1

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4 

### Proposed Revisions to Health and Environmental 5 

### Protection Standards for Uranium and Thorium 6 

### Mill Tailings, 40 CFR Part 192 7

8

9 

### 1:05 p.m. to 2:46 p.m. 10


### and 11 

### 6:09 p.m. to 6:52 p.m. 12 

### Tuesday, April 14, 2015 13

14

15

16

17

18 

### Embassy Suites Corpus Christi 19


### Padre Room 20 

### 4337 South Padre Island Drive 21 

### Corpus Christi, TX 98411 222

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### EPA PANEL: 1 

### GEORGE BROZOWSKI, Panel Chair, EPA Regional 2 

### Health Physicist, Region 6, Dallas, Texas 3


### INGRID ROSENCRANTZ, EPA Office of Radiation and 4 

### Indoor Air, Washington, D.C. 5 

### TOM PEAKE, EPA Office of Radiation and Indoor 6 

### Air, Washington, D.C. 7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

223

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 1


### C O N T E N T S 2


### PAGE 3


### INTRODUCTION - GEORGE BROZOWSKI 6 4


### INGRID ROSENCRANTZ 10 5 

### SAM FUGATE, Mayor, Kingsville, TX 13 6 

### CHARLES MAGUIRE, Director of Radioactive 15 7 

### Materials Division, Texas Commission on 8 

### Environmental Quality 9 

### DALE KOHLER, Texas Commission on 18 10 

### Environmental Quality and Groundwater 11 

### Protection Council 12 

### ART DOHMANN, Goliad County Groundwater 22 13 

### Conservation District Board of Directors 14 

### BRUCE DARLING, Geochemist 25 15 

### GEORGE BOKORNEY, Signal Equities, LLC 32 16 

### CHARLES SALSMAN, Signal Equities, LLC 34 17 

### CHES BLEVINS, Executive Director, Texas 35 18 

### Mining and Reclamation 19 

### DANE McCOIG, Vice-President, Uranium 40 20 

### Resources, Inc. 21

224

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1


### PAGE 2 

### MINA WILLIAMS, Coastal Bend Group, Sierra 47 3


### Club 4 

### VENICE SCHEURICH, Coastal Bend Group, 49 5 

### Sierra Club 6 

### MARK WALSH, Member, South Texas Opposes 52 7 

### Pollution 8 

### CRAIG WALL, Uranium Energy Corporation 54 9 

### TROUPE BREWER, Texas Mining and Reclamation 58 10 

### Association's Uranium Committee 11 

### CHARLES RAGLAND, Duval County Property 61 12


### Owner 13 

### BEN ESHLEMAN, Jim Hogg County Property 63 14


### Owner 15 

### PETER LUTHIGER, Vice-President, Mestena 67 16 

### Uranium 17 

### HARRY ANTHONY, Uranium Energy Corporation 73 18 

### and Uranium Producers of America 19 

### MICHAEL MAXSON, Appearing as an individual, 77 20 

### Employed as Operations Manager, Mestena 21 

### Uranium 225

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### C O N T E N T S (continued) 1


### PAGE 2 

### MARK PELIZZA, Independent Consultant 80 3 

### JAY MASTERSON, Background in Policy 85 4 

### Development 5

6


### E V E N I N G S E S S I O N 7 

### DICK MESSBARGER, Lives near Kingsville 99 8 

### Dome Mine 9 

### TERESA CARRILLO, Resident of Duval County 104 10 

### RAULIE IRWIN, President, Goliad County 107 11 

### Groundwater Conservation District 12 

### PAT CALHOUN, Goliad County Judge 109 13 

### PETER LUTHIGER, Vice-President, Mestena 115 14 

### Uranium 15 

### RAULIE IRWIN, President, Goliad County 119 16 

### Groundwater Conservation District 17 

### CARROLL NORRELL, Interested Citizen 123 18 

### VENICE SCHEURICH, Coastal Bend Group, 124 19 

### Polish Sierra Club 20

21

226

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### P R O C E E D I N G S 1


### A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Good afternoon, everyone. 3 

### My name is George Brozowski. I'm the Regional 4 

### Health Physicist from Region 6, Environmental 5 

### Protection Agency, located up in Dallas. 6 

### First things first. Thank you very much 7 

### for coming this afternoon knowing what the 8 

### weather was today and what we all had to go 9 

### through. And I've heard some of your horror 10 

### stories, and, you know, thank you again for 11 

### coming here. 12 

### I will be presiding over the hearing 13 

### today. And joining me at the table this 14 

### afternoon here, to my left here is Ingrid 15 

### Rosencrantz and Tom Peake from the Office of 16 

### Radiation and Indoor Air from our Headquarters in 17 

### Washington. 18 

### Just a couple of little housekeeping tips 19 

### here. If you need bathrooms, men's bathrooms are 20 

### all the way down towards the right; women's 21 

### bathrooms are all the way down towards the left. 22 

### And in case of an emergency, we will not use the 237

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### elevator, but we will either evacuate down to the 1 

### first floor through the stairs towards the right 2 

### or towards the left, go out towards the front 3 

### door. Okay? 4 

### Any questions with -- regarding to that? 5 

### (No response.) 6 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Having said that, 7 

### this hearing is now in session. 8 

### We are here today to listen and to 9 

### receive your comments on EPA's Proposed Revisions 10 

### to Health and Environmental Protection Standards 11 

### for Uranium and Thorium Mill Tailing, also known 12 

### as 40 CFR Part 192. 13 

### EPA is proposing to revise this rule by 14 

### adding an additional Subpart F that to explicitly 15 

### address groundwater protection at uranium in-situ 16 

### recovery operations. EPA announced this proposed 17 

### rule in the Federal Register on January the 26th, 18 

### 2015. The comment period started on January the 19 

### 26th of 2015; and it was originally supposed to 20 

### end on April the 27th of 2015 but will be 21 

### extended to May 27th, 2015. And there will be an 22 

### upcoming Federal Register notice. 238

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### In a moment Ingrid will explain in more 1 

### detail what was proposed in the notice, but 2 

### before I turn it over to Ingrid, let me explain a 3 

### bit on how today's hearing will work. 4 

### There will be two sessions. One is we're 5 

### having right now from 1:00 o'clock to 4:00 6 

### o'clock and one this evening from 6:00 p.m. till 7 

### 9:00 here in the Padre Room. 8 

### Please be sure if you have not checked 9 

### into the registration desk at the back of the 10 

### room -- even if you're not planning to talk -- to 11 

### speak today. Excuse me. 12 

### I will call the scheduled speakers to the 13 

### podium by the way you checked in. And you each 14 

### have a number. And after you speaking, you know, 15 

### if you'll return the number to me, I appreciate 16 

### it. 17 

### I also will -- right now -- apologize if 18 

### I mispronounce your name. I try to -- I 19 

### practiced a little bit, and if I do mispronounce, 20 

### I am sorry. 21 

### When it is your turn to speak, please 22 

### state your name along with spelling your last 239

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### name for the court reporter on the opposite side 1 

### and your affiliation before you begin your 2 

### testimony. 3 

### Your comments will be transcribed and 4 

### included in the record of comments on the 5 

### proposed rule. 6 

### We are grateful to have a full roster of 7 

### speakers today. And in order to ensure everybody 8 

### has the opportunity to speak and to ensure 9 

### fairness, we are going to eliminate -- excuse me 10 

### -- we're going to -- sorry. We're going to limit 11 

### the testimony to five minutes. We have our handy 12 

### dandy timer over here that you'll get four minute 13 

### of green, one minute of yellow, and the red light 14 

### will sound off. So, when five minutes is up, you 15 

### know, come to a quick conclusion, please. 16 

### And after you finish your testimony, 17 

### members of the panel may ask clarifying 18 

### questions. 19 

### We are not here today to answer questions 20 

### about the proposed rule. If you have questions 21 

### about the process, please talk to one of us at 2210

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the table, Anthony Nesky at the back of the room, 1 

### and we'll help you out. 2 

### If you have any written copies of your 3 

### testimony or supporting documentation, please 4 

### give us a copy or provide one at the registration 5 

### desk. This will be helpful as we prepare the 6 

### transcript. 7 

### If you have additional comments you would 8 

### like to make, you can submit them in writing. 9 

### Comments must be received by 5:00 p.m. on May 10 

### 27th, 2015. 11 

### Let me assure you that the Environmental 12 

### Protection Agency gives just as much 13 

### consideration to comments we receive in writing 14 

### as we do to comments we receive in public 15 

### hearings like we're having today. 16 

### Instructions for submitting comments are 17 

### included in the fact sheet back at the 18 

### registration table. 19 

### Now, let me turn it over to Ingrid who 20 

### will summarize the proposed rule. 21 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you, George, 22 

### appreciate it. 2311

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Can everybody hear me okay? 1 

### (No response.) 2 

### Okay. Super. Well, first off, let me 3 

### thank everybody for their participation today -- 4 

### coming and through your engagement in this 5 

### rulemaking process. 6 

### As you know, we're here to discuss 7 

### proposed revisions to the health and 8 

### environmental protection standards for uranium 9 

### and thorium mill tailings, also called 40 CFR 10 

### 192. 11 

### We're proposing to revise this rule by 12 

### adding a new subpart, Subpart F, that explicitly 13 

### addresses groundwater protection, restoration, 14 

### and stability at uranium in-situ recovery 15 

### operations. I'll describe the major provisions 16 

### of the rule, and then we'll go from there. 17 

### First off, the major provisions include 18 

### specifying the minimum 13 constituents for which 19 

### groundwater protection standards must be met. 20 

### And this list includes arsenic, barium, cadmium, 21 

### chromium, lead, mercury, selenium, silver nitrate 22 

### as nitrogen, molybdenum, combined radium 226 and 2312

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### radium 228, total radium, and gross alpha 1 

### particle activity, excluding radon and uranium. 2 

### We are also specifying monitoring 3 

### requirements for the different phases of 4 

### operation, including pre-operational, operational 5 

### restoration, stability, and long-term stability. 6 

### In addition, we also are proposing or 7 

### have proposed requirements for corrective action 8 

### where necessary. We announced this proposed rule 9 

### in the Federal register on January 26th of this 10 

### year, and George mentioned the comment period 11 

### ends May 27th at this point. 12 

### Let's see. Again, my name is Ingrid 13 

### Rosencrantz. I am the lead on this rulemaking. I 14 

### work in the Radiation Protection Division in the 15 

### Office of Radiation and Indoor Air at EPA. Feel 16 

### free to contact me via email, 17 

### rosencrantz.ingrid@epa.gov, if you have questions 18 

### about the rulemaking. And we'll look forward to 19 

### hearing your input and receiving comments from 20 

### you as well in the docket. 21 

### So, turn it back to you. 22 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you, Ingrid. 2313

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### At this time I would like to call up our 1 

### first scheduled speaker which is Sam Fugate. 2 

### MR. FUGATE: Over here? 3 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, please. And once 4 

### again, please, once you get comfortable, spell 5 

### your name and state who you are representing for 6 

### the court reporter, please. 7 

### MR. FUGATE: Thank you. My name is Sam 8 

### Fugate, F-U-G-A-T-E. I'm the Mayor of the City 9 

### of Kingsville. First of all, I'd like to thank 10 

### y'all for having us this afternoon and allowing 11 

### us to -- to comment on this very important issue 12 

### to -- to our city and our county. I'd also like 13 

### to thank you for allowing me to speak first. I 14 

### think I told some of you that I was in your fair 15 

### city this morning. It's -- it's raining in 16 

### Washington, D.C., at 6:00 this morning when we 17 

### left National. So, ya'll have the same kind of 18 

### weather to look forward to when you get home. 19 

### Kingsville is a city of about 27,000 20 

### people. It's the home of Texas A&M University, 21 

### Kingsville, which is a state-supported school of 22 

### about 9,000 students. And it's also the home of 2314

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### NAS, Naval Air Station, Kingsville. We train 1 

### about half the Navy jet pilots that are in the 2 

### fleets. And that's the reason why I was in 3 

### Washington. That's one of my jobs, to -- we go 4 

### up about every 9 to 10 months and flash the flag 5 

### and let them know we're still down here. But I 6 

### came back because I felt that this is a very 7 

### important issue to our community. 8 

### I've been Mayor of Kingsville for a 9 

### little over -- well, almost 11 years now. And 10 

### when I was first elected back 10 years ago, there 11 

### was a group of citizens and they called 12 

### themselves STOP. And I'm not exactly sure what 13 

### STOP stands for. And you'll hear from some of 14 

### them because I see them in the audience. 15 

### They came to me as Mayor and asked me to 16 

### join a litigation that they had -- they had 17 

### through the county, suing Uranium Resources, 18 

### Incorporated. It's a uranium plant that's just 19 

### -- just south of Kingsville. 20 

### I told them at that time that if they 21 

### could bring to me scientific evidence that URI 2215

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### was polluting the groundwater in Kleberg County, 1 

### we would consider joining their lawsuit. Haven't 2 

### heard from them since. 3 

### URI has been a good corporate citizen. 4 

### They participate in our community. They've done 5 

### a good job in production and harvesting uranium 6 

### just south of Kingsville. 7 

### The regulations that were in place back 8 

### in the '80's when they first started their mines 9 

### appears to be working. And I would ask that you 10 

### keep those regulations in place. 11 

### I'm not here as a technical witness, just 12 

### know what I know. Thank you. 13 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you very much. Our 14 

### next speaker is Charles Maguire. 15 

### MR. MAGUIRE: Thank you. For the record 16 

### my name is Charles Maguire. That's spelled M-A17 

### G-U-I-R-E. I'm the Director of the Radioactive 18 

### Materials Division at the Texas Commission on 19 

### Environmental Quality. 20 

### I want to thank you, first of all, for 21 

### making the trek here. This is a beautiful city 2216

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### here in the State of Texas. It's one we're very 1 

### proud of. I'm glad you're here with us, and I do 2 

### understand it's no small effort to come outside 3 

### of D.C. I used to travel that direction 4 

### occasionally, and so I do appreciate the fact 5 

### that you're here and that you're listening to the 6 

### people of Texas and to the Texas government as 7 

### you proceed with your rulemaking. 8 

### The -- it's important, I think, that you 9 

### -- that you do listen to the things that are 10 

### going to be said to you both in written and oral 11 

### comments. We would like to provide you with our 12 

### written comments. We will do that within the 13 

### time frame allowed. Those comments, I think you 14 

### will see, will be -- will be very specific in 15 

### terms of trying to address issues we see with the 16 

### regulatory framework in particular as we try and 17 

### add a new subsection to 40 CFR Part 192. 18 

### We think it's important that that 19 

### regulatory framework fit well within other 20 

### existing frameworks that we have through the 21 

### underground injection control program, also 2217

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### delegated that Texas has primacy in that program 1 

