Note: The output shown below is from the

Communication Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the On

- Board Circulation and Seating Subcommittee meeting # 8 and is generally unedited
. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real

- time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.
UNITED STATES ACCESS BOARD RAIL VEHICLES ACCESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON

- BOARD CIRCULATION AND SEATING MTG #8 SUBCOMMITTEE TELECONFERENCE Thursday, August 14, 2014 1 :00 p.m. >> Okay we will begin to start good afternoon this is Paul Beatty welcome to the 8t h meet of the on

- board circulation seating subcommittee. A s you know since everybody

-- anyone may participate in subcommittee discussions no time for public comment is scheduled during this call. T he CART chat box is not available. F orthose participan ts who are only using CART to participate

and you desire to raise a question or make a statement. Use RVAAC @ access

- board.gov. W hen talking on the line remember to give your name. A s a reminder the next meeting will most likely occur during full committee meeting time September 11

- 12 specific time slot not established yet. Let's introduce those in attendance starting with Access Board staff in the room Melissa Anderson Jim Pecht myself and Rose Bunales. Let's go to Rose you indicated who is on the con ference call? >> I will do that now. O perating, I am going to call out their names I will have them respond with their name and organization, and we are going to do that as a line check. C ould you listen out for those lines that need whose volumes need t o be boosted? A nd I do have Blair Slaughter in the room now. O kay. Starting with Eloy Martinez. C an you restate your name please and agency you represent? >>Eloy Martinez with engineering services supporting Texas Railway. >> Please boost, Martinez' li ne. >> Glenn? >> (inaudible) >> Glenn Millis are you on the line?>> Yes. G lenn Millis Washington Metropolitan Transit

Authority. >> The line is good Robert Reuter. >> I apologize, is this was a life meeting we had a major thunderstorm that knocked out ou r phones >> Please boost Mr. Reuter's line, please. >> Michael Porter. >> Michael Porter, high

- speed rail. >> Please boost Mr. Porter's >> Don Mebius. >> Don Mebius in Pennsylvania. >> Operator, please boost Don's line please. A nd Don could you spell your last name, please? >> You bet. M as in Mary, EBIUS. **NOTE: M EBIUS. >> Uwe Rutenberg. >> Yes. I am here representing ICAT from Montreal. >> Please boost his line please. A ndre Gagne? >> Andre Gagne with Bombardier. >> Boost his line please, operator. >> Emily Bacque. >> Hi Emily for the Area Rapid Transit. >> Boost her line, please. >> Marilyn Golden.>> Hi, Marilyn Golden, Disability Rights Education and

Defense Fund or DREDF >> Jonathan Michel. >> Representing (inaudible) >> I can hear him through assistive listening but it's not coming through the air. >> Please boost his line, please. >> Francis Mascarenhas >> Yes, representing Chicago. >> the line is good. >> Ken Shiotani. >> Ken Shiotani National Disability Rights Network. >> Please boost Mr. S hiotani's line, please. >> Linda Martin? H i, this is Linda Martin. I am with the Federal Railroad Administration. >> Jennifer Hu. >> Yes, Jennifer, I am with Texas Central Railway. >> Please boost Jennifer's line. B lair Slaughter is oh, disconnected aga in. O kay. Aaron Weinstein >> Aaron Weinstein with BART. >> PAUL BEATTY: This is Paul speaking, since Blair is not currently on the line, I will turn it over to Melissa. >> Okay. T his is Melissa Anderson with the Access Board, hopefully Blair will be b ack with us shortly so we cankeep moving we will get started with the agenda. D oes

anybody have any comments or additions to the agenda? >> I will note Dennis Cannon is also on the line now. >> Do you want to do sound check >> Dennis Cannon could you state your name and agency please? >> Dennis Cannon National Disability Rights Network. >> The line is good okay. >> Thank you Dennis. O kay. S o, we are going to go ahead an get started on the agenda, and I think Blair's main go al is to try to complete as much of the matrix that we started last time as possible. A nd the matrix that was sent out and the

-- it's available on the website. T he numbers that are in red or the ones that don't have anything in parentheses are the ones

-- the things that we decided on at the last committee meeting. T he numbers that show up in green or say discuss after them are things that Blair went through and filled out just so we would have it's kind of our strawman so these are the numbers that we have to discuss and negotiate. A nd then, the numbers that are in blue, and say new in parentheses are things that have been added. And that you haven't seen before. S o, is Blair still not with us? O kay. Last month we talked about the doorway widths be tween the cars. A nd the decision was madeto
-- for rapid rail to go with 32 inches in width except the

cab ends of the cars that would be 30 inches. T here are extensive notes with these. H e has note 2 an explanation that the 30 inch clear opening is a legitimate

-- a legitimate compromise for the operator viewing area. And then note 7, that there may be safety devices used by the railroad crews at the ends of the cars which may also reflect some of the dimensions that he woo can have in the doorway. So , now he has gone down and filled in 32 inches minimum for the doorways for both for light rail commuter rail inner

- city rail and that's also with PRIIA single level and bi

- level inter

- city cars have. D oes anyone have any comments or suggestions the 32 in ches is larger than the current 30 inches on light rail commuter rail. A nd is consistent with the current inner

- city rail. A ny discussion from anyone, any desire to make it wider or objections to making it that width? >> This is Dennis Cannon. T he 30 in ches was based on the discussion about from rail car manufacturers that the collision posts, vertical posts on each side of the door, that was the maximum you could get. A nd that those were not things that you could take out or move or whatever. But we h ave heard from both FRA and I guess Linda and soforth that the current rail the collision posts are spaced

wider so it's now possible to do a 32 inches. A s I said the 30 inches was only because we were led to believe that there was

-- you couldn't make i t any bigger. >> Bob Reuter, I missed some of

-- all of the last meeting. O ne of the things that on the matrix that seems to be missing is the part H starting the 49 part 38 subpart H other vehicles. T he monorails, automatic guide way (inaudible) actuall y >> Can you speak up please? >> I'm sorry in 49 CFR 38 subpart H there is other vehicles monorails tramways automated guide ways and this thing. We need to make sure that we include those into your guidelines. A nd probably should be included in the matr ix. >> And we will include those in our recommendations. I don't know if we want to add them right now or if we want to try to get through the matrix so we can get this done and then come back and address those. T here is quite a variety in those types of vehicles. >> Bob: T hat's right I don't think we should do it now but I don't think we can ignore those because they are becoming popular now. >> Melissa: R ight. H e is. Let's add those later.>> Marsha Mazz: Is the question

-- >> Melissa? >> Hi, this is Blair. >> Melissa: G reat. >> He is back. >> Rose: Iwas trying to give the hand signal to Melissa. >> Blair: I have to apologize, we are in North Carolina, I can literally see a cell phone tower from where I am at. I have the most horrendous recepti on on Verizon and AT&T. M y apologies. T he Internet is not working at all through the phones or anything I don't know what is going on. Iprinted everything out before I left yesterday but I don't have access to the photo that was sent out this morning. I am trying to download that on the

-- on another phone to see if I can see it. A s far as adding those items that's a very good point, Bob. W hen we -- because I have

-- you know, you and others have sent in floor plans of some of the other vehicles like monorails, and so I have that information, I have scaled it. I think it would be wise also to add that to the matrix so we can feed that back ultimately to the larger committee. B ut I will take whatever we generate out of this and plug it into those veh icles to see how it works. W ith the thinking thatyou know, restricted dimensions are just that, and it's

-- it

should be as close to the same for all vehicles but, of course, as we see with like rapid rail, because the vehicle itself and monorails can be very narrow it may be very difficult to accommodate all of those larger dimensions and still have a vehicle that will work. S o, it will certainly do that. A nd thanks for plugging that in. So, Melissa I have to apologize, I came in and you were beginning to talk about the doorway width. S o, what else did I miss? >> Melissa: You didn't miss anything. We started on the agenda I gave them explanation of the colors and notes in parentheses. A nd then we started

-- I started down doing door widths and we di dn't seem to have a lot of objection. D ennis explained the 30 inch collision post restriction that was in in the past but is changed. >> Isn't this

-- this is Marilyn from DREDF that's the second aisle right Melissa? A s I understand it, there is a good reason to change that to

-- all of those to 32. T he ones that aren't 32. >> Melissa: R ight. 3 2 gives people enough room to get through a doorway. A nd that's consistent with the building standards. S o, you know, I don't think we want to be any less than that unless there is a legitimate structuralreason. >> And Melissa, this is Blair again. I think that the

-- where it becomes an issue we talked about it at the last call was with some of the rapid rail, some of the smaller width vehicles that have cabs on the end and yet they have a doorway connecting the car that the 30 inch minimum reduces the field of vision for the driver. Andre Gagne put together some notes on vehicles that Bombardier had information on to give an example of what happened to the fi eld of vision with that. A nd that's

-- that's attached on the back of the agenda. S o, what I had put in from last time was that note 32 inches except at cab end of transit cars. A nd then, of course there is note 2 and note 7, that expound on that. S o, if you want, we can
-- we can jump over and look at that

