Note: The output shown below is from the Communication Access 

Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the On-Board 

Circulation and Seating Subcommittee meeting #11 and is generally

unedited. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation 

to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was 

streamed in real-time and available to the public on the internet 

during the meeting. 

UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD

RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE

ON-BOARD CIRCULATION AND SEATING SUBCOMMITTEE 

MEETING #11 TELECONFERENCE

DECEMBER 11, 2014

CART Operator: E Archer

PAUL BEATTY. THANK YOU ROSE BUNALES, WELCOME ON THE ELEVENTH 

MEETING OF THE ON BOARD CIRCULATION SEATING. AS ANYONE MAY 

PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSIONS, NO TIME FOR PUBLIC COMMENT HAS 

BEEN SCHEDULED DURING THIS TWO HOUR CALL. THE CART SYSTEM'S CHAT 

BOX IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR SUBCOMMITTEE PARTICIPATES. IF YOU DESIRE 

TO MAKE A STATEMENT PLEASE USE E SERBINGS: RVAAC@ACCESS-.GOV TO 

COMMUNICATE WITH ME AND I WILL BRING TO IT THE CHAIR'S ATTENTION. 

WHEN SPEAKING REMEMBER TO GIVE YOUR NAME. YOUR NEXT MEETING 

SECONDED FOR JANUARY 15 OF NEXT YEAR.

AND ONE OTHER THING -- TOOK CARE OF THAT OFF THE LIST.

ALL RIGHT. I WILL TURN THE CALL OVER TO BLAIR SLAUGHTER. GO AHEAD, .

BLAIR SLAUGHTER. THANK YOU. I FIRST HAVE TO TAKE THE FOLKS AT THE 

ACCESS BOARD FOR GETTING MY INFORMATION POSTED DESPITE THE FACT I 

WAS TARDY GETTING IT TO THEM. SO THEY HAVE SUPER PERSON STATUS IN 

MY BOOK TODAY. SO ANYWAY ALL THAT SAID. PAUL TOOK CARE OF THE 

SECOND PART OF THE AGENDA BUT IF WE COULD APPROVE THE AGENDA, IF 

YOU NEED TO ADD SOMETHING LET'S GO AHEAD AND ADD IT. AND IF THERE'S 

NO COMMENTS I WILL TAKE IT AS APPROVED.

IS THAT CONSENSUS BY SILENCE? OKAY.
SPEAKER: PROBABLY SO.

BLAIR: PROBABLY SO. SO WE WERE PROVIDED A NICE DOCUMENT WITH 

VARIOUS TRANSIT VEHICLES IN IT AND IT IS REALLY HANDY PIECE OF 

INFORMATION. TO GO THROUGH. IS KENT ON THE LINE TODAY?

SPEAKER: HE SAID HE WOULD BE LATE.

SPEAKER: YEAH. HE SAID HE WOULD BE LATE WE CAN GO TO HIM THEN.

SPEAKER: I JUST WONDER. THINKING WAS WE WOULD GO THROUGH THE 

PHOTOGRAPHIC THEMES WE HAD AHEAD OF GETTING INTO THE DISCUSSION 

BUT SINCE IT WAS KEN'S DOCUMENT IT MIGHT BE MORE EFFICIENT TO HAVE 

HIM JUST RUN THROUGH THAT WITH US.

BUT WHAT WE CAN DO BECAUSE IT IS MORE IMMEDIATELY RELEVANT TO 

WHAT WE'RE DOING IS LOOK AT THE PHOTOS THAT DID NOT MAKE IT LAST 

TIME FROM THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD. I HAD THEM BUT DIDN'T REALIZE I 

HAD THEM OF SOME COMMUNITY CARS AND THEN WE CAN MOVE INTO THE 

DISCUSSION OF SOME OF THE ACCESS ISSUES THAT ARE RELATED TO 

THOSE.

AND HOPE OF TRYING TO WRAP SOME THINGS UP OR AT LEAST GET A NICE 

DIRECTION ON HOW WE'RE GOING TO FINISH UP NOTES 6 IN THE MATRIX.

SO THERE WAS TEXT FOR THOSE SO HOPEFULLY THAT WORKS OUT OKAY.

I DIDN'T HEAR ANYONE ON BOARD FROM LONG ISLAND. IS THAT CORRECT?

OKAY. THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH SET OF FOE GRAPHS ARE FROM THE LONG 

ISLAND C 3 CAR. WHICH IS A GALLERY CAR. AND FOR THOSE THAT ARE 

UNFAMILIAR WITH GALLERY CARS THEY ARE NOT TRUE BI LEVEL CARS. THEY 

DO HAVE TWO LEVELS OF SEATING BUT THEY ARE SORT OF AN ODD BALL 

THAT LETS YOU HAVE TWO LEVELS WITHOUT HAVING THE EXTREME HEIGHTA 

TRUE BI LEVEL CAR.

AND WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT CIRCULATION IN YOUR DOORWAYS, I 

BELIEVE THAT'S WHY THE FOLKS FROM LONG ISLAND SENT THESE IN. BUT, I 

THINK THEY HAVE DONE A PRETTY GOOD JOB SHOWING WHERE THEY PUT 

HAND HOLDS WITHOUT HAVING TOO MUCH BUT HAVING ENOUGH SO PEOPLE 

CAN GET ON AND OFF THE TRAIN SAFELY.

THE C 3 IS -- LET'S SEE. BEAR WITH ME A SECOND HERE. THE NEXT GROUP OF 

PHOTOGRAPHS IS THE M 3 COMMUTER CAR WHICH I THINK IS -- JUST A 
SECOND -- I THINK MY PICTURES GOT MIXED UP, HERE.

SPEAKER: BLAIR THEY SHOULD BE IN C 3 SHOWS UP FIRST. AND THEN THE M 

3. THEN THE M 7. AND I STARTED LABELING THEM. WE HAD TROUBLE 

CONVERTING YOUR PICTURES OVER SO WE RAN OUT OF TIME AND THE 

BOTTOM ONES AREN'T LABELED.

SPEAKER: OKAY. THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS WERE IN A PDF TO MAKE THEM 

MORE MANAGEABLE AND CONVERTED TO WORD WHICH CREATES ITS OWN

LITTLE MAGICAL THINGS AT THE SAME TIME. SO OH. IF WE MOVE OVER TO 

THE M 3 WHICH I BELIEVE IS AN OLDER VEHICLE, THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH OF 

THE M 3 ACTUALLY IT IS THE SECOND ONE, AND I BELIEVE SOME OF THE 

THESE MAY HAVE GOTTEN MIXED UP BUT THE PICTURE 4 IN THE HOLE MIX IS 

PART OF THE C 3 LOOKING THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION FROM THE STAIRS.

SO, IF WE GO TO PICTURE 5, -- OH, I'M WRONG -- MY PROBLEM WITH MY 

PRINTING. PICTURE 4 IS THE M 3 AND THAT'S INTERESTING I THINK BECAUSE 

IT SHOWS THE WIND SCREEN THAT'S DENNIS TALKED ABOUT. IT HAS 

HORIZONTAL HAND HOLDS JUST INSIDE THE CALL. EXTENSIONS ARE OUT 

BEYOND THE WIND WINGS. I GUESS THAT COULD BE AN ACCUMULATION 

ISSUE WITH FOLKS.

BUT GENERALLY IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS NOT A BAD CAR TO GET INTO. IF YOU 

MOVE TO PICTURE 5, I THINK THAT'S SORT OF A BETTER SHOT. OF HOW

THAT'S LAID OUT. I SUPPOSE, DEPENDING ON IF YOU TRIED TO APPLY THIS TO 

A SUBWAY IT MAYBE A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT BUT THESE CARS, THE INTENT

IS PEOPLE NOT PACK UP. I'M NOT SURE AND CRUSH LOADING IF THIS SPACE 

FILLS ONE PEOPLE OR NOT.

MAYBE SOMEONE IF THERE'S ANYONE ON FROM LONG ISLAND THEY CAN 

SPEAK TO THAT OR GENTLEMAN FROM METRA IN CHICAGO. YOU HAVE 

SIMILAR LAYOUTS TO THIS?

SPEAKER: THEY ARE SIMILAR. WHAT WE WERE GOING TO OFTEN BLAIR I 

DON'T KNOW IF IT IS TOO LATE IN THE GAME OR NOT. WE COULD TAKE A 

BUNCH OF PICTURES FROM OUR CURRENT VEHICLES AND SEND THEM OFF 

SO YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO LOOK AT THE NEXT TIME IF THAT'S USEFUL FOR 

YOU.

BLAIR: I WON'T DISCOUNT IT BUT ANY INFORMATION IS GOOD TO HAVE FOR 

THE COMPARISON. AND OBVIOUSLY WE GOT TO GET SOME TIGHT WORDING 
AROUND THESE THINGS SOONER RATHER THAN LATER. SO WE CAN PUSH 

THAT FORWARD TO THE FULL COMMITTEE.

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS CANNON. THE ISSUE THAT WE WERE DEBATING 

LAST TIME WAS THE POLE ESSENTIALLY IN THE CENTER IN THE PASSAGE 

FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER. THE ISSUE IS NOT PEOPLE REALLY. PEOPLE 

WILL CONJUGATE AROUND THE DOORWAYS NO MATTER WHAT DO YOU. THE 

IDEA IS THAT PEOPLE MOVE AND CAN MOVE AND YOU CAN'T MOVE THE 

(INAUDIBLE) SO IT IS EXTRA IMPEDIMENT. THE VERTICAL POLES WOULD 

ALLOW SOMEBODY TO MOVE SLIGHTLY INSIDE THE CAR AND HAVE 

SOMETHING TO GET A HOLD OF IF THEY ARE UNSTEADY OR WHATEVER. BUT 

THERE'S ENOUGH ROOM I THINK TO GET AROUND THAT WIND SCREEN THAT, 

SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE PEOPLE CONJUGATED BY THE DOOR BUT NOT, THEY 

CAN GET OUT OF THE WAY OF SOMEBODY COMING IN, IN THE CHAIR. THERE'S 

LOTS OF ROOM FOR PEOPLE TO SORT OF MOVE, CONTINUE TO HANG ONTO 

THE VERTICAL EXTENSION AND MOVE AROUND THE CORNER SO THEY ARE 

OUT OF THE WAY. THE PROBLEM WITH THE VERTICAL EXTENSION IN THE 

CENTER IS THAT PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE UNSTEADY WOULD SORT OF MOVE 

TOWARD IT AND THEY ARE SORT OF STUCK THERE. THEY CAN'T GET OUT OF 

THE WAY AND STILL HANG ONTO THE POLE AND ARE THEN IN THE WAY OF 

ANYBODY COMING IN AND OUT OF THE CARS ESPECIALLY IF YOU GOT TO 

COME IN ON ONE SIDE IN A CHAIR AND GO OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE.

BLAIR: THANKS DENNIS. THAT WAS A VERY GOOD POINT. THINKING ABOUT 

THAT IF YOU STUCK A POST IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT SPACE WOULD IT 

BECOME VERY DIFFICULT AND YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT IF PEOPLE ARE IN A 

POSITION WHERE THEY CAN STEP ASIDE OR ROTATE AROUND THE POLE 

THEY ARE MORE APT TO DO IT AND BEING BY THE WIND SCREENS AND SOME 

OF THESE OTHER CONDITIONS IS MORE CONDUCIVE SO THAT.

THE LAST SET OF PHOTO GRAPHS THE M 7 WHICH ARE NEWER. THEY ARE 

INTERESTING. IN THE VERY FIRST PHOTOGRAPH IN THAT BATCH, LET'S SEE --

ACTUALLY IT IS THE SECOND PHOTOGRAPH IN THAT BATCH WHERE YOU CAN 

SEE THERE'S A -- I GUESS IT IS A DESIGNATED AREA YOU CAN GET 

WHEELCHAIR INTO A VERY ABBREVIATED WIND SCREEN AND EXTENSION TO 

GO ALONG WITH IT. I JUST WONDER IF THAT CONDITION GETS US BACK TO 

THE THING WE WERE TRYING TO AVOID WHICH IS HAVING PEOPLE 

CONJUGATE TOO MUCH BY THE DOOR OR IS THE A REASONABLE TRADE OFF 

TO OPEN THAT UP SO IT IS EASIER TO MANEUVER INTO THE DESIGNATED 
SPACE. ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS. I'M HAVING TROUBLE FIGURING OUT THE 

PHOTOGRAPH YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE THERE IS NO NUMBER.

BLAIR: BEAR WITH ME A SECOND DENNIS IS. THE LAST ONE -- THE NUMBER IS 

PICTURE 6 LONG I'D RAILROAD COMPUTER CAR WHICH IS ON -- LET'S SEE --

DENNIS: THERE IS A DATE 10, 15, 14. IN THE LOWER RIGHT HAND CORNER.

SPEAKER: THAT'S STILL THE M 3 CAR. THE LAST PHOTOGRAPH THE LAST 5 

DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ON THEM AT ALL SO THAT'S THE ONE PAGE 7 OF THE 

HANDOUTS OR 5 PHOTOS FOR THE BOTTOM OF WHAT WAS POSTED TO THE 

WEB BEGINNING THE M 7 CAR.

SPEAKER: LET ME COUNT UP THEN. OKAY.

BLAIR: THERE'S A POSTER WITH SOMEBODY'S LEGS ON IT SAYS HAVING HAD -

- I THINK SOMEONE TORE THE POSTER IN HALF

SPEAKER: IN GREEN.

SPEAKER: YEAP THAT'S THE ONE.

SPEAKER: OKAY AND THERE'S A DOOR RIGHT BESIDE JUST TO THE LEFT OF 

THE SPACE.

SPEAKER: YES.

SPEAKER: OKAY.

SPEAKER: THAT, THE VERY NEXT PHOTOGRAPH IS TAKEN FROM OUTSIDE THE 

CAR LOOKING IN BUT THAT HAS THAT ABBREVIATED BULK HEAD THERE AND 
ON THE OTHER SIDE THERE IS YOU KNOW A REGULAR WIDTH WIND SCREEN 

BUT LIGHTS LIKE AN EFFORT WAS TO OPEN THAT PATHWAY UP SO IT IS A 

LITTLE EASIER YOU KNOW, TO COME IN AND MOVE AROUND WITHOUT HAVING 

TO GO TO A PARTICULAR DEFINED DOOR SPACE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT DENNIS?

