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that we were sitting, meeting in that executive office, a few of us, J.D., Tera Dahl,
and myself, and we were assessing who is doing what.

We had what we call chats. And when we came to the discussion about
Mr. Papadopoulos, at least the two of us, Gordon and myself, Tera was listening,
you know, sort of exchanged the point of view that Mr. Papadopoulos is really
interested in the Russia file -- Russia file in the sense Russia desk, Russia
relations.

And that was -- and during those 2 weeks where | served in that executive
office during those weeks.

Q And during that period, what was your perception of the role that Mr.
Papadopoulos was playing, was perhaps authorized to play on behalf of the
campaign?

A | was -- | remember now that | had a perception of what he wanted to
do. [had no information as to'what he was doing or if he was in communication
with higher levels allowing him to do. That was not clear. But what was clear is
that this is what he was seeking to do.

Q And can you describe a bit more what you were seeing him do, or at
least what he was presenting to the campaign either through emails or in the
meetings as what his role could be and who he was talking to?

A If we put it under one umbrella, should it be emails, including this one
| read later, but other emails as well on private -- on the campaign server and the
little discussions we had with him -- that would be at that lunch meeting -- he was
focussing on the fact that he can -- he can -- he has connections and he could use
those connections to open a path between the campaign and Russia. So that's

his general attitude that he is the one who can do that.

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message that: | have a foreign policy team. That's my impression. | could be
wrong, but | did not change my impression.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, Mr. Sessions’ response to Mr. Papadopoulos,
essentially this is not the time, we'll address this later, did that happen after
everyone finished speaking or did that happen immediately after Papadopoulos
finished speaking?

MR. PHARES: That! have a clearer remembrance. It was after
Mr. Papadopoulos.

MR. SCHIFF: And the President's comments about, | heard you, would
those have been -- did he address people sequentially after each spoke, or did he
wait until everyone was done and then sort of go around the table?

MR. PHARES: Congressman, | remember, the best | can, is that after
each person he said a few words.

MR. SCHIFF: And your best recollection, in terms of what he responded to
Papadopoulos, was something along the lines that: | hear you?

MR. PHARES: Yes, | hear you. He could have said other words, but |
don't remember what were the other words.

| don't think, from my recollection, that he engaged except for the question
about nuclear readiness. He asked a question. So the military who said, our
nuclear readiness, he then asked a question and the military responded, as far as
| can remember, and then Mr. Trump closed.

MR. SCHIFF: And did candidate Trump make any kind of a closing set of
remarks after everyone spoke or was there another round of discussion or was
this, as you indicated, more about getting the photo?

MR. PHARES: | repeat again here that my impression was that he was in

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Appearances:

For the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE:

For WALID PHARES:

MICHAEL P. SOCARRAS
SCHMITZ SOCARRAS LLP
8200 GREENSBORO DRIVE
SUITE 1500

MCLEAN, VA 22102

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[1:27 p.m.]
a

Q And these invitations, did you perceive them as being addressed to
you in your personal capacity or being addressed to you as a recent Trump
campaign adviser, someone who advised the now or then-President-elect?

A Now, that's assessment and not knowledge, because they never
mentioned this to me.

Q Right.

A The assessment is | am known to them because | am in the media
as an expert, so they know that | have posted, spoken, addressed the issue in
Syria and in Iraq and in the areas they're interested in.

And | assume -- this is only assessment -- that, of course, having served in
a Presidential campaign, though | left, | am still in the orbit. So | am just
assuming that for those two reasons they wanted to speak with me.

Q So it could have been both, as far as you know, both your academic
expertise and your recent role in the campaign?

A That's right.

Q The only reply in the last communication you provided to us is from
Rebecca (ph) to Mr. Shevchenko (ph), December 29th. It is a request to
postpone the meeting in light of the expulsion of Russian diplomats until you,

Dr. Phares, obtained clear guidance from the transition.

Can you speak to what interactions you had with the transition regarding
these potential meetings?

A It's going to be very simple: None. | actually did not reach out to

the transition to ask. And | told her, we don't want to continue on this path.

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having met with or talked to persons | knew to be Russian officials, agents, or
nationals with respect to activities occurring between January 1st, 2014, and
November 8th, 2016, in connection with my involvement in the Trump Presidential
campaign."

You also say later in that statement, quote, "My work on the campaign was
precisely to field contacts from foreigners," end quote.

A From, sorry?

Q From foreigners.

A Yes.

Q You testified earlier, | believe, that you didn't know Ambassador
Kislyak was at the Mayflower Hotel meeting until the end of that meeting when
someone mentioned that.

| believe you also testified in your statement that you shook hands with the
Ukrainian Ambassador to the U.S. during the RNC Convention in Cleveland,
correct?

A That's correct, sir.

Q What other foreigners did you -- from whom did you field contacts?

A Where and when?

Q During -- from your period here you said -- let's take it from the
moment you became affiliated with the campaign, so March -- third week of
March 2016 until November 9th.

A That will be a long list. If we can take the map | could go --

Q And I'm just looking for countries, you know, names, to the extent
you -- | mean, I'm not expecting a full ~-

A No. No. No. Ofcourse. I'll just give you the -- and then if you

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America, who will be covering Russia, who will be covering China?

So we had that discussion, but there were no substantive material to what
we're going to do in which direction or who exactly is it going to be.

And | remember now, | did remember already, that Mr. Gordon had a task
to assemble a list of specialists, eventually advisers, lower-level advisers, who
would deal with the various files. And that list must be with him or with some
archive. But that is the extent | can remember that Russia was discussed.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall who was assigned Russia?

MR. PHARES: Not at that stage, Congressman. To the best of my
understanding or recollection, | didn't see names actually covering the areas other
than the Middle East. | mean, other than myself for the Middle East.

MR. SCHIFF: And this list that you discussed that J.D. Gordon had written
up, was it a handwritten list or a typewritten list?

MR. PHARES: | think it was both, Congressman, the best way | can
remember, because we were sitting at the desk, and then he would be putting
names, scratching names, going to see Mr. Rick Dearborn and back, and would
ask him, what are these names, who are these people? | saw that list twice
scribbled and then | saw it typed.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall, if not at that time, at some subsequent
time, who was assigned on the list to Russia?

MR. PHARES: The best of my remembrance, no, | do not recall a name
for Russia. But | recall that there should be somebody, an expert on Russia to
give analysis on Russia.

Because the idea initially before | left the office was we need to have

experts who would write policy papers on all these countries, including Middle

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"You are not to travel on behalf of the campaign or act as a surrogate on the
campaign,” that there was knowledge of his travels and a degree of at least
acquiescence to Mr. Papadopoulos’ activity internationally.

And when you compare that with the public record of Mr. Papadopoulos
traveling to Israel, for example, and speaking publicly, at least the appearance of
speaking publicly on behalf of the campaign and being quoted in local press on
behalf of the campaign, we're just trying to understand and reconcile the email
threads that we've seen, but also the public record of what actually occurred.

A | fully understand what you're trying to understand. I'm going to do
my best to explain the part where | heard and engaged. Because what | cannot
help with is -- are the conversations between Dr. Clovis and Mr. Papadopoulos.

Where | cannot help with is what -- when Mr. Papadopoulos eventually got
connected to New York. And that's another chapter that | learned about in
September, that he was active with Mr. Bannon on Egypt. So for all these
6 months, | had no idea that he was actually even connected.

So to answer with focus, my conversations with Dr. Clovis was that
Dr. Clovis was bothered by these multiple requests. What did he tell
Papadopoulos, | don't know what did he tell.

The emails | saw, on the face of them, yes, go prepare a trip or let me know
before you go to prepare a trip, could be read in two different ways. It's
instructions to go prepare, or it's, give me a break, go prepare and then we'll tell
you no.

| am, | think, from what | know and | heard from Dr. Clovis, | think it's B, B,
that he was not interested but he would tell him to go prepare. And | understand

when you mentioned that he could have told him no. He could have. | don't

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A Dr. Ben Carson. At the time | didn't know, because | personally
briefed Dr. Carson, but | didn't know who he had with him in his shop.

So he, Mr. Papadopoulos, according to the persons with whom | had
conversation, told me he came -- sorry, I'm too fast -- he came from that campaign
through individuals. ! don't recall the names of the individuals. But one of the
individuals who basically was in touch with the Carson campaign to recruit
individuals after the doctor stepped down was Dr. --

Q Clovis?

A Clovis, thank you. So Dr. Clovis basically brought him to our
campaign.

Q And with respect to Dr. Page, do you have any idea -- so at the time
you didn't know, when he was announced, how he had become affiliated with the
campaign?

A No, | knew more about Mr. Papadopoulos, because | was told how
he came. But for Mr. Page till now, | don't know exactly how he came, till now.

Q Even sitting here today, you're not sure how he got on?

A Even sitting here today, | don't know. I'm not sure, but | would
qualify that | really don't have that information.

Q So with respect to Mr. Papadopoulos, you mentioned your
interactions with him or his presentation that he made on the meeting on March
31st as well as what you remember of the response from then-Senator Sessions.

Did you have any response to his comments, either that you expressed to
others or that you just felt yourself when he mentioned about proposing outreach
to Russia?

A At that meeting, none. At the restaurant get-together, | had a very

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on -- on one name, Randa Kassis. That name, | can't tell you anything at this
point in time because | don't recall, but that name came in the sphere of those who
dealt with Syria, and | could check if you want for later to see if it's the sphere of
Assad. That's why | was -- when you mentioned the name, | have heard that
name. But this is something | cannot report now.

Q Okay. That would be very helpful if you can. But just to be clear,
so, other than the press reports, you were not aware of travel by Donald Trump Jr.
to Paris for this or any other purpose?

A | wasn't aware of any of his travel, including this one.

Q Okay. There has been public reporting on what occurred during this
trip and how much Mr. Donald Trump Jr. was paid. Given your career, your
public speaking role, your travel abroad on behalf -- to lecture or to speak at
conferences, has it been your experience that speakers are compensated for
appearing at an event sponsored by think tanks?

A Yes. Tomy recollection, it depends. People like myself, scholars,
academics, former government people, are often contracted by think tanks,
foundations, to receive an honorarium and to deliver a lecture.

But there is also the case whereby high-profile people who want to deliver
the lecture not for monetary purposes, you know, are not paid.

Q Right.

A So it depends on the cases.

Q And generally, what is your understanding of what the going rate
would be for someone who does receive an honorarium?

A To the best of my assessment, it's very difficult to give a rate,

because the rates are so wide. What we call -- and excuse the way we're going

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So you recall Dr. Clovis encouraging these efforts?
No, engaging about these efforts.

Right.

Encouraging to go, meaning --

oO FD F OD

Yeah, let me ask my question again.

MR. SOCARRAS: Just listen to the question.

MR. PHARES: |'m sorry about that.

oY

Q Do you recall anyone from the campaign encouraging or offering
official sanction to Mr. Papadopoulos's efforts to broker these contacts with the
Russians?

A That's a very wide question. |! would say, from what | recall, was
that Mr. Papadopoulos reaching out to Clovis, asking him what about such trips,
and then there's a blank. | don't recall, from my personal experience, what Dr.
Clovis has responded, but then | read an email.

So do you want to call this recall? That was what I learned in the media
later, that he had asked him, from what I can understand, to explore -- what would
that be -- meaning to give him a plan of what would that mean, and then nothing
has happened, as far as | understood.

Q And are you -- other than this meeting on March 31st, are you aware
of any other interactions between Mr. Papadopoulos and Candidate Trump?

A As far as | can remember, | am not aware of any of that information
related to any meeting between Mr. Papadopoulos or -- and the Candidate.

Q Are you aware of any meetings or interactions between Mr.

Papadopoulos and senior New York-based campaign officials?

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serve, keep in mind those statements won't be reflecting later on. But it had no
effect on my statements.

Q Thank you. And just to be clear, then, the answer is "no" to the
question of whether you had any interaction with or knowledge of the -- or
participation in or knowledge of the Trump campaign's interactions with Egypt -- or
Egyptian officials regard the UN resolution on Israeli settlements?

A | haven't had any interaction on that issue.

Q And in December of 2016, did you have any interactions of any kind
that you recall with General Flynn?

A In December of 2016, | had no, as far as | can remember, interaction
with General Flynn.

Q Now, you also provided us some copies or text versions of emails
concerning a potential meeting with the Ambassador to the United States from
Russia, Kislyak. The first one that you produced is dated December 13, and
teads: | write to you on behalf of Russian Ambassador to clarify the opportunity
to arrange a meeting between him and you.

Now, in English, "clarify" would usually give the implication that there had
been some prior communication on this topic. It seems that Mr. Shevchenko (ph),
who authored this email, may not be a native English speaker, so | don't want to
read too much into his particular word choice.

But before you got this email, had you had any prior discussion with Mr.
Shevchenko (ph) or anyone else about a meeting between you and the Russian
Ambassador Kislyak?

A This was the first email | received, first to my website, then to my

assistant's, and | had not had any meeting with either the Ambassador or any

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The second one was at Congress, and | mentioned it in my report,
where -- and | could expand a little bit to explain what that meeting was all about.

There were members of the European Parliament visiting with and meeting
with Members of the U.S. Congress, the House mostly, from both parties.

And the European side had mentioned to me when | went to speak to -- to
deliver a speech in Europe, that there is a lot of unease about your
candidate -- because they knew that | was a foreign policy adviser -- we would like
to have a delegation or a team from your campaign -- because they are right of
center -- when we come to Washington in July, mid-July, to explain to us or to
respond to a few questions.

| said, fine. | contacted Dr. Clovis. And he said, okay, let's have a team.

And Mr. Papadopoulos was part of that team.

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between her and him. What asked her to reproduce is what did they want from
us, what did we tell them.

But if you want, | could go and ask her were there any other email between
the 19th and 29th; were there any other email between me and Rebecca (ph)

about it between the 19th and 29th, but | don't have it.

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to put it -- the Bill Clinton rate or Gates rate, these are a lot of zeros, to, if people
are like scholars, advanced scholars, somewhere between $5,000, $10,000
should be an acceptable rate.

Q So the public reporting suggests at least that Donald Trump Jr. was
paid -- was offered $85,000 for the speech. Would you view that rate, in light of
the spectrum of payment that you described, as being extremely generous?

MR. SOCARRAS: At this point, I'd like to jump in and say if the minority
would like to put Dr. Phares on contract as an analyst, I'm sure he'd be happy to
help out, but at this point you're going beyond his knowledge. This is opinions.

2

Q Of course, it's purely opinion. We're taking it as such. It is merely
because he has worked in that field. | can only speak for myself, but I'm not
aware of the going rate, although I'm hoping it's lucrative maybe one day.

So yes, just generally speaking?

A For scholars --

Q And with all the caveats you may want to add.

A Well, all the caveats were added by my lawyer. | would add that this
is purely assessment, if not speculation. But! can answer the question, offer to
answer the question, is that for usual scholars, even advanced scholars, this
would be too high. | mean, no professor or head of think tank will get more than
maybe $20,000, regardless of who the person was.

This is a high-profile rate, which | call the Bill Clinton, and maybe now in this
case you're informing me that these are the rates that are given to international,
internationally recognized political figures.

Q Okay. Let me just check with my colleague.

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Dr. Page and Candidate Trump?

A | don't have any recollection of him reporting about him having a
meeting. What | remember is that him -- not protesting, but not happy that he was
not able to be meeting till that time with the Candidate.

Q Are you aware of any interactions between Dr. Page and senior New
York-based campaign officials?

A The best | can remember is that Mr. Page interacted with Dr. Clovis.
That, we know, he mentioned that element. |, at this point in time, do not
remember, unless I'm refreshed, my memory is refreshed, of him reporting about
him conducting meetings with anybody we could remember in New York, but he
was based in New York.

Q Now, as you discussed, two of the five campaign foreign policy
advisers that Candidate Trump announced to the Washington Post editorial board
had expressed an interest in improving U.S. and Russia relations, did you attribute
any significance to that fact, either at the time or later?

A So this is assessment, not direct testimony.

Q Understood.

A | have no information about why two and not five, so, obviously, the
person who recruited us is the one who decided about who is going to be there, so
we did not recruit them or each other.

Second, there was a difference between the way those two advisers
thought of international relations and therefore relations with Russia and the rest of
the other members. It was a philosophical difference. All of them were
conservatives, for sure, but in terms of international relations, those who have

served in the U.S. Government that you can see here or have served in the

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Ya

And let me read the Bates number. It's DJTFP00023871.
Thank you.

