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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe it did. | think - how
the world works, | think Mr. Simes and his friends would like to have had a private
dinner with Mr. Trump, and Mr. Trump didn't find time to do it before the event.
So | think --

MR. CASTRO: So it's your position that you were never part of any such
dinner or had no knowledge of any such dinner occurring?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not with Mr. Trump.

MR. CASTRO: Were you part of any dinner that didn't include Mr. Trump
with these folks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | had at least -- | had several -- at
least two, maybe three dinner meetings in which foreign policy was discussed
there, organized by the Center for the National Interest.

MR. COOPER: Any prior to the Mayflower speech, if | may?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't know if it was prior or not, may
have been. | only endorsed Mr. Trump in February, at the end of February.

MR. CASTRO: Thank you for that.

MR. ROONEY: That's time.

MR. CASTRO: Okay.

MR. ROONEY: Trey.

MR. GOWDY: Mr. Attorney General, do you know who Paul Erickson is?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not really. I've seen -- in looking
over some of the materials we've produced, | saw an email, | believe, that had his
name on it. I'm not sure who he is.

MR. GOWDY: I'm not sure either. The information | have is he's

somehow connected with the NRA.

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understand everything that you just said, but -- exactly what the President said and
what he was precisely referring to, but | don't -- we've cooperated with the
committee pretty fulsomely, | think. There are some things that -- that have been
withheld, like FISA transcripts. But | believe that, in terms of money paid by the
FBI and the dossier, that's been revealed, although this matter is in the breadth of
the Special Counsel, Mr. Mueller, and | am not engaged in it, and decisions are
being made by the appropriate persons, either in the FBI or the Department of
Justice.

Are we going to fulfill our duty to this committee? As long as I'm Attorney
General. We're going to handle our operations honestly, with integrity, with
professionalism and according to the best judgment | can give to it. And I've done
that since I've been Attorney General.

And | respect demands Congress has made. | respect the concerns of the
President. | respect the concerns of the American people. But we have to try to
do the right thing in the end every day, and that's what we try to do.

MR. SCHIFF: My time is out. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. ROONEY: Mr. Attorney General, welcome. Thank you for your
service in the Senate, and as Attorney General.

| want to just ask you a few questions and then turn it over to my colleague,
Mr. Gowdy. You know, | was part of the last campaign as well, in full disclosure.
| was the campaign chairman for Marco Rubio in Florida, and did a great job.
That's supposed to be a joke.

But it's interesting that, you know, when you talk about setting up your team
and you talk about setting up your foreign policy committee, | have a little

experience in knowing how that works, and we are very proud of our foreign policy

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Swalwell, Castro, and Heck.

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for itself.

MR. SCHIFF: Does that mean that you do not have any basis to dispute
the truthfulness of it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | would just say that people will have
to evaluate that statement and make their own judgment about it, just as well as |
would.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Attorney General, | don't believe you are answering my
question.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, I'm not able to give you an
answer. | think -- | don't think | should be speculating upon this matter.

MR. SCHIFF: And I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm asking you to do
exactly the opposite. I'm asking you, do you have any basis to dispute -- do you
have any basis to believe that when the President said publicly he was firing
James Comey over the Russia investigation, do you have any reason to believe
that that was an untruthful statement, or was it an accurate description of why the
President was taking that action?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | think he said a little more
about it than just as you described it, but my recollection is not perfect on it.

| think his statement would have speak for itself.

MR. SCHIFF: So you have no basis to contradict what the President said
as to his motivation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think I'll let his statement speak for
itself.

MR. SCHIFF: That means you won't answer my question, Mr. Attorney

General? If you have a basis to either affirm or disaffirm what he said --

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MR. QUIGLEY: Good morning, Mr. Attorney General.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes, good morning.

MR. QUIGLEY: Good morning.

| don't want to mischaracterize what you said earlier, but it seems that some
of the meetings and communications that you became aware of, | think you used
the expression refreshed your memory that they may have occurred. Is that
about right?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, it's certainly true of
Mr. Papadopoulos and that meeting. [I'm not sure in any way -- | hadn't -- when |
was asked some questions about discussions along that line, | did not mention it.

It didn't come to my mind when | was asked about it.

MR. QUIGLEY: Well, let's --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't think actually, technically, it
should have been mentioned, but | will just say that | try to be open and accurate
in what say.

MR. QUIGLEY: And | appreciate that. In the January 2017 Senate
testimony, | think your exact language in response to Senator Franken is: "I'm not
aware of any of these activities. I've been called a surrogate a time or two in the
campaign and | didn't have -- did not have communications with the Russians and
I'm unable to comment on that."

Given what you've been refreshed on or recollect of what you've seen in the
media that may have reminded you, the totality of circumstances, would you
answer that question differently today?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, let me read. It would please

me to be able to discuss it with you. | respect this committee. | want you to

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Isn't that the type of thing you would remember if --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | would remember if he announced
that he had access to emails about Hillary Clinton. | think | would have
remembered that, and | don't remember it.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, separate and apart from him announcing it, if
Mr. Papadopoulos had told others in the campaign that he reported to and they
had informed you that the Russians had communicated to Mr. Papadopoulos that
they had emails, would you remember that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I think so. | think | understand your
question, and | think | would have remembered if anybody told me that.

MR. SCHIFF: So you have no recollection during the campaign of anyone
telling you that the Russians had communicated with the campaign that they had
Hillary Clinton emails?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Repeat that.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. Did anyone during the campaign inform you that
campaign personnel had been notified by Russian sources that they were in
possession of Democratic Party or Clinton emails?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so, no.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any discussion with Sam Clovis about
Mr. Papadopoulos?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | could have. That may have been
where he came from. I'm not sure how Mr. Papadopoulos arrived. Somebody
had contact with him, as did a number of the people, when they arrived.

MR. SCHIFF: After the -- after the March 24th meeting, Mr. Papadopoulos

emailed Sam Clovis, along with other members of the campaign, Mr. Manafort,

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, my -- first would say I'm not --

MR. COOPER: Is there a question? Is there a question pending?

MR. CASTRO: Yes. Were you aware of this email or that sentiment that
was communicated?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, | was not aware of that email.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. In parentheses of exhibit 2 reads: Ever since
Hillary compared Putin to Hitler, all senior Russian leaders consider her beyond
redemption. World War Il is ever present in Russian global politik.

Had you ever heard that President Putin held ill will toward Secretary
Clinton?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | think they were -- | think it was
generally known. I'm not sure where it was --

MR. CASTRO: But you would agree it sounds like that from this email?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, yeah. But! think people at the
time knew that there was some tension between the Secretary of State --

MR. CASTRO: Sure, but | just want to ask about your knowledge and your
awareness.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | just would have gotten it from
the media somewhere. | don't remember a specific article about it.

MR. CASTRO: How much time do | have? All right.

The next paragraph reads: President Putin's emissary on this front has
arranged to attend next week's NRA Annual Meeting in Louisville. He is attending
a small private reception that Mr. Trump has (allegedly) committed to on Thursday
night, May 19, in order to make first contact. (Nothing more than the presentation

of a gift for Mrs. Trump tied to the Russian Orthodox Church -- a fascinating

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true, that Mr. Papadopoulos had Russian communications that they told him that
they had Hillary Clinton emails, and he's part of the foreign policy team, and you're
the head of that team, that the inference would be if that was all true that you
would know about it too, because you're the head of the team that he sits on.

And your testimony is is that that's not true?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | did not know that.

MR. ROONEY: Okay. Mr. Attorney General, our parameters of this
investigation are not criminal in nature. They are to write a report, to try to make
the Intelligence Community better, with regard to the things that happened during
the last election cycle.

And the parameters that were agreed upon by the majority and the minority
were set out, and I'm going to read you those parameters and ask you if you can
help us with writing that report so that the Intelligence Community can be the best
that we all hope that it can be. If you don't know the answers to these questions,
just say you don't know.

The first parameter was what Russian cyber activity and other active
measures were directed against the United States and its allies. In your role
during the campaign, can you tell us whether or not there's anything with regard to
that bullet that would help this committee?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | have any information
that would be helpful to the committee on that. That is, of course, in the breadth
of the Special Counsel, and the FBI has done considerable work as the
Intelligence Committee -- Community, but | have not undertaken to participate in
obtaining their data and the information that they've gathered.

MR. ROONEY: The second bullet is, did the Russian active measures

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extensively?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SCHIFF: And when the Intelligence Community announced that, in
fact, Russia was responsible and it was a Kremlin-directed operation, did you
discuss that with then-candidate Trump?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SCHIFF: Either before or after the Intelligence Community's
assessment in October, did you discuss it with other campaign officials the fact
that Russia was behind this operation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall any, certainly no
in-depth discussions. It could have been mentioned in conversation with people
involving the campaign, but | don't recall it.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever have any conversations during the campaign
about the propriety of using information that was stolen by a foreign adversary?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: As | indicated, we discussed
the -- my decision to use the Hillary Clinton open borders quote. | just remember
that being discussed maybe around the campaign, some of the people that might
have been involved, but not with Mr. Trump, | don't believe.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, you mentioned that you had discussed that with Marco
Rubio.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. | mentioned that | think he had
announced that we shouldn't be quoting from her, that it was wrong to obtain it.

So that was an issue to think about. I'm pretty straightlaced about leaking stuff. |
don't like that. And so | remember discussing -- deciding it's in the public domain,

it's an important issue, and that | would use it in my speeches.

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separate them out.

Do you have any evidence, regardless of the source, regardless of
ever -- of really even whether or not you found it to be credible or not, any
information whatsoever, including hearsay, of collusion, coordination, conspiracy
between Donald Trump and anyone else to disseminate or publicize the proceeds
of either of those two hacks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Collusion or cooperation with
Russians or anyone?

MR. GOWDY: Anyone.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, let's see, | want to be careful
about what we mean by this because that's a pretty broad question, what we
mean by "dissemination." For example, | used the statement that Hillary Clinton
had made about open borders. | use that a lot.

We even had a discussion about it. | think it was -- maybe Marco Rubio
said you shouldn't quote what was on those emails. It was improper. |
remember discussing it with somebody about -- and | decided it's in the public
domain, it's out there, I'm going to -- | think it's okay to quote it. So is that what
you mean?

MR. GOWDY: Well, there again, that's a good point. That's another
distinction. That's -- someone has already made the decision to publicize that.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Right.

MR. GOWDY: My question is, were you part of the decision to publicize
that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Is there any evidence, regardless of the source, of

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(11:11 am]

MR. COOPER: And before that question is answered, Mr. Gowdy, could
you connect up that question with the parameters of the investigation that this
committee has commenced?

MR. GOWDY: Well, | think my friends on the other side would say, if we're
charged with understanding the U.S. Government's response to what Russia did,
part of that response is a counterintelligence investigation. Part of that is a law
enforcement response. Part of that is how the FBI responded and whether
decisions were made, proper or not proper.

So | would say it is connected to the first prong, the second prong, and the
third prong, probably not the fourth prong.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | would just say to you when it
became appropriate for Mr. Rosenstein and | to opine, | do believe the
reaffirmation by Mr. Comey, of the justification for his position, which | thought was
not justified, was a factor, a bit of an affirmation that there was a problem here and
a fresh start is better.

| knew Mr. Comey. | think | had a pretty good impression of his strengths
and his weaknesses. | knew him, not exceedingly well, but | watched his career.

HS Five minutes.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | knew the jobs he'd held and voted
for him for director.

MR. GOWDY: If he believed in June and July of 2016 that the Department
of Justice was either potentially, or via appearance, or in actuality compromised,
what should have been the course that he took, in terms of both communicating

that and announcing the charging decision?

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, we think there are way too

many leaks in the Department in this government. And the Department has

ot

But we do need to tighten this up. If we're going to have the FISA
approval, 702 approvals and that kind of thing, what I'm hearing from Congress is
we're not confident in how well you're managing this.

| totally support the 702 and this process, and the necessity of this
information, but | do think we have a higher duty to make sure that the people and
Congress is confident that we are administering it effectively.

MR. ROONEY: Well, | appreciate that, especially since we have a vote
coming up on that soon. And | appreciate your words of support for that publicly,
because we're going to need all the help we can get.

Mr. Gowdy.

MR. GOWDY: Good morning, Mr. Attorney General.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes, sir.

MR. GOWDY: Mr. Rooney went through the four pillars of our jurisdiction.
| want to focus on the first two, what did Russia do and with whom, if anyone, did
they do it. | want to kind of direct your attention towards a couple of pivot points:
the hack of the DNC server, the hack of Podesta's email, the dissemination of that
information, and then Russia's social media efforts. So we'll take those kind of
one ata time.

And when | ask you whether or not you have any information or evidence, |

know you grew up in a courtroom and you're kind of hardwired to exclude hearsay

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today to undertake that again.

I'm not asking you about a specific conversation. | am asking you was it
your understanding at the time the President fired Director Comey, that what he
articulated publicly, that is, the basis of his decision was the Russia investigation,
was that also your understanding of why the President took that action?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, my understanding was that it
was appropriate to submit him my recommendation along with Mr. Rosenstein's.
And the President made his decision, and I'm not able to evaluate or speculate
what the basis of it was.

MR. SCHIFF: I'm not asking you to speculate. Do you know the reason
the President fired James Comey, and was that consistent with what the President
said publicly about the Russia investigation being his motivation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not able to speculate upon that,
and | think it would be improper for me to try to do so.

MR. SCHIFF: I'm not asking you to speculate.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He said -- he's given a statement
publicly, Mr. Schiff.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, let me ask you this way --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't remember exactly all that was
in it.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you have any reason to believe that what the President
said publicly about his motivation in firing Director Comey, that is, it was based on
the Russia investigation, do you have any reason to dispute the President's
truthfulness when he made that statement?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | would just say his statement stands

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MR. SCHIFF: So it is not something you discussed with Mr. Rubio, but you
were aware that Mr. Rubio said that it shouldn't be utilized?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think he was the one. Some
candidate, somebody did.

MR. SCHIFF: And you do recall discussing it with someone on the
campaign, whether you should follow Mr. Rubio's public admonition, or whether
you should make use of the stolen documents?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | have a recollection of something
like that.

MR. SCHIFF: And who would you have discussed that with?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | just don't know. Probably, | think it
was maybe on a plane, on a trip that we were going to make a speech. | think I'd
already used it once or twice. So | remember it just discussing it.

MR. SCHIFF: Would the President have been on that plane?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Probably, but | don't believe he was
in that conversation.

MR. SCHIFF: And how is it you can be sure if you're not sure who was
part of the conversation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That's my best recollection that it
was something | thought about and gave some thought to, and concluded that if
it's in the public domain, it can be used.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall, whoever you discussed it with, what their
perspective was?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall. | don't think anybody

else had any hesitation to use it.

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So that's kind of my philosophy about the approach to Russia, that Trump
might be able, with his strong personality, his negotiating skills, somehow make a
breakthrough there that would be good for the world and the United States.
Hadn't happened.

MR. GOWDY: All right. Same three words: Collusion, coordination,
conspiracy. Are you in possession of any evidence, regardless of the source,
regardless of whether or not you deemed it to be credible or not, any information,
evidence at all of conversations, coordination, collusion, conspiracy between
Donald Trump, the Trump campaign, and anyone with whether to or when to
disseminate and publish the ill-gotten gains from the two hacks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: If | understand what you're saying,
was there any coordination with the publishers of -- who had the information and
who made it public between the Trump campaign and that group who released it,
and the answer is, no, | did not have any information or hear any discussion about
that.

MR. COOPER: Whether that group is WikiLeaks or some other source?

MR. GOWDY: No matter the source.

MR. COOPER: Okay.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yeah.

MR. GOWDY: What I'm trying to establish, and we're using words we
wouldn't use if we were talking to the average jury, but | didn't have anything to do
with taking the emails. | didn't have anything to do with disseminating the emails.
You can judge whether or not | should have benefited from the fact that somebody
else did it, but | wasn't part of either of the first two. That's what I'm asking.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yeah, | believe my answers are

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communication he made reference to was there was a continuing exchange of
information during the campaign between Trump surrogates and intermediaries for
the Russian Government. That's the only communication made reference to.

And your answer is: "Senator Franken, I'm not aware of any of those
activities.". When you used the word "activities," what were you referring to,
because there were about a dozen he made reference to?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | got to say | was focused on
the one that it seemed to be suggesting | was in regular communications with the
Russians as a surrogate for the campaign, which was totally false and | was
anxious to deny. Maybe | should have -- but you're right, there were so many
other things involved in that question.

MR. GOWDY: CNN just published a story alleging that the Intelligence
Community provided documents to the President-Elect last week that included
information that Russian operatives claim to have compromising personal and
financial information about Mr. Trump. These documents also allegedly say there
was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between Trump
surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian Government.

So you have salacious information, and then you have constant contact
between a campaign, both of which some can consider to be serious allegations,
but yet he uses the word if it's true -- if what is true? -- it's obviously extremely
serious. Is that the same "it" that he used reference to two words earlier or is that
a separate "it"?

