gets 15:17 67:15

75:3 76:13

101:21 107:16

169:19 189:19

214:2 287:3

getting 10:1

43:8,12 65:11,22

66:6 68:13 69:11

70:2 96:18

100:18 103:1

117:3 120:4

147:15 149:9

155:16 158:7

170:18 173:1

193:11,15

196:20 216:12

245:15 257:5

270:14 300:16

302:18

gift 92:19

given 36:22 95:18

183:22 188:15

200:18 225:15

237:1 305:4

gives 199:13

240:10 242:4

250:17

giving 177:1 251:4

255:18 288:12

glass 115:12,15,22

glean 6:16

global 271:16

goal 36:5 39:22

141:6 203:5,9

going-in 21:3

gone 117:2 152:13

160:10 229:13

267:18 308:5

Goodman 3:16

69:15

Gosh 131:11

gotten 227:18

229:3

governed 268:1

government

293:13,16

grade 144:7

grammatical

232:4

grand 207:11

granted 221:16

298:7

gray 282:16

great 7:12 67:3,6

309:1

greater 81:11

114:3

green 44:6 158:14

grid 53:7 54:1

grill 120:12,15

grocery 124:8,9

gross 21:22 22:1

ground 10:5 71:15

77:16 111:5

277:1,2 279:16

293:17

group 7:2,4 29:7

44:18 106:7,8

166:17

167:4,11,14

172:19,20

174:12 198:22

206:5 281:19

282:13,14

grouped 168:13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 24

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

176:18

grouping 7:10

136:6,8,9 174:21

176:9,13

groupings 46:21

groups 167:8

173:21 279:22

280:10

guarantee 39:11

guards 76:11

119:2,3

guess 9:14 13:13

24:21 26:4 27:5

35:19 36:16 37:2

51:1 57:4 59:12

81:5 86:16 90:15

92:20 93:2 95:14

98:15 145:13

146:12 181:21

183:9 213:10

217:1 223:12

231:15 245:20

276:10 277:13

guessing 171:8

277:15

guidance 170:7

guides 226:13

guy 16:11

guys 10:10,11 15:6

18:2 45:8 51:2

70:13 79:3 89:4

93:4 100:5

112:16 113:13

116:4 157:7

160:16 164:6

165:21,22

167:8,9 174:11

176:4,20 178:1,8

181:9 183:3

189:7 195:7

276:16 278:17

281:5 286:1

308:18 310:13

H

hail 76:11

119:2,3,6

120:4,9,10

half 46:12

half-hour 85:22

Halley 2:15 106:14

243:11 246:18

hand 57:7

242:20,21

304:7,22

handle 29:11

129:8 225:3

handled 294:8

handler 60:14

98:5 134:21

153:14,15

157:1,7 189:18

193:6 196:14

handler/owner

196:15

handlers 60:19

95:11,16

196:10,11

handling-only

196:13

handy 23:21

hanging 208:3

212:18

happen 70:7 87:8

101:1 113:12

129:1 142:1

happened 238:18

happens 67:4,16

141:17 156:9

157:2 191:22

192:7 210:18

264:8 283:3

Happiness 5:21

Happy 5:21

hard 61:8 68:1,3

83:7 84:21

107:19

112:18,22 124:5

141:19

harder 78:4

125:19

harsh 78:15 79:17

80:4

Harvey 3:8 66:15

71:19 93:3

Harvey's 87:12

hash 11:6

hate 52:8 158:14

haul 120:18

haven't 29:19 78:8

126:4 162:22

164:9 206:16

221:19 227:18

255:20 267:18

274:20 299:1

having 14:3 16:1

26:1 37:15 41:12

45:6 46:17 47:5

55:11 62:3 81:14

83:6 86:3

94:13,15 95:5

96:4 103:17

150:16 241:18

263:10 275:3

283:3

head 86:19 203:3

207:20

heading 215:6

heads 46:7

hear 22:14 23:15

109:10 117:15

153:2 200:11,13

212:3,4 235:22

236:2

heard 51:17 86:4,6

100:16 109:11

116:14,15

183:10 200:7

217:13 276:22

286:6,7

hearing 36:17

99:19

heart 47:2 61:10

heartbeat 84:6

heat 3:15 30:9,10

31:20 52:12,15

55:8,9,10,12

56:21

57:3,10,11,13

72:2,5,6,11,18

74:22 90:9

115:21

122:19,21

124:1,13 125:17

126:18 128:8,12

133:5,14,15,16,1

7 134:2,5,9,10

135:9,15,19

140:11 146:1

147:14 150:12

196:17 207:21

heated

115:12,15,22

heater 6:8 13:18

188:6,11,12

234:9,18

235:13,17 241:4

286:3,5

heaters 7:1 8:22

9:10 15:14 163:3

169:21,22 172:1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 25

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

188:7 207:22

208:2 214:18

234:9 285:17

heating 2:5,14

3:11 5:18

126:7,11

133:8,12,17

188:11,12

236:21

heaven 277:22

heavier 35:9

heavily 57:8 81:21

heavy 78:18 79:7,8

heck 144:17

hedged 104:15

hefty 125:15

held 83:12 269:22

270:1

Hello 246:3

help 93:20,22

99:22 126:21

288:10

helpful 23:19

71:21 136:19

158:19 160:6

helping 61:4

helps 156:1 158:17

272:19

hereby 311:4

312:3

Here's 21:3 280:12

he's 281:18

Hex 2:18

Hey 48:15 248:6

high 7:5 9:3 10:15

25:14 79:5 89:20

122:21 123:7

131:13,15

132:20 137:16

138:5 140:6,8

144:3,18 155:11

161:18 176:1

177:7 242:20,21

high-bay 154:21

higher 11:11,19

24:1 26:7 34:14

119:14 121:4

127:13 130:18

144:7 161:14

168:12

171:12,13,18

299:13

highest 26:8

168:11

highly 10:3

history 195:16

hit 65:22 68:10,16

69:7

hold 183:20

205:14 232:3

307:21

holding 201:13,15

Holy 89:6

homework 306:1

Hon 2:16 12:20

13:1 78:11,15

79:19 80:1,21

166:8 167:19

168:20,22

169:5,8,13 171:6

174:5,9

177:4,14,16,19

179:13,16

180:3,6,11,13,19

184:21

185:3,7,10 187:6

293:1,4,21

honestly 286:11

hook 198:16

Hootman 2:17 4:7

20:18,20 21:1,22

22:13,15,17

24:10,19

25:5,8,10,18

26:1,4,8,11

27:5,11 28:10

30:4,9 32:5,11

33:3,8,11,14

34:16,19

35:8,12,19 36:5

38:1 41:22 51:21

52:2,14 53:5

54:3,7,21

55:8,11,21

56:2,7,12,17

57:11,19 58:8,19

59:5 61:7 62:22

63:18

64:10,13,16

65:1,15,18,22

66:4,6,9,15 67:5

68:1,8,18 69:21

70:1 71:19 72:13

73:5,7,16,20

76:15 78:2,14

83:6 85:6

87:12,17 92:9

94:19 97:4

99:8,12 100:20

102:5,16

104:3,14

119:3,10 120:1

121:17 122:9

124:9,16,21

125:1,10 126:3,5

128:8,11

131:4,8,17

132:4,7,11,14

133:1,14,16,19

134:1,11,15

135:1 136:9

139:1,4,9,15

141:2,16

142:6,12

143:1,5,9,17

144:2,4,11,13,17

,20,22

145:4,9,12,17,21

146:10 147:22

148:17

149:11,17,21

150:2,15,17

151:5,10,15,18

152:2,6,11

153:1,4,8,16

154:2,6

155:5,8,21 156:5

157:5 158:11

159:16,20

160:10,20

161:1,4

162:10,17,20

180:20 181:2,14

182:7,10,14,16

189:9,13 190:12

191:4,9,11,20,22

192:8,13

193:1,16

194:3,15

195:10,16 196:8

197:7,12

198:2,5,7,17,21

199:3,5,15

200:2,6

205:18,20

206:17 208:16

209:1 210:6

214:14 217:9

227:18

233:3,9,12

255:4,12,15,22

263:16

264:15,19,22

265:3

272:7,11,20

274:1,6 275:10

278:8 284:22
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 26

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

291:18

293:5,8,13

298:4,9

304:4,6,18

306:15

307:11,13,19,21

hopefully 18:1

39:22 40:1 98:9

151:11 221:20

horizontal 61:21

horse 87:2

horsepower 138:4

140:18

hospital 137:20

144:5,11 306:18

host 105:10

hot 44:9 134:1

137:1 145:6

147:18 148:7

152:8 155:14

hour 277:9

hours 175:14,15

178:11

HR 208:19

HRI 208:11

HRVs 71:8

HTP 8:18 118:6

169:15 187:11

207:19 219:17

299:9

huge 60:9 137:22

140:18 150:20

196:20

humid 68:20

humidity 123:19

hundreds 132:10

Hurst 2:18

83:15,18 84:6

109:16

112:4,7,9,14

113:8 120:11,14

hurts 128:7

Hussmann 3:10

115:3

HVAC 4:7 7:7

9:12 15:19 29:22

81:6 93:17

108:11 115:6

122:3 126:6

142:14 154:12

183:11 202:8

207:5 218:4

hydration 145:21

hydronic

133:4,5,20

134:10,19,20

135:2

hypothesis 82:4

I

I-75 202:18

ice 184:22 185:7

ICM 194:1 196:13

ICP 302:19

I'd 225:12 292:12

idea 62:8 77:15

96:14 113:19

114:18 221:12

243:21 266:17

283:12 285:21

286:1 292:7

300:5 303:15

ideas 86:4

198:12,19

identical 8:5,14,15

36:8 39:14 86:8

170:11 172:2

201:19 206:6

identify 102:12

229:10

idle 293:9

IEER 67:19,20

128:15,17 129:2

145:16 160:5

252:13,21

253:4,7,9

256:6,9 258:14

259:7 296:1

I'll 22:15 52:1

161:5 217:20

228:15 233:13

243:11 245:7

249:12,15

272:14 273:1

I'm 6:6 22:14 43:8

56:2 62:1 73:13

75:14 77:7

116:14 138:14

140:4 146:10

148:15 166:2

167:19 177:6

187:21 191:11

192:19 193:14

206:2 215:14,15

224:14 225:19

236:7 245:15

256:1 260:2

271:6 277:15,16

284:14 291:18

307:8

imagine 35:4

imaging 15:17

immediate 109:8

immediately 94:7

imminently 36:21

impact 9:10 24:9

34:8 36:19

37:1,7,8 39:4

40:2 46:1 69:10

76:13 78:18

80:22 127:4

158:21 160:1

257:4 301:9

impacted 303:12

impacting 15:22

16:3

impacts 35:18

88:4

implement 37:9

167:10 276:10

287:16

implemented 48:2

implementing

288:17

implication 236:6

implies 263:15

imply 236:5

important 45:4

95:6 107:19

imported 182:3

impression 258:6

improve 55:17

106:20

improves 52:7

128:3

inaudible 274:18

Inc 2:13,15,18

3:5,6

incentive 105:20

incentives 100:7

107:3,8

inch 26:18,19

inches 137:21

inching 152:11

include 9:13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 27

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

17:16,17,18 51:7

60:1 194:17

230:17 259:22

272:4

included 13:19

16:9 51:16

102:13

194:18,21

235:10 266:15

269:16

includes 21:20

24:4 202:17

222:2

including 15:9

81:12 248:21

260:11,22

273:12 285:5

295:16 297:17

inclusion 27:18

159:16,20,21

245:10 248:2,14

250:8 292:17

inconsistency

66:21

incorporate 124:2

incorporated

22:20 126:10

307:7

incorporates

221:2

increase 9:20

65:18 92:15

95:12,16,20

122:5 133:6

136:22 249:17

increased 15:11

54:17 58:5,15

136:22

increases 65:9

126:18 128:5

133:8

increasing 37:15

69:13 116:17

incremental 82:3

indeed 41:20

independently

275:20

indicates 218:21

indication 91:6

individual 11:1

16:18 43:19

45:21 76:7 81:20

166:18

167:2,14,15,22

168:4,8 178:4

298:5,7,13,15

individuals 106:8

indoor 21:20 24:2

76:12

127:1,17,21

129:10,11

132:21 137:16

138:4 155:11

161:14,18

inducing 125:2

inductive 52:8

inductor 57:1

industrial 30:16

73:4,5 78:21

81:5

industrialized

73:3

Industries 3:5

industry 10:11,13

41:1 49:11 59:22

78:16 107:5

111:4 150:20

305:17

inefficient 150:3,4

inexpensive 62:5

infinite 10:1,4

information 6:16

43:10 44:1 45:6

80:3 91:12,14

98:10 99:6 100:1

101:9 105:19

106:1,7 113:8

120:19 124:4

127:16 129:3

131:22 133:2

135:12 140:11

141:13 154:4

159:9 179:6

209:20 263:3

264:12

265:11,12,15

266:12,14

267:2,12,13,19

268:2,4,5,13,19

269:4 270:11

271:12

infrequently 83:13

infusing 134:19

initial 71:10

170:16 194:12

219:2

initially 163:5

175:6 218:22

innovating 118:11

innovation

