Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

1

Public Announcement

The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT), Office of the Secretary of Transportation, announced 

this Future of Aviation Advisory Committee (FAAC) Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

meeting in a Federal Register notice published September 9, 2010 (75 FR 54939).

Subcommittee Members in Attendance

Name Affiliation(s)

Patricia A. Friend 

(Subcommittee Chair)

International President Association of Flight Attendants 

(AFA)–Communications Workers of 

America (CWA), American Federation 

of Labor and Congress of Industrial 

Organizations (AFL–CIO)

David Barger President and 

Chief Executive Officer

JetBlue Airways Corporation (JetBlue)

Thella F. Bowens President and 

Chief Executive Officer

San Diego County Regional Airport 

Authority

John Conley International Administrative 

Vice President and Air Transport 

Division Director

Transport Workers Union of America 

(TWU), AFL–CIO

Cynthia M. Egnotovich Segment President, Nacelles and 

Interior Systems

Goodrich Company (Goodrich)

Ana McAhron-Schulz Director of Economic and 

Financial Analysis

Air Line Pilots Association, 

International (ALPA)

Subcommittee Members Not in Attendance

Name Affiliation(s)

Robert L. Lekites President United Parcel Service (UPS) Airlines
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

2

Other Officials Present

Name Affiliation(s)

Terri Williams 

(Designated Federal 

Official (DFO))

Director, Center for 

Organizational Excellence

Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)

Regis Milan 

(Alternate DFO)

Associate Director and Special 

Assistant to the Deputy Assistant 

Secretary for Aviation and 

International Affairs

U.S. Department of Transportation 

(DOT)

Other Persons Present

Name Affiliation(s)

Jan (Jay) Aul FAA

Bryan Baldwin JetBlue

Patty Clark Port Authority of New York and New Jersey

Emily Dziedzic PAI Consulting

Robert Land JetBlue

Marco Nogueira JetBlue

Bradley Rubenstein Port Authority of New York and New Jersey

BACKGROUND AND WELCOMING REMARKS

This is the record of the third meeting of the Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee of the 

FAAC, a Federal advisory committee formed pursuant to and subject to the requirements of the 

Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA). 

Ms. Patricia Friend, Subcommittee Chair, AFA-CWA, called the meeting to order at 1:06 p.m. 

She welcomed the subcommittee members and members of the public in attendance. 

Ms. Friend introduced Ms. Terri Williams, FAA, the DFO for the meeting, and asked her to summarize

FACA requirements. Ms. Williams noted the meeting is conducted under FACA and outlined her 

responsibilities as DFO, including maintaining adherence to the agenda, keeping accurate minutes, and 

adjourning the meeting if necessary.

Ms. Williams noted meetings of the subcommittee are accessible to the public and stated interested 

people have the opportunity to submit comments before each meeting either by email at faac@dot.gov

or by submission to the regulatory docket at www.regulations.gov. She added the minutes of each 

meeting will be made available both in the regulatory docket and on the FAAC Web site at 

http://www.dot.gov/faac.
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

3

Ms. Williams read the formal statement required under FACA. She noted although the meeting was 

open to the public and members of the public were attending the meeting, participation in the meeting 

was limited to subcommittee members, their alternates, and Federal officials. She added that only 

subcommittee members and their alternates were entitled to vote on subcommittee business. 

Ms. Williams then turned the meeting back over to Ms. Friend to open substantive discussion.

DISCUSSION

Ms. Friend started the meeting by reviewing the current schedule remaining for the FAAC. She stated 

there are two more full advisory meetings and the subcommittee is expected to present two or three full 

recommendations at the next FAAC meeting in Los Angeles, California on October 20, 2010. She 

stated the goal of today’s meeting is to refine the areas of discussion. She reminded the subcommittee 

there will be a teleconference meeting on October 1, 2010 to hear the presentation from Mr. Joshua M. 

Javits, Dispute Resolution Services, on mediation and arbitration in the airline industry. Ms. Friend 

reiterated the original charge of the subcommittee: how to improve recruitment and retention of the 

workforce in the aviation industry. 

Recruitment

Ms. Friend stated the first part of the recruitment topic is the Science, Technology, Engineering, Math 

(STEM) proposal. She stated she spoke to the Secretary of Transportation’s office regarding whether to 

include educational institutions such as Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. She stated the STEM 

program focuses on educating students prior to college so they have an interest and a background 

before entering college or the aviation workforce. Ms. Friend stated the Secretary’s office agrees with 

this proposed initiative and does not advise revisions. She added most students who are accepted into 

collegiate aviation programs have a background in STEM topics; therefore, the education of young 

students is critical to recruitment.

