## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 ASRAC COMMERCIAL UNITARY AIR CONDITIONERS WORKING GROUP MEETING JUNE 9, 2015 A P P E A R A N C E S Karim Amrane, Ph.D. Mary Anderson James Battaglia Chris Carr - via webinar John Cymbalsky Adam Darlington - via webinar Andrew deLaski Jim del Toro - via webinar Paul Doppel - via webinar David Garvin - via webinar Travis Hardin - via webinar Isael Hermosillo Eileen B. Hoffman Jill Hootman Long Huang - via webinar Marshall Hunt John J. Hurst Christopher Lau Steven Maddox - via webinar Michael J. McCabe Sam McClive - via webinar

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 1 Charles McCrudden 2 Karen Meyers 3 Nicholas Mislak 4 Raquel Nieto 5 Javier Ramirez 6 David D. Ransom 7 Michael Rivest 8 Greg Rosenquist 9 Harvey Sachs, Ph.D. 10 Amy Shepherd 11 Michael Shows - via webinar 12 Wade Smith - via webinar 13 Louis Starr 14 Eric Stas 15 Rusty Tharp 16 Meg Waltner - via webinar 17 Detlef Westphalen 18 Robert Whitwell - via webinar 19 Linda Wilson - via webinar 20 Dave Winningham 21 Mike Wolf - via webinar 22 Xing Xu - via webinar 23 Sami Zendah 24 25 AUDIO TRANSCRIBED BY KYLIE S. SHEPHERD

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Welcome, everyone. 3 Let's go ahead and get started. And the let's get 4 started with introductions, and then we'll go through and 5 see who's online. 6 Javier Ramirez with Federal Mediation. 7 MR. HERMOSILLO: Isael Hermosillo with Federal 8 Mediation. 9 MR. MISLAK: Nick Mislak, AHRI. 10 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. 11 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 12 MS. MEYERS: Karen Meyers, Rheem. 13 MR. WINNINGHAM: Dave Winningham, Allied Air. 14 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest Energy 15 Efficiency Alliance. 16 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E and the 17 California IOUs. 18 MR. deLASKI: Andrew deLaski, Appliance 19 Standards Awareness Project. 20 MR. McCRUDDEN: Charlie McCrudden, Air 21 Conditioning Contractors of America. 22 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson. 23 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General Counsel's 24 Office. 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, DOE Appliance

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 1 Standards. 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, LBNL. 3 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant. 4 MS. NETO: Raquel Neto, Navigant. 5 MR. LAU: Christopher Lau, Navigant. 6 MR. WESTPHALEN: Detlef Westphalen, Navigant. 7 MR. AMRANE: Karim Amrane, AHRI. 8 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, consultant to 9 Trane. 10 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. 11 MS. SHEPHERD: Amy Shepherd, AHRI. 12 MR. RANSOM: Dave Ransom, McDermott, Will & 13 Emery, we represent Goodman. 14 MR. HURST: John Hurst with Lennox. 15 MR. BATTAGLIA: James Battaglia from Navigant. 16 FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. On the webinar we have 17 David Garvin, Jim del Toro, Linda Wilson, Long Huang, Meg 18 Waltner, Michael Shows, Robert Whitwell, Sam McClive, and 19 Steven Maddox. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So this is John from DOE, 21 we are down to the home stretch here, so we have today 22 and tomorrow hopefully to figure things out, and then a 23 webinar on the 15th, if necessary. 24 So I'm hoping these next two days actually 25 provide the forum for us to get down to business and

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 1 hopefully get a terms sheet prepared and ready to send to 2 ASRAC, the ASRAC meeting on June 17th we were hoping 3 would be the place to raise a term sheet from this group. 4 So we're still on track. I think we made really 5 good progress last time we met. We've had proposals from 6 the manufacturers and the advocate community. At the 7 conclusion of last time, I remember we were, you know, 8 still a little ways apart on those positions. And I 9 think we all know DOE's position in the NOPR was TSL-3. 10 We're going to show some numbers today, again, 11 going through the TSLs there's been a couple revisions 12 based on what we talked about last time, most notably the 13 efficiency trend that wasn't captured in the numbers that 14 you'll see captured this time. So you'll see new 15 numbers. 16 I think we also have the analysis Navigant was 17 working on, and I know Carrier was interested in with the 18 IEER differentials. And we also have the dual duct 19 definition outstanding, as well. 20 So hopefully we can go through -- we're going to 21 go through the slide deck first just to show what the new 22 numbers are. And then at that point, we can then talk 23 about proposals and that, or we can flip to the other 24 content if we want. It's really up to the group on how 25 we move forward.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 1 But is there anything else anyone would like to 2 say before we jump into the revisions to the NIA? 3 MR. RAMIREZ: I'll go ahead and jump in, then. 4 All right. So before we give the floor to Greg, now, if 5 I remember correctly, there were really only a few things 6 that were left out of the initial proposal that the 7 industry had presented. 8 Both sides were going to be looking at the EER 9 language and see what we could do with that. The 10 effective dates under the second step, the levels, and 11 really that was about it. Everything else seemed to -- 12 in the form of a package, right, that both sides were 13 saying that they could live with pretty much everything 14 else that was in there. 15 And what I had asked you all was, think of ways 16 to be creative. And it seems like there would be no 17 reason that we can't get this thing done in the next 18 couple days, realistically probably even by the end of 19 today, looking at what we have. However, where the 20 complexity comes in is that creativity piece where we're 21 going to have to look at this stuff. Because everyone 22 knows what the DOE levels are, they came in at 3. 23 We're at a range between 2 and 4. But we do 24 have some moving pieces there as far as the dates, small 25 and large units. And that's where the creativity comes

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 1 in and seeing how can we adjust these numbers to make 2 everyone -- and I'm cautious even with the word 3 "satisfied," but that you could live with, right. That 4 you could live with the final numbers that you all agree 5 upon. 6 But let's go ahead and get started with Greg, 7 and then let's roll into these remaining issues and see 8 how close we can to get this thing wrapped up, maybe even 9 today. 10 MR. ROSENQUIST: Good morning, everyone. As 11 John mentioned, we made some updates to the National 12 Impact Analysis. The two primary things that lead to 13 significant changes in the numbers were our way of 14 accounting for stock. As you remember, were -- we have 15 quite a large drop -- we have a drop in shipments due to 16 the standards, and that leads to extended repairs of 17 existing units, rather than being replaced. 18 Those units get, on average, half the lifetime 19 of a normal unit. And due to some sort of peculiarities 20 in the way that we're accounting for those extended 21 repairs, we are underreporting those extended repair 22 stock numbers. It wasn't a lot, but as a result of that, 23 we were actually creating energy savings by effectively 24 displacing shipments. 25 So that has since been corrected, and that

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 1 revision of accounting for that extended repair stock 2 properly leads to approximately a 10 percent drop in the 3 numbers that you saw last week. 4 The other major change that leads to a 5 significant change in the numbers is the incorporation of 6 this building efficiency trend. You may have remembered 7 from a few weeks ago in our discussion of economizers, 8 how we said we were going to incorporate an efficiency 9 trend for the building stock, which implicitly accounts 10 for the use of things like better windows and 11 economizers. 12 And in the numbers we provided last week, we had 13 neglected to include that efficiency trend. And that 14 comes from the annual energy outlook and the 15 incorporation of that trend, again, because it leads to a 16 mor efficient building stock, reduces the energy use of 17 equipment in that stock, and in result, drops the energy 18 savings numbers by around 10 percent. 19 So together, as you'll see, the drop totals 20 about 20 percent. As a reminder, these were the trial 21 standard levels that were reported on last week, it's 22 just a combination of ELs from each one of the product 23 classes. 24 For example, TSL-2 is efficiency level 2 from 25 each product class. The only product class not like that

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 1 is efficiency level 3.5 where the very large equipment 2 classes are being assigned efficiency level 3 because 3 there's no efficiency level 3.5 for that equipment class. 4 And here are the numbers. Again, I think you 5 probably want to focus on the bottom lines where -- the 6 very, very bottom line was what was reported last week. 7 The line above that is -- are the new sets of numbers, 8 the new national energy savings numbers. 9 The next slide just reports the net present 10 value at 3 percent. And again, for comparison purposes, 11 you can see the new numbers relative to the old numbers, 12 and those old numbers that were reported last week are at 13 the very bottom row. 14 The next slide reports the NPVs at the 7 percent 15 real discount rate. And again, same formatting, last -- 16 very last row in this table is what was previously 17 reported last week, and the second to last row are the 18 revised results. 19 This slide provides the impacts -- the National 20 Impact Analysis results for the two proposals that were 21 put on the table last week. I've labeled them the 22 industry proposal and the advocate's proposal. 23 And as a reminder, it was adopting efficiency 24 level 1 with a compliance date of 2018 and efficiency 25 level 2.5 in 2024, that was under the industry proposal.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 1 The advocate's proposal was that same adopting 2 of efficiency level 1 in 2018, and efficiency level 4, 3 then, in 2022. You can see the numbers -- 4 MR. deLASKI: Can I interrupt, Greg, can 5 industry confirm that that's the right characterization 6 of your last proposal? 7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. It was 8 2.5 for this small, large, and 2.0 for the very large. 9 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. My apologies. I can 10 easily generate that number for you when I return to the 11 table. 12 MR. THARP: But this gets ballpark. So as far 13 as I'm concerned, this is ballpark, close enough. 14 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson. How did 15 you deal with the dates? Some of them have different 16 dates, January 1, 2018 versus '19. 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: We modified our spreadsheets to 18 account for that second tier that comes in at that later 19 date. 20 So -- and again, so I have a spreadsheet tool 21 that -- where I can alter the first compliance date to 22 either 2018 or 2019, and alter whatever more stringent 23 level after that, using compliance years between 2011 and 24 2024 -- I mean 2021 and 2024. 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: Just, it's not on this slide --

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 1 this is John from DOE. But I know I wrote this down as 2 that the DOE TSL-3 is 16.3, just to give some perspective 3 on the quad numbers between the two proposals and TSL-3, 4 which was DOE's proposal. 5 From what I'm understanding, if Greg changes the 6 12.6, sounds like it's going to go down a tick based 7 on -- 8 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, if I change the very 9 large equipment classes to 2.00, it will decrease the 10 energy savings number in the NPB savings that you see 11 listed there. And if you're interested, I can easily 12 generate that very quickly. 13 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt PG&E. And to refresh 14 our memory, it's 2019 for the NOPR? 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Right. Yeah, I should 16 reiterate that the previous slides here, for these -- 17 let's call them the standard -- trial standard levels, 18 all have a compliance date of 2019. 19 So that 16.3 that John was referring to for 20 TSL-3, you can see there. Again, that has a compliance 21 date of 2019. 22 MR. SACHS: John, this is Harvey. And your 16.3 23 is with the original NOPR value or what does that refer 24 to? 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: So the 16.3, if, you know, let's

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 1 say DOE was doing its course of business and it took all 2 this information through the public comment process, 3 reprocessed the NOPR based on all the information where 4 we reside today, that would be TSL-3 that DOE had 5 initially proposed. 6 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 7 MR. deLASKI: Right. So -- 8 MR. RAMIREZ: This is Javier. Just really 9 quick, can we just have folks state their names for the 10 record when they speak? Go ahead, Andrew. And then 11 Karim. 12 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. Greg, 13 question, when we -- for the DOE scenario, we are talking 14 about January 2019 or are we talking when DOE publishes 15 the rule three years after that? So how do you do the 16 analysis? 17 MR. ROSENQUIST: It effectively assumes a 18 January 1st, 2019 date. But as you point out, Karim, it 19 will be four years after the publication of the final 20 rule. 21 MR. deLASKI: Three. 22 MR. ROSENQUIST: It's three? 23 MR. deLASKI: Three. 24 MR. ROSENQUIST: Okay. Three years. 25 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. Just a couple

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 1 comments on that. One is just to clarify, so the 2 expectation was a final rule by the end of the year, and 3 then an effective date per the statute three years after 4 that. And every year we're assuming a January effective 5 date throughout the analysis, right, whatever the 6 scenario is? 7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right, you get the full years of 8 savings, right. That's correct. 9 MR. deLASKI: And then the 16.3 number, John, 10 that you're plucking -- that you're citing, you're just 11 looking at slide 8 here. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right. That's all I'm 13 just -- 14 MR. deLASKI: You're saying we updated the 15 analysis the way we all that's been updated through the 16 course of these negotiations, and the result -- the same 17 policy that was proposed in the NOPR per the updated 18 analysis would yield 16.3 quads of cumulative savings 19 that you would have saved over the analysis. 20 MR. CYMBALSKY: That's right. I was just trying 21 to equate the TSL choice in the NOPR to where we sit 22 today. That's right. 23 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. Just on 24 the three years, there was also some opinions submitted 25 with the NOPR comments that four years is the correct

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 1 time. There was some discussion, I think, just for the 2 record. 3 MR. ROSENQUIST: This next slide just provides 4 the CO2 reductions that result from the various trial 5 standard levels including the industry and the advocate's 6 proposals. And again, I just want to clarify, the 7 industry -- what I'm calling the industry proposal 8 includes a 2.5 for the very large equipment class. 9 So I mischaracterized that, it's really EL-2, 10 and so the numbers you see here are going to be a little 11 bit higher than what the actual impacts would be if you 12 set the very large class to EL-2. 13 That's all I had with the updates to the 14 National Impact Analysis. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: Any further questions or comments 16 for Greg? 17 So where do you all want to go from here as far 18 as digging into the outstanding issues? 19 MR. HUNT: Excuse me, Marshall Hunt from PG&E. 20 Greg, I do have one question I'd like you to comment on. 21 On the slide 8, although it's taken out in this copy, I'm 22 always noticing that the 3.5 -- for the small equipment, 23 3 is 5.8, 3.5 is 5.4, and 4 is 6. And I never really 24 believed that. Do you have any explanation how if I 25 didn't believe it, how I might go around figuring out

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 1 why? 2 MR. ROSENQUIST: Can you repeat your question? 3 I was talking with Mike. 4 MR. HUNT: So Marshall Hunt, PG&E. If you look 5 at the small equipment, this is on -- 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: Go back to slide 8, Greg. 7 He's basically saying why is TSL-3.5 lower 8 energy savings then -- go back. Right there. 5.8 and 9 then 5.4 and 6.0. And this was -- this was the fan 10 question. 11 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, it's the 12 characterization of that equipment design and, you know, 13 we've -- I think we've discussed this throughout the 14 meetings that we've had that, you know, there's a lot of 15 fan operation now at these elevated external static 16 pressures. 17 So something that looks attractive from an IEER 18 perspective, aren't in those external static rest 19 procedure when you put them into actual duct work with 20 higher static pressures, you would get a higher energy 21 consumption for the fan, and thus, you're starting to 22 depart, again, from what you would expect from the IEER. 23 So again, it's an issue that I believe Andrew, 24 in particular, has raised with the test procedure. But 25 again, you know, as we've said, the test procedure is off

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 1 limits. But that's, in general, the reason why you get 2 this behavior. 3 MR. HUNT: Thanks. 4 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah with Emerson. So 5 basically it's the unit that was used for the analysis. 6 I mean, it's just -- the design of the unit versus other 7 ones. So that's what the numbers shook up to be that, so 8 I don't -- 9 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, my recollection -- this is 10 Andrew. My recollection of some of the earlier 11 interaction, and I'm not sure whether Jill's on the phone 12 or not, but we -- there's a point of IEER difference 13 between 3 and 3.5. It goes from 14.8 to 15.8, so it's a 14 pretty good jump. It's a -- you know, an additional 15 9 percent of IEER improvement. 16 And I think what we heard before, I remember 17 Jill's comment because she made it in a really blunt and 18 clear way is that yeah, that could be the case. I mean, 19 it could be the case, right? So a unit could do that, 20 and under the tests the way it's structured. But what I 21 didn't hear was that that's the way we would do it, 22 right. And I think you know, that we -- as IEER goes up, 23 we expect there to be designs that will deliver energy 24 savings for the user because it's just -- granted, you 25 could -- so the test method lets you as a way you can

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 1 circumvent it to get a higher energy consumption, but 2 it's not what anybody wants to deliver for their 3 customer, I don't think. That's kind of what I heard. 4 MR. STARR: So Greg, this is a question for you. 5 Isn't also part of the problem -- Louis Starr with NEEA. 6 Isn't part of the problem where you're putting in the 7 curb in? So at I think seven-and-a-half ton, you're 8 kicking in the curb which actually introduces more static 9 pressure in addition -- so you have your external static 10 pressure, but you also have to overcome the curb and you 11 have a higher percentage of curb occurrence at that 12 higher TSL level. 13 And so it actually you end up using -- is that 14 part of what we're seeing in there, too? 15 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, that's a good point, 16 Louis. Although, you know, at TSL-3 I believe a fraction 17 of the market estimated to the curb conversion is around 18 the order of 65 to 70 percent. And then when you get to 19 3.5, it's only marginally larger than that. 20 So again, as Detlef had reported on in prior 21 meetings, you know, EL-1 approximately 30 percent of the 22 market is estimating at a conversion curb. And then by 23 EL-3, it's 70 percent. So it's -- I think you can more 24 or less draw a line between those two points, right. And 25 then it starts -- after 3 it starts flattening out a bit.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 1 MR. STARR: So I guess more of a question about 2 this, maybe this would help out. If it was a different 3 model, would that have really -- I mean, first of all, 4 how many models are at 3.5? 5 I think I had this discussion with someone over 6 at -- I don't remember if it was Navigant or whatever. 7 It wasn't a lot of models. So in other words, you picked 8 a representative model, but there may not have been that 9 many representative models. 10 What I'm getting at is, is how much is this 11 indicative of less about the model you picked and more 12 about something else? And that's kind of what the 13 concern is. You see what I'm saying? 14 In other words, if you went and used another 15 model and got the same number and you went and used all 16 five models and got essentially the same number, it's not 17 that you're choosing the wrong model, it's that maybe 18 there's something else wrong. 19 MR. ROSENQUIST: Yeah, I mean, again, we've 20 discussed that very issue in previous meetings. And I 21 know Detlef, if you want -- I don't know if you want to 22 comment further on that, but -- 23 MR. WESTPHALEN: Hello? Yeah, I'm just looking 24 back at the units selected and the component wattage 25 profiles. The EL-3 has a 14.77, hundredths digits IEER

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 1 with a 623 watt indoor fan for the test condition at the 2 full speed. EL-3.5 does have a point higher IEER at 3 15.78, but the indoor power fan power at full speed is 4 970. 5 So it just happens to be a selection that, while 6 it does have a better IEER, has more fan power because of 7 the way the energy use analysis emphasizes the fan power 8 more, we get this result. 9 MR. STARR: So that has nothing to do with the 10 curb; right? 11 MR. WESTPHALEN: Well, I mean it impacts the 12 numbers that you see, clearly. Regarding the curb -- I 13 thought you said curve. 14 There is an increase in percentage of units that 15 are modeled as using a curb adapter, but I don't think 16 that's it. 17 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg. It looks like -- can 18 you hear me? 19 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 20 MS. WALTNER: Okay. There's an echo, but I'll 21 just talk through it. 22 So it looks like the difference between EL-3 and 23 3.5 for the use of curb adapters is 60 to 70 percent for 24 the seven-and-a-half ton units. And then the other 25 difference that I noted was that the EL-3 unit was a

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 1 three-stage unit, and the EL-3.5 unit was a two-stage 2 unit. I'm wondering how much that's driving the 3 difference in the analysis. 4 MR. WESTPHALEN: This is Detlef. I don't think 5 so. These were all modeled as staged air volume. And so 6 there was only one stage as far -- or two stages, shall 7 we say, as far as the air flow goes. The 3 had, you 8 know, for the test procedure conditions had a 623 at full 9 fan and then a 310 at part load. The 3.5 was 970 at full 10 fan and then 528 at the part load. 11 MR. deLASKI: I think we have spent quite a bit 12 of time on this topic and -- as Greg is nodding his head 13 and has pointed out on this topic previously at our 14 earlier meetings. And it's -- I think where we've landed 15 on this particular issue, and what I've heard is that 16 there's an agreement that we need to -- not for this 17 docket -- but for future, to take a look back at IEER to 18 have it better reflect fan energy consumption. And that 19 that was part of our tentative agreement -- I think we 20 had a tentative agreement on as Javier suggested at the 21 beginning, that that was a point that we had that there 22 should be a look at the test method to better incorporate 23 the energy use so that this anomalous result which we 24 can't attain should be avoided in the future. Can be 25 avoided in the future, but we can't do it for this docket

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 1 given the ground rules that were laid down. Now, people 2 have other ideas, I'm open to hearing them, but that's 3 where I thought we left things. 4 I also, you know, would ask -- no, let me leave 5 it at that because it looks like Rusty wants to say 6 something. 7 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp, Goodman. My company 8 would support some modification, some discussions on test 9 procedures, and -- I just had a senior moment. I forgot 10 where I was going with that, so I'll come back. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah Rusty, I think you're a 12 little too young for that, but we'll accept it. 13 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied Air. 14 You know, I think this whole discussion and around this 15 brings to light that there's a lot of variability in 16 these analysis and it's highly dependent upon what 17 systems you choose and what assumptions. 18 Some of the assumptions that we have made here 19 go well beyond the test procedure, and we're getting 20 results that are unexpected. You know, we agreed to .75 21 and 1.25, but there is a large population of products 22 that probably have static pressures of .3 and maybe even 23 below that, particularly in big box and retail type 24 application. And so we've driven this kind of into an 25 area that, really, IEER wasn't intended to address.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 1 But again, it kind of brings to light that this 2 stares a lot of variability and questions around the 3 analysis in general. And I'm not advocating that we go 4 back; we are where we are, we're here to talk about those 5 levels. But realize, they're probably directional at 6 best. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Dave, I'd like to use it as a 8 segway, right. If you all have already agreed on certain 9 assumptions with the additional information that Greg 10 just provided, how does that impact the remaining items 11 that we need to negotiate? 12 And I say "remaining" in the context of a 13 package deal. But try to narrow the focus to those few 14 items. Where do we go from here? 15 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, I guess, you know, just 16 to open the discussion. The manufacturers have reviewed 17 what was discussed at the last meeting, and each of us 18 has went back to our own organizations and discussed what 19 the manufacturers proposed and also what the advocates 20 have proposed. And I think each of the organizations has 21 got a varied response of support for their own 22 manufacturers proposals. 23 The current advocate's proposal is well beyond 24 anything that the manufacturers could support. At TSL-4 25 and 5, you can kind of throw a blanket -- that's all max

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 1 tech's options. It's just a bandwidth of the same types 2 of technology and how a manufacturer has chosen to employ 3 those. 4 Going back to DOE's NOPR, the manufacturers had 5 many concerns about the NOPR proposed levels. You know, 6 the system energy analysis, and the manufacturers still 7 maintain those concerns. There was even a growing 8 concern over the economic analysis and some of the 9 assumptions that went into this. 10 And I know there is a banding of the IMPB, but 11 even at the probably the worst case scenario, many of the 12 manufacturers feel that that's probably a rosy outlook. 13 The NOPR stated employment levels of 1,085 14 domestic employees. And at the last meeting, we 15 discussed that we feel that is off by a significant 16 factor. And I am really, personally troubled that none 17 of this analysis has been updated to take that into 18 consideration. These are real people with real impacts, 19 and we don't even have a slide for that. That bothers 20 me, personally. 21 The manufacturers maintain that the process for 22 commercial products is different than residential. That 23 any incremental level beyond 90.1 must be supported by 24 clear and convincing evidence. You know, in this 25 determination there's seven factors that need to be

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 1 considered, including the economic impacts on consumers 2 and manufacturers, lessening of competition, impacts on 3 utility. And the NOPR DOE concluded that EL-4 didn't 4 meet the criteria for basically legal economic 5 justification. The manufacturers commented that they 6 believe that clear and convincing evidence hadn't been 7 established at EL-3. 8 Now, having said that, we're here to negotiate 9 and I think we've been very forthcoming with information 10 to help update these analysis, but we still have 11 significant concerns going forward with this. We are 12 concerned that while we can reach agreement here, DOE is 13 still bound to that legal economic justification, and we 14 can't actively support something that we feel is beyond 15 those levels. 16 You know, there are many issues we've discussed: 17 The ventilation air, the static pressure, and we also 18 talked about the employment levels. And as we're kind 19 of, you know, reengaging here today, I just would ask 20 that those factors be considered. The manufacturers 21 aren't in a position to, at this point, move beyond what 22 they have already proposed. 23 And Rusty, I don't know if you've got any 24 further. 25 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. As Dave

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 1 mentioned, one of the concerns that my company has is 2 that the -- primary concerns is the energy consumptions 3 that energy savings that are proposed or estimated are 4 based on values that are not really from a test 5 procedure. 6 So they're -- and what will -- the energy 7 savings that will be found in the field cannot truly be 8 for any one consumer, cannot truly be identified by 9 solely the IEER metric alone. Because as we've discussed 10 many times, I believe the -- there are many ways that a 11 manufacturer can get to a certain IEER level. 12 A manufacturer can choose compression technology 13 and make Sami happy. We can choose heat transfer 14 technology, we can choose air movement technology as 15 alternate ways to improve the overall IEER of the 16 product. 17 So just because Manufacturer A hits IEER and 18 gets X number of ventilation savings, Manufacturer B with 19 the exact same IEER is not going to have that same 20 ventilation savings. And so we don't think it's 21 necessarily right that we're proceeding down this path of 22 proclaiming X number of quads saved by the IEER metric. 23 So that's why I stated earlier, in the long run 24 some changes to test procedure and modifications would be 25 appropriate. But with where we're at today with the test