You can read it in reverse order.

Like this? Okay. Reverse order.

Yes, from the last two pages.

Okay.

So this is an email from you to Ivanka on September 18, 2016.
Uh-huh.

I'm going to read a few excerpts from it.

> O Fr D0 FD F DBD YF O

Yes.

Q You write, "Just to inform you" -- "you" being Ivanka -- "that I" -- "I"
being Walid Phares -- "traveled to Egypt last week, worked with them on the
meeting between President Sisi and your father (as | mentioned to you weeks
ago), then coordinated with General Flynn for him to coordinate in New York.
Great that the meeting will take place tomorrow. This is a major victory in foreign
policy. It will generate more votes."

The next paragraph deals with a potential meeting that you explore with the
Argentinean President Macri.

Was it in your conversations with the Egyptians in Egypt that you became
aware of a separate, what appears to be a separate preparatory track between
Mr. Bannon and Mr. Papadopoulos, or was it here in Washington that you learned
of this?

A To the best of my recollection, it was here in Washington. And it

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me, can we now use your name? | said, yes, now you can use my name, I've
accepted, but it's up to them at their discretion to release it to the media.

As far as | can remember, | think candidate Trump at that time released my
first name during either an interview, probably with MSNBC or some other forum, |
don't clearly remember. They have asked him, who do you follow on foreign
policy or who advises you on foreign policy? He mentioned a couple names,
including Richard Haass. And then -- and he said Walid.

A couple people from the press reaching out to me, is that you? | did not
answer, because | didn't know what was my status yet.

Then | was surprised that day when -- surprised meaning | was not
expecting that he would release my name to The Washington Post. | was sitting
at my desk in my office, and phone calls started to come to me and telling me that
your name has been released, among other names.

MR. SCHIFF: When you called in mid-March to give your consent, did you
call Ivanka, is that who you reached out to?

MR. PHARES: Called Ivanka? Yes. Either called or emailed, | don't
remember, Congressman, but it's one of the two.

MR. SCHIFF: But you would have reached out to her, contacted her to
give your consent, because she was the one who originally asked?

MR. PHARES: That's correct, Congressman.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was your contact with the campaign after you
were named as one of the five foreign policy advisers?

MR. PHARES: It was gradual, as far as | can remember. So Ivanka told
me, now you have to meet with Dr. --

MR. SCHIFF: Page?

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the minority will be given 15 minutes to ask questions and the majority will be
given 15 minutes. We will then proceed in 15-minute rounds until questioning is
completed.

These time limits will be strictly adhered to.

Our record today will reflect that you have not been compelled to appear.
You are reminded that it is unlawful to deliberately provide false information to
Members of Congress or to staff.

The record will reflect that you are voluntarily participating in this interview,
which will be under oath.

Please raise your right hand.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

MR. PHARES: | do.

HE Thank you.

Mr. Schiff.

MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, and welcome. And | apologize, is it Dr.
Phares?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Phares, I'd like to initially ask you about how you came
to join the Trump campaign and in what capacity you served.

So would you tell us a little bit about your political activity during the
Presidential campaign prior to joining the Trump campaign, if there was any, or
whether the Trump campaign was the first campaign you became involved with?

MR. PHARES: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you.

| joined in 2011, 2012 the Romney campaign. | was one of the advisers of

Governor Romney. | served throughout the campaign. And since we lost,

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Q And did he have a desk or working space at the campaign office in
Alexandria?

A As far as | can remember, | haven't seen Mr. Page in that office.

Q Did you ever meet Dr. Page in person?

A | did meet with Dr. Page in person, yes.

Q And do you remember the circumstances of those meetings?

A | do remember one meeting whereby the whole group was meeting,
so the foreign policy organized by Mr. Gordon. So he was at least at one. That's
what my memory is telling me. And | do remember, of course, that he was at the
convention.

He was at the Republican convention, and he was doing that day that was
mentioned many time in the media where the advisers were invited to a panel, and
there were many diplomats. He was there.

Q And the advisers’ get-together, where you met him, do you recall
where that was or when that was?

A | recall at least one time, which was at the Italian fine restaurant on
Route 7 in Virginia. So we were the advisers, and that was coordinated by Mr.
Gordon.

Another meeting that | did not attend took place between the advisers and
Senator Sessions. | don't know where it was, but | recall J.D. mentioning to me
that we -- can you come? | said | won't be able; | won't be in town. So there was
a meeting. That one was attended by Mr. Page.

Now, because of media and report, now | know that this meeting has been
discussed in various places.

Q But you weren't at the one -- the time you recall meeting Dr. Page,

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A | don't recall I've had any conversation focusing on the email or any
related matters that you have mentioned.

Q Okay. On the issue of his trips and Mr. Clovis' offer or attempt to
get others, including possibly you, to join him on trips, was it your understanding at
the time that Mr. Clovis and potentially others on the campaign were aware that he
was traveling to various or seeking to travel to various places in his capacity as a
campaign surrogate?

A To the best of my recollection from conversations | had with
Dr. Clovis, the general attitude -- because that attitude is important to determine
the conversation. He felt that Mr. Papadopoulos was doing things beyond what
he, Dr. Clovis, or the campaign wanted to do. He was too active in that direction.

And | use a term that Dr. Clovis may have -- not may, has
mentioned -- which is out of my hair.

So when | read the emails, the emails look formal, but what is behind the
emails in my conversation with Clovis is we don't want that. But in his emails, he,
as far as | can remember, okay, go plan whatever you want and let me know.

But | don't think, from what | know, and | don't know everything, that he told
him, George, go, organize, come back, and I'll green light you. That's not what |
understood. | understood that, okay, go and see what you want to do, but tell me.

Q So I'm trying to reconcile that impression that you had with the
conversation you mentioned where Mr. Clovis sought your assistance in joining
Mr. Papadopoulos on international trips.

A Yes.

Q It would suggest that if Mr. Clovis was seeking out other campaign

surrogates to join Mr. Papadopoulos rather than telling Mr. Papadopoulos outright,

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with many people.

Q Any idea who he may have been a frequent or relatively frequent
communicator with on the campaign? So as you mentioned -- you mentioned the
possibility that he was speaking to other surrogates.

A | can, to answer this question, | could go back and say that | was
aware that he spoke with Dr. Clovis. Dr. Clovis spoke to me about his
conversations with him. | was aware that J.D. Gordon spoke with him.

And during those luncheons that the group had, he was speaking to all of

: the members who were around the table. And then at the meeting in Congress
he was silent. He was pretty much silent. Though after the meeting was over,
when | was dealing with officials, | saw him speaking to -- or trying to speak to
other people.

Q And when was this meeting?

A In my report -- | don't have a copy of my report, but it should be -- it's
the July 14 or 15 meeting in Congress between the members of the EU Parliament
and the Members of the U.S. Congress and other NGOs.

Q It says in your submission July 12th, 2016?

A Yes, July 12th, as far as | can remember.

Q Do you recall any interaction between him and Mr. Carter Page?

A As far as | can recall -- though it must be a little bit peculiar answer
because both are said to have that same interest -- | don't recall either seeing
them or hearing what they were discussing.

Q Okay. If | can go back to the foreign policy adviser team in
Alexandria.

A Yes. Uh-huh.

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

WASHINGTON, D.C.

INTERVIEW OF: WALID PHARES

Friday, December 8, 2017
Washington, D.C.

The interview in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, the Capitol,
commencing at 11:15 a.m.

Present: Representatives Schiff and Heck.

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or emails from Hillary Clinton.

Was that a subject matter that you ever became aware of or have
knowledge of through the course of your time on the campaign in discussions with
individuals in the campaign or around the campaign?

A To the best of my knowledge, | don't have any recollection of that
subject being discussed in my presence. The only time | learned about it was
from the media.

Q These final questions are similar but more specific than questions
that my colleagues around the aisle asked you about any activity you may have
conducted or anybody who may have approached you. But during the campaign,
did you ever provide any individual with any information related to Hillary Clinton or
any other political candidate or party? Let me rephrase that.

Did you ever provide any individual that you may have known was linked to
the Russian Government or had a relationship with the Russian Government in
any way with any information related to Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump?

A To my recollection, no.

Q Are you aware of anybody who provided information to the Russian
Government or an agent of the Russian Government during the campaign?

A To my recollection, no.

Q During the campaign, did you ever receive information about Hillary
Clinton or any other individual related to the Democratic party or Clinton's political
campaign from an unidentified source or a source you were not familiar with, either
by email, by text message, by phone call, by other private direct message?

A Clarification.

Q Please.

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Also, please use the microphone when speaking. A green light indicates
that the microphone is on.

You are entitled to have a lawyer present for this interview, though you are
not required to do so. _| see that you have counsel present and would ask your
attorney to make an appearance for the record.

MR. SOCARRAS: My name is Michael Socarras, and | represent
Dr. Walid Phares.

| wanted to confirm the terms of the interview. | understand that the
interview will be confidential, that it will not be released outside the committee, and
that Dr. Phares will have the opportunity to review the transcript for any errors.
before it is finalized. Is that correct?

ME, Yes. 40d I'll address the review momentarily.

MR. SOCARRAS: Thank you.

HE, ensure confidentiality, we ask that you do not discuss this
interview with anyone other than your attorney. Consistent with the committee's
rules of procedure, you and your counsel, if you wish, will have a reasonable
opportunity to inspect the transcript of this interview in order to determine whether
your answers were correctly transcribed. The transcript will remain in the
committee's custody.

The committee also reserves the right to request your return for additional
questions, should the need arise.

The process for today's interview is as follows. The minority will be given
45 minutes to ask questions. Then the majority will be given 45 minutes to ask
questions.

Immediately thereafter, we will take a short break if you wish, after which

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A That somebody would have sent a loaded email to my website, |
have no control knowing, and sometimes it will go into the trash. That is not what
you're talking about?

Q No. It's to what extent are you aware or do you have knowledge of
receiving any information?

There have been public reports about contacts via direct message on
Twitter, for example, or by unsolicited email, or an approach in person where there
may have been an offer of information. Are you aware of any of that that may
have occurred with you?

A Yes. On Twitter or any direct messaging way, | have not received
any of the messages you are mentioning. And to the best of my recollection, |
don't recall having received such messages through a website or even direct
contact.

Q And in the course of your time on the campaign, did you ever gain
knowledge of or hear from others on the campaign who may have discussed
having been approached themselves by a third party claiming to have information
of value to the campaign that may in some way relate to Hillary Clinton?

A To the best of my recollection, | do not remember hearing from
others that either they know or they had received information that would be
detrimental to Secretary Clinton during my tenure during the campaign.

HR | think that concludes the minority's questions.

| Dr. Phares, thank you. The committee certainly appreciates
the time you spent here with us today.

And, with that, we're adjourned.

MR. PHARES: Thank you very much.

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MR. SCHIFF: Was that before or after the Mayflower speech?

MR. PHARES: | don't have recollection. Most likely, if | can use this
terminology, most likely it was after. But | don't have a recollection. | don't have
notes, unfortunately, from this very dense time.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Thank you. | yield to the majority.

HR Thank you.
~~

Q And, Dr. Phares, thank you for being here, on behalf of the
committee and the majority members. | hope that you will please attribute the
absence of any members on our side to the vagaries of the congressional
schedule, which led to votes being cancelled today at the last minute, rather than
any lack of interest in what you have to share with us.

| want to start by focusing a little more on Mr. Papadopoulos and then
turning to Mr. Page.

So candidate Trump may have mentioned you once on TV, but you were
formally announced as a foreign policy adviser during a meeting between
candidate Trump and The Washington Post editorial board. Is that correct?

A That's correct, sir.

Q And you were one of five people that he mentioned as a

formal -- publicly announced as a foreign policy adviser at that time. Is that

correct?
One of five, and then others were added later.
Q Right.
A So we became that large.
Q Right. But the initial five included yourself, correct?

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Tera Dahl -- now | remember those two -- telling them that the Egyptians are
telling me that they don't know even where and how the meeting is going to take
place.

This explains what | was trying to tell lvanka, but not the best way you could
explain. | was telling lvanka, oh, | met with them and et cetera. But what had
happened in reality is that they told me that the meeting will take place, we don't
have information.

So | communicated with Flynn, and Flynn told me, okay, I'll talk with the
team. I'll talk with the team. And from there on, he took it, he and Bannon and
everybody else, so | was not following up.

Q And you returned to Washington, D.C.?

A I did, yes.

Q And had conversations about -- with the Egyptian mission here, |
presume, where it was disclosed to you by them that, in fact, Mr. Bannon and
Mr. Papadopoulos were involved in coordinating this meeting? Is that correct?

A Let me clarify a little bit. | will consult my memoir, my memory.

| am not sure if the Egyptians in Washington -- | mean, in the
States -- informed me about the fact that there was another track actually working
on it, if it was before the meeting between the two principals or after that. That!
am not sure,

But what happened is that | was in touch with the Egyptian diplomats who
are my friends here, and they told me everything is being taken care of, we are in
touch with everybody in New York.

So there was that lapse of a time where between the embassy here and the

government there, when they met me and said we don't have any information, |

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was me, and then another line -- two lines with a gentleman who dealt with
congressional liaison, and one person was assigned the outreach to communities
for purpose of election, but ethnic communities.

So | went there, and Mr. Dearborn requested they're going to be there, that
we need to be there from 9 to 5 everyday. So! attended. What did we do in that
office? Basically we got one morning meeting with Mr. Dearborn where he will
talk about the campaign, and then he will assign J.D. and Mashburn tasks to do.
And then J.D. and | and Tera will meet to see where we are in terms of foreign
policy and outreach. And that was for the 2 weeks.

Now, | have a large network of outreach to media. It's my work, both
international and national. | asked Rick Dearborn, is there any conflict between
me outreaching to media and me being in that office? He said, yes, there is a
conflict, but let me ask how we're going to resolve that conflict. And | told him, it
needs to be resolved because my income comes from the media, and |
am -- that's -- that's why | am in the campaign, because | can speak to the media.

So we went back and forth, back and forth until the moment where he said,
it's going to be difficult. If you want to do media, we can't -- you can't be in an
executive branch here -- executive office. So told him, thank you. | gave him
my pass, and | left.

Q And how did that affect the surrogacy work that you did for the
campaign?

A | am still trying to figure it out now, but to the best of my recollection,
when | was within the office, the communication with the leadership in New York
was easier. | was part of that chain of command or communications.

When | left the office, that communication ceased. So | kept my initial

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following to see where the meeting will be. And, therefore, stay put. We'll tell
you when the meeting will happen and where.

MR. SCHIFF: And when did you have this conversation with J.D. Gordon?
Was it on the phone, in person, and when?

MR. PHARES: That was on the phone. That was on the phone.

Now, the best way for me to remember, because | did not take notes, it was
about 1 week before the so-called advisory board meeting with the candidate at
the Trump Tower under construction. So | could calculate that would be 1 week
before.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay.

MR. PHARES: He informed me of something else. He mentioned that
the New York campaign told him that a policy shop executive office, is going to be
opened in Washington in the Virginia side, and that would be in Alexandria, not far
from King Street. And then they requested that | would join that office.

So | asked him who is going to be the executive director of the office. And
he told me it's going to be Mr. Rick Dearborn, and that he is going to join.

| asked him, will other advisers named by the candidate will be joining. He
said, as far as he knows, it's only me, and they will see if others will join or not or if
they will go to New York.

So these were the conversations. | think it was more than one
conversation | had with Mr. Gordon before the meeting at the Trump Tower.

MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Gordon tell you whether you would become a paid
member of the staff or merely a volunteer adviser, or what capacity you would
serve?

MR. PHARES: No. His knowledge was that | will be as a volunteer. At

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A Thank you.
[Recess.]
aT
Q Allright. Thank you very much. I'm the | for the

minority side. I'm going to take over the questioning over here.

| wanted to start, you mentioned that you first met Mr. Papadopoulos, if I'm
correct, at the meeting with then Candidate Trump on March 31st, but that you
also may have received emails from Mr. Papadopoulos.

And if | can submit to you and also for the record an email that was sent
from Mr. Papadopoulos on March 24th, 2016.

[The information follows:]

sexe" COMMITTEE INSERT ****

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explain. The only time | initiated in Egypt was not about the campaign. | wanted
to discuss with the religious leader of Egypt how can we make the distinction
between extremism and other stuff.

