1

1 Environmental Protection Agency

2

3

4

5

6 Public Hearing on

7 Proposed Clean Power Plan for

8 Existing Power Plants

9

10

11

12 9:03 a.m. to 8 p.m.

13 Tuesday, July 29, 2014

14

15 Room A

16 OMNI Hotel

17 100 CNN Center

18 Atlanta, Georgia 30303

19

20

21

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1 EPA PANEL 1:

2 HEATHER McTEER TONEY, Panel 1 Chair; and

3 Regional Administrator, Region 4, EPA

4 NICK HUTSON, Technical Lead,

5 Office of Air and Radiation, Headquarters, EPA

6 JEANEANNE GETTLE, Deputy Director,

7 Air, Pesticides and Toxics Management Division,

8 Region 4, EPA

9

10 EPA PANEL 2:

11 FRED THOMPSON, Panel 2 Chair; and

12 Associate Division Director,

13 Sectors Policies and Programs Division,

14 Air Quality Planning and Standards, EPA

15 NICK HUTSON, Technical Lead,

16 Office of Air and Radiation, Headquarters, EPA

17 JULIA MILLER, Energy Efficiency Expert,

18 Office of Air and Radiation, Headquarters, EPA

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20

21

22

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1 EPA PANEL 3:

2 HEATHER McTEER TONEY, Panel 1 Chair; and

3 Regional Administrator, Region 4, EPA

4 JULIA MILLER, Energy Efficiency Expert,

5 Office of Air and Radiation, Headquarters, EPA

6 CAROL KEMKER, Deputy Director,

7 Air, Pesticides and Toxics Management Division,

8 Region 4, EPA

9

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1 C O N T E N T S

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION

4 DON PARSONS,

5 Georgia State Representative, Cobb County 24

6 CHUCK MARTIN,

7 Georgia State Representative, 49th District 29

8 BLAINE GALLIHER, Senior Advisor, 

9 Office of Governor of Alabama 35

10 JEREMY ODEN,

11 Alabama Public Service Commissioner 41

12 STEPHEN A. SMITH, Executive Director,

13 Southern Alliance for Clean Energy 47

14 FLACO ALEMAN, Executive Director,

15 Kentucky Jobs with Justice 53

16 LUTHER STRANGE, Alabama Attorney General 58

17 LYLE LANSDELL,

18 Sustainable Farmer in Sandersville, Georgia 63

19 HOWARD J. FELDMAN,

20 American Petroleum Institute 66

21 LEE BOONE, Chairman, 

22 Heard County Board of Commissioners 71

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 TIM ECHOLS, Commissioner,

5 Georgia Public Service Commission 76

6 JOHN NOEL, President,

7 SACE Board of Directors 81

8 LUIS MARTINEZ, Senior Attorney,

9 National Resources Defense Council 86

10 ROBERT STAMPER, Concerned Citizen 91

11 CLAUDIA HANES, Concerned Citizen from Kentucky 94

12 ASHTEN BAILEY, Staff Attorney, Greenlaw 97

13 DAREL PREBLE, Space Solar Power Institute 103

14 ANNE MELLINGER-BIRDSONG, M.D., Pediatrician 106

15 ROBY GREENWALD,

16 Rollins School of Public Health,

17 Emory University 113

18 BENTON WISLINSKI, Director, 

19 Conservation Advocacy for the South Carolina

20 Wildlife Federation 119

21 BRANDON PRESLEY, Commissioner,

22 Mississippi Public Service Commission 124

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 JIM JESS, Vice President, Georgia Tea Party 130

5 ROBERT KAPPELMANN,

6 Florida Municipal Electric Association 136

7 COURTNEY HANSON, Director of Organizing,

8 Georgia Women's Action for New Directions 140

9 BARBARA ANTONOPLOS, Concerned Citizen 145

10 ADRIANNA QUINTERO, Senior Attorney,

11 Natural Resources Defense Council; and

12 Founder/Director of Voces Verdes 150

13 REV. ALEXIS CHASE,

14 Vicar of Holy Comforter Episcopal Church 156

15 JENNIFER RENNICKS, Concerned Citizen 160

16 MARILYN BROWN, Professor of Public Policy,

17 Georgia Institute of Technology; and

18 Director, Climate and Energy Policy Lab 165

19 DENNIS CREECH, Executive Director,

20 Southface Energy Institute 169

21 DAVID HAYES, Concerned Citizen from Tennessee 174

22 ARTHUR GIBERT, Concerned Citizen from Georgia 176

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 MORNING SESSION (continued)

4 SARAH LYNN CUNNINGHAM, Environmental Engineer 180

5 GLENN CARROLL, Nuclear Watch South 185

6

7 AFTERNOON SESSION

8 TWINKLE ANDRESS CAVANAUGH, President

9 Alabama Public Service Commission 196

10 LANE BOLDMAN,

11 Kentucky Environmental Foundation 200

12 VICKIE TERRY,

13 Concerned Citizen from Tennessee 206

14 DR. MAEVE HOWETT, Clinical Associate Professor,

15 Emory University 212

16 REV. KATE McGREGOR MOSLEY,

17 Interim Executive Director,

18 Georgia Interfaith Power & Light 214

19 MICHAEL MIGLIACCIO,

20 Regional Business Development Manager,

21 Johnson Controls 221

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

4 GRETCHEN DAHLKEMPER, National Field Manager,

5 Moms Clean Air Force 226

6 GARRY HARRIS, President of HTS Enterprises;

7 Managing Director of Center for Sustainable

8 Communities; and Managing Director of

9 Emerald Cities Atlanta 232

10 DR. DANIEL JORANKO, President,

11 Tennessee Interfaith Power & Light 238

12 DR. PATRICIA ANNE WILLIAMS,

13 Concerned Citizen from Atlanta 242

14 ANNA JANE JOYNER, Coordinator, Creation Care

15 Alliance of Western North Carolina 247

16 BARBARA S. PAUL,

17 Concerned Citizen from Atlanta 253

18 DAVID A. THEISS, Mayor of Ellaville, Georgia 256

19 RUSSELL OLIVER,

20 Kentuckian for the Commonwealth 260

21 MICKEY McCOY,

22 Concerned Citizen from Inez, Kentucky 267

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

4 STEPHEN WILKINS,

5 Kentuckians for the Commonwealth 272

6 DOUG MIELL, Georgia Chamber of Commerce 278

7 BARBARA KELLY, Concerned Citizen from Georgia 284

8 PAM JONES, Citizens Climate Lobby 289

9 NICK MULLINS, Concerned Citizen from Kentucky 295

10 ALEXANDRIA MULLINS,

11 Daughter of Nick and Rustina Mullins 299

12 DR. JAMES RUST, Heartland Institute 303

13 DOUG FULLE, Vice President,

14 Environmental Affairs,

15 Oglethorpe Power Corporation 307

16 RUTH BAMBERGER,

17 Concerned Citizen from Kentucky 312

18 BRYAN TOLAR, President,

19 Georgia Agribusiness Council 316

20 ANUP SHAH,

21 Environment Affairs Metro Atlanta Chamber, 320

22 RICK FOWLER, Concerned Citizen from Kentucky 327

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

4 BEN TERPSTRA,

5 Concerned Citizen from Tennessee 331

6 REL CORBIN,

7 Concerned Citizen from Arkansas 336

8 TIM DARST, Executive Director,

9 Kentucky Interfaith Power & Light 339

10 SUSAN CORBETT, Chair, South Carolina

11 Chapter of the Sierra Club; and Chair,

12 National Sierra Club Nuclear-Free Campaign 345

13 BOB McQUEEN, Green for All 353

14 BOB GALE, Ecologist and Public Lands Director,

15 Western North Carolina Alliance 358

16 CAROL JUDY, Concerned Citizen from Tennessee 363

17 JUNE DEAN, Senior Vice President,

18 Public Policy and Health Promotion.

19 American Lung Association in Georgia,

20 North Carolina, and South Carolina 367

21 RUSTINA MULLINS,

22 Concerned Citizen from Kentucky 370

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 AFTERNOON SESSION (continued)

4 DANIEL MULLINS,

5 Son of Nick and Rustina Mullins 373

6 ELIZABETH BARGER,

7 Concerned Citizen from Tennessee 378

8 JEANNE CERULEAN, 

9 Concerned Citizen from Tennessee 381

10 TAYLOR ALLRED,

11 Southern Alliance for Clean Energy 388

12 PATTI BLEVINS,

13 Health Safety Environment Manager,

14 Johns Manville Corp, Winder, Georgia 393

15

16 EVENING SESSION

17 AMY ADAMS,

18 Concerned Citizen from North Carolina 405

19 CANDEE HENDERSON,

20 Concerned Citizen from Georgia 411

21 BERT SCHUSTER,

22 Concerned Citizen from Georgia 416

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued)

2 PAGE

3 CHRIS McCORKLE, Vice President of Operations,

4 McCorkle Nurseries in Georgia 421

5 BONITA DODD, Georgia Public Policy Foundation 424

6 ELLEN DUGAN,

7 Concerned Citizen from North Carolina 429

8 DR. GERALD STATON, Board of Directors,

9 American Lung Association of the Southeast 432

10 ANTHONY HUDSON, Concerned Citizen 437

11 TAMMYE VAUGHN, Manager of Marketing,

12 Altamaha Electric Membership Cooperative 440

13 BRAD ROUSE, Concerned Citizen 443

14 TERRY FLOYD, Concerned Citizen from Georgia 447

15 BARBARA STAHMKE, Registered Dietician 452

16 JANE LAPING,

17 Concerned Citizen from North Carolina 456

18 DAVID WHITE, Director,

19 Gulf of Mexico Restoration Campaign,

20 National Wildlife Federation 460

21 JAMA EILERMANN,

22 Concerned Citizen from North Carolina 466

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MORNING SESSION

3 MS. TONEY: Good morning, everyone. 

4 ATTENDEES: Good morning.

5 MS. TONEY: Good morning. I love the 

6 energy already. It is 9:03, so we are going to 

7 go ahead and begin and get started today. Good 

8 morning again. My name is Heather McTeer Toney. 

9 I am the Regional Administrator for the

10 Environmental Protection Agency here in Region 4, 

11 the Southeast Region.

12 First, let me say I am so glad to see 

13 each and every one of you and thank you so much 

14 for joining us today. I am one of the Chairs for 

15 today's Public Hearing, and we are going to have 

16 a very, very good day today.

17 Joining me on this panel this morning is 

18 Mr. Nick Hutson, who is the Technical Lead for 

19 the Office of Air and Radiation out of our 

20 Headquarters in Washington, D.C. -- thanks so 

21 much for joining us this morning -- and also 

22 Jeaneanne Gettle, who is the Air, Pesticides, and 

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1 Toxic Deputy Director in Region 4.

2 Thank you all again for joining us. We 

3 are here today to listen to your comments on two 

4 proposed rules to reduce carbon pollution from 

5 power plants. EPA announced both of these 

6 proposed rules on June the 2nd of 2014.

7 Just a little background information for 

8 you. Power plants are the largest source of 

9 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

10 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

11 emissions. The first rule is EPA's Proposed 

12 Clean Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

13 proposal consists of two main parts: 

14 state-specific goals to lower carbon pollution 

15 from the power plants and guidelines to help 

16 states develop their plans for meeting the goals. 

17 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

18 determining how to meet their goals, and states 

19 will choose what goes into each of their plans 

20 that show how they will achieve the needed 

21 reductions and meet their goals by 2030.

22 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to

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1 address Carbon Dioxide Emissions from Modified 

2 and Reconstructed Power Plants. This rule would 

3 set emission limits for two groups of power 

4 plants, those that make physical or operational 

5 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

6 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

7 that replace components to such an extent that 

8 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

9 capital cost of an entirely new or comparable 

10 facility.

11 Now, if you would like more details on 

12 either of these proposed rules, there are fact 

13 sheets that are near the registration desk. Let 

14 me also take this time to remind you, if you have 

15 not signed into the EPA registration, we would 

16 please ask that you make sure that you sign into 

17 the registration desk for EPA as you receive or 

18 pick up any of the materials that we have outside 

19 that are for you.

20 So today's hearing is one of four Public 

21 Hearings across the country this week on the two 

22 proposed rules. We have had tremendous interest 

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1 in these hearings, and we are especially glad 

2 that we are able to host one of these hearings 

3 here in the Southeast Region.

4 I really want to thank you all for taking 

5 out your time to travel here today. I think that 

6 is shows not only how critically important this 

7 is to all of us, but it shows how important it is 

8 for us to hear and listen to the comments that 

9 you have. And that's exactly what we intend to 

10 do today.

11 So, again, make sure that you have signed 

12 in. If you have signed in to speak online or by 

13 phone but haven't told us that you're here, 

14 please make sure that you step out to the 

15 registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 

16 you have arrived.

17 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

18 given a room letter where you checked in, Room A 

19 or Room B. We are in Room A, and so let's make 

20 sure right now. If you're a speaker, check where 

21 you are supposed to be and if you're in the right 

22 room. If you're not in the right room, this 

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1 might be a good time to switch and go over to 

2 Room B, which is right through those doors. If 

3 you are in the right room or if you're just here 

4 to listen, by all means, make yourselves 

5 comfortable.

6 All right. So here is how today's 

7 hearing is going to work. I am going to call the 

8 speakers up in pairs. When your name is called, 

9 please come to the table here at the front of the 

10 room. If you need assistance coming up the 

11 steps, we do have someone, one of the staff 

12 members who will raise their hand. We will have 

13 someone to assist you if you need some assistance 

14 making it up to these steps.

15 When I call on you to speak, please state 

16 your name and spell it for the court reporter. 

17 All of the comments today are being recorded. 

18 Your comments are going to be transcribed and 

19 included in the record of comments on the 

20 proposed rule.

21 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

22 comments, and we have a light here to help you 

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1 know how much time you have left to speak. When 

2 the light turns from green to yellow, that means 

3 you have 1 minute remaining. When it turns to 

4 red, that is a signal that you need to wrap up 

5 your testimony. When the light will flash to red 

6 and it starts beeping, that means you have spoken 

7 for 5 minutes and it is time to stop. If I start 

8 waving my hands like this, that means it is the 

9 end. I know we won't have to do that because 

10 everyone here is going to work with us 

11 accordingly.

12 But the point is that we want to make 

13 sure that we get a chance to hear everyone's 

14 testimony, that we give you the opportunity to 

15 speak, and that we don't run overtime, so that we 

16 can hear as many people as possible.

17 We, again, are here to listen to you 

18 today. When you are finished speaking, please 

19 remain at the table until the person next to you 

20 has completed his or her testimony.

21 We are here to listen to you today, but 

22 we may ask you a clarifying question. The 

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1 clarifying question, we may or may not ask. 

2 Again, it will not take away from your time. It 

3 is simply to understand maybe a definition or 

4 just to be a little clearer on the statement that 

5 you have made. After that, I will call the next 

6 pair and so on and so on, until we finish this 

7 morning session.

8 If you have brought a written copy of 

9 your testimony with you today, please give that 

10 to the staff at the registration desk before you 

11 leave today, so that we can make sure that we 

12 also have that as a part of our record.

13 Because of the large number of people who 

14 have signed up to speak today and to be 

15 absolutely fair to everyone here in the room, we 

16 are going to have to strictly enforce the 

17 5-minute rule. So please be kind and be 

18 cognizant of the other people who would like to 

19 speak. We want to make sure that we listen to 

20 everyone and that we abide by that 5-minute rule.

21 We also want to make sure that we are 

22 very respectful of everyone speaking and 

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1 everyone's opportunity of what they have to say. 

2 You should know that I have bragged quite a bit 

3 on the fact that we are in the Southeast Region, 

4 and we know Southern hospitality better than 

5 anyone else. So I know that we will have an 

6 opportunity to really listen to everyone's 

7 comment and then have the opportunity to share in 

8 those later on, maybe after these sessions are 

9 over with.

10 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

11 much consideration to comments we receive in 

12 writing as we do to comments that we receive at a 

13 Public Hearing such as this. If you have more 

14 that you would like to say and you don't have an 

15 opportunity to get it all out in the comments, 

16 please, please make sure that you write those 

17 comments down, that you submit those comments to 

18 us, because they will be reviewed. There is 

19 plenty of time to get written comments in, and 

20 there are comment cards available at the 

21 registration desk.

22 The comments must be received by October 

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1 the 16th, 2014. Again, that is October the 16th. 

2 That is how long we have to receive those written 

3 comments.

4 We will put any written comments that we 

5 receive today into the official docket for the 

6 proposed rule. Don't feel slighted or don't feel 

7 bad if you don't get a chance to get up to speak 

8 or you didn't sign up to speak and you want to 

9 write something and you have a thought and you 

10 want to write it down. Please make sure that you 

11 do that, and that you submit it to us at the 

12 desk, so that we can make those as a part of our 

13 record.

14 We are scheduled to go to 8 p.m. tonight, 

15 and we are going to take a lunch and a dinner 

16 break, so everyone can get something to eat. 

17 Right now, the lunch break is scheduled for noon, 

18 and the dinner break is scheduled for five 

19 o'clock.

20 In addition, we may take additional short 

21 breaks throughout the day, as needed, and we will 

22 keep you posted as the day goes on.

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1 Of course, if you have any questions, we 

2 have many staff, EPA staff, that are here, that 

3 are ready to assist and help you, and we will try 

4 to make sure that we can answer or address any of 

5 your concerns and needs as quickly as possible.

6 Finally, I want to ask each of you -- and 

7 I have said this, but just to reiterate it, just 

8 a little bit more -- please be respectful of 

9 everyone who speaks today. We have a wide 

10 variety of different views and thoughts, and they 

11 are all equally important to this process. That 

12 is really the beauty of this process is that here 

13 today, we have an opportunity to listen to 

14 everyone, everyone's views, and get it as a part 

15 of our record.

16 I can tell you that our Administration, 

17 this is very, very important to her that we hear 

18 from every aspect of the community, and we want 

19 to hear from all of you. We want to be fair to 

20 everyone, so please listen, listen quietly, so 

21 that we can transcribe properly and make sure 

22 that we get your comments on the record. Even 

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1 applause can slow things down sometimes, and I 

2 know there are some comments that we may be 

3 really excited about, but if we can, let's try to 

4 make sure that we listen, that we get the 

5 information in, that it is transcribed correctly, 

6 and that we are fair to everyone who is signed up 

7 to speak.

8 Again, thank you so much for taking out 

9 your time, your travel to be here with us today, 

10 and with that, let's go ahead and get started.

11 Our first two speakers are Chuck Martin 

12 and Don Parsons. If Chuck Martina and Don 

13 Parsons would please make your way to the tables.

14 [Pause.]

15 MS. TONEY: Technical difficulties, which 

16 is why we have backup.

17 MS. GETTLE: Jane, can you go get the 

18 people and tell them to come and reset this? 

19 MS. TONEY: In the meantime, we are going 

20 to do old-fashioned technology here.

21 All right. We are going to reverse the 

22 order just a minute. I think we are going to go 

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1 Don Parsons first.

2 If you would, please state your name, 

3 spell it correctly for the court reporter, and 

4 any titles that need to be added, as well. You 

5 may proceed.

6 MR. PARSONS: Okay, thank you. My name 

7 is Don Parsons. That's D-o-n, P-a-r-s-o-n-s. I 

8 am a Georgia State Representative from Cobb 

9 County, Georgia. I am the Chair of the Energy 

10 Utilities and Telecommunications Committee in the 

11 Georgia House of Representatives. I want to 

12 thank you for the opportunity to present my 

13 thoughts on the proposed rule.

14 I appreciate much of the work done by the 

15 EPA. There is no doubt in my mind that the air 

16 we breathe today is cleaner than if the EPA had 

17 not been established.

18 From the time I was in the fourth grade 

19 until I graduated from college, my family and 

20 neighbors breathed polluted air. Our cars and 

21 streets were covered in a black grit every 

22 morning, and we dealt with a strong and pungent 

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1 odor of chlorine and other chemicals on a daily 

2 basis. This was in the Kanawha Valley of West 

3 Virginia, once only second to the Ruhr Valley in 

4 Germany in the production of chemicals and 

5 chemical products. I know that sometimes 

6 industry does not do the right things with people 

7 affected by its actions, and sometimes the people 

8 need some help.

9 However, I also know that those chemical 

10 plants provided the jobs for most of the people 

11 in that valley. The fathers of most of my 

12 classmates work in some capacity for Union 

13 Carbide, Westvaco, Monsanto, DuPont, or some 

14 other chemical plant. Those plants were the 

15 economic engine of the valley. The coal that was 

16 used in those plants provided jobs for miners 

17 from throughout the region and provided the 

18 livelihood for their families, and the management 

19 of those companies demanded excellence in the 

20 public school systems. Although I did not 

21 realize it at the time, this nation as well as 

22 that region were beneficiaries of that.

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1 These are some of the components of the 

2 proposed rule change, and unfortunately, the EPA 

3 and the current administration in Washington, 

4 D.C., are apparently not taking into 

5 consideration. I don't know whether or not the 

6 Ruhr Valley in Germany is still an unwanted 

7 chemical-producing area of the world, but I am 

8 pretty sure that the Kanawha Valley is not number 

9 two.

10 If this proposed rule is adopted, more 

11 and more of those miners of West Virginia, 

12 Southwest Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky, 

13 Pennsylvania, and from across the country will 

14 lose their jobs, with no way to provide a 

15 livelihood for their families. These are good, 

16 hardworking people who have done nothing to 

17 deserve that their livelihood be taken away from 

18 them.

19 What they have done is to provide a 

20 resource to build the factories, the skyscrapers, 

21 the tanks, the warships, the vehicles, and 

22 airplanes that have made this country what it is 

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1 and to defend it against those who hate it for 

2 what it is.

3 I seriously doubt that anybody was 

4 complaining about carbon emissions from the 

5 burning of coal for the production of warships 

6 and aircraft on D-Day.

7 In its Executive Summary, the EPA states, 

8 "We project job gains and losses relative 

9 to . . . coal and natural gas production, and 

10 demand side energy efficiency sectors." This is 

11 the EPA saying it. "In 2020, we project job 

12 growth of 25,900 to 28,000 jobs . . . in the 

13 power production and fuel extraction sectors, and 

14 we project an increase of 78,800 jobs in the 

15 demand-side energy efficiency sector."

16 I don't see how reduction and use of coal 

17 can possibly result in a job growth of 28,000 

18 jobs in the fuel extraction sector.

19 The EPA makes very prominent references 

20 to the President's Climate Action Plan, which 

21 according to the EPA recognizes that climate 

22 change has far-reaching, harmful consequences and 

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1 economic cost. It goes on to say the Climate 

2 Action Plan details a broad array of actions to 

3 reduce greenhouse gas emissions that contribute 

4 to climate change.

5 To that, I offer the following. When the 

6 health and welfare of people are adversely 

7 affected by the actions of man, some positive 

8 action is sometimes justified when very limited 

9 negative economic activity might occur. However, 

10 for action as drastic as the proposed rule to be 

11 put in place, an action that will place severe 

12 economic hardships on citizens of this nation, 

13 based upon unproven theories of climate change, 

14 there is a completely different thing and should 

15 not be considered, should not be accepted, should 

16 not be approved.

17 In closing, the EPA in its summary 

18 states, The CAA, as interpreted by the courts, 

19 identifies several factors for the EPA to 

20 consider in a Best System of Emission Reduction 

21 determination. These include technical 

22 feasibility, costs, size of emission reductions 

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1 and technology, whether the system promotes the 

2 implementation and further development of 

3 technology.

4 I would ask the EPA to consider what 

5 Senator Manchin has proposed, and that is give 

6 industry time to develop the technology needed to 

7 allow the use of coal to meet the desired 

8 standards.

9 I do not own one clump of coal. I have 

10 no financial interest whatsoever in the coal 

11 industry, but I know what a great source of 

12 energy it is. I know that we have vast reserves 

13 of it, and I know that we should not penalize the 

14 coal industry and the families that depend on the 

15 mining of it just to enact standards that are not 

16 perfected.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Martin?

20 And I believe our light is working.

21 MR. MARTIN: Thank you. My name is Chuck 

22 Martin. I represent the 49th House District in 

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1 Georgia. Chuck is spelled C-h-u-c-k. 

2 M-a-r-t-i-n.

3 I am a member of the Georgia House 

4 Energy, Public Utilities, and Telecommunications, 

5 and Chair of Energy, Public Utilities 

6 Subcommittee for Chairman Parsons and my fellow 

7 citizens in Georgia. I am the immediate past 

8 Chairman of the Southern Legislative Conference's 

9 Energy and Environment Committee, and I am the 

10 current Co-Chair of the Council of State 

11 Governments Energy and Environment Committee.

12 To be clear today, I am here in my 

13 individual capacity and to represent those that I 

14 represent in the State House. I also am here to 

15 represent my mother, a 77-year-old cancer 

16 survivor, and my two sons that are 24 and 27.

17 Ladies and gentlemen, I know there are 

18 people in this room that are on two sides, 

19 whether you think CO2 will or will not affect our 

20 environment over time. That is not what we are 

21 here to talk about today. We may all believe we 

22 are going to the same place. 

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1 I would like to talk to you today about 

2 how we're getting there and how this rule is 

3 relative to that, our economy, and each of us in 

4 America.

5 There are four building blocks that the 

6 EPA says states can use to get there. The first 

7 is to optimize fossil fuel-fired plants, 

8 primarily coal plants. They assume you can get a 

9 6 percent increase in a thermal transmission of 

10 those plants. Ladies and gentlemen, it's just 

11 not possible. New plants that have just been 

12 built that have been built to state-of-the-art 

13 standards can't get 6 percent overnight. They 

14 wish us to use more lower emitting fuel, such as 

15 natural gas. They wish that utilization to come 

16 up to 70 percent, yet in the polar vortex last 

17 year, if we had counted on that much natural gas, 

18 it would have been very cold in Ohio, because you 

19 cannot simply at this time deliver natural gas to 

20 the plants that exist, much less those that would 

21 be transferred to natural gas in the future.

22 We should use all of the above strategy, 

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1 but we can't do it tomorrow. We can't do it next 

2 year, and quite frankly, we can't do it by 2020.

3 They would have us use more zero and 

4 low-emitting sources. Renewable energy. That's 

5 wonderful. We should do that. American 

6 ingenuity has brought those forward for years in 

7 the past, and we continue to do that, yet we 

8 cannot continue to count on or we cannot count on 

9 in the future renewables, wind and solar as 

10 baseload generation. Had we been doing that in 

11 Ohio when the polar vortex came down, it would 

12 have gotten really cold.

13 They wish us to use electricity more 

14 efficiently. We have done that with light bulbs. 

15 We have replaced things, and our American 

16 ingenuity will continue to do that, yet the 

17 numbers that account for that simply do not exist 

18 to make this policy work by 2020. 

19 So my question is -- we have been assured 

20 in various cases. We can keep our clean 

21 affordable -- if we like it, we can keep our 

22 clean affordable energy, and we will be fine, but 

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1 we have heard that before recently in a different 

2 area, and it hasn't been to pass.

3 So I just want us to be eyes wide open 

4 that this rule, to get us to the place we may all 

5 want to go one day, is not achievable. The EPA's 

6 take on the rule says it will reduce electric 

7 bills 8 percent by 2030, yet our Public Service 

8 Commission in Georgia is already tasked to give 

9 us the cheapest energy of reliable and 

10 affordability.

11 So I would ask you this. When you take 

12 options for them off the table, when they are 

13 already mandated by law to provide the cheapest 

14 energy, how is energy going to get cheaper? They 

15 say there is going to be no impact on 

16 reliability, yet 121 gigawatts of baseload fossil 

17 fuel generation is scheduled to come offline 

18 according to the EPA's own documents. They say 

19 it will be a boon to the economy, yet tens of 

20 thousands of coal miners and thousands of union 

21 workers that haul coal around this country have 

22 lost their jobs, because it used to be 40 percent 

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1 of the railroads' cargo was coal, and that is 

2 going down every year.

3 Ladies and gentlemen, if coal comes off 

4 the trains, all the other products that ride on 

5 the trains are going to get more expensive in 

6 your department store or in your grocery store. 

7 If you don't believe that that will have a 

8 negative impact on the economy, we just differ.

9 They say it will spur the economy, yet 

10 time and again, innovation in this country has 

11 been spurred when government has allowed 

12 businesses to thrive and do things rather than 

13 placing limitations on them.

14 The EPA says it will work to develop 

15 plans in a time frame that is achievable, yet I 

16 stand before you today and tell you that the four 

17 building blocks are not achievable.

18 Ladies and gentlemen, if we need to get 

19 to a point, let's do that, but I would 

20 respectfully request that the EPA withdraw or 

21 amend this rule, including its timeline, to allow 

22 American ingenuity to work as it has for over two 

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1 centuries, so that we as American people can 

2 adopt and adapt and provide for our clean 

3 environment like we have better than anybody has 

4 in the world.

5 Thank you for allowing me to comment.

6 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Martin.

7 Our next two speakers will be Blaine 

8 Galliher and Jeremy Oden.

9 While they are coming to the stage, if 

10 you would also take this opportunity to take your 

11 electronic devices, and please turn them to 

12 silent or vibrate, so that we don't disturb the 

13 transcription or the testimony that is coming 

14 forward. Thank you.

15 MR. GALLIHER: Good morning. Blaine 

16 Galliher, Senior Advisor, Governor Bentley, 

17 B-l-a-i-n-e, G-a-l-l-i-h-e-r.

18 My comments today reflect Governor 

19 Bentley's deep philosophical belief and concern 

20 with EPA's proposed environmental regulations. 

21 These regulations will dictate how utilities 

22 generate power and how consumers use that power 

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1 for decades to come. In doing so, the proposal 

2 ineffectively restructures the electric sector. 

3 The costs are real; the benefits are not. The 

4 link between affordable energy and economic 

5 growth cannot be ignored.

6 Throughout Governor Bentley's term, 

7 Alabama has aggressively pursued new industry and 

8 jobs. Alabama's manufacturing industry has 

9 proven to be extremely valuable to our economy. 

10 In 2011, the manufacturing sector provided more 

11 than 237,000 direct jobs in Alabama and created 

12 many more indirect jobs and small businesses.

13 Alabama's manufacturing industry also 

14 produced more than $13 billion in exports. These 

15 economic contributions depend on low-cost energy. 

16 The compliance with the proposal for reductions 

17 in CO2 emissions by almost 30 percent will 

18 directly cost the state by increased energy 

19 rates, loss of jobs in industry, and a negative 

20 impact of less in energy reliability.

21 The U.S. Chamber of Commerce predicts 

22 that the compliance cost of these new regulations 

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1 will be $28 billion each year to 2030, which is a 

2 cumulative total of nearly $480 billion. This is 

3 three times larger than EPA's estimate. Rising 

4 electric rates would damage our gross domestic 

5 product. 

6 According to estimates, the loss in GDP 

7 will be $50 billion per year, peaking at $100-

8 billion in 2025. To bring these numbers into 

9 perspective, a typical family in Alabama would 

10 lose monthly disposable income during the time 

11 contemplated by the regulation. The impact on 

12 Alabama's poor families is disproportionate and 

13 devastating.

14 While it is abundantly clear that Alabama 

15 will incur these costs, the benefits are vague. 

16 Any claim that the proposed guidelines will make 

17 a material difference in global temperatures is 

18 dubious at best. Theoretically, the rule might 

19 reduce global concentration of carbon dioxide by 

20 less than 1 percent, and it might reduce global 

21 temperatures by less than 100th of a degree.

22 Governor Bentley feels that EPA's 

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1 proposal exceeds legal authority under the Clean 

2 Air Act. By this proposal, EPA attempts to 

3 require actions by entities which are not 

4 directly subject to the regulation on the Clean 

5 Air Act.

6 In doing so, EPA exceeds its authority. 

7 The Clean Air Act forbids Section 111(d) 

8 regulations based on emission reductions that 

9 cannot be achieved at individual facilities. 

10 EPA's goal calculation to be imposed on Alabama 

11 cannot meet this requirement, but instead relies 

12 on reductions by an entire system, state, and 

13 region to include facilities and state 

14 governments acting in tandem.

15 EPA also improperly, and outside of its 

16 authority, seeks to impose additional regulations 

17 under Section 111(d) of the Act on existing 

18 source categories already regulated. There is no 

19 question that existing coal-fired electric 

20 generating units are already regulated by Section 

21 112. Therefore, these may not be further 

22 regulated under Section 111(b), as EPA seeks to 

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1 do.

2 EPA seeks to perform an end run around 

3 the congressional mandate of the Clean Air Act 

4 and violates Congress' plain intent of Section 

5 112. This overreach ignores the constitutional 

6 principle of separation of powers and as a result 

7 runs headlong into the sovereign right of the 

8 states to protect the general welfare of their 

9 citizens.

10 Increased electricity costs and impacts 

11 on reliability. Historically, Alabama's retail 

12 electricity suppliers have achieved reliable, 

13 affordable energy by maintaining a balance of 

14 resources, including hydroelectric, coal, natural 

15 gas, nuclear, and renewables. This proposal 

16 effectively bans traditional coal-fired 

17 generating technology as a future supply option. 

18 This effective ban is despite the fact that this 

19 technology has provided reliable cost-effective 

20 electricity to Alabama consumers for decades. 

21 The predictable result will be a sharp increase 

22 in cost for energy and a noticeable decrease in 

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1 energy reliability.

2 Coal plant retirement would result in a 

3 diminished capacity of 114 gigawatts or about 40 

4 percent of existing capacity. EPA's proposal 

5 jeopardizes, again, reliability by reducing 

6 available resources for power generation during 

7 peak times of use and demand. The extreme cold 

8 of last winter provides the unmistakable lesson 

9 that fuel diversity is necessary to achieve both 

10 energy reliability and a cost-effective solution 

11 to our nation's power needs.

12 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Galliher.

13 MR. GALLIHER: May I conclude?

14 MS. TONEY: If you would please --

15 MR. GALLIHER: Two seconds.

16 MS. TONEY: -- give those remarks to us 

17 in written form, we will make sure that they are 

18 included in the record. Thank you so much.

19 MR. GALLIHER: I have submitted all the 

20 comments and sources in written form.

21 Thank you, ma'am.

22 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

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1 Mr. Oden?

2 MR. ODEN: Thank you. Jeremy Oden, 

3 Public Service Commissioner, State of Alabama, 

4 O-d-e-n.

5 I would like to first thank the 

6 Environment Protection Agency for hosting a

7 public hearing here and across the United States, 

8 especially here in the Southeast -- thank you --

9 and extending the comments to 60 days, making 

10 yourself available to state leaders, regulators, 

11 and various stakeholders.

12 As an elected official, I feel it is 

13 vital to get in front of those who have affected 

14 and listened to what the public has to say.

15 Under President Obama's Climate Action 

16 Plan, plants regulate carbon emissions on both 

17 new and existing sources, will have a 

18 far-reaching effect, and will decrease the 

19 reliability, affordability, and the fuel 

20 diversity of our electricity generation fleet.

21 Before addressing specific issues and 

22 presenting some of my own questions, I would like 

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1 to briefly give a foundation of my state, 

2 Alabama's electricity landscape. We are one of 

3 the largest producers of electricity in the 

4 nation, supplying our surrounding states with 

5 reliable and affordable energy. We have two 

6 nuclear plants within our borders, Browns Ferry 

7 and Farley, with Browns Ferry having the second 

8 largest generating capacity in the United States.

9 As of April 2014, this fuel source was 

10 over one-third of our state's generation. With 

11 over 20 hydroelectric dams as well, we are 

12 extremely fortunate to have this zero fuel cost, 

13 zero emission-generating source that provides 9 

14 percent of our state's electricity generation.

15 As Commissioner, I am charged with these 

16 duties to ensure safe, reliable, and affordable 

17 electricity to customers of regulated entities. 

18 While much debate can be had over regulating 

19 carbon emission and the effect it has on the 

20 climate, my comments today will focus on the rule 

21 itself and issues that need to be addressed in 

22 the final version.

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1 The EPA has chosen to use Section 111(d) 

2 in the Clean Air Act to propose regulations for 

3 carbon and direct the states to implement plans 

4 or SIPs for compliance. The Clean Power Plan 

5 uses best systems of emission reduction to 

6 control the CO2 emissions. With the EPA giving 

7 four building blocks for states to base their 

8 individual SIPs on. It is within these building 

9 blocks that I would like to focus this morning.

10 The first building block addresses the 

11 heat rate improvement for coal-fired 

12 electricity-generating units, or EGUs. With the 

13 EPA estimating a 6 percent reduction in CO2

14 emissions, these investments come to a great cost 

15 and are shouldered by the consumers and the 

16 customers of the utility. Utilities within our 

17 state have spent hundreds of millions of dollars 

18 within the last few years just to comply with 

19 various regulations and the costs associated with 

20 controlling the CO2 emissions and can potentially 

21 have an exponential amount of increase.

22 Look at the actions of the states that 

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1 you are considering in our country, and look at 

2 where we have been and what we have already done 

3 to comply to some of these measures.

4 Building block two. It calls for a 

5 re-dispatching of the EGUs from coal to gas with 

6 the EPA-suggested capacity factored for existing 

7 natural gas-combined units. It is up to 70 

8 percent ratio.

9 In relation to building block one, if I 

10 as a PSA Commissioner authorized the large 

11 investments to increase these heat ratios of 

12 coal-fired plants, one would expect that unit to 

13 run more often. Yet, within our CPP, utilities 

14 economic base would be forced to dispatch these 

15 in the environmental basis and not necessarily 

16 the low-cost economic basis.

17 Third building block speaks to zero 

18 carbon fuel sources, which includes renewable 

19 energies and nuclear generation, yet it 

20 completely ignores the original emission-free 

21 production of low-cost hydroelectricity and 

22 hydroelectric generation. With many nuclear 

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1 reactors facing relicense, combined with the low 

2 price of natural gas, choosing to close these 

3 emission-free fuel sources would only increase 

4 our reliance on fuel force and also fossil 

5 fuel-based generation. 

6 As a result of this, in the world today, 

7 we are seeing 72 new nuclear reactors going 

8 online. Only five of those are currently under 

9 consideration in the United States.

10 Finally, building block four. It relies 

11 on the end user efficiency status. We are 

12 looking at a 1.5 percent annually. The EE does 

13 not have many benefits. These programs come at a 

14 cost to the entire rate base, not just to 

15 consumers on the residential side but all 

16 consumers. The EE is unclear, and it is also 

17 almost unenforceable with its un-clarity.

18 Finally, I would like to summarize my 

19 comments, if I can. After looking at all four 

20 building blocks, the EPA's decision will decimate 

21 the cost factor of the utilities in which I have 

22 to regulate. These utilities will increases 

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1 their costs.

2 MS. TONEY: Mr. Smith, thank you. If you 

3 would --

4 MR. ODEN: I am Mr. Oden, but that's 

5 fine.

6 MS. TONEY: Mr. Oden. I apologize. 

7 Forgive me.

8 MR. ODEN: I do want to summarize that --

9 MS. TONEY: Well, if you will please 

10 provide those summaries for us, those written 

11 comments, we would greatly appreciate it and make 

12 sure that we include them in the transcription.

13 MR. ODEN: The biggest thing is --

14 MS. TONEY: Thank you both for coming.

15 MR. ODEN: -- those four building blocks 

16 is just not acceptable.

17 MS. TONEY: I appreciate that. Thank 

18 you, sir.

19 MR. ODEN: SO that's why we're -- thank 

20 you.

21 MS. TONEY: Thank you both, sirs, for 

22 those comments.

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1 MR. GALLIHER: Thank you, ma'am. Thank 

2 you.

3 MS. TONEY: At this time, we will have 

4 Mr. Steven Smith and -- please forgive me if I do 

5 not pronounce this correctly -- Flaco Aleman. I 

6 hope that I did get that pronunciation close. 

7 Thank you, sir.

8 MR. SMITH: You did get the "Smith" 

9 correct.

10 [Laughter.]

11 MS. TONEY: It is going to be a good day. 

12 All right. 

13 So we will begin with Mr. Smith followed 

14 by Mr. Aleman. Mr. Smith?

15 DR. SMITH: Great. Thank you for the 

16 opportunity to speak in strong support of the 

17 draft EPA Clean Power Plan. My name is Dr. 

18 Stephen Smith. I am the Executive Director of 

19 the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, 

20 CleanEnergy.org. 

21 Our organization works across the 

22 Southeast to reduce the health and environmental 

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1 impacts of how we produce and consume energy.

2 Trained in the sciences as a 

3 veterinarian, my biology and chemistry 

4 background, coupled with my training and systems 

5 theory, has enabled me to follow the complex yet 

6 rapidly changing global climate science and the 

7 increasingly apparent impacts of climate 

8 disruption.

9 While my training vocation motivated me 

10 to speak in support of the rule, my primary 

11 motivation is that I am a father of three sons, 

12 and I have two grandsons. It is in my role as a 

13 father and a grandfather that I worry the most 

14 about what kind of world we will leave for our 

15 children. I have been blessed in my 50-plus 

16 years to see and enjoy healthy coral reefs, 

17 beautiful beaches, biologically diverse mountain 

18 forests, abundant farms and gardens, never 

19 seriously worrying about our food supply. My 

20 years of healthy Southern living have been made 

21 possible by a stable climate, with few extremes, 

22 and the work of generations before me that 

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1 understood and accepted science and took actions 

2 that eradicated many vector-born diseases, 

3 diseases like malaria, in our region.

4 The commitment of every previous 

5 generation to attempt to leave the world better 

6 for the one who follows has made my life rich, 

7 comfortable, and fulfilling. I fear that my 

8 generation is not committed to the same future 

9 for our children. Rejecting science, failing to 

10 address and curb global warming pollution, which 

11 is leading to climate change and extreme climate 

12 disruption, shreds the intergenerational 

13 commitment of leaving a better world to our 

14 children. Irresponsibly passing a future of 

15 increasingly extreme climate will ensure that my 

16 children and grandchildren a much diminished 

17 life. This is not acceptable to me as a father 

18 and a grandfather.

19 Why, when we have the tools to address 

20 this problem, would we choose to place our 

21 children's future in peril? Having spent much of 

22 my professional career studying the energy 

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1 sector, I know that we have low- or no-carbon 

2 technologies like renewable energy that are cost 

3 effective today. We have a deep well of energy 

4 efficiency technologies that can dramatically 

5 reduce waste and squeeze more work out of each 

6 kilowatt we produce.

7 There is no technological reason why we 

8 are not solving the climate crisis. What is 

9 blocking our fulfillment of this 

10 intergenerational bond of a better world? It is 

11 simply those who have a financial interest in the 

12 current high-carbon pollution investments. These 

13 individuals and their companies have a vested 

14 interest in not addressing this critical issue. 

15 They have intentionally muddied the water with 

16 pseudoscience, obstructed the political and 

17 regulatory processes with mouthpieces that have 

18 bought into, both figuratively and literally, 

19 their misinformation campaign.

20 Today, many of these individuals will be 

21 speaking here -- we have actually heard some 

22 already -- questioning the scientific consensus, 

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1 warning of economic calamity, and downplaying the 

2 risk.

3 My favorite argument against this role 

4 has been offered by my friends in the utility 

5 industry. They complain about how complicated 

6 this rule is. "The most complicated rule ever 

7 issued," I've heard them say. Of course, these 

8 are the same voices that have repeatedly called 

9 for greater flexibility in rulemaking.

10 See, if EPA had issued a 

11 command-and-control emission target, these voices 

12 would cry, "It was too prescriptive," and not 

13 flexible enough. Now given a flexible rule with 

14 multiple pathways of compliance, it is too 

15 complicated. Let us not make this too 

16 complicated. The objection to this rule is here 

17 for one reason and one reason only: to protect 

18 the interest of the industries that emit carbon 

19 pollution or protect their investment in 

20 technologies that emit large amounts of carbon at 

21 all of our expense. They ignore the innovation, 

22 the technological advancement, and the power of a 

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1 properly configured market to solve this problem, 

2 choosing instead to cling to an outdated world 

3 view and business model.

4 Yes, in a free society, they have that 

5 right, but one right they do not have is to allow 

6 their poorly conceived business interest to shred 

7 the intergenerational compact of all mothers and 

8 fathers, myself included. That we will leave the 

9 world a better place than the one we inherited 

10 for our children and grandchildren. 

11 That is why I ask EPA to move forward 

12 with deliberate speed on this long overdue, 

13 modest rule to start us on a path to the future 

14 of addressing carbon pollution. 

15 Thank you.

16 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Dr. Smith.

17 [Applause and cheering.] 

18 MS. TONEY: Thank you, ladies and 

19 gentlemen.

20 Please, before we go on, let me remind 

21 you, I do know that there will be some comments 

22 that do incite some encouragement from the crowd, 

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1 but I would please ask you if you would hold your 

2 applause, so that we can be fair to all that are 

3 speaking, and that we can make sure the 

4 transcription is done correctly and properly.

5 Thank you, Dr. Smith.

6 Mr. Aleman.

7 MR. ALEMAN: Hi. My name is Flaco 

8 Aleman. I am the Executive Director for Kentucky 

9 Jobs with Justice.

10 Kentucky Jobs with Justice is a coalition 

11 of faith, labor, and community organizations 

12 spread across the State of Kentucky. In 

13 addition, we have over 10,000 activists spread 

14 across the state, from eastern Kentucky to 

15 northern Kentucky to the far western reaches of 

16 the state.

17 I would like to begin with a brief story. 

18 In 2014, five times I have been hospitalized for 

19 complications because of asthma, twice in March. 

20 One of those times in March, my 18-year-old 

21 daughter stood by my side in tears as she 

22 listened to the doctors worry that I was going 

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1 into cardiac arrest because I couldn't breathe.

2 Time after time after time, doctors tried 

3 to figure out what was triggering the asthma. As 

4 it turns out, many of you may know that the Ohio 

5 Valley is home to one of the highest asthma rates 

6 in the country. Over 13 percent of the people in 

7 Kentucky have asthma due to our complications and 

8 the poor health hazards that we have.

9 Many people are aware of the coal fields 

10 that we have in the eastern and western parts of 

11 the state, and one of the things that has become 

12 pretty complicated, a complicated question, is 

13 how do we blend together good renewable energy 

14 laws with our coal friends in the coal mines.

15 The United Mine Workers of America have 

16 been longtime friends and partners with ours, and 

17 one of the things that we have continued to 

18 stress is that as we begin to look at these new 

19 rules that the EPA is proposing, that we enforce 

20 these new rules, and that we also take a look at 

21 the rules. I know looking at the proposed rules, 

22 they seem to focus on the end-of-pipes' carbon 

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1 dioxide emissions, which is wrong, because one of 

2 the things that does is it leaves the value of 

3 human lives at stake, people such as myself, 

4 people such as my children, and those 13 percent 

5 of us Kentuckians who suffer from asthma-related 

6 problems.

7 One of the things that the current EPA 

8 proposed rule does not do is that it does not 

9 recognize that coal-fired and nuclear power 

10 plants are incompatible with renewable-based 

11 electrical grids. It is far past time that we 

12 not only move the United States forward, but we 

13 move Kentucky forward off of dirty energy, off of 

14 dirty coal, and on to clean renewable energy 

15 sources.

16 One of the things that we know is that 

17 the price is dropping drastically for solar and 

18 wind energy. Both of those are prime for the 

19 State of Kentucky.

20 We look at the state of mountaintop 

21 removal in Kentucky because of greedy coal 

22 companies who care nothing for my health, for the 

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1 health of my children, or for the health of my 

2 fellow Kentuckians, and we need EPA today to take 

3 a strong stand and not take a meager position on 

4 these new rules.

5 We are asking that you protect the 

6 over-couple-million folks in Kentucky and all 

7 Americans in protecting us from greedy coal 

8 companies. We know as long as the coal companies 

9 and our Senators who bend at their whim have 

10 their way, we are going to continue to die at 

11 tremendous rates.

12 We are going to continue to have 

13 asthma-related problems, and being a person who 

14 doesn't have health insurance, when I have to pay 

15 for my asthma medication, I can tell you it's a 

16 far cry from being cheap. Each asthma inhaler 

17 costs me approximately $75, and in the current 

18 state lasts about 2 weeks. So every 2 weeks, I 

19 am spending $75 just on an asthma inhaler for 

20 myself alone.

21 We have a new child, and we are worried 

22 that our new child is going to have asthma, as 

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1 well, because we live in Ohio Valley.

2 We saw just a couple weeks ago that the 

3 Louisville Gas and Electric Company had a leeway 

4 in the law that allowed them to dump into the 

5 Ohio River, and what they have done is exploited 

6 that loophole in the law. There was a camera set 

7 up for almost a year watching them pour tons and 

8 tons and tons of pollution into our river, not 

9 mentioning the amount of pollution they are 

10 pouring into our air.

11 We have in Louisville alone over three 

12 coal-fired plants that are producing dirty 

13 emissions, that are killing our people in 

14 Kentucky, and we need the EPA today to stand 

15 strong to protect our lives and to protect our 

16 jobs.

17 Thank you.

18 MS. TONEY: Thank you, gentlemen.

19 Can we have, please, at this time, 

20 Claudia Haynes and Luther Strange. Claudia 

21 Haynes. Claudia Haynes and Luther Strange.

22 [Pause.]

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1 MS. TONEY: Is Claudia Haynes present?

2 [No audible response.]

3 MS. TONEY: If Claudia Haynes is not 

4 present, going once, going twice --

5 [No audible response.]

6 MS. TONEY: All right. Lyle Lansdell.

7 [Pause.]

8 MS. TONEY: Thank you. We will begin 

9 with Mr. Strange.

10 MR. STRANGE: Good morning, and thank 

11 you. It's Luther Strange, S-t-r-a-n-g-e.

12 MS. TONEY: Mr. Strange, give me just a 

13 second. I want to make sure you get your full 

14 time on our timer. Now go ahead.

15 MR. STRANGE: Great. Thank you very 

16 much, and good morning. I appreciate this

17 opportunity very much.

18 My name is Luther Strange. I am the 

19 Attorney General of the State of Alabama.

20 As Attorney General, my sworn duty is to 

21 uphold the rule of law for our 4.8 million 

22 hardworking men and women in Alabama. That duty 

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1 includes enforcing the environmental laws that 

2 help protect our natural resources and the health 

3 of our citizens.

4 One of the most important matters that I 

5 am dealing with as Attorney General is serving as 

6 the Coordinating Counsel for the Gulf States in 

7 the historic BP oil spill litigation that 

8 devastated Alabama. Alabama's coastline was 

9 covered in oil, and our economy was shut down for 

10 months as a result of the spill. So I understand 

11 firsthand the importance of environmental 

12 regulations.

13 With that said, my comments today reflect 

14 a continuing concern with this administration's 

15 approach to environmental regulation. EPA's 

16 proposed guidelines for existing power plant 

17 Purple Line performance standards under the Clean 

18 Air Act Section 111(d) are simply the most recent 

19 example of the Federal Government's usurping 

20 authorities properly delegated to the states.

21 The defense of this proposal will be that 

22 the states have, quote, flexibility, but 

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1 providing the states with a narrow range of 

2 costly policy choices, which most of the states 

3 did not choose for themselves, does not provide 

4 any actual flexibility and still produces the 

5 same outcome, higher electricity prices and 

6 decreased generation. Repeating over and over 

7 the word "flexibility" is not an adequate defense 

8 or an adequate answer to the low-income consumers 

9 in my state or any other state who will ask why 

10 they must pay more to reduce CO2 emissions when 

11 those reductions cannot and will not impact the 

12 global climate.

13 Congress did not intend the Clean Air Act 

14 Section 111(d) to have such far-reaching 

15 consequences for the American people. Indeed, to 

16 prevent impact, such as those, that will flow 

17 from EPA's proposed emission guidelines, Congress 

18 took care to limit EPA's authority under Section 

19 111(d).

20 Given the enormous burdens that would be 

21 imposed by EPA's proposed guidelines, however, it 

22 may be obvious that EPA has simply disregarded 

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1 the limits of the law. Those limits, moreover, 

2 are not questionable or controversial. They are 

3 expressed in clear elements of the Clean Air Act.