DENNIS: YEAH. THAT LOOKS -- AGAIN THE ISSUE IS REALLY TO TRY TO KEEP 

THAT AREA BETWEEN DOORS CLEAR. SO THAT YOU GO FROM ONE SIDE TO 

THE OTHER SO HAVE YOU FOR MOVE AROUND THE CORNER AND GET INTO 

THIS SPACE BUT LOOKS LIKE THERE IS WIDE ENOUGH AISLES TO DO THAT 

WITHOUT MAJOR HASSLES. THERE'S NO FIX THE EXTENSION IN THE WAY. 

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT. THINGS YOU CAN'T MOVE. PEOPLE 

WILL CONJUGATE THERE NO MATTER WHAT.

SPEAKER: YES AND EVEN SOME OF THE NEWER DEVICES REALLY 

ENCOURAGE THAT EVEN MORE BECAUSE THEY SPROUT INTO FOUR HAD 

THEY GET HIGHER. SO SORT OF SHOUT OUT HERE COME HERE AND HANG 

ON, WHICH IS THEIR JOB.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE POLES IN PLACE MINUS THE PEOPLE STANDING 

THERE THEY DON'T LOOK SO BAD BUT KNOWING YOU ARE GOING TO FILL 

THOSE THING UP WITH PEOPLE AND THEY TAKE UP ROOM AND THAT'S GOING 

TO INROACH ON ANY PATHWAY NEARBY SO I THOUGHT THESE WERE NICE 

IMAGES TO GIVE US AN IDEA OF HOW YOU CAN HAVE REASONABLY 

ACCESSIBLE SPACE AND HAND HOLDS AND THINGS WITHOUT THE POLES IN 

THE MIDDLE.

NOW ELSEWHERE IN THE VEHICLE WHEN YOU GET AWAY FROM THE 

DOORWAY AND ACCESSIBLE SPACES THERE MAYBE OTHER DEVICES, I DON'T 

KNOW BUT THEY WOULDN'T -- IT WOULDN'T HAVE ANY EFFECT ON 

CIRCULATION RIGHT BY THE DOOR.

WITH THAT, IF WE CAN LOOK AT THE AGENDA ITEM FOR JUST NUMBER 5 

WHICH IS NOTE 6 B ON THE MATRIX.

SPEAKER: THERE'S A MOVIE ABOUT THE MATRIX.

SPEAKER: GETTING ALMOST THAT COMPLICATED. THAT TAKES US BACK TO 

THE ISSUE OF TRYING TO DEFINE THE CLEAR SPACE ACROSS THE CAR. MY 

IMPRESSION IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO GO FORWARD RECOMMENDING THIS 

CLEAR SPACE ACROSS THE CAR. I KNOW THAT FROM SOME E-MAIL WAS 
AARON OUT IN AT BART HE CONTINUES TO HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THAT. 

AND I WILL HAVE ANOTHER CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

I KNOW MARILYN SENT ME A NOTE HOW WE'RE GOING TO WORD THIS. WHAT I 

HAVE WRITTEN RIGHT NOW EVERYTHING THAT'S IN RED IS WHAT I ADDED 

SINCE THE LAST TIME. AND SO LET ME READ THAT OUT FOR FOLKS WHO 

AREN'T SEEING THIS. THE OPINION EXPRESSED GENERALLY BY THE 

COMMUNITY MEMBERS IS VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF RECOMMENDING THE 

CLEAR PROJECTED SPACE 44 "S WIDE ACROSS THE VEHICLE ASSUMING THE 

DOORS ARE ACROSS FROM EACH OTHER THE MOST CONCERN IT CAN BE 

DIFFICULT OR IMPRACTICAL FOR FOLKS USING WHEELCHAIR TO MOVE INTO 

SPACE OR OFF THE TRAINEE FENCES. MANEUVERING CAN BE DIFFICULT. 

REGULATION IS OFTEN AN UNFORTUNATE NECESSITY TO ENSURE THAT 

WHAT SHOULD BE COURTESY IN CIVILIZED SOCIETY IS GUARANTEED 

PARTICULARLY WHEN SOME OF THE PEOPLE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO EXERCISE 

THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. IF SEEN DURING THE 

COURSE OF THE R VAC WORK IT WAS FOUND BY ONE PROVIDER OTHER 

SYSTEMS ARE CONCERNED THAT SAFETY MAY BE COMPROMISED WHILE IT IS 

MOST LIKELY THE SUBCOMMITTEE AND FULL COMMITTEE RECOMMENDS A 44 

INCH DIMENSION ACROSS THE CAR PERHAPS THE ACCESS BOARD COULD 

BEST SERVE THE COMMUNITY AND PROVIDERS BY CONSIDERING STUDIES 

MODIFICATIONS AND PROCUREMENTS UNDERWAY BEFORE CONSIDERING 

THE RULE. OFTEN CHANGE THAT'S SEEM IMPRACTICAL CREATE PROBLEMS 

BY THOSE EXPERIENCED BY THE WASHINGTON D.C. METRO. WE CAN 

CERTAINLY WRITE UP. AND I DO THINK THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH KNOWING 

THERE'S ACTIVITIES GOING ON WITH BART AND OTHER AGENCIES IT WOULD 

BE WORTH LEAVING SOME SORT OF LANGUAGE TO THAT EFFECT TO THE 

ACCESS BOARD FOLKS.

ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

SPEAKER: THIS IS -- OH, -- SORRY. I THOUGHT -- OKAY. I THOUGHT 

THIS IS MARILYN. IF I THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD WRITE UP ONE POINT, I 

KNOW FOR THE BOARD TO CONSIDER ALL THE THINGS THEY ALWAYS 

CONSIDER, IS SORT OF ALL IS TRUE FOR EVERYTHING. SO I DON'T KNOW 

THAT THERE'S A NEED TO PARTICULARLY CALL IT OUT. I THINK IT IS GOOD 

THAT YOU POINTED OUT THAT YOU KNOW, OTHER SYSTEMS ALTHOUGH WE 

HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THAT MANY BUT CONCERNING SAFETY I WOULD LIKE 

TO YOU ADD THERE ARE ALSO VOICES FROM INDUSTRY WHO HAVE STATED 

THAT PREYING FLOW AND OTHER REASONS THE (PASSENGER FLOW) THE UPTO-DATE PRACTICE IS MOVING AWAY FROM HAVING THE POLES FROM RAPID 
MOVING RAIL CARS AND BLAIR YOU AND I CHANGED E-MAILS ABOUT THAT 

GENTLEMAN THAT SAID THAT IN RECENT MEETINGS. SO IT IS NOT ON THE 

DISABILITY COMMUNITY. THOSE MUCH MY COMMENTS I THOUGHT 

OTHERWISE IT IS A GOOD WRITE UP. I THOUGHT IT IS A VERY POLITE -- VERY 

SORT OF DEFERENTIAL TO EVERYBODY AND I JUST HOPE THAT YOU KNOW, IN 

A GOOD WAY, I JUST HOPE AT THE SAME TIME IT IS CLEARER WHAT WE'RE 

SAYING. BUT I THINK IT PROBABLY IS AND I THINK YOU HAVE DONE A GOOD 

JOB CAPTURING THE DISCUSSION.

SPEAKER: MARILYN THIS IS MARSHA MAZZ AND IF I MAY -- I GET THE POINT 

ABOUT COURTESY. BUT I THINK THAT'S A BALANCED BY YOU KNOW, NEEDS 

TO BE BALANCED BY THE POINT THE DESIGN ITSELF CAN WORK AGAINST 

COURTESY. IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. AND SO BY ENCOURAGING PEOPLE, 

NOT JUST BY PROVIDING SOMETHING FOR THEM TO TEMPORARILY HOLD 

ONTO BUT BY PROVIDED WHAT LOOKS LIKE SANCTIONED STANDING SPACES 

THAT OBSTRUCT THE WHEELCHAIR SPACE AND MANEUVERING YOU ARE 

REALLY ASKING THAT WHEELCHAIR SPACE TO DO DOUBLE DUTY AND I 

UNDERSTAND WHY.

BUT IN THE END YOUR DESIGN REALLY HAS TO ENABLE AND INVITE PEOPLE 

TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE WHEELCHAIR SPACE WHEN THAT SPACE IS 

NEEDED BY OUR USER. AND, I THINK THAT SOME MORE CAREFUL ATTENTION 

TO DESIGN FOR CROWDING CONDITIONS IS REALLY WARRANTED. DOES THAT 

THAT MAKE SENSE?

BLAIR: DOES IT MARSHA. AND I THINK --

SPEAKER: AND IT MAY GO TO BEYOND JUST WHERE YOU PUT THE 

EXTENSIONS IT MAY GO TO HOW YOU, HOW CLOSE YOU PUT YOUR SEATING 

TO THE OPEN SPACE IN BETWEEN, IN BETWEEN SEATS AND YOUR CORRIDOR. 

BECAUSE IF YOUR CORRIDOR LOOKS LIKE A PLACE WHERE A PERSON CAN BE 

TRAPPED AND THE OPEN SPACE BY THE DOORS LOOKS MORE AMENABLE TO 

ESCAPE THAT'S WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COLLECT.

BLAIR: RIGHT. I THINK IT WAS INTERESTING IN THE LONG ISLAND WHERE THEY 

HAD THAT ABBREVIATED WIND SCREEN WALL THAT THE HARD BARRIER WAS 

REMOVED SO THINKING ABOUT THAT SPACE BEING FULL OF PEOPLE, THAT 

STANDEES THAT NEED TO MOVE OUT OF THE WAY MIGHT HAVE A BETTER 

WAY TO MOVE OUT OF THE WAY BUT ON THE OTHER HAND WITH THE WALL 
OUT OF THE WAY DOES THAT CREATE MORE SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO STAND

SPEAKER: MY THOUGHT -- THAT PERSON WHO ALWAYS STANDS WITH THEIR 

BACK FLAT AGAINST THE WIND SCREEN AS SUPPORT AND THEY STAND 

THERE, YOU HAVE A WIND SCREEN ON EACH SIDE THE DOOR SO YOU GOT 

TWO PEOPLE BASICALLY WITH THEIR BACKS PRESSED AGAINST THE FULL 

WIDTH OF THE WIND SCREEN BECAUSE THAT IS SHORTER IT IS NOT POSSIBLE 

TO DO THAT. SO NOT ONLY HAVE YOU REMOVED AN OBSTACLE THAT IS 

PERMANENT BUT THAT PERSON WHO PLANTS THEIR FEET AND STANDS 

AGAINST THE WIND SCREEN HAS A PLACE TO DO THAT. SO THIS IS SOME 

PSYCHOLOGY TO THIS BUT THEY ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE NICE AND FIRMLY 

PLANTED GUARDING THEIR TERRITORY. AND SO, I ACTUALLY THINK THAT BY 

OPENING IT UP THEY HAVE NOT ONLY MADE IT EASIER FOR A WHEELCHAIR 

USER TO MANEUVER BUT THEY REMOVED THAT SANCTIONED PERSONAL 

SPACE.

BLAIR: IT IS A FINE LINE, I THINK. AND I THINK YOU MADE A GOOD POINT 

BEFORE WHEN YOU MENTIONED THAT THE DESIGN CAN WORK AGAINST 

COURTESY. AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET UP IN THE MORNING AND 

SAY I'M GOING TO GO BE DISCOURTEOUS TO FOLKS ON THE TRAIN BUT IT 

WORKS OUT TO BE THAT WAY AND PART IS PEOPLE DON'T PAY ATTENTION. 

TO THE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW WE USED TO LEARN IF KINDERGARTEN 

THERE WAS A BOOK CALLED: EVERYTHING I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I 

LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN WHICH IS A GOOD BOOK.

SPEAKER: IT WAS A GOOD BOOK

SPEAKER: AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS ROLE INTO THAT. SO, THE TASK IS 

GOING TO BE TO WRITE THIS UP. AGAIN I THOUGHT ORIGINALLY THE EASIEST 

THING TO DO WAS TO PROJECT THE CLEAR, DESIRED CLEAR SPACE ACROSS 

THE CAR AND IF YOU GO AT IT WITH LET'S GO TO THE EDGE OF THAT CLEAR 

SPACE AND PUT A POST THEN MAYBE IT DOESN'T WORK SO WELL BUT, I 

THINK IT DOES COME DOWN TO DESIGNING SO THAT WE'RE ENCOURAGED TO 

STAND OR YOU ACCUMULATE WHERE THEY NEED BE. AND BEING THERE NOT 

CREATING AN OBSTACLE WHEN PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO BOARD OR DETRAIN. 

I DON'T REMEMBER IF -- WHO IT WAS FROM THE MANUFACTURE IF IT WAS 

ANDRES OR STEVE FROM LTC WHO MENTIONED BEFORE THE TREND. ANDRE -
-

SPEAKER: I'M SORRY THIS IS MARILYN. IT WAS STEVE.

SPEAKER: YES -- IT WASN'T ME.

BLAIR: OKAY. AND I DON'T REALLY SEE STEVE IS ON SEE IF WE HAVE ANYONE 

ON FROM TLC TODAY BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING THEY ARE 

SEEING THAT TREND ON THE MANUFACTURING SIDE TO PAY ATTENTION TO 

THESE THINGS AND I THINK THAT TREND PART OF IT IS THE MATURING OF 

REALLY GETTING THE CONCEPT OF ACCESSIBILITY AND NOT TREATING IT OR 

NOT SWIMMING UP STREAM AGAINST SOMETHING THAT IS JUST TOO MUCH 

TROUBLE TO SWIM AGAINST. AND WHAT YOU GET IN THE END MAY NOT BE AS 

GOOD AS IT COULD BE IF YOU REALLY EMBRACED THE POSITIVES, THE 

UNINTENDED POSITIVE CONSEQUENCES OF BUILDING IN THE ACCESSIBILITY. 

