### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS** 

**+ + + + + PUBLIC MEETING** 

**+ + + + + WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 2013** 

**+ + + + + The Public Meeting met in Room**  **8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman,**  **Meeting Facilitator, presiding. PRESENT**  **DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public Solutions, Inc.**  **JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy BETSY KOHL, Department of Energy**  **CHARLES LLENZA, Department of Energy ALSO PRESENT**  **ROBERT ASDAL, Hydraulic Institute ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical**  **Manufacturers Association ROB BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation**  **DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company MARK BUBLITZ, The New York Blower Company**  **KITT BUTLER, Advanced Energy GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development &**  **Diagnostics JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand**  **TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation Council**  **NEAL ELLIOTT, American Council for an Energy-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **Efficient Economy RANDAL FERMAN, Ekwestrel Corp**  **GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor Owned Utilities**  **AARON GOTHAM, Greenheck MARK HANDZEL, Xylem, Inc**  **DAN HARTLEIN, Twin City Fan Companies, Ltd. JOHN HAZEN WHITE, Jr., Taco, Inc.**  **SARAH HOWELL, Grundfos ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company**  **MICHAEL IVANOVICH, Air Movement and Control Association International**  **SANAEE IYAMA, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **TIMOTHY KUSKI, Greenheck CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant Consulting**  **ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **JON LEMMOND, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute**  **BRUCE LUNG, Alliance to Save Energy JANE LUXTON, Pepper Hamilton LLP**  **JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness Project**  **DAVID MCKINSTRY, Colfax Fluid Handling RODNEY MRKVICKA, Smith & Loveless, Inc.**  **KEN NAPOLITANO, Xylem, Inc. LAURA PETRILLO-GROH, Air-conditioning,**  **Heating, and Refrigeration Institute CALLIE REIS, Navigant Consulting**  **MICHAEL RIVEST, Navigant Consulting GREGG ROMANYSHYN, Hydraulic Institute**  **ALLISON ROSE, Artemis Strategies GREG ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute**  **STEVE SCHMITZ, Grundfos ARNOLD SDANO, Pentair**  **WADE SMITH, Air movement and Control Association International**  **LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance**  **MARK STEVENS, Air Movement and Control Association International** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **JOHN STEVENS-GARMON GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos**  **DANIEL TROMBLEY, American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy**  **BOB VALBRACHT, Loren Cook Company MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council**  **DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting, Inc. SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National**  **Laboratory ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory DAVID WINIARSKI, Pacific Northwest National**  **Laboratory**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S Call to Order and Opening Remarks 12**  **Doug Brookman Facilitator**  **Welcoming Remarks 12 John Cymbalsky**  **Program Manager for Appliance Standards and**  **Building Codes Department of Energy**  **Introductions 14 Agenda Review 17**  **Doug Brookman Facilitator**  **Questions and Comments 22 Brief Summary Remarks by Participants 22**  **Bob Asdal 22 Hydraulic Institute** 

**Albert Huber 27 President**  **Patterson Pump Company Gary Fernstrom 31**  **California Investor Owned Utilities Joanna Mauer 32**  **Appliance Standards Awareness Project Introduction and Rulemaking Process 34**  **Overview Charles Llenza**  **Department of Energy Questions and Comments 47** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED)**

**Legislative History and 55 Coverage**  **Charles Llenza Department of Energy**  **Items 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 61 Questions and Comments 61**  **Items 1-4 and 1-5 72 Questions and Comments 74**  **Item 1-6 79 Questions and Comments 79**  **Pump Styles 81 Questions and Comments 82**  **Item 1-7 84 Questions and Comments 84**  **Items 1-7, 1-8, 1-9 90 Questions and Comments 90**  **Item 1-10 95 Questions and Comments 95**  **Item 1-11 96 Questions and Comments 96**  **Item 1-12 101 Questions and Comments 101** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Item 1-15 112**  **Questions and Comments 112 Item 1-13 120**  **Alison Williams 120 Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory Questions and Comments 121**  **Item 1-14 132 Questions and Comments**  **Items 1-23, 1-24, 1-25 133 Questions and Comments 134**  **Items 1-26 and 1-27 137 Questions and Comments 138**  **Items 1-16 and 1-17 139 Questions and Comments 142**  **Items 1-18 and 1-19 150 Questions and Comments 150**  **Regulatory Regimes and Metrics 162 Questions and Comments 164**  **Items 1-20 and 1-21 165 Questions and Comments 165** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Item 1-22 173**  **Questions and Comments 173 Efficiency Metrics 178, 181**  **Questions and Comments 180, 185 Items 1-29, 1-30, 1-31 187**  **Questions and Comments 187 Item 1-32 and Item 1-33 190**  **Questions and Comments 190 Item 1-35 200**  **Questions and Comments 201 Potential Implementation Method 201**  **Questions and Comments 204 Items 1-37, 1-38, 1-39 210**  **Questions and Comments 210 Items 1-40, 1-41, 1-42 212**  **Questions and Comments 212 Test Procedure 216**  **Sarah Widder Pacific Northwest National**  **Laboratory**

**Item 1-43 123**

**Questions and Comments 123**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Items 1-44 and 1-45 226**  **Pump, Motor, VSD 227 Questions and Comments 229**  **Test Procedure Accuracy and 230 Repeatability**  **Item 1-47 232 Questions and Comments 232**  **Item 1-48 234 Questions and Comments 234**  **Item 1-49 236 Questions and Comments 237**  **Item 1-50 239 Questions and Comments 240**  **Rulemaking Analyses Market and Technology Assessment**  **Alison Williams 243 Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory Items 3-1, 3-2, 3-3 243**  **Questions and Comments 246 Items 3-4, 3-5, 3-6, 3-7 248**  **Questions and Comments 251 Items 3-8, 3-9 259**  **Questions and Comments 260**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Item 3-10 263**  **Questions and Comments 263 Items 3-11, 3-12, 3-13 265**  **Questions and Comments 265 Items 5-2, 5-3, 5-4 272**  **Questions and Comments 275 Items 5-5, 5-6, 5-7 290**  **Questions and Comments 293 Items 5-14, 5-15, 5-16 297**  **Questions and Comments 298 Screening Analysis**  **Item 4-1 312 Questions and Comments 313**  **Engineering Analysis Items 5-1 and 5-8 315**  **Daniel Weintraub 315, 326, 331 Navigant Consulting**  **Questions and Comments 318, 329 Items 5-9, 5-10, 5-11 341**  **Questions and Comments 346 Item 5-12 349**  **Questions and Comments 350 Manufacturer Impact Analysis**  **Item 12-1, 12-2, 12-A 352 Questions and Comments 357** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Mark-Ups Analysis/Energy Use Analysis 359**  **Sarah Widder Pacific Northwest National**  **Laboratory Items 6-1, 6-2, 6-3 359**  **Questions and Comments 363 Items 6-4, 6-5 368**  **Questions and Comments 368 Items 7-1, 7-2, 7-3, 7-4, 7-5 372**  **Items 7-6, 7-7, 7-8, 7-9 388 Questions and Comments 376**  **Life-Cycle Cost and Payback 390 Period Analysis**  **Alison Williams Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory**

**Items 8-1, 8-2, 8-3, 8-4, 8-5 390 and 8-6**  **Questions and Comments 495 Shipments Analysis 399**  **Items 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 399 Questions and comments**  **NOPR Analyses 402**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) Closing Remarks 410**  **Charles Llenza Department of Energy** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **9:07 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,** 

### 4 **everyone. Welcome.** 

### 5 **This is the U.S. Department of** 

### 6 **Energy's public meeting on Energy Conservation** 

### 7 **Standards for commercial and industrial pumps.** 

### 8 **Today is Wednesday, February 20th, 2013, here** 

### 9 **at the Department of Energy, the Forrestal** 

### 10 **Building, in Washington, D.C.** 

### 11 **My name is Doug Brookman from** 

### 12 **Public Solutions in Baltimore.** 

### 13 **Good to see you here this morning.** 

### 14 **Thanks for being here on time. We have a full** 

### 15 **day ahead of us.** 

### 16 **We are going to start this morning** 

### 17 **with welcoming remarks from John Cymbalsky.** 

### 18 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug.** 

### 19 **I am John Cymbalsky. I am the** 

### 20 **Program Manager for Appliance Standards and** 

### 21 **Building Codes.** 

### 22 **I want to be the first to welcome**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 you here to our framework meeting on pumps.**  

### 2 **I note in the room we have a lot of** 

### 3 **first-timers to the regulatory process. So,** 

### 4 **hopefully, this isn't too scary an experience.** 

### 5 **We are going to try to take things slow. We** 

### 6 **have a lot of material to cover. Much of it** 

### 7 **is, in my opinion, a little dense, but let's** 

### 8 **take our time and get through it.** 

### 9 **I also want to plant a little seed,** 

### 10 **prime the pump, however you want to say it,** 

### 11 **but we have a meeting next Tuesday, so a week** 

### 12 **from yesterday, for the new Advisory Committee** 

### 13 **that we formed here at the Department. It** 

### 14 **would be nice if a few of the pumps guys** 

### 15 **showed up, guys or gals, whichever it might** 

### 16 **be, to the meeting. I think pumps might be an** 

### 17 **area to explore for a negotiated rulemaking,** 

### 18 **and the ASRAC Committee will be tackling** 

### 19 **issues in terms of forming working groups to** 

### 20 **do negotiated rulemakings. We definitely** 

### 21 **think pumps might be a product to explore in** 

### 22 **that frame of mind.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 So, with that, let me send it back**  

### 2 **to Doug, and let's have a productive meeting.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **It is our tradition here to start** 

### 5 **with doing introductions around the room, and** 

### 6 **it gives you a chance, also, to get in the** 

### 7 **habit of turning these microphones on and off.** 

### 8 **So, I would like to start to my** 

### 9 **immediate left. If you would say your name** 

### 10 **and organizational affiliation, and we will** 

### 11 **just proceed around the table here. Good job.** 

### 12 **MR. HANDZEL: I'm Mark Handzel. I** 

### 13 **am with Xylem, Incorporated.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. SCHMITZ: Good morning.** 

### 16 **Steve Schmitz with Grundfos.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 18 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 19 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano** 

### 20 **with Xylem, Incorporated.** 

### 21 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Patterson** 

### 22 **Pump Company.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE.**  

### 2 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance** 

### 3 **Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 4 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 5 **National Electrical Manufacturers Association.** 

### 6 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,** 

### 7 **representing the California Investor Owned** 

### 8 **Utilities, which would be PG&E, the Southern** 

### 9 **California Edison Company, San Diego Gas and** 

### 10 **Electric, and the Southern California Gas** 

### 11 **Company.** 

### 12 **MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest** 

### 13 **Power and Conservation Council.** 

### 14 **MR. ASDAL: Good morning.** 

### 15 **Bob Asdal, Executive Director, from** 

### 16 **the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 17 **MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural** 

### 18 **Resources Defense Council.** 

### 19 **MR. LUNG: Bruce Lung, Alliance to** 

### 20 **Save Energy.** 

### 21 **MS. KOHL: Elizabeth Kohl,** 

### 22 **Department of Energy General Counsel's Office.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, the**  

### 2 **Project Manager for the rulemaking.** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 4 **DOE.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand.** 

### 6 **MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub,** 

### 7 **Navigant Consulting, Inc.** 

### 8 **MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific** 

### 9 **Northwest National Laboratory.** 

### 10 **MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,** 

### 11 **Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist,** 

### 13 **Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 14 **MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant** 

### 15 **Consulting.** 

### 16 **MR. WINIARSKI: David Winiarski,** 

### 17 **Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: We are going to do** 

### 19 **the same thing in the back of the room. So,** 

### 20 **you can stand or sit, whatever, but speak** 

### 21 **loudly. And we will start in the front.** 

### 22 **(Laughter.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 The individuals at the table, we**  

### 2 **captured all that on the record. And since** 

### 3 **everybody is signed in, we will have a** 

### 4 **complete listing of who has attended. But, as** 

### 5 **a matter of courtesy, I will start with you.** 

### 6 **Please say your name and organizational** 

### 7 **affiliation.** 

### 8 **(Off-microphone introductions.)** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 10 **So, thanks to all of you again for** 

### 11 **being here and for getting us a good start on** 

### 12 **the day already.** 

### 13 **All of you received a packet of** 

### 14 **information as you checked in this morning,** 

### 15 **both an agenda and a packet of PowerPoint** 

### 16 **slides. I am going to run through the agenda** 

### 17 **briefly.** 

### 18 **Immediately following this agenda** 

### 19 **review, there is an opportunity for anybody** 

### 20 **that wishes to do so to make brief summary** 

### 21 **remarks about issues that are important to** 

### 22 **you, as a precursor, as an early start to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 content that will be presented in these**  

### 2 **PowerPoint slides as we go on through the day.** 

### 3 **And immediately following those** 

### 4 **summary remarks, we will have an introduction** 

### 5 **and rulemaking process overview by Charles** 

### 6 **Llenza, as reflected in your agenda, if you** 

### 7 **are looking at it.** 

### 8 **Going from there, the legislative** 

### 9 **history and scope of coverage.** 

### 10 **We will take a break mid-morning** 

### 11 **about 10:30 or so.** 

### 12 **Following that, regulatory regimes** 

### 13 **and metrics.** 

### 14 **Immediately following that, test** 

### 15 **procedure.** 

### 16 **We will have lunch round about** 

### 17 **noon, whenever we get there.** 

### 18 **And returning from lunch, market** 

### 19 **and technology assessment; screening analysis.** 

### 20 **Following that, engineering** 

### 21 **analysis; manufacturer impact analysis.** 

### 22 **Then, markups analysis; energy use**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 analysis.**  

### 2 **We will take a break mid-afternoon.** 

### 3 **And then, immediately following the** 

### 4 **break, life-cycle costs and payback period** 

### 5 **analysis; shipments analysis; national impact** 

### 6 **analysis.** 

### 7 **Finally, NOPR analyses.** 

### 8 **And then, closing out the** 

### 9 **afternoon, next steps and closing remarks.** 

### 10 **At the end of the day today, there** 

### 11 **is another opportunity for anybody that wants** 

### 12 **to do so to make comments, things that have** 

### 13 **been missed, things that haven't been covered** 

### 14 **efficiently or effectively. So, there is yet** 

### 15 **another opportunity to do that.** 

### 16 **Questions and comments on the** 

### 17 **agenda?** 

### 18 **(No response.)** 

### 19 **There is a lot of material here,** 

### 20 **and some of it is quite new to all of you. We** 

### 21 **are going to try our very best to make sure** 

### 22 **that everybody stays with us. And if you have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 questions as we are going along, please let me**  

### 2 **know and we will try to make sure they get** 

### 3 **answered as we go.** 

### 4 **I would ask for your consideration.** 

### 5 **As you see up here on the flipchart, please** 

### 6 **speak one at a time. Please say your name for** 

### 7 **the record each time you speak. You can say** 

### 8 **your organization or affiliation, if you want;** 

### 9 **just your name is probably sufficient.** 

### 10 **There will be a complete transcript** 

### 11 **of this meeting available, and we will talk** 

### 12 **about how you can access it.** 

### 13 **I am going to be recognizing** 

### 14 **individuals to speak by name as best I can.** 

### 15 **So, there will be a queue of individuals.** 

### 16 **I also wish to encourage comment** 

### 17 **back and forth between individuals. Sometimes** 

### 18 **that follow-on is very, very useful for the** 

### 19 **Department as it considers this information.** 

### 20 **If you would keep the focus here,** 

### 21 **please turn your cell phones on silent and** 

### 22 **limit sidebar conversations.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 Please make sure to turn these**  

### 2 **microphones on and off each time you speak.** 

### 3 **You will get in the habit shortly.** 

### 4 **Please be concise. Share the** 

### 5 **airtime. There is a lot of content here. We** 

### 6 **will try to make this meeting as effective and** 

### 7 **efficient as possible.** 

### 8 **And for webinar participants, how** 

### 9 **many do we have joining us via the web? Ten.** 

### 10 **Welcome to the webinar participants. The** 

### 11 **Department is trying very hard to make these** 

### 12 **meetings accessible and successful for the web** 

### 13 **participants.** 

### 14 **Please keep your telephones on** 

### 15 **mute, so we don't have feedback here in the** 

### 16 **room. And if you wish to speak, we are going** 

### 17 **to try to get you that chance. Please raise** 

### 18 **your hand via the software that you are** 

### 19 **working in, and our web mistress will pass a** 

### 20 **note to me, and we will insert you in the** 

### 21 **conversation.** 

### 22 **Questions and comments?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 MR. LLENZA: Also, I just want to**  

### 2 **add there are microphones in the back for the** 

### 3 **parties that are sitting in the back to come** 

### 4 **up to the microphone. We would appreciate** 

### 5 **using the microphones, so you can provide your** 

### 6 **comments --** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. LLENZA: -- and questions.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, let's** 

### 10 **begin. We have done the agenda review. We** 

### 11 **have reviewed norms.** 

### 12 **Let's start off, then, with brief** 

### 13 **summary remarks by anyone present who wishes** 

### 14 **to talk about issues that are important to him** 

### 15 **or her.** 

### 16 **Who would like to start? Bob?** 

### 17 **Please say your name for the record.** 

### 18 **MR. ASDAL: Thank you very much.** 

### 19 **Bob Asdal. I am Executive Director** 

### 20 **of the Hydraulic Institute. On behalf of our** 

### 21 **100 members, I would like to thank the** 

### 22 **Department for providing us this opportunity**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 to meet and discuss the framework document and**  

### 2 **beginning the process of a pump efficiency** 

### 3 **rulemaking.** 

### 4 **The Hydraulic Institute,** 

### 5 **established in 1917, represents the pump** 

### 6 **manufacturing industry in North America. We** 

### 7 **are a recognized authority with regard to** 

### 8 **pumps and pumping systems, and are an ANSI** 

### 9 **accredited standards-developing organization.** 

### 10 **HI represents a total of 105** 

### 11 **members that are pump manufacturers and the** 

### 12 **leading suppliers to the industry. We have** 

### 13 **historically led the pump industry in its** 

### 14 **approach to energy savings associated with** 

### 15 **pump systems optimization consistent with the** 

### 16 **strategic goals of the United States** 

### 17 **Department of Energy, and particularly the** 

### 18 **Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Group** 

### 19 **within the Department.** 

### 20 **And we come together today to share** 

### 21 **our members' collective knowledge with the** 

### 22 **Department and an effort to create a pump**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 efficiency rulemaking that considers the needs**  

### 2 **of all parties.** 

### 3 **In preparation for the meeting, we** 

### 4 **had read and, of course, discussed the** 

### 5 **framework document in great detail. The** 

### 6 **members have focused on several of the** 

### 7 **framework's key provisions and sections to** 

### 8 **discuss options, offer alternatives, and to** 

### 9 **work with the Department to deliver the** 

### 10 **greatest energy savings that are** 

### 11 **technologically-feasible and commercially- and** 

### 12 **economically-justified.** 

### 13 **So, today we appreciate the** 

### 14 **recognition by the Department of the** 

### 15 **complexity of this issue for the pump** 

### 16 **industry. And the members that are present** 

### 17 **here today, all of whom have introduced** 

### 18 **themselves, will explain our proposed product** 

### 19 **classifications to be covered, concepts** 

### 20 **associated with a globally-harmonized Minimum** 

### 21 **Efficiency Index, or MEI, as well as our** 

### 22 **recommendations for the adoption of a modified**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 version of existing ANSI HI test standards**  

### 2 **that could lead, also, to an HI-led labeling** 

### 3 **scheme and an HI-led pump test lab** 

### 4 **certification program.** 

### 5 **The greatest energy savings** 

### 6 **potential, as reported in my letters to the** 

### 7 **Department last year on July 11th and** 

### 8 **September 16th, deals with what we call an** 

### 9 **extended product approach with an Energy** 

### 10 **Efficiency Index, or EEI, for a combination of** 

### 11 **products, such as a pump, motor, variable** 

### 12 **speed drive, and control and feedback systems.** 

### 13 **And during today's meeting, we** 

### 14 **expect to have many questions for the** 

### 15 **Department and DOE consultants that will help** 

### 16 **us move through this rulemaking process. We** 

### 17 **will make every attempt to provide available** 

### 18 **supporting metrics and standards that will be** 

### 19 **discussed during today's session or by,** 

### 20 **certainly, the May 2nd deadline.** 

### 21 **So, we remain keenly aware of the** 

### 22 **members, of the needs of pump users in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 rulemaking process. We have established**  

### 2 **standards covering pumps, pump products,** 

### 3 **applications, installation, operation and** 

### 4 **maintenance, and applications in testing that** 

### 5 **are used across a wide selection of American** 

### 6 **industry and commercial establishments.** 

### 7 **HI has provided DOE with** 

### 8 **significant input on the Institute's standards** 

### 9 **as the basis of our recommendation. We have** 

### 10 **also partnered over the last year and a half** 

### 11 **with the leading energy-efficiency advocates,** 

### 12 **led by the Appliance Standards Awareness** 

### 13 **Project, in an effort to develop a consensus** 

### 14 **that best serves all parties.** 

### 15 **We would like to acknowledge the** 

### 16 **energy-efficiency advocates present today, and** 

### 17 **confirm that we stand ready to continue to** 

### 18 **jointly work through this complex rulemaking** 

### 19 **process that offers significant energy savings** 

### 20 **potential to the country. And the members and** 

### 21 **HI look forward to a productive day discussing** 

### 22 **this issue with the Department.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 3 **Additional brief remarks here at** 

### 4 **the outset?** 

### 5 **MR. HUBER: My name is Albert** 

### 6 **Huber. I am President of Patterson Pump** 

### 7 **Company, and a member of the Board of** 

### 8 **Directors of the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 9 **The Hydraulic Institute and its** 

### 10 **members are committed to improved energy usage** 

### 11 **by pumps and pump systems to deliver optimum** 

### 12 **energy savings through a balanced approach,** 

### 13 **considering the impact to the consumer, the** 

### 14 **industry, and the U.S. economy.** 

### 15 **As the Department of Energy is** 

### 16 **aware, HI has been actively working with the** 

### 17 **energy efficiency NGO community in this** 

### 18 **process. The Hydraulic Institute, along with** 

### 19 **the EE NGOs, recommended to the Department of** 

### 20 **Energy a two-pronged approach to reduce energy** 

### 21 **consumption in the United States related to** 

### 22 **pumping.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 These two approaches are extended**  

### 2 **product, which brings much greater reduction** 

### 3 **in energy usage than pump efficiency alone,** 

### 4 **and Minimum Efficiency Index, which eliminates** 

### 5 **from the marketplace inefficient pumps. They** 

### 6 **are not presented as options, but two methods** 

### 7 **which should be utilized together in order to** 

### 8 **achieve the desired goal of significant energy** 

### 9 **reduction.** 

### 10 **The following is a summary of our** 

### 11 **recommended scope:** 

### 12 **The Hydraulic Institute advocates** 

### 13 **the pursuit of pump products that will lead to** 

### 14 **the reduction of --** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Albert, pardon me.** 

### 16 **Pardon me for interrupting.** 

### 17 **MR. HUBER: Sure.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Your** 

### 19 **recommendations, your content, will it not be** 

### 20 **covered quite sufficiently by the PowerPoint** 

### 21 **slides that you have had a chance to look at?** 

### 22 **MR. HUBER: Well, not completely,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 no.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I am wanting** 

### 3 **to provide an opportunity for individuals to** 

### 4 **raise important issues and, also, I am wanting** 

### 5 **to make sure that the content fits in the flow** 

### 6 **of the meeting, because it will be easier for** 

### 7 **the Department and everyone else to comment** 

### 8 **and stay with it --** 

### 9 **MR. HUBER: Sure.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: -- if you follow my** 

### 11 **logic here.** 

### 12 **MR. HUBER: I follow.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: I don't want to** 

### 14 **diminish your capacity to speak about** 

### 15 **important issues. So, you tell me what you** 

### 16 **want to do here.** 

### 17 **MR. HUBER: Well, we can wait.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: You could wait?** 

### 19 **MR. HUBER: Sure.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I am eager --** 

### 21 **there is a lot of content here, and I want to** 

### 22 **get to it as efficiently as possible. But I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 don't want to diminish your capacity to say**  

### 2 **something --** 

### 3 **MR. HUBER: As long as we can say** 

### 4 **it at a later time, I am happy.** 

### 5 **MR. LLENZA: This is also Charles** 

### 6 **Llenza from the Department.** 

### 7 **You are more than welcome to enter** 

### 8 **statements into the record. So, if you have** 

### 9 **detailed statements, we are more than willing** 

### 10 **to take your statements.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: We can take that** 

### 12 **written statement and just enter it into the** 

### 13 **record.** 

### 14 **MR. HUBER: That's fine.** 

### 15 **MR. LLENZA: It goes into the** 

### 16 **docket.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I** 

### 18 **probably should have been more clear at the** 

### 19 **outset about the purpose of this introductory** 

### 20 **overview statement. But thank you for your** 

### 21 **consideration.** 

### 22 **MR. HUBER: Sure.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Other brief**  

### 2 **statements here at the outset?** 

### 3 **Gary Fernstrom.** 

### 4 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom** 

### 5 **speaking on behalf of the California Investor** 

### 6 **Owned Utilities.** 

### 7 **We would like to express our** 

### 8 **appreciation to the Hydraulic Institute for** 

### 9 **inviting us and the other advocates to work** 

### 10 **with them over the past year in preparation** 

### 11 **for this process.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 13 **Alex Boesenberg, do you wish to --** 

### 14 **I thought you said.** 

### 15 **Joanna Mauer.** 

### 16 **MS. MAUER: Thanks.** 

### 17 **First, we would like to thank DOE** 

### 18 **for the opportunity to participate in today's** 

### 19 **meeting. Efficiency standards for pumps** 

### 20 **represent a significant energy savings** 

### 21 **opportunity, and we are pleased to see that** 

### 22 **DOE has already put significant effort into**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 developing a foundation to conduct the**  

### 2 **analyses for this important rulemaking.** 

### 3 **Over the past year, efficiency** 

### 4 **advocates, including ASAP, ACEEE, Alliance to** 

### 5 **Save Energy, Earth Justice, NEEA, NRDC, and** 

### 6 **PG&E, have been working with HI to try to work** 

### 7 **towards a consensus recommendation regarding** 

### 8 **pump efficiency standards.** 

### 9 **As we have indicated to DOE, our** 

### 10 **discussions have focused on clean water,** 

### 11 **commodity-type pumps. And we generally agree** 

### 12 **with HI's recommended scope of coverage.** 

### 13 **However, here at the outset, we** 

### 14 **wanted to highlight two additional pump types** 

### 15 **that we think merit consideration. The first** 

### 16 **is the category that DOE has referred to as** 

### 17 **double-suction pumps. Our understanding is** 

### 18 **that these are typically used for clean water** 

### 19 **applications and are commodity-type pumps, and** 

### 20 **may, therefore, be good candidates for** 

### 21 **coverage.** 

### 22 **The second category is circulator**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 pumps, including fractional horsepower**  

### 2 **circulators. As PG&E will explain in more** 

### 3 **detail, we believe that there is a significant** 

### 4 **energy savings opportunity in establishing** 

### 5 **standards for circulators both in terms of** 

### 6 **per-unit savings as well as national energy** 

### 7 **savings.** 

### 8 **Finally, we are pleased to see that** 

### 9 **DOE is considering ways to capture additional** 

### 10 **energy savings by including categories of** 

### 11 **pumps sold with motors and/or VSDs. I think a** 

### 12 **goal that we all share is to increase the** 

### 13 **market penetration of pumps sold with VSDs,** 

### 14 **which has the potential to achieve very large** 

### 15 **energy savings.** 

### 16 **As we will explain in more detail** 

### 17 **later on, we believe that one of the potential** 

### 18 **regulatory options presented in the framework** 

### 19 **document, Option 3, may provide a mechanism to** 

### 20 **help achieve the goal of greater market** 

### 21 **penetration of pumps sold with VSDs.** 

### 22 **We look forward to participating in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 today's public meeting and to working with DOE**  

### 2 **and continuing to work with HI as this** 

### 3 **rulemaking moves forward.** 

### 4 **Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments here** 

### 6 **at the outset?** 

### 7 **Albert, I am looking at you. Do** 

### 8 **you wish to read that into the record? Okay.** 

### 9 **Okay.** 

### 10 **Then, let's proceed, then, with the** 

### 11 **content and to Charles. These PowerPoint** 

### 12 **slides, we will be referring to these** 

### 13 **specifically as we go through the day, and you** 

### 14 **will get a chance to see both what we have** 

### 15 **covered and what lies ahead.** 

### 16 **Charles Llenza.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, I welcome** 

### 18 **you to the meeting here at the Department of** 

### 19 **Energy.** 

### 20 **Basically, the purpose of our** 

### 21 **framework document public meeting is to** 

### 22 **present our preliminary analytical approach of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 what we think the rulemaking should encompass**  

### 2 **and, also, to inform the interested parties of** 

### 3 **the beginning of the rulemaking and the** 

### 4 **process.** 

### 5 **It also provides a forum for** 

### 6 **discussion here at the Department, and it** 

### 7 **provides a process for which the stakeholders** 

### 8 **can provide comments to the Department of** 

### 9 **Energy.** 

### 10 **So, we encourage everybody here to** 

### 11 **submit data, information, your comments. And** 

### 12 **so, one of the important things you see here** 

### 13 **are these little boxes in green. These are** 

### 14 **the items that the Department is most** 

### 15 **interested in receiving comments on.** 

### 16 **So, through the presentation, we** 

### 17 **will highlight the discussion of these comment** 

### 18 **boxes. There is a comprehensive list of** 

### 19 **questions in your framework document. We have** 

### 20 **not provided them all in this presentation.** 

### 21 **So there are additional questions in the** 

### 22 **framework document. Please do not forget to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 answer those that we don't necessarily**  

### 2 **specifically highlight at this meeting today.** 

### 3 **These item numbers correspond to** 

### 4 **those in the framework document, and we** 

### 5 **welcome your comments to those specific issues** 

### 6 **as we go through this presentation.** 

### 7 **We have a specific format we would** 

### 8 **like to have parties to use while submitting** 

### 9 **comments. Docket and RIN number would be** 

### 10 **mostly appreciated. We have set up an email** 

### 11 **address for you to provide comments to the** 

### 12 **Department. It is the preferred method of** 

### 13 **delivery for these comments.** 

### 14 **In addition to that, we were made** 

### 15 **aware of the complexity and time elements** 

### 16 **involved in reviewing what the Department** 

### 17 **provided in the framework. So, we proactively** 

### 18 **extended the comment period to May 2nd, 2013,** 

### 19 **which is a considerable amount of time.** 

### 20 **Hopefully, that would be sufficient time for** 

### 21 **all parties to make their comments known to** 

### 22 **the Department.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 The rulemaking process. The Energy**  

### 2 **Policy and Conservation Act, EPCA, which is** 

### 3 **Public Law 94-163, established the Energy** 

### 4 **Conservation Program here at the Department of** 

### 5 **Energy for certain commercial and industrial** 

### 6 **equipment.** 

### 7 **Part C of Title III of EPCA** 

### 8 **includes pumps as covered equipment and** 

### 9 **authorizes DOE to issue standards, test** 

### 10 **procedures, and labeling requirements, 42 USC** 

### 11 **6311(1)(A). That is just a reference to where** 

### 12 **the Code is, if anybody is interested.** 

### 13 **In addition to that, the primary** 

### 14 **direction that the Department of Energy** 

### 15 **receives via the Energy Policy and** 

### 16 **Conservation Act, EPCA, is to develop new and** 

### 17 **amended standards designed to achieve the** 

### 18 **maximum improvement in energy efficiency that** 

### 19 **is technologically-feasible and economically** 

### 20 **justified. That is an important key element** 

### 21 **here in terms of the development of standards** 

### 22 **for the Department, and we think we have a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 good rulemaking process which provides a**  

### 2 **schedule and time for analysis to do this.** 

### 3 **Okay. EPCA also directed the** 

### 4 **Department of Energy to consider seven factors** 

### 5 **for the analysis. As you can see, the EPCA** 

### 6 **requirements are in the first column, and the** 

### 7 **corresponding DOE analysis is on the** 

### 8 **corresponding column.** 

### 9 **Our process and schedule is** 

### 10 **developed in such a way, so that we can make** 

### 11 **the maximum use of developing the DOE analysis** 

### 12 **over the three-year time period for the** 

### 13 **rulemaking.** 

### 14 **So, here is our standard test** 

### 15 **procedure and standard rulemaking timelines.** 

### 16 **As you can see, we are at the framework** 

### 17 **meeting, which is this first chevron. We** 

### 18 **will, then, continue through a preliminary** 

### 19 **analysis period. Then there is the NOPR** 

### 20 **analysis period which is Notice of Proposed** 

### 21 **Rulemaking, which is a draft of the rule that** 

### 22 **we are proposing. And finally we have a final**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 rule, hopefully, within a three-year**  

### 2 **timeframe.** 

### 3 **Subsequently, we have a test** 

### 4 **procedure process that is intimately linked to** 

### 5 **our Energy Conservation Standard process, and** 

### 6 **that usually is about half the timeframe** 

### 7 **involved in developing. We have some** 

### 8 **flexibility on the movement of how soon or how** 

### 9 **fast we would like to get the test procedures** 

### 10 **for the Department out, but what I want to** 

### 11 **point out about these chevrons is the test** 

### 12 **procedures moves within the availability** 

### 13 **timeframe of the rulemaking because there are** 

### 14 **some requirements that we are mandated to** 

### 15 **accomplish in terms of having that test** 

### 16 **procedure finalized and published in The** 

### 17 **Federal Register in order for the Department** 

### 18 **to make use of that test procedure to** 

### 19 **establish Energy Conservation Standards.** 

### 20 **I have provided a link at the** 

### 21 **bottom here for everybody to go to, if those** 

### 22 **parties that are interested in more detail on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 our rulemaking process. So, this is just a**  

### 2 **quick-and-dirty summary of our process** 

### 3 **timeframe.** 

### 4 **I am going to go through a little** 

### 5 **bit of what each one of these steps involves** 

### 6 **today. I am not going to focus on the test** 

### 7 **procedure necessarily, but mostly on the** 

### 8 **Energy Conservation Standard.** 

### 9 **So, today the framework provides an** 

### 10 **overview of the rulemaking process. We have,** 

### 11 **hopefully, provided you a good boilerplate as** 

### 12 **to what we see or where we see this rulemaking** 

### 13 **going for the Department of Energy. We** 

### 14 **provided some of our technical thoughts for** 

### 15 **the industry to review, and we also inviting** 

### 16 **comments on the proposed approach that the** 

### 17 **Department has issued. That was executed in** 

### 18 **The Federal Register framework notice that we** 

### 19 **published February 1st, 2013.** 

### 20 **So, that is this process now. The** 

### 21 **next step in the energy conservation process** 

### 22 **would be the preliminary analysis. The**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 preliminary analysis, basically, would take**  

### 2 **the comments from the framework public** 

### 3 **meeting. We review those comments and we** 

### 4 **provide response in the documents that are** 

### 5 **provided at the preliminary analysis.** 

### 6 **Each one of these steps would** 

### 7 **involve public meetings and issuing Federal** 

### 8 **Register documents with not only the comments** 

### 9 **to any of the previous questions that the** 

### 10 **stakeholders may have or assertions or** 

### 11 **technical direction that they wished the** 

### 12 **Department to follow, but also would provide** 

### 13 **further details on the analysis process the** 

### 14 **Department uses throughout, based on the seven** 

### 15 **factors, if you all remember that first slide** 

### 16 **I showed you back on EPCA.** 

### 17 **So, as you can see, the listing of** 

### 18 **analysis that is provided at the preliminary** 

### 19 **here, it is basically engineering analysis,** 

### 20 **manufacturer and user markups, energy use** 

### 21 **profiles, consumer life-cycle costs, LCC and** 

### 22 **payback periods. We look at shipments, and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 one of the important things to note about the**  

### 2 **shipments is we need to get the shipments** 

### 3 **right because the shipments determine how much** 

### 4 **of everything we are going to account for, and** 

### 5 **that is going to weigh-in in terms of what** 

### 6 **savings the Department thinks we can achieve.** 

### 7 **There is additional analysis,** 

### 8 **national energy savings, and the NPV, Consumer** 

### 9 **Net Present Value. And then, there are some** 

### 10 **manufacturer impacts that we also try to** 

### 11 **provide.** 

### 12 **So, that is the preliminary** 

### 13 **analysis. This is in a nutshell. There is a** 

### 14 **little bit more meat to this, but not to** 

### 15 **panic. Everything gets published in a** 

### 16 **document, and we go back to having a public** 

### 17 **meeting and having this similar process go** 

### 18 **through for the preliminary analysis.** 

### 19 **The Department will, then, get** 

### 20 **comments back from the preliminary analysis** 

### 21 **and preliminary TSD, which will be provided in** 

### 22 **the preliminary analysis stage, and we will**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 continue fine-tuning the analysis the**  

### 2 **Department has presented at the preliminary** 

### 3 **analysis stage. And we will also weigh-in** 

### 4 **those impacts.** 

### 5 **We will, then, go back and propose** 

### 6 **standard levels for public comment, which** 

### 7 **basically it is like a draft rule at that** 

### 8 **point. And it will be published in The** 

### 9 **Federal Register and submitted for comments.** 

### 10 **We will have another meeting about that** 

### 11 **particular phase where the stakeholders and** 

### 12 **everybody will have time to come back to the** 

### 13 **Department and tell us if we are on track.** 

### 14 **And the goal, of course, of the** 

### 15 **Department is to have a final rule which would** 

### 16 **encompass any of the comments received for the** 

### 17 **draft notice, the Notice of Proposed** 

### 18 **Rulemaking. We will revise the analysis to** 

### 19 **make sure that the impacts to the standards** 

### 20 **and the way the impacts for the final rule are** 

### 21 **taken into account, based on stakeholders'** 

### 22 **comments. And, based on the DOE analysis and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 our economic analysis, we will be providing**  

### 2 **standards that to be adopted in the final** 

### 3 **rule.** 

### 4 **Of course, as you can see, we have** 

### 5 **plenty of time, and we are looking at a** 

### 6 **planned spring 2016 issuance of the rule.** 

### 7 **Okay. So, I am just giving you an** 

### 8 **outline here of what the DOE plan is. Here is** 

### 9 **the schedule. This is the important slide.** 

### 10 **We had a timeframe to accomplish** 

### 11 **this. We would like to do this in three** 

### 12 **years. Sooner would be better, but I know how** 

### 13 **this process goes and the complexity of things** 

### 14 **not necessary lends itself to this.** 

### 15 **So we are at the framework public** 

### 16 **meeting. As you can see, that is the first** 

### 17 **box on the bottom of the slide. And that is** 

### 18 **after publishing the framework document. So,** 

### 19 **the next part of the process will be the test** 

### 20 **procedure NOPR document. And as you can see,** 

### 21 **this is not going to happen overnight. We are** 

### 22 **going to go back and look at your comments**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 that are provided by May 2nd, and we will be**  

### 2 **doing our review and analyses in addition to** 

### 3 **the test procedure requirements. The DOE Team** 

### 4 **will, then, be providing a Notice of Proposed** 

### 5 **Rulemaking based on not only what we have** 

### 6 **investigated through the rulemaking process,** 

### 7 **but, hopefully, comments that the stakeholders** 

### 8 **have provided us on testing and other** 

### 9 **requirements.** 

### 10 **This will be followed by a public** 

### 11 **meeting, as you can see. That is planned for** 

### 12 **fall of 2014.** 

### 13 **Subsequently, after the test** 

### 14 **procedure NOPR public meeting, we would also** 

### 15 **have close to a preliminary analysis document** 

### 16 **set up, hopefully, before the test procedure** 

### 17 **public meeting.** 

### 18 **That would follow, by it’s** 

### 19 **publication in The Federal Register and a** 

### 20 **public meeting subsequently. That is the** 

### 21 **third box on the bottom of the slide.** 

### 22 **And then, both are in a parallel**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 process. They are separate rulemakings, but**  

