### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **PUBLIC MEETING ON THE TEST PROCEDURE FOR TELEVISION SETS** 

**+ + + + THURSDAY**  **APRIL 4, 2013 + + + + +**  **The public meeting convened in Room 8E-089, U.S. Department of Energy, 1000**  **Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, Moderator,**  **presiding. PRESENT**  **DOUG BROOKMAN, Public Solutions, Inc., Moderator**  **ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy BILL BELT, Consumer Electronics Association**  **LOUIS-BENOIT DESROCHES, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **JEREMY DOMMU, Department of Energy JON FAIRHURST, Sharp**  **KURT KLINKE, Navigant Consulting BIJIT KUNDU, Energy Solutions**  **MICHAEL McMANUS, Fuse KEVIN MORRISSEY, Navigant Consulting**  **FRANCINE PINTO, Department of Energy VERENA RADULOVIC, EPA**  **GREGORY ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **ANTHONY ROTOLO, Navigant Consulting BILL SCHINDLER, Panasonic**  **CHARLIE STEPHENS, NEEA JARID STRIKE, UL LLC**  **CHRISTOPHER WOLD, CLASP**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **PRESENT VIA WEBINAR RANDY BANTON, Corporate R&D**  **THOMAS BOLIOLI, Terra Novum RICHARD FASSLER, Power Integrations**  **ANTHONY FRYER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project**  **JEFF HOWELL, Toshiba DAVID MACIEL, Sony Electronics**  **JIM MORGAN, Sony Electronics V. SMART, C&R**  **MATTHEW SWINK, Department of Justice EDSON TAKEI, Best Buy**  **ALLEN TSAO, Navigant LINDA WILSON, NYS OAG** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS Page**  **Welcome, Introductions and Opening Statements**  **Doug Brookman and Jeremy Dommu.... 4 Rulemaking History & Timeline**  **Jeremy Dommu..................... 12 Summary of SNOPR**  **Jeremy Dommu..................... 16 On-Mode Test with Automatic**  **Brightness Control Enabled Anthony Rotolo................... 19**  **Illuminance Values Anthony Rotolo................... 61** 

**Definitions Anthony Rotolo................... 87**  **Test Conditions Kurt Klinke...................... 141**  **Accuracy of Equipment Kurt Klinke...................... 171**  **Standby-Active, High and Standby-Active Low Mode**  **Kurt Klinke...................... 175 Energy Efficiency Metrics and Ratings**  **Louis-Benoit Desroches........... 204 Next Steps and Closing Remarks**  **Jeremy Dommu..................... 236**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **(9:01 a.m.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, please take** 

### 4 **yours seats. We are going to get going here.** 

### 5 **Good morning everyone and welcome.** 

### 6 **This is the U.S. Department of Energy's** 

### 7 **supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking** 

### 8 **public meeting on the test procedure for** 

### 9 **television sets. Today is April 4, 2013 here** 

### 10 **in Washington, D.C. at the Forrestal Building.** 

### 11 **My name is Doug Brookman from** 

### 12 **Public Solutions in Baltimore. I'm glad you** 

### 13 **are here this morning. We are going to start** 

### 14 **off this morning with welcoming remarks from** 

### 15 **Jeremy Dommu.** 

### 16 **MR. DOMMU: Hello, everyone. Good** 

### 17 **morning. I am Jeremy Dommu. I am the project** 

### 18 **manager overseeing DOE's rulemaking activities** 

### 19 **to establish a test procedure for television** 

### 20 **sets. As Doug mentioned, today's meeting is** 

### 21 **the meeting for the supplemental notice of** 

### 22 **proposed rulemaking. So I welcome everyone's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 continued involvement in DOE's activities.**  

### 2 **As many of you know, I have been** 

### 3 **fortunate enough to meet many of you over the** 

### 4 **past year since I took over the rulemaking** 

### 5 **activities from my former colleague, Victor** 

### 6 **Petrolati. If anyone is interested, I** 

### 7 **actually did reach out to Vic and said hey we** 

### 8 **are having this public meeting. Why don't you** 

### 9 **come as a citizen? He said, unfortunately I** 

### 10 **am doing a little spring skiing up in New** 

### 11 **England.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: That is very** 

### 13 **unfortunate.** 

### 14 **MR. DOMMU: So he is clearly doing** 

### 15 **well in retirement. So I look forward to the** 

### 16 **conversation today, getting feedback from** 

### 17 **interested parties both those in person and** 

### 18 **via the webinar. And I think we could go** 

### 19 **ahead and begin.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Great. So let's** 

### 21 **start with introductions. That is what we** 

### 22 **typically do. And I will start to my**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 immediate left and you can get used to turning**  

### 2 **these microphones on and off. Please say your** 

### 3 **name and organizational affiliation.** 

### 4 **MR. WOLD: This is Christopher** 

### 5 **Wold from the Collaborative Labeling and** 

### 6 **Appliance Standards Program.** 

### 7 **MR. SCHINDLER: This is Bill** 

### 8 **Schindler with Panasonic.** 

### 9 **MR. FAIRHURST: This is Jon** 

### 10 **Fairhurst from Sharp Labs of America. I am** 

### 11 **also involved in chairing some related groups** 

### 12 **in CEA and IEC.** 

### 13 **MR. KUNDU: This is Bijit Kundu** 

### 14 **from Energy Solutions on behalf of the** 

### 15 **California Investor-Owned Utilities.** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens** 

### 17 **from the Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance.** 

### 18 **MS. PINTO: Francine Pinto from** 

### 19 **the General Counsel's Office of DOE.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley, do you want** 

### 21 **to introduce yourself?** 

### 22 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 DOE.**  

### 2 **MR. DESROCHES: Louis Desroches,** 

### 3 **Lawrence Berkeley Lab.** 

### 4 **MR. KLINKE: Kurt Klinke, Navigant** 

### 5 **Consulting.** 

### 6 **MR. ROTOLO: Anthony Rotolo,** 

### 7 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist,** 

### 9 **Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please introduce** 

### 11 **yourself.** 

### 12 **MR. STRIKE: Jarid Strike, UL.** 

### 13 **MR. MORRISSEY: Kevin Morrissey,** 

### 14 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks to** 

### 16 **all of you for being here so we can get an** 

### 17 **early start on the day. All of you received a** 

### 18 **packet of information as you checked in this** 

### 19 **morning, an agenda, a PowerPoint slide packet** 

### 20 **and the Federal Register notice.** 

### 21 **I will do a very brief agenda** 

### 22 **review here. Immediately following this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 agenda review, there is an opportunity for**  

### 2 **anybody who wishes to do so to make an opening** 

### 3 **statement, brief summary remarks about issues** 

### 4 **that matter to you that you might wish to** 

### 5 **emphasize here at the outset.** 

### 6 **Following that, a rulemaking** 

### 7 **history and timeline overview. And then** 

### 8 **immediately following on the following subject** 

### 9 **matter, summary of the SNOPR, on-mode test and** 

### 10 **automatic brightness control enabled. We will** 

### 11 **take a break mid-morning, around about 11:00** 

### 12 **or so.** 

### 13 **Following the mid-morning break,** 

### 14 **illuminance values, then definitions. We will** 

### 15 **take lunch right about 12:30 or so today.** 

### 16 **And then following lunch or** 

### 17 **whenever we get there, test conditions. And** 

### 18 **then accuracy of equipment and then finally --** 

### 19 **oh, not finally -- standby-active mode, high** 

### 20 **and standby-active low mode.** 

### 21 **And the agenda that I have -- here** 

### 22 **we go. And then following, if we get to a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 mid-afternoon break around about 3:00 or so,**  

### 2 **then following the mid-afternoon break, energy** 

### 3 **efficiency metrics and ratings, and then** 

### 4 **finally next steps and closing remarks** 

### 5 **whenever we get there, 3:45 or so. And yet** 

### 6 **another opportunity for anybody that wants to** 

### 7 **to make a concluding statement, concluding** 

### 8 **remarks, to make sure your issues are covered** 

### 9 **today sufficiently.** 

### 10 **So that is the plan. Okay?** 

### 11 **Questions or comments on any of that?** 

### 12 **I would ask for your** 

### 13 **consideration. Please speak one at a time, if** 

### 14 **you would today. Please say your name for the** 

### 15 **record each time you speak. There will be a** 

### 16 **complete transcript of this meeting made** 

### 17 **available to you. If you could be concise and** 

### 18 **share the air time, there is lots to be said.** 

### 19 **We don't want to waste anyone's time here.** 

### 20 **Please keep the focus here. Turn** 

### 21 **your cell phones on silent mode. Limit the** 

### 22 **sidebar conversations. You have already**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 gotten used to turning these microphones on**  

### 2 **and off.** 

### 3 **Webinar participants, we welcome** 

### 4 **you. How many do we have, Jack, on the web?** 

### 5 **JACK: Seven.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Seven joining us** 

### 7 **via the web. The Department of Energy is** 

### 8 **trying hard to make these meetings accessible** 

### 9 **to folks via the web. Please keep your** 

### 10 **telephones on mute so that we don't get** 

### 11 **feedback here in the room. And if you wish to** 

### 12 **speak, raise a question, or make a comment,** 

### 13 **please raise your hand on the software -- on** 

### 14 **the webinar system and we will try and get you** 

### 15 **in this conversation.** 

### 16 **So that is all I have here at this** 

### 17 **time. Do you want to --** 

### 18 **MR. DOMMU: Sure.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy Dommu.** 

### 20 **MR. DOMMU: Hello, everyone. For** 

### 21 **the welcome slide, it looks like Doug just** 

### 22 **went through it. We did introductions and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 discussed the ground rules. We have gone over**  

### 2 **the agenda, provided guidance for those** 

### 3 **listening via the web. So the purpose of** 

### 4 **today's test procedure public meeting is to** 

### 5 **present the changes that DOE has made to the** 

### 6 **proposed test procedure for television sets.** 

### 7 **We will be inviting comment on the test** 

### 8 **procedure supplemental notice of proposed** 

### 9 **rulemaking, often referred to as an SNOPR** 

### 10 **throughout the day. We will discuss next** 

### 11 **steps in this rulemaking and invite** 

### 12 **participants to raise any additional issues** 

### 13 **for discussion. So we look forward to a** 

### 14 **lively and fulfilling conversation today.** 

### 15 **So throughout today's** 

### 16 **presentation, we will see these issues boxes** 

### 17 **pop up. So when we see the issue box, it will** 

### 18 **be an invitation to present an issue that we** 

### 19 **are specifically requesting comment on. The** 

### 20 **issues boxes have a letter and then they also** 

### 21 **have a footnote that corresponds to the list** 

### 22 **of issues on which DOE seeks comment in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 SNOPR. So at the end of the actual SNOPR**  

### 2 **document, there is a list of specific issues** 

### 3 **and we will note how those correspond within** 

### 4 **the issue boxes.** 

### 5 **The deadline for submitting** 

### 6 **comments is in several weeks on April 26.** 

### 7 **So at this time, DOE welcomes** 

### 8 **opening remarks on the test procedure. So if** 

### 9 **anyone in person or via webinar wants to make** 

### 10 **any opening remarks, now is your opportunity.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Opening statements** 

### 12 **at this time? I guess we have none. Okay,** 

### 13 **you may proceed.** 

### 14 **MR. DOMMU: Okay, so I will begin** 

### 15 **with a rulemaking history and timeline. So as** 

### 16 **you can see here, this is kind of a summary of** 

### 17 **what has transpired as DOE has looked to** 

### 18 **establish a test procedure for televisions.** 

### 19 **So the original test procedure for TVs was** 

### 20 **first adopted in 1979. It was repealed in** 

### 21 **2009, after the FCC transitioned from analogue** 

### 22 **to digital.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 In 2010, DOE began rulemaking**  

### 2 **activities to establish a modernized test** 

### 3 **procedure for televisions that began with a** 

### 4 **Request for Information publication. Then in** 

### 5 **2012, there was an original notice of proposed** 

### 6 **rulemaking. Over the last year, DOE has done** 

### 7 **quite a bit of additional analysis and** 

### 8 **investigation. And last month we published** 

### 9 **the supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking** 

### 10 **for the TV test procedure. And we are here at** 

### 11 **the public meeting on April 4th and we will be** 

### 12 **accepting written comments.** 

### 13 **And the next step will likely be a** 

### 14 **final TV test procedure, bearing having to** 

### 15 **publish an additional SNOPR but we are looking** 

### 16 **to move forward with this rulemaking as** 

### 17 **quickly as we can and we will publish the** 

### 18 **final TV test procedure as soon as we are able** 

### 19 **to.** 

### 20 **For a background and overview, you** 

### 21 **will see here the Federal Register notice. It** 

### 22 **could be found in the Federal Register. It is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 available on the regulations docket, EERE**  

### 2 **2010-BT-TP-0026.** 

### 3 **You could also find links to the** 

### 4 **documents on DOE's website, which I could** 

### 5 **hopefully pull up here. So if you haven't** 

### 6 **seen this, I have just pulled up DOE's** 

### 7 **rulemaking website. This website has links to** 

### 8 **all the important documents related to this** 

### 9 **rulemaking. You could see the notice of** 

### 10 **proposed rulemaking, documents from last year** 

### 11 **and now down here in the table is a** 

### 12 **supplemental notice of proposed rulemaking, so** 

### 13 **you would see a link to the actual NOPR.** 

### 14 **There is a link to the agenda and today's** 

### 15 **presentation here as well. So if you are** 

### 16 **following along on the webinar, you could go** 

### 17 **to the rulemaking web page and pull up the** 

### 18 **presentation if you want to follow along at** 

### 19 **your own pace. And then there is a number of** 

### 20 **supporting documents that provide test results** 

### 21 **and test reports for some of the additional** 

### 22 **analysis and testing that we performed in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 support of today's SNOPR. And those documents**  

### 2 **are also - you could find links to them here** 

### 3 **on DOE's website.** 

### 4 **Okay, so DOE activities since the** 

### 5 **SNOPR. So in the last year, there has been** 

### 6 **quite a few developments in the world of** 

### 7 **establishing test procedures for televisions** 

### 8 **that DOE has been reviewing and following** 

### 9 **along actively. Those include the ENERGY STAR** 

### 10 **Program Requirements for Televisions version** 

### 11 **6.0, a draft of CEA-2037-A, and IEC 62087.** 

### 12 **Some of these documents have provided further** 

### 13 **specification and input into developing test** 

### 14 **procedures for televisions. DOE has followed** 

### 15 **them and has incorporated some of the aspects** 

### 16 **of those test procedures into today's SNOPR.** 

### 17 **Additionally following the NOPR,** 

### 18 **there were several comments about providing** 

### 19 **additional specification for television** 

### 20 **testing, particularly as it relates to testing** 

### 21 **on-mode with automatic brightness control** 

### 22 **enabled by default. So DOE has performed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 additional testing to evaluate different test**  

### 2 **setups. We also did investigative testing on** 

### 3 **the effect of room conditions on automatic** 

### 4 **brightness control, investigative testing on** 

### 5 **the use of an ND and an IR/UV filter. That is** 

### 6 **neutral density and an infrared ultraviolet** 

### 7 **filter when performing automatic brightness** 

### 8 **control testing. Investigative testing on** 

### 9 **input terminals.** 

### 10 **And all of the test results from** 

### 11 **this investigative testing are available on** 

### 12 **regulations.gov, which could be accessed** 

### 13 **through the DOE rulemaking website which I** 

### 14 **just showed you. So, we will be going through** 

### 15 **all of that investigative testing and** 

### 16 **discussing the results and the conclusions** 

### 17 **that we reached from it throughout today's** 

### 18 **presentation.** 

### 19 **Well now I will move forward and** 

### 20 **what I am going to do is provide a brief** 

### 21 **overview of the SNOPR before we get into the** 

### 22 **details. I will preface to say that the way**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 we structured today's public meeting is we**  

### 2 **will first provide an overview of what was** 

### 3 **originally proposed in the NOPR. We will then** 

### 4 **discuss any additional investigative testing** 

### 5 **or any additional research that DOE performed.** 

### 6 **And then we will get into the new proposal** 

### 7 **that has been made in the SNOPR. So we are** 

### 8 **going to be focusing today's conversation only** 

### 9 **on those areas of the test procedure that have** 

### 10 **changed since we last published the NOPR, held** 

### 11 **a public meeting and solicited public comment.** 

### 12 **So let me provide an overview.** 

### 13 **Based on the testing and comments that DOE** 

### 14 **received from the NOPR, we have updated the** 

### 15 **following sections.** 

### 16 **So many of the changes are to** 

### 17 **testing on-mode with automatic brightness** 

### 18 **control enabled by default. This includes** 

### 19 **additional specification on the test setup,** 

### 20 **the room setup, the use of filters, light** 

### 21 **sources, TV placement. We also updated the** 

### 22 **illuminance values for testing. In the NOPR**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 we proposed to test on-mode of ABC enabled by**  

### 2 **default at room illumination of 10, 50, 100,** 

### 3 **and 300 lux but now in the SNOPR we have since** 

### 4 **changed that proposal and we are now proposing** 

### 5 **to test at 3, 12, 35, and 100 lux. We also** 

### 6 **have updated a number of definitions and test** 

### 7 **conditions in the SNOPR, specifically some are** 

### 8 **related to the input terminal and the video** 

### 9 **input device. We have added new** 

### 10 **specifications on the accuracy of the** 

### 11 **measurement equipment to be used in testing.** 

### 12 **For standby mode, previously in** 

### 13 **the NOPR DOE proposed a test to test standby** 

### 14 **mode -- standby active high mode, but that** 

### 15 **test has been removed from the SNOPR. We are** 

### 16 **no longer proposing a standby active high** 

### 17 **test.** 

### 18 **We have added a new test to test** 

### 19 **standby active low mode. So we will be** 

### 20 **discussing that as well.** 

### 21 **We have updated energy efficiency** 

### 22 **metrics that are reported outputs of the test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 procedure. This now includes an output for an**  

### 2 **annual energy consumption metric. So we will** 

### 3 **get into that today. And then finally we have** 

### 4 **provided a sampling plan and rounding** 

### 5 **requirements to report the certified** 

### 6 **representative rating of television. So those** 

### 7 **are all the areas that we have made changes to** 

### 8 **since the NOPR and we will be spending today's** 

### 9 **meeting to go through those in more detail.** 

### 10 **So with that introduction, moving** 

### 11 **right along throughout the day, I will welcome** 

### 12 **Anthony Rotolo to begin our conversation of** 

### 13 **the on-mode with ABC test setup.** 

### 14 **MR. ROTOLO: Thanks, Jeremy. I am** 

### 15 **Anthony Rotolo from Navigant Consulting.** 

### 16 **The first issue that I would like** 

### 17 **to talk today is on the test setup for on-mode** 

### 18 **with ABC enabled by default.** 

### 19 **So in the NOPR, DOE proposed using** 

### 20 **a direct light setup, which consisted of a 100** 

### 21 **watt halogen incandescent lamp positioned in** 

### 22 **front of the TV's ABC sensor, allowing the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 light to be focused directly into the sensor.**  

### 2 **The halogen incandescent lamp also needed to** 

### 3 **be capable of delivering between 10 and 300** 

### 4 **lux measured at the sensor.** 

### 5 **So from there, that is the basis** 

### 6 **for our analysis.** 

### 7 **In the figure on the right, this** 

### 8 **provides a high-level overview of the** 

### 9 **chronological testing process, which DOE** 

### 10 **conducted following the NOPR. Each one of** 

### 11 **these steps represents the analysis which we** 

### 12 **did. So that kind of helped set the stage for** 

### 13 **this overview.** 

### 14 **The first [step] in this research** 

### 15 **was to identify the variables of the test** 

### 16 **setup, which would impact the power** 

### 17 **consumption of the TV. Additional** 

### 18 **specification from this research was used to** 

### 19 **create two distinct test setups which built** 

### 20 **upon the NOPR's specifications.** 

### 21 **Both of these test setups were** 

### 22 **examples of a direct light test setup and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 throughout this discussion we have referred to**  

### 2 **them as the adjacent and the distance test** 

### 3 **setup.** 

### 4 **DOE conducted a round robin** 

### 5 **testing to evaluate the repeatability of each** 

### 6 **of these test setups as well. And then** 

### 7 **following the round robin testing, DOE looked** 

### 8 **into several observations, which led to** 

### 9 **additional evaluation of infrared and ultra** 

### 10 **violet light spectrum testing. These non** 

### 11 **visible light spectrums were determined to be** 

### 12 **possible causes for any differences in power** 

### 13 **consumptions between the two test setups** 

### 14 **observed during testing.** 

### 15 **Following this analysis and the** 

### 16 **cumulative analysis of this ABC testing, DOE** 

### 17 **proposed a new direct light test setup, which** 

### 18 **built upon the specification in the NOPR.** 

### 19 **Additionally, DOE is including figures which** 

### 20 **helped create guidance for lives of** 

### 21 **manufacturers for these test setups.** 

### 22 **So now we would like to go over**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 the analysis which helped specify the distance**  

### 2 **and the adjacent test setup.** 

### 3 **The ABC test setup proposed in the** 

### 4 **SNOPR included many new specifications and,** 

### 5 **therefore, DOE believes that it would be** 

### 6 **beneficial to walk through each of these in** 

### 7 **this phase.** 

### 8 **First, DOE received feedback from** 

### 9 **stakeholders. And although they agreed with a** 

### 10 **proposal of a direct light setup, they** 

### 11 **requested additional specification and** 

### 12 **guidance to help create the [ABC] test setup.** 

### 13 **DOE performed evaluation testing** 

### 14 **of several variables which were involved in** 

### 15 **the ABC test setup. These variables included** 

### 16 **the distance between the lamp and the ABC** 

### 17 **sensor, the angle from the lamp in relation to** 

### 18 **the ABC sensor, the lamp type, and the method** 

### 19 **of varying the illuminance of these.** 

### 20 **During this investigation, DOE** 

### 21 **discovered that all of these variables played** 

### 22 **a significant role in the way that ABC sensors**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 interpret the light and, therefore, impact the**  

### 2 **power consumption.** 

### 3 **And based on this testing, DOE** 

### 4 **believes that these requirements need to be** 

### 5 **specified in order to create a repeatable ABC** 

### 6 **test setup.** 

### 7 **The adjacent and distance setup** 

### 8 **were based on this initial research and DOE** 

### 9 **believes that they provide additional** 

### 10 **specification that improves the repeatability** 

### 11 **of this test setup.** 

### 12 **Both the adjacent and distance** 

### 13 **setup use a 1000 lumen halogen incandescent** 

### 14 **lamp. This lamp was used in place of the 100** 

### 15 **watt halogen incandescent lamp specified by** 

### 16 **the NOPR. The reason for this shift is that** 

### 17 **DOE's energy conservation standard for** 

### 18 **incandescent reflector lamps is currently** 

### 19 **phasing out many 100 watt halogen incandescent** 

### 20 **lamps, which makes it difficult for** 

### 21 **manufacturers and labs to acquire.** 

### 22 **Additionally, DOE believes that a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 specification based on lumens ensures a**  

### 2 **greater repeatability that the lamp produces** 

### 3 **the same light output. Finally, both test** 

### 4 **setups use a regulated voltage source to vary** 

### 5 **the input voltage of the lamp.** 

### 6 **In our initial testing, DOE** 

### 7 **discovered that small fluctuations in the** 

### 8 **input voltage can affect the light output of** 

### 9 **the lamp and, therefore, using a regulated** 

### 10 **voltage source ensures that the illuminance** 

### 11 **values remain constant throughout the entire** 

### 12 **on-mode test.** 

### 13 **Finally, both test setups position** 

### 14 **the lamp perpendicular to the ABC sensor.** 

### 15 **Again, DOE discovered that in their** 

### 16 **investigation, variation in angle of the light** 

### 17 **entering into the ABC sensor impacts the power** 

### 18 **consumption of the TV.** 

### 19 **And from there, these test setups** 

### 20 **begin to deviate. With the adjacent test** 

### 21 **setup that is on the right, it uses a PVC** 

### 22 **reducing pipe to direct the light into the ABC**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 sensor. Attached to the front housing of the**  

### 2 **lamp, this PVC pipe focuses the light into the** 

### 3 **ABC sensor with a two-inch outlet that is** 

### 4 **pressed flush against the TV's ABC sensor in** 

### 5 **front of the bezel of the TV.** 

### 6 **The test setup in the figure on** 

### 7 **the right, referred to as the distance test** 

### 8 **setup, is placed at a fixed distance of five** 

### 9 **feet from the ABC sensor and uses a direct** 

### 10 **light setup to shine light directly into the** 

### 11 **ABC sensor.** 

### 12 **It is important to note that in** 

### 13 **the distance test setup, the TV has to be** 

### 14 **parallel to a vertical reference plane to** 

### 15 **ensure that the light entering the ABC sensor** 

### 16 **is perpendicular to the sensor.** 

### 17 **So after these test setups were** 

### 18 **clearly defined, DOE began a round robin** 

### 19 **testing, which was designed to evaluate the** 

### 20 **repeatability and reproducibility of each of** 

### 21 **these test setups. This testing was conducted** 

### 22 **at four labs using eight different TVs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 Each lab tested the adjacent test**  

### 2 **and distance test setup 3 times at 8 different** 

### 3 **illuminance points, being 0, 10, 12, 35, 50,** 

### 4 **75, 100, and 300 lux. During this testing,** 

### 5 **the IEC dynamic broadcast content was** 

### 6 **displayed for a ten-minute period, while the** 

### 7 **average power consumption was measured and** 

### 8 **recorded over that duration.** 

### 9 **Upon completion of testing and** 

### 10 **data collection, this data was evaluated to** 

### 11 **determine which test setup had greater** 

### 12 **repeatability and reproducibility.** 

### 13 **DOE used a coefficient of** 

### 14 **variation as one of the main metrics to** 

### 15 **perform this analysis. The coefficient of** 

### 16 **variation is a ratio of the standard deviation** 

### 17 **to the average value in a specific data set.** 

### 18 **This calculation measured the relative** 

### 19 **variation in a relative data set.** 

### 20 **Specifically, this was looked at, at specific** 

### 21 **illuminance values.** 

### 22 **The full data set and round robin**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 report can be found at the regulations.gov**  

### 2 **website, if you would like to view it in its** 

### 3 **entirety.** 

### 4 **Here we have our analysis of the** 

### 5 **round robin testing. The figure on the top** 

### 6 **compares the average coefficient of variation** 

### 7 **for each illuminance value by specific test** 

### 8 **setup. The blue bars are the distance setup,** 

### 9 **whereas the green bars are the adjacent test** 

### 10 **setup. And as you can see, in many cases, the** 

### 11 **distance test setup had a lower coefficient of** 

### 12 **variation than the adjacent test setup.** 

### 13 **The table beneath this shows the** 

### 14 **specific values for each illuminance value** 

### 15 **with a direct comparison. The average** 

### 16 **coefficient of variations value was calculated** 

### 17 **over all illuminance values for the distance** 

### 18 **in the adjacent test setup. The distance test** 

### 19 **setup had an average of 2.2 percent variation;** 

### 20 **whereas, the adjacent had a 3.5 percent** 

### 21 **variation.** 

### 22 **Based on this analysis, DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 concluded that distance test setup was more**  

### 2 **repeatable and reproducible than the adjacent** 

### 3 **test setup and, therefore, is proposing to use** 

### 4 **the distance test setup for ABC testing.** 

### 5 **Specifically, DOE is proposing** 

### 6 **that a 1,000 lumen halogen incandescent PAR** 

### 7 **30S shall be used as the lamp for this test** 

### 8 **setup. The light output of this lamp shall be** 

### 9 **a standard spectrum. Standard spectrum is** 

### 10 **defined by EPCA as a lamp which does not have** 

### 11 **a special coating or other features that** 

### 12 **modify the light wavelengths that exit the** 

### 13 **lamp or change a perceived color of the lamp's** 

### 14 **light.** 

### 15 **DOE is also specifying that the** 

### 16 **illuminance values shall be varied using a** 

### 17 **voltage regulated source. The lamp shall be** 

### 18 **placed a fixed distance of five feet from the** 

### 19 **ABC sensor and align perpendicular to the ABC** 

### 20 **sensor. And all four corners of the TV shall** 

### 21 **be aligned equidistant from a vertical** 

### 22 **reference point.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 At this time, DOE would like to**  

### 2 **seek comments from interested parties on these** 

### 3 **specifications of the ABC test setup.** 

### 4 **Specifically, the specification for a 1000** 

### 5 **lumen halogen incandescent APR 30S lamp, the** 

### 6 **fixed distance which the lamp is placed from** 

### 7 **the TV, the alignment of four corners to a** 

### 8 **vertical reference plane and the variation of** 

### 9 **the illuminance values using a regulated** 

### 10 **voltage source.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Who would like to** 

### 12 **start? Jon.** 

### 13 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, this is Jon** 

### 14 **Fairhurst from Sharp Electronics Corporation.** 

### 15 **Let's see. There are a few** 

### 16 **concerns that have come up in this area. None** 

### 17 **of them major concerns. They are more minor** 

### 18 **issues, potentially anyway. So one concern** 

### 19 **from my colleagues in Japan was the** 

### 20 **availability of a PAR 30S-type lamp** 

### 21 **internationally. As I mentioned, I am** 

### 22 **involved in IEC as well, so I am doing my best**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 to make sure that we have harmonized standards**  

### 2 **throughout the world, and much of the testing** 

### 3 **for televisions manufactured from the U.S.** 

### 4 **will be done outside of the U.S.** 

### 5 **My colleagues did not find, at** 

### 6 **least in their searches -- I don't know how** 

### 7 **long they searched, how deeply they searched -** 

### 8 **- but they didn't find that in the Japanese** 

### 9 **market. It is difficult to prove a negative** 

### 10 **so I can't say that there aren't any but care** 

### 11 **should be taken to make sure that whatever** 

### 12 **light is chosen that it is available globally.** 

### 13 **Another concern, this is again an** 

### 14 **international item and it is fairly minor is** 

### 15 **that the distances quoted are in feet and** 

### 16 **inches. In order to harmonize, IEC is** 

### 17 **required to do things in metric values and so** 

### 18 **in my written comments I will propose that** 

### 19 **rather than 2 feet from a nearest surface, it** 

### 20 **would be 1.5 meters -- or excuse me, 0.5** 

### 21 **meters minimum and that instead of 5 feet,** 

### 22 **that it be 1.5 meter plus or minus 0.1 meter.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 I don't believe that would have a material**  