IT SEEMS THAT WE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT LIKE --

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS. I WANTED TO MAYBE KIND OF PUT A HEAD ON IT. 

AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE GENERAL CONSENSUS FROM EVERYBODY THERE 

OUGHT TO BE A CLEAR PATH FROM ONE DOOR TO THE OTHER AND THE ONLY 

OBJECTION I HEARD WAS FROM BART. AM I WRONG? ANY OTHER PROBLEMS 

PEOPLE HAVE. SEEMS WE'RE SPENDING LOT OF TIME DEALING WITH ONE 

AGENCY'S OBJECTION TO IT. AS WE LOOK AT THE PICTURE THAT KEN TOOK 

THERE IS LOTS OF OTHER CARS AROUND THAT SHOW PLENTY OF CLEAR 

SPACE AND HAND RAILS AND PLACES GRAB ONTO AND PLACE TO STANDS 

THAT DON'T HAVE A POLE IN THE CENTER SO I'M NOT SURE -- IT SEEMS TO ME 

WE MADE IT PRETTY MUCH AN AGREEMENT WITH ONE OBJECTION.

SPEAKER: THIS IS KEN. I JUST JOINED AND THAT'S WHAT MY RECOLLECTION 

IS AS WELL.

SPEAKER: I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU NOEL I DO HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE ON 

THE CALL DON, CHRISTOPHER HARD. GLEN MILLIS. KEN, ROBERT ROYER AND 

FRANK.
SPEAKER: ROSE, IS THERE SOMETHING YOU NEED FROM ME?

SPEAKER: NO THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH, CHRIS. THANK YOU.

SPEAKER: THIS IS BOB REUTER WHEN I WAS IN HOUSTON AS THE 

CONVENTION I WAS ON THE BART MOCK UP AND THEY HAD MOVED THAT 

POLE TO THE CENTER SOME AND IT LOOKS LIKE THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM 

THERE NOW.

MELISSA: ARE YOU TRYING TO KEEP THE POLE OR PEOPLE OUT OF THE 

SPACE A. LOT OF METRO CARS HAVE OVERHEAD HAND HELDS AND PEOPLE 

CAN STAND AND HANG ON AT THE CEILING LEVEL.

SPEAKER: THE PROBLEM IS THEY PARK THEMSELVES THERE MELISSA AND 

THEY DON'T MOVE. PARTICULARLY IF THE DESIGN DOESN'T INVITE THEM TO 

MOVE.

SPEAKER: THIS IS CHRIS. THE POST EXTENSIONS INCLUDES (INAUDIBLE) 

OBSTACLE TO GET AROUND.

SPEAKER: RIGHT AND THIS IS MELISSA ANDERSON AND MY POINT IS IF YOU 

ARE TRYING TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT YOU NEED TO ADDRESS THE OVERHEAD.

SPEAKER: THIS IS GOING TO GET FILLED AT PEAK HOURS SO NO MATTER 

WHAT AGENCY, THINK ABOUT SOME OVERHEAD HAND HOLDS. SO AT THAT 

POINT THE COMMITTEE MAY AT LEAST WANT TO DEFINE WHAT THOSE ARE. 

JUST SO THERE'S SOME (INAUDIBLE) ON THAT.

SPEAKER: MELISSA, MY IMPRESSION HAS BEEN BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT 

REALLY TALKED ABOUT THE OVERHEAD HAND HOLDS THAT YES. CHRIS'S 

POINT PEOPLE ARE GOING BE IN THAT SPACE DURING PEAK HOURS 

REGARDLESS. THEY WILL BE THERE WITH SOMETHING TO HOLD ONTO OR 

NOTHING BUT I THINK THEY WILL BE THERE. I THINK THE BIGGEST PROBLEM 

IS WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS SOMEONE NEEDS TO GET ON OR OFF THE TRAIN 

AND IF YOU KNOW PEOPLE TO DENNIS'S PEOPLE, PEOPLE CAN MOVE THEY'RE 

FLEXIBLE. THEY CAN EVEN MOVE AND HOLD ONTO AN OVERHEAD BAR TO 

MAKE A PATH. BUT IN THAT PATH THERE IS A VERTICAL STANSION THE 
CHOICES OF PEOPLE TRYING TO GET OUT OF THE WAY, SO I THINK THE 

BIGGER ISSUE IS AWAY FROM THE FLOOR.

AM I SEEING THAT CORRECTLY

SPEAKER: THIS IS BOB. ONE OF THE THINGS I NOTICED IN ONE CAR IT 

DOESN'T HAVE MODEST PANELS INSIDE THE DOOR. MOST HAVE BARGAIN IN 

THE THE DOOR ON THE SIDE AND THE BART CARS SEEM TO BE MORE OPEN.

SPEAKER: DENNIS: I SUSPECT SOME OF THOSE DESIGNS WILL BE DIFFERENT 

DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU ARE LOCATED. IF YOU ARE IN A VERY WINDY 

CITY LIKE CHICAGO WITH LOTS OF WIND AND COLD AIR YOU MAY WANT TO 

HAVE THOSE PANELS THERE. IN ANOTHER AREA WHICH IS A LITTLE MILDER, 

YOU MIGHT WANT NEED THOSE. I THINK PART OF THAT IS TO KEEP THE WIND 

AND THE RAIN AND EVERYTHING. I WAS SITTING IN ONE OF THE METRO CARS 

YEARS AGO WHEN WE HAD ONE OF THESE FREAK THUNDERSTORMS COME 

UP AND AS SOON AS THE DOOR OPENED I GOT DRENCHED WITH THIS WATER 

BEING BLOWN IN BECAUSE OF THE WINDS SO I SUSPECT IN SOME AREAS YOU 

ARE GOING TO HAVE THOSE WIND SCREENS AND SOME AREAS YOU ARE NOT 

AND I'M NOT SURE WE CAN SAY THAT THEY SHOULD NEVER BE THERE FOR 

ANY REASON. I THINK WE DESIGNED THOSE KIND OF THINGS IT IS GO TO 

VARY FROM PLACE TO PLACE.

MARILYN: ANOTHER POINT IS THAT, JUST A COUPLE COMMENTS MADE A FEW 

MINUTES AGO. ONE OF THE BART DESIGNS HAD RELOCATED A POLE 

FARTHER INSIDE THE CAR. NOW I'M NOT SURE OWE OPEN THE DESIGNS I'VE 

SEEN DON'T MOVE IT ALL THAT MUCH BUT MAYBE THERE ARE OTHER 

DESIGNS I HAVEN'T SEEN. BUT AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT ALLOWS FOR THE 44 

INCH, YOU KNOW, SQUARE TO MOVE ACROSS THE PICTURE WITHOUT 

RUNNING INTO A POLE BUT THE COMMENTS IN THIS DECISION SUGGEST TO 

ME THAT EVEN IF IT IS OUT OF THE WAY OF THAT 44 INCHES, IT IS STILL A 

BLOCKAGE WITH PEOPLE AROUND THE POLE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO -- CAPTURE THAT CONCERN IN TERMS OF LANGUAGE. 

BUT, IT JUST OCCURRED TO ME LISTENING TO PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.

SPEAKER: BOB. WHEN I SAW THE CAR IN HOUSTON THEY MODIFIED IT AND 

THE POLE WAS MOVED TO THE CENTER OF THE CAR. THERE WAS 44 INCHES 

STRAIGHT ACROSS BUT YOU HAD TO DO A V SHAPE TO GET AROUND THE 

POLE WOULD STILL BE IN YOUR WAY TO A POINT BUT THERE WAS PLENTY OF 
ROOM ON THAT SIDE THERE WERE NO SEATS -- TOWARDS THE END OF THE 

CAR THERE WERE NO SEATS. ONE ROW WAS NOT THERE.

SPEAKER: ONE THING IS THAT THE BART CARS ARE A LITTLE HARDER --

CERTAINLY IN CHICAGO, AS WELL AS THE BART CARS. SO THERE'S CERTAIN 

THINGS THAT MAY APPLY IN TERMS OF THINKING HOW PEOPLE CAN SECURE 

THEMSELVES, SECURE THEIR RIDE AS STANDEES AND IT IS REALLY AS BIG OF 

A CONCERN.

SPEAKER: CERTAINLY THE BART CARS OF THE WIDEST PUBLIC CARS IN THE 

UNITED STATES.

SPEAKER: RIGHT. TOKYO OR KYOTO AND IN THOSE COUNTRIES. AND ONE 

THING YOU FOLKS MAY WANT TO THINK ABOUT IS WHAT DOES THAT HAND 

RAIL LOOK LIKE THAT COMES DOWN AT THE SEAT, YOU KNOW. IS THAT A 

POLE? OR IS THAT ONLY A HAND RAIL? IT VARIES RIGHT NOW. YOU START TO 

PUT IN A VERTICAL POLE, YOU MAY ACTUALLY NOT NEED A POLE IN THE 

CENTER AREA.

SPEAKER: THIS IS KEN SHIOTANI. THE POWERPOINT T THAT I DON'T KNOW IF 

FOLKS HAVE SEEN YET SHOWS, HAS PICTURES FROM TORONTO SOME OLD

DC METRO CARS AND THE NEWEST ONES IN-SERVICE, THE 6 THOUSAND SO 

WHEN WE'RE DISCUSSING -- FOR ME SEEING THE STUFF MAKES ME -- MAKES 

IT MORE HELPFUL TO UNDERSTAND AND I THINK WHEN WE GET TO THEM, 

SOME OF THE OLDER CARS HAVE A VERTICAL POLE GOING FROM -- THAT'S A 

WAY FROM THE MODESTY PLATE AND GOES TO THE CEILING. THE NEWER 

CARS DON'T HAVE THAT THE TORE RON TO CARS DON'T HAVE THAT BUT THEY 

HAVE POLES TO GO UP AND THEY ALSO HAVE ALONG THE EDGE OF THE 

DOORWAY IN SOME OF THE TORONTO CARS SO I TOOK THE PICTURES SO WE

COULD JUST HAVE A SENSE OF DIFFERENT IDEAS. I DON'T KNOW HOW WE 

PUT IT INTO RECOMMENDATIONS BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF THE NEWER CARS 

DO SEEM TO MOVE AWAY FROM POLES IN THE CENTER OF THE FLOOR. NEAR 

THE DOORS OR AWAY FROM THE DOORS OR WHEREVER AND GO TO HAND 

POLE THAT'S GO UP FROM THE SEATS OR THE MODESTLY PANELS TO GIVE 

FOLKS THINGS TO HAND ONTO.
SPEAKER: BOB. WHEN I WAS IN HOUSTON I TOOK A LARGE NUMBER OF 

PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE INSIDE OF THIS CAR BECAUSE I KNEW WE WERE 

TALKING ABOUT IT SO I COULD SEND THOSE UP TO MELISSA I GUESS AND LET 

HER PUT THEM OUT.

SPEAKER: KEN, THIS IS BLAIR, I KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO BE A LITTLE LATE 

GETTING HERE. WE DIDN'T GO THROUGH YOUR POWERPOINT BECAUSE IT 

WAS YOURS.

SPEAKER: AND THEY'RE BASICALLY JUST SNAPSHOTS OF THE INTERIORS OF 

THE CAR BUT IT WILL HELP PEOPLE SEE WHAT IS BEING DONE AND THE 

NEWEST TORONTO CARS ARE IMPRESSIVE BECAUSE OF THE DESIGN ISSUES 

THEY HAVE A FULL WIDTH GANGWAY OR THAT'S WHAT WIKIPEDIA CALLS IT. 

YOU CAN MOVE WITH NO DIFFICULT IT IS ALMOST THE FULL WIDTH OF CAR. IT 

IS PRETTY COOL.

SPEAKER: COULD YOU RUN THROUGH YOUR POWERPOINT. I THINK IT WOULD 

BE WORTH GOING THROUGH IT AND IF THERE'S ANY HIGHLIGHTS THAT YOU 

ARE IMMEDIATELY AWARE OF IF YOU COULD POINT THOSE OUT AND WE CAN 

GO BACK AND WRAP THIS POINT UP AND MOVE ON AND DECIDE HOW WE'RE 

GOING TO GO FORWARD WITH OUR RECOMMENDATIONS.

SPEAKER: OKAY.

SPEAKER: BLAIR BEFORE KEN STARTS THIS IS MARSHA IF I MAY RESPOND TO 

BOB. WE HAVE A LOT OF PHOTOGRAPHS NOW. KEN HAS GIVEN US TONS OF 

THEM. IF YOU FEEL THAT HAVE YOU PHOTOGRAPHS THAT ILLUSTRATE 

SOMETHING NOT SHOWN TRY TO GO AHEAD AND SEND THEM BUT I'M GOING 

TO ASK PEOPLE FROM REFRAIN FROM SENDING IN MATERIALS THAT ARE 

DUPLICATED ELSEWHERE ON THE SITE BECAUSE IT TAKES LOT OF STAFF 

TIME TO GET THESE THINGS ACCESSIBLE AND UP ON THE SITE AND I'M JUST 

GOING TO PLEAD FOR MERCY ON MY STAFF.

SPEAKER: THE ONES I HAVE ARE THE BRAND NEW ONES OF THE CAR. CAN 

YOU DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO PUT THEM ON.

SPEAKER: TELL YOU WHAT, YOU DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE 

ILLUSTRATING SOMETHING NOT SHOWN IF SO, FINE. BUT JUST THINK ABOUT 
IT TWICE BEFORE YOU SEND A LOT OF STUFF THAT MY STAFF HAS TO -- GET --

SPEAKER: AND BOB IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING REALLY YOU THINK IS 

DIFFERENT SEND TO IT ME AND I CAN WRITE A CAPTION OR I CAN --

SPEAKER: OKAY THERE YOU GO. I WILL SEND TO IT YOU. I'M SORRY -- YOU 

ARE?

SPEAKER: KEN.

SPEAKER: JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD THE RIGHT PERSON.