So my answer to you is, I've heard from Mr. Kushner that the candidate,
Mr. Trump, doesn't want us, including me perhaps, to meet with governments and
then promise and then engage. That I've already known.

He emphasized in September, | know now why most likely, because of two
things. Number one, | went to Egypt. The Egyptians asked me. It reverberated
back to Bannon. And | spoke with Flynn. So they got together and they said,
what is Walid Phares doing there? One.

Two, there is another reason that Mr. Kushner mentioned, and | understand
that, is that not knowing that this was happening, | asked Ivanka if she likes the
idea of her going to the Middle East and meeting with women, with Muslim
women, because the image of our candidate was very negative, et cetera.

So she told him and he -- then that prompted the call. And he insisted,

Dr. Phares, you know, do not speak on behalf of the campaign. And | told him |
was not, | explained to him what was happening, and | won't.

Q Okay. Thank you.

We talked at length about Mr. Papadopoulos. And apologies if this was
covered, but | just want to make sure that we leave nothing on the table.

Can you describe, to the extent that you are aware, your knowledge of
Carter Page's activities and travel? Because, as has been publicly reported,
Carter Page traveled to Moscow during the campaign period, spoke at a university
publicly.

In testimony to this committee that has been released publicly, he

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know why he did not tell him firmly no.

Q And if | can just pick up on your mention about Mr. Papadopoulos’
activity with Steve Bannon in New York on Egypt, and apologies if | wasn't here for
that portion of your earlier testimony, what timeframe was it that you learned of
this?

A In September. It should have been in the month of
September 2016.

Q And this was during the United Nations General Assembly?

A Probably towards the end. Probably. I'm trying to recollect the best
I can.

Q And this was communications or activity or engagement between
Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Bannon that preceded September?

A That preceded the meeting between the candidate and Egyptian
President.

Q Which was on the margins of the U.N. General Assembly?

A Yes. When President Sisi came, he met with Clinton and met with
Trump. There was a whole effort that I've heard about later to prepare that
meeting, the same way when he prepared the meeting -- they prepared the
meeting with the Mexican President. So there was that effort.

What | didn't know at the time is that the team that was actually preparing
the minutia of the meeting were Mr. Bannon and Papadopoulos. | haven't heard
about Papadopoulos for many months, not what he was doing.

Q And how did you hear this?

A From the Egyptians.

Q From the Egyptians?

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(12:15 p.m.]
|

Q Right. So that's a second time you remember meeting with him.
Are there any other personal meetings that you recall with Mr. Papadopoulos?

A | don't recall, but there could have been phone calls, and of course,
there were emails.

Q And in any of your discussions, phone calls, or email exchanges with
Mr. Papadopoulos, do you remember him discussing the idea of setting up
contacts with Russia similar to what he raised at this March 31st meeting?

A Yes, | can answer clearly because there's an email, maybe more
than one email.

Now, let me preface by saying our campaign emails have been closed
about December, early January, so | don't have access to them, but | know all the
committees, everybody has them.

Q Right.

A So there are emails in those, and | think | have a couple of emails
that | do have, and I'll be happy to send to your committee about -- sent by Mr.
Papadopoulos whereby clearly he said. | would like -- | cannot paraphrase
because the email is not in front of me -- | would like to suggest to try to establish
contact with people who could get him, therefore, the campaign, in touch with
Russia.

Q And do you recall who else might have been on those emails?
Again, understanding you don't have them in front of you, so we're just asking
about what you recall sitting here today.

A The best of my recollection, since we are going to have the email,

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after the speech, you did not join them; is that correct?

A No, I did not. | was tasked actually to stay one more hour dealing
with the media and the foundations.

Q Okay. Thank you. Moving on to the July -- your joint European
Parliament congressional meeting. You mentioned earlier that you attended -- in
your written materials you stated that Dr. Clovis responded very firmly and clearly
that there will be no abandonment of NATO or over our European allies and no
deal with President Putin at the expense of U.S.-European relations.

Did you perceive him to be, or did he state that he was articulating the
position of the Trump campaign when he made that statement?

A Allright. | was seated here, and we had lawmakers here, then they
left, and then the delegation was -- the Trump foreign policy delegation was seated
there, and then all the Europeans were seated here. | want to paint a little bit how
the matter developed.

So the European lawmakers were asking very tough questions about the
Trump campaign views on NATO and on Russia, and their main points were: We
read a lot about the fact that your candidate is going to be closer to the Russians
and less close to NATO. To which Clovis responded what | have quoted here
that | can assure you, as someone who was in the U.S. military and who worked
during the Cold War and back in NATO, that our candidate and our campaign is
not going to do what you are saying it will do.

Now, having said that, do | have the knowledge of him expressing the high
level of the campaign narrative or not, | don't know, but he is higher than me. So
he had expressed exactly or maybe more than what I've quoted, but | have no way

to answer how high it was.

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or disseminate any emails?

A No, | did not, sir.

Q Did you personally conspire, collude, or coordinate with the Russians
to otherwise or in any way influence the outcome of the election?

A I did not.

Q Are you aware -- do you have any information that would
demonstrate that Candidate Trump colluded, coordinated, or conspired with the
Russians to hack or disseminate emails?

A | do not have such information.

Q Do you have any information that Candidate Trump colluded,
coordinated, or conspired with the Russians to otherwise influence the outcome of
the election?

A | don't have that information.

Q Do you have any information that anyone affiliated with the Trump
campaign, in whatever capacity, colluded, conspired, or coordinated with the
Russians to hack or disseminate emails?

A | don't have such information.

Q Do you have any information that anyone affiliated with the Trump
campaign, in whatever capacity, coordinated, colluded, or conspired with the
Russians to otherwise influence the outcome of the election?

A | don't have that information.

Q Allright. That's all we have for this round. Would you like to take a
brief break?

A I'd be happy, if 1 can.

Q Thank you.

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Q Right, but he was speaking as a campaign official or purporting to
make the -- articulated the position of the campaign rather than just his personal
views?

A Absolutely. He was -- | should say, yes, the best | can recollect, he
was speaking on behalf of the campaign. He told them: I'm speaking on behalf
of the campaign.

Q Now, Mr. Papadopoulos was also in attendance; is that right?

A Mr. Papadopoulos was, yes, seated next to Clovis.

Q Now, did he make any statements to the group about a Russia-U.S.
relations or U.S.-European relations regarding Russia that you recall?

A Allright. He did not speak in public during the exchange, no words,
but | can report one thing is that he came to others. He was whispering his
assessment of the response, and he came to me and said: | don't think what
Clovis said represents exactly what the position should be. And | found it very
normal because he has been, you know, promoting a different view.

Q And so, as you've described, Mr. Papadopoulos, perhaps, had a
different view than the one that Dr. Clovis had articulated. Did you perceive or
have any reason to believe that Mr. Papadopoulos’ view was that of anyone other
than himself?

A As far as | can remember it was his view, his opinion. | didn't hear it
from anyone else, as far as | can remember, except Mr. Page -- Dr. Page, but he
did not -- he was not as clear and dynamic as Mr. Papadopoulos.

Q So, also, in July, | believe, was the Republican National Convention
in Cleveland. Did you -- were you in Cleveland during the RNC?

A Yes, sir, | attended the whole conference -- convention.

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Mr. Bannon he may have been in touch with?

A | don't have any information or recollection of anything beyond what |
have mentioned.

Q Okay. Are you aware or were you aware of any other trips that
Mr. Papadopoulos made during his tenure -- or prior to the election of 2016, |
should say? | mentioned, for example, press reports indicate he traveled to
Israel.

A The same information that was published and then discussed among
Gordon, Tera Dahl, and myself, that's the extent of what I've learned about his
trips.

Q Okay. And anything about his relationship with Mr. Flynn? Were
you told that he may be in touch with or conversed with Mr. Flynn?

A At this point, | don't recall any information about Mr. Papadopoulos
interaction with General Flynn.

Q During the entire tenure until the end of the election?

A Yeah, throughout the entire.

Now, if | am shown, let's say, a group email where he mentioned | didn't
pay attention, | could confirm or infirm (ph). But my memory doesn't tell me any
matter about this issue.

Q Thank you for your help.

A Well, thank you.

oy
Q Thank you, Dr. Phares. Again, my name csi I'm

counsel with the majority side.

I notice in your written statement you said, quote, "| do not presently recall

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was after --

Q Subsequent to your trip to Egypt?

A Subsequent to my trip, yes, sir.

Q So just so we understand the exact timeline of events, you traveled
to Egypt. Was this on behalf of the campaign? On your own? Was there a
request to set up this meeting with the Egyptian President?

A So let me give you the chain. That could help us probably, if that's
helpful.

Q Please.

A So in September | traveled to Egypt. | was supposed to travel in
July, but in July | was in Europe. And | wanted -- it was initiated by me -- to meet
with the Minister of Religious Affairs -- it was published actually -- and the Deputy
Pope of the Copts, and to get information about the ideological,
counterradicalization, counterextremism. It was not on behalf of the campaign.
The only person who had to know was Dr. Clovis.

So | went there, not knowing what was happening actually here. While
there, | was informed by Egyptian officials -- of course, they know me because I've
traveled the year before, et cetera -- that there is something in preparation, but |
was asked, we're not sure about when this is going to happen and -- sorry.

Q Please.

A -- and if you can contact anybody in the campaign just to ensure that
this meeting is happening, et cetera, et cetera.

So | left Egypt. Back -- on the way back to London | had a seminar in
London. | communicated with General Flynn. | couldn't communicate with

anybody else at the beginning. And | tried to communicate with Bannon through

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Senator Sessions was not there; is that correct?

A No, he was not there.

Q Allright. So when -- | just want to focus on the meeting that you
attended with Dr. Page. Did the two of you discuss Russia, or do you recall him
discussing Russia with anyone?

A Actually we were sitting around the table, so there were no
personal -- | mean, dual discussions. It was a general discussion, and Mr. Page
mentioned that -- well, we asked him, because he was mentioning that he
has -- he travels to Russia, he has a business in Russia, he's a consultant, so that
was -- basically, we asked him what do you do in life, so -- and then there were
questions and answers with him about his assessment of Russia relations.

Let me go back 1 inch up and say: At that time, discussing international
relations and relations with Russia or China or anybody in the world, was not a
taboo. It was a normal matter. So the questions were: who, among you, has a
better expertise on what area of the world, that was the understanding.

Q Right. And other than this meeting in the convention, do you ever
recall interacting with Dr. Page in person?

A Yes, | did interact with him at the convention. We had side -- quick
discussions. But there was one time -- | can't recall the date, but | could do
tesearch to remember that date, was it before or after the convention where we
had a dinner, him and |. He was -- | was meeting -- here we go.

| was meeting with a few members of this team at the office of Mr. Attorney
Schmitz. Mr. Page was there. So we had that meeting, and then we left to the
mall and we had a dinner. So this was probably the meeting | can remember the

most where | spent time with him.

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HES Good morning. This is an unclassified transcribed interview
of Walid Phares.

Thank you for speaking with us today.

For the record, | am [EE 2 majority staff member of the House
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence.

Before we begin, | have a security reminder. | just want to make sure that
you and your counsel have left your electronics outside.

MR. SOCARRAS: Correct.

HS 2's0 want to state a few things for the record.

The questioning will be conducted by members and/or staff during the
allotted time period. Some questions may seem basic, but that is because we
need to clearly establish facts and understand the situation. Please do not
assume we know any facts you have previously disclosed as part of any other
investigation or review.

We ask that you give complete and fulsome replies to questions, based on
your best recollection. If a question is unclear or if you are uncertain in your
response, please let us know. And if you do not know the answer to a question or
cannot remember, simply say so.

During the course of this interview, we will take any breaks that you desire.

This interview is being transcribed. There is a reporter making a record of
these proceedings so we can easily consult a written compilation of your answers.

Because the reporter cannot record gestures, we ask that you answer
verbally. If you forget to do this, you might be reminded to do so. You may also

be asked to spell certain terms or unusual phrases.

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Yes, including when he was a manager -- co-chair.

A

Q Okay.

A And Rick Gates?

Q Yes.

A No, | never met -- | may have seen him, but | didn't recognize him,
who he was.

Q And were you ever made aware of any discussions about Paul
Manafort or Rick Gates or Roger Stone, for that matter, by others on the campaign
as it related to foreign policy?

A All right. So, number one, to the best of my recollection, | haven't
heard any conversation or been part of a conversation regarding Mr. Stone.

Regarding Mr. Manafort, number one, | saw his name in a trail of emails,
you know, Rick Dearborn, others in New York. And during those 2 weeks when |
served, | did. And even after those 2 weeks, in those DonaldTrump.com emails,
at times | will see his name, but | have not had a conversation about an ongoing
initiative he was taking. |! must have been excluded from it.

Q Okay. The same set of questions with regard to Stephen Miller.
You mentioned him briefly. If you can expand on what either your interaction was
with him or what your understanding was of his role on foreign policy matters?

A Okay. Stephen Miller, the best | can recollect was | saw him the first
time after | was appointed. | didn't know him before. The first time | was
appointed, we were also at that studio, TV studio, 400 North Capitol. He finished
his interview. | finished my interview. We were leaving the building, and he
came and shook my hand and he said, well, you are one of the advisers now.

And | told him, why don't we speak a little bit about the campaign. That was in the

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Q And then did you or anyone on your where behalf make any reply to
Mr. Shevchenko (ph) before there was a email from him to your assistant on the
19th?

A | don't recall, but | assume that she had answered him, and this is a
part of the conversation. Is that your question?

Q Well, | apologize if I'm not being clear.

A Please.

Q What you gave us -- and again, these are word reproductions, but is
an email from Mr. Shevchenko (ph) to you on December 13.

A To my website, yeah.

Q And then the next communication is an email from Mr. Shevchenko
(ph) addressing Rebecca (ph) on December 19th.

A Yes. Okay.

Q And so my question.is: Between December 13th and 19th, was
there any reply or communication from either you or from Rebecca to Mr.
Shevchenko (ph)?

A | can certainly check with Rebecca (ph) if she had answered in
between those two dates. | don't have any recall myself that | have responded.

Q And the 19th includes -- the email on the 19th addressed to Rebecca
(ph) reflects: We're doing a request. This time it's to arrange a meeting between
you and Alexi Skosyrev, S-k-o-s-y-r-e-v. Had you ever meet Alexi before?

A 1 don't remember, the best of my remembrance, | had met with him.

Q And between December 19th ‘and December 29th, did either you or
Rebecca (ph) make any reply or response to this offer?

A That, | can ask Rebecca (ph), because | am not aware of every detail

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Q Yeah, | just -- | apologize. | mean, we can come back to it, but I just
wanted to get through a few things.

So you don't have any direct interactions?

A Face-to-face with the Ambassador?

Q Right.

A | don't recall, and we've been asked by CNN that someone else said
that you had a meeting, and | said I don't recall. And | had three persons with me
wherever | moved, and they don't recall. Now, he could have been behind me
speaking with somebody else and somebody must have imagined, because if |
meet an Ambassador, | will say | met an Ambassador. Actually, | took many
pictures with other Ambassadors.

Q Do you recall seeing any direct one-on-one interactions between
Ambassador Kislyak and any Trump campaign personnel?

A | did not see myself, but | heard that others have spoken to him. So
that's the difference between me seeing at the convention and what I've heard
later.

Q And who do you recall hearing?

A Mr. Gordon actually mentioned that he had a very social moment.
They were eating, | guess, and then he reported this to us.

Q Anyone other than Mr. Gordon?

A 1 don't recall. | don't recall. | don't want to say Carter Page also
mentioned that, but | have a blank. | don't recall who else.

Q So quickly, in the time | have remaining, we just have a few standard
questions that we pretty much ask everybody.

Did you personally collude, conspire, coordinate with the Russians to hack

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[2:27 p.m.]
2

Q The reason why | go through this timeline is it was happening
concurrently with other campaign-related events, possibly interactions you may
have had with certain campaign officials, and what we are interested in knowing is
to what extent there may have been knowledge about these developments, to
what extent -- how these developments were viewed, and to what extent there was
use of the information that was hacked for campaign-related purposes.

So possibly to denigrate the other candidate, Hillary Clinton, to promote
certain themes about that candidate, to contrast that with then-Candidate Trump.

Given all this, we would be very interested in hearing, to the extent that you
may be aware of, how this was reverberating in the circles that you were involved
in.