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 1 procedure we have, we can't necessarily get there. 2 So as we're marching down the path towards -- 3 our intent, as Dave indicated, my and my company's intent 4 is the same as Dave's in that we want to come to some 5 sort of agreement. We think that's better than the other 6 alternatives. But we also want to do what we believe is 7 economically justified and technologically feasible. And 8 we want to be able to, you know, march down the path 9 together where we get to a point together where we, as 10 industry, supply information that helps the consumers 11 make the right choices for their applications. 12 And, you know, as we march through this 13 analysis, you know, there's -- the exact same product 14 that we -- Consumer A uses, he could have that product 15 with practically no ventilation or very minimal 16 ventilation hours. Another building could use the exact 17 same product with the exact same IEER rating and be using 18 lots and lots of ventilation hours. 19 So it's hard to see how that one metric and we 20 can claim the same certain number of savings without 21 having more detailed information. So that's where we're 22 at. 23 MR. STARR: So this is Louis with NEEA. You 24 know, I understand the concept, obviously, that, you 25 know, the energy use of this equipment can be from

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 1 multiple areas. 2 You know, just from a practical standpoint from 3 NEEA's standpoint, we look at it and we're concerned a 4 little bit that the metric is real heavily weighted 5 towards refrigeration side. And while you're correct 6 that, you know, you could have a building, a data center 7 could be an example where you have no ventilation; right? 8 And so it wouldn't make sense. 9 But most buildings have people in them, and 10 there's quite a bit of ventilation that occurs. And so 11 the test procedure is more weighted towards the 12 refrigeration side by quite a bit. 13 And, you know, as far as doing lots of analyses 14 and modeling in the northwest in general those static 15 pressures and talking with Newcomb & Boyd, I can't think 16 of his name, type guy. And in general, from what I 17 specified lots of equipment for a number of years, we 18 used much higher static pressures. Now, I understand 19 they may be redesigning duct work, but if you go back to 20 existing buildings now, you'll be matching up to existing 21 duct work that's much higher than the static pressure 22 that's used in a test procedure. 23 Our concern is that moving forward, you know, 24 regardless of what level we choose, that you're driving 25 towards something that's not really getting energy

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 1 savings. And California is seeing this where they're 2 trying to give out rebates based on these things. 3 There's no connection with the actual -- and I realize 4 there's some shortcomings just using one metric. 5 And so, you know, the creative aspect of that is 6 maybe introducing some other things in there, whether 7 that's maybe high load type of buildings, buildings that 8 have high internal loads, maybe that's a weather 9 component with cooling degree days, or something along 10 the lines that would make a little bit more robust-type 11 test procedure. 12 And so I don't know what the answer to that is, 13 but that's kind of our thought is just like, how can we 14 bring to bear some of that information to help that 15 metric be better in a way that gets us energy savings and 16 you a clear direction forward? And so that's the part 17 we're trying to figure out and how do you do that. I 18 mean, ultimately, that's what I'm concerned about. And 19 so that's what, when we're talking about that, that's 20 what we're trying to figure out and help come up with a 21 solution that maybe moves that brings more resources to 22 bear. 23 Like we can -- I think California and northwest 24 can provide resources to, you know, maybe get some of 25 that information, help out the analysis. DOE can bring

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 1 some, you know, their consultants in terms of a test 2 procedure. 3 I'm just -- you know, I know we're not going to 4 talk about the test procedure, but my concern is is that 5 maybe AHRI wouldn't necessarily have the robustness to 6 develop that a little more further to the level it needs 7 to be in accurate energy use. And so that's kind of what 8 I'm thinking about. 9 MR. deLASKI: This is Andrew. I think that's 10 all good, right. And sure, you know, let's work on those 11 things, but that's not why we're here. We're here to 12 negotiate the levels to the next DOE standard. 13 So we -- I hear you, you know, if we don't get 14 to agreement, then you're going to bang away at DOE that 15 some lower level is justified, and we're going to bang 16 away that some higher level is justified. 17 The question is: Can we cover some ground today 18 to try to merge the differences? What I look is the 19 slide that DOE quite nicely prepared for us and left up 20 on the screen, which is a different -- this is the 21 analysis, right, this is the hand that we've been dealt, 22 and we may not all like it. But it is the -- to borrow 23 Javier's phrase, you know, I can live with it. I'm not 24 very happy about that 3 to 3.5 increase in energy 25 consumption for the small equipment, you know, that

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 1 bothers me. But there are many things in here that 2 bother you guys, and there are things in here that bother 3 me, too. The curves we talked about, there's a bunch of 4 compromises in here. 5 But as Dave said, you know, there's a lot of 6 uncertainty. But, you know, I can live with this. So 7 you know, if we don't reach an agreement, you know, then 8 we'll just continue to argue about what's right and 9 what's wrong and what lead times are permissible and 10 what's clear and convincing or whether it's the other 11 standard. Okay? That's up to the lawyers to argue. You 12 know, we're not here to argue those points I don't think. 13 What I'm interested in is, you know, is -- so we 14 have proposed a level that would yield 18.2 quads of NES 15 under the current analysis. And you've proposed a level 16 that I did -- and the math wasn't that hard, it's 12.1 17 quads. Okay. So that's the delta, that's the 18 difference. 19 DOE proposed a level in their NOPR that would 20 yield 16.3. So we've got -- you know, that's kind of the 21 zone, if you will. You know, we -- the question I would 22 pose, you know, back to industry is -- is, you know, 23 what -- we both need to think about, where is the 24 flexibility to bridge that gap and bring us to a level 25 that we all can live with given this range of equipment

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 1 classes. 2 So maybe what would make sense, Javier, would be 3 individual caucuses, one idea, for each side to think 4 about that question. 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 6 MR. deLASKI: If not, the teams have come today 7 with a revision to their proposal sort of in their 8 pocket, because I don't have a revision in my pocket that 9 I am prepared to share. I was hoping where we left last 10 meeting, I thought was, you know, our request to you guys 11 to think about, you know, where you can improve on level 12 2 to bridge that difference. And you know, so obviously 13 you came back with nothing to offer -- to open, but we 14 knew this wasn't sort of a half-hour meeting. 15 So I hope you've got something more than 16 nothing. Otherwise, maybe it is a half-hour meeting 17 today. But I don't think that's where we're at. 18 MR. RAMIREZ: Andrew, let me jump in. I would 19 hope that we can keep you here for longer than a half an 20 hour. And somewhat pulling, I guess, a Kennedy trick, 21 I'm choosing to hear certain things. Because I've heard 22 two different things and I'm going to pick the one that I 23 heard that we want to get a deal done, we prefer to get a 24 deal done. So that's the one I'm going to jump on. 25 And also, maybe we have to change our role a

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 32 1 little bit. And I say "we," the facilitators where we 2 sometimes do what we call a "fa-mediate," facilitating 3 and mediating, right. So we're putting out a little more 4 of our mediator hat versus our facilitator hat. 5 And I do want to try what Andrew was talking 6 about as far as having the groups break up for separate 7 caucuses and see if maybe we can take a little bit of 8 time with both sides in their separate caucuses just to 9 have a little discussion before we see where we can move 10 forward, if anywhere. 11 As Andrew has stated, the delta is 6.1 quads; 12 right? That's the difference between the 18.2 and the 13 12.1 is 6.1. There's different ways of getting there, 14 right, and that's that creativity part that, is there a 15 way that we can play with dates, maybe the different size 16 of the units, doing some tweaking here and there to find 17 the number that both sides could hopefully live with. 18 But that's my suggestion is that let's break off 19 into separate caucuses and maybe we can spend -- the 20 facilitators can spend a little bit of time with each 21 side. 22 MR. deLASKI: Javier, just a follow-up question. 23 Are the consultants prepared to run scenarios for us if 24 we need that they can run for different levels for 25 different dates for different by product class?

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 33 1 MR. CYMBALSKY: So this is John from DOE and 2 then we'll let John talk. We're also working on a little 3 revised revision to the MIA following up on Dave's 4 comments. 5 So maybe after John speaks, maybe we can break, 6 let them do a little work, let me run through a phone 7 call, and come back. 8 MR. deLASKI: I also don't want to be 9 misunderstood. I'm all about getting an agreement. 10 Okay? That's why we're here, that's what we've been 11 working on this for several weeks now. And, you know, I 12 won't consider this to be a success unless we reach an 13 agreement, personally. So I don't think any of us want 14 this to end up in a litigation, you know, a contentious, 15 contested rule making. You know, that's why we've been 16 working at this. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get John and Louis. Okay? 18 MR. HURST: Andrew, we agree. I don't think any 19 of us wants to walk away from this without being 20 productive. My preference is to put this in the rearview 21 mirror and start working towards whatever we're going to 22 work towards. 23 This is John Hurst with Lennox, I don't know if 24 I said that, I'm sorry. I also think there's some other 25 factors we need to consider. So John, you kind of beat

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 34 1 me to the punch, I appreciate that. We're not just 2 talking about quads saved, there's other factors that the 3 DOE needs to consider, and those considerations from 4 manufacturers involve real people, real jobs, 5 shareowners, people that own our companies as well. So 6 those are important to us as well. Thank you. 7 MR. STARR: So this is Louis Starr with NEEA. 8 One thing I point -- I think when the manufacturers 9 crafted their proposal, part of that obviously was 10 balancing the net loss present value, but also at the 11 same time, look at the energy savings. 12 And so this has now changed with the new 13 analysis, so I would hope that the proposal would shift a 14 little bit to reflect that as well. In terms of if the 15 numbers were the same that we had at the last meeting, it 16 would make this a little bit easier. But now we've 17 actually shifted down so that the savings that are 18 available are now less. And part of the basis of how I 19 came up with some of those numbers was based upon the 20 savings. So those would adjust, I think, maybe their 21 proposal would shift a little as well. 22 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. John, did I hear 23 correctly to you're still doing a revision of the MIA? 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: We do have some tweaks that I 25 think we're making right now. But we wanted to address

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 35 1 the points that Dave brought up, yes. 2 MR. SACHS: Do you have -- 3 MR. CYMBALSKY: We have slides. 4 MR. SACHS: You have slides, would it be -- 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, so let's -- how much time do 6 you need? A 10, 15 minute break or more? How much time 7 do you need? 8 MR. SACHS: We've got two different breaks we're 9 talking about. One of them is, what would it take to get 10 the MIA before the caucuses where that combines the two, 11 and I think that's really the question I'm asking. 12 MR. RAMIREZ: So is your preference to see what 13 we have over here first before we -- 14 MR. SACHS: Having spent this -- this is Harvey. 15 Having spent this much time trying to derive the best 16 possible numbers, as we caucus, it seems to me that it 17 makes sense to have the best possible numbers before 18 we -- 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: It depends what card you've got 20 on the river is the way I look at it, but yeah. 21 MR. SACHS: Cars on the river? 22 MR. RAMIREZ: He's not a gambler there. Let me 23 ask the folks over here at the side table. 24 How much do you need? 25 MR. LAU: So we have GRIM results prepared, IMP

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 36 1 results that reflect the proposals made at the end of the 2 last meeting. So we can see how those impact IMPB. 3 Those numbers include revised conversion costs, as 4 primarily focused on revised conversion costs. 5 In terms of employment, we had some rough 6 numbers we had done last week. We hadn't presented them. 7 I think we just need a few more -- we probably need 8 another 20 minutes to clean those up where we can 9 actually present the employment numbers if that's what 10 the folks are interested in. 11 MR. CYMBALSKY: You want to do that? Okay. So 12 let's get Mike Rivest up here. He'll go through the IMPB 13 numbers, show you the manufacturing impacts for the two 14 proposals that are out there with the updated conversion 15 costs. And hopefully during that time Chris will get the 16 employment numbers cleaned up. 17 MR. HUNT: This is Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Can we 18 just have that e-mailed out, the -- what's going to be 19 shown? We have the slide that's been sent out, but we 20 don't have this. 21 MALE SPEAKER: You can take it out. 22 FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, I could e-mail it from 23 here or e-mail it from my computer. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: We're just going to get this 25 e-mail for the folks.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 37 1 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. Thank you. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay, Michael. For the recorder, 3 too. 4 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant. I'll be 5 presenting the revised cash flow analysis numbers. And 6 just want to go over with you the inputs that have been 7 changed since the last meeting. 8 There have been no changes to the manufacturing 9 production costs. So these are still coming out of the 10 most recent engineering analysis. The shipment forecasts 11 are consistent with what was presented last time and what 12 was presented today. And the markup scenarios are also 13 the same. There's been an update to one of the financial 14 metrics, I'll go over that. 15 Major change on the conversion costs. I'll 16 explain what we did over there. Standards year, we 17 modeled the proposals, and we -- we've -- we have a tool, 18 which isn't yet -- I wouldn't call it a fully operational 19 two-phase GRIM, but it's something that will allow us to 20 develop additional scenarios that as, you know, if you 21 continue to negotiate today, will be able to model 22 additional GRIM scenarios. And I'll have the results for 23 the two-tier proposals that were -- that were laid out 24 last week. 25 Had a careful look at all matters of capital

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 38 1 expenditures, R&D expenditures, looked at the previous 2 base case numbers to make sure that we were properly 3 calibrated. I notice that the figures that had been used 4 for capital conversion under the base case were -- were 5 high compared to the shipment numbers, which are 6 relatively flat. So I recalibrated -- we recalibrated 7 the capital cost to be more in line with the depreciation 8 to reflect an industry with a very flat, steady gross. 9 I think I was looking up base case shipments 10 increasing 40 percent over a 30-year forecast period. So 11 this is a very slow growth, and I would expect in that 12 context, the capital, you know, the normal capital 13 expenditures to be replacing the R&D expense, basically. 14 So that's why those two numbers are now more in line. 15 During the last meeting there were concerns over 16 the capital conversion costs that were used in the GRIM. 17 So the manufacturers asked to see us to review the 18 interview notes that we had and some of the estimates 19 that were used in the GRIM. So we had additional 20 interviews and Chris had incorporated those for last 21 week. So we've incorporated everything that we have on 22 conversion costs up until now into this revised GRIM. 23 And on this table, you'll see the previous 24 numbers in parens on the other -- sorry. Yeah, I would 25 think so, yeah. So the new numbers in parens and the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 39 1 previous numbers outside them. 2 MR. HUNT: Could you speak up, please? That's a 3 critical point. It's Marshall Hunt. I couldn't hear 4 what you said. 5 MR. RIVEST: Okay. What you're seeing here on 6 this table are the product conversion and the capital 7 conversion costs for each of the trial standard levels, 8 the numbers that we had last week, and also that were in 9 the NOPR. And here you have the numbers that incorporate 10 all of the most recent information that we received. 11 MR. HUNT: In parenthesis? 12 MR. RIVEST: Correct, in parenthesis, that's 13 correct. 14 MR. HUNT: The new numbers are in parens. Can I 15 extract, say, TSL-1 from TSL-2 and get a differential 16 moving from 1 to 2? 17 MR. RIVEST: That's correct, yes. 18 MR. HUNT: Thank you. 19 MR. RIVEST: These are the revised GRIM numbers 20 for a single-tier standard effective in 2019 at the TSLs, 21 the TSLs from the NOPR and the TSL-2.5 and 3.5 and 5. 22 MR. HUNT: What was the next slide? 23 MR. RIVEST: Sure. 24 MR. WHITWELL: Hey Mike, this is Bob Whitwell. 25 I've got a question for you: Which scenario are these?

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 40 1 In the prior analysis there were two scenarios, the high 2 and the low. 3 MR. RIVEST: This is the higher impact. 4 MR. WHITWELL: Higher impact scenario, thanks. 5 MR. RIVEST: Didn't do the lower one, didn't 6 have time. We were literally working on these at 7 midnight. 8 MR. deLASKI: Could you say, Mike -- I mean, so 9 I'm just jotting these down on the yellow line from the 10 prior that we don't have -- I'm colorblind, the top line, 11 whatever that is. 12 So what would it do to the top line? I mean, 13 this is basically moving -- it's a little bit more 14 severe -- actually, no, it goes in both directions 15 depending on the level. 16 MR. RIVEST: I think -- you know, I didn't 17 compare. I mean, I eyeballed -- 18 MR. deLASKI: I mean, right now it's showing -- 19 it's a little -- slightly more, it's additional .2 20 percent the cost to TSL-1, it's a little less severe 21 at TSL-2, it's a little more severe at TSL-2.5. You 22 know, so it's not -- the impact is not -- it's not -- it 23 doesn't correlate. 24 MR. RIVEST: No, it shouldn't correlate with 25 anything because it's -- the capital costs are revised.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 41 1 MR. deLASKI: Based on the interviews with 2 manufacturers -- 3 MR. RIVEST: Right. 4 MR. deLASKI: -- based on your input 5 individual -- 6 MR. RIVEST: Right. And I assure you and I 7 assure the manufacturers here, this reflects all the 8 information we've received. 9 MR. deLASKI: Can you say how it would effect 10 the top line, the high estimate? I mean, would it be 11 proportional or not necessarily? 12 MR. RIVEST: I don't -- honestly, I didn't look 13 at it. We didn't run that scenario. I wouldn't want to 14 speculate. 15 MR. LAU: I think I can speak to that. 16 MR. RIVEST: You want to speculate? 17 MR. RAMIREZ: State your name for the record. 18 MR. LAU: This is Chris Lau with Navigant. So 19 there were -- as you saw on the first slide, there were 20 several things that changed including the financial 21 metrics, conversion costs, actually those were the two 22 primary changes. 23 However, I would say that the -- when you look 24 at the top line number, the rosy scenario, if you will, 25 the primary driver -- one of the primary drivers of that,

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 42 1 that keeps it from getting exceptionally rosy are the 2 conversion costs. So if we were -- if we had time to run 3 the other model again, we kind of have some indicative 4 results here. They are generally slightly less rosy, but 5 still -- 6 MR. RIVEST: There were two counter-availing 7 effects here of changing the capital costs percentage 8 made things increase the base case industry value, which 9 is the denominator in the percentage loss. And the 10 increase in suspend for capital and product conversion 11 is, you know, goes the other way. 12 And then, you know, I spent a lot of time 13 looking at 3 and 3.5 and why there wasn't a bigger 14 difference. And it goes back to the data feeding in the 15 model. I mean there's just, the shipments aren't any 16 different, the revenues aren't any different, and the 17 capital costs were not really that different because the 18 products being shipped aren't that different. 19 So you know, the downstream analysis is not 20 capturing a lot of difference in these products, so 21 that's why the GRIM's not capturing a lot of difference. 22 Although, there is that whole 1 IEER difference. So 23 that's just a reflection of what's feeding in. 24 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, this is Andrew. I'm looking 25 at slide 77 from the last meeting which showed the two

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 43 1 figures, the two IMPB over time under the two scenarios, 2 the preservation of gross margins and the preservation of 3 operating markets. And so as I jot in -- so I pencil in 4 those numbers, it looks like it sort of smooths out that 5 curve, frankly. This little blip at 2.5, which was a 6 little knee -- looks like it's a more smooth curve, but 7 the general shape is the same. There still is, as you 8 guys have pointed out, a pretty good -- I guess I'll call 9 it inflection point at 3.5 in terms of manufacture costs 10 in terms of this model. 11 MR. RIVEST: The big jumps at 4 or 5 -- 4 or 5. 12 MR. deLASKI: That's what it was before, and 13 that's what it remains, it seems to be. 14 MR. RIVEST: Right. I mean, 4 and 5 are 15 significantly different from a 3. We're talking about 16 IEERs and the, you know, up to 20, 20. 17 MR. deLASKI: There's also a big difference 18 between 2 and 2.5, 50 percent increase between 2 and 2.5. 19 MR. RIVEST: That's like 13 to 15, something 20 like that. It depends on the class. I'll move onto the 21 next slide if that's okay. 22 So here are the results of the two-tier modeling 23 of the proposals. And you'll see, I mean, the results 24 are not unexpected. What I want to say is that right now 25 it appears that the delay from, say, whether it's a 3 or

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 44 1 4 or whatever is negated a little bit by the imposition 2 of that first tier. 3 And so -- and really, what we're capturing in 4 this modeling is strictly the time value of money. The 5 fact that we're pushing out investments, say, at TSL-4 or 6 3 or 2.5. And if we're moving them from 2019 to 2022 and 7 2024, right now, all the model is doing is it's 8 discounting those investments for several years more. So 9 it's capturing time value of money differences, but what 10 it's not doing is capturing any additional benefits from 11 moving a standard date from 2019 to, say, 2024. 12 And in my next slide here -- and I haven't 13 modeled that -- and before I do, I sort of wanted to -- 14 to give you my thinking and sort of experience from 15 previous rule-makings where we modeled two tiers of 16 things that were considered in the modeling. 17 So right now, we have product conversion and 18 capital conversion costs coming in for tier 1 at 2019 or 19 2018. And then we have another series of product 20 conversion, product and capital conversion costs coming 21 in at 2022 or 2024. And we're treating them as additive. 22 So there's no assumed synergies here because I hadn't 23 noticed, you know, at this point I had no data to presume 24 anything else. So it's a worst case. 25 In previous rule-makings, one way that we've

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 45 1 modeled the gap years, that is say, for example, the year 2 between 2019 and 2024 to show the benefits of those 3 additional years. Now, whether we're talking about R&D 4 or we're talking about additional capital, the company in 5 our model is spending about 2 percent of revenue. So 6 $26, $23 million a year on R&D during those five years 7 and $26 million a year in capital, just to replenish, you 8 know, the product life cycles that are ending to 9 replenish the tooling that's used. 10 So the question is: Should part of that capital 11 be counted towards the product conversion costs that 12 we're incurring to meet the second tier; right? So are 13 we making those costs coincide? What I can tell you is, 14 in other rules we've taken that into account and said, 15 well, yes, I think it's reasonable to say that part of 16 the R&D effort in those five years that are in the 17 baseline can now be -- you know, used for meeting that 18 standard. 19 So if we do that, it would show an additional 20 benefit to that 2014 delay or that 2022 delay. It's not 21 necessarily enormous, but I think it would reflect more 22 realistically the benefits that -- that, you know, 23 inherently we know that are there. 24 MR. deLASKI: Mike, can you go back a slide? 25 MR. RIVEST: Sure.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 46 1 MR. deLASKI: So I'm not sure I'm taking this 2 onboard. You're showing that in the right-hand cell 3 there, here to a 20 -- TSL-2.5 effective 2024 under the 4 pessimistic scenario, the one that's called the 5 preservation of operating profit would reduce industry 6 net present value by 25.8 percent? 7 MR. RIVEST: Depending if the tier 1 is coming 8 in 2018 or 2019. 9 So -- so the first -- this is my understanding 10 of the three proposals I heard last week. I had the same 11 misunderstanding as Greg, I lumped the TSL-2.5 for all 12 three product classes. 13 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 14 MR. RIVEST: But what I heard last week was, the 15 first -- what the first offer was a 2019 tier 1 with a 16 2024 tier 2 at 2.5. 17 MR. deLASKI: Not exactly, but I think -- 18 MR. RIVEST: Not exactly. That would be 24.9, 19 which is slightly less severe than, say, the proposed 20 rule, which was what, TSL-3? 21 MR. deLASKI: So here's what I'm having trouble 22 putting together. In this slides -- in the previous 23 slide you just showed, you showed that a standard 24 effective in 2019 at TSL-2.5 would reduce industry net 25 present value by 22.3 percent.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 47 1 MR. RIVEST: Right. That's what I opened up 2 with by saying that the cumulative impact of having to 3 comply with an EL-1, a TSL-1 in '19 and then that 2.5 in 4 '24 is actually worse. 5 MR. deLASKI: I see. In your model. 6 MR. RIVEST: In my model, if I don't take into 7 account some synergies, if I don't take into account that 8 some of those R&D -- that five years, you know, is going 9 to be used to -- some of that spend is actually spend 10 they would have done anyway, in other words. Or that is 11 going to coincide with other things they would have done 12 to upgrade their -- you know, to meet other requirements 13 either from the market or from other regulations. That's 14 what I was saying. 15 MR. HUNT: Marshall Hunt, PG&E. What about the 16 fact that TSL-1 is ASHRAE 90.1 in general? 17 MR. RIVEST: So I went back through all the 18 interview notes, and it was clear and the people were 19 telling me and several manufacturers said, "I have no 20 compliance cost at TSL-1." 21 I'm sorry. I went back through all the 22 interview notes and it was -- it was part of the 23 interview, several manufacturers said, "We have no 24 compliance costs at TSL-1," and some said they did. So 25 that -- it's actually embedded in those numbers.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 48 1 MR. deLASKI: I guess what I'm having trouble 2 with, Mike, is how the manufacturers have stated really 3 clearly what their proposal that they prefer a two-stage 4 approach that they are tier 1. 5 MR. RIVEST: Well, that's why -- 6 MR. deLASKI: So that's why -- I don't know 7 these numbers, how they help us, so -- 8 MR. RIVEST: Well, what -- and that's why I'm 9 saying that I believe we have to model some synergies to 10 be realistic of the benefit of that two tier. 11 MR. deLASKI: I mean, there's -- right. You 12 guys have been really clear with this that the later date 13 is a big help, too. So -- 14 MR. RIVEST: Right. So some of that -- I don't 15 know if it's the TSL-1 investments that can be reduced -- 16 reduce the TSL-2, the stage 2. Or it's saying, well, 17 part of that R&D, that $23 million a year can be used to 18 comply to the standard. 19 That's, you know, I can -- what I was going to 20 propose to do is to run the model assuming 50 percent, 21 which is not a decision, it's just something that will 22 allow you to see the impact of those factors, you know? 23 MR. deLASKI: I mean, it strikes me, and again 24 this is a manufacturer issue for you guys to comment on. 25 But it strikes me that, you know, when you have more time

