1 

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1 Environmental Protection Agency 

2 

3 

4 

5 Proposed Revisions to Health and Environmental 

6 Protection Standards for Uranium and Thorium 

7 Mill Tailings, 40 CFR Part 192 

8 

9 

10 1:05 p.m. to 2:46 p.m. 

11 and 

12 6:09 p.m. to 6:52 p.m. 

13 Tuesday, April 14, 2015 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 Embassy Suites Corpus Christi 

20 Padre Room 

21 4337 South Padre Island Drive 

22 Corpus Christi, TX 98411 
2 

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1 EPA PANEL: 

2 GEORGE BROZOWSKI, Panel Chair, EPA Regional 

3 Health Physicist, Region 6, Dallas, Texas 

4 INGRID ROSENCRANTZ, EPA Office of Radiation and 

5 Indoor Air, Washington, D.C. 

6 TOM PEAKE, EPA Office of Radiation and Indoor 

7 Air, Washington, D.C. 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
3 

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1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 

2 C O N T E N T S 

3 PAGE 

4 INTRODUCTION - GEORGE BROZOWSKI 6 

5 INGRID ROSENCRANTZ 10 

6 SAM FUGATE, Mayor, Kingsville, TX 13 

7 CHARLES MAGUIRE, Director of Radioactive 15 

8 Materials Division, Texas Commission on 

9 Environmental Quality 

10 DALE KOHLER, Texas Commission on 18 

11 Environmental Quality and Groundwater 

12 Protection Council 

13 ART DOHMANN, Goliad County Groundwater 22 

14 Conservation District Board of Directors 

15 BRUCE DARLING, Geochemist 25 

16 GEORGE BOKORNEY, Signal Equities, LLC 32 

17 CHARLES SALSMAN, Signal Equities, LLC 34 

18 CHES BLEVINS, Executive Director, Texas 35 

19 Mining and Reclamation 

20 DANE McCOIG, Vice-President, Uranium 40 

21 Resources, Inc. 

22 
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1 C O N T E N T S (continued) 

2 PAGE 

3 MINA WILLIAMS, Coastal Bend Group, Sierra 47 

4 Club 

5 VENICE SCHEURICH, Coastal Bend Group, 49 

6 Sierra Club 

7 MARK WALSH, Member, South Texas Opposes 52 

8 Pollution 

9 CRAIG WALL, Uranium Energy Corporation 54 

10 TROUPE BREWER, Texas Mining and Reclamation 58 

11 Association's Uranium Committee 

12 CHARLES RAGLAND, Duval County Property 61 

13 Owner 

14 BEN ESHLEMAN, Jim Hogg County Property 63 

15 Owner 

16 PETER LUTHIGER, Vice-President, Mestena 67 

17 Uranium 

18 HARRY ANTHONY, Uranium Energy Corporation 73 

19 and Uranium Producers of America 

20 MICHAEL MAXSON, Appearing as an individual, 77 

21 Employed as Operations Manager, Mestena 

22 Uranium 
5 

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1 C O N T E N T S (continued) 

2 PAGE 

3 MARK PELIZZA, Independent Consultant 80 

4 JAY MASTERSON, Background in Policy 85 

5 Development 

6 

7 E V E N I N G S E S S I O N 

8 DICK MESSBARGER, Lives near Kingsville 99 

9 Dome Mine 

10 TERESA CARRILLO, Resident of Duval County 104 

11 RAULIE IRWIN, President, Goliad County 107 

12 Groundwater Conservation District 

13 PAT CALHOUN, Goliad County Judge 109 

14 PETER LUTHIGER, Vice-President, Mestena 115 

15 Uranium 

16 RAULIE IRWIN, President, Goliad County 119 

17 Groundwater Conservation District 

18 CARROLL NORRELL, Interested Citizen 123 

19 VENICE SCHEURICH, Coastal Bend Group, 124 

20 Polish Sierra Club 

21 

22 
6 

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

2 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 

3 MR. BROZOWSKI: Good afternoon, everyone. 

4 My name is George Brozowski. I'm the Regional 

5 Health Physicist from Region 6, Environmental 

6 Protection Agency, located up in Dallas. 

7 First things first. Thank you very much 

8 for coming this afternoon knowing what the 

9 weather was today and what we all had to go 

10 through. And I've heard some of your horror 

11 stories, and, you know, thank you again for 

12 coming here. 

13 I will be presiding over the hearing 

14 today. And joining me at the table this 

15 afternoon here, to my left here is Ingrid 

16 Rosencrantz and Tom Peake from the Office of 

17 Radiation and Indoor Air from our Headquarters in 

18 Washington. 

19 Just a couple of little housekeeping tips 

20 here. If you need bathrooms, men's bathrooms are 

21 all the way down towards the right; women's 

22 bathrooms are all the way down towards the left. 

23 And in case of an emergency, we will not use the 
7 

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1 elevator, but we will either evacuate down to the 

2 first floor through the stairs towards the right 

3 or towards the left, go out towards the front 

4 door. Okay? 

5 Any questions with -- regarding to that? 

6 (No response.) 

7 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Having said that, 

8 this hearing is now in session. 

9 We are here today to listen and to 

10 receive your comments on EPA's Proposed Revisions 

11 to Health and Environmental Protection Standards 

12 for Uranium and Thorium Mill Tailing, also known 

13 as 40 CFR Part 192. 

14 EPA is proposing to revise this rule by 

15 adding an additional Subpart F that to explicitly 

16 address groundwater protection at uranium in-situ 

17 recovery operations. EPA announced this proposed 

18 rule in the Federal Register on January the 26th, 

19 2015. The comment period started on January the 

20 26th of 2015; and it was originally supposed to 

21 end on April the 27th of 2015 but will be 

22 extended to May 27th, 2015. And there will be an 

23 upcoming Federal Register notice. 
8 

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1 In a moment Ingrid will explain in more 

2 detail what was proposed in the notice, but 

3 before I turn it over to Ingrid, let me explain a 

4 bit on how today's hearing will work. 

5 There will be two sessions. One is we're 

6 having right now from 1:00 o'clock to 4:00 

7 o'clock and one this evening from 6:00 p.m. till 

8 9:00 here in the Padre Room. 

9 Please be sure if you have not checked 

10 into the registration desk at the back of the 

11 room -- even if you're not planning to talk -- to 

12 speak today. Excuse me. 

13 I will call the scheduled speakers to the 

14 podium by the way you checked in. And you each 

15 have a number. And after you speaking, you know, 

16 if you'll return the number to me, I appreciate 

17 it. 

18 I also will -- right now -- apologize if 

19 I mispronounce your name. I try to -- I 

20 practiced a little bit, and if I do mispronounce, 

21 I am sorry. 

22 When it is your turn to speak, please 

23 state your name along with spelling your last 
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1 name for the court reporter on the opposite side 

2 and your affiliation before you begin your 

3 testimony. 

4 Your comments will be transcribed and 

5 included in the record of comments on the 

6 proposed rule. 

7 We are grateful to have a full roster of 

8 speakers today. And in order to ensure everybody 

9 has the opportunity to speak and to ensure 

10 fairness, we are going to eliminate -- excuse me 

11 -- we're going to -- sorry. We're going to limit 

12 the testimony to five minutes. We have our handy 

13 dandy timer over here that you'll get four minute 

14 of green, one minute of yellow, and the red light 

15 will sound off. So, when five minutes is up, you 

16 know, come to a quick conclusion, please. 

17 And after you finish your testimony, 

18 members of the panel may ask clarifying 

19 questions. 

20 We are not here today to answer questions 

21 about the proposed rule. If you have questions 

22 about the process, please talk to one of us at 
10 

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1 the table, Anthony Nesky at the back of the room, 

2 and we'll help you out. 

3 If you have any written copies of your 

4 testimony or supporting documentation, please 

5 give us a copy or provide one at the registration 

6 desk. This will be helpful as we prepare the 

7 transcript. 

8 If you have additional comments you would 

9 like to make, you can submit them in writing. 

10 Comments must be received by 5:00 p.m. on May 

11 27th, 2015. 

12 Let me assure you that the Environmental 

13 Protection Agency gives just as much 

14 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

15 as we do to comments we receive in public 

16 hearings like we're having today. 

17 Instructions for submitting comments are 

18 included in the fact sheet back at the 

19 registration table. 

20 Now, let me turn it over to Ingrid who 

21 will summarize the proposed rule. 

22 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you, George, 

23 appreciate it. 
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1 Can everybody hear me okay? 

2 (No response.) 

3 Okay. Super. Well, first off, let me 

4 thank everybody for their participation today -- 

5 coming and through your engagement in this 

6 rulemaking process. 

7 As you know, we're here to discuss 

8 proposed revisions to the health and 

9 environmental protection standards for uranium 

10 and thorium mill tailings, also called 40 CFR 

11 192. 

12 We're proposing to revise this rule by 

13 adding a new subpart, Subpart F, that explicitly 

14 addresses groundwater protection, restoration, 

15 and stability at uranium in-situ recovery 

16 operations. I'll describe the major provisions 

17 of the rule, and then we'll go from there. 

18 First off, the major provisions include 

19 specifying the minimum 13 constituents for which 

20 groundwater protection standards must be met. 

21 And this list includes arsenic, barium, cadmium, 

22 chromium, lead, mercury, selenium, silver nitrate 

23 as nitrogen, molybdenum, combined radium 226 and 
12 

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1 radium 228, total radium, and gross alpha 

2 particle activity, excluding radon and uranium. 

3 We are also specifying monitoring 

4 requirements for the different phases of 

5 operation, including pre-operational, operational 

6 restoration, stability, and long-term stability. 

7 In addition, we also are proposing or 

8 have proposed requirements for corrective action 

9 where necessary. We announced this proposed rule 

10 in the Federal register on January 26th of this 

11 year, and George mentioned the comment period 

12 ends May 27th at this point. 

13 Let's see. Again, my name is Ingrid 

14 Rosencrantz. I am the lead on this rulemaking. I 

15 work in the Radiation Protection Division in the 

16 Office of Radiation and Indoor Air at EPA. Feel 

17 free to contact me via email, 

18 rosencrantz.ingrid@epa.gov, if you have questions 

19 about the rulemaking. And we'll look forward to 

20 hearing your input and receiving comments from 

21 you as well in the docket. 

22 So, turn it back to you. 

23 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you, Ingrid. 
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1 At this time I would like to call up our 

2 first scheduled speaker which is Sam Fugate. 

3 MR. FUGATE: Over here? 

4 MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, please. And once 

5 again, please, once you get comfortable, spell 

6 your name and state who you are representing for 

7 the court reporter, please. 

8 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. My name is Sam 

9 Fugate, F-U-G-A-T-E. I'm the Mayor of the City 

10 of Kingsville. First of all, I'd like to thank 

11 y'all for having us this afternoon and allowing 

12 us to -- to comment on this very important issue 

13 to -- to our city and our county. I'd also like 

14 to thank you for allowing me to speak first. I 

15 think I told some of you that I was in your fair 

16 city this morning. It's -- it's raining in 

17 Washington, D.C., at 6:00 this morning when we 

18 left National. So, ya'll have the same kind of 

19 weather to look forward to when you get home. 

20 Kingsville is a city of about 27,000 

21 people. It's the home of Texas A&M University, 

22 Kingsville, which is a state-supported school of 

23 about 9,000 students. And it's also the home of 
14 

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1 NAS, Naval Air Station, Kingsville. We train 

2 about half the Navy jet pilots that are in the 

3 fleets. And that's the reason why I was in 

4 Washington. That's one of my jobs, to -- we go 

5 up about every 9 to 10 months and flash the flag 

6 and let them know we're still down here. But I 

7 came back because I felt that this is a very 

8 important issue to our community. 

9 I've been Mayor of Kingsville for a 

10 little over -- well, almost 11 years now. And 

11 when I was first elected back 10 years ago, there 

12 was a group of citizens and they called 

13 themselves STOP. And I'm not exactly sure what 

14 STOP stands for. And you'll hear from some of 

15 them because I see them in the audience. 

16 They came to me as Mayor and asked me to 

17 join a litigation that they had -- they had 

18 through the county, suing Uranium Resources, 

19 Incorporated. It's a uranium plant that's just 

20 -- just south of Kingsville. 

21 I told them at that time that if they 

22 could bring to me scientific evidence that URI 
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1 was polluting the groundwater in Kleberg County, 

2 we would consider joining their lawsuit. Haven't 

3 heard from them since. 

4 URI has been a good corporate citizen. 

5 They participate in our community. They've done 

6 a good job in production and harvesting uranium 

7 just south of Kingsville. 

8 The regulations that were in place back 

9 in the '80's when they first started their mines 

10 appears to be working. And I would ask that you 

11 keep those regulations in place. 

12 I'm not here as a technical witness, just 

13 know what I know. Thank you. 

14 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you very much. Our 

15 next speaker is Charles Maguire. 

16 MR. MAGUIRE: Thank you. For the record 

17 my name is Charles Maguire. That's spelled M-A18 G-U-I-R-E. I'm the Director of the Radioactive 

19 Materials Division at the Texas Commission on 

20 Environmental Quality. 

21 I want to thank you, first of all, for 

22 making the trek here. This is a beautiful city 
16 

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1 here in the State of Texas. It's one we're very 

2 proud of. I'm glad you're here with us, and I do 

3 understand it's no small effort to come outside 

4 of D.C. I used to travel that direction 

5 occasionally, and so I do appreciate the fact 

6 that you're here and that you're listening to the 

7 people of Texas and to the Texas government as 

8 you proceed with your rulemaking. 

9 The -- it's important, I think, that you 

10 -- that you do listen to the things that are 

11 going to be said to you both in written and oral 

12 comments. We would like to provide you with our 

13 written comments. We will do that within the 

14 time frame allowed. Those comments, I think you 

15 will see, will be -- will be very specific in 

16 terms of trying to address issues we see with the 

17 regulatory framework in particular as we try and 

18 add a new subsection to 40 CFR Part 192. 

19 We think it's important that that 

20 regulatory framework fit well within other 

21 existing frameworks that we have through the 

22 underground injection control program, also 
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1 delegated that Texas has primacy in that program 

2 for in-situ uranium mining. We also need to be 

3 certain that it's well within the framework 

4 provided by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. 