A Thank you for the question. To the best of my recollection, first of
all, from all the information that you have mentioned | wasn't even following,
because my concerns were in different areas. But one thing | remember, when
candidate Trump made that statement calling on the Russians. And | don't know
how to analyze it, because I'm not a speechwriter. That | remember vividly, that
event.

| don't have a recollection that myself or the people with whom | worked we
had discussions, unless somebody mentioned it or said, look what's happening,
either on TV or in other form, on email. | don't have a recollection of that matter.

Q Okay, thank you. Are you aware of a trip that Donald Trump Jr. took
to Paris in, | believe it may have been -- | will get the exact date, but there was a

trip that Donald Trump Jr. made to Paris to speak in an event by a group named

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a hurry to come in, to engage, to probably have this picture, and then to go to
other meetings. That was my impression, because I've been with previous

; candidates in those setting of meetings. | don't think anyone except, | think, the
Senator where -- and where the candidate will come and then will have an
in-depth discussion of issues.

So | saw clearly this was different. That's my initial impression.

Now, when we -- when we -- when the last person here finished,

Mr. Sessions said, thank you all, and thank you, Mr. Candidate. And | think the
candidate may have said -- and | can't recall clearly -- something, the usual very
abstract. He didn't go to substance. You know, when he's not reading from a
text, he has abstract statements that he -- he made one of those abstract
statements.

MR. SCHIFF: And when Mr. Sessions commented after Papadopoulos
that this is not the time, we'll address that later, was it your sense that -- was he
cutting off Mr. Papadopoulos for going on too long and wanted to essentially move
on, or was he commenting in some way about the nature of what
Mr. Papadopoulos was proposing?

MR. PHARES: The best of my recollection, Congressman, is that he was
probably doing both. Mr. Papadopoulos was going on and on unusually, and
Senator Sessions wanted him to be -- to stop. But he didn't cut off anybody else.

So | imagine and project, to the best of my understanding, that he was not
comfortable with the subject. He was not comfortable that the subject was being
stretched to drag the candidate into discussion. That's the best of my

recollection.

Hive minutes, sir.

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So the joke was that -- looked at him, Mr. Trump -- since you appointed me,
| have been hit by my hostiles._ | have a lot of people who criticize my work. It
has nothing to do with the campaign. | publish and people who don't like
my -- what | say or what | write. | have been attacked many times. So the joke
was, | took away from you 20 percent of the attacks against you, 20 percent of the
attacks against you. So that was, | thought, was a joke, and they laughed.

The second point, | mentioned that | am focusing now on looking at the
greater Middle East, and I'll be happy to update the campaign on the ongoing four
wars that exist and on what could be good signs and bad signs coming from the
region.

That's as far as | can remember. Maybe it was longer, maybe it was
shorter. And then the gentlemen, most of the gentlemen next to me, they started
to each one express their views.

| remember from this side, I'm not sure if it was General Kellogg or Admiral
Kubic, they mentioned military readiness. So this is what | remember from the
first cycle, from the first raw material into my ear.

Because, frankly, | was more interested in looking at Mr. Trump, to be
honest -- that's reality, you are sitting with Donald Trump -- and than listening at
what the other members were talking about.

But | do remember that they mentioned military readiness, and one of the
two mentioned nuclear preparedness. Preparedness. Okay.

These are the items that | remember from this. They may have said more
than that, but this sticks to my head. And it went around all the way to, | think,
Gordon. Gordon spoke, as far as | can remember, about media and

communications. And, of course, I'm sure you want me to talk about

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HR Ore minute.

Hf | can yield back and maybe just have 1 minute to consult
with my --

HE), course. Why don't we take a couple minutes and circle
back.

[Recess.]

Hack on the record. Minority for 15 minutes.

oy

Q So | only have a few cleanup questions. This has to do with others
on the campaign. Did you have any interaction with Roger Stone during the
campaign?

A To the best of my recollection, none.

Q Did you know Roger Stone prior to joining the campaign?

A | haven't met him or spoken to him before.

Q Have you met or spoken to him since and, if so, did you discuss
matters related to the campaign?

A | haven't met or spoken to Mr. Stone since.

Q During your tenure on the campaign, did you interact with Paul
Manafort or Rick Gates at all?

A Let me begin with Manafort. From my recollection, | saw group
emails where his name was mentioned, but it wasn't a campaign email, so | cannot
talk to that. | met him -- no, | meant | saw him one time in the greeting room of a
TV station, 400 North Capitol. And | came to him and we shook hands and then
exchanged a couple words, and that was it. | didn't see him after that.

Q This is during the campaign period?

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Q So you talked extensively about his comments in your interactions
with him on March 31st. Can you just characterize any other interactions you had
with Mr. Papadopoulos thereafter, particularly with respect to Russia?

A What is the span of time? That would help me. Because there
were email exchanges and there were discussions. Do you want me -- | could
add both of them.

Q Well, let's start with the in-person meeting. So other than -- well, so
was -- did you know whether or not Mr. Papadopoulos lived in D.C.?

A That -- | got the information from him during that lunch, that he told
us that he was living in London, and it was another surprise. And he said he had
another house or residence in Chicago. So he was not in D.C.

Q Right. So he didn't live in D.C.?

A No.

Q Did you ever see him in the D.C. office?

A Oh, no. The best! can remember, he had -- | have never seen him
in the D.C. office, per se.

Q By which | mean the one in Alexandria.

A Alexandria. Yes, sir.

Q Right. So you saw him at this meeting. You never saw him in the
Alexandria office. What other times during the campaign do you recall seeing
Mr. Papadopoulos in person?

A The best | can recall was at least -- this is the best | can recall -- at
one of the lunches -- we used to call them pizza meetings, it was an Italian
place -- he was there. And that was the probably first and most important time

where we exchanged ideas and views.

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had any engagement with Mr. Papadopoulos after having read this email, and if
so, did it color in any way your views of Mr. Papadopoulos' role on the campaign,
why he was focused on Russia?

A Okay. To the best of how | remember, the first time | heard him
phonetically talking about Russia was at the March 31st. Then | started to read
this and other emails. And then when | heard him also after the meeting in that
restaurant, | started to have a perception of what is or what were his priorities.

Q How did that strike you?

A As | said earlier in the meeting, | realized that his priority was the file
of Russia, priority. | mean, you are a political scientist and you here somebody
talking about Malaysia four or five times, you know that he is -- he or she would be
interested in Malaysia. That's the example.

Q And | want to get to this period that you mentioned, the 2 weeks that
you were present as part of the foreign policy advisory team at the office in
Alexandria.

A Yes.

Q And then afterwards. But on the matter of Mr. Papadopoulos and
these emails, do you recall any conversations with other members of the foreign
policy advisory team who may have been on this email chain or were aware of the
email, how they perceived it, how it was discussed amongst them, whether it was
viewed as an asset or as a matter of concern?

A All the events between the moment we were appointed in the
Washington Post, all the way till about -- till about mid or late spring, we were
submitted to a river of emails and information and so many things to do, so | don't

have a recollection in terms of chronology. But what | have a recollection of is

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A From the Egyptian diplomats.

Q And can you share with us, to the extent that you're aware, what that
preparation meant in practice? So was there travel involved, phone calls,
meetings, papers produced that you may have learned about?

A The best of my recollection was that | spoke with a diplomat of the
Egyptian Embassy, with whom | will speak all the time and even from before the
campaign, and | asked him, how did that happen? How did the -- by curiosity.

So he said, well, Mr. Bannon and Mr. Papadopoulos traveled from New York to
Washington to the embassy, and they set all the details for such a meeting.

Q And this would have been in the weeks or a week or so -- | don't
know if you know the timeframe -- prior to the meeting?

A It should have been logically, because if they came to prepare for the
summit for that meeting, it should have been before.

Q And in learning of that, did you speak to anybody about that on the
campaign after the fact?

A | don't recall | spoke to anybody except one person, that's Tera Dahl.

Q Okay. After learning of that, did you learn of any other information
about Mr. Papadopoulos' role in potentially other meetings or on the campaign
more broadly during that period? So if | understand your testimony correctly,
there was a period until September where he may have dropped off at least your
radar screen?

A My radar.

Q He then comes back again on your radar screen through this
information you received from the Egyptians. After that, but prior to the election,

were you aware of any other role that he played or communications he had?

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attention of the other advisers there, but my ear heard that he mentioned Russia,
but nothing really practical intention.

MR. SCHIFF: When you said he said something along the lines of let me
see what | can do or put together, did you have the impression that he was
indicating that he was going to pursue his contacts with Russia on behalf of the
campaign?

MR. PHARES: As | told the Senate, | mean, that was -- that was not a
secret. | mean, him trying to say | have contacts was a conversation every time
he would see people for the little times we met him, he would mention that. And
he was not hiding. He said, you know, we could reach out and we could do this.
So that was what Mr. Papadopoulos was trying to bring to the table.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, you mentioned that you tried to separate your
recollection of the meeting from what it first was and then what it later became. Is
there something in particular that you saw in press reporting that gives you a
better understanding what took place in the meeting? Is there something else
you wanted to add with respect to that?

MR. PHARES: Congressman, for that meeting, | think, personally, | think,
meaning the best way | can recollect, is that the reporting about the meeting at
some point was bigger than the actual meeting. That's my modest recollection of
it.

| cannot report on what individuals told individuals around. | mean, this is a
group of at least seven, plus another eight. So the conversations that took place,
that | could not capture that, | cannot testify to. So | did my best to mention to you
that when we went to the restaurant, the name, the term "Russia" was used.

MR. SCHIFF: After the meeting in the restaurant, what was the next

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actually meet and speak and go on TV. And there is one quote here, "He is good
on TV," but not go beyond that.

Q Understood.

A Okay. Then | had two conversations, one was with Mr. Jared
Kushner at one point in July where -- July or maybe end of June or July, | don't
recall, before the convention -- where he said, when you speak with diplomats, do
not commit -- do not commit on behalf of the campaign.

And | told him, | have a long experience, and I've met with diplomats before
even the campaign. When | meet with them, it's basically to explain what the
agenda is, what the platform is, and explain it via TV and then when they request
to meet with me and they asked me specifically about one, two, three, | respond.
| do not commit with them and discuss future matters. And he was okay.

Then a second wave came in September, and now | see the disconnected
information that | did not have. What they didn't know was that | was not going on
behalf of the campaign. And you can read from the email that some governments
or some diplomats told them, oh, what is Walid Phares saying?

It means those governments or those diplomats or maybe people who may
dislike me told them, Phares is speaking on your behalf. And | was very strict in
my discourse that I'm not speaking on any behalf. Actually | published posts
about my trips saying this is private, this is not on behalf.

So probably -- | don't understand how that happened. Flynn reported to
Jared and Ivanka reported to Jared, so Jared called me.

Q And that is the phone call that appears --

A At the end.

Q -- Mr. Kushner appears to acknowledge --

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MR. PHARES: No, no. The co-chair. | just blanked.

MR. SCHIFF: J.D. Gordon?

MR. PHARES: No, higher. | blanked on his name.

HE, Sam Clovis?

MR. PHARES: Sam Clovis, thank you. | blank on names sometimes.

MR. SCHIFF: Trying to figure out who were doctors here.

MR. PHARES: Yeah, he's a doctor in government affairs.

So she asked me to meet with him. I'm going to fly to Washington, D.C.,
and then I'm going to be signing a nondisclosure agreements, which campaigns
do. So that was the first time | met with Sam Clovis.

MR. SCHIFF: And when would that have been?

MR. PHARES: That would have been after | consented, as far as | can
remember, and before my name was released.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay.

MR. PHARES: And he made me sign a nondisclosure agreement, NDA.
And then | asked him, are you signing up other members? He said, yes, you will
know later.

MR. SCHIFF: And where did you meet him?

MR. PHARES: At the hotel in the Virginia side. | don't remember exactly
where, but | could remember and supply you with that.

MR. SCHIFF: In Alexandria?

MR. PHARES: Yes. | should not say yes very quickly. | could get the
name of that hotel or at least the area of that hotel.

MR. SCHIFF: Oh, it's a hotel?

MR. PHARES: It's a hotel, yes, sir.

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A To the best of my recollection -- and let's keep in mind that it was so
intense, we were under the pressure of a lot of information coming in -- | don't
recall who informed me, but what I've learned is that he was in connection with
Mr. Bannon to work on Orthodox communities in America.

Q You mean Orthodox Christian?

Christian Orthodox communities.
Any idea what that means in practice?
It -- that's -- now, I'm explaining, so --

No. No. Or what it meant in practice.

> OO F DOD PY

Oh.

Q Like, what was this proposal? If you could flesh out, to the extent
that you're aware?

A Well, the one sentence that I've learned was something like, not
exactly the words, that George now is working with New York traveling to the
inlands, to various places, to —-

Q You mean within the United States?

A Within the United States, hinterland, to work with or on American
Orthodox. What would that mean, American Orthodox? Greeks, Slavs, Arab

Orthodox, from these communities, for their votes.

Hr minute.
a

Q For a get-out-the-vote campaign of some kind?
A That's correct.
Q Anything else that you became aware of regarding

Mr. Papadopoulos' relationship with those in New York, specific individuals beyond

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Q Can you describe the 2-week period that you mentioned where you
were physically located? Who was in the office? How was it structured? What
was the purpose of the work? And then, ultimately, why did you end up leaving
that office or doing your work from elsewhere, however you want to characterize
it?

A Okay. So to the best of my recollection, | got two conversations
about joining this office. The direct conversation | had was with J.D. Gordon, who
seemed to be somewhat tasked by -- he didn't tell me who -- but tasked by some
authority to form that team and to invite us to go there. So that was one
conversation.

The other conversation, which was very brief, was Mr. Jared Kushner,
because | conversed with him on the phone. And he had even told me before
Mr. Gordon that there is going to be an office. We're thinking about having an
office in Washington. Why don't you join that office? Because | was making my
activities from my own office.

So these were the two requests or the two connections for me to head to
the office. So | made a decision, okay, let me try to see what would that be to
work in an office, organized office.

So | went there. The office, first of all, had codes and had cards, not
everybody could go in, how do you call them, the security cards, and they were
only given to individuals who were authorized. Which means out of this whole
group, only Mr. Gordon and myself had the cards to go in. The other members
were not allowed to go in.

Then there were the staff. The staff was, on the top, Rick Dearborn; below

him, John Mashburn; and then below the two of them, one line was J.D., one line

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MR. SCHIFF: Is it fair to say that your discussion with him vis-a-vis Russia
was peripheral to the discussion?

MR. PHARES: It was peripheral to the discussion, yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Any other light you can shed on then-candidate Trump's
views on Russia as expressed in that meeting?

MR. PHARES: Not that | can remember about Russia in general. The
only mention was Russia on the coast of Syria and where they are deployed.
That's what | can remember from that discussion.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, you mentioned a secretary. Was that Rhona Graff?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir, it was her.

MR. SCHIFF: And is she the one who reached out to you to set up the
meeting?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir, she was the one.

MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned in February you had your next contact with
the campaign when they reached out to you to see if you would be an adviser to
the campaign?

MR. PHARES: As far as | can recall, it was about mid- to end of February.
During that time, they reached out to me to see if | am willing to give my name as
one of the five named -- one of the named. | didn't know how many would there
be.

MR. SCHIFF: And at mid-March, you got back to them to say that you
would?

MR. PHARES: | don't remember clearly the date, but | can imagine that it
was about 1 week to 10 days before he actually released the names. So that

would be around that time.

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interacted. That would also include Tunisians, Egyptians, all the
way -- Bangladeshi, Indonesia. So it is a comprehensive list.

Q | was going to say, | tried to keep count in my head as you were
going through, and | lost count pretty quickly.

A My head -- that is why | am so tired, | always feel so tired because of
all these --

Q Early mornings and late nights?

A That's right, sir.

Q Okay. That's all | have, so | will yield.

A Thank you, sir.

Ya

Q Thank you.

So | think we've covered any knowledge you may have had about
Papadopoulos' international trips and contacts with campaign officials, including
Mr. Bannon. Anything else that you may recall on those two subjects?

| ask in light of what you mentioned about Mr. Clovis seeking to have
campaign surrogates join Mr. Papadopoulos. Are you aware of any other --

A Other surrogates?

Q -- any other surrogates that may have joined him on some trips?