### 2 **effect on the test but it would allow** 

### 3 **international harmonization. I think that is** 

### 4 **a positive thing.** 

### 5 **I see that you have a plus or** 

### 6 **minus 3 degrees, the latest draft within IEC** 

### 7 **is plus or minus 5 degrees but I don't believe** 

### 8 **that it would be difficult to incorporate 3** 

### 9 **degrees into the international test procedure.** 

### 10 **So I will be looking to do that.** 

### 11 **In fact if I put on my industry** 

### 12 **hat, rather than my international hat, one** 

### 13 **thing that industry is concerned about and I** 

### 14 **think that this is a concern that is shared** 

### 15 **within the overall community is that we have a** 

### 16 **very repeatable, robust standard. So** 

### 17 **tightening up to the 3 degrees rather than 5** 

### 18 **is one that doesn't cause difficulty should be** 

### 19 **no problem. But we do want to make sure that** 

### 20 **from lab to lab, from day to day, that we get** 

### 21 **as close to the same as what was possible.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. If you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 look at the comment box, there are four**  

### 2 **specific items there. I hope we can get** 

### 3 **comments, should that be useful, on any or all** 

### 4 **of them.** 

### 5 **Yes, please, Bill.** 

### 6 **MR. SCHINDLER: Hi, this is Bill** 

### 7 **Schindler.** 

### 8 **I agree with nearly everything** 

### 9 **that Jon said. Our colleagues in Japan have** 

### 10 **problems with a PAR 30S availability for point** 

### 11 **number one and their solution was to use the** 

### 12 **same specification as used in ENERGY STAR** 

### 13 **displays version 6.0, which I believe is a 980** 

### 14 **lumen plus or minus 5 percent. So that is** 

### 15 **what they are currently using for ENERGY STAR** 

### 16 **displays. They would like to keep using that.** 

### 17 **However, because of the** 

### 18 **variability of this ABC testing, we certainly** 

### 19 **appreciate the utmost specifications are** 

### 20 **needed for getting repeatability and** 

### 21 **reproducibility. That is our mantra. That is** 

### 22 **what we really, really need.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 So it is conflicted. They want**  

### 2 **repeatability, which would, I think, lend** 

### 3 **itself towards using a PAR 30S but the problem** 

### 4 **is that they can't get PAR 30S or it might be** 

### 5 **available, a hard time to get. So there has** 

### 6 **got to be some solution in the middle there.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy Dommu.** 

### 8 **MR. DOMMU: This is Jeremy. So** 

### 9 **originally, as Anthony went over, we proposed** 

### 10 **the 100 watt halogen incandescent lamp from** 

### 11 **the NOPR, as we discussed. We wanted to** 

### 12 **provide more specification. We also wanted to** 

### 13 **ensure that the incandescent reflect a lamp** 

### 14 **standard, which DOE put into place, that those** 

### 15 **type of lamps will be phased out. So we want** 

### 16 **to make sure that obviously the lamp is** 

### 17 **readily available.** 

### 18 **So the question is, do you have** 

### 19 **any suggestions or potential solutions of a** 

### 20 **lamp that would meet those requirements to** 

### 21 **ensure that repeatability and reproducibility** 

### 22 **is not affected but is available worldwide or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 are you suggesting that we go with the EPA**  

### 2 **definition from the displays test procedure.** 

### 3 **Do we know any way we could be more specific** 

### 4 **to make a lamp available that is available** 

### 5 **everywhere? And is it really that big of a** 

### 6 **concern that this type of lamp is not** 

### 7 **available? Is it possible that people could** 

### 8 **ship them to labs from the United States or** 

### 9 **obtain them in any other way?** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 11 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, this is Jon** 

### 12 **Fairhurst from Sharp.** 

### 13 **I can take an action on the** 

### 14 **various mailing lists within both the CEA** 

### 15 **standardization and IEC standardization** 

### 16 **communities and ask people to look for** 

### 17 **solutions. Being that I think all of us are** 

### 18 **residing in the U.S., we don't necessarily** 

### 19 **have as much experience in what is available** 

### 20 **worldwide but I can hopefully get that** 

### 21 **information, if we could find some** 

### 22 **international standards. And frankly, through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 IEC, there may be some lamp standards that**  

### 2 **would give us something very specific and with** 

### 3 **worldwide availability.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: I'm Charlie** 

### 6 **Stephens. Might I suggest that we ask the** 

### 7 **lamp manufacturers to come up with an idea,** 

### 8 **Phillips, Osram, those folks? I think some of** 

### 9 **them will be sitting in this room next** 

### 10 **Tuesday. So maybe they have some suggestions** 

### 11 **about products that they sell in international** 

### 12 **markets that are equivalent to another. And** 

### 13 **like I said, in less than a week, I think they** 

### 14 **will be sitting here at the table with us. So** 

### 15 **that might be handy.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 17 **Nothing now, Jon, that you know** 

### 18 **of, just to be crystal clear. Yes, nothing** 

### 19 **now. Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. FAIRHURST: However, I will do** 

### 21 **my best to get a result before the comments** 

### 22 **are due, which is in what, April --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 MR. DOMMU: April 26th.**  

### 2 **MR. FAIRHURST: -- 26th.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, so take** 

### 4 **another quick peek at the comment box.** 

### 5 **Distance test, the alignment issue, and** 

### 6 **illuminance values. Any other comments on** 

### 7 **those?** 

### 8 **Jon.** 

### 9 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes. Once again,** 

### 10 **Jon Fairhurst from Sharp. In the IEC draft** 

### 11 **that we have, we do have an additional** 

### 12 **requirement that -- well the unit under test** 

### 13 **can use its integrative stand and it can be on** 

### 14 **a table that the table not protrude beyond the** 

### 15 **edge of the stand because that could be** 

### 16 **potentially a reflective surface. But the** 

### 17 **table itself might fall within two feet or** 

### 18 **half a meter of the IR sensor. So it seemed** 

### 19 **to be a reasonable compromise that there be** 

### 20 **allowance for a table but as long as it can't** 

### 21 **protrude beyond the stand that that would** 

### 22 **minimize any impact of reflection.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**  

### 2 **Additional comments before we move on?** 

### 3 **MR. ROTOLO: So based on the** 

### 4 **initial round robin testing that DOE** 

### 5 **performed, there were some observations made** 

### 6 **in this testing. Specifically, many TVs** 

### 7 **saturated at relatively low illuminance** 

### 8 **values, seen as low as 10 lux. Just to put** 

### 9 **this in perspective, when we say saturate,** 

### 10 **what we are referring to is the power** 

### 11 **consumption which the TV reaches. It reaches** 

### 12 **the max power consumption at a given value and** 

### 13 **that is no longer increasing as you increase** 

### 14 **illuminance values.** 

### 15 **So what that means is at 10 lux** 

### 16 **the TV reached its maximum power consumption** 

### 17 **for this ABC response and increasing from** 

### 18 **there in illuminance values, the TV no longer** 

### 19 **increases in power. We found that this** 

### 20 **[saturation] was relatively low and most** 

### 21 **likely was not typical of what you would see** 

### 22 **under real world conditions. Therefore, DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 investigated this.**  

### 2 **We also noticed that the response** 

### 3 **between the two setups varied as well. So** 

### 4 **further testing was done to look into these.** 

### 5 **As you can see in figure of TV 1** 

### 6 **and TV 5, they show the power consumption** 

### 7 **response curves for both the adjacent and** 

### 8 **distance test setup. The adjacent is the blue** 

### 9 **curve whereas the distance tested up is the** 

### 10 **red curve. For TV 1, you can see that there** 

### 11 **is some variation between the two curves but,** 

### 12 **in comparison to TV 5, they are significantly** 

### 13 **closer in relation. The reason these TVs were** 

### 14 **selected for follow-on testing was because of** 

### 15 **this range. For TV 1, the curves tended to be** 

### 16 **a bit closer together; whereas for TV 5, we** 

### 17 **had a larger range between the response** 

### 18 **curves.** 

### 19 **From there, DOE looked into the** 

### 20 **light spectrum of each test setup and the** 

### 21 **corresponding effects which it had on the** 

### 22 **ABC's sensor. Research into the ABC sensor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 technology showed that many less expensive ABC**  

### 2 **sensors are sensitive to the near infrared** 

### 3 **spectrum and by sensitive we mean that it** 

### 4 **would respond to an increase in power** 

### 5 **consumption similar to visible light.** 

### 6 **The figures below show the test** 

### 7 **setups and that the near infrared spectrum** 

### 8 **produces significantly more intensity than the** 

### 9 **visible light spectrum.** 

### 10 **Further evaluation of the light** 

### 11 **spectrum associated with each test setup** 

### 12 **showed that the adjacent test setup produced a** 

### 13 **significantly higher IR to visible light** 

### 14 **ratio. This was seen especially true at lower** 

### 15 **illuminance values for the adjacent test** 

### 16 **setup. The higher ratio was most likely due** 

### 17 **to the close proximity the lamp is to the ABC** 

### 18 **sensor. At this distance, the lamp is** 

### 19 **required to be dimmed significantly more than** 

### 20 **the distance test setup in order to achieve a** 

### 21 **similar illuminance value. This issue is** 

### 22 **compounded when you measure at lower**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 illuminance values. The lamp has to be**  

### 2 **further dimmed to reach the lower illuminance** 

### 3 **values. The high amount of IR light was** 

### 4 **believed to have caused this early saturation** 

### 5 **at 10 lux for many of these TVs.** 

### 6 **Based on this analysis, DOE** 

### 7 **performed testing using a IR and UV blocking** 

### 8 **filter, which allowed only the visible light** 

### 9 **spectrum to enter the ABC sensor. This** 

### 10 **testing was performed using the distance test** 

### 11 **setup at 8 illuminance values which were 3,** 

### 12 **10, 12, 35, 50, 75, 100 and 300.** 

### 13 **We would just like to note again** 

### 14 **that this testing occurred after the round** 

### 15 **robin testing. And we would also like to note** 

### 16 **the spectrum which the filter allowed to enter** 

### 17 **into the TV's ABC sensor was between 390** 

### 18 **nanometers and 710 nanometers, which is** 

### 19 **typically considered the visible light** 

### 20 **spectrum.** 

### 21 **This figure shows the distance** 

### 22 **test setup which use the IR filter placed over**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 the TV's ABC sensor. And this was the test**  

### 2 **setup that was used in our follow-on testing.** 

### 3 **Based on this testing, these are** 

### 4 **our results for TV 1 and TV 5. The red curve** 

### 5 **shows the power consumption response with the** 

### 6 **distance setup without the IR filter and the** 

### 7 **blue curve shows the response with the IR** 

### 8 **filter. And you can see in both cases, they** 

### 9 **respond to the light a little bit differently.** 

### 10 **And the result is that the TV saturates at a** 

### 11 **higher illuminance value. For TV 5, in order** 

### 12 **to conserve space, we went to the 100** 

### 13 **illuminance value but the blue curve continues** 

### 14 **on to saturate at 300 lux.** 

### 15 **For TV 1, it saturated at 35 lux** 

### 16 **without the IR sensor and shifted to 50 lux** 

### 17 **with the IR filter. And for TV 5, it shifted** 

### 18 **from 75 lux to 300 lux.** 

### 19 **DOE believes that saturation at** 

### 20 **higher illuminance values is more** 

### 21 **representative of real world conditions and,** 

### 22 **therefore, is proposing to use a 67 mm IR/UV**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 blocking filter, which will be placed over the**  

### 2 **TV's ABC sensor in addition to the use of the** 

### 3 **distance test setup.** 

### 4 **At this time, DOE seeks comments** 

### 5 **from interested parties on the proposal of the** 

### 6 **test setup which places the IR/UV blocking** 

### 7 **filter over the ABC test sensor.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 9 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, this is Jon** 

### 10 **Fairhurst of Sharp.** 

### 11 **I guess the first thing I wanted** 

### 12 **to ask about, if I can ask some questions** 

### 13 **first for clarification before we get into the** 

### 14 **discussion of the point, I am interested in** 

### 15 **the pages in the -- let's see it is the** 

### 16 **analysis it shows page 26. It seems that the** 

### 17 **early saturation -- let's see, it is the graph** 

### 18 **previous -- there. It shows the early** 

### 19 **saturation that we experienced that we have** 

### 20 **been so concerned about may have been more due** 

### 21 **to the test procedure which had the close** 

### 22 **proximity and no IR filter as compared to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 maybe how the televisions were acting in the**  

### 2 **real world. So that is possibly an** 

### 3 **interesting discovery that we might have been** 

### 4 **seeing, rather than a design flaw or a design** 

### 5 **issue, a testing issue in the past.** 

### 6 **So I was wondering if you had any** 

### 7 **comment on that.** 

### 8 **MR. ROTOLO: We did some research** 

### 9 **into the ABC sensors themselves. We noticed** 

### 10 **that certain sensors do compensate for the** 

### 11 **fact that they may receive a high amount of** 

### 12 **infrared light. And on these sensors,** 

### 13 **essentially they have a filter which doesn't -** 

### 14 **- it essentially is an analogue output and it** 

### 15 **doesn't relay that into the analogue output.** 

### 16 **But for many of these other** 

### 17 **sensors, as we showed, the test setup produces** 

### 18 **a high amount of the infrared spectrum. And** 

### 19 **it does relate that into what it may think as** 

### 20 **the visible light spectrum.** 

### 21 **MR. FAIRHURST: Very good. And** 

### 22 **this is Jon Fairhurst, still.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 Then with the -- I guess another**  

### 2 **thing that I am wondering about is if the** 

### 3 **difference in the curves do you believe might** 

### 4 **be between adjacent and the distance setup be** 

### 5 **that the distance setup is more of a small** 

### 6 **point source while the adjacent setup is a** 

### 7 **broader angle or more diffuse light source?** 

### 8 **MR. ROTOLO: I guess, based on our** 

### 9 **testing, that is hard to say.** 

### 10 **I do, going back to your first** 

### 11 **question, I do believe that the close** 

### 12 **proximity to the sensor is what did cause the** 

### 13 **saturation because it required the right** 

### 14 **output to be considerably more in the IR** 

### 15 **spectrum than in the visible light spectrum.** 

### 16 **But in terms of looking at more** 

### 17 **diffuse, it is hard to say if that was an** 

### 18 **issue. We do know that because the light was** 

### 19 **further back, it could be operating at more of** 

### 20 **the specified voltage range. So it would be** 

### 21 **producing light which would be closer to the** 

### 22 **visible light rather than the infrared**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 spectrum.**  

### 2 **MR. FAIRHURST: I see. And then** 

### 3 **let's see, finally I am wondering when** 

### 4 **applying the IR filter do we believe that** 

### 5 **this, in a sense, converts the test setup,** 

### 6 **which is synthetic, if you will, if that** 

### 7 **improves the modeling of this setup to look** 

### 8 **more like what we expect in the consumer's** 

### 9 **home. So I know that when you are looking at** 

### 10 **sunlight, the ratio of IR actually goes down.** 

### 11 **There is IR spectrum, of course, but it is a** 

### 12 **bluer, higher temperature light. And that is** 

### 13 **the condition of where we actually want the** 

### 14 **ABC sensors to respond to make the television** 

### 15 **bright, while viewing under bright daylight.** 

### 16 **And then but in the home where at** 

### 17 **night when you are using the typical home** 

### 18 **lighting, I am wondering when inserting the IR** 

### 19 **filter, are we making it look more or less** 

### 20 **like the light that would actually be in the** 

### 21 **home. And of course this will vary, depending** 

### 22 **on if you have incandescent or florescent or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 LEDs. And then with LED lighting I know there**  

### 2 **is a big variety in the spectra from what you** 

### 3 **will see from different models in** 

### 4 **manufacturer's lights.** 

### 5 **So anyway but the question is,** 

### 6 **does the IR filter, do you believe, help make** 

### 7 **the model look more like the home or** 

### 8 **potentially diverge a bit from the home?** 

### 9 **MR. ROTOLO: So I think when** 

### 10 **creating this test setup it was always this** 

### 11 **compromise between what is a real world** 

### 12 **condition and what is a repeatable test setup.** 

### 13 **I think the IR filter allows us to** 

### 14 **reach what we believe is a more representative** 

### 15 **test setup, allowing that like we pointed out** 

### 16 **the filter allowed 390 nanometers to 710** 

### 17 **nanometers, those wavelengths to enter.** 

### 18 **Essentially it was a band pass filter, which** 

### 19 **allowed those wavelengths to enter the ABC** 

### 20 **sensor.** 

### 21 **In terms of the other side of** 

### 22 **those, the ultraviolet spectrum which tends to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 be produced a little bit more by natural**  

### 2 **sunlight and on the other side of that you** 

### 3 **have artificial light, which tends to produce,** 

### 4 **in terms of incandescent, more of the infrared** 

### 5 **spectrum.** 

### 6 **So I think this is a good** 

### 7 **compromise between those two sides of the** 

### 8 **spectrum, while still allowing the visible** 

### 9 **spectrum to enter into the ABC sensor.** 

### 10 **MR. FAIRHURST: And then my final** 

### 11 **question has to do with the specification of** 

### 12 **the IR/UV filter. I was wondering did you do** 

### 13 **any study to find if they varied from** 

### 14 **manufacturer to manufacturer if we needed to** 

### 15 **have some tighter specification than use a** 

### 16 **IR/UV filter because different manufacturers** 

### 17 **might have different cutoff points, different** 

### 18 **losses and so forth.** 

### 19 **MR. ROTOLO: I think this is** 

### 20 **something that we will probably look into a** 

### 21 **little bit. Right now, I don't have a good** 

### 22 **response but I think this is something that we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 would like to look into a little bit.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Very good. Charlie** 

### 3 **Stephens?** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, to follow up** 

### 5 **on Jon's question a little bit and your** 

### 6 **answer, you have got the IR filter downstream,** 

### 7 **essentially, of the illuminance meter. And so** 

### 8 **I am just wondering how much of the** 

### 9 **illuminance is changed -- the level of** 

### 10 **illuminance is changed by the filter, how much** 

### 11 **reduction in illuminance you would get on the** 

### 12 **other side of the filter.** 

### 13 **If you put a second illuminance** 

### 14 **meter on the other side of the filter, what is** 

### 15 **the actual value when you are down at the 12** 

### 16 **lux area, 35 lux area? What percentage have** 

### 17 **you lost when measuring in front of the filter** 

### 18 **instead of downstream?** 

### 19 **MR. ROTOLO: So we actually did** 

### 20 **testing to look into that. Let me bring that** 

### 21 **up. I put it in the background in case such a** 

### 22 **question arose.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 MR. DOMMU: While Anthony is**  

### 2 **pulling this up, this is a document that DOE** 

### 3 **has posted on regulations.gov. It is called** 

### 4 **the IR or the effective infrared and neutral** 

### 5 **density filters on testing. So this is** 

### 6 **currently available on regulations.gov. You** 

### 7 **will find a link to it on the rulemaking** 

### 8 **website.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Jeremy.** 

### 10 **MR. ROTOLO: So we looked into two** 

### 11 **test setups. And actually, this was one of** 

### 12 **the test setups which we looked into for the** 

### 13 **distance.** 

### 14 **This is the first test setup which** 

### 15 **we looked into where, like what you were** 

### 16 **saying, the filter is downstream from the** 

### 17 **illuminance meter. And then we looked into it** 

### 18 **at on the other side of it where we measured** 

### 19 **the illuminance and then placed the filter in** 

### 20 **front of it to see really what the illuminance** 

### 21 **meter was measuring.** 

### 22 **Our thoughts were the illuminance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 meter should be modeled based on visible light**  

### 2 **and should not be affected but we wanted to** 

### 3 **verify. We did this with two TVs. We also** 

### 4 **looked into this with the adjacent test setup** 

### 5 **and we have results, which I will just briefly** 

### 6 **touch on these first. They showed as what we** 

### 7 **would have expected, that the infrared light** 

### 8 **because it was so close was causing the sensor** 

### 9 **to saturate at a lower level, whereas when we** 

### 10 **place the filter in front of it, it caused it** 

### 11 **to saturate at a higher level.** 

### 12 **But going back to the comparison** 

### 13 **between the two distance test setups, we found** 

### 14 **that for the most part, they were measuring** 

### 15 **the same values. We did find some small** 

### 16 **fluctuation in power consumption between the** 

### 17 **two test setups, but we do believe that the** 

### 18 **illuminance meters are designed to see the** 

### 19 **visible light spectrum. So it should be the** 

### 20 **same on either side of the filter.** 

### 21 **I guess in a case where you do see** 

### 22 **small fluctuation, I think it is okay, as long**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 as you specify where the filter is placed. So**  

### 2 **if all testing is conducted with the filter** 

### 3 **placed in front of the sensor, it makes that a** 

### 4 **repeatable setup regardless.** 

### 5 **MR. DOMMU: And one more note on** 

### 6 **that. Keep in mind so the results that** 

### 7 **Anthony showed, I think they are very close to** 

### 8 **one another but the setups were slightly** 

### 9 **different if you go back to the diagram in the** 

### 10 **sense that instead of one, the filter is** 

### 11 **actually placed right in front of the lamp.** 

### 12 **Where in setup two, if you go to the next** 

### 13 **slide, the filter now is right in front of the** 

### 14 **TV. So I don't believe that we actually -- we** 

### 15 **might have done some spot testing, I'm not** 

### 16 **sure if we have the results, where we kept the** 

### 17 **filter and the meter right next to the TV but** 

### 18 **swapped the order. But I think the test** 

### 19 **comparison, which Anthony just showed is at** 

### 20 **least a pretty good proxy that supports our** 

### 21 **belief that the illuminance meter is designed** 

### 22 **in a way that it would only recognize the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 illuminance in the visible light spectrum.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bijit.** 

### 3 **MR. KUNDU: Bijit Kundu with** 

### 4 **Energy Solutions.** 

### 5 **I am curious with this question** 

### 6 **for DOE on the graphs on slide 31 -- it was** 

### 7 **26. I know DOE presents it in terms of** 

### 8 **average power and I understand why. I am just** 

### 9 **curious if DOE also measured the screen** 

### 10 **luminance for throughout the ABC testing.** 

### 11 **And, if so, if that data was available or DOE** 

### 12 **can make a comment on what the data looked** 

### 13 **like for screen luminance.** 

### 14 **MR. ROTOLO: We did not measure** 

### 15 **screen luminance at these values.** 

### 16 **MR. KUNDU: I'm talking about** 

### 17 **slide 26.** 

### 18 **MR. KLINKE: Sorry. This is Kurt** 

### 19 **Klinke from Navigant. And to elaborate a** 

### 20 **little bit more, the reason that we didn't** 

### 21 **measure luminance because it is a dynamic** 

### 22 **content, so the luminance is constantly**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 changing throughout the ten-minute period**  

### 2 **because it is actually a video.** 

### 3 **So, depending on where you are** 

### 4 **point a luminance meter at a certain corner,** 

### 5 **directly in the center, it is going to vary so** 

### 6 **widely across the test that we couldn't really** 

### 7 **give you a value for the luminance over this** 

### 8 **ten-minute period.** 

### 9 **MR. KUNDU: A follow-up question,** 

### 10 **then. I guess when you observed the test, did** 

### 11 **you see this kind of saturation that you see** 

### 12 **in slide 26 in terms of the brightness of the** 

### 13 **screen? Did you see it go jump from one spot** 

### 14 **to another and it stayed there or any** 

### 15 **observations?** 

### 16 **MR. KLINKE: Yes, especially in** 

### 17 **the situations where it went from testing at** 

### 18 **zero and then saturating immediately to one of** 

### 19 **the lower lux. Yes, there was a large jump in** 

### 20 **overall brightness from the screen. So there** 

### 21 **was a general correlation between screen** 

### 22 **brightness and then overall power consumption**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 seen during the test.**  

### 2 **MR. KUNDU: Sorry, one last** 

### 3 **follow-up on this issue.** 

### 4 **So is DOE's assumption then that** 

### 5 **the power consumption that is being shown here** 

### 6 **is directly related to screen luminance?** 

### 7 **MR. ROTOLO: Yes, we believe that** 

### 8 **is the case. We also we do have -- I believe** 

### 9 **we do have some amount of data showing a** 

### 10 **correlation to that effect that at -- you can** 

### 11 **see it in a more gradual response shows it a** 

### 12 **bit better but we do have some data that** 

### 13 **points to that conclusion as well.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bill?** 

### 15 **MR. SCHINDLER: Hi, this is Bill** 

### 16 **Schindler. In general, I would think that an** 

### 17 **IR filter, if it could be specified really** 

### 18 **well in the meters and all that, would be a** 

### 19 **good idea because it would cut out the** 

### 20 **infrared and the UV. And as the lamp voltage** 

### 21 **changes, obviously the ratio of the infrared** 

### 22 **changes, the spectrum changes. So that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 all, in theory a great idea.**  

### 2 **My concern is again in** 

### 3 **repeatability and reproducibility. Two issues** 

### 4 **that we are introducing which may have** 

### 5 **unforeseen consequences. One, as Jon already** 

### 6 **quickly mentioned, the IR band pass's filter** 

### 7 **itself, not only is the cutoff frequency very** 

### 8 **important, the lower frequency to higher** 

### 9 **frequency as you pointed out, the transmission** 

### 10 **of what is actually being passed, and you** 

### 11 **alluded to that, that some of these filters** 

### 12 **might have a 70 percent transmission in that** 

### 13 **band pass. Some might be 50 percent. It** 

### 14 **depends upon the coatings that they are using.** 

### 15 **So it almost like requires that** 

### 16 **either get really tightly specked in terms of** 

### 17 **that transmission as well as the frequency,** 

### 18 **the percentage transmitted in the band pass** 

### 19 **region and how that is done. Otherwise,** 

### 20 **different filters are going to have really** 

### 21 **different results.** 

### 22 **The same thing would be true of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 the illuminance meter. Although your data**  

### 2 **showed your auxiliary report there, the IR/ND** 

### 3 **filter report showed very little difference on** 

### 4 **test setup one and test setup two, whereas one** 

### 5 **had the filter in front of the illuminance** 

### 6 **meter and one didn't, well that Minolta meter** 

### 7 **must not be sensitive to IR. But I am not** 

### 8 **sure that every illuminance meter is that way.** 

### 9 **Do you know why is it not sensitive to IR?** 

### 10 **If it is a silicon detector and we are using** 

### 11 **silicon detectors in the ABC sensor, what is** 

### 12 **the deal here? Do they have IR band pass** 

### 13 **filters over the illuminance meter? Is it** 

### 14 **built-in or is it part of the spec? And** 

### 15 **because I don't know the answer to that, I am** 

### 16 **just saying like wow, we are putting a new** 

### 17 **layer in here which really needs to be** 

### 18 **controlled, not only in terms of the filter** 

### 19 **but in terms of the meter as well. Otherwise,** 

### 20 **we could have real disconnects from labs** 

### 21 **around the world. And I am scared about doing** 

### 22 **that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 The round robin test was great.**  

### 2 **You guys put in a lot of effort. It is really** 

### 3 **great data. And you know with the distance** 

### 4 **setup without the IR filter, it wasn't so bad.** 

### 5 **So maybe if we get too fancy and put more** 

### 6 **stuff into it, unless we have done a lot of** 

### 7 **tests and know that every lab is going to have** 

### 8 **the same IR filter and the same meter, I think** 

### 9 **there is a potential problem there.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 11 **MR. DESROCHES: Just to address** 

### 12 **your comment on the illuminance meter itself.** 

### 13 **The illuminance meter is designed to output** 

### 14 **in lux and by definition lux is weighted** 

### 15 **according to the human response function. So** 

### 16 **even though you may have two different** 

### 17 **illuminance meters from two different** 

### 18 **manufacturers, they use different silicon, but** 

### 19 **they should be doing some sort of internal** 

### 20 **correction to get back to just the human** 

### 21 **response function, which is mostly visible** 

### 22 **light.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 So I think the concern on the**  

### 2 **meter side is that there shouldn't be** 

### 3 **variation from meter to meter based on that** 

### 4 **output definition. I just wanted to address** 

### 5 **that.** 

### 6 **MR. SCHINDLER: That is very** 

### 7 **helpful. If that is the case that they are** 

### 8 **all weighted to a certain frequency response** 

### 9 **which you are saying they are.** 

### 10 **MR. DESROCHES: Yes, if they are** 

### 11 **outputting a value in lux, then it should be** 

### 12 **a standard definition of the weight.** 

### 13 **MR. SCHINDLER: Great. That is** 

### 14 **something I didn't know.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 16 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, this is Jon** 

### 17 **Fairhurst from Sharp.** 

### 18 **I’m wondering if there would be an** 

### 19 **objection to having the test procedure where** 

### 20 **you put the IR sensor -- IR filter in front of** 

### 21 **the lux meter when you calibrate so if there** 

### 22 **is any pass band loss or if the transition**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 bands are slightly different than what the**  

### 2 **meter is seeing, that that could be** 

### 3 **essentially calibrated out so that when the** 

### 4 **meter says it is seeing 12 lux or something,** 

### 5 **then the television is being measured in** 

### 6 **exactly the same condition behind the IR** 

### 7 **filter.** 

### 8 **I am wondering if anyone believes** 

### 9 **that that would harm the measurement.** 

### 10 **MR. ROTOLO: I think that is** 

### 11 **something we could consider.** 

### 12 **MR. FAIRHURST: Because that would** 

### 13 **reduce concerns about you know if there is a** 

### 14 **meter that has an improper weighting or** 

### 15 **something like this.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 17 **MR. DESROCHES: Just one quick** 

### 18 **comment. There was some spot testing that was** 

### 19 **done just above and behind the illuminance** 

### 20 **meter that is not quite the image that was** 

### 21 **shown there. The one reason why the filter is** 

### 22 **placed directly against the television is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 because once you take the illuminance meter**  

### 2 **out, there is now a gap if the meter is in** 

### 3 **front. And so to do the test you either have** 

### 4 **to hold the filter or you have to put the** 

### 5 **filter back up against the TV. So that is why** 

### 6 **the test was chosen, so that the filter was** 

### 7 **directly adjacent, flush against the** 

### 8 **television and the meter is in front of it.** 

### 9 **So that is the reason for that testing.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. These are** 

### 11 **good comments. Charlie?** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: I just have, you** 

### 13 **know I want to echo an earlier comment about** 

### 14 **trying to get some confidence. And I have no** 

### 15 **reason to believe this is not true but I would** 

### 16 **like to make sure to the extent we can that** 

### 17 **whatever setup we use and whatever results** 

### 18 **come out of it somewhat resemble what the** 

### 19 **television is predictive of what the** 

### 20 **television will due in a consumers home. We** 

### 21 **are spending a lot of time and effort to** 

### 22 **understand that, to measure that. And we are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 hoping that the test procedure, however you**  

### 2 **design it, the results come out of it that are** 

### 3 **predictable. So we can use it for power** 

### 4 **planning.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. Okay.** 

### 6 **Have we covered this sufficiently?** 

### 7 **MR. ROTOLO: Yes, I think we have.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: We are moving on.** 

### 9 **MR. ROTOLO: So the next issue I** 

### 10 **would like to discuss is illuminance values.** 

### 11 **So in the NOPR, DOE proposed testing ABC at** 

### 12 **four illuminance values, weighting them** 

### 13 **equally in our output metric. The proposed** 

### 14 **values were 10, 50, 100, and 300 lux.** 

### 15 **So based on feedback which DOE** 

### 16 **received from the NOPR public meeting, and the** 

### 17 **results from the round robin testing, DOE** 

### 18 **wanted to reevaluate the proposed illuminance** 

### 19 **values. And in this reevaluation, they looked** 

### 20 **into a report conducted by CLASP, which** 

### 21 **released a report on the analysis of** 

### 22 **background illuminance levels during**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 television viewing conditions. This report**  

