**Note: The output shown below is from the Communication A ccess** 

**Realtime Translation (CA RT) system used in the On**  **- Board**  **Circulation and Seating Subcommittee meeting # 11**  **and is generally unedited. The CA**  **RT sy stem w**  **as used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was**  **streamed in real -** **time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.**  **UNITED STA TES**  **AC CESS BOA**  **RD RA**  **IL VEHICLES A CCESS A**  **DVISORY COMMITTEE ON**  **- BO**  **ARD CIRCULA TION A**  **ND SEA TING SUBCOMMITTEE**  **M EE**  **T IN**  **G # 11**  **TELECONFERENCE DECEMBER 11, 2014**  **CA RT Operator: E A**  **rcher** PAUL BEATTY. THANK YOU ROSE BUNALES, WE LCOME ON THE ELEVENTH MEETING OF THE ON BOARD CIRCULATION SEATING. AS ANYONE MAY PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSIONS , NO TIME FOR PUBLIC COMMENT HAS BEEN SCHEDULED DURING THIS TWO HOUR CALL. THE CART SYSTEM'S CHAT BOX IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR SUBCOMMITTEE PARTICIPATES

. IF YOU DESIRE T O MAKE A STATEMENT PLEASE USE E SERBINGS: RVAAC@ACCESS - .GOV TO COMMUNICATE W ITH ME AND I W ILL BRING TO IT THE CHAIR'S ATTENTION. WH EN SPEAKING REMEMBER TO GIVE YOUR NAME. YOUR NEXT MEETING SECONDED FOR JANUARY 15 OF NEXT YEAR. AND ONE OTHER THING -- TOOK CARE OF THAT OFF THE LIST. ALL RIGHT. I WI LL TURN THE CALL OVER TO BLAIR SLAUGHTER. GO AHEAD, . BLAIR SLAUGHTER . THANK YOU. I FIRST HAVE TO TAKE THE FOLKS AT THE ACCESS BOARD FOR GETTING MY INFORMATION POSTED DESPITE THE FACT I WA S TARDY GETTING IT TO THEM. SO THEY HAVE SUPER PERSON STATUS IN MY BOOK TODAY. SO ANY WAY ALL THAT SAID. PAUL TOOK CARE OF THE SECOND PART OF THE AGENDA BUT IF W E COULD APPROVE THE AGENDA, IF YOU NEED TO ADD SOMETHING LET'S GO AHEAD AND ADD IT. AND IF THERE'S NO COMMENTS I W ILL TAKE IT AS APPROVED. IS THAT CONSENSUS BY SILENCE? OKAY.SPEAKER: PROBABLY SO.

BLAIR: PROBABLY SO. SO WE W ERE PROVIDED A NICE DOCUMENT W ITH VARIOUS TRANSIT VEHICLES IN IT AND IT IS REALLY HANDY PIECE OF INFORMATION. TO GO THROUGH. IS KENT ON THE LINE TODAY? SPEAKER: HE SAID HE W OULD BE LATE. SPEAKER: YEAH. HE SAID HE WO ULD BE LATE WE CAN GO TO HIM THEN. SPEAKER: I JUST WONDER. THINKING WAS W E WO ULD GO THROUGH THE PHOTOGRAPHIC THEMES W E HAD AHEAD OF GETTING INTO THE DISCUSSION BUT SINCE IT WA S KEN 'S DOCUMENT IT MIGHT BE MORE EFFICIENT TO HAVE HIM JUST RUN THROUGH THAT WI TH US. BUT WH AT WE CAN DO BECAUSE IT IS MORE IMMEDIATELY RELEVANT TO WH AT W E'RE DOING IS LOOK AT THE PHOTOS THAT DID NOT MAKE IT LAST TIME FROM THE LONG ISLAND RAILROAD. I HAD THEM BUT DIDN'T REALIZE I HAD THEM OF SOME COMMUNITY CARS AND THEN WE CAN MOVE INTO THE DISCUSSION OF SOME OF THE ACCESS ISSUES THAT ARE RELATED TO THOSE. AND HOPE OF TRYING TO W RAP SOME THINGS UP OR AT LEAST GET A NICE DIRECTION ON HOW WE 'RE GOING TO FINISH UP NOTES 6 IN THE MATRIX. SO THERE WA S TEXT FOR THOSE SO HOPEFULLY THAT W ORKS OUT OKAY. I DIDN'T HEAR ANYONE ON BOARD FROM LONG ISLAND. IS THAT CORRECT? OKAY. THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH SET OF FOE GRAPHS ARE FROM THE LONG ISLAND C 3 CAR. W HI CH IS A GALLERY CA R. AND FOR THOSE THAT ARE UNFAMILIAR W ITH GALLERY CARS THEY ARE NOT TRUE BI LEVEL CARS. THEY DO HAVE TWO LEVELS OF SEATING BUT THEY ARE SORT OF AN ODD BALL THAT LETS YOU HAVE TWO LEVELS W ITHOUT HAVING THE EXTREME HEIGHTA TRUE BI LEVEL CAR. AND W HEN W E W ER E TALKING ABOUT CIRCULATION IN YOUR DOORWAYS, I BELIEVE THAT'S W HY THE FOLKS FROM LONG ISLAND SENT THESE IN. BUT, I THINK THEY HAVE DONE A PRETTY GOOD JOB SHOWI NG WH ERE THEY PUT HAND HOLDS W ITHOUT HAVING TOO MUCH BUT HAVING ENOUGH SO PEOPLE CAN GET ON AND OFF THE TRAIN SAFELY. THE C 3 IS -- LET'S SEE. BEAR WI TH ME A SECOND HERE. THE NEXT GROUP OF PHOTOGRAPHS IS THE M 3 COMMUTER CAR W HICH I THINK IS -- JUST ASECOND -- I THINK MY PICTURES GOT MIXED UP, HERE.

SPEAKER: BLAIR THEY SHOULD BE IN C 3 SHOW S UP FIRST. AND THEN THE M 3. THEN THE M 7. AND I STARTED LABELING THEM. WE HAD TROUBLE CONVERTING YOUR PICTURES OVER SO W E RAN OUT OF TIME AND THE BOTTOM ONES AREN'T LABELED. SPEAKER: OKAY. THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS W ERE IN A PDF TO MAKE THEM MORE MANAGEABLE AND CONVERTED TO W ORD WH ICH CREATES ITS OWN LITTLE MAGICAL THINGS AT THE SAME TIME. SO OH. IF WE MOVE OVER TO THE M 3 W HICH I BELIEVE IS AN OLDER VEHICLE, THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH OF THE M 3 ACTUALLY IT IS THE SECOND ONE, AND I BELIEVE SOME OF THE THESE MAY HAVE GOTTEN MIXED UP BUT THE PICTURE 4 IN THE HOLE MIX IS PART OF THE C 3 LOOKING THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION FROM THE STAIRS. SO, IF WE GO TO PICTURE 5, -- OH, I'M WRONG -- MY PROBLEM W ITH MY PRINTING. PICTURE 4 IS THE M 3 AND THAT'S INTERESTING I THINK BECAUSE IT SHOW S THE WI ND SCREEN THAT'S DENNIS TALKED ABOUT. IT HAS HORIZONTAL HAND HOLDS JUST INSIDE THE CALL. EXTENSIONS ARE OUT BEYOND THE WI ND W INGS. I GUESS THAT COULD BE AN ACCUMULATION ISSUE WI TH FOLKS. BUT GENERALLY IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS NOT A BAD CAR TO GET INTO. IF YOU MOVE TO PICTURE 5, I THINK THAT'S SORT OF A BETTER SHOT. OF HOW THAT'S LAID OUT. I SUPPOSE, DEPENDING ON IF YOU TRIED TO APPLY THIS TO A SUBW AY IT MAYBE A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT BUT THESE CARS, THE INTE NT IS PEOPLE NOT PACK UP. I'M NOT SURE AND CRUSH LOADING IF THIS SPACE FILLS ONE PEOPLE OR NOT. MAYBE SOMEONE IF THERE'S ANYONE ON FROM LONG ISLAND THEY CAN SPEAK TO THAT OR GENTLEMAN FROM METRA IN CHICAGO. YOU HAVE SIMILAR LAYOUTS TO THIS? SPEAKER: THE Y ARE SIMILAR. W HAT W E WE RE GOING TO OFTEN BLA I R I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS TOO LATE IN THE GAME OR NOT. WE COULD TAKE A BUNCH OF PICTURES FROM OUR CURRENT VEHICLES AND SEND THEM OFF SO YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO LOOK AT THE NEXT TIME IF THAT'S USEFUL FOR YOU. BLA IR: I W ON'T DISCOUNT IT BUT ANY INFORMATION IS GOOD TO HAVE FOR THE COMPARISON. AND OBVIOUSLY W E GOT TO GET SOME TIGHT WO RDINGAROUND THESE THINGS SOONER RATHER THAN LATER. SO W E CAN PUSH

THAT FOR

WA RD TO THE FULL COMMITTEE. SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS CANNON . THE ISSUE THAT WE W ERE DEBATING LAST TIME WA S THE POLE ESSENTIALLY IN THE CENTER IN THE PASSAGE FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER. THE ISSUE IS NOT PEOPLE REALLY. PEOPLE WI LL CONJUGATE AROUND THE DOORWAYS NO MATTER WH AT DO YOU. THE IDEA IS THAT PEOPLE MOVE AND CAN MOVE AND YOU CAN'T MOVE THE (INAUDIBLE) SO IT IS EXTRA IMPEDIMENT. THE VERTICAL POLES W OULD ALLOW SOMEBODY TO MOVE SLIGHTLY INSIDE THE CAR AND HAVE SOMETHING TO GET A HOLD OF IF THEY ARE UNSTEADY OR W HATEVER. BUT THERE'S ENOUGH ROOM I THINK TO GET AROU ND THAT WI ND SCREEN THAT, SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE PEOPLE CONJUGATED BY THE DOOR BUT NOT, THEY CAN GET OUT OF THE W AY OF SOMEBODY COMING IN, IN THE CHAIR. THERE'S LOTS OF ROOM FOR PEOPLE TO SORT OF MOVE, CONTINUE TO HANG ONTO THE VERTICAL EXTENSION AND MOVE AR OUND THE CORNER SO THEY ARE OUT OF THE WAY. THE PROBLEM W ITH THE VERTICAL EXTENSION IN THE CENTER IS THAT PEOPLE WH O MIGHT BE UNSTEADY W OULD SORT OF MOVE TOWA RD IT AND THEY ARE SORT OF STUCK THERE. THEY CAN'T GET OUT OF THE WAY AND STILL HANG ONTO THE POLE AND ARE THEN IN THE WA Y OF ANYBODY COMING IN AND OUT OF THE CARS ESPECIALLY IF YOU GOT TO COME IN ON ONE SIDE IN A CHAIR AND GO OUT ON THE OTHER SIDE. BLAIR: THANKS DENNIS. THAT WAS A VERY GOOD POINT. THINKING ABOUT THAT IF YOU STUCK A POST IN THE MIDDL E OF THAT SPACE W OULD IT BECOME VERY DIFFICULT AND YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT IF PEOPLE ARE IN A POSITION WH ERE THEY CAN STEP ASIDE OR ROTATE AROUND THE POLE THEY ARE MORE APT TO DO IT AND BEING BY THE WI ND SCREENS AND SOME OF THESE OTHER CONDITIONS IS MORE CON DUCIVE SO THAT. THE LAST SET OF PHOTO GRAPHS THE M 7 W HICH ARE NEW ER. THEY ARE INTERESTING. IN THE VERY FIRST PHOTOGRAPH IN THAT BATCH, LET'S SEE -- ACTUALLY IT IS THE SECOND PHOTOGRAPH IN THAT BATCH W HERE YOU CAN SEE THERE'S A -- I GUESS IT IS A DESIGNAT ED AREA YOU CAN GET WH EELCHAIR INTO A VERY ABBREVIATED W IND SCREEN AND EXTENSION TO GO ALONG W ITH IT. I JUST WO NDER IF THAT CONDITION GETS US BACK TO THE THING WE W ERE TRYING TO AVOID W HICH IS HAVING PEOPLE CONJUGATE TOO MUCH BY THE DOOR OR IS THE A REASON ABLE TRADE OFF TO OPEN THAT UP SO IT IS EASIER TO MANEUVER INTO THE DESIGNATEDSPACE. ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS. I'M HAVING TROUBLE FIGURING OUT THE PHOTOGRAPH YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE THERE IS NO NUMBER. BLAIR: BEAR WI TH ME A SECOND DENNIS IS. THE LAST ONE -- THE NUMBER IS PICTURE 6 LONG I'D RAILROAD COMPUTER CAR W HICH IS ON -- LET'S SEE -- DENNIS: THERE IS A DATE 10, 15, 14. IN THE LOW ER RIGHT HAND CORNER. SPEAKER: THAT'S STILL THE M 3 CAR. THE LAST PHOTOGRAPH THE LAST 5 DO N'T HAVE ANYTHING ON THEM AT ALL SO THAT'S THE ONE PAGE 7 OF THE HANDOUTS OR 5 PHOTOS FOR THE BOTTOM OF WH AT WA S POSTED TO THE WE B BEGINNING THE M 7 CAR. SPEAKER: LET ME COUNT UP THEN. OKAY. BLAIR: THERE'S A POSTER W ITH SOMEBODY'S LEGS ON IT SAYS HAVIN G HAD -

- I THINK SOMEONE TORE THE POSTER IN HALF SPEAKER: IN GREEN. SPEAKER: YEAP THAT'S THE ONE. SPEAKER: OKAY AND THERE'S A DOOR RIGHT BESIDE JUST TO THE LEFT OF THE SPACE. SPEAKER: YES. SPEAKER: OKAY. SPEAKER: THAT, THE VERY NEXT PHOTOGRAPH IS TAKEN FROM OUTSIDE THE CAR LOOKING IN BUT THAT HAS THAT ABBREVIATED BULK HEAD THERE ANDON THE OTHER SIDE THERE IS YOU KNOW A REGULAR WI DTH W IND SCREEN

