O ffic e o f Infrast r uctur e Protection Nationa l Protect i on a n d Program s Directorate U. S . D e partment o f Homela n d S e curi t y Washington , D C 2 0528



### CHEMICAL FACILITY ANTI

- TERRORISM STANDARDS

ADVANCE NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING

LISTENING SESSION HELD IN SACRAMENTO, C A ON SEPTEMBER 23 , 2014

CONTENTS: Agenda Transcript

## Chemical Facility Anti

**- Terrorism Standards**  **Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (CFATS ANPRM)** 

**September 23**  **, 2014 Listening Session** 
Hosted by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)

– UC Davis Center Sacramento, Conference Room B, 1130 K Street, Suite LL22, Sacramento, CA 95814

**Agenda**

8:00 a .m. – 9 :00 a .m. Registration

9 :00 a .m. – 9: 2 0 a .m. Welcome, Introductions, and Overview Kate Finnerty , Facilitator

Bing Yee, Department of Homeland Security, Office of General Counsel Rodney Lockett, Department of Homeland Security , Chemical Facility Inspector

9 : 2 0 a .m. – 9:30 a .m. Listening Session Format Kate Finnerty , Facilitator

9:30 a.m.

– 11:00 a .m. Public Listening Session Comments from Listening Session Participants

11:0 0 a .m. – 11:15 a .m. BREAK

11:15 a.m.

– 12:15 p .m. Public Listening S ession Comments from Listening Session Participants

12 : 15 p.m. – 12 : 45 p.m. Open Session ( as time permits )

12 :45 p.m.

– 1 :00 p.m. Closing Comments

1 :00 p.m. Adjournment

Persons may also submit written comments to U.S. Department of Homeland Security, National Protection and Programs Directorate, Office of Infrastructure Protection, Infrastructure Security Compliance Division, 245 Murray Lane, Mail Stop 0610, Arlington, VA 205 2 8

- 0610 or through the Federal eRulemaki ng Portal at http://www.regulations.gov

.

For more information on the CFATS ANPRM, please visit https://www.dhs.gov/ CFATS

- Rulemaking

.1



### UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY

____________________ Advance Notice of : : Docket No. : DHS

- 2014

- 0016 Proposed Rulemaking :

: : RIN 1601

- AA69 6 Code of Federal : Regulations Part 27 : ___________________ :

TRANSCRIPT of the

CHEMICAL FACILITY ANTI

- TERRORISM STANDARDS

LISTENING SESSION

Tuesday, September 23, 2014

University of California Center Sacramento 1130 K Street, Suite LL22 Sacramento, California 95814

Staff in attendance

from DHS Headquarters:

Mary Blackmoor, Progr am Analyst Rodney Lockett, Regional Director,

Western District Carlos Vazquez, Director, Western District Portland Wilson, Program Analyst

Bing Yee, Attorney

- Advisor, Office of

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### 2

P

- R

- O

- C

- E

- E

- D

- I

- N

- G

- S 1



### (9:03 a.m.) 2



### MS. FINNERTY: Good morning, 3



### everyone. As everybody takes their seats, 4



### we'll go ahead and get started. 5



### Good morning and welcome to the 6



### listening session for the Chemical Facility 7



### Anti

- Terrorism Standards Advance Notice of 8



### Proposed Rulemaking, or CFATS ANPRM, that was 9



### issued by the U.S. Department of Homeland 10



### Security on August 18th, 2014. We're gl ad that 11



### you are here with us this morning. 12



### This is the fifth listening session 13



### in a series that will be held across the 14



### country, including six in person and two via 15



### webinar. My name is Kate Finnerty, with 16



### Energetics Incorporated. I'll be your 17



### moderator t oday, as arranged by the U.S. 18



### Department of Homeland Security. 19



### Before we get started I would like 20



### to make a couple of announcements. 21



### All stakeholders are welcome to 22

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submit written comments on the CFATS ANPRM. 1



### Besides commenting in person at a listening 2



### session, there are two other ways to submit 3



### those written comments. They are both listed 4



### on the agenda that was handed out at 5



### registra tion and they're also listed in the 6



### Federal Register Notice. They included the 7



### Federal eRulemaking Portal at 8



### www.regulations.gov, and also there is a 9



### physical mailing address listed should you not 10



### have internet access. 11



### The deadline to submit comments is 12



### O ctober 17th, 2014, which is 60 calendar days 13



### after publication of the ANPRM in the Federal 14



### Register . The comments provided during this 15



### session are being transcribed for notetaking 16



### purposes and a transcript of each listening 17



### session will be posted on a doc ket in the 18



### Federal Register at a later date. So please 19



### use available microphones if you would like to 20



### speak today. 21



### In case of emergency, there's a 22

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staircase right outside the door here to my 1



