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 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS

 NEGOTIATED RULEMAKING WORKING GROUP

 Wednesday, March 5, 2014

 8:00 a.m.

Reported by: Linda D. Metcalf, RPR/CSR,

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 DOUG BROOKMAN

3 CHARLES POWERS

4 PAUL LIN

5 CHARLES CAPPELLINO

6 GREG CASE

7 MARK HANDZEL

8 ALBERT HUGER

9 ROBERT BARBOUR

10 DOUGLAS POTTS

11 GREG TOWSLEY

12 LOUIS STARR

13 STEVE ROSENSTOCK

14 GARY FERNSTROM

15 TOM ECKMAN

16 MEG WALTNER

17 LUCAS ADIN

18 BETSY KOHL

19 ALLISON WILLIAMS

20 SARAH WIDDER

21 DANIEL WEINTRAUB

22 CALLIE REIS
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)

2 ROB BOTELER

3 ALEX BOESENBERG

4 LAURA PETRILLO-GROH

5 STEVE THOMPSON

6 JOANNA MAUER

7 JEREMIAH FREEMAN

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 (8:09 a.m.)

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's begin. Please

4 take your seats.

5 Good morning, everyone, and nice to see you

6 here bright and early on a Wednesday morning. This is

7 the U.S. Department of Energy's Commercial and

8 Industrial Pumps Negotiated Rulemaking Working Group.

9 Today is March 5th, here in Washington,

10 D.C., in the Forrestal Building. This is the second

11 day of the third meeting of the working group.

12 Let's start with doing introductions -- I

13 think I got that right -- around the room. We'll start

14 to my immediate left, and get used to turning these

15 microphones on and off. Please.

16 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers, Flowserve

17 Corporation.

18 MR. LIN: Paul Lin, Regal Beloit.

19 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic Institute.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem.

21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

22 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT

2 Corporation.

3 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts, American Water.

4 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

5 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: California -- Gary

7 Fernstrom, California Investor-owned Utilities, PG&E,

8 Southern California Edison and San Diego Gas and

9 Electric, and the Southern California Gas Company.

10 And it is a pleasure to be here on time this

11 morning.

12 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

13 Standards Awareness Project.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power and

15 Conservation Council. It's pleasant to be here

16 instead of on the phone.

17 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General Counsel.

18 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand up, Callie.

20 MS. REIS: Callie Reis, Navigant.

21 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific Northwest

22 National Laboratory.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub, Navigant.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, Lawrence

3 Berkeley National Laboratory.

4 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec.

5 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, NEMA.

6 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo- Groh,

7 AHRI.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Again, thanks to all of you

10 for being here to get an early start on this day.

11 We had a very, very productive day

12 yesterday. By the way, are folks joining us through

13 the Web?

14 PARTICIPANT: Meg is on line.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Welcome, Meg. Glad you could

16 join us.

17 We had a very productive day yesterday. We

18 really covered a lot of ground and I'm very pleased

19 about that progress.

20 Wanting to have a brief discussion here at

21 the outset about what we intend to cover today. Left

22 over from yesterday as we covered at the end of the
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1 day was the issue of clean water definition and

2 whether we need that versus, for example, the decision

3 making tree that is included in the packet here or

4 whether there is some hybrid or some other thing that

5 would solve the dilemma that was fully described

6 yesterday.

7 In addition, we hope to cover probably this

8 morning the test metric, further discussion on that.

9 And then in our constant and ongoing quest

10 to establish scope, if you all look at page 3 in your

11 handout, since you've had a chance to sleep on this,

12 see if there's anything additional that we can do

13 today regarding, I guess, principally the items in

14 yellow.

15 We've heard over and over from especially

16 the Energy Efficiency Caucus that they want more data.

17 They seem pretty resolute on what they want in the

18 data. So maybe there is nothing to be done today.

19 However, if there is, that would be -- that

20 would be good. And so we just see if there's any

21 additional conversation can advance that goal.

22 And then finally, the few individuals that
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1 were unable to join us yesterday, Tom Eckman being

2 one, we are glad you could make it here today. You, I

3 believe, said ASRAC is going to be meeting either at

4 the end of March or end of April?

5 MR. ECKMAN: Actually the middle of April.

6 I think the tentative dates were either the 19th of

7 March or April 14th.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas and I were having a

9 brief discussion before we started about whether the

10 working group should be sending anything to ASRAC at

11 this stage. We don't have an established scope yet.

12 We don't have anything akin to a proposal yet. We've

13 made good progress on parameters, exclusions, a

14 variety of things, and I was wondering, looking at

15 both Lucas and Tom, if there's any kind of conveyance

16 that would be beneficial from the working group to

17 ASRAC.

18 Lucas, go ahead.

19 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

20 So as Doug stated, I think the impression

21 that we have from the group is that to be able to make

22 a decision on items that are left in yellow, there are
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1 still some more data that we need to collect and look

2 at. I mean, if anyone in the group feels otherwise

3 that they are able to actually make a decision on

4 those things today, we would be interested to know

5 that.

6 But to the extent we are able to make a

7 specific recommendation to the ASRAC, it seems like we

8 would need to actually as a group make a decision on

9 those things before we can specifically recommend that

10 we're going to take them up on a follow-on rulemaking.

11 So it may not be today. It may be at the

12 next meeting we need to do that, but that is something

13 that I personally think that we should be prepared to

14 be able to do if, in fact, we want to pursue any of

15 those items in a follow-on proceeding.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom, the ASRAC, typically

17 they'd be meeting something like quarterly or bi18 monthly?

19 MR. ECKMAN: We can meet any time, but the

20 in-person meetings happen about I think we're doing it

21 twice a year, maybe three times a year.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: But that's -- they can convene

2 it at any point in time there seems to be a need for

3 action.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to confirm that the

5 schedule -- we established, well, our next meeting

6 date for the working group is March 26th-27th. So

7 that's like 21 days, and we hope based on Al Huber's

8 efforts and the efforts of the manufacturer caucus

9 that we'll have a lot of data available for review and

10 discussion at that point.

11 So that would lead me to have the hope and

12 expectation that that would be the time that we would

13 try very hard to establish scope and decide what we're

14 doing about, for example, circulators especially and

15 the other items listed here in yellow.

16 So that's my general thinking about this,

17 and then I think after that we're on our way. We just

18 get right into the nitty-gritty here.

19 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. If the ASRAC meeting were

20 not until the April date, we could take a proposal to

21 them if there is one to take at that point in time for

22 an extended discussion on whatever residual numbers
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1 outside of the current core group we've got.

2 So if it's the 19th, we'll miss that

3 opportunity, but --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. ECKMAN: -- I think we certainly can have

6 some conversations today about the feasibility once we

7 get a little more discussion on the metrics and what

8 have you. I'd like to have some conversation with

9 some of the manufacturers to see where we are on the

10 follow-on proposal, and maybe we could take something

11 to ASRAC. I don't know.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. ECKMAN: I'm still fresh today.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Tom.

16 Some of the discussion yesterday was about

17 how it would work, for example. Some of the

18 manufacturers, again, made an appeal as they did in

19 the last meeting to address circulators as a separate

20 matter, a separate rulemaking and how that would work,

21 how the sequencing would work, how if we confine the

22 scope to some combination of the green elements,
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1 perhaps some of the yellow elements and excluded

2 circulators and then took them up at the conclusion of

3 this working group's activity, just how that might

4 work, and so that's a definite issue for ASRAC.

5 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. ECKMAN: My impression was that was

8 going to be an issue.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, okay.

10 MR. ECKMAN: So we're prepared to take that

11 up.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So nothing really new there.

13 Okay. Great.

14 I'm not sure which we should do first, which

15 among these we should do first. I think we confirmed

16 yesterday that sanitary and hygienic, we're not likely

17 to gain any ground on that today, correct?

18 PARTICIPANT: Next meeting.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Next meeting. Do we have

20 additional thoughts on clean water definition versus

21 the -- Al Huber.

22 MR. HUBER: We caucused last night, and it
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1 is our opinion the definition needs to be there, but

2 if it's not going to be there, then there is going to

3 have to be a lot of pumps moved into the red category,

4 but there's a lot of pumps that could possible pump

5 clean water, but are not used for clean water that are

6 not on any of these lists. I mean, there's

7 peristaltic pumps. There's lobe pumps, there's rotary

8 gear pumps. There's all kinds of pumps.

9 So either we're going to have to go back and

10 delineate each and every pump, or else we're going to

11 have to have a clean water definition, and I want to

12 make this clear so that everybody understands. We

13 started all of these negotiations and all these things

14 around a definition of clean water. It was in the

15 framework document, and now it has been changed, and

16 we think it, from our side, that's a major change.

17 So now we've got to go back and make sure

18 that we don't miss anything. We weren't too worried

19 about it as long as there was the definition of clean

20 water, but if you remove that, then we've got to go

21 back and do a lot of study, and then we're going to

22 have to come back and do a presentation at the next
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1 meeting about the long list of pumps you've got to

2 exclude.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

4 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

5 So at least for DOE's part, I don't think we

6 have any disagreement about what the intended scope is

7 to be. I think it's really just a question at this

8 point of how we're going to identify it clearly in

9 regulatory language.

10 So when we had gone through this process of

11 trying to figure out the best way to specifically

12 identify it taking into account not just what we want

13 to identify it, but how we want to be able to

14 distinguish those things from things that should or

15 should not be covered eventually in enforcement

16 situations, we just wanted to be as clear as possible,

17 and our view had been, well, it's better just to

18 identify whatever exclusions you have and whatever's

19 left is covered, but it's sounding like that's not

20 really at all easy to do.

21 And we understand that, and that's okay.

22 It's just we want to make sure we come up with the
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1 right language to identify what is covered, and so I'm

2 not personally opposed to using a clean water

3 definition approach. We just want to come up with the

4 right words, and we might have to do a little more

5 thinking about what that will be.

6 MR. HUBER: Okay. Al Huber, Patterson.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

8 We're doing -- yesterday the room did not

9 favor everybody saying their name before they speak,

10 but I know we'll do better today, but we did well

11 enough, but we're on our pathway.

12 Al Huber.

13 MR. HUBER: Well, in the event that we can

14 agree to a definition of one that's clear, we will go

15 ahead and go back and identify as best we can the

16 types and number and the definition of the number of

17 pumps that would have to be excluded.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. HUBER: We have to do one or the other.

20 We can't just leave this open.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Chuck.

22 MR. POWERS: Yes. I'm going to make a
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1 recommendation here. We need to stay focused on the

2 effort. If we go back and get all of our teams,

3 Worldwide and all of the other pump companies, to

4 start spending time on what Al's recommending, all

5 it's going to do is take us away from the goal, right?

6 So the question would be could we vote,

7 could we agree to whatever you want to say that we

8 will have some type of definition of clean water in

9 there? That would put us at ease, maybe not the

10 actual wording yet, but we could possibly vote or

11 agree on the fact that we will have some type of

12 definition in there, and we can allow you all because

13 if you have an idea, put it on paper. Tell us what you

14 think it wants to be. Let's look at your version

15 instead of ours if there's a different version of

16 clean water or whatever it might want to be, gray

17 water and all the other aspects.

18 So there's two pieces. So one is if you're

19 understanding that some type of definition needs to be

20 there, let's agree on that, and then come up with the

21 definition at the next meeting or if you can come up

22 with something today, and we vote on that.
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1 That way Al's team, well, aren't spending a

2 lot of time doing stuff now that's going to be no

3 value added.

4 MR. ADIN: So Lucas Adin, DOE.

5 I'm open to doing it that way, and for DOE's

6 part, I don't know if we'd be ready to vote on

7 something today. I mean, I think we need a little

8 more time to think about it.

9 We're happy to make some suggestions at the

10 next meeting. I mean, we'll look at some of the

11 definitions we have for other products and think

12 about, you know, the way this typically works for us

13 and what our concerns are and make some suggestions.

14 But I completely agree that we do not want

15 to be doing a bunch of extra work around something

16 that in theory we should be able to come to an

17 agreement on, and I also don't think that this item

18 should stop or slow work on other things that we

19 clearly need to do to get resolution on scope and

20 other things by the next meeting.

21 So I don't want this to be a distraction.

22 MR. POWERS: So this is Chuck. Sorry.
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1 So let me make sure. When you say you don't

2 want to do a vote on it, so you don't want to do a

3 vote on the specific wording? I agree, but could we

4 at least agree and vote so it puts it to bed saying we

5 will have some type of definition?

6 We all agree that we will use some type of

7 definition towards clean water or whatever, and we

8 agree on doing that path. That puts the alternative

9 to bed, and now we focus on what that definition wants

10 to be later. That's fine.

11 Is that what you're okay with?

12 MR. ADIN: Let me make sure I understand

13 what you mean. It sounds like you're saying just

14 agree to the principle or in principle using a single

15 definition to identify clean water pumps as a

16 classification or category of covered products that

17 we're addressing for these standards. Is that

18 basically what you mean?

19 MR. POWERS: That would be my opinion. I

20 don't know if Al and the others, but I think that's

21 what I'm trying to get to.

22 MR. ADIN: Okay.
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1 MR. POWERS: Al, do you?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al says yes.

3 MR. STARR: Louis Starr.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: let me just say for the

5 record, having done a lot of work with DOE over the

6 years, some of this is rather a nuanced construct of

7 the form, the language, all that stuff, all the stuff

8 that the legal folks that labor at length -- but

9 anyway, who did I recognize there? Louis.

10 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA.

11 I think also part of the solution might be

12 there's an administrative way. You know, DOE does

13 those cross-walks all the time. I don't know if there

14 could be a cross-walk with this definition in terms of

15 putting it somewhere in there where the intent is

16 there, but the actual regulations are outside of it.

17 So that also would be another solution. So

18 it would encompass what you're trying to do.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

20 MS. MAUER: Joanna.

21 Al, could you just give one or two examples

22 of these other pump types that you mentioned? What
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1 are they pumping, just so I have a better sense?

2 MR. HUBER: Well, a lot of --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

4 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

5 Most of them pump viscous liquids of one

6 type, the ones I described, but we will have to go

7 back and look. I mean, there's a tree of hundreds of

8 different types of pumps, but we're going to have to

9 go back through there and make sure that we have

10 excluded everything that needs to be excluded if we're

11 not going to say clean water.

12 You don't normally pump clean water with a

13 rotary gear pump. You don't pump clean water with a

14 rotary lobe pump. You don't generally do it with a

15 diaphragm pump. You know, there's pumps you don't

16 normally use, but if we're not careful I don't want to

17 get a regulation on a very small niche of the market

18 and put a lot of folks out of business.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg and then we can hear

20 from --

21 MR. HUBER: That's what we're very concerned

22 about. I want everybody to understand it. We're not
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1 trying to be hardheaded here. We're saying that's

2 fine, and by the way, we are not as a group interested

3 in any cross-walk. We want it in the regulation or we

4 want to go through every possible pump and categorize

5 it, whichever way you want to do it --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on Chuck.

7 MR. HUBER: -- but we've got to do this.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case and then we're

9 going to hear from Alison.

10 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

11 What we're talking about doing is taking

12 what we call HI 1.1, which has all of our standards

13 and nomenclature and looking at that tree and saying,

14 "Okay. We need to eliminate everything in this tree,"

15 because if we're saying this is a clean water -- we

16 want this just for clean water, we're going to have to

17 start pruning all of that stuff back that it wouldn't

18 be a clean water pump.

19 So you know, it was very easy for us when we

20 said all the pumps for clean water. There may be a

21 whole sector of those that we haven't even considered

22 because they'd never be used for clean water
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1 applications --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.

3 MR. CASE: -- but we'd have to remove them.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison.

5 I'm wondering can we switch the order sort

6 of? So first we would define end suction close

7 coupled and the other pumps, and then you would only

8 have to exclude the non-water type pumps that also

9 fall into those categories.

10 Would that make it easier? Because then

11 like you wouldn't have -- you know, you would have

12 chemical pumps that are end suction frame mounted but

13 perhaps you wouldn't have some of these other wide

14 universe of pumps. So maybe that would narrow down

15 what you had to exclude.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't know which of you

17 wants to speak for the Caucus.

18 MR. POWERS: Let me just first make one

19 comment.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, yeah.

21 MR. POWERS: At the end of the day you've

22 got to look back at the basics and say what is the
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1 highest volume; what's the best impact to help an

2 efficiency or whatever, right?

3 I mean, you leave it wide open. You could

4 get into peristaltic. You get the heart transfer,

5 right? Go to the hospital. You'll see we call it the

6 rope pump, but peristaltic pump moving blood. And you

7 open up and don't put clean water; you could be adding

8 -- I mean, we're going to have to take the list of

9 products and go across the full gamut.

10 So you know, is that what you also want to

11 tackle and make a list? I mean, I'm picking. You

12 asked for some examples, Joanna. I was just saying

13 what I was trying to say is we have to look at form

14 stainless. We have to go -- there's a whole myriad of

15 products.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought I understood

17 Alison's -- the thrust of her comment.

18 Al, Al Huber.

19 MR. HUBER: Well, now, I'm not in agreement

20 with that, Alison, because you have defined pump.

21 Okay? And it's a very broad definition. If we don't

22 put the clean water in there and we don't define what
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1 we're going to regulate, then everything that's a pump

2 can be regulated.

3 I mean you went very broad on your

4 definition, and that's a fact. That's a very broad

5 definition. It includes even solids and any kind of

6 liquid basically.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

8 MR. ADIN: Let me see if I can provide a

9 little bit of clarification there because I understand

10 your concern, Al. What Alison described is more about

11 being concise about exactly which types are, in fact,

12 covered by the standards that we're going to write.

13 So you're right that the pump definition we adopted is

14 very broad, but we would be writing very concise

15 definitions for the types that we're actually setting

16 standards for and restricting the applicability of

17 those standards just to those very specific types.

18 And then with in each configuration, you

19 know, whether it's end suction close coupled or all

20 those types, and within those you could identify,

21 alright, which ones are the clean water ones and which

22 ones are not.
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1 I think Alison's question was just whether -

2 - is it easier to make that distinction once you've

3 separated them into those types or is it better just

4 to do it up front and say clean water, not clean

5 water, and then separate them into different types.

6 MR. HUBER: Our problem is we haven't

7 considered this until recently. So we really haven't

8 thought about it.

9 Yeah, I mean, we would have to look at it.

10 I'm not certain.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought yesterday that in

12 discussion we got a pretty clear picture of some of

13 the problems and limitations and really heard clearly

14 why you're attached to clean water as a definition.

15 Mark, you're next.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

17 Just along the lines, you know, as Al said,

18 we have been following this path for over two and a

19 half, three years, and that's the direction we've

20 communicated to all of our membership. So this is a

21 significant change that we cannot make without a lot

22 of time to consider.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So it's clear. I mean, I

3 know it's been said before, but this is not intended

4 to change intent at all. We still expect the scope to

5 be the green and possibly some of the yellow pumps,

6 all clean water pumps, and we're really just talking

7 about how to define it. We completely agree with you

8 guys about what we think the scope is going to be in

9 terms of clean water, and so I'm just basically trying

10 to wonder if we have an OH3 pump that's covered, is it

11 easier to say, well, we just have to exclude some of

12 these chemical pumps?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Whereas then you don't have

15 to exclude peristaltic pumps and whatever because

16 they're already outside the scope of the standard.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie? Are you all set?

18 Gary.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary representing

20 the California IOUs.

21 I am very empathetic with our friends from

22 industry because we kind of agreed from the start of
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1 our discussions that clean water ought to be the

2 scope, but I don't think any of us realized at the

3 time that, you know, that's really an application and

4 poses a lot of difficulties with respect to how DOE

5 handles this.

6 I have the same issue with swimming pool

7 pumps. Swimming pool pump looks the same as a pump

8 that might be used for other applications. In the

9 small sizes there's no differentiation between those

10 used in residential application and those used in

11 small commercial.

12 So it would be great if DOE could conjure up

13 some way of developing a regulation that gets out the

14 application and resolves this issue for all of us.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe we need some time to

16 continue conjuring this, as you say. I thought

17 Alison's proposal held promise, you know, that kind of

18 a construct that would get you to -- that would

19 continue to narrow the gate, so to speak.

20 But Lucas.

21 MR. ADIN: This is just a quick question,

22 more of a technical question, I guess, about pumps
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1 generally, but my understanding is that the scope is

2 intended to be limited to rotodynamic pumps, but I

3 heard mention peristaltic pumps, which I don't think

4 are rotodynamic. Are they considered rotodynamic

5 pumps?

6 MR. CASE: No.

7 MR. ADIN: So if we're concerned about

8 including pumps like that, then the definition should

9 also specify that they're rotodynamic for the purposes

10 of coverage under the standard.

11 I'm sorry?

12 MR. POWERS: The Europeans --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

14 MR. POWERS: The EU used those words. You

15 decided not to.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, follow on.

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

18 ITT.

19 We do have an exclusion in the red section

20 here that says positive displacement. So I think by

21 having that entry, I mean, that serves to basically

22 exclude all of the lobe pumps and positive
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1 displacement pumps and focus on the rotodynamic.

2 So I don't know if that's a piece of the

3 solution here or not. Al, I don't know if you want

4 to.

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

6 I think if we include it in the definition

7 of bare pump maybe or pump, the rotodynamic, I think

8 that would help.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. ADIN: I mean, it's a question of

11 whether you have a specific exclusion for positive

12 displacement or you say rotodynamic. If there's only

13 two, you know what I mean? You say one or the other -

14 -

15 MR. HUBER: That's true.

16 MR. ADIN: -- and you've got it. We'll think

17 about the --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me hear what Alison.

19 MR. ADIN: Alison has a comment.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: If are defining the

21 individual pump types that are covered for the scope

22 of the standard, then I mean it gets back to like we
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1 could define rotodynamic pumps and say they are all

2 included, but each of the pump types that we select

3 for coverage are only going to be rotodynamic. So

4 they're implicitly excluded when we define the

5 individual pump types for coverage.

6 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck again.

7 We spent time on this yesterday. It was

8 clear that that rotodynamic was in the EU, but for

9 some reason we're bound and determined to come up with

10 our own version and continue to convolute.

11 I'm just telling you. We voted on it. I'm

12 just going by what's on paper. So rotodynamic, which

13 as in the EU, was not included in this definition.

14 Just bear with me. So I get it, but my question is we

15 want a clear process here. We don't want to say maybe

16 just end suction on all pumps and, to Alison's point,

17 try to break it down because then you're going to have

18 people later on coming to qualification, "Well, it is

19 this, but it isn't this."

20 If you have some clear phases, gates to go

21 through, there's no guessing later.

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.
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1 Every one of these refinements helps, I

2 think. So our discussion about rotodynamic, but there

3 are lots of rotodynamic pumps that aren't necessarily

4 clean water pumps either. So some pumps, for example,

5 that's an interest of mine -- so I hope we could come

6 to some universal solution that doesn't require that

7 we list all kinds of individual exceptions.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

9 MR. ADIN: I agree, Gary. I think in

10 principle we're actually all agreed. I mean, we've

11 been hitting on different pieces of this, but based on

12 the discussion we've just had in the last few minutes,

13 it doesn't sound like we're going to come to an

14 agreement today on --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let this settle a

16 little bit.

17 MR. ADIN: But what I will say is that DOE

18 will for its own part do some more thinking about this

19 since, you know, obviously some of the major concerns

20 about how the language would be constructed is on our

21 side, and so having experience in the application of

22 these definitions and how they might be important in
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1 an enforcement situation, which we've dealt with

2 before, we'll see if we can make some proposals next

3 time that might be okay for this group and that might

4 accomplish this intent that I think we're all in

5 agreement on.

6 And just to -- no, I think that's it.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yeah, so in this

8 conversation I haven't heard any single person not

9 supportive of the clean water concept. Every single

10 person has said the same thing. So we need to figure

11 out some pathway that's going to satisfy DOE's needs

12 to have something that's enforceable, and we'll just

13 bring it back up when it's timely to do so.

14 But I don't think that your entire caucus

15 should be worried at this point. Okay?

16 Okay. So then should we move now to test

17 metric? Yeah?

18 Lucas, please. Yeah, maybe you can. Go

19 ahead.

20 MR. ADIN: Sure. Thanks, Doug.

21 Just a brief introductory statement, I

22 guess, before we move into this next phase of our
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1 discussion.

2 So this material we're about to present was

3 actually essentially in the same form sent out already

4 to the group. These were the slides that we had

5 provided to the HI group for a more specific

6 explanation of an example of the metric that we had

7 discussed at the last meeting.

8 So we have a couple of additional slides in

9 here, but otherwise it's essentially the same thing.

10 We're just going to talk through in a little bit more

11 detail what that potential metric is, how it might

12 work and a couple of points that the group may need to

13 consider and how it's constructed and used.

14 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder, at the podium.

16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Is that good? Yes.

17 So as Lucas said, this is going to be

18 similar to the discussion we had last meeting, but

19 hopefully get into a little more detail, although the

20 slides will look the same. I'm going to try and talk

21 through in a little more detail how we might generate

22 the variables that go into the PER equation, and then
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1 also talk about some of the nuances of the

2 construction of the metric and maybe the goal of this

3 discussion or my goal is to hopefully get to a general

4 agreement in the room about what the general metric

5 architecture or framework will look like, maybe even

6 vote on the equation format, but keep those

7 discussions at a high level, and then save discussions

8 regarding how we get those variables and how the

9 standard will work.

10 We can answer those questions if we need to,

11 but if we can agree on what the metric wants to

12 capture, I think that will get us long ways towards

13 being more productive in those subsequent discussions.

14 So here is the slide that we have all seen

15 before just describing the basis for the metric. So

16 you see the pump configurations along the top, the

17 bare pump, bare pump plus motor or driver, and bare

18 pump plus motor and controls, driver and controls.

19 And we wanted to come up with a metric that

20 addressed pumps, the bare pump, and would be sold in

21 any configuration, and the same metric would be

22 applied to, in this construct anyway, the same metric
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1 would be applied to the pump regardless of what metric

2 it was sold in, but different variables would go into

3 the equation to represent the performance.

4 So you'd get different numbers for the same

5 pump, but it would be the same, you know, efficiency

6 or we're going to call it pump energy rating -- I just

7 made that up -- PER. That's what I've been calling

8 it, but we could call it anything, open to

9 suggestions.

10 So this is just another figure that talks

11 about the same thing. We want to capture bare pump

12 energy use, efficiency or energy use in the metric,

13 and that's actually probably most fundamental that we

14 have a representation of the efficiency or energy use

15 of the pump.

16 And so using HI terminology, that would be

17 representative of the MEI or EU. In the EU the MEI is

18 represented by that block, but then we also want to

19 represent in the metric the efficiency or energy use

20 of a motor that would be pared with that pump as it's

21 sold and potentially any controls that would be paired

22 with that pump as it's sold, that bare pump.
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1 So this is the general high level framework

2 of the pump efficiency rating as we've considered it

3 so far. There's basically four weighted variables.

4 The weighting is on the left-hand side. It's .25,

5 equally weighted load points in this construct, and

6 then the P1 BEP, P1 .75 BEP, those P variables are

7 representing the power input to the pump, the larger

8 pump plus motor plus controls. So the input power to

9 that pump system at four load points, which would

10 correspond to the light green load points if you were

11 a bare pump or pump plus motor, and the darker green

12 load points moving down a system curve if you were a

13 pump sold with motor and controls.

14 And this is a head flow curve, but we can

15 imagine in our mind where those power numbers, those

16 four power numbers, especially the load points at 50

17 percent and 25 percent would be much lower power

18 numbers. So you would result in a much lower PER

19 rating for that pump.

20 There's a little bit of note on this slide.

21 Then I'll have more details on the other slide.

22 One of the differences of this metric versus
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1 the EEI metric that has been discussed in the EU and

2 also proposed by HI in their framework comments is

3 that there's no denominator. The units of this metric

4 would be horsepower.

5 And it could be beneficial for reasons, for

6 some reasons to normalize this PER, this weighted

7 horsepower rating on the top by some other value on

8 the bottom. That would make it more like an

9 efficiency where you can compare a let's say 70

10 percent efficient large pump to a 70 percent efficient

11 small pump.

12 I mean, it won't be complete comparable and

13 there will still be some speed and flow dependence of

14 that metric. So you can't completely not consider the

15 size, but that's true in other equipment, too. You

16 know, we know that smaller equipment just in general

17 is sometimes less efficient due to clearances and

18 tolerances and things like that.

19 So we could consider doing a denominator

20 here. I have a few slides about what that denominator

21 might be, but I'm going to stop right now and I

22 thought Gary had a question.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you, Sarah. I do.

2 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

3 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

4 So a lower PER is better?

5 MS. WIDDER: In the way the metric is

6 written right now, lower is better, sort of like golf.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Oh, okay. Well, you know,

8 if PER is going to mean pump efficiency rating --

9 MS. WIDDER: Pump energy. Sorry.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Oh, energy. Okay.

11 MS. WIDDER: I may have misspoke. My

12 mistake.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: You probably didn't. I

14 probably misheard it. I think it would be great if we

15 could get a higher number to be better, but I think

16 this is a very interesting approach and accomplishes a

17 lot of what I'd like to see.

18 MS. WIDDER: Thanks, Gary.

19 And I think if we move -- that's actually

20 one of the benefits potentially of considering a

21 denominator, is that it can now -- higher is better.

22 We can construct a denominator such that higher is
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1 better.

2 So with that, unless there's any other

3 questions, comments, yeah.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

5 MR. POWERS: Yeah, the question I have is to

6 go back to the first page. Sorry. Next one down. I'm

7 sorry.

8 MS. WIDDER: This one.

9 MR. POWERS: So when you put the word "pump"

10 in that very first equal sign to the left --

11 MS. WIDDER: Un-huh.

12 MR. POWERS: -- it really isn't pump. It's

13 the system.

14 MS. WIDDER: It's pump as we have defined it

15 for the purposes of applying standards.

16 MR. POWERS: But I think it will confuse

17 people because it's really if you consider the pump

18 and the motor and controls as the world looks at it

19 and everybody is wire to water, system, a lot of

20 variables.

21 MS. WIDDER: Right.

22 MR. POWERS: I'd have a problem with the
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1 word "pump," just to clarify.

2 MS. WIDDER: All right. Lucas, go unless

3 you want me to say something.

4 MR. POWERS: I'd like to add my --

5 MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes. Sorry, Chuck.

6 MR. POWERS: That's okay. Go on to the next

7 slide if you would please.

8 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

9 MR. POWERS: I don't know if the committee

10 agreed on the .25.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case, go ahead.

12 MR. CASE: We have a little bit of an issue.

13 Greg Case, HI.

14 We had a little bit of issue with the .25

15 point on throttle pumps, and you know about that.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, yeah, and actually I

17 think that's an -- those are good. In addition to the

18 denominator there are two other things that I'd like

19 to have discussions about, not all at once hopefully.

20 One will be whether these 25, 50, 75 and 100 percent

21 of BEP flow rates are the right load points or whether

22 they should be different. Should there be four or
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1 three?

2 We can have that discussion. This is just a

3 general construct, and then are the weighting, the .25

4 weighting -- equal weighting, is that appropriate or

5 should we come up with something different?

6 So those are two things to keep in mind,

7 more in the details, I would say, so that we can maybe

8 save this for later.

9 Yeah.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, Edison

11 Electric Institute.

12 On the last slide or on this slide, I

13 submitted some edits that were posted to say instead -

14 - if you go back to the previous slide --

15 MS. WIDDER: Oh, we should say driver, yes.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Diver, please.

17 And the next one, next slide, average input

18 energy and take out electric to be more fuel neutral.

19 MS. WIDDER: Thank you, Steve.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

21 Again, I keep saying this, and it seems

22 never to show up on the slides. Thank you.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll go to Al first and then

3 I'm coming back to Louis.

4 MR. HUBER: Is it not possible for the DOE

5 and/or their consultants to use an MEI for the bare

6 pump and an EEI or whatever you want to call it for

7 the -- the reason we don't want to put 25 percent in

8 there is because at full speed you won't be operating

9 the pump at 25 percent. It's not good for the pump,

10 and it's not within our operating allowances and

11 operating ranges suggested by the Hydraulic Institute

12 and just about every pump manufacturer will not have

13 it in there.

14 Now, I realize you might want it in there if

15 you go on variable speed, but if you're trying to use

16 one formula for everything, then we think it shouldn't

17 be there because at constant speed you wouldn't use

18 it.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

20 MR. HUBER: So the question is: is there a

21 compelling reason that we only have one formula?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.
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1 I agree with that. I think we'd be better

2 served if we could have more than one metric for

3 different circumstances, but I also understand that

4 may be difficult for DOE to do.

5 MS. WIDDER: Right. So I think there's one

6 just technical point to bring up, is that the .25

7 point, percent of BEP flow, load point is definitely

8 not set in stone, and we actually recognize that it's

9 probably not feasible on all pumps and needs to be

10 revised. So we can just ignore that 25 percent load

11 point.

12 And let's just talk about 50, 75 and 100 and

13 maybe we can consider others, but generally I

14 recognize your comment, Al, that some bare pumps, a

15 metric that just looked at the pump performance might

16 be more representative of the performance of that

17 product as it's being sold into the market.

18 The difficulty, so if we have like an MEI

19 for just bare pumps but then applied something like

20 this PER to pump plus motors and pump plus motor plus

21 controls, I don't know. We'd have to -- I'm not going

22 to speak for what we can do, but a difficulty from a
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1 technical perspective or just a logical perspective,

2 it would be difficult to compare the performance of

3 that bare pump to the pumps sold in other

4 configurations.

5 Now, that may or may not be relevant for the

6 purposes of this committee. You guys can decide

7 whether that's important, but you wouldn't be able to

8 capture the benefits of controls for that bare pump.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis first.

10 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with

11 NEEA.

12 I did something similar with what you did

13 there, except for distribution of hours I took a

14 normal curve.

15 MS. WIDDER: Right.

16 MR. STARR: So like for the weighting

17 factors, for 25 percent I've got like two percent and

18 12 percent for the next factor and 42 for the next one

19 or -- I'm sorry -- 37, 48 and 50.