5 A couple of the things that we would 

6 mention just then in the oral testimony that I'm 

7 giving you this morning is, number one, it will 

8 take some time. And I do know you fully 

9 understand that, but it needs to be said. It 

10 will take some time to integrate a completely new 

11 subsection into the existing regulatory framework 

12 and there will -- there will need to be actions 

13 taken within the Environmental Protection Agency 

14 and the UIC program, also actions taken by the 

15 Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and then sort of 

16 at the end of all of that, the State of Texas 

17 will have to engage in a rulemaking -- probably a 

18 significant amount of guidance and policy 

19 development to go along with that to be able to 

20 achieve the kind of statistical approaches that 

21 -- that you have in mind in this framework. 

22 We're also hoping that with our comments 
18 

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1 that -- that you will consider some suggested 

2 changes to the regulatory framework that you've 

3 proposed. We have some ideas that we think might 

4 address the concerns that you have that might be 

5 more practical in terms of being able to 

6 implement those. And so, we -- we will be very 

7 specific about what we would suggest as a way to 

8 achieve some of these things. 

9 It's also our intention to continue the 

10 dialogue with you. Again, I appreciate you being 

11 here, but it's -- it's important enough to us to 

12 continue on -- while you are taking public 

13 comments, we will be visiting with you to discuss 

14 our ideas, our thoughts, perhaps providing some 

15 data and some things like that that would prove 

16 helpful to you. 

17 Again, thank you for being here. 

18 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Our next 

19 speaker is Dale Kohler. 

20 MR. KOHLER: Good afternoon. You 

21 pronounced it exactly right. My name is Dale 

22 Kohler, K-O-H-L-E-R. Many toilets here in the 
19 

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1 hotel, so I appreciate that. 

2 Thank you for being here this afternoon. 

3 I appreciate that. I am with the Texas 

4 Commission on Environmental Quality, also the 

5 TCEQ, you might hear that sometimes. 

6 Since I've been at the agency, I think 

7 we've changed names five times. So you might see 

8 records or hear things that it's TCEQ. It could 

9 be Texas Water Commission. It could have been 

10 the TNRCC, affectionately known by many as a 

11 train wreck. 

12 And before that it was the Department of 

13 Water Resources, and before that we had several 

14 other names. So we're not the Railroad 

15 Commission. We change names just about every 

16 other legislative session, but it is the water 

17 side of the agencies that we're dealing with 

18 here. 

19 So, as Charles also works in the same 

20 Agency, since he just spoke, I won't repeat what 

21 he said, but his division is the licensing and 

22 permitting side of this program. The division 
20 

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1 that I'm in is the compliance side. So we would 

2 have the inspectors, if there's complaints, if 

3 there's enforcement to be taken -- I'm out of the 

4 Office of Compliance and Enforcement for most of 

5 what my job is, especially in regard to this 

6 program. So, I could help be a resource witness 

7 on some of those TCEQ questions if needed. 

8 But I'm also here today speaking for the 

9 Groundwater Protection Council, also known as the 

10 GWPC, which is a national organization of states. 

11 We're very involved with the EPA and the NRC on 

12 many different issues -- currently aquifer 

13 exemptions are a big issue. 

14 I'm on the Board of Directors of the GWPC 

15 representing basically EPA Region 6 currently. 

16 The President of the GWPC right now is from the 

17 Texas Railroad Commission, so there's a very 

18 strong Texas connection in GWPC. 

19 They send their regards. They aren't 

20 able to be here because they are all in process 

21 of traveling, which I'll be doing on Thursday. 

22 We have a Board meeting, so I'll be heading out 
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1 to there. So I'll be reporting back to them on 

2 how this is going and how the GWPC may get 

3 involved. They may or may not. There's clearly 

4 other states involved such as Wyoming, Nebraska, 

5 New Mexico -- all these other states are also in 

6 GWPC, and I think you may have additional 

7 hearings in other states, so there will be some 

8 involvement there. So, if there's something that 

9 GWPC needs to know or if something comes out 

10 here, I'll be reporting back to them, and I'm 

11 sure they will be in touch. 

12 I am here at your disposal, and if you 

13 have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them. 

14 Otherwise, I am finished with my testimony. 

15 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

16 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. 

17 MR. BROZOWSKI: The next person is Art 

18 Darrow? 

19 MR. DOHMANN: Dohmann. 

20 MR. BROZOWSKI: Say it again, please. 

21 MR. DOHMANN: Dohmann. 

22 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Sorry about that. 
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1 MR. DOHMANN: My name is Art Dohmann, 

2 D-O-H-M-A-N-N. I am a rural resident and land 

3 owner in Goliad County. I serve on the Goliad 

4 County Groundwater Conservation District Board of 

5 Directors, acronym GCGCD. Thank you for 

6 providing this opportunity to make comments on 

7 the proposed rules governing in-situ uranium 

8 mining in drinking water aquifers. Groundwater 

9 is the lifeblood of Goliad County, providing 

10 domestic and livestock water supplies to the 

11 agricultural based economy. 

12 Without adequate and good quality 

13 groundwater, rural areas like Goliad County would 

14 suffer a tremendous economic disaster. In Goliad 

15 County over 5,000 domestic and livestock supply 

16 wells are pumping water from the same sands where 

17 the uranium ore was deposited millions of years 

18 ago. 

19 To go in and disturb these drinking water 

20 aquifers for the purpose of removing the uranium 

21 has the potential of creating a health risk that 

22 can exist for many years. GCGCD has been 
23 

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1 monitoring uranium bore hole exploration and 

2 potential in-situ mining for eight years. 

3 GCGCD has got an extensive scientific and 

4 site data on water quality and the hydrology in 

5 the area around a potential mining operation. 

6 This data includes information on the 

7 contaminated water wells during exploration, 

8 baseline water quality levels, aquifer modeling, 

9 and mapping. This information has been shared 

10 with the EPA Region 6. 

11 The GCGCD data strongly supports the 

12 proposed rules which address preoperational phase 

13 monitoring, a consistent monitoring network 

14 throughout all phases of the project and post 

15 mining long-term stability phase monitoring. 

16 This is especially critical in areas like 

17 the proposed mining operation in Goliad County 

18 where the mining operation is force fitted into a 

19 small area surrounded by domestic and livestock 

20 water supply wells. 

21 GCGCD commends and supports the EPA for 

22 developing these proposed rules. When 
24 

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1 implemented, these rules will be a significant 

2 improvement over existing regulatory requirements 

3 and will be a big step forward in a long-term 

4 protection of groundwater resources in the 

5 vicinity of in-situ uranium mining sites. Thank 

6 you very much. 

7 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

8 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. We have a 

9 question. 

10 MR. PEAKE: Yes. Even though that you 

11 have provided that to EPA Region 6, would you 

12 also supply it for us for use in our docket for 

13 our rulemaking? 

14 MR. DOHMANN: We would be very happy to 

15 do that. 

16 MR. PEAKE: Okay. 

17 MR. DOHMANN: The information is all in 

18 -- in a packet in Region 6 associated with the 

19 aquifer exemption, and we will be happy to take 

20 this information and -- and would you like it 

21 hard copied or -- 

22 MR. PEAKE: Electronically is fine. 
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1 MR. DOHMANN: Electronically? 

2 MR. PEAKE: And just submit it to the 

3 docket. 

4 MR. DOHMANN: Okay. We will be happy to 

5 do that. 

6 MR. PEAKE: All right. Thank you. 

7 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. 

8 MR. DOHMANN: Thank you. 

9 MR. BROZOWSKI: Bruce Darling? 

10 MR. DARLING: Hello, my name is Bruce 

11 Darling. Last name is D-A-R-L-I-N-G. And if 

12 you've read the book Peter Pan or seen the movie, 

13 you know what it is and how to spell it. 

14 I am the author of one of the reports 

15 that was cited as a basis for a justification for 

16 the -- the proposed rule. That was a report I 

17 wrote in 2008. Actually, it was part of 

18 litigation related to the County of Goliad. It 

19 was where I met -- I met Art. I know Art Dohmann 

20 quite well. 

21 And actually, I've had an opportunity to 

22 -- I don't want to say -- work on both sides of 
26 

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1 this issue but to delve deeply into it from the 

2 perspective of communities such as Goliad and 

3 then from the industry as well. 

4 In the last several years I have been 

5 fortunate to conduct rather intensive studies on 

6 the geochemistry of sites close to uranium sites 

7 in-situ, of leased mining sites to get a better 

8 understanding of what's actually happening here 

9 and what's controlling the uranium and other 

10 elements in solution. 

11 Now, as a geochemist I deal extensively 

12 and helped out have dealt extensively with redox 

13 sensitive elements, most extensively -- 

14 particularly arsenic and uranium. And I've 

15 crossed the Gulf Coast and elsewhere as well. 

16 And we were interested in this case in 

17 looking at what happens to a closed site. And 

18 what we found was that -- or contrary to, I 

19 think, many public opinion is that we see a very 

20 rapid restoration of reducing conditions at these 

21 closed sites. We saw that as well in the 

22 preoperational phase of Goliad, and we have seen 
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1 it very definitely in the sites we've studied 

2 extensively at -- in Milam County. There we had 

3 13 wells staffed each quarter for a period of a 

4 year -- extensive chemistry in these. 

5 I prepared a report for the client, 

6 Signal Equities, and we're also preparing a paper 

7 for presentation and publication. The paper 

8 sheds much light on these processes. And it 

9 emphasizes, I think, the potential for natural 

10 attenuation to handle many of these things very 

11 rapidly. 

12 So I would encourage -- I would encourage 

13 you to -- to consider that. The client, I'm 

14 hoping will make that information available to 

15 you. I know that it will certainly be available 

16 in published form later this year. We haven't 

17 chosen the venue for that -- probably through the 

18 text of the Gulf Coast Association of Geological 

19 Societies for Publication and Presentation, but 

20 you'll find much information there that I think 

21 will answer many questions you have about the 

22 preoperational and post-operational issues at in-
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1 situ -- in-situ release mines. 

2 And I think what you'll find is that -- 

3 is that the potential for natural attenuation is 

4 far greater than even I could previously 

5 consider. And I think that that should be 

6 factored into your rulemaking process to -- to 

7 maybe temper some of the recommendations about 

8 the length of time required to -- to monitor some 

9 of these things. 

10 Any questions? 

11 MR. BROZOWSKI: We have one question. 

12 MR. DARLING: Certainly. 

13 MR. PEAKE: In what you've seen, how 

14 would the introduction of the lixiviant affect 

15 the redox conditions? 

16 MR. DARLING: Well, the lixiviant 

17 obviously, that affects the redox condition 

18 because it drives it into an oxidized state 

19 because the uranium is there because it's -- it's 

20 a reducing boundary -- it's a redox boundary. So 

21 the uranium6 , which is the oxidized state, goes 

22 to uranium 4, and it drops out (inaudible) one of 
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1 the uranium minerals. 

2 The introduction of the lixiviant drives 

3 it upward and into an oxidizing state which -- 

4 which is how they later recover the uranium. 

5 Now, what we found is that in looking at 

6 these things, we didn't have the data in the -- 

7 in the Texas Water Development Board data base to 

8 be able to answer these because we dug into the 

9 issue at the -- at Live Oak. 

10 What we found was that over that period 

11 of time, since the closure of the mine, that the 

12 ORP [oxidation reduction potential] had returned 

13 to very strongly negative conditions, and that 

14 might range from minus 250 to almost minus 300 

15 millivolts. 

16 So, the life of the lixiviant, I think, 

17 is strongly controlled by the biological activity 

18 in the -- in the ore body. 

19 There are other things that can affect 

20 that as well. I think the introduction of things 

21 such as a drilling (inaudible) early -- early in 

22 the -- the process can also act as a lixiviant as 
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1 well. 

2 But those things are not permanent. 

3 Those things actually have half lives of their 

4 own, and that's why it's dependent on, again, the 

5 biological activity within -- within that zone. 

6 And interesting enough, some of the 

7 lowest concentrations of uranium we found at Live 

8 Oak were actually within the old mined area. 

9 Where the amended restoration target 

10 value had been requested at .28 milligrams per 

11 liter, and across the board within the mined area 

12 we found concentrations of one one-thousandth of 

13 a milligram earlier in the eight wells within the 

14 producing area itself we had several wells 

15 upgraded there and several wells downgraded, but 

16 interestingly enough, some of the lowest are 

17 right there in that -- in that old mine area, the 

18 old roll front where we detected very, very 

19 strong -- strongly negative ORPs. The wells all 

20 were redolent of -- of hydrogen sulfide. And so 

21 it was very clear to me early on that we were 

22 looking at the reestablishment of reducing 
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1 conditions under just normal -- normal 

2 conditions. 

3 MR. PEAKE: And could you just identify 

4 what ORP is for the -- 

5 MR. DARLING: That's oxidation reduction 

6 potential, yes. In -- in geochemistry, of 

7 course, we look at charge balance, but many 

8 elements, of course, such as uranium are what we 

9 call redox sensitive. They have more than one 

10 oxidation state. Uranium will have a plus 6 or a 

11 plus -- plus 4 [oxidation state]. And the redox 

12 potential which is potential for an element to 

13 exchange an electron or share an electron, it's 

14 measured by this oxidation reduction potential. 

15 Now, unfortunately we don't have a lot of 

16 that at many of the sites, but we had extensive 

17 ORP data at the Live Oak site in the Brown Mine, 

18 Moose Brown Mine in Live Oak County to allow us 

19 to do the type of redox modeling we needed to be 

20 able to show which state we were in. 

21 MR. PEAKE: Thank you. 

22 MR. DARLING: Thank you. 
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1 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. George 

2 Bokorney? 

3 MR. BOKORNEY: My name is George 

4 Bokorney, work for Signal Equities. That's 

5 spelled B-O-K-O-R-N-E-Y. 

6 We are a company that has a history of 

7 producing uranium in Texas back in the early 

8 '80's, McBride Project. Our owners then 

9 produced, reclaimed, and were releasing their 

10 bond. And we have a good track record going back 

11 in early in the '80's. 

12 And we have since been permitting and 

13 exploring, and getting ready for the uptick in 

14 price which we are all hoping for. Nobody seems 

15 to know, but as we approached the communities in 

16 which we wanted to operate, we believed it was 

17 very important to reach out to the entire 

18 community, the elected officials, regulatory 

19 folks, and those who would oppose us. 

20 And we sat down and we asked them “what 

21 is it that your concerns are at that time”. 

