### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE** 

**+ + + + +**

**DISCUSSION OF VERIFICATION PROGRAMS FOR COMMERCIAL PACKAGED BOILERS**  **+ + + + + WEDNESDAY**  **AUGUST 14, 2013**

**+ + + + +**

**The Committee met in Conference Room 6075, 950 L'Enfant Plaza, at 9:00 a.m.,**  **Neil Eisner, Facilitator.**

**PRESENT: NEIL EISNER, Facilitator**  **LAURA BARHYDT, DOE General Counsel JOHN CYMBALSKY, DOE**  **JEREMIAH FREEMAN, New West Technologies EMILY MARCHETTI, Energetics** 

**PRESENT VIA WEBINAR:**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **KARIM AMRANE, AHRI TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice**  **LAURA DEGITZ, Navigant Consulting PAUL DOPPEL, Mitsubishi**  **SCOTT DURFEE, Nidec Motor Corporation GEOFFREY HALLEY, ABMA**  **TRAVIS HARDIN, UL RANDY HASEMAN, UL**  **DIANE JAKOBS, Rheem TOM JOHNSON, Daikin McQuay**  **JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar MICHAEL KOJAK, UL**  **JONATHAN LEMMOND, AHRI ARIS MARANTAN, Navigant Consulting**  **KAREN MEYERS, Rheem FRANK MYERS, PVI Industries**  **NEIL ROLPH, Lochinvar PHILLIP STEPHENS, HTP**  **JOHN SUTPHEN, Cleaver-Brooks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **(9:06 a.m.)** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Hello, everyone.** 

### 4 **This is Laura Barhydt with the U.S.** 

### 5 **Department of Energy.** 

### 6 **Thank you for participating today** 

### 7 **in the commercial HVAC negotiated rulemaking** 

### 8 **working group. Today we are going to talk** 

### 9 **some about boilers and some of the unique** 

### 10 **concerns that boiler manufacturers have.** 

### 11 **And I believe we have about 12** 

### 12 **people on the line. We are going to try** 

### 13 **unmuting you, so that everybody can speak** 

### 14 **freely. But if we end up having problems** 

### 15 **with a lot of background noise, we will have** 

### 16 **to mute everyone and you will have to raise** 

### 17 **your hand electronically to get your line** 

### 18 **unmuted.** 

### 19 **I do want to ask everyone to** 

### 20 **state their name before they speak. Our** 

### 21 **court reporters in this group have been** 

### 22 **phenomenal at recognizing voices, but -- you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 can't see this right now, but we do actually**  

### 2 **have somebody different. So you need to make** 

### 3 **sure you identify yourself before you speak.** 

### 4 **So I'm not exactly sure who all** 

### 5 **is on the line, but -- can you just read off** 

### 6 **the list?** 

### 7 **MS. MARCHETTI: Yes. We have** 

### 8 **Diane Jakobs, Frank Myers, Jeff Kleiss, John** 

### 9 **Sutphen, Jonathan Lemmond, Karen Meyers,** 

### 10 **Laura Degitz, Michael Kojak, Phillip** 

### 11 **Stephens, Randy Haseman, Travis Hardin. So** 

### 12 **13 folks.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Thirteen. Okay.** 

### 14 **So one of the concerns we have** 

### 15 **heard is that some of the larger boilers have** 

### 16 **issues with the current DOE test procedure,** 

### 17 **and we have talked about their ability to** 

### 18 **apply for a test procedure waiver. Are any** 

### 19 **of the manufacturers who feel like they have** 

### 20 **a problem with the current DOE test procedure** 

### 21 **on the line?** 

### 22 **MR. SUTPHEN: Yeah. This is John**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 Sutphen with Cleaver-Brooks.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Hello. So one of** 

### 3 **the things that we wanted to talk about today** 

### 4 **is DOE's current regulatory framework, and** 

### 5 **how a test procedure waiver fits into that** 

### 6 **framework, and how this rulemaking fits into** 

### 7 **that framework.** 

### 8 **So under DOE regulations, a** 

### 9 **manufacturer has to test each basic model** 

### 10 **using the DOE test procedure, and that** 

### 11 **testing is the basis of the representations** 

### 12 **and a certification of compliance. At the** 

### 13 **beginning of this working group, we** 

### 14 **negotiated a proposal for alternative** 

### 15 **efficiency determination methods.** 

### 16 **And as part of that, that** 

### 17 **actually reduces test burden by allowing** 

### 18 **manufacturers to do a reduced amount of** 

### 19 **testing and to use simulation methods to** 

### 20 **estimate the efficiency of different basic** 

### 21 **models that have not been tested.** 

### 22 **But the waiver is only -- DOE can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 only issue a waiver in certain circumstances,**  

### 2 **and that is where there is a design feature** 

### 3 **that is not accounted for by the test** 

### 4 **procedure. And I believe -- I ought to open** 

### 5 **up my reg book, but the language is something** 

### 6 **along the lines of "if the test procedure** 

### 7 **does not accurately reflect the performance** 

### 8 **of the product."** 

### 9 **And then the other circumstance** 

### 10 **where we can grant a waiver is if the test** 

### 11 **procedure just literally will not work for --** 

### 12 **on the product due to some, again, design** 

### 13 **feature that makes it impossible to conduct** 

### 14 **the test in accordance with the DOE test** 

### 15 **procedure.** 

### 16 **DOE cannot grant a test procedure** 

### 17 **waiver to reduce test burden. That is just** 

### 18 **not part of the legal framework for the** 

### 19 **Department to grant a test procedure waiver.** 

### 20 **The mechanism in our regs to reduce test** 

### 21 **burden is the alternative efficiency** 

### 22 **determination method, the AEDM.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 So to use an AEDM you have to**  

### 2 **have some testing that is done in accordance** 

### 3 **with either the DOE test procedure or a test** 

### 4 **procedure waiver granted by the Department.** 

### 5 **And, again, the test procedure waiver can** 

### 6 **only be granted where there is some design** 

### 7 **issue with the product that makes it either** 

### 8 **impossible to use the test procedure or that** 

### 9 **makes the test procedure generate a result** 

### 10 **that is not representative of the actual** 

### 11 **efficiency of the product.** 

### 12 **Does that all make sense?** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Laura, let me ask a** 

### 14 **question.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: This is Neil Eisner.** 

### 17 **The waiver is in the regulations or in the** 

### 18 **statute, I presume.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Is it possible to** 

### 21 **grant an exemption which under case law is** 

### 22 **available for unique situations not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 considered during the rulemaking?**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: So it depends on** 

### 3 **what you mean by "exemption"? So --** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: Okay. Exemption** 

### 5 **would be somewhat like a waiver. You could** 

### 6 **say, "We will not apply the rule to you" or** 

### 7 **"we will apply the rule to you with these** 

### 8 **specific conditions."** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: So the only** 

### 10 **exemption, if you want to use that word, that** 

### 11 **we have is the ability to come up with a** 

### 12 **different test procedure. There is no** 

### 13 **ability for us to waive testing altogether,** 

### 14 **and there is no ability for us to waive it --** 

### 15 **so I think what you're asking about is, if we** 

### 16 **didn't consider something in the rulemaking,** 

### 17 **is that a grounds to issue a waiver?** 

### 18 **And the Department's view is** 

### 19 **that, if it's something we didn't consider in** 

### 20 **the rulemaking, then the test procedure is** 

### 21 **either not going to work or it's going to** 

### 22 **generate a result that is not representative.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 MR. EISNER: So the bottom line**  

### 2 **for the boilers would be, is there another** 

### 3 **way to test, not in the rule, that will show** 

### 4 **the legitimate or the -- represent the actual** 

### 5 **efficiency of the system? Does anybody** 

### 6 **online have suggestions in that regard? Do** 

### 7 **you have alternative ways you would test for** 

### 8 **efficiency?** 

### 9 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John at** 

### 10 **Cleaver-Brooks. In our waiver submittal, we** 

### 11 **requested to use the PTC 4 method for** 

### 12 **efficiency determination. We feel that the** 

### 13 **BTS-2000 test doesn't adequately portray** 

### 14 **testing of low pressure steam boilers.** 

### 15 **And we also, in our waiver,** 

### 16 **requested that we test for both the hot water** 

### 17 **and the low pressure steam using high** 

### 18 **pressure steam test, and then doing a stack** 

### 19 **over-steam method to calculate the low** 

### 20 **pressure steam and the hot water efficiency** 

### 21 **numbers.** 

### 22 **It is done very -- using**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 conservative methods for calculation. And I**  

### 2 **believe we showed some examples in our** 

### 3 **request for waiver on how that would be done.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it sounds** 

### 5 **like you have submitted information, and I** 

### 6 **just wanted to make sure that the role of the** 

### 7 **waiver within our framework is clear. My** 

### 8 **understanding is that your segment of the** 

### 9 **industry has not been as active in a lot of** 

### 10 **the rulemakings, and so -- at least my** 

### 11 **perception is that you don't have the long** 

### 12 **history with the Department that some of the** 

### 13 **other manufacturers have.** 

### 14 **So I just want to make sure that** 

### 15 **how our regulatory framework works makes** 

### 16 **sense, because --** 

### 17 **MR. SUTPHEN: Okay.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: -- in part because** 

### 19 **some of the issues we are going to talk about** 

### 20 **today in verification, I want to make sure** 

### 21 **that how that fits into the other regulations** 

### 22 **is clear. Some of the emails we received**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 talked about certification testing, and I**  

### 2 **wanted to make sure that it's clear what the** 

### 3 **distinction is between certification testing** 

### 4 **and verification testing.** 

### 5 **So certification testing is that** 

### 6 **initial testing prior to distribution in** 

### 7 **commerce that is used to determine the** 

### 8 **compliance of the model. And that testing** 

### 9 **can either be testing of each basic model or** 

### 10 **it can be testing to establish an AEDM.** 

### 11 **That's the front end testing.** 

### 12 **The back end testing is the** 

### 13 **verification testing, and that is testing** 

### 14 **done on a long-term basis to check that the** 

### 15 **efficiency of the products is what** 

### 16 **manufacturers have certified. And some of** 

### 17 **the concerns that we heard previously from** 

### 18 **Jeff and Peter were that once there is a** 

### 19 **design there is no reason to think anything** 

### 20 **would change.** 

### 21 **And the Department's experience** 

### 22 **has been that a lot of times over time**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 manufacturing processes may change, suppliers**  

### 2 **may change. And I don't know how much this** 

### 3 **is applicable to your products, and so that's** 

### 4 **something I would like to hear more about.** 

### 5 **That in other products that we** 

### 6 **have seen there is often a change over time** 

### 7 **that may or may not be expected by the** 

### 8 **manufacturer, and so there is a real value to** 

### 9 **verification testing. And what we had heard** 

### 10 **previously from Jeff and Peter is that they** 

### 11 **didn't see the value.** 

### 12 **And so I would be interested in** 

### 13 **hearing more about how your manufacturing** 

### 14 **process works, how the design -- when the** 

### 15 **design is made relative to when products are** 

### 16 **built, whether or not a particular model is** 

### 17 **built over a long period of time, or whether** 

### 18 **it's literally just a one-time deal, that** 

### 19 **kind of thing.** 

### 20 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 21 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. All of our hot** 

### 22 **water and low pressure steam boilers are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 built to ASME Section 4 Code, so we have to**  

### 2 **follow a very strict guideline for how we** 

### 3 **build our pressure vessel. And the mode of** 

### 4 **calculating efficiency is just, you know, you** 

### 5 **heat the water and then you calculate how** 

### 6 **much water you heated or how much steam you** 

### 7 **make. It's purely based on the heat transfer** 

### 8 **area and the actual design of your boiler.** 

### 9 **We don't use any electrical** 

### 10 **consumption in these calculations. The BTS** 

### 11 **2000 doesn't use any electrical components.** 

### 12 **There's no motors in the calculation, so** 

### 13 **there is no supplier that would change, you** 

### 14 **know, the efficiency of their product that we** 

### 15 **would use to have any effect on our** 

### 16 **efficiency numbers.** 

### 17 **So once the boiler is designed** 

### 18 **and tested, that design -- forever, unless we** 

### 19 **do a major design change, but then there** 

### 20 **would be almost a different product, you** 

### 21 **know.** 

### 22 **So a boiler that was built in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 1950 will be exactly the same as the boiler**  

### 2 **that was built today, just because it has to** 

### 3 **be for that certain --** 

### 4 **MR. HALLEY: This is Geoff Halley** 

### 5 **with ABMA. Can everybody hear me?** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. HALLEY: Okay. I'd like to** 

