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MR. CLOVIS: Other than what | sent biographically to Jared Kushner, |
don't know what else he knew.

MR. SWALWELL: What did Mr. Kushner know about Mr. Page prior to the
March 21st, 2016, announcement?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure, other than what | sent him biographically.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it fair to say that Mr. Page was put on the team by
your recommendation?

MR. CLOVIS: He was a-- yes. That's fair.

MR. SWALWELL: Other than Mr. Lewandowsky and Mr. Glassner, who
were aware of Mr. Page's multiple references to contacts in Russia and connecting
Mr. Trump with Mr. Putin, did you tell anyone else on the campaign about
Mr. Page's Russian suggestions?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not that I recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it possible that you could have?

MR. CLOVIS: | would not speculate on that. | doubt it, because | was -- |
had no -- at that point, | had virtually no impact or input on anything related to
foreign policy other than putting this team together and arranging that March 31st
meeting at Trump International.

MR. SWALWELL: But that's a pretty big impact, to put the team together,
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | was asked to, and | had the names, and so, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware as to whether candidate Trump made
any phone calls to tell individuals that they were going to be on the team?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not aware of any of that.

MR. SWALWELL: That now-widely-known March 31st meeting -- I'm going

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MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Papadopoulos ever inform you whether he and
Mr. Bannon were making a joint effort to arrange a Presidential meeting, or
candidate Trump meeting with President el-Sisi?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, | never -- never was part of that discussion.

MR. SCHIFF: After the meeting that was depicted in the photograph, the
first meeting with the candidate among that foreign policy team, there was a
private meeting immediately thereafter, | thought it was a lunch meeting but in a
restaurant. Did you participate in that?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember that.

MR. SCHIFF: Among the different foreign policy advisers, including Walid
Phares and George Papadopoulos, apparently went across the street to get a bite
to eat, and the conversation that took place in the meeting depicted in the
photograph continued. Did you attend that?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, | did not. | went back to my -- I'm pretty sure that |.
would have remembered that meeting and no, | don't remember being there.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Papadopoulos stated that the professor informed him,
as my colleague alluded to in late April, that they were -- Russians were in
possession of dirt on Hillary Clinton in the form of thousands of emails. So we're
abundantly clear on this, did Mr. Papadopoulos ever communicate that fact to
you?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember that at all.

MR. SCHIFF: Would you remember it if he had?

MR. CLOVIS: | probably would. Yes, | would.

MR. SCHIFF: Particularly in light of the fact that subsequently it would

become known that the Russians did possess her emails?

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MR. SWALWELL: And you didn't express, at least in email, any counter
views that you had on Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: Not in emails, no, but | told him pretty clearly what | thought.

MR. SWALWELL: In this email, he is expressing to you that he has been
overseas. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. He's also expressing that he has ties to the
Kremlin. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Uh-huh.

MR. SWALWELL: He also expresses he has high-level contacts in Russia,
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: And he also says that he wants to connect, as | said,
Mr. Trump to Mr. Putin, right?

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell anyone about this email after you read it?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, Glassner was on it. | didn't think | needed to.

MR. SWALWELL: So is that a no?

MR. CLOVIS: That's ano.

MR. SWALWELL: Did it concern you that you had somebody who you had
met with in person at Trump Tower, he had your email, he at least was offering
advice for your candidate, and that they were views that were, it sounds like,

180 degrees different from how you perceived Russia?
MR. CLOVIS: He wasn't talking to the candidate, so | didn't care.

MR. SWALWELL: He responds to your email on -- I'm sorry -- on

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Appearances:

For the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE:

For SAMUEL H. CLOVIS, JR.:

VICTORIA TOENSING, ESQ.
diGenova & Toensing, LLP
1776 K Street, NW

Suite 737

Washington, D.C. 20006

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[2:15 p.m.]

MR. SCHIFF: But you would recall if you received the document from one
of your few foreign policy advisers that came from the Russian Ministry of
Affairs -- Foreign Affairs, wouldn't you?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | would, probably, yeah.

MR. SCHIFF: And did Mr. Papadopoulos from mid-June through
mid-August pursue with you the idea of an off-the-record meeting between one or
more campaign representatives and members of president Putin's office and the
MFA?

MR. CLOVIS: | was pretty busy during that time, sir. |'m not exactly sure
what he pursued or didn't pursue other than what may be in those exchanges.

MR. SCHIFF: So you don't recall, as we sit here today, whether
Mr. Papadopoulos proposed to you that he or one of the other campaign
representatives meet with members of Putin's office or the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs.

MR. CLOVIS: | would never have encouraged him to do that.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, my question is whether he pursued this with you?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall that.

MR. SCHIFF: Is it your testimony, Mr. Clovis, that when Mr. Papadopoulos
referred to another campaign adviser, he's referring to Walid Phares?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure who that would be.

MR. SCHIFF: If the subject -- well, the subject of Mr. Papadopoulos’ plea
is about Russia. Was there any one else that you were recommending with
Mr. Papadopoulos undertake a trip to Russia or meet with Russian officials?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, | never -- I'll say it again, | never would have

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decision.

MR. SWALWELL: How were you told?

MR. CLOVIS: | was told to contact him and tell him that he couldn't -- he
needed to make sure that he never represented himself as a member of the -- as a
part of the campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you see Mr. Page at the Republican National
Convention?

MR. CLOVIS: | did indeed.

MR. SWALWELL: How many times?

MR. CLOVIS: Once.

MR. SWALWELL: Where?

MR. CLOVIS: It was the last day of the convention. It was at a -- there
was a -- RNC had set up a diplomat forum out at -- | think it's Case Western. Is
that the college there in Detroit?

MS. TOENSING: Cleveland.

MR. CLOVIS: Cleveland. Excuse me, in Cleveland. Case Western?

We were out on the campus of Case Western. And it had been something
RNC had set up, and they had a host of ambassadors. And it was myself,
Governor Bob Ehrlich, one of the vice presidents from Ford Corporation, myself on
apanel. We did about an hour-long panel there. Carter was there.

And then --

MR. SWALWELL: He was on the panel, or he was in the audience?

MR. CLOVIS: No. He was in the audience.

And then again at the -- there was a European Union panel that was set up

by the RNC in town. | don't remember the venue. But it was a member of the

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MR. CLOVIS: Correct.

MR. SWALWELL: And she says, "Can you please send me the best
telephone number for each of the members of our national foreign policy team?
My father would like to reach out to them today." —

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: You respond with the phone numbers for eight
individuals. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's correct.

MR. SWALWELL: Including Carter Page? Yes?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And including George Papadopoulos. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's correct.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

And then -- | think we now have a more complete version of the
Trump-produced email on the back page, subject line, "Expect a Call" -- you email
the individuals that you referenced to Ms. Trump at 9:39 a.m. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And it appears that George Papadopoulos and Carter
Page are both a part of that "gentlemen" group that we discussed earlier. Is that
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

And now that you have seen this email exchange originating with Ivanka,
and then understanding who you were emailing to expect a call, do you recall

whether Mr. Trump called any of these individuals?

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MR. CLOVIS: That was campaign headquarters, by the way.

MR. SWALWELL: Can you recall if it was in the winter of 2016, meaning
January, February, and March?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, it was.

MR. SWALWELL: Itwas. Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And what were the circumstances of meeting Carter
Page?

MR. CLOVIS: | had come over from the hotel | was staying in in New York.
We always showed up for work really early. And so | came over, got into Trump
Tower, went up to the fifth floor, and | walked -- literally ran into him when he
was -- he was talking to Corey Lewandowski and Michael Glassner. Corey said,
"Sam, this is Carter Page. | think you need to get to know him."

So that's where | met Carter. We spent about 10 or 15 minutes in that first
encounter. We just went into the conference room and sat down. | just tried to
find out who he was and what it was about.

MR. SWALWELL: Who else was there?

MR. CLOVIS: Just me and him.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And Corey at least appeared to you to have
already met him or had a relationship with him?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. It appeared so. | mean, we had people show up all
the time. | mean, you never knew for sure what was going on. But Corey --

MR. SWALWELL: Had you ever heard of Carter Page before that?

MR. CLOVIS: Never. Never.

MR. SWALWELL: Is that the first time you had met someone new to the

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MR.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk to Eric about your contacts with George

CLOVIS: No, sir.

Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir,no. That was never the relationship we had with

the children.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk to Eric about your contacts with Carter

Page?

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: How about Paul Erickson?
CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: Did you ever meet Dimitri Simes?

CLOVIS: No, sir. | read a lot of his stuff, never met him.

SWALWELL: How about Roger Stone?
CLOVIS: No, sir.

SWALWELL: You'd not meet Roger Stone.
CLOVIS: No, sir, | do not know Roger Stone.
SWALWELL: Felix Sater?

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: Oleg Deripaska?

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: Nigel Ferage?

CLOVIS: No, | only know of him.

SWALWELL: You didn't meet him?

Sergei Gorkov?

MR.

CLOVIS: No. | only know of him.

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Clinton emails through the dark web?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir. | don't recall that at all.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Chairman, if we could have about a 5- or 10 minute
break, we want to finish going through the documents. We're trying to avoid
necessity of bringing Mr. Clovis back. But if we could have a brief break to go
through that, we should be able to wrap up shortly.

MR. CONAWAY: Let's reconvene at 10 until.

MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Recess.]

MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Swalwell, 15 minutes.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Clovis, are you aware of a trip that Donald Trump
dr. took to Paris in October 2016?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Have you ever heard of the Center of Political and
Foreign Affairs in Paris?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Have you ever met Fabien Baussart, B-a-u-s-s-e-r-t?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | have no idea who that is. Great name, though.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Rhonda Kassis, K-A-S-S-I-S?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: We discussed earlier a statement of facts, Mr. Schiff
and | both asked you questions about Mr. Papadopoulos' statement of facts, and |
want to clarify. You stated that you were not the quote, unquote, "high campaign
official" | referred to. Who was higher than you at that time in the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, it would have been Michael Glassner, Corey

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MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever express any of these contacts to you by
telephone or in person?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm sure he did.

MR. SWALWELL: Why are you sure he did?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, I'm just -- that was George. He was always trying to
insinuate himself into the campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: Was he trying to insinuate himself into the campaign
with respect to any contacts or relationships he had outside of Russia?

HE Five minutes.

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not -- I'm not sure | understand your question.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, you told me earlier that, with Mr. Page, it was
primarily Russia, and he talked a little bit about energy --

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: -- non-related to Russia, but you can't recall anything
other than Russia and energy that Mr. Page talked about.

| am asking if Mr. Papadopoulos, other than his contacts with Russia, did he
try and insinuate himself into the campaign or leverage any other relationships he
had?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | think he was -- he purported himself as a Middle East
expert. And | think he probably had a -- probably a more aggressive dialogue
with Walid Phares than he did with me about that.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Papadopoulos ever inform you of any of his
foreign travel while he was with the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, he lived in London, so he traveled extensively. And |

don't recall any specifics on that, sir. I'm sorry.

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new numbers.

MR. SWALWELL: Thank you for sharing that.

MS. TOENSING: Sure.

MR. CLOVIS: What about that?

MR. SWALWELL: Do you recognize this email?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: It's an email, subject line, "Russia, the debate." Is that
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah, | see it. Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And Mr. Page addresses Is -
Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: That was your campaign email address?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And when you say you don't recognize it, is it that you
don't recall it or --

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall it. No, that is my email. | don't recall the
email. I'm sorry I'm not clear.

MR. SWALWELL: So Mr. Page in that email says, "Sam, just finished my
dentist appointment and I'm free to talk when convenient. Please let me know
what time is best for you. Does 2 pm work? Carter."

MR. CLOVIS: And | respond, "Perfect. Call you then."

MR. SWALWELL: Yes. And you respond, again, under an hour later. Is
that right?

MR. CLOVIS: It appears so, yeah. No -- yeah, an hour and 1 minute,

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MR. SWALWELL: How long did the dinner last?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, hour and a half, 2 hours.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever see Mr. Erickson talk to Mr. Sessions?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: In the email, in the third paragraph, Mr. Erickson says,
"Was Trump supporter Carter Page's recent visit to Moscow (major speech
delivered a couple of weeks ago) his idea based upon his previous years in
Russia, or were you (or the campaign) aware of or sanctioned his remarks?

So, from the reading of the email, it sounds like you were made aware on
July 19th by Mr. Erickson that Carter Page had gone to Moscow.

MR. CLOVIS: Well, it was after -- it was already in the news. So, | mean,
I'm guessing it was. Ihave no idea. | can't keep track of the timeline here.

MR. SWALWELL: And then Mr. Erickson says, "Carter EXACTLY echoes
the 'new relationship with Russia’ strains echoed at the dinner, by nominee Trump
and by smart international security experts."

Was Mr. Trump at the dinner?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Was anyone in the Trump family at the dinner?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: "His speech is sweeping the Russian internet AND has
deeply interested the most inner circles of the Kremlin. For a host of reasons, it
has further reinforced Putin's / Russia's desire for a Trump victory over a pointless
‘Hillary re-set’ administration."

Did you ever respond to Mr. Erickson's email?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure.

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virtually no input on foreign policy.

And | think what was, you know, going on is that these guys were still
looking for contacts inside the campaign, and | was the one that maintained those
contacts, even though | would never advance any of their ideas or thoughts above
my level.

MR. CONAWAY: That meeting on March 31st, did you stay for the whole
meeting?

MR. CLOVIS: | did for the whole meeting, yes.

MR. CONAWAY: Okay. Do you recall any interaction at that meeting that
Page might have had, Carter Page might have had?

MR. CLOVIS: Carter Page was not at that meeting.

MR. CONAWAY: Okay. How about George Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: George was at the meeting, and he spoke for about
2 minutes.

MR. CONAWAY: All right. Anybody at the meeting suggest following up
on Carter Page's previously suggested meetings with Putin, that he was --

MR. CLOVIS: Never brought up.

MR. CONAWAY: -- the main guy?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, never brought up.

MR. CONAWAY: All right. Was Russia brought up much at all?

MR. CLOVIS: George tried to bring it up, but | -- and, again, this is based
on what other -- | honestly don't remember George saying anything in the meeting
other than, when he started talking, Senator Sessions interrupted him, and then
the candidate interrupted him, and he did not get to say any more, and they moved

to the next person.

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MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall him telling me that he was going.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it possible that he did?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Page spoke to our committee last month, and he
was asked by me, "Did you speak with Mr. Clovis about your trip to Moscow in
July 2016 after you returned?" Mr. Page responded, "I did, because | saw him at
the Republican National Convention."

Did Mr. Page tell you at the Republican National Convention that he was --

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall. Honestly, | don't remember him telling me
that he was going. | do remember | was surprised when | found out he had gone.
So if he did tell me, it didn't register.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you find out about it before it was reported in the
press or after?

MR. CLOVIS: No, it was after. It was in the press. | think that
was -- that's what | thought was so stunning about it.

MR. SWALWELL: Just to be clear, your testimony is that the first time you
heard Carter Page had gone to Moscow was when it was reported in the press?

MR. CLOVIS: That's -- that's the first time | recall being aware that he had
gone to Moscow.

MR. SWALWELL: If he had asked you if he could go to Moscow, what
would you have told him?

MR. CLOVIS: | would've told him, like | would tell anyone, you go as an
independent person, and you do not represent the campaign, you cannot
represent yourself as a member of the campaign. But! can't tell anybody that

they can't travel.

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committee on national security on the plane. And Senator Sessions,
then-Senator Sessions, had apparently talked to the candidate and volunteered to
be the chairman of that committee.

MR. CONAWAY: Foreign policy or national security?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, it was a national security advisory committee, is what
it was.

MR. CONAWAY: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: And, if you remember, at that time, we had already had
recently, like, 50 people sign a letter that were Never Trumpers, and then another
100 foreign policy people signed a letter -- it was in The Washington Post and New
York Times -- Never Trumpers. And so we were getting beat up pretty badly by
the press. So the effort was to try to alleviate some of the press pressure by
having a national advisory committee put together.

And so we had talked about it on the flight, | think it was back to New York.

MR. CONAWAY: "We." Could you --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. It was the candidate, myself, Stephen Miller, Corey
Lewandowski, and Michael Glassner, that inner circle that were campaign people.

When | got back to lowa on, | think it was the 12th or 13th, something like
that, | got a phone call from Jared Kushner in the evening, and Jared said, can you
put a team together?

And so | spent the night and the next day cobbling together these eight
individuals that became the national advisory committee, with Senator Sessions as
the chairman. And that committee included Keith Kellogg, General Keith Kellogg;
General Bert Mizusawa; General Gary Harrell; Admiral Chuck Kubic; George

Papadopoulos; Carter Page; Walid Phares; and I'm missing someone. But there

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Fifteen minutes.

MR. SWALWELL: And it was your testimony earlier that the reason you
did not speak with Mr. Lewandowski and Mr. Glassner was because you saw them
on the email exchange. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: So you assumed they were aware. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: | assumed, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you know that Mr. Page had traveled to Budapest
during the summer of 2016?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: We'll go to exhibit 11. It's a May 16, 2016, email.

MS. TOENSING: 0092 is supposed to be 11, according to my figures. So
are we on a new one, or are we on the same one? Are we on 0092?

MR. SWALWELL: Twelve. It would be 12, yeah. The next one would be
12.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 12
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: It's a May 16, 2016, email, Bates stamped 182.

While they search for that email, Mr. Clovis, to your knowledge, when did
Mr. Page's affiliation with the campaign end?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not exactly sure. | couldn't give you a specific date. It
would be after the Russia trip.

MR. SWALWELL: Was the Russia trip the reason that his affiliation
ended?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure what the decision was. | was not part of that

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MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell him whether or not you or the
campaign had sanctioned Mr. Page's trip to Moscow?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | would not have ever discussed that with him.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you sanction Mr. Page's trip to Moscow?

MR. CLOVIS: | have said many times no.

MR. SWALWELL: On April 26, 2016, the Center for the National Interest
hosted an event at the Mayflower Hotel. Are you familiar with that event?

MR. CLOVIS: No. Oh, is that the foreign policy speech? Is that the --

MR. SWALWELL: There was a foreign policy speech hosted by Dmitri
Simes and the Center for the National Interest --

MR. CLOVIS: Is that where Mr. Trump gave a speech?

MR. SWALWELL: Yes.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. Okay.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you there?

MR. CLOVIS: . No, | was not.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you part of the planning for that event?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not the planning of it at all. No.

MR. SWALWELL: What did you know before that event?

MR. CLOVIS: | knew that they were in the -- "they" being the New York
crowd -- was in the process of putting together a speech for Mr. Trump.

MR. SWALWELL: You mentioned that you worked on Mr. Trump's debate
prep. Did you ever work on his speech prep for major addresses?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, during the campaign, up through the last debate, | did
most of the -- of his -- he didn't use a text, he used talking points. So it was my

job to put together the talking points for all of his campaign events.