4 First, the Clean Air Act forbids 

5 regulating sources under Section 111(d) if they 

6 are regulated under Section 112 of the Act. 

7 Existing electric utility generating units are 

8 regulated under Section 112.

9 Second, the Clean Air Act also forbids 

10 Section 111(d) regulations that are based on 

11 emission reductions that cannot be achieved at 

12 individual facilities, whether they instead rely 

13 on reductions that require actions by an entire 

14 system, including facilities acting in tandem, 

15 state governments, and even electricity 

16 consumers. EPA's proposed emission guidelines 

17 fully embrace a system-wide approach to 

18 regulation.

19 Third, EPA has improperly attempted to 

20 limit Section 111(d)'s expressed statutory 

21 authority, delegation of authority to the states, 

22 and in doing so, EPA's proposal not only rejects 

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1 state discretion under the Clean Air Act but 

2 jettisons decades of unquestioned precedent 

3 establishing state jurisdiction over electricity 

4 markets.

5 In conclusion, the State of Alabama 

6 vigorously opposes EPA's proposed mandate to

7 effectively restructure the electric sector, as 

8 it would have disastrous consequences for 

9 electric reliability and the economy. These 

10 consequences, moreover, would all stem from a 

11 patently unlawful application of the Clean Air 

12 Act. EPA's proposal seeks to expand the scope of 

13 Section 111(d) in an unprecedented manner. It 

14 would do so at the expense of state authority 

15 that is expressly identified and preserved in the 

16 Clean Air Act and in the unquestionable 

17 jurisdiction of states over intra-state 

18 electricity markets. And it would do all of 

19 these things for no discernible benefit.

20 Given the increasing ambitions of China 

21 and other developing economies, there is no 

22 rationale that can support such a regulation, and 

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1 the proposed rule should be withdrawn.

2 Thank you very much for this opportunity 

3 to express my views this morning. We greatly 

4 appreciate it.

5 MS. TONEY: Thank you very much.

6 Ms. Lansdell?

7 MS. LANSDELL: My name is Lyle Lansdell. 

8 I worked for my whole adult life in --

9 MS. TONEY: Would you please spell your 

10 name for the transcript.

11 MS. LANSDELL: Lansdell, L-a-n-s-d-e-l-l. 

12 First name, L-y-l-e.

13 I've worked for 35 years or so in health 

14 research, the last 25 years of those in 

15 epidemiology, conducting epidemiology studies.

16 But I came home 5 years ago to my 

17 hometown, Sandersville, Georgia, to save my 

18 family farm, and farming is not an easy job in 

19 any case, but it's made much more difficult by 

20 weather that is made more erratic by global 

21 warming.

22 And I want to thank you for creating your 

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1 plan and regulations, and I hardly support you.

2 Just to give a couple of examples, 2 

3 years ago, it started in middle Georgia. 

4 Temperatures of 102 started in May and went on 

5 through August, and 1 year ago in June, mostly in 

6 June, we had 49 inches of rain, when the usual 

7 rainfall would have been about 7 inches. So if 

8 you can try to imagine growing vegetables and 

9 livestock in those two extreme conditions, it is 

10 very difficult, and I fear that it will only get 

11 worse.

12 I am a group of Middle Georgia 

13 sustainable farmers. To give a plug for 

14 sustainable farming, perhaps small diverse farms 

15 may be able to provide some food for communities 

16 when huge mono-crop conventional farms may have 

17 whole crops fail in very bad weather events. So 

18 if there is anything the EPA can do to protect 

19 the structure of sustainable farming, please 

20 continue to do so.

21 As for your soliciting comments on more 

22 stringent regulations, earlier due dates, more 

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1 costly measures, I would opt for all of those, 

2 because I believe that the costs that we will 

3 incur and havoc that we will incur many decades 

4 from now from not having stringent regulations 

5 will be much worse than we will incur in the next 

6 decades or so. In other words, worrying about 

7 jobs and costs in the next decade will only make 

8 the hardship of the costs and disastrous 

9 consequences worse in the decades following. 

10 I believe that human beings are 

11 unfortunately shortsighted, and I'm worried about 

12 the world that we will leave to our great 

13 grandchildren. I think human beings are not able 

14 to manage how bad it might get to be. It's not a 

15 few days that go by that you don't hear on the 

16 news that sea levels are rising faster than we 

17 thought and the glaciers are melting faster than 

18 they thought, and there will be more extreme 

19 weather events than we thought and so on.

20 So thank you very much for holding these 

21 hearings and for hearing me today.

22 MS. TONEY: Thank you, and thank you 

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1 both.

2 We will now hear from Howard Feldman and 

3 Lee Boone.

4 [Pause.]

5 MS. TONEY: We will begin with Mr. 

6 Feldman.

7 MR. FELDMAN: Good morning. Thank you 

8 very much for holding this hearing today. It is 

9 appreciated. I am Howard J. Feldman, and I am 

10 representing the American Petroleum Institute. 

11 API represents over 600 oil and natural gas 

12 companies, leaders of a technology-driven 

13 industry that supplies most of America's energy, 

14 supports more than 9.8 million jobs and 8 percent 

15 of the U.S. economy, and since 2000 has invested 

16 nearly $2 trillion in U.S. capital projects to 

17 advance all forms of energy, including 

18 alternatives.

19 Our members are dedicated to continuous 

20 efforts to improve the compatibility of our 

21 operations with the environment and our 

22 communities, while economically developing energy 

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1 resources and supplying high-quality products and 

2 services to consumers. We recognize our 

3 responsibility to work with the public, the 

4 government, and others to develop and use natural 

5 resources in an environmentally sound manner, 

6 while protecting the health and safety of our 

7 employees in the public.

8 Many of our members will be directly 

9 impacted by the proposed new source performance 

10 standards rulemaking, which is the focus of 

11 today's public hearing.

12 I have three key points I would like to 

13 make today. First, our industry is doing its 

14 part to contribute to the reduction in carbon 

15 dioxide emissions through the increased 

16 production of clean natural gas.

17 Second, this rulemaking is problematic. 

18 It threatens our industry's international 

19 competitiveness due to higher energy costs.

20 Third, we have specific concerns with the 

21 proposal and the precedence it sets. Among our 

22 concerns is EPA's approach to base the state's 

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1 target reductions on the use of 

2 outside-the-fence-line reductions and the 

3 possible imposition of reduction requirements on 

4 non-EGU facilities.

5 Furthermore, this rulemaking and related 

6 111(b) rulemaking needs to be modified to avoid 

7 adversely impacting the use of cogeneration at 

8 industrial facilities.

9 First, as you're probably aware, 

10 America's energy revolution has changed the 

11 global landscape, thanks to innovations in the 

12 oil and gas industry, particularly hydraulic 

13 fracturing and horizontal drilling. America is 

14 now the number-one producer of natural gas in the 

15 world and is on course to become the number-one 

16 producer of oil.

17 Market-driven forces are helping us to 

18 use these fuels efficiently, and with the growth 

19 of natural gas, U.S. carbon dioxide emissions are 

20 now near 20-year lows, without job-destroying 

21 regulations.

22 Our members at API believe that economic 

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1 prosperity and environmental progress are not 

2 mutually exclusive. From 2000 to 2012, America's 

3 oil and natural gas industry invested more in 

4 zero- and low-emissions technologies than the 

5 Federal Government and nearly as much as all 

6 other industries combined.

7 But America's success as an energy super 

8 power depends on an all-of-the-above strategy 

9 where new rules are designed to complement, not 

10 strangle, the renaissance America is 

11 experiencing, thanks to new energy production.

12 Second, this rulemaking is problematic. 

13 Unfortunately, the proposed EPA rule ignores the 

14 successful example of our free market and 

15 guarantees adverse consequences for nearly every 

16 consumer and business in the United States. 

17 American refineries, for example, have been a 

18 tremendous bright spot in the U.S. economy, but 

19 energy is the second largest cost associated with 

20 operating a competitive refinery.

21 Given the potential impact of the rule on 

22 electricity prices, businesses like these will 

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1 have no choice but to reevaluate new investments 

2 based on electricity sources that are less 

3 affordable and less secure. The uncertainty 

4 caused by this rule could have a chilling effect 

5 on investments throughout the manufacturing 

6 sector, potentially costing millions of jobs and 

7 damaging all aspects of our economy.

8 Moreover, by eliminating diversity in our 

9 fuel choices, this rule creates the potential of 

10 future electricity shortages and price spikes 

11 that would do great harm to those who can least 

12 afford it: hardworking American consumers. 

13 Third, we have specific concerns 

14 regarding the proposal and the precedence it 

15 sets. EPA's proposed approach to set 

16 state-specific emissions reduction goals based on 

17 analysis that takes into account emissions 

18 reductions that occur outside the fence line of 

19 the fossil fuel EGU that are subject to proposed 

20 regulation, EPA's reliance on these 

21 outside-the-fence-line options dramatically 

22 expand the scope of the best system of emissions 

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1 reductions, beyond the fossil fuel EGU, subject 

2 to regulation, and exceeds the scope of EPA's 

3 authority under the Clean Air Act.

4 Furthermore, we think that the final rule 

5 should indicate explicitly that EPA and the 

6 states do not have the legal authority to require 

7 emissions reductions from outside the EGU.

8 Finally, we're concerned about the impact 

9 on cogeneration facilities, combined heat and 

10 power facilities capturing utilized heat. The 

11 111(b) rule needs to be modified to avoid 

12 bringing these sources in, and this 111(d) 

13 rulemaking needs to reflect that.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

16 Mr. Boone.

17 MR. BOONE: Yes. My name is Lee Boone. 

18 That's L-e-e, B-o-o-n-e. I am Chairman of the 

19 Heard County Board of Commissioners, which his 

20 located here in Georgia.

21 I am not here to talk about the science 

22 of carbon emissions because I am not a scientist. 

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1 I am not here to talk about the health aspects of 

2 carbon emissions because I am not a medical 

3 doctor. But I am Chief Executive Officer of a 

4 county that has a coal-fired plant in it.

5 Georgia Power's Plant Wansley is located 

6 in the northeast portion of Heard County. The 

7 residential growth in the northern portion of the 

8 county over the past 25 years has been 

9 unprecedented. Georgia Power is the largest 

10 industrial employer in the county and has been 

11 the financial backbone of our community since 

12 they generated the first kilowatt of electricity 

13 from that plant.

14 I have personally witnessed three 

15 generations of local residents who work there, 

16 live the American dream, by earning a respectable 

17 wage, raise a family, and being able to build a 

18 home to call their own.

19 Georgia Power is, and has been, the most 

20 sought-after place to work, and they are in fact 

21 the economic driver for Heard County.

22 Georgia Power spent millions of dollars 

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1 to build a new scrubber to comply with a change 

2 in EPA regulations to reduce carbon emissions. 

3 Now, as Chairman of the Board, I am in a position 

4 that would make me directly aware of any 

5 health-related issues in our county as a direct 

6 result of the current emissions, and there are 

7 none that I am aware of.

8 After the project was complete and a 

9 letter of compliance was achieved, Heard County 

10 was assured on the continuing purchase of coal; 

11 therefore, the county felt confident to proceed 

12 with our long-term plan of capital improvements. 

13 The sales tax from the purchase of coal 

14 constitutes 35 percent of the total revenues paid 

15 to the General Fund of Heard County. The 

16 additional 1 cent SPLOST tax on the same coal has 

17 fundamentally transformed Heard County with many 

18 capital improvements.

19 For example, a once-volunteer fire 

20 department is now a fully staffed department, 

21 occupying nine fire stations, armed with the 

22 latest modern equipment, including modern

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1 ambulances occupied by a paramedic and EMT. 

2 Calls are received and dispatched by a central 

3 communication center with an enhanced 911 system 

4 equipped with the latest in technology. All of 

5 these are 24/7 departments.

6 Tar a gravel roads are now asphalt roads, 

7 and many dirt roads are now paved roads, and many 

8 homes with wells are now connected to a county 

9 water system.

10 Our children are enjoying recreation 

11 activities on an 85-acre sports complex, which 

12 has proven itself by helping to build character 

13 and discover hidden talents and athletic 

14 abilities they were unaware of. 

15 The local school board sold bonds on 

16 anticipated SPLOST revenues and built new 

17 elementary, middle, and high schools.

18 There is still bond indebtedness on these 

19 projects. If the EPA stops the use of coal as a 

20 source to produce energy, the capital projects in 

21 Heard County will abruptly end. Vital services 

22 such as fire protection, EMS, and law enforcement 

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1 directly contributing to the health and welfare 

2 of our citizens will be compromised. Schools may 

3 be forced to close, and the economic impact would 

4 devastating our way of life, undermining 

5 everything we have achieved, and permanently 

6 cripple our infrastructure.

7 The loss of sales tax revenues from the 

8 elimination of coal purchases cannot be 

9 transferred to the property owners and will put 

10 Heard County on the road to insolvency. This 

11 will be the fate of our county, and I can only 

12 imagine the devastating ripple effect that will 

13 be felt across this nation.

14 Thank you.

15 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Boone.

16 [Applause.]

17 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

18 We will now have Mr. Echols -- Tim Echols 

19 and John Noel.

20 If you would, please spell your names for 

21 the transcriber.

22 Mr. Echols.

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1 MR. ECHOLS: Good morning. I am Tim 

2 Echols, E-c-h-o-l-s, and I am a Commissioner on 

3 the Georgia Public Service Commission. In fact, 

4 we are one of only 12 states that elect our 

5 regulators, and all five of us on the Public 

6 Service Commission face the voters every 6 years. 

7 All five of us have great concern about the rule.

8 I am here today really to tell you that 

9 Georgia has made enormous progress with air 

10 quality, and it is my hope that the proposed rule 

11 will be withdrawn.

12 Since 2008 within the Georgia Power 

13 system, did you realize our CO2 is down 30 

14 percent? Mercury and NOx are both down 85 

15 percent, and SOx is down 90 percent.

16 Today, we have 411 CNG buses in Atlanta's 

17 bus fleet. You may have taken one over this 

18 morning. I came in, in an electric car, and we 

19 are the number-one market in America for the 

20 Nissan Leaf. I also own one of those. We are 

21 also the fastest-growing solar state in America, 

22 and by the way, we have done all of this without 

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1 an RPS, and we have done all of this without this 

2 rule. And we've done it all maintaining 

3 competitive rates, which is so important. We've 

4 made great progress, but this rule is going to 

5 force us to strand assets and to raise energy 

6 prices. There's no doubt.

7 In 2005, 60 percent of Georgia Power's 

8 generation was coal. Today, it's 26 percent. In 

9 2005, we had only 3 percent of our generation 

10 powered by natural gas. Today, it's almost 30 

11 percent, a ten-fold growth, and we're building, 

12 as you know, two new nuclear reactors just on the 

13 Savannah River at Plant Vogtle.

14 It was in February of this year when 

15 Commissioner McDonald, my colleague, and I sat 

16 with President Obama's climate advisors in the 

17 Old Executive Office Building at their 

18 invitation, where we were told that without a 

19 substantial growth in nuclear power, the 

20 President's clean energy goals could not be met, 

21 yet this rule does not send the signals to 

22 trigger the enormous investment required to do 

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1 what we're doing here in Georgia and over in 

2 South Carolina.

3 I don't have to tell you that all of the 

4 country's nuclear fleet is under economic stress. 

5 That same low-cost natural gas that has allowed 

6 us to fuel-switch all of these coal plants has 

7 made nuclear power less competitive as well, 

8 especially in FERC jurisdictional markets and in 

9 the Wind Corridor in America.

10 Nuclear generation is undervalued in the 

11 marketplace. States need to join Georgia and 

12 South Carolina and recognize the importance of 

13 the nuclear fleet and adopt policies that will 

14 allow us to develop reactors like we're doing. 

15 Unfortunately, the rule doesn't go far enough. 

16 In fact, the new rule, most likely, will make us 

17 even more dependent on natural gas.

18 A simple calculation illustrated recently 

19 by FERC Commissioner Norris demonstrates that the 

20 country's gas-fired fleet already emits more CO2

21 than our 2050 national target. Therefore, it 

22 seems paramount that any rule must substantially 

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1 incent new and existing nuclear power far more 

2 than this rule does. The rule's evaluation of 

3 the cost and impact of new requirements assume 

4 that Plant Vogtle's Units 3 and 4 add zero 

5 dollars to Georgia's CO2 reduction efforts. This 

6 rule assumes that the Georgia PSC and Vogtle 

7 owners did not consider the cost of carbon at all 

8 when we certified Plant Vogtle as a 

9 carbon-free-emitting resource. Nothing could be 

10 further from the truth.

11 In fact, our ongoing monitoring of this 

12 plant continues to consider the cost of carbon 

13 every 6 months, but you can bet the cost is not 

14 zero dollars, as this rule assumes. 

15 In fact, in January, during the polar 

16 vortex, natural gas prices soared, especially in 

17 New York and New England. One New York plant 

18 operator told me that it was cheaper to burn oil 

19 in New York State 21 out of the 31 days than 

20 natural gas during the polar vortex. That's a 

21 crisis.

22 We've built a model here in Georgia that 

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1 provides flexibility, so that we can use the most 

2 cost-effective fuel source at any time. Under 

3 this rule, that will be over. We have gone to 

4 great lengths to create a diverse portfolio to 

5 protect our ratepayers. This rule unravels all 

6 the planning that we've done for 20 years. Under 

7 this rule, a good economy becomes an enemy, and a 

8 polar vortex could trigger a substantial fuel 

9 cost. Under this rule, we ignore the impact and 

10 cost to ratepayers.

11 Let me just wrap up by saying things are 

12 on the right track here in Georgia. This rule 

13 bypasses the federal and state legislature --

14 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Echols.

15 MR. ECHOLS: -- ties the hand of the 

16 Governor and usurps my authority as a 

17 constitutional officer.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Echols.

20 Mr. Noel, or is it "Noel"?

21 MR. NOEL: In Christmastime, it's "Noel."

22 MS. TONEY: All right. Mr. Noel.

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1 MR. NOEL: All right, thank you.

2 Well, Mr. Echols, I want you to know I 

3 came in on an electric car, also.

4 MR. ECHOLS: Congratulations.

5 MR. NOEL: Good morning, folks, and thank 

6 you to EPA. I am John Noel, President and CEO of 

7 a 40-year-old investment real estate company in 

8 Nashville, and I wish to advance the notion that 

9 the recent Environmental Protection Agency rule 

10 to reduce carbon dioxide pollution will be good 

11 for business.

12 No industry has been given as much free 

13 rein to pollute our air in our country's history, 

14 and now, thankfully, reasonable action is being 

15 taken.

16 Here are four reasons why EPA power rules 

17 makes sense and will be good for business.

18 Number one. It will keep energy costs 

19 low. Under this rule, the states can have a 

20 diversity of cost-effective options that motivate 

21 innovation. Various scientific reports find that 

22 EPA power plant rules could generate $35 billion 

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1 in savings by 2020, savings businesses' and 

2 customers' money, while also creating 275,000 

3 jobs, jobs from solar installers, roofers, 

4 carpenters, and others.

5 Since 2009, the solar industry has 

6 increased tenfold. Many states are uniquely 

7 positioned to achieve EPA's proposed reductions. 

8 TVA since 2005 has reduced carbon dioxide 

9 approximately 23 percent, primarily by coal plant 

10 closures, and are on track to be 40 percent. 

11 Colorado and Wisconsin are in a similar position.

12 Several industry and science studies of 

13 major electrical grid systems, which collectively 

14 supply some 60 percent of the power to the United 

15 States shows that renewable energy provides 

16 system-wide cost savings to the tune of tens of 

17 billions of dollars a year.

18 Number two. This will hasten a 

19 transition to clean energy. There is a natural 

20 attrition of the closer of existing electrical 

21 coal plants, and according to the CitiGroup, new 

22 electrical generation by 2020 in the U.S. could 

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1 come from renewable energy sources if recent 

2 price trends continue.

3 The new EPA rules will level the playing 

4 field and encourage more investment in clean 

5 energy. Many states and large companies are 

6 finding renewable energy to be the cheapest 

7 option for electric generation and investing in 

8 these renewables primarily because of the 

9 cost-effective sources of energy.

10 Number three. Businesses are already 

11 paying the price for climate change. More 

12 extreme weather and disorderly weather patterns, 

13 such as precipitation, heat waves, drought, are 

14 disrupting the supply systems and the ability to 

15 produce timely goods and services.

16 The transportation systems are 

17 compromised by flooding the roads, rivers, and 

18 coastal infrastructure.

19 On a personal note, I am from Nashville, 

20 and the 2010 flood came within 2 inches of 

21 knocking out the last water treatment plant and 

22 shutting down the city's water supply. Due to 

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1 these events, insurance costs have risen across 

2 the business board. Crop yields have become less 

3 predictable and more price volatile. Businesses 

4 are increasingly making the connection between 

5 carbon and climate disruption, recognizing the 

6 risks and understanding that reducing CO2 is 

7 essential for business operations.

8 With 160-plus countries and 97 percent of 

9 the climate scientists in agreement, it is clear 

10 that people and co are the main cause of climate 

11 change and its resulting disruption. 

12 The recent Climate Action Assessment 

13 clearly details the far-reaching consequences 

14 that climate change poses to our health and 

15 natural resources.

16 And the last one, number four. Business 

17 asserts itself as a world leader. The 

18 administration's CO2 reduction announcements sends 

19 a vigorous message to the world that we are 

20 serious about the climate threat, that the 

21 standards that lay down for the climate action 

22 and stabilization for generations to come will be 

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1 here. Well-funded climate deniers will continue 

2 to sow the seeds of doubt, but in truth, these 

3 rules are reasonable and long overdue. These 

4 rules simply make sense for our planet, our 

5 future, and our business.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. TONEY: Thank you, gentlemen.

8 [Applause.]

9 MS. TONEY: Ladies and gentlemen in the 

10 audience, I appreciate your enthusiasm. Trust 

11 me, I love the energy, but please don't make me 

12 be a spoiled sport. We want to make sure that we 

13 are fair to everyone.

14 May we have Luis Martinez and Ashten 

15 Bailey please join us on the podium.

16 As they are coming to the podium, let me 

17 remind those who may have just joined us, please 

18 make sure that you sign in at the EPA 

19 registration table, and we also have materials 

20 there, if you would like more information on 

21 today's topic.

22 We have Luis Martinez and Ashten Bailey.

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1 You are?

2 MR. MARTINEZ: Luis.

3 MS. TONEY: Mr. Martinez?

4 MR. MARTINEZ: Yes.

5 MS. TONEY: Okay. Ashten Baily going 

6 once, going twice.

7 [No audible response.]

8 MS. TONEY: Is Robert Stamper present? 

9 Robert Stamper.

10 [Pause.]

11 MS. TONEY: Go ahead. Thank you.

12 MR. MARTINEZ: Good morning. Thank you 

13 for the opportunity to speak here today. My name 

14 is Luis, L-u-i-s, Martinez, M-a-r-t-i-n-e-z, and 

15 I work for the Natural Resources Defense Council 

16 for the past 10 years, and I live in Asheville, 

17 North Carolina.

18 I am the father of two boys, ages 4 and

19 1-1/2, who love exploring the outdoors and are 

20 pretty terrified of the crazy thunderstorms we 

21 get lately, and they stand to inherit the 

22 problems that we create.

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1 I am also the son of an asthmatic mother, 

2 and even though she tries to not let that slow 

3 her down much, hot days are always very 

4 troublesome.

5 It is on their behalf and on behalf of 

6 the close to 1.5 million members and activists 

7 that NRDC has that I am here to strongly support 

8 the Environmental Protection Agency's Clean Power 

9 Plan. I also want to thank EPA and President 

10 Obama for taking action to address climate 

11 change. It is NRDC's top institutional priority 

12 to address climate change, and we believe it is 

13 the greatest climate crisis, the greatest 

14 environmental issue that we are facing.

15 Climate change may be a global problem, 

16 but its impacts are very personal, and none of us 

17 can escape it. My wife and I met in New Orleans 

18 during law school and fell in love with the city. 

19 We left a few years before Katrina hit, but like 

20 many of you, we saw with terror as the storm it 

21 and the lives of our friends, neighbors were 

22 destroyed.

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1 After 8 years living in northern New 

2 Jersey and working in New York, we left for North 

3 Carolina just a few months before Super Storm 

4 Sandy hit that area, and yet again, we saw the 

5 lives of our friends, neighbors, colleagues 

6 impacted by these extreme weather events.

7 While we know we were very lucky to not 

8 be in the path of those horrible storms, we also 

9 know that when it comes to climate change, we are 

10 all standing in the path of it, and we need to 

11 address it.

12 In the Southeast, for example -- and now 

13 that we are in North Carolina, we know we are in 

14 the path of climate change. In the Southeast,

15 the National Climate Assessment predicts that we 

16 will experience a greater heat index increase 

17 than any other region in the United States. That 

18 is temperature and humidity or how hot it feels. 

19 The Southeast will be the most impacted region.

20 We also know that since 1980, the 

21 Southeast has had more billion-dollar weather 

22 disasters than any other region of the United 

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1 States, and climate change is expected to 

2 exacerbate those.

3 For too long, we have been using our 

4 atmosphere as a giant garbage can to dump 

5 pollution, only to see it turn around and affect 

6 us. This has never made any sense, and we have 

7 to stop.

8 Some might say that addressing climate 

9 change will be too difficult or too expensive, 

10 but time and again, we have been able to reduce 

11 pollution faster and cheaper than we foresaw or 

12 that we expected.

13 In the Northeast, where I used to work, a 

14 group of states came together and created a 

15 program called the Regional Greenhouse Gas 

16 Initiative that has so far, since 2009, reduced 

17 CO2 emissions by about 30 percent, while 

18 generating jobs and while being a lot cheaper 

19 than expected.

20 In my very own state now, in North 

21 Carolina, we also have a very strong example. In 

22 2002, North Carolina enacted the Clean 

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1 Smokestacks Act, with the intention of reducing 

2 sulfur dioxides and nitrogen oxides by 70 percent 

3 in about 10 to 12 years. As of right now, that 

4 has been reduced by 90 percent, and the benefits 

5 are an order of magnitude greater than the cost.

6 Having worked as an environmental 

7 regulator and with numerous agencies, I commend 

8 EPA's approach to giving states lots of 

9 flexibility and a good amount of time to both 

10 plan and get to where they need to get. We also 

11 believe that EPA's approach of encouraging states 

12 to work together will address cost issues -- or 

13 help improve any cost issues and address any 

14 reliability concerns that they might have.

15 Finally, we think that renewable energy 

16 and energy efficiency are not only the key to 

17 reducing carbon pollution and fossil fuel 

18 addiction. They also drive jobs in all of these

19 states, and they reduce energy bills. And we 

20 think these resources can contribute even more to 

21 the Clean Power Plan. 

22 So we need real action, we need it now, 

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1 and we want EPA to move forward.

2 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Mr. Martinez.

3 Mr. Stamper.

4 MR. STAMPER: Yes, ma'am. Thank you so 

5 much, and good morning, everybody. My name is 

6 Robert Stamper, S-t-a-m-p-e-r. I represent no 

7 organization. I suppose you could say I am here 

8 representing my son Kirk, K-i-r-k, and I have 

9 come to speak specifically about what I note is 

10 the last point in the list of request for 

11 comment, the one pertaining to environmental 

12 justice from page 34950 in the Federal Register.

13 I am not a scientist. My wife actually 

14 is. She is a researcher in cancer prevention and 

15 also in diabetes. I work in real estate 

16 investment.

17 Both of us are very grateful for the work 

18 done by the EPA. It helps us to find properties, 

19 both to live in or to invest in or to recommend 

20 to others, which are not located in areas which 

21 are being affected negatively by immediate 

22 proximity to pollution sources. We are able to 

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1 find through the EPA's data that they make 

2 available, places to live in the state where 

3 people don't have to worry about the air that 

4 they are breathing or what is being produced by 

5 local industries, and so thank you so much for 

6 the role that the EPA plays in making that 

7 information available.

8 In speaking with people about pollution 

9 and its dangers, we have noted that the people 

10 who take those questions most seriously are those 

11 who personally have been affected by a serious 

12 illness or an early death. Those people are 

13 always very, very concerned about the information 

14 that we found about pollution sources in their 

15 area and always want to know what the pollution 

16 is, the effects of it, how prevalent it is, how 

17 closely they can live to the source and still be 

18 safe, because they have actually lost someone for 

19 a cause they can't pinpoint.

20 In terms of environmental justice, 

21 thinking about the presentations that have been 

22 made so far, we have heard a lot of horrifying 

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1 stories, or at least I have -- they were 

2 horrifying to me -- about millions of jobs lost, 

3 industries crushed, school systems collapsing, 

4 horrible futures. Who knows what to believe?

5 I think as a father, as somebody who 

6 cares very deeply about living in a clean place, 

7 about preserving this world for my son, for our 

8 children. I hope that in the name of 

9 environmental justice, we will err on the side of 

10 caution and on the side of doing whatever we 

11 believe based on the best available evidence is 

12 likeliest to least to the best result for the 

13 maximum number of people.

14 And to me, it's very clear that the Clean 

15 Power Plan that has been proposed by the 

16 government is a very positive step in that 

17 direction. It may have environmental costs, but 

18 then again, those costs are costs that I am 

19 willing to bear, willing to discuss with people 

20 of good faith and conscience in order to protect 

21 our planet and my family.

22 And so thank you so much for giving us 

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1 this opportunity. I'm very grateful for it. 

2 Thank you.

3 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you both, 

4 gentlemen.

5 At this time, can we have Claudia Hanes 

6 and Ashten Bailey. Claudia Hanes and Ashten 

7 Bailey.

8 [Pause.]

9 MS. TONEY: Good morning, ladies. We 

10 will begin with Ms. Hanes.

11 MS. HANES: My name is Claudia Hanes, 

12 C-l-a-u-d-i-a, H-a-n-e-s. I am a Kentuckian. I 

13 am also a retired teacher of middle school 

14 students for 31 years, an atheist, and the Social 

15 Justice Action Committee Chair of my local 

16 Unitarian Universalist Church.

17 I dream of a just, healthy, economically 

18 stable community, where the uniqueness of Planet 

19 Earth is celebrated and protected, and for that 

20 reason, I appreciate so much that we in this 

21 country have an agency that is solely dedicated 

22 to protecting Planet Earth.

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1 I believe human rights include air that 

2 is breathable, land that supports life, and water 

3 that is not toxic. Earth is a fragile place, and 

4 I know your agency has been tasked with a 

5 daunting mission of protecting her.

6 I am convinced that we stand at a 

7 critical point in time and must accept, as a 

8 society and a world community, our responsibility 

9 to take actions that address global climate 

10 challenges that are threatening life on Earth as 

11 we have always known it.

12 As an atheist, I place no hope in other 

13 people's deities to magically fix the damage that 

14 humanity is doing to Earth. We are all we have. 

15 We are all Earth has to protect and save her. We 

16 are it.

17 I would like to quote a famous author, 

18 Kurt Vonnegut. This is called "Requiem." The 

19 crucified Planet Earth, should it find a voice

20 and sense of irony, might now well say of our 

21 abuse of it, "Forgive them, Father. They know 

22 not what they do." The irony would be we do know 

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1 what we're doing. When the last living thing has 

2 died on account of us, how fitting it would be if 

3 Earth could say in a voice floating up from the 

4 Grand Canyon, "It is done." People did not like 

5 it here.

6 EPA leaders, your clean power rule must 

7 be strengthened. As currently written, they are 

8 inadequate. The clean power plant rules must 

9 include just economic transition for coal workers 

10 and communities. The targets for reducing carbon 

11 emissions by 2030 are too low and don't reduce 

12 climate change risk enough. You underestimate 

13 energy efficiency potential. You dangerously 

14 underestimate climate and health consequences of 

15 switching from coal to gas, natural gas, and your 

16 clean power rule must be federally enforceable 

17 with consequential, real penalties for 

18 noncompliance.

19 I give as an example our Kentucky 

20 legislators who have recently passed House Bill 

21 388 in which they don't intend to comply with any 

22 of it. They are not speaking for Kentuckians, 

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1 but they are absolutely speaking for fossil fuel 

2 industries. Put some teeth in the 

3 accountability.

4 And I have another quick quote from Kurt 

5 again: There is no reason good can't triumph 

6 over evil. If only the angels would get 

7 organized along the lines of the Mafia.

8 Finally, the rule doesn't effectively 

9 protect the health of communities that are most 

10 affected by the consequences of pollution. Year 

11 after year after year, I attend the I Love 

12 Mountains Action in Frankfurt, Kentucky, and 

13 people from eastern Kentucky come. They talk 

14 about how their drinking water is ruined, and 

15 their mountaintops are gone, and their kids are 

16 sick, and they have no way to fight back. You 

17 are their champions. Please listen to them.

18 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

19 Ms. Bailey.

20 MS. BAILEY: Hi. Good morning. My name 

21 is Ashten Bailey, and I am Staff Attorney at 

22 Greenlaw. That is A-s-h-t-e-n, B-a-i-l-e-y. I 

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1 focus on air and energy law here in Georgia. I 

2 am here today to voice support for EPA's decision 

3 to address carbon pollution from existing power 

4 plants.

5 However, before I get to that, I would 

6 like to start off by saying that I am very proud 

7 to be an American, and I choose to live in the 

8 Southeast because I love the land and the people 

9 here. But after hearing much of the commentary 

10 surrounding this rule, I am wondering if a lot of 

11 us haven't forgotten our history.

12 Part of what I love about this country is 

13 our innovative thinking, and it is helpful to put 

14 the Clean Power Plan proposal into our historical 

15 context.

16 In 1960, no human had even been in outer 

17 space, and a mere 9 years later, the U.S. had 

18 landed an astronaut on the Moon. To put that 

19 another way, Neil Armstrong landed on the Moon 

20 and returned safely in 1969, even though 10 years 

21 earlier, it was impossible. We didn't even have 

22 the technology to be able to do that.

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1 In contrast to our mission to the Moon, 

2 we have no choice but to address carbon 

3 pollution. Climate destruction challenges our 

4 way of life and our very existence on this 

5 planet. Our land is disappearing, our food is 

6 getting more expensive, and our national security 

7 and economic viability as a country are very much 

8 at risk if we do not move now to address climate 

9 disruption.

10 With this backdrop, it is hard to 

11 understand why some are so opposed to this rule, 

12 especially when we have the technology now to 

13 begin to addressing carbon pollution in a 

14 cost-effective manner.

15 I am very glad the EPA has proposed to 

16 regulate carbon pollution from existing power 

17 plants, which are one of the most significant 

18 emitters of carbon pollution, and I am going to 

19 spend the rest of my time talking about Georgia 

20 under the proposed rule.

21 While overall, the rule could be 

22 strengthened to increase carbon reductions in 

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1 other states and can be strengthened in the 

2 future, EPA's 44.4 percent reduction for Georgia 

3 is fair, and it is achievable. The calculation 

4 for Georgia is fair for a number of reasons, 

5 including location of pollution sources and cost 

6 effectiveness of addressing carbon pollution in 

7 Georgia.

8 We have the largest single source of 

9 greenhouse gas emissions in the U.S. sitting in 

10 our back yard, Plant Scherer. Everyone who 

11 receives power or profit from this plant has a 

12 responsibility to address the pollution that also 

13 comes from it, and we in Georgia can do that by 

14 moving away from coal-fired power and upping our 

15 investments in renewables and energy efficiency.

16 The cost effectiveness of renewable and 

17 energy efficiency resources is another reason 

18 that this rule is fair to Georgia. Georgia's 

19 largest utility has already said that wind 

20 resources from the Midwest put downward pressure 

21 on rates. They have also said that solar 

22 resources do not put upward pressure on rates. 

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1 It is widely accepted that it is generally 

2 cheaper to create a "negawatt" than a megawatt. 

3 All of these resources provide more rate 

4 stability than resources that require wanting to 

5 purchase fuels, like coal- and natural gas-fired 

6 units.

7 So what does this mean in plain English? 

8 That if we move toward renewables and energy 

9 efficiency, we will have a clean, safe, and 

10 affordable energy here in Georgia.

11 Turning to my other point, a 44.4 percent 

12 reduction in carbon pollution from Georgia is 

13 also technologically feasible. With respect to 

14 energy efficiency, the American Council for an 

15 Energy Efficient Economy found that Georgia could 

16 save 24 percent of its generation, or 

17 approximately 34 million megawatt-hours just 

18 through energy efficiency.

19 The National Renewable Energy Laboratory 

20 estimated technical potential for renewables in 

21 Georgia to be over 5,000 terawatt-hours, and that 

22 number does not include Midwest wind or 

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1 technological advances, like higher hub height 

2 wind.

3 Again, what does this mean in plain 

4 English? That we still have a lot of room for 

5 energy efficiency and renewables in Georgia, and 

6 that even if Plant Vogtle didn't expand, we could 

7 still meet the 834 pounds per megawatt-hour that 

8 EPA has proposed for Georgia.

9 To wrap up, we can achieve substantial 

10 reductions in carbon pollution in a 

11 cost-effective manner, both in Georgia and across 

12 the United States. We can do this with the 

13 technology we have now, and we can use our 

14 American innovation to make more reductions in 

15 the future. We need to take this step now, so 

16 that future generations will have a brighter 

17 future and the opportunity to take their own 

18 leaps.

19 Thank you very much.

20 MS. TONEY: Thank you both, ladies.

21 We will now hear from Darel Preble and 

22 Anne Mellinger-Birdsong.

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1 Sir, did I pronounce your last name 

2 correctly?

3 MR. PREBLE: Close enough for government 

4 work.

5 [Laughter.]

6 MS. TONEY: Is it "Preble"?

7 MR. PREBLE: "Preble" is correct.

8 MS. TONEY: Preble, okay.

9 And, Ms. Birdsong?

10 All right. We will begin with Mr. 

11 Preble.

12 MR. PREBLE: I worked in the --

13 MS. TONEY: You can give us the spelling 

14 of your name.

15 MR. PREBLE: -- Strategic Planning Group 

16 at Southern Company when I left there in 1997.

17 MR. HUTSON: Spell your name, please.

18 MR. PREBLE: I'm sorry?

19 MR. HUTSON: Spell your name.

20 MS. TONEY: Spell your name.

21 MR. PREBLE: The first name or the last 

22 name? D-a-r-e-l, P-r-e-b-l-e. I am with the 

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1 Space Solar Power Institute, a non-profit.

2 In the last 20 years, the world has spent 

3 $2 trillion building renewable power plants. We 

4 have accelerated the growth of CO2 during that 

5 time. CO2 is growing at five times the rate that 

6 it was when we first started measuring it in the 

7 late '50s.

8 The bottom line is the power companies 

9 simply don't have the technical generation 

10 necessary to fully address our massive CO2, 

11 economic, and environmental problems. The only 

12 generation technology adequate to address the 

13 massive electrical generation technology we need, 

14 without adversely affecting our economy and our 

15 environment is space solar power.

16 Japan and China are aggressively pursuing 

17 this. I will be visiting China in September. 

18 The Chair of our workshop in Microwave Power 

19 Transmission will be teaching this in Chins this 

20 fall. It is a simple choice. We can pursue this 

21 in the United States or buy it from Japan and 

22 China.

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1 We are prepared within the university 

2 systems to do this. It is not simple. It is not 

3 cheap. It is not easy, but building Hoover Dam 

4 was also not simple, not cheap, and not easy. We 

5 can do this. The technology exists. It is all 

6 about us. We have thousands of satellites 

7 already operating in space. We understand that 

8 environment. 

9 It is better to have a direct tap to the 

10 sun than putting nuclear processes a hundred 

11 miles from Atlanta.

12 The typical average income of the median 

13 American has dropped 36 percent in the last 10 

14 years. The price of electricity to the average 

15 American has gone up 42 percent. The problems 

16 that we face are simply not able to be addressed 

17 directly by forcing the utilities to do this. 

18 The reason is they are not charged to build 

19 high-risk ventures like this. Even NASA is not 

20 chartered to do this. They are a public company.

21 What we need to do, just as we chartered 

22 COMSAT Corporation in 1962 to build a 

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1 communications satellite industry, which has been 

2 very successful, we must charter a power 

3 satellite company. I call it "sunset 

4 corporation." We have draft legislation 

5 available to do this.

6 This is really the only viable pathway. 

7 There's no venture capitalists going to fund this 

8 because it simply doesn't fit the venture capital 

9 model of invest $10 million and get twice that 

10 out a few years later. They get glazed over when 

11 you talk about this, as you can imagine.

12 This is exactly what Japan has done. 

13 This is a public private venture, and this is 

14 what we need to be doing.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

17 Ms. Birdsong.

18 DR. MELLINGER-BIRDSONG: Hi. A-n-n-e, 

19 M-e-l-l-i-n-g-e-r, hyphen, B-i-r-d-s-o-n-g. 

20 Hello, and thank you for letting me speak 

21 today. My name is Anne Mellinger-Birdsong. I am 

22 a pediatrician, an epidemiologist, and a parent. 

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1 I am here today to speak in favor of the proposed 

2 rule for carbon pollution.

3 The American Academy of Pediatrics' 

4 statement about the proposed rule states that 

5 while we often think of climate change in terms 

6 of environmental effects, there are also 

7 wide-reaching health impacts that are especially 

8 damaging to vulnerable populations like children. 

9 These health impacts include the broad effect of 

10 weather disasters, increases in rain shifts and 

11 climate-sensitive infections, increases in 

12 allergic and asthmatic diseases, food and water 

13 insecurity, and increased heat-related deaths.

14 Also, as climate change accelerates, 

15 children will continue to suffer 

16 disproportionately. In fact, according to the 

17 WHO, more than 80 percent of the current health 

18 burden due to the changing climate occurs in 

19 children younger than 5 years old. Children are 

20 not just little adults. They breathe faster. 

21 They spend more time outside, and they have 

22 proportionately greater skin surface exposed to 

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1 the environment, making them especially 

2 vulnerable to all environmental exposures.

3 The AAP policy statement on climate 

4 change notes that because of their physical, 

5 physiologic, and cognitive immaturity, children 

6 are often most vulnerable to adverse health 

7 effects from environmental hazards. Anticipated 

8 direct health consequences of climate change 

9 include injury and death from extreme weather 

10 events and natural disasters, increase in 

11 infectious diseases, increases in air 

12 pollution-related illness, and more heat-related 

13 illness. Within all of these categories, 

14 children have increased vulnerability compared 

15 with other groups.

16 Children are dependent on their parents 

17 or adult caregivers for food, shelter, and 

18 physical safety. They cannot choose where they 

19 live, where they go to school, or the quality of 

20 the air they breathe. They are dependent on 

21 adult decision-makers to set policies which 

22 provide the best living conditions for health, 

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1 growth, and learning.

2 Climate change is anticipated to cause 

3 more draughts, more floods, and more extreme 

4 weather events. During these events, children 

5 are more vulnerable because they are dependent on 

6 adults for aiding and protecting them, telling 

7 them what to do, where to go, how to reach safety 

8 or shelter, or to escape. 

9 Climate change is anticipated to cause an 

10 increase in air pollution with increased 

11 temperatures allowing formation of more ozone and 

12 particulate air pollution. Ozone causes asthma 

13 attacks, respiratory symptoms, hospitalizations, 

14 school absences, decreased lunch function, and 

15 also decreased lung growth and through the 

16 teenage years. Children are more vulnerable to 

17 air pollution because they breathe more air per 

18 body mass than adults. They spend more time 

19 playing outdoors, and because their lungs are 

20 growing and developing. Children's lungs develop 

21 all the way through the teenage years.

22 Reducing carbon pollution will also 

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1 reduce other pollutants and reduce the burden of 

2 air pollution now and into the future, preventing 

3 up to 4,100 premature deaths and 100,000 asthma 

4 attacks in 2020.

5 Climate change is anticipated to expand 

6 the range of vectors, which transmit disease to 

7 humans, such as mosquitoes, ticks, and rodents. 

8 Examples of vector-borne diseases we have in the 

9 United States which could be affected by this 

10 include Lyme disease, West Nile, Rocky Mountain 

11 Spotted Fever, and Hantavirus. All of these 

12 could increase as the growing season becomes 

13 longer and the range of the vectors expands.

14 Examples of other diseases which could be 

15 imported to the U.S. as their vector base expands 

16 includes malaria, dengue fever, and yellow fever. 

17 Again, children are more vulnerable to these 

18 diseases because they spend more time outdoors 

19 and are less likely to use protective measures.

20 It is possible for humans to adapt to 

21 some of the effects of climate change, for 

22 example, by improving weather forecasting, 

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1 disaster planning, and developing new vaccines 

2 and medicines. However, it is far better to try 

3 to do all that we can now to prevent the buildup 

4 of greenhouse gases and reduce the impacts of 

5 climate change.

6 Therefore, I support the new EPA carbon 

7 standards. They are crucial for our health and 

8 well-being.

9 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you both.

10 Ladies and gentlemen, at this time, we 

11 are going to take a very, very quick 5-minute 

12 break to give everybody an opportunity to stand 

13 up, stretch.

14 Give yourselves a round of applause 

15 because we haven't had a chance to officially do 

16 that, so thank you.

17 [Applause.]

18 MS. TONEY: It is approximately 10:50. 

19 We will start promptly at 10:55, and our next two 

20 speakers, if they will make their way forward 

21 that time, is Roby Greenwald and Benton 

22 Wislinski. I will see you back at 10:55.

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1 [Recess taken from 10 to 10:55 a.m.]

2 MS. TONEY: Let's get started. We have 

3 been listening intently to all of the comments 

4 that have been made. You have been so wonderful 

5 and so patient.

6 This next session or next part of this 

7 session, it will be ending and wrapping up the 

8 morning session.

9 If you have signed up to speak, please 

10 make sure that the registration desk knows that, 

11 so that they can make sure they are bringing us 

12 the cards. I do not have the list of speakers up 

13 here with me, but they are coming to us as they 

14 are put in order.

15 Again, just a reminder that we are -- and 

16 we have done an amazing job. I really appreciate

17 everyone being so respectful of all of our 

18 speakers and listening intently.

19 We do have a very strict 5-minute time 

20 limit. At the point in time that that 5 minutes 

21 is up, first, you will see the green flash. The 

22 green flash will let you know that you have 1 

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1 minute remaining. The yellow light is the 1 

2 minute. Once the yellow light begins flashing, 

3 then the red light will come on. At the buzzer, 

4 that means a hard stop. We do that to try to 

5 make sure that we hear from each and every person 

6 that we have on our list today, so thank you so 

7 much.

8 At this time, we are going to hear from 

9 Roby Greenwald. Did I pronounce that correctly?

10 MR. GREENWALD: That is correct, yes.

11 MS. TONEY: Okay. Then after Mr. 

12 Greenwald, Mr. Wislinski. If you would, please 

13 spell your names for the transcribers.

14 Mr. Greenwald.

15 MR. GREENWALD: Thank you. My name is 

16 Roby Greenwald. That is R-o-b-y, 

17 G-r-e-e-n-w-a-l-d.

18 I am on the faculty of the Rollins School 

19 of Public Health, Emory University, here in 

20 Atlanta, and I am a scientist that studies the 

21 influence of air pollution exposure on human 

22 health.

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1 I did not come here today, though, to 

2 speak as a scientist. I came here as a concerned 

3 citizen and as a parent.

4 I have a child who was born last year. I 

5 have another child who will be born later on this 

6 year. So, in other words, my children are going 

7 to be the age that I am now in middle part of the 

8 2050s, and they are going to be in their 70s in 

9 the 2080s. My hope for future grandchildren will 

10 be entering the prime of their life at the end of 

11 this century and will be entering their senior 

12 years in the beginning of the next century. That 

13 is the time scale that I am thinking about this 

14 issue on.

15 The reason I am so concerned about this 

16 is because the world that my children are going 

17 to inherit in the middle to latter part of this 

18 century is going to look significantly different 

19 from the world that we live in now if we take no 

20 further action on this issue.

21 For example, here in Atlanta, under the 

22 current climate regime that we are used to and we 

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1 have been experiencing for the last several 

2 decades, it is very unusual for us to have more 

3 than 1 day in a summer where the temperature is 

4 over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. In a typical series 

5 of summers, we might have 2 or 3 days like that 

6 every couple of years.

7 By the current projections under the 

8 business-as-usual climate scenario, by the latter 

9 part of this century, we are going to have 30 or 

10 more days in the summer where the maximum 

11 temperature is over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. This 

12 is something that is already being experienced in 

13 the desert Southwest; however, there is one 

14 notable distinction between us and the desert 

15 Southwest, and that is that we have relative 

16 humidities that are 60 to 70 percent in the 

17 summertime compared to very low, zero to 10 

18 percent, in the desert Southwest.

19 The combination of 60 percent humidity 

20 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit in terms of heat index 

21 is approximately equal to 135 degrees and 10 

22 percent relative humidity. Nobody is used to 

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1 that. That is borderline unlivable conditions, 

2 and we will have 30 days like that in the typical 

3 summertime by the end of this century if we do 

4 nothing at all.

5 So I am very concerned about that for my 

6 children and my future grandchildren. I am also 

7 concerned about many of the other health effects 

8 that would be related to this, besides simply 

9 heat. For example, we're going to have changes 

10 in food supply security. It is virtually 

11 unpredictable right now with a projected 3 to 4 

12 degrees Celsius change in global temperature what 

13 the influence would be on the food supply, but 

14 it's not good, and that carries all kinds of 

15 geopolitical ramifications, as well, when you 

16 start having reduced food security.

17 In addition, there will be changes in the 

18 spread of vector-borne diseases. Many diseases 

19 are limited in range by maximum summertime 

20 temperature; for example, Lyme disease is 

21 restricted, dengue fever, malaria, West Nile 

22 virus. All of these diseases are going to expand 

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1 in range in two areas in the United States where 

2 they have not previously been experienced, and 

3 that is going to have pronounced public health 

4 implications.

5 In addition to that, there's going to be 

6 issues related to air quality. For example, 

7 right now, one of the issues that I've studied 

8 professionally is looking at exposure to ozone 

9 and particulate matter related to transportation 

10 sources on human health. The concentrations of 

11 ozone in the future, if the emissions are exactly 

12 the same, are going to increase because of 

13 weather patterns related to higher temperatures 

14 and more stagnant air masses over urban areas, 

15 and that is going to reduce air quality, and it 

16 is going to result in public health issues 

17 related to pediatric respiratory health and a 

18 couple of other major diseases.

19 For these reasons, I am really concerned 

20 about what the global environment is going to 

21 look like mid and later century. This is a very 

22 significant issue that requires global actions, 

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1 and the United States has to provide some 

2 pronounced leadership on this in order to have 

3 any kind of global action take place.

4 So that is why I thoroughly support his 

5 rule. It is, frankly, inadequate, but it is the 

6 best tool we have in our arsenal at this time to 

7 address this issue. Without any action on this, 

8 we are not going to see any subsequent action 

9 from other world powers, as well, such as China 

10 is currently discussing internally what their 

11 future climate projections are going to be, what 

12 their future targets on CO2 emissions are going to 

13 be. They are not going to act unilaterally if we 

14 provide no leadership at all on this issue, which 

15 is why I think it's very important for the EPA to 

16 take a leadership role on this.

17 That's all I have to say. Thanks.

18 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

19 Mr. Wislinski.

20 MR. WISLINSKI: Sure. Thank you for 

21 having me. My name is Benton Wislinski. That is 

22 B-e-n-t-o-n; Wislinski, W-i-s-l-i-n-s-k-i. I 

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1 serve as the Director of Conservation Advocacy 

2 for the South Carolina Wildlife Federation, and I 

3 myself am an avid hunter and fisher.

4 The South Carolina Wildlife Federation 

5 was founded in 1931 by a handful of sportsmen who 

6 recruited other outdoor enthusiasts. We are the 

7 oldest South Carolina-based conservation 

8 organization, and our mission is to advocate for 

9 wildlife habitat and the environment, to educate 

10 citizens in the conservation ethic, and to 

11 support outdoor traditions.