20 So one way to think of it is if you do that

21 weighting factor, assume that your load curve

22 throughout the hours of the year is just a normal
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1 factor. Then all of a sudden what they are talking

2 about, I mean, the fact they are at 25 percent was

3 three percent. So very little hours are weighted

4 there.

5 Most of the hours are at the next load

6 points of 50 and 75, and it's like 37 percent. So I

7 just sort of added the hours.

8 MS. WIDDER: Right.

9 MR. STARR: I actually can show you what I

10 did.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

12 MR. STARR: But it's a different way of

13 doing it.

14 MS. WIDDER: And I think that makes sense

15 and may also, especially if we considered 50, 75 and

16 100 or maybe 50, 70, 100 and 110, that normal load

17 point would actually then sort of apex over the BEP,

18 which is -- or near it, you know, a little below, but

19 yeah. Go ahead.

20 MR. STARR: Well, in reality I don't know

21 that you necessarily want to get around BEP. You want

22 to get where the operation -- it's like if you were to
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1 go to any application. Where is the VFD?

2 And that's where you'd want to capture most

3 of your time at.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. STARR: So that's why the normalized

6 curve would -- I mean, essentially what I did is I

7 went in ASHRAE and looked for a building to see where

8 they have, and it basically is a normal curve, what

9 their distribution of hours are at different run

10 points, percentage of load.

11 And so that's why I chose that one, but --

12 MR. WIDDER: Yeah, makes sense, makes sense.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Al follow on.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And then I'm coming right

16 back to you.

17 Al.

18 MR. HUBER: We have no problem in one metric

19 as long as 25 is not in there.

20 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

21 MR. HUBER: If you want to add 110 --

22 MS. WIDDER: I'm just going to take it out
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1 right now so we can stop talking about it.

2 MR. HUBER: If you want to add 110, then

3 we're okay with that, too.

4 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: It's up to you, but the reason

6 110 was in there is that on the bare pumps and/or

7 pumps and motors we see in the field many times that

8 you're running at least ten percent beyond the best

9 efficiency point.

10 It's not really what you want to do, but we

11 see it all the time.

12 MS. WIDDER: Right.

13 MR. HUBER: So it's a reality of the

14 marketplace, and I guess that's what we're trying to

15 reflect.

16 MS. WIDDER: So I --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, wait a second.

18 MS. WIDDER: Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Al. That was very

20 helpful.

21 Now, Chuck, please, you're next. Thanks for

22 being patient.
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1 MR. POWERS: No problem. The question I

2 have in my earlier days I was a hydraulic designer.

3 Okay? And one of the things that we have to be

4 careful that all the pump guys would deal with is if

5 we're going to focus on BEP, right? Or whatever the

6 ruling is or the spread across that, right, and all of

7 a sudden somebody says, "Well," -- you know, I'll just

8 pick a number -- "we know BEP is 70 percent

9 efficiency. We all agree."

10 And by all the greatest minds in the world

11 maybe you get 70 and a half, maybe 71, whatever,

12 right? Which is a bare pump. Okay?

13 But if all of a sudden somebody says, "Yeah,

14 but we're going to evaluate this pump at .75, so

15 really we want you to change that efficiency, too,"

16 you know, when you do curve profiles and hydraulic

17 changes, you know, the load -- what's going to happen

18 is when you impact one point, it's going to change the

19 dynamics on the other, right, and you can change

20 dynamics on NPSH and a lot of factors in these pumps.

21 So what I'd be worried about is if we're

22 just taking the basic measurement, fine, but if we
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1 disqualify a pump because the BEP was okay to the

2 standard but the other points were not, we could

3 create a problem.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: The basic measurement is

5 there, too, Sarah, for ease of application in testing,

6 is it not?

7 MS. WIDDER: I'm not sure I understand.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.

9 MR. ADIN: Let me see if I can --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

11 MR. ADIN: -- help clarify a little bit. I

12 might be misunderstanding what you're saying, Chuck,

13 but at least the way that we have it up here you would

14 use the overall measurement to compare it. The

15 standard would be based on that overall profile,

16 right? So those, a single number that's generated

17 using those weighted points, and the pump would be

18 compared to that number not each individual point.

19 So it wouldn't -- it wouldn't fail one and

20 pass another. It would have to pass an overall

21 weighted and an overall weighted value. Is that not

22 what you were saying?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, please.

2 MR. POWERS: What I'm trying to say is if a

3 product that we design, we start with the best

4 efficiency point, and then you work the pump, you

5 know, with we call it peaking efficiencies or broader

6 curves or we, you know, look at the dynamics of the

7 entire product.

8 And if the peaking point is, you know, .7

9 and the other factors are lower than that obviously,

10 but then when you add them all up, they equal this

11 overall. The problem is if one of the ones down on

12 the right, you know, impede you enough that even

13 though your BEP is perfect, you're going to bring the

14 whole thing down and you're either going to disqualify

15 a pump or there's going to have to be a lot of work,

16 and then you're going to suffer in other areas of the

17 product to make it not as effective as a unit.

18 MR. ADIN: Right. Okay. I understand what

19 you mean now.

20 MR. POWERS: We've got to be careful. I'm

21 not --

22 MR. ADIN: Right.
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1 MR. POWERS: -- I'm just saying we've got to

2 be really careful on how we -- how we qualify this.

3 MR. ADIN: And that's fine. That's

4 something that we'll need to evaluate more closely

5 once we start gathering data on actual pump

6 performance and all that. I mean, what we have up

7 here, you know, as we've stated a number of times,

8 it's just a suggestion. We can deliberate about all

9 of the individual points, how they should be weighted,

10 et cetera, and the actual implications of using a

11 metric like this in terms of how specific pumps would

12 conceivably meet a standard or what have you, but,

13 yeah, that's something we'll just want to evaluate.

14 MR. POWERS: And then I'll just leave it

15 with engineered products. We deal with this every

16 day.

17 MR. ADMIN: Right.

18 MR. POWERS: But standard run of the mill by

19 the thousands, it's a different ballgame.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So we're talking about a

21 construct here, right? This is the basic frame.

22 MR. ADIN: Well, and just to finish that
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1 point, Doug.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, please, yes.

3 MR. ADIN: You know, I mean, I think we're

4 all in agreement on this, but you know, we're not

5 concerned just with operation at BEP because pumps

6 don't always operate at BEP. We want something that

7 reflects, you know, the range of conditions under

8 which they'd be used in the real world. So that's

9 really what we're trying to get across, I think.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock, then back

11 to Greg.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

13 Just being the appliance geek that I am I

14 would have to point out that for all motors whether

15 large or small, DOE has decided that the efficiency

16 metric and the test procedure just based on full load,

17 even though a lot of motors are hardly ever used at

18 full load, it varies by product whether it's just one

19 rating point at one loading factor or I'll say a

20 seasonal or a variable load type of thing like SEER

21 for central air conditioners or HSPF. That's more of

22 a seasonal type of thing.
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1 But for motors it's a full load efficiency

2 metric and that's it.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, it seems as though Tom

4 has got a follow-on comment related to Steve's

5 allegation.

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

8 That's not an allegation. That's just a

9 statement of --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm just kidding. I'm just -

11 -

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm wide awake this

14 morning.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a representation of the

16 way this thing works. So, Tom, follow on. Go ahead.

17 MR. ECKMAN: Well, that may be true. I

18 think we have the advantage here of being able to

19 treat this as a system, and I think everybody in this

20 room agrees that the real benefit here is to get the

21 system right, not just the individual components.

22 And this metric allows us to take advantage
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1 of that, and however we decide what those actual

2 points are, the concept here is to be able to take

3 advantage of system efficiencies, and this is a great

4 step forward in order to get that happen.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Several people wish to speak

6 approximately in this order: Greg, maybe Paul, back

7 to Lucas, and then maybe Mark. Greg first.

8 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

9 I was just going to suggest that we hear

10 more of how Sarah wants to make this metric work. We

11 are particularly interested in what the bare pump

12 metric looks like, how you're going to process this

13 data to be able to find a bare pump efficiency level,

14 and that's what all of these comments are really

15 about, and we don't know how you plan to do that yet.

16 So --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. CASE: -- we may all be speaking a

19 little too early.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So these comments, the

21 truncated comments, Paul first.

22 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal.
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1 Just maybe as a reference, Steve, the fan

2 efficiency rating for the furnace fan does take into

3 account other speeds other than the full rating --

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Understood. Steve

5 Rosenstock. I understood. I was just talking about

6 the match.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And Lucas. Thanks for the

8 follow-on.

9 MR. ADIN: So the motor standards as I'm

10 sure you're aware are written into statute. So

11 Congress essentially told DOE which metric would have

12 to be used. So in this case we do have more

13 flexibility. We're able to decide which metric we

14 think is appropriate, and so we have that advantage

15 with this product.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thanks. Steve Rosenstock.

18 Yeah, but also DOE has decided now or

19 recently that, you know, it was a SEER metric for

20 central air conditioning. Now it's SEER and EER. So

21 you know.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: For certain parts of the

2 country.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's let -- based on

4 Greg's invitation, let's let Sarah keep going.

5 MS. WIDDER: Okay. And based on Greg's

6 question, I will discuss particularly where the

7 variables come from. I do want to keep in mind, and I

8 think getting into those details is important; I do

9 want to keep in mind and come back to maybe at the end

10 of the discussion today what are the appropriate load

11 points; what are the appropriate weightings.

12 I think if we're all okay with the general

13 construct once I've discussed the variables, those

14 types of questions, getting them resolved today would

15 be really great.

16 So and then the denominator, which I will --

17 do you want to talk about where the variables come

18 from or the denominator? Anybody? Any have --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

21 I think we -- you can present it in any form

22 you want.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

2 MR. CASE: Or any order, however you're set

3 up, but I think a lot of the questions that we were

4 throwing back were based on our lack of understanding

5 on how you were going to come up with, for lack of a

6 better term, an MEI value.

7 MS. WIDDER: Right.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'd just like to suggest

9 last time we had a lot of back-and-forth like this,

10 and the way we diminished that was to give her a

11 chance to actually present for a while. So let's let

12 Sarah do that.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you enlarge that?

15 MS. WIDDER: Yep, I will do that. I will

16 make it large.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: And let's let her present

18 however much she wants to present, Sarah.

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So I think the way that

20 I'm going to do this is just the way the slides are

21 laid out now. I'm going to talk through the

22 denominator options because that is one of the, I
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1 think, larger issues about what we want to have,

2 higher better or lower better and what that

3 denominator is.

4 And then I'll talk through some example of

5 where the variables would come from and how bare pump

6 performance is captured for the different I'll just

7 call them equipment types for now, bare pump, bare

8 pump plus motor - driver, bare pump plus driver and

9 controls.

10 So just thinking about the denominator for a

11 little bit, there's a couple of things to consider

12 when you're comparing having a denominator versus not

13 having a denominator. We can make the final PER,

14 whatever we determine to call it, the final metric

15 dimensionless if we use a denominator. It becomes

16 more like an efficiency and higher is better.

17 The denominator -- the no denominator

18 approach that we discussed earlier is a very strong

19 function of speed and flow. You know, with larger

20 pumps you're going to use more energy to move more

21 fluid. That's obvious, and if we use a denominator

22 that is representative of either hydraulic pump power
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1 for that pump or something that scales the metric to

2 the size of the pump, we can have it be a weaker

3 function of flow and specific speed. It won't be

4 removed entirely, but just like efficiency, it's not

5 removed entirely. Larger equipment is very often more

6 efficient because of economies of scale.

7 The benefit of having a denominator is it

8 would make the EEI or the PER, this metric, more

9 comparable across pumps of different sizes, whereas

10 the no denominator approach, the same pump, a larger

11 pump and a smaller pump could maybe serve the same

12 design intent, design purpose, but the larger pump

13 would have a larger PER. And so that would just be

14 something -- I mean there's intelligent people

15 specking pumps hopefully and they can recognize that,

16 and the PER is used to demonstrate compliance with the

17 standard, but it would be more difficult to compare

18 the PER for a pump that was slightly larger or

19 slightly smaller that could meet the same design

20 intent or the same application.

21 But the negative part of having a

22 denominator is the way the EU has proposed to have an
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1 EEI is the denominator is a reference pump efficiency.

2 So if we go back here, we would have the denominator

3 be just P ref., P-1 ref., and it would represent a

4 nominal motor efficiency, any efficiency that we want

5 to account for standardized controls, and a nominal

6 pump efficiency, which would be like the baseline MEI

7 if we were going to set a pump efficiency or pump

8 power input at BEP.

9 So it would be pump power input accounting

10 for motor efficiency and standardized driver

11 efficiencies. So it would just be like a baseline

12 value for a pump of that size and specific speed.

13 And it will be analytically more difficult

14 for us to do that because we don't have the MEI to

15 start with. So there's a couple of options that we

16 can use to get around that. So these are four options

17 that we have just been kicking around and thinking

18 about.

19 The first is power -- this is similar to

20 what HI proposed in their comments -- power

21 consumption of the same pump in an uncontrolled

22 system. We might as well really not talk about that
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1 one because it only represents the benefit of controls

2 for that pump. It normalizes out the performance of

3 that given pump, and so it's not really helpful for

4 comparing one pump to another. So we'll just write

5 that one off.

6 The next one is reference shaft power for a

7 minimally compliant bare pump with minimally compliant

8 motor. This is what's done in the EU. It does result

9 in a value between zero and one where higher is

10 better, and it clearly indicates the performance of

11 the pump relative to some established baseline.

12 The difficulty is that it requires

13 designation of that minimally compliant pump

14 inherently. So that's where the MEI would come in

15 potentially to this metric, and depending on how we

16 set it, it may over or under represent the baseline

17 performance for some pumps.

18 But that is definitely a viable approach.

19 Some of these other approaches are similar to that. So

20 instead of taking a reference shaft power we could

21 basically set the reference to be a market average. So

22 look out at pump performance generally as we see it in
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1 the United States for the scope of pumps we're

2 considering for this rulemaking, and then tie it to an

3 either market average motor or a minimally compliant

4 motor.

5 Then the EEI now is not necessarily zero to

6 one, but it indicates the performance of the pump

7 relative to the rest of the market. So it's more

8 comparable to where we are right now. The negative

9 thing is that it ties the pump market to a point in

10 time or it would need to be revised periodically, and

11 so it's not as clean, I would say, as the previous

12 approach.

13 And then the last approach, which I would

14 say is the easiest to implement, but is theoretically

15 less logical is having a denominator of just the

16 tested pump's hydraulic power output at BEP, and so

17 it's a way of normalizing to the size and the power

18 output of the pump, but we don't then need that

19 reference pump performance or the pump efficiency sort

20 of is now no longer in the denominator. You still are

21 accounting for the pump efficiency in the numerator,

22 in the power inputs, but you have -- so if we go back
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1 to this equation, these P-1 across the top would be

2 the power input to the pump inclusive of motors and

3 controls and then underneath would be hydraulic power

4 at BEP.

5 So in a way it would be a weighted

6 efficiency of the entire system. Since pump

7 efficiency is input power over hydraulic output power,

8 and the nice thing, it's just analytically a little

9 bit easier because we don't need to specify that MEI

10 first, but it would not be zero to one necessarily. It

11 might be a little bit -- it won't be zero to one

12 because you can't get 100 percent.

13 But that's sort of like efficiency, and then

14 there would be lower PER ratings for smaller pumps

15 just because lower capacity equipment is inherently

16 less efficient, but that's again something we deal

17 with with other equipment and efficiency metrics.

18 So those are the denominator options. I

19 don't know if we want to have -- it looks like we want

20 to have some discussion about that. But we will get

21 to the variables, Greg, I promise.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 Again, I know you talked about Europe, but

3 are they doing the same thing for non-electric drivers

4 in these equations?

5 MS. WIDDER: I do not believe that they are

6 addressing non-electric drivers.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Because I believe

8 that -- again, Steve Rosenstock, EEI -- that again,

9 these equations should just be modified mainly

10 compliant driver as well and it be any driver, and you

11 could just still use these formulas.

12 And the second thing, and again, the other

13 thing I wanted to say is you're still assuming that

14 the numerator is what you had on the previous page,

15 right? This is just the denominator for the whole

16 formula.

17 MS. WIDDER: Right, right.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because the reason I ask

19 that is that, again, if as we go down this path it

20 could be that, you know, if we do different metrics

21 for different configurations, one metric for bare

22 pump, one metric for bare pump plus driver, a third
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1 metric for bare pump plus driver plus controls, some

2 of these denominators might change based on the

3 manufactured configuration, right?

4 MS. WIDDER: If we wanted to consider

5 different metrics for each pump configuration,

6 certainly the numerator and denominator or lack of

7 denominator could be different for those cases. This

8 is, as you said, considering the same numerator, and

9 then any one of these denominators for all three

10 configurations.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

14 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with

15 NEEA.

16 I had a thought about -- mine was probably

17 too simple for the denominator option, but I

18 envisioned just using the same weighting factor for a

19 pump that you throttle and you divide it by a pump

20 that has VFD, and you divide those two. Then you have

21 an MEI.

22 So if you had it with just a bare pump,
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1 you'd have an MEI rating and then you had it with a

2 VFD, you would see what the factor is with the VFD. So

3 it splits the motor. It gets the motor separated, and

4 the VFD and the motor are together separate from the

5 pump.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right.

7 MR. STARR: So it kind of gives the market

8 the idea here's the benefit of what a VFD is, and then

9 to get more detailed information about motors you can

10 get some of those elements that are separate from the

11 pump. So you just get a pump and then you look at the

12 other elements separately.

13 MS. WIDDER: And that's just how the EU is

14 proposing to do it. They have the MEI, which is

15 representative of pump performance, and then the EEI

16 is just a you described it, a controlled -- the

17 controlled power input at those load points, and then

18 the uncontrolled system at those same load points, and

19 so it's zero to one, benefits of motor and controls,

20 and that's actually the top.

21 I mean it could be we could modify the top

22 and the top one to have not just one power but, you
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1 know, power at each of the loading points. So this

2 top row here could represent that power consumption at

3 the same pump in an uncontrolled system, but then it's

4 like you said, just representative of the benefit of

5 motor controls for that pump.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

7 MR. LIN: Maybe just a comment.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: A little closer.

9 MR. LIN: Maybe just a comment from other

10 rulemakings. A denominator option, a max flow rate so

11 you'd normalize it to performance, that's been ruled

12 out or looked at?

13 MS. WIDDER: A max flow rate?

14 MR. LIN: Right. So with the pump you

15 divide it up as a denominator?

16 MS. WIDDER: Like flow in gallons?

17 MR. LIN: Right.

18 MS. WIDDER: That, so then we would wind up

19 with units of horsepower per gallons.

20 MR. LIN: Right.

21 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Yep, that could

22 definitely be considered also. It would not account
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1 for different head -- the different heads that's

2 provided by different designs of pumps, but that's

3 very similar maybe to the bottom row where we're

4 talking about hydraulic output. It could be maximum

5 hydraulic output or hydraulic output at BEP where

6 that's just the flow and head condition at that BEP

7 point or maximum hydraulic output point.

8 But, yes, it could be flow also.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

10 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

11 The problem there would be our data

12 collection so far doesn't allow you to have maximum

13 flow rate.

14 MS. WIDDER: Right. I mean, yes. So for

15 maximum flow rate, we would have to collect more data

16 in order to do analysis.

17 MR. CASE: Or maximum horsepower or -- yeah.

18 MS. WIDDER: Well, and we have been talking

19 a lot about BEP, which is another reason we are

20 sticking around that --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr and then we're

22 back to you Chuck.
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1 MR. STARR: One of things I envision is that

2 if you have a number of pieces of information that are

3 kind of very modular, like MEI, you just have a pump

4 and then you have something that indicates what the

5 VFD and the driver are together, and then you have

6 another thing that -- I mean, you can communicate on

7 many different levels like where you have kilowatt

8 hours a year and then there's different pieces that

9 you could put together so like a design engineer or

10 actually not even a design engineer, but someone

11 that's maybe a buying, a procuring agent in a company.

12 MS. WIDDER: Right.

13 MR. STARR: Or they could have a number of

14 elements that sort of on many ways could communicate

15 many different aspects. So I think instead of trying

16 to capture it all in one, I mean, you would use one

17 metric maybe but have different information that kind

18 of informs the buyer whether that be an engineer or

19 someone that's not.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.

21 MR. POWERS: Yes. A question, Sarah. Is

22 the MEI, just looking at my notes, related to the pump
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1 type, the size, which was the flow at BEP, specific

2 speed, which then takes on the characteristics of --

3 MS. WIDDER: Un-huh.

4 MR. POWERS: -- hydraulics and the

5 variations, which by the way also takes into

6 consideration the head in a way, right? And then

7 there is a prediction on that on efficiency cutoff,

8 right?

9 And then, again, that's at the part load,

10 full load, and over. What concerns me is some of the

11 statements you made that I get the impression that the

12 formula is, the way you want it, that there's some

13 huge gain on pump, and it's really the system in

14 total. You know, there might be bigger gains between

15 the motor and the drive system and all. The pump may

16 have minor, but at the end of the day it's the system,

17 right?

18 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So you mean that there's

19 potentially better -- there's more opportunity for

20 improvement from the motor and controls than from just

21 the pump.

22 MR. POWERS: Right, and the way you related
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1 it or some comments you made that, you know, that it

2 indicates performance of the pump that would improve,

3 and I'm worried about people think there's huge gains

4 or something, right?

5 MS. WIDDER: I think that's a really good

6 point and a really excellent segue into the next point

7 where we talk about where the variables come from, but

8 first Steve had a comment.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: One more quick, Steve.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

11 Again, there was -- and I'm just thinking

12 about Gary's charts from yesterday -- it was GPM per

13 kilowatt hour or GPM per BTU is another possible way

14 of -- again, we're throwing out all of these possible

15 metrics.

16 MS. WIDDER: Un-huh.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, for a pump plus a

18 driver, that could be another possibility or you have

19 -- again, he showed the system curves. You know, we

20 have a fan efficiency rating now --

21 MS. WIDDER: Right.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- at ASHRAE, which is
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1 basically a system curve. So that could also be

2 another -- again, as another possibility down the line

3 for consideration by the group.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So you were making a segue to

5 the next slide.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right. I'm just going to

7 respond to that really quickly. So, yes, we certainly

8 could consider essentially flipping the metric and

9 then something like hydraulic output power would go on

10 the top or just flow. Again, we'd need to account for

11 head in some way because those are both very

12 important. So I would maybe recommend a hydraulic

13 output power on the top and then the load points on

14 the bottom.

15 But I think that we'll keep those all in

16 mind. We've thought somewhat about this metric and

17 think that this accomplishes our purposes pretty well

18 for analysis, but I think that if there's suggestions

19 particularly about why a, for example, gallons per BTU

20 metric would be beneficial, that is what would be

21 helpful.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'll explain.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

3 You know, for the consumers, it's a metric

4 that the consumer will be able to understand, be able

5 to do cross-comparisons against at an easily -- you

6 know, for example, you have a system that needs 100

7 gallons per minute of flow.

8 MS. WIDDER: Un-huh.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You have various options,

10 whether it's, you know, non-electric or electric

11 driver. Okay. System A does 100 gallons per minute

12 per kilowatt hour. System B does 50 gallons per

13 minute per kilowatt hour.

14 Well, okay. System B using that metric will

15 use twice as much energy as System A. The same on the

16 BTU side, it's a way for a customer to easily cross17 compare products.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: In terms that they'll

20 understand.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

22 I think we want to keep staying at the
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1 conceptual level here to the extent possible.

2 Al Huber.

3 MR. HUBER: In general --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: In general.

5 MR. HUBER: In general, the --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Although ...

7 MR. HUBER: -- pump industry prefers to stay

8 as closely aligned as possible with what the EU has

9 done --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

11 MR. HUBER: -- for a lot of reasons. One of

12 the large ones is that we all manufacture on both

13 continents or many of us do; a great deal of us do.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

15 MR. HUBER: And we would try to -- we would

16 like to see the metrics as close as possible.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

18 MR. HUBER: Trying to rate something at

19 BTUs, while that may be great for circulators, which

20 are used in heating and cooling, not necessarily very

21 good for municipal, industrial and other applications.

22 So what we're trying to do here, I think, is
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1 come up with a metric that is good for all

2 applications, and what this does, it compares the same

3 pump type with the same pump type. If Pump A from

4 Company B are the same type pumps, then they're both

5 rated. You can look at -- you could look at their MEI

6 or whatever you want to call it, PER, and if one is

7 better than the other one, then you can make a

8 determination that, hey, I'd rather have this one

9 because it's got a better energy rating.

10 And if one is better than the other one,

11 then you can make a determination that, hey, I'd

12 rather have this one because it has got a better

13 energy rating.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

15 MR. HUBER: And I think that's what we're

16 after here.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. HUBER: But we need a -- because there's

19 a lot of different applications and a lot of ways you

20 can measure things. It would be better, we believe,

21 to be consistent.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So now I'm going to move

2 on to the details of where the MEI fits in and where

3 some of these variables are coming from. Unfortunately

4 I'm going to have to talk a lot, and I don't have

5 really detailed slides at this point. Maybe I'll use

6 that whiteboard, too, to make sure that we all

7 understand how this might work.

8 I'm going to continue to use the equation at

9 least general construct that is represented on this

10 slide, recognizing that some of the same variables

11 could fit into another construct the same way.

12 So for a bare pump, if we consider -- for a

13 bare pump, if we consider the PER metric wanting to

14 capture the pump performance and standardized motor

15 efficiency and maybe controls, the only thing we're

16 going to measure is the pump performance data.

17 These two things will be from a table and

18 will just be applied into the equation. Do I have an

19 example of that? Yes, okay.

20 So we'll use this one. So in this equation,

21 the P1 value that we saw before has now been split

22 into a numerator and a denominator. These numerators
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1 are pump shaft power input at the load points divided

2 by the motor efficiency.

3 And this could be motor efficiency at these

4 particular load points or in the case of a bare pump

5 what would happen or what we're considering is just

6 using the pump power input at the load points that we

7 determine and taking the nominal full load efficiency

8 from DOE's CFR standard table based on the either 120

9 percent plus of the BEP flow rate or hydraulic output.

10 We can decide how to size the motor in a standardized

11 way so everyone is picking the same number, but let's

12 say it's 93 percent efficient, minimally compliant

13 motor would be paired with this pump.

14 So we would plug 93 percent into each of

15 those motor efficiency variables. The pump power

16 would be different and measured for that pump using

17 something like HI's 14.6 or the new 40.6, sweeping the

18 pump curve just the way it's always done, and then the

19 weightings would be applied based on what we decide

20 they should be.

21 And you just add that all up and that's your

22 PER for a bare pump. You just test the pump just like
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1 you always do, but we're inserting pump power input

2 instead of efficiency.

3 And if we were to include a denominator,

4 say, denominator is hydraulic power, then now you have

5 -- now you're creating much more like a weighted

6 efficiency metric.

7 So that is what would happen for the bare

8 pump. If we go to a pump plus motor -- yep, there we

9 go -- okay. So a pump plus motor, bare pump plus

10 motor, it would be very, very similar except for now

11 we're taking the manufacturer motor efficiency that

12 the pump is paired with, and so if we go back to this

13 equation, instead of 93 percent we would look up the

14 name plate efficiency of the pump -- of the motor

15 that's paired with that bare pump. Let's say it's a

16 95 percent NEMA efficiency in this case.

17 Now we have 95 percent on the denominator in

18 each of those four fractions, and our PER without a

19 denominator is lower, which is better in this

20 construct.

21 But if we -- yes, Steve, you had a question.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
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1 My only thought was at different loadings,

2 so the motor efficiency will also be lower.

3 MS. WIDDER: That is an excellent point, and

4 something that we have definitely considered. I don't

5 know if it's on here. So that's something we've

6 talked about a lot. There is a couple ways that we

7 can account for that. I'll discuss all three of them,

8 and then the committee can consider it, and then I'm

9 going to go to the motor and controls case just so we

10 can finish the examples, and then sort of open it up.

11 So for the motor there's a number of ways we

12 could account for losses. One is we don't account for

13 losses. We just assume they're zero, that there's the

14 same efficiency at all the load points. We know

15 that's inaccurate, but it's applied consistently to

16 all pumps or all pump plus motors. So it's consistent

17 among pumps. It's also the easiest.

18 Another approach that we've considered

19 that's minimally burdensome is to have a standardized

20 loss equation. It would be a little bit more

21 accurate. You would account for the losses as you

22 move down the - down loading on the motor, and it
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1 would still be consistent across all pumps or pumps

2 plus motors. You just have some equation that you

3 plus the full load efficiency into and get, you know,

4 essentially get what the reduction is at these

5 different load points.

6 It would improve accuracy a little bit, but

7 you know, you wouldn't be able to differentiate

8 different efficiency curves for different motors.

9 The most burdensome approach obviously is to

10 test your motor at these load points. That is another

11 thing that could be considered. It would increase

12 burden significantly, and in the nameplate, in the

13 cases where you can just use the motor and nameplate,

14 actually no motor testing is required at all, even if

15 you're selling a pump and a motor. You can just look

16 up the motor nameplate, put it on your pump, and away

17 you go.

18 Yes.

19 MR. STARR: Would there be possibly another

20 option, is that for different motor technologies you

21 had different equations?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Louis Starr.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yes, that is certainly another

2 option, that for different motor technologies we could

3 have different loss curves if that was warranted and

4 we had sufficient data to create said loss curves.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: It's kind of like we should

6 be trying to list the characteristics, and we're

7 trying to --

8 MS. WIDDER: List the characteristics?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That we're trying to put

10 together here.

11 MS. WIDDER: Oh, yes. No, I have a list at

12 the end.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Because we keep diving deep

16 and then surfacing.

17 MS. WIDDER: We do, and I have all these.

18 We'll come back to it.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MS. WIDDER: We will.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

22 MS. WIDDER: And, Lucas, did you want to add
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1 something or can I -- okay.

2 I'm going to move on to the motor, pump and

3 controls example. Then we'll be done and then we'll

4 get to that summary slide and be able to have more

5 discussion about these things.

6 So bare pump, motor, and controls, same as

7 the bare pump plus motor case where we plug in pump

8 power input in the numerator of these fractions. The

9 drive efficiency in this denominator is

10 representative. So this slide is -- I wish I had the

11 other slides -- this slide could be a little bit

12 different.

13 So I'm going to change it as we're talking

14 here because I think that will help us. So let me

15 increase this so you can see it.

16 There's a couple ways that this could work.

17 Let me go up. Number one is just like this. This

18 drive efficiency is an efficiency representative of

19 the motor and the drive together, applied to the pump

20 power input to get a power input to the system. That's

21 what the fraction is representative of at each of

22 those load points and weighted.
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1 To do that we would need drive efficiency,

2 which is -- there's a test procedure that AHRI has

3 developed that we've discussed previously, AHRI-1210.

4 That data is not widely available yet. It's not

5 widely used, and so that might be a technical hurdle

6 towards implementing something like this.

7 Another approach that we've considered is

8 instead to continue to have this efficiency be

9 representative of the motor -- oh, that's not what I

10 meant to do -- anyways, have this efficiency be

11 representative of the motor and then take this whole

12 thing and then multiply it by a -- I came up with the

13 term "load control factor," but essentially use the

14 affinity laws to determine what the reduced -- what

15 the benefit of controls would be, and it's a purely

16 analytical approach for representing the benefit of

17 controls in the PER metric.

18 So you can think through how that might go.

19 We can take the power input to the pump. BEP would

20 stay the same. The power input at .75 would be

21 reduced by the cube of the speed essentially. Same at

22 the other reduced loading points. The motor
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1 efficiency would either be the same or adjusted based

2 on our loss equation, and a ratio of those two values

3 would come up with some savings you get from applying

4 controls.

5 In a couple example calculations I have done

6 just follow the affinity laws and these loading

7 points, it's about .46 or .5, and so as a purely

8 analytical approach to representing the benefit of

9 controls, you could just do what we did for -- take

10 what you would get if you were just selling the bare

11 pump as a pump plus motor, and if you're putting

12 controls on and you're selling it with controls, just

13 multiply the whole thing by .46, .5. We can determine

14 what the appropriate load control factor is. You have

15 a better number, and that's what you sell your pump

16 under.

17 We could still include a denominator, but

18 essentially its' a credit for controls. The benefit

19 is it's easy to apply. We could have different load

20 control factors for different control technologies.

21 We'd have to come up with a list of what those control

22 technologies were that we wanted to account for, but
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1 that could be done.

2 The negative thing is there's no real

3 verification of the control performance, and there's

4 no differentiation between a better performing or

5 worse performing control of the same type. So this is

6 a description of essentially the three, you know, back

7 to talking about how we might characterize drive

8 performance with controls.

9 I just talked through the calculation method

10 at the top where we have some factor we account for,

11 controls performance with A. B would be something

12 similar to applying AHRI 1210 where we have drive,

13 rated drive efficiency in some format, and that goes

14 in the denominator, and then C is, of course, wire to

15 water testing. We're familiar with that, but

16 recognize that it's extremely burdensome considering

17 all the different combinations of equipment that one

18 could have.

19 So that is how we've been thinking about the

20 metric and where the variables would come from. One

21 thing I will say about how MEI fits into this is the

22 way MEI -- I mean, aside from the fact that we might
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1 have a reference MEI in the denominator, in the

2 numerator MEI is essentially pump efficiency at three

3 load points.

4 And I mean, if we really wanted to have MEI

5 in there, we could say instead of BEP, it would be MEI

6 BEP divided by pump hydraulic output or something to

7 get the power input, right? Or times; it would be

8 times pump hydraulic output because it's efficiency

9 times the pump's hydraulic output would get you the

10 power rating.

11 So Alison is trying to say something.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: (Speaking from an unmiked

13 location.)

14 MS. WIDDER: Oh, it is?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Find a microphone.

16 MS. WIDDER: Alison says it's in one of the

17 next slides. Oh, here we go.

18 So, yeah, this is very small. So let me

19 make it a little bit bigger so we can see it.

20 So this is the same PER equation, but it's

21 sort of rearranged where now pump efficiency is on the

22 bottom and hydraulic output power is on the top with
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1 the motor efficiency. So this is the same equation

2 for a pump, a bare pump or pump plus motor, but then

3 now you're seeing where the pump efficiency could fit

4 in instead of just pump input power.