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Mr. Papadopoulos had other roles in the campaign that were outside your
knowledge?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: During or shortly thereafter, | think it was during Mr. Page's
trip to Russia on July 8th, he emailed J.D. Gordon, Walid Phares, and Tera Dahl,
with a document entitled Feedback From Russia Executive Summary. "Please
see attached an executive summary of the feedback | received in Moscow this
week. I've tried to follow the campaign's format per the document J.D. sent us in
recent days. Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or requests
you would like to discuss."

Did -- were you aware that Carter Page had sent a readout to J.D. Gordon,
Walid Phares and Tera Dahl of his trip to Moscow?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you have any idea why you would be left off this email?

MR. CLOVIS: Well maybe -- no, sir, | don't. | don't have any idea to
answer you directly.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Page also emailed communicating that he had received
significant insights and outreach during his meeting Russia, that he'd met with
members of the Duma and Presidential administration. Was that information ever
conveyed to you?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Clovis, did you have any role at all in the debate over
the Ukraine amendment --

MR. CLOVIS: No. /

MR. SCHIFF: -- at the convention?

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MR. CLOVIS: I've been the senior White House adviser to the United
States Department of Agriculture.

MR. CONAWAY: All right.

Well, we'll turn it over to the other side.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you want a break?

MR. CLOVIS: No. I'm good.

MS. TOENSING: Why don't we just take a break? Five minutes.

[Recess.]

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Clovis, going back to February 10th, 2016,
Mr. Page emailed you, copying Corey Lewandowski and Michael Glassner,
thanking you for the discussion yesterday.

And my counsel just stepped out, and she has the emails. I'll read the
email to you when she gets back.

MR. CONAWAY: Is that the one they already passed out?

MR. SWALWELL: No, it's a new one.

Do you recall Mr. Page emailing you and thanking you for a discussion in
February?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

Mike, let me grab our lawyer and tell her | need those exhibits.

[Recess.]

MR. SWALWELL: So we need the February 10th email.

M(B ates stamped 97807

MR. SWALWELL: Yes.

So, as he's reading that, Mr. Chairman, I'd just ask to mark this as exhibit 4.

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Do you recognize that email?

MR. CLOVIS: Ido.

MR. SWALWELL: And Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Page are on that email.
Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Was this part of the process of developing the foreign
policy framework?

MR. CLOVIS: | think it was a revision to it. I'm just looking at the dates
here, and I'm trying to guess what that was about. This is -- this would be
something | -- yeah. Yeah. | recognize it.

| One minute, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: The March 31st meeting, Mr. Papadopoulos, you
testified, was there.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, he was. Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Where did you sit?

MR. CLOVIS: |'m -- that picture, if you look at the very right, in the back,
you know, over -- you see Walid Phares there in the picture?

MR. SWALWELL: Yes.

MR. CLOVIS: If you would go to the right and back, I'm sitting against the
wall back there. I'm out of the picture.

MR. SWALWELL: Who else is out of the picture?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, it would have been Dan Scavino, Hope Hicks, Corey
Lewandowski, Stephen Miller. I'm not sure who else was there.

MR. SWALWELL: How long did the meeting last?

MR. CLOVIS: One hour.

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put in your phone or as a blocked number?

MR. CLOVIS: No. Itwould come up as a phone number.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did he ever call you and it would come up as a
blocked number? Did that ever occur?

MR. CLOVIS: No. A lot of people did, but not him.

MR. SWALWELL: And was it always the same number that he would call
you from, or was it always a different number?

MR. CLOVIS: | wouldn't say always different, but it was -- you know, if |
knew the phone call was coming in and it was a 212 area code, | would take the
call.

MR. SWALWELL: Sure.

Did you ever text with candidate Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever email with him?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever deal with a woman named Rhona Graff?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Who do you understand her to be?

MR. CLOVIS: She was the executive vice president of Trump
Organization. She ran the office on the Trump Organization side.

MR. SWALWELL: Would you ever communicate a message that you wish
to be passed to candidate Trump through her?

MR. CLOVIS: Not through her, no. Not through Rhona.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you understand her as a person that people would

communicate messages through to get to candidate Trump?

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to Members of Congress or staff.

Lastly, the record will reflect that you are voluntarily participating in this
interview, which will be under oath.

| will now swear the witness.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MR. CLOVIS: I do.

Hct the record reflect the witness has answered in the
affirmative.

And | turn it over to the gentleman from Texas.

MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Clovis, thank you for being here this morning.

MR. CLOVIS: Thanks, gentlemen.

MR. CONAWAY: With that, Adam, over to you.

MR. SCHIFF: Welcome, Mr. Clovis.

MR. CLOVIS: Thank you, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Swalwell.

MR. SWALWELL: Thank you.

Welcome, Mr. Clovis.

MR. CLOVIS: Thank you.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Clovis, you're an lowan.

MR. CLOVIS: | am indeed.

MR. SWALWELL: Where are you from in lowa?

MR. CLOVIS: | live in the Sioux City area. Actually, the address is in

HER live out in the country.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Near South Dakota.

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general?

MR. CLOVIS: | have no knowledge of any of that.

MR. CONAWAY: How about a conspiracy to do anything among President
Trump, then candidate Trump, Trump campaign, Trump orbit and the Russians to
conspire to rig the election, to do anything with respect to having an impact on the
election?

THE WITNESS. | have no knowledge of any of that.

MR. CONAWAY: I'm trying to make sure | ask that question as broad as |
can --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: -- Mr. Clovis, because that's obviously the core of what
we're trying to get done --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: -- and | want to make sure we've got your perspective in
our record so that --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: -- we have that there.

HE vst briefly, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: All right.
,
Q The committee has four parameters for its investigation.
A Right.
Q What did Russia do with respect to interfering with the U.S. election?
Two, with whom, if anyone, did they doit? Number three, what was the U.S.

Government response? And, number four, discussing potential leaks of classified

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put -- that always raises my guard.

MR. SWALWELL: And you didn't hold this view about Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | did not.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Papadopoulos have your cell phone number?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he also have your personal email?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever discuss Russia with Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: He would send -- | think he sent me emails suggesting that
he had ways to get meetings and all this. But | never really responded in the
affirmative to that, you know, other than to just keep him in the fold.

MR. SWALWELL: According to his plea agreement, on March 14th, 2016,
he traveled to Italy and met a professor. Do you remember reading that in his
plea agreement?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you have any knowledge of Mr. Papadopoulos
traveling to Italy?

MR. CLOVIS: No. | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: The plea agreement went on to state that the professor
claimed to have substantial connections with Russian Government officials. Did
Mr. Papadopoulos ever express to you that he had met a professor with
connections with Russian Government officials?

MR. CLOVIS: George's emails would oftentimes have notations about the
fact that he had contacts that he thought would be valuable to the campaign and

that he would be willing to facilitate meetings.

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[1:07 p.m.]

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever talk to you in person about Joseph Mifsud?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: He mentions Putin's niece. Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever talk to you in person about meeting Putin's
niece?

MR. CLOVIS: Not that ! recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Is that something you would recall if he had?

MR. CLOVIS: | would, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: He also mentions the Russian Ambassador in London,
who is the Deputy Foreign Minister. Did he ever talk to you in person about the
Russian Ambassador in London?

MR. CLOVIS: | do not recall that.

MR. SWALWELL: . And, again, is that something you would recall if he
had?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | would, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And he mentions now that the topic of the lunch was to
arrange a meeting between us -- the campaign -- and Russian leadership to
discuss U.S.-Russia ties under President Trump. |s that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: That's what it says.

MR. SWALWELL: Now, this sounds quite similar to what Carter Page is
talking to you about. Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell Carter Page that George

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

WASHINGTON, D.C.

INTERVIEW OF: SAMUEL H. CLOVIS, JR.

Tuesday, December 12, 2017

Washington, D.C.

The interview in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, the Capitol

commencing at 11:01 a.m.
Present: Representatives Conaway, King, Ros-Lehtinen, Wenstrup,

Gowdy, Schiff, Himes, Carson, Speier, Quigley, Swalwell, Castro, and Heck.

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MR. SWALWELL: 218 to 219?

Counsel, do you have that one?

MS. TOENSING: | don't have that number. At least on this page, | don't.
Huh-uh.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, we'll get that. I'm going to move on.

| mentioned earlier that public press reporting in June 2016 from various
outlets reported that the Russians had hacked Democratic emails. Do you recall
that being reported?

MR. CLOVIS: Just the news, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And by this time, in June 2016, from our
conversation today, it sounds like at least two people on your team had told you
about contacts they had with Russia, Mr. Page and Mr. Papadopoulos. Is that
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone else, other than those two individuals, ever
mention to you contacts with Russia that they had, that they held, other than Mr.
Page or Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: That were part of the national advisory team or any of that?

MR. SWALWELL: Anyone on the campaign that you talked to.

MR. CLOVIS: Not on the campaign, no.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Anyone outside the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Who?

MR. CLOVIS: Mr. David Klein.

MR. SWALWELL: Who's David Klein?

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MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever communicate with Senator Sessions
about your interactions with George Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not specifically.

MR. SWALWELL: How about indirectly?

MR. CLOVIS: Only about the team, the national team, because he was
the chairman of it?

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever talk to Jeff -- Mr. Sessions about your
interactions with Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever talk to Mr. Sessions after you met
Mr. Erickson about what Mr. Erickson had offered you?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: During the campaign -- and these are just general
questions, Mr. Clovis -- did you ever provide any individual with any information
related to Hillary Clinton or another political candidate party?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of anyone who provided information to
an Russian Government, or an agent of Russian Government during the
campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of anyone who provided information .
about Hillary Clinton, or any other political candidate, or party to any other party
other individual during the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

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herself for the record, that would be appreciated.

MS. TOENSING: Victoria Toensing, T-o-e-n-s-i-n-g.

HS“ you can see, this interview will be transcribed. There is a
reporter making a record of the proceedings so that we can easily consult a written
compilation of your answers. Because the reporter cannot record gestures, we
ask that you answer verbally. If you forget to do this, you might be reminded to
doso. You may also be asked to spell certain terms or unusual phrases.

MR. CLOVIS: Sure.

HE Consistent with the committee's rules of procedure, you and
your counsel, upon request, will have a reasonable opportunity to inspect the
transcript of this interview in order to determine whether your answers are
correctly transcribed. The transcript will remain in the committee's custody.

The committee also reserves the right to request you return for additional
questions should the need arise.

The process for the interview is as follows: The minority will be given
45 minutes to ask questions; then the majority will be given 45 minutes to ask
questions. Immediately thereafter, we will take a 5-minute break if you desire,
after which the minority will be given 15 minutes to ask questions, the majority will
be given 15 minutes to ask questions.

These time limits will be strictly adhered to by all sides, with no extensions
being granted. Time will be kept for each portion of the interview, with warnings
given at the 5-minute and 1-minute mark respectively.

To ensure confidentiality, we ask that you do not discuss the interview with
anyone other than your attorney.

You are reminded that it is unlawful to deliberately provide false information

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MR. CLOVIS: David Klein is a financial person in New Jersey who
introduced himself to the campaign early on. It was through -- | don't know
exactly the organization, but they were -- it appeared that they had a stake in
antiballistic missile defense. And they were trying to get the -- get our campaign's
attention and to brief us up on what they were doing with antiballistic missile
technology.

MR. SWALWELL: What was Mr. Klein's relationship to Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | have no clue.

MR. SWALWELL: When | asked you if anyone -- | guess, what did he tell
you about Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: He had a rabbi that he knew that was -- that had contacts in
Russia.

MR. SWALWELL: And why would a rabbi in Russia assist with antiballistic
missile defenses in the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: You got me. That's about as far as it went.

MR. SWALWELL: Where was the meeting held?

MR. CLOVIS: You asked me the question; | --

MR. SWALWELL: Yeah, no, | appreciate --

MR. CLOVIS: -- answered the question. | have no clue where that
was -- where it came from. | have no idea. And it didn't go anywhere.

MR. SWALWELL: Where was the meeting held?

MR. CLOVIS: There was no meeting.

MR. SWALWELL: Where was the conversation?

MR. CLOVIS: It was in an email that he had sent. | think it was an email

or a text that he had sent me.

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Hampshire primary?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | am.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did you at this point tell anyone else that
Mr. Page has now mentioned to you by email two times connecting Mr. Trump and
Mr. Putin?

MR. CLOVIS: | did not.

MR. SWALWELL: Also on that email exchange was Mr. Glassner and
Mr. Lewandowski. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's correct.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you respond to Mr. Page's overture regarding the
Trump visit to Moscow?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did the two of you connect the next day by phone?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember. :

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Is that something that if we were to have your
phone records we would probably be able to find out?

MR. CLOVIS: | suppose.

MR. SWALWELL: * Did Mr. Page have your cell phone number?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Do you know if a call did occur the next day
with Mr. Page?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell Mr. Trump -- or did you ever tell
candidate Trump Mr. Page's offer?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

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MR. SWALWELL: How was it that George Papadopoulos was able to
bring up the idea of Donald Trump meeting Vladimir Putin in this meeting?

MR. CLOVIS: | need to probably give you the whole -- the evolution of the
meeting, which was really interesting. I'll use that term.

As you know, there's an array of people around the table. Mr. Trump
opens with some opening remarks. And then he starts down the left-hand side
with the people to introduce themselves and brief comments from them.

And he got to about the fourth or fifth person in that line, and it would
be -- that was Dr. Keith Payne. And Keith, as you know, is a world-renowned
scholar on national security issues and particularly nuclear doctrine. In fact, | had
him as a professor when | was going to Georgetown many, many, many years
ago.

And so Mr. Trump and Keith engaged in a very long discussion, about
40 minutes, talking about the nuclear arsenal, nuclear weapons, nuclear doctrine,
national security philosophy and policy about that. So it was about a 40-minute
discussion.

And so you can imagine, with all the rest of those people in the room, that
when we moved off of Dr. Payne, it was quick to the -- got around to Senator
Sessions and then over to, | think it was, J.D. Gordon and then up the line.

And when it got to George, George introduced himself, and he
Started -- and | -- this is the third or fourth time I've done this particular evolution. |
still do not recall what George said. | do not -- | cannot remember what he said.
But | know that he didn't get very far into the discussion, and Senator Sessions
interrupted him, and then Mr. Trump interrupted him. And so George's total

speaking time, probably 90 seconds to 2 minutes, and then it went to the next

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about Mr. Papadopoulos' offer in this March 24th email?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't remember that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you communicate with any person about
Mr. Papadopoulos’ offer?

MR. CLOVIS: No, because | thought it was a bogus offer. | didn't think it
was very good at politics on our part at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, you didn't tell Mr. Papadopoulos it was a bogus
offer, because in your response you started out with, "This is most informative."

Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. And what does it say? Do you want to read the
whole thing? Do you want me to read it into the record?

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Clovis, it's submitted in the record as an exhibit.
But you do end the email with, "Great work.” Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | do.

MR. SWALWELL: Why was that great work?

MR. CLOVIS: Because it's my job to make sure that | keep people in the
fold and that I'm a nice guy most of the time. And I'm trying very hard to cultivate
this particular group to keep them in line.

MR. SWALWELL: Why would you want to keep in the fold somebody who
has a relationship this close with -- or is telling you he has a relationship this close
with Vladimir Putin?

MR. CLOVIS: You're making an assertion in your question, and it's not
appropriate.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, Mr. Clovis --

MR. CLOVIS: The assertion in the question is that this person was up to

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about Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No. No, we were -- it was typical fundraiser stuff.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: And it was just really a chance to get to know him. And
he's quite engaging, very charming.

MR. SWALWELL: And in Council Bluffs, lowa, in 2015, did he ever
express his views on Russia to you?

MR. CLOVIS: No. No, not at all.

MR. SWALWELL: And, in 2015, from August until the end of the year, in
the interactions that you had with him at Mar-a-Lago, Trump Tower, on the phone,
or on the road, did he ever express to you any views on Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: He never expressed definitive views on Russia. It was --

MR. SWALWELL: What were the indefinitive views he expressed to you?

MR. CLOVIS: | would say that we would articulate or we would argue our
positions in front of him. He would listen to what we had to say. | wouldn't say it
was arguments so much as we were trying to settle on, you know, what we
thought was going on. There was a lot of moving parts, as you can imagine.

And | think he was having a lot of fun with the Putin thing.

MR. SWALWELL: What do you mean, "the Putin thing"?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | think it was the, you know, the bromance that he had
with the -- or the apparent bromance that was reported in the news, and | think he
really played up on that.

MR. SWALWELL: And how did you perceive him as playing up on that?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | just think he really liked poking the media, and that

was one way to do it.

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MR. SWALWELL: Are you concerned at this point?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Why not?

MR. CLOVIS: | didn't think that our campaign was headed in that direction.
And | think that, at least as far as my advice had been up to this point -- you have
to remember that my input to the campaign on foreign policy after the team was
put together had changed dramatically.

MR. SWALWELL: But you were a part of putting the team together.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Why did you put Mr. Page on the team?

MR. CLOVIS: Because he was one of the few people we could find that
had a credible enough background that we could put him on that team and would
help assuage the press, which is exactly what it did.

MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone on the campaign team ask you to find
someone with an expertise in Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, yeah. I mean, not necessarily Russia specifically, but
to find somebody that had, you know, some background. Russia was a topic that
was consistent in the debates. It was also a continuation of the poking that the
candidate was doing of the media, as far as the relationship with Putin. And he
was an energy expert as well.

MR. SWALWELL: You thought that Mr. Page's contacts with Russia were
consistent with the Presidential candidate --

MR. CLOVIS: | didn't say anything about his contacts with Russia. He
had knowledge of Russia. | don't want you to think for a moment | cared about

his contacts in Russia. What | cared about was his energy expertise and the fact

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or July, and | think he wanted to wait until that was out before he made a
commitment on whether he was going to support the campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: But he was certainly supportive of the campaign when
he spoke at the convention in July, right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, he was, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: In August, you encouraged Mr. Papadopoulos and
another adviser to make the trip if it's feasible. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, as private citizens, yeah. That was Walid Phares, |
think.

MR. SWALWELL: When you said "if it is feasible," what did you mean by
that?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, if they could go, | mean, they should go. | mean,
whatever the timing was, if they could go, they should go.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you mean feasible to them or feasible to the
campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: To them.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ask anyone to travel with Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: No. | don't recall that.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever ask Walid Phares if he would travel with
Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall asking Walid to do that specifically, no.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it possible that you did?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't recall that.

MR. SWALWELL: If Mr. Phares said that you did, would that be incorrect?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know. I don't know what he said. | don't recall that

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MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever ask permission to travel to Italy or London?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, not that | recall.

MR. SWALWELL: How did you know that he lived in London?