BUT LIGHTS LIKE AN EFFORT WA S TO OPEN THAT PATH WAY UP SO IT I S A LITTLE EASIER YOU KNOW , TO COME IN AND MOVE AROUND W ITHOUT HAVING TO GO TO A PARTICULAR DEFINED DOOR SPACE. WH AT DO YOU THINK OF THAT DENNIS? DENNIS: YEAH. THAT LOOKS -- AGAIN THE ISSUE IS REALLY TO TRY TO KEEP THAT AREA BETWE EN DOORS CLEAR. SO THAT YOU GO FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER SO HAVE YOU FOR MOVE AROUND THE CORNER AND GET INTO THIS SPACE BUT LOOKS LIKE THERE IS W IDE ENOUGH AISLES TO DO THAT WI THOUT MAJOR HASSLES. THERE'S NO FIX THE EXTENSION IN THE WA Y. THAT'S WH AT WE 'RE CONCERNED ABOUT. THING S YOU CAN'T MOVE. PEOPLE WI LL CONJUGATE THERE NO MATTER WHAT. SPEAKER: YES AND EVEN SOME OF THE NEW ER DEVICES REALLY ENCOURAGE THAT EVEN MORE BECAUSE THEY SPROUT INTO FOUR HAD THEY GET HIGHER. SO SORT OF SHOUT OUT HERE COME HERE AND HANG ON, W HICH IS THE IR JOB. AND W HEN YOU LOOK AT THE POLES IN PLACE MINUS THE PEOPLE STANDING THERE THEY DON'T LOOK SO BAD BUT KNOW ING YOU ARE GOING TO FILL THOSE THING UP WI TH PEOPLE AND THEY TAKE UP ROOM AND THAT'S GOING TO INROACH ON ANY PATH WAY NEARBY SO I THOUGHT THESE WE RE NICE IMAGES TO GIVE US AN IDEA OF HOW YOU CAN HAVE REASONABLY ACCESSIBLE SPACE AND HAND HOLDS AND THINGS WI THOUT THE POLES IN THE MIDDLE. NOW ELSE WH ERE IN THE VEHICLE WH EN YOU GET A WA Y FROM THE DOORWAY AND ACCESSIBLE SPACES THERE MAYBE OTHER DEVICES , I DON'T KNOW BUT THEY WOULDN'T -- IT WO ULDN'T HAVE ANY EFFECT ON CIRCULATION RIGHT BY THE DOOR. WI TH THAT, IF WE CAN LOOK AT THE AGENDA ITEM FOR JUST NUMBER 5 WH ICH IS NOTE 6 B ON THE MATRIX. SPEAKER: THERE'S A MOVIE ABOUT THE MATRIX. SPEAKER: GETTI NG ALMOST THAT COMPLICATED. THAT TAKES US BACK TO THE ISSUE OF TRYING TO DEFINE THE CLEAR SPACE ACROSS THE CAR. MY IMPRESSION IS THAT WE 'RE GOING TO GO FORWA RD RECOMMENDING THIS CLEAR SPACE ACROSS THE CAR. I KNOW THAT FROM SOME E - MAIL W ASAARON OUT IN AT B ART HE CONTINUES TO HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THAT.

AND I W ILL HAVE ANOTHER CONVERSATION W ITH HIM. I KNOW MARILYN SENT ME A NOTE HOW WE 'RE GOING TO WORD THIS. W HAT I HAVE W RITTEN RIGHT NOW EVERYTHING THAT'S IN RED IS W HAT I ADDED SINCE THE LAST TIME. AND SO LET ME READ THAT OUT FOR FOLKS WH O AREN'T SEEING THIS. THE OPINION EXPRESSED GENERALLY BY THE COMMUNITY MEMBERS IS VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF RECOMMENDING THE CLEAR PROJECTED SPACE 44 "S WI DE ACROSS THE VEHICLE ASSUMING THE DOORS ARE ACROSS FROM EACH OTHER THE MOS T CONCERN IT CAN BE DIFFICULT OR IMPRACTICAL FOR FOLKS USING W HEELCHAIR TO MOVE INTO SPACE OR OFF THE TRAINEE FENCES. MANEUVERING CAN BE DIFFICULT. REGULATION IS OFTEN AN UNFORTUNATE NECESSITY TO ENSURE THAT WH AT SHOULD BE COURTESY IN CIVILIZED SOCIETY IS GUARANTEED PARTICULARLY W HEN SOME OF THE PEOPLE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO EXERCISE THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. IF SEEN DURING THE COURSE OF THE R VAC W ORK IT WAS FOUND BY ONE PROVIDER OTHER SYSTEMS ARE CONCERNED THAT SAFETY MAY BE COMPROMISED W HI LE IT IS MOST LIKELY THE SUBCOMMITTEE AND FULL COMMITTEE RECOMMENDS A 44 INCH DIMENSION ACROSS THE CAR PERHAPS THE ACCESS BOARD COULD BEST SERVE THE COMMUNITY AND PROVIDERS BY CONSIDERING STUDIES MODIFICATIONS AND PROCUREMENTS UNDERWAY BEFORE CONSIDERING T HE RULE. OFTEN CHANGE THAT'S SEEM IMPRACTICAL CREATE PROBLEMS BY THOSE EXPERIENCED BY THE WASHINGTON D.C. METRO. W E CAN CERTAINLY WR ITE UP. AND I DO THINK THAT IT W OULD BE WORTH KNOWI NG THERE'S ACTIVITIES GOING ON WI TH BART AND OTHER AGENCIES IT WO ULD BE W ORTH LEAVING SOME SORT OF LANGUAGE TO THAT EFFECT TO THE ACCESS BOARD FOLKS. ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT? SPEAKER: THIS IS -- OH, -- SORRY. I THOUGHT -- OKAY. I THOUGHT THIS IS MARILYN. IF I THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD W RITE UP ONE POINT, I KNOW FOR THE BOARD TO CONSIDER ALL THE THINGS THEY ALWAYS CONSIDER, IS SORT OF ALL IS TRUE FOR EVERYTHING. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S A NEED TO PARTICULARLY CALL IT OUT. I THINK IT IS GOOD THAT YOU POINTED OUT THAT YOU KNOW , OTHER SYSTEMS ALTHOUGH W E HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THAT M ANY BUT CONCERNING SAFETY I W OULD LIKE TO YOU ADD THERE ARE ALSO VOICES FROM INDUSTRY W HO HAVE STATED THAT PREYING FLOWAND OTHER REASONS THE (PASSENGER FLOW ) THE UP TO - DATE PRACTICE IS MOVING AWAY FROM HAVING THE POLES FROM RAPIDMOVING RAIL CARS AND BLAI R YOU AND I CHANGED E - MAILS ABOUT THAT

GENTLEMAN THAT SAID THAT IN RECENT MEETINGS. SO IT IS NOT ON THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY. THOSE MUCH MY COMMENTS I THOUGHT OTHER WI SE IT IS A GOOD W RITE UP. I THOUGHT IT IS A VERY POLITE -- VERY SORT OF DEFERENTIAL TO EVE RYBODY AND I JUST HOPE THAT YOU KNOW, IN A GOOD WAY, I JUST HOPE AT THE SAME TIME IT IS CLEARER W HAT WE 'RE SAYING. BUT I THINK IT PROBABLY IS AND I THINK YOU HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB CAPTURING THE DISCUSSION. SPEAKER: MARILYN THIS IS MARSHA MAZZ AND IF I MAY -- I GET THE POINT ABOUT COURTESY. BUT I THINK THAT'S A BALANCED BY YOU KNOW , NEEDS TO BE BALANCED BY THE POINT THE DESIGN ITSELF CAN WORK AGAINST COURTESY. IF YOU KNOW W HAT I MEAN. AND SO BY ENCOURAGING PEOPLE, NOT JUST BY PROVIDING SOMETHING FOR THEM TO TEMPORARILY HOLD ONTO BUT BY PROVIDED W HAT LOOKS LIKE SANCTIONED STANDING SPACES THAT OBSTRUCT THE W HEELCHAIR SPACE AND MANEUVERING YOU ARE REALLY ASKING THAT WH EELCHAIR SPACE TO DO DOUBLE DUTY AND I UNDERSTAND W HY. BUT IN THE END YOUR DESIGN REALLY HAS TO ENABLE AND INVITE PEOPLE TO MOVE A

WA Y FROM THE WH EELCHAIR SPACE WH EN THAT SPACE IS NEEDED BY OUR USER. AND, I THINK THAT SOME MORE CAREFUL ATTENTION TO DESIGN FOR CROW DING CONDITIONS IS REALLY WARRANTED. DOES THAT THAT MAKE SENSE? BLAIR: DOES IT MARSH A . AND I THINK -- SPEAKER: AND IT MAY GO TO BEYOND JUST WH ERE YOU PUT THE EXTENSIONS IT MAY GO TO HOW YOU, HOW CLOSE YOU PUT YOUR SEATING TO THE OPEN SPACE IN BETWE EN, IN BETWE EN SEATS AND YOUR CORRIDOR. BECAUSE IF YOUR CORRIDOR LOOKS LIKE A PLACE WH ERE A PERSON CAN BE TRAPPED AND THE OPEN SPACE BY THE DOORS LOOKS MORE AMENABLE TO ESCAPE THAT'S W HE RE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COLLECT. BLAIR: RIGHT. I THINK IT WAS INTERESTING IN THE LONG ISLAND W HERE THEY HAD THAT ABBREVIATED W IND SCREEN W ALL THAT THE HARD BARRIER W AS REMOVED SO THINKING ABOUT THAT SPACE BEING FULL OF PEOPLE, THAT STANDEES THAT NEED TO MOVE OUT OF THE WA Y MIGHT HAVE A BE TTER WA Y TO MOVE OUT OF THE W AY BUT ON THE OTHER HAND W ITH THE WA LLOUT OF THE WAY DOES THAT CREATE MORE SPACE FOR PEOPLE TO STAND

SPEAKER: MY THOUGHT -- THAT PERSON W HO ALWA YS STANDS W ITH THEIR BACK FLAT AGAINST THE WI ND SCREEN AS SUPPORT AND THEY STAND THERE, YOU HAVE A W IND SCREEN ON EACH SIDE THE DOOR SO YOU GOT TW O PEOPLE BASICALLY W ITH THEIR BACKS PRESSED AGAINST THE FULL WI DT H OF THE WI ND SCREEN BECAUSE THAT IS SHORTER IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO THAT. SO NOT ONLY HAVE YOU REMOVED AN OBSTACLE THAT IS P ERMANENT BUT THAT PERSON WH O PLANTS THEIR FEET AND STANDS AGAINST THE WI ND SCREEN HAS A PLACE TO DO THAT. SO THIS IS SOME PSYCHOLOGY TO THIS BUT THEY ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE NICE AND FIRMLY PLANTED GUARDING THEIR TERRITORY. AND SO, I ACTUALLY THINK THAT BY O PENING IT UP THEY HAVE NOT ONLY MADE IT EASIER FOR A W HEELCHAIR USER TO MANEUVER BUT THEY REMOVED THAT SANCTIONED PERSONAL SPACE. BLAIR: IT IS A FINE LINE, I THINK. AND I THINK YOU MADE A GOOD POINT BEFORE WH EN YOU MENTIONED THAT THE DESIGN CAN WO RK AGAI NST COURTESY. AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE DON'T GET UP IN THE MORNING AND SAY I'M GOING TO GO BE DISCOURTEOUS TO FOLKS ON THE TRAIN BUT IT WO RKS OUT TO BE THAT WAY AND PART IS PEOPLE DON'T PAY ATTENTION. TO THE THINGS THAT YOU KNOW WE USED TO LEARN IF KINDERGA RTEN THERE WA S A BOOK CALLED: EVERYTHING I REALLY NEED TO KNOWI LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN WH ICH IS A GOOD BOOK. SPEAKER: IT WA S A GOOD BOOK SPEAKER: AND THOSE KIND OF THINGS ROLE INTO THAT. SO, THE TASK IS GOING TO BE TO WR ITE THIS UP. AGAIN I THOUGHT OR IGINALLY THE EASIEST THING TO DO W AS TO PROJECT THE CLEAR, DESIRED CLEAR SPACE ACROSS THE CAR AND IF YOU GO AT IT WI TH LET'S GO TO THE EDGE OF THAT CLEAR SPACE AND PUT A POST THEN MAYBE IT DOESN'T W ORK SO W ELL BUT, I THINK IT DOES COME DOW N TO DESIGNING SO THAT WE 'RE ENCOURAGED TO STAND OR YOU ACCUMULATE WH ERE THEY NEED BE. AND BEING THERE NOT CREATING AN OBSTACLE WH EN PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO BOARD OR DETRAIN. I DON'T REMEMBER IF -- WH O IT W AS FROM THE MANUFACTURE IF IT WAS ANDRES OR STEVE FROM LTC WH O MENTION ED BEFORE THE TREND. ANDRE --

SPEAKER: I'M SORRY THIS IS MARILYN. IT WA S STEVE. SPEAKER: YES -- IT W ASN'T ME. BLAIR: OKAY. AND I DON'T REALLY SEE STEVE IS ON SEE IF W E HAVE ANYONE ON FROM TLC TODAY BUT I THOUGHT THAT WA S INTERESTING THEY ARE SEEING TH AT TREND ON THE MANUFACTURING SIDE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THESE THINGS AND I THINK THAT TREND PART OF IT IS THE MATURING OF REALLY GETTING THE CONCEPT OF ACCESSIBILITY AND NOT TREATING IT OR NOT S WI MMING UP STREAM AGAINST SOMETHING THAT IS JUST TOO MUCH TROUB LE TO S WI M AGAINST. AND W HAT YOU GET IN THE END MAY NOT BE AS GOOD AS IT COULD BE IF YOU REALLY EMBRACED THE POSITIVES, THE UNINTENDED POSITIVE CONSEQUENCES OF BUILDING IN THE ACCESSIBILITY. IT SEEMS THAT W E NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT LIKE -- SPEAKER: THIS IS DE NNIS. I WA NT ED TO MAYBE KIND OF PUT A HEAD ON IT. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE GENERAL CONSENSUS FROM EVERYBODY THERE OUGHT TO BE A CLEAR PATH FROM ONE DOOR TO THE OTHER AND THE ONLY OBJECTION I HEARD W AS FROM BART. AM I W RONG? ANY OTHER PROBLEMS PEOPLE HAVE. S EEMS W E'RE SPENDING LOT OF TIME DEALING W ITH ONE AGENCY'S OBJECTION TO IT. AS WE LOOK AT THE PICTURE THAT KEN TOOK THERE IS LOTS OF OTHER CARS AROUND THAT SHOW PLENTY OF CLEAR SPACE AND HAND RAILS AND PLACES GRAB ONTO AND PLACE TO STANDS THAT DON'T HAVE A POLE IN THE CENTER SO I'M NOT SURE -- IT SEEMS TO ME WE MADE IT PRETTY MUCH AN AGREEMENT WI TH ONE OBJECTION. SPEAKER: THIS IS KEN. I JUST JOINED AND THAT'S WH AT MY RECOLLECTION IS AS W ELL. SPEAKER: I JUST W ANTED TO LET YOU NOEL I DO HAVE SEVERAL PEOPLE ON THE CALL DON, CHRISTOPHER HARD. GLEN MILLIS. KEN, ROBERT ROYER AND FRANK.SPEAKER: ROSE, IS THERE SOMETHING YOU NEED FROM ME?

