Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access Realtime Translation

(CART) system used in the Communications Subcommittee Meeting #7 and is generally

unedited. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with

hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available

to the public on the internet during the meeting.

1

x-----------------------------------------x

: UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD :

: RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE :

x-----------------------------------------x

COMMUNICATIONS SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING #7

TELECONFERENCE

*DRAFT TRANSCRIPT*

Thursday, August 7, 2014

1:00 p.m.

Staff Location: United States Access Board

1331 F Street, NW, Suite 1000

Washington, DC 20004

Reporter: Sandra Gartrell
2

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

PAUL BEATTY: We have an agenda. Everybody should

have received it by email as well as it is posted on the

RVAAC website. So we are ready to start. I want to welcome

everybody to the seventh meeting of the Communications

Subcommittee.

As you know, anybody may participate in the

subcommittee discussions so no time of public comment has

been scheduled during this two-hour call.

As you know, we do have CART, but at this point

we have not brought up the CART link. So we are asking if

anyone participating only by using CART and they desire to

ask a question or make a statement, please alert us by

sending an email to RVAAC@access-board.gov. So that is

RVAAC@access-board.gov. Once we have the chat box up, we

will be able to monitor that and let you know at that

time.

When speaking, please remember to give your name.

As a reminder, this is our last subcommittee call

before our full Committee meeting in September. At this

point we have not planned the agenda completely.

TERRY PACHECO: Hello. This is Terry and I am

thinking we lost Paul, perhaps.

PAUL BEATTY: Paul's still here.
3

TERRY PACHECO: All of a sudden you went off in

the middle of a word.

PAUL BEATTY: Probably (inaudible).

TERRY PACHECO: Did you have anything else you

wanted to add, Paul?

PAUL BEATTY: Now I shifted to another microphone.

Is this better?

<<<: Sounds good here.

PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. Battery must be going

dead on that one.

I indicated that in the Access Board conference

room we have Melissa and Lisa, myself and no other staff

members are present. Jim Pecht, regrettably, had another

function he was required to be at. Doing the webinar,

that's where Jim is.

I would like to go now to introductions on who is

on the line. If you could just state your name and what

organization you represent.

Go ahead. So chime in.

RALPH CARLSON: Ralph Carlson with Community

Transportation Association.

CRYSTAL LYONS: This is crystals Lyons with

Southwest Transit Association.

GLENN MILLIS: Glenn Millis, Washington

Metropolitan Transit Authority.
4

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: Janice Schacter-Lintz

from Hearing Access Program.

CALVIN GIBSON: Calvin Gibson, Federal Railroad.

DON FABIAS: Don Fabias with Multi-K Engineering

Services.

SHERYLYNN: Sherylynn with Federal Railroad

Administration.

LISE HAMLIN: Lise Hamlin, Hearing Loss

Association of America.

This is Lise again. Andrew Phillips is also on

the line, he is looking at this through CART, National

Association of the Deaf.

PAUL BEATTY: That was Lise Hamlin.

TERRY PACHECO: And Andrew?

PAUL BEATTY: Andrew; okay.

TERRY PACHECO: I'm Terry.

PAUL BEATTY: Terry, can you hear me? This is

Paul Beatty.

TERRY PACHECO: Yes, Paul.

PAUL BEATTY: At this point I know we have Andrew

and Lise and Terry and Robert and Crystal on the line.

Anyone else on the line?

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Blair Slaughter from Amtrak.

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: I don't know if I

unmuted. I'm on the line as well.
5

PAUL BEATTY: Anyone else?

FRANK MALDARI: Frank Maldari, MTA, New York.

PAUL BEATTY: Anyone else? (Chime).

TERRY PACHECO: Sounds like someone else just

joined us.

PAUL BEATTY: At this point, Terry, I will turn it

over to you and take it from here.

TERRY PACHECO: Okay. Thank you, Paul. Hello to

everyone.

<<<: Hello.

TERRY PACHECO: It is hard to believe -- I can't

believe, this is our seventh meeting. In some ways it seems

like we have been working together forever and others I

would not have thought it would have been that.

As Paul pointed out, we only have one more

meeting. This is our second to last meeting before the

September 11 and 12 meeting with the Committee as a whole

in Washington. And looking over the issues and such from

way back in the original meetings in Washington, we have a

lot of work to still get done.

What I would like to do today -- I assume you

have all seen the email we sent out yesterday with the

agenda and that summary, principles. I think that

basically -- I just want to see if anyone had any comments

on the principles. I think that basically says what we
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have been striving for and what we have been using as a

prerequisite and how we have been handling making the

decisions we have on the information that is on the

updated table, Jim's updated table from our last meeting

and that is also included in this document.

I know a couple of people who sent me some emails

with some interesting things since then. I am sorry I

have not gotten back to you. I have had very intermittent

email over the last few days. We are doing some

remodeling in our house and at the moment the best thing I

have for email is my I-Phone and I am not good at that

little tiny keyboard to send things back. So you will all

be hearing from me, anybody that has written to me will be

hearing from me later in the week, hopefully when I get

Internet again.

The footnotes after the tables were the comments

that were sent in in the past. I added a couple of things

to them when I was rereading it recently. I think they

are pretty self-explanatory.

What I would like to know if anybody has any

comment on any of this at this point before we move on to

some of the other things that we need to be looking at by

September 11?

And hearing nothing, we can see that that is

completed. Some of the other issues have been completed.
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We still have several things to do and if you

look at Item 5-C on the agenda, those things I think we

need to discuss today are those numbers 1, 2 and 3. If we

can get through these, that will put us in much better

stead for the meeting on the 11th.

The first one is how to make stop request devices

in vestibules accessible. I would personally like to hear

from the rail folks on the call as to what you see the

future trains to have for stop request devices in the

vestibules, be it in the vestibules or at seating.

I would like to hear from any of you from the

various railroad companies on that. Anybody wants to take

the ball?

FRANK MALDARI: I'll try to answer from our point

of view here. The commuter railroads we typically -- there

aren't any stop request buttons or any way of indicating

such. I mean, it is standard station stops. What we do and

how we -- emergency access to the crew, if there is a need

to contact the crew for any reason, typically in the

vestibule area and typically a button activated switch that

connects you to a crew member in an operating cab.

TERRY PACHECO: And is that accessible with a

wheelchair and with a sign, raised lettering or braille or

something?