5 So now I'm going to go back to these issues

6 that I told you I was keeping a list of, Doug, and we

7 can talk about any one of them. We welcome comments.

8 So these are the things that I think we need to

9 discuss.

10 I'm going to add the motor losses right now.

11 Steve.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

13 I appreciate this, but you know, in terms of

14 metrics to vote on, I think we need to list everything

15 that's out there, MEI, EEI, gallons per minute per

16 energy input, energy input per gallons per minute.

17 This committee can decide what it wants to

18 recommend. So I appre --

19 MS. WIDDER: That's completely correct.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And, again, other metrics

21 might have other advantages or disadvantages for this

22 whole group to look at and decide upon.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: But let me note that we're a

2 long way from voting on this at this point.

3 Greg or -- pardon me -- Charlie.

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT.

5 So a couple things I wanted to kind of just

6 put on the table here. There's a lot of complexity to

7 what's presented here, and to translate that into what

8 we do as pump manufacturers, you know, I think we

9 could get there, but it's pretty complex, and the

10 people around this table -- and we've seen it all. We

11 can kind of wrap our heads around it, but I'm sitting

12 here trying to think of, okay, how are we going to

13 take that and then communicate that across our own

14 organizations and then educate the users who can be a

15 wide range from somebody who's buying, you know, a

16 sump pump or all the way up to somebody who's a

17 sophisticated contractor.

18 And the things that keep coming to mind for

19 me are the things that people generally understand

20 today in the marketplace are, one, they understand

21 pump efficiency, and that's a pretty widely understood

22 concept, and the MEI basically ties to pump
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1 efficiency. So that's one of the things I think you

2 want to keep in mind, is there's an advantage to the

3 MEI, is it already relates to things that people who

4 are dealing with this kind of equipment already

5 understand. I think they can wrap their heads around

6 that.

7 The other thing that people understand --

8 and Louis mentioned it earlier -- is they understand

9 things like annual operating cost, and whether that's

10 your television or a pump or whatever, and one of the

11 questions I had, and I think it kind of goes to Lucas,

12 is as we move forward with this from a goal

13 standpoint, is it possible to separate and regulate

14 something from a labeling standpoint versus the actual

15 regulating the performance of equipment.

16 And where I'm going with that, so just bear

17 with me, is what I have a hard time wrapping my head

18 around is when we get into the complexities of the

19 system is how do you regulate around that.

20 I can understand how you would label around

21 that, where you could say, look, for these different

22 scenarios, this scenario because a customer may have -
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1 - they understand their system. They have a Scenario

2 A. Another customer might have Scenario B, and you

3 can label that and give the customer information so

4 they can make a good decision.

5 But figuring out how you regulate that, I'm

6 still having a hard time wrapping my head around it,

7 and maybe the rest of the team here can help me with

8 that.

9 So the MEI piece is very -- that's something

10 you can regulate. We've already proven you can

11 regulate that, and so I'm just looking for some help

12 here in terms of is it possible to separate those two

13 in terms of regulation from the labeling standpoint so

14 everybody is calculating something like annual energy

15 usage the same way so that you're comparing things,

16 and people do that today.

17 I mean, a lot of our customers will do that

18 today. They look at annual energy usage and then make

19 purchasing decisions based on that.

20 MR. ADIN: So let me see if I can make sure

21 I'm clear on what you're asking. It sounds like --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.
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1 MR. ADIN: Thanks, Doug.

2 -- the question is -- I get used to assuming

3 everyone knows who I am, but yeah.

4 It sounds like the question is essentially

5 if you're going to have a metric that is used for

6 comparing a given product to a standard, you're going

7 to write an efficiency or energy consumption standard

8 for these products and have a number that's used to

9 compare that product to the standard for the purposes

10 of compliance, but may not necessarily communicate

11 very useful information to a customer about the

12 product or a comparison between that product and

13 another one.

14 But you know there's another number that is

15 useful for that purpose. Can you have both numbers

16 and have one on the label and one for the standard?

17 That has issues for DOE's side. It would be

18 certainly preferable. I'm not even sure. Well, we'd

19 have to have some deliberation on our side, and maybe

20 we could, you know, address that today, but it would

21 be preferable to have a single number that can

22 accomplish both. I think that's really what we were
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1 trying to get to with this, and it sounds like there's

2 still some questions around the table about whether

3 this can serve that purpose, how useful a number like

4 this really would be to consumers, and that's

5 understood.

6 I mean, I completely understand that

7 argument. It is, in fact, our goal with any number

8 that we pick to be able to communicate useful

9 information to consumers. We want to be able to do

10 that.

11 We're really trying to -- well, there's

12 actually kind of three parts, I think, from the way

13 that I look at this anyway. One of them is supplying

14 useful information to consumers in the metric. One is

15 comparing to a standard, and then the other is having

16 a metric that is minimally burdensome to obtain. So

17 that's the testing part of it.

18 You know, we started talking about that a

19 little bit, but so there's these three dimensions that

20 we have to work with all at the same time, and we'd

21 have to think a little bit about in practical terms

22 how we'll accomplish that.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's let Charlie follow on.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: To me it kind of gets back

3 to a point that Doug made, and that's, you know, one

4 of the things that it's still not real clear to me, is

5 kind of the high level -- we could articulate the high

6 level end goals of what we want to really accomplish

7 with the metrics in what we're doing here. We've kind

8 of touched on it, but you know, easy to understand.

9 You know, the energy savings goals, how do we want to

10 -- I mean, it's some of those high level principles

11 that I think you've got to kind of bounce some of

12 these concepts off of because, again, there's a lot of

13 complexity here that we've got to try and figure out.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock and then to

15 Al.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

17 You talked about labeling. You know,

18 there's an FTC program for consumer products that are

19 regulated by DOE. We call them the yellow energy

20 guide labels. So you'll see an estimated annual

21 energy usage and annual energy cost.

22 I don't believe there's a similar
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1 requirement for commercial products, commercial2 industrial products. The labels -- what?

3 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl, and Lucas can

4 explain it, but there is in Section 6315 labeling

5 provisions, and Energy Department does that rather

6 than FTC.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

8 MR. ADIN: Right. So I'll articulate that a

9 little bit more clearly, hopefully. Right.

10 So FTC handles the labeling - by statute

11 they have authority to do the labeling for consumer

12 products. We're in the commercial section. We have a

13 specific labeling provision in EPCA that deals with

14 these issues, and this actually gets back to Charlie's

15 point.

16 But so at a minimum whatever we decide is

17 going to be the metric for the standard, that number

18 would have to be on the label. The statute requires

19 that. So if we pick a metric for a standard, you have

20 to use that on the label, but DOE can also write into

21 the rule a specified, prescribed way for calculating

22 things like annual energy costs or annual energy use,
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1 and that could also be used on a label in addition to

2 that other number.

3 So that is a pathway that we could

4 potentially follow.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

6 And, again, just as a follow-up, just for

7 clarification, I'm just trying to think of for any

8 commercial and industrial product, had DOE specified a

9 specific label like Charlie was talking about?

10 MR. ADIN: The only product for which DOE

11 has -- on the commercial product side, the only

12 product for which there are currently labeling

13 requirements that I can think of is electric motors.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And that means you have to

15 have the nameplate, the full load efficiency on the

16 nameplate as produced by the manufacturer, right?

17 MR. ADIN: Correct. Well, I should specify

18 that that's the only product for which DOE

19 specifically requires a label with efficiency on it.

20 Obviously any product can be labeled if DOE says to

21 the extent you use a label you have to use the number

22 that comes out of the DOE test procedure, but motors
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1 are the only one where we actually say you must have a

2 label and it must have the efficiency on it, and it's

3 just the efficiency metrics.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thanks.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

6 MR. HUBER: If we're looking at the goals

7 here, I mean, actually there's I would say probably

8 two or three. One of them is we want to be able to

9 compare one pump to some metric so that you can choose

10 or the consumer can choose which is the best, you

11 know, for him. One is more efficient. One is less

12 efficient. One costs more. One costs less. He can

13 make that choice, right? I mean, that's one of the

14 things we're trying to do.

15 The other thing we're trying to do is we're

16 trying to educate the consumer that taking a pump and

17 throttling it with a valve is going to cost him

18 energy, and we've got to be able to compare that

19 somehow or communicate that somehow to the consumer,

20 that a -- that comparing that to a variable speed

21 drive unit is more efficient.

22 You know, we instinctively know that, but
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1 the consumer may not understand what benefit that

2 really is, and we've got to find a way to communicate

3 that, and I think the NGOs all agree with me on that.

4 I mean, that's one of the things we've talked about

5 for three years. So we've got to be able to do that.

6 I don't know that we're hitting that with

7 this.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I would add one more to the

9 list at least, and maybe there's a -- I've got a list

10 of about five here, and the other which is critical

11 for you all is ease of application, not being

12 burdensome on the manufacturers and at the same time

13 it has got to pass muster. It has got to, you know,

14 have sufficient rigor to do the job sufficiently.

15 Chuck.

16 MR. POWERS: Yes. And also I was thinking.

17 I've got some questions to --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Get close to that thing.

19 MR. POWERS: I've got some questions for

20 Sarah's stuff in a minute because she's brought up

21 some good points, but also the path to the market. If

22 several pump guys, 100 percent of some of them, 50
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1 percent of others and zero in others, go to the market

2 with a bare pump, not the motor, not the drive, okay,

3 I'm trying to picture in my mind like Charlie was

4 saying the other option, I mean, his views, too, on

5 how you label things.

6 So we could label the pump, but if we're not

7 packaging the motor VFD and somebody else is, you'd

8 have to say to them, "Okay. By the way, go to the

9 standard. Do all of the formulas. Do all of this

10 stuff. Get certified, and we assume you can."

11 That's just one point, right?

12 And I'm not defining. I'm just trying to

13 say how would a pump guy be responsible for all the

14 other factors, be responsible for the bare pump if

15 he's shipping 100 percent out the door, right? And

16 then somebody else is packaging it.

17 And a lot of the offshore coming to the

18 States would be that way, right?

19 The other one was in Sarah's formula, I'll

20 sit there and say on motors, okay, get it, right. It's

21 pretty cool, but if you throw in turbines or engines,

22 we'd have to look at the load factors and the
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1 governors and the systems. So you'd have to have

2 another set of series of those.

3 The other thing on the -- and just keep

4 going on the -- this is Chuck by the way -- on the VFD

5 drive, my experience and maybe some of the others',

6 the part load factor can be an issue. Instead of

7 putting it on the overall package, I still think the

8 individual, Greg, you know, in my testing, in my

9 experience is huge, and you know, again, I'm not

10 saying how we end up is contrary to what she was

11 mentioning, maybe have one overall.

12 The other thing is in my experience taking

13 generic motor efficiency is one thing, but then

14 actually doing testing and guaranteeing would have to

15 get a certified motor, right, to actually do testing

16 to qualify these factors to know where those motors

17 are and part load and how they're going to impact it,

18 you know, to feel comfortable that is there nominal --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It would need to be

20 calibrated or something.

21 MR. POWERS: There's a lot of --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Something like that.
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1 MR. POWERS: There's a lot of work here,

2 which is good, but it isn't just straightforward as it

3 sounds, right?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. POWERS: You'd have to actually get the

6 actual data to do the test to make sure because,

7 again, if there's minimal gain on the pump, the

8 package is maybe the consequence here.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note as a process

10 feature, in about ten minutes we're going to take a

11 break, just so you'll know.

12 I liked where we were headed, that kind of

13 listing the principal characteristics or the principal

14 goals they were trying to achieve at kind of a high

15 level. I thought that was a sensible thing to do.

16 Al, you started on that. Do you want to

17 keep talking here?

18 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

19 I had a couple more. One of the things I

20 think is a goal, and I see real problems with this,

21 and that is how do we measure the real savings. I

22 mean, if we're going to evaluate whether we regulate
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1 something, we have to know what the real savings are,

2 and we're taking this analytical approach. Although

3 it's real easy or easier, it may not be accurate.

4 I mean, motor efficiencies do vary with

5 load.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

7 MR. HUBER: VFD efficiencies vary with load.

8 I mean, they just do. And so I'm a little concerned

9 that we may run off and decide that something is worth

10 spending a lot of money on based on analytical

11 shortcuts, and it just may not be there.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary for the

14 California IOUs.

15 Al, I agree with you, but I think Sarah very

16 clearly outlined the tradeoffs, the loss of accuracy

17 versus the additional burden, and I personally think

18 some of these analytical approach that were proposed

19 are very good and will give us accurate enough results

20 that we can avoid the burden of testing everything.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas -- Rob. Go ahead.

22 MR. BOTELER: This is Rob Boteler with
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1 Nidec. How's that?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

3 MR. BOTELER: Just one comment. You know,

4 we're talking I think about compliance testing where

5 we are looking at a formula that uses the values for

6 the motor and the control. I think where Al is headed

7 is then we have this other step called enforcement,

8 and the question is: is enforcement going to follow a

9 formula or is enforcement going to follow --

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes.

11 MR. BOTELER: It is?

12 MS. WIDDER: Enforcement will follow the

13 exact same procedure that the pump was certified

14 under.

15 MR. BOTELER: Okay. So there won't be a

16 wire to water test for enforcement. Okay.

17 MS. WIDDER: Well, I'm not going to say no.

18 I'm going to say there will be -- anyway, I'll let

19 Lucas.

20 MR. ADIN: Let me clarify that. I mean,

21 this obviously all depends ultimately on whatever it

22 is that we decide is the appropriate way to certify
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1 these products. To the extent we do choose a course

2 which relies upon a calculation method, any testing

3 done for that product would be done the same way.

4 So if it's done as a calculation for

5 certifying the product, it would be done the same way

6 for any subsequent compliance or enforcement testing.

7

8

9 MR. BOTELER: I guess then the question I'd

10 have to ask if the formula uses the same value for

11 every motor, every pump manufacturer uses the same

12 value for the motor and the same value for the

13 control, the only variable we're actually measuring is

14 the pump. So why did we do this?

15 That's my second question.

16 MR. ADIN: So there is another possibility

17 here. This is one way to do it, and this was in

18 response to a lot of the concerns that we had heard

19 about the potential burden of doing wire to water

20 testing on every single configuration of pump and

21 motor and controls.

22 The other is to have a standardized
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1 calculation approach but with a wire to water test

2 and, in fact, I mean, for DOE's part anyway, be

3 inclined to do this anyway just to have a backup if

4 someone actually did want to do the whole test and

5 find out what the real value is.

6 Like you'd still be able to if you were --

7 say, for example, you were using a motor that is more

8 efficient than the baseline assumed motor and you want

9 to be able to recognize or represent the efficiency

10 improvement that's associated with that motor. Well,

11 we'd still have this test you can do to reflect those

12 savings in the efficiency rating for that particular

13 combination.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: And we can also allow use of

15 a nameplate, efficiency value, that's more efficient

16 than the baseline. So two options.

17 MR. ADIN: Yes, that's the other option,

18 correct. Thanks, Alison.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis and then to Greg.

20 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with

21 NEEA.

22 To answer Rob Boteler's question of why we
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1 might want to do this, I think currently we don't have

2 a way to look at VFD's accuracy, but AHRI has a test

3 procedure now and five or six years they will know

4 probably accurately how VFDs perform over a variety of

5 loads. So it will have essentially a power curve for

6 VFDs.

7 And I think the same thing will happen with

8 the motor. So perhaps this time around we won't have

9 a rulemaking that actually utilizes real data that we

10 use in idealize, but seven years from now there will

11 be.

12 So this is setting the framework for the

13 future when we might actually do real world testing,

14 so where the pump and some of the other items actually

15 get tested together.

16 So I think it provides an excellent

17 opportunity for something in the future, and that's

18 why we want to set up the framework.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

21 To echo Alison's comment, I think the use of

22 -- the ability to use nameplate data other than the
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1 standardized motor and standardized control will allow

2 the manufacturer to upgrade his PER number of whatever

3 we call it by using premium equipment.

4 And if we just didn't give the controls a

5 pass, in Europe they've said the controls are, you

6 know, -- there's 100 percent efficiency there. So if

7 we created some fictitious load curve based on a swag

8 for the controls and then we also had a test procedure

9 but we had the test procedure allow us to do those

10 controls, and it would benefit you to do the test

11 procedure because our control curve would make the

12 calculation less efficient than if we actually went

13 and did the testing.

14 So I think that addresses Al's point. That

15 addresses why we would put different motors in there,

16 and that allows us to -- the manufacturer could just

17 calculate all of this out or he could actually do a

18 test and the test would be beneficial to the

19 manufacturer to run that test.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Laura.

21 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Hi. Is it on now?

22 Laura Petrillo-Groh, AHRI.
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1 Louis, I think that test data will actually

2 be available sometime this year. The standard was

3 published in 2011, and the certification program for

4 that equipment was launched this year or at the very

5 end of last year.

6 You know, I think a lot of the concern the

7 manufacturers here have are the same as the

8 manufacturers who joined the certification program

9 with the additional benefit of it not being optional

10 or the opposite of benefit. A lot of testing is

11 required to establish this information and to, you

12 know, go through all of these tests.

13 It's a very large expense for a manufacturer

14 to go through, and using, you know, an established

15 test method where you can compare the products,

16 especially when products are used in, you know,

17 different applications, different equipment types, you

18 know, with VFDs, with pumps or with, you know,

19 blowers, fans and motors, has the benefit of a

20 manufacturer being able to test, get reliable data,

21 and provide that for, you know, their customers. So

22 just like the pump guys.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

3 We've kind of flipped back between like the

4 metric and then the test procedure, kind of back and

5 forth, and I'm just thinking that somehow, you know,

6 thinking on the high level just seeing with this

7 conversation there might -- again, as a possibility,

8 there might be a use for multiple metrics, you know,

9 especially like when Charles was saying the bare pump

10 thing.

11 Well, if so many people are shipping, you

12 know, if 70 percent of the market is just shipping

13 bare pumps, then doesn't it make sense just to have a

14 bare pump metric because that's what's happening in

15 the marketplace? And a standard and a test procedure

16 would cover both domestic and imports.

17 So, again, it's out there as a general

18 concept in terms of our multiple metrics needed. It

19 could be in this case.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

21 Tom Eckman.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Well, I want to say a couple of
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1 things. I want to support exactly what Greg said

2 about the advantages of having a test and the option

3 of using default values because I think -- or using

4 book values better than the minimum compliant values

5 because you guys have an opportunity to differentiate

6 your products and, you know, to the extent that we

7 make those default values conservative, you can pick

8 better and do better by using tested products or using

9 better book values.

10 So I think that's a shared goal on our part

11 and where we want to go.

12 And to Rob's point, I think we would have a

13 pump only test value. You don't need multi-metrics to

14 do it because the people who just use the book values

15 are going to get the test values, are going to get the

16 pump value. That's it.

17 So we have that without having to have --

18 because all of those defaults will add up to the same

19 number except for the pump. So I think there's

20 elegance in that solution where you have one metric

21 that covers the whole gamut.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So we are going to break in a
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1 minute, but I just want to introduce what I'm going to

2 talk about after that because I think it will help

3 some of this discussion.

4 So I'm going to go through how we could

5 potentially set a standard using this metric, and I

6 think that will elucidate just what Tom just said,

7 that although it's just a single metric, it really

8 does address just the pump only. It will show how MEI

9 can be kind of embedded in it and hopefully that will

10 help resolve some of these issues about why we think

11 this might work instead of multiple metrics and still

12 get at the bare pump.

13 Because, like Tom said, really the only

14 variable changing in it is pump efficiency.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: You're going to keep them in

16 suspense until after the break.

17 Let's take a break. It's ten o'clock and

18 we'll resume at 10:15. I think actually we've made

19 some progress in this last conversation.

20 We'll see you back here at 10:15. Please

21 make sure the wear your badges in the room.

22 (A brief recess was taken.)
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Please take your seats.

2 Okay. So I've been asked to make sure that

3 we get these microphones close to our faces because

4 apparently those that are listening on line are having

5 a hard time hearing us. So if we could do that.

6 Let me talk about scheduling for a moment.

7 Several individuals have approached me and said they

8 need to leave at one or 1:30 or so. There are at

9 least two. How many of you need to leave today, one,

10 1:30-ish to catch a plane?

11 Just two. Okay. That's not as many as I

12 had expected. We would still have a quorum at that

13 point.

14 No, I was just kidding.

15 So the question is one individual suggested

16 that maybe we should just work through lunch, stop at

17 one or 1:30, call it a day, that sort of thing, and

18 then everybody could get on their way, or

19 alternatively, we can work till 12:30 or one-ish,

20 12:30 or so, and those individuals that need to leave,

21 they can leave and we can reconvene and work till

22 three o'clock.
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1 So I don't have any strong feeling about it.

2 My general predisposition is to keep you captive as

3 long as possible, but I'll entertain other ideas at

4 this point if there are any.

5 I think most of you have travel plans for

6 later in the day. So I'd just as soon stay here and

7 keep working at it till three o'clock.

8 Steve.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The only thing I'll

10 suggest, if you think there's need for caucus to get

11 together during lunch in terms of any sort of decision

12 point, then you might want to break for lunch. If

13 not, if it's still just information and analysis, then

14 work through.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: It's a good point, and I had

16 a conversation with you folks over the break. Maybe

17 we may gain more ground in this last presentation

18 format, and Alison is also about to begin here. She's

19 going to describe how what Sarah presented, how the

20 MEI fits with that, and then we're going to see if we

21 can do some sort of a confirmation sort of a

22 discussion after this next presentation segment. Okay?
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1 So then I think what we're going to do is

2 we're going to allow those individuals that need to

3 leave to catch a plane or a train, allow them to leave

4 and then we're going to just plug on here until three

5 o'clock. That's the plan.

6 Okay. Alison.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So I think these

8 slides went out earlier, too. I just want to go

9 through them.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Can I? Pardon me.

11 One more request. A number of individuals

12 have requested that these slides that are being

13 presented today and the ones that were done yesterday,

14 that were edited, if they could be sent out and soon,

15 then that would be helpful to members of the working

16 group. So I hope that will be feasible.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So I will just plan to

18 edit or to just double check them for typos and stuff

19 on the plane tonight and then we can send them.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. That's

21 helpful.

22 Now, Alison.
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1 MR. ADIN: I didn't know what you meant by

2 soon.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, okay. Well, that's what

4 I meant by soon.

5 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That means soon.

7 MR. ADIN: That's what we, I think, meant by

8 soon, too, is we'd make sure that they're correct

9 based on the discussion that we have today and send

10 them out as soon as possible.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe soon means within a

12 few days.

13 MR. ADIN: Right. Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So just up front, I'm

16 going to talk about how we could potentially -- sorry.

17 This computer is super slow -- I'm going to talk about

18 how we could potentially set -- oh, I don't -- oh, I

19 guess so. I'm not taking notes now. Oh, oops, I hit

20 the wrong button. We'll get there one day.

21 Okay. So while it's thinking, what I'm

22 going to talk about is purely hypothetical, something
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1 that could be done. It does not indicate any decision

2 that DOE has made. So please don't take it as, you

3 know, set in stone or whatever. It's just some

4 slides to hopefully help understand how we think maybe

5 MEI could be involved in this metric.

6 Okay. So Sarah showed this slide briefly

7 before. So what we're going to talk about is how you

8 can set an efficiency level, and so this is a little

9 different from how you would calculate your own PER

10 score for your own pump. So this is a discussion of

11 how we're going to get to what the minimum efficiency

12 level would be.

13 So the same equation as before, but instead

14 of electric input power, we're showing the components

15 of it with hydraulic power, pump efficiency and motor

16 efficiency.

17 Hydraulic power is a measured value for each

18 pump. So just as the MEI is a function of flow and

19 specific speed, the PER would also be a function

20 probably of flow and specific speed.

21 As we talked about before, the motor we use,

22 well, so in this case the motor we would use to set a
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1 standard would probably be the efficiency of a

2 minimally compliant motor with rules on how they're

3 sized so that everyone's sizing the motor the same

4 way. It may be full load efficiency or we may use

5 some other loads as well.

6 And I think the key part of this is that the

7 pump efficiency at BEP is a target value, but is a

8 function of specific speed, flow and potentially C

9 values. So this would basically be how the MEI is

10 rolled into this.

11 So we could evaluate different levels of MEI

12 basically by setting different target values for the

13 "n" pump BEP. You wouldn't have to meet that. You

14 only have to meet the PER. So it wouldn't be, you

15 know, a standard that we're setting. We're just

16 looking at different efficiency levels.

17 So this first bullet just says basically

18 that we could calculate pump efficiency at BEP as a

19 target value exactly the same way that the MEI does.

20 So, you know, we could potentially look at MEI ten,

21 40, 60, whatever and try those different efficiency

22 levels and plug them into this equation.
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1 And just as in the house of efficiency

2 approach in the EU, the target values for pump

3 efficiency at part loads -- and you can ignore the 25

4 percent -- would just be some percentage of pump

5 efficiency at BEP. So somewhere around 95 percent for

6 the 75 percent flow and it currently looks like the

7 market average is around 79 percent for 50 percent

8 flow.

9 So in this equation we have "n" pump BEP,

10 again, would be a function of just like MEI is. The

11 .785 and the .95 are percentages for the 75 percent

12 and 50 percent load points, and the motor efficiency

13 value would be the federal minimum compliance level

14 for an appropriately sized motor.

15 So and then the hydraulic power just is

16 different for every pump that you test. So basically

17 you can look at different levels of pump efficiency,

18 which is basically different levels of MEI and just

19 use this equation to make an equivalent PER for every

20 MEI.

21 So the only thing changing is the MEI. The

22 motor efficiency is going to be the same. The
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1 percentage at part load is going to be the same. The

2 weights are going to be the same. The hydraulic power

3 is going to be the same. You're just changing

4 different MEI levels essentially.

5 So this is an example pump that we're going

6 to calculate to see how it would compare to an MEI

7 standard and a PER standard. So these are -- the flow

8 and specific speed. We calculated the shaft and

9 hydraulic power at the three load points and the pump

10 efficiency at the three load points.

11 We're using -- this pump has a nameplate

12 efficiency for the motor of 95 percent. So we plug

13 these values into this equation, the shaft power at

14 each of the load points. So load points and the motor

15 efficiency. So I have the efficiency level here, and

16 -- sorry.

17 So this chart demonstrates -- this chart has

18 a C value and the pump efficiency at BEP at these four

19 different MEI levels we looked at, and then we used

20 this equation up here to calculate what the equivalent

21 PER would be at each of the MEI levels.

22 So you can see that if we looked at the pump
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1 efficiency for this pump, it's 84.04 percent. So it

2 would pass under an MEI or under a pump efficiency

3 standard up to MEI 70. The calculated PER is 29.23,

4 and so in this example it's actually lower than all

5 these levels.

6 So you can see that there is a slight

7 difference. It would -- there are some points at

8 which a pump might pass one and not pass another, but

9 the only thing that is changing in setting the

10 efficiency level is just the pump efficiency, which

11 would basically -- so it all goes back to this one red

12 variable. This is the key one that would change with

13 efficiency level.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

15 MR. POWERS: Question: so in that equation

16 did the motor load efficiency at those different

17 conditions include it?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: We -- yes, in this example we

19 just used the nominal full load efficiency across the

20 board.

21 MR. POWERS: Oh, so you did use the others,

22 which is important because they will vary. Then it
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1 would not be just the pump.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: But it would be -- if we were

3 setting a standard, we would set -- we would just use

4 a standardized motor part load curve. So every pump

5 would be using the same part load curves. So the only

6 variable changing would still be the pump efficiency.

7 That's for setting a standard. It's

8 different from how you would calculate your own pump's

9 rating.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm looking at this side

11 of the table over here. I'm noticing there aren't as

12 many furrowed brows as there were previously.

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So my hypothesis is that this

15 is starting to work. And, Greg, you were nodding

16 affirmatively, I'll add for the record.

17 (Laughter.)

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So, no, I want you to explain

19 back what Alison just said for all of us.

20 (Laughter.)

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Or someone else because I

22 want to make sure -- can you do that or should I rely
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1 on someone else? I thought that that last explication

2 surrounding MEI, I thought that was rather clear.

3 MR. CASE: I agree.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Steve

5 Rosenstock.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

7 I'm not trying to explain it. I promise,

8 but if you could go forward to where the table of

9 results was. Yeah, that one.

10 On a previous slide -- and, again, this is

11 from your earlier slides -- the unit, the PER

12 calculated the way the equation is that it's like a

13 29.23, and then in a previous slide it said

14 horsepower, HP.

15 Is that the unit that you're calculating?

16 Okay.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, currently the PER that

18 we're using in this formula is a power based metric.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. In looking at this

20 table, it is that that would be a minimum value or a

21 maximum value? I'm just trying to get my bearings all

22 straight here because with all the -- in terms of a
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1 standard, it would have to be at least 29.23?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So the MEI levels in this

3 chart are like efficiency levels --

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: -- that we usually look at,

6 right? And so your maximum -- but since lower is

7 better, it's really a maximum.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So that would be a

9 maximum.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So MEI 10, the maximum

11 PER would be 33.6.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: And for this pump we're

14 calculating a PER of 29. So it would be good to go.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Again, just thinking

16 about it, when you say horsepower that just --

17 unfortunately that implies not an efficiency metric;

18 just more of an output, of a work output. Using it

19 might cause confusion in the marketplace if there was

20 some way to -- I don't know how, but --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So I want to separate. I

22 mean, I think that's the conversation about the
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1 denominator because we can get to a different unit

2 with the denominator, and so I want to keep that

3 conversation separate and try to make this more of a -

4 -

5 MR. BROOKMAN: And I want to keep this

6 conceptual still.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's why I was kind of

8 saying at the high level as, you know, again, just as

9 a -- this is the first time I've seen --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So we can use the denominator

11 to make almost any unit we want basically.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's go to Lucas.

13 MR. ADIN: I think -- I don't know if this

14 addresses your concern, Steve -- but I think really

15 the main point we're trying to make in going through

16 this example and this explanation is really to drive

17 home the point that the only variable that under this

18 construct we would be considering for the purposes of

19 setting a standard is a pump efficiency.

20 Like we could create a different metric with

21 a denominator or whatever that would, you know,

22 accomplish those other purposes that we're talking
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1 about about communicating information to consumers or

2 whatever it is, but at the end of the day when we do

3 the analysis to set a standard, we'd just be varying

4 that pump efficiency value.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Understood. Steve

6 Rosenstock, EEI.

7 I understand that, but you know, the metric

8 becomes what's published in all the tables and what --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: We're not going there yet.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, I know, I know. Just

11 again --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: We're staying at a conceptual

13 level.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, are you going to keep

16 us at a conceptual level?

17 MR. STARR: Yeah. On the -- Louis Starr

18 with NEEA.

19 If you've got the motor in there, it seems

20 like you should also have the efficiency of the VFD as

21 well. I mean, it's not going to change your equation.

22 Just it also has --
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1 MR. ADIN: So in this example -- I'm sorry?

2 MR. STARR: Never mind. Go ahead at this

3 point. This is just the pump only.

4 MR. ADIN: Right.

5 MR. STARR: So we're not at the VFD.

6 MR. ADIN: We're not talking about that

7 level.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Here, here.

9 MR. STARR: Sorry.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So I don't know if this will

11 help clarify it at all, and so the PER consists of the

12 control, the motor, and the pump, and so here's where

13 we're changing the MEI levels for the pump. The motor

14 value would be a default value, most likely the

15 federal minimum efficiency.

16 We could also have a default value for

17 controls. It may be one, but we could talk about if

18 there should be something else, but you know, setting

19 a standard we would probably -- we would assume no

20 controls in the most likely scenario. So those would

21 probably be one. This would be default, and we would

22 just look at different efficiency levels here, and
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1 these all go together to create the PER.

2 MR. ADIN: Right, and just to clarify, where

3 it says default, we'd have to make a choice about what

4 we use as that default. So for the motor, for

5 example, I mean, we could choose to just use the

6 minimum, a minimally compliant motor, right? So you

7 assume that it's a motor that just meets the minimum

8 federal standard.

9 Well, if that's what the pump standard is

10 based upon, well, then a product that uses a more

11 efficient motor based on its nameplate data would

12 basically be shown as being more efficient than a

13 standard on the basis of the motor, perhaps in

14 addition to the pump.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And it would be a

16 calculation, and so that would be minimally burdensome

17 on manufacturers.

18 Steve Rosenstock, at a conceptual level.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, at a conceptual

20 level --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- if there are pumps that
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1 use motors that are not covered by federal standards,

2 would there have to be another possible default

3 considered?

4 MR. ADIN: This is Lucas. That's something

5 that we would have to look at. I mean, we'd have to

6 consider for each class of pumps that we're looking at

7 really what are the motors that are -- because it

8 would have to be realistically based on what's

9 actually going on in the market and not just, you

10 know, a flat baseline assumption.

11 But it would have to be based on

12 information. So yes.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have more slides?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Nope.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So I want to take it back one

16 notch. Doug Potts first.

17 MR. POTTS: Doug Potts.

18 I'd like to ask a quick question. Could you

19 explain what the C value is?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, so in the MEI, it's a --

21 what kind of equation is it? The quadratic equation,

22 right, and so there's a scale or variable that just
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1 moves up and down, and so that's what the C value is,

2 and in the EU they set a minimum C value basically to

3 say how high or low the minimum pump efficiency is.

4 So it's -- for this pump, this flow and

5 specific speed, these are the equivalent BEPs. So the

6 C value is really just defining the minimum pump

7 efficiency for a specific flow and specific speed

8 pump.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'd like to take it back

10 because I liked starting with this information that

11 Sarah wrote up here. I believe this is what Al said

12 with a few additions.

13 The goals of the metric would be to be

14 objectively measurable and minimally burdensome, to

15 differentiate pump performance, to apply standards,

16 and to help consumers make decisions. I think those

17 are kind of the overarching goals in this metric.

18 And in this last description where you

19 applied the MEI to the PER equation, I thought that

20 was -- also showed how those pieces are put together,

21 right?

22 So I was wondering now, anybody in the room
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1 has questions on how this would be utilized, how it

2 would be applied?