And if there's any evidence that anyone affiliated with the Trump
campaign -- now we know where he's headed -- communicated with the Russian

Government in the course of the campaign, but the only reference he made to

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the world as it is and tried to make it better, rather than having a too ambitious
goal for spreading democracy when countries weren't ready to do so.

So | think that was the core of it. Also, NATO, the concern there was that
the European economy is as big as ours. Their population is greater than ours.
And it made no sense, as | believed and Mr. Trump believed, for them to not carry
their fair share of the load.

MR. SCHIFF: So then it's fair to say that with respect to the candidates
that you were either inviting or vetting to be part of the foreign policy team, you
discussed Russia with each of them?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | won't say that, no. | will just
say that that was -- those were issues that we tended to discuss, and it was, ina
way, the difference in the Trump campaign, and maybe even most of the other
candidates.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, now, you did say a moment ago that you thought you
discussed the Russia issue with just about all of these candidates. Isn't that
correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Mr. Schiff, | want to be honest with
you, and I'll give you my best judgment, and best memory. So let me just say to
you, honestly and directly, | discussed this with a number of people as we talked
about the difference a Trump campaign might make, but I'm not saying | discussed
it with everyone, no.

MR. SCHIFF: Is it fair to say you discussed it with most of them?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | discussed it with some of them.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Attorney General, we've come quite a distance since

your first comment that you discussed it with all of them to many of them to some

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Because the reporter cannot record gestures, we ask that you answer
verbally. If you forget to do this, you might be reminded todo so. You may also
be asked to spell certain terms or unusual phrases. Consistent with the
committee's rules of procedure, you and your counsel, upon request, will have a
reasonable opportunity to inspect the transcript of this interview in order to
determine whether your answers were correctly transcribed. The transcript will
remain in the committee's custody. The committee also reserves the right to
request your return for additional questions, should the need arise.

The process for the interview is as follows: The minority will be given 45
minutes to ask questions. Then the majority will be given 45 minutes to ask
questions. Immediately thereafter, we'll take a 5-minute break if you desire, after
which time, we will continue in the following manner: The minority will be given
15 minutes to ask questions, and the majority will be given 15 minutes to ask
questions. These 15-minute rounds will continue until questioning has been
completed. The time will be kept for each round by myself and warnings will be
given for the 5- and 1-minute marks, respectively.

To ensure confidentiality, we ask that you do not discuss the interview with
anyone other than your attorney. You are reminded that it is unlawful to
deliberately provide false information to Members of Congress or staff. And
lastly, the record will reflect that you are voluntarily participating in this interview,
which will be under oath.

Mr. Attorney General, if you could raise your right hand to be sworn.

Do you swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | do.

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full extent of your recollection of -- now, keep in mind, Carter Page has about
seven different definitions for "meeting." I've never met a person with more
definitions for meeting someone.

So | think you and | can probably agree on commonly accepted definitions
for meeting someone and having a conversation with someone. The full extent of
your recollection of meeting or having conversations with, directly with Carter
Page?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | accept that he was at the dinner
that we were at and would have -- could have participated or listened to
discussions that went on there. When he said he spoke to me leaving, saying he
was going to Russia, | don't know how he came to be, frankly.

| mean, | don't know how -- who identified him and how he was
recommended to serve on this committee. And we probably -- | don't know, in all
honesty, whether he would have qualified as a person that had the background
and the experience and reputation to justify being on the committee.

I didn't block it. I'd heard of him -- I'd heard his name discussed as
being -- willing to serve on the committee and had -- was going to serve on it at
some point. But | don't recall talking to him.

MR. GOWDY: Did you recall meeting him at the Capitol Hill Club until you
either saw his testimony or read the transcript?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | did not.

MR. GOWDY: As we sit here today, do you recall whether or not it
would've been in the foyer of the Capitol Hill Club or under that little awning area
out front?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: What | recall is we had a dinner in a

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campaign, yet he's emailing from an email address that is J. 's

that your official -- was that your official Senate email address account system?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think so.

MR. CASTRO: Nota campaign account?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't know. What's the address?
| don't see the address on --

MR. CASTRO: At the top. I'm sorry, | don't think it's on this one. From
the April email, he was emailing from a E.'s that a campaign
account?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: We all, | think, in Congress use
campaign accounts for our email -- our basic email system. So it may have been.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. Did you attend the annual NRA meeting in 2016,
May 2016 in Louisville, Kentucky?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. CASTRO: And the email begins: Switch hats! [I'm now writing to
you and Senator Sessions in your role as Trump foreign policy experts and
advisers.

And then continues: Happenstance and the (sometimes) international
teach of the NRA placed me in a position a couple of years ago to slowly begin
cultivating a back-channel to President Putin's Kremlin. Russia is quietly but
actively -- Russia is quietly but slowly beginning cultivating a back channel -- I'm
sorry -- actively seeking a dialogue with the U.S. that isn't forthcoming under the
current administration. And for reasons that we can discuss in person or on the
phone, the Kremlin believes that the only possibility of a true re-set in this

relationship would be with a new Republican White House.

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: You mean any more?

MR. QUIGLEY: Well, any -- no. You met with the Russian Ambassador
how many times?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | met with him, as | recall, twice.
There was an encounter after | made a speech at the Republican Convention. |
didn't -- didn't know he was going to be there. | spoke to a number of
ambassadors and other people and was standing in front of the podium and he
and | chatted a bit.

Then a month or so later, we met in my office with two to three of my staff.
| know two of the staff members who met with me and Ambassador Kislyak are
both retired full colonels in the Army, a man and woman of the highest stature.
And nothing improper occurred in either one of those encounters.

MR. QUIGLEY: Then the April 27th meeting at the Mayflower?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall that. | keep hearing
that there's some report that there was a discussion there. If so, I've not seen any
report of it.

MR. QUIGLEY: You were there, though? You were there, correct, sir?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes, | was there and he was there in
a reception of about two dozen people. And | don't think there's any dispute he
was there.

MR. QUIGLEY: Well, ifyou can recall, where did you -- candidate Trump
spoke, correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. QUIGLEY: And where did you sit during that speech?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | sat on the front or second row.

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EXECUTIVE SESSION

PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE,
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

WASHINGTON, D.C.

INTERVIEW OF: JEFFERSON B, SESSIONS

Thursday, November 30, 2017
Washington, D.C.

The interview in the above matter was held in Room HVC-304, the Capitol,
commencing at 9:04 a.m.
Present: Representatives Conaway, King, Rooney, Ros-Lehtinen,

Wenstrup, Stewart, Gowdy, Stefanik, Schiff, Himes, Sewell, Speier, Quigley,

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | carried not many. Maybe a
campaign one, Senate campaign phone. | guess we had a government phone,
but | used the Senate campaign phone mostly. And then | kept a personal phone.
| believe that's the personal phone that | have that | keep at home, plus the new
Department of Justice phone. And | kept my iPad, which had the same number
as my personal phone.

MR. CASTRO: You have a I email account that you use?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. The Department of Justice
account is in a pseudonym account. -

MR. CASTRO: Do you still send and receive emails from your Senate
campaign account?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. Those had to be closed out.

My campaign account is dormant, and | am not -- it's -- other than our accountant,
| don't think anybody gets any money spent out of it.

MR. CASTRO: Sure. I'll pass over to Mr. Quigley.

MR. QUIGLEY: Mr. Attorney General, our first question dealt with your
January testimony. The second one, just -- the October 18 testimony before the
Senate Judiciary Committee, to quote you, you said a continuing exchange of
information between Trump's surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian
Government did not happen, or at least not to my knowledge and not with me.

You still stand by that statement?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Right. | know I've been accused of
saying, well, Carter Page, when he left the meeting, that that was proof that | knew
there was a continuing -- some sort of communications with Russians. |

don't -- first, | don't remember it; secondly, | don't believe that's an accurate -- |

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STEPHEN E. BOYD

HE Good morning. This is a transcribed interview of Attorney
General Jeff Sessions. Thank you for speaking to us today. For the record, | am
HE £0" the House Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence for the majority. Also present are a number of other members and
staff, who will identify themselves during the course of these proceedings.

But before we get started, | wanted to state a few things for the record.
The questioning will be conducted by members and staff. During the course of
this interview, members and staff may ask questions during their allotted time
period. Some questions may seem basic, but that is because we need to clearly
establish facts and understand the situation. Please do not assume we know any
facts you have previously disclosed as part of any other investigation or review.

This interview will be conducted at the unclassified level.

During the course of this interview, we will take any breaks that you desire.
We ask that you give complete and fulsome replies to questions, based on your
best recollection. !f a question is unclear or you are uncertain in your response,
please let us know. If you do not know the answer to a question or cannot
remember, simply say so.

You are entitled to have counsel present for this interview, and | see that
you have brought them. At this time, if counsel could please identify themselves
for the record.

MR. COOPER: My name is Charles J. Cooper with Cooper & Kirk.

HT hank you. The interview will be transcribed. There is a
reporter making a record of these proceedings so we can easily consult a written

compilation of your answers.

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don't believe that's accurate to say it was included in that question.

And then the Papadopoulos one too, the press suggested that | was
not -- that | should have thought of that, or I.didn’t respond properly when that
question was asked about Papadopoulos. But it was not in my mind, and | still
don't think that it's really responsive to that question. So | think that's an accurate
statement. | just want to lay out that | was -- there have been some press
Criticism of it, but | think it's unfair.

MR. QUIGLEY: If! took out the words "a continuing exchange" and
replaced it with "any exchange" between Trump surrogates and intermediaries for
the Russian Government, were you aware of any exchange, subtle -- | guess
should call these -- we're referencing that these were subtle perhaps.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Let's take -- yeah. Let's take what
they say, the Papadopoulos matter. As they refer to it, he said, | can go and talk
to these people and maybe set up something. And! said no. With Mr. Carter
Page, he says I'm going to Russia. He didn't say -- at least according to his
testimony. And --

MR. QUIGLEY: Well, that's an exchange, right?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not with Russians. Neither one of
them are exchanges with Russians. How does this happen? Give me a break.
I'm tired of this. | mean, | understand how you're doing it because the press has
been reporting it the other way and people get it in their heads.

MR. QUIGLEY: So --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: But neither one of them, based on
what I've heard so far and seen in the press and what has been leaked out, have

indicated that they were in any kind of regular communication with the Russians

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to the meeting -- this meeting that's referred to in the picture, which was a foreign
policy meeting, Mr. Papadopoulos saying he could go to Russia on behalf of the
campaign, you saying no, versus a meeting after a dinner at the Capitol Hill Club
where Carter Page, assuming he said, Hey, I'm going to Russia to speak ata
commencement, that those two things would be distinctive to you or that you
should have remembered the second one if you remembered the first one? Can
you talk about that, if possible?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, looking at Mr. Page's
testimony, he didn't say he was going to speak at a commencement, | don't
believe. He basically said he told me he was going to Russia. But your mind
gets -- plays tricks with you, because he did say he was going to make a
commencement address, but I'm not sure he ever said he told me that.

But it didn't strike me, obviously, as significant as Mr. Papadopoulos saying
that he wants to set up a meeting for Mr. Trump or somehow be the inner
connecting link between the Trump campaign and top Russian officials. That
was -- | didn't feel like he was qualified to fill that role.

MR. ROONEY: Why didn't that strike you, the difference between the two

statements, Carter Page --

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followed up on it. I've been called a surrogate a time or two and did not have
communications with the Russians. | was talking about this continuing exchange,
not the fact that months before I'd had the Ambassador in my office with three of
my staff people to talk about something.

So then it came up -- just to give you a little background. So then the
day -- the day before | was going to recuse myself in the Russia matter, based on
advice of senior ethics officials, we were asked, did you meet with Russians?
And we said, yes, | met with Kislyak in my office, and told the press, admitted it as
soon as they asked us, the followup question Franken could have asked if he
wanted to.

And then they accuse me of recusing myself because of this
unhonest -- dishonest answer. And then every time something comes up, it all
goes back to this answer, basically. And maybe | could have given a more
complete answer, but honestly, | felt like that was a responsive answer to the
question, and it was understood at the time for what it encompassed.

So I'm a little frustrated about it, forgive me, but | thank you for giving me an
opportunity to respond.

MR. GOWDY: | know you're frustrated. | watched your Senate testimony.
You went before the House Judiciary. | give credit to Mr. Quigley. He gave you
achance. | also give credit to my colleagues on the other side of the aisle on this
committee. They ask tight questions typically about a single subject matter. And
| have seen every one of the questioners on the other side, Carter Page leaps to
mind, when he says something that just doesn't sound right, there's a followup
question. Well, surely you're not saying such or surely you didn't mean such.

There are a number of factual assertions in Senator Franken's question,

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up to me and spoke. I'm sure, you know, they were pleasant conversations. It
was not any hostile conversation.

MR. QUIGLEY: Was there any discussion about Ukraine or sanctions?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. QUIGLEY: Any discussion about the platform potentially changing or
whether or not it would change, relating to Ukraine?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | know it may be hard to believe, but
| was really not involved in that discussion which occurred the week before. | did
not -- | was not at Cleveland during that week. And --

MR. QUIGLEY: | meant -- I'm sorry, | meant with the Russian
Ambassador. He might have commented on it, given, as you say, it happened
the week before.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall that.

MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. And if | could skip to the September 8th meeting,
the discussions there, did they include sanctions and/or Ukraine?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall that being discussed.
Well, | recall Ukraine, because the Ukrainian Ambassador had seen me the day
before. Because he -- and I'd been to Ukraine a couple of times, | think, but -- not
too long before that. I'm sympathetic to Ukraine. And so Mr. Kislyak, just like the
old Russians, everything they did was right and everything Ukraine did was wrong,
and we don't understand the problem. And we had a little testy conversation
about the Ukraine, as | recall it.

MR. QUIGLEY: A discussion about Ukraine with Russians that didn't
include sanctions at all?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe it was discussed.

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or not before he came to the team.

MR. SCHIFF: But you do recall his being at the meeting, the first meeting
of this group?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes, | do.

MR. SCHIFF: And what do you recall of his participation at the meeting?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | think we went around the
room. And the format was that Mr. Trump was sitting at the head of the table, and
| believe we started on the right -- Mr. Phares, from the picture, was there -- and
went around.

And he talked about having contacts of some kind in Russia. | don't
remember exactly what he indicated there. And that he could, perhaps, talk to
them. And | was a little bit taken aback by that. -| didn't feel like he had -- | felt
like -- and I'm the chairman of this group -- | should not do anything that indicated
to Mr. Papadopoulos that he was authorized to go to Russia or anyplace else to
represent the Trump campaign and do some sort of negotiations. So | pushed
back pretty sharply on that. That's the gist of it. Nobody had more than a few
minutes to share thoughts with Mr. Trump, but they talked about whatever issues
that they wanted. Dr. Payne made a really impressive presentation about the
world strategic nuclear issues.

MR. SCHIFF: Attorney General, if | can keep you focused --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: So that's the way that went.

MR. SCHIFF: -- on Mr. Papadopoulos.

So the gist of what Mr. Papadopoulos had to say was that he had contacts
within Russia that he could use on behalf of the campaign, or precisely what was

he advocating?

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MR. COOPER: This is the information.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not -- I'm confident that | was not
aware of that.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, Mr. Clovis was present at the meeting, the March
meeting, was he not?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | don't see his picture, and I'm
not sure he was there actually.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever communicate with Mr. Clovis that you thought
it would be a bad idea to send campaign personnel to Russia?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. Not directly, no.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you believe that if you had made that comment at the
meeting and Mr. Clovis was present, that Mr. Clovis would have ignored your
comments?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | doubtit. He seemed to respect,
you know, his role, which | -- but | really can't say. That's purely speculative on
my part.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Castro.

MR. CASTRO: Thank you.

Mr. Attorney General, on April 27, 2016, the day after Mr. Papadopoulos
was told by the professor that he had dirt on Hillary Clinton in the form of, quote,
“thousands of emails," President Trump delivered his first foreign policy speech at
the Mayflower Hotel. You attended this event. Is that correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. CASTRO: Were you involved in the planning?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, other than | knew there was a

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eS

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: When did you first become aware of that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | guess when it leaked.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you referring to public reports that you read or
independent knowledge that you had?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Public reports.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you discuss with anyone in the administration the
firing of General Flynn before it occurred?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you know that it was about to occur?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: How many times total have you met with Ambassador
Kislyak? And let's just exclude the occasions that you've told us about.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | believe it's the two.

MR. SWALWELL: So the first time that you met Ambassador Kislyak was
at the Republican Convention?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes. That's the first time | recall it.

MR. SWALWELL: But it wasn't a relationship that you had years prior?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Ambassador Kislyak ever discuss with you Jared

Kushner?
ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.
MR. SWALWELL: Did he ever discuss with you General Flynn?

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artifact.) The reception is being hosted by a nondescript organization called
Heroes for Freedom and Liberty (a veterans support group).