118:7,20

innovative 123:22

278:21

input 158:7

206:4,10,11

inserts 115:15

inside 79:6 131:6

152:17 154:11

insignificant

302:22

inspected 130:2

inspecting 122:6

install 66:17

103:18 266:21

installation 16:12

69:12 93:21

installations 87:18

installed 16:14

69:11 96:20

97:21 115:18

121:7

installers 286:10

installing 102:3

instance 25:13

instances 281:13

instead 73:12

102:11 146:1

148:9 154:11

161:17 271:20

Institute 2:6 3:12

instructions 17:6

226:6

insulating 240:20

insulation 237:7,8

240:6,15

integrated 9:20

integrity 34:11

74:13

intended 138:13

intent 46:14 93:18

96:19

intention 213:15

226:17,18

interaction 116:16

interest 81:14
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 28

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

311:11

interested 53:17

interesting 60:2

66:20 143:12

internally 189:6

interrupt 18:2

intolerance 84:13

introduce 144:14

introduced 141:21

introduces 157:8

introductory 21:9

23:2,7 27:21

215:3 228:1

295:22

invalid 176:15

296:15 298:15

investigate

141:9,11

involved 78:20

80:5 177:17

208:19

isn't 70:18 75:13

86:21 94:3 99:6

112:19,20

116:10 130:6

147:20 153:13

175:6,12 265:16

273:5 287:13

295:6

ISO 140:12

isolate 154:12

isolation 154:5

issue 30:14 37:20

53:19 58:14

59:14

76:6,19,21,22

77:1 84:10 87:13

88:1 93:3 109:21

114:13 125:6,7

126:17 128:20

132:12,20

147:20,21

152:14

163:18,22 164:2

170:16 181:8

187:21

193:21,22 194:1

195:5 197:9

201:9

204:5,16,18

209:4,5,9

236:9,10,13

238:17 239:8

240:2 241:2

269:5,11 275:4

276:22 277:5

279:9 284:11

285:10

286:17,20

287:11,22

289:10 296:15

300:2 303:6,7,11

309:6

issued 213:3

issues 34:4 54:11

69:12 113:15

119:1 120:6

124:18 160:4,5,7

169:9 206:14

211:16 227:2

286:10 294:16

308:18

item 42:6 54:5

60:20 71:8,22

120:21 204:20

243:18 284:2

306:4

items 42:7 72:4

102:12 108:21

109:12 204:19

208:4,10,21

287:14 292:19

I-tests 301:12

it's 6:9 10:15

14:20 16:3 17:7

22:17,18 25:9,17

35:8 36:5

41:10,20 50:8,18

53:1 55:3,5

56:10,22 57:1,15

59:1,3,4,15,16,1

7 60:18,21

62:1,17

63:2,8,11 66:20

67:21 68:6

69:4,6,20 72:11

76:8 80:13

82:6,12

84:10,11,14,16,2

1 85:6 89:13

92:17 100:8,9,12

103:7,14,22

107:19 111:22

115:22 121:18

124:2 126:1,22

127:3 128:11

130:4 134:15

135:7 137:12

138:19,20

140:4,5 141:5

142:10 143:19

145:3,9 146:16

147:22

149:13,15

151:5,20 154:21

155:15 161:16

162:14 170:20

171:15,16 172:3

174:14 177:7

183:14

185:17,18,19

191:18 193:12

195:5,11 197:16

198:7 200:2

201:15 205:7

206:4 213:5

217:22 218:14

219:13,18

220:6,7,8

222:15,17

229:20 233:3

235:6,7 236:1

237:13 238:9

239:5,6 240:22

241:7,9 244:6

252:13 255:21

259:15 262:2

266:14 271:20

272:1 273:19

274:3,9 279:2,8

281:12 283:22

291:6 298:10

299:5

301:7,10,11,13,1

4 305:18 307:19

308:7

I've 116:15

131:11,12 200:7

245:15 310:10

J

Jeff 2:10,20 43:7

166:7 187:14

244:15 250:21

286:7 300:6

Jill 2:17 27:22

104:3,11

job 94:4 100:5

132:15

John 2:11,18,22

40:2 113:15

143:12

Johnson 2:19

4:9,11,14,16

53:11

54:6,10,16,19

92:7,13 131:1,7

137:18

153:18,20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 29

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

191:14,21

192:6,14,22

193:6,9 310:3,6

jot 229:18

judgment 288:1

June 165:5 208:15

222:7,8,16,17

303:7

K

Karen 3:3 274:17

Karen's 274:15

Karim 2:5 63:12

77:11 111:13

252:10 254:20

key 220:9 226:22

kicking 10:2 146:2

kids 209:1

Kills 156:3,4

kilowatt 175:14,15

178:11

kindergarten

242:21

kinds 61:20

119:17 142:3

144:5 154:17

169:8 196:11,21

Kleiss 2:20

6:1,4,7,11

43:7,13

215:5,11,13

216:14 230:21

231:3

234:12,15,22

235:4,12,15,18

236:2,14,16

237:18 238:7,11

240:13

242:13,16

244:13,16,20

251:1 283:7

292:18 306:13

knew 66:16 215:10

knowledge 90:17

Kojak 2:21

L

La 181:17

lab 61:7 93:18

261:19 262:7,12

263:16,18,22

266:5,9,21

287:11 294:11

label 179:19 180:4

laboratories 2:21

289:18

laboratory 271:12

285:7,11 286:16

287:4 294:17

labs 68:1 287:8

292:13

lack 289:11

laid 166:12

language 8:15

83:19 84:3 170:4

182:8 185:16

214:7 215:1

216:2 217:21

218:20 219:4

221:7,13,16

224:17 225:12

226:4,6 250:17

251:4 260:11

292:17 300:3

large 130:9 152:16

159:1 201:11

246:20 247:3

285:14,16

286:2,3,4

larger 24:1 70:7

299:14

300:6,9,10,13

large-scale 174:7

last 4:13,17,18

5:19 7:19 27:21

98:17 105:15

183:9 187:15

246:11 249:20

250:22 261:14

284:2 288:9

300:17 307:14

late 251:15 259:15

later 80:17

107:8,17 207:15

227:11 284:1

295:8 302:19

latest 270:6

Laura 2:9 14:10

212:13 220:10

239:13

law 93:4,9,10,14

lawnmower

148:11

lawyers 104:4

laying 148:9

leading 232:5

leads 91:12

leakage 82:3

learn 190:9 257:8

least 4:7 5:9 27:15

34:1 37:21 38:8

62:15 86:17

87:22 106:5

110:15 114:2

136:19 165:18

190:12 205:5

209:12 227:9

242:6 258:5

277:5 297:7

305:4

leave 33:13,17

44:3 107:22

177:9 198:1

228:16 231:22

238:14,19 242:2

244:8,10,12

250:1 261:16

262:14 275:13

290:3 291:8

296:2 301:6

306:1

leaving 15:1

305:14,15

LED 11:16

legal 105:17 106:4

111:8

180:10,14,16

Legionnaire's

156:5

length 129:9

240:22

less 33:10 54:8

61:3 72:22 83:12

89:10 117:8

119:17 120:7

126:19 147:2

159:1 164:14

167:16 201:1

217:14

lets 127:14 140:17

let's 4:9 5:11 9:6

21:8 27:20 28:7

36:7 62:4 63:5

87:5 92:4 97:14

105:5 111:12

118:22 164:15

165:12 166:5

210:8 211:15

215:3 217:11,14

220:18 223:19

225:1 242:7
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 30

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

245:11 259:20

262:22 272:13

273:4,14 284:19

285:6 292:4,17

295:20 303:20

308:1

letter 48:17 269:15

level 7:8 11:20

53:15 79:21

94:13 106:20

114:4 125:6

140:3 158:20

199:21 201:14

224:7 288:16

levels 11:22

166:19 167:17

175:3

leverage 145:16

license 9:12

lieu 73:7 302:20

life 72:21 94:11

147:18 284:1

light 105:14 108:1

165:2

lighting 11:16 12:2

138:10 175:15

178:12

lights 155:10

likely 25:18 82:2

135:1 159:10

164:14 282:15

limit 47:22 149:20

limited 61:14

limits 149:22

261:15

line 9:18 41:8

50:5,19 52:4,5

69:9 72:12 90:22

162:1 196:4

200:10 211:22

212:1 216:6

240:7

243:2,16,18

244:19 245:1

262:3 277:6

278:20 290:7

297:2

lines 164:14

181:20,21

254:18 290:7

linked 142:4

list 4:13 7:10,11,14

8:19 9:13 10:1

20:11 23:9,10

27:8,9,10,18

28:7,9,21 29:16

32:17 33:13,17

36:11 37:6 38:3

41:12 42:2,14

46:1,6 48:14

49:5,6,13

51:14,16 57:22

58:1,3 59:10,16

61:19 70:21 71:7

72:1 76:3 77:11

80:10 83:9

87:4,20,21 103:3

105:11

108:17,19,22

109:12,13

110:5,6 111:18

112:2 114:8,9

117:2,14

118:3,22 120:21

128:22 153:10

156:12,13

157:20

158:2,6,10,12

159:4,8 162:9,13

163:10 167:22

168:10

171:12,13

177:10 181:1

194:18 195:8

203:11,15 207:1

233:8 239:6

254:22 275:19

276:2,8 302:3

listed 118:16

listing 7:9 10:8

40:18,19 76:3

167:20 170:17

listings 37:16

lists 4:2

literally 38:15

51:21 73:9 192:8

literature 168:17

169:3

litigation 104:8

little 18:17

23:14,21 30:10

31:20 47:6 66:13

81:19 82:1 107:3

112:1 115:2

122:16

124:16,17

131:12 144:7

152:4 158:5

159:7 195:16

225:1 245:19

261:20 278:1,10

295:10 297:9

305:5 307:22

LLC 2:21

load 60:18 128:4,6

137:11 147:13

151:14,17,20

199:9 257:5

loaded 57:8

loading 146:3

loads 123:17 150:6

locations 13:13

Lochinvar 2:20

43:7

lock 28:5

logistics 164:12

long 17:9 31:15

34:10 77:9 91:3

95:14 105:13

108:8 109:15,17

111:19 116:4

119:21 120:5,18

121:4,6,16 137:6

156:10 157:2

167:15 203:11

214:2 226:20

236:4 258:3

271:13 272:8

275:4 292:18

293:5

longer 69:4 72:21

104:1 157:21

long-term 118:2

loophole 35:5,14

62:5

loopholes 62:9

83:16

loose 165:8

lose 31:8 81:19

94:8 146:8 304:8

losing 81:22

losses 55:7

lost 55:10 145:13

294:21 304:3

lot 6:18 39:21

42:21 62:1 66:22

67:1 82:2 83:10

93:7 94:11,21

95:6,11 96:9

101:11 103:21

106:2 111:15

113:17,18 121:1
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 31

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

123:16,22

125:17 133:11

135:7 138:19,20

141:1 144:16,17

149:10,19

150:10 152:12

153:6 156:9,21

161:12 164:9

169:1 176:10

179:16 188:16

198:22 199:19

223:8 243:13,14

245:13 255:5

260:17 261:17

274:22 281:20

282:16 294:15

299:10 300:9,12

lots 61:18 81:21

169:11

Louis 3:13 42:20

59:11 61:10

94:20 105:21

107:2 150:17

156:7 199:7

louver 132:3

low 7:4 13:5,9

118:10

123:11,13 128:1

132:10 142:10

146:22 159:20

lower 52:11 55:2

81:14 99:5 102:5

130:20 135:14

171:18

255:17,19

lowest 26:5,9

low-exposure

177:7

low-stage 128:2

low-volume 177:7

luck 67:12

lump 72:8

lunch 162:16

164:13

M

machines 60:17

magnitude 159:9

main 84:9 228:13

255:7

maintain 34:11

74:13 220:10

278:17,19

maintained 173:10

maintaining 94:12

major 80:9,21

97:8 151:1,7

makeup 149:10

MALE 5:3,6,9

50:2,4 94:9

119:9 135:9

136:4,8,10,13

143:13

186:19,22

209:14 241:19

251:19

253:4,6,11,14

255:21 256:10

258:12,15

259:14 273:2

293:10,18 297:3

298:12,16

306:22 309:1

man 81:7

management

121:17,19

Mandyck 2:22

85:2 90:15 92:20

93:1 94:6,10

101:3 114:5,16

manner 109:6

113:4 214:3

manners 111:17

manual 17:1

200:22

manufacture 35:6

163:21 190:22

191:3 200:21

manufacturer

64:5 74:22 85:11

86:7 89:20 93:10

97:8,9 101:19

102:1,22

103:8,16 104:1

118:14 187:15

199:13 216:10

228:20,21

235:17 236:6

247:8 263:4

276:3,11,19

282:22 289:3

303:20,21

manufacturers

13:9 30:1

34:4,12 37:14

46:18 88:19

98:17 101:8,19

102:17 103:4

104:5 110:10

196:13,15

234:20 237:7

240:5,11 287:7

300:1,7,10,13

303:14

manufacturer's

101:15 229:2

246:21 286:12

288:15 290:19

291:2,12 293:2