### 8 **add a couple of things. He's right, the** 

### 9 **basic design of the heat exchanger, which is** 

### 10 **the big thing, you know, flint unleashes a** 

### 11 **flint unleashes -- but the basic design of a** 

### 12 **heat exchanger can last for years and years.** 

### 13 **And, for example, a company I worked for at** 

### 14 **one time, we designed a new line of boilers** 

### 15 **around 1969, and it has already met these** 

### 16 **minimum standards. In fact, it exceeded them** 

### 17 **at that point in time.** 

### 18 **And it has prevailed without** 

### 19 **change to the heat exchanger design right** 

### 20 **through until the company was purchased and** 

### 21 **shutdown. But so there is a long more** 

### 22 **longevity I think. They are bigger boilers,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 they take longer to develop, and they -- you**  

### 2 **know, there is a lot more money involved in** 

### 3 **testing them. So the product cycle, if you** 

### 4 **like, is a lot slower.** 

### 5 **The other thing I'd like to point** 

### 6 **out -- I did see a copy of the DOE comments** 

### 7 **on Cleaver-Brooks' request for waiver, and it** 

### 8 **seemed to me that one of the big problems** 

### 9 **with this two psi versus 10 psi pressure to** 

### 10 **perform the test start is that the AHRI who** 

### 11 **developed that test procedure got a steam** 

### 12 **separator that was only good up to two psi.** 

### 13 **But there are other methods of** 

### 14 **measuring the steam quality which go a lot** 

### 15 **higher than that. In fact, we did a lot of** 

### 16 **work in New York City with the Housing** 

### 17 **Authority back in the -- around 2000, and we** 

### 18 **ran all of the tests at 10 psi, and we used a** 

### 19 **piece of equipment called a throttling and** 

### 20 **separating calorimeter made by Ellison. It's** 

### 21 **not a cheap piece of equipment, but they can** 

### 22 **be rented.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 And, you know, that would ease**  

### 2 **some of the problem, although there is** 

### 3 **nothing wrong with what John is talking about** 

### 4 **in doing it at higher pressure and then** 

### 5 **correcting back to, you know, whatever** 

### 6 **pressure DOE wants.** 

### 7 **Does that clear anything up or** 

### 8 **not?** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, it helps. I** 

### 10 **don't know if it clears it up entirely.** 

### 11 **MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane** 

### 12 **Jakobs. And my experience is with the** 

### 13 **residential furnaces, but I would agree with** 

### 14 **the first person that the variation that we** 

### 15 **do have is mostly associated with electrical** 

### 16 **components with the fans and the motors.** 

### 17 **And I'm also on the AHRI** 

### 18 **certification for furnaces committee, and we** 

### 19 **just don't have -- don't have the number --** 

### 20 **don't have failures, really, for the most** 

### 21 **part, unless someone is doing something** 

### 22 **really, really bad. And I used to think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 furnaces were just better, but I'm smarter**  

### 2 **now I guess.** 

### 3 **And I think that the variation is** 

### 4 **in the motors and related to air** 

### 5 **conditioning. And that what he was saying is** 

### 6 **right, if you have the same input rate for** 

### 7 **the gas that pretty much what you put in is** 

### 8 **related to the area of the heat exchanger,** 

### 9 **and that doesn't vary like windings do on** 

### 10 **motors.** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 12 **MS. JAKOBS: Okay. Yeah. I** 

### 13 **don't know if you have pumps, but --** 

### 14 **MR. HALLEY: Well, they're** 

### 15 **external to the boiler. Typically, they're** 

### 16 **part of the system rather than the boiler.** 

### 17 **MS. JAKOBS: Right. So if you** 

### 18 **define the flow rate, and don't just kind of** 

### 19 **take what you get out of the motor, I would** 

### 20 **see that it would be really repeatable and it** 

### 21 **wouldn't vary like a device that has electric** 

### 22 **motors.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 MR. HALLEY: Right.**  

### 2 **MS. JAKOBS: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: I'm not sure that** 

### 4 **John was finished earlier.** 

### 5 **MS. JAKOBS: Sorry.** 

### 6 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 7 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. I was pretty much** 

### 8 **finished, and I think what I was going to say** 

### 9 **Geoffrey covered it. But I think, you know,** 

### 10 **the boilers need to just focus on the** 

### 11 **pressure vessel, and the pressure vessel** 

### 12 **doesn't change.** 

### 13 **So it's our feeling that all of** 

### 14 **this extra testing is needless because** 

### 15 **nothing -- you are not going to catch anyone** 

### 16 **in the industry that builds a fire tube** 

### 17 **boiler cheating -- or something changing very** 

### 18 **much because it is what it is. A pressure** 

### 19 **vessel is a pressure vessel. And then --** 

### 20 **MS. JAKOBS: Just to add to that,** 

### 21 **because you have to build to this ASME** 

### 22 **standard, which is a very stringent standard**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 on how you build that pressure vessel, it is**  

### 2 **almost impossible for the efficiency of the** 

### 3 **unit to change, because the construction of** 

### 4 **that pressure vessel is pretty strict.** 

### 5 **So I think that's what everyone** 

### 6 **is trying to say is you're not going to** 

### 7 **necessarily have the variation in efficiency** 

### 8 **because that ASME construction, standard of** 

### 9 **that pressure vessel, is, you know,** 

### 10 **monitored, and, you know, it's a pretty** 

### 11 **strict standard that you have to follow.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: This is Neil Eisner.** 

### 13 **Does 100 percent of the industry meet the** 

### 14 **ASME standard?** 

### 15 **MR. HALLEY: Yes. Unless you** 

### 16 **come from out of the country, in which case** 

### 17 **they have got to be still vetted and** 

### 18 **authorized by the State Chief Inspector as** 

### 19 **acceptable.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 21 **HTP. I think a question I had was,** 

### 22 **currently, do the DOE regs require ASME**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 construction for commercial boilers? Because**  

### 2 **a lot of times the market does definitely** 

### 3 **require it above a certain size. But when** 

### 4 **you get down to the smaller BTU products, I** 

### 5 **think it's a relatively recent event to** 

### 6 **require ASME within the past five years or** 

### 7 **so.** 

### 8 **MR. HALLEY: You are probably** 

### 9 **right about that. Certainly, from the** 

### 10 **National Board point of view, which is the** 

### 11 **enforcement arm of ASME, if you like, they** 

### 12 **really don't get involved in the residential** 

### 13 **size boilers enough. I think in fact, if** 

### 14 **anything, on the -- it's about 400,000 BTUs** 

### 15 **an hour input I think they don't get involved** 

### 16 **in. There are just too many of them for the** 

### 17 **-- you know, the workload basically.** 

### 18 **But beyond that, which is the --** 

### 19 **you know, the ABMA side, if you'd like, not** 

### 20 **only is ASME involved in the National Board** 

### 21 **of Boiler Inspectors, they typically -- in** 

### 22 **fact, to my knowledge, I know everything that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 went out of the company I worked for had a UL**  

### 2 **label on it, and it was inspected by the UL** 

### 3 **inspector, and they sampled a spectrum --** 

### 4 **well, they inspected sampling of the entire** 

### 5 **line.** 

### 6 **Typically, the line was split** 

### 7 **into thirds. You looked at a sample from the** 

### 8 **bottom third, the middle third, and the top** 

### 9 **third, and they typically did a combustion** 

### 10 **efficiency as part of the program. And** 

### 11 **beyond that, once they were satisfied that** 

### 12 **you had got a boiler that was safe from the** 

### 13 **controls point of view, then they published** 

### 14 **or they gave what they call -- it was like a** 

### 15 **build stamp.** 

### 16 **It was actually a book that told** 

### 17 **you what had to be on the particular boiler** 

### 18 **in terms of the build standard. So not only** 

### 19 **is ASME involved, UL is involved, National** 

### 20 **Board is involved. So you've got three sets** 

### 21 **of checks basically.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: So what is the size**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 division between the ones that are subject to**  

### 2 **ASME and the ones where it has been a more** 

### 3 **recent development that the market has** 

### 4 **demanded ASME?** 

### 5 **MR. HALLEY: Right. The ASME has** 

### 6 **been around for a long time. In fact, ABMA** 

### 7 **was the forerunner to ASME and has been in** 

### 8 **business for 125 years this year. And their** 

### 9 **initial thing was boiler safety. There's a** 

### 10 **lot of boiler explosions back, you know, in** 

### 11 **the sort of -- I guess you'd say the 1800s,** 

### 12 **late 1800s.** 

### 13 **And so they formed, initially** 

### 14 **ABMA and then followed -- ASME followed, to** 

### 15 **set up standards and to design safer boilers,** 

### 16 **basically. And so to my knowledge, certainly** 

### 17 **I joined the boiler industry in 1968, and** 

### 18 **ASME was a big thing then and so was UL.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: So Phillip was** 

### 20 **saying that it's a more recent development** 

### 21 **for his products. And so what I'm wondering** 

### 22 **is, what is the BTU input that makes that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 line between the products you're talking**  

### 2 **about with ABMA and the products that Phillip** 

### 3 **is talking about?** 

### 4 **MR. HALLEY: Do you want to** 

### 5 **answer that one, John, or do you want me to** 

### 6 **take a crack at it?** 

### 7 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John at** 

### 8 **Cleaver-Brooks. I don't know where that line** 

### 9 **is, because all of our products are above** 

### 10 **that line. We have never --** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: Well, I've --** 

### 12 **MR. SUTPHEN: -- ASME section for** 

### 13 **a vessel.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Are there any --** 

### 15 **MR. HALLEY: Sorry.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Are there any** 

### 17 **boilers sold in the United States that are** 

### 18 **not covered by ASME standards? I mean,** 

### 19 **you're saying, John, that yours are all** 

### 20 **covered. Do we know of any that wouldn't be** 

### 21 **covered?** 

### 22 **MS. JAKOBS: I know there's a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 number like 300,000 for water heaters, but I**  

### 2 **don't know about boilers. I know everything** 

### 3 **above two and a half million -- or 2.5** 

### 4 **million BTUs has to have the ASME** 

### 5 **certification. But I think it goes further** 

### 6 **than that. Maybe, John or Geoff, you can --** 

### 7 **MR. HALLEY: I know from sort of** 

### 8 **experience with, you know, product lines and** 

### 9 **that sort of thing I would say that I don't** 

### 10 **think there is any manufacturer that really** 

### 11 **sells much below what, say, 50, 60** 

### 12 **horsepower, which is an output number which** 

### 13 **-- oh, dear, my brain is not working too** 

### 14 **well.** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: The only non-ASME --** 

### 16 **and this is Jeff Kleiss -- the only non-ASME** 

### 17 **boiler that I'm aware of is made by Kemco** 

### 18 **Systems. And it may be that it's more** 

### 19 **appropriately termed as a water heater.** 

### 20 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah.** 

### 21 **MR. KLEISS: But it has no** 

### 22 **pressure vessel, so it doesn't --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 MR. HALLEY: Okay. Right.**  

### 2 **MR. KLEISS: Now, there are some** 

### 3 **appliances that are truly water heaters or** 

### 4 **pool heaters that are sometimes sold as** 

### 5 **boilers, but they are not boilers and, you** 

### 6 **know, we believe that's a lapse of the boiler** 

### 7 **inspectors to allow the use of those in** 

### 8 **hydronic heating systems.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I'm** 

### 10 **guessing from that description, Jeff, that it** 

### 11 **would not meet the DOE definition of a** 

### 12 **commercial packaged boiler.** 

### 13 **MR. KLEISS: Correct.** 

### 14 **MS. JAKOBS: Correct.** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 16 **HTP. I think what happens in the field is** 

### 17 **it's really up to the local inspectors and** 

### 18 **the local jurisdiction as to whether they** 

### 19 **want to enforce ASME. There are certain** 

### 20 **places in the country that simply don't** 

### 21 **enforce the ASME, and there are certain** 

### 22 **places in the country that I think all of us**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 know that you don't dare send any type of 2 boiler without an ASME snap on the pressure**  **3 vessel. 4 MR. EISNER: Let me see if I --**  **5 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers 6 --**  **7 MR. EISNER: Let me see if I 8 understand --**  **9 MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers 10 with --**  **11 MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Frank. 12 MR. MYERS: Go ahead. This is**  **13 Frank Myers with PVI. I chair the ANSI 14 Z21.13 Boiler Safety Standard Committee, and**  **15 also participate in the Underwriters 16 Laboratories review process for standards.**  **17 And in order to get -- the two prevalent 18 standards for boilers are either UL 795 or**  **19 ANSI Z21.13. 20 And in both of -- not that every**  **21 boiler is certified to those, but if boilers 22 are certified to either of those two** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 standards, they must be under ASME control.**  