Who is the emissary referred to in this paragraph?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | do not know.

MR. CASTRO: Would Rick Dearborn know the answer to that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It's possible.

MR. CASTRO: How much did you communicate with your chief of staff
about Mr. Trump and the campaign during the campaign?

MR. COOPER: About this specific event and circumstance or generally?

MR. CASTRO: First about this and then generally.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: All | would say to you is that | was
not informed of this, I'm confident.

MR. CASTRO: How often did you speak to Mr. Dearborn about the Trump
campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | talked to him regularly.

MR. CASTRO: Every day?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, not every day, but sometimes
when we were both in the office all day, we'd communicate a lot.

MR. CASTRO: About the Trump campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, sometimes. But we had a
Senate office to run.

MR. CASTRO: I'm sorry?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: We had a Senate office to run, and
that was no little matter. And Mr. Dearborn worked hard to -- to --

MR. CASTRO: Would you agree that in this email Mr. Dearborn is trying to

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and just kind of focus on direct evidence. {don't want you to do that. | want you
to tell us anything you know regardiess of the source and, frankly, regardless of
whether or not you even believed it at the time.

So we'll start with the hack of the DNC server. When did you learn that the
DNC server had been attacked or hacked?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | -- well, there were two published
reports, as | recall it, one was from the DNC itself -- I'm not sure when the date
was -- that they said that they had been hacked. And then there was -- I'm really
recalling this, based on my review recently.

And then there was a point at which WikiLeaks published some of this
information, so both of those are pretty much public record. 1| guess | learned of it
in that way. I'm not sure | paid much attention to the DNC's initial statement
actually, but -- and | knew nothing about it, of course, before then.

MR. GOWDY: All right. But! want to make sure the record is clear so the
report is clear. Did you ever have a conversation with candidate Trump about the
hacking or the accessing of the DNC server before it happened?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Did you ever have a conversation with anyone connected
or associated with the official Donald Trump for President campaign before the
DNC server was accessed or hacked?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Did you ever have a conversation with anyone unofficially
connected with the campaign before the DNC server was accessed or hacked?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: We'll get to the --

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MR. GOWDY: There's a big difference between Congress trying to assert
its oversight during the pendency of an investigation and Congress --

HS Five minutes.

MR. GOWDY: -- taking a look back at decisions that have been made. |
think you served with Senator Ted Stevens. There were some issues
surrounding his prosecution, and the House and the Senate both did oversight
over the Department of Justice.

Let's take it out of the realm of Russia, take it out of the realm, just go back
to your days in Alabama. If there is an arrest warrant presented to a judge, a
search warrant presented to a magistrate, is it not proper to ask whether or not the
information that was included in that search or arrest warrant was accurate, vetted,
investigated? Would that not be a legitimate oversight function to ask the sheriff
deputy in Alabama what did you rely upon, and how did you vet it before you did
so?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, Department of Justice is not
perfect. It has made errors in the past. And oversight is valuable. | think
we -- what | understand is that many of the things that this Congress has asked for
have been provided.

Rod Rosenstein, | Know very promptly made available this individual who
was a cooperating witness in the Uranium-One case. For some reason that
interview hasn't taken place, but he's made totally available to everybody.

And on this, | understand that the financial aspect of this dossier has been
made available to Congress. Other things have been made available to

Congress, but there are a few things that Mr. Rosenstein and Mr. -- Director Ray

have not provided ST or some of that.

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campaign to, quote, "make the trip if it is feasible."

Were you aware that a campaign supervisor had told Papadopoulos that he
would encourage him and another campaign foreign policy adviser to make the trip
to Russia?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, I'm a bit confused about news
reports that had Sam Clovis being mentioned in that exchange. Is that the
exchange you're talking about?

MR. SCHIFF: Well, | believe --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | didn't --

MR. SCHIFF: | believe that there are press reports that the campaign
supervisor referred to in the criminal information may be Mr. Clovis.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | would not see him as high a
level as the press has suggested. He spent most of his time, | believe, in lowa.
But -- and -- but, to your question, maybe you -- | hate to ask you to repeat it, but if
you would, | want to be accurate.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. The criminal information says that on or about
August 15, the campaign supervisor of Mr. Papadopoulos told Defendant
Papadopoulos, quote, "| would encourage you," end quote, and another foreign
policy adviser to the campaign to, quote, "make the trip if it is feasible," referring to
Russia.

Was it brought to your attention during the campaign that a campaign
supervisor was encouraging Mr. Papadopoulos and another foreign policy adviser
to the campaign to go to Russia?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you need time to take a look at that?

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| hope | haven't over spoken about this, because | try to be very
circumspect about it. But that's basically what | think is public, and | think most of
you know. But | do think that there's not been a total rejection of Congress’
oversight with regard to this matter.

MR. GOWDY: I've got 1 minute so I'll just --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: And if you're unhappy, call
Mr. Rosenstein and Mr. Wray. | don't know why | keep getting drawn into this.
They keep attacking me, and it's not my case.

MR. GOWDY: I'm not attacking anybody. | actually like the Department
of Justice. Adam used to work there as well in a previous life. | just --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, you're right to push. There is
a little defensiveness in the FBI, in the Department of Justice, and they tend to
think everything they did is perfect, and everything they've done is not perfect.
I'm old enough to -- | used to be -- | spent 15 years, you know, prosecuting,
defending my assistants, and all that. But -- so it's healthy to have oversight.

MR. GOWDY: There is branch tension. | think what becomes difficult for
Members of Congress is when criminal defense attorneys through the discovery
process and/or the inspector general receive more information than committees of
Congress.

It makes it very difficult, for that committee of Congress -- as you know.
You served in the Senate. The Senate and the House created the inspector
general program, so how the Department of Justice would make more information
available to an entity that Congress created than they do the entity that created
that entity is sometimes hard for Members of Congress to get their arms around.

But with that, | think I'm out of time.

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: This is an email to him. It's
sometimes hard to block emails even if it's an official address.

MR. CASTRO: Sure, but there are other emails in your production that
show the emails are going from him the other way. :

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | understand.

MR. CASTRO: I'm asking you what computer network those came from.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not sure, Congressman, that you
could assure me that all your staff have never done anything political on a --

MR. CASTRO: Sure, sir, but I'm not in that seat right now.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | understand. |'m just telling you.
He worked very hard and was disciplined about not mixing the two the best he
can. Now, whether something happens differently --

MR. CASTRO: | understand, but | guess my question for you all, for
counsel if he would like to address it --

MR. COOPER: | will.

MR. CASTRO: -- is whether you'd be willing to send us the internet service
provider addresses from where these emails were sent and received.

MR. COOPER: Honestly, I'm not sure I'm technically able to understand
the nature of your question, but what | will tell you is that we will sit down with you
or you and your staff and we will walk through exactly what we've done, the heroic
efforts we've made to try to get everything as far as this committee's requests for
information and documents; and we'll be completely transparent with all of the
electronic access that we have to those documents, absolutely.

MR. CASTRO: Thank you.

| pass this over to Mr. Quigley.

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communication was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign
between Trump surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian Government.

So the answer is what it is, but it's also important what you heard and why
you answered it the way you answered it. So I'm going to give you whatever
amount of time you want, if you want more time, to explain what you heard, what
you focused on, and what you were trying to answer.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, recall that I'm not sure anybody
even knew about a dossier at this point. But one of the things that made -- you
know, was a cause of importance to me was that they alleged our Intelligence
Community had delivered this information, and that apparently i)
a
eee
GES So that got my attention. I'll admit, it was the sixth hour of my
testimony that day, and so your concentration may slip a little bit. But | just felt
that | needed to respond.

Now, as a lawyer, | would suggest, Mr. Gowdy, that if a witness makes a
statement like that, you might follow up and say, well, have you ever -- you mean
you hadn't met any Russians ever in your life? He didn't say that. He knew what
| was talking about. He didn't say, when is the last time you met a Russian?
Have you ever been to Russia? Yeah. Well, then you're a liar. He didn't say
that. He understood what! was responding to. In all honesty, | think he did.

And | think -- | don't appreciate my friend Senator Franken suggesting | was
dishonest in any way in this answer. And really, the proper thing for a lawyer or
somebody else to do is press it a little more in the way | suggested.

So | just -- I'm not -- | said I'm not aware of those activities. And then |

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room, one of the rooms, and that -- | don't recall having -- meeting him and having
a discussion with him outside in the foyer or whatever. | don't know where he
said that exchange took place, or his comment to me took place.

MR. GOWDY: George Papadopoulos, the full extent of your meetings
with, conversations with him during the pendency of the campaign.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It's somewhat similar. I'm not sure
who recommended him. | didn't know him. | mean, | knew Keith Payne. | knew
Jeff Miller. But | didn't know him.

And could | have talked to him by phone or something beforehand and had
a brief meeting with him of some kind, it's possible. But the first thing was at this
meeting at Trump Hotel here that I recollect, after having my memory be jogged by
the paper -- recent reports of his difficulties.

MR. GOWDY: Allright. | think we have incrementally addressed the
accessing of the DNC server, the accessing of Mr. Podesta's email, the decision to
disseminate. And | think your testimony is clear on that.

Let's go beyond someone else's decision to disseminate the campaign
conversations about whether or not to discuss or make use of what someone else
accessed and disseminated. Was there a debate within the campaign about
whether or not to -- you quoted Senator Rubio -- whether or not to treat this as
ill-gotten gains and not make mention of it, or whether or not to say it's in the
public domain, it's fair game?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, Mr. Trump was -- had quoted it,
| think, and others on the -- spokesperson had. _| certainly -- | remember, |
discussed the immigration issue. | usually quoted the email in which our -- some

report that said that Hillary Clinton had said she believed in open borders, and |

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MR. QUIGLEY: -- someone involved with this process with the Russians.
So | apologize, given the --

MR. ROONEY: Is your answer different knowing that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not sure. If the question
resolves around did | know about any communications that may have occurred
with -- at this meeting in Trump Tower with Russian --

MR. QUIGLEY: That was part of it. The second part, and | apologize --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: The answer is no, | did not.

MR. QUIGLEY: -- Trump Jr. and WikiLeaks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall being aware of any
communications with WikiLeaks that he may have had.

MR. QUIGLEY: - Okay. Thank you. | appreciate that clarification.

MR. ROONEY: Eric, | yield back.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Attorney General, going back to the President-Elect
being dismissive of the Russia connection, can you elaborate about what his
thoughts were about Russian interference prior to him taking office?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | can't really elaborate other than he
may -- you know, the indication of that was that he didn't have any such
communications.

MR. SWALWELL:. But what about the underlying interference on the
Russia end. Did he express an opinion about whether they conducted a hacking,
a dissemination of social media weaponization campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He certainly never indicated that he
was aware of such a thing.

MR. SWALWELL: Prior to Donald Trump becoming President during the

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Appearances:

For the PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE:

For ATTORNEY GENERAL JEFFERSON B. SESSIONS:

CHARLES J. COOPER
COOPER & KIRK
1523 New Hampshire Ave NW,

Washington, D.C. 20036

For the DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE:

ANDREW HUDSON

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think essentially, Rick was it.
Stephen Miller left my office, I'm not sure, in January, some weeks before |
decided to endorse Trump. He left full -- he just -- he resigned and went full-time
with the campaign.

MR. CASTRO: Was Rick Dearborn in the meeting with Ambassador
Kislyak in your office?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't think so, no.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. Do you know whether Rick Dearborn was reporting
back to anyone on the Trump campaign about anything going on in your office or
any foreign policy issues, anything like that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, he could well have shared
information about people he talked to or issues that arose. | think one of the
things that he helped with is very few of the people around the Trump campaign
knew Washington.

MR. CASTRO: Knew what?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Knew Washington and the players.
And so | think they valued his knowledge in that regard.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. For the period between January 2015 and the
present day, | just have a few basic questions for you about communication
methods. How many email addresses were you using personally?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | have, | know, a personal phone that
| don't carry.

MR. CASTRO: Well, let's do emails first and then we'll do phones.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay. Well, there's an iPhone. So

| have iPad and iPhone that receives and transmit emails, both of which remain in

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an option, but he did not go that route. He went a different route.

So | don't know whether my colleagues have any questions about it or not.
It just struck me as if the -- if the malpractice took place in July of 2016, May of
2017 was a long time to wait, but if you're saying the reaffirmation of that
malpractice and the lack of understanding of how that was the wrong decision
played a part in it, only you and the DAG know the answer to that.

So, with that, | think our time is up.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Attorney General, | just want to follow up on my
colleague's questions briefly, and then pass it back to Mr. Castro.

The President, contemporaneous with the firing of Mr. Comey, described
his decision as based on his dissatisfaction with Comey's handling of the Russia
investigation and not the basis you articulated. Was it also your understanding at
the time that the basis in which the President was firing Mr. Comey had more to do
with the Russia investigation than any other consideration?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | have been professional, | believe, in
refusing to reveal conversations that the Attorney General has with the President.
| believe that's consistent with long-established principles of the Department of
Justice.

So | can't remember exactly what he said about how it came about that we
submitted to him our recommendations. Ultimately, the decision is his, and he
made it. And | can't speculate as to all the factors that were in his mind when he
made that decision.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Attorney General, I'm not going to take your time today
to litigate with you whether the executive privilege applies here or not. None has

been invoked. But you already. had that debate, and | don't want to use our time

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that they had received an offer of stolen emails from Russian sources?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SCHIFF: And getting back to the general questions concerning
coordination and collusion, if senior campaign personnel were in private, secret
communication with WikiLeaks, the publisher of the Russian stolen information,
would that be potential evidence of coordination, or collusion?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, it depends on how you use
those words. It could be, yes.

MR. SCHIFF: So if they discussed, for example, the timing of the release
of stolen documents, that could be a form of coordination?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think | probably shouldn't opine on
that, but | guess, your observations are your observations. Anybody can make
their own judgment. They have to make their own judgment about it.

MR. SCHIFF: Was it ever brought to your attention that members of the
presidential campaign were in private, secret communication with WikiLeaks,
Guccifer 2.0, or DCLeaks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not to my knowledge.

MR. SCHIFF: That was never brought to your attention during the
campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SCHIFF: In the criminal information filed in connection with
Mr. Papadopoulos, it reads, "After several weeks of further communications
regarding a potential off-the-record meeting with Russian officials on or about
August 15, 2016, the campaign supervisor told Defendant Papadopoulos that,

quote, "I would encourage you,” unquote, and another foreign policy to the

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall any explicit discussion
about that. | just know that in a significant number of my speeches | referred to it.
And | was aware that it was part of the WikiLeaks public -- | mean, it had become
public. And so, | remember making a decision that it was in the public domain,
and it would be silly not to use it. So | used it, although | could understand
somebody else not wanting to.

MR. SWALWELL: Yield.

MR. ROONEY: Are you good? Do you need a break?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm okay.

MR. ROONEY: Okay. We yield.

MR. COOPER: May | interject at this time. If the committee on either side
can provide some sense for how much longer the Attorney General's services
might be required during this over -- little bit over 3 hours now? He's obviously
got a lot on his plate.

MR. ROONEY: Barring any clarification questions by the majority of
questions that the minority asks, the majority doesn't have anymore questions.

Do you have an answer to that question?

MR. SCHIFF: Well, we've been operating on the expectation announced
at the beginning that we would wrap up around 12:30. | don't know whether we'll
be done with our questions by then, and it would be my hope, if we're not, that
there will be another opportunity down the road to meet with you again. But that
was the timeline that we were -- the expectation we're operating under.

MR. ROONEY: It's 12:15, so -- but, you know, you're here voluntarily, so
hopefully you wouldn't have to come back. And | know that you're offering to be --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, it becomes -- it's so important

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team. And | remember when a lot of the people in the foreign policy realm talked
in a letter about Mr. Trump and were signing up with other campaigns,
remembering what you were going to do as far as your team goes.

So it sounds like your testimony was -- and correct me if I'm wrong
here -- but that you basically were trying to get whoever you could get to be on the
team. And | don't mean to say you were scraping the bottom of the barrel with the
names, but is it kind of the -- in your role as the chairman of the foreign policy
committee for Mr. Trump's campaign, is it your testimony that you were sort of
working behind the eight-ball trying to get the top tier names in the foreign policy
realm?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, that's correct. Marco Rubio --

MR. ROONEY: Jeff Miller, our former colleague here, excluded.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Jeff was a good catch. But Marco
had a big group. | guess Jeb Bush had the biggest. Marco had a big group.
And that represented pretty much the Republican foreign policy establishment,
those candidates right there. And some others had supporters too.

So Trump had scared them. It was no little thing to get people to sign up.
We did not function well as a committee. | don't feel like | led very well. |
do -- one member has told me, well, we did more than you know. We did 130 op
eds and did some stuff. But! was not monitoring everything the members were
doing, and | feel like | could have done a better job. But it was not easy. You're
right. 1 mean, this was not an easy thing to get people to sign up for foreign
policy.