### for in-situ uranium mining. We also need to be 2 

### certain that it's well within the framework 3 

### provided by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. 4 

### A couple of the things that we would 5 

### mention just then in the oral testimony that I'm 6 

### giving you this morning is, number one, it will 7 

### take some time. And I do know you fully 8 

### understand that, but it needs to be said. It 9 

### will take some time to integrate a completely new 10 

### subsection into the existing regulatory framework 11 

### and there will -- there will need to be actions 12 

### taken within the Environmental Protection Agency 13 

### and the UIC program, also actions taken by the 14 

### Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and then sort of 15 

### at the end of all of that, the State of Texas 16 

### will have to engage in a rulemaking -- probably a 17 

### significant amount of guidance and policy 18 

### development to go along with that to be able to 19 

### achieve the kind of statistical approaches that 20 

### -- that you have in mind in this framework. 21 

### We're also hoping that with our comments 2218

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that -- that you will consider some suggested 1 

### changes to the regulatory framework that you've 2 

### proposed. We have some ideas that we think might 3 

### address the concerns that you have that might be 4 

### more practical in terms of being able to 5 

### implement those. And so, we -- we will be very 6 

### specific about what we would suggest as a way to 7 

### achieve some of these things. 8 

### It's also our intention to continue the 9 

### dialogue with you. Again, I appreciate you being 10 

### here, but it's -- it's important enough to us to 11 

### continue on -- while you are taking public 12 

### comments, we will be visiting with you to discuss 13 

### our ideas, our thoughts, perhaps providing some 14 

### data and some things like that that would prove 15 

### helpful to you. 16 

### Again, thank you for being here. 17 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Our next 18 

### speaker is Dale Kohler. 19


### MR. KOHLER: Good afternoon. You 20 

### pronounced it exactly right. My name is Dale 21 

### Kohler, K-O-H-L-E-R. Many toilets here in the 2219

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### hotel, so I appreciate that. 1 

### Thank you for being here this afternoon. 2 

### I appreciate that. I am with the Texas 3 

### Commission on Environmental Quality, also the 4 

### TCEQ, you might hear that sometimes. 5 

### Since I've been at the agency, I think 6 

### we've changed names five times. So you might see 7 

### records or hear things that it's TCEQ. It could 8 

### be Texas Water Commission. It could have been 9 

### the TNRCC, affectionately known by many as a 10 

### train wreck. 11 

### And before that it was the Department of 12 

### Water Resources, and before that we had several 13 

### other names. So we're not the Railroad 14 

### Commission. We change names just about every 15 

### other legislative session, but it is the water 16 

### side of the agencies that we're dealing with 17


### here. 18 

### So, as Charles also works in the same 19 

### Agency, since he just spoke, I won't repeat what 20 

### he said, but his division is the licensing and 21 

### permitting side of this program. The division 2220

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that I'm in is the compliance side. So we would 1 

### have the inspectors, if there's complaints, if 2


### there's enforcement to be taken -- I'm out of the 3 

### Office of Compliance and Enforcement for most of 4 

### what my job is, especially in regard to this 5 

### program. So, I could help be a resource witness 6 

### on some of those TCEQ questions if needed. 7 

### But I'm also here today speaking for the 8 

### Groundwater Protection Council, also known as the 9 

### GWPC, which is a national organization of states. 10 

### We're very involved with the EPA and the NRC on 11 

### many different issues -- currently aquifer 12 

### exemptions are a big issue. 13 

### I'm on the Board of Directors of the GWPC 14 

### representing basically EPA Region 6 currently. 15 

### The President of the GWPC right now is from the 16 

### Texas Railroad Commission, so there's a very 17 

### strong Texas connection in GWPC. 18 

### They send their regards. They aren't 19 

### able to be here because they are all in process 20 

### of traveling, which I'll be doing on Thursday. 21 

### We have a Board meeting, so I'll be heading out 2221

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### to there. So I'll be reporting back to them on 1 

### how this is going and how the GWPC may get 2 

### involved. They may or may not. There's clearly 3 

### other states involved such as Wyoming, Nebraska, 4 

### New Mexico -- all these other states are also in 5 

### GWPC, and I think you may have additional 6 

### hearings in other states, so there will be some 7 

### involvement there. So, if there's something that 8 

### GWPC needs to know or if something comes out 9 

### here, I'll be reporting back to them, and I'm 10 

### sure they will be in touch. 11 

### I am here at your disposal, and if you 12 

### have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. 13 

### Otherwise, I am finished with my testimony. 14 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 15 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. 16 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: The next person is Art 17


### Darrow? 18


### MR. DOHMANN: Dohmann. 19 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Say it again, please. 20


### MR. DOHMANN: Dohmann. 21 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Sorry about that. 2222

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. DOHMANN: My name is Art Dohmann, 1 

### D-O-H-M-A-N-N. I am a rural resident and land 2 

### owner in Goliad County. I serve on the Goliad 3 

### County Groundwater Conservation District Board of 4 

### Directors, acronym GCGCD. Thank you for 5 

### providing this opportunity to make comments on 6 

### the proposed rules governing in-situ uranium 7 

### mining in drinking water aquifers. Groundwater 8 

### is the lifeblood of Goliad County, providing 9 

### domestic and livestock water supplies to the 10 

### agricultural based economy. 11 

### Without adequate and good quality 12 

### groundwater, rural areas like Goliad County would 13 

### suffer a tremendous economic disaster. In Goliad 14 

### County over 5,000 domestic and livestock supply 15 

### wells are pumping water from the same sands where 16 

### the uranium ore was deposited millions of years 17


### ago. 18 

### To go in and disturb these drinking water 19 

### aquifers for the purpose of removing the uranium 20 

### has the potential of creating a health risk that 21 

### can exist for many years. GCGCD has been 2223

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### monitoring uranium bore hole exploration and 1 

### potential in-situ mining for eight years. 2 

### GCGCD has got an extensive scientific and 3 

### site data on water quality and the hydrology in 4 

### the area around a potential mining operation. 5 

### This data includes information on the 6 

### contaminated water wells during exploration, 7 

### baseline water quality levels, aquifer modeling, 8 

### and mapping. This information has been shared 9 

### with the EPA Region 6. 10 

### The GCGCD data strongly supports the 11 

### proposed rules which address preoperational phase 12 

### monitoring, a consistent monitoring network 13 

### throughout all phases of the project and post 14 

### mining long-term stability phase monitoring. 15 

### This is especially critical in areas like 16 

### the proposed mining operation in Goliad County 17 

### where the mining operation is force fitted into a 18 

### small area surrounded by domestic and livestock 19 

### water supply wells. 20 

### GCGCD commends and supports the EPA for 21 

### developing these proposed rules. When 2224

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### implemented, these rules will be a significant 1 

### improvement over existing regulatory requirements 2 

### and will be a big step forward in a long-term 3 

### protection of groundwater resources in the 4 

### vicinity of in-situ uranium mining sites. Thank 5 

### you very much. 6 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 7 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. We have a 8 

### question. 9 

### MR. PEAKE: Yes. Even though that you 10 

### have provided that to EPA Region 6, would you 11 

### also supply it for us for use in our docket for 12 

### our rulemaking? 13 

### MR. DOHMANN: We would be very happy to 14


### do that. 15 

### MR. PEAKE: Okay. 16 

### MR. DOHMANN: The information is all in 17 

### -- in a packet in Region 6 associated with the 18 

### aquifer exemption, and we will be happy to take 19 

### this information and -- and would you like it 20 

### hard copied or -- 21 

### MR. PEAKE: Electronically is fine. 2225

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. DOHMANN: Electronically? 1 

### MR. PEAKE: And just submit it to the 2


### docket. 3 

### MR. DOHMANN: Okay. We will be happy to 4


### do that. 5 

### MR. PEAKE: All right. Thank you. 6 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. 7 

### MR. DOHMANN: Thank you. 8 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Bruce Darling? 9 

### MR. DARLING: Hello, my name is Bruce 10 

### Darling. Last name is D-A-R-L-I-N-G. And if 11 

### you've read the book Peter Pan or seen the movie, 12 

### you know what it is and how to spell it. 13 

### I am the author of one of the reports 14 

### that was cited as a basis for a justification for 15 

### the -- the proposed rule. That was a report I 16 

### wrote in 2008. Actually, it was part of 17 

### litigation related to the County of Goliad. It 18


### was where I met -- I met Art. I know Art Dohmann 19 

### quite well. 20 

### And actually, I've had an opportunity to 21 

### -- I don't want to say -- work on both sides of 2226

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### this issue but to delve deeply into it from the 1 

### perspective of communities such as Goliad and 2 

### then from the industry as well. 3 

### In the last several years I have been 4 

### fortunate to conduct rather intensive studies on 5 

### the geochemistry of sites close to uranium sites 6 

### in-situ, of leased mining sites to get a better 7 

### understanding of what's actually happening here 8 

### and what's controlling the uranium and other 9 

### elements in solution. 10 

### Now, as a geochemist I deal extensively 11 

### and helped out have dealt extensively with redox 12 

### sensitive elements, most extensively -- 13 

### particularly arsenic and uranium. And I've 14


### crossed the Gulf Coast and elsewhere as well. 15 

### And we were interested in this case in 16 

### looking at what happens to a closed site. And 17 

### what we found was that -- or contrary to, I 18 

### think, many public opinion is that we see a very 19 

### rapid restoration of reducing conditions at these 20 

### closed sites. We saw that as well in the 21 

### preoperational phase of Goliad, and we have seen 2227

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### it very definitely in the sites we've studied 1 

### extensively at -- in Milam County. There we had 2 

### 13 wells staffed each quarter for a period of a 3 

### year -- extensive chemistry in these. 4 

### I prepared a report for the client, 5 

### Signal Equities, and we're also preparing a paper 6 

### for presentation and publication. The paper 7 

### sheds much light on these processes. And it 8 

### emphasizes, I think, the potential for natural 9 

### attenuation to handle many of these things very 10 

### rapidly. 11 

### So I would encourage -- I would encourage 12 

### you to -- to consider that. The client, I'm 13 

### hoping will make that information available to 14 

### you. I know that it will certainly be available 15 

### in published form later this year. We haven't 16 

### chosen the venue for that -- probably through the 17 

### text of the Gulf Coast Association of Geological 18 

### Societies for Publication and Presentation, but 19 

### you'll find much information there that I think 20 

### will answer many questions you have about the 21 

### preoperational and post-operational issues at in- 2228

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### situ -- in-situ release mines. 1 

### And I think what you'll find is that -- 2 

### is that the potential for natural attenuation is 3 

### far greater than even I could previously 4 

### consider. And I think that that should be 5 

### factored into your rulemaking process to -- to 6 

### maybe temper some of the recommendations about 7 

### the length of time required to -- to monitor some 8 

### of these things. 9 

### Any questions? 10 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: We have one question. 11 

### MR. DARLING: Certainly. 12 

### MR. PEAKE: In what you've seen, how 13 

### would the introduction of the lixiviant affect 14 

### the redox conditions? 15 

### MR. DARLING: Well, the lixiviant 16 

### obviously, that affects the redox condition 17 

### because it drives it into an oxidized state 18 

### because the uranium is there because it's -- it's 19 

### a reducing boundary -- it's a redox boundary. So 20 

### the uranium6 , which is the oxidized state, goes 21 

### to uranium 4, and it drops out (inaudible) one of 2229

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the uranium minerals. 1 

### The introduction of the lixiviant drives 2 

### it upward and into an oxidizing state which -- 3 

### which is how they later recover the uranium. 4 

### Now, what we found is that in looking at 5 

### these things, we didn't have the data in the -- 6 

### in the Texas Water Development Board data base to 7 

### be able to answer these because we dug into the 8 

### issue at the -- at Live Oak. 9 

### What we found was that over that period 10 

### of time, since the closure of the mine, that the 11 

### ORP [oxidation reduction potential] had returned 12 

### to very strongly negative conditions, and that 13 

### might range from minus 250 to almost minus 300 14 

### millivolts. 15 

### So, the life of the lixiviant, I think, 16 

### is strongly controlled by the biological activity 17 

### in the -- in the ore body. 18 

### There are other things that can affect 19 

### that as well. I think the introduction of things 20 

### such as a drilling (inaudible) early -- early in 21 

### the -- the process can also act as a lixiviant as 2230

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### well. 1 

### But those things are not permanent. 2 

### Those things actually have half lives of their 3 

### own, and that's why it's dependent on, again, the 4 

### biological activity within -- within that zone. 5 

### And interesting enough, some of the 6 

### lowest concentrations of uranium we found at Live 7 

### Oak were actually within the old mined area. 8 

### Where the amended restoration target 9 

### value had been requested at .28 milligrams per 10 

### liter, and across the board within the mined area 11 

### we found concentrations of one one-thousandth of 12 

### a milligram earlier in the eight wells within the 13 

### producing area itself we had several wells 14 

### upgraded there and several wells downgraded, but 15 

### interestingly enough, some of the lowest are 16 

### right there in that -- in that old mine area, the 17 

### old roll front where we detected very, very 18 

### strong -- strongly negative ORPs. The wells all 19 

### were redolent of -- of hydrogen sulfide. And so 20 

### it was very clear to me early on that we were 21 

### looking at the reestablishment of reducing 2231

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### conditions under just normal -- normal 1 

### conditions. 2 

### MR. PEAKE: And could you just identify 3 

### what ORP is for the -- 4 

### MR. DARLING: That's oxidation reduction 5 

### potential, yes. In -- in geochemistry, of 6 

### course, we look at charge balance, but many 7 

### elements, of course, such as uranium are what we 8 

### call redox sensitive. They have more than one 9 

### oxidation state. Uranium will have a plus 6 or a 10 

### plus -- plus 4 [oxidation state]. And the redox 11 

### potential which is potential for an element to 12 

### exchange an electron or share an electron, it's 13 

### measured by this oxidation reduction potential. 14 

### Now, unfortunately we don't have a lot of 15 

### that at many of the sites, but we had extensive 16 

### ORP data at the Live Oak site in the Brown Mine, 17 

### Moose Brown Mine in Live Oak County to allow us 18 

### to do the type of redox modeling we needed to be 19 

### able to show which state we were in. 20 

### MR. PEAKE: Thank you. 21 

### MR. DARLING: Thank you. 2232

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. George 1 

### Bokorney? 2 

### MR. BOKORNEY: My name is George 3 

### Bokorney, work for Signal Equities. That's 4 

### spelled B-O-K-O-R-N-E-Y. 5 

### We are a company that has a history of 6 

### producing uranium in Texas back in the early 7 

### '80's, McBride Project. Our owners then 8 

### produced, reclaimed, and were releasing their 9 

### bond. And we have a good track record going back 10 

### in early in the '80's. 11 

### And we have since been permitting and 12 

### exploring, and getting ready for the uptick in 13 

### price which we are all hoping for. Nobody seems 14 

### to know, but as we approached the communities in 15 

### which we wanted to operate, we believed it was 16 

### very important to reach out to the entire 17 

### community, the elected officials, regulatory 18 

### folks, and those who would oppose us. 19 

### And we sat down and we asked them “what 20 

### is it that your concerns are at that time”. 21 

### There were some other controversies going on. 2233

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### And so, based on that we reached out and we said 1 