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 49 1 then you can plan. You can stage things in ways that are 2 ultimately going to be -- when you have to do things in a 3 rush -- 4 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. I'll say 5 one of the things that I seriously doubt any manufacturer 6 commented on. I know we don't, I know the numbers not in 7 there are the numbers are the conversion -- the capital 8 costs associated with the refrigerant conversions. So 9 those, as we manufacturers redesign products for an 10 alternate refrigerant, whatever that might be, there's a 11 bunch of costs there, right. 12 So as part of the White House Counsel 13 Environmental Quality Event, industry announced that they 14 were going to be spending $5 billion over the next 15 several years as part of the refrigerant process, right. 16 So that's a huge chunk of change. All that cost isn't 17 considered when we're talking about the impact on 18 manufacturers. 19 MR. SACHS: Rusty -- 20 MR. THARP: So that's part of it, too. 21 MR. SACHS: -- that's -- whether I personally 22 agree with the White House or not on that particular 23 thrust is irrelevant. But I just want a little bit of 24 pat on the back that that's the reason that we listened 25 on the two-phase to try to wring as much synergy as

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 50 1 possible out of that mandatory revision. 2 So this -- this, in part, is why we're all a 3 little confused by Mike's conversions. But we were just 4 giving that exogenous external force. We really were 5 trying to get the most bang for the buck for you guys on 6 that. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Karim. 8 MR. AMRANE: Karim with AHRI. I guess a 9 question for Mike: Can you run the scenarios today? 10 MR. RIVEST: Yes, yes. 11 MR. AMRANE: I think it would be good to know. 12 MR. RIVEST: Right. If you provide me 13 assumptions -- revised inputs, we'll run, you know, 14 sensitivities. Don't feel compelled to -- don't be 15 reluctant to ask for a scenario because it locks you into 16 the answer. I mean, this is exploring the bounds here, I 17 think. And -- 18 MR. deLASKI: What I'm hearing and I take 19 Rusty's point to heart which is that there's a huge 20 commitment to industry with the refrigerant side if you 21 want to do the efficiency investment at the same time. 22 And what the increment is of that number, it almost 23 doesn't matter; right? Because the point is that you 24 want to do them at the same time. 25 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey again. And what does

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 51 1 matter to me, because I haven't been able to keep it all 2 in my mind is, what was the total of the capital in 3 product conversion costs that you calculated, Mike? How 4 does that compare with this commitment on refrigerant 5 conversions? I mean, are they roughly the same size? 6 MR. RIVEST: No, we can't compare the industry's 7 32 billion. And this is where we're modeling 8 1.3 billion. So we're talking about a dollar per dollar. 9 So for this industry we'd be talking of, if it's a dollar 10 per dollar, it would be 1.3 billion for this industry 11 alone if that ratios hold. 12 MR. SACHS: I'm sorry -- 13 MR. RIVEST: If the numbers hold. Looking at 14 the census and manufacturers, the refrigeration industry 15 is a $32 billion industry revenue-wise, and you mentioned 16 a investment of $32 billion? $5 billion. Okay. So 5 17 for 32. 18 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp from Goodman. I think 19 that includes chemical manufacturers, refrigerant 20 manufacturers. 21 MR. RIVEST: Oh, I see. So the whole supply 22 chain? 23 MR. THARP: So it's not just equipment 24 manufacturers. 25 MR. RIVEST: But we're not modeling the whole

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 52 1 $32 billion industry here, we're modeling a subset of 2 that. 3 MR. SACHS: But somewhere in the GRIM, I assume, 4 you figured the amount of conversion costs that would be 5 required and from Rusty, doing my own adjustment, I'm 6 getting a sense that there's somewhere in the range of 1 7 to $3 billion for this -- for RTU refrigerant. 8 MR. RIVEST: Oh, no, no, no. 9 MR. SACHS: Maybe less than that. 10 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 11 MR. SACHS: And I'm just trying to get a sense 12 of how the efficiency, per se, investments you're 13 estimating compare with this refrigerant investment so I 14 can get some sense of the amount of synergy. That's all 15 I'm trying to do, round numbers. 16 MR. RIVEST: Well, if you just describe what 17 needs to be done, is it really that different? I mean, 18 it's almost a blank sheet of paper in both cases here. 19 You're going to have to redesign a product and test it 20 and certify it in both cases. So would it be reasonable 21 to say they are equal magnitude as a starting point? No? 22 Why not? 23 MS. MEYERS: This is Karen with Rheem. And I 24 think I would disagree with that assumption. First of 25 all, because there's a lot of unknowns.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 53 1 When you go to a new refrigerant, it will 2 probably have effects downstream more than just upgrading 3 an efficiency level. Maybe Charlie McCrudden, who's not 4 in here, would want to speak to that point. So I think 5 there's a lot of unknowns. 6 There's also going to be a huge change in the 7 whole handling of the equipment with different 8 refrigerants. It's going to be using a new compressor 9 designs that we've not ever experienced before. New heat 10 exchanger technology that we've never done before, nor 11 have we manufactured it before. So all those new fan 12 designs, coil designs and stuff are likely -- don't know 13 for sure -- but pretty educated guess that it's going to 14 be way different than what we do today, which will mean 15 different manufacturing processes. 16 And then just the whole downstream effects, I 17 think are going to be pretty significant. And as are the 18 replacement costs, et cetera, which is, I know outside of 19 this, but -- so I think it's a completely new ballgame. 20 It was when -- in a much smaller degree when you 21 went from an R-22 product to a 14-A product, completely 22 new componentry, fin designs, coil designs, et cetera. 23 So I'm basing these comments on that, which is not going 24 to be near the order of magnitude as this is. 25 MR. RIVEST: Okay. So let me make another

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 54 1 controversial statement here to get the reaction. Let me 2 make another controversial statement to get a reaction 3 here. 4 If the timing was perfect, would efficiency 5 improvements from a product development point of view be 6 costless? Because, well -- 7 MS. MEYERS: Say that again? 8 MR. RIVEST: If the timing was perfect, right, 9 would the efficiency related redesign be folded into the 10 refrigerant redesign and therefore, the incremental cost 11 associated with meeting the standard be zero? 12 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with Goodman. 13 Definitely not. 14 MR. RIVEST: Okay. All right. 15 MR. THARP: Absolutely not. Next. 16 MR. RIVEST: All right. I like to know the 17 bounds. Could you expand on that, though? 18 I mean, so right now I've got the other extreme; 19 right? I've got the extreme that says all of the costs 20 of the efficiency are going -- are being baked into this 21 standard. And no -- no awareness of the EPA rules, which 22 might be reasonable for a '19, but probably not for '24. 23 So that's why I'm trying to get a middle ground here. 24 MR. deLASKI: Mike, I think that is reasonable. 25 I mean, qualitatively, it's the reason why we're looking

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 55 1 at the later date and getting the number for it is, I'm 2 sure, difficult to do pretty much because you don't know 3 what the refrigerant rule is yet. 4 So there's a lot of uncertainty, but it strikes 5 me that that's the reason that we're talking about a 6 two-phase proposal. That's why we've agreed to it, the 7 structure. 8 MR. THARP: Rusty Tharp with -- 9 MR. deLASKI: To reduce manufacturer impacts, to 10 mitigate them, and your analysis shows the opposite 11 effect. So apparently it's flawed, and you're looking 12 for why to help you model it. 13 MR. RIVEST: That's why, if nothing else, I'd 14 like to model 50/50 and see what it does to the results 15 and, you know, people don't have to agree with anything. 16 But see what -- 17 MR. deLASKI: 50/50, what do you mean 50/50? 18 MR. RIVEST: I would reduce -- I would take half 19 of the 26 million a year. Right now, in the model I'm 20 projecting $23 million a year on R&D in those years, '19 21 through '24, for example. And I'm projecting 24 -- 22 $26 million a year in those same years for new capital to 23 replace capital that's being depreciated. 24 I'd like to take half of those dollars and put 25 them against to reduce the capital expenditures and the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 56 1 R&D expenditures associated with the standards to capture 2 some synergies there. Just to start with that, see how 3 sensitive the results are to that assumption. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: I don't think there's any harm in 5 running it; right? Take a look at it. 6 MR. RIVEST: And I can tell you, I've been 7 through this process with other rules, and we did that. 8 MR. deLASKI: Right. It's not the first time 9 we've done it here. 10 MR. RIVEST: No. 11 MR. deLASKI: We've discussed before, its been 12 done in other dockets for similar reasons. 13 MR. RIVEST: For similar reasons, and we were 14 coming up with the same, "Hey, this makes no sense." 15 Because -- it wasn't you at the time, this goes back a 16 long time. So this was -- the one I remember most 17 vividly was clothes washers for the two-tier, supposedly 18 vertical, horizontal. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me get Louis and Dave. A 20 while ago you wanted -- Okay. Louis? 21 MR. STARR: This is Louis with NEEA. So I have 22 a question, I guess with the manufacturers I'm wondering 23 are, do you know while in 2024 as a company what kind of 24 IEER levels you're designing for? And then -- I mean, 25 I'm assuming the answer is yes, but maybe not.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 57 1 And then the other question is: Are the 2 groupings of the TSL levels representative of the 3 technologies that you design around? I know they chose 4 those levels, but are they -- you know, are they 5 reflective to the IEER -- are you designing to the IEER 6 level or are you designing to technologies that get you 7 there and do you know them that far out? I mean, you're 8 making these decisions somehow and I'm trying to figure 9 out how those are being made. 10 MR. WINNINGHAM: Louis, I would say the outcome 11 of this is going to have a huge impact into those things. 12 We could have a plan of what we think we're going to 13 design to, but these negotiations in this action will 14 have a -- it's a direct relationship. 15 I don't think any of us could sit here and say, 16 "In 2024, here's what we're going to be designing for at 17 the levels above federal minimums," because the outcome 18 of this will have a direct impact on that. 19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I have a 20 question stimulated by Karen's comments. But it's a 21 question really, I think, for Sami. 22 A quick question to Dr. Google suggested that 23 the A2Ls will be using roughly the same POE lubricants 24 that we're using today. And I'm hearing some heads -- 25 seeing some heads shaking, that roughly the same that the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 58 1 410-As we're using; is that not true? 2 MR. ZENDAH: Sami Zendah. That's not true. 3 There are oils, we're working on them now, but it's not 4 the same. It's not going to be the same. We came to 5 that conclusion. 6 And by the way, a refrigerant does not mean 7 you're going to get a performance improvement from them 8 going forward. So that's also debatable. There are some 9 that takes you backwards, some will improve, it depends 10 what this industry's going to select, going forward. 11 We're going to be impacted quite a bit by this, as well. 12 MR. SACHS: That's why I asked you, and just 13 while the record is running -- 14 MR. ZENDAH: Sure. 15 MR. SACHS: -- in my own thinking, I have not 16 assumed that the A2Ls would lead to an efficiency 17 improvement. 18 MR. ZENDAH: That's correct. So the oil 19 situation could be manageable, I mean, as long -- as soon 20 as we get into some idea where we're going to end up. So 21 there would be some oils -- right now we're dealing with 22 some major issues like discharge temperatures are going, 23 we need to bring -- DLTs, so discharge lane temperatures 24 of the compressors. You've got to manage that, 25 especially with R-32 which everybody thinks that is the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 59 1 one, but we don't know that yet. 2 So there's several options, I mean, there's -- 3 again, refrigerants and oils and testing. So that's why 4 I'm here. I'm trying to figure out where we're going in 5 2024 and what doubles -- 6 MR. SACHS: Much appreciated and that's very 7 helpful and I think I saw more unanimity among the 8 shaking heads than I've seen in this room. 9 (Laughing.) 10 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me ask the group here, did 11 you all want to take a brief break or do you want to keep 12 rolling? 13 Now, Chris has some numbers as well that I 14 believe that he's going to be presenting. But let's go 15 ahead -- 10 minutes? So let's start back up here at 16 11:00 o'clock, then. Thanks. 17 (Recess taken.) 18 MR. RAMIREZ: Okay. I just want to take care of 19 a couple of quick housekeeping issues before we move on. 20 Brenda has notified us that they're having some 21 special event here tomorrow and getting in may be a bit 22 of a logistical -- 23 MS. HOFFMAN: Nightmare. 24 MR. RAMIREZ: I was trying to find -- 25 MS. HOFFMAN: Challenge.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 60 1 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, challenge. Thank you. I was 2 trying to find something a little less harsh. 3 And so what we're going to need to do is, you 4 have two entrances coming into this building. You have 5 the one where you come in through the front, if you take 6 a taxi that's usually where they drop you off. But on 7 the back end there's another one, so if you walk around 8 the building, there's another entrance right there. So 9 as you're coming in normally, you see folks coming in 10 from both sides, it's on that back end where you have to 11 enter. 12 And there's a little kiosk there when you come 13 in, you'll see two young ladies sitting helping people 14 with their passes. That's where Brenda's going to be at 15 to help you. It's suggested that you come in between 16 7:00 and 7:15 to avoid some of the crowds and some of 17 what may be going on here tomorrow. It's a suggestion, 18 so if -- 19 MS. MEYERS: The start time is at 8:00 tomorrow. 20 MR. RAMIREZ: So if we're rolling at 8:00 21 tomorrow, I guess we -- well, it's up to you all if you 22 want to give a little extra time in case somebody gets 23 held up. 24 MR. deLASKI: So you mean just the normal 25 handprint, the doors that are closer to --

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 61 1 FEMALE SPEAKER: Where you get to stick your 2 laptop, your -- 3 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, it suggests that you enter 4 through that door. So maybe go through the outside and 5 come in through that door because it sounds like that 6 front lobby area is going to be jammed up. 7 MS. MEYERS: Would it be better to move the 8 location? 9 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, what was that, Karen? 10 MS. MEYERS: Would it be better to move the 11 location? 12 MR. RAMIREZ: Where to? We could discuss that 13 before the end of the day. 14 MS. MEYERS: Or even L'Enfant. I mean, I 15 hate -- I don't like that conference room, but, you know, 16 just a suggestion. 17 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, so we'll wait for John to 18 come in to talk about that to see if there's any 19 availability over there or not. And Brenda's looking 20 like, what the heck are you just doing to me? 21 (Simultaneous speaking.) 22 All right. Yeah, counsel was just telling us 23 that the locations of these announcements for the public 24 are announced here for the federal -- in the Federal 25 Register so we probably have to keep it here because we

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 62 1 wouldn't be able to change that announcement quick 2 enough. 3 MR. STAS: If we weren't so last minute, you 4 know, but it's kind of last minute. 5 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. So we're just going to hit 6 the deal with the entry issues. So again, it's a 7 suggestion to avoid some of the craziness that you get in 8 between 7:00 and 7:15, suggestion. What you do with 9 that's up to you. 10 FEMALE SPEAKER: Do you want to know when it 11 ends or -- 12 MR. RAMIREZ: So Brenda, do you know how much 13 time that craziness is going to be going -- 14 FEMALE SPEAKER: It starts 8:30, but with the 15 security and all, you know, all we have to do to get 16 ready for what's going on (inaudible). 17 MR. RAMIREZ: So do you think that if we started 18 at 9:00 o'clock tomorrow that we would bypass that? 19 FEMALE SPEAKER: There have been made flights to 20 be here earlier soon (inaudible) get up early, helping 21 out here just a little -- yeah. 22 FEMALE SPEAKER: And Charlie was -- was your 23 question when the meeting ends? And the meeting ends at 24 4:00 tomorrow. 25 MR. McCRUDDEN: No, my question --

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 63 1 FEMALE SPEAKER: What, was it 3:00? 2 MR. McCRUDDEN: Yeah, we're 3:00 on the second 3 day. 4 MS. MEYERS: Okay. 3:00, yeah. 5 MR. McCRUDDEN: My question was what time the 6 ceremony ends. Because for me, it might be easier to 7 listen in on the phone and even if it is to just hang out 8 in the courtyard to participate that way just -- for me 9 personally, I can't get here that early, just -- I've got 10 family drop-off issues to deal with. So we can avoid the 11 hassle, but still participate. 12 FEMALE SPEAKER: I don't think the ceremony is 13 going to be that long, it's just all of our preparation 14 and that's what kind of delays stuff, so -- 15 MR. RAMIREZ: So we can finalize that later 16 today if we need to. All right. 17 I'm sorry, yeah, go ahead, Charlie. 18 MR. McCRUDDEN: So this is Charlie with ACCA and 19 before we get started, I just want to make one comment. 20 I had to be away for the last discussion and I think 21 someone made a reference to me or at least to the 22 contractors viewpoint on some things. 23 And what I wanted to say is we're talking about 24 a lot of sort of intangible issues here. And one thing 25 that I would have said if I was here is that, you know,

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 64 1 when we change standard levels and we increase them in 2 certain ways, it does have an impact downstream on 3 contractors. 4 And sometimes I think we may forget that, you 5 know, the manufacturers do produce this equipment, but 6 they're not actually the ones selling it, per se. So a 7 lot of contractors have a hard time selling equipment 8 when it's at a higher standard. And it's hard to capture 9 that, and I know some of the modeling does look at it. 10 But you know, this is some as we're sort of trying, you 11 know, to reduce the delta or find something in between, I 12 think we should remember that, you know, when the 13 standards are increased to a certain level -- and I don't 14 know what that is because I think it would be hard to 15 model -- it does make it more difficult to sell to the 16 end user -- to the customer. And unfortunately, there is 17 no national association of building owners about to buy, 18 you know, a new piece of commercial HVAC equipment. 19 Had there been one of those groups, I think 20 their membership would be hard to build. But those folks 21 I think need to be represented in some ways, we're the 22 closest ones to them. So as we move forward, let's 23 remember that we can lose potential energy savings when 24 people find it harder to take it up. So thanks. 25 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Thank you.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 65 1 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And I would just 2 like to salute ACCA, Charlie's organization, for its at 3 least decade-long work to help contractors with the value 4 proposition and with differentiating the best contractors 5 from those who are content to deal purely in the 6 commodity world, and an awful lot of work has gone into 7 that, and thank you. 8 MR. McCRUDDEN: And in response, I'll say thank 9 you, Harvey, because you're one of our biggest advocates 10 out there. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Now, Chris, you have 12 stuff -- you have some numbers you'd like to review with 13 us? 14 MR. LAU: Hi, this is Chris Lau from Navigant. 15 So we've heard some discussion, both at the last 16 negotiation and earlier this morning about the employment 17 numbers that are published in the NOPR notice last fall. 18 So I wanted to walk through some of the -- well, 19 I guess I wanted to walk through some revised numbers in 20 that we're trying to -- we're wrestling with this issue 21 of what industry employment -- what would be reflective 22 of direct employment in the -- what are we calling it? 23 CUAC and -- in the CUAC rule -- CUAC rule. 24 And so really a lot of this is driven off of 25 data from the annual survey of manufacturers, which the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 66 1 U.S. Census publishes. And the last one was run in 2013, 2 so we based the content off of the industry code 333415, 3 which is air conditioning and warm air heating equipment 4 and commercial industrial refrigeration equipment. 5 And so we go through that data, that industry 6 has revenues of roughly $31 billion and they publish the 7 direct labor percentage, their direct labor costs, and 8 it's roughly 8 percent of revenue. And the figures also 9 indicate an average production worker wage of roughly 37 10 to $38,000 per year. And so these are the figures that 11 drive our analysis. 12 So if we take these figures and apply it to the 13 shipment values, the MPC values, and the markups, what we 14 get is, you know, roughly we have $1.2 million revenue in 15 the GRIM from 268,000 units per year. We take 8 percent 16 of that it's about, $96 million, and if we divide 17 96 million by $37.7 per year, we get about 2,500 18 production workers for the industry. 19 Now, I think that is still lower than what some 20 of the folks in the room have indicated in the past. And 21 so what I'd say is that one thing to keep in mind is what 22 we're modeling here in that engineering analysis is 23 essentially the core product, right. There are no 24 accessories, no add-ons, there is no replacement parts in 25 the shipments model.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 67 1 So I think that may be accounting for some of 2 the difference between the figure that folks have in 3 their head which they haven't actually shared. And 4 what's presented here, that 2.5, you know, 2,500 5 production workers. I think it may be worthwhile if 6 folks are uncomfortable with this 2,500 numbers talk 7 about what may be driving some of that difference. 8 Because at that point, this is the data we have. And as 9 far as we know, this is reflective of the industry now. 10 We're only talking about 1.2 billion out of the 11 $31 billion group that is the next code. So maybe this 12 is a more labor-intensive product line than the average. 13 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham with 14 Allied. First of all, going back to the NOPR, the NOPR 15 estimated 1,085. And now we're kind of reestimating at 16 2.5K. And I think we would agree with your assessment 17 that we think that is still significantly low. I think 18 the things that you alluded to are probably the fringe, 19 it's not the core of what our direct production workers 20 do. 21 I mean, I'm looking over at Jill and we were 22 just kind of throwing out some information. I mean, we 23 have a plant that's probably not quite, but close to half 24 of that number, and we're one manufacturer. 25 MR. RAMIREZ: And it's all commercial AC, every

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 68 1 24 -- I mean, how many hours -- 2 MR. WINNINGHAM: I asked them to parch that out, 3 yeah. 4 MR. RAMIREZ: So they bill completely to that 5 one product? 6 MR. WINNINGHAM: I have one plant in Stuttgart, 7 Arkansas, and they have some products that build below 8 65K, but 80 percent of what they do is this stuff. 9 MS. HOOTMAN: So Jill Hootman from Trane. I 10 have four plants that build this product, one of which is 11 all dedicated to this product. And that one alone is 872 12 directly in commercial air conditioning. There's another 13 hundred for commercial warm air furnace or 102 or 101, 14 I'll have to look at my numbers again, but very close to 15 100. And there were three additional plants, which are 16 smaller as far as the portion that is directly to this 17 work. So I mean, I can easily come up with 1,200 likely. 18 MR. deLASKI: Just a question for clarification, 19 this is Andrew. So 1,200 in the 65. What's the 20 remainder, 760? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Right. 22 MR. deLASKI: You're not counting -- 23 MS. HOOTMAN: 760,000, right. 24 MR. deLASKI: Not counting above that? 25 MS. HOOTMAN: Right.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 69 1 MR. deLASKI: But those are coming out of the 2 same plant, though, I would think the larger ones that 3 are. 4 MS. HOOTMAN: We build one product we build in 5 Clarksville, Tennessee, five through close to 160 tons. 6 MR. deLASKI: Okay. 7 MS. HOOTMAN: Now, I took out the direct workers 8 from 63 tons to 160. I took out that. 9 MR. deLASKI: To get to that 7 whatever? 872 10 number? 11 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, 872 number took out that. 12 There's actually additional workers in the plant. 13 MR. deLASKI: And what you're doing, if I 14 understand right, is you're -- you're also -- you're 15 trying out with an estimate that sort of subtracts out 16 additional value in that equipment that somehow not 17 directly related. I'm trying to restate back to you 18 what -- 19 MS. HOOTMAN: I also took out management, right. 20 MR. LAU: Right, so -- 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Even though it's floor management, 22 but it's management. I took that out. 23 MR. LAU: I mean, the way we would term it, I 24 think what we call production workers are -- all assembly 25 workers up to the line supervisor, plus, you know, the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 70 1 focus touch the product. So a truck driver doesn't 2 actually assemble the, but he's touching it, so we 3 include those heads. 4 And so what I'm hearing -- you know, we thought 5 perhaps, you know, recognize accessories, add-ons, 6 whatever, wouldn't double with this number, but that's 7 some piece of it. 8 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other questions or comments 9 for Chris? 10 MR. RIVEST: Bill, this is Mike Rivest. I've 11 been doing these rooms for 20 years now, and it seems 12 that whether I'm talking about transformers or AC 13 equipment or white goods, direct labor is about 8 to 14 9 percent of your sale -- your revenue. 15 Now, a lot of productions been moved to 16 Mexico -- 17 MS. HOOTMAN: Right, I took out my Mexico. 18 MR. RIVEST: But that labor rate, maybe a year, 19 36,000 high and that's -- you're dividing everything by 20 that; right? 21 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 22 MR. RIVEST: So it ain't pretty. 23 MS. MEYERS: Mike, I didn't look at it as part 24 of percentages or revenue. 25 MR. RIVEST: Right.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 71 1 MS. MEYERS: This was just literally going to -- 2 MR. RIVEST: And that's about what it is, 8 to 3 9 percent. Now, it is -- that wage is really big 4 assumption and we don't -- we don't have it broken down 5 if it's domestic. 6 MS. HOOTMAN: Pretty light. 7 MR. RIVEST: 37 for the U.S. is like, but as a 8 mix between your -- of your whole -- 9 MS. HOOTMAN: But I took out Mexico because I 10 figured this was U.S. workers. So I took out Mexico, 11 that's -- I didn't have Mexico in it. 12 MR. RIVEST: Well, maybe industry can provide 13 your bottom down, your bottoms up estimate of a lower 14 force our top-downs doesn't seem to agree with your 15 reality, so -- 16 MR. RAMIREZ: I understand the concern with the 17 impact that it has on the workers. As far as the numbers 18 that we're looking at to negotiate, what is it that 19 you're trying to clarify here in order to finalize a 20 number? 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: The higher you go in TSLs, the 22 larger the impact on shipments and the bigger the impact 23 to the industry and on jobs. It's -- I mean, it's very 24 simple. When the industry shrinks, people lose jobs. 25 MR. RAMIREZ: So do we need to agree on a