MR. ROONEY: When you say if you could have done it again or if you had

more time, not being -- if you weren't a Senator, would you say that you would

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MR. SCHIFF: | mean, apart from yourself.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: |! don't recall it.

MR. COOPER: Contrary to the Attorney General's view?

MR. SCHIFF: Contrary to the Attorney General's view.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Oh, no, not to my knowledge.
Nobody, to my knowledge, objected to what | said.

HE Five minutes.

MR. SCHIFF: During that March meeting, was lethal assistance to Ukraine
discussed?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so. When it went
around the room, everybody had some comments to make. And so, it could have
been mentioned, but | don't think so.

MR. SCHIFF: We could provide this if it's helpful. Rick Dearborn drafted
a memo about the meeting which provides, in part: "Based upon foreign policy
discussions in D.C. with the nominee in March regarding support to Ukraine, lethal
assistance was a geopolitical concern raised in the discussion."

Does that refresh your recollection at all about --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, it could have happened. |
don't recall seeing that memo, that email, but it could have been raised.

MR. COOPER: And, Mr. Schiff, if | might say, thank you for noting that.
And | think we would be very much interested, because it's certainly the first we've
ever heard about any such memo. I'd very much like that.

MR. SCHIFF: Can we have a copy of that we can --

MR. COOPER: Thank you.

MR. SCHIFF: You bet.

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MR. SCHIFF: Was this before or after the Intelligence Community
announced that Russia was behind the hacking?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall.

MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone on the campaign inform you that they had any
advance notice of when certain emails were to be released?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SCHIFF: And no one in the campaign informed you that they had
been approached by Russian sources offering to provide dirt on Hillary Clinton,
either in email or any other form?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall anything like that.

MR. SCHIFF: If that had taken place, is that something you would recall?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Perhaps. | think so.

MR. SCHIFF: But perhaps not, is that what you're suggesting?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | don't recall that, and I'm
confident of that.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever have any conversation with either the
President or anyone else on the campaign about the Russian use of social media
and the degree to which -- or did anyone on the campaign ever discuss with you
whether the Russians were using social media to benefit the campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. | don't think | understood that
until it's -- in recent months when it's been made public.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Castro.

MR. CASTRO: Who else in your campaign besides -- I'm sorry. Who else
in your official Senate office, besides Rick Dearborn, was involved with the Trump

campaign?

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at the Federal level -- | understand what you said about the States running their
own election.

But at the Federal level, is there anything that you can do to ensure that the
integrity of the ballot system -- you mentioned a software program or a software
that would do that, but is there anything else that you can do from your level,
whether it's mandatory paper ballot backup or whatever that, you know, we should
be looking at?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Mr. Rooney, | raised that with FBI at
one of our classified briefings, and what they say is that at this point, there's a
mechanism in place that should help -- and we know -- we feel confident that this

election was not abused -- that we have ns that

should work.

a)
eee
|
a

So whether that's Federal law taking over this process in a greater way than
we have, or whether we can create some incentive to make sure that every local
jurisdiction that sets up their own voting process has followed the highest
standards, | don't know. That's something Congress would probably need to
wrestle with -- should wrestle with, really.

MR. ROONEY: And the last one is what possible leaks of classified
information took place regarding the Intelligence Community's assessment of

these matters. Are you aware of any of the leaks that went on or have anything to

add to that?

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that he wasn't interested in those kind of investigations actually.

MR. SWALWELL: Did President-Elect Trump or anyone on the transition
team speak to you, or were you aware of any information about returning
diplomatic facilities to Russia that had been taken?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Before he became President?

MR. SWALWELL: During the transition.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: What facilities are you talking about?
That's when the Obama administration closed some facilities?

MR. SWALWELL: You're aware that there was some Russian facilities
that were closed?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: 'd actually forgotten that. | know it
came up recently again, and the Trump administration has closed some facilities in
retaliation for some Russian activities. | think | remember -- and -- so, no, | don't
recall any conversation about that Obama decision to close some of the facilities.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you attend any transition meetings with regard to
the incoming administration's policies toward Russia or Ukraine, or discuss any
forthcoming policies with candidate Trump or President-Elect Trump?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | was involved during the transition in
a series of conversations, some which President Trump was -- attended just a few,
and others involving the evaluation of possible talent and people who would hold
positions in the administration. And those issues could have been discussed in
the course of that. But | don't recall any specific discussions about those issues.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you involved in any discussions about how to
respond to the Obama administration's new sanctions placed on December 28,

2016, on Russia prior to Donald Trump becoming President?

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enter it as Exhibit Number 1, | guess, the first exhibit.
MR. COOPER: Yes.
[Sessions Exhibit No. 4

was marked for identification.]

MR. CASTRO: An email dated April 6, 2016, from Jared Kushner to Rick
Dearborn. Drawing your attention to the third line under the heading, which
reads, on April 6, 2016, at 11:19 a.m., Rick Dearborn wrote, "Great conversation
with Dmitri. | asked the Senator to join on the call.”

Do you recall taking a call with Mr. Dearborn and Dmitri Simes?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | may have been on a call about that.

MR. CASTRO: Mr. Sessions, you previously had not disclosed that, have
you, to any of the committees that you testified in front of?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, nobody asked me did | talk to
Mr. Simes. But | could have been on the conversation. This was about the
dinner? The Trump speech? So | was not copied, | believe, on that email. I'm
not trying to downplay any role, but | assure you that | did not plan the event. And
this summary is pretty much the way | think it went down.

MR. CASTRO: We'll come back to that. Thanks.

The email goes onto say that, "First, a small invite-only dinner for Mr. Trump
with foreign policy heavyweights. Sessions would attend. The dinner would be
the springboard for discussing foreign policy concepts and ideas in line with
Mr. Trump's world view. Advice will be offered on specific items to bring up and
include in a major address."

Did this small invite-only dinner take place?

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me, and I've responded affirmatively, to whether he could reveal to you a
communication between President-Elect Trump before the executive privilege
would attach. So --

MR. ROONEY: I'm going to interrupt because it's time, and | just have one
clarification question from Mr. Quigley and then I'll just yield back.

MR. SWALWELL: And | only have 5 more minutes, tops.

MR. ROONEY: Yeah. This is honestly just a -- I'm confused, and | don't
know if you were confused by the question, so | want to give you a chance to
answer it.

Mr. Quigley asked you about the Trump Tower meeting, | believe, with
Donald Trump Jr., and he said that Donald Trump Jr. had emailed the Russians.
| don't know how you understood that question, but | was confused so | want to
give you a chance to ask either way. Was that with regard to the Russian
Government or Russian people?

MR. QUIGLEY: Yeah, | apologize. | keep trying to get it done in a hurry.
Communication.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, you made clear to me | didn't
know what | was answering, so maybe we better --

MR. ROONEY: Was it Russian Government or Russian people that
Donald Trump Jr. was emailing?

MR. QUIGLEY: Well, the reference was -- and, again, | was trying to hurry
because we've got time constraints -- it was the acknowledged communications
that he had through social media with WikiLeaks, which was, | would argue, as we
were trying to talk, again, in a hurry, acting in my mind as the surrogate --

MR. ROONEY: That's not what | thought you meant.

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set up or be part of setting up some meetings with Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin or Mr.
Trump and other Russian?

MR. COOPER: Where do you get that from this email, Mr. Castro, if |
may?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It seems like Mr. Erickson is --

MR. CASTRO: Well, Mr. Erickson is writing the email to Mr. Dearborn.

MR. COOPER: Then ask about Mr. Dearborn.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: So | don't think it indicates that
Mr. Dearborn is trying to set up a meeting.

MR. CASTRO: Okay, we'll come back to it.

MR. ROONEY: Mr. Conaway.

MR. CONAWAY: Thank you. Just real quickly, and | apologize if you've
already covered this, Attorney General.

After the convention which President-Elect Trump or President Trump is
there, the campaign has a variety of things going on for August, September, and
October. What role, if any, did Papadopoulos and Carter play with debate prep,
speech preparation, foreign policy development, that you're aware of?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: My observation is zero. They may
have had access in some way to somebody that | don't know about, but I'm not
aware of them contributing in any way.

MR. CONAWAY: Thank you.

MR. ROONEY: Do you need another break or carry on?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm okay.

MR. ROONEY: We yield.

MR. CASTRO: Back to Mr. Dearborn. You said you spoke to him

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MR. COOPER: Mr. Schiff, would you mind?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: But the rest of the group was not of
that status, frankly, just were not. | mean, we just didn't have people of -- a lot of
people of a high status.

MR. ROONEY: With regard to Mr. Papadopoulos --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | see Mr. Smith was the Inspector
General in Iraq, so he was a pretty prominent and a well-recognized person.

MR. ROONEY: Right.

With regard to Mr. Papadopoulos, aside from telling him, as he raised in
that meeting, that he had contacts in Russia and that he was willing to go there on
behalf of Mr. Trump, to which you testified that you said that's not what you want
or you don't think that's a good idea, did you have any other communication with
him directly, either casually or professionally, during the campaign, through email,
phone call, that you had spoken to him that you can recall?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall that. I'm sure | had no
emails with him, and | don't recall any follow-up conversations.

MR. ROONEY: So, as much as you can recall, your only interaction with
this guy is when he spoke up at a meeting that you didn't know who he was, aside
from on paper, before this meeting that he says, Hey, | have contacts in Russia, |
want to go there on behalf of Mr. Trump, to which you said, no, and that's it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That's basically correct.

MR. ROONEY: Okay. With regard to Mr. Page, we've had him in here to
testify. That testimony is public, which you've indicated that you've looked at.

He testified that he met with you at the Capitol Hill Club as he was walking out the

door, and your testimony was is that you don't remember that meeting.

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MR. SWALWELL: Is that something you could check on for us?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | could, yeah. He liked to have
NDAs.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you aware of others who he had sign NDAs?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, I'm aware that he -- | think most
of his paid employees signed them.

MR. SWALWELL: With respect to Mr. Flynn, when you were on the
campaign, did you have knowledge that Mr. Flynn in December 2015 had gone
over to Russia on a trip for an RT gala?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | knew that at the time.

MR. SWALWELL: When did you first learn that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think it was from media sources.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you have any knowledge, prior to November 8th,
2016, that Mr. Flynn, just as you had, had had meetings or had been in contact
with Russia's Ambassador Kislyak?

MR. COOPER: Prior to what date? I'm sorry.

MR. SWALWELL: November 8, 2016.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | did.

MR. SWALWELL: How often during the campaign did you interact with
Mr. Flynn?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not that often.

MR. SWALWELL: Where would those interactions take place?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | remember after the campaign,
after the election, he and his son were in Trump Tower, and he introduced me to

him. | had met him several times during the campaign. | don't know if | ever -- |

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of them. What is your best recollection in terms of discussions you had with
potential candidates for the foreign policy team? Was Russia and NATO a part of
the --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: And the Middle East.

MR. SCHIFF: -- core discussion?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSION: | think Russia, NATO, and the Middle
East were three of the important issues that people of sophistication in foreign
policy recognized that Trump had a somewhat different view than the current
mainstream thinking.

MR. SCHIFF: And you were interested in finding out whether these
potential candidates could align themselves or were already aligned with the
President's views on Russia, NATO, and the Middle East?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | was looking for good people
to be willing to help Mr. Trump. And if they were willing to do so, | would mention
to them these ideas that he was expressing that intrigued me. And they were
aware of it also from reading the press, I'm sure. And so that's how conversations
of that kind may have occurred.

MR. SCHIFF: And one of the ideas you would have been communicating
is that the President wanted a new and more positive relationship with Russia?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That was one of the things, yes.

MR. SCHIFF: Now --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think he believed that there's -- the
relationship was more hostile than it should be, and that we had more potential for
strategic partnership than was being recognized.

MR. SCHIFF: With respect to Mr. Page or Mr. Papadopoulos or

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regularly. In your production of documents, have you had a chance to review
those with your attorney?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes. I've seen, | believe, all the
emails.

MR. CASTRO: Well, you'll notice in the production, the documents that
you handed over, Mr. Dearborn has a few conversations with different folks about
issues related to Russia or Viadimir Putin, two of which we've just gone over.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Right.

MR. CASTRO: Would you agree that Mr. Dearborn was knee deep in the
Trump campaign during this time?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Mr. Dearborn was a prominent,
maybe the senior chief of staff in the Senate, and he knew everybody. He knew
the background of a lot of the issues that were developing. And so | think he was
very helpful to the Trump campaign.

MR. CASTRO: While he was being paid by you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: And he took -- he worked very hard
to make sure he separated his responsibilities.

MR. CASTRO: Would you be willing to provide us the ISP addresses of
where these emails came from?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: We will consider that.

MR. CASTRO: Is that a yes or a no, Counsel?

MR. COOPER: | wasn't honestly aware that -- it does look like you have
Mr. Dearborn's email address --

MR. CASTRO: | mean the - I'm sorry.

MR. COOPER: -- shown on exhibit 1.

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MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. And were you aware that the Ambassador sat in
that same section?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: There's a video of it that shows him
walking past me, which we didn't encounter one another. But! don't know -- I'm
not sure where he sat.

MR. QUIGLEY: Besides the speech, were there separate meetings at the
Mayflower that day with Russians?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: There was -- before the speech,
there was a reception that President Trump attended with about 24 persons. |
think that's the best estimate of it. And then the speech followed immediately
thereafter in a different room. And | went to a stakeout and did some media
questions and comments about how wonderful the speech was and left.

MR. QUIGLEY: So you had no other discussions with the Ambassador or
any other representative from the Russian Government or their surrogate?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That is correct.

MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. At the meeting, the chance discussion that you
had at the Republican Convention, how long would you say that discussion took?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Just a few minutes.

MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. And do you recall what you two talked about?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. Really, | may have mentioned
in my speech, | talked about general issues like NATO paying its fair share, the
United States, we've got to be more realistic, that in the Middle East we got
problems. We should be able to have a better relationship with Russia. China
and trade. | mentioned | think trade issues pretty extemporaneously, really. And

then he came up to me or | -- | didn't know he was in the audience, and he came

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number of people that participated in calling individuals, and, so, | don't recall
contacting him personally at this point before the first meeting. ‘It's possible, but |
don't recall that.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall having any contact with Carter Page
before that -- before he was announced as one of the foreign policy advisers?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall a personal conversation
with him about being part of the team.

MR. SCHIFF: And who do you remember speaking with prior to the
President's announcement of who the foreign policy advisers would be?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | talked to Jeff Miller,
Congressman Jeff Miller from Pensacola, and he agreed to help us, | believe. He
signed up as a member.

| remember Keith, Dr. Keith Payne, a nuclear expert on nuclear issues. |
was pleased that he joined us. | was very pleased to have him on board.

| talked at some point -- I'm not sure -- former Congressman Mike Rogers.
Whether it was before that or not, I'm not sure.

Walid Phares, | believe, | may have talked to, and maybe -- Jim Hoskins |
think was one of our people. He had an Auburn graduate of Alabama
connections, and so | might have heard about him. He had a business and
experience.

And so we were putting together persons like that. Some, J.D. Gordon and
Sam Clovis, and I'm not sure who else, maybe Rick Dearborn, were talking also to
people who appeared and we signed up.

MR. SCHIFF: And which, if any, of those individuals did you meet in

person prior to their being announced?

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall.

MR. SWALWELL: Is he an individual that ever came across the campaign
or someone that Mr. Dearborn or anyone else --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Forgive me if -- you know, if you
know something about him, I'd like to know, but otherwise, the name does not ring
a bell to me.

MR. SWALWELL: How did Joe Schmitz come to join the foreign policy
team?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not sure who identified Joe
Schmitz. | didn't -- | should have, but -- when | looked at his picture in here |
couldn't recall his name. | didn't know him well, but he's a serious person.

MR. SWALWELL: During the transition period, did Donald Trump ever
address to you his views about the Intelligence Community assessment that
Russia interfered in the election?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Repeat that?

MR. SWALWELL: During the transition period, once the ICA had been
released, did President-Elect Trump ever convey to you his belief or views on that
report?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Before he took
office -- afterward -- before -- can | talk about what he said before he took office?

Before he took office, | think | recall him, at some point, dismissing this.

MR. SWALWELL: What did --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Dismissing this Russian connection
in general.

MR. COOPER: And may | just add that the Attorney General has asked

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started.

MR. QUIGLEY: | --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Mr. Quigley, let me finish, please.

This is where this started. And then they come up months later and say,
well, you met with Mr. Kislyak in your office. They asked you, did you meet with
him? | said, yes, | did meet with him in my office and | had an encounter at the
Republican Convention. And now I'm accused of being a perjurer, and | don't
appreciate it.

And if | wasn't as clear as | should have been, I'm sorry, but my -- but |
believe that | was responding to a dramatic allegation and | wanted to be clear that
| hadn't been involved in continuing exchange of information with intermediaries of
the Russian Government.