### 2 **You cannot list to Z21.13, which includes** 

### 3 **residential boilers as well as commercial,** 

### 4 **unless you have an ASME stamp, and, likewise,** 

### 5 **for UL 795 for boilers, which requires an** 

### 6 **ASME stamp.** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: Frank, when did** 

### 8 **that change take effect with the Z21.13** 

### 9 **standard?** 

### 10 **MR. MYERS: That has been in --** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Is that the one I** 

### 12 **was --** 

### 13 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,** 

### 14 **PVI. It actually has been well beyond my** 

### 15 **history, which is 30 years, with Z21.13.** 

### 16 **There was a clarification to make sure there** 

### 17 **was no slippage because some laboratories** 

### 18 **using that standard had begun allowing a** 

### 19 **water heater, which did not have to be ASME** 

### 20 **approved, to be listed under the boiler** 

### 21 **standard.** 

### 22 **So there was some leakage through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 error, and the Standards Committee made**  

### 2 **revisions about four or five years ago to** 

### 3 **clarify that that was not acceptable, that** 

### 4 **you had to have the ASME stamp before you** 

### 5 **could get the safety approval. So it was a** 

### 6 **clarification as opposed to a change in the** 

### 7 **standard.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: I think what I'm** 

### 9 **hearing now is that, in accordance with the** 

### 10 **way DOE regulates in the area, all boilers** 

### 11 **would be covered by the ASME standard. They** 

### 12 **may call it a boiler, but under DOE** 

### 13 **regulations that would not count. Is that** 

### 14 **fair?** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 16 **HTP. That is why I was asking the question** 

### 17 **about the wording of the DOE regulation.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: Rephrase your** 

### 19 **question, Phillip. I'll try and jump in.** 

### 20 **MR. STEPHENS: Does the text of** 

### 21 **the regulation require ASME construction of a** 

### 22 **boiler?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: So unless it's in**  

### 2 **one of these documents as incorporated by** 

### 3 **reference, it is not in the text of the DOE** 

### 4 **regulation.** 

### 5 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.** 

### 6 **That is correct. It is not a part of the** 

### 7 **DOE regulation. If we were going to add some** 

### 8 **requirements for testing that were unique to** 

### 9 **this, it would have to be a part of the new** 

### 10 **rulemaking saying, "This is what applies to** 

### 11 **boilers that have the ASME stamp."** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: Laura, could that be** 

### 13 **done as part of the grant of a waiver?** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, so, and folks** 

### 15 **on the phone correct me if I'm wrong, but I** 

### 16 **think what you all are arguing is that** 

### 17 **because of the high standards of this ASME** 

### 18 **Section 4 Code that there is not a need for** 

### 19 **verification testing because there is already** 

### 20 **such a high level of quality control, checks** 

### 21 **on production, that DOE should feel confident** 

### 22 **that one unit is going to be the same as the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 next unit, which is different than the actual**  

### 2 **test procedure for measuring the efficiency** 

### 3 **of the product.** 

### 4 **MS. JAKOBS: Yeah. I think the** 

### 5 **big variable -- this is Diane Jakobs. I** 

### 6 **think the big variable is the area of the** 

### 7 **heat exchanger, the surface area, and the** 

### 8 **ASME standards are such that that's not --** 

### 9 **does not vary. There is a check for another** 

### 10 **reason, for safety, but that's an area that** 

### 11 **won't vary from unit to unit. So there is no** 

### 12 **need to verify that for efficiency because** 

### 13 **the variations aren't allowed.** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: Laura, are we --** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: What about the** 

### 16 **combustion efficiency?** 

### 17 **MS. JAKOBS: It got -- we were** 

### 18 **talking on top of each other.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: Oh, sorry.** 

### 20 **Phillip Stephens. What about the combustion** 

### 21 **efficiency?** 

### 22 **MR. HALLEY: The combustion**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 efficiency -- the manufacturer I work for, it**  

### 2 **didn't change from, say, 1970 on. They had** 

### 3 **good burners at that time, and, you know, a** 

### 4 **boiler that was designed to ASME, so it** 

### 5 **didn't change for all intents and purposes.** 

### 6 **Now, you know, there are some** 

### 7 **more modern developments, obviously, and** 

### 8 **surface area is still a big thing. But if** 

### 9 **you get into some more exotic tubing and that** 

### 10 **sort of thing, then you've got a different** 

### 11 **basic boiler. But once that has been** 

### 12 **developed and certified, then the same set of** 

### 13 **conditions apply.** 

### 14 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss,** 

### 15 **Lochinvar. I would disagree with the point** 

### 16 **that there is so much consistency, or that** 

### 17 **boilers don't change, and, therefore, there** 

### 18 **is not a need for verification testing.** 

### 19 **My thoughts or points in the** 

### 20 **significance of the ASME and the rigor of the** 

### 21 **testing that's involved in certification of** 

### 22 **the boilers is more to say that boiler**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 designs do not rapidly change, nor do we**  

### 2 **create small modifications to heat exchangers** 

### 3 **once they are designed because it does -- as** 

### 4 **was said before, it makes more sense to call** 

### 5 **it a whole new model at that point.** 

### 6 **However, in cast boilers, you can** 

### 7 **have patterns that have tinware, or machining** 

### 8 **tolerances can cause sections to be separated** 

### 9 **more or less from each other, that opens or** 

### 10 **closes the flueways and changes the** 

### 11 **efficiency.** 

### 12 **You can have other machining** 

### 13 **tolerances or baffles that maybe are bent** 

### 14 **slightly differently or positioned slightly** 

### 15 **differently. Any number of various things** 

### 16 **can change within a manufacturing process** 

### 17 **that could affect the efficiency of just** 

### 18 **about any design boiler.** 

### 19 **And to say that because the** 

### 20 **design hasn't changed that there is not a** 

### 21 **need for verification I believe is** 

### 22 **inaccurate.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: And, Jeff, just to**  

### 2 **be clear, you're making that statement across** 

### 3 **the full range of sizes of boilers, not just** 

### 4 **for the smaller ones?** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: Yeah. I think that** 

### 6 **it would be -- yeah, I think that's a little** 

### 7 **bit too sweeping. There may be some** 

### 8 **exceptions to that, but I'm concerned that** 

### 9 **anybody would say that their process does not** 

### 10 **have variability.** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: What are you talking** 

### 12 **about when you talk about machining** 

### 13 **tolerances? I mean, it sounds as though you** 

### 14 **get into very precise tolerances of** 

### 15 **thousandths of an inch or something like** 

### 16 **that, whereas those sort of tolerances don't** 

### 17 **exist on the big stuff, you know, that you're** 

### 18 **not working to thousandths of an inch.** 

### 19 **And I think with the sort of** 

### 20 **smaller sizes minor changes are going to have** 

### 21 **a bigger effect than they are on the big** 

### 22 **sizes. They are going to have little or no**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 effect at all on the big sizes.**  

### 2 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,** 

### 3 **PVI. I tend to agree with Jeff, but I would** 

### 4 **add that --** 

### 5 **MR. HALLEY: Which Geoff?** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: I was going to say,** 

### 7 **there's two Jeffs.** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **MR. MYERS: Jeff Kleiss with** 

### 10 **Lochinvar, who is concerned that there is --** 

### 11 **there can be variation. I know when we were** 

### 12 **talking earlier, when there was discussion** 

### 13 **about not changing and there was mention of** 

### 14 **not having to conduct any verification test** 

### 15 **because of that, I was thinking at that time** 

### 16 **that I didn't necessarily agree with no test,** 

### 17 **but I could certainly agree with some reduced** 

### 18 **level of test because of these other control** 

### 19 **factors.** 

### 20 **And it may be when you get into** 

### 21 **the very large equipment that the kinds of** 

### 22 **tolerances that Jeff Kleiss was talking about**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 on a percentage basis may not have the same**  

### 2 **impact as they do on a smaller piece of** 

### 3 **equipment.** 

### 4 **So if there was an even further** 

### 5 **reduction of review, let's call it a review** 

### 6 **-- a periodic review of the AEDM as opposed** 

### 7 **to the equipment, and that serves as their** 

### 8 **verification, perhaps we could do something** 

### 9 **like that.** 

### 10 **But I do want to bring up one** 

### 11 **other point. There was a mention of not** 

### 12 **checking electrical consumption with BTS** 

### 13 **2000. That's not completely accurate. If** 

### 14 **the unit has a blower or other electrical** 

### 15 **components that are a part of the appliance,** 

### 16 **then they are checked.** 

### 17 **So if you -- and as you get to** 

### 18 **larger pieces of equipment, perhaps, again,** 

### 19 **that's a smaller percentage of the total.** 

### 20 **But there is electrical parasitic loss that** 

### 21 **if it's on the product -- now, not all** 

### 22 **products have those kinds of big electrical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 consumers, but many of the newer products do**  

### 2 **have blower systems as opposed to** 

### 3 **atmospherically generated, either power-type** 

### 4 **burners, gun-type burners, and that consumes** 

### 5 **a level of power that should be factored into** 

### 6 **the overall efficiency.** 

### 7 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 8 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. I disagree on that** 

### 9 **last statement. There is not factored in --** 

### 10 **there is no power consumption measurement** 

### 11 **during the BTS-2000 test, and nowhere does it** 

### 12 **say that you need to do a power consumption** 

### 13 **measurement during a BTS-2000 test.** 

### 14 **Also, I also disagree with Jeff** 

### 15 **Kleiss' statement that there is a lot of** 

### 16 **variability. He might be speaking on behalf** 

### 17 **of the cast iron market, and maybe the** 

### 18 **smaller -- very small residential commercial** 

### 19 **stuff. But as far as our industry, with the** 

### 20 **traditional fire tube and water tube boilers,** 

### 21 **this is not the case.** 

### 22 **We stamp a heating surface area**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 on every boiler. It's on the ASME form. It**  

### 2 **is pretty tightly monitored, so that the** 

### 3 **variability in these -- these levels that the** 

### 4 **DOE set for commercial heating boilers are --** 

### 5 **for us they are very low. All of our** 

### 6 **products can meet it easily.** 

### 7 **I think you set them so low for** 

### 8 **these smaller boilers, you know, that might** 

### 9 **have smaller heating surface areas than what** 

### 10 **we have been used to for a hundred years. So** 

### 11 **I think, a) we're being what we consider** 

### 12 **wrongly grouped in with these small** 

### 13 **commercial products by not having a limit on** 

### 14 **boiler size as to where you break this -- you** 

### 15 **know, the size range. And we are being, you** 

### 16 **know, penalized for having a product that** 

### 17 **handily meets any regulation for all of this** 

### 18 **needless testing.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Let me suggest that** 

### 20 **I think we are going in the right direction.** 

### 21 **We are starting to get into a situation** 

### 22 **where we are talking about exceptions within**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 the exceptions. Why don't we try to put**  

### 2 **something on the screen -- I assume you all** 

### 3 **have access to the screen -- so we can start** 

### 4 **narrowing down where the differences are, and** 

### 5 **maybe have somebody online start off with a** 

### 6 **description of what the ASME requires and why** 

### 7 **meeting ASME lessens the need for the kind of** 

### 8 **testing we are doing for the other equipment.** 

### 9 **And then start adding on some of these other** 

### 10 **conditions or factors that should be part of** 

### 11 **the decisionmaking process.** 

### 12 **Does somebody want to start off** 

### 13 **and just -- and we can start putting it up on** 

### 14 **the screen and describe what we were talking** 

### 15 **about in the very beginning, and then we can** 

### 16 **start talking about how we are going to** 

### 17 **define a boiler or whether we already have a** 

### 18 **definition for it.** 

### 19 **John, did you want to start off** 

### 20 **with a description about meeting the ASME** 

### 21 **standards and what that means?** 

### 22 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. ASME Section 4,**  

### 2 **pressure vessel standard, is design** 

### 3 **constrained on how everyone needs to build** 

### 4 **their pressure vessel using these design** 

### 5 **standards and constraints, as far as how you** 

### 6 **-- every part of your pressure vessel is** 

### 7 **regulated and dictated by this standard.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: John, give us a** 

### 9 **second.** 

### 10 **MR. SUTPHEN: And every time you** 

### 11 **build --** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: John? John, give us** 

### 13 **a second here. We're trying to keep up with** 

### 14 **you, and there's some technical problem.** 

### 15 **(Pause.)** 

### 16 **Can you guys see it as it's being** 

### 17 **typed? So you know whether Laura is keeping** 

### 18 **up with you.** 

### 19 **MS. JAKOBS: It is American** 

### 20 **Society of Mechanical Engineers. So it's** 

### 21 **ASME.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: E at the end.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 MS. JAKOBS: Yeah. So the very**  

### 2 **first part should be -- have an E and not an** 

### 3 **I.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: I'm trying, Diane.** 

### 5 **Hold on.** 

### 6 **MS. JAKOBS: Oh, okay. I'm** 

### 7 **sorry. Thank you.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So that's** 

### 9 **all I've got so far. Go ahead, John.** 

### 10 **MR. SUTPHEN: The ASME monitors** 

### 11 **the heating surface area for all boiler** 

### 12 **products, and you have stamped that on the** 

### 13 **boiler. Every time you make that boiler, it** 

### 14 **has the exact same heating surface area.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Slow down.** 

### 16 **MR. SUTPHEN: And that doesn't** 

### 17 **change.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: Anything Laura has** 

### 19 **missed so far? What else would you add?** 

### 20 **MR. HALLEY: A lot of the heating** 

### 21 **surface area is, obviously, the basis of** 

### 22 **efficiency. If you've got less for a given**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 input or output design, the heating surface**  