-- the information that Andre sent or if everyone is okay with leaving it with that caveat of 30 inches for the cab ends, we can do that. I t's

-- what's the thinking there folks >> Bob Reuter most o f the rapid rail comes with cab it wouldn't have the problem of limited visibility. Ithink this should only apply when there is a half

- size cab. >> This is Andre Gagne from Bombardier. Ithink it depends you can make cabs half width or also a smaller cab. T hat's a half width or full width con figure it. W hatyou see I look at the matrix I see 32 inches except at cab

ends which would be 30 inches
. B ut for some to authorities it could be an issue when I look at Chicago they have very small vehicles, and the ends are narrow as well and they are lower than the regular car bodies. S o, this would be a very, very big issue for them. >> That's why I am saying Bob Reuter again 32 inch should apply in full cab not the half width cab. >> Andre: T he driver is on the right side. >> Some places it's on the left side >> Still, the collision post spaced too wide you don't have (inaudible) you are going to have nothing (inaudible) >> Bob: I t has awful windows. >> Andre: W hat I suggest the cab leave it as open as possible on the other end leave it at 32 inches. >> Andre can you speak up please? >> Yes, I will try to. >> Thank you. >> Andre: A nd another thing a lso that you have the cab door it's not just the end door but the cab door separates the cab area from the passenger area. T hat door also would have to be made 32 inches it reduces the actual width of the cab. S o, that's

-- there is two issues there. >> Bob: T hat wouldn't apply in a full width cab>> Andre: You have full width cabs I have half cabs >> I am only talking full width cabs. >> We have to have rule for all not just some types of vehicles. >> Bob: T he United States I think everything is full width cabs in the last few years. >> Andre: You have to look at it again. >> Bob: O ther than Chicago, who hasn't gotten full width cab, Philadelphia are getting them in and the port authority of putting them into their cars. >> Andre: W hen you say full width cab, there is a door in the middle at the front end and you still have to go through and the driver is on the right side. S o there is limited visibility if you space out the collision posts. T hat's the problem. T he driver is never in the center. For instance, Montreal subways the new vehicles with full width cab there is a single windshield that covers pretty much the whole end in this particular case I agree with you. T here is no door owe there is no issues there if you have a full width cab and that's the configuration because there is no door there is no front end door. Even though you have a half width

-- full width cab you are still going to have a door small windshield if you make the door wider. T he main function of this door is to get th e driver out, not necessarilyto get the passengers out. A nd the main function of the

cab to is to make sure that the driver can driver drive the vehicle and see in front of him. >> The end door is an emergency exit from rapid rail vehicle. >> There are m any more doors to exit >> Not in an emergency. >> This is one of them. >> Melissa: A re there any other comments on topic? Some of these things we can

-- the committee can make recommendations as we sent them out to industry

-- I mean, if there are 19 inc hes and 32 inches is a big difference. S o, we need to resolve that at some point. B ut we can make

-- we can make recommendations to the full committee and then if we don't really resolve it we can send questions out to the industry with the notice of rul emaking to get more input. >> Andre:

-- >> If I could ask, is Don Mebius, what is the scenario if a person in a wheelchair goes through the cab area and through the end door in case of an emergency what then? Because that's quite a height from the top of rail. >> This is Ken Shiotani. I mean, sometimes the evacuation will be through a, you know, an adjacent train.I mean, it depends on the type of emergency it is. >> Yes. >> This is Dennis Cannon. O ne thing that

-- in many cases we are going to assume t hat the wheelchair doesn't make it. I mean, you want to get somebody out you are going to carry them out probably that's what happened in a lot of

-- in WMATA they developed a thing EJAC I don't remember what it stands for emergency something or other. T hey developed it years ago and we had Florida crash and air Florida crash and tunnel crash and so forth. It's a platform that folds up on legs that has wheels that fit on the track. T here are several that you can see, there is a box in most of the transi t stations, if you look for it one of the ends. T hat device is a level platform that purpose was to be able to put at least two stretchers on it and maybe three. I t's the same level as the car for

-- you deploy it on to the track, you roll it up to the e nd of the car, and you evacuate people on to it. A nd in theory you could evacuate somebody with a wheelchair on to that device. A nd you hand roll it down to the station. I t's not powered or anything. >> Bob Reuter. T he new Toronto cars the whole front of the center drops down and becomes a ramp step item to the center of the tracks.>> Andre: T hat's correct because it's fairly narrow

because you have a driver again on the cab side. Two wind shields to exits to evacuate people >> It meets the Ontario accessibility laws I am not sure what they are up there. >> Do we know the width of the Toronto cars? >> I have there specs here somewhere it will take me a if you minutes to find it. >> Andre: Ican che ck that as well. >> And as far as always be on the right side of the cab, I was just looking here I thought so Baltimore runs on the left side because they have all island platforms. S o, it is not universal. >> Andre: You have left and right mostly right and some drivers are in the center of the vehicle. >> That's true. >> Andre: I t's mostly right mostly right side there are a few exceptions though, you are correct. T his is Andre again. Regarding the evacuation one way of doing it I think the question was pertinent. W hat then? S o, if you get the wheelchair through that door, let's make it 32 inches I think the front end, what then? O kay. I f you have a ramp what then? You are still on

-- still on the ties, right? Rail ties. So, one way of dealing with this right now there is nothingthat I believe you may have stretchers but something like an

evacuation chair like they have in buildings could be interesting as well. P rovide a device to get people out safely of the vehicles. >> This is Blair. A ndre, you bring up a very good point. I was thinking about that earlier is if the issue for the end of train is primarily for evacuation it's not a car to car circulation convenience, really, I know in 49 CFR 38 and elsewhere the FRA has requirements for eme rgency preparedness, those kinds of things. Idon't know if it's within the Access Board's arena to require that as part of accessibility that the authorities have evacuation plans that include, you know, evacuation chairs or other methods that allow for you know safe evacuation from the train in an emergency. >> This is an operational issue that would be handled by the DOT reg. >> This is Bob Reuter again. M ost systems every car is a married pair. W ith a cab at either end. S o, they would be in the center of the train. A nd you could need that door for car to car evacuation. W hich would extend the chair for. I f a disabled train came down and a working train backed into it and they transferred through the end doors on to the working train, so that they could takethem

-- take people to a station. S o, those doors are not

just at end of the train. >> Well, Bob this is Blair. I n that case with married pairs, Andre typically there is a blind or F end or B end of the cars. S o the B ends are always coupled and so cab

-- there is no

-- they are not cab to cab they are B end to B end with the cabs pointing the opposite directions, right? >> Right. W hen you pull a 6 or 8

- car train together you will have three or four A end to A end connections. >> Right, right , okay. >> This is Linda at FRA. I am not an expert on part 238. Idon't think it applies to rapid transit you know Metro type trains configurations in any case. I t applies to
-- it applies to inter city and commuter and maybe some others. B ut generall y not Metro type. >> You are referring to collision posts? >> No, the emergency dress requirements is what Linda is talking about it's applicable to inner

- city passenger rail and commuter rail. I t's not applicable to heavy rail, light rail vehicles or peo ple movers things are that nature those fall under different requirements. >> This is Blair. T hey fall under FTA versus FRA are there requirements there and if I remember correctly, therearen't specific requirements that talk about removing

people with d isabilities or using wheelchairs. T hough, certainly, you know, you would think that that would be included by fault but not necessarily without saying it. >> Yeah, I am not saying that there aren't requirements part 238 I think just applies to inner

- city and commuter. >> Certainly, certainly. I just

-- and I should that because I didn't know if the FTA had similar language in their documents or not. B ut, again, I just

-- I was curious if it was within

-- since we are talking about accessibility, in this group, is it within the Access Board's realm to address that. Irealize from what Dennis said it's an operational issue but it's a disparate of it don't

-- don't really accommodate the operational issue then it's almost a moot point. >> We can certainly regulate, and we do the door width is now 30 inches and assume that you can evacuate people in that direction, the plan of have you

-- the plan of how you get people down to the track bed and then move them across the ties or whatever, that is not an issue that that has anything to do with what we are working on. We can talk about the door width itself. I guess we could

-- we could mandate a ramp if we wanted to do that,that doesn't seem to be very practical to me. B ecause you

have the same problem as

-- say you get a person in a wheelchair down on to the track bed, then what? T he assumptions here is that in most cases, we hope that you are going to be met by rescue personnel, fire and what not, and that they are going to essentially if they have to carry you out. >> That may be the only way that you are going to get out of that tunnel, for example. >> Unless you happen to be in Vancouver. W hich if anybody is familiar with

-- they had two major shut downs and everybody got out of the cars and walked out. >> Wheelchair users? >> I didn't see any. >> Yeah. Imean that's the issue. We don't