FRANK MALDARI: That is a good question and I was
8

looking at it closely.

Typically on the commuter rails -- I'm not sure

if you are familiar with our vestibules, but if you can

picture the vestibules, a windscreen as soon as you walk

in.

And typically all the equipment is usually toward

the car side, toward the wall side. So it is located on

the door side of the vestibule on the exterior wall.

There is currently a button there. It is pretty typical.

There is not enough room to put a sign that meets the

requirement for raised lettering and braille. It is

pretty my -- for the commuter rail it is pretty standard

in the size -- I will bring a picture with me when we come

to give you an idea.

And, you know, it is accessible. You know,

depending on if you happen to be in a wheelchair, you have

to maneuver it because it is toward the wall of the car,

toward the door, but it is accessible and you can access

it. The only thing that you really can't do or the only

thing that we don't currently do is have the raised

lettering and braille on there. Typically it is a

relatively small sign because it is a relatively small

panel and a relatively small area there. So it is

accessible, but the difficulty would be in trying to make

a sign big enough and fit it in the space that is
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available.

TERRY PACHECO: Roughly how much space is it?

FRANK MALDARI: It is about 3,6-inches, something

like that, about three to four inches wide and -- there is a

speaker button that lights after you push it. You push the

button, lights on and someone has to answer it in one of the

cabs and get back to you.

TERRY PACHECO: Something that is two or three

words like "crew connection" something like that, "to

contact crew", that can absolutely be done in raised

lettering or in braille, no problem?

FRANK MALDARI: If you put "crew connection",but

right now there is also instruction on how to operate it.

So it is push button, wait for crew to answer and then

speak, so it gets to be a lot.

TERRY PACHECO: I was thinking in a 3 x 6 area you

could get roughly in braille particularly, you can get about

10 or 12 words.

FRANK MALDARI: The whole panel is 3 x 6. I will

send a picture of the sign. You know, it just so happens

that is where it is located.

TERRY PACHECO: Right.

FRANK MALDARI: Not just a lot of real estate.

Typically a windscreen there and something on the

windscreen. I mean, it is just the way it is. Not to say
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it couldn't change. Like we said before, once you start

putting larger signs on there, it does change.

TERRY PACHECO: Right, I know. I was just

curious. Because with that kind of space you could get

eight to 10 words in braille, like a braille overlay on the

printing could work, as a possibility, as something that can

be done.

I think the thing we all need to keep in mind

with the recommendations we are coming up with, that we

are not looking at them so much for retrofitting as we are

so much for the future. It is just something that perhaps

could be done, you know, new in the future.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: I wanted to ask Frank, is that

emergency communication device, that's coming out of what

the FRA has mandated for emergency communication between

passenger and crew, right?

FRANK MALDARI: Yeah.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Okay, okay. So that device

functionally is already, you know, is on for new vehicles.

And, of course, from the Amtrak side we are in the same

situation that a lot of the rail companies are. We run on a

schedule and we don't have stop requests, but I think what

you would be -- if you look at some of your street cars and

trams and things like that, it is probably a little more

relevant.
11

TERRY PACHECO: Anyone else before I pick on

somebody?

LISE HAMLIN: I am wondering if somebody --

because it is not our purview, but I was wondering if

someone from my regulations could send me what the FRA regs

are on the emergency buttons. Because I'm wondering if

somebody who is deaf or hard of hearing pushes one of those

buttons, how they know someone is responding to them or

communicating with them. That's not a signage issue, so I

don't want to get distracted here.

If someone could send it to me offline, I would

really appreciate that.

TERRY PACHECO: And, you know, it may not be a

signage issue but it is a communication issue. That is a

very good point, I think.

LISE HAMLIN: Right, right.

DON FABIAS: This is Don. I'm representing Steve

Rowland with LTK.

Is it possible, listening to Frank, to be able to

have like a clear overlay over the existing sign, that

overlay has braille, you now, embossed or whatever on it,

but you can still look through it to see the regular

verbiage? That way it is not taking up additional space,

but taking up the same amount of space.

TERRY PACHECO: Overall, yes, it is very possible.
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It just depends on how much verbiage there is. It is very

common to see signage that has a braille overlay. It is

very doable, but, again, it does depend on how much verbiage

there is.

FRANK MALDARI: Yeah, but the current ADA

regulations -- Tom is your name?

DON: Don.

FRANK MALDARI: I'm sorry, Don. The current

verbiage for the sign require it to be in a different area

and it can't be overlaid. So when we are talking about

these things, you are referring back to an ADA standard, an

access standard, that requires the braille to be located in

an area separate from where the word is.

So, yeah, that is one of the things we had talked

about. That is why I was asking is braille important or

raised lettering. Because if braille is important --

because there are signs that we currently have that have

braille on them and still have small lettering. So you

can use the braille. But if you need braille, raised

lettering, that becomes a big sign.

And the point I was making at other times is if

you don't have the requirement associated with the

building standards where you have a lot of room and real

estate in which to put the signs, then it is a lot easier

to incorporate braille, for one thing. You just missed
13

the raised lettering and not have to make a sign that is

really big. That is the --

Now, for me, it all depends on the location. But

a lot of the signs are in a small area. Currently the

fonts are 3/7, inches you increase it to 5 inches and you

make it required and allocate a separate space for the

braille, which is currently required. You increase the

size of a decal four or five times and that kind of impact

is pretty big.

You know, putting braille on a decal, like you

said, if you make it an overlay, not a big deal, you know.

I mean, they do it now. It is not impossible. And does

it make it a little more difficult to read? Maybe. But

if you didn't have a large lettering that would save you

some.

Terry, is that a problem for you? If you think

you have the overlay with the braille over the writing

itself?

TERRY PACHECO: Well, there are a couple of

different ways in which to do it which greatly diminish the

problem. One of them is there are ways of putting braille

with print -- doing it almost like double spacing so that on

one line you have the braille and on the next line you have

the print. That is one possible way of doing it.

There are other also -- another thing that can be
14

taken into consideration is the color contrasting on your

print to begin with, the size and the color contrasting.

If you have got a beige background with white

lettering, that is going to be hard for anyone to read to

begin with and then you put braille on top of it, it makes

it more difficult.

Whereas if it was a beige background with black

lettering or bolded lettering, it may be a far easier

thing for someone to be able to read through with the

braille overlay.