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 72 1 certain number here in order to do that? 2 MR. WINNINGHAM: I think it's just a 3 relationship of that and having a -- a number that is 4 grossly underestimated as far as employment, the total 5 numbers of employment, and the impacts of these standards 6 on those employees is significant, and I don't think it 7 should be underestimated. 8 MR. LAU: So another way to get to that end, 9 we've heard from a few folks in the room. I know there 10 are roughly nine major manufacturers; right? And what 11 we're hearing is domestic employment per manufacturer is 12 somewhere in the 800 to 1,000 range. 13 And so what, you know, just in the back of my 14 head, that on numbers, but what I'm hearing is that 15 industry employees is 8 to 10,000 production workers. 16 And if you include non-production workers, that's 17 probably like another 20 to 50 percent; right? So in 18 some total we're talking about 15,000 people that work on 19 CUAC products. 20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim with AHRI. I guess, 21 what do you want, Mike? I mean, maybe we can give you 22 some numbers if you want. I mean, maybe that is what we 23 can do. 24 MR. RIVEST: If you're willing to sit down, 25 let's do it plan by plan. I mean, I'll add it up. I

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 73 1 looked at the interview notes, I don't have that level of 2 detail. I couldn't do it. 3 MR. deLASKI: So this is Andrew. It strikes me 4 that, you know, I'll accept the stipulation that the 5 numbers are higher than what DOE has said. I don't know 6 they're 15,000 either, I don't know. You just heard from 7 two pretty large manufacturers. I don't know if all nine 8 are the same size as the two that you heard from. So I 9 suspect that somewhere else between those two numbers. 10 Jobs are important, no doubt about it, you know, 11 that's part of what we're talking about here is the 12 impact on, you know, is trying to balance the factors 13 that we've said now several times of the impact on the 14 manufacturers that are shareholders, their workers, and 15 the impact on the nation as a whole for energy savings, 16 economic benefits, and environmental benefits. 17 So that's the balancing act and Dave is rightly 18 pointing out that there's one factor in his estimation 19 that's not -- the number is lower than what it should be. 20 So whether it's 5,000 or 7,000 or 3,000, you know, I 21 don't think that's going to impact -- it's a very 22 important number, but it's not going to -- I think we can 23 continue with our discussions without that impeding us. 24 We're not going to negotiate that level. It's a 25 matter of fact, right, so these guys can give you data

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 74 1 information and help you and hopefully you might even 2 reconcile it. Because I agree with you that it needs 3 to -- you know, there needs to be something more than 4 just, here's what they told me, right. It has to comport 5 with some methodology for how you -- how do you reconcile 6 it with your numbers? So -- 7 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey. And the first thing 8 I want to say is that I've had just -- had jobs disappear 9 around me like my own several times in my life. I'm very 10 sympathetic to this. 11 Second thing is -- through the School of Hard 12 Knocks -- the second thing is, direct production numbers, 13 assembly workers in this industry is a really bad measure 14 because these products are largely assembled in part from 15 things that are bent and shaped and machined in plant, 16 and in part from things that are bought. So they're 17 upstream jobs. And copper, aluminum, metal fabrication, 18 paint, and all sorts of stuff. So there are a lot more 19 jobs. 20 But, even if we assume that there are 25,000 21 jobs, it's a small fraction of one month's change in 22 employment in a dynamic society. So that it's some -- 23 it's very important to me, with my wife as a retiree from 24 manufacturing and my son very actively employed, it's 25 important. But it's, as Andrew says, it's one of the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 75 1 factors. 2 And I don't think we can do our work if we over 3 personalize it with all respect I have for the people who 4 are in those plants. And I visited as many of those that 5 I've been available -- has been possible for me. 6 MR. RAMIREZ: Any other questions or comments 7 for Chris? 8 MS. HOOTMAN: So are we getting -- did we agree? 9 Are we getting numbers? Or I don't quite know where we 10 left. 11 MR. SACHS: Jill, this is Harvey. And I'm not 12 sure that -- 13 MS. HOOTMAN: I was just kind of looking at 14 Karim and Mike. I don't know if we -- 15 MR. SACHS: I would want to ask if I thought 16 that any kind of a number would make a real difference in 17 what we're trying to do. 18 MS. HOOTMAN: Okay. 19 MR. SACHS: And I'm not -- I don't think -- 20 MR. deLASKI: There's two different things here: 21 One is what we need for our negotiation; another is what 22 they need to do for their analysis, for their rule. But 23 he needs a number for his rule, I don't feel we need a 24 number to negotiate today for tomorrow. 25 MR. RAMIREZ: That's kind of what I was getting

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 76 1 at, right. I think the parties understand that there is 2 that correlation there. And I think with that 3 information, that's probably enough for you all to 4 continue your negotiations. 5 MR. deLASKI: And I think Harvey put it very 6 well, I don't want to expand on it, you know. We don't 7 want to sit here and debate the impact of the standard on 8 how many jobs are in the U.S. right. Because we could 9 just go around and around and around and around on that 10 issue, and I just don't think it's going to be a good use 11 of our time, right. 12 MR. CYMBALSKY: This is John from DOE. So 13 absent from this conversation, I think Harvey was getting 14 at it a little bit, but I don't think actually hit the 15 nerve, is that there is the indirect job benefit to the 16 macro-economy in the U.S. and with the NPBs that we're 17 seeing here in the 50 billion, 70 billion range. That 18 money goes somewhere else, and guess where it goes? It 19 goes for people to buy new stuff. 20 It may not be a CUAC, but there's a lot more 21 disposable income floating around for people to purchase 22 other things that the U.S. economy provides in part. So 23 the domestic production of this product is one aspect of 24 the jobs, but there's also the indirect aspect. 25 Not to mitigate the direct employment impacts

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 77 1 that are very important, but it's not the whole picture, 2 and I just wanted to make that point. 3 MR. SACHS: John -- 4 MS. HOOTMAN: And John, those are also in the 5 MIA; right? Or where do they fall? 6 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's a separate analysis, but 7 we do -- we do provide those numbers in the NOPR. 8 MR. SACHS: John, this is Harvey. And I -- I 9 would almost respectfully suggest you rewind that tape 10 because it leads to a lot of other questions like what 11 fractions of those purchases that would have been made 12 but/for the expenditures on CUAC would be of imported 13 goods, domestic goods, domestic services. And it's 14 just -- I -- 15 MR. RAMIREZ: Let me stop you from getting into 16 the weeds here, not to get too far into the weeds. 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: I didn't want to get -- I just 18 wanted to make a 30,000-foot remark about it. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: And I'm pulling you back out. All 20 right? 21 So where do we go from here as far as trying to 22 take a hard look at what are the remaining issues and see 23 what adjustments to make that we can to find some common 24 ground? 25 FEMALE SPEAKER: Are you ready?

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 78 1 MR. RAMIREZ: So what do you all think of having 2 that initial recommendation of having the parties caucus 3 and having the facilitators/mediators joining each of the 4 groups and having a little discussion on how we move 5 forward? 6 (Laughter.) That was the fa-mediation part, 7 facilitating and mediating; right? 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave from Allied. I 9 think from the manufacturers perspective, we need to 10 caucus independently first before there -- now, I'm not 11 ruling that out for later, but we need to -- to caucus 12 independently first. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Not ready for the whip quite yet? 14 Okay. All right, Dan, I'll put it away. 15 So how much time do you all need, then? Where 16 do we go from here? 17 MR. CYMBALSKY: 1:00 o'clock, I'd say. 18 MS. HOFFMAN: So take your lunch. 19 MR. deLASKI: Take lunch, caucus time, come back 20 at 1:00. 21 MR. CYMBALSKY: Don't eat any spicy food or 22 anything that might upset your stomach, maybe -- 23 MR. RAMIREZ: Get some feel-good food, some 24 turkey and gravy, some comfort food. 25 MS. HOFFMAN: The management group is going to

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 79 1 caucus. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: Both sides, yeah, both sides will 3 be caucusing. So 1:00 o'clock and then we'll come back 4 and see how you want to proceed. 5 MS. HOFFMAN: So we'll see everybody here at 6 1:00. We're off the record now. 7 (Lunch recess was taken.) 8 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. We're going to go 9 ahead and get started back up. And I guess for the 10 record, Jill Hootman is with us now and would you give -- 11 MS. ANDERSON: Mary Anderson from the California 12 IOUs. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: Great. Thank you. 14 All right, so we're going to start off, it looks 15 like we have another idea. I assume it's a package idea 16 to try and maybe get something done here. And Andrew, 17 I'll let you -- 18 MR. deLASKI: Thanks. 19 MR. RAMIREZ: -- explain what we're looking at. 20 MR. deLASKI: So I'll come to the front if I 21 can. 22 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah. 23 MR. deLASKI: We thought in the interest of -- 24 can you hand me the mic? Is this mic live? 25 So in the interest of keeping things moving here

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 80 1 and trying to advance the negotiations, because I think 2 as we all said this morning there's a lot of interest in 3 coming to an agreement that results in better outcomes 4 for all parties and on all metrics and on all measures. 5 We talked about some of the different measures 6 by which we look at the costs and benefits of a new 7 standard. 8 We went back and did some thinking and we hear 9 you on -- with respect to TSL-4. Okay? And I think this 10 slide kind of, these numbers everyone's unfamiliar with. 11 There's an obvious inflection point here at 3.5. So to 12 go from 3.5 to 4, big jump. Karen pointed out last time, 13 big jump in energy efficiency from 3.5 to 4. 14 But with that, they jump and efficiency also 15 comes a big jump in manufacturing impacts. And this is 16 shown in the slide we were looking at this morning, slide 17 77 from last time where we also see an inflection point 18 in manufacturer impacts in either scenario with them 19 becoming more -- becoming larger going from TSL-3.5 to 20 TSL-4. 21 So we are prepared to move off of TSL-4 and to 22 come down to a lower level. Okay? So we -- we see that 23 inflection point often when we're looking at new and 24 improved standard, we're looking at cost of energy curve 25 and that inflection point, the point below that point

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 81 1 where the inflection happens is a logical place for a 2 standard to land. 3 So let me just run through the whole package, 4 our revised offer. And I want to emphasize, because 5 we've heard the arguments, you know, we had these last 6 time about looking for a way that results in a win-win 7 for energy savings and also for a better result for 8 manufacturers, and would be the case compared to the 9 NOPR. One that reduces the cost, we at some point had a 10 discussion before lunch, and we feel that we made a 11 number of concessions during the past -- during the 12 course of these talks that will work to reduce the cost 13 for manufacturers to comply with new standards. 14 So so far to date, those concessions include 15 tentatively agreeing to an 81 percent standard for new 16 furnished standards instead of the 82 percent that was 17 initially proposed by DOE. Agreeing to delay that date 18 until the phase 2 date for air conditioners. So in our 19 view, this is a significant gain for industry in terms of 20 being able to align those effective dates and go with a 21 lower efficiency then would have been the case in the 22 NOPR. 23 Secondly, we've agreed to your tier 1, to do an 24 initial standard based on the ASHRAE levels, the copies 25 of the ASHRAE levels for which the investments are not

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 82 1 complete, but largely on track. This is a -- I think a 2 significant concession to look at. Whereas, the proposed 3 rule had a level in 2019 that would have required 4 significant investments by industry to go with that 2018 5 date for an initial tier that is -- that was your offer. 6 We've also agreed to a tier 2 that would be 7 later at a time that will hopefully give you the 8 flexibility to do investments for refrigerants at the 9 same time you that you make your investments for improved 10 efficiency. 11 So we feel like there's been a number of 12 concessions or agreements that are tentatively in place 13 to -- to mitigate the impacts on manufacturers so that 14 when we're getting these large national benefits for 15 economic savings, for energy savings, for environmental 16 emission reductions that they're being accomplished in a 17 way that softens the impact on industry. And I would say 18 that that's why we did these negotiations. That's why 19 we're here. That's why we agreed to come to this 20 process. 21 Ideally, we want to see an outcome that 22 increases energy savings compared to the NOPR. You know, 23 we didn't really embark on this process at the beginning 24 with the notion that, you know, get to the same exact 25 result as you would have got. The idea I came into this

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 83 1 with was, okay. Well, if we can all get around a table, 2 maybe we all could be better off. Industry has lower 3 costs, but we get better energy savings for the country 4 than would otherwise have been the case. 5 So that's what I was looking for coming into 6 this. To get a better result that would have been the 7 case for energy savings than would have been with the 8 NOPR. I think we're -- we're adjusting our sights a bit. 9 Okay? And I'm adjusting our sights to a different 10 framing, which -- which focuses on more on how do we get 11 to an outcome that certainly is no worse than the NOPR. 12 In other words, we want to get savings that get 13 us at least to where we would have been with the proposed 14 rule. So conceptually, what we're saying is that it's 15 still a big win for the environment, it's still a big win 16 for energy savings and for economic benefits, but let's 17 get that win in a way that is more -- that reduces the 18 burden or smooths the path for industry to be able to 19 comply. 20 So that's a significant in my view, and our view 21 as a coalition, it's quite a significant shift to say in 22 terms of this being a win-win in a sense that we're all 23 better off is that we're at least as good off on energy 24 savings in the environment and economic benefits as we 25 would have been under the NOPR in the revised analysis,

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 84 1 of course. So that -- with that, I want to make two 2 other points before I lay out the proposal. 3 One is that the numbers that we're dealing with 4 in this proposed rule are huge in terms of energy 5 savings. And we're focused not -- we are focused on the 6 absolute value of those numbers. So in other words, a 10 7 percent difference on 15 quads is a quad and a half. A 5 8 percent difference is .75 quads. I mean, these -- there 9 are many DOE rules and many of us have sat in rooms 10 together arguing over much smaller numbers. 11 So these are differences that matter to us. A 5 12 percent difference, a 10 percent difference is what this 13 discussion is about. Okay? So we're not going to sort 14 of look at the levels that we're going to propose and 15 say, okay. The percentage differences drive large 16 absolute value in terms of energy savings, economic 17 benefits, and emission reductions. 18 So our revised proposal would be furnaces, as 19 before, taking effect in the year 2022 at 81 percent on 20 EER, or as has been discussed and as I think we got a 21 tentative consensus on that instead of asking it to be a 22 standard value, instead it would be AHRI would commit to 23 continue publishing certified EER values in its directory 24 and work to make those values accessible in a way that 25 are -- is easily useable by utilities, I guess, is the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 85 1 way to put it for their incentive programs. 2 With respect to the test method, we've agreed 3 previously that we would not look for a change in the 4 test method for this docket. But I think as our 5 discussion earlier this morning showed that we continue 6 to have concerns about the test method underrepresenting 7 fan energy use and perhaps other features. 8 So it's our -- our -- we would suggest that the 9 third point -- the third point in our proposal is that -- 10 that there should be a revision to the IEER test method, 11 and it would be used with the next iteration of the 12 standard, but it should be done relatively soon. 13 And the reason to do it relatively soon is so 14 that manufacturers know, well, what's it going to be next 15 time. Because we have been in -- we've heard you loud 16 and clear, you don't want to see the test method revision 17 come late, because then it just -- you want to know what 18 the rules of the road are going to be. And also, I think 19 by getting it done relatively soon, it allows 20 manufacturers to take that revised test method into 21 consideration as they do the redesign for the phase 2 22 standard. 23 Okay. They know what it is, as opposed to you 24 don't know what it's going to be until 2025, that's way 25 too late. So we would suggest that under the terms

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 86 1 sheet, DOE should be required to initiate a rule-making 2 to revise IEER by January 1st of next year and to 3 complete it by January 1st of 2018. Let's get it done 4 relatively quickly -- very quickly. Again, those dates 5 aren't written in stone, but it gives you a sense of our 6 sense that we should do it sooner rather than later. 7 Okay? 8 On levels, as before, we accept your level 1, 9 your phase 1 level. And for phase 2, we will come to the 10 3.5. Okay? 3.5 for small and medium, and 3 for large. 11 3 -- there is no 3.5 for large, same. The 3.5 for small 12 and medium and 3 for very large. We had LBNL run the 13 numbers. 14 MR. CYMBALSKY: What year was that? I'm sorry. 15 MR. deLASKI: 2022. So no movement of dates, 16 but the same date as proposed as last time. We asked 17 Greg to run the numbers for us. The results of that is 18 on my other pad of paper and Greg, maybe you can just 19 make sure I get it -- make sure I read it off right 20 compared to what you gave me, please. 21 15.4 quads of net energy savings, $51.7 billion 22 net present value savings, 3 percent discount rate, $15.7 23 billion at 7 percent discount rate. The NOPR was 16.3 24 quads, so this is less savings than the NOPR per the DOE 25 analysis.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 87 1 Now, this goes to the issue that we discussed a 2 little bit this morning, which is that we think that this 3 level, this is that level 3.5, we think that the analysis 4 understates the savings, the 3.5. And this is that 5 little blip that we've discussed that at 3.5, and I'll 6 just tell you another scenario that Greg ran for us. 7 Another scenario that Greg ran for us is, in the 8 same year is go to a lower standard for the large -- for 9 the small. Go to TSL-3.0 for the small, and savings 10 actually go up, right. Again, it's an artifact of the 11 analysis. 12 So we think that if you do 3.5 in the year 2022, 13 that actually will, even though the analysis kicks out 14 savings that are lower than the NOPR and practices likely 15 to deliver savings that are quite similar to the NOPR. 16 Again, that's for objective. How do we get to an outcome 17 that gives -- we started this with 2019 as a date on the 18 NOPR. We've had to put in a lot of flexibility by moving 19 things out later. But how do we -- if we're going to go 20 later, then we have to go up a tick in efficiency to get 21 to the same savings for the -- for the -- for these two 22 classes. Compare it to the NOPRs here, up a tick in 23 efficiency for the small and the large. It would be very 24 much the same and we would get to that combined with tier 25 1 would get us to an outcome in terms of quads that are

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 88 1 quite similar to the NOPR. 2 You want to ask something, Marshall? And I 3 refer to my team in terms of if they want to embellish, 4 too. 5 MR. HUNT: Hi, this is Marshall Hunt, California 6 IOUs. As everyone knows, I'm very interested in EER and 7 I appreciate working with Karim and others at AHRI about 8 continuing to publish. 9 One -- another reason that I see for our 10 counteroffer at 3.5 is that when I look at the few 11 examples that we've given, that gives us a much better 12 chance of not backsliding on EER. And since we can't 13 have two variables as we get to the 3.5, at least as I 14 see things, it's much more likely that we'll have a 15 decent EER. Thank you. 16 MR. deLASKI: Harvey or Louis or Meg -- Meg's on 17 the phone -- you all want to add anything in before we 18 take any questions? 19 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and I look forward 20 to hearing questions which might drive to a level of 21 detail I'm more comfortable with. 22 MR. deLASKI: Can I answer any questions about 23 the proposal? 24 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe. Andrew, could you 25 explain your position on the test procedure? It sounded

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 89 1 to me like you were saying that get the test -- an IEER 2 revised by January of '18, and that the tier 3 value the 3 tier 3.5 value would be the new test procedure? 4 MR. deLASKI: That would be nice. 5 MR. McCABE: But that's not what you were 6 saying? 7 MR. deLASKI: No, not what I meant to say. So 8 the intent of -- you know, as I -- so our intent is that 9 the test method, the values that we're negotiating in 10 this standard proceeding are using the current test 11 method. 12 MR. WINNINGHAM: Could you go over those dates 13 again, Andrew, in regard to the test procedure? 14 MR. deLASKI: So our straw man, again, these are 15 not dates that were -- we're rooted to, but to get 16 started by next January and to complete it within two 17 years, maybe a little more time is needed. 18 You know, the thought here is that I kind of -- 19 what I would like is that we end up with a world in which 20 you know what the new -- what the next iteration top-down 21 is going to be as soon as it's practical. 22 MR. WINNINGHAM: I think conceptually, I think 23 that's got some merit. But from a DOE perspective, I 24 think that has some drawbacks because once it becomes a 25 federally adopted test procedure, it goes into effect 180

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 90 1 days after it's adopted. 2 MR. deLASKI: Well, let me tell you about my 3 experience, and then John or Eric can comment. So we've 4 been through a similar experience with other products, 5 dryers is an example, clothes washers is an example from 6 the mid-nineties where DOE adopts it, keeps -- has two -- 7 so right now in dryers you have D-2, you have D-1 and 8 D-2, and they're both live. 9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. In other discussions 10 that hasn't been presented, but that's okay. 11 MR. deLASKI: And then the one -- and then the 12 D-2 becomes -- or the new test method becomes -- they're 13 both in effect, but you certify using one or the other. 14 John or Ashley, you want to? They're just 15 nodding their head basically, so -- and in part, you 16 know, I think this is useful in terms of, again, just -- 17 so you know the rules of the road, the earlier the 18 better. 19 MR. WHITWELL: Andrew, can you hear me? This is 20 Bob. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, we can hear you. 22 MR. WHITWELL: Okay. So -- 23 MR. deLASKI: We can't hear you now, Bob, if you 24 were still talking -- 25 FEMALE SPEAKER: Is he muted?