12 I am here today to speak about the 

13 effects of climate change on our wildlife natural 

14 resources and habitats. I was born and raised in 

15 South Carolina, and as I said, I do a lot of 

16 hunting and fishing. As an outdoor enthusiast 

17 and sportsman, I have been fortunate to enjoy the 

18 abundant wildlife and fishery resources in our 

19 state. The evidence is overwhelming.

20 In South Carolina, as is true for most 

21 coastal states, adverse impacts will be 

22 particularly devastating to coastal resources, 

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1 and we worry not only for the impact on fish and 

2 wildlife along the coast but also of what's to 

3 come in the future, unless we act now.

4 As someone with ties to our precious 

5 coast, I can say that we have no more time to 

6 waste. The South Carolina Department of Natural 

7 Resources recently issued a climate change 

8 report, and it lists the following impacts: 

9 detrimental change in habitat, detrimental change 

10 in abundance and distribution of species, 

11 detrimental change in biodiversity and ecosystem 

12 services, detrimental change to the traditional 

13 uses of natural resources, detrimental change in 

14 the abundance and quality of water, and 

15 detrimental change in sea level.

16 These effects are brought about by rising 

17 sea levels, warming temperatures, and changes in 

18 precipitation patterns, especially increased 

19 drought, and act synergistically to compound the 

20 severity of impacts. For example, less 

21 drought-induced river and stream flow allows 

22 greater saltwater intrusion and sea-level rises.

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1 Affected coastal resources support large 

2 tourism, recreational, and commercial fishing, 

3 waterfowl hunting, and recreational activities, 

4 including ecotourism. South Carolina's beaches 

5 alone generate about $3.5 billion annually and 

6 support 81,000 jobs. Fishing, hunting, and 

7 wildlife viewing contribute almost $2.2 billion 

8 annually to our economy and support nearly 59,000 

9 jobs.

10 As sea-level rises, critical habitat 

11 types that contribute to ecosystem services and 

12 economics and general public enjoyment of the 

13 coast will be threatened. These include salt 

14 marshes, mud flats, beach hammocks, maritime 

15 forests, and tidal brackish and freshwater 

16 systems. 

17 These habitats provide nurseries for 

18 commercial and recreational-sought fisheries and 

19 critical nesting, feeding, and wintering habitat 

20 for shorebirds, wading birds, marsh-dependent 

21 birds, sea turtles, and many other wildlife 

22 species too numerous to list.

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1 South Carolina also supports 

2 approximately 70,000 acres of managed wetland 

3 impoundments, many of which are remnants of 

4 historic rice fields. These serve as wintering 

5 habitat for migratory waterfowl, wading birds, 

6 and a host of other wildlife.

7 Sea-level rise compounded by drops in 

8 river flow due to increased droughts will make it 

9 difficult and probably impossible in the long 

10 term to continue management of these areas, 

11 particularly for important brackish and 

12 freshwater impoundments.

13 Private and government impoundment 

14 managers in many basins are already experiencing 

15 significant problems in controlling dike topping 

16 and saltwater intrusion. Important coastal 

17 habitat provided by maritime forest associations 

18 in our barrier islands will disappear, as will 

19 coastal hammocks. Hammocks are small, unique 

20 coastal islands associated with large barrier 

21 islands.

22 These ecosystems provide valuable resting 

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1 and feeding stations for migratory shore birds 

2 and natural refuges for coastal mammals, 

3 including deer otter, mink, and others that 

4 provide critical migratory bird habitus.

5 Monogamous fish runs, already greatly 

6 isolated from historic spawning grounds by dams, 

7 will be impacted as saltwater moves further up 

8 the river systems of the state, further reducing 

9 needed freshwater spawning habitats. Lots of 

10 monogamous fish, young-of-year, outwelling into 

11 the ocean will reduce food availability in the 

12 marine system and affect marine fish stocks.

13 The severity of climate-related impacts 

14 is also compounded through past, present, and 

15 future cumulative impacts on the coastal 

16 landscape, making it more difficult for systems 

17 to adapt to climate changes. These will lead to 

18 hardened shorelines, precluding migration of 

19 coastal marshes, dams preventing seaward sediment 

20 migration, and shortstopping monogamous fish 

21 runs. At best, adaptation of species and 

22 habitats to climate change is unlikely to occur 

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1 without significant losses for both.

2 For these reasons, it is imperative that 

3 we invest in significant mitigation strategies by 

4 reducing carbon emissions; hence, we strongly 

5 support the proposed EPA 111(d) rule.

6 Thank you.

7 MS. TONEY: Thank you, gentlemen.

8 Our next speakers are Brandon Presley and 

9 Jim Jess.

10 [Pause.]

11 MS. TONEY: We will begin with Mr. 

12 Presley in just a moment.

13 Mr. Presley.

14 MR. PRESLEY: Thank you very much. 

15 Administrator Toney, I will tell the group, you 

16 and I knew each other in a former life when we 

17 both served as mayors together in Mississippi, 

18 and so it's good to be here, and thank you for 

19 giving us this opportunity.

20 I am here today to offer comments not on 

21 behalf of the entire Mississippi Public Service 

22 Commission. I don't have the luxury to speak for 

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1 my colleagues but to speak for myself and my role 

2 as Commissioner for the Northern District of 

3 Mississippi.

4 These rules, as proposed, have a 

5 detrimental effect to Mississippians as they 

6 stand today, as the rules stand today, based on 

7 several investments that our state has made to 

8 try to, one, comply with existing rules of the 

9 Environmental Protection Agency and also to bring 

10 about diversity to our electric mix and electric 

11 generation mix in Mississippi.

12 As of today, the State of Mississippi has 

13 invested in just two projects alone, well over 

14 $850 million in increased projects and generation 

15 for the folks in our state. One is to comply 

16 with EPA regulations at Plant Daniel for 

17 Mississippi Power. The Public Service Commission 

18 approved $600 million in cost to clean up the 

19 environmental controls on Plant Daniel that serve 

20 the Gulf Coast region of our state, which caused 

21 a rate increase for those folks, and based on the 

22 rules as they are presented today, that $600 

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1 million isn't worth a penny. That $600 million 

2 is lost. That doesn't count into the fact that 

3 that Plant Daniel and the upgrades that were done 

4 there have a 25-year life expectancy that can 

5 provide good electricity to the people of South 

6 Mississippi who have been faced not only with 

7 Hurricane Katrina but with the BP oil spill and 

8 with an economy that is struggling to get up and 

9 running in our state. That $600 million, it's 

10 lost because these rules use a 2012 benchmark, so 

11 that is the first problem and error that just 

12 jumps out with this.

13 Secondly is Mississippi was proud -- and 

14 I was proud to vote -- to uprate Grand Gulf 

15 Nuclear Station in Port Gibson to be the largest 

16 standalone nuclear power plant in the United 

17 States of America. We were able to take that 

18 and, to use a layman's term, do a tune-up at

19 Grand Gulf and get 178 more megawatts of 

20 electricity out of that plant. That is a $250 

21 million cost to the people of Mississippi --

22 Entergy Mississippi -- and that is not counted 

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1 for and doesn't mean anything when these rules go 

2 into place. It is not counted. We don't get 

3 credit for that, although that provides very 

4 inexpensive electricity to the people of our 

5 state, and it's an investment that's been made.

6 We all want clean air. We all want clean 

7 water. We wall want a safe environment. There 

8 is nobody out here, no matter what your opinion 

9 of this issue, that don't want that, but my 

10 concerns are economical. And while we talk about 

11 green, one of the greens that worries me is this 

12 green, and that is the dollar bills that are 

13 going to be paid by folks in our state for 

14 unfunded mandates.

15 There is no funding attached to this to 

16 help pay for it. It has to be picked up on the 

17 backs of the working people, small businesses, 

18 and industry in Mississippi who -- quite frankly, 

19 right now we have the highest unemployment in the 

20 United States of America, and these rules don't 

21 help that at all.

22 While I understand the need to want to 

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1 make sure that we do everything we can, again, to 

2 have clean air and clean water. We must be 

3 cognizant of the dollar bills and of the small 

4 business owners and mom-and-pops.

5 We are in the State of Georgia. I want 

6 to quote former Governor Zell Miller, who talked 

7 about the small business owner who stays open 

8 late and calls her customers by name, and the 

9 farmers that plant their own crops and bale their 

10 own hay, these are the people that are going to 

11 have to pay for these upgrades when there is no 

12 mechanism to help with that.

13 This rule is flawed. This rule is very 

14 flawed when it looks at states like Mississippi 

15 and doesn't take into account the investments 

16 that our people have already made and the life 

17 expectancy of plants that have already been 

18 environmentally controlled because the rules 

19 continue to shift, and so we have one set of 

20 rules. We spend $600 million to comply with 

21 that, and the rules change.

22 We simply cannot afford to keep going in 

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1 that direction and not knowing where these 

2 investments pay off. This rule is flawed.

3 I was in a meeting yesterday with FERC 

4 Commissioner Tony Clark, who said that much of 

5 this is based on the models in the New England 

6 states and California, the RGGI model and the 

7 California model, which produce the highest rates 

8 in the United States of America. The biggest 

9 reliability problem is on the electric grid. We 

10 don't need to export that throughout this 

11 country.

12 I would ask the EPA and ask all of you 

13 all to take these comments to heart and to 

14 remember the folks who are going to have to pay 

15 the bills for this. There is no Santa Claus. 

16 There is no Tooth Fairy. Nobody is going to drop 

17 the money out of the sky to pay for these 

18 upgrades. It is going to be the people that I 

19 represent and the people that you represent, 

20 quite frankly, as members of the federal 

21 government, so please remember that.

22 We have made good investments in 

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1 Mississippi, and we have tried to do what's 

2 right. We would ask for that to be recognized.

3 Thank you very much.

4 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

5 [Applause.]

6 MS. TONEY: Mr. Jess?

7 MR. JESS: Thank you. My name is Jim 

8 Jess. Last name is J-e --

9 MS. TONEY: Wait a minute. We want to 

10 make sure you get your full time. Give us just a 

11 moment.

12 MR. JESS: Oh, okay.

13 MS. TONEY: Okay, go ahead, Mr. Jess.

14 MR. JESS: My name is Jim Jess. The last 

15 name is spelled J-e-s-s. I am Vice Chairman of 

16 the Georgia Tea Party.

17 George Tea Party, Inc., is a 501(c)(4) 

18 non-profit organization based in Marietta, 

19 Georgia. Our mission statement is to impact 

20 public policy by teaching all who seek to learn 

21 the principles and spirit of individual liberty 

22 and constitutionally limited self-government.

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1 Since 2009, we have educated and 

2 organized citizens and met with local, state, and 

3 federal elected officials and candidates, 

4 informing them of our desire to restore our 

5 constitutional republic. We reach several 

6 thousand people through our e-mail list, and 

7 about 50 activists are engaged with our various 

8 task forces.

9 This past May, GeorgiaPundit.com referred 

10 to Georgia Tea Party as, quote, one of the 

11 stronger and more effective Tea Party groups in 

12 the state, and there are about a hundred.

13 Georgia Tea Party opposes this 

14 overreaching and extreme Clean Power Plan rule 

15 and strongly urges you to withdraw it. Not only 

16 will it impoverish millions of ratepayers, it is 

17 unconstitutional. The President cannot simply 

18 impose his own policies because he lacks the 

19 skill to convince Congress of a desired course of 

20 action. The three branches of our government 

21 were constructed for a reason.

22 The proposed rule is another example of 

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1 this administration's abuse of its power. In the 

2 Constitution, in Article II, Section 3, the 

3 President is charged with the responsibility to, 

4 quote, take care that the laws be faithfully 

5 executed, unquote. Article I, Section 1, of the 

6 Constitution says all legislative powers herein 

7 granted shall be vested in a congress of the 

8 United States, unquote. This new rule is 

9 excessively legislative. It is not an 

10 implementation of any law that has been passed by 

11 Congress. This rule violates the Separation of 

12 Powers Doctrine, which is the underlying purpose 

13 of the three branches of our Federal Government.

14 Our Founders recognized that a chief 

15 executive should not have the power to impose his 

16 own laws. In fact, they had experienced too much 

17 of that with King George. They specifically 

18 delegated the legislative power, which is the 

19 power to establish policy to Congress.

20 The President was given just 14 

21 responsibilities in the Constitution, and none of 

22 them includes domestic policy-making. The 

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1 President may recommend legislation, but he may 

2 not impose his own laws without the consent of 

3 Congress.

4 The Declaration of Independence says 

5 government must rule by consent of the governed. 

6 Our Constitution established a process to be 

7 followed when crafting new laws, and making laws 

8 is a responsibility of the legislative branch, 

9 not the executive branch. When the process is 

10 followed, the consent of the governed is honored, 

11 and liberty is secured. The executive branch may 

12 not impose its own rules just because it wants 

13 to.

14 Our Founders set up the three branches in 

15 a way that prevented any single branch from 

16 becoming so powerful that it could threaten the 

17 liberty of citizens. That is why they separated 

18 the legislative function from the executive 

19 function. If these functions are merged, so that 

20 executive and legislative powers are wielded by 

21 one agency or one person, liberty will not be 

22 secured. It will be violated.

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1 Your new rule violates American liberty 

2 in ominous and frightening ways. If a new agency 

3 can decree without the consent of Congress that 

4 the work and treasure of a private company, a 

5 public utility, or a cooperative enterprise can 

6 be wasted to achieve a clean air objective that 

7 has negligible impact on the quality of the air, 

8 then we have entered a new era of tyranny, 

9 because it will not be these companies that pay. 

10 It will be their ratepayers.

11 I would very much like to see our nation 

12 spared your destructive rules, but if you insist 

13 on writing them, you will help us recruit. As 

14 you tighten the noose around the necks of the 

15 American people, we will organize. We will elect 

16 men and women to federal office who will shrink 

17 your budgets, hollow out your agency, and return 

18 many of your agency's responsibilities to the 

19 states, where they belong as the 10th Amendment 

20 requires.

21 I urge you to withdraw this destructive 

22 rule. It is not worth any miniscule benefits it 

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1 might achieve. Furthermore, the technology you 

2 are trying to force on the power industry, carbon 

3 capture and storage, is not a proven technology. 

4 This rule is foolish and wasteful.

5 Listen to the American people and 

6 withdraw this rule. Thank you.

7 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

8 [Applause.]

9 MS. TONEY: We will now hear from Mr. 

10 Robert Kappelmann and Ms. Barbara Antonoplos. I 

11 hope I have pronounced that correctly. Robert 

12 Kappelmann, Barbara Antonoplos, if you will make 

13 your way to the front at this time.

14 MS. ANTONOPLOS: I am Barbara Antonoplos. 

15 May I switch my time slot with the person right 

16 after me? She has a commitment she needs to get 

17 to, an important commitment. Would that be okay?

18 MS. TONEY: So we will have Mr. Robert 

19 Kappelmann and Courtney Hanson.

20 If you will please make sure that you 

21 spell your name for the transcriber, and we will 

22 begin. I hope that I pronounced it correctly. 

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1 Is it "Kappelmann"?

2 MR. KAPPELMANN: Correct.

3 MS. TONEY: All right. You may begin. 

4 Thank you.

5 MR. KAPPELMANN: Yeah. Robert 

6 Kappelmann, K-a-p-p-e-l-m-a-n-n. 

7 My name is Robert Kappelmann. I am here 

8 representing the Florida Municipal Electric 

9 Association.

10 FMEA represents 34 community-oriented and 

11 -owned electric utilities serving 3 million 

12 Floridians. Our utilities are almost entirely 

13 dependent on fossil fuel generation, and it is 

14 critically important to our customers and our 

15 communities that we are able to continue to 

16 deliver reasonably priced and reliable electric 

17 power.

18 In the 1980s, to meet growing electric 

19 demand, the FMEA members built over 2,400 

20 megawatts of coal-fired generation. This was in 

21 response to the natural gas and fuel oil 

22 prohibitions in the Electric Power Industrial 

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1 Fuel Use Act of 1977. Many people are not aware 

2 of all the electric generation with coal came in 

3 the State of Florida.

4 FMEA members invested billions of dollars 

5 on new coal-fired generation, because we were 

6 given no other alternative for baseload 

7 generation. Many of our utilities carry 

8 considerable debt on these coal-fired units. In 

9 addition, our utilities recently spent $2 billion 

10 for new air pollution controls to meet the 

11 interstate rule and the utility max rules.

12 Forcing these utilities out of service 

13 prematurely, our big concern, will leave our 

14 ratepayers with hundreds of millions of dollars 

15 in stranded costs. These costs do not appear to 

16 be taken into consideration in EPA's economic 

17 analysis.

18 The proposed ESPS, emissions reduction 

19 goals, depend on four building blocks that were 

20 developed considering national and regional 

21 assumptions and costs that may not translate to a 

22 state or its utilities. The 6 percent efficiency 

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1 improvement building block is unrealistic since 

2 Florida's relatively new coal-fired generating 

3 fleet already employs nearly all of the 

4 cost-effective heat rate improvements that are 

5 available.

6 Florida's ESPS building block two depends 

7 primarily on frontloading and shifting 90 percent 

8 of our coal-fired generation to gas-fired 

9 generation. This shift will result in the 

10 premature closing of many of our coal-fired 

11 generations. We find it ironic that the Federal 

12 Government, which directed that our utilities 

13 build coal-fired generation, is now proposing a 

14 regulation that will assure their premature 

15 shutdown.

16 EPA's building blocks three and four 

17 assume about 10 percent of Florida's generation 

18 will come from renewable energy by 2030, as well 

19 as a 10 percent reduction in electric demand. 

20 However, Florida's projected growth rate and lack 

21 of cost-effective renewable energy resources make 

22 the 10 percent assumption unrealistic.

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1 ESPS tends to punish early CO2 emission 

2 reductions by including them in the calculation 

3 of the state emission-limiting goals. EPA needs 

4 to allow the states to adjust emission reduction 

5 goals to reflect early actions made by the states 

6 prior to the effective baseline date of 2012.

7 We have numerous additional concerns 

8 about EPA expanding the traditional boundaries 

9 for BSER beyond not only the electric-generating 

10 unit but also going to generating sources and 

11 segments of the economy, not specifically 

12 regulated by the Clean Air Act.

13 Our preliminary analysis indicates EPA 

14 has overestimated greatly the monetized benefits 

15 for this rule and also underestimated the cost to 

16 the public. EPA also failed to fully incorporate 

17 the latest UN study in the IPCC AR findings, 

18 which show reduced equilibrium climate 

19 sensitivity and a great moderation in the 

20 prediction of severe weather from the AR4 report. 

21 People here are concerned about the science, and 

22 we feel that EPA needs to use that latest science 

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1 report, especially when the climate sensitivity 

2 has such a tremendous impact on the cost 

3 predictions for climate change.

4 Thank you for this opportunity to address 

5 you.

6 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

7 Ms. Hanson.

8 MS. HANSON: Hi. My name is Courtney 

9 Hanson, C-o-u-r-t-n-e-y, H-a-n-s-o-n. I am 

10 Director of Organizing for Georgia Women's Action 

11 for New Directions, and for the past 4 years, I 

12 have had the honor of working with the Shell 

13 Bluff community in East Georgia. They live in 

14 the shadow of a nuclear power plant Vogtle, which 

15 has its two operating nuclear reactors and is 

16 hope to the construction site of the first new 

17 nuclear reactors in the U.S. in about three 

18 decades.

19 In the fact of high poverty, cancer rates 

20 that are much higher than the national average, 

21 and intimidation by the nuclear industry, this 

22 community has continuously raised their voices 

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1 for a real clean energy economy, for safer jobs, 

2 and for their own public health.

3 So I'm here today to raise concerns about 

4 the role of nuclear power and the EPA's Clean 

5 Power Plan.

6 The draft rule declares that nuclear 

7 power is a core element of the nation's climate 

8 policy and pushes states to preserve, expand, and 

9 subsidize nuclear reactors. The EPA does this by 

10 pressuring states to ensure that reactors now 

11 being built are completed, no matter the cost, 

12 authorizing states to subsidize existing reactors 

13 to prevent uncompetitive ones from closing, and 

14 encouraging states to subsidize expensive 

15 retrofits to increase the power output of 

16 existing reactors.

17 These provisions could undermine the 

18 growth of real renewable energy and prevent the 

19 closure of coal-fired power plants. The rule 

20 encourages states to set up cap-and-trade 

21 programs and so-called "clean energy standards," 

22 which could permit nuclear plants to sell 

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1 emissions credits and offsets to fossil fuel 

2 plans. This is not just dangerous for our 

3 environment; it's dangerous for our communities, 

4 especially those communities living downwind and 

5 downstream of nuclear power plants.

6 The EPA must abandon subsidies and 

7 incentives for nuclear power in their plan and 

8 instead require that nuclear reactors that close 

9 are replaced with sustainable energy resources, 

10 including renewables efficiency and energy 

11 storage.

12 Certainly, we know that carbon dioxide is 

13 a pollutant that we must address as a leading 

14 cause of climate change, and there are no 

15 questions that we must drastically cut our carbon 

16 releases, and we thank you for this rule for 

17 that. But there are other releases that we need 

18 to take seriously and consider, and by basing 

19 clean energy standards on this implicit carbon 

20 formula, we are ignoring the past years of 

21 accumulated knowledge of the effects of radiation 

22 on public health.

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1 The National Academy of Science maintains 

2 that there is no safe dose of radiation for 

3 humans, and we know that nuclear power facilities 

4 release a variety of cancer-causing 

5 radionuclides, including tritium, strontium 

6 nitrate, cesium-137, plutonium-239, and dozens 

7 more.

8 Recently, the Nuclear Regulatory 

9 Commission has acknowledged that there have been 

10 releases of radioactive tritium from existing 

11 nuclear power reactors exceeding safe drinking 

12 water limits at 37 sites. That is more than half 

13 of our nuclear power sites.

14 The EPA allowable tritium standard is 

15 20,000 picocuries per liter, but there have been 

16 18 reactor sites that have had levels of over a 

17 million picocuries per liter. With a half-life 

18 of more than 12 years, the tritium released by 

19 these reactors will remain hazardous to the 

20 environment and likely be added to by new 

21 reactors for the next century.

22 Nuclear is the only one of many power 

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1 technologies that can produce electricity that is 

2 capable of a catastrophic event, that can kill 

3 tens or even hundreds of thousands of people, as 

4 we recently saw at Fukushima and other historical 

5 accidents. It presents a security threat of 

6 unprecedented proportions because of its 

7 vulnerability and creates a lethal byproduct of 

8 nuclear waste that will remain toxic for hundreds 

9 of thousands of years.

10 So to call nuclear power as clean is an 

11 affront to science and an affront to common 

12 sense. Again, we urge the EPA to take the clean 

13 part of the Clean Power Plan very seriously and 

14 abandon nuclear power as part of the plan.

15 Thank you.

16 MS. TONEY: Thank you both.

17 At this time, can we please have Barbara 

18 Antonoplos and Adrianna Quintero.

19 MS. ANTONOPLOS: I wonder how much energy 

20 they would save if they didn't make it as cold as 

21 wintertime in this building.

22 [Laughter.]

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1 MS. TONEY: All right. We will proceed 

2 with Ms. Antonoplos first, and then -- did I 

3 pronounce your name correctly? Is it "Quintero"?

4 MS. QUINTERO: Yes, you did. Thank you.

5 MS. ANTONOPLOS: Yes. I am Barbara 

6 Antonoplos. That is B-a-r-b-a-r-a, 

7 A-n-t-o-n-o-p-l-o-s. I am here today as a 

8 concerned citizen.

9 I would like to say that I support the 

10 basic intent of the EPA's proposed Clean Power 

11 Plan. Runaway carbon emissions are destructive 

12 to life on this lovely planet and must be 

13 decisively curbed. However, as proposed, the 

14 rule includes unnecessary and counterproductive 

15 support for nuclear power for existing, aging, 

16 uneconomical reactors, as well as for 

17 construction of new reactors, which is something 

18 I adamantly oppose.

19 On the surface, this proposal is about 

20 mitigating climate change due to the effects of 

21 carbon-emitting energy sources, but the bedrock 

22 issue is the fact that the planet is being 

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1 seriously degraded by the effects of our 

2 country's energy choices, and that truth applies 

3 not only to coal but also to nuclear generation 

4 and to fracking.

5 Whether we destroy our plant by climate 

6 change from excessive CO2 or by destabilizing the 

7 Earth and polluting our water sources through 

8 fracking or by nuclear radiation that causes 

9 genetic mutations and cancers and leaves large 

10 swaths of Earth and ocean dangerously 

11 contaminated and uninhabitable, the technology 

12 for which produces enormous quantities of lethal 

13 waste that must be isolated from all living 

14 things for 240,000 years, which is itself an 

15 unfathomable environmental problem, the result is 

16 the same, irreversible destruction. And so it is 

17 unacceptable for the EPA to propose a rule 

18 limiting CO2 emissions while giving support to 

19 other industries to irreparably harm the planet 

20 simply by different means. Such support has no 

21 place in a Clean Power Plan and must be entirely 

22 stripped out of the final rule.

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1 Those who benefit financially from the 

2 nuclear industry, which is already being propped 

3 up by inflated rates and bloated profits awarded 

4 by industry-captive regulators, and billions of 

5 dollars of taxpayer-funded corporate welfare say 

6 that these carbon rules cannot be met without 

7 ramped-up nuclear power. That is going on in 

8 Georgia.

9 Their spinmeisters are working around the 

10 clock to get that mythical message out in hopes 

11 that their cash cow will keep producing, so that 

12 they never have to reckon with the realities of a 

13 new era, but it is not the job of the EPA to prop 

14 this toxic industry up one more way for one more 

15 risky moment, especially when it is already being 

16 proven that energy efficiency and renewables are 

17 the most effective means by which to immediately 

18 address the climate challenges we face.

19 My mother was the daughter of a Georgia 

20 sharecropper, who ultimately owned his own farm 

21 and raised his own family on it. My father was 

22 the son of immigrants who, though they could 

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1 speak little English, developed very successful

2 businesses. My parents lived through two world 

3 wars and the Great Depression, fully embracing 

4 the need for sacrifice and ingenuity that those 

5 situations presented.

6 After World War II, my father became the 

7 first member of his family to earn a college 

8 degree. In fact, he earned two degrees from 

9 Emory University. Their legacy of marshalling 

10 resourcefulness and creativity to successfully 

11 meet formidable challenges has been passed on 

12 through my life to my children. So I don't have 

13 one ounce of patience with mega-billion-dollar 

14 corporations whining about not being able to meet 

15 the challenge of how to exist on this Earth 

16 without destroying it one way or another.

17 For decades, these industries have seen 

18 the warnings that the need for a paradigm shift 

19 was imminent, and they have obstinately refused 

20 to heed them.

21 They have even had the financial 

22 resources and brain power to innovate to match 

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1 the times, and they have refused. So more perks 

2 and incentives and more time to get with the 

3 program is not what this increasingly dire 

4 situation that they have helped create calls for. 

5 When it comes to protecting the air we breathe, 

6 the soil we grow our food in, and the water we 

7 drink, both for ourselves and for future 

8 generations, it is way past time to take action.

9 The EPA's own documents state the mission 

10 of the EPA is to protect human health and the 

11 environment, and EPA's purpose is to ensure that 

12 all Americans are protected from significant 

13 risks to human health and the environment where 

14 they live, learn, and work. This is the job I am 

15 calling upon you to do with regard to this rule, 

16 and it cannot be accomplished by jumping out of 

17 the coal frying pan and into the nuclear fire.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

20 [Applause.]

21 MS. TONEY: Ms. Quintero.

22 MS. QUINTERO: Good morning. My name is 

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1 Adrianna Quintero.

2 MS. TONEY: Give me just a second. We 

3 want to make sure you get your full time.

4 MS. QUINTERO: Sure. 

5 MS. TONEY: Yes.

6 MS. QUINTERO: Right now? 

7 A-d-r-i-a-n-n-a, Q-u-i-n-t-e-r-o. 

8 Good morning, and thank you for the 

9 opportunity to provide my comments. As I said, 

10 my name is Adrianna Quintero, and I am a Senior 

11 Attorney at the Natural Resources Defense Council 

12 and the Founder of Voces Verdes, which is a 

13 national coalition of Latino leaders in business, 

14 civic, and civil rights, as well as medical, 

15 public health sectors. We also represent 

16 organizational partners who represent in turn 

17 over 5 million Latinos nationwide.

18 Voces' leaders advocate for action to 

19 fight climate change and support clean energy, 

20 and as the Director of Voces, I am here to 

21 express our strong support for the Clean Power 

22 Plan.

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1 Our partners recently submitted a letter 

2 of support for the Clean Power Plan to EPA to 

3 finalize the strongest carbon pollution standard 

4 for existing power plants, to address the main 

5 cause of climate change, and protect our health 

6 and the health of future generations from the 

7 devastating impacts of extreme weather.

8 We have an obligation as citizens to 

9 protect our children and future generations from 

10 the impacts of climate change by addressing its 

11 causes, including carbon pollution from power 

12 plants. In the U.S., these plants are 

13 responsible for nearly 40 percent of the carbon 

14 pollution that is driving climate change, and 

15 while we currently protect our children from 

16 public health threats, like arsenic, lead, 

17 mercury, soot, and other pollution, there are no 

18 existing national limits on carbon pollution. 

19 That is not safe, and it must change.

20 Nationwide, 9 out of 10 Latinos want the 

21 government to take action against the dangers of 

22 climate change. Additionally, 8 out of 10 

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1 Latinos want the government to take action 

2 through the Clean Power Plan to curb carbon 

3 pollution. This support holds across all party 

4 lines, with 55 percent of Republicans, 88 percent 

5 of all Democrats, and 86 percent of Independents 

6 supporting presidential action. And those 

7 numbers date to December of 2013.

8 In Florida, one of the states, most 

9 threatened by flooding and other impacts of 

10 climate change, almost 7 out of 10 Latinos 

11 support the Clean Power Plan, and 8 in 10 believe 

12 there should be limits now on how much carbon 

13 pollution a power plant can release.

14 This plan would also avoid up to 6,600 

15 premature deaths each year, 150,000 asthma 

16 attacks for children, over 3,000 heart attacks, 

17 and almost a half-a-million missed days of work 

18 or school. For Latinos, these health impacts 

19 cannot be understated.

20 Ninety percent of Latinos live in 

21 metropolitan areas, and one out of two lives in a 

22 state that doesn't meet air quality standards 

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1 regularly for ozone and air pollutants. As we 

2 know, extreme weather and heat worsen those 

3 impacts, causing children and adults alike to 

4 suffer the consequences.

5 For Hispanic children, this again cannot 

6 be understated; for Hispanic parents, as well. 

7 Even full-time employed Hispanics are less likely 

8 to be fully insured and have to resort to 

9 emergency rooms and incur increased costs for 

10 treatment.

11 As a result, Hispanic children are almost 

12 twice as likely than non-Hispanic white children 

13 to be admitted to the hospital for asthma. In 

14 addition to that, it is an impact on family 

15 income, since a large number of our agricultural 

16 workforce, as well as many in the construction 

17 space, work outdoors. This causes many Hispanics 

18 to have to miss days of work when air quality is 

19 poor or suffer the consequences.

20 For our leaders at Voces, the proposed 

21 Clean Power Plan is not only about protecting our 

22 community's health but also about unleashing a 

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1 tremendous amount of economic potential. In our 

2 leadership coalition, there are business leaders

3 and owners who recognize this is an opportunity 

4 to preserve our environment, while also doing 

5 good for business. This plan is good for our 

6 environment, our health, and our economy, and 

7 will create incentives for entrepreneurs to enter 

8 the clean energy and efficiency space.

9 But I am also here as a mother of two 

10 children. We have the facts. We know from 

11 scientists, from governments, from activists, 

12 from doctors, and we have been making these 

13 connections for years. Sadly, our children 

14 continue to face this without a solution in site. 

15 This plan from EPA is one of those steps towards 

16 a solution.

17 The incessant political debate around 

18 proven climate science fueled by those who have 

19 put their financial interests before our 

20 well-being must stop.

21 Is my time up? My time is up. Thank 

22 you.

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1 MS. TONEY: Thank you very much.

2 If you have comments that you were not 

3 able to share, please make sure that you give 

4 those to us at the registration table, so that 

5 they can be included. Thank you.

6 MR. HUTSON: I just have a quick 

7 question. What is the organization that you 

8 represent?

9 MS. QUINTERO: Voces, V-o-c-e-s, Verdes, 

10 V-e-r-d-e-s.

11 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

12 We will now hear from Alexis Chase and 

13 Jennifer Rennicks.

14 As they are coming up, just another quick 

15 reminder to everyone, please make sure that your 

16 cell phones are turned to silent or vibrate for 

17 these hearings. Also, if you would, please try 

18 our best -- I know we have a lot of energy, but 

19 if we will try our best to hold our applause to 

20 the very end, it helps to preserve the time for 

21 the speakers as well as to give clear 

22 transcription for our transcriber.

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1 We will now hear from Ms. Chase.

2 REV. CHASE: Hi. My name is the Reverend 

3 Alexis Chase, A-l-e-x-i-s, C-h-a-s-e, and I am 

4 the Vicar of Holy Comforter Episcopal Church, 

5 here in the City of Atlanta. I am here to speak 

6 strongly in favor of the proposed Clean Power 

7 Plan standards.

8 As an ordained person, but more 

9 importantly as a Christian, I know that the Earth 

10 is not ours to own or destroy, nor did we create 

11 it in the first place. God was and is part of 

12 creating the world around us and placed us here 

13 to care for and tend this great earth, and when 

14 we don't take care of the planet, when we blow up 

15 its mountains to get at the coal underneath, when 

16 we waste energy not only in our production 

17 process but in how we use energy, when we 

18 knowingly and unnecessarily spew carbon, one of 

19 the key drivers of climate change in the air, 

20 then we are sinning. We are sinning against God, 

21 and we are sinning against the creation that God 

22 put here.

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1 As a mother and as someone that takes 

2 seriously the call God had put on my heart and on 

3 the heart of all people of faith to care for the 

4 least of us and the smallest of us when we 

5 knowingly and unnecessarily spew carbon into the 

6 air, which causes more asthma attacks, affects 

7 air quality, we are sinning against God and the 

8 very people that have been put into our care.

9 As Christians and as adults, it is high 

10 time we start acting like it and set standards 

11 for the carbon pollution that comes from our 

12 power plants. Setting sensible carbon pollution 

13 standards for our power plants is the right thing 

14 to do. It will contribute to vital resilient 

15 community.

16 The national Climate Action Plan includes 

17 provisions to enhance the infrastructure of our 

18 communities, so they can deal with the impacts of 

19 climate change that they are already feeling. It 

20 also promotes new energy efficiency measures to 

21 conserve and save consumers money, while also 

22 investing in clean energy sources, expanding 

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1 economic opportunity in clean energy, and 

2 providing jobs.

3 Carbon pollution exacerbates climate 

4 change, contributing to more frequent and more 

5 violent extreme weather that cost communities, 

6 the Federal Government, and our economy billions. 

7 We have the technology at hand to produce energy 

8 while also producing less carbon pollution, and 

9 the technology will create a new generation of 

10 clean energy jobs. These new clean energy jobs 

11 will replace the thousands of jobs that have 

12 already been lost in the dirty energy sector.

13 As someone that is actually from Kentucky 

14 and who is related to generations of coal miners, 

15 my family saw firsthand that coal companies could 

16 get 75 percent more coal with 75 percent less 

17 workers. So the myth that jobs in the dirty 

18 energy sector will be lost because of these 

19 standards is just that, a myth. Those jobs 

20 haven't been there for generations.

21 There is money to be had in the hills and 

22 hollers of Appalachia, but it is not in blowing 

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1 up the mountains. It is in leaving them alone 

2 and creating a pathway for retraining the 

3 existing working force and putting new investment 

4 in the new clean energy economy.

5 Since 1970, every dollar invested in 

6 compliance with Clean Air Act standards has 

7 yielded $4 to $8 in economic benefits. Those are 

8 real and lasting economic benefits that we can 

9 take advantage of now and into the future.

10 I support the new carbon reduction 

11 standards proposed by the EPA as a Christian, as 

12 a mother, and as a human on this planet that 

13 would like to breathe clean air and drink clean 

14 water and leave that also for my son.

15 I will continue to pray for the EPA, as I 

16 do every day, and I hope the rest of you do the 

17 same.

18 Thanks.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

20 Ms. Rennicks?

21 MS. RENNICKS: Thank you.

22 MS. TONEY: Give me just one moment, so 

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1 we can make sure you have your full time.

2 Okay.

3 MS. RENNICKS: Good morning. My name is 

4 Jennifer Rennicks, J-e-n-n-i-f-e-r, and my last 

5 name is Rennicks, R-e-n-n-i-c-k-s.

6 I offer my strong support today to the 

7 Environment Protection Agency for your proposed 

8 rule to regulate and reduce carbon dioxide and 

9 other invisible pollutants because I am the 

10 mother of an asthmatic child, and I speak for her 

11 today.

12 As the single largest source of carbon 

13 emissions in the United States, coal plants dump 

14 more than 2 billion tons of carbon pollution into 

15 the air every year, and limiting these emissions 

16 as well as sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, and 

17 particulate matter, it will drastically reduce 

18 the levels of air pollutants that aggravate 

19 respiratory diseases, and this is critically 

20 important to me, because my child, Emma, is one 

21 of the 7 million children in America that 

22 currently struggles with asthma. This is a 

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1 chronic respiratory disease that can leave her 

2 struggling for breath and wheezing with seemingly 

3 little notice.

4 For 13 years, my efforts to limit her 

5 exposure to triggers that caused asthma attacks 

6 have been restricted to things that were under my 

7 control only, pets, dust mites, allergens, mold, 

8 tobacco smoke, things like that. But by speaking 

9 in support of these proposed carbon rules today, 

10 I can finally take an action against one of the 

11 most significant triggers for asthma attacks, and 

12 that is outdoor air pollution caused by fossil 

13 fuel-powered plants.

14 When these rules are finally implemented, 

15 I will applaud the economic benefits that result 

16 when harmful levels of carbon pollution are 

17 reduced by deploying clean energy, but I will 

18 celebrate the possibility that my child will be 

19 one of 150,000 Americans that will not suffer an 

20 asthma attack each year.

21 I hope you, and I hope others listening 

22 today, understand that visits to urgent care to 

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1 treat a moderate to severe asthma attack, coupled 

2 with the necessary medications and supplies, have 

3 real financial costs. But those financial 

4 impacts have been easier sometimes to handle than 

5 the emotional ones.

6 I want you to imagine holding a young 

7 child barely 3 years old in your arm as she gasps 

8 for breath, and now I want you to picture her 

9 surprise and fear as strangers try to cover her 

10 face with a mask. She doesn't understand that 

11 the mask is there to help her breathe. She sees 

12 it as another obstacle, and it's scary.

13 In an attempt to soften the harsh and 

14 clinical nature of asthma treatments, nurses 

15 would connect my very young daughter to 

16 nebulizers, and one in particular had a fish-face 

17 mask. And you can see here today that her rescue 

18 inhaler still has a duck-face mask on it. 

19 These silicon parts are designed to make 

20 the whole process less daunting, but a silly face 

21 does not erase the fact that dealing with asthma 

22 is scary for children, it is worrisome for 

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1 parents, and it is expensive for our communities. 

2 Asthma's costs impact families far beyond 

3 medical bills, as parents have to miss work 

4 sometimes to care for their children. All 

5 employers don't provide paid sick leave, so 

6 sometimes parents are bringing home smaller 

7 paychecks to provide that care.

8 To those who loudly proclaim that 

9 reducing carbon pollution may be too costly, I 

10 would point out the direct and indirect cost from 

11 cooking with asthma alone costs approximately $18 

12 billion a year, and asthma is not the only 

13 disease that is impacted. Other heart and lung 

14 diseases are also worsened by pollution from coal 

15 power.

16 A recent Harvard Medical School study 

17 found that coal pollution costs the United States 

18 taxpayers between 175- and $523 billion every 

19 year in health and environmental impacts, so coal 

20 is actually three times at least more expensive 

21 than it would appear on our power bills.

22 Thankfully, my daughter's asthma symptoms 

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1 appear to be lessening over time; however, that 

2 may not always be the case. Scientists and 

3 public health experts warn that carbon-fueled 

4 climate may aggravate her symptoms because more 

5 heat and more smog may continue to make it 

6 difficult for her to breathe. I don't think this 

7 is a future scenario that any of us should be 

8 willing to accept, nor when we know there are 

9 solutions that are working right now.

10 I applaud EPA for proposing a flexible 

11 rule that can reduce these invisible yet harmful 

12 pollutants, and I urge you to finalize the Clean 

13 Power Plan as soon as possible, because these 

14 benefits cannot come soon enough for our children 

15 and our communities and, in particular, my 

16 daughter.

17 And I thank you for your consideration.

18 MS. TONEY: Thank you, ladies.

19 We will now hear from Marilyn Brown and 

20 Dennis Creech. Marilyn Brown and Dennis Creech.

21 [Pause.]

22 MS. TONEY: Ms. Brown, we will begin with 

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1 you.

2 MS. BROWN: Good morning. My name is 

3 Marilyn Brown. I am a Professor of Public Policy 

4 at the Georgia Institute of Technology and also 

5 the Director of the Climate and Energy Policy 

6 Lab. Let me spell my name. M-a-r-i-l-y-n, 

7 B-r-o-w-n.

8 The Clean Power Plan not only encourages 

9 states and utilities to use less carbon-intensive 

10 energy supplies, that is, the inside-the-fence 

11 approach, but it also encourages states and 

12 utilities to assist consumers in using less 

13 electricity by using it more efficiently. We 

14 call that the "outside-the-fence approach." The 

15 role of this proposed rule, the role this 

16 proposed rule may play in creating stronger 

17 markets for that energy efficiency side of the 

18 solution in the South, is the focus of my 

19 comments today.

20 It's particularly important in the South 

21 because we have been the beneficiary of low 

22 electricity rates for decades, and this has been, 

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1 of course, the reason that our economic growth 

2 has been so strong. But it also is a reason that 

3 we have become so energy inefficient. The low 

4 electricity prices have made energy efficiency 

5 and conservation less valuable. As a result, we 

6 live in a region with a bountiful opportunity to 

7 reduce its energy demand if the proper incentives 

8 are used, such as in the Clean Power Plan.

9 Because the South uses energy so 

10 wastefully, if you just take a look at home 

11 energy bills -- I had one of my students do some 

12 calculations -- the average home energy bill, 

13 that is, electricity and natural gas, in the 

14 South is $170 a month, and for the nation, 

15 including electricity and natural gas and fuel 

16 oil, the principal home energy fuels, it is $175 

17 a month. So our bills are almost as high as 

18 regions with more severe climate, despite the 

19 fact that we have such cheap electricity because 

20 we are so inefficient.

21 In the year 2013, the South was home to 

22 35 percent of the nation's population, but it 

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1 consumed 43 percent of the nation's electricity, 

2 a very high intensity, indeed. The region has a 

3 great deal of demand-reduction potential, as I 

4 mentioned, and indeed, the documentation backing 

5 up the Clean Power Plan cites my work in 

6 justifying the push for energy efficiency, 

7 because I've done a lot of work to show how cost 

8 effective it is. 

9 But in fact, I believe that the 

10 documentation and the Clean Power Plan does not 

11 sufficiently reflect the opportunity for 

12 efficiency. More is actually available than is 

13 in the proposed goals for states across the 

14 country and particularly in the South.

15 The high levels of energy intensity 

16 reflect a lot of factors in the South. We have 

17 poor energy efficiency policies. Twenty U.S. 

18 states have energy efficiency resource standards, 

19 and only two of these 20 are in the South. 

20 Sixteen states have decoupled utility profits 

21 from sales, but only two of those are located in 

22 the South.

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1 Utilities in the South have spent on 

2 average $7 per capita on electricity efficiency 

3 programs. The average nationwide is $19, and the 

4 average in the State of Georgia is $3. So there 

5 is certainly room for improvement.

6 When I talk about energy efficiency, I 

7 don't just mean cold showers and warm beer. We 

8 are talking about using energy more wisely, with 

9 high-efficiency florescent bulbs, for instance, 

10 solid state lighting, smart thermostats that idle 

11 equipment when it is not needed. The list goes 

12 on.

13 In 2010, I coauthored a study with a team 

14 of researchers from Duke and Georgia Tech, and we 

15 looked at the potential for energy efficiency in 

16 the South. We demonstrated, for instance, in the 

17 State of Georgia alone, an energy efficiency 

18 potential that could save Georgians $3.8 billion 

19 annually, if implemented --

20 MS. TONEY: Ms. Brown?

21 MS. BROWN: Is that it?

22 MS. TONEY: That is time, but thank you.

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1 MS. BROWN: Okay.

2 MS. TONEY: If you would, please, for us, 

3 if you would take those comments and make sure 

4 that we have them, and we can make them a part of 

5 the record.

6 MS. BROWN: I will. I will submit them 

7 electronically online.

8 MS. TONEY: Thank you so much.

9 MS. BROWN: Thank you.

10 MS. TONEY: Mr. Creech.

11 MR. CREECH: Good morning. I am Dennis 

12 Creech. I am the Executive Director of Southface 

13 Energy Institute, an Atlanta-based non-profit 

14 organization that has provided education, 

15 research, and technical assistance on clean 

16 energy development across the Southeast for 35 

17 years.

18 My perspective on the proposed in EPA 

19 standard is simple: Georgia can meet this 

20 standard and, in doing so, further stimulate the 

21 growth of our clean energy economy. While we as 

22 a state have made significant progress in 

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1 promoting energy efficiency and developing new 

2 renewable energy, we can do much, much more.

3 I come today to share a practitioner's 

4 perspective. For more than three decades, 

5 Southface has been on the ground, training 

6 builders, working with code officials, assisting 

7 local governments and utilities, and supporting 

8 clean energy companies.

9 I would like to give a couple of examples 

10 of our market-based approach to advancing clean 

11 energy that show that clean energy works in 

12 Georgia and that we have a strong clean energy 

13 industry that can scale quickly to meet the 

14 proposed EPA standard.

15 Fifteen years ago, Southface and the 

16 Greater Atlanta Home builders Association 

17 established EarthCraft, the first green building 

18 certification program designed for the Southeast. 

19 To date, builders have certified more than 30,000 

20 EarthCraft homes, homes that cut energy and water 

21 costs and put money in the pockets of consumers.

22 Two years ago, Southface partnered with 

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1 the City of Atlanta and the commercial real 

2 estate industry to launch the Atlanta Better 

3 Buildings Challenge. As a result, over 70 

4 million square feet of commercial office space in 

5 Atlanta has pledged to save energy and water use, 

6 at least 20 percent by 2020. By the way, the 

7 Omni, the site of today's hearings, as well as 

8 the Sam Nunn federal building, which houses the 

9 offices of Region 4 EPA, have joined the Atlanta 

10 Better Buildings Challenge.

11 Our local utilities, too, have expanded 

12 their energy efficiency programs. Georgia Power 

13 saves 300,000 megawatt-hours a year with its 

14 current demand-side management programs. 

15 Likewise, Georgia's 41 electric membership 

16 cooperatives offer a range of energy efficiency 

17 programs to their customers.

18 However, neither private sector nor 

19 utility energy efficiency initiatives in Georgia 

20 have come close to exhausting the potential for 

21 cost-effective savings. Each day, we see 

22 enormous potential for cutting energy waste in 

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1 our economy.

2 We also see untapped potential for 

3 renewable energy production. While we have 

4 finally moved beyond the myth that solar energy 

5 doesn't work in Georgia and developed a strong 

6 solar market, we can do much, much more. 

7 Southface maintains an online solar energy map 

8 that tracks solar installations across the state. 

9 We know of more than 920 residential and 

10 commercial projects with the collective capacity 

11 of 110 megawatts.

12 Our utilities have also shown leadership 

13 in this arena. Georgia Power's Advanced Solar 

14 Initiative will bring online more than 700 

15 additional megawatts of solar energy by the end 

16 of 2016. GreenPower EMC, which provides clean 

17 energy to the state's electric membership 

18 cooperatives, recently announced a 20-megawatt 

19 solar deal.

20 As with energy efficiency, we have 

21 untapped potential and a solar industry in 

22 Georgia ready to create jobs and strengthen local 

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1 economies. In fact, clean energy is already 

2 having a positive impact on Georgia's economy.

3 In 2013, Southface partnered with 

4 government and industry to conduct the Georgia 

5 Clean Energy Industry Census. The data shows 

6 more than 600 clean energy firms in the state. 

7 About two-thirds of the firms provided employment 

8 and sales data. These companies employ over 

9 9,700 full-time personnel and generate at least 

10 $2.6 billion annually in revenues. This sector 

11 is poised to grow more.

12 In closing, I want to acknowledge that 

13 there will be some who say we can't cut carbon 

14 pollution. They will claim such regulation is 

15 burdensome, and it will drive up the cost of 

16 electricity, destabilize the grid, and cost 

17 American jobs. I don't believe it. I have seen 

18 firsthand the potential for energy efficiency and 

19 renewable energy to enhance our quality of life 

20 and grow our economy. 

21 We can achieve the carbon pollution 

22 standard in Georgia, and it is the smart thing to 

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1 do.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

4 At this time, we are going to hear from 

5 David Hayes and Arthur Gibert. 

6 Before we break for lunch, we are going 

7 to complete the list before lunch. If you will 

8 please be patient with us just a few more 

9 moments, we will hear from David Hayes, Arthur 

10 Gibert, and then immediately following those two 

11 speakers, we will hear from Teri Blanton and 

12 Glenn Carroll. So if Teri Blanton and Glenn 

13 Carroll can just simply make their way to this 

14 front row, so they will be prepared to take the 

15 podium after these two speakers. Then we will 

16 break for lunch.

17 David Hayes.

18 MR. HAYES: My name is David Hayes, 

19 H-a-y-e-s, and I am a 21-year-old resident of 

20 Tennessee. I will send in more specific comments 

21 based on an EPA's request later, but for now, I 

22 don't want to talk about specifics or 

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1 environmental protection. I want to talk about 

2 human protection.

3 When asthma rates are devastating the 

4 lives of children, cancer rates on the rise, when 

5 an estimated 500 people a year die in Tennessee 

6 from coal pollution, we need to act. We 

7 shouldn't find excuses why we can't act. We need 

8 to find ways to act and make progress.

9 We shouldn't claim to oppose this new 

10 rule to protect the working class and lower 

11 income homes when they are the ones facing the 

12 consequences of dirty air and an unstable climate 

13 from carbon pollution.

14 I support this new policy not because it 

15 will clean our air and save our climate overnight 

16 but because I am morally obligated and owe it to 

17 the people suffering now and the future 

18 generations, and I need to stand up for them and 

19 stand up with them and work in their best 

20 interests. 

21 First, I applaud the EPA for proposing 

22 this new rule, and I urge them to not only keep 

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1 going from here but to help save people suffering 

2 now and also look after people who are coming 

3 after us.

4 Thank you.

5 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

6 Arthur Gibert. Did I pronounce that 

7 correctly?

8 MR. GIBERT: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.

9 My name is Arthur Gibert. That is 

10 A-r-t-h-u-r, G-i-b-e-r-t. I am a native of 

11 Atlanta. I am a landscape architect and planner. 

12 I'm NABCEP entry level-certified as a solar 

13 designer.

14 I would like to first say, generally, I 

15 strongly support any and all EPA actions to 

16 protect the climate that we all rely on. We live 

17 in it. We breathe it. We have to drink clean 

18 water. If we don't, we die young. We die bad 

19 deaths. Time is short anyway, so we do not need 

20 to squander any opportunities to clean the 

21 environment of air pollution, water pollution, 

22 contaminated soils, carbon pollution. We need to 

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1 address climate change, and I strongly support 

2 the EPA's Clean Energy Plan and guidelines.

3 I strongly support any action that the 

4 EPA will take to limit any further delay of 

5 closing inefficient, dirty power plants, 

6 particularly coal-burning power plants.