MR. QUIGLEY: Mr. Attorney General, all | wanted to do was to afford you
the opportunity to answer the question --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay. What's your --

MR. QUIGLEY: -- if it was viewed in a broader sense. So if asked in a
broader sense --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Thank you for letting me at least say
that, because | respect you and | want you to understand my state of mind when |
answered the question the way | did.

MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. So given a broader question at that time, and not
Senator Franken's questions, today can you answer, during the course of the
campaign up until the inauguration, the meetings you had with the Russian
Ambassador or any other Russians or Russian Government surrogates as you

would understand them to be, can you tell us those today?

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my house. And almost nothing goes on it except personal matters, some people
who have had my emails for several years | may get, you know, occasionally.
And then | carry the Department of Justice phone that | use for most of my work.

MR. CASTRO: Any other Gmail account, Yahoo, Hotmail, anything like
that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. | just have --

MR. CASTRO: How about encrypted messaging apps? During that
period that | stated, did you use WhatsApp, Signal, any other kind of encrypted
app?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, not to my knowledge, no. | don't
understand all of those things very well.

MR. CASTRO: Sure.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: But the phone that | have, the DOJ
phone, has some pretty strong encryption.

MR. CASTRO: Sure. What about messages through social media
websites like Facebook or Twitter, direct messages in that way?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't participate in Twitter or
Facebook.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. Now --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | may have -- we had a campaign
Facebook account that -- | believe that | never monitored or it never reached any
high level of significance in terms of communicating with my supporters or of that
nature.

MR. CASTRO: From January -- okay. From January 2015 to the present

day, how many cell phones have you used?

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MR. SWALWELL: There was never a phone call between the hotel
meeting and the dinner between you and Mr. Papadopoulos?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: And there was never --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Oran email either, to my knowledge.

MR. SWALWELL: And never a phone call following the dinner?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe I've ever talked to him
on the phone, but it's possible.

MR. SWALWELL: When you say it's possible, isn't that something you'd
remember?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Look, things happen in this
campaign. You're running a Senate office. You're trying to be helpful on a
campaign. Phone calls come in. Meetings are occurring. It just -- | just am
reluctant to say absolutely | never talked to the man. | can say with absolute
certainty we didn't coordinate in any way to collude to impact the campaign
through information from secret sources.

MR. SWALWELL: And with respect to Mr. Schiffs earlier question about
whether you had any knowledge prior to Mr. Papadopoulos' plea that he had been
contacted by the FBI, you said, | don't recall. And, again, | just want to clear that
up. Isn't that something that would stand out if somebody had told you prior to it
becoming public that an individual associated with the campaign had been
contacted by the FBI? Isn't that something you'd remember?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | believe | would. And |
believe -- and | don't think | had any information that he was going to plead. I'm

confident | did not.

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That's my impression.

MR. GOWDY: | believe Mr. Trump spoke in an NRA convention maybe in
Louisville, Kentucky, in 2016?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. GOWDY: Were you present at that convention?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | attended and spoke at that
convention.

MR. GOWDY: There seems to be some email traffic around trying to set
up a meeting between certain Russians or people sympathetic to Russia with
Mr. Trump at that NRA convention. Do you know anything about that meeting,
whether it took place, whether it was ever communicated to then-candidate
Trump?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: What | recall about it is that my chief
of staff, Rick Dearborn, mentioned that there was a request for a meeting
at -- there, and later, at some point, he told me it was not going to happen before
we went. And to my knowledge, no such meeting occurred.

MR. GOWDY: | want to switch gears a little bit, and I'm going to try to stay
within the four parameters of our jurisdiction. And, Adam, if | stray out of it, you
tell me I've strayed out of it.

MR. COOPER: As will |.

MR. GOWDY: As will you, Mr. Cooper.

| do think it's connected, but that’s one of three opinions. Mr. Comey had a
press conference in July of 2016 where -- you were the United States
attorney -- he appropriated a decision to himself that traditionally is reserved for

the prosecutor and not for the FBI agent.

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involved in the detail planning on the event.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. How about Rick Dearborn?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He helped some, yes.

MR. CASTRO: Was this while he was on your staff as chief of staff?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes. Right.

MR. CASTRO: Was Mr. Dearborn also on your campaign staff or being
paid by your campaign at the time?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not paid by my campaign, no.

MR. CASTRO: Only on your official staff?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. How about Dmitri Simes. Was he part of the
planning?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He was the president of the group
and | think probably was the more vigorous leader on this subject.

MR. CASTRO: How about Richard Burr?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He -- | don't know about that.

MR. CASTRO: Were you involved in drafting the President's speech?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | made two suggestions, one was on
the question of NATO that Mr. Trump, to allay concerns, should say he'd like to
have a NATO conference shortly after he's elected President. | think that was, to
some degree, in that speech or he made that statement about that time.

Second thing | suggested was the language that it makes no sense that the
cycle of hostility between Russia and the United States should continue,
something like that, and a phrase similar to that went in there. But | actually --

MR. CASTRO: Well -

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States candidate. And he gave a little explanation to me about why he
thought -- he just kind of wanted to tell me he thought he did the right thing. And
we never had another conversation about it.

MR. SCHIFF: And what was his explanation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It was something to the effect that in
the long run this pro -- the more pro-Russian candidate would be good for America
and would be a positive thing for the country.

And | had not been -- | was a Timashinko (ph) fan and been to Ukraine
before. | wasn't interested in being for the other guy, the guy he campaigned for.
So we didn't discuss it any more. He just -- | guess he just wanted to kind of tell
me he was a good guy and thought he was doing the right thing when he did this.

MR. SCHIFF: And he explained somehow how the pro-Russian,
anti-Western candidate would be better for the West?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He had some explanation for it.

MR. SCHIFF: But you don't recall the specifics of it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. It was just a brief conversation.

MR. SCHIFF: Now, the email that | mentioned from Mr. Manafort to
Mr. Gates suggesting that someone low level in the campaign undertake this
Russia trip, not the candidate himself, do you remember having any discussion
with anyone on the campaign about it being preferable to having low-level
campaign people travel to Russia rather than the candidate himself?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | do not.

MR. SCHIFF: Does that run contrary to your own sentiment that you
expressed, in terms of not having lower level campaign people travel to Russia to

represent the campaign?

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Justice -- investigate the campaign you were participating in. You should recuse
yourself.

Not because | did anything wrong. It's because | have a -- if I'm going to
be Attorney General -- | know you, Mr. Gowdy, had served in Department of
Justice -- you can't not do what you expect your subordinates todo. You have to
be a leader. | mean, it's your responsibility. And so | had -- | felt it was crystal
clear, and the senior advice | got was | should not participate in this.

So when | recused, Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney General, 27 years
in the Department of Justice, appointed originally by President Bush's U.S.
attorney, he nominated him as the Court of Appeals judge and he didn't get
through. He stayed in under the Democrats in Maryland. So that's who Rod
Rosenstein is. He is the Attorney General.

Now, he has named Mr. Mueller as a Special Counsel and given him
extraordinary leeway to conduct the investigation as he sees fit. But he is that
person. He is the Attorney General for the purpose of supervising, in general, the
Special Counsel.

And finally, we have the fabulous new Director of the FBI, Chris Wray, the
top of his class at Yale, prosecutor in Atlanta, came up with Larry Thompson and
Deputy Attorney General as his principal deputy, became the chief of criminal
division, and just a man of integrity and judgment. And | think you're all going to
grow to like him. He had a very strong bipartisan vote in the Senate. And so
that's who's leading these matters.

Now, I've got friends that are furious at me. They say, well, you should be
doing all this. But! know | did the right thing. And | believe Mr. Mueller is a

tough, aggressive prosecutor, and somehow | hope and pray justice will be done.

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meeting, was that brought to your attention during the campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not aware of that,
but -- what offer?

MR. SCHIFF: When it was communicated to the President's son that the
Russians had dirt on Hillary Clinton that they were prepared to offer as a part of
the Russian Government's effort to help Mr. Trump, was that information brought
to your attention?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. And I'm not able -- from the
press reports able to confirm your description of it. But it was not brought to my
attention.

MR. SCHIFF: Were you aware that the President's son, son-in-law, and
Paul Manafort met with individuals of Russian origin under the promise of
receiving dirt on Hillary Clinton?

. ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, based on the -- you're referring
to the press reports of the meeting that occurred. | was not aware of that before
or when it happened.

MR. SCHIFF: When were you first made aware of the meeting at Trump
Tower?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | believe it was in the newspaper
recently.

MR. SCHIFF: So the first time you learned that Manafort, Kushner, and
Flynn -- I'm sorry, Manafort, Kushner, and the President's son, Don Jr., had met
with Veselnitskaya and others was when you read about it in the newspaper?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes, that's my best recollection.

MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone during the campaign ever communicate to you

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respect me and believe that I didn't do anything intentionally wrong in any way.

This is the question that Senator Franken asked me: "CNN has just -- that
day -- just published a story and I'm telling you this about a new story that's just
been published. I'm not expecting you to know whether it's true or not, but CNN
just published a story alleging that the Intelligence Community of the United States
of America, the Intelligence Community provided documents to the President-Elect
last week that included information that, quote, 'Russian operatives claim to have
compromising personal and financial information about Mr. Trump," close quote.

He goes on to say: These documents also allegedly say, quote: "There
was a continuing exchange of information during the campaign between Trump
surrogates and intermediaries for the Russian Government," close quote.

Now, again, Franken says: "I'm telling you this as it's coming out so you
know, but if it's true, it's obviously extremely serious. And if there is any evidence
that anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated with the Russian
Government in the course of this campaign, what will you do?"

Well, | was taken aback by this. Now, this is apparently on CNN that very
day. And|said: "Senator Franken, I'm not aware of those activities," which is
the absolute truth. "I have been called a surrogate a time or two in that campaign,
and | didn't have -- did not have communications with the Russians and I'm unable
to comment on it.

| didn't mean I'd never met a Russian in my life. | meant that | wasn't
meeting Russians, operatives, involved in a continuing exchange of information
during the campaign, intermediaries of the Russian Government.

So | thought that was a clear and fair response to the charges or the

allegation. So forgive me if I'm a little bit passionate about this, but this is where it

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He indicated that -- well, the article
that came out, and it quoted him when he entered his plea where he said -- it
quoted what he said, | think it's generally what | would recall about it. | mean, |
can't say whether that was what | read in the paper that refreshed my mind, or my
independent recollection of it.

And so he indicated that he had -- he could go to Russia, as | recall, and he
could maybe set up some sort of meetings with Russian leadership, maybe
Mr. Putin. And | thought this was, you know, something that we need to be giving
great thought to. He didn't need to be going to Russia, leaving a meeting with
President -- Donald Trump, suggesting to the Russians that he could speak for
Donald Trump and his campaign. So that's why | pushed back.

MR. SCHIFF: But you had conveyed or others had conveyed there was an
interest on the President's part in furthering the relationship with Russia, correct?
ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, at a strategic level, yes.

MR. SCHIFF: You mentioned the criminal information to which
Mr. Papadopoulos pled. | believe it was in January, according to the public
reports, that Mr. Papadopoulos may have first been contacted by the FBI ina
chain of events that ultimately led to that plea. When did it first come to your
attention that Mr. Papadopoulos had been interviewed by Federal agents?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | had any information
about it other than what | read in the papers. | have -- you know, Mr. Mueller's
investigation I've recused myself from, and I've rigorously maintained a distance
from that and have not sought information about it.

MR. SCHIFF: Is it your testimony then, Mr. Attorney General, that the first

time you learned that Mr. Papadopoulos had been in touch with Federal agents

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discussion of the Center for the National Interest hosting the event.

MR. CASTRO: How did you know about that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | had gotten to know some of
those individuals, | believe, before this. |, in 2015, was asked to do the
nominating speech for Senator Tim Kaine, who got an award from him, along with
Senator Pat Roberts. Someone else nominated him. They got an award --

MR. CASTRO: But who did you hear that from, a specific individuals or
individuals, if you recall?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Somewhere along the way
communications developed between -- that | was aware that they were interested
in the Trump campaign because they were a realist foreign policy think tank.

MR. CASTRO: Attorney General, how were you aware --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: And they were interested in offering
the opportunity for Trump to make a formal speech there, and | was aware of that.
| probably talked to Paul Saunders and to Dmitri Simes, who was the president,
Henry Kissinger is on the board, General Chuck Bard, (ph) four star, is a stellar
team.

MR. CASTRO: You've given me more than enough on this. | have some
more questions.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay. Well, | just want people to
know that it's a reputable think tank.

MR. CASTRO: And who else was involved in the planning? Jared
Kushner?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Sort of what happened, Mr. Castro,

is that | believe that Mr. Kushner worked out the details about this. | was not

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HE, 2k you, sir, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Attorney General, thank you for coming this morning.
I'm Mike Conaway from Texas. I'm the lead on the investigation, along with my
colleague, Adam Schiff, and Trey Gowdy and Tom Rooney on our side. So thank
you for coming this morning.

With that, Mr. Schiff, any comments?

MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Attorney General, welcome to the committee. | look forward to your
testimony today and appreciate your coming in.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Thank you.

MR. CONAWAY: With that, we will start. Do you have a statement?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | just would say that I've
testified now quite a number of hours. | asked to have my previous testimony
before the Intel Committee open, and it is my goal to be open and cooperative in
your important work.

MR. CONAWAY: Allright. Thank you.

With that, Mr. Schiff, your side has 45 minutes.

MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Attorney General, | want to start with March 17th of last year. During
the 2016 campaign, you led the then-Candidate Trump's foreign policy team as
chair of his National Security Advisory Committee. Is that correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. SCHIFF: On March 17, Steve Miller, in an interview, said that on the
Kelly file, quote, "Jeff Sessions has been meeting for hours now, putting together a

team of foreign policy advisers, military experts, and intelligence experts."

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35,000 FBI employees, has a budget of $8 billion, reports to the Deputy and to the
Attorney General of the United States. And | made a recommendation on his
position for reasons stated in the recommendation we submitted to the President,
and | stand by that.

And | don't believe the recusal on a single case that might be under the
jurisdiction of the FBI makes me unable to make a major decision of the FBI.

MR. CASTRO: On the biggest case --

Hive minutes.

MR. CASTRO: -- that the country is dealing with having to do with a
foreign power interfering with our democracy, you still feel you had a legitimate,
and ethical role to play in suggesting he be fired?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Absolutely. | don't think it's a close
question.

MR. CASTRO: Okay. I'd like to hand you an email sent on May 10, 2016,
from Paul Erickson to Rick Dearborn.

We can mark this email as exhibit No. 2 for identification.

[Sessions Exhibit No. 2
Was marked for identification.]

MR. CASTRO: Have you seen this email? And who is Paul Erickson?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't know who Paul Erickson is,
and I'm confident | did not see this email until preparation of documents for this
committee.

MR. CASTRO: Rick Dearborn was your chief of staff at the time?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. CASTRO: You mentioned earlier that he wasn't working on your

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have -- when you say you would have done a better job, does that include like
vetting some of the people that you were working to get on your committee and
knowing who they were and what their backgrounds were?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes. And perhaps we could have
been able to win over some people that could have been supportive but weren't
properly approached, and enough time was not spent with them to get them to
come on board. Because in many ways, the Trump realist foreign policy had a lot
of intellectual support out there. Maybe a minority within the community, but it
was -- but his personal style had -- frankly, was off-putting to some of the
professional foreign policy experts.

MR. ROONEY: We've heard the minority talk in its line of questioning at
length with regard to Mr. Papadopoulos and Carter Page. Let's focus on those
two briefly. The infamous photograph there that Mr. Schiff has that everybody's
seen that was taken at the foreign policy meeting that Mr. Trump attended, were
you aware of everybody that was in that room and their backgrounds, or just how
familiar were you with that team as it sat there at that meeting?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | was not that familiar with them. |
had not done background checks on any of them. A few | knew, like
Congressman Miller, my neighbor in Florida. And | knew Walid Phares from
television more than | did know him personally.

Dr. Keith Payne was the -- a critical part of the Schlesinger-Perry, a nuclear
posture review that was done 4 or 5 years ago, which, from my subcommittee |
knew him well and | thought he was a premier foreign policy thinker on nuclear
issues. For the rest of the group, it was not -- if | had the picture, | might

remember a few.

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MR. SCHIFF: That wasn't exactly what | asked you. So let me be very
specific. Did the President ever instruct you to take any action that you believe
would have hindered the Russia investigation in any way?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, you're calling for a
communication, number one, that | think is inappropriate to be revealed at this
time. And number two, | don’t think that | can answer that effectively for you.

MR. SCHIFF: Is it your position, Mr. Attorney General, that if the President
instructed you to do something that would hinder the Russia investigation that you
are prohibited from telling us?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: What | would say to you is, first, |
would do nothing improper as Attorney General.

MR. SCHIFF: I'm not asking what you would do.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm just telling you | would not do
that.

And secondly, you're calling for a communication with the President that |
am unable to reveal at this time.