FRANK MALDARI: And, generally speaking, our

standard is white lettering on a black background. That is

typically what we use at Long Island. For some reason the

TA uses the opposite. Is one better than the other from

your perspective?

TERRY PACHECO: Some people have a preference for

one over the other. I heard black background and white

foreground. I have heard that being used because it doesn't

show up graffiti easily.

FRANK MALDARI: Oh, that is one way of looking at

it.

TERRY PACHECO: I don't know. I heard that. I

wouldn't swear by it but that is my understanding.

CHRIS HART: Hey, you guys. It is Chris. I don't

know if (inaudible) is on the call, but pretty sizable
15

amount of research looking at why black on white or white on

black, all of that. Some of it was I believe, three, four,

five -- industry is trying to really backup the overall

conventional wisdom. I am not fully versed in that area.

We have to send something at some point.

TERRY PACHECO: Chris, that would be great. And

if you could connect me with the person that you're talking

about, I also have a doctor out in California who is

putting -- who is supposed to be putting some backup

information together for us as well. I had hoped that he

would have it done by today, but that didn't -- has not

happened. But he has committed to putting together a

considerable amount of information for us. I know he is

working with the -- he works for a low vision clinic out on

the West Coast and he is putting a lot of information

together for us that we can use for best practices and

potential requirement alterations.

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: When we were talking

about the email, the only thing I want to point out, I know

sometimes when I receive business cards that have braille,

sometimes I can't see the print because of the way the

braille is put on.

So I like the idea of putting the braille on a

separate line, like the double spacing, like Terry

suggested. We just have to be thoughtful that we put the
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braille in a way that it doesn't impair, then, the visual

images for people who don't need braille.

TERRY PACHECO: Absolutely. One of the issues on

why you have so much trouble reading business cards that

have braille on them is that business cards -- the print

tends to be in such small font. You rarely see a business

card with a font of more than 10 points, if that. That is

part of where your problem is with that, absolutely. That

is why I have not brailled my own cards because I have not

figured out how to solve the issue of putting braille on and

making it visible. The only stuff I have seen people will

put a sticker on back of a business card with everything in

braille on the back.

TERRY PACHECO: Yeah. And the other thing too is

perhaps not to use 8 or 10 point print. Anyway, we are

getting totally --

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: Just something to keep in

mind.

TERRY PACHECO: Yes. You are making a very good

point, Janice. Thank you.

I would like to ask one more question on this

issue of the emergency exits.

There was somebody and I know your last name is

Miller -- and your first name got me altogether -- from

WMATA. I think you would be good where subway cars are
17

concerned and you will be putting in the new trolleys in

D.C. Do you have anything you can add on the issue?

GLENN MILLIS: This is Glenn.

TERRY PACHECO: Glenn, thank you. I couldn't

think of your first name. Sorry.

GLENN MILLIS: That is fine. I think a lot of the

comments you heard before apply to subway cars. We have

scheduled stops, that is it. We try not to, but sometimes

we will stop in a tunnel. That is temporary.

We do have buttons for communication in our cars

for emergencies and they are accessible, they are

brailled. We have one at either end of the car and one at

the wheelchair parking area, at the middle door of the

car.

And, you know, the decision was made a long time

ago to put them in as many places as possible. But those

are for emergency purposes and I am not sure they do

provide a visual indication. But we do have signage there

and while anyone is in Washington you are free to look at

those. You will find them on the 6000 and 7000 series

cars. We do not have vestibules so that is actually quite

outside of our area.

On the trolleys, D.C. Government is going to

operate that at the moment. So I can't speak to that. I

have not actually seen those cars.
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TERRY PACHECO: All right. Thank you. I was

curious about them.

I know the ones on the train you are -- because I

had to use one recently when the doors closed before six

blind people finished getting off the train and we left a

few on the train and a few on the platform and they were

from all out of town and it came in very handy having the

emergency communication button.

Does anyone else have anything to add on that

subject?

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: I'm about to email to you the

link for the FRA requirement for the passenger emergency

intercom.

TERRY PACHECO: Okay. Great. Can you email it to

Lisa as well because I don't have email today.

CHRIS HART: Blair, can you send it to Paul so he

can keep track of it?

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: To the RVAAC.

CHRIS HART: Yeah.

TERRY PACHECO: Thank you, Blair.

FRANK MALDARI: One thing I wanted to note, I

think if you see the requirement you will see it has to be

readable in the dark, photoluminescent. And we changed it

to be photoluminescent in the dark. That adds more glow out

of the sign so you can actually read it in the dark.
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TERRY PACHECO: Okay. All right. The next

subject that was on here was the backup power to service

emergency notification devices.

Again, I think we -- I know for those of us who

are not in the design area, if we put -- if the signs were

on -- if everything that we put on our table was on the

vehicles today, what would happen in the case of a power

outage? You know, do trains have emergency backup power

for the notification systems? Anybody?

FRANK MALDARI: Typically our PA and stuff runs

off the car battery. So if you lose your main power, for

some reason, there is a backup, typically.

You know, as far as exactly what you lose, if you

lose main power, that's interesting question. I mean,

typically it is the third rail or overhead catenary power

or ATP coming across. In all those cases there is a

battery backup. I think that is the question you're

asking, typically there is.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Right now there in new

equipment there are requirements -- twofold. One with this

passenger intercom, there are requirements for, as you were

saying, backup power. It says backup power in the regs

under the FRA. There is a requirement for backup power for

the intercom systems going forward. And we, like Frank,

have the interest in all that has always been run off the
20

car battery.

But there is with new systems an increasing

concern that communication and emergency lighting have

battery systems that would take care of damage. And the

reason that is done because on most single levels the

batteries are underneath the car. So if you have a fairly

catastrophic incident where the car is on the ground or

rolling, you could lose those batteries. So there are

discrete batteries that are closer to the source of, in

most cases, the lights with the idea being if you cut the

car in half, you wouldn't lose those lights if their local

batteries were okay.

So I don't know if we want to get that involved,

but certainly there is a precedent out there for those

kind of backup systems, if they make sense.

TERRY PACHECO: So I guess -- I'm sorry, can you

hear me?

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: I can hear you.

TERRY PACHECO: I wasn't sure if I had muted

myself.