### 2 **uniquely tied-in processes here, the test** 

### 3 **procedure process and the energy conservation** 

### 4 **standard process. We will finalize the test** 

### 5 **procedure and, of course, the primary purpose** 

### 6 **of the test procedure is to have the** 

### 7 **collection of data points that we need to** 

### 8 **measure to outline what we need to have** 

### 9 **collected in terms of data in order for us to** 

### 10 **establish an energy conservation standard.** 

### 11 **So, that is why the Test Procedure rule will** 

### 12 **get published as a final rule before the** 

### 13 **Energy Conservation Standard is published.** 

### 14 **These requirements will be rolled at some** 

### 15 **point into the NOPR of the Energy Conservation** 

### 16 **Standard, and then, into the final rule.** 

### 17 **One thing to note, that the** 

### 18 **effective date of the standard would be three** 

### 19 **years after we publish the final rule. So, as** 

### 20 **you can see, nothing is going to happen** 

### 21 **overnight. So, one of the things to keep in** 

### 22 **mind is there is plenty of time and there is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 also plenty of time for the industry to make**  

### 2 **adjustments to the standards set by the** 

### 3 **Department.** 

### 4 **Okay. So, that covers how it is** 

### 5 **supposed to work in this overview process.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Boesenberg.** 

### 7 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 8 **NEMA.** 

### 9 **In reviewing the authority, it** 

### 10 **wasn't clear to me, is a Tier 2 rule intended** 

### 11 **or authorized by the authority that grants** 

### 12 **this rule?** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy?** 

### 14 **MS. KOHL: What do you mean -- this** 

### 15 **is Betsy Kohl -- what do you mean by Tier 2** 

### 16 **rule?** 

### 17 **MR. BOESENBERG: I work in lighting** 

### 18 **mostly, and we have a lot of stuff that has a** 

### 19 **mandatory follow-up.** 

### 20 **MS. KOHL: I'm sorry, I am still** 

### 21 **not understanding.** 

### 22 **MR. BOESENBERG: You get a first**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 rule, and few years later you get a second one**  

### 2 **for the same things.** 

### 3 **MS. KOHL: Oh, sorry. Yes. The** 

### 4 **Energy Policy and Conservation Act requires** 

### 5 **us, at least once every six years, to go back** 

### 6 **and take a look at these things. So, there is** 

### 7 **nothing specific for pumps. There is just a** 

### 8 **general go back and take a look at a certain** 

### 9 **time interval.** 

### 10 **MR. LLENZA: So me standards we** 

### 11 **issued have what is called a look-back** 

### 12 **provision, and also some test procedures. So,** 

### 13 **nothing is left static. thisrequires us to** 

### 14 **look back at the test procedure first. Then,** 

### 15 **after we complete that, we go back and see if** 

### 16 **there is additional savings that the** 

### 17 **Department can achieve by getting a higher** 

### 18 **standard for pumps. But that is a process** 

### 19 **that we will have to determine for pumps and** 

### 20 **it takes another three years to get there.** 

### 21 **So, it is out in the future.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Charles.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 MR. BOESENBERG: Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?** 

### 3 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom for** 

### 4 **the California IOUs.** 

### 5 **I have a comment about the process.** 

### 6 **The DOE process is punctuated by these** 

### 7 **meetings where you tell us what you are going** 

### 8 **to do and ask for our input. And then, that** 

### 9 **is followed by a long period of silence.** 

### 10 **And I think we would all be better** 

### 11 **served if there were the opportunity for some** 

### 12 **sort of dialog with the analysts in the** 

### 13 **interim, so we can flesh-out any** 

### 14 **misunderstandings and provide more information** 

### 15 **on a more continuous, rather than a very** 

### 16 **sporadic basis.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: The only thing I could** 

### 18 **say about that -- maybe I will take a little** 

### 19 **liberty; don't panic (laughter) -- is that the** 

### 20 **Department is not against technical meetings** 

### 21 **with the industry. So, we are more than** 

### 22 **amenable to having technical meetings with the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 industry and parties of interest and with the**  

### 2 **technical teams to discuss particular issues** 

### 3 **that might be of value to the Department to** 

### 4 **get input, additional input from the industry.** 

### 5 **So, that is something that can happen.** 

### 6 **MR. FERNSTROM: So, my feedback is** 

### 7 **that would be terrific because I think both HI** 

### 8 **and the efficiency advocates would appreciate** 

### 9 **the opportunity for a dialog as the analysts** 

### 10 **may have questions about the best way to** 

### 11 **proceed.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy?** 

### 13 **MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl with** 

### 14 **the General Counsel's Office. You can also** 

### 15 **request meetings with the Department where we** 

### 16 **would listen to other things that you have to** 

### 17 **say about the rulemaking. And those are filed** 

### 18 **under our ex parte meeting guidelines, so that** 

### 19 **everyone knows that a meeting occurred and who** 

### 20 **was there and what was discussed. And those** 

### 21 **ex parte guidelines were published in The** 

### 22 **Federal Register, but if you would like them,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 you can let me know and I will send them to**  

### 2 **you.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky?** 

### 4 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug. John** 

### 5 **Cymbalsky, DOE.** 

### 6 **I would just like to add that, if** 

### 7 **this particular product goes the path of a** 

### 8 **negotiated rulemaking, it would be covered** 

### 9 **under the FACA guidelines, the meetings, and** 

### 10 **you would get more of what you are asking for** 

### 11 **in that process. So, like what we did with** 

### 12 **distribution transformers, which you were on** 

### 13 **the Committee, if it is decided that pumps is,** 

### 14 **again, prime for that type of activity, the** 

### 15 **Department would like to pursue that. And** 

### 16 **then, in that space you would get that real** 

### 17 **time back-and-forth, again, because it would** 

### 18 **be covered under the FACA guidelines because** 

### 19 **ASRAC is a FACA committee.** 

### 20 **So, otherwise, we would have to do** 

### 21 **this ex parte, if there is a fed in the room.** 

### 22 **If not, I know we have met with HI, our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 contractors have met with HI to just discuss**  

### 2 **data, and that's okay. That is a separate** 

### 3 **meeting.** 

### 4 **The other thing we will try to do** 

### 5 **in these rulemakings -- and we have done it** 

### 6 **for a couple now -- is posting spreadsheets of** 

### 7 **information on our website. They are not** 

### 8 **proposals of any kind. It is just** 

### 9 **information. And so, that is another way that** 

### 10 **we can information out quicker than waiting** 

### 11 **for steps in a public meeting.** 

### 12 **MR. FERNSTROM: So, John, how is** 

### 13 **this determination made regarding which** 

### 14 **pathway to follow?** 

### 15 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, next week, as I** 

### 16 **said at the outset, there will be a meeting.** 

### 17 **The first meeting of ASRAC will be on Tuesday,** 

### 18 **the 26th, and I encourage the public to** 

### 19 **participate in this.** 

### 20 **The Committee will decide and** 

### 21 **discuss which products could go that way, and** 

### 22 **the Committee will vote on that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 4 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 5 **Just in terms of following up, when** 

### 6 **you were talking about the ex parte meetings** 

### 7 **-- and for the record, we have had some with** 

### 8 **the Department -- that is just for the** 

### 9 **Department. That doesn't cover the analysts.** 

### 10 **That doesn't cover any analysts doing work for** 

### 11 **the Department. That is a separate issue,** 

### 12 **correct?** 

### 13 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I believe I** 

### 14 **stated that that would be a separate process,** 

### 15 **yes.** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And again,** 

### 17 **Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 18 **Yes, I think the issue is that,** 

### 19 **again, I think if there is meeting with the** 

### 20 **analysts outside of DOE, I think since there** 

### 21 **are multiple stakeholders here, I think there** 

### 22 **should be some information provided to other**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 stakeholders if there is some sort of meeting**  

### 2 **with the analysts outside of DOE that other** 

### 3 **stakeholders should be informed, because,** 

### 4 **obviously, it could impact the analysis.** 

### 5 **Thank you.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl?** 

### 7 **MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl.** 

### 8 **So, meetings with our analysts and** 

### 9 **technical folks are only to provide technical** 

### 10 **data and discussion. There is no policy** 

### 11 **issues discussed. That is what the ex parte** 

### 12 **rules are for, so that everyone is aware of** 

### 13 **those.** 

### 14 **And any information that we get out** 

### 15 **of those technical meetings is, obviously,** 

### 16 **when it becomes part of the rulemaking record,** 

### 17 **subject to public comment, and it is out** 

### 18 **there.** 

### 19 **MR. LLENZA: Just want to add that** 

### 20 **the Department enters these meetings, any** 

### 21 **information, agenda, issues discussed, etc.,** 

### 22 **into the docket, so people would have public**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 access to it.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charles.** 

### 3 **Other questions here about these** 

### 4 **issues? These are important, these access-to** 

### 5 **communication issues.** 

### 6 **(No response.)** 

### 7 **Okay, Charles.** 

### 8 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. I am going to** 

### 9 **go to issue 3 on the agenda. This is the** 

### 10 **legislative history and coverage for pumps,** 

### 11 **scope of coverage.** 

### 12 **So, currently, DOE has no Energy** 

### 13 **Conservation Standards for commercial and** 

### 14 **industrial pumps. The authority provided in** 

### 15 **EPCA provides DOE, Part C, Title III of EPCA,** 

### 16 **includes pump coverage and authorizes DOE to** 

### 17 **issue test procedures, standards, labeling** 

### 18 **requirements, whatever the Department** 

### 19 **determines through this process that is** 

### 20 **necessary for this rulemaking.** 

### 21 **So, we published back in June 2011** 

### 22 **with an RFI and received comments from**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 stakeholders. Those comments were rolled into**  

### 2 **our framework. We did not provide responses** 

### 3 **at the time, but we hoped that our framework** 

### 4 **document has provided, put to the forefront** 

### 5 **some of these issues and provided some clarity** 

### 6 **as to what the Department wants to do with the** 

### 7 **information received from the RFI.** 

### 8 **As you were talking about technical** 

### 9 **meetings, we have had several technical** 

### 10 **meetings here at the Department, not only** 

### 11 **technical meetings, but we have had meetings** 

### 12 **here at the Department with the Appliance** 

### 13 **Standards Awareness Project and the Hydraulic** 

### 14 **Institute in December 2011 regarding the** 

### 15 **potential Energy Conservation Standards for** 

### 16 **commercial and industrial pumps. And there is** 

### 17 **a letter, ex parte letter/memo in our pump** 

### 18 **docket.** 

### 19 **Also, as of today, we had a** 

### 20 **technical meeting, I believe, in Colorado. I** 

### 21 **believe it was May last year. And so, we have** 

### 22 **these in the docket, if people might be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 curious about these.**  

### 2 **We like to keep them strictly** 

### 3 **technical. Let's stick to the technical** 

### 4 **issues. We are more than willing to attend** 

### 5 **and think these are a good thing. We are** 

### 6 **being educated, basically, and you guys are** 

### 7 **the experts. So, you are more than welcome to** 

### 8 **tell us the way things are supposed to be.** 

### 9 **And so, today this meeting has been** 

### 10 **called based on the framework notice that went** 

### 11 **out February 1st.** 

### 12 **Okay. So, here we go with some of** 

### 13 **what we think this rulemaking is going to look** 

### 14 **like. These are the pumps that DOE is** 

### 15 **considering for standards. So, we have looked** 

### 16 **at all sorts of pumps. There is a lot out** 

### 17 **there. And the Department has now zeroed into** 

### 18 **a few categories, and I this is what we are** 

### 19 **asking for you to provide your comments and** 

### 20 **input.** 

### 21 **So, we have clean water pumps. We** 

### 22 **have looked at the EU regulations, and we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 define clean water as per what we have seen**  

### 2 **from the EU, pumps designed for clean water.** 

### 3 **And part of what we will be doing, also, is** 

### 4 **trying to provide definitions for these for** 

### 5 **which we don't have any. So, part of this** 

### 6 **process is that we have provided drafts on** 

### 7 **what we think the definitions should be. The** 

### 8 **input from the stakeholders should be if that** 

### 9 **is a good definition or not a good definition,** 

### 10 **and then provide us what they think it should** 

### 11 **be with examples.** 

### 12 **At this time we are not considering** 

### 13 **covering wastewater, slump, slurry, solids** 

### 14 **handling, AP1610 pumps. Possibly consider** 

### 15 **covering ANSI chemical pumps, pumps for other** 

### 16 **liquids with no solids that behave similarly** 

### 17 **to water.** 

### 18 **The other type of pumps is** 

### 19 **rotodynamic, clean water pumps. Again, we** 

### 20 **have looked at some EU regulation that is out** 

### 21 **there. I think they have had the lead on this** 

### 22 **for a while in terms of the regulatory**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 environment. So, we have sort of borrowed**  

### 2 **from their playbook a little until we get our** 

### 3 **footing with this rulemaking and** 

### 4 **thestakeholders input in the U.S. industry.** 

### 5 **Clean water pumps represents about** 

### 6 **70 percent of sales by value and 90 percent of** 

### 7 **pump energy use. We are not considering** 

### 8 **positive displacement pumps at this time.** 

### 9 **So, we come to our first chevron.** 

### 10 **Are there questions first?** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, questions?** 

### 12 **Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **Yes, a question on the -- well, you** 

### 15 **are going to get to that. I will wait until** 

### 16 **you go over your Request for Comments, and** 

### 17 **then I will have a question on that last** 

### 18 **slide. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, these are** 

### 20 **the Requests for Comments. These are kind of** 

### 21 **the questions we have. DOE seeks comments on** 

### 22 **the proposal to cover only clean water pumps**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 in this rulemaking. Important: do we have**  

### 2 **other things that we want to cover? That is** 

### 3 **1-1.** 

### 4 **Item 1-2, DOE requests comments on** 

### 5 **whether it should rely on these definitions** 

### 6 **for clean water. It could be -- coverage of** 

### 7 **pumps, as the EU does. Or, if, instead, the** 

### 8 **definition of clean water pumps should include** 

### 9 **physical characteristics that distinguish** 

### 10 **pumps designed to clean water or exclude pumps** 

### 11 **designed for other purposes. That would be** 

### 12 **Item 1-2.** 

### 13 **Item 1-3, DOE seeks comment on the** 

### 14 **list of physical differences that may exist** 

### 15 **between pumps designed for clean water and** 

### 16 **pumps designed for other substances. That is** 

### 17 **important if we are going to try to cover** 

### 18 **other substance-type pumps.** 

### 19 **Specifically, on this is the list** 

### 20 **accurate and exhaustive? Do anydifferences** 

### 21 **impact energy efficiency? Do the differences** 

### 22 **increase cost? And other things that you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 might know of that DOE should be made aware**  

### 2 **of.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: You can imagine,** 

### 4 **since we are creating a complete transcript of** 

### 5 **this meeting, to make these comments fairly** 

### 6 **systematic, it makes it much easier for** 

### 7 **everybody to follow a couple-hundred-page** 

### 8 **document.** 

### 9 **So, I would like to proceed with** 

### 10 **Item 1-1, and then to 1-2 and 1-3. So, let's** 

### 11 **receive comments on those.** 

### 12 **Yes, please, Steve.** 

### 13 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.** 

### 14 **Steve Schmitz, Grundfos,** 

### 15 **representing the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 16 **The Hydraulic Institute believes** 

### 17 **that, in order to capture the largest** 

### 18 **population of potential energy savings, HI** 

### 19 **recommends aligning with the European Union** 

### 20 **Directive 547, 2012. This Directive focuses** 

### 21 **on non-engineered, non-specialized pumps and** 

### 22 **standard design, as you have already**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 mentioned, applied in clean water**  

### 2 **applications.** 

### 3 **Later on, we will get into some of** 

### 4 **the specifics. So, I won't jump to that, in** 

### 5 **the essence of time.** 

### 6 **I would like to point out that** 

### 7 **there are two additional areas in the EU** 

### 8 **Directive that exclude two types of pumps** 

### 9 **which you did not mention here, which is fire** 

### 10 **pumps and self-priming pumps. We are** 

### 11 **recommending that those be excluded as well** 

### 12 **within part of the EU Directive.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank** 

### 14 **you.** 

### 15 **Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 17 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 18 **If you could scroll back to the** 

### 19 **previous slides, just again, it says DOE may** 

### 20 **define clean water or use a separate** 

### 21 **definition. Again, that could be kind of** 

### 22 **critical in terms of, depending on how you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 define it, in terms of parts per million of**  

### 2 **certain particles. That could make a** 

### 3 **difference in terms of what is covered under** 

### 4 **that category. And again, I am not familiar** 

### 5 **with the EU definition, but if they have** 

### 6 **different standards, that can make quite a** 

### 7 **difference compared to U.S. standards in terms** 

### 8 **of, quote, "how it is defined by EPA," for** 

### 9 **example under the Clean Water Act.** 

### 10 **The second thing I wanted, because** 

### 11 **I am a numbers person, in the second part it** 

### 12 **says, "Represents 70 percent of sales by value** 

### 13 **and 90 percent of pump energy use." That is** 

### 14 **within the Clean Water Pump Category?** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, I think so,** 

### 16 **right?** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,** 

### 18 **LBNL.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, find a** 

### 20 **microphone. I'm sorry. Alison? Thank you.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, the 70 percent** 

### 22 **and 90 percent are for rotodynamic pump types**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 that are used for clean water, but they are**  

### 2 **not all necessarily clean water pumps. They** 

### 3 **are types that can be used for clean water.** 

### 4 **And we have further numbers later.** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And again,** 

### 6 **Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 7 **I appreciate that clarification.** 

### 8 **Again, it was just kind of written** 

### 9 **out there as if it wasn't -- I wasn't clear.** 

### 10 **This is just under the Clean Water Category?** 

### 11 **It is not a chemical pump or the other liquid** 

### 12 **pumps that are out there. It is just 70** 

### 13 **percent and 90 percent of the clean water** 

### 14 **pumps?** 

### 15 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean, it is a** 

### 16 **little more. First of all, it is an estimate,** 

### 17 **just to try to get an overview. But it is** 

### 18 **also, again, rotodynamic pump types that could** 

### 19 **be used in clean water. So, it may include** 

### 20 **some ANSI chemical process pumps because a lot** 

### 21 **of them can be used in clean water.** 

### 22 **There are further slides with a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 little bit better desegregation.**  

### 2 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead.** 

### 4 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.** 

### 5 **Just to clarify, Steve, to your** 

### 6 **question about clean water, and to jump to the** 

### 7 **1-2, there is an ISO 9906 standard out of** 

### 8 **Europe that defines clean water. There is a** 

### 9 **difference between clean water and drinking** 

### 10 **water as defined by the EPA. And we are** 

### 11 **encouraging the use of the definition from the** 

### 12 **ISO standard.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 14 **Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 15 **MR. FERNSTROM: Could we ask HI to** 

### 16 **clarify what is meant by self-priming? In my** 

### 17 **view, there are a lot of clean water pumps** 

### 18 **that are to some extent self-priming. The EU** 

### 19 **and you would want to exclude those? What** 

### 20 **exactly do you mean by self-priming?** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 22 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 Well, self-priming pumps are pumps,**  

### 2 **of course, that have to pull substantial NPSH** 

### 3 **to pull the water up and recirculate the** 

### 4 **pumps, to, in essence, energize the pump, so** 

### 5 **it can begin moving the water. And so, there** 

### 6 **is a category of pumps specifically applicable** 

### 7 **to the self-priming that, because of that very** 

### 8 **nature, the high water recirculation and the** 

### 9 **NPSH lift, it is by nature very much less** 

### 10 **efficient.** 

### 11 **MR. FERNSTROM: So, to fit into the** 

### 12 **term "self-priming," there is some significant** 

### 13 **net suction pressure that these pumps are** 

### 14 **dealing with. And ones that deal with minimal** 

### 15 **suction pressure are not deemed self-priming?** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, please. Go** 

### 17 **ahead.** 

### 18 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.** 

### 19 **No, you can have pumps that are low** 

### 20 **suction pressure that are not necessarily** 

### 21 **self-priming, pumps as in boiler feed,** 

### 22 **domestic hot-water-type applications, of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 course. But there are other pumps that are**  

### 2 **specifically designed, and the intent and the** 

### 3 **usage is for self-priming to fill the line and** 

### 4 **energize it for the system.** 

### 5 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, my** 

### 6 **observation is we want to be careful not to** 

### 7 **exclude an important segment of pumps that may** 

### 8 **deal with some minimum suction pressure, but** 

### 9 **are not deemed to be self-priming.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 11 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano,** 

### 12 **Xylem and the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 13 **I think maybe just a little** 

### 14 **clarification. Self-priming pump, as we are** 

### 15 **defining it, is not an application. It is a** 

### 16 **specifically-designed machine for certain** 

### 17 **types of applications; namely, when water is** 

### 18 **below the surface of the pump.** 

### 19 **And so, because it is designed** 

### 20 **specifically to draw water from below, there** 

### 21 **are certain design characteristics that have** 

### 22 **to be met to make it function as it is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 intended, which don't necessarily correspond**  

### 2 **with efficiency. So, in other words, you make** 

### 3 **some tradeoffs between the ability to suck** 

### 4 **from below the ground and the efficiency.** 

### 5 **Otherwise, they don't work properly. And it** 

### 6 **is a relatively-small -- I don't know the** 

### 7 **number off the top of my head -- but it is a** 

### 8 **relatively-small portion of the population.** 

### 9 **So, that was the thought process.** 

### 10 **MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 12 **I would like to proceed with these** 

### 13 **question box items, 1-1, 1-2, and 1-3. So,** 

### 14 **maybe look at what is there on your PowerPoint** 

### 15 **slide and let's respond to those.** 

### 16 **Neal?** 

### 17 **MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE.** 

### 18 **With respect to the question about** 

### 19 **coverage, this 1-3, coverage beyond clean** 

### 20 **water, including chemical pumps, from ACEEE's** 

### 21 **perspective, it would be I would prefer to see** 

### 22 **us at this point focus on clean water and not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 introduce in the additional issues associated**  

### 2 **with chemical pumps.** 

### 3 **We run into both material with** 

### 4 **respect to the pump itself, but also seal** 

### 5 **considerations that could have significant** 

### 6 **impact on the pump efficiency. I think we are** 

### 7 **dealing with what is initially a very complex** 

### 8 **rulemaking. And I think simplifying it for** 

### 9 **this initial phase and focusing on clean water** 

### 10 **would be better than additional complexities** 

### 11 **of trying to deal with non-water fluids.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 13 **MR. SCHMITZ: Yes, I would support** 

### 14 **what Neal is saying and reiterate that what we** 

### 15 **are proposing as part of the EU Directive does** 

### 16 **provide the greatest breadth of unit volume in** 

### 17 **the marketplace for the greatest energy** 

### 18 **savings. It is the most expeditious path** 

### 19 **forward for implementation. It offers the** 

### 20 **greatest global alignment with the EU** 

### 21 **Directive, as previously noted, and it does** 

### 22 **support the Executive Order 13-609 from May of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 this last year for international regulatory**  

### 2 **cooperation.** 

### 3 **And then, it aligns and supports** 

### 4 **the Energy Independence and Security Act for** 

### 5 **motor ranges that are already defined by the** 

### 6 **DOE.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is there someone to** 

### 8 **specifically just answer the questions that** 

### 9 **are listed in 1-3.** 

### 10 **MR. HANDZEL: Obviously, HI's** 

### 11 **position is to support clean water and to** 

### 12 **follow the European standard that already** 

### 13 **exists.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Are you speaking on** 

### 15 **behalf of your company or --** 

### 16 **MR. HANDZEL: I am speaking on** 

### 17 **behalf of the Hydraulic Institute --** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. HANDZEL: -- and my company.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Both?** 

### 21 **MR. HANDZEL: Okay?** 

### 22 **So, just to answer the question, in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 1-3, there is a list of some features of pumps**  

### 2 **that are listed. And so, just to answer, no,** 

### 3 **the list is not accurate and exhaustive. Yes,** 

### 4 **the differences definitely impact** 

### 5 **efficiencies. So, the second point of does** 

### 6 **these differences impact efficiencies, yes,** 

### 7 **they definitely do.** 

### 8 **And the third point, yes, the** 

### 9 **differences will definitely lead to an** 

### 10 **increased cost.** 

### 11 **There are further questions in the** 

### 12 **document that we will go into more detail that** 

### 13 **will provide some additional detail around** 

### 14 **these answers.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good.** 

### 16 **MR. HANDZEL: Okay?** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And just to** 

### 18 **be clear, especially for those of you that are** 

### 19 **new to the proceedings, anything that you** 

### 20 **haven't covered sufficiently in this meeting** 

### 21 **today, the Department welcomes your exhaustive** 

### 22 **and detailed comments in writing. Okay?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 Gary Fernstrom?**  

### 2 **MR. FERNSTROM: One more quick** 

### 3 **comment. Gary Fernstrom.** 

### 4 **We are interested in asking the DOE** 

### 5 **to consider including circulator pumps. If I** 

### 6 **understand it, none of these issues on the** 

### 7 **screen expressly exclude circulator pumps** 

### 8 **because they are clean water pumps.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 10 **Have we covered sufficiently 1-1,** 

### 11 **1-2, and 1-3?** 

### 12 **(No response.)** 

### 13 **I think for now.** 

### 14 **Okay. Now so, Charles, walk us** 

### 15 **through 1-4 and 1-5, please.** 

### 16 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, 1-4, DOE** 

### 17 **seeks comments on whether it should consider** 

### 18 **standards for pump design for non-water** 

### 19 **liquids -- we are repeating ourselves a little** 

### 20 **bit -- that contain limited solids in this** 

### 21 **rulemaking. It is important, if we are going** 

### 22 **to stick to one type or the other, or if we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 want both.**  

### 2 **DOE is specifically interested in** 

### 3 **ANSI chemical process pumps, API 610 pumps,** 

### 4 **sealless, if I am pronouncing that right,** 

### 5 **magnetic drive, canned, and cantilever pumps,** 

### 6 **sanitary pumps, refrigerant pumps, general** 

### 7 **industrial pumps. And when suggesting pump** 

### 8 **types for which standards should not be** 

### 9 **considered, please be specific as to the** 

### 10 **reason why.** 

### 11 **So, tell us what you want covered** 

### 12 **and tell us what you don't want covered. And** 

### 13 **we would appreciate, also, reasons why, pros** 

### 14 **and cons.** 

### 15 **Item 1-5, DOE requests comments on** 

### 16 **whether any design changes made to the** 

### 17 **standard clean water pumps would carry through** 

### 18 **to pumps designed for other applications. So,** 

### 19 **this is basically, if we go with the clean** 

### 20 **water pumps, what are some of the design** 

### 21 **changes that would carry over to the non-clean** 

### 22 **water pump types?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: And it looks like**  

### 2 **Mark is ready, and that is on behalf of HI,** 

### 3 **right?** 

### 4 **MR. HANDZEL: Yes, that is correct.** 

### 5 **Mark Handzel, Xylem, Incorporated,** 

### 6 **and a member of the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 7 **The members of the Hydraulic** 

### 8 **Institute feel that pumps designed for non** 

### 9 **water liquids should be exempt from the** 

### 10 **efficiency regulations because they are** 

### 11 **typically designed to comply with other key** 

### 12 **requirements, such as safety and reliability.** 

### 13 **For example, to assure better** 

### 14 **safety and reliability, these pumps could be** 

### 15 **designed with wider internal clearances,** 

### 16 **oversized shafts, and oversized bearings. All** 

### 17 **of these could lead to reduced efficiencies.** 

### 18 **I have a long description of ANSI** 

### 19 **pumps and API pumps that I will provide** 

### 20 **instead of reading to you. But, basically, it** 

### 21 **goes through and designs how these criteria** 

### 22 **lead to compromising the efficiency of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 pumps in order to be more reliable and more**  

### 2 **safe. So, particularly when you are handling** 

### 3 **fluids like petroleum products or higher** 

### 4 **temperatures that go well beyond the scope of** 

### 5 **what has been proposed in the framework** 

### 6 **document.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And does** 

### 8 **that, then, address fairly completely what** 

### 9 **should be covered and not covered?** 

### 10 **MR. HANDZEL: So, the two specific** 

### 11 **areas that we are addressing is ANSI chemical** 

### 12 **process pumps and API 610 pumps as well as the** 

### 13 **variations that are listed after it.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. HANDZEL: Okay?** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 17 **Other comments on that?** 

### 18 **And then, moving to 1-5, design** 

### 19 **changes made to standard clean water pumps** 

### 20 **would carry through pumps designed for other** 

### 21 **applications.** 

### 22 **Steve Rosenstock?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick**  

### 2 **question here. And again, I didn't know the** 

### 3 **definition, but if it is an industrial pump** 

### 4 **that is a clean water pump, an industrial** 

### 5 **facility for an industrial process, what would** 

### 6 **that qualify as a clean water pump if it is** 

### 7 **also classified as an industrial pump?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?** 

### 9 **MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,** 

### 10 **LBNL.** 

### 11 **So, DOE is just considering some** 

### 12 **different definitions here. So, I think the** 

### 13 **answer to that depends on the final** 

### 14 **definitions that are decided.** 

### 15 **MR. LLENZA: So, that is subject to** 

### 16 **further modifications from your interpretation** 

### 17 **or to our interpretation of your** 

### 18 **interpretation.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: I am wondering if** 

### 20 **anybody from the industry -- Mark, do you want** 

### 21 **to try with that?** 

### 22 **MR. HANDZEL: So, we struggle with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 this question as well. Primarily because we**  

### 2 **manufacture pumps, we don't necessarily always** 

### 3 **know the applications that they are going to** 

### 4 **be used in.** 

### 5 **So, Alison is definitely right that** 

### 6 **there could be pumps in these classifications** 

### 7 **that could be used on clean water. So, there** 

### 8 **is that possibility.** 

### 9 **Obviously, the point we are making** 

### 10 **is that there are many compromises that are** 

### 11 **made to handle the more aggressive** 

### 12 **applications that these pumps are typically** 

### 13 **designed for. So, it makes it very difficult** 

### 14 **to apply efficiency rules to them** 

### 15 **specifically.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **Ken first, and then, to Steve.** 

### 18 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano,** 

### 19 **Xylem and HI.** 

### 20 **I think the position that we are** 

### 21 **taking is that, first of all, agreeing to** 

### 22 **clean water, what that means, and I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 think we are that far off there.**  

### 2 **And then, using that to determine a** 

### 3 **scope of products that are primarily designed** 

### 4 **for that application. So, ultimately, it** 

### 5 **leads you to a definition of XYZ products, so** 

### 6 **that you get away from the application,** 

### 7 **because it is virtually certain that you could** 

### 8 **take almost any pump, even though it may be** 

### 9 **designed for benzene or hydrochloric acid or** 

### 10 **heavy slurry, and pump water with it, because** 

### 11 **that is easier than the application, if you** 

### 12 **will, that it was intended for.** 

### 13 **So, I think we are making is define** 

### 14 **what clean water is. We agree on that, what** 

### 15 **pumps are primarily designed for clean water,** 

### 16 **and then create the scope that way.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve** 

### 18 **Schmitz?** 

### 19 **MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz.** 

### 20 **To reiterate what Ken said, yes,** 

### 21 **pumps in those types of applications could be** 

### 22 **used in clean water. Typically, they are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 going to be two to four times more expensive**  

### 2 **than just a clean water pump. So, the** 

### 3 **likelihood of that being done on a purposeful,** 

### 4 **consistent basis is very remote.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then,** 

### 6 **have we addressed 1-5?** 

### 7 **(No response.)** 

### 8 **Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. SCHMITZ: Just to reiterate** 

### 10 **that HI does not believe any design changes** 

### 11 **for clean water pumps would carry through to** 

### 12 **other applications.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: I would like to say** 

### 14 **the quality of the comment is excellent. This** 

### 15 **really helps the Department. So, let's keep** 

### 16 **on with that.** 

### 17 **Charles Llenza?** 

### 18 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, we are Item** 

### 19 **1-6. DOE seeks comments on its proposal to** 

### 20 **consider standards for rotodynamic pumps --** 

### 21 **somebody asked about that; -- and not positive** 

### 22 **displacement pumps.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 In particular, DOE requests**  

### 2 **comments on the extent of the overlap between** 

### 3 **rotodynamic and positive displacement pumps** 

### 4 **and whether there are certain categories of** 

### 5 **rotodynamic pumps, pump types and ranges of** 

### 6 **flow and specific speed, et cetera, for which** 

### 7 **positive displacement pumps could not be a** 

### 8 **direct replacement.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark?** 

### 10 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel of Xylem** 

### 11 **and the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 12 **The members of the Hydraulic** 

### 13 **Institute wish to confirm that positive** 

### 14 **displacement pumps represent a small** 

### 15 **percentage of the overall pump market and are** 

### 16 **generally used in niche applications such as** 

### 17 **pumping viscous or shear sensitive fluids.** 

### 18 **Because positive displacement and rotodynamic** 

### 19 **pumps provide different application solutions,** 

### 20 **economic issues generally prevent overlap of** 

### 21 **these two pump designs.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 Are there other comments on this**  

### 2 **one?** 

### 3 **(No response.)** 

### 4 **Then, we are going to move on.** 

### 5 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, for the** 

### 6 **pump type for which DOE is considering** 

### 7 **standards here is what DOE has proposed for** 

### 8 **terminology. So, this table basically** 

### 9 **provides a matrix of that.** 

### 10 **And I will just go over the** 

### 11 **terminology, and request your better** 

### 12 **terminology,: End Suction Close Coupled, End** 

### 13 **Suction Frame Mounted, In-Line, Double** 

### 14 **Suction, Axial Split Multi-Stage, Radially** 

### 15 **Split Multi-Stage, Vertical Turbine,** 

### 16 **Submersible, and Axial/Propeller and Mixed.** 

### 17 **As you can see, it is specific to the pump** 

### 18 **type.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, this** 

### 20 **classification here, you would like** 

### 21 **confirmation on those listed here in yellow --** 

### 22 **MR. LLENZA: Right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- or corrections,**  

### 2 **whatever.** 

### 3 **MR. LLENZA: Based on the pump** 

### 4 **type.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Albert,** 

### 6 **please.** 

### 7 **MR. HUBER: HI proposes that we or** 

### 8 **our proposal is that we stick with the ANSI/HI** 

### 9 **nomenclature as we have presented to the** 

### 10 **Department, along with the corresponding** 

### 11 **descriptions. These are nomenclature and** 

### 12 **descriptions that are widely used in the** 

### 13 **industry and known by the industry and, also,** 

### 14 **by the users in the marketplace.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: And are those** 

### 16 **consistent with what is listed here in yellow?** 

### 17 **MR. HUBER: No. The descriptions** 

### 18 **are not, no, they are not.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. LLENZA: So, the Department** 

### 21 **would appreciate great detail on that.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: I see Alison.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 Please.**  

### 2 **MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,** 

### 3 **LBNL.** 

### 4 **One of the subsequent comments** 

### 5 **specifically asked for the ANSI/HI** 

### 6 **nomenclature that would go along with these** 

### 7 **because what has been provided so far was not** 

### 8 **comprehensive of the categories DOE is** 

### 9 **considering. So, DOE is definitely open to** 

### 10 **that and is requesting specific comment on** 

### 11 **matching those things up.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex, yes?** 

### 13 **Pardon me. Albert, yes, okay?** 

### 14 **Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 15 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 16 **EEI.** 

### 17 **Yes, clarification on the table.** 

### 18 **Where everything is totally blocked out, you** 

### 19 **know, again, does that mean you are not** 

### 20 **covering those and DOE is not thinking about** 

### 21 **covering those? I just wanted to get a** 

### 22 **double-check on that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,**  

### 2 **LBNL.** 

### 3 **Yes, that is correct. Those are** 

### 4 **not currently considered for coverage and, as** 

### 5 **far as we understand, are not covered in the** 

### 6 **EU, either.** 

### 7 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. That** 

### 8 **helps.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: I am looking for** 

### 10 **additional input from industry here. Mark?** 

### 11 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel with** 

### 12 **Xylem and a member of the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 13 **So, this is specifically in regard** 

### 14 **to Question 1-7. So, I am not sure if we are** 

### 15 **ready to go to that.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: I think we are ready** 

### 17 **to do that.** 

### 18 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, we are ready to** 

### 19 **go to that one.** 

### 20 **MR. HANDZEL: So, as you have heard** 

### 21 **from a number of our speakers, you know, we** 

### 22 **are pretty firmly behind supporting staying in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 line with the current EU standards. So, a**  

### 2 **prepared statement analysis of the U.S. pump** 

### 3 **market confirms that the variety of existing** 

### 4 **products in numerous market segments, each** 

### 5 **with unique requirements, is too wide and** 

### 6 **complex, as similar design across multiple** 

### 7 **market segments are applied differently,** 

### 8 **resulting in a large number of unique product** 

### 9 **variations.** 

### 10 **In order to capture the largest** 

### 11 **population of potential energy savings, the** 

### 12 **Hydraulic Institute recommends aligning with** 

### 13 **the European Directive EU No. 547-2012. The** 

### 14 **EU Directive focuses on non-engineered, non** 

### 15 **specialized pumps and standard design applied** 

### 16 **in clean-water-only applications for the** 

### 17 **broadest scope.** 

### 18 **Expansion beyond the EU Directive** 

### 19 **parameters will add complexity and cost to the** 

### 20 **tasks of the manufacturers and create a** 

### 21 **significant financial burden for us to gain** 

### 22 **compliance.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 Specifically related to double**  

### 2 **suction pumps and vertical turbines beyond 6-** 

### 3 **inch bowl assemblies, HI recommends that these** 

### 4 **products be excluded from the first version of** 

### 5 **the DOE ruling to stay in alignment with the** 

### 6 **EU specifications and, further, avoid this** 

### 7 **financial burden on pump manufacturers.** 

### 8 **Double-suction pumps and vertical turbines** 

### 9 **beyond 6-inch bowl assemblies could be added** 

### 10 **in subsequent Phase 2 addition to capture** 

### 11 **additional energy savings.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You are going** 

### 13 **to let us know if you are not speaking on** 

### 14 **behalf of HI, correct? I am noticing, as I** 

### 15 **sit here and observe, that you have got well** 

### 16 **crafted responses there in front of you. So,** 

### 17 **let us know if you are not speaking on behalf** 

### 18 **of --** 

### 19 **MR. HANDZEL: I will.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: -- HI.** 

### 21 **Gary?** 

### 22 **MR. FERNSTROM: We are interested**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 in circulator pumps. So, I just hope they are**  

### 2 **still on the table.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **John Cymbalsky?** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 6 **DOE.** 

### 7 **So, in your experience in working** 

### 8 **with the EU, is there a succinct answer for** 

### 9 **why the EU did not cover certain types? Is it** 

### 10 **just the market scope is small or it was too** 

### 11 **expensive to do anything with? If you have a** 

### 12 **short answer for that, that would be helpful.** 

### 13 **MR. HANDZEL: They focused on where** 

### 14 **they felt the largest possible was -- sorry,** 

### 15 **Mark Handzel, speaking for Xylem and Hydraulic** 

### 16 **Institute -- they focused on where the largest** 

### 17 **potential energy savings were. So,** 

### 18 **specifically double-suction pumps, for** 

### 19 **example, there is not a broad market in the EU** 

### 20 **for double-suction pumps.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Albert?** 

### 22 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber speaking**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 on behalf of the Hydraulic Institute and**  