-- >> That's the issue and I have no idea what happened to those folks in Vancouver when the whole system shut down. I t happened twice two weeks ago. S o, but my conce rn here is not getting down on to the track, but the preferred method of rescue is to send a rescue train out if at all possible. T hen you go train to train. >> Right. I f it's just a stalled train, that just c an't move you bring a rescue train. I f there is a crash, you know it's a different kind of situation. A nd then you aregoing to get carried out and ambulatory people is going to

get carried out it's different. >> I am just referring to the car to car tra nsfer. A nd that would even occur in a regular subway train. I f you go down into the Metro there in DC you have cab cars to cab car almost three or four times in every train. >> Okay. Well, I am not sure that

-- what we are up against, I think though is that we had a vehicle when we start getting to the smaller vehicles like the subways, and more restrictive over systems that have physical not just vehicle issues but there is the overwhelming system that affects the vehicle size, and we are going to get d own always to the same problem. >> This would have to be a case by case exception. Chicago and month real might be the same of

-- type of systems that are exceptions. >> This is Dennis Cannon. We can debate this all we want, and we are not going to have en ough information. I think that we should leave it the way it is for now. A nd ask as part of our report that the Access Board during the comment period request specific information on the feasibility of making the indoors 32 inches. >> The end cab doors versus the

-- >> Yeah.>> The end inter car doors. I mean, sometimes you

might have a situation where something goes wrong with the lead cab car but the rest of the train is good and you want to get between

-- you want to get to the other pair matched pair car, you know, person in a chair should be able to do that, you know, with

-- with

-- >> Cab (inaudible) >> Pardon? >> If you go to the next matched pair you have to get to a cab. >> I meant to the neck

-- to the other end

-- the other car of the pair. >> Um

- hmm. >> Again, you know, there are all of these scenarios where a train could stop, one car out of the station versus two cars out of the station in the middle of the tunnel

-- there are all of these different scenarios but I think that there is no bar rier to making the noncab end doors 32 inches. >> I agree with you. >> That is what it says. T here is a question about whether it's an issue on the cab ends with the operator et cetera. >> This is Melissa.>> Okay. >> Is that you Blair? >> Yes that's me g o ahead Melissa. >> I was going to suggest these are draft numbers at the moment. W hen we look more at how everything fits in the car plans we will revisit these. Iwould encourage you guys to move on. >> This is Ken, could we move back to the side doors on rapid rail though? Iknow this was a bit of a conscientious discussion last time and I was on one side of the issue. B ut I think that I am switching towards the other side of the issue given that I have seen some rail

-- some rapid rail cars with fai rly wide door openings. I asked Andre, you know, to give me some information and this is not information

-- this is information he just gave me this morning. B ut there are, you know, the typical side car width for double doors in rapid rail is in the 50 inch range. And that was something that I think Frank Maldari stressed quite a bit the last time. B ut there are systems that have wider openings and we have on the phone people from BART and they have 54

- inch clear openings with twin doors. A nd the exam ple that I had found on the web was, I think either San a Polo I sent picture to people in the group or Rio De Janeiro, I forget which city, I am sorry, I am notthat familiar. T hey are

-- I did find that some rapid transit

systems have chosen to do fairl y wide door openings and Andre sent me an E

- mail this morning saying that in Santo San Paulo, they have 63

- inch openings with twin doors Puerto Alegre Lima is 55 and Santiago they have 55 and 63

- inch clear openings. Iwant to revisit the discussion that we had about the possibility of

-- the board recommend that each leaf in a double door, side door, rapid rail car, be 32 inches. S o that would be a 64

- inch wide opening. You know I was a little reluctant about it in the last call but I have rethought this , given that I have done some research and I have this new information that it is done. You know, I do think that you know it helps everybody. I t makes boarding and alighting for ambulatory people and wheelchair users easier to have a wider door opening. The one caveat that I see there are some rapid rail systems that use awfully short train cars. Idon't know whether a 64

- inch wide clear opening in those cars make

-- I mean, whether in those cars the trade

- off of other space might be too great. Imean, the path cars the click go transit authority cars and the New York City IRT cars I think they use a different jargon now for the shorter cars. B ut when I was growing up it was the IRT cars. A nd Ithink the Boston blue line cars are all pretty short arou nd

50 feet long give or take? >> That's correct. >> So, you know 64

- inch doors on those cars might be an issue for most other rails that use 60 or 75

- foot long cars I don't think a 64

- inch door width you know so that each leaf is 32 so a wheelchair user ca n get out when one door fails. T hat was the issue, was, um, doors do fail sometimes and they sometimes one door fails. A nd if you are in a 50

- inch door width and a 25

- inch door opens the wheelchair user is struck and has to go to another door which they may be not I believe to maneuver to another door in a crowded train. O r they end up at the next stop or next stop after that. I f it's not across the board transfer. It is a very different experience if you can't get off at the stop that you want to get off on or can't get on at the stop you want to because a leaf in a 50

- inch

- ish or 55

- inch even door fails. A nd you are a wheelchair user. S o, again, I don't know how you do it in a rulemaking. W hen there are long rail cars where I think it's very practi cal and a bunch of shorter rail systems where I can see that it is a concern whether 64

- inch doors two or three sets of 64

- inch indoors in train or blue line train whether that really comes into the rest of the space in the car or not. B ut it does seem li ke it'syou know it is done in other systems, I don't think that the

Frank's concerns about doors being too heavy and not moving or you know reliability. Ijust don't

-- I don't buy that. Ijust

-- you know, I do think there is a concern about it does ta ke up more of the length of the car but I think in the longer rapid transit cars it can help everybody get on and off quickly. >> Well, Ken, this is Blair. A nd I understand where you are coming from. A nd there are some very short vehicles where you end u p with all doors pretty much. A ll of them. T hat's exaggerating. B ut that's why I refer to note 1 to cover some of our discussion last time. O ne of the comments was 32

- inch single door would be prohibitive for door system design. We do see we got them out there at 63 inches. T here was talk about the door leafs being air locked so you wouldn't get a single failure. You could have a dual failure. A nd then having both leafs with emergency capability for release, because you could in theory no matter what the operating system was, you could have both doors fail and it wouldn't matter how wide the door was they would both be in failure mode you couldn't get out until someone pulled the emergency release for those doors. A nd then I think

-- a key elements regardless of what the door size is, and maybe that's the thing that part Cand part D of note 1 or what ultimately would take care of

it. T hat communication method or device provided at the door area to alert the driver or operator to ensure that passeng ers do not get stuck on the car because of inoperative doors. T he device location must (inaudible). And then that coupled with both leafs must have emergency release feature if the doors in failure mode, maybe the only way that you open that door is to p ull a release that relieves it mechanically and lets it be pushed open. I think those two items regardless of the door width are key to making sure that people don't get carried to the next stop or you know to the end of the line because they can't get ou t of the door can't maneuver to the next set of doors because of other restrictive passageways. S o, I don't know that we -- if we want to, you know, belabor the 32

- inch single leaf, that could be something that we could write up so we are recommending that and asked for industry response there may be some other structural issues that I am not aware of. A nd that apply in states that don't apply in other countries and cities, cars. I don't know. B ut that's one of the what if's. A nd so if that

-- if we le an on those

-- if we lean on note 1, and particularly part C and D do that cover the majority of the concerns for getting stuck on the car? >> This is bob Reuter. P robably the concerns ofgetting stuck on the car however some systems are starting

to run very late night service and off hour service. A nd the operator actually collects the fares and check the fares they are only using a single leaf right behind the driver's cab. >> but they have to be accessible right? W hatever they are doing they have to b e accessible >> They use a single leaf that would have to be accessible. I am not sure how they are doing it at the moment. T he only time I used they opened all the doors. They were using it out further out on the line where the stations weren't manned I was opening

-- I was observing it in Cleveland >> My guess is they are not complying. >> I suspect talking to the operator he has the choice of opening just the first leaf or all of the doors. H e didn't have a choice of opening both leafs at the first door. >> Well, there may be

-- someone pointed out to me yesterday that depending on the time of operation and they actually have seen this occur in the summers, that time of day and things like that you may not

-- the operator may not want to open all of the doors fully because it begins to mull up the heat systems if you are having implement weather having flexibility to open up. B ut never being able to deny access or sex sit

-- deny access or exit because ofthat, I think, would be critical. You know, some of the

systems can be

-- in high temperatures you open all of the doors, you get this great inrun some time off in the future the car cools down again. I mean, there are other pass nerve comfort issues that come into play. B ut for us I think the key is that we

-- we stick to making sure that the vehicle can accommodate people on and off no matter what the situation is. A nd without overly restricting the design of the vehicle. A nd I hear what Ken is saying. Again, I don't know all of the ins and o uts of providing big door openings >> I would suspect in the future that based on some of the wrecks that we have seen, in recent times, structural requirements for vehicles are going to get tighter not looser. T hey probably won't stay where they are. A n d those things tend

-- the bigger the doorways are the bigger the structural issues keep the integrity of the vehicle. S o, again, I am not

-- I am not making excuses but I am trying to think about holistically the vehicle. B ut I think the key thing is, n o matter where we leave this as far as the door width goes and maybe the way of dealing with that we recommend a 32

- inch leaf and ask for industry comment. But that we are pretty hard

- nosed about the emergency communication and stop and the ability to unl atch thosedoors independently of one another from the door operator.