I guess what I'm saying -- what I'm suggesting --

and I'm wondering what the feeling is of the

subcommittee -- should we be making the recommendation

that the notification systems that we are recommending,

i.e., the induction loop system, any video system,
21

anything that is electronic, that is not a static sign, as

such, but a VMS, that type of thing, we should be

recommending a requirement that they be a part of the

emergency backup power system? Does that make sense to

folks?

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Can I read what the backup

power, PA and intercom systems?

TERRY PACHECO: Please.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: And this is from 49CFR Part

238.121, emergency communication. It says backup power: PA

and intercom system on Tier 1 passenger cars ordered on or

after April 1, 2008, placed in service for the first time

April 1, 2010. And all Tier II passenger cars should have a

backup power system capable of operating in all equipment

orientations within 45 degrees of vertical; two, operating

after the initial shock of a collision or derailment

resulting in the following individually applied

accelerations: longitudinal, 8g; lateral, 4g; and vertical

4g.

Part 3: Powering each system to allow

intermittent emergency communication for a minimum of 90

minutes. Intermittent communication shall be considered

equivalent to continuous communication during the last 15

minutes of the 90-minute period.

It is pretty good reg babble, as Dennis would
22

say.

The preservation of communication, was the intent

of this, so maybe the sanity is to piggyback onto that,

since we are talking about PA announcements should be

replicated.

The tough part is going to be if there is

emergency communications going on that gets us out of the

world of canned announcements. So that could be a little

tricky.

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: I think it makes sense

that it is a really good point that the loop should be on

the emergency backup. Because if the system goes down and

you can't hear the loop, if we are relying on that for

emergency announcements.

LISE HAMLIN: I would agree. I'm not an engineer,

but it would surprise me if loop system would draw a lot of

power. Maybe we should look into that kind of thing. I

would think it makes sense to piggyback.

We could also look whether a visual alerting

system, you know, what kind of power that draws and

whether it is realistic to also piggyback on the same kind

of emergency regulations that are out there.

TERRY PACHECO: Anyone have anything to say on the

opposite side?

Then it sounds like we are in agreement on this
23

issue.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Since we are talking about the

public address system and we are essentially saying that

anything that is going to be broadcast via the audible PA is

going to be part -- also broadcast on the hearing loop and

ideally individual messaging system as far as practical.

Obviously if you are in a true emergency situation that

might not work.

It would seem quite reasonable that if we extend

what a public address system from purely audible to

induction loop and visual, then it almost by default

connects itself back to this. That may be something that

our folks at the Access Board want to link back to the FRA

requirements for the PA so it matches and doesn't

conflict.

TERRY PACHECO: I think you make a good point. I

think you make a good point. I think we want to make sure

it -- that the FRA is strong as we are intending here. I

think that is the other side of it as well. We need to

meet -- I'm just not sure if we need to further clarify

that.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: I think the FRA is talking

about what traditional audible intercom systems and having

to be functional after an accident. And we are saying that

the audible information when it is emergency information,
24

largely, needs to be available in other formats. I think to

carry on that, you want that system to apply in the same

accident and continue working along with the audible PA.

TERRY PACHECO: Yes, yes. I am just not sure -- I

need to reread it again in black and white in front of me as

part of it. I'm not sure that is completely explained there

or if we don't need to add on -- to add a bit more on to it.

Making it clear that we do mean that it is not just implied

but it is absolutely.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: I think we need it as part of

our language, but how the -- when the Access Board folks

start writing the proposed rules, how that meshes so that we

don't end up with two different rules and want to say the

same.

There is also marking instructions for a

passenger emergency intercom and it talks about the

requirements for emergency signage for egress -- you will

see it so we don't have to linger on it. You will see it.

It is a fair amount of description that goes along with

everything about this. It at least gives a good

foundation of what we want to add for the visual and

induction loop systems.

TERRY PACHECO: Okay, great. Thank you, Blair.

FRANK MALDARI: Blair, getting back -- I just

stepped out and I heard you talking about the non-canned
25

messages.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Yes.

FRANK MALDARI: In an emergency situation that is

typically when you use the non-canned message because you

are not sure what you are going to say in a situation you

were not planning on.

I guess the question is for us it is no problem

to do speech to text conversion on the equipment that we

have and even the equipment that we would like to buy in

the future. So keeping those two tied together is a

problem now that I see and I just get worried about

regulations that will suggest that you have to do both.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Well, yeah, Frank, I was saying

I don't know if the system remains running, if there is --

if part of the VMS -- I will give you an example. We had

some signs at one time that were scrolling signs and they

would have messages about one thing and another for Amtrak

and every so often they would stop and say "exit this end"

or some safety message. That was always the default. So

maybe even that is, you know, something that could be

considered.

In an emergency situation voice to text is

probably going to be even worse because now you have a

crew in an emergency situation, depending on the severity

of it, the machines ability to translate may get even
26

worse.

So I don't know what the solution to that is, but

it does seem to make sense that carrying the induction

loop along since we would be dealing with audible, this

would be appropriate. And then maybe something that needs

to make sure -- especially if there is a dual purpose of

the VMS signs to include standard emergency information.

Say if a train passes through a dark situation where the

main power is off, you are on emergency power. If the

default position for the visual system is to direct where

emergency exits are, maybe that is one way of dealing with

that.

FRANK MALDARI: That is a good point. I am just

thinking it -- I think I have seen it on your equipment,

most of our equipment as well. You have the emergency

information sign, I have seen it on WMATA, where you are

giving out all the instruction of what you should do in an

emergency, usually a photoluminescent sign. If you lose

power, it says "wait for instruction from a crew member."

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Right. Just like on the

airline. It is key because we don't want folks abandoning a

train, which may be the safest place to be, being hurt by

other trains or wires or thing on the outside.

FRANK MALDARI: Exactly. If you are just

announcing this is the emergency exit and you don't want to
27

tell someone to go out that particular exit, we talked in

the past every entry that sways into the car is an exit but

maybe not the exit you want to go out -- I am not sure there

is a good canned message, I guess I'm saying. You can throw

on the signs that would be applicable in all situations.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: True.

GARY TALBOT: If I could chime in, I don't know if

Chris Hart is on the call but I can contact him offline.