### 2 **Patterson Pump Company.** 

### 3 **Particularly double-suction pumps** 

### 4 **in the market in the U.S., 50 percent, or** 

### 5 **slightly more than that, are used for fire** 

### 6 **protection, which should not be considered by** 

### 7 **the Department of Energy for regulation.** 

### 8 **Therefore, the total amount of** 

### 9 **double-suction pumps used is fairly small** 

### 10 **unit-wise as compared to the ones that we have** 

### 11 **proposed. And that is why we do not recommend** 

### 12 **double-suction pumps at this time.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve** 

### 14 **Rosenstock?** 

### 15 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock,** 

### 16 **EEI.** 

### 17 **As a clarification, in the table** 

### 18 **where it says EU coverage is partial and the** 

### 19 **DOE coverage is -- would that be all** 

### 20 **categories, not just a partial EU?** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?** 

### 22 **MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 LBNL.**  

### 2 **Yes, in the categories where it** 

### 3 **says partial for the EU, it is currently** 

### 4 **noting that DOE is considering a wider** 

### 5 **selection of pumps than then the EU seems to** 

### 6 **be covering.** 

### 7 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. Thank you** 

### 8 **for that clarification.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's go to the** 

### 10 **comment boxes and make sure that we have** 

### 11 **covered these.** 

### 12 **Yes, please, Ken.** 

### 13 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Just back on that** 

### 14 **last slide, I just want to make sure I** 

### 15 **understand. So, when you say -- because I** 

### 16 **read that as the EU covered greater than one** 

### 17 **stage of the vertical turbine submersible.** 

### 18 **Was that the question? And when you say** 

### 19 **"wider," that would include one stage?** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: That is correct,** 

### 22 **and, also, with regard to the radially split**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 multi-stage pumps, DOE is considering a wider**  

### 2 **variety of those than the vertical in-line** 

### 3 **type considered in the EU.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. LLENZA: So, I just want to add** 

### 6 **again, this was the framework. So, everything** 

### 7 **is subject to change, hopefully -- hopefully,** 

### 8 **not much. Just provide us what you really** 

### 9 **think, and we would like supporting data for** 

### 10 **any changes in direction.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, you can see the** 

### 12 **comment boxes listed there on the screen, 1-7,** 

### 13 **1-8, and 1-9. You all see quite well** 

### 14 **prepared. Let's make sure you get a chance to** 

### 15 **speak to those issues.** 

### 16 **Joanna Mauer?** 

### 17 **MS. MAUER: So, regarding the** 

### 18 **proposal to consider standards for pumps not** 

### 19 **covered in the EU, based on our kind of** 

### 20 **initial review, as I mentioned earlier, the** 

### 21 **one category that we think is at least worth** 

### 22 **considering for standards is the double-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 suction pumps.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 3 **And, of course, the Department** 

### 4 **welcomes counterpoint as well, if there is** 

### 5 **such a thing.** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: So, let's move on to** 

### 7 **the next section.** 

### 8 **MR. HANDZEL: So, I have one more** 

### 9 **thing on 1-9, just to -- Mark Handzel speaking** 

### 10 **on behalf of Xylem and the Hydraulic** 

### 11 **Institute.** 

### 12 **On 1-9, the members of the** 

### 13 **Hydraulic Institute wish to clarify that there** 

### 14 **are areas with potential categories, but many** 

### 15 **are due to economic constraints. This** 

### 16 **approach is meant to generally align with the** 

### 17 **EU scope and it is designed to focus on off** 

### 18 **the-shelf pumps and to exempt pumps with low** 

### 19 **flow and fractional horsepowers that have** 

### 20 **little opportunity for efficiency improvement** 

### 21 **and energy savings.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 Are we finished with this section?**  

### 2 **John Cymbalsky?** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I just want to** 

### 4 **make a point here, since some of us are new to** 

### 5 **this process.** 

### 6 **So, coverage does not necessarily** 

### 7 **mean that a standard would be set at a higher** 

### 8 **level than is already in the market. So, we** 

### 9 **could have coverage for a certain type of** 

### 10 **pump. Yet, at the same time, that doesn't** 

### 11 **necessarily mean our analysis will point to a** 

### 12 **standard that you guys already don't meet.** 

### 13 **Economic criteria is later in the analysis.** 

### 14 **So, coverage could be there, but not** 

### 15 **necessarily have a standard that you couldn't** 

### 16 **already meet, just to point that out.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: Right. And to add to** 

### 18 **that -- this is Charles Llenza, the Department** 

### 19 **of Energy -- we could end up base lining what** 

### 20 **the industry has available.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charles.** 

### 22 **Neal?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE.**  

### 2 **I think one of the important points** 

### 3 **-- and this has been mentioned by my** 

### 4 **colleagues from industry -- as I had indicated** 

### 5 **earlier, we are dealing with a very complex** 

### 6 **marketplace for a very complex product.** 

### 7 **To your point, John, I think** 

### 8 **initially focusing on the standards for** 

### 9 **products which represent the largest** 

### 10 **opportunity and the biggest consistency** 

### 11 **represents the target. Considering extending** 

### 12 **this standards, actually extending standards** 

### 13 **to additional products in subsequent** 

### 14 **rulemakings, we think makes a lot of sense.** 

### 15 **Let's get our feet wet. Let's get some** 

### 16 **standards under our belts before we attempt to** 

### 17 **expand the impacts potentially on the** 

### 18 **manufacturers from covering a wide range of** 

### 19 **products with standards which initially is a** 

### 20 **significant liability to the industry. So, I** 

### 21 **think moving with deliberateness is an** 

### 22 **appropriate approach.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?**  

### 2 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano,** 

### 3 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 4 **On that point, and on the whole** 

### 5 **basic point of harmonizing with the EU and,** 

### 6 **additionally, why we favor that, beyond the** 

### 7 **fact that it is aligned with President Obama's** 

### 8 **recent executive action to attempt** 

### 9 **harmonization, where possible, if I could** 

### 10 **state it that way, the vast majority of** 

### 11 **Hydraulic Institute members and companies that** 

### 12 **would be subject to any DOE rulemaking are** 

### 13 **multinational and/or global players in the** 

### 14 **marketplace.** 

### 15 **So, to the extent to which we can** 

### 16 **keep as harmonized as possible with what is** 

### 17 **out there, so that, one, we can work on the** 

### 18 **same products in a concerted, coordinated way** 

### 19 **in terms of meeting the regulations. There is** 

### 20 **substantial cost to redesign. And then, also,** 

### 21 **be designing for the same targets or close to** 

### 22 **the same targets.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Any**  

### 2 **additional on this? We are going to, yes,** 

### 3 **move on.** 

### 4 **MR. LLENZA: Let's move on. Okay.** 

### 5 **So. 1-10. DOE seeks comments on pump types as** 

### 6 **described by ANSI/HI nomenclature that fall** 

### 7 **into equipment categories set forth in Table** 

### 8 **1.1, Slide 28.** 

### 9 **For example, type OH1 would be** 

### 10 **classified as end suction frame mounted pump.** 

### 11 **For ANSI/HI pump types that would not fall** 

### 12 **into the categories of Table 1.1, please** 

### 13 **provide specific reasons, such as solids** 

### 14 **handling-only or other descriptors of that** 

### 15 **sort.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Schmitz?** 

### 17 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.** 

### 18 **Steve Schmitz, Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 19 **Again, the pump type categories** 

### 20 **defined by HI as recommended for inclusion in** 

### 21 **this efficiency standard present the greatest** 

### 22 **opportunity for implementation. And there are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 other subsegments specific to ANSI chemical**  

### 2 **type applications that can be well-defined** 

### 3 **that would be applicable here.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. LLENZA: Okay, 1-11. DOE seeks** 

### 6 **comments on whether wet-running circulator** 

### 7 **type pumps should be covered under this** 

### 8 **rulemaking. It is pretty straightforward.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?** 

### 10 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for the** 

### 11 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 12 **The Hydraulic Institute does not** 

### 13 **recommend that circulators be included in this** 

### 14 **rulemaking. I have a long definition of what** 

### 15 **a circulator pump is that I will provide you** 

### 16 **in our written comments.** 

### 17 **But the key thing that we want to** 

### 18 **point out is that this question specifically** 

### 19 **asked about wet-running circulator types. In** 

### 20 **the U.S. market, there are other types besides** 

### 21 **wet rotor pumps or wet-running. In** 

### 22 **particular, there are standard mechanical seal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 pumps that are either close coupled directly**  

### 2 **to a motor -- we call those compact** 

### 3 **circulators -- and there are also mechanical** 

### 4 **seal pumps with a flexible coupled to a motor.** 

### 5 **We call those 3P circulators.** 

### 6 **So, there is a difference in the** 

### 7 **market. There are other products being sold** 

### 8 **here that are not wet-running as described in** 

### 9 **this question.** 

### 10 **So, just to give you some further** 

### 11 **explanation on HI's position, comparative to** 

### 12 **the European market, the U.S. market for** 

### 13 **circulators is very small. Thus, it is not a** 

### 14 **large opportunity to save energy.** 

### 15 **Secondly, the EU methodology being** 

### 16 **recommended, the MEI specifically, is not** 

### 17 **applicable to circulators because the pump and** 

### 18 **specialty motor are integral to each other.** 

### 19 **The third thing, the investment** 

### 20 **required by U.S. circulator manufacturers will** 

### 21 **be large to develop high-efficiency levels** 

### 22 **with very limited possibility for a solid**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 return on investment.**  

### 2 **And fourth, in most situations, due** 

### 3 **to the higher cost of the high-efficiency** 

### 4 **product and the relatively low cost of energy** 

### 5 **in the U.S., the return on investments to** 

### 6 **consumers would also be very extended.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary** 

### 8 **Fernstrom?** 

### 9 **MR. FERNSTROM: The California** 

### 10 **Investor Owned Utilities are disappointed that** 

### 11 **the Hydraulic Institute doesn't recommend** 

### 12 **including circulator pumps. The cost of** 

### 13 **energy in the United States is now low,** 

### 14 **particularly in California. These products** 

### 15 **typically have an annual energy use exceeding** 

### 16 **550 kilowatt hours. They have a total market** 

### 17 **energy use of 10,400 kilowatt hours and a** 

### 18 **sales volume of $1.9 million shipped annually.** 

### 19 **We will be providing additional** 

### 20 **information on the significance of this and** 

### 21 **highly recommend that circulator pumps be** 

### 22 **included because the manufacturers do have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 efficient models available, and they represent**  

### 2 **a significant energy-saving opportunity for** 

### 3 **low cost.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **Ken?** 

### 6 **MR. NAPOLITANO: I would just ask** 

### 7 **for clarification from Gary. Do your figures** 

### 8 **in terms of energy consumption, number of** 

### 9 **units, and so forth, include those installed** 

### 10 **in residential applications?** 

### 11 **MR. FERNSTROM: They include those** 

### 12 **installed in multi-family applications, which** 

### 13 **we consider to be commercial in accordance** 

### 14 **with utility tariffs.** 

### 15 **MR. NAPOLITANO: But exclude** 

### 16 **single-family homes?** 

### 17 **MR. FERNSTROM: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Neal, to further** 

### 19 **expand the record here, I was wondering, did** 

### 20 **you say before -- maybe I lost track -- what** 

### 21 **those of you who have been negotiating or** 

### 22 **meeting, what your posture is on circulator-**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 type pumps?**  

### 2 **MR. ELLIOTT: I didn't make any** 

### 3 **comments about circulators.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to do** 

### 5 **that now?** 

### 6 **MR. ELLIOTT: I do not.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ken?** 

### 8 **MR. NAPOLITANO: I would just make** 

### 9 **one more comment relative to the EU. As Mark** 

### 10 **stated, we can get more specific numbers.** 

### 11 **Because of the type or the propensity to use** 

### 12 **hot water for heating in Europe, which is the** 

### 13 **norm, and the exception in the United States,** 

### 14 **there are over 150 million small circulators** 

### 15 **installed in Europe in single- and two-family** 

### 16 **townhouse, that type of three-four flat-type** 

### 17 **properties.** 

### 18 **And so, it was a substantial number** 

### 19 **for the EU because hot water is how buildings,** 

### 20 **especially single-family homes, are heated in** 

### 21 **the EU. And so, that was the driver for them** 

### 22 **doing it. So, there is a much smaller**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 population in the U.S. And then, of course,**  

### 2 **it is our understanding that residential is** 

### 3 **not in the purview of this discussion.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 5 **Yes, Mark?** 

### 6 **MR. HANDZEL: And just to further** 

### 7 **add to Ken's statements, not only are those** 

### 8 **homes in Europe heated with hot water, but** 

### 9 **they also use the same device to heat potable** 

### 10 **water, which means the circulators are** 

### 11 **typically running year-round. And that is not** 

### 12 **typically the most common application in the** 

### 13 **U.S. So, they would only operate partially** 

### 14 **for the year.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I got it.** 

### 16 **We are going to move on.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, I just want to** 

### 18 **emphasize 1-12, and that is about market size.** 

### 19 **You should read the question and provide us** 

### 20 **with as much informationpossible for this** 

### 21 **one.** 

### 22 **MR. HANDZEL: Yes. So, Mark**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 Handzel, speaking for the Hydraulic Institute.**  

### 2 **The Hydraulic Institute does not** 

### 3 **have specific detail on the market size for** 

### 4 **wet-running circulators in the U.S. So, that** 

### 5 **is something that we will work to try to** 

### 6 **develop some more information to share that** 

### 7 **with the DOE.** 

### 8 **The additional question here where** 

### 9 **it asked, you know, how is the market split,** 

### 10 **this is kind of a consensus shell vote between** 

### 11 **the HI members who manufacture circulators,** 

### 12 **and we felt -- this is covering all types of** 

### 13 **circulators -- that roughly 70 percent are** 

### 14 **used in residential applications and 30** 

### 15 **percent go into commercial applications.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: You say that was a** 

### 17 **"shell vote"?** 

### 18 **MR. HANDZEL: Well, it was sitting** 

### 19 **around a room with a group of manufacturers in** 

### 20 **a committee meeting, and we threw out some** 

### 21 **numbers and generally agreed on 70/30 was the** 

### 22 **split.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: And the Hydraulic**  

### 2 **Institute doesn't collect this data** 

### 3 **systematically at this point?** 

### 4 **MR. HANDZEL: Yes, we do not.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 6 **MR. FERNSTROM: I would like to ask** 

### 7 **for a clarification on the difference between** 

### 8 **residential and commercial. As I understand** 

### 9 **it, these pumps are manufactured and may go** 

### 10 **into either application.** 

### 11 **In general, where DOE has had** 

### 12 **commercial rulemakings and commercial products** 

### 13 **have coincidentally gone into residential** 

### 14 **applications, they are still being commercial** 

### 15 **products. It should not matter what the** 

### 16 **market share is.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? Neal,** 

### 18 **please. No? Yes, I am looking over here,** 

### 19 **this side of the room, if you wish to respond** 

### 20 **to that. I am going to Meg next after that.** 

### 21 **MR. HANDZEL: It sounded like a** 

### 22 **question to me to DOE, asking on regulating**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 residential products. Our point was they are**  

### 2 **predominantly a residential product.** 

### 3 **Circulators are predominantly a residential** 

### 4 **product. So, that is the point that we were** 

### 5 **making --** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Got you.** 

### 7 **MR. HANDZEL: -- just because DOE** 

### 8 **specifically says that they can't regulate** 

### 9 **residential products.** 

### 10 **MS. KOHL: Just real quick as a** 

### 11 **point of clarification, so this is, again, the** 

### 12 **issue that John was talking about earlier as** 

### 13 **far as what would be considered a pump that is** 

### 14 **a type of covered equipment as set forth in** 

### 15 **EPCA and what we are looking at standards for** 

### 16 **in this rulemaking. I think that is kind of** 

### 17 **where the split is coming down.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy, thank you.** 

### 19 **Go ahead, Gary.** 

### 20 **MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I am not sure** 

### 21 **I understood that response.** 

### 22 **MS. KOHL: So, this is Betsy Kohl**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 again.**  

### 2 **The pump is the covered type of** 

### 3 **equipment, right? But what we are looking at** 

### 4 **setting standards for in this framework** 

### 5 **document at this time is pumps for commercial** 

### 6 **applications.** 

### 7 **MR. FERNSTROM: Well, but my** 

### 8 **comment was these pumps are sold into** 

### 9 **commercial applications.** 

### 10 **MS. KOHL: We will need to take a** 

### 11 **look at that then.** 

### 12 **MR. LLENZA: I think it is a little** 

### 13 **bit more complicated-- it depends on how they** 

### 14 **come off the ‘‘assembly line.’’ There is a lot** 

### 15 **more that is involved. If it is installed on** 

### 16 **the same assembly line for the same pump, we** 

### 17 **don't care where you put it. It is going to** 

### 18 **be covered.** 

### 19 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. That is an** 

### 20 **excellent response to my question. Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg, please.** 

### 22 **MS. WALTNER: Yes, my question is a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 follow-up question to Mark's, whether your**  

### 2 **residential included multi-family or was it** 

### 3 **just single-family residential?** 

### 4 **MR. HANDZEL: So, the best way that** 

### 5 **we would break it down is that multi-family** 

### 6 **has different classes. If you were in a two** 

### 7 **or-three-flat building, that would still fall** 

### 8 **in a residential class. But when you get into** 

### 9 **a multi-family high-rise building, that would** 

### 10 **be on the commercial side.** 

### 11 **MS. WALTNER: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was** 

### 13 **Mark. Thank you.** 

### 14 **Neal?** 

### 15 **MR. ELLIOTT: Related to sort of a** 

### 16 **different question -- and this is directed to** 

### 17 **the DOE -- is multi-family, how does the** 

### 18 **Department view multi-family, commercial,** 

### 19 **residential? And do you have a definition** 

### 20 **that you can direct us to?** 

### 21 **MR. LLENZA: Again, I just want to** 

### 22 **point out, this is part of what we are trying**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 to do here. Part of what we are asking**  

### 2 **industry is to help us define the scope of** 

### 3 **covered products. And so, there will be a** 

### 4 **section here on definitions. We will go over** 

### 5 **that. And the Department is open to input** 

### 6 **from the industry.** 

### 7 **MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott.** 

### 8 **And I guess a clarification on that** 

### 9 **is, my question was, you know, has the** 

### 10 **Department in other rulemakings made a** 

### 11 **determination of multi-family, as to whether** 

### 12 **it is commercial or residential? And it was** 

### 13 **just a point of clarification, not with** 

### 14 **respect to this rulemaking, but more general.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky?** 

### 16 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I am not a** 

### 17 **lawyer, but I think I am going to get this** 

### 18 **right.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **So, the covered product is what** 

### 21 **determines. So, for furnaces, for example,** 

### 22 **the covered product is the furnace. Whether**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 it goes into an apartment in a multi-family**  

### 2 **building or a single-family house, it is still** 

### 3 **a furnace.** 

### 4 **Now, with pumps, we are here to** 

### 5 **define the scope of coverage. So, I think we** 

### 6 **are asking questions about this, and we are** 

### 7 **not going to go on the record to say one way** 

### 8 **or another at this point.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis? And** 

### 10 **then, to Tom.** 

### 11 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr with** 

### 12 **Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance.** 

### 13 **Might I suggest that you align what** 

### 14 **the definition of commercial and residential** 

### 15 **with the International Conservation Code or** 

### 16 **even some other, maybe 90.1, ASHRAE 90.1. But** 

### 17 **they clearly define what commercial is, and it** 

### 18 **is kind of this discussion you are having as** 

### 19 **to whether a multi-story flat or an apartment** 

### 20 **building is commercial or residential. And it** 

### 21 **makes a clear definition of what those are.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That is worth**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 considering.**  

### 2 **Tom Eckman?** 

### 3 **MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I am not sure,** 

### 4 **but I suspect that there is a fair amount of** 

### 5 **imperfect information about where that pump** 

### 6 **ends up, once it is manufactured, if it is a** 

### 7 **circulator pump. And it certainly was the** 

### 8 **case when we had other appliances like air** 

### 9 **conditions that were single-phased air** 

### 10 **conditioners that ended up in commercial** 

### 11 **buildings, not three-phase air conditioners.** 

### 12 **And so, we, basically, did the** 

### 13 **analysis on the presumption that some fraction** 

### 14 **would end up in that usage level as opposed to** 

### 15 **a commercial building. And I think that is** 

### 16 **probably the likely outcome here, is that we** 

### 17 **won't know where most of those pumps go, but** 

### 18 **we will have some idea where the fraction** 

### 19 **might go. And they will have a duty cycle** 

### 20 **that is different because they are in an X** 

### 21 **application as opposed to a Y application.** 

### 22 **That is going to change the economics of where**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 you might set the standard. But it is a**  

### 2 **covered product, and the distributor and the** 

### 3 **manufacturer have no idea where it is going to** 

### 4 **end up when someone buys it for installation.** 

### 5 **So, we might know the market channel that it** 

### 6 **is going to go to, but that is about it.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 8 **MR. FERNSTROM: I would just like** 

### 9 **to make the point that we are having a** 

### 10 **discussion here whether these things are** 

### 11 **commercial or residential. This is the** 

### 12 **Department of Energy. And regardless of where** 

### 13 **they go, they have a large energy-saving** 

### 14 **opportunity for a low cost. And therefore, we** 

### 15 **ought to take advantage of that opportunity,** 

### 16 **not quibble over whether they are residential** 

### 17 **or commercial.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ken?** 

### 19 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano** 

### 20 **from the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 21 **I don't think our point is -- maybe** 

### 22 **we are misstating our point. Our issue is not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 around commercial or residential. I was**  

### 2 **simply making a point that in Europe there is** 

### 3 **over 150 million in residential applications,** 

### 4 **and that is why the EU chose to regulate it.** 

### 5 **There are a lot of them.** 

### 6 **I think the salient point is, in** 

### 7 **fact, what you just said, which is there is a** 

### 8 **lot of energy savings at stake and a very low** 

### 9 **cost to achieve it. And I would say that we** 

### 10 **differ in that opinion. And so, it probably** 

### 11 **is useful to ultimately drive to the facts** 

### 12 **around that question.** 

### 13 **MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. I would** 

### 14 **like -- Gary Fernstrom -- to point out that** 

### 15 **there is a significant market share, and data** 

### 16 **we will supply will show that.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza** 

### 19 **from the Department.** 

### 20 **I just want to add that,** 

### 21 **statutorily, pumps are not defined. So, it** 

### 22 **will be up to this process to define what is a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 pump, commercial, industrial, whatever you**  

### 2 **want to call it, under this rulemaking. And** 

### 3 **as part of this process we will try to** 

### 4 **cast/cover the largest amount of pumpspossible** 

### 5 **based on the information provided during this** 

### 6 **rulemaking.** 

### 7 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom.** 

### 8 **Thank you. That is great news. I** 

### 9 **have confidence in DOE.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's move on.** 

### 11 **MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, again, DOE** 

### 12 **is considering excluding self-priming pumps** 

### 13 **and pumps designed for firefighting** 

### 14 **applications. This has been mentioned before.** 

### 15 **So, we Request for Comments on this issue,** 

### 16 **1-15. DOE requests comments on the technical** 

### 17 **features and applications for firefighting** 

### 18 **pumps, self-priming pumps, that would allow it** 

### 19 **to determine whether these pumps should be** 

### 20 **covered or not covered.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: We have touched on** 

### 22 **this, but I don't think we got into the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 details yet.**  

### 2 **Steve Schmitz?** 

### 3 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.** 

### 4 **Steve Schmitz, Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 5 **I have a longer statement that I** 

### 6 **will submit later.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. SCHMITZ: But I will give you a** 

### 9 **few brief words here.** 

### 10 **Technical features for fire pumps** 

### 11 **are typically not conducive to do optimal pump** 

### 12 **efficiency. However, because of minimal** 

### 13 **operating times for pumps in this category,** 

### 14 **they offer minimal potential energy savings by** 

### 15 **requiring optimal design efficiency. And** 

### 16 **there is, therefore, no compelling case for** 

### 17 **change.** 

### 18 **To the contrary, requiring** 

### 19 **efficiency optimized fire pumps would actually** 

### 20 **increase the pump horsepower required,** 

### 21 **increasing the size of the motor, controller,** 

### 22 **and the wiring. This results in increased**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 costs and power consumption, and increases the**  

### 2 **energy consumption for this category. This** 

### 3 **defeats the intent of the DOE energy-savings** 

### 4 **initiative.** 

### 5 **Finally, a requirement for fire** 

### 6 **pumps to be optimized for efficiency is** 

### 7 **projected to have a significant negative** 

### 8 **impact due to the approval testing and** 

### 9 **approval process cost of approximately** 

### 10 **$100,000 per pump model, exclusive of the** 

### 11 **design development cost, in order to replace** 

### 12 **existing models.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 14 **Additional comments, the specifics** 

### 15 **related to firefighting pumps? Yes, Steve** 

### 16 **Rosenstock.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 18 **EEI.** 

### 19 **Again, in my mind, it is a** 

### 20 **clarification. Are we talking about high-rise** 

### 21 **buildings that have fire pumps that are** 

### 22 **specifically for the fire prevention systems?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 Are we talking about the pumps that are on the**  

### 2 **back of a fire truck that are connected to a** 

### 3 **fire hydrant to fight a fire? Or both?** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Albert?** 

### 5 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic** 

### 6 **Institute.** 

### 7 **We are talking about pumps in** 

### 8 **buildings, not fire trucks.** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Steven** 

### 10 **Rosenstock, EEI.** 

### 11 **Thank you, and I would just like to** 

### 12 **note for the record that, under Federal** 

### 13 **Regulation Notice that was put out, I think it** 

### 14 **was last year or the year before, that for the** 

### 15 **fire pump motors there are now minimum energy** 

### 16 **efficiency requirements for fire pump motors** 

### 17 **that have been published and are now in the** 

### 18 **Code of Federal Regulations.** 

### 19 **Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer?** 

### 21 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 22 **We agreed that it makes sense to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 exclude fire pumps. I think it is just a**  

### 2 **question of how do we define them, so that** 

### 3 **they are not used in other clean water** 

### 4 **applications. I think a similar issue has** 

### 5 **come up in the motors docket, and it is just a** 

### 6 **question of, you know, is there a** 

### 7 **certification or something that we can use** 

### 8 **just to make sure that they are used for that** 

### 9 **purpose only?** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 11 **Albert?** 

### 12 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic** 

### 13 **Institute.** 

### 14 **Fire pumps are specifically** 

### 15 **designed for fire protection. They do not** 

### 16 **operate at its best efficiency point. They** 

### 17 **are not designed to operate there. They are** 

### 18 **actually designed to operate to the left-hand** 

### 19 **side of the best efficiency point because they** 

### 20 **are required by Code to be able to pump at 150** 

### 21 **percent, and they are required to lift water** 

### 22 **at 15 feet at 150 percent. They also have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 requirements that the shutoff head has to be**  

### 2 **maintained at a certain point.** 

### 3 **Technically, it is used for -- it** 

### 4 **could be used for clean water, but it is not** 

### 5 **normally used because it is expensive. It** 

### 6 **can't have seals in it. It has to have** 

### 7 **packing. That is done because the fire** 

### 8 **protection people don't want to a failure** 

### 9 **during a fire. So, they let the water leak,** 

### 10 **which, if you let the water leak, you are** 

### 11 **losing water, and therefore, it is not** 

### 12 **efficient.** 

### 13 **So, they are not designed for that,** 

### 14 **never were intended to be used for that. They** 

### 15 **are intended to be used for fire protection** 

### 16 **only. They are regulated by the National Fire** 

### 17 **Protection Association, and they are certified** 

### 18 **as meeting that NFPA 20 certification by the** 

### 19 **Underwriters Laboratory and Factory Mutual.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. HUBER: And so, they carry a** 

### 22 **stamp to that effect.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Schmitz?**  

### 2 **MR. SCHMITZ: Al actually just made** 

### 3 **my point.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, just to** 

### 6 **be clear, there is a different certification** 

### 7 **process for these pumps.** 

### 8 **Okay. Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Neal?** 

### 10 **MR. ELLIOTT: Just to go back to** 

### 11 **the motor rule, I would note that the** 

### 12 **inclusion of fire pump motors within the motor** 

### 13 **rule was a specific category that was set out,** 

### 14 **had a lower efficiency than other products,** 

### 15 **and it was explicitly included because of the** 

### 16 **unique nature of those motors and the** 

### 17 **requirement that those motors receive UL and** 

### 18 **Fire Certification.** 

### 19 **So, again, it is a special product,** 

### 20 **and it should be treated specially. And just** 

### 21 **to reiterate what Joanna said, we do not think** 

### 22 **it should be covered in this rulemaking.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. The question**  

### 2 **is whether we take a break now. I think** 

### 3 **probably we are about due. We have got a** 

### 4 **little bit more to cover here, right?** 

### 5 **MR. LLENZA: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's do take** 

### 7 **a break now. It is 10:45. We typically break** 

### 8 **for 15 minutes.** 

### 9 **For those of you who are new to the** 

### 10 **building, or those of you who are not new, you** 

### 11 **must wear your visitor's badge visible above** 

### 12 **your waist. They are very serious about** 

### 13 **security around here.** 

### 14 **There are restrooms at both ends of** 

### 15 **the hall. There is a coffee shop on the** 

### 16 **ground floor. If you take the elevators,** 

### 17 **there is a coffee shop on the ground floor** 

### 18 **just about directly beneath us; off the** 

### 19 **elevator and hang a left.** 

### 20 **Please go quickly. Sometimes they** 

### 21 **are not very efficient at Dunkin' Donuts.** 

### 22 **(Laughter.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 And we will resume at 11:00.**  

### 2 **So, thanks. Hey, listen, we have** 

### 3 **got a really good start on the day. The** 

### 4 **quality of the comments has been excellent.** 

### 5 **Let's keep that going.** 

### 6 **Thank you.** 

### 7 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 8 **went off the record at 10:45 a.m. and went** 

### 9 **back on the record at 11:05 a.m.)** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And once** 

### 11 **again, the quality of the comment has been** 

### 12 **excellent, and I am very eager for that** 

### 13 **continue. And so, we are going to proceed** 

### 14 **where we left off, and Alison is going to be** 

### 15 **at the podium.** 

### 16 **Alison?** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.** 

### 18 **So, the last slide, we were just** 

### 19 **talking about possible exclusions for** 

### 20 **firefighting and self-priming pumps. Anyhow,** 

### 21 **there are coverage parameters that DOE is** 

### 22 **considering. DOE is interested in specific**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 reasons for why they should be in place.**  

### 2 **And here, we are just acknowledging** 

### 3 **the parameters that the stakeholders have** 

### 4 **suggested in some of the meetings with DOE.** 

### 5 **So, those are listed here related to flow** 

### 6 **head, horsepower, and temperature. And the** 

### 7 **stakeholders say they have presented these to** 

### 8 **generally align with the EU scope, although I** 

### 9 **want to note that they are not exactly the** 

### 10 **same.** 

### 11 **So, we did a little bit of estimate** 

### 12 **on how many pumps these would exclude. And** 

### 13 **so, those numbers are shown on the bottom** 

### 14 **here. We think it is about 48 percent of** 

### 15 **pumps by model availability and about two** 

### 16 **thirds by shipment.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Steve** 

### 18 **first.** 

### 19 **MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz,** 

### 20 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 21 **If we could go back one slide,** 

### 22 **please, Alison? Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 There is a typographical error on**  

### 2 **this slide. The second point of 295 feet** 

### 3 **should say 459 feet. The 295 feet represents** 

### 4 **the max head from the EU standard for four** 

### 5 **pole operation, and at two-pole it is 459** 

### 6 **feet.** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.** 

### 8 **MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer.** 

### 9 **I just want to clarify, that is a** 

### 10 **clarification from what was presented earlier.** 

### 11 **So, I think that is why there is some** 

### 12 **confusion. I think right now we are** 

### 13 **suggesting 459. There may have been something** 

### 14 **previously --** 

### 15 **MR. SCHMITZ: Right, which aligns** 

### 16 **with the EU standard, yes.** 

### 17 **MS. MAUER: And the EU standard has** 

### 18 **separate maximum head for two-pole and four** 

### 19 **pole motors. I think what we are suggesting** 

### 20 **now is a single maximum head regardless of** 

### 21 **speed. Is that right, Steve?** 

### 22 **MR. SCHMITZ: That is what you are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 suggesting or we --**  

### 2 **MS. MAUER: That is what I thought** 

### 3 **we were --** 

### 4 **MR. SCHMITZ: We are saying the** 

### 5 **hydraulic picket fence, if we call it that,** 

### 6 **the max head that would be involved, no matter** 

### 7 **what the speed, would be 459 feet.** 

### 8 **MS. MAUER: Yes. And I am just** 

### 9 **clarifying that that is different than what we** 

### 10 **may have presented previously to DOE and a** 

### 11 **little bit different than the EU.** 

### 12 **MR. SCHMITZ: It aligns with EU,** 

### 13 **yes.** 

### 14 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to clarify,** 

### 15 **this is the only information I have seen** 

### 16 **before. And so, we certainly don't have any** 

### 17 **numbers involving the 495 that you -- 459,** 

### 18 **sorry.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, just to confirm,** 

### 20 **Steve, make the point again about 459.** 

### 21 **MR. SCHMITZ: Four hundred fifty** 

### 22 **nine is the max head, as defined by the EU**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 standard.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Got** 

### 3 **it.** 

### 4 **MS. WALTNER: Sorry. Just a** 

### 5 **clarification on --** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg, please.** 

### 7 **MS. WALTNER: And so, in the EU** 

### 8 **standard is it max head regardless of speed as** 

### 9 **well? Or I think that is part of the** 

### 10 **confusion.** 

### 11 **MR. SCHMITZ: It was max head at** 

### 12 **two-pole speed.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 14 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Maybe I could just** 

### 15 **get a little -- two-pole, four-pole, right?** 

### 16 **Two-pole run twice as fast as four-pole** 

### 17 **motors. So, it is kind of inconsequential** 

### 18 **once you say 495 feet because you are not** 

### 19 **going to get there with running at half-speed.** 

### 20 **You won't be able to generate that much.** 

### 21 **So, I think the EU had some** 

### 22 **subcategories that said, if it was four-pole,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 you could get up to here, and if it was two**  

### 2 **pole, you could get up to here. But, once you** 

### 3 **define the max, it becomes inconsequential.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Got it.** 

### 5 **Okay. Have we clarified that one? I think we** 

### 6 **did.** 

### 7 **So, Steve Rosenstock, go ahead.** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just quickly, when** 

### 9 **you say "stakeholders," are you saying both** 

### 10 **the Hydraulic Institute and the energy** 

### 11 **efficiency advocates? Is this a joint --** 

### 12 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, this is** 

### 13 **made in one of the ex parte meetings with DOE** 

### 14 **and, also, in the technical meeting between** 

### 15 **HI, the stakeholders, and the technical** 

### 16 **consultant.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And then,** 

### 18 **just a quick followup. With the parameter of** 

### 19 **greater -- so, it is greater than and equal to** 

### 20 **1 horsepower and, then, less than or equal to** 

### 21 **200 horsepower, correct?** 

### 22 **MS. WILLIAMS: That is my**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 understanding.**  

### 2 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Because,** 

### 3 **just as a quick thought there, by having a 1-** 

### 4 **horsepower minimum, doesn't that exclude a lot** 

### 5 **of circulator pumps?** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: That is an** 

### 7 **interesting question.** 

### 8 **Okay. Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 9 **MR. FERNSTROM: Seemingly, it** 

### 10 **would. So, as we consider wanting to include** 

### 11 **circulator pumps, we should make sure that the** 

### 12 **horsepower minimum coincides with however we** 

### 13 **come out on that.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 15 **I am eager for us to keep going.** 

### 16 **MS. WILLIAMS: Sure.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, well, no, we are** 

### 18 **not done yet. Steve? And perhaps Albert.** 

### 19 **Steve Schmitz?** 

### 20 **MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz,** 

### 21 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 22 **Sorry. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, we want**  

### 2 **this. This is good. Keep going.** 

### 3 **MR. SCHMITZ: The Hydraulic** 

### 4 **Institute would appreciate better** 

### 5 **understanding how the numbers in the graph** 

### 6 **here, in the chart here, were reached, how** 

### 7 **they were calculated and how you got to that.** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, quickly,** 

### 9 **as was demonstrated in the framework, we** 

### 10 **pulled about 115 manufacturer catalogs from** 

### 11 **the PUMP-FLO desktop software and pulled in** 

### 12 **pump models out of those. And then, we had to** 

### 13 **do some individual work with these. We** 

### 14 **excluded 50-hertz pumps, excluded wastewater** 

### 15 **pumps, went to the manufacturers' websites and** 

### 16 **tried to identify pump categories.** 

### 17 **And so, we actually have head flow,** 

### 18 **horsepower, and temperature from the pump flow** 

### 19 **information that we used for the model** 

### 20 **availability estimates. And the shipment** 

### 21 **estimates were done by a market research** 

### 22 **consultant, based on 2010 Census data. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 these are all strictly estimates, and, you**  

### 2 **know, they might change if we receive** 

### 3 **additional information on them.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Albert first.** 

### 5 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic** 

### 6 **Institute.** 

### 7 **Alison, since this parameter has** 

### 8 **now changed to 459 feet of head, would it** 

### 9 **change this chart?** 

### 10 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it would change** 

### 11 **this chart probably significantly. As it** 

### 12 **states in the framework document, a lot of** 

### 13 **pump models were excluded here because of** 

### 14 **head, especially the multi-stage pumps, which** 

### 15 **naturally have higher head.** 

### 16 **So, I would suspect, yes, these** 

### 17 **numbers would change. And we do have some** 

### 18 **discussion in the framework document about how** 

### 19 **that head effect would work. As will go** 

### 20 **farther with the EU, if you are only testing** 

### 21 **on certain stages, the head limit might have** 

### 22 **some different impacts than it would if you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 are actually looking at all stage versions.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?** 

### 3 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for the** 

### 4 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 5 **Alison, did you guys account for** 

### 6 **pump manufacturers that aren't in PUMP-FLO?** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: No, we have not done** 

### 8 **that. So, this is just an estimate about 50** 

### 9 **percent of the market that we have. So, this,** 

### 10 **again, would change with any additional** 

### 11 **information we receive.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 13 **MR. NAPOLITANO: And ultimately, of** 

### 14 **course, we can hone these numbers. But, even** 

### 15 **at the 295 (sic) feet, if I looked at the** 

### 16 **first two categories, end suction close** 

### 17 **coupled and end suction frame mounted, which** 

### 18 **are the largest-volume pumps, I believe, or at** 

### 19 **least from an energy consumption standpoint,** 

### 20 **in the mix.** 

### 21 **Just inside those parameters, the** 

### 22 **number of 43 and 41 percent just don't seem to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 make sense. You know, it would seem like it**  

### 2 **would be more like 80 percent. So, you have** 

### 3 **got to refine those?** 

### 4 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yes, I mean,** 

### 5 **we are certainly open to refining these** 

### 6 **estimates. They were basically done just to** 

### 7 **give a quick understanding of what these** 

### 8 **parameters might do in terms of the market.** 

### 9 **Yes, again, we only have part of the market.** 

### 10 **It is also not necessarily all** 

### 11 **clean water pumps in here because we did have** 

### 12 **to do the filtering on that, you know, kind of** 

### 13 **manually looking at all catalogs. So, it is** 

### 14 **possible there are other pump types in here** 

### 15 **that are kind of skewing.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, individuals who** 

### 17 **attend these meetings on a consistent basis,** 

### 18 **it is a constant refrain that the Department** 

### 19 **of Energy is asking for data. And so, the** 

### 20 **question is, does the Hydraulic Institute, do** 

### 21 **you gather this kind of data right now? Ken?** 

### 22 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, we could**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 assist in this particular discussion around**  