### 2 **indicated that 89 percent of viewership** 

### 3 **occurred between the zero and 100 lux values** 

### 4 **and that viewership rarely occurred at the 300** 

### 5 **lux condition.** 

### 6 **DOE would also like to note that** 

### 7 **CEA has proposed the 3 lux illuminance value** 

### 8 **in their recent version of CEA-2037-A.** 

### 9 **Based on this additional input and** 

### 10 **analysis, DOE is now proposing four new** 

### 11 **illuminance values, which are 3, 12, 35, and** 

### 12 **100. DOE is also retaining its proposal to** 

### 13 **equally weight testing at these points for the** 

### 14 **output metric. And at this time, DOE seeks** 

### 15 **comment from interested parties on this** 

### 16 **proposal.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon, I see you are** 

### 18 **nodding your head.** 

### 19 **MR. FAIRHURST: Right. So anyway** 

### 20 **I guess I can say -- this is Jon Fairhurst --** 

### 21 **that we concur.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 That is helpful to the Department.**  

### 2 **Bijit?** 

### 3 **MR. KUNDU: Bijit Kundu with** 

### 4 **Energy Solutions. Actually we would agree** 

### 5 **with the Department on these, on the level of** 

### 6 **the illuminance values.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 8 **So additional comments before we move on?** 

### 9 **Yes, Bijit.** 

### 10 **MR. KUNDU: I guess I do have** 

### 11 **another follow-up question not related to the** 

### 12 **actual values in terms of the weight of** 

### 13 **proposing to equally weight the values.** 

### 14 **Can the Department comment on why** 

### 15 **they decided to weight the values and,** 

### 16 **instead, just have manufacturers report at** 

### 17 **each of the illuminance values. I understand,** 

### 18 **based on some CEA study and class study that** 

### 19 **these illuminance values are representative of** 

### 20 **the home. However, we do recognize that these** 

### 21 **are relatively limited studies and so I was** 

### 22 **just curious on some of the rationale from the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 Department.**  

### 2 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, this is Jeremy.** 

### 3 **I mean we weight them in order to calculate** 

### 4 **the average power and on-mode when ABC is** 

### 5 **enabled by default, which is one of the** 

### 6 **primary outputs of the test procedure.** 

### 7 **If we just reported them** 

### 8 **individually, I don't think you can** 

### 9 **necessarily make any clear outputs of what the** 

### 10 **average power mode is because of the variation** 

### 11 **in room illuminance or when people are** 

### 12 **watching television.** 

### 13 **We also are proposing the AEC** 

### 14 **metric which uses the P , the power in on-**

**on** 

### 15 **mode when ABC is enabled by default as an** 

### 16 **input into that. So we really need to have** 

### 17 **that on-mode power output, which is the** 

### 18 **weighted average of the on-mode in those four** 

### 19 **illumination points in order to provide the** 

### 20 **outputs of our test procedure that we are** 

### 21 **proposing.** 

### 22 **MR. KUNDU: So then I guess my**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 follow-up question would be then how did you**  

### 2 **decide to weight them equally.** 

### 3 **MR. DOMMU: I know that there have** 

### 4 **been a number of room illumination studies** 

### 5 **that we relied on that showed that in most** 

### 6 **cases that these are illuminance points that** 

### 7 **represent approximately 25 percent of viewing.** 

### 8 **MR. ROTOLO: Also a lot of studies** 

### 9 **indicated that there was heavy viewership that** 

### 10 **occurred at the lower lux values. And these** 

### 11 **points weight heavier because there are more** 

### 12 **of them on the lower end. So that also kind** 

### 13 **of concurs with what we have seen in studies.** 

### 14 **Also another side note. By having** 

### 15 **an output metric of P with all of these**

**on** 

### 16 **illuminance values calculated, it is also** 

### 17 **comparable to a TV that does not have ABC** 

### 18 **enabled by default. So regardless between the** 

### 19 **two cases if your TV doesn't have an ABC** 

### 20 **sensor or if doesn't have it enabled by** 

### 21 **default, you still get a single value for the** 

### 22 **on-mode power.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 MR. KUNDU: Sorry. A little**  

### 2 **clarification on your statement. You** 

### 3 **mentioned something about heavier weighting at** 

### 4 **the lower ends.** 

### 5 **MR. ROTOLO: Because there are 3** 

### 6 **points of 35 lux and beneath it, it kind of** 

### 7 **lends itself to.** 

### 8 **MR. KUNDU: Okay and I guess one** 

### 9 **more last follow-up I think -- I hope.** 

### 10 **Because the output here is a** 

### 11 **weighted average, would another policymaking** 

### 12 **organization be able to weight ABC differently** 

### 13 **once, this test procedure went final?** 

### 14 **MR. DOMMU: I could answer that** 

### 15 **question. So once this becomes a final** 

### 16 **regulatory test procedure, then the** 

### 17 **manufacturers must comply with the test** 

### 18 **procedure when making representations of the** 

### 19 **energy consumption of televisions.** 

### 20 **So as our output of on-mode with** 

### 21 **ABC enabled by default would, therefore, need** 

### 22 **to be used when making that representation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to clarify**  

### 2 **one thing. If you look at slide 36, that** 

### 3 **first bullet in the green box, just make sure** 

### 4 **we are all aware of that. Four equally** 

### 5 **weighted illuminance values. Right? Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. ROTOLO: So as I mentioned in** 

### 7 **the previous slides, CEA is proposing the 3** 

### 8 **lux illuminance value. And based on our** 

### 9 **illuminance points, we are also proposing the** 

### 10 **3 lux illuminance value.** 

### 11 **In CEA-2037, they proposed two** 

### 12 **methods of coming to or arriving at the 3 lux** 

### 13 **value. The first method is a more** 

### 14 **conventional approach, which is measuring this** 

### 15 **value at the ABC sensor.** 

### 16 **The second method uses a neutral** 

### 17 **density filter which uniformly blocks light to** 

### 18 **the ABC sensor. So an example of this in** 

### 19 **practice would be to use a 2 stop neutral** 

### 20 **density filter. These filters block 75** 

### 21 **percent of light.** 

### 22 **So how this would work, you would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 measure 12 lux at your ABC sensor. Then by**  

### 2 **placing your neutral density filter in front** 

### 3 **of the sensor, your resulting value by you TV** 

### 4 **would be 3 lux.** 

### 5 **DOE wishes to harmonize with these** 

### 6 **methods with CEA. And in order to do this,** 

### 7 **DOE has performed testing to verify these test** 

### 8 **methods.** 

### 9 **So this figure shows the more** 

### 10 **conventional approach where the illuminance is** 

### 11 **measured directly at the ABC sensor. And this** 

### 12 **was done at the 3 lux value.** 

### 13 **Now this test setup shows the ND** 

### 14 **filter placed in front of the ABC sensor.** 

### 15 **Prior to this, you would measure 12 lux at** 

### 16 **your ABC sensor, then place your filter in** 

### 17 **front of it.** 

### 18 **So DOE tested both of these test** 

### 19 **setups with three TVs and the resulting values** 

### 20 **were that in two cases we saw that there was** 

### 21 **little to no difference between the test** 

### 22 **setups but in one case we did see a difference**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 of 9.38 percent between the two test setups.**  

### 2 **The most probable reason for this** 

### 3 **difference was due to, we are assuming that,** 

### 4 **infrared light at the lower illuminance value.** 

### 5 **So you can see that in the case where the ND** 

### 6 **filter was used, 12 lux was measured first and** 

### 7 **potentially reduced the amount of infrared** 

### 8 **light to the ABC sensor.** 

### 9 **So in an attempt to normalize** 

### 10 **testing that in either case measuring in front** 

### 11 **of the ABC sensor or using the ND filter,** 

### 12 **testing was repeated using the IR blocking** 

### 13 **filter to determine if our hypothesis was** 

### 14 **correct.** 

### 15 **These results show that the most** 

### 16 **significant differences between the two test** 

### 17 **setups were again with TV 5, but in this case** 

### 18 **we saw only a difference of 0.37 percent** 

### 19 **between the two test methods.** 

### 20 **So based on this testing, DOE** 

### 21 **believes that using either method to arrive at** 

### 22 **the 3 lux illuminance value is sufficient when**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 using the IR UV blocking filter.**  

### 2 **So at this time, DOE requests** 

### 3 **comment on its proposed specification.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 5 **MR. FAIRHURST: This is Jon** 

### 6 **Fairhurst from Sharp. The earlier concerns** 

### 7 **when we were initially proposing a 3 lux** 

### 8 **measurement were that the -- of course some** 

### 9 **were concerned that zero was not** 

### 10 **representative. So they wanted something** 

### 11 **higher. And then as CEA and CLASP testing** 

### 12 **showed, there was significant viewing down at** 

### 13 **these very low lux levels and one of the** 

### 14 **arguments against testing at the low lux** 

### 15 **levels was it was difficult to measure** 

### 16 **repeatability, that the meters had a large** 

### 17 **variation and so forth. And so then the ND** 

### 18 **filter was proposed as a way to gain consensus** 

### 19 **at measuring at the low lux levels.** 

### 20 **So now I am wondering with further** 

### 21 **study is the ND filter solution something we** 

### 22 **see as helpful in that some meters we are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 finding that are maybe unreliable down at the**  

### 2 **low lux levels or is it something that is** 

### 3 **possibly adding more variation.** 

### 4 **I think at the time we didn't have** 

### 5 **as much experience, so the ND filter was, once** 

### 6 **again, suggested as a way to gain consensus** 

### 7 **but with more information we might see that it** 

### 8 **is actually the world is a little simpler than** 

### 9 **we thought.** 

### 10 **So I don't have a position whether** 

### 11 **it should or shouldn't be in there, other than** 

### 12 **wanting to have the best technical results and** 

### 13 **the best repeatability.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. DOMMU: And I would just --** 

### 16 **let me just respond to that quickly. I mean** 

### 17 **our testing shows, as Anthony just discussed** 

### 18 **that power consumption doesn't vary in either** 

### 19 **method. So I mean I think it is certainly a** 

### 20 **reasonable comment to make that maybe we just** 

### 21 **pick one or the other. But I also think that** 

### 22 **as our testing indicated we are allowing the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 choice because, based on what we saw, the**  

### 2 **results were the same.** 

### 3 **MR. FAIRHURST: So I think it** 

### 4 **would be interesting if we could find an** 

### 5 **instance where it is problematic or where we** 

### 6 **get different meters measuring. And really** 

### 7 **maybe that is the analysis that is the most** 

### 8 **important here is with a single meter what you** 

### 9 **found is what the single accurate meter, that** 

### 10 **the ND method is acceptable. And maybe the** 

### 11 **testing that could be done to see if the ND** 

### 12 **filter method continues to be necessary is do** 

### 13 **we find that two different meters are very** 

### 14 **different at the 3 lux level. I don't know if** 

### 15 **that analysis has been done.** 

### 16 **But we don't know that that** 

### 17 **variation doesn't exist.** 

### 18 **MR. DOMMU: Sure. Thanks for the** 

### 19 **comment.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. ROTOLO: So now we --** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Before we move on,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 Bill has a comment.**  

### 2 **MR. SCHINDLER: Hi, this is Bill** 

### 3 **Schindler. Is it allowable to put up that IR** 

### 4 **ND study that you had before? I just I have a** 

### 5 **question about the data that is being** 

### 6 **presented on the IR and ND filter. At page 22** 

### 7 **that shows with and without the ND filter and** 

### 8 **is very clear that there is no effect, at** 

### 9 **least with TV 1 and TV 3.** 

### 10 **And if you just remember the** 

### 11 **number 71.6, which is what it is showing for** 

### 12 **the wattage for TV 1, I assume there is no IR** 

### 13 **filter in this situation.** 

### 14 **Now if we go to page 26, the last** 

### 15 **page, it still shows 71.6 for TV 1 but the IR** 

### 16 **filters are on. So it is like the IR filter** 

### 17 **didn't do anything but in all the other study** 

### 18 **of the IR filter, it does drop the power.** 

### 19 **So I am not sure -- maybe if it --** 

### 20 **I don't know. That is my question.** 

### 21 **MR. ROTOLO: So our impression of** 

### 22 **this is that being at the 0 lux, or relatively**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 close to the 0 lux point, that the impact may**  

### 2 **have been minimal.** 

### 3 **MR. KLINKE: This is Kurt Klinke** 

### 4 **from Navigant Consulting. And just to** 

### 5 **elaborate on what he is saying is we basically** 

### 6 **believe that for that TV that if you are still** 

### 7 **within the below the lowest level at which the** 

### 8 **TV will have an ABC response. So it is going** 

### 9 **to have, each TV is going to have a minimum** 

### 10 **threshold of light that it needs to have in** 

### 11 **order to really kick in any increasing** 

### 12 **brightness or any actual ABC response. And so** 

### 13 **our belief here is that at 3 lux, even without** 

### 14 **an IR filter, that that is not enough light** 

### 15 **for the TV to respond. And so in this case** 

### 16 **when you add and take out the IR filter that** 

### 17 **there is still no difference. You know, when** 

### 18 **you add the IR filter, you are still reducing** 

### 19 **the light even further. So there is still no** 

### 20 **response.** 

### 21 **MR. SCHINDLER: Yes, I understand.** 

### 22 **Great. Thank you. That is kind of like gone**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 into its saturation mode on the other end.**  

### 2 **MR. KLINKE: Yes, that is correct.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, go ahead.** 

### 4 **MR. DESROCHES: Louis Desroches,** 

### 5 **LBL. And one other thing, too, is the TV 1 as** 

### 6 **was shown earlier is one of the televisions** 

### 7 **where if you go back to the distance versus** 

### 8 **adjacent data they were actually relatively** 

### 9 **close to each other, which suggested this TV's** 

### 10 **ABC sensor is actually doing a good job of** 

### 11 **taking out the IR. And so whether or not you** 

### 12 **put an IR filter in front of it, it may not** 

### 13 **make that much of a difference.** 

### 14 **Whereas, if you go to TV 5 which** 

### 15 **did show quite a bit of difference between the** 

### 16 **adjacent and the distance method, suggesting** 

### 17 **that its sensor is quite susceptible to IR,** 

### 18 **there was a difference between the ND filter** 

### 19 **only versus the ND filter and IR filter.** 

### 20 **So that may explain some of the** 

### 21 **numbers that you are seeing as well, in** 

### 22 **addition to what he was saying.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 MR. SCHINDLER: Great, thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. ROTOLO: So now moving on to** 

### 3 **the definitions section.** 

### 4 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, I would just** 

### 5 **comment right now. So we are already well** 

### 6 **ahead of schedule. We weren't scheduled to** 

### 7 **get to the definitions section until 11:45.** 

### 8 **It is now 10:23. So we are about an hour and** 

### 9 **20 minutes ahead of schedule right now.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, so I was going** 

### 11 **to suggest we take a break.** 

### 12 **MR. DOMMU: So take a break and** 

### 13 **then we can get back to it.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: It is, we will say** 

### 15 **10:25. And we will take a 15-minute break,** 

### 16 **which means we will resume at 10:40.** 

### 17 **You must wear this badge visible** 

### 18 **in the building. There are restrooms on both** 

### 19 **ends of the hallway. There is a coffee shop** 

### 20 **down on the ground floor just about underneath** 

### 21 **us. If you get off the elevator and hang a** 

### 22 **left, you will be there.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 Go quickly if you are going to get**  

### 2 **coffee or some other beverage. And we will** 

### 3 **resume here at 10:40. We have got a good** 

### 4 **start on the day, good content we are covering** 

### 5 **here. And we will see you back here then.** 

### 6 **(Whereupon, the foregoing meeting went off the** 

### 7 **record at 10:24 a.m. and went back** 

### 8 **on the record at 10:41 a.m.)** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: So let's resume.** 

### 10 **You didn't get a chance to introduce yourself** 

### 11 **before. Would you do so and use the** 

### 12 **microphone?** 

### 13 **MS. RADULOVIC: Sure. This is** 

### 14 **Verena Radulovic with the U.S. EPA, Project** 

### 15 **Manager for the television specification for** 

### 16 **ENERGY STAR.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Please** 

### 18 **say your first name again.** 

### 19 **MS. RADULOVIC: Verena, V-E-R-E-N** 

### 20 **A and the last name is Radulovic.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 22 **MS. RADULOVIC: Yes, thanks.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: I guess we are**  

### 2 **going to hear first from Jeremy.** 

### 3 **MR. DOMMU: Hi, everyone. This is** 

### 4 **Jeremy again. We are going to jump into a** 

### 5 **little bit more on the test data and** 

### 6 **statistical analysis from the testing we did** 

### 7 **as part of the round robin test report. Prior** 

### 8 **to the meeting there was a couple requests** 

### 9 **from stakeholders to provide the actual raw** 

### 10 **data of power consumption in watts that** 

### 11 **resulted from doing the round robin testing** 

### 12 **and that data is available on regulations.gov.** 

### 13 **If you actually go to the round robin test** 

### 14 **report on the docket, there is now a separate** 

### 15 **attachment that actually has the raw data if** 

### 16 **you are interested in looking at that. But I** 

### 17 **will go over that quickly with you right now.** 

### 18 **So what we did is the slides** 

### 19 **provide the power consumption results and** 

### 20 **statistical analysis round robin testing of** 

### 21 **the distance test setup only. So I want to go** 

### 22 **through some of the -- review the results of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 only the distance because that is one we are**  

### 2 **proposing. We are not going to get into the** 

### 3 **test results of the adjacent method now.** 

### 4 **I will preface it to say that as** 

### 5 **we have heard this morning, the round robin** 

### 6 **testing was not performed using the final** 

### 7 **SNOPR test procedure. There were additional** 

### 8 **specifications incorporated into the SNOPR** 

### 9 **after reviewing the round robin test results** 

### 10 **in order to further improve reproducibility,** 

### 11 **repeatability and are representative of the** 

### 12 **test.** 

### 13 **So I wanted to preface that when** 

### 14 **we do some of this analysis I don't think you** 

### 15 **necessarily could draw conclusions on the** 

### 16 **variation of what our SNOPR is based on simply** 

### 17 **looking at the data from the round robin.** 

### 18 **Particularly, I will note what some of the** 

### 19 **differences are. The round robin testing, as** 

### 20 **Anthony talked about this morning, was not** 

### 21 **conducted at 3 lux. We didn't begin** 

### 22 **considering 3 lux until after we started doing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 the round robin. So that is why we didn't**  

### 2 **actually do the round robin at 3 lux.** 

### 3 **As we discussed, power in on-mode** 

### 4 **with ABC enabled by default in the SNOPR is** 

### 5 **the weighted average of 3, 12, 35 and 100.** 

### 6 **But since the round robin did not test at 3** 

### 7 **lux, for the purposes of what I am going to** 

### 8 **show you, we are calculating P with TVs for**

**on** 

### 9 **ABC enabled by default by taking the weighted** 

### 10 **average of 0, 12, 35, and 100. So we are** 

### 11 **using the zero power measurement instead of** 

### 12 **the 3 lux power measurement to perform this** 

### 13 **calculation. So that is one difference.** 

### 14 **And then obviously as we discussed** 

### 15 **this morning, we are proposing to use an IR/UV** 

### 16 **blocking filter in our test in the SNOPR. We** 

### 17 **did not use an IR/UV blocking filter as part** 

### 18 **of the round robin. As Anthony discussed,** 

### 19 **that came about by looking at the test results** 

### 20 **of the round robin led us to include the** 

### 21 **higher UV blocking filter into the results.** 

### 22 **And then finally, we haven't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 gotten into it but the DOE SNOPR does provide**  

### 2 **a sampling plan, where a minimum of two units** 

### 3 **of a TV basic model must be tested for any** 

### 4 **value used for a representative rating when** 

### 5 **the representative rating is the higher of the** 

### 6 **sample mean in the upper competence limit** 

### 7 **divided by 1.05.** 

### 8 **So we will get into that later and** 

### 9 **welcome comments but what we did for the** 

### 10 **purposes of this presentation of some of this** 

### 11 **data is we calculated -- even though the** 

### 12 **sampling plan requires at least two TV basic** 

### 13 **models to be tested, so you would actually** 

### 14 **take two TVs, two different TVs that were the** 

### 15 **same model and then perform the test** 

### 16 **procedure, for the purposes of this analysis,** 

### 17 **we calculated the rep unit by taking the** 

### 18 **average of the three tests results performed** 

### 19 **on the same TV by the same lab.** 

### 20 **So in the round robin test report,** 

### 21 **you will see these box and whisker plots** 

### 22 **results in one of the appendix. And this just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 shows, again, this is for the distance method,**  

### 2 **that this example is TV 1 where it shows the** 

### 3 **box in the middle -- the line through the box** 

### 4 **in the middle is the median. The top part of** 

### 5 **the box is the 75 percent quartile. The** 

### 6 **bottom part of the box is the 25 percent** 

### 7 **quartile. And then the whiskers represent the** 

### 8 **max and the min.** 

### 9 **So you would see this and it is a** 

### 10 **way to assess the variability of the test** 

### 11 **results from the round robin. And you could -** 

### 12 **- I am not going to go through every TV now.** 

### 13 **They are all on these slides but they are also** 

### 14 **available on the round robin test report.** 

### 15 **Now I know this might be a little** 

### 16 **bit hard for people to see but this is the** 

### 17 **actual raw data and all of this is available** 

### 18 **on regulations.gov. So as Anthony explained,** 

### 19 **there were four different labs who performed** 

### 20 **the test procedure three times each at eight** 

### 21 **different illumination points using both test** 

### 22 **methods. Obviously, we are just focusing here**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 on the distance test method. So you could**  

### 2 **actually see what the raw results of the round** 

### 3 **robin testing are. It is all up here in this** 

### 4 **top left part of this table.** 

### 5 **And then on the bottom part, for** 

### 6 **each of those lux levels of 0, 10, 12, 35, 50,** 

### 7 **75, 100, 300, we calculated of the 12 that** 

### 8 **were reported the median, the mean, the** 

### 9 **standard deviation, the coefficient of** 

### 10 **variation, the max value, the min value, the** 

### 11 **percent difference between min and max.** 

### 12 **So you will see that here. And** 

### 13 **you could look at this to kind of assess the** 

### 14 **variability that we observed in the round** 

### 15 **robin testing.** 

### 16 **What I also did as I kind of** 

### 17 **explained earlier, this P , so this is the**

**on** 

### 18 **weighted average of 0, 12, 35, and 100 for** 

### 19 **each lab. So you could see this testing** 

### 20 **result well.** 

### 21 **So then, as I explained, we took** 

### 22 **the mean of Pon from each lab. So like for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 lab A, test 1, 2, 3 with a mean of Pon, the**  

### 2 **upper competence limit, then the** 

### 3 **representative rating would be the higher of** 

### 4 **the mean and the upper competence limit. So** 

### 5 **we calculated those well.** 

### 6 **And I think really the key values** 

### 7 **to look at on this analysis are right down** 

### 8 **here on the bottom right, where if you use the** 

### 9 **12 calculations of power in on-mode, you could** 

### 10 **see that the median we 127.74, the mean was** 

### 11 **129.43. So standard deviation is 4.23. So** 

### 12 **the coefficient of variation, which is a good** 

### 13 **way to assess it, was 3.27 percent. That is** 

### 14 **the standard deviation of 4.23 divided by the** 

### 15 **mean of 129.43. The max value was 137 for** 

### 16 **this TV and the min value was 124. And so** 

### 17 **then you could see the percent difference** 

### 18 **between min and max.** 

### 19 **And then we basically did the same** 

### 20 **thing using the representative rating of power** 

### 21 **consumption. So all of this is available on** 

### 22 **the docket.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 Then we go through and it is the**  

### 2 **same thing for each TV. We have the distance** 

### 3 **method, the whisker, the box and whisker, and** 

### 4 **the raw data on statistical analysis as I just** 

### 5 **walked through.** 

### 6 **So you could review -- I don't** 

### 7 **think it really makes sense to try to focus on** 

### 8 **all of this right now. But I will bring up** 

### 9 **this final slide, which is kind of the summary** 

### 10 **statistical analysis.** 

### 11 **So on the top up here, this is the** 

### 12 **mean, medium, standard deviation, coefficient** 

### 13 **of variation, max, min, and percent difference** 

### 14 **for the power in on-mode. So of the 12 power** 

### 15 **in on-mode calculations of the 12 tests, 3 by** 

### 16 **each of the 4 different labs, you could see** 

### 17 **the statistics. And then the bottom part here** 

### 18 **is essentially the same thing but instead of** 

### 19 **using the 12 different results, we just use** 

### 20 **the 4 different records and ratings.** 

### 21 **So I think looking at the** 

### 22 **coefficient of variation for Pon, it ranged**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 anywhere for the distance method from 1**  

### 2 **percent to 3.27 percent. The representative** 

### 3 **rating ranged from a coefficient of variation** 

### 4 **of 0.9 to 3.3, 3.31 and then the percent** 

### 5 **differences between min and max values for Pon** 

### 6 **were from 3 to 9, approximately, percent and** 

### 7 **the min max differences for the rep rating** 

### 8 **were lower, ranging from 1.74 percent to the** 

### 9 **highest one of 6.95 percent.** 

### 10 **So that is available if you want** 

### 11 **to look at it. I think it does show that** 

### 12 **there is very limited variability in the round** 

### 13 **robin testing. Again, to preface this, this** 

### 14 **was not conducted using the IR/UV blocking** 

### 15 **filter; as we discussed, that should reduce** 

### 16 **variability even more.** 

### 17 **Any questions on this before we** 

### 18 **move forward?** 

### 19 **Okay. Well then with that, we** 

### 20 **will move back into the definitions section of** 

### 21 **the public meeting.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: That was helpful.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 That was good, yes.**  

### 2 **Okay, back to Anthony.** 

### 3 **MR. ROTOLO: Okay, so to summarize** 

### 4 **the proposals for a definitions section, we** 

### 5 **have updated several definitions. We first** 

### 6 **would like to start by just going over a high** 

### 7 **level of all these updates.** 

### 8 **For the definition for a** 

### 9 **television set, this was updated from the NOPR** 

### 10 **to help clarify the scope. Some stakeholders** 

### 11 **expressed some confusion around language of** 

### 12 **“manufactured with”. This has been updated to** 

### 13 **provide clarification. And we will discuss** 

### 14 **this in greater detail in this section.** 

### 15 **Definitions for special functions** 

### 16 **and additional functions, these definitions** 

### 17 **have been incorporated by reference in today's** 

### 18 **SNOPR. In the NOPR, there was a definition** 

### 19 **for additional functions but to harmonize with** 

### 20 **IEC 62087, this definition has been** 

### 21 **incorporated by reference. Special functions** 

### 22 **has been added as a new definition.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 For dark room conditions, we have**  

### 2 **added additional clarification. There were** 

### 3 **comments that in the NOPR, the requirement** 

### 4 **surrounding this may be insufficient. So we** 

### 5 **performed testing which evaluated our** 

### 6 **specifications and we determined that it [dark** 

### 7 **room conditions] had a sufficient tolerance.** 

### 8 **One statement that I believe Jon made was that** 

### 9 **the desk which the TV would sit on had to be -** 

### 10 **- couldn't protrude out so that any possible** 

### 11 **reflection would be interpreted by the ABC** 

### 12 **sensor.** 

### 13 **In our testing we saw a similar** 

### 14 **situation which we wanted to specify that the** 

### 15 **ABC sensor needed to be at least two feet away** 

### 16 **from any room surface. And by that we meant** 

### 17 **you can't place a TV in a corner of room where** 

### 18 **the ABC sensor is possibly susceptible to any** 

### 19 **reflection of wall surfaces. So our** 

### 20 **clarification to dark room is that it must be** 

### 21 **at least two feet away from any room surface.** 

### 22 **Input connections, we have added**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 definitions for this just to harmonize with**  

### 2 **other rulemakings. And we have used industry** 

### 3 **standards to create those definitions.** 

### 4 **And then finally preset, brightest** 

### 5 **selectable and default picture setting, all of** 

### 6 **these we have added definitions for all of** 

### 7 **these and we will discuss those in greater** 

### 8 **detail in this section as well.** 

### 9 **And so the reason those, in** 

### 10 **addition to television sets are highlighted,** 

### 11 **is because we are only discussing those** 

### 12 **updates. Special functions, additional** 

### 13 **functions, dark room and input connections** 

### 14 **will not be discussed but we are open to any** 

### 15 **discussion if anyone would like to comment on** 

### 16 **those. We can talk about those later or if** 

### 17 **someone would like to comment now.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 19 **MR. FAIRHURST: Regarding the** 

### 20 **details of the television set definition,** 

### 21 **there are -- well I guess before I get into** 

### 22 **that, let me mention that in IEC and CEA when**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 we make definitions, we have a little bit of a**  

### 2 **different philosophy. And in fact in IEC** 

### 3 **there are directives that make the definitions** 

### 4 **very simple. So there may not be a one-to-one** 

### 5 **correspondence between what DOE does and what** 

### 6 **IEC does. But for instance in IEC we are not** 

### 7 **allowed to have a verb. There is no period at** 

### 8 **the end, no shall statements. So we have** 

### 9 **minimized the normative effect of the** 

### 10 **definitions. So the definitions are really** 

### 11 **just for clarification and understanding.** 

### 12 **So for instance for the DOE** 

### 13 **specification of a television set, it is 15** 

### 14 **inches or larger. Well, that is not actually** 

### 15 **true. You can have a TV that is smaller than** 

### 16 **15 inches but it is acceptable that the DOE's** 

### 17 **scope for televisions is 15 inches and larger.** 

### 18 **So IEC would tend to do things** 

### 19 **differently where we would say in the scope** 

### 20 **statement it would have to be 15 inches or** 

### 21 **larger. DOE has done things a little bit** 

### 22 **differently in saying the scope as it covers**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 televisions, and then it defines televisions**  

### 2 **maybe more tightly than televisions are known** 

### 3 **to be. That is mainly the style difference.** 

### 4 **And so that is an expected difference that we** 

### 5 **might have just because of style.** 

### 6 **For the content, I think the 15-** 

### 7 **inch or larger scope is just fine. I think** 

### 8 **that tends to eliminate things like tablets** 

### 9 **and things like that. So that seems very** 

### 10 **reasonable to do.** 

### 11 **There is one area that has been** 

### 12 **put into the recent IEC draft that might be of** 

### 13 **interest to DOE having to do with batteries.** 

### 14 **So we have defined in the latest draft** 

### 15 **auxiliary batteries, which are batteries that** 

### 16 **would maintain let's say a clock or allow the** 

### 17 **IR to be detected or something like this.** 

### 18 **From a main battery, a main battery would** 

### 19 **actually power the television for its normal** 

### 20 **use to make sound and picture.** 

### 21 **And so what we have done in our** 

### 22 **scope we said that you can measure the power**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 of a TV with a main battery but it must be**  