SPEAKER: NO THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH, CHRIS. THANK YOU. SPEAKER: THIS IS BOB REUTER WH EN I W AS IN HOUSTON AS THE CONVENTION I WA S ON THE BART MOCK UP AND THEY HAD MOVED THAT POLE TO THE CENTER SOME AND IT LOOKS LIKE THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM THERE NOW. MELISSA: ARE YOU TRYING TO KEEP THE POLE OR PEOPLE OUT OF THE SPACE A. LOT OF METRO CARS HAVE OVERHEAD HAND HELDS AND PEOPLE CAN S TAND AND HANG ON AT THE CEILING LEVEL. SPEAKER: THE PROBLEM IS THEY PARK THEMSELVES THERE MELISSA AND THEY DON'T MOVE. PARTICULARLY IF THE DESIGN DOESN'T INVITE THEM TO MOVE. SPEAKER: THIS IS CHRIS. THE POST EXTENSIONS INCLUDES (INAUDIBLE) OBSTACLE TO GET AROUND. SPEAKER: RIGHT AND THIS IS MELISSA ANDERSON AND MY POINT IS IF YOU ARE TRYING TO KEEP PEOPLE OUT YOU NEED TO ADDRESS THE OVERHEAD. SPEAKER: THIS IS GOING TO GET FILLED AT PEAK HOURS SO NO MATTER WH AT AGENCY, THINK ABOUT SOME OVERHEAD HAND HOLDS. SO AT THAT POINT THE COMMITTEE MAY AT LEAST W ANT TO DEFINE WHAT THOSE ARE. JUST SO THERE'S SOME (INAUDIBLE) ON THAT. SPEAKER: MELISSA, MY IMPRESSION HAS BEEN BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT REALLY TALKED ABOUT THE OVERHEAD HAND HOLDS THAT YES. CHRIS'S POINT PEOPLE ARE GOING BE IN THAT SPACE DURING PEAK HOURS REGARDLESS. THEY W ILL BE THERE WI TH SOMETHING TO HOLD ONTO OR NOTHING BUT I THINK THEY WI LL BE THERE. I THINK THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS WH AT ARE THE OPTIONS SOMEONE NEEDS TO GET ON OR OFF THE TRAIN AND IF YOU KNOW PEOPLE TO DENNIS'S PEOPLE, PEOPLE CAN MOVE THEY'RE FLEXIBLE. THEY CAN EVEN MOVE AND HOLD ONTO AN OVERHEAD BAR TO MAKE A PATH. BUT IN THAT PATH THERE IS A VERTICAL STANSION THECHOICES OF PEOPLE TRYING TO GET OUT OF THE WA Y, SO I THINK THE BIGGER ISSUE IS AW AY FROM THE FLOOR. AM I SEEING THAT CORRECTLY SPEAKER: THIS IS BOB. ONE OF THE THINGS I NOTICED IN ONE CAR IT DOESN'T HAVE MODEST PANELS INSIDE THE DOOR. MOST HAVE BARGAIN IN THE THE DOOR ON THE SIDE AND THE BART CARS SEEM TO BE MORE OPEN. SPEAKER: DENNIS: I SUSPECT SOME OF THOSE DESIGNS W IL L BE DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON W HE RE YOU ARE LOCATED. IF YOU ARE IN A VERY W INDY C ITY LIKE CHICAGO W ITH LOTS OF WI ND AND COLD AIR YOU MAY W ANT TO HAVE THOSE PANELS THERE. IN ANOTHER AREA WH ICH IS A LITTLE MILDER, YOU MIGHT W ANT NEED THOSE. I THINK PART OF THAT IS TO KEEP THE W IND AND THE RAIN AND EVERYTHING. I W AS SITTING IN ONE OF THE METRO CARS YEARS AGO WH EN W E HAD ONE OF THESE FREAK THUNDERSTORMS COME UP AND AS SOON AS THE DOOR OPENED I GOT DRENCHED WITH THIS W ATER BEING BLOWN IN BECAUSE OF THE WI NDS SO I SUSPECT IN SOME AREAS YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE THOSE WI ND SCREENS AND SOME AREAS Y OU ARE NOT AND I'M NOT SURE W E CAN SAY THAT THEY SHOULD NEVER BE THERE FOR ANY REASON. I THINK W E DESIGNED THOSE KIND OF THINGS IT IS GO TO VARY FROM PLACE TO PLACE. MARILYN: ANOTHER POINT IS THAT, JUST A COUPLE COMMENTS MADE A FE W MINUTES AGO. ONE OF TH E BART DESIGNS HAD RELOCATED A POLE FARTHER INSIDE THE CAR. NOW I'M NOT SURE OW E OPEN THE DESIGNS I'VE SEEN DON'T MOVE IT ALL THAT MUCH BUT MAYBE THERE ARE OTHER DESIGNS I HAVEN'T SEEN. BUT AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT ALLOW S FOR THE 44 INCH, YOU KNOW , SQUARE TO MOVE ACROSS THE PICTURE W ITHOUT RUNNING INTO A POLE BUT THE COMMENTS IN THIS DECISION SUGGEST TO ME THAT EVEN IF IT IS OUT OF THE WA Y OF THAT 44 INCHES, IT IS STILL A BLOCKAGE WI TH PEOPLE AROUND THE POLE. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO -- CAPTURE THAT CONCERN IN TE RMS OF LANGUAGE. BUT, IT JUST OCCURRED TO ME LISTENING TO PEOPLE RIGHT NOW. SPEAKER: BOB. WH EN I SA W THE CAR IN HOUSTON THEY MODIFIED IT AND THE POLE W AS MOVED TO THE CENTER OF THE CAR. THERE W AS 44 INCHES STRAIGHT ACROSS BUT YOU HAD TO DO A V SHAPE TO G ET AROUND THE POLE WO ULD STILL BE IN YOUR W AY TO A POINT BUT THERE W AS PLENTY OFROOM ON THAT SIDE THERE W ERE NO SEATS -- TOWA RDS THE END OF THE

CAR THERE WE RE NO SEATS. ONE ROW WA S NOT THERE. SPEAKER: ONE THING IS THAT THE BART CARS ARE A LITTLE HARDER -- CERTAINLY IN CHICAGO, AS WE LL AS THE BART CARS. SO THERE'S CERTAIN THINGS THAT MAY APPLY IN TERMS OF THINKING HOW PEOPLE CAN SECURE THEMSELVES, SECURE THEIR RIDE AS STANDEES AND IT IS REALLY AS BIG OF A CONCERN. SPEAKER: CERTAINLY THE BART CARS OF THE WI DEST PUBLIC CARS IN THE UNITED STATES. SPEAKER: RIGHT. TOKYO OR KYOTO AND IN THOSE COUNTRIES. AND ONE THING YOU FOLKS MAY W ANT TO THINK ABOUT IS WH AT DOES THAT HAND RAIL LOOK LIKE THAT COMES DOW N AT THE SEAT, YOU KNOW . IS THAT A POLE? OR IS THAT ONLY A HAND RAIL? IT VARIES RIGHT NOW. YOU START TO PUT IN A VERTICAL POLE, YOU MAY ACTUALLY NOT NEED A POLE IN THE CENTER AREA. SPEAKER: THIS IS KEN SHIOTANI . THE POW ERPOINT T THAT I DON'T KNOW IF FOLKS HAVE SEEN YET SHOW S, HAS PICTURES FROM TORONTO SOME OLD DC METRO CARS AND THE NE WE ST ONES IN - SERVICE, THE 6 THOUSAND SO WH EN W E'RE DISCUSSING -- FOR ME SEEING THE STUFF MAKES ME -- MAKES IT MORE HELPFUL TO UNDERSTAND AND I THINK W HEN WE GET TO THEM, SOME OF THE OLDER CARS HAVE A VERTICAL POLE GOING FROM -- THAT' S A WA Y FROM THE MODESTY PLATE AND GOES TO THE CEILING. THE NE WE R CARS DON'T HAVE THAT THE TORE RON TO CARS DON'T HAVE THAT BUT THEY HAVE POLES TO GO UP AND THEY ALSO HAVE ALONG THE EDGE OF THE DOORWAY IN SOME OF THE TORONTO CARS SO I TOOK THE PICTURES S O WE COULD JUST HAVE A SENSE OF DIFFERENT IDEAS. I DON'T KNOW HOW W E PUT IT INTO RECOMMENDATIONS BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF THE NE WE R CARS DO SEEM TO MOVE AW AY FROM POLES IN THE CENTER OF THE FLOOR. NEAR THE DOORS OR A

WAY FROM THE DOORS OR W HEREVER AND GO TO H AND POLE THAT'S GO UP FROM THE SEATS OR THE MODESTLY PANELS TO GIVE FOLKS THINGS TO HAND ONTO.SPEAKER: BOB. WH EN I W AS IN HOUSTON I TOOK A LARGE NUMBER OF

PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE INSIDE OF THIS CAR BECAUSE I KNEWW E WE RE TALKING ABOUT IT SO I COULD SEND THOS E UP TO MELISSA I GUESS AND LET HER PUT THEM OUT. SPEAKER: KEN, THIS IS BLAIR, I KNE W YOU W ERE GOING TO BE A LITTLE LATE GETTING HERE. WE DIDN'T GO THROUGH YOUR POW ERPOINT BECAUSE IT WA S YOURS. SPEAKER: AND THEY'RE BASICALLY JUST SNAPSHOTS OF THE INTER IORS OF THE CAR BUT IT W ILL HELP PEOPLE SEE W HAT IS BEING DONE AND THE NEW EST TORONTO CARS ARE IMPRESSIVE BECAUSE OF THE DESIGN ISSUES THEY HAVE A FULL W IDTH GANG WAY OR THAT'S WH AT WI KIPEDIA CALLS IT. YOU CAN MOVE W ITH NO DIFFICULT IT IS ALMOST THE FULL W I DT H OF CAR. IT IS PRETTY COOL. SPEAKER: COULD YOU RUN THROUGH YOUR POW ERPOINT. I THINK IT W OULD BE WO RT H GOING THROUGH IT AND IF THERE'S ANY HIGHLIGHTS THAT YOU ARE IMMEDIATELY AW ARE OF IF YOU COULD POINT THOSE OUT AND WE CAN GO BACK AND W RAP THIS POINT UP AND MOVE ON AND DECIDE HOW W E'RE GOING TO GO FORWARD WI TH OUR RECOMMENDATIONS. SPEAKER: OKAY. SPEAKER: BLAIR BEFORE KEN STARTS THIS IS MARSHA IF I MAY RESPOND TO BOB. WE HAVE A LOT OF PHOTOGRAPHS NOW . KEN HAS GIVEN US TONS OF THEM. IF YOU FEEL THAT HAVE YOU PHOTOGRAPHS THAT ILLUSTRATE SOMETHING NOT SHOW N TRY TO GO AHEAD AND SEND THEM BUT I'M GOING TO ASK PEOPLE FROM REFRAIN FROM SENDING IN MATE RIALS THAT ARE DUPLICATED ELSE WHERE ON THE SITE BECAUSE IT TAKES LOT OF STAFF TIME TO GET THESE THINGS ACCESSIBLE AND UP ON THE SITE AND I'M JUST GOING TO PLEAD FOR MERCY ON MY STAFF. SPEAKER: THE ONES I HAVE ARE THE BRAND NEW ONES OF THE CAR. CAN YOU DEC IDE W HETHER OR NOT TO PUT THEM ON. SPEAKER: TELL YOU W HAT, YOU DECIDE W HETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ILLUSTRATING SOMETHING NOT SHOWN IF SO, FINE. BUT JUST THINK ABOUTIT TWI CE BEFORE YOU SEND A LOT OF STUFF THAT MY STAFF HAS TO -- GET --