### 2 **this model availability in terms of what** 

### 3 **percentage of the products fit in the** 

### 4 **parameters of the scope. We would be able to** 

### 5 **assist with hard data on that.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: That would be very** 

### 7 **helpful and the Department would really** 

### 8 **appreciate that, and the earlier, the better.** 

### 9 **These two gentlemen, I didn't get** 

### 10 **your names earlier.** 

### 11 **MR. CASE: Greg Case with Pump** 

### 12 **Design, Development & Diagnostics.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And?** 

### 14 **MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka from** 

### 15 **Smith & Loveless.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. MRKVICKA: And we are both** 

### 18 **members of the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, Greg, you are** 

### 20 **next in the queue.** 

### 21 **MR. CASE: Alison, my question was,** 

### 22 **does this also include the ANSI pump models in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 this?**  

### 2 **MS. WILLIAMS: It does.** 

### 3 **MR. CASE: Okay.** 

### 4 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, the framework** 

### 5 **also states that the temperature exclusions** 

### 6 **would be lower if we took out the ANSI** 

### 7 **chemical process pump.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes? Okay,** 

### 9 **Alison.** 

### 10 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, this was** 

### 11 **basically just requesting comment on this.** 

### 12 **Again, DOE is not necessarily considering the** 

### 13 **parameters proposed. So, we would like more** 

### 14 **information on those parameters that were** 

### 15 **proposed, either that were up there or any** 

### 16 **others that people would like to suggest. And** 

### 17 **DOE especially seeks comment on -- sorry --** 

### 18 **the estimates of pumps. We would like more** 

### 19 **data on pumps that could be excluded from** 

### 20 **this.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: And the Hydraulic** 

### 22 **Institute will supply some of that, right?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Likely.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Other sources that** 

### 3 **come to mind before we move on?** 

### 4 **(No response.)** 

### 5 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, next we are** 

### 6 **going to talk about the definitions that DOE** 

### 7 **is considering for pumps. And so, currently,** 

### 8 **these definitions are based on the equipment** 

### 9 **categories that you saw earlier that DOE is** 

### 10 **considering for coverage.** 

### 11 **Most of them have been developed** 

### 12 **after reviewing the definitions in the EU** 

### 13 **clean water pump regulation. And we have also** 

### 14 **developed some additional definitions based on** 

### 15 **other categories that the EU did not consider.** 

### 16 **So, again, these may change. Right** 

### 17 **now, they don't have any parameters in them,** 

### 18 **as the EU does, because those are not being** 

### 19 **considered at the moment. So, eventually, the** 

### 20 **specific parameters, like head and flow, if** 

### 21 **there are any, could be added to these.** 

### 22 **So, I am not going to read all of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 these individually. We will just look at them**  

### 2 **and have some comments at the end.** 

### 3 **So, again, we are starting with** 

### 4 **pump, rotodynamic water pump, and then, after** 

### 5 **that, it starts with the individual categories** 

### 6 **that we looked at earlier. So, these are just** 

### 7 **the categories that we saw.** 

### 8 **So, DOE would like comment on any** 

### 9 **of the suggested definitions for pumps,** 

### 10 **whether they are sufficient to allow** 

### 11 **determination of what is covered and in what** 

### 12 **category your equipment might fit, and just a** 

### 13 **rather specific note on what could be used to** 

### 14 **define the axial/propeller mixed flow pumps in** 

### 15 **terms of specific speed or other parameters.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's start** 

### 17 **with the definitions on slide 32. That is** 

### 18 **where we are right now. Mark?** 

### 19 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel,** 

### 20 **speaking for the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 21 **The Hydraulic Institute has** 

### 22 **clearly-defined HI/ANSI definitions of pumps**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 that are considered standards in the industry**  

### 2 **by the pump manufacturers and their** 

### 3 **constituents. We do not feel that the DOE** 

### 4 **should initiate the use of another set of** 

### 5 **definitions for this rulemaking, primarily** 

### 6 **because we have these standards. They have** 

### 7 **been in the industry for a long time, and we** 

### 8 **feel that they are the way that products** 

### 9 **should be defined.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 11 **Joanna?** 

### 12 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 13 **So, we recognize the benefits of** 

### 14 **ANSI/HI definitions in the marketplace and for** 

### 15 **the industry, but we are concerned that in a** 

### 16 **regulatory environment that the ANSI/HI** 

### 17 **definitions could present some potential** 

### 18 **loopholes and, in particular, because the** 

### 19 **ANSI/HI definitions are very specific. You** 

### 20 **know, we see the possibility for making very** 

### 21 **minor alterations to a pump, such that it no** 

### 22 **longer meets that ANSI/HI definition.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 And so, our current thinking is**  

### 2 **that it would be better to define pump** 

### 3 **categories more broadly and, then, to define** 

### 4 **any necessary exclusions to reach the scope of** 

### 5 **coverage that we would like. We may have some** 

### 6 **suggested tweaks to the DOE definitions, but** 

### 7 **we think they are a good starting point.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 9 **Additional thoughts? We are going** 

### 10 **to keep -- so, the Hydraulic Institute does** 

### 11 **not wish to comment specifically on these** 

### 12 **definitions?** 

### 13 **MR. HANDZEL: We didn't develop --** 

### 14 **Mark Handzel for the Hydraulic Institute -- we** 

### 15 **didn't develop specific responses, just** 

### 16 **because we feel that it is going the wrong** 

### 17 **direction.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Then,** 

### 19 **let's look at, scan through 32, 33, and 34.** 

### 20 **And as would be reflected in the comment box** 

### 21 **on 35, let's see if anybody wishes to make** 

### 22 **specific additions, corrections,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 amplifications to these definitions.**  

### 2 **(No response.)** 

### 3 **And, of course, definitions are a** 

### 4 **complicated bit of business. So, written** 

### 5 **comments might be the best avenue here.** 

### 6 **Okay. Then, I am seeing none as I** 

### 7 **scan the room. So, we are going to move on.** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, these** 

### 9 **definitions are related to the definition of** 

### 10 **clean water, which we touched on earlier, and** 

### 11 **the framework document we presented that used** 

### 12 **the EU definition for clean water. And we are** 

### 13 **seeking comment on how best to translate the** 

### 14 **wording and units of that to the U.S. The** 

### 15 **definition seems a little vague. So, any** 

### 16 **comments to help improve that definition, as** 

### 17 **well as whether any other parameters, such as** 

### 18 **maximum solids diameter, could be added to** 

### 19 **that.** 

### 20 **And again, as we discussed before,** 

### 21 **we could alternatively do some different** 

### 22 **definitions, such as defining physical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 characteristics of the pumps themselves as**  

### 2 **opposed to the water. So, these are just** 

### 3 **things out for comment.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 6 **EEI.** 

### 7 **I didn't look in that section of** 

### 8 **the framework document, so please forgive me.** 

### 9 **But I am just kind of curious if you had a** 

### 10 **chance to look at the EU definition compared** 

### 11 **to any EPA definitions and if they are aligned** 

### 12 **at all.** 

### 13 **MS. WILLIAMS: I have not looked at** 

### 14 **that. I am not sure if -- it is something we** 

### 15 **can certainly note down.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 17 **Steve Schmitz?** 

### 18 **MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz,** 

### 19 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 20 **We are just going to reiterate the** 

### 21 **prior comment about the use and definition of** 

### 22 **the ISO 9906 standard for definition of clean**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 water.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Excellent. Okay.** 

### 3 **Thank you.** 

### 4 **Yes, Mark?** 

### 5 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for** 

### 6 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 7 **Regarding 127, the question really** 

### 8 **has to do with whether the use of the words** 

### 9 **"solid diameter" should be used in a** 

### 10 **definition of clean water. So, the members of** 

### 11 **the Hydraulic Institute wish to clarify that** 

### 12 **consideration for solids diameter is not used** 

### 13 **in any definition of clean water pumping. No** 

### 14 **solids are allowed.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, okay. Thank** 

### 16 **you.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, we are** 

### 18 **going to switch to another section. Until** 

### 19 **now, we have been focusing basically on the** 

### 20 **pump itself, and DOE has also been considering** 

### 21 **a more expansive version of pump. So, the EU** 

### 22 **has started an exploration of the pump**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 inclusive of motor and controls, and**  

### 2 **stakeholders in this room have also suggested** 

### 3 **following such an approach. The primary** 

### 4 **reason for this approach is to capture the** 

### 5 **benefits of variable speed drives, primarily** 

### 6 **in variable-load applications with low static** 

### 7 **head.** 

### 8 **However, DOE realizes that** 

### 9 **manufacturers can't control how a pump or a** 

### 10 **VSD is used. In some cases, the same pump** 

### 11 **will be used in both constant and variable** 

### 12 **load applications. So, any analysis that will** 

### 13 **be done will look at all the applications out** 

### 14 **there, including the baseline conditions,** 

### 15 **whether they are currently throttled, constant** 

### 16 **load, whatever, to determine whether or not** 

### 17 **the VSDs would save energy in the field.** 

### 18 **So, just kind of a background** 

### 19 **review, and we are looking at pumps a little** 

### 20 **more broadly. DOE believes that most pump** 

### 21 **types are generally sold without motors.** 

### 22 **However, some of the most common pump types,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 including end suction close coupled, most of**  

### 2 **the time are shipped with a motor by the** 

### 3 **manufacturer.** 

### 4 **DOE believes that a number of pumps** 

### 5 **sold with motors and VSDs by the pump** 

### 6 **manufacturer is much smaller, at approximately** 

### 7 **2 percent, although there may be some** 

### 8 **application categories, such as circulators or** 

### 9 **water pressure booster pumps, where there is** 

### 10 **more of those sold in a package.** 

### 11 **So, DOE is interested in data on** 

### 12 **how pumps are sold, including whether they are** 

### 13 **sold alone, with a motor, with a motor and** 

### 14 **VSD, and whether they are actually integrated** 

### 15 **or they are just kind of priced together and** 

### 16 **shipped, you know, maybe separate boxes, the** 

### 17 **same box, whatever; basically, interested in** 

### 18 **data on this by equipment category, size,** 

### 19 **application, whatever is available.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, I am looking** 

### 21 **over there to Ken or someone first because** 

### 22 **this is back to that constant refrain: DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 looking for data. And I was wondering if the**  

### 2 **Hydraulic Institute has that information, can** 

### 3 **supply that information. Or, Neal, do you** 

### 4 **wish to comment here?** 

### 5 **MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE.** 

### 6 **I wanted to get on the record** 

### 7 **indicating that, as we have suggested to the** 

### 8 **Department several times, it is probably** 

### 9 **timely to do an update on motor and motor** 

### 10 **driven equipment, energy use in the United** 

### 11 **States. The most recent comprehensive study** 

### 12 **was the 1999 study, the so-called "Xenergy** 

### 13 **Motor Market Study". We think it would be** 

### 14 **very useful -- and I am speaking on behalf, I** 

### 15 **think, of the motor industry and the motor** 

### 16 **driven equipment industry as well as many in** 

### 17 **the energy-efficiency, that a comprehensive** 

### 18 **study would benefit substantially in moving** 

### 19 **forward with these issues.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, I lost track of** 

### 21 **that. Are you suggesting the Department of** 

### 22 **Energy does that or does that in cooperation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 with the stakeholders?**  

### 2 **MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, the Department** 

### 3 **did a study, EERE. There is actually pending** 

### 4 **legislation before the Congress which would** 

### 5 **actually direct the Department to undertake** 

### 6 **such a study.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: I see.** 

### 8 **MR. ELLIOTT: Understand the cost** 

### 9 **is an issue here. We think this is a** 

### 10 **priority, though, in addressing many of these** 

### 11 **issues because we revisit them --** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes.** 

### 13 **MR. ELLIOTT: -- every time we do** 

### 14 **one of these rulemakings.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce, follow-on?** 

### 16 **MR. LUNG: Bruce Lung, Alliance to** 

### 17 **Save Energy.** 

### 18 **I would echo that request by Dr.** 

### 19 **Elliott.** 

### 20 **I would also like to point out, and** 

### 21 **perhaps ask the technical advisors, there is** 

### 22 **actually a rich portfolio of information**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 related to energy efficiency in industrial**  

### 2 **scale pumping systems that was produced by** 

### 3 **EERE's Advanced Manufacturing Office,** 

### 4 **including case studies, fact sheets, and** 

### 5 **source books. And if those resources have not** 

### 6 **been used, I would invite them to use them to** 

### 7 **inform particularly this discussion around** 

### 8 **variable-speed control of industrial pumping** 

### 9 **systems.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 11 **Rodney, thank you for being** 

### 12 **patient.** 

### 13 **MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka of** 

### 14 **Smith & Loveless, and representing the** 

### 15 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 16 **With respect to your Items 1-16 and** 

### 17 **1-17, the Hydraulic Institute does not have** 

### 18 **any of that data available to provide in those** 

### 19 **categories, and we believe acquiring that** 

### 20 **would be a pretty extensive market survey** 

### 21 **because of the wide range of categories you** 

### 22 **have.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 That being said, through our**  

### 2 **members that we have, we have an opinion on** 

### 3 **both those. And our opinion is that the pump** 

### 4 **with the motor combination would be the** 

### 5 **substantially largest market segment.** 

### 6 **Alison, on your slide 39, which was** 

### 7 **just above your first bullet point, it stated** 

### 8 **that most pump types are generally sold** 

### 9 **without motors. So, the Hydraulic Institute** 

### 10 **would like to request some additional** 

### 11 **information or background of that data, as it** 

### 12 **differs from our opinion, from that table.** 

### 13 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean, just to** 

### 14 **clarify, these are estimates by a pumps market** 

### 15 **research consultant, and we are certainly** 

### 16 **welcome to any information that is different** 

### 17 **from this.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney, from your** 

### 19 **comment, I couldn't understand. Do you have** 

### 20 **the capacity to gather this data?** 

### 21 **MR. MRKVICKA: Not at this moment,** 

### 22 **no.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Alex**  

### 2 **Boesenberg?** 

### 3 **MR. BOESENBERG: Since I won't be** 

### 4 **here after lunch, I beg the indulgence to** 

### 5 **comment on Item 12-2, in followup to Neal** 

### 6 **Elliott's statement.** 

### 7 **When addressing cumulative** 

### 8 **regulatory burden, it is often what other** 

### 9 **things are going on that will affect the** 

### 10 **industry. I would submit that the issue of** 

### 11 **the motor study is one where the DOE is under** 

### 12 **a cumulative burden, where several rulemakings** 

### 13 **could be positively influenced by that study;** 

### 14 **ergo, better data. So, again, NEMA will echo** 

### 15 **Neal's statement to please find a way to fold** 

### 16 **that study in somehow.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 18 **Yes, Tom Eckman.** 

### 19 **MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest** 

### 20 **Power and Conservation Council.** 

### 21 **This is mostly for the** 

### 22 **manufacturers in the room. It seems to me**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 that, given this standard isn't scheduled to**  

### 2 **take effect until 2019 or thereabouts, it** 

### 3 **would be interesting to know what you think** 

### 4 **the trendline looks like with respect to the** 

### 5 **sales of these units with the motor set** 

### 6 **connected to them compared to just the pump** 

### 7 **alone, and whether or not there is a trend** 

### 8 **that is moving that direction or away from it.** 

### 9 **Since, if we are thinking about a** 

### 10 **regulatory regime that might include the whole** 

### 11 **drive and motor set, knowing that that is more** 

### 12 **likely to be the case in the future than less** 

### 13 **likely to be the case in the future would be** 

### 14 **of interest in setting up which policy option** 

### 15 **you want to pursue here.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 17 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano,** 

### 18 **the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 19 **I think a couple of things. Just** 

### 20 **first to kind of expound on Rodney's point,** 

### 21 **while it is true that the Hydraulic Institute** 

### 22 **does not have this exact data definitively as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 specifically how many pumps are sold with**  

### 2 **motors, first, I want to point out that we are** 

### 3 **generally eager to share as much data as** 

### 4 **possible with everyone, so that we can get to** 

### 5 **the right answer.** 

### 6 **Secondly, we certainly can work** 

### 7 **towards, albeit maybe not precise, but working** 

### 8 **towards polling of the manufacturers to at** 

### 9 **least get some aggregated look of an estimate** 

### 10 **toward those data.** 

### 11 **To answer your question, first of** 

### 12 **all, we believe just notionally that the** 

### 13 **number of pumps sold with motors is higher** 

### 14 **than what was displayed there.** 

### 15 **Secondly, generally, the trend,** 

### 16 **although I wouldn't attempt to quantify the** 

### 17 **rate, is for that to increase and for the** 

### 18 **integration of speed control, whether it be a** 

### 19 **variable-speed drive or other type device, to** 

### 20 **increase as well. Certainly, it depends a lot** 

### 21 **on which pump type and category and size** 

### 22 **horsepower you are talking about. But I would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 say that the general direction is for more**  

### 2 **integration rather than less.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 4 **John Cymbalsky?** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 6 **DOE.** 

### 7 **I just want to point out that, for** 

### 8 **the manufacturers, you can enter into some** 

### 9 **agreement with our consultants to sign a** 

### 10 **confidentiality agreement, where the** 

### 11 **information that you provide to them would not** 

### 12 **be divulged to the federal government --** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Or anyone.** 

### 14 **MR. CYMBALSKY: -- if that makes** 

### 15 **you feel more comfortable moving this process** 

### 16 **along.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 18 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, it is Ken** 

### 19 **Napolitano.** 

### 20 **I think, for certain types of data,** 

### 21 **that would be something that would probably be** 

### 22 **required, and therefore, discussed. Other**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 types of data we are ready to put in the**  

### 2 **public record.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: There will be more** 

### 4 **said later in the day about how that gets** 

### 5 **done.** 

### 6 **Okay. Keep going, Alison.** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, just a few more** 

### 8 **questions on the system. DOE requests** 

### 9 **information on how often and what** 

### 10 **circumstances the intended application of the** 

### 11 **pump is known when it is sold, and is also** 

### 12 **interested in further comment on including** 

### 13 **feedback in any definition for pumps that** 

### 14 **includes motors and controls.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Rodney?** 

### 16 **MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka,** 

### 17 **Smith & Loveless, representing the Hydraulic** 

### 18 **Institute.** 

### 19 **To your Item 1-18, again, we don't** 

### 20 **have hard data to provide, but our opinion, a** 

### 21 **substantial majority of the time the** 

### 22 **manufacturer knows what the application of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 pump is for, not all the times, but a majority**  

### 2 **of the time. The end-user is the person who** 

### 3 **knows where it is all the time.** 

### 4 **So, again, in feeding off of what** 

### 5 **Ken mentioned earlier, as we start to package** 

### 6 **these and the trend is going up, incorporating** 

### 7 **an extended product approach on this would** 

### 8 **help the end-user supply this pump in a better** 

### 9 **situation to be more energy efficient. And in** 

### 10 **doing this, you remove the fragmentation that** 

### 11 **you mentioned on the earlier slide about how** 

### 12 **pumps are supplied, where various people have** 

### 13 **the different points. Bringing this all** 

### 14 **together will help optimize the pump** 

### 15 **operation.** 

### 16 **And if I may, on 1-19, it is very** 

### 17 **simple. The Hydraulic Institute agrees that** 

### 18 **feedback control is necessary to effectively** 

### 19 **operate these units.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 EEI.**  

### 2 **Just, again, in terms of variable** 

### 3 **speed drives, they are a great technology for** 

### 4 **saving energy, but I guess my thought is any** 

### 5 **sort of regulation -- the only similarity, in** 

### 6 **terms of other products, the only similar type** 

### 7 **of efficiency requirement, I will say, is with** 

### 8 **residential boilers have to have the automatic** 

### 9 **temperature resets. That is a requirement** 

### 10 **under federal law. Not only there is an AFUE** 

### 11 **for them, but there is also they have to have** 

### 12 **the temperature reset to modulate the usage to** 

### 13 **save more energy.** 

### 14 **I guess I am a little concerned** 

### 15 **that variable-speed drives are a control** 

### 16 **technology. They are using energy themselves,** 

### 17 **but, really, they are saving energy for the** 

### 18 **other product, the motor, which is a pump** 

### 19 **motor. That is what they are doing.** 

### 20 **I guess I am a little worried** 

### 21 **about, as we go down this road, are we going** 

### 22 **to try to also, are we also looking at certain**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 specifications for the variable-speed drive**  

### 2 **that might go on the motor that is attached to** 

### 3 **the pump? Again, it is a matter of where is** 

### 4 **this going in terms of, does the variable** 

### 5 **speed drive have specific design requirements** 

### 6 **itself before it would be considered to comply** 

### 7 **with any sort of regulation?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles? Betsy?** 

### 9 **Betsy?** 

### 10 **MS. KOHL: Just real quick, so when** 

### 11 **we set efficiency standards, it is we don't** 

### 12 **set design requirements for specific pieces.** 

### 13 **We might look at more efficient VSDs in** 

### 14 **setting the standard, but how you get to the** 

### 15 **ultimate standard level is up to you. We** 

### 16 **don't set specific design requirements for a** 

### 17 **VSD.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage?** 

### 19 **MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage,** 

### 20 **Southern Company.** 

### 21 **In the context of a manufacturer's** 

### 22 **standard, I am not necessarily opposed to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 this. I am not sure how well it would work.**  

### 2 **I have some misgivings about trying to require** 

### 3 **variable-speed/drive speed package into pumps** 

### 4 **because, for one thing, if it is a pump that** 

### 5 **is designed by its operation to only operate** 

### 6 **at one speed when something else is operating,** 

### 7 **adding a variable-speed drive in that** 

### 8 **situation is going to increase energy use** 

### 9 **because of the energy use of the variable** 

### 10 **speed drive itself.** 

### 11 **So, I realize we are early in the** 

### 12 **process, but I am not sure how this could** 

### 13 **really be done in the context of --** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Right.** 

### 15 **MR. BRUNDAGE: -- this rulemaking.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: We just want to** 

### 17 **gather any useful information at the stage we** 

### 18 **are in now.** 

### 19 **Gary? And then, we are going to** 

### 20 **keep moving on.** 

### 21 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, excuse** 

### 22 **me. Going to Don's point first, oftentimes,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 engineers oversize this equipment. So,**  

### 2 **whether it is a fixed application or not, many** 

### 3 **times there are opportunities for a variable** 

### 4 **speed drive to better match the pump to the** 

### 5 **desired operating condition. And you save** 

### 6 **energy that way, even though it is a fixed** 

### 7 **speed application.** 

### 8 **And going to Steve's point, I think** 

### 9 **whatever measurement and test algorithm we** 

### 10 **come up with, it needs to include the energy** 

### 11 **use of the variable-speed drive itself, which** 

### 12 **may include a standby energy use, in order to** 

### 13 **properly capture the energy use of the** 

### 14 **integrated piece of equipment that is being** 

### 15 **represented as an extended product,** 

### 16 **category/product.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ken?** 

### 18 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano of** 

### 19 **the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 20 **Of course, we proposed the use of** 

### 21 **what we refer to as extended product. And I** 

### 22 **would like to make just a couple of comments**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 about extended product because this is a very**  

### 2 **important part of the discussion when you** 

### 3 **consider the amount of energy savings** 

### 4 **potential from this approach as compared to** 

### 5 **looking at just the pump component efficiency.** 

### 6 **The extended product approach is a** 

### 7 **methodology to calculate the Energy Efficiency** 

### 8 **Index of an extended product, incorporating** 

### 9 **load profiles. And it consists of a physical** 

### 10 **product. It doesn't just need to be a** 

### 11 **variable-speed drive, but it is a pump and a** 

### 12 **motor and some control feedback or a pump,** 

### 13 **motor, speed control, and a feedback loop.** 

### 14 **So, yes, you need a feedback mechanism to,** 

### 15 **then, adjust the pump to the demand.** 

### 16 **And we have identified two** 

### 17 **categories. One is pump with a variable-speed** 

### 18 **drive for load profiles and applications that** 

### 19 **are conducive to that, but there is also** 

### 20 **constant-speed operation, where you don't have** 

### 21 **a highly-variable load profile, and it could** 

### 22 **be as simple as an on/off control. Because,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 believe it or not, there are a lot of pumps**  

### 2 **that run out there and they just run and run** 

### 3 **and run, whether there is a demand or load or** 

### 4 **not. And simply by having a feedback loop** 

### 5 **that turns them off, it could have a** 

### 6 **substantial energy savings.** 

### 7 **And so, by defining the extended** 

### 8 **product in those two potential categories,** 

### 9 **that approach can be used on virtually any** 

### 10 **application.** 

### 11 **And then, lastly, we did an** 

### 12 **estimate, which we submitted a long time ago,** 

### 13 **that conservatively estimated the energy saved** 

### 14 **by incorporating the extended product approach** 

### 15 **in the scheme would represent 11.6-terawatt** 

### 16 **hours per year of energy savings potential.** 

### 17 **So, far and away, the largest piece.** 

### 18 **So, it is more complex than just** 

### 19 **the pump efficiency. I think we are** 

### 20 **benefitting from the fact that we are behind** 

### 21 **the EU because the EU plowed a lot of ground,** 

### 22 **and they went first with Minimum Efficiency**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 Index on the pump itself because it is simpler**  

### 2 **to get at, but they are now writing** 

### 3 **regulations around the extended product** 

### 4 **approach. So, there is a methodology to get** 

### 5 **at that.** 

### 6 **Thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest?** 

### 8 **MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant** 

### 9 **Consulting.** 

### 10 **Just sort of following up on** 

### 11 **Steve's comment about how one might** 

### 12 **incorporate standards that take into account** 

### 13 **variable-speed drives, and you mentioned the** 

### 14 **prescriptive standard for boilers, the idea** 

### 15 **here in this product would not be to have a** 

### 16 **prescriptive standard, but to develop a test** 

### 17 **method at different loading points which,** 

### 18 **then, combined with a load profile, would** 

### 19 **allow you to look at the consumption or the** 

### 20 **efficiency, sort of like an SEER value, if you** 

### 21 **will, for air conditioning, that would combine** 

### 22 **all the load profile, the test procedure at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 different loading, and together you could**  

### 2 **develop the economic payback, if you will, of** 

### 3 **different load profiles, even for a customer** 

### 4 **that has a single speed. So, it is a little** 

### 5 **bit more complicated of an analysis, but there** 

### 6 **are certainly multiple rulemakings that have** 

### 7 **used this approach.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Mike.** 

### 9 **Yes, Albert?** 

### 10 **MR. HUBER: This is Albert Huber** 

### 11 **with the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 12 **I just want to comment that the** 

### 13 **Hydraulic Institute is currently working on** 

### 14 **standards for tests to test this extended** 

### 15 **product and an EEI, which is the Energy** 

### 16 **Efficiency Index that you would judge the** 

### 17 **product by and label it by. So, we are** 

### 18 **already in the process of doing that.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a** 

### 20 **timetable?** 

### 21 **MR. HUBER: No, not at this time,** 

### 22 **but we are very close at this point.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: But you are close?**  

### 2 **MR. HUBER: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. HUBER: Certainly within the** 

### 5 **timeframe -- (laughter) -- as close as any** 

### 6 **timetable that the DOE has in regulation, more** 

### 7 **like 2015.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: There is another** 

### 9 **constant refrain in these meetings, and that** 

### 10 **is, how soon can you get it to us, right?** 

### 11 **(Laughter.)** 

### 12 **To the Department. It is always** 

### 13 **beneficial.** 

### 14 **Okay. Yes, please.** 

### 15 **MR. HUBER: Excuse me.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 17 **MR. HUBER: We can get it, we** 

### 18 **believe we will have it to you this year.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Thank you,** 

### 20 **Albert. That is great.** 

### 21 **Okay. Please say your name. Leave** 

### 22 **that thing on, okay (referring to microphone)?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 MR. BUTLER: Kitt Butler with**  

### 2 **Advanced Energy.** 

### 3 **I would just like to bring up that** 

### 4 **there is a test standard out there for VSD** 

### 5 **performance. It is AHRI 1210, and it does get** 

### 6 **at the points that were made earlier about** 

### 7 **different speeds and matrix between motor and** 

### 8 **drive.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: AHRI 1210? Okay.** 

### 10 **Thanks.** 

### 11 **Alison, let's keep going.** 

### 12 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to describe** 

### 13 **a little bit more about what we have been** 

### 14 **talking about --** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Well, wait.** 

### 16 **Go ahead. Your name?** 

### 17 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond from** 

### 18 **AHRI.** 

### 19 **I just want to add that that AHRI** 

### 20 **standard that was 1210 is an ANSI standard as** 

### 21 **well.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 Alison?**  

### 2 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, in the first** 

### 3 **regulatory regime that DOE could follow, they** 

### 4 **would regulate just pumps alone, regardless of** 

### 5 **how they are sold, which is consistent with** 

### 6 **the current EU approach for clean water pumps,** 

### 7 **although, as noted, they have been exploring** 

### 8 **some additional options.** 

### 9 **DOE could also consider looking at** 

### 10 **combined pump equipment. So, in Regulatory** 

### 11 **Regime 2, it would define pumps as inclusive** 

### 12 **of the motor and VSD if sold together.** 

### 13 **So, we would end up with two** 

### 14 **equipment class sets, which we will talk about** 

### 15 **these a little bit later, one for pumps** 

### 16 **without VSDs and one for pumps with VSDs.** 

### 17 **In the third option, we define** 

### 18 **pumps as inclusive of the motor if sold** 

### 19 **together. So, you are going to have two** 

### 20 **equipment class sets, one for pumps with** 

### 21 **motors and one for pumps without motors.** 

### 22 **For the pumps with motors, VSDs**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 would be considered a design option to**  

### 2 **increase efficiency. So, it is kind of like** 

### 3 **what happened in the EU circulator regulation** 

### 4 **where some of the efficiency levels considered** 

### 5 **basically included a VSD. So, it would be** 

### 6 **something similar to that.** 

### 7 **And just to note that in Regimes 2** 

### 8 **and 3, it is possible that the same pump could** 

### 9 **be placed into two equipment classes if it is** 

### 10 **sold both alone or with a motor or VSD.** 

### 11 **This is just a visual description** 

### 12 **of what I just discussed. So, the first row** 

### 13 **is Regulatory Regime 1, where only the pump** 

### 14 **itself is regulated, regardless of how it is** 

### 15 **sold. In the second row, the pump itself is** 

### 16 **regulated unless it comes with both a motor** 

### 17 **and a VSD. And in the third row, it is** 

### 18 **regulated based on how it is sold. So, pump** 

### 19 **alone if sold alone; pump with a motor and** 

### 20 **consider a VSD as a design option for pump** 

### 21 **sold motors, and then, again, the whole set** 

### 22 **for the third.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve**  

### 2 **Rosenstock.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock,** 

### 4 **EEI.** 

### 5 **I don't have problems with this** 

### 6 **conceptually, and I think it is a really,** 

### 7 **really good chart. My only concern is on the** 

### 8 **far right side it says, "Pumps sold with VSD".** 

### 9 **I would hate to limit any technology. What is** 

### 10 **there is some other technology that is -- I** 

### 11 **will just say maybe it is a step function** 

### 12 **rather than a continuous variable-speed drive.** 

### 13 **What if it is an on/off switch for certain** 

### 14 **motors? That saves the most energy.** 

### 15 **So, in terms of regulatory** 

### 16 **function, if you are going to add in the pump,** 

### 17 **the motor, and some sort of, I will say,** 

### 18 **energy control, it might be better to have a** 

### 19 **more inclusive type of language to say we are** 

### 20 **not just looking at variable-speed drives; we** 

### 21 **are looking at, if we can do it under certain** 

### 22 **test procedures, other technologies that might**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 control the energy usage of the motor that is**  

### 2 **a standalone product.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, you now see the** 

### 6 **Request for Comment, Item 1-20 and -21. Do** 

### 7 **you want to just --** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. The first is** 

### 9 **basically asking whether Regimes 2 or 3 could** 

### 10 **generate energy use by increasing the** 

### 11 **beneficial use of VSDs in the field or whether** 

### 12 **they might have any drawbacks. And we are** 

### 13 **also interested in the market share of pumps** 

### 14 **by category that would be used in an** 

### 15 **application that would benefit from a VSD.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney?** 

### 17 **MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka,** 

### 18 **Smith & Loveless and the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 19 **In response to your 1-20, the** 

### 20 **extended product proposal that HI has** 

### 21 **presented for a variable-load profile, VFDs or** 

### 22 **variable-speed drives in whatever category**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 they would vary the speed of the pump, yes,**  

### 2 **that would increase the beneficial use of** 

### 3 **them.** 

### 4 **As Gary had mentioned earlier about** 

### 5 **pump applications, normal pump applications --** 

### 6 **or I shouldn't say "normal" -- many pump** 

### 7 **applications can be oversized, and you have to** 

### 8 **throttle back, so your motor is running full** 

### 9 **speed and you are throttling back. The use of** 

### 10 **VFDs can benefit by moving the pump more** 

### 11 **towards it Best Efficiency Point, or BEP, on** 

### 12 **its pump curve versus moving it away from it,** 

### 13 **if you are running at a constant speed.** 

### 14 **So, in those variable-speed** 

### 15 **applications, yes, VFDs will be a beneficial** 

### 16 **use of them. In addition, using extended** 

### 17 **product in an EEI approach should move the** 

### 18 **market to a more optimum use of these** 

### 19 **products. Again, when you have a fragmented** 

### 20 **market and people put things together or are** 

### 21 **trying to design stuff, you may not get the** 

### 22 **most optimum energy-efficient unit at the end.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 Using the extended product, we**  

### 2 **believe that you are going to end up with more** 

### 3 **proper applications in the market than** 

### 4 **improper applications from that aspect. So,** 

### 5 **that is on 1-20.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 7 **Other comments on 1-20? Joanna?** 

### 8 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 9 **So, I guess, first, on Option 2, it** 

### 10 **seems like there may be an energy-savings** 

### 11 **opportunity with Option 2 if there is a** 

### 12 **significant variation in VFD efficiency, and I** 

### 13 **don't know what that variation is. But it** 

### 14 **doesn't seem to us that that would by itself** 

### 15 **increase the use of VFDs in the field. I** 

### 16 **think it would just have the effect of, if you** 

### 17 **are already going to buy a pump with a VFD,** 

### 18 **now you are going to get one that has a VFD** 

### 19 **with a high efficiency.** 

### 20 **I think to us the more interesting** 

### 21 **option is Option 3 because we see that the big** 

### 22 **opportunity here is increasing the market**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 penetration of pumps with VFDs, getting more**  

### 2 **VFDs out into the field in applications where** 

### 3 **they can save a significant amount of energy.** 

### 4 **And so, I think with Option 3 it** 

### 5 **seems like in many cases a customer who** 

### 6 **otherwise would buy a pump with a motor** 

### 7 **without a VFD is now going to get a package** 

### 8 **that includes a VFD. So, it seems like it is** 

### 9 **an option to increase the use of VFDs in the** 

### 10 **field.** 

### 11 **And I think the other point about** 

### 12 **Option 3 is that, as you mentioned, there** 

### 13 **would still be two categories of pumps. There** 

### 14 **would still be a separate category of pumps** 

### 15 **sold without a motor. And so, certain** 

### 16 **customers who have an application where they** 

### 17 **are really not going to see a benefit from a** 

### 18 **VFD, where using a VSD may not be a beneficial** 

### 19 **option for them, that customer still has the** 

### 20 **option of buying a pump and separately buying** 

### 21 **a motor, so that they still have that option.** 

### 22 **They are not required to buy this package that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 includes the VSD.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Albert? And then,** 

### 3 **to Gary.** 

### 4 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic** 

### 5 **Institute.** 

### 6 **Our proposal today is basically No.** 

### 7 **3 or Regime No. 3. And basically, the pump** 

### 8 **only would be regulated by an MEI, or a** 

### 9 **Minimum Efficiency Index, and our extended** 

### 10 **product would have two categories, one being** 

### 11 **pump and motor and the other one being pump,** 

### 12 **motor, VFD, and feedback. So, this is exactly** 

### 13 **what we are proposing.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 15 **Joanna, follow on, yes.** 

### 16 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 17 **Maybe we just need to have some** 

### 18 **further discussions, but I think the** 

### 19 **difference, the way I see it, between what DOE** 

### 20 **has laid out in terms of Option 3 and what you** 

### 21 **have just mentioned, Al, is that by having** 

### 22 **three categories, customers still have the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 option of buying pump and motor without a VFD,**  

### 2 **where I think the real opportunity is getting** 

### 3 **more packages that include the VFD out into** 

### 4 **the field. And so, I don't have a good** 

### 5 **understanding of how having the three** 

### 6 **categories would actually increase the market** 

### 7 **penetration of products with VFDs.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken, follow on.** 

### 9 **MR. NAPOLITANO: No, I would just** 

### 10 **say that those are all good questions, and we** 

### 11 **are aligned with the notion of figuring out** 

### 12 **how to increase the adoption of VFDs.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary?** 

### 14 **MR. FERNSTROM: We strongly agree** 

### 15 **with Joanna.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve** 

### 17 **Rosenstock?** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 19 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 20 **I guess -- and it is good to hear** 

### 21 **-- but I guess in terms of DOE, under Option** 

### 22 **3, that would mean that there would be three**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 separate test procedures for this product.**  

### 2 **With other products there I am familiar with,** 

### 3 **I don't know if there are multiple efficiency** 

### 4 **test procedures. There is usually just one** 

### 5 **test procedure with, I will say, a static** 

### 6 **loading and static ambient conditions.** 

### 7 **So, again, I don't mind. I would** 

### 8 **just say it would be kind of almost, it might** 

### 9 **be, again, unless there are other products** 

### 10 **that are doing it, it might be setting a** 

### 11 **precedent where, again, different** 

### 12 **manufacturers might have to do three different** 

### 13 **test procedures for all their products versus** 

### 14 **other manufacturers would only have to do one** 

### 15 **test procedure.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 17 **MR. STARR: In terms of Option 3,** 

### 18 **the only thing you might consider is perhaps** 

### 19 **putting some bookends in terms of the range of** 

### 20 **VFDs, where they are required. So, maybe 1 to** 

### 21 **25 horsepower.** 

### 22 **The concern I might see is that a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 distributor could go out and start buying a**  

### 2 **VFD and a bare motor separately and putting** 

### 3 **these things together. Or, in other words, if** 

### 4 **you had an application where you had a** 

### 5 **constant flow, but you had to be buy a VFD, it** 

### 6 **is going to make the product more expensive.** 

### 7 **But if I can just buy the motor and sell it to** 

### 8 **you directly without having to put the VFD, my** 

### 9 **price is now lower than your price as a** 

### 10 **manufacturer. So, the prices of VFDs get to** 

### 11 **be pretty substantial when they get into** 

### 12 **certain ranges, and it can be as much as the** 

### 13 **product, the pump itself. So, you might think** 

### 14 **about some of the fallout of that.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 16 **I am eager for us to move on. So,** 

### 17 **Alison?** 

### 18 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, until** 

### 19 **now, basically, we have been talking about** 

### 20 **pumps with electric motors. DOE acknowledges** 

### 21 **that about 10 percent of pumps are driven by** 

### 22 **something other than a motor, such as an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 engine or a steam turbine. DOE is potentially**  

### 2 **considering regulating those as pumps sold** 

### 3 **alone, even if they are driven with an engine,** 

### 4 **mostly for simplicity. And we are interested** 

### 5 **in comment on the market-share in applications** 

### 6 **of the pumps driven by other than electric** 

### 7 **motors.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steven Rosenstock?** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock,** 

### 10 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 11 **I want to thank you for this slide.** 

### 12 **EEI feels very strongly that DOE should take a** 

### 13 **fuel- and market-neutral approach to any new** 

### 14 **standard. So, I applaud that DOE is going to** 

### 15 **regulate these products because that is the** 

### 16 **best way to achieve maximum energy savings,** 

### 17 **regardless of the driver.** 

### 18 **In terms of the efficiency** 

### 19 **regulation, all I would say is please try to** 

### 20 **be consistent as possible. If you are going** 

### 21 **to have three test procedures, like the** 

### 22 **previous slides, for products that are using**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 electric drivers or controls, then there**  