### we would agree. We'd like to know what the long2 

### term impact of these operations are to the local 3 

### groundwater. 4 

### Dr. Darling was prominent in the 5 

### headlines at that time, and so we asked him to 6 

### consider a site that had been produced, restored 7 

### and released, and to compare the water quality 8 

### there with the water quality up dip from that 9 

### known location in the middle of it, down dip, and 10 

### the surrounding area throughout the county. And 11 

### so it's an important first step, and we believe 12 

### there's probably more of these types of sites 13 

### that we could go in and look at if you have 14


### further concerns about that. 15 

### We believe it does introduce science to 16 

### the equation, and it's -- it's good science. And 17 

### we've found that everybody who's had a chance to 18 

### look at it (clears throat) -- excuse me. We've 19 

### had oak pollen counts of 30,000 plus in my part 20 

### of the country, so I'm still suffering the 21 

### ravages of oak pollen, but we -- we make this 2234

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### report available and we will include that to you 1 

### folks for your review. Like Bruce said, it's 2 

### going to be sent out for peer review and analyzed 3 

### by the scientific community as well. Thank you. 4 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 5


### Charles Salsman? 6 

### MR. SALSMAN: My name is Charles Salsman, 7 

### spelled S-A-L-S-M-A-N, and I'm with Signal 8 

### Equities. 9 

### I appreciate the opportunity to speak 10 

### with you today and for you coming to Corpus. My 11 

### comments are very brief in that we would 12 

### encourage EPA to engage in a more extensive 13 

### dialogue with the TCEQ here in Texas and other 14 

### regulatory agencies in the other states to 15 

### incorporate the knowledge base that they have 16 

### developed in the program that exists here in 17


### Texas. 18 

### We believe that the program in Texas has 19 

### been effective. It has protected public health 20 

### and safety in the environment, and it's achieved 21 

### the results of allowing uranium operators to 2235

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### produce uranium in this state in a cost effective 1 

### way. And we think that it's important that that 2 

### dialogue include the discussion of details on -- 3 

### perhaps there are some improvements to the 4 

### program that could be incorporated through data 5 

### that EPA has or the data that now exists as a 6


### result of the work that we have done. 7 

### But we do believe that the rules as 8 

### proposed under the latest version of Part 192 9 

### don't achieve the same objective, and at the same 10 

### time would create an unnecessary burden on the 11 

### mining industry. So, that is the extent of my 12


### remarks. 13 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Ches Blevins? 14 

### MR. BLEVINS: Yes, thank you. Good 15 

### afternoon. My name is Ches Blevins, 16 

### B-L-E-V-I-N-S. I'm the Executive Director of the 17 

### Texas Mining and Reclamation Association or TMRA. 18 

### TMRA is a Texas non-profit trade association, 19 

### representing over 150 members and companies 20 

### actively involved in mining of numerous 21 

### materials, including uranium, a mineral very 2236

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### important to Texas, the United States, and 1 

### worldwide. 2 

### As the collective voice of uranium mining 3 

### and this industry in Texas, TMRA is asking that 4 

### the EPA carefully consider all of the comments 5 

### you will receive. And then, one, either withdraw 6 

### these proposed regulations or at least extend the 7 

### comment period for at least an additional 90 8 

### days. 9 

### Two, establish a working group and 10 

### process with all stakeholders. 11 

### And, finally, three, have an open, 12 

### transparent, and scientifically based evaluation 13 

### of real substantiated data and other information 14 

### that is not -- at least as appears to be the case 15 

### so far with the present rules -- prejudged to 16 

### reach a specified end. 17 

### The EPA process with this rulemaking 18 

### today has lacked necessary transparency or 19 

### collaboration. It appears that EPA sought its 20 

### own counsel looking inward rather than requesting 21 

### real facts, data, and information from even your 2237

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### agreement states like Texas or an organization 1 

### like TMRA that has worked in this arena with 2 

### those involved, both the operators and the 3 

### regulatory agencies since the '70's. 4 

### As we read the proposal, one aspect would 5 

### require post restoration monitoring up to 30 6 

### years. This requirement has in no way been 7 

### justified for Texas based on any historic or even 8 

### expected issues and importantly, fails to 9 

### consider both private property rights and 10 

### conservation of our precious and getting-to-be11 

### more-precious groundwater resources. 12 

### One requirement for our Texas permits is 13 

### to secure an aquifer exemption. This is only 14 

### secured after an exhaustive and thorough review 15 

### by the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality 16 

### and its authorization of an ISR following its 17 

### review and full opportunity for public 18 

### information, public feedback, and possibility of 19 

### public hearing. 20 

### Moreover, this aquifer exemption is only 21 

### received when the EPA has found that water that 2238

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### could be impacted is not apparently a source of 1 

### drinking water and cannot now or likely serve as 2 

### a source of drinking water in the future. Makes 3 

### sense since that water isn't potable as the 4 

### uranium to be recovered is located where there is 5 

### naturally occurring uranium and radioactivity 6 

### that is associated with uranium in the rock along 7 

### with elevated ions such as arsenic and selenium. 8 

### With this level of expert review and 9 

### consideration and with no history of this 10 

### approach not being fully protective of our 11 

### resources, the public, and the environment, EPA 12 

### has shown no justification for a new level of 13 

### regulations at this time. 14 

### The Texas UIC program requirements have 15 

### been successful for over 30 years in mitigating 16 

### the risk to water resources surrounding the 17 

### exempted area. Bottom line, one, EPA's economic 18 

### analysis is off by an order or orders of 19 

### magnitude as it fails to fully consider the long20 

### term modeling, analysis, administrative cost, 21 

### surety holding cost, system maintenance cost, as 2239

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### well as land holding cost that would be required 1 

### to be extended perhaps an additional 20 plus 2 

### years. And that's assuming that you could get 3 

### leases that would last that long. 4 

### Number two, EPA has failed to consider 5 

### the excessive water uses likely required to reach 6 

### a 95 percent confidence level or, for that 7 

### matter, any real benefit from that usage and the 8 

### associated cost. 9 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute. 10 

### MR. BLEVINS: Finally, EPA pulls the plug 11 

### on the regulatory certainty that is a basic and 12 

### fundamental requirement for any business will or 13 

### should invest millions of dollars in a project. 14 

### Without this certainty and without the 15 

### investment, jobs, tax base, and the resource will 16 

### be lost or wasted in the ground. Thank you. 17 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 18 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: I have one question. 19 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Question. Yes, ma'am. 20 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Sorry. One question. 21 

### MR. BLEVINS: That's all right. 2240

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: I'm just wondering if 1 

### -- if -- or would just request that if you do 2 

### have data on the costs that you were citing, that 3 

### you submit that to the docket. That could be 4 

### helpful. 5 

### MR. BLEVINS: We certainly will be 6 

### providing written comments by the -- whatever the 7 

### date ends up being. 8 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Okay. 9 

### MR. BLEVINS: Yes, ma'am. 10 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Okay. Great. Thank 11


### you. 12 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: And could you -- 13 

### MR. PEAKE: Can you provide a copy of 14 

### your comments, please? 15 

### MR. BLEVINS: I can, yes. I'm not going 16 

### to give you the one that's got all my markings on 17 

### it, but I'm happy to provide them. 18 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Great. Great. 19 

### Thank you. 20 

### Dane McCoig? Again, I apologize. 21 

### MR. MCCOIG: You got it. No problem. 2241

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: I did? Really? 1 

### MR. MCCOIG: Hello. My name is Dane 2 

### McCoig, M-C-C-O-I-G -- you're one of the few that 3 

### actually get to pronounce it right, so thank you. 4 

### I'm here as -- I'm the Vice-President of 5 

### South Texas Operations for Uranium Resources, 6 

### Incorporated. We have offices in Kingsville, 7 

### Texas. We also have some near Hebbronville and 8 

### also some near San Diego, Texas. 9 

### I am here in opposition to the proposed 10 

### changes to 40 CFR Part 192. 11 

### Our company was founded in 1977 for the 12 

### purposes of mining uranium, using the in-situ 13 

### leach recovery methods. We have two projects 14 

### that have been mined and completely reclaimed 15 

### here in Texas, and we currently have three other 16 

### projects which are in all different phases of 17 

### restoration now. And all of them have completed 18 

### in some phases the restoration, and we're working 19 

### towards final closure on all three of them. 20 

### We currently hold over 17,000 acres of 21 

### mineral holdings in Texas and an additional 2242

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### 200,000 acres in New Mexico. Our company has a 1 

### successful history of mining and restoring the 2 

### groundwater here in Texas. It's been a long 3 

### history, and we are -- we've been working with 4 

### the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality 5 

### since they were TNRCC and Texas Water Commission. 6 

### I bring up the history to highlight the 7 

### fact that our company and the State of Texas do 8 

### have more than 30 years worth of experience and 9 

### data on uranium mining and restoration. The data 10 

### will show that there's no source of drinking 11 

### water that has been affected by our operations. 12 

### The data shows the complete and lasting 13 

### restoration in several areas and current 14 

### restoration ongoing in many others. It is a 15 

### history of success, and I would urge you to 16 

### utilize that information going forward. 17 

### We all know the importance of the 18 

### groundwater for all of us. It's obviously our 19 

### lifeblood. It's important for everybody. The 20 

### cleanliness and the protection is extremely 21 

### important. 2243

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### We believe the State of Texas has put 1 

### together -- over the last 30 years -- a very 2 

### robust underground injection control program. 3 

### And I've worked with many of them. And they're 4 

### continually updating and making changes. And 5 

### it's for the betterment of the groundwater 6 

### protection and the protection of the people. 7 

### The proposal states that the current 8 

### industry practices for restoration and monitoring 9 

### of the aquifer may not be -- may not be adequate; 10 

### but based upon the history, that statement seems 11 

### to be unjustified, and it's -- sorry. Obviously 12 

### the key issue of the rule is the 30-year 13 

### requirement for stability. 14 

### Now, there are other issues that we have 15 

### with some of the proposed regulations, but this 16 

### one seems to be crucial. As mentioned in the 17 

### proposed rule, the groundwater standards were 18 

### derived from the RCRA groundwater monitoring 19 

### framework applicable to hazardous waste disposal 20 

### sites. An important thing to note is we're not a 21 

### hazardous waste disposal site. 2244

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### The preamble to the rule covers some 1 

### detailed steps that are taken to restore 2 

### groundwater. And the rule itself does not 3 

### contest any means of which restoration is done. 4 

### In fact, it acknowledges that the restoration 5 

### takes place and is effective. 6 

### If these were ineffective, then there 7 

### would be alternate alternatives that would have 8 

### been required or proposed. 9 

### The constituents in the ground after 10 

### mining are the same ones that were there before 11 

### mining. No one is claiming that ISR does not 12 

### affect the chemistry of the groundwater mining 13


### zone. That's how ISR works. We all know that. 14 

### But the fact that restoration is done and 15 

### no waste is in the groundwater indicates the -- 16 

### an alternative to the 30 year monitoring for 17 

### hazardous waste sites should be considered. 18 

### The rule states it is important to 19 

### protect groundwater to ensure the preservation of 20 

### the nation's currently used and potential 21 

### groundwater sources of drinking water for present 2245

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### and future generations. 1 

### Now, nobody disagrees with a single word 2 

### of that, but it is important to note in this -- 3 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute. 4 

### MR. McCOIG: -- in this conversation that 5 

### the fields were not, are not, and never will be 6 

### sources of drinking water. And that's according 7 

### to the U.S. EPA Aquifer Exemption Program -- also 8 

### that no USDW has been affected by ISR mining 9 

### sites. These are exempted aquifers where no 10 

### mineralization occurs. To drink the water now or 11 

### a hundred years in the future, it's going to 12 

### require a lot of treatment -- and not just for 13 

### uranium. Generally several other constituents 14 

### are out of range as well. 15 

### The concern over affecting the drinking 16 

### water is unfounded in this point. The bill 17 

### states it will not substantially affect companies 18 

### like ours. We're a small company, and uranium 19 

### recovery has been quite expensive. Prices of 20 

### uranium have dropped. Our company has not 21 

### recovered uranium for several years due to the 2246

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### rising costs. And we certainly plan to continue 1 

### mining once it's feasible; but adding 30 years to 2 

### the stability would almost guaranty several of 3 

### the small companies would never be able to mine 4 

### again. Now I know that's not the goal of these 5 

### regulations, but I certainly hope it -- it 6


### wouldn't be the effect. 7 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 8 

### MR. PEAKE: I have a question. 9 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Questions. 10 

### MR. PEAKE: You say that you don't think 11 

### 30 years is appropriate for the monitoring. How 12 

### long do you think monitoring should be done, and 13 

### why? And what would the basis be? 14 

### MR. McCOIG: Well, the basis would be 15 

### based upon the history of the ISR industry and 16 

### the long-term data that's shown. The TCEQ has a 17 

### two-year stability program which certainly seems 18 

### to be effective in protecting the groundwater. 19 

### And the issues surrounding that have been 20 

### thoroughly thought through in the rulemaking 21 

### process, and we agree with those decisions. 2247

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. PEAKE: Thanks. 1 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Mina 2 

### Williams? 3 

### MS. WILLIAMS: My name is Mina Williams, 4 

### M-I-N-A, W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S. I am Vice Chair of the 5 

### Coastal Bend Sierra Club Group and here today on 6 

### behalf of the 500, approximately, members of that 7 

### group to commend you for the proposed revisions 8 

### of 40 CFR Part 192 which if implemented as 9 

### intended and strengthened will greatly improve 10 

### and clarify the rules governing ISR uranium 11 

### operations in those states which implement them. 12 

### For the past eight years CBSCG has 13 

### followed and supported the courageous citizens of 14 

### Goliad and Kleberg County in their efforts to 15 

### protect their groundwater from possible 16 

### contamination resulting from ISR uranium 17 

### operations in those counties. 18 

### It's good to see many of those seemingly 19 

### tireless friends here today to comment on these 20 

### revisions and to support the EPA's efforts. With 21 

### guidance from CBSCG's Conservation Chair, Venice 2248

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Scheurich, who taught college level mathematics 1 

### and statistics for many years, CBSCG has 2 

### participated in numerous meetings, hearings, 3 

### workshops on ISR uranium operations for the past 4 

### decade. And now, at last, we see progress 5 

### potentially being made toward real improvements 6 

### in the ISR rules governing preoperational, 7 

### operational -- operational and post-operational 8 

### procedures. 9


### We are heartened to see that these 10 

### improvements, if properly implemented, especially 11 

### impact in a positive way the critical assessment 12 

### of baseline values, monitoring at all phases, and 13 

### lengthening of time frames for monitoring. 14 

### Again, thank you for proposing Subpart F 15 

### 40 CFR Part 192 and for considering suggestions 16 

### and recommendations in the written comments we 17 

### are submitting. 18 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 19 

### MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 20 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. And thank you 21 

### again. 2249

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Venice Scheurich? And please correct me. 1 