A Any other surrogates joining him on some trips, | don't recall. And |
don't remember if | even knew then if -- you know, meaning going with George to
those places.

As far as Mr. Papadopoulos speaking to other advisers or surrogates about

his plans, | don't have direct information, but | surmise that he must have spoken

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early -- the early time, probably end of March or early April. And then | haven't
seen him or engaged with him.

But during the 2 weeks when | was at the office, he was actively engaged
with us, with Rick Dearborn and us on email, mostly the campaign email, but at
some time | saw his name in the private email. And it was about assessing items,
various items. The one | can remember was he would send us portions of foreign
policy speech or statement to be made, and each one of us in their field if we have
any input. So we had that.

Q And the circumstances surrounding the meeting with the Egyptian
President in late September of 2016, you mentioned Mr. Bannon, George
Papadopoulos, Mr. Flynn being involved. Are you aware of Stephen Miller's
involvement in that respect and possible interaction with Mr. Papadopoulos as part
of that?

A | don't have a recollection about Mr. Miller being in that phase, the
chapter of dealing with Egypt. | don't recollect. But | may be wrong if | see
documents.

Q These are also part of our standard questions. But were you ever
made aware of what has been publicly reported since, a meeting that Donald
Trump Jr., Paul Manafort, and Jared Kushner had with a delegation from Russia
that was led by a lawyer named Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Tower?

A To the best of my recollection, | had no information about that
meeting.

Q Okay. We spoke briefly about this quote by President Trump where
he was addressing Russia publicly about Hillary Clinton's emails. There has been

other reporting about other purported efforts to secure either lost or stolen material

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A Now this is your question? Now you're --

Q No. No. Now -- yeah. I'm going to the -- I'm just walking through
the emails.

A Okay.

Q So 23874, the same page.

A Okay.

Q If you just go up a tiny bit you'll see Steve Bannon responding. He
says, "Agree 1000 percent."

And then you have to go to the preceding page, and you have to keep
going to the preceding page before that.

Mr. Mike Flynn writes, "Shut him down. He is not a good spokesperson
and he should not speak as though he is talking for DT.". DT being Trump.
“Completely agree."

And then right above that, Mr. Kushner writes, "Rick," addressing Rick
Dearborn, "| would explain that he is an advisor and not a diplomatic and we would
appreciate him keeping you abreast of his communications before he has them
and get approval before speaking with foreign governments or their
representatives."

Rick Dearborn, right above that, responds and says, "| can reach out to him
and deliver that message. He left on good terms."

And then if you go to the preceding page; this would be 23871, Mike Flynn
writes, "Rick, jumping in here again. Thank him and let him know the team in
New York City will handle all the diplomatic contacts unless otherwise directed.
He means well, but he clearly needs to keep things much more discreet."

Jared Kushner then writes, this is all on September 19th, 2016, "Spoke with

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Q And when you had these discussions or this one discussion that you
recall with Mr. Gordon about what various campaign surrogates were doing,
including Papadopoulos, do you recall whether or not you had read this particular
email, and did this email come up at all?

A The best of my recollection is that, by that time, | had been aware,
including reading this email and also hearing from others, that this is what Mr.
Papadopoulos is interested in, and Mr. Gordon smiled, meaning this is not what
Mr. Gordon was interested in, meaning -- | have to describe it the best we can
hear, that yes, yes, Mr. Papadopoulos wants to do that, but it's not taken seriously.
That's my impression at the time, but by the people at the meeting. | have no
knowledge of any other persons.

Q The reason | ask is because there's language in this email that is
very suggestive -- the reason | ask is because there's language in this email that is
very suggestive. A, it suggests that he has a clear conduit to the Russian
leadership, including possibly to the Russian President, and that he was meeting
to discuss specifically the meeting between -- a meeting between Mr. Trump and
Mr. Putin.

But as | understand from your testimony today, those facts were not
specifically discussed, did not raise -- were not specifically discussed as part of
conversations that either you had or that you were aware of, and therefore, you
may not be aware of any reaction to those very specific elements of that
correspondence.

A As far as | can recall, this email, the other emails, and whatever Mr.
Papadopoulos have said and we heard, as far as | can recall, | have not heard

from much higher levels anything to ask us about them or how do we evaluate this

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the London Academy of Diplomacy who introduced me to both Putin's
niece" -- here he's speaking about the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, and the
Russian Ambassador in London, who also acts as the deputy foreign minister.

The topic of the lunch was to arrange a meeting between us and the
Russian leadership to discuss U.S.-Russia ties under President Trump. They are
keen to host is in a quote "mutual" end quote city or directly in Moscow. They
said the leadership, including Putin, is ready to meet with us, and Mr. Trump
should be there -- or should there be interest. We need for everyone's thoughts in
moving forward with this very important issue.

“Furthermore, Mifsud is good friends with the soon-to-be next Prime
Minister of Vietnam. He asked for me to join him on a trip there to meet with the
next leader. Perhaps this is of interest to the rest of the campaign team as well."

So the first question | just have is, you mentioned that you may have
records in your own personal email from George Papadopoulos. Do you believe
this may be one of them?

A 1 do know this is one of them.

Q Okay.

A That's the one | was mentioning.

Q Okay. Very good. Very helpful. You mentioned that you'd be
willing to produce those to the committee.

A | would be willing to produce it to the committee.

Q Yes. Great. So it would be very helpful if there are -- this or any
other emails that would have been from or would have included on the "cc" line or
mentions Mr. Papadopoulos, or Carter Page, for that matter, would be very helpful

to have.

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[The information follows:]

wenn INSERT 1-1 there

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and we were in the front row of the VIPs, and then two rows that were reserved.
They were empty.

Then at one point, those rows were filled by people coming from the right.
I'm just giving you the details. So | recognized maybe one or two persons from
the National Interest Review, but | did not recognize that the Russian Ambassador
was in the front.

Rick Dearborn was in the front. | think Senator Sessions was in the front,
and then near the podium from the back came at least two persons | could
remember. One was Mr. Jared Kushner, he was there, came from the back, and
another individual, | cannot remember who it was. Then the Ambassador -- the
American Ambassador came, introduced Mr. Trump, then Mr. Trump came and
delivered his speech.

After he delivered his speech, the two front rows left, and we were left with
the media to deal with them. So that's the best description | can remember.

Q Right. And understanding that you didn't know who Ambassador
Kislyak was at that time, now that you -- once you later learned who he was and
what he looked like, do you recall him being -- do you recall seeing him there, or is
that only due to reporting?

A Let me say this: It is very difficult to make a statement, but I'll make
one. So once you see him in front of you or on TV, and you know who he was,
then your memory is going to tell you, well, he was in the front row. So I'm going
to tell you that my memory now tells me that it's very possible that he was one of
the persons in the front row, but | cannot confirm that. That would be using the
memory of after the event to go back and visit the event.

Q Understood. And when the front rows went wherever they went

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two times until it settled to what it is now in the Republican platform, what it was
then when he spoke to us. And he mentioned that to us when we were at the
convention. He said: Oh, my goodness, what a headache, you know, we had all
these back and forth, and then it was settled.

Q Anything else you recall about that issue from the time, as opposed
to what you learned later?

A | don't recall anything other than that conversation that he had with
us about that specific issue of Ukraine.

Q Now, when you were at the convention, did you -- did you attend the
same event that Ambassador Kislyak also attended?

A | did.

Q And what was that?

A That was a panel organized by the State Department and the
Heritage Foundation. | don't have the actual date in front of me, but we could get
that date. It's publicized. Whereby there were two panels, one in the morning,
one in the afternoon, and a lunch at noon, and there were about, according to the
sources, there are 50 to more diplomats, including Ambassadors, and the Russian
Ambassador, accordingly, was there.

The panel of the morning included J.D. Gordon. Then there was a lunch
and a keynote speaker. That would be Senator Sessions. Then alunch. Then
the afternoon panel, which | was part of and KT McFarland was part of, and the
gentleman from the Heritage Foundation was | think the moderator.

Q So it was a fairly large event panel. Did you have any direct
one-on-one interactions with Ambassador Kislyak?

A Oh, no. Let me explain, though, unless you have another question.

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want the menu --

Q Yes.

A -- | could go and back.

So from this hemisphere: Colombia, Argentina, ambassador, ambassador,
deputy foreign minister of Argentina. Moving to Europe: Spain, Britain, France,
Denmark, Nomay, Italy, and then Czech Republic, Estonia.

And I'm mentioning here, but, of course, when | went to Europe there were
dozens of members of Parliament.

Q Of course.

A So pretty much a large number of European Parliament. And I'm
the co-secretary general of a legislative organization that has members from 27,
so it would be a very exhaustive list.

Q And would you classify each of those contacts you just laid out as in
your role as an adviser to the campaign?

A | want to make a distinction here. Thank you for the question.

Q By all means.

A As a secretary general of the transatlantic group, it is my mission to
engage with all these lawmakers. But there were some diplomats that we can get
a list from, my assistant, who made a request to meet me as a foreign policy
adviser but in the United States.

And, for example, diplomats from South Korea, from Taiwan, from Japan,
from Tunisia, during the campaign made an appointment with me to speak to me
as a foreign policy adviser in Washington, D.C. So could get you the list of
those who requested that meeting.

And then | could get you the most comprehensive list with whom |

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that time, | was a volunteer and he was a volunteer, and everybody serving in that
office at that time were volunteers.

MR. SCHIFF: And would the policy shop in Alexandria, led by Mr.
Dearborn, would that be focused on national security, foreign policy issues?

MR. PHARES: | asked him the question, and | got the answer slice after
slice.

So one part of that entire office, one side will be policy in general -- that
includes national policy, legislations, relations with Congress, and there were
individuals in charge of that task -- and then foreign policy and national security.

And once we met -- and you could ask me, please, about the details -- once
we met the first time with Mr. Rick Dearborn, he assigned several tasks to several
people. Mr. Gordon was assigned national security. | was assigned foreign
policy. Mr. Mashburn, John Mashburn, if I'm not wrong on the name, was
assigned domestic policy. There was another gentleman -- | forgot the
name -- who was assigned relationship with Congress.

So multiple desks. And there were other staffers with us as well. Only
one staffer was also assigned foreign policy, but specifically diplomatic relations.
And that's Tera Dahl, D-a-h-l.

So that was the structure of the office.

Let me add for your knowledge that there was another side to the office
where there was another team, which we didn't know and we'd never been to the
other side, who were in charge of dealing with elections, with delegates, with this
whole operation.

MR. SCHIFF: Was Mr. Manafort part of that?

MR. PHARES: We were told that they respond to Mr. Manafort, but | have

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HS“ his would have been after March 21st when your name,
along with Mr. Papadopoulos’ name was mentioned by Candidate Trump to the
Washington Post. That was on March 21st, 2016. And the meeting with then
Candidate Trump was on March 31st, 2016.

HR, S's there a Bates number associated with that email?

MEM. es. The Bates number is DJTFP00010111, as well as the
next page, which is 112.

If | can point you to the second page?

MR. PHARES: | need glasses.
HE, you have another extra copy for us as well?

HS Give me one second.
’ aT

Q If | can point you to the second page.

A Okay.

Q So the second page, which is written by Mr. Papadopoulos on
March 24, 2016, was written to several members of what appear to be the foreign
policy advisory team, including Carter Page, Sam Clovis, Keith Kellog, Berg
Mizusawa, Chuck Kubic, Joseph Schmitz, and then MM which |
believe is your email; is that correct?

A That's correct.

Q And Michael Glassner, and the title of email is: "Meeting with
Russian Leadership, including Putin.”

And Mr. George Papadopoulos writes: "Good morning. | just finished a

very productive lunch with a good friend of mine. Joseph Mifsud, the director of

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therefore, | ended my term with them.

Between the Romney campaign and the Trump campaign, | have been at
times advising Members of Congress on issues related to the Middle East and
engaged also with Members of Congress and members of the European
Parliament caucus that deals with transatlantic security.

In the fall of 2015, since | was an adviser to a previous candidate, a number
of campaigns requested my expertise, including, in the report that | have
submitted, the Governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, Dr. Ben Carson.

The last candidate that basically requested -- who requested a meeting with
me was Mr. Donald Trump. That was in mid-December of 2015. | met him in
New York at the Tower. It was my first visit to the Tower, the first time | met him.
And we had a discussion of about 1 hour and 40 minutes, as a result of which he
asked me to stay in touch and provide him with insight on the region if and when
needed.

We stayed indirectly in touch, via his secretary, throughout January and
about mid-February. As far as | can recall, at the end of February, | was
contacted by his office to see if I'm willing to serve as one of his announced
advisers.

And | remember that in March, about mid-March, | have given my consent.
And he announced me during a visit that he had to The Washington Post as one of
the five named advisers.

Then they added more advisers throughout the campaign.

MR. SCHIFF: Before you go on, let me just go back over some of the
events that you discussed.

So in December 2015, when you met with Mr. Trump, was that the first time

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interest in that trip.

Q Why was that?

A Because of my perception of Mr. Papadopoulos. Now we know, of
course, this happened 1 year later, but | was not comfortable, first of all, to go to
Russia because of what I've explained. My position is, I'm not going to be
welcome in Russia. ,

Second is, | didn't know what kind of relations he had with Israel, with
Egypt, with Cyprus. And when I'm not aware and | don't know what it is and |
cannot confirm, | don't go. | don't engage.

Now, the issue of the emails, obviously, | learned about it from when the
investigation started. And | tried to recall in any meeting or even emails that the
campaign had or members of the campaign, if | can recall him mentioning either
dirt or email. My memory doesn't tell me that | recall any of that package of
emails and dirt.

Q So this would include conversations that may have happened during
your time prior to the election as well as any conversations you have had since?

A I'm trying to remember if -- when the Papadopoulos issue started to
be in the media, then, of course, | started to learn more and we started to ask
around. But we did not get more than what the statement -- this statement and
the media has uncovered. | don't recall. | don't recall this --

Q But even following the publication of this statement of the offense
and any conversations you may have had, to your --

A With members of the campaign?

Q Right. To your knowledge, have you spoken to anybody that may

have evinced prior knowledge of the information that's in here?

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MR. SCHIFF: And was there any other discussion during that meeting of
U.S.-Russia relations or contacts with Russia?

MR. PHARES: During that meeting?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: No. Once the -- no, meaning as far as | can remember.
When this gentleman ended, Sessions thanked everybody, Mr. Trump, thanks
again, and everybody stood up and then withdrew.

If your question is, were there discussions about Russia after the meeting,
then | have a different answer. Would you like that?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes, | would.

MR. PHARES: Okay. Then everybody was to be introduced to
everybody. It was chaos inside the room. And then we were evacuated out of
the room. So the candidate and his team left.

And | think it was J.D. or maybe Joe Schmitz who said, okay, guys why
don't we go across the street, there is a restaurant, and then we will get to know
each other, because we didn't know each other, and keep the discussion.

So we went there, and there we had discussions. So each one of the
advisers, named advisers will tell the others about what they are doing. But it was
loud, it was waiters coming, ordering. So it was not a significant sit-down.

But | remember that Mr. Papadopoulos during that lunch and screening,
everybody else was talking about what's their interest, he mentioned then Russia.
He said he was excited that he was able to meet with the candidate and throw the
first idea, and then he mentioned Russia.

Now, do | recall every word he mentioned? 1 do not. But he went back to

Russia and said, let's see what | can do and et cetera. He did not get the

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Q So the statement, "I'm so sorry to hear about the expulsion of your
diplomats today," was something she developed on her own initiative rather than a
statement or a sentiment that you directed her to convey?

A Yes, clearly.

Q Is that also true for the statement, "It is my fervent hope that tensions
between our two nations will relax after January 20th"?

A That's correct. That's Rebecca's (ph) statement and email. And |
was actually not very comfortable with it, but she had the discretion to delay and
delay, so she used that terminology.

HE Tine.

Thank you.

MR. PHARES: Thank you.

TH, you need to take a break, or are you okay to keep going?
MR. PHARES: | am good. | am good.

Ya

Q Thank you.

| just actually would like first to circle back to Mr. Papadopoulos very quickly
just so | exhaust those questions and we can move forward.

Were you able to read the guilty plea that Mr. Papadopoulos pled to and
was filed with the District Court for the District of Columbia in October of 2017?

A | read portions of it. If you need me to comment on any specific, I'll

be happy to read.

Q Sure. Let me read an excerpt very briefly. And the questions
relate to your potential knowledge about that information, but also any knowledge

you may have had from hearing or discussing with others on the campaign.