### 2 **should be a similar number of test procedures** 

### 3 **for the non-electric drivers, again, to** 

### 4 **maximize energy efficiency for these products.** 

### 5 **I think that is the best; it is the most** 

### 6 **market-neutral and fuel-neutral way to** 

### 7 **approach regulating these products.** 

### 8 **Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney?** 

### 10 **MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka,** 

### 11 **Smith & Loveless, and the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 12 **On that comment on 1-22, the** 

### 13 **Hydraulic Institute does not have that data** 

### 14 **available, nor is it something that is in the** 

### 15 **near future that data available.** 

### 16 **One comment on the first statement** 

### 17 **there. Approximately 10 percent of the pumps** 

### 18 **consider being driven by natural gas or diesel** 

### 19 **engines or steam turbines, it is our opinion** 

### 20 **that that figure is very high, comparatively** 

### 21 **speaking, to our membership and what we** 

### 22 **believe is non-electric motors. We think that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 number is extremely high.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Would you care to** 

### 3 **venture what you think it is?** 

### 4 **MR. MRKVICKA: Estimate maybe 2 to** 

### 5 **3 percent.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 7 **Louis?** 

### 8 **MR. STARR: I have a little bit of** 

### 9 **a question. I wonder if the individual pump** 

### 10 **manufacturers know individually what the** 

### 11 **numbers of pumps they sold and ones without** 

### 12 **motors, and all these variations and comments.** 

### 13 **I am wondering, as a collective, they don't** 

### 14 **know because that is proprietary information,** 

### 15 **and I am not sure -- individual pumps, maybe** 

### 16 **that would be a clarification. I am wondering** 

### 17 **if the pump manufacturers individually know** 

### 18 **how much pumps you sold with motors, how many** 

### 19 **you sell without VFDs, but as a group you** 

### 20 **don't know. But maybe revealing that** 

### 21 **information is problematic. And if that is** 

### 22 **the case, it seems like perhaps there could be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 entering in with non-disclosure agreement**  

### 2 **would help that.** 

### 3 **But am I wrong on that point or** 

### 4 **not?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: I saw both of you.** 

### 6 **Who of you would like to go first? Mark?** 

### 7 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel on** 

### 8 **behalf of the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 9 **Your statement is correct. In** 

### 10 **general, as individual companies, we know that** 

### 11 **data. HI has never collected that data. So,** 

### 12 **that is why HI doesn't collectively have it.** 

### 13 **So, it does exist.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. NAPOLITANO: And I would just** 

### 16 **add to that. There probably are some** 

### 17 **proprietary confidential aspects of that** 

### 18 **within the membership of HI, which we could** 

### 19 **potentially get around. And there is also,** 

### 20 **you know, the way the channel works. So,** 

### 21 **although the manufacturer may sell a pump** 

### 22 **without a motor or without a motor and a VFD,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 what we would consider, we would often refer**  

### 2 **to as a bare pump, that doesn't mean that one** 

### 3 **or more of those devices aren't put together** 

### 4 **along the supply chain, such that the customer** 

### 5 **gets it complete.** 

### 6 **And quite frankly, when the** 

### 7 **customer gets it from one of our authorized** 

### 8 **distributors, we give the distributor a pump.** 

### 9 **He puts a motor or something more on it and** 

### 10 **sells it to the customer. The customer pretty** 

### 11 **much views that as they got it from the** 

### 12 **manufacturer that way because the distributor** 

### 13 **is an extension of our supply chain. Where** 

### 14 **that value-added occurs in the supply chain,** 

### 15 **there is all kinds of market factors as to** 

### 16 **what drives that.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 18 **MR. STARR: Yes, I guess part of** 

### 19 **the reason I brought that up is I did design** 

### 20 **for seven years. I never bought a pump** 

### 21 **without a motor. I always thought they came** 

### 22 **together.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 (Laughter.)**  

### 2 **So, that is probably because I was** 

### 3 **buying it from the distributor.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison?** 

### 5 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So,** 

### 6 **regardless of the Regulatory Regime chosen,** 

### 7 **DOE has reviewed some existing efficiency** 

### 8 **metrics for pumps.** 

### 9 **The first one is pump efficiency,** 

### 10 **the ratio of hydraulic power to shaft input** 

### 11 **power. This is used in the EU clean water** 

### 12 **pump regulation and HI 20.3 and other country** 

### 13 **regulations, such as Mexico, South Korea, and** 

### 14 **China. The pump efficiency does not take into** 

### 15 **account the motor.** 

### 16 **On the other hand, the overall** 

### 17 **wire-to-water efficiency takes into account** 

### 18 **electric input power at either a motor or** 

### 19 **control, depending on how it is defined. And** 

### 20 **this is used in Mexico for submersible pumps,** 

### 21 **where they basically have a minimum pump** 

### 22 **efficiency multiplied by a minimum motor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 efficiency.**  

### 2 **The EEI is the Energy Efficiency** 

### 3 **Index used for circulators in the EU, based on** 

### 4 **some reference power from the market when it** 

### 5 **was developed.** 

### 6 **And bowl efficiency is similar to** 

### 7 **pump efficiency, but for a single bowl in** 

### 8 **vertically-suspended pumps, which is used in** 

### 9 **HI 14.6.** 

### 10 **So, as the stakeholders have** 

### 11 **recommended the EU approach, DOE has reviewed** 

### 12 **it a little more. Again, pump efficiency is** 

### 13 **the metric, and they set minimum pump** 

### 14 **efficiency by taking into account flow,** 

### 15 **specific speed, pump type, and speed. And** 

### 16 **just to note, the specific speed also** 

### 17 **incorporates head.** 

### 18 **And the result is this 3D surface** 

### 19 **that you can see here where efficiency is a** 

### 20 **function of flow and specific speed, and they** 

### 21 **raise the surface up and down, depending on** 

### 22 **equipment class and design speed, in order to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 set the standard for a specific equipment**  

### 2 **class.** 

### 3 **They also have a house-of** 

### 4 **efficiency approach where they set pump** 

### 5 **efficiency at both the Best Efficiency Point,** 

### 6 **75 percent BEP flow and 110 BEP flow. And the** 

### 7 **requirement is that each of the part-load and** 

### 8 **overload points are based on the requirement** 

### 9 **BEP, and a pump has to pass all three points** 

### 10 **to meet the standard.** 

### 11 **The standard is also based on full** 

### 12 **impeller only, and they test on a certain** 

### 13 **number of stages for their multi-stage pumps** 

### 14 **in the regulation.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause there.** 

### 16 **Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 18 **Steve Rosenstock, EEI.** 

### 19 **At 110 percent, again, I am just** 

### 20 **going to use the 110 percent flow is an** 

### 21 **overload situation. I guess is that just for** 

### 22 **temporary like a startup condition or --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert wishes to**  

### 2 **comment.** 

### 3 **MR. HUBER: A hundred and ten** 

### 4 **percent is 110 percent of BEP, 10 percent more** 

### 5 **than the Best Efficiency Point. It is just** 

### 6 **running at the higher flow. You are not** 

### 7 **overloading the pump nor the motor nor** 

### 8 **anything else.** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you for** 

### 10 **that. I appreciate that.** 

### 11 **MR. HUBER: To further clarify** 

### 12 **that, 75 to 110 is pretty much our preferred** 

### 13 **operating range.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison?** 

### 15 **MS. WILLIAMS: Overload is just a** 

### 16 **nomenclature used by the EU, for example.** 

### 17 **So, in considering these metrics,** 

### 18 **DOE is considering following the EU approach** 

### 19 **using pump efficiency at 3 points for all** 

### 20 **pumps sold alone or all pumps sold alone not** 

### 21 **considering motor and controls.** 

### 22 **DOE may consider some other**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 metrics, such as overall efficiency for**  

### 2 **submersible pumps or bowl efficiency for** 

### 3 **vertically-suspended pumps.** 

### 4 **In the other options where DOE** 

### 5 **defines pumps inclusive of motor and controls,** 

### 6 **pump efficiency is not a sufficient metric.** 

### 7 **So, in Regime 2 for pumps sold with both** 

### 8 **motors and VSDs, DOE is considering overall** 

### 9 **efficiency as the metric in order to account** 

### 10 **for the use of more efficient VSDs. So, this** 

### 11 **would be, again, possibly overall efficiency** 

### 12 **at 3 points.** 

### 13 **And in Regime 3 for pumps sold with** 

### 14 **motors, DOE would need a different metric that** 

### 15 **would enable it to compare the energy** 

### 16 **efficiency of pumps with VSDs to those with** 

### 17 **motors but without VSDs. So, we believe it** 

### 18 **would be some sort of electric input power** 

### 19 **based metric and have a few options laid out** 

### 20 **in the framework document, but it would need** 

### 21 **to be more extensive than the overall** 

### 22 **efficiency metric.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 Again, if DOE pursues Regime 2 or**  

### 2 **3, there would be multiple equipment class** 

### 3 **sets in these cases. So, DOE must consider** 

### 4 **how to deal with the metrics.** 

### 5 **The first option is to just set the** 

### 6 **most appropriate metric for each equipment** 

### 7 **class set and not worry about them being** 

### 8 **consistent.** 

### 9 **The second is where you have the** 

### 10 **same metric for all equipment classes, and you** 

### 11 **might include some standardized numbers for** 

### 12 **motor or VSD efficiency for some of them.** 

### 13 **And the third one, you would have** 

### 14 **the same metric, probably pump efficiency, for** 

### 15 **all classes and potentially have another** 

### 16 **metric for the pumps including the motor** 

### 17 **and/or VSD.** 

### 18 **This table is basically summarizing** 

### 19 **those options. In the first metric option of** 

### 20 **separate, those are basically what DOE is** 

### 21 **considering as most appropriate for each of** 

### 22 **those, pump efficiency, overall efficiency,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 and electric input power-based, and others**  

### 2 **show the different combinations of how the** 

### 3 **metrics could potentially work with the** 

### 4 **different regimes.** 

### 5 **DOE notes that these options may** 

### 6 **impact manufacturer burden. As we mentioned,** 

### 7 **a pump both sold alone and with other** 

### 8 **equipment could be placed into two equipment** 

### 9 **classes, which may each have their own** 

### 10 **standard. DOE believes that potentially the** 

### 11 **same testing could be used, and you may just** 

### 12 **have to take additional measurements, such as** 

### 13 **both shaft input power and electric input** 

### 14 **power to the motor or VSD, or simply taking** 

### 15 **pump efficiency and multiplying it by other** 

### 16 **standardized numbers.** 

### 17 **So, these are the comments. This** 

### 18 **first comment page is about pumps alone. So,** 

### 19 **following the EU approach, whether 75 and 110** 

### 20 **percent are the best points, and whether it** 

### 21 **should consider other metrics for submersible** 

### 22 **or vertically-suspended pumps.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just do that**  

### 2 **one first.** 

### 3 **Ken?** 

### 4 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano,** 

### 5 **the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 6 **So, with respect to the operating** 

### 7 **range of 75 percent to 110 percent, we support** 

### 8 **that. That is our position, not only because** 

### 9 **it is harmonized with the EU, but because it** 

### 10 **is the appropriate range to optimize** 

### 11 **efficiency.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 13 **Yes, Greg?** 

### 14 **MR. CASE: To follow up on that, it** 

### 15 **also is in accordance with our HI preferred** 

### 16 **operating region, ANSI HI 9.6.3. So, there is** 

### 17 **a standard that backs up that flow range.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 19 **Okay. Do you want to set up the** 

### 20 **next item?** 

### 21 **Oh, Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 EEI.**  

### 2 **And again, I appreciate the tables** 

### 3 **that you put out. I guess, again, I kind of** 

### 4 **think of this from the end-user. If there are** 

### 5 **-- how do I say it? -- if there are different** 

### 6 **metrics, but they sound alike, if they are all** 

### 7 **saying they’re pump efficiency, but they** 

### 8 **really tested differently, I am a little** 

### 9 **worried about possible customer confusion,** 

### 10 **just because if one thing is 81 percent and** 

### 11 **the other one is 83 percent and another one is** 

### 12 **85 percent, but if there are different tests,** 

### 13 **and they might need different things in terms** 

### 14 **of energy consumption, again, as we go down, I** 

### 15 **think there should try to be a way to make** 

### 16 **sure that there is minimum confusion for the** 

### 17 **end-user customer, that if one is 83 and** 

### 18 **another one is 81, the customer would say,** 

### 19 **okay, the 83 is going to be more efficient.** 

### 20 **And I just want to make sure it is going to be** 

### 21 **more efficient for the customer.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alison?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. I mean, I**  

### 2 **have kind of reviewed all these. So, that is** 

### 3 **moving on kind of to the other regimes.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on a second.** 

### 5 **Let's make sure.** 

### 6 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Look at the page,** 

### 8 **please. Item 1-29, 1-30, and 1-31. Let's** 

### 9 **make certain we have gotten the comments that** 

### 10 **we wish to get here.** 

### 11 **Greg?** 

### 12 **MR. CASE: On 1-29, again, echoing** 

### 13 **the comments from 1-28, we would like to** 

### 14 **remain harmonized as much as possible with EU.** 

### 15 **So, if we can stay in that range, we would** 

### 16 **like to stay there.** 

### 17 **And it is, again, supported by the** 

### 18 **ANSI/HI allowable operating region document.** 

### 19 **So, instead of expanding that to a larger** 

### 20 **range, we would like to stay within that** 

### 21 **range. That is the preferred operating** 

### 22 **region. That is where pumps operate, where we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 tell our customers that is where they should**  

### 2 **operate their pumps.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 4 **Albert?** 

### 5 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic** 

### 6 **Institute.** 

### 7 **I would like to point out that, if** 

### 8 **you are asking here if you can broaden the** 

### 9 **efficiency curves, if you broaden the curve,** 

### 10 **then your peak efficience or the BEP will drop** 

### 11 **by design. So, you will be defeating the** 

### 12 **purpose. The whole purpose of energy** 

### 13 **efficiency in pumps is to operate the pump at** 

### 14 **its BEP. And to broaden it out, so you lower** 

### 15 **it, you are defeating the purpose.** 

### 16 **MS. WILLIAMS: Just to clarify, we** 

### 17 **are not necessarily suggesting broadening the** 

### 18 **curves. You could suggest other points** 

### 19 **between 75 and 110.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Greg.** 

### 21 **Do you wish to follow on, Albert?** 

### 22 **No?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 Greg?**  

### 2 **MR. CASE: Also, the possibility of** 

### 3 **using a weighted average, we could create a** 

### 4 **pump curve that had a weighted average that** 

### 5 **had a higher peak value, but was not as broad.** 

### 6 **So, it wouldn't be as applicable over a larger** 

### 7 **flow range.** 

### 8 **So, the reason the house of** 

### 9 **efficiency was created was to create wider** 

### 10 **high-efficiency zones on pumps, so they could** 

### 11 **be applied over a wider range of flows and** 

### 12 **still maintain a high efficiency.** 

### 13 **We can design pumps that have a** 

### 14 **very high peak efficiency and a very narrow** 

### 15 **band of efficiency. And I don't think that is** 

### 16 **where you want us to go.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Got it.** 

### 18 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, the next** 

### 19 **comment, 1-32 is about Regime 2, whether** 

### 20 **overall efficiency at 3 points would be an** 

### 21 **appropriate metric for that regime.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 MR. CASE: Greg Case with Hydraulic**  

### 2 **Institute.** 

### 3 **The Hydraulic Institute believes** 

### 4 **that this would increase the testing burden on** 

### 5 **manufacturers. These costs would also be** 

### 6 **passed on in the market. So, these costs** 

### 7 **would go up to the consumer, as we had to do** 

### 8 **all these different tests, possibly different** 

### 9 **vendors for multiple motor manufacturers, et** 

### 10 **cetera.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna?** 

### 12 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 13 **I guess I am a little confused** 

### 14 **about Item 1-32. For pumps sold with a motor** 

### 15 **and VSD, I would imagine that you would want** 

### 16 **to have test points where the pump is** 

### 17 **operating at a lower speed.** 

### 18 **MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, we are** 

### 19 **requesting comment on whether we should add** 

### 20 **additional test points below 75 percent for** 

### 21 **that reason, to capture lower speeds that the** 

### 22 **pump or the VSD might be running at.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 So, to clarify, the EU approach is**  

### 2 **testing at the same speed for all three** 

### 3 **points, but DOES could consider testing at** 

### 4 **different speeds to meet either of those same** 

### 5 **points or different points.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Neal?** 

### 7 **MR. ELLIOTT: This is Neal Elliott,** 

### 8 **ACEEE.** 

### 9 **Clarification here: once you** 

### 10 **change the speed at which the pump is** 

### 11 **operating, you change the BEP, correct? You** 

### 12 **are going to move it down? So, we need to be** 

### 13 **careful here in our terminology. When we are** 

### 14 **saying this, you know, when you change the** 

### 15 **speed of the pump, you change the pump curve.** 

### 16 **It is not the same flow or pressure or these** 

### 17 **factors. So, it is a little more complex. I** 

### 18 **think we need to be clear about that in how we** 

### 19 **communicate it.** 

### 20 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, to be precise,** 

### 21 **it should be intended to be 75 percent of the** 

### 22 **BEP flow at full speed. So, you would, then,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 potentially -- again, these are just**  

### 2 **considerations -- you would reduce speed to** 

### 3 **the equivalent.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Did that make it** 

### 5 **more clear? Go ahead.** 

### 6 **MR. ELLIOTT: I guess the point we** 

### 7 **need to be cognizant of is, when we are** 

### 8 **talking about the multiple testing points,** 

### 9 **that may be multiple testing points at** 

### 10 **multiple speeds, if we are talking about a VFD** 

### 11 **because we will have multiple BEPs at** 

### 12 **different speeds. And I don't know that that** 

### 13 **matters hydraulically.** 

### 14 **MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, I mean,** 

### 15 **that can be worked out, right? I mean, I** 

### 16 **think what was considered in the framework** 

### 17 **document -- and again, we are open to other** 

### 18 **suggestions -- is you might test the 100** 

### 19 **percent point at full speed, 75 percent at 75** 

### 20 **percent, or, you know, at a reduced speed** 

### 21 **equivalent to 75 percent flow at full speed.** 

### 22 **Sorry. It is a little confusing. But you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 wouldn't necessarily have to have multiple**  

### 2 **points on the same reduced-speed curve.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure** 

### 4 **we drag this to the ground before we are** 

### 5 **finished.** 

### 6 **(Laughter.)** 

### 7 **Go ahead.** 

### 8 **MR. FERMAN: Yes, Randal Ferman,** 

### 9 **Ekwestrel Corp Consulting.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Get to** 

### 11 **the microphone. We need this on the record.** 

### 12 **And then, I am going to Rodney.** 

### 13 **MR. FERMAN: Okay. I just wanted** 

### 14 **to, hopefully, clarify this point about** 

### 15 **operating at multiple speeds.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 17 **MR. FERMAN: In a pure friction** 

### 18 **system curve, which is fairly common in the** 

### 19 **smaller pumping systems, you drop it to a** 

### 20 **lower speed and the pump is still at its best** 

### 21 **efficiency point, if it was sized at its best** 

### 22 **efficiency point at full speed. So, there may**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 be no issue as far as dropping speed relative**  

### 2 **to the pump performance curve itself.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, there is a** 

### 4 **microphone right there. The Mike Rivest** 

### 5 **follow-on.** 

### 6 **I haven't forgotten you, Rodney.** 

### 7 **MR. RIVEST: Yes, Mike Rivest,** 

### 8 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 9 **So, this boils down to how we** 

### 10 **define efficiency. What we are trying to** 

### 11 **achieve is energy savings. So, if we operate** 

### 12 **the pump at a lower speed and lower efficiency** 

### 13 **but we consume less energy, then that is our** 

### 14 **goal. So, I don't think -- I am seeing heads** 

### 15 **saying yes.** 

### 16 **So, the question we are trying to** 

### 17 **answer is, what are the points, the test** 

### 18 **points, we should be looking at that would** 

### 19 **best reflect how systems operate, so that we** 

### 20 **capture the energy use?** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to go to** 

### 22 **Rodney, unless you want to let him follow on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 Gary? Go ahead.**  

### 2 **MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary.** 

### 3 **I am definitely with Mike on this.** 

### 4 **This is complicated, and we are talking about** 

### 5 **two different things.** 

### 6 **So, with the pump running at a** 

### 7 **fixed speed, perhaps its maximum speed, to get** 

### 8 **this house of efficiency, we would like to see** 

### 9 **how it performs when it is a little bit** 

### 10 **underloaded and a little bit overloaded, the** 

### 11 **presumption being that in a lot of cases in** 

### 12 **real application it is going to be a little** 

### 13 **bit underloaded.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-hum.** 

### 15 **MR. FERNSTROM: However, when you** 

### 16 **connect the VFD, the overall efficiency is how** 

### 17 **much clean water you move per unit of energy** 

### 18 **that is consumed. And pumps that operate at a** 

### 19 **lower flow and a lower total dynamic head are** 

### 20 **fundamentally presenting a greater system** 

### 21 **efficiency than ones that are operating at** 

### 22 **high flow and high head. So, somehow in our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 metric we would like to capture this.**  

### 2 **So, it is complicated. I think it** 

### 3 **merits a lot more discussion and thought. But** 

### 4 **we want to make sure we get the right metric.** 

### 5 **In my mind, it aligns with what Mike is** 

### 6 **thinking.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney?** 

### 8 **MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka,** 

### 9 **Smith & Loveless and the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 10 **With respect to the points that you** 

### 11 **have there, BEP 75 percent and 110 percent,** 

### 12 **that associates to the pump or the bare pump** 

### 13 **efficiency as itself. So, the bare pump will** 

### 14 **be evaluated against those points through what** 

### 15 **was mentioned earlier, the MEI, or Minimum** 

### 16 **Efficiency Index. So, that is the bare pump.** 

### 17 **When you put it into an extended** 

### 18 **product, you now have taken that extended** 

### 19 **product and you are evaluating against its** 

### 20 **system or load curve. From that standpoint,** 

### 21 **that unit has to operate to a system or load** 

### 22 **curve for whatever use it has been put into.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 The points, then, that the EEI**  

### 2 **evaluated, is evaluated against, is a load** 

### 3 **curve set of points, not these BEP points.** 

### 4 **So, what is up there as 75 percent and 110** 

### 5 **percent are just on the pump head or the MEI** 

### 6 **side. EEI will be evaluated versus a load** 

### 7 **curve, and that will be different points over** 

### 8 **the load, whether that is flow or pump head.** 

### 9 **That varies through for whatever system you** 

### 10 **are going to apply this into.** 

### 11 **When you do that, and to mention** 

### 12 **the same comments that were mentioned earlier,** 

### 13 **the extended product is to save energy. And** 

### 14 **the amount of energy saved of a controlled** 

### 15 **product system versus an uncontrolled product** 

### 16 **system is what we are trying to achieve with** 

### 17 **the extended product. And that is where we** 

### 18 **get that 10-to-1 ratio of greater energy** 

### 19 **savings going ahead.** 

### 20 **So, the points that here relate** 

### 21 **just to the bare pump evaluation or the MEI** 

### 22 **index. Our intention is to have various load**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 profiles that the extended product will be**  

### 2 **evaluated against to tell you what the energy** 

### 3 **usage is, and the EEI will end up being a** 

### 4 **ratio between controlled and uncontrolled** 

### 5 **energy usage on that system.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to clarify,** 

### 8 **in the framework document we are discussing** 

### 9 **some options. You know, we are starting with** 

### 10 **the 75 and 110, and there is a table and a** 

### 11 **figure about how the different metrics for** 

### 12 **Regime 2, or particularly Regime 3, could** 

### 13 **create a metric based on different load** 

### 14 **points. So, DOE is certainly interested in** 

### 15 **any feedback on what those load points would** 

### 16 **be.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Are you on this** 

### 18 **point? Okay, Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 19 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 20 **EEI.** 

### 21 **I think at some point -- you know,** 

### 22 **this is obviously a very big test procedure**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 question. I think you have the wonderful**  

### 2 **charts. If you show a table or chart that** 

### 3 **shows the test procedure and how it might** 

### 4 **operate for each of the different types of** 

### 5 **systems, pump alone, pump with motors, pump** 

### 6 **with VSD, and just show, I will say, the test** 

### 7 **conditions, I think that will help everybody** 

### 8 **in terms of, you know, will you be able to** 

### 9 **show the savings with the VFD, yes or no; will** 

### 10 **you be able to show the savings with a more** 

### 11 **efficient motor, yes or no? Once that is out,** 

### 12 **I think that will help answer a lot of** 

### 13 **questions.** 

### 14 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza** 

### 15 **from the Department of Energy.** 

### 16 **The test procedure process is** 

### 17 **parallel, but it will have its own formats for** 

### 18 **meetings, for comments, et cetera. We welcome** 

### 19 **as much advance comments as to the nature of** 

### 20 **what we should be including, how complicated** 

### 21 **it should be or not be, and, also,** 

### 22 **streamlining any tests that are out there,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 integrating them into the DOE test procedure**  

### 2 **in such a way that we don't create any** 

### 3 **additional burdens, where possible.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I think we** 

### 5 **have kind of clarified the intent of these** 

### 6 **questions here. Do we have any other specific** 

### 7 **comment before we move on?** 

### 8 **(No response.)** 

### 9 **We are moving on.** 

### 10 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, just the** 

### 11 **final comment request on this item is any** 

### 12 **issues that result from having different** 

### 13 **metrics for pumps sold alone and pumps sold** 

### 14 **with motors and VSDs. I think that was** 

### 15 **discussed a little bit already.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Any** 

### 17 **amplification? Go ahead, Rodney.** 

### 18 **MR. MRKVICKA: Just a statement.** 

### 19 **Oh, I'm sorry. Rod Mrkvicka from Smith &** 

### 20 **Loveless and the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 21 **The Institute doesn't anticipate** 

### 22 **any issues between pumps sold alone and pumps**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 sold with motors and VFDs or the extended**  

### 2 **product, as we defined it, because we are** 

### 3 **stating that the pump, it has to meet an MEI,** 

### 4 **Minimum Efficiency Index, either way, whether** 

### 5 **it is sold alone or in an extended product.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Aha. Okay. Okay.** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, just to** 

### 8 **move forward with the potential implementation** 

### 9 **methods, DOE is considering whether to follow** 

### 10 **the EU approach where any standard would be a** 

### 11 **function of flow and specific speed. DOE could** 

### 12 **also explore other parameters, such as head.** 

### 13 **DOE has done some initial analysis** 

### 14 **in comparing the U.S. market to the EU market** 

### 15 **to look at the EU surfaces. As I mentioned** 

### 16 **before, this is based on data that we pulled** 

### 17 **from the PUMP-FLO software to find all these** 

### 18 **different pump models we could look at.** 

### 19 **So, our first comparison is if we** 

### 20 **create our own surface using the same form as** 

### 21 **the EU and compare it to the EU. So, we have** 

### 22 **both the 3D version on the left, which may or**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 may not rotate. Okay, never mind.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **And on the right, it is a 2D** 

### 4 **version of that where we are looking at a few** 

### 5 **different specific speeds. So, the left is** 

### 6 **specific speed versus flow. And just because** 

### 7 **that is a little bit hard to see, the right is** 

### 8 **a comparison at a few different specific** 

### 9 **speeds between surfaces that we developed with** 

### 10 **U.S. data and the EU surface.** 

### 11 **And again, these surfaces are just** 

### 12 **kind of show a methodology. Any information** 

### 13 **we got about pump models would change these** 

### 14 **surfaces.** 

### 15 **(Computer problem.)** 

### 16 **We may need a break.** 

### 17 **(Laughter.)** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think it is** 

### 19 **stalled at this point?** 

### 20 **MS. WILLIAMS: I am going to close** 

### 21 **it out and reopen it.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Just if you are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 curious, shortly we are going to be pausing**  

### 2 **for lunch because we are due for lunch.** 

### 3 **(Laughter.)** 

### 4 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, because** 

### 5 **the U.S. market and the EU market do not** 

### 6 **appear to be completely identical, we have** 

### 7 **been exploring other methods. So, we could** 

### 8 **either use the same surfaces as EU and just** 

### 9 **change the C-values to move the surface up and** 

### 10 **down or we can actually create our own** 

### 11 **surfaces for the U.S. market that are specific** 

### 12 **to individual product classes and actually** 

### 13 **specific to the efficiency level.** 

### 14 **So, again, you can see the 3D** 

### 15 **surface. I am not going to try to play this** 

### 16 **movie, I guess. They are really cool, though.** 

### 17 **(Laughter.)** 

### 18 **Basically, the 2D slice is showing** 

### 19 **you that the surface can flatten from bottom** 

### 20 **to top of market because high flow pumps** 

### 21 **generally max out their efficiency sooner** 

### 22 **because they can reach higher efficiencies.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 So, DOE has the ability to kind of follow the**  

### 2 **EU approach, but make it a little more** 

### 3 **specific to both the U.S. market and more** 

### 4 **accurate, specific efficiency levels.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, please.** 

### 6 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 7 **EEI.** 

### 8 **So, at some point, there would be,** 

### 9 **I will say, three graphs, one at BEP, one at** 

### 10 **75 BEP, and then, one at 110 BEP possibly?** 

### 11 **MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so the EU** 

### 12 **didn't actually do that. They only have the** 

### 13 **graph at BEP. Someone can correct me if I am** 

### 14 **wrong. And then, they just have a multiplying** 

### 15 **factor. So, .947 and .985.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, DOE requests** 

### 18 **comment on this implementation methodology,** 

### 19 **including whether flow and specific speed are** 

### 20 **the appropriate parameters, whether they** 

### 21 **should maintain the same surfaces, or adjust** 

### 22 **them, or make them most appropriate to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 different efficiency levels.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, is this you?** 

### 3 **No?** 

### 4 **Greg? Thank you.** 

### 5 **MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic** 

### 6 **Institute.** 

### 7 **We would support staying with the** 

### 8 **EU equation except for that C-factor at the** 

### 9 **end. Again, from the result of harmonization,** 

### 10 **we would like to do that.** 

### 11 **We also have done our own survey of** 

### 12 **our members, and we have 2,000 data points** 

### 13 **over all classes of pumps. With that, we** 

### 14 **found that we got a reasonably-good dropout** 

### 15 **rate.** 

### 16 **Now one of the things that is much** 

### 17 **different from what you did than what the EU** 

### 18 **did was you don't have any dropout rates here.** 

### 19 **You have got a centerline that kind of goes** 

### 20 **through the middle of the data. You have got** 

### 21 **a top of market, and you have got a bottom of** 

### 22 **market. There are no MEI values in here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 So, I found it very difficult to**  

### 2 **try to equate what you got with what the EU** 

### 3 **has proposed. And so, that makes it kind of** 

### 4 **hard to know if your surfaces are better or** 

### 5 **worse than their surfaces.** 

### 6 **I would have to agree that we could** 

### 7 **get equations that fit this data better, but** 

### 8 **in an attempt to harmonize with Europe and** 

### 9 **also reduce the burden to manufacturers of** 

### 10 **having to meet multiple different equations** 

### 11 **that they are going to have for each equipment** 

### 12 **class, the Hydraulic Institute would prefer** 

### 13 **that we just use that C-value to change** 

### 14 **things.** 

### 15 **And we also found that our C-value** 

### 16 **was different than the European C-value, but** 

### 17 **it is still a very simple change to move that** 

### 18 **vertically on those C-values. I don't know if** 

### 19 **you have data on how far off theirs was. I** 

### 20 **mean, you have to assume in your analysis that** 

### 21 **your median and your mean were equal for your** 

### 22 **analysis to work, and I don't know that we can**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 assume that.**  

### 2 **MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, so just** 

### 3 **conceptually our average surface I showed** 

### 4 **would be equivalent to the EU MEI 50.** 

### 5 **MR. CASE: But, again, you have to** 

### 6 **assume that your median and your mean are the** 

### 7 **equal, and I can't take that leap of faith.** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: Also, just a point** 

### 9 **of clarification, I mean, if you are changing** 

### 10 **the C-values, you are still not exactly** 

### 11 **harmonized with the EU, right?** 

### 12 **MR. CASE: That is correct. There** 

### 13 **would have to be two --** 

### 14 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, regardless of** 

### 15 **how you change it, you are not harmonized.** 

### 16 **MR. CASE: Yes, but you don't have** 

### 17 **to change the seven variables instead of just** 

### 18 **the one. They have different C-values for** 

### 19 **different motor --** 

### 20 **MS. WILLIAMS: Right.** 

### 21 **MR. CASE: -- or different** 

### 22 **equipment class and different speeds. And we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 would just propose that, for our speeds and**  

### 2 **our equipment classes, we would have a** 

### 3 **C-adjusted value. The C-factor would be** 

### 4 **adjusted. That would be our preference as** 

### 5 **manufacturers.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, did I hear you** 

### 7 **correctly? Did you say your survey has 2,000** 

### 8 **data points?** 

### 9 **MR. CASE: We have 2,024 data** 

### 10 **points.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Can you provide** 

### 12 **those to the Department of Energy?** 

### 13 **MR. CASE: We will provide those to** 

### 14 **the Department of Energy and, also, those are** 

### 15 **within the scope that we proposed. That** 

### 16 **doesn't go beyond that scope.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: I got you. Well,** 

### 18 **that is still a hell of a start.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **Ken, go ahead.** 

### 21 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, I would like** 

### 22 **to just follow up on that. And we took this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 up at the recent Hydraulic Institute Board**  

### 2 **meeting.** 

### 3 **So, as Greg said, on the scope that** 

### 4 **we had originally proposed -- so, it didn't** 

### 5 **include ANSI pumps, et cetera -- we went out** 

### 6 **and got a large group of the HI membership who** 

### 7 **participate in that class and confidentially** 

### 8 **gathered all that technical data. It was a** 

### 9 **huge effort. And we had an independent third** 

### 10 **party aggregate the data.** 

### 11 **We believe it is, for that scope,** 

### 12 **very statistically-significant, an accurate** 

### 13 **representation of the baseline, the current** 

### 14 **state.** 

### 15 **And we recently, through vote of** 

### 16 **the Board, have agreed to provide the DOE with** 

### 17 **that data, and at least for that scope of** 

### 18 **pumps, wherever the scope shakes out, we would** 

### 19 **recommend using that as the baseline because** 

### 20 **we have all validated that data.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 22 **Do you have any questions before I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 move on, Alison?**  

### 2 **MS. WILLIAMS: No, and the** 

### 3 **subsequent questions are basically asking for** 

### 4 **what we are talking about, additional pump** 

### 5 **data that would help improve our database at** 

### 6 **full speed BEP flow, 75, and 110.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: I thought that was** 

### 8 **pretty clear. You don't have any** 

### 9 **clarifications on what they said, no?** 

### 10 **MS. WILLIAMS: No. Just move on.** 

### 11 **Sorry.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Greg?** 

### 13 **MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic** 

### 14 **Institute.** 

### 15 **One more comment. We noticed in** 

### 16 **your data that you have 27,000 pumps listed.** 

### 17 **When Europe did their survey, they had 2,300-** 

### 18 **plus.** 

### 19 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.** 

### 20 **MR. CASE: We have 2,024 in ours.** 

### 21 **So, we believe that your dataset may be a lot** 

### 22 **larger than what the dataset actually is out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 in the universe.**  

### 2 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, just to** 

### 3 **clarify, it does include multiple-speed and** 

### 4 **multiple-stage versions of basic pump models.** 

### 5 **So, it is something we will work to refine in** 

### 6 **the future.** 

### 7 **MR. CASE: But you have over 2,000** 

### 8 **pumps in one style of pump.** 

### 9 **MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-hum.** 

### 10 **MR. CASE: And we didn't come** 

### 11 **anywhere near that. Again, you had a larger** 

### 12 **scope than we did, but I just want to make --** 

### 13 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I don't think** 

### 14 **the scope is all that much larger, but, yes,** 

### 15 **it is coming from 115 manufacturer catalogs** 

### 16 **and all their 60-hertz models at full** 

### 17 **impeller. So, I can't answer to discrepancy.** 

### 18 **Okay. So --** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Wait. Are we there?** 

### 20 **Have you got one more? Yes, one more.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. Okay. So,** 

### 22 **just to follow up, DOE is considering**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 following the EU, also, on the other things of**  

### 2 **basing the standard on full impeller and** 

### 3 **testing based on certain number of stages for** 

### 4 **radial split and submersible pumps.** 

### 5 **And just to mention that we don't** 

### 6 **think the axial split multi-stage could be** 

### 7 **tested in one stage version because they are** 

### 8 **not cellular in nature.** 

### 9 **So, we are basically requesting** 

### 10 **comments on these suggestions.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?** 

### 12 **MR. CASE: We would concur that it** 

### 13 **should be tested at full diameter. That is,** 

### 14 **again, harmonized with the EU standard. We** 

### 15 **all do testing at that diameter. The pump is** 

### 16 **most efficient at that diameter. So, we** 

### 17 **believe that we should stay with that full** 

### 18 **diameter. So, that was 1-40.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. CASE: In 1-41, again, we would** 

### 21 **like to stay harmonized with the EU standard.** 

### 22 **We think the number of single-stage pumps that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 are actually sold is very limited. In the EU**  

### 2 **standard, they use three stages for the radial** 

### 3 **multi-stage and nine stages for the** 

### 4 **submersibles. And we found that that is where** 

### 5 **we took our data points from when we did our** 

### 6 **survey. We find those values to be reasonable** 

### 7 **or those stages to be reasonable.** 

### 8 **If you test these as a one-stage** 

### 9 **pump, you are introducing all the efficiency** 

### 10 **losses for your intake and your discharge into** 

### 11 **that one stage; that will bring those** 

### 12 **efficiencies down.** 

### 13 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Just to** 

### 14 **clarify, the suggestion was, the alternative** 

### 15 **would not necessarily be to test a single** 

### 16 **stage, but to test in whatever configuration** 

### 17 **you are selling your pump.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay.** 

### 19 **And then, finally, 1-42. Comments** 

### 20 **on that? Steve?** 

### 21 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.** 

### 22 **Steve Schmitz, Hydraulic Institute.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 The Hydraulic Institute does not**  

### 2 **have information regarding the percent of** 

### 3 **pumps sold at full impeller diameters, for a** 

### 4 **number of the reasons that have already been** 

### 5 **stated. But we would be happy to cooperate** 

### 6 **with DOE in a joint analysis of obtaining this** 

### 7 **data.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 9 **here? Anything?** 

### 10 **(No response.)** 

### 11 **So, we have reached a point where** 

### 12 **we can pause for lunch.** 

### 13 **And let me say that this has been** 

### 14 **an unusually effective comment at the** 

### 15 **framework stage. I think it is a very, very** 

### 16 **useful gleaning of information. And so, I** 

### 17 **thank all of you.** 

### 18 **Don't go anywhere after lunch.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **It is now 12:30. It takes just** 

### 21 **about an hour to eat if you stay in the** 

### 22 **building. If you leave the building, you need**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 to clear back through security and all that.**  