7 I am alarmed by an apparent complacency 

8 for the nation to start switching to natural gas, 

9 which though cleaner still generates heat, carbon 

10 pollution, still relies on extraction of 

11 resources. In that game as well, there will be 

12 winners and losers.

13 Economically speaking, we have a far 

14 better option in front of us. There is enough 

15 solar power falling on the State of Georgia to 

16 power the entire country.

17 Countries like Germany, which have 

18 subsidized solar development, have proven that 

19 solar power can work. We don't even really need 

20 to do that. What we need to do is level the 

21 playing field economically by withdrawing 

22 subsidization from fossil fuel industry. If that 

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1 needs to happen gradually, then fine, as long as 

2 we'll do it, because dumping waste products into 

3 the air is, in business parlance, an 

4 externalization of cost.

5 I am subsidizing with my health and my 

6 lungs and my lifestyle, my outdoor activities, my 

7 nieces and nephews' health. I am subsidizing 

8 Georgia Power and the Southern Company, allowing 

9 them to dump their waste products into the 

10 atmosphere. They need to do every possible thing 

11 they can to clean their waste out of the air.

12 I will tell you, I have been a 

13 development consultant for a quarter of a 

14 century. I have worked for developers of all 

15 sizes and scales and types. Here is the deal. 

16 If you clarify the rules and you help them comply 

17 with the rules, they will follow the rules. We 

18 need to make the rules, and they will stop 

19 dumping their junk into our air. Otherwise, they 

20 will not.

21 You may hear from lobbyists, and I am not 

22 pointing fingers or naming names, but you may 

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1 hear from many different lobbyists who will tell 

2 you that they are not ready; it could take 

3 another 20 years to get their mess cleaned up. 

4 Well, that is the same thing we heard from the 

5 car industry about seat belts and airbags, and 

6 guess what? When they are required to do it, 

7 they can do it. In fact, the utilities have 

8 their plans already drawn up. They can do it and 

9 they will do it as soon as we make them do it. 

10 Until then, they won't.

11 That is all I have to say right now, but 

12 I will fill out online comments. Thank you so 

13 much for the opportunity to speak.

14 MS. TONEY: Thank you both, gentlemen.

15 Can we have Teri Blenton and Glenn 

16 Carroll. These will be our final two speakers 

17 for the morning session. Teri Blenton and Glenn 

18 Carroll.

19 MS. CUNNINGHAM: I am not Teri Blenton. 

20 We can't find her, and the folks at your front 

21 desk told me to go ahead and jump in.

22 MS. TONEY: Okay. So please give us your 

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1 name.

2 MS. CUNNINGHAM: My name is Sarah Lynn 

3 Cunningham. S-a-r-a-h, L-y-n-n, Cunningham like 

4 it sounds. I am a lifelong Kentuckian. I am an 

5 environmental engineer registered in the State of 

6 Kentucky. My home and my office are powered with 

7 solar power, photovoltaics.

8 I have practiced engineering as both a 

9 regulator, an environmental regulator, albeit at 

10 the state and local level, and I have been a 

11 member of the regulated body who had to help my 

12 employer figure out how to comply with EPA 

13 regulations. So I see this with two different 

14 hats. Well, actually more than that, but those 

15 are the two I am going to focus on.

16 I am currently a retired civil servant, 

17 but I earn my living by helping my clients to 

18 improve their energy efficiency and to tap 

19 renewable energy and as an educator. I represent 

20 the Louisville Climate Action Network, the 

21 Kentucky Conservation Committee, the Climate 

22 Reality Project, all of whom recognize that the 

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1 U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said that the 

2 U.S. EPA needs to regulate greenhouse gases per 

3 the Clean Air Act, and that is what we are hoping 

4 you will do.

5 I gave up 2 days of earning wages because 

6 I believe that global climate change is the moral 

7 crisis that faces us this century. It is the 

8 crisis of the century, and because Kentuckians, 

9 of all people, need your help.

10 I am not going to bother talking about 

11 the scientific consensus because I know you know 

12 that about climate change.

13 Coal has long dominated you know politics 

14 for well over a century, despite the fact that 

15 the industry really doesn't care about Kentucky 

16 or about Kentuckians. It has had a very long 

17 history of laying off miners and trashing the 

18 economy of small coal field economies as fast as 

19 it could, replace those people with mechanization 

20 or shortcut techniques like mountaintop removal.

21 The cost of electricity in the last 10 

22 years in Kentucky residential, commercial, and 

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1 industrial sector has averaged an increase of 6 

2 percent per year. It is not like stable prices 

3 are the status quo and you are going to change 

4 them. For that price, we could be doing so much 

5 better.

6 The State of Kentucky's legislature has 

7 long protected or at least historically protected 

8 the tobacco industry. We compromised our health, 

9 our laws, our economy to protect that industry, 

10 all the while they're shipping our jobs to places 

11 with cheaper labor. We have a history of being 

12 allegiant to industries that don't care about us, 

13 and we're doing it now with coal.

14 They are trying to maintain control. I 

15 understand the industry is really not happy that 

16 they can't keep using our state as their free 

17 dump, but it's too bad. We need to do better 

18 than this. However, our legislature won't do it.

19 Less than 1 percent of Kentucky's workers 

20 work for the coal industry, and yet it still 

21 dominates our politics. Our 

22 Democratically-controlled Statehouse is chaired 

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1 by somebody in the coal business. Our 

2 Republican-controlled State Senate, the 

3 environmental committees of both of these groups, 

4 energy committees, he is in the coal industry, as 

5 well. So it's pretty incestuous. 

6 No financial advisor would say to you, 

7 put 93 percent of your investments in one basket, 

8 and yet that's what our state does for electrical 

9 production, 93 percent in coal. That is dumb.

10 We so provide economic subsidies and so 

11 allow this industry to externalize its waste and 

12 its pollution into the rest of the economy and to 

13 tearing up our roads, reducing our property tax 

14 base, which impacts the schools, to say nothing 

15 of our health, and so we really just desperately 

16 need the U.S. EPA to step in where we can't seem 

17 to do it ourselves and protect us. So we really 

18 want you to comply with the Supreme Court's 

19 rulings.

20 I left my Show and Tell in my backpack, 

21 but at one point in Louisville, visibility was so 

22 bad due to coal smoke, you had to use your 

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1 headlights in the middle of the day. The average 

2 Louisvillian in 1933 was calculated to inhale 

3 1-1/2 cups of soot per year. My own grandmother 

4 and great-grandmother of COPD from coal smoke. 

5 They never smoked tobacco in their life. We have 

6 a long history of being forced to be subservient 

7 to this industry. We really need your help.

8 Cap-and-trade was a Republican idea. It 

9 worked really well on acid rain precursors. It 

10 would work even better on greenhouse gases.

11 I want you to know I really care about 

12 miners. I just spent 4 days in the coal fields 

13 myself. I really care about those people. I 

14 understand they are freaked out about their jobs, 

15 but you know what, replacing inefficient furnaces 

16 and air-conditioners, insulating businesses, 

17 homes, and schools requires people with good 

18 handy skills.

19 Does that mean it's time?

20 MS. TONEY: That's time.

21 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you. I wondered 

22 when you were going to give me a warning.

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1 MS. TONEY: Thank you. We appreciate it.

2 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Those coal miners could 

3 be trained to do that work.

4 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

5 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you.

6 MS. TONEY: Thank you for your comments.

7 Ms. Carroll?

8 MS. CARROLL: My name is Glenn Carroll. 

9 I represent Nuclear Watch South. We have a 

10 thousand members in Georgia and 17,000 members 

11 around the world.

12 This rule that the EPA is proposing is 

13 historic and important. It is hard to imagine 

14 the amount of pressure that you are under, 

15 especially from moneyed special interests.

16 We have an ask from Nuclear Watch South 

17 that you take the nuclear support provisions out 

18 of the rule. It is counterproductive, and it 

19 eclipses truly clean energy, wind and solar. We 

20 can do better than build radioactive waste 

21 factories to meet our goals.

22 Georgia and Georgia Power provide a good 

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1 illustration of wrong consequences from the draft 

2 rule as it stands. Georgia Power is building two 

3 new nuclear reactors. They are charging us a tax 

4 on our power bills ahead of time to defray some 

5 of the costs. They have received $6.5 billion in 

6 free loans from our Treasury, from the U.S. 

7 Treasury, except Georgia Power isn't even using 

8 almost half of its available power. It is 

9 experiencing a 10-year trend of flat sales, which 

10 has turned into the past 3 years, a trend in 

11 falling electricity sales, but Georgia Power is 

12 achieving its carbon coals by building two new 

13 radioactive waste factories at Plant Vogtle with 

14 almost $18 billion of mostly public money. This 

15 is not what we need to accomplish.

16 God forbid -- well, now let's get EPA. 

17 These radioactive waste factories, these nuclear 

18 power plants in our state, dump hot water into 

19 our rivers and steam into the atmosphere, which 

20 is a greenhouse gas at high enough elevation, so 

21 you must consider certain emissions even from 

22 nuclear that aren't carbon. 

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1 God forbid that these nuclear reactors 

2 would ever accidentally dump all of its radiation 

3 into the entire northern hemisphere. That would 

4 not be what we're after here.

5 Fracking. Oh, my gosh. You know, that's 

6 not an area I am conversant in. I hope you are 

7 going to hear from fracking activists, but in the 

8 upsurge of fracking recently, we have burned less 

9 carbon emissions from burning, but we have 

10 increased our emissions because of the methane 

11 that is getting out as we attempt to retrieve 

12 this cheap natural gas, so I hope somebody is 

13 speaking about that.

14 I will enter "Carbon-Free and 

15 Nuclear-Free Future" into the record. I know the 

16 author did meet with the EPA, and I will send you 

17 guys a copy of it. I have got this darling 

18 little brochure about it.

19 I want to sing you a verse from a song 

20 that a friend of mine wrote, and her husband has 

21 COPD. And I don't know if it's from coal. He 

22 smoked tobacco, but she's got to put a pacemaker 

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1 in her husband tomorrow, and she couldn't be 

2 here. But she has this wonderful song, and this 

3 is the chorus.

4 [Singing.] "We are gathered here to honor 

5 the atmosphere. That precious life-giving 

6 source. In the coming days, we must change our 

7 ways. Now we begin to chart our course.

8 Thank you for bringing us together."

9 Thank you for bringing us together.

10 MS. TONEY: And thank you very much.

11 With that being our final speaker for 

12 this morning's session, I think that is a very 

13 fitting place for us to give a round of applause 

14 to all of our speakers for today.

15 [Applause.]

16 MS. TONEY: Again, thank you all for 

17 coming and spending your time.

18 We are now going to take our lunch break. 

19 We will resume at 1 p.m. It has been a pleasure 

20 being your Chairperson for the Morning Session, 

21 and I want to thank you again to my co-chairs 

22 here. You all please go and enjoy your lunch 

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1 break, and we will resume at 1 p.m.

2 Thank you.

3 [Luncheon recess.]

4 AFTERNOON SESSION

5 MR. THOMPSON: Ladies and gentlemen, we 

6 would like to get started. If folks could find 

7 their way to a seat, we will get this moving.

8 [Pause.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: For the record, this is 

10 the public hearing on the proposed carbon 

11 pollution plan and proposed carbon pollution 

12 standards for modified and reconstructed power 

13 plants being held in Atlanta, Georgia, on July 

14 29th, 2014.

15 Good afternoon. My name is Fred 

16 Thompson. I am the Associate Division Director 

17 of the Sectors Policies and Programs Division in 

18 EPA's Office of Air Quality Planning and 

19 Standards and one of the Chairs of today's Public 

20 Hearing. Thank you all for coming today.

21 Joining me on the panel this afternoon 

22 are, to my right, Nick Hutson, one of the 

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1 engineers leading the rule; and to my left, Julia 

2 Miller, an energy efficiency expert.

3 We are here today to listen to your 

4 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

5 pollution from power plants. EPA announced both 

6 of these proposed rules on June the 2nd, 2014.

7 Power plants are the largest source of 

8 carbon pollution in the U.S., accounting for 

9 roughly one-third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

10 emissions.

11 The first rule is EPA's Proposed Clean 

12 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

13 proposal consists of two main part: 

14 state-specific goals to lower carbon pollution 

15 from the power plants and guidelines to help 

16 states develop their plans for meeting the goals. 

17 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

18 determining how to meet their goals. States will 

19 choose what goes into their plans that show how 

20 they will achieve the needed reductions and meet 

21 their goals by 2030.

22 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

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1 address Carbon Dioxide Emissions from Modified 

2 and Reconstructed Power Plants. This rule would 

3 set emissions limits for two groups of power 

4 plants: those that make physical or operational 

5 changes that increase the plant's maximum 

6 achievable hourly rate of emissions and those 

7 that replace components to such an extent that 

8 the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

9 capital cost of an entirely new, comparable 

10 facility.

11 If you would like more details on either 

12 of these proposed rules, there are fact sheets 

13 available near the registration desk out front.

14 Today's hearing is one of four Public 

15 Hearings across the country this week on these

16 two proposed rules. We have had tremendous 

17 interest in each of the hearings, and I would 

18 like to thank you for taking the time out of your 

19 day today to join us and share your comments.

20 We have a lot of people signed up to 

21 speak today, and we want to hear from all of 

22 them. So before we get started, I would like to 

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1 go through a few housekeeping and ground rules 

2 that will hopefully help make today's hearings 

3 run smoothly.

4 First, please be sure you have checked in 

5 at the registration desk, even if you are not 

6 planning to speak today, and if you signed up to 

7 speak online or by phone but haven't told us that 

8 you are here, please step out to the registration 

9 desk and let the EPA staff know there that you 

10 have arrived.

11 Second, if you are a speaker, you were 

12 given a room letter when you checked in, Room A 

13 or Room B. This is Room A. So this would be a 

14 good time to ask the question, are you in the 

15 right room, and if not, that's okay. This would 

16 be the appropriate time to make the switch.

17 So here is how today's hearing will work. 

18 I will call speakers up in pairs. When your name 

19 is called, please come to the table at the front 

20 of the room, which is located here. When I call 

21 on you to speak, please state your name and spell 

22 it for the court reporter. Your comments will be 

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1 transcribed and included in the record of 

2 comments on the proposed rule.

3 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

4 comments. We have a light right here. Yes, we 

5 have a light that turns green to yellow, and that 

6 means you have 1 minute remaining. When it turns 

7 red, that's the signal to wrap up your testimony. 

8 The light will flash red and beep when you have 

9 spoken for 5 minutes, and it's time to stop at 

10 that point.

11 When you are finished speaking, please 

12 remain at the table until the person next to you 

13 has completed his or her testimony.

14 We are here to listen to you today. 

15 However, a panel member may ask you questions to 

16 clarify your comments. I will then call up the 

17 next pair of speakers and so on.

18 If you have brought a written copy of 

19 your testimony, please give that to the staff at 

20 the registration desk before you leave today.

21 Because of the large number of people who 

22 have signed up to speak today and to be fair to 

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1 everyone, we are going to have to strictly 

2 enforce the 5-minute limit.

3 If you have additional comments you would 

4 like to make, you can submit them in writing. 

5 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as much 

6 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

7 as we do to comments we receive at public 

8 hearings like this one. So if you have more that 

9 you would like to say, please submit it. Your 

10 comments will -- I assure you, they will be 

11 reviewed.

12 There is still plenty of time to get 

13 written comments in, and there are comment cards 

14 available at the registration desk. Comments 

15 must be received by October 16th, 2014. I will 

16 repeat that. Comments must be received by 

17 October 16th, 2014.

18 We will put any written comments today in 

19 the official docket for the proposed rule. 

20 Instructions for submitting written comments in 

21 other ways are available at the materials table 

22 near the registration desk, again, that is 

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1 located out front.

2 We are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. 

3 tonight, and we will take a dinner break. Right 

4 now, the dinner break is scheduled for five 

5 o'clock. In addition, we may take occasional 

6 short breaks throughout the afternoon, as needed.

7 If you have any questions during the day, 

8 please see the staff at the registration desk, 

9 and someone will try to help you.

10 Finally, I want to ask each of you to 

11 please be respectful of everyone who speaks 

12 today. We have people with a wide variety of 

13 views in the audience, and we want to hear from 

14 all of you. So we can do that and to be fair, we 

15 ask that everyone listen quietly. Even applause 

16 can slow things down, and we want to hear from 

17 everyone who has signed up to speak.

18 Thank you again for taking the time today 

19 to share your comments on the EPA's proposed 

20 rules.

21 With that being said, let's get started. 

22 At this time, I would like to invite Commissioner 

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1 Cavanaugh and Lane E. Boldman to the podium for 

2 testimony.

3 [Pause.]

4 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, ladies. 

5 Starting with Commissioner Cavanaugh, could you 

6 pronounce and spell your name for the court 

7 reporter and then begin your testimony.

8 MS. CAVANAUGH: Twinkle Andress 

9 Cavanaugh. T-w-i-n-k-l-e, A-n-d-r-e-s-s. 

10 Cavanaugh, C-a-v-a-n-a-u-g-h. 

11 Thank you for the opportunity to speak 

12 today on behalf of all Alabamians. My name is 

13 Twinkle Andress Cavanaugh, and I am President of 

14 the Alabama Public Service Commission.

15 I am here today to ask you to please stop 

16 strangling our State with more federal mandates 

17 that cripple our economy and seek to forever 

18 change our way of life.

19 As President of the Alabama Public 

20 Service Commission, I promised that I would 

21 fight. I would fight to keep our power rates 

22 affordable and reliable. At a time when families 

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1 and businesses can least afford to pay, federal 

2 mandates from Washington have obstructed our 

3 ability to make the best decisions for our state, 

4 and they have driven up the cost that consumers 

5 pay for electricity.

6 Alabama families are financially 

7 strapped. We have an anemic economy, a rising 

8 cost of living, and a complete uncertainty, both 

9 here and around the world, but, you know, after 

10 traveling all around Alabama, it is clear that 

11 what mamas and daddies want is the least 

12 expensive option to power their homes.

13 Small businesses and industry also share 

14 that same concern. They depend on affordable and 

15 reliable power to stay in business and to grow 

16 jobs.

17 I am a mom, and as a mom, I can assure 

18 you that we want a clean environment. However, 

19 we have clearly reached the point of diminishing 

20 return. The cost of compliance and the burdens 

21 placed on working families are enormous compared 

22 to what is now very debatable benefits.

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1 With $2.7 billion already spent over the 

2 last decade by the largest utility company in 

3 Alabama and another billion dollars in projects 

4 already underway to comply with current federal 

5 mandates, I am compelled oppose any new mandates 

6 coming out of Washington.

7 Currently, the average residential 

8 customer in Alabama pays 144 extra dollars every 

9 year, more than they did just a decade ago, to 

10 comply with the federal mandates that are already 

11 on the books. The expenses that are already 

12 being passed on to the customer each month have 

13 reduced emissions by close to 80 percent. 

14 I can't stand by idly now and let you 

15 continue to place a bigger burden on the backs of 

16 Alabamians. By your own admission, by your 

17 administration's own admission, electricity 

18 prices will increase, and jobs will be lost. 

19 That's not what we need in this country, and it's 

20 not what we need in Alabama.

21 Our Federal Government must stop picking 

22 winners when our hardworking citizens are the 

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1 losers.

2 Electricity, it should not be a luxury 

3 item. Our seniors, single moms, and struggling 

4 families should not have to choose between what 

5 they need for their family, their basic needs, 

6 and keeping the lights on. They shouldn't have 

7 to choose whether or not they can keep their air 

8 conditioner running during hot, sweltering 

9 summers in Alabama.

10 One of the primary drivers for bringing 

11 new jobs to our state has been the ability to 

12 offer both reliable electricity and electricity 

13 as a competitive rate. At a time when job growth 

14 is crucial to the recovery of not just our 

15 nation's economy but Alabama's economy. Why 

16 would you handcuff us with more burdensome 

17 regulations?

18 With all the unrest we are experiencing 

19 around the world, this is the absolute worst time 

20 to further restrain our energy supply and 

21 continue the drain on our economy. I ask you to 

22 please let us use our most abundant resource: 

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1 coal. I refuse to dismiss the use of our own 

2 God-given natural resource and the ability to 

3 produce inexpensive energy by using it.

4 Please let us use our least expensive 

5 option. Don't intrude on our ability to make 

6 decisions that affect our future and Alabama. 

7 Our future as a free nation depends on it. It 

8 depends on the ability to power our country and 

9 to grow our economy, to grow jobs.

10 I ask you to consider a moratorium on 

11 more mandates and let our economy recover.

12 Thank you for letting me speak on behalf 

13 of the great State of Alabama.

14 [Applause.]

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Commissioner 

16 Cavanaugh. Thank you for your testimony. If you 

17 will remain seated.

18 Ms. Boldman.

19 MS. BOLDMAN: Yes. My name is Lane 

20 Boldman, L-a-n-e, B-o-l-d-m-a-n, and I represent 

21 the Kentucky Environmental Foundation, an 

22 organization dedicated to securing solutions for 

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1 environmental problems by safeguarding human 

2 health.

3 We appreciate the EPA's Clean Power Plan 

4 and attempts to address climate change. We want 

5 to suggest some areas of strengthening the Clean 

6 Power Plan, and we will submit longer comments in 

7 writing, but I will give you the highlights.

8 For health impacts, we would like to see 

9 the EPA demonstrate how each of the proposed 

10 methods of carbon reduction in the Clean Power 

11 Plan protects human health. Kentucky is a state 

12 that has elevated asthma rates and cardiovascular 

13 disease, both of which are linked to carbon 

14 pollution. The Clean Power Plan does not address 

15 the environmental impacts to human health and 

16 externalities of the whole fuel cycle as a basis 

17 for decision-making.

18 The American Public Health Association 

19 and the World Health Association have identified 

20 climate change as one of the biggest threats to 

21 public health in this era. Kentuckians face a 

22 wide range of risks associated with climate 

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1 change, and our state already has suffered 

2 significant damage from carbon pollution for many 

3 decades.

4 Kentucky has some of the highest rates of 

5 asthma in the nation. According to the CDC, in 

6 2008, adult lifetime asthma prevalence was 14.7 

7 percent, high above the U.S. average, same with 

8 asthma rates in children, 9.7 percent.

9 In addition, air pollution can affect 

10 cardiovascular disease, where Kentuckians have 

11 significantly higher rates. According to the 

12 Cabinet for Health and Human Services in 

13 Kentucky, Kentucky ranked eighth out of 50 states 

14 for cardiovascular death rates.

15 The EPA's proposed carbon pollution 

16 standards could protect our citizens more by 

17 reducing the smog that triggers asthma attacks 

18 and other health threats, but efforts by our 

19 state regulators and state enforcement efforts 

20 still leave Kentuckians near the very bottom of 

21 every indicator compared to what is actually 

22 possible or being achieved in other states. 

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1 That's why we need the EPA to step in.

2 State regulators are either unable or 

3 unwilling to strongly enforce local standards 

4 that protect human health from coal's impacts. 

5 We authored a health impact assessment of coal 

6 and clean energy options in Kentucky, which we 

7 will send to you.

8 We want to address environmental justice. 

9 The Clean Power Plan does not do enough to 

10 address concentrations of localized pollution. 

11 We would like to see stronger incentives to 

12 protect low-income communities who can be 

13 disproportionately affected by carbon pollution.

14 We'd like to see stronger reduction 

15 goals. Even though the Clean Power Plan focuses 

16 on reducing carbon pollution from power plants by 

17 30 percent by 2030, the EPA estimated we could 

18 make the reductions faster.

19 Kentucky's Assistant Secretary for 

20 Climate Policy, John Lyons, recently stated that 

21 the average carbon emissions of Kentucky's fleet 

22 of coal-fired power plants should meet the new 

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1 standard by 2020. That is because 11 coal 

2 boilers are already scheduled to be shut down 

3 because of EPA's air quality regulations. So, in 

4 other words, Kentucky can meet the Clean Power 

5 Plan standards simply by continuing their present 

6 course, with little incentives for additional 

7 innovation.

8 We understand their plea for flexibility, 

9 but flexibility should not override strong 

10 incentives for states to step up their game. 

11 That's the whole point of this.

12 While the EPA standards call for 30 

13 percent reduction in the nation's carbon 

14 emissions, Kentucky's specific goal is only 18.3 

15 percent. We are already at the bottom, and our 

16 regulators don't want to do more. The 

17 flexibility is a disincentive for real action.

18 Kentucky's progress to date allows it to 

19 remain at the very bottom of every indicator, 

20 from efficiency to clean power to protection of 

21 human health. The Clean Power Plan continues the 

22 subsidization of obsolete coal-fired and nuclear 

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1 power, making it more difficult to move our state 

2 forward and to cleaner resources. We have to 

3 move forward.

4 We need stronger incentives for energy 

5 efficiency and renewables. The Clean Power Plan 

6 incentivizes conversion of coal towards natural 

7 gas and nuclear over conversion of wind, solar, 

8 and more importantly, for our state, energy 

9 efficiency. It only lists energy efficiency as 

10 an option, not a mandate. Efficiency is a 

11 particular issue for Kentucky. We are far behind 

12 many other states when it comes to diversifying 

13 our energy portfolio. We have no renewable 

14 energy portfolio standards or energy efficiency 

15 resource standards.

16 Our dependency on coal has made us 

17 economically vulnerable. Coal mining in Kentucky 

18 has collapsed with the loss of 40 percent of the 

19 state's coal-mining jobs. Now they are less than 

20 1 percent statewide employment.

21 We need incentives to move to our next 

22 future. You need to help us get there. You need 

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1 to put out standards to put the pressure on our 

2 state legislators and regulators.

3 Thank you.

4 [Applause.]

5 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Boldman.

6 Ladies, before you leave, are there any 

7 questions?

8 [No audible response.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, thank you for 

10 your testimony. Thank you very much.

11 At this time, I would like to invite 

12 Vickie Terry and Amy Adams to the podium for 

13 testimony. Vickie Terry and Amy Adams.

14 Okay, we'll proceed. Good afternoon.

15 MS. TERRY: I have a little voice. I am 

16 Vickie Terry. V-i-c-k-i-e. Terry, T-e-r-r-y. I 

17 am from the Campbell-Claiborne county line in 

18 Tennessee where they are doing mountaintop 

19 removals.

20 I know this is about the air quality and 

21 stuff, so I'd like to start when I was in Ohio, 

22 young. My perception happened with a coal plant. 

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1 It was across the river, across the bridge. The 

2 gate over there was yellow. They have a big 

3 clock full of lights. You know, country girl, 

4 cornfields. So that was my perception of heaven.

5 In that same area, there was Armco Steel, 

6 and every time you'd go near Middletown, Ohio, 

7 you could smell it. I had asthma, and I'd lose 

8 my breath. I couldn't breathe and get near 

9 Middletown, Ohio, near that coal plant and steel 

10 mill.

11 Then my husband retired, and I moved to 

12 the mountains. Coal was still in my life. Now 

13 they are blowing up the mountains, and I don't 

14 care what they say. Tennessee changes the 

15 terminology, a word, a sentence, just to change 

16 it for their benefit. Office of Surface Mining 

17 is liars and crooks. I can tell you why I know 

18 this, but I only have 5 minutes. 

19 I am like desperate at this moment. They 

20 are doing mining all around me, the dynamite. 

21 There is health issues. I don't think you're 

22 aware that we have 50 more percent cancer rates, 

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1 60 percent more respiratory diseases. They are 

2 having a lot of issues with gallbladders.

3 And now let me tell you how this is 

4 affecting me. I can hear the heavy machinery 

5 behind my house now, where instead of hearing the 

6 birds. I live on a little ridge. I'm very 

7 lucky. I have the luxury of living on it. I 

8 have my own little ridge in the mountains, and 

9 it's beautiful. I love it like my family, and 

10 here I can hear this. Instead of the dew drops 

11 on the leaves and the birds in the morning, I am 

12 hearing the heavy equipment, and it is very 

13 disturbing the last few weeks.

14 My granddaughter is losing her 

15 gallbladder next month. She is 13. It just quit 

16 working. Her friend is 13, and in May, she lost 

17 her gallbladder. It just quit working. It was 

18 full of slurry stuff. The only thing they have 

19 in common besides their age and being friends is 

20 they live in the same community and have been 

21 playing in the water below the tipples where they 

22 clean the coal, before they put it on the trains.

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1 I could go on and on and on, but I am 

2 here to tell you this is affecting communities. 

3 I have seen whole communities disappear. I have 

4 seen people lose their homes, and I am scared to 

5 death about my grandchildren's health. One of my 

6 grandbabies, she's got rheumatoid arthritis and 

7 then went blind in one eye. Children's Hospital 

8 won't see her because she hasn't been diagnosed. 

9 They don't even know what's wrong with her. How 

10 do I know this pollution hasn't done this to my 

11 baby? We are scared we're losing her. She 

12 cannot even walk. She is 17 now. She has been 

13 going through this over 2 years. She can't even 

14 hardly walk.

15 Her name is Diamond, and she has lobbied 

16 for clean water protection. She has done so much 

17 to protect the mountains, and she can't even 

18 walk. She was going to go to college, and she 

19 got upset because she missed one day at school 

20 and made a B. And now she has given up, said, 

21 "I've missed so much school because I was going 

22 to the doctor. I can't go to college now." This 

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1 is affecting my home. This is affecting my 

2 children.

3 And this is not about just jobs and 

4 stuff. There can be jobs made with solar and 

5 wind, making the batteries storing it. We need 

6 sun. What about that cloudy day? That is where 

7 the batteries come in to store the energy. The 

8 only reason we are not going to solar and wind is 

9 because people are trying to figure out how to 

10 make a profit out of our electric. They have 

11 turned electric into a luxury that is making it 

12 almost impossible.

13 I mean, the bills are ridiculous. It's 

14 killing us, whole communities, and it's just 

15 outrageous. We don't know if they have -- we 

16 can't prove the carbon dioxide is causing the 

17 climate effect. 

18 Well, James Hansen -- talk to a NASA 

19 scientist. If he isn't reliable, who is? Who 

20 hired this top scientist in NASA? He seems 

21 pretty reliable to me, and he is against it.

22 I don't agree with your blocks. I want 

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1 you to be more aggressive and faster.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Ms. Terry, thank you 

3 sincerely. Thank you for your testimony.

4 MS. TERRY: Thank you.

5 MR. THOMPSON: Before you go, are there 

6 any questions for Ms. Terry?

7 [No audible response.]

8 MR. THOMPSON: Again, thank you for 

9 coming today.

10 MS. TERRY: I'm sorry for going long. 

11 Thank you.

12 [Applause.]

13 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. At this time, I 

14 would like to invite Maeve Howett and Kate 

15 McGregor Mosley to please come forward.

16 DR. HOWETT: Hi.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon.

18 DR. HOWETT: Good afternoon.

19 MR. THOMPSON: Hi. 

20 Starting with Ms. Howett.

21 DR. HOWETT: I am Dr. Maeve Howett, 

22 M-a-e-v-e, H-o-w-e-t-t.

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Please begin.

2 DR. HOWETT: Thank you. I appreciate 

3 this opportunity to talk about climate change. I 

4 am a Clinical Associate Professor at Emory 

5 University in the Nursing School. I am a 

6 pediatric nurse practitioner, and I go all around 

7 the country talking about children's health and 

8 how children are a more vulnerable population and 

9 what we need to do to make their lives better.

10 I have just come from a week talking 

11 about children's nutrition, and I teach this. I 

12 am convinced that the disparities that we see in 

13 health are directly related to the disparities in 

14 a child's environment, and there is nothing that 

15 working on children's nutrition, children's 

16 physical activity, children's increased education 

17 -- none of those things matter as long as the 

18 environment is unsafe for those kids. So there 

19 is no greater responsibility, I feel, for the EPA 

20 today than to stop dirty coal, whatever you can 

21 do.

22 I applaud these efforts, but I do feel as 

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1 though they are not strong enough. There should 

2 be no more investment in coal. It needs to stay 

3 in the ground. I have every confidence that the 

4 economy is creative and they will find a way to 

5 make jobs in clean and renewable sources of 

6 energy. That the science is unequivocal, it is 

7 actually killing kids -- respiratory disease, 

8 cardiovascular disease, neurotoxicity, cancers. 

9 We know there are epidemic numbers of brain 

10 tumors in children that we can't explain. We 

11 know that's epidemic numbers of autism, 

12 behavioral disorders that have not been seen I 

13 populations before, and I think it's directly 

14 related to the amount of pollution that kids are 

15 faced with. 

16 It may be related to what we do with the 

17 coal when it comes out of the ground, but there's 

18 also health effects for the coal burning, and we 

19 need to address those things in children's lives 

20 and fix them for them permanently.

21 So when we talk about protecting the 

22 environment and making it better, we are not 

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1 talking about protecting an environment for a 

2 polar bear. We are talking about a protecting an 

3 environment for your children and their 

4 grandchildren. Everything we do today has an 

5 effect for seven generations, and this is your 

6 most important work.

7 Thanks.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Dr. Howett. 

9 Thank you for your testimony.

10 Ms. Mosley?

11 REV. McGREGOR MOSLEY: Yes. Hi. I am 

12 Reverend Kate McGregor Mosley, K-a-t-e, 

13 M-c-G-r-e-g-o-r, M-o-s-l-e-y. 

14 Thank you for hearing my testimony today. 

15 I live here in Atlanta; in Decatur, Georgia. I 

16 am a mom of three children, and certainly I care 

17 about clean air issues and environmental policy 

18 for the sake of my children, but I come to you 

19 today to present a different angle because I'm a 

20 Presbyterian minister, and this is the place that 

21 I stand as I speak to you.

22 I have been a Presbyterian minister here 

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1 in Georgia for close to 10 years now, and really

2 specifically for the last 6 years, I have been 

3 working on environmental issues from a faith 

4 perspective, because faith and ecology are 

5 closely linked. They are tied together.

6 Right now, I am the interim Executive 

7 Director of Georgia Interfaith Power & Light, not 

8 Georgia Power, but GIPL, Georgia Interfaith Power 

9 & Light. We have been working for 10 years as a 

10 faith-based environmental organization across the 

11 state helping faith communities embrace 

12 environmental stewardship and sustainability as a 

13 witness to faith.

14 We have been active with congregations, 

15 mosques, synagogues, prayer houses, all of them 

16 to encourage the practice of environmental 

17 stewardship.

18 We focus largely on energy efficiency. 

19 That has been our most successful program to 

20 date, and that's what I want to speak to you 

21 about today, because it does connect directly to 

22 111(d) and the carbon pollution standards.

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1 I speak in favor of these carbon

2 pollution standards. Let me be clear about that. 

3 I am convinced this is sound policy that, quite 

4 frankly, should have been enacted long ago, and I 

5 say that because I know houses of worship who 

6 have been at this work of reducing their carbon 

7 footprint for the past several years, not because 

8 it is all the corporate rage, but because it is 

9 the right thing to do. They see it as a witness 

10 to their faith.

11 They have been eliminating pollution and 

12 waste within their facilities and related 

13 ministries for some time now. They have taken on 

14 the important work of incorporating energy 

15 efficiencies into every aspect of their 

16 congregational life.

17 GIPL has helped specifically 150 

18 congregations embrace energy efficiencies that 

19 have them saving on average 20 percent, but as 

20 much as 46 percent on their utility bills, and 

21 that is an average of $2,000 per congregation per 

22 year.

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1 More importantly, these congregations 

2 have collectively also saved close to 8 million 

3 pounds of carbon pollution from being released 

4 into the atmosphere. These are churches and 

5 synagogues. They have done this, doing this, 

6 because they know it's the right thing to do and 

7 it's the smart thing to do.

8 So do you all know what 8 million pounds 

9 of carbon pollution looks like? That is like 

10 removing the equivalent -- well, that is the 

11 amount of the equivalent to planting 100,000 

12 trees every year. It also means that 4 million 

13 pounds of coal did not have to be burned because 

14 of these energy efficiencies and to meet these 

15 energy needs. So if our houses of worship can do 

16 it, it's time the power plants step up and do it 

17 too.

18 Furthermore, when congregations save 

19 money on their utility bills, they put that money 

20 directly back into the communities they love to 

21 serve, they are called to serve. It is a win-win 

22 for us all. Those congregations have also hired 

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1 local companies to help them with the 

2 energy-efficient projects in their houses of 

3 worship, so their participation in the local 

4 economy has been very tangible.

5 Our organization has helped congregations 

6 pay for these energy efficiencies to close to 

7 $745,000 in grant monies that we have shared with 

8 these houses of worship, and that is just in the 

9 last 6 years through our grant program called 

10 "Power Wise." It's working. 

11 We estimate that close to 4 million 

12 kilowatt-hours have been saved through this one 

13 program in Georgia alone, so you can see I 

14 represent congregations that are passionate and 

15 know the benefits of energy efficiency and see 

16 its value, particularly within this Clean Power 

17 Plan. 

18 Therefore, we are seeking to hold the 

19 power plants accountable for the carbon pollution 

20 they produce as well as support this rule, so 

21 that this pollution is reduced by 30 percent in 

22 the years to come.

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1 Again, congregations across Georgia are 

2 doing this every day, and it is not required of 

3 them. No one passed a law saying churches should 

4 do this, but we know that the new Clean Power 

5 Plan is to increase energy efficiencies, and it 

6 will move us beyond this localized practice of 

7 household to household incorporating it or 

8 churches to churches. These new standards will 

9 normalize the practice of energy efficiency, and 

10 we all benefit from this. Our economy will grow. 

11 We will contribute to vital resilient 

12 communities.

13 As a person of deep faith, I believe 

14 strongly in the shared responsibility to care for 

15 what God has created as good and for us to all 

16 practice stewardship. We are in this together. 

17 We need these carbon pollution standards, and 

18 there are houses of worship who support this too.

19 Thank you for your time.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Reverend 

21 Mosley.

22 Ladies, before you step away, I do want 

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1 to ask, Are there any questions?

2 [No audible response.]

3 MR. THOMPSON: Are both of you planning 

4 to submit written comments?

5 REV. McGREGOR-MOSLEY: Yes.

6 MR. THOMPSON: Good. I would like to 

7 hear more about Power Wise.

8 REV. McGREGOR-MOSLEY: Great.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both.

10 DR. HOWETT: Thank you.

11 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your 

12 testimony.

13 At this time, I would like to invite Mike 

14 Migliaccio and Gretchen Dahlkemper -- and forgive 

15 me if I am mispronouncing the names -- up front 

16 for testimony.

17 [Pause.]

18 MR. THOMPSON: Gretchen Dahlkemper?

19 MS. DAHLKEMPER: That's me.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Oh, okay. Take your time.

21 Good afternoon to the both of you, and 

22 thank you for coming today. Please help me 

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1 pronounce your last name, sir.

2 MR. MIGLIACCIO: It's "Migliaccio."

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you. So if you will 

4 pronounce it again and spell it for the court 

5 reporter, that would be excellent.

6 MR. MIGLIACCIO: Very good. Michael 

7 Migliaccio, spelled M-i-c-h-a-e-l, 

8 M-i-g-l-i-a-c-c-i-o.

9 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. You may begin.

10 MR. MIGLIACCIO: Good afternoon. My name 

11 is Michael Migliaccio, and I am the Regional 

12 Business Development Manager for Johnson Controls 

13 here in Georgia. Johnson Controls is a global 

14 diversified technology and industrial leader with 

15 170,000 employees serving customers in more than 

16 150 countries. Our services include solutions to 

17 optimize energy efficiency in buildings. Our 

18 commitment to sustainability dates back to our 

19 roots in 1885 with the invention of the first 

20 electric thermostat.

21 Johnson Controls is a part of an industry 

22 that provides energy efficiency products and 

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1 services to building owners across multiple 

2 markets. Within our industry, we are referred to

3 as "energy services companies," or the acronym 

4 ESCO.

5 One of the compliance options under Rule 

6 111(d) is to support end-use energy efficiency by 

7 utilizing as a means to reduce energy 

8 consumption, thus, reducing greenhouse gas 

9 emissions, while creating local benefits in the 

10 form of additional jobs. We believe that 

11 efficiency offers an opportunity to create over 

12 300,000 new jobs, save consumers $100 billion per 

13 year in energy bills, and eliminate 600 million 

14 tons of CO2 emissions each year.

15 In addition to the utility-based energy 

16 efficiency programs, we urge that the energy 

17 efficiency building block should promote and 

18 account for energy efficiency initiatives taken 

19 on by building owners themselves.

20 Data from the Bloomberg New Energy 

21 Finance article entitled "Sustainable Energy in 

22 America Fact Book" shows that energy efficiency 

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1 through ESCO activities is substantial. In fact, 

2 there are about as much investment in end-use 

3 efficiency through ESCO activities as there are 

4 through utility programs.

5 The energy efficiency initiative that my 

6 industry provides is known as guaranteed energy

7 savings performance contracts. It is a 

8 procurement model available to federal, state, 

9 local government agencies, universities, 

10 elementary schools, and industry. Under this 

11 procurement model, building owners receive 

12 infrastructure replacement associated with 

13 energy-consuming equipment, such as lighting, 

14 heating, and cooling. The replacement of the 

15 older technology systems with new efficient 

16 systems creates the reduction in utility 

17 consumption, which translates into less need for 

18 generation, hence lowering GHG emissions.

19 Furthermore, what makes energy savings 

20 performance contracting an ideal method of 

21 end-use efficiency is that the reductions are 

22 measured, verified, and documented. These steps 

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1 are necessary in every performance contract as 

2 the ESCO must guarantee to the billing owner that 

3 the energy consumption will be achieved each year 

4 of the contract.

5 In this context, Johnson Controls 

6 recommends six policy principles for energy 

7 efficiency as a compliance tool. Number one, 

8 end-use energy efficiency should be available as 

9 a means of compliance.

10 Two, the EPA should provide guidance to 

11 states on presumptive, approvable energy 

12 efficiency provisions in compliance plans. The 

13 EPA should be explicit and not silent.

14 Number three, existing state utility 

15 programs should be recognized and scaled.

16 Four, mechanisms for creating private 

17 sector-delivered energy efficiency activities 

18 should be available, including crediting of sale 

19 of high-efficiency appliances, facility energy 

20 efficiency projects, and energy performance 

21 contracting.

22 Number five, energy efficiency can and 

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1 should be explicitly credit in both rate and 

2 mass-based compliance systems. Either system can 

3 work with the appropriate policy design.

4 Finally, number six, the EPA should be 

5 explicit about criteria used to approve energy 

6 efficiency elements of the state plans. Criteria 

7 should have environmental rigor, quantifiable, 

8 enforceable and sustainable, administrative ease, 

9 clear investment goals and management 

10 requirements, and adaptability with periodic 

11 review of state plans, with prospective 

12 adjustments, as needed.

13 Johnson Controls supports the EPA's 

14 consideration of energy efficiency as a 

15 compliance tool, and we appreciate the 

16 opportunity to make a statement today.

17 Thank you.

18 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your 

19 testimony.

20 Ms. Dahlkemper.

21 MS. DAHLKEMPER: Good morning. My name 

22 is Gretchen Dahlkemper, G-r-e-t-c-h-e-n, 

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1 D-a-h-l-k-e-m-p-e-r. And usually, it's my name 

2 they have a hard time pronouncing, so . . .

3 [Laughter.]

4 MS. DAHLKEMPER: Good morning. My name 

5 is Gretchen Dahlkemper, and I am the National 

6 Field Manager for Moms Clean Air Force. We are a 

7 force of over 340,000 members across the United 

8 States who banded together over 3 years to 

9 support your mercury and air toxic standards.

10 Because a lot of our members cannot be 

11 here today, since they are busy, busy moms, I 

12 brought signatures from our members all 

13 throughout the region and handprints from the 

14 tiniest of those who can't sign.

15 Today, I want to thank Administrator 

16 McCarthy and her agency for once again taking an 

17 important step and protecting America's children, 

18 including my own three, from the devastating 

19 effects of toxic air pollution.

20 Climate change is the greatest public 

21 health threat we face as a civilization. It is 

22 also the greatest challenge that I face as a 

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1 mother.

2 Children and other vulnerable populations 

3 worldwide are already suffering from the health 

4 effects of a changing climate. Without 

5 aggressive action to limit the air pollution that 

6 causes climate change, we will see increased 

7 suffering among children on a global scale.

8 To turn the tide of the coming public 

9 health catastrophe, we need prompt action to 

10 sharply limit carbon dioxide emissions, one of 

11 the major drivers of climate change. Power 

12 plants today currently account for 40 percent of 

13 our nation's carbon dioxide output.

14 In the weeks since the plan was proposed, 

15 thousands and thousands of moms have told EPA 

16 that we want aggressive limits on the carbon 

17 dioxide emissions that are fueling climate 

18 change. Many moms, however, like me, think that 

19 this Clean Power Plan does not go far enough in 

20 protecting our children.

21 EPA's goal proposed is to reduce 

22 emissions by 30 percent, and quite frankly, it 

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1 does not go far enough. Our children need 

2 protection now, and they need serious protection. 

3 We want stricter limits and today ask the EPA to 

4 move forward and finalize the rule that reduced 

5 carbon dioxide emissions to 40 percent below 2005 

6 emissions by 2020.

7 So why do I and other moms care about a 

8 640-page highly technical proposed rule on power 

9 plants? The answer is simple. Because our 

10 current path, it harms our kids.

11 I sympathize with the families who are 

12 worried about their jobs. I grew up actually in

13 Coal Country in western Pennsylvania. I 

14 understand the fear that comes with job 

15 uncertainty. However, I do not sympathize with 

16 an industry that has little to no regard for the 

17 health of my children. Just like the tobacco 

18 industry did decades ago, the fossil fuel 

19 industry continues to lie to the American people 

20 by refusing to admit that their product is 

21 directly responsible for deaths across the globe.

22 I am mom to three small children, two of 

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1 which suffer from chronic health conditions that 

2 are currently impacted by climate change.

3 Fiona is a feisty 3-year-old who loves to 

4 play outside. She is actually really good at 

5 soccer. I'm not just saying that. But she 

6 suffers from asthma, and I am no stranger to 

7 heading to the Children's Hospital in 

8 Philadelphia at midnight when she can't breathe.

9 Declan, my 1-year-old, suffers from a 

10 rare form of mass cell disease. His condition is 

11 aggravated by extended allergy seasons and 

12 extreme heat. His tiny little body can't handle 

13 being outside in the summer hot days, and the 

14 allergy seasons inflame sores all across his body 

15 that he can barely function with.

16 These are just a few of the stories of 

17 our children who are suffering from climate 

18 change and whose conditions will only get worse. 

19 If industry voices have their way and EPA's Clean 

20 Power Plan is weakened or scuttled, we can be 

21 sure that climate-related health impacts will 

22 continue.

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1 Heat-related illnesses, such as heat 

2 stroke and heat exhaustion, already the leading 

3 cause of weather-related deaths, will become even 

4 more common.

5 The air pollution that triggers asthma, 

6 like my Fiona suffers from, will worsen. That is 

7 because climate change makes air pollution worse, 

8 especially in urban area. One in 10 U.S. 

9 children are already suffering from asthma, and 

10 where I am from in Philadelphia, that number is 

11 almost one in four.

12 Changes in rainfall will increase the 

13 risk for serious floods in North America and the 

14 related injuries and infectious diseases that 

15 accompany major flooding. Droughts will become 

16 more common. Yields of food crops, including 

17 corn, soybeans, and rice, are already raising our 

18 grocery and pantry prices, and food shortages 

19 will exacerbate starvation conditions, especially 

20 in those nations where child malnutrition already 

21 affects almost half of the world's children.

22 As a mom, I simply cannot look away. The 

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1 scope of these problems will make the worst 

2 influenza epidemic we have ever known look like a 

3 case of the sniffles. That is why parents are 

4 coming together to protect our children and 

5 future generations from the health effects of 

6 climate change. They are coming here to testify 

7 to you today to ask you to take serious action.

8 Power plants are required to limit 

9 emissions of harmful industrial pollutants; 

10 mercury, the chemical precursors of 

11 asthma-producing ground-level ozone or smog. In 

12 the past few decades, such limits have paved the 

13 way for air quality improvements and health 

14 benefits from millions of children. It is past 

15 time to use the Clean Air Act to safeguard the 

16 health of our children by limiting the amount of 

17 carbon dioxide that power plants are allowed to 

18 emit.

19 Thank you.

20 [Applause.]

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you for your 

22 testimony. Thank you both.

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1 Are there any questions?

2 [No audible response.]

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both very much 

4 for your testimony.

5 Okay. At this time, I would like to 

6 invite Garry Harris and Dan Joranko to please 

7 come forward.

8 Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thanks for 

9 coming. 

10 Starting with you, Mr. Harris, could you 

11 state your name and spell it for the court 

12 reporter, and then begin your testimony.

13 MR. HARRIS: Okay, great. Good 

14 afternoon. Garry Harris. G-a-r-r-y. Last name 

15 is Harris, H-a-r-r-i-s.

16 Good afternoon, and thanks a lot for 

17 having me. My name is Garry Harris. I am the 

18 President and CEO of HTS Enterprises. We are 

19 energy engineering, policy research, and 

20 education. Also, I am the Managing Director for 

21 the Center for Sustainable Communities. We make 

22 communities green, clean, healthier, and safer. 

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1 Also, I am the Managing Director for Emerald 

2 Cities Metro Atlanta. We are all about good, 

3 clean, high-quality jobs.

4 Last February, I was returning from 

5 Florida where we had just taken some kids on a 

6 wonderful adventure at a naval submarine base. 

7 As you can imagine, they were so excited to have 

8 made the trip from isolated Sapelo Island to the 

9 naval facility, but for me, it was nearly a 

10 9-hour trip -- a 9-hour trip -- and I was so 

11 tired. But little did I know that it would be an 

12 even longer day for me.

13 As I neared Atlanta, I noticed that the 

14 skies darkened, and that the snow began to fall 

15 on that day. It snowed harder and harder and 

16 then even harder, and then everything around me 

17 came to a halt. I saw large trucks overturned, 

18 blocking vital off ramps. I saw family after 

19 family after family with no food, no water, no 

20 access emergency are, stuck in their vehicles for 

21 hours. It was a climate-induced severe weather 

22 nightmare.

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1 I had made it to an off ramp where I 

2 worked for several hours to free a stuck MARTA 

3 bus. We used that bus as a rescue boat, picking 

4 up stranded elderly, handicapped, and 

5 transit-dependent, vulnerable residents, 

6 transporting them to shelter. Children were 

7 forced to sleep in schools all night on that day. 

8 Businesses were forced to close. Thousands of 

9 flights were cancelled.

10 I am certain that everyone in this room 

11 remembers that day, exactly what they were doing 

12 and where they were. It affected us all. It is 

13 a rare occurrence for extreme weather to hit 

14 Atlanta, but with climate change, that frequency 

15 and the magnitude of that occurrence is going to 

16 increase. Both the frequency and occurrence of 

17 severe weather would dramatically increase, 

18 again, due to climate change, making scenarios 

19 like this one more and more and more common.

20 Therefore, we must be prepared. We must 

21 act now, and we must make our communities more 

22 resilient. We must learn to adapt, and most of 

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1 all, we must address root causes.

2 Having worked at nearly 20 utilities and 

3 over 80 power stations, root-cause analysis is 

4 fundamental to solving fundamental overall 

5 problems to identify proven corrective action. 

6 Power plant emissions is a proven primary root 

7 cause of climate change.

8 The clean power rule and its requirements 

9 adequately address the primary root cause to 

10 solve the fundamental overall problem. We must 

11 act now. We must all do our part. Our 

12 organization has already done several things. 

13 For example, for Emerald Cities, we formed a 

14 collaborative of experts and regional leaders 

15 that made recommendations not only to the Mayor 

16 but the Governor, some 19 of them, on how to make 

17 our community more resilient. We are creating 

18 climate change action plans to address vulnerable 

19 populations. We are building resilient 

20 infrastructure. We are improving coordinating 

21 and communications. We found those to be our top 

22 priority recommendations.

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1 We also submitted an application with the 

2 city to establish an Office of Resilience, so 

3 that we are better prepared for these extreme 

4 weather emergencies, with an emphasis on climate 

5 and weather mitigation.