SPEAKER: SO WE CAN JUST IF PEOPLE HAVE IT WE CAN SKIP THROUGH TO --

LET ME SEE HOW MANY HERE -- I DID CERTAIN THINGS FOR ANOTHER 

PURPOSE SO IT IS -- ALL RIGHT. SEVEN. THE FIRST SLIDE ACCESSIBILITY IN 

RAPID RAIL SUBWAYS. THESE ARE THE NOT THE NEWEST CARS IN TORONTO 

AND I HAVE A TWO SHOTS OF SORT OF THE WHEELCHAIR SPACE AND I GUESS 

FOR PURPOSES OF THIS DISCUSSION THE THINGS TO HIGHLIGHT YOU CAN 

SEE IN THE LEFT HAND PICTURE THE TWO MODESTY PAN ALWAYS IN A 

VERTICAL BAR GOING UP ON THE PASSENGER STANDEE SIDE AND THERE IS 

ALSO A HORIZONTAL BAR WITH A STRAP WHAT USED TO BE CALLED STRAP 

HANGER THINGS. AGAIN I DON'T KNOW AL THE JARGON BUT ONE OF THE 

THINGS YOU CAN HOLD ONTO N. THAT CAR DESIGN THEY DON'T HAVE, IF YOU 

LOOK IN THE PICTURE ON THE RIGHT, THEY DON'T HAVE VERTICAL GRABS 

OVER THE DOOR OR FROM THE CEILING. I THINK THE IDEA IS TO ENCOURAGE 

PEOPLE TO MOVE INTO THE CAR AND AGAIN I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S A GOOD 

DESIGN OR NOT. I'M JUST SAYING HERE'S EXAMPLES OF WHAT AGENCIES DO. 

TO, THAT SORT OF LEAVES A LOT OF OPEN SPACE BUT DOES HAVE A 

REASONABLE NUMBER OF VERTICAL THINGS FOR STANDEES.

IN THE RIGHT PHOTOGRAPH THERE'S A WOMEN IN A WHEELCHAIR BUT WHEN 

YOU SEE THE SEATS BEHIND HER AGAIN THERE'S FORWARD AND REAR 

FACING SEATS WITH A VERTICAL POLE THAT STARTS FROM THE BACK UP TO 

THE SEAT UP TO THE CEILING. SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S DESIGN -- THAT 

DESIGN, THE NEXT SLIDE JUST SHOWS FOR THE PURPOSES OF WHEN WE

WERE DISCUSSING DOOR WIDTH, THE TORONTO CARS, I THINK THERE IS 75 

FEET LONG 4 SETS OF DOORS ON EACH SIDE AND THE DOORS ARE WIDER

THAN MOST CARS AND I ASKED FOR THE WIDTH BECAUSE I FORGET TO BRING 
A TAPE MEASURE. BUT WE KNOW SOMEWHAT WIDER DOOR IS POSSIBLE 

THESE TORONTO CARS ARE ABOUT 60 SO NOT QUITE 30 PER LEAF 

DEFINITELY NOT 32 BUT THE TORONTO SYSTEM DECIDED TO DO WIDE 

DOORS, 4 ON EACH SIDE AND THE WIDTH IS ABOUT 60 INCHES. I THINK HE 

HAD IT IN MILLIMETERS SO APPROXIMATELY 60 INCHES.

SPEAKER: THIS ANDRE. I WOULD HAVE TO DOUBLE CHECK.

SPEAKER: IT SEEMS LIKE THE T 1 CARS LOOKED SIMILAR IN TERMS OF 

GENERAL YOU KNOW DOORWAYS AND SEATING STUFF BUT AGAIN I FORGET 

TO BRING A MEASURE BUT I'M NOT SURE BUT THEY DO SEEM CLEARLY WIDER 

THAN METRO CITY NEW YORK CITY SUBWAYS SO I THOUGHT WOULD BE 

HELPFUL.

NEXT SLIDE TORONTO ROBERT CAR. THAT'S WHAT IT IS CALLED?

SPEAKER: RIGHT. ONE COMMENT BEFORE YOU MOVE ON LOOK ON THE SLIDE 

7 JUST SO THAT PEOPLE ARE NOTICING THERE IS WIND SCREENS ON EACH 

SIDE OF THE DOOR SO THAT IS EXTENSIONS TOWARDS THE CENTER OF THE 

VEHICLE AND PEOPLE CAN ANGLE TO THEM AND YOU WILL SEE SOMETHING 

SIMILAR ON THE ROCKET, THE EAGLE. SO THERE IS NO EXTENSION IN THE 

MIDDLE OF THE DOORWAY BUT YOU HAVE EXTENSION AT THE WIND 

SCREENS.

SPEAKER: OKAY. SO GOING TO THE NEXT ONE THE ROCKET. THEY HAVE YOU 

KNOW AGAIN YOU CAN SEE THE WIDE DOOR ON THE PICTURE ON THE LEFT 

BUT ON PICTURE ON THE READY FOR ME THIS IS VERY COOL. YOU CAN LOOK 

ALL THE WAY DOWN THE CAR BECAUSE IT IS FULL WIDTH BUT FORS 

PURPOSES WE'RE FOCUSING ON YOU CAN SEE THERE ARE CEILING 

MOUNTED STRAPS IN THE CENTER OF THE CAR AND POLES THAT ANGLE 

FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE SEAT AND UP TO, CLOSE TO THE CEILING AND 

THEN ADDITIONAL POLES ON THE LATERAL SEATS. IS THAT WHAT THAT'S 

CALLED WITH THE SEATS ARE THAT WAY

SPEAKER: LONGITUDE

SPEAKER: YES. AND I THINK THERE -- TWO AND THREE -- TWO AND ONE AGAIN 

YOU CAN SEE A LOT OF CLEAR SPACE BUT A LOT OF GRABS, A LOT OF 
PLACES HANG ONTO IS WHAT I THOUGHT. THIS CAR WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE 

OF. NEXT SLIDE IS AGAIN SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT. VIEW OF THE CARS. I 

GUESS SOME OF THE LATITUDENAL SEATING ARE -- SOME PARTS OF THE 

CARS IT IS TWO'S SOME IT IS THREE OR FOUR. AGAIN I WAS TAKING 

SNAPSHOTS HAVING QUITE A BIT OF CLEAR FLOOR SPACE CAN BE DONE. 

JUST IF PEOPLE HAVEN'T SEEN THE TORONTO THE PICTURE ON THE LEFT OF 

THIS SLIDE IS THE GANGWAY BETWEEN THE CARS SO IT IS NOT OUT THE 

EXACT FULL WIDTH OF THE CAR BUT CHAIR USERS CAN GO THROUGH. THEY 

ARE PERMANENTLY COUPLED IN SIX CAR THINGS OR AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT 

WIKIPEDIA SAYS. IT IS NOT QUITE AS FLEXIBLE FOR THE OPERATOR AS 

PAIRED OR SINGLE CARS BUT IT DOES GAVE LOT OF SPACE FOR THE 

PASSENGERS.

NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE WHEELCHAIR PARKING SPACE. IN THE ROCKET CAR. 

AND AGAIN I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CANADIAN ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS 

ARE BUT SEEMS LIKE THEY HAVE A SOMEWHAT SIMILAR VIEW TO WHAT WE

HAVE HERE. IN THE U.S. AND I GUESS THE TWO THINGS THAT ARE JUST NOT 

AS COMMON IN OTHER TRANSIT VEHICLES I'VE SEEN IS THE VERTICAL GRAB 

BAR RIGHT NEXT TO THE DOOR, NEXT TO THE ACCESSIBLE PARKING SPACE, 

SINCE THERE'S NO WIND SCREEN IN THAT SPACE AND THERE'S A, I GUESS IT 

IS PROBABLY CALLED THE MODESTY PANEL.

OKAY. AND SO GOING ON, THESE ARE SOME OF THE OLDER DC METRO CARS 

THAT HAVE BOTH POLES THAT ARE IN FRONT THAT COME OUT FARTHER INTO 

THE CAR FROM THE MODEST TEA PANEL AND HAVE THREE POLES GOING 

TOWARDS THE CENTER OF THE CAR, TWO POLES NEXT TO THE MODEST TEA 

PANELS AND ONE IN THE CENTER OF THE AISLE AND THE 2000 CARS ARE ADA 

AND THERE IS ABOUT 30 INCHES BETWEEN THE POLES I DON'T HAVE THE 

EXACT MEASUREMENT BUT IT NOT 32. IT IS ABOUT 30 -- COULD I BE OFF BY 

HALF AN INCH. AND IT DOES, YOU KNOW, I HAVE HAD COLLEAGUES SAY THEY 

HAVE GOTTEN STUCK IN THOSE BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO APPROACH IT AS A 

PARTICULAR ANGLE. IF YOU DON'T GO PERPENDICULAR TO IT, IT IS -- IT CAN 

BE A TIGHT THING AND YOU CAN GET A LITTLE STUCK.

BUT YOU KNOW, THESE ARE OLDER DESIGNS BUT THIS JUST SHOWS WHAT 

TRANSIT AGENCIES HAVE DONE AND THAT IS 3000 CAR THAT HAS THE 

SIMILAR POLE CONFIGURATION BUT HAS SEATS NOT IN PLACE NEXT TO THE 

DOORS PRESUMABLY FOR A WHEELCHAIR SPACE BUT WOULD IT BE HARD TO 

NEGOTIATE FROM THE DOOR INTO THAT SPACE BECAUSE THE POLES ARE 

THERE AND THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO POLES IS 30 INCHES AND I 

FORGET TO MEASURE THE DISTANCE FROM THE POLE TO THE WALL BUT I 

THINK THAT'S AN EVEN TIGHTER DISTANCE.

SO, YOU KNOW, POLES CLEARLY CAN BE, GET IN THE WAY. AND PEOPLE 
STAND NEAR THE DOORS.

4000 CAR SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT. THERE IS NOW A DEDICATED WHEELCHAIR 

PARKING POSITION I DON'T THINK IT IS THE EASIEST TO GET INTO. BUT YOU 

KNOW IT IS THERE IT IS NEXT TO THE DOOR. BUT YOU KNOW YOU HAVE TO 

GO AROUND WHEELCHAIR USER WOULD HAVE TO MAKE A TURN OR PACK 

INTO IT AND DEAL WITH THE WIND SCREEN/MODEST TEA PANEL BY THE DOOR 

IN THIS 4000 CAR. THE PICTURE ON THE LEFT AND THE PICTURE ON THE 

RIGHT JUST SHOWS IT FROM A DIFFERENT VIEW AND JUST LOOKING -- I THINK 

ONE OF THE PICTURES IS A DUPLICATE LOOKING DOWN THE CAR WITH THE 

THREE POLES NEAR THE DOOR.

AND THE NEXT SLIDE THE 5000 ONE OF THE WHEELCHAIR POSITIONS DOES 

HAVE A FOLD UP SEAT. I THINK IN THE 4000 THERE WAS NO SEAT THERE SO IT 

LOOKS LIKE WE MAY HAVE MADE THE SPACE A LITTLE BIT WIDER AND PUT IN 

A FOLD UP SEAT. I DIDN'T REALIZE THERE WERE FOLD UP SEATS BECAUSE I 

HAVE NEVER SEEN THEM FOLD UP BUT I WAS NEITHER END OF THE LINE SO I 

TRITED IT AND IT DOES FOLD UP. SHOWING THAT CONFIGURATION.

AND THE NEXT SLIDE -- LET ME JUST BACK UP FOR A SECOND. I THINK ALL OF 

THE METRO CARS DO HAVE HORIZONTAL BARS ACROSS THE BACKS OF THE 

SEATS THAT ARE FORWARD FACING AND REAR FACING SO AGAIN PLACES 

FOR PEOPLE TO HANG ONTO WHEN THEY MOVE FARTHER INTO THE CAR.

SO, GETTING TO THE END OF MY TRANSIT CARS. THIS IS ONE I THINK IS THE 

CAR THAT DENNIS THOUGHT WAS A PRETTY USEABLE DESIGN. THE 600 0 

CARS HAVE A -- DON'T HAVE THE POLES NEAR THE DOORS NO VERTICAL 

POLES AT ALL FLOOR TO CEILING POLES, AND HAVE A L SHAPED GRAB BAR. IT 

IS ATTACHED TO THE WALL NEAR, NEXT TO THE WHEELCHAIR PARKING 

SPACE YOU CAN, IF NOBODY'S IN A WHEELCHAIR THERE STANDEES HAVE A 

PLACE. IF A POWER CHAIR USER I GUESS YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BARS 

BUT ADDITIONAL PLACES PEOPLE CAN HANG ONTO AGAIN SEEMS LIKE A 

GOOD DESIGN IN TERMS OF HAVING DIFFERENT BOTH VERTICAL AND 

HORIZONTAL THINGS TO HANG ONTO BUT LEAVING CLEAR SPACE FOR A 

CHAIR USER TO GO THROUGH. FACING THE OTHER WAY FROM THE CAR, 

FACING THE OTHER WAY FROM THE WHEELCHAIR SPACE, THE 600 0 CARS DO 

HAVE A VERTICAL BAR RIGHT NEXT TO THE DOOR. I FORGET THEY'RE THERE 

BUT NOW THAT I SEE THE PICTURE, THAT AGAIN SHOWS THAT, YOU KNOW, 

YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED A POLE IN THE FLOOR BUT COULD YOU HAVE 

A HANDLE THERE THAT MIGHT BE HELPFUL.

AND THEN I HAVE A FEW PICTURES OF THE BRAND NEW BONBARDIE FOUR 

ARTICULATED CAR IN TORONTO AND THE STREET CAR ARRANGEMENTS CAN 

BE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, SHOWING THE 

WHEELCHAIR PARKING SPACE FOLD UP SEATS, VARIOUS HAND RAILS NEXT 
TO THEM, SOME KIND OF HEADREST OR BODY REST OR SOMETHING.

SPEAKER: FOR RIDING BACKWARDS.

SPEAKER: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TECHNICAL TERM IS BUT IT IS JUST 

SOMETHING TO ASSIST A CHAIR USER WHO MIGHT WANT TO RIDE 

BACKWARDS TO HAVE SOMETHING TO STOP THEIR CHAIR AGAINST. A BUNCH 

OF STRAPS FROM THE CEILING

SPEAKER: ACTUALLY THIS IS AN DRAW, THE VERTICAL CUSHION IS FROM THE 

REGULATIONS AND IT WAS A REQUIREMENT FROM THE CUSTOMER OF THIS 

PROJECT.