And that

-- that in fact can be very critical forgetting out. If you have a place where the car body is twisted or damaged those kind of things

-- and it gives at the doors. When you begin to rely on big single leafs. T he chance of that big single leaf getting inhibited is probably more than a smaller leaf. B ut you still want to be able to unlatch those leaves independently and push them open as much as you can to get out. S o, I thi nk that is a key element for sure >> This is Bob Reuter I thought that requirement was already in the regs. >> You know, Bob, I would have to go back and dig up you know FTA information and see what their

-- Dennis maybe you are aware of something? A nd maybe that's part of the research that happen when is we get further into this. But I think for me the answer is

-- it answers the concern of getting off the train and not getting stuck. Iknow there is stop request buttons and those kind of things but do they also have the same functionality. Ipress a stop request for a door open and the door doesn't open is there something that I could do to say hey the director couldn't open I am still here or does the driver think well the door opened people left here we go.>> I think you have to have the communication device

but I think every door currently has the independent release where you have to get up and move a lever or push a button or something like that to unlock the doors they can be manually pushed open
. I think the communication of the operator device is key. >> I don't believe that true Metro only the center door has the release mechanism >> Only the center door? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> This is Andre Gagne from bomb become I looked at the width of the dev ice that we have on the TTC rocket. And it is ramp is 28 inches wide. >> Okay. >> Andre: Afew inches short of 32 inches. >> Which car was that Andre? >> That's the rocket Toronto rocket >> The new subways in Toronto. >> the cars in Toronto >> What? >> t he newest subway cars used in the Toronto system. >> That's correct.>> I have a picture of the one of the ramps deployed if

anybody wants to see it. >> Okay. >> Bombardier has a lot of them I am sure. >> Okay. J ust
-- do we want to recommend or -- recomm end that the 32 ink gel leaves or the 30 inch single leaf as minimum and ask for industry comment back on this. >> This is Ken, I could live with that. >> That sounds good. >> That's a good idea. >> Good. >> And do we want to go to 32 or 30? S omeone that is a 63

- inch door they have 63 >> That's the largest that Andre said exist that he can find. >> This is Andre again. W hat I did just to explain what I

-- the information that I provided. I sent Ken information about existing systems in not existing systems but technical specifications for newer vehicles in the south American market. T hey may have different door openings on their existing cars. B ut what I found is that in the recent RFPs for Sal Polo and (inaudible) they came up with 63

- inch clear opening and same thing for Santiago theyrequire 55 and 63

- inch clear opening with twin doors.

With close to 64

- inch opening that would be required if we want to have a 32

- inch single leaf door open willing. >> Remember one

-- this is Dennis remember one thing too, a 64

- inch double leaf door requires 128 inches of wall space. B ecause the doors have to retract. A nd that means that that wall space doesn't have any windows in it too. S o, it's not just the case of

-- >> (inaudible). >> Excuse me? >> There a re some car designs that I think have windows. You know, they are not clear windows but there is a window, the door slides into the slot and there is a window on the outside. Ithink I have seen photos of that. It's not adds clear as a regular window. I can see that the issue is the floor space is for seating and wheelchair spaces, you know, you make 64

- inch wide door you lose side much car space. Iknow think in the larger cars, the longer cars it's

-- it makes sense to try and advocate for that and s ee what the industry says in terms of you know, stresses, car strengths and other stuff. B ecause obviously a bigger door means more you need more framing to make the car more secure. B ut I just

-- you know, it's, I think it's not the windows it's the fix ed floor space. B ecause I have seendesigns where, you know, there is glass. You know,

-- >> (inaudible) >> the door you see the door so it's not like a clear window. B ut you do get the light and you do

-- you can see you know whether you are in a stati on, what station you are in, and you know, again, it depends on how clean they keep the windows, but I have seen that design. S o, I think the real issue is fixed floor space available for seating and wheelchair cases and all of that. B ut in a longer car, I am -- you know, I think that it makes sense. I am -- I can see in the shorter cars it may be an issue. I t may be difficult. >> This is Bob Reuter. Ithink if I was running a system that wide a car I needed that wide a door I would go from 3 doors to 2. D o you have fewer door sets. >> Look, what I will do this is Blair. I will

-- I will write something up to go with these conditions. A nd circulate it to everyone for comment. B ut I think the idea is that we are going to go for a wider single door le af, ask for industry comment, we will add the safety caveat that we discussed about communications and

-- >> Right. T hose are very important. A nd that's

-- >> Right. A s an operator my only concern with a larger door it takes longer to open and close.>> True. T rue. T hat's the sort of comments that I

think we need. A nd with the goal, of course, being that we -- at the end of the day the doors open and close as they should or there is a way when they don't and we always be times when they won't. T his t hat you don't get stuck. There is nothing for frightening especially if you are not familiar with the system than being carried off to the next stop you don't know what is going on there. >> Right. I think that's what made me change my mind was some impo rt about that issue. >> Yeah. Imean, it's

-- yeah. E specially if you are new to a system, or you know that the next station doesn't have cross platform and the elevators might not work. There are a whole host of things that come into play. A nd you may , actually, make a conscious decision to go to certain stations because of other accessibility and they may not be the ones closest to where you want to be. S uddenly you are headed off to another station, and you didn't want to go there. S o -- >> That im pairment that would be a serious concern. >> Yes. >> So, with that in mind let me write it up. A nd I will give background information and that will be note number 8 I suspect to go along with this. I f we could, though, onthe subject of the notes, becaus e everyone sees that there

is note number 7 that's mentioned now these

-- these

-- I'm sorry let me go back over to the doorway width between cars. N ote number 7 refer toss the overlap of clear path between cars. Iapologize I was going to try to cite th e specific reference from the architectural guidelines, right now we say 32 inches clear, but there is no provision for any device overlap at any point. You know, any vertical dimension. A nd I believe in the architectural guidelines there is allowance fo r up to 4

- inch protrusion up to 34 inches. A nd so, that is something that it was -- there wasn't anything specific in rail before, it would be nice to add that in the specific. I don't know you know, do we use the D. O. T. guidance letter that came out a couple of years ago to lean on the architectural side, or should we go ahead and put something in there just to avoid confusion in the future. >> This is Bob Reuter. Question

-- >> You need to put it in there, because a lot of people designing cars aren't going to have copies of the ABA, ADA guideline handy. I t's not going to be that easy for them to refer to. >> That was my thinking Dennis, the more things that we can very clearly state for rail the better the chances arethat we won't have conflict and confusion down the path. >> This is Bob Reuter how often or ever would those devices be left in a position where they would be blind? I mean the lever type hand brake that you mentioned when you are do using it, it goes back into the recess. >> Well, in that case, Bob, I can give you an example where we have

-- the lever type hand brakes that we pushed the collision post out, you know, to get the clear path through the collision post and make that doorway bigger. A nd yet you know there are other devices that have to live in that area, and be respectful of the geometries of the operation of the hand brake. A nd that's

-- that's where that came into play. A nd it's not that it would stay deployed but the device itself without spreading the collision post ye t further apart, you know out toward the corners that the hand brake or some other device it might be another you know, railroad safety appliance that's more exterior issue would need

-- would have a chance of protruding into the pathway. B ut I just wante d to take the opportunity to establish that point. I t may have some affect even in things where there is a need for a railroad employ

-- Brad handle or something else that's well above the pathway of someone in a wheelchair. But if we have some definitio n, then it gives some

-- itgives everyone a target to work for and avoid. B ecause

right now there is nothing firm in the rail regs. >> Yeah, this is Dennis. Explain that those numbers from the architectural side refer to things like, when you talk about the width of a door you measure it whether it's 90 degrees from the face of the door to the opposite stop. But if you think about it, remember those panic bars on the long side or even, you know, a lever handle sticks out from the face of the door. And a lso the closer that might be up at the top protrudes into some of that space. T hose numbers those exceptions and building standards are to accommodate for those kinds of things. O therwise if you didn't do that you could never have a 32

- inch door you woul d always have to go to a 36

- inch door to get all of that stuff out of the way. There are things that peculiar to the train it's things like the actual door handle and the closer mechanism that might be in the way. >> Marsha Mazz: Dennis is this is Marsha Mazz I will add in the building standard when dealing with sliding doors the hardware is not permitted to protrude into the opening. >> Right. >> Okay. S o, I will write that up with more detail but Ithink at that should be include for clarity whether it 's 34 or

35, I use 34 because it's out there in the architectural regs already. A nd inside case of

-- like the lever type hand brakes that runs up against and actually pushes the pivot which is critical to the amount of force that you can apply to the han d brake you where that space makes a difference depending on the stature of the employee who is ratcheting the thing down. S o, it's all

-- it's all right there in the 34

- inch realm that seems to work. I f we want to push it higher then I would say yeah pu sh it a little higher we should have some definition there. >> So, if it's okay I will write it autopsy at 34. I f we need to change it we will change it. >> Okay. >> I lost you. H ello? >> No you are there. W here are we on the footnote what number a re you working on? >> Number 7 in the notes. D ennis? >> Is this on the matrix? >> It's the notes attached to the matrix. >> Right on the second page, right Blair? >> Yes. >> Thank you. >> Fourth page by the time you get to mine.>> Let me ask, raise an is sue. N umber 3