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 91 1 MR. RAMIREZ: So John, you had something? 2 MR. CYMBALSKY: No, I was just going to say, his 3 plane had mechanical failure, now it's spreading like a 4 virus to his telecommunications device. All right, Bob, 5 we'll try to get you as soon as we can. 6 MR. deLASKI: I'm going to sit down. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: What other discussion or questions 8 around this? 9 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave with Allied. I 10 guess, first of all, Andrew, thank you across the board 11 for bringing that forward. You know, we've had some 12 discussions and there are significant issues here that we 13 need to discuss as, you know, we represent, you know, our 14 organizations. But there are organizations here outside 15 that are AHRI members who have -- who are frankly not so 16 happy with what we brought to the table last time. So we 17 need to make sure that our entire constituency here that 18 we're trying to represent is onboard with whatever that 19 we are moving towards. 20 We are here to try to reach a consensus. And we 21 firmly believe that, you know, whatever the outcome of 22 the process we're trying to -- to make that happen. But 23 I think that -- that we probably need to discuss this 24 internally with the manufacturers before we can 25 reasonably respond.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 92 1 Rusty, I don't know if you have any further 2 thoughts around that. 3 MR. THARP: You like putting me on the spot, 4 don't you, Dave? 5 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes, sir. 6 MR. THARP: I will echo the appreciation to the 7 advocate community for the offer. And I do think I 8 see -- starting to see the light at the end of the 9 tunnel, and just leave it that -- I think I need to go 10 back and caucus. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: How much time were you thinking on 12 that? How much time do you think you would need to meet 13 with your group? 14 When you say "a long time," are we talking about 15 coming back in the morning or are you talking about just 16 an extended break? 17 MR. deLASKI: Extend break for Karen. Extended 18 break. 19 MALE SPEAKER: Karen, last time we got you a 20 bottle of water lasting (simultaneous speaking). 21 MS. MEYERS: I had a lot of businesspeople who 22 were not happy. That's all I'm going to say. I 23 appreciate the offer, but I'm trying the best I can to 24 (inaudible). I can just tell you -- 25 MR. ZENDAH: This is Sami Zendah with Emerson.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 93 1 So I work with a lot of OEMs, that's what I've been doing 2 the last few weeks, the ones that are not in this room. 3 And I present this stuff to them as a, you know, a 4 discussion point. A lot of them are struggling, I mean 5 literally struggling. They're not here, I don't know why 6 they're not. You can argue, you know, they're not 7 participating. But all I know is they -- they're right 8 now worrying about level 1 and how to get to it by '18, 9 let alone these higher levels. 10 So I just thought -- let this group know, I 11 mean, there's -- these are small to medium size type 12 OEMs, they don't have equipment. I can show you this 13 work I've done on the side. I mean, it's not -- I don't 14 think it should be shared for the whole room because 15 these guys, they compete against each other. And like 16 you said several times, I mean -- I think we're picking 17 on OEM designs with these analysis that the numbers are 18 all over the place, and I can see that because I know 19 what's in every single design. 20 So anyway, that's important. You've got to take 21 that into account. These guys, yes, they have equipment, 22 and the EL-3, 4, and so forth. Some don't even have 23 EL-1. So I just want to -- I want you to know that. 24 MR. SACHS: Sami, this is Harvey. And one of 25 the things I've been thinking a lot about the last couple

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 94 1 of days is that each of us is here not for his own 2 organization, but for the -- his industry as it were. 3 And so I appreciate your remarks and I -- I certainly 4 took Rusty's and Dave's in exactly the same sense of 5 needing to meet the needs of all the manufacturers. And 6 I'm sure you'll understand that we have not had complete, 7 instant unanimity on our side of the table, either. 8 So we're all trying to be representative and 9 we'll keep on doing it. Now, I would like to just offer 10 without having to talk to our caucus that if it is 11 helpful to explore any of these details, get 12 clarification or anything else before we break for 13 caucus, I'm volunteering Andrew. 14 MR. deLASKI: Sure. I guess I was making -- 15 again, I would suggest that moving to a caucus and give 16 you guys a chance to talk since this is a new proposal. 17 We're trying to advance things here, and I would 18 really urge you to take to heart my framing. Okay? 19 Which is we're trying to, you know, get to the savings 20 equal to the NOPR. And understand our position that I 21 asked you to take a look -- our position is that, you 22 know, we didn't come into this to take a haircut on 23 national energy savings for the nation. 24 And I know in this -- this is going to have 25 impacts. We're trying to come to an approach that

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 95 1 reduces this impact, but I know it doesn't eliminate 2 them. And it's not -- and I think by coming in with 3 these, you have to consider all these stay cold whether 4 here or not here, have to consider what's going to happen 5 in the alternative; right? 6 So we're trying to introduce as much 7 flexibility as we can. And Karen and I, you know, we've 8 been through a lot of dockets. And you know the numbers 9 here are really big, and they're going to drive decision 10 making and are driving our calculus is in terms of what 11 we -- so that's where I come back to this, you know, 10 12 percent on this one's big. 13 And I understand that, you know, you have your 14 work cut out for you as you just said. You know, we all 15 have to consider what's going to happen in the 16 alternative. So we're trying to come up with some 17 pathways that -- that hopefully can work. So think about 18 the framing of, is there -- you know, if you have other 19 thoughts on how to get to that result that work better, 20 we're all ears. We're all ears. Okay? So this is -- 21 MR. ZENDAH: This is Sami again. I agree with 22 you, it's just a balance between all of these things. I 23 just -- I can tell you've been doing this for years. 24 This is my first one, so I'm learning -- when I see the 25 market to be shrunk by 25 percent, now I'm like, what's

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 96 1 going to happen to us? I mean, not just these OEMs; 2 right? And our suppliers, so this is bigger than -- we 3 haven't looked at how many other people are going to lose 4 their jobs beyond what -- 5 MR. deLASKI: I really would just assume not -- 6 I mean, I don't believe those numbers. Do we have to go 7 through it again? I don't think it's a useful use of our 8 time at this point to debate the things that we've 9 already debated over the past three or four meetings. 10 MR. ZENDAH: It is still a valid point, though. 11 It is valid, but that's it. I'll leave it at that. 12 MS. HOOTMAN: Well, wait a minute, Andrew, 13 though. 14 MR. deLASKI: There's a range of projected 15 impacts. And I accept that there's an -- I accept 16 there's an impact, it's a range. You know, I don't know 17 the numbers. If you accept, there are two incident 18 scenarios, right, and we've been focusing on the worst 19 case scenario. 20 MS. HOOTMAN: I don't know that I would say it's 21 worst case. I think that they're on the low side. I 22 think we've been trying to say that they're on the low 23 side and for the sake of negotiation, we're not going to 24 necessarily argue those, but they're on the low side when 25 it comes to the MIA.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 97 1 Sorry, Jill Hootman at Trane. And the fact is, 2 I'm on public record here, and if we were to accept that 3 I'm going to go back to my company and accept the fact 4 that it's going to contract by 30 percent? I'm fired. 5 I'm sorry, I just can't -- I cannot justify that to a 6 CEO, say that I signed up for that. 7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Andrew, you know, you said -- 8 this is Dave at Allied. It's a worst case situation, but 9 when we have a 25, 30, to 40 percent contraction and 10 we're going to maintain operating profit, that doesn't 11 work. That doesn't work in the business world. 12 You know, and just as you said, you're not here 13 to take a haircut compared to the DOE NOPR. The comments 14 that we've filed would suggest that we weren't even close 15 in the DOE NOPR. So we're coming at it from two 16 completely different perspectives. We're not coming here 17 to take a haircut because we don't think TSL-3 was 18 justified. 19 MR. deLASKI: Yeah, I hear you. And I'm telling 20 you, at this point we've given our furnace dates, we've 21 given on air conditioner dates, we've given on furnace 22 stringency. We've taken into consideration your desire 23 to align dates with a likely refrigerant change. Help me 24 out here, you know? 25 MR. WINNINGHAM: We've probably -- in regard to

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 98 1 the energy use in the analysis, we have made a concession 2 to include ventilation air, which is driving everything 3 that you're talking about. If we were to go back and 4 drive this to the ventilation air as it was done in the 5 original NOPR, these numbers would be dramatically 6 smaller than what you see now and -- 7 MR. deLASKI: Would it be more realistic, Dave? 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: I wouldn't -- I'm not arguing 9 that point. 10 MR. deLASKI: What point is it, then? We want 11 to realize what goes on in the real world, isn't that 12 what's important for users? 13 MS. MEYERS: How many by you giving on by energy 14 savings, how many jobs does that cost your company? 15 Because that's where we're at, Andrew. 16 We cannot problegate something that's going to 17 drop our industry. You don't lose a job. I am faced 18 with -- I mean, we have one commercial manufacturing 19 facility, that's it. And if I agree to a standard that's 20 going to drop the industry by that much, you can imagine 21 what that does to the jobs in that facility and to the 22 entire facility itself. 23 So we -- we are -- I work with you a lot, 24 Andrew, and I am really trying to get something, but 25 we've got some work still to do, and I just hope everyone

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 99 1 is willing to continue to put in that effort. Because 2 I've got e-mails from my COO, he's got e-mails from his 3 COO, I know Rusty said he has e-mails from his business 4 leaders. And you have to realize that in this room, it 5 goes beyond the scope of this negotiation. 6 We've got -- we've got things happening on 7 furnaces, we've got things happenings on water heaters, 8 we've got things happening on commercial refrigeration, 9 we have stuff happening on residential air conditioner, 10 and that's all these same companies. 11 So that IMPV is limited, it's much worse than 12 that when you look at it in that broad perspective. My 13 company alone has like 20 rule-makings that DOE's doing 14 right now. And, you know, it gets to the point where 15 everyone -- you know, they say, "Enough is enough." You 16 know, we'll just, you know, this is -- and that's where a 17 lot of us are at. We're not going to quit working on 18 this, I want you to understand that. Work with you a 19 long time, and sometimes it takes us to the 11th hour. 20 But I've got to tell you, we're not there yet. 21 And I just hope you guys are hearing that message. We 22 need to go caucus. We'll come back, but I can tell you 23 right now, I can't agree to this. But I want to keep 24 working with you, and hopefully you will agree to do the 25 same. That's the only thing I -- I'm trying to get

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 100 1 something, but I can't do this. 2 MR. deLASKI: I appreciate that. And I guess, 3 you know, we've -- this was not -- I did not put this out 4 as a take it or leave it. 5 MS. MEYERS: Okay. Good. 6 MR. deLASKI: This is intended to advance the 7 discussion, not end it. 8 MS. MEYERS: Let's go caucus. 9 MR. deLASKI: If you've got another way to get 10 there, we're all ears. 11 MS. MEYERS: It may not be getting the same 12 amount of quads. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: How much time do you need? 14 MS. MEYERS: Plan on an hour. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: We'll check in in an hour. 16 Thanks. 17 MR. SACHS: This is Harvey, and -- I think it's 18 worth a little bit of summary about a couple of things 19 that have been said. 20 One of them is that Andrew did use the term 21 "straw man" at, and the second is that he did focus on 22 quads. And we recognize that quads is one of the two 23 linked critical metrics, the other is IMPB. 24 And you and I have been through an awful lot 25 together, too. I used to have hair, and -- and we're

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 101 1 staying. Okay? 2 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Thank you. 3 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you. 4 (Recess taken.) 5 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Who wants to lead off 6 and fill us in on some of the conversations from caucus? 7 MS. MEYERS: Okay. So do you want me to do it? 8 I had a conference call and -- (inaudible). 9 So I think actually, Javier, that we've come up 10 with a couple scenarios, we've asked for numbers to be 11 run, it's going to take Navigant until the morning to get 12 us that information. 13 So we would request that, you know, if we can 14 get the information tonight or first thing in the 15 morning, we'll then need to caucus again. And so we 16 would ask that we just, you know, adjourn now and then 17 perhaps get the full group back together at 9:00 o'clock 18 in the morning. 19 I need to know the results of those, speaking 20 for my company, I need to know the results of the 21 analysis so I can make some calls to see if there's any 22 room. And I think some of the other people indicated the 23 same thing. So that's what we would like if everyone is 24 willing. 25 MR. deLASKI: So Navigant runs the MIA. So

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 102 1 that -- so the MIA numbers you've asked them to run? 2 MALE SPEAKER: We've asked them for several 3 different scenarios to look at the MIA, as well as the 4 quads, as well as cost. 5 MR. deLASKI: I'm just asking because Greg 6 turned around the quad numbers for us very quick. 7 MALE SPEAKER: We have quad numbers for the 8 scenarios, we're waiting for the MIA numbers. That's the 9 primary thing that we're waiting on now. 10 MR. RAMIREZ: So let me ask Navigant: How much 11 time would it take you -- when could you get that to them 12 tonight -- if tonight, right? To see how much time they 13 would have either tonight or tomorrow morning to work on 14 this. 15 MR. RIVEST: So some of the scenarios -- 16 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, I'm sorry. We need a mic for 17 you, Michael. 18 MR. RIVEST: Yes, I mean, some are 19 straightforward and I'm sure they can, you know, we'll be 20 able to send them maybe by 8:00 tonight. 21 The others we talked about involve looking at a 22 markup scenario that's different, and that's going to 23 require some thought. And I don't want to commit to a 24 time on that one except the morning. But in terms of the 25 levels and timing and all that, you know, they'll

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 103 1 certainly have them tonight. When you come back from 2 dinner, you'll have them. 3 Which -- how do I e-mail? How do I e-mail these 4 to everybody? 5 MR. THARP: I think it should just come to the 6 industry. 7 MR. RAMIREZ: Yeah, that's -- that's where 8 the -- I'll tell you what, why don't -- why don't -- why 9 don't you all pick one person that -- 10 MR. THARP: That's what I was going to suggest. 11 MR. RAMIREZ: -- he can e-mail it to and you can 12 forward it to whoever you want from there. I just want 13 to do it so that it's secure. I don't want it going to 14 anybody it shouldn't be going to. 15 MR. THARP: Send it to me and I'll forward it to 16 everybody. He's got my e-mail right? 17 MR. RIVEST: We got it, thanks. 18 MR. WHITWELL: Yeah. Hi, this is Bob Whitwell. 19 So I didn't hear what Michael said he was going to be 20 able to send tonight and what would be later. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: So you want to -- 22 MS. HOOTMAN: Bob, we'll let you know. 23 MR. deLASKI: We'll be in touch, Bob. 24 MR. WHITWELL: You'll e-mail me? 25 MS. HOOTMAN: Yes, Bob.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 104 1 MR. deLASKI: Are you coming down tomorrow, Bob? 2 MS. HOOTMAN: No, he's coming down right now. 3 MR. WHITWELL: I will be there. I'll be leaving 4 here in an hour. 5 MS. HOOTMAN: New York, Syracuse. 6 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. Thanks, Bob. 7 So logistically, part of the reason that I'm 8 asking the question is that I don't want to -- I know 9 that sometimes it's frustrating when folks come at a 10 certain time thinking that they're going to be meeting 11 and then they have to wait some more. 12 So I just want to be respectful to some of the 13 other folks that if you're not going to get the 14 information until 8:00 o'clock and you know you're going 15 to need more than an hour to look at it, do we meet at 16 9:00 or do we meet at 9:30 or what's the realistic start 17 time? 18 MR. THARP: I think it should be probably -- 19 let's count on an hour and a half after we receive the 20 information that we asked. 21 MR. RAMIREZ: Michael, sorry, can I nail you 22 down with a little bit tighter timeline for the more 23 complicated information? You said morning, but -- 24 MR. CYMBALSKY: Why don't we just -- he said he 25 didn't commit to any time, actually.

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 105 1 MR. RAMIREZ: Oh, okay. So they would get it 2 before like 7:00 in the morning or something like that? 3 Okay. All right. 4 MR. THARP: Well, if we get it by 7:00 in the 5 morning, manufacturers can meet 7:30 in the morning, that 6 will give us an hour and a half. So let's plan on 7 starting at 9:00, then. Speaking out loud -- thinking 8 out loud. 9 So as of now, we'll plan on meeting at 7:30 in 10 the morning and then coming here at 9:00. Is that 11 enough? Because we've got to allow a half-hour to get 12 through right? 13 MALE SPEAKER: Because of what's happening 14 tomorrow morning down in the lobby. 15 MR. THARP: Let's make it 9:30, then. 16 MS. HOOTMAN: Yeah. 17 MR. THARP: Let's make it 9:30. We'll still 18 meet at 7:30 -- plan on meeting at this point, 7:30 in 19 the morning. 20 MR. SACHS: It's your job, whether you want to 21 think about trying to get into this room early or come as 22 a second phase so you have a little more certainty. 23 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, Harvey -- 24 MS. HOOTMAN: We eat over food and coffee. 25 MR. CYMBALSKY: They pretty much meet at the

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 106 1 same table. 2 MR. RAMIREZ: So get it miked up? 3 MS. HOOTMAN: Thanks, Harvey. That we like food 4 and coffee. 5 MR. CYMBALSKY: There's a Starbucks right 6 nearby. 7 MS. HOFFMAN: So John, were you going to say 8 anything? 9 MR. RAMIREZ: All right. So then everyone okay 10 with adjourning then and we'll be back at 9:00 o'clock in 11 the morning? 12 MS. HOFFMAN: 9:30. 13 MR. RAMIREZ: I'm sorry, 9:30 in the morning. 14 MS. HOFFMAN: 9:30. 15 MR. RAMIREZ: 9:30. 16 MS. HOFFMAN: By then, we might be able to get 17 in the regular entrance. But if not, you know where it 18 is, the side entrance. 19 MR. CYMBALSKY: So it's really not a big -- I 20 think it's a bigger deal than people are making of it. I 21 mean, the lobby's not a big lobby to begin with. One of 22 the doors will be closed, but the security is not going 23 to be any different in terms of what you go through 24 normally. There will be just a bunch of people having 25 some ceremony, but that shouldn't effect your entrance in

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 107 1 checking your computer and all that kind of stuff. 2 Brenda? 3 MR. RAMIREZ: We'll let her know. We'll let her 4 know. We'll let her know that we're going to be starting 5 at 9:30 instead. Thank you. 6 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Sami. Thank you 7 because we don't want to get her mad. 8 MR. RAMIREZ: It's not wise to upset Brenda. 9 MS. HOFFMAN: I guess we'll officially adjourn 10 for now and we'll see you all officially back here at 11 9:30 tomorrow morning. Have a good evening, a productive 12 one. Thank you. 13 (End of audio.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

### Meeting June9,2015 108 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 I, Kylie S. Shepherd, Certified Shorthand 4 Reporter, CERTIFY I was authorized to transcribe the 5 proceedings, and the foregoing transcript is a true and 6 accurate record. 7 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, B employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor 9 am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 10 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I 11 financially interested in the action. 12 Dated this 11th day of June, 2015. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25



### 202-220-4158 Henderson Legal Services, Inc. www.hendersonlegalservices.com

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 1 A A2Ls57:23

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## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 2 51:11 68:11 93:9 99:13 along 28:9 already22:8

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## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 3 15:17 audio2:25

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18:24 20:17 21:10 22:4 22:18 23:4 27:19 30:22 31:13 33:7 42:14 45:24 47:17,21 49:24 56:15 59:15 60:7 60:10 67:14 69:17 72:13 77:19 78:19 79:3,9 80:8 92:10,15 95:11 97:3 98:3 99:22 101:17 103:1 106:10 107:10 backsliding

88:12 backwards

58:9 bad 74:13 baked 54:20 balance 73:12

95:22 balancing

34:10 73:17 ballgame

53:19 ballpark 10:12

10:13 banding 23:10 bandwidth

23:1 bang 29:14,15

50:5 base 38:2,4,9

42:8 based 5:12

11:6 12:3 25:4 28:2 34:19 41:1,4 66:2 81:24 baseline 45:17 basically 15:7

16:5 24:4 38:13 40:13 90:15 basing 53:23 basis 34:18 Battaglia 1:7

4:15,15 bear28:14,22 beat33:25 becoming

80:19,19 before 6:2,4

16:16 32:9 35:10,13,17 43:12 44:13 53:9,10,11 56:11 59:19 61:13 63:19 78:10 81:10 84:2,19 86:8 88:17 91:24 94:12 105:2 begin 106:21 beginning

20:21 82:23 behavior 16:2 being 7:17 9:2

33:19 42:18 54:20 55:23 57:9 81:20 82:16 83:22 believe 14:25

15:23 17:16 24:6 25:10 26:6 48:9 59:14 91:21 96:6 believed 14:24 below21:23

68:7 80:25 benefit45:20

48:10 76:15 benefits 44:10

45:2,22 73:16,16 80:6 82:14 83:16,24 84:17 bent74:15 best22:6

35:15,17 65:4 92:23 better8:10

19:6 20:18 20:22 26:5 28:15 61:7 61:10 80:3 81:7 83:2,3,6 83:23 88:11 90:18 95:19 between 6:23

10:23 11:3 16:13 17:24 19:22 32:12 43:18,18 45:2 60:15 62:8 64:11 67:2 71:8 73:9 95:22 beyond21:19

22:23 23:23 24:14,21 96:4 99:5 big 21:23

43:11,17 48:13 71:3 80:12,13,15 83:15,15 95:9,12 106:19,21 bigger42:13

71:22 96:2 106:20 biggest65:9 bill 68:4 70:10 billion 49:14

51:7,8,10,15 51:16,16 52:1,7 66:6 67:10,11 76:17,17 86:21,23 bit 14:11 17:25

20:11 27:4 27:10,12 28:10 32:1,7 32:20 34:14 34:16 40:13 44:1 49:23 58:11 59:21 76:14 83:8 87:2 100:18 104:22 blank52:18 blanket22:25 blip43:5 87:5 blunt 16:17 board 91:10 Bob39:24

90:20,23 91:4 103:18 103:22,23,25 104:1,6 borrow29:22 both 6:8,12

30:23 32:8 32:17 40:14 52:18,20 60:10 65:15 79:2,2 90:8 90:13 bother30:2,2 bothers23:19

30:1 bottle 92:20 bottom 9:5,6

9:13 71:13 bottoms 71:13 bought74:16 bound 24:13 bounds 50:16

54:17 box21:23 Boyd27:15 break32:6,18

33:5 35:6 59:11 92:16 92:17,18 94:12 breaks 35:8 Brenda59:20

62:12 107:2 107:8 Brenda's

60:14 61:19 bridge30:24

31:12

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 4 bring 28:14,25

30:24 58:23 bringing 91:11 brings 21:15

22:1 28:21 broad 99:12 broken 71:4 brought35:1

91:16 buck50:5 build 64:20

68:7,10 69:4 69:4 building 8:6,9

8:16 26:16 27:6 60:4,8 64:17 buildings 27:9

27:20 28:7,7 bunch 30:3

49:11 106:24 burden 83:18 business 4:25

12:1 97:11 99:3 businesspe...

92:21 but/for77:12 buy64:17

76:19 bypass62:18 C C 1:4 3:1 calculated

51:3 calculus 95:10 calibrated

38:3 California 3:17

28:1,23 79:11 88:5 call 11:17 32:2

33:7 37:18 43:8 69:24 101:8 called 46:4 calling 14:7

65:22 calls 101:21 came 6:22

31:13 34:19 58:4 82:25 capital 37:25

38:4,7,12,12 38:16 39:6 40:25 42:7 42:10,17 44:18,20 45:4,7,10 49:7 51:2 55:22,23,25 capture 56:1

64:8 captured 5:13

5:14 capturing

42:20,21 44:3,9,10 card 35:19 care 59:18 careful 37:25 Carr 1:8 Carrier5:17 Cars 35:21 case 16:18,19

23:11 38:2,4 38:9 42:8 44:24 60:22 81:8,21 83:4 83:7 96:19 96:21 97:8 cases 52:18

52:20 cash 37:5 caucus 35:16

78:2,10,11 78:19 79:1 92:10 94:10 94:13,15 99:22 100:8 101:6,15 caucuses 31:3

32:7,8,19 35:10 caucusing

79:3 cautious 7:2 cell 46:2 census 51:14

66:1 center27:6 CEO 97:6 ceremony63:6

63:12 106:25 certain 22:8

25:11 26:20 31:21 64:2 64:13 72:1 104:10 certainly83:11

94:3 103:1 certainty

105:22 CERTIFICATE

108:1 certified 84:23

108:3 certify52:20

90:13 108:4 108:7 cetera 53:18

53:22 chain 51:22 challenge

59:25 60:1 chance 88:12

94:16 change 8:4,5

11:8 31:25 37:15 49:16 53:6 62:1 64:1 74:21 85:3 97:23 changed 34:12

37:7 41:20 changes 7:13

11:5 25:24 37:8 41:22 changing 42:7 characteriza...

10:5 15:12 Charles 2:1 Charlie 3:20

53:3 62:22 63:17,18 Charlie's 65:2 check 100:15 checking

107:1 chemical

51:19 choice 13:21 choices 26:11 choose21:17

25:12,13,14 27:24 choosing

18:17 31:21 chose 57:3 chosen 23:2 Chris 1:8

36:15 38:20 41:18 59:13 65:11,14 70:9 75:7 Christopher

1:22 4:5 chunk49:16 circumvent

17:1 citing 13:10 claim 26:20 clarification

68:18 94:12 clarify 13:1 14:6 71:19 Clarksville

69:5 class 8:25,25

9:3 14:8,12 32:25 43:20 classes 8:23

9:2 11:9 31:1 46:12 87:22 clean 36:8 cleaned 36:16 clear 16:18

23:24 24:6 28:16 30:10 47:18 48:12 85:16 clearly 19:12

48:3 close 7:8

10:13 67:23 68:14 69:5 97:14 closed 106:22 closer 60:25 closest 64:22 clothes 56:17

90:5 CO2 14:4 coalition 83:21 code 66:2

67:11 coffee 105:24

106:4 coil 53:12,22 coincide45:13

47:11 cold 95:3 colorblind

40:10 combination

8:22 combined

87:24 combines

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 5 35:10 come21:10

26:4 28:20 31:6 33:7 60:5,12,15 61:5,18 68:17 78:19 79:3,20 80:22 82:19 85:17 86:9 94:22,25 95:11,16 99:22 101:9 103:1,5 104:9 105:21 comes 6:20,25

8:14 10:18 80:15 96:25 comfort78:24 comfortable

88:21 coming 37:9

44:18,20 46:7 56:14 60:4,9,9 69:1 80:3 83:5 92:15 95:2 97:15,16 104:1,2 105:10 comment 12:2

14:20 16:17 18:22 48:24 63:19 90:3 commented

24:5 49:6 comments

13:1,25 14:15 33:4 53:23 57:20 70:8 75:6 97:13 commercial

1:1 23:22 64:18 66:4 67:25 68:12 68:13 98:18 99:8 commit84:22

102:23 104:25 commitment

50:20 51:4 commodity

65:6 common

77:23 community

5:6 92:7 companies

34:5 99:10 company21:7

25:1 45:4 56:23 97:3 98:14 99:13 101:20 company's

26:3 compare

40:17 51:4,6 52:13 87:22 compared

38:5 81:8 82:22 86:20 97:13 comparison

9:10 compelled

50:14 compete 93:15 competition

24:2 complete 82:1

86:3 89:16 94:6 completely

53:19,21 68:4 97:16 complexity 6:20 compliance

9:24 10:21 10:23 11:18 11:20 47:20 47:24 complicated

104:23 comply47:3

48:18 81:13 83:19 component

18:24 28:9 componentry

53:22 comport74:4 compression

25:12 compressor

53:8 compressors

58:24 compromises

30:4 computer

36:23 107:1 concept26:24 conceptually

83:14 89:22 concern 18:13

23:8 27:23 29:4 71:16 concerned

10:13 24:12 27:3 28:18 concerns 23:5

23:7 24:11 25:1,2 38:15 85:6 concession

82:2 98:1 concessions

81:11,14 82:12 concluded

24:3 conclusion

5:7 58:5 condition 19:1 conditioner

97:21 99:9 conditioners

1:1 81:18 conditioning

3:21 66:3 68:12 conditions

20:8 conference

61:15 101:8 confirm 10:5 confused 50:3 connected

108:10 connection

28:3 consensus

84:21 91:20 consider

33:12,25 34:3 95:3,4 95:15 consideration

23:18 85:21 97:22 consideratio...