SPEAKER: AND BOB IF Y OU HAVE SOMETHING REALLY YOU THINK IS DIFFERENT SEND TO IT ME AND I CAN W RITE A CAPTION OR I CAN -- SPEAKER: OKAY THERE YOU GO. I WI LL SEND TO IT YOU. I'M SORRY -- YOU ARE? SPEAKER: KEN. SPEAKER: JUST WA NTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD THE RIGHT PERSON. SPEA KER: SO W E CAN JUST IF PEOPLE HAVE IT WE CAN SKIP THROUGH TO -- LET ME SEE HOW MANY HERE -- I DID CERTAIN THINGS FOR ANOTHER PURPOSE SO IT IS -- ALL RIGHT. SEVEN. THE FIRST SLIDE ACCESSIBILITY IN RAPID RAIL SUBW AYS. THESE ARE THE NOT THE NEW EST CARS IN TOR ONTO AND I HAVE A TW O SHOTS OF SORT OF THE W HEELCHAIR SPACE AND I GUESS FOR PURPOSES OF THIS DISCUSSION THE THINGS TO HIGHLIGHT YOU CAN SEE IN THE LEFT HAND PICTURE THE TWO MODESTY PAN ALW AYS IN A VERTICAL BAR GOING UP ON THE PASSENGER STANDEE SIDE AND THE RE IS ALSO A HORIZONTAL BAR WI TH A STRAP W HAT USED TO BE CALLED STRAP HANGER THINGS. AGAIN I DON'T KNOW AL THE JARGON BUT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU CAN HOLD ONTO N. THAT CAR DESIGN THEY DON'T HAVE, IF YOU LOOK IN THE PICTURE ON THE RIGHT, THEY DON'T HAVE VERTI CAL GRABS OVER THE DOOR OR FROM THE CEILING. I THINK THE IDEA IS TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO MOVE INTO THE CAR AND AGAIN I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S A GOOD DESIGN OR NOT. I'M JUST SAYING HERE'S EXAMPLES OF WH AT AGENCIES DO. TO, THAT SORT OF LEAVES A LOT OF OPEN SPACE B UT DOES HAVE A REASONABLE NUMBER OF VERTICAL THINGS FOR STANDEES. IN THE RIGHT PHOTOGRAPH THERE'S A W OMEN IN A W HEELCHAIR BUT WH EN YOU SEE THE SEATS BEHIND HER AGAIN THERE'S FORWA RD AND REAR FACING SEATS W ITH A VERTICAL POLE THAT STARTS FROM THE BACK UP T O THE SEAT UP TO THE CEILING. SO, YOU KNOW , THAT'S DESIGN -- THAT DESIGN, THE NEXT SLIDE JUST SHOW S FOR THE PURPOSES OF W HEN WE WE RE DISCUSSING DOOR W IDTH, THE TORONTO CARS, I THINK THERE IS 75 FEET LONG 4 SETS OF DOORS ON EACH SIDE AND THE DOORS ARE W IDER THAN MOST CARS AND I ASKED FOR THE W IDTH BECAUSE I FORGET TO BRINGA TAPE MEASURE. BUT WE KNOW SOMEW HAT W IDER DOOR IS POSSIBLE

THESE TORONTO CARS ARE ABOUT 60 SO NOT QUITE 30 PER LEAF DEFINITELY NOT 32 BUT THE TORONTO SYSTEM DECIDED TO DO W IDE DOORS, 4 ON EACH SIDE AND THE WI DTH IS ABOUT 60 INCHES. I THINK HE HAD IT IN MILLIMETERS SO APPROXIMATELY 60 INCHES. SPEAKER: THIS ANDRE. I WO ULD HAVE TO DOUBLE CHECK. SPEAKER: IT SEEMS LIKE THE T 1 CARS LOOKED SIMILAR IN TERMS OF GENERAL YOU KNOW DOORW AYS AND SE ATING STUFF BUT AGAIN I FORGET TO BRING A MEASURE BUT I'M NOT SURE BUT THEY DO SEEM CLEARLY W IDER THAN METRO CITY NEW YORK CITY SUBW AYS SO I THOUGHT WO ULD BE HELPFUL. NEXT SLIDE TORONTO ROBERT CAR. THAT'S W HAT IT IS CALLED? SPEAKER: RIGHT. ONE COMMENT B EFORE YOU MOVE ON LOOK ON THE SLIDE 7 JUST SO THAT PEOPLE ARE NOTICING THERE IS WI ND SCREENS ON EACH SIDE OF THE DOOR SO THAT IS EXTENSIONS TOWARDS THE CENTER OF THE VEHICLE AND PEOPLE CAN ANGLE TO THEM AND YOU W ILL SEE SOMETHING SIMILAR ON THE ROCKET, THE EAGLE. SO THERE IS NO EXTENSION IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DOORWAY BUT YOU HAVE EXTENSION AT THE W IND SCREENS. SPEAKER: OKAY. SO GOING TO THE NEXT ONE THE ROCKET. THEY HAVE YOU KNOW AGAIN YOU CAN SEE THE W IDE DOOR ON THE PICTURE ON THE LEFT BUT ON PICTURE ON THE READY FOR ME THIS IS VERY COOL. YOU CAN LOOK ALL THE WA

Y DOW N THE CAR BECAUSE IT IS FULL W IDTH BUT FORS PURPOSES WE 'RE FOCUSING ON YOU CAN SEE THERE ARE CEILING MOUNTED STRAPS IN THE CENTER OF THE CAR AND POLES THAT ANGLE FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE SEAT AN D UP TO, CLOSE TO THE CEILING AND THEN ADDITIONAL POLES ON THE LATERAL SEATS. IS THAT W HAT THAT'S CALLED WI TH THE SEATS ARE THAT WAY SPEAKER: LONGITUDE SPEAKER: YES. AND I THINK THERE -- TW O AND THREE -- TW O AND ONE AGAIN YOU CAN SEE A LOT OF CLEAR SPACE BUT A LOT OF GRABS, A LOT OFPLACES HANG ONTO IS WH AT I THOUGHT. THIS CAR WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE

OF. NEXT SLIDE IS AGAIN SOME WH AT DIFFERENT. VIE W OF THE CARS. I GUESS SOME OF THE LATITUDENAL SEATING ARE -- SOME PARTS OF THE CARS IT IS TWO 'S SOME IT IS THREE O R FOUR. AGAIN I WAS TAKING SNAPSHOTS HAVING QUITE A BIT OF CLEAR FLOOR SPACE CAN BE DONE. JUST IF PEOPLE HAVEN'T SEEN THE TORONTO THE PICTURE ON THE LEFT OF THIS SLIDE IS THE GANGW AY BETW EEN THE CARS SO IT IS NOT OUT THE EXACT FULL WI DT H OF THE CAR BUT CHA IR USERS CAN GO THROUGH. THEY ARE PERMANENTLY COUPLED IN SIX CAR THINGS OR AT LEAST THAT'S WH AT WI KIPEDIA SAYS. IT IS NOT QUITE AS FLEXIBLE FOR THE OPERATOR AS PAIRED OR SINGLE CARS BUT IT DOES GAVE LOT OF SPACE FOR THE PASSENGERS. NEXT SLIDE SHOWS THE WH EELCHAIR PARKING SPACE. IN THE ROCKET CAR. AND AGAIN I DON'T KNOW W HAT THE CANADIAN ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS ARE BUT SEEMS LIKE THEY HAVE A SOMEW HAT SIMILAR VIEWTO WH AT WE HAVE HERE. IN THE U.S. AND I GUESS THE TWO THINGS THAT ARE JUST NOT AS COMMON IN OTH ER TRANSIT VEHICLES I'VE SEEN IS THE VERTICAL GRAB BAR RIGHT NEXT TO THE DOOR, NEXT TO THE ACCESSIBLE PARKING SPACE, SINCE THERE'S NO W IND SCREEN IN THAT SPACE AND THERE'S A, I GUESS IT IS PROBABLY CALLED THE MODESTY PANEL. OKAY. AND SO GOING ON, THESE AR E SOME OF THE OLDER DC METRO CARS THAT HAVE BOTH POLES THAT ARE IN FRONT THAT COME OUT FARTHER INTO THE CAR FROM THE MODEST TEA PANEL AND HAVE THREE POLES GOING TOWA RDS THE CENTER OF THE CAR, TW O POLES NEXT TO THE MODEST TEA PANELS AND ONE IN THE CENTER OF THE AISLE AND THE 2000 CARS ARE ADA AND THERE IS ABOUT 30 INCHES BETWE EN THE POLES I DON'T HAVE THE EXACT MEASUREMENT BUT IT NOT 32. IT IS ABOUT 30 -- COULD I BE OFF BY HALF AN INCH. AND IT DOES, YOU KNOW, I HAVE HAD COLLEAGUES SAY THEY HAVE GOTTEN STUCK IN THOSE BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO APPROACH IT AS A PARTICULAR ANGLE. IF YOU DON'T GO PERPENDICULAR TO IT, IT IS -- IT CAN BE A TIGHT THING AND YOU CAN GET A LITTLE STUCK. BUT YOU KNOW, THESE ARE OLDER DESIGNS BUT THIS JUST SHOWS W HAT TRANSIT AGENCIES HAVE DONE AND THAT IS 3000 CAR THAT HAS THE SIMILAR POLE CONFIGURATION BUT HAS SEATS NOT IN PLACE NEXT TO THE DOORS PRESUMABLY FOR A W HEELCHAIR SPACE BUT WO ULD IT BE HARD TO NEGOTIATE FROM THE DOOR INTO THAT SPACE BECAUSE THE POLES ARE THERE AND THE DISTANCE BETW EE N THE TW O POLES IS 30 INCHES AND I FORGET TO MEASURE THE DISTANCE FROM THE POLE TO THE W ALL BUT I THINK THAT'S AN EVEN TIGHTER DISTANCE. SO, YOU KNOW , POLES CLEARLY CAN BE, GET IN THE WA Y. AND PEOPLESTAND NEAR THE DOORS.

4000 CAR SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT. THE RE IS NOW A DEDICATED W HEELCHAIR PARKING POSITION I DON'T THINK IT IS THE EASIEST TO GET INTO. BUT YOU KNOW IT IS THERE IT IS NEXT TO THE DOOR. BUT YOU KNOWYOU HAVE TO GO AROUND W HEELCHAIR USER W OULD HAVE TO MAKE A TURN OR PACK INTO IT AND DEAL WITH THE W IND SCREEN/MODEST TEA PANEL BY THE DOOR IN THIS 4000 CAR. THE PICTURE ON THE LEFT AND THE PICTURE ON THE RIGHT JUST SHOW S IT FROM A DIFFERENT VIEWAND JUST LOOKING -- I THINK ONE OF THE PICTURES IS A DUPLICATE LOOKING DOWN THE CAR W ITH THE THREE POLES NEAR THE DOOR. AND THE NEXT SLIDE THE 5000 ONE OF THE WH EELCHAIR POSITIONS DOES HAVE A FOLD UP SEAT. I THINK IN THE 4000 THERE WAS NO SEAT THERE SO IT LOOKS LIKE WE MAY HAVE MADE THE SPACE A LITTLE BIT WI DER AND PUT IN A FOLD UP SEAT. I DIDN'T REALIZE THERE W ERE FOLD UP SEATS BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER SEEN THEM FOLD UP BUT I W AS NEITHER END OF THE LINE SO I TRITED IT AND IT DOES FOLD UP. SHOWI NG THAT CONFIGURATION. AND THE NEXT SLIDE -- LET ME JUST BACK UP FOR A SECOND. I THINK ALL OF THE METRO CARS DO HAVE HORIZO NTAL BARS ACROSS THE BACKS OF THE SEATS THAT ARE FORWA RD FACING AND REAR FACING SO AGAIN PLACES FOR PEOPLE TO HANG ONTO W HEN THEY MOVE FARTHER INTO THE CAR. SO, GETTING TO THE END OF MY TRANSIT CARS. THIS IS ONE I THINK IS THE CAR THAT DENNIS THOUGHT W AS A PRETTY USEABLE DESIGN. THE 600 0 CARS HAVE A -- DON'T HAVE THE POLES NEAR THE DOORS NO VERTICAL POLES AT ALL FLOOR TO CEILING POLES, AND HAVE A L SHAPED GRAB BAR. IT IS ATTACHED TO THE W ALL NEAR, NE XT TO THE W HEELCHAIR PARKING SPACE YOU CAN, IF NOBODY'S IN A W HEELCHAIR THERE STANDEES HAVE A PLACE. IF A POW ER CHAIR USER I GUESS YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BARS BUT ADDITIONAL PLACES PEOPLE CAN HANG ONTO AGAIN SEEMS LIKE A GOOD DESIGN IN TERMS OF HAVING DI FFERENT BOTH VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL THINGS TO HANG ONTO BUT LEAVING CLEAR SPACE FOR A CHAIR USER TO GO THROUGH. FACING THE OTHER WA Y FROM THE CAR, FACING THE OTHER W AY FROM THE WH EELCHAIR SPACE, THE 600 0 CARS DO HAVE A VERTICAL BAR RIGHT NEXT TO THE DOOR . I FORGET THEY'RE THERE BUT NOW THAT I SEE THE PICTURE, THAT AGAIN SHOWS THAT, YOU KNOW , YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED A POLE IN THE FLOOR BUT COULD YOU HAVE A HANDLE THERE THAT MIGHT BE HELPFUL. AND THEN I HAVE A FEW PICTURES OF THE BRAND NEW BONBARDIE FOU R ARTICULATED CAR IN TORONTO AND THE STREET CAR ARRANGEMENTS CAN BE SOME WH AT DIFFERENT BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW , SHOWI NG THE WH EELCHAIR PARKING SPACE FOLD UP SEATS, VARIOUS HAND RAILS NEXTTO THEM, SOME KIND OF HEADREST OR BODY REST OR SOMETHING.