MR. CLOVIS: He told me he lived in London.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever travel abroad in 2016?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you have any knowledge from Mr. Papadopoulos
and your contacts with him as to whether he was ever in regular contact with
Steve Bannon?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever mention that he was in contact with Steve
Bannon to you?

MR. CLOVIS: No. | don't recall that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Papadopoulos ever tell you whether he was in
contact with General Flynn?

MR. CLOVIS: No, and | don't recall that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Ivanka Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Jared Kushner?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Attorney General Sessions?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not that | recall at all.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Corey Lewandowsky?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, he's on -- | think he had Corey on emails that he sent

to me occasionally, so, yeah.

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were eight -- oh, Joe Schmitz.

So there were eight people, and that was about all the people we had ona
Rolodex that were supportive of the President that had any cache at all. And so |
put together their bios and sent those back to the campaign, to Corey and to
Jared.

And the vetting that | had was what | was able to do online. And | had
talked to some of these people previously in passing, so | knew who they were. |
had not met all of them, but | knew who they were.

And so | put this team together, sent it to the campaign. And then they
rolled it out as the national advisory committee on national security.

MR. CONAWAY: So were you responsible for making those calls once
they agreed to the list?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. CONAWAY: And you talked to each of the eight?

MR. CLOVIS: | talked to all eight of them, yes, | did.

MR. CONAWAY: So we know how you met Carter Page. How had you
met or did you meet George Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: | think it was on the phone. | can't remember when | met
him in person for the first time.

MR. CONAWAY: When was that first phone call that you remember?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, just that he had contacted the campaign and that we
were -- Corey had asked me -- | think he had contacted Corey. | can't recall
exactly. But that was typical. People would contact the campaign; they would
contact Corey or Michael. And like a good goalie, they'd kick the ball -- the puck

into the corner, and it was my job to dig it out. So that was my job.

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MR. SWALWELL: And I'll let you refer to that one.

And | said February 12th, 2016. That's actually January 412th, 2016.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. This establishes the date of our first meeting.

MR. SWALWELL: So you recognize that email?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't recognize it, but it is -- you know, | don't
remember it. Let me put it that way.

MR. SWALWELL: And he references -- and | just want to clear up this to
get an exact date on the first meeting. He says, "It was a pleasure to meet each
of you today, upon Corey's introduction."

So would you say it's fair to say that January 12 was probably the first time
you met Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: | would say that's fair.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

Did Mr. Page ever discuss with you anything other than Russia in your
interactions with him in January and February 2016?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, we talked about a lot of things. You know, | had a lot
of conversations with him. | found him a very intelligent person. He had a Ph.D.
He had an excellent academic background.

He was a Naval Academy grad, and so we had a shared experience of
being service academy grads. And | think that that's always something that helps
get through a lot of the, | think, social conventions, because you have similar
experiences even though they were 20-some years apart.

MR. SWALWELL: With respect to policy, what do you recall
discussing -- what did you discuss with Mr. Page that was not related to Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | think -- | can't recall anything specifically, but I'm sure that

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numerous occasions that he was under oath in front of that court, and he probably
had the same obligation not to lie to the FBI. Is that your understanding?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: | yield back.

Fifteen minutes.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Clovis, we're still going through the production that we
received only today --

MR. CONAWAY: Excuse me for interrupting. I'll have to get this on the
record. | was handed that binder the same day we got it.

HR That's not true.

MR. CONAWAY: Well, my side says, according to [ij -- and JJ is a
bipartisan -- J a nonpartisan staffer -- handed the document to iy
was produced in a binder, not electronically. There was an exchange.

And so | challenge -- or not challenge, but | just want to make sure on the
record that you say one thing and I'll say the other. Let the record reflect.

MR. SCHIFF: I'm not interested in litigating this, Mr. Chairman. Let me
just rephrase the question.

MR. CONAWAY: Thank you.

MR. SCHIFF: In the materials that I've just been presented and have
barely had a chance to leaf through, | don't know all of what's in those materials
and | -- so | ask you this question without knowing the answer.

Mr. Papadopoulos, in his plea, says that he emailed you a document from
the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs that he wanted to pass along to you for you
to decide what's best to do with it. Did you produce that document in your

production to the committee?

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MR. CLOVIS: No, | do not.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Mr. Page refers to, "| know some people who
work closely with the Kremlin who made the comments, Dmitry Peskov." Is that
right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's what it says.

MR. SWALWELL: Who did you understand Mr. Peskov to be?

MR. CLOVIS: I have no idea who that is.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever discuss in person or by telephone with
Mr. Page about his relationship with Dmitry Peskov?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell anyone -- so the email is only
addressed to you. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: It looks that way, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell Mr. Lewandowsky about Mr. Page's offer?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall doing that.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell Mr. Glassner?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall doing that.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell Mr. Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: | would not have communicated this to Mr. Trump at all. |
know that for a fact.

MR. SWALWELL: And, again, this is another reference from Mr. Page to
Russia and his contacts.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

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making sure that -- because he interceded in this and | think he was the one that
told Carter to stand down, because Jason had taken on that role.

MR. SWALWELL: What does she mean when she says "countersigned to
the NDA"?

MR. CLOVIS: Just that somebody in the campaign had signed the NDA
That -- and Cassidy Dumbauld, see Dumbauld there? Cassidy is the one who
was the keeper of the paperwork.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk to Mr. Page?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know. | -- I'm absolutely sure that Jason was the
one that interceded on this.

MR. SWALWELL: How often did you communicate with Hope Hicks?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, fairly often as -- you know, she was the one that
coordinated -- | usually got permission to do all of my media appearances through
Hope, and then it was Bryan Lanza and Jason Miller, because Hope was dealing
predominantly with the candidate, but that evolved over time. Hope and |
communicated up through the time that Jason Miller and Bryan Lanza were
brought on to the campaign, and then they took over the media scheduling.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever communicate with Hope any conversation
or communications that you had with George Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you communicate with Hope prior to this email
exchange in exhibit 19, any conversations or communications you had with Carter
Page?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not that | remember.

MR. SWALWELL: Exhibit 20 works it email subject line some policy recs.

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we had a ranging discussion. He was an energy guy, so we probably talked -- |

talked about American energy, | know, with him.

MR. SWALWELL: But, again, are you speculating, Mr. Clovis, or do you

have any --
MR. CLOVIS: No, | remember talking about energy policy with him.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay.
MR. CLOVIS: Because that was really at the heart of a lot of what we
were trying to achieve economically, was to gain energy independence in this

country.

53

And we also, because | had been involved in tax reform efforts, a lot of our

trade policy discussions --
MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever discuss that with Carter Page?
MR. CLOVIS: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay.
February 17, 2016, exhibit 5, Carter Page emails you, copies
Mr. ‘Lewandowski.
MS. TOENSING: I'm confused. That was just exhibit 5, 9643, and it's
dated --
MR. SWALWELL: I'msorry. You're right. Exhibit 6. February 17th,
2016.
[Clovis Exhibit No. 6
was marked for identification.]
MR. SWALWELL: And the email subject line is "Trump Foreign Policy
Team," Bates stamped 9815.
MR. CLOVIS: Right.

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| believe we're on exhibit --

[Discussion off the record.]

MR. CONAWAY: Fifteen minutes.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 12
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: Let's go to exhibit 12. This is from the production that
we learned about this morning. It's an email between Mr. Clovis and Ivanka
Trump.

If you could review it. And, Mr. Clovis, again, just the way these emails
work, oftentimes they originate on the back page, and you have to read --

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. | get it.

MR. SWALWELL: -- from bottom to top.

MR. CLOVIS: | get it. ,

MR. SWALWELL: This one actually looks like it starts from top to bottom.

MS. TOENSING: [Inaudible]

MR. SWALWELL: Well, this is what was turned over to us from --

MS. TOENSING: [Inaudible.]

MR. SWALWELL: Well, this is what was turned over to us from --

HES is is from Mr. Clovis’ production.

MR. CONAWAY: Gentlemen, is there a question in our future?

MR. SWALWELL: He's reading --

MR. CLOVIS: No, I'm done.

MR. CONAWAY: There's not that much to read.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Clovis, this appears to be an email from Ivanka
Trump to you on March 22nd, 2016. Is that right?

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MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever see Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Trump
interact one-on-one in that meeting, prior to the meeting starting or at the
conclusion?

MR. CLOVIS: No,no. No. No. Never. | was in the room when
everybody came in. The meeting started promptly -- | can't remember if it was
9:00 or 10:00 in the moming -- started promptly. Everybody had their seats. And
it was typical to try to introduce themselves and go around the room.

It was a very interesting meeting, for a lot of reasons. But it was 1 hour,
and then at 1 hour it was over.

HE: Time.

MR. CLOVIS: And then there was -- some business leaders were brought

MR. SWALWELL: | yield back.

MS. TOENSING: I'm going to need to make a phone call.

MR. CONAWAY: Let's take a 5-minute break.

[Recess.]

MR. CONAWAY: Fifteen minutes.

MR. SWALWELL: Could the reporter read back my last question?

[The reporter read back the record as requested.]

MR. SWALWELL: To your knowledge, had candidate Trump and George
Papadopoulos chatted before the meeting?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: When they interacted with each other, did you get any
sense that the two had met or talked before?

MR. CLOVIS: Not at all.

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information.

A Right.

Q You just spoke with Chairman Conaway about the first two. I'll ask
you about the last two, starting with the fourth one first.

Are you aware of any leaks of classified information with respect to the
Russian Government interference with the 2016 Presidential election?

A No.

Q And do you have any personal knowledge about the U.S.
Government's response to the Russian interference in the --

A No.

Q -- 2016 Presidential election?

A Other than me being involved in these investigations, no.

MR. CONAWAY: So you explained to us that post-March 30th-ish ~

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. CONAWAY: -- your role changed. You became some sort of
ambassador after that.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. CONAWAY: Did that role -- how long did that last?

MR. CLOVIS: All the way up to the election.

| also -- | built coalitions. So my job was to go out and deal with that. So |
was principally responsible for putting together the agricultural and rural affairs
coalition, the Second Amendment coalition, the law enforcement coalition.

MR. CONAWAY: All right.

MR. CLOVIS: | worked with Alan Cobb on that.

MR. CONAWAY: And that was through the election. And after the

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MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

place?

MR.
MR.

day?

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No,

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL:

CLOVIS: No.

Sergei Gorkov?

sir.

Sergey Ivanov?

Aras Agalarov?

Emin Agalarov?

Rob Goldstone?

Ike Kaveladze?

Rinat Akhmetshin?

Anatoli Samochornov?

133

SWALWELL: Where were you when the June 9th, 2016 meeting took

CLOVIS: Where was that meeting?

SWALWELL: Trump Tower, were you there at Trump Tower that

CLOVIS: Oh,
SWALWELL: Natalia Veselnitskaya, have you ever met her?
CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: In July 2016, Donald Trump publicly stated that he

no, no, not atall. No.

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and in service of the campaign, wasn't he?

MR. CLOVIS: No. I don't recall that.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Papadopoulos -- let me read you from the information
he filed with court.

"On or about June 1st, 2016, defendant Papadopoulos emailed the
high-ranking campaign official and asked about Russia. The high-ranking
campaign official referred him to the campaign supervisor because ‘he is running
point."

"Defendant Papadopoulos then emailed the campaign supervisor with the
subject line 'Re: Messages from Russia.’ ‘I have the Russian MFA asking me if
Mr. Trump is interested in visiting Russia at some point. Wanted to pass this info
along to you for you to decide what's best to do with it and what message | should
send (or to ignore).'

"From mid-June through mid-August 2016, Papadopoulos pursued an
off-the-record meeting between one or more campaign representatives and
members of President Putin's office and the MFA.

"For example, on or about June 19th, 2016, after several email and Skype
exchanges with the Russian MFA connection, defendant Papadopoulos emailed
the high-ranking campaign official with the subject line, 'New message from
Russia.’

“The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs messaged and said that if
Mr. Trump is unable to make it to Russia, if a campaign rep (me or someone else)
can make it for meetings? | am willing to make the trip off the record if it's in the
interest of Mr. Trump and the campaign to meet specific people.’

“After several weeks of further communications regarding a potential

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MR. SCHIFF: And what I'm asking you is, did he pursue that with you
during that period of time?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall the specifics of that. | don't think | ever
acknowledged, or ever told him to have a meeting with anybody. And | think
maybe that's where I'm having difficulty answering your question, because | don't
remember ever exchanging an email, text, phone call or directly to him, ever
asking him to do this, or ever telling him to go to Russia.

MR. SCHIFF: And did -- you apart from emails and texts, did you discuss
it with him, either by phone or in person the offers that had been made by the
Russian MFA?

MR. CLOVIS: No. I can say with certainty that | did not -- we did not have
elaborate discussions. If he sent me emails and they were in there, | didn't
respond in kind. Those meetings never took place. | never would have
encouraged him to do that, and | didn't encourage him to do that.

MR. SCHIFF: We will be going through your production, Mr, Clovis.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: But if we go through the production and don't find the emails
that, or emails that -- or email or emails that Mr. Papadopoulos referenced when
he says he forwarded the May 4th MFA email to the high-ranking campaign
official, who you've identified as yourself --

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir. No, sir. I'm the campaign supervisor. I'm not the
campaign high-ranking official.

MR. SCHIFF: Oh, I'msorry. So then your testimony would be that you
don't recall ever seeing those emails?

MR. CLOVIS: I don't -- no, sir. | don't remember them. | do not.

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MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Was that ever raised with you by anyone in the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: So that was the first you learned about the debate over that
when you learned about it in the newspaper?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: | will yield back to Mr. Swalwell.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Clovis, | just want to go through some persons who
we have not talked about to see if you interacted with them during the campaign.

MR. CLOVIS: All right.

MR. SWALWELL: And this is something we've asked every witness. Did
you deal with Paul Manafort at all during the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Robert and Rebecca Mercer?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Alexander Nix?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Eric Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: In what capacity?

MR. CLOVIS: Eric was -- would be -- occasionally would travel with us, so
he was one of the -- so he was one of the children and had developed a very good
friendship with him.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever pass any messages to Eric that you would

wish for his father to receive?

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HE, Good morning. This is a transcribed interview of Sam Clovis.

Thank you for speaking with us today.

For the record, | am MEN a staff member of the House Permanent
Select Committee on Intelligence. We have a number of other members and staff
present, and they will identify themselves when they speak.

Before we begin, | wanted to state a few things for the record.

The questioning will be conducted by members and staff. During the
course of this interview, members and staff may ask questions during their allotted
time period. Some questions may seem basic, but that is because we need to
clearly establish the facts and understand the situation. Please do not assume
we know any facts you have previously disclosed as part of any other investigation
or review.

This interview will be conducted at the unclassified level. Andasa
reminder, | want to confirm that you guys left your electronics outside?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MS. TOENSING: Yep.

HR During the course of this interview, we will take any breaks
that you desire.

We ask that you give complete and fulsome replies to questions based on
your best recollection. If a question is unclear or you are uncertain in your
response, please let us know. And if you do not know the answer to a question or
cannot remember, simply say so.

You're entitled to have a lawyer present for this interview, though you are

not required to. | see that you do have a lawyer present, and if she would identify

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MS. TOENSING: It's blank on the other side.

MR. CLOVIS: Here itis.

MR. TOENSING: Oh.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you remember reading that email on October 28th
or around that time?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember reading it, no.

MR. SWALWELL: Your testimony is you've never met Peter Smith?

MR. CLOVIS: Never met him. Not that I'm aware of.

MR. SWALWELL: Any idea how he got your email address?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Ever hear anyone on the campaign discuss Mr. Smith?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, the email refers to Wikileaks. And WikiLeaks, to
your knowledge, in October was releasing hacked emails from John Podesta. Is
that right?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know for sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you remember that being a part of the campaign --

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | just remember the news. | mean, | don't know who
they were from. Were they Podesta's emails? | --

MR. SWALWELL: Do you remember John Podesta's emails being hacked
and released by WikiLeaks?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember specifically that, no. | had a lot of other
stuff on my mind.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell anyone about receiving this WikiLeaks

email?

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One, Carter Page's trip to Russia was before the convention. Is that
correct?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not -- | don't know the date of it.

MR. CONAWAY: | believe it was before the convention. So any
conversation you would've had with him at the convention would've been after the
trip, is your understanding?

MR. CLOVIS: [Nonverbal response.]

MR. CONAWAY: My colleague had a series of questions a while ago with
reference to Carter Page and his alleged contacts with Russia, Russians, and
Putin, et cetera. My colleague made the affirmative statement that Lewandowsky
and Glassner were aware of all those contacts simply because they were on the
email chains that you had received.

You, personally, can you confirm that statement, that they were, in fact,
aware of it?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, | can't.

MR. CONAWAY: So the statement that my colleague made would've been
his own statement, not your statement --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. CONAWAY: -- that you would've been associated with?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know what they were aware of and what they -- we
had hundreds and hundreds of emails every day. We were working 16 to
20 hours a day. | joined the campaign in August of 2015; | did not have a day off
until the end of March of 2017.

MR. CONAWAY: = Okay.

All right. | yield back.

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MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

You also referred to the team as a strong team. Why did you make that
reference?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | think | was asked to look at who we might have
available to put together on a team. | don't think that any decision had been
made on doing that, because | remember specifically that that request was made, |
think, somewhere around the 12th or 13th of March, to put the team together.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: These are people who had approached the campaign, like
Keith Kellogg and Gary Harrell. And | was asked to get NDAs executed on them
50 we could ask them to help if we needed the help and, at the same time, we
would have some protection there.

MR. SWALWELL: The next exhibit -- | believe would be exhibit 9 -- is a
March 17, 2016, email that Carter Page forwarded to you.

MS. TOENSING: | don't have an 8, unless | missed one.

MR. SWALWELL: Exhibit 8 would be the next one.

MR. CONAWAY: No, you said 9.

MR. SWALWELL: No, | corrected myself. | think it's 8.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 8
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: It's a March 17, 2016, email from Carter Page to you,
Bates stamped 9958.

Is that an email from Carter Page to you, Mr. Clovis?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, it is.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you recall that email?

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Sessions was there, and he and | sat together. | knew hardly anyone there at all.

And | met Paul when | literally walking -- getting ready to go, because | went
up to the restroom, and after using the restroom he introduced himself. And we
were standing up on that landing up there by the bathrooms, and we exchanged
cards.

MR. SWALWELL: So, Mr. Clovis, was this dinner at The Monocle after the
March 31st meeting or before?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, after.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: It was warm weather, so I'm guessing it was probably late
June, early July. And I'm not so sure -- it was probably before the convention
because this is July 19th and the convention was over on the 18th.

MR. SWALWELL: So Paul Erickson references in the email that he
mentioned at the Rohrabacher dinner his development of a back channel to the
Kremlin.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Where did he mention that at the dinner?