22 There were some other controversies going on. 
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1 And so, based on that we reached out and we said 

2 we would agree. We'd like to know what the long3 term impact of these operations are to the local 

4 groundwater. 

5 Dr. Darling was prominent in the 

6 headlines at that time, and so we asked him to 

7 consider a site that had been produced, restored 

8 and released, and to compare the water quality 

9 there with the water quality up dip from that 

10 known location in the middle of it, down dip, and 

11 the surrounding area throughout the county. And 

12 so it's an important first step, and we believe 

13 there's probably more of these types of sites 

14 that we could go in and look at if you have 

15 further concerns about that. 

16 We believe it does introduce science to 

17 the equation, and it's -- it's good science. And 

18 we've found that everybody who's had a chance to 

19 look at it (clears throat) -- excuse me. We've 

20 had oak pollen counts of 30,000 plus in my part 

21 of the country, so I'm still suffering the 

22 ravages of oak pollen, but we -- we make this 
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1 report available and we will include that to you 

2 folks for your review. Like Bruce said, it's 

3 going to be sent out for peer review and analyzed 

4 by the scientific community as well. Thank you. 

5 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 

6 Charles Salsman? 

7 MR. SALSMAN: My name is Charles Salsman, 

8 spelled S-A-L-S-M-A-N, and I'm with Signal 

9 Equities. 

10 I appreciate the opportunity to speak 

11 with you today and for you coming to Corpus. My 

12 comments are very brief in that we would 

13 encourage EPA to engage in a more extensive 

14 dialogue with the TCEQ here in Texas and other 

15 regulatory agencies in the other states to 

16 incorporate the knowledge base that they have 

17 developed in the program that exists here in 

18 Texas. 

19 We believe that the program in Texas has 

20 been effective. It has protected public health 

21 and safety in the environment, and it's achieved 

22 the results of allowing uranium operators to 
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1 produce uranium in this state in a cost effective 

2 way. And we think that it's important that that 

3 dialogue include the discussion of details on -- 

4 perhaps there are some improvements to the 

5 program that could be incorporated through data 

6 that EPA has or the data that now exists as a 

7 result of the work that we have done. 

8 But we do believe that the rules as 

9 proposed under the latest version of Part 192 

10 don't achieve the same objective, and at the same 

11 time would create an unnecessary burden on the 

12 mining industry. So, that is the extent of my 

13 remarks. 

14 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Ches Blevins? 

15 MR. BLEVINS: Yes, thank you. Good 

16 afternoon. My name is Ches Blevins, 

17 B-L-E-V-I-N-S. I'm the Executive Director of the 

18 Texas Mining and Reclamation Association or TMRA. 

19 TMRA is a Texas non-profit trade association, 

20 representing over 150 members and companies 

21 actively involved in mining of numerous 

22 materials, including uranium, a mineral very 
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1 important to Texas, the United States, and 

2 worldwide. 

3 As the collective voice of uranium mining 

4 and this industry in Texas, TMRA is asking that 

5 the EPA carefully consider all of the comments 

6 you will receive. And then, one, either withdraw 

7 these proposed regulations or at least extend the 

8 comment period for at least an additional 90 

9 days. 

10 Two, establish a working group and 

11 process with all stakeholders. 

12 And, finally, three, have an open, 

13 transparent, and scientifically based evaluation 

14 of real substantiated data and other information 

15 that is not -- at least as appears to be the case 

16 so far with the present rules -- prejudged to 

17 reach a specified end. 

18 The EPA process with this rulemaking 

19 today has lacked necessary transparency or 

20 collaboration. It appears that EPA sought its 

21 own counsel looking inward rather than requesting 

22 real facts, data, and information from even your 
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1 agreement states like Texas or an organization 

2 like TMRA that has worked in this arena with 

3 those involved, both the operators and the 

4 regulatory agencies since the '70's. 

5 As we read the proposal, one aspect would 

6 require post restoration monitoring up to 30 

7 years. This requirement has in no way been 

8 justified for Texas based on any historic or even 

9 expected issues and importantly, fails to 

10 consider both private property rights and 

11 conservation of our precious and getting-to-be12 more-precious groundwater resources. 

13 One requirement for our Texas permits is 

14 to secure an aquifer exemption. This is only 

15 secured after an exhaustive and thorough review 

16 by the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality 

17 and its authorization of an ISR following its 

18 review and full opportunity for public 

19 information, public feedback, and possibility of 

20 public hearing. 

21 Moreover, this aquifer exemption is only 

22 received when the EPA has found that water that 
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1 could be impacted is not apparently a source of 

2 drinking water and cannot now or likely serve as 

3 a source of drinking water in the future. Makes 

4 sense since that water isn't potable as the 

5 uranium to be recovered is located where there is 

6 naturally occurring uranium and radioactivity 

7 that is associated with uranium in the rock along 

8 with elevated ions such as arsenic and selenium. 

9 With this level of expert review and 

10 consideration and with no history of this 

11 approach not being fully protective of our 

12 resources, the public, and the environment, EPA 

13 has shown no justification for a new level of 

14 regulations at this time. 

15 The Texas UIC program requirements have 

16 been successful for over 30 years in mitigating 

17 the risk to water resources surrounding the 

18 exempted area. Bottom line, one, EPA's economic 

19 analysis is off by an order or orders of 

20 magnitude as it fails to fully consider the long21 term modeling, analysis, administrative cost, 

22 surety holding cost, system maintenance cost, as 
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1 well as land holding cost that would be required 

2 to be extended perhaps an additional 20 plus 

3 years. And that's assuming that you could get 

4 leases that would last that long. 

5 Number two, EPA has failed to consider 

6 the excessive water uses likely required to reach 

7 a 95 percent confidence level or, for that 

8 matter, any real benefit from that usage and the 

9 associated cost. 

10 MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute. 

11 MR. BLEVINS: Finally, EPA pulls the plug 

12 on the regulatory certainty that is a basic and 

13 fundamental requirement for any business will or 

14 should invest millions of dollars in a project. 

15 Without this certainty and without the 

16 investment, jobs, tax base, and the resource will 

17 be lost or wasted in the ground. Thank you. 

18 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 

19 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: I have one question. 

20 MR. BROZOWSKI: Question. Yes, ma'am. 

21 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Sorry. One question. 

22 MR. BLEVINS: That's all right. 
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1 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: I'm just wondering if 

2 -- if -- or would just request that if you do 

3 have data on the costs that you were citing, that 

4 you submit that to the docket. That could be 

5 helpful. 

6 MR. BLEVINS: We certainly will be 

7 providing written comments by the -- whatever the 

8 date ends up being. 

9 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Okay. 

10 MR. BLEVINS: Yes, ma'am. 

11 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Okay. Great. Thank 

12 you. 

13 MR. BROZOWSKI: And could you -- 

14 MR. PEAKE: Can you provide a copy of 

15 your comments, please? 

16 MR. BLEVINS: I can, yes. I'm not going 

17 to give you the one that's got all my markings on 

18 it, but I'm happy to provide them. 

19 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Great. Great. 

20 Thank you. 

21 Dane McCoig? Again, I apologize. 

22 MR. MCCOIG: You got it. No problem. 
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1 MR. BROZOWSKI: I did? Really? 

2 MR. MCCOIG: Hello. My name is Dane 

3 McCoig, M-C-C-O-I-G -- you're one of the few that 

4 actually get to pronounce it right, so thank you. 

5 I'm here as -- I'm the Vice-President of 

6 South Texas Operations for Uranium Resources, 

7 Incorporated. We have offices in Kingsville, 

8 Texas. We also have some near Hebbronville and 

9 also some near San Diego, Texas. 

10 I am here in opposition to the proposed 

11 changes to 40 CFR Part 192. 

12 Our company was founded in 1977 for the 

13 purposes of mining uranium, using the in-situ 

14 leach recovery methods. We have two projects 

15 that have been mined and completely reclaimed 

16 here in Texas, and we currently have three other 

17 projects which are in all different phases of 

18 restoration now. And all of them have completed 

19 in some phases the restoration, and we're working 

20 towards final closure on all three of them. 

21 We currently hold over 17,000 acres of 

22 mineral holdings in Texas and an additional 
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1 200,000 acres in New Mexico. Our company has a 

2 successful history of mining and restoring the 

3 groundwater here in Texas. It's been a long 

4 history, and we are -- we've been working with 

5 the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality 

6 since they were TNRCC and Texas Water Commission. 

7 I bring up the history to highlight the 

8 fact that our company and the State of Texas do 

9 have more than 30 years worth of experience and 

10 data on uranium mining and restoration. The data 

11 will show that there's no source of drinking 

12 water that has been affected by our operations. 

13 The data shows the complete and lasting 

14 restoration in several areas and current 

15 restoration ongoing in many others. It is a 

16 history of success, and I would urge you to 

17 utilize that information going forward. 

18 We all know the importance of the 

19 groundwater for all of us. It's obviously our 

20 lifeblood. It's important for everybody. The 

21 cleanliness and the protection is extremely 

22 important. 
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1 We believe the State of Texas has put 

2 together -- over the last 30 years -- a very 

3 robust underground injection control program. 

4 And I've worked with many of them. And they're 

5 continually updating and making changes. And 

6 it's for the betterment of the groundwater 

7 protection and the protection of the people. 

8 The proposal states that the current 

9 industry practices for restoration and monitoring 

10 of the aquifer may not be -- may not be adequate; 

11 but based upon the history, that statement seems 

12 to be unjustified, and it's -- sorry. Obviously 

13 the key issue of the rule is the 30-year 

14 requirement for stability. 

15 Now, there are other issues that we have 

16 with some of the proposed regulations, but this 

17 one seems to be crucial. As mentioned in the 

18 proposed rule, the groundwater standards were 

19 derived from the RCRA groundwater monitoring 

20 framework applicable to hazardous waste disposal 

21 sites. An important thing to note is we're not a 

22 hazardous waste disposal site. 
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1 The preamble to the rule covers some 

2 detailed steps that are taken to restore 

3 groundwater. And the rule itself does not 

4 contest any means of which restoration is done. 

5 In fact, it acknowledges that the restoration 

6 takes place and is effective. 

7 If these were ineffective, then there 

8 would be alternate alternatives that would have 

9 been required or proposed. 

10 The constituents in the ground after 

11 mining are the same ones that were there before 

12 mining. No one is claiming that ISR does not 

13 affect the chemistry of the groundwater mining 

14 zone. That's how ISR works. We all know that. 

15 But the fact that restoration is done and 

16 no waste is in the groundwater indicates the -- 

17 an alternative to the 30 year monitoring for 

18 hazardous waste sites should be considered. 

19 The rule states it is important to 

20 protect groundwater to ensure the preservation of 

21 the nation's currently used and potential 

22 groundwater sources of drinking water for present 
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1 and future generations. 

2 Now, nobody disagrees with a single word 

3 of that, but it is important to note in this -- 

4 MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute. 

5 MR. McCOIG: -- in this conversation that 

6 the fields were not, are not, and never will be 

7 sources of drinking water. And that's according 

8 to the U.S. EPA Aquifer Exemption Program -- also 

9 that no USDW has been affected by ISR mining 

10 sites. These are exempted aquifers where no 

11 mineralization occurs. To drink the water now or 

12 a hundred years in the future, it's going to 

13 require a lot of treatment -- and not just for 

14 uranium. Generally several other constituents 

15 are out of range as well. 

16 The concern over affecting the drinking 

17 water is unfounded in this point. The bill 

18 states it will not substantially affect companies 

19 like ours. We're a small company, and uranium 

20 recovery has been quite expensive. Prices of 

21 uranium have dropped. Our company has not 

22 recovered uranium for several years due to the 
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1 rising costs. And we certainly plan to continue 

2 mining once it's feasible; but adding 30 years to 

3 the stability would almost guaranty several of 

4 the small companies would never be able to mine 

5 again. Now I know that's not the goal of these 

6 regulations, but I certainly hope it -- it 

7 wouldn't be the effect. 

8 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 

9 MR. PEAKE: I have a question. 

10 MR. BROZOWSKI: Questions. 

11 MR. PEAKE: You say that you don't think 

12 30 years is appropriate for the monitoring. How 

13 long do you think monitoring should be done, and 

14 why? And what would the basis be? 

15 MR. McCOIG: Well, the basis would be 

16 based upon the history of the ISR industry and 

17 the long-term data that's shown. The TCEQ has a 

18 two-year stability program which certainly seems 

19 to be effective in protecting the groundwater. 

20 And the issues surrounding that have been 

21 thoroughly thought through in the rulemaking 

22 process, and we agree with those decisions. 
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1 MR. PEAKE: Thanks. 

2 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Mina 

3 Williams? 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: My name is Mina Williams, 

5 M-I-N-A, W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S. I am Vice Chair of the 

6 Coastal Bend Sierra Club Group and here today on 

7 behalf of the 500, approximately, members of that 

8 group to commend you for the proposed revisions 

9 of 40 CFR Part 192 which if implemented as 

10 intended and strengthened will greatly improve 

11 and clarify the rules governing ISR uranium 

12 operations in those states which implement them. 

13 For the past eight years CBSCG has 

14 followed and supported the courageous citizens of 

15 Goliad and Kleberg County in their efforts to 

16 protect their groundwater from possible 

17 contamination resulting from ISR uranium 

18 operations in those counties. 

19 It's good to see many of those seemingly 

20 tireless friends here today to comment on these 

21 revisions and to support the EPA's efforts. With 

22 guidance from CBSCG's Conservation Chair, Venice 
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1 Scheurich, who taught college level mathematics 

2 and statistics for many years, CBSCG has 

3 participated in numerous meetings, hearings, 

4 workshops on ISR uranium operations for the past 

5 decade. And now, at last, we see progress 

6 potentially being made toward real improvements 

7 in the ISR rules governing preoperational, 

8 operational -- operational and post-operational 

9 procedures. 

10 We are heartened to see that these 

11 improvements, if properly implemented, especially 

12 impact in a positive way the critical assessment 

13 of baseline values, monitoring at all phases, and 

14 lengthening of time frames for monitoring. 

15 Again, thank you for proposing Subpart F 

16 40 CFR Part 192 and for considering suggestions 

17 and recommendations in the written comments we 

18 are submitting. 

19 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 

21 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. And thank you 

22 again. 
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1 Venice Scheurich? And please correct me. 