### left, to your right, that will take you straight 2



### up to the alley way. You'll be able to exit the 3



### building there. The restrooms are located, 4



### again, out this door, back past registration 5



### towards the elevator bank, and there are 6



### bathroom codes posted on the wall. And, 7



### finally, as a courtesy to e veryone 8



### participating, please do put your phones on 9



### silent. 10



### The purpose of today's session is to 11



### gather public comments, data, or views on how 12



### the current CFATS regulation, which is 6 CFR 13



### Part 27, issued in 2007, might be modified. 14



### Issuing the Advance Not ice of Proposed 15



### Rulemaking enables the Department to provide 16



### stakeholders with an opportunity to provide 17



### comments or suggestions for identifying ways to 18



### make the program more effective in achieving 19



### its regulatory objectives. 20



### As far as the process goes this 21



### morning, we'll begin with opening remarks, 22

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which will include a brief overview of the 1



### status of the CFATS program. And then the 2



### remainder the session is allocated to hearing 3



### from the stakeholders. 4



### At this time I would like to 5



### intr oduce Mr. Bing Yee, Attorney

- Advisor with 6



### the DHS Office of General Counsel. 7



### MR. YEE: Hello. 8



### MS. FINNERTY: There you go. 9



### (Referring to the microphone.) 10



### MR. YEE: Okay, there we go. It 11



### takes a little while for this to warm up, I 12



### guess. 13



### Okay. Thank you very much for 14



### introducing me and for presiding over today's 15



### session. 16



### Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for 17



### coming out today for this listening session on 18



### the CFATS ANPRM. I also want to thank 19



### obviously the University of California f or 20



### supplying us this venue. I want to acknowledge 21



### the ISCD staff that are here with me. You were 22

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greeted outside by Mary Blackmoor and Portland 1



### Wilson. In addition, to my left Rodney 2



### Lockett, and Carlos Vazquez,

-- Carlos, raise 3



### your hand

-- Carlos and Rodney are based here 4



### in the West Coast. They're the inspector 5



### supervisors in charge of Inspection 6



### Operations. And, I've actually had the 7



### pleasure of working with both of them quite a 8



### lot actually, especially Rodney. Because of 9



### their expertise and exper ience, they're 10



### actually called on a lot of times to come to 11



### Washington and to work on special projects. 12



### And it's been a great pleasure working with 13



### them. 14



### I obviously want to thank Director 15



### Dave Wulf, Deputy Director Scott Breor, and 16



### Policy and Rulemaking Branch Chief Amy Graydon 17



### for giving me the opportunity to come out here 18



### to Sacramento to serve as a panelist at this 19



### ANPRM listening session. 20



### I wasn't born or raised here, but I 21



### have a lot of roots here in Northern California. 22

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I ha ve family in San Francisco and actually here 1



### in Sacramento and in Elk Grove. So it's always 2



### a pleasure to come out here to be able to see 3



### them as well as make some visits. I'm going to 4



### take a personal prerogative to give a shout

- out 5



### to Sergeant Reid Harr is, the husband of my 6



### cousin, Eki. He's a sergeant at the Sacramento 7



### Police Department. I want to wish him a speedy 8



### recovery because he had some major foot 9



### surgery, so he's a little laid out right now. 10



### So hopefully he will be back on his feet in short 11



### o rder. 12



### As Kate mentioned, I am with the DHS 13



### Office of the General Counsel. And, yes, that 14



### means I am a lawyer. I don't work directly for 15



### Dave Wulf, but I work almost exclusively on 16



### CFATS issues. Just a little bit of a 17



### background, I came to DHS pretty much in its 18



### infancy. I started with the Transportation 19



### Security Administration in 2002, and you know 20



### that was created right around then. And then 21



### in 2008 I was asked to come over to something 22

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called the Chemical Facility Anti

- Terrori sm 1



### Standards, which was also in its infancy, so I 2



### kind of have a little history of that. 3



### I kind of remember my first week 4



### working with ISCD, one of my colleagues was 5



### actually working on issuing the Risk

- Based 6



### Performance Standards Guidance, so that kind of 7



### gives you a background of how much I have 8



### actually been able to see and witness in the 9



### last six years I have been with the program. 10



### And, yes, there have been a lot of 11



### fits and starts. Things didn't always really 12



### go smoothly, but you know I think we're in a very 13



### good place right now under the very capable 14



### leadership of Dave and Scott and people like 15



### Rodney and Carlos. 16



### I was handed a set of statistics 17



### this morning, as of September 22nd, the CFATS 18



### program covers 3,728 facilities, of w hich 3,092 19



### of them are final

- tier facilities. DHS has 20



### actually received around 4,600 Site Security 21



### Plans and Alternative Security Programs. Of 22

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these, 2,162 of them have been authorized. 1