MR. CLOVIS: It was in a brief exchange, because we had, like | said,
when we exchanged -- he had given me some relationship that he had with lowa,
and he knew | was from lowa. And he had talked about the fact -- oh, he was
mostly talking about transition, because transition was a topic that | was very keen
on, because we had not done and the campaign had not done a tremendous
amount of preparation on transition. And | was very concerned because | had
been doing a lot of research on transition, | talked to a lot of people, and I knew

that we were way behind the power curve on being prepared for transition.

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February 2nd, 2016, he sends a new email. If we have that email, we'll mark this
as exhibit 2.
[Clovis Exhibit No. 2
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: And while we give it to you, its Bates stamped
DJTFP00009721.

So let's go back to the top of that page now, because we were referring to a
January 30th portion at the bottom of the page.

So, Mr. Clovis, you've read the top of the page of 9711 --

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: -- which remains exhibit 1. In that exchange, he says,
“It's now more clear than ever that the initiative we've been discussing can not only
fix a longstanding failed element of U.S. foreign policy." Do you see that part?

MR. CLOVIS: Uh-huh.

MR. SWALWELL: What initiative was Mr. Page referring to?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | think he was trying to suggest that --

MS. TOENSING: Let's just make the record clear. Are you speculating,
or are you --

MR. CLOVIS: I'm speculating.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you know?

MS. TOENSING: Do you want speculation?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know.

MR. SWALWELL: | just want your personal knowledge.

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know what initiative he was talking about.

MR. SWALWELL: But he does reference "we"?

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himself any views he had on Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell anybody after these first two meetings with
Mr. Page about Mr. Page and his views on Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't think we discussed the views on Russia. | think we
discussed the fact that he wanted to help the campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: And it's fair to say that after your first two meetings with
him and at least after this email he remained in the campaign's orbit; he wasn't
dismissed?

MR. CLOVIS: No, he was a contact, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: But you have to remember, we had hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of people daily that would contact the campaign. And so, you
know, he was just one of them.

MR. SWALWELL: How many of the hundreds and hundreds of people
who would daily contact the campaign were able to get in-person meetings with a
senior person like yourself and have your email address?

MR. CLOVIS: A handful.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. So he was on a shorter list of --

MR. CLOVIS: But email, | don't know how they do it. | have no idea how
they do it. But you can't imagine how many emails | got where people were
trolling us, you know, attacking us, death threats, | mean -- and how they got the
emails, | have no idea.

MR. SWALWELL: But Mr. Page was someone who got the email from

you?

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And then when Stephen Miller came on board, Steven had a great deal of
expertise in speechwriting, and, as | said, he took over the day-to-day
hand-holding of the candidate. So Stephen was really responsible for most of
that after March.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 16
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: I'm going to show you exhibit 16. It's an email from
Peter Smith to you.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. No, it's -- if | might correct you, it's to a lot of people.

MR. SWALWELL: It's hard to tell.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah, it's hard to say.

MR. SWALWELL: So this is a part of the production that you have given
us. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir. That's what was asked for.

MR. SWALWELL: Who is Peter Smith?

MR. CLOVIS: | have no idea who that is.

MR. SWALWELL: The subject line of the email is "WikiLeaks has a strong
case for Whistleblower Protection." {Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's what it says.

MR. SWALWELL: It also says that it's addressed to -- well, it's Peter Smith
sending it to himself, and it looks like somehow you received it. Is that right?

MS. TOENSING: | don't think | got what your -- my thing is about half the
size of what he has.

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know what that is.

MS. ROS-LEHTINEN: Oh, you just don't have that other side.

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MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. CONAWAY: Did you tell him to do that?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. CONAWAY: Did you know he was going to do that?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. CONAWAY: Any sense that he would've been there on official
business for the Trump campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No, he would not have -- | don't think he would've been
under any illusion he would represent the campaign.

MR. CONAWAY: Okay.

And then, with respect to the foreign policy advisory --

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. CONAWAY: | got corrected, that the Trump campaign created
several advisory boards?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. CONAWAY: What was your role in the foreign advisory policy?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, it's a great story. | get a call, | think it was on the 12th
of March. And | think we --

MR. CONAWAY: What year?

MR. CLOVIS: 2016. Itwas a -- we'd been at a debate, and we were on a
plane flying back either -- | can't remember where, New York or -- | think it was
New York. And then | was to catch a plane and | flew back to lowa. | was
actually at home in lowa after one of these trips, and it was relatively late in the
evening.

And | got a call from Jared -- we had been talking about a national advisory

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MR. SCHIFF: What trip were you referring to?

MR. CLOVIS: The trip to the Middle East.

MR. SCHIFF: And was it your understanding, then, from
Mr. Papadopoulos that he was in communication with the Russians about meeting
in the Middle East to make it even more off the record?

MR. CLOVIS: There's no -- | didn't see any connection over the trip that he
wanted to take with Walid Phares to the Middle East and Russia. |
didn't -- there -- | didn't see that connection.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, Mr. Papadopoulos, in his statement under oath to the
court in connection with his plea, referenced the Russian Ministry of Foreign
Affairs’ interest in meeting with representatives of the campaign if Mr. Trump could
not undertake those meetings.

And, according to Mr. Papadopoulos, when he asked whether that was the
interest of Mr. Trump and the campaign, the person you have identified as yourself
encouraged him to make the trip if it was feasible.

MR. CLOVIS: What I'm trying to explain is that the Russian contacts is not
the context of the trip that he wanted to make if feasible. Those are not
connected. What that document does not have is the fact that he is talking about
a Russia trip and he's talking about a Middle East trip. Those are two separate
things.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, he was referring here in his plea to a trip to meet with
Russian officials and says that you encouraged him to make the trip if it was
feasible. Are you testifying now that you did not encourage him to make a trip --

MR. CLOVIS: To Russia, no, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you encourage him to meet with Russian officials or

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MR. SWALWELL: You can give her another one.

MR. CONAWAY: Which one is this?

MR. SWALWELL: It's actually -- do you see that email, Mr. Clovis?

MR.-CLOVIS: I'm not sure which one you're talking about.

MR. SWALWELL: It's the subject line "New Wikileaks dump reveals
thousands of emails from Clinton campaign chair Podesta."

MS. TOENSING: What, what? It's a multiple page. Are you just
referring --

MR. CONAWAY: Just one page out of it, one of several.

MR. CLOVIS: Oh this one back here, so it's Rick DeLilo, is that who it is?

MR. SWALWELL: Yes. Do you recognize that name?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: And you see that it is a to [i ?

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: |s [Jan email you've ever used?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Next, | want to direct you to an email titled Trump's
Russia Adviser Speaks Out, Calls Accusations Complete Garbage. And that's
page 1 of 5.

MR. CLOVIS: I've got it.

MR. SWALWELL: So | will go through each of those. Are you familiar
with that email? _ | will mark that as Exhibit 19.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 19
was marked for identification.]

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

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MR. SWALWELL: And this appears to you to be an effort by Mr. Page to

change the messaging or juxtaposition of Viadimir Putin and ISIS?

MR.

on that.

MR.

CLOVIS: I don't remember the context of this, so | cannot comment

SWALWELL: In the second paragraph, he also references, "A key

advantage of a Trump Administration could be the improved relationship with

Russia." Did you see that part?

MR.

CLOVIS: Yes, sir, | did.

62

MR. SWALWELL: So, on March 21st, the team is announced by candidate

Trump during an editorial board meeting. You referenced that earlier. Were you

with Mr. Trump that day?

MR.
MR.
MR.

MR.

that right?

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: No.
SWALWELL: Did you speak with him by phone that day?
CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: Carter Page was announced to be on that team. Is

CLOVIS: If that's what it says.
SWALWELL: Is that your recollection?
CLOVIS: Yes.

SWALWELL: Before Mr. Trump made the announcement of that

team, did you ever speak in person with Mr. Trump or by phone with Mr. Trump

about Mr. Page?

MR.

MR.

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: To your knowledge, what did Mr. Trump know about

Mr. Page prior to him telling The Washington Post that he was on the team?

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MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell anyone in law enforcement, up until
November 8th, about the back channel that Mr. Erickson was expressing to you
with Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: I'm going to yield to Mr. Schiff.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Clovis, you testified earlier that when Mr. Papadopoulos
expressed interest in going to Russia that you encouraged him to do so if it was
feasible. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: To go as an individual if he wanted to, yes, he could.

MR. SCHIFF: But you used those words "if it was feasible"?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. It was in an email, | think, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: So when Mr. Papadopoulos in his plea refers to being told
by a campaign supervisor that he could go if it was feasible, he's referring to you?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | think we can draw that conclusion.

MR. SCHIFF: But Mr. Papadopoulos wasn't asking you about whether he
should go in his private capacity. He was asking you if he should go on behalf of
the --

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah --

MR. SCHIFF: -- campaign.

MR. CLOVIS: -- that's the context.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Clovis, let me finish my question.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir. I'm sorry.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Papadopoulos wasn't asking you whether he should go

in his personal capacity. He was asking if he should go as a part of the campaign

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MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever talk with Corey Lewandowsky about
Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: No. | don't remember that as -- because | just didn't -- no.
| don't think so.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Donald Trump Jr.? Did Mr. Papadopoulos
ever express to you a relationship with Mr. Donald Trump Jr.?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Papadopoulos ever express to you any
contacts that he had with candidate Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not atall. | probably would've remembered that.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you know if candidate Trump connected with
George Papadopoulos in the same way that you were trying to connect Carter
Page by phone with candidate Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, | don't.

MR. SWALWELL: On March 21st, 2016, Mr. Trump said of
Mr. Papadopoulos to The Washington Post, "He's an energy and oil consultant.
Excellent guy."

Do you remember Mr. Trump saying that?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't remember him saying that, but | remember
reading it.

MR. SWALWELL: Prior to Mr. Trump saying that, did you ever discuss
Mr. Papadopoulos with Mr. Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Who put Mr. Papadopoulos on that national security

team?

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MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Clovis, exhibit 2, do you recognize that?

MR. CLOVIS: My name is on it, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And you actually responded to it too. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | did.

MS. TOENSING: Can we just clear the record, because you just said, "My
name is on it, yes." Does that mean you recognize it, or does it come back into
your head?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't remember the email.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. But this was your email address. Is that
correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And, Mr. Clovis, just to set the context here, it's
February 7th, 2016. | don't recall the exact dates, but we're around now the time
period of the lowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: The 1st of February was the -- | think was the lowa caucus,
and the 8th of February was the New Hampshire primary.

MR. SWALWELL: So this is the day before the New Hampshire primary?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Safe to say this was probably one of the busier times
you had in the primary season?

MR. CLOVIS: Safe to say.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And Mr. Page sends an email to you at
9:29 p.m., on February 7, and you respond to him about 63 minutes later at 10:32
p.m. ts that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

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campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: When did he do this?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure. The June or July timeframe | think it was.

MR. SWALWELL: Was it in person, by phone, or by email?

MR. CLOVIS: | think it was probably by phone. There was probably an
email exchange in there. | think you'll find it in the documents that | gave you.

MR. SWALWELL: Was he calling from London when he talked to you
about --

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure.

The issue was that he could not represent the campaign. He could not
represent himself as a member of the campaign. And if he wanted to travel, we
could not tell him no, but he could not in any way, shape, or form, represent
himself as a member of the campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: If you felt so strongly about him not representing
himself as a member of the campaign, why did you not feel strong enough to
encourage his removal from the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: | didn't think that was my role, to remove him. | didn't have
that -- that was not my authority, to do that. And he was still -- you know, this
team was put together, and it was essentially there -- even though it was defunct,
we already had people that had gone to New York that were part of the providing
advice -- this is what I've been told -- providing advice to the candidate. And that
team was -- until they showed themselves to not be -- when they became liabilities
greater than what we were already dealing with, then that's when they were asked
to leave.

MR. SWALWELL: When you had this June or July what you believe to be

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MR. CLOVIS: I'm sure they did, but | didn't ever use her for that.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: | thought that was abusive.

MR. SWALWELL: And as we sit here today, do -- we have some of your
campaign email exchanges with various Trump campaign individuals, but we do
not have any personal email production from you. Would you be willing to turn
over to the --

MR. CLOVIS: That's not true.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. You've produced personal --

MR. CLOVIS: Six hundred pages of it.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. I'll check with our staff on that, and we can
follow up on that.

What personal email address -- and we can redact it if the record is ever
produced for this interview. What personal email address were you using at that
time?

MR. CLOVIS: iy.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you have any other personal email addresses?

MR. CLOVIS: Not that were used, no.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And when did you receive a Trump campaign
email address?

MR. CLOVIS: That day, | think, when -- that first day.

MR. SWALWELL: In August 2015?

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: Don't ask me what it was. | don't know.

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MR. CLOVIS: | did.

MR. SWALWELL: Why?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, we needed people, and he was one of the people
that -- we didn't have very many, as | said. I've said many times that we
were -- we already had 150 people that had signed letters and posted them in The
Washington Post and New York Times that were Never Trumpers, and they were
criticizing us because we had no depth on our foreign policy or national security
effort. George happened to be one of the eight people that | could pull up that
had some background in one of these areas that we could put him on the team.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever seek to verify Mr. Papadopoulos'
background?

MR. CLOVIS: Idid. | just -- | did as much as | could online --

HE Ore minute.

MR. CLOVIS: -- in the time period | had.

MR. SWALWELL: And can you just explain to the committee how
Mr. Papadopoulos, in your mind, as you're putting this team together, was put in
the same category of national security representatives as, for example, Lieutenant
General Keith Kellogg?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, we needed a team, and we didn't have very many.
And that -- he would've been the eighth person put on the team.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

| yield back.

MR. CONAWAY: We have no further questions at this time.

Fifteen minutes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

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Papadopoulos was making similar suggestions?

MR. CLOVIS: No, but | think, if you look, | think -- I'm not sure, but | think
Carter is on that email.

MR. SWALWELL: But as Chairman Conaway pointed out earlier, we can't
assume that Carter Page knew, right?

MR. CLOVIS: | can't assume that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: He also mentions that the leadership, including Putin, is
ready to meet with us and Mr. Trump should there be interest. Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: That's what it says.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever talk to you in person, Mr. Papadopoulos,
about arranging a meeting between Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell candidate Trump about this offer on
March 24th by Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Why not?

MR. CLOVIS: | didn't communicate with the candidate.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, you told us earlier that you had communicated a
lot with --

MR. CLOVIS: | did up until the middle of March, and then, after that, my
role changed, and | didn't communicate with him at all after that.

And most of my communications with the candidate were either in person
when we were doing debate prep or on the airplane or at events, to and from, or
through Corey Lewandowski or Hope Hicks.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you communicate in person with Mr. Lewandowski

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MR. CLOVIS: It was official, | think, the 25th of August, 2015, something
like that.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. What was your title when you were --

MR. CLOVIS: | was the -- at that time, was the senior policy adviser and
national co-chair of the campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: And who did you report to?

MR. CLOVIS: Corey Lewandowski, who was campaign manager.

MR. SWALWELL: And were you stationed in lowa, or were you in
Washington or New York?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | was -- | lived in lowa, but | commuted wherever they
needed me. So | would come to New York when | was needed in New York, or |
would come to Washington when | was needed here. And so | traveled
extensively, did the rallies. We spent a lot of time on the Trump airplane going to
rallies --

MR. SWALWELL: Who else --

MR. CLOVIS: -- and debates.

MR. SWALWELL: Let's just talk about 2015.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Who were the other senior officials that were in the
Trump orbit -- candidate Trump orbit at that time?

MR. CLOVIS: Michael Glassner, who was our political director; Hope
Hicks, who was the communications director; Dan Scavino, who handled social
media; George Gigicos, who was our event planner. | think that was
probably -- that was it. That was about the whole national team at that time.

MR. SWALWELL: Was General Flynn on the team? In --

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MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did anyone tell you during that time period who
was on the campaign or affiliated with the campaign or seeking to be a part of the
campaign that they had traveled to Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone other than those four individuals tell you
that they had traveled to a foreign land to meet with Russians?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

You mentioned earlier that you partially worked on the campaign's law
enforcement contacts and portfolio.

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And that's because you, yourself, have a
number of contacts in law enforcement.

MR. CLOVIS: | did, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And did those include any contacts in Federal
law enforcement?

MR. CLOVIS: No. These were all State and local guys. Most of them
were retired police officers, and that's about it.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did you ever tell anyone in law enforcement, up
until the end of the campaign, about the contacts that Mr. Page had with Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever tell anyone in law enforcement, up until
November 8th, about the contacts that Mr. Papadopoulos told you he had with

Russians?

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MR. CLOVIS: H-a-r-r-e-I-l.

MR. SWALWELL: Oh, you had mentioned him earlier.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. Major General Gary Harrell.

MR. SWALWELL: So Mr. Papadopoulos, in this email, references his
friend Joseph Mifsud. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

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MR. CLOVIS: No. No.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it something that would be unusual for you, to be
emailed about WikiLeaks?

MR. CLOVIS: | think this is unusual, the type of emails that | got a lot of.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever communicate throughout the campaign
with anyone at WikiLeaks?

Bre minute, sir.

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever communicate with Julian Assange
throughout the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you familiar with anyone on the campaign
communicating directly with WikiLeaks?

MR. CLOVIS: Not that I'm aware of.

MR. SWALWELL: | yield back.

| Do you have any questions?

Another 15 minutes.

MR. SWALWELL: Thanks.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 17
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: Exhibit 17 is a March 28, 2016, email from Carter Page
to you, Bates stamped 218 to 219.

MR. CLOVIS: | don't have it.

MR. SWALWELL: We're bringing it over.

HR believe we've already introduced that exhibit.

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MR. SWALWELL: Other than what Mr. Papadopoulos said in that
March 31st meeting, between March 31st and April 25th, did Mr. Papadopoulos
ever express to you in person, by phone, by text, an open invitation by Putin for
Mr. Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't have any artifacts in front of me. | don't know. |
can't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: On April 26, in another meeting with the professor,

Mr. Papadopoulos was told, according to the statement of facts, that the Russians
had obtained dirt on Hillary Clinton involving thousands of emails.

Do you recall receiving an email or any correspondence from
Mr. Papadopoulos about the professor and his claims to have dirt on Secretary
Clinton involving thousands of emails?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, | don't recall that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: At this point in the campaign, end of April, from the time
you started in August 2015 until the end of April, did anyone on the campaign or
affiliated with the campaign ever discuss with you dirt on Hillary Clinton?

MR. CLOVIS: No. It was never a topic that | would be part of.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you ever a part of any conversation with anyone
on the campaign, affiliated with the campaign, about Hillary Clinton's emails?

MR. CLOVIS: No, other than just the news reporting on it.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever hear the candidate talk about Hillary
Clinton's emails?