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and at his request.

Q So you mentioned, in the written materials, that you discussed the
situation in Syria, and of course, this is -- Syria is the location where there is an
intersection between your expertise in the Middle East and U.S.-Russia relations,
since both the United States and Russia have been deeply involved in the conflict
in Syria.

I'm curious whether there was any discussion at this lunch of the, | believe
then pending and Egypt-sponsored UN resolution regarding Israeli settlement?

A At that meeting?

Q At that meeting.

A | don't have any recollection of that subject being discussed at that
meeting.

Q With the Russians or with anyone?

A With the Russians or the Arabs, that's true.

Q And you are a -- you have some expertise in Egypt; | believe traveled
there at some point during the campaign.

Did you have any role whatsoever in President-elect Trump's interactions
with the Egyptians regarding the December 2016 UN resolution on Israeli
settlements?

A From November 9 onward, to now, | have had no communications,
neither with the transition team, nor with the administration, except, within the
transition team, the media person, Bryan Lanza was in touch with us because we
were in a transition ourselves, the former advisers, he would tell us, for example,
that when you make those statements, although you are former advisers and you

are not in the transition, keep in mind, basically, that if you would be asked to

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other people. So when you see that picture, this is not just the people who were
in the room. There were many people standing around or sitting around.

And as far as | can remember, there were pictures taken from a person
here, and then some other person stood up there on a chair and took more
pictures. | just happened to be -- because in the media you see the angles,
maybe they're important. So there may be other pictures of the meeting, that was
my point.

And then the persons who are here, | would assume they were from the
campaign coming from New York. | recognized one person because she
introduced herself to me, and that's Ms. Hope. Full name --

MR. SCHIFF: Hope Hicks?

MR. PHARES: Hope Hicks, yes, sir.

And one of the persons shook my hand, but -- | think one was Mr. Rick
Dearborn, was also present at that meeting. The others, | don't recall who they
were.

Oh, one person, so | can be completely clear here. The gentleman here is
one of the vice presidents of the Heritage Foundation. | don't recall his -- he's a
friend, and I'm sorry, I'm blanking on his name, but we could -- he was in the
transition as well. It's terrible with names with me.

So this is the scenario of how we entered and we sat. So Senator
Sessions was the first -- so the candidate came in, and then he sat and looked at
everybody. And | was -- | happened to be the immediate person next to him. It
was intimidating and impressive.

So Senator Sessions was the one who opened, said, well, thank you,

candidate -- Mr. Trump, for coming and let me introduce you to the individuals

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would be a number of persons on -- not all of them, a few of them, and Dr. Clovis.

Q And when you received these emails or were made aware of these
efforts by Mr. Papadopoulos to broker meetings with the Russians, what was your
response?

A As emails will show, none. And | have to also preface that, because
in one of the short conversations, | don't recall when, but Mr. Papadopoulos knew
about my work. | have published 12 books, so it's not | have to convince him, and
many articles and would see me on TV probably before the campaign and during
the campaign.

| was pushing back against Russia because of the Middle East. | didn't
interfere in the Russia-U.S. opinion making, but in the Middle East, Russia was
backing Iran and the Assad regime, and | am one of the voices that pushes
against that.

So | do project, not sure, that him not approaching me a lot on this issue
has to do with my public statement. He did have a conversation, though, but it
was not relentless on this issue. So, | think, when you read the email, you could
see who he sent that email to and you could see what was the interaction by
others.

Q What, if anything, do you recall of the response of others on the
campaign, particularly in more senior positions, to these efforts by Mr.
Papadopoulos?

A Now, again, here, you're going to have my recollection and what was
there in the media from all the research, so I'm going to try to merge both the best
I can.

From what | remember, without statements made to the media, is that there

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A Yes.

Q Thank you very much.

Now that you see this email, do you recall receiving and reading this email
at the time?

A Let me explain it, because | saw it -- | was planning on explaining
this email.

You know, on AOL, if you receive emails, they stay dark thick if you don't
open them, and they would become clear when you actually open them. This is
an email that | read way after | received it. So it was because we were receiving
emails and emails, and that was one among them, and there are others as well.

But when | went back and read it, | realized that he had sent it before, but of
course, now, | know that he had sent the email.

Q Do you know, roughly, when you would have read it and opened it
for the first time?

A It should have been within weeks, but | don't remember exactly
when.

Q But, presumably, after the meeting with the Candidate on March
31st?

A After March, yes.

Q And after your -- so that would also be after the lunch that you
mentioned after the meeting with the Candidate where you discussed --

A In the best of my recollection, it should have been because had |
read all that email before, of course | would have seen him in a different lens. But
these are all the best | can recollect, of course.

Q Okay. Did you -- do you recollect -- do you recall whether or not you

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Mr. Papadopoulos.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes, please.

MR. PHARES: Okay. What! can remember from what Mr. Papadopoulos
was saying -- and my attention was very low, as | said -- it was Russia and the
United States. There is no doubt about the two terms were there.

And the next term | remember was, | could -- | could either do something or
reach. But that's what he meant. | don't remember the actual words of English,
but that's what he actually meant, that | could do, | know, |. And then he said, the
third item | remember, relations could be fixed. This is the fragments of what |
remember.

Now, because there has been so much media and so much hearings and et
cetera, there are fuller sentences that were used later. And I've been
asked -- and I've never been on the media, by the way, never -- about the whole
issue of investigation, but that's what | remember about Mr. Papadopoulos'
Statement. | don't remember about the statements of the other three gentlemen.

Then | can say a few words about the candidate himself.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. Before we leave Mr. Papadopoulos, obviously, what
he said during the meeting has been the subject of a lot of press coverage since.
Did that coverage refresh your recollection at all to the particulars of what he said?

MR. PHARES: That's a great question, Congressman. Some of the
coverage refreshed a little bit, some of the statements that were made ringed into
my brain that this could have been what he had said. It goes along what | was
hearing.

Unfortunately, my first hearing was not -- my first reception of the words

was not. But it's like a line, you could put a word and a word and a word.

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told them I'm not here on an official mission, but | can make that phone call and

email to Flynn and the rest.

HE Ore ninute,
a

Q And in your conversation with Mr. Flynn, was there any indication
that Mr. Flynn was aware of Mr. Papadopoulos' role?

A That's a good question, if | may say, because to the best of my
understanding, until now | don't know who was communicating with who in
New York because | haven't been to New York to their headquarters.

But now | can connect, like you would be able to, that my conversation with
Flynn was general -- they're coming, they're upset, they don't know anything, what
can you do? And he said, I'll take it from here with the team.

What that meant, and | learned it from Tera Dahl later, is that they spoke
about it among themselves. And that would include probably Flynn and Bannon.

HE That's time.

HE) Okay. We'll continue this after. Thank you.

H,—«0 you need a break or anything?

MR. PHARES: | am good so far, unless you need a break.

HS | am good.

Fifteen more minutes.
oY
Q So the rest of this email that we were discussing until now, there is a
chain of emails that begins with lvanka Trump, the person who you addressed,
forwarding your email to her husband --

A Uh-huh.

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Q So that's -- by my count, that's three personal interactions with him
that you recall?

A These are the ones | recall.

Q And, again, | want to set aside the exchange of views with respect to
foreign policy topics, including Russia, but do you ever recall him seeking to broker
meetings or contacts with Russians on behalf of the campaign either him
expressing that in person or via email or via phone?

A Let me begin with, the clearest one is email. | have potential
memory that tells me that he may have mentioned Russia related matter in email.

Now, the issue is -- the campaign emails are not with me, but | if see them, |
could confirm them, and I'm not sure | have a private email with him on this issue.
All | can remember on email, that maybe during a discussion, a group discussion
he had mentioned it, but very limited.

In actual discussions that we had, he brought about the issue of, again,
relations between the U.S. and Russia can be fixed. That's the general theme,
that he travels to Russia professionally.

Q And was he saying -- did you understand him to be saying
relationships between Russia and the United States can be fixed if we adopt a
certain policy or that he was proposing to be involved in fixing them himself or
some sort of personal interactions?

A He did not suggest it to the advisers around him because they are
powerless in having him do anything, but he was speaking as an expert on Russia.
It's almost like Mr. Papadopoulos, but he was saying that it would be better if we
can fix our relationship with Russia.

Q Do you recall any -- are you aware of any direct interactions between

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communications directly with New York when needed and directly with
J.D. Gordon to inform me about -- the same way he informed the other advisers.
| was pretty much on my own in my office.

Q And during that time period, could you describe to us the
constellation of individuals who were part of the core nucleus in New York?

A When | was in that office?

Q Yeah. You mentioned there were direct communications to
New York?

A To the best of my recollection, it's Rick Dearborn who was really the
guy who controlled the office. He was the only one who wanted to be and was in
communication with New York, not the other individual. It was pretty tight.

So he was in touch in New York principally with Steven Miller, the
speechwriter. It was the most back and forth. And sometimes Mr. Miller would
send a group email including Rick Dearborn and all of us on contents, not on
operational matters. For example, he will send us a request, what do you think
we should include in a statement on this or other subject?

Then there were other names that | don't remember from New York. Then
there was also Hope Hicks. She was part of that hierarchy. And at one
point -- multiple points -- Mr. Dearborn was in touch with Mr. Manafort when he
was the co -- the manager or the executive director of the campaign.

Q Okay. Very helpful.

If | can go back to the preparations for the meeting with the Egyptian

President --
A Yes.
Q -- in September. I'd like to produce as an exhibit an email exchange

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Q So we've talked about your time as a adviser during the campaign.
Did you have any role in the Trump transition?

A No, | did not have any role in the Trump transition, and the
administration, of course. My tenure ended on the morning of November 9.

Q And that was the morning after the election?

A The morning after the election.

Q Now, you did make reference to some events that took place in
December in what you provided to us, and so that's what I'd like to ask you about
now.

You mentioned a meeting in D.C. that you attended at the request of the
U.S.-Arab Business Council, which was also attended by two Russian diplomats.
Just to be clear, you were attending that meeting in your personal or some
capacity other than on behalf of the Trump transition; is that correct?

A Yes. | could explain, yes, and | could explain further, if you wish me
to.

Q Maybe we'll come back to it. But just the fact that you weren't
representing -- or your statement is pretty straightforward, | think, that you weren't
representing or otherwise acting on behalf of the Trump transition at this time?

A That's correct. | was representing himself as an expert.

Q And you mentioned there were two Russian diplomats who were

A Yes, sir.
Q Did you have sort of direct interactions with them?
A | did have direct interaction. It was a lunch at the Four Seasons,

1:00 p.m., and it was at the invitation of the -- this NGO that | have just mentioned,

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that ultimately included Jared Kushner, Mike Flynn, Steve Bannon, but it originates
from an email from you.
A Oh.

[The information follows:]

bik INSERT 3-1 oct

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That's correct, sir.
It included Mr. Page?
The announced, yes, included Mr. Page, yes.

And it also included Mr. Papadopoulos?

> O >F OD >

That's correct, yes.

Q So at the time when Mr. Papadopoulos was announced as a foreign
policy adviser alongside yourself, did you know anything about him or who he
was?

A At the time where those names announced, if you ask me about both
Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Page, | didn't know anything about them.

Q And you had never met them?

A | have never met them before.

Q And you had never interacted with them in any way?

A Never read any piece, any article. Because sometimes you don't
know the person personally in Washington, but you know their work. It was a
total dark on both of them.

Q Right. And do you have any insight you could share with us as to
how Mr. Papadopoulos initially became affiliated with the campaign?

A To the best of my recollection and reconstruction -- recollection is my
memory, reconstruction is after a few months | had discussions with other people
around and they said my reconstruction -- so at the time | didn't know how they
came. But with time my mind started to reconstruct the facts.

Now | know that Mr. Papadopoulos was first working with another campaign
before he joined the Trump campaign.

Q And which campaign was that?

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because he was being prepared for the debates. And the debates | think were in
about September.

So that was my involvement with her in terms of foreign policy. She would
send those ideas to whomever was in charge of preparing him.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you know why it was that she was the one to reach out
fo you to ask you to be an adviser to the campaign?

MR. PHARES: Congressman, as far as | can remember, | don't know why.

MR. SCHIFF: And at what point did you reach back to her to provide ideas
to the candidate?

MR. PHARES: There were several times throughout the campaign, till
about October, where | reached out to her, asking her, for example, a question,
such as, who should | reach out in the campaign for a purpose or another
purpose? Because | was based in Washington, D.C. | wasn't in New York. |
wasn't in the smaller circle of people advising the candidate directly. So these
were the first purposes.

In about end of August and September, | became active. | reached out to
her and asked her, can you convey some of the ideas to the people briefing and
prepping the candidate?

MR. SCHIFF: | may come back to that, but | want to find out about your
role with the campaign in the interim.

MR. PHARES: Yes.

MR. SCHIFF: So in mid-March, you are named as one of five foreign
policy advisers to the President. Who informed you that you were going to be
named? Did anyone tell you about that before the announcement?

MR. PHARES: | had that conversation with lvanka Trump. And she told

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previous campaign, including Mr. Gordon, their view on Russia was thatitisa
hostile, especially some of them have worked during the Cold War, but then their
view was not that we need to go and confront it because that is not their level to
decide, versus the two individuals that you have mentioned, their view was that
relations could be fixed, and it is better to have better relations.

Q | want to move a little bit to the chronology of the campaign, and we
can come back as needed, but | just want to try to get through some of events you
have described and described in your written materials.

Did you attend the foreign policy speech at the Mayflower in April of 2016?

A | did so, sir.

Q Do you recall whether Ambassador Kislyak was in attendance?

A Allright. Let me be clear here. Until the Cleveland University
meeting, | didn't know how he looked like physically, so at that meeting, at the
foreign policy speech, | learned later that he was there.

Let me be even-more precise. | learned at the end of the meeting, well, the
Russia Ambassador was there and he was seated there, but | would not recognize
him. | didn't know he was the Ambassador. So, yes, to answer your question, |
learned towards the end of that meeting that the Russian ambassador was there.

Q And who did you, if anyone, do you recall seeing him interact with?

A At the hotel? At the --

Q At the Mayflower speech?

A Let me describe you what | saw. So we were seated -- this is front
row, second row, third row. The advisers were seated in the third row. We were
in that large auditorium, because J.D. was kind of organizing the media in the

back. The media was about 20 cameras and a lot of -- and then VIPs, local VIPs,

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MR. SCHIFF: Did you have some reluctance, or why did it take as long as
it did for you to answer?

MR. PHARES: At first, from December, | was not comfortable to be an
adviser to 1 candidate out of 14 candidates, and | was trying not to get involved in
primaries. That's my own choice.

So later on, when the field was narrowing, | consulted with my family and
friends, and | had a second hesitation should | go into another campaign after the
2012 campaign, and | made my decision that | should.

MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned in February somebody had reached out to
you to see if you would be an adviser. Who was it that reached out to you?

MR. PHARES: There were two persons. One is Rhona Graff. The other
one is Ivanka, Ms. Ivanka, Mrs. Ivanka, who actually phoned me and asked me if
I'm willing to join her father's campaign.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, when Ivanka called, did she ask you to join the
campaign in the capacity as a foreign policy adviser?

MR. PHARES: She asked me to join the campaign, as far as | can recall,
as an adviser. | assumed it will be foreign policy adviser.

MR. SCHIFF: Did she have any role in the foreign policy shop of the
campaign?

MR. PHARES: Now, Congressman, we're talking about the entire
campaign to answer that question?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: Okay. In the early months of the campaign, | didn't see
that she had any role. In the further months, towards the summer, after the

convention, | reached out to her to try to get some idea as to the candidate,

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A Months later -- we're now in about September -- on a different topic, |
learned that Mr. Papadopoulos and Mr. Steve Bannon conducted a meeting with
the Egyptian Ambassador and diplomats, with regard preparing for the meeting
between the Candidate and the Egyptian president who came to New York and
met with both candidates. That's as far as | can remember.

Q And you recall learning about that meeting at the time it happened or
you learned about it later?

A | learned that -- let me be very clear here. | learned about that
meeting from the Egyptians themselves later after the meeting took place. They
told me, well, this is how the meeting was taking place.

Q And understand this is a sort of -- asks a little bit for your
assessment, but when Mr. Papadopoulos was speaking about these interactions
with the Russians, did you perceive him as acting on behalf of the campaign and
the Candidate or did you perceive him to be kind of freelancing or maybe acting a
little bit outside of his brief as a policy adviser?