### 2 **removable and it must be removed during the** 

### 3 **test. You don't have to remove auxiliary** 

### 4 **batteries. Clearly, we wouldn't want to do** 

### 5 **that.** 

### 6 **The reason is that once we have a** 

### 7 **main battery in the television set, you don't** 

### 8 **know if the power or the TV is coming from the** 

### 9 **main battery. If you are charging the main** 

### 10 **battery, it is not really determinable.** 

### 11 **So for the IEC scope we said if** 

### 12 **you can't remove the main battery, then it is** 

### 13 **out of scope. And if you can remove the main** 

### 14 **battery, then do so when you do the test, so** 

### 15 **that we eliminate this charging/discharging** 

### 16 **variability.** 

### 17 **We discussed in the IEC meeting** 

### 18 **about are there ways to test televisions with** 

### 19 **main batteries and we decided it was just too** 

### 20 **complex. So we decided to punt.** 

### 21 **Anyway, that concludes my** 

### 22 **discussion on definitions, including the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 television set definition.**  

### 2 **MR. DOMMU: That was very helpful.** 

### 3 **Thanks.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, go ahead.** 

### 5 **MR. ROTOLO: So I will just go** 

### 6 **into a bit more detail on our proposed update** 

### 7 **for the definition for televisions.** 

### 8 **So in the NOPR, DOE proposed that** 

### 9 **a television is a product that is manufactured** 

### 10 **with a TV tuner, in addition to being** 

### 11 **primarily powered by mains, having a diagonal** 

### 12 **screen size of 15 inches or greater.** 

### 13 **And so this specific portion is** 

### 14 **what some stakeholders expressed some** 

### 15 **confusion surrounding. In the SNOPR today we** 

### 16 **are proposing to remove that section and that** 

### 17 **a TV is defined as a product which contains an** 

### 18 **internal TV tuner encased in a single housing** 

### 19 **of the unit. So the reason for this language** 

### 20 **in the NOPR was that it was designed to cover** 

### 21 **products which had an internal or external TV** 

### 22 **tuner. In the SNOPR we are now only including**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 products which have a TV tuner internal to the**  

### 2 **product.** 

### 3 **So at this time, we would like to** 

### 4 **seek comment from interested parties on this** 

### 5 **updated definition of television set.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bijit.** 

### 7 **MR. KUNDU: A question for the** 

### 8 **Department. Is the Department aware of TVs** 

### 9 **that might be shipped or TVs that are marketed** 

### 10 **-- or units that are marketed as TVs that do** 

### 11 **not contain a tuner?** 

### 12 **MR. ROTOLO: So this kind of went** 

### 13 **into the background of our original** 

### 14 **definition. At the time of the proposed** 

### 15 **definition, we were not aware of a television** 

### 16 **or a product marketed as a television which** 

### 17 **included a separate external tuner. I think** 

### 18 **the reason for this incorporation was we were** 

### 19 **aware of the product itself, which was an** 

### 20 **external tuner. It offered the possibility of** 

### 21 **this, although we never specifically saw this.** 

### 22 **It also brings up the issue of, at what point**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 is it considered to be manufactured.**  

### 2 **In the NOPR, we referenced, I** 

### 3 **believe it was a definition by EPCA which** 

### 4 **defines the term manufactured. So you could** 

### 5 **have a retailer which receives a product that** 

### 6 **does not have a TV tuner but has an external** 

### 7 **TV tuner. When they bundle the two, are they** 

### 8 **now the manufacturer? This was part of the** 

### 9 **confusion that some stakeholders had in the** 

### 10 **NOPR.** 

### 11 **And just to clarify, for the** 

### 12 **SNOPR, we were not aware of such a product.** 

### 13 **And, therefore, this led us to remove this** 

### 14 **from the definition. So now they [TV tuners]** 

### 15 **are only encased in a single housing in this** 

### 16 **product.** 

### 17 **MR. KUNDU: Thanks but just to be** 

### 18 **clear, I guess not only a unit that is shipped** 

### 19 **with an external tuner but just a unit that** 

### 20 **doesn't come with any tuner either, internal** 

### 21 **or external, that could be connected to a set** 

### 22 **top box that does have a tuner. I'm just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 curious if the Department knows of products**  

### 2 **like that.** 

### 3 **MR. DOMMU: This is Jeremy. You** 

### 4 **are getting into the distinguishment between a** 

### 5 **display and a television at that point, I feel** 

### 6 **like.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bill.** 

### 8 **MR. SCHINDLER: This is Bill** 

### 9 **Schindler. Didn't the FCC, when we were** 

### 10 **converting to HD back 8 years ago or whenever** 

### 11 **it was, didn't they say that any TV bigger** 

### 12 **than 21 inches or something sold in America** 

### 13 **had to have a tuner?** 

### 14 **MR. DOMMU: I believe that as** 

### 15 **well.** 

### 16 **MR. SCHINDLER: In order to be** 

### 17 **called a TV, it had to have a tuner. You** 

### 18 **know, it was a long time ago but I think that** 

### 19 **is true.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: I see Louis is** 

### 21 **ready.** 

### 22 **MR. DESROCHES: Yes, Louis. Yes,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 there is an All Channel Receiver Act which**  

### 2 **specifies that so if it is sold, if it is** 

### 3 **marketed as a television, it has to have a** 

### 4 **tuner in it.** 

### 5 **MR. SCHINDLER: Yes, I think we** 

### 6 **are covered okay, then.** 

### 7 **MR. DESROCHES: Yes, which is** 

### 8 **another reason why we went back to that** 

### 9 **definition.** 

### 10 **MR. SCHINDLER: But I think it had** 

### 11 **to be above a certain size, too, if I remember** 

### 12 **correctly.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 14 **Jon.** 

### 15 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, this is Jon** 

### 16 **Fairhurst from Sharp. Yes, that is the FCC** 

### 17 **Tuner Mandate if you want to do a search on** 

### 18 **the web, that should be able to find it.** 

### 19 **In addition in the early days** 

### 20 **tuners were not integrated into chips. They** 

### 21 **could be relatively expensive. So Sharp** 

### 22 **manufactured some TVs with an external box**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 early on. The market had some TV monitor**  

### 2 **products. These tended to cause confusion for** 

### 3 **consumers. And since then, we have had the** 

### 4 **FCC mandate.** 

### 5 **Today the tuner components tend to** 

### 6 **highly integrated into chips that are** 

### 7 **available in the marketplace. And so between** 

### 8 **eliminating confusion for the consumer, the** 

### 9 **FCC Act and then also the available chip sets,** 

### 10 **I think it is unlikely.** 

### 11 **However, some number of years in** 

### 12 **the future, there is talk about ultra-high** 

### 13 **definition. So of course this is not going to** 

### 14 **happen within the next three to five years but** 

### 15 **could happen later. That may introduce new** 

### 16 **market dynamics but DOE will have time to** 

### 17 **respond to that.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: And that wouldn't** 

### 19 **be an internal tuner?** 

### 20 **MR. FAIRHURST: It would be --** 

### 21 **there would be some new rules. This would not** 

### 22 **be an ATSC tuner. This would be some new ATSC**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 --**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: I am trying to** 

### 3 **elicit comments on the salience of this** 

### 4 **particular -- these words here.** 

### 5 **MR. FAIRHURST: So there is no** 

### 6 **problem with the salience of these words.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 8 **Yes, Bill, please.** 

### 9 **MR. SCHINDLER: I have a problem** 

### 10 **of the salience of one word.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good.** 

### 12 **MR. SCHINDLER: It is the word** 

### 13 **primarily. I would say that should be only by** 

### 14 **mains power for providing sound and picture.** 

### 15 **And that would take off the table any battery** 

### 16 **operated devices, which I think is the** 

### 17 **intention of this ruling is to be primarily** 

### 18 **mains power. I would just say only by mains** 

### 19 **power for providing sound and picture. That** 

### 20 **allows you to have a small auxiliary battery** 

### 21 **to keep alive whatever status functions you** 

### 22 **need but not for providing your sound and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 picture.**  

### 2 **Because otherwise, you have to get** 

### 3 **into, like Jon was saying, how do you test** 

### 4 **with the battery? Is it fully charged or does** 

### 5 **it have to come out? And that is just** 

### 6 **muddying the waters, I think.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Other** 

### 8 **comments here before we move on?** 

### 9 **Bijit.** 

### 10 **MR. KUNDU: Well I am curious.** 

### 11 **This may be a question more for Jon Fairhurst** 

### 12 **regarding the CEA-2037 document. It notes a** 

### 13 **tuner/receiver. And I am just curious what** 

### 14 **the differences are because it looks like the** 

### 15 **DOE test procedure just has tuner.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 17 **MR. FAIRHURST: There is no** 

### 18 **fundamental difference. In CEA we assume that** 

### 19 **a receiver is an ATSC receiver, which would** 

### 20 **mean that it is a television with a tuner.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 22 **So we are moving on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 MR. ROTOLO: So now we would like**  

### 2 **discuss the updates to the picture setting** 

### 3 **definitions.** 

### 4 **In the NOPR, DOE proposed testing** 

### 5 **luminance in the home and retail picture** 

### 6 **setting. So first we have to define these** 

### 7 **terms. The home picture setting is defined in** 

### 8 **the NOPR as a picture setting recommended by** 

### 9 **the manufacturer from the forced menu or as** 

### 10 **the as shipped picture setting. The retail** 

### 11 **picture setting was defined as the picture** 

### 12 **setting in which it produced the highest** 

### 13 **screen luminance.** 

### 14 **There was some confusion which** 

### 15 **arose with retail picture setting, many** 

### 16 **stakeholders commented that the retail picture** 

### 17 **setting isn't in all cases the brightest** 

### 18 **picture setting. This is slightly where the** 

### 19 **distinction is between our intention, which** 

### 20 **can be seen in the figure below that you would** 

### 21 **select either the home picture setting or** 

### 22 **retail picture setting from the forced menu**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 and the definition itself for retail picture**  

### 2 **setting which was commented that is not always** 

### 3 **the picture setting with the highest** 

### 4 **luminance.** 

### 5 **So based on these comments, DOE** 

### 6 **proposed defining the preset picture setting** 

### 7 **as a means of helping to clarify the other** 

### 8 **picture settings. DOE defines preset pictures** 

### 9 **setting as the picture setting which is** 

### 10 **preprogrammed by the manufacturer, can be** 

### 11 **found within the home menu from the initial** 

### 12 **forced menu, and has predetermined parameters,** 

### 13 **such as brightness, contrast, color, and** 

### 14 **sharpness.** 

### 15 **So this figure shows an example of** 

### 16 **what some possible preset picture settings** 

### 17 **would be and how they were found within the TV** 

### 18 **setting structures.** 

### 19 **Based on the addition of a** 

### 20 **definition for preset picture setting, DOE is** 

### 21 **proposing to remove the definition for retail** 

### 22 **picture setting and add the definition for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 brightest selectable preset picture setting.**  

### 2 **The proposed definition is a** 

### 3 **picture setting which can be found within the** 

### 4 **home menu and produces the highest luminance.** 

### 5 **So from there, the definition for** 

### 6 **home picture setting was also reevaluated.** 

### 7 **DOE is proposing to remove the definition for** 

### 8 **home picture setting and add the definition** 

### 9 **for default picture setting, which is proposed** 

### 10 **as the picture setting which can be found** 

### 11 **within the home menu, is entered into** 

### 12 **immediately following the home menu selection** 

### 13 **and if a forced menu is not available, the** 

### 14 **default picture setting is the picture setting** 

### 15 **which the TV enters into as shipped.** 

### 16 **This figure shows the proposed** 

### 17 **picture setting structure in the SNOPR. Both** 

### 18 **the default picture setting and the brightest** 

### 19 **selectable preset picture setting are found** 

### 20 **within the home menu and it can also be seen** 

### 21 **that the retail menu is not tested in this** 

### 22 **test procedure.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 So at this time, DOE requests**  

### 2 **comments on the addition or the new** 

### 3 **definitions for preset picture setting,** 

### 4 **brightest selectable preset picture setting,** 

### 5 **and default picture setting.** 

### 6 **DOE also requests comments on the** 

### 7 **removal of the home and retail picture** 

### 8 **setting.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Verena.** 

### 10 **MS. RADULOVIC: Hi, this is Verena** 

### 11 **Radulovic from EPA. And thanks, guys. This** 

### 12 **is very helpful.** 

### 13 **And looking at it from the** 

### 14 **perspective of the ENERGY STAR program and how** 

### 15 **we address these kinds of definitions, I do** 

### 16 **think it is very helpful to have this kind of** 

### 17 **a tree or a breakdown. And one of the things** 

### 18 **that I think is really valuable is this idea** 

### 19 **of the preset picture settings. It is** 

### 20 **something that we encountered in our** 

### 21 **development of version 6.0.** 

### 22 **The only thing I would add, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 think, is when you are not testing the retail**  

### 2 **picture setting, it might be helpful to have** 

### 3 **that definition in there anyway or at the very** 

### 4 **least from our programmatic perspective, it is** 

### 5 **helpful, even though it is not tested, the way** 

### 6 **that people come to or sort of when we -- we** 

### 7 **acknowledge that in the case of when retailers** 

### 8 **do want to showcase their products in stores,** 

### 9 **they will have it in a setting that it is just** 

### 10 **helpful to know what that is. So it might be** 

### 11 **good to have just that definition there, even** 

### 12 **though it is not tested. And we found that in** 

### 13 **some cases the retail setting is the same as** 

### 14 **the brightest pre-selectable but not always.** 

### 15 **So I appreciate the way that it is** 

### 16 **laid out here and I do think -- the only** 

### 17 **comment that I have would be maybe to have an** 

### 18 **additional definition parked so that people** 

### 19 **can understand what it is in retail but that** 

### 20 **it can be but it is not necessarily the** 

### 21 **brightest selectable preset. And again, I** 

### 22 **think it is helpful when we look within the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 home, I don't know if I want to call it**  

### 2 **picture setting, it is not quite a mode, sort** 

### 3 **of home -- what would you say -- home** 

### 4 **settings, within that there is the default** 

### 5 **preset which is in the case of energy star** 

### 6 **what we would call the home picture setting.** 

### 7 **In previous versions, before you had things** 

### 8 **like vivid or sports or cinema or things like** 

### 9 **that.** 

### 10 **So it is just adding a layer of** 

### 11 **complexity but I appreciate what DOE has** 

### 12 **proposed.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jon?** 

### 14 **MR. FAIRHURST: This is Jon** 

### 15 **Fairhurst of Sharp.** 

### 16 **I have some real concerns about** 

### 17 **this in terms of measuring the brightness in** 

### 18 **the brightest home setting, rather than in the** 

### 19 **retail mode.** 

### 20 **So as I mentioned, I chair a group** 

### 21 **in the IEC so I am concerned about keeping** 

### 22 **things internationally harmonized and this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 would be at odds with what we are doing**  

### 2 **internationally.** 

### 3 **There are also some unintended** 

### 4 **consequences in that this doesn't really meet** 

### 5 **the initial goal of why we are measuring** 

### 6 **brightness in the first place. So the** 

### 7 **original goal, as I understand it, and Verena** 

### 8 **can correct me if I am not right on, not spot** 

### 9 **on, but the goal was that when the consumer** 

### 10 **sees the television at retail, they will** 

### 11 **perceive a certain brightness and then they** 

### 12 **will take that television home and the reason** 

### 13 **that we measured retail and the home default** 

### 14 **brightness and made a 65 percent maximum ratio** 

### 15 **between the two was to ensure that the** 

### 16 **consumer didn't get home and find a very** 

### 17 **different experience and then be disappointed** 

### 18 **with the brightness, turn the brightness up,** 

### 19 **and then have a different power rating in** 

### 20 **their house than is on the label.** 

### 21 **So that is my understanding of why** 

### 22 **this was done in the first place.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 Now industry actually opposed this**  

### 2 **requirement. Industry said well we want to** 

### 3 **make sure that yes we do want to have people** 

### 4 **have reasonably bright televisions in the home** 

### 5 **that we believe is happening today. If your** 

### 6 **television isn't bright, you will get a black** 

### 7 **eye and the market feedback will kind of fix** 

### 8 **things and also there are difficulties in** 

### 9 **measured brightness versus perceived** 

### 10 **brightness.** 

### 11 **But what I see here is the** 

### 12 **possibility for some unintended consequences.** 

### 13 **So for instance, this is kind of a worst case** 

### 14 **situation, I don't know that any manufacturer** 

### 15 **would do this but this would be a potential.** 

### 16 **A manufacturer makes a 1,000 nits television.** 

### 17 **At retail it is 1,000 nits. It is just** 

### 18 **screaming. It is the brightest TV on the** 

### 19 **wall.** 

### 20 **Someone purchases this television,** 

### 21 **brings it home, plugs it in, and they get 65** 

### 22 **nits and that is how the power is measured.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 So it is very power efficient but it is --**  

### 2 **MS. RADULOVIC: Was that 650 or** 

### 3 **65?** 

### 4 **MR. FAIRHURST: Sixty-five. So it** 

### 5 **is extremely dim. I am not going to say** 

### 6 **whether or not this is too dim but much, much** 

### 7 **dimmer than what they experienced at retail.** 

### 8 **And then they say well this isn't what I saw** 

### 9 **at the store and they flip through the presets** 

### 10 **in home mode and they get now the highest** 

### 11 **allowable preset in home mode because of the** 

### 12 **65 percent requirement would be 100 nits. So** 

### 13 **it is 1,000 nits at retail, 100 nits at the** 

### 14 **highest at home and 65 nits is out of the box** 

### 15 **at home. So that would be a very odd thing.** 

### 16 **And the other thing is the manufacturer would** 

### 17 **say on the specification 1,000 nits. This TV** 

### 18 **is capable of 1,000 nits. Of course, not at** 

### 19 **home mode, only at retail mode.** 

### 20 **MS. RADULOVIC: But it would** 

### 21 **still, but in the case of ENERGY STAR, it** 

### 22 **would still have to --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Verena.**  

### 2 **MS. RADULOVIC: Sorry. This is** 

### 3 **Verena Radulovic. In the case of ENERGY STAR,** 

### 4 **if it is 1,000 nits for the retail, it would** 

### 5 **have to be 65 percent of that, so it would** 

### 6 **still be pretty bright.** 

### 7 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, that is** 

### 8 **right. And this depends on if EPA then makes** 

### 9 **the ratio between not what they are doing here** 

### 10 **between home mode and retail but DOE is saying** 

### 11 **don't measure retail, measure the brightest in** 

### 12 **home model.** 

### 13 **MS. RADULOVIC: Oh, okay.** 

### 14 **MR. FAIRHURST: So there is this** 

### 15 **disconnect between the intent and what EPA is** 

### 16 **doing and what DOE is recommending to actually** 

### 17 **test.** 

### 18 **I do see a --** 

### 19 **MS. RADULOVIC: Sorry. The only** 

### 20 **time where that wouldn't be an issue is when** 

### 21 **it is currently retail and then brightest** 

### 22 **selectable preset picture is synonymous if it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 is the same. Whereas, here I think what Jon**  

### 2 **is saying is that there is an opportunity for** 

### 3 **retail to be different. If it is not measured** 

### 4 **then brightest selectable preset picture** 

### 5 **setting at home could actually be much dimmer** 

### 6 **than what you see in the store.** 

### 7 **MR. FAIRHURST: Exactly.** 

### 8 **MS. RADULOVIC: Okay. All right.** 

### 9 **MR. FAIRHURST: So I struggled for** 

### 10 **a while to figure out how to solve this** 

### 11 **problem because I know that DOE was concerned** 

### 12 **that the difficulty is that you do all this** 

### 13 **testing in home mode and then there is no way** 

### 14 **to get back to retail mode. I think that is** 

### 15 **what prompted this.** 

### 16 **And so a possible solution would** 

### 17 **be for DOE to say to test in retail mode when** 

### 18 **possible. In other words, if the retail mode** 

### 19 **is now accessible, test the luminance not in** 

### 20 **the brightest selectable mode in home but in** 

### 21 **retail. And for some televisions it may be** 

### 22 **impossible and it is not tested.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 EPA, on the other hand could, or**  

### 2 **in addition, could set a performance** 

### 3 **requirement that says the television must be** 

### 4 **testable in retail mode after the fact. And** 

### 5 **then this DOE kind of recommended test of** 

### 6 **measuring the brightness in retail mode would** 

### 7 **be done as a requirement by EPA.** 

### 8 **So it is a way where, yes, if you** 

### 9 **don't want the TV to be ENERGY STAR rated,** 

### 10 **then you wouldn't have to make it testable in** 

### 11 **retail mode. But if you did, then you would** 

### 12 **need to provide that capability that the reset** 

### 13 **is there to get back into retail mode.** 

### 14 **Anyway, it is a simple solution** 

### 15 **that might make everyone happy. The other** 

### 16 **solution that would make manufacturers happy,** 

### 17 **of course, is well just don't test the** 

### 18 **luminance but I don't know that that would be** 

### 19 **acceptable to all.** 

### 20 **But I do see this current proposal** 

### 21 **as not solving either situation. It doesn't** 

### 22 **eliminate it, which would make the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 manufacturers happy. And it doesn't compare**  

### 2 **it to retail mode, which would make EPA and** 

### 3 **maybe some of the advocates happy.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: On a follow-up to** 

### 6 **Jon. Jon, you had mentioned international** 

### 7 **harmonization in your introductory part of the** 

### 8 **question. Is there an international** 

### 9 **harmonization issue here as well?** 

### 10 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes. Currently,** 

### 11 **IEC 62087 3.0 doesn't include this in the** 

### 12 **test; 4.0, the current draft does include** 

### 13 **luminance testing.** 

### 14 **And internationally, it is** 

### 15 **measured in Australia, Europe, and Canada, and** 

### 16 **maybe some other locations as well. That is** 

### 17 **not done in the test procedure today but by** 

### 18 **government regulation. And in each case, it** 

### 19 **is retail mode not the brightest selectable** 

### 20 **mode in the home mode selection.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Verena.** 

### 22 **MS. RADULOVIC: What about if**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 another idea is what if you had kind of an**  

### 2 **additional definition for retail and well you** 

### 3 **could say something like if retail is not the** 

### 4 **same thing as brightest selectable preset** 

### 5 **picture setting, then you could sort of have** 

### 6 **some caveat for how you -- where the 65** 

### 7 **percent ratio is, whether you do it for retail** 

### 8 **or whether you do it for the brightest** 

### 9 **selectable preset picture setting. And this** 

### 10 **is really more from a programmatic** 

### 11 **implementation but I think it is helpful to** 

### 12 **sort of walk through these sort of scenarios** 

### 13 **because once the definitions are set, ENERGY** 

### 14 **STAR really tries to harmonize. We want to** 

### 15 **harmonize and we are really going with** 

### 16 **whatever DOE does. And so it is important** 

### 17 **that this is something that can then be** 

### 18 **translated into a program.** 

### 19 **So in other words, could you have** 

### 20 **retail and brightest selectable preset mean** 

### 21 **the same thing and if they don't, then you are** 

### 22 **in the situation here where brightest**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 selectable preset picture might be retail. It**  

### 2 **might not be.** 

### 3 **And then if it is not, then you** 

### 4 **test according to the most -- 65 percent of** 

### 5 **the brightest.** 

### 6 **MR. DOMMU: This is Jeremy. One** 

### 7 **other thing to consider is we are having -- we** 

### 8 **are proposing to have an output of the SNOPR,** 

### 9 **which is the luminance ratio, which would be** 

### 10 **calculated as the default picture setting,** 

### 11 **divided by the brightest selectable preset** 

### 12 **picture setting. So that ratio is going to** 

### 13 **be, as proposed, an output of the test** 

### 14 **procedure.** 

### 15 **MS. RADULOVIC: But just sort of** 

### 16 **to Jon's point, if it is brightest selectable** 

### 17 **in the home, that might be a different --** 

### 18 **MR. DOMMU: I definitely** 

### 19 **acknowledge that point and hear that comment.** 

### 20 **MS. RADULOVIC: Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. DOMMU: I think there are a** 

### 22 **couple of good solutions that you guys were**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 both passing around. So we will certainly**  

### 2 **give some more thought to this.** 

### 3 **Do stakeholders want us to** 

### 4 **continue to test luminance in retail mode? It** 

### 5 **sounds like from what I am hearing that that** 

### 6 **is something that would be helpful.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bijit?** 

### 8 **MR. KUNDU: Yes, I mean at least** 

### 9 **from my perspective, I think if a consumer can** 

### 10 **select -- if a TV can be in that mode in the** 

### 11 **home, then yes, I would say it should be** 

### 12 **tested. So even if it is a retail option that** 

### 13 **a consumer can go to somehow either upon first** 

### 14 **set up or scrolling back, then yes.** 

### 15 **MR. DOMMU: Okay.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy, there is a** 

### 17 **question on the table and others may wish to** 

### 18 **respond. Christopher?** 

### 19 **MR. WOLD: This is Chris Wold from** 

### 20 **CLASP. I just wanted to add that we had one** 

### 21 **of our consultants, Keith Jones, look into the** 

### 22 **harmonization aspect of it. And I think it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 his understanding that Australia actually has**  

### 2 **changed it to the proposed definition change** 

### 3 **that DOE is making. And I think also he said** 

### 4 **that it looks like Europe may have the same** 

### 5 **change as well and Australia may have this** 

### 6 **newer definition.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Verena.** 

### 8 **MS. RADULOVIC: For those** 

### 9 **manufacturers in the room, I am just wondering** 

### 10 **if you have any feedback from the last couple** 

### 11 **of years where consumers have had this choice,** 

### 12 **I think since ENERGY STAR version 4 or version** 

### 13 **5, where they have had this choice between** 

### 14 **home and retail. And from a consumer** 

### 15 **standpoint, it is really easy. In lay terms** 

### 16 **they can just see home or retail.** 

### 17 **Have the manufacturers gotten any** 

### 18 **feedback over the last couple of years as to** 

### 19 **whether or not that is a feature that** 

### 20 **consumers go to or whether or not that is** 

### 21 **something you might continue to do in the** 

### 22 **future? Because a lot of what is happening**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 here, these definitions are sort of born out**  

### 2 **of a programmatic implementation where ENERGY** 

### 3 **STAR acknowledged that you had a different** 

### 4 **brightness that was optimized for in-store** 

### 5 **viewing and then optimized from the home. And** 

### 6 **I am just wondering if that is something that** 

### 7 **is going to continue or if that is something** 

### 8 **where you are going to start to see a consumer** 

### 9 **going to the TV and saying brightest possible** 

### 10 **and then like for your living room. Because** 

### 11 **that is part of what I think we are wrestling** 

### 12 **with here is that you have got this already in** 

### 13 **place.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 16 **There is another concern that we have and I** 

### 17 **will be honest, we don't have any data yet** 

### 18 **because we have only just started to look into** 

### 19 **this but we are thinking that there is an** 

### 20 **awful lot of televisions that are used in** 

### 21 **public places where retail mode, quite** 

### 22 **frankly, is not only preferred but in some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 cases, due to the brightness levels of the**  

### 2 **ambient conditions, almost necessary to make** 

### 3 **whatever is on the thing attractive, I guess** 

### 4 **you could say.** 

### 5 **Places like retail settings and** 

### 6 **bars and restaurants and some things where** 

### 7 **sometimes ambient light levels are quite high,** 

### 8 **especially in the vicinity of the TV. And we** 

### 9 **think that there may be a considerable** 

### 10 **opportunity for folks to just select retail** 

### 11 **because in that commercial setting, that is** 

### 12 **what you need to get the content on the** 

### 13 **television to display brightly enough to be** 

### 14 **noticeable.** 

### 15 **And so again, I don't have any** 

### 16 **data on this yet because we are not sure** 

### 17 **sometimes whether what we are looking at is a** 

### 18 **display or a TV. But we think there is enough** 

### 19 **instances potentially where we may really want** 

### 20 **to know what the energy consumption of these** 

### 21 **things is in a retail mode because we may find** 

### 22 **enough stuff out there in the marketplace.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 We are just getting ready to start**  

### 2 **up our commercial survey and start measuring** 

### 3 **some of these things. So we will see what we** 

### 4 **find when we get out there but we are** 

### 5 **concerned a little bit that there will be** 

### 6 **settings out there where the retail mode is** 

### 7 **what they want.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? Anthony.** 

### 9 **MR. ROTOLO: Just one comment.** 

### 10 **Some stuff that we have noticed in testing is** 

### 11 **that when the retail mode is selected,** 

### 12 **oftentimes we have seen tickers displayed on** 

### 13 **the bottom of the TV, on the side of the TV,** 

### 14 **and periodically these will pop up to the full** 

### 15 **screen. For one, it makes it difficult to,** 

### 16 **actually nearly impossible to determine the** 

### 17 **luminance value. It will display content at** 

### 18 **the same time but as part of this ticker** 

### 19 **function or it is often called demos, it will** 

### 20 **obstruct the luminance measurement.** 

### 21 **So it makes it one, difficult to** 

### 22 **test and then two, oftentimes you are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 commenting that in a real world situation, it**  

### 2 **is not highly desirable to have your content** 

### 3 **frequently interrupted by more or less** 

### 4 **displayed kind of showcasing the TV's** 

### 5 **functions.** 

### 6 **And then one other, I guess kind** 

### 7 **of add-on was that in the NOPR we received** 

### 8 **comment from some manufacturers saying that** 

### 9 **this luminance ratio shouldn't be calculated** 

### 10 **at all. They had never received comments** 

### 11 **saying that their TVs they had an issue being** 

### 12 **too dim.** 

### 13 **So in the event that they were to** 

### 14 **have a TV that retailed one brightness level** 

### 15 **and then was only capable of another, I think** 

### 16 **it is the potential to kind of prompt this** 

### 17 **issue, which they say they have never** 

### 18 **encountered.** 

### 19 **So those are just some side notes** 

### 20 **that I made.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Louis.** 

### 22 **MR. DESROCHES: I was going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 make the same comment that Anthony just made**  

### 2 **about the ticker demo, which is another reason** 

### 3 **why the proposed luminance testing is at the** 

### 4 **brightest selectable in the home.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: One of our web** 

### 6 **participants wants to join us. He has raised** 

### 7 **his hand. David Maciel, if I pronounced that** 

### 8 **correctly. David, speak clearly and loudly** 

### 9 **and hopefully we will hear you.** 

### 10 **MR. MACIEL: Can you hear me now?** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can.** 

### 12 **MR. MACIEL: This is David from** 

### 13 **Sony Electronics.** 

### 14 **I basically had a question about** 

### 15 **that. We have the same concern that Jon** 

### 16 **Fairhurst just explained. And quite honestly,** 

### 17 **we believe that there isn't sufficient data at** 

### 18 **the moment to continue to measure luminance or** 

### 19 **power consumption at the retail mode.** 

### 20 **But the one question that I had** 

### 21 **and it may be more towards the member from** 

### 22 **CLASP that is in this meeting, is there any**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 data to support that some consumers are**  