We were looking to doing that very thing because

we knew we wanted dual mode. If someone grabbed a

microphone in an emergency that said, "Get off the vehicle

and evacuate", something like that, could there be

something they flip a button and the signs say the same

thing, whatever it is, evacuate? I think might be an

option as well, something like that, that may be

beneficial, rather than folks sitting down and saying,

"Why are folks running off the train?"

LISE HAMLIN: What happens in real life emergency

situation for somebody who is deaf or hard of hearing is

they turn to the person next to them and they say, "What is

happening?" and people are really good about trying to tell

them what is happening. The problem is when the hearing

people don't know what is happening.

So that is when like a sign like that -- again,

if there is a major, major problem the sign itself, the
28

control for the sign itself gets destroyed, obviously you

can't do anything. But I find even in an emergency,

hearing people have trouble finding out what is going over

the PA system.

So a backup that would say "stay in place," just

a canned announcement "stay in place" or "evacuate"

someone needs to be trained, not just to speak the

announcement; you flip this emergency signal. It would be

really helpful. I'm just putting it out there and I'm not

saying you have to have voice to text until it is ready.

I'm actually pretty content with the principles here and I

think it is helpful. Some day in the future we will have

voice to text. At that point we will put it in. When we

don't have it we can't obviously use it.

In the meantime I think you can effectively use

canned messages or it can at least help for everybody on

the train.

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: Having been in an

emergency situation but not a dangerous situation but

seven-hour delay because of snow blindness, no one on the

train knew what was going on. We asked the conductors

passing by; they were too busy to stop and deal with us,

hearing loss or no hearing loss. No one next to us knew

what was going on because they couldn't hear the

announcement. I think it is hard to predict every situation
29

and there has to be some sort of maybe likely set where you

have something that says "delay" or "stay" or something.

And you have to have some provision. As the speech to text

changes, the law is not going to come back and change. So

we have to put in some provision that allows that once it

reaches a point where it can be done. We don't have to come

back and change the law.

We have seen before we are having the same

problem in other areas with induction loops, where some

people will come back and say, "Well, it doesn't say the

word 'induction loop.' So when we don't see a word, we

don't have to do it." It is irrelevant it didn't exist

before. So we have to plan for the future and we have to

make sure people are safe and not dependent on the people

next to them.

TERRY PACHECO: Anything else? Okay. We were on

backup power. We can drift occasionally.

How to make messages accessible when the vehicles

are not station-based. Okay. This is something that came

up -- I think this is most noticed by people, largely on

subways. I'm not picking on WMATA, but since that is the

one I'm near most of the time, generally WMATA or the MTBA

in Boston. The idea that the announcement is made that

this is a red line train to Shady Grove before it gets

into the station, when it is pulling in before it has come
30

to a stop, making it virtually -- in many, many cases

making it virtually impossible to comprehend, to hear,

especially if there are other trains, some of these

especially loud stations, that kind of thing. It is

making those signs, those announcements virtually

inaccessible to anybody who is trying to get it audibly.

And I think that is the -- that is my

understanding of what was meant when this issue was

brought forward in the beginning, you know, a couple of

months ago on our list. I think that is what this was

about.

I know there are -- with prerecorded messages,

that seems to be -- that is an issue that doesn't seem to

come into play. It seems to be resolved with prerecorded

messages.

It sometimes -- I don't know -- I honestly on

commuter rails if the announcement is external -- it is an

external announcement but it is on the vehicle itself. So

that is why it falls under our purview.

Does anybody have any thoughts or comments or

suggestions on it?

FRANK MALDARI: External, we have external

speakers on a lot our cars now and typically the trick is by

the door opening so that not every announcement that goes

off in the car is heard on the wayside. So there is an
31

announcement that occurs when you are in the station and it

is an audible announcement. When the doors are open and it

usually goes on outside as well.

TERRY PACHECO: So it is an announcement that says

"Blue Line to La La land" or something?

FRANK MALDARI: Everybody has standards. Usually

this station is and the next station is this and this is the

train to the final destination. It is usually a standard

announcement. It doesn't necessarily have to be limited to,

you know, to canned announcements. It can be any

announcement. The key is where you're tying to. For our

equipment we typically tie it to the door opening. You

don't want the guy trying to have to figure out exactly

where the announcements go all the time.

The one problem that we did have is depending on

where the trains are going, it was a lot of people

complaining in the neighborhoods about the length and

volume of the announcements that were being made when we

first put the equipment on a property.

Despite the fact it may be nicer to people on the

platform, if you live nearby, they don't like it. You are

always fighting competing interests.

TERRY PACHECO: Yes, I know. We had that same

issue with accessible ped signals when they were first put

in some places. They have been known to be seriously
32

vandalized for that reason. And, I'm sorry, but I don't

have much sympathy for people who decide that they are

having to listen to an announcement or someone potentially

getting killed, you know. Guess which one I'm going to side

with.

FRANK MALDARI: People don't want to hear horns on

trains either, exactly. There is always competing

interests.

TERRY PACHECO: There are.

FRANK MALDARI: To answer your question, you can

have exterior announcements and they don't have to be

limited to canned messages.

I have the same problem before we got the newer

equipment of trying to know where the train was going

before you get on it because they didn't have the visual

signs on them. So typically the problem was the crew

didn't make the announcement until they closed the door

and a lot of good it does you then because you are already

on your way.

So having the signs is helpful, but as far as

getting the crew to make the announcements when the train

is in the station before you get on, that can be done by

tying it to the door opening, I think, or instructing the

crew to make the announcement like that when the doors are

open at the platform.
33

GLENN MILLIS: I think we all heard and discussed

these things before. It is something that Metro has had to

worked at for a long time. I know similar to other places

we had speakers on the inside and outside of the cars and

some of the older equipment the speakers don't work that

well. We have done some upgrades in the past but, frankly,

they still don't operate that well.

But on our air equipment we have better speakers

and we do have speakers on the outside of the train. They

do have to compete with the environment. And, you know,

when you have two trains, one parked, one pulling into the

station, there is no competition. The train pulling in

the station wins noise hands down all the time. But we do

have speakers both inside and out.

On the quality and consistency on the messages,

is something we have been working on. Frankly, we have

had to do it. One of the things we have now are split

lines where we have something called "rush plus" where

depending on rush hour, what line you are on the trains

may turn colors. And we also added a silver line so we

have quite a few lines operating on the same track. So it

becomes even more important to let customers know what

cars you are on.