SPEAKER: SO IT IS A SPECIFIC CANADIAN REQUIREMENT?

SPEAKER: YES. SO IT IS APPLIED.

SPEAKER: OKAY. BUT AGAIN JUST SHOWING SOME VERTICAL BARS SOME 

GRAB STRAPS FROM THE TOP, AND THEN THIS, I -- I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS 

APPROPRIATE TO ASK THE DRIVER TO DEPLOY THE RAMP BUT THAT SHOWS 

THE ACCESSIBLE DOOR AND IT IS A DOUBLE DOOR, GRABS ON EITHER SIDE 

AND A WIND SCREEN GOING AROUND THE OUTSIDE OF IT. AND THESE ARE 

SOME OTHER POSITIONS IN THE CAR FARTHER BACK. I THINK THERE'S A 

NARROW DOOR -- TWO SETS OF DOORS IN THE CENTER AND SMALLER ONE 

THE IN THE REAR AND A SECOND SET OF DOUBLE DOORS IS OPPOSITE THE 

BICYCLE STORAGE SPACE SO THIS IS SHOWING THE DOOR THAT IS NEXT TO 

THE BICYCLE SPACE AND IT DOES HAVE VERTICAL GRABS NEXT TO THE 

DOORS AND THE WIND SCREEN WITH THE BAR THAT GOES AROUND IT. AND 

THIS IS THE BICYCLE PARKING SPACE. THE NEXT SLIDE. AND I THINK THE 

LAST SLIDE ON THE RIGHT IS I THINK THAT'S FAR DOOR THE CAR. AGAIN WITH 

A WIND SCREEN WITH A BAR ON THE OUTSIDE. AND YOU CAN SEE VERTICAL 

BARS. THIS IS REALLY JUST TO SHOW THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT 

VARIATIONS AND I CAN'T REMEMBER -- THE LAST SLIDE I HAVE IS MILWAUKEE 

LIGHT RAIL. THEY USE THE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR THING OF A GLASS WIND 

SCREEN WITH VERTICAL BAR AROUND IT. AND YOU CAN SEE BARS, I DON'T 

KNOW -- AGAIN, PEOPLE WHO KNOW THIS INDUSTRY CAN HAVE -- HAVE ALL 

THE RIGHT TERMS BUT HIGH BARS NEAR THE CELLING TO COME DOWN WITH 
STRAPS SO THERE'S JUST A LOT OF PLACES FOR PEOPLE TO HANG ONTO 

AND ALSO BARS ON THE BACKS OF THE SEATS IN THAT CAR NEXT TO THE 

WHEELCHAIR PARKING SPACE. SO I THINK THAT'S IT. JUST TO GIVE -- I MEAN 

THE MAIN PURPOSE OF MY SUBMITTING THIS WAS TO JUST SHOW THERE'S A 

LOT OF PLACES PUT POLES OR OTHER GRAB PLACES FOR PEOPLE TO STAND, 

HANG ONTO WHICH, YOU KNOW, CLEARLY IS NECESSARY IN SUBWAYS AND 

LIGHT RAILS AND STREET CARS BUT IT DOES SEEM LIKE THE NEWER 

SYSTEMS ARE MOVING AWAY FROM HAVING FLOOR TO CEILING POLES. I 

HOPE THAT WAS HELPFUL AND NOT TOO BORING.

SPEAKER: KEN THANK YOU THIS IS BLAIR. IT WAS HELPFUL AND I THINK 

IMPRESSIVE LOOKING AT SOME NEWER VEHICLES THINKING IF YOU ARE 

GOING TO PUT A VERTICAL EXPANSION UP IT GOES TO THE FLOOR OR THE 

CEILING BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THE PROVIDERS AND THE MANUFACTURES HAVE 

DONE SOME PRETTY GOOD STUFF WITH MANAGING THE BARS. AND I'M 

LOOKING AT SOME OF THESE THINGS GOING I WOULDN'T MIND MOPPING THE 

FLOORS ON THESE CARS BECAUSE THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, EVERY TIME CAN 

AVOID SOMETHING GOING TO THE FLOOR IT IS ONE LESS SPOT FOR CRUD TO 

ACCUMULATE.

SPEAKER: THAT'S THE REAL REASON WHY THEY DO THAT.

SPEAKER: WELL YOU KNOW -- THAT GETS BACK TO ONE OF THOSE 

UNPLANNED AND SOME CASES UNPLANNED AND UNINTENDED POSITIVE 

CONSEQUENCES OF IMPROVING ACCESSIBLE AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT 

WAS EASIER TO CLEAN OR FOR ACCESSIBILITY AND ONE IS A FREEBEE

SPEAKER: AND WHOEVER BEING BLAMED AT THE TIME TAKINGS THE CREDIT.

SPEAKER: BLAIR THIS IS LINDA MARTIN. I JUST WANTED TO SAY I HOPE 

THINGS NEVER GET SO BAD AND AMTRAK YOU HAVE TO MOP THE FLOORS. 

THAT WASN'T MY LEGAL OPINION. I JUST HAD TO SAY IT. THANK YOU.

SPEAKER: THAT HURTS, LINDA.

SPEAKER: I THOUGHT THIS WAS THE HOLIDAYS. WOW.
SPEAKER: WE WERE ACTUALLY THINKING ABOUT GOING TO A FIRE HOSE AND 

BEING DONE IT.

SPEAKER: BLAIR KNOWS I LOVE HIM.

SPEAKER: A LITTLE BLEACH A LITTLE FIRE HOSE GOES A LONG WAY

SPEAKER: A COUPLE OF TRANSIT SYSTEMS TRIED THE HUGE HOSES BY THE 

DOORS.

SPEAKER: KEN THANK YOU. IT DOES SHOW GOOD THINKING ARE THE PART 

OF THE MANUFACTURING AND TRANSIT PROVIDERS. SO, I THINK UNLESS 

SOMEONE HAS A REALLY GOOD REASON WHY WE SHOULDN'T JUST STAY 

WITH THE 44 INCH ACROSS, MY THINKING IS WE SHOULD TAKE THAT 

FORWARD IS WHAT WE RECOMMEND TO THE FULL COMMITTEE. AND WE CAN -

- OBVIOUSLY SUGGEST THAT THE COMMITTEE LOOK FARTHER INTO IT OR I'M 

SORRY THE ACCESS BOARD LOOK FARTHER INTO IT AS SOME OF THESE 

THINGS ARE DEVELOPED AND TESTED BUY THINK TO PUT A ANYONE THE MAP 

AND MOVE FORWARD WE WANT TO GO WITH THE 44 AND I WOULD GO BACK 

INTO NOTE B WHERE I HAD WRITTEN LAST TIME IT IS IN GREEN IF YOU CAN 

SEE THE COLOR, THE PATH DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A STRAIGHT LINE ACROSS 

THE DOORWAYS. I THINK WHAT WE WANT TO SAY THE PATH SHOULD BE A 

STRAIGHT PATH ACROSS THE DOORWAYS AND THAT ENSURES A LEVEL OF 

MOBILITY MAKING SURE WE DON'T GET THE BARRIERS IMPOSED INTO THE 

PATH BECAUSE AGAIN, IT IS EASIER HE MORE PRACTICAL FOR STANDEES TO 

MAKE AN TEMPT GETTING OUT OF THE WAY BUT THE VERTICAL EXPANSION 

CAN'T MOVE.

SPEAKER: BLAIR THIS IS ANDRE. I GUESS THERE ARE TWO REQUIREMENTS 

HERE. SO WE NEED A CLEAR PATH, CLEAR SPACE BETWEEN THE TWO

DOORS? OF 44 INCHES? BUT WE ALSO NEED A CLEAR PATH TO THE 

ACCESSIBLE SPACE. THAT'S TWO DIFFERENT THINGS TO ME.

BLAIR: YES.

SPEAKER: SO THESE WOULD BE TWO DIFFERENT REQUIREMENTS THEY 

WOULD HAVE TO BE STATED SEPARATELY. I SAW THE CLEAR PATH 

SOMEWHERE IN THE TEXT AND I UNDERSTAND IT WOULD BE REPLACED BY 
THIS SPACE OF 44 INCHES BUT WE NEED TO KEEP THE CLEAR PATH AS WELL.

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE CLEAR PATH OBVIOUSLY 

FROM THE ACCESSIBLE DOOR INTO THE ACCESSIBLE SPACE. AND THEN IN 

ADDITION TO THIS BECAUSE WE HAVE DOORS ON BOTH SIDES OF LEAST 

MOST METRO CARS YOU GO FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER STRAIGHT 

ACROSS YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THERE IS A CLEAR PATH. THE PATH TO 

THE WHEELCHAIR SPACE HAS NEVER BEEN IN CONTENTION. THE 

CONTENTION IS WHERE HE DON'T NEED THE PATH ACROSS AND REMEMBER 

WHAT WE RECOMMEND, WHAT THE COMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THE FULL 

COMMITTEE OR WHATEVER RECOMMENDS TO THE BOARD WILL BE SUBJECT 

TO COMMENTS SO IF THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE BART WHO HAVE 

OBJECTIONS TO THAT THEY CAN COMMENT AT THE COMMENT PERIOD AND 

TRY TO GET SOMETHING CHANGED MORE TO THEIR LIKING SO THEY DON'T 

HAVE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM DIRECTLY.

SPEAKER: THIS IS BOB. ONE THING -- I'M A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED HERE. MOST 

SUBWAY CARS AND MOST RAIL CARS HAVE THE DOORS OPPOSITE EACH 

OTHER AND THAT WOULD BE DIRECT ACROSS BUT THERE ARE SOME OLDER 

CARS I REMEMBER AND I THINK THERE ARE NEW ONE AND THE DOORS ARE 

OFFSET. SO THERE WOULD BE, IT WOULDN'T BE POSSIBLE TO GO DIRECTLY 

ACROSS THE CAR. SO I WONDER HOW THIS WOULD AFFECT THAT

SPEAKER: DENNIS: WHEN WE SAID THE DOORS ARE OPPOSITE THERE HAS TO 

BE A CLEAR PATH. THE OTHER ISSUE THERE STILL NEEDS TO BE A CLEAR 

PATH FROM ONE TO THE OTHER BUT THEY WILL NEED TO BE ANGLED.

SPEAKER: THIS IS ROBERT CARSON. HOW MANY NEW DESIGNS USE AN 

OFFSET DOORS

SPEAKER: I THINK I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER WHICH ONE I JUST SAW THAT'S 

STILL IN THE DESIGN THEY WERE LOOKING AT THAT.

SPEAKER: OKAY. THIS IS BLAIR. I'M JUST LOOKING BACK AT 6 A AND IT 

DOESN'T QUITE DO THAT BUT -- I WILL PUT SOMETHING IN ON NUMBER 6 TO 

TRY TO CAPTURE THAT BUT ACTUALLY YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY DIMENSION 
THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A PATHWAY THAT'S LESS THAN 32.

SPEAKER: RIGHT.

SPEAKER: BLAIR: OKAY. LET ME -- YOU KNOW -- GOSH. I CAN'T IMAGINE WHY 

IN A VEHICLE THAT'S GOT A LOT OF TURNOVER WHY YOU WOULD BUILD IT 

WITH THE DOORS OFFSET. I'M SURE --

SPEAKER: TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE CAR -- GOING BOTH DIRECTIONS.

BLAIR: YEAH. ANYWAY -- LET ME LOOK AT THIS AND DIGEST AND I WILL SEE IF 

I CAN WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT DOORS THAT ARE OFFSET. BUT MY 

CONCERN IS IF YOU HAVE A CAR THAT SET UP WHERE THE DOORS ARE, IF 

THE ACCESSIBLE SPACE IS ACCESSIBLE TO THE DOORS ON BOTH SIDES OF 

THE CAR BUT THE DOORS THEMSELVES ARE NOT OPPOSITE OF ONE 

ANOTHER BUT THEY ARE DIAGONAL ON THE SPACE, YOU COULD HAVE KIND 

OF A FUSSY SITUATION THERE ARE COMING ON BOARD AND THEN 

MANEUVERING DOWN ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE DOOR OR, AND I MAKE IT 

ASSUMPTION VEHICLES SET THAT UP WAY WOULD ALWAYS HAVE A 

CONDITION WHERE YOU, YOU COULD BOARD ON ONE SIDE AND DETRAIN 

FROM THE OTHER. YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A SINGLE SIDE BOARDING AND 

DETRAINING CONDITIONS. OKAY. LET ME SEE IF I CAN PUT SOMETHING 

AROUND THAT.

SPEAKER: YOU WOULDN'T PUT A DOOR ON THE OTHER SIDE IF IT WASN'T 

USEFUL.

BLAIR: WELL YES. I WAS TRYING TO THINK HOW YOU MIGHT DO THAT. IF THE 

DOORWAYS ARE NOT DIRECT EOPPOSITE BUT IF YOU DRAW A RECTANGLE 

AND THAT'S THE ACCESSIBLE SEATING SPACE AND ONE DOOR IS ONE 

EXTREME AND DIAGONALLY ACROSS IT IS THE OTHER EXTREME YOU HAVE 

MANEUVER COMING ON AND GOING OFF THE OTHER SIDE WITHOUT GETTING 

TANGLED UP IN THERE. SO, I DON'T KNOW IN THAT CONDITION IS 32 IS -- LET 

ME WRITE SOMETHING UP AND -- I WILL PUSH IT BACK OUT BUT I WANT TO 

WRAP THIS THING UP.