3 Steve Rosenstock.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.

5 With that equation you could replace driver

6 for motor and it would still work, wouldn't it?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Alison?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: So, yes. Sorry.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Let me address that real

12 quick. So I know we voted the covered product,

13 including drivers that may include non-electric

14 motors. Currently the format we have proposed for the

15 metric makes the assumption that pumps are driven by

16 electric motors, and if you were selling a pump

17 designed with or designed for use with an engine, it

18 would basically be considered a bare pump, and it

19 would be treated in this equation where you would just

20 -- the bare pump would still be regulated, but the

21 metric would not account for engine efficiency.

22 So it -- let me finish -- so this is what we
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1 are suggesting right now as a first step to set this

2 metric dealing only with electric motors, and either

3 now or in the future we could consider default value

4 for an engine or a turbine or other values if the

5 working group determined that that was something that

6 needed to be addressed in the metric.

7 However, just because -- I mean, as we wrote

8 the covered product definition very broadly it

9 includes all sorts of pump types that were not

10 included in the scope of the standard. So similarly,

11 just because it includes all kinds of drivers, they

12 don't necessarily all have to be within the scope of

13 the standard.

14 So that's something that the working group

15 can discuss, whether or not the metric needs to

16 address those things.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

19 Thank you very much. Again, I think that

20 would be something for us to determine, and that was

21 one of the data points that we were looking for, is

22 because as I discussed in the last meeting, at one
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1 point they said ten percent of the products were sold

2 with non-electric drivers. Then at a later meeting it

3 was two percent.

4 I still have no information about what that

5 market is, and then you showed the slides about the

6 agricultural thing where we're certain -- in certain

7 segments there is a significant portion of the market

8 in terms of dollars spent using either propane or

9 natural gas or diesel drivers in that market, in the

10 agricultural market.

11 So in my view, again, if I had the data that

12 showed what the actual percentage of the market is it

13 would be one thing to limit it, but right now I don't

14 have any data that says why certain segments of the

15 market should be limited, especially because you're

16 trying to save all types of energy and not just

17 electricity.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm just guessing and from

19 what I recall from the previous meetings was -- and

20 maybe we need more data, better data -- that electric

21 motors are in the high '90s, and so maybe we need more

22 data, but it just seems like this construct is a
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1 matter of convenience.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and I just want to say

3 we don't have full data in yet, but I can tell you

4 that so far all of the data we have received, there

5 have been zero shipments of pumps with engines in it.

6 So I mean, we'll keep collecting that data and see if

7 any comes in, but that's the current state.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. Steve

9 Rosenstock, EEI.

10 You're getting data from distributors?

11 Because someone's shipping them.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: We're not getting data from

13 distributors.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

15 MR. POWERS: Yeah, I think when you get into

16 some --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Microphone.

18 MR. POWERS: It is on. When you do talk

19 through diesels, engine drives and all, you may find a

20 lot of them are above 200 horse. There is a lot of

21 little stuff, but they're probably involved in some

22 very small, but when you get into the majority of
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1 them, you're going to go above 200 horse.

2 Now, they may stop at 500 horse. It depends

3 on if you're talking about 3208 Cat. or Wakashaws,

4 whatever. That's my take, Steve, and I agree that --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, Steve Rosenstock.

6 I appreciate that, and again, if I had that

7 information, I'd be happy to do it. Again, I'm going

8 partially -- Steve Rosenstock -- just I don't have the

9 data. So in terms of --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: We got your point, Steve.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- not excluding something

12 --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: We got it. We did.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison.

15 What I would propose is let's table that for

16 later when there is data and just move forward with

17 the assumption that currently we're just covering

18 motors and we'll later have a discussion about whether

19 or not to get the drivers in there so we can keep

20 going.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm looking at the

22 manufacturers caucus here, and I'm wondering what you
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1 think. Does what has been presented -- does it make

2 sense to you? Are there still gaps in the

3 understanding here? Can you see the application for

4 you as manufacturers and your plants back home? What

5 do you think? How does this look to you?

6 Greg Case.

7 MR. CASE: Greg Case from Hydraulic

8 Institute.

9 I think as a conceptual construct we can see

10 the path here, and obviously there's details in some

11 of this that we would want to see more information on

12 how the MEI, whatever it's called, number is going to

13 be determined. But I think the path here seems clear.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

15 MR. ADIN: On that point perhaps we can make

16 a request. With full understanding that there are

17 some issues that you would need to consider with this

18 and it's potentially they're -- it's a complex issue.

19 I mean, potentially there are a number of factors that

20 might be involved, not just in, you know, the

21 calculation of the number itself, how it's obtained

22 for the testing part of it and how we do the standard.
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1 When we come back at the next meeting, just

2 if we could hear, you know, about what your specific

3 questions or concerns are so we can talk through and

4 see if we can come a little closer to resolving the

5 concerns on your side because, you know, I just hope

6 that we can get a little closer; if not, settle the

7 matter of what we're really going to use for the

8 metric next time.

9 So thanks.

10 MS. WIDDER: So I brought back up this slide

11 which has a number of issues to discuss.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.

13 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. This is Sarah from

14 PNNL.

15 We still have a little bit of time, and I

16 was wondering if maybe especially the bottom two

17 bullets, the load points and the weighting, if we

18 generally agree that we will capture multiple load

19 points in the equation, it may look something like the

20 PER equation up there or it may be slightly different.

21 Maybe we could discuss what those load points might be

22 as a -- it seems like a detail, but it would be a nice
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1 thing to have some resolution around and may be

2 easier.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I think that's a

4 sensible thing.

5 Al Huber.

6 MR. HUBER: As far as the industry is

7 concerned, it would be the bottom on the load points.

8 That's the one that we've sent the surveys to you on.

9 That's the one we've had all of our membership report

10 on and hopefully you'll have 25 companies reporting

11 50, 75, 100 and 110. So you'll have the data.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. That's helpful.

13 MS. WIDDER: Excellent.

14 MR. HUBER: We are not reporting 25.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, you stated earlier why.

16 Okay. Right. That makes sense. Good. So that's

17 helpful.

18 Any significant heartburn with those load

19 points? They're consistent with what the consultant

20 team thinks makes sense. I just thought I'd get the

21 general sense now. Everybody is generally okay with

22 this?
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1 Louis.

2 MR. STARR: Just, you know, this is more you

3 could really do it over the whole range of things and

4 kind of integrate things together. I mean, it's a

5 more complex way of doing it, but rather than use

6 specific load points, you just do it over the whole

7 range of curve and grade over the normal.

8 Anyway, it's a technical aspects of it that

9 is really -- could be done that's more --

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. STARR: -- representative of what the

12 real situation is.

13 MS. WIDDER: The difficulty with that,

14 although analytically there are a couple of ways, but

15 from the test procedure perspective, we have to

16 specify a number and specific load points that the

17 manufacturers will test their pump at.

18 MR. STARR: Right.

19 MS. WIDDER: And so it can't be infinite.

20 You know, there has to be a reasonable number, and

21 then you could, you know, specify a curve and then

22 apply that curve to, you know, another equation where
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1 you get your load profile, but it just seems perhaps

2 very complex.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis, keep going.

4 MR. STARR: So maybe an alternative to that

5 is just looking at the bin hours and just picking the

6 large bin.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

8 MR. STARR: So 25 percent probably would be,

9 but maybe like 37, and you know, off of the 25, 50. So

10 37, 62, whatever 12 plus 75 is, in those ranges that

11 might be better load points because very little hours

12 has it actually run at 100 percent a lot of times and

13 so --

14 MS. WIDDER: Right.

15 MR. STARR: -- maybe a little bit off of

16 that would be preferable.

17 MS. WIDDER: And I recognize it would be

18 excellent to set the load points based on a

19 representative load shape or profile. The struggle is

20 that that data is not widely available. It is for

21 HVAC, but that's not the only application of pumps

22 we're addressing in this rulemaking, and so you know,
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1 manufacturing, industrial, agriculture might have very

2 different load shapes. So we sort of went with

3 something middle of the road for that reason.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: And for which the industry is

5 used to compiling this data.

6 Rob Boteler.

7 MR. BOTELER. Yeah, Rob Boteler with Nidec.

8 I just have one question. The load points

9 we're talking about, are these -- these are the pump

10 load points, not the motor?

11 MS. WIDDER: Correct.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

13 MR. BOTELER: Okay.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

15 MR. LIN: Maybe just a couple comments from

16 a high level standpoint. If we follow through with

17 that kind of an approach, you're not taking into

18 account the actual motor watt draw, right? So you're

19 really taking into account the full load point, and if

20 we're talking about an energy rating, you know, the

21 motor is the one that's drawing the energy, right, not

22 the pump itself.
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1 And so from a different standpoint with

2 different technologies, that doesn't come out. You're

3 not able to differentiate from different technologies

4 with the way of having a single full load point.

5 And also to the count of having a control on

6 it, you're not giving I don't think adequate weighing

7 of having a -- of the ability to control the various

8 loads because your separation of watts at partial

9 loads is significant, especially -- I mean, the watts,

10 it's tied to speed if you write cubic relationship

11 there.

12 So I think those are mainly two of the

13 things that I have kind of stuck in my head. One is

14 the actual watt draw, and then two is how do you

15 account for the variable load with a control.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

17 MR. ADIN: So, I mean, I think those are two

18 issues that we still need to decide upon. I mean,

19 what we described up here is based upon the use of an

20 assumed efficiency value for all load points, but we

21 fully understand the point that that's going to -- the

22 watt draw and the efficiency of the motor itself is
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1 going to vary, you know, at each load point.

2 So, you know, how in practical terms would

3 we deal with that? Would we use an assumed load curve

4 or an efficiency curve for that motor? I mean there

5 are potentially different ways you could do it, but we

6 want to make sure that we're minimizing the amount of

7 actual burden that's involved in obtaining an

8 efficiency rating for that pump.

9 So we need to balance one with the other and

10 then I'll let Sarah speak to this as well.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: But Sarah first.

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Just to add onto that,

14 we definitely recognize the reduction in accuracy that

15 you would have to do in order to just assume full load

16 motor efficiency, and in light of that we performed

17 some preliminary calculations based on some pump and

18 motor testing data that we have to look at how

19 accounting for motor losses versus tested motor losses

20 versus assuming a full load efficiency would affect

21 the PER rating.

22 So we tried to look at calculated motor
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1 losses if we assume some curve, a default curve,

2 versus the tested losses versus just full load

3 efficiency, and the difference was like .02 in PER

4 points, which is -- so it was like 29.87, 29.89, and

5 29.86 or something like that.

6 And I have the calculations and we can go

7 through that at a later time, but we found it to be a

8 very small difference in accounting for the losses

9 because for many -- I recognize not all motors -- but

10 for many motors the efficiency doesn't drop off

11 significantly until you get to significant loading, is

12 my understanding. I'm not --

13 MR. POWERS: Except for VFD drives.

14 MS. WIDDER: Well, VFD drives is different,

15 yeah. I think maybe --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So Chuck says except for VFD

17 drives. Now, Sarah.

18 MS. WIDDER: If we can maybe separate the

19 motor losses from the how to account for controls and

20 the interaction of motor controls, just whether or not

21 we account for motor losses, I think, is an issue in

22 and of itself that we can keep separate.
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1 So we've shown or seen from the data we have

2 that it's not a very large impact at the loading that

3 we're looking at.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

5 MS. WIDDER: That said, we could think of a

6 way to account for it. We also considered -- it

7 wasn't presented here -- but the motor test procedure

8 does capture other rating loading points besides full

9 load, although full load is the only one that's

10 required to be reported for purposes of compliance

11 with DOE standards.

12 Theoretically one could, if that data is

13 available for motor efficiency at multiple load

14 points, somehow interpolate between the available data

15 and the pump load points --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: But let's note that --

17 MS. WIDDER: But anyways --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: -- it might require some

19 additional work, but as we are staying at a conceptual

20 level still, we're not going to solve the problem now.

21 Rob Boteler.

22 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler with Nidec.
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1 Yeah, that's kind of why I brought up the

2 question earlier if it's compliance testing versus

3 enforcement testing. If we stay on one track and we

4 use, you know, just the data, just the calculated

5 data, then we don't run into issues. If we don't, if

6 we switch back and forth, then on the enforcement side

7 the pump manufacturers are going to have a real issue,

8 I think, because they'll have a different way of doing

9 it.

10 And to your point, the motors are going to

11 behave differently when they're run on a variable

12 frequency drive. The losses are going to change.

13 MS. WIDDER: Certainly.

14 MR. BOTELER: Each motor manufacturers' are

15 going to be different. Most manufacturers do publish

16 100 percent, 75, 50 percent load, and that would be

17 something that would be available to the pump

18 manufacturers, but that's not a -- to your point,

19 that's not a table within the regulation.

20 MS. WIDDER: Right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
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1 I'm just kind of curious. At the 110

2 percent of BEP flow, is that analogous to a higher

3 than 100 percent load on the motor in some cases?

4 MS. WIDDER: My understanding, and I will

5 let the pump manufacturers respond after that, is no.

6 The motor is sized at pump run-out essentially so that

7 you're always under the max loading of the motor,

8 regardless of how the pump is run.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So at 110 percent, what

10 would be the analogy in terms of the actual motor load

11 at 110 percent of BEP?

12 MS. WIDDER: It varies because, you know,

13 there's discrete -- a motor size is discrete and a

14 pump size discrete.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Understood, understood.

16 MS. WIDDER: And so it's going vary. I

17 would imagine that it would be above -- I'm looking at

18 the pump guys -- 80 percent.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

20 MS. WIDDER: Higher.

21 MR. POWERS: I think to help Sarah so she

22 doesn't work herself into a corner, I think the factor
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1 is the non-overloading. It could be anywhere on a

2 curve. Some products are close to the shutoff.

3 There's more axial flow products. We don't have axial

4 in here, but some of them could get down, can get up

5 on specific speeds and get there. It will be to the

6 left.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MR. POWERS: Some of them are on run-out.

9 There's max load.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

11 MR. POWERS: It just depends where. Don't

12 assume it's -- she said always run-out.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

14 MR. POWERS: It may not always be there.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

16 Again, you know --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Chuck there. Now

18 Steve.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again, it's just a matter

20 of if there's ever a situation, and motors can handle

21 overload for short periods of time; if there's -- when

22 you're doing the analysis, is there data at 102
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1 percent, 105 percent load for the motor? Because it

2 can happen.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me ask if we can now move

4 to the weighting issue.

5 MS. WIDDER: So I will just respond to Steve

6 quickly. We can certainly look at that, but that will

7 -- it has to do with the motor losses, that bullet,

8 yeah.

9 MR. STARR: One last question on motors. So

10 the difference between an induction motor and a three11 phase induction motor or an ECM permanent magnet

12 motor, ECM motor, my understanding is there's like

13 eight percent difference in those efficiencies. Is

14 that kind of the number that we're -- five to eight

15 percent difference?

16 So it seems like that would show up a lot in

17 the PER, but it sounds like you're saying that amount

18 of difference is not enough to affect the values very

19 much.

20 MS. WIDDER: Oh, no. No, I mean the --

21 you're talking about five to eight percent efficiency

22 at full load.
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1 MR. STARR: Even at part load and even

2 better at part load a lot of times they pick up as

3 they -- or the --

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. STARR: -- ECM motors tend to be more

6 efficient at part load.

7 MS. WIDDER: At part load.

8 MR. STARR: But even at full load they're

9 pretty good, but you know, they're not -- they're

10 similar to your regular motors, but it seems like the

11 part loading would help you out a lot.

12 MS. WIDDER: Right. And so to your point

13 earlier we could have different part loading curves

14 for different motors.

15 MR. STARR: Oh, so you're just using the

16 full load one, yeah. So that won't distinguish the

17 technology to use the full load the whole one.

18 MS. WIDDER: Right.

19 MR. STARR: So that's probably not a good

20 idea, but okay. Got it.

21 MS. WIDDER: Right.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: And just to note, we think
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1 ECMs would probably be treated as controls, right. So

2 you would get credit also for being able to reduce

3 speed with an ECM.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

5 MR. STARR: Well, maybe let Paul take this.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Paul, please, yeah.

7 MR. POWERS: Maybe just as a side note, AHRI

8 1210 excludes ECM.

9 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

10 MR. POWERS: So right now you don't have a

11 method in which to rate an ECM.

12 MS. WIDDER: Right. Well, depending on how

13 we decide to rate pump/motor/control pumps, we may not

14 need that test. We may go with -- if we were to go

15 with an approach like A or an approach like C, you

16 never need to know the drive efficiency of the ECM

17 motor. So we could just have a different load control

18 factor that accounted for motor losses as well as

19 improvements from speed reduction that was for the ECM

20 that was similar to or different than a VSD load

21 control factor. Yah.

22 MR. STARR: There's only one thought about
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1 that. A lot of times let's say you've selected a

2 pump. You know, you have a certain flow head

3 condition and you come out with I need 3.6 horsepower.

4 You'll be bumping up to a five horsepower motor

5 because that's what's available.

6 So now you're actually running your motor at

7 part load. So you're no longer really at 100 percent.

8 So in other words, in constant volume applications you

9 may still be using running the motor at part load.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. STARR: So it would be nice to catch it

12 in the motor metric, not in the VFD metric.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right.

14 MR. STARR: In other words, the part load

15 operation. And that happens a lot, too, because your

16 system, what you're hooking up to, they could misjudge

17 what the static head and all that is, and they usually

18 overestimate it. So that means you're really backing

19 your motor down or backing your operating point down.

20 Therefore, you're really only part loading your motor.

21 So it's very common that they miss that all the time.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So can we now move to

2 weighting?

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So Doug wants us to move

4 to weighting.

5 (Laughter.)

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That's what I want us to do.

7 MS. WIDDER: So I think we're going to have

8 to discuss the way we account for controls and motor

9 losses more. I don't think we're going to get there

10 today. So I think that's why we want to move on.

11 Tom has it.

12 MR. ECKMAN: I think conceptually what we

13 want to make sure is however that's resolved, that we

14 get the opportunity to differentiate between a

15 standard permanent magnet motor and the rest of the

16 classes of stuff that we're looking at.

17 MS. WIDDER: Right.

18 MR. ECKMAN: So that you guys can take

19 advantage of that by improving products, but not be

20 disadvantaged if that's what the product has in it. So

21 you want to be able to show that they have a different

22 response to loading than does the standard motor
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1 product.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And how is that accomplished

3 in this?

4 MR. ECKMAN: Well, you mentioned having two

5 default curves, if you will.

6 MS. WIDDER: Right.

7 MR. ECKMAN: One that has a different

8 response to partial loading, part loading and one that

9 doesn't or one that has a -- well, a differential

10 response. I think that's the important part. What

11 those actually look like is, you know, you're going to

12 have to derive somehow, but basically being able to

13 show that someone could insert instead of a default

14 minimum federal standard, get a better result by

15 putting in an ECM motor --

16 MS. WIDDER: Right.

17 MR. ECKMAN: -- as a drive. And the same

18 thing with, you know, the -- I think if you start with

19 controls, 1.0, and then everything that is controlled

20 better than that is going to be improvements --

21 MS. WIDDER: Right.

22 MR. ECKMAN: -- in your rating, then that's
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1 a good standard point, but conceptually you want to be

2 able to take advantage of any improvement in that

3 three-chain event so that you can improve either the

4 drive or the control.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

6 MR. ECKMAN: And any differentiation of the

7 curves in any one of those points needs to end up with

8 a higher PER or higher MEI or whatever we're calling

9 this.

10 MS. WIDDER: Better rating.

11 MR. ECKMAN: Whatever the rating is.

12 MS. WIDDER: Better rating.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis first, then

14 Steve.

15 MR. STARR: My only concern with what Tom's

16 talking about is kind of why it would be nice to have

17 MEI always available, is that essentially you could

18 pick a very low efficiency pump and a high efficiency

19 motor, but really effectively operate it in a, you

20 know, properly sized application and then actually it

21 would be really not saving any energy at all.

22 So it's kind of helpful because the engineer
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1 will know whether it's going to operate a full load or

2 not, and so I don't know what the cost differential on

3 the pumps are, but if it's more than what the motor

4 is, there could be advantages to gaining it such that

5 you've got this really crappy pump and you compare it

6 with maybe an ECM motor and --

7 MS. WIDDER: Well, one thing I just want to

8 respond just really quick, and then I think Mark

9 actually might be saying something similar, is we can

10 discuss what goes on the label from DOE's perspective,

11 but I highly doubt that our standard here will affect

12 the data that pump manufacturers make available to

13 design engineers, and there is -- I mean, those pump

14 curves that look at power versus flow at different

15 trims and efficiency and the BEP for that pump, I

16 mean, all that information will still be available.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

18 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

19 To Louis' point, I think we're going to have

20 to pass the PER number for the bare pump alone on most

21 applications. I mean, there's going to be very few

22 where we only sell it with a motor attached in the Lot
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1 11 group we're talking about. So you're already going

2 to have to pass that minimum PER hurdle. So you're

3 not going to have that bad pump. You're going to

4 already cross that hurdle.

5 Now the next hurdle is you can improve the

6 motor or improve the control system also.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, you're next.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

9 Just thinking conceptually in terms of the

10 controls, you've shrunk the thing. I would say for

11 I'll say all types of controls. For example, there

12 might be applications where a two-speed control is the

13 best application, high speed or low speed flow. That's

14 all they need.

15 MS. WIDDER: Right.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You know, it's simpler,

17 lower cost, as much or possibly as good energy

18 savings. So conceptually they account for all

19 different types of controls.

20 And then I guess another concept I want to

21 throw out there is I'm thinking that there's also

22 controls on multiple pump applications. I guess we're
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1 just looking at individual pumps, but think about

2 sequencing of pumps as a control to maximize the

3 energy efficiency of the pumps. That's multiple pump

4 application. That's a control that's used that can

5 save energy, but I think we probably just want to

6 focus on individual pump for this one.

7 I'm just saying that that's another one as

8 well, but individual pump type controls.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

10 MR. POWERS: Yeah, a question I have to

11 Sarah is if the message that we have to communicate to

12 the field, I've been hearing all the talks; Al was

13 talking about how do we communicate. Charlie brought

14 up, you know, how we go about it.

15 The PER we were kicking around, and I know

16 we're not hung up on whatever, but maybe a better

17 definition of like we were saying maybe SER, system

18 energy, you know, rather than use that pump for the

19 overall because if you have a motor and a VFD and a

20 pump, again, it's not the pump only, even though the

21 factors and the way you guys are approaching it. I

22 think it's better to communicate to the consumer, you
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1 know, it's the overall energy of this process, not

2 necessarily the piece of SER. Come up with something

3 that might benefit us, you know, a better metric.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yep, we can definitely. So two

5 --

6 MR. POWERS: And whether it was SER, we were

7 just using SER, but whatever you think because I think

8 the pump over here in the equation is perfect on that

9 one slide you had, pump, motor and whatever, but I

10 think putting the pump over here for that whole

11 grouping might, you know, mislead the consumer.

12 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So those are some high

13 level discussions that we're going to take into

14 consideration and talk about probably next time also,

15 and maybe we'll have some more detailed slides at the

16 next meeting to talk about how we might account for

17 motor losses, and we'll have some maybe proposals or

18 thoughts about that and different methods accounting

19 for controls.

20 But do we feel like maybe we can talk about

21 these four load points if we all agree on those and

22 maybe the weighting?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we were close. Mark

2 do you want to go first? And then I want to once

3 again turn to weighting.

4 MR. HANDZEL: I was just going to -- and to

5 answer your question, Sarah, yes, I think we can agree

6 on those four weighting points.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So from the manufacturer's

9 perspective we all would be in agreement to --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: On the load point.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Right, on the load points,

12 right.

13 MS. WIDDER: On the load point.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Just kind of a quick

15 temperature, looking around the table here, no one

16 seemed to object to those four load points

17 significantly.

18 Doug?

19 MR. POTTS: I just had a question. I was

20 looking at the EU standards. That was 75 percent, 75

21 percent, 100 percent and 110 percent. I'm just

22 wondering why we're adding the 50 percent to load
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1 point.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Doug is asking why the

3 50 percent since that doesn't track with what the EU

4 is doing.

5 Greg Case.

6 MR. CASE: To answer Doug's question, that

7 was only for the MEI, and we're considering what the

8 EU calls the EEI or the energy efficiency index, which

9 is the pump drive and motor altogether. That MEI only

10 applied to the pump end only, so only the wet end.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Greg.

12 Now, Louis.

13 MR. STARR: Just above 100 percent seems a

14 little -- I don't know. It seems like it's going to

15 disfavor the VFD, and hopefully people aren't

16 designing things which don't really handle the load

17 that they're supposed to. So --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

19 MR. STARR: -- or less than 100.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

21 MR. HUBER: The 110 percent is 110 percent

22 of BEP. It's not a load.
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1 MR. STARR: We're not speeding over.

2 MR. HUBER: We're not over-speeding. We're

3 not overloading the pump. It's 110 percent of BEP.

4 MR. STARR: Okay.

5 MR. POWERS: It would be the full operating

6 range of the pump.

7 MR. HUBER: It gives you more of an

8 operating range, and then the constant speed pumps,

9 which there's still going to be a lot of them out

10 there, they generally operate between 110 and 75.

11 That's why the Europeans went with that for pump only.

12 MR. STARR: (Speaking from an unmiked

13 location.)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm taking it that

15 everybody is comfortable with this, with these load

16 points, and now we're moving on to weighting.

17 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So weighting, we had

18 initially discussed an equal distribution. Louis had

19 also suggested perhaps a normal distribution that

20 would more heavily weight probably the 50 and 75

21 percent load points depending on how we applied the

22 normal distribution.
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1 I don't know if there's other suggestions.

2 We had initially suggested an equal weighting for the

3 same reason that we suggested sort of the these

4 representative load points as due to a lack of data

5 and the variability of loads in the field and load

6 profiles in the field and all these different

7 applications of pumps. Some pumps go to multiple

8 applications.

9 So that's where the equal weighting came

10 from. It just seemed a pretty consistent thing, and

11 also it was what was suggested by HI in response to

12 the framework document.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

15 Just out of curiosity, I'm just kind of

16 curious if you did any sort of estimate of energy

17 usage, if you did an equal weighting versus, let's

18 say, 100 percent. At 100 percent what would be the

19 annual energy difference?

20 MS. WIDDER: At 100 percent?

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, it's equal weighting

22 at 50, 75, 100 and 110.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Oh.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What if you just chose one

3 constant speed, let's say, 100 percent of BEP?

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What would the difference

6 be in terms of an annual energy for I don't want to

7 say a typical pump, but for maybe a pump that you've

8 looked at?

9 MS. WIDDER: Right. So we did do some of

10 that. I don't have the numbers here and we didn't do

11 the very extreme scenarios that you looked at. We did

12 look at equal weighting, and then we looked at more

13 heavily weighting, 75 and 100; more heavily weighting,

14 50 and 75; and less weighting, the lower load points

15 less than -- I mean, actually didn't matter that much

16 because the improvement in power sort of overwhelms

17 the whole PER thing.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What kind of variance did

19 you see?

20 MS. WIDDER: I would have to look back at

21 the numbers. This was a while ago. So I will bring

22 that to the next meeting.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I mean, that would help the

2 decision process --

3 MS. WIDDER: Yep, it certainly would.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- in my mind. Thank you.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Okay. Oh, one other

6 thing that Alison just mentioned, which I think is

7 worth adding, but we will bring examples to the next

8 meeting, is that if you change the weighting, it won't

9 change the ranking of pumps. It will just change the

10 value.

11 So in a way, the loading is arbitrary if

12 it's equally applied. That doesn't mean you don't

13 want to have a representative weight because you do

14 want your metric to be representative. We were

15 arguing that equal weighting is as representative as

16 anything else, but we certainly can bring whatever

17 data we have and some sensitivity analysis to the next

18 meeting.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

20 Thanks, because eventually that spills over

21 into the national impact analysis and the economic

22 analysis. So thank you.
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

3 MR. LIN: Maybe can I make a suggestion?

4 Instead of bringing it to the next one, can you send

5 it ahead of time so we can --

6 MS. WIDDER: Oh, yeah, yeah. We will try to

7 make materials available in advance, as much in

8 advance of the meeting as possible.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So I'm still waiting for

10 comments on weighting.

11 Chuck Powers.

12 MR. POWERS: But before that, before I can

13 go any further with anything to be fair to us,

14 everything you've shown us today needs to come to us

15 today.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

17 MR. POWERS: By email so we can share with

18 our other people and we can start studying this and

19 understanding their values and --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Or maybe tomorrow if they get

21 a chance to.

22 MR. POWERS: Whatever, next day or two.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Maximum.

2 MR. POWERS: Yeah, because --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: But exactly as they've shown

4 it so that they can just make sure that they note

5 clerical errors, that sort of thing.

6 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Did we get comments on

8 weighting, on whether it should be equal weighting or

9 there should be more of a distribution?

10 Al Huber.

11 MR. HUBER: We looked at this as the HI. The

12 Europeans have looked at it. The problem you have

13 with trying to focus in on a load profile is that it

14 varies with the application. It varies with the

15 system. It varies with the designer, and many times

16 they may think they have that, but you really don't

17 know what the load profile is until you actually put

18 the pump in and check it.

19 So we believe that because we're trying to

20 come up with a comparison of product, right? I mean,

21 in the end that's what you're doing, that as long as

22 we equally weight it, then nobody will be favored.
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1 And answer Steve's issue with wanting to go

2 to why not do the 100 percent, the reason that the

3 Europeans went 75, 110 and 100 is they didn't want

4 somebody to come up with a pump curve or a design

5 where you just hit BEP and it went off -- it went, you

6 know, like this, and it off -- it went, you know, like

7 this, and on either side it didn't perform.

8 And we know that out in the field it's not

9 going to -- most of the time probably not going to run

10 at 100 percent. So that's the reason they did that,

11 was in order to protect the consumer, and we don't

12 disagree with that.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

14 MR. ADIN: I think just speaking for DOE's

15 case the biggest issue that we've had is there's just

16 so little data on what load profiles really look like

17 in the field. I mean, it's -- excuse me -- kind of

18 all over the place, and so, you know, if really we're

19 going to try and focus on what's most realistic, we

20 may never get there at least in the scope of this

21 negotiation.

22 But to get to the broader point of how these
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1 load points might bear on calculations of national

2 energy use, national impact analysis, that sort of

3 thing, I think really what we're concerned about is

4 the comparison between the base case and the standards

5 case, and so if you use the same assumption for both,

6 you're still getting a measurement of what the

7 national energy savings would be, even if your

8 estimate of what the actual energy consumption is for

9 the base case isn't exactly accurate. At least you're

10 getting a consistent comparison.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thanks. Steve Rosenstock.

12 That's extremely helpful, and the only

13 reason I mention the 100 percent at one of those

14 loading factors was just because it sounds like there

15 is a significant portion of the market that is

16 constant speed application, constant flow application.

17 So, again, depending on the data, depending on the

18 research, that could also have an impact on this.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

20 MR. CASE: I would agree there is a huge

21 portion of the market that is constant speed, maybe

22 not constant flow, but once again, it's not at 100
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1 percent of BEP. It's some other spot.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Whatever it was -- Steve

3 Rosenstock, EEI -- whatever it was, I didn't mean to -

4 - I was just -- whatever that you thought it would be,

5 again.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

7 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.

8 The equal weighing ultimately I think, kind

9 of what Sarah is saying, it probably doesn't matter

10 too much which one you use, the equal weighting or the

11 normal distribution, but the only other thing it

12 probably does matter is with the other items in the

13 metric, which are the motors and the VFDs, and that

14 probably makes a lot of difference with those guys.

15 So that kind of in the future and also if

16 you think about if you're headed towards the test

17 procedure, maybe not now but down the road are those

18 points going to work for you?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I want to emphasize

21 Louis' point. In terms of the economic analysis, the

22 loading points are going to matter for pump efficiency
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1 where you look at the whole system, but since we're

2 only varying pump efficiency and not the rest of the

3 system to set the minimum standard, it shouldn't

4 matter for that analysis either, but it could if we

5 were trying to think about this as a system

6 performance target, but we're not. We're talking

7 about the pump.

8 So we've isolated and said those are going

9 to be default values for the purpose of determining

10 the pump efficiency. So I think we're okay with equal

11 weighting because they're not going to enter into the

12 equation in terms of the determination of savings from

13 improving those other parts of the drive system.

14 If we were, that's a different matter, but

15 we're not.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison.

17 I mean, we are hoping to be able to account

18 in the analyses for actual real life energy use. So --

19 MR. ECKMAN: I understand that, but in terms

20 of the concern about biasing, whether we would -- if

21 we were talking about changing the efficiency of the

22 entire system and we are considering the system as the
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1 target for the standard as opposed to just the pump,

2 then the cost of putting in different controls and

3 higher performance motors to get to a system number

4 that was improved would matter, and then loading does

5 matter.

6 But as long as we're just talking about

7 isolating the effect of improving the pump itself and

8 holding those others constant, that doesn't change the

9 economic analysis nor the performance.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. ECKMAN: So I'm okay with that is what

12 I'm saying.

13 MS. WIDDER: Good. And so one other thing,

14 just to tag onto Tom's point, in absence of data and

15 because we are isolating the pump as a starting point

16 in this rulemaking, those weightings are determined

17 for this rulemaking, you know, and so if we were -- if

18 DOE were to determine to reopen this rulemaking or

19 amend this rulemaking or amend the test procedure at a

20 later date, those weighting factors will still be

21 there as variables that can be adjusted to account for

22 either additional data or to improve the test
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1 procedure or account for more controls, technologies

2 that we have a better means of capturing.

3 MR. ECKMAN: One comment just occurred to me

4 because I may have overstated my enthusiasm. For

5 integrated products, where those things are sold as a

6 box, drive, motor control, that's a different matter,

7 and we have -- all of those are options for an

8 integrated product in my mind because we're talking

9 about a thing that is pieced together from all pieces.