-- issue

number 3 talks about 32 by 59 that's because of adequate maneuvering space. I am not sure where the 59 came from if you look at the alcove provisions in the building standards and you look at the proposal in the bus reg that number is bigger. A nd it's

-- instead of setting a specific number it says that you have to add X number of inches to a length whenever you have it confined on three sides. A nd then the confined is defined how much. Atwo
- inch protrusion isn't probably going t o be a problem. B ut a 12

- inch will be a big deal. I am not sure if

-- I know the 59 comes from free I can't

-- PRIIA. A nd I think Linda last time a while back said that she thought that the 59 was to include the maneuvering space. I am not sure that 59 is the number that we want to stick with though. >> Yes, Dennis this is Gary. Imean, I participated on that. T hat was just a negotiated thing where we were trying to make it bigger and better than what it was. S o, if there

-- if the bus reg has a better formula that would tie that to those

-- to that alcove then I think you are right. >> And we could be bigger and better. >> All right. We just had weeks to try to bang something out we didn't want 30 by 48.>> We just copied the provision for alcoves fro m the

ABA, ADA for the bus thing it's essentially consistent with that. >> This is Marsha Mazz. I am going to, again, caution you not to assume that what was in the NPRM will be in the final rule. >> for the buses. >> for the buses. >> Somebody is saying that

-- nobody is saying. We are saying that the provision that's written in the current proposal works. >> I guess just read my lips okay? (LAUGHTER) >> (inaudible). >> This is Melissa Anderson. >> This is Marilyn from DREDF sometimes the larger er d imensions the state of the Carolina way

-- the state of the art in a way document now is the proposed ANSI standard. Which has a larger clear floor space as a building block, which is driving specs to be bigger. So, I don't think it's actually an Access B oard document yet. B ut I think we are trying to make new specifications consistent with that. B ecause historically improved specifications on the ADA side have tended to be adoptedinto the ANSI which is private consensus standard that

serves as the basi s -- which ends up serving as the basis for something which in turn serves as the basis for state codes. A nyway, and then what

-- what you know, when the ANSI takes the leap ahead and provides specification that's more accessible, then when the ADA, you k now, standard is updated it tends to harmonize with it. S o, the RVAAC I think is based on that. A nd the PRIIA it seems to DREDF is important because it's really negotiated in a rail context. >> That's

-- Marilyn, this is Gary. T hat last point is so impo rtant. I mean, we -- that was not a gimmick. We worked really, really hard to try and make it

-- make the cars more accessible and to create more clear space. T hat was negotiated. B ig time. >> And I

-- yeah. T hanks Gary. J ust to add a PS, I mean, I would hope that the RVAAC would shoot for consistency with at least PRIIA. >> What are you suggesting Marilyn? >> Just not that it be less anyway. >> Would you think

-- Marilyn this is Gary. L ike Dennis, I think, was trying to say why wouldn't we be consi stent with the bus rule at least the advanced notice. And which to me kind of made sense we did

-- when youthink about all of the negotiations that took place in a rail

environment, this thing was

-- it was not a gym me by any stretch Melissa Shurland wo rked hard to get

-- I think we had 5 things we changed this was one of them. >> Well, the bus

-- the bus rule

-- I don't remember when it was said it said actually. T he clear floor space then there is some other thing that is also for maneuvering or is it all built into the clear ground space? >> No, what it starts out with is the clear floor space, which is 30 by 48 then it says if you are confined on three sides up to

-- sides you have to add this to that number. >> That's right. A nd if you go by the Se infeld but Ed's the spoke person for the study the state of the art clear floor space study it's 34 by

-- >> Like 56 or something. >> 50 something like that. S o, but Ed's not on the call is he? >> A bus is only 54 foot long 200 inches wide >> Anyway we are not doing buses I want to give context for some of the numbers, some of the numbers. With

-- with you know, sort of a bias towards PRIIA, assuming that we are going to stick with 32. I would hope that

-- well Ed will be around at some point at least on the full committee and he can speak to the reasons for the 34.>> Marilyn if I could

-- this is Gary. I f I could

follow

- up on your comment. T he one thing that I do like about the actual number is if there is anything that I have seen get goofed up in th e rail environment, it's when you list something like, you know, can't be less than this, and if you do these other things, it has to get bigger and almost never does it get bigger. I t kind of from that perspective, I mean, 32 by 59 perfect or not you can measure it. Regardless of three sides or open space. A nd often these spaces are often a side like you have seen when you have helped me. You go down the aisle and accessible space is maybe to the right, and you know, the distance to the side wall to th e aisle width is the width of the space. A nd you are constrained with

-- but the length of it can be much more gracious. A nd that's where I think the 59 came from. Because people have back packs and luggage and stuff like that. B ecause it's inner

- city or whatever type of vehicle, you would want to keep your stuff near you, and the only way you would be able to do that is have you maybe a backpack and maybe something else that's where the 59 kind of came from. >> I am thinking here the only time I rode i n the diner it was like the last table and there was a bulk head behind you, you fit it behind the bulk head and table and you hadto get into that space. >> Right. I know the car. A nd there is no space really to maneuver to get into it. T his would, you know, this would definitely impact that to where you may have to go to like gain access to a second inboard table. B ecause that is the only way that you would get the 59

- inch length which would give you a space like Dennis was saying to cue yourself up a nd get into the space properly. >> I actually had to transfer into a seat opposite on the other side of the island just push my chair back in that hole. It was that tight. A nd I have a very small chair. >> Well, this is Dennis, I

-- I mean one of the iss ues was I really appreciate the fact that this was a negotiation and PRIIA is

-- is you know was hard fought in many areas. I was simply thinking that we should maybe move to bigger and see whether PRIIA can accommodate that or the new cars or whatever. I guess my question is: Iknow it's easier if you just put a number in there. I t's easier and you write absolutely

-- and you are right you are absolutely right if you do that you get more compliance. I am just reluctant to say we shouldn't even try to see whether we can get it any better than that. B ut I am not sure how you frame that. You can't

-- you can't frame a regulation that says, we shall do this, and you should do that. B ecausethat is

-- that doesn't work in regulations. >> This is Bob Reuter again maybe we should put something like 34 by 62 and see what we get back from the comments on the NPRM. >> Well, this is Blair. I thought I got back online again my apologies I feel like I am in the middle of nowhere

-- >> We got it pretty much all d one Blair. (LAUGHTER) >> I am 18 miles I am in one of the fastest growing areas in the country, and you would think I was in the desert somewhere. >> They want to build a light rail and commuter rail down here. >> Yes, I would say hurry up. (LAUGHT ER) >> if I could, this is Gary if I could comment back to what Dennis said. D ennis I completely support you. I think that is what Marilyn was alluding to as well on the 34 width. T hat's what Ed's data said. I am with Marilyn I don't really remember

-- I thought it was less than 59 his data showed. B ut there is the place where at least you have data I do agree if you pick a number why don't you pick pun that you think is better. Idon't think 32 is the per number by

-- perfect number by any stretch th at's what wecould negotiate

-- >> Remember, all of this stuff is tied together because you could say 34, I mean if you wanted to talk about the issue that that provides more maneuvering room that's okay. B ut, remember, we are talking about aisle width an d doorways whatever. We have to make sure that we

-- that we don't essentially get somebody

-- this is what the problem is something like defining the standard wheelchair the common wheelchair was. I s that it was

-- you could have a common wheelchair that wouldn't fit in the door. But

-- >> (inaudible) >> The doorway for accessible building I have a friend

-- I had a friend who had a 36

- inch wide wheelchair she could get in my place because I had 36

- inch wide doors. S he couldn't get into places that were considered accessible. >> This is Bob Reuter wasn't this dimension just for alcoves though? >> No, it's

-- well, it is written as alcoves actually yes. It's written as three sides. O n rail car you are always going to have three sides just about right? >> Not always. I have seen places where the dining room you come in from the, you know, the vestibule areaand you pull straight into a table. S o, you are not
-- >> the back wall is your end wall. T he side wall is your second wall. A nd then the obstruction in front is the third wall. S o it will function like an alcove is what I mean. >> Yeah but it would be bigger than the 34 by 62 or whatever dimension is. J ust by the nature of its design. >> This is Blair. T he thing that

-- that might help, you know, from the railroad side is when we are talking about maneuvering and we have the 6

- inch overlap at I think we projected at 12 inches we moved it up. T hat's a key thing that when we start getting into some of these big cubic areas, I think that's where you are going to get the most push back from the railroads because the width across the vehicle. T he 32, the 30, 32, and 34 in most situations is less of an issue because passengers are accommodated typically in seats that are as much as 46 or 50 inches wi de so that space is sort of you know cordoned off for passengers having it 32 or 34 probably isn't the end of the earth. B ut when you start extending out the length of the car then you quickly start impacting revenue space. And that's where you are going to get most of the push back. B ecause adding