### 2 **switching to the retail mode? And one other** 

### 3 **comment that I have in regards to that is that** 

### 4 **back when this issue was first raised in** 

### 5 **discussions with ENERGY STAR, I made a request** 

### 6 **to our service department to see if it was** 

### 7 **possible to collect this kind of data.** 

### 8 **And for the past year, we have** 

### 9 **only received one inquiry about one consumer** 

### 10 **switching from home mode to retail mode. So** 

### 11 **he mentions, I believe, that in essence it is** 

### 12 **not really necessary to measure the retail** 

### 13 **mode but I do understand the consequences of** 

### 14 **not doing it because of harmonization and** 

### 15 **other things and because of what is required** 

### 16 **from ENERGY STAR.** 

### 17 **And the last comment that I have** 

### 18 **is that in regards to the televisions that are** 

### 19 **used in public spaces, I wonder what** 

### 20 **percentage of those units composed the entire** 

### 21 **population of TVs on the market. I would** 

### 22 **assume that it is relative small. And so, in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 essence, is it really important to continue to**  

### 2 **measure energy in luminance at the retail** 

### 3 **mode?** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chris, you** 

### 5 **are next in the queue.** 

### 6 **MR. WOLD: I would just also ask** 

### 7 **the question -- this is Chris from CLASP --** 

### 8 **when we did our data collection, we did not** 

### 9 **measure or look at what mode the televisions** 

### 10 **were in. We just measured the background** 

### 11 **lighting levels. So we don't have any** 

### 12 **information on what mode those televisions** 

### 13 **were viewed in when we collected our data.** 

### 14 **I did have one kind of question** 

### 15 **though is that in terms of looking at the** 

### 16 **menu, is the way that it is worded, it says** 

### 17 **home selectable menu, is it possible that a** 

### 18 **manufacturer could create a category that says** 

### 19 **home and then has different viewing levels,** 

### 20 **and then retail and has different lighting** 

### 21 **viewing levels? I'm just not sure what it** 

### 22 **means in terms of the language is that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 whatever level that the consumer has access to**  

### 2 **or whatever lighting level they can switch to,** 

### 3 **that is what you are suggesting it gets** 

### 4 **measured in, not that there is like a category** 

### 5 **called home and then they can select a** 

### 6 **lighting level within that category.** 

### 7 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, this is Jeremy.** 

### 8 **I mean the intent is that for a television** 

### 9 **that has a forced menu that pops up that** 

### 10 **prompts the consumer to either select or home** 

### 11 **or retail that they select home. And then** 

### 12 **within that home, after they have selected** 

### 13 **home, the brightest selectable preset picture** 

### 14 **setting and the default picture setting would** 

### 15 **be the ones that luminance is measured at.** 

### 16 **MR. ROTOLO: Some of the -- just a** 

### 17 **little bit of background on the forced menu** 

### 18 **itself, the forced menu kind of originally** 

### 19 **arose from a specification in ENERGY STAR,** 

### 20 **which kind of specified that it had to have** 

### 21 **these two options and that is why we see it in** 

### 22 **so many TVs. Not that they have to do it but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 it is a specification for ENERGY STAR.**  

### 2 **And I would just like to also** 

### 3 **comment that the default picture setting,** 

### 4 **which is the picture setting which we are only** 

### 5 **measuring power in, we are not proposing to** 

### 6 **measure the power consumption in the brightest** 

### 7 **selectable picture setting. This is only** 

### 8 **measured -- the luminance is only measured in** 

### 9 **this setting for the sake of producing** 

### 10 **luminance ratio.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Verena.** 

### 12 **MS. RADULOVIC: And so I think it** 

### 13 **is interesting because when you have for** 

### 14 **anything for DOE's purposes or just for** 

### 15 **reporting, if you are just testing the on-mode** 

### 16 **power in the default picture setting, in the** 

### 17 **default and home, that is one thing. When you** 

### 18 **are trying to, from an ENERGY STAR** 

### 19 **perspective, from an energy efficiency** 

### 20 **performance levels in a voluntary program,** 

### 21 **then you need to make sure that the default is** 

### 22 **within a certain ratio to the brightest so**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 that you can, I guess, compare -- yes, so that**  

### 2 **you can make sure that you are getting at** 

### 3 **least a certain percentage of the brightest** 

### 4 **for what you are measuring.** 

### 5 **So I think from our perspective, I** 

### 6 **like the levels of definitions because we sort** 

### 7 **of, we are seeing a lot more nuances and a lot** 

### 8 **more details in what kind of settings are** 

### 9 **available to the consumers. And I think it is** 

### 10 **valuable to have this level of detail and** 

### 11 **these different definitions.** 

### 12 **I would advocate in having an** 

### 13 **additional definition for retail so a program** 

### 14 **like ENERGY STAR can use that when we are** 

### 15 **setting ratios or we can have more flexibility** 

### 16 **in understanding what the differences between** 

### 17 **retail and brightest, pre-selectable, and** 

### 18 **home.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 20 **MR. DOMMU: Could I just jump in** 

### 21 **for one second?** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy, please.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 MR. DOMMU: Just to clarify right**  

### 2 **now we are not proposing to add a definition** 

### 3 **for home or retail within the SNOPR. We do** 

### 4 **have these new definitions for default picture** 

### 5 **setting and brightest selectable preset** 

### 6 **picture settings.** 

### 7 **So from your standpoint you are** 

### 8 **requesting that we add those back in. And to** 

### 9 **follow up on that, would it also be helpful to** 

### 10 **add in a definition of forced menu?** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Verena.** 

### 12 **MS. RADULOVIC: I think from the** 

### 13 **ENERGY STAR perspective, yes, so long as TVs** 

### 14 **are designed the way they are. I guess if DOE** 

### 15 **is silent on that, then we would probably want** 

### 16 **to determine whether or not ENERGY STAR would** 

### 17 **then have additional flexibility to add those** 

### 18 **in if it is not in the -- you know as part of** 

### 19 **a federal definition.** 

### 20 **So I guess I could see -- I could** 

### 21 **find a way. Either way would work. I think** 

### 22 **it would be cleaner and easier if there was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 more definitions and more clarity, rather than**  

### 2 **less. But if there is an interest in having** 

### 3 **just the default and then the brightest** 

### 4 **selectable, I could see a situation where** 

### 5 **ENERGY STAR might specify if retail is a lot** 

### 6 **brighter than brightest pre-selectable, then** 

### 7 **we can account for it that way.** 

### 8 **So my preference would be to keep** 

### 9 **the definitions in there but if it is not** 

### 10 **something that will happen, then we can work** 

### 11 **with that.** 

### 12 **MR. DOMMU: Okay. One more** 

### 13 **follow-up question for everyone, if you guys** 

### 14 **don't mind.** 

### 15 **So would it be helpful -- I am** 

### 16 **hearing two potential solutions or two** 

### 17 **potential suggestions. One is to keep the** 

### 18 **definition or the tests for the brightest** 

### 19 **selectable preset picture setting but also** 

### 20 **have retail within the scope, so the brightest** 

### 21 **selectable preset picture setting would either** 

### 22 **be the brightest one in home or retail. Or to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 keep the brightest selectable preset picture**  

### 2 **as we currently have it proposed where it is** 

### 3 **only the brightest selectable preset picture** 

### 4 **setting within home but then to also have a** 

### 5 **separate test for retail.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon first.** 

### 7 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, I would hope** 

### 8 **that we wouldn't test the brightest in-home** 

### 9 **and retail because I think it is extra costs** 

### 10 **that wouldn't necessarily add anything.** 

### 11 **I also think it is important that** 

### 12 **when there will be a ratio requirement applied** 

### 13 **that it is between what people are seeing in** 

### 14 **retail, which is typically very bright, and** 

### 15 **what people are seeing at home.** 

### 16 **I was at the meeting, the DEFRA** 

### 17 **meeting in London when the forced menu was** 

### 18 **invented around the table. And I think that** 

### 19 **this innovation has been the most effective** 

### 20 **and least expensive energy saving technology** 

### 21 **that we have developed. We didn't need new** 

### 22 **factories to make more efficient televisions**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 but prior to that, the manufacturers would**  

### 2 **compete to get the brightest TV to draw your** 

### 3 **attention. The brightest television appears** 

### 4 **to have the best picture, the best contrast** 

### 5 **and everything, so it sells well. And then** 

### 6 **without the forced menu, people were bringing** 

### 7 **the television home and viewing the television** 

### 8 **in this very consumptive mode.** 

### 9 **So by having the forced menu, we** 

### 10 **have decreased power consumption in the U.S.** 

### 11 **immeasurably. It has been huge. So we want** 

### 12 **to -- so, therefore, I think DOE should define** 

### 13 **forced menu home mode or the home selection** 

### 14 **and the retail selection from the forced menu.** 

### 15 **If we are going to test it all, it** 

### 16 **makes sense to test in retail mode when** 

### 17 **available. And if it is not available, you** 

### 18 **could say well if you can't get into retail** 

### 19 **mode, then test the brightest selectable mode** 

### 20 **in home mode. And that would be a way for DOE** 

### 21 **to solve it and it would allow EPA to** 

### 22 **potentially require that yes, you might have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 tested in brightest selectable but if you want**  

### 2 **to pass EPA's ENERGY STAR, you have to have** 

### 3 **tested in retail.** 

### 4 **MS. RADULOVIC: I mean I think** 

### 5 **there is -- this is Verena from ENERGY STAR --** 

### 6 **from EPA. I mean there might be a way to keep** 

### 7 **it simple where you do have separate** 

### 8 **definitions, one for retail and one for** 

### 9 **brightest pre-selectable. Those could be the** 

### 10 **same thing but may not necessarily be the same** 

### 11 **thing. And that is, I think, if they are the** 

### 12 **same thing, then you don't have a problem.** 

### 13 **Then you have got your testing, at least from** 

### 14 **a programmatic standpoint, you would have 65** 

### 15 **percent of whatever essentially is the** 

### 16 **maximum. And if they are different, then you** 

### 17 **allow for that difference to be there.** 

### 18 **So that might be a way to address** 

### 19 **it. And that might also sort of future proof** 

### 20 **it, where if you -- you know I think the** 

### 21 **forced menu sounds like it will be here for a** 

### 22 **while. But if it ever is not, then you at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 least have that option that you have the**  

### 2 **brightest pre-selectable, if that forced menu** 

### 3 **is not there.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 5 **MR. DESROCHES: Louis Desroches,** 

### 6 **LBL. A quick question for Jon.** 

### 7 **In cases where the television does** 

### 8 **have a retail menu, but it also has this** 

### 9 **ticker demo overlay on top of that, what would** 

### 10 **you suggest for those cases?** 

### 11 **MR. FAIRHURST: So the demo mode** 

### 12 **that you are talking about or the ticker, is** 

### 13 **that covering the middle of the screen?** 

### 14 **Because that would surprise me.** 

### 15 **MR. ROTOLO: We have seen it in** 

### 16 **cases where there will be something from the** 

### 17 **bottom of the ticker that will pop up and** 

### 18 **cover the entire screen. We have also seen** 

### 19 **cases where the ticker itself will just be on** 

### 20 **either the bottom bar or the side bar.** 

### 21 **The implications on this, on the** 

### 22 **three-bar test, which is used to determine**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 screen luminance is that it tends, even though**  

### 2 **if there is a black region on the bottom of** 

### 3 **the screen, the bottom middle part does tend** 

### 4 **to have some repercussions even on the center.** 

### 5 **So even if it is the brightest, it might be** 

### 6 **different if the ticker was not there. That's** 

### 7 **just a comment.** 

### 8 **MR. FAIRHURST: So it would be** 

### 9 **possible then for DOE to say to test in the** 

### 10 **retail mode when possible, allowing for some** 

### 11 **of these things that might happen.** 

### 12 **One other comment I have,** 

### 13 **internationally in the latest draft for IEC** 

### 14 **4.0 draft, it measures the retail mode, not** 

### 15 **the home mode. And I hadn't heard from the** 

### 16 **Europeans or even from Keith in these meetings** 

### 17 **about changing within the regulatory** 

### 18 **environment. So that is new information for** 

### 19 **me.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Charlie?** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 22 **Our concern is where we measure**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 the power consumption of the TV, actually.**  

### 2 **And I remember a meeting I attended way back** 

### 3 **around the turn of the century, I think, where** 

### 4 **a researcher, and I can't remember if it was** 

### 5 **Panasonic or Sharp, basically shared some of** 

### 6 **his research about energy consumption during a** 

### 7 **typical hour of television. And he noted that** 

### 8 **about 50 some percent, 54 percent or something** 

### 9 **of the power consumption of the television** 

### 10 **during any given hour was during the 27** 

### 11 **minutes of commercials. And he noted that the** 

### 12 **reason for that was both because the** 

### 13 **television was louder and brighter during the** 

### 14 **commercials.** 

### 15 **So from that, I took the notion** 

### 16 **that the content does matter but I also took** 

### 17 **from that that the screen brightness matters a** 

### 18 **lot to the power consumption of the television** 

### 19 **and probably always will. So my biggest** 

### 20 **concern, again, is where are we measuring the** 

### 21 **power consumption of the television? What** 

### 22 **mode is the television in when we are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 measuring its energy consumption?**  

### 2 **And so I hear all the arguments** 

### 3 **here about measuring screen luminance and** 

### 4 **everything else. I get that and I am kind of** 

### 5 **ambivalent. Whatever works for people is, I** 

### 6 **think, okay with me. But I am really** 

### 7 **concerned that we measure the television in** 

### 8 **the right setting, the right home setting, so** 

### 9 **that it is somewhat representative of what we** 

### 10 **are going to find in the field.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: One of our web** 

### 12 **participants, Jeff Howell, wishes to raise a** 

### 13 **question or a comment. Jeff, speak clearly.** 

### 14 **MR. HOWELL: Yes, this is Jeff** 

### 15 **Howell at Toshiba.** 

### 16 **So I just had a comment for the** 

### 17 **suggestion that if you are going to say that -** 

### 18 **-** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Hey, Jeff, it** 

### 20 **sounds like you are on a speaker phone. Can** 

### 21 **you get off the speaker? We can't hear you** 

### 22 **now, if you are trying. Nothing yet.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 Jeff you are not coming through.**  

### 2 **Jeff, my web guy says you are not coming** 

### 3 **through. You are not connected. Our web guy** 

### 4 **says when your audio comes back on, we will** 

### 5 **get you back into this conversation. In the** 

### 6 **meantime, we are going to proceed.** 

### 7 **Additional comments here? Yes,** 

### 8 **Bill.** 

### 9 **MR. SCHINDLER: Hi, this is Bill** 

### 10 **Schindler. All of our TVs today have the same** 

### 11 **brightness in retail as they do in the** 

### 12 **brightest setting in the whole menu. So it** 

### 13 **would be a nonissue. Okay? And we are okay** 

### 14 **with it either way. That is what our factory** 

### 15 **is saying. But they prefer to go and measure** 

### 16 **the retail mode because that is a well** 

### 17 **established ENERGY STAR, California Energy** 

### 18 **Commission approach over the last five years.** 

### 19 **And as Jon pointed out, the home retail menu** 

### 20 **does save a lot of power in that people, for** 

### 21 **the most part, you are saying where is it that** 

### 22 **people would gravitate towards well we find**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 that home is a lot more obvious for a consumer**  

### 2 **to go into as opposed to retail.** 

### 3 **And yes, there are issues that** 

### 4 **retail -- some are, not ours but others, give** 

### 5 **these little clips on the bottom or something.** 

### 6 **They can't be huge clips because when you are** 

### 7 **at a retailer and you are trying to evaluate** 

### 8 **the performance of that TV next another, it** 

### 9 **really yes, it may occasionally jump into some** 

### 10 **advertisement but it better most of the time** 

### 11 **be a normal TV.** 

### 12 **And along that same line, real** 

### 13 **quick, it should be available to get back into** 

### 14 **retail mode, even if you are in home mode.** 

### 15 **There should be a factory reset and we have** 

### 16 **found this to be true. In other IEC meetings** 

### 17 **we had people saying that, that they haven't** 

### 18 **found cases where you couldn't. Part of the** 

### 19 **reason is that if you have a TV at a major** 

### 20 **retailer and it is set up by someone who is** 

### 21 **having a bad day and just presses home by** 

### 22 **mistake, you want to back up and get back into**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 retail mode. You want to have a factory**  

### 2 **reset.** 

### 3 **So I would say measuring in retail** 

### 4 **mode, where possible, and if not possible,** 

### 5 **then go into the home menu and do the** 

### 6 **brightest selectable setting, which in our** 

### 7 **case is the same thing.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jon.** 

### 9 **MR. FAIRHURST: yes, and if the** 

### 10 **DOE does have this option where you should do** 

### 11 **it this way and if it is not possible, do it** 

### 12 **this other way, then it is advisable that that** 

### 13 **be noted in any report so that that can be** 

### 14 **traced back. For instance, ENERGY STAR could** 

### 15 **note how it was tested and so forth.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff Howell, let's** 

### 17 **try you again. Try it.** 

### 18 **MR. HOWELL: Yes, can you hear me** 

### 19 **now?** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we can. Good.** 

### 21 **MR. HOWELL: Yes, my only comment,** 

### 22 **so we share some of the same concerns as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 everybody else and we appreciate Verena's**  

### 2 **suggestion. But we would be concerned. So if** 

### 3 **you said that well as long as retail mode and** 

### 4 **the brightest selectable mode are the same,** 

### 5 **you don't have to do anything. And that is** 

### 6 **fine but the only way you can prove that is** 

### 7 **you would have to test the luminance in retail** 

### 8 **mode and brightest selectable mode. And we** 

### 9 **are all for an accurate test procedure but we** 

### 10 **would like to keep it as simple as possible.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 12 **MR. HOWELL: Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Have we covered it** 

### 14 **now? That seemed like that was pretty** 

### 15 **complete. In fact, we are starting to get a** 

### 16 **little redundant, I think. We are about to** 

### 17 **move on. Okay? Everybody comfortable? We** 

### 18 **are moving on.** 

### 19 **MR. ROTOLO: Also, just one more** 

### 20 **comment, are there any additional comments on** 

### 21 **special functions, additional functions, dark** 

### 22 **room or input connections, which we did not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 discuss here?**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. ROTOLO: So now I would like** 

### 4 **to turn it over to Kurt Klinke.** 

### 5 **MR. KLINKE: Thank you, Anthony.** 

### 6 **Again, my name is Kurt Klinke and I am with** 

### 7 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 8 **Next we would like to go over some** 

### 9 **changes that we have proposed to the test** 

### 10 **conditions.** 

### 11 **In the SNOPR, DOE has proposed** 

### 12 **changes to the following test conditions: the** 

### 13 **supply voltage and frequency, the input cable** 

### 14 **type, input terminals, and video input device** 

### 15 **used for testing, the stabilization required** 

### 16 **before testing, and the actual test order.** 

### 17 **Again, similar to the definitions** 

### 18 **section, we won't be going into more detail** 

### 19 **for some of these. We will be going into more** 

### 20 **detail on the bolded items. So I will give** 

### 21 **you a short summary here of all the items.** 

### 22 **DOE has proposed updating the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 supply voltage and frequency requirements to**  

### 2 **incorporate the requirements from IEC 62301 by** 

### 3 **reference to allow for international groups to** 

### 4 **use this test procedure for testing. However,** 

### 5 **again, the voltage and frequency requirements** 

### 6 **for the U.S. will still remain the same. So** 

### 7 **at 150 volts, 60 hertz.** 

### 8 **We removed DVI and VGA as possible** 

### 9 **input cables for testing, since they are** 

### 10 **intended to be used for displays as opposed to** 

### 11 **TVs. DOE included a requirement that the** 

### 12 **input terminal designated for typical TV** 

### 13 **viewing should be used during testing. DOE** 

### 14 **has also specified that the TV and video input** 

### 15 **device manufacturers shall not be the same** 

### 16 **during testing.** 

### 17 **We updated the stabilization** 

### 18 **requirements to incorporate IEC 62087, Edition** 

### 19 **3.0 by reference. And finally, we updated the** 

### 20 **test order. And this goes along with the** 

### 21 **conversation that we just had about the new** 

### 22 **definitions for the luminance mode tests. We**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 updated the test order to align with, again,**  

### 2 **IEC 62087 and CEA 2037.** 

### 3 **And so now we would like to go** 

### 4 **over the two topics input terminals and the** 

### 5 **video input device in a little bit more** 

### 6 **detail.** 

### 7 **In the NOPR, DOE did not specify** 

### 8 **what input terminal to use during testing.** 

### 9 **During the round robin testing, DOE actually** 

### 10 **discovered that using different input** 

### 11 **terminals could alter a TV's power** 

### 12 **consumption. Based on the round robin** 

### 13 **testing, we again did additional testing to** 

### 14 **investigate this issue.** 

### 15 **DOE performed additional testing** 

### 16 **with the ABC sensor disabled and found that** 

### 17 **some input terminals are designated for** 

### 18 **specific uses, in this case, such as gaming.** 

### 19 **In these cases, the default picture setting in** 

### 20 **which the TV entered changed based on the** 

### 21 **input terminal being used, resulting in** 

### 22 **changes in power consumption. As such, DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 has proposed to include the requirement that**  

### 2 **the primary input terminal designated for** 

### 3 **viewing dynamic content or live TV with a Blu** 

### 4 **ray disc player or set-top box shall be used** 

### 5 **for testing. So here are a couple of examples** 

### 6 **of possible input terminal designations on a** 

### 7 **TV that would be and would not be acceptable** 

### 8 **during testing.** 

### 9 **At this time, DOE would like to** 

### 10 **request comment from interested parties on the** 

### 11 **proposal to perform testing using the primary** 

### 12 **input terminal.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 14 **MR. FAIRHURST: This is Jon** 

### 15 **Fairhurst from Sharp. I support this** 

### 16 **strongly. I think this is a good improvement** 

### 17 **in terms of eliminating, as commented** 

### 18 **previously, not only eliminating the DVI and** 

### 19 **VGA, but then additionally, since that time,** 

### 20 **eliminating game inputs and alternate inputs** 

### 21 **of that nature.** 

### 22 **In addition by requiring that the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 manufacturer of the source be different than**  

### 2 **the manufacturer of the television, that is a** 

### 3 **good discovery. We had seen that but didn't** 

### 4 **know what was causing the effect at a previous** 

### 5 **IEC meeting. So I will be making a comment to** 

### 6 **IEC to incorporate the same requirement.** 

### 7 **Oh actually, come to think of it,** 

### 8 **I put it in the last draft. So it is already** 

### 9 **there. So thanks for that input and it** 

### 10 **doesn't increase burden for testing** 

### 11 **significantly.** 

### 12 **One other thing I would like to** 

### 13 **introduce, though is that -- oh, I also** 

### 14 **appreciate the internationalization by** 

### 15 **allowing 50 hertz, 240 volts. To further** 

### 16 **that, I would suggest that DOE allow 50 hertz** 

### 17 **video sources to be used, prioritizing 60** 

### 18 **hertz because that is the -- or 59.94, which** 

### 19 **is the U.S. standard. So that should be the** 

### 20 **top priority for U.S. testing. But some** 

### 21 **televisions manufactured for Europe and other** 

### 22 **places in the world might not have 60 hertz**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 inputs. And so similarly, one would want to**  

### 2 **allow that.** 

### 3 **I have some additional comments on** 

### 4 **some of the definitions for composite video** 

### 5 **and so forth regarding what specification** 

### 6 **numbers. I'm not sure if you are going to get** 

### 7 **into that later.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: What is the best** 

### 9 **place to have that comment?** 

### 10 **MR. KLINKE: Do we have that in** 

### 11 **the backup slides? So we can actually go over** 

### 12 **that now because that was not something that** 

### 13 **we were originally going to --** 

### 14 **MR. DOMMU: Let's maybe continue** 

### 15 **this conversation and see if there is any** 

### 16 **other stakeholders who have feedback on this** 

### 17 **particular issue before we get into that.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you,** 

### 19 **Jeremy. Yes, so additional comments on test** 

### 20 **conditions, input terminal, this content?** 

### 21 **MR. KLINKE: Okay, so now we can** 

### 22 **go into discussing specifically -- oh, sorry.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Bill, go ahead.**  

### 2 **MR. SCHINDLER: I'm not sure** 

### 3 **whether -- Hi, this is Bill Schindler.** 

### 4 **I need to make a statement about** 

### 5 **video input device.** 

### 6 **MR. KLINKE: Yes, we will get to** 

### 7 **that.** 

### 8 **MR. SCHINDLER: Is that coming up?** 

### 9 **MR. KLINKE: Yes, that is** 

### 10 **something that we will discuss.** 

### 11 **MR. SCHINDLER: I'm sorry.** 

### 12 **MR. DOMMU: Let's get into that,** 

### 13 **the video input device and then we will go** 

### 14 **back to the VGA.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: But before we do,** 

### 16 **Charlie.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 18 **I understand why you are doing this but it** 

### 19 **kind of highlights what I was saying earlier** 

### 20 **about being concerned about what mode we test** 

### 21 **the power consumption of the television in.** 

### 22 **Next month we will have some data on gaming,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 console use and television use, and hours of**  

### 2 **use. And we will probably be able to know at** 

### 3 **least for our statistical sample, how many --** 

### 4 **what fraction of television hours, primary** 

### 5 **television, secondary television, and tertiary** 

### 6 **television, actually, are used for gaming and** 

### 7 **what fraction is used for viewing and which** 

### 8 **devices in the home are on, whether it be a** 

### 9 **DVD player or a set-top box, or a game** 

### 10 **console, or whatever, in conjunction with the** 

### 11 **television. And it may be that we may find** 

### 12 **that if 40 percent of the primary television** 

### 13 **viewing is done in the gaming mode, then it** 

### 14 **really matters measuring the television** 

### 15 **consumption that you get when you plug** 

### 16 **something in to the gaming terminal.** 

### 17 **So again, I will be providing all** 

### 18 **of that data.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: That's next month.** 

### 20 **It is after the submission date.** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: Well yes and no. I** 

### 22 **mean, it is not necessarily the test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 procedure. It is what you do with the output**  

### 2 **of the test procedure, potentially. It might** 

### 3 **have more to do with standards or whatever.** 

### 4 **But anyway, the idea here is I am** 

### 5 **going to -- I will get it as quickly as I can** 

### 6 **but there is quite a lot of data that is** 

### 7 **coming out and it is about a month slower than** 

### 8 **we thought. But I will provide it to DOE** 

### 9 **whether you want or not. There is going to be** 

### 10 **enough data there to be useful.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy.** 

### 12 **MR. DOMMU: Well, we certainly** 

### 13 **welcome any data that you are willing to** 

### 14 **share. I mean, I would point out that not all** 

### 15 **TVs have specific input terminals for game** 

### 16 **versus set-top box versus live TV.** 

### 17 **MR. STEPHENS: True but we've got** 

### 18 **about 230 televisions. So somewhere in there** 

### 19 **we will probably find some.** 

### 20 **MR. DOMMU: No, absolutely. And** 

### 21 **we welcome that data. And we are also trying** 

### 22 **to perform a repeatable, reproducible test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 procedure.**  

### 2 **So I mean if you are proposing** 

### 3 **that okay well you test in game mode, you take** 

### 4 **a weighted average of the two based on** 

### 5 **whatever data you have, I mean I guess that is** 

### 6 **one thing to consider. But in terms of the** 

### 7 **repeatability, reproducibility, which I think** 

### 8 **we all want to make sure we get right and the** 

### 9 **representation of energy consumption, we are** 

### 10 **trying to figure out a test that is going to** 

### 11 **get us there. So I think that is where we are** 

### 12 **coming from when we want to provide additional** 

### 13 **specification on the input terminal.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: This is Charlie. I** 

### 15 **will have more to say on that when we get** 

### 16 **toward the end of the meeting and how you can** 

### 17 **maybe step around this.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And so were** 

### 19 **you going to take us in a slightly different** 

### 20 **direction here?** 

### 21 **MR. KLINKE: No. So we are going** 

### 22 **to move forward with what we were planning to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 discuss, which the next topic is the video**  

### 2 **input device used during testing. And then** 

### 3 **after that discussion, we can go into then Jon** 

### 4 **Fairhurst's question about the specific** 

### 5 **definitions used for each of the input cable** 

### 6 **types themselves.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Probably after** 

### 8 **video input device we will break for lunch.** 

### 9 **MR. KLINKE: Okay. During other** 

### 10 **testing, DOE discovered that when certain TVs** 

### 11 **were plugged into a Blu-ray player of the same** 

### 12 **manufacturer, the TV entered into a new** 

### 13 **proprietary preset picture setting. This** 

### 14 **issue occurred only when the TV and Blu-ray** 

### 15 **player shared the same manufacturer. This new** 

### 16 **picture setting, this new proprietary picture** 

### 17 **setting altered the power consumption of the** 

### 18 **TV and was also not available when the TV was** 

### 19 **plugged into a Blu-ray player of a different** 

### 20 **manufacturer. So it was only seen and only** 

### 21 **available when plugged into a Blu-ray player** 

### 22 **of the same manufacturer.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 DOE evaluated this issue by**  

### 2 **testing two TVs known to have this proprietary** 

### 3 **picture setting and, just as a note, both of** 

### 4 **these TVs were made by the same manufacturer.** 

### 5 **DOE tested both TVs with five** 

### 6 **different Blu-ray players, one of which was** 

### 7 **from the same manufacturer. The other four** 

### 8 **were made by differing manufacturers.** 

### 9 **Blu-ray player, BD Player 1 and** 

### 10 **the TV manufacturer were the same and then BD** 

### 11 **Players 2 through 5 were of different** 

### 12 **manufacturers.** 

### 13 **DOE tested both TVs in the picture** 

### 14 **setting entered by default when plugged into** 

### 15 **each Blu-ray player. When testing with Blu** 

### 16 **ray Player 1, the Blu-ray player with the same** 

### 17 **manufacturer, both TVs entered the proprietary** 

### 18 **picture setting by default. The power** 

### 19 **measured during this test is indicated by the** 

### 20 **blue bar on both graphs.** 

### 21 **When testing with Blu-ray players** 

### 22 **2 through 5, both TVs entered into the same**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 default picture setting, which was labeled**  