### MS. SCHEURICH: Okay. My name is Venice, 2 

### like the city, V-E-N-I-C-E; last name Scheurich, 3 

### spelled S-C-H-E-U-R-I-C-H. 4 

### And as Mina said, I'm the Conservation 5 

### Chair of the Coastal Bend Sierra Club Group and 6 

### here today also speaking on their behalf. 7 

### Want to thank you for coming to the Texas 8 

### Coastal Bend to hear our comments and especially 9 

### thank you for making groundwater protection your 10 

### primary focus as you work on the revisions to 40 11


### CFR Part 192. 12 

### Some of you here today on the panel as 13 

### well as in the audience I recognize from five and 14 

### a half years ago when you came to take comments. 15 

### You were just beginning the revisions. And I -- 16 

### you'll recall that our main concern expressed at 17 

### that meeting focused on how locations for the 18 

### baseline wells were being determined. Now that 19 

### determination is, of course, critically important 20 

### because samples from those wells are used to 21 

### estimate pre-operational groundwater quality, and 2250

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### they also established the post-operational 1 

### restoration standards. 2 

### During that 2010 meeting we also 3 

### expressed concern over how data from those wells 4 

### was being summarized and interpreted. 5 

### Subsequently, about four years ago, in 2011, your 6 

### Science Advisory Board, independent scientists 7 

### and statisticians of the Radiation Advisory 8 

### Committee held meetings, took public comments as 9 

### they framed their recommendations. 10 

### On behalf of our Sierra Group I 11 

### participated in two of the board's 12 

### teleconferences and also submitted written 13 

### comments, again expressing our concerns that 14 

### Texas regulators allowed sometimes invalid 15 

### statistical methods to be used by some operators 16 

### to estimate baseline groundwater parameters. 17 

### Three years ago, in February of 2012, as 18 

### you know, the Science Advisory Board submitted 19 

### their report to EPA. And our group was pleased 20 

### to note that our concerns had been effectively 21 

### addressed in that report. 2251

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### To cite just one example from that 1 

### Advisory Board report, on page 29 - and I quote 2 

### -- “any cherry picking of affected locations or 3 

### under estimating long-term changes due to ISL 4 

### mining and recovery operations must be avoided.” 5 

### Now we're thankful that EPA has acknowledged 6 

### evidence of some operators and regulators 7 

### sometimes having used high end values to 8 

### represent the well field, which can, in turn, 9 

### result in selecting artificially high restoration 10 

### goals. 11 

### We are grateful that the new Subpart F 12 

### addresses this problem so that the selection bias 13 

### in that data due to non random locating of 14 

### baseline wells can be enormously reduced if not 15 

### eliminated. 16 

### In general we're pleased that your 17 

### proposed revisions incorporate the Science 18 

### Advisory Board's suggestions and, in particular, 19 

### that you're including this recommendation. 20 

### “Devote at least as much effort to 21 

### defining background conditions as to post 2252

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### operational monitoring.” 1 

### Our Sierra group strongly endorses this 2 

### SAB recommendation. In fact, we believe that in 3 

### every case where groundwater will be affected by 4 

### industrial operations, regulators should and must 5


### undertake all reasonable means to understand 6 

### potential groundwater effects before they begin. 7 

### So, thank you for considering these 8 

### comments as well as the written ones we're 9 

### submitting. 10 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Mark Walsh? 11 

### MR. WALSH: My name is Mark Walsh. My 12 

### last name is W-A-L-S-H. I am here today as a 13 

### member of STOP which is South Texas Opposes 14 

### Pollution. This group has been organized for 15 

### many years to monitor and -- the vigil over the 16 

### restoration of the mining process in Garcia Hill 17 

### is about four and a half miles by the crow fly 18 

### southeast of Kingsville. 19 

### This particular area has a high 20 

### concentration of families, and there's been some 21 

### real problems with the contamination of the 2253

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### water. It seems that multiple pre-mining 1 

### exploration exploratory wells has contaminated 2 

### the water. And this has been going on now for 3 

### many, many years. It's now 25 years. And only 4 

### recently we have had some closure. 5 

### Uranium mining in Kleberg County has 6 

### elevated the concentration of contaminants by all 7 

### of these extra -- or exploratory wells. And as a 8 

### result, this water is no longer available for 9 

### domestic or agricultural use. 10 

### You already announced that restoration 11 

### was complete and that it was beginning stability 12 

### testing. Uranium and other constituents are 13 

### elevated above the baseline. And even worse, URI 14 

### has applied for an amendment to the restoration 15 

### table which TCEQ Executive Director has approved. 16 

### I -- I have a copy of the statement. One 17 

### person that could not come today has been the 18 

### major author, and her name is Elizabeth 19 

### Cumberland. And then she had family ties into 20 

### this particular area I'm speaking about. 21 

### Also, we have consulted with expert Rick 2254

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Abitz, Rich Abitz, and we have quite a bit of 1 

### documentation about some of these issues and be 2 

### happy to provide those to you in writing or 3 

### online, whichever the case may be. 4 

### I am not an expert in the technical end 5 

### of it, but I am concerned about the possibility 6 

### of the heavy metals that are disturbed in all of 7 

### this exploration and uranium in the drinking 8 

### water does cause kidney damage and may cause 9 

### other types of cancer. 10 

### So that's my report, and I thank you very 11 

### much for coming and for listening, and I'll 12 

### provide this to you. 13 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Well thank you. 14 

### Craig Wall? 15 

### MR. WALL: Good afternoon. My name is 16 

### Craig Wall, W-A-L-L. I represent Uranium Energy 17 

### Corps. Uranium Energy Corps safely operates a 18 

### uranium satellite facility and a processing 19 

### facility in South Texas. And these proposed 20 

### rules will adversely affect our industry and have 21 

### no additional environmental health or safety 2255

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### benefit. 1 

### When I first read the executive summary 2 

### for the proposed rule, I kept expecting to find 3 

### data that was contrary to all the existing data, 4 

### ISR miners and their regulators have collected 5 

### over the last 30 plus years. 6 

### To the contrary, the summary was 7 

### inundated with speculative words such as 8 

### potential, likely, and might more than 200 times. 9 

### On the other hand, definitive words such 10 

### as proof, proven, and/or confirmed were used only 11 

### twice in the entire document. This method of 12 

### rulemaking is fear-based, irresponsible, and does 13 

### not follow the EPA's own mission to ensure that 14 

### national efforts to reduce environmental risk are 15 

### based on the best available scientific 16 

### information. 17 

### My second thought after reading the 18 

### executive summary was why do the EPA think rules 19 

### for characterizing background water chemistry, 20 

### establishing and meeting restoration goals and 21 

### timelines for stability monitoring were 2256

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### nonexistent or outdated. 1 

### Had they solicited the industry or Texas' 2 

### own regulatory agency since a preliminary meeting 3 

### back in 2010, the EPA would know that a very 4 

### thorough and protective set of rules already 5 

### exists, a set of rules designed specifically for 6 

### the ISR industry developed and evolved as the 7 

### industry involved, and undoubtedly with numerous 8 

### opportunities for public participation. 9 

### As I further rationalized the net effect 10 

### of these proposed rules, it became clear that 11 

### what was being proposed is additional pre-mining, 12 

### baseline sampling, and decades of unwarranted 13 

### stability sampling just to ensure that 14 

### groundwater that does not meet EPA primary or 15 

### secondary drinking water standards will, at the 16 

### end of 30 years of stability monitoring, still 17 

### not meet primary or secondary drinking water 18


### standards. 19 

### Even more disheartening is despite 20 

### whether or not mining activity actually occurs, 21 

### the naturally contaminated aquifers we're talking 2257

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### about must be treated prior to consumption 1 

### exactly as they have mining actually occurred. 2 

### So, either we protect these very isolated 3 

### naturally contaminated aquifers for future 4 

### generations to treat later on down the road or we 5 

### exempt the aquifers, recover the ore, create 6 

### jobs, generate tax revenue for cities, allow 7 

### landowners to pursue their mineral interests, and 8 

### then treat the groundwater exactly how it would 9 

### have been treated had nothing economically or 10 

### productive been done at all. 11 

### In conclusion, no one in this industry 12 

### believes the industry should be unregulated; 13 

### however, the industry adamantly defends its track 14 

### record that no examples of offsite groundwater 15 

### contamination in over 30 years of ISO mining has 16


### ever been documented. 17 

### The reason for this is simple and 18 

### unquestionable. The existing rules work. The 19 

### EPA should withdraw the rules currently being 20 

### proposed for the following reasons: The industry 21 

### and state regulatory agencies are not involved in 2258

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the draft rulemaking process. The EPA failed to 1 

### provide conclusive evidence that current methods 2 

### for establishing background characteristics are 3 

### inaccurate and that the EPA failed to provide 4 

### conclusive evidence that current stability 5 

### monitoring requirements are ineffective. Thank 6


### you. 7 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Troupe 8


### Brewer? 9 

### MR. BREWER: Good afternoon. My name is 10 

### Troupe, and that's T-R-O-U-P-E, Brewer, B-R-E-W11 

### E-R. I'm here today on behalf of the owner12 

### operator members of the Texas Mining and 13 

### Reclamation Association's Uranium Committee. 14 

### In brief, the owner-operators in Texas do 15 

### not think the proposed EPA ruling with a new 16 

### Subpart to 40 CFR Part 192 are necessary due to 17 

### existing regulatory oversight. 18 

### The uranium mining industry believes that 19 

### it is important for the EPA to note the 20 

### substantial regulatory oversight of the 21 

### industry's activities by the State of Texas. 2259

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Specifically, the Texas Commission on 1 

### Environmental Quality and the Railroad Commission 2 

### of Texas provide extensive regulation of the 3 

### industry's daily in-situ recovery operations or 4


### ISR. 5 

### Texas laws and rules regulating ISR 6 

### operations are modernized. Recent legislation 7 

### and state agency rulemakings in Texas have 8 

### brought the laws and regulations which govern the 9 

### industry up to date. Multiple legislative acts 10 

### enacted in 2007, Senate Bill 1604, House Bill 11 

### 3837, and House Bill 3838, and also acts in 2013, 12 

### House Bill 1079, specifically, updated Texas 13 

### statutory law and made certain that Texas law was 14 

### applicable to current mining techniques and 15 

### operations. 16 

### The Texas legislature enacted House Bill 17 

### 1079 in 2013 to address groundwater quality 18 

### issues for the industry, including groundwater 19 

### restoration. The bill led to an extensive 20 

### rulemaking process of the TCEQ in 2014 to 21 

### implement the language of House Bill 1079. 2260

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Numerous stakeholders were involved working with 1 

### the Texas legislature on the language of House 2 

### Bill 1079, and numerous opportunities for public 3 

### participation were provided during the 4 

### legislative process and also during the TCEQ 5 

### rulemaking process. 6 

### Over the last eight years the TCEQ and 7 

### the Railroad Commission of Texas have completed 8 

### extensive rulemaking procedures to implement the 9 

### legislative acts and to modernize the state 10 

### regulations which govern uranium mining, 11 

### exploration, and production activities. 12 

### Starting in 2007 the TCEQ had a two phase 13 

### rulemaking process that lasted over three years. 14 

### This constituted a substantial revision of the 15 

### TCEQ rules and provided numerous opportunities 16 

### for public comment. 17 

### The Railroad Commission of Texas adopted 18 

### revised rules in recent years that modernized the 19 

### regulations governing the exploration of uranium 20 

### mining in Texas. 21 

### Texas has a long history of IRS mining, 2261

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### and the industry has built up an extensive base 1 

### of knowledge regarding ISR mining. While the 2 

### TCEQ as asked for, discussed, and utilized the 3 

### vast ISR mining knowledge that exists in Texas, 4 

### the EPA has rarely asked the industry for 5 

### information about ISR mining or engaged in 6 

### meaningful discussions with the industry about 7 

### ISR mining. 8 

### That is especially true of the EPA's 9 

### formulation process for the new Subpart to 40 CFR 10


### Part 192. 11 

### Thank you for your time and for your 12 

### consideration of these comments. 13 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Charles 14 

### Ragland? 15 

### MR. RAGLAND: My name's Charles Ragland, 16 

### last name is spelled R-A-G-L-A-N-D. I'm a 17 

### property owner in Duval County, and I'm real 18 

### concerned about what I'm reading on the window 19 

### that's being proposed to be put on the back end 20 

### of any uranium operations. 21 

### As a property owner I'm concerned about 2262

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the fact that we won't have any control or know 1 

### who's going to be going into our property. We 2 

### won't have access, I guess, from that property. 3 

### I don't see anything in it to clarify whether 4 

### that property is going to be open, if we can 5 

### utilize it for grazing, if we can utilize it for 6 

### hunting, or if we can even utilize it for any 7 

### potential future oil and gas leases. So I've got 8 

### a great concern on that. 9 

### From another aspect, as a real estate 10 

### broker, I'm also concerned about that -- the 11 

### effect that will happen and occur if that rule is 12 

### imposed on marketing of land. If you've got that 13 

### on a piece of property, who's going to want to 14 

### buy that land? What are you going to be doing to 15 

### future generations of property owners if they 16 

### decide to sell their ranch? 17 

### I think the rule is excessive. We have 18 

### history here in Texas with the work that's been 19 

### done by the operators and by TCEQ. They've got a 20 

### good program in place, and I would very muchly 21 

### encourage y'all to explore and utilize what -- 2263

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### what we have in place right now in Texas. Thank 1


### you. 2 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Ben Eshleman? 3


### MR. ESHLEMAN: Well that was close. 4 

### (Laughter.) 5 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Sorry. 6 

### MR. ESHLEMAN: It's okay. Hi. Ben 7 

### Eshleman. I'll make it easy for you. Ben 8 

### Eshleman. Nice to see you, sir. 9 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Same here. Thank you. 10 

### And, again, my apologies. 11 

### MR. ESHLEMAN: Oh, no problem at all. 12 

### I'm Ben Eshleman. I'll spell it for you. 13 

### E-S-H-L-E-M-A-N. And I'm coming to you as a 14 

### property owner in Jim Hogg County. I’m not an 15 

### expert in the uranium business, just a layman, 16 

### but I do have some thoughts about property 17 

### rights. 18 

### Property owners in Texas own the land, 19 

### water, and minerals. When a company wants to 20 

### access land for mineral exploration or 21 

### development, they must obtain permission from the 2264

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### property owner which typically takes the form of 1 

### a lease agreement that outlines conditions in 2 

### exchange for rights to access. Conditions will 3 

### include the term of the lease as well as payments 4 

### to be made to the property owner. 5 

### It is clear that the EPA has not 6 

### considered the ramifications of extended lease 7 

### periods that would be required if their proposal 8 

### is approved. Longer leases will mean that I will 9 

### not be able to use my land for purposes such as 10 

### the gentleman from Duval County said, 11 

### agricultural, livestock grazing, or even 12 

### recreational hunting. This rule will bar me from 13 

### getting my land back in use and many products for 14 

### over 30 years. 15 

### This proposed rule results in Texas 16 

### property owners stuck in the middle of a 17 

### crossfire. The EPA probably would respond to my 18 

### concerns by getting my land back for over a 19 

### quarter century by saying, well, don't lease your 20 

### property, which is crazy. If we don't lease our 21 

### surface, we -- we are essentially preventing our 2265

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### mineral estate from being developed, which, 1 