ITEM 6 I GOT TO GO BACK THROUGH AND CLEAN THE OUT FROM ALL THE 

VARIOUS DIFFERENT COLORS AND NOTES THAT I'VE MADE AND I WILL WRITE 
SOMETHING UP ON THAT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT POPPED NOW THE 

LOOKING AT THE PRESENTATIONS, BOTH THE INFORMATION FROM LONG 

ISLAND AND THE INFORMATION KEN GATHERED WAS THAT IN NOTE 6 C 

WHERE IT TALKED ABOUT HAND HOLDS PROVIDED ADJACENT AND VERTICAL 

HAND HOLDS INTENDED AS BOARDING AIDS HAVING THOSE TERMINATE NO 

MORE THAN 34 INCHES FROM THE FLOOR. I THINK THAT'S A WINNER. I DON'T 

KNOW IF THERE'S ANY IF WE NEED TO GO ANY -- WITH THOSE KIND MUCH 

STATEMENTS IN AREAS CONSIDERED ACCESS PORTION OF THE VEHICLE. IT 

LOOKED LIKE SOME OF THE THESE AUTHORITIES HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB 

HAVING THE BARS FOLDED TO THE SEATS AND THAT SO YOU ARE NOT 

TAKING EXPANSION ALL THE THE WAY TO THE FLOOR BUT THEY SEEM TO BE 

DOING IT EVERYWHERE. SO I DON'T KNOW IF WE WANT TO -- I WAS ADDING A 

NOTE IN THERE ABOUT WHENEVER PRACTICAL OR NOT STRUCTURALLY AND 

FEASIBLE HAVING THE VERTICALS TERMINATE OVERLAP FOR THINGS LIKE 

THAT. SO --

SPEAKER: THE EQUIVALENT TO FACILITATION SECTION OF THE CODE.

BLAIR: ALL RIGHT. I DON'T WANT TO MUDDY THE WATERS. I WILL GO BACK 

AND CLEAN THIS OUT AND GET IT SO -- IF THERE'S NO MORE COMMENTARY 

ON THAT ITEM WE'LL MOVE ON.

SPEAKER: I HAVE A QUESTION ON 6 C IN THE VERTICAL HAND HOLD 

REQUIREMENTS NO LONGER THAN 34 INCHES. WHY IS THAT NECESSARY?

SPEAKER: OKAY. IS THIS FRANK? HERE WAS THE REASONING FOR IT AND 

LOOK AT YOUR 7 CARS AND EVEN YOUR M 3S, YOU ALREADY HAVE DONE IT. 

THE IDEA WAS THAT YOU MAY NEED THE HAND HOLDS BY THE DOOR TO HELP 

YOU BOARD BUT THEY MAY PROJECT INTO THE DOORWAY OF YOUR CAR. BUT 

THERE'S NO NEED FOR THEM TO GO BLOW 34 INCHES AND THE MAGIC OF 

THAT IF THEY PROJECT INTO THE DOORWAY THEY DON'T GET IN THE WAY OF 

SOMEONE COMING PAST THEM IN A WHEELCHAIR.

SPEAKER: YEAH. IF YOU LOOKED ON THE ONES ADJACENT THE DOOR. THERE 

ARE HAND HOLDS LOUDER DOWN THERE. THEY ARE NOT IN THE CLEAR PATH. 

I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY NEED TO TERMINATE 32 INCHES 

ABOVE THE FLOOR -- 34 INCHES.
BLAIR: BARE WITH ME JUST A MINUTE WHILE I GET THOSE BACK IN FRONT OF 

ME HERE.

SPEAKER: THIS IS ANDREA. SOMETIMES THOSE HANDS HOLDS WHICH ARE 

GOING TO BE LOOKING AT IN A FEW MINUTES ARE USED FROM BOARDING 

FROM THE RAIL LEVEL.

SPEAKER: THAT'S WHAT I WAS GETTING TO.

BLAIR: FRANK -- I'M LOOKING AT ON -- IS IT ON THE M 7S OR --

SPEAKER: IT IS BOTH. BOTH THE M 7'S AND C 3'S HAVE THAT VERTICAL HAND 

HOLD ADJACENT TO THE POST WHERE YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE GROUND 

FROM BOARDING AND EXTENDS JUST ABOUT DOWN TO THE FLOOR.

BLAIR: RIGHT ABOUT IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT EXTENDS INTO THE DOOR 

OPENING.

SPEAKER: NO IT DOESN'T. IT DOESN'T EXTENDS ALL THE WAY.

SPEAKER: THAT WAS THE IDEA. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU GUYS HAVE TUCKED 

THOSE AWAY AND YOU CAN STILL REACH THEM. IF THEY WERE NOT IN THE 

OBVIOUS DOOR OPENING PATH WHEN YOU COME INTO THE CAR, YOU ARE 

OKAY. AND I WILL CLEAN THAT UP IF YOU THINK IT NEEDS TO BE BETTER 

DEFINED BUT THE IDEA WAS BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT IT BEFORE, 

THERE'S SOME SITUATIONS WHERE LET'S SAY THE DOOR OPENS UP TO 50 

INCHES OR 60 INCHES WIDE. YOU MAY HAVE LOOKING PURELY FROM THE 

OUTSIDE OF THE CAR YOU MAY HAVE A VERTICAL PAN HOLD THAT ACTUALLY 

IS INSIDE OF THAT 60 INCH DIMENSION AND THE THINKING WAS THAT MAYBE -

- THAT MAYBE VERY PRACTICAL FOR PEOPLE BOARDING. AND IF YOU HAVE 

THAT, THOUGH, FOR BOARDING, THAT IT NEEDS TO TERMINATE BEFORE 34 

INCHES. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T BE FULLY THE WIDTH OF THE DOOR. I 

WILL TOUCH THAT THAT.
SPEAKER: I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. IF YOU HAVE -- WHAT 42 

INCH CLEAR OPENING IF YOU HAVE A 42 INCH CLEAR OPEN WHY DOES IT 

REALLY MATTER IF THERE IS A FLOOR TO CEILING POST SAY YOU HAVE A 60 

INCH DOOR OPENING AND WHY WOULD IT MATTER IF YOU HAD A VERTICAL 

HAND HOLD OUTSIDE OF THE 42 INCH AREA?

SPEAKER: IF THERE WAS A MODEST TEA PANEL?

SPEAKER: I'M NOT SAYING YOU ARE NECESSARILY GOING TO DO IT. I DON'T 

SEE A PROBLEM AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A 42 INCH CLEAR OPENING WHY 

DOES IT MATTER IF YOU HAVE 44 -- I'M NOT SAYING THERE MAYBE A USE FOR 

IT. TO REQUIRE IT NOT BE THERE IT SEEMS UNNECESSARY.

BLAIR: YEAH. I THINK -- IF YOU HAVE WHATEVER THE DOOR WIDTH IS TO THE 

FRACTURE YA'LL POST 50, 60 WHATEVER IT IS AND OFFHAND HOLD INSIDE 

THAT AND IT GOES ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR. YES WHEN YOU MEASURE 

BETWEEN THOSE YOU STILL DO HAVE A GOOD ACCOMMODATION.

BUT WHEN PEOPLE ARE -- THE THINKING AS I UNDERSTAND, WHEN PEOPLE 

ARE TRYING TO BOARD AND THEY'RE COMING ON 2 BY 2 OR 4 BY 4 

DEPENDING ON HOW THICK A HERD THEY ARE IN, IF YOU ARE COMING IN ON A 

WHEELCHAIR IS THAT BAR THAT'S THERE TO HELP PEOPLE BOARD THE TRAIN 

OR GET OFF, IF IT DOESN'T GO ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR THEN YOU JUST 

GOT THAT MUCH MORE WIDTH TO HELP PEOPLE COME ON AND OFF THE 

TRAIN. I SEE WHERE YOUR CONCERN IS.

BUT I THINK, TOO, WE HAVE SEEN GOOD EXAMPLES OF WHERE THAT'S BEEN 

MANAGED QUITE WELL. BUT THAT WAS THE DRIVER. WAS THAT YOU KNOW 

YOU MAXIMIZE THAT DOOR WIDTH FOR BOARDING AND THE LIKE.

SPEAKER: THIS JUST ACTUALLY BROUGHT UP A THING TO THE METRO CARS 

IN CHICAGO THE GALLERY CARS THEY ARE WIDE WITH A POLE IN THE 

CENTER. THE CARS ARE ACCESSIBLE BUT THERE IS A WIDE ENOUGH 

OPENING.

SPEAKER: THE DOORS IN CHICAGO ARE 79 INCHES WIDE.

SPEAKER: RIGHT THOSE ARE HUGE OPENINGS.
SPEAKER: AND WE HAVE POLES THAT RUN DOWN THE CENTER OF THAT THAT 

OPEN BUT WE -- WE ONLY GOT ONE LINE IN CHICAGO THAT IS LEVEL 

BOARDING. THERE IS NO LEVEL BOARDING ON 90 PERCENT OF OUR LINES.

BLAIR: HOW DO YOU MANAGE WHEELCHAIR ON THE STEP UP SITUATION?

SPEAKER: EACH CAR'S EQUIPPED WITH ADA CAR WAS LIFTS THAT COME OUT 

AND SIT FLUSH TO THE GROUND WITH LIFT THAT OPENS UP TO MAKE SURE 

THEY ARE IN THEIR SECURE AND RAISE THEM UP LEVEL INTO THE CAR AND 

ALLOW THEM ACCESS INTO THE CAR BODY ITSELF.

BLAIR: OKAY. WOULD THAT DOORWAY BE THE SAME IN THE OTHER 

POSITIONS OR IS IT DIFFERENT?

SPEAKER: THE POLE IS OFFSET. ONE SIDE IS WIDER THAN THE OTHER.

SPEAKER: RIGHT. FOR THE ADA WHATEVER SIDE THE LIFT IS ON. SO IF THE 

LIFT IS ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE CAR THAT'S SIDE IS WIDER TO ALLOW

ACCESS TO THAT VEHICLE. CAN YOU ASK THAT QUESTION ONE MORE TIME 

PLEASE BLAIR.

BLAIR: YEAH. IF THE PHYSICAL DOORWAY IN THE CAR IS THE SAME 

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS ACCESSIBLE DOOR WE OR NOT WHAT 

CHANGES IS THE POSITION OF THE STANSIONS FOR THE POLES IN THAT 

AREA.

SPEAKER: YEAH.

BLAIR: OKAY. HUM -- WELL --

SPEAKER: THE 79 INCH DOORWAY?

SPEAKER: RIGHT.
SPEAKER: IN MOST CARS THE POLE IS LIKE 40 INCHES RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE. 

ON THE CAR WHERE THE LIFT IS THE POLE IS OFFSET SO ONE SIDE IS LIKE 48 

INCHES --

SPEAKER: CORRECT -- RIGHT. YEAP.

BLAIR: ALL RIGHT.

SPEAKER: DO HAVE PHOTOS OF THAT, TOO.

BLAIR: YOU GET AROUND DON'T YOU.

SPEAKER: I TRY.

SPEAKER: HE DOES. I KNOW YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT THE LAST THING 

BLAIR AND WE KEEP GOING BUT THE, I THINK THE POINT DENNIS MADE 

MAYBE MARSHA -- I'M NOT SURE IT GOT PUT IN THE WRITE UP I DON'T KNOW 

MAYBE THIS IS REDUNDANT BUT THE THING ABOUT HAVING LIKE IT IS OKAY 

TO HAVE A POLE A WALL MOUNTED POLE. YOU CAN REACH IN AS YOU ARE 

COMING INTO THE CAR. DENNIS SAID THIS EARLIER. THIS IS JUST AN 

EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING YOU CAN DO IN LIEU OF BLOCK ACCESS WITH 

POLES AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS IN WRITE UP OR IF IT SHOULD BE.

SPEAKER: I THINK WHAT FRANK WAS SAYING AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING 

ARE IN LINE. IF YOU -- UNDERSTANDING WHAT METRO HAS, THEY HAVE A 

HUGE WIDE 79 INCH DOOR. YOU WOULD HAVE TO SAY WHAT DIFFERENCE 

WOULD IT MAKE IF THERE WAS A YOU KNOW A GRAB IRON FOR BOARD THAT'S 

WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR AND USED ALSO FOR PEOPLE COMES UP 

FROM THE GROUND FROM A STEP SITUATION OR WHATEVER. I PUT THAT IN 

THERE ABOUT THE -- THE VERTICAL BAR NOT COMING ANY CLOSER AT THE 

DOORWAY TO THE FLOOR THAN 34 INCHES WAS TO MAXIMIZE THE FULL 

WIDTH OF THE DOORWAY COMING ON FOR SOMEONE IN A WHEELCHAIR.

ON A UNDERSTAND WHAT FRANK'S SAYING AND MAYBE YOU NEED TO HAVE 

CAVEATS BASED ON THE OVER ALL WIDTHTH DOOR BUT IT SEEMS LIKE 

BASED ON WHAT I HAD SEEN IN THE LONG ISLAND PHOTOGRAPHS AND THE 

INFORMATION KEN HAD THAT SEEMS TO BE A WORKABLE SITUATION 
GENERALLY AND ALREADY IN USE IN SOME PLACES.

SO, LET ME --

SPEAKER: WRITING IT UP, IT JUST HAS TO HAVE X CLEAR WIDTH OVER THE 

POLES AND THE POLES WOULD NOT BE COUNTED IN THE WIDTH.

BLAIR: YEAH. PART OF THE PROBLEM WAS THAT WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE 

THAT IF YOU HAD A SITUATION WHERE YOU HAD A CAR THAT DIDN'T HAVE 

HUGE WIDE DOORS THAT YOU WOULDN'T PRECLUDE HAVING VERTICAL HAND 

HOLDS BECAUSE THEY SORT OF STUCK INTO THE CLEAR PATH.

MAYBE IT WOULD MAKE SENSE IF I WROTE THAT SO THAT IT ADDRESSED IT 

SO IT HAS THAT INCLUSION AND WE SHOULD TERMINATE BEFORE OR AT 34 

INCHES ABOVE THE FLOOR AND FOR THE REALLY HUGE DOORS IT SORT OF --

IT IS LESS OF AN ISSUE BECAUSE YOU COULD DRIVE A TRUCK THROUGH THE 

DOORWAY

SPEAKER: I DON'T SEE IT MAKES MUCH DIFFERENCE IF YOU CLAIM 44 INCH 

CLEAR AND YOU DON'T HAVE IT THEY RECESS THE DOOR HANDLES OR 

WHATEVER. LEAVE IT UP TO THE BUILDER.