SPEAKER: FOR RIDING BACKW ARDS. SPEAKER: I DON'T KNOW W HAT THE TECHNICAL TERM IS BUT IT IS JUST SOMETHING TO ASSIST A CHAIR USER WHO MIGHT WA NTTO RIDE BACKW ARDS TO HAVE SOMETHING TO STOP THEIR CHAIR AGAINST. A BUNCH OF STRAPS FROM THE CEILING SPEAKER: ACTUALLY THIS IS AN DRAW , THE VERTICAL CUSHION IS FROM THE REGULATIONS AND IT WA S A REQUIREMENT FROM THE CUSTOMER OF THIS PROJECT. SPEAKER: SO IT IS A SPECIFIC CANADIAN REQUIREMENT? SPEAKER: YES. SO IT IS APPLIED. SPEAKER: OKAY. BUT AGAIN JUS T SHOWING SOME VERTICAL BARS SOME GRAB STRAPS FROM THE TOP, AND THEN THIS, I -- I DIDN'T THINK IT W AS APPROPRIATE TO ASK THE DRIVER TO DEPLOY THE RAMP BUT THAT SHOW S THE ACCESSIBLE DOOR AND IT IS A DOUBLE DOOR, GRABS ON EITHER SIDE AND A W IND SCREEN GOING AROUND THE OUTSIDE OF IT. AND THESE ARE SOME OTHER POSITIONS IN THE CAR FARTHER BACK. I THINK THERE'S A NARROW DOOR -- TW O SETS OF DOORS IN THE CENTER AND SMALLER ONE THE IN THE REAR AND A SECOND SET OF DOUBLE DOORS IS OPPOSITE THE BICYCLE STORAGE SPACE SO THIS IS SHOW ING THE DOOR THAT IS NEXT TO THE BICYCLE SPACE AND IT DOES HAVE VERTICAL GRABS NEXT TO THE DOORS AND THE W IND SCREEN W ITH THE BAR THAT GOES AROUND IT. AND THIS IS THE BICYCLE PARKING SPACE. THE NEXT SLIDE. AND I THINK THE LAST SLIDE ON THE RIG HT IS I THINK THAT'S FAR DOOR THE CAR. AGAIN W ITH A WI ND SCREEN W ITH A BAR ON THE OUTSIDE. AND YOU CAN SEE VERTICAL BARS. THIS IS REALLY JUST TO SHOW THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT VARIATIONS AND I CAN'T REMEMBER -- THE LAST SLIDE I HAVE IS MILW AUKEE LIGHT RAI L. THEY USE THE SOMEW HAT SIMILAR THING OF A GLASS WI ND SCREEN W ITH VERTICAL BAR AROUND IT. AND YOU CAN SEE BARS, I DON'T KNOW -- AGAIN, PEOPLE WH O KNOW THIS INDUSTRY CAN HAVE -- HAVE ALL THE RIGHT TERMS BUT HIGH BARS NEAR THE CELLING TO COME DOW N W ITHSTRA PS SO THERE'S JUST A LOT OF PLACES FOR PEOPLE TO HANG ONTO

AND ALSO BARS ON THE BACKS OF THE SEATS IN THAT CAR NEXT TO THE WH EELCHAIR PARKING SPACE. SO I THINK THAT'S IT. JUST TO GIVE -- I MEAN THE MAIN PURPOSE OF MY SUBMITTING THIS WA S TO JUST SHOW THERE' S A LOT OF PLACES PUT POLES OR OTHER GRAB PLACES FOR PEOPLE TO STAND, HANG ONTO W HICH, YOU KNOW , CLEARLY IS NECESSARY IN SUBW AYS AND LIGHT RAILS AND STREET CARS BUT IT DOES SEEM LIKE THE NEW ER SYSTEMS ARE MOVING AW AY FROM HAVING FLOOR TO CEILING POLES. I H OPE THAT WA S HELPFUL AND NOT TOO BORING. SPEAKER: KEN THANK YOU THIS IS BLAIR. IT W AS HELPFUL AND I THINK IMPRESSIVE LOOKING AT SOME NEW ER VEHICLES THINKING IF YOU ARE GOING TO PUT A VERTICAL EXPANSION UP IT GOES TO THE FLOOR OR THE CEILING BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THE PROVIDERS AND THE MANUFACTURES HAVE DONE SOME PRETTY GOOD STUFF WI TH MANAGING THE BARS. AND I'M LOOKING AT SOME OF THESE THINGS GOING I WO ULDN'T MIND MOPPING THE FLOORS ON THESE CARS BECAUSE THEY'RE, YOU KNOW , EVERY TIME CAN AVOID SOMETHING GOING TO THE FLOOR IT IS ONE LESS SPOT FOR CRUD TO ACCUMULATE. SPEAKER: THAT'S THE REAL REASON WHY THEY DO THAT. SPEAKER: WE LL YOU KNOW -- THAT GETS BACK TO ONE OF THOSE UNPLANNED AND SOME CASES UNPLANNED AND UNINTENDED POSITIVE CONSEQUENCES OF IMPROVING ACC ESSIBLE AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT WA S EASIER TO CLEAN OR FOR ACCESSIBILITY AND ONE IS A FREEBEE SPEAKER: AND WH OEVER BEING BLAMED AT THE TIME TAKINGS THE CREDIT. SPEAKER: BLAIR THIS IS LINDA MARTIN. I JUST WA NT ED TO SAY I HOPE THINGS NEVER GET SO BAD AND AMTRAK YOU HAVE TO MOP THE FLOORS. THAT WA SN'T MY LEGAL OPINION. I JUST HAD TO SAY IT. THANK YOU. SPEAKER: THAT HURTS, LINDA. SPEAKER: I THOUGHT THIS W AS THE HOLIDAYS. W OW

.SPEAKER: WE W ERE ACTUALLY THINKING ABOUT GOING TO A FIRE HOSE AND

BEING DONE IT. SPEAKER: BLAIR KNOW S I LOVE HIM. SPEAKER: A LITTLE BLEACH A LITTLE FIRE HOSE GOES A LONG W AY SPEAKER: A COUPLE OF TRANSIT SYSTEMS TRIED THE HUGE HOSES BY THE DOORS. SPEAKER: KEN THANK YOU. IT DOES SHOW GOOD THINKING ARE THE PART OF THE MANUFACTU RING AND TRANSIT PROVIDERS. SO, I THINK UNLESS SOMEONE HAS A REALLY GOOD REASON W HY W E SHOULDN'T JUST STAY WI TH THE 44 INCH ACROSS, MY THINKING IS WE SHOULD TAKE THAT FORWA RD IS WH AT W E RECOMMEND TO THE FULL COMMITTEE. AND WE CAN -

- OBVIOUSLY SUGGEST THAT THE COMMITTEE LOOK FARTHER INTO IT OR I'M SORRY THE ACCESS BOARD LOOK FARTHER INTO IT AS SOME OF THESE THINGS ARE DEVELOPED AND TESTED BUY THINK TO PUT A ANYONE THE MAP AND MOVE FORWA RD W E WA NTTO GO W ITH THE 44 AND I W OULD GO BACK INTO NOTE B WH ERE I HAD WR ITTEN LAST TIME IT IS IN GREEN IF YOU CAN SEE THE COLOR, THE PATH DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A STRAIGHT LINE ACROSS THE DOOR

WAYS. I THINK W HAT WE W ANT TO SAY THE PATH SHOULD BE A STRAIGHT PATH ACROSS THE DOOR WA YS AND THAT ENSURES A LEVEL OF MOBILITY MAKING SURE WE DON'T GET THE BARRIERS IMPOSED INTO THE PATH BECAUSE AGAIN, IT IS EASIER HE MORE PRACTICAL FOR STANDEES TO MAKE AN TEMPT GETTING OUT OF THE WAY BUT THE VERTICAL EXPANSION CAN'T MOVE. SPEAKER: BLAIR THIS IS ANDRE. I GUESS THERE ARE TWO REQUIREMENTS HE RE. SO WE NEED A CLEAR PATH, CLEAR SPACE BETWE EN THE TWO DOORS? OF 44 INCHES? BUT WE ALSO NEED A CLEAR PATH TO THE ACCESSIBLE SPACE. THAT'S TWO DIFFERENT THINGS TO ME. BLAIR: YES. SPEAKER: SO THESE W OULD BE TW O DIFFERENT REQUIREMENTS THEY WO ULD HAVE TO BE STATED SEPARATELY. I SA W THE CLEAR PATH SOMEW HERE IN THE TEXT AND I UNDERSTAND IT W OULD BE REPLACED BYTHIS SPACE OF 44 INCHES BUT WE NEED TO KEEP THE CLEAR PATH AS W ELL.

SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS. YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE CLEAR PATH OBVIOUSLY FROM THE ACCESSIBLE DOOR INTO THE ACCESSIBLE SPACE. AND THEN IN ADDITION TO THIS BECAUSE WE HAVE DOORS ON BOTH SIDES OF LEAST MOST METRO CARS YOU GO FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER STRAIGHT ACROSS YOU W ANT TO MAKE SURE THERE IS A CLEAR PATH. THE PATH TO THE WH EELCHAIR S PACE HAS NEVER BEEN IN CONTENTION. THE CONTENTION IS W HE RE HE DON'T NEED THE PATH ACROSS AND REMEMBER WH AT W E RECOMMEND, W HAT THE COMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THE FULL COMMITTEE OR WH ATEVER RECOMMENDS TO THE BOARD W ILL BE SUBJECT TO COMMENTS SO IF THERE ARE AGENCI ES LIKE BART W HO HAVE OBJECTIONS TO THAT THEY CAN COMMENT AT THE COMMENT PERIOD AND TRY TO GET SOMETHING CHANGED MORE TO THEIR LIKING SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM DIRECTLY. SPEAKER: THIS IS BOB. ONE THING -- I'M A LITTLE BIT CONFUSED HERE. MOS T SUBW AY CARS AND MOST RAIL CARS HAVE THE DOORS OPPOSITE EACH OTHER AND THAT WOULD BE DIRECT ACROSS BUT THERE ARE SOME OLDER CARS I REMEMBER AND I THINK THERE ARE NEW ONE AND THE DOORS ARE OFFSET. SO THERE W OULD BE, IT WO ULDN'T BE POSSIBLE TO GO DIRECTLY A CROSS THE CAR. SO I W ONDER HOW THIS W OULD AFFECT THAT SPEAKER: DENNIS: W HEN W E SAID THE DOORS ARE OPPOSITE THERE HAS TO BE A CLEAR PATH. THE OTHER ISSUE THERE STILL NEEDS TO BE A CLEAR PATH FROM ONE TO THE OTHER BUT THEY W ILL NEED TO BE ANGLED. SPEAKER: THIS IS ROBERT CARSON. HOW MANY NEW DESIGNS USE AN OFFSET DOORS SPEAKER: I THINK I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER W HICH ONE I JUST SAW THAT'S STILL IN THE DESIGN THEY W ERE LOOKING AT THAT. SPEAKER: OKAY. THIS IS BLAIR. I'M JUST LOOKING BACK AT 6 A AND IT DOESN'T QUITE DO THAT BUT -- I WI LL PUT SOMETHING IN ON NUMBER 6 TO TRY TO CAPTURE THAT BUT ACTUALLY YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY DIMENSIONTHAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A PATH WAY THAT'S LESS THAN 32.

SPEAKER: RIGHT. SPEAKER: BLAIR: OKAY. LET ME -- YOU KNOW -- GOSH. I CAN'T IMA GINE WH Y IN A VEHICLE THAT'S GOT A LOT OF TURNOVER W HY YOU W OULD BUILD IT WI TH THE DOORS OFFSET. I'M SURE -- SPEAKER: TOWA RDS THE FRONT OF THE CAR -- GOING BOTH DIRECTIONS. BLAIR: YEAH. ANY

WAY -- LET ME LOOK AT THIS AND DIGEST AND I W ILL SEE IF I CAN W R ITE SOMETHING ABOUT DOORS THAT ARE OFFSET. BUT MY CONCERN IS IF YOU HAVE A CAR THAT SET UP W HERE THE DOORS ARE, IF THE ACCESSIBLE SPACE IS ACCESSIBLE TO THE DOORS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CAR BUT THE DOORS THEMSELVES ARE NOT OPPOSITE OF ONE ANOTHER BUT THEY AR E DIAGONAL ON THE SPACE, YOU COULD HAVE KIND OF A FUSSY SITUATION THERE ARE COMING ON BOARD AND THEN MANEUVERING DOWN ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE DOOR OR, AND I MAKE IT ASSUMPTION VEHICLES SET THAT UP WAY WO ULD ALWA YS HAVE A CONDITION WH ERE YOU, YOU COULD BOARD O N ONE SIDE AND DETRAIN FROM THE OTHER. YOU W OULDN'T HAVE A SINGLE SIDE BOARDING AND DETRAINING CONDITIONS. OKAY. LET ME SEE IF I CAN PUT SOMETHING AROUND THAT. SPEAKER: YOU W OULDN'T PUT A DOOR ON THE OTHER SIDE IF IT WA SN'T USEFUL. BLAIR: WE LL YES. I W AS TRYING TO THINK HOW YOU MIGHT DO THAT. IF THE DOORWAYS ARE NOT DIRECT EOPPOSITE BUT IF YOU DRAW ARECTANGLE AND THAT'S THE ACCESSIBLE SEATING SPACE AND ONE DOOR IS ONE EXTREME AND DIAGONALLY ACROSS IT IS THE OTHER EXTREME YOU HAVE MANEUVER COMING ON AND GOING OFF THE OTHER SIDE WI THOUT GETTING TANGLED UP IN THERE. SO, I DON'T KNOW IN THAT CONDITION IS 32 IS -- LET ME W RITE SOMETHING UP AND -- I W ILL PUSH IT BACK OUT BUT I WANT TO WRAP THIS THING UP. ITEM 6 I GOT TO GO BACK THROUGH AND CLEAN THE OUT FROM ALL THE VARIOUS DIFFERENT COLORS AND NOTES THAT I'VE MADE AND I W ILL WR ITESOMETHING UP ON THAT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT POPPED NOW THE