Manufacturers

137:22

manufacturer-to

276:11

manufacturerwitness 172:5

manufacturing

2:16 3:3,16 83:2

247:6 305:3

mapping 46:17

maps 139:5

March 181:22

marginal 37:8

mark 2:14 43:21

52:3 116:22

137:18 144:4

market 16:6

84:12,15 87:21

88:17 89:13

118:13,18,20

178:5

marketer 58:18

marketing 26:13

58:19,20 176:5

marketplace 176:3

markets 13:6

123:16

Mary 2:12 12:21

166:6 251:11,12

Mary's 287:3

Massoud 3:6

200:10

master 156:13

match 189:18

191:4,15,17

192:15 199:9

200:17

matched

189:17,19 191:7

193:12 196:10

material 81:1

176:6 240:20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 32

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

materials 79:5

mathematical

107:15

matter 88:1 101:4

104:21 176:7

194:6 218:14

256:2 299:3

mattered 13:20

matters 55:13

305:3

may 1:11 8:20

9:3,10,13 10:14

18:4,5,7,11

19:13 21:1 30:12

36:18 38:11,12

39:13,14 43:5

46:1 47:3,9 49:6

51:2 62:2

70:14,15

71:11,16 73:9

78:21,22 81:1

88:10 92:13

103:3,4,12

104:1,7,13

108:13

111:2,17,20,21

112:3,4,22

114:11,12,13

117:19 121:7

123:10 124:1

126:5 127:6

130:5 132:12

138:2 142:9

147:2 155:4

158:21 167:15

168:11 169:1

173:5 178:11

181:18 182:19

183:6 187:9

190:17 197:22

198:14 203:21

208:20 225:7,21

231:10 232:2

237:18 264:10

268:8 270:21

276:3,4,21 278:9

290:18,19 292:9

295:10 300:7

302:11 303:5,6

304:13,22

maybe 11:15 23:6

35:15 36:20

38:10 44:4 62:8

75:2 82:16 85:8

90:4 114:1,2,6

117:4,11,22

118:1 131:2

134:12 140:5

147:1 149:15

154:20 165:7

194:6 195:16

206:18 216:16

227:6,18

228:8,14 233:21

234:12 240:14

252:17 256:6,18

259:11 274:17

287:4 288:9

300:19 302:18

McQuay 2:19

mean 8:14 9:17

10:10,22 13:7

14:22 15:4 16:21

17:15 18:4,14

20:12 24:14

27:14 29:1 31:18

32:5,12,19

33:16,18 35:12

36:5 39:1,11

40:2 42:2,3

43:15,16,17 49:4

50:22 53:14

54:8,20 55:1,6

57:19 58:11,13

61:7 63:16 72:5

73:18 74:10

75:21 78:9 80:14

82:6 83:9,20,22

87:8 88:19 89:8

91:15 92:19 93:2

94:17 95:13

97:14,16 98:12

101:1,19 109:16

110:13 113:10

120:11 128:16

130:4 131:4

132:19 134:17

135:5 139:16

140:4 146:5

147:3,4 148:7

152:5 158:2,19

159:11,18

160:14

161:5,7,15,22

162:20

163:13,16

164:21 167:7

172:22 173:19

175:20

176:10,19

177:12

178:11,21 179:6

181:6,14,18

182:22

184:12,20 189:2

190:9,14,15

193:10,22 195:7

197:4

198:10,15,21

201:6 204:17

205:6,21 210:7

212:18 216:11

217:12 221:15

223:4 224:6,9,10

225:9 240:3

249:7 250:19

256:20 258:13

263:19 264:10

268:6,8 275:17

276:10

277:19,20,21

278:17 283:10

285:20 288:4

289:4 290:8

291:21 292:7

299:18,19 300:5

301:20 302:22

meaning 46:19,20

48:5 172:16

260:6 264:14

means 23:16 34:22

130:5,12 133:21

189:3 197:16,20

237:15 263:12

283:1 299:13

306:5

meant 111:6 113:9

164:19 196:15

measure 14:18

72:19 107:9

measured 16:3

24:12 36:19

52:11 107:16

measurement 16:4

100:10

measurements

15:20 16:1,9

measures 14:15

15:10 184:19

measuring 8:8

98:7 130:17

meat 124:11

mechanical 131:16

154:22

mechanics 154:1

mechanisms 101:5

medium 159:1

meet 14:7 25:18

37:1,5,10 77:14

88:19 90:8

103:17 105:18
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 33

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

138:16 151:3

184:13 185:5

187:17 217:6

230:14

meeting 1:4 28:14

48:6 51:13 92:7

108:5,15 134:21

165:5,14 187:15

210:19 222:5,21

223:2,19 224:22

227:12 241:18

246:11 275:14

288:9 305:15

306:2,11 308:10

310:12,17

meetings 212:8

310:1

meets 93:13

101:15,17 106:4

184:2

members 307:4

mentioned 72:17

137:20 163:9

168:22 183:11

187:14 288:8

message 175:9

messing 53:22

met 203:15

method 118:8

187:19 208:3

metric 10:6 143:18

148:4 206:7

251:17 252:5

253:4 254:12

256:6

metrics 99:4

250:14 251:22

253:19 259:2

Meyers 3:3 28:4,6

31:15 44:4

45:3,10,15,17

50:6,10,12 63:7

84:7 88:11 89:12

92:14 96:22

97:2,6 99:9,13

104:21 105:1

Michael 2:21 3:7

micro 26:19

Microsoft 133:4

microwave 188:3

middle 10:5 77:15

111:5 277:1,2

279:16

migration 129:2

Mike 48:15

mildew 156:4

miles 60:12

million 60:4

mills 124:21

mind 23:13 47:12

60:6,14 91:22

98:1 116:5

121:22 135:5

198:19 243:14

277:22 282:6

minds 106:5,9

minerals 30:18

minimal 105:3

120:5

minimum 74:12

88:1 90:10

101:17 105:18

106:4 173:1

218:2 230:14

238:20

minimums 76:5

85:20

minor 9:10 28:15

223:6

minus 8:4 24:13

minute 81:6 280:7

minutes 85:22

121:7,10

misconstrued

175:11

miss 234:1

missed 233:21

246:7 251:14

missing 57:9 255:4

misunderstanding

170:22 172:10

misunderstood

217:13 254:2

Mitsubishi 2:13

90:21

mix 157:11

mixed 67:17

191:18

mixes 156:15

mode 10:16

133:8,10,12

173:22

model 5:20 6:10

7:2,4,16

11:1,11,14,18

13:10 18:3,8,11

21:9 23:2,12

24:7 25:4 26:9

38:8,15,19

39:3,15 40:18

43:4,11,19

44:14,17,22

45:1,3,20,21

47:12,14,21 48:4

60:16,21 62:10

65:17 74:1

80:2,3 83:4

85:3,4,5,10,12

86:6,7 89:7 90:8

92:7,9,12,15

93:12,19 95:1,2

96:2,3 97:1

98:2,3

99:10,15,21,22

100:13,19

101:6,14,15,16

103:1

108:10,14,15,19

109:14

118:10,16 138:2

139:13 161:16

163:3,6,11

164:19 165:1,19

166:9,18

167:2,4,5,8,20

168:3,5,7,12

172:18,19,20

174:17 175:1,2

176:13,14

177:13,14

178:3,4 181:18

182:15

183:11,19

187:21 192:22

193:1 194:7

198:13,14

202:14,19

203:15 204:11

205:3,10 206:3,5

213:6,7

230:15,17 233:7

237:5 240:19

241:2 246:9

270:2 274:21

277:20 278:15

279:22 280:10

282:3,13,14

291:4,7 298:7,13

299:1 301:9

303:16,18 305:1

309:13
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 34

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

modeling 68:15

80:5 99:5 167:2

models 6:19 7:3

9:3 10:9

11:2,7,12,17

12:13

13:5,6,10,19

18:10 40:3 42:9

44:21 46:18,21

47:15,16 71:14

80:4 81:15 86:5

89:8 97:16

101:22

167:14,15,22

168:8 172:15

174:13,22 176:9

203:9 206:6

216:15 217:18

219:1 231:12,13

233:16

237:4,6,15 238:7

240:14 248:7

249:16,17

256:17 274:9,12

277:18

280:16,20

281:11,21

283:1,2 290:22

298:5,8,13

300:21

301:14,15 302:3

303:21 304:1

305:21

modification 5:21

41:10 105:2

modifications

31:19

modified 98:22

103:22

modifying 99:17

modulating 61:19

moisture

121:3,8,11

122:21

123:2,10,13

126:16,20,22

127:11

mold 156:3

molds 156:4

Molvie 3:4 212:4,6

213:8,10,14

214:2

246:1,3,6,13,15

moment 224:13

264:18

money 106:10

176:9,10

monitor 96:12

month 303:7

months 188:22

morning 4:14,20

27:7 109:11

158:4 174:6

204:15 299:11

306:18

308:14,16

mostly 30:16

motor 24:2 65:9

76:12 82:11

127:17,20

129:8,11,12,14

130:22 138:3,4

140:18

161:10,12,19

motors 12:2 129:4

132:18 137:17

138:1 161:15

move 11:10 51:4

70:11 87:3

150:18 155:1

165:6 209:12

227:5 244:22

273:1 291:20

movements 118:11

movie 149:3

moving 117:1

multiple 37:22

138:1 148:6,17

149:2 173:12

192:6 217:4,6

219:14,20 228:9

230:12,16

241:21 261:10

multi-stage 128:2

mute 50:6

Myers 3:5 6:14,22

7:12,18,22 8:3

57:6 102:7,19

116:12 204:14

208:5 220:19,21

221:19 222:2

224:2 229:17

230:6,9,12

231:2,9,15,17,21

233:21 234:4

237:1 241:22

242:4 244:6

264:5

265:10,19,21

266:5,9,19 267:6

270:10,18

271:1,3 272:6

281:22

282:8,11,18,20

284:15 285:13

288:8,22

289:11,17,21

300:10,13 301:2

myself 190:13

N

N.W 1:7

narrow 88:10

156:10 277:3

nasty 79:14

NATALIA

311:3,17

Natasha 1:18

nation 68:19,20

69:14

national 2:10

198:4

nationally 82:1

Natural 169:9

nature 147:8

Navigant 2:3

near-term 110:13

128:20

necessarily

43:3,18 48:14

78:6 95:12,16,19

101:1 127:6

139:5 268:7

305:14

necessary 70:13

78:19 226:7

necessity 84:20

NEEA 3:14 94:20

199:7

negative 250:7

negligible 147:6

155:15

negotiate 267:22

275:9

negotiation 181:13

Neil 2:3 118:9

209:15 220:19

229:17 310:4

neither 54:6,7

311:8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 35

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

Neshan 3:6

200:10,11,13,15,

20 201:21

net 21:16,20

24:3,13 26:20,22

52:18 55:20

125:19 134:4

newer 150:11

nice 20:7 95:21

96:6,14 98:22

107:20 144:7

256:1 279:15

niche 123:15

124:17

night 4:13 5:19

7:20 246:11

249:20 250:22

Ninety-five 64:16

Ninety-nine

144:12

nobody 23:11

99:15 100:21,22

no-brainer 159:5

286:13

nodding 86:19

no-loophole 83:19

nominal 21:16

23:16

24:10,11,13,22

25:15

nominally 25:3

noncontroversial

209:11

none 58:7,8,10

273:14

nor 311:9

normal 112:19,20

normalizes 140:13

normally 115:9

145:19 154:19

257:13

Northwest 3:13

67:1

note 49:17 215:20

216:1 219:12,13

249:4 284:15

310:3,12

notes 221:1 312:6

nothing 99:10

162:2 186:5,17

207:17 209:4

240:16,18

246:14 254:6

notice 113:1

114:18 224:11

noticed 105:12

notification 137:3

noun 59:3

nowhere

193:16,19

NOx 13:6,9

NPRM 240:2

NRX 164:3

NSF 18:14,16 20:5

201:1

O

object 157:11

215:1 224:17

229:15 232:17

233:1 234:6

242:8,9,11,13,16

244:2 245:9

248:1,14,21

250:7 260:11

285:4 296:7

objection 51:15

227:21 229:9

230:20 242:18

objections 58:2

72:10 210:14

211:11,19

214:12 220:14

232:19 233:20

243:4 260:22

273:12 285:6

292:16 295:16

296:3,9,13,14

297:17

objects 245:11

248:3

obvious 161:8,10

290:9 291:14

obviously 68:13

70:17 77:14

109:7 119:5

159:3,4 160:7

172:19 182:20

184:13 193:21

194:2 204:2

206:22 209:21

236:20 285:22

o'clock 271:5

OEM 115:13

116:2

offense 161:1

offer 81:7

135:18,20,22

138:1 203:6

offered 138:3

offering 102:1

304:22 305:2

offers 74:22

offline 88:12 90:6

246:11

offload 149:18

oh 22:16 56:17

58:13 62:17 63:6

67:5 100:15

132:11 149:11

164:15,20 168:9

182:14 196:1

204:9 234:4

261:3,9 297:11

303:19

oil 206:4,8

okay 5:5,15,17

6:7,12 7:12 8:17

10:14 11:2,3

12:12,19,22

16:22 17:3,19