### Carlos and Rodney and the inspectors over which 2



### they preside, acros s the country, they have 3



### performed 1,537 Authorization Inspections. 4



### And that has actually led DHS to giving

-- this 5



### is the most important statistic, which is we 6



### have approved 1,107 Site Security Plans and 7



### Alternative Security Programs. 8



### Now most of that pr ogress has 9



### actually been over the last two years, so when 10



### you think about that that's actually a really 11



### impressive figure. 12



### I want to actually touch on some of 13



### the other important work I work on now. If you 14



### recall, actually about a year ago, October 1st 15



### there was a government shutdown. And over 16



### about a 17

- day period the CFATS program 17



### stopped. I mean I couldn't go to work, Carlos 18



### couldn't go to work, Rodney couldn't go to work. 19



### But it wasn = t only an issue of not bringing in 20



### people at ISCD, the people who work directly 21



### over CFATS

-- because, as you know, the CFATS 22

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### 10

program is actually authorized in an 1



### appropriations bill. The organic authority 2



### for it is Section 550 of the DHS Appropriations 3



### Act of 2007. When that was originally ena cted 4



### it had a sunset date of three years. And 5



### usually what happened was that when Congress 6



### went through their annual appropriations 7



### process, that just got extended for the 8



### duration of the appropriations bill. 9



### Well, when Congress ha d an impasse 10



### last year, that really acutely affected the 11



### CFATS program because not only did the program 12



### not have any money, it didn't actually have an 13



### authorization, or the authorization was called 14



### into question. And finally that impasse got 15



### resolved, but that really served as a wake

- up 16



### call to Congress and through our own 17



### organization that, hey, it really is time, 18



### especially considering the substantial 19



### progress we were making on getting chemical 20



### facilities to have their SSPs authorized and 21



### approved, that it really is time to give 22

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permanent authorization to the CFATS program. 1



### And so one of the main parts of my 2



### portfolio is actually working with people in 3



### the Office of Legislative Affairs as well as 4



### congressional staff to try to get a bill 5



### enacted, into law to put this program onto 6



### firmer footing. 7



### I want to give you a progress update 8



### on that. HR 4007, the CFATS Authorization and 9



### Accountability Act of 2014, passed the House of 10



### Representatives on July 8th. The Senate has 11



### also made subs tantial progress. The Senate 12



### Committee on Homeland Security and Government 13



### Affairs passed its version of the bill. Theirs 14



### is called the Protecting and Securing Chemical 15



### Facilities from Terrorist Attacks Act of 2014, 16



### and they reported their bill out of co mmittee 17



### in late July. 18



### Right now in Washington we're in an 19



### extended recess. The members are out in full 20



### campaign mode, but we're very hopeful that 21



### when

-- after the election they will come back 22

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### 12

in and we're cautiously optimistic that the 1



### Senate will pass t heir bill and resolve their 2



### differences with the House. And by the end of 3



### the year, hopefully, the President will sign 4



### the bill into law, to put this program into 5



### firmer footing and to give permanent or 6



### extended authorization to the CFATS program. 7



### I know how important it is not just 8



### to DHS but also to industry, to give that firmer 9



### footing so that

-- you know, industry needs to 10



### have some security that this program is here to 11



### stay, and also to send a message out to 12



### outliers, s uch as West Texas, who as you know 13



### if they are to avoid the program, this program 14



### is here to stay, and they have chemicals of 15



### interest. They need to report them and go 16



### through the process of DHS identifying them and 17



### potentially regulating them. 18



### So that is sort of a good segue into 19



### EO 13650. I was actually out here for the 20



### listening session that we had in Sacramento for 21



### that EO. As you know, that was

-- we had a 22

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### 13

tragic industrial accident in West Texas 1



### involving a fertilizer plant. That really 2



### highlighte d the need to revisit the 3



### cross

- cutting issues involving chemical 4



### facility safety and security that a number of 5



### agencies, not just DHS, but across the Federal 6



### Government that the responsibility is under 7



### their jurisdiction. 8



### So the Pr esident issued the EO in 9



### August of 2013. It created an interagency 10



### working group led by DHS, OSHA, and EPA to 11



### consider issues surrounding chemical facility 12



### safety and security. And, it wasn't just 13



### creating an interagency working group to get a 14



### bunch of f eds to sit around the table and 15



### brainstorm. It was actually we wanted to go 16



### out to the public and get feedback on what the 17



### public's ideas were and what kind of issues we 18



### had to really focus on. So we had listening 19



### sessions such as the one down the street in 20



### Sacramento. And after that we considered all 21



### the ideas and tried to digest that. 22

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And that led to the June 6th 1



### issuance of the status report to the President, 2



### "Actions to Improve Chemical Facility Safety 3



### and Security

- A Shared Commitment." That 4



### report actually lays out 25 priority actions in 5



### 5 thematic areas, and I will go over them: 6



### strengthening and community planning and 7



### preparedness; enhancing federal operational 8



### coordination; improving data management; 9



### incorporating stakeholder feedback and 10



### developing best practices; and, finally, 11



### modernizing policies and regulations. 12



### And, on that last broad thematic 13



### area, one of the specific items called for DHS 14



### issuing the Advance Notice of Proposed 15



### Rulemaking to figure out how best to improve 16



### upon the existing CFATS program, and that's our 17



### reason why we're here today. 18



### So, as Kate mentioned, the ANPRM was 19



### issued in August, last month. We're right in 20



### the middle right now of the 60

- day comment 21



### period for soliciting your ideas on how t o 22

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improve the CFATS program. There are seven 1