### 2 **standard but again, this was different than** 

### 3 **the proprietary picture setting seen with Blu** 

### 4 **ray Player 1.** 

### 5 **DOE also tested the TV with Blu** 

### 6 **ray Player 1 in the standard TV picture** 

### 7 **setting. And please note that no measurements** 

### 8 **were taken in the proprietary picture setting** 

### 9 **when testing with Blu-ray Players 2 through 5** 

### 10 **because that picture setting was not available** 

### 11 **at that time.** 

### 12 **As can be seen, both TVs consume** 

### 13 **the same amount of average power when plugged** 

### 14 **into Blu-ray Players 2 through 5 but the TVs'** 

### 15 **average power consumption varied, depending on** 

### 16 **the picture setting used when plugged into** 

### 17 **Blu-ray Player 1. TV 2 consumed the same** 

### 18 **average amount of power in the proprietary** 

### 19 **picture setting as with Blu-ray Players 2** 

### 20 **through 5 but less in the standard picture** 

### 21 **setting. Whereas, with TV 12, the TV consumed** 

### 22 **more power in the proprietary picture setting**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 and then the same amount when placed in the**  

### 2 **standard TV picture setting.** 

### 3 **The percent difference between the** 

### 4 **average power consumption seen using Blu-ray** 

### 5 **Players 2 through 5 and the power consumption** 

### 6 **seen using each picture setting using Blu-ray** 

### 7 **Player 1 for each TV are shown in the two** 

### 8 **tables at the right.** 

### 9 **Based on this testing, DOE has** 

### 10 **proposed that the video input device used for** 

### 11 **testing and the TV under test shall not have** 

### 12 **the same manufacturer to prevent any device** 

### 13 **interaction entering into this proprietary** 

### 14 **picture -- any proprietary picture setting.** 

### 15 **So at this time, DOE requests** 

### 16 **comment from interested parties on the** 

### 17 **additional specifications for video input** 

### 18 **device.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 20 **MR. FAIRHURST: So, as mentioned** 

### 21 **before, I support this.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Bill?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 MR. SCHINDLER: As not mentioned**  

### 2 **before, I don't support this. Apparently I** 

### 3 **missed the memo.** 

### 4 **The test labs that I deal with,** 

### 5 **they wanted to use their own manufacturer Blu** 

### 6 **ray. It probably was not an expense issue** 

### 7 **other than the fact that they get them for** 

### 8 **free but they know what that Blu-ray player is** 

### 9 **doing and they don't want to use someone** 

### 10 **else's Blu-ray player where they are not sure** 

### 11 **whether or not this particular issue is even** 

### 12 **happening with some other player. They don't** 

### 13 **understand someone else's equipment as well as** 

### 14 **they do their own. And that is why they have** 

### 15 **asked me to state that they would like to** 

### 16 **continue using their own equipment. And I** 

### 17 **doubt that they are doing -- the particular** 

### 18 **company that I am talking about Panasonic, I** 

### 19 **doubt that they are doing this proprietary** 

### 20 **Blu-ray issue that you have identified. I** 

### 21 **have never heard of that.** 

### 22 **MR. DOMMU: Could you go back,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 Kurt, to the previous slide?**  

### 2 **So I mean the issue that we want** 

### 3 **to get to when you look at TV 2, you would** 

### 4 **expect to have a 50 watt power measurement,** 

### 5 **where on TV 12 it is about 200 where all the** 

### 6 **TVs are pretty much are measuring out at.** 

### 7 **So I mean I guess the issue, Bill,** 

### 8 **would be if you want it to be acceptable to** 

### 9 **use the same manufacturer video input device** 

### 10 **as the TV, we saw two cases. One where even** 

### 11 **if you switched it back to the standard** 

### 12 **picture setting after it entered the** 

### 13 **proprietary picture setting, now we are** 

### 14 **getting different results based on TV 2 versus** 

### 15 **TV 12. If you turned TV 2 back to the** 

### 16 **standard picture setting, then you are not** 

### 17 **getting a consistent result. Whereas, if you** 

### 18 **turn TV 12 to the standard picture setting,** 

### 19 **you are getting a consistent result. So there** 

### 20 **is this variability that we noted that we want** 

### 21 **to try to address.** 

### 22 **So I guess the question I have for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 you, and if you don't have an answer now, we**  

### 2 **certainly welcome it in the public comments,** 

### 3 **is if we do want to allow the same** 

### 4 **manufacturer video input device as the TV** 

### 5 **manufacturer, how do we prevent this from** 

### 6 **happening?** 

### 7 **MR. SCHINDLER: Yes, I will** 

### 8 **certainly get back to you on that. I will ask** 

### 9 **them if there is a way, a test that they can** 

### 10 **do to prevent or make sure that this isn't** 

### 11 **happening.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 13 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 14 **This is an interesting effect but I think I** 

### 15 **had the opposite reaction. It seems to me** 

### 16 **that you would want to force a manufacturer to** 

### 17 **use their own Blu-ray player if they had one.** 

### 18 **MR. DOMMU: Do you want to** 

### 19 **elaborate?** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, I think it** 

### 21 **presents a worst case.** 

### 22 **MR. DOMMU: Not in TV 2.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Well it is no**  

### 2 **worse. It is either the same or it is worse.** 

### 3 **I mean and I think there is an incentive** 

### 4 **there for a manufacturer. It looks like this** 

### 5 **manufacturer, at least in one case, is** 

### 6 **enhancing the picture in some fashion when you** 

### 7 **use their stuff but it won't do that in the** 

### 8 **presence of somebody else's equipment.** 

### 9 **So to me that, is a worst case** 

### 10 **sort of circumstance. It either doesn't** 

### 11 **matter or if it does matter, it uses more** 

### 12 **energy. And to me, that to me is I would say** 

### 13 **use your own and it either matters or it** 

### 14 **doesn't.** 

### 15 **MR. DOMMU: Point taken. I mean,** 

### 16 **one quick follow-up would be with TV 12, if** 

### 17 **you used your own then you would get a** 

### 18 **different result than if you used someone** 

### 19 **else. So then that is the repeatability issue** 

### 20 **there. So how would we fix that based on what** 

### 21 **you are suggesting?** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Well it is not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 repeatability outside the lab. I mean, you**  

### 2 **get the same result every time in the lab.** 

### 3 **Right?** 

### 4 **MR. DOMMU: Yes. If a** 

### 5 **manufacturer made a claim with the** 

### 6 **representation of the power consumption of the** 

### 7 **TV using their own and then someone spot** 

### 8 **checked it using a different, you are going to** 

### 9 **get different results.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: You are going to** 

### 11 **get different results. But from what I am** 

### 12 **seeing here, you are going to get -- it will** 

### 13 **be less. It will use less than what it is** 

### 14 **advertised, which is a better circumstance** 

### 15 **than having it use more.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Anthony.** 

### 17 **MR. ROTOLO: Yes, I would just** 

### 18 **like to point out that so you have this** 

### 19 **interaction. It is only occurring when you** 

### 20 **have a player of the same manufacturer with a** 

### 21 **TV of the same manufacturer. We don't have** 

### 22 **statistics to point in one direction but we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 can infer that you have a high probability**  

### 2 **that in a typical situation you have a** 

### 3 **selection of multiple other manufacturers of** 

### 4 **players so that even if this is the tested** 

### 5 **situation, it may not be and you can infer** 

### 6 **that it most likely won't be a situation that** 

### 7 **a customer would see.** 

### 8 **And it can go either way. So the** 

### 9 **TV 2 and TV 12 are actually opposite cases.** 

### 10 **So in one case, it is a worst case scenario,** 

### 11 **whereas in the other case, it is aligning with** 

### 12 **the rest of the average power consumption of** 

### 13 **the other TVs. I think that the main issue** 

### 14 **that we are concerned about is just this** 

### 15 **communication between the two. And we see the** 

### 16 **TV as more or less a black box. So it is** 

### 17 **difficult to tell what is happening between** 

### 18 **the two and the fact that there is some type** 

### 19 **of external communication that we can't** 

### 20 **control is what concerned us.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff Howell, you** 

### 22 **are next in the queue.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 MR. HOWELL: Yes, I guess my**  

### 2 **comment is just I didn't know -- I don't have** 

### 3 **the definition of manufacturer for DOE in** 

### 4 **front of me but I wonder if you mean** 

### 5 **manufacturer brand. Because I would expect it** 

### 6 **doesn't matter where it is manufactured. It** 

### 7 **matters what brand it is.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 9 **Yes.** 

### 10 **MS. RADULOVIC: I just have a** 

### 11 **question for Kurt. This is Verena Radulovic** 

### 12 **from EPA.** 

### 13 **So when this was happening, if you** 

### 14 **are using the same manufacturer of the TV and** 

### 15 **the Blu-ray player, when it would go into the** 

### 16 **proprietary picture setting, was there a way** 

### 17 **for the lab practitioners to really easily go** 

### 18 **into standard? So it automatically went into** 

### 19 **the proprietary and were they stuck there?** 

### 20 **MR. KLINKE: No. You could then** 

### 21 **change into other preset picture settings as** 

### 22 **you would normally, just with any other Blu-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 ray player. It was just using the same**  

### 2 **manufacturer Blu-ray player. It just** 

### 3 **basically added another preset picture setting** 

### 4 **onto your list of available settings.** 

### 5 **MS. RADULOVIC: So is there a way** 

### 6 **-- in other words, if you weren't specific on** 

### 7 **the Blu-ray player, could you just be specific** 

### 8 **on if there is a proprietary setting that you** 

### 9 **change it to standard?** 

### 10 **MR. KLINKE: Yes, that is a** 

### 11 **possibility but that gets into the same** 

### 12 **repeatability issue as testing in the** 

### 13 **proprietary picture setting.** 

### 14 **MS. RADULOVIC: Oh, okay.** 

### 15 **MR. KLINKE: And in this case with** 

### 16 **TV 2, when switching back to standard, the** 

### 17 **power consumption was then lower than standard** 

### 18 **with other Blu-ray players, whereas with TV 12** 

### 19 **it was the same. So it is, unfortunately,** 

### 20 **there is that variation between the two TVs** 

### 21 **where they don't show the same reaction. And** 

### 22 **so either case that you go with, you are going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 to have the same repeatability issue.**  

### 2 **MS. RADULOVIC: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. KLINKE: In one case you are** 

### 4 **going to get the difference between the** 

### 5 **standard of the other Blu-ray players or** 

### 6 **whatever you use with, in this case, Blu-ray** 

### 7 **Player 1.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Anthony.** 

### 9 **MR. ROTOLO: Just another note is** 

### 10 **that these picture settings they were** 

### 11 **additional, as they were not seen in any other** 

### 12 **cases with Blu-ray player-TV combinations and** 

### 13 **that they were the default picture setting in** 

### 14 **both of those cases.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 16 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, two responses** 

### 17 **to some things that were said. In terms of** 

### 18 **Bill's concern about using a third party Blu** 

### 19 **ray player where maybe the test lab isn't as** 

### 20 **comfortable that it is performing properly, we** 

### 21 **do include color bars as part of the IEC test** 

### 22 **disc. So it would be possible, with some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 professional test equipment, to monitor the**  

### 2 **output of the color bars and make sure that it** 

### 3 **truly is putting out the correct digital test** 

### 4 **levels. So that could be verified.** 

### 5 **And then in terms of Charlie's** 

### 6 **concern that maybe -- suggestion that maybe we** 

### 7 **should use the same one, the intent for the** 

### 8 **IEC test disc is to make sure that we are** 

### 9 **putting out the calibrated levels so that when** 

### 10 **you use, let's say a set-top box or your tuner** 

### 11 **to view off air or the typical television** 

### 12 **streams, that this will be representative of** 

### 13 **that. I believe, I don't have the data right** 

### 14 **here, that most of the viewing is done with** 

### 15 **television broadcast or cable channels,** 

### 16 **satellite channels, and so forth, rather than** 

### 17 **watching DVD movies or Blu-ray movies. So we** 

### 18 **don't want to have a test that would not be** 

### 19 **representative when you are watching the** 

### 20 **broadcast television.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, have we** 

### 22 **covered this? So additional and perhaps final**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 comments on this subject because we are about**  

### 2 **to go to lunch. Okay, I think we have done** 

### 3 **it, then.** 

### 4 **It is now ten minutes after 12:00** 

### 5 **-- one additional. Yes, Bill, please.** 

### 6 **MR. SCHINDLER: Yes, this is Bill** 

### 7 **again. I mean I certainly understand we don't** 

### 8 **want crazy things happening or gaming or** 

### 9 **whatever. I mean I very much agree with Jon** 

### 10 **on that issue.** 

### 11 **So unless there is some way to** 

### 12 **guarantee that the gaming or this proprietary** 

### 13 **action isn't going on, then yes, it would make** 

### 14 **sense to use someone else's Blu-ray player. I** 

### 15 **am just talking about the folks that are doing** 

### 16 **the test. They wanted to use their own** 

### 17 **because they knew their own and they knew it** 

### 18 **was a good unit and it was calibrated.** 

### 19 **Well Jon suggests that you could** 

### 20 **take some other unit and calibrate it. Maybe** 

### 21 **that is the workaround.** 

### 22 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, I appreciate your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 concern. I think that makes certainly a lot**  

### 2 **of sense. So thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, let's go to** 

### 4 **lunch. It is 12:10. We will resume here in** 

### 5 **this room in an hour at 1:10.** 

### 6 **(Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m., a lunch** 

### 7 **recess was taken.)** 

### 8 **9 10**  **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  

### 2 **(1:16 p.m.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Welcome back,** 

### 4 **everyone. A few individuals are new that have** 

### 5 **joined as we introduced ourselves this** 

### 6 **morning. Do you want to introduce yourself,** 

### 7 **please?** 

### 8 **MR. BELT: Sure. Bill Belt from** 

### 9 **Consumer Electronics Association.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Anybody** 

### 11 **else that didn't get a chance? Okay, then we** 

### 12 **are going to proceed where we left off and we** 

### 13 **are hearing from Kurt.** 

### 14 **MR. KLINKE: Yes. So again, my** 

### 15 **name is Kurt Klinke. I am with Navigant** 

### 16 **Consulting. And we are actually going to take** 

### 17 **a slight detour from the original presentation** 

### 18 **to address, I believe, Bill Schindler, it was** 

### 19 **your comment regarding the actual definitions** 

### 20 **of the input cables -- or sorry -- Jon, was** 

### 21 **that you?** 

### 22 **So these are the definitions that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 we would like to use for the input cables.**  

### 2 **For HDMI, an audio-video interface that meets** 

### 3 **the HDMI specification version 1.0. For** 

### 4 **component video, a video display interface** 

### 5 **that meets the specification in CEA-770.3-D.** 

### 6 **For S-video, a video display interface that** 

### 7 **transmits analog video over two channels,** 

### 8 **luminance and color. And finally for** 

### 9 **composite video, a video display interface** 

### 10 **that uses a RCA or Radio Corporation of** 

### 11 **America connection to transmit National** 

### 12 **Television System Committee, NTSC analog** 

### 13 **video.** 

### 14 **MR. FAIRHURST: Very good. This** 

### 15 **is Jon Fairhurst from Sharp. Regarding HDMI,** 

### 16 **it should probably be 1.0 or newer because** 

### 17 **there are many specifications that have been** 

### 18 **released since then. I believe they are all** 

### 19 **compatible with 1.0 but they meet the others.** 

### 20 **For component, that is correct.** 

### 21 **That is the correct CEA standard. For S-video** 

### 22 **-- and I will put this in writing in my**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 comments so that people don't have to notate**  

### 2 **them exactly but there is IEC 60933-5 that** 

### 3 **happens to specify S-video. So that will be** 

### 4 **more specific.** 

### 5 **And regarding the composite video,** 

### 6 **yes, it doesn't actually transmit the NTSC** 

### 7 **analog video and that kind of implies a** 

### 8 **transmitter like a broadcast station. But** 

### 9 **there is the SMPTE 170M is the standard for** 

### 10 **composite in the U.S. And that reminded me** 

### 11 **that there is also ITU BT.470.6. And once** 

### 12 **again, I will put these in writing. And that** 

### 13 **is for the PAL analog video. And that does** 

### 14 **raise the issue of 50 and 60 hertz. So** 

### 15 **overall, one would want to specify the** 

### 16 **preference for 60 and if not possible, then to** 

### 17 **use 50 hertz as the alternative.** 

### 18 **And I would propose that this** 

### 19 **hierarchy would come first. So first** 

### 20 **instance, does it have HDMI? Yes, then use** 

### 21 **HDMI. Then is 60 hertz available, yes or no?** 

### 22 **And you use the correct frequency after that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. KLINKE: One question for you** 

### 3 **as we are talking about different standards** 

### 4 **that define things. In regards to the 50** 

### 5 **versus 60 hertz video signals, similar to** 

### 6 **62301 where it has specific voltage and** 

### 7 **frequency combinations for different areas, is** 

### 8 **there a similar standard that has** 

### 9 **specifications for frequency of the video or** 

### 10 **is that just more of an ad hoc, depending on** 

### 11 **where you are?** 

### 12 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, I think it is** 

### 13 **depending on where you are. But for DOE's** 

### 14 **situation, I would say simply state that 60 is** 

### 15 **the preference and that is mainly for the U.S.** 

### 16 **and if that is not available, then to use 50** 

### 17 **and that would be a very simple way to solve** 

### 18 **it.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments on** 

### 20 **these definitions?** 

### 21 **MR. KLINKE: All right, now we** 

### 22 **will be moving back to the original**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 presentation. So now we would like to move on**  

### 2 **to changes proposed for the measurement** 

### 3 **equipment accuracy requirements.** 

### 4 **In a NOPR, DOE proposed the** 

### 5 **following accuracy requirements for light** 

### 6 **measurement devices or I may refer to them as** 

### 7 **LMDs from here on out. An accuracy of plus or** 

### 8 **minus 2 percent, plus or minus 2 digits, a** 

### 9 **repeatability of plus or minus 0.4 percent,** 

### 10 **plus or minus 2 digits, as well as an** 

### 11 **acceptance angle of 3 degrees or less.** 

### 12 **Some stakeholders requested** 

### 13 **clarification of how to calculate the required** 

### 14 **accuracy, specifically how to calculate the** 

### 15 **plus or minus two digits portion of the** 

### 16 **specification. In the SNOPR, DOE has provided** 

### 17 **two examples of how to calculate LMD accuracy,** 

### 18 **one of which is recreated below.** 

### 19 **In this case, an LMD is displaying** 

### 20 **a value of 300 candelas per meter squared. In** 

### 21 **this case, or in all cases, calculating** 

### 22 **accuracy requires two steps. First we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 multiply the displayed value by 2 percent,**  

### 2 **giving plus or minus 6 candelas per meter** 

### 3 **squared.** 

### 4 **Secondly, since the display shows** 

### 5 **300 candelas per meter squared, we can see** 

### 6 **that the resolution is at 1 candela per meter** 

### 7 **squared. We then multiply this resolution by** 

### 8 **2, coming from the 2 digits portion of the** 

### 9 **accuracy requirements to get plus or minus 2** 

### 10 **candelas per meter squared.** 

### 11 **The two values are then added** 

### 12 **together to get a total required accuracy of** 

### 13 **plus or minus 8 candelas per meter squared for** 

### 14 **displayed value of 300.** 

### 15 **Other stakeholders requested** 

### 16 **clarification to what kind of LMDs these** 

### 17 **requirements apply. As such, in the SNOPR DOE** 

### 18 **has clarified that LMD requirements cover both** 

### 19 **illuminance and luminance measurement devices.** 

### 20 **DOE has also removed the repeatability** 

### 21 **requirement as it is not appropriate for all** 

### 22 **LMDs and has clarified that the acceptance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 angle requirement applies only to luminance**  

### 2 **measurement devices. And in this case, that** 

### 3 **is for both contact and non-contact** 

### 4 **measurement devices.** 

### 5 **At this time, DOE seeks comment** 

### 6 **from interested parties on the clarification** 

### 7 **of the LMD accuracy requirements and the** 

### 8 **removal of the LMD repeatability requirement.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe you could** 

### 10 **just go to the preceding slide, please, as a** 

### 11 **cue. Comments? Yes, Jon.** 

### 12 **MR. FAIRHURST: Jon Fairhurst from** 

### 13 **Sharp. The way it is written in SNOPR right** 

### 14 **now 3.1.3 might be a bit confusing in that it** 

### 15 **says luminance meters shall also have an** 

### 16 **acceptance angle of 3 degrees or less. And** 

### 17 **the following statement is this specification** 

### 18 **covers all types of luminance meters, both** 

### 19 **contact and non-contact, as well as** 

### 20 **illuminance meters, which makes it confusing.** 

### 21 **It makes it sound as if the 3 degrees applies** 

### 22 **to the illuminance meters as well, which it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 clearly shouldn't. And in fact I wonder if**  

### 2 **the 3 degrees or less is appropriate for** 

### 3 **contact meter.** 

### 4 **I think it very appropriate for** 

### 5 **non-contact where you are essentially shooting** 

### 6 **a beam at the screen but for a contact meter,** 

### 7 **it is more about the contact patch than the** 

### 8 **angle.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Anthony.** 

### 10 **MR. ROTOLO: We, in one of the** 

### 11 **contact meters that we have used, we saw that** 

### 12 **it had a specification that it had an** 

### 13 **acceptance angel of 1 percent or less, I** 

### 14 **believe it was. So we thought that it would** 

### 15 **still be appropriate that it was far under the** 

### 16 **3 percent but it still met that requirement.** 

### 17 **I would assume that in cases of all contact** 

### 18 **meters, they would be under that 3 percent** 

### 19 **acceptance angle.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 21 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, I am not sure** 

### 22 **that contact meters always use an acceptance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 angle that is so narrow. If you back up and**  

### 2 **you record a distance, you would have a 3** 

### 3 **degree angle on a non-contact meter. That can** 

### 4 **be a sizeable patch and cover a number of** 

### 5 **pixels. If you are literally right on top of** 

### 6 **the screen with a three degree acceptance** 

### 7 **angle, you might be reading a half a pixel or** 

### 8 **something like this. So it seems** 

### 9 **inappropriate for contact meter. Because it** 

### 10 **is really, the end goal is to cover an** 

### 11 **appropriate amount of the screen, not so much** 

### 12 **that you are getting into the black bar areas** 

### 13 **and so forth, and not so little that you are** 

### 14 **seeing only a single pixel that might be** 

### 15 **anomalous.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, good. Other** 

### 17 **comments on light measurement devices? Okay.** 

### 18 **MR. KLINKE: All right, we would** 

### 19 **now like to move on to some proposed changes** 

### 20 **that we have made in standby mode testing.** 

### 21 **In the NOPR, DOE proposed to test** 

### 22 **standby-active, high mode and incorporated by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 reference CEA's test procedure for download**  

### 2 **acquisition mode, or in this case I may refer** 

### 3 **to it as DAM.** 

### 4 **Following the NOPR, DOE attempted** 

### 5 **to provide clarification for the CEA DAM test** 

### 6 **procedure. Based on this research, DOE** 

### 7 **determined that the DAM test procedure was not** 

### 8 **appropriate for testing standby-active, high** 

### 9 **mode for a number of reasons. First, the test** 

### 10 **was originally designed to test hospitality** 

### 11 **TVs, which as DOE understands it, represent a** 

### 12 **very small percentage of the total TVs market.** 

### 13 **Secondly, the test is not designed for the** 

### 14 **networks most commonly used by network-enabled** 

### 15 **TVs today, such as Wi-Fi and Ethernet.** 

### 16 **The test would also require that** 

### 17 **manufacturers either provide specific** 

### 18 **workloads and equipment in order to perform** 

### 19 **the testing or that manufacturers participate** 

### 20 **actively in testing. In addition, the types** 

### 21 **of workloads may vary significantly, which** 

### 22 **could significantly alter the power**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 consumption of the TV, based on the workload**  

### 2 **used during the test.** 

### 3 **Finally, the test provides two** 

### 4 **possible approaches for measuring power** 

### 5 **consumption: the practical and the** 

### 6 **theoretical.** 

### 7 **The practical approach requires** 

### 8 **knowing the amount of time a TV spends in this** 

### 9 **download acquisition mode per day and then you** 

### 10 **test the power measurement in download** 

### 11 **acquisition mode and then apply that to the** 

### 12 **certain number of hours. The data for the** 

### 13 **amount of time a TV spends in DAM per day is** 

### 14 **not available to the public. The theoretical** 

### 15 **approach then requires that the power** 

### 16 **consumption of a TV be measured for an entire** 

### 17 **24 hours so that any power -- just to be able** 

### 18 **to model the power consumption in DAM over a** 

### 19 **full day, which would significantly increase** 

### 20 **test burden.** 

### 21 **DOE was unable to find any other** 

### 22 **test procedure that could accurately test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 standby-active, high mode. So as such, DOE**  

### 2 **has proposed to remove the standby-active,** 

### 3 **high mode test in the SNOPR.** 

### 4 **At this time, DOE requests comment** 

### 5 **from interested parties on the removal of the** 

### 6 **standby-active high mode test while still** 

### 7 **maintaining a definition for that mode.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 9 **MR. FAIRHURST: I support removing** 

### 10 **the standby-active, high test for exactly the** 

### 11 **reasons stated here. And similarly, on the** 

### 12 **specification teams both for IEC and CEA, I am** 

### 13 **going to recommend that we remove those test** 

### 14 **procedures from the normative part and put** 

### 15 **them in an informative annex, so that it would** 

### 16 **be available for third parties if they are** 

### 17 **interested in making the test but it is not a** 

### 18 **normative part of the public's standards** 

### 19 **either.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 21 **Additional comments here? Oh,** 

### 22 **yes, Bill.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 MR. SCHINDLER: Hi, this is Bill**  

### 2 **Schindler. We are also in support for the** 

### 3 **same reasons of removing the DAM procedure** 

### 4 **from the DOE. But my understanding and just** 

### 5 **to make sure that I understand it correctly,** 

### 6 **other regulators like ENERGY STAR, for** 

### 7 **example, they can have a DAM test but they** 

### 8 **will have to provide the procedure for it.** 

### 9 **And that is just -- am I roughly paraphrasing** 

### 10 **correctly?** 

### 11 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, so once -- if and** 

### 12 **when DOE finalizes its test procedure, it gets** 

### 13 **codified in the Code of Federal Regulations** 

### 14 **and the manufacturers must use the test when** 

### 15 **making representations of the energy** 

### 16 **consumption of a television, if there is an** 

### 17 **entity who wants to provide additional testing** 

### 18 **or requirements that are outside the scope of** 

### 19 **DOE's test procedure, that would be their** 

### 20 **choice to do so. But when making a** 

### 21 **representation of any output from the DOE test** 

### 22 **procedure, an entity would have to use the DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 test procedure in order to make that**  

### 2 **representation.** 

### 3 **MR. SCHINDLER: Thank you.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Bijit.** 

### 5 **MR. KUNDU: Bijit Kundu with** 

### 6 **Energy Solutions. Just to clarify, just** 

### 7 **because the standby-active, high mode will be** 

### 8 **defined in -- if the standby-active, high mode** 

### 9 **is defined in a final test procedure, that** 

### 10 **does not mean it is in the scope. Is that** 

### 11 **correct? Because it is not an output of the** 

### 12 **test procedure.** 

### 13 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, I think that** 

### 14 **would be accurate to say that we are defining** 

### 15 **it but we are not providing a test for it.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Jeremy.** 

### 17 **Those last two comments were from Jeremy.** 

### 18 **Additional comments here? Okay.** 

### 19 **Yes, Bill?** 

### 20 **MR. SCHINDLER: Maybe this is the** 

### 21 **time because I don't know that we will cover** 

### 22 **it otherwise, California requires a power**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 factor measurement and it is not defined**  

### 2 **exactly how to do it in the DOE procedure. At** 

### 3 **least, I didn't see it. In California they** 

### 4 **have to do it over ten minutes averaging it.** 

### 5 **It is not just a single measurement. There is** 

### 6 **a procedure involved. And I don't believe** 

### 7 **there is any procedure for the power factor in** 

### 8 **the DOE test. Is that something that should** 

### 9 **be addressed or is California just going to do** 

### 10 **their own thing?** 

### 11 **MR. DOMMU: Well the DOE test does** 

### 12 **have an output for the power factor as part of** 

### 13 **the test. Do you feel like there is not** 

### 14 **enough information in order to output that** 

### 15 **within the test procedure?** 

### 16 **MR. SCHINDLER: Perhaps. The** 

### 17 **power factor will vary upon the load. And for** 

### 18 **example, in Canada, I know we are not in** 

### 19 **Canada, but in Canada they put in the three** 

### 20 **bar test pattern and it is a simple pattern** 

### 21 **and they measure the power factor. Done.** 

### 22 **That's it. California requires -- I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 have it in the top of my head but is about a**  

### 2 **ten-minute multiple through the IEC test loop.** 

### 3 **I think you are running the IEC test loop for** 

### 4 **ten minutes and you are averaging it over that** 

### 5 **period of time. You have to measure it once** 

### 6 **every minute. I think that is what it was.** 

### 7 **It was like ten measurements once every** 

### 8 **minute.** 

### 9 **The issue we have there is** 

### 10 **repeatability. If the technician has got a** 

### 11 **stopwatch, you know the scenes are changing on** 

### 12 **that tape. They are going left and right, you** 

### 13 **know, into bright and dim. And so your power** 

### 14 **factor could potentially also be varying. And** 

### 15 **one technician might be, you know his** 

### 16 **stopwatch might be hitting these numbers on** 

### 17 **bright settings and someone on dim settings.** 

### 18 **Whereas, we would feel that it would be** 

### 19 **simpler and more accurate and repeatable just** 

### 20 **to put up the three-bar pattern and shoot it** 

### 21 **one time. That's it. It is not that critical** 

### 22 **of a number, quite frankly, and we would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 prefer to see something simple like that be**  

### 2 **stated for the power factor.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 4 **Yes, Charlie?** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, I think we** 

### 6 **have done a little bit of research on this,** 

### 7 **too, and I would agree with Bill. I think we** 

### 8 **get an accurate enough measurement of a good** 

### 9 **power factor versus a not-so-good power factor** 

### 10 **with a three-bar test. And I think** 

### 11 **repeatability is an issue when you are trying** 

### 12 **to actively or periodically measure something** 

### 13 **that is going by and changing at that kind of** 

### 14 **a rate. So it might be helpful if DOE were** 

### 15 **just to specify when or how that is taken and** 

### 16 **that it be in very simple terms, similar to** 

### 17 **what Canada is doing, I think. We would** 

### 18 **support that.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jon.** 

### 20 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, and I also** 

### 21 **support the two previous statements. It** 

### 22 **should be a simple measurement, not timed with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 the ten-minute test loop.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thanks.** 

### 3 **Bill?** 

### 4 **MR. SCHINDLER: And I believe that** 

### 5 **Canada says it is going to be the standard** 

### 6 **default mode and I think the ABC, I believe it** 

### 7 **is disabled but you might want to decide** 

### 8 **whether you leave the ABC just in its default** 

### 9 **state, however it is that you are going to** 

### 10 **perhaps consider that. You would want to** 

### 11 **consider both the mode and the ABC, whether it** 

### 12 **is enabled or disabled.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. KLINKE: Okay, great.** 

### 15 **For the NOPR, DOE considered** 

### 16 **including a test for standby-active, low mode,** 

### 17 **but ultimately did not. However, the ENERGY** 

### 18 **STAR version 6.0 TV's test method published in** 

### 19 **September of 2012 does include a test for** 

### 20 **standby-active, low mode. In addition, DOE** 

### 21 **believes that this mode is more representative** 

### 22 **of normal operation for network-enabled TVs**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 than a standby-active, high mode.**  