We sort of approached it two ways. One is

visual. The cars have signs on them that are colored
34

keyed. It will tell you the Red Line going to Glenmont.

We have also tried to standardize messages. I'm looking

for SOP for our operators, which we do enforce, which

tells them they have to make certain announcements when

the door is open, "This is the Station A. Doors will open

on the left/right." When it departs the station, telling

the customers again it is the Red Line of Washington,

D.C., to and gives the next station.

So we try to do that while the train is in motion

and while it is parked. And the advantage of the parked

is that, you know, it is being made while the train is in

the station. Again competing with other sounds in the

station. But if you are standing there waiting for a

train, there are speakers on every car in the train and it

is telling you this is a Red Line going to whatever,

Glenmont or Shady Grove.

TERRY PACHECO: The thing is when you have people

making the announcements as opposed to prerecorded

announcements, it seems to be a judgment call on their part

on when they are going to make the announcements.

GLENN MILLIS: There is a protocol of when they

make announcements. Do people do their job perfectly? Not

100 percent thing. We are working toward it and we are

getting better. I am not going to say you will hear it

every time you ride a Metro train, but the numbers are
35

getting a lot better.

But there is an advantage in the canned message

in that it does not fail. We have gone to canned messages

on our buses. We have automated bus stop announcements.

TERRY PACHECO: Yes.

CHRIS HART: Joe, anytime you rely on humans,

there is going to be some margin of error, more than you

have with mechanical devices.

MELISSA ANDERSON: I know in the bus rule,

something that we discussed and was proposed was having

automated announcements so that when you pulled into a

station that announcement automatically would go off and

also having a digitized human voice or computer voice that

gave the announcement so that you had consistent clarity.

So those might be two things for you guys to consider.

TERRY PACHECO: I personally think that it is far

superior. I would really like to see that in the

recommendation for the requirements, but I'm sure other

people have other views on it.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: You know, Amtrak is in an

interesting situation of having relatively short distances

on the corridor and elsewhere in the country having long

distance trains. Largely on long distance trains we have

strict rules about announcements at night when folks are

trying to sleep in the coaches and the sleepers.
36

So the way we generally setup, rather than making

a train wide announcement, the car attendants on the

sleepers and coaches will go because they know where their

passenger are. Say they are from Iowa, and they will go

and wake that person in the coach or multiple folks in the

coach and sleeper so they get off at their appointed

station to tell them we are in Iowa. I just want to make

sure that we keep that aspect in front of us so we don't

broad brush everything.

TERRY PACHECO: I think you are right, Blair. At

least in my mind, I'm primarily thinking of that on much

shorter trains, things more like subways and trolleys.

Maybe some commuter rails, not something that is long

distances, Amtrak. For someone who takes the 3:15 a.m.

train a lot, that is a wonderful service. I really do like

it.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: We will caveat those kinds of

things with the hours of operation and it would make sense

on even the corridor trains. The Acelas were built to do

just that, but the wayside infrastructure was never put in

to trigger the trains. The train has the capacity. If this

is an early morning train, you wouldn't want to start making

the broad announcements until after 7:00 a.m. or something

and not after 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. at night.

TERRY PACHECO: Good point.
37

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: If we could just leave a caveat

in there for those kinds of operations, that would be great.

TERRY PACHECO: Yeah. And this particular issue

was largely external speakers, external announcements,

announces two people on the station platform waiting for

that train to come in. As far as I know, we wouldn't run

into with Amtrak, would we? Because the announcements on

the platform are made from the station and not from the

train or do you have both?

LISE HAMLIN: The only issue I see with the

outdoor announcements when they differ with the signage on

the train. If you are going to make an announcement that

says "this train is ending at Grovesnor," that is what it

should say on the outside too because that is what someone

who is hard of hearing or deaf too will depend on those

visuals. That is the only one I would want to link to it.

I don't see a problem with having an outside announcement I

don't hear as long as I can see the sign saying where I'm

going.

FRANK MALDARI: That is a good point you make.

Maybe linking the two is not always a good idea. Because

typically when you are outside of the train, the main thing

you want to know is where is this train going, maybe not all

the stops it is making, because it is a quick thing. In

three to five minutes at a station, some of these trains are
38

moving quickly and people are boarding quickly. Don't want

to have all the information but maybe the more important

thing is the end destination, which is typically what we

display on the exterior signs. If you try to cram in too

much, you don't get the information that is most important.

TERRY PACHECO: I was thinking that when you were

saying what station it is and what station is the next one,

it would seem the most important information at that point

is possibly what station you are in, if it has not made the

announcement prior to pulling into the station, which I

would think would be a better way to do it. But when it

first opens to say, "Green Line train to Glenmont" whatever,

that is the first piece of information anyone, especially on

the platform, needs to know, is what train it is.

FRANK MALDARI: That is a good point. More on the

Long Island sign we have been able to do it with station

signs. We have invested a lot of money and have got a lary

(ph) signs and speaker and they continuously make

announcements and give updates on when the train is coming

and where the train is going on each track. Doesn't

necessarily have to be a car-borne setup to get the

information you need. You can also do it from the wayside.

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: While I understand what

you're saying, I disagree because in inclement weather it is

impossible the see the sign. When I mentioned the snow
39

blinding experience, we couldn't see the sign, had no idea,

because it really needs to be in the cars. At night it is

hard to see it in inclement weather. You should know where

you are getting off on the car. We can do it on the MTA.

No reason why we can't have it on all rail cars across the

country.

TERRY PACHECO: That's logical.

All right. Anything else on this topic before we

move on? I think we have certainly gotten a lot of

viewpoints on all three of those topics today.

A proposed time line for completion. We need to

look at how soon we think we are going be able to get all

of this done. I think this is something we probably

should have put a little further down on the agenda.

But, Paul, would you like to -- are you still

with us, Paul Beatty?

PAUL BEATTY: Yes, I am here. I had to turn on my

microphone.

TERRY PACHECO: Okay. I'm sorry.

I would like to hear what you folks ideal would

be for us to have all this done.

PAUL BEATTY: Ideal for having this all done?

Well, I guess you would have had some sort of draft in front

of you which you would have sent out to the full Committee

and they would have gone through and made sure everything
40

stated in it was what the Committee wanted to have stated.