MR. CLOVIS: No, other than just in his normal discussion about, you
know, "lock her up" and that kind of thing.

MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone tell you about Mr. Papadopoulos’ claims

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to hand you a picture.

MR.
MR.

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: Sure.
SWALWELL: Mark it as exhibit 10.
[Clovis Exhibit No. 10
was marked for identification.]
CLOVIS: Cool.
SWALWELL: Where's Mr. Page?
CLOVIS: He is not there, as | said before.
SWALWELL: Do you know why?
CLOVIS: | think he was in Hawaii traveling.

SWALWELL: Did he tell you this, or did someone else tell you?

CLOVIS: No, he told me he was not going to be at the meeting.

SWALWELL: He was invited?
CLOVIS: Yes.

General Harrell is not there either.

MR.

SWALWELL: I'm going to mark exhibit 11.
[Clovis Exhibit No. 11

was marked for identification.]

64

MR. SWALWELL: It's a March 22nd, 2016, email from Carter Page to you,

subject line, "Expect a Call," Bates stamped 0092. And it is double-sided, so

you'll see -- | think it originates on the back page.

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: Oh.
SWALWELL: Do you recognize that email, Mr. Clovis?
CLOVIS: | do not.

SWALWELL: It is signed in your name. Is that right?

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MR. CLOVIS: And Stephen Miller.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell any of those individuals about Mr. Page
while you were on the plane?

MR. CLOVIS: They knew of Carter Page.

MR. SWALWELL: How did they know of Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: Because of his association and emails that he'd been
sending to Corey Lewandowsky and Michael Glassner.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Mr. Miller? Did you have knowledge of
Mr. Page sending emails or communicating with Mr. Miller?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know if he did or not.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

And you also mentioned Mr. Trump was in the conversation.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: How did Mr. Trump know of Mr. Page?

MR. CLOVIS: He didn't, not that I'm aware of. Page never came up in the
conversation. The conversation was about forming a national security team.

MR. SWALWELL: And you mentioned -- you said "they" knew of
Mr. Page. And Mr. Kushner was in that conversation as well?

MR. CLOVIS: No. Kushner was not in that conversation. | don't
remember Jared being on the plane. That particular --

MR. SWALWELL: So Jared followed up --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: -- after the plane. Got it.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you express Mr. Page's name to Jared,

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MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Is it your testimony today that you've never
seen it before, or it's just something you don't recognize?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recognize it.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

At the time of this email, January 30th, 2016, can you tell us whether that is
a date that's before or after that Trump Tower meeting you had?

MR. CLOVIS: It would be after, because I'm pretty sure it was January
when | met him.

MR. SWALWELL: He also addresses the email to Michael in addition to
yourself. Is that Michael Glassner?

MR. CLOVIS: It says it right here, Michael Glassner.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And at that point in time, January 2016, he's the
executive director of the Trump campaign. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. Political director.

MR. SWALWELL: And you reported to him?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: If there was -- and | know it's been described as -- you
know, it was a campaign in formation, but would you say that still in 2016,
January 2016, your only direct report is to Mr. Lewandowski?

MR. CLOVIS: That's correct.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did Mr. Glassner report to Mr. Lewandowski?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | suspect he did.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

MS. TOENSING: Well, let's clarify. Do you know for sure?

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MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: Yes.

SWALWELL: That's your email address?

CLOVIS: [Nonverbal response.]

SWALWELL: Yes?

CLOVIS: Yes.

SWALWELL: Do you recall this email?

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: What is Mr. Page referring to when he says, the

conversation -- the discussion that he and you had yesterday?

MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: | don't recall.
SWALWELL: Okay. So "yesterday," if we believe Mr. Page,

would've been February 9th. Is that right?

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: Yes.

SWALWELL: Is that the date of the New Hampshire primary?
CLOVIS: No, | think it was the 8th.

SWALWELL: The 8th.

CLOVIS: It would've been the day after.

SWALWELL: Okay.

February 12th, 2016, exhibit 5, Mr. Page emails you and Mr. Glassner,

subject line, "Trump, Putin, and the Possible End of the Second Cold War."

That is Bates stamped from the Trump campaign 9643. And | would ask --

MR. CLOVIS: Oh.

MR.

SWALWELL: -- to make that exhibit 5.
[Clovis Exhibit No. 5.

was marked for identification.]

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Kushner, Ivanka Trump, Corey Lewandowsky, Michael Glassner, and Stephen
Miller. And the subject is "Policy Team Agenda." It is Bates stamped DJ --

MS. TOENSING: This is exhibit 7?

MR. SWALWELL: Exhibit 7. It's 9899.

MR. CLOVIS: Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you recognize this email?

MR. CLOVIS: I've seen it in other parts of investigations, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: You reference a matrix of potential members for the
team. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And you said that you had a strong team coming
together in foreign policy and national security. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Was Page a part of that team at that point?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. At this -

MR. CLOVIS: | --|--

MR. SWALWELL: Yeah?

MR. CLOVIS: If | were a speculate, | was -- and | don't want to speculate,
but if | were to say that our Rolodex was thin, | would say yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And by my count, at this point we have 10
emails back and forth between you and Mr. Page. So it's fair to say, at least by
March 6th, 2016, you and Mr. Page are actively engaged back and forth by email.
Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's correct.

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MR. CLOVIS: | do not know if he called them or not.

MR. SWALWELL: Going back to George Papadopoulos’ statement of
facts, on March 24th, the statement of facts said that Mr. Papadopoulos again met
with the professor as well as a Russian woman who purportedly had ties with the
Russian Government. This was 3 days after he was announced by Mr. Trump to
be on the foreign policy team.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 13
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: Exhibit 13 is a March 24 email to you, along with other
members of the campaign. | want to show that to you. That's Bates stamped
10112.

You've seen this email before?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: It's an email from George Papadopoulos to you. Is that
tight?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: It also includes Carter Page, Keith Kellogg, Bert
Mizusawa, Chuck Kubic, Joe Schmitz, Walid Phares, and Michael Glassner. Is
that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: !s who [i

MR. CLOVIS: Gary Harrell.

MR. SWALWELL: Who is it?

MR. CLOVIS: Gary Harrell.

MR. SWALWELL: Can you spell the last name?

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this request from Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember any follow up from them. | did not
respond to her.

MR. SWALWELL: We talked a lot about your work with Mr. Trump from
August 2015 to March 2016. Butis it your testimony today that from March 2016
until election day -- well, can you tell us from March 2016 to election day if you
ever spoke directly by phone or in person with Mr. Trump about his views on
Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | did not speak to him at all.

MR. SWALWELL: The Peter Smith email that we referred to earlier
references an attachment. We do not have the attachment. And I'm hoping,
Mr. Clovis, you commit to provide to the committee the attachment to your emails
from Peter Smith.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah, if you need them, | will get them for you.

MS. TOENSING: Do you know if you have them?

MR. CLOVIS: I'd have to go back and look, but if they are on the emails,
the emails have not been altered in any way, shape or form. So if they are there,
they are there.

MR. SWALWELL: | will yield.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Clovis, when you were asked by my colleague who
high-ranking campaign officials were, you listed several. With respect to
Mr. Papadopoulos, though, in reporting to a high-ranking campaign official on a
foreign policy issue or Russia issue, do you have any insight into who that might
be particularly?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, | don't.

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Lewandowski. At that point, I'm not sure what role Jared had, but I'm sure he was
part of it. Manafort was involved by then, so I'm not exactly sure what the timeline
was. But! know Manafort came into the campaign in March, and took an active
role in March, and then Corey got fired, | think, June. So | can't -- | don't have
exact dates in my mind.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever meet Manafort?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | wouldn't know him if he walked in here.

MR. SWALWELL: Now we've seen in your production and printing the
copies right now emails that you or others sent i Sti (i‘CTMéSC;*@rS Who
was DJT?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't think there was ever any email sent to [i — Ir.
perhaps.

MR. SWALWELL: No I'm talking about J

MR. CLOVIS: No, I don't -- Mr. Trump did not have an email account, so
that wouldn't have been him. And | never sent him any emails ever.

MR. SWALWELL: So, no.

I show you | guess this will be Exhibit 18, the title is a forwarded email.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 18
was marked for identification.]

MS. TOENSING: We already have an Exhibit 18. Did they do it twice?
My apologize, it's we got two copies. This is 18.

MR. SWALWELL: It's an email titled this is from your production, Mr.
Clovis, "New Wikileaks dump reveals thousands of emails from Clinton campaign
chair Podesta."

MS. TOENSING: Can we have one?

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MR. SWALWELL: Is that something that you observed as an outsider or
something you witnessed one-on-one or in his presence?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | just watched him, saw how he interacted with people.
And | certainly watched him in the debates. That was my job, was to prepare him
for the debates.

MR. SWALWELL: And going back to, again, just your interactions, the
personal knowledge you had, you talked about views that you expressed and
others expressed to him about Russia.

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: But I'm asking you, what did he say as far as the views
he held about Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | want to make sure that I'm being very clear. | don't think
he ever expressed to me definitively what he thought about foreign policy on any
level.

MR. SWALWELL: I'm not asking what he definitively expressed. Just
what did he express at all?

MR. CLOVIS: Generally, he would accept what we said. He might ask a
question or two about it, but it was always general. | mean, there was no -- and |
really got the sense that he was guarded about it because | don't think he wanted
to share it with us, because I'm not sure that he was teady to take a position on it.

And | really felt like that was all the way up through, | would say, March of
‘16. That's pretty much where he held his -- he held his own counsel, | guess, is
the best way to say it.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever express definitive or indefinitive favorable

Positions about Russia in your presence?

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MR. SWALWELL: So that is an email from Hope Hicks on September
26th.

MR. CONAWAY: The document's on both pages. So how are we going —
to do that? We have page 1 of 1 on one side and page 1 of 5 on the other. So
how are we going to go do the exhibit piece?

HS. ust offer it as one exhibit and refer to different parts of it. |
think that would be the easiest.

MR. CONAWAY: Okay. Very good. So that the entire 1 through 5 will
be in that 1 of 17

MR. SWALWELL: Sure.

MR. CONAWAY: Is which number?

a «°.

MR. SWALWELL: And the subject is "Trump's Russia Adviser Speaks
Out, Calls Accusations Complete Garbage," The Washington Post. That's a
September 26, 2016, Mr. Clovis. It's from the Hope Hicks to you. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: It looks -- like, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And in the email, Ms. Hicks says, please make sure his
NDA was, in fact, countersigned. Send him a copy and please ask him to stop
talking. He is not being helpful, he has never spoken to or met Mr. Trump. Did
you talk to Mr. Page after that?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: What did you tell him?

MR. CLOVIS: | told him not to talk any more -- actually, I'm sorry, that is
incorrect. I'm sorry, | conflate a lot of these and | apologize for that.

| think this was Jason Miller is the person who had the responsibility of

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that he had been to Russia and he had boots-on-the-ground experience in Russia.

MR. SWALWELL: And it sounds like you didn't care about his contacts
with Russia.

MR. CLOVIS: | didn't care about his contacts.

MR. SWALWELL: | yield back.

HE That's time.

MR. CONAWAY: Fifteen minutes.

MR. SWALWELL: Who on the campaign, as you were assembling the
team, was asking you for foreign policy experts?

MR. CLOVIS: Jared Kushner.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. When did this begin?

MR. CLOVIS: | think | said it was -- occurred somewhere on the 12th or
13th of March, something like that.

MR. SWALWELL: And you mentioned a meeting on the plane. Is that
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, we were on the plane and started talking about the
foreign policy team. And that's where -- apparently, Senator Sessions had talked
to the candidate and said that he would chair it. And so we were trying to figure
out when we would pull the trigger on that and then go ahead and execute that.

MR. SWALWELL: Was Senator Sessions on the plane?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Who else was on the plane?

MR. CLOVIS: | think I've already answered that. It was Corey
Lewandowsky, myself, Michael Glassner, and the candidate talking about this.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you tell --

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MR. CLOVIS: Very. A driver and a nine-iron into South Dakota, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. I'm from northwest.

MR. CLOVIS: All right.

MR. SWALWELL: Kossuth County.

What is your professional background prior to joining the administration?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't want to use up all 45 minutes, but | was raised in
Kansas. | went to the United States Air Force Academy, 4 years, received a
bachelor of science degree in political science. Went off to pilot training, spent
25 years on Active Duty in the Air Force. | was a fighter pilot. | did a lot of other
things besides that, but that was predominantly what | did.

When | retired in 1996, | went into the private sector, was a businessman
for several years. Continued my education. | picked up an MBA while | was in
the service, and then while | was working in Alabama, | received a doctorate in
public administration.

Became a college professor. I've been a dean and department chair. And
I've also -- came back to Washington, D.C., to work in the -- | worked at Northrop
Grumman Corporation, worked as Booz Allen Hamilton. | was a fellow at the
Homeland Security Institute, working predominantly on homeland security and
national preparedness issues, a host of other things.

Then | went back to academic life in Sioux City. | was a tenured full
professor of economics at Morningside College in Sioux City, lowa.

And along the way, I'd, quite by accident, ended up with a radio talk show
that | did part-time and became known in the Republican Party and then came to
the attention of several candidates. | ran for office, myself. | ran unsuccessfully

in the Senate primary in 2014.

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MR. CLOVIS: | don't know. | -- no, | don't think it was New York.

MR. SWALWELL: Was it in Washington?

MR. CLOVIS: If it wasn't New York, then it probably was Washington.

MR. SWALWELL: Who else was with you when you met with him?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't think anyone was.

MR. SWALWELL: Who set up the meeting, he or you?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | was probably here in town, and if he was in town,
then that's probably -- it was a series of meetings that | had starting at 7:00 in the
morning and typically going until about 9 o'clock at night.

MR. SWALWELL: If you were in Washington, where would that likely have
been?

MR. CLOVIS: At the DoubleTree in Crystal City.

MR. SWALWELL: Why there?

MR. CLOVIS: Because that's where | was staying.

MR. SWALWELL: And your recollection is that it was two to three
meetings, you said, with Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: |-- yeah. I'm guessing that's about right, in person.

MR. SWALWELL: And did Mr. Papadopoulos have your email address?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, yes. Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And you say that -- it sounds like he emailed you a lot?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | think that -- you know, my view of George
Papadopoulos was that he was, particularly after | got a chance to size him up,
was that he was a man on the make. | felt like that he was a person who was
trying very hard to insinuate himself into the campaign. | think it was -- | thought

he was in it for himself, and | didn't think he was in it for the candidate. And so |

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MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

Did you ever discuss U.S. trade policy -- and I'm just talking about trade
policy now toward Russia.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: You did with Mr. Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And what was discussed?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, again, it was about -- you know, | didn't think that we
needed to be -- my position had always been that we were to have no dealings
with Russia without first consulting our NATO allies. Because it was important for
us, even though we had been very harsh on NATO in a lot of our rhetoric, the idea
was that we would not make any moves in that area without first getting our NATO
allies on board.

And that would be, from the trade perspective, we needed to compete with
Russia, particularly in the energy sector, because we had the possibility, with
energy dominance in this country, to displace some of Russia's hold on European
countries with the trade particularly in energy. And I've always been a trade hawk
on a lot of these issues, and | think that America ought to be first. And probably
one of the reasons | supported Mr. Trump.

MR. SWALWELL: So a new email, we'll mark it exhibit 2, is February 7th.
That's Bates stamped -- and we'll give that to you and counsel -- DJTFP00009721
and also 722.

MR. CLOVIS: Okay. So you just added the February 7th email to the

other chain. Okay.

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through the -- typically, made contact, | think, with Corey Lewandowsky, got
referred to me, and established a contact with the campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: George Papadopoulos recently pleaded guilty to a false
statement to the FBI. The plea agreement indicated that his contacts with the
campaign began as early as March 6, 2016, when he spoke with a senior
campaign official about the campaign and were informed that a principal foreign
policy focus of the campaign was an improved U.S. relationship with Russia.

Are you familiar with the statement the facts surrounding Mr. Papadopoulos'
plea?

MR. CLOVIS: | read his plea.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you the senior campaign official Mr. Papadopoulos
identified in the statement of facts?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Why do you say that?

MR. CLOVIS: I'mjust not. I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Could you be?

MR. CLOVIS: | could be, but I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Could you be a principal — could you be somebody that
told him a principal foreign policy focus of the campaign was an improved U.S.
relationship with Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember ever discussing an improved relationship
with Russia with George about anything.

MR. SWALWELL: Was March 6, 2016, your first conversation with
Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: If you sayso. | --

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MR. SWALWELL: But in January you didn't know if Mr. Page was going to
be on that team.

MR. CLOVIS: No. It was probably later. | honestly don't know why |
asked him to do it.

MR. SWALWELL: Where were you when you asked him to do it?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | don't know. | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever meet with Mr. Page for breakfast in
northern Virginia?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Often?

MR. CLOVIS: | would not say often, but occasionally.

MR. SWALWELL: How many times did you meet with Mr. Page outside of
Trump Tower one-on-one?

MR. CLOVIS: One-on-one? | would say no more than a half a dozen
times.

MR. SWALWELL: Who did you give the NDA to once Mr. Page signed it?

MR. CLOVIS: | sent it up to the headquarters. | think it was to, gosh,
Campbell Burr, | think was the name.

MR. SWALWELL: Is that B-u-r-r?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. It was one of the executive assistants that we had
up there.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you know where that NDA is today?

MR. CLOVIS: | have no clue.

MR. SWALWELL: Going to Mr. Page's trip to Moscow, you testified earlier

that you did not know he was going to Moscow in July 2016. Was that right?

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believe you met in person with Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm only speculating one or two times.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And were they both in New York?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

Is this the first email -- or are you aware of any emails -- and | understand
your testimony today is you don't recall this email, but are you aware of any emails
that predate January 30th between you and Carter Page, either on this campaign
email address or the personal email address?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: What were your discussions about Russia prior to this
email with Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: | think -- well, predominantly, it was interesting to try to get
his perspective on where he saw Russia. And | really attributed the difference in
views as almost generational, because | was about 20 years older and had been
through a lot more of the Cold War than he had. And | felt he was far
more -- because he'd been over there more recently -- I've never been there, but
more recently -- he was far more, | would say, favorably disposed to Russia.

MR. SWALWELL: In your first two meetings with him, he expressed to you
that he had been to Russia before?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he express to you that he had contacts in Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't -- that never registered.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did you --

MR. CLOVIS: | know he had contacts because he talked about his

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So | took care of all of the handling of people that might have some help or
support in the campaign. Because we dealt with not only people -- George's
background was energy, and he had been at the Hoover Institute. He was young,
didn't have a lot of experience, but at that point we needed people.