LOOKING AT THE PRESENTATIONS, BOTH THE INFORMATION FROM LONG ISLAND AND THE INFORMATION KEN GATHERED W AS THAT IN NOTE 6 C WH ERE IT TALKED ABOUT HAND HOLDS PROVIDED ADJACENT AND VERTICAL HAND HOLDS INTENDED AS BOARDING AIDS HAVING THOSE TERMINATE NO MORE THAN 34 INCHES FROM THE FLOOR. I THINK THAT'S A W INNER. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY IF W E NEED TO GO ANY -- WI TH THOSE KIN D MUCH STATEMENTS IN AREAS CONSIDERED ACCESS PORTION OF THE VEHICLE. IT LOOKED LIKE SOME OF THE THESE AUTHORITIES HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB HAVING THE BARS FOLDED TO THE SEATS AND THAT SO YOU ARE NOT TAKING EXPANSION ALL THE THE WAY TO THE FLOOR BUT THEY SEEM T O BE DOING IT EVERY

WH ERE. SO I DON'T KNOW IF WE W ANT TO -- I W AS ADDING A NOTE IN THERE ABOUT WH ENEVER PRACTICAL OR NOT STRUCTURALLY AND FEASIBLE HAVING THE VERTICALS TERMINATE OVERLAP FOR THINGS LIKE THAT. SO -- SPEAKER: THE EQUIVALENT TO FACILITATION SE CT ION OF THE CODE. BLAIR: ALL RIGHT. I DON'T WANT TO MUDDY THE W ATERS. I W ILL GO BACK AND CLEAN THIS OUT AND GET IT SO -- IF THERE'S NO MORE COMMENTARY ON THAT ITEM W E'LL MOVE ON. SPEAKER: I HAVE A QUESTION ON 6 C IN THE VERTICAL HAND HOLD REQUIREMENTS NO LONGER THAN 34 INCHES. W HY IS THAT NECESSARY? SPEAKER: OKAY. IS THIS FRANK? HERE W AS THE REASONING FOR IT AND LOOK AT YOUR 7 CARS AND EVEN YOUR M 3S, YOU ALREADY HAVE DONE IT. THE IDEA WA S THAT YOU MAY NEED THE HAND HOLDS BY THE DOOR TO HELP YOU BOAR D BUT THEY MAY PROJECT INTO THE DOORWA Y OF YOUR CAR. BUT THERE'S NO NEED FOR THEM TO GO BLOW 34 INCHES AND THE MAGIC OF THAT IF THEY PROJECT INTO THE DOORW AY THEY DON'T GET IN THE WAY OF SOMEONE COMING PAST THEM IN A W HE ELCHAIR. SPEAKER: YEAH. IF YOU LOO KED ON THE ONES ADJACENT THE DOOR. THERE ARE HAND HOLDS LOUDER DOW N THERE. THEY ARE NOT IN THE CLEAR PATH. I'M TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WH Y THEY NEED TO TERMINATE 32 INCHES ABOVE THE FLOOR -- 34 INCHES.BLAIR: BARE WI TH ME JUST A MINUTE WHILE I GET THOSE BAC K IN FRONT OF

ME HERE. SPEAKER: THIS IS ANDREA. SOMETIMES THOSE HANDS HOLDS W HICH ARE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT IN A FEW MINUTES ARE USED FROM BOARDING FROM THE RAIL LEVEL. SPEAKER: THAT'S WHAT I WA S GETTING TO. BLAIR: FRANK -- I'M LOOKING AT ON -- IS I T ON THE M 7S OR -- SPEAKER: IT IS BOTH. BOTH THE M 7'S AND C 3'S HAVE THAT VERTICAL HAND HOLD ADJACENT TO THE POST WH ERE YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE GROUND FROM BOARDING AND EXTENDS JUST ABOUT DOWN TO THE FLOOR. BLAIR: RIGHT ABOUT IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT EXTENDS INTO THE DOOR OPENING. SPEAKER: NO IT DOESN'T. IT DOESN'T EXTENDS ALL THE WAY. SPEAKER: THAT WAS THE IDEA. IT LOOKS LIKE YOU GUYS HAVE TUCKED THOSE A

WAY AND YOU CAN STILL REACH THEM. IF THEY WE RE NOT IN THE OBVIOUS DOOR OPENING PATH W HEN YOU CO ME INTO THE CAR, YOU ARE OKAY. AND I WI LL CLEAN THAT UP IF YOU THINK IT NEEDS TO BE BETTER DEFINED BUT THE IDEA W AS BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT IT BEFORE, THERE'S SOME SITUATIONS WH ERE LET'S SAY THE DOOR OPENS UP TO 50 INCHES OR 60 INCHES W IDE. YOU MAY HAVE LO OKING PURELY FROM THE OUTSIDE OF THE CAR YOU MAY HAVE A VERTICAL PAN HOLD THAT ACTUALLY IS INSIDE OF THAT 60 INCH DIMENSION AND THE THINKING WAS THAT MAYBE -

- THAT MAYBE VERY PRACTICAL FOR PEOPLE BOARDING. AND IF YOU HAVE THAT, THOUGH, FOR BOARDING, THAT I T NEEDS TO TERMINATE BEFORE 34 INCHES. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T BE FULLY THE WI DT H OF THE DOOR. I WI LL TOUCH THAT THAT.SPEAKER: I UNDERSTAND WH AT YOU ARE SAYING. IF YOU HAVE -- WH AT 42

INCH CLEAR OPENING IF YOU HAVE A 42 INCH CLEAR OPEN W HY DOES IT REA LLY MATTER IF THERE IS A FLOOR TO CEILING POST SAY YOU HAVE A 60 INCH DOOR OPENING AND W HY WO ULD IT MATTER IF YOU HAD A VERTICAL HAND HOLD OUTSIDE OF THE 42 INCH AREA? SPEAKER: IF THERE WAS A MODEST TEA PANEL? SPEAKER: I'M NOT SAYING YOU ARE NECESSARIL Y GOING TO DO IT. I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A 42 INCH CLEAR OPENING W HY DOES IT MATTER IF YOU HAVE 44 -- I'M NOT SAYING THERE MAYBE A USE FOR IT. TO REQUIRE IT NOT BE THERE IT SEEMS UNNECESSARY. BLAIR: YEAH. I THINK -- IF YOU HAVE W HATEVE R THE DOOR W IDTH IS TO THE FRACTURE YA'LL POST 50, 60 W HATEVER IT IS AND OFFHAND HOLD INSIDE THAT AND IT GOES ALL THE WA Y TO THE FLOOR. YES W HEN YOU MEASURE BETW EEN THOSE YOU STILL DO HAVE A GOOD ACCOMMODATION. BUT WH EN PEOPLE ARE -- THE THINKING AS I UND ERSTAND, W HEN PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO BOARD AND THEY'RE COMING ON 2 BY 2 OR 4 BY 4 DEPENDING ON HOW THICK A HERD THEY ARE IN, IF YOU ARE COMING IN ON A WH EELCHAIR IS THAT BAR THAT'S THERE TO HELP PEOPLE BOARD THE TRAIN OR GET OFF, IF IT DOESN'T GO ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR THEN YOU JUST GOT THAT MUCH MORE W IDTH TO HELP PEOPLE COME ON AND OFF THE TRAIN. I SEE WH ERE YOUR CONCERN IS. BUT I THINK, TOO, WE HAVE SEEN GOOD EXAMPLES OF W HERE THAT'S BEEN MANAGED QUITE WELL. BUT THAT W AS THE DRIVER. W AS THAT YOU KNOW YO U MAXIMIZE THAT DOOR W IDTH FOR BOARDING AND THE LIKE. SPEAKER: THIS JUST ACTUALLY BROUGHT UP A THING TO THE METRO CARS IN CHICAGO THE GALLERY CARS THEY ARE W IDE WI TH A POLE IN THE CENTER. THE CARS ARE ACCESSIBLE BUT THERE IS A WI DE ENOUGH OPENING. SPEA KER: THE DOORS IN CHICAGO ARE 79 INCHES WI DE. SPEAKER: RIGHT THOSE ARE HUGE OPENINGS.SPEAKER: AND WE HAVE POLES THAT RUN DOW N THE CENTER OF THAT THAT

OPEN BUT WE -- WE ONLY GOT ONE LINE IN CHICAGO THAT IS LEVEL BOARDING. THERE IS NO LEVEL BOARDING ON 90 PERCENT OF OUR LINES. BLAIR: HOW DO YOU MANAGE WH EELCHAIR ON THE STEP UP SITUATION? SPEAKER: EACH CAR'S EQUIPPED W ITH ADA CAR W AS LIFTS THAT COME OUT AND SIT FLUSH TO THE GROUND W ITH LIFT THAT OPENS UP TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE IN THEIR SECURE AND RAISE THEM UP LEVEL INTO THE CAR AND ALLOW THEM ACCESS INTO THE CAR BODY ITSELF. BLAIR: OKAY. WO ULD THAT DOOR WAY BE THE SAME IN THE OTHER POSITIONS OR IS IT DIFFERENT? SPEAKER: THE POLE IS OFFSET. ONE SIDE IS WI DER THAN THE OTHER. SPEAKER: RIGHT. FOR THE ADA WH ATEVER SIDE THE LIFT IS ON. SO IF THE LIFT IS ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE CAR THAT'S SIDE IS WI DER TO ALLOW ACCESS TO THAT VEHICLE. CAN YOU ASK THAT QUESTION ONE MORE TIME PLEASE BLAIR. BLAIR: YEAH. IF THE PHYSICAL DOORWA Y IN THE CAR IS THE SAME REGARDLESS OF WHETHER IT IS ACCESSIBLE DOOR W E OR NOT WH AT CHANGES IS THE POSITION OF THE STANSIONS FOR THE POLES IN THAT AREA. SPEAKER: YEAH. BLAIR: OKAY. HUM -- WE LL -- SPEAKER: THE 79 INCH DOORWAY? SPEAKER: RIGHT.SPEAKER: IN MOST CARS THE POLE IS LIKE 40 INCHES RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

ON THE CAR WH ERE THE LIFT IS THE POLE IS OFFSET SO ONE SIDE IS LIKE 48 INCHES -- SPEAKER: CORRECT -- RIGHT. YEAP. BLAIR: ALL RIGHT. SPEAKER: DO HAVE PHOTOS OF THAT, TOO. BLAIR: YOU GET AROUND DON'T YOU. SPEAKER: I TRY. SPEAKER: HE DOES. I KNOW YOU WE RE TRYING TO MAKE IT THE LAST THING BLAIR AND WE KEEP GOING BUT THE, I THINK THE POINT DENNIS MADE MAYBE MARSHA -- I'M NOT SURE IT GOT PUT IN THE W RITE UP I DON'T KNOW MAYBE THIS IS REDUNDANT BUT THE THING A BOUT HAVING LIKE IT IS OKAY TO HAVE A POLE A WALL MOUNTED POLE. YOU CAN REACH IN AS YOU ARE COMING INTO THE CAR. DENNIS SAID THIS EARLIER. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING YOU CAN DO IN LIEU OF BLOCK ACCESS W ITH POLES AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS IN W RITE UP OR IF IT SHOULD BE. SPEAKER: I THINK WHAT FRANK WA S SAYING AND W HAT YOU ARE SAYING ARE IN LINE. IF YOU -- UNDERSTANDING W HAT METRO HAS, THEY HAVE A HUGE W IDE 79 INCH DOOR. YOU W OULD HAVE TO SAY W HAT DIFFERENCE WO ULD IT MAKE IF THERE W AS A YOU KNOW A GRAB IRON FOR BOARD THAT'S WE NT ALL THE WAY T O THE FLOOR AND USED ALSO FOR PEOPLE COMES UP FROM THE GROUND FROM A STEP SITUATION OR W HATEVER. I PUT THAT IN THERE ABOUT THE -- THE VERTICAL BAR NOT COMING ANY CLOSER AT THE DOORWAY TO THE FLOOR THAN 34 INCHES WA S TO MAXIMIZE THE FULL WI DT H OF THE DOORWAY COMING ON FOR SOMEONE IN A W HEELCHAIR. ON A UNDERSTAND W HAT FRANK'S SAYING AND MAYBE YOU NEED TO HAVE CAVEATS BASED ON THE OVER ALL WI DT HT H DOOR BUT IT SEEMS LIKE BASED ON WH AT I HAD SEEN IN THE LONG ISLAND P HOTOGRAPHS AND THE INFORMATION KEN HAD THAT SEEMS TO BE A W ORKABLE SITUATIONGENERALLY AND ALREADY IN USE IN SOME PLACES.

SO, LET ME -- SPEAKER: WR ITING IT UP, IT JUST HAS TO HAVE X CLEAR W IDTH OVER THE POLES AND THE POLES WO ULD NOT BE COUNTED IN THE WI D TH. BLAIR: YEAH. PART OF THE PROBLEM WAS THAT WE W ANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU HAD A SITUATION W HERE YOU HAD A CAR THAT DIDN'T HAVE HUGE W IDE DOORS THAT YOU W OULDN'T PRECLUDE HAVING VERTICAL HAND HOLDS BECAUSE THEY SORT OF STUCK INTO THE CLEAR PATH. M AYBE IT WO ULD MAKE SENSE IF I WR OTE THAT SO THAT IT ADDRESSED IT SO IT HAS THAT INCLUSION AND WE SHOULD TERMINATE BEFORE OR AT 34 INCHES ABOVE THE FLOOR AND FOR THE REALLY HUGE DOORS IT SORT OF -- IT IS LESS OF AN ISSUE BECAUSE YOU COULD DRIVE A TRUCK THRO UGH THE DOORWAY SPEAKER: I DON'T SEE IT MAKES MUCH DIFFERENCE IF YOU CLAIM 44 INCH CLEAR AND YOU DON'T HAVE IT THEY RECESS THE DOOR HANDLES OR WH ATEVER. LEAVE IT UP TO THE BUILDER. BLAIR. WH AT YOU ARE SEEING THERE SEEMS TO BE RECESSION OR TERMINATING THE M. FRANK'S QUESTION W AS LOGICAL BUT W E CAN'T PREDICT IF THERE W AS A SITUATION WHERE IT MAKES SENSE FOR THE BAR TO GO ALL THE WA

Y TO THE FLOOR. W HICH IS ABSOLUTELY A LEGITIMATE QUESTION. ALL RIGHT. W ELL -- LET ME ASK THE QUESTION OF THE ACCESS BOARD. ARE W E ABLE TO WR ITE IN THINGS THAT ARE DESIGNED RECOMMENDATIONS? SO FOR EXAMPLE W HENEVER PRACTICAL OR NOT STRUCTURALLY PROHIBITIVE THAT THINGS ARE DONE A CERTAIN WA Y? SPEAKER: THIS IS MARSHA . THERE'S NO REASON YOU CAN'T INCLUDE THOSE SUGGESTIONS. BLAIR: I W ILL DOCTOR THAT. SO THAT IT IS W RITTEN UP THAT W AY. IT COULD BE PERFECTLY LOGICAL SITUATION AND SOME OF THESE REALLY W IDE DOORS W HY I W ANT THE POST TO GO ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR AND WO ULD IT HAVE NO PROHIBITION AS FAR AS GETTING ON THE CAR. BUT FROM A DESIGN STANDPOINT, YOU KNOW, THE MORE YOU CAN A VOID THE BETTEROFF YOU ARE.