I heard a number of ideas regarding the last

three issues you discussed. I have not heard anything

saying, "Okay, this is what the subcommittee is going to

say." There has been a lot of discussion, for example,

the last one, on how to make the exterior signage

accessible, but what is it that the subcommittee wants

their report to the full Committee to say on that issue?

Now, if you are looking for a time line, you

know, this is what we eventually want to see when you

submit your report to the Board. On these issues these

are recommendations that does add to the code language.

Now, in terms of time line, everything sort of

leading up to your September 11 meeting, Blair knows,

before it goes to the full Committee, the question for me

is whether the September subcommittee is making reports to

the full Committee for blessings or are they using their

time in September for an additional subcommittee meeting.

We only have those two days. Probably it all boils down

to 12 hours or 11 hours. So it sort of like let's

maximize our time and the face-to-face meetings are needed

to move things forward in subcommittee, great.

So it is almost like your second set on the

agenda after time line regarding the September 11 meeting.

And to me it is only getting the subcommittee to get a
41

sense of where they are at in terms of what is in the

agenda. The table, whether it is complete or not for

purposes of communicating something to the full Committee,

to get their comment and/or blessing. So that is my

thoughts.

Any other colleagues of mine want to add anything

more? Okay. No one here at the table. So back to you,

Terry.

TERRY PACHECO: Thank you, Paul.

Okay. So you all see where we are at, what we

need do. We got to get a draft put together. Do I think

we can have a draft of all of our issues and have it ready

to go to the Committee as a whole by September 11? I

don't think we can do it on all of it, but I think we can

do it on a good number of it.

I think we can also pull a lot together at the

September 11 and 12 meetings primarily with some of the

things we talked about with doing this markup with the

signage and such that we talked about on the last call.

I'm assuming that that is still going forward. I

know Blair and Frank, you were the two primary people on

that. I would like to open that opportunity up to ask

some of the other committees if they want to use it as a

demonstration of any of their recommendations so that we

can actually look --
42

One of the things that I have long felt, and

maybe I am just taking a bit of personal privilege here,

is oftentimes I have seen, too often where regulations

have been passed, regulations have gone into play that

once we actually lived with them and discovered they are

really not as wonderful as they were going to be at the

time. And that is why I am so intent on the idea of the

markup and actually walking through some of the proposed

recommendations of all of the committees.

I think we need to do that. I think the

disability community in general has fallen short in the

past. We can come up with several examples of it. We

don't need to get into. But we absolutely -- I think the

more we troubleshoot something ahead of time, the better

off we are all going to be in the future.

I think that makes it better for the people with

disabilities, for the transit companies, for the transit

engineers, for the companies building these new vehicles.

We just -- we need actually -- ideally, if we lived in an

ideal world, we would be able to live with something and

try it out for a while and see what works and what

doesn't. We are not able to do it. At least we are not

able to do that on a long term basis. We are not ending

up putting up committees like this that has to redo

something every 10 years.
43

I think we have the potential to at least do some

of that with the markups that we are going to do in

September. But I do think that we can also have some of

our issues -- some of our issues we have put in place, we

have agreed on them. At least I think we have a majority

vote on most of them.

I would like to -- that is where I brought in the

next piece that is right after the agenda, the summaries I

put in here of the principles that we have used.

I would like to continue on with this summary

based on the issues that were in the original issues

document and that I brought up in the table and actually

come up with what I plan to present based on all of your

approvals at the September 11 meeting. And hopefully

actually in there have some things that we are actually

ready to take to the Committee as a whole as our

recommendations.

I am committing myself to have this done in time

to email it to all of you before our next meeting, which I

don't have a date of in front of me. My calendar won't

come up. It is something like the 5th -- 4th of

September. I think it is the 4th.

PAUL BEATTY: There are no more conference calls

scheduled for the subcommittee. Right now the next time you

will be getting to this is possibly when the full Committee
44

meets, September 11 and 12.

Just from a crude planning perspective, if we

take the 12 hours roughly and divide them, take some time

out for the full Committee, you can say subcommittee has

about two and a half hours and they can use that time

either to make presentation to the full Committee and

allow discussion and/or use that time for subcommittee

work. So that Communications doesn't overlap boarding and

alighting and you get two and a half hours and no more.

How you are going to use that time is up to the

subcommittee and the subcommittee chair to decide.

TERRY PACHECO: Thank you, Paul.

Okay. Let me ask this question of our committee:

Would you have a problem with holding another

meeting on September 4?

FRANK MALDARI: I can't make that, that date. I

have another meeting I'm going to.

TERRY PACHECO: Okay. How about if we just do

this by email? Would that work better for folks?

FRANK MALDARI: I think that is a good idea,

Terry. And one thing I wanted to go over before the meeting

is over -- and I will let you finish, but I didn't want to

get caught off at the end. I wanted to spend five or 10

minutes talking about what we are going to do about the

presentation to make sure we are on the same page.
45

I think email, if you want to send it around and

get input is a good way to go.

TERRY PACHECO: Okay.

FRANK MALDARI: I think we will need some time to

see what we have in our hands and agree or have discussion

on it. Two hours is not a lot of time, even two and a half

hours. Being ready to give a report to the Committee I

think is a little much for us to be prepared for at that

time.

TERRY PACHECO: No. I have to give them some dive

of a report at that time. I can give them a report, "We

have not done anything." I have to do something with them

anyhow. I have to give them some kind of status report.

Goes without saying. If we can get some of our

recommendations solidified by then, we can add those in.

PAUL BEATTY: Terry, in general if you're not

going to be making a complete report to the full Committee

for purposes of discussing your recommendations, we are just

asking for a brief briefing. So that could be just five

minutes: "Here are some of the things we talked about, but

we are not prepared to give our full report at this point in

time" and leave it at that.

So just a quick status --

TERRY PACHECO: Paul, what is the date of the next

committee meeting?
46

PAUL BEATTY: September 11 and 12.

TERRY PACHECO: No; the one after that?

PAUL BEATTY: Not until February.

TERRY PACHECO: I couldn't remember if it is

January or February. I just couldn't remember.

PAUL BEATTY: Toward the end of the month. I

don't have the dates in front of me.

TERRY PACHECO: I couldn't remember if it was

January or February. That is longer than I think we

actually need but it is going to be our option, our only

other option, really.

Okay. Thank you, Paul.

Let's go on to -- Frank, why don't we go into

what your wanted to discuss about the presentation.