-- adding inches unless it's provisions for overlap, say parted of your maneuvering inches are allowed under a table we still have a fixed, pure,clear cubic space as well, then it, you know, it makes it a

little bit easier to push through. >> I think a certain amount of overlap is almost given here. >> Well it is and it isn't. >> We have to define it. >> Yeah, maybe that

-- that's why I am saying if we are looking

-- what I put in there was 32 by 54/32 by 59 i f it's counted on all three sides, if there is some caveat in there that allow for some overlap that's reasonable then let's utilize maybe cantilever tables and those sort of things. But, again, at the end of the day we truly should expand the absolute cl ear cubic space with no encumbrances I think that's important. B ut I think you need to leave

-- you need to leave the authority some

-- some leeway through hopefully or we will get far more push back. Ihave taken numbers from PRIIA and applied them to t he Acela is pure ways what I get back out is we run 20 train sets we own 20 train sets we need 21 train sets plus some to have the same number of seats that we run today. A nd then that becomes a very serious conversation. B ut it doesn't hurt to put the b igger numbers out there. I t's like buying a car. You know, you go for

-- you throw some numbers out and see what happens.>> Well folding seats are always an option. >> They are. >> They are not always in the accessible space. We have that issue today. And that's not generally a good idea.>> Well, and Gary, I think it's important from my opinion that the folding seat is never the transfer seat. Maybe the folding seat is the seat that is there when there is no one there who needs the space and they can sit there. To me, that's where a lot of people get balled up on, on these issues they think the put down seat is also the seat you transfer into. I n the inner

- city world I argue, no, that's the seat that someone sits in when there is no one there using a wheelchair and there is none of the other seats available. I t becomes the sort of the last resort. N ot the place that we insist someone who wants to transfer goes to. That's

-- that's maybe something that we should clarify in our -- in our recommendat ion as well. >> But the issue I was trying to get at Blair was the issue we have in California where we have people with wheeled mobility devices that can't get on a com sys because all of the spaces are taken and that's because all of the jump seats are o ccupied. >> That's what conductors are for.>> Someone can sit there saying I have a need for the

seat you can't force them legally to move. T here has to be some space that's sacred space. C learly the transfer seats people can sit in it our conductors are I think very good that they will go over and say I have a person with a disability, they have

-- they have a reservation for this seat, and so if you have

-- if your ticketed or the accessible transfer seat I have had them show my ticket to someone sitting there, and in all but one case in about five years I have had people always move except one time. A nd you know, so they do well with that. Aclear space is a much more difficult thing. Because as you start to put luggage there, or you know, jump seats and things like that, it's

-- they are often in an area that's larger, because it's clear space. A nd people like that. S o they are like oh, I will sit in the jump seat I don't have to sit so close to somebody else. S omebody comes in that has to have it and there is no guarantee they are going to get up and leave. >> It's accessible stall in the restroom everybody uses it. >> That's a really good analogy. I t is. I mean, I think there is some places where you can do that. Iam just suggesting that the m ore you try and double use the space, the more problems that we push on the community ofpeople with disabilities. >> Amtrak has the ability of having reservations. >> You don't have a reserved seat the only person with a reserved seat choose the transfer seat accessible space for the stowable space and the transfer seat. >> But they have the reservation for the space. >> They would have to for a space on the train, you are correct. B ut nobody on the train beyond that has an actual ticket tore a specific seat. >> That's correct. Yeah. >> And that's what

-- that's what hurts us. >> The exception to that Gary would be typically on long distance trains the car attendants will at train side assign people. B ecause keeping up with where

-- because of the nature of long distance travel, they have to keep up very closely where every one is so they make sure they get off the train in the middle of the night. >> Blair raises an excellent point on long distance. Long distance inner

- city is completely different than on the corridor. A nywhere you have a corridor like the Wolverine in Michigan or the new high speed line from Chicago to St. Louis or out in California or northeast it's run like commuter rail or heavy rail. W here the long distance stuff like Blair said they will have maybe one or two cars you can get into.Like when I got on the train to Savannah I couldn't get on

anything but my sleeper car or a coach car that they wanted me in so that they know where I was getting off. >> Right. T hat's true of Gary i t's important to note it's true of everyone on the train >> That's true it wasn't just me. I didn't realize it until I had gone on the trip I didn't realize that I thought

-- wait a minute all cars are accessible. You can go anywhere that you want. Well , you can. I suppose I could have made a sting and went to the third car whatever it was. B ut the crew z are like this is my car for Savannah. >> The crews can be pretty persnickety about that. >> It does raise the issue. T he only thing I am trying to raise when you multi purpose accessible space you are really asking for problems >> Getting on a corridor train and trying to get everybody to move the luggage is always in the accessible spot. >> It's a nightmare it's really, really tough. M any times our high

- speed train and regional trains are just full. If you are online going, you know you might be going from Philadelphia to New York. I t's what an hour and 15 minutes hour and 30 on the Acela two hours regional. I t could take you 30 minutes to get enough stuff moved toget into the space. >> Um

- hmm. >> (inaudible) >> It's going to be harder. >> This is Blair (inaudible) are the frustrating operational issues that obviously like Chris always said we can only control what is in the car. A nd one way of influencing the operation is by the vehicle. B ut I think the other reality is the operational side has to tighten up there act you know, the Amtrak example is we have a baggage policy that should prevent the quality of bags that become an issue and end up stacked up where you are supposed to be able to access with the wheelchair. I f we enforce all of those policies it probably wouldn't be an issue on most trains >> Well maybe that's something else that needs to be put a sign wheelchairs only or no bagg age here. >> I think that's

-- that is certainly you know, under the communication flag of what we are doing, we need to add stronger language and mandate what the language is. So, people can't

-- there is no argument. T hat's what that space is for. A nd that give the conductors quite honestly some of the conductors I feel sorry for them they are try to go follow the rules and do the right thing you havebelligerent passengers who will do what they please just

because. T he more teeth that we can give the m, and I would say go so far as to cite the regulation, if, for example, the FRA requires us to put a sticker on the car, and on all of the windows that proclaim that the windows are FRA type II windows. A nd it has to, by rule, it has to be on the car and on the windows. S o, why not you know, have a placard that says what we want it to say. A nd cite the federal regulation that covers it. A nd then the conductors can point to that no you can't put your bags there. I f we can

-- >> Player if I could say on e last thing about the clear space. I f you remember, the single level long distance cars that we have been working on the mockups that we saw we had a flit down seat in the clear space and in the dining car and we took it out. >> Yep. >> and it should have been taken out. A nd that's all I am saying. Iam saying that I agree with you on everything else I am just saying that flip down seats are very problematic. W hen I looked at the Talgo car the flip down seat, when I talked to the crews if somebody is s itting there those trains are small trains they don't have a lot of revenue seats to start with, if you come in and you are in anoccupied wheeled mobility device that seat is occupied,

there is just not enough space for you. >> Right. >> Talgo cars in and of themselves are a problem. At least used in the cascade service. >> Idea, we want you to get into the

-- we won't get into the Talgos. H ey Gary just a note on the final solution on the diner. We took the whole first table and half of the next booth o ut. >> I know I saw (inaudible). >> Well every diner I have been in that's where they store silver ware table ware I have never get them to move it. >> Well, as I said about some of our dining car folks if we took out every table and put in storage except for last two one of those tables they would use it for doing their paper work. T hat's neither here nor there. >> This is Melissa Anderson I just I am poking you with a sharp stick reminding you how much stuff you have to do you have about 30 minutes. >> A ll right. Yes we are according to my clock even tighter than that. S o, okay. W hat number do we want to put in as the lightning rod for the clear space? >> I would suggest 34 by 62 and see what kind oflightning hits it. H ey if nobody comments on it, I mean

what the heck. We got a winner.