34:3 considered

24:1,20 44:16 49:17 consistent

37:11 constituency

91:17 consultant4:8 consultants

29:1 32:23 consumer 25:8 26:14 consumers

24:1 26:10 consumption

15:21 17:1 20:18 29:25 consumptions

25:2 content5:24

65:5 66:2 contentious

33:14 contested

33:15 context22:12

38:12 continue30:8

37:21 73:23 76:4 84:23 85:5 99:1 continuing

88:8 contract 97:4 contraction

97:9 contractors

3:21 63:22 64:3,7 65:3,4 controversial

54:1,2 conversation

76:13 conversations

101:6 conversion

17:17,22 36:3,4,14 37:15 38:4 38:16,22 39:6,7 41:21 42:2,10 44:17,18,20 44:20 45:11

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 6 49:7 51:3 52:4 conversions

49:8 50:3 51:5 convincing

23:24 24:6 30:10 COO 99:2,3 cooling 28:9 copies 81:24 copper74:17 copy 14:21 core 66:23

67:19 correct 13:8

13:25 27:5 39:12,13,17 58:18 corrected 7:25 correctly6:5

34:23 correlate

40:23,24 correlation

76:2 cost38:7

40:20 47:20 49:16 54:10 80:24 81:9 81:12 98:14 102:4 costless 54:6 costs 36:3,4

36:15 37:9 37:15 38:16 38:22 39:7 40:25 41:21 42:2,7,17 43:9 44:18 44:20 45:11 45:13 47:24 49:8,11 51:3 52:4 53:18 54:19 66:7 80:6 83:3 counsel 49:12

61:22 108:8 108:10 Counsel's

3:23 count 104:19 counted 45:11 counter-avai...

42:6 counteroffer

88:10 counting

68:22,24 country83:3 couple 5:11

6:18 12:25 59:19 93:25 100:18 101:10 course 12:1

13:16 81:12 84:1 courtyard 63:8 cover29:17 crafted 34:9 craziness 62:7

62:13 creating 7:23 creative6:16

28:5 creativity6:20

6:25 32:14 criteria 24:4 critical 39:3

100:23 crowds 60:16 CUAC65:23

65:23,23 72:19 76:20 77:12 cumulative

13:18 47:2 curb 17:7,8,10 17:11,17,22 19:10,12,15 19:23 current22:23

30:15 89:10 curve 19:13

43:5,6 80:24 curves 30:3 customer 17:3

64:16 cut95:14 cycles45:8 Cymbalsky 1:9

3:25,25 4:20 10:25 11:25 13:7,12,20 15:6 33:1 34:24 35:3 35:19 36:11 76:12 77:6 77:17 78:17 78:21 86:14 91:2 104:24 105:25 106:5 106:19 D D2:6 3:1 D-1 90:7 D-2 90:7,8,12 Dan 78:14 Darlington

1:10 data27:6

42:14 44:23 65:25 66:5 67:8 73:25 date 9:24

10:19,21 11:18,21 12:18 13:3,5 44:11 48:12 55:1 81:14 81:17,18 82:5 86:16 87:17 Dated 108:12 dates 6:10,24

10:15,16 32:15,25 81:20 86:4 86:15 89:12 89:15 97:20 97:21,23 Dave2:20 3:13

4:12 21:13 22:7 24:25 26:3 30:5 35:1 56:19 67:13 73:17 78:8 91:9 92:4 97:8 98:7 Dave's26:4

33:3 94:4 David 1:14 2:6

4:17 day61:13 63:3

108:12 days4:24 6:18

28:9 90:1 94:1 deal 10:15

22:13 31:23 31:24 62:6 63:10 65:5 106:20 dealing 58:21

84:3 dealt29:21 debatable 58:8 debate 76:7

96:8 debated 96:9 decade-long

65:3 decent 88:15 decision 48:21 95:9 decisions 57:8 deck5:21 decrease 11:9 dedicated

68:11 Definitely

54:13 definition 5:19 degree28:9

53:20 del 1:12 4:17 deLaski 1:11

3:18,18 10:4 12:7,21,23 12:25 13:9 13:14 16:9 20:11 29:9 31:6 32:22 33:8 40:8,18 41:1,4,9 42:24 43:12 43:17 45:24 46:1,13,17 46:21 47:5 48:1,6,11,23 50:18 54:24 55:9,17 56:8 56:11 60:24 68:18,22,24 69:1,6,9,13 73:3 75:20 76:5 78:19 79:18,20,23 86:15 88:16 88:22 89:4,7 89:14 90:2 90:11,23 91:6 92:17 94:14 96:5 96:14 97:19 98:7,10 100:2,6,9

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 7 101:25 102:5 103:23 104:1 delay43:25

45:20,20 81:17 delays63:14 deliver 16:23

17:2 87:15 delta 30:17

32:11 64:11 denominator

42:9 depart 15:22 dependent

21:16 depending

40:15 46:7 depends 35:19

43:20 58:9 depreciated

55:23 depreciation

38:7 derive35:15 describe 52:16 design 15:12

16:6 57:3,13 93:19 designing

56:24 57:5,6 57:16 designs 16:23

53:9,12,12 53:22,22 93:17 desire 97:22 detail 73:2

88:21 detailed 26:21 details 94:11 determination

23:25 Detlef2:17 4:6

17:20 18:21 20:4 develop29:6

37:20 development

54:5 device 91:4 difference

16:12 19:22 19:25 20:3 30:18 31:12 32:12 42:14 42:20,21,22 43:17 67:2,7 75:16 84:7,8 84:12,12 differences

29:18 44:9 84:11,15 different 10:15

18:2 23:22 29:20 31:22 32:13,15,24 32:25,25 35:8 42:16 42:16,17,18 43:15 52:17 53:7,14,15 75:20 80:5 83:9 97:16 102:3,22 106:23 differential

39:15 differentials

5:18 differentiating

65:4 difficult55:2

64:15 digging 14:18 digits 18:25 dinner 103:2 direct57:14,18

65:22 66:7,7 67:19 69:7 70:13 74:12 76:25 direction

28:16 directional

22:5 directions

40:14 directly68:12

68:16 69:17 directory

84:23 disagree 52:24 disappear

74:8 discharge

58:22,23 discount 9:15

86:22,23 discounting

44:8 discuss 61:12

91:13,23 discussed

15:13 18:20 22:17,18 23:15 24:16 25:9 56:11 84:20 87:1,5 discussion 8:7

14:1 18:5 21:14 22:16 32:9 63:20 65:15 78:4 81:10 84:13 85:5 91:7 93:4 100:7 discussions

21:8 73:23 90:9 91:12 displacing

7:24 disposable 76:21 divide66:16 dividing 70:19 DLTs 58:23 docket20:17

20:25 85:4 dockets 56:12

95:8 DOE 3:23,25

4:20 6:22 11:1,2 12:1,4 12:13,14 24:3,12 28:25 29:12 29:14,19 30:19 33:1 34:3 73:5 76:12 81:17 84:9 86:1,24 89:23 90:6 97:13,15 DOE's 5:9 11:4

23:4 99:13 doing 12:1

27:13 32:16 34:23 44:7 44:10 52:5 61:20 69:13 70:11 93:1 94:9 95:23 99:13 dollar51:8,8,9

51:10 dollars 55:24 domestic

23:14 71:5 72:11 76:23 77:13,13 door61:4,5 doors 60:25

106:22 Doppel 1:13 double 70:6 doubles 59:5 doubt49:5 73:10 downstream

42:19 53:2 53:16 64:2 Dr57:22 dramatically

98:5 draw 17:24 drawbacks

89:24 drive66:11

84:15 88:20 95:9 98:4 driven 21:24

65:24 driver41:25

70:1 drivers41:25 driving 20:2

27:24 67:7 95:10 98:2 drop 7:15,15

8:2,19 60:6 98:17,20 drop-off63:10 drops 8:17 dryers90:5,7 dual 5:18 duct5:18

15:19 27:19 27:21 due 7:15,19 during 36:15

38:15 45:6 81:11,11 dynamic74:22 E E 1:4,4 3:1,1 e-mail 36:22

36:23,25 103:3,3,11 103:16,24

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 8 e-mailed 36:18 e-mails 99:2,2

99:3 earlier 16:10

20:14 25:23 62:20 65:16 85:5 90:17 early62:20

63:9 105:21 ears 95:20,20

100:10 easier 34:16

63:6 easily 10:10

11:11 68:17 84:25 eat78:21

105:24 echo 19:20

92:6 economic 23:8

24:1,4,13 73:16 82:15 83:16,24 84:16 economically

26:7 economizers

8:7,11 economy

76:22 educated

53:13 EER 6:8 84:20

84:23 88:6 88:12,15 effect41:9

55:11 84:19 89:25 90:13 106:25 effective6:10

13:3,4 39:20 46:3,24 81:20 effectively 7:23 12:17 effects 42:7

53:2,16 efficiency3:15

5:13 8:6,8,13 8:24 9:1,2,3 9:23,24 10:2 10:2 50:21 52:12 53:3 54:4,9,20 58:16 80:13 80:14 81:21 82:10 87:20 87:23 efficient 8:16 effort45:16

99:1 Eileen 1:17 either 10:22

47:13 73:6 80:18 94:7 102:13 EL-1 17:21

47:3 93:23 EL-2 14:9,12 EL-3 17:23

18:25 19:22 19:25 24:7 93:22 EL-3.5 19:2

20:1 EL-424:3 elevated 15:15 eliminate 95:1 ELs 8:22 else 6:1,11,14

18:12,18 44:24 55:13 73:9 76:18 94:12 embark82:23 embedded

47:25 embellish 88:3 Emerson 3:22

10:14 16:4 92:25 Emery4:13 emission

82:16 84:17 emphasize

81:4 emphasizes

19:7 employ23:2 employed

74:24 employee

108:8,9 employees

23:14 72:6 72:15 employment

23:13 24:18 36:5,9,16 65:16,21,22 72:4,5,11 74:22 76:25 end 6:18 13:2

17:13 33:14 36:1 58:20 60:7,10 61:13 64:16 72:8 89:19 92:8 100:7 107:13 ending 45:8 ends 62:11,23

62:23 63:6 energy3:14

7:23 8:14,16 8:17 9:8 11:10 15:8 15:20 16:23 17:1 19:7 20:18,23 23:6 25:2,3,6 26:25 27:25 28:15 29:7 29:24 34:11 64:23 73:15 80:13,24 81:7 82:15 82:22 83:3,7 83:16,23 84:4,16 85:7 86:21 94:23 98:1,13 engineering

37:10 66:22 enormous

45:21 enough 10:13

62:2 76:3 99:15,15 105:11 enter60:11

61:3 entire 91:17

98:22 entrance 60:8

106:17,18,25 entrances

60:4 entry62:6 environment

83:15,24 environmental

49:13 73:16 82:15 EPA54:21 equal 52:21

94:20 equate 13:21 equipment

8:17 9:1,3 11:9 14:8,22 15:5,12 26:25 27:17 29:25 30:25 51:23 53:7 64:5,7,18 66:3,4 69:16 70:13 93:12 93:21 Eric 2:14 3:23

90:3 especially

58:25 essentially

18:16 66:23 established

24:7 estimate41:10

69:15 71:13 estimated

17:17 25:3 67:15 estimates

38:18 estimating

17:22 52:13 estimation

73:18 et53:18,22 evening

107:11 event49:13

59:21 ever53:9 every 13:4

67:25 93:19 everybody

58:25 79:5 103:4,16 everyone3:2

6:21 7:2,10 88:6 98:25 99:15 101:23 106:9 everyone's

80:10 everything

6:11,13 38:21 70:19

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 9 98:2 evidence

23:24 24:6 exact25:19

26:13,16,17 82:24 exactly46:17

46:18 94:4 example 8:24

27:7 45:1 55:21 90:5,5 examples

88:11 except 102:24 exceptionally

42:1 exchanger

53:10 Excuse 14:19 existing 7:17

27:20,20 exogenous

50:4 expand 54:17

76:6 expect 15:22

16:23 38:11 expectation

13:2 expenditures

38:1,1,13 55:25 56:1 77:12 expense 38:13 experience

44:14 90:3,4 experienced

53:9 explain 37:16

79:19 88:25 explanation

14:24 explore 94:11 exploring 50:16 Extend 92:17 extended 7:16

7:20,21 8:1 92:16,17 external 15:15

15:18 17:9 50:4 extra 60:22 extract 39:15 extreme 54:18

54:19 eyeballed

40:17 F fa-mediate

32:2 fa-mediation

78:6 fabrication

74:17 faced 98:17 facilitating

32:2 78:7 facilitator32:4 facilitators

32:1,20 facilitators/...

78:3 facility98:19

98:21,22 fact44:5 47:16

73:25 97:1,3 factor23:16

73:18 factors 23:25

24:20 33:25 34:2 48:22 73:12 75:1 failure 91:3 fall 65:17 77:5 family63:10 fan 15:9,15,21 19:1,3,6,7 20:9,10,18 53:11 85:7 far6:24 10:12 14:17 20:6,7 27:13 32:6 57:7 67:9 68:16 71:17 72:4 77:16 77:21 81:14 feasible 26:7 features 85:7 federal 3:6,7

57:17 61:24 61:24 federally89:25 feeding 42:14

42:23 feel 23:12,15

24:14 50:14 75:23 81:10 82:11 feel-good

78:23 FEMALE4:16

36:22 61:1 62:10,14,19 62:22 63:1 63:12 77:25 90:25 field 25:7 figure4:22

28:17,20 57:8 59:4 67:2 figured 52:4

71:10 figures 38:3

43:1 66:8,10 66:12 figuring 14:25 filed 97:14 fill 101:6 fin 53:22 final 7:4 12:19 13:2 finalize 63:15

71:19 financial 37:13

41:20 financially 108:11 find 32:16

59:24 60:2 64:11,24 77:23 fired 97:4 firmly91:21 first5:21 10:21 18:3 35:13 41:19 44:2 46:9,15,15 52:24 56:8 67:14 74:7 78:10,12 91:10 95:24 101:14 five 18:16 45:6

45:16 47:8 69:5 flat38:6,8 flattening 17:25 flawed 55:11 flexibility

30:24 82:8 87:18 95:7 flights 62:19 flip5:23 floating 76:21 floor6:4 69:21 flow20:7 37:5 focus 9:5

22:13 70:1 100:21 focused 36:4

84:5,5 focuses 83:10 focusing 96:18 folded 54:9 folks 12:9

35:23 36:10 36:25 60:9 64:20 66:20 67:2,6 72:9 104:9,13 follow-up

32:22 following 33:3 food 78:21,23

78:24 105:24 106:3 force50:4

71:14 forecast 38:10 forecasts

37:10 foregoing 108:5 forget64:4 forgot21:9 form 6:12 formatting

9:15 forth 93:22 forthcoming

24:9 forum 4:25 forward 5:25

24:11 27:23 28:16 32:10 58:8,10 64:22 78:5 88:19 91:11 103:12,15 found 25:7 four 12:19 13:25 68:10 96:9 fraction 17:16

74:21

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 10 fractions

77:11 framing 83:10

94:18 95:18 frankly43:5

91:15 fringe 67:18 front60:5 61:6

79:20 frustrating 104:9 full 13:7 19:2,3

20:8,9 101:17 fully37:18 furnace 68:13

97:20,21 furnaces

84:18 99:7 furnished

81:16 further 14:15 18:22 24:24 29:6 92:1 108:7 future20:17

20:24,25 G G 3:1 gain 81:19 gambler35:22 gap 30:24 45:1 Garvin 1:14

4:17 gave86:20 general 3:23

16:1 22:3 27:14,16 43:7 47:16 generally42:4 generate

10:10 11:12 getting 18:10 21:19 27:25 32:13 33:9 42:1 52:6 55:1 59:21 75:8,9,25 76:13 77:15 82:14 85:19 100:11 give6:4 11:2

28:2 44:14 60:22 72:21 73:25 79:10 82:7 94:15 105:6 given 21:1

30:25 88:11 97:20,21,21 gives 86:5

87:17 88:11 giving 50:4

98:13 go3:3,4 5:20

5:21 6:3 7:6 11:6 12:10 14:17,25 15:6,8 21:19 22:3,14 27:19 36:12 37:6,14 45:24 53:1 59:14 61:4 63:17 66:5 71:21 76:9 77:21 78:16 79:8 80:12 81:20 82:4 87:8,9,10,19 87:20 89:12 92:9 96:6 97:3 98:3 99:22 100:8 106:23 goes 16:13,22

20:7 40:14 42:11,14 56:15 76:18 76:18,19 87:1 89:25 98:11 99:5 going 5:10,11

5:20 6:8,21 8:8 11:6 14:10 21:10 23:4 24:11 25:19 29:3 29:14,15 31:22,24 33:21 36:18 36:24 47:8 47:11 48:19 49:2,14 52:19 53:6,8 53:13,17,23 54:20 57:11 57:12,16 58:4,7,8,10 58:10,11,20 58:22 59:4 59:14 60:3 60:14,17 61:6 62:5,13 62:13,16 63:13 67:14 71:1 73:21 73:22,24 76:10 78:25 79:8,14 80:19 84:13 84:14 85:14 85:18,24 87:19 89:21 91:2,6 92:22 94:24 95:4,9 95:15 96:1,3 96:23 97:3,4 97:10 98:16 98:20 99:17 101:11 102:22 103:10,13,14 103:19 104:10,13,14 106:7,22 107:4 gone65:6 good 5:5 7:10

16:14 17:15 29:10 43:8 50:11 76:10 83:23 100:5 107:11 Goodman 3:10

4:13 10:7 13:23 21:7 24:25 49:4 51:18 54:12 goods 70:13

77:13,13 Google57:22 got 18:15,16

22:21 24:23 30:20 31:15 35:8,19 39:25 54:18 54:19 58:24 63:9 82:25 84:20 89:23 92:19 93:20 98:25 99:2,2 99:6,6,7,8,20 100:9 103:16 103:17 105:11 granted 16:24 gravy78:24 Great 79:13 Greg 2:8 4:2

6:4 7:6 10:4 11:5 12:12 14:16,20 15:6 17:4 20:12 22:9 46:11 86:17 86:18 87:6,7 102:5 GRIM 35:25

37:19,22 38:16,19,22 39:19 52:3 66:15 GRIM's42:21 gross 38:8

43:2 grossly72:4 ground 21:1

29:17 54:23 77:24 group 1:1 5:3

5:24 59:10 67:11 78:25 92:13 93:10 101:17 groupings

57:2 groups 32:6

64:19 78:4 growing 23:7 growth 38:11 guess 18:1

22:15 31:20 43:8 48:1 50:8 53:13 56:22 60:21 65:19 72:20 76:18 79:9 84:25 91:10 94:14 100:2 107:9 guy27:16 guys30:2

31:10 43:8 48:12,24 50:5 73:25 93:15,21 94:16 99:21

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 11 H hadn't24:6

36:6 44:22 hair 100:25 haircut 94:22

97:13,17 half7:18 31:19

55:18,24 67:23 84:7 104:19 105:6 half-hour

31:14,16 105:11 hand 29:21

79:24 handling 53:7 handprint

60:25 hang 63:7 happen 91:22

95:4,15 96:1 happening

99:6,8,9 105:13 happenings

99:7 happens 19:5

81:1 happy25:13

29:24 91:16 92:22 hard 26:19

30:16 64:7,8 64:14,20 74:11 77:22 harder64:24 Hardin 1:15 harm 56:4 harsh 60:2 Harvey2:9

3:11 11:22 34:22 35:14 50:25 57:19 65:1,9 74:7 75:11 76:5 76:13 77:8 88:16,19 93:24 100:17 105:23 106:3 has 7:25 11:20

15:24 18:25 19:6,9 20:13 22:18,20 23:2,17 25:1 32:11 34:12 59:13,20 65:6 66:6 71:17 73:5 74:4 75:5 83:2 84:20 89:24 90:6 99:3,13 hasn't 90:10 hassle 63:11 hat32:4,4 hate 61:15 haven't44:12

51:1 67:3 96:3 having 24:8

26:21 32:6 35:14,15 46:21 47:2 48:1 59:20 72:3 78:1,2,3 78:4 94:10 106:24 He'll 36:12 head 20:12

67:3 72:14 90:15 heads 57:24

57:25 59:8 70:3 hear 16:21

19:18 29:13 31:21 34:22 39:3 80:8 90:19,21,23 97:19 103:19 heard 16:16

17:3 20:15 31:21,23 46:10,14 65:15 72:9 73:6,8 81:5 85:15 hearing 21:2

50:18 57:24 70:4 72:11 72:14 88:20 99:21 heart50:19

94:18 heat25:13

53:9 heaters 99:7 heating 66:3 heavily27:4 heck61:20 held 60:23 Hello 18:23 help 18:2

24:10 28:14 28:20,25 48:7,13 55:12 60:15 65:3 74:1 97:23 helpful 59:7

94:11 helping 60:13

62:20 helps 26:10 her 107:3,3,4,7 here4:21 9:4

11:16 13:11 14:10,17 21:18 22:4 22:14 24:8 24:12,19 29:11,11 30:1,2,4,12 31:19 32:16 33:10 35:13 35:23 36:12 36:23 39:5,9 41:7 42:4,7 43:22 44:12 44:22 46:3 50:16 52:1 52:18 53:4 54:1,3,23 56:9 57:15 59:4,10,15 59:21 60:17 61:24,25 62:20,21 63:9,24,25 66:22 67:4 71:19 72:1 73:11 75:20 76:7,17 77:16,21 78:16 79:5 79:16,25 80:11 82:19 87:22 89:18 91:12,14,17 91:20 93:5 94:1,17 95:4 95:4,9 97:2 97:12,16,24 104:4 105:10 107:10 here's 46:21

57:16 74:4 Hermosillo

1:16 3:7,7 Hey39:24

56:14 Hi 65:14 88:5

103:18 high 28:7,8

38:5 40:1 41:10 70:19 higher 14:11 15:20,20 17:1,11,12 19:2 27:18 27:21 29:16 40:3,4 64:8 71:21 73:5 93:9 highly21:16 hit62:5 76:14 hits25:17 Hoffman 1:17

59:23,25 78:18,25 79:5 101:3 106:7,12,14 106:16 107:6 107:9 hold 51:11,13 home4:21 honestly41:12 Hootman 1:18

68:9,9,21,23 68:25 69:4,7 69:11,19,21 70:17,21 71:6,9 75:8 75:13,18 77:4 79:10 96:12,20 97:1 103:22 103:25 104:2 104:5 105:16 105:24 106:3 hope31:15,19

34:13 98:25 99:21 hopefully4:22

5:1,20 32:17 36:15 74:1 82:7 95:17 99:24 hoping 4:24

5:2 31:9

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 12 horizontal

56:18 hour31:20

99:19 100:14 100:15 104:4 104:15,19 105:6 hours26:16

26:18 68:1 House49:12

49:22 housekeeping

59:19 However6:19

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4:17 huge49:16

50:19 53:6 57:11 84:4 hundred 68:13 hundredths

18:25 Hunt 1:20 3:16

3:16 11:13 11:13 14:19 14:19 15:4,4 16:3 36:17 36:17 37:1,1 39:2,3,11,14 39:18,22 47:15,15 88:5,5 Hurst 1:21

4:10,10,14 4:14 33:18 33:23 HVAC64:18 I I'd 14:20 22:7

55:13,24 66:21 78:17 I'll 6:3 19:20 21:10 37:4 37:14,15,22 43:8,20 49:4 65:8 68:14 72:25 73:4 78:14 79:17 79:20 87:5 96:11 103:8 103:15 104:3 idea 31:3

58:20 79:15 79:15 82:25 Ideally82:21 ideas 21:2 identified 25:8 IEER 5:18

15:17,22 16:12,15,22 18:25 19:2,6 20:17 21:25 25:9,11,15 25:17,19,22 26:17 42:22 56:24 57:5,5 85:10 86:2 89:1 IEERs 43:16 imagine 98:20 IMP 35:25 impact 7:12

9:20 14:14 22:10 36:2 40:3,4,22 47:2 48:22 49:17 57:11 57:18 64:2 71:17,22,22 73:12,13,15 73:21 76:7 82:17 95:1 96:16 impacted

58:11 impacts 9:19 14:11 19:11 23:18 24:1,2 36:13 55:9 72:5 76:25 80:15,18 82:13 94:25 96:15 IMPB 23:10

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77:12 imposition

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16:15 58:7 58:17 improvements

54:5 IMPV99:11 inaudible

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8:8 20:22 39:9 incorporated

38:20,21 incorporation

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64:13 increases

82:22 increasing

38:10 increment

50:22 incremental

23:23 54:10 incurring

45:12 independently

78:10,12 indicate 66:9 indicated 26:3

66:20 101:22 indicative

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9:22,25 10:5 14:5,7,7 26:10 30:22 38:8 42:8 46:5,24 49:13 50:20 51:9,10,14 51:15 52:1 65:21 66:2,5 66:18 67:9 71:12,23,24 72:15 74:13 81:19 82:4 82:17 83:2 83:18 94:2 98:17,20 103:6 industry's

51:6 58:10 inflection 43:9

80:11,17,23 80:25 81:1 information

12:2,3 22:9 24:9 26:10 26:21 28:14 28:25 39:10 41:8 67:22 74:1 76:3 101:12,14 104:14,20,23 inherently

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81:17 initiate 86:1 input41:4 inputs 37:6

50:13 instant 94:7 instead 81:16

84:21,22 107:5 intangible

63:24 intended

21:25 100:6

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 13 intent26:3,3

89:8,8 interaction

16:11 interest 79:23

79:25 80:2 interested

5:17 11:11 30:13 36:10 88:6 108:11 internal 28:8 internally

91:24 interrupt 10:4 interview

38:18 47:18 47:22,23 73:1 interviews

38:20 41:1 into 6:2 7:7

14:18 15:19 21:24 23:9 23:17 32:19 38:22 45:14 47:6,7 50:15 54:9,20 57:11 58:20 60:4 65:6 77:15,16 82:25 83:5 85:20 89:25 93:21 94:22 97:22 105:21 introduce 95:6 introduces

17:8 introducing

28:6 introductions

3:4 investment

50:21 51:16 52:13 investments 44:5,8 48:15 52:12 81:25 82:4,8,9 involve34:4

102:21 IOUs 3:17

79:12 88:6 irrelevant

49:23 Isael 1:16 3:7 isn't 17:5,6

37:18 49:16 98:11 issue 15:23

18:20 20:15 48:24 65:20 76:10 87:1 issues 7:7

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89:20 J J 1:21,24 James 1:7

4:15 jammed 61:6 January 10:16

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108:12 justification

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52:23 61:9 80:12 92:17 92:19 95:7 Karen's 57:20 Karim 1:5 4:7 12:11,12,18 50:7,8 72:20 75:14 88:7 keep 31:19

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90:6 Kennedy

31:20 kicking 17:8 kicks 87:13 kind 17:3

18:12 21:24 22:1,25 24:18 28:13 29:7 30:20 33:25 42:3 56:23 62:4 63:14 67:15 67:22 75:13 75:16,25 80:10 89:18 107:1 kiosk60:12 knee43:6 knew 31:14 Knocks 74:12 know5:7,9,17

11:1,25 15:12,14,25 16:14,22 17:16,21 18:21,21 20:8 21:4,14 21:20 22:15 23:5,10,24 24:16,19,23 26:8,12,13 26:24,25 27:2,6,13,23 28:5,12,24 29:1,3,3,10 29:13,23,25 30:5,6,7,7,12 30:13,20,21 30:22,22 31:10,11,12 33:11,14,15 33:23 37:20 38:12 40:16 40:22 42:11 42:12,19 43:16 44:23 45:8,17,22 45:23 47:8 47:12 48:6 48:15,19,22 48:25 49:6,6 50:11,13 53:12,18 54:16 55:2 55:15 56:23 57:3,4,7 59:1 61:15 62:4 62:10,12,15 63:25 64:5,9 64:10,11,12 64:14,18 66:14 67:4,9 69:25 70:4,5 72:9,13 73:4 73:5,6,7,10 73:12,20 74:3 75:9,14 76:6 81:5 82:22,24 85:14,17,23 85:24 89:8 89:18,20 90:16,17 91:11,13,13 91:21 92:1 93:3,5,6,7,10 93:18,23

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 14 94:19,22,24 95:1,7,8,11 95:13,14,18 96:16,16,20 97:7,12,24 99:3,14,15 99:16,16 100:3 101:13 101:16,19,20 102:19,25 103:22 104:8 104:14 106:17 107:3 107:4,4 knows 6:22

88:6 Kylie2:25

108:3,17 L L'Enfant61:14 labeled 9:21 labor66:7,7

70:13,18 labor-intensi...