### 2 **Don't do that. We can all go en masse down** 

### 3 **the elevator and across about 100 yards that** 

### 4 **away to the big cafeteria. There is also a** 

### 5 **Subway shop directly below us on the ground** 

### 6 **floor. You need to go to the ground floor in** 

### 7 **any case to get to eat.** 

### 8 **We are going to resume at 1:30.** 

### 9 **Once again, let me remind you, you must wear** 

### 10 **this badge. This room will be locked. So,** 

### 11 **you can leave your stuff. Someone will be** 

### 12 **here. It will be locked. You might need an** 

### 13 **ID to get back in. In the cafeteria, you will** 

### 14 **have to clear back through a secure portal.** 

### 15 **So, you might need an ID to get back in.** 

### 16 **So, anyway, a very good, very** 

### 17 **constructive morning. Thank you for that.** 

### 18 **We will resume at 1:30 right here.** 

### 19 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 20 **went off the record for lunch at 12:29 p.m.** 

### 21 **and went back on the record at 1:33 p.m.)** 

### 22 **23**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  

### 2 **1:33 p.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: As a tool, and to** 

### 4 **provide information, the Department typically** 

### 5 **makes a Xerox copy of the business cards of** 

### 6 **all the individuals who are present. And so,** 

### 7 **Brenda Edwards just distributed that. And if** 

### 8 **you didn't get one, I am sure you can get your** 

### 9 **hands on a copy. So, that should be there for** 

### 10 **you as a reference document.** 

### 11 **So, we are going to proceed, and we** 

### 12 **are going to pick up where we left off and** 

### 13 **hear about test procedures. We are going to** 

### 14 **hear from Sarah Widder.** 

### 15 **MS. WIDDER: Good afternoon.** 

### 16 **As Doug said, I am Sarah Widder** 

### 17 **from Pacific Northwest National Lab.** 

### 18 **It looks like we haven't quite** 

### 19 **gotten everybody back. So, we will try to** 

### 20 **breeze through this before we get everybody.** 

### 21 **(Laughter.)** 

### 22 **No, I am just kidding. I hope we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 don't have any comments.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **But, hopefully, we have been** 

### 4 **through a lot of the main scope-related issues** 

### 5 **in this morning's discussion that are going to** 

### 6 **be pertinent to the test procedure. So, I** 

### 7 **would like you to keep those in mind.** 

### 8 **And the first point of the test** 

### 9 **procedure is that, as Charlie mentioned, this** 

### 10 **is going to be a separate, but concurrent** 

### 11 **rulemaking process. The test procedure** 

### 12 **rulemaking and the standards rulemaking really** 

### 13 **work together. We need those well-described** 

### 14 **test procedures to understand the basis for** 

### 15 **how we build up that metric for pumps and how** 

### 16 **we understand, then, the ability to save** 

### 17 **energy based on those metrics.** 

### 18 **So, the test procedure is very** 

### 19 **important for the standard, but it is going to** 

### 20 **occur as a separate process. That will start** 

### 21 **with a NOPR document that will be published,** 

### 22 **probably the next document you will see out of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 this effort.**  

### 2 **And then, we will have a NOPR** 

### 3 **public meeting just like this. And that will** 

### 4 **be the opportunity to really get into the** 

### 5 **weeds on some of the technical details.** 

### 6 **Right now, we are just going to** 

### 7 **stay a little bit higher, talking about scope** 

### 8 **and what we want to start to think about for** 

### 9 **the test procedure.** 

### 10 **I sort of described the** 

### 11 **relationship between the standards and the** 

### 12 **test procedure, but once the pumps test** 

### 13 **procedure is established, every manufacturer** 

### 14 **must use that test procedure to establish the** 

### 15 **efficiency metrics and to show compliance with** 

### 16 **DOE standards, once those are set. And so, it** 

### 17 **is really important that we think about both** 

### 18 **the scope and the burden associated with these** 

### 19 **test procedures.** 

### 20 **And as a basis, DOE really looks** 

### 21 **out to the industry, what is available in the** 

### 22 **industry. We want to minimize burden with the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 test procedures and have them have the**  

### 2 **flexibility to establish perhaps efficiency at** 

### 3 **multiple speeds or multiple rating points, if** 

### 4 **that is what we need to sufficiently describe** 

### 5 **the energy use or energy efficiency of a pump,** 

### 6 **but do that with the least amount of** 

### 7 **additional burden.** 

### 8 **So, the first standard, industry** 

### 9 **standard test procedure, and probably the most** 

### 10 **prominent one that DOE reviewed, was HI 14.6,** 

### 11 **and you have heard that brought up. That is** 

### 12 **the test for rotodynamic pumps, and it is an** 

### 13 **acceptance test, that is really the framework** 

### 14 **it is written from currently. It applies to** 

### 15 **any size centrifugal, mixed-flow, or axial** 

### 16 **flow rotodynamic pump without fittings and is** 

### 17 **particular to pumps that use clear water.** 

### 18 **It does have provisions for using** 

### 19 **alternative homogenous liquids, but since we** 

### 20 **are preliminarily considering pumps just for** 

### 21 **clear water applications, we will just be** 

### 22 **using -- the standard would be sufficient to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 test those pumps. It is based on measuring**  

### 2 **the flow of the pump's liquid and, then, the** 

### 3 **power input to the pump to measure efficiency.** 

### 4 **That is harmonized with an ISO** 

### 5 **Standard 9906 that was recently updated and** 

### 6 **has several grades of precision. Those two** 

### 7 **standards, as you have heard, are harmonized** 

### 8 **and have very similar test requirements and** 

### 9 **test metrics, as well as definitions.** 

### 10 **The one thing that 14.6 doesn't** 

### 11 **address very well is submersible pumps. HI** 

### 12 **has a separate standard for that, 11.6. It** 

### 13 **has similar metrics and test conditions. It** 

### 14 **is also harmonized with the 14.6 test for** 

### 15 **rotodynamic pumps, but it is particular to** 

### 16 **submersible pumps where it is very difficult** 

### 17 **to measure the power input to the shaft** 

### 18 **because that is all one package. And also, it** 

### 19 **is particular only to clean water.** 

### 20 **DOE also reviewed the ISO Standard** 

### 21 **for precision class testing, using a** 

### 22 **thermodynamic method. There could be reasons**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221**  **1 to consider a method like that if it is a**  

### 2 **very, very large pump where it is difficult to** 

### 3 **measure flow precisely. So, instead of** 

### 4 **measuring flow based on a flow measurement** 

### 5 **device, it is measured based on thermodynamic** 

### 6 **principles of temperature and pressure of the** 

### 7 **water.** 

### 8 **So, in reviewing those standards,** 

### 9 **DOE is considering using HI 14.6 as the basis** 

### 10 **for the test procedure rulemaking since it** 

### 11 **seems to be a widely-accepted test standard** 

### 12 **for pumps and covers most of the scope of** 

### 13 **pumps we have been discussing here today.** 

### 14 **DOE requests comment on using HI** 

### 15 **14.6 2011 and HI 11.6 for submersible pumps.** 

### 16 **We also request comment on the other standards** 

### 17 **that we reviewed or any other standards that** 

### 18 **we may not have listed here that would be** 

### 19 **important for DOE to be aware of as we move** 

### 20 **forward with the test procedure rulemaking, to** 

### 21 **make sure that we are considering all the** 

### 22 **available procedures.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 We also request comment on the**  

### 2 **scope of these test procedures, if there are** 

### 3 **any particular elements that they are not** 

### 4 **appropriate, or the comment earlier about** 

### 5 **making sure we are able to quantify the** 

### 6 **performance of pumps that are driven by gas or** 

### 7 **engines as opposed to electric motors might be** 

### 8 **something that we will have to consider as we** 

### 9 **move forward.** 

### 10 **And then, DOE is also interested in** 

### 11 **the pros and cons of the thermodynamic** 

### 12 **approach and when that might be more** 

### 13 **appropriate than explicitly measuring flow.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's start with** 

### 15 **1-43.** 

### 16 **Arnold Sdano?** 

### 17 **MR. SDANO: Arnold Sdano, Pentair,** 

### 18 **representing HI.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is that turned on** 

### 20 **(referring to the microphone)?** 

### 21 **MR. SDANO: Thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 MR. SDANO: Arnold Sdano, Pentair,**  

### 2 **representing HI.** 

### 3 **At HI, we have developed a formal,** 

### 4 **written response to this that is a little** 

### 5 **wordy. So, just to summarize, as mentioned** 

### 6 **previously, we have started the efforts or** 

### 7 **drafting a 14.6 DOE because we think that that** 

### 8 **is appropriate. And what it is is a condensed** 

### 9 **version of the 14.6 standard, focusing on what** 

### 10 **is required for this Committee's work, where** 

### 11 **we eliminate things like the mechanical tests** 

### 12 **and NPSH and the effect of reducing impeller** 

### 13 **diameter.** 

### 14 **And towards that end, on the** 

### 15 **extended product approach, we are expanding** 

### 16 **the Appendix G, which is for string testing,** 

### 17 **where we would include the scope of** 

### 18 **submersible pumps or testing with motors and** 

### 19 **VFDs in that appendix as well.** 

### 20 **So, all the appendices that were** 

### 21 **not normative in the existing standard are** 

### 22 **going to be made normative in this standard.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 That draft has been presented to the**  

### 2 **Subcommittee at HI that had prepared it. I am** 

### 3 **starting to get comments back to that, and we** 

### 4 **expect to have that ready to present to the** 

### 5 **Department along with the deadline for these** 

### 6 **comments by, I think it was, May 2nd.** 

### 7 **MS. WIDDER: That is very helpful.** 

### 8 **Thank you.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, you have adapted** 

### 10 **and, as you said, condensed. Is it much** 

### 11 **different than the existing HI 14.6?** 

### 12 **MR. SDANO: What it has done is it** 

### 13 **has focused-in on what we believe are the** 

### 14 **pertinent criteria, Grade 2 testing, Grade** 

### 15 **2(b) acceptance criteria. It doesn't** 

### 16 **reference anything of MEI because we** 

### 17 **understand that that has to be sorted out** 

### 18 **later, you know MEI 10, or whatever the level** 

### 19 **is going to be, nor does it get into what the** 

### 20 **EEI might be as acceptance levels. But it** 

### 21 **sets the protocol, the calibration periods,** 

### 22 **the instrumentation and accuracy, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 instrumentation fluctuations that are**  

### 2 **required.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Excellent. And you** 

### 4 **did not comment on 11.6 and the two ISOs that** 

### 5 **are listed in Comment 1-43.** 

### 6 **MR. SDANO: The elements required** 

### 7 **out of 11.6 are going to be included into the** 

### 8 **Appendix G, which is for string testing.** 

### 9 **Considering that the pump and the motor are a** 

### 10 **combined-unit in submersibles, we think that** 

### 11 **is an appropriate area to include that.** 

### 12 **Ninety percent of those two documents are the** 

### 13 **same already. So, it is the perfect place to** 

### 14 **include that.** 

### 15 **But the thermal method is something** 

### 16 **that we disagree with wholeheartedly; that is** 

### 17 **not, in our experience, used in the United** 

### 18 **States. And the fact that it has a** 

### 19 **publication date of 1999, and since ANSI** 

### 20 **standards come under a five-year review, a** 

### 21 **ten-year cycle, I would suspect it is probably** 

### 22 **in withdrawn status.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay.**  

### 2 **John Cymbalsky?** 

### 3 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks. John** 

### 4 **Cymbalsky, DOE.** 

### 5 **I just wanted to reiterate a little** 

### 6 **bit what Sarah said about representations of** 

### 7 **your products with respect to efficiency.** 

### 8 **When you are developing this test method, and** 

### 9 **as we develop ours, I just want to make it** 

### 10 **clear that any representation that you want to** 

### 11 **make with respect to the efficiency metrics in** 

### 12 **the DOE standard must use the DOE test** 

### 13 **procedure. So, keep this in mind as you are** 

### 14 **developing your test methods.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, okay.** 

### 16 **So, other comments related to 1-43?** 

### 17 **And then, we will proceed on down this comment** 

### 18 **box.** 

### 19 **(No response.)** 

### 20 **Okay. We are moving on, -44 and** 

### 21 **-45.** 

### 22 **(No response.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 Nothing additional?**  

### 2 **Did you want any additional** 

### 3 **queries?** 

### 4 **MS. WIDDER: I am looking forward** 

### 5 **to the HI submission of their revised test** 

### 6 **procedure. I don't think I have any** 

### 7 **additional specific comments at this point.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then, we are** 

### 9 **moving on.** 

### 10 **MS. WIDDER: Okay. And this is** 

### 11 **consistent with what you heard this morning.** 

### 12 **DOE is considering an extended product** 

### 13 **approach that might consider the pump** 

### 14 **inclusive of the motor and VSD, a pumping** 

### 15 **system, in addition to or instead of the pump** 

### 16 **all by itself, if the pump is sold that way** 

### 17 **from the manufacturer.** 

### 18 **If that is the case, then I** 

### 19 **understand that HI is expanding Appendix G,** 

### 20 **which is the string test, to be more specific** 

### 21 **about how to determine the overall wire-to** 

### 22 **water efficiency metric that would be applied**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 to those pumps. That would account for the**  

### 2 **pump efficiency as well as the motor** 

### 3 **efficiency and the VSD efficiency.** 

### 4 **Some things to think about for that** 

### 5 **particular metric, and if we include VSDs,** 

### 6 **are, as we discussed this morning, the** 

### 7 **particular test points that would effectively** 

### 8 **and sufficiently capture the energy use of a** 

### 9 **pumping system with a VSD, such that it wasn't** 

### 10 **overly burdensome for the manufacturer** 

### 11 **producing that pump.** 

### 12 **That is really all I have to say** 

### 13 **about that. I think we have talked a lot** 

### 14 **about some of the issues associated with** 

### 15 **testing pumping systems, as well as pumps by** 

### 16 **themselves, and that it could be very** 

### 17 **burdensome for manufacturers if multiple tests** 

### 18 **are required. And so, making sure that those** 

### 19 **tests are streamlined and, as Alison mentioned** 

### 20 **earlier, perhaps developing a test that we** 

### 21 **could test a pumping system and capture the** 

### 22 **pump efficiency as well as the wire-to-water**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 efficiency on one stand in one test, and**  

### 2 **having those requirements all in the same test** 

### 3 **procedure, would be something that DOE is very** 

### 4 **interested in, if this extended product** 

### 5 **approach is considered.** 

### 6 **So, really, specific comments about** 

### 7 **that and particularly the burden associated** 

### 8 **with multiple test points and how much it** 

### 9 **costs to produce a test. The DOE, as you will** 

### 10 **hear about later on, really considers** 

### 11 **manufacturer burden in the test procedure as** 

### 12 **well as standards rulemaking. And so, data** 

### 13 **related to that will help us craft the** 

### 14 **proposal that will form the NOPR test** 

### 15 **procedure. So, I would put a request for that** 

### 16 **as well.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 18 **MR. FERNSTROM: So, Gary Fernstrom,** 

### 19 **the California Investor Owned Utilities.** 

### 20 **I would encourage DOE to consider** 

### 21 **for this particular category, pump plus motor** 

### 22 **plus VSD, an energy-efficiency approach**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 similar to what Mike was talking about earlier**  

### 2 **which would compare the amount of water** 

### 3 **pumped, the volume of water, to the electric** 

### 4 **energy required to pump that.** 

### 5 **And in order to do that, you have** 

### 6 **to take some system curve into consideration,** 

### 7 **and I would encourage DOE to investigate what** 

### 8 **might be typical system curves for some common** 

### 9 **pump applications. That approach is used in** 

### 10 **swimming pool pumps by the California Energy** 

### 11 **Commission and Energy Star.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Thank you.** 

### 13 **MS. WIDDER: Okay?** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 15 **MS. WIDDER: The next slide is just** 

### 16 **related to test procedure accuracy. This is** 

### 17 **also a very important aspect of the test** 

### 18 **procedure. One of the most important parts of** 

### 19 **the test procedure, actually, is that the** 

### 20 **manufacturers, as well as DOE, can have** 

### 21 **confidence that this is an accurate and** 

### 22 **repeatable representation of the energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 efficiency of a particular product. And**  

### 2 **so, if DOE were to test that particular pump** 

### 3 **and a third-party lab were to test that** 

### 4 **particular pump and the manufacturer were to** 

### 5 **test that particular pump, everyone would get** 

### 6 **the same result. And so, that is something** 

### 7 **that we will definitely need to consider as we** 

### 8 **move forward with the test procedure** 

### 9 **rulemaking.** 

### 10 **I forgot the gentleman's name, but** 

### 11 **from HI who mentioned considering Grade 2 in** 

### 12 **the HI 14.6 DOE draft. That tolerance and** 

### 13 **uncertainty criteria, if that is something the** 

### 14 **industry is comfortable with, we can** 

### 15 **definitely base the uncertainty measurement** 

### 16 **and the tolerances that DOE adopts on** 

### 17 **something that already exists in the industry.** 

### 18 **And that would work well for everyone. But we** 

### 19 **need to make sure that gives DOE as well as** 

### 20 **the manufacturers the right level of certainty** 

### 21 **that we have a repeatable test.** 

### 22 **The Department, in their**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 investigation, understands that some smaller**  

### 2 **pumps, less than 10-kilowatt hours, can have** 

### 3 **higher uncertainty or higher variability in** 

### 4 **their measurement of efficiency. And that is** 

### 5 **something the DOE will have to consider when** 

### 6 **forming this test procedure. We could** 

### 7 **consider wider tolerances, which is currently** 

### 8 **what is in 14.6, on the particular rating or** 

### 9 **on some of the measurement criteria, or - DOE** 

### 10 **requires a certain number of products to be** 

### 11 **tested to form a certification for each** 

### 12 **product - And so, you could increase the** 

### 13 **number of products or pieces of equipment that** 

### 14 **were tested for a particular rating.** 

### 15 **And so, those are some of the** 

### 16 **things that we will be thinking about as we** 

### 17 **move forward in the test procedure rulemaking,** 

### 18 **and DOE encourages comments on those as well.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Neal?** 

### 20 **MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE.** 

### 21 **Just looking back and remembering** 

### 22 **some of the challenges that we encountered**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 with the motor rules a decade-and-a-half ago**  

### 2 **in terms of reproducibility, I think it is** 

### 3 **going to be important for the testing** 

### 4 **community, the industry, and DOE to work** 

### 5 **together to do the reasonable round-robin** 

### 6 **testing, so that we actually have a sense of** 

### 7 **what is normal product variation, what is** 

### 8 **normal test variation facility-to-facility.** 

### 9 **Unfortunately, as you start** 

### 10 **combining pump testing with the motor and** 

### 11 **other associated components, as my colleague,** 

### 12 **Kitt Butler from Advanced Energy, can speak** 

### 13 **to, we have got a lot of variables, both from** 

### 14 **the test as well as in the product itself.** 

### 15 **So, I think to the extent the industry, DOE,** 

### 16 **and the testing community can come together to** 

### 17 **produce some kind of an understanding of what** 

### 18 **is natural variation, I think that would** 

### 19 **contribute substantially to making this work.** 

### 20 **I think for the Department to** 

### 21 **create unrealistic tolerances on the testing** 

### 22 **could potentially be a major problem.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**  

### 2 **Okay. And perhaps 1-47 has been** 

### 3 **addressed already.** 

### 4 **Do you want to set up 1-48?** 

### 5 **MS. WIDDER: Sure. So, we did talk** 

### 6 **about DOE's Request for Comment on applicable** 

### 7 **test procedures for the complete motor** 

### 8 **package. DOE also requests comment on the** 

### 9 **accuracy of different measurement equipment.** 

### 10 **And I think the comment we just heard was** 

### 11 **answering that to some extent, about the** 

### 12 **different contributors to uncertainty in the** 

### 13 **test, both product variability as well as test** 

### 14 **variability. And we will certainly want to** 

### 15 **consider those and would love to work with** 

### 16 **industry to develop appropriate tolerances and** 

### 17 **uncertainty for pumps.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions** 

### 19 **or comments before we move on?** 

### 20 **Yes, Arnold?** 

### 21 **MR. SDANO: Arnold Sdano, Pentair,** 

### 22 **representing HI.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 Most pump manufacturers that are**  

### 2 **members of HI are already performing the** 

### 3 **extended product tests for customers.** 

### 4 **Typically, it would be a wire-to-water, and it** 

### 5 **would include losses of the variable-speed** 

### 6 **drive and the motor and the pump itself.** 

### 7 **What we have learned is that we do** 

### 8 **have to upgrade some of our instrumentation,** 

### 9 **so that, particularly on power analyzers, the** 

### 10 **newer generation of power analyzers in front** 

### 11 **of the VFD are what is required in order to** 

### 12 **accurately measure that and to avoid the** 

### 13 **destruction that the VFD can cause to the** 

### 14 **power readings, if you attempt to measure them** 

### 15 **some other place.** 

### 16 **But it is really something** 

### 17 **manageable and within the scope of what most** 

### 18 **of the HI members are doing today.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 20 **Yes, other thoughts on 1-48, the** 

### 21 **equipment needed, changes that might be made,** 

### 22 **et cetera?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 Gary Fernstrom?**  

### 2 **MR. FERNSTROM: Following up on** 

### 3 **Pentair's comments, many of these VFDs are** 

### 4 **introduced on linear wave forms into the** 

### 5 **utility system. So, it would be important to** 

### 6 **measure their power and energy use with true** 

### 7 **RMS power-measuring equipment.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 9 **MS. WIDDER: Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional thoughts?** 

### 11 **(No response.)** 

### 12 **We are a little bit behind. So,** 

### 13 **let me keep pressing us forward here.** 

### 14 **MS. WIDDER: All right. The next** 

### 15 **Request for Comment relates to the** 

### 16 **applicability of calculation methods. For** 

### 17 **some types of equipment, DOE has considered** 

### 18 **alternative methods of rating equipment or** 

### 19 **coming up with a certification for DOE that** 

### 20 **has to do with rating one representative piece** 

### 21 **of equipment, and then using that rating, that** 

### 22 **tested piece of equipment, to extrapolate**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 ratings for other similar types of equipment**  

### 2 **if there is appropriate calculation methods** 

### 3 **that can be applied. There is an appendix in** 

### 4 **14.6 that does address this somewhat for pumps** 

### 5 **that have similar geometric and kinematic** 

### 6 **characteristics.** 

### 7 **And so, DOE is requesting on** 

### 8 **comment on the applicability of that appendix** 

### 9 **or any other calculation methods to** 

### 10 **establishing reliable ratings for pumps or if** 

### 11 **testing every piece of equipment, every basic** 

### 12 **model is the right approach.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold?** 

### 14 **MR. SDANO: One of the things we** 

### 15 **have done in this draft of 14.6 DOE is we have** 

### 16 **extracted the model test section that I** 

### 17 **believe you might have been referring to.** 

### 18 **However, we do believe that the calculation** 

### 19 **methods are mostly appropriate. Generally,** 

### 20 **what we do as pump manufacturers, and we have** 

### 21 **somewhat of a luxury over perhaps the motor** 

### 22 **manufacturers, of what they have experienced,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 in that we are producing product basically off**  

### 2 **of patterns that pretty much define the** 

### 3 **geometry of a particular pump. And so, we** 

### 4 **will test a particular pump in the development** 

### 5 **stage, go back and modify the patterns, if** 

### 6 **required, and retest it until we get** 

### 7 **through -- and my company refers to it as a** 

### 8 **PPAP process or the first article inspection.** 

### 9 **Once we get it passed, that is kind** 

### 10 **of locked down, and we really only need that** 

### 11 **one sample pump to base our curves on that we** 

### 12 **go to the market with. And that is typical** 

### 13 **throughout the pump industry. But I might** 

### 14 **only test a three-stage turbine, knowing how I** 

### 15 **would extrapolate it for a one-stage up** 

### 16 **through a nine-stage. And so, you know, I am** 

### 17 **using that basis of that test and** 

### 18 **extrapolating it using our calculation method.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 20 **MS. WIDDER: Thank you.** 

### 21 **If any other pump manufacturers -** 

### 22 **maybe not now, but in their written comments -**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 have similar experiences, and DOE would also**  

### 2 **be interested in any sacrifices of accuracy** 

### 3 **that a calculation method would be incurring.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: From Arnold's** 

### 5 **comment, I wasn't sure -- your company does it** 

### 6 **one way, or is it fairly uniform?** 

### 7 **MR. SDANO: I don't know of any** 

### 8 **variations from company-to-company. I believe** 

### 9 **we use very similar processes.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: I just thought I** 

### 11 **would inquire. Okay.** 

### 12 **MS. WIDDER: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good.** 

### 14 **MS. WIDDER: The last Request for** 

### 15 **Comment is on the number of unique pump models** 

### 16 **manufacturers would have to test. And this** 

### 17 **could be with or without the calculation** 

### 18 **method that we have just described, since we** 

### 19 **are interested in the ability of that** 

### 20 **calculation method to reduce test burden, and** 

### 21 **what the burden would be without that** 

### 22 **calculation method.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 We are also interested in, when we**  

### 2 **talk about overall wire-to-water tests, the** 

### 3 **additional burden that might be required at** 

### 4 **additional test points, and any comment** 

### 5 **related to that burden is welcome.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold?** 

### 7 **MR. SDANO: So, just to repeat,** 

### 8 **some of the pump manufacturers are going to** 

### 9 **upgrade their instrumentation to do the** 

### 10 **extended product approach, and that you need a** 

### 11 **higher-quality power analyzer upfront.** 

### 12 **Yes, there probably are additional** 

### 13 **points. We find that frequently on extended** 

### 14 **product approach right now, where customers** 

### 15 **insist on multiple points at different speeds,** 

### 16 **but it is not an undue burden. It is** 

### 17 **something that we face every day. It is an** 

### 18 **everyday occurrence already for us.** 

### 19 **MS. WIDDER: So, just to clarify,** 

### 20 **that is not really an incremental burden? It** 

### 21 **is something that is common in the industry,** 

### 22 **although it is I don't believe normative in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 the standard right now?**  

### 2 **MR. SDANO: That is correct.** 

### 3 **MS. WIDDER: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 4 **One other quick question, add-on on** 

### 5 **the burden question. We talked previously** 

### 6 **about tolerances, and the DOE understands that** 

### 7 **additional, tighter tolerances would increase** 

### 8 **burden. You would need more precise** 

### 9 **measurement equipment and could require more** 

### 10 **tests. And so, how different levels of** 

### 11 **certainty or uncertainty in the test relate to** 

### 12 **burden is also very helpful.** 

### 13 **So, for example, in HI 14.6, if we** 

### 14 **were to move to, say, a Grade 1 tolerance** 

### 15 **versus a Grade 2 tolerance, or down to a Grade** 

### 16 **3 tolerance, what does that do for the cost of** 

### 17 **testing, the burden of testing, from a** 

### 18 **manufacturer's perspective, so we can make an** 

### 19 **informed decision about what the right** 

### 20 **tolerance level is?** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold?** 

### 22 **MR. SDANO: Right now, since HI, as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 members, we test to 14.6, our customers come**  

### 2 **in and audit us against 14.6, and 14.6 defines** 

### 3 **the requirements. When you get in excess of** 

### 4 **200 horsepower, you are going to be to a Grade** 

### 5 **1 already. Those pump manufacturers that make** 

### 6 **that equipment of the higher energy levels, we** 

### 7 **already have the instrumentation that complies** 

### 8 **with that.** 

### 9 **And on the other hand, if it is an** 

### 10 **ANSI-pump manufacturer and generally lower** 

### 11 **horsepowers, you know, they might have much of** 

### 12 **their product shipping as a Grade 3. And so,** 

### 13 **it would have to be an upgrade to meet what we** 

### 14 **are proposing for the 14.6 DOE.** 

### 15 **But the bulk of the manufacturers** 

### 16 **fitting within the scope as suggested, that** 

### 17 **the Grade 2 and 2(b) acceptance levels would** 

### 18 **fit right in with what we do daily.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 20 **MS. WIDDER: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 22 **on this stream of content?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243**  **1 (No response.)**  

### 2 **Okay.** 

### 3 **MS. WIDDER: Yes, I am done. So,** 

### 4 **now I think I am inviting Alison back to the** 

### 5 **podium to talk about, to introduce the** 

### 6 **subsequent rulemaking analyses that DOE will** 

### 7 **perform to set standard levels.** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Thanks,** 

### 9 **Sarah.** 

### 10 **So, whenever DOE does this** 

### 11 **rulemaking procedure, we go through several** 

### 12 **analyses that Charlie introduced briefly** 

### 13 **earlier.** 

### 14 **The first one, we undertake, as** 

### 15 **part of the preliminary analysis, is the** 

### 16 **market and technology assessment. The purpose** 

### 17 **of this is basically to characterize the pumps** 

### 18 **market and the measures to improve** 

### 19 **efficiencies. So, we look at manufacturers,** 

### 20 **shipments and trends, technologies that** 

### 21 **improve efficiency, and different regulatory** 

### 22 **and non-regulatory initiatives related to pump**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244**  **1 efficiency.**  

### 2 **So, as just an overview of the** 

### 3 **manufacturers as far as what DOE understands** 

### 4 **right now, we believe there are 10 companies** 

### 5 **representing 60 to 70 percent of the total** 

### 6 **U.S. pump market, and that these companies** 

### 7 **represent approximately 70 brands or** 

### 8 **divisions. And we do have in the framework** 

### 9 **document a list of those major suppliers and** 

### 10 **their parent companies.** 

### 11 **We have also looked at the Census** 

### 12 **data for pumps that is available through 2010.** 

### 13 **We don't expect any further data to be** 

### 14 **available from the Census because they have** 

### 15 **discontinued that report.** 

### 16 **Pages 46 to 51 of the framework** 

### 17 **document, go through our attempted mapping of** 

### 18 **Census codes to product categories that we are** 

### 19 **looking at, allocations of exports and imports** 

### 20 **to the different product codes because the** 

### 21 **Census presents only very aggregated import** 

### 22 **and export data, and estimated percentage of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245**  **1 pumps in the Census shipments that are serving**  

### 2 **clean water. So, we will welcome comment on** 

### 3 **any of those estimates that we have in the** 

### 4 **framework document.** 

### 5 **And just as a bit of a market** 

### 6 **overview, the estimate is that 89 percent of** 

### 7 **shipments of the covered pumps that DOE is** 

### 8 **considering covering are end suction close** 

### 9 **coupled, but that is only 35 percent by value,** 

### 10 **which as a proxy for energy use might be** 

### 11 **significantly lower.** 

### 12 **And so, again, we are just** 

### 13 **requesting comments on the market assessment.** 

### 14 **We would like any information on pump** 

### 15 **features, efficiencies, trends in efficiency,** 

### 16 **historical shipments, and prices. Bookings** 

### 17 **data would also be important if shipments are** 

### 18 **not available.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 21 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 22 **For pumps that are driven by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246**  **1 electric motors that are covered under DOE**  

### 2 **regulations already specifically talking about** 

### 3 **especially ones from 1 to 200 horsepower that** 

### 4 **already have had energy-efficient standards** 

### 5 **into EPACT '92, DOE is doing another** 

### 6 **rulemaking for those motors. I believe there** 

### 7 **was a joint recommendation from -- well, NEMA** 

### 8 **is not here and the advocates -- in terms of** 

### 9 **new standards that would go into effect in** 

### 10 **2015.** 

### 11 **Are you going to use that** 

### 12 **information to help with your assessment? Or** 

### 13 **have you included that in a preliminary** 

### 14 **assessment?** 

### 15 **MS. WILLIAMS: We can certainly** 

### 16 **look at that data that is available.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark?** 

### 19 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for the** 

### 20 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 21 **Regarding 3.1, the specific** 

### 22 **information that you are asking for here,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247**  **1 Alison, you know, the Hydraulic Institute does**  

### 2 **not have that data. It really resides with** 

### 3 **each of our individual members.** 

### 4 **It would be a considerable** 

### 5 **undertaking to try to gather it. I think that** 

### 6 **is why you are asking for it, is because you** 

### 7 **have figured that out.** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: My understanding is** 

### 9 **that HI does have M10 booking data, though.** 

### 10 **MR. HANDZEL: So, understand that** 

### 11 **M10 bookings data is collected in sales** 

### 12 **dollars.** 

### 13 **MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-hum.** 

### 14 **MR. HANDZEL: So there is no unit** 

### 15 **volume information. So, it is not going to** 

### 16 **give you complete information for what you** 

### 17 **want.** 

### 18 **MS. WILLIAMS: We accept proxy** 

### 19 **information also.** 

### 20 **(Laughter.)** 

### 21 **MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So, I think we** 

### 22 **will take that under advisement. In our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248**  **1 written response, we will evaluate including**  

### 2 **that information. Okay? So, that is 3.1.** 

### 3 **I have a response for 3.2. Are we** 

### 4 **ready to move on to that?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. HANDZEL: And, Alison, you have** 

### 7 **kind of already hit on some of this, but I** 

### 8 **will just say -- I have a written thing -- the** 

### 9 **Hydraulic Institute wishes to clarify that,** 

### 10 **historically, the U.S. Census data has not** 

### 11 **aligned with the ANSI/HI nomenclature** 

### 12 **descriptions. So, we cannot provide accurate** 

### 13 **input on this question.** 

### 14 **Furthermore, we want to point out** 

### 15 **that the U.S. Census data MA333 report was an** 

### 16 **estimate in the sense that they collected some** 

### 17 **data and, then, used load factors to increase** 

### 18 **the data to give an overall number. So, we** 

### 19 **have concerns about its accuracy.** 

### 20 **And then, lastly, you have already** 

### 21 **said the data hasn't been collected since** 

### 22 **2010, and it doesn't sound like it is going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249**  **1 be collected again. So, we just really**  

### 2 **struggle with the data that is there.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: But would you be** 

### 4 **willing to characterize the accuracy of the** 

### 5 **Census data?** 

### 6 **MR. HANDZEL: I am not comfortable** 

### 7 **doing that.** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **We haven't talked about that as a** 

### 10 **group. So, I can't really give you an answer** 

### 11 **on that, though.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Neal?** 

### 13 **MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE.** 

### 14 **I would also note that 2010** 

### 15 **shipments data was still with the depths of** 

### 16 **the Great Recession. And so, that data may** 

### 17 **not be reflective of overall market** 

### 18 **characteristics. So, it should be dealt with** 

### 19 **with a great deal of caution.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: I just also wanted** 

### 22 **to comment on that. Some of the things we did**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250**  **1 in the framework with the 2010 data in terms**  

### 2 **of disaggregation or allocation, if we get** 

### 3 **input on whether or not those were good, we** 

### 4 **can apply them to historical Census data as** 

### 5 **well. So, we don't plan to use only 2010.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Did they address 3.3** 

### 7 **fully, Alison?** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: It sounds like there** 

### 9 **is not really any information on it.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional** 

### 11 **on that? Okay. Let's go.** 

### 12 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, in terms** 

### 13 **of the market assessment, one of the things** 

### 14 **that DOE does is develop equipment classes.** 

### 15 **Each equipment class is subject to its own** 

### 16 **standard.** 

### 17 **So, here, what we are looking at is** 

### 18 **equipment classes that DOE is considering.** 

### 19 **Right now, they are basically aligning** 

### 20 **directly with the equipment categories that** 

### 21 **you have seen before, although we do have a** 

### 22 **design speed addition on the right side. I am**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251**  **1 going to get into design speed in a couple of**  

### 2 **more slides.** 

### 3 **So, just in terms of the equipment** 

### 4 **classes, the things that DOE can base them on** 

### 5 **is type of energy, capacity, and performance.** 

### 6 **We are not proposing to do type of energy at** 

### 7 **this point because pumps driven by engines are** 

### 8 **currently considered just to regulate the** 

### 9 **pumps themselves regardless of the fuel.** 

### 10 **Capacity we are not considering because we are** 

### 11 **considering the standard as a function of flow** 

### 12 **and specific speed, which would address that.** 

### 13 **So, we are only looking at performance-related** 

### 14 **features right now.** 

### 15 **In addition, there are comments** 

### 16 **about this. DOE understands that some of** 

### 17 **these equipment classes maybe could be** 

### 18 **aggregated together and some may need further** 

### 19 **disaggregation. So, we are interested in** 

### 20 **whether, for example, end suction close** 

### 21 **coupled and frame-mounted can be a single** 

### 22 **equipment class because the wet ends are often**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252**  **1 identical.**  

### 2 **So, I will just move to the comment** 

### 3 **slide. We are interested in 3-4 about other** 

### 4 **performance-related features that maybe we** 

### 5 **haven't considered for equipment classes that** 

### 6 **should be in. And then, as well, in 3-5 or** 

### 7 **3-6, different disaggregations or aggregations** 

### 8 **that should potentially be made to these** 

### 9 **equipment classes.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe you could** 

### 11 **return to the preceding slide.** 

### 12 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 14 **MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you.** 

### 15 **Along the lines of what you have** 

### 16 **heard previously, HI does not believe that DOE** 

### 17 **should pursue evaluating different equipment** 

### 18 **classes, and that we would support maintaining** 

### 19 **the originally-mentioned descriptions for pump** 

### 20 **types as it applies to the EU Directive.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to clarify,** 

### 22 **you just mean that you only want those pump**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253**  **1 types to be considered as equipment classes?**  

### 2 **MR. SCHMITZ: Correct.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Any other thoughts** 

### 4 **on aggregations, disaggregations, variations** 

### 5 **from what is presented in slide 78?** 

### 6 **John Cymbalsky?** 

### 7 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Maybe I am jumping** 

### 8 **ahead a little bit. But if DOE today were to** 

### 9 **just take the EU standard and the EU product** 

### 10 **classes and apply them as the standard, what** 

### 11 **percent do you think of the pumps out there** 

### 12 **now would fall off the market? Do we know** 

### 13 **that number? I may have asked this at one of** 

### 14 **our ex parte meetings.** 

### 15 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Let me take a** 

### 16 **shot.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 18 **MR. NAPOLITANO: So, there are two** 

### 19 **separate questions there. One is, what scope** 

### 20 **of product by market volume -- I mean, it gets** 

### 21 **back to the market -- does the EU scope? The** 

### 22 **question of how many fall out is where you set**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254**  **1 the MEI index.**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Right.** 

### 3 **MR. NAPOLITANO: So, the EU** 

### 4 **standard set initially of .1, which translates** 

### 5 **to the worst 10 percent of the current state** 

### 6 **snapshot dropout, and then, eventually,** 

### 7 **escalates over time to a .4, which means you** 

### 8 **are taking out the worst 40 percent** 

### 9 **performers.** 

### 10 **So, there are two things. One,** 

### 11 **scope, how many pumps are you capturing? And** 

### 12 **then, two, where do you set that MEI index?** 

### 13 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. And do you** 

### 14 **think that the U.S. market is similar in** 

### 15 **stature to the EU market?** 

### 16 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. The** 

### 17 **discussion that we had earlier -- and Greg** 

### 18 **will jump in -- around the MEI and the** 

### 19 **C-factor and the difference between the** 

### 20 **dataset that they used when they captured the** 

### 21 **current state of the market of products versus** 

### 22 **what we captured versus the 27,000 points**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255**  **1 basically says you can get very close**  

### 2 **ultimately to that same current set of data,** 

### 3 **tweak the C-factor a little bit, and then,** 

### 4 **choose to set your MEI index, which, then, by** 

### 5 **definition, says whatever that dataset is, I** 

### 6 **am taking the worst 10 percent out, the next** 

### 7 **level, however you want to set that. And** 

### 8 **then, you could ultimately figured out tied to** 

### 9 **an energy saving.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Greg.** 

### 11 **MR. CASE: Greg Case, PD-cubed, on** 

### 12 **behalf of HI.** 

### 13 **One of the things that we found** 

### 14 **when we first analyzed the EU methodology, and** 

### 15 **we took a small sample, kind of a straw poll** 

### 16 **of HI manufacturers, we found that we did get** 

### 17 **the 10 percent and the 40 percent dropout rate** 

### 18 **when we applied their C-factors to our data,** 

### 19 **that limited, very limited set of data.** 

### 20 **And the reason that that happened** 

### 21 **was we did it as an aggregate. We looked at** 

### 22 **all the different pump types. And when we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256**  **1 bring them together, yes, we got a 10 percent**  