### again, seems like EPA is stealing the minerals 2 

### away from the hard-working Texans like me and a 3 

### lot of others in this room. 4 

### If you ask me, I'm pretty certain that 5 

### EPA's objective in doing this is to keep 6 

### companies from mining in the U.S. and hide their 7 

### objective to -- in an unworkable rule in the name 8 

### of protecting groundwater for the children of our 9


### future. 10 

### And speaking of groundwater, which is 11 

### what EPA says this proposal is geared to protect, 12 

### Texas landowners own the water under their land. 13 

### Where these mining companies do their business is 14 

### in locations where the water is not safe to drink 15 

### even before any exploration, let alone mining 16 

### habits. Thanks to Mother Nature, it's toxic. 17 

### So, in actuality, mining companies are 18 

### doing a great service to use and future 19 

### generations by removing as much of the toxic 20 

### material from the ground. 21


### And how much of Texas landowners' 2266

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### precious water will EPA force these companies to 1 

### waste to get toxic water back to the preexisting 2 

### mining state? How far will the area and regional 3 

### water table drop? We have water pumps in the -- 4 

### in the ground today. If you push this water 5 

### level down, I'm going to have to go out and buy a 6 

### whole new set of -- a whole new set of materials. 7 

### It sure seems -- it sure seems like the 8 

### EPA is making a mistake here by claiming that 9 

### they will protect water when, in fact, it would 10 

### only result in wasting water. 11 

### I did my homework on this. I tried to 12 

### find on the EPA website a list of the uranium 13 

### mining companies that have contaminated a public 14 

### water supply; but after all my searching, I 15 

### couldn't find such a list. 16 

### It appears from my search in the state 17 

### and federal agencies who regulate my uranium 18 

### mining have publicly stated that there has not 19 

### been one single, solitary documented case of any 20 

### uranium mining companies contaminated a public 21 

### water supply. 2267

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### So thank you for coming to Texas to hear 1 

### our factual concerns. And I hope this will help 2 

### you realize that you need to drop this effort 3 

### entirely or at least start the process all over, 4 

### and this time get all the interested parties to 5 

### the table first and foremost to figure if 6 

### anything needs to be done about this. And if the 7 

### facts point to a yes, then form a task group or a 8 

### valid committee to help you get a defensible 9 

### plan. 10 

### Thank you very much. 11 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 12 

### MR. LUTHIGER: You can do it. 13 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Peter Luthiger? 14 

### (Laughter.) 15 

### MR. LUTHIGER: My name is Peter Luthiger, 16 

### spelled L-U-T-H-I-G-E-R. And I am Vice-President 17 

### of Mestena Uranium, an in-situ uranium mining 18 

### company operating in South Texas that will be 19 

### severely impacted by this proposed rule. 20 

### And I'll start with saying what he said. 21 

### EPA is proposing this regulation because 2268

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### they asserted it is to protect groundwater from 1 

### potential future contamination and in the event 2 

### that any future contamination would occur, would 3 

### not burden the future generations of the public 4 

### with paying for that remediation. 5 

### And I'd like to start with the question 6 

### that any reasonable person must ask from the 7 

### onset is: Is there a condition that has occurred 8 

### in the past or is the condition occurring now 9 

### that requires attention in the first place? 10 

### Within -- within the proposal EPA 11 

### provided no documented evidence that would result 12 

### in answering the above question in the 13 

### affirmative. And it's for good reason that -- 14 

### why they couldn't do that. Because they could 15 

### not answer it in a yes. Not only could EPA not 16 

### provide any specific example of an in-situ 17 

### uranium operation contaminating a non-exempt 18 

### portion of an aquifer, the EPA could only muster 19 

### up a technical term such may increase, may 20 

### result, may migrate, may occur, and may cause to 21 

### defend or otherwise justify the need for the 2269

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### revisions to 40 CFR 192. 1 

### In stark contrast to EPA, the regulatory 2 

### agencies charged with overseeing the EPA 3 

### regulations applicable to the Uranium Recovery 4 

### Operations in the United States have not 5 

### hesitated to respond to the question raised 6


### above. 7 

### TCEQ has publicly stated that there have 8 

### been no documented cases of offsite groundwater 9 

### contamination in South Texas in over 30 years of 10 

### in-situ uranium mining at over 30 different 11 

### sites. 12 

### Similarly, the NRC acknowledged in a 2009 13 

### report which states the monitoring data indicated 14 

### no impacts attributed to the migration of 15 

### impacted groundwater from the existing 16 

### facilities. 17 

### TCEQ reiterated to EPA the unblemished 18 

### environmental protection success that the 19 

### existing regulatory framing instituted by 20 

### agreement states and the NRC has demonstrated by 21 

### saying there has not been one instance of 2270

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

### documented off-site pollution of a USDW from in1 

### situ uranium mining activities. 2 

### I found it quite telling how EPA was 3 

### completely silent in -- in not using the 4 

### opportunity of this proposed rulemaking to 5 

### attempt to refute these factual statements made 6 

### by -- made by TCEQ and NRC. 7 

### TCEQ and NRC only have 30 years of data 8 

### to support their statements. What this 9 

### uncontrovertibly proves is that the existing 10 

### regulatory process of baseline restoration goal 11 

### development, permitting, extensive opportunities 12 

### for stakeholder participation, and rigorous 13 

### inspection programs provide more than ample 14 

### protections to the public and the environment 15 

### that ISR operations are protective of the 16 

### environment while providing a valuable, clean 17 

### energy source as well as economic benefits to 18 

### rural communities not only in Texas but across 19 

### the western United States as a whole. 20 

### It is quite obvious to every reasonable 21 

### person that EPA is trying to fix a problem that 2271

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### has never existed, does not exist now, and which 1 

### continues to be demonstrated in Texas and across 2 

### the United States will not exist in the future. 3 

### This is not how a reasonable government agency 4 

### should operate. 5 

### I mentioned above that EPA justifies 6 

### their proposal with a lot of mays, and 7 

### potentials, and coulds; but EPA did actually show 8 

### some numbers in the economic impact document 9 

### which I may add is a draft document. So your 10 

### guess is as good as mine on any peer review done 11


### on that document. 12 

### I'm going to focus on this document 13 

### because EPA used Mestena Uranium as an example in 14 

### the small-business impact section. After going 15 

### through this draft document, it appears to me 16 

### that even when EPA has the opportunity to use 17 

### data, information, or numbers to actually try to 18 

### build a case, they appear to pick the numbers -- 19 

### or what I heard earlier, cherry pick the numbers 20 

### that would make their case even more -- even 21 

### though the numbers are neither appropriate nor 2272

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### realistic. 1 

### Specifically, EPA uses the annual 2 

### domestic purchase uranium -- the domestic uranium 3 

### purchase by power plants on the benefit side of 4 

### the analysis which EPA says it was nine and a 5 

### half million pounds. 6 

### The correct value that should be used is 7 

### what is actually produced by the ISR facilities. 8 

### And according to the DOE, that number has never 9 

### exceeded six million pounds in the last 20 years. 10 

### The annual domestic production has actually been 11 

### around four million pounds. 12 

### (Timer ringing.) 13 

### MR. LUTHIGER: Is that it? 14 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, sir. Do you want to 15 

### conclude briefly? 16


### MR. LUTHIGER: I'll conclude these -- the 17 

### rest of these will be in the written comments. 18 

### In closing, EPA must rescind the proposed 19 

### rule and then answer this question: In a 20 

### truthful, factual, scientifically defensible and 21 

### transparent manner, is there an actual problem? 2273

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### And if the answer is no, adios amigos. If there 1 

### -- for some reason the facts still come out with 2 

### a potential for a yes, EPA needs to establish 3 

### working group process and work in a truthful, 4 

### factual, scientifically defensible, and 5 

### transparent manner with all the engaged 6 

### stakeholders that were already mentioned earlier. 7 

### Thank you. 8 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Harry 9 

### Anthony? 10 

### MR. ANTHONY: Thank you. My name is 11 

### Harry Anthony. I represent Uranium Energy 12 

### Corporation and also the Uranium Producers of 13 

### America. 14 

### I want to welcome you to South Texas, 15 

### particularly Texas as well because we're the 16 

### number one state -- energy state that this 17 

### country has -- oil, gas. If you -- if you flew 18 

### in, you probably saw our wind farms that surround 19 

### this area; and we are the western capital -- 20 

### western world capital of in-situ recovery. We 21 

### have -- South Texas has about a 40-year history 2274

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### of in-situ recovery. 1 

### And in that period of time, as you know, 2


### there hasn't been a documented case where a 3 

### public water well or a private water well has 4 

### been harmed by this process. 5 

### I think this rulemaking probably got the 6 

### attention of EPA back in 2009 when the USGS 7 

### published their now historical report about how 8 

### South Texas aquifers have never been restored 9 

### back to baseline. 10 

### Last year there was an industry 11 

### publication that was made available to EPA, which 12 

### I don't see referenced in the rulemaking, where 13 

### we -- where the information was reviewed, and, in 14 

### fact, the industry has done an admirable job in 15 

### restoring the groundwater. 16 

### If you take a look at the primary 17 

### drinking water standards, those six or seven that 18 

### were listed of the 13 that Ms. Rosencrantz 19 

### mentioned earlier on, every one is restored to 20 

### baseline or better. Radium 226, selenium, 21 

### arsenic. 2275

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### One exception is uranium. Of course, 1 

### we're in a uranium hosted aquifer, but -- but a 2 

### lot of the projects in that study were restored 3 

### to baseline or within a part or less. And this 4 

### was technology that was done 20 years ago when 5 

### the drinking water standard for uranium was 5 6 

### parts per million. 7 

### Recently -- within the last 10 years -- 8 

### that standard has been reduced to 30 parts per 9 

### billion. So, which pretty much puts most of the 10 

### waters of South Texas off limits for drinking in 11 

### these mine aquifers. 12 

### These rules are kind of proposed -- 13 

### they're -- they're set up so that the industry 14 

### can basically not make any of the [inaudible] in 15 

### establishing baseline because of the 95 percent 16 

### criteria. I don't understand how you expect a 17 

### sample taken over a two or three-year period of 18 

### time is going to stay stationary for 95 percent 19 

### confidence levels because there are humans 20 

### involved in sampling. 21 

### There are humans involved in analyzing 2276

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### this. And we're talking about parts per 1 

### trillion, parts per billion, so a slight little 2 

### -- or if people actually put down the wrong 3 

### location of the well as we found in Kingsville 4 

### with I-11. That was certainly in the middle of 5 

### an ore body, but that -- that has obtained a wide 6 

### following. 7 

### On the front end this is going to add 8 

### probably an additional three years. To permit a 9 

### uranium project in South Texas -- and maybe in 10 

### Wyoming as well -- is from four to six years. 11 

### And your rules -- proposed rules will probably 12 

### add, in my estimation, another three years on 13 

### that. So, from six to maybe nine years. 14 

### I can probably permit a nuclear power 15 

### plant a lot quicker than I can permit a water 16 

### treatment plant. 17 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute, please. 18 

### MR. ANTHONY: Yeah, I see that. 19 

### Anyway, I ask for you to reconsider, 20 

### shelve these rules, work with these other 21 

### stakeholders that are here today, the industry, 2277

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### in the primacy regulators in Texas and elsewhere 1 

### to get the data that you so rightfully need to 2 

### write some real good rules. 3 

### So, with that I close my comments. 4 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Michael 5


### Maxson? 6 

### MR. MAXSON: My name is Michael Maxson, 7 

### M-A-X-S-O-N. I'm the Operations Manager for 8 

### Mestena Uranium, but I’m really here representing 9 

### myself. I haven't run any of these comments 10 

### through the company for their comments on it. 11 

### One of it is this is fairly personal to 12 

### me in that if these regulations go forth as 13 

### presented, we're out of business. And it's 14 

### personal because I've got several members in my 15 

### family that are also in this business, a 16 

### daughter, son-in-law up in Wyoming, and myself 17 

### that would like to continue working. 18 

### I'm not going to say a whole lot more 19 

### about -- everybody's addressed their comments 20 

### about the economics aren't really very good. 21 

### Your baseline data stuff needs to get with the 2278

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### companies and get real data on what's going on 1


### out there. 2 

### This is not the way a scientific project 3 

### should be -- be run. You should go get hard data 4 

### and then take a look at it. 5 

### And I think everybody in this room would 6 

### be more than willing to supply data and work with 7 

### you-all on this thing. So, the main thing here 8 

### would be to suspend implementation of Part 192 9 

### and then take a good look at what Texas is doing 10 

### because TCEQ and the Railroad Commission actually 11 

### are doing a fairly good job, and they have worked 12 

### with industry and with the other stakeholders on 13 

### putting together some good regulations. 14


### It's worked. It's worked for over 40 15 

### years, and industry has worked well with -- I 16 

### think with these agencies. And we haven't shot 17 

### each other, or killed each other, or anything 18 

### else. Right, Dale? 19 

### But I -- I go back 46 years in this 20 

### industry here in Texas. And when we first 21 

### started playing with this stuff -- and this was 2279

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### when sitting around the bar and discussing 1 

### theories before we even put a well in the ground 2 

### -- big companies involved went to the state and 3 

### said we need some regulations. And they worked 4 

### with the state to get the regulations, and 5 

### they've been continuing working with the state 6 

### and making comments and suggestions, and with the 7 

### various state agencies. 8 

### And, like Dale said, it's been through 9 

### several different agencies, so it -- the industry 10 

### has worked well with this, and they've done a 11 

### good job. 12 

### So the one thing I can come up to sum it 13 

### all up is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's 14 

### been working for 40 some years. There's been no 15 

### occasion for any problems coming up with this, 16 

### and Mother Nature does a good job on sequestering 17 

### any contaminations in an ore zone. 18 

### So that's all I have to say. 19 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 20


### MR. MAXSON: Yes. 21 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Mark Pelizza? 2280

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. PEAKE: George, this is a test for 1


### you. 2 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: I'm sorry? 3 

### MR. PEAKE: This is a test for you with 4


### the names. 5 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, it is. 6 

### MR. PELIZZA: Thank you very much. My 7 

### name is Mark Pelizza. For the record I am an 8 

### independent consultant. I'm retired after 37 9 

### years in the uranium business. All of my 10 

### experience has been with in-situ recovery. 11 

### MR. PEAKE: Could you spell your name for 12


### the record? 13


### MR. PELIZZA: P-E-L-I-Z-Z-A. 14 

### MR. PEAKE: Thank you. 15 

### MR. PELIZZA: I have spent most of my 16 

### career working in Texas. I've been associated 17 

### with about 20 in-situ projects in Texas, but I've 18 

### also had experience working in New Mexico, 19 

### probably as much experience dealing with in-situ 20 

### recovery in New Mexico as anyone. And also, I've 21 

### overseen a project in Wyoming. 2281

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I spoke to this group or to your -- your 1 