### 2 **area, if you've got less than this certain** 

### 3 **magic number, if you like, of so many square** 

### 4 **feet per -- say boiler horsepower is one unit** 

### 5 **they use, number of square feet of heating** 

### 6 **surface per boiler horsepower.** 

### 7 **If that goes down, then you would** 

### 8 **expect your efficiency to go down also. But** 

### 9 **if it goes up, if you've got more than this** 

### 10 **magic number, then you are going to get a** 

### 11 **higher efficiency.** 

### 12 **MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. But** 

### 13 **I think because of the way the test procedure** 

### 14 **is written, you have the -- you measure the** 

### 15 **amount of BTUs per hour that go in.** 

### 16 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 17 **MS. JAKOBS: And that can vary** 

### 18 **for different fuels, but we make adjustments.** 

### 19 **And then you measure the BTUs that come out** 

### 20 **in the water and how you measure -- how you** 

### 21 **measure that is very -- is consistent.** 

### 22 **So the biggest variable I think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 is the area. So someone correct me if I'm**  

### 2 **wrong, because I'm kind of extrapolating from** 

### 3 **things I'm more familiar with.** 

### 4 **MR. HALLEY: I'm not sure that I** 

### 5 **got all of what you said, Diane. Could you** 

### 6 **go through it again?** 

### 7 **MS. JAKOBS: Well, I think we're** 

### 8 **looking for where is the variability. So,** 

### 9 **and we're talking about variability between** 

### 10 **-- you make the first unit and you make a** 

### 11 **second unit, and that's what verification is** 

### 12 **about --** 

### 13 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 14 **MS. JAKOBS: -- if you're making** 

### 15 **the same thing a number of times after it was** 

### 16 **designed. We're looking for where the design** 

### 17 **-- the production process can introduce** 

### 18 **variability.** 

### 19 **MR. HALLEY: I don't see where it** 

### 20 **can.** 

### 21 **MS. JAKOBS: Right. So if the** 

### 22 **area is the same, you measure --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 MR. HALLEY: If the area is the**  

### 2 **same, then you would expect the same** 

### 3 **efficiency.** 

### 4 **MS. JAKOBS: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 6 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. And that's for a** 

### 7 **specific model. Let's say Model A has 100** 

### 8 **square feet. Model A will always have 100** 

### 9 **square feet. If you change that 100 square** 

### 10 **feet to 150 square feet, it's now Model B.** 

### 11 **It's not Model A.** 

### 12 **If you build a Model A, it's** 

### 13 **always 100 square feet, or whatever square** 

### 14 **feet you want to use. So it's always the** 

### 15 **same. So whatever that square footage is, it** 

### 16 **never changes for that model.** 

### 17 **MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. I** 

### 18 **think we get into trouble when you talk about** 

### 19 **the same, because nothing is ever the same.** 

### 20 **But can it vary one percent or a half percent** 

### 21 **for the surface area?** 

### 22 **MR. HALLEY: Obviously, that is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 going to change a little bit with size. For**  

### 2 **example, the smaller end of a product line, a** 

### 3 **minor variation in, say, tube length is going** 

### 4 **to be a bigger percentage than the same** 

### 5 **variation on a larger boiler. It's going to** 

### 6 **be minimal anyway, you know, I would say less** 

### 7 **than one percent.** 

### 8 **MR. EISNER: We've been using --** 

### 9 **MR. HALLEY: A lot less than one** 

### 10 **percent.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: We've used the --** 

### 12 **MR. HALLEY: Don't know where the** 

### 13 **--** 

### 14 **MR. EISNER: We've used the** 

### 15 **comparison 100, 150 would be a different** 

### 16 **boiler. What about 110 or 101? Would that** 

### 17 **be a different --** 

### 18 **MR. HALLEY: Well, they go in** 

### 19 **increments typically. They -- if you look at** 

### 20 **a catalogue of a manufacturer, you will see** 

### 21 **increments of, say, 100. The next increment** 

### 22 **could be 125, and then 150, and they are each**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 different boilers. They are different**  

### 2 **lengths.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: So does ASME** 

### 4 **specify how much variability is permitted?** 

### 5 **MR. HALLEY: In dimensions, it** 

### 6 **gives you a nominal number. Well, the** 

### 7 **designer, the manufacturer, has a nominal** 

### 8 **number in the tolerances, are very close.** 

### 9 **You know, John may be able to expand on that.** 

### 10 **He's more current than I am on the** 

### 11 **manufacturing side.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: But I think the** 

### 13 **problem that Laura is getting at is a** 

### 14 **regulation can't use words like "typically."** 

### 15 **It has to know what the standard is. Would** 

### 16 **somebody say, "I have enough room in my** 

### 17 **facility for you to make the boiler 105** 

### 18 **square feet, because I've got more room and** 

### 19 **that would be better for me"? And will** 

### 20 **somebody make a boiler for that person in** 

### 21 **that size? How can --** 

### 22 **MR. SUTPHEN: That would be a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 different model. This is John Sutphen,**  

### 2 **Cleaver-Brooks.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Okay. So that's the** 

### 4 **question. At what point does it become a** 

### 5 **different model, one percent, five percent?** 

### 6 **MS. JAKOBS: Maybe we should look** 

### 7 **-- this is Diane. Maybe we should look at** 

### 8 **the ASME Code and see what the tolerances** 

### 9 **actually are.** 

### 10 **MR. KLEISS: I don't believe** 

### 11 **there are tolerances in Section 4.** 

### 12 **MR. HALLEY: Manufacturer sets** 

### 13 **the tolerances.** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 15 **HTP. I think maybe we need to look at it** 

### 16 **from a little bit different perspective, kind** 

### 17 **of a "forest for the trees" situation with** 

### 18 **the ASME. We know that there's a definite** 

### 19 **break point, although we don't know where it** 

### 20 **is, for the large boilers that are very low** 

### 21 **volume, custom built, built to order types of** 

### 22 **products.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 Maybe we need to set the break**  

### 2 **point there instead of looking at the ASME** 

### 3 **section. Just a strawman for a thought.** 

### 4 **MS. BARHYDT: So where would you** 

### 5 **put that line, Phillip?** 

### 6 **MR. STEPHENS: Well, I think** 

### 7 **Karen mentioned two and a half million** 

### 8 **earlier. So I'd throw that out as a first** 

### 9 **guess.** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: That's BTU --** 

### 11 **MR. STEPHENS: Nothing more than** 

### 12 **--** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: -- input or output?** 

### 14 **MR. STEPHENS: Input. I think** 

### 15 **Frank Myers may have mentioned that in a** 

### 16 **previous conversation also.** 

### 17 **The other common breakpoint is** 

### 18 **the 12-1/2 million BTUs, but I'm pretty sure** 

### 19 **--** 

### 20 **MR. HALLEY: That's a control** 

### 21 **standard, that's CSD 1 control standard,** 

### 22 **which is also an ASME standard.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 MS. MEYERS: Hey, Laura, this is**  

### 2 **Karen Meyers. I have to get off the phone,** 

### 3 **so if there are any votes taken, Diane has** 

### 4 **the proxy for Rheem.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: There be no votes** 

### 6 **today. We are just gathering information** 

### 7 **today.** 

### 8 **MS. MEYERS: Great. Good luck.** 

### 9 **MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss.** 

### 10 **There is one other thing that I think may be** 

### 11 **a misconception that is affecting our** 

### 12 **discussion. And correct me if I'm wrong, but** 

### 13 **we are not talking about just determining** 

### 14 **yes, no, minimum compliance with the** 

### 15 **standard; but, rather, what we're talking** 

### 16 **about is accurate and consistent** 

### 17 **representation of the actual performance of** 

### 18 **the appliance.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: That's correct.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: So how do we, again,** 

### 22 **determine where the break point is and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 whether --**  

### 2 **MR. HALLEY: Well, I'll -- the** 

### 3 **two and a half million input sounds fine to** 

### 4 **me. I don't know what John thinks, but it's** 

### 5 **fine with me.** 

### 6 **MR. SUTPHEN: It sounds fine to** 

### 7 **me.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. EISNER: What does this mean** 

### 10 **in terms of the 100 versus the 150 square** 

### 11 **feet?** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: That I'm not sure.** 

### 13 **MR. EISNER: Can somebody explain** 

### 14 **that?** 

### 15 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 16 **HTP. It would be across dose boards where --** 

### 17 **my comments before about the requirements of** 

### 18 **ASME, they were well below the two and a half** 

### 19 **million. Typically, if anything -- from my** 

### 20 **experience, if anything is a million BTUs or** 

### 21 **over, they are going to want ASME on it. So** 

### 22 **I know the break point is somewhere below**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 that, but I'm not sure where.**  

### 2 **MR. HARDIN: This is Travis** 

### 3 **Hardin. Can anybody hear me?** 

### 4 **(Several answers in the** 

### 5 **affirmative.)** 

### 6 **Okay. UL 795, the break point** 

### 7 **starts at 400,000. And the other thing I** 

### 8 **wanted to ask is, in commercial industrial** 

### 9 **boilers, would Section 1 of ASME be required** 

### 10 **or be used in lieu of Section 4?** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: Section 1 is high** 

### 12 **pressure code. I don't think that's covered.** 

### 13 **This is a heating boiler code, which is** 

### 14 **Section 4.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Did that make sense** 

### 16 **to everyone?** 

### 17 **MR. KLEISS: Well, Travis brings** 

### 18 **up a good point. I mean, a Section 1 boiler** 

### 19 **is still a boiler. It still has an** 

### 20 **efficiency rating and should be covered.** 

### 21 **MR. MYERS: Yeah. This is Frank** 

### 22 **Myers, PVI. We have actually gotten --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 received cut and build custom boilers where**  

### 2 **the customer wanted it certified to Section** 

### 3 **1, but they intended to operate it at lower** 

### 4 **pressures.** 

### 5 **So it was designed to be able to** 

### 6 **handle the higher pressures, but their** 

### 7 **operation was at lower pressure. And we felt** 

### 8 **that that unit had to comply with the current** 

### 9 **DOE requirements.** 

### 10 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah. Doesn't DOE** 

### 11 **sort of specify that the requirements tie** 

### 12 **into heating boilers rather than, say,** 

### 13 **process boilers or industrial boilers?** 

### 14 **MR. MYERS: In this particular** 

### 15 **case, it was being used as a heating boiler.** 

### 16 **There was a customer who wanted to have what** 

### 17 **he felt was -- that customer felt was the** 

### 18 **greater certainty of performance afforded by** 

### 19 **the tighter constraints of Section 1.** 

### 20 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 21 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. A Section 1 boiler** 

### 22 **is not a heating boiler. It's a process**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 steam boiler. So if the customer wants a**  

### 2 **Section 1 boiler, it's not a heating boiler.** 

### 3 **If they want to use it for heating, that's** 

### 4 **their prerogative. It's just tighter design** 

### 5 **constraints. I don't think we should really** 

### 6 **need to discuss Section 1 boilers in this** 

### 7 **heating boiler discussion.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, I was going** 

### 9 **to try and pull up the definitions for** 

### 10 **everyone, but --** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: I think the DOE** 

### 12 **definition of a boiler is the same as the** 

### 13 **Section 4 definition of a boiler, ASME** 

### 14 **Section 4 I think, if I remember right.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So I'm going** 

### 16 **to put them up on the screen. Okay. So give** 

### 17 **me one second, and I'll get them all up here.** 

### 18 **(Pause.)** 

### 19 **Okay. So that's commercial** 

### 20 **packaged boiler. Let's see, packaged boiler** 

### 21 **--** 

### 22 **MR. STEPHENS: Laura, can we also**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 get the definition of the hot water supply**  

### 2 **boiler --** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: -- referenced in** 

### 5 **Item 2? Thank you.** 

### 6 **(Pause.)** 

### 7 **MR. KLEISS: Hey, Laura?** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 9 **MR. KLEISS: I just sent through** 

### 10 **the question and answer thing what you're** 

### 11 **typing. You can cut and paste.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. KLEISS: If it helps.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Oh, darn. It went** 

### 15 **to the other computer. The trick is getting** 

### 16 **it to this computer.** 

### 17 **(Pause.)** 

### 18 **Does anyone know offhand where** 

### 19 **the definition of hot water supply boiler is?** 

### 20 **It's somewhere in the part, but it's not in** 

### 21 **this one.** 

### 22 **MR. EISNER: Did everybody hear**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 Laura's question?**  

### 2 **MR. KLEISS: Yeah. I'm looking.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. BALLO: Hey, Laura, this is** 