### 2 **and a 40 percent dropout rate, just like they** 

### 3 **did.** 

### 4 **When we went and got the larger set** 

### 5 **of data that we are going to supply to the** 

### 6 **DOE, and we looked at by equipment class, we** 

### 7 **got much different fallout rates than they** 

### 8 **did. And so, adjusting, as Ken was saying,** 

### 9 **adjusting that C-factor allowed us to get the** 

### 10 **40 percent and the 10 percent dropout rates,** 

### 11 **just like they did, with the adjusted** 

### 12 **C-factor.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Got it.** 

### 14 **MR. CASE: Now, as an aggregate,** 

### 15 **you would probably get close to the 10 and the** 

### 16 **40 percent.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Did we get** 

### 18 **3-7?** 

### 19 **MS. WILLIAMS: No. So, 3-7, we are** 

### 20 **interested in specific equipment classes that** 

### 21 **would always be used in variable load** 

### 22 **applications.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, please?**  

### 2 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, on** 

### 3 **behalf of the Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 4 **Again, we just wanted to clarify** 

### 5 **that the equipment class does not determine** 

### 6 **whether or not a pump can be used in variable** 

### 7 **load applications. Really, the application is** 

### 8 **what defines this, and there is no other way** 

### 9 **to explain it. That is just the way it is.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: The industry** 

### 11 **representatives seem aligned on this point.** 

### 12 **It is okay to have a counterpoint here in this** 

### 13 **room, if anybody has one.** 

### 14 **(Laughter.)** 

### 15 **(No response.)** 

### 16 **Okay. We are moving on.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, to move** 

### 18 **on to whether or not design speed should be** 

### 19 **included as a differentiator of equipment** 

### 20 **classes, just to note that the EU regulation** 

### 21 **does contain separate efficiency standards for** 

### 22 **pumps operating with two-pole and four-pole**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258**  **1 motors.**  

### 2 **Our understanding is that this** 

### 3 **captures a size effect in which a larger pump** 

### 4 **running at lower speeds is more efficient than** 

### 5 **a smaller pump at higher speeds. However, the** 

### 6 **implication of setting these two different** 

### 7 **standards results in different predicted** 

### 8 **efficiency for the same pump running at** 

### 9 **multiple speeds.** 

### 10 **So, DOE is interested in a possible** 

### 11 **result of this on market shift or other issues** 

### 12 **and wants to make sure that the way the** 

### 13 **efficiency equations and standards are set is** 

### 14 **appropriate for pumps running at different** 

### 15 **speeds.** 

### 16 **And regardless of whether DOE sets** 

### 17 **equipment classes based on a design speed,** 

### 18 **there has to be some determination of what** 

### 19 **speed is used for testing and compliance. It** 

### 20 **might be difficult to select a single speed** 

### 21 **for testing because of variation in each** 

### 22 **equipment class. Another possibility would be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259**  **1 to require calculating minimum efficiency at**  

### 2 **multiple speeds and, then, requiring** 

### 3 **compliance at one of those speeds, such as the** 

### 4 **one with the greatest efficiency requirement** 

### 5 **or the lowest efficiency requirement or the** 

### 6 **most stringent one.** 

### 7 **So, again, we just want to request** 

### 8 **comment on various issues related to this** 

### 9 **design speed problem. There's a whole bunch** 

### 10 **of pages in the framework document that gets** 

### 11 **into a lot more detail about this that we** 

### 12 **don't have time to get into right now.** 

### 13 **But one of them relates to whether** 

### 14 **or not it is better to use Reynolds number** 

### 15 **instead of flow for setting these standards.** 

### 16 **And again, in 3-9, I already mentioned we are** 

### 17 **interested in what method of surface-fitting** 

### 18 **provides the most appropriate predicted or the** 

### 19 **minimum efficiency for different pumps.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold?** 

### 21 **MR. SDANO: ANSI/HI 20.3 2009,** 

### 22 **efficiency prediction method, that is a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260**  **1 standard we have. I have chaired that**  

### 2 **Committee. What we did is we brought all the** 

### 3 **information we could find in the industry** 

### 4 **together of how do you predict pump efficiency** 

### 5 **when we drafted that standard. We went out** 

### 6 **and polled our members and came up with their** 

### 7 **efficiency based on equipment class and** 

### 8 **divided it up that way.** 

### 9 **And one of the problems that we saw** 

### 10 **with using the Reynolds number, or** 

### 11 **particularly that was extracted from HH** 

### 12 **Anderson, was that it doesn't reflect the** 

### 13 **significant change in design when you go from** 

### 14 **a pure radial volute-type pump to a vertical** 

### 15 **turbine-type pump, where it becomes a mixed** 

### 16 **flow. And so, instead of a single hump on** 

### 17 **efficiency at about 2500 U.S. Units specific** 

### 18 **speed, in fact, our data showed that we had a** 

### 19 **two-humped camel, and it was based on a change** 

### 20 **in design when you got into mixed flow and** 

### 21 **reflected the difference between volute and a** 

### 22 **diffuser-type pump.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261**  **1 And so, we recommend going out, and**  

### 2 **that is what we are collecting data, and based** 

### 3 **on different pump types, is it a more** 

### 4 **appropriate method if we would look towards** 

### 5 **the 20.3? You can see the way we ended up** 

### 6 **there, and we think that is much more** 

### 7 **appropriate.** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, in terms of** 

### 9 **20.3, as I recall, that is just flow and** 

### 10 **specific speed correction, and doesn't correct** 

### 11 **separately for design speed, as the EU does?** 

### 12 **MR. SDANO: No, in 14.6, in the** 

### 13 **model section we have already talked about,** 

### 14 **though, there is a Reynolds number scale-up,** 

### 15 **but that variation is just minute in** 

### 16 **comparison to the change in the pump type.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, is HI** 

### 18 **proposing to use those design speed equipment** 

### 19 **classes the way that EU did or no?** 

### 20 **MR. SDANO: Yes.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes? Okay. So, you** 

### 22 **are proposing -- I mean, I know you don't like**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262**  **1 to use equipment categories.**  

### 2 **MR. SDANO: With different** 

### 3 **C-factors for different types of pumps.** 

### 4 **MS. WILLIAMS: But you --** 

### 5 **MR. SDANO: Yes.** 

### 6 **MS. WILLIAMS: -- agree with having** 

### 7 **the different --** 

### 8 **MR. SDANO: That is correct.** 

### 9 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And so, in** 

### 10 **the next comment related to that, we are** 

### 11 **interested in how testing occurs in the EU.** 

### 12 **You know, if you have a single-pump model that** 

### 13 **is offered at multiple speeds, what speed do** 

### 14 **the manufacturers determine to test it at, and** 

### 15 **any other of these comments related to the** 

### 16 **speed issue?** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?** 

### 18 **MR. CASE: To go back to 3-9,** 

### 19 **because we do advocate at HI -- Greg Case,** 

### 20 **Hydraulic Institute -- we do advocate that we** 

### 21 **would support the different speeds in the** 

### 22 **testing. Okay? Because we have found that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 263**  **1 there are significant data differences between**  

### 2 **the two, just as you did in your comments.** 

### 3 **There are also things that we do** 

### 4 **design-wise to the impeller to be able to --** 

### 5 **or to the pump itself, things like that, with** 

### 6 **the larger or higher-speed equipment. So, on** 

### 7 **the efficiency, balance holes, things like** 

### 8 **that that we might do.** 

### 9 **Moving on to the 3-10, we do** 

### 10 **believe that you should be using separate** 

### 11 **equations for the multiple speed.** 

### 12 **MS. WILLIAMS: And so, then, if you** 

### 13 **have a pump model offered at multiple speeds,** 

### 14 **in the EU are people testing at both speeds?** 

### 15 **MR. CASE: Yes. And it would have** 

### 16 **different C-factors based on those two tests.** 

### 17 **Again, you may sell a pump at four-pole speed** 

### 18 **and, actually, modify that pump slightly to** 

### 19 **run at two-pole speed, based on thrust** 

### 20 **balancing and things like that.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 264**  **1 EEI.**  

### 2 **Just again, this is a quick follow** 

### 3 **up. Then, would that mean that you would have** 

### 4 **to test the same pump at multiple speeds and,** 

### 5 **then, at three BEP conditions? Or are there** 

### 6 **some calculations in there?** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?** 

### 8 **MR. CASE: You would have two BEPs** 

### 9 **that you test at but three points on the** 

### 10 **curve. Most of our testing actually happens** 

### 11 **on multiple points on the curve, possibly** 

### 12 **seven or more, when we are running these** 

### 13 **tests. But we would test at the 75, 110, and** 

### 14 **the BEP for both speeds, correct.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to set** 

### 16 **up -- do you have follow-on? I like your** 

### 17 **questioning. It is good.** 

### 18 **MS. WILLIAMS: No, I think that --** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Did we get 3-11,** 

### 20 **-12, and -13 yet?** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: They are kind of all** 

### 22 **related. So, it sounds like the answer to -12**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 265**  **1 and -13 --**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: And I think they** 

### 3 **talked about testing and compliance burden, at** 

### 4 **least globally.** 

### 5 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: And then, is there** 

### 7 **any other specific query you want to put out** 

### 8 **there, based on this comment box?** 

### 9 **MS. WILLIAMS: I don't have any.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. No additional** 

### 11 **comments? We are moving on.** 

### 12 **Greg?** 

### 13 **MR. CASE: We would, again, the** 

### 14 **testing would be done at nominal speeds, not** 

### 15 **some intermediate speed. So, we would say** 

### 16 **two-pole and four-pole nominal speeds at 60** 

### 17 **hertz.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Sixty? Okay.** 

### 19 **MS. WILLIAMS: All right. And just** 

### 20 **to clarify something I didn't say earlier, the** 

### 21 **DOE has not yet determined how many speeds or** 

### 22 **poles it is covering. So, if it decides to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 266**  **1 cover more speeds, then this would actually**  

### 2 **break down into additional speeds for six-pole** 

### 3 **and eight-pole motors, for example.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?** 

### 5 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 6 **I just want to make sure I** 

### 7 **understand kind of the questions. Is this** 

### 8 **about that in some cases the same physical** 

### 9 **pump can be operated at different speeds? And** 

### 10 **so, that pump could fall into different, the** 

### 11 **same pump could fall into more than one** 

### 12 **equipment class?** 

### 13 **MR. LLENZA: The usage of the pump** 

### 14 **could be more than just one application. That** 

### 15 **is what I think.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: That was Charles.** 

### 17 **Albert, do you want to take that** 

### 18 **one?** 

### 19 **MR. HUBER: Yes. I mean, you can,** 

### 20 **but the efficiency is going to be different.** 

### 21 **And therefore, we would test at all speeds** 

### 22 **that we were going to be held to. That is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 267**  **1 what we do today.**  

### 2 **MS. MAUER: So, the same pump might** 

### 3 **be tested at different speeds and certified at** 

### 4 **different speeds as meeting standards that** 

### 5 **apply to --** 

### 6 **MR. HUBER: Yes, for that speed,** 

### 7 **yes.** 

### 8 **MS. MAUER: -- different product** 

### 9 **classes?** 

### 10 **MR. HUBER: Yes. For that speed,** 

### 11 **yes.** 

### 12 **I don't really know how you would** 

### 13 **have your product classes, whether you would** 

### 14 **break it down by speed or you would just have** 

### 15 **the class and, then, show the different** 

### 16 **speeds. I really don't know.** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: This is Charles** 

### 18 **Llenza, Department of Energy.** 

### 19 **So, for a pump that is tested at** 

### 20 **different speeds, would you give it a nominal** 

### 21 **rating or an average rating for efficiency** 

### 22 **or --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 268**  **1 MR. NAPOLITANO: Well, you would**  

### 2 **just have a rating specific to each of the** 

### 3 **primary speeds that that pump would typically** 

### 4 **run. So, if you looked in any manufacturer's** 

### 5 **performance data, catalog of pump curves, you** 

### 6 **would see a given size pump and you would see** 

### 7 **a performance curve at two-pole speed and at** 

### 8 **four-pole speed and maybe at six-pole speed,** 

### 9 **because not only is the head and flow** 

### 10 **different, but the efficiency characteristics** 

### 11 **are slightly different at those different** 

### 12 **speeds, enough to warrant taking the data and** 

### 13 **publishing it at its different speeds.** 

### 14 **So, whether that means that it is a** 

### 15 **different equipment class I guess ultimately** 

### 16 **depends on how the equipment classes are** 

### 17 **defined and whether the exact same pump runs** 

### 18 **at two different speeds. It is two classes.** 

### 19 **If it is, then the answer is yes, and if it** 

### 20 **isn't, the answer is no.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Yes.** 

### 22 **Gary Fernstrom?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 269**  **1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, where this**  

### 2 **plays out is with the variable-speed pump** 

### 3 **motor and controller. So, you know, you would** 

### 4 **want to have information reported at different** 

### 5 **speeds that this equipment would likely be run** 

### 6 **at. And again, my frame of reference goes** 

### 7 **back to the swimming pool pumps where we** 

### 8 **specify different speeds -- high speed, half** 

### 9 **speed, low speed, and best efficiency speed --** 

### 10 **that we would like to see the efficiency rated** 

### 11 **at. But it may different for this** 

### 12 **application.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken, please, yes.** 

### 14 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Okay. Gary, so in** 

### 15 **the case of a variable-speed drive, and what** 

### 16 **we have talked about is an extended product,** 

### 17 **the approach that we are proposing,** 

### 18 **essentially, goes after wire-to-water, right?** 

### 19 **It says I am going to apply a load profile to** 

### 20 **this integrated pump motor drive, and I am** 

### 21 **going to measure for how much output I get,** 

### 22 **how much energy input am I consuming. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 270**  **1 that takes all of the variables into account.**  

### 2 **So, if, for example, the pump** 

### 3 **hydraulic efficiency at a lower speeds is** 

### 4 **slightly different than it is at the same** 

### 5 **point at a higher speed, that all comes out in** 

### 6 **the wash with the wire-to-water, because you** 

### 7 **are, then, basically, what are you putting in** 

### 8 **and what are you getting out, and everything** 

### 9 **in between is the aggregated efficiency.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest?** 

### 11 **MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant.** 

### 12 **I understand what you are saying.** 

### 13 **But the benefit of having different** 

### 14 **efficiencies published at different ratings,** 

### 15 **you know, different loads, is that we can,** 

### 16 **then, use that to evaluate the economics on a** 

### 17 **client that may have a different load profile** 

### 18 **than the test load profile.** 

### 19 **So, integrating everything into a** 

### 20 **single metric and reporting just that metric** 

### 21 **wouldn't give us the information we need to** 

### 22 **see if it is cost-effective on a single-speed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 271**  **1 customer or, you know, someone very different**  

### 2 **low profile. I don't know if that is what you** 

### 3 **are going at, Gary.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 5 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Well, first of** 

### 6 **all, we would agree with that. We are already** 

### 7 **saying that we do today publish the efficiency** 

### 8 **at multiple speeds --** 

### 9 **MR. RIVEST: Okay.** 

### 10 **MR. NAPOLITANO: -- and in some** 

### 11 **cases, even a variable-speed version of that** 

### 12 **curve that gives gradations in between the** 

### 13 **nominal motor speeds.** 

### 14 **MR. RIVEST: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. NAPOLITANO: So, I think we** 

### 16 **have --** 

### 17 **MR. RIVEST: Okay. I was just** 

### 18 **concerned that you were collapsing everything** 

### 19 **and reporting just that one --** 

### 20 **MR. NAPOLITANO: No, just the point** 

### 21 **that, when you ultimately did the wire-and** 

### 22 **water test --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 272**  **1 MR. RIVEST: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. NAPOLITANO: -- it was taking** 

### 3 **all of those components into account.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?** 

### 5 **MR. FERNSTROM: I will pass.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Have we** 

### 7 **covered this?** 

### 8 **MS. WILLIAMS: I think we have.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's go on.** 

### 10 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, when DOE** 

### 11 **performs its engineering analysis that we will** 

### 12 **talk about next, sometimes DOE does not** 

### 13 **analyze all of the equipment classes** 

### 14 **separately. So, one thing that DOE can do is** 

### 15 **select some representative classes that** 

### 16 **results can be used to extrapolate to the** 

### 17 **other classes.** 

### 18 **So, just in terms of analysis, the** 

### 19 **things that DOE has identified that could** 

### 20 **possibly be combined are end suction close** 

### 21 **coupled and frame-mounted pumps and possibly** 

### 22 **vertical turbine and submersible pumps,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 273**  **1 depending on the metric chosen for those.**  

### 2 **Within the representative classes,** 

### 3 **DOE traditionally selects representative units** 

### 4 **to analyze as a basis to determine the** 

### 5 **incremental costs associated with increases in** 

### 6 **efficiency. So, in general, these are units** 

### 7 **that are functionally equivalent in all** 

### 8 **aspects except efficiency. So, a lot of** 

### 9 **times, for example, for motors, you will look** 

### 10 **at the same motor at standard and premium** 

### 11 **efficiency.** 

### 12 **For pumps, what we think would** 

### 13 **happen is we would have to find pumps with** 

### 14 **approximately the same BEP flow and specific** 

### 15 **speed, but with different efficiency levels.** 

### 16 **And we understand that these may be a little** 

### 17 **more difficult to find than traditional** 

### 18 **products because the same manufacturer will** 

### 19 **not necessarily offer multiple pumps at the** 

### 20 **same BEP because they are covering a wide area** 

### 21 **of duty points.** 

### 22 **So, then, once DOE selects these**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 274**  **1 representative units, and again, scale the**  

### 2 **results from the analysis to the full range of** 

### 3 **flow and specific speeds within the equipment** 

### 4 **class, efficiency results could possibly be** 

### 5 **scaled with some of the 3D figures that we** 

### 6 **have looked at now, but DOE also has to** 

### 7 **determine ways to scale the cost.** 

### 8 **So, I have some Requests for** 

### 9 **Comments here. And actually, thinking about** 

### 10 **it, some of these might be best answered after** 

### 11 **we have gone a little farther. But, in case** 

### 12 **someone has a comment right now, we are** 

### 13 **basically seeking information on whether there** 

### 14 **is any representative classes that could be** 

### 15 **grouped together and what representative units** 

### 16 **would be most appropriate.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 19 **EEI.** 

### 20 **And I will use my experience with** 

### 21 **the transformers. You know, I don't mind the** 

### 22 **concept of this. I just know that sometimes**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 275**  **1 when you have too wide of a swathe, you get**  

### 2 **some very interesting results because of the** 

### 3 **representative class is too large. And I will** 

### 4 **just say for like the transformers, for** 

### 5 **certain types of transformers, you were going** 

### 6 **anywhere from 10 KVA to 333 KVA in terms of** 

### 7 **capacity. And, yes, they were the same design** 

### 8 **line, but they are different products when you** 

### 9 **get right down to it. They are doing the same** 

### 10 **function, but because of their size and** 

### 11 **because of some of their application, they** 

### 12 **could be significantly different products.** 

### 13 **And the fact that, again, the** 

### 14 **current scope is anywhere from 1 to 200** 

### 15 **horsepower, again, you are talking about, I** 

### 16 **will say, physically small to very large. And** 

### 17 **then, when you put in the variable-speed** 

### 18 **drives on top of that, again, I am just** 

### 19 **thinking that, then, there is probably, from 1** 

### 20 **to 200 horsepower, that is at least 20** 

### 21 **different motor sizes at least right there** 

### 22 **within each class of product here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 276**  **1 So, I like the idea, but I think**  

### 2 **there has to be real care, especially in terms** 

### 3 **of either motor horsepower that is serving or** 

### 4 **engine -- excuse me -- steam or diesel engine** 

### 5 **or electric motor, the size of the motor or** 

### 6 **engine that is serving the product as well as** 

### 7 **just physical size and possibly the** 

### 8 **application, just because of the fact, you** 

### 9 **know, just in terms of cost and, then,** 

### 10 **actually, in terms of some of the loading,** 

### 11 **there is going to be such a variation. You** 

### 12 **might be making, when you get right down to** 

### 13 **it, there could be, you know, 50 products** 

### 14 **being analyzed here. And that is before you** 

### 15 **get to the motor horsepower from the 1 to 200** 

### 16 **horsepower.** 

### 17 **So, I like the idea, but I think** 

### 18 **there is going to be some pretty small ranges** 

### 19 **of representative classes to get better** 

### 20 **accuracy in terms of results.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 277**  **1 MR. SDANO: Frankly, I am kind of**  

### 2 **at a loss to understand why you would select** 

### 3 **one specific speed and one flow for that** 

### 4 **analysis. A pump type is going to have a** 

### 5 **significant impact on what efficiency you get.** 

### 6 **Basically, you are only confirming** 

### 7 **one point on that entire 3D curve that** 

### 8 **Europump came up with for their MEI. And I** 

### 9 **don't know how you would extrapolate that from** 

### 10 **that point.** 

### 11 **MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant** 

### 12 **Consulting.** 

### 13 **Can you put up the figure with the** 

### 14 **dots and the lines?** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Which one?** 

### 16 **MR. RIVEST: I think I saw one.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: There?** 

### 18 **MR. RIVEST: Right.** 

### 19 **So, this would represent all the** 

### 20 **pumps in a particular product class. And what** 

### 21 **makes a product class is that every pump** 

### 22 **within that class would have to meet the same**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 278**  **1 efficiency equation.**  

### 2 **And earlier, there was a** 

### 3 **description of how the EU set the standard, so** 

### 4 **that that first standard line would eliminate** 

### 5 **from the market 10 percent of the pumps, so 10** 

### 6 **percent of the dots, and then, with an intent** 

### 7 **of eliminating 40 percent of the dots** 

### 8 **eventually.** 

### 9 **If you were aggregating too many** 

### 10 **product classes, too many types of pumps that** 

### 11 **really should not be in the same product** 

### 12 **class, as you lift that standard from 10 to** 

### 13 **40, you would notice that certain types of** 

### 14 **pumps are disappearing completely. What that** 

### 15 **would mean is that you really haven't** 

### 16 **established the product classes correctly. If** 

### 17 **they were established correctly, all of the** 

### 18 **pump types, part of that class would be** 

### 19 **eliminated at the same rate. So, that is one** 

### 20 **way of thinking of what we are trying to do** 

### 21 **with the class, just not separate things up** 

### 22 **too much, but, then, not aggregate them so**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 279**  **1 much that, by raising the bar, we are**  

### 2 **eliminating certain types of pumps.** 

### 3 **Then, the idea of a representative** 

### 4 **unit is, what we are trying to do is determine** 

### 5 **the cost-effectiveness to the consumer of** 

### 6 **raising that curve from baseline, say zero, to** 

### 7 **10 or to 40. And what we do is we try to** 

### 8 **purchase a pump at 40 that is on that line of** 

### 9 **40 percent and one that is at the bottom at** 

### 10 **zero and say, okay, what design features are** 

### 11 **incorporated in the better pump, and how much** 

### 12 **does it cost to get there?** 

### 13 **And to do that tradeoff analysis** 

### 14 **between the incremental cost of that pump and** 

### 15 **the economics, and the payback to the** 

### 16 **consumer. Of course, we can't do that for** 

### 17 **every pump here. So, we try to pick on that** 

### 18 **locus of points -- can you put that back** 

### 19 **there? -- where is the highest density of** 

### 20 **bumps, if you will, and the flow there** 

### 21 **being -- say you were to take your** 

### 22 **representative units at 600 gallons per minute**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 280**  **1 and base your analysis on the economics of**  

### 2 **that type of pump. So, we would look at the** 

### 3 **cost of zero, the red line, the cost of the** 

### 4 **blue line, do the economics on that, and then,** 

### 5 **from that representative unit, make a** 

### 6 **conclusion about the cost-effectiveness of** 

### 7 **going to 40 percent.** 

### 8 **If we are using a representative** 

### 9 **unit, the representative pump as being that** 

### 10 **one, we would, then, extend our conclusion to** 

### 11 **all the pumps on this graph and say, well, if** 

### 12 **it is cost-effective for the 600 to go to 40** 

### 13 **percent, we are going to go to 40 percent on** 

### 14 **everything else.** 

### 15 **If you know something about how** 

### 16 **these costs scale, you may say, "That's just** 

### 17 **not right because it is cost-effective to go** 

### 18 **to 40 percent at one size, but not at** 

### 19 **another." We may decide to break that down** 

### 20 **into three segments, look at a 200, a 600, and** 

### 21 **a 1200, and then, set the cost-effective level** 

### 22 **using the economics of each of those**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 281**  **1 separately. So, that is what a representative**  

### 2 **unit would be. That is how we would use it.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Albert?** 

### 4 **MR. HUBER: Albert Huber from HI.** 

### 5 **Just so there is no** 

### 6 **misunderstanding about the MEI that Europe is** 

### 7 **using, what they are endeavoring to do is they** 

### 8 **look at the market as a whole. And because** 

### 9 **none of our BEPs are always the same flow for** 

### 10 **any product class, that is another difficulty** 

### 11 **you have with pumps. Not everybody's BEP for** 

### 12 **a certain size pump is at 500 gallons, for** 

### 13 **instance. It could be 450; it could be 550.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry, the BEP** 

### 15 **was what again?** 

### 16 **MR. HUBER: The Best Efficiency** 

### 17 **Point.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. HUBER: So, what it does is you** 

### 20 **take a full diameter impeller for a particular** 

### 21 **class of pump -- and Greg can correct me if I** 

### 22 **am wrong -- but you take it, and you take the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 282**  **1 BEP, you take 75 percent, and you take the 110**  

### 2 **percent. And then, you measure the total** 

### 3 **population. Everybody in the marketplace** 

### 4 **submits; in this case, the HI did and we are** 

### 5 **going to turn this data over to you. We all** 

### 6 **did that. We turned in our best efficiency at** 

### 7 **full diameter for each class, for the classes** 

### 8 **and scope that we have provided. That is** 

### 9 **already done.** 

### 10 **MR. RIVEST: So, you know how the** 

### 11 **word "class" keeps coming back.** 

### 12 **MR. HUBER: Okay.** 

### 13 **MR. RIVEST: And I just don't know** 

### 14 **whether we are all using "class" the same way.** 

### 15 **When you all submitted your data,** 

### 16 **this was cost and efficiency data or --** 

### 17 **MR. HUBER: No, no, no. We do have** 

### 18 **cost data.** 

### 19 **MR. RIVEST: Okay. So, you sort of** 

### 20 **wrote down the spec of the pump you were all** 

### 21 **costing?** 

### 22 **MR. HUBER: Right. We took it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 283**  **1 all --**  

### 2 **MR. RIVEST: That is a** 

### 3 **representative unit?** 

### 4 **MR. HUBER: Yes. We took it off** 

### 5 **the HI nomenclature. We said you submit this** 

### 6 **pump.** 

### 7 **MR. RIVEST: Right.** 

### 8 **MR. HUBER: You submit it at full** 

### 9 **diameter. You submit it --** 

### 10 **MR. RIVEST: By flow rate?** 

### 11 **MR. HUBER: No.** 

### 12 **MR. RIVEST: No?** 

### 13 **MR. HUBER: No. It is not a flow** 

### 14 **rate, is it? There is a flow rate in there,** 

### 15 **but your BEP may not be at the same point.** 

### 16 **MR. RIVEST: Right.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, come on.** 

### 18 **MS. WILLIAMS: Can I jump in here?** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 20 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, I think we are** 

### 21 **talking about a couple of different things.** 

### 22 **So, when we are looking -- I am actually going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 284**  **1 to go a couple more slides, I think.**  

### 2 **What Mike was saying was that we** 

### 3 **are looking to determine the cost differential** 

### 4 **of increasing efficiency for pumps that are** 

### 5 **very similar. And for that, that is what we** 

### 6 **traditionally do; we use those rep units for.** 

### 7 **It would not take away from I think** 

### 8 **what you are talking about, where you are** 

### 9 **collecting pumps of the same type, whatever** 

### 10 **size they are, and comparing them to the** 

### 11 **minimum efficiency equation to get the MEI.** 

### 12 **That would still happen. We are just looking** 

### 13 **for ways to isolate determining the cost of** 

### 14 **that increased efficiency. Traditionally, DOE** 

### 15 **does this by choosing representative units** 

### 16 **that can, then, scale those costs to a** 

### 17 **different unit.** 

### 18 **MR. RIVEST: So, we can scale the** 

### 19 **cost, but we don't have to scale the cost. We** 

### 20 **can just agree that the standard level -- so,** 

### 21 **once you have represented the population with** 

### 22 **the dots and, then, you have run your lines**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 285**  **1 and your equations that fit those dots, we**  

### 2 **need to determine which line we are going to** 

### 3 **take as a standard.** 

### 4 **So, we just have to agree what** 

### 5 **pump, you know, what segments, what cross** 

### 6 **section of those lines of the analysis for the** 

### 7 **cost-effectiveness is going to be based. Once** 

### 8 **it is determined it is 40 percent, the 40** 

### 9 **percent line is what sets the standard to** 

### 10 **everything. So, we don't have to scale. You** 

### 11 **know, we don't have to look at any other** 

### 12 **pumps.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Mike.** 

### 14 **Now to Ken.** 

### 15 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano.** 

### 16 **So, going back to your original** 

### 17 **point in this string, which was that we have** 

### 18 **to get the breakdown of classifications** 

### 19 **balanced correctly, so that you don't penalize** 

### 20 **one style of pump versus -- we completely** 

### 21 **agree with that. That is absolutely dead-on** 

### 22 **right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 286**  **1 What that actually shakes out as,**  

### 2 **you know, and there is an equation for** 

### 3 **different styles of pumps and how fine do you** 

### 4 **break it down or not and the tradeoffs with** 

### 5 **that, you are absolutely right.** 

### 6 **I don't know if we know, sitting** 

### 7 **here today, for the purposes of this other** 

### 8 **discussion, which is understanding the** 

### 9 **incremental cost to go from 10 to 20 or 20 to** 

### 10 **40, or whatever, whether or not inside of a** 

### 11 **particular class, however you end up defining** 

### 12 **that, picking one representative point and** 

### 13 **comparing the 10 to the 40 of that same** 

### 14 **representative unit can be extrapolated to all** 

### 15 **extremes and be accurate. I don't think we** 

### 16 **know that.** 

### 17 **That is something we would probably** 

### 18 **have to go back and take a look at and, to** 

### 19 **your point say, is one close enough or do you** 

### 20 **want to do one at the low end, one at the high** 

### 21 **end, because of how costs change with size, or** 

### 22 **do you need to look at a couple? I don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 287**  **1 think we know the answer to that that I am**  

### 2 **aware of.** 

### 3 **Greg, do you have --** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, use the** 

### 5 **microphone, if you are going to respond.** 

### 6 **MR. CASE: I am just wondering if I** 

### 7 **should respond.** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Albert? And then,** 

### 10 **to Greg, and back to Mike.** 

### 11 **MR. HUBER: What we did to try to** 

### 12 **come up with some idea of what it would cost** 

### 13 **to redesign, we did a study and it was** 

### 14 **independently surveyed, which we intend to** 

### 15 **turn over to the DOE. We said this is the** 

### 16 **cost of taking a pump -- I think we said, we** 

### 17 **told our people we wanted to go to 40. So,** 

### 18 **this is what it is going to take. The MEI, we** 

### 19 **all knew what we were talking about for each** 

### 20 **class.** 

### 21 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Just remember** 

### 22 **there are two costs, the cost of redesign and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 288**  **1 the cost to the consumer.**  

### 2 **MR. HUBER: That is true.** 

### 3 **MR. NAPOLITANO: And I believe you** 

### 4 **were programming --** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Repeat that into the** 

### 6 **record, Albert. Or, Ken, go ahead, Ken.** 

### 7 **MR. NAPOLITANO: I just want to** 

### 8 **make sure we are clarifying, and both are** 

### 9 **probably relevant, but they are different.** 

### 10 **All right. There are two costs to consider in** 

### 11 **how much does it cost to go from 10 to 40.** 

### 12 **One is the cost to the industry, and the other** 

### 13 **is the cost to the consumer. We have captured** 

### 14 **one, and not necessarily the other.** 

### 15 **MR. HUBER: That is correct.** 

### 16 **MR. RIVEST: They are both separate** 

### 17 **considerations.** 

### 18 **MR. HUBER: Right. And we did it** 

### 19 **by horsepower. So, that gave us size.** 

### 20 **MR. RIVEST: You did it by** 

### 21 **horsepower. So, we will see how that maps to** 

### 22 **-- they are probably pretty close, right?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 289**  **1 MR. HUBER: It is probably pretty**  

### 2 **close.** 

### 3 **MR. RIVEST: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. HUBER: And, you know, we** 

### 5 **intend to turn that over. The larger you got** 

### 6 **in the pump, the more it costs.** 

### 7 **MR. RIVEST: And Steve started this** 

### 8 **conversation by saying, "Well, be careful you** 

### 9 **don't aggregate too much," because transformer** 

### 10 **standards were set in a very similar fashion.** 

### 11 **So, our scale there goes from like 25 to 1500,** 

### 12 **and we split it into three segments. There** 

### 13 **were some thought that maybe we should have** 

### 14 **split into more segments. Because as you do** 

### 15 **the economics on the 25, the 500, and the** 

### 16 **1500, to determine if the whole equation is** 

### 17 **cost-justified, we weigh the results of the** 

### 18 **economic analysis.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, do you want to** 

### 20 **add on?** 

### 21 **MR. CASE: No.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: No, not at this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 290**  **1 point?**  

### 2 **Did we cover it?** 

### 3 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I just want to** 

### 4 **say, yes, in the interest of moving on, as I** 

### 5 **said, what I have been talking about is DOE's** 

### 6 **traditional approach, and we are certainly** 

### 7 **open to methods of getting cost increase data** 

### 8 **from the industry. And I think we will work** 

### 9 **with you moving forward on that.** 

### 10 **So, to move on, baseline models, I** 

### 11 **really want to talk about efficiency levels,** 

### 12 **as Mike started. So, what we want to start** 

### 13 **with is the baseline level, what is basically** 

### 14 **the lowest efficiency, the most typical pump** 

### 15 **on the market right now?** 

### 16 **In other rulemakings, it is often** 

### 17 **the current federal standard, but there isn't** 

### 18 **one for pumps. So, DOE is considering the** 

### 19 **appropriate method to develop those levels.** 

### 20 **This is a 2D slice that you have** 

### 21 **seen before. The red line on the bottom is** 

### 22 **the bottom of market. So, if you take the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 291**  **1 whole 3D space and put a surface to the very**  

### 2 **lowest pumps across the 3D space, you get that** 

### 3 **line. What you see happens is that in certain** 

### 4 **areas there are no pumps that are actually at** 

### 5 **that baseline level.** 

### 6 **So, to solve that problem, there** 

### 7 **are a couple of things we have thought of that** 

### 8 **we can do, one of which is to make a** 

### 9 **discontinuous surface, if that works. But the** 

### 10 **other one is to raise the level of the bottom** 

### 11 **of the market to create a baseline that** 

### 12 **represents least-efficient, most-typical pumps** 

### 13 **across the flow and specific speed. So, you** 

### 14 **can see the example in this slice where that** 

### 15 **line goes through many more pumps.** 

### 16 **So, DOE is still exploring options** 

### 17 **for how it would set baseline levels in this** 

### 18 **case. And again, it is designed to represent** 

### 19 **the same level across all the flows and** 

### 20 **specific speeds.** 

### 21 **So, similarly, DOE looks at** 

### 22 **efficiency levels from the baseline through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 292**  **1 the max-tech level. Max-tech does not**  

### 2 **necessarily have to be available on the market** 

### 3 **right now. It could be involved in a working** 

### 4 **prototype. Sometimes it is the market** 

### 5 **maximum. So, you may have pumps on the market** 

### 6 **right now that are basically the highest it** 

### 7 **can go.** 

### 8 **And then, DOE looks at the design** 

### 9 **options and costs associated with getting to** 

### 10 **each of the levels it selects from baseline to** 

### 11 **max-tech, which is similar to the EU's** 

### 12 **different MEI levels.** 

### 13 **So, DOE is also looking at how to** 

### 14 **define max-tech, in this case, based on market** 

### 15 **maximums. And the same problem with the** 

### 16 **baseline level; if you set it based on the** 

### 17 **whole 3D space, you end up with a lot of** 

### 18 **spaces that don't have pumps there. And this** 

### 19 **could be problematic. If you choose where** 

### 20 **there is a pump, it may not represent the same** 

### 21 **level of cost across these spaces where there** 

### 22 **aren't any pumps.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 293**  **1 So, again, the options are**  

### 2 **discontinuous functions or lowering the market** 

### 3 **max level to something that crosses a lot more** 

### 4 **pumps across the space, which is essentially** 

### 5 **treating some of these other ones as outliers.** 

### 6 **The DOE seeks comment on how the** 

### 7 **baseline level and the efficiency level,** 

### 8 **including the max-tech level, are set. That** 

### 9 **is all three of these issues right here.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 11 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Would you go back** 

### 12 **to the previous slide I think you showed? I** 

### 13 **guess I am misreading this. It is looking** 

### 14 **like the max-tech is lower than the top of the** 

### 15 **market?** 

### 16 **MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. That is** 

### 17 **mislabeled.** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I just** 

### 19 **wanted to double --** 

### 20 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, the blue line is** 

### 21 **top of market. Oh, the red line should be a** 

### 22 **revised market maximum level, basically.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 294**  **1 There is not really a good name for it, right?**  

### 2 **So, the blue is if you set top of market based** 

### 3 **on all the pumps in the 3D surface and you end** 

### 4 **up with these holes, and the red line is** 

### 5 **basically just one example of an attempt to** 

### 6 **get a market maximum that represents all the** 

### 7 **flow and specific speed spaces. So, the** 

### 8 **terminology is not really correct and is** 

### 9 **confusing.** 

### 10 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, Steve** 

### 11 **Rosenstock.** 

### 12 **Yes, again, it is a matter of** 

### 13 **earlier on there was like four different** 

### 14 **versions of efficiency that were shown, you** 

### 15 **know, that was being used throughout the** 

### 16 **world.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, these** 

### 18 **particular figures are based on pump** 

### 19 **efficiency.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Sorry. So, we** 

### 22 **could do something similar with overall**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 295**  **1 efficiency or other metrics. We just**  

### 2 **basically have these as examples for a** 

### 3 **methodology that could be followed.** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 5 **Yes, so this is just one example of** 

### 6 **one possible approach --** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: That's right.** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- at this** 

### 9 **specific test condition at Best Efficient** 

### 10 **point?** 

### 11 **MS. WILLIAMS: Correct.** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?** 

### 14 **MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.** 

### 15 **One difference I want to try to** 

### 16 **make clear here is the MEI looks to drop the** 

### 17 **bottom 10 percent. It is not shooting for a** 

### 18 **certain efficiency level, which we seem to be** 

### 19 **going for here. It is I want to eliminate a** 

### 20 **certain portion of the market that is the** 

### 21 **lowest-performing part of that market.** 

### 22 **And so, you would be able to always**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 296**  **1 find a spot with that 10 percent. You**  

### 2 **wouldn't have to worry about discontinuities** 

### 3 **or any of that.** 

### 4 **MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. CASE: So, it differs from your** 

### 6 **process, I understand, but it does simplify** 

### 7 **trying to find 10 percent, 15 percent, 20** 

### 8 **percent, whatever we set that level at.** 

### 9 **MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, DOE's** 

### 10 **process, basically, deals with efficiency** 

### 11 **levels. So, you could create an efficiency** 

### 12 **level that was the equivalent of cutting off a** 

### 13 **certain percentage of market, and that is** 

### 14 **something that could be done. But, yes, the** 

### 15 **terminology and the process here is different** 

### 16 **in that respect.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, moving on, the** 

### 18 **next part of the market assessment is the** 

### 19 **technology assessment in which DOE identifies** 

### 20 **technology options that can be used to improve** 

### 21 **efficiency. And this list is a preliminary** 

### 22 **list of things that could happen. We**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 297**  **1 understand that the primary thing that happens**  