Ms. Friend stated the second topic regarding recruitment is making changes to allow for more effective 

airport recruitment. She thanked Ms. Thella Bowens, San Diego County Regional Airport Authority, 

for her submission on the current barriers making airport recruitment difficult. Ms. Friend stated the 

subcommittee can refine the submission and include it as a topic under recruitment.

Ms. Bowens suggested the subcommittee look outside the aviation industry and work with community 

entities that also hold STEM-related activities. She stated there are many industries interested in 

science, engineering, and technology and the aviation industry can benefit from partnering with these 

industries. Ms. Cynthia Egnotovich, Goodrich, stated this is where the interagency task force would 

include industries other than aerospace to help in aviation recruitment.

Ms. Friend mentioned an article from Boeing citing the need for many more pilots and maintenance 

workers in the near future. Mr. John Conley, TWU, noted Boeing is aware of this need; the article 

states Asia has the greatest need for pilots and maintenance workers. He questioned how the global 

growth of the aviation industry will affect the United States.
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

4

Mr. David Barger, JetBlue, asked what background information should be included in the proposals. 

He stated information regarding employment statistics, jobs lost, and the number of future job 

opportunities should be noted. The subcommittee agreed the proposal for recruitment should include 

an introductory section to include industry history and the potential for future recruitment.

Mr. Conley noted since 2002, there have been 38 air carrier bankruptcies, with 2 bankruptcies resulting 

in liquidation. He stated the employee impact in terms of job loss and residual job loss are salient 

components that bring this subcommittee together. He stated the committee needs to focus on how to 

attract people by demonstrating industry stability and certainty. He added those elements are crucial to 

recruitment and are currently lacking.

Ms. Friend agreed with Mr. Conley and stated recruitment remains a critical problem facing the 

aviation workforce. She asked the subcommittee if the STEM proposal is ready for presentation at the 

next FAAC meeting in Los Angeles, California. 

Ms. Egnotovich agreed to add the introductory information, as well as refine the proposal. 

Ms. Ana McAhron-Schulz, ALPA, noted the introduction to the STEM proposal also serves as an 

introduction to the airport recruitment issues.

Ms. Friend clarified the introduction piece should cover (1) the state of the industry today, (2) the 

history of jobs lost, (3) bankruptcies, and (4) the projection and growth of the industry. She stated

these items highlight the need for STEM and address the issue of having STEM education accessible to 

the future workforce.

Mr. Barger inquired if the STEM proposal touches on the issue of retention. Ms. Friend stated the 

proposal topics need to be refined for presentation, and recruitment and retention are viewed as 

separate pieces. Ms. Egnotovich stated the goal of STEM is to attract, train, and foster personal and 

professional development, which is the first phase of recruitment to the aviation industry.

Retention

Ms. Friend directed the conversation to the issue of retention. She stated the challenge is creating an 

environment where people want to come to work. She noted a major issue with retention is employee 

morale, and there are four thoughts on improving morale: (1) DOT support for increased resources for 

the National Mediation Board (NMB) to help improve the collective bargaining process; 

(2) a commitment from companies within the industry to meet the core labor standards for employees; 

(3) a call for the Secretary of Transportation to convene an annual labor-management summit; and 

(4) FAAC support for ALPA proposals on bankruptcy reform. 

Ms. Friend asked the subcommittee for additional suggestions to help with employee retention in the 

aviation industry.
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

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Increased Resources for the NMB

Ms. McAhron-Schulz agreed with the topic regarding the use of NMB as a streamlined process to

allow for more timely agreements. She stated resources and staff need to be available so negotiations 

can move at an appropriate pace. She added Mr. Javits can offer more information and insights 

regarding the speed of the process during the October 1, 2020, teleconference. Ms. McAhron-Schulz 

stated management should receive more training on the collective bargaining process before entering 

into that process.

Ms. Egnotovich stated the issue may not be in adding more people to the mediation process but rather

streamlining the process. Ms. McAhron-Schulz agreed with this statement and suggested the 

subcommittee wait to hear the presentation from Mr. Javits. She added he may be able to offer insight 

into the collective bargaining problems so the subcommittee can propose solutions.

Core Labor Standards

Mr. Barger stated the next issue is core industry standards. Ms. Friend stated that Mr. Dean Hubbard 

from TWU will present on this topic at the FAAC meeting in Los Angeles, California. Ms. Friend 

stated if the industry agrees to core labor standards, then companies cannot profit by taking advantage 

of workers. 