19:4,6 22:2 23:1

24:17 29:4 31:9

38:5 39:5 43:13

49:15,21

50:3,13,20,21,22

51:19 52:2 53:12

57:22 58:9,11,15

59:6 66:8,11

71:22 76:7,8

77:16 84:22

86:19 92:22

98:20 101:1

116:6 117:12,17

118:22 127:17

128:21 129:4

133:2,4 135:12

136:12 137:14

138:7 141:10,12

146:15

152:10,15 154:3

162:12 164:5

165:9,12 167:17

169:8 171:2

172:11 173:4,14

174:3 175:4

177:6,15,21

178:1,6,17

179:8,11

180:3,6,19

181:2,14 182:14
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 36

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

184:8,16 191:13

193:9 200:15

204:6 205:1

206:5,13 209:13

210:8 211:12,20

213:14,22

214:2,15,16

215:2,11,15,17,1

8 216:17

218:9,17 224:17

228:17

230:10,19

231:2,14

232:3,19,21

233:13,18 234:8

235:5 238:2,5,6

240:4 243:1

245:9,17

246:6,15 247:17

248:10,16

249:1,10

250:4,10 251:2,6

252:7,8 255:22

259:9

260:5,13,18

261:2 262:16

263:1 265:2,5

271:11,18

272:7,17,21

280:11 281:4

283:6,18,21

284:4,19 285:6

290:21 292:21

294:9

295:3,4,18,19

296:3,12

297:6,15,19,20,2

1 301:1

303:18,19 304:1

307:9 309:15,18

old 50:10,11

122:18 196:22

200:2

OM 205:11 267:9

OMs

266:12,15,18,21

one-of-a 18:9

one-of-a-kind 18:3

one-off 18:3,9

265:13

one-offs 89:19

181:4,11

ones 40:16,17 83:9

109:19 116:16

145:5 147:6,8

205:16 229:12

one-sided

255:11,21

259:19

one-time 18:9

ongoing 118:20

open 11:15 25:1

45:22 46:11 79:6

114:19 115:10

141:19,20 155:2

163:20 170:20

181:13 198:19

206:3 208:20

219:7 236:9,10

241:7 261:16

308:20

opened 66:14

163:16

open-ended 15:1

241:7

opens 147:19

operable 67:13

operate 95:17

97:12 112:20,21

121:6,7,10

126:14 127:14

133:9 156:2

operating 10:15

90:16 139:5

185:1

operation 127:2

operationally

81:16

operations 17:1

opinion 64:7

234:18

opportunity

113:17 242:4

265:14

opposed 11:13

52:9 94:13

265:19 305:14

opt 175:20 281:16

option 10:8 24:1

27:16 29:7 36:13

37:13 44:8 48:3

56:15 69:3 74:1

85:12 116:20

131:1 133:12

178:16 187:18

191:8 273:15,21

282:22 283:2,3

305:17

optional 9:14

options 9:7,18,20

10:4 20:22 21:1

24:8 29:11 41:5

42:12

44:7,10,12,15

46:1 47:19 48:20

49:13 81:8 83:12

85:9 89:14 94:16

102:2 103:3

129:4,8,12,14

133:6,11 134:2,7

135:15,19 138:1

144:6 148:18

159:10

161:10,12

163:10 166:22

176:1 256:22

275:5,21 297:14

302:6,15

order 36:14

63:10,13

74:4,7,11 75:20

88:21 183:3

267:4

ordered 77:20

ordering 74:4

original 93:18

others 10:14 51:13

111:20,21

119:18 159:6

160:6 161:10

191:17 221:20

227:15,17 256:8

272:8 284:13

305:10

otherwise 63:11

64:5 114:11

ought 84:3 136:2

ours 206:12

256:15

ourselves 130:17

outdoor 9:8

64:16,22

129:10,14,17

130:21

outdoors 190:2

outfit 290:11

outlined 41:4

outside 9:16 59:2

61:8 62:19 64:9

65:5,12 68:2

70:16 97:20

106:7,8 119:11

122:10 125:21

131:5,9 132:2,8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 37

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

142:8,14 143:20

149:13 157:12

173:7 189:10

202:3 264:12

273:15,20

278:15

outstanding 209:9

246:20 309:17

overall 31:4 65:10

69:13 94:4 120:7

135:3

overcome 125:19

overnight 27:6

overseen 14:2

oversized 137:16

138:1 161:14,19

over-time 109:7

owner 122:1

152:19

P

p.m 165:15 310:15

package 130:9

142:2 156:11

191:15 192:1

195:13

196:3,4,18 197:7

214:19 220:10

233:22

245:12,17 246:9

269:16 302:19

packaged

130:15,19

285:15 286:8

packaging 125:14

195:17,22

packets 192:12

page 212:15

261:14 272:12

273:9

pages 272:15

paging 262:2

paid 293:14,15

pain 89:16

paint 83:22 100:17

painting 75:17

pair 81:16 190:11

palatable 281:20

Pancake 157:5

pancake-lookinglike 157:3

paper 124:21

268:9,10

paragraph 21:9,14

23:2,8,14 27:21

210:18 216:5

221:12 226:3

230:7,8 250:11

285:11 295:22

paragraphs

209:18,19

210:2,4,9

215:3,19 219:16

220:15 228:1

295:21 296:6,8

parameters

101:12

Parametric 141:14

Pardon 129:22

pare 157:22

parentheses 22:7

parenthetical

22:11

parking 131:6

PARTICIPANTS

2:4 3:2

particular 36:18

64:19 82:21

104:18 129:13

130:14 172:15

177:9 224:15

280:20 301:19

306:21

particulars 13:9

parties 311:9

part-load 160:5

partly 126:14

party 115:19

172:4 254:18

263:5,19,20

285:22

286:11,16

290:10,15

291:1,10

292:8,13

pass 99:16 115:16

116:1 278:12

passes 147:18

past 188:21 244:17

paste 245:20

308:21

patent 124:4

pattern 174:7

patterns 26:17

Paul 2:13 90:21

265:7

pay 21:5

pdf 269:22

penalize 54:12

Pentagon 278:11

people 10:11 27:3

45:9 71:17 73:14

83:13 84:7 86:3

87:10 99:19

100:7,11,16

101:4 120:20

124:18 144:8

150:6 162:15

164:13 175:20

178:22 183:11

210:21 225:15

242:8 243:14

244:10,11

247:20 248:12

275:15 279:11

281:15 284:9,20

287:21 290:1,3

291:16 295:11

per 26:18,19 60:12

89:3 216:15

217:4 218:2,4

219:18 228:8,9

240:21 245:5

277:9

per-AEDM 215:22

216:3

percent 32:10 33:2

34:2 41:2 54:8

76:9 78:19,22

79:1 83:12 84:16

85:20 89:10

122:10 123:19

135:6,9 144:12

147:1 149:18

150:20 152:12

159:1 197:7,8

252:11,13,19

253:9,17

254:4,14 257:5

274:2,5,11,18

275:5,6,9

276:6,12

277:10,17

278:19

279:15,21

281:16,19

282:3,7
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 38

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

percentage 84:11

119:5

301:10,12,13,14

percentage-wise

81:11 128:6

perfect 62:2

perform 20:2

42:11

performance

34:7,14 60:16

72:20 128:4

186:1 190:2

performances

196:16

performs 19:21

26:20 95:4

perhaps 34:14

108:9 110:7

141:7,8 275:4

perimeters 115:12

period 40:19 84:17

108:8 110:20

111:19 300:18

302:21

permanent

151:14,15

perpetrate 91:1

person 67:16

84:18 170:4

247:21 269:2

276:5,6

personal 64:7

301:7

personally 227:14

305:9,10

perspective 27:15

33:19 34:8 51:6

87:2,19,22 88:9

105:1 109:10

118:7 177:1

303:14,15

pertinent 87:15

Pete 246:6

Peter 3:4 212:3

petition 183:12

186:15

ph 31:3 161:7

194:3

phase 52:6,9 69:2

202:18

Phil 118:5,6

219:17 299:9

Phillip 3:15 8:18

169:15 187:11

207:18,19

phone 200:10

261:15 262:1

286:7

phrase 27:21 82:7

228:8

physical 44:21

101:12 193:4

206:9 291:1,10

physically 261:18

pick 40:6 48:19

49:10,11,12

173:6 277:13,14

300:12

picked 14:5 135:2

196:21

picks 195:21

picture 115:8

piece 96:15 265:13

268:9,10 300:17

pieces 209:8

pile 77:13

piled 38:7

pilot 286:16

pipe 72:5 156:22

pipes 124:13

placed 154:7

placeholder

294:18

places 44:13

214:5,7

plan 294:15

planned 48:3

planning 12:4

plans 187:21 259:4

plant 123:18

131:11,12

181:17

platform 90:8

173:20

play 74:10 209:1

playing 89:7

please 71:21 260:8

262:8 296:17

297:10

pockets 197:1

point 11:2 28:6,16

29:2 37:11 40:5

42:15 44:4

56:10,20 57:7

67:18 68:10 70:5

71:5,19 75:3

86:17 91:16

98:15 101:21

103:5 112:4

115:1 118:9,18

119:16 128:22

137:18 140:10

146:11 149:9

163:21 177:16

182:21 186:4

190:22 191:2

197:11,20

218:14 223:4

224:12 225:20

229:3 232:12,14

235:16 244:16

269:8 276:16

280:12 286:14

287:4 295:10

297:1 305:8

pointed 255:6

points 24:15 26:2

67:20 90:2

policy 104:21

poorly 112:10

portion 22:4 49:17

portray 189:17

193:16,19

portrayed 190:3

portraying 78:4

position 21:4

37:21 38:11

69:16 88:6

111:15 113:14

176:20 189:1

194:11 276:1,18

positions 210:21

223:19,20

positive 65:20

positively 224:9

possibility 19:9

62:9 90:22

246:21

possible 36:21

102:8,10 133:5

138:9 161:5

165:4 177:2

221:17 223:13

225:4 282:18
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 39

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

possibly 33:3

153:11

potential 110:4

111:3

potentially 37:6

71:13 80:21

191:2 236:12

309:17

poured 122:18

power 21:21

24:5,13

52:4,5,6,7,8,10,1

1,19,21 53:16

55:1,3,5,14,16,1

7 57:8 65:9,10

96:13 127:4,21

128:5 202:16

powered 54:15

141:14,15

practical 15:12

18:21 57:7 60:21

64:2,6 278:1

practice 46:19

preamble 219:10

220:5 227:4

230:3 250:16

251:4 259:22

275:6

preapproval 211:3

precede 295:21

predict 78:3

predicting 95:7

predictor 99:11

prefer 33:12

162:15 197:2

266:17,18

preference 223:12

227:13

preliminary 99:16

premise 173:15

premium 115:11

prepares 294:5

present 281:1

presented 166:9

presently 254:13

preserve 62:15

pressure 33:4

65:1,2,7,8

68:11,12 121:12

125:15 127:1,3

133:8 134:5

137:11,13

142:19 144:15

145:14

146:13,14,16,17

151:17 152:3

153:6,8,9

155:6,13

157:8,15,18

pressurization

141:17

pressurizing

154:14

Presumably 176:8

pretty 8:5 16:20

27:1 29:3 53:14

80:12 88:6

107:18 139:14

205:7 209:11

220:7 222:15

277:3 299:11

303:15

previous 215:6

230:1

primary 10:5

121:2 206:7

287:10

print 169:2

prior 209:17

211:4,6

proactive 268:3

proactively 267:21

268:12

probably 11:5

15:16 18:17

24:21 30:6 41:8

44:3 54:19 62:7

81:11 90:7 117:7

120:6 128:6

135:16 136:2

138:18 139:4

143:17

146:11,22 149:7

158:1 160:21

184:21 207:6

208:14,16 246:7

251:15 265:1

269:19 271:13

281:14,15 305:9

309:18

problem 36:16

57:3 67:2 75:13

76:8 78:22 90:20

93:2 99:5 139:17

154:13 166:9

171:6 202:11

203:16 246:19

259:12 270:18

problems 71:2

79:3 86:2 94:21

95:7 96:2 169:11

210:1 211:15,17

214:21 219:15

227:9,14 296:11

procedural 289:13

procedure 9:19,21

10:7 13:21

14:4,5,8,12,15,2

1,22 15:2,5,20

17:7,11,14,16

22:20 24:15 34:9

36:20 58:14

59:14,18 60:22

61:12 64:9

65:6,13 66:4

67:22 68:11

70:14,19 77:21

80:20 89:15

109:5 111:20

114:14 118:3

125:6 127:3

128:14

129:16,19

130:4,6,12

139:13 151:21

152:1 174:15

183:16

184:1,2,18

188:15,17 200:1

201:18 204:3

208:8,11,14

212:17 213:1,4

234:19 235:10

241:6 246:22

247:11,12,14

271:14 287:17

289:5

procedures 14:18

22:21 109:4

170:11 203:2,3,8

212:11,20 213:2