### broad areas where we're looking for public 2



### comment, although obviously if there are other 3



### areas that don't fall within these, the public 4



### is welcome to comment as well. But, those 5



### seven areas are general regul atory approach; 6



### treatment of non

- traditional chemical 7



### facilities; clarification of terminology; the 8



### Risk

- Based Performance Standards; the Appendix 9



### A, Chemicals of Interest; consideration for 10



### small businesses; and alignment with other 11



### regulatory programs. 12



### So I think I've probably taken 13



### enough time and I want to get to the reason why 14



### we're really here today, which is to listen to 15



### you. So with that I think I will turn this 16



### back. 17



### MS. FINNERTY: Great. Thank you, 18



### Mr. Yee. 19



### I would now like to introduce Mr. 20



### Rodney Lockett, also

-- not also, but

-- with 21



### the DHS Infrastructure Security Compliance 22

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Division. 1



### Mr. Lockett, would you like to give 2



### some welcome remarks? 3



### MR. LOCKETT: Yes. Thank you. 4



### Again, my name is Rodney Lockett. 5



### I'm a Regio n 9 Regional Director. My remarks 6



### are going to be very short. 7



### I appreciate everybody showing up 8



### to today's event, and we extremely really look 9



### forward to listening to your comments and 10



### suggestions on how to move the program forward 11



### and further enhance the rule. Thank you. 12



### MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, Mr. 13



### Lockett. 14



### The remainder of the session today 15



### is set aside to hear from you, the stakeholders. 16



### And before we do hear from you, I would like to 17



### outline the format and ground rules for t oday's 18



### session. 19



### This is a listening session with the 20



### purpose to hear a diverse set of opinions from 21



### across a broad spectrum of stakeholders who 22

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have an interest in improving and streamlining 1



### the CFATS rule. DHS is interested in comments 2



### on the topics desc ribed in Part 4 of the ANPRM, 3



### as listed by Mr. Yee a few minutes ago. 4



### We do hope to hear a range of 5



### suggestions and all viewpoints are welcome this 6



### morning. As such, we are not seeking consensus 7



### today on any of the topics. 8



### All presenters are asked to keep 9



### their comments directly related to the topics 10



### contained in the rule. I will also note that 11



### specific suggestions and supporting data are 12



### the most helpful comments. 13



### The rest of today's listening 14



### session will include two parts. In a few 15



### minutes I will ask those who signed up in 16



### advance to present today to come forward and 17



### speak at our microphone. Individuals will 18



### have a maximum of five minutes to present to the 19



### panel, which does include any introduction to 20



### your remarks. Members of the panel may then 21



### ask some clarifying questions. 22

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I will then open the floor to anyone 1