### 2 **As such, in this SNOPR, DOE has** 

### 3 **proposed to include the standby-active, low** 

### 4 **mode test from the ENERGY STAR version 6.0** 

### 5 **test method and to require that all network** 

### 6 **enabled TVs be tested in standby-active** 

### 7 **active, low mode rather than standby-passive.** 

### 8 **In addition, as part of the** 

### 9 **standby-active, low mode tests, DOE has also** 

### 10 **proposed to use the same network connection** 

### 11 **hierarchy as again the ENERGY STAR version 6.0** 

### 12 **TV specification and test procedure.** 

### 13 **Also, the TV shall be connected** 

### 14 **only to a local area network or LAN, to ensure** 

### 15 **that the connection is on but not actively** 

### 16 **transferring data. And we have also included** 

### 17 **here the network connection hierarchy from the** 

### 18 **ENERGY STAR version 6.0 test procedure, which** 

### 19 **includes Wi-Fi at the top, followed by** 

### 20 **Ethernet, coax, RJ-11, and then other.** 

### 21 **At this time, DOE requests comment** 

### 22 **from interested parties on the addition of a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 standby-active, low mode power measurement**  

### 2 **test. DOE also requests comments on the** 

### 3 **proposed network hierarchy.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon?** 

### 5 **MR. FAIRHURST: This is Jon** 

### 6 **Fairhurst from Sharp.** 

### 7 **The standby-active, low definition** 

### 8 **is that you can turn the television on from an** 

### 9 **external source. So it is not clear that that** 

### 10 **is exactly what we are testing. And it might** 

### 11 **be just fine in that you connect the network** 

### 12 **and enable it, but that doesn't necessarily** 

### 13 **mean that you can turn it on from an external** 

### 14 **source. So what we are essentially doing is** 

### 15 **testing standby with the network-enabled. So** 

### 16 **maybe that is not formally standby-active,** 

### 17 **low, as defined by IEC and so forth. It is** 

### 18 **more of a standby with network connected.** 

### 19 **I'm not sure of the right way to** 

### 20 **resolve this. However, there is the -- I** 

### 21 **guess on one hand you would say if you are** 

### 22 **really going to test in standby active low you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 have to test that you can turn the TV on and**  

### 2 **off from an external source, configure it to** 

### 3 **do that and so forth, which could be -- but** 

### 4 **that might not be really what you are looking** 

### 5 **for. I think what is typically going to** 

### 6 **happen in the television world is the consumer** 

### 7 **brings home the television, connects the** 

### 8 **network because they want to watch some IP** 

### 9 **service. And they connect it, they enable the** 

### 10 **network, they view the TV, then they hit the** 

### 11 **off button on the remote. It goes into** 

### 12 **standby and they go to sleep. And that is, I** 

### 13 **think, the mode that you want to test it in,** 

### 14 **which is the typical standby when the** 

### 15 **television happens to have the network** 

### 16 **connected.** 

### 17 **So I think you are probably doing** 

### 18 **exactly the right thing but it is not formally** 

### 19 **standby-active low.** 

### 20 **MR. DOMMU: So are you suggesting** 

### 21 **that we change the definition, change the test** 

### 22 **or neither?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 MR. FAIRHURST: I would recommend**  

### 2 **maybe it is a new word that needs to be like** 

### 3 **standby-network connected or something like** 

### 4 **that. Standby-active, low has been defined** 

### 5 **for a number of years I know before I started** 

### 6 **working on things on this in 2005, standby** 

### 7 **active, low has been defined by IEC. So I** 

### 8 **would recommend not changing the definition of** 

### 9 **standby-active, low. And maybe it is okay,** 

### 10 **maybe I am just picking a nit here, but maybe** 

### 11 **a different name like standby-network enabled** 

### 12 **would be more appropriate.** 

### 13 **MR. DOMMU: Okay, thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 15 **Charlie?** 

### 16 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 17 **We have one concern. One of the folks that** 

### 18 **does a lot of lab testing for us tested one** 

### 19 **television where there was actually more than** 

### 20 **one standby mode, as Jon described it, and** 

### 21 **when you were in the less than one watt** 

### 22 **standby mode, essentially I will describe it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 as, and you turned the television on, it would**  

### 2 **bring up a menu and it would say you are not** 

### 3 **operating in the quick start mode, would you** 

### 4 **like to operate in the quick start mode. And** 

### 5 **if you answer yes to that question and the** 

### 6 **television shifts into that mode, it now** 

### 7 **consumes 24 watts in standby.** 

### 8 **And so I am trying to understand** 

### 9 **how it is that we can capture that** 

### 10 **circumstance in a standby mode because the** 

### 11 **difference there, there was a large** 

### 12 **difference. I think it was 30 times more** 

### 13 **power consumption -- or no less than that --** 

### 14 **20 times more consumption in the quick start** 

### 15 **mode.** 

### 16 **And so I think you need to somehow** 

### 17 **make sure that that television gets tested in** 

### 18 **the most consumptive of the standby modes or** 

### 19 **off mode that it can be in when there is more** 

### 20 **than one. And there is obviously at least one** 

### 21 **case here where we have tested it and it does** 

### 22 **do that. And if it were the difference**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 between a half a watt and 1.5 watts or**  

### 2 **something like that, I don't know that I would** 

### 3 **worry too much about it. But when you go from** 

### 4 **something like 0.7 to 24 watts, that is of** 

### 5 **concern to us.** 

### 6 **MR. DOMMU: Could you comment at** 

### 7 **all on the performance of that TV? Like by** 

### 8 **putting it in quick start mode, what exactly** 

### 9 **does that mean compared to not being in quick** 

### 10 **start mode?** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Everything -- if** 

### 12 **you didn't put it in quick start mode, it** 

### 13 **would take somewhere between 20 and 30 seconds** 

### 14 **before the screen came up to full brightness,** 

### 15 **you had your menu options on the screen and** 

### 16 **everything was essentially functional and you** 

### 17 **could actually do something with the remote** 

### 18 **and change something on the screen. If you** 

### 19 **put it in quick start mode, all of that would** 

### 20 **happen in less than five seconds.** 

### 21 **MR. DOMMU: So it sounds like** 

### 22 **there is likely to be some consumer utility of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 having it in quick start mode.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: The reason, I think** 

### 3 **the way the language in the option as** 

### 4 **presented to the consumer sort of made it a** 

### 5 **very attractive thing to want to do. You** 

### 6 **would sit there as a consumer thinking well of** 

### 7 **course I want quick start. It is like well of** 

### 8 **course I want a racing car here to do away** 

### 9 **with this Yugo here that I have got.** 

### 10 **So anyway, I think it is of some** 

### 11 **concern to us that there could be more than** 

### 12 **one standby mode or low power mode, sleep** 

### 13 **mode, whatever you want to call it and wake up** 

### 14 **time, which is also a concern in the set-top** 

### 15 **box world, where we are working also, they are** 

### 16 **trying to get the wake up time as quick as** 

### 17 **possible but right now it is very difficult,** 

### 18 **sometimes to get full functionality in less** 

### 19 **than 30 seconds if you are staring from say** 

### 20 **something less than five watts.** 

### 21 **So it ships. It appears to ship** 

### 22 **in the 0.7 watt mode and then this menu thing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 comes up and says do you want to be in the**  

### 2 **quick start mode. Of course you do. I want** 

### 3 **it now. So this is -- and from then on, it is** 

### 4 **24 watts in standby.** 

### 5 **We think this is kind of a problem** 

### 6 **and the test procedure needs to somehow at** 

### 7 **least reveal what this is or the existence of** 

### 8 **it and test it or maybe you should mandate** 

### 9 **that it be tested in the highest consumption** 

### 10 **standby mode or whatever. But somehow we** 

### 11 **think it needs to be accounted for in the test** 

### 12 **procedure.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Anthony.** 

### 14 **MR. ROTOLO: So I can only kind of** 

### 15 **shed light on how the current test procedure** 

### 16 **would address this. And by the description,** 

### 17 **it sounds like it would fall under a special** 

### 18 **function as defined by we are currently** 

### 19 **proposing to reference IEC 60287 for that.** 

### 20 **And for such a function, you would test it in** 

### 21 **its default configuration. So if by default,** 

### 22 **like you said, it was not enabled, therefore,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 we would see it as 0.7 watts, whereas if a**  

### 2 **customer were to enable it, it would be in** 

### 3 **like you said, 24 watts. So that is how the** 

### 4 **current procedure would address that.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: That's what we are** 

### 6 **afraid of. Because as shipped, it appears to** 

### 7 **ship at 0.7 but the menu, the way the menu is** 

### 8 **worded the consumer doesn't know that they are** 

### 9 **about to select the difference between 0.7** 

### 10 **watts and 24 watts, 24/7.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff Howell, Jeff** 

### 12 **do you have a question or a comment?** 

### 13 **MR. HOWELL: Yes, so we agree with** 

### 14 **Jon's comments. I think the definition the** 

### 15 **DOE uses for standby-active, low is correct** 

### 16 **but the test description, it could be** 

### 17 **measuring the two different things that Jon** 

### 18 **points out. And you know there isn't any** 

### 19 **interest by regulators in knowing both. I** 

### 20 **mean, you could have a TV that is connected to** 

### 21 **a network and then when you hit the off** 

### 22 **button, it goes to standby-passive. Or it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 could be in some artificially high mode due to**  

### 2 **poor design or quick start.** 

### 3 **So and I guess the other comment** 

### 4 **we would have, I think the current test for** 

### 5 **this is it is 40 minute test, basically 30** 

### 6 **minutes stabilization and you do the** 

### 7 **measurement over the last 10. So we** 

### 8 **questioned why do we really need 30 minutes.** 

### 9 **That is a long time for a standby test like** 

### 10 **this. And it would seem like, you know, I** 

### 11 **don't know if a ten-minute test stabilization** 

### 12 **would be more appropriate.** 

### 13 **Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Jon?** 

### 15 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, I would agree** 

### 16 **with Jeff that the 30-minute stabilization** 

### 17 **seems longer than necessary. I don't know if** 

### 18 **DOE had any data that showed that 30 minutes** 

### 19 **was needed but it does add to the cost and** 

### 20 **complexity of the test if it is that long. I** 

### 21 **would think that ten minutes would be** 

### 22 **adequate.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 And then in response to Charlie**  

### 2 **brought up the quick start, I don't know if** 

### 3 **that was going to be part of another** 

### 4 **discussion with the special functions and so** 

### 5 **forth. I guess we already discussed special** 

### 6 **functions as part of the definitions part.** 

### 7 **So the difference between an** 

### 8 **additional function, a special function, an** 

### 9 **additional function might be something like a** 

### 10 **set-top box, a toaster, helicopter, something** 

### 11 **connected to the TV that is not normally used** 

### 12 **for typical television viewing. So you would** 

### 13 **turn those off by default. But the special** 

### 14 **functions are things like super bass boost, or** 

### 15 **beautiful picture, or something like this that** 

### 16 **directly has to do with the viewing of the** 

### 17 **television. And appropriately so, DOE has** 

### 18 **said if it is on by default, leave it on by** 

### 19 **default.** 

### 20 **But there is a question area and I** 

### 21 **think Charlie raises this indirectly, which is** 

### 22 **what if when you turn on the TV there is a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 user prompt? So in the set-up menu, the**  

### 2 **initial set-up menu, there is a user prompt** 

### 3 **that says do you want super bass boost or do** 

### 4 **you want quick start mode. And I think the** 

### 5 **correct way to model what the consumer will do** 

### 6 **is to enable all of those.** 

### 7 **So in other words, it is not just** 

### 8 **if it is on by default. If it is on by** 

### 9 **default or presented in a user prompt during** 

### 10 **the initial setup menu, then you would enable** 

### 11 **it.** 

### 12 **And for the manufacturers, that** 

### 13 **clears up a gray area because it is not clear** 

### 14 **if you are prompted for something is it on or** 

### 15 **off by default. And so I think the** 

### 16 **manufacturer's interest is we would like it** 

### 17 **defined either on or off if you are prompted** 

### 18 **at the setup menu.** 

### 19 **And frankly, I think it would** 

### 20 **address Charlie's concern is if you are** 

### 21 **prompted in the setup menu for quick start or** 

### 22 **any other special function, then enable it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 If it is not presented to the user, then leave**  

### 2 **it in the default.** 

### 3 **MR. STEPHENS: That sounds like a** 

### 4 **reasonable proposal. I think if you did that,** 

### 5 **it would ease our minds a lot.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charlie.** 

### 7 **And now to Jeremy.** 

### 8 **MR. DOMMU: One question I have on** 

### 9 **that and I am just trying to think of** 

### 10 **potential hypotheticals would be what happens** 

### 11 **if that forced menu popped up and said do you** 

### 12 **want super energy efficient mode. And by** 

### 13 **enabling that, you now are actually going from** 

### 14 **a mode that is more power consumptive to a** 

### 15 **mode that is less so. Would you enable or you** 

### 16 **would disable that? I mean it could go both** 

### 17 **ways. A special function could increase or** 

### 18 **decrease power consumption.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 20 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, I think if** 

### 21 **you are offering the consumer to turn** 

### 22 **something on, in general they will. But yes,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 there may be some gray areas like that. And**  

### 2 **regardless, currently that could still happen** 

### 3 **and so you would hit the setup menu and you** 

### 4 **would say, oh no, what do I do.** 

### 5 **So I think maybe you could say if** 

### 6 **it is presented in the setup menu that you** 

### 7 **would choose the most energy consumptive but** 

### 8 **then you have got to test multiple situations.** 

### 9 **So, I think typically I have seen it where** 

### 10 **you are turning something additional and I** 

### 11 **haven't seen the thing where you are prompted** 

### 12 **to turn stuff off.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: Well and then I** 

### 15 **would come back and say okay, if we go with** 

### 16 **Jon's suggestion about if it is prompted in** 

### 17 **the setup menu, what if the consumer is** 

### 18 **prompted with do we want to go in the energy** 

### 19 **conserving mode and then two bars later is do** 

### 20 **you want to go in the quick start mode? I** 

### 21 **mean, okay? So which do you do?** 

### 22 **You know, I guess it depends on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 what your definition of what eco mode is or**  

### 2 **what energy conservation mode is. Is that an** 

### 3 **active mode or is that in standby? That** 

### 4 **depends on who defines what that mode is,** 

### 5 **which could be different with every** 

### 6 **manufacturer.** 

### 7 **The other things is that it is our** 

### 8 **understanding, generally, that performance** 

### 9 **costs energy, whether it be quick or bright,** 

### 10 **or loud or whatever it is, vivid, however you** 

### 11 **define performance, it generally costs more** 

### 12 **energy to get more performance.** 

### 13 **And so I think a lot of what** 

### 14 **consumers are often prompted for mostly** 

### 15 **because manufacturers are concerned about** 

### 16 **consumers' perception of performance is** 

### 17 **performance. I mean do you want this** 

### 18 **performance mode? And they will generally** 

### 19 **cost some energy, I think.** 

### 20 **If it is there and consumers are** 

### 21 **aware that they can change something, that** 

### 22 **doesn't necessarily mean that they will change**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 it or that it is energy using or not. It is**  

### 2 **just different. But if you are prompted with** 

### 3 **something like do you want quick start, I mean** 

### 4 **to me that is performance and we are seeing** 

### 5 **this in a lot of other devices, you know, how** 

### 6 **fast can it wake up. And it generally has to** 

### 7 **consume more power if you want it to wake up** 

### 8 **faster.** 

### 9 **And so there are certain features,** 

### 10 **I think, that are going to be an issue. And** 

### 11 **again, I would not be concerned about this if** 

### 12 **it was the difference between one or two** 

### 13 **watts, you know. But it is not. It is two** 

### 14 **orders of magnitude, in some cases I swear,** 

### 15 **depending on the device we are talking about.** 

### 16 **So anyway, I think we need to sort** 

### 17 **through it because the differences are so big.** 

### 18 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, I would just --** 

### 19 **let's -- you know we will certainly give this** 

### 20 **some thought as we are moving forward with the** 

### 21 **rulemaking. I would imagine that you guys** 

### 22 **will submit some written comments as well and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 I would encourage you in your written comments**  

### 2 **to give it some critical thought of what** 

### 3 **language should exactly be used to kind of get** 

### 4 **at where we are going, what you are** 

### 5 **recommending.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 7 **comments? Bill.** 

### 8 **MR. SCHINDLER: Hi, this is Bill** 

### 9 **Schindler.** 

### 10 **If we are talking about the DOE** 

### 11 **also requests comments in the proposed network** 

### 12 **hierarchy, there is five possibilities, Wi-Fi,** 

### 13 **Ethernet, a 75 ohm coax, the RJ-11 and the** 

### 14 **other. I totally agree with the Wi-Fi and the** 

### 15 **Ethernet and I think that is the whole push in** 

### 16 **the market. Obviously, the smart TV is trying** 

### 17 **to get connected to the Ethernet either** 

### 18 **wirelessly -- to the worldwide web either** 

### 19 **through the Ethernet or the Wi-Fi. That is** 

### 20 **great. And ENERGY STAR TVs version 6 goes** 

### 21 **through quite a bit of detail of how to set** 

### 22 **that up with Wi-Fi and Ethernet. I know**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 because DOE probably wrote the procedure. It**  

### 2 **is about a page or so.** 

### 3 **I don't see any procedure in the** 

### 4 **DOE document today on anything, especially the** 

### 5 **75 ohm coax and the RJ-11 and other. My** 

### 6 **recommendation is just limit it to the Wi-Fi** 

### 7 **and the Ethernet because that is containable.** 

### 8 **It is 99.9 percent of the market. I don't** 

### 9 **know any TVs that connect to the internet** 

### 10 **through those other things.** 

### 11 **The 75 ohm coax cable is really a** 

### 12 **connection for hospitality TVs. They go** 

### 13 **through the coax in the hotel room to get to** 

### 14 **the server. A lot of those are starting to** 

### 15 **convert to Wi-Fi. And the RJ-11 and the** 

### 16 **other, I don't know what those are at all. So** 

### 17 **think it is just -- it is okay maybe to have** 

### 18 **it on the list because I guess most smart TVs** 

### 19 **are going to have Wi-Fi and Ethernet. Given** 

### 20 **the hierarchy, they are going to just have to** 

### 21 **test Wi-Fi if they have it. And probably you** 

### 22 **will never get down to three, four, and five.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 So maybe it is okay to leave it**  

### 2 **there but I'm not sure why it is there. One** 

### 3 **and two I definitely agree should be there.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 5 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, Jon Fairhurst** 

### 6 **from Sharp.** 

### 7 **I would agree. I think the 75 ohm** 

### 8 **coax cable could be confusing to some because** 

### 9 **you will typically have a 75 ohm coax cable** 

### 10 **there for your antenna but that is really an** 

### 11 **obsolete networking protocol. I think I** 

### 12 **haven't used that in well over ten years or** 

### 13 **so. And so new televisions use this and older** 

### 14 **televisions didn't have networking capability** 

### 15 **anyway.** 

### 16 **RJ-11 is usually for modems and** 

### 17 **that would be unlikely in any modern** 

### 18 **television as well.** 

### 19 **The one nice thing for other is it** 

### 20 **is future-proof because if some future** 

### 21 **networking technology comes along but I don't** 

### 22 **know of any that are likely. So yes, I would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 recommend removing items three and four.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 3 **Have we covered this one? Great.** 

### 4 **MR. KLINKE: In that case, I would** 

### 5 **like to pass things on to Louis. He will be** 

### 6 **going over the energy efficiency metrics.** 

### 7 **MR. DESROCHES: So I will just** 

### 8 **cover very quickly the metrics in the proposed** 

### 9 **SNOPR but just to refresh your memory, in the** 

### 10 **NOPR DOE proposed the following output** 

### 11 **metrics. They included the power consumption** 

### 12 **in the on-mode, standby-active, high mode, the** 

### 13 **standby-passive mode, and the off-mode, as** 

### 14 **well as a luminance ratio. And as we have** 

### 15 **just finished discussing, some of these** 

### 16 **standby tests have changed.** 

### 17 **So DOE is proposing the following** 

### 18 **updates. Remove the standby-active, high mode** 

### 19 **as an output metric and add instead the** 

### 20 **standby-active, low mode. In addition, the** 

### 21 **power factor is now proposed to be an output** 

### 22 **metric of the test procedure.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 The SNOPR, as well as the NOPR did**  

### 2 **require power factor to be measured but it was** 

### 3 **not an output metric in the NOPR. So it has** 

### 4 **been added in the SNOPR.** 

### 5 **DOE also considered an annual** 

### 6 **energy consumption metric in the NOPR. It was** 

### 7 **an appendix to calculate the AEC. As part of** 

### 8 **the SNOPR, DOE is now incorporating the AEC as** 

### 9 **part of the output metrics.** 

### 10 **The annual energy consumption is** 

### 11 **calculated according to this equation, where** 

### 12 **you take the power values in each of the four** 

### 13 **modes, multiplied by an hour waiting, which I** 

### 14 **will get to in a minute, and you multiply by** 

### 15 **365 divided by 1,000 to get an AEC in kilowatt** 

### 16 **hours per year.** 

### 17 **So in the original DOE NOPR, DOE** 

### 18 **considered hourly weightings of 7 hours in the** 

### 19 **on-mode and 17 hours in the standby-passive,** 

### 20 **and 0 in the off-mode. This was based on** 

### 21 **analysis of Nielsen data. However, further** 

### 22 **analysis of the Nielsen data indicates that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 five hours is more typical of an average over**  

### 2 **all televisions; whereas the NOPR considered** 

### 3 **the analysis was mostly on the primary** 

### 4 **television in the home. And so DOE now feels** 

### 5 **that five hours is a better representation of** 

### 6 **all televisions averaged over all potential** 

### 7 **rooms in the home, for example.** 

### 8 **So the new proposed SNOPR hourly** 

### 9 **weightings are 5 hours in the on-mode; 19** 

### 10 **hours in the standby-passive or standby** 

### 11 **active, low mode; whichever one is appropriate** 

### 12 **for a given unit; and 0 hours in the off-mode.** 

### 13 **So just to recap, the SNOPR, the** 

### 14 **output metrics, power consumption: on-mode,** 

### 15 **standby-active, low, standby-passive, and off,** 

### 16 **as well as the calculated luminance ratio, the** 

### 17 **annual energy consumption metric with updated** 

### 18 **hourly weightings and the power factor.** 

### 19 **And so at this time, DOE requests** 

### 20 **comment from interested parties on the** 

### 21 **multiple output metrics, including the annual** 

### 22 **energy consumption metric.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens?**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, we would like** 

### 3 **to strongly suggest that DOE not convert the** 

### 4 **power consumption in watts to annual energy.** 

### 5 **Our own data has shown that annual energy** 

### 6 **depends just like it does in a heat pump or an** 

### 7 **air conditioner where annual energy depends** 

### 8 **highly on location of where the thing is. It** 

### 9 **is the same for televisions. It depends on** 

### 10 **where the television, even though it is where** 

### 11 **it is in the house, typically, and who is** 

### 12 **watching it.** 

### 13 **You are going to be -- the numbers** 

### 14 **you are going to end up with on these** 

### 15 **televisions are going to be very highly** 

### 16 **misleading, potentially. The number that goes** 

### 17 **on it will be wrong in almost every case. It** 

### 18 **will either be too low because the television** 

### 19 **we are talking about is going in the main** 

### 20 **living space where the family is and where it** 

### 21 **gets watched for seven hours a day or it is** 

### 22 **wrong because it is in somebody's bedroom who**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 watches it on average one hour a day, or in**  

### 2 **some households where it is watched one hour a** 

### 3 **week.** 

### 4 **So the problem is, when you are** 

### 5 **taking something like this and trying to come** 

### 6 **up with an annual number, you are going to be** 

### 7 **wrong in every case. And you are going to be** 

### 8 **misleading, therefore, every time you label** 

### 9 **it.** 

### 10 **We would suggest that you come up** 

### 11 **with a watt metric and leave it at that. And** 

### 12 **as things change and as people know where they** 

### 13 **are going to put it, they at least know that** 

### 14 **okay, it matters because we are going to watch** 

### 15 **this thing a lot or it doesn't matter that** 

### 16 **much because it is going to be in somebody's** 

### 17 **bedroom where it only gets watched an hour** 

### 18 **every couple of days. But I think you are** 

### 19 **going to be very misleading in the marketplace** 

### 20 **if you start putting a number like this on a** 

### 21 **television.** 

### 22 **And I would strongly -- we are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 going to make the same recommendation for air**  

### 2 **handlers for some of the same reasons. But we** 

### 3 **think you are going to come up with a much** 

### 4 **more useful metric if you just publish an on** 

### 5 **mode -- you know, publish the power** 

### 6 **consumption in the modes and leave it at that.** 

### 7 **MR. DOMMU: Okay, so just a couple** 

### 8 **of points that I could get out. I appreciate** 

### 9 **the comment.** 

### 10 **One is there are multiple outputs** 

### 11 **here. So we are requiring that the output of** 

### 12 **the test procedure is the power consumption in** 

### 13 **on-mode and standby mode and off-mode. So** 

### 14 **that is part of this.** 

### 15 **By including the annual energy** 

### 16 **consumption metric what we are doing is once** 

### 17 **this becomes a final test procedure, any** 

### 18 **representation of the annual energy** 

### 19 **consumption would be made using this equation.** 

### 20 **So that helps consistency of reporting the** 

### 21 **annual energy consumption metric.** 

### 22 **Now I know you could argue well**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 does it make sense or not to report the annual**  

### 2 **energy consumption metric of a television but** 

### 3 **at least by putting this in the test** 

### 4 **procedure, what we are achieving is** 

### 5 **consistency. So one person can't claim** 

### 6 **applies -- so one entity could apply usage** 

### 7 **profile, another applies a different usage** 

### 8 **profile and could make claims that the TV has** 

### 9 **various energy consumption over the course of** 

### 10 **a year; whereas, by putting it in here, it** 

### 11 **would help improve consistency of reporting.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: I guess I am not --** 

### 13 **I think you are going to have just as good a** 

### 14 **consistency of reporting if you are reporting** 

### 15 **on-mode watts and standby-passive or -active,** 

### 16 **low watts and off-mode watts. There is** 

### 17 **nothing inconsistent about that. But you are** 

### 18 **literally misleading people. It is like** 

### 19 **putting the annual energy consumption on a** 

### 20 **heat pump, which DOE does not do. And that is** 

### 21 **appropriate that you not do it.** 

### 22 **If I am not mistaken, the statute**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 requires not necessarily a representation of**  

### 2 **annual energy use but also efficiency,** 

### 3 **either/or. And I think efficiency here is** 

### 4 **what you should be reporting consistently not** 

### 5 **annual energy use because like I said, every** 

### 6 **number you put on a television, except by** 

### 7 **accident, is going to be wrong for the** 

### 8 **television that somebody buys because you have** 

### 9 **no idea where they are going to put that and** 

### 10 **how many hours they are going to use it. And** 

### 11 **that may change over time.** 

### 12 **And it has changed over time. And** 

### 13 **Nielsen may not be entirely appropriately** 

### 14 **measuring what they measure. I am sure they** 

### 15 **are getting television viewing. I am not sure** 

### 16 **they are getting all the other functions that** 

### 17 **people use the television for.** 

### 18 **In any case, in all the cases we** 

### 19 **have seen, we think you are going to be** 

### 20 **misleading people by publishing that number.** 

### 21 **We would rather figure it out ourselves, based** 

### 22 **on the watts that we have, based on our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 knowledge of how many hours each TV in the**  

### 2 **house may be used and we will take care of the** 

### 3 **annual energy use number if you just give us** 

### 4 **the means to do that. Because you know, one** 

### 5 **number on a television is just plain** 

### 6 **misleading.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: We have a couple of** 

### 8 **individuals that would like to join us via the** 

### 9 **web. Jeff Howell, you are first.** 

### 10 **MR. HOWELL: Yes, I would only add** 

### 11 **that we are already required to report annual** 

### 12 **energy consumption on the FTC energy guide** 

### 13 **label. And while I agree that that number may** 

### 14 **not be perfect for every TV in use in the** 

### 15 **United States at a particular time, I think it** 

### 16 **is representative of if you are looking at two** 

### 17 **different models of TVs, the numbers are** 

### 18 **representative of which one uses more power** 

### 19 **consumption. Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 21 **Verena, you are next.** 

### 22 **MS. RADULOVIC: Hi, can you hear**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 me okay?**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MS. RADULOVIC: Great. I would** 

### 4 **just echo what Jeff had asked as well. I was** 

### 5 **just curious to see how does this proposed AEC** 

### 6 **compare to what needs to be reported on the** 

### 7 **FTC energy guide label for TVs.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeremy.** 

### 9 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, I don't know the** 

### 10 **exact usage profile that the FTC uses.** 

### 11 **MR. DESROCHES It is five.** 

### 12 **MR. DOMMU: It is five. Okay, so** 

### 13 **then this is consistent with what is currently** 

### 14 **being put on the FTC energy guide label.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Bill.** 

### 16 **Get closer.** 

### 17 **MR. SCHINDLER: It is, except the** 

### 18 **19 standby-passive --** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bill, get the** 

### 20 **microphone on and get it closer to you.** 

### 21 **MR. SCHINDLER: Sorry. This is** 

### 22 **Bill Schindler.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 Yes, the FTC requires 5 hours in**  

### 2 **the on-mode, which is the same with DOE, but** 

### 3 **the 19 hours of standby is only passive** 

### 4 **standby because they don't -- at the time no** 

### 5 **one was measuring this active, low.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jon, do you** 

### 7 **want to add on?** 

### 8 **MR. FAIRHURST: Yes, I was at the** 

### 9 **FTC public meeting when this was debated and** 

### 10 **they chose at that time to do the average** 

### 11 **annual energy use as compared to wattage or** 

### 12 **these other numbers. And there was debate** 

### 13 **about doing that but I think that was settled** 

### 14 **by the FTC. And the FTC did have a second** 

### 15 **comment period most recently. I don't know** 

### 16 **that they -- I believe the comment period has** 

### 17 **closed and they haven't yet responded to that.** 

### 18 **So it seems to me that for what** 

### 19 **the most appropriate thing to report to** 

### 20 **consumers that is really an FTC topic and then** 

### 21 **how to measure is what we are discussing here.** 

### 22 **The last thing I would like to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 mention is that at retail, because consumers**  