2 MS. SCHEURICH: Okay. My name is Venice, 

3 like the city, V-E-N-I-C-E; last name Scheurich, 

4 spelled S-C-H-E-U-R-I-C-H. 

5 And as Mina said, I'm the Conservation 

6 Chair of the Coastal Bend Sierra Club Group and 

7 here today also speaking on their behalf. 

8 Want to thank you for coming to the Texas 

9 Coastal Bend to hear our comments and especially 

10 thank you for making groundwater protection your 

11 primary focus as you work on the revisions to 40 

12 CFR Part 192. 

13 Some of you here today on the panel as 

14 well as in the audience I recognize from five and 

15 a half years ago when you came to take comments. 

16 You were just beginning the revisions. And I -- 

17 you'll recall that our main concern expressed at 

18 that meeting focused on how locations for the 

19 baseline wells were being determined. Now that 

20 determination is, of course, critically important 

21 because samples from those wells are used to 

22 estimate pre-operational groundwater quality, and 
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1 they also established the post-operational 

2 restoration standards. 

3 During that 2010 meeting we also 

4 expressed concern over how data from those wells 

5 was being summarized and interpreted. 

6 Subsequently, about four years ago, in 2011, your 

7 Science Advisory Board, independent scientists 

8 and statisticians of the Radiation Advisory 

9 Committee held meetings, took public comments as 

10 they framed their recommendations. 

11 On behalf of our Sierra Group I 

12 participated in two of the board's 

13 teleconferences and also submitted written 

14 comments, again expressing our concerns that 

15 Texas regulators allowed sometimes invalid 

16 statistical methods to be used by some operators 

17 to estimate baseline groundwater parameters. 

18 Three years ago, in February of 2012, as 

19 you know, the Science Advisory Board submitted 

20 their report to EPA. And our group was pleased 

21 to note that our concerns had been effectively 

22 addressed in that report. 
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1 To cite just one example from that 

2 Advisory Board report, on page 29 - and I quote 

3 -- “any cherry picking of affected locations or 

4 under estimating long-term changes due to ISL 

5 mining and recovery operations must be avoided.” 

6 Now we're thankful that EPA has acknowledged 

7 evidence of some operators and regulators 

8 sometimes having used high end values to 

9 represent the well field, which can, in turn, 

10 result in selecting artificially high restoration 

11 goals. 

12 We are grateful that the new Subpart F 

13 addresses this problem so that the selection bias 

14 in that data due to non random locating of 

15 baseline wells can be enormously reduced if not 

16 eliminated. 

17 In general we're pleased that your 

18 proposed revisions incorporate the Science 

19 Advisory Board's suggestions and, in particular, 

20 that you're including this recommendation. 

21 “Devote at least as much effort to 

22 defining background conditions as to post 
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1 operational monitoring.” 

2 Our Sierra group strongly endorses this 

3 SAB recommendation. In fact, we believe that in 

4 every case where groundwater will be affected by 

5 industrial operations, regulators should and must 

6 undertake all reasonable means to understand 

7 potential groundwater effects before they begin. 

8 So, thank you for considering these 

9 comments as well as the written ones we're 

10 submitting. 

11 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Mark Walsh? 

12 MR. WALSH: My name is Mark Walsh. My 

13 last name is W-A-L-S-H. I am here today as a 

14 member of STOP which is South Texas Opposes 

15 Pollution. This group has been organized for 

16 many years to monitor and -- the vigil over the 

17 restoration of the mining process in Garcia Hill 

18 is about four and a half miles by the crow fly 

19 southeast of Kingsville. 

20 This particular area has a high 

21 concentration of families, and there's been some 

22 real problems with the contamination of the 
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1 water. It seems that multiple pre-mining 

2 exploration exploratory wells has contaminated 

3 the water. And this has been going on now for 

4 many, many years. It's now 25 years. And only 

5 recently we have had some closure. 

6 Uranium mining in Kleberg County has 

7 elevated the concentration of contaminants by all 

8 of these extra -- or exploratory wells. And as a 

9 result, this water is no longer available for 

10 domestic or agricultural use. 

11 You already announced that restoration 

12 was complete and that it was beginning stability 

13 testing. Uranium and other constituents are 

14 elevated above the baseline. And even worse, URI 

15 has applied for an amendment to the restoration 

16 table which TCEQ Executive Director has approved. 

17 I -- I have a copy of the statement. One 

18 person that could not come today has been the 

19 major author, and her name is Elizabeth 

20 Cumberland. And then she had family ties into 

21 this particular area I'm speaking about. 

22 Also, we have consulted with expert Rick 
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1 Abitz, Rich Abitz, and we have quite a bit of 

2 documentation about some of these issues and be 

3 happy to provide those to you in writing or 

4 online, whichever the case may be. 

5 I am not an expert in the technical end 

6 of it, but I am concerned about the possibility 

7 of the heavy metals that are disturbed in all of 

8 this exploration and uranium in the drinking 

9 water does cause kidney damage and may cause 

10 other types of cancer. 

11 So that's my report, and I thank you very 

12 much for coming and for listening, and I'll 

13 provide this to you. 

14 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Well thank you. 

15 Craig Wall? 

16 MR. WALL: Good afternoon. My name is 

17 Craig Wall, W-A-L-L. I represent Uranium Energy 

18 Corps. Uranium Energy Corps safely operates a 

19 uranium satellite facility and a processing 

20 facility in South Texas. And these proposed 

21 rules will adversely affect our industry and have 

22 no additional environmental health or safety 
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1 benefit. 

2 When I first read the executive summary 

3 for the proposed rule, I kept expecting to find 

4 data that was contrary to all the existing data, 

5 ISR miners and their regulators have collected 

6 over the last 30 plus years. 

7 To the contrary, the summary was 

8 inundated with speculative words such as 

9 potential, likely, and might more than 200 times. 

10 On the other hand, definitive words such 

11 as proof, proven, and/or confirmed were used only 

12 twice in the entire document. This method of 

13 rulemaking is fear-based, irresponsible, and does 

14 not follow the EPA's own mission to ensure that 

15 national efforts to reduce environmental risk are 

16 based on the best available scientific 

17 information. 

18 My second thought after reading the 

19 executive summary was why do the EPA think rules 

20 for characterizing background water chemistry, 

21 establishing and meeting restoration goals and 

22 timelines for stability monitoring were 
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1 nonexistent or outdated. 

2 Had they solicited the industry or Texas' 

3 own regulatory agency since a preliminary meeting 

4 back in 2010, the EPA would know that a very 

5 thorough and protective set of rules already 

6 exists, a set of rules designed specifically for 

7 the ISR industry developed and evolved as the 

8 industry involved, and undoubtedly with numerous 

9 opportunities for public participation. 

10 As I further rationalized the net effect 

11 of these proposed rules, it became clear that 

12 what was being proposed is additional pre-mining, 

13 baseline sampling, and decades of unwarranted 

14 stability sampling just to ensure that 

15 groundwater that does not meet EPA primary or 

16 secondary drinking water standards will, at the 

17 end of 30 years of stability monitoring, still 

18 not meet primary or secondary drinking water 

19 standards. 

20 Even more disheartening is despite 

21 whether or not mining activity actually occurs, 

22 the naturally contaminated aquifers we're talking 
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1 about must be treated prior to consumption 

2 exactly as they have mining actually occurred. 

3 So, either we protect these very isolated 

4 naturally contaminated aquifers for future 

5 generations to treat later on down the road or we 

6 exempt the aquifers, recover the ore, create 

7 jobs, generate tax revenue for cities, allow 

8 landowners to pursue their mineral interests, and 

9 then treat the groundwater exactly how it would 

10 have been treated had nothing economically or 

11 productive been done at all. 

12 In conclusion, no one in this industry 

13 believes the industry should be unregulated; 

14 however, the industry adamantly defends its track 

15 record that no examples of offsite groundwater 

16 contamination in over 30 years of ISO mining has 

17 ever been documented. 

18 The reason for this is simple and 

19 unquestionable. The existing rules work. The 

20 EPA should withdraw the rules currently being 

21 proposed for the following reasons: The industry 

22 and state regulatory agencies are not involved in 
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1 the draft rulemaking process. The EPA failed to 

2 provide conclusive evidence that current methods 

3 for establishing background characteristics are 

4 inaccurate and that the EPA failed to provide 

5 conclusive evidence that current stability 

6 monitoring requirements are ineffective. Thank 

7 you. 

8 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Troupe 

9 Brewer? 

10 MR. BREWER: Good afternoon. My name is 

11 Troupe, and that's T-R-O-U-P-E, Brewer, B-R-E-W12 E-R. I'm here today on behalf of the owner13 operator members of the Texas Mining and 

14 Reclamation Association's Uranium Committee. 

15 In brief, the owner-operators in Texas do 

16 not think the proposed EPA ruling with a new 

17 Subpart to 40 CFR Part 192 are necessary due to 

18 existing regulatory oversight. 

19 The uranium mining industry believes that 

20 it is important for the EPA to note the 

21 substantial regulatory oversight of the 

22 industry's activities by the State of Texas. 
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1 Specifically, the Texas Commission on 

2 Environmental Quality and the Railroad Commission 

3 of Texas provide extensive regulation of the 

4 industry's daily in-situ recovery operations or 

5 ISR. 

6 Texas laws and rules regulating ISR 

7 operations are modernized. Recent legislation 

8 and state agency rulemakings in Texas have 

9 brought the laws and regulations which govern the 

10 industry up to date. Multiple legislative acts 

11 enacted in 2007, Senate Bill 1604, House Bill 

12 3837, and House Bill 3838, and also acts in 2013, 

13 House Bill 1079, specifically, updated Texas 

14 statutory law and made certain that Texas law was 

15 applicable to current mining techniques and 

16 operations. 

17 The Texas legislature enacted House Bill 

18 1079 in 2013 to address groundwater quality 

19 issues for the industry, including groundwater 

20 restoration. The bill led to an extensive 

21 rulemaking process of the TCEQ in 2014 to 

22 implement the language of House Bill 1079. 
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1 Numerous stakeholders were involved working with 

2 the Texas legislature on the language of House 

3 Bill 1079, and numerous opportunities for public 

4 participation were provided during the 

5 legislative process and also during the TCEQ 

6 rulemaking process. 

7 Over the last eight years the TCEQ and 

8 the Railroad Commission of Texas have completed 

9 extensive rulemaking procedures to implement the 

10 legislative acts and to modernize the state 

11 regulations which govern uranium mining, 

12 exploration, and production activities. 

13 Starting in 2007 the TCEQ had a two phase 

14 rulemaking process that lasted over three years. 

15 This constituted a substantial revision of the 

16 TCEQ rules and provided numerous opportunities 

17 for public comment. 

18 The Railroad Commission of Texas adopted 

19 revised rules in recent years that modernized the 

20 regulations governing the exploration of uranium 

21 mining in Texas. 

22 Texas has a long history of IRS mining, 
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1 and the industry has built up an extensive base 

2 of knowledge regarding ISR mining. While the 

3 TCEQ as asked for, discussed, and utilized the 

4 vast ISR mining knowledge that exists in Texas, 

5 the EPA has rarely asked the industry for 

6 information about ISR mining or engaged in 

7 meaningful discussions with the industry about 

8 ISR mining. 

9 That is especially true of the EPA's 

10 formulation process for the new Subpart to 40 CFR 

11 Part 192. 

12 Thank you for your time and for your 

13 consideration of these comments. 

14 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Charles 

15 Ragland? 

16 MR. RAGLAND: My name's Charles Ragland, 

17 last name is spelled R-A-G-L-A-N-D. I'm a 

18 property owner in Duval County, and I'm real 

19 concerned about what I'm reading on the window 

20 that's being proposed to be put on the back end 

21 of any uranium operations. 

22 As a property owner I'm concerned about 
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1 the fact that we won't have any control or know 

2 who's going to be going into our property. We 

3 won't have access, I guess, from that property. 

4 I don't see anything in it to clarify whether 

5 that property is going to be open, if we can 

6 utilize it for grazing, if we can utilize it for 

7 hunting, or if we can even utilize it for any 

8 potential future oil and gas leases. So I've got 

9 a great concern on that. 

10 From another aspect, as a real estate 

11 broker, I'm also concerned about that -- the 

12 effect that will happen and occur if that rule is 

13 imposed on marketing of land. If you've got that 

14 on a piece of property, who's going to want to 

15 buy that land? What are you going to be doing to 

16 future generations of property owners if they 

17 decide to sell their ranch? 

18 I think the rule is excessive. We have 

19 history here in Texas with the work that's been 

20 done by the operators and by TCEQ. They've got a 

21 good program in place, and I would very muchly 

22 encourage y'all to explore and utilize what -- 
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1 what we have in place right now in Texas. Thank 

2 you. 

3 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Ben Eshleman? 

4 MR. ESHLEMAN: Well that was close. 

5 (Laughter.) 

6 MR. BROZOWSKI: Sorry. 

7 MR. ESHLEMAN: It's okay. Hi. Ben 

8 Eshleman. I'll make it easy for you. Ben 

9 Eshleman. Nice to see you, sir. 

10 MR. BROZOWSKI: Same here. Thank you. 

11 And, again, my apologies. 

12 MR. ESHLEMAN: Oh, no problem at all. 

13 I'm Ben Eshleman. I'll spell it for you. 

14 E-S-H-L-E-M-A-N. And I'm coming to you as a 

15 property owner in Jim Hogg County. I’m not an 

16 expert in the uranium business, just a layman, 

17 but I do have some thoughts about property 

18 rights. 

19 Property owners in Texas own the land, 

20 water, and minerals. When a company wants to 

21 access land for mineral exploration or 

22 development, they must obtain permission from the 
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1 property owner which typically takes the form of 

2 a lease agreement that outlines conditions in 

3 exchange for rights to access. Conditions will 

4 include the term of the lease as well as payments 

5 to be made to the property owner. 

6 It is clear that the EPA has not 

7 considered the ramifications of extended lease 

8 periods that would be required if their proposal 

9 is approved. Longer leases will mean that I will 

10 not be able to use my land for purposes such as 

11 the gentleman from Duval County said, 

12 agricultural, livestock grazing, or even 

13 recreational hunting. This rule will bar me from 

14 getting my land back in use and many products for 

15 over 30 years. 