(LAUGHTER) >> Okay. Well, I mean I will write it up like that. 3 4 by 62. O kay. >> Question on that, this is Don Mebius with LDK is that also a part of the clear space for an ADA toilet? >> Hum? I nside of a

-- restrooms have their own regulations. >> Well they do, now

-- and I would like to say this, when we start looking at going back to platform clear space on lifts for cars, and if we are looking at vertical movement between levels, what is the

-- what is the impact

-- honestly they are different functions but what is the impact of this? T hat's one of the places where the lower number, the 32, 34, whatever becomes a bigger issue. >> This is maneuvering space in an enclosed area alcove. >> Okay. A ll right. >> Say the space on the left would tell you who could get on your train and you want to stop people to not
-- they get a big chair on the train that can't move. S o the lift platform all of that stuff would essentially say if yourchair is bigger than this, I am sorry but you have to find

another way. J ust like in the building, if you got a 36

- inch wide wheelchair you can't get in an accessible door. >> Right. >> That's just life. >> All right. Well look, I will write that up as 34 by 62. M y intention is to revise the matrix and circulate it for comment if that's okay. S o we can move ahead and try to work through to the end of it real quick. What about the overlap of clear space? Ihave it written in as 6 inches and 12 inches which is 3 inches more than it is now? >> Is that the 12 inches high or the 6 inches I think? >> the overlap the 6 inches is the same. B ut >> (inaudible) >> But the (inaudible) is clear vertically instead of 9 inches clear >> 6 inches is the vertical of the length can it be accommodated under an object if you have at least 12 inches of vertical clearance. >> That's been the problem lately, a lot of wheelchairs are sitting higher and

-- >> That's why we changed it to 12. I t's not 9 in all of the current regulations. A s a result of what Ed said andsome other folks on a couple of talks back we decided to

make it 12. F rank I think was concerned 12 might be pushing it and it might be better at 11. Iam inclined to say try 12 and see what happens. B ut, yeah, the 9 inches is not good eno ugh. >> 9 is no way. >> This is Frank, yeah, I mean no I am listening here and we are going 34 by 62 we are going from 9 to 12. I think the 12 inches is really pushing the envelope of the seating

-- room for seats if you want to try to use the bottom of t hat. S o, you really are increasing the space pretty dramatically when you keep adding all of these numbers up. Iknow that you want to put it out there and see what people come back with but the question I want to ask is: W here is the justification for 34 by 62? I mean you could argue that 40 by 80 is even better but why 34 by 62? >> Because it's based on the research that Ed Seinfeld did. T hose are hard numbers. T hat's all. >> How many

-- I intend to be at the public transit expo all of the seat manu facturers have seats displayed there. S o I will certainly measure the under side of seats while I am there. >> This is Blair. Yeah, the thing that gets most critical with the seats is the under frames and the cushions andthings like that. B ecause you a re also running up against if

you take the compressed surface of the seat you know somewhere in there, there has to be a frame. A nd depending on whether the seat is a simple fix commuter type seat or more complex long distance type seat the amount of spac e becomes more critical. A nd obviously again ins are ins on the

-- inches are inches on the train any inch that doesn't have an overlap condition

-- more clear floor space which impacts the revenue seating space on the train again. I t all cascades. And t hose are the kinds of things that we are going to get back from the industry. I know it will come back from Amtrak they will probably make me do the work.

(LAUGHTER) >> I mean, I think Frank I understand, we share a common struggle in our railroad wor lds, but I think what we have to do is look at

-- because I can honestly say I haven't gone back and look at what 12 inches does on different seat times. I know on the seats we have today it's a little prohibitive but we are looking at trying to get away from some of these big heavy clunky frames. Yet the seats have their own crashworthiness criteria that they must meet driven but another set of standards. S omewhere in there those things have to

-- to live with one another>> I imagine American standard in all of the other

folks that make the fancy rail seats and they are (inaudible) I imagine if you (inaudible). >> Yeah any information that you can glean would be awesome. >> Are you not coming? >> To the after show? >> Right. N o I am going to probably b e too busy doing stuff on this.

(LAUGHTER) >> Well, I certainly will be at the after show I will have my camera and tape measure. >> Okay. Let's see the number of mobility aid spaces, I think inner

- city was the only one that always has just one so I p lugged in two. >> This is Uwe Rutenberg, can I just

-- before we go to the next item there, I have a question regarding the wheelchair spaces since we have talked about this at length now.The issue that has come up with many operators is the issue of whee lchair securement on the inter

- city trains. Now, most countries in the world do not use securement systems in their inner

- city trains >> Nor do the U.S.>> We don't use any rail vehicle there is no wheelchair

securement. >> In Canada there are pre traito rs one is a rail one is Rocky Mountaineer, which is a tourism train on the west coast, and there is go train in Toronto like a commuter train. >> They never tied me down when I was Ride N Go. >> I think the issue came up under normal operating conditions , and I think I talked with very shortly on this, that the operating environment is low G. You know, very small forces due to large masses. The problem is when we have a crash, a collision derailment role offer, et cetera. T he forces can be much higher. And what can happen then if the wheelchair is not secured it can become a project tile to injury other people. >> Roll over. >> The question is

-- >> All of the other luggage and all of the other stuff (inaudible) >> Should we tie them down or not? >> No. >> No. >> I just want to bring it up and should this be included in your matrix or not?>> No. >> The only people that I know in the United States that absolutely mandate tie down have the lowest speeds that New Orleans. >> I have never seen anything in t his country for securement. >> New Orleans is almost anal about it they are absolutely you don't move the car without being tied down. >> Well, what is, prior to ADA coming into effect, I know Amtrak had the old single wheel clamps that you back into and t hey latch you hit a lever and you got out of it. M y understanding was that, that only works on the wheels that are open spoke arrangement it doesn't work on scooters or whole litany of vehicles. T here was activity around making common attachment points, the industry the wheelchair manufacturers at the time I understand put up a real fuss about that. T he

-- there is

-- I don't think the community is ever going to sign up for any kind of securement. >> The manual wheelchair user every ounce on the chair is important. You don't want anymore extra weight on there than you have to. >> You don't want to be tied down on something people are trying to get off of and you are trying to untie yourself.>> That's true too. >> The real issue is there is no universal securement. It doesn't matter what you design there are going to be a whole bunch of chairs that you can't secure by it. S econdly maybe all of the test of wheelchair securement the wheelchair is the weakest link the belt with hang on the chair but the wh ack disintegrates. I t stays attach to the belt the rest of the chair is flying all over the area. A ll bets are off in a collision or derailment. T here is no securement device made that's going to protect you for that. T he idea that you providing this for that emergency or rare situation people are kidding themselves if they think that that really has some meaning. >> I haven't seen any wheelchair manufacturer nowadays that doesn't have a caveat in the owner's manual that says not intended adds a (inaudi ble) in a wheeled motor vehicle. >> That's the legal way of avoiding liability. B ut if my device disintegrated I would go after them anyway.

(LAUGHTER) >> The test that was done years ago with the old single clamps was yeah they loaded a wheelchair up clamped it down and accelerated it, and what you ended up with was a wheel crumbled up wheel the rest of the devicewas gone. S o, that was the thinking well it doesn't

-- it

doesn't do anything for you in most situations. S o, especially the more severe. >> No one has ever seen the video would never get on a vehicle again. >> In the corporate world, the

-- the burden would be on the manufacturers and the providers to get their heads together and make something that would create a safety situation that wou ld be universe Sal not just a train but to buses and people (inaudible) and things like that. B ut the tragedy is I don't think we can affect that here. >> The only thing that seems to work universally and works well is the one thing that nobody will use t hat's riding backwards. >> Right. >> Nobody

-- I know nobody that will is willing to ride backwards across the country or pretty much anywhere else. I n fact when I get a car out of the country or something that has those I am usually facing forward with my footrest and forehead against the pad. >> I would

-- I would

-- so, if we can go ahead and try to move introduce through the matrix in the last several minutes we have got here. I s there an issue over the number of mobility aids seating locations? Ag ain I havethem as two that I cascaded down. P RIIA abdicated two.

And then that's for people who wish to stay in the wheelchairs, correct? >> Right. >> Those two for each. >> Right. >> Two each right? >> Two for each vehicle? F or each car >> Two for eac h car. Ihave to doublecheck I thought we -- I don't remember if that was one transfer space and one clear space for occupied. >> I wasn't sure either Gary but the way I read it, it implied two of each. A nd again, that's what I applied to the

-- see what the effect PRIIA was on existing train like Acela. A nd that's

-- >> If you look at that spec then Blair did you see did we address two transfer seats and two occupied spaces in each car? >> Transfer seats are not a problem all you need is the armrest bas ically to be able

-- >> You need a similar space for the unoccupied device. >> So it can't be the same as the occupied space. S o it is quite an impact, actually.>> Yep. I t is. Imean I will

-- when I take the

information from the matrix and apply it to vehicles and share that back we can see it. >> Okay. >> And you know if we want to

-- if we want to change something we can. B ut I thought, you know, for the moment let's leave it at two. I will go back and clarify what free I can't

-- what PRIIA says t o make sure. >> One plus one with one always flip up seat or always transfer seat. O ne always wheelchair seat and one convertible space whether it's a flip up seat or something. >> Right. Yeah. I am not sure
-- I will have to go back and look at that. If it's okay now leave it at two I will get detail back on that for everyone. A ll the handrails and stanchions personally we say stay at inch and quarter inch and a half I see there was no before about architectural going up to two inches. Two inches for a lot of situations I think all of those ergonomically can begin to go the other way for something that you are grabbing. >> For a small person two inches is too big. >> Yeah. >> So the one and a quarter one and a half is perfect >> Yes, that's correct. Bigger is not necessarily better in that dimension.>> Right. You want to be able

-- the issue is I will

use the quick example, Melrose safety appliances, like handrails are typically like 5/8 of an inch they have been that way forever. B ut those are the ones that the railroad workers with gloved hands are using on the outside of trains. T hat dimension is very small for someone to grip in a more normal situation. >> That would be the one (inaudible) >> There is an exception. >> Dennis? >> In the current regulation there is an exception for those handrails which are basically required by FRA. T hey don't have to comply with that handrail spec. >> I was just making the point that there is reasons why the smaller ones would not work and the bigger ones -- pa rt of the issue is being able to grip. A nd people can't necessarily grip the smaller ones. T hey can't get their hands far enough around the bigger ones to have a safe grip. Again, my thinking was we stay at inch and a quarter to inch and a half. >> The only thing I can think of where it would be issue might be on the folding step well on the track. T he one that is attached to the bottom of the track. >> Right. Well that