And Bert was a Harvard Law School graduate. Keith Kellogg had been the
commander of the 18th Airborne Corps. Gary Harrell had been commander of
the Delta Force. He, in fact, was the commander of the Black Hawk Down effort
there. Chuck Kubic had been -- he was a Middle East expert, was head of the
SeaBees for the Navy.

So these were, you know, reputable people. Walid Phares had a great
academic record, and he was a friend of the family, too, so that helped a lot. But
so that was -- Joe had been -- Joe Schmitz had been the DOD IG.

So those were -- tried to find credible people to put on this so that we could
get the press off our backs.

MR. CONAWAY: So, in your role -- but you, yourself, were not on the list?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. CONAWAY: What role did you play with the advisory board once it
was put together?

MR. CLOVIS: Just to facilitate it and then to facilitate that first meeting,
which | think occurred on the 31st of March at the Trump International Hotel.

MR. CONAWAY: Allright. And Sessions took over the chair at that point
in time?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm sorry? Yes.

MR. CONAWAY: Jeff Sessions was the chair at that point in time?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir, he did.

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Mr. Kushner, when he followed up?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | sent him the roster of the eight names, and Carter
Page was one of the names.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did anyone object to Mr. Page when you sent
that roster along?

MR. CLOVIS: [Nonverbal response.]

MR. SWALWELL: Is that a no?

MR. CLOVIS: No. Yes, it's ano.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 9
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: So March 17th, 2016 -- now this is exhibit 9 -- Mr. Page
emails you again, and the subject is, "2016.03.17 - President's Daily Briefing."
And that's Bates stamped 9962.

MR. CLOVIS: Okay.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you recognize this email, Mr. Clovis?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: It's an email on March 17th, 2016, from Carter Page to
your email address. |s that right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's correct.

MR. SWALWELL: And in the email, Mr. Page makes reference to, "While |
understand the logic of this week's 'Is this what we want for a President?’ video on
Instagram, please note that there might be some downside in juxtaposing the
images of the leader of Russia with an ISIS terrorist."

Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: That's what it says.

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MR. CLOVIS: He was not one of those, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Right. Okay. So he was in a much smaller list of
people who you had met in person and had your email address --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: -- and that you wrote back and forth?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Finally, in the last paragraph, he shares the details of a
meeting he'll be participating in with senior members of Russia's Gazprom. He
says, "The business-focused approach of this company and the unnecessary
negative impact of the U.S. Government's failed sanctions policy has severely
hindered the development of Gazprom in recent years with potential catastrophic
consequences for the people of Russia. They too are eagerly awaiting the
massive changes which Mr. Trump has readily positioned himself to soon bring.”

Do you see that sentence?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | do.

MR. SWALWELL: And | understand you don't recall reading this email, but
did he ever discuss with you his views on Gazprom or Russia's energy sector?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | think the sanctions were something that he had
asked -- or not asked about, but he had expressed his views on the sanctions, and
| was totally uncommitted on that.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And the sanctions we're talking about are the
Magnitsky Act sanctions of 2014?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know what they were. | just know they're Russian
sanctions.

MR. SWALWELL: And you understand today that Gazprom is one of

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person.

MR. SWALWELL: Is your recollection of Senator Sessions' interrupting
Mr. Papadopoulos from what you've seen Senator Sessions say in the press or
what others have recalled in the press, or is that your independent recollection?

MR. CLOVIS: This is my independent recollection. | do not remember
what George said. | just know that Senator Sessions interrupted him and then the
candidate interrupted him.

MR. SWALWELL: What did Mr. Trump say when he interrupted him?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall that. 1 do remember Senator Sessions talking
about the Logan Act. That was something that was mentioned.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you remember Senator Sessions specifically saying
the Logan Act?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, specifically the Logan Act. And that's why | remember
it, is because that was not something | was expecting. So, you know, it
was -- and, again, | don't know what the reference was because | couldn't fully
understand what George was saying.

MR. SWALWELL: Is there anything else you remember Senator Sessions
discussing?

MR. CLOVIS: Huh-uh, because they moved on to the next person, and
then the meeting was over. | mean, we'd eaten up all that time, and there was
virtually no time left, and they were up, that group was out. And a group of
businesspeople came in, and that was the next meeting.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you recall Mr. Trump saying yes or no?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Or is it you just don't recall what Mr. Trump said?

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election --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir. After the election --

MR. CONAWAY: -- through the inauguration, what did you do, if anything?

MR. CLOVIS: After the election, | was asked to come back, and | was a
policy director during the transition up until --

MR. CONAWAY: Is that an official title?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: Okay.

MR. CLOVIS: Policy director.

Then | was responsible for making sure that we had consistency with the
campaign promises for all -- we dealt with 46 agency action plans to go in the first
day, first 100 days, first 200 days, and it was my job to vet all of those and get
those ready, making sure they were consistent.

And then | was asked to lead the beachhead team into the Department of
Agriculture, and that's where I've been ever since.

MR. CONAWAY: So when did that start?

MR. CLOVIS: January 20th, Inauguration Day.

MR. CONAWAY: So was there an official transition team in the USDA
during the transition or just --

MR. CLOVIS: Well, there is, and they're called -- those are landing teams.

MR. CONAWAY: Right.

MR. CLOVIS: And those teams reported back to us, the policy directors,
on what they were learning. And this is how we developed our action plans to go
in.

MR. CONAWAY: And then, since January 20th, what's been your role?

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something nefarious and we would keep him in the fold, knowing the full
knowledge of what he was doing. And that is not an accurate representation of
the relationship at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, he was telling you that he had a relationship with
Putin's niece. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, he did. Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And he was telling you that he wanted Mr. Trump to
meet in Moscow with Mr. Putin. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Why would you want to keep an individual like that in
the fold?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, we had not gone full forward, we had not had our
meeting with the national advisory team. The issue there was | would -- you
know, | didn't advance this to anyone. And if you would check, you know, that
none of his suggestions were ever acted on, as faras | know. | certainly didn't
meet with any Russians. And | didn't recommend that anybody meet with
Russians, at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you believe that Mr. Papadopoulos’ interest in
connecting Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin aligned with the candidate's interests?

MR. CLOVIS: Not at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Why not?

MR. CLOVIS: Because | just didn't think that's where we were as a
campaign.

MR. SWALWELL: But you did acknowledge earlier that Donald Trump

was, as you put it, pimping the media about his relationship with Putin. Is that

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attaches some talking points that he has put together that again include Russia.
Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. | suppose.

MR. SWALWELL: But! don't want you to suppose. | want you to
just -- and | can direct you -- again, in the way that this was provided by the Trump
campaign, it's not easy to follow along, but you'll see, about six paragraphs down,
he references, "He was very much focused on containing Russia."

MR. CLOVIS: So what are you asking me?

MR. SWALWELL: Do you see the Russia reference there?

MR. CLOVIS: About "consistently antagonizing Russia with NATO's
expansionist policies"?

MR. SWALWELL: Yes.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

Did you ever ask Carter Page to sign an NDA?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: When was that?

MR. CLOVIS: It would've been early on, probably January, right after --

MR. SWALWELL: Who asked you to do that?

MR. CLOVIS: It was the policy of our campaign if we had people that were
going to be providing advice. It was just a cautionary issue for us.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you specifically asked, though, for Mr. Page, to
have him sign an NDA?

MR. CLOVIS: | was asked to have all the members of that team to sign

NDAs.

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right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: You referenced that you would provide
Mr. Papadopoulos with more thoughts later today. How did you update him with
more thoughts?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure | did.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it possible that you did?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know. | can't remember.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And if you did, could it have been in person?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know.

MR. SWALWELL: Could it have been by the phone?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, of course it could've been by the phone. | don't know.
| can't remember.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever text back and forth with
Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't remember ever texting George. | don't
remember that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: And just to be clear for the record, you never told him to
stand down on this?

MR. CLOVIS: No. Not at this point.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 14
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: Exhibit 14, March 27, 2016, you email the national

security team, and the subject line reads "PP on Foreign Policy." It's Bates

stamped 148 to 49.

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multiple times during that period from mid-June to mid-August?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm sure he corresponded with me about it.

MR. SCHIFF: So you do recall now him corresponding with you about --

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't recall, but I'm sure that he did.

MR. SCHIFF: And what makes you sure that he did?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, because | produced 600 pages of documents, and I've
also had this same interrogatory with several other agencies in the city. That's
why -- some of this conflating, so I'm having a struggle trying to separate exactly
what you're asking away from other places that I've had to talk about these things.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, I'm trying to understand the basis of your testimony.
So are you -- you say you're certain you did have these --

MR. CLOVIS: No, I'm not certain | did. I'm certain that you have already
presented me with evidence or emails that exchanged between us, and that's what
I'm acknowledging.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, what I'm asking you about, Mr. Clovis, is not
something in an email, it is in Mr. Papadopoulos' plea in representation to the
court.

MR. CLOVIS: Uh-huh.

MR. SCHIFF: You have testified that essentially beginning in mid-March,
you had little interaction with the foreign policy team --

MR. CLOVIS: After March, yes.

MR. SCHIFF: According to Mr. Papadopoulos, from mid-June through
mid-August, he made a number of attempts to pursue an off-the-record meeting
with members of President Putin's office and the MFA.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

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MR. CLOVIS: No, | -- it is hard for to me to answer that. | don't remember
that at all. That's my answer. | don't remember that at all.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, did anyone else on the campaign inform you that they
understood the Russians were in possession of Hillary Clinton's emails.

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Or that they had been informed by Russians or represent a
Russian Government that they had dirt on Hillary Clinton in the form of emails?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir. | don't remember that at all.

MR. SCHIFF: My colleague may have asked you this and | may have
missed it. On March 27th, 2016, when you had emailed Is
along with Keith Kellogg, Carter Page, Bert Mizusawa, Chuck Kubic, Joe Schmitz,
et cetera.

MR. CLOVIS: Uh-huh.

MR. SCHIFF: With the subject line the PP on foreign policy. Who was
—

MR. CLOVIS: Major General Gary Harrell.

MR. SCHIFF: And in response to the email, and we can pull up the
document if you need it. Thank you. This is a Bates stamped ending in 218 and
219. Another copy of that.

MR. CONAWAY: Can we have a copy of that?

Hr minute, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: One -- according to this document, you forwarded
Mr. Page's work to Corey Lewandowski and Michael Glassner stating, this is the
work done by Carter Page over the weekend based only DUT interview with NYT.

This is quite comprehensive, and | know it is too long to consume, but | wanted to

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MR.
MR.
MR.

SWALWELL: Did you tell Mr. Lewandowski?
CLOVIS: No. He was on the email.
SWALWELL: Okay. Did you ever discuss offline, off email, with

Mr. Lewandowski that this individual was offering to connect Mr. Putin and

Mr. Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: No. Corey's -- my role was to herd the cats. Corey had
plenty of other stuff to do.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever discuss with Mr. Glassner offline —

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: -- off email, Mr. Page's offer?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you discuss with anyone --

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: -- family members --

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: -- someone else in the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: February 9th, exhibit 3, you and Mr. Page emailed to

confirm a phone call. That's Bates stamped DJTFP00009772 to 9773.

MS.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 3
was marked for identification.]

TOENSING: Just for clarification for the record, this is a really

screwed up way of numbering these things, because the different pages now have

different numbers, because they're the thread. So it's just -- you might want to

just clear it up for your records, because they're the same ones, just threading with

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contract | signed. The compensation issues and all that were all part of it.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Is there anything about that NDA that you
believe precludes you from giving truthful or complete testimony today?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: So, in 2015, were you interacting with candidate
Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Where and how often?

MR. CLOVIS: Regularly and all over, New York or on the plane or at
debates or at events. | traveled extensively with the candidate at that time, not all
the time, because occasionally we'd have to go home and, you know, get fresh
laundry. And so it was a -- but generally | was either in New York or traveling with
the team or we would be down at Mar-a-Lago between events.

MR. SWALWELL: If you wanted to reach candidate Trump, how would
you -- if you wanted to talk to him on the phone, how would you contact him?

MR. CLOVIS: | would go through Corey Lewandowski.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did you have candidate Trump's cell phone
number?

MR. CLOVIS: It may be in my phone. | don't know. | just -- I've never
used it. | honestly don't know.

MR. SWALWELL: So if you wanted to talk to him by phone, you would call
or text Corey, and then Corey would arrange the phone call?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And if candidate Trump called you, would it

come up on your phone as, you know, a phone number or a number that you had

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Do you see that one?
[Clovis Exhibit No. 20
was marked for identification]

MR. CLOVIS: Okay, recommendation, okay, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And | would just refer you to page 3 of 4 in this exhibit
and the exchange between --

MR. CONAWAY: One second, it looks like we have three of four. Yep, all
tight, thank you.

MR. SWALWELL: The exchange between you and Ms. Trump on
February 28th, 2016. Do you see that part?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And that's your email, right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And you say to her, "As far as | know, we handled the
administration of NDAs through Michael and his staff.". Who was Michael?

MR. CLOVIS: Michael Glassner.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. How often did you interact with Ivanka Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: Just whenever she called or emailed.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever express to Ivanka Trump your knowledge
of Mr. Page's contacts or visits to Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever discuss with Ivanka Trump your
knowledge of Mr. Papadopoulos' foreign travel?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever interact with Jared Kushner?

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MR. CONAWAY: Let me ask a question, if | might. How are you putting
these guys together? Because you've got one dated February 7th at 9:29 --

MR. SWALWELL: So this is -

HR, They're different strands of -

MR. CONAWAY: -- another one is 8:32.

HEE Some of them are different strands of the same email, so we
wanted to look at different parts.

MR. CONAWAY: How would one be dated ahead of the other one?

MR. SWALWELL: Well, so this is how the Trump campaign produced
them to us, was in this form.

MS. TOENSING: Are they Bates stamped?

a -:.

MR. SWALWELL: They stack the emails on top of each other.

MR. CONAWAY: All right.

MR. SWALWELL: But I'm referring to the February 10th, 2016, portion
of this.

MR. CONAWAY: You said exhibit 4?

MR. SWALWELL: Yes, exhibit 4.

MR. CONAWAY: Without objection.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 4
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: And, Mr. Clovis, I'm only asking about the top portion of
this.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Again, is that Mr. Page emailing you?

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MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL:  -- 2015, was he on the team?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. How about Jared Kushner?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did anyone report to you? And I'm just talking
about 2015 for now.

MR. CLOVIS: No. Pretty flat organization.

MR. SWALWELL: To join the team, did you have to sign an NDA,
nondisclosure agreement?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | did.

MR. SWALWELL: When did you sign that?

MR. CLOVIS: It was that morning, the first day of work.

MR. SWALWELL: In August 2015?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Where did you sign it?

MR. CLOVIS: Ata hotel in Dubuque, lowa.

MR. SWALWELL: Who asked you to sign that?

MR. CLOVIS: Chuck Laudner.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. You know, the Hotel Julian in Dubuque, lowa, is
a nice --

MR. CLOVIS: This was some event center out on the river, so --

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

Chuck Laudner, why did he ask you to sign the --

MR. CLOVIS: It was just -- it was standard. It was part of the -- | had a

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MR. CONAWAY: Okay.

Were other people added to the national security board after that --

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: -- eight?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: In terms of George Papadopoulos, what, if anything, can
you tell us his role with the campaign was through the election?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, one, he didn't have a role. | mean, he was -- that
advisory committee essentially became moot after that meeting, because we had
the press come in, you know, the Washington Post people came in after that
meeting and had a one-on-one interview with the candidate. And | had gone -- |
left, | didn't stay for that interview. So | don't know what transpired in that
interview other than what | read in the paper.

As far as George's -- that committee had virtually no role or input into the

campaign after that meeting.

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encouraged -- | did not encourage George to ever make a trip to Russia. The
only connection with Walid Phares was the fact that they wanted to go -- they were
talking about going to the Middle East and that's -- | said if it's feasible, then go.

MR. SCHIFF: Was there a discussion with Mr. Papadopoulos, or
Mr. Phares, about arranging a meeting or discussion between candidate Trump
and President Sisi?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall any of that. | was not part of that. You have
to remember that after March, my role as a foreign policy person was greatly
diminished. In fact, | didn't advise on any policy after that. | had no interaction
with the candidate directly on any of these issues. And my role had evolved and |
changed -- my portfolio changed dramatically after March.

MR. SCHIFF: According to Mr. Papadopoulos, he was having repeated
discussions with you --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SCHIFF: -- from mid-June through mid-August. Was he having
frequent conversations with you from mid-June to mid-August on any subject?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, the issue was that George and others that were part of
that team, some like Keith Kellogg and Bert Mizusawa had occasion to go to New
York and were part of the foreign policy team in New York, and my job was really
to keep people on a tether, because we had enough liability issues with the press
as it was, and we didn't need anybody going outside of that.

MR. SCHIFF: My question, Mr. Clovis, was, Mr. Papadopoulos has
represented to the court that between mid-June and mid-August, he pursued an
off-the-record meeting between campaign representatives and members of

President Putin's office and the MFA multiple times. Did he pursue that with you,

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MR. CLOVIS: | don't know. I don't know if he did or not.

MR. SWALWELL: Would you agree that, at this time, Mr. Page is on the
campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. But he's certainly emailing with a senior
member of the campaign, yourself, and the political director, Mr. Glassner.

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: He starts the email, he says, "Following up on our
discussions about Russia earlier this month." Do you see that part?

MR. CLOVIS: Which one?

MR. SWALWELL: The January 30 email.

MR. CLOVIS: Yep. Go ahead.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you see that part?

MS. TOENSING: Could you say if it's on page 1 or 2?

MR. CLOVIS: No, it's first page, "Following up on our discussions about
Russia." There we go.

Go ahead.

MR. SWALWELL: What is he referring to, "Following up on our
discussions," "our" implying that it was a discussion that you and Michael were a
part of?

MR. CLOVIS: | think it was between Carter Page and me, because when |
was in New York, we had met and talked.

MR. SWALWELL: And this is that first meeting you're talking about?

MR. CLOVIS: No, it was subsequent.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. How many times before January 30th do you

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MR. CLOVIS: No, | think just to pimp the media on Putin.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever share with him your strong views asa
Cold War warrior, as you just --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: -- mentioned? And what were his thoughts when you
would express your strong views about containment?

MR. CLOVIS: He never pushed back, but he also, | think, would
acknowledge what | had to say. But he never pushed back. And he never really
commented on it either, not to my recollection.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you ever aware of anyone on the senior team,
from Corey to you or Hope Hicks and others, as being assigned to deal with
particular countries or foreign policy issues of particular countries?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir. The policy shop was one-deep and it was me.

MR. SWALWELL: Who was Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: Carter Page was a person that approached the campaign.
And | met him in New York on the fifth floor of Trump Tower.

MR. SWALWELL: When was that?

MR. CLOVIS: I'mnotsure. It was 2016.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. What was on the fifth floor?