16 This proposed rule results in Texas 

17 property owners stuck in the middle of a 

18 crossfire. The EPA probably would respond to my 

19 concerns by getting my land back for over a 

20 quarter century by saying, well, don't lease your 

21 property, which is crazy. If we don't lease our 

22 surface, we -- we are essentially preventing our 
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1 mineral estate from being developed, which, 

2 again, seems like EPA is stealing the minerals 

3 away from the hard-working Texans like me and a 

4 lot of others in this room. 

5 If you ask me, I'm pretty certain that 

6 EPA's objective in doing this is to keep 

7 companies from mining in the U.S. and hide their 

8 objective to -- in an unworkable rule in the name 

9 of protecting groundwater for the children of our 

10 future. 

11 And speaking of groundwater, which is 

12 what EPA says this proposal is geared to protect, 

13 Texas landowners own the water under their land. 

14 Where these mining companies do their business is 

15 in locations where the water is not safe to drink 

16 even before any exploration, let alone mining 

17 habits. Thanks to Mother Nature, it's toxic. 

18 So, in actuality, mining companies are 

19 doing a great service to use and future 

20 generations by removing as much of the toxic 

21 material from the ground. 

22 And how much of Texas landowners' 
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1 precious water will EPA force these companies to 

2 waste to get toxic water back to the preexisting 

3 mining state? How far will the area and regional 

4 water table drop? We have water pumps in the -- 

5 in the ground today. If you push this water 

6 level down, I'm going to have to go out and buy a 

7 whole new set of -- a whole new set of materials. 

8 It sure seems -- it sure seems like the 

9 EPA is making a mistake here by claiming that 

10 they will protect water when, in fact, it would 

11 only result in wasting water. 

12 I did my homework on this. I tried to 

13 find on the EPA website a list of the uranium 

14 mining companies that have contaminated a public 

15 water supply; but after all my searching, I 

16 couldn't find such a list. 

17 It appears from my search in the state 

18 and federal agencies who regulate my uranium 

19 mining have publicly stated that there has not 

20 been one single, solitary documented case of any 

21 uranium mining companies contaminated a public 

22 water supply. 
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1 So thank you for coming to Texas to hear 

2 our factual concerns. And I hope this will help 

3 you realize that you need to drop this effort 

4 entirely or at least start the process all over, 

5 and this time get all the interested parties to 

6 the table first and foremost to figure if 

7 anything needs to be done about this. And if the 

8 facts point to a yes, then form a task group or a 

9 valid committee to help you get a defensible 

10 plan. 

11 Thank you very much. 

12 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. 

13 MR. LUTHIGER: You can do it. 

14 MR. BROZOWSKI: Peter Luthiger? 

15 (Laughter.) 

16 MR. LUTHIGER: My name is Peter Luthiger, 

17 spelled L-U-T-H-I-G-E-R. And I am Vice-President 

18 of Mestena Uranium, an in-situ uranium mining 

19 company operating in South Texas that will be 

20 severely impacted by this proposed rule. 

21 And I'll start with saying what he said. 

22 EPA is proposing this regulation because 
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1 they asserted it is to protect groundwater from 

2 potential future contamination and in the event 

3 that any future contamination would occur, would 

4 not burden the future generations of the public 

5 with paying for that remediation. 

6 And I'd like to start with the question 

7 that any reasonable person must ask from the 

8 onset is: Is there a condition that has occurred 

9 in the past or is the condition occurring now 

10 that requires attention in the first place? 

11 Within -- within the proposal EPA 

12 provided no documented evidence that would result 

13 in answering the above question in the 

14 affirmative. And it's for good reason that -- 

15 why they couldn't do that. Because they could 

16 not answer it in a yes. Not only could EPA not 

17 provide any specific example of an in-situ 

18 uranium operation contaminating a non-exempt 

19 portion of an aquifer, the EPA could only muster 

20 up a technical term such may increase, may 

21 result, may migrate, may occur, and may cause to 

22 defend or otherwise justify the need for the 
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1 revisions to 40 CFR 192. 

2 In stark contrast to EPA, the regulatory 

3 agencies charged with overseeing the EPA 

4 regulations applicable to the Uranium Recovery 

5 Operations in the United States have not 

6 hesitated to respond to the question raised 

7 above. 

8 TCEQ has publicly stated that there have 

9 been no documented cases of offsite groundwater 

10 contamination in South Texas in over 30 years of 

11 in-situ uranium mining at over 30 different 

12 sites. 

13 Similarly, the NRC acknowledged in a 2009 

14 report which states the monitoring data indicated 

15 no impacts attributed to the migration of 

16 impacted groundwater from the existing 

17 facilities. 

18 TCEQ reiterated to EPA the unblemished 

19 environmental protection success that the 

20 existing regulatory framing instituted by 

21 agreement states and the NRC has demonstrated by 

22 saying there has not been one instance of 
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1 documented off-site pollution of a USDW from in2 situ uranium mining activities. 

3 I found it quite telling how EPA was 

4 completely silent in -- in not using the 

5 opportunity of this proposed rulemaking to 

6 attempt to refute these factual statements made 

7 by -- made by TCEQ and NRC. 

8 TCEQ and NRC only have 30 years of data 

9 to support their statements. What this 

10 uncontrovertibly proves is that the existing 

11 regulatory process of baseline restoration goal 

12 development, permitting, extensive opportunities 

13 for stakeholder participation, and rigorous 

14 inspection programs provide more than ample 

15 protections to the public and the environment 

16 that ISR operations are protective of the 

17 environment while providing a valuable, clean 

18 energy source as well as economic benefits to 

19 rural communities not only in Texas but across 

20 the western United States as a whole. 

21 It is quite obvious to every reasonable 

22 person that EPA is trying to fix a problem that 
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1 has never existed, does not exist now, and which 

2 continues to be demonstrated in Texas and across 

3 the United States will not exist in the future. 

4 This is not how a reasonable government agency 

5 should operate. 

6 I mentioned above that EPA justifies 

7 their proposal with a lot of mays, and 

8 potentials, and coulds; but EPA did actually show 

9 some numbers in the economic impact document 

10 which I may add is a draft document. So your 

11 guess is as good as mine on any peer review done 

12 on that document. 

13 I'm going to focus on this document 

14 because EPA used Mestena Uranium as an example in 

15 the small-business impact section. After going 

16 through this draft document, it appears to me 

17 that even when EPA has the opportunity to use 

18 data, information, or numbers to actually try to 

19 build a case, they appear to pick the numbers -- 

20 or what I heard earlier, cherry pick the numbers 

21 that would make their case even more -- even 

22 though the numbers are neither appropriate nor 
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1 realistic. 

2 Specifically, EPA uses the annual 

3 domestic purchase uranium -- the domestic uranium 

4 purchase by power plants on the benefit side of 

5 the analysis which EPA says it was nine and a 

6 half million pounds. 

7 The correct value that should be used is 

8 what is actually produced by the ISR facilities. 

9 And according to the DOE, that number has never 

10 exceeded six million pounds in the last 20 years. 

11 The annual domestic production has actually been 

12 around four million pounds. 

13 (Timer ringing.) 

14 MR. LUTHIGER: Is that it? 

15 MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, sir. Do you want to 

16 conclude briefly? 

17 MR. LUTHIGER: I'll conclude these -- the 

18 rest of these will be in the written comments. 

19 In closing, EPA must rescind the proposed 

20 rule and then answer this question: In a 

21 truthful, factual, scientifically defensible and 

22 transparent manner, is there an actual problem? 
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1 And if the answer is no, adios amigos. If there 

2 -- for some reason the facts still come out with 

3 a potential for a yes, EPA needs to establish 

4 working group process and work in a truthful, 

5 factual, scientifically defensible, and 

6 transparent manner with all the engaged 

7 stakeholders that were already mentioned earlier. 

8 Thank you. 

9 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Harry 

10 Anthony? 

11 MR. ANTHONY: Thank you. My name is 

12 Harry Anthony. I represent Uranium Energy 

13 Corporation and also the Uranium Producers of 

14 America. 

15 I want to welcome you to South Texas, 

16 particularly Texas as well because we're the 

17 number one state -- energy state that this 

18 country has -- oil, gas. If you -- if you flew 

19 in, you probably saw our wind farms that surround 

20 this area; and we are the western capital -- 

21 western world capital of in-situ recovery. We 

22 have -- South Texas has about a 40-year history 
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1 of in-situ recovery. 

2 And in that period of time, as you know, 

3 there hasn't been a documented case where a 

4 public water well or a private water well has 

5 been harmed by this process. 

6 I think this rulemaking probably got the 

7 attention of EPA back in 2009 when the USGS 

8 published their now historical report about how 

9 South Texas aquifers have never been restored 

10 back to baseline. 

11 Last year there was an industry 

12 publication that was made available to EPA, which 

13 I don't see referenced in the rulemaking, where 

14 we -- where the information was reviewed, and, in 

15 fact, the industry has done an admirable job in 

16 restoring the groundwater. 

17 If you take a look at the primary 

18 drinking water standards, those six or seven that 

19 were listed of the 13 that Ms. Rosencrantz 

20 mentioned earlier on, every one is restored to 

21 baseline or better. Radium 226, selenium, 

22 arsenic. 
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1 One exception is uranium. Of course, 

2 we're in a uranium hosted aquifer, but -- but a 

3 lot of the projects in that study were restored 

4 to baseline or within a part or less. And this 

5 was technology that was done 20 years ago when 

6 the drinking water standard for uranium was 5 

7 parts per million. 

8 Recently -- within the last 10 years -- 

9 that standard has been reduced to 30 parts per 

10 billion. So, which pretty much puts most of the 

11 waters of South Texas off limits for drinking in 

12 these mine aquifers. 

13 These rules are kind of proposed -- 

14 they're -- they're set up so that the industry 

15 can basically not make any of the [inaudible] in 

16 establishing baseline because of the 95 percent 

17 criteria. I don't understand how you expect a 

18 sample taken over a two or three-year period of 

19 time is going to stay stationary for 95 percent 

20 confidence levels because there are humans 

21 involved in sampling. 

22 There are humans involved in analyzing 
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1 this. And we're talking about parts per 

2 trillion, parts per billion, so a slight little 

3 -- or if people actually put down the wrong 

4 location of the well as we found in Kingsville 

5 with I-11. That was certainly in the middle of 

6 an ore body, but that -- that has obtained a wide 

7 following. 

8 On the front end this is going to add 

9 probably an additional three years. To permit a 

10 uranium project in South Texas -- and maybe in 

11 Wyoming as well -- is from four to six years. 

12 And your rules -- proposed rules will probably 

13 add, in my estimation, another three years on 

14 that. So, from six to maybe nine years. 

15 I can probably permit a nuclear power 

16 plant a lot quicker than I can permit a water 

17 treatment plant. 

18 MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute, please. 

19 MR. ANTHONY: Yeah, I see that. 

20 Anyway, I ask for you to reconsider, 

21 shelve these rules, work with these other 

22 stakeholders that are here today, the industry, 
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1 in the primacy regulators in Texas and elsewhere 

2 to get the data that you so rightfully need to 

3 write some real good rules. 

4 So, with that I close my comments. 

5 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Michael 

6 Maxson? 

7 MR. MAXSON: My name is Michael Maxson, 

8 M-A-X-S-O-N. I'm the Operations Manager for 

9 Mestena Uranium, but I’m really here representing 

10 myself. I haven't run any of these comments 

11 through the company for their comments on it. 

12 One of it is this is fairly personal to 

13 me in that if these regulations go forth as 

14 presented, we're out of business. And it's 

15 personal because I've got several members in my 

16 family that are also in this business, a 

17 daughter, son-in-law up in Wyoming, and myself 

18 that would like to continue working. 

19 I'm not going to say a whole lot more 

20 about -- everybody's addressed their comments 

21 about the economics aren't really very good. 

22 Your baseline data stuff needs to get with the 
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1 companies and get real data on what's going on 

2 out there. 

3 This is not the way a scientific project 

4 should be -- be run. You should go get hard data 

5 and then take a look at it. 

6 And I think everybody in this room would 

7 be more than willing to supply data and work with 

8 you-all on this thing. So, the main thing here 

9 would be to suspend implementation of Part 192 

10 and then take a good look at what Texas is doing 

11 because TCEQ and the Railroad Commission actually 

12 are doing a fairly good job, and they have worked 

13 with industry and with the other stakeholders on 

14 putting together some good regulations. 

15 It's worked. It's worked for over 40 

16 years, and industry has worked well with -- I 

17 think with these agencies. And we haven't shot 

18 each other, or killed each other, or anything 

19 else. Right, Dale? 

20 But I -- I go back 46 years in this 

21 industry here in Texas. And when we first 

22 started playing with this stuff -- and this was 
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1 when sitting around the bar and discussing 

2 theories before we even put a well in the ground 

3 -- big companies involved went to the state and 

4 said we need some regulations. And they worked 

5 with the state to get the regulations, and 

6 they've been continuing working with the state 

7 and making comments and suggestions, and with the 

8 various state agencies. 

9 And, like Dale said, it's been through 

10 several different agencies, so it -- the industry 

11 has worked well with this, and they've done a 

12 good job. 

13 So the one thing I can come up to sum it 

14 all up is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's 

15 been working for 40 some years. There's been no 

16 occasion for any problems coming up with this, 

17 and Mother Nature does a good job on sequestering 

18 any contaminations in an ore zone. 

19 So that's all I have to say. 

20 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

21 MR. MAXSON: Yes. 

22 MR. BROZOWSKI: Mark Pelizza? 
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1 MR. PEAKE: George, this is a test for 

2 you. 

3 MR. BROZOWSKI: I'm sorry? 

4 MR. PEAKE: This is a test for you with 

5 the names. 

6 MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, it is. 

7 MR. PELIZZA: Thank you very much. My 

8 name is Mark Pelizza. For the record I am an 

9 independent consultant. I'm retired after 37 

10 years in the uranium business. All of my 

11 experience has been with in-situ recovery. 

12 MR. PEAKE: Could you spell your name for 

13 the record? 

14 MR. PELIZZA: P-E-L-I-Z-Z-A. 

15 MR. PEAKE: Thank you. 

16 MR. PELIZZA: I have spent most of my 

17 career working in Texas. I've been associated 

18 with about 20 in-situ projects in Texas, but I've 

19 also had experience working in New Mexico, 

20 probably as much experience dealing with in-situ 

21 recovery in New Mexico as anyone. And also, I've 

22 overseen a project in Wyoming. 
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1 I spoke to this group or to your -- your 

2 group several years ago. And without belaboring 

3 what has been said in the audience and without 

4 rereading my statement from the EPA record 

5 several years ago, I would note that some of the 

6 things are the same that I said that Texas had 

7 more ISR experience than all of the other states 

8 combined. 