SPEAKER: GENERALLY SPEAKING -- SPEAKER: ONE LAST THING TO CLEAN AROUND W ITH THE MOP. SPEAKER: I'M JUST SAYING FROM YOU KNOW A FUNCTIONAL STANDPOINT THE IMPORTANT THING IS THE 44 INCHES. AS LONG AS YOU ACHIEVE THAT I DON'T SEE WH ERE YOU HAVE TO POE HIB IT THEM FROM GOING THE FLOOR. THERE MAYBE THINGS W E'RE OVER LOOK THAT'S WO ULD SUGGEST IT IS A GOOD IDEA SO WH Y POE HINT SOMETHING THAT'S NECESSARY. SPEAKER: BLAIR: IF I TALK THAT TO THE 44 INCH W IDTH, COULD YOU HAVE DOOR OPENING CONDITION THAT'S ARE NARROW ER THAN THE 44 INCHES BUT IF I TIE THAT TO THE ONCE YOU ARE INSIDE THE DOOR ONCE YOU BREAK THE PLANE OF THE DOOR THE 44 INCHES BEGINS AND THAT INCLUDE THE HAND RAILS, TH AT W OULD NOT PRECLUDE SOMEONE FROM HAVING A, -- OF IMPACTING OR ENCROACHING ON THE 44 INCHES ABOVE THE 34 INCHES AND STILL HAVE THEIR HAND HOLDS. SPEAKER: THAT'S EXACTLY IT. THAT'S W HAT I WA S GETTING AT THANK YOU. BLAIR: ALL RIGHT. I W ILL W RITE THAT IN THERE. SO THAT IT MAKES SENSE. OKAY. SPEAKER: THIS IS AT THE SIDE OF THE DOOR. NOT IN THE MIDDLE. BLAIR: YES MARILYN. SAY YOU HAD FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, A DOORWAY THAT W AS AT THE LEGAL MINIMUM, AND YOU COME ON BOARD AND THAT'S, THAT DOORWAY IS LESS TH AN 44 INCHES BUT W E'RE SAYING W E DON'T W ANT ANY OBSTRUCTIONS FROM THAT DOOR PLANE ALL THE WAY TO THE OTHER DOOR PLANE. WE DON'T WA NT ANYTHING INSIDE 44 INCHES BUT THERE MAYBE A NEED FOR A HAND HOLD JUST INSIDE THE DOOR. W ELL OKAY. YOU CAN HAVE YOUR HAND HOLD BUT IT CAN'T COME ANY CLOSER THAN 34 INCHES FROM THE FLOOR RIGHT BY THE DOOR. SO YOU ARE NOT INHIBITING YOUR MOVEMENT BY PUTTING SOMETHING THAT'S PROJECTINGINTO THE CLEAR SPACE. BUT YEAH --

SPEAKER: BLAIR: THIS IS AN AMTRAK THINGS L. YOU W ILL HAVE GRAB RAILS ON THE UNDERSIDE OF THE TRAPS YOU HAVE THE CLEAR OPENING. YOU OPEN THE TRAP YOU DON'T HAVE THE CLEAR OPENING BECAUSE THE HAND RAILS STICK INTO IT. BLAIR: BUT THAT IS LESS AN ISSUE YOU ARE NOT GOING THROUGH THAT SPACE ON A W HEELCHAIR, EITHER. I THINK I CAN W RITE THIS UP SO IT CAN SOLVE THE PROBLEM AND THE CONCERNS AND STILL KEEP US W ITH THE IDEA OF HAVING THAT 44 INCH CLEAR SPACE ACROSS THE VEHICLE. SO -- OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO THAT LEAVES US AT -- I DID MAKE -- I ADDED HISTORICAL OR HERITAGE VEH ICLES TO NOTE NUMBER 9 THAT TOOK A WAY THE REPLICA CONCEPT. SPEAKER: THAT WO RKS MUCH BETTER. BLAIR: AND I HAVE A NOTE IN THERE THAT BECAUSE THERE W AS A QUESTION ABOUT CAPACITY, AND SO I ADDED A NOTE THAT SAYS INDUSTRY COMMENT ARE QUESTIONED TO GENERATE A VALID CAPACITY THIS SHOULD INCLUDE RECOMMENDATION FOX LOADING SUCH AS NORMAL CRUSH LOADING ETC.. WE W ERE TRYING TO COME UP WI TH A QUALIFIER FOR THOSE CARS THOSE REPLICA AND REHABILITATION CAR OR HERITAGE CARS SO IF THAT'S OKAY WE 'LL LEAVE THAT THE W AY IT IS. ALSO IN NOTE 20, I ADDED A NOTE THAT I PUT IN THE OVERLAP NUMBERS FOR SERVICE ANIMAL SPACE. AND I ADDED A NOTE THAT THIS SHOULD BE REVIEW ED PHYSICALLY TO MAKE SURE THE MEASUREMENTS ARE APPROPRIATE. TO MAKE SURE THE SPACE IS COMFORTABLE AND SAVE FOR T HE ANIMAL AND PASSENGER LIKE W ISE IF IS SPACE IS OVER SIZE OVERLAP MIGHT BE INCREASED. SO, EVERYONE OKAY W ITH THAT? THAT CONCEPT? SPEAKER: SOUNDS GOOD TO ME. SPEAKER: SERVICE HORSES.SPEAKER: SERVICE HORSES? YEAH -- THEY DON'T -- THEY DON'T CRUNCH UP

AS NICELY AS DOGS. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THAT'S -- EVERYTHING THAT I'VE GOT FROM THE MATRIX AND THE NOTES GO W ITH IT. ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING THEY WANT TO ADD OR DISCUSSION. WE HAVE A LITTLE MORE -- MAYBE W E'VE GOT 16 MINUTES, 18 MINUTERS SPEAKER: ON THE MATR IX OR EVERYTHING? SPEAKER: BLAIR: EITHER OR. SPEAKER: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GOT MY E FLAIL WH EN I WAS IN HOUSTON. I SPOKE TO REPRESENTS ABOUT ACCESSING TO THE SECOND LEVEL AND CAS DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE THERE. ONE BACKED OFF AND SEEMS LIKE THEIR ANNOUNCEMENT YESTERDAY THEY W ERE NOT GOING TO BUILD ON AMTRAK ANYMORE. AT LEAST THE HIGH SPEED. BOMBARDIA SAID DIFFERENTS ADVANCE NOTICE. IT WA S SUPPOSED TO COME OUT IN 2017 AND COMPLY BY 20 20 THAT WA S GREAT. THATS FROM BOPBARDIA. ALSO SEE MANS HAD THEIR HIGH SPEED CAR MOCK UP THERE. THEY HAD REALLY NICE BETWEEN SEAT TABLES. AND THE ENGINEER W AS THERE. I SAID DO YOU THINK YOU COULD DO THOSE WITHOUT THE LEGS AND STILL COMPLY. HE THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND HE SAID SURE. I THINK W E CAN DO IT. BECAUSE THOSE WERE TWO THINGS I W ANTED TO BRING UP BECAUSE W E DISCUSSED THEM BEFORE SPEAKER: YOU MUST HAVE BEEN TALKING TO THE SALESMAN SPEAKER: THE WAY HE ROLLED HIS EYES BACK IN HIS HAND I THINK HE WA S GETTING THE PLANS IN HIS MIND SPEAKER: THE MOST DANGEROUS CREATURE IS THE SALES ENGINEER. SPEAKER: STAY A

WAY FROM THOSE GUYS. THEY PROMISE YOU EVERYTHING AND PRODUCE NOTHING.BLAIR: THAT'S W HAT THEY MAKE CHANGE ORDERED AND NONCOMPLIANCE.

OKAY. BACK TO THE -- BOB THANKS FOR THAT. THAT GIVES US SOME HOPE. SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS: ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WE RE GOING TO LOOK AT BOB IS THE CLEARANCE UNDER THE SEATS. W HAT WA S THE ANSW ER ON THAT? SPEAKER: SHOOT. I HAVE TO LOOK AT MY NOTES. I DID MEASURE A FE W OF THEM. I CAN'T REMEMBER OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD. THEY -- SPEAKER: WE SET THE VERTICAL THING AT 12 INCHES AND THE QUESTION WA S YOU KNOW, -- SEATS DO THAT AS OPPOSED TO 11. SPEAKER: THEY W ERE ALL OVER 12 INCHES. SPEAKER: OKAY. SPEAKER: I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING ANY UNDERSTAND 12. MOST OF THEM WE RE UP 20, 24 OR, NOT 24 -- BUT THEY ARE MAKING THEM THINNER THESE DAYS. SPEAKER: THIS IS THE CLEARANCE UNDERNEATH. SPEAKER: RIGHT F. THEY MAKE THE CUSHION THINNER THEY STILL HAVE THE TOP OF THE SEAT AT THE SAME PLACE. SPEAKER: OKAY. SPEAKER: AND THEY ARE ALMOST ALL W ALL MOUNTED NOW

. SPEAKER: THE ONLY PROBLEM IF YOU ARE ON A TRANSIT SYSTEM WH ERE YOUR TRIP TIME IS RELATIVELY SHORT, UNDER AN HOUR KIND OF THING, YOU CAN GET BY W ITH A LOT LESS COMFORTABLE SEATS. OUT ON THE ROAD FORTHREE DAYS THAT CUSHION COULD BECOME A BIGGER ISSUE.

SPEAKER: THEY DIDN'T HAVE MUCH OF A DISPLAY THERE THIS YEAR. SPEAKER: THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE LOOKING FOR YOU. DID THEY EVER FIND YOU? BLAIR: I W ASN'T THERE. SPEAKER: PEOPLE SAID HAVE YOU SEEN THEM. SPEAKER: AS LONG AS THEY DIDN'T COUPLE THAT WI TH A NY EXPLETIVES YOU ARE OKAY. SPEAKER: NO COMMENT. SPEAKER: ANDREA. I HEARD THE 22 INCHES UNDER THE SEAT SPEAKER: NO THAT W AS THE TOP OF THE SEAT. I DIDN'T SEE ANY OF THEM WI TH LESS THAN 12 INCHES UNDER THE SEAT. SPEAKER: IF THERE WAS 20 INCHES THERE WO ULD BE A LOT OF DANGLING LEGS. OKAY. ANY OTHER THOUGHTS OR COMMENTS? BEFORE W E MOVE ON? SPEAKER: THIS IS FRANK. I HAD A QUESTION ON NOTE 5. QUANTITY OF SEATING BEING EASY REMOVABLE. THE QUESTION IS: W HERE ARE YOU GOING TO PUT THEM? YOU HAVE THIS LIFTE D NO COMMUTER RAIL TO, , DON'T YOU? AM I READING THE CHART CORRECTLY. IS THAT THE RECOMMENDATION OR IS IT THE RECOMMENDATION FOR THE COMMUTER RAIL?BLAIR: LET'S SEE -- YOU KNOW W HAT? I THINK I THINK NOTE 5 CREPT BACK UP

INTO COMMUTER. IT W AS SUPPOSED TO BE IN INTERCITY AND HIGH SPEED. SPEAKER: THIS IS DENNIS. THE ISSUE WAS IF YOU HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE IN CHAIRS LIKE WE DID W HEN W E W ENT ON OUR E CURINGS UP TO PENNSYLVANIA AND YOU W ANTED TO HAVE MORE THAN THE TWO SPACES YOU COULD HAVE A PARTY AREA, YOU W ANT TO BE ABLE TO REMOVE THE SEATS IT W OULD BE NICE TO REMOVE THE SEATS. THE ISSUE W OULD HAVE BEEN SIMILAR TO WHAT AMTRAK ALREADY DOES W ITH SPECIAL PARTIES AND WH ATEVER. THERE W OULD BE A COST THAT YOU COULD PAY ABOVE AND BEYOND THE FARE AND THAT WO ULD INVO LVE WH AT IT TAKES TO GET YOU THERE SO STAFF TIME AND W HATEVER TO REMOVE THE SEATS AND PRESUMABLY IF THE SEATING W ERE BEING LEFT AT THE STATION OF ORIGIN THERE WO ULD BE SOME STORAGE QUESTIONS SO ALL OF THESE THINGS WO ULD BE HANDLED W ITH W HATEVER THE FEE WA S CHARGED FOR THAT SERVICE. IF YOU W ERE GOING TO TAKE THE GROUP TO ONE PLACE AND THEY WE REN'T COMING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL DESTINATION YOU MIGHT PUT THE SEATS ON THE TRAIN IN THE BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT OR MAKE ARRANGEMENT IN ADVANCE TO HAVE SOME EXTRA SEATS AT THE DESTINATION. ALL OF THAT IS OPERATIONAL STUFF THAT THEY W ORK OUT. SPEAKER: YOU PUT IN A SEARCH OF THE SEAT TIE DOWN TRACKS. SPEAKER: THERE US A DISCREPANCY BETWE EN THE NOTES AND MATRIX. 5 AND 6 LOOK AT THE COLUMN NEXT TO IT THERE IS A REFERENCE TO NOTE 6 ABOUT MANEUVERING AND NOTE 6 OBVIOUSLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WI TH THAT. SO I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENED SOMEW HERE IN THERE, THERE WAS AN ADDITION OR DELETION THAT SCRAMBLED MY NOTES ON THE REFERENCE. 5 B AND C -- THERE IS NO B AND C. ON THERE. SO I THINK THE RE'S -- LET ME GO BACK AND DRESS THOSE UP. SPEAKER: YEAH YOU W ANT TO OFF ONE NUMBER OR SOMETHING. SPEAKER: NOW TH IS IS A VERY GOOD CHART AND YOU GET ONE LITTLE BOO BOO. JUST TO EXPRESS ANOTHER VIE W ON THIS. WE W ERE MAINLY THINKING OF AMTRAK ONLY BECAUSE -- TH ERE WAS THE WE LL MEANING BUT -- YOU KNOW , LIMITED IN VISION IN THE STATUTE ABOUT GROUPS. W E WE R E MORECONCERNING DISPERSION THAT GROUPS RIDING TOGETHER. BECAUSE OF