MR. CLOVIS: That was the -- it was the old warehouse where they kept all
of the "Apprentice" props. It was really stark. | mean, they had some -- it was
mostly storage area. They had some offices that had been makeshift, just
2-by-4s and drywall. And all of our furniture were folding tables and chairs. And
it was pretty austere.

MR. SWALWELL: Can you recall if it was --

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MR. SWALWELL: Ms. Ernst?

MR. CLOVIS: Ms. Ernst won the primary.

| was drafted by the party then to run for one of the constitutional Offices,
State treasurer. I'm one of the few lowans to lose two elections in 4 months and
still gain political traction.

And so, when the 2015 cycle came around, | was a very popular date with a
lot of the Presidential candidates and ended up with -- when candidate Trump
asked me to join the team, | was very happy to do so.

MR. SWALWELL: When you were in the Air Force, what countries were
you posted at abroad?

MR. CLOVIS: Bahrain was my only -- oh, well, and Iceland. | was in
Iceland in 1979 and '80, and then | was in Bahrain 1992 to 1994.

MR. SWALWELL: And who appointed you to the Air Force Academy?

MR. CLOVIS: It was Garner Shriver, Fourth District of Kansas. But | had
received an appointment to West Point from Congressman Bob Dole. That's how
far back it goes.

MR. SWALWELL: Now, did someone introduce you to the campaign, or
did they -- did the campaign approach you, or did you approach them? How did
that happen?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, the story is that in 2014 we were at a fundraising
event for one of our Congressmen from lowa, and Mr. Trump was the guest
speaker, the keynote speaker. We had a chance to get to know each other briefly
there.

And then about a year later | was asked by the Republican Party at

Pottawattamie County, Council Bluffs area, to come down and introduce him at a

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MR. SWALWELL: During the campaign, did you ever receive information
about Hillary Clinton or any other individuals related to the Democratic Party and
Clinton's political campaign from an unidentified source?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you ever approached during the campaign by any
individual claiming to have information about Hillary Clinton or any entities related
to the Democratic party and the Clinton's political campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall that, no.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever interact with any foreign nationalist during
the course of the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, | did.

MR. SWALWELL: And why did you do that?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | had the opportunity to meet with several
representatives of embassies in Washington, that wanted to meet to confer about
the campaign. And so it was in the course of my duties at the time.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever meet with any Russian foreign nationals?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever meet with any foreign nationals who
discussed Russia with you?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of anyone on the campaign or related to
the campaign who received information from Russia or an agent of the Russian
Government about Hillary Clinton or any other individuals related to the
Democratic party in Clinton's political campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

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MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Klein reached out directly to you?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And if | understand it right, he mentioned an interest or
a stake he had in antiballistic missile defense, and he knew a rabbi in Russia who
could be a part of that.

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. | would say: Break paragraph, | knowa rabbi. So
| never saw the connection between antiballistic missile defense and knowing a
rabbi.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you know why he would reach out to you with
respect to --

MR. CLOVIS: | have no clue, other than the fact that | think he was just
trying to be helpful. He was very aggressive in, you know, still trying to reach to
get us to pay attention to issues that were going on in Huntsville, Alabama, and in
the ballistic missile defense office and those kind of things.

So | think he had a financial stake in new technology, is what | think it was.
And he wanted to make sure that he was in on the ground floor with the new
Trump administration if we happened to win.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever discuss a financial stake in any business in
Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not that | -- no.

MR. SWALWELL: So, other than -- and | should also include now
Mr. Erickson, because Mr. Erickson's email references Russia. So, other than
Mr. Erickson, Mr. Klein, Mr. Papadopoulos, and Mr. Page, did anyone contact you
from your time August 2015 until the end of the campaign, about contacts that they

had in Russia?

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European Union Parliament, a United States Senate staffer, a member of the
European Parliament from Hungary, and myself.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you interact one-on-one with Mr. Page?

MR. CLOVIS: Only in the fact that | -- | had coffee with him between
events. That was the interaction there.

MR. SWALWELL: What did you discuss?

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, just the convention, what was going on. | was glad it
was the last day.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he talk at all about any contacts he had with
Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir, not at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he mention his trip to Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not that | recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you see the Russian Ambassador at the
Republican convention?

MR. CLOVIS: | wouldn't have known him if he walked up to me. No.

MR. SWALWELL: When was the last time you talked to Carter Page?

MR. CLOVIS: I don't recall. Before the election, I'm sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he contact you -- did you talk to him at all after the
Republican National Convention? By phone, email, in person?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. I'm sure | did.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Anything you can recall?

MR. CLOVIS: No. No, sir. I'm sorry.

MR. SWALWELL: Who's George Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: He was a person that approached the campaign, again,

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those sanctioned entities. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you know that at the time?

MR. CLOVIS: No. I'm not even sure | know it now, but I'll take your word
for it.

MR. SWALWELL: You responded to that January 30th email the same
day. You said, "Carter, thanks. | will be in touch next week when the dust
settles. Sam."

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. So, via the nature of you responding, we can
assume that you did read the email and --

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: You just don't recall it today?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

What dust were you waiting for to settle?

MR. CLOVIS: The campaign. It was just constant. | mean, it's -- I'ma
very nice guy most of the time, and I try to be polite to people. And, again, we
had a lot of people that would solicit input or ideas from the campaign, and it was
usually my job to make sure that we were nice, because not everybody in the
campaign was nice.

MR. SWALWELL: Now, you don't respond and tell him to cease efforts to
connect high-level contacts or to make a direct meeting in Moscow between
Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: He was not part of the campaign.

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MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Kushner have a portfolio in handling interactions
with foreign diplomats or foreign parties?

MR. CLOVIS: It was my understanding that he did.

MR. SCHIFF: And he was one of the high-ranking campaign officials that
you mentioned earlier that might have been -- might have met that description.

MR. CLOVIS: Might have been is a good word, yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: What was Mr. Glassner's role as you understood on the
campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: He was our political director and he -- he essentially
handled the mechanics of the campaign and that was generally from the start. |
mean, my interactions with Michael were few, but whenever | would go -- he
traveled with us, but his interactions were to run the State staffs, to coordinate with
RNC, to work on facilitating donors, the mechanics of the campaign more than

anything else. | mean the no-kidding bloody-knuckle stuff.

Hr minute, Mr. Schiff.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Chairman, we yield back.
MR. CONAWAY: All right.

Mr. Clovis, thank you very much for your interview today. We appreciate it.
With that, we're adjourned.

MR. CLOVIS: Thank you.

(Whereupon, at 3:05 p.m., the interview was concluded.]

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MR. SWALWELL: In addition to the Trump campaign email exchanges,
would you also use the EE email to --

MR. CLOVIS: Occasionally.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And what personal cell phones were you using
at the time?

MR. CLOVIS: | have one cell phone.

MR. SWALWELL: Just one. Okay. And have you produced to the
committee any records with respect to phone calls or text messages?

MR. CLOVIS: No. Never been asked.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And if you were asked, you would cooperate
with that?

MR. CLOVIS: Sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you using any other messaging devices in 2015
or even 2016? And I'll just give you examples. WhatsApp?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. How about Signal?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Telegram?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Any other messaging devices --

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: -- besides a text messaging service?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

How would you characterize candidate Trump's view of U.S. policy towards

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MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: A Gmail account reaching out apparently on behalf of
Sputnik International News. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: It looks that way, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And that's to your email address?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Who do you understand Sputnik news to be?

MR. CLOVIS: | have no idea who that is.

MR. SWALWELL: She says she's a reporter with Sputnik and reaching out
as foreign policy adviser to Mr. Trump, and she asks about Mr. Trump's outreach
to Russia. Is that correct?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm curious specifically about Mr. Trump's statements about
Crimea this weekend, acknowledging the 2014 referendum where the people
voted to be part of Russia, not Ukraine. And then this is the questions she asks?

MR. SWALWELL: Right. She asks about his outreach to Russia, and
also, why Mr. Trump's unafraid to have the media portray him as pro Russian?
Do you see that part of the exchange?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, I do.

MR. SWALWELL: Is that how you understood Mr. Trump's views to be
that he was unafraid for the media to portray him as pro Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: | think that's an accurate statement.

MR. SWALWELL: And you forwarded that email on just a short while later
to jmiller and blanza. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, Jason Miller and Bryan Lanza.

MR. SWALWELL: And was there any followup with those individuals about

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MR. SWALWELL: So, even during this very busy time, Mr. Page was at
least important enough to get a response within about an hour from you. Is that
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Uh-huh.

MR. SWALWELL: Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: | responded to him, yes.

MR. SWALWELL: In the email, Mr. Page says, "As | have alluded to
before, there is no question that a Trump visit to Moscow and related meetings
with Putin would prove to be the most important campaign event in the history of
U.S. politics.”

Do you see that part of the email?

MR. CLOVIS: | do.

MR. SWALWELL: So this is the second time now that Mr. Page in the last
8 days is bringing up a meeting between Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin. Is that tight?

MR. CLOVIS: Uh-huh.

MR. SWALWELL: Yes?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And | only say that just for the transcriber.

MR. CLOVIS: I'm fine.

HR. Swalwell, 5 minutes, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Thanks.

You replied to Mr. Page, as | said, about an hour later, "Tuesday looks like
@ good day to talk. Everyone here will be turning out votes. Give me some
windows for the calls."

And when you say "turning out votes," are you referring to the New

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MR. SWALWELL: Post-inauguration.

MR. CLOVIS: Saturday, | would've been at the Old Executive Office
Building at a meeting.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

According to the statement of facts, on January 27th, George
Papadopoulos was approached by the FBI. Were you aware that day or within
days of Mr. Papadopoulos being approached by the FBI that they had contacted
him?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not at all.

HR C's time, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did anyone tell you -- oh, sorry.

l yield back.

MR. CONAWAY: Were you aware, Papadopoulos' trip, did the campaign
reimburse him for his expenses on those trips?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not aware of any arrangement that he -- financial
arrangement he had with the campaign at all.

MR. CONAWAY: Thank you.

Fifteen minutes.

MR. SWALWELL: When was the first time that you learned that
Mr. Papadopoulos had been talked to by the FBI?

MR. CLOVIS: When | saw the report on the news.

MR. SWALWELL: | want to introduce exhibit 14. It's a -

MR. CONAWAY: Fifteen.

MR. SWALWELL: Fifteen -- July 19th, 2016, email from Paul Erickson to

you.

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MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: How would you normally do that?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, usually, through phone or email.

MR. SWALWELL: And did you ever discuss, through the course of the
campaign with Mr. Kushner, Mr. Papadopoulos’ conversations about Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: How about his foreign travel to London and Italy?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever mention to Mr. Kushner anything about
Mr. Page's contacts with Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever mention to Mr. Kushner anything about
Mr. Page's trip to Moscow?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: AND finally, exhibit 20, subject line, "Russian media
request on Trump's Crimea comments."

MR. CONAWAY: 21?

[Clovis Exhibit No. 21
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: Yes, 21. Page 1 of 2, subject line, "Russian media
request on Trump's Crimea comments."

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you see that?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And it's a Leandra Bernstein.

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MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall, no, sir, | don't. And I've been asked this
several times, and | just simply cannot reconstruct that.

MR. SWALWELL: Was Russia discussed by anyone other than
Mr. Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't remember that at all, no. | don't remember that as
even being brought up.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Trump ever discuss Russia in the meeting?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not that I recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Trump ever discuss Ukraine in the meeting?

MR. CLOVIS: Not that I recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Walid Phares, you said that he was a friend of the
family. What did you mean by that?

MR. CLOVIS: | think that his -- well, the way he was introduced to me was
through Ivanka and Jared, that they were the ones that suggested Walid Phares,
Dr. Phares, be part of this team, because they knew him. And then when | had
made contact with Walid, he reinforced that, that he was friends with Ivanka and
Jared.

MR. SWALWELL: April 25th, 2016, a couple weeks after,

Mr. Papadopoulos, according to his statement of facts, emailed a senior campaign
adviser and said there was an open invitation by Putin from Mr. Trump to meet
when he is ready.

Are you the senior campaign adviser referred to in this statement of facts?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Could you be?

MR. CLOVIS: | certainly could be, but I'm not sure.

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Russia and what it should be?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, it was -- I think it's hard to characterize it.

MR. SWALWELL: Well, | guess I'd ask, based on your interaction with
him, what did you understand it to be?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | think he was really very guarded in his views. | think
we -- | had and -- | had a very clear picture of what I thought our position ought to
be, and | articulated that to the candidate when he would ask.

We never really got into any heavy discussions on foreign policy. | think it
made him uncomfortable. It was really up to me, as the policy person, to really
take a -- you know, to try to steer that ship as best we could.

And my view was a classic view as a Cold War warrior, was to contain
Russia, to contain China and Iran, to deal with the rogue states in a direct manner,
a position of strength, which we felt that we needed at least a couple of years to
develop because we were behind the power curve in our military readiness. And
then the separate piece was how do you deal with nonstate actors.

So that was articulated. | think he absorbed that. | am not sure what his
position was on any of that.

MR. SWALWELL: So, going back to 2014 when you first met him --

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. SWALWELL: And it was in Sioux City? Is that where you first met?

MR. CLOVIS: No. It was in West Des Moines, lowa.

MR. SWALWELL: West Des Moines. When you first met him in West
Des Moines and you said you had a pretty long interaction with him, did he ever --

MR. CLOVIS: Several short interactions, not long interaction.

MR. SWALWELL: -- did he ever express any views in that first meeting

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conversation is what I'm saying. | just don't recall it.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Papadopoulos, to your knowledge, have a
relationship with Stephen Miller?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: To your knowledge, did Mr. Papadopoulos organize any
meetings with foreign leaders, such as President Sisi?

MR. CLOVIS: No. | wouldn't know about that.

MR. SWALWELL: When was the last time you talked to George
Papadopoulos?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Was it after August? Have you talked to him since
August?

MR. CLOVIS: I don't recall. | don't think so.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you go to the election night party in New York?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Where were you on election night?

MR. CLOVIS: In my home in lowa.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you go to the inauguration?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

HS. Swaiwell, 1 minute, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Thanks.

On January 27 of this year, where were you?

MR. CLOVIS: January 27th of this year?

MR. SWALWELL: Yeah. Where would you have been?

MR. CLOVIS: So that would've been on Saturday --

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So, Paul, that's how -- he used that as an entree to me to talk to me about
whatever it was. Like | said, it was a brief exchange, probably not more than
3 minutes, and it was just while we were standing on the landing. And then | went
out and got in my Uber and went home.

MR. SWALWELL: Was the back channel to the Kremlin mentioned among
the dinner party guests?

MR. CLOVIS: The discussion at the dinner was about a more direct
engagement with Russia. And it was, you know, even to the point of -- and | don't
know if you've talked to Congressman Rohrabacher about this, but, you know, |
don't want to misstate his position, but, you know, | think that there are certain
Members of the House that would, you know, see a more direct engagement with
Russia and more of an alliance with Russia in particularly dealing with terrorism in
the Middle East.

And | think that was kind of the gist of it. It made me very uncomfortable
because | didn't -- it certainly wasn't my position, and it certainly wasn't Senator
Sessions’ position on our views of Russia. And | think we remained mute the
whole time we were there. And then when we got up and left -- we didn't
comment, didn't speak, other than just to leave.

MR. SWALWELL: What were you told the purpose of the dinner was going
to be?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | thought it was a discussion on foreign policy. | was
interested. | mean, you know -- and | was, you know, a policy guy, and so | was
going there. And Senator Sessions said he was going to be there, and | said,
okay, then it's safe for me to be there. And | think we were both surprised at the

topic and how it evolved.

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MR. CLOVIS: If his name was on it, it's in that stack.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, regardless of whether his name is on it, did you
receive any materials from Mr. Papadopoulos from the Russian Ministry of Foreign
Affairs?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Isn't that something you would recall if --

MR. CLOVIS: | would recall that, and | don't recall it.

MR. SCHIFF: Is it also the case that you don't recall producing that for the
committee?

MR. CLOVIS: If George Papadopoulos' name was on it and it was in my
private email, | generated everything that has his name on it.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, | don't know whether it would be in your private email
or not, but --

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall every single page of the 600 pages that |

produced.

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MR. SWALWELL: Well, he's on a team that you arranged. Isn't it
something that would at least concern you, that he'd be traveling over to Russia in
the peak of the campaign, and Russia's been accused of interfering in the
campaign at that point?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | didn't know that they had been accused of interfering
at that point.

MR. SWALWELL: In June of 2016, Mr. Page -- actually, let me back up.

In June of 2016, CNN and Politico reported --

Hone minute.

MR. SWALWELL: -- that Russia had hacked Democratic emails. Do you
remember that reporting?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever meet with Mr. Page at the Capitol Hill
Club?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you know what the Capitol Hill Club is?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, !do. | know where it is.

MR. SWALWELL: Have you seen Attorney General Sessions’ testimony
about attending a meeting in June of 2016 at the Capitol Hill Club?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | have not.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever attend any meetings at the Capitol Hill
Club with Attorney General Sessions in June 2016?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: I'll yield back.

MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Clovis, just to clarify a couple points.

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MR. SWALWELL: Well, I'm asking you.

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know.

MR. SWALWELL: Was it around that time period?

MR. CLOVIS: Again, | have no way of -- | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Where did you first see Mr. Papadopoulos in
person?

MR. CLOVIS: I don't remember. [I'm not exactly sure. I'm sorry. |
just -- | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Have you ever seen Mr. Papadopoulos in person?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. How many times?

MR. CLOVIS: I'd say maybe twice. Three times, maybe.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did you see him before the March 31st meeting
in person?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall, but | would guess that maybe | did. | honestly
don't know. | can't remember.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. You hada pretty clear memory of meeting -

MR. CLOVIS: Look --

MR. SWALWELL: -- Mr. Page on the fifth floor of Trump Tower.

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, ido. 1 don't remember meeting George in person.
You asked me specifically. | do not specifically recall when | met George
Papadopoulos.

MR. SWALWELL: Where did you meet him when you met him in person?

MR. CLOVIS: | am not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Was it in New York?

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team that you had no prior knowledge of?

MR. CLOVIS: That's hard to say. | worked 16 to 20 hours a day, and |
never had a day off. So it's hard for me to recollect all the circumstances --

MR. SWALWELL: Sure.

MR. CLOVIS: -- because we met a lot of people.

MR. SWALWELL: Now, in an email dated December 31st, 2015, Mr. Page
emailed Edward Cox. The subject was "Trump, Putin, and the Possible End of
the Second Cold War."

I'm going to go through the email in a second, but do you know who Ed Cox
is?

MR. CLOVIS: Only by the news.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Had you met him at this point?

MR. CLOVIS: Never. | still haven't met him.

MR. SWALWELL: And who is Ed Cox?