9 I said that we didn't know of any legacy 

10 issues that existed. I said that we are highly 

11 regulated. I said that we have many sites that 

12 have either been restored on the stability mode. 

13 I accounted for 26 operations here in 

14 Texas. I accounted for 86 production areas; and 

15 70 of those production areas had been approved 

16 for restoration. So it's a big, big mountain of 

17 data. 

18 One of the things I have that I will 

19 leave for the record today or I can send it later 

20 on electronically is a map that TCEQ has prepared 

21 which shows all of the areas that have been mined 

22 in Texas, all of the exempted areas. It gives 
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1 the basic data, the depths, the formations, et 

2 cetera, and -- and what it does is it forms a 

3 visual, for what they've got in Austin in the 

4 public record. 

5 I've heard over the past that the public 

6 record is confusing. It's difficult to get 

7 through and -- and has a whole litany of 

8 problems. 

9 I have never been through the public 

10 record, the Class 3 inventory of data that exists 

11 in Austin. So to satisfy myself, I stopped in 

12 Austin yesterday afternoon to look at the 

13 inventory myself. Within two hours I was able to 

14 leaf through the data for essentially every ISR 

15 site that's ever been developed in the state. 

16 It's well organized. It's systematic. It's in 

17 two rooms, and on the wall is a prominent poster 

18 which gives an index of all the information 

19 that's available in the bookcases. So, there's 

20 really not an excuse not to look at the 

21 information. 

22 I will be providing a lot of it with 
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1 comments that I will be -- will be writing for 

2 the Uranium Producers of America. 

3 As has been said here, I don't know of 

4 any problems yet we have these new regulations. 

5 The regulations have ramifications. And I won't 

6 belabor the ramifications, but I think we've 

7 heard a few of them today. It's -- it's a real 

8 nightmare if one considers private property 

9 rights. 

10 Thirty years? Thirty -- this is sort of 

11 like a mortgage that when you get done with your 

12 mortgage, you have another 30 years. It just 

13 doesn't work. It's not practical, and we have to 

14 figure out something that works for the EPA, but 

15 it's not 30 years because nobody is going to want 

16 companies hanging around for 30 years when 

17 they're all done. 

18 Private property owners want to get back 

19 to their lives. They want to get back to 

20 ranching their land. They don't want to have a 

21 bunch of people running around their properties. 

22 The statistical analysis that's required, 
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1 I don't understand. Ninety-five percent -- I'm 

2 not sure if it's 95 percent of a well field if 

3 it's welled by well, every injector. Depending 

4 on the report you read, whether you read the rule 

5 or the -- 

6 MR. BROWSKI: One minute, please. 

7 MR. PELIZZA: -- or the preamble, or the 

8 technical reports, it's confusing. But this is 

9 for sure that if we continue to pump water to 

10 reach a statistical number, what we might end up 

11 with is waste. Restoration is the most 

12 consumptive portion of the ISR process, and if we 

13 keep restoring to restore it to a hypothetical 

14 number without considering water use, we may end 

15 up drying up the aquifer that we're trying to 

16 protect. 

17 So, with that I will close. I recommend 

18 that -- that EPA work with TCEQ, work with the 

19 industry. 

20 There's a workshop in -- in Denver every 

21 June. It's an ideal place to have a roundtable 

22 and vet thoughts with the rest of the uranium 
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1 community and the public at large. It's 

2 sponsored by NRC, so I know that you can -- you 

3 can find them. 

4 Thank you very much. 

5 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

6 MR. PELIZZA: You can have that for the 

7 record. 

8 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Jay Masterson. 

9 MS. MASTERSON: My name is Jay Masterson, 

10 M-A-S-T-E-R-S-O-N. I feel out of place because I 

11 have an easy name. 

12 Thank you very much for allowing us to 

13 come and speak. I feel very humbled by the 

14 quality of people who have come to give their 

15 input. My husband and I operate a mechanical 

16 integrity and a risk assessment business. We 

17 have done so for 15 years. 

18 My accent gives me away. I wasn't able 

19 to be born in Texas. I came to Texas 33 years 

20 ago. I worked for 16 years with the Coastal Bend 

21 Council of Governments. Policy development was 

22 one of my specialties when I worked for 21 years 
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1 in Washington. 

2 My concern is not as a technical expert. 

3 You-all have plenty of experts on all areas that 

4 you've already heard of. What I am primarily 

5 concerned about is the process of policy 

6 development. 

7 It has been my experience, especially in 

8 working in Texas, that it's useful to have a 

9 framework for what the people in the area already 

10 are doing. Right now you probably have heard 

11 from the Commerce Department Texas has an export 

12 of $289 billion. You came to the right place to 

13 talk about policy and regulations because these 

14 people know what they're doing. 

15 When I came from Washington, I was 

16 astounded at how much was already going on in the 

17 full spectrum of economic development. I spent 

18 six years of my time dealing with economic 

19 development and followed that through after my 

20 retirement. 

21 It's a complex process. I have a great 

22 deal of respect for what you're up against. You 
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1 have a whole spectrum of people pinging on you -- 

2 special interest groups providing this or that -- 

3 but that complex process cannot be subverted by 

4 good intentions. 

5 Data collection is actually very 

6 essential. Everything that I worked on in South 

7 Texas required that I get on-the-ground knowledge 

8 from the people from which I was asking their 

9 support and their cooperation to implement the 

10 policy. 

11 The unexplored negative effects on 

12 technical jobs and costs of restoration drive the 

13 need for an extraordinary effort to make sure 

14 that policy, when developed, does not have 

15 unnecessarily adverse effects nor have unintended 

16 consequences. 

17 It's very easy to use derivative and 

18 model data. Working in government as I did, it's 

19 very easy to come up with one of the universities 

20 coming in and doing this and this. Here's what 

21 could happen. Here's what that might happen. 

22 But there's no substitute for actual operator's 
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1 and state body's information. 

2 We have to all be aware that we have 

3 certain inherent biases. I was the first to 

4 admit that I have a bias toward private sector 

5 involvement. I have made my living as a private 

6 sector person. Even though I worked in 

7 government for 16 years, the bulk of my 45 years 

8 was primarily in private sector. 

9 I also recognized that people love the 

10 environment. People in Texas love the 

11 environment in a way that I was completely 

12 unprepared for when I came from Washington. 

13 Their love is expressed in working together. 

14 Whether it's air quality, water quality, 

15 or other things, working together has been the 

16 best way for Texans to preserve what they love 

17 and why they're here and at the same time be able 

18 to make a living. 

19 I won't attempt to go into the technical 

20 detail these people who have spoken so eloquently 

21 ahead of me. What I am aware of is that when I 

22 was trying to get the support of local people who 
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1 were doing some things they had never done 

2 before, was that I had to get as many 

3 participants from the full spectrum of the points 

4 of view regardless. 

5 I would recommend that you rescind these 

6 proposed regulations, obtain current data from 

7 the legislative and regulatory bodies of the 

8 states that are really doing it, like Texas. Get 

9 information directly from operators, both mining, 

10 refining, and recovery operators, the private 

11 property holders; and when you do all that, 

12 whatever you do, please increase the length of 

13 their comment period so that everybody can get a 

14 chance to digest all the many documents you have 

15 put together. 

16 Thank you very much for being allowed to 

17 be here. I respect everything that you're doing; 

18 and I hope that you will find in Texas, as I did, 

19 the best place to get the -- the successful 

20 outcome that you desire. 

21 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. David 

22 Cameron? 
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1 MS. MASTERSON: Do you have the comments 

2 from that mining organization? Do you have their 

3 comments? 

4 MR. PEAKE: We have what they provided. 

5 So -- 

6 MS. MASTERSON: Well, I just -- you look 

7 at it. You can have it. I don't want it if you 

8 need it. I'm fine to -- 

9 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: I'm not sure if you 

10 would like to put things in the docket 

11 electronically, that would be great. 

12 MS. MASTERSON: Great. Thank you. 

13 MR. PEAKE: And this is from -- this will 

14 help with the transcript. 

15 MS. MASTERSON: Yeah. 

16 MR. PEAKE: Okay. 

17 MS. MASTERSON: I read from that, and I 

18 made you two copies. 

19 MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 

20 MS. MASTERSON: And this is the data from 

21 the -- 

22 MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 
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1 MR. BROZOWSKI: Is there a David Cameron 

2 here? 

3 MR. PEAKE: Calderon. 

4 MR. BROZOWSKI: Caldwin. 

5 MR. PEAKE: Calderon. 

6 MR. BROZOWSKI: Speak up. 

7 MR. PEAKE: Is there a David Calderon 

8 here? Oh, you did -- you -- okay. All right. I 

9 just wanted to make sure you got your chance. 

10 MR. BROZOWSKI: As we have heard from all 

11 of our speakers, I will conclude this session of 

12 the afternoon public hearing. 

13 MR. PEAKE: Offer to see if anyone else 

14 hasn't had a chance to speak. 

15 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Or just is there anyone 

16 else -- 

17 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Anybody else? 

18 Before I conclude, will there be anybody else who 

19 would like to make a comment? 

20 (No response.) 

21 MR. BROZOWSKI: Seeing nobody jumping up 

22 on that then, we've heard from all the speakers, 
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1 and I will conclude this public hearing session. 

2 Thank you for coming. Thank you for 

3 participating. This hearing session is 

4 officially closed. 

5 We will have another session tonight in 

6 the same room at 6:00 p.m. And please submit 

7 your comments electronically to Regulations.gov. 

8 That's R-E-G-U-L-A-T-I-O-N-S dot G-O-V. And the 

9 document number is OAR, Office of Air and 

10 Radiation dash 2012 dash 0788. Again -- 

11 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: It's in the Preamble, 

12 too. 

13 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. And it's located 

14 in the Preamble to the Rule. 

15 Have a good afternoon. Have a safe drive 

16 home. Thank you again for coming. 

17 (Whereupon, the afternoon session was 

18 concluded at 2:46 o'clock p.m.) 

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 E V E N I N G S E S S I O N 

2 MR. BROZOWSKI: Good evening, everyone. 

3 My name is George Brozowski, and I'm the Regional 

4 Health Physicist from the United States 

5 Environmental Protection Agency, Region 6, 

6 Dallas. 

7 Thank you all for coming this evening. I 

8 will be presiding over the hearing this evening. 

9 And along with me on the panel will be Ingrid 

10 Rosencrantz and Tom Peake from the Office of 

11 Radiation and Indoor Air from our headquarters in 

12 D.C. 

13 Before getting into the hearing, again, 

14 want to remind the people that our bathrooms -- 

15 men's room is all the way down towards the right; 

16 women's bathroom is all the way down towards the 

17 left. 

18 In case of an emergency we will not take 

19 the elevators. We will take the stairways either 

20 on the right or the left, walk our way down 

21 towards the first floor and then make our way out 

22 towards the exits here. So let's please keep 
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1 that in mind then. 

2 Having said all that and clearing up any 

3 housekeeping here, this hearing is now in 

4 session. 

5 We are here today to listen and receive 

6 your comments on EPA's Proposed Revisions to 

7 Health and Environmental Protection Standards for 

8 Uranium and Thorium Mill Tailings, also known as 

9 40 CFR Part 192. 

10 EPA is proposing to revise this rule by 

11 adding an additional Subpart F that's to 

12 explicitly address groundwater protection at 

13 uranium in-situ recovery operations. 

14 EPA announced this proposed rule in the 

15 Federal Register on January the 26th, 2015. The 

16 comment period started on January the 26th, 2015, 

17 and it was originally supposed to end on April 

18 27th, 2015, but has been extended to May 27th, 

19 2015, in an upcoming Federal Register notice. 

20 In a moment Ingrid will explain in more 

21 detail what the proposed in the notice, but 

22 before I turn it over to Ingrid, let me explain a 
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1 bit about how today's hearing works. 

2 We already had one hearing this afternoon 

3 from 1:00 to 4:00; and this is our second hearing 

4 today, beginning at -- you know, tonight at 6:00 

5 o'clock. 

6 If you have not checked in at the 

7 registration desk in the back of the room, even 

8 if you're not planning to speak, please -- please 

9 check in today. 

10 Like we did this afternoon, I will call 

11 the scheduled speakers to the podium. When it's 

12 your time to speak, please state your name, along 

13 with spelling your last name for the record. 

14 Your comments will be transcribed and included in 

15 the record of comments of the Proposed Rule. 

16 In order to ensure everyone has an 

17 opportunity to speak and to ensure fairness, 

18 we'll limit the testimony to five minutes. We 

19 will signal you when you have one minute left 

20 with our gorgeous device over here on the desk 

21 here. And when five minutes have passed, I will 

22 ask you to complete your testimony. 
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1 After you finish your testimony, members 

2 of the panel may ask clarifying questions. We 

3 are not here today to answer questions about the 

4 Proposed Rule. If you have any questions about 

5 the process, please talk to us at the end of the 

6 hearing. 

7 If you have written copies of your 

8 testimony or supporting documentation, please 

9 give a copy to us at the end of the hearing, or 

10 please leave it in the back at the registration 

11 table. This will be very helpful as we prepare 

12 the transcript. 

13 If you have additional comments you would 

14 like to make, you can submit them in writing. 

15 Comments must be received by 5:00 p.m. on May 

16 27th, 2015. 

17 Let me assure you that the Environmental 

18 Protection Agency gives just as much 

19 consideration to comments we receive in writing 

20 as we do in comments we receive in public 

21 hearings like the one we're having tonight. 

22 The instructions for submitting comments 
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1 are included in the fact sheet back at the 

2 registration table. And you can pick up a copy 

3 at your leisure. 

4 With that, let me now turn it over to 

5 Ingrid who will now summarize the Proposed Rule. 

6 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you, George. 

7 Hi, everybody. Thanks for coming today. 

8 We appreciate your engagement with this proposal. 

9 As George has said, we're here to hear your 

10 comments on our proposed revisions to Health and 

11 Environmental Protection Standards for Uranium 

12 and Thorium Mill Tailings, also known as 40 CFR 

13 192. 