MR. SCHIFF: I'm asking you whether he ever instructed you to take action
that would hinder the Russia investigation. That would be a criminal act, Mr.
Attorney General. It would not be covered by any privilege. If he did, you should
say so. If he did not, you should say so.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | am -- | think I've answered
that --

MR. SCHIFF: | don't believe you have, sir.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: -- publicly. | have not been ordered

to carry out any unlawful act by the President.

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indicated a change was probably appropriate. So it wasn't a, | don't think, a
problem for Mr. Rosenstein to write the memorandum he did or for me to write the
one | wrote.

MR. GOWDY: Well, I'm in a very small universe of people, and it's getting
smaller by the day, of people that think Director Comey was in a pretty difficult
circumstance in July of 2016. Those were -- it was an unusual fact pattern
complicated by -- these are his words -- a meeting on the tarmac potentially
complicated by things that he could not discuss publicly.

But that aside, my sympathies for his plot aside, it's a pretty unusual
decision for the FBI Director to appropriate a charging decision to himself or
herself, and then to go into the detail in which he justified that decision. I've never
seen that done before.

And then you fast forward, the decision to notify Congress in October that
the investigation was ongoing. There are 100 ways to confidentially notify
Congress that something is ongoing. It does not have to be through the U.S.
Postal Service, and it doesn't have to be in a public letter. And then there's
another letter in November.

So I'm not trying to relitigate whether or not his missteps in 2016 warranted
dismissal. |'m trying to understand what happened between the inauguration and
the dismissal date that was more egregious than what happened prior to the

inauguration date.

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know when | may have seen him personally. | don't have a recollection of it. |
knew about him and | knew about Papadopoulos, because their names were being
bandied as part of the team that was prepared to support Trump.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, before | leave Mr. Papadopoulos completely, you had
the interaction with Mr. Papadopoulos during that March meeting. Did you have
any further communication with him in person?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He may have been at the dinner that
| hosted in -- June 16th.

MR. SCHIFF: And that dinner was where?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: At the Capitol Hill Club.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall having any conversation with him at that
time?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall any specific
conversation with him at that time. He could have been there.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall any other communication with him, in person
or over the phone or in writing?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SCHIFF: So the only specific recollection you have of interacting with
him was at the March meeting?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That is correct.

MR. SCHIFF: And --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Now, | did meet and talk with on the
phone, trying to -- look, our goal was to try to get as many people as we could get
to be supportive of the Trump campaign, and it was not easy in the foreign policy

area. So people, names appeared. They were not heavyweight folks but wanted

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MR. COOPER: Excuse me, Mr. Gowdy, a conversation about the hack
before it actually came up?

MR. GOWDY: Yes.

MR. COOPER: Thank you.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay.

MR. GOWDY: Is that -- did you understand my question to be that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Maybe you better repeat it.

MR. GOWDY: Allright. Did you have any conversations with anyone, not
Donald Trump, not the official campaign, unofficial campaign, or, frankly, anyone
else about accessing or attacking the DNC server before it happened?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: All right. John Podesta's email account, did you ever have
a conversation with candidate Donald Trump about accessing, hacking John
Podesta's email account before it happened?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Same question, but not Donald Trump, the official
campaign, the Trump campaign, any conversations? Overhear anything?
Rumors about it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Not Trump, not the official campaign, anyone, Alabama,
Washington, or anywhere else about hacking or accessing John Podesta's email
before it happened?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: All right. | want to move to the dissemination of it. There

are tweets from Roger Stone and the President himself about Secretary Clinton's

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: -- did not see the speech until maybe
the day before. ,

MR. CASTRO: So you were shown a draft the day before?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: The day before, | believe.

MR. CASTRO: Was it emailed to you or given to you in a physical copy?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall.

MR. CASTRO: Was that produced as part of your documents that were
produced?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: If it was on my email, it is produced.
There may be some that weren't produced, but -- that we don't have, but most
of -- we produced it.

MR. COOPER: And | could maybe help with that, having supervised the
effort to gather emails and produce them to the committee. | certainly do not
recall that having been in any of the emails or produced to the committee.

MR. CASTRO: Okay.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think it's pretty much delivered as |
saw it. But! think they had a number of people that contribute to it.

MR. CASTRO: Sure. And who else was involved in the speech writing?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | know Stephen Miller
supervised the compilation of it. And | can't recall now, but they had people that
reviewed it.

MR. CASTRO: What was Mr. Simes' role in drafting the speech?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not aware of what role he may
have had.

MR. CASTRO: I'd like to show you an email, present you an email and

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In terms of Carter Page, do you recall meeting him at the dinner at the
Republican Club?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall it. But | saw his
deposition, his testimony, and he indicated he was there and he spoke to me as
he left. And that's quite possible. | don't dispute that.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall him telling you that he was going to go to
Russia?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SCHIFF: Given the concerns that you expressed when
Mr. Papadopoulos suggested that he could go to Russia and establish contacts,
and that worried you, if Dr. Page told you he was going to Russia, wouldn't that
have raised the same concerns with you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | don't know the context of it. |
noticed his deposition said that it looked like it went in one ear and out the other,
talking to me, about me. So | don't know that | understood what he was saying or
the fact that he was going to Russia, if that's what he, indeed, said, that that would
raise the same problems of Mr. Papadopoulos saying, I'm going to Russia to plan
a meeting with the leadership or Putin or whoever he said he could do. That was
way beyond what | thought was appropriate at that time.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, if any of the foreign policy team communicated to you
that they were going to Russia and communicated this to you at a campaign event,
wouldn't that have raised the same concerns that you expressed about
Mr. Papadopoulos saying that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | just don't recall, Mr. Schiff. |

just -- | don't recall what he said or how it could have happened. | don't dispute

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and you say you focused on the communication, ongoing communication. If I'd
been asked, | would have been focused on the salacious details that were just
delivered to the President.

So look, it's easy to. go back and micromanage somebody's answer. | want
it to be equally easy for us to go back and micromanage someone's question.
And when you ask a 12-part question, then | think it's only fair that we -- the
person who asked the question, his response at the end of yours was very well. It
wasn't hang on a second. It wasn't wait a minute, you're on committees that
routinely meet with foreign dignitaries. It was very well.

So | appreciate my colleagues giving you a chance to explain it. | know it
bothers you, because you've addressed it every opportunity you get. Nobody
likes to be accused of being a liar. Nobody likes to be accused of perjury. |
think, in fairness, if you consider the question you were asked, it was pretty
broad-ranging and included lots of different things. They can quarrel with your
answer, but | think the fairer thing to do is quarrel a little bit with one of the worst
damn questions | have seen asked in my time in Congress as well.

| don't have anything else.

MR. SCHIFF: I'm going to pass it to Mr. Swalwell in a second, but | did
want to get back to something you had mentioned at the outset, Mr. Attorney
General.

And | don't know that we've discussed this issue internally, but you
discussed that you preferred that this be ‘an open session. Is it your desire that
the transcript of today's hearing be made public?

MR. COOPER: No, | don't think he said he prefers that this session be an

open session.

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always sort of drove that.

So | think different people used different parts of what had been published
as effectively as they could to advance the interest of the campaign.

MR. GOWDY: | want to ask you about you. You were in the United
States Senate for how many years?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Twenty.

MR. GOWDY: | want you to broadly address your position towards Russia
during your time in the Senate and whether or not it changed.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | grew up as a William Buckley
anti-Communist conservative, a rock-grip, anti-Communist. But as the years went
by, | felt it was pretty tragic that our initial good relations with Russia had eroded,
that Putin had gone harder, and that -- and our relationship was deteriorating, and
that -- was it not possible that we could restore a more positive relationship with
Russia, which would be good for the world, it would be good for Europe, it would
be good for the United States, it would be good against terrorism.

And so these are, as I've gotten older, you've got to be careful of these
visions because they don't always ripen. If they hadn't ripened yet, maybe there's
a reason they hadn't ripened. Nixon did go to China with Kissinger. And so my
thought was that there might be an opportunity with Donald Trump to repair that
relationship, in which case, it would be a monumentally positive thing for the world.
And | asked a lot of people about it.

| talked to the lady at George Washington University who wrote a book on
Russia, asked her to come by, talk to me about it, said, is this possible? Is this
too risky? And her comment was -- the way | really came down to it was this: It's

okay to try, but you have to be willing to walk away if it doesn't develop.

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MR. QUIGLEY: Conceivably, what else would the Russians want to talk
about to someone like yourself other than the relief as it relates to Ukraine, in their
minds, of sanctions?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: There are two sanctions. The
Obama administration put sanctions on as the result of a concern over the
campaign interference. That was after the election.

MR. QUIGLEY: Correct. The sanctions that we imposed on Russia
relating to their activities in Ukraine.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe -- there was certainly
no serious discussion about it. | did not make any memorandum. | didn't call the
Trump campaign.

MR. QUIGLEY: Did anyone else in the meeting --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't know anything about --

MR. QUIGLEY: -- take notes of that meeting? I'm sorry.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't.

MR. QUIGLEY: You don't know if anyone else in your office, anyone else
in that office, the meeting on September 8th, took notes, took any sort of
memorandum, tape-recording?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It was not tape-recorded, | know.
And | believe there -- at least one person had some notes.

MR. QUIGLEY: And do you know who that was?

MR. ROONEY: One minute.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, it was a young staffer had
about a one-page note, as | recall, notes of it.

MR. QUIGLEY: And would that be available?

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MR. GOWDY: | can see how it would highlight it, but the usurpation took
place in July of 2016. And it -- maybe this is what happened, but it'd be difficult
for me to understand how merely reaffirming a bad decision you made is somehow
more egregious than the underlying decision.

And that decision was made months and months in advance of President
Trump winning and being inaugurated. So was it the reaffirmation? His lack of
contrition? His lack of acknowledgment that he made a poor decision in July
of 2016, or was it the fact that he made the decision itself in July of 2016 that led
to his dismissal?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: What | would say to --

MR. COOPER: Could | just ask for a clarification. Are you asking the
Attorney General about his state of mind or what he understood to be the
President's state of mind at the time of the dismissal?

MR. GOWDY: Well, | would not ask him what the President's state of mind
was because I'd be shocked if he knew, so I'm going to restrict it to what he
understood, what he was told from people not named Trump.

As | understood his testimony, he and the DAG -- | think my underlying
question was, if they had made a separate recommendation to the President, if
they had recommended to keep Director Comey, would he still be the Director of
the FBI? | think that was my underlying question.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yeah. I'm not -- | don't know what
the President would have done under those circumstances. He and | had agreed
that a fresh start was appropriate for the FBI. Both of us had some experience
with the FBI. He had more recent and longer than |, but | valued his judgment.

Actually, a number of people that | trusted, valued their judgment, had

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: We could make that available for
you.

MR. QUIGLEY: We'd certainly appreciate that.

Besides the meetings with the Russian Ambassador, any other direct
meetings or indirect meetings you might have had with representatives of the
Russian Government or their surrogates?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, | don't believe so. Certainly
nothing of a significant nature.

MR. QUIGLEY: My time is up.

MR. ROONEY: Mr. Gowdy.

MR. GOWDY: Mr. Attorney General, | know that people don't always like
lawyers, but every now and again they ask a little tighter question than a former
comedian. So I'm going to go back through Senator Franken's question with you.

| have identified 11 separate factual predicates or inclusions in that
wandering, labyrinthine question that he asked you. We'll get to the seminal part
before we get to your answer. But if it's true, what in the hell was "it"? He had
just made reference to a dossier, continuing exchange of information between the
campaign, Trump surrogates and intermediaries, Russian operatives having
compromising personal and financial information about Mr. Trump, and that CNN
had just published it.

So | don't know what the hell he meant by if it's true. What is "it"? He just
made reference to almost a dozen separate factual predicates. But if it's true, "it"
again, it's obviously extremely serious, and if there is any evidence that anyone
affiliated with the Trump campaign communicated. So you get to the word

"communicated," you go back to the predicate before that, and the only

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[10:04 a.m.]

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That's quite a bit of difference, |
would say, as I've described it. He's talking about actually being a key player in
this event, that | didn't -- | wasn't prepared to sit silently about.

In other words, if you sit silently, and somebody in that room says, | can go
set this up, Mr. Trump, and let me take care of it and nobody says no, then he can
go to Russia and start portraying himself as some sort of official representative of
the campaign, and we certainly didn't know enough about him at that point to
empower him in that way.

MR. ROONEY: You were asked by Mr. Schiff with regard to
Mr. Papadopoulos -- sorry to keep flipping back and forth between these two
guys -- but Mr. Papadopoulos being aware that there was emails from Russia
about Hillary Clinton that he had access to apparently that -- and you -- your
testimony was that you were not aware that that was out there.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | certainly had no clear
understanding.

MR. ROONEY: Well, | guess the inference would be that if, you know, you
were going to connect the dots, that if you were the head of the foreign policy
team, and this guy was on the team, and that he had apparently had Russians
telling him that he had Hillary Clinton emails, that the inference would be that you
being the chair or the head of the foreign policy team would know that.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | didn't know that, | will just say
it that way. But | want to be clear, and | don't want to delay us, but | think |
understood your question, and | think I've answered it correctly.

MR. ROONEY: Well, | think, just to try to clear it up, if this inference is

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question is more relevant to our inquiry. So let me narrow it.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay. | was -- go ahead.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a robust foreign policy discussion with any of
the potential candidates for the foreign policy team pertaining to Russia or
Ukraine?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not so much Ukraine, but there
was -- President Trump had raised the question of Russia and the -- his belief that
we should be able to get along with Russia and work with Russia. That was
something he said publicly. That's something that | hoped could be a reality.

| talked to quite a number of people for some time about a more realistic
foreign policy, a foreign policy more in the Kissinger style than the Wilsonian style
of approach to international relations. So that was a pretty big issue too.

A third issue was NATO and them carrying their fair share of the burden. |
was intrigued by now-President Trump's ideas on all three: NATO, the Middle
East, Russia.

MR. SCHIFF: And on the subject of Russia as well as NATO, which of the
candidates for the foreign policy team did you discuss those two ideas?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think | discussed it with most of
them.

MR. SCHIFF: So you discussed --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSION: What two ideas? You mentioned --

MR. SCHIFF: Russia and NATO.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes. | think we discussed it pretty
much with all of them, because we were talking about a shift in our normal

strategic thinking to a more realist Kissinger-type approach, where we accepted

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correct, and | stand by them.

MR. GOWDY: Mr. Schiff made reference to a tweet. | don't follow the
President as closely, perhaps, as | should on social media, so | was not aware of
that until my friend from California made reference to it.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | heard it briefly this morning, but I'm
not to the bottom of it.

MR. GOWDY: Well, I've got it here. It is difficult to unlock the mysteries
of the world in 140 characters. Sometimes these issues are a little more complex.

| have zero interest in discussing an ongoing probe. | try really hard not to
ask you or either of your two predecessors about ongoing probes because you
can't talk about them, and it's not fair to make you say you can't talk about them.

On the other hand, | think it is legitimate for committees of oversight,
whether it is this committee or the House Judiciary or our brothers and sisters in
the Senate, to ask whether or not the world's premier law enforcement agency
relied upon certain information in court filings, and whether or not they vetted,
corroborated, contradicted, or otherwise investigated that underlying information
before they presented it to a court.

So to the extent that Members of Congress really believe that that's a
legitimate oversight function, if you are recused from Russia matters, to whom do
we address our concerns if we are not satisfied with the depth, breadth, and pace
of those productions?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, let me explain it this way to all
of you. Once | recused myself from the campaign and email issue, | did that
because the Code of Federal Regulations said that if you are in -- play a role as a

leader in a campaign, an official in a campaign, you can't -- in the Department of

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | can't recall for certain. Of course, |
talked to Dr. Keith Payne, | believe. Maybe just by phone, but | think | may have
talked to him personally. | talked to Jeff Miller several times, and maybe
personally. It's conceivable | met others, but | don't have a specific recollection of
it, when and where that would have occurred.

MR. SCHIFF: With respect to the robust foreign policy ideas that Stephen
Miller represented you had been discussing with these folks, do you recall any
robust foreign policy ideas that you were in discussion with prior to the
announcement of the President's team?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes. | think now-President Trump
raised a number of important issues. And for some of them, it represented a
movement in my thinking. My thinking had already been moving.

One of them was, we were too deeply involved in the Middle East, in terms
of trying to create democracies where that's not practical. | had been a total
strong advocate of President Bush, and defended him as one of the top defenders
in the Senate. But! began to wonder if this was good and were we making
progress, considering, for example, Syria and the disaster that's turned out to be,
the difficulties we're having now, and the people of Libya are having now.

And President Trump was even more aggressive about Iraq, which | had
always supported, but | thought he was making some valid points. He believed
we could do better --

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Let me just finish, because this is
pretty important to me.

MR. SCHIFF: But my time is limited, so | want to make sure that my

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collusion, coordination, conspiracy, between Donald Trump that you're aware of
and the decision to publicize the proceeds from those hacks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: All right. I'm not talking about benefiting from unfortunate
things happening to political opponents.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: You mean the initial publish?