### group several years ago. And without belaboring 2 

### what has been said in the audience and without 3 

### rereading my statement from the EPA record 4 

### several years ago, I would note that some of the 5 

### things are the same that I said that Texas had 6 

### more ISR experience than all of the other states 7 

### combined. 8 

### I said that we didn't know of any legacy 9 

### issues that existed. I said that we are highly 10 

### regulated. I said that we have many sites that 11 

### have either been restored on the stability mode. 12 

### I accounted for 26 operations here in 13 

### Texas. I accounted for 86 production areas; and 14 

### 70 of those production areas had been approved 15 

### for restoration. So it's a big, big mountain of 16


### data. 17 

### One of the things I have that I will 18 

### leave for the record today or I can send it later 19 

### on electronically is a map that TCEQ has prepared 20 

### which shows all of the areas that have been mined 21 

### in Texas, all of the exempted areas. It gives 2282

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the basic data, the depths, the formations, et 1 

### cetera, and -- and what it does is it forms a 2 

### visual, for what they've got in Austin in the 3 

### public record. 4 

### I've heard over the past that the public 5 

### record is confusing. It's difficult to get 6 

### through and -- and has a whole litany of 7 

### problems. 8 

### I have never been through the public 9 

### record, the Class 3 inventory of data that exists 10 

### in Austin. So to satisfy myself, I stopped in 11 

### Austin yesterday afternoon to look at the 12 

### inventory myself. Within two hours I was able to 13 

### leaf through the data for essentially every ISR 14 

### site that's ever been developed in the state. 15 

### It's well organized. It's systematic. It's in 16 

### two rooms, and on the wall is a prominent poster 17 

### which gives an index of all the information 18 

### that's available in the bookcases. So, there's 19 

### really not an excuse not to look at the 20 

### information. 21 

### I will be providing a lot of it with 2283

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### comments that I will be -- will be writing for 1 

### the Uranium Producers of America. 2 

### As has been said here, I don't know of 3 

### any problems yet we have these new regulations. 4 

### The regulations have ramifications. And I won't 5 

### belabor the ramifications, but I think we've 6 

### heard a few of them today. It's -- it's a real 7 

### nightmare if one considers private property 8 

### rights. 9 

### Thirty years? Thirty -- this is sort of 10 

### like a mortgage that when you get done with your 11 

### mortgage, you have another 30 years. It just 12 

### doesn't work. It's not practical, and we have to 13 

### figure out something that works for the EPA, but 14 

### it's not 30 years because nobody is going to want 15 

### companies hanging around for 30 years when 16 

### they're all done. 17 

### Private property owners want to get back 18 

### to their lives. They want to get back to 19 

### ranching their land. They don't want to have a 20 

### bunch of people running around their properties. 21 

### The statistical analysis that's required, 2284

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I don't understand. Ninety-five percent -- I'm 1 

### not sure if it's 95 percent of a well field if 2 

### it's welled by well, every injector. Depending 3 

### on the report you read, whether you read the rule 4


### or the -- 5 

### MR. BROWSKI: One minute, please. 6 

### MR. PELIZZA: -- or the preamble, or the 7 

### technical reports, it's confusing. But this is 8 

### for sure that if we continue to pump water to 9 

### reach a statistical number, what we might end up 10 

### with is waste. Restoration is the most 11 

### consumptive portion of the ISR process, and if we 12 

### keep restoring to restore it to a hypothetical 13 

### number without considering water use, we may end 14 

### up drying up the aquifer that we're trying to 15 

### protect. 16 

### So, with that I will close. I recommend 17 

### that -- that EPA work with TCEQ, work with the 18 

### industry. 19 

### There's a workshop in -- in Denver every 20 

### June. It's an ideal place to have a roundtable 21 

### and vet thoughts with the rest of the uranium 2285

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### community and the public at large. It's 1 

### sponsored by NRC, so I know that you can -- you 2 

### can find them. 3 

### Thank you very much. 4 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 5


### MR. PELIZZA: You can have that for the 6


### record. 7 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Jay Masterson. 8 

### MS. MASTERSON: My name is Jay Masterson, 9 

### M-A-S-T-E-R-S-O-N. I feel out of place because I 10 

### have an easy name. 11 

### Thank you very much for allowing us to 12 

### come and speak. I feel very humbled by the 13 

### quality of people who have come to give their 14 

### input. My husband and I operate a mechanical 15 

### integrity and a risk assessment business. We 16 

### have done so for 15 years. 17 

### My accent gives me away. I wasn't able 18 

### to be born in Texas. I came to Texas 33 years 19 

### ago. I worked for 16 years with the Coastal Bend 20 

### Council of Governments. Policy development was 21 

### one of my specialties when I worked for 21 years 2286

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### in Washington. 1 

### My concern is not as a technical expert. 2 

### You-all have plenty of experts on all areas that 3 

### you've already heard of. What I am primarily 4 

### concerned about is the process of policy 5 

### development. 6 

### It has been my experience, especially in 7 

### working in Texas, that it's useful to have a 8 

### framework for what the people in the area already 9 

### are doing. Right now you probably have heard 10 

### from the Commerce Department Texas has an export 11 

### of $289 billion. You came to the right place to 12 

### talk about policy and regulations because these 13 

### people know what they're doing. 14 

### When I came from Washington, I was 15 

### astounded at how much was already going on in the 16 

### full spectrum of economic development. I spent 17 

### six years of my time dealing with economic 18 

### development and followed that through after my 19 

### retirement. 20 

### It's a complex process. I have a great 21 

### deal of respect for what you're up against. You 2287

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### have a whole spectrum of people pinging on you -- 1 

### special interest groups providing this or that -- 2 

### but that complex process cannot be subverted by 3 

### good intentions. 4 

### Data collection is actually very 5 

### essential. Everything that I worked on in South 6 

### Texas required that I get on-the-ground knowledge 7 

### from the people from which I was asking their 8 

### support and their cooperation to implement the 9 

### policy. 10 

### The unexplored negative effects on 11 

### technical jobs and costs of restoration drive the 12 

### need for an extraordinary effort to make sure 13 

### that policy, when developed, does not have 14 

### unnecessarily adverse effects nor have unintended 15


### consequences. 16 

### It's very easy to use derivative and 17 

### model data. Working in government as I did, it's 18 

### very easy to come up with one of the universities 19 

### coming in and doing this and this. Here's what 20 

### could happen. Here's what that might happen. 21 

### But there's no substitute for actual operator's 2288

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### and state body's information. 1


### We have to all be aware that we have 2 

### certain inherent biases. I was the first to 3 

### admit that I have a bias toward private sector 4 

### involvement. I have made my living as a private 5 

### sector person. Even though I worked in 6 

### government for 16 years, the bulk of my 45 years 7 

### was primarily in private sector. 8 

### I also recognized that people love the 9 

### environment. People in Texas love the 10 

### environment in a way that I was completely 11 

### unprepared for when I came from Washington. 12 

### Their love is expressed in working together. 13 

### Whether it's air quality, water quality, 14 

### or other things, working together has been the 15 

### best way for Texans to preserve what they love 16 

### and why they're here and at the same time be able 17 

### to make a living. 18 

### I won't attempt to go into the technical 19 

### detail these people who have spoken so eloquently 20 

### ahead of me. What I am aware of is that when I 21 

### was trying to get the support of local people who 2289

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### were doing some things they had never done 1 

### before, was that I had to get as many 2 

### participants from the full spectrum of the points 3 

### of view regardless. 4 

### I would recommend that you rescind these 5 

### proposed regulations, obtain current data from 6 

### the legislative and regulatory bodies of the 7 

### states that are really doing it, like Texas. Get 8 

### information directly from operators, both mining, 9 

### refining, and recovery operators, the private 10 

### property holders; and when you do all that, 11 

### whatever you do, please increase the length of 12 

### their comment period so that everybody can get a 13 

### chance to digest all the many documents you have 14 

### put together. 15 

### Thank you very much for being allowed to 16 

### be here. I respect everything that you're doing; 17 

### and I hope that you will find in Texas, as I did, 18 

### the best place to get the -- the successful 19 

### outcome that you desire. 20 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. David 21


### Cameron? 2290

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. MASTERSON: Do you have the comments 1 

### from that mining organization? Do you have their 2


### comments? 3 

### MR. PEAKE: We have what they provided. 4


### So -- 5 

### MS. MASTERSON: Well, I just -- you look 6 

### at it. You can have it. I don't want it if you 7 

### need it. I'm fine to -- 8 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: I'm not sure if you 9 

### would like to put things in the docket 10 

### electronically, that would be great. 11 

### MS. MASTERSON: Great. Thank you. 12 

### MR. PEAKE: And this is from -- this will 13 

### help with the transcript. 14


### MS. MASTERSON: Yeah. 15 

### MR. PEAKE: Okay. 16 

### MS. MASTERSON: I read from that, and I 17 

### made you two copies. 18 

### MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 19 

### MS. MASTERSON: And this is the data from 20


### the -- 21 

### MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 2291

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Is there a David Cameron 1


### here? 2


### MR. PEAKE: Calderon. 3 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Caldwin. 4


### MR. PEAKE: Calderon. 5 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Speak up. 6 

### MR. PEAKE: Is there a David Calderon 7 

### here? Oh, you did -- you -- okay. All right. I 8 

### just wanted to make sure you got your chance. 9


### MR. BROZOWSKI: As we have heard from all 10 

### of our speakers, I will conclude this session of 11 

### the afternoon public hearing. 12 

### MR. PEAKE: Offer to see if anyone else 13 

### hasn't had a chance to speak. 14 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Or just is there anyone 15


### else -- 16 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Anybody else? 17 

### Before I conclude, will there be anybody else who 18 

### would like to make a comment? 19 

### (No response.) 20 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Seeing nobody jumping up 21 

### on that then, we've heard from all the speakers, 2292

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### and I will conclude this public hearing session. 1 

### Thank you for coming. Thank you for 2 

### participating. This hearing session is 3 

### officially closed. 4 

### We will have another session tonight in 5 

### the same room at 6:00 p.m. And please submit 6 

### your comments electronically to Regulations.gov. 7


### That's R-E-G-U-L-A-T-I-O-N-S dot G-O-V. And the 8 

### document number is OAR, Office of Air and 9 

### Radiation dash 2012 dash 0788. Again -- 10 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: It's in the Preamble, 11


### too. 12 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. And it's located 13 

### in the Preamble to the Rule. 14 

### Have a good afternoon. Have a safe drive 15 

### home. Thank you again for coming. 16 

### (Whereupon, the afternoon session was 17 

### concluded at 2:46 o'clock p.m.) 18

19

20

21

2293

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### E V E N I N G S E S S I O N 1 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Good evening, everyone. 2 

### My name is George Brozowski, and I'm the Regional 3 

### Health Physicist from the United States 4 

### Environmental Protection Agency, Region 6, 5


### Dallas. 6 

### Thank you all for coming this evening. I 7 

### will be presiding over the hearing this evening. 8 

### And along with me on the panel will be Ingrid 9 

### Rosencrantz and Tom Peake from the Office of 10 

### Radiation and Indoor Air from our headquarters in 11


### D.C. 12 

### Before getting into the hearing, again, 13 

### want to remind the people that our bathrooms -- 14 

### men's room is all the way down towards the right; 15 

### women's bathroom is all the way down towards the 16


### left. 17 

### In case of an emergency we will not take 18 

### the elevators. We will take the stairways either 19 

### on the right or the left, walk our way down 20 

### towards the first floor and then make our way out 21 

### towards the exits here. So let's please keep 2294

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that in mind then. 1 

### Having said all that and clearing up any 2 

### housekeeping here, this hearing is now in 3 

### session. 4 

### We are here today to listen and receive 5 

### your comments on EPA's Proposed Revisions to 6 

### Health and Environmental Protection Standards for 7 

### Uranium and Thorium Mill Tailings, also known as 8


### 40 CFR Part 192. 9 

### EPA is proposing to revise this rule by 10 

### adding an additional Subpart F that's to 11 

### explicitly address groundwater protection at 12 

### uranium in-situ recovery operations. 13 

### EPA announced this proposed rule in the 14 

### Federal Register on January the 26th, 2015. The 15 

### comment period started on January the 26th, 2015, 16 

### and it was originally supposed to end on April 17 

### 27th, 2015, but has been extended to May 27th, 18 

### 2015, in an upcoming Federal Register notice. 19 

### In a moment Ingrid will explain in more 20 

### detail what the proposed in the notice, but 21 

### before I turn it over to Ingrid, let me explain a 2295

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### bit about how today's hearing works. 1 

### We already had one hearing this afternoon 2 

### from 1:00 to 4:00; and this is our second hearing 3 

### today, beginning at -- you know, tonight at 6:00 4


### o'clock. 5 

### If you have not checked in at the 6 

### registration desk in the back of the room, even 7 

### if you're not planning to speak, please -- please 8 

### check in today. 9 

### Like we did this afternoon, I will call 10 

### the scheduled speakers to the podium. When it's 11 

### your time to speak, please state your name, along 12 

### with spelling your last name for the record. 13 

### Your comments will be transcribed and included in 14 

### the record of comments of the Proposed Rule. 15 

### In order to ensure everyone has an 16 

### opportunity to speak and to ensure fairness, 17 

### we'll limit the testimony to five minutes. We 18 

### will signal you when you have one minute left 19 

### with our gorgeous device over here on the desk 20 

### here. And when five minutes have passed, I will 21 

### ask you to complete your testimony. 2296

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### After you finish your testimony, members 1 

### of the panel may ask clarifying questions. We 2 

### are not here today to answer questions about the 3 

### Proposed Rule. If you have any questions about 4 

### the process, please talk to us at the end of the 5 

### hearing. 6 

### If you have written copies of your 7 

### testimony or supporting documentation, please 8 

### give a copy to us at the end of the hearing, or 9 

### please leave it in the back at the registration 10 

### table. This will be very helpful as we prepare 11 

### the transcript. 12 

### If you have additional comments you would 13 

### like to make, you can submit them in writing. 14 

### Comments must be received by 5:00 p.m. on May 15 

### 27th, 2015. 16 

### Let me assure you that the Environmental 17 

### Protection Agency gives just as much 18 

### consideration to comments we receive in writing 19 

### as we do in comments we receive in public 20 

### hearings like the one we're having tonight. 21 

### The instructions for submitting comments 2297

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### are included in the fact sheet back at the 1 

### registration table. And you can pick up a copy 2 

### at your leisure. 3 

### With that, let me now turn it over to 4 

### Ingrid who will now summarize the Proposed Rule. 5 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you, George. 6 

### Hi, everybody. Thanks for coming today. 7 

### We appreciate your engagement with this proposal. 8 

### As George has said, we're here to hear your 9 

### comments on our proposed revisions to Health and 10 

### Environmental Protection Standards for Uranium 11 

### and Thorium Mill Tailings, also known as 40 CFR 12


### 192. 13 

### We're proposing to revise this rule by 14 

### adding new -- a new subpart, Subpart F, that 15 

### explicitly addresses groundwater protection, 16 

### restoration, and stability at in-situ recovery 17 

### operations. 18 

### Before I go into the major provisions of 19 

### that rule, I'd like to, again, remind folks that 20 

### we are interested in also getting any written 21 

### comments you may have. If you could please 2298

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### submit those to the docket for this rule, you can 1 