6 We are conducting events to create a 

7 dialogue and sensitivity on climate issues. We 

8 took community leaders on tours of the Weather 

9 Channel and also the National Weather Service 

10 seminars. We even had a global conference here 

11 on weather, with a focus on severe weather and 

12 its interaction and its impacts on 

13 infrastructure.

14 We have done a lot, and we have even, 

15 through the Better Building Challenge, audited 

16 seven buildings here and found millions of 

17 gallons of savings in water and energy and also 

18 CO2 emissions, as well. So we are proud of our 

19 record, but everybody needs to do their part. We 

20 all have to address root causes.

21 On a national level, Emerald Cities and 

22 the Center for Sustainable Communities 

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1 participate in national forums on climate and 

2 energy, creating appropriate policy plans, among 

3 other things.

4 We are also conducting a research project 

5 to determine if we were to implement this rule, 

6 what are the high-quality jobs that we can 

7 implement.

8 We have also, as we started with, took 

9 youth on trips. We are also having a Green Apple 

10 Service Day where we are going to invite about 30 

11 schools in and teach kids all about climate and 

12 weather and those things.

13 The time to act is now, so please 

14 implement the clean power rule.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Harris.

16 Mr. Joranko.

17 DR. JORANKO: Yes. Dr. Daniel Joranko, 

18 D-a-n-i-e-l, J-o-r-a-n-k-o.

19 I am Dan Joranko, President of Tennessee 

20 Interfaith Power & Light, a statewide network of 

21 faith groups, a spiritual response to the moral 

22 challenges of climate change. I also teach at 

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1 Vanderbilt Divinity School, and I preach on 

2 numerous occasions at United Methodist Churches.

3 We as a nation now understand that our 

4 burning massive amounts of fossil fuel has caused 

5 climate change. We are a generation causing 

6 climate pollution, but it's our children and 

7 their children who will suffer the burdens of the 

8 increasing weather extremes of unabated climate 

9 change, increased hunger, homelessness, a decline 

10 in public health, and the changing of the natural 

11 world that will no longer support their 

12 well-being as it has ours.

13 Through our inaction, we are imposing the 

14 costs of our behavior on our children and upon 

15 the most vulnerable. Climate change is 

16 fundamentally a moral issue. The core moral 

17 principle embodied within the climate change 

18 challenge is that we should not harm others for 

19 our own perceived self-benefit.

20 Our national moral response to climate 

21 change turns on our willingness to act on climate 

22 change, even if we must risk certain perceived 

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1 benefits from carbon pollution. While many would 

2 agree that our children should not bear the 

3 burden of our private gain, as a nation we still 

4 have yet to determine what it is worth to us to 

5 avoid future generations suffering from the 

6 consequences of our own behavior.

7 The religious traditions represented in 

8 Tennessee Interfaith Power & Light teach us that 

9 we have special responsibilities to be stewards 

10 of creation and protect the sanctity of the 

11 natural world. These traditions can call on us 

12 to make sacrifices to fulfill our moral duties.

13 The small but real chance exists that 

14 unabated pollution, carbon pollution, will cause 

15 an utter climate catastrophe that risks 

16 ecological collapse and untold human suffering. 

17 We believe we must avoid a climate catastrophe 

18 that might put at risk our very survival. The 

19 time to think about the future is upon us.

20 We as a society must acknowledge the 

21 moral issues associated with climate change and 

22 the need for difficult and perhaps uncomfortable 

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1 decisions. We must reduce carbon pollution to 

2 safe levels. We can work together to redeem 

3 ourselves for the sake of our children. Through 

4 our actions of fulfilling our moral 

5 responsibilities, we can avoid putting our 

6 children in harm's way. Our children and their 

7 children will look back upon us with gratitude 

8 for what we did to abate climate pollution.

9 We can uphold the sanctity of the natural 

10 world through learning how to live with it 

11 harmoniously. By keeping in mind those living 

12 today and in the future, the most vulnerable here 

13 within our community and those around the globe, 

14 we can participate in the collective moral 

15 response to climate change.

16 Adopting national limits on carbon 

17 pollution of the EPA Clean Power Plan is a 

18 critical first step in abating our carbon 

19 pollution. Tennessee Interfaith Power & Light 

20 agrees with the EPA that the plan will lead to 

21 climate and health benefits, outweighing what we 

22 as a nation risk in perceived benefits. Our own 

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1 generation can benefit from being on a healthier 

2 and more stable footing.

3 We as a nation already know how to reduce 

4 our carbon pollution, methods the EPA has already 

5 presented the states as options to use within 

6 their State Implementation Plans. Tennessee 

7 Interfaith Power & Light upholds the vision of 

8 our generation accepting the moral 

9 responsibilities of our actions and determining 

10 to do the right thing, something that we already 

11 know in our hearts to be true.

12 Thank you for the opportunity to testify.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Dr. Joranko, 

14 and thank you, Mr. Harris.

15 Are there any questions?

16 [No audible response.]

17 MR. THOMPSON: Again, gentlemen, thank 

18 you very much.

19 At this time, I would like to invite 

20 Patricia Williams and Anna Jane Joyner to please 

21 come forward.

22 [Pause.]

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Hi. How are you?

2 MS. JOYNER: Good. How are you doing?

3 MR. THOMPSON: Great. Thanks.

4 Good afternoon to both of you, and thanks 

5 for coming. I would like to start with Ms. 

6 Williams.

7 DR. WILLIAMS: Thank you for this 

8 opportunity to speak. I am Dr. Patricia Anne 

9 Williams. That's P-a-t-r-i-c-i-a, A-n-n-e, 

10 Williams, W-i-l-l-i-a-m-s. I am a Doctor of 

11 Education. I am a member of the Green Friends 

12 Group of Atlanta Friends Meeting, a member of the 

13 Sierra Club Centennial Group in Marietta, an 

14 active member of the Climate Change Lobby, a 

15 member of Quaker Earthquake Witness, and under 

16 all of this, I am the daughter of a forester dad 

17 who took me in the woods with him as a small 

18 child. I am a longtime proponent of health for 

19 both myself and others.

20 Several years ago, I was evincing 

21 symptoms of deep fatigue. I was pushing myself 

22 to do everything I was doing. At the suggestion 

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1 of my medical doctor, I underwent a standard test 

2 of toxic metals in my bloodstream. When the 

3 results came in, I felt frightened, very 

4 frightened, because I had toxic levels of these 

5 elements -- tin, bismuth, silver, aluminum, and 

6 mercury -- in my blood stream and body.

7 I immediately began chelation therapy 

8 with the use of intravenous EDTA -- that is 

9 E-D-T-A -- which dripped in my bloodstream at one 

10 sitting for 3 or 4 hours.

11 After about eight treatments of EDTA and 

12 being retested, new toxic metals appeared. These 

13 were titanium and nickel, along with a much 

14 greater increase in aluminum. The medical doctor 

15 explained to me that the amount of titanium and 

16 aluminum had been masked by the silver, and once 

17 the silver had been extracted from my body, the 

18 titanium and aluminum showed up at their true 

19 toxic level.

20 Several years after having undergone more 

21 EDTA intravenous treatment, lead and mercury 

22 appeared in the test results, as well as thallium 

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1 and arsenic. It was explained that these could 

2 have been masked by the former high amounts of 

3 aluminum. I continued with the EDTA treatments 

4 and am still in treatment.

5 When I was tested in April 2013, I was 

6 extremely high in antimony, mercury, and 

7 moderately high in arsenic, cesium, lead, nickel, 

8 and thallium. What were the sources or are the 

9 sources of these toxic metals in my body?

10 My reading in medical journals and 

11 various health writings indicated that arsenic 

12 could have come from non-organic chicken. Other 

13 toxic metals could have come from non-organic 

14 coffee beans. Lead is found in some lipsticks 

15 and some types of gas for vehicles. I had all of 

16 the mercury extracted from the fillings in my 

17 teeth, but mercury is also found in fish. The 

18 nickel could have come from the particulates of

19 diesel fuel. Thallium is typically found in 

20 airborne plumes from lead and zinc smelting.

21 Continuing the explore the possible 

22 source of these toxic metals, I read a press 

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1 release in January 2013 to the effect that there 

2 was to be an installation of filters on two of 

3 the smokestacks at a coal-fired 

4 electricity-producing plant north of Atlanta. I 

5 also found a study published in the Journal of 

6 Mood Disorders stating that the presence of 

7 coal-fired electricity plants can correlate with 

8 airborne levels of nickel, mercury, lead, 

9 chromium, cadmium, beryllium, and arsenic.

10 The upshot of my efforts to rid my body 

11 of these toxins is that I am continuing with EDTA 

12 treatments and at the same time, I am continuing 

13 to drive in Atlanta's traffic. I reduced the 

14 amount of hair dye, which could have contained 

15 some toxic metals, and I have changed to safe 

16 lipsticks. However, I continue to struggle with 

17 fatigue.

18 Over a 30-year period of visiting my 

19 parents at their island home in the marshes of 

20 Georgia near Midway, I would notice that I felt 

21 more energetic after I had been there for as 

22 little as 2 days. I wasn't surprised when a 

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1 recent finding of the American Lung Association 

2 indicated that the coastal area of Midway, 

3 Georgia, had the cleanest air in the entire 

4 state. 

5 I feel deeply concerned also about those 

6 school children I have known throughout my career 

7 as a school librarian who bring nebulizers to 

8 school to ward off asthma attacks. 

9 I feel grateful for this opportunity to 

10 support the EPA in its long-term efforts to

11 develop clean power, so to make this area free of 

12 carbon-based fuels.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Dr. Williams.

14 Ms. Joyner.

15 MS. JOYNER: I am Anna Jane Joyner. 

16 That's A-n-n-a, J-a-n-e, J-o-y-n-e-r.

17 As a Christian woman and a millennial, I 

18 believe that climate change is the greatest 

19 challenge and story of our time, but I also 

20 believe that we can be the heroes of this story, 

21 and I think you all play a big part of that.

22 I was born in Jackson, Mississippi. I 

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1 spent every summer at my mother's family home on 

2 the Gulf Coast of Alabama. I was raised in 

3 western North Carolina in the Blue Ridge 

4 Mountains and live there today, went to college 

5 at UNC-Chapel Hill, and have spent the vast 

6 majority of my life in the Southeast.

7 These days, I am the Coordinator of the 

8 Creation Care Alliance of Western North Carolina, 

9 a network of clergy, lay leaders, and about 40 

10 congregations working together to protect God's 

11 creation.

12 The Creation Care Alliance of Western 

13 North Carolina believes that we are called to be 

14 good stewards of our planet, God's magnificent 

15 creation, and to love and protect our neighbors, 

16 and that there's nothing we could be doing more 

17 to love and protect our neighbors than combatting 

18 catastrophic climate change, the biggest 

19 challenge on our planet today.

20 We believe that climate change isn't a 

21 political issue, though it has unfortunately been 

22 politicized. It is a moral issue and, therefore, 

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1 a spiritual one.

2 I got involved in this work because my 

3 father is the pastor of a large evangelical 

4 church just outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. 

5 His ministry actually owns the former PTL 

6 property of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker fame, so I 

7 grew up in the church.

8 I became passionate about environmental 

9 justice in college after learning about how the 

10 terrible practice of mountaintop removal coal 

11 mining is destroying whole mountain ranges in 

12 communities in Central Appalachia, not too far 

13 from my beloved Blue Ridge Mountains and also not 

14 too far from where my husband grew up in eastern 

15 Kentucky, who is here with me today. I have been 

16 working at the intersection of faith and climate 

17 and environmental justice ever since. That was 

18 about 7 years ago.

19 Recently, I had the surreal experience of 

20 being featured in an Emmy-nominated Showtime 

21 series on climate change called "Years of Living 

22 Dangerously." The producers, Hollywood legends 

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1 Jerry Weintraub, James Cameron, and Arnold 

2 Schwarzenegger, believe that climate change is 

3 the greatest challenge and story of our time, so 

4 they rallied topnotch Hollywood cinematographers 

5 and celebrity correspondents to tell the stories 

6 of ordinary people experiencing the extraordinary 

7 impacts of climate change and the stories of 

8 those fighting it.

9 "Years of Living Dangerously" featured my 

10 story, appropriately called "Preacher's 

11 Daughter," in Episode 4, because they were 

12 inspired by my work with the Creation Care 

13 Alliance and what we are doing with clergy and 

14 churches on the Asheville Beyond Coal Campaign. 

15 The Asheville Coal plant is the largest local 

16 source of not only carbon pollution but also air 

17 and water pollution in our region. Needless to 

18 say, destroying nearby Appalachian Mountains, our 

19 beloved French Broad River, God's magnificent 

20 creation, and the climate we all depend on to 

21 survive just to turn on our lights does not sit 

22 well with many of the clergy, congregations, and 

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1 people of faith in western North Carolina. So we 

2 are working hard to retire the plants and move 

3 our region to clean, renewable, just energy. 

4 When we do, it will be the equivalent of taking 

5 500,000 cars off the road.

6 Before the "Years of Living Dangerously" 

7 project, I understood climate change from an 

8 intellectual, scientific, and even moral 

9 perspective, but it was a few months into the 

10 filming that I began to understand it on a deeply 

11 personal level. For weeks, I had immersed myself 

12 in all the latest climate research, reading about 

13 how climate change is harming and will harm 

14 millions, if not billions of people all around 

15 the world, and it is well documented that we are 

16 already seeing hunger from more pervasive 

17 droughts, displacement, strife, loss of life 

18 caused by flooding, mudslides, sea-level rise, 

19 wildfires, and worsening storms. We are also 

20 seeing the loss of climate-dependent livelihoods 

21 in industries such as tourism, seafood, and 

22 farming. The list goes on and on.

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1 But I also began to feel this very 

2 visceral sensation of loss. As Author Zadie 

3 Smith said, "In the end, the only thing that 

4 could create the necessary traction in our minds 

5 was the intimate loss of the things we loved." 

6 Climate change is threatening the people, places, 

7 and things that I love.

8 From my morning cup of coffee with my 

9 husband to my evening glass of wine on the porch 

10 with dear friends, from my occasional ski 

11 vacations to those spent frolicking on my 

12 family's beach haven at Perdido Beach, Alabama, 

13 from catching the Jazz Festival in New Orleans to 

14 hiking in the autumn glory of the Blue Ridge 

15 Mountains to the simplicity of a back yard tomato 

16 garden, climate change is messing with our 

17 everyday lives, taking away what makes our days 

18 special and meaningful and allows us to feel 

19 connected to the world and to each other. It is 

20 and will steal those freedoms and far more basic 

21 ones -- clean water, access to food, a place to 

22 call home -- if, a big "if," we don't do 

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1 something about it now.

2 I, too, believe that climate change is 

3 the biggest challenge and story of our time, but 

4 while it is a story of loss, it is also a story 

5 of possibility and maybe even a story of hope and 

6 healing, as well.

7 We can be the heroes of this story, but 

8 we need you to lead this charge and to pass 

9 strong, effective, carbon protection rules, for 

10 as we all know, when the United States leads, the 

11 world follows.

12 [Applause.]

13 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Joyner and 

14 Dr. Williams, as well. Are there any questions?

15 [No audible response.]

16 MR. THOMPSON: Ladies, thank you both for 

17 your testimony. Thank you very much.

18 At this time, I would like to invite 

19 Barbara Paul and David Theiss, T-h-e-i-s-s. 

20 Would you please come forward.

21 [Pause.]

22 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon. Good 

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1 afternoon to the both of you. Thanks for coming.

2 Starting with you, Ms. Paul, if you would 

3 state your name and spell it for the court 

4 reporter, and then begin your testimony.

5 MS. PAUL: Okay. My name is Barbara, S 

6 as in Sam, Paul, P-a-u-l.

7 Thank you for coming to Atlanta and for 

8 allowing members of the public, such as myself, 

9 to comment on the administration's Climate Action 

10 Plan and to share a few thoughts. I am going to 

11 submit other comments, but just --

12 MR. THOMPSON: Sure. Good.

13 MS. PAUL: I commend the President and 

14 the EPA for your willingness to tackle the hard 

15 issue of frequent and intense climate disruption 

16 that we are experiencing around the world and 

17 also experiencing firsthand here in Georgia.

18 Attempts to seek common-sense solutions 

19 give me hope that the EPA is taking its 

20 responsibility to protect the health of our 

21 citizens seriously and putting our children's 

22 futures first before protecting the pocketbooks 

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1 of polluting industries and enormous power 

2 providers.

3 Thank you.

4 Speaking on behalf of my, well, 

5 grandmothers, as myself, or my grandson and 

6 granddaughter, ages 9 months and 3 years 

7 respectively, whose preschool playground sits on 

8 Martin Luther King Drive, right down the road 

9 near our State Capitol, thank you for providing 

10 at least a plan for action that may alleviate the 

11 constant deep chest coughs that they have 

12 developed and the potential asthma that could 

13 eventually keep their active growing bodies 

14 indoors on the all-too-familiar Code Orange Alert 

15 Days.

16 I would like to just suggest one thing 

17 for your consideration as you move forward. No 

18 matter what solutions are agreed to in curbing 

19 pollution and getting climate disruption under 

20 control, I suggest that you look at every 

21 proposal and apply a cradle-to-grave criteria.

22 How do we start, and how do we end? From 

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1 build-up to clean-up, we must begin to honor the 

2 worthiness of having a safer society that invests 

3 not only in an innovative brain trust to provide 

4 innovative cutting-edge power and development of 

5 new energy sources but also a plan for each 

6 application's waste, its mess, our legacy. We 

7 need to uphold clean-up jobs as worthy, 

8 honorable, and profitable in order to provide for 

9 a healthier future for all.

10 This is just one reason that I cannot 

11 speak in favor of the development of more nuclear 

12 power plants which have not been able to provide 

13 solutions to the massive nuclear waste problem 

14 that we've had for over 65 years. If we have not 

15 been able to deal with the back end of the 

16 nuclear fuel cycle in all that time, why would we 

17 suggest that this dangerous, dirty, and damned 

18 expensive -- excuse me -- form of energy be a 

19 serious consideration in the Climate Action Plan.

20 On the other hand, if all energy 

21 providers can provide a viable end game for their 

22 energy source, including a safe disposal and/or 

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1 storage of their industry's waste and all the 

2 byproducts, they should be active and welcome 

3 stakeholders in the Climate Action Plan. If they 

4 cannot, I implore you to take them off the 

5 drawing board.

6 We teach, ask, and even demand that our 

7 children clean up their toys and their mess 

8 before they move on to their next frontier. 

9 Let's agree to apply the same protective and 

10 instructive guidelines, even with love, to all 

11 energy industries, especially those that are just 

12 being imagined.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Paul.

15 Sir, please state your name and spell it.

16 MR. THEISS: My name is David Theiss. It 

17 is T-h-e-i-s-s.

18 I am Mayor David Theiss of Ellaville, 

19 Georgia. Ellaville is a unique community with a 

20 blend of small-town hospitality and large-city 

21 conveniences. People can walk from their houses 

22 and shop for all their daily needs for food, 

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1 gifts, hardware, clothing, and do their banking. 

2 It is a place where local business owners still 

3 greet you by name and family. Faith and 

4 community involvement is not a thing of the past. 

5 That's from our website.

6 And if you all don't like the air up here 

7 in Atlanta, you're welcome to come down to ours, 

8 because we can breathe quite freely.

9 Ellaville is one of many public power 

10 communities in Georgia. Our community's electric 

11 department provides electricity at retail to our 

12 homes, businesses, and schools. Ellaville does 

13 not generate its own electricity. We receive our 

14 electric supply from Municipal Electric Authority 

15 of Georgia, also known as MEAG Power or just 

16 MEAG. MEAG is a not-for-profit entity 

17 established under Georgia's statutes that 

18 provides electricity at wholesale to most of 

19 Georgia's public power communities.

20 More than half of the electricity 

21 supplied to us by MEAG is emissions-free, 

22 generated from nuclear and hydropower sources, 

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1 and we will be getting additional emissions-free 

2 electricity in the near future from participation 

3 in the Plant Vogtle nuclear project, satisfying 

4 our needs for many years to come. 

5 We are very concerned with the U.S. 

6 Environmental Protection Agency's proposal for 

7 carbon dioxide emission regulations. These 

8 proposed regulations appear to go far beyond what 

9 the federal Clean Air Act actually requires and 

10 will adversely affect our low- and fixed-income 

11 citizens. The very clean fossil fuel-generating 

12 units that supply part of our community's 

13 electricity would need to change their levels of 

14 output, regardless of cost and reliability 

15 effects. The existing and new nuclear-generated 

16 electricity that supplies Ellaville would come 

17 under EPA's regulatory umbrella, even though 

18 there's no emissions.

19 Ellaville would have to acquire new 

20 renewable electricity sources that we clearly 

21 don't need, and Ellaville's ratepayers would bear 

22 the cost of this superfluous wind and solar power 

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1 generation that is much more expensive than what 

2 we already have.

3 Ellaville's retail electric customers 

4 would have to meet new energy efficiency 

5 requirements that accelerate in stringency year 

6 by year. 

7 We urge EPA to drop its current proposal 

8 and to do what the Clean Air Act actually calls 

9 for; that is, to have Georgia and other states 

10 carefully review what could be economically done 

11 to improve energy efficiency at individual 

12 fossil-generating units on a case-by-case basis. 

13 That is something I believe we can all support.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mayor Theiss.

16 I would like to ask, What is the 

17 population down in Ellaville?

18 MR. THEISS: It is 1,840.

19 MR. THOMPSON: Are there any questions, 

20 additional questions?

21 [No audible response.]

22 MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you. Thank 

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1 you both for your testimony.

2 MS. PAUL: You're welcome.

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much.

4 At this time, I would like to invite 

5 Russell Oliver and Mickey McCoy to please come 

6 forward.

7 [Pause.]

8 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, gentlemen, 

9 and thanks for coming.

10 Starting with you, Mr. Oliver, could you 

11 state your name and spell it for the court 

12 reporter, and begin your testimony.

13 MR. OLIVER: My name is Russell, 

14 R-u-s-s-e-l-l, and Oliver, O-l-i-v-e-r.

15 I live in Hazard, Kentucky. I live in 

16 eastern Kentucky where mountaintop removal and 

17 strip mining is all around me. We need stronger 

18 regulations on coal-fueled power plants. 

19 Stronger regulations would encourage the gradual 

20 elimination of coal and encourage alternate 

21 energy which would decrease the need for 

22 mountaintop-removal coal and strip-mining coal.

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1 According to recent health surveys, heavy 

2 strip-mining communities are among the 

3 unhealthiest places to live in the United States. 

4 Strip mining is very destructive to unborn babies 

5 who have a higher rate of mental retardation and 

6 other health problems. Many people's homes are 

7 destroyed by flooding related to mountaintop 

8 removal mining and other forms of strip mining.

9 Areas of mountaintop removal mining and 

10 strip mining have among the highest levels of 

11 unemployment and poverty. Stricter coal-fueled 

12 power plant regulations would encourage alternate 

13 energy in eastern Kentucky besides coal, and more 

14 jobs would result in eastern Kentucky. There are 

15 more jobs in solar and wind energy in the United 

16 States than all the combined mining jobs in the 

17 United States.

18 An increasing number of coal miners, both 

19 surface miners and deep miners, are getting black 

20 lung and silicosis caused by rock dust. A lot of 

21 miners have lost their jobs. A decrease in coal 

22 power plants would increase alternate-energy jobs 

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1 to replace coal jobs, and alternate-energy jobs 

2 would be better for workers' health and provide 

3 steady long-term work, unlike the boom-and-bust 

4 of the coal industry.

5 Water pollution from coal strip mining 

6 carries the heavy metals and other contaminates 

7 of the drinking water downstream from eastern 

8 Kentucky to Louisville, Kentucky; Louisville, 

9 Kentucky, Cincinnati, Ohio; and all the way down 

10 the Mississippi River where it harms the fishing 

11 industry in the Gulf of Mexico. Alternate energy 

12 such as solar and wind would not pollute the 

13 water like strip mining. We need stronger 

14 coal-fueled power plant regulation to discourage 

15 using coal and encourage environmentally friendly 

16 alternate energy.

17 Coal is the main source of global 

18 warming. We need stronger regulations to 

19 discourage the pollution of coal and use more 

20 alternate energy. As coal production and the 

21 number of coal miners decrease, the subsidies for 

22 alternate energy should increase.

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1 All the glaciers of North America are in 

2 a state of retreating. The observed retreat has 

3 increased rapidly since approximately 1980, and 

4 overall, each decade since has seen greater 

5 retreats than the preceding ones. The 

6 long-feared collapse of a portion of the West 

7 Antarctic ice sheet is underway and irreversible. 

8 The Iceland ice sheet, the northeastern part, is 

9 losing 10 billion tons of ice per year for the 

10 last decade, resulting in the rise of sea water. 

11 Cities like Miami, Florida; New York City; and 

12 Norfolk, Virginia will have future flooding 

13 problems.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Oliver, could you just 

15 move the mic just a little closer to you, sir?

16 MR. OLIVER: Okay.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you very much.

18 MR. OLIVER: Some scientists believe that 

19 an increase in earthquakes will result from the 

20 decrease in weight of melting glaciers. Glacier 

21 expert Jason Box said coal-fired plants in Europe 

22 and China have sent an unexpected thick layer of 

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1 soot over the Arctic region last summer, which 

2 settled onto Greenland's vast frozen interior, 

3 increasing the amount of sunlight the ice and 

4 snow absorb, which in turn accelerates the 

5 melting.

6 According to NASA, Greenland and 

7 Antarctica are losing three times as much ice 

8 each year as they did in the 1990s. The Arctic 

9 is warming faster than any place on Earth.

10 Fossil-fueled power plants are 

11 contributing to melting of glaciers in the United 

12 States and the rest of the world's glaciers. We 

13 need stronger fossil-fueled power plant 

14 regulations and more alternate energy.

15 The heating of the oceans from global 

16 warming makes hurricanes, cyclones, and typhoons 

17 more intense and evaporates around 2 trillion 

18 gallons of additional water into the skies above 

19 the United States, resulting in record-breaking 

20 downpours all over the world and also causing 

21 mudslides.

22 Sea waters are 30 percent more acid than 

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1 four decades ago and causing problems for the 

2 marine food chain on the ocean bottom. Large 

3 number of species are becoming extinct in the 

4 oceans.

5 Dirty coal pollution near coal power 

6 plants cause bronchitis, asthma, and cancer. I 

7 have talked to young people who live near a coal 

8 power plant, and they have suffered health 

9 problems, and they blame the coal power plants 

10 for their health problems.

11 A product of burning coal is coal ash 

12 with all its health and environmental problems.

13 Alternate and decreasing of the 

14 dependence on coal would solve many of the health 

15 and environmental problems. The price of solar 

16 panels has fallen 90 percent in a few decades, 

17 and it won't be easy to shift our economy off of 

18 coal, gas, and oil. Germany on a sunny day can 

19 generate half of its power from solar panels. 

20 Texas makes a third of its energy from wind. 

21 Kentucky gets more sunlight than Germany.

22 Some analysts in Germany believe by 2020 

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1 that 50 percent of its electricity will be from 

2 wind and solar. With increased to alternate 

3 energy and stronger regulations on fossil fuels, 

4 we can stop our heavy reliance on fossil fuels, 

5 which are the major contributors to global 

6 warming.

7 As a result of global warming, 100 

8 percent of California is in a drought, with an 

9 increase in fires and mudslides. California 

10 produces much of the U.S. food and crop 

11 reduction, which will result in higher prices at 

12 the super market and possible shortage of food. 

13 Governor Brown is even discussing water plants to 

14 convert seawater to freshwater, which is very 

15 expensive. 

16 Increases in storms like Hurricane Sandy 

17 and a recent tornado in New York State that 

18 Governor Cuomo said that part of New York State 

19 had never had a tornado in that area.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Okay, Mr. Oliver. I'm 

21 sorry. I am going to have to -- unless you can 

22 do it in 15 seconds.

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1 MR. OLIVER: In eastern Kentucky, surface 

2 coal is greatly depleted and deep-mining coal is 

3 greatly depleted. The coal is rapidly running 

4 out. We need alternate energy to replace coal. 

5 Alternate energy supplies more jobs than mining.

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, sir, and we 

7 would also welcome written comments from you, as 

8 well, if you like to submit them out front.

9 MR. OLIVER: Okay.

10 MR. THOMPSON: Just sit tight for now. 

11 Thank you.

12 Mr. McCoy.

13 MR. McCOY: Can you hear me, sir?

14 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir.

15 MR. McCOY: I am Mickey McCoy. That's 

16 M-i-c-k-e-y, and McCoy as in the victor of the 

17 Hatfield-McCoy feud.

18 [Laughter.]

19 MR. McCOY: That's M-c-C-o-y.

20 I am Mickey McCoy from Inez, Kentucky, 

21 home of the Martin County toxic sludge flood, an 

22 event that the United States Environmental 

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1 Protection Agency once labeled the worst 

2 ecological disaster east of the Mississippi 

3 River.

4 Now, on October the 11th in 2000, 308 

5 million gallons of toxic sludge burst from the 

6 bottom of a coal waste impoundment and flooded 

7 our community. Our creeks and rivers overflowed 

8 their banks with black slow-moving lava-like 

9 toxic waste and went into Ohio and on down to 

10 Mississippi.

11 There were no immediate human deaths, but 

12 one would have to be a damn fool to imagine we 

13 suffered no health hazards from that toxic waste 

14 which entered our public water system, by the 

15 way.

16 Now, if there are people in this hall 

17 that haven't heard of the Martin County toxic 

18 sludge flood, you are not alone. Those of us 

19 from Appalachia know damn well why we are 

20 supposed to be quiet about such negative 

21 coal-related events happening in our home. The 

22 coal industry and its powerful lobby demand that 

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1 all hill folk follow suit alongside the local, 

2 state, and national elected leaders and the 

3 hometown media sources and alleged protective 

4 agencies from coal-producing states and become 

5 Friends of Coal.

6 Friends of Coal is a very successful 

7 campaign, using bumper stickers and vehicle 

8 license plates, along with print and media 

9 broadcast propaganda to rally residents as well 

10 as those living outside the mountains into 

11 believing to regulate any regulation, to make 

12 bomb harvesting of coal and the burning of coal 

13 more expensive or troublesome for the coal 

14 brokers in America amounts to a war on coal.

15 Now, it's as if there has been a pledge 

16 that has been taken by political leaders, such as 

17 Mitch McConnell, whose reelection coffers 

18 overflow with blood money from the industry.

19 The Friends of Coal Pledge must go 

20 something like this: "In the name of King Coal, 

21 I solemnly swear to support the bombing of any of 

22 God's mountains that might have a 2-foot seam of 

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1 coal underneath it. I promise to turn a blind 

2 eye to the fact that Central Appalachia has the 

3 highest cancer death rate per capita than any 

4 area in the nation. I deny studies proclaiming 

5 that pregnant women who live under an MTR area 

6 have 185 greater chance of giving birth to a 

7 child with birth defects. I agree to dispute

8 reports that claim mountain bombing, poisonous 

9 water and air, bringing about high rates of 

10 respiratory and circulatory disease, and I 

11 believe that burning coal does not produce 

12 chemicals that affect the Earth or its 

13 inhabitants. Furthermore, I will fight any 

14 effort for safer energy sources that will save 

15 human lives, so help me, my God King Coal."

16 [Applause and cheering.]

17 MR. McCOY: I come here from the stripped 

18 hills of Appalachia where people are dying. I'm 

19 not asking that you do your job, guys, not asking 

20 but, as a tax-paying American citizen, demanding 

21 that you do it.

22 Don't sludge watered-down regulations. 

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1 Don't take the pledge. Take a lesson from the 

2 fearless Congress Members, John Yarmuth and 

3 Louise Slaughter, who are sponsoring the 

4 Appalachian Community Health Emergency, referred 

5 to as the "ACHE Act," H.R. 526, calling for a 

6 national health study to address all the concerns 

7 that countless peer-reviewed studies have 

8 uncovered in Appalachia.

9 Listen now, you guys, America needs laws 

10 and regulations with teeth -- teeth, real teeth 

11 -- to fight against corporate greed's heartless 

12 jaws of death. It's your job. Do it.

13 [Applause and cheering.]

14 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. McCoy.

15 Folks, if you could hold your applause, 

16 please.

17 Thank you both for your testimony, first 

18 of all. Are there any questions for either of 

19 the gentlemen?

20 [No audible response.]

21 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Again, well, thank 

22 you very much for your testimony.

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1 MR. OLIVER: You're welcome.

2 MR. THOMPSON: At this time, I would like 

3 to invite Stephen Wilkins and Doug M-i-e-l-l to 

4 please come forward.

5 [Pause.]

6 MR. WILKINS: We're supposed to follow 

7 that? Wow!

8 [Laughter.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, gentlemen, 

10 and thank you for coming.

11 MR. WILKINS: Good afternoon.

12 MR. THOMPSON: We'd like to start with 

13 you, Mr. Wilkins.

14 MR. WILKINS: Okay. Yep. My name is 

15 Steve Wilkins. That's S-t-e-v-e, W-i-l-k-i-n-s.

16 MR. THOMPSON: And could you just move 

17 just a little closer to the mic, just a little 

18 closer to you. Thank you very much.

19 MR. WILKINS: I am a Kentuckian and a 

20 member of our Commonwealth's largest true 

21 grassroots organization: Kentuckians for the 

22 Commonwealth. I am here to speak a truth 

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1 different from the rhetoric that's been recently 

2 spewing from some of Kentucky's so-called 

3 leaders, leaders beholding to large corporations, 

4 leaders who opposed the Clean Power Plan before 

5 they even knew what was in it.

6 I grew up not in Kentucky but in West 

7 Virginia and not in West Virginia's coal fields 

8 but in what was then steel country. I remember 

9 seeing the sky glow orange at night as the huge 

10 blast furnaces shot sparks and sulfurous fumes 

11 skyward each time there was a blow. Snow-covered 

12 ground would turn gray with soot in just a few 

13 hours.

14 I was too young to know that it was the 

15 frequent weather inversions that made my asthma 

16 and my sister's asthma flare up. I lived just a 

17 couple of blocks from the Ohio River, an 

18 attractive place for a boy of 13, a place 

19 forbidden to play in or around because of the 

20 filth in the river. The river was at the time an 

21 open sewer with toilet residue floating by. That 

22 was before the EPA. That was before the Clean 

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1 Air Act and the Clean Water Act. That was the 

2 way business was done. Rivers burst into flames, 

3 20 people died, thousands sickened from a 

4 pollutant-laden inversion in a town about 60 

5 miles east of my home. Yet it would be decades, 

6 decades before America put the health of our 

7 children and of you and of me ahead of corporate 

8 bottom lines.

9 Today, the pollutants we can see and 

10 smell are controlled much more, and yet 

11 businesses still flourished. Now we face a 

12 challenge we can neither see nor smell. We only 

13 know of its presence because of the data sent to 

14 us by satellite and ocean buoy, numbers given 

15 meaning by the world's climate scientists. We 

16 only experience its consequences as our climate 

17 becomes more volatile.

18 So now America must step up once again 

19 and put the well-being of our children and our 

20 children's children ahead of corporate profit 

21 margins. We do not have decades to get started 

22 with this.

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1 I have been in a unique position as a 

2 citizen and member of a grassroots organization 

3 to have been at the table with electric utility 

4 executives, administrators, and lawyers as part 

5 of a clean energy collaborative. Though I still 

6 consider myself a novice, I have learned the 

7 lingo. I know about baseload, dispatchable, and 

8 variable generation, various types of 

9 power-generating options, cost structures, 

10 decoupling, automated metering, but I have also 

11 learned a lot about energy efficient and 

12 demand-side management strategies. I have 

13 immersed myself in research on overcoming various 

14 barriers to advancing these strategies, and I am 

15 here to tell you that Kentucky has barely 

16 scratched the surface of what is possible.

17 Do not be swayed by those legislators and 

18 corporate interests who say that the 

19 Environmental Protection Agency is killing the 

20 economy and destroying jobs. They want business 

21 as usual. That's understandable. Hell, it's 

22 easier to keep doing what you have been doing.

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1 That said, Kentucky and the nation have 

2 innovated and shifted in order to create a better 

3 tomorrow. Just look at our rural electric 

4 cooperative system, and you will see one 

5 innovation that propelled us out of the 19th 

6 century.

7 Kentucky's legislature has had bills 

8 before it the last several sessions that show a 

9 way forward to reducing fossil fuel-based 

10 generation while creating more jobs than 

11 continuing business as usual, good jobs that can 

12 be had, not just in Urban Kentucky but also in 

13 Appalachian Kentucky, a region that is fighting 

14 for survival now that the coal is almost gone. 

15 These bills not only create new employment 

16 options; they also keep electric rates in check 

17 far more than continuing business as usual.

18 Analyses, top-quality analyses, have been 

19 presented to the legislature showing a viable, 

20 rejuvenating way forward, yet these bills 

21 languish without ever coming to a vote.

22 The proposed Clean Power Plan has set a 

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1 very low bar for Kentucky. Louisville's Courier 

2 Journal stated that the coal-fired power plants 

3 already slated for decommissioning will take 

4 Kentucky most of the way towards the Clean Power 

5 Plan goal. The remaining 7 percent reduction in 

6 coal-fired generation could easily be achieved 

7 through energy efficiency and demand-side 

8 management.

9 Far from imploring the agency to scrap 

10 the Clean Power Plan as vested interests insist, 

11 I join many others here in saying that your plan 

12 is not bold enough. Kentucky and the nation can 

13 do even more. Any revisions to the Clean Power 

14 Plan should be done to create an even more robust 

15 carbon reduction goal. The costs of doing less 

16 are far too great for Kentuckians, Americans, and 

17 all our relations across the world. We have 

18 already tarried for decades, just as we did in 

19 the '50s and '60s when we knew American needed a 

20 Clean Water Act and a Clean Air Act. We don't 

21 have more time. The time is now. The action is 

22 bold.

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1 Thank you for being here to listen to 

2 ordinary folks like me. God's speed.

3 [Applause.]

4 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Wilkins.

5 MR. MIELL: Good afternoon. My name is 

6 Doug Miell. That is M-i-e-l-l.

7 I am representing the Georgia Chamber of 

8 Commerce. The Chamber is the largest voice of 

9 Georgia's business community. We understand that 

10 our members shared one important requirement, and 

11 that is the need for reliable and affordable 

12 energy. It is a major key to Georgia's 

13 competitiveness and success and underpins our 

14 business investment, employment growth, and 

15 enviable living standards.

16 The Chamber seeks to preserve these 

17 advantages for Georgia and its communities and 

18 therefore does not support EPA's decision to 

19 regulate greenhouse gas emissions under the Clean 

20 Air Act.

21 The Chamber supports market-based 

22 development of energy generation capabilities, of 

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1 which coal-fueled generation is an important 

2 component.

3 Currently, the development and management 

4 of the state's energy generation and distribution 

5 systems is carefully planned to stimulate 

6 required investment, provide supply certainty and 

7 reliability, and minimize, to the maximum extent 

8 possible, upward pressure on consumer process. 

9 EPA's regulatory processes must preserve these 

10 principles.

11 Georgia has already achieved significant 

12 emissions reductions through the combined actions 

13 of utilities, regulators, and consumers. This 

14 demonstrates that ongoing change can be achieved 

15 without driving the state's economy into a ditch 

16 or forcing consumers to bear the burden of 

17 inevitable price increases not only in power 

18 process but all manner of goods and services they 

19 rely on to underpin their quality of life.

20 Data in the 2014 Georgia Energy Report 

21 reveals that in recent years, Georgia has 

22 significantly changed its energy generation mix 

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1 and reduced its carbon emissions by fuel 

2 switching, utility investments, and consumption 

3 efficiencies, and I think that number is 

4 approximately 30 percent since 2005. This can be 

5 attributed to a combination of market forces, 

6 regulatory stimulation, and consumer behavior, 

7 all achieved during a period of slow national 

8 economic recovery and without a debilitating coal 

9 clean power plan.

10 Our state is a prime example of what can 

11 be done when providers have the opportunity to 

12 identify solutions that make the most sense not 

13 only for them but also for the communities they 

14 serve, something they will no longer be allowed 

15 to do should EPA's one-size-fits-all regulation 

16 be implemented next year.

17 The United States can also learn a cheap 

18 lesson from the recent Australian carbon tax 

19 experience. During its 2-year life span, the 

20 carbon tax slugged business and industry $9 

21 billion per year. Power processes skyrocketed, 

22 all for miniscule, barely measurable reductions 

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1 in emissions. Businesses were hit with a tax 

2 their international competitors did not have. 

3 Some closed. Others shifted off shore. Many 

4 struggled to survive and prosper. Clearly, 

5 taxation and heavy-handed regulation are not the 

6 panacea to achieving meaningful reductions in 

7 carbon emissions.

8 This pathway delivered at best symbolic 

9 emissions reductions, placed an undue burden on 

10 consumers, and clearly illustrates the economic 

11 uncertainty that faces the U.S. economy if EPA's 

12 Clean Power Plan is implemented, as proposed. It 

13 is not a pathway the Chamber wants to see imposed 

14 in Georgia.

15 As has been demonstrated here in Georgia, 

16 it is indeed possible to achieve meaningful 

17 environmental outcomes while maintaining 

18 affordable process, without subjecting the 

19 economy to draconian measures that will hit 

20 business and consumer confidence, store business 

21 investment, and hinder employment growth. Rural 

22 consumers are likely to be hardest hit in this 

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1 scenario and have the least ability to cope with 

2 any price increases.

3 The Chamber believes that EPA is not 

4 completely focused on respecting roles defined by 

5 law. EPA's actions must allow the states ample 

6 time to perform their rightful rules and 

7 rulemaking authorities.

8 We do not support EPA's heavy-handed 

9 approach of many of its recent actions, often 

10 ignoring the specific needs of regions and 

11 states. We are concerned that EPA appears to be 

12 rushing to achieve an arbitrary deadline without 

13 fully considering state-specific options, and 

14 individual Chamber members are very concerned 

15 that EPA's actions will undermine the reliability 

16 and affordability of their energy supplies, 

17 potentially impacting their business 

18 profitability and competitiveness.

19 Chamber absolutely agrees that Georgia's 

20 natural beauty and quality-of-life are resources 

21 that should be protected, but we believe that 

22 that can be done in a way that does not risk our 

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1 ability to create jobs, encourage investment, and 

2 maintain the globally competitive status we have 

3 worked so hard to create.

4 We implore the EPA to take the needs of 

5 individual states and our economy into 

6 consideration before finalizing the rules, as 

7 proposed, in the Clean Power Plan.

8 And I know over the course of these 2 

9 days, you are going to hear much testimony from 

10 our business colleagues and industry, utility 

11 providers, et cetera, and the Chamber supports 

12 the views that they will be presenting to you.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Miell, and 

15 Mr. Wilkins, as well, thank you.

16 Are there any questions?

17 [No audible response.]

18 MR. THOMPSON: Again, gentlemen, thank 

19 you very much for your testimony.

20 At this time, I would like to invite 

21 Barbara Kelly and Pam Jones. Please come forward 

22 if you are here in the room.

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1 [Pause.]

2 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, ladies. 

3 Thanks for coming.

4 I would like to begin with Ms. Kelly.

5 MS. KELLY: Good afternoon. I am Barbara 

6 Kelly, B-a-r-b-a-r-a, K-e-l-l-y.

7 I am a school counselor here in Georgia. 

8 I don't have a lot of money. I don't have a lot 

9 of influence. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn 

10 last night. I'm not as eloquent as many of the 

11 speakers that you have already heard and that 

12 I've heard this morning, and I'm not an engineer 

13 or a lawyer, although you will hear engineers and 

14 lawyers who will speak to the same concerns I am, 

15 and they will provide all the details and lingo 

16 that I can't. But I do support them.

17 I am here to add my comments on the 

18 proposed Clean Power Plan, and I'll tell you how 

19 I arrived at my views after I first tell you how 

20 I feel about the rules.

21 Number one, first, you need to make the 

22 rules stronger. I want you to increase the total 

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1 emissions reductions. I want you to expect 

2 states to expand renewables, both wind and solar, 

3 and rules should focus more on energy efficiency. 

4 The cheapest plans are those that don't need to 

5 be built, and that helps us put money in 

6 everybody's pockets, not just the utilities but 

7 cities, towns, and individuals in their homes.

8 I want you to limit this business of 

9 changing coal to using gas. Where are we going 

10 to get all this gas? From fracking? That's a 

11 whole nother nightmare. No way can we afford the 

12 damages that this huge influx of natural gas is 

13 going to have, especially if it is all coming 

14 from fracking, which it mostly seems to be, to 

15 our water tables, and that gets us into a whole 

16 nother thing about the dangers of the most 

17 important resource, I think, besides air is 

18 water.

19 And there needs to be ways to measure and 

20 rigorously enforce the rules. I have seen states 

21 with pitiful enforcement capabilities. It 

22 doesn't happen.

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1 Now, I want to tell you a little about 

2 why I have reached these opinions. I told you I 

3 was a school counselor, and you can also see that 

4 I have been around a while. Unlike the lady who 

5 changed her hair dye, I just never chose to ever 

6 dye mine, so you can tell I've been around a 

7 while. While all this is anecdotal, I know there 

8 is research backing me up.

9 In 1995, I went to training by the 

10 American Lung Association to allow me to conduct 

11 support groups for children with asthma at my 

12 school, and at my school, we had several children 

13 with asthma that I went back home from the 

14 workshop here in Atlanta. I went back and worked 

15 with these kids.

16 Well, here it is almost 20 years later, 

17 and there are now so many children at my school 

18 with their inhalers, with their little machines 

19 that you have to do the vapors. "Vaporizing 

20 nebulizers," that's the word for it. It's 

21 incredible. There are kids bringing their 

22 nebulizers to school every day in their school 

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1 bags. There's way too many. It's impossible for 

2 me to hold support groups for them. There's not 

3 enough time, and we've got to get into No Child 

4 Left Behind and all that. We're too busy reading 

5 and writing. But there are just too many kids 

6 with asthma.

7 So I don't want you to collapse your 

8 proposed rules. We just heard from the Chamber 

9 of Commerce about how bad, oh, it's going to be. 

10 Our kids need them as you've proposed them, if 

11 not stronger.

12 Now, I've heard other people here that 

13 were here today and probably will be here 

14 tomorrow that claimed that the rules would cost 

15 people. Oh, they'd cost people. There was one 

16 lady that the audience hugely clapped. She was 

17 one of the first speakers this afternoon, because 

18 she said, "Oh, the poor people" -- I think she 

19 was from Alabama -- "couldn't afford all the 

20 expenses that the rules would bring on." Well, 

21 what about the medical costs when you have a 

22 child with asthma? Those medical costs are 

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1 overwhelming to families, and their kids are 

2 facing death, along with all the bills from 

3 medicines and the ER trips and all of that.

4 Another reason I'm here, not just from 

5 the health aspects that I see, is the effect that 

6 carbon is having on our weather. Two years ago, 

7 huge winds blew from a direction that wind never 

8 blows in my home, and I have been in my house 

9 since 1978, and my wonderfully tall, mature maple 

10 tree blew over. Several nearby communities had 

11 devastating destruction, and I deal with kids who 

12 are now frightened when there are winter storms.

13 I am almost finished. I am trying to 

14 wrap it up.

15 MR. THOMPSON: All right, 30 seconds.

16 MS. KELLY: We have had such storms, 

17 especially this winder when we lost huge days of 

18 school, and this is climate change. We need to 

19 cut the carbon pollution, and, EPA, you need to 

20 stand strong for we the people.

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Kelly. 

22 Please don't leave us just yet.

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1 [Applause.]

2 MR. THOMPSON: All right. Ms. Jones, 

3 please state your name for the court reporter.

4 MS. JONES: My name is Pam Jones, P-a-m, 

5 J-o-n-e-s. I am here representing Citizens 

6 Climate Lobby.

7 Citizens Climate Lobby greatly 

8 appreciates that President Obama recognizes the 

9 urgency of climate change and has directed the 

10 EPA to develop the Clean Power Plan. However, 

11 Citizens Climate Lobby would like to see it 

12 improved by explicitly including a carbon tax as 

13 a viable means of compliance and also including 

14 guidance on the administration, implementation, 

15 price, and escalation rate that a tax would need 

16 to have to satisfy those requirements.

17 Citizens Climate Lobby is a national 

18 organization of citizen volunteers whose mission 

19 is to create the political will for a stable 

20 climate. In particular, we lobby our elected 

21 officials to enact a federal revenue-neutral 

22 carbon tax that taxes fossil fuels at the source 

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1 of extraction and returns 100 percent of the 

2 revenue to American households. This will offset 

3 the rising cost of energy and spur the transition 

4 to low-carbon energy sources.

5 As we work for a federal carbon tax, we 

6 are also seeing many states studying this 

7 approach as a way to both reduce their CO2

8 emissions and also to stimulate their state 

9 economies. For example, Washington and Oregon 

10 are actively studying a state carbon tax.

11 Among economists, a carbon tax is widely 

12 accepted as the most economically efficient and 

13 cost-effective way to reduce CO2 emissions.

14 Detractors who argue against a carbon tax 

15 say that it will kill jobs, drag down the 

16 economy, and burden families with higher energy 

17 bills, but a well-designed carbon tax that 

18 recycles revenue back to households and into the

19 economy would protect families from rising costs 

20 and actually add jobs.

21 A recent study by Regional Economic 

22 Models, Inc., or REMI, found that a carbon tax in 

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1 California, even at very high levels and even on 

2 top of the cap-and-trade program they already 

3 have, would increase GDP and add hundreds of 

4 thousands of jobs, provided the revenue is 

5 returned to the public either as tax cuts or 

6 direct payments. REMI is a leading economic 

7 modeling firm whose clients include the Federal 

8 Government itself, many state and regional 

9 governments, and several leading universities, so 

10 it is a very reputable, respected economic 

11 modeling firm.

12 REMI also just released a first-ever 

13 20-year analysis of the impacts of a gradually 

14 increasing national revenue-neutral carbon tax, 

15 and that study showed that under such a plan, the 

16 U.S. would reduce CO2 emissions to 50 percent of 

17 1990 levels, while growing the U.S. economy by 

18 $1.3 trillion and adding 2.8 million jobs.

19 One of the strengths of the EPA's Clean 

20 Power Plan is that it's not telling states how to 

21 meet the targets. Rather, it is letting states 

22 choose. Much of the draft rule includes ways 

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1 that states could be incompliance with the new 

2 rule. For example, cap-and-trade, renewable 

3 portfolio standards, and energy efficiency 

4 measures are all discussed as compliance 

5 mechanisms. However, conspicuously absent from 

6 the draft rule is any explicit mention of a 

7 carbon tax.

8 EPA officials have stated in public that 

9 states could use a carbon tax to comply, but if 

10 it is not in print, it is unlikely that states 

11 will want to take the risk of not being in 

12 compliance.

13 For example, in Tennessee, which is where 

14 I'm from, it is expected that the State 

15 Implementation Plan will be developed by the 

16 Tennessee Department of Environment and 

17 Conservation, specifically the Air Pollution 

18 Control Board. At their July 9th meeting, the 

19 Air Pollution Control Board reviewed the EPA 

20 rule, and Quincy Styke, the Deputy Director, 

21 said, and I quote, EPA guidance will be a major 

22 factor in SIP development.

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1 Therefore, as you determine the options 

2 that states will have to be in compliance with 

3 the EPA regulations, Citizens Climate Lobby 

4 requests that you consider the following. A 

5 carbon tax should be clearly specified in the 

6 final rule as a viable means of compliance, and 

7 also, you should include clear guidance on the 

8 administration, implementation, price, and 

9 escalation rate for a tax that would satisfy the 

10 requirements of EPA's new rule.

11 States should have as many options 

12 available to them as possible, as long as they

13 are effective in reducing carbon emissions. A 

14 carbon tax would be highly effective and easy to 

15 administer. If states choose to make such a 

16 carbon tax revenue-neutral -- and they did not do 

17 so in Australia; it was not revenue-neutral -- it 

18 will also strengthen their economies.