10 That's not just a bare pump assembly anymore.

11 MS. WIDDER: Right.

12 MR. ECKMAN: It is an integrated product. So

13 you have to be careful about the weightings when we

14 talk about an integrated product, if we're going to

15 rate something that way.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

17 MR. HUBER: Well, today many manufacturers

18 sell it as an integrated product. I know you've got

19 in the back of your mind circulators, but there are

20 others of us who sell product that we ship, a pump

21 motor and VFD mounted together on a base plate. The

22 horsepower is way beyond circulators.
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1 So I'm telling you, Tom, and I'm trying to

2 be as honest as I can, the information is not out

3 there, and you'll never get agreement with anybody on

4 the load factors. You've got municipal; you've got

5 industrial; you've got HVAC. You've got all these

6 things, and we're never going to agree to that. That's

7 why HI chose to say, look, the only reasonable

8 approach at this point is just equal distribution of

9 the load.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Trust me. I've been working

11 for seven years to get an end use load research

12 project off the ground.

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. ECKMAN: So I'm with you.

15 MS. WIDDER: The other thing I'll just

16 clarify is to make sure we're all clear on the

17 application of the weighting. So we will account for,

18 to the extent possible and the extent we have any

19 scrapings of data, real load shapes in the energy use

20 analysis and will account for energy use and use these

21 load -- I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Alison -- but

22 use the efficiency at the load points, not the PER in
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1 general, to represent the energy use for pumps.

2 And so even though we're applying equal

3 weighting in terms of determining the metric, that

4 doesn't limit us to assume equal weighting in the load

5 profiles that we apply for the energy use analysis to

6 determine the impacts of standards.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I mean, but just

8 specifically the plan for the energy analysis to

9 actually take a database of pumps with real

10 performance data and match it to customers and real

11 with customers with loads and see where the energy use

12 falls out. So the weights aren't really there.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

15 I agree with Al that applications vary

16 widely, and it's probably not practical to think we

17 can come up with a load factor for everything.

18 However, there are some niche applications where I

19 think we probably can come up with a reasonable load

20 factor and get the benefit of utilizing that in our

21 methodology.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.
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1 MR. STARR: So Louis Starr with NEEA.

2 The only other thing I was thinking about is

3 kind of trying to make sure that whatever point you

4 use your load points or whatever those points are is

5 that the data is being collected in other things, such

6 as AHRI 1210, and if they're doing stuff on the

7 motors, that you're able to leverage that information

8 down the road.

9 So whatever you pick can influence those

10 things. So it's just something to think about.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah, we --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah.

13 MS. WIDDER: -- we definitely are

14 considering that. I think it's going to be difficult

15 due to the discrete nature of the pump size and the

16 motor drive size like we talked about before. You're

17 going to have to do some interpolation sort of no

18 matter what, but that's definitely something that

19 we've considered and can talk through how that might

20 work next time.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck.

22 MR. POWERS: Chuck at Flowserve.
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1 I think also I know I just got some

2 correspondence from my team if this is the path we

3 take, and I've actually corresponded with a couple

4 other companies out there. We're going to probably

5 have to do an evaluation on the variance between EU,

6 and that's outcome numbers and impact, and what you

7 guys want to do. We'll have to do that ourselves.

8 And the reason is Charlie brought it up

9 earlier or Al or something. If, you know, 20 percent

10 of my product on a particular one, okay, is impacted

11 by this, but that same product if I'm lucky enough

12 that way, ISO or not ISO metric and all that, is built

13 offshore, then what we have to do is say, okay, how

14 many millions of dollars do we have to spend.

15 And this was a Flowserve. How many millions

16 of dollars do we have to spend to be compliant with

17 the 20 percent we make versus the other 80 percent

18 that EU is okay with or we're okay with or whatever?

19 And then to Charlie's point, if we had to

20 vary the designs and have two designs now rather than

21 one, you know, it could -- you know, we have to look

22 at all of that in the variables.
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1 Now, if you go to a smaller company, it

2 could be quite detrimental to them in a big way, and

3 because they may only be a domestic player and

4 whatever, and, okay, maybe the government only cares

5 that there are only 50 people in the company and we

6 can do away with them, fine, but that's not my mode

7 here, right?

8 Secondly, what I'm concerned about and some

9 of the communications I'm getting back is the

10 decisions here, which is great. There are a lot of

11 other factors involved, right, with going to the

12 market and how now we have to communicate to our third

13 party sales to say, hey, look.

14 Here's our pump gig and here's what we're

15 doing here, but you have to make sure on the motor, on

16 the VFD you follow these rules, too, because Big

17 Brother is going to come back to the pump guy and say,

18 "How are you managing this and how are you regulating

19 it?" right?

20 So there's a lot of pieces here because the

21 concern is right, wrong and indifferent, and there's

22 probably a whole level of reasons why, we used to be
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1 the king of motors in the U.S. We are no longer.

2 They're all made offshore.

3 There is a handful. Don't get me wrong. You

4 can find a few here and there, but the motor

5 manufacturers are almost all offshore, right? And the

6 pump industry when we did some studies, 20 years ago

7 there were a lot of them in the U.S. There's not as

8 many in the U.S. There's still quite a few.

9 So we've got to be careful that the

10 migration -- and here's my concern -- I'm not arguing

11 we've got to do this. I'm not arguing that we have to

12 approve efficiency. Everybody's on board. I'm not

13 arguing that we have to improve technology and do some

14 good stuff. No argument.

15 Where it's made and where that technology

16 changes may be offshore because the costs are going to

17 be less. It's closer to the foundries which we all

18 know are offshore, the majority of them. So we get

19 closer to that technology, okay, we have to bring it

20 to the States and meet a certain criteria, but all of

21 a sudden the jobs here are lost and they go offshore

22 to be able to do that.
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1 It's all good stuff, but what we have to do

2 as pump guys, we're going to have to balance this. We

3 have to look at all of this and see where that's going

4 to be because it isn't going down to Walmart and

5 buying a unit off the shelf for your house. Okay?

6 It's a different ballgame here, a totally different

7 ballgame.

8 So it's just factors that we have to look

9 at. This is a real game here. This is not just a

10 couple sheets to get thrown at us the first day and

11 look at a couple of numbers and assume we're all

12 happy. It's not kumbaya. You know what I mean?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Steve Thompson, TACO.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Try it.

16 MR. THOMPSON: How's that?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

18 MR. THOMPSON: So the most efficient way to

19 drive your car is to have to modulate the speed of the

20 car with your foot on the gas pedal and not put your

21 foot on the brake pedal. So in an HVAC application

22 you're talking about different load points. I'm
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1 seeing the word "flow" up there, and I'm trying to get

2 my head around what this -- the other part of this

3 point is, which would be "head."

4 MS. WIDDER: Oh.

5 MR. THOMPSON: And trying to match the most

6 efficient HVAC closed loop pump or circulator would be

7 one that would very closely match the system curve.

8 So the two technologies that are -- that

9 there's more than two technologies, but there's one

10 technology that's called self-sensing or sensorless

11 where the algorithms of the performance curves are

12 programmed into the drive, and it has a -- some have a

13 linearly inclining, straight line incline performance

14 curve. Some have parabolic incline performance curve

15 that's programmed into the drive.

16 How would you weight that control strategy

17 against pump and motor and frequency drive that

18 directly responds to a building management system?

19 So you've got a pump that reacts to a

20 building management system. Then you've got a pump21 motor-drive combination that has its own logic. How

22 would you weight those two different control
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1 strategies?

2 MS. WIDDER: So that is an excellent

3 question, and so I'm going to -- I think there was two

4 parts there. The first was the load points and the

5 fact that they're a percentage of flow and there's no

6 head variable. So I'm just going to respond to that

7 really quickly and make sure we're all on the same

8 page, and I'm going to keep the question about a I'm

9 going to call it a closed loop control versus one that

10 responds to a building automation system.

11 So first, if you look at in B, you can see

12 the system curve with the darker green dots there. Let

13 me make this bigger or I could draw it, I suppose

14 might help.

15 Okay. So following this system curve down,

16 these axes aren't labeled, but the Y axis is head and

17 the X axis is flow, and so just in terms of specifying

18 the points, we're allowing the pump curve to -- so the

19 way this would go from a testing perspective is you

20 would determine the BEP flow and head point.

21 So there's a BEP flow and head point for

22 each pump, and then the loading points back from or
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1 around the BEP flow and head point would be based on

2 flow, changing the flow variable only, and then head

3 we'll just change according to either the pump curve

4 if there's no control or according to the system curve

5 if there is control.

6 So we're just adjusting flow and letting

7 head be what it is, yeah.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So, Sarah, I think the answer

9 to Steve's question is that your factor is the same

10 for both because they both have a drive. Okay? So

11 you're not factoring in any sort of efficiency

12 improvement based on the control type. You're just

13 saying there's a drive. So this control factor goes

14 in here.

15 MS. WIDDER: So I didn't address that

16 question yet, but, yeah, you're getting ahead of me.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

18 MS. WIDDER: So in answer to that, so I was

19 just trying to get at his flow versus head, why are we

20 only talking about flow thing. But talking about the

21 different kinds of controls --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, do you want to jump in?
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. I think what Steve was

2 trying to say is that there's different ways to

3 control the VFD.

4 MS. WIDDER: Right.

5 MR. HANDZEL: And different input signals,

6 you know, and the centralist one he was talking, and

7 it's really operating off the motor amperage is what

8 it's doing.

9 MS. WIDDER: Right.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Sensing amperage and

11 controlling that way --

12 MS. WIDDER: Right.

13 MR. HANDZEL: -- versus the other one, truly

14 measuring the system head and what's needed in the

15 system, and it slows the pumps down to match the

16 requirement systems.

17 So it's a -- again, they're both a drive,

18 but --

19 MS. WIDDER: Right.

20 MR. HANDZEL: -- they just have different

21 control inputs telling the drive what to do.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right. No, I'm totally with
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1 you. So if -- and we're really just talking about A

2 here. I mean, that's where if we did a full wire to

3 water test, that performance would clearly be

4 differentiated. If we did B where AHRI 1210 data or

5 similar is available, we would also see that

6 difference in performance from like a straight line

7 system curve versus a parabolic system curve.

8 So B and C, I think we're okay there. They

9 allow us to differentiate between control methods

10 because there's physical testing at the load points.

11 Oh, sorry.

12 But for A, that's really where the rubber

13 hits the road, and that's what we're talking about

14 because it's the least burdensome to apply. So for

15 the default controls performance that we apply, this

16 load control factor for -- the difficulty is for every

17 type of control that we might want to differentiate or

18 represent, we would have to come up with a load

19 control factor that everybody applied in order to

20 differentiate.

21 So for that example, a VSD could have a

22 certain load control factor. Let's call it .46; a
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1 sensorless control that did a straight line. We could

2 specify them very clearly, would have a load control

3 factor of .6 instead because we're representing that

4 head isn't dropping off quite a quickly.

5 These are just hypothetical examples, but we

6 aren't limited to only one load control factor. It

7 could be load control factor A where A is whatever

8 control, and we can specify as many controls as we can

9 think of and specify a representative system curve for

10 each of those controls.

11 So how that would have the pump head reduced

12 or the power reduced as flow is reduced, we would need

13 this committee's help in generating that list of

14 representative control technologies. We can think of

15 some, but that would be something if we were to go

16 down this A path that would probably be something we'd

17 want to consider, is a list of technologies and a

18 different system curve resulting in a different load

19 control factor for each technology.

20 The struggle there is then we're locked in

21 to technologies in a way. So yeah. Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MS. WIDDER: So --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie.

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT.

4 So, Sarah, if you go back to the previous

5 slide.

6 MS. WIDDER: This one?

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah. Are you envisioning

8 a regulation that would actually drive more use of

9 variable speed drives or adjustable speed drives with

10 the approach that we're taking here?

11 MS. WIDDER: So I'm --

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: It's a fundamental

13 question.

14 MS. WIDDER: It is.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: And what I'm trying to

16 understand is, again, it's this --

17 MS. WIDDER: Right.

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- labeling idea and

19 understanding energy usage versus regulation, and I

20 keep going back to bare pump versus bare pump plus

21 motor.

22 MS. WIDDER: Right.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: And then the bare pump plus

2 motor plus drive, and how will regulation drive

3 because I think we all understand that in some

4 applications the variable speed drive or adjustable

5 speed drive does produce significant energy savings

6 and in some cases it doesn't.

7 So how does the work that you're doing move

8 us in the direction of energy savings and more

9 adoption of adjustable speed drives when it makes

10 sense?

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

13 MR. ADIN: Let me see if I can address that.

14 So to some extent it depends on what you mean by the

15 regulation because the way we've been discussing it

16 conceivably there would be two parts. There would be

17 the efficiency standard part of it, and then there

18 would be a labeling component, and each one of those

19 could have an impact on --

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: Right? So one affects the

22 physical changes that are being made to products being
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1 sold in the market to make them more efficient, and

2 the way that we've conceptualized the development of a

3 standard, that focus is just on the pump, the bare

4 pump component of it.

5 So there would be efficiency improvements

6 made to the pump, and there would be an energy savings

7 associated with that improvement there. But then with

8 the way that this metric is being conceptualized and

9 the way it could be shown on a label for, you know,

10 the broader system type of pump out to the drive, then

11 you'd be showing the savings that are associated with

12 the use of variable speed drive.

13 So that would influence consumer choices.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: It's more of a labeling

15 approach.

16 MR. ADIN: Right, and so conceivably there

17 are -- and you know, that might be a little bit harder

18 to quantify because we can't necessarily predict how

19 consumers will respond to that, but there is

20 potentially a significant savings to be realized from

21 consumers making choices based on that piece of

22 information.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.

3 MS. MAUER: Joanna.

4 Just in regards to your question, Charlie, I

5 mean, I think it maybe comes down to product classes

6 and, you know, would we set separate standards for the

7 three configurations, bare pump, pump plus motor, pump

8 plus motor and controls, or you know, we've tried to

9 do some thinking about, you know, could we define some

10 category of pumps where it would make sense to have,

11 regardless of whether you're selling a pump with just

12 a motor or a pump with a motor and controls, you'd

13 have to meet the same standard, and if you set a high

14 level, you could effectively require that pumps with

15 motors also be sold with a VFD.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: For specific product

17 classes.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie, please use the

19 microphone.

20 MR. CAPPELLINO: For specific product

21 classes as far as that last piece is concerned?

22 MS. MAUER: So right. I think we've tried
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1 to think about is there some subset of pumps where

2 that approach might make sense, and what we were

3 considering is, for example, low horsepower pumps

4 where our understanding is that pumps tend to be sold

5 with a motor by the manufacturer today, and that may

6 be a subset of pumps where a VFD is generally

7 beneficial.

8 And I don't know if those two things are

9 true or not, but we are trying to think about is there

10 a subset of pumps where they tend to be sold by the

11 pump manufacturer with the motor and where adding of

12 the VFD would, you know, generally be beneficial in

13 terms of energy savings.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, do you want in here?

15 Okay. No? Steve Rosenstock.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

17 Again, just thinking about other products

18 that are regulated, lumens per watt for lighting or

19 EER or AFUE, it's the product, where the metric is for

20 the product. If the consumer adds a control or

21 there's a building code requirement for a control,

22 that adds on top of those savings that are required by
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1 the standard.

2 So it's really up to this group and it's

3 eventually up to DOE in terms of, you know, what is

4 the boundary of the standard. What is it going after

5 in terms of generically improving the efficiency of

6 all pumps or generically not only improving the

7 efficiency of the pumps, but structuring the standard

8 such that for certain classes of pumps they're pretty

9 much going to have to put in some sort of control to

10 meet the efficiency standard.

11 Again, that's a high level, but again, just

12 have to just thinking about what's been done in the

13 past.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

15 MR. ADIN: It's a good question, and as far

16 as we're concerned, it's still an open question. I

17 mean, we don't want to suggest -- I mean, again, we've

18 stated this a bunch, ad nauseam.

19 But you know, by putting this up here we're

20 not saying DOE has decided this is what we can do and

21 it's the only way it can be done, but to the extent we

22 -- certainly to the extent we make a decision to set a
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1 standard for a certain subset of products or class of

2 products, whatever it is that would be designed to

3 compel the use of a variable speed drive based on the

4 standard level you set, obviously we need to know

5 really what are the economic considerations there.

6 So that's kind of obviously perhaps, but you

7 know, it would be another set of data that we need to

8 get and make sure we fully understand that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

10 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

11 Another thing to think about, if the

12 standards are set up in such a way there can be

13 utility programs that will essentially be a floor

14 that's set out there so that the utility programs to

15 incent the use of various technologies that make sense

16 and system designs so it can be a good way to increase

17 the adoption of certain things.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

20 I mean, we're still, I think, struggling

21 with, you know, is there a requirement to put a drive

22 with all pumps are being sold or what's the definition
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1 of when a drive needs to be used with a pump.

2 And I think, you know, we on the pump

3 manufacturers' side clearly see it as an application

4 type basis, but we know we can't regulate

5 applications. So we kind of feel like we're chasing

6 our tail, I think, a little bit right now.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

8 MR. HANDZEL: I don't want to speak for all

9 my fellow manufacturers.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, right.

11 MR. HANDZEL: But I think that's the

12 position we're in, trying to understand how this will

13 drive the market this way.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So --

15 MR. ADIN: Understood. I mean, to some

16 extent I feel like we're kind of going in circles a

17 little bit, but circulating, if you will.

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. ADIN: Sorry. Got to get one in there

20 at least once a day.

21 So what we've proposed -- not proposed, but

22 I mean what we've put up here and what we've been
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1 talking about wouldn't necessarily do that. Right? It

2 would --

3 MR. HANDZEL: Provide a method of measure.

4 MR. ADIN: That's right, and you could write

5 a standard that just uses assumptions for those

6 configurations that use a drive. So really at the end

7 of the day you're just driving the pump efficiency to

8 improve.

9 The metric would allow for the use of other

10 components, the motor or the drive, that are above

11 that assumed baseline, and you could still represent a

12 number that's better than whatever the standard would

13 compel you to do.

14 But you wouldn't be in this particular case

15 setting a standard that compels someone who only

16 manufactures a pump or pump with a motor to put a

17 drive on it to meet the standard. You'd be comparing

18 a pump that's already sold with a drive to a standard

19 that's based on the use of a drive, not across those

20 configurations.

21 Does that help?

22 MS. WIDDER: Is it maybe worthwhile to
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1 revisit the criteria upon which DOE must consider when

2 setting standards, like utility and economic impact?

3 So DOE has to account for all of those

4 things, the availability of - the utility of pumps for

5 a constant speed application, for example, as well as

6 the economic impact to manufacturers and consumers, as

7 well as energy savings when setting a standard.

8 So to do what Joanna -- in other equipment

9 classes, to do what Joanna talked about where the

10 standard is set in such a way that it, in effect,

11 compels a certain technology, DOE is limited in the

12 way that it can do that because it cannot limit its

13 utility or availability of products in the marketplace

14 that serve a particular need, if that makes sense.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, please.

16 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, Mark Handzel from Xylem.

17 And I guess, you know, when I sit and look

18 at businesses and markets, you know, Steve, obviously

19 you're heavily involved with ASHRAE 90.1. I could see

20 ASHRAE 90.1 taking this PER, whatever we're going to

21 call it, SER, whatever, and putting in a number and

22 saying for building applications, you know, variable
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1 load applications, you will hit a PER of this.

2 You know, so for that market, I think

3 there's a regulatory way that it can be, you know,

4 mandated where it's very applicable. Other markets,

5 that's I guess the struggle.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

8 Well, ASHRAE just takes -- they publish the

9 efficiency standards typically either ASHRAE developed

10 of the ones from the federal government, and then they

11 add controls and drives on top of that. I mean, for

12 certain equipment if you have a motor that's over a

13 quarter -- now it's down to a quarter of a horsepower

14 for certainly applications -- you have to put a drive

15 on it for certain HVAC applications.

16 For other applications it's like five

17 horsepower. So they don't say what kind of drive.

18 They just say you have to put it in to add onto this

19 to make it more efficient. That's it.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Louis, do you want add

21 on, and then to Gary?

22 MR. STARR: Yeah. Well, for 90.1-2013, for
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1 fans that are less than two horsepower, which fans and

2 pumps are not that far apart if you think about it,

3 they require ECM motors. So that's a technology,

4 right?

5 So I mean, the standards, the 90.1 is doing

6 that, and they're just a prescriptive requirement.

7 They don't go into all of this, you know, complexity.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.

10 What we're talking about here is intent, and

11 maybe the California example would be good to use to

12 illustrate our intent. It's what we've done with the

13 swimming pool pumps.

14 So that's a specialized application. It's,

15 you know, not big pumps. It's not all pumps in

16 general, but the intent was to try and find a way to

17 address through regulation not only new construction

18 but replacement because these products have a life of

19 about ten years, and they're usually replaced in the

20 whole, although you can replace the motor only.

21 We developed a metric that takes into

22 account the benefit of reduced speed operation. We
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1 haven't required variable speed because we think

2 that's too big a step for the present, but we did

3 require two-speed for products over one total

4 horsepower.

5 And I hope through this proceeding we can

6 come to take a step forward in valuing the benefit

7 associated with controls and drives for reduced speed

8 operation, although I don't think we should go so far

9 as to do something that might require certain kinds of

10 controls at this point.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

12 MR. LIN: Maybe my view is that -- and

13 that's why I was talking more about being able to

14 differentiate the watts of different technologies as

15 well as the control methodology -- is that not

16 necessarily setting a standard that would require

17 that, but having a method in which everyone is

18 evaluated the same, and then therefore, with our

19 utility partners can then have a method of having a

20 rebate program like our extended product discussion

21 that we were all kind of in.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 There have been a lot of utility programs

3 out for years, and some of them cover drives and some

4 of them don't.

5 In terms of the DOE standard that's written

6 basically in the absence of any outside incentive

7 program, it's designed to be the minimum standard for

8 all products sold in the U.S., who are imported in the

9 U.S., regardless of how many, you know, how many

10 programs there are.

11 So it's always good to know and always to

12 see, you know, in terms of non-regulatory type of

13 analysis, but you know, when push comes to shove, it's

14 basically this is in the absence of outside

15 incentives. You know, this is going to be the

16 standard regardless of current incentives or past

17 incentives. This is going to be the standard from now

18 on after a certain date.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Lucas Adin.

20 MR. ADIN: Just to follow on to that

21 comment, I mean, Steve's absolutely right that this --

22 for the purpose of setting a standard, we're not
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1 considering what utilities might do as far as

2 incentive programs, but certainly having a

3 standardized metric and test procedure that, you know,

4 a follow-on benefit to having those things, and so,

5 yeah, it would be potentially, right, helpful in that

6 respect.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So to reiterate what Lucas

8 said about five minutes ago, to empathize with you,

9 Mark, and the fellow manufacturers, you're in kind of

10 right now, the stage of this negotiation that's kind

11 of in this "Netherland," it is an open question, what

12 gets regulated, the things for which standards get set

13 and the levels at which they get set.

14 Ad we're moving rapidly in that direction.

15 We've made huge progress in the last -- yesterday and

16 in previous days where we're setting ourselves up with

17 the metric and the test procedure discussion that will

18 begin with next time, and also zeroing in on this

19 scope to really, really get a much clearer picture of

20 how this is going to land on manufacturers and how

21 it's going to affect utility programs and affect the

22 energy savings that the energy efficiency advocates
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1 are so interested in.

2 But having said that, I think we should take

3 lunch. We've made a lot of progress today.

4 Chuck, you're going to leave us at one. So

5 I think that means that when we return one o'clock,

6 you're going to be gone.

7 When we return from lunch and Charlie, and

8 maybe shortly thereafter you're going to be leaving as

9 well; when we return from lunch, I want to get any

10 additional questions, comments on the metric. I

11 thought we gained a lot of ground on that today, and

12 also look ahead to the next meeting or beyond the next

13 meeting to make sure that we're clear on what we need

14 to be put out there in less than three weeks.

15 Okay. So it's now almost one or noon,

16 almost noon. We'll resume at one o'clock and see you

17 back here.

18 Please make sure to wear your badges in the

19 building.

20 (Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., the meeting

21 was recessed for lunch, to reconvene

22 at 1:00 p.m., the same day.)
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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume.

3 Hey, Jack, do we have folks joining us via

4 the Web? How many? Five individuals via the Web.

5 The Department of Energy, for those of you

6 joining us via the Web, tries to make these meetings

7 accessible to all via the Web. So welcome. Glad you

8 could listen in on this working group meeting.

9 At the lunch break, Alison queried Greg Case

10 and asked about the meeting. They deferred on dinner

11 and all recreation last night so they could meet at

12 length to compile data and do analysis.

13 I know this because this morning Al Huber

14 asked me for some sort of a statement that he could

15 give to the IRS to claim that it was actual meeting

16 time put in.

17 Anyway, Alison, do you have this information

18 now? Are you in a position to?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg said you would be doing

21 it, Greg Case.

22 Alison.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So we're just updating

2 the circulator data from yesterday. So the

3 manufacturers said they were going to collect an

4 estimated delta price for switching from AC induction

5 to ECM motors for the circulator.

6 So for the 1/25th to quarter horsepower,

7 they came up with $112.50 as the current price

8 differential. Using the terawatt hour savings and 11

9 cents per kilowatt hour, that's approximately $10

10 annual electricity cost savings.

11 So with a $113 delta price it's a 12-year

12 payback. However, just to note that the delta price

13 is the current market price, and it may be that, you

14 know, when we do -- if we did analysis for this, we

15 would look at actual cost differentials. We would

16 look at how it might change over time as the market

17 matures a little bit more.

18 So this is sort of just a snapshot in time

19 and does not necessarily mean that that 12-year

20 payback would hold for a long-term period.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Comments? Elucidations

22 from members of the manufacturing caucus? No? Nothing
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1 additional?

2 Greg?

3 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

4 I guess that compares pretty well with our

5 calculation on Gary's data yesterday that we came back

6 with 13.5 years with your calculation, so bringing it

7 back down to 2,150 hours. So that's -- that seems

8 pretty reasonable.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, also that doesn't take

11 into account the -- I don't think adequately -- the

12 water recirculation utilization.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is only constant full

14 load energy savings, switching from AC to ECM. So

15 it's really just reduced wattage of an equivalent ECM.

16 So it's not taking into account any sort of loading or

17 anything like that.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So realistically in doing

19 this we looked at the opportunity to reduce speed a

20 little bit and we want to see factored into the

21 analysis the incidence of hot water recirculation

22 where we believe the operating hours are much higher.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So as I mentioned yesterday,

2 we were hoping to separate hot water from hydronic or

3 potable water from hydronic heating, but we cannot.

4 We're not able to because we don't have enough

5 differentiation of the material types for the

6 circulators.

7 So at this point we don't have that data.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.

9 MR. STARR: So what's the wattage of the

10 pump that's for the $10 one and then the 37?

11 MR. CASE: One/twenty-fifth.

12 MR. STARR: One/twenty-fifth?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So I guess so the $10 is

14 actually from the weighted average wattage between

15 1/25th and one quarter horsepower, which I don't

16 recall the wattage on that at the moment.

17 Can you look at -- Dan's going to look it

18 up.

19 MR. STARR: So that's 31 watts. You take

20 778, one horsepower and it's 1/25th. So divided by 20

21 to the -- that's 31 watts in terms of the energy.

22 Go.
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Get a microphone, Dan.

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

4 As we've discussed with the manufacturers,

5 those nameplate horsepowers do not convert to actual

6 watts that are drawn by the motor, right? Your 1/25th

7 on average is about 85 watts, 90 watts, 100 watts,

8 something like that. So just to put it in

9 perspective.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Dan.

11 Gary.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.

13 So I've been real clear about my two issues,

14 you know, one hot water domestic circulation and, two,

15 reduced speed operation.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. All right. Consulting

17 with Alison, are you finished presenting?

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Consulting with Alison over

20 lunch, I was inquiring about the data that we

21 anticipate that's going to be available at our next

22 meeting, and she told me that she expects that Al and
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1 the manufacturers, that their effort to obtain

2 additional data would basically get new data, we hope,

3 additional data on virtually all of the pump types

4 listed in yellow with the exception of circulators.

5 That is, she didn't anticipate any additional

6 information would be coming forth, any additional data

7 for circulators, and so -- go ahead, Al, please.

8 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson.

9 She currently has all the data we have. So

10 there will be no additional data.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that's what I was

12 trying to say.

13 MR. HUBER: Yeah, and there will be no

14 additional data for that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Which is, right, no

16 additional data on circulators. So what we have now

17 is what we're going to have next meeting and perhaps

18 the meeting thereafter maybe for the -- till the end

19 of this negotiation.

20 So go ahead, Gary.

21 I mean, aside from the data that you're

22 creating that your test --
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. Thank you,

2 Doug.

3 Right, you know, what we have now is what

4 we're going to have. We may get a little more

5 clarification of the market in California that we can

6 share with the DOE consultants. Certainly, we can't

7 do that nationally.

8 The price of electricity is considerably

9 different as a national average than it is where we

10 live. So we might choose to debate the price. We've

11 chosen the smallest size circulator pumps to analyze

12 here.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: We've analyzed them only in

15 one mode of operation, which is at full speed. So I

16 think there's more discussion to have, but we're

17 zeroing in on all the information we're going to be

18 able to get.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas.

20 MR. ADIN: So I guess I just have a

21 question, and this is for the group generally.

22 But with respect to the decision at hand,
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1 with respect to circulators which coming out of the

2 last meeting my sense was that it had less to do with

3 whether we're going to cover or whether we're going to

4 write a standard for circulators at all, but more

5 rather whether we're going to do it as part of this

6 rulemaking or follow-on, and so the question is: what

7 is it, for those in this group who are undecided on

8 that point, what is it that you think would help

9 clarify in your mind what we should do in that regard?

10 What would help you decide on that point at this

11 point?

12 Because certainly if we're going to

13 recommend it as something for a follow-on to the

14 ASRAC, we need to decide that or it would be better to

15 decide it relatively soon.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary.

17 I think you raise an excellent point. I

18 don't know how much information we're going to be able

19 to get to address this later in any way different than

20 we can address it now.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

22 MR. STARR: You know, one thought, too, is I
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1 guess we're going to have a roll-up or roll-out of the

2 different pumps that were initially estimated in their

3 savings estimates, and so it looked like those numbers

4 weren't so accurate. So the pump guys are going back

5 and providing information.

6 And so there's different classes of pumps

7 and how much national energy savings or I can't

8 remember if it's put out that way, but how much

9 national energy savings for each one of the classes of

10 pumps.

11 So, you know, I guess the circulators are

12 going to be part of that, too, and you know, there's a

13 lot of things in here on these analyses. Like the

14 national energy savings is assuming a five-year life

15 of these pumps, and it might realistically be ten

16 years. Well, that's not just a factor to 30-year

17 shipment. So we have --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I changed it to seven to ten

19 years.

20 MR. STARR: Oh, okay. But anyway, there's a

21 lot of things that sort of roll up and change those

22 numbers, and you know, in my mind there should be at
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1 least somewhat of a -- there's a more accurate

2 analysis that would be done, you know, rather than

3 just assuming that a certain number of hours -- and

4 it's kind of really I see it as sort of DOE's role to

5 kind of come up with some of those numbers so that a

6 decision could be made similar with the other pumps.

7 So the same exercise that we started out

8 with initially, and everybody looked at the numbers

9 and they had some problems with them, but then that --

10 that would have the same kind of similar analysis

11 coming up with an energy savings.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison.

13 I mean, I think I'm just going to respond to

14 part of this, and Lucas can jump in or whatever, but,

15 I mean, the data that the manufacturers are providing

16 for us from the 25 manufacturers is for pumps only.

17 These are updated circulator numbers from what we

18 showed last time. We already received updated data

19 from the circulator manufacturers, and this is it.

20 A more extensive analysis is pretty time

21 consuming for circulators, and so at this point we

22 have focused our resources on creating models for the
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1 11 type pumps. We would have to create essentially

2 completely different models with different

3 assumptions, different structural things, all sorts of

4 things for circulators.

5 So just from an analytical standpoint, it's

6 a little more difficult. I mean, our plan with the

7 data that they provide us for the green and yellow

8 pumps, not including circulators is to redo the energy

9 use estimates and to do an estimate of the energy

10 savings from increasing pump efficiency to a few

11 different levels, and that's that the level of

12 analysis that we hope to be prepared to present next

13 week as far as those pump types, to help determine if

14 they're involved or not.

15 And the full analyses, LCC energy use,

16 national energy savings, typically we're not planning

17 to do until pump types are decided for coverage.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yesterday -- I think it was

19 yesterday -- the question was if DOE tried to do

20 analysis on all of this would that diminish their

21 capacity to do more detailed analysis on a subset of

22 these pump types, and I think you're sort of answering
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1 that question.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, so

3 specifically for circulators from an analytical

4 standpoint, we would conduct separate engineering

5 analysis, separate energy use analysis, separate LCC.

6 Many of the other pump types in yellow we could

7 probably fold into the existing structure of the

8 analyses that we already have planned for the ones in

9 green.

10 So the circulators are a little bit

11 different of an animal analytically to pursue and

12 potentially with the test procedure as well.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

15 So, Alison, we're not suggesting that a

16 different form of analysis needs to be done. We're

17 simply asking that in the next few weeks you revisit

18 with us some of the basic assumptions that were made

19 in this analysis.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. FERNSTROM: And you know, we'd be happy

22 if we could have that discussion with you.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, okay. And so you would

2 do that in between the meetings?

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

5 Steve Thompson.

6 MR. THOMPSON: So just for clarification,

7 there is more data that we sent you folks that hasn't

8 been presented yet, and that was the manufacturing

9 impact on switching motors over to ECM motors. So I

10 don't know if everybody has responded to you on that

11 part, but I know we did.

12 Gary, to your point about annual operating

13 hours on domestic hot water recirc. pumps, the

14 analysis and the 2,150 hours or 2,160 hours for a

15 heating circulator is based on a six-month season

16 running that circulator 12 months a day or -- pardon

17 me -- 12 hours a day, which is probably more -- it's

18 probably more than actually in reality happens. In a

19 domestic hot water recirc. we -- HI came up with the

20 same number, the 2,160 hours, that's running a

21 domestic hot water recirc. six hours a day 12 months

22 of the year.
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1 So if you're circulate -- if your domestic

2 hot water recircs. Are running more than six hours a

3 day, then that's like -- that's like penalizing

4 circulator manufacturers the same way you would

5 penalize automotive manufacturers by not turning your

6 car off. That's not as much a function of the

7 technical design of the circulator as it is as much a

8 function of how you're turning it on and off, my

9 opinion.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: -- this is Gary.