### 2 **can see the same measure from television to** 

### 3 **television, whether it is watts or dollars or** 

### 4 **whatever, it does level the playing field, so** 

### 5 **that they can make an educated choice and I** 

### 6 **would hope that the consumer is smart enough** 

### 7 **to know that if they watch TV a lot, well the** 

### 8 **number will be higher. In fact the FTC label** 

### 9 **even says that, that it is just** 

### 10 **representative. And if it is going to go in a** 

### 11 **back bedroom, then your annual energy usage** 

### 12 **will be lower.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bijit.** 

### 14 **MR. KUNDU: Bijit Kundu with** 

### 15 **Energy Solutions. I fully support the FTC** 

### 16 **having labeling on annual energy use. I think** 

### 17 **-- I don't know if this is actually the case** 

### 18 **but you know, you could know that this is** 

### 19 **based on an average of five hours of viewing** 

### 20 **per day. And so in terms of representing and** 

### 21 **that, we are okay with that being on a label** 

### 22 **with the FTC.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 You know, this is not -- annual**  

### 2 **energy consumption isn't a measurement that** 

### 3 **the test procedure does. You know, what the** 

### 4 **test procedure does is measure the different** 

### 5 **modes and this is a calculation.** 

### 6 **So I would think that this annual** 

### 7 **energy consumption value would be more** 

### 8 **appropriate for just the FTC label, rather** 

### 9 **than the actual DOE test procedure.** 

### 10 **MR. DOMMU: Okay, I appreciate the** 

### 11 **comments. I will make one or two additional** 

### 12 **points just to consider as you guys give this** 

### 13 **a little bit more thought.** 

### 14 **So by putting the AEC metric in** 

### 15 **our test procedure, then FTC would have to** 

### 16 **adopt what our AEC is in the test procedure.** 

### 17 **So that helps consistency. If it was out of** 

### 18 **the DOE test procedure, then FTC would then** 

### 19 **have to come up with their own usage profile,** 

### 20 **as I believe it.** 

### 21 **Do you want to?** 

### 22 **MS. PINTO: Yes, this is Francine**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 Pinto. The FTC is required to use our test**  

### 2 **procedure. We do the test procedure. They** 

### 3 **are in charge of the labeling. So if it is** 

### 4 **going to be on a label, they need to have a** 

### 5 **test procedure and ours it the one that they** 

### 6 **have to use.** 

### 7 **MR. DOMMU: So then the other** 

### 8 **thing is if we don't have AEC as part of our** 

### 9 **test procedure, then every entity, whether it** 

### 10 **is a utility rebate program, a state program,** 

### 11 **a voluntary program, FTC would then be, if** 

### 12 **they want to have annual energy consumption as** 

### 13 **part of their metric, then they would be** 

### 14 **responsible for providing the usage profile.** 

### 15 **If it is not part of our test procedure, then** 

### 16 **that is the inconsistency that I was trying to** 

### 17 **get at before.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bill.** 

### 19 **MR. BELT: Thank you. Jeremy,** 

### 20 **what you just said, so let me ask. If the FTC** 

### 21 **had a usage profile, which they do today,** 

### 22 **would other entities be required to use**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 theirs?**  

### 2 **MR. DOMMU: I would have to get** 

### 3 **back to you on that. I don't believe so but I** 

### 4 **don't want to speak on the record until I know** 

### 5 **that.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 8 **We have done a substantial amount of work in** 

### 9 **the television area in recent years. We don't** 

### 10 **use their usage profile, necessarily. We do** 

### 11 **our own research and we find out what the** 

### 12 **actual energy use and energy savings are at** 

### 13 **any given level for any given television. And** 

### 14 **we do that by finding out how many televisions** 

### 15 **there are per household and how many hours** 

### 16 **each one is used. And we actually go and get** 

### 17 **the data to convert it. And it is changing.** 

### 18 **Just in 2007, for instance, we** 

### 19 **looked at how many televisions there are per** 

### 20 **household and there were 2.6. Just this last** 

### 21 **year, we looked at the same thing and it is** 

### 22 **2.3. So things are shifting. And if you want**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 to really start taking all that stuff into**  

### 2 **account, we are really, quite frankly, better** 

### 3 **prepared and in a better position to take** 

### 4 **account of regional numbers than DOE is. That** 

### 5 **is like publishing. You know, DOE also uses** 

### 6 **to -- when they go to source energy, they use** 

### 7 **a national number. It is utterly irrelevant** 

### 8 **in most of our service territories for our** 

### 9 **utilities. And what it has done is it has** 

### 10 **created a lot of confusion where we live** 

### 11 **because that number you are using is not** 

### 12 **relevant for most of the people where we live.** 

### 13 **And so we are not all that pleased** 

### 14 **about that because we have to spend a lot of** 

### 15 **money to un-confuse people and if you publish** 

### 16 **the wrong numbers on this stuff, we are going** 

### 17 **to have to spend a lot of time and energy** 

### 18 **undoing all those numbers and telling people** 

### 19 **what the right numbers are for our region as** 

### 20 **we understand them and as we have measured** 

### 21 **them in the field.** 

### 22 **So it is really not helpful for us**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 for you to put the wrong number on things**  

### 2 **because we have to spend a lot of money and a** 

### 3 **lot of effort to change them for our purposes.** 

### 4 **MR. DOMMU: So do you disapprove** 

### 5 **of the usage profile? Is there a better** 

### 6 **number that you are suggesting?** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: Well we will have a** 

### 8 **usage profile for you, like I said, in about a** 

### 9 **month. We will have some data for you that is** 

### 10 **fairly recent but we also would suggest to you** 

### 11 **that it is changing, which is why we go out** 

### 12 **and measure this stuff pretty regularly to** 

### 13 **catch all those changes. People are not** 

### 14 **watching television in the same way they used** 

### 15 **to or watching content, I guess I should say,** 

### 16 **in the same way they used to. And that is** 

### 17 **shifting and it is shifting fast enough that** 

### 18 **your numbers will be out of date probably** 

### 19 **within five years.** 

### 20 **So we would highly recommend that** 

### 21 **you not put those numbers on there. We think** 

### 22 **the watts that you come up with in the power**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221**  **1 consumption of a television will allow**  

### 2 **consumers to adequately and fairly compare one** 

### 3 **television against another for any given size.** 

### 4 **And you don't need the annual energy** 

### 5 **consumption for a consumer to pick the more** 

### 6 **efficient television.** 

### 7 **But we need to know, we need to** 

### 8 **understand what those numbers are in order to** 

### 9 **do our power planning and understand what** 

### 10 **these things use. And we know how to do that.** 

### 11 **And we will do that, given the tools. And we** 

### 12 **think your test procedure will provide those** 

### 13 **tools. But we would recommend that you stop** 

### 14 **short of misleading folks at that point.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bill.** 

### 16 **MR. BELT: Charlie, what do you do** 

### 17 **with this information you gather? You use it** 

### 18 **internally?** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Oh, it is available** 

### 20 **publicly on our website.** 

### 21 **MR. BELT: But how is it used?** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: We actually look at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 how people consume energy and what devices in**  

### 2 **their homes, lighting, televisions, consumer** 

### 3 **electronics, all the devices that we measure,** 

### 4 **and we use it to understand trends in power** 

### 5 **consumption. We use it to inform our energy** 

### 6 **efficiency programs for how and whether we** 

### 7 **should be providing incentives for the more** 

### 8 **efficient stuff and how big the incentive** 

### 9 **should be.** 

### 10 **And we try to understand when we** 

### 11 **don't have to do that anymore, where the** 

### 12 **market has been moved far enough that we can** 

### 13 **move on and find larger targets for our** 

### 14 **investments. But we use this in a lot of** 

### 15 **different ways.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: final comments on** 

### 17 **all of this? We are moving on.** 

### 18 **MR. DESROCHES: Next up is a** 

### 19 **sampling plan. So to ensure the consistency** 

### 20 **and accuracy of any values that are reported** 

### 21 **as part of the test procedure, DOE proposes** 

### 22 **the following sampling plan.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 A minimum sample size of two TVs**  

### 2 **shall be used in all testing. And any** 

### 3 **represented on-mode power value shall be the** 

### 4 **greater than or equal to the higher of the** 

### 5 **mean of the sample or the upper confidence** 

### 6 **limit divided by 1.05. The upper confidence** 

### 7 **limit is defined by this equation, where t0.95** 

### 8 **is the t statistic for the 95 percent one** 

### 9 **tailed confidence interval for n minus 1** 

### 10 **degrees of freedom. And just to repeat again,** 

### 11 **this is just for on-mode power consumption.** 

### 12 **Similarly for non-on-mode power** 

### 13 **consumption, DOE proposes again that the** 

### 14 **represented value shall be the greater than or** 

### 15 **equal to the higher of the mean or the upper** 

### 16 **confidence limit divided by 1.10. Where in** 

### 17 **this case, the upper confidence limit is** 

### 18 **defined by the equation shown here, where** 

### 19 **t0.90 is the t statistic for the 90 percent** 

### 20 **on-tailed confidence internal with n minus 1** 

### 21 **degrees of freedom.** 

### 22 **So at this time, DOE requests**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 comment regarding this proposed sampling plan.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bill.** 

### 3 **MR. SCHINDLER: Hi, this is Bill** 

### 4 **Schindler.** 

### 5 **I believe that ENERGY STAR and** 

### 6 **CEC, at this point, only requires a single** 

### 7 **representative sample to be measured. And I** 

### 8 **see people shaking their head, yes.** 

### 9 **This would essentially double the** 

### 10 **amount because the sampling requirement is** 

### 11 **two. Is that correct? So you know it is -- I** 

### 12 **don't know that it is necessary to double the** 

### 13 **amount of testing for this. You know there** 

### 14 **are clearly verification procedures that all** 

### 15 **the regulating agencies have. And each one is** 

### 16 **different. It depends upon what type of** 

### 17 **enforcement and verification they want to** 

### 18 **perform.** 

### 19 **But as far as the initial test, we** 

### 20 **are in favor of just having the individual** 

### 21 **regulatory bodies decide what the numbers are** 

### 22 **required. But apparently, because they now**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 have to use the DOE site -- I mean**  

### 2 **requirement, you feel it necessary to specify** 

### 3 **that sampling number. But just bear in mind** 

### 4 **that two is twice the amount of effort that is** 

### 5 **going to have to go into the testing. So from** 

### 6 **a cost standpoint, it doubles.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 8 **Charlie.** 

### 9 **MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.** 

### 10 **We are supportive of the proposal. So I don't** 

### 11 **know of any products where you test fewer than** 

### 12 **two. So I think that is a reasonable thing to** 

### 13 **do and we are supportive of what we see here** 

### 14 **right now.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 16 **Additional -- Jon.** 

### 17 **MR. FAIRHURST: I have I think two** 

### 18 **concerns. One is I especially think that** 

### 19 **testing two televisions for standby mode is** 

### 20 **very much not needed. You are looking at such** 

### 21 **low power levels and low variability that that** 

### 22 **is a cost that could easily be avoided without**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 much difficulty.**  

### 2 **And then the other concern is the** 

### 3 **specifying the divisor of 1.05. In general,** 

### 4 **the manufacturer knows the variations within** 

### 5 **their line. We have got I think there are two** 

### 6 **issues here. There could be some variability** 

### 7 **in actual test from different labs or** 

### 8 **different times of the day, I don't know what.** 

### 9 **And then there are the variabilities from** 

### 10 **unit to unit. So a manufacturer will tend to** 

### 11 **know that if does a given model need more** 

### 12 **margin to where when we publish something we** 

### 13 **are assured that the next television that is** 

### 14 **tested will fall within that limit. If we** 

### 15 **apply the divisor of 1.05 to all, then we are** 

### 16 **assuming that all models have the same** 

### 17 **variation, unit to unit. And that might not** 

### 18 **be the case.** 

### 19 **So what I am concerned about is** 

### 20 **some stacking of margins. So you measure** 

### 21 **multiple televisions. We do the divisor. And** 

### 22 **then are there some other worst case**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 situations and then variations within the**  

### 2 **test? So in other words, how conservative** 

### 3 **does the manufacturer now have to be to** 

### 4 **produce televisions that are going to be** 

### 5 **repeatedly meeting what is published?** 

### 6 **So for instance, if there is a** 

### 7 **large amount of variation built in, I think** 

### 8 **Bill in a previous conversation you had used** 

### 9 **the thing of if the cop's speed gun on the** 

### 10 **freeway is plus or minus ten miles an hour, to** 

### 11 **make sure that you don't get a ticket on a 60** 

### 12 **mile an hour road, you need to drive at 50** 

### 13 **miles an hour. And so overall, we are** 

### 14 **concerned that the end solution here be** 

### 15 **realistic and not give an extra burden such** 

### 16 **that if there is a requirement for a 50 watt** 

### 17 **television by let's say EPA for a given thing** 

### 18 **that we don't have to start making 40 watt** 

### 19 **televisions in order to ensure that we can** 

### 20 **pass it.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 22 **Charlie?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie Stephens.**  

### 2 **We have been through this with a lot of other** 

### 3 **manufacturers, with a lot of other products** 

### 4 **when it gets into compliance. And I think in** 

### 5 **the end they discover that it actually isn't** 

### 6 **quite as bad as they think. Because when they** 

### 7 **require you to test two TVs, when you go to** 

### 8 **compliance testing, they will have to test two** 

### 9 **as well. And so the requirement isn't really** 

### 10 **that no TV can exceed that, it is that if you** 

### 11 **do the test, the same test that the** 

### 12 **manufacturers have to do, does it come out** 

### 13 **within compliance. So you can actually end up** 

### 14 **with a TV that might not quite comply but that** 

### 15 **isn't the end of the game. It doesn't mean** 

### 16 **you don't comply overall.** 

### 17 **So I think you will find when you** 

### 18 **get into this, it is less onerous but it is** 

### 19 **always up to the manufacturer. We have talked** 

### 20 **to AHAM over and over. They get to be as** 

### 21 **conservative as they think they want to be in** 

### 22 **putting a label on the TV. And it is up to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 them to decide what is safe, based on their**  

### 2 **own testing and what kind of variation they** 

### 3 **see. And to some extent, that is a good** 

### 4 **reason to test more than one.** 

### 5 **MR. FAIRHURST: This is Jon** 

### 6 **Fairhurst from Sharp again. Internally, of** 

### 7 **course, many sets may be tested in a more** 

### 8 **casual way in that it is not for compliance so** 

### 9 **it can be done more quickly and easily, as** 

### 10 **needed, to characterize the sets.** 

### 11 **A challenge that we have with EPA** 

### 12 **ENERGY STAR is that they are compliance bodies** 

### 13 **and third-party testing houses. So every time** 

### 14 **we have to do another TV, there is real money** 

### 15 **involved, rather than having one person work a** 

### 16 **little bit longer on a given day.** 

### 17 **So that is another concern we** 

### 18 **have.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 20 **Bill?** 

### 21 **MR. SCHINDLER: Yes, I believe it** 

### 22 **says zero tolerance. You can't go over the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 limit with ENERGY STAR. Some of these**  

### 2 **regulations are different terms but most of** 

### 3 **them don't give you any tolerance. So we** 

### 4 **actually measure many, many units in the** 

### 5 **course of production but then we only supply** 

### 6 **one to the outside laboratory for their final** 

### 7 **blessing that they stand behind. Before we** 

### 8 **report the number, we then go back to the** 

### 9 **statistics that we have taken over the line** 

### 10 **and incorporate the sufficient tolerance so** 

### 11 **that we never go over that zero tolerance that** 

### 12 **is allowed by the EPA.** 

### 13 **So we actually under report or** 

### 14 **let's say we over report the power to make** 

### 15 **sure that it never goes over that number. We** 

### 16 **build a lot of line statistics into what --** 

### 17 **and so the 1.05, I don't know if that is** 

### 18 **right. It depends upon the line. It depends** 

### 19 **upon the technology involved. So we have to,** 

### 20 **with our engineers, figure out what that** 

### 21 **number is so that we don't go over the line.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Charlie. Yes, I**  

### 2 **will throw one more thing in here, too. You** 

### 3 **are talking about EPA and ENERGY STAR and that** 

### 4 **sort of thing. But remember that every one of** 

### 5 **those televisions is in compliance with** 

### 6 **whatever DOE might specify. The only ones** 

### 7 **where this really matters are the ones that** 

### 8 **are at the very bottom and so close to the** 

### 9 **maximum allowed energy use that it might be a** 

### 10 **problem.** 

### 11 **Any other television that is more** 

### 12 **efficient than that, there are no monetary** 

### 13 **stakes involved, except for testing costs.** 

### 14 **You can report anything you want and they all** 

### 15 **comply. You know if it is 20 percent more** 

### 16 **efficient than what any standard might comply,** 

### 17 **whether it is ENERGY STAR or anybody else's** 

### 18 **standard, you are not going to be in violation** 

### 19 **of anything if it is 20 percent better. It** 

### 20 **will cost you to test it but the only real** 

### 21 **issue comes in where you are at the very** 

### 22 **bottom of the scale and you are so close to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 non-compliance that it becomes an issue. And**  

### 2 **I would think that would only be a very small** 

### 3 **fraction of your line.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon.** 

### 5 **MR. FAIRHURST: Actually, DOE** 

### 6 **isn't setting a compliance level with this** 

### 7 **ruling. Right?** 

### 8 **But for EPA ENERGY STAR, let's say** 

### 9 **it is very difficult, for instance, to qualify** 

### 10 **for the most efficient. So even an excellent** 

### 11 **TV might be on the edge and then the** 

### 12 **manufacturer wants to guarantee that when we** 

### 13 **do qualify for most efficient and then ENERGY** 

### 14 **STAR says we want to do a random sample** 

### 15 **validation that you do, that they do a random** 

### 16 **sample and we still pass.** 

### 17 **So that is why this is interesting** 

### 18 **and important for all televisions, not just** 

### 19 **the least efficient.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Jeremy.** 

### 21 **MR. DOMMU: So one point. I mean,** 

### 22 **obviously the reason we have the sampling plan**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 is we want to reduce variation of the test**  

### 2 **results. So obviously by having at least two,** 

### 3 **we are going to be reducing variation, as** 

### 4 **compared to only testing one.** 

### 5 **The other point I would make would** 

### 6 **be the sampling, as Louis said, calls for the** 

### 7 **represented value of power consumption for** 

### 8 **which a consumer would favor lower values** 

### 9 **would be the greater of or equal to the higher** 

### 10 **of the mean or the upper confidence level** 

### 11 **divided by the 1.05.** 

### 12 **So unless there is significant** 

### 13 **variation between those two test results, in** 

### 14 **most cases, it is going to be the mean of the** 

### 15 **two that you are reporting as the** 

### 16 **representation of the representative value.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Jon.** 

### 18 **MR. FAIRHURST: One question for** 

### 19 **DOE. Let's say that you just do the mean.** 

### 20 **Imagine that we have removed the 1.05 divisor.** 

### 21 **And so a given television set, let's say** 

### 22 **measured by DOE, says 50 watts would be the --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 is that what you shall report is 50 watts or**  

### 2 **the minimum you shall report?** 

### 3 **So in other words, if a** 

### 4 **manufacturer says well it is 50 but looking at** 

### 5 **my own statistical information, I know that I** 

### 6 **have got some variation and I actually want to** 

### 7 **add a little bit more padding. Can a** 

### 8 **manufacturer then say no, we want to report 55** 

### 9 **watts on these televisions to ensure** 

### 10 **compliance across the board?** 

### 11 **MR. DOMMU: Yes, so it is the** 

### 12 **greater than or equal to the higher of the** 

### 13 **mean or the upper confidence limit divided by** 

### 14 **1.05.** 

### 15 **MR. FAIRHURST: Okay.** 

### 16 **MR. DOMMU: So it could be greater** 

### 17 **than or equal to. The higher of those two.** 

### 18 **MR. FAIRHURST: Okay. Very good.** 

### 19 **Thanks.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I think now** 

### 21 **we are moving on.** 

### 22 **MR. DESROCHES: Last we will just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 cover the rounding requirements in**  

### 2 **representing these values.** 

### 3 **So all values made for** 

### 4 **representation shall be rounded. And an** 

### 5 **important point is that all the input values** 

### 6 **that go into the AEC calculation, those input** 

### 7 **values are what you get from the sampling plan** 

### 8 **and they are, themselves, rounded prior to** 

### 9 **calculating the AEC.** 

### 10 **So in the SNOPR, these are the** 

### 11 **rounding requirements. For the modes of** 

### 12 **operation, values of 10 watts or less shall be** 

### 13 **rounded to the nearest hundredth of a watt.** 

### 14 **And values greater than 10 watts and up to a** 

### 15 **100 watts shall be rounded to the nearest** 

### 16 **tenth of a watt. And values greater than 100** 

### 17 **watts shall be rounded to the nearest watt.** 

### 18 **And then as part of the AEC** 

### 19 **calculation, values less than 100 kilowatt** 

### 20 **hours shall be rounded to the nearest tenth of** 

### 21 **a kilowatt hour and values greater than 100** 

### 22 **kilowatt hours shall be rounded to the nearest**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 kilowatt hour. And again, the AEC uses as**  

### 2 **inputs value that are already rounded.** 

### 3 **So DOE requests comment on the** 

### 4 **proposed rounding requirements.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jon, no comment?** 

### 6 **How does the IEC do it?** 

### 7 **MR. FAIRHURST: I don't believe** 

### 8 **that the IEC requires any specific rounding.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional** 

### 10 **comments on rounding requirements?** 

### 11 **Jeff Howell, did I leave you out** 

### 12 **of the queue?** 

### 13 **MR. HOWELL: No, that's fine. My** 

### 14 **point was covered.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. I** 

### 16 **didn't think I did.** 

### 17 **Okay, so I think that then, for my** 

### 18 **part, that ends what I was intending to do** 

### 19 **here this afternoon and I will turn it back to** 

### 20 **Jeremy. I thank you all. This was a very** 

### 21 **productive meeting. Back to Jeremy Dommu.** 

### 22 **MR. DOMMU: Hi, everyone. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 yes, as Doug just said, we have finished the**  

### 2 **formal presentation. I just have a couple** 

### 3 **more slides with just some last minute** 

### 4 **comments. But before I get to them, I do want** 

### 5 **to give everyone in attendance and on the** 

### 6 **webinar an opportunity to bring up any other** 

### 7 **issues or any concerns with any aspect of the** 

### 8 **SNOPR that haven't already been covered?** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jon.** 

### 10 **MR. FAIRHURST: I believe that** 

### 11 **there is one important missing item, which is** 

### 12 **the automatic brightness control when** 

### 13 **measuring luminance of the default mode. It** 

### 14 **is not specified that the ABC be disabled.** 

### 15 **That would be one way to do it. I don't** 

### 16 **believe that is specified. Another way is to** 

### 17 **require that 300 lux, I believe that the** 

### 18 **current way for ENERGY STAR -- I can't recall** 

### 19 **if ENERGY STAR disables or uses 300 lux. Do** 

### 20 **you remember Bill?** 

### 21 **MR. SCHINDLER: They disable but** 

### 22 **if you can't disable, they put in 300 lux.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 You are talking about the luminance measure?**  

### 2 **MR. FAIRHURST: For the luminance** 

### 3 **measurement, right.** 

### 4 **So in that case where you --** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Repeat that. He is** 

### 6 **not on the record. So repeat back what he** 

### 7 **said.** 

### 8 **MR. FAIRHURST: Very good. So** 

### 9 **what Bill Schindler just said is that to his** 

### 10 **recollection for ENERGY STAR, when testing the** 

### 11 **luminance in the default home mode, you** 

### 12 **disable ABC. If it cannot be disabled through** 

### 13 **the menus, then you apply 300 lux to the ABC** 

### 14 **sensor.** 

### 15 **This does bring up a bit of a** 

### 16 **challenge when you are measuring luminance in** 

### 17 **that the current method, unless you use a tube** 

### 18 **or a shroud between the screen and the light** 

### 19 **source will pollute the luminance from the** 

### 20 **screen. You will have potentially a** 

### 21 **reflection of the light source on the ABC back** 

### 22 **to the luminance meter. So this is another**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 area that needs to be considered.**  

### 2 **In IEC and CEA right now we do** 

### 3 **allow for a tube or a shroud, specifically for** 

### 4 **this application.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay.** 

### 6 **Okay, any other comments here as we move --** 

### 7 **MR. KLINKE: Sorry. This is Kurt** 

### 8 **Klinke with Navigant. In regards to the** 

### 9 **luminance test, we actually do specify in** 

### 10 **section 5.7.1 the ABC sensor -- at the very** 

### 11 **bottom of that section we say the ABC sensor** 

### 12 **must be disabled during this test specifically** 

### 13 **for luminance testing as part of the** 

### 14 **regulatory language.** 

### 15 **MR. FAIRHURST: Thank you. I** 

### 16 **missed that.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Bill.** 

### 18 **MR. SCHINDLER: Yes, that's good.** 

### 19 **And do you mean that it is acceptable to** 

### 20 **through the menu disable it or putting 300 lux** 

### 21 **in, in the case that the menu doesn't have a** 

### 22 **disabling feature? I mean that is why we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 spelled out both scenarios.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Kurt, back to you.** 

### 3 **Anthony.** 

### 4 **MR. ROTOLO: So we actually don't** 

### 5 **distinguish between the two in this** 

### 6 **specification. I think we could think about** 

### 7 **this a little bit more and see if that would** 

### 8 **be appropriate.** 

### 9 **MR. SCHINDLER: Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Jon.** 

### 11 **MR. FAIRHURST: Briefly. I think** 

### 12 **when using the 300 lux or greater than the** 

### 13 **specifics of how the light was applied for** 

### 14 **these very particular 3, 12, 35, and 100 might** 

### 15 **not apply. For instance, you wouldn't** 

### 16 **necessarily need IR filters and so forth. The** 

### 17 **idea is simply to saturate the circuit.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, these are** 

### 19 **useful final comments. Additional final** 

### 20 **comments? Then back to Jeremy.** 

### 21 **MR. DOMMU: Okay, great. So there** 

### 22 **is a couple slides here, really quickly.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 Again, this is the slide of how to submit**  

### 2 **comments. You could refer to this later on as** 

### 3 **you are drafting your comments. The same** 

### 4 **information is available on the DOE rulemaking** 

### 5 **website of where to email it. Comment closes** 

### 6 **April 26th. How to send it by mail, submit it** 

### 7 **on regulations.gov docket.** 

### 8 **Again, here are some links to some** 

### 9 **of the relevant web pages that has more** 

### 10 **information on the rulemaking activities and** 

### 11 **additional information.** 

### 12 **And then finally here is my** 

### 13 **contact information and the contact** 

### 14 **information of Celia Sher in the General** 

### 15 **Counsel Office. Francine is here today** 

### 16 **because Celia is on maternity leave. But if** 

### 17 **there is questions, you could contact me and** 

### 18 **if there is any legal questions, I will** 

### 19 **certainly be able to get you some input on** 

### 20 **those as well.** 

### 21 **So thank you all so much for all** 

### 22 **the valuable insight that you have provided**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 today. It is 2:30 and we are wrapping up a**  

### 2 **bit ahead of schedule. I recommend you go** 

### 3 **check out the cherry blossoms if you have some** 

### 4 **time to kill, a ten minute walk away.** 

### 5 **And thank you all so much for** 

### 6 **being here. I very much appreciate your** 

### 7 **comments today and the comments that you will** 

### 8 **be making on the docket.** 

### 9 **Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: The last page of** 

### 11 **your packet has an evaluation form. So please** 

### 12 **take a minute and fill out the evaluation** 

### 13 **form.** 

### 14 **Thanks to all. Safe travels.** 

### 15 **(Whereupon, at 2:32 p.m., the** 

### 16 **foregoing meeting was adjourned.)** 

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214:3 1979 12:20 2 2 30:19 67:19 84:1 152:11,22 153:9 153:14,17,19 154:5 156:3,14,15 157:22 160:9 162:16 171:8,8,10 172:1,8,8,9 2.227:19 2.3 218:22 2.6218:20 2:30 242:1 2:32242:15 2076:9 189:14 190:13 231:15,19 200 156:5 2005 188:6 2007218:18 2009 12:21 2010 13:1 2010-BT-TP-0026 14:2 2012 13:5 184:19 2013 1:6 4:9 2037 143:2 204 3:18 21 96:12 2273:6 230 149:18 236 3:20 24 177:17 189:7 190:4 192:4 193:3 193:10 24/7 193:10 240 145:15 25 65:7 82:6 26 12:6 42:16 52:7

52:17 53:12 73:14 26th 36:1,2 241:6 27 135:10 3 3 18:5 26:2 31:6,8

31:17 40:11 62:7 62:11 66:5 67:7 67:10,12 68:4,12 69:22 70:7 72:14 73:9 74:13 79:21 79:22 80:2,5,6,12 84:1 85:15 86:6 171:11 173:16,21 174:2,16,18 175:2 240:14 3.0 113:11 142:19 3.1.3 173:14 3.27 84:13 86:2 3.3 86:4 3.31 86:4 3.5 27:20 3:00 9:1 3:45 9:5 30 189:12 190:13 191:19 194:5,8,18 30S 28:7 29:5 32:10

33:3,4 30S-type29:20 30-minute 194:16 300 18:3 20:3 26:4

40:12 41:14,18 61:14 62:4 83:7 171:20 172:5,14 237:17,19,22 238:13 239:20 240:12 31 52:6 35 18:5 26:3 40:12 41:15 48:16 62:11 66:6 80:5,10 83:6 83:18 240:14 36 67:2 365 205:15 39040:17 46:16 4 4 1:6 3:4 4:9 85:16

85:20 117:12 4th 13:11 4.0 113:12 134:14 4.23 84:11,14 40 148:12 194:5

227:18 5 5 30:21 31:7,17

32:14 38:6,12,16 41:4,11,17 69:17 75:14 117:13 152:11,22 153:9 153:14,20 154:5 206:9 214:1 5.7.1 239:10 50 18:2 26:3 40:12

41:16 55:13 61:14 83:6 135:8 145:15 145:16 156:4 169:14,17 170:4 170:16 227:12,16 233:22 234:1,4 54 135:8 55 234:8 59.94 145:18 6 6 172:2 201:20 6.0 15:11 32:13

104:21 184:18 185:4,11,18 6.95 86:9 60 142:7 145:17,22

169:14,16,21 170:5,14 227:11 60287 192:19 60933-5 169:2 61 3:10 62087 15:11 87:20

113:11 142:18 143:2 62301 142:2 170:6 65 107:14 108:21

109:3,12,14 110:5 114:6 115:4 132:14 650 109:2 6741:22 7 7205:18 70 55:12 71.673:11,15 71040:18 46:16 75 26:4 40:12 41:18

67:20 82:5 83:7 201:13 202:5,11 203:7,98 8 26:2 40:11 96:10

172:13 8E-089 1:8 87 3:12 89 62:2 9 9 86:6 9.38 69:1 9:00 1:9 9:01 4:2 90223:19 95 223:8 980 32:13 99.9 202:8NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 274

Test Procedures for Television Sets

US DOE

04-04-13

Washington, DC