MR. GOWDY: |'m talking about the decision to publicize it.

MR. COOPER: WikiLeaks publication, is that it, Mr. Gowdy?

MR. GOWDY: If that's who the record says did it, yes.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay. No.

MR. GOWDY: So what I'm trying to establish is, if you weren't part of the
hack itself, and your testimony is no knowledge of the hacks before they
happened, the next pivot point to me is the decision from whoever committed the
hacks to publicize the information.

So that's the narrow area. Not the benefit from it, not the citing it after it
had been publicized, but it's hacked, it's in my possession, I've got to decide
whether to publicize it or not.

Do you have any evidence Donald Trump was part of the decision to
publicize the proceeds from those hacks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | do not.

MR. GOWDY: Do you have any evidence, regardless of the source,
regardless of whether or not you believed it at the time, did you hear anyone
discuss -- on the campaign, not Donald Trump, the official campaign -- publicizing
the proceeds of those two hacks, the initial publication,

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not the initial publication, no.

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | gave -- | have not given any thought
to that. I'm not -- this is a new thought that this had been proposed. So I've not
given any thought to it, and did not at the time. | was not asked about it, to my
knowledge, and made no opinion about it.

MR. SCHIFF: Were you aware of any effort or any contrary thinking within
the campaign that it would be beneficial to the campaign to have lower level
people approach Russia in Moscow, because they could do it in a more discreet
manner than the candidate?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: . | don't recall any discussion about
that.

MR. SCHIFF: When did you first come into contact with Carter Page?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | believe he was -- was he at the
Trump Hotel event? We got that picture. | forgot whether he was there or not. |
don't have the picture with me.

MR. SCHIFF: I don't believe he is in the photograph.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't --

MR. SCHIFF: Not in the photograph | have, anyway. And --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | had heard of Carter Page through, |
suppose, probably J.D. Gordon or my chief as somebody who wanted to help in
the campaign. | was not -- | had no belief that he was a heavyweight person that
added a great deal to our effort, such as Jeff Miller or Dr. Keith Payne would do.

MR. SCHIFF: So when is the first contact that you do recall with Dr. Page?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | see his testimony is that he was at
the dinner that | hosted for the team, and that he said he spoke to me as he left. |

had not -- | would not have recalled that until | saw that testimony. So1/ don't

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was when you read about his criminal information?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | don't recall right now any
other information about that, unless it was published.

MR. SCHIFF: So no one in the administration alerted you that
Mr. Papadopoulos had been in contact with Federal agents?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall it.

MR. SCHIFF: In the criminal information, Mr. Papadopoulos mentions
meeting with a professor in Italy who had contact with Russian authorities. Were
you aware that he had met someone who has been referred to as the professor
prior to your reading the criminal information?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so. | do recall that he
suggested he had contacts, and he could use those contacts, to further the Trump
campaign in some way with Russian officials. | just felt like | didn't know enough
about this person, and that he should be, in any way, authorized, empowered to
go out and negotiate anything like this, and so that's why | pushed back pretty
hard.

MR. SCHIFF: In the criminal information -- let me ask you this way: Were
you ever made aware that Mr. Papadopoulos was informed that the Russians had
Democratic or Hillary Clinton emails?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, other than the media.

MR. SCHIFF: So prior to reading it in the media, no one during the
campaign informed you that the Russians had communicated to
Mr. Papadopoulos that they were in possession of stolen emails?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so. Not -- go ahead.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, Mr. Attorney General, you say you don't believe so.

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He went on to explain that he had spoken with you and your military
advisers about, quote, "some robust foreign policy ideas" that same day shortly
before arriving for the interview.

Do you recall the discussion of that day on March 17th with Mr. Miller and
the military advisers?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That there was a meeting on March
17th?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. The meeting that Mr. Miller was referring to, in which
he said that you had been meeting for hours putting together a team of foreign
policy advisers, military experts, and intelligence experts.

Why don't | ask you this way: Had you been meeting for hours that day
with foreign policy advisers, military experts, and intelligence experts?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | had talked with quite a number of
people that | thought might be interested in being a part of the Trump advisory
team. It was nota large group. A number of hours was spent on that. Most of
the foreign policy experts had already chosen sides. On the Republican side, Jeb
Bush had the vast majority of them. So we had a smaller group, but | did talk to
them.

| don't recall at this point a specific meeting that may have occurred
that -- suggested by Mr. Miller's statement. We may have had some smaller
meetings, but | don't recall any big meeting at this time.

MR. SCHIFF: His comment seemed to suggest that there was a long
discussion on March 17th with either people who were candidates to be military
advisers to the campaign or actual advisers to the campaign. Do you know which

they were?

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about a campaign.

MR. QUIGLEY: Well, let's just talk about what wasn't leaked. Donald
Trump Jr. released certain exchanges that he acknowledged that he had and the
meeting. Were you aware of any of those?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, not when they happened.

MR. QUIGLEY: Any communication that Jared Kushner might have had --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. QUIGLEY: -- or connection?

A gentleman named Peter Smith?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't think | know Peter Smith.

MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. Roger Stone?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. QUIGLEY: Alexander --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't know about Roger Stone,
what's in the papers, but | never talked to him about it.

MR. QUIGLEY: You weren't aware of any communication he might have
through an intermediary or otherwise?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Right. Nothing other than press
reports.

MR. QUIGLEY: And Alexander Nicks, same question?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I'm not sure who he is.

MR. QUIGLEY: Thank you.

MR. ROONEY: One minute.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Attorney General, who is Frank Mermoud,

M-e-r-m-o-u-d?

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Would | have a basis --

MR. SCHIFF: -- then you don't have to speculate.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Would | have a basis predicated
upon communications between the Attorney General and the President of the
United States?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. And I'm not asking you to disclose communications.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, then that is, in fact, a
disclosure, in my opinion, and | would be unable to provide that information.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, that is far from anything within the scope of executive
privilege. [I'm not asking about the content of the conversation.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It's a communication between the
Attorney General and the President; and according to long-established
Department of Justice policies, those communications are not to be revealed,
absent some appropriate request.

MR. SCHIFF: And Iam not asking you to reveal the communications. |
am asking you whether you have a basis, and you are refusing to answer the
question. And I'll have to leave it at that.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | would just -- you know, | want to be
open with you, but | feel like it does amount to revelation of a communication to
speculate on that, because all | could do is speculate.

MR. SCHIFF: Let me ask you this: Did the President ever instruct you to
take any action that you believe would have resulted in hindering the investigation
into the Russian interference in our election?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: He's not instructed me to do anything

improper, directed that that happen.

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that he may have said that, but it didn't register to me and | didn't respond,
apparently, according to him.
MR. SCHIFF: Have we provided the exhibit?

ME Ys. <i.

MR. SCHIFF: How much time do | have left?

HR 1.0 minutes, sir.

MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Let me turn to a separate matter and I'll come back
to that when we have another opportunity.

Mr. Attorney General, last night, Fox News ran an evening segment saying
it was in possession of an internal memo from the committee calling on the
chairman to pursue congressional compliance actions against DOJ and FBI for not
releasing documents and withholding an FBI witness, and recommending that the
House pursue contempt citations.

A couple hours later the President tweeted: The House of Representatives
seeks contempt citations, question mark, against the Justice Department and the
FBI for withholding key documents and an FBI witness which could shed light on
surveillance of associates of Donald Trump. Big stuff. Deep State. Give-this
information now. @FoxNews.

Attorney General Sessions, do the President's tweets, including last night's
tweets, in your view, constitute a directive to you, as Attorney General, or to the
Justice Department?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, | don't consider that a directive to
the Department of Justice.

HR Ore minute.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | -- I'm not sure | fully

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Mr. Phares, do you recall having any conversations with any of those three on this
subject, that is, having a different relationship, a more positive relationship with
Russia, prior to their being announced as a part of the President's team?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not individually, but that's likely. |
don't recall specific individual conversations with them. Perhaps with Dr. Keith
Payne, because | sought his advice. | asked a number of people -- | personally
asked a number of people, did -- how they felt about these issues, so | could
perhaps share thoughts with Mr. Trump, what kind of feedback we would get from
those kind of changes in foreign policy, although | did not, on a regular basis, brief
Mr. Trump about those matters.

MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss with the President, prior to his
announcement of the foreign policy team, who -- to sit on it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, it went something like this. I'll
just tell you how it went. After | endorsed Mr. Trump, | talked to Corey
Lewandowski and | asked him if it would be appropriate for me to talk to some
people that | knew -- many were Bush foreign policy experts -- and get their views
about foreign policy. And he said, oh, yes.

The next day he calls back, we want you to head the defense team. That's
kind of how that went. You're supposed to go out and find some people to
endorse us and head our defense team, basically. And -- but that wasn't so easy,
frankly. | was a United States Senator with a lot more to do. | probably should
have said no. But! did want to help, and so | set about to get people.

So J. D. Gordon, | believe, was helping, and Sam Clovis was helping.
Others were talking. And we were trying to just -- | didn't interview people to say,

do you meet high standards? We didn't do background checks on people before

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't remember that.

MR. ROONEY: Do you have any other -- did you have any other contacts
with Carter Page, assuming that happened, before or after that that you can
recall?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall him before or after that.
It's possible before, but | don't -- I'm pretty certain not afterwards.

MR. ROONEY: Did you know who he was, just generally, aside from a
name on a page on a list that you were given?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It seems like | was told he was in the
oil business, or was that Papadopoulos? |'ve forgotten which. But they had
some background internationally, and he had some foreign policy background that
would justify him apparently being on the committee. But! never considered him
or Mr. Papadopoulos a -- the kind of foreign policy adviser that would reach a high
level.

MR. ROONEY: Why?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | didn't feel like either one
had -- apparently had a background of significance that would indicate that they
had contributions to make.

MR. ROONEY: So them being on this team, was it just simply because we
needed -- or you needed names on a list or you needed to refute the narrative out
there that, you know, the Trump campaign is thin and doesn't have sort of like the
gravitas of Bush and Rubio or --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That's the best we could do at the
time.

MR. ROONEY: So is there a difference -- | know Mr. Schiff was referring

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and also has criticized you for repeatedly not investigating Hillary Clinton or leaks.

And | want to ask you, Mr. Attorney General, has President Trump ever
discussed with you the need to investigate and prosecute individuals suspected of
sharing information with the press?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That calls for a conversation
between the Attorney General and the President of the United States, and I'm not
at liberty at this time to discuss that.

MR. COOPER: And | want to add as well that it's not clear to me, anyway,
how that question ties back into the publicly announced parameters of the
investigation of the committee.

MR. SWALWELL: The fourth parameter of our investigation is what
possible leaks of classified information took place; and the third primary is what is
the U.S. Government's response.

But did anyone, at the behest of the President, pressure you or express to
you the desire for the President to have you investigate individuals for sharing
information with the press?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Confidentiality rules, according to the
long-established procedures of the Department of Justice, do encompass top
advisers to the President. So, to the extent it calls for that conversation, kind of
conversation, | would not be able to discuss it at this time.

MR. SWALWELL: Just so I'm clear, Mr. Attorney General, with respect to
any directives from the President or his aides on leaks, you are refusing to answer
any communications that-may have occurred?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: To the extent it calls for me to reveal

a conversation with the President of the United States or his top staff, yes, at this

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | just said my first Senate committee,
| requested that be open. Or actually, the way it went was they suggested open.
We suggested closed. They agreed to closed, and then | said, let's just make it
open. | believe that's the way that went.

MR. COOPER: | believe it is.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: So! was just saying, I've had
20-some odd hours of open testimony about this publicly.

MR. COOPER: And we do not want to depart from the committee's
practice thus far of maintaining confidentiality of these proceedings, the way Mr.
Page did.

MR. SCHIFF: Well, we are departing later this afternoon with a different
witness, which is part of the reason I'm asking the question.

MR. COOPER: Okay. We weren't aware of that.

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. The other hearing today will be a published transcript.

| yield to Mr. Swalwell.

MR. SWALWELL: Thank you, Mr. Schiff.

Thank you, Mr. Attorney General.

Is it fair to say that the last time you spoke with Mr. Papadopoulos was at
that March 31st meeting? Is that your testimony today?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | have seen somewhere that he was
at the dinner later, and so | would have conversed with him at least in some way at
that time.

MR. SWALWELL: So your testimony is --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall any other postdinner

discussion with Mr. Papadopoulos.

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they agreed to help us and didn't function in the most effective way, in all honesty.
| feel like | -- | think a person that had more time and ability could probably have
done a better job with that committee than | did.

MR. SCHIFF: But did you, Mr. Attorney General, talk to the
then-Candidate Trump about the candidates to be on this foreign policy team prior
to his announcing them?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | discussed it with him.
| could have, but it would be very general and cursory.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you know where he would have gotten the final list of
names as to who was vetted by you and Mr. Gordon and Mr. Clovis or others prior
to his announcement of them?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think J. D. Gordon was trying
to -- I'm sure sharing that information. Maybe also my chief of staff, Rick
Dearborn, may have had information that they shared with the names.

Our first challenge was to get a group of people that would publicly
announce for him. And that was the meeting at the Trump Hotel here. It
was -- had some talented people on it, some with not very much name ID, but it
was the best we could do at the time.

MR. SCHIFF: And do you recall how Mr. Papadopoulos came to be part of
the team?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | actually don't. I'm not sure where
his name came from.

MR. SCHIFF: And you don't know whether you spoke with him before he
was named to the team?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall whether | talked to him

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Did candidate Trump ever discuss with you that
General Flynn would be handling any communications with the Russians? So
this is candidate Trump or President-Elect Trump.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe we ever discussed
that.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you aware that General Flynn was in contact with
Russians or handling that profile for the campaign or the transition team?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: When Ambassador Kislyak visited your office on
September 8th, you mentioned discussing with him something that had been
brought up the day prior by the Ukrainian Ambassador, but at this time on
September 8th, it was now widely known that the Russians were interfering in the
2016 election. Is that right?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, there were allegations there. |
had no information and -- and could give it only the credence that you'd give toa
news report.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you address those allegations with Ambassador
Kislyak?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: Why not?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It didn't seem appropriate. | didn't
know anything about it.

MR. SWALWELL: Candidate -- President Trump has routinely tweeted or

expressed publicly that you should investigate his former opponent, Hillary Clinton,

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that you say everything correctly that it does take preparation and some worry
about these things. And so I'd be glad to wrap it up. I'm like -- I'm already at
26 hours before today, so I'm pushing 30 hours of testimony, only this has been
closed. So I'm prepared to continue.

MR. ROONEY: We appreciate you being here.

Eric, you're up.

MR. SCHIFF: | don't know, Eric, if you had a few more along that line, or if
not, we'll --

MR. SWALWELL: |'ll pass it back to you, Adam.

MR. SCHIFF: Why don't we go in sequential order and get as much of this
as we can.

Mr. Attorney General, | want to go back to the time when the President was
candidate Trump, and ask you whether you had any conversations with the
President about the Intelligence Community's assessment that was made public in
October that the Russians had hacked the Democratic emails and was releasing
them as part of a Putin-directed effort. Did you have any discussions with
then-candidate Trump about that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so. Let's see now,
you're talking about in October it became --

MR. SCHIFF: In October, the Intelligence Community made it official.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay.

MR. SCHIFF: It was fairly widely known before that point, so let me break
it up. Prior to the Intelligence Community's assessment, did you have any
discussions with candidate Trump about the likelihood that Russia was behind

both the hacking and the dumping of the emails that he was relying on so

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, | would say there are a lot of
things that could have been done, but | think Attorney General Lynch probably
should have been afforded an opportunity to at least be confronted by the
concerns that Mr. Comey had.

He reports directly to the Deputy Attorney General, which is at that time |
guess Sally Yates. Certainly, that's his first direct supervisor. So he could have
talked to her. And Congress is not unavailable either if there's a real serious
matter | think that needed -- that can't be resolved.

But to just go out and announce a decision, violating a lot of rules. As you
know, of confirming the existence, particularly in detail of an investigation and
basically detailing all of this was pretty -- also violative of standards. Mr.
Rosenstein and | agreed before we -- he was nominated that we needed to restore
discipline in the Department of Justice, that we've got too many leaks, too much
talking about investigations. In the long run, it ends up in a problem bigger than
you expected, like Mr. Comey found himself in.

So maintaining discipline in the long run is better, | believe, and trying not to
confirm even the existence of an investigation, because it gets you deeper and
deeper into the thicket. That was one of our goals. And there was an awful lot of
leaks coming out of somewhere.

MR. GOWDY: My time is about up, but it is not lost on me that Mr. Comey
identified another way of bringing something to light in 2017, which was the
dissemination of memos to a New York Times reporter via a professor friend.