13 Are you suggesting that residences only wish

14 to have and have instant hot water at their tap six

15 hours a day?

16 Many of the residents I have seen simply

17 operate their hot water recirculation pumps 24 hours a

18 day so whenever they go to the tap they get hot water.

19 MR. THOMPSON: There's more and more

20 technology -- Steve Thompson of TACO. Did I do that

21 right?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
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1 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. There's a number of

2 various different control strategies that will

3 actually enable domestic hot water circulator. There's

4 self-learning technologies where they'll learn the

5 consumer's usage. There is wireless sensors that

6 actually -- motion sensors that can tell you when the

7 person walks into the room.

8 There's 24-hour timers that are set to turn

9 the pump on when you schedule it. So and I'm not

10 suggesting that an ECM domestic hot water circulator

11 is not going to save energy. It's going to save and

12 we talked about this. At least 50 percent of the

13 electrical energy is going to be saved right off the

14 bat by going from standard AC to ECM circulators.

15 I'm just - it's hard for the circulator

16 group or the Hydraulic Institute to come up with some

17 quantifiable hours of operation. That's what makes it

18 tough.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

20 I agree with you it's tough to come up with

21 these hours of operation, but I'm telling you that our

22 observation is that these available and capable
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1 control systems are not used, and they're not used

2 particularly in retrofit where a domestic hot water

3 recirculator may fail and the plumber goes out and

4 just replaces it.

5 The plumber goes out and says, "I'm going to

6 have to be replacing your circulator pump. I can put

7 in this control system that's going to save you some

8 money for several hundred dollars."

9 There doesn't seem to be a discussion around

10 "by the way, I could sell you this more efficient

11 circulator which is going to save you a lot of energy

12 regardless of how you may turn it on and off," and I'm

13 just trying to get to the point where we might

14 encourage or require by standards the more efficient

15 circulator which is going to have a big market effect

16 in the retrofit market, where these capable but

17 sophisticated controls don't seem to be utilized.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

19 MR. STARR: You know, in terms of the

20 analysis I was talking about, I'm not talking about a

21 full-blown, you know, DOE-whatever life cycle cost

22 analysis. I'm just talking about some more basic
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1 things.

2 I mean, I guess I just start out here, I

3 mean, the cost savings, we're looking at the smallest

4 pump that there is in the one-quarter horsepower. You

5 know, there's kind of understanding what that wattage

6 is and some, you know, using the 2,100. Perhaps

7 that's reasonable for the smallest class.

8 The next class up or even in the one-quarter

9 size, it's really a commercial application most

10 likely, and so then we're talking about maybe running

11 all the time that the building is available, which is

12 4,000 hours.

13 And then you talk about the lifespan of the

14 pump. Well, that changes your energy savings by more

15 than a factor of three or four probably when you went

16 from five years to ten years. So there's a whole

17 bunch of things like that.

18 The price, you know, probably fine with the

19 price on that, but just some more robust kind of

20 numbers in there that kind of maybe reflect, you know,

21 essentially maybe a little bit of DOE analysis. I

22 think we saw that in the first place. I think they
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1 had 155 watts as the original number, and so I think

2 we've reduced down a little bit from that number to

3 get the $10.

4 So there's just a number of things in there

5 that I'd kind of like DOE to come up with, and this

6 is, you know, just a spend an hour on it and come up

7 with some numbers and show them. That's what I'd be

8 interested in.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks for the

10 clarification.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, so I'm just going to

12 throw a couple of things out there, right?

13 I mean, I think these wattage estimates are

14 much better. We got detailed data from the

15 manufacturers on wattage of their products. So I

16 think this is better than it used to be.

17 In terms of better estimating operating

18 hours, we can take a look at that. One of the key

19 pieces we're missing is the percentage of pumps that

20 we think are in heating versus plumbing recirculation

21 applications.

22 I know from HI's estimate there's not much
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1 difference, but if we wanted to look at different

2 numbers, we would need to have some idea of that split

3 in the circulator sales, but I don't know if that's

4 something because we weren't -- because we couldn't --

5 MR. HANDZEL: Xylem didn't give that to you,

6 but I'll get that to you.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

8 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? So I mean we do have

9 that, and I can get that to you.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. That would be great.

11 So if we can get that number from some more

12 manufacturers, then we can do a little bit more

13 variations in the operating hours' estimates.

14 MR. STARR: Isn't the quarter -- this is

15 Louis -- isn't the quarter horsepower -- is that not

16 going to be a commercial application or are there --

17 MR. BARBOUR: Are you talking 1/25

18 horsepower?

19 MR. STARR: No, no. The one-fourth, three

20 horsepower.

21 MR. HANDZEL: He's saying the 90,000 units

22 in one-quarter to three horse.
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1 MR. STARR: Okay. So that class is

2 definitely commercial. So the one-quarter, the 1/25th

3 to one-quarter, is that -- is any section of that

4 commercial at all?

5 MR. HANDZEL: A very small portion of it

6 would be, you know, but again, Louis, the problem is,

7 you know, we sell those products all to the same

8 people. So we -- you know, we can give you estimates,

9 but all they are are our best estimates of where we

10 think they go.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Mark Handzel.

12 Al, do you want to weigh in here?

13 MR. HUBER: Yeah, Al Huber, Patterson.

14 With the data that I think has been

15 presented, it's -- you know, it appears to us that the

16 savings are not there. However, if Louis feels like

17 you need some more information, we certainly, you

18 know, are willing to listen to it, but at the same

19 time, this is a very different product, and we've

20 offered to negotiate that separately, and we think

21 that's probably what needs to happen here.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

2 I'd agree with Al that based on the analysis

3 that's presented so far the savings don't look very

4 impressive. However, we haven't looked at the cost.

5 So the question is what is the value of

6 savings relative to the cost, and I continue to

7 believe that the estimate of savings is going to be --

8 continued to be subject of debate here.

9 You know, we'll provide information that

10 will give a different perspective on that.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bob.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO.

13 I'm not sure what Gary means by cost because

14 I thought the differential was shown here on the 1/25.

15 It was the $112 differentiate.

16 Yeah, that's consumer cost.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. I may have to revise

18 my thinking here because Bob is correct. The cost is

19 shown, and it's very similar to what we found. I am

20 agreeing with you. The cost is shown and it's similar

21 to what we found.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 I look at numbers all the time, and

3 obviously like everyone said, depending on the

4 application, the payback is going to vary probably

5 anywhere from three to 12 years depending on the

6 application, the hours of use, and type of control

7 you're using.

8 The bigger issue is, as Lucas and Alison

9 were saying, is for this group should it be -- again,

10 it all gets back at a high level. Should this be part

11 of this negotiation and rulemaking, yes or no? That's

12 -- you know, we're going to get a range of answers.

13 Let's face it, and the answer is at some point we have

14 to say yes or no, and it's probably especially because

15 that way for a lot of people to know, et cetera, in

16 terms of time and resources to analyze the data,

17 that's what it boils down to. Should the circulators

18 be a part of it?

19 And I think we're getting good information.

20 Gary is going to present more information, but at some

21 point we're all going to have to decide if we can get

22 consensus as part of this rulemaking or as another
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1 possibility to say circulators as part two.

2 I'm just going to throw that out there at a

3 high level.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Should we consider taking a

5 vote today on this? Gary.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

7 In answer to that question, no, I don't

8 think we should because there's more information to be

9 found, but I think we're close to having all we can

10 learn and taking a vote.

11 The other thing is with regard to the cost,

12 what we're showing here is what appears to be the

13 current retail cost difference, price difference, not

14 what the ultimate price difference would be, seeing

15 the benefits of economies of scale in production.

16 So my off-the-cuff guess is the PM ECM motor

17 probably isn't any more than $20 more expensive that

18 the induction motor it would replace, but looking at

19 the current retail cost difference, the PM products

20 are produced in relatively small quantities and sold

21 at a premium because they offer benefits to the

22 customer.
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1 The induction motor products are commodity

2 products sold in large quantities with relatively

3 lower margins. So we're going to see this incremental

4 cost reduce between now and when any rule might become

5 effective.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, I would note that when

7 you -- pardon me -- Gary, I would note that when you

8 made your estimate, several other members in the room

9 kind of rolled their eyes and --

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, let me give an

11 example.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: -- didn't think you landed on

13 the mark there.

14 (Laughter.)

15 MR. FERNSTROM: I'm sure they did. My

16 freezer unfortunately failed about a year ago, and

17 three or four weeks ago I fixed it. It turned out the

18 evaporator fan motor had frozen, not literally, but it

19 stopped turning, and all I had to do was touch it, and

20 it started turning again and it has been working fine

21 ever since.

22 But the evaporator fan motor in the back of
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1 my refrigerator is a small split-phase motor similar

2 to what used to be used in phonograph turntables, and

3 after we quit using phonographs, there were a surplus

4 of these motors. They found their way into

5 refrigerators.

6 I priced the replacement product. It was

7 $35, but I could go down to Radio Shack and buy a PM

8 computer fan motor for $12 that would perform a lot

9 better and serve the same utility in my freezer.

10 I realize we're not talking about freezers

11 here. We're talking about pumps, but I think the same

12 opportunities exist with regard to cost reduction as

13 these products become commoditized as contrast to

14 specialty items.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

16 MR. LIN: Let me just comment because, you

17 know, from a general ECM standpoint I think we've

18 looked at those before, and I think from a cost

19 standpoint I would say that that would be probably

20 greater than $20 difference between that, but you

21 know, I know the Navigant guys have experience tearing

22 down our ECM controls, and you know, they compare the
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1 difference between the ECM circulator design versus

2 the designs that they've torn down relative to the

3 HVAC side that they can come up with a rough

4 estimate.

5 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.

6 But, yes, Paul. Correct me if I'm wrong

7 though. The products that you make and sell into the

8 circulator market would generally be considered to be

9 greater than 1/25 and 1/16 horsepower; is that

10 correct?

11 MR. LIN: We would, but also we do make ECM

12 motors in the same wattage range for walk-in coolers

13 and freezers. So regardless of the application, it's

14 the output that really matters, and I know from our

15 cost basis there's a delta.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So those motors you make for

17 walk-in applications would be for fluid movement or

18 for air movement?

19 MR. LIN: For air movement.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So we're talking

21 about a different thing here. I'd just like to

22 establish that. You don't make motor products in the
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1 1/16 and 1/25 horsepower range that are utilized on

2 circulator pumps circulating fluids.

3 MR. LIN: Correct, and just saying in

4 general if you're a motor control, you don't care what

5 you're driving, right? You -- the only thing that you

6 care from a motor control standpoint is how much

7 output you're giving out.

8 So it's air agnostic to the load.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: I didn't say anything about

10 the control. I was simply speaking about the PM

11 motor. Do your motor products include a control that

12 would cost more than $20 or are you speaking simply of

13 the PM motor without any control?

14 MR. LIN: I'm speaking that if you're

15 looking at an induction motor versus an ECM in that

16 wattage range, we see a greater than $25 delta.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: And would that ECM motor

18 that you referred to include a control or not?

19 MR. LIN: Yes.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So I'm speaking about

21 one that would not include a control.

22 Thank you.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.

2 MR. STARR: So Louis with NEEA.

3 I think what would help is just maybe a

4 little more transparency, and this would be DOE

5 contractors doing some analysis of the numbers that

6 fill in those columns and then the final -- the

7 overall annual or I'm going to call it the savings

8 over 30 years, whatever that's called.

9 And I think what will help is that the other

10 pumps that you have, you're rolling out and you're

11 getting the information in March. You're going to

12 have basically all of these classes of pumps that are

13 in yellow, I believe.

14 You're basically going to have energy

15 savings associated with those guys, too, and that was

16 kind of an exercise we did our first time as we were

17 looking at the relative energy savings between classes

18 of pumps and figuring out where the opportunities are.

19 I guess there's two things. One, there's a

20 logistical problem that there's different test

21 procedures for these pumps than the other ones. So

22 it's easier to add on maybe a double suction pump than
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1 it is a circulator because you have a whole new test

2 procedure.

3 So I realize that difficulty, and the only

4 thing I would say is that ultimately it's the energy

5 savings I'm thinking about. That will also help to

6 figure out whether there even needs to be another

7 rulemaking or not, right?

8 If there's so little energy out there to be

9 saved, are you really going to dedicate a whole

10 rulemaking to one quad of energy as a separate

11 rulemaking?

12 Like any of these pumps, I don't know that

13 you would necessarily do that because there's such

14 small savings, and DOE, you only have so many

15 resources. Are they really going to spend the

16 resources chasing after such a small amount of energy?

17 So part of the thought is that it may not be

18 efficient for DOE to start another rulemaking. So

19 that's kind of some of the aspect of keeping it part

20 of this. Since it's a pump, it's more favorable to

21 have it in this rulemaking, but I realize there's some

22 logistical problems with it.
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1 But it's something for DOE -- maybe you can

2 talk about that a little bit, Lucas, as far as how you

3 might see that.

4 MR. ADIN: Well, so this is Lucas. I don't

5 want to say categorically that we would decline to do

6 a rulemaking purely on the basis of an initial

7 estimate about what the savings might be. I mean,

8 there are a lot of -- obviously, for one thing, there

9 are a lot of different ways of evaluating the

10 potential energy savings.

11 Gary brought up some points that are very

12 good that we need to evaluate. We need to look at,

13 you know, realistically what might the savings look

14 like, what might the economic aspects look like that

15 would rely on a lot more involved analysis that, as

16 Alison mentioned, we haven't done yet. That would

17 come farther out.

18 So, yeah, I mean, sitting right here, I have

19 no particular reason to say that DOE would not do

20 that. I think we've been pretty clear that it's

21 something that we're willing to consider. You know,

22 if the group says we're just not ready yet, and I
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1 think for DOE's purposes we have some practical

2 limitations that would prevent -- well, or at least

3 limit our ability to analyze these particular products

4 in a way that I think they properly should be analyzed

5 within the time frame that we've been talking about

6 for this rule.

7 So that's the practical side of it.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: And this is Gary.

10 I'd just like to say for the record for our

11 friends in industry I'm willing to accept the outcome

12 even if circulators don't make sense. I just want to

13 make sure that we give it the proper consideration

14 before we come to that conclusion.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: To follow up with Gary,

17 maybe for the next time, again, it could be either a

18 vote or a straw poll, you know, less official.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: As I said before, I'm not a

20 big fan of straw polls, but I'm thinking --

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: -- maybe we should take a
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1 straw poll at this one.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And I'll just throw out

3 three options: include circulator pumps; have

4 circulator pumps as a second stage of a -- of a --

5 second stage of a rulemaking after this one; or a

6 third one, just don't include circulator pumps. Those

7 could be three possible options to look at.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, I was thinking maybe we

9 should just maybe take a straw poll to see how many

10 people want to proceed to three options or even take -

11 - consider taking a vote today. Just get a -- you

12 know, just to get a sense of where people are in their

13 decision making process.

14 So I'd like to pose the question. If you

15 think it's worth further discussion and considering

16 taking a vote today on whether circulators should be

17 excluded, let's just get a sense. How many people

18 think it's worth pursing that today? Raise your

19 hands.

20 This is a straw poll. This is not a formal

21 vote. I'm taking the temperature of the members

22 present whether you think it's worth trying to have
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1 more discussion on this today and push it to an actual

2 vote to obtain -- to see whether we have a consensus

3 on this point or not and just see from the individuals

4 in the room, vote if you think this deserves more

5 discussion and we should push it toward a vote today.

6 So was that not clearer?

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, it's actually clear

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That was clear. This is just

9 a --

10 (Laughter.)

11 MR. BROOKMAN: This is a straw poll. All

12 those that think that we should consider pushing --

13 Doug?

14 MR. POTTS: Can I ask a question? So the

15 question is whether or not we should have more

16 discussion, correct? Or is there an Option B of

17 proceeding to a vote without more discussion?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: No. If we're proceeding to a

19 vote, then we need more discussion, I think.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But today.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah, because we have

22 another hour and a half almost, and there's not a heck
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1 of a lot on the agenda in additional, and we've heard

2 that there's not going to be a lot of additional data,

3 maybe some, and I was just curious about where the

4 members stand on this.

5 Lucas, go ahead.

6 MR. ADIN: Well, maybe this is more of a

7 question for some of the members who are still

8 considering the issue of circulators in particular.

9 Given that we expect we're going to have a little bit

10 more data and some analysis on those other pump

11 categories in yellow, does the outcome on those have

12 any bearing on what you're thinking about with respect

13 to the circulators in particular?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

15 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, looking at the Slide 16

16 of a prior presentation where you had sort of a back17 of-the-envelope estimate of what the potential usage

18 was but not necessarily savings, you know, there are

19 things in Lot 11 that are order of magnitude similar

20 to the circulators.

21 So the question is, you know, why take them

22 off if there's things in Lot 11 we're going to deal
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1 with that are comparable in size, and the things in

2 Lot 11 don't indicate potential improvement

3 necessarily. You know, all we know is what the load

4 is or an estimate of the load.

5 We have some option here where there's an

6 ECM possible substitute for a standard motor that

7 gives us a fairly sizable improvement, not just -- you

8 know, total load is one thing, but the ability to

9 improve. The pump efficiency can only go up a few

10 notches, and we're not going to even -- and the load

11 is small to begin with -- we're not going to get a lot

12 of terawatt hours' worth of savings.

13 This one has an opportunity for improvement,

14 a fairly substantial one, even though the total load

15 isn't all that big. It has a bigger potential for

16 savings relative to its total given the option there.

17 Now, that's because it's sold as an

18 integrated product. That to me is a reason to

19 consider, you know, the resource allocation of going

20 forward, whether it's now or we talk as a follow-on,

21 and I'm perfectly fine --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: -- fine having that rank

2 ordering so we have something in mind saying, "Well,

3 we're not going to touch things below this."

4 Well, I don't know that everything we're

5 looking at is below that already.

6 MR. HUBER: It could be. Al Huber,

7 Patterson.

8 I think from an industry standpoint, we

9 don't have any problem in delaying this discussion

10 until we have all the data on all the pumps we're

11 considering and then we can take them all up. But I

12 think what the DOE and the Navigant is trying to tell

13 us is they don't think they can get there with that

14 category because they can't get the analysis done for

15 circulators.

16 I mean, that's what I heard. Maybe I'm

17 wrong, but --

18 MR. ADIN: So, Al, I think --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

20 MR. ADIN: -- you're basically correct. I

21 mean, there's not a whole lot more we can do with what

22 we have right now. We can do some tweaking based on
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1 changes to the assumptions that are being used to

2 generate, you know, some of these basic life cycle

3 costs and payback period for circulators, but there's

4 not a whole lot more that we're going to get without

5 doing a much more involved analysis which, as Allison

6 stated, would be potentially quite a bit different for

7 circulators than it would be for other types of pumps.

8 So --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you able to say -- answer

10 the earlier question, the one that I reposed ten, 15

11 minutes ago?

12 If the consultant team of DOE were to devote

13 its resources to doing that analysis in circulators,

14 would that detract from its ability to do the analysis

15 on the other classes of pumps that are here?

16 MR. ADIN: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. That was

18 clear. Thank you.

19 MR. ECKMAN: This is why I think -- Tom

20 Eckman -- why we were discussing the potential for an

21 adjunct to follow this to deal with that, because the

22 work load could be leveled out a little bit and still
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1 get to it, and so I think we still have that as an

2 option.

3 Whether we want to pursue it or not, I'm

4 willing to take a look at the data relative to the

5 other motors that are in Lot 11 or -- motors --

6 relative to the pumps that are in Lot 11 and see are

7 we dealing with the same magnitude of -- if it's worth

8 doing for some, it will be worth doing for that. If

9 it turns out it's not in the range of options here or

10 it does not turn out to be an economic choice, then

11 you know, we're spinning our wheels.

12 I think we're willing to take a look at the

13 data and make a decision. That's where we're at. Tom,

14 that was helpful.

15 And, Al, your comment was also helpful.

16 Bob Barbour.

17 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour with TACO.

18 I was just curious. How does the DOE take

19 into consideration the estimate as far as what it

20 would cost manufacturers to switch over? How does

21 that work into this whole scheme? It's such a large

22 number I know for our company.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison.

2 Dan can jump in if he needs to, but so

3 typically does only looks at increased cost based on

4 materials and labor and stuff. Our plan for this

5 rulemaking is to look at conversion costs of switching

6 over and to develop a method to disperse that cost

7 across product lines based on conversations with the

8 manufacturers and how we think, you know, that might

9 increase the manufacturer markup for different

10 products to recoup the costs that they have invested

11 in switching over and to basically account for that in

12 the MSP.

13 So you would --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob, go ahead.

15 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again.

16 Does that take into consideration or is

17 there any kind of mechanism in there where you

18 actually look at whether or not a company may be

19 forced to go overseas?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, hold on.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

22 So, yes, there's a whole manufacturing
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1 impact analysis section that will be performed. That

2 is in the whole bulk of the analysis, the rulemaking

3 analysis. It's not something we can do up front as

4 part of a back-of-the-envelope calculation.

5 But, yes, it's called the manufacturing

6 impact analysis. It's essentially a discounted cash

7 flow model of the industry as a whole looking to see

8 how manufacturers as a whole, how they are affected

9 and whether things are going -- will go downhill

10 quickly or not, and that will all come into play.

11 DOE uses that to help them make their

12 decisions on where they're going to set a standard.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Once you've determined the

14 scope clearly.

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes, yes, yes.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: And that's the reason that

18 all of this manufacturing cost information was

19 collected.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

21 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Having been here several

22 times before, I can tell you that the manufacturing
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1 impact analysis does weigh in DOE's decision making

2 process and, in fact, has reduced the standard level

3 that they would have otherwise gone to to mitigate

4 manufacturing impact.

5 So it's not there's not a precedent where

6 the impacts -- weighing the manufacturing impacts

7 didn't affect the outcome.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob.

9 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour again.

10 I was just curious because none of those

11 topics were brought up during the course of any of

12 these discussions.

13 MR. ECKMAN: And there's a whole model that

14 gets built around your -- your industry.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

16 MR. ADIN: Maybe to respond more generally,

17 we had gotten a comment from Charlie earlier today

18 which was kind of broadly about, you know, how the

19 practical implications of a rule would how, and you

20 know, assuming we select a certain metric and a test

21 procedure and set a standard, how that would work all

22 the way to implementation of the rule.
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1 So that's something we can talk about next

2 time, but the other part of this is what are the

3 practical aspects of setting a standard. Like what

4 does the process, recognizing that, you know, not

5 everyone here is entirely familiar with all the

6 analysis we do, and that's something we can also --

7 we're happy to cover next time up front so that, you

8 know, all of these questions that you're having --

9 actually what we might do is in the interim periods,

10 you have some time to read through -- I mean, we do

11 have literature that explains in pretty excruciating

12 detail --

13 (Laughter.)

14 MR. ADIN: -- exactly how we do this, and

15 you can see it, you know, actually carried out for

16 another product.

17 I can provide some --

18 MR. BARBOUR: That would be helpful.

19 MR. ADIN: Yeah, just refer you to some

20 particular literature that would explain how this

21 works so you can see these things in effect.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, but, Al, you're in the
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1 queue also.

2 MR. HUBER: I'll defer to Gary.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary.

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. This is Gary.

5 So, Bob, there's kind of like two hurdles.

6 The one we're at now, should we even consider this or

7 not, and if the answer to that turns out to be yes,

8 then there is the whole rest of the procedure where

9 all of these things are considered in detail,

10 including the manufacturer and industrial impact.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Al, please.

12 MR. HUBER: Will the DOE come back to this

13 group with the results of their analysis for us to

14 review and to ask questions about how you arrived at

15 it?

16 I know that we as an industry have given you

17 at least on the -- only on the Lot 11 now, we've given

18 you some what we think are cost impacts to the

19 retooling or whatever we have to redesign and

20 everything that we'd have to do.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

22 MR. HUBER: Now we've the ones in yellow
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1 which, by the way, if those come in the cost of

2 tooling those and the cost of designing those is much

3 higher than Lot 11 pump, and we've never been asked

4 about that. So we probably are going to have to go

5 back and take a look at that.

6 MR. ADIN: So the answer -- Lucas Adin,

7 Lucas Adin.

8 So actually it sounds like there's almost

9 another question imbedded within that one, but the

10 first question was will you get a chance to see the

11 results of these analyses, and the answer is yes. So

12 you'll see the results of everything that we do. I

13 mean, we'll perform essentially the full-up analysis

14 that we would do for a normal standards rule to be --

15 you know, we'll do it more quickly than we normally

16 would, but, yeah, you'll see the results of all of

17 those before we pick a standard and put it into a term

18 sheet as a proposal for the ASRAC. I mean, our

19 selections --

20 MR. HANDZEL: So that will still be done

21 while we're still meeting, and the intent will be --

22 MR. ADIN: Correct. Oh, yeah, and it needs
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1 to be because you're voting on the standard level on

2 the basis of the output of those analyses.

3 MR. HANDZEL: There's a whole bunch of more

4 analysis. You know, you gave us the guidelines at one

5 of the first meetings, Lucas, where you said you

6 wanted us to try to be done June-July because you said

7 you had five to six months' worth of work to do before

8 a NOPR could be issued.

9 So is that a different type of analysis?

10 MR. ADIN: Oh, well, that includes the time

11 that's required for us to -- so we put our proposal

12 into a term sheet and submit it to the ASRAC. The

13 ASRAC has to take it up and consider it. Then the

14 ASRAC has to submit it to DOE. Then it has to go

15 through our full internal process of translating that

16 into a notice.

17 So most of that is really just

18 administrative process. It's the ASRAC and --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And then there's DOE's,

20 right.

21 Greg.

22 MR. CASE: Well, I actually had a different
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1 topic. So, Steve, if you have something on this

2 topic.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, just real quick in

4 terms of process, again, it's also is this going to be

5 -- result in a NOPR or a recommendation for a direct

6 final rule? Because that will also change the

7 potential in terms of timing.

8 MR. ECKMAN: That depends on whether we get

9 to agreement or not. If we get to agreement, we'll

10 make a recommendation to ASRAC probably for a direct

11 final rule. If we don't it will be a NOPR and a

12 rulemaking.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I think that -- Betsy, go

14 ahead. Yeah, I think my recollection -- correct me.

15 MS. KOHL: So --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Don't correct me. You go

17 first.

18 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE, GC.

19 So we've done a negotiated rulemaking with

20 distribution transformers, and yes, we didn't reach

21 100 percent consensus on all issues, but it was turned

22 into a proposed rule.
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1 We have separate authority for direct final

2 rules when we get a consensus agreement, but that's a

3 different animal. The negotiated rulemaking will turn

4 into a proposal.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's my recollection.

6 MR. ECKMAN: -- comment on and it goes

7 through the whole thing.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: That if we achieve a

9 consensus and if ASRAC accepts this term sheet, then

10 the Secretary is obligated, as his notice of proposed

11 rulemaking, to take the content to the extent possible

12 and translate that into his NOPR document.

13 MR. ADIN: Right. So thank you for that

14 clarification, Doug.

15 The proposed rule would reflect what was

16 proposed by this working group.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

18 MR. ADIN: Now, the proposed rule, of

19 course, is open to public comment, and depending on

20 the comments that we receive from the public, you

21 know, many of whom obviously have nothing to do with

22 this working group, they might have other data, other
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1 comments, you know, other things that we didn't

2 consider. Things in the final rule could be

3 different, but that's -- you know, that's just another

4 stage that we don't have --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: But just to be clear because

6 Charlie made this comment to the two of us as we were

7 heading to lunch. I think that we could do a kind of

8 a -- a description of as a typical flow or pattern it

9 would be do this and then this and then this analysis

10 and then consultation and discussion, you know, and

11 kind of sort of a typical sequence that we wouldn't be

12 bound to, but would be so you would know the major

13 points where analysis was going to be discussed and

14 stuff like that.

15 Yes, Al.

16 MR. HUBER: The reason that's important to

17 us is that some of the analysis that we've seen so far

18 and some of the things that we've seen so far, we are

19 not in agreement with, and so we don't want -- I mean,

20 we were really concern that we were going to vote for,

21 you know, something to be included, and they go off

22 and do the analysis and it's over and we've got no
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1 more say and we can't question anything. That's what

2 we were concerned about.

3 Now we understand it, and so I think those

4 concerns are somewhat allayed at this point.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MR. ADIN: And one other possible outcome

7 that should be mentioned is even for these other pump

8 categories that we include, the possibility still

9 exists that we'll do the analysis and the standard

10 just won't be economically feasible.

11 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

12 MR. ADIN: I mean, that's possible. It

13 doesn't mean that we're starting on a course that we

14 can't turn back.

15 MR. HUBER: Turn back away from, yeah.

16 MR. ADIN: That we can't stop the train. You

17 know, it's like that could be an outcome.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, do you still want in

19 the queue?

20 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

21 A little bit different topic. Going back a

22 little bit, do we need to make a recommendation to
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1 ASRAC for their next meeting about going forward with

2 this second rulemaking? Do we need to get that done

3 here today, or are they going to meet before we meet

4 again?

5 MR. BROOKMAN: We're not sure. You're not

6 sure about the date, Tom?

7 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah. Jeremiah was actually

8 trying to arrange it, do a little poll to figure out

9 which date it was going to be. So I don't --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Either mid-March or mid11 April.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. CASE: So do we need to take care of

14 that just in case?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't see how that would --

16 maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how

17 that's going to bind us up, some kind of notice at

18 this point for the next meeting.

19 MR. ECKMAN: No. Tom Eckman.

20 I think I'm sure ASRAC will meet again. If

21 we decided it sometime in April-May time frame that we

22 needed a follow-on for maybe circulators, maybe
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1 something else -- who knows what comes up? -- or

2 extended time just to get the -- you know, we're one

3 month away but we need another month, I'm sure taking

4 a proposal to ASRAC and say we need more time to do

5 that would be something we could do, and whether they

6 had to convene it in person or over the phone, it

7 could be done either way.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

9 MR. ECKMAN: So it's not a logistical issue.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Greg, keep going.

11 MR. CASE: Second new topic. Greg Case.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I go back to -- are you

13 going like way off topic?

14 MR. CASE: No.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Because I wanted to respond

16 to some of the analysis questions.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait just for a second then.

18 But before we move on, did you -- okay. So you

19 respond to the analysis question, Alison.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I just wanted to follow

21 up on the questions about what kind of analyses we'll

22 show you and that kind of thing. So in prior
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1 negotiated rulemakings almost all of the time is spent

2 on, you know, the consultants showing the analyses,

3 the assumptions, like going through in excruciating

4 detail how they're done, the results, and analyzing

5 the results to determine how to set a standard level.

6 And so we do plan to go through a similar

7 process here. The problem is just that we -- in order

8 to do those analyses, we have to basically know what

9 the scope and the metric is, and so the longer -- I'm

10 not trying to like push you guys to do anything, but

11 you know, hopefully if we decide on scope and metric

12 at the next meeting, hopefully in April we could start

13 sharing results and going through the analyses and

14 talking about them and making, you know, changes

15 together into the scenarios or the assumptions and

16 that kind of thing.

17 And then, you know, we would basically have

18 April, May and June to do those conversations and look

19 at the analyses; that's a pretty compressed scale for

20 us.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So I would just add to what

22 Alison just said. You may recall Dan Cohen saying in
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1 our very first meeting that this format lends itself

2 toward taking that analysis and having the back-and3 forth between folks like yourselves who are deeply

4 familiar with this content. So there's the real

5 opportunity for that kind of real time revision,

6 scrutiny that's going to yield a better product.

7 Now Greg or Mark, either one

8 MR. HANDZEL: I'll see what Greg comes down

9 to.

10 MR. CASE: Going back to the analysis, since

11 we are planning on providing new data to you and we

12 are planning to provide that through our NEMA BIS

13 third party, we need to know how you want that

14 analysis done.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, I wanted to talk to you

16 about that.

17 MR. CASE: So in the next couple days we

18 need to know what formula we're going to use to cover

19 that data.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

21 Mark.

22 MR. HANDZEL: This is Mark.
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1 And following along that same line, I know

2 you've been crediting Al with survey, but you should

3 know that I took most of your survey and really

4 created the survey. So --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mark.

6 MR. HANDZEL: -- it's really in a format

7 similar to yours, but obviously we've been able to get

8 more people to agree to participate because they've

9 asserted confidentiality with our third party.

10 So we want to give it to you in a format

11 that you will get the most use out of. So that's why

12 we need to talk quite a bit --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

14 MR. HANDZEL: -- and obviously we know you're

15 going to want the data as soon as possible so you have

16 time before the next meeting. We're going to be

17 crunched with some time things. So we just need to do

18 a little preparation.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: And I think we can do some

20 prioritization because to do the energy savings

21 estimates for the next meeting we might need less

22 detail than we might need for some of our other
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1 analyses. So we -- you know, let's definitely have a

2 conversation this week because if we don't get -- I

3 mean, ideally we would get all the data just masked as

4 to manufacturer and brand because we do need pretty

5 complicated analyses done. So we'll just have to have

6 some chats about that.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah, and this is Mark Handzel

8 again.

9 I don't know if we've got the authority to

10 do that. You know, we promised aggregated data would

11 be shared. So that's the thing we're going to have to

12 go back and forth on a little bit.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, okay.

14 MR. HANDZEL: But, you know, obviously, we

15 want to make sure that the next meeting we have data

16 that we aren't sitting here trying to figure out what

17 to talk about.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right, yes. It would be

19 great to accomplish something next meeting.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman.

22 MR. ECKMAN: Sooner or later the light will
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1 stay on.

2 -- have agreement on a metric and probably

3 not on scope yet, but certainly on the question of

4 metric so you could estimate what savings might be in

5 it.