267:5

proceed 108:6

187:18 306:12

proceeding

311:4,5,6,8,10,1

1 312:4,5,8

process 41:3,4

91:21 100:7

109:5 111:22

112:5,16 113:16

114:7 115:2,4

118:19
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 40

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

123:17,20

124:20,21 165:6

208:19 209:13

247:3 263:6,7,10

264:8 266:6,8

268:20

269:12,20 270:9

296:15 299:21

processed 247:14

processing 268:16

procurement

295:11

produce 175:3

producing 301:15

product 3:4 35:7

37:12 62:18,21

63:1 67:7 69:9

72:21 79:17

81:20 85:11

88:15 92:17

95:22 96:7 98:3

100:18 105:17

106:16 109:21

110:1,2 111:22

114:14 116:7

118:4,12

122:8,11

125:9,10

129:6,13,20

130:1,14 149:12

160:7 163:14

164:3 170:16

172:16 175:8

176:10 179:16

183:21 186:6

189:14

194:17,18,19

200:22 201:2

211:13 213:5

227:10 228:9,22

229:1 240:7

241:6 264:11

277:6 278:20

292:13

production 89:20

182:5

products 2:14 3:15

10:3 16:6 18:6

34:9 44:22 79:16

82:2 93:22 98:19

113:5 118:15

162:19 170:18

171:21 173:13

176:21 181:10

182:2,3 187:6,16

188:9 189:20,21

202:15 203:19

207:1,12

211:5,12 214:17

254:22 256:2

program 41:1 48:6

49:11 97:9 99:18

101:8,13 105:20

111:4 264:18

265:12 289:1

programming

108:3

programs 41:1

94:22 192:6

198:22 305:17

progress 299:10

prolong 93:22

promise 245:7

promote 93:20

prongs 128:15

proper 239:14

properly 125:12

properties 31:20

proposal 224:12

238:12 239:12

241:3

propose 237:1

proposed 222:1

224:8,11 226:13

proposing 89:9

protect 119:6

protection 9:8

82:20

protections 119:20

prove 88:21

provide 26:21 45:6

90:9 120:20

159:9 219:21

229:4

263:13,20,21

265:11,15 268:8

270:13 271:12

275:18 288:11

provided 81:1

90:12 103:4

121:2 263:4,7

265:17

provides 70:18

109:21

providing 107:7

110:10

provisions 247:5

PTACs 206:22

207:6

public 105:20

169:6 267:13

publications

169:10

pull 14:6

22:15,19,22

32:20 81:6 121:8

137:11

141:19,20 270:7

pulled 276:12

pulling 206:2

pump 13:20

14:4,6,19 15:14

16:10

17:16,17,18

140:12

pump/water

207:21

pumping 112:11

pumps 8:21 13:19

16:7 135:9

punish 62:2

purely 139:12

purpose 75:5

77:22 99:18,22

100:4 120:17

121:2 167:13

purposes 7:10

11:8 46:9,22

47:1 100:17

172:7,9

pushing 102:18

putting 34:21

38:14 43:10

89:14 92:11,14

93:12 100:16

125:17 154:1,20

207:21 236:11

PVI 3:5 6:14 57:6

102:7 116:12

229:18

Q

qualify 161:18

quality 69:12

78:12 80:22

87:18 103:19

155:11 240:17

quantity 155:12

299:2

quarter 122:20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 41

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

162:14

question 12:10

17:22 31:10

43:20 46:17 64:8

79:10,11 90:15

91:3 99:3 103:20

106:13 154:9

164:13 166:13

180:14,20

183:2,9 189:14

193:20

200:9,15,16,20

201:8,19 202:1

204:13 211:21

212:7 213:18

218:18 230:1

235:6,7 238:16

245:4,18

246:1,5,16

251:10 265:10

282:22

293:1,5,22

302:17

questions 21:12

23:2 53:13 54:11

59:9 116:11

117:20 120:20

127:16 129:3

131:22 133:3

135:13 137:15

141:13 154:4

166:6,7 182:19

200:8 204:4

205:1 209:19

211:17 214:21

215:4 232:20

247:18

248:10,17

250:4,12 251:8

252:8 256:4

260:15 270:19

285:12 295:21

296:4,10,16

297:4,8 298:1

308:17

quick 117:19

300:19

quickly 29:18

228:3 284:13

quiet 152:21

quite 83:11 132:5

149:8

quote 179:1

quoted 111:12

179:2

R

radar 36:3

radiator 120:15,16

raise 210:11 240:1

242:20,21 284:4

raised 31:10

113:15 279:11

raises 65:9 103:5

ran 299:11

range 7:3 105:3

137:22 144:6

185:1 275:5

277:8 280:16

303:18

rant 106:11

rate 11:18 31:10

32:20 33:20

40:16 127:6,21

128:2 136:1

159:16,20,21

175:19,21

255:17 299:12

301:3 302:1

rated 25:2 44:20

71:12 127:5

194:5 195:14

254:21

rather 8:8 18:19

96:1 116:2 148:6

153:21 227:11

236:17

244:13,17,21

rating 7:15 9:22

14:19 31:14 34:2

41:6 44:19 46:8

67:20 95:3 97:15

98:5 107:17

130:21

139:16,17

140:16

170:10,14

174:13 176:15

177:4 189:19

191:7 193:17,19

203:22 208:11

260:17 296:15

ratings 32:3

40:10,13 42:15

67:19 78:3

105:16 167:11

172:9 175:9,22

179:2 189:17

191:5 206:6

237:16 238:10

260:14 280:17

ratio 196:17

reach 16:7 27:12

62:19

reached 308:6

reading 194:12

205:17 251:14

ready 4:2 28:4

61:11 86:21

117:3,10,22

260:18 272:10

283:18 290:6

real 29:18 41:14

58:14 60:7 68:15

76:14,15,19 83:7

89:12 95:21

96:16 117:19

181:8 302:1

realistic 60:16

realistically

96:6,18

reality 30:6 95:19

134:17 135:16

realize 45:5 51:9

89:5 96:2,17

98:16 107:19

108:8 117:19

147:7,10 153:18

159:11 198:12

201:12 234:15

264:22 294:15

real-life 127:10

really 22:3 41:9

43:1 52:13,18

56:9 59:14

60:16,20 61:8

65:5 68:18 77:18

79:7 81:5 82:9

88:2 89:1 90:5

95:8,16 96:1

97:6 98:6,10

100:11,13

101:20 106:19

107:6 118:8

122:21,22

123:11 125:5

136:2,4 139:16

143:18 146:5

147:6,22

148:13,19

149:2,3,5 151:16

155:21

158:15,20

159:13,14 160:1

161:11,18,19

173:20 178:10

180:9

186:4,5,7,16
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 42

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

196:1 209:8

227:5 237:5

256:1 264:5

265:16

266:13,16

267:18 274:20

276:9

281:2,10,14

283:11 288:13

298:10 301:20

302:5

realm 9:19 70:16

202:3 206:22

real-world 37:7

99:1 100:10

reason 41:15 53:8

69:6 131:4 133:5

155:3 170:12

203:1 288:13

298:16,17

reasonable 77:16

82:4 114:6

116:13,21

303:16

reasons 164:16

175:21 282:16

received 50:9

recertified 12:16

recessed 165:14

recognize 197:9

recognizing

109:13 116:19

recommendation

221:18 250:13

recommendations

285:15

Recommends

211:12

reconcile 46:4

198:11 201:6

203:10

record 66:12

71:18 105:7,8

220:17

235:18,21,22

259:13 311:8

recorded 210:22

219:8 259:16

311:5

recordings 312:6

recourse 115:17

recovery

72:2,3,6,11

172:3

red 158:14

redefining 103:2

redesigning

151:12

reduce 120:2,14

152:19

reduced 311:6

reduces 120:16

127:21 135:22

reduction 84:16

refer 23:17 232:5

reference 13:3

252:17

referring 9:15

24:8

reflect 46:6 70:15

98:22 210:17,18

220:17 225:16

227:1

reflected 9:22

14:19,21

reflecting 95:8

reflective 96:17

reflects 96:7

184:19

refrigeration

2:6,10 3:12 6:17

7:7 24:6 63:8

64:4 78:7 123:5

126:11 127:14

146:14,15,18

165:19 199:20

214:20 248:16

291:5

refrigerator 79:6

172:17 185:3,12

reg 226:13

regard 221:20

regarding 263:3

273:16,21

regardless 40:10

42:17 84:17,18

115:21 202:19

222:1 252:20

299:5,12

regenerative

125:15

registered 50:9

regs 19:2 22:9,22

49:3 175:19

188:8 197:11

241:11 258:7

280:10 286:4

regular 57:12

85:15,19 112:5

regularly 108:2

regulate 68:2

103:7,8

regulated 122:7,10

208:6 235:16

253:19 258:6

regulation 143:7

regulations 14:1

107:10 171:22

184:5 194:9

257:22

regulatory 111:9

115:2 130:12

164:10 170:18

184:10 187:3

213:2 221:14

241:14

reheat 121:14,15

137:1 152:8

rejected 305:8

relate 18:11 280:4

related 43:7

103:20 169:3

311:9

relative 123:19

212:10

releasable 267:22

release 269:2

released 208:11,14

releasing 268:3

relief 141:14

143:18,20

relieving 142:7

rely 266:12

remain 91:3

remaining 209:5

244:1 284:20

remember 14:9

87:5 203:2,18

207:20 224:7

305:19

remind 285:18

remote 18:6

removal 121:3

remove 64:1

241:20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 43

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

292:18,19

removed 49:4

removing 127:11

renegotiating

223:7,19

renovation 151:7

renovations 151:1

reopen 207:15

reopening 14:17

229:20

rep 199:8

repeats 44:10

repercussion

302:1

repercussions

298:7 302:13

rephrase 283:8

replace 150:21

replacement 149:7

150:21

report 26:6 43:10

46:5 89:2 100:13

137:3 169:18

221:6 234:6

248:2,15,22

260:12 261:1

264:3 266:4

273:13 285:5

294:8

295:6,13,17

296:8 297:18,20

reported 1:18

90:18 312:4

reporter 45:8

311:1,3,17 312:4

Reporter's 312:6

reporting 1:19

47:20

reports 118:17

166:3 169:18

represent 277:7

279:12

representation

95:22 201:19

representations

168:17 202:2

representative

263:5

representing

212:16

represents 95:5

request 152:18

165:17 225:13

229:9 237:11

290:20 292:9

requested 54:5

requesting 115:10

require 15:14

45:20 85:2

103:16 172:6

201:13

required 12:3 16:8

52:18 95:17

106:1 197:19

230:15,17

241:10 247:7

259:4 267:4

286:9

requirement

105:18 116:1

156:22 173:10

186:2 241:15

287:2

requirements

99:17 101:17

111:9 115:16

129:15 132:15

137:22 143:22

199:12 201:3

217:7 218:2

252:5,15

285:8,11 287:5

294:17

requires 24:1

requiring 35:21

171:12

research 6:18

56:13 57:21

182:4

resemble 66:21

resend 4:22

reserve 226:1

Reserved 239:14

residential 71:14

88:17 171:1

194:1 198:13,22

203:20

residual 264:20

resistance 9:9

56:21 133:17,22

resistor 56:22 57:1

resolution 81:11

275:13,19 276:8

resolve 236:12

292:5 293:19

resolved 90:3

293:12

resource 293:10

resources 107:22

169:9 278:10

respect 86:8

182:19

response 69:3

71:10

responsibility

99:20

responsible 53:20

293:2,3

responsive 111:10

rest 109:11 154:13

176:16 250:5

273:14 309:3

restate 281:22

282:1

restriction 62:10

restrictive 119:18

135:20

result 103:18

108:4,11 115:20

208:21 210:19

302:15

resulting 79:21

retain 76:4

retaining 75:4

retest 276:20

279:7 281:12,14

283:3,13

rethink 225:20

retrofit 69:6

retrofits 116:3

return

64:13,14,15,21

108:2 141:15

157:12

reverse 229:14

review 222:9

reviewing 223:5

revise 266:3

270:5,16,22

revision 61:12

229:10

revisit 165:1

rewrite 224:19
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 44

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

Rheem 3:3

Rheem's 105:1

rid 234:12

ridiculous 242:5

rise 131:15 154:22