A If you can give me the space to qualify itas assessment. So this is
not going to be witnessing anything, but that's my own assessment from looking at
the progress in behavior and in conversations. That is a qualify. Then | would
say my assessment is that from the moment he made those approaches in the
meeting, that he could engage in these relationships, to the last time | remember
have seen him in Congress, because | don't remember after that have -- seeing
him. | don't have the recollection. Is that what he wanted to do is to appear in
the campaign as the person who could engage in establishing these relationships.
That's my assessment.

Now, but my assessment is not based on all the information because | have

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MR. PHARES: Okay. The famous picture. And it will be in my memoirs,
but let me explain how it ended up being here.

So there was the table right here, and we started to move from all sides.
We didn't know where the candidate is going to be sitting. So everybody was
selecting their chairs. | imagined that he would be sitting where Senator Sessions
is. So | told him, let me go and hide on the other side. Solwent. Here you can
see my bare head, right here.

And let me just say, that Senator Sessions I've seen on TV, maybe one
time in a green room of aTV. | didn't have any relationship with the Senator.

Gordon, | just said that | knew Mr. Gordon very well.

Papadopoulos, | have never seen him before. Neither | knew anything
about him nor when he was Googled, because his name was -- you know, other
than the U.N. model that he spoke about, | didn't know anything.

Mr. Schmitz, whom | knew better during the campaign, | didn't know him
personally, but when we spoke we knew person in common. He was a former
inspector general in one of the departments.

Admiral or General Mizusawa, | didn't know him from before.

The gentleman here, | don't have his name and | didn't know him even
before.

Admiral Kubic, also, | didn't know him from before.

And is it Kellogg? General Kellogg.

So from the whole group here, | only knew Senator Sessions, from public
appearances, and Mr. Gordon.

Sol sat there. Then the candidate came in, and he came in with many

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not seen Mr. Manafort personally. | have learned that he has visited that office. |
personally did not see him.

MR. SCHIFF: And so was this all communicated to you during that first
meeting or over time about the nature of the Alexandria office?

MR. PHARES: It was communicated to me by Mr. Gordon via phone calls
and probably a coffee meeting just before we met, just before we moved to that -- |
think at the Starbucks downstairs -- before we moved to that apartment or office.

MR. SCHIFF: And did you move into that office prior to the meeting with
the candidate or after the meeting with the candidate?

MR. PHARES: As far as | can remember -- | mean, | real squeeze my
memory here -- as far as | can remember, we had at least one or two meetings.
We were supposed to go that office 9 to 5. That was the principle. | did not
comply completely with 9 to 5, but certainly 9 to a few hours.

During those initial days, then we were told that there's going to be a
meeting with the candidate when he visits Washington, D.C.

MR. SCHIFF: And in those initial conversations with J.D. Gordon and the
other people who had come to occupy that office and prior to the meeting with the
candidate, was Russia a part of the discussion at all?

MR. PHARES: Prior to the meeting with the candidate, as far as | can
remember, there could have been -- that's why I'm saying, underlining could have
been -- a discussion between Gordon and myself: Okay, what is it that we're
going to do? Who's going to cover what?

And then | mentioned that | will be covering the Middle East. That's my
area of expertise.

And then we asked ourselves the question, who will be covering Latin

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you had met him?

MR. PHARES: It was the first time | met him, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: And during the 1-hour and 40-minute discussion you had
with him, who else was present?

MR. PHARES: Corey Lewandowski.

MR. SCHIFF: And anyone else?

MR. PHARES: No, not that | remember.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was the nature of the discussion?

MR. PHARES: The discussion was a briefing | presented to Mr. Trump,
basically about the general situation in the Middle East and where the areas of
crisis are. And he asked several questions and | answered those questions.

MR. SCHIFF: And did part of your discussion involve Syria and Russian
involvement in Syria?

MR. PHARES: It involved Syria. Certainly, we spoke about Syria. And
there was a question about Russia and Syria.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was the question?

MR. PHARES: As far as | can remember, to show on a map where the
Russians were, where the influence of the Russians were, the northwestern part of
Syria.

MR. SCHIFF: And what other questions did the President have for you?

MR. PHARES: He asked me -- we discussed -- | brought -- | brought
about a few items, and then he asked me about them.

One of the items he was interested in was safe zones in Syria, how would
that work, where would they be. So! showed them on a map, that is with him,

where those safe zones are.

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[Whereupon, at 2:50 p.m., the interview was concluded.]

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Because | thought if there would be later on anybody reaching out to me, then |
will talk about it. But! preferred that we're not going to engage in neither any
meeting nor engaging with anybody at this point in time.

Q Right. So the postpone -- so her statement that you'd postponed
the meeting to obtain guidance from the transition, was that her understanding of
what was going to happen, or was that an excuse to sort of get out of the meeting?

A That was an excuse to get out of the meeting, as far as | can
remember, because | had a conversation with her. And without her telling them,
no, we don't want or anything negative, tell her we postpone but we're not going to
have a meeting.

Q Right.

A To the best of my recollection.

Q So that excuse or that reason for her -- for postponing, that you
needed to obtain guidance from the transition, that was your idea that you
instructed her to make that response?

A It was my idea, yes, sir.

Q Now, the email, it begins, "I'm so sorry to hear about the expulsion of
your diplomats today."

Reading that without context, are you saying that -- should we take that as
you disagreed with the outgoing Obama administration's decision to expel the
diplomats, or you were just trying to be courteous and professional?

A The best | can answer you, but it's clear in my mind, that that
instruction, she did it, because he was pounding and calling and pounding. So
she got the instruction from me that | don't want delay, | don't want. So she

crafted that matter.

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Meaning my interest is Russia -- I'm paraphrasing.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: My interest is Russia. | have contacts | could develop if
you want or something like that, and then the relationship could be fixed.

So any sentence that was said later in the media or in hearings that would
go along these lines would be most likely what could have been said.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall when Mr. Papadopoulos made these
comments, did it prompt any reaction from Jeff Sessions?

MR. PHARES: Yes. There was -- again, there was a reaction from
Senator Sessions. And excuse me, but my memory is only visual than words.
He kind of tried to stop the conversation and, as the media said, shut it down,
meaning we'll address that later, this is not the time to talk about this. | cannot
remember the words, but that was the general attitude of Mr. Sessions.

MR. SCHIFF: And did the President respond directly to what
Mr. Papadopoulos said?

MR. PHARES: The candidate then responded. But, again, it's so tough to
remember. When you're sitting and looking at him, | kind of forgot what he was
saying.

But he said, okay, | heard you, or something in that vicinity. He didn't ask
him another question, as far as | can remember, can you expand on this? |
mean, the whole attitude, | can say clearly now, for all of the statements, including
mine, is that he was not there to engage all these members in in-depth
discussions.

And | opined already at the Senate side that my feeling -- this is only my

feeling, | could be wrong -- that the meeting was about the picture and to send the

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MR. SCHIFF: And what did you discuss with Mr. Clovis at that time?

MR. PHARES: Well, we had a discussion on politics and geopolitics. He
gave me some of his own views. | gave him some of my views.

And then he gave me the briefing about what does it mean to sign an NDA.
And he told me, once you sign, you are not at liberty to discussing what's
happening inside the campaign or the structure before consulting with us.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, you understand, in terms of today's interview, that the
NDA does not preclude you from discussing anything we ask you about?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: | just want to make sure that you don't not answer a
question fully because you think you are constrained by the NDA.

MR. PHARES: Thank you, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: In the substantive non-NDA portion of your conversation
with Mr. Clovis, what topics did you discuss?

MR. PHARES: From what! can remember, there was one topic that was
more striking to me, because it caught my attention, than other topics, because |
am mostly interested in foreign policy, national security, than in domestic policy.

So one of the topics he mentioned was that he would be interested in a
future U.S. policy to engage more so with national legislatures in Europe than with
the European Parliament.

And the reason why we discussed that, because | unveiled to him that | am
a co-secretary general of a transatlantic group between Members of the U.S.
Congress and members of the European Parliament. So | am very much close to
the European Parliament.

So he was explaining to me that his view is slightly different, that he would

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campaign interaction?

MR. PHARES: The next campaign interaction, to the best of my
knowledge, unless you remind me of anything in between, was the famous, highly
publicized foreign policy speech by the candidate at the Mayflower Hotel where we
were asked -- | was still -- | was still visiting the executive office in Alexandria,
because | will want to mention that | only lasted 2 weeks, then | left the office.

But during that time, if | recall well, again, Mr. J.D. Gordon asked us,
myself, all the other members who were named, to go to the Mayflower, because
the candidate is going to deliver a speech on foreign policy. And then our task
was to speak with media after the speech is delivered. So we were to act as
surrogates.

And, two, if there are NGO people, federation, foundation, because they
have invited -- actually, the team has invited a long list of people. Not just the
media, but of community leaders, think tanks, et cetera.

| One minute, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: One minute? My colleagues will pick up the chronology
there.

MR. PHARES: Absolutely.

MR. SCHIFF: But! do want to ask you, when is the first time that you had
contact with Carter Page?

MR. PHARES: That's a question | need to be reflecting very seriously
about.

| remember the first time -- what | can remember, but | could do more
reflection on that -- was at the lunch for the group. The group -- J.D. organized a

couple lunches. So at one of the lunches Carter Page was there.

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These are standard questions we've been asking others.

A Sure.

Q And your description of how your role changed and what you may
have been aware of and what email chains you were on is very helpful.

The first is the hack of the DNC and the release of the DNC's emails
through WikiLeaks and through several other cutouts or front personas, one being
named as Guccifer 2.0, another one being DCLeaks.

To what extent did you become aware of those developments? And what
conversations did you have or can you recall hearing from others about these
developments?

A The best of my recollection regarding all this, all these subjects is |
learned about them in the media. | don't recall anybody reporting to me directly

about direct knowledge about these matters during the campaign.

HE Thai's time.
ee
HE, Vowld you like a break?

MR. PHARES: | am good.

HE, You are good.

Another 15.
’
Q Thank you.
So just to be clear, you don't recall conversations or impressions of what
others may have been focused on or discussing from either the foreign policy
advisory team or perhaps even any individuals from the campaign in New York

about -- so the first question would be the hack of the DNC.

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Q -- Jared Kushner.

A Can you tell me just where is that? What page?

Q So this would be -- if you see on the second-to-last page, there is an
email from Ivanka Trump --

A Yeah.

Q -- on Monday September 19th.

H's on 23857.
7

Q Yeah, 23875.

A Oh, 75. Okay, yeah.

Q Then if you go to the page preceding that, 23874, there's an email
from Jared Kushner to Rick Dearborn, cc'ing three people, Steve Bannon, David
Bossie, and Mike Flynn.

And Mr. Kushner says, "Rick -- we need to shut this guy down." This guy

being you.
A Uh-huh.
Q "I don't know why he is running around the world and meeting with

world leaders on our behalf. | am told he doesn't check out that well and this
could hurt us. He is good on TV. This is dangerous and misleading to outside
countries. DJT has been clear that he wants a limited pool of people meeting with
limited foreign governments.
"General Flynn -- happy to give you the intel | have gotten live, but | have
heard that him calling around on our behalf has scared off several countries."
Steve Bannon, who you mentioned was perhaps already engaged with the

Egyptians on a separate track --

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rather that the Congress or the U.S., independently from the campaign, would
rather meet with and work with the national legislatures.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss Russia at all in that meeting?

MR. PHARES: In that meeting? No, Congressman, | don't remember we
discussed Russia at that meeting. But in future meetings, when you're going to
ask me, I'll be happy to brief.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Tell me about the next meeting or communication
you had with the campaign.

MR. PHARES: So next person to reach out to me was J.D. Gordon.

MR. SCHIFF: And when would that have been?

MR. PHARES: If I may just explain about J.D. Gordon.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

MR. PHARES: | had known J.D. Gordon before the campaign. | had
actually known him in the previous cycle of campaigning. He was serving another
campaign. | think it was Governor Huckabee. And I'd known him as NGO work.
So I'd known him for the 3, 4 years. He lectured at my university.

So he reached out to me and he told me that he is now coordinating the
activities of Senator Sessions, who is going to be in charge of a group of advisers
on national security and foreign policy. | was not updated about that group by
Ivanka or by Mr. Trump's secretary first. So he just told me, you're going to be
one of us, one of that team. | said, fine.

Then he told me, we are going to be having a meeting with the candidate.
We don't know where that meeting is going to be. We will only know at the last
minute.

| asked him why? He said, because there are going to be a lot of media

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acknowledged having interactions, at least, with various high-level individuals, and
then he put it in writing. And those, what is in the transcript that is public, has the
information of what he played.

To the extent that either you directly or through your conversations with
Tera Dahl, with Sam Clovis, with J.D. Gordon, others, to what extent were you
aware of what Mr. Carter Page was doing, where he was going, and how that was
being perceived?

A To the best of my recollection assessment, because now going back
in history I'll have to take into account what | knew then and what | know
now -- famous saying -- when Carter Page spoke to us in general or even in that
happy hour lunch after the meeting with the group, he didn't communicate with me
what he was actually doing in details.

Half of his conversation with me was to criticize the other camp, call it
ranting, call it what.

Q Yeah.

A And he was -- | mean, the content of what he was talking about was
intellectual. | mean, he would take one point and another and criticize.

| learned more about his trips from the media later and from him when he
testified.

So just to emphasize that when we heard from him, it was more about
criticizing the other camp, and sometimes also, | don't want to say criticize, but

complaining that our camp was not doing enough in that direction.

HE (re minute.
a

Q Thanks.

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the Center for Political and Foreign Affairs. It was in early October of 2016. Are
you aware of this trip?

A I'm vaguely remembering that it was in the news somewhere, but |
don't remember any detail about it.

Q Do you know who a person named Fabien Baussert or, in French,
Fabien Baussert is?

A Fabien Baussert? That name, | may have heard that name, but it
doesn't bring me any recollection. Is he a lawyer?

Q He is married to a woman named Randa Kassis.

A That is from my region. The best of my recollection now is the
names are not totally alien to me, but | don't recall where did | see him, see the
names or else.

Q So the public reporting on this trip suggests that this organization,
the Center for Political and Foreign Affairs, as well as the Movement for a
Pluralistic Society --

A Movement for?

Q A Pluralistic Society. Invited Donald Trump Jr., the son of
then-candidate Trump, in October, to speak in Paris, and this organization's
primary focus until then had been on the Syria conflict.

A Of the Syria conflict. Okay.

Q Yes. So the Movement for a Pluralistic Society has been reported in
the press at least to be, quote/unquote, "close to Russia," and there are questions
about whether or not it also has either sympathies for or even possibly contacts
with the regime of Bashar Assad. Does any of this ring a bell to you?

A Yes. The more we review, the more my memory starts to shed light

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diplomats of the mission in the United States during the campaign, and even
before the campaign.

And | -- since you mention the narrative, we reproduced the email as is, and
there is some English mistakes towards the end that we did not correct.

Q And Mr. Shevchenko's (ph) signature block indicates he's the first
secretary of the political section. At the time you got this email, did you have
any -- did you know who he was?

A At the time | received the email, | did not know who he was.

Q Had you ever met him, that you recall?

A So that's the first email. No, | did not meet with that person. | met
with the other persons, the attaches. No, | have not had any knowledge of him
before.

Q Right. Did you have any suspicion that he might not in fact be a
diplomat and might in fact be acting on behalf of the intelligence services?

A | did have such suspicion as far as | can remember.

Q And did the -- what you produced to us does not reflect a reply
directly to the December 13 email.

Did you, in fact, make such a reply, or did the reply come only after he
reached out to your assistant on the 19th?

A Can you clarify? I'ma little bit lost about the sequences.

Q So there's an email from Mr. Shevchenko (ph) to the email address
at your website on December 13. | guess | could first ask: When did you first
become aware of this email?

A | don't recall exactly when, but we became aware, and it was

forwarded to my assistant.

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So paragraph 14 of this statement of the offense reads that on or about
April 26, 2016, Defendant Papadopoulos met the professor -- the professor has
been later identified to be Joseph Mifsud, who was referenced in the earlier email
that you received on March 31st of 2016 -- for breakfast at a London hotel.

During this meeting, the professor told Defendant Papadopoulos that he
had just returned from a trip to Moscow where he had met with high-level Russian
Government officials.