19 On behalf of our grandchildren and 

20 children and future generations, thank you for 

21 taking a step to reduce the causes of global 

22 warming, the most urgent challenge of our 

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1 lifetime.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Jones.

3 Just a quick question for you.

4 [Applause.]

5 MR. THOMPSON: Are you planning to submit 

6 written comments?

7 MS. JONES: Pardon me?

8 MR. THOMPSON: Are you planning to submit 

9 written comments?

10 MS. JONES: I will.

11 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. Because you 

12 referenced a modeling firm I want to learn more 

13 about.

14 MS. JONES: The written comments will 

15 have links.

16 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

17 MS. JONES: Yes, thank you.

18 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both for your 

19 testimony.

20 At this time, I would like to invite Alex 

21 Mullins and Nick Mullins. Please come forward.

22 [Pause.]

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon to the both 

2 of you. Hi.

3 MR. MULLINS: Good afternoon.

4 MR. THOMPSON: Could you state your name 

5 and spell it for the court reporter, and then you 

6 can begin testimony.

7 MR. MULLINS: Okay. Do you want to start 

8 with me first?

9 MR. THOMPSON: Please.

10 MR. MULLINS: My name is James Nicholas 

11 Mullins, J-a-m-e-s, N-i-c-h-o-l-a-s, 

12 M-u-l-l-i-n-s.

13 I am a former fourth-generation 

14 underground coal miner, and while I can't sit 

15 here and rattle off facts, I can describe what I 

16 saw and have seen around my home in Virginia. 

17 We've seen the creeks turn colors. I've 

18 witnessed the mountain above my home laid to 

19 waste. They took the top of it off to extract 

20 the coal and forever ruined our spring.

21 We have seen the casualties of coal 

22 mining within our family. I've seen my father 

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1 struggle with is pain every day from injuries 

2 incurred in the mines. I see it in the injuries 

3 of my uncles who, too, were injured in the mines, 

4 who sometimes in a visit can't get off the floor. 

5 They have to lay flat at their back and stare 

6 straight at the ceiling and apologize for not 

7 being able to stare at you or to talk to you 

8 normally because they are having to deal with 

9 those pains. Coal hasn't been kind to my family.

10 I went into the mines myself hoping to 

11 give my kids a good future, and I realized that 

12 that's the worst way I could be doing it.

13 We have to realize the problems that are 

14 being caused by coal extraction, by natural gas 

15 extraction that also is occurring nearby. We

16 have to open our eyes to the much bigger pictures 

17 out there. That we can't live this kind of 

18 wasteful life.

19 I have often flown across cities and seen 

20 the lights, millions of lights out there burning 

21 bright, and people will say that coal keeps the 

22 lights on, that this is important for our 

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1 economy, but I can't help but wonder why we have 

2 to have so many lights all the time. Is that 

3 really going to help our children in the future 

4 as we continue to blow up these mountains?

5 [Applause.]

6 MR. MULLINS: I've heard a few of the 

7 testimonies from people here, from the business 

8 leaders, the people who look at economy and look 

9 at business, and I can't help but wonder why they 

10 believe or don't understand what it does to 

11 people to extract these energies.

12 I was raised believing that we had an 

13 alienable right to life, freedom, and the pursuit 

14 of happiness, but that happiness seems to be 

15 coming for a majority while a minority are caused 

16 to suffer. It is a form of Benthamite 

17 utilitarianism, not democracy. It's quantitative 

18 heathenism whenever so many people in this nation 

19 get to have the choice of having a wonderful life 

20 and a healthy-ish life while those of us back 

21 home have to worry about whether or not our 

22 children are going to be the next to go to St. 

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1 Jude's, whether or not our families are going to 

2 get further hurt in the mines or even killed.

3 I know that we leave a lot of things 

4 behind. It is not just the mountaintop removal. 

5 Unfortunately, I participated in acts in the 

6 mines of changing gear oils, in which we never 

7 captured it. One day, I decided to just 

8 calculate that up. I realized that we were 

9 draining 3,000 gallons of used gear oil into that 

10 mine every year. We had hydraulic oil leaks, and 

11 we were required to refill the tanks on our 

12 equipment. None of that was ever captured, and 

13 we would often have to go load 60 gallons of 

14 hydraulic fluids to replace used hydraulic fluids 

15 that hadn't escaped into the environment.

16 These go somewhere. They don't just 

17 disappear. They either remain in the mine where 

18 they eventually become part of the water table, 

19 or they end up in coal slurry, which again 

20 eventually ends up into the water table.

21 We have to do something. The EPA is here 

22 to protect us.

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1 I appreciate what you are trying to do, 

2 but we need more of it. We need focus on energy 

3 efficiency. We don't need to learn ways to find 

4 more energy and use more energy. We need to find 

5 ways to become more energy efficient, and that 

6 can bring us jobs.

7 [Applause and cheering.]

8 MR. MULLINS: That can employ coal 

9 miners. That can give people all across this 

10 nation a chance to try to do what I was trying to 

11 do, and that's work to give my kids a better 

12 future.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Mullins.

15 [Applause and cheering.]

16 MR. MULLINS: State your name and spell 

17 it.

18 ALEXANDRIA MULLINS: My name is 

19 Alexandria Mullins, A-l-e-x-a-n-d-r-i-a, 

20 M-u-l-l-i-n-s.

21 I am 9 years old. I am going into fourth 

22 grade. I used to live in Clintwood, Virginia, 

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1 where my family had lived in the mountains for 

2 almost 200 years. My daddy was a coal miner, so 

3 was my papa, my great-granddaddies, and even my 

4 great-great-granddaddy. When I was 6, we had to 

5 move away because my parents wanted me and my 

6 brother to have healthier lives.

7 Other people in the USA don't live near 

8 coal mines. Coal trucks came through, and coal 

9 dust was always coming out behind them. They 

10 haven't experienced having mountaintop removal on 

11 a mountain behind their homes. They did it to 

12 us.

13 First, they take all the trees down and 

14 burn them. Next, they drill holes in the 

15 mountain and put explosives in them and blow them 

16 up. It is terrible. If people know where I used 

17 to live, they would learn what is happening in 

18 Appalachia, like the mining which caused the 

19 creek down our hollow to white with black stuff 

20 all in it.

21 I even saw an orange polluted spring 

22 coming out of the woods above our house, and 

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1 Daddy said it was the one that my family used for 

2 four generations before they mined above us.

3 I loved our home in Clintwood where we 

4 could climb the mountains, but now we can't. The 

5 mountain behind our old house is gone. In order 

6 to keep all the flying squirrels and other 

7 animals, we have to save these mountains. That 

8 way, they can live and do not have to leave.

9 The Clean Power Plan sounds like a great 

10 idea because we do need to use our energy wisely. 

11 I want the people to know where energy really 

12 comes from, because the mountains in Appalachia 

13 are being destroyed just for the coal. 

14 Coal-fired power plants are making carbon 

15 limitations necessary because the coal-fired

16 power plants make carbon dioxide, and it's not 

17 just coal, though. It's natural gas too. 

18 Natural gas is being pulled out by wells. Some 

19 are even causing people's water to become toxic 

20 and catch on fire when matches are took to it.

21 Where are we supposed to get our water 

22 from? That's my question for you.

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1 The Clean Power Plan sounds like a great 

2 idea. We really need to be more energy 

3 efficient. Less energy means less mountains 

4 being destroyed, less springs being polluted, 

5 less wells being drilled, and less people getting 

6 sick.

7 Please help us.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Alexandria.

9 [Applause and cheering.]

10 MR. THOMPSON: I have a question for you. 

11 How old are you?

12 ALEXANDRIA MULLINS: Nine.

13 MR. THOMPSON: What grade are you in?

14 ALEXANDRIA MULLINS: I'm going into 

15 fourth.

16 MR. THOMPSON: You did an excellent job 

17 testifying. Excellent job. Thank you for your 

18 testimony, and, Dad, thank you, as well.

19 Any questions?

20 [No audible response.]

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you again. Great 

22 job.

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1 MR. MULLINS: Thank you.

2 ALEXANDRIA MULLINS: Thank you.

3 MR. THOMPSON: At this time, I would like 

4 to invite James Rust and Doug Fulle to please 

5 come forward.

6 [Pause.]

7 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, gentlemen. 

8 I would like to start with Mr. Rust.

9 DR. RUST: I am Dr. James Rust, R-u-s-t. 

10 I represent the Heartland Institute. I am a 

11 retired engineering professor from Georgia Tech 

12 with over 50 years' experience in areas related 

13 to energy.

14 The EPA came out with their rule on the 

15 2nd of June on carbon pollution standards, asking 

16 for a 30 percent reduction on carbon pollution by 

17 the year 2030. Carbon pollution to me means 

18 soot. Carbon pollution to EPA means carbon 

19 dioxide is what they want to reduce by 30 

20 percent. Carbon dioxide is not pollution. They 

21 are saying their rules will help your public 

22 health and will also stop global warming. 

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1 I have heard the word "asthma" bounced 

2 around here. Carbon dioxide has nothing to do 

3 with asthma, no matter what the level there is, 

4 and this is pure fabrication by the EPA and 

5 misrepresentation equating carbon dioxide to 

6 causing health problems. We need it to live 

7 with.

8 The science saying that carbon dioxide 

9 increases are causing catastrophic global warming 

10 is greatly overwhelmed by the stuff I got piled 

11 here. I don't have all. There's more that 

12 refutes. You are using United Nations' reports 

13 to base your rulings. These reports are 

14 distorted because they based on politics. This 

15 stuff is real science that shows EPA rules are 

16 wrong. Carbon dioxide increases has a negligible 

17 effect on global warming.

18 All these rules that come forth here will 

19 do nothing as far as the climate is concerned. 

20 We talk about 800 million tons of CO2 being 

21 reduced by the year 2030 for that particular 

22 year. Today, it is almost 900 billion tons of 

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1 carbon dioxide are produced on this planet, 94 or 

2 95 percent by Mother Nature. So any of these 

3 activities here amount to nothing but an increase 

4 in your expenses, and the Federal Government will 

5 be telling you how to live, where you shop, and 

6 --

7 ATTENDEE: [Speaking off mic.]

8 MR. THOMPSON: Please continue with the 

9 testimony, sir.

10 DR. RUST: Okay.

11 But interfering in your way of life. The 

12 time this came out on the 2nd, the first thing 

13 that came to my mind -- I've been around for a 

14 long time, and I have a lot of sense of history 

15 that's going on in this country.

16 When I saw their initial announcements on 

17 this thing, I was reminded of Attorney Joseph 

18 Welch, which I don't think anybody in this room 

19 knows who I am talking about, but in 1954, he was 

20 an attorney representing the U.S. Army at the 

21 McCarthy televised hearings on communism. 

22 McCarthy had accused his lawyers deporting him of 

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1 homosexual activities, and Welch pointed to 

2 McCarthy and said, "You have done enough now. 

3 Have you no sense of dignity?" I am saying this 

4 now in activities of EPA. They have done too 

5 much. This is going to destroy America's 

6 economy. It is going to ruin our ability to 

7 negotiate on foreign affairs. Energy is causing 

8 all this distress in the Middle East, if you pay 

9 any attention, and Putin has got power because he 

10 controls the natural gas falling into Europe. We 

11 can't explore because EPA's policies and the 

12 government policies are to thwart the use of 

13 fossil fuels and production of fossil fuels in 

14 this country.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Dr. Rust.

16 Mr. Fulle.

17 MR. FULLE: My name is Doug Fulle. 

18 That's F-u-l-l-e. I am the Vice President of 

19 Environment Affairs for Oglethorpe Power 

20 Corporation.

21 Thank you for this opportunity to comment 

22 on EPA's Clean Power Plan. Oglethorpe Power is 

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1 one of the nation's largest power supply 

2 cooperatives, with approximately $9 billion in 

3 assets and serving 38 electric membership 

4 corporations, or EMCs, which collectively provide 

5 electricity to more than 4.1 million Georgians. 

6 On behalf of these citizens, I'd like to make the 

7 following four points.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Could you move the mic 

9 just a little closer to you, please. Thank you.

10 MR. FULLE: First, under-construction 

11 nuclear should not be included in the calculation 

12 of state goals. EPA's inclusion of Vogtle 3 and 

13 4 in setting Georgia's performance standard is 

14 inequitable and misguided. Rather than rewarding 

15 states and utilities that are the early movers in 

16 permitting and constructing this important type 

17 of non-emitting generation, EPA's inclusion of

18 under-construction nuclear in calculating state 

19 goals serves instead as a penalty.

20 Specifically, the electricity consumers 

21 of Georgia should not be penalized for stepping 

22 up and spending over $14 billion on Vogtle 3 and 

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1 4, which will provide the state with 2,200 

2 megawatts of power, with zero CO2 emissions. It 

3 is blatantly unfair and sends precisely the wrong 

4 message to the business community.

5 Second, Oglethorpe Power does not believe 

6 the Clean Power Plan, as proposed, fairly spreads 

7 the burden of reducing CO2 emissions among the 

8 states. While Georgia has already reduced its 

9 tons of CO2 emissions by around 30 percent between 

10 2005 and 2012, the state is required to reduce 

11 its emission rate by another 44 percent between 

12 2012 and 2030, which is the sixth largest 

13 reduction of all the states. Other states, which 

14 have been much less proactive than Georgia in the 

15 past, are being required to do much less than 

16 Georgia in the future.

17 Third, we are very concerned about the 

18 potential impact that EPA's Clean Power Plan will 

19 have on the cost of electricity to our member 

20 systems and their customers. Over the last 

21 several years, Oglethorpe Power has invested 

22 around $1 billion on environmental control 

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1 equipment at Plants Scherer and --

2 [Technical interruption.]

3 MR. THOMPSON: All right. Very good.

4 Please continue.

5 MR. FULLE: Okay. I will pick up again.

6 Oglethorpe Power has invested about a 

7 billion dollars on environmental control 

8 equipment at Plant Scherer and Plant Wansley, 

9 which we co-own with several other utilities in 

10 order to comply with various EPA regulatory 

11 programs.

12 If EPA's Clean Power Plan were to be 

13 finalized, as currently proposed, these capital 

14 investments would need to be spread over and 

15 recovered over significantly fewer 

16 megawatt-hours, resulting in an increase in the 

17 cost of the electricity we generate. This 

18 increased cost would be borne by our member 

19 systems and their customers.

20 Another significant concern relates to 

21 how heavily the cost of compliance depends on the 

22 future cost of natural gas, which has 

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1 historically been extremely volatile. EPA's 

2 building block number two assumes a very large 

3 increase in generation from natural gas combined 

4 cycle facilities, which will significantly 

5 increase the demand for gas nationally. Exactly 

6 how much prices will rise in response to this 

7 increase and demand is unknown at this point, but 

8 the cost of compliance is so heavily tied to the 

9 future price of this fuel, this is a serious 

10 concern and one that we don't feel EPA has 

11 adequately addressed in this proposal.

12 Finally, fourth, Oglethorpe Power has 

13 serious concerns related to the reasonableness 

14 and technical justification associated with the 

15 assumptions EPA used in developing the four 

16 building blocks used to calculate state interim 

17 and final goals. Almost anything is technically 

18 feasible if you are willing to spend the 

19 necessary money, but we question whether the CO2

20 reductions assumed in the four building blocks 

21 are economically feasible.

22 For example, EPA's renewable energy and 

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1 energy efficiency assumptions for building blocks 

2 three and four rely heavily on assuming what's 

3 been done in one state is therefore technically 

4 feasible and can be reasonably done in other 

5 states, a logic which we believe is seriously 

6 flawed.

7 Just because a certain level of energy 

8 efficiency has been reached in one state does not 

9 mean it can be repeated in another state with a 

10 different mix of residential, commercial, and 

11 industrial electricity customers. EPA needs to 

12 develop the assumptions it uses to calculate 

13 state performance goals by evaluating what can be 

14 done in each state. EPA should not base the 

15 goals on what a few states have done and assume 

16 they can be repeated either regionally in the 

17 case of renewables or nationally in the case of 

18 energy efficiency.

19 We thank you for our time.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Fulle.

21 Just for clarification, your third point 

22 was address the impact on the cost of 

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1 electricity. Is that what it was?

2 MR. FULLE: Yeah, the cost of electricity 

3 to our members.

4 MR. THOMPSON: Okay. I just wanted to 

5 make sure I got it right. We had the mic 

6 problem. 

7 Are there any questions for either Mr. 

8 Fulle or Dr. Rust?

9 MR. HUTSON: I just hope you will be 

10 submitting comments.

11 MR. FULLE: Oh, we will.

12 MR. HUTSON: Good.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Well, gentlemen, thank you 

14 both for your time today and for your testimony. 

15 Thank you.

16 At this time, I would like to invite Ruth 

17 Bamberger and Bryan Tolar if they are in the room 

18 to please come forth.

19 [Pause.]

20 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon to the both 

21 of you.

22 MS. BAMBERGER: Ruth Bamberger, 

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1 B-a-m-b-e-r-g-e-r.

2 I live in Ludlow, Kentucky, across the 

3 river from Cincinnati on the Ohio River where we 

4 have seven coal-fired power plants up and down 

5 the river in that region.

6 I support the new carbon rules, though 

7 modest, reducing carbon emissions by only 30 

8 percent by 2030 based on high emission 2006 

9 levels.

10 The European Union, by contrast, has 

11 adopted a much stronger policy of 40 percent 

12 reduction by 2030 based on lower emissions 1990 

13 pollution levels.

14 That said, I dismiss the harsh rhetoric 

15 and claims made by numerous politicians and 

16 energy industry leaders that the new carbon rules 

17 are unattainable. As reported in the New York 

18 Times on June 8th, the EPA gives Kentucky wide 

19 flexibility in reducing its carbon output by only

20 18 percent by 2030. Moreover, the state has many 

21 options under the rules to reduce carbon 

22 pollution, including efficiency improvements at 

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1 power plants, energy conservation programs, and 

2 renewable energy standards for public utilities, 

3 a policy already in effect in half the states in 

4 the U.S.

5 Kentucky lawmakers can readily work 

6 toward the new EPA standards if they will support 

7 the Clean Energy Opportunity Act, which has been 

8 before our General Assembly the last 4 years. 

9 This bill sets the renewable energy goal of 12.5 

10 percent from clean energy resources by 2024, sets 

11 energy efficiency standards for utilities, and 

12 establishes feed-in tariff rates that utilities 

13 pay in state energy producers.

14 Moreover, a study by Synapse Energy 

15 Economics estimated that 28,000 new jobs could be 

16 created if this legislation passes.

17 Coal generates 93 percent of the 

18 electricity in Kentucky. We rank number one in 

19 the nation in carbon emissions per unit of 

20 electricity produced from all sources. Indeed, 

21 coal is a culture here, but even natives of Coal 

22 Country recognize the inevitable changes afoot.

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1 When I recently worked the crowds at the 

2 Cincinnati Coney Island Appalachian Fest, 

3 soliciting signatures on a petition to stop 

4 mountaintop strip mining in eastern Kentucky, I 

5 was amazed by the number of those signing on who 

6 were natives of the area or who had family 

7 members who were or are miners.

8 Last year, the state kicked off Project 

9 SOAP, Shaping our Appalachian Region, to initiate 

10 new job opportunities in the region. Non-profits 

11 such as the Mountain Association for Community 

12 Economic Development and Kentuckians for the 

13 Commonwealth are working to enable a transition 

14 from a coal economy to jobs in energy efficiency 

15 industries and agriculture.

16 Citizens like myself ask our leaders to 

17 stop the foot dragging and face the reality of a 

18 post-fossil fuel era.

19 I thank the EPA for nudging us forward. 

20 Thank you.

21 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Bamberger.

22 [Applause.]

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Tolar, please.

2 MR. TOLAR: Thank you for that warm 

3 welcome. I am Bryan Tolar, B-r-y-a-n, T-o-l-a-r.

4 I am proud to be the President of the 

5 Georgia Agribusiness Council. We are a statewide 

6 trade association made up of over 850 

7 agribusinesses across the state. That includes 

8 farmers, processors, and distributors of the food 

9 and fiber products that we all enjoy.

10 We come to you today in opposition to the 

11 rules that are proposed because of the impact it 

12 will have on our agriculture economy. 

13 When you look at the production of 

14 agricultural products, it is a very 

15 energy-intensive industry. That includes a lot 

16 of electricity that is used for processing 

17 products like cotton, shelling, processing 

18 peanuts, even poultry houses and other livestock 

19 facilities. We also use a lot of natural gas. 

20 That natural gas is used to produce fertilizer. 

21 Nitrogen is the key component. The cost of 

22 producing nitrogen, 80 percent of that is natural 

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1 gas. So when you look at the energy alternatives 

2 that have been proposed through the rules that 

3 are out there that we're discussing today, we are 

4 looking at a drastic increase in the usage of 

5 natural gas product.

6 We know from our energy providers that 

7 the cost of electricity is going to go up under 

8 this proposal, and we also know through supply 

9 and demand that the cost of natural gas also will 

10 go up.

11 Now you think that perhaps increasing 

12 costs, well, that's just part of doing business, 

13 right; we just pass that on to the consumer? 

14 Well, agricultural products are sold in a world 

15 market. Farmers are price-takers, so the margins 

16 there are very thin. When you look at increasing 

17 the overhead, then we look at decreasing the 

18 opportunity for those farmers to be profitable.

19 We are competing in a global market, so 

20 what does that do? That means that those 

21 countries that we compete with to provide those 

22 food and fiber resources that don't have these 

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1 burdens, all of a sudden, have the economic 

2 advantage.

3 The very industry that grew this country, 

4 the very industry that leads the economy here in 

5 Georgia is directly under fire by these proposed 

6 regulations.

7 When you look also at food and fiber 

8 production, it is not just about what do we bring 

9 to the marketplace and what do we bring to 

10 consumers. It is also an issue of national 

11 security. A country that does not produce its 

12 own food and fiber is a country that cannot 

13 protect itself.

14 I can guarantee everyone in this room 

15 today has already eaten or will eat. You are not 

16 going to pick up a gun and fight. You are not 

17 going to challenge the borders of our state. You 

18 are going to enjoy the agricultural products that 

19 our farmers provide, and that much, we should be 

20 very grateful for, because that is real national 

21 security.

22 As we look forward to this process taking 

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1 on more discussion and your time here in Atlanta, 

2 I want us to think about what the real economic 

3 impact are for our state, because for us, 

4 agriculture is not something that we do. It's 

5 something that is Georgia. It is our largest 

6 economic engine, over $80 billion annually, 

7 375,000 jobs. It is not just providing jobs in 

8 an area large like Atlanta. It also is what 

9 drives the economies of rural Georgia.

10 Two-thirds of our state's counties have 

11 agriculture as the number-one or number-two 

12 economic engine, and those farms, they're not 

13 just farming. They're providing jobs for schools 

14 and for hospitals, for libraries, for the feed 

15 and seed, and little grocery stores that are all 

16 scattered across our communities. This is an 

17 industry that is about community, and it's an 

18 industry that needs the big hands of government 

19 to get out of the way, so that we can complete in 

20 a global marketplace and do what we do best, and 

21 that is provide the cheapest, safest food 

22 products in the world.

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1 Thank you very much for your time.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Tolar.

3 Are there any questions for either Ms. 

4 Bamberger or Mr. Tolar?

5 [No audible response.]

6 MR. THOMPSON: Well, thank you both very 

7 much for your testimony.

8 At this time, I would like to invite Anup 

9 Shah and Rick Fowler to please come forward.

10 [Pause.]

11 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, gentlemen, 

12 and thank you for coming.

13 I'd like to start with you, Mr. Shah.

14 MR. SHAH: Anup Shah. A-n-u-p. Last 

15 name, Shah, S-h-a-h. 

16 Good afternoon. I am Anup Shah, Vice 

17 President of Environment Affairs at the Metro 

18 Atlanta Chamber.

19 First of all, I want to express Metro 

20 Atlanta Chamber's appreciation for this 

21 opportunity to come here and share our 

22 perspectives on the proposed clean power rules.

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1 Metro Atlanta Chamber was established in 

2 1860. Over the past 100-plus years, we have 

3 convened businesses and non-profit leaders to 

4 address some of the toughest challenges in the 

5 region. Today, we serve as a voice for over 

6 3,000 businesses and over 1 million employees in 

7 the region.

8 Earlier this year, Metro Atlanta Chamber 

9 received a presidential award for export service, 

10 leading the exports out of this country. So we 

11 are the economic development entity for the 

12 29-county MSA around Metro Atlanta.

13 Let me begin by saying curbing carbon 

14 dioxide emissions is important, but Metro Atlanta 

15 Chamber has significant issues with the approach 

16 EPA has taken through these proposed rules. 

17 Climate change is a global phenomenon, 

18 and it needs to be addressed in a global way. 

19 Each carbon dioxide molecule that is emitted in 

20 the atmosphere, whether it comes from U.S., 

21 China, India, or Brazil, contributes equally to 

22 the climate change. Today, India and China are 

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1 emitting more carbon dioxide than the United 

2 States. Energy policies in these countries call 

3 for several new large-scale coal-fired plants. 

4 Just yesterday, Australia approved a project by 

5 an Indian company to build one of the largest 

6 gold mines in the world.

7 The point I am trying to drive is U.S. 

8 acting alone curbing carbon dioxide emissions is 

9 not going to solve these issues. We must also 

10 think about the unintended consequences of the 

11 proposed rules.

12 At Metro Atlanta Chamber, we know energy 

13 price is a key factor in economic development. 

14 EPA's proposed rules will cause underutilization 

15 or abandonment of some of the domestic resources 

16 for electricity generation. It will force 

17 utilities to offer energy sources outside of the 

18 economic dispatch. This will naturally lead to 

19 high energy prices in the U.S., and higher energy 

20 prices here will erode competiveness of the 

21 domestic manufacturers trying to export in a 

22 global market.

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1 Over the last few years, we are noticing 

2 a manufacturing resurgence in the U.S.; however, 

3 if the energy prices go up in the U.S., we will 

4 again see these manufacturers leave for overseas 

5 markets, to markets that are still relying on 

6 coal-based but low-cost energy.

7 Imagine this. If the same products, 

8 let's say this pen, is now manufactured overseas 

9 using a dirty power, there might be more 

10 emissions to produce this pen overseas than here 

11 in the United States. That is not the outcome we 

12 are looking for. By moving manufacturing 

13 overseas, we may actually see the worldwide CO2

14 emissions increase. That is not what we are 

15 looking for.

16 On a domestic front, the proposed rule 

17 will create imbalance among various states and 

18 disturb the economic development policies here, 

19 as well. 

20 Historically, Georgia has had lower than 

21 average electricity prices, because we relied on 

22 a diverse generation mix to provide fuel 

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1 flexibility and reliability to achieve consistent 

2 low prices. Simply by responding to market 

3 conditions and Public Service Commission-directed 

4 adjustments, Georgia has reduced its carbon 

5 dioxide emissions by more than 33 percent in the 

6 last decade.

7 Georgia has been proactive in adopting 

8 nuclear and other renewable energy sources, 

9 including one of the first nuclear plant 

10 expansions in the nation since the '80s. In this 

11 state, we have invested tens of billions of 

12 dollars to expand Plant Vogtle nuclear plan, to 

13 produce new carbon-free energy. However, the 

14 timeline chosen in the proposed rules does not 

15 appropriately credit Georgia for these proactive 

16 actions. Rather, EPA's guidelines would force 

17 Georgia to make further investments. It will 

18 make Georgia opt for energy sources that are 

19 outside of the economic dispatch and again 

20 increase energy prices in the state.

21 At Chamber, we know uncertainties 

22 regarding energy prices breed lack of confidences 

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1 from businesses and manufacturers. It will 

2 impact further investment and job creation in the 

3 state. For businesses, reliable, cost-effective 

4 electricity is of utmost importance. Access to 

5 reliable and affordable energy supply is critical 

6 to Georgia's recovery and future economic growth.

7 EPA has never set enforceable statewide 

8 limits for all justified directions at an 

9 affected source based outside-the-fence 

10 measurements. Such approach, we believe is 

11 unprecedented.

12 Rather than seeking parity in carbon 

13 intensity across all states, we believe EPA's 

14 current approach of outlining CO2 reduction goals 

15 is random.

16 The 2030 CO2 emissions goal or carbon 

17 dioxide emissions goal for many states is lower 

18 than the beginning baseline for several of the 

19 states. We believe through this plan, EPA 

20 appears to be picking winning and losing states 

21 for economic development. Clearly, that should 

22 not be the objective and goal of the Clean Air 

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1 Act or any actions to fight climate change.

2 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Shah?

3 MR. SHAH: One last point. So I urge EPA 

4 to withdraw and reconsider the proposed rules. 

5 As I conclude, I wanted to draw attention to a 

6 recent development.

7 MR. THOMPSON: Thirty seconds.

8 MR. SHAH: Australian government voted 

9 just on July 17th to repeal a decade-old carbon 

10 tax. Let's learn from the experience and seek a 

11 comprehensive and global solution, and we believe 

12 a solution for climate change should be a 

13 comprehensive and worldwide solution.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, and thank you 

16 for your testimony. We would welcome your 

17 written comments, as well, please.

18 Mr. Fowler.

19 MR. FOWLER: My name is Rick Fowler, 

20 R-i-c-k, F-o-w-l-e-r.

21 And I'm just a guy. I'm 64 years old, 

22 and I live in Owensboro, Kentucky, where we're 

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1 surrounded by strip coal mines and coal-powered 

2 electric generating plans.

3 My father was a coal miner, a union coal 

4 miner. I grew up in Spurgeon, Indiana, so my 

5 friends are or were coal miners. Pike County was 

6 the richest county in the state per person one 

7 day, and the next day, Pike County was the 

8 poorest county in the state per person. The coal 

9 mines closed down.

10 Spurgeon is now an island surrounded by 

11 overturned and broken rocks. They were supposed 

12 to reclaim the land, but the land can no longer 

13 be farmed as it once was, and the only trees that 

14 are growing there are small pine trees that will 

15 grow in that poor soil.

16 I was raised to clean up after myself. 

17 My father was sick from black lung, and he later 

18 died from it, so I did all the chores around the 

19 home. When I was 16 years of age, I learned to 

20 drive my father's '54 Chevy pickup, and I hauled 

21 coal to people in town that heated their house 

22 with coal. We heated our house with coal. I'm 

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1 quite familiar with what it does. I know about 

2 the soot. And I was taught I should clean up 

3 after myself.

4 According to the third United States 

5 National Climate Assessment in the Midwest, 

6 heatwaves during pollination of field crops will 

7 reduce yields. Heatwaves during pollination of 

8 field crops will reduce yields. Climate change 

9 will exacerbate a range of risks to the Great 

10 Lakes, including a change in the range and 

11 distribution of certain fish species and 

12 increased invasive population of non-indigenous 

13 species, harmful blooms of algae, as well as a 

14 decline in beach health.

15 Twenty years ago, my son and I took a 

16 camping trip to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. 

17 We swam or rather jumped into Lake Superior. It 

18 was so cold, we could barely stand it. 

19 I took another trip there last summer, 

20 and not only was the water warmer, it was much 

21 warmer, almost too warm to cool off. There was 

22 some sort of scum for the first 10 feet of water 

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1 along the shore.

2 I support the CO2 regulations. I do not 

3 feel that it goes far enough, but I guess it's a 

4 start. We need to clean up after ourselves.

5 The United States National Climate 

6 Assessment, the National Academy of the United 

7 States, the Royal Society of the United Kingdom 

8 have written papers that support the consensus 

9 that billions of tons of CO2 and other greenhouse 

10 gases released by burning coal have warmed the 

11 Earth's climate, and consequences will be 

12 increasingly harmful. Dozens of other scientific 

13 societies have issued similar statements.

14 If you wish to deny that climate change 

15 is happening for any other reason, you must have 

16 at the very least similar sources to help private 

17 your allegations. We must move away from coal 

18 and begin a new economy using clean, renewable 

19 fuels. I think there would be less wars in the 

20 Middle East because of that.

21 According to the 2014 Clean Air Task 

22 Force Study, the coal-burning power plant in 

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1 Owensboro, Kentucky, the Elmer Smith plant, 

2 contributes to 230 asthma attacks as well as 14 

3 deaths per year. I don't know if that's carbon 

4 dioxide or soot, but it does. 51,000 people live 

5 within 5 miles of the Elmer Smith plant, and they 

6 face 3 million tons of CO2 emissions as well as 

7 five other plants within a 20-mile radius of 

8 Owensboro.

9 In an article in Science and Technology, 

10 Issue 15-20, titled "Scientists Politely Remind 

11 the World that Clean Energy Technology is Ready 

12 to Go Whenever," Dr. Sandra Eakins writes, "[We] 

13 are pretty much ready to go anytime. We've got 

14 solar, wind, geothermal -- we're all set to move 

15 forward with this stuff whenever everybody else

16 is . . . You seriously should see the new 

17 hydrogen fuel cells we have." The magazine 

18 Science and Technology stated, "At press time, 

19 representatives from the world's leading 

20 economies had signaled that they would continue 

21 to heavily rely on fossil fuels until they have 

22 something more than overwhelming scientific 

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1 consensus to go on." I believe we need to clean 

2 up after ourselves.

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Fowler.

4 Are there any questions for Mr. Shah or 

5 Mr. Fowler?

6 [No audible response.]

7 MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen, thank you for 

8 your testimony.

9 MR. SHAH: Thank you.

10 [Pause.]

11 MR. THOMPSON: At this time, I would like 

12 to invite Ben Terpstra and Rel Corbin to please 

13 come forward with your testimony.

14 [Pause.]

15 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon. Just one 

16 moment, gentlemen, to get the timer set here.

17 Again, good afternoon. We are going to 

18 start with Mr. Terpstra.

19 MR. TERPSTRA: Good afternoon. My name 

20 is Ben Terpstra. I'm 21 years old, and I'm from 

21 Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Ben as in Benjamin and 

22 T-e-r-p-s-t-r-a.

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1 Now, I'm not a scientist, but I learned a 

2 lot in middle school. I learned about 

3 equilibrium and the Earth's cycles and systems. 

4 I learned about the greenhouse effect, and I 

5 learned some simple math. And that's really all 

6 you need to understand why our emissions are such 

7 a huge problem, at least at a basic level.

8 I also grew up in the Presbyterian 

9 Church, so I've had some key Christian values 

10 engrained in my soul, and for that I'm very 

11 grateful. I believe we are called to be stewards 

12 for God's good creation and to stand up for those 

13 whom Christ called the least of these, 

14 coincidentally those impacted most severely by 

15 climate change. They have no control over how 

16 our emissions impact their lives, and although 

17 many of them live in our country, many more live 

18 on the other side of the globe. It's often easy 

19 for us to ignore what climate change is doing to 

20 them, but they are feeling its effects right now.

21 In fact, the Department of Defense has 

22 identified climate change as one of the biggest 

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1 threats to global security in the coming decades. 

2 This stems largely from conflicts over our most 

3 basic resources, things like water and food and 

4 arable land. 

5 India is building a wall, far larger than 

6 the one in Israel, to keep climate refugees from 

7 Bangladesh from crossing into their country. 

8 Australia has deported climate refugees back to 

9 the Maldives, and places like Yemen that have 

10 nearly run out of water entirely, conflict is 

11 already erupting, and villages that have lived in 

12 peace for centuries are now fighting and killing 

13 their neighbors for control of the local well. 

14 The revolution in Syria was preceded by 5 years 

15 of draught and plummeting food supplies, largely 

16 the result of climate change.

17 As for our own country, widespread 

18 drought is destroying lives in the Heartland. 

19 California is pretty consistently on fire. 

20 Hurricane Katrina in 2005 was the costliest 

21 natural disaster in U.S. history. In 2012, Super 

22 Storm Sandy devastated New England. Last month, 

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1 two tornadoes converged on the Town of Pilger, 

2 Nebraska, all but wiping it from the map, and 

3 just a couple days ago, a tornado touched down 

4 outside just north of Boston. Boston. Boston 

5 doesn't get tornadoes.

6 We must stand up for the least of these 

7 for our children and for ourselves. This is an 

8 issue of justice, not liberal, not conservative, 

9 but moral. We must ask ourselves not what the 

10 cost will be of enacting these regulations, but 

11 rather what the cost of inaction will be.

12 I don't think you need to be a person of 

13 faith to see that it's our responsibility to do 

14 something about global warming. Is that still an 

15 okay term to use? For some reason, we seem to 

16 prefer "climate change" these days, but calling 

17 it "global warming" highlights one of the most 

18 crucial aspects of the climate crisis. It's 

19 global.

20 I've worked on this issue for 7 years, 

21 and prior to that, I've always recycled. I turn 

22 off the lights when I leave the room, and I never 

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1 leave the water running when I brush my teeth. 

2 My family even owns an electric car, which I 

3 sometimes get to drive, but none of that really 

4 makes a difference in the grand scheme of things. 

5 It's incredibly important, and I hope everyone 

6 does it, but unless we make change at a societal 

7 level, none of it will matter.

8 Climate change is a global problem. It 

9 has global impacts, and it requires global 

10 solutions. Individual actions simply isn't going 

11 to cut it. There have been several attempts to 

12 create a global coalition to face this crisis. 

13 Kyoto and Copenhagen come to mind. But the U.S. 

14 hasn't been willing to play ball. How can we 

15 expect the global community to act when the 

16 global leader won't lead? All right. I'll stop 

17 saying "global" now.

18 These new regulations are in a very real 

19 way the first example of societal-level action in 

20 our country. Are they perfect? Absolutely not. 

21 Are they even sufficient? Absolutely not. But 

22 they are taking a step in the right direction, 

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1 and it's the first such step we're taking as a 

2 nation. That, especially given our current 

3 political climate which seems geared toward 

4 preventing action on any issue, is a really big 

5 deal.

6 As a Christian, as a millennial, and as a 

7 future father, I thank you for that from the 

8 bottom of my heart.

9 MR. THOMPSON: And thank you, Mr. 

10 Terpstra. Thank you very much.

11 [Applause.]

12 MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Corbin.

13 MR. CORBIN: I'm Rel Corbin. I came over 

14 from Little Rock, Arkansas. My mother was born 

15 in Appalachia, Wise County, Virginia.

16 MR. THOMPSON: Sir, I'm sorry. Could you 

17 state and spell your name for the court reporter.

18 MR. CORBIN: Oh, I'm sorry. Rel, R-e-l, 

19 Corbin, C-o-r-b-i-n.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you.

21 MR. CORBIN: My mother's father was a 

22 coal miner in Appalachia and in Harlan County, 

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1 Kentucky. He got black lung disease, so I've got 

2 an interest here.

3 We must stop burning carbon to produce 

4 energy. I'm not concerned about electric 

5 utilities making money and producing cheap power. 

6 Their accountants, lawyers, and engineers are 

7 very clever and can make big bucks and create 

8 many jobs by switching to renewable energy 

9 sources. They just have to change their mindset.

10 The very practical Germans are already 

11 producing a significant amount of their energy 

12 from solar, while they have much more cloud cover 

13 than most of the United States.

14 Accumulation of waste from nuclear 

15 energy, from producing and burning coal, and from 

16 producing natural gas are becoming huge problems. 

17 And I understand solar and wind energy already 

18 provide more jobs than coal mining does.

19 When World War II began, the U.S. had 

20 vast unemployment and was essentially bankrupt, 

21 but extremely fast, we mobilized, industrialized, 

22 and created many millions of jobs. We developed 

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1 the atomic bomb in about 3 years. We can switch 

2 to renewable energy resources fast, creating 

3 millions of good jobs and making many people rich 

4 or richer. We must protect God's creation, 

5 including our children, and provide some 

6 leadership to the world.

7 Thank you.

8 [Applause.]

9 MR. THOMPSON: And thank you, Mr. Corbin, 

10 and Mr. Terpstra, as well.

11 Are there any questions for either of the 

12 gentlemen?

13 I heard you say you were about to become 

14 a new father. 

15 MR. TERPSTRA: Oh.

16 MR. THOMPSON: Not you?

17 MR. TERPSTRA: I plan to. A future 

18 father.

19 MR. THOMPSON: A future father.

20 MR. TERPSTRA: It's one of my greatest 

21 goals in life.

22 MR. THOMPSON: Well, congratulations with 

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1 that. Good luck.

2 Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony.

3 At this time, I would like to invite Tim 

4 Darts and Susan Corbett to please come forward if 

5 you are in the room.

6 [Pause.]

7 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon to the both 

8 of you.

9 I'd like to start with Mr. Darst. Is it 

10 D-o-r-s-t, Dorst?

11 MR. DARST: It's Tim, T-i-m, D-a-r-s-t.

12 MR. THOMPSON: D-a-r-s-t. Okay, thank 

13 you. All right, please.

14 MR. DARST: I am the Executive Director 

15 of Kentucky Interfaith Power & Light. I 

16 represent nearly 3,000 members at 74 

17 congregations in Kentucky who care for God's 

18 creation and care about the people of this Earth 

19 and want a healthy future for our children. We 

20 support strong carbon safeguards under the Clean 

21 Energy Plan.

22 I bring with me a petition of over 200 

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1 signatures from people of faith in Kentucky who 

2 applaud strong carbon pollution standards that 

3 come at a pivotal time when more people than ever 

4 have recognized the threat to their health and 

5 safety from unregulated pollution.

6 I'd like to submit that petition with my 

7 written comments, if that's possible.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Sure.

9 MR. DARST: These rules will safeguard 

10 our communities, our climate, and our children's 

11 future. As people of faith called to care for 

12 God's people and creation, especially the most 

13 vulnerable, we have a moral obligation to address 

14 the profound impacts of the way we use energy.

15 In addition to protecting our climate, 

16 curbing pollution offers many important benefits, 

17 including saving lives and reducing health risks 

18 to those suffering from heart disease and 

19 respiratory ailments such as aa. 

20 Many signing this petition are religious 

21 leaders -- priests, ministers, religious sisters, 

22 and other faith leaders -- who know that we 

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1 cannot continue to pollute God's creation without 

2 serious consequences to the health of the people 

3 of this Earth.

4 The Clean Power Plan proposes 

5 common-sense solutions, and we support these 

6 first-ever limits on carbon pollution from power 

7 plants. Our congregations are already taking 

8 action and, in some cases, reducing emissions 

9 from their operations more than 30 percent while 

10 saving money. They are installing efficient 

11 lighting, programmable thermostats, 

12 energy-efficient heating and air conditioning 

13 units. Three have even installed solar panels 

14 and encouraged their members to do the same. 

15 People of faith know the importance of loving 

16 their neighbor by not polluting their neighbor's 

17 air or water.

18 In Kentucky, we have some of the worst 

19 air in the nation due to our more-than-90-percent 

20 reliance on coal for electricity. Asthma rates 

21 are wreaking havoc on our children.

22 I had a personal experience with this 

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1 myself. When my daughter was 14 and she was on 

2 the gulf team at her high school, I had her out 

3 in a city park in Louisville practicing her 

4 putts. She hit a really long putt, and I mean 

5 really long, the full length of the green, and 

6 she got really excited. She jumped up and down 

7 and started running over to give me a big hug, 

8 and she lost her breath. She had never had any 

9 asthma problems before. She started panicking, 

10 and she hyperventilated.

11 I took her to an emergency room at 

12 Audubon Hospital in Louisville, and when we got 

13 there, we noticed that the emergency room was 

14 very busy, lots of people there, and I got a 

15 little worried that we wouldn't be able to treat 

16 her immediately. But they took her right back, 

17 put her on oxygen, and she's okay.

18 But I asked the nurse what's going on, 

19 and she says, "Well, it's Ozone Alert Day. In 

20 the summer, we burn so much coal because of air 

21 conditioning that the ozone levels are really 

22 high," and she said, "You shouldn't be out. 

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1 Young people, older people shouldn't be out on 

2 those days." That was something that really 

3 changed the way I looked at Ozone Alert Days and 

4 the way we get our electricity.

5 We cannot continue to burn fossil fuels 

6 without having serious health effects that prey 

7 upon the most vulnerable of our population. We 

8 need serious energy-efficiency measures to reduce 

9 the horrible waste we are seeing in this country, 

10 particularly in Kentucky. We also need incentive 

11 for renewable energy sources like wind, solar, 

12 geothermal, and hydroelectric. Strict standards 

13 for carbon pollution will move us in the right 

14 direction. Kentucky is one of the worst states 

15 in terms of our percentage of energy we get from 

16 fossil fuels. Consequently, we have some of the 

17 worst air in the nation.

18 As a seventh generation Kentuckian, I 

19 believe we need this Clean Power Plan, and we 

20 don't need to give Kentucky any breaks on it. We 

21 need the clean air benefits more than any other

22 state.

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1 We have a moral obligation to protect our 

2 children and future generations from the impacts 

3 of climate change by addressing the single 

4 largest source of carbon pollution in our 

5 country: power plants.

6 Drawing on the strength and ingenuity of 

7 American innovation, the EPA's Clean Power Plan 

8 helps drive investment in energy efficiency and 

9 clean energy that will power the 21st century. 

10 The Clean Power Plan means we will never have to 

11 choose between healthy communities and healthy 

12 economy. America will benefit from energy 

13 innovation with lower energy costs, more 

14 diversified and safer energy supplies, and 

15 cleaner energy. For the health of our children 

16 and grandchildren, in the interest of clean air 

17 and clean water, I urge you to implement strong 

18 carbon standards to protect God's creation.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Darst.

21 Ms. Corbett.

22 MS. CORBETT: Thank you. Good afternoon. 

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1 My name is Susan Corbett. that's S-u-s-a-n, 

2 C-o-r-b-e-t-t. I live in West Columbia, South 

3 Carolina. I am the Chair of the South Carolina 

4 Chapter of the Sierra Club, and I'm also Chair of 

5 the National Sierra Club Nuclear-Free Campaign. 

6 So I'm here today kind of wearing two hats, 

7 although in this situation, they are kind of 

8 virtually one in the same.

9 I want to thank you for holding these 

10 hearings and for being so patient and listening 

11 to all of this, and I hate to start off by being 

12 negative, but I want to say that we want to take 

13 issue with this all-of-the-above energy plan that 

14 the EPA seems to be endorsing with these carbon 

15 rules. I will tell you why we are not in favor 

16 of the all-of-the-above approach.

17 All of the above has brought us mercury 

18 in our rivers and in our fish. It's brought us 

19 mountains of coal ash leaking arsenic into our 

20 water, and it's brought us unbreathable air. All 

21 of the above has brought us fracking and a toxic 

22 stew of chemicals injected into our groundwater, 

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1 methane in our drinking wells, and earthquakes 

2 where there never were earthquakes before. All 

3 of the above has brought us 80,000 tons of 

4 plutonium-laced nuclear waste with nowhere to go 

5 and no way to get rid of it, 7,000 tons of it in 

6 my own state, South Carolina, and I can tell you, 

7 all of you out there with nuclear power plants, 

8 if you think you are going to dump your nuclear 

9 waste in South Carolina, you better think again.

10 It has also brought us radioactive 

11 tritium leaking into our rivers. Virtually, 

12 every nuclear power plant is leaking tritium into 

13 the groundwater. And it's brought us the 

14 continued use of 23 dangerous Fukushima Type Mark 

15 I reactors, one of them here in Georgia, and an 

16 oversight agency populated by industry insiders. 

17 That's what the all-of-the-above approach is 

18 bringing us.

19 And what these carbon rules seem to be 

20 indicating is that in all likelihood, we are 

21 going to see more fracking for natural gas and 

22 more building of nuclear power plants as well as 

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1 the relicensing and continuing drawing out of 

2 these unsafe aging reactors. This is very 

3 concerning to South Carolina. In particular, we 

4 have seven reactors, two of them that have 

5 consistently been on the NRC Most Dangerous --

6 Most Unsafe Reactor List.

7 This proposal effectively supports 

8 nuclear power and natural gas fracking without 

9 any mention or consideration to the environmental 

10 and economic effects of the result of promoting 

11 these things.

12 Corporations are not going to reduce 

13 nuclear and natural gas if coal is completely 

14 shut down. It is just going to make gas and 

15 nukes more attractive, the baseload model, and 

16 especially if the EPA puts your finger on the 

17 scale and kind of creates advantages for these 

18 industries and seems to be promoting them.

19 Nuclear and natural gas are not clean 

20 energies. I cannot believe that we are even 

21 considering thinking nuclear is clean. Yes, it 

22 may not be released in carbon, but there is 

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1 nothing clean about nuclear power.

2 The EPA should not be characterizing 

3 nuclear as clean energy. You could say it's 

4 low-carbon energy, but it is not clean. The fact 

5 that even as we speak today, the EPA is 

6 attempting to reduce the ionizing radiation 

7 protection rules to what we think are ridiculous 

8 levels. This should be a wakeup call to all of 

9 us who seem to not be understanding that the 

10 EPA's actions means the future of our energy 

11 policy and the political support for increase in 

12 governmental-sponsored nuclear power. Increasing 

13 nuclear power is going to mean more radiation in 

14 the environment, and a lowering of the standards 

15 means we're all going to get more doses of 

16 radiation.

17 Now, I don't want you to interpret this 

18 as a statement that I am supporting dirty coal 

19 and its debilitating health effects and its 

20 horrible effect and it's ruining our climate. 

21 No. We know that carbon emissions must be cut. 

22 This is a warning to use caution in the direction 

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1 of the travel in the EPA as there appears to be 

2 no vision for the future. It could be said that 

3 you're being reactionary and actually supporting 

4 that which creates greater environmental debt 

5 down the road due to a very myopic approach to 

6 energy policy.

7 A much better course in our mind would be 

8 just a comprehensive energy policy supporting 

9 energy efficiency, sustainable, renewable, a 

10 really clean energy power generating forms, not a 

11 lackluster, piecemeal environmental policy in 

12 which the cancellation of one poison will 

13 increase the use of other poisons. That sooner 

14 or later, you're going to be back here forcing --

15 we're going to have to confront these poisons, 

16 along with all of the impacts on their health and 

17 our safety.

18 The EPA's draft carbon pollution rule for 

19 the first time declares nuclear power a core 

20 element of the nation's climate policy and pushes 

21 states to preserve, expand, and subsidize nuclear 

22 reactors. You seem to be pressuring states to 

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1 ensure that reactors that are now being built are 

2 completed, no matter what the cost, and I can 

3 tell you in South Carolina, we have had five rate 

4 hikes associated with V.C. Summer. We are 45 

5 percent coal, 55 percent nuclear. We now pay the 

6 highest energy cost in the whole South because of 

7 our commitment to nuclear power. So you cannot 

8 be pushing this. It's too expensive.

9 Overcommitment to nuclear power has 

10 ensured that our state has the highest cost, and 

11 in fact, the big energy users in our state have 

12 partnered with South Carolina in the latest 

13 challenge at the Public Service Commission about 

14 the cost overruns at V.C. Summer. So the energy 

15 users are very concerned about the cost of 

16 energy, and we have no solar. It's all nuclear.

17 So you are encouraging states to 

18 subsidize this instead of opening the door to 

19 other things.

20 I am going to move on because I know I am 

21 running out of time here.

22 MR. THOMPSON: Yes. Final thoughts?

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1 MS. CORBETT: I am just going to skip to 

2 the end here. I think you see where I am going 

3 here.

4 I will mention you have also ignored the 

5 vast consumptive water needs of nuclear, which is 

6 going to be a big problem in a global warming 

7 world.

8 So we want you to abandon your incentives 

9 and subsidies for nuclear power and instead focus 

10 on clean renewable energy.

11 You know, I'm old enough, and I'm not 

12 going to say how old, but I'm old enough to 

13 remember when President Kennedy said, "We're 

14 going to go to the Moon," and we all went, "Go to 

15 the Moon?" We went to the Moon 7 years later. 

16 We created a million products just to go to the 

17 Moon. We can do this. We can cut carbon. We 

18 can move away from fossil fuels. We can create a 

19 truly green clean energy economy.

20 Thank you.

21 [Applause and cheering.]

22 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Corbett and 

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1 Mr. Darst. Before you go, are there any 

2 questions?

3 [No audible response.]