FRANK MALDARI: Yeah, okay.

What I was planning to do is try to get some good

high resolution pictures like the end of the car. I was

going to pick one of our pieces of equipment, a couple of

shots in the vestibule and a couple of shots in the main

passenger compartment and then send that to Blair, who

could hopefully scale them up and print them full size.

And, you know, we will have a couple of decals and actual

size and be able to play around with how they are going to

fit on the car and see how it would be on current design.

We talked about using AutoCAD drawing, but if you
47

can accommodate printing full-size pictures that can be

scaled up, I think that is better for people to get a feel

of what is going on.

Does that seem possible for you, Blair?

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: I think so, Frank. The sooner

I can get an example, the sooner we can get that scaled up.

We have a big color printer and a big black and white

printer. The worse case would be if our color printer is

big and finicky.

And it would be handy if you put something like a

known dimension, like a 12 x 12 --

FRANK MALDARI: Right, what I was thinking so you

know what to scale it up to, I wanted to make sure we could

get full resolution. And doesn't look like a lot of

dimples, but it is also important to deal with full

accessibility.

PAUL BEATTY: So if you have something full scale

with any information on it, we have to at a bear minimum

have a written out description of what it is. So whatever

you are sending to Blair, you know, please make sure you

copy us on it so we can at a bear minimum right a sort of

descriptive.

When you are describing this, I had a picture in

mind, maybe this 5' x 8' sheet of paper you are putting up

against the wall that sort of shows the full scale size at
48

the end of a rail car. Is that what you're talking about,

Frank?

FRANK MALDARI: Yeah, that is basically it.

PAUL BEATTY: Okay. That is something we have

never done before. It would be interesting in terms of the

conference room. There is something about I can't pin

things against the wall. But if that is what you are

planning to do or desire to do, at this point I assume you

can do it and I will immediately touch base with your people

that control your walls in the conference room and see how I

can request about accommodating you and accommodating them

in terms of wall mix and so forth.

We will need whatever you are going to do,

obviously a small thing, so we can deal with

accommodations, description, picture. And if you are

putting dimensions on it, obviously we will be including

that in the description.

TERRY PACHECO: One of the things with this, Paul,

is the thing last week. I was saying we are going to be

doing some of the signs. I just wanted to remind anybody

that has signage that we can use it to send it to me because

I'm going to put together signs in alternate formats to be

able to put on -- to use as examples on this markup.

So they will be accessible in and of themselves,

as far as braille, large print, that type of thing is
49

concerned.

FRANK MALDARI: Terry, do you want -- I mean, we

have standard decals I was going to use as an example. Do

you want me to send you the actually drawing?

TERRY PACHECO: If you can send something to me so

I can braille it, that would be great.

PAUL BEATTY: Melissa pointed out and reminded me

that this is not something you should walk in the door on

the 11th and say, "Here are my folders" and put them up

against the wall.

If you can do one at the bear minimum, maybe you

won't use, but maybe as a test example that you can send

to us, then we would know where we are going to put it,

whether we can and then also how many you are talking

about. So do we put them one on top of the other and pull

the curtain back and see the next one? So if you can give

us a test one and we can make sure we can get a wall -- we

just need to set it up before the meeting starts.

TERRY PACHECO: Jim and I had talked about doing

it a day before.

PAUL BEATTY: We have a board meeting three days

before the 11th and 12th. They will be gone by noon on the

Wednesday, sometimes by 3:00 or so. I guess I'm trying to

make a point, we need a test to make sure we can put it

somewhere and it works and we need the others as soon as
50

possible and we have this small window. If you wait until

the last moment to get it put up and we don't want to spend

full Committee time to try to put these on the walls and

everyone discussing where they should go.

We appreciate people's help but we only have the

12 hours, roughly, for the full Committee. So just Frank

and Blair, just plan for that in your planning process.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Frank, as soon as you send

something as an example, I will send it out and roll it out

and send it down to Paul.

FRANK MALDARI: Okay. I will try to get you

something next week. We were trying to make sure we had the

right resolution. I was busy doing something else. I'm

thinking about, you know, about four or five, you know, five

foot wide, you know, sections of the car. Display them all

together to get a feeling for what the end compartment looks

like.

I also wanted to try to get some standard decals

and present them up to scale. And I was trying to print a

couple of other ones blown up as well. The important

thing is getting an idea of the overall space that you

have.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: And I think if we -- if you

have raised letter in braille and standard sizing what it

would do to a sign. I think those are good bring-alongs
51

that we can add and take away to what we put on the wall.

And I think between our two railroads, the things

that you encounter that we are concerned about are

relevant enough and pretty much across the board when we

talk about safety and information that it won't be

relevant whether it is your cars or mine or Jersey

Transits or whoever.

FRANK MALDARI: Sidewalls and end walls will be

pretty similar. The vestibule will vary a little bit. But

you really can't appreciate what is going on there unless

you see a picture. So I think pictures are good and if we

can blow them up enough and not lose the resolution, I think

would be a real good way to make a display.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Okay. Well, let's give it a

whirl.

PAUL BEATTY: Send me one as a test copy before

you do work on the other three or five so I know we can do

it.

JOSEPH SLAUGHTER: Okay, Paul. The first thing I

get as an example, I will go ahead and blow it up, print it

and send it to you so you can get an idea of the scale of

what it is going to be.

TERRY PACHECO: Do we have anything else on the

11th?

All right. I will start working on the summary.
52

If anybody wants to take any part of it and do some work

on it, you are more than welcome to. Our next step is I

will get something out to you, probably be the latter part

of next week. In the meanwhile, I think that pretty much

covers our agenda now. An absolute amazing thing, we are

running a little ahead of schedule instead of 20 minutes

behind as we usually are.

Anybody else have anything they want to bring up

today?

<<<: Not I.

TERRY PACHECO: Going twice. I think we are done

for this afternoon and I will be in touch with you all next

week.

FRANK MALDARI: Thank you, Terry.

<<<: Thank you.

<<<: Bye.

TERRY PACHECO: If anyone doesn't hear from me,

just let me know and make sure -- make sure I have your

email address.

JANICE SCHACTER LINTZ: Okay. Thank you.

<<<: Bye.

PAUL BEATTY: Operator, this concludes our

conference call.

(Whereupon at 2:29 p.m. the meeting was adjourned)