THAT, YES I THINK IT IS A GOOD NOTE THAT YOU HAVE. I'M NOT SURE TO WH AT EXTENT IT APPLIES TO OTHER KIND OF RAIL BESIDES AMTRAK. DENNIS AND OTHERS CAN COMMENT ON THAT. I THINK THAT THERE A RE -- I MEAN THESE ARE NOT SPELLED OUT ANY WH ERE AND I ALSO WA NTTO POINT OUT I KNOW THIS IS NOT AN EXPORT ISSUE BUT I HAVE BEEN TRAINING TO KEEP A LIST OF THINGS FOR THE DOJ AND I'M HOPING OR OWE EXCUSE ME DOT IN THIS CASE. AND I'M HOPING -- I DON'T KNOW I F IT WO ULD BE DEFINED BY A DOLLAR LIMIT OR WHAT BUT THERE SHOULD BE REASONABLE LIMITS ON THE AMOUNT THAT'S CHARGED BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE GETS TO BRING GROUPS ONTO THE TRAIN. IF W E CAN GET ENOUGH TICKETS THEY CAN BRING ALL THE PEOPLE THEY WANT AND W HY SHOU LD IT BE THE PEOPLE WI TH DISABILITIES CAN'T DO THAT. AND IF THERE'S A LEGITIMATE YOU KNOW CHALLENGE TO REMOVE SEATS WE LL IT IS OKAY BUT I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE HUGE -- WE SHOULD FIND A W AY TO. ME THAT IS CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE. SPEAKER: MARILYN THIS IS MA RSHA . YOU REMEMBER THE TRAIN THAT WE ALL ROAD ONTO GO TO PHILADELPHIA WHERE THEY REMOVED BUNCH OF SEATS? SPEAKER: RIGHT. SPEAKER: IT STRIKES ME THAT IS W HAT THE DOJ REGS WO ULD CALL A POLICY PRACTICE OR PROCEDURE DOES THIS DISCUSSION REALLY FALL INTO AN OPERATIONAL DISCUSSION? MORE SO THAT A DESIGN DISCUSSION? SPEAKER: IT IS OPERATIONAL AND THAT'S WH Y I W AS SAYING I KNOW IT IS NOT A -- SPEAKER: YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO REMOVE THE SEATS SPEAKER: I'M SORRY CAN ONLY HEAR ONE PERSON AT A TIME. MARILYN? S PEAKER: I AGREE THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE FOR THE BOARD BUT I'M HOPING WI TH THE FEDERAL AGENCY YOU KNOW OFTEN TO THE FUTURE DOES ADOPTTHIS THERE W ILL BE LIMITS -- AGAIN I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU ESTABLISH

THOSE LIMITS, TO DICTATE A DOLLAR AMOUNT ISN'T PRACTICAL BUT SOMEHOW THERE IS REASONABLE LIMITS ON W HAT CAN BE CHARGED. THE DISABILITY COMMUNITY FOUND THEY W ANT TO TRAVEL WITH THREE OR FOUR PEOPLE AND YOU ARE OFTEN SMALLER ORGANIZATIONS SMALL NONPROFITS CHARGED TWO THREE FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS JUST TO RIDE TOGETHER. SPEAKER: THAT SOUNDS LIKE IT DOES GO TO THE SURCHARGES PORTION OF THE REGULATIONS THAT WO ULD ADDRESS THIS IN THE CASE W HERE A MODIFICATION IS MADE TO A PROCEDURE. SPEAKER: THAT'S A GOOD POINT. AND THE DOJ RULE HAS BOTH THE SURCHARGE HAS BEEN AND THE MO DIFICATION OF POLICIES PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES. THE DOT RULE DOES HAVE THE SURCHARGES AND IS IN THE PROCESS IT APPEARS, OF ADDING THE REQUIREMENT TO MODIFY POLICIES PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES SO HOPEFULLY BY THE TIME THIS RULE ROLES AROUND WE 'LL HAVE BOTH A ND I THINK YOU ARE POINTING OUT THAT IT FITS IN WI TH THE PROTECTION ALREADY IN THE ADA IS AN EXCELLENT POINT. SPEAKER: THERE IS NO REASON YOU CAN'T IN YOUR REPORT, TIME PERMITTION, LIFT CONCERN THAT'S ARE OUTSIDE OUR PURVIEW BUT THAT SHOULDN'T YOUR PRIMA RY PURPOSE. BLAIR: I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT IT BE INCLUDED ON THE PHYSICAL SIDE OF THINGS. FOR EXAMPLE AND I W ILL BE QUICK ABOUT THIS W E GOT FOUR MINUTES LEFT AND W E'RE OFF. AT ONE TIME IT WAS COMMON TO BUY CARS WH ERE THE SEATS W ERE PHYSICALLY BOLTED ON THE FRAME OF THE CAR AND THERE WE RE OPTIONS THROUGHOUT YOU USE A SEAT TRACK OR WH ATEVER MA MAKES IT CONDUCIVE TO TAKING SEATS IN AND OUT FAIRLY QUICKLY. THERE IS A BENEFIT SO THAT IF A SEAT NEEDS TO BE REPAIRED YOU CAN TAKE IT OUT SO IT GETTING BACK TO THE WI N/ WI NS BUT WE THOUGHT IT WA S IMPORTANT TO PUT THAT IN THERE SO IT IS PART OF THE THOUGHT PROCESS AND DESIGN PROCESS THAT DOESN'T GET OVER LOOKED AND THAT MAKES THE DOLLARS AND CENTS ISSUES A LOT EASY TO MANAGER IF YOU ESTABLISHED THE PHYSICAL ABILITY TO MAKE THOSE CHANGES W ITHOUT THEM BEING DIFFICULT. SO -- IT HELPS -- IT HELPS ONBOTH SIDES. IF YOU ARE TAKE AWAY THE EXCUSES IT IS NOT SUCH A BIG

THING TO DO IT AND IT IS EASY TO DO, YOU KNOW , THE CLASSIC RAILROAD FOLKS WI LL DO IT AND NOT COMPLAIN SO M UCH. OKAY. GOING FOR

WARD. WE HAVE A CHALLENGE TO GET EVERYTHING THAT WE DISCUSSED THAT'S BEEN A PART OF THE MATRIX AND NOTES WR ITTEN UP SO IT IS PRESENTABLE AS A REPORT. I'M GOING TO ASK -- I KNOW I GOT TO GO BACK AND REVISIT THE VERTICAL REPORT OR PROPOS E AL AND THOOCH UP BASED ON EVERYONE'S COMMENTS FROM BEFORE. THE DATA IN THE MATRIX AND REPORT NEED PUT IN AS W EL L. I HAVE CLEAN UP TO DO BEFORE THAT CAN HAPPEN BUT ANY VOLUNTEERS W HO WO ULD LIKE TO TAKE THE CHALLENGE OF DRAFTING THE REPORT? I GUESS THAT M EANS THE FIRST DRAFT W ILL BE DONE BY BLAIR. AND W E WI LL GO FROM THERE. BUT -- SPEAKER: ALL OF US -- SPEAKER: I WI LL GIVE A HAND IF I CAN. BLAIR: WE LL OKAY. AND I KNOWTHE CHAIRS HAVE TO GET TOGETHER AND WO RK THROUGH SOME OF THESE THINGS AS WE LL. BUT IF FOLKS COULD THINK ABOUT THOSE THINGS I'M MORE THAN HAPPY -- THERE US A DEGREE OF LOGIC IN ME TAKING W HAT IS THERE AND W RAPPING IT INTO A REPORT SINCE I HAVE MY HEAD AROUND IT PRETTY W ELL BUT I WI LL NEED YOUR COMMENTARY AND GUIDANCE. ANYONE HAVE SAGE ADVIC E OR COMMENTS? YOU HAVE A MINUTE, I THINK. SPEAKER: I KNOWTHAT BLAIR WO RKED W ELL HARD BECAUSE HE W AS SENDING SOME OF THIS AGENDA STUFF AT 2 IN THE MORNING SO I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO HELP OUT. BLAIR: THING DO YOU AT THAT HOUR TENDING TO A LITTLE SQUARELY SPEAKER: YOU PRETTY MUCH GOT A FIRST DRAFT LARGELY. THE REVIEW PART IS EASIER I THINK YOU W ILL HAVE PLENTY OF REVIE WERS MAYBE MORE THAN YOU ARE HAPPY TO HAVE.BLAIR: OBVIOUSLY THE MATRIX HAS THINGS THAT ARE NOT RELEVANT TO

THE SCOPING. IT JUST HELPED U S SEE THINGS BUT I WI LL GO IN AND STRIP OUT THE ELEMENTS THAT ESTABLISH THE SCOPE AND THEN BACK FILL WI TH PRIMARILY W ITH W HAT'S IN THE NOTES. TO ESTABLISH THE REPORT. THAT'S MY THINKING THERE. SPEAKER: CAN THAT MATRIX BE PUT OUT? SPEAKER: BLAIR: I THIN K IT IS FROM WH AT WE GET TO THE ACCESS BOARD IT CAN BE VALUABLE TO HELP THEM AS A TOUCH STONE BUT THAT'S -- I DON'T KNOW SOMEONE FROM THE BOARD W OULD HAVE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION FOR THE RULE MAKING SIDE. SPEAKER: THE RULE HAS TO BE WR ITTEN IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER FORMAT SO THAT'S GOT SOME PARTICULARS BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO WO RRY ABOUT THAT AS LONG AS WE GIVE ALL THE INFORMATION TO THE BOARD THEY CAN USE TO PUT TOGETHER THAT ACTUAL REGULATORY DOCUMENT. BLAIR: I W ILL ASK OF THE BOARD AGAIN FROM AN EASE OF D EALING WI TH IT WH AT IS GOING TO BE EASIER FOR YOU TO W ADE THROUGH SPEAKER: MELISSA. I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING WE NEED TO GET TOGETHER TO DISCUSS SPEAKER: NOT NECESSARILY. THE BOTTOM LINE IS CLARITY. OKAY. IF YOU PUT A LOT OF W ORDS AROUND IT JUST TO, JUST FOR FORMAT'S SAKE DON'T DO THAT. W HAT IS ESSENTIAL IF YOUR W RITING STYLE MAKES BULLETS MORE COMFORTABLE FOR YOU TO USE, USE BULLETS. AND PLEASE DON'T KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF TO TRY TO WRITE IN A REGULATOR FORMAT. I DON'T KNOW AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE YET THAT'S DONE IT WE LL. WE DON'T WA NT YOU TO SPEND YOUR TIME DOING SOMETHING W E'RE GOING TO BE PUTTING -- USING A DIFFERENT -- SAYING IT IN A DIFFERENT W AY. BLAIR: WH AT IS THE TERM DENNIS IS USED? SPEAKER: AT THE BOARD W E TRY VERY HARD TO AVOID REGUBABBLE. SO OU RS ARE W RITTEN LIKE YOU SEE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR BUT IF YOU TRYTO MAKE IT READ MORE LIKE A NOVEL THERE IS MORE POTENTIAL FOR

CONFUSION. BLAIR: MY PUSH IS TO MAKE SURE I DON'T MISS ANYTHING AND NOT OVER BURDEN IT WI TH EX STRAIN JUST DISCRIMINATION. SPEAKER: PART OUR JOB IS GOING TO BE AS YOU W RITE THIS AS YOU START DOING DRAFTS W E'LL BE REVIE WI NG IT AND SAYING TO YOU W E'RE NOT CLEAR W HAT YOU MEAN HERE. BLAIR: OKAY. SPEAKER: AND WE 'LL BE COMING BACK TO YOU W ITH QUESTIONS BEFORE W E CLOSE THE BOOKS ON THIS W E'RE NOT GOING TO SIT BACK AND HAVE YOU PRESENT SOMETHING AND LATER SAY THEY DIDN'T WR ITE IN IT A WAY WE CAN UNDERSTAND. BLAIR: WE 'RE OFFICIALLY OVER OUR TIME LIMIT. FORTUNATE. SPEAKER: I WI SH EVERY A HAPPY HOLIDAY AND ALL OF THAT STUFF. SPEAKER: LIKE WI SE. THAT SO I GUESS W E'LL SEE EVERYONE ON THE 15TH OF JANUARY. ALL RIGHT. THAT I EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP AND YOUR DILIGENCE AND ATTENTION TO ALL OF THESE THINGS IT IS AW ESOME.