risk 35:5 177:11

304:2

risks 176:21

275:21

Rivest 3:7

15:13,17,22

16:20 17:1 23:5

29:6,10 34:21

35:10 37:14

47:5,11 48:8,21

54:12 55:3

56:14,18 62:1

63:4,12,15 73:13

74:21 75:7,12

79:16,20 86:4,11

90:7,12 116:7

118:1 122:12

124:12,20,22

125:4

128:13,18,21

144:19 148:3,15

178:20 280:4

281:7 291:14

293:7

Rob 248:6,9

Robert 3:17

rocks 120:16

rods 203:7

roll 297:9

rolling 278:22

Ron 115:3 163:9

166:2

Ronald 3:10

roof 120:10 126:1

rooftop 119:11

122:2 149:1

196:10

room 123:8,9

150:6 152:21

170:6 218:15

228:18

rotates 123:1

route 172:4,5

rows 101:9

rule 15:7,8 181:22

182:1 186:16

197:5 222:1

224:8 226:13

230:5 239:3,8

257:12

rulemaking 1:3

110:8,14

113:2,16

114:1,12 224:11

242:1 247:13

310:16

rules 29:8 69:3

98:3 200:4

239:15

run 18:14,17

58:22 84:2 95:14

116:4 117:18

119:22

121:4,5,16

122:20 123:18

125:18 127:13

128:1 137:20

138:7,9,12,15,17

140:13 149:5,15

178:11 267:4

284:19 287:17

288:14,20

rundown 123:7

running 10:18

137:12 219:1

255:3 277:16

287:21 289:8

runs 18:14

Rusty 3:16 4:4,5

46:3

R-value 235:12

236:10

237:16,18

R-values 237:14

238:11 240:9

S

SA 186:6

Sachs 3:8 10:18

19:7,10,15,19,22

20:3,7 46:16

47:9 58:20

61:10,14

66:12,20

71:4,9,21 72:4,8

81:4 82:20

105:12 107:21

123:21 124:15

164:12 245:13

255:13 256:1

258:11

272:16,19

safety 286:10

sale 179:21 180:1

sales 89:10 192:21

199:8

sample 19:7,10

86:9 240:20

samples 240:14

298:18

sampling 47:22

SARAH 312:3,14

satellite 287:7,10

289:19

satisfied 220:4

satisfy 18:13 91:11

270:8 300:4

save 75:7 77:8,9

80:16 95:10

107:9 176:9

saved 93:7

saves 119:21

saving 77:3 80:18

94:2,11 106:9

107:12

savings 81:20 82:1

94:5 107:18

saw 4:17 84:6

154:2 278:8

SBC 98:8

scale 194:2

scenario 115:8

167:20 172:13

174:10,14

schedule 199:14

scheduled 108:2

scheme 10:12

39:13 43:22

45:20 46:3 111:9

121:18,20

207:11

schemes 48:17

154:14,17

scope 209:5

228:21 289:5

screaming 77:6,7

screen 21:6,7

272:18 308:16

screw 155:22

scroll 245:19

seasonal 128:3
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 45

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

seats 105:9

second 105:18

183:20 212:14

214:15,19

216:5,6 230:15

231:3 261:14

297:1 310:7

seconds 273:22

Secretary 224:9

226:17

section 122:20

172:17 190:3

209:10 215:6

226:3,9 229:7,8

261:12 272:9

sections 172:17,18

227:16

Security 2:22

seem 10:10 80:13

150:11 180:8

seemed 164:18

seems 36:21 37:9

59:13 60:11,19

80:10 116:21

132:6 134:13

139:13 157:10

159:11

seen 90:19 103:22

150:4 188:21

227:21

SEER 69:7 95:2

97:13,14

select 282:2

selected 11:8

132:18

selecting 199:13

selection 199:14

212:15 303:19

selections 62:11

132:13

302:11,14

self 18:10

self-contained

18:8 19:13

172:16 173:22

sell 52:20 105:18

106:4 124:11

125:22 176:9

191:7 192:12

193:11,12 256:2

sells 85:11

send 4:10 177:8

178:1 179:1

196:3 248:6

269:2 275:12

305:8 306:18

307:14 309:7

310:11

sending 164:13

223:17 269:14

sense 33:4 51:1

57:5 62:2 69:19

114:19 116:4

147:5 159:22

224:15 226:8

302:11

senses 81:5

sensible 105:19

126:18 196:17

sensitive 296:21

sensitivity 284:10

sent 4:12 7:19

212:7 267:19

306:13 308:22

310:1,4,9

sentence 216:5

230:15,21 231:3

232:3 265:9

271:11 290:21

sentences 229:21

230:12 231:5

separate

40:9,10,12 41:6

43:19 64:21 94:4

97:22 109:1

110:2 112:16

122:4 126:3

142:22

266:15,17

309:5,6

separately 32:20

33:20,21 40:13

42:14 44:20

76:3,4 79:21

231:12 261:11

294:8

served 93:7

serves 120:17

service 78:16

154:22 155:2

serving 149:2

SES 304:14

setting 67:16

100:3 110:3

174:12 255:2

settings 49:19

setup 166:17 263:3

270:12

seven 110:15

175:15 259:10

several 131:5,20

132:13 228:22

270:13 282:17

289:18

severe 79:3

shame 83:3

Shebik 3:10 10:22

11:4,10

12:7,10,12,16,19

,21 17:20,22

19:4,6,9,12,16,2

0 20:4,9 115:3

116:10

166:5,11,15,17

167:17 168:2,6,9

174:20 175:6

176:17 177:3,21

178:17

179:8,11,21

183:2,6,9,17

184:8,16

185:11,14,16

186:1,4,10 187:4

201:10,13

sheets 179:1

She's 284:15,16

shift 52:6,9 94:3

255:7

ship 179:16

shipped 16:13

161:15,17

267:10

shipping 19:17

163:20 181:16

shoot 20:3 82:5

short 113:19

142:10

shorter 164:14

shortly 308:9

shot

160:17,19,20,22

showed 191:4

showing 9:19

136:11 255:19

shown 272:18

shut 293:16

sick 291:18
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 46

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

significant 81:9

88:4 90:19 153:5

238:16

significantly 34:1

72:22 130:20

299:13

similar 9:11

30:18,21 31:2

71:11 115:6

142:20 157:6

similarly 216:4

simple 269:14

293:21

simpler 81:18

189:7 231:17

245:22

simplifies 13:17

simply 100:16

210:17 290:21

306:1 308:15

simulate 254:11

simulated 254:15

simulation 218:22

253:16

255:1,16,19

simulations

254:17

single 7:11 10:7

48:3 69:2 128:6

147:1 167:20

172:2 173:12

175:1,2 176:13

177:11,13,14

196:2 203:6

205:21 212:16

215:16

230:13,15

237:13,14,17

single-phase 70:8

singular 7:15

40:18 41:6

205:17

sir 212:5 233:17

251:10

sit 32:5 199:18

site 94:4

sitting 78:9 291:18

293:9

situation 70:17

84:3,17 99:1

143:21 164:9

188:19

situations 115:7

six 140:2

sixty-seven

64:10,11,14

size 151:13 199:11

299:12

sizes 277:7

SJI 2:15

skews 45:2

skin 57:9

skirt 89:5 100:11

Slap 179:19

slide 200:4 306:13

308:13

slides 307:9,12

slight 30:8 41:10

74:17

slightly 39:18

120:7

slope 154:5

slow 17:5 148:8,11

small 16:7 37:1

84:11 118:14

130:8 145:4

147:6,8 150:5,6

155:12,13,16

158:16,22

166:17

smaller 70:8 146:9

299:14 300:1

smash 120:16

smoke 154:16

soft 20:13

sold 89:3

190:16,17 191:1

195:12,13

solution 240:12

solving 90:19

somebody 21:13

25:1 50:4,5 51:3

56:18 70:21 77:4

85:22 94:19

102:2 103:22

163:17,20 170:6

172:14 195:14

207:2 212:1

225:19 237:11

259:17 288:12

somehow 24:9

75:22 162:2

171:9

someone 23:5,13

35:6 62:16 67:13

82:7 91:1 103:17

139:9 200:16

218:15 221:1

225:12 259:12

263:13

286:15,21

someway 142:1

somewhat 9:5

162:3

somewhere 38:14

102:2 114:2

143:3

sooner 227:11

sorry 6:6 22:14

37:20 75:14

122:12 148:15

215:5,14 234:4

260:2 291:19

sort 25:3 62:4 95:5

107:13 124:12

182:4 240:15

274:8

sorts 62:3

sound 81:12,21

131:3 152:14,19

153:3,4,13 246:7

sounded 117:6

sounds 16:2 34:12

41:14 51:20 59:3

86:20 116:12

141:2,4 200:1

source 10:18

29:20,21 53:3

140:11

162:21,22

202:16 206:8,15

sources 179:7

Southern 3:6

space 33:10 38:19

123:21 125:3

128:12 152:18

span 169:1 230:16

231:11

spans 219:19

spawn 128:10,11

SPEAKER 5:3,6,9

49:20

50:1,2,4,8,18

94:9 119:9 135:9

136:4,8,10,13

143:13

186:19,22 204:7
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 47

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

209:14 241:19

251:19

253:4,6,11,14

255:21 256:10

258:12,15

259:14 273:2

293:10,18 297:3

298:12,16

306:22 309:1

SPEAKERS

241:21

speaking 203:5

speaks 288:22

special 30:3 42:22

specific 8:7 38:15

39:12 43:4 45:2

46:19 109:21

113:6 169:17

180:8 193:4

200:22 201:2

203:21 221:3

specifically 16:15

17:17 105:3

117:11 194:22

261:15

specifications

101:16

specifics 188:19

specify 144:19

speed 128:3

spelled 21:10

spent 47:5 94:3

split 190:11,18,20

191:2,16 192:21

193:1 195:13

224:3

spoke 212:21

spray 73:14 75:16

83:22 122:17,18

spreadsheet 5:1,7

SPVU 207:4

SPVUs 206:22

SQL 270:1

square 60:5

164:22

squared 165:4

220:11

squaring 165:7

stacking

76:9,13,17

stage 128:1 148:10

staged 150:16

stages 148:6,12

staging 148:18

150:14

stand 104:7,9,10

240:2 259:17

stand-alone 122:4

142:22 143:5,9

191:17

standard 14:7

25:14 30:2 35:17

37:2,5,10,12

62:12 76:18

77:14 79:21

82:22 84:16

88:14 89:15

91:20 92:6,8,12

93:12,13,14

110:3 113:2

122:11 123:6

125:6,14

130:18,21

139:18,20

140:12,16

142:18

144:19,21

145:1,2 146:11

157:14 183:16

184:5,20 186:22

189:22

197:13,19 208:8

235:7,8,9 256:3

259:5,6,10

260:20

standards 1:3 16:8

46:9 53:18 78:1

84:13 88:1

108:10 109:3

110:6,7

111:1,2,21

125:21 134:8,12

138:16 177:5

183:22 184:13

185:5,20,21

188:12,13 195:2

197:8,18 287:14

310:16

standing 126:1

standpoint 64:2,6

117:5 170:10

stands 247:15

Stanonik 3:11 6:2

8:6,11,16

13:8,12,17,20

14:9,14

85:5,9,14,17

103:2 164:17

186:13,17,21

215:20

222:19,21

228:18 235:6

238:15

239:2,5,13

241:9,13,17

242:3 262:22

264:1,7,17,20

265:2,5 275:13

279:20

280:7,11,15,19

281:4,17

282:5,10,15,19

290:4,8 291:9

292:1 302:9,12

303:2,13

304:5,7,10,15,21

305:20,22 310:9

Star 59:4 168:18

169:6,10,16

177:17 208:14

Starr 3:13 17:5,12

23:13 24:16

25:13,22 26:3,10

42:20,21 53:14

56:20 58:21

59:12 60:2

61:4,13

64:8,11,18

65:4,11,16

66:3,5,8,11,22

67:6 68:5,9

69:17,22 70:2

75:16 80:10

94:20 97:13,19

98:1,12,15 100:8

107:2 132:1,5

134:17

145:15,18

146:1,5

147:12,18 148:5

149:22

150:3,10,16

151:3,9,11,20

152:4,10

153:13,19

155:18

156:8,15,18,21

157:6,13,17

199:7 200:1,5,7

206:19

226:10,14,21

227:6 232:4,7

254:4

Starr's 105:21

start 4:3 5:18 17:5
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 48

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

20:10 21:8

29:4,16 49:10

70:2 76:9,13,17

94:8 102:3

105:10 118:22

147:9,10,13

176:5 209:17

223:18 257:5

275:8

started 160:9

162:15 165:16

212:8 246:8

starting 119:2

123:22

startup 17:6

start-up 286:10

state 104:5 105:2

151:7 181:20,21

254:9

stated 114:6 148:1

290:9

statement 84:21

112:21 194:11

245:13 290:12

291:6

statements 160:2

states 151:10

static 132:20

137:16,21,22

138:6,13

140:6,8,13

144:18 153:8,9

161:14,18

statistician 300:14

statutory 99:20