14 We're proposing to revise this rule by 

15 adding new -- a new subpart, Subpart F, that 

16 explicitly addresses groundwater protection, 

17 restoration, and stability at in-situ recovery 

18 operations. 

19 Before I go into the major provisions of 

20 that rule, I'd like to, again, remind folks that 

21 we are interested in also getting any written 

22 comments you may have. If you could please 
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1 submit those to the docket for this rule, you can 

2 find that docket at regulations.gov and submit 

3 electronically. The Docket Number is OAR-2012-

4 0788. 

5 And details on how to submit your 

6 comments are actually in the Preamble to the 

7 proposal as well. 

8 MR. PEAKE: And the Fact Sheet. 

9 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: And the Fact Sheet that 

10 has been made available at the back of the room. 

11 So, any written comments, we would love 

12 to get your comments. Thanks. 

13 Okay. The major provisions of the 

14 proposal -- I'll go through these fairly quickly. 

15 First off, we're specifying the minimum 13 

16 constituents for groundwater protection standards 

17 must be met. The list includes arsenic, barium, 

18 cadmium, chromium, lead, mercury, selenium, 

19 silver, nitrate as nitrogen, molybdenum, combined 

20 radium 226 and radium 228, total radium and gross 

21 alpha particle activity excluding radon and 

22 uranium. 
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1 We're also specifying monitoring 

2 requirements for the different phases of the 

3 operation. These -- these phases include pre4 operational phase, the operational, restoration, 

5 stability, and long-term stability. In addition, 

6 we have proposed requirements for corrective 

7 action where necessary. 

8 We -- as George has mentioned, we 

9 announced this proposal in the Federal Register 

10 on January 26th of this year. The comment period 

11 started then, and it ends on May 27th. Again, we 

12 would appreciate having your written comments 

13 submitted electronically via regulations.gov. 

14 I think that's it for me. I'll turn it 

15 back over to you, George. Thank you. 

16 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. Thank you Ingrid. 

17 Having said all that, let's call up our 

18 first speaker for tonight. Dick Messbarger? 

19 Thank you. Thank you very much. Have a 

20 seat. Please state your name and please spell 

21 your last name for us. 

22 MR. MESSBARGER: Thank you. My name is 
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1 Dick Messbarger, M-E-S-S-B-A-R-G-E-R. And like 

2 one of your -- your first speaker this morning, 

3 we had an early morning flight out of Washington, 

4 so I had to write down notes, I'm afraid --

5 getting up at 3:30 which is 2:30 your time, and 

6 my body clock 2:30 time. 

7 Anyway, I have an interesting background 

8 and experience with in-situ mining that goes back 

9 to the 1970's as a newspaper reporter. And we 

10 did a story on the in-situ mining by Union 

11 Carbide in Jim Hogg County. And that was pretty 

12 revolutionary for us because I was in Kleberg 

13 County which is oil and gas country. And we 

14 didn't even know that there was uranium in the 

15 area. 

16 And it was a -- it was a good primer, 

17 gave us a good idea, gave me a good idea of 

18 exactly what happened in -- in in-situ mining. 

19 And that was in the mid '70's. 

20 And then in the early '80's a company 

21 decided to open a mine just south of Kingsville 

22 where I live -- southeast. And it turns out it's 
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1 just a couple of miles from where I live. 

2 So I had an interesting perspective 

3 unlike a lot of people that -- that have concerns 

4 -- and we all did with the idea because it was 

5 unknown; but I've been able to monitor and watch 

6 all the way through the 30 plus years of the 

7 operation of the Kingsville Dome Mine. I've 

8 spent a lot of time out there. 

9 I have been a member of the Kingsville 

10 Industrial Foundation since the mid '70's. And 

11 it was the Kingsville Industrial Foundation that 

12 -- their focus is on retaining and recruiting 

13 basic industrial jobs. So this was an industry 

14 that was coming, and so we were very interested. 

15 What kind of jobs they're going to 

16 create, what kind of -- you know, is there going 

17 to be a problem? 

18 So what we did, we hired experts at the 

19 university -- the Texas A&M University to do an 

20 analysis on it. And we became so engaged, we 

21 actually had party status during the permitting 

22 process with the Texas Water Commission. And so 
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1 I have been with the Industrial Foundation ever 

2 since. So I have sort of a responsibility to 

3 monitor what's going on, plus the fact I'm a 

4 neighbor. And my neighbors draw water from the 

5 same aquifer where URI mines uranium. 

6 A good friend of mine lives 200 yards 

7 southeast of the Kingsville Dome Mine. And he 

8 gets his water checked all the time. 

9 And the truth is there has been no 

10 negative impact that I've been able to find with 

11 in-situ mining in the United States. There have 

12 been some questions about when mines are 

13 completed and bringing them back to base level 

14 and this and that; but if you look at the history 

15 of it, it's got an extremely impressive history 

16 on restoration. 

17 So, I've worked with state regulators. 

18 I've been monitoring that operation. Then a 

19 couple of years ago I got more engaged with the 

20 EPA because I talked to the Region 6 Director of 

21 the SBA. And the reason I did was because we had 

22 a number of small businesses that came to me. 
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1 And I -- I work in industrial development. 

2 And they said we're being impacted by the 

3 fact that these mines, the uranium mines, aren't 

4 doing as much business. They're -- they're 

5 backing off. 

6 And in doing a little research, we found 

7 out that there are some onerous EPA rules and 

8 regulations -- I'm -- I'm not judging. I'm just 

9 saying the permitting process today, six, seven, 

10 eight years. It's very difficult to get 

11 permitted to do a mine. 

12 So, anyway, these businesses came to me. 

13 MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute, please. 

14 MR. MESSBARGER: I saw that. 

15 So, anyway, that's the reason why I -- 

16 and then I ended up having conversation with Sam 

17 Coleman and a number of the staff members trying 

18 to understand how we can work together to keep 

19 the jobs but at the same time, keep the 

20 environment clean. 

21 And I'm a strong believer in what's being 

22 done in the uranium mining industry with in-situ 
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1 mining is clean, and it also produces good jobs. 

2 Thank you. 

3 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

4 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Thank you. 

5 MR. BROZOWSKI: Teresa Carrillo? 

6 MS. CARRILLO: I feel like I'm in the 

7 witness box for the electric chairs. 

8 MR. PEAKE: Just the witness box. 

9 MS. CARRILLO: Witness box. 

10 MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes. 

11 MS. CARRILLO: My name is Teresa 

12 Carrillo. The last name is C-A-R-R-I-L-L-O. 

13 My husband and I and our children have 

14 lived in Duval County for several years. My 

15 husband is from Duval County, generations of 

16 people from Duval County. 

17 Our source of our water is drinking -- 

18 our drinking water is groundwater. Uranium 

19 mining happens in the vicinity, not far away in 

20 Brooks County, Jim Hogg County, and throughout 

21 Duval County. 

22 I am glad the previous individual is 
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1 confident in the system, but I'm also glad that 

2 EPA is expressing an interest in this new 

3 rulemaking. I think it's extremely important 

4 because when there's an error in this kind of 

5 operation, the error is extremely problematic. 

6 It cannot be fixed. 

7 Once drinking water is contaminated with 

8 heavy metals and radioactive metals, your 

9 drinking water is shot. And if you feed your 

10 cattle and you feed your children, and you 

11 breastfeed your children, then you're concerned 

12 about that drinking water. And that drinking 

13 water has to be something that you feel like I 

14 can give my baby this water and there's no 

15 problem. 

16 But people in Jim Hogg County have 

17 experienced problems; and people in Duval County 

18 have experienced problems. And it's not funny, 

19 and it's not a joke. 

20 And while I am delighted that individuals 

21 have had jobs and make good salaries, and had a 

22 livelihood from working in this industry, that's 
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1 not to say that other people's livelihoods, jobs, 

2 or health should be sacrificed for the economic 

3 benefit of others. We have to work in tandem. 

4 It has to be something that the economic 

5 development can't create a negative situation so 

6 that people can't live out there anymore, or 

7 drink water out there anymore, or all their water 

8 has to be hauled in by some little truck, which 

9 is very, very hard especially if you have cows 

10 you have to feed and you have goats, and you have 

11 chickens. I mean that's a problem. 

12 So, I'm delighted that EPA has examined 

13 this and is looking at strengthening the 

14 rulemaking. It's that serious of a situation 

15 that you need to. You need to because once the 

16 groundwater is ruined, it's ruined. And the 

17 restoration is -- I don't know, but I think it's 

18 a myth that it can be restored. 

19 So, thank you very much. 

20 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. I can't 

21 pronounce the first name here, but is there a Mr. 

22 or Mrs. Irving? 
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1 MS. ROSENCRANTZ: Or Irwin? 

2 MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes. 

3 MR. PEAKE: Blame it on his (inaudible) 

4 handwriting. 

5 MR. BROZOWSKI: Well, yes. 

6 What is your first name, sir? 

7 MR. IRWIN: Raulie. 

8 MR. BROZOWSKI: Okay. I'll blame my -- 

9 I'll blame my partner back there. 

10 MR. IRWIN: Yes, sir, my name is Rawlie 

11 Irwin. It's I-R-W-I-N. I am President of the 

12 Goliad County Groundwater Conservation District. 

13 And we would certainly like to thank you 

14 for being here tonight, for making this trip down 

15 here. We sent one to your -- a representative to 

16 your Washington, D.C., hearings. I don't know if 

17 you folks were there, but later on you'll hear 

18 from our County Judge, but we have divided the 

19 topics up so as not to be redundant to you and 

20 belabor different -- the same topic as each one -

21 - you know, for each one of us. 

22 We -- as the Groundwater District and 
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1 the people of Goliad County, we applaud your 

2 rules that you're making. We applaud you for 

3 taking notice of it and making these rules; and 

4 we hope that they all get to be proposed to a 

5 fixed rule of what you've got here. 

6 I want to address your -- your monitoring 

7 after the operations take place, your long-term 

8 and short-term monitorings after that. This is 

9 something that we certainly like to see you do -- 

10 extend these out to 30 years. We have been 

11 adamant about this in the short period of time 

12 we're not covered. 

13 But the thing that needs to be determined 

14 -- and maybe you can come up with a set method to 

15 do that -- is the rate of flow of the aquifer and 

16 the water in the aquifer because during our 

17 experience with this and the experts that we've 

18 listened to, you could come up with as many 

19 different opinions on the rate of flow of the 

20 aquifer as there are people in this room. 

21 Everybody had a different version, all the way 

22 from 3 feet to 50 feet a year. 
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1 And there needs to be a set formula, a 

2 test, or procedure to determine that rate of 

3 flow. And then from that your years of 

4 monitoring should be related to the rate of flow 

5 of the aquifer because we've experienced this 

6 through all the eight years that we've been 

7 associated with this. And this is just something 

8 that needs to be set down in a pat way and 

9 something that can be determined. And perhaps 

10 you can come up with a formula and a procedure 

11 for doing that. 

12 So we thank you for coming. We applaud 

13 your rules, and we certainly appreciate you 

14 making all this -- your trip all the way to 

15 Corpus Christi, Texas. Thank you. 

16 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Pat Calhoun? 

17 MR. CALHOUN: Good afternoon. My name is 

18 Pat Calhoun. I'm a County Judge in Goliad 

19 County. And, like Raulie, I would also like to 

20 really thank the EPA's efforts in doing this 

21 because at least we've taken the first steps. We 

22 think we need to do a little bit more on 
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1 protection of our groundwater, but -- but you've 

2 done yeoman's work, but it's not done yet, and I 

3 -- I encourage you to keep going with this and 

4 listening to the -- the comments that the folks 

5 have to say because groundwater is our life. 

6 Our county is primarily an agricultural 

7 and historical tourism county. That's our 

8 lifeblood. We're a small county. We're less 

9 than 7,500 in the county. 

10 Agriculture based, primarily in 

11 livestock. There's -- there's a few farmers but 

12 primarily in livestock. A lot of wildlife, so 

13 hunting and fishing. And, of course, the 

14 historical tourism are our mainstay. So people 

15 coming to visit and -- and see some of the 

16 tourist things. 

17 Eagle Ford Shale, everybody's heard of 

18 the Eagle Ford Shale. We've got lots of oil and 

19 gas and all of that. Well, that's one county 

20 north of us. We don't have any of that. We've 

21 got gas. We don't have any -- any of the oil. 

22 So, therefore, we don't have any of the play with 
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1 that. So we don't have income from that, but we 

2 get all of the bad side in the form of torn up 

3 roads and things like that on the support side of 

4 the Eagle Ford. 

5 So there are people that make a little 

6 bit of money with disposal wells, saltwater 

7 disposal that's part of the Eagle Ford operation. 

8 But that's primarily the economy of -- of our 

9 county. 

10 I would like to tell you a -- a tale of 

11 what's happened just as an illustrative point of 

12 some of the things that have happened. And this 

13 is all empirical data, just through observation. 

14 When the exploration started with the 

15 mining -- with the exploration for the uranium, 

16 there were a lot of bore holes that were bored 

17 where they thought that -- that the uranium might 

18 be. Bored through all four water stands that we 

19 have in the -- in the Evangeline Aquifer, which 

20 is our sub aquifer of the Gulf Coast Aquifer. 

21 Now, these bore holes are non-cased, and 

22 they're also supposed to be plugged within 48 
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1 hours. We found several that were months old 

2 from what we could -- from what we could tell and 

3 what we had seen through observations that 

4 weren't. 

5 So you had one water sand draining into 

6 other water sands. You had a lot of 

7 contamination that was going on. 

8 There are two State agencies that are 

9 supposed to be monitoring our water, but in the 

10 exploration phase, it falls under our Railroad 

11 Commission. Under the mining phase it falls 

12 under the EPA. 

13 But we had several citizens around the 

14 exploration area whose water wells became 

15 contaminated with some sort of an iron oxide. It 

16 was plugging their -- their water wells. It was 

17 -- their water softeners, the screens in them 

18 were getting plugged up with this red slime. So 

19 there was a lot of problem with that. 

20 Don't necessarily know where it came 

21 from, but we feel that there was some 

22 contamination that occurred either because bore 
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1 holes were left open or equipment wasn't cleaned 

2 between, but something introduced the oxygen in 

3 there in order to create the red slime and the 

4 problems that we were having. And these were 

5 water wells that were all around the exploration 

6 area, not just down dip but all around it. 