MR. CLOVIS: Well, | honestly don't know who he is. Isn't he the
son-in-law of Nixon or somebody like that? | don't -- that's how | know him.

MR. SWALWELL: What did you understand his relationship to the Trump
campaign to be?

MR. CLOVIS: | didn't know he had a relationship.

MR. SWALWELL: The email goes on to describe Page's hope for
improved U.S.-Russia relations under a Trump administration.

Cox replied and added Corey Lewandowski. He said, "Corey, Carter is a
former Merrill Lynch investment banker and a Russia expert with business
experience in Russia. He's interested in working with the Trump campaign and

has an article in Global Policy Journal entitled "Trump, Putin, and the Possible End

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MR

MR
morning.

MR

. CLOVIS: Okay.
[Clovis Exhibit No. 15
was marked for identification. ]
. SWALWELL: This is from the production that we discovered this

. CONAWAY: Off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

MR.
MR.
MR.

Erickson?

MR.

Monocle.

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

SWALWELL: Did you get a chance to read this email?
CLOVIS: Yes.
SWALWELL: Okay. Paul Erickson to Sam Clovis. Who's Paul

CLOVIS: He's a person that | met at a dinner one night at The

SWALWELL: When did you meet him?
CLOVIS: | said at a dinner one night at the --
SWALWELL: No, when.

CLOVIS: When? I'm not sure the exact date.
SWALWELL: Okay. Was it in 2016?
CLOVIS: Yes, it was.

SWALWELL: What does he do?

CLOVIS: I'm not sure what he does.
SWALWELL: But you met just him?

CLOVIS: No. | was ata dinner, and he introduced himself to me at

the dinner.

MR

. SWALWELL: And it looks like from this email that he was given your

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businesses, what he did. Because we wanted to know what he was doing.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever express -- or did you ever express to him in
these in-person meetings your counter views on Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. | told him very clearly what | thought.

MR. SWALWELL: He goes on to say in the email -- I'll refer you back to
exhibit 1 -- "Through my discussions with these high level contacts, it is their belief
that a direct meeting in Moscow between Mr Trump and President Putin could be
arranged."

Do you see that part of the email?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever express in those first two meetings contacts
that he had that could arrange a meeting with Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Is that something that you would recall, though? Do
you think it would jump out --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: -- if a person you just met is saying he can connect your
candidate and Mr. Putin?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Was anyone else present when you and Mr. Page
discussed in person his views on Russia --

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: -- the first two times?

Did you ever give any guidance in these first two meetings to Mr. Page

about, you know, to cease communications with any Russians or to keep to

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MR. SWALWELL: Did you read that email?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you recall that email?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: It is from Carter Page to your email address. Is that
right?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: February 17th, 2016?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: In the email, he twice references Russia. Is that
correct?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: But he also references that you can contact him on a
UAE number that he has. Did you see that part?

MR. CLOVIS: No, | don't --

MR. SWALWELL: At the very end, he says, "Feel free to call me on my
UAE mobile number."

MR. CLOVIS: Oh, okay. Yeah. :

MR. SWALWELL: Do you know why he had a UAE cell phone?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you call him on that phone number?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 7
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: Going to exhibit 7, on March 6, 2016, you email Jared

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a telephone conversation with Mr. Papadopoulos about going to Russia, did he
ever express to you that he had talked to anyone else on the campaign about
going to Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not -- no, | don't think so.

MR. SWALWELL: To your knowledge, did he express to you that he had
talked to candidate Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall ever him mentioning talking to candidate
Trump.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Jared Kushner?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not -- no, | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: How about Steve Bannon?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not -- | don't believe so. | don't know that for a fact, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: How about General Flynn?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know that --

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Papadopoulos ever talk to you about any
conversations he had with General Flynn?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir. | don't recall that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you know as to whether they had a relationship or
not?

MR. CLOVIS: | didn't know what General Flynn's relationship was with the
campaign, frankly, because he was -- you know, in that time period, | think
that -- he had been awfully coy in his relationship --

MR. SWALWELL: Who's "he"?

MR. CLOVIS: Flynn, General Flynn -- and whether or not he was going to

be associated with the campaign. And | think he had a book coming out in June

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yeah.

HE, One minute, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: What is he referring to when he says "Russia, the
debate"?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Had you and he discussed Russia coming up ina
debate?

MR. CLOVIS: | think the debates -- | can't remember how far along we
were, because the debates started in August, | think, and the first debate prep | did
was September. And | did all of the debate Prep coming up to -- | think, February,
we only had a handful left, only two or three left. And I'm not sure which one this
would've been.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you call him at 2:00 p.m.?

MR. CLOVIS: I don't know. | can't remember.

MR. SWALWELL: I'll yield.

MR. CONAWAY: All right.

Mr. Clovis, thank you again for being here.

The question we're trying to answer relative to this whole exercise is what
kind of relationship, if any, did either of the campaigns have with Russia, Russian
Government, Russian Government entities, government agents, government
provocateurs, folks who could spell "Russia."

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. CONAWAY: So let me get a couple easy ones out in the first place.

Carter Page told us in his conversation that he made a trip to Russia in the

summer of '16.

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MR. SWALWELL: | yield to Mr. Schiff.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Clovis, I'm sure you read about the now infamous
meeting in Trump Tower. Did you have any knowledge that that meeting was
going to take place?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone ever communicate to you after the meeting --

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: -- and prior to becoming public that the meeting had taken
place?

MR. CLOVIS: 1 didn't know about it until it became public.

MR. SCHIFF: Did the Agalarovs ever come up in conversation?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SCHIFF: Emin and Aras Agalarov?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: My colleague went over an email that you had received
along with others apparently from Peter Smith. Are you familiar with the public
reporting that Peter Smith had been engaged in trying to find the stolen Hillary
Clinton emails online?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure what -- what -- no, I'm not really familiar with
that story at all.

MR. SCHIFF: It's been reported that he had contacts within the Trump
campaign and that he was in contact with American people on the dark web who
might be Russian offering stolen Hillary Clinton emails. Did anyone at the
campaign ever describe to you that someone doing a quasi independent

expenditure, or not or very independent expenditure was searching for the Hillary

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of the Second Cold War."

Were you ever made aware of this email?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you know whether Mr. Page had a relationship with
Mr. Cox?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

Once you met Mr. Page in the winter of 2016, did you exchange contact
information?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. What type of contact information?

MR. CLOVIS: Email, phone.

MR. SWALWELL: After that meeting at Trump Tower with Mr. Page, do
you recall a January 30th, 2016, email from Mr. Page to you with the subject line
being, "J.P. Morgan Securities: GAZPROM INVESTOR DAY"?

MR. CLOVIS: No, I don't recall that. If you had it, | can look at it.

MR. SWALWELL: We'll mark that as exhibit 1, if that's okay with the chair.

MR. CONAWAY: Without objection.

[Clovis Exhibit No. 1
was marked for identification.]

MR. SWALWELL: It's Bates stamped DJTFP0000971 1-12.

MR. CLOVIS: So | probably ought to start at the end here, right?

MS. TOENSING: Do you have another copy of that?

MR. SWALWELL: Yeah.

Mr. Clovis, having read exhibit 1, do you recognize that email?

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MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And i --

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: -- would you agree is your email address?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: And it says, "Gentlemen" -- on March 22nd,

2016 -- "Expect a call from Mr. Trump today at some point."

Now, the way this email was produced, it's hard to see who is referred to as
"gentlemen," but Mr. Page is at least responding. Who else was that email sent
to?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Having looked at the email and read it, is your
recollection refreshed as to why you were sending that email?

MR. CLOVIS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: It goes on to say, "I was asked for your numbers this
morning. Given the events of the day, expect to be asked some questions about
what we need to be doing about the unfolding events. Talk to you all soon."

So | just want to go back. You said earlier that you don't recall Mr. Trump
making any calls. But this email from you seems to suggest that, at the time, you
had knowledge that he intended to do that.

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know if he made the call.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Carter Page ever tell you whether he received a call
from Mr. Trump?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: And, again, Mr. Page responds, thanking you, and then

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wished for the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton's emails. Do you remember that

statement?
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: | remember reading it about, yes.

SWALWELL: Were you a part of putting together that speech?
CLOVIS: No, sir. It was not my role.

SWALWELL: Did you ever interact with Rick Dearborn?
CLOVIS: Yes.

SWALWELL: When did you first meet him?

CLOVIS: | met Rick probably, | would guess, April or May of 2016?
SWALWELL: Did you go to an NRA conference in Kentucky?
CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: In May of 2016?

CLOVIS: No, sir.

SWALWELL: Did you go to an NRA conference at all that year?
CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: Did you ever meet with Maria Batina?

CLOVIS: No.

SWALWELL: Do you know who she is?

CLOVIS: No, sir.

SWALWELL: Would you pass along messages to Attorney General

Sessions through Rick Dearborn?

MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.

CLOVIS: No. Generally | talked directly to Senator Sessions.
SWALWELL: How would you communicate with Senator Sessions?
CLOVIS: By telephone mostly.

SWALWELL: You had his phone number?

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off-the-record meeting with Russian officials, on or about August 15th, 2016, the
campaign supervisor told defendant Papadopoulos that 'l would encourage you'
and another foreign policy adviser to the campaign to make the trip if it is
feasible."

So he was asking you, | am willing to make the trip off the record if it's in the
interest of Mr. Trump and the campaign. Did he not?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure that that trip refers to Russia. | think that trip
may have been to the Middle East.

MR. SCHIFF: So he was proposing to go to the Middle East to meet
Russian representatives?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. You're missing some -- there's --

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Clovis, please let me finish the question.

So it was your understanding that Mr. Papadopoulos was offering to go on
a trip to the Middle East to meet with Russian officials?

MR. CLOVIS: Not to meet with Russians, to go to the Middle East.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, the statement from Mr. Papadopoulos' plea is, "The
Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs messaged and said that if Mr. Trump is unable
to make it to Russia, if a campaign rep (me or someone else) can make it for
meetings? | am willing to make the trip off the record if it's in the interest of
Mr. Trump and the campaign to meet specific people."

So you're saying that he's talking about a trip to the Middle East?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure what he's talking about.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, when you advised him to make the trip if it was
feasible, you were talking about making a trip to Russia, were you not?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir.

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those connected with the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs if it was feasible?

MR. CLOVIS: No, sir. | never would've encouraged him to do that.

MR. SCHIFF: So when Mr. Papadopoulos stated this under oath to the
court, that was a false statement?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure it's a false statement. I'm just not sure the
context is there.

MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Papadopoulos discuss with you the request by the
Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs to meet with campaign officials?

MR. CLOVIS: He had sent emails, and | think those have been provided.
But I'd never encouraged him to meet with the Russians.

HV. Schiff, 1 minute, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: So it's your testimony that the only trip that you encouraged
him to make if it was feasible was to the Middle East?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir. That's my understanding, yes.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Papadopoulos also states in his plea that he forwarded
to you the May 4th Ministry of Foreign Affairs email, along with a message,
"Wanted to pass this info along to you for you to decide what's best to do with it
and what message | should send (or to ignore)."

What did you tell him to do about that message?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure what | -- | don't think | ever encouraged him to
ever meet with the Russians.

HE, That's time, sir.

MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Clovis, my colleagues have been reading
extensively from a court document in which Mr. Papadopoulos got himself in front

of that court as a result of lying to the FBI. And my colleague has mentioned on

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Lincoln dinner. And | went out and gave a hearty introduction to him, and he liked
it, and | had a chance to talk to him.

The next day, | officiated a townhall for him at Morningside College, and |
had an opportunity to spend about an hour and a half with him one-on-one. And it
was after that that his people approached me and asked me, if he ran for
President, would | join the team.

| told him that I'd already promised Rick Perry that | would support Rick if
Rick ran, because | campaigned with him during the 2014 cycle, gotten to know
him very well. We're good friends. And when Rick dropped out, | received calls
from 12 campaigns, 7 candidates. And one of the calls | got was from New York.

MR. SWALWELL: Early in 2014, who on the Trump team had been your
contacts that were asking you to be a part of the team if he ran?

MR. CLOVIS: It was only at that fundraiser, and it was just the two or three
people he had with him. And it was just -- | just got acquainted with him. There
was no followup to that at all.

MR. SWALWELL: The followup that you referred to where he asked you,
or his team asked you to work with him --

MR. CLOVIS: Was after the 15th -- the 16th of May.

MR. SWALWELL: Pottawattamie?

MR. CLOVIS: Yeah. It was actually after the townhall at Morningside
College on the 16th of May.

MR. SWALWELL: Who on his team asked you the join the team?

MR. CLOVIS: It was Chuck Laudner, who was his lowa State director.

MR. SWALWELL: When would you say it was official that you were on the

Trump campaign team? What day?

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relating to the April 26 meeting with the professor?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't recall that at all, sir.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

On May 7th, 2016, Mr. Papadopoulos emailed Hope Hicks, asking about
protocols for interviews and specifically a Bloomberg request seeking the team's
thoughts. Ms. Hicks replied, "Fine with me, but please make sure not to suggest
your position is Mr. Trump's."

Were you aware of this request that Mr. Papadopoulos made to Ms. Hicks?

MR. CLOVIS: If! was on the email, | might have been aware of it at the
time, but | don't recall that.

MR. SWALWELL: You would agree that Ms. Hicks, at that point, in May,
was a senior member of the team?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes.

MR. SWALWELL: In June, Mr. Papadopoulos, according to the statement
of facts, asked a high-ranking campaign official about arranging a Putin-Trump
meeting, stating that, "| am willing to make the trip off the record if it's in the
interest of Mr. Trump and the campaign to meet specific people."

Are you the high-ranking official in that referenced statement of facts?

MR. CLOVIS: I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

MR. SWALWELL: Could you be?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, I could be.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Papadopoulos ask you about making an
off-the-record trip?

MR. CLOVIS: He had asked about going to Russia, and | had made it very

clear to him that in no way, shape, or form could he go. and represent the

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MR. CONAWAY: Out from then through any relevant period in 2017, are
you aware of any effort to engage either Papadopoulos, Carter, or any of the other
six in trips to Russia on behalf of the campaign?

MR. CLOVIS: No. No. | was always delay, delay, delay, deny, deny,
deny. It was because --

MR. CONAWAY: Wait a minute. Hang on. Delay, delay, deny, deny
what?

MR. CLOVIS: Anytime somebody would ask about something like that, the
notion --

MR. CONAWAY: Russia?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes. You know, you've got to remember, in March, my role
in the campaign changed dramatically, and that was from being close to the
candidate, you know, a daily interaction with him and the campaign, to then my job
became much more as the -- and | hate to use the term, but John the Baptist,
because | became the person who was to go out and deal with all of the think
tanks, all the interest groups, everybody in this town, in Washington, everybody all
over the country. And so it was my job to go out and tamp down, you know,
resistance to the candidate or at least to try to neutralize that through meetings
and interface with them so we could talk about the candidate. And that was really
my job. | became the road warrior, and | traveled all over the country doing that.

Stephen Miller took over most of the day-to-day hand-holding of the
candidate from a policy perspective in that March timeframe. And so, you know, |
was almost, | would say, just as the fact that -- | happened to be in D.C. at the time
to help put that meeting together, the 31st of March meeting. But any interaction

on foreign policy after that was -- | had virtually no say on foreign policy. | had

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let you know the type of work some of our advisers are capable of. Was that your
email?

MR. CLOVIS: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Does that indicate that you thought highly of Carter Page's
work?

MR. CLOVIS: | did.

MR. CONAWAY: No questions. 15 minutes.

MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

| think you testified earlier that if Mr. Phares, Walid Phares and Steve
Bannon were arranging -- were engaging with Egyptian officials to organize
candidate Trump's meeting with President el-Sisi, that was something that took
place without your knowledge?

MR. CLOVIS: Absolutely, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you know anything of the relationship between
Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Bannon?

MR. CLOVIS: No, not at all.

MR. SCHIFF: The administration has made an effort to characterize Mr.
Papadopoulos as a coffee boy. If he was interacting with Steve Bannon and
establishing a meeting with President el-Sisi, does that indicate to you that his role
was something more that that?

MR. CLOVIS: You're asking me for an opinion | don't care to offer. | don't
think -- | don't know that | would be able to characterize it one way or the other. |
don't mean no disrespect, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: But if, indeed, he was involved with Steve Bannon and

organizing a meeting with a president of another country, that would indicate that

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email address?

MR. CLOVIS: | gave him a card, yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: And he actually has your J and
HE emails. Is that right?

MR. CLOVIS: Right. Yeah.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay.

In the email, he's referring to the Republican convention in Cleveland, but
he mentions a “Rohrabacher dinner that I've been developing a back-channel to
the Kremlin for the past couple of years -- really, just the recipient of their
outreach. Comes now an important inquiry on that front.”

What's the Rohrabacher dinner he's referencing?

MR. CLOVIS: it was a dinner at The Monocle that | got invited to. Dana
Rohrabacher, your colleague Dana Rohrabacher had set up a dinner there. You
know, | didn't know how big it was, small it was. | showed up, and it was probably
20 people. It was in one of the upstairs dining rooms there.

Congressman Rohrabacher's view about Russia was quite contrary to mine,
so | was very uncomfortable that evening with the discussion. But it was a free
meal, and | needed one.

MR. SWALWELL: Who asked you to go?

MR. CLOVIS: It was -- | think one of his associates had invited me.

MR. SWALWELL: One of Congressman Rohrabacher's?

MR. CLOVIS: Rohrabacher's. But my Congressman was there, Steve
King was there. So | went because Steve and | had communicated about it.

MR. SWALWELL: Who else was there?

MR. CLOVIS: | don't know who the other people are. | do know Senator

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[12:00 p.m.]

MR. CONAWAY: So, other than Jeff Sessions and whatever role he might
have played in the campaign --

MR. CLOVIS: Right.

MR. CONAWAY: -- is it fair to characterize those other seven as window
dressing?

MR. CLOVIS: | would say there were some that didn't have a role. Bert
Mizusawa and Keith Kellogg went to New York and advised in New York over the
course -- the rest of the campaign.

MR. CONAWAY: Directly with the candidate or --

MR. CLOVIS: Directly with -- well, | don't know if it was directly with the
candidate. | have no knowledge of that. But | do know that they were in
New York and they were party to that.

MR. CONAWAY: Okay.

So, in your role, were you aware of any collusion with the Russian
Government, with Putin, with Russians in general and the Trump campaign,
Trump himself, Trump orbit folks?

MR. CLOVIS: No. And I would never have advised him to follow up on
any of that.

MR. CONAWAY: How about coordinating efforts that the Russians might
have been doing on their own with respect to impacts it has with the Trump
campaign, or the campaign wanting the Russians to do something on its behalf
that would advance its interests? Any knowledge of that with the Russian

Government, Putin himself, elements of the Russian Government, or Russians in

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