### 5 **Tim Ballo.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. BALLO: The definition of hot** 

### 8 **water supply boiler is in 10 CFR 431.102.** 

### 9 **MR. KLEISS: That's right. It's** 

### 10 **under water heaters.** 

### 11 **(Pause.)** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Any other** 

### 13 **definitions that would be useful?** 

### 14 **MR. KLEISS: I think it's** 

### 15 **worthwhile to point out that Table 1 in** 

### 16 **431.87 does divide the efficiency metrics at** 

### 17 **2.5 million BTUs per hour. So there is a** 

### 18 **pre-existing DOE dividing line that --** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Oh, yes.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: -- coincides with** 

### 21 **what we've been talking about.** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: There's no way to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 get it all on one screen.**  

### 2 **(Pause.)** 

### 3 **Okay. So all of this was to** 

### 4 **address a question as to what DOE's coverage** 

### 5 **was. So does this help with that issue?** 

### 6 **(No response.)** 

### 7 **Silence.** 

### 8 **MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane.** 

### 9 **Maybe the point is that the verification** 

### 10 **process should be different for these** 

### 11 **categories.** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes. This is** 

### 13 **Phillip. That was my intent for the** 

### 14 **strawman.** 

### 15 **MR. EISNER: Others agree with** 

### 16 **that or disagree with that?** 

### 17 **(No response.)** 

### 18 **All right. So assuming the lack** 

### 19 **of any statement means that generally there** 

### 20 **is agreement. What would the requirements be** 

### 21 **for each of these categories?** 

### 22 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 PVI. I have some concern with a two and a**  

### 2 **half million break point in terms -- if the** 

### 3 **answer for above two and a half million is no** 

### 4 **verification, a significant part of the** 

### 5 **market right now for commercial boilers is in** 

### 6 **the -- in buildings that need four, six,** 

### 7 **eight million BTUs.** 

### 8 **And I'm sorry, I'm getting some** 

### 9 **feedback, it's difficult to carry on a** 

### 10 **thought here.** 

### 11 **But with boilers that are less** 

### 12 **than two and a half million, those are** 

### 13 **frequently provided, if that's what a** 

### 14 **manufacturer has, they will provide multiples** 

### 15 **of those boilers. Another manufacturer could** 

### 16 **have a single product or fewer numbers of** 

### 17 **let's say three million or four million BTU** 

### 18 **boilers that serves the exact same purpose,** 

### 19 **consumes the exact same amount of energy,** 

### 20 **plus or minus what the efficiency is, so they** 

### 21 **are serving the same market and one would be** 

### 22 **verified with some level of testing.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 And I would not have a problem**  

### 2 **with a lower level of testing for products** 

### 3 **above two and a half million. But if we're** 

### 4 **looking at a break point with no verification** 

### 5 **testing unless there is a new model which** 

### 6 **would follow its certification requirements,** 

### 7 **I would be very uncomfortable about that.** 

### 8 **So it boils down to me, no** 

### 9 **testing versus a lower level of testing.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Comments or** 

### 11 **questions?** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 13 **HTP. I would agree with that statement. I** 

### 14 **think a good point to make is, the definition** 

### 15 **of packaged boiler, where it would be the** 

### 16 **total assembly of all of the smaller units.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody** 

### 18 **disagree with this?** 

### 19 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 20 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. I disagree.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: And how would you** 

### 22 **respond to the specific points that were**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 made?**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: So apparently,** 

### 3 **Geoff Halley, your phone was the one that was** 

### 4 **causing the feedback, so we have muted you.** 

### 5 **If you need to speak, raise your hand on the** 

### 6 **webinar, so that we can unmute you.** 

### 7 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah. I think I am** 

### 8 **unmuted now, aren't I?** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: Yep. We can hear** 

### 10 **you now.** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: Okay. Yeah. I am** 

### 12 **not sure that I followed Frank completely** 

### 13 **with his sort of eight million. You know,** 

### 14 **when you design a building, obviously, with a** 

### 15 **boiler room which is a required sort of** 

### 16 **design input, if you like, for the boilers of** 

### 17 **eight million, it is usually more than --** 

### 18 **typically more than one boiler.** 

### 19 **Otherwise, you know, the** 

### 20 **possibility of a breakdown will leave the** 

### 21 **building without heat if you've only got one** 

### 22 **boiler, is sort of the typical way of doing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 things is to put in more than one. So if**  

### 2 **you've got eight million, you could put two** 

### 3 **boilers in.** 

### 4 **I'm not sure that I can agree** 

### 5 **with everything that was said there. I still** 

### 6 **think that the -- you know, that we've got a** 

### 7 **definite split between the two entities** 

### 8 **controlling boilers, if you like, or where** 

### 9 **the membership of boiler manufacturers is.** 

### 10 **And they are different worlds,** 

### 11 **and, you know, I've worked in both segments** 

### 12 **to a degree, more to the larger end. But I** 

### 13 **do some sort of expert witness work in the** 

### 14 **smaller end. So I've got a feel for what** 

### 15 **goes on there, and they are entirely** 

### 16 **different.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: Geoff, do you have a** 

### 18 **problem with the concept of some testing? In** 

### 19 **other words, do you prefer no testing above** 

### 20 **two and a half? Does it depend on what --** 

### 21 **MR. HALLEY: I think the industry** 

### 22 **that I'm involved in is less prone to some of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 the concerns that are being expressed by the**  

### 2 **-- you know, the smaller end of the** 

### 3 **marketplace. You know, there's a lot more** 

### 4 **money involved in developing the product, and** 

### 5 **it's got more longevity.** 

### 6 **So, ideally, I think you could** 

### 7 **rely on the manufacturer. But, you know,** 

### 8 **there's so much distrust these days that, you** 

### 9 **know, some minimal amount of testing I think** 

### 10 **-- I don't think you need verification** 

### 11 **testing. You know, you've obviously got to** 

### 12 **do a certification-type test at some point.** 

### 13 **But, beyond that, I don't think it's** 

### 14 **necessary.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So** 

### 16 **certification testing is the testing that is** 

### 17 **already required by DOE regulations, and it** 

### 18 **is not something that we have -- that is** 

### 19 **within the scope of this working group. The** 

### 20 **certification testing was I guess an issue** 

### 21 **only to the extent that we were dealing with** 

### 22 **AEDMs and the ability to --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 MR. HALLEY: Right.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: -- simulate. So** 

### 3 **the certification testing --** 

### 4 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: -- requirements are** 

### 6 **what they are, and the issue is whether or** 

### 7 **not --** 

### 8 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: -- there should be** 

### 10 **verification testing.** 

### 11 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: And, Frank, when you** 

### 13 **talk about some verification testing, what** 

### 14 **were you talking about? What are you** 

### 15 **thinking it would be?** 

### 16 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,** 

### 17 **PVI. Neil, if you are asking, what kind of** 

### 18 **volume do I think, I have always been a** 

### 19 **proponent of at least one test per year. No** 

### 20 **matter what your circumstance, if you only** 

### 21 **make one model, I still feel it's appropriate** 

### 22 **to have one test per year. So I wouldn't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 even be uncomfortable as long as the**  

### 2 **Department was involved in making the** 

### 3 **decision as to what unit is tested.** 

### 4 **Obviously, when you get into the** 

### 5 **larger sizes, they would have to work with** 

### 6 **the manufacturer as a part of their** 

### 7 **production process to test something that is** 

### 8 **actually being built. But I actually have** 

### 9 **situations right now where we have some high** 

### 10 **efficiency products that currently only go up** 

### 11 **to two million. We have them safety** 

### 12 **certified to two and a half million.** 

### 13 **And at the time we certified it,** 

### 14 **that gave us quite a range of sales. And if** 

### 15 **you needed four million BTUs, you would put** 

### 16 **in two. If you needed six million BTUs,** 

### 17 **you'd put in three. And today what we're** 

### 18 **seeing is our direct competitors are taking** 

### 19 **their condensing designs to slightly larger** 

### 20 **sizes, something above two and a half** 

### 21 **million, so that they can sell fewer of the** 

### 22 **products to meet the building demand.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 Sometimes it is fewer as in one**  

### 2 **larger boiler, and the building owner is** 

### 3 **willing to take that risk, and then sometimes** 

### 4 **there are multiples, like if they had six** 

### 5 **million BTU load they could put in two of the** 

### 6 **higher efficiency three million BTU products,** 

### 7 **but they would have to put in three of our** 

### 8 **products.** 

### 9 **So we are direct competitors in** 

### 10 **the same market, and I -- again, I wouldn't** 

### 11 **have a problem if they have less testing.** 

### 12 **But I would be uncomfortable, just knowing my** 

### 13 **competitors and what the possibilities are,** 

### 14 **for them to not have the exact number that** 

### 15 **they claim. I would like to see at least** 

### 16 **some level of testing.** 

### 17 **MR. EISNER: And what's the** 

### 18 **reaction to -- among the others on the phone** 

### 19 **to the idea of one per year chosen by DOE?** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: Of something you** 

### 21 **are --** 

### 22 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. Our stance is zero**  

### 2 **testing.** 

### 3 **MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane** 

### 4 **Jakobs, and what you're proposing, what** 

### 5 **Frank's proposing I think, is instead of the** 

### 6 **way we think about it with residential that** 

### 7 **you're verifying each product design, I think** 

### 8 **you're talking about verifying the** 

### 9 **manufacturer's ability for repeatability of** 

### 10 **their design.** 

### 11 **So you're not going to look at --** 

### 12 **I mean, it's just kind of more of a random** 

### 13 **sample. And I think that that is -- I think** 

### 14 **that's reasonable. I think it's hard to say** 

### 15 **you know the repeatability of your design if** 

### 16 **you're not testing it.** 

### 17 **So unless manufacturers had test** 

### 18 **data to support that their design doesn't** 

### 19 **vary, I don't think you can really say that** 

### 20 **it doesn't. So I think the idea of one test** 

### 21 **a year to verify just the manufacturer in** 

### 22 **general is reasonable.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.**  

### 2 **I would agree with that, but I would want to** 

### 3 **consider moving that limit higher from two** 

### 4 **and a half million to possibly five million.** 

### 5 **MR. EISNER: Any reaction to that** 

### 6 **or to the original point that we were talking** 

### 7 **about?** 

### 8 **MR. SUTPHEN: I just don't see --** 

### 9 **if I can -- this is John Sutphen, Cleaver** 

### 10 **Brooks. If I remember correctly, for** 

### 11 **verification testing, I think there is up to** 

### 12 **five percent.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: No, no, no. So at** 

### 14 **the last meeting we were talking about how** 

### 15 **much testing, but there has been no decision** 

### 16 **about how much. And in particular, the** 

### 17 **discussions so far have focused on built to** 

### 18 **stock units, not custom built units, or built** 

### 19 **to order.** 

### 20 **MR. SUTPHEN: Okay. Because we** 

### 21 **don't have any build to stock units that --** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 MR. SUTPHEN: -- that we're**  

### 2 **really concerned about.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: So we are -- to the** 

### 4 **extent that -- so so far we have not** 

### 5 **discussed how much testing would be required** 

### 6 **for built to order products. We haven't** 

### 7 **discussed that at all. So there is no** 

### 8 **presumption of a certain amount. It's a** 

### 9 **question of --** 

### 10 **MR. SUTPHEN: I'm talking about** 

### 11 **--** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: -- should there be** 

### 13 **some or none?** 

### 14 **MR. SUTPHEN: I guess it's -- I** 

### 15 **was talking about percentage of being off of** 

### 16 **your -- what you're saying your efficiency is** 

### 17 **--** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. SUTPHEN: -- for verification** 

### 20 **testing.** 

### 21 **MR. HALLEY: The variability of** 

### 22 **tests is --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 MR. SUTPHEN: Yes. If it's five**  

### 2 **or 10 percent, I mean, that's pretty -- when** 

### 3 **you're talking about, oh, you can't have any** 

### 4 **variability, yet we're saying you can be up** 

### 5 **to 10 percent off, that just -- I mean,** 

### 6 **you're talking about variability that might** 

### 7 **have a half percent -- in our boiler** 

### 8 **industry, and every one in our -- from our** 

### 9 **side of the industry, it's -- I think you've** 

### 10 **got the one side is going about -- they want** 

### 11 **the DOE to list their efficiencies, and it's** 

### 12 **going to be the most accurate efficiency they** 

### 13 **have ever listed.** 

### 14 **And anyone that can't, you know,** 

### 15 **list its accurate efficiency can -- you know,** 

### 16 **they're going to use it in their sales** 

### 17 **literature and everything like that. Where** 

### 18 **the DOE just wants the minimum efficiency** 

### 19 **requirement, we would like to list that, yes,** 

### 20 **we comply, or no, we don't comply, and save** 

### 21 **all of the accuracy efficiency tests for the** 

### 22 **third party agencies like AHRI or UL or CSA**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 or anyone that wants to do that. But --**  