And it is equally not lost on me -- and he did so, by his own admission, to trigger
special counsel. He did not make that decision in 2016, when others were calling

for special counsel to look into certain matters. That was also available to him as

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MR. SCHIFF: Will you answer the question whether he instructed you to
take any action that you believe would have hindered the Russia investigation in
any way? Will you answer the question?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: |'ll just answer the question, I'll give
you the answer again | just gave. | think that's a -- the more you go into this, the
more you're just asking for me to discuss communications in detail that I'm not
going to do today, Mr. Schiff. And you understand that. I've been five
committees, 25 hours of testimony, and | have not revealed private conversations
between me and the President of the United States, and | don't intend to do so
today.

MR. SCHIFF: Then | will take it that you will not respond to the question
whether you were ever asked to hinder the Russia investigation by the President,
and | will yield to Mr. Castro.

MR. CASTRO: Attorney General, you had some say in the decision about
whether Mr. Comey should be fired even after you had recused yourself from the
Russia investigation. |s that correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. CASTRO: You acknowledge that in his role as head of the FBI,

Mr. Comey played a role in the Russia investigation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Yes.

MR. CASTRO: You acknowledge that you might have been called as part
of this investigation?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: It's possible.

MR. CASTRO: Yet you still chose to have a hand in his firing.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: The director of the FBI supervises

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Lewandowski, and perhaps others, explaining that he had met with his good
friend, the professor, who had introduced him to a female Russian national and the
Russian Ambassador in London.

Did Mr. Clovis or anyone else on the campaign, Mr. Lewandowski or
Mr. Manafort or others, ever inform you of that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so. In other words,
he communicated to them? I'm not familiar with this email. Would you repeat it
again?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes. Mr. Papadopoulos, after the March 24th meeting,
emailed Sam Clovis, along with other members of the campaign.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: March 24th, is that the Trump Hotel
meeting you're referring to?

MR. SCHIFF: Yes.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay. | havea timeline. Okay, go
ahead. So after that he emails Sam Clovis?

MR. SCHIFF: He emailed Sam Clovis, Mr. Lewandowski, Mr. Manafort,
potentially others, about meeting with Russian nationals, and claimed that the
meeting topic was arranging a meeting between us and the Russian leadership to
discuss U.S.-Russia ties under President Trump.

Mr. Clovis responded that he would work it through the campaign and
added, Great work. Did Mr. Clovis ever communicate that information to you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so. It's conceivable.
| know -- | do recall from the meeting at the hotel, he claimed they have contacts
with Russia so -- that he could call on in some way. But | don't -- | certainly had

no communication with Mr. Clovis about urging him to go and do any specific

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time.

MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Attorney General, on October 25th DOJ announced
its decision to release William Campbell, the so-called Uranium One deal
informant, from his nondisclosure agreement. The next day, Fox News reported
that the directive for the Justice Department to lift a gag order on a former FBI
informant involved in a high-profile Russia bribery case came from President
Trump himself, a source told Fox News.

Were you involved in any communication from Trump or White House
Officials in advance of DOu's decision to release William Campbell, the so-called

Uranium One deal informant, from his nondisclosure agreement?

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to be active, and we accepted them. But! did not have a lot -- any particular
personal conversations and directions -- interactions with Mr. Page or
Mr. Papadopoulos, to my knowledge.

MR. SCHIFF: So you may have spoken to Mr. Papadopoulos prior to that
March meeting, but you don't have a specific recollection?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think that's fair to say.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Attorney General, at that March meeting, | think you
indicated that you did not believe that Mr. Papadopoulos' suggestion that he
undertake meetings with Russians as a representative of the campaign was a
good idea. Did you express that at the meeting, or was that just a private view
that you held as you listened to Mr. Papadopoulos?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, | expressed it. Actually, |
thought it would be healthy for everybody to hear it. This committee was not any
serious -- a group of people authorized to speak for President Trump, and they
absolutely weren't authorized to go around the world pretending to represent him.

So | just thought it was a good statement to make quite clear. But! was
worried about the tone of his remarks, so it was a response to what he said.

MR. SCHIFF: And what worried you about the tone of his remarks?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, he just indicated that, well, I've
got contacts in Russia and | can go over there and set up things on behalf of the
Trump campaign. And | didn't think that was a good thing.

MR. SCHIFF: Was Mr. Manafort present at that meeting?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SCHIFF: Did anyone speak up with a contrary view?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | did.

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | would note that IG's information
is -- under the rules, gets made public, their reports more than FBI investigations
could make probably.

MR. ROONEY: Mr. Sessions, do you need a break?

MR. COOPER: Yes, he does.

MR. ROONEY: Five minutes.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Okay. Thank you. | do actually.

[Recess.]

| Fifteen minutes of questioning for the minority.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Attorney General, | just want to follow up quickly on
some of the general questions you were asked about collusion or coordination. In
your opinion as a prosecutor, if a foreign power were to offer its assistance in a
presidential campaign, and the campaign were to accept that assistance, is that
potential evidence of collusion or coordination that might violate a conspiracy law
involving U.S. elections law?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | really don't know. I've not
researched that. | don't know where the line should be drawn, so | have not
researched it.

MR. SCHIFF: You certainly wouldn't advocate a presidential campaign
accepting the assistance of a foreign adversary power, would you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. | think this Congress has a right
to investigate that, and if laws are violated, so be it; if it's a bad policy, that should
be identified.

MR. SCHIFF: With respect to the particular offer of assistance in the form

of derogatory information that was made as a preliminary to the Trump Tower

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can't recall on the trips | took with Mr. Trump or otherwise for campaign events, |
don't recall him being on one of those trips.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Flynn --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't know how | got -- where | saw
him, but it wasn't often and we did not -- this committee did not coordinate our -- at
least he may have talked to J.D. or Sam Clovis, but he wasn't talking to me about
the committee. And | did not report to him. | don't believe | ever sent a single
memo to him about anything we did.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Flynn ever discuss Ambassador Kislyak with
you or that he knew Ambassador Kislyak?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Flynn ever discuss any relationships or
communications he had with other Russians besides Mr. Kislyak with you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you aware that Mr. Flynn and Mr. Kushner met
with Ambassador Kislyak in December of 2016?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you aware that --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: What meeting was that? Has that
been made public or something? | don't -

MR. SWALWELL: Were you aware of any meeting?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: |'m not aware of it. | don't think -- a
lot of these things I've seen published, but | don't recall knowing that one way or

the other.

MR. SWALWELL: Were you aware that iy

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include links between Russia and individuals associated with political campaigns
or any other U.S. person. So! guess, were you aware of any active measures by
the Russians and individuals associated with the Trump campaign or any other
U.S. person?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: To transmit or share or improperly
obtain data? Is that what you're referring to?

MR. ROONEY: Exactly.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, | was not.

MR. ROONEY: The third bullet is, what was the U.S. Government's
response to these Russian active measures, and what do we need to do to protect
ourselves and our allies in the future?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, we've got a number of things to
do: One, plainly, is about the election process. | have urged, and the FBI is
working on -- and our Deputy Attorney General is working on, assuring that there's
no system by which actual vote tallies can be manipulated. The FBI said they

were not in this last election.

We need to set up a better software review system. (i)
So you could have software that has problems.

And then you've got the question of intervening some way through false
information, or disinformation to impact a campaign. So those are three things
that | believe we as a country need to focus on and do a better job about.

MR. ROONEY: | think -- this is my opinion, but I think the most important

of those is obviously the integrity of the ballot. Is there anything that you can do

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thing.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Manafort forwarded --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe Mr. Clovis shared that
with me.

MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Manafort forwarded the email to Rick Gates with a note
that said: "We need someone to communicate that DT is not doing these trips. It
should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal."

Do you recall that communication? Did anyone ever share that with you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | ever saw that and
had not heard that until today.

MR. SCHIFF: How many interaction did you have with Mr. Manafort during
the campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Not much.

MR. SCHIFF: Did Mr. Manafort --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Before the Convention, we were
worried about the delegates at the convention. There were efforts to, you know,
undermine Trump delegates. And so Mr. Manafort had been experienced in
managing conventions for Ronald Reagan even, a number of them. So there
were some discussions about delegations and rules that | had some conversations
with Mr. Manafort about.

MR. SCHIFF: In the context, did you have any conversations with Mr.
Manafort about the Ukraine language in the party platform?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | did not. | had one conversation
with him about the Ukraine at Trump Tower, when he -- it had been in the papers

that he had improperly or he had supported a candidate that was not the United

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President Trump was inaugurated in January of 2017, and Mr. Comey was
dismissed from service in May of 2017. If the decision to dismiss Mr. Comey was
based on decisions he made in May of 2016, why was he not dismissed the day of
the inauguration?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, the President basically gets to
decide who should be the FBI Director. Mr. Rosenstein, when | talked to him
about being my deputy, and | had talked about Mr. Comey's performance. And
we both felt a fresh start was appropriate. And -- but the matter -- at some point,
we were requested to make a recommendation, and we made that
recommendation.

MR. GOWDY: Had you recommended it -- while Director Comey may
have made errors, they were not job-killing errors, do you believe that
recommendation would have been accepted also and he would still be the FBI
director?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, there was a complication, an
aggravation to it because not long before, | submitted my message with Rod
Rosenstein's letter to President Trump. He reaffirmed that he believed he did the
right thing just a few weeks before that. That was areal concern. | remember
Rod was very concerned about that, that he said | did the right thing. I'd do it
again, | believe, is what he said.

And then that was so directly contrary to Department of Justice policy that
the FBI Director, or the local special agent in charge, doesn't decline a case.
When this is to the core of order, Rod referred to it as a usurpation of the Attorney
General's authority for the FBI Director to do that. And so that's -- kind of made it

worse. And that highlighted it again.

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transition period, did he ever express his view or react in your presence to a
counterintelligence brief he received from then-FBI Director Comey regarding the
Steele dossier?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: That would -- prior to his --

MR. SWALWELL: So on January 6, 2017, James Comey has testified that
he conveyed the details of the Steele dossier to President-Elect Trump. And so
between January 6, 2017, and January 20 when he became President, did
President-Elect Trump convey to you any thoughts on the dossier or James
Comey?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't think so.

MR. SWALWELL: Did he -- did President-Elect Trump convey to you any
views or intentions regarding Congress' investigation into Russia's election
interference?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so. Of course, I'm
focusing on the time before he became President.

MR. SWALWELL: Did President-Elect Trump convey any views to you
prior to becoming President in the transition period about views, intentions, or
direction regarding investigating Hillary Clinton?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe so.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it possible that he could have?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: 1 don't think so.

MR. SWALWELL:. Is that something you would have remembered if he
asked you to investigate Hillary Clinton as soon as you became Attorney General?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think so, certainly if it was any kind

of adirective. But as | recall, during that period of time, he made the statement

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't.

MR. SWALWELL: You don't recall or you weren't a part of --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall. I'm not saying it didn't
happen. It could have happened in some of these vetting exercises or our
discussions about who might be a good Secretary or Assistant Secretary or intel
leader.

MR. SWALWELL: Do you accept the Intelligence Community assessment
as to Russia being responsible for interfering in the campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | have no reason to reject that
assessment. | assume it's correct.

MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Are you aware of anyone other than President
Trump in the administration who rejects the assessment?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | am not sure -- | can't assert for
certain what he's said about that.

MR. SWALWELL: Are you familiar with anyone else who questions the
assessment in the administration?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | am not. | think his last comment
may have been he had high confidence in the Intel Community about the subject.
MR. SWALWELL: Thank you. | yield back to the ranking member.

MR. SCHIFF: Yield back.

MR. ROONEY: We're adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the interview was concluded.

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ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No. | don't know exactly what he's
referring to there, frankly. We were talking to a number of people. | had been
asked to put together a team that would be an advisory team. | think it was
important, that Mr. Trump and his advisers felt that it was important to have people
of some experience to be supportive of him, and we did what we could.

MR. SCHIFF: For context, this would have taken place four days before
the President, then-Candidate Trump, announced his foreign policy team.

Do you recall who you met with prior to that announcement? Were you
interviewing potential candidates to be on that foreign policy team?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | had talked to a number of people,
mostly by phone. And it was not so much of an interview; it was more of a, Would
you join us, for people that had some experience in the area that could be helpful
to the campaign or to the nominee, or potential nominee, the candidate.

MR. SCHIFF: So you don't recall having a --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall a specific meeting, Mr.
Schiff. | could go back and think about that. | would be glad to supplement the
record. But | don't recall that, although it could have happened.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether, prior to the announcement of the
foreign policy team four days later on March 21st, you had met George
Papadopoulos?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't recall first meeting with
Mr. Papadopoulos.

MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall whether you spoke with him on the phone
prior to his being announced as one of the foreign policy advisers?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't, actually. There were a

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MR. SWALWELL: My question is, did you have any information prior to
Mr. Papadopoulos' public guilty plea that he had been contacted by the FBI?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't think so. | would --

MR. SWALWELL: Did you have any secondhand information or was there
talk among anyone that you were around that Mr. Papadopoulos had been
contacted by the FBI?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | can say with certainty that | have no
information from inside the FBI investigation.

MR. SWALWELL: My question is about —~

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | just want to say that.

MR. SWALWELL: Sure.

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: And | don't think anybody else -- I'm
confident that no one else told me that this was going to happen.

MR. SWALWELL: And, again, I'm not talking about that the plea was
going to happen. I'm going back to in January and February and even later in
July, Mr. Papadopoulos was contacted by the FBI. At any point before the plea,
did you have knowledge that Mr. Papadopoulos had been contacted by the FBI?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't believe | knew he'd ever been
contacted.

MR. SWALWELL: Is it something that is possible, though, just like it's
possible that you could have talked to him after the Capitol Hill Club dinner?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't think so. | don't think that
happened.

MR. SWALWELL: Did you sign an NDA with the Trump campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No, | don't think so.

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emails. There are tweets about Roger Stone about John Podesta is soon-to-be in
the barrel.

| don't expect you to tell us what other people were thinking when they
tweeted things, but was there ever a conversation you had with candidate Trump
about the dissemination of information accessed during either the DNC server
hack or the Podesta email hack?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: Well, no. Now, if you mean by
dissemination was it quoted by Mr. Trump in some -- in a speech or something
that came out of those leaks and hacking, it's conceivable some discussion was
made about the value of it, or the importance of it in a political campaign. But!
don't recall that.

MR. GOWDY: You make an important distinction. There is a difference
between passively benefiting from the fact that something bad may be happening
to someone that you're in a race against, and actively participating in making sure
something bad happens to someone that you're in a race against.

So there is the active measures and then the passive measures. So | don't
want to talk about the passive measures yet. | want to go back. The word
“collusion,” I'm not sure most people heard that word up until sometime in 2016,
but collusion, conspiracy, coordination, those three words, do they have
appreciably different meanings to you?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | think they're probably the same or
close to the same. Distinct, each is distinct, but they represent the same kind of
insight or observation of an event.

MR. GOWDY: Well, I'm going to use all three words, and if you think they

should be separated out in the question or the answer, I'm going to rely on you to

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(12:10 p.m.]

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. SWALWELL: To your knowledge, who was involved in that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: The decision would be made by the
Deputy Attorney General or the FBI Director.

MR. SWALWELL: And | understand the chain, but to your knowledge, who
actually made the decision?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't know. I'm not sure | know
how that actually occurred.

MR. SWALWELL: You weren't --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: But promptly -- my understanding is
promptly, Congress was advised that he would be made available. And --

MR. SWALWELL: Prior to the decision being made, you weren't informed
of it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: I've been cautious about it because it
could implicate areas of recusal for me, and therefore, I've been cautious about
involving myself in some of these matters. And | really don't know exactly how
that decision was made. | was glad that Congress could be accommodating.

MR. ROONEY: One minute.

MR. SWALWELL: Was -- you mentioned that you, yourself, had a
discussion with your staff about the use of ill-gotten emails, particularly, you
referenced the open borders speeches that you would get that had come from
some of those emails. Who else on the campaign, to your knowledge, discussed
how any of the hacked emails should be used in public commentary by the

campaign?

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MR. GOWDY: All right. Anyone not officially connected with the
campaign, hangers-on, wannabes, people who represented themselves as being
part of the campaign, but you didn't know who they wannabe were, were you
present for any meetings, did you hear about any meetings about how to maximize
the crime committed by someone else, accepting that you've already testified you
weren't part of it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: | don't think so, other than Mr. Stone
made some comments in the media.

MR. GOWDY: Did you have any conversations --

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: But | never -- | don't believe | ever
talked to Mr. Stone the whole time of the campaign, email, phone, or personally.

MR. GOWDY: Allright. In my head, the pivot points are the two hacks,
the dissemination, then there's been testimony and hearings about Russia's efforts
to infiltrate social media platforms. Do you recall any conversations with
President Trump about how to collude, conspire, coordinate with the Russians with
respect to their social media efforts?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Same question, but not Mr. Trump, anyone in the official
campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Same question, not Mr. Trump, not the official campaign,
anyone unofficially connected with the campaign?

ATTORNEY GENERAL SESSIONS: No.

MR. GOWDY: Mr. Rooney asked you about a couple of names in

particular, but | want to just ask you an open question. Carter Page, what is the

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