67:12 ladies 60:13 laid 21:1 37:23 land 81:2 landed 20:14 lane 58:23 language 6:9 laptop 61:2 large 6:25 7:15

9:1 10:8,8 11:9 14:8,12 21:21 73:7 82:14 84:15 86:10,11,12 87:8,23 largely74:14

82:1 larger 17:19

69:2 71:22 80:19 last5:5,7,12

8:3,12,21 9:6 9:12,15,16 9:17,17,21 10:6 22:17 23:14 31:9 34:15 36:2,6 37:7,11,24 38:15,20 39:8 42:25 46:10,14 62:3,4 63:20 65:15,17 66:1 80:12 80:17 81:5 86:16 91:16 92:19 93:2 93:25 lasting 92:20 late 85:17,25 later 10:18

48:12 55:1 63:15 78:11 82:7 86:6 87:19,20 103:20 Lau 1:22 4:5,5

35:25 41:15 41:18,18 65:14,14 69:20,23 72:8 Laughing 59:9 Laughter78:6 lawyers 30:11 lay84:2 LBNL4:2

86:12 lead 7:12 30:9

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8:4,15 77:10 learning 95:24 least 63:21

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29:19 31:9 75:10 legal 24:4,13 Lennox4:10

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9:2,3,24,25 10:2,2,23 17:12 23:23 25:11 27:24 29:6,15,16 30:14,15,19 30:24 31:11 40:15 53:3 57:6 64:13 73:1,24 80:22 82:3 86:8,9 87:3,3 88:20 93:8 levels 6:10,22

8:21 11:17 14:5 22:5 23:5,13 24:15,18 29:12 32:24 39:7 56:24 57:2,4,17 64:1 81:24 81:25 84:14 86:8 93:9 102:25 life45:8 74:9 lifetime 7:18 light21:15

22:1 71:6 92:8 like 6:1,16

8:10,25 11:6 14:20 19:17 19:22 21:5 22:7 28:13 28:23 29:22 43:4,6,19,20 54:16 55:14 55:24 58:22 61:5,15,20 65:2,12 71:7 72:17 74:9 77:10 79:15 82:11 89:1 89:19 91:3 92:3 93:15 94:9 95:25 99:13 101:23 105:2,2 106:3 likely53:12

68:17 87:14 88:14 97:23 limited 99:11 limits 16:1 Linda2:19

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29:23 30:6 30:25 32:17 79:24 90:8 load 20:9,10

28:7 loads 28:8 lobby61:6

105:14 106:21 lobby's 106:21 location 61:8

61:11 locations

61:23 locks 50:15 logical 81:1 logistical

59:22 logistically

104:7 long 1:19 4:17

25:23 56:16

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 15 58:19 63:13 92:14 99:19 longer31:19 look6:21 15:4

20:17,22 27:3 29:18 34:11 35:20 37:25 41:12 41:23 56:5 64:9 68:14 70:23 77:22 80:6 82:2 84:14 85:3 88:10,19 94:21 99:12 102:3 104:15 looked 38:1

73:1 96:3 looking 6:8,19

13:11 18:23 38:9 42:13 42:24 51:13 54:25 55:11 61:19 67:21 71:18 75:13 79:19 80:16 80:23,24 81:6 83:5 102:21 looks 15:17

19:17,22 21:5 43:4,6 79:14 lose 64:23

71:24 96:3 98:17 loss 34:10

42:9 lot7:22 15:14

18:7 21:15 22:2 30:5 42:12,20,21 52:25 53:5 55:4 63:24 64:7 65:6,24 70:15 74:18 76:20 77:10 80:2 87:18 92:21 93:1,4 93:25 95:8 98:23 99:17 100:24 lots26:18,18

27:13,17 loud 85:15

105:7,8 Louis2:13

3:14 17:5,16 26:23 33:17 34:7 56:19 56:20,21 57:10 88:16 low40:2 67:17

96:21,22,24 lower 15:7

29:15 40:5 66:19 71:13 73:19 80:22 81:21 83:2 87:8,14 lubricants

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56:14 making 33:15

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36:13 37:8 53:15 74:24 80:15 98:18 many 18:4,9

23:5,11 24:16 25:10 25:10 30:1 68:1 75:4 76:8 84:9,9 96:3 98:13 98:14 march 26:8,12 marching 26:2 marginally

17:19 margins 43:2 market 17:17

17:22 47:13 95:25 markets 43:3 markup 37:12

102:22 markups

66:13 Marshall 1:20

3:16 11:13 14:19 15:4 36:17 37:1 39:3 47:15 88:2,5 Mary 1:6 79:11 matching 27:20 math 30:16 matter50:23

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18:2,17 21:22 28:6,7 28:8,21,24 29:5 31:2,16 31:25 32:7 32:15,19 33:5,5 34:20 52:9 53:3 56:25 61:4 67:11 70:18 71:12 72:21 72:22 78:22 79:16 83:2 86:18 89:17 102:20 McCabe 1:24

4:8,8 88:24 88:24 89:5 McClive 1:25

4:18 McCrudden

2:1 3:20,20 53:3 62:25 63:2,5,18 65:8 McDermott

4:12 mean 10:24

15:11 16:6 16:18 18:3

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 16 18:19 19:11 28:18 40:8 40:12,17,18 41:10 42:15 43:14,23 48:11,23 50:16 51:5 52:17 53:14 54:18,25 55:17 56:24 57:7 58:6,19 59:2 60:24 61:14 67:21 67:22 68:1 68:17 69:23 71:23 72:21 72:22,25 84:8 93:4,11 93:13,16 96:1,6 98:18 102:18 106:21 meant 89:7 measure 74:13 measures 80:4

80:5 mechanical

91:3 mediating

32:3 78:7 Mediation 3:6

3:8 mediator32:4 medium 86:10

86:12 93:11 meet24:4

45:12 47:12 92:12 94:5 104:15,16 105:5,18,25 meeting 1:2

5:2 22:17 23:14 31:10 31:14,16 34:15 36:2 37:7 38:15 42:25 45:17 54:11 62:23 62:23 104:10 105:9,18 meetings

15:14 17:21 18:20 20:14 96:9 Meg 2:16 4:17

19:17 88:16 Meg's 88:16 members

91:15 membership

64:20 memory 11:14 mentioned

7:11 25:1 51:15 merge29:18 merit 89:23 message

99:21 met5:5 metal 74:17 method 16:25

20:22 85:2,4 85:6,10,16 85:20 89:9 89:11 90:12 methodology

74:5 metric 25:9,22

26:19 27:4 28:4,15 metrics 37:14

41:21 80:4 100:23 Mexico 70:16

70:17 71:9 71:10,11 Meyers2:2 3:12,12 52:23 54:7 60:19 61:7 61:10,14 63:4 70:23 71:1 92:21 98:13 100:5 100:8,11,14 101:7 MIA33:3 34:23

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33:9 mitigate55:10

76:25 82:13 mix71:8 model 18:3,8

18:11,15,17 37:21 42:3 42:15 43:10 44:7 45:5 47:5,6 48:9 48:20 55:12 55:14,19 64:15 66:25 modeled 19:15

20:5 37:17 44:13,15 45:1 modeling

27:14 43:22 44:4,16 51:7 51:25 52:1 64:9 66:22 models 18:4,7

18:9,16 modification

21:8 modifications 25:24 modified

10:17 moment21:9 money44:4,9

76:18 month's 74:21 mor8:16 more 10:22

17:8,23 18:1 18:11 19:6,8 26:21 27:11 28:10,21 29:6 31:15 32:3 35:6 36:7 38:7,14 40:13,19,21 43:6 44:8 45:21 48:25 53:2 59:7 64:15 67:12 74:3,18 76:20 80:19 83:10,17 88:14,21 89:17 98:7 104:11,15,22 105:22 morning 7:10

65:16 80:2 80:16 85:5 87:2 92:15 101:11,15,18 102:13,24 104:23 105:2 105:5,5,10 105:14,19 106:11,13 107:11 most5:12 27:9

37:10 39:10 50:5 56:16 move5:25

24:21 32:9

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 17 43:20 59:19 61:7,10 64:22 78:4 80:21 moved 70:15 movement

25:14 86:15 moves28:21 moving 6:24

27:23 39:16 40:13 44:6 44:11 79:25 87:18 91:19 94:15 MPC 66:13 much 6:13

18:10 20:2 27:18,21 35:5,6,15,24 49:25 53:20 55:2 59:6 62:12 78:15 84:10 87:24 88:11,14 92:11,12 95:6 98:20 99:11 100:13 102:10,12 105:25 multiple27:1 must23:23 muted 90:25 N N 1:4 3:1 nail 104:21 name27:16

41:17 names 12:9 narrow22:13 nation 73:15

94:23 national 7:11

9:8,19 14:14 64:17 82:14 94:23 Navigant4:3,4

4:5,6,15 5:16 18:6 37:4 41:18 65:14 101:11,25 102:10 near53:24 nearby 106:6 necessarily

25:21 26:1 29:5 41:11 45:21 96:24 necessary

4:23 NEEA 17:5

26:23 34:7 56:21 NEEA's27:3 need 20:16

22:11 23:25 30:23 32:24 33:25 35:6,7 35:24 36:7,7 58:23 60:3 63:16 64:21 71:25 75:21 75:22,23 78:9,11,15 91:13,17,23 92:9,12 99:22 100:13 101:15,19,20 102:16 104:15 needed 89:17 needing 94:5 needs 29:6

34:3 52:17 74:2,3 75:23 94:5 negated 44:1 neglected 8:13 negotiate 22:11 24:8 29:12 37:21 71:18 73:24 75:24 negotiating

89:9 negotiation

65:16 75:21 96:23 99:5 negotiations

13:16 57:13 76:4 80:1 82:18 nerve76:15 NES 30:14 net9:9 34:10

46:6,24 86:21,22 Neto4:4,4 never 14:23

53:10 new5:14,21

9:7,8,11 34:12 38:25 39:14 53:1,8 53:9,11,19 53:22 55:22 64:18 76:19 80:6,23 81:13,15 89:3,20 90:12 94:16 104:5 Newcomb

27:15 next4:24 6:17

9:9,14 14:3 29:12 39:22 43:21 44:12 49:14 54:15 67:11 85:11 85:14 86:2 89:16,20 NIA6:2 nice 89:4 nicely29:19 Nicholas 2:3 Nick3:9 Nieto2:4 Nightmare

59:23 nine 72:10

73:7 nodding 20:12

90:15 non-product...

72:16 none23:16 NOPR 5:9

11:14,23 12:3 13:17 13:21,25 23:4,5,13 24:3 30:19 39:9,21 65:17 67:14 67:14 77:7 81:9,22 82:22 83:8 83:11,25 86:23,24 87:14,15,18 88:1 94:20 97:13,15 98:5 NOPRs 87:22 nor53:10

108:8,10 normal 7:19

38:12 60:24 normally60:9

106:24 northwest

3:14 27:14 28:23 notably5:12 noted 19:25 notes 38:18 47:18,22 73:1 nothing 19:9

31:13,16 55:13 notice 38:3

65:17 noticed 44:23 noticing 14:22 notified 59:20 notion 82:24 NPB 11:10 NPBs 76:16 NPVs 9:14 number 10:10

11:10 13:9 18:15,16 25:18,22 26:20 27:17 32:17 41:24 50:22 55:1 67:24 69:10 69:11 70:6 71:20 72:1,3 73:19,22 75:16,23,24 81:11 82:11 numbers 5:10

5:13,15,22 7:1,4,13,22 8:3,5,12,18 9:4,7,8,11,11 9:12 10:3 11:3 14:10 16:7 19:12 34:15,19 35:16,17 36:3,6,9,13 36:16 37:5 38:2,5,14,24 38:25 39:1,8 39:9,14,19 43:4 47:25

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 18 48:7 49:6,7 51:13 52:15 59:13 65:12 65:17,19 67:6 68:14 71:17 72:5 72:14,22 73:5,9 74:6 74:12 75:9 77:7 80:10 84:3,6,10 86:13,17 93:17 95:8 96:6,17 98:5 101:10 102:1 102:6,7,8 O O 3:1 o'clock59:16

62:18 78:17 79:3 101:17 104:14 106:10 objective

87:16 obvious80:11 obviously

26:24 31:12 34:9 occurrence

17:11 occurs 27:10 OEM 93:17 OEMs 93:1,12

96:1 off 15:25 23:15

32:18 60:6 65:24 66:2 79:6,14 80:21 83:2 83:23,23 86:19 101:5 offer31:13 46:15 81:4 82:5 92:7,23 94:9 Office 3:24 officially 107:9

107:10 often 80:23 Oh 51:21 52:8

60:1 102:16 105:1 oil 58:18 oils 58:3,21

59:3 okay4:16,20

10:9 12:24 19:20 30:11 30:17 33:10 33:17 36:11 37:2 39:5 43:21 46:13 51:16 53:25 54:14 56:20 59:18 63:4 69:6 75:18 78:14 80:9 80:22 83:1,9 84:13,15 85:23 86:7 86:10 90:9 90:10,22 94:18 95:20 100:5 101:1 101:7 105:1 105:3 106:9 old 9:11,12 onboard 46:2

91:18 once 89:24 one's 95:12 ones 16:7 64:6

64:22 69:2 93:2 online 3:5 onto43:20 open 21:2 22:16 31:13 opened 47:1 operating 43:3

46:5 97:10 operation

15:15 operational

37:18 opinions

13:24 opposed

85:23 opposite

55:10 options23:1

59:2 order 17:18

53:24 71:19 72:1 organization

65:2 94:2 organizations

22:18,20 91:14,14 original 11:23

98:5 otherwise

31:16 83:4 outcome

57:10,17 82:21 83:11 87:16,25 91:21 outcomes

80:3 outlook8:14

23:12 outside39:1

53:18 61:4 91:14 outstanding

5:19 14:18 over 13:19 18:5 23:8 35:13,23 37:6,14,16 38:10,15 43:1 49:14 61:19 67:21 75:2 84:10 89:12 93:18 96:9 105:24 overall 25:15 overcome

17:10 own 22:18,21

34:5 52:5 58:15 74:9 94:1 owners 64:17 P P 1:4,4 3:1 package 6:12

22:13 79:15 81:3 pad 86:18 paint74:18 paper52:18

86:18 parch 68:2 parens 38:24

38:25 39:14 parenthesis

39:11,12 part 17:5,6,14

20:9,10,19 28:16 32:14 34:9,18 45:10,15 47:22 48:17 49:12,15,20 50:2 70:23 73:11 74:14 74:16 76:22 78:6 90:15 104:7 participate 63:8,11 participating

93:7 particular

15:24 20:15 49:22 particularly

21:23 parties 76:1

78:2 80:4 108:8 parties' 108:9 parts 66:24 passes 60:14 past66:20

81:11 96:9 pat49:24 path 25:21

26:2,8 83:18 pathways

95:17 Paul 1:13 peculiarities

7:19 pencil 43:3 people21:1

23:18 27:9 34:4,5 47:18 55:15 60:13 64:24 71:24 72:18 75:3 76:19,21 96:3 101:22 106:20,24 per 13:3,17

51:8,10 52:12 64:6 66:10,15,17 72:11 86:24 percent 8:2,18

8:20 9:10,14 16:15 17:18 17:21,23

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 19 19:23 38:10 40:20 43:18 45:5 46:6,25 48:20 66:8 66:15 68:8 70:14 71:3 72:17 81:15 81:16 84:7,8 84:12,12,19 86:22,23 95:12,25 97:4,9 percentage

17:11 19:14 42:7,9 66:7 84:15 percentages

70:24 perfect54:4,8 performance

58:7 perhaps 70:5

85:7 101:17 period 38:10 permissible

30:9 person 103:9 personalize

75:3 personally

23:16,20 33:13 49:21 63:9 perspective

11:2 15:18 78:9 89:23 99:12 perspectives

97:16 pessimistic

46:4 PG&E 3:16

11:13 14:19 15:4 36:17 37:1 47:15 Ph.D 1:5 2:9 phase 81:18

85:21 86:9,9 105:22 phone 16:11

33:6 63:7 88:17 phrase29:23 pick31:22

103:9 picked 18:7,11 picking 93:16 picture 77:1 piece 6:20

64:18 70:7 pieces 6:24 place 5:3 81:1

82:12 93:18 plan 49:1

57:12 72:25 72:25 100:14 105:6,9,18 plane 91:3 plant67:23

68:6 69:2,12 74:15 plants 68:10

68:15 75:4 play32:15 please 39:2

86:20 plucking 13:10 plus 69:25 pocket31:8,8 POE 57:23 point5:22

12:18 16:12 17:15 19:2 20:21 24:21 26:9 34:8 39:3 43:9 44:23 50:19 50:23 52:21 53:4 54:5 67:8 77:2 80:11,17,23 80:25,25,25 81:9 85:9,9 93:4 96:8,10 97:20 98:9 98:10 99:14 105:18 pointed 20:13

43:8 80:12 pointing 73:18 points 17:24

30:12 35:1 84:2 policy 13:17 population

21:21 portion 68:16 pose 30:22 position 5:9

24:21 88:25 94:20,21 positions 5:8 possible 35:16

35:17 50:1 75:5 potential

64:23 power 19:3,3,6

19:7 practical 27:2

89:21 practically

26:15 practices

87:14 prefer31:23

48:3 preference

33:20 35:12 preparation

63:13 prepared 5:1 29:19 31:9 32:23 35:25 80:21 present 9:9

34:10 36:9 46:6,25 86:22 93:3 presented 6:7

36:6 37:11 37:12 67:4 90:10 presenting

37:5 59:14 preservation

43:2,2 46:5 pressure 17:9

17:10 24:17 27:21 pressures

15:16,20 21:22 27:15 27:18 presume

44:23 pretty6:13

16:14 43:8 53:13,17 55:2 70:22 71:6 73:7 105:25 previous

11:16 18:20 38:1,23 39:1 44:15,25 46:22 previously

9:16 20:13 85:3 primarily36:4 primary7:12

25:2 41:22 41:25,25 102:9 prior 17:20 40:1,10 probably6:18

9:5 21:22 22:5 23:11 23:12 36:7 53:2 54:22 61:25 67:18 67:23 72:17 76:3 91:23 97:25 104:18 problegate

98:16 problem 17:5

17:6 procedure

15:19,24,25 20:8 21:19 25:5,24 26:1 27:11,22 28:11 29:2,4 88:25 89:3 89:13,25 procedures

21:9 proceed 79:4 proceeding

25:21 89:10 proceedings

108:5 process 12:2

23:21 49:15 56:7 82:20 82:23 91:22 processes

53:15 proclaiming

25:22 produce 64:5 product8:22

8:25,25 25:16 26:13 26:14,17 32:25 39:6 42:10 44:17

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 20 44:19,20 45:8,11 46:12 51:3 52:19 53:21 53:21 54:5 66:23 67:12 68:5,10,11 69:4 70:1 76:23 production

37:9 66:9,18 67:5,19 69:24 72:15 74:12 76:23 productions

70:15 productive

33:20 107:11 products

21:21 23:22 42:18,20 49:9 68:7 72:19 74:14 90:4 profiles 18:25 profit46:5

97:10 programs 85:1 progress 5:5 Project3:19 projected

96:14 projecting

55:20,21 properly8:2

38:2 proportional

41:11 proposal 6:6

9:22,22,25 10:1,6 11:4 14:7 22:23 31:7 34:9,13 34:21 48:3 55:6 84:2,18 85:9 88:23 94:16 proposals 5:5

5:23 9:20 11:3 14:6 22:22 36:1 36:14 37:17 37:23 43:23 46:10 propose48:20

84:14 proposed 12:5

13:17 22:19 22:20 23:5 24:22 25:3 30:14,15,19 46:19 81:17 82:2 83:13 84:4 86:16 proposition

65:4 provide4:25

28:24 50:12 71:12 77:7 provided 8:12

22:10 provides 9:19

14:3 76:22 public 12:2

61:23 97:2 publication

12:19 publish 66:6

88:8 published

65:17 publishes

12:14 66:1 publishing

84:23 pulling 31:20

77:19 punch 34:1 purchase 76:21 purchases

77:11 purely65:5 purposes 9:10 pushing 44:5 put9:21 15:19

33:20 55:24 76:5 78:14 85:1 87:18 99:1 100:3 putting 17:6

32:3 46:22 92:3 Q quad 11:3 84:7

102:6,7 quads 13:18

25:22 30:14 30:17 32:11 34:2 84:7,8 86:21,24 87:25 100:12 100:22,22 102:4 qualitatively

54:25 Quality49:13 question

12:13 14:20 15:2,10 17:4 18:1 29:17 30:21 31:4 32:22 35:11 39:25 45:10 50:9 56:22 57:1,20,21 57:22 62:23 62:25 63:5 68:18 104:8 questions

14:15 22:2 70:8 75:6 77:10 88:18 88:20,22 91:7 quick 12:9

57:22 59:19 62:1 102:6 quickly 11:12

86:4,4 quit99:17 quite7:15

20:11 27:10 27:12 29:19 58:11 67:23 75:9 78:13 83:21 87:15 88:1 R R 1:4 3:1 R-22 53:21 R-32 58:25 R&D38:1,13

45:3,6,16 47:8 48:17 55:20 56:1 raise 5:3 raised 15:24 Ramirez2:5

3:2,6 6:3 12:8 14:15 19:19 21:11 22:7 31:5,18 33:17 35:5 35:12,22 36:24 37:2 41:17 50:7 56:4,19 59:10,18,24 60:1,20 61:3 61:9,12,17 62:5,12,17 63:15 64:25 65:11 67:25 68:4 70:8 71:16,25 75:6,25 77:15,19 78:1,13,23 79:2,8,13,19 79:22 90:21 91:1,7 92:11 100:13,15 101:2,5 102:10,16 103:7,11,21 104:6,21 105:1,23 106:2,9,13 106:15 107:3 107:8 ran 87:6,7 range 6:23

30:25 52:6 72:12 76:17 96:14,16 Ransom 2:6

4:12,12 Raquel 2:4 4:4 rate 9:15 70:18

86:22,23 rather7:17

86:6 rating 26:17 ratios 51:11 reach 24:12

30:7 33:12 91:20 reaction 54:1

54:2 read 86:19 ready5:1

62:16 77:25 78:13 real 9:15 23:18

23:18 27:4 34:4,4 75:16 98:11

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 21 realistic 48:10

98:7 104:16 realistically

6:18 45:22 reality71:15 realize 22:5

28:3 98:11 99:4 really5:4,24

6:5,11 12:8 14:9,23 16:17 18:3 21:25 23:16 25:4 27:25 35:11 42:17 44:3 48:2,12 50:4 52:17 57:21 65:24 71:3 74:13 82:23 94:18 95:9 96:5 98:24 106:19 rearview33:20 reason 6:17

16:1 49:24 54:25 55:5 85:13 88:9 104:7 reasonable

45:15 52:20 54:22,24 reasonably

91:25 reasons 56:12

56:13 rebates 28:2 recalibrated

38:6,6 receive 104:19 received 39:10

41:8 recent 37:10

39:10 recess 59:17 79:7 101:4 recognize 70:5

100:22 recollection

16:9,10 recommend...