### 2 **MR. KLEISS: John, this is Jeff** 

### 3 **Kleiss. This is not just about compliance** 

### 4 **with the minimum efficiency. This is about** 

### 5 **verification of the claimed ratings.** 

### 6 **MR. HALLEY: Well, what is the** 

### 7 **claimed ratings are we will meet the DOE** 

### 8 **minimum efficiency standards, and that's all,** 

### 9 **not a specific number?** 

### 10 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, so DOE does** 

### 11 **require you to provide a number. You are** 

### 12 **allowed to conservatively rate at the** 

### 13 **standard, so you would -- it sounds like what** 

### 14 **you would want to be doing is to rate it at** 

### 15 **whatever the standard is for that particular** 

### 16 **model.** 

### 17 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: But you'd still have** 

### 19 **to do verification testing.** 

### 20 **MS. BARHYDT: And so if you rated** 

### 21 **it at the standard, then the verification** 

### 22 **would be verifying that it meets the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 standard.**  

### 2 **MR. HALLEY: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: So in light of these** 

### 4 **clarifications, again, let me ask about** 

### 5 **concerns with one test, one verification** 

### 6 **test, on a product chosen by DOE. And let's** 

### 7 **also focus --** 

### 8 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 9 **Sutphen.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Go ahead, John.** 

### 11 **MR. SUTPHEN: There is also the** 

### 12 **point where there's sizes of product that are** 

### 13 **covered that we cannot physically test, and** 

### 14 **no one that you can pay can physically test** 

### 15 **them without buying brand-new equipment and** 

### 16 **spending over a million dollars to do it.** 

### 17 **So it's just not possible because** 

### 18 **you're talking about up to two million, two** 

### 19 **and a half, you know, maybe up to five** 

### 20 **million, where, you know, we can have 50 or** 

### 21 **60 million BTU input boilers on a common** 

### 22 **basis. So I don't know how you -- how we're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 going to settle the question that -- or**  

### 2 **verify that on a yearly basis.** 

### 3 **MR. HALLEY: It's a lot easier** 

### 4 **for the smaller end of the marketplace to do** 

### 5 **this repeat testing, because it's relatively** 

### 6 **inexpensive from not only installing it in a** 

### 7 **test facility but also, you know, the fuel** 

### 8 **bill and that sort of thing and the time to** 

### 9 **test, whereas when you get into the larger** 

### 10 **stuff it is a lot of money to test. So it's** 

### 11 **not necessarily a fair comparison I don't** 

### 12 **think.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: So if we let you** 

### 14 **test it in your facility, does that change** 

### 15 **anything?** 

### 16 **MR. HALLEY: Still a lot of money** 

### 17 **for fuel and installing it in the test** 

### 18 **facility.** 

### 19 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 20 **Sutphen. We don't have the facility to test** 

### 21 **the larger products at the requirements of** 

### 22 **the BTS-2000.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So are those**  

### 2 **the same products that you are seeking a test** 

### 3 **procedure waiver for? Or are those different** 

### 4 **--** 

### 5 **MR. SUTPHEN: Correct.** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: -- products?** 

### 7 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 8 **Sutphen. It's the same product that we're** 

### 9 **seeking a waiver for. And we don't know of a** 

### 10 **single test facility in the United States** 

### 11 **that can test our products to the BTS-2000.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So assuming** 

### 13 **that we did get a test procedure waiver for** 

### 14 **you, then at that point it would be testing** 

### 15 **to whatever that test procedure waiver** 

### 16 **specified. So presumably whatever you are** 

### 17 **requesting is something that you can test to** 

### 18 **in-house, is that correct?** 

### 19 **PARTICIPANT: Laura, would you** 

### 20 **say that again, please?** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes. So what I was** 

### 22 **asking is, for the products for which they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 are requesting a waiver, if we were to grant**  

### 2 **that waiver, presumably what they are** 

### 3 **requesting as their alternate test method is** 

### 4 **something that they can actually perform in** 

### 5 **house. And I was wondering if that --** 

### 6 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 7 **Sutphen. Based on our waiver, saying that we** 

### 8 **want to test the steam boiler, we would be** 

### 9 **able to do that in-house.** 

### 10 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 11 **HTP. With the discussion we had at the last** 

### 12 **ASRAC meeting, the followup question I'd have** 

### 13 **to ask is if you would be able to obtain** 

### 14 **17025, because my concern is that very large** 

### 15 **products, it's going to be very difficult for** 

### 16 **manufacturers to obtain 17025, and very small** 

### 17 **businesses are going to be in the same** 

### 18 **situation.** 

### 19 **MR. HALLEY: I would say that** 

### 20 **it's going to be impossible for the** 

### 21 **manufacturers to get 17025 approval. You** 

### 22 **know, the facilities, they are just not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 compatible with that sort of an approval.**  

### 2 **MS. BARHYDT: Is there something** 

### 3 **else that the Department could look to to** 

### 4 **verify the ability of the lab to meet the** 

### 5 **same sort of criteria without that** 

### 6 **accreditation?** 

### 7 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 8 **HTP. The approach that most manufacturers** 

### 9 **take is they go through all of the** 

### 10 **requirements of 17025, but it's the act of** 

### 11 **obtaining the actual certification is where** 

### 12 **most of us draw the line. So calibration** 

### 13 **records, yes, those are typically something** 

### 14 **that we could provide a list of the people** 

### 15 **that complete the testing.** 

### 16 **Yes, we could provide, along with** 

### 17 **a copy of their resume or their experience** 

### 18 **and training history, we can provide that** 

### 19 **information, yes. The third party with DOE** 

### 20 **is a point of discussion also.** 

### 21 **MR. KLEISS: But what is it that** 

### 22 **is not doable that you -- the reason that you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 cannot get 17025?**  

### 2 **MR. HALLEY: I just think that** 

### 3 **17025 is looking for a lot of things that** 

### 4 **don't exist in a manufacturing facility. A** 

### 5 **lot of this testing is done at the end of the** 

### 6 **production line in a fire test area, and** 

### 7 **that's just not compatible with the -- you** 

### 8 **know, 17025.** 

### 9 **As I've said before, the basic** 

### 10 **requirements of an accurate test are a test** 

### 11 **procedure that's agreed on, capable people,** 

### 12 **and, you know, they are not going to be** 

### 13 **allowed to test boilers of this size unless** 

### 14 **they are capable and competent people, well** 

### 15 **qualified, and extra instrumentation that has** 

### 16 **been properly calibrated and traceable and** 

### 17 **necessary for some standard, and, you know,** 

### 18 **the ability to reduce the test data to** 

### 19 **meaningful numbers in the end, meaningful** 

### 20 **efficiencies.** 

### 21 **And beyond that, you know, we** 

### 22 **have tested in the past on a railroad car the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 side of the plant powerhouse because we got**  

### 2 **the fuel supplies, the electrical supplies,** 

### 3 **from the plant powerhouse out onto the** 

### 4 **railroad car. And we tested basically on the** 

### 5 **flight car, and the whole town could hear the** 

### 6 **thing firing. It made that much noise. That** 

### 7 **was, you know, 25, 30 million BTU input. So** 

### 8 **you can get adequate test data without a** 

### 9 **fancy facility is what I'm trying to say.** 

### 10 **MR. HARDIN: This is Travis. For** 

### 11 **the smaller boilers -- and when I say** 

### 12 **"smaller," I'm saying like, you know, less** 

### 13 **than 12-1/2 million, if you are currently** 

### 14 **getting those safety tested in your facility,** 

### 15 **that could serve a purpose for meeting, you** 

### 16 **know, currently ISO 17025 requirements, such** 

### 17 **as when we use the UL static test program,** 

### 18 **you know, we are following the rules in** 

### 19 **general of 17025.** 

### 20 **But I do agree with you, Geoff,** 

### 21 **when you get up into the large boilers,** 

### 22 **really anything above 12-1/2 million, it is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 incredibly difficult to --**  

### 2 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 3 **MR. HARDIN: -- hot water boiler,** 

### 4 **if not impossible. And then, a steam boiler** 

### 5 **is a little easier to test, but, yeah, with** 

### 6 **the fuel and all of the requirements for** 

### 7 **water and --** 

### 8 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah. Well, let me** 

### 9 **ask you -- okay. Travis, let me ask you, is** 

### 10 **there anything that you see where the current** 

### 11 **UL testing of these boilers could be easily** 

### 12 **added to or adapted to meet some of the** 

### 13 **requirements of what DOE is looking for, up** 

### 14 **to 12-1/2 million?** 

### 15 **MR. HARDIN: Well, the standards** 

### 16 **in question, you know, that we currently use** 

### 17 **for the listing and certification, you know,** 

### 18 **of the test equipment essentially is going to** 

### 19 **be constrained. But, you know, efficiency is** 

### 20 **not a safety test, so --** 

### 21 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. HARDIN: -- you know, I think**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 it could be done in conjunction. But at the**  

### 2 **same time, you know, depending on what is** 

### 3 **decided, I don't know if it would be added to** 

### 4 **the standard.** 

### 5 **MR. HALLEY: Well, you've got --** 

### 6 **if you're going to do that, you've got to be** 

### 7 **able to run for a longer period of time than,** 

### 8 **you know, we possibly run on a standard UL** 

### 9 **safety test, and that, you know, a sort of** 

### 10 **operating pressure that is compatible with** 

### 11 **the boiler, which is not necessarily always** 

### 12 **done on a UL safety test.** 

### 13 **MR. HARDIN: Right. And the** 

### 14 **other thing about safety is, you know, we** 

### 15 **choose a representative sample. We don't** 

### 16 **necessarily --** 

### 17 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 18 **MR. HARDIN: -- test the whole** 

### 19 **product line.** 

### 20 **MR. HALLEY: Right. Yeah.** 

### 21 **MS. BARHYDT: So, Geoff, you've** 

### 22 **said several times that the firing area at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 the end of the line is not conducive to**  

### 2 **17025. Can you just explain to me a little** 

### 3 **bit more about what it is about that area** 

### 4 **that makes it --** 

### 5 **MR. HALLEY: Well --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Because I have no** 

### 7 **mental model of what you're describing.** 

### 8 **MR. HALLEY: You probably ought** 

### 9 **to go into a boiler plant and look. It's not** 

### 10 **a particularly clean environment for a start** 

### 11 **in -- you know, it's a heavy manufacturing** 

### 12 **environment, a lot of overhead cranes in many** 

### 13 **cases, where, you know, boilers are moving** 

### 14 **around in the air, so you've got to watch out** 

### 15 **for things.** 

### 16 **The fire test area is -- it** 

### 17 **doesn't typically have a proper place to** 

### 18 **vent, control the steam pressure and vent it.** 

### 19 **They normally do a fire test just to check** 

### 20 **the safety controls and rough-in the** 

### 21 **combustion. That's done in the field by, you** 

### 22 **know, a certified startup technician.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 But they just want to make sure**  

### 2 **all of the safety controls work before it** 

### 3 **leaves the plant, they do have a supply of** 

### 4 **water, and they do have a supply of fuel,** 

### 5 **which is --** 

### 6 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. HALLEY: -- meets the rated** 

### 8 **capacity of the boiler.** 

### 9 **MS. BARHYDT: But that's --** 

### 10 **MR. HALLEY: It's got some** 

### 11 **elements missing.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: But that sounds to** 

### 13 **me like it's not a place where they could** 

### 14 **actually conduct the test at all, then, as** 

### 15 **opposed to it not being able to meet 17025.** 

### 16 **MR. HALLEY: It's going to be** 

### 17 **very difficult to test, to make a reasonable** 

### 18 **test to capacity and pressure. In fact, it's** 

### 19 **going to be -- obviously, I don't know what** 

### 20 **every manufacturer who belongs to ABMA has in** 

### 21 **the way of capabilities. I do know -- I** 

### 22 **conducted a survey recently, and I do know**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 that most of them have the fuel supply to get**  

### 2 **to most of the capacities they produce, not** 

### 3 **necessarily all of them.** 

### 4 **But, you know, they've got enough** 

### 5 **to be able to test and say, "Okay. This** 

### 6 **boiler is safe, and it's not going to be a** 

### 7 **significant problem when it gets into the** 

### 8 **field to be started up properly by an** 

### 9 **approved technician."** 

### 10 **MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss.** 

### 11 **Let's talk about some of the specifics of** 

### 12 **what you need in order to do the efficiency** 

### 13 **test. For these products we're talking about** 

### 14 **combustion efficiency test, so you have to** 

### 15 **have a calibrated combustion analyzer.** 

### 16 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. KLEISS: You need to be able** 

### 18 **to measure the water temperature, you need to** 

### 19 **measure the fuel flow rate --** 

### 20 **MR. HALLEY: Right.** 

### 21 **MR. KLEISS: -- a barometer.** 

### 22 **What else? Let's walk through this. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 what is it that is preventing us from saying**  