7 There were over a hundred violations with 

8 the -- we've got one minute. Okay. There were 

9 over a hundred violations of -- that the Railroad 

10 Commission had found. Problem was that we 

11 gerrymandered some of our -- the mining 

12 boundaries after that. 

13 Now, it went through a contested case 

14 hearing. When it went to the contested case 

15 hearing, the Administrative Law Judge and the 

16 Office of Public Interest Counsel recommended not 

17 doing the mining until more research had been 

18 done on the aquifer where we were. 

19 One of the Commissioners was not even 

20 there but already had a prepared statement that 

21 the Commission said, no, we're going to go ahead 

22 and do the mining. So it was already a done 
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1 deal. Not good. Not good. 

2 Last, how is the EPA planning on dealing 

3 with the monitoring going forward? I love the 

4 one-year prior because I really believe that what 

5 happened here was we created our own contaminated 

6 aquifer in order to get the mining permit. 

7 And we're getting down to 10 seconds or 

8 so. 

9 (Timer ringing.) 

10 MR. CALHOUN: So the one-year pre-op is 

11 -- I guess I'm done unless you want me to finish 

12 my sentence? 

13 MR. BROZOWSKI: Please. 

14 MR. CALHOUN: Okay. The one-year pre-op 

15 mining I think is a fantastic idea. I think the 

16 EPA needs to think about how the state agencies 

17 are going to work with you on clean water, 

18 whether it's going to continue to be a rubber 

19 stamp or whether it's going to be something else. 

20 Thank you very much. 

21 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. Peter 

22 Luthiger? 
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1 MR. LUTHIGER: I get to go again. 

2 Again, I'm Peter Luthiger. I'm Vice3 President of Mestena Uranium. And that's spelled 

4 L-U-T-H-I-G-E-R. And I appreciate EPA giving me 

5 a couple minutes just to complete my previous 

6 comments I had when I ran out of time from that 

7 calibrated timing machine there. 

8 I was talking about the economic impact 

9 analysis at the time, and I mentioned that within 

10 the analysis EPA utilized a value of 9.5 million 

11 pounds of uranium, domestic uranium that's 

12 purchased by power plants for use. And that 

13 number was utilized in their evaluation when it's 

14 really not the appropriate number to use. 

15 DOE's domestic production has not been 

16 more than 6 million pounds in the last 20 years. 

17 And domestic production is actually around 4 to 4 

18 and a half million pounds from all sources. 

19 That's ISR, conventional milling, and alternate 

20 feed sources. 

21 So the ISR production is the appropriate 

22 value to use because that's the production 
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1 activity that actually creates what EPA claims 

2 are the could cause or may migrate situations. 

3 It's the actual activity at the location. 

4 So not sure why EPA used a value that's 9 

5 and a half million compared to about 4 to 4 and a 

6 half million in value for production. 

7 And that number is important because it's 

8 tied to how much revenue is generated by the 

9 industry. And that's also tied to the sale 

10 price. 

11 EPA used the value of $57 a pound in 

12 their economic analysis, which as I mentioned 

13 earlier was dated November 2014, which is just 

14 prior -- a couple months prior to publishing 

15 these proposed rules. The current price -- 

16 actually for the last year -- has been roughly 35 

17 to 40 -- or $40 a pound. And no market analyst 

18 is projecting a price of $57 anytime soon. So, 

19 once again, it's strange why a value of $57 was 

20 used rather than something that could have been 

21 updated just two months prior to publishing these 

22 proposed rules which is more reflective of actual 
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1 price. 

2 So when you combine the 9 and a half 

3 million and 57, that's a big value compared to 4 

4 and a half million to 35 to $40 for the total 

5 revenue. 

6 Regarding the Mestena Uranium case that 

7 was provided in the impact on small businesses, 

8 the cost-benefit ratio that was utilized in a -- 

9 a -- or a trend line or a trigger of 3 percent. 

10 If you're above 3 percent, you have a significant 

11 impact. 

12 When EPA utilized the -- all I can say it 

13 had to be a guess because they had no idea what 

14 the production was, but that guess was 500,000 

15 pounds production at a $57 a pound sale price. 

16 Their end result in either low, average, or high 

17 case that was in the analysis showed a -- a ratio 

18 of less than the 3 percent. So it passed the 

19 test of not being significant. 

20 When the actual values are used, which 

21 are less than the 500,000, and looking at the 

22 regular market price, impact actually is quite 
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1 significant. 

2 Just as a reminder, there has not been 

3 one documented case of contamination of a USDW in 

4 over 30 years by -- at over 30 ISR sites in the 

5 United States. 

6 And I go back to my final comment about 

7 what should we do. We request that EPA rescind 

8 this proposed rule and then answer the question: 

9 Is there really a problem now or in the past that 

10 needs to be addressed? And if there is -- and 

11 let's get engaged in a working group process with 

12 all the stakeholders involved, and we can work 

13 through this and come up with something. 

14 I do want to say that I do agree 

15 wholeheartedly with EPA's proposed typographical 

16 corrections. 

17 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

18 MR. PEAKE: Question. 

19 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

20 MR. PEAKE: Will you be providing, for 

21 the record, written comments, the numbers that 

22 you think that we should be using? 
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1 MR. LUTHIGER: More detail will be 

2 provided in the written comments. 

3 MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 

4 MR. LUTHIGER: Yes. 

5 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you again. 

6 Is there anybody else in the audience who 

7 has not had a chance to make comment, or is there 

8 anybody who would like to make additional 

9 comments before we close this hearing? 

10 (Person approaches.) 

11 MR. BROZOWSKI: Once again, please, you 

12 know, state your name and spell your last name 

13 again, please. 

14 MR. IRWIN: Yes, sir. My name is Raulie 

15 Irwin, I-R-W-I-N is the last name. And there 

16 again, I'm President of Goliad County Groundwater 

17 Conservation District. 

18 As I stated to you earlier, we've been 

19 involved with this eight, going on nine years, on 

20 a mining permit -- the application that took 

21 place in our county, and as Judge Calhoun 

22 mentioned to you a while ago about the 
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1 contaminated water wells that turned blood red. 

2 This was similar to a red tide in our 

3 Gulf if you're familiar with that. It was kind 

4 of a bloom that took place. We had it analyzed, 

5 and it was an iron oxide that was taking place in 

6 the aquifer water at about 200 feet deep. 

7 We had this sampled several times, and 

8 then we had eight wells in a complete circle, 

9 both up dip and down dip of the bore holes that 

10 were taking place that were running red. The 

11 mining company absolutely stated it was not their 

12 fault and that nothing that they were doing would 

13 have caused this. 

14 It was the funniest thing about it though 

15 that within 90 days after they ceased drilling 

16 their exploratory bore holes, those wells all 

17 began to run clear water, and they're still 

18 running clear water today; and the people are 

19 back -- back to drinking their water. 

20 So, we think that this pre-operational 

21 sampling that you're talking about is very 

22 important and would help probably ward off some 
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1 kind of problems like this but that we are not 

2 understanding specifically how you intend to do 

3 this or how many times the water would be sampled 

4 over what period of time. We assume a year. 

5 That would certainly help. And a number of water 

6 samplings would be taken during that period of 

7 time, perhaps one every month or either quarter, 

8 but they should be sampled more than one time. 

9 At a geological conference I spoke with 

10 several geologists about this water and also 

11 about arsenic turning up in the water. And we 

12 were advised that one sampling was not adequate 

13 enough to determine just where this was coming 

14 from or how acute it was or anything else, that 

15 it all needed to be sampled two or three times to 

16 have enough adequate data to really process 

17 something and determine what was happening. 

18 So for that reason we certainly encourage 

19 you. 

20 There is no fund for restoring a water 

21 well that might lie 100 feet outside of the 

22 mining area. There's absolutely none. 
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1 We requested -- we requested this from 

2 the mining company just as they have to put up a 

3 bond, we understand that when they their permit. 

4 We requested a fund to restore water wells that 

5 might come up outside of the area. We requested 

6 either a bond or a cash deposit in order to do 

7 this. The answer was absolutely no. 

8 At one time we were offered an amount of 

9 money provided the mining company was the only 

10 one to determine if the water well was 

11 contaminated by their actions and how much money 

12 that they would be allowed to, you know, reclaim 

13 for water well restoration. The mining company 

14 would control this completely. Of course, this 

15 was not satisfactory to us. 

16 This is just -- in our area there were 11 

17 domestic livestock wells -- these are family 

18 wells -- that were peripheral to the mining area 

19 and all located within a half a mile of where the 

20 mining was to take place. And there's no 

21 protection for any of those wells if they become 

22 contaminated. 
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1 Thank you. Appreciate it. 

2 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you again. Anyone 

3 else? 

4 (Indicating.) 

5 MR. BROZOWSKI: Yes, ma'am, come on up. 

6 MS. NORRELL: My name is Carroll -- 

7 MR. BROZOWAKI: Please have a seat, and 

8 speak into the microphone, please. 

9 MS. NORRELL: My name is Carroll, Carroll 

10 Norrell. Norrell is spelled N-O-R-R-E-L-L. And 

11 Carrol is C-A-R-R-O-L -- a lot of R's and L's. 

12 Not my plan to speak to speak with you 

13 tonight, but I just wanted to say thank you also 

14 for the efforts that are being made. 

15 There's -- there -- I think what I have 

16 heard here tonight are two different 

17 perspectives. The gentleman who spoke earlier 

18 with his distinguishing tie that denounced the 

19 uranium industry spoke a great deal about the 

20 economy and the economic impact. We are speaking 

21 with you about impact on groundwater. There is a 

22 significant difference. 
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1 Economic impact is extremely important, 

2 and no one is asking anyone to quit an industry; 

3 but you cannot do economic benefit by destroying 

4 the most precious of resources that we have. 

5 And so that's what I want to bring to 

6 your attention in my short moment with you here 

7 today is. 

8 The group that's here with you today from 

9 Goliad has spoken some very significant facts 

10 that are in record that have been brought out in 

11 multiple places and with you previously. They 

12 are available to you, and I think you have 

13 reviewed some of that. 

14 These are facts. And the impact on 

15 groundwater is extremely important. And if -- if 

16 we have to weigh between economic impact and 

17 groundwater, I think groundwater issue needs to 

18 come to the surface. 

19 So thank for your time. 

20 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you. 

21 MS. SCHEURICH: Well, Peter has inspired 

22 me to speak a second time today. 
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1 My name is Venice Scheurich, S-C-H-E-U-R2 I-C-H. 

3 When I spoke earlier today, as you know, 

4 I was speaking on behalf of the Coastal Bend 

5 Sierra Club. My message is, of course, the same 

6 except I would like to extend that a little bit 

7 now to simply the statistical practice. 

8 What I didn't get to mention earlier was 

9 that as someone who's worked with statistics for 

10 most of my professional career, I was just 

11 delighted to see that you are recommended that in 

12 these procedures, the 2009 statistical analysis 

13 of groundwater monitoring be followed. 

14 I have looked at that quite thoroughly 

15 because I'm interested in that field, and I -- I 

16 think that it is flexible enough -- flexible 

17 enough so that industry can find something that's 

18 statistically valid which will accomplish their 

19 goals without great economic stress or any 

20 economic stress in most cases; but it will 

21 prevent errors that have been made for many years 

22 in Texas regulations, not because anybody is bad 
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1 or people are poor scientists; it's simply that 

2 there's too much to look at and our scientists 

3 are expected to be also statisticians. They have 

4 a lot to do. 

5 I was delighted that two of the people 

6 from TCEQ spoke earlier about how the records are 

7 being improved and maybe some more work will be 

8 done on the rules in Texas. 

9 One of the things that I think is a 

10 unifying concept is it's -- statistics doesn't 

11 choose sides, as everybody in the room knows. 

12 It's got to be -- if it's going to be valid --

13 there is a lot of flexibility within invalidity, 

14 but it -- certain things are wrong, and we just 

15 have to stop those wrong things. And it's good 

16 for industry. It's good for NGOs like the Sierra 

17 Club, and certainly it's good for regulators to 

18 have that certainty. So I do like the guidance. 

19 And one of the quotes that I found -- 

20 I've talked earlier and many times before on that 

21 non-random location of baseline wells. So a 

22 quote that I found in the guidance says the best 
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1 protection against an unrepresentative sample is 

2 to select measurements from the population at 

3 random. Many of you here think I'm a broken 

4 record, but that was so astounding to me when I 

5 first heard that companies could choose in that 

6 production area exactly where they wanted the 

7 locations to be. 

8 It would be so easy to use one of any two 

9 or three methods to get a random sample of 

10 locations. And that would be a good beginning, a 

11 very good beginning. 

12 I was reading an earlier EPA document on 

13 guidance for choosing a sampling design for 

14 environmental data collection. And here's 

15 another good quote which is so true. I don't 

16 think anybody in the room would disagree with it. 

17 If a sampling design results in the 

18 collection of a non-representative sample even 

19 the highest quality for laboratory analysis 

20 cannot compensate for lack of good data. 

21 So, I just hope -- 

22 MR. BROZOWSKI: One minute. 
128 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

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1 MS. SCHEURICH: -- that as you move 

2 forward, you will keep in mind some of the 

3 statements that you've heard from people who have 

4 experienced this -- Duval County, Goliad County, 

5 Kleberg County, and also please, for the sake of 

6 someone who taught statistics for 30 years, you 

7 know, keep in mind good valid statistical 

8 practice. Thank you. 

9 MR. PEAKE: Just one second for the 

10 people who are taking the records, you referenced 

11 a 2009 document, what is it? Could you state the 

12 title of that? 

13 MS. SCHEURICH: Well -- 

14 MR. PEAKE: Is it -- 

15 MS. SCHEURICH: -- the one --the title, I 

16 don't know if I got it all, but I quickly jotted 

17 down Statistical Analysis of Groundwater 

18 Monitoring Data at RCRA facilities. 

19 MR. PEAKE: Okay. Thank you. 

20 MS. SCHEURICH: That's one you know. I 

21 think it's in your -- 

22 MR. PEAKE: Yes, I just wanted to get it 
129 

OLENDER REPORTING, INC. 

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1 for the record. 

2 MR. BROZOWSKI: Thank you very much. 

3 If there are no further comments, I 

4 conclude this public hearing tonight. We thank 

5 you very much for coming out, and we ask you to 

6 drive home safely and carefully. Thank you. 

7 [Whereupon, at 6:52 p.m., the public 

8 hearing was concluded.] 

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