### else in the room that would like to speak on the 2



### topics of the CFATS ANPRM. And those 3



### individuals will also have a maximum of five 4



### minutes to speak. 5



### To help us with tim ekeeping this 6



### morning, I will raise a yellow card when you 7



### have one minute remaining and a red card when 8



### your time is up. 9



### We do ask that you respect 10



### everyone's time and stay within the designated 11



### timeframes. 12



### If there are no question s on the 13



### process, we'll go ahead and get started. I 14



### would like to ask the following individuals who 15



### registered in advance to present to come 16



### forward. You may sit in the front row, and 17



### Carlos has the microphone. Mr. Ulrich and Mr. 18



### Jacob. 19



### MR. JACOB: My a pologies for the 20



### set

- up. (Referring to the microphone.) Good 21



### morning. My name is Tom Jacob. I am the 22

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### 19

Senior Consultant to the Chemical Industry 1



### Council of California. My colleague, the 2



### Executive Director of the CICC, John Ulrich, is 3



### not able to make i t this morning. 4



### The CICC is a 35

- year

- old statewide 5



### chemical industry trade association 6



### compromised of large and small chemical 7



### manufacturers, chemical distributors, and 8



### allied businesses throughout California. 9



### CICC represents numerous companies with over 10



### 100 California facilities, including 11



### manufacturing sites, research laboratories, 12



### and distribution centers. Our mission is to 13



### provide a means for individual companies to 14



### combine their expertise and resources to deal 15



### effectively with public policy issues 16



### affecting the chemical industry in this state. 17



### During the past seven years, CICC 18



### has placed a strong emphasis on promoting 19



### chemical facility security and acting in 20



### liaison between our member companies and 21



### federal and state agenci es charged with 22

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### 20

protection of critical infrastructure. CICC 1



### has been particularly active with the 2



### Department of Homeland Security, the 3



### California Governor's Office of Emergency 4



### Services Infrastructure Protection Division, 5



### the FBI's InfraGard Program, and various 6



### multi

- agency threat

- assessment fusion centers 7



### throughout California. CICC has promoted 8



### compliance with CFATS, provided opportunities 9



### for awareness training regarding domestic and 10



### foreign terrorism, and facilitated proactive 11



### working relationships w ith DHS personnel as 12



### well as with federal, state, and local law 13



### enforcement agencies. 14



### In addition to participating in 15



### CICC, our member companies also participate in 16



### national associations such as the American 17



### Chemistry Council, Socie ty of Chemical 18



### Manufacturers and Affiliates, and National 19



### Association of Chemical Distributors. All 20



### three national organizations have highly 21



### respected and independently

- verified 22

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### 21

environment, health, safety, and security 1



### codes of conduct as conditions of m embership. 2



### Respectively, these industry programs are 3



### known as Responsible Care, ChemStewards, and 4



### Responsible Distribution. All three programs 5



### are designed to protect the environment; 6



### promote health and safety of employees and 7



### community members; enhance product 8



### stewardship; and ensure the security of 9



### chemical products, raw materials, and 10



### facilities. 11



### Under each code of conduct member 12



### companies must develop, implement, and undergo 13



### periodic third

- party verification of policies 14



### and pro cedures that are designed to reduce 15



### incidents and continuously improve safety and 16



### security. Representatives of these national 17



### associations are active with the chemical 18



### coordinating

-- Chemical Sector Coordinating 19



### Council in Washington. 20



### The CICC strongly e ndorses the work 21



### of these groups and suggests that DHS continue 22

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### 22

interacting with these organizations to fully 1



### appreciate and utilize the extremely robust 2



### EHS&S rules of conduct that they administer. 3



### CICC commends DHS for progress made 4



### in the CFATS program over the past two years. 5



### It is our understanding that the Agency has 6



### indeed now completed over a thousand Site 7



### Security Plans. Our California members have 8



### reported favorably on the professionalism of 9



### the inspectors and the general conduct of 10



### preauthoriza tion inspections. 11



### Some key measures that have 12



### increased program efficiencies in our view 13



### include: better coordination of inspections 14



### for companies with multiple facilities; the 15



### ability to open up Site Security Plans during 16



### inspecti ons; and acceptance of Alternative 17



### Security Programs. 18



### With regard to Alternative Security 19



### Programs, CICC urges DHS to continue to 20



### encourage the use of these effective programs. 21



### By comparison, member companies have reported 22

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### 23

that the Chemical Security Asses sment Tool Site 1



### Security Plan template results in too many 2



### pages, not enough useful information, and 3



### effectively no coherent plan. Alternative 4



### Security Programs, on the other hand, are real 5



### security plans that facilities can actually 6



### implement and monitor

. 7



### CICC also notes that DTSC

-- or DHS' 8



### tiering methodology has from time to time been 9



### called into question. Several years ago a 10



### number of facilities received tiering notices 11



### from the Agency after those facilities had 12



### already invest ed significantly in security 13



### measures based on the original tiering. These 14



### companies learned after the fact that these 15



### investments would not have been necessary under 16



### the retiering designation. CICC hopes that 17



### DHS will make resolution of the tiering issu e 18



### a top priority. While these are sensitive 19



### issues involved, CICC joins our national 20



### industry associations in urging DHS to make 21



### this process of risk tiering assessments as 22

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transparent as practicable. 1



### Similarly, CICC urges DHS to adopt 2



### the methodology to make SSP submission and 3



### resubmission processes more efficient. Under 4



### current procedures, even companies that 5



### eliminate chemicals of interest at their sites 6



### or reduce the amount of chemicals of interest 7



### to a level below regulatory threshold 8



### quantities, hav e experienced difficulties in 9



### getting DHS acceptance of these modifications 10



### short of repeating the entire submittal 11



### process. 12



### MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir. 13



### MR. JACOB: Thank you very much. 14



### We appreciate the opportunity to share the se 15



### comments. We will follow this up with written 16



### submission. 17



### MS. FINNERTY: Wonderful. And so 18



### when we open the floor for open session, you 19



### will be able to have the opportunity to come 20



### back and finish your comments. 21



### MR. JACOB: Thank you. 22

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### 25

MS. FINNERTY: Y ou're welcome. 1



### I will now open the floor for 2



### additional comments during our open session 3



### period. If anyone else is interested this 4



### morning in submitting public comments here at 5



### our listening session, you may come and join us 6



### at the microphone. And, if th ere is more than 7



### one person that's interested this morning, you 8



### can line up at the chairs here at the front of 9



### the room. 10



### Any takers? 11



### I will keep the floor open. Please 12



### mill about and speak with your colleagues. 13



### MR. YEE: I wanted t o follow up 14



### on

-- 15



### MS. FINNERTY: Yes. 16



### MR. YEE:

-- what this gentleman 17



### was saying. 18



### So where are you on this 19



### essentially? So maybe you had not finished 20



### your presentation, but a lot of things you 21



### mentioned, such as CSAT, improving CSAT, and 22

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### 26

the SSP submittal process, and also the SSPs. 1



### I mean that's

-- those are things that the 2



### Departmen t has already engaged with industry 3



### and are working on. 4



### Are there specific things that you 5



### would suggest? You know the reason why we're 6



### having this meeting is to potentially think 7



### about changes to the regulations. Are there 8



### any suggestions that you have for how we can 9



### make all those processes run smoothly that 10



### necessitate changes to the underlying 11



### regulations? 12



### MR. JACOB: I don't think I'm in a 13



### position to answer that in specifics right now. 14



### We are in the process of working within our 15



### organization as well as in consultation with 16



### the other trade associations that I mentioned 17



### to consolidate our views on that. And I do hope 18



### that we will be elaborate to more specifics on 19



### that when we follow this up with our written 20



### comment. 21



### MR. YEE: Very well. 22

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### 27

MS. FINNERTY: Do you have 1



### additional comments that you would like to 2



### complete? You have another five minutes. 3



### MR. JACOB: That's fine. Yeah, 4



### just to conclude. With respect to the overall 5



### process, we understand and app reciate the need 6



### to continuously improve safety and security at 7



### chemical facilities. And, we certainly urge 8



### DHS to avoid the trap of imposing new 9



### transformational suggestions like inherently 10



### safer technology or the like. This is a 11



### concept that sounds goo d and is easy to say, but 12



### in our view it's monumentally difficult to 13



### define and harder still to implement. 14



### We would urge you to look to 15



### demonstrated successes of the voluntary 16



### industry management codes of conduct, such as 17



### those I mentioned earlier. These programs can 18



### and do deliver high quality, tangible benefits 19



### to communities, first responders, the 20



### environment, and the security of chemical 21



### facilities. 22

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We believe that much more can be 1