The professor told Defendant Papadopoulos that on that trip he, the
professor, learned that the Russians had obtained, quote, dirt, unquote, on
then-candidate Clinton.

The professor told Defendant Papadopoulos, as Defendant Papadopoulos
later described to the FBI, that, quote, they -- and he meant the Russians -- have
dirt on her, end quote, her being Hillary Clinton. Quote, the Russians had emails
of Clinton, end quote. And the last quote is, they have thousands of emails, end
quote.

Listening to this now or if you read it prior, do you recall becoming aware of
any information that could be similar to what Mr. Papadopoulos has pled guilty to
in the course of your time on the campaign, from your conversations since leaving
the campaign, but with individuals that may have been associated with the
campaign?

A The best | can recollect was that Papadopoulos was firmly
pressuring Dr. Clovis to either allow him to go to Russia and other places or have
him go with other advisers. And | was even, | think, mentioned in -- by Clovis.
He'd asked me, how about going with Mr. Papadopoulos on trips? My view was

not Russia. It was Egypt or Israel or Cyprus. And then | told Clovis, | have no

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East, Latin America, China, Russia. So that was the principle.

But | don't remember seeing a specific name related to Russia. | saw
many names, former generals, former people who served in the government. |
can't recall all their names, but if | see the list, | can confirm that the names were
on or not.

MR. SCHIFF: And when were you informed about the meeting that would
take place with the candidate, how many days in advance of the meeting?

MR. PHARES: That's a good question to try to remember well. The best |
can remember is that Mr. Gordon told me maybe about 2 to 3 days -- | could be
wrong, but | just do my best to remember -- that the candidate will be visiting
Washington. There was another event in Washington that | can't recall. Maybe
a meeting in -- with Congress at the time.

So he told me there's going to be a meeting. The morning of the day of the
meeting, he mentioned to me that be ready, it's going to be either at the location
near Congress, the law office, Jones --

MR. SCHIFF: . Jones Day?

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir. Or it's going to be at another location.

Then probably about, to the best of my recollection, an hour and a half
before, he said, it's going to be at the Trump Hotel. | said, it's under construction.
He said, yes, it's going to be at the Trump Hotel. So you're going to go there and
there is the door, specific door on Pennsylvania, you go in, and they will lead you
to that room.

MR. SCHIFF: If you'd walk us through what happened when you went to
that meeting, as best you can, in terms of what happened prior to the meeting,

what happened during the meeting, your participation, others. If you could give

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And secondly would be the distribution of the emails, so the dissemination
of the emails publicly. And that happened in waves during the final weeks of the
campaign, of the election. Is that correct?

A Yes. | don't-- | have a recollection as far as | can think now,
remember, of any direct knowledge about those.

Q So just to walk through the timeline, because part of it also occurs
around the same time as the convention that you were present for.

A Okay.

Q So on June 14th, 2016, the DNC announces publicly that it has been
the victim of an attack by Russian hackers.

A Uh-huh.

Q The next day, on June 15th, Guccifer 2.0 claims credit for hacking
into the computer system of the Democratic National Committee, the DNC.

That same day, on June 15th, a cybersecurity firm hired by the DNC
publicly attributes the attack on the DNC systems to groups associated with
Russia's security apparatus. In this public post online, this cybersecurity firm
named CrowdStrike --

A Crowd?

Q CrowdStrike is the name of the company. They assert that two
Russian-backed groups called, quote/unquote, Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear
tunneled into the computers -- sorry, the committee's computer systems.

Over the course of then several days, Guccifer 2.0 begins to leak some
information publicly. For example, on June 18th, Guccifer 2.0 publishes hacked
DNC documents including financial reports and donors' personal information.

June 21st, they publish a dossier on Hillary Clinton compiled by the DNC.

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here.

| am not sure that he has met everybody before, but he was in charge, so
he had the list of the individuals.

Now I will give you my recollection at the time without being influenced by
what was said before -- what was said later, because that's very important, could
impact my memory.

So what | remember is that Senator Sessions was the one who introduced
the event, the meeting, and he was the one who introduced the candidate to us,
some sort of preface, you know. And then he was the one who gave the idea that
each one of you, why don't you tell the candidate who are you and what do you do
and whatever you want to express to him.

And to my concern, he started with me. So that's in my memoirs and, of
course, in the Halls of Congress.

Since he had seen me already in December, | assumed he would
remember me. And he remembers my first name more than my last name, for
some reason. So! covered two areas. And most of the members remember
that, including Mr. Gordon. | began with a joke, and then | made one little
statement.

And the reason why | did not want to go into depth, number one, because
I've served before in a campaign and | know how these things happen. If you go
in depth in a meeting like this, it's going to take a long time. And I don't have any
subject that | can, you know, develop in 1 minute.

Second, | didn't know about all the others, what do they think. So!
reserved my in depth to later, thinking that later I'm going to be meeting with the

candidate or with the seniors and then talking about.

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Q And were you in Cleveland the week prior to the RNC during what's
known as "Platform Week"?

A The week before, | was in Washington, D.C.

Q Did you have any role in crafting the platform with respect to
Ukraine?

A First, physically, | was in Washington, D.C., so | wasn't at that
discussion, and | don't have the power to be there. I'm not a delegate in the
Republican party, so for all these questions together, | had zero role in crafting any
of the matter related to that platform.

But I've heard, of course, being part of a team, what is happening, who is
doing what. So | could say that | was aware of the general themes, and then, of
course, Mr. Gordon reported to us later the episodes that occurred.

Q And can you just briefly describe what you recall, particularly from
any verbal conversations that might not be reflected in email about the matter of
the platform with respect to Ukraine that's subsequently been the subject of so
much press reporting?

A Again and again, I'm going to try to go back to the raw information
that I've heard directly from Mr. Gordon, and then because of the layers and layers
of what was reported, | want to make sure that | report for the first role and then
later on the actual information.

Mr. Gordon was reporting to myself and Tera Dahl that he was tasked to go
ahead of all of us, and he was part of that discussion about the platform. He did
not delve into details, but he said we had an issue with the stipulation on Ukraine.
He had an issue. So we asked him what was that issue.

He said we had to change -- the language had to be changed maybe one or

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A Yes.
Q -- in the -- on September 19th at 9:09 a.m.?
A Enigma resolved.

Q Okay. But going back to that one statement that is in the email from
Jared Kushner to a small circle that includes Steve Bannon and Mike Flynn about
the direction from then-candidate Trump, to clarify, you were not aware, other than
what Mr. Kushner told you, of direction coming straight from Mr. Trump with regard
to who can represent and meet with foreign governments on behalf of the
campaign?

And the reason we ask is because it is -- it leads to an open question as to
whether or not Mr. Papadopoulos, in engaging in this parallel track with the
Egyptians at the same time or around the same time that you happened to be in
Egypt and heard from the Egyptians, may have been part of this group that is
authorized, either directly or authorized by virtue of being with Mr. Bannon, who
may have been authorized to do so. ,

A Thank you for the question. To the best of my understanding, now
that you added that information that | can connect with other information that |
had -- | mean, had | not read this, | couldn't have been able to answer the way |
can.

But still, already in the summer after the convention, even putting this aside,
| knew that | was not -- and | released this to the Senate, by the way, just to make
this clear -- | was not part of the New York policy team that made those
communications.

So | reserved myself to media, which they seemed to be very happy with.

Contact with diplomats | did not initiate. Basically | was asked to come and

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short conversation with him, because he was not sitting next tome. He was
sitting somewhere else.

Now, it's so back in time, but the little pieces | can remember, he had a
longer conversation with J.D. J.D. Gordon was interacting with everybody else
since he's the coordinator, but | captured that conversation.

But that was all for this event. Now, there are other events where | could
help you more.

Q Right. And one thing that strikes me from looking at this picture,
and | think it's been reflected in some of the media accounts of Mr. Papadopoulos,
is he was quite a bit younger and potentially less experienced than many of the
other advisers. Did you make anything of that as to -- or have any understanding
of why someone who is quite a bit younger than yourself and these other advisers
was affiliated with the campaign?

A All right. My answer will be twofold.

Number one -- number one is that since we haven't seen him -- and clearly |
have not done research on his age just before. Now, | know the media would do
research on his age, but | did not capture that.

When | saw him, | was a little bit surprised, that he's really young for this
level of advisers, but it would have been possible if he was really qualified for
some important matter. At this point, it was very early. We didn't know each
other.

Later on, | had -- we had discussions among ourself. We call them chats
among the members. And then it was raised, the issue of why would
Mr. Papadopoulos, in regard of his age or his CV, be one of us. Yes, that has

been raised by -- in our chats.

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us a narrative what took place.

MR. PHARES: Yes, sir. Prior to that, | may just preface something. So
lll give you all what | remember. Then when | went in, I'll try to give you the best
that | can remember.

But the issue is that because there have been so many statements about
that meeting, including last summer, and many of the persons or some of the
persons who have opined or expressed what was happening in the meeting, so
they are impacting the memory about the meeting.

MR. SCHIFF: Sure.

MR. PHARES: If you understand what I'm trying to say. So I'm going to
give you first my original recollection of the meeting, and then there are going to
be layers of what other people said, and | could confirm or infirm (ph) if it's sound.

MR. SCHIFF: That's very helpful. | have to say, you're one of the most
clear witnesses we've had. We appreciate that.

MR. PHARES: | will try to be as clear, and maybe my accent is helping
me. Idon'tknow. Speaking slowly for them.

MR. SCHIFF: Please go ahead.

MR. PHARES: Please, thank you.

So | went there and | went to the entrance. It was all under construction.
And we ended up in a room which was not well-equipped with a long table. And
then it was the first time | meet with all of the others except J.D. Gordon. So let
me just begin by who knew who.

So there was J.D. Gordon. There were the other members. If you have

the picture, | could --

ME 2.

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except from Dr. Clovis.

When we met him and discussed that, my impression -- and this is not
really a recollection of words -- is that Dr. Clovis wanted Mr. Papadopoulos out of
his hair. This is an expression we could use. And the one -- the one name that
made, in that meeting that you mentioned, Gordon smile was Putin's niece. He

and Tera and | felt that he's a little bit exaggerating here when we discuss that.

HE invite.
’

Q Okay.

Your discussion with Mr. Gordon and then with Dr. Clovis that you
mentioned, were those during that 2-week period where you were present in the
Alexandria office, or is this subsequent?

A The best of my recollection was during, but it was also after. |
mean, every time we would meet with Clovis, we'd go over a variety of issues, and
then -- and | don't have quantitatively how many times, but at every time the
Papadopoulos case was raised, both Clovis and J.D. would say: well, it's like
dismissive, to we don't need that now. That's what their attitude was, but | don't
remember the actual words that they have used, but that was my impression if
you're asking me about.

Q Okay. | have a line of questioning about your experience and what
you saw during your time in the office and what led you to leave the office, but
given the amount of time left, | yield back to the majority, and I'll pick it up after.
Thank you.

A Thank you.

oY

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The second idea that we discussed was how can the Arab countries help in
stabilizing Syria and in Iraq.

The third item that we have discussed was the extremist ideology and is it
possible to respond to this extremist ideology.

These were the three large themes that we have discussed.

MR. SCHIFF: And did he express any views to you on Russia's role in
Syria?

MR. PHARES: As far as | remember, he did not express a view on Russia,
but he expressed a view on Assad regime.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was the view expressed?

MR. PHARES: He asked me, What do you think we can do with regard to
the Assad regime? And my answer was, first, we have to have all the information
to see what would the other actors want.

And, of course, this is something that basically will have to come up, you
know, with a sitting administration, not -- we cannot discuss now what we can do
with an Assad regime.

But | mentioned that the Assad regime at this point in time is under the
protection of the Russians where they are.

MR. SCHIFF: Did he express a view one way or the other as to whether
the Russians were constructive or destructive actors in the region?

MR. PHARES: He did not mention any position with regard to the
Russians. Just go back to the point of the Assad regime. His question was
really, what do you think we should do with the Assad regime? Should we leave
him or should we pressure him as potential policy? But he did not mention the

Russian relation to the Assad regime.

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Walid and he is okay now."

In light of this chain, there are a few questions | have for you.

A Yes.

Q One question is, reading the email that is on page 23874 from Jared
Kushner after being forwarded your correspondence with Ivanka Trump suggests
that there has been clear direction from Donald Trump himself that, quote, "He
wants a limited pool of people meeting with limited foreign governments," period.

Were you ever made aware of that direction from then-candidate Donald
Trump?

A At what time in the campaign are we talking about? In September?

Q So this is in September.

A Right.

Q Purely based on this information, were you ever made aware during
any time in your tenure of a direction coming straight from the candidate,

Mr. Trump, as to who could travel abroad and who could meet with foreign
governments?

A In answering this question, to the best of my assessment, first of all,
there are some emails that | have not seen before --

Q Understood.

A -- that | am seeing now.

Q Yes.

A They were two conversations about the subject, but | have not
received any written or direct communication, neither by candidate Trump or below
him, about what should | do and | can do and not.

So in the first few months, we're talking March till about July, | would

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were two persons reacting to Mr. Papadopoulos. That's what | can remember
from most of the discussions and exchanges.

One was Dr. Clovis; the other one was J.D. Gordon. The incident involving
J.D. Gordon and Papadopoulos, that | remember the most, was about Mr.
Papadopoulos out of London criticizing | think the Prime Minister of Great Britain
for him criticizing Donald Trump. And then J.D. Gordon rushed -- called him, but |
wasn't there to hear what he said. J.D. told us that he called him. He called also
Clovis, and both agreed that he has to stop -- Mr. Papadopoulos has to stop
making statements. That was the incident with J.D. Gordon.

Now, with Dr. Clovis, there were emails, and there was a
conversation -- and there was a conversation, let me see, when we were in
Congress about that matter. So let me go, first of all, about the emails.

The emails | saw were the emails that | saw in the media, the same -- so |
guess they had them -- whereby Dr. Clovis, in the general terms, was attempting,
you know, not to give green lights to Papadopoulos to engage, trying to delay,
trying to get answers from leadership. That's how | read those emails. But if
they're in front of me, | could actually opine further because | saw them.

And Mr. Papadopoulos made several requests for trips. One of them was
to Russia, if | remember those emails, and one of them was general that would
include potentially Russia.

Q So do you recall anyone from the campaign encouraging or giving
sanctions to these sort of activities that Mr. Papadopoulos was engaged in to try to
broker contacts with the Russians?

A The one | remember vividly was Dr. Clovis because we were on

email with him. The ones | saw in the media now, of course, in archives --

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And then we come closer to the RNC. And I'm only describing a sample of
each case. The RNC Convention from the 18th to the 21st of July, the day after
that, so on July 22nd, another actor, this time WikiLeaks, releases nearly 20,000
stolen DNC emails containing more than 8,000 attachments, and these are emails
that cover more than a year worth of information.

And several days later, on the campaign trail, then-candidate Trump calls
on Russia, this is on July 27th, in what became a very well-known public
statement, he said, quote, "I will tell you this. Russia, if you're listening, | hope
you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing."

Trump said at a news conference -- this is what he said at a news

conference, quote, "I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press."

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very little information about that.

Q Are you aware of any interactions between Mr. Papadopoulos, who
you mentioned was based in London, and British government officials on behalf of
the campaign?

A He mentioned one time -- actually more than one time in front of the
rest, that he has a lot of contacts, including in Britain, and in Greece, and in Israel,
and in Egypt. He was always mentioning that he had all these great contacts.
Anything very specific on behalf of the campaign, | have no knowledge of.

Q Turning to Dr. Page. Now, | believe it was your testimony earlier
that when he was announced as a foreign policy adviser alongside yourself to the
Washington Post, you weren't familiar with him.

A | didn't know anything about him.

Q And that even to this day, you're not sure exactly how he found
himself on the campaign; is that right?

A Yes, to this day, | still don't know how he came to the campaign,
except he was brought in by Dr. Clovis.

Q Now, did Dr. Page attend this March 31st meeting with the
Candidate?

A | don't have a recollection of him being there. | could be wrong if he
was sitting somewhere else, but my memory tells me | don't remember. Plus |
have one fragment in my memory that one of the advisers that was supposed to
come couldn't make it, but | couldn't put a name on a face.

Q And do you know where Dr. Page lived or was based while he was
an adviser on the campaign?

A As far as he told us, in New York.

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