### 2 **that we should do a 17025? And also, with** 

### 3 **respect to that, there are some advantages** 

### 4 **maybe for these small, you know, production** 

### 5 **line -- small volume production line, large** 

### 6 **product units, as far as part of 17025 is the** 

### 7 **process of controlling the products, knowing** 

### 8 **that, you know, what you're testing, keeping** 

### 9 **track of it and recordkeeping, and actually** 

### 10 **there are some advantages to low volume as** 

### 11 **far as writing a procedure and making sure** 

### 12 **that you're keeping your records properly.** 

### 13 **So --** 

### 14 **MR. HALLEY: John, do you want to** 

### 15 **respond to that? You are more -- you are** 

### 16 **closer to that these days than I am.** 

### 17 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 18 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks.** 

### 19 **MR. HALLEY: Sorry. I think I** 

### 20 **lost connection for a while, but carry on,** 

### 21 **John.** 

### 22 **MR. SUTPHEN: When we do testing,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 we are using calibrated equipment that**  

### 2 **complies with the 17025, but we are not -- we** 

### 3 **are at a certified lab with 17025 or 17065,** 

### 4 **or whatever we were talking about last** 

### 5 **meeting. And I think it -- you're putting a** 

### 6 **lot of extra expense.** 

### 7 **It all depends how you write it.** 

### 8 **Do you want us to comply with it, or be** 

### 9 **certified for it? Once we figure out the** 

### 10 **distinction between those, I think we can** 

### 11 **have a better answer for you.** 

### 12 **MS. BARHYDT: Well, let's take --** 

### 13 **MR. SUTPHEN: I don't think** 

### 14 **anyone really has an issue complying with** 

### 15 **this, but getting certified to it I think is** 

### 16 **-- you know, people are not going to like** 

### 17 **that too much.** 

### 18 **MR. KOJAK: This is Mike Kojak** 

### 19 **with UL. Laura, this is the same kind of** 

### 20 **thing we were talking about in the last** 

### 21 **meeting, the way UL has a witness test data** 

### 22 **program, where, you know, a representative of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 the ISO 17025 lab goes to the client's**  

### 2 **facility and witnesses the test, and, you** 

### 3 **know, makes sure that the instrumentation is** 

### 4 **calibrated properly or, you know, they can** 

### 5 **even bring some ISO 17025 accredited,** 

### 6 **calibrated instruments from, you know, our** 

### 7 **location to the client's location to install** 

### 8 **in the setup process.** 

### 9 **So when the test is being done,** 

### 10 **it's witnessed by an ISO 17025 person, and it** 

### 11 **also is made sure that it -- the calibration** 

### 12 **of the equipment is done properly or they can** 

### 13 **supply their own equipment when they come** 

### 14 **there.** 

### 15 **MS. BARHYDT: So going back to --** 

### 16 **MR. KOJAK: So what I'm trying to** 

### 17 **say is, if Cleaver-Brooks has, you know, the** 

### 18 **utilities and the piping and, you know, the** 

### 19 **infrastructure to run those types of tests,** 

### 20 **but they just don't meet the level of ISO** 

### 21 **17025 as the definition because, you know,** 

### 22 **they can't technically become ISO 17025, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 way we were talking about establishing the**  

### 2 **other programs was that they would have to be** 

### 3 **-- there would be an oversight of -- you** 

### 4 **know, it would -- the two choices would be** 

### 5 **that testing would have to be done at a** 

### 6 **17025-accredited third party lab or be** 

### 7 **witnessed by a third party lab, the testing.** 

### 8 **So if the manufacturer, like** 

### 9 **Cleaver-Brooks, has the facilities, if they** 

### 10 **are just being oversighted by a 17025 third** 

### 11 **party lab, that would be the same type of** 

### 12 **thing that we are talking about with CRE and** 

### 13 **commercial HVAC.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Right.** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: That is exactly the** 

### 16 **kind of certification that we have here at** 

### 17 **Lochinvar.** 

### 18 **MS. BARHYDT: So, Geoff Halley,** 

### 19 **what I thought I heard you say was that you** 

### 20 **didn't think that some of the manufacturers** 

### 21 **have the infrastructure to do the test, at** 

### 22 **least certainly not to the level of meeting**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 the requirements of 17025, whether that**  

### 2 **certification is actually obtained or not.** 

### 3 **But I think what I heard John** 

### 4 **Sutphen say is that he thinks that the** 

### 5 **manufacturers do have the infrastructure and** 

### 6 **the capability of meeting the requirements.** 

### 7 **It is a question of the expense of actually** 

### 8 **getting the certification. So if both of you** 

### 9 **all could speak to whether I have correctly** 

### 10 **characterized your statements or --** 

### 11 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 12 **Sutphen, Cleaver-Brooks. I was speaking more** 

### 13 **on our behalf instead of the industry's. I'm** 

### 14 **sure there are a lot of our competitors and** 

### 15 **boiler manufacturers that can, but I'm not** 

### 16 **aware that all of them can. And Geoffrey** 

### 17 **might have a better understanding on that.** 

### 18 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah. That's more** 

### 19 **or less what I was going to say, that** 

### 20 **Cleaver-Brooks -- you've got to realize that** 

### 21 **Cleaver-Brooks is the biggest boiler** 

### 22 **manufacturer in this part of the industry,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 and they have a lot of the right things, so**  

### 2 **it comes down to expense.** 

### 3 **But with the small manufacturers,** 

### 4 **you know, they are -- they just don't have** 

### 5 **the facility that Cleaver-Brooks or the** 

### 6 **companies I used to work for have. And it's** 

### 7 **really going to push people, be pushing them** 

### 8 **hard. They are going to be hard-pressed to** 

### 9 **do a lot of the things that DOE requires or** 

### 10 **wants.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: And, John --** 

### 12 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.** 

### 13 **14 MS. BARHYDT: John, is --**  

### 15 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.** 

### 16 **Go ahead.** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: So, John, for your** 

### 18 **company, it sounded like your biggest concern** 

### 19 **was whether or not the actual 17025** 

### 20 **accreditation was required, but would you be** 

### 21 **more comfortable with it if we just said that** 

### 22 **the general requirements of 17025 had to be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 met but not the actual certification**  

### 2 **obtained?** 

### 3 **MR. SUTPHEN: We would have to** 

### 4 **read the document to make a comment, but I** 

### 5 **guess we would lean towards that being true.** 

### 6 **But until we actually understand exactly** 

### 7 **what 17025 is, we can't really comment on it.** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers** 

### 10 **with PVI. Two points. One, with reference** 

### 11 **to 17025, we have heard several times -- and** 

### 12 **it seems to me that any one of the three** 

### 13 **would be reasonable in this case -- that the** 

### 14 **lab doesn't have to have 17025 for two of** 

### 15 **those techniques. One is to have the lab --** 

### 16 **an independent 17025 lab come to their** 

### 17 **facility and run the test using their own** 

### 18 **instruments.** 

### 19 **If the manufacturer has properly** 

### 20 **calibrated instruments, then the 17025 third** 

### 21 **party lab could come in and witness test** 

### 22 **using their instruments if they were**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 satisfactory. Or the third would be if the**  

### 2 **manufacturer has 17025 through a third party** 

### 3 **lab.** 

### 4 **So the first two of those don't** 

### 5 **require the manufacturer to have 17025, or** 

### 6 **even to have the instruments necessary. They** 

### 7 **just have to have the infrastructure to be** 

### 8 **able to provide the energy needed to run the** 

### 9 **test.** 

### 10 **The second point is there are** 

### 11 **unique issues being able to test products** 

### 12 **over the 12-1/2 million. And where I'm an** 

### 13 **advocate of one test per year in any event, I** 

### 14 **could probably get comfortable with that not** 

### 15 **being the case over 12-1/2 million.** 

### 16 **MR. EISNER: Would you say that** 

### 17 **again, that last part?** 

### 18 **MR. MYERS: Yes. I would be** 

### 19 **willing to talk about having three levels** 

### 20 **instead of two. We were trying to break it** 

### 21 **into under and over. But to have up to two** 

### 22 **and a half million, we do whatever we say we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 have to do, which has not been locked in yet,**  

### 2 **but we decide what we do for less than two** 

### 3 **and a half million, two and a half and less.** 

### 4 **Over two and a half million up to 12-1/2** 

### 5 **million have one per year. And then none per** 

### 6 **year over 12-1/2 million because of their** 

### 7 **unique circumstance. This is the** 

### 8 **verification side.** 

### 9 **MR. HALLEY: I'd like to follow** 

### 10 **on from what Frank has just said, and the --** 

### 11 **looking at the sort of sales volume based on** 

### 12 **size, the 12-1/2 million BTU would capture** 

### 13 **the vast majority of the large boilers. I** 

### 14 **don't know whether John wants to add to that** 

### 15 **or not. But from what I recall, the vast** 

### 16 **majority of the larger boilers would be** 

### 17 **caught under the 12-1/2 million size limit.** 

### 18 **MR. EISNER: And did you say** 

### 19 **you'd be okay with that, with what Frank** 

### 20 **proposed for two and a half --** 

### 21 **MR. HALLEY: I think -- you know,** 

### 22 **I'd have to check with the membership of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 ABMA, but I would think they would be -- you**  

### 2 **know, off the cuff, I think they would be** 

### 3 **reasonably comfortable with that.** 

### 4 **MR. EISNER: And, John, what --** 

### 5 **MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss.** 

### 6 **MR. EISNER: Yes?** 

### 7 **MR. KLEISS: And one of the** 

### 8 **things that we brought up in discussions this** 

### 9 **past week was the idea of having a selection,** 

### 10 **not being required to test it immediately,** 

### 11 **but not being allowed to sell a certain model** 

### 12 **until it was tested. And maybe for some of** 

### 13 **the extremely large units you could say even** 

### 14 **for the size range of not selling a unit** 

### 15 **beyond such and so size until one unit is** 

### 16 **tested, given some period of time, so that** 

### 17 **there is at least still some oversight, even** 

### 18 **for the very large products.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: So when they produce** 

### 21 **something for sale, because nobody is going** 

### 22 **to want to -- it's just not practical to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 produce these for testing, but to say, you**  

### 2 **know, you've got -- for a unit over the 12.5** 

### 3 **million to say, you know, you don't -- you** 

### 4 **don't sell this unit until it's tested.** 

### 5 **So somebody places an order for** 

### 6 **one, you build it, and then while you've got** 

### 7 **it there you test it before you ship it out,** 

### 8 **say maybe on a -- whether it's once every two** 

### 9 **years, once every five years.** 

### 10 **MR. MYERS: Jeff, this is Frank** 

### 11 **Myers, PVI again. When we get into stuff 12-** 

### 12 **1/2 million and over, you can almost make the** 

### 13 **case that what the manufacturer is building** 

### 14 **is not a complete boiler. And let me** 

### 15 **describe why I mean that, and that is it's** 

### 16 **almost to the point it can't operate without** 

### 17 **wrapping a building around it.** 

### 18 **You have to have this tremendous** 

### 19 **supply of energy and tremendous heat takeoff,** 

### 20 **heat consumption. And until you have it** 

### 21 **installed in a building, it's almost not in a** 

### 22 **position to test, especially if you're**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 talking about not just 12-1/2 million, but 30**  

### 2 **million, 60 million.** 

### 3 **They get to a point to where it's** 

### 4 **just not practical. And I think 12-1/2** 

### 5 **embodies that spirit. That's the reason a** 

### 6 **lot of test standards and a lot of control** 

### 7 **requirements all either stop or change** 

### 8 **dramatically at 12-1/2 million.** 

### 9 **MR. KLEISS: Okay. Good point.** 

### 10 **I accept that.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: So we are running** 

### 12 **out of time. I wanted to go back to one** 

### 13 **issue that someone raised earlier. And if** 

### 14 **anyone has a copy of BTS-2000 in front of** 

### 15 **them, there was some question as to whether** 

### 16 **or not the test procedure accounted for any** 

### 17 **other energy, particularly electrical energy,** 

### 18 **consumed by the boiler. And somebody** 

### 19 **suggested that it did.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: I did open up a copy** 

### 21 **and look through it -- this is Jeff -- and I** 

### 22 **could not see where it was requiring**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 electrical power consumption for a combustion**  

### 2 **efficiency test.** 

### 3 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I couldn't** 

### 4 **either. I just wanted to doublecheck.** 

### 5 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers,** 

### 6 **and I agree with that. I was in error. Our** 

### 7 **company does that, but that is because we** 

### 8 **have a common practice between our water** 

### 9 **heaters and boilers. But I, too, pulled out** 

### 10 **BTS-2000, and the gentleman from Cleaver** 

### 11 **Brooks is correct. There is no electrical** 

### 12 **requirement.** 

### 13 **MS. BARHYDT: Jeff Kleiss, one** 

### 14 **more quick question for you. So were you** 

### 15 **withdrawing your alternative proposal to** 

### 16 **verification test very large, only prior to** 

### 17 **sale?** 

### 18 **MR. KLEISS: Yes.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: And, John Sutphen,** 

### 21 **what was your reaction to the two and a half** 

### 22 **to 12-1/2 and above 12-1/2 proposal?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 MR. SUTPHEN: I still believe**  