### achieved through dynamic public

- private 2



### cooperation and resource

- sharin g than through 3



### significantly increased command

- and

- control 4



### regulation. And, in this regard we fully 5



### support the current Risk

- Based Performance 6



### Standards approach that's embodied in CFATS and 7



### urge DHS particularly there to stay the course. 8



### MS. FINNERTY: T hank you, sir. 9



### MR. JACOB: Thank you. 10



### MS. FINNERTY: Any other follow

- up 11



### questions? 12



### MR. LOCKETT: I actually do have a 13



### question. 14



### So you spoke about the third

- party 15



### verification that these other programs use, 16



### from ACC to SOCMA. 17



### MR. J ACOB: Yeah. 18



### MR. LOCKETT: Can you provide some 19



### clarity on the specifics of that? 20



### MR. JACOB: Well, these programs 21



### all began quite some years ago initially in the 22

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form of what was then the Chemical 1



### Manufacturers Association Responsible Care 2



### Program that wa s actually developed in the wake 3



### of Bhopal. And that was a tragedy that was 4



### recognized as one that affected not just Union 5



### Carbide, the company directly involved, but it 6



### certainly had implications for all of us in 7



### terms of upgrading our cognizance of our 8



### surrounding communities and the impact that our 9



### facilities and our operations can potentially 10



### have. 11



### And, with all these programs it's 12



### been a continuous evolution. And, initially 13



### their Responsible Care Program, for example, 14



### did not include third

- party verification. It 15



### was adopted after a few years because it became 16



### apparent that simply a company attesting to its 17



### own reporting was not satisfactory when we were 18



### dealing with potential circumstances of the 19



### import of these programs. And , these are now 20



### generalized programs that insofar as the 21



### third

- party verification, and there's actually 22

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### 30

an involved kind of industry that is watching 1



### over these kinds of programs and has the ability 2



### to verify. 3



### MR. LOCKETT: Okay. Thank you. 4



### MS. FINNERTY: Any further 5



### questions? 6



### MR. LOCKETT: I don't have another 7



### question. I just want to clarify that if we're 8



### into open session

-- 9



### MS. FINNERTY: Yes. 10



### MR. LOCKETT:

-- that some of the 11



### things we're looking for are general regulatory 12



### a pproach, treatment of non

- traditional 13



### chemical facilities, clarification of 14



### terminology. They are the things that we'd 15



### like to hear about. Risk

- Based Performance 16



### Standards, Appendix A, consideration of small 17



### businesses, and alignment with other 18



### regulator y programs. So any comments of that 19



### would be appreciative. 20



### MS. FINNERTY: Wonderful. Thank 21



### you, Mr. Lockett. 22

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### 31

Do we have any other public comments 1



### for this morning? Yes, sir. Please join us at 2



### the microphone. You may sit or stand. If you 3



### would introduce yourself and then you have your 4



### five minutes for comments. 5



### MR. POISTER: Good morning. My 6



### name is Paul Poister and I am the Government 7



### Relations Manager for Agrium U.S. We have a 8



### fertilizer

- manufacturing operation in Wes t 9



### Sacramento. So, we want to welcome you here or 10



### back to Sacramento for the listening session. 11



### We have as a company, through CICC 12



### and through our other two trade associations, 13



### The Fertilizer Institute and the Ag Retailers, 14



### participated throughout this pro cess and in the 15



### series of listening sessions that we held as 16



### part of the Executive Order. 17



### Mr. Lockett, your comments to Tom 18



### gave rise to a brief item I wanted to bring up 19



### to the panel and it's included in extensive 20



### written comments that TFI is submitting a s part 21



### of this process. And that is new initiative 22

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### 32

that we in the ag chemical sector are just 1



### getting underway. We're working closely with 2



### the Executive Order Working Group on this, and 3



### it's a program called Responsible Ag. And, I 4



### have some background i nformation I'll just 5



### leave with you. 6



### MS. FINNERTY: Thank you. 7



### MR. POISTER: It is a third

- party 8



### verification audit process. And, we are just 9



### now starting to train auditors to go out in the 10



### field and voluntarily audit retailers. T here 11



### is a training center that is just opening up at 12



### the Asmark Institute in Owensboro, Kentucky. 13



### I had the opportunity last week to go through 14



### and see that. And, for our industry it is truly 15



### state

- of

- the

- art as far as training centers go. 16



### We'll start tr aining these auditors 17



### by the end of October and then start going out 18



### and doing field audits of ag retailers early 19



### next year. It's an impressive list of 20



### compliance checkmarks that they'll go through. 21



### There are more than 400 separate items on the 22

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### 33

audit lis t, and that's just for ag retailers who 1