78:2 reconcile 74:2

74:5 record 12:10

14:2 41:17 58:13 79:6 79:10 97:2 108:6 recorder37:2 redesign 49:9

52:19 54:9 54:10 85:21 redesigning

27:19 reduce46:5,24

48:16 55:9 55:18,25 64:11 81:12 reduced 48:15 reduces 8:16

81:9 83:17 95:1 reductions

14:4 82:16 84:17 reengaging

24:19 reestimating

67:15 refer 11:23

88:3 reference

63:21 referring 11:19 reflect20:18

34:14 36:1 38:8 45:21 reflection 42:23 reflective57:5

65:21 67:9 reflects 41:7 refresh 11:13 refrigerant

49:8,10,15 50:20 51:4 51:19 52:7 52:13 53:1 54:10 55:3 58:6 97:23 refrigerants

53:8 59:3 82:8 refrigeration

27:5,12 51:14 66:4 99:8 regard 89:13

97:25 Regarding

19:12 regardless

27:24 Register61:25 regular 106:17 regulations

47:13 reiterate 11:16 related 54:9

69:17 relationship

57:14 72:3 relative 9:11

108:7,9 relatively38:6

85:12,13,19 86:4 reluctant

50:15 remainder

68:20 remaining 7:7 22:10,12 77:22 remains 43:13 remark77:18 remarks 94:3 remember5:7

6:5 7:14 16:16 18:6 56:16 64:12 64:23 remembered

8:6 reminder8:20

9:23 repair7:21 8:1 repairs 7:16

7:21 repeat 15:2 replace 55:23 replaced 7:17 replacement

53:18 66:24 replacing

38:13 replenish 45:7

45:9 reported 8:21

9:6,12,17 17:20 Reporter

108:1,4 reports 9:9,14 represent4:13

91:13,18 representative

18:8,9 57:2 94:8 represented

64:21 reprocessed

12:3 request31:10

101:13 require 102:23 required 52:5 82:3 86:1 requirements

47:12 reside 12:4 residential

23:22 99:9 resources

28:21,24 respect 75:3

80:9 85:2 respectful

104:12 respectfully

77:9 respond 91:25 response

22:21 65:8 rest 15:18 restate 69:17 result 7:22

8:17 13:16 14:4 19:8 20:23 81:7 82:25 83:6 95:19 results 9:18,20

21:20 35:25 36:1 37:22 42:4 43:22 43:23 55:14 56:3 80:3 81:6 86:17 101:19,20 retail 21:23 retiree 74:23 return 10:10 revenue45:5

66:8,14 70:14,24 revenue-wise

51:15 revenues

42:16 66:6

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 22 review38:17

65:12 reviewed

22:16 revise86:2 revised 9:18

33:3 36:3,4 37:5 38:22 39:19 40:25 50:13 65:19 81:4 83:25 84:18 85:20 89:2 revision 8:1

31:7,8 33:3 34:23 50:1 85:10,16 revisions 5:11

6:2 rewind 77:9 Rheem 3:12

52:23 right3:2 6:4

6:12 7:3 10:5 11:15 12:7 13:5,7,8,12 13:20,22 15:8 16:19 16:22 17:24 19:10 22:8 25:21 26:11 27:7 29:10 29:21 30:8 32:3,12,14 34:25 40:18 41:3,6 43:14 43:24 44:7 44:17 45:12 47:1 48:11 48:14 49:11 49:15 50:12 50:23 54:8 54:14,16,18 54:19 55:19 56:5,8 58:21 60:8 61:22 63:16 64:25 65:11 66:23 68:21,23,25 69:11,14,19 69:20 70:17 70:20,25 72:10,17 73:25 74:4 76:1,8,11 77:5,20 78:7 78:14 79:8 79:14 86:19 87:10 90:7 91:4 93:7 95:5 96:2,18 99:14,23 101:2,5 102:12 103:16 104:2 104:6 105:3 105:12 106:5 106:9 right-hand

46:2 rightly73:17 river35:20,21 Rivest2:7 4:3

4:3 36:12 37:4,4 39:5 39:12,17,19 39:23 40:3,5 40:16,24 41:3,6,12,16 42:6 43:11 43:14,19 45:25 46:7 46:14,18 47:1,6,17 48:5,8,14 50:10,12 51:6,13,21 51:25 52:8 52:10,16 53:25 54:8 54:14,16 55:13,18 56:6,10,13 70:10,10,18 70:22,25 71:2,7,12 72:24 102:15 102:18 103:17 road 85:18

90:17 Robert2:18

4:18 robust-type

28:10 robustness

29:5 role 31:25 roll 7:7 rolling 59:12

60:20 room 59:8

61:15 66:20 72:9 93:2,14 99:4 101:22 105:21 rooms 70:11

84:9 rooted 89:15 Rosenquist

2:8 4:2,2 7:10 10:9,17 11:8,15 12:17,22,24 14:3 15:2,11 17:15 18:19 rosy23:12

41:24 42:1,4 rough 36:5 roughly51:5

57:23,25 66:6,8,9,14 72:10 round 52:15 row 9:13,16,17 RTU 52:7 rule 12:15,20

13:2 33:15 46:20 55:3 65:23,23 75:22,23 82:3 83:14 84:4 rule-making

86:1 rule-makings

44:15,25 99:13 rules 21:1

45:14 54:21 56:7 84:9 85:18 90:17 ruling 78:11 run 25:23

32:23,24 33:6 41:13 42:2 48:20 50:9,13 66:1 81:3 86:12 86:17 101:11 102:1 running 56:5

58:13 runs 101:25 rush 49:3 Rusty2:15

3:10 10:7 13:23 21:5,7 21:11 24:23 24:25 49:4 49:19 51:18 52:5 54:12 55:8 92:1 99:3 Rusty's50:19

94:4 S S 1:4 2:25 3:1

108:3,17 Sachs 2:9 3:11

3:11 11:22 12:6 34:22 35:2,4,8,14 35:21 49:19 49:21 50:25 51:12 52:3,9 52:11 57:19 58:12,15 59:6 65:1 74:7 75:11 75:15,19 77:3,8 88:19 93:24 100:17 105:20 sake 96:23 sale 70:14 salute 65:2 Sam 1:25 4:18 same 9:15

10:1 13:16 18:15,16 23:1 25:19 25:19 26:4 26:13,17,17 26:20 34:11 34:15 37:13 43:7 46:10 50:21,24 51:5 55:22 56:14 57:23 57:25 58:4,4 69:2 73:8 82:9,24 86:11,16 87:8,21,24 94:4 99:10 99:25 100:11 101:23 106:1 Sami 2:23 3:22

10:14 16:4

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 23 25:13 57:21 58:2 92:25 93:24 95:21 107:6 sat 84:9 satisfied 7:3 saved 13:19

25:22 34:2 savings 7:23

8:18 9:8 11:10,10 13:8,18 15:8 16:24 25:3,7 25:18,20 26:20 28:1 28:15 34:11 34:17,20 64:23 73:15 81:7 82:15 82:15,22 83:3,7,12,16 83:24 84:5 84:16 86:21 86:22,24 87:4,9,14,15 87:21 94:19 94:23 98:14 saw 8:3 41:19

59:7 say6:2 12:1

20:7 21:5 22:12 32:1 39:15 40:8 41:9,23 43:24,25 44:5,11 45:1 45:15 46:19 49:4 52:21 54:7 57:10 57:15 63:23 65:8 66:21 74:8 78:17 82:17 83:21 84:15 89:7 91:2 92:14 92:22 96:20 96:22 97:6 99:15 106:7 saying 6:13

13:14 15:7 18:13 47:2 47:14 48:9 48:16 83:14 89:1,6 says54:19

74:25 scenario 12:13

13:6 23:11 39:25 40:4 41:13,24 46:4 50:15 80:18 87:6,7 96:19 102:22 scenarios

32:23 37:12 37:20,22 40:1 43:1 50:9 96:18 101:10 102:3 102:8,15 School 74:11 scope 99:5 screen 29:20 se 52:12 64:6 second 6:10

9:17 10:18 45:12 63:2 74:11,12 100:21 105:22 Secondly

81:23 secure 103:13 security62:15

106:22 see 3:5 5:14

5:14 6:9 7:7 8:19 9:11 10:3 11:10 11:20 14:10 18:13 19:12 26:19 32:7,9 35:12 36:2 38:17,23 43:23 47:5 48:22 51:21 55:14,16 56:2 60:9,13 61:18 77:22 79:4,5 80:17 80:22 82:21 85:16 88:9 88:14 92:8,8 93:18 95:24 98:6 101:21 102:12 107:10 seeing 7:1

17:14 28:1 39:5 57:25 76:17 seen 59:8 segway22:8 select 58:10 selected 18:24 selection 19:5 sell 64:15 selling 64:6,7 send 5:1

102:20 103:15,20 senior21:9 sense 27:8

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17:7 19:24 several 33:11

41:20 44:8 47:19,23 49:15 59:2 73:13 74:9 93:16 102:2 severe40:14

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93:14 shareholders

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28:4 Shorthand

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31:3 32:21 35:23 50:20 93:13 94:7 96:21,23,24 106:18 sides 6:8,12

32:8,17 60:10 79:2,2 sights 83:8,9 signed 97:6 significant

7:13 8:5

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 24 23:15 24:11 53:17 72:6 81:19 82:2,4 83:20,21 91:12 significantly

43:15 67:17 similar56:12

56:13 87:15 88:1 90:4 simple 71:24 simultaneous

61:21 92:20 since 7:25

37:7 88:12 94:16 single 93:19 single-tier

39:20 sir92:5 sit 13:21 57:15

72:24 76:7 91:6 sitting 60:13 situation

58:19 97:8 size 32:15 51:5

73:8 93:11 slide 5:21 9:9

9:14,19 10:25 13:11 14:3,21 15:6 23:19 29:19 36:19 39:22 41:19 42:25 43:21 44:12 45:24 46:23 80:10,16,16 slides 11:16

35:3,4 46:22 slightly40:19

42:4 46:19 slow 38:11 small 6:24 10:8 14:22 15:5 29:25 74:21 86:10 86:11 87:9,9 87:23 93:11 smaller53:20

68:16 84:10 98:6 Smith 2:12 smooth 43:6 smooths43:4

83:18 society74:22 softens 82:17 solely25:9 solution 28:21 some 5:10

6:24 7:11,19 10:15 11:2 13:24 14:1 16:10 21:8,8 21:18 23:8 25:24 26:4 28:4,6,14,24 29:1,15,16 29:17 32:16 33:24 34:19 34:24 36:5 38:18 42:3 47:7,8,9,24 48:9,14 52:14 56:2 57:24,25 58:8,9,20,21 58:22 59:13 59:20 60:16 60:16 62:7 63:22 64:9 64:10,21 65:12,15,18 65:19 66:19 67:1,7,22 68:7 70:7 72:18,22 74:5,22 77:23 78:23 78:23,24 80:5,8 81:9 89:23,24 91:11 93:22 95:16 98:25 101:6,21,22 102:15,18,23 104:11,12 106:25 somebody

60:22 somehow 57:8

69:16 someone 18:5

63:21 something

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32:2 64:4 99:19 104:9 somewhat

31:20 somewhere

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62:20 85:12 85:13,19 89:21 91:5 sooner86:6 sorry33:24 38:24 47:21 51:12 61:9 63:17 86:14 97:1,5 102:16 104:21 105:23 106:13 sort7:19 26:5

31:7,14 43:4 44:13,14 63:24 64:10 69:15 84:13 sorts 74:18 sounded

88:25 sounds 11:6

61:5 speak 12:10

39:2 41:15 53:4 SPEAKER

4:16 36:21 36:22 61:1 62:10,14,19 62:22 63:1 63:12 77:25 90:25 92:19 102:2,7 105:13 speaking

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11:17,17 14:5 29:12 30:11 39:7 39:20 44:11 45:18 46:23 48:18 54:11 54:21 64:1,8 76:7 80:7,24 81:2,15,24 84:22 85:12 85:22 87:8 89:10 98:19 standards

3:19 4:1 7:16 37:16 56:1 64:13 72:5 81:13,16 standpoint

27:2,3 Starbucks

106:5 stares 22:2 Starr2:13 3:14

3:14 17:4,5 18:1 19:9 26:23 34:7,7 56:21 start33:21

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 25 56:2 59:15 60:19 79:14 104:16 started 3:3,4

7:6 62:17 63:19 79:9 87:17 89:16 starting 15:21

52:21 92:8 105:7 107:4 starts 17:25,25

62:14 Stas 2:14 3:23

3:23 62:3 state 12:9

41:17 stated 23:13

25:23 32:11 48:2 statement

54:1,2 static 15:15,18

15:20 17:8,9 21:22 24:17 27:14,18,21 statute 13:3 stay95:3 staying 101:1 steady38:8 step 6:10 Steven 1:23

4:19 stick61:1 still 5:4,8 23:6

24:10,13 34:23 37:9 42:5 43:7 63:11 66:19 67:17 83:15 83:15 90:24 96:10 98:25 105:17 stimulated

57:20 stipulation 73:4 stock7:14,22

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102:19 straw 89:14

100:21 stretch 4:21 strictly44:4 strikes 48:23

48:25 55:4 73:3 stringency

97:22 stringent

10:22 structure55:7 structured

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53:12 63:14 65:12 68:8 74:18 76:19 93:3 99:9 107:1 Stuttgart68:6 submitted

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69:15 success 33:12 suggest 77:9

85:8,25 94:15 97:14 103:10 suggested

20:20 57:22 60:15 suggestion

32:18 60:17 61:16 62:7,8 suggests 61:3 summary

100:18 supervisor

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22:21,24 24:14 supported

23:23 supposedly

56:17 sure 16:11

29:10 38:2 39:23 45:25 46:1 53:13 55:2 58:14 75:12 86:19 86:19 91:17 94:6,14 102:19 survey65:25 suspect 73:9 suspend 42:10 sympathetic

74:10 synergies

44:22 47:7 48:9 56:2 synergy49:25

52:14 Syracuse

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23:17 32:7 35:9 36:21 47:6,7 50:18 55:18,24 56:5 59:11 59:18 60:5 64:24 66:12 66:15 77:22 78:18,19 85:20 88:18 93:20 94:18 94:21,22 97:13,17 100:4 101:11 102:11 taken 14:21

45:14 59:17 79:7 97:22 101:4 takes 58:9

99:19 taking 46:1

84:19 talk5:22 19:21

22:4 29:4 33:2 61:18 67:6 94:10 94:16 talked 5:12

24:18 30:3 80:5 102:21 talking 12:13 12:14 15:3 27:15 28:19 32:5 34:2 35:9 43:15 45:3,4 49:17 51:8,9 55:5 63:23 67:10 70:12 72:18 73:11 90:24 92:14,15 98:3 talks 81:12 tape 77:9 taxi 60:6 team 88:3 teams 31:6 tech's 23:1 technologic...

26:7 technologies

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20:20 84:21 tentatively

81:15 82:12 term 5:3 69:23 100:20 terms 5:1 29:1

34:14 36:5 43:9,10 81:19 83:22 84:4,16 85:25 87:25

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 26 88:3 90:16 95:10 102:24 106:23 test 15:24,25 16:25 19:1 20:8,22 21:8 21:19 25:4 25:24,25 27:11,22 28:11 29:1,4 52:19 85:2,4 85:6,10,16 85:20 88:25 89:1,3,9,10 89:13,25 90:12 testing 59:3 tests 16:20 than 7:17 14:11 17:19 23:22 26:5 27:21 31:15 31:19 46:19 52:9 53:2,14 59:8 66:19 67:12 73:5 73:19 74:3 83:4,7,11 86:6,24 87:14 96:2 98:6 99:11 104:15 106:20 thank 12:6

34:6 37:1 39:18 60:1 64:25 65:7,8 79:13 88:15 91:10 101:2 101:3 107:5 107:6,6,12 thanks 16:3

40:4 59:16 64:24 79:18 100:16 103:17 104:6 106:3 Tharp2:15

3:10,10 10:7 10:7,12 13:23,23 21:7,7 24:25 24:25 49:4,4 49:20 51:18 51:18,23 54:12,12,15 55:8,8 92:3,6 103:5,10,15 104:18 105:4 105:15,17 therefore

54:10 thing 6:17 7:8

34:8 63:24 66:21 74:7 74:11,12 99:25 101:14 101:23 102:9 things4:22 6:5

7:12 8:10 21:3 28:2,6 29:11 30:1,2 31:21,22 41:20 42:8 44:16 47:11 49:1,2,5 57:11 63:22 67:18 74:15 74:16 75:20 76:22 79:25 87:19 88:14 93:25 94:17 95:22 96:8 99:6,7,8 100:18 think5:4,9,16

6:15 9:4 14:1 15:13 16:16 16:22 17:3,7 17:23 18:5 19:15 20:4 20:11,14,19 21:11,14 22:20 24:9 25:20 26:5 27:15 28:23 29:9 30:12 30:23 31:3 31:11,17 33:13,18,24 34:8,20,25 35:11 36:7 38:9,25 40:16 41:15 45:15,21 46:17 50:11 50:17 51:18 52:24 53:4 53:17,19 54:24 56:4 57:12,15,21 59:7 62:17 63:12,20 64:4,12,14 64:19,21 66:19 67:1,5 67:16,17,17 69:2,24 72:2 72:6 73:21 73:22 75:2 75:19 76:1,2 76:5,10,13 76:14 78:1,9 80:1,9 82:1 83:8 84:20 85:4,18 87:2 87:3,12 89:22,22,24 90:16 91:23 92:7,9,12 93:14,16 95:2,17 96:7 96:21,22 97:17 100:17 101:9,22 103:5 104:18 105:21 106:20 thinking 29:8

44:14 58:15 80:8 92:11 93:25 104:10 105:7 thinks 58:25 third 85:9,9 thought 19:13

21:3 28:13 31:10 70:4 75:15 79:23 89:18 93:10 102:23 thoughts 92:2

95:19 three 12:15,21 12:22,23,24 13:3,24 46:10,12 68:15 96:9 three-stage

20:1 throw22:25 throwing

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44:18 45:12 46:7,15,16 48:4,10 81:23 82:5,6 87:24 89:2,3 tiers 44:15 tighter 104:22 time5:5,7,12 5:14 14:1 20:12 32:8 32:20 34:11 35:5,6,15 36:15 37:11 40:6 42:2,12 43:1 44:4,9 48:25 50:21 50:24 56:8 56:15,16 60:19,22 62:13 63:5 64:7 76:11 78:15,19 80:12,17 81:6 82:7,9 85:15 86:16 89:17 91:16 92:11,12,14 92:19 96:8 99:19 100:13 102:11,12,24 104:10,17,25 timeline 104:22 times 25:10

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26:9,9 46:22 84:10 100:25 101:17 told 74:4

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 27 tomorrow4:22

59:21 60:17 60:19,21 62:18,24 75:24 102:13 104:1 105:14 107:11 ton 17:7 19:24 tonight 101:14 102:12,12,13 102:20 103:1 103:20 tons 69:5,8 took 12:1 69:7

69:8,11,19 69:22 70:17 71:9,10 94:4 tool 10:20

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89:20 top-downs

71:14 topic20:12,13 Toro 1:12 4:17 total 51:2 72:4

72:18 totals 8:19 touch 70:1 103:23 touching 70:2 towards 26:2

27:5,11,25 33:21,22 45:11 91:19 track5:4 82:1 Trane4:9 68:9

97:1 transcribe 108:4 TRANSCRIB... 2:25 transcript 108:5 transfer25:13 transformers

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8:9,13,15 trial 8:20 11:17 14:4 39:7 trick31:20 trouble46:21

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32:5 49:25 79:16 91:5 91:20 trying 13:20

28:2,17,20 35:15 50:5 52:11,15 54:23 57:8 59:4,24 60:2 64:10 65:20 69:15,17 71:19 73:12 75:17 77:21 80:1 91:18 91:22 92:23 94:8,17,19 94:25 95:6 95:16 96:22 98:24 99:25 105:21 TSL 13:21 17:12 57:2 TSL-1 39:15 40:20 47:3 47:16,20,24 48:15 TSL-2 8:24

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96:7 user 16:24

64:16 users 98:12 uses 26:14 usually60:6

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 28 utilities 84:25 utility24:3 V valid 96:10,11 value9:10 11:23 34:10 42:8 44:4,9 46:6,25 65:3 69:16 84:6 84:16,22 86:22 89:2,3 values25:4

66:13,13 84:23,24 89:9 variability

21:15 22:2 variables

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81:19 83:20 83:20 viewpoint

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94:13 W Wade 2:12 wage 66:9

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77:16 week8:3,12

8:21 9:6,12

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 29 9:17,21 36:6 37:24 38:21 39:8 46:10 46:14 weeks 8:7

33:11 93:2 weighted 27:4

27:11 Welcome 3:2 went 18:14,15

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67:10 1.25 21:21 1.3 51:8,10 1:00 78:17,20

79:3,6 10 8:2,18 35:6

59:15 84:6 84:12 95:11

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 30 10,000 72:15 100 68:15 101 68:13 102 68:13 11:00 59:16 11th 99:19

108:12 12.1 30:16

32:13 12.6 11:6 13 43:19 14-A53:21 14.77 18:25 14.8 16:13 15 35:6 43:19

84:7 15,000 72:18

73:6 15.4 86:21 15.7 86:22 15.78 19:3 15.8 16:13 15th 4:23 16.3 11:2,19

11:22,25 13:9,18 30:20 86:23 160 69:5,8 17th 5:2 18 89:2 93:8 18.2 30:14

32:12 180 89:25 19 10:16 47:3

54:22 55:20 1st 12:18 86:2

86:3 2 2 6:23 8:24

31:12 39:16 40:19 43:18 43:18 45:5 46:16 48:16 81:18 82:6 85:21 86:9 2,500 66:17

67:4,6 2.0 10:8 2.00 11:9 2.5 9:25 10:8

14:8 43:5,18 43:18 44:6 46:16 47:3 67:4 2.5K67:16 20 8:20 36:8

43:16,16 46:3 70:11 72:17 99:13 2011 10:23 2013 66:1 2014 45:20 2015 1:3

108:12 2018 9:24 10:2

10:16,22 44:19 46:8 82:4 86:3 2019 10:22

11:14,18,21 12:14,18 39:20 44:6 44:11,18 45:2 46:8,15 46:24 82:3 87:17 2021 10:24 2022 10:3 44:6

44:21 45:20 84:19 86:15 87:12 2024 9:25

10:24,24 44:7,11,21 45:2 46:3,16 56:23 57:16 59:5 2025 85:24 22.3 46:25 23 45:6 48:17

55:20 2447:4 54:22

55:21,21 68:1 24.9 46:18 25 95:25 97:9 25,000 74:20 25.8 46:6 26 45:6,7

55:19,22 268,000 66:15 3 3 6:22 9:2,10

14:23 16:13 17:25 20:7 21:22 29:24 42:13 43:15 43:25 44:6 52:7 86:10 86:11,12,22 89:2 3,000 73:20 3.5 9:1,3 14:22

14:23 16:13 17:19 18:4 19:23 20:9 29:24 39:21 42:13 43:9 80:11,12,13 86:10,10,11 86:11 87:3,4 87:5,12 88:10,13 89:3 3:00 63:1,2,4 30 17:21 97:4

97:9 30-year38:10 30,000-foot

77:18 31 66:6 67:11 310 20:9 32 51:7,15,16

51:17 52:1 333415 66:2 36,000 70:19 37 66:9 71:7 37.7 66:17 38,000 66:10 4 4 6:23 10:2

14:23 43:11 43:11,14 44:1 80:12 80:13 93:22 4:00 62:24 40 38:10 97:9 410-As58:1 5 5 22:25 39:21

43:11,11,14 49:14 51:16 51:16 84:7 84:11 5,000 73:20 5.4 14:23 15:9 5.8 14:23 15:8 5043:18 48:20

72:17 76:17 50/50 55:14,17

55:17 51.7 86:21 528 20:10 6 6 14:23 6.0 15:9 6.1 32:11,13 60 19:23 623 19:1 20:8 63 69:8 65 17:18 68:19 65K68:8 7 7 9:14 69:9

86:23 7,000 73:20 7:00 60:16

62:8 105:2,4 7:15 60:16

62:8 7:30 105:5,9

105:18,18 70 17:18,23

19:23 76:17 75 21:20 84:8 760 68:20 760,000 68:23 7742:25 80:17 8 8 13:11 14:21

15:6 66:8,15 70:13 71:2 72:15 8:00 60:19,20

102:20 104:14 8:30 62:14 80 68:8 800 72:12 81 81:15 84:19 82 81:16 872 68:11 69:9

69:119 9 1:3 16:15

70:14 71:3 9:00 62:18

101:17 104:16 105:7 105:10 106:10 9:30 104:16

105:15,17 106:12,13,14

## Meeting June 9, 2015

202-220-4158 www.hendersonlegalservices.com Henderson Legal Services, Inc. 31 106:15 107:5 107:11 90.1 23:23

47:16 96 66:16,17 970 19:4 20:9