4 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you both for your 

5 testimony. Thank you.

6 We are going to take a really quick 

7 10-minute break. If folks could be back at 4:25.

8 Before you leave, Julian McQueen and Bob 

9 Gale are going to be testifying when we come back 

10 from break.

11 [Recess taken from 4:15 to 4:25 p.m.]

12 MR. THOMPSON: Ladies and gentlemen, we 

13 are going to get started again, so if you could, 

14 grab a seat.

15 Again, I would like to invite Julian 

16 McQueen and Bob Gale.

17 [Pause.]

18 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, gentlemen, 

19 How are you?

20 MR. McQUEEN: Good afternoon.

21 MR. GALE: Good afternoon.

22 MR. THOMPSON: We would like to start 

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1 with you, Mr. McQueen. If you could, just state 

2 your name, spell it for the court reporter, and 

3 then you can begin your testimony.

4 MR. McQUEEN: Julian McQueen, 

5 J-u-l-i-a-n. Last name, McQueen, M-c-Q-u-e-e-n.

6 All right. So good afternoon, and thank 

7 you for the honor and privilege to be here. I'm 

8 so glad to be here today.

9 I am here representing an organization 

10 called Green for All, and Green for All is a 

11 national organization, a non-profit organization. 

12 Our mission is to help to develop an inclusive 

13 green economy strong enough to lift people out of 

14 poverty, and it's that mission that brings us 

15 here today, because I think the clean power rule, 

16 the Clean Power Plan, and the issues that we're 

17 looking at today are really the nexus of those 

18 two things, the environment and the economy.

19 At Green for All, we particularly focus 

20 on low-income communities and communities of 

21 color. That's our focus. That's who we work 

22 with, and that's who we work for.

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1 For that reason, it's even more important 

2 that we're here, because this rule has such a 

3 direct effect on the communities that we serve. 

4 When we talk about climate change and when we 

5 talk about carbon pollution that causes climate 

6 change, low-income communities and communities of 

7 color bear the burden of the choices we make on 

8 both the cause and the effects. So, globally and 

9 nationally, when you look at what's happening in 

10 terms of climate change, the severity of storms, 

11 increasing number of storms, it is poor 

12 communities that suffer from that who are less 

13 able to adapt to what's needed, what's happening, 

14 who is less able to leave a community in the time 

15 of urgency. That takes place globally and here 

16 in the United States.

17 Also, when we talk about how we are 

18 creating our energy, it's also low-income 

19 communities largely and communities of color that 

20 bear the burden of the choices that we make 

21 there. The NAACP came out with a report called 

22 "Energy Justice," and it states that 68 percent 

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1 of African Americans live within 30 miles of a 

2 coal-fired power plant, and what that means is 

3 that, also in the same report, one in six African 

4 American children experience asthma versus one in 

5 ten nationally, as the national average. That's 

6 almost twice as many. So we are really seeing 

7 poor communities and communities of color are 

8 bearing an undue and unjust and unfair burden 

9 when it comes to the choices we make around 

10 energy, and that's why this plan is so important. 

11 It is time to shift away from these energies, 

12 from this dirty energy, and it's time to shift 

13 towards clean energy.

14 It's a moral obligation. It's one that 

15 we all share, and it's one that we'll all benefit 

16 from if we do it and if we do it well.

17 I also think it's makes fiscal sense to 

18 begin to look at how we create our energy, 

19 especially when we take into account the cost of 

20 inaction. I think the cost of dealing with the 

21 effects of unmitigated climate change would make 

22 the cost of shifting away from dirty energy just 

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1 peanuts at best. Maybe not peanuts. Maybe 

2 peanut shells. It is almost incomprehensible, 

3 the cost, if we don't begin to try to address 

4 climate change. 

5 I think when you look at it from there, 

6 when you look at it as a health care issue, in 

7 2011, we spent $100 billion on health care issues 

8 related to coal, $100 billion in 1 year related 

9 to coal only. That is a huge amount of money, 

10 and so I think when you take into accounts things 

11 like that, shifting away makes good economic 

12 sense.

13 I think one of the big questions is how 

14 do we do it and what's there, and I don't have 

15 all the answers there. I think we have some 

16 really, really solid options, but what I do know 

17 is that if we get serious about our decision to 

18 move away from dirty energy, then we will get 

19 serious about innovation, and we will find the 

20 solutions that we need. I think we can do it 

21 quickly.

22 Somebody just mentioned that when we 

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1 decided to go to the Moon, we just did it, and it 

2 didn't take long. And we created a ton of 

3 products and services and industries around that. 

4 I think we can do the same thing.

5 In 1968, somebody mentioned we hold more 

6 computing power in our pockets with our cell 

7 phones than existed in the world in 1968. That's 

8 a pretty ridiculous fact, and I think with that 

9 in mind, it is outrageous to suggest that we 

10 can't figure out how to shift away from an 

11 energy, from coal, that's built this country. So 

12 I salute coal for doing that. I salute the 

13 people that have worked on all of our behalf to 

14 power this country, but it's time to move on . We 

15 need to work with the people that are currently 

16 working in coal to find solutions and move away 

17 from that.

18 Again, it's time. We have the 

19 responsibility to move away. We have the 

20 opportunity to innovate and create new and better 

21 jobs and more jobs and jobs that won't be 

22 poisoning our community and our world.

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1 Thank you very much for the opportunity 

2 to be here.

3 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. McQueen.

4 Mr. Gale.

5 MR. GALE: Thank you for requesting 

6 comments on this important proposal. Bob Gale, 

7 G-a-l-e. 

8 My name is Bob Gale, and I am the 

9 Ecologist and Public Lands Director with the 

10 Western North Carolina Alliance. Our 

11 organization advocates for healthy forests, clean 

12 air and water, and livable communities in the 23 

13 southern Appalachian Mountain counties of North 

14 Carolina. I am speaking on behalf of our staff, 

15 board of directors, and our 3,500 members and 

16 supporters.

17 Our organization supports EPA's proposed 

18 rule to cut carbon dioxide emissions from 

19 existing coal plants. Existing power plants are 

20 the largest source of the nation's carbon dioxide 

21 emissions accounting for 38 percent, much of 

22 which stems from aging coal-fired power plants. 

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1 In western North Carolina, the coal-fired 

2 plant in the Asheville area alone emits carbon 

3 dioxide equivalent to that produced by a 

4 half-a-million cars on the road annually. 

5 Cutting emissions from existing power plants is 

6 the most immediate way the U.S. can alleviate 

7 climate disruption. A lot has been said about 

8 this today, and others will, no doubt, offer 

9 similar comments tomorrow.

10 As an ecologist, I'm concerned about the 

11 impacts of CO2 on the natural environment. For 

12 example, there is a real possibility that the 

13 high-elevation spruce fir forests of the southern 

14 Appalachian Mountains will completely disappear 

15 as lower elevation species favored by a warming 

16 client replace them, and there are other impacts 

17 anticipated for other mountain forest habitats.

18 I work with federal, state, and local 

19 agencies, as well as other organizations and 

20 citizens, to restore the natural ecosystems on 

21 our public lands that are increasingly under 

22 threat from non-native invasive plants. These 

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1 plants are damaging a number of habitats which 

2 include rare, threatened, and endangered plant 

3 and animal species. Biologists are concerned 

4 about increasing levels of carbon dioxide because 

5 this actually favors the growth of many 

6 non-native invasive plants. Such plants already 

7 have a competitive advantage over native species. 

8 Besides lacking biological controls, they 

9 tolerate a wide variety of climatic conditions, 

10 including extremes in temperature and moisture, 

11 two conditions that are currently being 

12 exacerbated by carbon dioxide increase.

13 The increase in CO2 is even causing 

14 impacts to native species that are problematic 

15 for humans. The chemical compound, which causes 

16 allergic reactions from plants such as poison 

17 ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac has been 

18 increasing on toxicity with warmer temperatures 

19 over the last 30 years and probably longer.

20 A number of non-native aquatic species or 

21 invasive species are spread by water bodies, and 

22 their spread has greatly increased from flooding 

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1 brought about by catastrophic hurricanes and 

2 storms. Such events are predicted by climate 

3 change models based on increased carbon dioxide. 

4 That these increased events directly cost 

5 billions of dollars to the human environment is 

6 well known, but could they also be contributing 

7 harm to wildlife?

8 Recently, individuals from a population 

9 of waterfowl feeding on three non-native invasive 

10 water plants were observed to be unable to right 

11 themselves in water, walk upright on land, or 

12 even fly. Studies of their tissues revealed a 

13 toxin produced by a cyanobacteria that lives 

14 within the aquatic-invasive plants. This toxin 

15 attacked the myelin within the brains of these 

16 waterfowl. Even worse, because the sick birds 

17 could no longer escape from predators, bald 

18 eagles fed on them, suffered similar illness, and 

19 passed the toxin on to eaglets within their 

20 nests. This unfortunate event had never been 

21 documented.

22 The concern here is that such a scenario 

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1 and others like this could increase and add to 

2 all of the other impacts that unchecked levels of 

3 CO2 is bringing.

4 Please implement this proposal as quickly 

5 as possible not only for the human environment 

6 but for the natural environment, as well.

7 Thank you.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Gale.

9 Are there any questions for either Mr. 

10 McQueen or Mr. Gale?

11 [No audible response.]

12 MR. McQUEEN: Thank you.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Gentlemen, thank you both 

14 for your testimony. Thank you.

15 [Applause.]

16 MR. THOMPSON: At this time, I would like 

17 to invite Carol Judy and June Dean to please come 

18 forward.

19 [Pause.]

20 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, ladies, 

21 and thank you for coming.

22 We would like to start with Ms. Judy, 

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1 please.

2 MS. JUDY: Hi. I'm Carol Judy. That's 

3 J-u-d-y. It is my last name. I live in the 

4 Clear Fork Valley in Tennessee. It boundaries 

5 Kentucky. Pine Mountain and Cumberland Mountain 

6 formed the valley that I live in, so that's two 

7 states, four counties, unincorporated 

8 communities.

9 I want to thank EPA because it's very,

10 very seldom we really feel like that government 

11 gets to hear our voice, so I appreciate this 

12 opportunity.

13 I wanted to know what speakers were part 

14 of, so I tried to list some that were relevant. 

15 I am a participant in the Sierra Club. I am a 

16 member of the Tennessee Clean Water Network, 

17 CWEET, which is Clean Water Expected in East 

18 Tennessee. I am also a member of Rural 

19 Development Leadership Network fellow. You can 

20 look it up, RDLN.org, online. And I am an active 

21 10-year participate with Mountain Justice, and I 

22 also participate with App Voices and Alliance for 

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1 Appalachia.

2 In my community, we are historically the 

3 one area of our state where we have mountaintop 

4 removal coal mining, and what I've discovered is 

5 we also have a major -- you know, there is a lot 

6 of the elements of colonialism that are still in 

7 the makeup of the culture of my community.

8 I am also a root digger. So I get out in 

9 the mountains, and I dig roots. That's 

10 non-timber forest products. These products 

11 support a $40-billion-a-year industry. 

12 I am often confused by the contradictions 

13 that I see that are in where I live at, because 

14 WHO, the World Health Organization, part of the 

15 United Nations, tells me that the mountains 

16 produce 80 percent of the world's potable, 

17 taste-able, drinkable, living waters. They 

18 produce 100 percent of it where I live. 

19 We are the headwaters for the Upper 

20 Cumberland Watershed, and that heads down to 

21 Nashville and goes into the Mississippi and then 

22 into the Gulf of Mexico. I would like water 

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1 healthy from its source, so the more we can do 

2 with our mountains, the better water is going 

3 down stream.

4 I also know that where I am at is in 

5 Central Appalachia, and Central Appalachia has 

6 two contradictory identities nationally, and one 

7 is we are a temperate rainforest. We have over 

8 1,000 medicinal and culinary herbs that help 

9 support a $40-billion-a-year industry. We are 

10 also one of the four persistent areas of 

11 generational poverty. These are contradictions 

12 to me, because how can we have so much wealth and 

13 yet be considered generational poverty?

14 I think that we need to do better jobs of 

15 keeping our mountains whole because coal, gas, 

16 and oil are extractive industries, and they also 

17 waste more water with fracking because they push 

18 that down in, so your water is at risk two 

19 different ways. Your watershed is at risk, and 

20 your waters that are being used in the mining are 

21 also being affected.

22 So I think the EPA for us to have a 

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1 future for our kids, grandkids -- and I am a 

2 great-grandmother, and I want my kids to have 

3 work, so I think that the EPA has an opportunity 

4 to take strong leadership for the generations to 

5 come. 

6 I've heard the carbon emissions need to 

7 be reduced by 2030, and what I know is I probably 

8 won't be here, but I want my grandkids and great 

9 grandkids to have good work that keeps the 

10 mountains whole, because the one thing cities 

11 can't do is create air and water. Those are 

12 created by the mountains. We need to become 

13 rural and urban together again.

14 Cities can deliver water. They can try 

15 to clean it up and protect and try to clean up 

16 air. The EPA should be the agency that takes 

17 strong leadership in this, from my perspective, 

18 because we are rural and urban, not or.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Judy.

21 Ms. Dean.

22 MS. DEEN: Hi. My name is June Deen, 

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1 J-u-n-e, D-e-e-n. I am the Senior VP of Public 

2 Policy and Health Promotion for the American Lung 

3 Association in Georgia, North Carolina, and South 

4 Carolina. I want to thank you for providing an 

5 opportunity for me to speak today.

6 As many of you know, the Lung 

7 Association's mission is to improve lung health 

8 and prevent lung disease. The American Lung 

9 Association believes we need strong carbon 

10 standards to protect the lung health of everyone, 

11 especially those who suffer from lung disease.

12 Carbon pollution leads to warmer 

13 temperatures that can enhance the conditions for 

14 harmful air pollutants, including ozone and 

15 particle pollution. Scientists warn that climate 

16 change is likely to increase the risk of 

17 unhealthy air in large parts of the United 

18 States, leading to more unhealthy air days than 

19 we would otherwise have.

20 More pollution means more childhood 

21 asthma attacks and complications for those with 

22 lung disease, including increased risk of 

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1 premature death. 

2 Air pollution also affects people with 

3 cardiovascular diseases, diabetics, and 

4 low-income families. Children growing up where 

5 ozone levels are high may risk having lung 

6 diseases later in life.

7 Out West, we already see the effects of 

8 devastating drought from the changes in weather 

9 patterns and heat. The drought threatens human 

10 health in many ways. Wildfires and dust storms 

11 blow fine particles that people inhale deep in 

12 their lungs, triggering asthma attacks and heart 

13 attacks.

14 People do their best to prepare for these 

15 events and to protect themselves, but we really 

16 need to prevent the problems in the first place 

17 by reducing the carbon pollution that is changing 

18 the Earth's climate.

19 We are committed to fighting carbon 

20 pollution because it helps us save lives and 

21 improve lung health. If we follow the steps 

22 outlined in the Clean Power plan, we can prevent 

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1 up to 4,100 deaths in 2020, and more each year 

2 after that, avoiding up to 6,600 premature deaths 

3 in 2030 when all the steps are in place. We can 

4 prevent up to 100,000 childhood asthma attacks in 

5 2020, rising to prevent 150,000 attacks, 10 years 

6 later.

7 We need to have a strong Clean Power Plan 

8 in place to cut carbon pollution and lessen the 

9 burdens on the health of millions of Americans. 

10 We urge EPA to adopt standards that will ensure 

11 we do as much as we can to fight these threats 

12 and protect public health.

13 Thank you.

14 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Dean.

15 Are there any questions for Ms. Judy or 

16 Ms. Dean?

17 [No audible response.]

18 MR. THOMPSON: Ladies, thank you again 

19 for your testimony. Thank you very much.

20 [Applause.]

21 [Pause.]

22 MR. THOMPSON: At this time, I would like 

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1 to invite Rustina Mullins and Daniel Mullins to 

2 please come forward.

3 [Pause.]

4 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon.

5 MS. MULLINS: Good afternoon.

6 MR. THOMPSON: I thought there was one 

7 more with you. Okay.

8 If you would, just state your name and 

9 spell it for the court reporter, and then begin 

10 your testimony.

11 MS. MULLINS: My name is Rustina Mullins, 

12 R-u-s-t-i-n-a, M-u-l-l-i-n-s.

13 Coal mining has been a part of our family 

14 for several generations. My husband was the 

15 fourth generation in his family to mine coal in 

16 the underground coal mines of Appalachia, but for 

17 all the paychecks and benefits, coal mining has 

18 come at a greater cost to our family.

19 The health impacts that are being tied to 

20 coal extraction forced us to uproot our children 

21 from our ancestral home in Virginia. I watched 

22 the spring which was our family's water source 

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1 for four generations turn orange after a coal 

2 company used explosives to blast off the mountain 

3 above us in order to extract the coal. The 

4 acidic water laden with heavy metals now joins 

5 the drainages of a 100-year legacy of coal 

6 extraction, both surface and underground, which 

7 comprises the watershed of the local municipal 

8 water supply.

9 I am not a scientist, but I am a mother, 

10 and this water is pumped into homes throughout 

11 the county. It is drank by nursing mothers and 

12 mixed in the bottles of formula for newborn 

13 babies. Despite what the industry says, coal 

14 extraction has not been kind to the people of 

15 Appalachia. Too many of our friends and family, 

16 both young and old, are getting sick with cancer 

17 and other diseases. Our children need a better 

18 future.

19 I believe the Clean Power Plan will help 

20 to reduce the negative health effects, health 

21 impacts affecting the people of Appalachia by 

22 reducing the demand for coal that is being 

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1 extracted from the mountains. I see the Clean 

2 Power Plan as a way of progressing Appalachia 

3 into a better future, one of economic 

4 diversification with job opportunities for coal 

5 miners in both energy efficiency and renewable 

6 energies.

7 However, in order for this plan to work, 

8 we must put energy efficiency in top priority. 

9 Energy efficiency can reduce our carbon emissions 

10 by decreasing the demand for electricity, in turn 

11 lessoning the amount of coal being burned at 

12 power plants, thereby saving what natural 

13 resources we have left, such as the diverse 

14 rainforests of the Appalachian Mountains, and 

15 helping improve the health of the people of 

16 Appalachia.

17 Energy efficiency will create jobs across 

18 the nation. We need to start thinking of future 

19 generations and what they need. The idea of 

20 putting things off until tomorrow has come to an 

21 end because our children, grandchildren, 

22 great-grandchildren are more important than our 

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1 wants of today.

2 The Clean Power Plan must be a promise of 

3 clean water, clean air, and innovative job 

4 opportunities for future generations.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Mullins.

7 [Applause.]

8 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, sir. And your name 

9 is?

10 DANIEL MULLINS: My name is Daniel 

11 Mullins. I am 12 years old, and I am in seventh 

12 grade.

13 MR. THOMPSON: Daniel, spell your name 

14 for us.

15 DANIEL MULLINS: D-a-n-i-e-l, 

16 M-u-l-l-i-n-s.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, sir.

18 DANIEL MULLINS: There was a day I went 

19 exploring up in the woods behind my house in 

20 Clintwood. I came upon the old family spring, 

21 and it was all orange. I asked my dad what the 

22 orange was. He said it was sulfur and iron. Dad 

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1 said they mountaintop-removed above our home 

2 before I was born to get to the coal, and after 

3 the first blast, the spring became acidic and 

4 turned orange. He said it used to be where our 

5 family got its water until the mining started.

6 Since then, I have learned there are many 

7 more springs impacted like this. I have learned 

8 that according to the EPA, over 2,000 miles of 

9 streams have been buried and permanently polluted 

10 when coal companies destroyed over 500 mountains 

11 to get to the coal.

12 I learned that runoff from strip mines, 

13 abandoned underground mines, and even coal sludge 

14 dumps from coal tipples all make its way into our 

15 rivers, lakes, and including the Flannagan 

16 Reservoir where the people get their water in 

17 Dickenson County.

18 Because of all the mining, Mom and Dad 

19 decided to move us away from our home. They were 

20 afraid it was not safe anymore. They said people 

21 in our county were getting sick a lot. Even my 

22 cousin --

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1 [Time clock sounds.]

2 MR. THOMPSON: Please continue, Daniel.

3 DANIEL MULLINS: Even my cousin who got 

4 cancer when he was 5 and had to go to St. Jude's.

5 If we want Appalachia to be a safe place 

6 to live, we need to start being smarter as a 

7 nation about how we use energy. It's not just 

8 about making Appalachia a safer place, either. 

9 It is anywhere fossil fuels are extracted and 

10 burned where children who live in these areas 

11 have a higher chance of getting sick.

12 I have seen natural gas wells in 

13 Appalachia too. I've seen the big trucks hauling 

14 poisoned water everywhere, and even in 

15 Pennsylvania where we visited this summer.

16 The world does not need any more fossil 

17 fuels. We need to life more sustainably, using 

18 less energy and developing more ways to create 

19 clean energy.

20 We can help this world instead of harming 

21 it. We can start now by realizing how much we 

22 are wasting every second of every day. I just 

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1 want to see a future where the water is clean to 

2 drink and our air is clear to breathe and we 

3 still have mountains to play on.

4 We kids need this Clean Power Plan. We 

5 need to limit carbon emissions that are warming 

6 the whole planet and to protect places like our 

7 home from being polluted and destroyed.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Daniel.

9 DANIEL MULLINS: You're welcome.

10 [Applause.]

11 MR. THOMPSON: How old are you, and what 

12 grade are you in, Daniel?

13 DANIEL MULLINS: How old am I going to 

14 be?

15 MR. THOMPSON: How old are you now?

16 DANIEL MULLINS: I'm 12 right now.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Twelve. And what grade 

18 are you in?

19 DANIEL MULLINS: I'm in seventh.

20 MR. THOMPSON: Is Alexandria your sister?

21 DANIEL MULLINS: Yes.

22 MR. THOMPSON: You guys both did an 

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1 awesome job today. Thank you for your testimony.

2 DANIEL MULLINS: Thank you.

3 MR. THOMPSON: And thank you, Mom.

4 MS. MULLINS: Thank you.

5 MR. THOMPSON: Any questions?

6 [No audible response.]

7 MR. THOMPSON: Again, thank you very 

8 much.

9 MS. MULLINS: Thank you.

10 DANIEL MULLINS: You're welcome.

11 [Applause.]

12 MR. THOMPSON: At this time, I would like 

13 to ask Elizabeth Barger, if that's B-a-r-g-e-r, 

14 and Jeannie -- I can't tell if this is --

15 MS. CERULEAN: Cerulean.

16 MR. THOMPSON: That's it.

17 [Pause.]

18 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, ladies. 

19 Good afternoon to the both of you. We are going 

20 to start with -- and that is B-a-r-g-e-r, Barger; 

21 is that correct? 

22 MS. BARGER: Barger. Yeah, Barger.

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1 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, ma'am. Okay, we'd 

2 like to start with you.

3 MS. BARGER: Okay.

4 MR. THOMPSON: Please state and spell 

5 your name for the court reporter, and then you 

6 can begin your testimony.

7 MS. BARGER: All right. My name is 

8 Elizabeth Barger, B-a-r-g-e-r, and I am from 

9 Summertown, Tennessee, and I really appreciate 

10 being able to talk to you all.

11 I do have more information to back up 

12 some of the things that I am going to say, but it 

13 would take more than 5 minutes to do all that, so 

14 we will send that on to you.

15 MR. THOMPSON: Excellent.

16 MS. BARGER: I just have to say that 

17 clean coal is a dirty joke, and it's second only 

18 in pollution to nuclear and natural gas. And I 

19 say this because of some of the things that I 

20 will send to you later, but I wanted to add a 

21 little art to this situation.

22 I have been writing sonnets, and so I 

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1 have one on fracking. It's called "No Frack." 

2 It says, "Children are crying at the death of 

3 trees. The creek in the valley is not singing. 

4 While we work for a frack-free Tennessee or 

5 suffer sorrow, silence is bringing. Under the 

6 curse of interesting times, we laugh at the old 

7 wisdom we forgot and hear what he struggle is all 

8 for naught. We can't find reason or difficult 

9 rhymes. I understand about lighter than air. 

10 The concept is clear enough for you to see, but 

11 when we cry danger, we don't show care. When 

12 blowing shale to set dinosaurs free, why the need 

13 to destroy our Mother? It's not as if we can get 

14 another."

15 So the other thing that has me very upset 

16 is the fact that we are bringing tar sands mining 

17 into the United States. We have already seen the 

18 terrible toll that it's taken in Alberta, Canada, 

19 and we know that taking this tar sands, this 

20 bitumen out of the Earth will add to carbon 

21 terribly. And we also know that fracking adds to 

22 methane in the air.

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1 So the first people lived cooperatively, 

2 and they used to gather all their fat together 

3 for winter and gathered it in the middle of the 

4 village. If somebody came and stole it, they 

5 were called a "fat taker." So this is about tar 

6 sands mining.

7 "A toxic pulsing worm diseased too long 

8 pushes hot death through the living Heartland. 

9 The guardian soul cries out, "This is wrong," and 

10 struggles to stop the destructive hand. Crushed 

11 underbidding of violent greed, sacred Earth 

12 battered, bleeds an oil puss. What is this 

13 monster? What is the need? Killing the green 

14 for pottage is not just. Cannot drink bitumen. 

15 Can't eat. Money is not food. Safety is a joke. 

16 Promised jobs, that's a lie. Families are 

17 choking. The water is no good. To enrich a few, 

18 so many must die. Corrupt and careless, the 

19 rapers must fail. Only the people aroused can 

20 prevail."

21 And that's what we need. We need to 

22 really un that we can stop this. Nuclear is one 

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1 of the dirtiest energies that we can have. It 

2 kills from the beginning to the end. The 

3 fracking of the aquifers in the West is poisoning 

4 those aquifers to get uranium. Mining for 

5 uranium, the tailings, I have seen the children 

6 playing on the tailings, and I know that the 

7 incidence of leukemia and other cancers is very 

8 high in the Navajo Nation, some of the first 

9 people.

10 And then we bring that to use coal and 

11 natural gas to refine the uranium, which is much 

12 more energy than the uranium produces, and then 

13 with the waste, we don't have any place to put 

14 it. And it lasts for a billion years. So it's 

15 ridiculous to call nuclear energy clean.

16 Thank you very much.

17 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Barger.

18 Please.

19 MS. CERULEAN: My name is Jeannie 

20 Cerulean, J-e-a-n-n-i-e, C-e-r-u-l-e-a-n.

21 I just want to talk about the climate for 

22 innovation that the Environmental Protection 

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1 Agency could create, and I believe that this is a 

2 window of opportunity for the Environmental 

3 Protection Agency to establish what your agency 

4 is really going to be capable of doing in the 

5 future.

6 Even though there's this idea of just 

7 filtering some of the pollution, you know, like 

8 let's put a filter on that pollution of these 

9 plants, I know that what you are hearing is a lot 

10 of people saying, "Well, it's more than just 

11 filtering some pollution." We actually want to 

12 create a channel, and we want you to help create 

13 this channel that innovation can just flow out 

14 and begin to give us some of the things that we 

15 actually need.

16 And a lot of these solution side 

17 activities that people could do in our country, 

18 this is something that by creating a really solid 

19 standard and a really great template, that when 

20 states come together or regions and they take a 

21 look at your rule and they take a look at the 

22 template you are suggesting and they are like, 

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1 "Oh. Well, this is a pretty good template, let's 

2 follow it," they are going to decide based on 

3 your guide what to do. They are looking to you 

4 for leadership, and so this is a great 

5 opportunity for you to really lead. I think that 

6 most people in the Environmental Protection 

7 Agency probably went to college as environmental 

8 scientists, so I feel like maybe we are telling 

9 you stuff that you already know in some cases.

10 So I just want you to think about the 

11 future of the Environmental Protection Agency and 

12 what you will permit, because that's what you do. 

13 You write permits for things to happen. So will 

14 you permit us to have health? Will you permit us 

15 to have innovation through the strength of what 

16 you are going to create? And I hope that it will 

17 be more than you've already written and that you 

18 will take our comments into consideration.

19 I want you to promise me that you will 

20 not permit caps on renewables. All these 

21 different states have a cap on renewables. So we 

22 just like turn and face the person who is putting 

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1 solar on their business or solar on their house, 

2 and they are told, "Oh, I'm sorry. We've reached 

3 the 5 percent that we've put aside for 

4 renewables." So we need to get rid of the caps 

5 and hope that will be part of your template to 

6 just have no caps on renewables.

7 And then would you also promise me that 

8 you will not permit fracking? Because it 

9 pollutes our water, and we need that water to 

10 drink.

11 And I would like for you also to not 

12 permit any new nuclear to go online and take all 

13 the money that was budgeted to complete these 

14 plants and put that exact amount of money into 

15 taking apart the plants, because it costs a whole 

16 lot to decommission a plant, so let's just go for 

17 that now. No new nukes. No new nukes. Like 

18 President Reagan knew that, and everybody in 

19 Japan knows that, and everybody on our West Coast 

20 knows that. And we don't want any more.

21 So please do not permit mountaintop 

22 removal or surface mining. That is a whole lot 

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1 of stuff for you not to permit, but if you look 

2 at the faces, like Elizabeth was talking about, 

3 look at the faces of Native Americans who have no 

4 elders because they're all gone. At 45 years 

5 old, there's no one left in the tribe because 

6 they are mining uranium, and they are dying. 

7 We love St. Jude's. They have done an 

8 amazing thing, but they would really like it if 

9 we would stop all of the nuclear pollution that 

10 is giving children leukemia in this country, and 

11 that is proven. Children who live within 5 miles 

12 of a nuclear pollution are more likely to have 

13 leukemia. So it's cool that St. Luke's figured 

14 out how to save their lives, but yeah.

15 So, you know, if you would also face the 

16 people in Appalachia that are being dumped on, 

17 they are dumping our forests into our water. 

18 They are destroying this culture, the sky, the 

19 children, and so don't dump on those people, 

20 either.

21 So what would you permit? What I would 

22 like for you to permit is that this solution 

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1 side, this flow, that you could help put into 

2 this template.

3 [Time clock sounds.]

4 MS. CERULEAN: Could I just say my list 

5 really quickly?

6 MR. THOMPSON: Sure.

7 MS. CERULEAN: Okay. Number one, 

8 efficient and trying to like come up with 

9 programs to reward states or regions that do 

10 these efficiency measures, so they would get the 

11 packages for helping, for construction, and we 

12 know that we can use passive solar and geothermal 

13 construction, and that will save on the energy 

14 that we need.

15 Also, what Canada had tried that has 

16 worked really well is Sun Comes Up Solar. So it 

17 is 3.5 cents a kilowatt-hour, and it is just 

18 putting solar without batteries on everything, 

19 anything and everything, and it cuts the baseline

20 in half, because every day that all that solar 

21 runs with no batteries will effectively cut the 

22 baseline in half.

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1 And then the other thing is there's a lot 

2 of innovation in universities, and I'm a 

3 professor at a university. I am seeing a lot of 

4 great innovation through research, and so we 

5 could do some public-private partnerships in 

6 which we take these good ideas and this research 

7 and we bring it into reality.

8 One of those examples is taking river 

9 currents and turning that into currents of 

10 electricity.

11 Thank you.

12 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Ms. Cerulean.

13 Are there any questions for either Ms. 

14 Barger or Ms. Cerulean?

15 MR. HUTSON: I just wanted to ask where 

16 you are from because you didn't --

17 MS. CERULEAN: I am from Chattanooga, 

18 Tennessee, and I teach at the University of 

19 Tennessee at Chattanooga.

20 MR. HUTSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

21 MR. THOMPSON: All right. Well, ladies, 

22 thank you both for your testimony. Thank you 

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1 very much.

2 [Applause.]

3 MR. THOMPSON: I would like to at this 

4 time invite Taylor Allred and Patti Blevins.

5 [Pause.]

6 MR. THOMPSON: Good afternoon, folks.

7 MR. ALLRED: Good afternoon.

8 MR. THOMPSON: Thanks for coming.

9 MR. ALLRED: Thank you for having us. My 

10 name is Taylor Allred. That is T-a-y-l-o-r, 

11 A-l-l-r-e-d. I am here speaking on behalf of the 

12 Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, or SACE.

13 SACE appreciates this opportunity to 

14 provide oral comments to the EPA on the proposed 

15 Clean Power Plan. Today, my comments will focus 

16 on energy efficiency.

17 I would like to start by saying that SACE 

18 appreciates the EPA's use of energy efficiency as 

19 a building block in the proposed rule. SACE 

20 applauds the EPA's acknowledgement that energy 

21 efficiency is an abundant resource that can be 

22 used to reduce carbon emissions while also saving 

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1 people money on their utility bills.

2 SACE also appreciates that the EPA has 

3 proposed state-level efficiency goals that will 

4 significantly increase the level of energy 

5 efficiency in the Southeast.

6 The proposed cumulative goals for 

7 southeastern states will save approximately 10 

8 percent of retail electric sales by 2029. SACE 

9 believes that these goals are not only achievable 

10 but also fairly conservative compared to the 

11 region's full energy efficiency potential.

12 SACE believes that maximizing energy 

13 efficiency impacts is essential for our nation 

14 and particularly for southeastern states for 

15 several reasons. 

16 First, the United States as a whole 

17 currently fails to lead in energy efficiency. In 

18 a recent Energy Efficiency Scorecard published by 

19 the American Council for an Energy-Efficient 

20 Economy, or ACEEE, the U.S. is ranked 13th out of 

21 the 16 largest economies. The scorecard 

22 considers energy-efficiency policies and programs 

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1 covering several different categories, including 

2 buildings, industry and transportation, and data 

3 on overall energy use.

4 Our country and our region cannot afford 

5 to fall behind on energy efficiency. Among the 

6 nations with higher energy-efficiency rankings in 

7 the U.S. are Germany, China, India, and South 

8 Korea, all of which enjoy a competitive advantage 

9 by being able to produce goods and services using 

10 less energy.

11 Moreover, southeastern states have lagged 

12 behind in energy efficiency in the U.S. In 

13 ACEEE's state-level Energy Efficiency Scorecard, 

14 not a single southeastern state is ranked in the 

15 top 30.

16 Consumers in the Southeast also have some 

17 of the highest electricity bills in the country. 

18 Recent data from the Energy Information 

19 Administration indicates that 8 out of the 15 

20 states with the highest average monthly 

21 electricity bills are in the Southeast.

22 High electricity bills combined with low 

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1 median incomes result in a higher than average 

2 financial burden for southeastern families, and 

3 U.S. Census data shows that southeastern states 

4 make up 9 out of the 15 states with the lowest 

5 median incomes.

6 It is SACE's understanding that 

7 energy-efficiency measures that have been put 

8 into place after the proposed rule was released 

9 may count toward the initial annual goals.

10 SACE applauds the EPA for allowing early 

11 action on energy efficiency to count toward the 

12 goals, and SACE has encouraged southeastern 

13 utilities to consider this factor as they make 

14 decisions about energy efficiency investments 

15 today.

16 Energy efficiency will also help the 

17 economy in several ways. To begin with, energy 

18 efficiency creates a lot of jobs. A study by 

19 Southface, a Georgia-based organization focused 

20 on green building services, they found that over 

21 4,100 Georgians were employed full-time in the 

22 energy-efficiency and building sciences sector in 

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1 2013.

2 In addition to direct job creation, 

3 energy efficiency puts more money in consumers' 

4 pockets, which drives economic growth and further 

5 job creation.

6 Lower utility bills also position local 

7 businesses to be more profitable and create even 

8 more jobs.

9 SACE is also aware of the EPA's request 

10 for comments on several other issues, including 

11 increasing the states' savings targets to 2 

12 percent per year to reflect the impact of energy13 efficiency strategies outside of the utilities 

14 sphere, such as building efficiency codes and 

15 state appliance standards.

16 SACE looks forward to commenting on this 

17 and other topics in the coming weeks. Thank you 

18 for your time.

19 MR. THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Allred.

20 Please state your name and spell it for 

21 the court reporter.

22 MS. BLEVINS: My name is Patti, 

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1 P-a-t-t-i, Blevins, B-l-e-v-i-n-s.

2 Hi. I am with Johns Manville in Winder, 

3 Georgia. I am the Health Safety Environment 

4 Manager, and we've been making fiberglass 

5 insulation since 1969. It is about an hour 

6 northeast of here.

7 Johns Manville as a corporation is part 

8 of the North American Insulation Manufacturers 

9 Association, NAIMA, and we strongly agree with 

10 EPA that the end-use energy-efficiency 

11 enhancements can substantially reduce electricity 

12 usage and the emissions generated to provide that 

13 electricity.

14 Regardless of the amount of greenhouse 

15 gas emissions to be reduced by EPA Section 

16 111(d), energy enhancements can be a way to 

17 achieve immediate and cost-effective emissions 

18 reductions in the utility sector.

19 Because 40 percent of all energy is used 

20 in heating and cooling homes and buildings, there 

21 are many opportunities for energy savings and the 

22 corresponding emissions reductions. Energy 

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1 efficiency also supports growth, what I said 

2 before.

3 The American Council for Energy-Efficient 

4 Economy recently completed a study of the 

5 energy-efficiency savings that can be achieved in 

6 each state, the cost and the benefits of such 

7 investments and the policies and the impact of 

8 these efficiency investments on employment and 

9 grow state product. 

10 And reducing emissions in the utilities 

11 sector has several important co-benefits, 

12 including improvements to grid reliability and 

13 public health.

14 Johns Manville is working with others in 

15 our industry to update a 2003 Harvard Study that 

16 quantified the public health improvements from

17 retrofitting all under-insulated homes in the 

18 U.S. to current model energy codes. The 

19 researchers will be investigating both the 

20 mortality and morbidity improvements that 

21 accompany utility emissions reductions.

22 The results of the update will be 

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1 available in time to include in our formal 

2 comments, written comments to EPA.

3 While we agree with including 

4 energy-efficiency enhancements as a method to 

5 achieve emissions reductions, we do have several 

6 suggestions that we would like to make.

7 First, we would suggest that the proposal 

8 encourage early emissions reductions through 

9 early deployment of end-use energy-efficiency 

10 enhancements. The proposal, as written, really 

11 focuses on the compliance period between 2020 and 

12 2030 and does not adequately credit early action 

13 from early enhancement, energy-efficient projects 

14 or even renewable energy projects.

15 Second, we would suggest that 

16 energy-efficiency enhancements can last well 

17 longer than 10 years. For example, passive 

18 energy efficiency improvements to homes and 

19 building envelopes, like insulation or air 

20 ceiling, will last for the life of the building 

21 and with little or no maintenance. This is in 

22 contrast to other more active improvements like 

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1 HVAC refrigeration equipment and things like 

2 that.

3 Third, we would suggest advanced energy 

4 codes in the energy-efficiency building block as 

5 an important way to achieve energy savings.

6 Lastly, we would like to remove any 

7 ambiguity and specifically refer to insulation as 

8 a method to achieve energy efficiency, especially 

9 in buildings.

10 We estimate that all insulation currently 

11 in place in homes and building in the U.S. 

12 reduces the amount of CO2 emissions by 780 million 

13 tons per year. This is the equivalent to over 

14 150 coal-fired power plants or the electricity 

15 used by over 90 million homes in 1 year.

16 Thanks very much for this opportunity.

17 MR. THOMPSON: And thank you.

18 Are there any questions?

19 MR. HUTSON: My question is just, Could 

20 you say again the company that you represent?

21 MS. BLEVINS: Johns Manville.

22 MR. HUTSON: Manville Johns. Okay.

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1 MS. BLEVINS: The "s" is with the 

2 "Johns."

3 MS. MILLER: I have a question for Mr. 

4 Allred, and I hope I am not putting you on the 

5 spot by asking this. But somebody earlier today 

6 was talking about the energy-efficiency goals and 

7 how they felt like it shouldn't be a national 

8 standard, it should very state by state. Do you 

9 have any thoughts on that?

10 MR. ALLRED: As far as the flexibility 

11 built into the goal, speaking on my own behalf 

12 without kind of referencing an official SACE 

13 policy, I would say that it's helpful to build a 

14 broad consensus by building in a degree of 

15 flexibility for states to meet the goals. I 

16 think as a starting point, it's helpful for 

17 getting initial results now.

18 MR. THOMPSON: Well, again, thank you 

19 both for your testimony here. Thank you very 

20 much for your testimony.

21 MR. ALLRED: Thank you.

22 MR. THOMPSON: Folks, at this time, I 

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1 think we are going to break for dinner. We are 

2 going to return to Room A at 6:20. Thank you.

3 [Dinner recess taken from 5:20 to 6:20 

4 p.m.]

5 MS. TONEY: Good evening, everyone. 

6 Thank you for joining us for this evening's 

7 session, and we appreciate your patience. My 

8 name is Heather McTeer Toney. I am the Regional 

9 Administrator for Region 4 of the Environmental 

10 Protection Agency here in the Southeast Region, 

11 and it is certainly our pleasure to have you here 

12 at our Public Hearing this evening.

13 Joining me on the panel this evening are 

14 Julia Miller, who is an energy efficiency expert 

15 for the Office of Air and Radiation out of 

16 Washington, D.C., and Carol Kemker, who is our 

17 Region 4 Air and Pesticides Toxics Management 

18 Division Deputy Director. Thank you, ladies, for 

19 joining me on the panel today.

20 We are here today to listen to your 

21 comments on two proposed rules to reduce carbon 

22 pollution from power plants that EPA announced in 

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1 June of this year.

2 Now, power plants, just as a little 

3 background information for you, again, on our 

4 purpose, power plants are the largest source of 

5 carbon pollution in the U.S. accounting for 

6 roughly a third of all domestic greenhouse gas 

7 emissions.

8 The first rule is EPA's Proposed Clean 

9 Power Plan for Existing Power Plants. This 

10 proposal consists of two main parts: the 

11 state-specific goals to lower carbon pollution 

12 from the power plants and guidelines to states 

13 to develop their plans for meeting the goals. 

14 This proposal gives states flexibility in 

15 determining how to meet their goals, and states 

16 will choose what goes into their plans that shows 

17 how they will achieve the needed goals by 2030.

18 The second rule is EPA's proposed rule to 

19 address the Carbon Dioxide Emissions from 

20 Modified and Reconstructed Power Plants. This 

21 rule would set emissions limits for two groups of 

22 power plants, those that make physical or 

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1 operational changes that increase the plant's 

2 maximum achievable hourly rate of emissions and 

3 those that replace components to such an extent 

4 that the new components exceed 50 percent of the 

5 capital cost of an entirely new comparable 

6 facility.

7 Now, if you would like more details on 

8 either of these plans and programs, please visit 

9 our registration and materials table that is 

10 located right outside of the doors, and we have 

11 materials that are available for you.

12 Let me also take this time to remind you 

13 that if you have not registered as the EPA 

14 registration desk, please make sure that you stop 

15 at the registration desk and sign your name, as 

16 we want to make sure that we are accounting for 

17 everyone who has joined us here today.

18 Now, this is one of four Public Hearings 

19 that's taking place across the nation. There are 

20 also Public Hearings that are taking place in 

21 Washington, D.C.; Denver, Colorado; and 

22 Pittsburgh. We are very, very excited and really 

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1 appreciate you taking out the time, especially 

2 this evening, to come in and share your comments.

3 All of the comments are being transcribed 

4 and will be a part of the record, so there are a 

5 few things that we would just like to run through 

6 very quickly with you as to how we are going to 

7 proceed.

8 If you are a speaker, you were given a 

9 room letter, and the room letter will go along 

10 with where you are to be speaking. This is Room 

11 A, and so you should have that letter "A" with 

12 your speaking assignment. This would be a good 

13 time to check and make sure that you are in the 

14 correct room, and if you are not, we won't hold 

15 it against you if you have to leave and go into 

16 Room B.

17 How we are going to proceed with the 

18 speakers will be, as follows. I am going to call 

19 the speakers up in pairs. When your name is 

20 called, please come to the table here at the 

21 front of the room. When I call on you to speak, 

22 please state your name, and spell it for the 

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1 court reporter. Your comments, again, are being 

2 transcribed and will be included in the record of 

3 comments for the proposed rule.

4 Each speaker will have 5 minutes to give 

5 your comments, and we do have lights here to help 

6 you know how much time you have left to speak. 

7 When your light turns from green to yellow, that 

8 means that you have 1 minute left to speak. When 

9 it turns to from yellow to red, that means that 

10 your time to speak has ended. If you have any 

11 additional comments that you have not made at 

12 that time, please make sure that you leave those 

13 comments with us because we do want them to be a 

14 part of the record; however, we do also want to 

15 make sure that we respect everyone's time and 

16 that we get an opportunity to hear each person 

17 fairly.

18 Again, we don't want you to feel like you 

19 don't have enough time to make all of your 

20 comments, but we are accepting written comments 

21 at the table that, again, is located right 

22 outside of the doors. So please, again, make 

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1 sure that you leave us your written comments, if 

2 you have brought those, or if there is something 

3 additional maybe that you would like to say, you 

4 can write those and leave those with us today, as 

5 well.

6 Finally, we are here to listen today. We 

7 may have a clarifying question of you. If we 

8 have a clarifying question, it will not bite into 

9 your time. It is simply just to make sure that 

10 we are understanding what your statement is or 

11 maybe the name of an organization or something to 

12 that extent.

13 We also ask that, out of respect for all 

14 of the speakers, when you are finished speaking, 

15 if you would, please stay at the table until the 

16 person has finished speaking, and then we will 

17 call the next pair of speakers up, as well.

18 This has been a wonderful session, I will 

19 tell you, we've been hearing, and I know a lot of 

20 our panelists and a lot of the people who have 

21 been listening here today have had the pleasure 

22 of enjoying wonderful Southern hospitality, and 

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1 that everyone has been very respectful of all of 

2 the speakers. And I know that that will only 

3 continue this evening, and that we will have an 

4 opportunity to listen and hear everyone's 

5 comments fairly and equally.

6 With that, I think we have gotten 

7 everything ready. We have our timer ready. We 

8 are scheduled to go until 8 p.m. tonight. We are 

9 going to try to make sure we get everybody's 

10 comments in, and so if we need to go a little 

11 past that, we will. But just so you know, we are 

12 scheduled to go to 8 p.m. this evening.

13 If you have any questions, please feel 

14 free to see any of the staff at the registration 

15 desk. They will be able to help you, and if you 

16 need assistance in getting up the steps, we do 

17 have staff in the room that can assist you if you 

18 need that, as well.

19 Again, thank you for taking out the time, 

20 and we are going to go ahead and get started with 

21 our first two speakers. Amy Adams and Hazel 

22 Adams. Amy and Hazel Adams, are you present?

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1 [Pause.]

2 MS. ADAMS: Thank you for allowing me the 

3 opportunity to speak with you this evening. My 

4 name is Amy Adams, A-m-y, A-d-a-m-s. I am here 

5 today from North Carolina with my daughter, 

6 Hazel. Hazel is here with me today because she 

7 suffers from asthma and has spent lots of time in 

8 and out of the hospital in the first 2 years of 

9 her life.

10 Healthy air is critical for her growth 

11 and development. She is paying the price for 

12 power plants' unregulated carbon emissions. 

13 In North Carolina, we have 3 of the 50 

14 dirtiest power plants in the country. For her 

15 and millions of children like her across the 

16 country, carbon must be better regulated.

17 Hazel, do you have something to say? 

18 Your four words?

19 [No audible response.]

20 MS. ADAMS: Hazel's words were "I need 

21 clean air."

22 Carbon is not only affecting the health 

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1 of my family; it's also affecting my childhood 

2 home of eastern North Carolina by increased 

3 severe weather, more intense storms, and rising 

4 sea levels.

5 I grew up the daughter of a sailboat 

6 captain along the shores of the Pamlico River in 

7 the Outer Banks of North Carolina. My parents' 

8 home has been flooded repeated times in the last 

9 10 years. The water which used to occasionally 

10 overtop the bulkhead only during Nor'easters and 

11 hurricanes now routinely overtops. The changes 

12 in the intensity and frequency of flooding are 

13 directly tied to carbon pollution. Flooding and 

14 seawater intrusion from sea-level rise and 

15 increasing storm surge threaten the North 

16 Carolina coast.

17 Until recently, I worked for the 

18 Department of Environment and Natural Resources 

19 as the regional office supervisor for the Surface 

20 Water Protection Section of the Division of Water 

21 Quality. While working for the department, I was 

22 involved with wetland and coastal permitting and 

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1 have seen firsthand the evidence of a changing 

2 coast.

3 A subdivision in rural North Carolina I 

4 am familiar with was platted in the coast with 

5 the coastal and 404 lines marked in 2004. Since 

6 that time, this site has had to be remarked 

7 multiple times due to the progression of the 

8 wetland line inland. Several lots now have a 

9 buildable footprint only near the road setback, 

10 several hundred feet from the water, or some have 

11 no buildable footprint at all.

12 In another subdivision, lots that perked 

13 but were never developed have seen their perk 

14 renewals denied. The lots are now too wet for 

15 traditional septic.

16 This story is repeated throughout eastern 

17 North Carolina. More dike and pumping permits 

18 are being issued just so farmers can farm the 

19 outer coastal plain. However, in North Carolina 

20 we deny sea-level rise, choosing to legislate it 

21 away.

22 Last month, I witnessed for the first 

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1 time the overwhelming destruction of mountaintop 

2 removal. I took this aerial flight as a learning 

3 trip as North Carolina has no extractive 

4 industry. Fracking, however, is beating down our 

5 door.

6 But we have borne the cost of coal 

7 leftovers. Coal ash storage and the 

8 contamination it leaves behind have sullied the 

9 Dan River from the third largest coal ash spill 

10 in the nation. Thirteen other communities across 

11 North Carolina are fighting to get basic 

12 safeguards at the remaining unlined coal ash 

13 pits.

14 From blasting apart mountains to the 

15 transport of coal through our communities to the 

16 unsafe storage of coal ash and now the fracking 

17 industry thirsty for North Carolina resources, 

18 North Carolina is in the crosshairs, and the 

19 cries of her people are falling on deaf ears.

20 Recent developments in North Carolina 

21 politics have seen the elimination of the 

22 Department of Environmental staff and funding, 

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1 slashing of environmental protections, exemptions 

2 for a multitude of regulations, and a 

3 pro-industry, business-friendly takeover. North 

4 Carolina's Governor and Environmental Secretary 

5 question the legal authority of EPA to enact 

6 these carbon rules.

7 North Carolina's head-in-the-sand 

8 leadership exemplifies why we need a strong 

9 federal rule. It is not only good science; it's

10 a critical step in protecting North Carolinians,

11 not only from the effects of an unregulated 

12 carbon emission but from a decreasingly 

13 protective political will.

14 I encourage the EPA to do everything 

15 within its power to strengthen the proposed rules 

16 and fight back against industry naysayers and 

17 climate deniers. Set stronger standards. 

18 Promote energy efficiency and renewables as the 

19 gold standard for our country.

20 North Carolina must rely on EPA to set 

21 strong enforceable standards. It cannot rely on 

22 its state government if the course continues. We 

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1 must rely on EPA. Our state will not protect us.

2 Thank you.

3 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

4 MS. ADAMS: Do you want to say you line?

5 [No audible response.]

6 MS. ADAMS: You still can't.

7 MS. TONEY: Hazel, can you show us what 

8 your sign says?

9 MS. ADAMS: Can you show your sign?

10 MS. TONEY: Will you show us your sign?

11 MS. ADAMS: Here we go.

12 MS. TONEY: Thank you. That is a very 

13 nice sign, Hazel. Thank you.

14 MS. ADAMS: Can you take your asthma 

15 inhaler?

16 There we go. Thank you.

17 MS. TONEY: Okay, thank you.

18 MS. ADAMS: Good job.

19 Our next speakers are Candee Henderson 

20 and Bert Schuster. If I have mispronounced your 

21 name, please correct me. I want to make sure 

22 that I get it correct.

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1 Ms. Henderson, did I say that correctly? 

2 Is it Candee?

3 MS. HENDERSON: Candee.

4 MS. TONEY: Okay, all right.

5 MS. HENDERSON: It's just a little 

6 different spelling.