### will voluntarily opt into the program. 2



### So we will continue to keep DHS and 3



### the Working Group apprised of our success. 4



### When we first spoke about Responsible Ag last 5



### March on the Hill, Senator Boxer was very 6



### impressed and gave out a clarion call to our 7



### industry to get engaged with this pending any 8



### additional regulatory or legislative steps 9



### that may come about. But, this is a voluntary 10



### initiative that we're very proud to roll out. 11



### And, we'll be put auditors out in the field and 12



### probably about this time next year have some 13



### data to report back to the Department. 14



### Any questions or comments? 15



### MS. FINNERTY: Questions? 16



### MR. LOCKETT: I think I gave a 17



### presentation last month to your group

-- 18



### MR. POISTER : Um

- hum. 19



### MR. LOCKETT:

-- or to the 20



### association. So it's good to see that you're 21



### coming up to speed. So my question is 22

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### 34

what

-- is the scope similar to Responsible Care 1



### or is it a larger scope and then what are the 2



### limitations of the facilities that you 're 3



### looking at or are there any limitations? 4



### MR. POISTER: At this point, the 5



### scope is primarily limited to ag chemical 6



### retail facilities. So retail farm centers, 7



### and we have them all across the State of 8



### California. Our company al ong has several 9



### dozens. Those companies will voluntarily 10



### contact Responsible Ag and schedule this 11



### third

- party audit to come out to their site. 12



### They will go through the compliance checklist. 13



### The auditor will essentially give them a report 14



### back and say yo u are in full compliance of all 15



### of these myriad federal regulations that apply 16



### to you, or he will come back with some 17



### recommendations of how that facility can 18



### voluntarily get approved. 19



### Once they meet the standards that 20



### Responsible Ag has set up, they will get kind 21



### of a gold standard checkmark from Responsible 22

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### 35

Ag showing full compliance. And I think that 1



### will be very helpful to the regulatory 2



### community so that they have a sense even before 3



### they go to a location that that site's been 4



### audited and verified by third

- party auditors. 5



### Initially, it will be focused on 6



### those facilities that have dry 7



### agriculture

- grade ammonia nitrate and 8



### anhydrous ammonia. 9



### MR. LOCKETT: Okay. 10



### MR. POISTER: I certainly can see 11



### this expanding out. The checklist covers a 12



### whole lot more than that. 13



### MR. LOCKETT: Okay. Thank you. 14



### MR. POISTER: Um

- hum. 15



### MR. YEE: Mr. Poister, how do you 16



### see the interplay, or do you have any 17



### recommendations on the interplay between 18



### third

- party type audits such as Responsible Ag 19



### and the formal type of inspections that Rodney 20



### or his staff would perform under CFATS 21



### regulatory authority? 22

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### 36

MR. POISTER: Well, first I'd like 1



### to say speaking as a company here in California, 2



### we enjoy a very strong relationship with local, 3



### state, and federal law enforcement, first 4



### responders, and regulators at our plant here. 5



### We are under Coast Guard jurisdiction and have 6



### a very good working relationship with people 7



### who come out routinely to our location. 8



### To your specific question as how 9



### t hat might work with official regulatory 10



### compliance, I can only see that it would help. 11



### I would suspect that this hopefully will reach 12



### locations that to this point have not had the 13



### opportunity to have official inspections from 14



### agencies. There may be a lit tle peer pressure 15



### as in, well, all my competitors are opting into 16



### this program to come out, probably I ought to 17



### do that too. And, it probably just speeds up 18



### the compliance process, because even before DHS 19



### or OSHA, or one of the other regulatory agencies 20



### w ould go to a site, hopefully that retailer has 21



### gone through, he's found where corrective 22

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### 37

action may be necessary, and he's taken those 1



### steps. 2



### MS. FINNERTY: Thank you. 3



### Any other follow

- up questions, 4



### gentlemen? 5



### Do you want to? Great. 6



### MR. JACOB: Yeah. I just wanted to 7



### pick up on that last one. 8



### MS. FINNERTY: Is this Y 9



### MR. JACOB: Is that okay? 10



### MS. FINNERTY: We do not

-- this is 11



### not a discussion session. 12



### MR. JACOB: Okay. 13



### MS. FINNERTY: If you have 14



### additional public comments that wi ll be helpful 15



### for the public comment period for the CFATS 16



### ANPRM, we are more than happy to entertain those 17



### now. Otherwise, I will keep the floor open to 18



### anybody else that would like to present their 19



### five minutes of public comments. And, if we 20



### don't have any, I will keep the floor open and 21



### you all can speak amongst yourselves and learn 22

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### 38

from each other today. And, if somebody is 1



### interested in speaking,

-- yes, please. Thank 2



### you. 3



### If you would please introduce 4



### yourself, and you have five minutes. 5



### MR. DAVIS: Glynn Davis. I'm the 6



### Corporate Security Manager for Aerojet 7



### Rocketdyne in Rancho Cordova over there. We 8



### have been a part of the program since its 9



### inception and have welcomed this program from 10



### day one and been very agg ressive with it. 11



### Just a couple of comments. There's 12



### a lot of aspects of the program that we really, 13



### really like. First and foremost, continue 14



### with the program. I think it's a definite 15



### benefit to our companies and our Nation. 16



### So, another one I would like to make 17



### is we really look forward you pushing down the 18



### personal surety efforts. We've been working 19



### on this for a long, long time. We need to get 20



### it going, because not only does personal surety 21



### help us with CFATS but it also helps us as a 22

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### 39