Ms. Egnotovich stated as the industry changes, there is a new struggle for retention. She added in the 

past, companies were able to offer pensions. However, currently, most companies do not offer 

pensions, and the workforce can move freely from one job to another. She noted companies must now 

focus on the environment and employee morale on a daily basis. She suggested that if successful, the 

ideas for retention can work for any organization. 

Ms. Friend stated these issues are pertinent but difficult to express in a proposal for the Secretary of 

Transportation. She stated the idea of a nice place to work is not tangible, and the suggestions must be 

achievable. Ms. Friend noted a good working environment is dependent on the management team, and 

those ideas must be translated throughout the entire corporation.

Mr. Conley stated if the subcommittee is committed to the idea of core labor standards, then the 

discussion needs to be continued to develop a solid proposal.

Labor/Management Summit

Mr. Conley brought up the issue of the labor/management summit. He stated 75 percent of Americans 

are unhappy at their jobs. He also stated this statistic is driven by mismanagement and the environment 

in which people work. Mr. Conley stated most people spend 70 percent of their lives at work, thinking 

about work, preparing for work, or getting over the stresses of work. He feels the aviation industry 

should have the opportunity to create an ongoing relationship with the Secretary of Transportation to 

create an environment where these topics can be discussed. Mr. Conley stressed the importance of 

having an arena where employees, stakeholders, and chief executive officers (CEO) can sit in a room 

and be honest and candid about the reality of the working environment. He stated the 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

6

labor/management summit can become a place where the Secretary of Transportation can assist in 

creating benchmarks, look at successful business models, and foster a good labor/management 

relationship.

Ms. Bowens stated in the workforce today, there are four generations of employees. She stated each 

generation differs in its expectations, ideas of a healthy work environment, and ways to do the actual 

work. She also stated technology adds another layer of complication to the workplace. Ms. Bowens 

acknowledged employees today have different expectations than employees in the past. She stated 

leaders need to let go of old models and start adopting new ones that can be successful in today’s 

marketplace. Ms. Friend noted that flight attendants today are treated entirely differently than flight 

attendants several years ago. She stated imposing an old model on new employees causes problems. 

Mr. Barger added retention comes with successful business models. He stated a company must have 

the ability to drive profitability, and invest in the staff, product, and shareholders. He noted there needs 

to be a discussion about which business models are creating jobs; this would help identify where people 

want to work. He stated this can be effectively conducted through the labor/management summit. 

Mr. Conley stated if a labor/management summit was convened, it would be ill-advised to disregard the 

invitation. He stated there is no downside in contributing ideas to the labor/management summit. He 

added the notion of the FAAC was not thought of 5 years ago, which is proof that thinking needs to 

shift with the times. Mr. Conley stated the Secretary of Transportation needs to listen to the real 

problem areas in the workforce so management can begin making corrections. He stated this effort is 

both affordable and achievable.

Ms. Friend stated it is difficult for people to work in and feel secure in the aviation industry. She stated 

the tough issues are easier for industry to implement in a supportive environment, rather than being 

forced to make changes. She added that if changes are forced upon the workforce, it can take several 

generations for residual anger and animosity to disappear.

Ms. Egnotovich stated all the issues facing the aviation industry are also relevant to the manufacturing 

world. She noted the generation and diversity issue is especially prevalent and difficult to handle. She 

stated the first thing to do is recognize it and then act on it. Ms. Egnotovich commented that training is 

also critical to retention. She stated from the Goodrich perspective, 98 percent of people do the right 

thing and the organization should focus on that 98 percent. She stated the labor/management summit 

would be a good tool to help make the industry successful, because the philosophy of successful 

businesses can be shared and supported.

Mr. Barger stated the labor/management summit could recognize best practices by highlighting 

Goodrich, Harley-Davidson, and companies offering full tuition reimbursement. He stated, in 

highlighting examples of unique practices, other companies can follow suit.

Ms. Friend expressed concern about creating a proposal for a labor/management summit that could be 

implemented now and would continue after changes in the Administration and FAA leadership. She 

stated the point of the labor/management summit is to create a better working environment and help 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

7

labor issues from the perspective of organized labor. Ms. Friend offered the idea of having a different 

agenda for each meeting of the labor/management summit, as well as having facilitators who are 

familiar with the areas of discussion. She stated although one cannot mandate candid conversation, 

there needs to be a structured place where people feel safe enough to have these conversations, not just 

during this Administration, but in the future.

Ms. Bowens suggested the labor/management summit focus on the entire workforce rather than just 

organized labor. She stated everyone in the workforce needs to be included so the labor/management 

summit can become entrenched and generate longevity.

Ms. Bowens raised the issue of corporate culture, which starts with the CEO and works its way down. 