6 I thought we left this morning feeling

7 pretty well with consensus on the metric and that

8 there would be some decision made largely by you guys

9 about whether there was a -- what kind of denominator

10 would be most useful because that's not our drill.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And just to follow up

12 on this, we were having a short conversation about the

13 denominator, and I'm not sure, although it's important

14 for what we want to do and present to the public, I

15 think we can do some preliminary energy savings

16 analysis without the denominator and it won't really

17 change the results at all that we would get with a

18 denominator because it's just a scaling factor.

19 So if we get the data, what we're hoping to

20 do for next meeting is not just an energy use

21 estimate, but also look at a few different levels of

22 MEI and the equivalent PER and see what kind of energy
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1 savings you could get at those various levels. So

2 that's our goal if we have time to do that analysis.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Which does not diminish Tom's

4 comment, that is, if the manufacturers collectively

5 said, "This is what we'd really like to see used,"

6 then that would be very, very helpful.

7 Al.

8 MR. HUBER: I want to make something clear

9 here. I want to make sure that there's no

10 misunderstanding. The only thing that we're

11 authorized to give you is aggregated data, period.

12 We're not authorized to give you anything else.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yeah, we just weren't

14 sure if it was going to be like the MEI data that we

15 got before, which was aggregated, but blinded. So

16 we'll have -- we can have a separate conversation.

17 MR. HUBER: What we really need you to do, I

18 think, Alison, is to put it down in writing exactly

19 what you want or you desire is, okay, and how you want

20 to see it and send it to us right away, and we'll get

21 that to NEMA BIS because we have given them -- I was

22 wrong yesterday -- we have given them a deadline of
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1 March the 12th --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

3 MR. HUBER: -- to have all of the data in.

4 They take three to five days to process it. Okay?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

6 MR. HUBER: We don't have a lot of time. So

7 we want to go ahead and give that to them so they have

8 a little bit of time ahead of that to prepare, get

9 ready to parse the data the way you want it.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

11 MR. HUBER: The way you can use it.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Actually I'm worried it will

13 take longer than three to five days to process because

14 of what we're going to ask for. So we will get

15 together and I'm just -- just straight up, just to

16 tell you like we had been planning in our analysis to

17 use the database of pumps actually, and so if we're

18 not getting that, I need to just go back to my team

19 and think about how we can request distributions of

20 those parameters.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: But also though you indicated

22 that there would be priorities here. That is, you
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1 know, you could imagine that they would do certain

2 kinds of analysis first and that might be made

3 available, right?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean, we're going to

5 have to go back and think about -- we almost don't

6 need to have this conversation now.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Because we need to think

9 about things. You know, we need shipments by

10 efficiency. We need performance data distributions.

11 We need MSPs by shipment. So there's just a lot of

12 things that --

13 MR. HUBER: Shipments by efficiency?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So these are a lot of

15 details.

16 MR. HUBER: That's not going to happen,

17 Alison.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: It's in the data. So we

19 should have a conversation because if some of these

20 things can't happen, then this is not useful to us. So

21 --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: It seems like I liked Al's
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1 suggestion that you write down --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: -- precisely what you would

4 like to obtain, and then you start that conversation

5 back and forth and quickly.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, and we'll try to write

7 down like why we need it so it makes a little more

8 sense that me just saying --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be great.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- shipments by efficiency.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I thought that was

12 productive, that last round there.

13 Now, it's two o'clock. I think we've

14 covered a great deal of what we intended to cover

15 today. Are there other things on your list? Because

16 I have an issue or two.

17 MR. ADIN: I don't know that I have anything

18 else specific. I mean maybe I should just ask

19 generally for the group to let me know -- well, maybe

20 we need to --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, they're doing a brief -

22 -
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1 MR. CASE: Sorry.

2 MR. ADIN: Oh, that's all right. That's

3 okay. I mean, I've heard throughout the meeting today

4 and yesterday various things that might be helpful for

5 next time for DOE to do, and I don't know if I

6 captured them all.

7 I mean, we have some things that we're going

8 to look at, maybe some potential refinements to the

9 basic energy use numbers for circulators, and we're

10 going to try and think a little more about the

11 definition. This is the clean water categorization

12 for pumps.

13 MR. CASE: If I could just comment, so,

14 Lucas, that's another one that is kind of important

15 for us because, based on what you kind of decide on

16 that is going to direct what we need to start to

17 communicate to our membership.

18 So you know, we'd like to do that before the

19 next meeting so we're prepared to say it's okay or

20 it's not okay.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So we were clear, in

22 the summary statement that everybody intends, right,
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1 to carry forward the concept of clean water.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Right, right.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So I think that you're on

4 solid ground with that.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then the question is how

7 DOE and General Counsel and the like are going to

8 translate that. So I need the enforcement business

9 will be practical and will be workable, right?

10 MR. ADIN: To clarify, I mean, when I say

11 we're going to do it before the next meeting, we're

12 going to do it as soon as possible before the next

13 meeting and provide some feedback to the group so that

14 you all have time to think about it.

15 For this one in particular, I think what

16 probably would be most beneficial is for us to think

17 about some options. It's not that we're just going to

18 pick one and say this is what we think it should be.

19 It will be, you know, here's some different ways that

20 we can do this, and I mean, to the extent we have one

21 in particular that we think would work best based upon

22 the considerations that we have, we'll point it out,
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1 but you know, it obviously depends in large part on

2 the input from your side.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, and then so I'll just

4 continue with my list here. So following Tom Eckman's

5 last statement, I did think we made significant

6 progress on the metric today. I really do, and so,

7 Alison, I believe you said that next time around you

8 can -- for our next meeting that -- that -- or maybe

9 it was Sarah that said this -- that you can do another

10 layer deeper, right?

11 MS. WIDDER: Un-huh.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Or do maybe a couple of

13 examples or --

14 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- application sort of a

16 thing so that it's clearer how that gets all applied.

17 I think we don't need a proposal to ASRAC.

18 Go ahead, Lucas.

19 MR. ADIN: There is one other broader topic

20 that we really haven't addressed directly over the

21 last couple of days, but that's the test procedure,

22 and we've been talking about metric which obviously
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1 involves the test procedure as far as how you're

2 actually going to get some of these numbers.

3 But as I've alluded to previously, DOE will

4 prior to the establishment of a standard have to

5 establish a test procedure for these products.

6 So we might do a little bit more discussion

7 about that at the next meetings, with the

8 understanding that -- go ahead, Greg.

9 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.

10 We have the chairman of that committee

11 prepared to speak at the next meeting on our 40.6

12 standard. So he needed a little more time to finish

13 it up, but he plans on it. I don't know if it's via

14 the Web or personally, but he will be speaking to that

15 or our efforts on that.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Is 40.6 -- has it now been

17 validated? Is it on its way or --

18 MR. CASE: It has been validated. They

19 needed to clean up comments from members, and I

20 believe they have completed that or are close to

21 completing that.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. ADIN: Great. That's good news, and we

2 really will appreciate that, that kind of input.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So the test procedure stuff

4 that you might take up next time would be to provide

5 kind of a general format framework kind of?

6 MR. ADIN: I think it's more -- well, you

7 know, we might have to have more involved discussion

8 depending on the questions that we get, but I think at

9 the very least I wanted to provide a sense to the

10 group as to the process, so, you know, to set

11 expectations as far as how this is actually going to

12 work.

13 You know, whenever HI finishes 40.6, you

14 know, we can take that into consideration and roll

15 that into a -- so at some point DOE will have to

16 publish a NOPR for a test procedure, and so, you know,

17 we'll have to consider 40.6 for part of that, and then

18 these other elements of the metric that we're

19 considering. So that's the motor part of it, the

20 drive. All those things will have to be part of the

21 test procedure as far as how you come up with a number

22 for a given -- for a given pump.
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1 And so that'll have to be translated into a

2 notice, and I just wanted to make sure everyone

3 understand what actually has to --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: And on to it for the scope

5 that you establish for this negotiation, the

6 Department of Energy anticipates that the test

7 procedure would be concluded for the scope of this

8 negotiation during the term of this negotiation

9 essentially, right?

10 MR. ADIN: Right.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Mark.

12 MR. HANDZEL: I just want to, I guess, just

13 clarify. So when we come in next time to do that

14 presentation on the test procedure, what specifically

15 are you looking for? Because we could spend hours

16 going through that specification, and I don't think

17 that would be everyone's best use of time.

18 So, you know, what is it that we want to

19 focus on? Just an introduction for this group as to

20 what our test procedure is for testing a pump, the

21 bare pump, which is really what that procedure focuses

22 on?
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1 MR. ADIN: Well, I mean, I think that was

2 generally what we had in mind.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

4 MR. ADIN: I tend to agree that it wouldn't

5 be necessarily beneficial to get into all of the

6 nitty-gritty details of, you know, what's different in

7 this one from 14.6 or all of these other little -- you

8 know, that's probably not germane to this discussion,

9 and you know, maybe there are other members of the

10 group that have specific things they'd like to hear

11 about, but that's sort of generally what I have in

12 mind. So we have a sense of what's actually involved

13 in testing a pump.

14 MR. HUBER: You know, I think it would be

15 beneficial for the rest of these that the folks here

16 to understand that we've been working with Navigant on

17 this new procedure -- I mean Pacific Northwest. So

18 we've tried to get it to where it would be one that

19 you could use for regulations.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. HUBER: So hopefully a lot of your job

22 will be completed, we hope.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

2 MR. HUBER: We hope.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Other issues that

4 individuals want to raise? I've got a few others on

5 my list, just kind of "to do" sorts of things.

6 Chuck and others requested that these slides

7 that we used that have been edited real time as we've

8 been going along, aside from a sort of quick review to

9 check for grammatical stuff and other kind of editing

10 things, but those get sent out soon in the next few

11 days?

12 I'm looking at Sarah and Alison.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That's okay with DOE? Yes. I

15 just wanted to make sure.

16 And then --

17 MR. BARBOUR: Doug.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

19 MR. BARBOUR: Is Tom going to cast a vote on

20 all of the issues that we voted on yesterday?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I raised that issue with

22 Tom, and sine he wasn't here for the discussion and
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1 since had hadn't offered a proxy to anybody aside from

2 that first vote on the definition, and of course, Meg

3 did register a yes vote on the definition so we noted

4 that. I registered him as being an abstention. If he

5 wants to go -- we still had plenty of votes to pass

6 all of those and obtain a consensus.

7 If he wishes to either consult with his

8 colleagues or read the transcript or somehow get

9 familiar with what was done there and wishes to

10 register a yes vote or a no vote, we would certainly

11 be open and welcome to hear that.

12 I see Louis wants to go first.

13 MR. STARR: You know, technically speaking,

14 if he wasn't here he doesn't vote. He's not really an

15 abstention. You can't abstain if you're not there.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, that's a good point,

17 yeah. But I figured that --

18 (Laughter.)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I figure though he might --

20 it was kind of a place holder.

21 MR. STARR: I just meant to think of how it

22 looks to the committee.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

2 MR. STARR: If it looks like someone

3 abstained for some reason but in reality they just

4 weren't here.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Good point. So I don't know,

6 Tom, whether you wish to do anything about that or

7 whether you're content with --

8 MR. ECKMAN: Well, he did make the proxy on

9 the first vote. So that's fine, and I think the

10 parameters as they pertain to the Lot 11 group were

11 perfectly fine with me. So I'm supportive of that as

12 well. I don't think we've had -- and I told Meg that

13 as well. So I'm good with them.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So should we change the

16 abstention notation to something else?

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, we should.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Like just absent or --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, just the number of yes

20 votes.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

22 MR. ADIN: Unless someone else had something
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1 at the moment, there is on a different topic an

2 administrative item that came up. I did get a

3 question about whether non-working group members could

4 get access to the SharePoint site, and what I've heard

5 from our side, our site managers, is that previous

6 working groups have voted on whether to give non7 working group members access to the SharePoint, and

8 they did it for basically just read only access, like

9 they wouldn't change anything or add documents, but

10 they could see what's on there and access it and all

11 that.

12 So I don't really have a personal preference

13 as to whether we do it that way, but it seems

14 reasonable to --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe you and I just had this

16 conversation, but it seems like we talked about this

17 as a ground rule for discussion, but maybe we didn't.

18 Gary, you want to start on this?

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, this is Gary for the

20 California IOUs.

21 I think it would be very helpful if the

22 consultant team that supports me could have at least
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1 read only access, and the work that we do that we're

2 going to be sharing with Alison and the rest of you

3 will need to be posted, and it would be so much easier

4 for me if they could just post it to the Website

5 instead of having to ask me to do it.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Although I understand

7 through -- somebody told me that it's not so easy

8 getting in and out of SharePoint, but maybe that's

9 another matter.

10 So other thoughts on this? I guess the

11 proposal on the table is that the SharePoint Web

12 access be provided to members and on a read only basis

13 to non-members. Bob.

14 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour.

15 Does that include, you know, the alternate

16 members, too? Would they be treated as a member or

17 would they be treated as a non-member?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Since the ground rules --

19 this is my take on it. Since the ground rules specify

20 that an alternate can serve in the member's absence

21 and vote --

22 MR. BARBOUR: Right.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- in the member's absence,

2 then I think that the alternate should have the same

3 access. So that's a good clarification.

4 Steve Rosenstock.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

6 I would support giving the access for read

7 only documents as you've said because these are open

8 meetings to the public, and you know, we are producing

9 documents. So you know, if they're on the phone right

10 now today, they're kind of limited if they aren't able

11 to review it. If they work with or work for a working

12 group member, then I think they should have access.

13 It's just being more open and transparent.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. I think it's a good way

15 to go. I'm thinking it's a good way to go. So I'm

16 casting my eyes around the room. We're going to do it

17 that way, yes?

18 No one objects. Okay.

19 MR. ADIN: All right. Good. So I'll notify

20 Jeremiah that we agree to provide read only access to

21 non-members and for anybody who has someone in their

22 team or a member that wants to access, just email
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1 Jeremiah and he'll get them access.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And also I would say that it

3 has been very helpful, Lucas, for you to send emails

4 with attachments and notifications, whether it's you

5 or Jeremiah or whomever. So that's very helpful, and

6 that's the reason I haven't been on SharePoint yet.

7 All of the information, most all of it has been coming

8 via other sources.

9 And so for that to continue, that would be

10 nice.

11 Bob.

12 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour again.

13 Would it be possible also for us to get the

14 slides a couple days in advance if they're going to be

15 going up on the screen? Like for myself here, it's

16 almost impossible to read some of the slides.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

18 MR. BARBOUR: So it would be nice if I had

19 the printed out slide to be able to actually follow

20 some of --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: This last time, they did go

22 out a couple of days in advance.
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1 MR. ADIN: Well, not all of them did.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

3 MR. ADIN: The ones that we started with

4 yesterday, the scope ones did. The other ones we had

5 actually provided, well, a little while ago, with the

6 exception of two slides in that group. We had

7 provided those.

8 MR. BARBOUR: What about the ones that

9 Alison went through today?

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, no.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: These, these metrics slides

12 with the -- yeah, Lucas is saying with the exception

13 of Slides 5 and 6 -- went out to the working group

14 between meetings, like pretty soon after the last

15 meeting, I think. Right? You guys saw that one,

16 yeah.

17 MR. ADIN: Right, but we did -- we did make

18 some changes. I mean, this is --

19 MR. BARBOUR: It would just be helpful.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

21 MR. ADIN: Oh, sure, absolutely. To the

22 extent we can do that, we will, yes.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay? So I'm about to

2 provide a brief summary and then we're going to head

3 towards closure. Yes.

4 MR. ECKMAN: Doug, next meeting dates to

5 remind us again, 26 and 27th, correct?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

7 And it March 26th and 27th, and to confirm

8 the decision we made last time, day one will start at

9 9:00 a.m. We'll have to confirm the room. Right now

10 I think we're in here.

11 MR. ADIN: So I had heard some comments in

12 favor of the room we had yesterday. I don't know how

13 everyone else in here feels about that. I never had a

14 meeting in there before, but in some respects --

15 MR. BARBOUR: It was fine.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you like it better than

17 this room?

18 (Simultaneous conversation.)

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary.

21 I think it depends upon where you were

22 sitting.
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1 (Laughter.)

2 MR. FERNSTROM: You know, some of the energy

3 efficiency crew were at the end of the table. It was

4 hard to hear and be heard and see, and this is a much

5 closer.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: I agree with that. I was

7 sitting at one end and when Joanna and others were

8 having a conversation directly across the table to

9 another person or head in the other direction, I was

10 really straining to hear.

11 Of course, I'm a little -- half diminished

12 anyway, but -- so in that respect this room is better,

13 but fortunately, when we are meeting we have multiple

14 options, and so I'd like to stick with this room, and

15 I think it's easier to do this setup on the Web access

16 and all that other stuff as well.

17 Jeremiah, I don't think you were in the

18 room. We'll talk with you about SharePoint access.

19 JEREMIAH: Yep, I heard.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, you did. Okay. Great.

21 So other comments along those lines? Lucas?

22 MR. ADIN: No.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I just want to

2 summarize that in the span of the last two days we've

3 really made a lot of progress, and following on from

4 the progress we've made in the previous two meetings.

5 Related to scope, we did succeed in talking

6 about federal preemption. We talked about the

7 feasibility and timeline if DOE do not follow up on

8 rulemaking, and we further clarified that today.

9 We didn't get all the way through defining

10 completely the scope of the negotiation in the pump

11 types, but we did clearly define the scope for

12 negotiation and coverage. Particularly, we had

13 considerable discussion on clean water definition, and

14 a decision making tree that's still being considered,

15 still to be decided; closed on exclusions and

16 parameters, and good discussion on those; and defined

17 covered product. We voted that in as well; consensus

18 on those items.

19 We had a lot of clarification, a lot of

20 discussion on the metric today. I thought we made

21 good progress on that as well.

22 We've received requests for additional
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1 analysis and data and looking ahead. We're looking

2 forward to HI and Al and Mark's efforts at gathering

3 that data and sending it forward for the next meeting.

4 And I think that generally, Alison and

5 others described kind of a general plan for the

6 analysis for the items in green and the items in

7 yellow, with the possible exception of circulators.

8 So I think that's pretty much where we are

9 at this moment, and I welcome any additional thoughts

10 on what I've missed.

11 (No response.)

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then for my part, I

13 think we're pretty much done, and before we go,

14 anybody that wishes to make closing comments, I

15 particularly appreciate the tenor of the conversation

16 in these last two days. I very much appreciate

17 everybody being so forthright, straightforward,

18 pleasant.

19 Really, we're forming as a group here and

20 being very, very productive, I think. So I look

21 forward to seeing that continue.

22 Closing remarks from anybody in the room?
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1 (No response.)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: No closing remarks? Then

3 thanks to all, and we'll see on March 26th a 9:00

4 a.m., I think in here until we get bumped by the

5 Secretary.

6 (Whereupon, at 1:22 p.m., the working

7 group meeting was concluded.)

8 * * * * *

9

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3 I, MARY JO MITCHELL, hereby certify that I am 

4 not the Court Reporter who reported the proceeding 

5 and that I have typed the transcript of the 

6 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

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3 I, LINDA D. METCALF, the Court Reporter before 

4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 

6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

11 interest in this proceeding. 

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247:3

annual 89:9

90:14,18

93:20,21 94:22

161:19 162:6

202:10 213:12

228:7

answer 34:10

104:22 158:5

159:6 166:1

181:8,18 222:13

223:7 237:9

243:7 244:6,11

answering 211:22

answers 222:12

anticipate 205:21

206:5

anticipates 266:6

anybody 56:18

128:22 172:3

269:1 273:21

279:14,22

anymore 171:10

anyone 9:2

anything 7:12

8:10,12 13:18

35:8 163:16

164:13 203:17

227:9 249:1

252:10 257:12

260:17 270:6

271:9

anyway 19:9 34:22

92:13 102:18

104:2,3 137:8

201:17 209:20

277:12

anyways 83:10

143:17

anywhere 146:1
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apart 196:2

apex 45:17

apparently 111:4

appeal 11:18

appears 220:15

223:12

appliance 5:12

52:13

applicability

24:16

applicable 195:4

application

27:3,10,14 31:21

46:1 49:5 59:20

97:11 134:3

138:21 153:20

155:13 156:4

165:14 167:16

172:17 178:21

192:3 194:5

196:14 217:9

219:16 222:4,6

226:13 263:15

applications 22:1

27:8 74:21

75:2,19 107:17

150:8 154:21

155:12,22

161:7,8

173:15,18 186:4

192:5 194:22

195:1,14,15,16

218:21 226:17

applied 34:22 35:1

43:19 76:18

77:19 79:15

82:19 128:19

129:2 159:10

160:21 163:12

183:19 263:16

apply 84:19

128:15 137:22

173:5 183:14,15

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84:3 85:12 173:2

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133:6 265:2

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80:9 83:7,16

84:8 101:2,18

104:1 117:2

139:17 149:15

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187:15 189:2

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156:21

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55:14 56:10,11

84:14 102:22

appropriately

117:14

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approximately

54:6 202:9

April 8:4,5,7 10:20

250:11

252:12,18

April-May 250:21

arbitrary 163:11

architecture 34:5

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aren't 17:1 31:3

120:11 159:15

173:12 180:16

184:6 255:16

273:10

arguing 163:15

177:10,11,13

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177:14

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94:8

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71:22 194:19,20

195:8,9

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268:8 269:1

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230:14 242:3

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9:7,16 10:19

11:11 12:4

208:14 244:18

245:12,13,14,18

246:10 247:9

250:1,20 251:4

263:17

assembly 171:10

asserted 254:9

associated 104:10

187:7,11 197:7

228:15

assume 44:21

79:13 98:10

125:19 126:7

141:15 142:1

146:12 173:4

178:11

assumed 104:8

140:20 141:3

193:11

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91:2 141:20

209:14 210:3

241:20

assumption

127:10 129:15

133:17 167:5

assumptions 193:5

211:3 212:18

237:1 252:3,15

attached 25:14

154:22

attachments 274:4

authority 94:11

247:1 255:9

authorized

257:11,12

automation

180:10

automotive 214:5

availability

194:4,13

available 10:9

83:4 107:2

138:20

143:13,14

144:17 150:5

153:17

154:12,16 164:7

183:5 205:21

215:22 217:11

259:3

average 41:17

61:21 62:3 117:7
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207:9

avoid 101:20

awake 53:13

aware 55:10

Awareness 5:13

away 16:5 80:16

176:6 249:15

251:3 257:20

axes 180:16

axial 146:3

axis 180:16,17

B

back-and 253:2

back-and-forth

57:9

backing 150:18,19

back-of-theenvelope 240:4

backup 104:3

bad 155:3

badges 110:21

200:18

balance 141:9

178:2

ballgame 51:19

178:6,7

Barbour 2:9 4:22

219:17 221:12

238:16,17

239:15 241:9

242:18

268:17,19

272:14,22

274:12,18

275:8,19 276:15

bare 29:7 34:17,20

35:11,22 36:11

42:5 43:14,19

44:3,8 47:6

48:12 54:11,13

58:5,7,8 61:7

64:21,22 65:1,22

76:12,13 77:4,22

78:7,9,15 82:6,7

84:10 87:2

98:2,14

108:9,13,14

110:12

129:18,20

154:20 171:10

185:20 186:1

187:3 188:7

266:21

base 167:4,9

171:21

based 10:7 31:11

49:15 52:16

56:3,5 57:4 65:2

77:8,19 84:1

90:19 101:10

106:7 114:9

121:18

126:10,11

127:8,11 138:18

140:19 141:17

181:1,12 187:21

191:3 193:19

213:15 221:2

236:22 239:3,7

261:15 262:21

baseline 60:6,11

61:11,16

104:8,16 127:10

193:11

basic 48:22 49:4

51:21 212:18

216:22 237:2

261:9

basically 18:18

24:6 26:9 28:21

36:3 46:8 61:21

72:1 88:22

116:9,12,17

117:16,18

119:11 123:11

126:12 128:2

129:18 152:12

198:6,14 206:2

228:12,14

236:20 239:11

252:8,17 271:8

basics 22:22

basis 34:15 126:13

192:4 226:15

230:6 245:2

272:12

bat 215:14

bear 30:14 89:16

167:1

bearing 234:12

bearings 121:21

become 224:4

225:13

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124:8

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begin 4:3 112:18

199:18 235:11

behave 144:11

believe 8:3 64:5,7

75:20 93:22

128:11 165:19

203:22 221:7

228:13 263:7

264:20

Beloit 4:18

beneficial 8:16

37:5 72:20

106:18 189:7,12

262:16 267:5,15

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61:1 66:8 67:4

83:15,16 84:8,18

97:1 106:10

107:9,10,19

157:3 173:20

196:22 197:6

199:4

benefits 38:20

44:8 66:19

223:15,21

BEP 36:6 40:21

43:7 45:17,21

48:5,8 49:1

50:13 52:5,6

60:8 62:16 63:4

68:5,6,19 70:1

77:9 83:19

86:5,6

116:7,13,18

117:5,9 118:18

145:2,11 154:15

159:22 160:3

162:3 166:5

168:1 180:20,21

181:1

BEPs 128:5

Berkeley 6:3

besides 143:8

best 14:11 15:15

23:1 47:8 50:3

96:10 155:13

220:9 262:21

266:17

Betsy 2:18 5:17

94:3 246:13,18

better 14:17 15:10

20:1 25:3

38:4,6,15,21

39:1 43:1 57:6

58:2,16 61:10
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75:7,9,10,12,20

78:19 84:15 85:4

109:4,8,9 122:7

131:20 138:11

148:2 152:14,20

153:10,12

156:16,22 157:3

171:2 193:12

208:14

218:14,16,17

225:9 253:6

276:16 277:12

beyond 47:8

171:22 200:12

bi 9:17

biasing 169:20

bigger 70:14 86:19

180:13 222:8

235:15

biggest 166:15

bin 138:5,6

bind 250:17

BIS 253:12 257:21

bit 24:9 31:16

33:10 36:20

40:12,14 49:11

58:11 63:9,11

79:20 80:6 82:11

86:19 92:19,21

94:9 135:15

138:15 187:17

192:6,17 202:17

203:20 212:10

217:21 218:2

219:12 230:2

234:9 237:6,22

249:21,22

254:12 255:12

258:8 264:6

blinded 257:15

block 35:18

blood 23:6

blowers 107:19

board 119:20

177:12

Bob 4:22

221:11,12,18

238:16,17

239:14,15

241:8,9 243:5

272:13,14

274:11,12

Boesenberg 3:3

6:5

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book 109:4,9,14

Boteler 3:2 6:4

101:22

102:3,11,15

103:9 139:6,7,13

143:21,22

144:14

Boteler's 104:22

bottom 37:8 68:3

72:14 86:22

135:16 136:7

bounce 93:11

bound 30:9 248:12

boundary 190:4

box 171:6

brake 178:21

brand 255:4

break 30:17

100:11 109:22

110:16,17

112:12,16 201:9

brief 6:20 8:9

32:21 110:22

260:21 276:2

briefly 115:6

bright 4:6

bring 32:13 43:6

50:13 162:21

163:7,16 177:19

bringing 164:4

203:6

broad 23:21

24:3,4,14

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166:22 187:10

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broadly 130:8

241:18

BROOKMAN 2:2

4:3 5:19 6:9,15

8:8 9:16,22 10:4

11:4,12,15

12:6,9,12,19

14:3 15:7,18,21

19:2,4,19

20:3,19 21:6,8

22:2,16,20 23:16

24:7 25:11

26:1,13,17 27:15

28:13,16 29:9,18

31:8,15 32:7

33:15 39:4 40:11

42:2,19 44:9

46:13,15

47:17,19

49:4,8,10 50:1

51:20 52:2,10

53:3,10,15

54:5,17,20

55:7,16,22

56:3,19

57:8,14,17 63:22

65:13 67:6,8

68:9,21 69:20

71:9 72:4

73:18,21

74:4,6,10,14,17

75:14,17,22

80:22

81:5,9,13,15,19,

21 86:15 88:1

90:22 93:1,14

94:7 96:5

97:8,18 99:19,22

100:4,9

101:6,12,21

102:2 104:19

105:19 106:20

108:1,20 110:15

111:1 112:15

113:10,20

114:3,6,11,14

119:14

120:10,14,18,21

121:4 123:5,12

124:9,12,15

125:8 126:15,21

127:13,15 128:9

129:7 130:17

131:18

132:14,17

133:10,13,21

134:14 135:12

136:3,12,15

138:3

139:4,12,14

140:16 141:12

142:16

143:4,16,18

144:21

146:7,10,13,17

147:3 149:4,6

151:1,6 152:2

153:13 154:17

155:7 156:9

158:1,10,14

159:2,11,18,20

160:14 161:13

164:2,9,20

165:1,3,7 166:13
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171:16

173:13,22

174:12,21

178:13,15,17

181:22 184:22

185:2 186:11

188:2,18 189:14

190:14 191:9,18

192:7,10,14

194:15 195:6,20

196:8 197:11,22

198:19 199:7

201:2,20 202:21

203:9 204:8

205:2,10,16,19

206:11,15

207:13,19

208:21 211:18

212:13,20

213:1,4

214:11,22

216:18 218:9

220:11,22

221:11,22 223:4

224:6,12 225:15

228:1

231:8,15,19,22

232:8

233:8,11,18,21

234:14 235:22

236:19 237:9,17

239:14

240:13,16,20

241:8,15 242:22

243:3,11,21

245:19

246:13,16

247:5,8,17 248:5

249:5,18

250:5,10,15

251:8,10,17

252:21 253:20

255:21 257:3

258:21 259:7,22

260:3,9,11,21

261:21 262:3,6

263:3,12,15

264:16,22 265:3

266:4,11 267:20

268:1,3,14,18,21

269:16,19

270:1,5,14,17,19

271:15 272:6,18

273:1,14

274:2,17,21

275:2,10

276:1,6,16,19

277:6,20 278:1

279:12 280:2

Brother 176:17

brought 97:20

135:10 144:1

156:13 175:8

230:11 241:11

brows 120:12

BTU 71:13 72:19

73:16

BTUs 74:19

building 4:10 46:7

179:18,20

180:10 189:21

194:22 200:19

217:11

built 175:12

241:14

bulk 240:2

bullet 116:17

147:7

bullets 135:17

bumped 280:4

bumping 150:4

bunch 17:15

190:18 217:17

245:3

burden 80:12

101:17,20

103:19 141:7

burdensome 79:19

80:9 85:16 92:16

97:12 126:16

128:14 183:14

business 20:18

262:8

businesses 194:18

button 114:20

buy 225:7

buyer 69:18

buying 69:11

88:15 178:5

C

calculate 106:17

115:9 116:18

118:6,20 120:8

calculated 118:8

119:3 121:12

141:22 144:4

calculating 90:14

94:21 121:15

122:14

calculation 85:9

103:2,4 104:1

106:12 126:16

134:21 203:5,6

240:4

calculations 84:5

141:17 142:6

167:1

calibrated 99:20

California

5:6,7,8,9 26:20

101:14 196:11

207:5 271:20

Callie 2:22 5:19,20

capable 215:22

216:16

capacity 63:15

211:21

Capital 1:18

Cappellino 2:5 5:1

28:17 88:4 93:2

185:3,7,12,15,18

186:1,20 187:14

188:1,16,20

captive 112:2

capture 34:12

35:11 44:8 46:2

69:16 76:14

135:18 143:8

captured 58:6

261:6

capturing 171:2

car 178:19,20

214:6

care 227:4,6

250:13

careful 20:16 48:4

50:20 51:2

171:13 177:9

cares 176:4

carried 242:15

carry 262:1

case 2:6 4:19

21:8,10 22:3

28:6 40:11,12,13

54:8,18 55:12

56:20 57:2

68:10,17 77:4

78:16 79:9 82:7

105:19,20

108:19 115:22

121:3 134:6,7
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166:15

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193:14 201:9,21

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245:22 249:20

250:13,14

251:11,14

253:10,17

261:1,13

264:9,18

cases 65:7 80:13

145:3 186:6

cash 240:6

cast 268:19

casting 273:16

Cat 133:3

catch 111:10 113:3

150:11

categorically

230:5

categories 22:9

234:11 249:8

categorization

261:11

categorize 21:4

category 13:3

18:16 188:10

236:14

caucus 7:16 10:8

22:17 32:14

112:10 133:22

202:22

caucused 12:22

cause 122:19

central 52:21

55:20

centralist 182:6

cents 202:9

certain 25:10 56:1

131:6,14 150:2

177:20 183:22

190:8 191:1,17

194:11

195:12,15 197:9

198:18 210:3

241:20 259:1

certainly 11:5 65:6

72:7 81:1 91:18

144:13 147:6

163:3,16 190:22

195:14 199:2

207:6 208:12

220:17 256:3

269:10

CERTIFICATE

281:1 282:1

certification

107:3,8

certified 98:10

99:15 102:13

certify 102:22

281:3 282:5

certifying 103:5

cetera 51:10

222:15

CFR 77:8

chairman 264:10

chance 7:11 57:11

164:21 244:10

change 13:16

25:21 26:4

48:15,18,19 65:2

82:13 119:12

124:21 144:12

163:8,9 170:8

181:3 202:16

209:21 246:6

256:17 270:15

271:9

changed 13:15

209:18

changes 48:17

177:16 186:22

217:14 237:1

252:14 275:18

changing 110:14

117:21 118:3

119:9 120:6

125:13 169:21

181:2

characteristics

70:2 81:6,8

100:13

characterize 85:7

Charles 2:3,5

108:9

Charlie 5:1 26:17

28:16,17 88:3,4

93:1 95:9 98:3

156:13 175:8

185:2,3 188:4,18

200:7 241:17

248:6

Charlie's 94:14

175:19

chart 118:17 122:3

charts 71:12

chasing 192:5

229:16

chats 255:6

check 113:18

165:18 268:9

chemical 22:12

26:12

choice 96:13 126:3

238:10

choices 187:13,21

choose 96:9,10

103:1 126:5

207:10

chose 46:11 162:2

172:7

chosen 207:11

Chuck 4:16 15:21

17:22 21:6 22:20

28:13 30:6 39:4

40:5 47:21 49:12

50:1 68:22 69:20

97:15 99:4

119:14 132:14

142:16 146:17

156:9 164:11

174:21,22 200:4

268:6

circles 192:16

circulate 214:1

circulating 192:17

227:2

circulation 205:14

circulator 179:6

202:2,5 207:11

210:17,19

213:15,16

214:4,7

215:3,10,15

216:6,11,15

219:3 226:1,8

227:2 229:1

232:3,4,6

circulators 10:14

11:19 12:2 74:19

171:19,22 204:6

206:4,7,16

208:1,4 209:11

210:21 211:4,8

212:3,10 215:14

222:17 223:1
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234:8,13,20

236:15

237:3,7,13

250:22 261:9

279:7

circumstances

43:3

claim 201:15

clarification 24:9

95:7 207:5 213:6

218:10 247:14

273:3 278:19

clarified 278:8

clarify 40:1 49:11

102:20 125:11

126:2 172:16

208:9 262:10

266:13

class 127:6 191:1

217:7,8 220:1

classes 151:16

188:5,17,21

190:8 194:9

209:6,9

228:12,17

237:15

classification

18:16

clean 7:1 12:20

13:5,11,14,19

15:2 16:8,16

18:7,15

20:11,12,13

21:15,16,18,20,2

2 23:7,22 24:21

25:4,14 26:6,9

27:1 31:4 32:9

62:11 261:11

262:1 264:19

278:13

clear 13:12 14:16

15:14 25:12 26:2

30:8,15,20 90:21

93:4 121:2

134:13 172:16

200:13 205:13

230:20 233:7,8

237:18 248:5

257:8 261:21

clearances 37:17

clearer 199:19

233:6 263:16

clearly 14:8 17:19

25:13 61:10 94:9

101:16 183:3

184:2 192:3

240:14 278:11

clerical 165:5

close 22:6 24:19

74:16 97:18

111:3 146:2

158:1 223:9

264:20

closed 179:6 180:9

278:15

closely 51:4 74:8

179:7

closer 67:8 135:4,6

177:17,19 277:5

closing 279:14,22

280:2

closure 276:3

code 189:21

Cohen 252:22

colleagues 269:8

collect 9:1 68:15

202:3

collected 174:5

240:19

collecting 132:6

collection 68:12

collectively 257:4

columns 228:6

combination 11:22

104:13 179:21

combinations

85:17

comes 95:22 132:7

188:5 198:13

251:1 253:8

comfortable 99:18

160:15

coming 30:18 42:3

46:15 76:3 88:18

98:17 206:6

208:1 210:11

274:7

comment 22:19

23:17 29:19

43:14 53:4

67:7,9 71:8

102:3 105:21

171:3 198:21

225:16 238:15

241:17 247:6,19

248:6 257:4

261:13

comments 37:2

39:3 54:14,20,21

60:20 71:1 87:7

139:15 164:10

165:7 200:10

202:21 247:20

248:1 264:19

276:11 277:21

279:14

commercial 1:7

4:7 27:11

94:1,12 95:8,11

217:9 219:16

220:2,4

committee 40:9

44:6 79:8 87:17

264:10 269:22

committee's

184:13

commoditized

225:13

commodity 224:1

common 150:21

communicate

69:6,14 88:13

91:10 92:8 96:19

97:2

156:11,13,22

176:12 261:17

communicated

25:20

communicating

124:1

communications

176:9

companies 16:3

136:10 175:4

company 1:18 5:9

69:11 75:4

176:1,5 238:22

239:18

comparable 37:12

59:9 62:8 235:1

compare 37:9 44:2

49:14 59:17

73:17 91:9

96:9,18 107:15

118:6 154:5

225:22

compared 49:18

compares 75:2

203:4
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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comparing 58:12