company. It will also help us in things like 1



### workplace violence and another initiative of 2



### the President, the Insider Threat Initiative. 3



### So we need to get the personal surety stuff 4



### going as soon as possible, so we want to push 5



### that. 6



### Another comme nt is on COI. I know 7



### you're working on it, but we need to redo the 8



### COI list. There are a number of things that 9



### just don't make sense. And, if you want a 10



### specific example, for instance, dinitrogen 11



### tetroxide has a threshold of 15 pounds. 12



### Hydrazine has a threshold of 10,000 pounds. If 13



### you talk to our chemists, they will tell you 14



### hydrazine is much more dangerous than 15



### dinitrogen tetroxide. So there's things like 16



### that where we really need to deep

- dive into it, 17



### take some chemical resolves, add some 18



### chemicals , look at some thresholds of things. 19



### So that's a comment on that. 20



### As far as a comment on the process. 21



### We need to seriously look at the process from 22

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### 40

Top

- Screen to SSP, because it's significantly 1



### redundant right now, and I have a good example 2



### of that. 3



### We had our inspection of chem and 4



### aridisol (phonetic), of where an inspector 5



### looked at something, he says, hey, we need to 6



### drop this chemical. So, they did their 7



### inspection. We resubmitted actually an ASP, 8



### submitted that up. The ASP got approved. And 9



### three months later, DHS comes back and says, 10



### hey, you need to do an SVA. 11



### I says, why do we need to do an SVA 12



### again. I just had my Site Security Plan 13



### approved, or whoever changed it. 14



### So I think we need to rea lly look at 15



### the redundancy there. I would suggest that, 16



### and I see where they're coming from, but I would 17



### suggest if your security issue doesn't change, 18



### more than likely your tiering is not going to 19



### change. So if you have a change in your 20



### chemical and it' s within that security measure, 21



### theft or diversion, toxic, you shouldn't have 22

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### 41

to go through the process all over again. But 1



### if you do, I do understand if you switch from 2



### a theft or diversion and you added a toxic 3



### release, you probably need to go through t he 4



### process again. So that would be my suggestion, 5



### to look at something we could do to eliminate 6



### some of that redundancy. 7



### So, Colin, do you have anything you 8



### want to add from our company? 9



### COLIN: No. 10



### I really appreciate your time, in 11



### closing. We love the program, we want to see 12



### it continue, and hopefully Congress and the 13



### Senate are going to approve this new bill. So 14



### thank you. 15



### MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, sir. 16



### MR. LOCKETT: Thank you. 17



### MS. FINNERTY: Do we have follow

- up 18



### questions? 19



### MR. LOCKETT: No. I'm good

. 20



### Thank you. 21



### MR. YEE: No, no questions. I just 22

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### 42

wanted to address the personal surety issue 1



### that you mentioned. That is

-- we're in 2



### the

-- yeah. We're still trying to get that 3



### information collection request approved by 4



### OMB. Now that's for a very specific part of 5



### personal surety. That's just for the 6



### terrorist

- screening part. The other parts, 7



### the criminal

- history records check, identity 8



### validation, those are in fact what we call 9



### RBPS

- 12 1 to 3. If you have an approved 10



### security program, that facility is required to 11



### implement those criminal history and those 12



### kinds of checks even though TSDB has been carved 13



### out. So I just want to make that 14



### clarification. 15



### MS. FINNERTY: Great. Thank you. 16



### Would anyone else like to submit 17



### public com ments today? 18



### Okay. I will keep the floor open. 19



### And, again, please feel free to mill about and 20



### speak amongst yourselves about these topics or 21



### anything else that's important for today. I 22

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### 43

will return to the podium when we do have 1



### another guest that would l ike to provide public 2



### comments. Thank you. 3



### (No public comments made from 9:46 4



### a.m. to 12:45 p.m.) 5



### MS. FINNERTY: Good afternoon. 6



### I'd now like to introduce Mr. Rodney Lockett 7



### with the DHS Infrastructure Security 8



### Compliance Division for our closing comments. 9



### MR. LOCKETT: I would like to thank 10



### everybody for their participation and your 11



### comments for today's session. Thank you. 12



### MS. FINNERTY: Thank you, Mr. 13



### Lockett. 14



### Again thank you, everyone, for 15



### participating in today's listening ses sion on 16



### the Chemical Facility Anti

- Terrorism Standards 17



### Advance Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. Please 18



### visit the docket in the Federal Register to view 19



### listening session notes and to submit 20



### additional written comments. Please visit the 21



### Chemical Security we bsite to view the remaining 22

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### 44

schedule of listening sessions. We are now 1



### adjourned. 2



### (The session was adjourned at 12:46 3



### o'clock p.m.) 4

5

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