-- that comes

-- that one is onnewer cars bob we have made that a minimum of an in ch

and a quarter or inch and a half. B ecause that brakes the plane between the outside where it's sort of the FRA safety appliance world versus passenger access. And so we treat that as inside passenger access now. So it has to comply with ADA. T hat's

- - >> (inaudible). >> Okay. C learance is inch and a half anybody see a need to change that >> That's critical for

-- they don't grab it they stuff their fist down in there. >> I would make it any smaller to for any reason >> No bigger either. >> Okay. >> B lair, this is Marilyn from DREDF are you talking about the distance between the grab bar and the wall? >> Yes. T he clear (inaudible) >> I want to encourage you to put it

-- you might want to call it what

-- you know, clearance between X and Y. Imean the re is any number of reasons. Imean, can your arm -- there is any number of reasons that the staff could expound. Inever heard something called that before. I think we may have made it up. >> In fact, your PRIIA regulations say inch and a halfminimum, I think it should be taken out. I t should be inch

and a half normal I suspect. F or inch and a half, inch and 3/4. >> You know what I will do, I will write it up so it's very clear it's measured from the surface of the railing not from the center line. So there is no

-- there is no confusion about that. >> Yeah. T hat's good. A nd it shouldn't make sure it doesn't say minimum because you know those ones with four or five or 6 inches a lot of people with poor hand control will not be able to hang on. >> S ay that again Bob? >> People with poor hand control. >> Right. >> Cannot hang on. T hey actually rest their wrist against the back wall. >> Okay. S o you are saying having it too big could be a problem as well? >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. You make a very good point there. O kay. Because it actually falls between the railing and the wall if it was too far. >> A number of people I have known had the problem and gotten their hand stuck between the railing and thewall. >> Okay. >> Lean on their arms instead of t heir hands. >> Okay. >> This is Andre. We have stairway banisters they have to meet this requirement, but there is no wall necessarily next to them. We just to have be careful the way this requirement is written. >> If there is no wall behind it there is nothing you could do. >> That's right that's why the rules should be written properly. >> When against the wall or when against the surface. >> There is two

-- this is Marilyn. I think a handrail such as on a stair or a ramp from the wall might be different than a grab bar in the restroom. I mean I just

-- yeah. Staff or Dennis or someone could comment perhaps. >> We aren't addressing grab bars in restrooms in this committee. >> Marsha Mazz: But I think Marilyn's point this is Marsha is what the way they are used are different and therefore they have different characteristics in the building standard. I n the building standard handrails have a oneand a half inch minimum requirement whereas grab bars

are not quite the same. >> These are handrails I would like the knuckle clearance to be linked back to handrail stanchions from the wall or something like that. >> Okay. >> and then

-- and then I

-- yeah. A nd then just make sure it's consistent with what the staff thinks it should be as well as us who are -- >> Maybe the appendix there needs to be a little elaboration this is what a grab bar is this is what a handrail is. >> Okay. >> You guys have 5 minutes. >> Marsha: T his document is not likely to have the same kind of appendix as others because of cha nges in the federal register rules. >> That's right I forgot about that yet >> (inaudible) one question on that that handrail we are talking about would it also include the one when you board the train that you would hold on to those handrails >> That woul d be handrails. >> Because those are often now increasingly used by FRA as a requirement for safety appliance to board thetrain. W hich requires a two and a half inch clearance >> Well they are handrails not grab bars. >> Right. T hat's the question I am saying are these handrails or grab bars >> I think we have to define them. >> Yeah, I will

-- whale do I will go back and look at AFTA and FRA, AFTA has taken FRA regs and done a very good job of illustrating what the FRA has been trying to take us understand for a hundred years. A nd so, that's the true picture which helps. Iwill look at that and see, again, when you brake that between the outside and safety appliances and inside and passenger circulation and accessibility, maybe we need to help define t hat break so it's clear. Again, that just means that going forward that when a car rail or car owner writes specs and works on things it leaves less for argument by different regulating agencies. I f I could, let's see, the fair box guard

-- fare box guard it looks like the only place that had application was -- was on the light rail I really didn't do much research on that to try to add it to anything else. B ut that seems to be appropriate for services that are treated like a bus where you come on and yo u pay your fare when you go. >> Yeah, fare box have to be regulated to a point. I mean, even commuter
-- not commuter rail but subwaycars are using boxes

-- Philadelphia and Cleveland are

using fare boxes at night. >> I will

-- what I can add then I will add back where they are used regardless of the mode. >> Right. W hen used. >> Okay. S o, (inaudible). >> All right. ( inaudible). >> Maneuverability near doors? T here was

-- you can look at notes, let's see. >> That is

-- that has more than one number. I mean there is different kinds of

-- if you are on the strike side

-- there is

-- I am not sure how to boil that down so much. Of course I am not looking at your end notes you may do that. >> Yeah, I think the notes are critical because what we discussed last time, for example, will give us some way -- you know it's an open car pretty much it has stanchions and things and eventually maybe separation panels. B ut the thing across the width of the subway you are going to have

-- it's going to be the width o f the doors all the way across. You have a built in maneuverability. What I tried to do is break it up into cars with vestibules that have designed hard spaces versus cars that are more open. A nd that's what the note 5 with A, B, and C wastrying to add ress. Idon't think that we have got time. We

are right up against the wall for the end of the call. B ut if I could ask people look at note 5. S end me your thoughts on that. Iwill wrap them back into

-- into this as best I can. B ut, again, I thought to Marilyn's point that can't be just one number because of all of the different arrangements next to the doors on the different modes. >> And some of them

-- remember, most of those in fact all of them in the building that refer to maneuvering clearance in doors refer to manual doors. S o, if the door is automatic when the pushbutton or with a sense sore, none of those things apply. >> Right. T he rail doors are power doors. >> It has to be in the right place and meet the controls and operating mechanisms standards for placement. B ut those

-- you don't need maneuvering clearance like you do for a swing door if there is a door that parts or whatever most train, they are power operated and open when you approach. >> Blair, you can make changes on your matri x and you guys can pass this around before the

-- before the in person meeting in September to come up with some final numbers. B ut we need to close out our meeting today. >> Blair, maybe you and I ought to get together on themonorail and we will can tal k privately >> Sure that would be fine Bob. >> We need to cover personal rapid transit too >> That's what I was thinking ALRT, CRT guide ways monorail tramways all of those little other oddballs. >> Personal rapid transit. >> Right. (LAUGHTER) >> Jet p acks okay. >> Hey there we go I want one of those. >> Suddenly our vision of Wyle E. Coyote. >> and animals coming from the sky. (LAUGHTER) >> Yep, yep. O kay. A ll right. B ear with me just a jiffy I am literally sitting in a car, I drove to where the phone service was better. C razy.

(LAUGHTER) >> Let's see. Well, for September it looks like what we are going to be up against is giving a status of where we are. W hat I will do is update the matrix according to what we have today, and if I can if it's all right with the folks at the Access Board I will circulate it by E

- mail for any comments if there are things we are solid on is it appropriate for us to present those as, and that's ourrecommendation at the September meeting Melissa? >> I would say that it should be put up for discussion maybe by the full committee. I mean get input from them. I don't know that

-- until you run some of these things through the car plans and work with the other committees also, I don't know that you we are really ready to make solid recommendations to the committee again. >> Okay. >> For the matrix up and give everybody a chance to look at the matrix I think that's excellent >> Here is what I will do, I have lined up a recruit at Amtrak to help me come up with base d on existing vehicles could come up with generic floor plans for modes that are not you know the property of any particular agency or manufacturer right now. A nd apply this information from the matrix to that. B efore I do that I will update the matrix a nd try to get it out to everyone by Wednesday of next week. >> If there is a general consensus that's okay based on the discussion today I will apply to all of the vehicles. A nd then get that back out to everyone. S o we can be in a position to either revise totally revise if necessary or have it as a more formal discussion at the September meeting. >> Melissa: S ounds good thank you. T hank youeverybody today for being with us today. A nd we will see

everybody in person September 11 and 12. >> The only assignment that I have right now is for Bob Reuter to measure and photograph all of the seats at the

-- (LAUGHTER) >> Yes, but that's not until October. >> Oh, okay. Well, good. >> I will be sure to tell you I will do it in October. >> Okay. I t does work out well right now we are looking at different seat types at Amtrak so we are by default going to need information as well. Iwill hopefully with share that. >> Yes, vehicles I will measure some but the show where you get to talk to the manufacturers and see what they can and are producing. >> Thank you everybody. >> Check on the vehicles. T hank you. >> Thank you. >> Operator thank you for all your help today please disconnect all lines. ( End of meeting)