She stated this culture evolves over time and is an everyday process, not a program that can just be 

applied. Mr. Conley responded with the example of UPS and how they do very little recruitment since 

people already want to work for UPS. He stated they have a culture that people are drawn to and the 

aviation industry needs to follow that example. Ms. Friend added the idea of the labor/management 

summit is to help members of the industry develop this culture.

Bankruptcy Reform

Mr. Barger touched upon the issue of bankruptcy reform. Regarding the ALPA submission on 

bankruptcy, he feels the proposal should include a point with a counterpoint. Ms. Friend agreed to 

broaden the discussion. Mr. Barger agreed and stated that Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code 

(Title 11 of the United States Code (11 U.S.C.)) should not be available to companies. (Chapter 11 

concerns reorganization in cases of bankruptcy.) He stated if a company is failing, they should be 

allowed to fail. He added Chapter 11 does not help the workforce in any way.

Ms. McAhron-Schulz explained the ALPA submission was from the perspective of the employee who 

is concerned with a pension, losing a job, and losing a contract. She stated during bankruptcy 

proceedings the judge should consider the employee and the company, and not solely the company. 

Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen)

Ms. Egnotovich inquired if the issue of NextGen needs to be included in the STEM information. 

Ms. Friend informed the subcommittee that a new advisory committee has been formed specifically for 

the topic of NextGen, which will be chaired by Mr. Barger.

Mr. Barger gave an introduction to this new committee and stated it is made up of industry 

representatives with varied backgrounds. He stated it began on September 23, 2010 and is on a 

2-year timeframe. He stated the initial tasking focuses on implementing NextGen. Mr. Barger 

explained the advisory committee will discuss the metroplex concept to determine which areas of the 

country will start to see the early benefits of NextGen. He noted the tasking is also tied into 

performance measurement. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

8

Mr. Barger stated he plans to distribute information from the FAAC and the subcommittees, so as the 

FAAC comes to a close, the new NextGen Committee can pick up where the FAAC leaves off. He 

stated the efforts of the FAAC will help to guide the NextGen Committee’s tasks. Mr. Barger added he 

plans to give a presentation at the next FAAC meeting in Los Angeles, California.

Non-Consensus Topics

Ms. Friend stated the subcommittee has identified several issues considered detrimental to the aviation 

industry. She acknowledged the subcommittee may not reach consensus within the time constraints of 

the FAAC; however, these issues should not be ignored. 

Ms. Friend stated the submissions should follow a one-page format and include the workforce and the 

industry points of view.

Ms. Friend reviewed the topics drafted by subcommittee members: outsourcing, bankruptcy, foreign 

investment, code share, DOT fitness, and foreign repair stations.

Ms. Friend stated the paper, written by Ms. McAhron-Schulz and Mr. Barger, on DOT fitness standards 

for new entrants was interesting because it suggested periodic reviews of organizations. She inquired 

about the potential consequence of not meeting the criteria. Mr. Barger stated the group may be able to 

reach consensus on a periodic review by the DOT. He stated new companies would need to be 

evaluated to determine their sustainability. Ms. McAhron-Schulz added this review needs to be initial

and ongoing. Mr. Barger added the fitness standards should be appropriate for today and the future.

CLOSING REMARKS AND ADMINISTRATIVE MATTERS

Ms. Friend stated the next FAAC meeting is on October 20, 2010 in Los Angeles, California. She 

noted all subcommittees will be required to present two or three proposals. She stated Mr. Javits’ 

presentation will allow the Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee to add more detail to the 

retention proposal. 

Ms. Friend stated she will be happy to report to the FAAC that the subcommittee is continuing to refine 

its submissions in the areas it has not reached consensus. She stated the October 2010 FAAC meeting

will present topics being covered, not action items.

Ms. Friend stated the next meeting for the Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee will be 

November 15, 2010, where the recruitment, retention, and non-consensus topic proposals will be 

finalized. 
Future of Aviation Advisory Committee

Labor and World-class Workforce Subcommittee

Record of Meeting

September 23, 2010

JetBlue

John F. Kennedy International Airport, Queens, New York

9

ADJOURNMENT

Ms. Williams requested a motion to certify the minutes from the August 6, 2010 meeting. Upon 

receiving two motions, Ms. Williams certified the minutes. 

Ms. Williams solicited a motion for adjournment. On motion, duly seconded and approved by the 

majority of the subcommittee members present, the meeting was adjourned.

The meeting adjourned at 4:16 p.m.

I hereby certify that, to the best of my knowledge, the foregoing minutes are accurate and complete.

Approved by: ____________________________________________

Dated: __________________________________________________

Ratified on: ______________________________________________