108:13 184:10

stay 41:10 49:4

102:1 111:18

163:3 283:21

steady 254:9

steam 133:5,19

134:1 137:9,10

step 43:8 188:18

Stephens 3:15

8:18 9:2

13:2,11,18,22

14:16 15:1 16:5

17:4,19 89:2

118:6 168:21

169:15,22

170:2,5

171:2,15,18

172:11

187:11,14

207:19 219:17

220:1,6 240:4,21

250:13,21

255:5,9

261:13,22

262:2,8,11,14,18

263:15 286:19

287:6,13,19

296:17,20

297:1,5

299:9,17,21

steps 164:22

stick 95:2 96:11

sticking 244:16

stop 43:8 101:4

102:1

119:6,8,9,10

storage 234:18

235:1 238:17

store 3:6 18:7

19:14

stores 18:5 124:8,9

straight 187:22

Straightforward

211:6

strange 180:9

stratification

156:18

straw 81:7

Street 1:7

strictly 265:21

strip 133:13,18,21

142:10

structural 179:9

structure 164:3,11

struggling 44:5,11

studies 66:16

67:10

stuff 11:5,6,10

38:7 42:22 43:17

66:18 95:8 112:1

144:14 165:2

181:16 227:11

264:20 274:22

284:20

307:11,17,19

308:7

Style 232:6,8

styles 26:18

sub-bullet 263:2

sub-bullets 215:15

250:12

subgroup 229:1

subject 12:14

40:22 76:5 91:18

111:1,2,3 162:17

184:5,6,12,14

185:19,20,21

188:11 197:17

208:8 251:18

submit 101:8

266:3,4

submitted

268:6,19 269:3

submitting

269:12,20

suboffices 131:12

subsequent

218:19,21

subsets 72:5

substantiate 300:8

substantive

224:21

subtract 78:5

subtraction 24:4

sucks 123:1

suddenly 38:7

60:11

sufficient 18:18

suggest 28:12

46:22 238:18

290:4,13 298:22

300:3 301:5

suggested 212:14

suggesting 102:19

226:4 290:7,11

suggestion 29:21

230:20 301:7

305:22

suggestions 225:3

Suite 1:8

summarize 5:9

summarized 261:7

summary 261:5

supplement 162:8

supplied 58:5,16

101:18

supply 86:7

136:22 146:7
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 49

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

support 106:14

118:8 231:12,13

250:10

supposed 60:16

80:15 98:2,3

161:16

supposedly 258:20

sure 6:15 16:16

20:6 23:11 28:18

29:9 41:19 42:6

43:2 48:19 49:12

50:17 56:9 62:4

67:14 86:10

94:18 100:6

117:21 134:18

136:16 137:7

149:8 155:17

179:8 180:4

197:10 202:17

204:17 207:13

212:22 214:14

216:2,16 217:1

218:20 219:5

220:13,21

224:2,5 225:1

236:7 243:7

256:11 270:10

276:8 279:19

281:22 294:20

297:13 299:22

303:4 305:11

suspect 280:22

sustain 72:20

switch 105:14

symbol 47:3

synch 31:16

system 22:4 24:6

25:21 26:20

34:22 35:4 63:8

64:4 89:5 93:6

98:5,18

100:3,4,12 101:5

106:18 121:5,13

122:4,13

126:11,12,18,19

127:14 128:1,2,3

133:17 134:20

141:22

142:2,14,16

146:8,14,18

147:1,14 148:20

150:13 151:12

152:8,20,21

158:16

190:11,18,20

191:2 193:1

194:9 195:13,20

systems 78:7 93:17

122:10,15

126:5,6,8 137:19

150:21 174:7

192:21 195:19

system's 9:9

T

T-8 11:16

table 44:2 46:11

159:6 182:22

206:19 208:20

216:14 219:11

234:2 236:3,4,11

238:13 239:6,7

241:4 246:17

247:19,22

248:2,4,10,21

250:5,8 252:12

258:14

305:14,16

tables 223:8

252:17

tailored 8:2,7,11

taking 26:13 37:11

47:16 68:10,11

81:19 116:18

126:15 144:8

169:18 170:7

238:22

242:9,12,13,14,1

8 261:10 281:13

288:12

talk 38:13 49:5

60:15 104:4

108:5 132:19

137:2,19 162:13

164:6,18 166:4

170:1,8,21 171:3

172:15 182:1,2

204:7 205:5

210:8 211:1,4

217:14 233:4,5

268:2,14,18,20

294:14,16 307:1

talked 78:7 107:3

140:15 152:7

196:8 217:3

221:3 223:2

228:6 229:18

250:21 263:9

267:18 274:11

284:12 306:19

talking 6:17 9:12

13:22 15:18 21:8

27:9 43:16 57:13

59:10 60:3,12

69:7 79:4 83:21

85:9 86:14

88:2,15 98:13

102:20 132:9,10

146:19 161:20

172:1 187:4

190:6 191:11

196:16 203:19

204:21 212:15

223:3,7 224:1

234:21,22 236:8

237:5,6 243:15

247:7 283:18

302:22 307:5

308:11

talks 302:19

tank 240:17,18

tanks 234:18

235:1 238:17

task 30:7 107:19

tasks 74:2

tat 134:15

taught 200:3

team 10:21 42:22

technical 100:9

technically 30:5

93:15

technologies 2:18

72:14 149:19

technology 150:12

176:3,4 278:21

teenage 296:20

temperature 20:5

121:5 123:11,13

127:13 146:7

150:13

201:2,4,14,15

temperatures

18:16

templates 43:9

ten 7:3 78:19

123:19 175:14

178:11 222:19

253:9

274:2,11,18

276:6,12

277:10,17

278:19 281:16

283:5 306:3

Ten-11 222:20

tensile 91:16

tentative 51:16
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 50

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

71:5

tentatively 222:7

309:14

ten-ton 25:1

term 31:15 34:10

58:16,17 61:20

108:16

109:14,15,17

113:19 120:5

218:19 241:2

280:2

terminology

218:20 239:14

terms 11:7 23:15

24:16 27:3,21

43:9 46:21 48:4

117:20 125:4

148:15 164:12

170:9,15,16,21

181:3 188:1

271:10 275:3

286:20 294:14

308:11

territory 257:19

test 9:19,21 10:6

13:21

14:4,5,6,8,11,15,

18,20,21,22

15:2,4,20

17:2,7,10,13,14,

16 18:12,17,22

19:16,18 22:20

24:15 26:22

29:16 32:20

33:4,20 34:1,9

36:7,8,11,20

40:7,8,9 41:9

42:7,19,22 43:3

54:17 58:5,14,15

59:14,17 60:1,22

61:7,11 62:14

63:8 64:8

65:6,13,19 66:4

67:21 68:10

70:14,19 74:19

76:7 77:21

80:19,22 83:3

88:22 89:15

91:8,14 93:17

96:16 99:15

102:11,13

103:17 109:4,5

110:10 111:20

114:14 122:11

125:6 127:3

128:7,14

129:16,19

130:4,5,12

135:17,20,21

136:22 138:8,13

139:12 142:18

146:11 151:21

152:1 155:15

157:15

169:17,18

174:15 176:13

183:16

184:1,2,18 185:5

186:6,13,22

187:19

188:15,17

189:22 197:13

200:1,21

201:1,18

203:2,3,4,7,20

204:1,2

208:2,8,14

212:11,16,20

213:1,2,4 218:22

231:13 234:19

235:10,12

237:13,14,17

238:1

240:17,19,20

241:6 246:22

247:11,12,14

254:20 255:15

263:3 267:5

270:22 271:14

276:17,18 279:6

280:22 286:12

287:1,11,17,21

288:10,18,20

289:5 290:11

291:1,2,7,9,11

292:8 293:13,18

298:6,11,12

299:5,7 301:18

tested 33:15 35:1

42:9,10 54:13

60:20 63:1,2

78:10

82:10,12,14,15

85:3 88:4 90:18

91:19 93:17

100:18 101:15

114:16 130:11

139:5 170:10

177:11 181:17

189:2 195:2

217:18 218:2

236:6 245:5

246:20 247:4,5

253:16

254:11,16

255:20 256:19

285:22

286:11,21,22

290:19 291:2

292:8,9 302:21

305:19

testing 10:7 11:4

12:3,11,15,17

13:4,5 19:10

41:1 42:19 47:17

62:11 81:18

82:17,19 86:8

99:21 102:22

110:19,20

125:13 135:19

170:13 172:5,8

179:17 184:5,12

186:1 197:19

208:22 212:10

219:1 238:17

241:10,13 247:7

254:19 255:1

263:4 264:11

266:13 271:7,8

273:16,21

286:15,16 288:6

290:16 300:22

302:20

304:17,18,20

tests 12:8

18:15,16,18

173:2 203:6

219:21

230:15,18

254:16,20

256:14,15

266:14 280:21

288:14

290:15,22 299:5

304:2

testy 271:5

text 160:16

221:15,17

224:12

thank 17:4

50:13,20 113:8

172:11 174:3

213:8,9 214:10

215:13 234:4

239:13 245:8

246:15,16 260:4

283:14 285:2

Thanks 19:6 260:7

Tharp 3:16

21:15,20 22:1,3

24:21 25:6,9,11

26:15

28:7,12,19,22

29:18 30:5,10
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 51

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

31:12,16

32:10,14,18 33:7

61:17 69:15

72:2,7,12

73:3,22 101:7

119:21 120:2,22

121:15,19

127:10,19

128:10 133:7,15

135:5,11 136:16

146:21 155:11

202:13 205:5

206:15 208:10

218:18 219:7

231:19 253:18

254:8,12 258:4

259:19 270:20

271:6 282:21

283:6,14 288:2

292:12 297:9,12

298:22

301:5,10,13

305:7 307:14

that's 8:12 12:20

13:1,11 16:1,5

22:3,13 25:2,16

27:1 28:5,6

33:18 48:21

53:5,8 58:9

59:14 61:20

63:7,8,14,17

64:13 65:4,15

69:21 70:1 76:1

79:10 82:14,16

84:5 86:13,22

93:14 96:19 97:6

105:16 113:14

120:1 140:4

145:8 147:22

150:12 151:9

153:19 155:3

160:21 164:5

169:5 171:17

180:3 187:3

191:12 192:18

196:22 200:19

202:15 203:17

205:10 216:16

226:3 231:15

234:2 238:22

241:1 250:10

251:19 252:3,22

254:21 256:6

258:13 260:3

261:8 263:1

264:17 271:9

272:20

291:14,15

292:15 298:9

302:6 304:6

309:8 310:11

theatre 149:1

theatres 149:2

themselves 7:9

47:18 158:22

184:11 189:16

288:14

theoretical 54:21

66:13 107:15

theoretically 62:13

141:2 264:9

theories 32:6

theory 30:7 264:10

thereafter 311:6

therefore 119:14

thereof 40:7

there's 5:3 55:6,8

61:19,21,22 62:4

156:22 162:10

187:18 188:8

193:6 195:10

238:16 273:8

299:22 308:6

thermal 206:6

they're 30:17 52:2

73:20 89:6 99:17

126:6 154:6

155:19 175:8

258:3 289:8

305:11

thicker 33:5

thicknesses 33:7

third 105:22

115:19 160:3

172:4 210:18

254:18 261:22

262:2

263:1,5,19,20

286:15

290:10,15

291:1,10

292:8,13 297:1

308:6

Thirty 92:18

Thomas 1:18

311:3,17

thoughts 61:15

106:22 118:21

thousand

182:12,13

thousands 177:8

threat 293:7

three-phase 52:6

threw 252:3

throughout

109:11 233:14

297:7

throw 20:9 56:15

71:9 125:14,21

199:14 212:22

throwing 146:1

Thursday 1:11

tie 165:8

tier 11:11

tiers

166:13,14,15,16

Tim 35:13 51:2,16

76:2 82:4

timeline 308:12

Timothy 2:8

Tim's 40:5,21 75:3

86:2

tit 134:15

title 218:3

today 10:11 28:11

35:2 39:13,22

40:15,20 41:12

78:9 98:14

108:20 111:7

112:3 116:8,19

165:2 166:22

179:18 195:8

203:19 204:21

208:11 213:22

229:13 253:4,5

256:5 264:15,16

275:22 276:1

309:21

today's 308:8

tolerance 32:9

41:11 172:3

173:7 254:5

255:10,14

257:10

tolerances 250:11

251:5 255:7

295:19

Tom 2:19

tomorrow 113:10

114:21 306:18

308:14

toner 123:18,19
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 52

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

tonight 306:18

307:18

tons 57:14

top 38:7 130:7

203:3 207:20

215:7 261:6

topic 185:13

302:18

total 89:10 122:5

totally 104:13

247:9 302:14

touch 231:11

toward 189:3

towards 16:17

150:19 222:7

300:16

town 148:8

track 89:19

227:8,12 246:19

279:1 281:15

trade-off 112:10

train 288:13

trained 286:10

288:9

trainer 288:12

training 288:22

Trane 2:17 104:3

193:12

transcript 227:3

311:7 312:5,7

transcription

312:1,8

Transcriptionist

312:14

transfer 3:15

30:9,10 72:18