### find that docket at regulations.gov and submit 2 

### electronically. The Docket Number is OAR-2012- 3


### 0788. 4 

### And details on how to submit your 5 

### comments are actually in the Preamble to the 6 

### proposal as well. 7


### MR. PEAKE: And the Fact Sheet. 8


### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: And the Fact Sheet that 9 

### has been made available at the back of the room. 10 

### So, any written comments, we would love 11 

### to get your comments. Thanks. 12 

### Okay. The major provisions of the 13 

### proposal -- I'll go through these fairly quickly. 14 

### First off, we're specifying the minimum 13 15 

### constituents for groundwater protection standards 16 

### must be met. The list includes arsenic, barium, 17 

### cadmium, chromium, lead, mercury, selenium, 18 

### silver, nitrate as nitrogen, molybdenum, combined 19 

### radium 226 and radium 228, total radium and gross 20 

### alpha particle activity excluding radon and 21 

### uranium. 2299

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### We're also specifying monitoring 1 

### requirements for the different phases of the 2 

### operation. These -- these phases include pre3 

### operational phase, the operational, restoration, 4 

### stability, and long-term stability. In addition, 5 

### we have proposed requirements for corrective 6 

### action where necessary. 7 

### We -- as George has mentioned, we 8 

### announced this proposal in the Federal Register 9 

### on January 26th of this year. The comment period 10 

### started then, and it ends on May 27th. Again, we 11 

### would appreciate having your written comments 12 

### submitted electronically via regulations.gov. 13 

### I think that's it for me. I'll turn it 14 

### back over to you, George. Thank you. 15 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you Ingrid. 16 

### Having said all that, let's call up our 17 

### first speaker for tonight. Dick Messbarger? 18 

### Thank you. Thank you very much. Have a 19 

### seat. Please state your name and please spell 20 

### your last name for us. 21 

### MR. MESSBARGER: Thank you. My name is 22100

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Dick Messbarger, M-E-S-S-B-A-R-G-E-R. And like 1 

### one of your -- your first speaker this morning, 2 

### we had an early morning flight out of Washington, 3 

### so I had to write down notes, I'm afraid -- 4 

### getting up at 3:30 which is 2:30 your time, and 5 

### my body clock 2:30 time. 6 

### Anyway, I have an interesting background 7 

### and experience with in-situ mining that goes back 8 

### to the 1970's as a newspaper reporter. And we 9 

### did a story on the in-situ mining by Union 10 

### Carbide in Jim Hogg County. And that was pretty 11 

### revolutionary for us because I was in Kleberg 12 

### County which is oil and gas country. And we 13 

### didn't even know that there was uranium in the 14



### area. 15 

### And it was a -- it was a good primer, 16 

### gave us a good idea, gave me a good idea of 17 

### exactly what happened in -- in in-situ mining. 18 

### And that was in the mid '70's. 19 

### And then in the early '80's a company 20 

### decided to open a mine just south of Kingsville 21 

### where I live -- southeast. And it turns out it's 22101

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### just a couple of miles from where I live. 1 

### So I had an interesting perspective 2 

### unlike a lot of people that -- that have concerns 3 

### -- and we all did with the idea because it was 4 

### unknown; but I've been able to monitor and watch 5 

### all the way through the 30 plus years of the 6 

### operation of the Kingsville Dome Mine. I've 7 

### spent a lot of time out there. 8 

### I have been a member of the Kingsville 9 

### Industrial Foundation since the mid '70's. And 10 

### it was the Kingsville Industrial Foundation that 11 

### -- their focus is on retaining and recruiting 12 

### basic industrial jobs. So this was an industry 13 

### that was coming, and so we were very interested. 14 

### What kind of jobs they're going to 15 

### create, what kind of -- you know, is there going 16 

### to be a problem? 17 

### So what we did, we hired experts at the 18 

### university -- the Texas A&M University to do an 19 

### analysis on it. And we became so engaged, we 20 

### actually had party status during the permitting 21 

### process with the Texas Water Commission. And so 22102

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### I have been with the Industrial Foundation ever 1 

### since. So I have sort of a responsibility to 2 

### monitor what's going on, plus the fact I'm a 3 

### neighbor. And my neighbors draw water from the 4 

### same aquifer where URI mines uranium. 5 

### A good friend of mine lives 200 yards 6 

### southeast of the Kingsville Dome Mine. And he 7 

### gets his water checked all the time. 8 

### And the truth is there has been no 9 

### negative impact that I've been able to find with 10 

### in-situ mining in the United States. There have 11 

### been some questions about when mines are 12 

### completed and bringing them back to base level 13 

### and this and that; but if you look at the history 14 

### of it, it's got an extremely impressive history 15 

### on restoration. 16 

### So, I've worked with state regulators. 17 

### I've been monitoring that operation. Then a 18 

### couple of years ago I got more engaged with the 19 

### EPA because I talked to the Region 6 Director of 20 

### the SBA. And the reason I did was because we had 21 

### a number of small businesses that came to me. 22103

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### And I -- I work in industrial development. 1 

### And they said we're being impacted by the 2 

### fact that these mines, the uranium mines, aren't 3 

### doing as much business. They're -- they're 4 

### backing off. 5 

### And in doing a little research, we found 6


### out that there are some onerous EPA rules and 7 

### regulations -- I'm -- I'm not judging. I'm just 8 

### saying the permitting process today, six, seven, 9 

### eight years. It's very difficult to get 10 

### permitted to do a mine. 11 

### So, anyway, these businesses came to me. 12 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute, please. 13


### MR. MESSBARGER: I saw that. 14 

### So, anyway, that's the reason why I -- 15 

### and then I ended up having conversation with Sam 16 

### Coleman and a number of the staff members trying 17 

### to understand how we can work together to keep 18 

### the jobs but at the same time, keep the 19 

### environment clean. 20 

### And I'm a strong believer in what's being 21 

### done in the uranium mining industry with in-situ 22104

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### mining is clean, and it also produces good jobs. 1 

### Thank you. 2 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 3 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. 4 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Teresa Carrillo? 5 

### MS. CARRILLO: I feel like I'm in the 6 

### witness box for the electric chairs. 7 

### MR. PEAKE: Just the witness box. 8 

### MS. CARRILLO: Witness box. 9


### MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes. 10 

### MS. CARRILLO: My name is Teresa 11 

### Carrillo. The last name is C-A-R-R-I-L-L-O. 12 

### My husband and I and our children have 13 

### lived in Duval County for several years. My 14 

### husband is from Duval County, generations of 15 

### people from Duval County. 16 

### Our source of our water is drinking -- 17 

### our drinking water is groundwater. Uranium 18 

### mining happens in the vicinity, not far away in 19 

### Brooks County, Jim Hogg County, and throughout 20 

### Duval County. 21 

### I am glad the previous individual is 22105

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### confident in the system, but I'm also glad that 1 

### EPA is expressing an interest in this new 2 

### rulemaking. I think it's extremely important 3 

### because when there's an error in this kind of 4 

### operation, the error is extremely problematic. 5 

### It cannot be fixed. 6 

### Once drinking water is contaminated with 7 

### heavy metals and radioactive metals, your 8 

### drinking water is shot. And if you feed your 9 

### cattle and you feed your children, and you 10 

### breastfeed your children, then you're concerned 11 

### about that drinking water. And that drinking 12 

### water has to be something that you feel like I 13 

### can give my baby this water and there's no 14 

### problem. 15 

### But people in Jim Hogg County have 16 

### experienced problems; and people in Duval County 17 

### have experienced problems. And it's not funny, 18 

### and it's not a joke. 19 

### And while I am delighted that individuals 20 

### have had jobs and make good salaries, and had a 21 

### livelihood from working in this industry, that's 22106

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### not to say that other people's livelihoods, jobs, 1 

### or health should be sacrificed for the economic 2 

### benefit of others. We have to work in tandem. 3 

### It has to be something that the economic 4 

### development can't create a negative situation so 5 

### that people can't live out there anymore, or 6 

### drink water out there anymore, or all their water 7 

### has to be hauled in by some little truck, which 8 

### is very, very hard especially if you have cows 9 

### you have to feed and you have goats, and you have 10 

### chickens. I mean that's a problem. 11 

### So, I'm delighted that EPA has examined 12 

### this and is looking at strengthening the 13 

### rulemaking. It's that serious of a situation 14 

### that you need to. You need to because once the 15 

### groundwater is ruined, it's ruined. And the 16 

### restoration is -- I don't know, but I think it's 17 

### a myth that it can be restored. 18 

### So, thank you very much. 19 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. I can't 20 

### pronounce the first name here, but is there a Mr. 21 

### or Mrs. Irving? 22107

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Or Irwin? 1


### MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes. 2 

### MR. PEAKE: Blame it on his (inaudible) 3 

### handwriting. 4 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Well, yes. 5 

### What is your first name, sir? 6 

### MR. IRWIN: Raulie. 7 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. I'll blame my -- 8 

### I'll blame my partner back there. 9 

### MR. IRWIN: Yes, sir, my name is Rawlie 10 

### Irwin. It's I-R-W-I-N. I am President of the 11 

### Goliad County Groundwater Conservation District. 12 

### And we would certainly like to thank you 13 

### for being here tonight, for making this trip down 14 

### here. We sent one to your -- a representative to 15 

### your Washington, D.C., hearings. I don't know if 16 

### you folks were there, but later on you'll hear 17 

### from our County Judge, but we have divided the 18 

### topics up so as not to be redundant to you and 19 

### belabor different -- the same topic as each one - 20 

### - you know, for each one of us. 21 

### We -- as the Groundwater District and 22108

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### the people of Goliad County, we applaud your 1 

### rules that you're making. We applaud you for 2 

### taking notice of it and making these rules; and 3 

### we hope that they all get to be proposed to a 4 

### fixed rule of what you've got here. 5 

### I want to address your -- your monitoring 6 

### after the operations take place, your long-term 7 

### and short-term monitorings after that. This is 8 

### something that we certainly like to see you do -- 9 

### extend these out to 30 years. We have been 10 

### adamant about this in the short period of time 11


### we're not covered. 12 

### But the thing that needs to be determined 13 

### -- and maybe you can come up with a set method to 14 

### do that -- is the rate of flow of the aquifer and 15 

### the water in the aquifer because during our 16 

### experience with this and the experts that we've 17 

### listened to, you could come up with as many 18 

### different opinions on the rate of flow of the 19 

### aquifer as there are people in this room. 20 

### Everybody had a different version, all the way 21 

### from 3 feet to 50 feet a year. 22109

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### And there needs to be a set formula, a 1 

### test, or procedure to determine that rate of 2 

### flow. And then from that your years of 3 

### monitoring should be related to the rate of flow 4 

### of the aquifer because we've experienced this 5 

### through all the eight years that we've been 6 

### associated with this. And this is just something 7 

### that needs to be set down in a pat way and 8 

### something that can be determined. And perhaps 9 

### you can come up with a formula and a procedure 10 

### for doing that. 11 

### So we thank you for coming. We applaud 12 

### your rules, and we certainly appreciate you 13 

### making all this -- your trip all the way to 14 

### Corpus Christi, Texas. Thank you. 15 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Pat Calhoun? 16 

### MR. CALHOUN: Good afternoon. My name is 17 

### Pat Calhoun. I'm a County Judge in Goliad 18 

### County. And, like Raulie, I would also like to 19 

### really thank the EPA's efforts in doing this 20 

### because at least we've taken the first steps. We 21 

### think we need to do a little bit more on 22110

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### protection of our groundwater, but -- but you've 1 

### done yeoman's work, but it's not done yet, and I 2 

### -- I encourage you to keep going with this and 3 

### listening to the -- the comments that the folks 4 

### have to say because groundwater is our life. 5 

### Our county is primarily an agricultural 6 

### and historical tourism county. That's our 7 

### lifeblood. We're a small county. We're less 8 

### than 7,500 in the county. 9 

### Agriculture based, primarily in 10 

### livestock. There's -- there's a few farmers but 11 

### primarily in livestock. A lot of wildlife, so 12 

### hunting and fishing. And, of course, the 13 

### historical tourism are our mainstay. So people 14 

### coming to visit and -- and see some of the 15 

### tourist things. 16 

### Eagle Ford Shale, everybody's heard of 17 

### the Eagle Ford Shale. We've got lots of oil and 18 

### gas and all of that. Well, that's one county 19 

### north of us. We don't have any of that. We've 20 

### got gas. We don't have any -- any of the oil. 21 

### So, therefore, we don't have any of the play with 22111

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### that. So we don't have income from that, but we 1 

### get all of the bad side in the form of torn up 2 

### roads and things like that on the support side of 3 

### the Eagle Ford. 4 

### So there are people that make a little 5 

### bit of money with disposal wells, saltwater 6 

### disposal that's part of the Eagle Ford operation. 7 

### But that's primarily the economy of -- of our 8 

### county. 9 

### I would like to tell you a -- a tale of 10 

### what's happened just as an illustrative point of 11 

### some of the things that have happened. And this 12 

### is all empirical data, just through observation. 13 

### When the exploration started with the 14 

### mining -- with the exploration for the uranium, 15


### there were a lot of bore holes that were bored 16 

### where they thought that -- that the uranium might 17 

### be. Bored through all four water stands that we 18 

### have in the -- in the Evangeline Aquifer, which 19 

### is our sub aquifer of the Gulf Coast Aquifer. 20 

### Now, these bore holes are non-cased, and 21 

### they're also supposed to be plugged within 48 22112

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### hours. We found several that were months old 1


### from what we could -- from what we could tell and 2 

### what we had seen through observations that 3


### weren't. 4 

### So you had one water sand draining into 5


### other water sands. You had a lot of 6 

### contamination that was going on. 7 

### There are two State agencies that are 8 

### supposed to be monitoring our water, but in the 9 

### exploration phase, it falls under our Railroad 10 

### Commission. Under the mining phase it falls 11


### under the EPA. 12 

### But we had several citizens around the 13 

### exploration area whose water wells became 14 

### contaminated with some sort of an iron oxide. It 15 

### was plugging their -- their water wells. It was 16 

### -- their water softeners, the screens in them 17 

### were getting plugged up with this red slime. So 18 

### there was a lot of problem with that. 19 

### Don't necessarily know where it came 20 

### from, but we feel that there was some 21 

### contamination that occurred either because bore 22113

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### holes were left open or equipment wasn't cleaned 1 