### 2 **there is going to be companies that are** 

### 3 **unable to test, you know, an eight million,** 

### 4 **10 million size boiler, even over four** 

### 5 **million. It's going to be very difficult for** 

### 6 **some companies to even perform these tests on** 

### 7 **a product that size.** 

### 8 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah, I'll go along** 

### 9 **with that. I know of one company, maybe two,** 

### 10 **that would have a tough time doing that.** 

### 11 **MS. JAKOBS: This is Diane. And** 

### 12 **so do you think that those companies would** 

### 13 **make a two and a half million BTU boiler? So** 

### 14 **I was thinking maybe the -- similar to what** 

### 15 **we were doing with the HVAC where the** 

### 16 **verification testing would be limited to part** 

### 17 **of the product line, so that you would use --** 

### 18 **you would test a smaller boiler to verify** 

### 19 **that the manufacturer's processes were such** 

### 20 **that there was sufficient repeatability in** 

### 21 **their processes.** 

### 22 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah. I'd have to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 check. I'm not familiar with, you know, the**  

### 2 **entire capacity range of the manufacturers'** 

### 3 **product lines that I just sort of mentioned** 

### 4 **where they'd have trouble. But I know they** 

### 5 **don't go to 12-1/2 million. They are less** 

### 6 **than 12-1/2 million.** 

### 7 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers** 

### 8 **with PVI. I have a question for Travis with** 

### 9 **UL. Can Underwriters test at their facility** 

### 10 **a 12-1/2 million BTU water boiler at 80** 

### 11 **percent efficiency?** 

### 12 **MR. HARDIN: No. I mean, I agree** 

### 13 **with pretty much everybody on the call that** 

### 14 **anything over 12 million is incredibly** 

### 15 **impractical. And actually, you know, really** 

### 16 **anything over five million is just about as** 

### 17 **impractical from the standpoint of having** 

### 18 **enough facilities around the country to be** 

### 19 **able to do this. That's just my --** 

### 20 **MR. SUTPHEN: This is John** 

### 21 **Sutphen with Cleaver-Brooks. I think the 12-** 

### 22 **1/2 should be lowered to four million, four**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 or five million. That's the maximum capacity**  

### 2 **of most third party labs in a lot of boiler** 

### 3 **manufacturers. I don't think -- if you only** 

### 4 **have a third party lab that does this for a** 

### 5 **living being able to test it, I don't see why** 

### 6 **you should make that for anyone.** 

### 7 **MR. EISNER: Well, I thought we** 

### 8 **should --** 

### 9 **MR. SUTPHEN: Through the current** 

### 10 **certification standard.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: I thought what you** 

### 12 **were saying was some might not be able to** 

### 13 **test between two and a half and 12-1/2. I** 

### 14 **implied from that -- inferred from that that** 

### 15 **others could. So if it can be done, why** 

### 16 **can't some do it when others can't? Is it** 

### 17 **simply because they're small and --** 

### 18 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Jeff.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: Jeff Kleiss with** 

### 21 **Lochinvar. We currently do make a five** 

### 22 **million BTU per hour water boiler. And we do**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 test it in an ISO 17025 lab.**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: So my question is,** 

### 3 **why can't DOE require that all of them be** 

### 4 **tested? What is the problem that some of the** 

### 5 **companies have? It's too expensive? Is that** 

### 6 **the only objection?** 

### 7 **MR. HALLEY: That's one of the** 

### 8 **reasons. But the problem with hot water** 

### 9 **boilers, certainly the ABMA part of the** 

### 10 **industry, I can tell you that the company I** 

### 11 **worked for had probably at the time the most** 

### 12 **advanced product development lab in the** 

### 13 **country. And we can test to about eight** 

### 14 **million on a hot water boiler because that** 

### 15 **was governed by the size of the heat sink.** 

### 16 **We had the ability to remove the heat that** 

### 17 **was generated by the boiler. So, you know,** 

### 18 **just as -- that lab does not exist anymore.** 

### 19 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers** 

### 20 **with PVI. Neil, what you run into with labs** 

### 21 **-- if third party labs are available to send** 

### 22 **it to, and can test that size equipment, then**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 we could -- you could continue to say, okay,**  

### 2 **your eight million BTU piece of equipment has** 

### 3 **to be tested. If you don't want to do it,** 

### 4 **send it to a third party.** 

### 5 **But when there's no third party** 

### 6 **to send it to, then things start becoming** 

### 7 **major problems, like there is inadequate** 

### 8 **water supply in your area to be able to take** 

### 9 **such a tremendous amount of water to run a** 

### 10 **water boiler test that there is inadequate** 

### 11 **supply of water available, that there is** 

### 12 **inadequate gas supply to test those sizes.** 

### 13 **So it can get to a point where a** 

### 14 **company simply cannot, even though it's a** 

### 15 **federal requirement and they have no** 

### 16 **alternative to send it to a third party lab,** 

### 17 **if there's no third party lab to be able to** 

### 18 **run the test.** 

### 19 **MR. EISNER: So what you're** 

### 20 **saying is you're agreeing that the 12-1/2** 

### 21 **should be lowered to the maximum that an** 

### 22 **independent lab could handle? Can I --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 MR. MYERS: Five million BTUs?**  

### 2 **MR. EISNER: So you're saying it** 

### 3 **should be -- 12-1/2 should be lowered.** 

### 4 **MR. MYERS: If we're going to be** 

### 5 **-- once I heard that one of the largest labs,** 

### 6 **Underwriters, doesn't have the capacity to be** 

### 7 **able to test that large, can go to eight** 

### 8 **million BTUs, I think the five million BTU** 

### 9 **requirement becomes more reasonable. And** 

### 10 **five, just because that's a common break** 

### 11 **point in the industry --** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: So let me ask** 

### 13 **whether others would agree that we should** 

### 14 **have the same breakup, but it should be two** 

### 15 **and a half and under, or under two and a** 

### 16 **half, two and a half to five, and five and** 

### 17 **above. And five and above would --** 

### 18 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 19 **HTP.** 

### 20 **MR. EISNER: Go ahead, Phil.** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: I'm concerned** 

### 22 **because I know for a fact there are several**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 labs that work on bottled gas with a closed**  

### 2 **loop cooling system that work up to five** 

### 3 **million on their own, and that's because of a** 

### 4 **local facilities issue. So I know those** 

### 5 **types of things can be overcome.** 

### 6 **I think if we reduce it below** 

### 7 **that level, below 12-1/2 million, we are not** 

### 8 **going to achieve what the Department wants us** 

### 9 **to and be equitable across all of the** 

### 10 **different manufacturers.** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Other thoughts?** 

### 12 **MS. JAKOBS: So what I'm hearing** 

### 13 **is you want a level playing field between** 

### 14 **manufacturers who make smaller equipment that** 

### 15 **can serve the same building with multiples as** 

### 16 **a large equipment manufacturer who might only** 

### 17 **have two boilers. The rules should be the** 

### 18 **same because they're competing against each** 

### 19 **other.** 

### 20 **MR. HALLEY: Well, yeah, the** 

### 21 **problem is the cost of testing the larger** 

### 22 **equipment is much more than the test of --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 the cost of testing the smaller equipment.**  

### 2 **You know, you've got that sort of cost** 

### 3 **differential.** 

### 4 **MS. JAKOBS: Right.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: So we're out of** 

### 6 **time today, but I think we have a few** 

### 7 **proposals for people to think about, possibly** 

### 8 **go back, talk to other manufacturers about,** 

### 9 **and certainly we will be talking here. So** 

### 10 **does anyone have any final thoughts or** 

### 11 **comments that they want to share before we** 

### 12 **shut it down today?** 

### 13 **MR. MYERS: This is Frank Myers.** 

### 14 **Are you going to post that on the site so** 

### 15 **that we can all have access to what you've** 

### 16 **jotted up on the screen?** 

### 17 **MS. BARHYDT: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. MYERS: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. STEPHENS: And the other** 

### 20 **sheet you made also with all of the** 

### 21 **definitions?** 

### 22 **MS. BARHYDT: We will put it up,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 too.**  

### 2 **MR. STEPHENS: Wonderful.** 

### 3 **MR. EISNER: Does anybody have** 

### 4 **any final thoughts about labs and whether we** 

### 5 **need to do more checking on the lab front to** 

### 6 **see what they do? Or do you all think we've** 

### 7 **heard the maximum capacities here?** 

### 8 **MR. KLEISS: As manufacturers, we** 

### 9 **have I think a pretty good grasp of that,** 

### 10 **because most of us have run into that** 

### 11 **ceiling.** 

### 12 **MR. EISNER: Okay. So there's a** 

### 13 **general agreement it should be five million** 

### 14 **in terms of what the labs can do.** 

### 15 **MR. KLEISS: Five million sounds** 

### 16 **like a reasonable ceiling.** 

### 17 **MR. SUTPHEN: Cleaver-Brooks** 

### 18 **agrees.** 

### 19 **MR. HALLEY: Yeah. I'll agree** 

### 20 **with five million, but I think you -- so long** 

### 21 **as it's an independent lab. I think if** 

### 22 **you're going to try and switch into a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 competing manufacturer's lab, then you've got**  

### 2 **a real problem with, you know, competitive** 

### 3 **situations and that sort of thing.** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 5 **HTP. Didn't Travis just mention that UL can** 

### 6 **do up to 12 million?** 

### 7 **MR. MYERS: No.** 

### 8 **MR. HALLEY: No.** 

### 9 **MR. MYERS: He said eight** 

### 10 **million, around eight million.** 

### 11 **MS. BARHYDT: Travis, one more** 

### 12 **time with nobody talking over you.** 

### 13 **MR. HARDIN: We cannot do up to** 

### 14 **12-1/2 million. I actually said it was more** 

### 15 **prevalent around five million. So I would** 

### 16 **agree with the five million threshold for** 

### 17 **having the capacity. And I don't know the** 

### 18 **capacity of our competitors, but I will** 

### 19 **assume it would be somewhere along those** 

### 20 **lines.** 

### 21 **MR. EISNER: Okay. Any other** 

### 22 **last thoughts?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 (No response.)**  

### 2 **Well, thank you all for joining** 

### 3 **us this morning. I think there has been some** 

### 4 **good discussion. Don't know how close we are** 

### 5 **to some kind of resolution, but, as Laura** 

### 6 **said, give some thought to it, so when we** 

### 7 **meet again nobody says they have to go back** 

### 8 **and get more information.** 

### 9 **MR. KLEISS: Will we have another** 

### 10 **conference call like this?** 

### 11 **MR. EISNER: Do you think it** 

### 12 **would be helpful?** 

### 13 **MR. KLEISS: Yes.** 

### 14 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I will see** 

### 15 **what we can do about another Doodle poll.** 

### 16 **MR. KLEISS: Other guys, do you** 

### 17 **agree?** 

### 18 **PARTICIPANT: Yes.** 

### 19 **MS. BARHYDT: I heard at least** 

### 20 **one yes.** 

### 21 **MR. HALLEY: Make it two.** 

### 22 **PARTICIPANT: Here's another yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay, okay. We'll**  

### 2 **get that --** 

### 3 **PARTICIPANT: Make it three, as** 

### 4 **long as it's next week.** 

### 5 **MS. BARHYDT: What was that?** 

### 6 **PARTICIPANT: Can it be next week** 

### 7 **when Peter Molvie is available?** 

### 8 **MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We will do** 

### 9 **our best.** 

### 10 **MR. EISNER: Thank you, all.** 

### 11 **(Whereupon, at 11:09 a.m., the proceedings in** 

### 12 **the foregoing matter were** 

### 13 **concluded.)** 

### 14 **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106 A ability4:17 8:11,13

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84:6 17065 82:3 1800s 22:11,12 1950 14:1 1968 22:17 1969 14:15 1970 31:2 2 2 53:5 2.5 24:3 54:17 2000 13:11 15:17202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118 35:13 2013 1:8 2575:7 3 30 27:15 75:7 92:1 300,000 24:1 4 4 9:11 13:1 29:18

39:1 46:11 50:10 50:14 52:13,14 400,000 20:14 50:7 431.102 54:8 431.87 54:16 5 50 24:11 69:20 6 60 24:11 69:21 92:2 6075 1:12 7 795 26:18 27:5 50:6 8 80 95:10 9 9:00 1:12 9:06 3:2 950 1:12NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

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Discussion of Verification Programs for Commercial Packaged Boilers

US DOE

08-14-13

Washington, DC