transition

113:11,12

translate 107:7

224:8,11

translated 226:13

transmission

148:13

transmissive

240:17

transport 181:21

trap 153:3,4,13

traps 81:13,21

152:14

Traulsen 2:12

251:12

treat 108:22 113:4

125:5 194:4

treated 125:12

Trek 59:4

tried 157:22

180:12 209:3

trillion 10:9

trouble 46:17

true 2:16 35:16

63:14 65:15

86:13 96:7

100:13 117:10

135:11 151:9

171:16 190:14

298:9 311:7

312:7

truly 78:11 83:14

trust 229:4 249:7

250:2

try 18:19 28:7,8

81:10 100:7

165:8 168:2

189:9 203:10

257:14 272:14

288:10

trying 10:19 21:13

42:3 44:12

45:10,11 46:20

47:10 48:16 50:4

57:8 77:12,15,18

87:1 88:19

89:5,15,22 90:4

94:18 96:3

98:5,9,16 99:2

100:5,11 105:12

114:20 140:4

173:18 177:2

190:9 194:8

195:6 227:5

277:1 279:12

281:17

298:20,21

tuff 162:11

tune 202:17

turn 84:7

149:14,20 166:2

170:5

turndown 127:20

turns 38:3 150:7,8

twice 170:13

twofold 140:4

two-speed 148:11

type 80:7 81:1

101:10 172:16

186:5 213:16

224:6 286:16

typed 236:1 312:5

types 12:1,2 15:5

43:18 61:18

123:2 133:11

188:16 211:14

typewriting 311:6

typical 60:4,7,18

159:15 164:10

typically 31:10

34:6 42:21 44:6

73:1 121:6,16

135:18 146:9

152:17 156:11

157:12

U

U.S 2:7,9,11 3:7

60:10 179:22

ultimate 113:18

177:10

ultimately 113:1

263:21 267:22

268:3,10

unanimous

210:16,21 211:7

212:12 244:1

249:1 250:10

261:2 295:18

297:19

uncheck 278:22

uncoated 86:7

uncomfortable

224:16 306:6

uncomfortablenes

s 112:17

uncommon 53:14

179:5

undercut 75:8

underneath

274:22

understand 6:15

23:19 35:2 42:6

51:12 71:6 76:20

77:18 84:20 98:4

113:20 140:9

158:20 159:7,14

162:4 167:9
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 53

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

177:3 195:7

202:7 204:17

218:15 227:20

232:13

236:14,16

250:15 262:21

271:3 281:3

282:1

289:2,15,16

305:22 306:5

understanding

11:17 13:1

171:11 219:6

264:1

understood 38:9

Underwriters 2:21

unfired 236:21

243:1

unfortunately

52:17 188:20

unique 11:14 18:9

199:21

uniqueness 19:14

unit 16:13,14

23:17 24:11,15

25:1,2,13,15

26:21 35:16

36:7,8,12,22

53:2 54:14

60:4,7

63:10,13,21

68:15,17 74:4

75:20 76:7 78:19

82:15,18,19

91:21 93:11

95:4,6 105:3

124:6 126:19

128:4 129:10

132:2 138:7

142:8 144:20,22

149:1 150:5

152:18

154:11,18

155:1,2,3,20

157:7,17 170:9

172:2 173:6

177:9,11,13

182:5 189:16

190:10,16,17,22

191:1,7

193:5,12,13

194:10 199:17

240:21 267:10

273:15,20 278:5

unit-only 190:1

192:20

units 9:8,20 42:11

57:14 62:14

71:12 88:16

90:18 91:17

97:4,7 99:10

110:10 119:11

126:17 142:2

146:9,21 149:10

153:12 155:16

156:10,21 157:3

177:4 189:15

191:14,16

196:18 197:8

240:21 246:20

247:3 254:20

300:8,12 302:21

304:13

universe 19:7,11

47:15

unjust 300:1

unknown 257:20

unless 40:8 41:12

42:14 79:7

150:22 172:8

174:14

298:18,20

unlike 67:7

unlikely 25:9

unnecessary

266:16

unpowered 234:18

238:17

unresolved 238:16

unusual 124:2

update 158:12

updated 209:22

upload 269:21

270:14

upon 44:14 96:16

98:20 108:14

184:10 209:9

219:2 290:20

upstream 153:16

usability 93:21

usage 65:20 122:5

useful 106:6

usually 23:16

53:15 60:8

152:15 166:14

199:12 307:3

UTC 2:22

utilities 107:10

113:6

utility 52:7 80:14

84:20 95:13

105:20 109:21

113:5 134:18

UV 155:10

V

valid 231:4

validate 172:22

252:18 301:1

validated 173:1

260:14 300:22

validation

215:2,19 216:7,8

217:4 218:4

219:19 224:4

230:13,16,17

231:11 234:9

238:19 245:18

248:4,17

Validations

234:15

valuable 281:14

293:10

value 7:11 74:16

80:12 235:10

240:15 253:16

254:8,11,15,16,2

1

values 41:13 43:17

78:10 147:13

valve 147:19

valves 146:16

variable 38:16,18

47:19 127:19

128:2

variables 38:22

55:15

variation 40:7

90:19

variations 188:21

variety 179:7

various 11:22

vary 39:3 103:12

VEACH 312:3,14

vendor 237:8

ventilating 126:7

ventilation 143:22

venting 9:7

verification 11:8

12:14,17 14:20
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 54

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

40:22 62:11

111:4 170:15

253:3,12,14

254:19 261:4

271:7 274:6

285:7,10

290:15,22

294:14 295:18

302:6 305:17

verified 101:14,16

verify 13:4 101:14

180:14

verifying 254:7

version 19:14

37:19 40:11

67:12 223:16

versions 119:17

versus 20:14 40:11

112:11 163:16

178:3 190:17

191:1 192:21

195:12

vertical 130:15,19

VFD 127:18 128:4

via 224:22 262:1

videoconferencing

261:17,18

view 57:7

views 269:3

vinegar 78:17 81:4

violating 93:14

vision 118:2

voids 104:9

voltage 202:19

203:4,16,21

204:1

voltages 203:15

volts 55:15

volume 177:8

vote 204:22 207:14

209:9 210:3,5

222:14

223:13,17,20

224:22

225:5,11,13,20,2

2 226:3 227:6

229:8,13,14

232:15 235:22

242:7,10 244:8

248:13,19 254:3

259:20

260:18,21

272:17 283:18

285:3,8 292:4,17

295:18 297:19

305:7

306:9,10,11,12

voted 236:8

261:12 308:16

voters 244:1

votes 209:22

224:9,10 250:7

voting 209:16

210:12 212:1

221:12,20

222:10 223:9

224:1 226:9

229:6 232:22

242:22 243:6

245:2 247:19,20

249:22 261:5

292:22 293:20

294:3 296:5,12

297:16 300:17

301:6 308:14

W

wait 50:14 204:12

227:22 280:7

293:6

waiting 5:17 206:3

waiver 109:5

130:6,13 183:13

184:2 185:6,7

188:17

197:12,14 214:9

221:9,10 272:5

waivers 188:15

213:3 247:13

walk 23:5 27:15

28:12

walked 192:19

walking 23:14

258:4

warm 214:20

warranties 103:21

warranty

104:1,7,10

wash 120:7

washing 60:17

Washington 1:9

wasn't 164:18

281:7

watch 289:6

water 5:18 6:8,22

8:22 13:18

15:13,15 29:20

122:17,18 125:2

134:2 140:11

162:21,22 163:3

169:20,22 172:1

188:6,7,10,12

206:15 208:2

214:18

234:9,18,22

235:13,17

236:21 241:4,10

285:16 286:3,5

287:19

wattage 138:22

wattages 119:14

watts 55:15,17

155:20

ways 99:17 105:14

106:2 121:1

124:2 131:13

141:16 142:1

150:18

176:11,12

webinar 49:17

50:9

websites 178:22

week 171:3,5

222:13 223:16

309:18,19

weekend 225:15

weeks 28:14 57:21

58:2 96:12 147:4

158:13 162:7

165:22 301:7

weigh 26:12

275:21 276:7

weight 112:12

120:14 176:20

welcome 164:6

we'll 22:22 28:13

39:5 57:21

160:8,19,20

220:13 241:5

307:1 308:13

we're 10:7 14:5,21

17:17 45:6 62:20

66:6 79:10,11

85:9 88:2

89:6,13 144:8

170:18 202:17

203:19 204:21

215:9,17,18

222:16 234:8
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 55

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

236:7 237:5

246:5 247:16

271:5 272:15

275:17 281:13

291:21 294:21

298:21

302:18,22

309:14

wet 122:15

we've 21:7 90:15

160:10

204:10,12,13

235:4 277:20,21

whatever 25:14

43:21 49:13

82:11 101:18

106:17 111:2

152:22 159:2

161:21 180:2

199:18 210:21

213:4 217:20

227:7 238:18

240:22 247:5

255:16

264:11,14

266:13 267:10

296:18,21 297:5

wheel 122:19,22

124:1 125:17

whenever 270:7

307:13

whereas 46:3

67:14 276:17

Whereupon

165:14 310:15

wherever 181:18

whether 39:8 99:2

106:5 161:3

162:5 175:21

189:14

193:11,20

195:1,2,4

203:7,8 206:4

210:19,20

212:8,11 224:17

228:21

242:10,22 254:7

257:9 266:11,12

291:5 294:3

299:6

whistles 278:4,14

whittle 147:9

302:4

Whitwell 3:17

4:22

5:5,8,11,13,15

8:2 20:15,21

23:7,22 26:7

29:1,13 30:21

31:2,22 32:4

34:3,18 36:4,6

37:13,20 38:2

39:5,8,16 40:1

42:5,16

53:1,6,10,18

54:2,14 55:5

59:17,20,22

63:10,16,19

64:15,17,20

65:2,8,14 68:22

70:5 72:16

73:4,6,18

74:3,7,17,20

75:2,14,18

76:6,20 87:9

97:17 120:8,13

121:21 126:9

127:8 128:15,19

129:6,18,22

130:14 131:19

132:9,17,22

133:18,21 136:6

137:5,9 140:5,9

142:20 143:2,22

145:8,10

156:4,20 157:20

158:9 192:15

205:8,14,19

206:1

216:4,11,16

217:1,8,10,16,19

218:9,11

228:5,14 252:1

256:4,11,14,17,2

0 257:2,8,14,19

258:8,19

259:1,9,12,13

263:9 266:20

267:1,4,11

274:20

277:5,12,16,19

278:2,6,13

279:4,8,11,19

283:16 298:3

302:17

303:3,8,11

309:10,15

whole 16:17 37:11

54:1 56:15 71:7

94:11 99:18

123:16 173:15

188:8 210:5

211:5 229:10

261:12 262:21

283:19 284:3

297:21,22

298:15 304:8

307:6

wholesale 28:20

84:17 247:13

275:22 276:2

whom 311:4

wide 84:19,22

277:8

wide-scale 93:2

willing 108:16,18

109:13 286:21

wind 107:20

wine 185:9

Wisconsin 181:17

withheld 268:5

withhold 227:16

249:21

witness 289:3

witnessing 255:2

wondered 246:18

wonderful 160:18

wondering 20:2

wording 75:22

180:18 218:14

228:14 244:14

245:5 249:7

264:2

work 15:14 27:6

38:10,11 46:13

71:11 88:20

105:15 107:11

108:17,19 111:8

113:13,21 141:1

151:2 153:7

158:4,13 159:8

162:6 170:11

176:11 186:17

189:3 227:13

240:9 246:10

269:21 283:9

303:3,6 309:8

workable 13:15

39:21

working 7:17

50:18 67:8

107:22 114:22

227:10 246:8

247:15,16

249:19 294:15

309:14

works 10:12 39:9

50:15 67:7,14
Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 05-30-2013

Page 56

(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013

world 15:12 78:13

79:13 83:7 189:4

194:7

worried 17:5

83:15

worry 89:11

150:19

worst 167:20

168:10 174:13

worst-case

174:10,22

wrap 240:5

write 170:22 221:2

250:16

writes 249:22

writing 232:11

written 19:2 49:3

244:17 274:9

wrong 21:11 49:19

231:16 249:9

251:1

wrote 169:21

170:4

X

Xerox 123:18

Y

yellow 158:14

yesterday 6:17

9:15 14:10 15:18

50:7 60:3 66:16

164:18 166:9

204:15 205:9

208:12 212:9

215:21 217:3,13

218:18 219:18

225:17 266:11

267:14 281:7

283:11 285:13

286:7 287:4

288:8 299:10

yesterday's 308:8

yet 28:5 29:20

45:17,19 50:2

105:22 149:7

163:1 170:19

175:13 206:16

213:19 227:19

234:3 267:18

275:1 289:8

293:11

you'll 57:9

Yours 279:17

yourself 255:18

you've 76:11,12

106:17,18,19

186:7 202:11

Z

zero 185:4 255:14

zones 60:8 151:1,2