61:4 90:15 91:6

92:15 96:20

193:17

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165:20 167:4,10

compel 191:3

193:13

compelling 42:21

compels 193:15

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compiling 139:5

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252:19

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55:20

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254:9

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79:16 80:1

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Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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(866) 448 - DEPO

www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

consistently 79:15

consists 125:11

constant 7:9 42:17

150:8 160:8

162:3

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count 140:5
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

country 56:2

couple 33:8,12

58:11 60:15 79:6

82:16 84:5 88:5

100:19 108:22

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crosscomparisons

73:5

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current 11:1 132:7

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114:12 199:16

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263:21 268:11

274:14,22 278:2
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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279:16

deadline 257:22

deal 48:4 51:15

63:16 74:13

141:3 234:22

237:21 260:14

dealing 89:4 130:2

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232:13 238:13

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118:17

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37:3,19,20

38:21,22 40:18

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65:2,9

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75:8,11 169:12

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77:7 83:14 84:13

130:20 170:18

173:6 180:20

211:13 252:5
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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determined 30:9

130:5 134:13

170:16 240:13

determining 169:9

173:3

detract 237:14

detrimental 176:2

develop 239:6

developed 83:3

195:9 196:21

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development

187:2

devote 237:12

diaphragm 20:15

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diesel 131:9

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difference 119:7

142:3,8

147:10,13,15,18

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116:11,12,16,21

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179:22 181:21

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207:9 208:19

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211:2,3,11

212:11,16 215:2

219:1 220:19

221:10 226:21

228:20 230:9

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245:9,22 247:3

248:3 249:21

256:21 262:19

267:6 271:1

differential 152:9

154:2 202:8

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202:15

differentiate 80:7

109:5 128:15

140:3 151:14

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differentiated

183:4

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27:9 85:4 153:6

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differently 144:11

difficult 43:4 44:2

59:17 60:13

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difficulties 27:4

difficulty 43:18,22

61:12 137:13

183:16 229:3

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dilemma 7:5

dimensionless

58:15

dimensions 92:19

diminish 211:20

257:3

diminished 57:10

277:11

dinner 201:10

direct 246:5,10

247:1 261:16

direction 25:19

186:8 199:14

277:9 282:7

directly 179:18

263:20 277:8

disadvantaged

151:20

disadvantages

87:21

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264:6 265:7

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displacement

28:20 29:1,12

disqualify 49:1

50:14

distinction 25:2

distinguish 14:14
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148:16

distraction 17:21

distribution 44:13

46:9

160:18,19,22

165:9 168:11

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258:19 259:10

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132:10,13

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237:12 238:18

240:11 243:12

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261:5 262:7

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DOE's 14:5 17:5

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231:1 241:1

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216:21

dollars 131:8

175:14,16 216:8

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213:13,19,21

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done 7:18 19:5

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212:16 230:16

236:14 244:20

245:6 246:19

250:2 251:7

252:4 253:14

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door 98:15

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32:20 52:1 87:6

91:1 93:3

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158:18 159:2

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247:14 268:17

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DOUGLAS 2:10

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downhill 240:9

draw 139:18

140:14,22

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82:9,18,19 83:1

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159:9 169:13

171:6 174:16

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earlier 48:2 58:18

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Eckman 2:15 5:14

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10:1,19 11:5,13
Capital Reporting Company

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12:5,7,10 53:17

108:21,22

151:12,18

152:4,7,17,22

153:6,11

168:19,20

169:19 170:11

171:3,12

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234:14,15 236:1

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240:20,21

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225:17,22

226:1,11

227:15,17 235:6

ECMs 149:1

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168:21 170:9

191:5 194:2,6

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economically

249:10

economies 59:6

223:15

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268:7

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96:16

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52:12 53:7 59:8

60:1 62:5 64:1,8

66:15 71:10 73:2

78:22 87:12,15

93:16 95:5 108:2

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120:21 121:1

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elucidate 110:6
Capital Reporting Company

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Elucidations

202:21

email 164:17

273:22

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117:9,19

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85:17 89:4,15

106:3 107:4,17

194:8 195:12

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118:20 128:5

203:15 256:22

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160:11 165:12

166:3
Capital Reporting Company

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evaluate 48:14

51:4,13 100:22

116:11 230:12

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224:18,22

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224:18,22 225:8

231:20
Capital Reporting Company

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fans 107:19 196:1

farther 230:17

favor 15:9 276:12

favorable 229:20

favored 165:22

feasibility 11:6

278:7

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192:5,16

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first 12:14,15

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forth 108:5 144:6

206:6 253:3
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255:12 260:5

forthright 279:17

fortunately 277:13

forward 54:4

89:12 121:8

133:16 197:6

235:20 250:1

262:1 279:2,3,21

foundries 177:17

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52:16,18 53:1

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140:4 141:15,20

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148:8,16,17

154:1 160:5

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G

gain 12:17 70:13

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31:9 37:22

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206:20 207:1

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213:12

214:11,12

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221:1,13 222:20

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34:3,4 36:1

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190:5,6

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giving 140:6 227:7

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glad 6:15 8:2

201:7

goal 7:21 16:5

34:2,3 89:12

92:7 100:20

109:10 257:2
Capital Reporting Company

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goals 93:6,9 96:6

100:14

128:13,17

golf 38:6

gone 14:10 200:6

241:3

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government 176:4

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governors 99:1

GPM 71:12,13

grade 137:7

grammatical

268:9

gray 16:16

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38:14 54:3 56:15

74:13,19 176:10

219:10 255:19

260:9,14 265:1

277:20

greater 225:20

226:9 227:16

greatest 48:10

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56:19,20 63:21

68:9,10 88:3

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105:19,20 109:1

120:15 134:6,7

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203:2,3 245:21

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group 1:8 4:8,11

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265:10 266:19

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271:3,7 273:12

275:6,13 279:19

280:7

grouping 157:11

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99:14

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217:2 223:16

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H

half 25:19 48:11

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Handzel 2:7 4:20

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223:9 236:1

240:21 242:8

253:2 256:12

272:5 277:8

head 36:14 68:1,6

70:6 72:11 89:17

90:6 140:13
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150:2,17 179:2,3

180:6,16,20,21

181:1,2,7,19

182:14 184:4,11

276:2 277:9

headed 100:12

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218:20

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136:12,17

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274:3,5 275:19

helps 31:1

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hold 202:20

239:20

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holding 170:8

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134:4

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hooking 150:16

hope 7:7 10:7,11

31:5 113:16

135:5 197:5

206:2 211:12

267:22 268:2

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34:3 40:19 59:15

94:9 110:9 115:4

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133:1,2 219:22

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67:19 68:17

121:14 122:16

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189:3 195:13,17

196:1 197:4

202:6 204:15,20

217:4

219:15,18,20

226:9 227:1

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205:5

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213:13,19,21

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215:3,10 216:2

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73:12,13 202:8,9

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215:17,21

217:12 218:18

219:13 222:6

235:12 266:15

house 117:1 178:5

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178:16

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74:2,3,5,7,11,15,

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159:18,20,21

160:2,7

165:10,11

171:16,17

201:13 206:8,13

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236:6

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248:16

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199:15

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172:5 178:21

179:6 195:15

226:3

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63:3,7 68:4,5,7

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hypothesis 120:14

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114:22 184:5

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14:8,12,13,18

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33:20 37:21 39:6

42:3 43:21 44:19

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72:6 76:1,4,8

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91:18 95:7

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101:8 102:17,18

108:5 110:1,4

114:15,17,19,21

120:10,11

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131:18

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155:21 156:7

158:21 160:14

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175:11 176:8,9

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178:22 179:1

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44:7 56:8 72:12

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261:14

imported 198:8

imports 108:16
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impossible 274:16

impression 8:20

12:7 70:11

impressive 221:4

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153:3 155:5,6

170:22 177:13

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70:20 104:10

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147:10,11 202:4

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187:13

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171:5,8,12,14,18

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interpolation
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introduce 110:1

introduction

266:19

introductions 4:12

introductory

32:21

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5:7

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132:21 134:20

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it's 5:15 11:2 13:2

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86:8,16,20 88:9

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114:21 115:3

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124:21 126:7

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259:18 260:13

261:19,20

262:17 263:16

264:13 265:6

272:7

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Jack 201:3

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210:14 239:2

June 252:18

June-July 245:6
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

K

key 116:6 119:12

218:18

kicking 60:17

156:15

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111:14

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label 89:20 90:3

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90:13 93:17

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186:18 187:14

labels 93:20 94:2

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6:3

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language 14:9

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57:16 74:12

107:13 138:6

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last 11:19 12:22

31:12 33:7,18

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56:3,4 57:11,17

77:11 78:15 93:1

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133:15 143:16

150:1 161:17

162:3 183:22

201:2 222:13

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108:6 115:8,12

117:13 118:15

119:10,13 123:8

124:13,16 125:7

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188:14 190:11

191:4 211:11

222:10 223:3

241:2 245:1

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levels 69:7

116:11,16,22

117:17,18

118:4,19,21

119:5 122:2,3

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209:14 216:21

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light 36:10 141:16

255:22

lighting 189:18

likely 12:16

125:14,20

217:10

limit 131:13 173:4
Capital Reporting Company

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194:12 231:3

limitations 25:13

231:2

limited 28:2

131:15 184:6

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36:5,9,10,12,16

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52:16,18,20 53:1

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142:11 143:2,8

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150:20 151:22

152:8 163:11

167:14 168:22

170:4 180:22

203:16

loadings 79:1

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117:3 140:8,9

161:5 173:11

lobe 13:7 20:14

28:22

location 86:13

160:13

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logic 179:21

logical 44:1 62:15

logistical 228:20

229:22 251:9

long 13:19 14:1

34:12 46:19 88:2

112:3 165:21

170:6

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177:1 252:9

258:13

long-term 202:20

loop 179:6 180:9

loss 79:20 81:3,4

84:2 101:16

losses 79:12,13,21

87:10 141:19

142:1,2,8,19,21

144:12 147:7

149:18 151:9

157:17

lost 177:21

lot 6:18 10:9

13:3,4,21 17:2

19:5 20:2,18

25:21 27:4 38:17

39:19 48:20

50:15 52:17

57:3,9 68:19

74:11 75:19 76:4
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79:6 88:6 90:17

93:12 98:17

99:21 100:1

101:10 103:18

107:6,10 132:20

138:12 147:16

148:2,11

150:1,15 154:22

160:9 168:14

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237:4 238:5,6

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68:21 80:22 89:8

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124:15,17 137:1

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153:13 154:19

159:12 160:18

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173:22 174:1

191:9,10 195:20

204:8 208:21

216:18 219:15

220:6,16 228:1,2

269:12

low 128:3 153:18

155:13 189:3

lower 36:17,18

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79:2 119:4 122:6

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224:3

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14:3,4 17:4 24:7

27:20 31:8 32:18

33:17 40:2 49:10

52:2 54:7 55:7

81:22 89:11

90:22 94:3,7

101:21 102:19

123:12 127:4

134:14 140:16

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189:14 190:14

192:7 198:19

199:7 207:19

210:14 222:8

230:2,4 234:5

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244:6,7 245:5

261:14 263:18

274:3 275:12

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112:11,12

200:3,7,9,21

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M

magnet 147:11

151:15

magnitude 234:19

238:7

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177:18

management

179:18,20

managers 271:5

managing 176:18

mandated 195:4

manufacture

74:12

manufactured

65:3

manufacturer

10:8 42:12 78:11

95:16 103:11

106:2,16,19

107:13,20

189:5,11 239:9

243:10 255:4

manufacturers

11:9,18 88:8

97:12 107:7,8

126:17 133:22

134:4 137:17

144:7,14,15,18

145:5 154:12

171:17 177:5

192:3,9 194:6

199:9,20 202:3

205:4 206:1

210:15,16,19

214:4,5 218:15

219:12 238:20

239:8 240:8

257:4

manufacturer's

158:8

manufactures

193:16

manufacturing

139:1 202:22

213:8 239:22

240:5,18,22

241:4,6

March 1:11 4:9

8:4,7 10:6

228:11 258:1

276:7 280:3

margins 224:3

mark 2:7 4:20

25:15,16 54:7

154:8 158:1

181:22

191:18,19

194:15,16 199:9

220:11 224:13

253:7,21,22

254:5 255:7

266:11

market 20:17

43:17 61:21

62:3,7,9 66:7

97:21 98:1

108:12 117:7

127:9

131:5,7,9,10,12,

15 167:15,21

176:12 187:1

192:13 195:2

202:13,16 207:5

216:15,16 226:8

marketplace 47:14

88:20 108:15

122:19 194:13

markets 194:18

195:4

Mark's 279:2

markup 239:9

MARY 281:3,17

masked 255:3

match 55:6 173:10
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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179:5,7 182:15

material 33:2

204:5

materials 164:7

239:4

matter 11:20

132:1 135:7

146:19 162:15

168:9,12,22

169:4,14 170:4,5

171:6 174:18

272:9

matters 226:14

matures 202:17

Mauer 3:6 5:12

19:20 188:3,22

max 67:10,13

145:7 146:9

maximize 156:2

maximum

68:4,7,12,15,17

121:21

122:6,7,9,10

165:1

may 9:11 21:20

33:12 38:11 43:4

44:5 45:15 53:17

54:18 61:16

70:15 74:19

89:22 91:10 97:1

101:3,9,11

112:17 116:4

125:17 129:13

132:19 133:2

135:19,20 136:1

146:14

149:13,14 150:9

165:16 166:20

171:4 176:3

177:16 189:5

202:13 207:4

216:3,12 221:17

229:17 239:18

252:18,22

maybe 7:18 9:21

11:10 16:9 22:14

27:15 29:7 30:15

32:18 34:2,5

41:7 43:13 45:16

48:11 54:6,7

55:1 56:9 59:11

67:7,9 68:3

69:11,17 72:12

76:5,15 90:7

91:19 97:9

99:5,11 100:8

111:16 112:16

114:11 115:4

131:20,21

135:16,21

138:4,9,15

139:15

142:15,18

149:5,7 154:6

156:16,17

157:15,17,20,22

162:7 164:3,20

167:21 168:17

176:4 188:5

193:22 196:11

197:12 200:8

206:18

217:10,20,21

228:3,22 230:1

231:17,22

232:8,9 234:3,6

236:16 241:16

250:16,22

260:18,19 261:8

263:8,12 267:9

271:15,17 272:8

mean 9:2 13:6

17:7,10 18:13,18

20:7 23:3,8,11

24:3 25:9 26:2

28:21

29:10,13,22

31:10 37:12 38:8

45:2 46:6 50:19

51:6 52:3 59:14

66:21 68:14

69:6,16 70:18

85:22 86:4 90:17

92:6 93:10

96:7,13 97:4

98:4 100:22

101:4,8 102:20

104:2 122:22

124:21 126:5

127:5 130:7

132:6 134:19

137:4

140:9,17,18

141:4 147:20

154:13,16,21

162:15 163:1,12

165:20 166:17

168:3 169:17

172:21 173:7

178:12 183:2

186:14 188:5

190:17 191:20

192:15,22

195:11 196:5

198:21 202:19

206:21

210:13,15 211:6

212:2 217:2,3

218:11,13 219:8

230:7,18

236:16,21

242:10

244:13,18

248:19

249:12,13 255:3

259:4 260:18

261:3,7

262:10,20

267:1,17 275:18

means 95:14

114:6,11 150:18

171:2 200:5

221:13

meant 83:10

114:1,4,7 269:21

measurable

128:14

measure 75:20

76:16 100:21

193:3

measured 77:16

115:17

measurement

48:22 49:4,14

167:6

measuring 103:13

182:14

mechanism 239:17

meet 9:19 51:12

59:19 116:13,14

177:20 188:13

190:10 193:17

201:11 250:3,20

meeting 4:11 8:3

9:12,17 10:5,19

11:19 12:18,19

14:1 16:21

17:10,20 33:7,18

130:22 131:2

135:1 157:16

162:22 163:8,18

164:8

200:12,13,20

201:8,10,15

205:22

206:17,18 208:2

244:21 250:1,18

252:12 253:1

254:16,21

255:15,19

256:20 261:3,19
Capital Reporting Company

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262:11,13 263:8

264:11 275:15

276:4,14 277:13

279:3 280:7

meetings 9:20

131:19 201:6

213:2 245:5

264:7 273:8

275:14 278:4

meets 126:7

Meg 2:16 6:14,15

269:2 270:12

MEI 35:17 42:5

43:18 57:6

60:6,14 61:14

63:9 65:21

66:1,14 69:3,22

75:5 76:2

85:21,22

86:1,2,4,5 87:15

88:22 89:3 90:9

110:8 112:20

115:5,18

116:9,11,19,20

117:10,18,20,21

118:4,6,19,21

119:2,3 121:2

122:2,10 125:13

127:20 128:19

134:12 153:8,17

159:7,9 256:22

257:14

member 272:16

273:12,22

members 113:15

202:22 224:8

232:21 234:4,7

264:19 267:9

271:3,7

272:12,16

member's 272:20

273:1

membership 25:20

136:9 261:17

mention 28:3

167:13

mentioned 19:22

89:8 152:4 163:6

204:1 230:16

249:7

mentioning 99:11

message 156:11

Metcalf 1:18

282:3,18

method 85:9 103:2

107:15 149:11

193:3 197:17,19

239:6

methodology

173:21 197:15

methods 157:18

183:9

metric 7:8 32:17

33:6,11

34:2,4,11,15,19,

21,22 35:1,12,19

36:22 37:1,3,14

38:5 43:2,15

46:18 51:11

52:16 53:2,22

54:10,12

55:11,13,19

58:14 59:1,8

61:15 64:21,22

65:1 69:17

72:8,16,20

73:3,14 75:1

76:13 78:6 83:17

85:20 91:5

92:14,16

94:17,19 96:9

108:4,14 109:20

110:5,7 115:5

121:18 122:17

123:20 124:7

128:13,17

129:15,21

130:2,6,15 135:8

150:12 157:3

163:14 168:13

173:3 175:12

187:8 189:19

193:9 196:21

199:3,17 200:10

241:20 252:9,11

256:2,4,7

263:6,22 265:18

278:20

metrics 11:7 63:17

64:20 65:5 71:15

74:16 87:14,20

93:7 96:3

108:8,18 110:11

275:11

microphone 86:15

132:17 188:19

205:2

microphones 4:15

111:3

mid 250:10

middle 8:5 139:3

mid-March

250:10

migration 177:10

mill 51:18

millions 175:14,15

mind 36:15 41:6

56:7,9 72:16

88:18 89:2 98:3

125:2 163:4

171:8,19 208:9

209:22 236:2

267:2,12

minds 48:10

mine 31:5 65:16

minimal 100:7

minimally 61:7,13

62:3 77:12 79:19

92:16 116:2

126:6,16 128:14

minimizing 141:6

minimum 94:16

109:4 115:11

117:13 121:20

125:15 126:6,7

128:2,3,6 152:14

155:2 169:3

198:7

minor 70:16

minute 73:7,11,13

87:15,16 97:20

110:1

minutes 31:12

100:10 199:8

237:11

misheard 38:14

misjudge 150:16

mislead 157:11

miss 11:2 13:18

150:21

missed 279:10

missing 218:19

250:16

misspoke 38:11

mistake 38:12

misunderstanding

49:12 257:10

MITCHELL

281:3,17

mitigate 241:3

mode 176:6

207:15
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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model 240:7

241:13

models 210:22

211:2

modified 64:9

modify 66:21

modular 69:3

modulate 178:19

moment 111:6

204:16 271:1

279:9

money 101:10

216:8

month 251:3

monthly 9:18

months 213:16,21

245:7

morning 4:5,6

5:11 7:8 53:14

201:13 256:6

motion 215:6

motor 34:17,18

35:20 36:8,11,13

39:18 43:20 55:9

58:8 60:4,10

61:8 62:3,4

66:3,4,19 67:5

70:15,20 76:14

77:2,3,10,13,15

78:8,9,10,11,14

79:2,9,11,22

80:10,13,14,15,1

6,20 81:2

82:2,6,7,19

83:9,11,22 84:11

87:1,2,10 98:2,7

99:13,15 101:4

102:6

103:11,12,21

104:7,8,10 105:8

106:1

115:15,21,22

116:2,3

117:12,14,22

118:12,14

119:16 120:4

124:19

125:12,13

126:4,6,7,11,13

129:6

139:10,18,21

140:22

141:4,16,18,19,2

2 142:19,20,21

143:7,13 144:14

145:3,6,7,10,13

147:1,7,10,11,12

149:17,18

150:4,6,9,12,19,

20 151:8,15,22

152:15 153:19

154:3,6,22 155:6

156:19 157:9,17

159:9 171:6,21

174:16 176:15

177:4 179:17

182:7 185:21

186:2 188:7,8,12

189:5,11

193:10,16

195:12 196:20

205:6 223:16,18

224:1,18,22

225:1,8 226:22

227:4,6,11,13,15

,17 235:6 265:19

motor-drive

179:21

motors 43:20 47:7

52:14,17 53:1

63:2 66:9 79:16

80:2,8 95:13,22

98:20 99:16

106:15 107:19

127:1,7

129:14,16 130:2

131:21 133:18

142:9,10 144:10

146:20 147:9

148:5,10,14

168:13 170:3

174:7 177:1

188:15 196:3

202:5 213:9

225:4 226:12,16

238:5

mounted 22:12

171:21

move 32:16,22

38:19 58:20 76:1

79:22 82:2 89:12

133:16 147:3

151:1,3,10 186:7

251:18

moved 13:3

movement

226:17,18,19

moves 128:1

moving 23:6 36:12

160:16 199:14

MSP 239:12

MSPs 259:11

multi-metrics

109:13

multiple 108:8,18

110:11 135:18

143:13 155:22

156:3 161:7

277:13

multiply 83:12

84:13

municipal 74:21

172:4

muster 97:13

myriad 23:14

myself 274:15

N

nameplate

80:12,13,16

95:15,16 104:15

105:22 118:11

126:11 205:5

narrow 22:14

27:19

national 5:22 6:3

163:21 167:1,2,7

207:9 209:7,9,14

211:16

nationally 207:7

natural 131:9

nature 174:15

nauseam 190:18

Navigant 5:20 6:1

205:3 225:21

236:12 239:21

267:16

necessarily 31:3

45:21 62:5 63:10

74:20 91:10

130:12 157:2

187:18 193:1

197:16 202:19

229:13 234:18

235:3 267:5

NEEA 5:5 19:10

44:11 65:15

104:21 124:18

168:7 174:1

191:10 228:2

negative 59:21

62:8 85:2

negotiate 220:20

negotiated 1:8 4:8
Capital Reporting Company

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246:19 247:3

252:1

negotiation 166:21

199:10 206:19

222:11 266:5,8

278:10,12

negotiations 13:13

neither 282:8

NEMA 6:5 78:16

253:12 257:21

Netherland 199:11

neutral 41:18

news 265:1

NGOs 97:3

nice 4:5 63:8

135:22 150:11

153:16

274:10,18

niche 20:17 173:18

Nidec 6:4 102:1

139:7 143:22

night 12:22 201:11

nitty-gritty 10:18

267:6

nobody 165:22

nodding 120:15

nomenclature

21:13

nominal 60:4,5

77:7 99:18

119:19

non 271:6

none 241:10

non-electric 64:3,6

73:10 129:13

131:2

non-member

272:17

non-members

272:13 273:21

non-overloading

146:1

non-regulatory

198:12

non-water 22:8

non-working

271:3

noon 200:15,16

Nope 127:14

NOPR 245:8

246:5,11 247:12

265:16

nor 170:9 282:9

normal 44:14,22

45:16 46:8 137:7

160:19,22

168:11 244:14

normalize 37:6

67:11

normalized 46:5

normalizes 61:2

normalizing 62:17

normally 20:12,16

244:15

Northwest 5:14,21

267:17

notation 270:16

notch 127:16

notches 235:10

note 36:20 88:1

100:9 143:16

148:22 149:7

165:4 202:12

224:6,7

noted 269:3

notes 69:22 114:19

281:6

nothing 7:18 12:12

202:22 247:21

notice 245:16

247:10 250:17

266:2

noticing 120:11

notifications 274:4

notify 273:19

NPSH 48:20

nuanced 19:6

nuances 34:1

numerator 62:21

64:14 65:6,8

76:22 82:8 86:2

numerators 76:22

O

object 158:16

objectively 128:14

objects 273:18

obligated 247:10

observation

215:22

obtain 92:16 206:1

233:2 260:4

269:6

obtained 134:21

obtaining 141:7

obvious 58:21

obviously 31:19

50:9 80:9 95:20

102:21 134:10

191:4,6 194:18

222:3 230:8

247:21 254:7,14

255:14 263:1,22

occurred 171:3

o'clock 110:17

111:22 112:7

113:5 200:5,16

260:13

offer 223:21

offered 220:20

269:1

official 231:18

offshore 98:17

175:13

177:2,5,16,18,21

off-the-cuff

223:16

of-the-envelope

234:17

oh 38:7,10 41:15

47:18 81:11 83:9

86:14,17

114:3,18,19

119:21 124:10

127:20 133:5

147:20 148:15

162:1 163:5

164:6 179:4

183:11 209:20

233:7 239:20

244:22 245:10

261:2 275:10,21

277:20

OH3 26:10

okay 4:3 9:22 11:4

12:6,9,13 14:21

15:6,18 18:11,22

21:14 23:21 29:9

32:3,7,15,16

33:14,16 38:7,10

40:6,8 42:19

44:9 46:20
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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47:3,4 48:3,12

49:1 50:18 54:17

55:22 56:5,12

57:1,13,19 64:7

67:21

73:1,11,14,18

75:17,22 76:1,19

78:9

81:13,14,19,21

82:1 88:12

98:2,8,20 100:4

102:15,16

111:2,11 112:22

113:6,7,17,20

114:3,13,14,15,2

1 115:6

121:4,16,19

122:8,10,12,15

129:10

136:16,21

139:13 141:13

145:19 146:7

148:20 149:6

151:3 153:13

157:12 158:7

159:11 160:4,17

163:5 165:7

169:10 170:11

175:10,13,18

176:4 177:19

178:5 180:15

181:10,17 183:8

184:21,22

186:20 188:1

189:15 200:15

202:1,21 203:9

204:8 205:16

207:19 209:20

212:20 213:1

215:1 218:9

219:7,8,10 220:1

221:17 226:20

227:20 228:1

231:21 237:17

243:4 249:5

251:18 253:20

255:13

257:13,19

258:2,4 259:7

260:11

261:3,19,20

264:22 267:3

268:1,3,14

270:14,21 272:6

273:18 275:2

276:1 277:20

278:1 279:12

One/twenty-fifth

204:11,12

one-fourth 219:19

one-ish 111:19

one-quarter

217:4,8 219:22

220:2,3

ones 20:6 24:21,22

50:11 74:12

113:13 195:10

212:8 228:21

243:22 275:3,4,8

ongoing 7:9

onto 141:13

170:14 195:18

oops 114:19

open 15:20 17:5

23:3,7 35:8

79:10 190:16

199:11 247:19

269:11 273:7,13

operate 52:6

153:19 154:1

160:10 214:17

operating

42:8,10,11 89:9

150:19 160:5,8

182:7 203:22

213:12 218:17

219:13

operation 45:22

52:5 150:15

196:22 197:8

205:15 207:15

215:17,21

opinion 13:1 18:19

214:9

opportunities

225:12 228:18

opportunity 11:3

70:19 105:17

109:5 151:14

203:19 235:13

253:5

opposed 15:2

170:1

opposite 107:10

option 65:17 67:10

80:20 81:2 98:4

104:17 109:2

233:16 235:5,16

238:2

optional 107:9

options 57:22

60:15,16 63:18

73:9 104:16

171:7 232:3,7,10

238:9 262:17

277:14

order 22:5 54:4,6

57:2 68:16

141:15 166:11

183:19 234:19

252:7

ordering 236:2

organizations

88:14

original 218:1

others 18:20 43:13

98:1 99:5 119:21

170:8 171:20

268:4,6 277:7

279:5

otherwise 9:2 33:9

241:3

ought 27:1

ours 16:15

ourselves 175:7

199:16

outcome 175:6

231:11 234:11

241:7 249:6,17

outlined 101:16

output 62:16,18

63:7 68:4,5,7

72:9,13 77:9

86:6,8,9,22

122:18 226:14

227:7 245:2

outset 6:21

outside 11:1 19:16

26:16 198:6,14

overall

49:14,15,20,21

50:11 99:7,11

156:19 157:1

228:7

overarching

128:17

overestimate

150:18

overload 146:21

overloading 160:3

overseas 239:19

over-speeding

160:2

overstated 171:4
Capital Reporting Company

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overwhelms

162:16

P

p.m 200:22 280:6

P1 36:6 76:21

P-1 60:3 63:1

Pacific 5:21

267:17

package 99:7

100:8

packaging 98:7,16

packet 7:3

page 7:10 39:6

64:14 180:8

paired 35:21 77:13

78:12,15

paper 16:13 30:12

parabolic 179:14

183:7

parameters 8:13

258:20 270:10

278:16

pardon 88:3

113:10 213:16

224:7

pared 35:20

parse 258:9

partial 140:8

152:8

partially 133:8

PARTICIPANT

6:14 12:18

participate 254:8

particular 77:4

104:12 175:10

193:14 194:14

230:19 231:3

234:8,13 242:20

262:15,21

particularly 54:11

56:6 72:19 216:2

278:12 279:15

parties 282:9

partners 197:19

party 176:13

253:13 254:9

pass 49:20 97:13

106:5 119:2,8

154:20 155:2

269:5

past 190:13 198:16

path 18:8 25:18

64:19 97:21

134:10,13 175:2

184:16

pathway 15:11

32:11 95:3

patient 47:22

pattern 248:8

Patterson 4:21

15:6 20:4 29:5

100:18 206:8

220:13 236:7

Paul 2:4 4:18

54:6,21,22 67:6

139:14 149:5,6

164:2 197:11

225:15 226:6

payback

202:12,20 222:4

237:3

peaking 50:5,8

pedal 178:20,21

penalize 214:5

penalizing 214:3

people 30:18 39:17

54:5 59:14 71:3

88:10,19 89:3,7

90:16 108:11

109:14 159:15

164:18 176:5

220:8 222:15

232:10,12,17

254:8

per 33:22 35:7

36:18 37:6

38:4,8 43:20

58:13

59:8,13,16,18

63:14 67:19

71:12,13 72:19

73:7,11,12,13

75:6 76:13 77:22

78:18 83:17

86:20 87:15,16

106:2 115:9,19

116:14 117:19

118:7,21 119:3

121:11,17

122:11,14

125:11 126:1

128:19 135:20

141:21 142:3

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swimming 27:6,7
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Capital Reporting Company

Commercial and Industrial Pumps Working Group Meeting 03-05-2014

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www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014

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