BLAIR. WHAT YOU ARE SEEING THERE SEEMS TO BE RECESSION OR 

TERMINATING THEM. FRANK'S QUESTION WAS LOGICAL BUT WE CAN'T 

PREDICT IF THERE WAS A SITUATION WHERE IT MAKES SENSE FOR THE BAR 

TO GO ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR. WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY A LEGITIMATE 

QUESTION.

ALL RIGHT. WELL -- LET ME ASK THE QUESTION OF THE ACCESS BOARD. ARE 

WE ABLE TO WRITE IN THINGS THAT ARE DESIGNED RECOMMENDATIONS? SO 

FOR EXAMPLE WHENEVER PRACTICAL OR NOT STRUCTURALLY PROHIBITIVE 

THAT THINGS ARE DONE A CERTAIN WAY?

SPEAKER: THIS IS MARSHA. THERE'S NO REASON YOU CAN'T INCLUDE THOSE 

SUGGESTIONS.

BLAIR: I WILL DOCTOR THAT. SO THAT IT IS WRITTEN UP THAT WAY. IT COULD 

BE PERFECTLY LOGICAL SITUATION AND SOME OF THESE REALLY WIDE 

DOORS WHY I WANT THE POST TO GO ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR AND 

WOULD IT HAVE NO PROHIBITION AS FAR AS GETTING ON THE CAR. BUT FROM 

A DESIGN STANDPOINT, YOU KNOW, THE MORE YOU CAN A VOID THE BETTER 
OFF YOU ARE.

SPEAKER: GENERALLY SPEAKING --

SPEAKER: ONE LAST THING TO CLEAN AROUND WITH THE MOP.

SPEAKER: I'M JUST SAYING FROM YOU KNOW A FUNCTIONAL STANDPOINT 

THE IMPORTANT THING IS THE 44 INCHES. AS LONG AS YOU ACHIEVE THAT I 

DON'T SEE WHERE YOU HAVE TO POE HIB IT THEM FROM GOING THE FLOOR. 

THERE MAYBE THINGS WE'RE OVER LOOK THAT'S WOULD SUGGEST IT IS A 

GOOD IDEA SO WHY POE HINT SOMETHING THAT'S NECESSARY.

SPEAKER: BLAIR: IF I TALK THAT TO THE 44 INCH WIDTH, COULD YOU HAVE 

DOOR OPENING CONDITION THAT'S ARE NARROWER THAN THE 44 INCHES 

BUT IF I TIE THAT TO THE ONCE YOU ARE INSIDE THE DOOR ONCE YOU BREAK 

THE PLANE OF THE DOOR THE 44 INCHES BEGINS AND THAT INCLUDE THE 

HAND RAILS, THAT WOULD NOT PRECLUDE SOMEONE FROM HAVING A, -- OF 

IMPACTING OR ENCROACHING ON THE 44 INCHES ABOVE THE 34 INCHES AND 

STILL HAVE THEIR HAND HOLDS.

SPEAKER: THAT'S EXACTLY IT. THAT'S WHAT I WAS GETTING AT THANK YOU.

BLAIR: ALL RIGHT. I WILL WRITE THAT IN THERE. SO THAT IT MAKES SENSE. 

OKAY.

SPEAKER: THIS IS AT THE SIDE OF THE DOOR. NOT IN THE MIDDLE.

BLAIR: YES MARILYN. SAY YOU HAD FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, A 

DOORWAY THAT WAS AT THE LEGAL MINIMUM, AND YOU COME ON BOARD 

AND THAT'S, THAT DOORWAY IS LESS THAN 44 INCHES BUT WE'RE SAYING WE 

DON'T WANT ANY OBSTRUCTIONS FROM THAT DOOR PLANE ALL THE WAY TO 

THE OTHER DOOR PLANE. WE DON'T WANT ANYTHING INSIDE 44 INCHES BUT 

THERE MAYBE A NEED FOR A HAND HOLD JUST INSIDE THE DOOR. WELL 

OKAY. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR HAND HOLD BUT IT CAN'T COME ANY CLOSER 

THAN 34 INCHES FROM THE FLOOR RIGHT BY THE DOOR. SO YOU ARE NOT 

INHIBITING YOUR MOVEMENT BY PUTTING SOMETHING THAT'S PROJECTING 
INTO THE CLEAR SPACE. BUT YEAH --

SPEAKER: BLAIR: THIS IS AN AMTRAK THINGS L. YOU WILL HAVE GRAB RAILS 

ON THE UNDERSIDE OF THE TRAPS YOU HAVE THE CLEAR OPENING. YOU 

OPEN THE TRAP YOU DON'T HAVE THE CLEAR OPENING BECAUSE THE HAND 

RAILS STICK INTO IT.

BLAIR: BUT THAT IS LESS AN ISSUE YOU ARE NOT GOING THROUGH THAT 

SPACE ON A WHEELCHAIR, EITHER. I THINK I CAN WRITE THIS UP SO IT CAN 

SOLVE THE PROBLEM AND THE CONCERNS AND STILL KEEP US WITH THE 

IDEA OF HAVING THAT 44 INCH CLEAR SPACE ACROSS THE VEHICLE. SO --

OKAY.

ALL RIGHT.

SO THAT LEAVES US AT -- I DID MAKE -- I ADDED HISTORICAL OR HERITAGE 

VEHICLES TO NOTE NUMBER 9 THAT TOOK AWAY THE REPLICA CONCEPT.

SPEAKER: THAT WORKS MUCH BETTER.

BLAIR: AND I HAVE A NOTE IN THERE THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS A QUESTION 

ABOUT CAPACITY, AND SO I ADDED A NOTE THAT SAYS INDUSTRY COMMENT 

ARE QUESTIONED TO GENERATE A VALID CAPACITY THIS SHOULD INCLUDE 

RECOMMENDATION FOX LOADING SUCH AS NORMAL CRUSH LOADING ETC.. 

WE WERE TRYING TO COME UP WITH A QUALIFIER FOR THOSE CARS THOSE 

REPLICA AND REHABILITATION CAR OR HERITAGE CARS SO IF THAT'S OKAY 

WE'LL LEAVE THAT THE WAY IT IS.

ALSO IN NOTE 20, I ADDED A NOTE THAT I PUT IN THE OVERLAP NUMBERS FOR 

SERVICE ANIMAL SPACE. AND I ADDED A NOTE THAT THIS SHOULD BE 

REVIEWED PHYSICALLY TO MAKE SURE THE MEASUREMENTS ARE 

APPROPRIATE. TO MAKE SURE THE SPACE IS COMFORTABLE AND SAVE FOR 

THE ANIMAL AND PASSENGER LIKE WISE IF IS SPACE IS OVER SIZE OVERLAP 

MIGHT BE INCREASED.

SO, EVERYONE OKAY WITH THAT? THAT CONCEPT?

SPEAKER: SOUNDS GOOD TO ME.

SPEAKER: SERVICE HORSES.
SPEAKER: SERVICE HORSES? YEAH -- THEY DON'T -- THEY DON'T CRUNCH UP 

AS NICELY AS DOGS.

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S -- EVERYTHING THAT I'VE GOT FROM THE MATRIX 

AND THE NOTES GO WITH IT. ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING THEY WANT TO ADD 

OR DISCUSSION. WE HAVE A LITTLE MORE -- MAYBE WE'VE GOT 16 MINUTES, 

18 MINUTERS

SPEAKER: ON THE MATRIX OR EVERYTHING?

SPEAKER: BLAIR: EITHER OR.

SPEAKER: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GOT MY E FLAIL WHEN I WAS IN HOUSTON. I 

SPOKE TO REPRESENTS ABOUT ACCESSING TO THE SECOND LEVEL AND CAS 

DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE THERE. ONE BACKED OFF AND SEEMS LIKE THEIR 

ANNOUNCEMENT YESTERDAY THEY WERE NOT GOING TO BUILD ON AMTRAK 

ANYMORE. AT LEAST THE HIGH SPEED. BOMBARDIA SAID DIFFERENTS 

ADVANCE NOTICE. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO COME OUT IN 2017 AND COMPLY BY 

20 20 THAT WAS GREAT. THATS FROM BOPBARDIA.

ALSO SEE MANS HAD THEIR HIGH SPEED CAR MOCK UP THERE. THEY HAD 

REALLY NICE BETWEEN SEAT TABLES. AND THE ENGINEER WAS THERE. I SAID 

DO YOU THINK YOU COULD DO THOSE WITHOUT THE LEGS AND STILL 

COMPLY. HE THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND HE SAID SURE. I THINK WE CAN DO IT. 

BECAUSE THOSE WERE TWO THINGS I WANTED TO BRING UP BECAUSE WE 

DISCUSSED THEM BEFORE

SPEAKER: YOU MUST HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THE SALESMAN

SPEAKER: THE WAY HE ROLLED HIS EYES BACK IN HIS HAND I THINK HE WAS 

GETTING THE PLANS IN HIS MIND

SPEAKER: THE MOST DANGEROUS CREATURE IS THE SALES ENGINEER.

SPEAKER: STAY AWAY FROM THOSE GUYS. THEY PROMISE YOU EVERYTHING 

AND PRODUCE NOTHING.
BLAIR: THAT'S WHAT THEY MAKE CHANGE ORDERED AND NONCOMPLIANCE. 

OKAY. BACK TO THE -- BOB THANKS FOR THAT. THAT GIVES US SOME HOPE.

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS: ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK 

AT BOB IS THE CLEARANCE UNDER THE SEATS. WHAT WAS THE ANSWER ON 

THAT?

SPEAKER: SHOOT. I HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES. I DID MEASURE A FEW OF 

THEM. I CAN'T REMEMBER OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. THEY --

SPEAKER: WE SET THE VERTICAL THING AT 12 INCHES AND THE QUESTION 

WAS YOU KNOW, -- SEATS DO THAT AS OPPOSED TO 11.

SPEAKER: THEY WERE ALL OVER 12 INCHES.

SPEAKER: OKAY.

SPEAKER: I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING ANY UNDERSTAND 12. MOST OF THEM 

WERE UP 20, 24 OR, NOT 24 -- BUT THEY ARE MAKING THEM THINNER THESE 

DAYS.

SPEAKER: THIS IS THE CLEARANCE UNDERNEATH.

SPEAKER: RIGHT F. THEY MAKE THE CUSHION THINNER THEY STILL HAVE THE 

TOP OF THE SEAT AT THE SAME PLACE.

SPEAKER: OKAY.

SPEAKER: AND THEY ARE ALMOST ALL WALL MOUNTED NOW.

SPEAKER: THE ONLY PROBLEM IF YOU ARE ON A TRANSIT SYSTEM WHERE 

YOUR TRIP TIME IS RELATIVELY SHORT, UNDER AN HOUR KIND OF THING, YOU 

CAN GET BY WITH A LOT LESS COMFORTABLE SEATS. OUT ON THE ROAD FOR 
THREE DAYS THAT CUSHION COULD BECOME A BIGGER ISSUE.

SPEAKER: THEY DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A DISPLAY THERE THIS YEAR.

SPEAKER: THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE LOOKING FOR YOU. DID THEY EVER 

FIND YOU?

BLAIR: I WASN'T THERE.

SPEAKER: PEOPLE SAID HAVE YOU SEEN THEM.

SPEAKER: AS LONG AS THEY DIDN'T COUPLE THAT WITH ANY EXPLETIVES 

YOU ARE OKAY.

SPEAKER: NO COMMENT.

SPEAKER: ANDREA. I HEARD THE 22 INCHES UNDER THE SEAT

SPEAKER: NO THAT WAS THE TOP OF THE SEAT. I DIDN'T SEE ANY OF THEM 

WITH LESS THAN 12 INCHES UNDER THE SEAT.

SPEAKER: IF THERE WAS 20 INCHES THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF DANGLING 

LEGS.

OKAY. ANY OTHER THOUGHTS OR COMMENTS? BEFORE WE MOVE ON?

SPEAKER: THIS IS FRANK. I HAD A QUESTION ON NOTE 5. QUANTITY OF 

SEATING BEING EASY REMOVABLE. THE QUESTION IS: WHERE ARE YOU 

GOING TO PUT THEM? YOU HAVE THIS LIFTED NO COMMUTER RAIL TO, , DON'T 

YOU? AM I READING THE CHART CORRECTLY. IS THAT THE 

RECOMMENDATION OR IS IT THE RECOMMENDATION FOR THE COMMUTER 

RAIL?
BLAIR: LET'S SEE -- YOU KNOW WHAT? I THINK I THINK NOTE 5 CREPT BACK UP 

INTO COMMUTER. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN INTERCITY AND HIGH SPEED.

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS. THE ISSUE WAS IF YOU HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE 

IN CHAIRS LIKE WE DID WHEN WE WENT ON OUR E CURINGS UP TO 

PENNSYLVANIA AND YOU WANTED TO HAVE MORE THAN THE TWO SPACES 

YOU COULD HAVE A PARTY AREA, YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO REMOVE THE 

SEATS IT WOULD BE NICE TO REMOVE THE SEATS. THE ISSUE WOULD HAVE 

BEEN SIMILAR TO WHAT AMTRAK ALREADY DOES WITH SPECIAL PARTIES AND 

WHATEVER. THERE WOULD BE A COST THAT YOU COULD PAY ABOVE AND 

BEYOND THE FARE AND THAT WOULD INVOLVE WHAT IT TAKES TO GET YOU 

THERE SO STAFF TIME AND WHATEVER TO REMOVE THE SEATS AND 

PRESUMABLY IF THE SEATING WERE BEING LEFT AT THE STATION OF ORIGIN 

THERE WOULD BE SOME STORAGE QUESTIONS SO ALL OF THESE THINGS 

WOULD BE HANDLED WITH WHATEVER THE FEE WAS CHARGED FOR THAT 

SERVICE. IF YOU WERE GOING TO TAKE THE GROUP TO ONE PLACE AND THEY 

WEREN'T COMING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL DESTINATION YOU MIGHT PUT THE 

SEATS ON THE TRAIN IN THE BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT OR MAKE 

ARRANGEMENT IN ADVANCE TO HAVE SOME EXTRA SEATS AT THE 

DESTINATION. ALL OF THAT IS OPERATIONAL STUFF THAT THEY WORK OUT.