### between, but something introduced the oxygen in 2 

### there in order to create the red slime and the 3 

### problems that we were having. And these were 4 

### water wells that were all around the exploration 5 

### area, not just down dip but all around it. 6 

### There were over a hundred violations with 7 

### the -- we've got one minute. Okay. There were 8 

### over a hundred violations of -- that the Railroad 9 

### Commission had found. Problem was that we 10 

### gerrymandered some of our -- the mining 11 

### boundaries after that. 12 

### Now, it went through a contested case 13 

### hearing. When it went to the contested case 14 

### hearing, the Administrative Law Judge and the 15 

### Office of Public Interest Counsel recommended not 16 

### doing the mining until more research had been 17 

### done on the aquifer where we were. 18 

### One of the Commissioners was not even 19 

### there but already had a prepared statement that 20 

### the Commission said, no, we're going to go ahead 21 

### and do the mining. So it was already a done 22114

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### deal. Not good. Not good. 1 

### Last, how is the EPA planning on dealing 2 

### with the monitoring going forward? I love the 3 

### one-year prior because I really believe that what 4 

### happened here was we created our own contaminated 5 

### aquifer in order to get the mining permit. 6 

### And we're getting down to 10 seconds or 7



### so. 8 

### (Timer ringing.) 9 

### MR. CALHOUN: So the one-year pre-op is 10 

### -- I guess I'm done unless you want me to finish 11 

### my sentence? 12


### MR. BROZOWSKI: Please. 13 

### MR. CALHOUN: Okay. The one-year pre-op 14 

### mining I think is a fantastic idea. I think the 15 

### EPA needs to think about how the state agencies 16 

### are going to work with you on clean water, 17 

### whether it's going to continue to be a rubber 18 

### stamp or whether it's going to be something else. 19 

### Thank you very much. 20 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Peter 21 

### Luthiger? 22115

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUTHIGER: I get to go again. 1 

### Again, I'm Peter Luthiger. I'm Vice2 

### President of Mestena Uranium. And that's spelled 3 

### L-U-T-H-I-G-E-R. And I appreciate EPA giving me 4 

### a couple minutes just to complete my previous 5 

### comments I had when I ran out of time from that 6 

### calibrated timing machine there. 7 

### I was talking about the economic impact 8 

### analysis at the time, and I mentioned that within 9 

### the analysis EPA utilized a value of 9.5 million 10 

### pounds of uranium, domestic uranium that's 11 

### purchased by power plants for use. And that 12 

### number was utilized in their evaluation when it's 13 

### really not the appropriate number to use. 14 

### DOE's domestic production has not been 15 

### more than 6 million pounds in the last 20 years. 16 

### And domestic production is actually around 4 to 4 17 

### and a half million pounds from all sources. 18 

### That's ISR, conventional milling, and alternate 19


### feed sources. 20 

### So the ISR production is the appropriate 21 

### value to use because that's the production 22116

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### activity that actually creates what EPA claims 1 

### are the could cause or may migrate situations. 2 

### It's the actual activity at the location. 3 

### So not sure why EPA used a value that's 9 4 

### and a half million compared to about 4 to 4 and a 5 

### half million in value for production. 6 

### And that number is important because it's 7 

### tied to how much revenue is generated by the 8 

### industry. And that's also tied to the sale 9 

### price. 10 

### EPA used the value of $57 a pound in 11 

### their economic analysis, which as I mentioned 12 

### earlier was dated November 2014, which is just 13 

### prior -- a couple months prior to publishing 14 

### these proposed rules. The current price -- 15 

### actually for the last year -- has been roughly 35 16 

### to 40 -- or $40 a pound. And no market analyst 17 

### is projecting a price of $57 anytime soon. So, 18 

### once again, it's strange why a value of $57 was 19 

### used rather than something that could have been 20 

### updated just two months prior to publishing these 21 

### proposed rules which is more reflective of actual 22117

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### price. 1 

### So when you combine the 9 and a half 2 

### million and 57, that's a big value compared to 4 3 

### and a half million to 35 to $40 for the total 4



### revenue. 5 

### Regarding the Mestena Uranium case that 6 

### was provided in the impact on small businesses, 7 

### the cost-benefit ratio that was utilized in a -- 8 

### a -- or a trend line or a trigger of 3 percent. 9 

### If you're above 3 percent, you have a significant 10 

### impact. 11 

### When EPA utilized the -- all I can say it 12 

### had to be a guess because they had no idea what 13 

### the production was, but that guess was 500,000 14 

### pounds production at a $57 a pound sale price. 15 

### Their end result in either low, average, or high 16 

### case that was in the analysis showed a -- a ratio 17 

### of less than the 3 percent. So it passed the 18 

### test of not being significant. 19 

### When the actual values are used, which 20 

### are less than the 500,000, and looking at the 21 

### regular market price, impact actually is quite 22118

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### significant. 1 

### Just as a reminder, there has not been 2 

### one documented case of contamination of a USDW in 3 

### over 30 years by -- at over 30 ISR sites in the 4 

### United States. 5 

### And I go back to my final comment about 6 

### what should we do. We request that EPA rescind 7 

### this proposed rule and then answer the question: 8 

### Is there really a problem now or in the past that 9 

### needs to be addressed? And if there is -- and 10 

### let's get engaged in a working group process with 11 

### all the stakeholders involved, and we can work 12 

### through this and come up with something. 13 

### I do want to say that I do agree 14 

### wholeheartedly with EPA's proposed typographical 15 

### corrections. 16 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 17 

### MR. PEAKE: Question. 18 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 19 

### MR. PEAKE: Will you be providing, for 20 

### the record, written comments, the numbers that 21 

### you think that we should be using? 22119

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MR. LUTHIGER: More detail will be 1 

### provided in the written comments. 2 

### MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 3


### MR. LUTHIGER: Yes. 4 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you again. 5 

### Is there anybody else in the audience who 6 

### has not had a chance to make comment, or is there 7 

### anybody who would like to make additional 8 

### comments before we close this hearing? 9 

### (Person approaches.) 10 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Once again, please, you 11 

### know, state your name and spell your last name 12 

### again, please. 13 

### MR. IRWIN: Yes, sir. My name is Raulie 14 

### Irwin, I-R-W-I-N is the last name. And there 15 

### again, I'm President of Goliad County Groundwater 16 

### Conservation District. 17 

### As I stated to you earlier, we've been 18 

### involved with this eight, going on nine years, on 19 

### a mining permit -- the application that took 20 

### place in our county, and as Judge Calhoun 21 

### mentioned to you a while ago about the 22120

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### contaminated water wells that turned blood red. 1 

### This was similar to a red tide in our 2 

### Gulf if you're familiar with that. It was kind 3 

### of a bloom that took place. We had it analyzed, 4 

### and it was an iron oxide that was taking place in 5 

### the aquifer water at about 200 feet deep. 6 

### We had this sampled several times, and 7 

### then we had eight wells in a complete circle, 8 

### both up dip and down dip of the bore holes that 9 

### were taking place that were running red. The 10 

### mining company absolutely stated it was not their 11 

### fault and that nothing that they were doing would 12 

### have caused this. 13 

### It was the funniest thing about it though 14 

### that within 90 days after they ceased drilling 15 

### their exploratory bore holes, those wells all 16 

### began to run clear water, and they're still 17 

### running clear water today; and the people are 18 

### back -- back to drinking their water. 19 

### So, we think that this pre-operational 20 

### sampling that you're talking about is very 21 

### important and would help probably ward off some 22121

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### kind of problems like this but that we are not 1 

### understanding specifically how you intend to do 2 

### this or how many times the water would be sampled 3 

### over what period of time. We assume a year. 4 

### That would certainly help. And a number of water 5 

### samplings would be taken during that period of 6 

### time, perhaps one every month or either quarter, 7 

### but they should be sampled more than one time. 8 

### At a geological conference I spoke with 9 

### several geologists about this water and also 10 

### about arsenic turning up in the water. And we 11 

### were advised that one sampling was not adequate 12 

### enough to determine just where this was coming 13 

### from or how acute it was or anything else, that 14 

### it all needed to be sampled two or three times to 15 

### have enough adequate data to really process 16 

### something and determine what was happening. 17 

### So for that reason we certainly encourage 18


### you. 19 

### There is no fund for restoring a water 20 

### well that might lie 100 feet outside of the 21 

### mining area. There's absolutely none. 22122

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### We requested -- we requested this from 1 

### the mining company just as they have to put up a 2 

### bond, we understand that when they their permit. 3 

### We requested a fund to restore water wells that 4 

### might come up outside of the area. We requested 5 

### either a bond or a cash deposit in order to do 6 

### this. The answer was absolutely no. 7 

### At one time we were offered an amount of 8 

### money provided the mining company was the only 9 

### one to determine if the water well was 10 

### contaminated by their actions and how much money 11 

### that they would be allowed to, you know, reclaim 12 

### for water well restoration. The mining company 13 

### would control this completely. Of course, this 14 

### was not satisfactory to us. 15 

### This is just -- in our area there were 11 16 

### domestic livestock wells -- these are family 17 

### wells -- that were peripheral to the mining area 18 

### and all located within a half a mile of where the 19 

### mining was to take place. And there's no 20 

### protection for any of those wells if they become 21 

### contaminated. 22123

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Thank you. Appreciate it. 1 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you again. Anyone 2


### else? 3 

### (Indicating.) 4 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, ma'am, come on up. 5 

### MS. NORRELL: My name is Carroll -- 6 

### MR. BROZOWAKI: Please have a seat, and 7 

### speak into the microphone, please. 8 

### MS. NORRELL: My name is Carroll, Carroll 9 

### Norrell. Norrell is spelled N-O-R-R-E-L-L. And 10 

### Carrol is C-A-R-R-O-L -- a lot of R's and L's. 11 

### Not my plan to speak to speak with you 12 

### tonight, but I just wanted to say thank you also 13 

### for the efforts that are being made. 14 

### There's -- there -- I think what I have 15 

### heard here tonight are two different 16 

### perspectives. The gentleman who spoke earlier 17 

### with his distinguishing tie that denounced the 18 

### uranium industry spoke a great deal about the 19 

### economy and the economic impact. We are speaking 20 

### with you about impact on groundwater. There is a 21 

### significant difference. 22124

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### Economic impact is extremely important, 1 

### and no one is asking anyone to quit an industry; 2 

### but you cannot do economic benefit by destroying 3 

### the most precious of resources that we have. 4 

### And so that's what I want to bring to 5 

### your attention in my short moment with you here 6 

### today is. 7 

### The group that's here with you today from 8 

### Goliad has spoken some very significant facts 9 

### that are in record that have been brought out in 10 

### multiple places and with you previously. They 11 

### are available to you, and I think you have 12 

### reviewed some of that. 13 

### These are facts. And the impact on 14 

### groundwater is extremely important. And if -- if 15 

### we have to weigh between economic impact and 16 

### groundwater, I think groundwater issue needs to 17


### come to the surface. 18 

### So thank for your time. 19 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 20 

### MS. SCHEURICH: Well, Peter has inspired 21 

### me to speak a second time today. 22125

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376

### My name is Venice Scheurich, S-C-H-E-U-R1


### I-C-H. 2 

### When I spoke earlier today, as you know, 3 

### I was speaking on behalf of the Coastal Bend 4 

### Sierra Club. My message is, of course, the same 5 

### except I would like to extend that a little bit 6 

### now to simply the statistical practice. 7 

### What I didn't get to mention earlier was 8 

### that as someone who's worked with statistics for 9 

### most of my professional career, I was just 10 

### delighted to see that you are recommended that in 11 

### these procedures, the 2009 statistical analysis 12 

### of groundwater monitoring be followed. 13 

### I have looked at that quite thoroughly 14 

### because I'm interested in that field, and I -- I 15 

### think that it is flexible enough -- flexible 16 

### enough so that industry can find something that's 17 

### statistically valid which will accomplish their 18 

### goals without great economic stress or any 19 

### economic stress in most cases; but it will 20 

### prevent errors that have been made for many years 21 

### in Texas regulations, not because anybody is bad 22126

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### or people are poor scientists; it's simply that 1 

### there's too much to look at and our scientists 2 

### are expected to be also statisticians. They have 3


### a lot to do. 4 

### I was delighted that two of the people 5 

### from TCEQ spoke earlier about how the records are 6 

### being improved and maybe some more work will be 7 

### done on the rules in Texas. 8 

### One of the things that I think is a 9 

### unifying concept is it's -- statistics doesn't 10 

### choose sides, as everybody in the room knows. 11 

### It's got to be -- if it's going to be valid -- 12 

### there is a lot of flexibility within invalidity, 13 

### but it -- certain things are wrong, and we just 14 

### have to stop those wrong things. And it's good 15 

### for industry. It's good for NGOs like the Sierra 16 

### Club, and certainly it's good for regulators to 17 

### have that certainty. So I do like the guidance. 18 

### And one of the quotes that I found -- 19 

### I've talked earlier and many times before on that 20 

### non-random location of baseline wells. So a 21 

### quote that I found in the guidance says the best 22127

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### protection against an unrepresentative sample is 1 

### to select measurements from the population at 2 

### random. Many of you here think I'm a broken 3 

### record, but that was so astounding to me when I 4 

### first heard that companies could choose in that 5 

### production area exactly where they wanted the 6 

### locations to be. 7 

### It would be so easy to use one of any two 8 

### or three methods to get a random sample of 9 

### locations. And that would be a good beginning, a 10 

### very good beginning. 11 

### I was reading an earlier EPA document on 12 

### guidance for choosing a sampling design for 13 

### environmental data collection. And here's 14 

### another good quote which is so true. I don't 15 

### think anybody in the room would disagree with it. 16 

### If a sampling design results in the 17 

### collection of a non-representative sample even 18 

### the highest quality for laboratory analysis 19 

### cannot compensate for lack of good data. 20 

### So, I just hope -- 21 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute. 22128

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### MS. SCHEURICH: -- that as you move 1 

### forward, you will keep in mind some of the 2 

### statements that you've heard from people who have 3 

### experienced this -- Duval County, Goliad County, 4 

### Kleberg County, and also please, for the sake of 5 

### someone who taught statistics for 30 years, you 6 

### know, keep in mind good valid statistical 7 

### practice. Thank you. 8


### MR. PEAKE: Just one second for the 9 

### people who are taking the records, you referenced 10 

### a 2009 document, what is it? Could you state the 11 

### title of that? 12


### MS. SCHEURICH: Well -- 13 

### MR. PEAKE: Is it -- 14 

### MS. SCHEURICH: -- the one --the title, I 15 

### don't know if I got it all, but I quickly jotted 16 

### down Statistical Analysis of Groundwater 17 

### Monitoring Data at RCRA facilities. 18 

### MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 19 

### MS. SCHEURICH: That's one you know. I 20 

### think it's in your -- 21 

### MR. PEAKE: Yes, I just wanted to get it 22129

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 1100 Connecticut Avenue NW, #810, Washington, DC 20036 Washington: 202-898-1108 • Baltimore: 410-752-3376

Toll Free: 888-445-3376 

### for the record. 1 

### MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you very much. 2 

### If there are no further comments, I 3 

### conclude this public hearing tonight. We thank 4 

### you very much for coming out, and we ask you to 5 

### drive home safely and carefully. Thank you. 6 

### [Whereupon, at 6:52 p.m., the public 7 

### hearing was concluded.] 8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22