7 MS. TONEY: So we will have Ms. Henderson 

8 first, and then Mr. Schuster will follow. 

9 If you will please spell your name for 

10 the court reporter.

11 MS. HENDERSON: My name is Candee, 

12 C-a-n-d-e-e, Henderson, H-e-n-d-e-r-s-o-n.

13 Good evening. Thank you for coming to 

14 Atlanta from Washington. I am Candee Henderson. 

15 My husband Bob and I have also come some 

16 distance. We live in the southwest corner of 

17 Georgia, more than 200 miles from here.

18 We have the privilege of living in a 

19 rural area of southwest Georgia. Our yard is 

20 flush with grass and trees. Early in the 

21 morning, the air is fresh. The lawn is sparkling 

22 with dew. Is it any wonder that so many people 

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1 cannot believe that our precious life support 

2 system is endangered?

3 Imperceptible to our limited senses, the 

4 amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere of the 

5 entire planet continues to rise far beyond the 

6 ideal 350 parts per million. Around the world, 

7 hundreds of millions of people are suffering from 

8 the effects of sea-level rise and floods and 

9 droughts and fires that are exacerbated, if not 

10 directly caused by this rise in carbon dioxide.

11 Some Americans might say, "There have 

12 always been people living on the edge. What can 

13 I do, anyway?" I say we are our brother's 

14 keeper. We are the leaders in this world. It is 

15 our duty and our testimony to do everything in 

16 our power to reverse the causes of global 

17 warming.

18 That gets to why you are here today. We 

19 applaud the Clean Power Plan that will put limits 

20 on the amount of carbon dioxide that coal-fired 

21 electric power plants can spew into the air, 

22 especially since we Georgians get 35 percent of 

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1 our electricity from the burning of coal, and we 

2 have the dubious distinction of having the 

3 coal-fired plant that is number one in emissions 

4 in the USA. The Clean Power Plan is especially 

5 important for us.

6 But the Clean Power Plan is a single step 

7 in the journey of a thousand miles that will take 

8 us to a place of sustainable energy. I predict 

9 that this modest proposal of 30 percent carbon 

10 reduction by 2030 will be met and surpass long 

11 before the due date. Solar and wind power 

12 industries are growing like the cell phone 

13 technology at the beginning of this century. 

14 Georgia's sun index is higher than most states 

15 and significantly higher than Germany, where 1 

16 day recently 74 percent of the nation's 

17 electricity came from solar installations and 

18 wind turbines.

19 Georgia could do this. Power companies 

20 could be incentivized to encourage efficiency and 

21 renewable sources of electricity. Every public 

22 building could have a south-facing roof covered 

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1 in solar panels, every school, every courthouse, 

2 every church, every library, all producing 

3 electricity.

4 In 1931, not long before he died, the 

5 inventor Thomas Edison told his friends, Henry 

6 Ford and Harvey Firestone. Thomas Edison said, 

7 "I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. 

8 What a source of power! I hope we don't have to 

9 wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle 

10 that." Imagine if we had heeded Thomas Edison in 

11 the 1930s. The fossil fuel industry might have 

12 turned its entrepreneurial skills to hawking 

13 sunshine and wind, and this hearing would be 

14 necessary.

15 But unfortunately, that's not how the 

16 story unfolded. About 200 years ago when the 

17 connection between electricity and magnetism was 

18 discovered, entrepreneurs jumped at the 

19 opportunity to put motors to work for mankind. 

20 In the 19th century, it was a miracle of sorts. 

21 We began digging up more and more of the fossil 

22 carbon. There seemed to be an endless supply. 

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1 The world was transformed. People's lives were 

2 forever changed. No one knew 200 years ago that 

3 the coal had formed from plant material living in 

4 a much different climate, a much different Earth 

5 than we have today. No one knew that returning 

6 that fossil carbon to the Earth's atmosphere 

7 would also return to the Earth to that ancient 

8 climate.

9 Now, I realize that this is an 

10 oversimplification, but the bottom line is we 

11 have experienced the benefits of fossil carbon. 

12 It is time to address its consequences.

13 It is a precious non-renewable resource. 

14 Coal, oil, and gas, all are too valuable for mere 

15 burning. So one small step is to limit CO2 from 

16 coal-fired electricity production. It is our 

17 responsibility as citizens to direct you, the 

18 Environmental Protection Agency, to control 

19 emissions, put limits on the unbridled use of 

20 fossil fuels. We give you permission with 

21 citizen oversight to implement our laws. We 

22 expect you to do your job, regardless of pressure 

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1 from those who benefit in the present from 

2 spewing carbon dioxide that endangers the future.

3 Take this small step and continue the 

4 journey until our atmosphere is returned to 350 

5 parts per million of carbon dioxide, from the 

6 400-plus per million we now experience. 

7 Renewable energy must replace the burning of 

8 fossil carbon or we're toast.

9 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

10 MS. HENDERSON: Thank you for your 

11 attention.

12 MS. TONEY: Thank you, Ms. Henderson.

13 MR. SCHUSTER: Hello. My name is Bert 

14 Schuster, B-e-r-t, S-c-h-u-s-t-e-r. I live in 

15 Buford, Georgia, and I am a retired person. I 

16 don't represent any organization. I speak for 

17 myself.

18 Last month was the third month in a row 

19 in which carbon dioxide levels in our atmosphere 

20 topped an average of 400 parts per million, a 

21 level not seen on Earth since at least 800,000 

22 years. It's scary, right?

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1 I think it is high time that the Federal 

2 Government and all 50 states adopt regulations to 

3 curb the emissions of greenhouse gases. I 

4 strongly support the proposed rules by the EPA to 

5 reduce carbon dioxide emissions from existing and 

6 future electric power plants and to foster 

7 increased use of green energy and increased 

8 energy efficiencies.

9 It is worth noting that in recent years, 

10 a large number of coal-fired power plants were 

11 either shut down or have been scheduled for 

12 retirement. Older plants especially were, or 

13 still are, a source of harmful pollution, often 

14 falling disproportionately on poor communities, 

15 causing respiratory problems, heart attacks, and 

16 death.

17 To me, the overriding reason for reducing 

18 the emissions from power plants is to counter the 

19 effects of human-induced climate change. In many 

20 countries, we are already experiencing extreme 

21 weather conditions caused by climate disruption, 

22 such as severe drought, wildfires, record heat, 

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1 and super storms like hurricanes and typhoons. 

2 If we did nothing to modify how we generate and 

3 use energy and operate our farms, we would soon 

4 be faced with serious economic and health risks 

5 that would significantly escalate with each 

6 passing year.

7 I am here to speak about global warming 

8 because I am concerned about our future. My 

9 concern stems from my reading about climate 

10 science and from my religious faith.

11 One of my religious principles is respect 

12 for the interdependent web of all existence of 

13 which we humans are a part. To live sustainably 

14 on this Earth is a moral imperative, and we have 

15 a fiduciary responsibility to deliver a safe 

16 atmosphere and climate to future generations.

17 I recently saw the highly acclaimed 

18 documentary movie "Chasing Ice," which his really 

19 wonderful and which I recommend to anybody. This 

20 movie came out in 2012, and it documents by means 

21 of time-lapsed photography how global warming 

22 causes glaciers in Iceland, Greenland, and Alaska 

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1 to erode and disappear. I cannot think of a more 

2 compelling wakeup call. This documentary shows 

3 us that drastic climate change is already 

4 happening. The glaciers are disappearing with 

5 alarming speed.

6 While I strongly support the proposed EPA 

7 rules, it is clear to me that they are just an 

8 important and necessary first step. To quote 

9 James Hansen who wrote in April of this year, 

10 "Atmosphere CO2 today is already in the danger 

11 zone, and the government should present a plan to 

12 reduce fossil fuel emissions and increase carbon 

13 uptake by the land and biosphere at rates 

14 requires to reduce atmospheric CO2 this century 

15 to, at most, 300 parts per million." End of 

16 quote.

17 I am just a concerned citizen and do not 

18 have any special expertise, but I would like to 

19 suggest that the EPA make every effort to 

20 regulate hydraulic fracturing for oil and gas, so 

21 as to reduce leakage of methane and prevent 

22 groundwater pollution.

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1 In addition, there are a number of 

2 policies that I would like the Federal Government 

3 to adopt and implement to avert climate threats. 

4 They probably go beyond the EPA's current 

5 mandate, but I feel compelled, nevertheless, the 

6 mention them here.

7 End all subsidies for the coal mining 

8 industry, which is helped by low-priced leases on 

9 federal lands and indirect support for exports.

10 I have three more sentences. Can I 

11 finish those?

12 MS. TONEY: Go ahead.

13 MR. SCHUSTER: Stop awarding leases for 

14 offshore oil and gas drilling. Do not permit 

15 drilling in the Arctic. Regulate hydraulic 

16 fracturing for oil and gas, so as to reduce 

17 leakage of methane, and prevent groundwater 

18 pollution. Create incentives for corporations 

19 and businesses to innovate and profitably develop 

20 alternative energy sources.

21 I am going to stop here and give you a 

22 copy.

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1 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

2 MR. SCHUSTER: Thank you very much.

3 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

4 Our next speakers are Chris McCorkle and 

5 Bonita Dodd.

6 [Pause.]

7 MS. TONEY: We are going to begin with 

8 Chris McCorkle.

9 MR. McCORKLE: My name is Chris McCorkle, 

10 C-h-r-i-s, M-c-C-o-r-k-l-e.

11 I am somewhat reminded that there is a 

12 saying that there seems to be at least one expert 

13 in every room, and it seems that I've been 

14 surrounded by seemingly a whole room full of 

15 experts, many of whom frankly I'm having a 

16 difficult time agreeing with.

17 I come to you as a third generation 

18 family business owner. I am Vice President of 

19 Operations of a horticultural nursery, and, yes, 

20 we do claim to be in the environmental 

21 enhancement business. We cover over about 800 

22 acres of land in McDuffie County, Georgia, which 

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1 is just west of Augusta. We employ 150 

2 associates and their families to produce 4.5 

3 million plants per year.

4 From the time my grandfather founded our 

5 company in 1942, our operations have relied on 

6 electricity provided by Jefferson Energy 

7 Cooperative. Energy is a key component to our 

8 operations. From irrigation systems to our 

9 information technologies, affordable and reliable 

10 energy is one of the most critical factors to our 

11 business.

12 As an owner of our family business, the 

13 impacts of energy costs are one of my greatest 

14 concerns and make up a significant portion of 

15 McCorkle Nurseries' operating expenses. Apart 

16 from labor, electrical costs are one of our 

17 greatest expenses.

18 Having been a member of the Jefferson 

19 Energy Cooperative for 72 years, our company 

20 knows they try to keep our energy costs as 

21 inexpensive as possible, but I have no doubt that 

22 the EPA's proposal will increase McCorkle 

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1 Nurseries' energy cost, and those increases will 

2 have to be passed on to our customers.

3 I also fear that energy reliability could 

4 be jeopardized because these rules will remove 

5 coal from the energy mix and reduce the overall 

6 amount of power generation available. McCorkle 

7 Nurseries cannot continue our record of 

8 successful business with rolling blackouts or 

9 brownouts, and though that is an electrical term, 

10 plants that rely on irrigation to survive, I 

11 would probably have to show you a brownout, which 

12 would be millions of dead plants.

13 As a citizen voter and taxpaying 

14 entrepreneur and business owner in Georgia, I 

15 urge you to reject this proposal and consider a 

16 more balanced approach.

17 I am reminded of why our country is the 

18 greatest in the world. It is not by the virtue 

19 of government regulation and overreach but due to 

20 the ingenious contributions of the individual.

21 Thank you.

22 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

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1 MS. DODD: I know this is going to take 

2 away a few minutes from me, but I will have to 

3 tell you I have never met or seen this gentleman 

4 before. But I have been to McCorkle Nurseries, 

5 and it is one of the most environmentally 

6 responsible and sustainable operations that I've 

7 ever seen, so . . .

8 MR. McCORKLE: Thank you.

9 MS. DODD: And they have great sales on 

10 Father's Day weekends.

11 [Laughter.]

12 MS. DODD: My name is Bonita Dodd, and I 

13 am from the Georgia Public Policy Foundation. We 

14 are a state-focused think tank. 

15 We believe that the EPA's subsequent 

16 action from its order in the Federal Register 

17 threatens the public health and welfare of 

18 current and future generations of Georgians far 

19 more than greenhouse gases do.

20 The EPA declares the goal of its Clean 

21 Power Plan is to cut carbon pollution from the 

22 power sector by 30 percent from 2005 levels. 

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1 When the agency starts with referring to carbon 

2 emissions as carbon pollution, it demonstrates to 

3 us a slanted, not a science-based agenda.

4 According to the Federal Register, 

5 President Obama's executive order specifically 

6 directs EPA to build on state leadership, provide 

7 flexibility, and take advantage of a wide range 

8 of energy sources and technologies towards 

9 building a cleaner power sector. Unfortunately, 

10 the flexibility that the EPA is offering Georgia 

11 is akin to letting a condemned man choose his 

12 method of execution. One way or another, it's 

13 the end.

14 EPA has offered no alternatives to this 

15 expensive climate change agenda action. It would 

16 require Georgia utilities to cut emissions by an 

17 additional 44 percent by 2030 at existing plants, 

18 and it expects this to be done by converting to 

19 alternative sources of energy and by energy 

20 conservation and efficiency. But the EPA won't 

21 credit Georgia's utilities for their work done in 

22 embracing carbon-free energy by building the 

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1 first nuclear unit since Three Mile Island.

2 EPA's goal is also to shrink electricity 

3 bills, roughly 8 percent, by increasing energy 

4 efficiency and reducing demand in the electricity 

5 system. Reducing energy demand, like with water 

6 conservation measures, leaves the utilities 

7 further lacking the revenue they need for the 

8 efficiencies the government wants.

9 In the Federal Register, the EPA notes, 

10 "At this time, we don't have any estimates 

11 regarding the benefits and costs of this action, 

12 but we do expect it to be a significant 

13 regulatory action with annual effects on the 

14 economy exceeding $100 million." In the rule, 

15 the EPA projects that net climate and health 

16 benefits are 48 billion to 82 billion by 2030. 

17 In the overview, the benefits climb to 55 billion 

18 to 93 billion in 2030, including avoiding 2,700 

19 to 6,600 deaths and 140,000 to 150,000 asthma 

20 attacks in children.

21 We never want our children to suffer, 

22 especially not if their asthma attacks are caused 

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1 by polluting power plants. So these numbers are 

2 important for two reasons.

3 First, this nation deserves a credible 

4 approach that yields tangible results. Second, 

5 as taxpayers, we deserve justification of the 

6 financial costs and the claimed benefits. "We 

7 can't tell you the costs, but we do know how much 

8 it can save you." Sounds like a pitch from a 

9 sleazy car dealership.

10 And those caveats are based on these 

11 statements. When then-EPA Administrator Lisa 

12 Jackson told Congress back in 2009 that U.S. 

13 sanction alone will not impact global carbon 

14 emission levels, that this was part, quote, of an 

15 overall strategy that is positioning the U.S. for 

16 leadership in an international discussion.

17 And then just this month, a former EPA 

18 computer modeler wrote in the Wall Street 

19 Journal, "I realize that my work for the EPA 

20 wasn't that of a scientist. It was more like 

21 that of a lawyer. My job as a modeler was to 

22 build the best case for my client's position."

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1 Meanwhile, the Institute for 21st Century 

2 Energy predicts that this will cost America's 

3 economy over 50 billion a year between now and 

4 2030. As for using this action to reduce asthma 

5 attacks and fatalities, the EPA has highlighted 

6 the dramatic improvements in air quality over the 

7 past 30 years, despite the increase in 

8 population, the economy, and vehicle miles 

9 traveled. So if outdoor pollution is the 

10 problem, why is it that rates of asthma have 

11 risen sharply over the past 30 years? Why are 

12 asthma prevalence and deaths climbing among lower 

13 income and minority families? We should be more 

14 concerned with the EPA report that the average 

15 American spends 90 percent of their time indoors, 

16 and that studies of human exposure to air 

17 pollutants by EPA indicate that levels of 

18 pollutants may be two to five times and 

19 occasionally more than a hundred times higher in 

20 outdoor pollutant levels.

21 And I see that my time is up, but I will 

22 submit the rest of my testimony. Thank you.

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1 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

2 Our next speakers are Ellen Dugan and Dr. 

3 Gerald Staton.

4 And for those who do have additional 

5 testimony that they are providing to us, I do 

6 believe that testimony needs to be made available 

7 to -- there is a table right outside of the door. 

8 Please make sure that we do get a copy of that, 

9 so that it's included in the record.

10 [Pause.]

11 MS. TONEY: We are going to begin with 

12 Ellen Dugan.

13 MS. DUGAN: Hello. My name is Ellen 

14 Dugan, and I would like to thank the EPA for 

15 having this Public Hearing and the OMNI Hotel for 

16 hosting. I came here today after a 4-hour car 

17 ride from Asheville, North Carolina, to tell you 

18 my story and my thoughts on the issue at hand.

19 I am a recent graduate in environmental 

20 health here at Emory University. Before that, 

21 though, about 9 years back, I was a timid high 

22 school student in Asheville, North Carolina.

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1 My main worries at that time were what my 

2 classmates thought of my clunky green van or 

3 whether the long-haired boy in my homeroom liked 

4 me. What I should have been more conscious 

5 about, though, was the coal-fired power plant 

6 right across the street from my school, about a 

7 quarter mile, which is also the largest 

8 electric-generating facility in western North 

9 Carolina.

10 Only recently did I learn that this plant 

11 is on a list of the 100 most polluting coal 

12 plants in the United States. It is number 69 out 

13 of about 7,000 power plants. And even more, the 

14 site is listed as high hazard, meaning that if 

15 the coal ash pond or impoundment spilled, there 

16 is a, quote, high likelihood of causing death or 

17 serious injury.

18 I also learned that the plant has had a 

19 coal ash spill in the past, of which none of the 

20 citizens were informed.

21 All of this information has led me to 

22 many questions that I did not consider in my time 

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1 in high school: What kinds of effects has this 

2 plant had on my health over the years? What 

3 about the health of my family, my friends, and 

4 the Asheville citizens, as well?

5 My family has monopolized the 

6 cross-country running team at my high school over 

7 the century. They even call us the "Dugan 

8 Dynasty," after our last name, because my sister, 

9 two brothers, and I have been on the team for all 

10 4 years of each of our high school experiences.

11 As fun as this sounds, I am seriously 

12 concerned about what impacts this has had on our 

13 health as we have each run for 4 years during our 

14 high school career. What is this effect still 

15 having on my little brother's health who is 

16 currently in high school? The most worrisome 

17 part of all this information is the fact that we 

18 have clean energy options at our fingertips.

19 I believe, as an affected citizen and as 

20 a public health professional, that sanctifying 

21 the Clean Power Plan is necessary to show the 

22 commitment of the United States in combatting 

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1 climate change and the commitment of the United 

2 States as world leaders.

3 Thank you.

4 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

5 Dr. Staton or "Staton"?

6 DR. STATON: "Staton."

7 MS. TONEY: "Staton." Dr. Staton.

8 DR. STATON: So my name is Gerald Staton. 

9 That's G-e-r-a-l-d, S-t-a-t-o-n. Thank you for 

10 providing an opportunity for me to speak. I am a 

11 member of the Board of Directors of the American 

12 Lung Association of the Southeast, and I speak to 

13 you today on behalf of the Lung Association. I 

14 am a physician here in Atlanta, and I practice 

15 and teach at Emory. My specialty is pulmonary 

16 and critical care medicine.

17 The American Lung Association's mission 

18 is to save lives by improving lung health and 

19 preventing lung disease. The American Lung 

20 Association believes that we need strong carbon 

21 standards to protect the lung health of everyone, 

22 especially those who suffer from lung disease.

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1 Here in Georgia, tens of thousands of 

2 people have chronic lung diseases that can be 

3 serious or even life threatening. Prevalence 

4 estimates are that nearly 609,000 adult Georgians 

5 have asthma, as to 269,000 children. 528,000 

6 Georgians have chronic obstructive pulmonary 

7 disease, a disease that over time makes it harder 

8 and harder to breathe. If you add those three 

9 up, the asthma in children and adults and those 

10 with what we call "COPD," it is more than twice 

11 as many patients with cardiovascular disease here 

12 in Georgia.

13 Carbon pollution leads to warmer 

14 temperatures that can enhance the conditions for 

15 harmful air pollutants, including ozone and 

16 particle pollution. Scientists warn that climate 

17 change is likely to increase the risk of 

18 unhealthy air in large parts of the United 

19 States, leading to more unhealthy air days than 

20 we could have otherwise. More pollution means 

21 more childhood asthma attacks and complications 

22 for those with lung disease, including increased 

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1 risk of premature death.

2 In preparation for this, I looked up the 

3 statistics for Fulton County, where I live and 

4 where we are right now. The local data indicate 

5 that we have a failing grade for ozone and a 

6 failing grade for annual particulate pollution 

7 here in Georgia, right where we are today.

8 For the millions of Americans who live 

9 with chronic lung diseases, high ozone can make 

10 it difficult for them to breathe, cause them to 

11 cough and wheeze, and can send them to emergency 

12 rooms at hospitals. Breathing high ozone can 

13 even increase their risk of dying early.

14 Ozone pollution has been linked to 

15 limiting the growth of lung function in children, 

16 a serious concern, given that 80 percent of a 

17 child's lung develops after birth, and that 

18 limited lung function can increase the chance of 

19 developing lung disease later in life.

20 Particle pollution can increase the risk 

21 of heart disease, lung cancer, and asthma 

22 attacks, and can interfere with the growth and 

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1 work of the lungs. The EPA has stated in their 

2 integrated science assessment for particulate 

3 matter, December 2009, that fine particle 

4 pollution poses serious health threats.

5 I just have to give a little aside. As I 

6 said, I am practicing physician here in Atlanta. 

7 I don't need to know what your air quality 

8 numbers are, whether we are orange, red, yellow, 

9 green, because the number of messages I have from 

10 patients every day directly correlates with the 

11 air pollution. I mean, it's real thing that I 

12 have to deal with.

13 In August, particularly when we have 

14 those red air days, I have a lot more calls from 

15 my patients.

16 Those at high risk from exposure to these 

17 air pollutants are already facing the effects of 

18 warmer temperature. Evidence shows that unless 

19 we can cut carbon pollution, the risk will grow.

20 In the Lung Association's latest State of 

21 the Air Report, warmer temperatures led to much 

22 worse ozone pollution in cities across the nation 

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1 in 2010 to 2012. Over 147 million people live in 

2 counties that suffered too many unhealthy ozone 

3 days during that period. Even though we have 

4 made great strides in cutting air pollution, 

5 warmer temperatures will make it much more likely 

6 that we will see more years with too many 

7 unhealthy air days.

8 By the way, Atlanta is the number 18th 

9 worst city in the country for particulate 

10 pollution.

11 Cleaning up air pollution will help my 

12 patients, my family, and frankly me. On behalf 

13 of the American Lung Association, I urge EPA to 

14 adopt the strongest possible carbon pollution 

15 standards in the Clean Power Plan in order to 

16 protect public health, both now and for my 

17 children in the future.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you both.

20 Next, we will hear from Anthony Hudson 

21 and Tammye Vaughn.

22 [Pause.]

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1 MR. HUDSON: Hello. My name is Anthony 

2 Hudson.

3 MS. TONEY: Just a second, Mr. Hudson, to 

4 make sure we give you all the time.

5 Go ahead. 

6 MR. HUDSON: My name is Anthony Hudson, 

7 A-n-t-h-o-n-y, H-u-d-s-o-n.

8 We thank you for having this hearing. We 

9 have a great concern about nuclear plants. Right 

10 now, today in Fukushima, there is a disaster 

11 ongoing today. Over 300 tons of nuclear 

12 radioactive water is being spilled in Pacific 

13 Ocean, and the nuclear-contaminated radiated 

14 water has now reached and has long now reached 

15 the California shore.

16 The EPA, as far as I understand -- and 

17 please correct me if I am wrong -- do not provide 

18 any types of public notifications of tracking of 

19 this contaminant.

20 And excuse me for getting a little bit 

21 political because politics impacts the 

22 environment. Our nation has through wars dumped 

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1 over 410 tons of depleted uranium in what is 

2 termed the Middle East -- Pakistan, Iran, and 

3 Iraq. What we are using as depleted uranium, 

4 tank busters, when it hits, it becomes aerosol, 

5 like a fine mist. You can't recapture it. It 

6 becomes airborne.

7 There is, to my knowledge, no tracking of 

8 this contaminant as it goes through our air and 

9 water systems, but we know that the contamination 

10 lasts for 4.5 billion years. 4.5 billion years. 

11 We know that where it is occurring, there are 

12 birth defects, 1,000 percent increase, children 

13 being born without eyes and organs and organs on 

14 the outside.

15 We know that what they are saying is we 

16 need these nuclear plants for electricity, but we 

17 know the process. They are boiling water for 

18 electricity. That the real purpose of the 

19 nuclear plants is to create that depleted uranium 

20 and that uranium and dominate the world by 

21 actually poisoning it. We are really asking for 

22 some courage at this point to face it, to state 

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1 it, to track it, to report it, and then to look 

2 at history, because we have test law who came up 

3 with a way of providing energy for the world that 

4 is not aggressively destroying us, and we are 

5 ignoring it. It's locked up, and we need to 

6 unlock it.

7 There are what we call "magnetic 

8 conduction motors" that continue to produce 

9 energy without a toxic effect.

10 It shows a bit callous not to mention and 

11 urge those things, and we would encourage you to 

12 do that because the number of -- one gentleman 

13 was talking about "I can take you to the number 

14 of plants that are dead because we may not get a 

15 brownout." Well, you don't want to go to the 

16 hospitals that have the children who are 

17 devastated by the contaminated wars and our 

18 nuclear programs.

19 Thank you for allowing me to speak, and I 

20 hope that the EPA can exert some honesty in this 

21 policy. Thank you.

22 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

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1 Ms. Vaughn?

2 MS. VAUGHN: Good evening. My name is 

3 Tammye Vaughn. That's T-a-m-m-y-e, Vaughn, 

4 V-a-u-g-h-n.

5 Let me begin by thanking you for your 

6 time and for the opportunity to be here today to 

7 express my opposition to EPA's proposed rules for 

8 existing power plants.

9 I am the Manager of Marketing and 

10 Communications for Altamaha EMC. Altamaha EMC is 

11 an electric membership cooperative located in 

12 southeast Georgia. We supply electricity to just 

13 under 20,000 members in seven rural counties in 

14 southeast Georgia.

15 The members of Altamaha EMC simply cannot 

16 afford higher electricity prices. Our rural 

17 members are in a lower income and generally pay a 

18 greater percentage of their income for energy. 

19 Many of the households in our seven county 

20 service areas spend an estimate average of 22 

21 percent of their after-tax income in energy 

22 alone. For many of the families in our area, 

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1 such as the elderly and those on fixed incomes, 

2 their annual income is often less than $10,000. 

3 Less than $10,000. For these folks, energy bills 

4 represent 71 percent of their family incomes 

5 before accounting for any energy assistance 

6 programs that may be available to them.

7 At Altamaha EMC, we see the never-ending 

8 battle every month, as many of our members 

9 continually struggle to pay their electricity 

10 bills. Additional energy cost with no benefit is 

11 simply unacceptable.

12 The cost of electricity directly impacts 

13 the quality of life in the communities served by 

14 electric cooperatives across the state. 

15 Increased cost will slow economic growth, reduce 

16 job opportunities, and force families to make 

17 tough budget decisions. We see this every month, 

18 as many of our members are already forced to make 

19 the tough decision between putting food on the 

20 table for their families. The elderly have to 

21 choose between the medicines that they need for 

22 their health or paying their electric bill.

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1 I urge the EPA to withdraw this proposal 

2 and work with us on a new common-sense approach 

3 that will be a true all-of-the-above energy 

4 strategy. Thank you again for your time. I 

5 appreciate your attention.

6 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

7 Could you please spell the name of the 

8 group, Altamaha?

9 MS. VAUGHN: Yes. It is Altamaha, just 

10 like the river. It's A-l-t-a-m-a-h-a, EMC for 

11 Electric Membership Cooperative.

12 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

13 MS. VAUGHN: Thank you so much.

14 MS. TONEY: Our next speakers are Brad 

15 Rouse and Terry Floyd. 

16 I don't know if I pronounced it. Is it 

17 "Rouse" or "Rouse"?

18 MR. ROUSE: You said it right.

19 MS. TONEY: "Rouse"?

20 MR. ROUSE: "Rouse."

21 MS. TONEY: Okay.

22 MR. ROUSE: Like "house" with an "R."

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1 MS. TONEY: Got it.

2 MR. ROUSE: Are you going to let me go 

3 first?

4 MS. TONEY: Mr. Rouse.

5 MR. ROUSE: Yes. B-r-a-d, R-o-u-s-e.

6 I support the EPA regulations as a first 

7 step in ending our dependence on fossil fuels, 

8 but make no mistake about it, we need to have a 

9 longer term plan that gets to end our dependence 

10 on fossil fuels.

11 I also support an approach which would 

12 allow the use of a carbon tax at the state or the 

13 regional level as a superior approach to the 

14 regulatory rules and the process.

15 I had studied economics in college, got 

16 an MBA, have a 38-year career in planning, and 

17 over half of that is in the utility industry, as 

18 a planner for the utility industry.

19 I also grew up in eastern North Carolina 

20 and learned to love and enjoy the Outer Banks. 

21 Whenever I go back there, I really just -- it's 

22 such a magical place, and it pains me to think 

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1 that future generations might not have that to 

2 enjoy, might have less than what we have and some 

3 of the great places that would be threatened.

4 I have studied fossil fuels. I have 

5 studied the impact of fossil fuels, and we just 

6 have a fossil fuel dependence problem in this 

7 country. We need to be moving off of fossil 

8 fuels. 

9 There is a big problem. Through my 

10 business background, I have developed a big faith 

11 in the free market as the best way to provide a 

12 good living and a good life for people, but 

13 honestly, the free market is based on two people 

14 trading and both of them being made better off by 

15 the trade. If we do just more of that trading 

16 and do that, then the world would be better off, 

17 and that is the whole theory of the free market 

18 and why the free market works.

19 But the problem is when you have a trade 

20 and the costs of that trade are not incorporated 

21 into that trade and instead the costs are being 

22 borne by somebody else, then that becomes a 

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1 failure of capitalism. What we have with fossil 

2 fuels today is the failure of market capitalism. 

3 It is in fact the worst failure of market 

4 capitalism in the history of capitalism. 

5 What you are doing through the EPA is 

6 saying that society has to step in and make a 

7 change in some form or fashion to correct the 

8 problems in the market. You are doing the things 

9 that Teddy Roosevelt did when he broke up the 

10 trusts and people on down the road. It is sort 

11 of part and parcel of our American history, and 

12 so I applaud the EPA for taking that step and 

13 doing that.

14 We have a problem, though, with the 

15 rules, and this is why I advocate for a carbon 

16 tax, because you are only covering the large 

17 sources of power. You are only looking at the 

18 power sector, and there are a lot of other 

19 contributors to the carbon problem. One of them 

20 is heating, and another one is transportation. 

21 Then another one, I think was mentioned earlier, 

22 is cogeneration or the small source of power 

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1 producer, and there are others.

2 One of the things that I am concerned 

3 about is that with your carbon rules, we should 

4 have more of an emphasis on the fact that that 

5 longer term ending of dependence on fossil fuels 

6 probably means that electricity is the big winner 

7 long term in terms of our energy supply. We 

8 don't have a lot of point-source use of fossil 

9 fuels in the future.

10 But your rules would tend to discriminate 

11 against electric vehicles. Your rules would tend 

12 to discriminate against electric heat pumps, and 

13 both of those are technologies which really 

14 utilities ought to be pushing and which I think 

15 would add to the carbon problem.

16 So I would just encourage that you would 

17 allow a carbon tax, a revenue-neutral carbon tax 

18 as an option for the states, so that they could 

19 incorporate. I mean, it might very well be that 

20 utility output would increase because they would 

21 get a greater share of the total energy pie, 

22 which is what needs to happen long term, and yet 

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1 it would hurt them on the carbon rules. But it 

2 would help overall with the CO2 reduction.

3 So with that being said, I really applaud 

4 what you are doing. I think it is great that you 

5 are taking a step, and I Just would look for some 

6 flexibility, maybe provide an incentive if a 

7 state would adopt a carbon tax that would be 

8 broad-based, that the large emitters could 

9 actually get sort of a less stringent restriction 

10 in exchange for the fact that they are adopting a 

11 broader based carbon tax, which is really where 

12 it hopefully will go nationally and 

13 legislatively.

14 And with that, I thank you very much.

15 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

16 Mr. Floyd.

17 MR. FLOYD: Good evening. My name is 

18 Terry Floyd, T-e-r-r-y, F-l-o-y-d. 

19 And I'm from Georgia, and my family came 

20 here in 1820s. My father, he worked at Oak Ridge 

21 during World War II and Huntsville at NASA after 

22 the war on space adventures, and I just kind of 

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1 enjoyed life.

2 But anyway, everyone has seen the movie 

3 or people have seen the movie "Silkwood" about 

4 the lady that worked at the nuclear plant in 

5 Oklahoma or Arkansas, and in that movie, she was 

6 working there, and she got contaminated. The 

7 question was, Was she deliberately contaminated 

8 or not? It was because she was a troublemaker. 

9 She was a union organizer. In the movie, there 

10 is a character, Karl Morgan, and he is one of the 

11 experts. His character, a real-live person, was 

12 the expert witness that supported Karen 

13 Silkwood's situation, and he appeared in many 

14 courtroom situations concerning nuclear energy 

15 for about 15 or 20 years.

16 Well, I have right here a book called 

17 "The Angry Genie: One Man's Walk Through the 

18 Nuclear Age," Karl Z. Morgan. Also, after his 

19 retirement at Oak Ridge, he came to Georgia Tech 

20 and was here. Karl Morgan is recognized as being 

21 the founder of nuclear health and how to evaluate 

22 exposure to radiation and the damages that are 

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1 there for humans and other living beings.

2 Well, in this book that was published in 

3 1999, Karl Morgan wrote about a nuclear reactor 

4 that was developed at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, under 

5 the direction of Dr. Albert Weinberg. I am going 

6 to read two sentences on page 67, Chapter 4, and 

7 the title of this chapter is "My Biggest 

8 Mistake," by Dr. Karl Morgan.

9 "I remain firm in my conviction that the 

10 molten salt thermal breeder reactor that we had 

11 developed and built at Oak Ridge provided a safer 

12 and more acceptable means of nuclear power. The 

13 molten salt thorium breeder held great promise as 

14 an energy system for the future and received 

15 enthusiastic support among most scientists at Oak 

16 Ridge." And that's where we dropped the ball on 

17 energy.

18 Richard Nixon in 1972 canceled this 

19 program, and by the way, this just happens to be 

20 during the intensity of what people know as 

21 Watergate. Now, we know at that time, Nixon was 

22 the most rational person, and I don't think he 

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1 knew the difference between a breeder reactor and 

2 a mousetrap. Anyway, he closed funding on this 

3 reactor, and that's where we need to revisit and 

4 investigate, and we have a great opportunity 

5 there.

6 I support what you are doing, and as far 

7 as scrutinizing the emissions of our atmosphere 

8 -- and by the way, thorium and the nuclear 

9 isotopes that are naturally on our planet that we 

10 live on is the atmosphere stabilizer. 

11 You have heard of the Northern Lights. 

12 We don't get to see them down here, but it's the 

13 thorium that generates those electromagnetic 

14 waves -- with intersection of the solar winds 

15 generates that, and it is also the thorium that 

16 provides the sustainability of our atmosphere. 

17 That is the difference between Earth and Mars.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you, 

20 gentlemen.

21 Our next speakers are Barbara Stahmke and 

22 Jane Laping. Please correct me if I have not 

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1 pronounced those names correctly.

2 MS. STAHMKE: You did a good job.

3 MS. TONEY: All right.

4 MS. STAHMKE: Most people can't.

5 Hi. My name is Barbara Stahmke, 

6 B-a-r-b-a-r-a, S-t-a-h-m-k-e.

7 As a registered dietician, I work with 

8 people to prevent disease and promote health. I 

9 see the impacts of climate change and 

10 environmental justice through this lens. As a 

11 person of faith, I believe that we live within an 

12 interdependent web of existence. I see the 

13 impacts of climate change and environmental 

14 justice through this lens. As an American, I am 

15 grateful that we are able to speak out and make 

16 choices.

17 I see the impacts of our loss of win-win 

18 thinking when we don't consider climate change 

19 and environmental justice in our choices and 

20 commentary. I would like to comment from this 

21 philosophy of my life and experience.

22 As a registered dietician, I worry about 

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1 the loss of food diversity and security, which 

2 will lead to increased malnutrition. I worry 

3 about food insecurity and food diversity, which 

4 our nation already is experiencing in those at 

5 the margins of income. Food insecurity and food 

6 diversity will be impacted by decreased 

7 production, increasing variability of weather, 

8 including frequency of major weather events like 

9 droughts and floods. Those are the margins of 

10 income and eventually those at the median of 

11 income may find food increasingly at prices that 

12 cannot be afforded for the diversity of diet 

13 necessary for a healthy existence.

14 American can already see what happens 

15 when a diverse diet is not available to the 

16 population. Right now, in our country, it seems 

17 to be related to an inability to purchase healthy 

18 food or inappropriate choices in food. It's 

19 leading to rising health care costs, obesity, 

20 heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. These are 

21 all related to some form of malnutrition.

22 We think of malnutrition as a poor 

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1 people's disease. The reality is it is also 

2 related to the poor choices in our diet. With 

3 climate change's impact on food security and 

4 diversity, it will no longer be our choice. Our 

5 choice will be limited by the limited 

6 availability of food, whether because it is 

7 totally not available in some areas or due to 

8 costs of food, because it has become limited in 

9 availability or, in economic terms, a scarce 

10 resource.

11 Malnutrition in children leads to a 

12 decreased capacity to learn and grow to physical 

13 productivity. Malnutrition in adults leads to a 

14 decreased ability to think, work, and 

15 problem-solve. These losses will not be evident 

16 quickly. These losses will creep up on us to the 

17 point we have no ability to solve our problems 

18 anymore. This decreases our economic viability 

19 as a nation. We must make decisions now to be a 

20 successful nation in the future.

21 As a person of faith, I believe we are an 

22 interdependent web. From Matthew 25:40, "Truly, 

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1 I say to you, to the extent that you did it to 

2 one of these brothers of mine, even the least of 

3 them, you did it to me."

4 Whether we think of these brothers of 

5 mine as our Earth, as our fellow beings on this 

6 planet, the nations of the world, American 

7 brothers and sisters, local neighbors, or our 

8 immediate family and friends, I believe we must 

9 remember always that we are an interdependent web 

10 of life.

11 We must make decisions that value this 

12 planet and our brethren. As was stated this 

13 morning by the Reverend Gerald Durley, civil 

14 rights activists of longstanding, minister of 

15 faith, and man called to environmental action, 

16 the First Commandment of the God of Abraham is to 

17 take care of this gift of the Earth to us. This 

18 interpretation was a gift to me this morning from 

19 Reverend Durley, and it's a gift to all of us 

20 that we have dominion over this Earth, and we are 

21 acting as God of this world. We bear ultimate 

22 responsibility for our actions. Our decisions 

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1 for America impact the whole world in so many 

2 ways. We are models for some of a way to be on 

3 this Earth. We are beneficent caregivers for 

4 some. We are consumers of resources to others. 

5 We are hated intermediaries for others. Our 

6 decisions in America on every level are 

7 important. We must take courage in hand and make 

8 choices that will help for the long run. That 

9 will leave us with a planet to live on that will 

10 allow all people an opportunity to succeed in 

11 this wonderful web of life that we have been 

12 granted.

13 As an American, I am grateful that I live 

14 in a place that will listen to my thoughts on 

15 this issue. I am grateful that I have sufficient 

16 food today. I am grateful that I have a career 

17 to help people make choices to be assisted to 

18 resources that will make a health difference in 

19 their lives. I am grateful. We must start to 

20 treat our commons better. We must do our job.

21 Thank you.

22 [Time clock sounds.]

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1 MS. STAHMKE: And I support clean air.

2 [Laughter.]

3 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

4 Is it Ms. "Laping" or "Laping"?

5 MS. LAPING: "Laping." You said it right 

6 the first time.

7 MS. TONEY: I said it right the first 

8 time. Okay, "Laping." Ms. Laping.

9 MS. LAPING: My name is Jane Laping, 

10 J-a-n-e, L-a-p-i-n-g.

11 I am a long-term environmentalist and a 

12 person of faith, and for those reasons, I felt 

13 compelled today to come from Asheville, North 

14 Carolina, to give my comments about the Clean 

15 Power Plan.

16 My comments will be brief. Congress has 

17 failed to act. President Obama has directed the 

18 EPA to carry out his Climate Action Plan. Now 

19 it's the EPA's turn.

20 I said my comments would be brief, but 

21 they're not going to be that brief.

22 [Laughter.]

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1 MS. LAPING: I thought you all needed a 

2 little humor after a very long day. I do.

3 Time after time, Congress has denied that 

4 climate change exists. Time after time, Congress 

5 has been unable to bring any legislation about 

6 climate change forward, and time after time, 

7 Congress has avoided the conversation as much as 

8 possible.

9 Out of frustration with this ineffective 

10 Congress, President Obama courageously exerted 

11 his executive powers and directed the EPA to 

12 carry out his Climate Action Plan. EPA's Clean 

13 Power Plan is welcome but long overdue. EPA has 

14 a pattern of controlling air pollution from power 

15 plants pollutant by pollutant. Controls have 

16 been put in place in arsenic, mercury, sulfur 

17 dioxide, nitrogen oxide, and particulate matter, 

18 costing industry millions of dollars.

19 But now for the first time, EPA is 

20 proposing placing limits on carbon dioxide 

21 emissions. Will industry fight these limits? 

22 You better believe they will. But the bigger 

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1 question is, Will EPA stand strong against 

2 industry?

3 I respectfully ask the EPA to make the 

4 Clean Power Plan rues as stringent as you can. 

5 Make them so stringent that it will be 

6 economically unfeasible to operate a fossil 

7 fuel-fired power plant. Make them so stringent 

8 that the power industry will fully invest in 

9 cleaner alternative energy sources that don't 

10 depend on fossil fuels. Make them so stringent 

11 that innovation will be spurred, newer 

12 technologies will be developed, and energy will 

13 cost less than it does now.

14 In addition, I ask the EPA to shorten the 

15 time frame for controlling carbon dioxide. 

16 Cutting carbon emissions from power plants by 30 

17 percent by 2030, 16 years from now, is not enough 

18 or soon enough. Climate change is a critical 

19 situation, and timing is urgent. We need to work 

20 better and faster. Not just our health, but our 

21 survival as a human species is at stake.

22 God created a beautiful planet for us to 

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1 live on with abundant clean air, clean water, 

2 clean land, and gave us the responsibility to 

3 care for it. Since the industrial revolution, we 

4 have done a good job of fouling this gift of the 

5 Earth that God has given to us.

6 EPA, we are counting on you to do what is 

7 in your power to reduce carbon emissions from 

8 power plants. You may be our last hope. But 

9 will you have the strength to act to make rules 

10 more stringent, or will you be like Congress and 

11 fail to act?

12 In a list of EPA goals, the first goal is 

13 to address climate change and improve air 

14 quality. If you live up to this challenge, 

15 don’t' stop there. Controlling one-third of 

16 carbon pollution that comes from power plants 

17 won't solve global climate change. The U.S. 

18 needs to be a leader in energy efficiency and 

19 energy production and be a model for countries 

20 across the globe, just as we were a model, 

21 unfortunately, for excessive energy use and 

22 unsustainable and thoughtless sources of energy. 

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1 The world looks to the U.S. as a leader. Show 

2 the world the just and sustainable way to reduce 

3 carbon dioxide emissions that are implicated in 

4 causing climate change. We are depending on you.

5 Thank you so much.

6 MS. TONEY: Thank you. Thank you, 

7 ladies.

8 Our next speakers are David White and 

9 Harry Gregory.

10 [Pause.]

11 MS. TONEY: Mr. White or Mr. Gregory?

12 MR. WHITE: Yes.

13 MS. TONEY: Mr. White.

14 MR. WHITE: Mr. White.

15 MS. TONEY: Mr. Gregory present?

16 [No audible response.]

17 MR. WHITE: David White, D-a-v-i-d, 

18 W-h-i-t-e.

19 Thank you for the opportunity to submit 

20 testimony in support of EPA's proposed clean 

21 power rule. My name is David White, and I am the 

22 Director of the Gulf of Mexico Restoration 

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1 Campaign for the National Wildlife Federation. I 

2 live in St. Petersburg, Florida, but my work 

3 covers the entire Gulf Coast.

4 The goal of the Gulf Campaign is to 

5 ensure the recovery of fish and wildlife 

6 populations in the communities of the entire Gulf 

7 Coast, following the BP oil spill disaster in 

8 April of 2010.

9 As devastating as the oil spill was, 

10 climate change and ocean acidification from 

11 carbon pollution are still the largest threats 

12 facing coastal fish and wildlife resources, 

13 marine ecosystems, and coastal communities. If 

14 we fail to dramatically reduce carbon pollution, 

15 accelerating climate change and ocean 

16 acidification could eventually undermine all of 

17 our restoration efforts, waste literally tens of 

18 billions in restoration dollars, escalate 

19 degradation of important coastal ecosystems, and 

20 increase threats to entire coastal communities.

21 About 10 million people live along the 

22 Gulf Coast. These communities face increasing 

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1 challenges from annual natural disasters, such as 

2 hurricanes and severe coastal flooding, and from 

3 long-term hazards, such as storm-induced erosion, 

4 land subsidence, and sea-level rise.

5 In just the past 10 years, eight of the 

6 costliest hurricanes in American history caused 

7 an estimated $225 billion in damages to the five 

8 Gulf states. Hurricanes in Katrina and Rita in 

9 2005 caused the loss of 217 square miles of 

10 Louisiana's coastal wetlands, destroying 

11 important nesting, wintering, and foraging areas 

12 for countless birds, including ducks and 

13 waterfowl, wading birds, and migrating songbirds. 

14 The estuaries and coastal systems of the 

15 Gulf Coast, such as the Mississippi River Delta, 

16 Mobile Bay, Galveston Bay, Tampa Bay, and the 

17 Mississippi Sound, provide critical nursery 

18 habitat for 80 to 95 percent of all of the 

19 commercial and recreational fish species in the 

20 Gulf and support nationally important oysters and 

21 shrimp industries.

22 Many of these areas have been recognized 

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1 as estuaries of national significance by EPA's 

2 national estuary program, and they are 

3 particularly vulnerable to climate change.

4 From Florida to Texas, increasing erosion 

5 of coastal barrier islands undermine storm 

6 protection for coastal communities, degrades 

7 beaches and supports the local tourism economy, 

8 and affect numerous species like Kemp's ridleys 

9 and loggerhead sea turtles. Just about all of 

10 the wildlife species that occur along the coast 

11 are at increasing risk from habitat loss from 

12 rising sea levels associated with the climate 

13 change. While these coastal habitats might 

14 naturally move inland as sea levels rise, the 

15 current rate of increase is likely to be too fast 

16 for these natural processes to occur.

17 Efforts to resist increasing coastal 

18 erosion by building sea walls and other hard 

19 infrastructure will prevent inland migration of 

20 coastal habitats and lead to even more loss of 

21 coastal wetlands.

22 Coral reefs are among the most important 

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1 biologically ecosystems in the Gulf, supporting 

2 high levels of biodiversity and providing 

3 significant economic value through tourism and 

4 fishery habitat. Oyster and coral reefs in the 

5 Gulf provide many human services, including 

6 reducing shoreline erosion and storm surge, 

7 creating habitat from many other species, and 

8 providing water quality by filtering nutrients 

9 and sediments. These habitats have declined as a 

10 result of increased water temperature and 

11 increasing ocean acidity from carbon pollution.

12 Ocean surface waters have become 30 

13 percent more acidic as they absorb large amounts 

14 of atmospheric carbon, adversely affecting 

15 shell-building organisms like corals, krill, 

16 oysters, clams, and crabs, and thereby 

17 threatening the entire marine food chain.

18 Clearly, our changing climate is already 

19 altering the physical, chemical, and biological 

20 characteristics of our oceans, coasts, and 

21 adjacent watersheds. Increasing air and water 

22 temperatures, changing precipitation patterns, 

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1 rising sea levels, and ocean acidification will 

2 increasingly confound efforts to restore or 

3 sustain coastal ecosystems. Actions taken now to 

4 significantly reduce carbon pollution will reduce 

5 future impacts from storms and sea-level rise, 

6 significantly decreasing the expense of response 

7 and recovery.

8 We owe it to future generations to make 

9 these necessary reductions in carbon pollutions 

10 now.

11 Thank you for this opportunity to express 

12 our strong support for EPA's historic action to 

13 combat climate change and ocean acidification. 

14 Thank you.

15 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

16 Is Harry Gregory present? Harry Gregory?

17 [No audible response.]

18 MS. TONEY: All right. At this time, do 

19 we have anyone else who is present who would like 

20 to speak at this time, who may not have signed up 

21 but is present and would like to speak?

22 Yes. If you would, please come and give 

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1 us your name. and spell your name for us for the 

2 record.

3 MS. EILERMANN: My name is Jana 

4 Eilermann, J-a-n-a. Last name is 

5 E-i-l-e-r-m-a-n-n.

6 MS. TONEY: Can you spell that for me 

7 again? I'm sorry.

8 MS. EILERMANN: Yeah. It's tough. 

9 E-i-l-e-r-m-a-n-n. I am coming today from 

10 Asheville, North Carolina. I work there in 

11 mental health care, and my background is in 

12 wilderness and environmental education. I come 

13 here because I feel a strong connection to the 

14 environment around me, and because of that, the 

15 need to protect it.

16 I am studying ecopsychology which relates 

17 how we relate to nature as to how we relate to 

18 ourselves, and when I look at my students and 

19 myself and my family members and I see a massive 

20 amount of depression, anxiety, and ADHD, I know 

21 that that's not necessarily related to ourselves 

22 but how we're relating to our environment. And 

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1 we're looking at our environment as a way, like 

2 we are better than the environment. We need to 

3 own it, we need to understand it and manipulate 

4 the environment. I don't think that is a very 

5 healthy way to look at it.

6 When I think about the energy crisis and 

7 what we are going through now trying to find 

8 enough energy resources and use things 

9 appropriately, I think a lot of our approach is 

10 we are better than the environment, we need to 

11 own it, we need to dominate it.

12 So from my perspective, I would like to 

13 see the EPA kind of hold us accountable to that 

14 and force people to relate to nature a little bit 

15 better and as more of a collaborative effort as 

16 we're trying to move forward and create something 

17 that is sustainable and can last a while.

18 Thank you.

19 MS. TONEY: Thank you.

20 Do we have anyone else that would like to 

21 add their testimony to the record at this time?

22 [No audible response.]

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1 MS. TONEY: One more. Anyone else who 

2 would like to add their testimony at this time?

3 [No audible response.]

4 MS. TONEY: Seeing none, at this time, we 

5 are going to adjourn -- not adjourn. Let me 

6 correct that. We are going to recess. We are 

7 going to recess until we have additional speakers 

8 or until 8 p.m., whichever arrives first.

9 Let me say thank you to those of you who 

10 have come and who have taken out your time to 

11 share with us this evening. We do greatly 

12 appreciate that.

13 At this time, we will stand in recess 

14 until we have additional speakers.

15 [Recess taken from 7:45 to 8 p.m.]

16 MS. TONEY: It is now officially 8 p.m., 

17 and we are adjourned until tomorrow. Thank you.

18 [Whereupon, at 8 p.m., the Public Hearing 

19 was adjourned, to reconvene at 9 a.m., Wednesday, 

20 July 30, 2014.]

21

22

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