SPEAKER: YOU PUT IN A SEARCH OF THE SEAT TIE DOWN TRACKS.

SPEAKER: THERE US A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN THE NOTES AND MATRIX. 5 

AND 6 LOOK AT THE COLUMN NEXT TO IT THERE IS A REFERENCE TO NOTE 6 

ABOUT MANEUVERING AND NOTE 6 OBVIOUSLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH

THAT. SO I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED SOMEWHERE IN THERE, THERE WAS AN 

ADDITION OR DELETION THAT SCRAMBLED MY NOTES ON THE REFERENCE. 5 

B AND C -- THERE IS NO B AND C. ON THERE. SO I THINK THERE'S -- LET ME GO 

BACK AND DRESS THOSE UP.

SPEAKER: YEAH YOU WANT TO OFF ONE NUMBER OR SOMETHING.

SPEAKER: NOW THIS IS A VERY GOOD CHART AND YOU GET ONE LITTLE BOOBOO. JUST TO EXPRESS ANOTHER VIEW ON THIS. WE WERE MAINLY THINKING 

OF AMTRAK ONLY BECAUSE -- THERE WAS THE WELL MEANING BUT -- YOU 

KNOW, LIMITED IN VISION IN THE STATUTE ABOUT GROUPS. WE WERE MORE 
CONCERNING DISPERSION THAT GROUPS RIDING TOGETHER. BECAUSE OF 

THAT, YES I THINK IT IS A GOOD NOTE THAT YOU HAVE. I'M NOT SURE TO 

WHAT EXTENT IT APPLIES TO OTHER KIND OF RAIL BESIDES AMTRAK. DENNIS 

AND OTHERS CAN COMMENT ON THAT. I THINK THAT THERE ARE -- I MEAN 

THESE ARE NOT SPELLED OUT ANYWHERE AND I ALSO WANT TO POINT OUT I 

KNOW THIS IS NOT AN EXPORT ISSUE BUT I HAVE BEEN TRAINING TO KEEP A 

LIST OF THINGS FOR THE DOJ AND I'M HOPING OR OWE EXCUSE ME DOT IN 

THIS CASE. AND I'M HOPING -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD BE DEFINED BY A 

DOLLAR LIMIT OR WHAT BUT THERE SHOULD BE REASONABLE LIMITS ON THE 

AMOUNT THAT'S CHARGED BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE GETS TO BRING 

GROUPS ONTO THE TRAIN. IF WE CAN GET ENOUGH TICKETS THEY CAN 

BRING ALL THE PEOPLE THEY WANT AND WHY SHOULD IT BE THE PEOPLE 

WITH DISABILITIES CAN'T DO THAT. AND IF THERE'S A LEGITIMATE YOU KNOW 

CHALLENGE TO REMOVE SEATS WELL IT IS OKAY BUT I DON'T THINK IT 

SHOULD BE HUGE -- WE SHOULD FIND A WAY TO. ME THAT IS CIVIL RIGHTS 

ISSUE.

SPEAKER: MARILYN THIS IS MARSHA. YOU REMEMBER THE TRAIN THAT WE

ALL ROAD ONTO GO TO PHILADELPHIA WHERE THEY REMOVED BUNCH OF 

SEATS?

SPEAKER: RIGHT.

SPEAKER: IT STRIKES ME THAT IS WHAT THE DOJ REGS WOULD CALL A 

POLICY PRACTICE OR PROCEDURE DOES THIS DISCUSSION REALLY FALL 

INTO AN OPERATIONAL DISCUSSION? MORE SO THAT A DESIGN DISCUSSION?

SPEAKER: IT IS OPERATIONAL AND THAT'S WHY I WAS SAYING I KNOW IT IS 

NOT A --

SPEAKER: YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO REMOVE THE SEATS

SPEAKER: I'M SORRY CAN ONLY HEAR ONE PERSON AT A TIME. MARILYN?

SPEAKER: I AGREE THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR THE BOARD BUT I'M HOPING 

WITH THE FEDERAL AGENCY YOU KNOW OFTEN TO THE FUTURE DOES ADOPT 
THIS THERE WILL BE LIMITS -- AGAIN I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU ESTABLISH 

THOSE LIMITS, TO DICTATE A DOLLAR AMOUNT ISN'T PRACTICAL BUT

SOMEHOW THERE IS REASONABLE LIMITS ON WHAT CAN BE CHARGED. THE 

DISABILITY COMMUNITY FOUND THEY WANT TO TRAVEL WITH THREE OR 

FOUR PEOPLE AND YOU ARE OFTEN SMALLER ORGANIZATIONS SMALL 

NONPROFITS CHARGED TWO THREE FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS JUST TO RIDE 

TOGETHER.

SPEAKER: THAT SOUNDS LIKE IT DOES GO TO THE SURCHARGES PORTION OF 

THE REGULATIONS THAT WOULD ADDRESS THIS IN THE CASE WHERE A 

MODIFICATION IS MADE TO A PROCEDURE.

SPEAKER: THAT'S A GOOD POINT. AND THE DOJ RULE HAS BOTH THE 

SURCHARGE HAS BEEN AND THE MODIFICATION OF POLICIES PRACTICES AND 

PROCEDURES. THE DOT RULE DOES HAVE THE SURCHARGES AND IS IN THE 

PROCESS IT APPEARS, OF ADDING THE REQUIREMENT TO MODIFY POLICIES 

PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES SO HOPEFULLY BY THE TIME THIS RULE 

ROLES AROUND WE'LL HAVE BOTH AND I THINK YOU ARE POINTING OUT THAT 

IT FITS IN WITH THE PROTECTION ALREADY IN THE ADA IS AN EXCELLENT 

POINT.

SPEAKER: THERE IS NO REASON YOU CAN'T IN YOUR REPORT, TIME 

PERMITTION, LIFT CONCERN THAT'S ARE OUTSIDE OUR PURVIEW BUT THAT 

SHOULDN'T YOUR PRIMARY PURPOSE.

BLAIR: I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT IT BE INCLUDED ON THE PHYSICAL SIDE 

OF THINGS. FOR EXAMPLE AND I WILL BE QUICK ABOUT THIS WE GOT FOUR 

MINUTES LEFT AND WE'RE OFF. AT ONE TIME IT WAS COMMON TO BUY CARS 

WHERE THE SEATS WERE PHYSICALLY BOLTED ON THE FRAME OF THE CAR 

AND THERE WERE OPTIONS THROUGHOUT YOU USE A SEAT TRACK OR 

WHATEVER MA MAKES IT CONDUCIVE TO TAKING SEATS IN AND OUT FAIRLY 

QUICKLY. THERE IS A BENEFIT SO THAT IF A SEAT NEEDS TO BE REPAIRED 

YOU CAN TAKE IT OUT SO IT GETTING BACK TO THE WIN/WINS BUT WE

THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO PUT THAT IN THERE SO IT IS PART OF THE 

THOUGHT PROCESS AND DESIGN PROCESS THAT DOESN'T GET OVER 

LOOKED AND THAT MAKES THE DOLLARS AND CENTS ISSUES A LOT EASY TO 

MANAGER IF YOU ESTABLISHED THE PHYSICAL ABILITY TO MAKE THOSE 

CHANGES WITHOUT THEM BEING DIFFICULT. SO -- IT HELPS -- IT HELPS ON 
BOTH SIDES. IF YOU ARE TAKE AWAY THE EXCUSES IT IS NOT SUCH A BIG 

THING TO DO IT AND IT IS EASY TO DO, YOU KNOW, THE CLASSIC RAILROAD 

FOLKS WILL DO IT AND NOT COMPLAIN SO MUCH.

OKAY. GOING FORWARD. WE HAVE A CHALLENGE TO GET EVERYTHING THAT 

WE DISCUSSED THAT'S BEEN A PART OF THE MATRIX AND NOTES WRITTEN UP 

SO IT IS PRESENTABLE AS A REPORT. I'M GOING TO ASK -- I KNOW I GOT TO 

GO BACK AND REVISIT THE VERTICAL REPORT OR PROPOSE AL AND THOOCH 

UP BASED ON EVERYONE'S COMMENTS FROM BEFORE.

THE DATA IN THE MATRIX AND REPORT NEED PUT IN AS WELL. I HAVE CLEAN 

UP TO DO BEFORE THAT CAN HAPPEN BUT ANY VOLUNTEERS WHO WOULD 

LIKE TO TAKE THE CHALLENGE OF DRAFTING THE REPORT?

I GUESS THAT MEANS THE FIRST DRAFT WILL BE DONE BY BLAIR. AND WE 

WILL GO FROM THERE. BUT --

SPEAKER: ALL OF US --

SPEAKER: I WILL GIVE A HAND IF I CAN.

BLAIR: WELL OKAY. AND I KNOW THE CHAIRS HAVE TO GET TOGETHER AND 

WORK THROUGH SOME OF THESE THINGS AS WELL. BUT IF FOLKS COULD 

THINK ABOUT THOSE THINGS I'M MORE THAN HAPPY -- THERE US A DEGREE 

OF LOGIC IN ME TAKING WHAT IS THERE AND WRAPPING IT INTO A REPORT 

SINCE I HAVE MY HEAD AROUND IT PRETTY WELL BUT I WILL NEED YOUR 

COMMENTARY AND GUIDANCE. ANYONE HAVE SAGE ADVICE OR COMMENTS? 

YOU HAVE A MINUTE, I THINK.

SPEAKER: I KNOW THAT BLAIR WORKED WELL HARD BECAUSE HE WAS 

SENDING SOME OF THIS AGENDA STUFF AT 2 IN THE MORNING SO I 

ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO HELP OUT.

BLAIR: THING DO YOU AT THAT HOUR TENDING TO A LITTLE SQUARELY

SPEAKER: YOU PRETTY MUCH GOT A FIRST DRAFT LARGELY. THE REVIEW

PART IS EASIER I THINK YOU WILL HAVE PLENTY OF REVIEWERS MAYBE MORE 

THAN YOU ARE HAPPY TO HAVE.
BLAIR: OBVIOUSLY THE MATRIX HAS THINGS THAT ARE NOT RELEVANT TO 

THE SCOPING. IT JUST HELPED US SEE THINGS BUT I WILL GO IN AND STRIP 

OUT THE ELEMENTS THAT ESTABLISH THE SCOPE AND THEN BACK FILL WITH

PRIMARILY WITH WHAT'S IN THE NOTES. TO ESTABLISH THE REPORT. THAT'S 

MY THINKING THERE.

SPEAKER: CAN THAT MATRIX BE PUT OUT?

SPEAKER: BLAIR: I THINK IT IS FROM WHAT WE GET TO THE ACCESS BOARD IT 

CAN BE VALUABLE TO HELP THEM AS A TOUCH STONE BUT THAT'S -- I DON'T 

KNOW SOMEONE FROM THE BOARD WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION 

FOR THE RULE MAKING SIDE.

SPEAKER: THE RULE HAS TO BE WRITTEN IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER 

FORMAT SO THAT'S GOT SOME PARTICULARS BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY 

ABOUT THAT AS LONG AS WE GIVE ALL THE INFORMATION TO THE BOARD 

THEY CAN USE TO PUT TOGETHER THAT ACTUAL REGULATORY DOCUMENT.

BLAIR: I WILL ASK OF THE BOARD AGAIN FROM AN EASE OF DEALING WITH IT 

WHAT IS GOING TO BE EASIER FOR YOU TO WADE THROUGH

SPEAKER: MELISSA. I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO GET TOGETHER 

TO DISCUSS

SPEAKER: NOT NECESSARILY. THE BOTTOM LINE IS CLARITY. OKAY. IF YOU 

PUT A LOT OF WORDS AROUND IT JUST TO, JUST FOR FORMAT'S SAKE DON'T 

DO THAT. WHAT IS ESSENTIAL IF YOUR WRITING STYLE MAKES BULLETS 

MORE COMFORTABLE FOR YOU TO USE, USE BULLETS. AND PLEASE DON'T 

KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF TO TRY TO WRITE IN A REGULATOR FORMAT. I 

DON'T KNOW AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE YET THAT'S DONE IT WELL. WE DON'T 

WANT YOU TO SPEND YOUR TIME DOING SOMETHING WE'RE GOING TO BE 

PUTTING -- USING A DIFFERENT -- SAYING IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

BLAIR: WHAT IS THE TERM DENNIS IS USED?

SPEAKER: AT THE BOARD WE TRY VERY HARD TO AVOID REGUBABBLE. SO 

OURS ARE WRITTEN LIKE YOU SEE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR BUT IF YOU TRY 
TO MAKE IT READ MORE LIKE A NOVEL THERE IS MORE POTENTIAL FOR 

CONFUSION.

BLAIR: MY PUSH IS TO MAKE SURE I DON'T MISS ANYTHING AND NOT OVER 

BURDEN IT WITH EX STRAIN JUST DISCRIMINATION.

SPEAKER: PART OUR JOB IS GOING TO BE AS YOU WRITE THIS AS YOU START 

DOING DRAFTS WE'LL BE REVIEWING IT AND SAYING TO YOU WE'RE NOT 

CLEAR WHAT YOU MEAN HERE.

BLAIR: OKAY.

SPEAKER: AND WE'LL BE COMING BACK TO YOU WITH QUESTIONS BEFORE WE 

CLOSE THE BOOKS ON THIS WE'RE NOT GOING TO SIT BACK AND HAVE YOU 

PRESENT SOMETHING AND LATER SAY THEY DIDN'T WRITE IN IT A WAY WE

CAN UNDERSTAND.

BLAIR: WE'RE OFFICIALLY OVER OUR TIME LIMIT. FORTUNATE.

SPEAKER: I WISH EVERY A HAPPY HOLIDAY AND ALL OF THAT STUFF.

SPEAKER: LIKE WISE. THAT SO I GUESS WE'LL SEE EVERYONE ON THE 15TH 

OF JANUARY. ALL RIGHT. THAT I EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP AND YOUR 

DILIGENCE AND ATTENTION TO ALL OF THESE THINGS IT IS AWESOME.