### 2 **is just hydraulic redesign of the pumps to** 

### 3 **meet the new standard. And we have identified** 

### 4 **a few other things that have more detail in** 

### 5 **the framework, including smoothing surface** 

### 6 **finish, reducing clearances, reducing** 

### 7 **friction.** 

### 8 **And then, if we do go to the** 

### 9 **expanded approach of pumps inclusive of motor** 

### 10 **and VSD, we will also potentially look at** 

### 11 **technology options, which are adding a VSD,** 

### 12 **improving the VSD efficiency, and, also,** 

### 13 **reducing standby power for those VSDs. And we** 

### 14 **are also interested in other suggestions that** 

### 15 **manufacturers are using to improve the** 

### 16 **efficiency of their pumps.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Greg?** 

### 18 **MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI.** 

### 19 **In 3-14, we agree with the factors** 

### 20 **for the pump that you have come up with as** 

### 21 **ways to improve the pump. In the framework** 

### 22 **document, we believe some of the percentages**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 298**  **1 of increase would be going from the lowest**  

### 2 **pump on the market to max-tech level, to be** 

### 3 **able to hit those types of increases. A** 

### 4 **surface finish of 18 percent increase in** 

### 5 **efficiency, only a very, very small segment** 

### 6 **market could possibly benefit like that.** 

### 7 **MS. WILLIAMS: To be fair, the** 

### 8 **framework document does state that it is** 

### 9 **typically 1 to 3 percent.** 

### 10 **MR. CASE: Yes, yes. So, we just** 

### 11 **wanted to go on record as HI saying some of** 

### 12 **the efficiencies that we saw, the 10 to 12** 

### 13 **percent increase in efficiency, that would be** 

### 14 **taking us from the bottom of the market to the** 

### 15 **top of the market in most cases.** 

### 16 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, we would be** 

### 17 **interested in specific information related to** 

### 18 **that and the efficiency increases that the** 

### 19 **manufacturers believe actually result from** 

### 20 **these technology options.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Neal?** 

### 22 **MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 299**  **1 The other concern, just in terms of**  

### 2 **some of these technologies -- and I am going** 

### 3 **to mention, in particular, the surface finish** 

### 4 **and running clearances -- those are designed** 

### 5 **as new. And one of the concerns I have is** 

### 6 **actually persistence in the marketplace for** 

### 7 **those.** 

### 8 **You know, having an ultra-smooth** 

### 9 **finish is something that may be great for** 

### 10 **performance right out of the box. It is** 

### 11 **unlikely that performance would persist in the** 

### 12 **marketplace.** 

### 13 **So, I just think we need to be** 

### 14 **careful in terms of looking at, if you will,** 

### 15 **from my racing days when I raced cars,** 

### 16 **blueprinting an engine and taking an engine** 

### 17 **that we are actually going to try to run for** 

### 18 **100,000. So, let's not push the envelope on** 

### 19 **stuff that is not going to have long-term** 

### 20 **market persistence.** 

### 21 **The other thing -- and this came up** 

### 22 **at lunch, and I just wanted to reiterate this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 300**  **1 -- when we use the term "VFD" here or "VSD," I**  

### 2 **think we want to be clear that, when we are** 

### 3 **talking about it from the advocates'** 

### 4 **perspective and from HI's perspective, we are** 

### 5 **not taking about just putting an adjustable** 

### 6 **speed motor device there. We are talking** 

### 7 **about putting an adjustable-speed motor device** 

### 8 **control and feedback circuitry together. It** 

### 9 **is not just the VSD; there is more to that.** 

### 10 **And I think I am concerned that we** 

### 11 **kind of go into the shorthand, but I think we** 

### 12 **need to be cognizant that the adjustable-speed** 

### 13 **drive or variable-speed drive without controls** 

### 14 **doesn't really produce the results we are** 

### 15 **looking for.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza?** 

### 17 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, that has to do** 

### 18 **with the definition of what we decide that VSD** 

### 19 **is for these applications. So, you could sort** 

### 20 **of define it.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: And I think that is** 

### 22 **useful because I think that is the first time**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 301**  **1 we have all been really clear. We have kind**  

### 2 **of danced around the edges about those** 

### 3 **elements being one thing. So, thank you for** 

### 4 **that.** 

### 5 **MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, and I think it** 

### 6 **is an issue, you know, as long as we define** 

### 7 **this clearly -- that was not clearly-defined** 

### 8 **in the framework document. I think in the HI** 

### 9 **it was clear. When we clearly defined it, we** 

### 10 **defined it as the four components, which was** 

### 11 **the pump, the drive, the motor, and the** 

### 12 **feedback control system. So, I think in our** 

### 13 **sense there are the four elements.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, follow on. Go** 

### 15 **ahead.** 

### 16 **MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest.** 

### 17 **You know, in any case, when we look** 

### 18 **at the consumer end-costs, we are looking at** 

### 19 **installed cost. So, we would have those** 

### 20 **components plus their installation. So, it** 

### 21 **would be a total. You know, we would capture** 

### 22 **all the costs.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 302**  **1 MR. ELLIOTT: I understand. This**  

### 2 **is a question for transparency and clarity in** 

### 3 **terminology because I don't want this to come** 

### 4 **and be misconstrued in the market by others** 

### 5 **who we are dealing with or, basically, have it** 

### 6 **come around and bite us in the back side.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Right.** 

### 8 **MR. ELLIOTT: So, I am just looking** 

### 9 **for transparency.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary first. And** 

### 11 **then, back to Steve.** 

### 12 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,** 

### 13 **California IOUs.** 

### 14 **This isn't just an issue with** 

### 15 **respect to capturing the cost. It is an issue** 

### 16 **with respect to fully understanding the** 

### 17 **savings. So, we are going to regulate an** 

### 18 **appliance, we will better understand the** 

### 19 **savings if we are looking at an appliance, a** 

### 20 **pump, that is sold in a fully-integrated** 

### 21 **package, which would include the pump, motor,** 

### 22 **control, and control algorithm.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 303**  **1 And I would like to make one quick**  

### 2 **comments on 3-14, the opportunities for** 

### 3 **improvement. Neal mentioned persistence in** 

### 4 **the market of these opportunities. I think** 

### 5 **there may be an opportunity associated with** 

### 6 **improving maintainability or persistence of** 

### 7 **savings in the market itself.** 

### 8 **For example, that might be easily** 

### 9 **accessible taps for measuring suction and** 

### 10 **discharge pressure. It might be perhaps** 

### 11 **selling some pumps with gauges, so operators** 

### 12 **could determine whether or not they are** 

### 13 **operating at their Best Efficiency Point or** 

### 14 **even within their operating range.** 

### 15 **So, as you look at options, I think** 

### 16 **you should look at a group of options that may** 

### 17 **improve maintenance and persistence of savings** 

### 18 **over the lifetime rather than just as the pump** 

### 19 **package is sold.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 21 **MS. WILLIAMS: I just want to** 

### 22 **follow up on that. Any technology options**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 304**  **1 that you want to propose to be considered,**  

### 2 **just keep in mind that they do have to be** 

### 3 **captured in a metric. And as was mentioned** 

### 4 **before, if it is strictly a design requirement** 

### 5 **-- it is just something to keep in mind where** 

### 6 **you are thinking of the options; we do have to** 

### 7 **be able to capture them in a metric.** 

### 8 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, that is** 

### 9 **an excellent point. Looking to the lighting** 

### 10 **industry, it utilizes mean lamp lumens, which** 

### 11 **is metric of performance over life. I don't** 

### 12 **know what may or may not be appropriate for** 

### 13 **pumps, but, surely, there are some savings** 

### 14 **associated with measures that would improve** 

### 15 **performance over life that could and should be** 

### 16 **looked at.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve, thanks** 

### 18 **for being patient.** 

### 19 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, sure.** 

### 20 **Again, Steve Rosenstock, EEI.** 

### 21 **And again, please forgive me I** 

### 22 **didn't read that section of the framework**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 305**  **1 document. But, again, I just have to come**  

### 2 **back to the fact I know variable-speed drives** 

### 3 **are very common and they have come down in** 

### 4 **price quite significantly. But I would hope** 

### 5 **that, if there are other technologies that go** 

### 6 **in that parentheses that says "pumps plus** 

### 7 **motors plus," if there is a stage control that** 

### 8 **would work better or two-stage or three-stage** 

### 9 **control, that may or may not be in the** 

### 10 **classical definition a variable-speed drive or** 

### 11 **some other technology out there that could** 

### 12 **also provide savings for these products, I** 

### 13 **would not want them to be excluded from the** 

### 14 **technology options or the analysis.** 

### 15 **Because manufacturers and other** 

### 16 **companies are innovating all the time, and I** 

### 17 **just kind of get a sense that it is like, "Oh,** 

### 18 **well, it is a variable-speed drive and the** 

### 19 **feedback control are the option with this** 

### 20 **equipment, period," and I don't feel that that** 

### 21 **is the case. There might be others out there.** 

### 22 **Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 306**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  

### 2 **Louis?** 

### 3 **MR. STARR: I think maybe some of** 

### 4 **the points that Steve is bringing up, some** 

### 5 **examples of that would be like an Aquastat,** 

### 6 **which measures return water temperature. So,** 

### 7 **it turns the pump on full speed whenever you** 

### 8 **need hot water. And then, another example** 

### 9 **would be like a submersible pump. Like you** 

### 10 **have an air conditioner system and you have** 

### 11 **water that comes off the coil and you pump it** 

### 12 **up and dump it into the thing. Neither of** 

### 13 **those applications would have VFD used in, but** 

### 14 **an Aquastat, which is very cheap, or** 

### 15 **relatively cheap, and a float switch, which is** 

### 16 **also relatively cheap, would be some things** 

### 17 **that would be kind of technologies that would** 

### 18 **kind of meet what he is talking about.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 20 **Ken?** 

### 21 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano** 

### 22 **with HI.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 307**  **1 I just wanted to reiterate that**  

### 2 **what the HI is proposing in the extended** 

### 3 **product approach is two categories. One is a** 

### 4 **pump motor variable-speed device, variable** 

### 5 **speed drive, with feedback, which isn't** 

### 6 **necessarily a VFD, variable-frequency drive,** 

### 7 **which is a very specific electronic device to** 

### 8 **vary the speed of a motor, but not the only** 

### 9 **way to vary speed. So, we are not limiting it** 

### 10 **to that.** 

### 11 **And then, the second category of** 

### 12 **extended product which is a pump and a motor** 

### 13 **with some control mechanism that doesn't** 

### 14 **include variable speed, which does exactly** 

### 15 **what was just mentioned, like turning a pump** 

### 16 **on and off based on load demand. So, that is** 

### 17 **how we have proposed to address that.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 19 **Joanna?** 

### 20 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer.** 

### 21 **Ken, is HI considering a test** 

### 22 **procedure for extended products that would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 308**  **1 capture the effectiveness of the feedback**  

### 2 **control?** 

### 3 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, the simple** 

### 4 **answer is yes. The effectiveness of the** 

### 5 **feedback control itself or of the extended** 

### 6 **product including the feedback control?** 

### 7 **MS. MAUER: The extended product** 

### 8 **including the feedback control.** 

### 9 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. So, in** 

### 10 **simple terms, it is here is a load profile of** 

### 11 **a variable load which you define, and then,** 

### 12 **you test products against that. It is** 

### 13 **essentially that wire-to-water that says how** 

### 14 **much energy do I have to put in to get out** 

### 15 **what amount of output.** 

### 16 **MS. MAUER: So, it could capture,** 

### 17 **if you an identical, two identical pumps,** 

### 18 **motors, VFDs, say, but with different control** 

### 19 **systems, that one might be better than the** 

### 20 **other, would the test procedure capture that** 

### 21 **difference?** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 309**  **1 MR. CASE: The semi-analytical**  

### 2 **model might be better than test procedure** 

### 3 **there. We would develop a set of load** 

### 4 **profiles, kind of like miles per gallon for a** 

### 5 **car. You know you are not really going to get** 

### 6 **the miles per gallon that the sticker says,** 

### 7 **but we would test against a certain criteria,** 

### 8 **load profile, maybe for possibly more than** 

### 9 **those. Those pumps could be rated, those** 

### 10 **pumps, motors, possibly drives, possibly** 

### 11 **on/off controls could be rated against those,** 

### 12 **and we would get an output number. It would** 

### 13 **allow you to compare one unit to the other.** 

### 14 **So, not a test, but more of a semi** 

### 15 **analytical model that we could provide the** 

### 16 **data into that would give you that output and** 

### 17 **help you with that decision matrix.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?** 

### 19 **MR. STARR: I think, essentially,** 

### 20 **what he is saying is just a load profile.** 

### 21 **Even for those two examples I provided, you** 

### 22 **could create a load profile for that. Then,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 310**  **1 with that load profile, you could capture the**  

### 2 **savings based on it. So, basically, it’s just** 

### 3 **identifying the load profiles for certain** 

### 4 **conditions.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. HANDZEL: But you have to have** 

### 7 **the load data for the motor, the drive, and** 

### 8 **the pump.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: And that was Mark** 

### 10 **last.** 

### 11 **MR. HANDZEL: Sorry.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, Tom Eckman?** 

### 13 **That's okay.** 

### 14 **MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman.** 

### 15 **I am really glad DOE has a top** 

### 16 **notch analytical team to deal with this** 

### 17 **problem. I will just state that for the** 

### 18 **record.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **Because, in addition to the load** 

### 21 **profile, to do the economics right, we need to** 

### 22 **know the share or the fraction of the units**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 311**  **1 out there today that already have this system**  

### 2 **engaged. So, how many variable-speed drives** 

### 3 **are in place on pumps today for various** 

### 4 **horsepowers, flow rates, and what have you?** 

### 5 **Because the base-case condition** 

### 6 **would be in some cases a variable-speed drive** 

### 7 **and in some cases no variable-speed drive.** 

### 8 **So, good luck with that.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 10 **Sarah, do you want in here?** 

### 11 **MS. WIDDER: Sure. Just really** 

### 12 **quick, I think Tom is exactly right. We are** 

### 13 **going to get into that and try to talk about** 

### 14 **our analysis approach in the next few slides.** 

### 15 **So, that is a good prelude to it.** 

### 16 **And it will be a difficult problem.** 

### 17 **So, hopefully, everyone can help us with that.** 

### 18 **The one thing I had to follow up on** 

### 19 **the semi-analytical model you were describing,** 

### 20 **which seems to be this 14.6 DOE test** 

### 21 **procedure, or is that separate? The semi** 

### 22 **analytical model is different than the 14.6**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 312**  **1 DOE? Okay. Excellent. That is very helpful.**  

### 2 **I was concerned that we were talking about** 

### 3 **load profiles for different applications in** 

### 4 **the test procedure, which would be very** 

### 5 **difficult to achieve.** 

### 6 **Okay. Thanks.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are moving** 

### 8 **on.** 

### 9 **And shortly, for those of you who** 

### 10 **are interested, we are going to be taking a** 

### 11 **break.** 

### 12 **Go ahead.** 

### 13 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, just skipping to** 

### 14 **the next analysis, which is directly, it is** 

### 15 **the screening analysis in which DOE basically** 

### 16 **looks at all the technology options that have** 

### 17 **been identified and evaluates them against the** 

### 18 **following four criteria, which have to do with** 

### 19 **technological feasibility; practicability to** 

### 20 **manufacture, sell, and service; impacts on** 

### 21 **utility or availability to customers; and** 

### 22 **impacts on health and safety.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 313**  **1 So, DOE seeks any comment in the**  

### 2 **framework document related to the technologies** 

### 3 **listed or unlisted and which screening** 

### 4 **criteria might apply to them.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Neal** 

### 6 **MR. ELLIOTT: Just in response to** 

### 7 **4-1, I wanted to reiterate the concern about** 

### 8 **the persistence issue and the feasibility of** 

### 9 **these in actual performance in the marketplace** 

### 10 **over an extended period.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: And let's take a** 

### 12 **break, and we are not going to go far. Let's** 

### 13 **see if we can do this in 10 minutes. We are** 

### 14 **behind schedule, and we will continue doing** 

### 15 **this until we are finished. Okay?** 

### 16 **(Laughter.)** 

### 17 **So, let's run to the restroom and** 

### 18 **get back here in 10 minutes, which by the wall** 

### 19 **clock there means 3:15. So, we will see back** 

### 20 **here shortly.** 

### 21 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 22 **went off the record at 3:04 p.m. and went back**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 314**  **1 on the record at 3:14 p.m.)**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, we are handing** 

### 3 **out a document. Many of you in the back don't** 

### 4 **have this yet.** 

### 5 **This is a document concerning** 

### 6 **commercial and industrial pumps, a rulemaking** 

### 7 **action issued by the Department of Energy.** 

### 8 **Although it is not intended or expected,** 

### 9 **should any discrepancy occur between the** 

### 10 **document posted here and the document posted** 

### 11 **in The Federal Register, The Federal Register** 

### 12 **publication controls. This document is being** 

### 13 **made available through the internet solely as** 

### 14 **a means to facilitate public access to this** 

### 15 **document.** 

### 16 **So, you want to hand it out back** 

### 17 **there.** 

### 18 **And now, we are going to resume and** 

### 19 **we are going to hear from Dan Weintraub,** 

### 20 **engineering analysis and manufacturing impact** 

### 21 **analysis.** 

### 22 **MR. WEINTRAUB: Hello, everyone.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 315**  **1 As he said, my name is Dan**  

### 2 **Weintraub. I am with Navigant Consulting, and** 

### 3 **I will be taking us through an overview of our** 

### 4 **engineering analysis and then a quick overview** 

### 5 **of the preliminary manufacturer impact** 

### 6 **analysis also.** 

### 7 **So, what we are going to go through** 

### 8 **here, Mike Rivest actually hit on a little bit** 

### 9 **as we were discussing the relationships** 

### 10 **between cost and efficiency.** 

### 11 **So, the purpose here of the** 

### 12 **analysis overall is to develop a cost** 

### 13 **efficiency curve. That represents the** 

### 14 **relationship between manufacturer price and** 

### 15 **efficiency. This would be for each product** 

### 16 **class or equipment class. We would like to** 

### 17 **develop as many curves as we can. Of course,** 

### 18 **we have the limitations that we were** 

### 19 **discussing earlier.** 

### 20 **Now the reasons we develop these** 

### 21 **curves, these are inputs into the downstream** 

### 22 **analyses, which ultimately help us with our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 316**  **1 decision-making. So, some of these rulemaking**  

### 2 **analyses that these feed into would be the** 

### 3 **life-cycle cost and payback period analysis,** 

### 4 **manufacturer impact analysis, and the** 

### 5 **employment impact analysis. Again, these are** 

### 6 **all downstream.** 

### 7 **So, next we will look at the** 

### 8 **approaches we take to get us to this cost** 

### 9 **efficiency relationship. We have multiple** 

### 10 **options that we generally go through. We are** 

### 11 **looking at this generically right now, and we** 

### 12 **will drill down as we get into these analyses,** 

### 13 **as the process goes on.** 

### 14 **But, in general, we can use a** 

### 15 **combination of three approaches. Those would** 

### 16 **be the design option approach, the efficiency** 

### 17 **level approach, and the reverse-engineering** 

### 18 **approach.** 

### 19 **Looking at them specifically, the** 

### 20 **design option approach is more of a bottoms-up** 

### 21 **approach. In this case, we look at energy** 

### 22 **efficient design options that are currently on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 317**  **1 the market or potentially on the market, maybe**  

### 2 **in prototype phases, and we look at the cost** 

### 3 **to adopt these individual options or** 

### 4 **combinations of these options, and look at the** 

### 5 **resulting efficiency to build incremental cost** 

### 6 **curves.** 

### 7 **On the other hand, if we look at** 

### 8 **the efficiency-level approach, that is a more** 

### 9 **of a top-down approach. So, this would be** 

### 10 **looking at setting a target efficiency level** 

### 11 **that we would like to hit and then looks at** 

### 12 **the technologies and costs that are needed to** 

### 13 **reach those target levels.** 

### 14 **So, if, for example, we were** 

### 15 **looking to cut out the bottom 10 percent of** 

### 16 **the market, we would look at the efficiency** 

### 17 **level needed to do that and the cost** 

### 18 **associated with doing so. And that can be** 

### 19 **done for any level.** 

### 20 **Finally, the last option that we** 

### 21 **generally use is the reverse-engineering** 

### 22 **approach. This is more of an empirical**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 318**  **1 approach. Here we evaluate the cost of**  

### 2 **efficiency in products that are already out on** 

### 3 **the market, out there already, and to do so,** 

### 4 **we purchase these products. These would be** 

### 5 **part of the representative units that we were** 

### 6 **discussing earlier. We tear them down. We** 

### 7 **run them through a cost model of our own,** 

### 8 **which we will discuss a little bit more later,** 

### 9 **and understand the cost-efficiency curve for** 

### 10 **what is out there right now.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: As the comment box** 

### 12 **on this page reflects, the Department might** 

### 13 **consider using any one or a combination of** 

### 14 **these approaches. We have had some comment on** 

### 15 **this already. Additional comments before we** 

### 16 **move on?** 

### 17 **Yes? Your name, please?** 

### 18 **MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry,** 

### 19 **Colfax Fluid Handling.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is that on** 

### 21 **(referring to the microphone)? You are not** 

### 22 **on, Dave.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319**  **1 MR. McKINSTRY: I am on now.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good.** 

### 3 **MR. McKINSTRY: Okay. I guess my** 

### 4 **question is probably a little heresy in this** 

### 5 **group. But I don't see this fitting very well** 

### 6 **into the MEI process, if the MEI process is** 

### 7 **adopted.** 

### 8 **The MEI process really** 

### 9 **fundamentally says we have a tool to eliminate** 

### 10 **a percentage of the lowest efficiency pumps in** 

### 11 **the marketplace. And as long as you keep** 

### 12 **doing that in some form, .1, .2, .3, the** 

### 13 **marketplace takes care of all of this work in** 

### 14 **order to bring more efficient products to the** 

### 15 **marketplace, so that the market adjusts for** 

### 16 **the MEI.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest?** 

### 18 **MR. RIVEST: Heresy, you say, huh?** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **There are so many jokes we could** 

### 21 **make here.** 

### 22 **So, the Department's job, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 320**  **1 analysts on this project are looking for the**  

### 2 **level that is cost-justified. And so, the** 

### 3 **process of going from 10 to 30 to 40 to 50,** 

### 4 **you know, intuitively, you guys probably know** 

### 5 **what the right number is because you have the** 

### 6 **experience. You know how much it is to make** 

### 7 **these products. You know what you are capable** 

### 8 **of achieving at a reasonable cost.** 

### 9 **But there comes a moment where the** 

### 10 **costs are no longer reasonable. And so, what** 

### 11 **we are trying to do is find out how much it** 

### 12 **costs to eliminate 10 percent or 20 or 30 and** 

### 13 **stop where the benefit to the consumer is** 

### 14 **weighed, is less than the incremental cost to** 

### 15 **the consumer of that pump.** 

### 16 **So, we need to understand your** 

### 17 **costs of manufacturing these pumps. What is** 

### 18 **it you have to do to replace this 10 percent** 

### 19 **of the market with more efficient products?** 

### 20 **Is it redesign costs? Are you having to go to** 

### 21 **different materials? New tooling? Different** 

### 22 **tolerances? We need to understand that and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 321**  **1 monetize it.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dave?** 

### 3 **MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry,** 

### 4 **Colfax Fluid Handling.** 

### 5 **Well, you know, we do that every** 

### 6 **day. That is what we do to stay in business.** 

### 7 **But the beauty of the proposition that we have** 

### 8 **made is that we have one process to bring up** 

### 9 **the efficiency overall of the marketplace by** 

### 10 **using the MEI method, and we have a second** 

### 11 **process that saves some real energy, which is** 

### 12 **the extended product. So, the combination of** 

### 13 **those two will bring massive improvements to** 

### 14 **reduction of energy consumption without any of** 

### 15 **this work in the technical analysis of costs** 

### 16 **of a manufacturer.** 

### 17 **MR. RIVEST: The method that the** 

### 18 **Department uses is similar to what you are** 

### 19 **describing, which would be to set a level that** 

### 20 **eliminates the least-efficient product from** 

### 21 **the market and creates a product class that is** 

### 22 **more efficient and label it, and have people**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 322**  **1 adopt it.**  

### 2 **But we still need a way of knowing** 

### 3 **that the correct number is 10 percent, not 20** 

### 4 **percent. So, we need to document it.** 

### 5 **MR. McKINSTRY: Then, here is my** 

### 6 **challenge to you: find that way and make the** 

### 7 **MEI work rather than go through your historic** 

### 8 **process, which we think is wasteful -- I** 

### 9 **shouldn't speak "we" because that is not an** 

### 10 **institute position -- which I think is** 

### 11 **wasteful.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 13 **Ken?** 

### 14 **MR. NAPOLITANO: So, maybe I could** 

### 15 **add a little clarity here because I think we** 

### 16 **are conflating several things here. So, first** 

### 17 **of all, HI wants to reiterate the fact that we** 

### 18 **strongly recommend that we harmonize as much** 

### 19 **as possible with the EU. And the EU used an** 

### 20 **MEI approach, and they did so after studying** 

### 21 **for many, many years. There are a lot of** 

### 22 **technical reasons why that approach is better**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 323**  **1 than trying to set an efficiency number for a**  

### 2 **particular size pump and a particular class,** 

### 3 **because it adjusts for a lot of variables.** 

### 4 **And so, I think one of the things** 

### 5 **that is coming out here is that, when Alison** 

### 6 **was last up, we were looking at the maps, and** 

### 7 **it maybe kind of missed us at the time that** 

### 8 **that was talking about an efficiency number as** 

### 9 **opposed to this concept of the MEI index.** 

### 10 **We just want to reiterate that we** 

### 11 **believe that the MEI index is the proper** 

### 12 **methodology, the most effective methodology** 

### 13 **for calculating how you are going to exclude** 

### 14 **the low-performing, separate from what level** 

### 15 **you end up choosing. So, that is one point,** 

### 16 **is using the MEI index.** 

### 17 **And then, there is this separate** 

### 18 **point about the cost/benefit relationship** 

### 19 **between the various levels. Although I don't** 

### 20 **know that we know the answer on how to** 

### 21 **calculate that, although we are going to be** 

### 22 **providing data, from the standpoint of what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 324**  **1 the redesign costs are to hit different**  

### 2 **levels, we have that. So, that is one** 

### 3 **component of it. It may not be all the** 

### 4 **components of it because it is just the** 

### 5 **redesign aspect.** 

### 6 **But, clearly, we understand the** 

### 7 **need to try to figure out what is the logical** 

### 8 **place to draw that line.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?** 

### 10 **MR. FERNSTROM: I don't think these** 

### 11 **two things are mutually-exclusive. I think** 

### 12 **MEI is a good way to look at efficiency. What** 

### 13 **efficiency improvement we hope to get relative** 

### 14 **to the standards that are set is an economic** 

### 15 **question. You know, obviously, the higher and** 

### 16 **higher we want to go, at some point there is** 

### 17 **going to be some cost.** 

### 18 **So, the advocates are going to be** 

### 19 **asking for the very best efficiency we can get** 

### 20 **that is cost-effective for consumers, and that** 

### 21 **is an economic question that needs to be** 

### 22 **answered. I would highly recommend that DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 325**  **1 use mature market cost for these improvements**  

### 2 **rather than the cost that one might find** 

### 3 **through analyzing a design approach, for** 

### 4 **example, using today's costs, because we have** 

### 5 **consistently found that the mature market cost** 

### 6 **of improving efficiency is less than it may** 

### 7 **have been estimated during proceedings like** 

### 8 **this that preceded those rules going into** 

### 9 **effect.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, do you have a** 

### 11 **final comment?** 

### 12 **MR. RIVEST: No final comment,** 

### 13 **except to say that, you know, we look forward** 

### 14 **to working with HI to capture what those costs** 

### 15 **are, to understand that if you are going to** 

### 16 **submit the data, that would be fantastic. It** 

### 17 **is better, though, if we understand how they** 

### 18 **were constructed, so that we can document and** 

### 19 **-- I don't like to use the word -- but** 

### 20 **validate, if you will, that we agree with** 

### 21 **those incremental costs.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, back to Dan for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 326**  **1 a brief description of these methodologies.**  

### 2 **MR. WEINTRAUB: Sure. So, moving** 

### 3 **forward, yes, if we continue to look at our** 

### 4 **historical methodologies that we would use to** 

### 5 **develop these cost-efficiency curves,** 

### 6 **basically, at a high level we define our** 

### 7 **baseline models, which we have discussed in** 

### 8 **depth earlier what these baseline models are.** 

### 9 **We go through tear-down and** 

### 10 **testing, data collection and interviews, and** 

### 11 **that takes us to developing our cost** 

### 12 **efficiency relationship.** 

### 13 **Now, looking at the steps in** 

### 14 **detail, we have gone through baseline. Alison** 

### 15 **spoke to that earlier. The next two** 

### 16 **steps, tear-down and testing, and data** 

### 17 **collection and interviews, are generally steps** 

### 18 **that can be done in parallel, depending on the** 

### 19 **situation. And then, tear-down and testing,** 

### 20 **here is where we would conduct tests to verify** 

### 21 **performance and efficiency ratings. This has** 

### 22 **been touched on earlier also. And again, this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 327**  **1 is important since the test procedure is not**  

### 2 **yet in place. You are currently using HI** 

### 3 **standards, and hopefully, we can see how those** 

### 4 **line up with whatever we arrive at.** 

### 5 **And then, following that, we** 

### 6 **perform reverse-engineering on these products** 

### 7 **that we have tested. And we mentioned on the** 

### 8 **previous slide -- and we will mention it again** 

### 9 **in more detail -- what we mean by reverse** 

### 10 **engineering to help us understand the costs a** 

### 11 **little bit better.** 

### 12 **Now, when it comes to data** 

### 13 **collection and interviews, here we look to** 

### 14 **collect all available public and private data** 

### 15 **on efficient pump designs. And that means** 

### 16 **looking at publicly-available data, but also** 

### 17 **having conversations with you, manufacturers,** 

### 18 **usually under NDA, to try to understand as** 

### 19 **best we can, so everything you know we can** 

### 20 **know at the same time. We are looking to gain** 

### 21 **as much information as possible.** 

### 22 **Along those lines, once we have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 328**  **1 gathered as much information as we can, that**  

### 2 **allows us to, then, go forward and develop** 

### 3 **these cost-efficiency relationships. So, we** 

### 4 **have our inputs, and that brings us down to** 

### 5 **our cost-efficiency relationships.** 

### 6 **So, at this time, we will have some** 

### 7 **comments we are looking for. So, the DOE** 

### 8 **seeks input on the methods and approaches used** 

### 9 **by manufacturers to improve the efficiency of** 

### 10 **pumps and, in particular, how frequently** 

### 11 **hydraulic redesign would be the only method** 

### 12 **employed. I know there was a little** 

### 13 **discussion of that earlier.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comment on that?** 

### 15 **Ken?** 

### 16 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. So, this is** 

### 17 **an important point. I think our position is** 

### 18 **that hydraulic redesign is going to be the** 

### 19 **predominant method because things like surface** 

### 20 **finish, tightening clearances, you know,** 

### 21 **tightening clearances, in particular, those** 

### 22 **are easy to do. And if we could get a little**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 329**  **1 more efficiency out of a pump by tightening**  

### 2 **the clearances, we have already done it.** 

### 3 **Forget about Neal's point, which is** 

### 4 **also valid, that if you tighten them, they are** 

### 5 **going to open. The more you tighten them, the** 

### 6 **faster they are going to open and you will** 

### 7 **lose that efficiency anyway. Because there is** 

### 8 **a process of natural selection in the** 

### 9 **marketplace which says, especially in today's** 

### 10 **marketplace, if you have an inefficient pump,** 

### 11 **you are going to have a hard time selling it.** 

### 12 **So, if you can tweak the clearances** 

### 13 **or do any of those types of things to eke it** 

### 14 **up, you have already gone down that route.** 

### 15 **Surface finish, material changes in most cases** 

### 16 **are so costly for the benefit you get from** 

### 17 **them that the economically-viable variance of** 

### 18 **that has also already been exercised. So, you** 

### 19 **are back to hydraulic redesign.** 

### 20 **And hydraulic redesign involves a** 

### 21 **lot of upfront cost: engineering time,** 

### 22 **tooling, new patterns, testing, qualification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 330**  **1 process, and so forth. And so, it is going to**  

### 2 **be difficult for a third party, for example,** 

### 3 **to do a reverse-engineering to determine the** 

### 4 **cost of inefficient-versus-efficient because** 

### 5 **the number of pieces, the pounds per piece,** 

### 6 **the number of machining, it is going to be** 

### 7 **exactly the same.** 

### 8 **The difference is that you have** 

### 9 **spent millions of dollars to redesign, and a** 

### 10 **manufacturer is going to need to amortize** 

### 11 **those costs over some reasonable life, which** 

### 12 **is what gets passed on to the consumer. But** 

### 13 **the physical product won't necessarily** 

### 14 **evaluate, from a pure cost to manufacture** 

### 15 **standpoint, all that -- now there are some** 

### 16 **exceptions, but, overwhelmingly, it is the** 

### 17 **massive cost of the redesign amortized over** 

### 18 **some period of time to recoup that.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 20 **Steve Rosenstock? No? Okay.** 

### 21 **Do you want to hit 5-8?** 

### 22 **MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. So, the other item we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 331**  **1 are looking for comment on here, Item 5-8, for**  

### 2 **each equipment class, DOE welcomes comments on** 

### 3 **methods and approaches that DOE intends to** 

### 4 **employ to determine potential efficiency** 

### 5 **improvements for pumps, detailed information** 

### 6 **on the pump's performance and the incremental** 

### 7 **manufacturing costs, e.g., material cost,** 

### 8 **labor, overhead, building conversion, capital** 

### 9 **expenditures for tooling or equipment,** 

### 10 **conversion costs associated with efficient** 

### 11 **design, R&D expenses, marketing expenses.** 

### 12 **That would all be useful. So, again, just** 

### 13 **talk about this in general. I mean, we are** 

### 14 **aware there is a lot on the front-end.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 16 **MR. FERNSTROM: I would like to go** 

### 17 **back to the point that we are already making** 

### 18 **the most efficient pumps that can be made.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **I think what the industry means by** 

### 21 **that is we are already making the most** 

### 22 **efficient pumps that competitive pressures**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 332**  **1 bring upon us by virtue of what consumers are**  

### 2 **willing to buy. And there are probably,** 

### 3 **certainly, some segments of the market where,** 

### 4 **rather than good performance, least-cost is** 

### 5 **the buying priority of consumers.** 

### 6 **And I submit that in that case,** 

### 7 **competitive pressure probably does not bring** 

### 8 **us to the most-efficient pumps that can be** 

### 9 **made. They bring us to the best pumps that** 

### 10 **can be made while meeting the price** 

### 11 **expectations of customers.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken wishes to** 

### 13 **respond.** 

### 14 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano,** 

### 15 **HI.** 

### 16 **No, I didn't mean to suggest in any** 

### 17 **case that we are making the most-efficient** 

### 18 **pumps that can be made. I would say, though,** 

### 19 **that over the years, especially in the recent** 

### 20 **couple of decades, manufacturers have invested** 

### 21 **substantially in improving their efficiencies.** 

### 22 **If you were to take the baseline 20 or 30**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 333**  **1 years ago and compare it to today, we have**  

### 2 **already dropped out -- who knows? -- the** 

### 3 **bottom 25, for lots of reasons, whether it is** 

### 4 **ASHRAE or AHRI, you know, building codes, but** 

### 5 **just the general LEED green building** 

### 6 **certifications, the general efficiency** 

### 7 **awareness of consumers in the marketplace,** 

### 8 **right?** 

### 9 **How many of us bought fluorescent** 

### 10 **lightbulbs 20 years ago, and they were 10** 

### 11 **times the cost of a regular lightbulb, even** 

### 12 **though you could do the math in your head?** 

### 13 **So, the marketplace has changed, and so the** 

### 14 **line has moved.** 

### 15 **But we wouldn't be here at the** 

### 16 **table in a cooperation fashion to say, yes, we** 

### 17 **can raise the efficiencies more and here is** 

### 18 **the methodology to do that, and start to take** 

### 19 **out whatever today's baseline is against the** 

### 20 **bottom 10, the bottom 20, and, by the way,** 

### 21 **couple it with an extended-product approach,** 

### 22 **which really gets at a big chunk of energy.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 334**  **1 So, we agree.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Gary.** 

### 3 **MR. FERNSTROM: So, I don't think** 

### 4 **regulations are really directed at** 

### 5 **manufacturers. I mean, obviously,** 

### 6 **manufacturers are the ones that are required** 

### 7 **to comply. But I think the regulations are to** 

### 8 **assist those customers that maybe don't want** 

### 9 **to buy what is best.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 11 **MR. STARR: I have a general** 

### 12 **question in terms of, it seems like the way** 

### 13 **the European market, they adopted the MEI of** 

### 14 **10 and 40 percent. What it sounds like they** 

### 15 **didn't do is really -- I mean, because it** 

### 16 **seems like the natural thing is to split it** 

### 17 **out per class and decide an MEI based upon** 

### 18 **that class.** 

### 19 **I am kind of wondering, in the** 

### 20 **European market, if they didn't do that kind** 

### 21 **of cost analysis, it seems like it would have** 

### 22 **some pretty bad impacts on some of your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 335**  **1 pumplines. I mean, they may have been trying**  

### 2 **to achieve it across the market, but it seems** 

### 3 **like it could have some negatives, just as a** 

### 4 **pump manufacturer. You might have to improve,** 

### 5 **spend a lot of money improving certain** 

### 6 **pumplines; other ones, it was 10 percent was** 

### 7 **no problem.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ken?** 

### 9 **MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. So, back to** 

### 10 **the point about breaking it down into its** 

### 11 **categories, the EU did do that. So, the** 

### 12 **equation for a particular class of pump is not** 

### 13 **the same for another, for that reason.** 

### 14 **So, they segregated it that way.** 

### 15 **It gets to the C-factor and the equation that** 

### 16 **is used. And then, inside of that class, they** 

### 17 **said 10 or 20, but against a different** 

### 18 **equation. So, one was not disproportionately** 

### 19 **disadvantaged to another.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are going** 

### 21 **to press on with the content on slide 102.** 

### 22 **MR. WEINTRAUB: All right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 336**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Mike Rivest**  

### 2 **wishes to wedge-in here.** 

### 3 **MR. RIVEST: Just out of curiosity,** 

### 4 **did that analysis take into account costs?** 

### 5 **How was that performed?** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Dave?** 

### 7 **MR. McKINSTRY: Well, EU did this.** 

### 8 **EU did this over a 10-year period, and there** 

### 9 **are some really substantial studies that have** 

### 10 **been made, published, and I think Alison may** 

### 11 **have them and have looked at them; I am not** 

### 12 **sure.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Did you hear him?** 

### 14 **Do you have the studies that the EU produced** 

### 15 **over a 10-year period?** 

### 16 **MS. WILLIAMS: So, we have looked** 

### 17 **at the studies, and they are fairly extensive** 

### 18 **in terms of the efficiency analysis, but there** 

### 19 **is not really cost analysis in there. As far** 

### 20 **as I understand, the only cost analysis was** 

### 21 **that brief calculation of the manufacturer** 

### 22 **cost at each level that was highly top-down.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 337**  **1 It wasn’t like built up and looked at every**  

### 2 **level separately and comprehensively. So, I** 

### 3 **think we are talking about a different level** 

### 4 **of cost-effectiveness analysis in this** 

### 5 **rulemaking.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza?** 

### 7 **MR. LLENZA: I just wanted to ask,** 

### 8 **also, what about impacts to the consumer?** 

### 9 **There wasn't anything on that particular** 

### 10 **level, either?** 

### 11 **MS. WILLIAMS: They do do some** 

### 12 **analyses, but, in general, the EU analyses are** 

### 13 **much more simple than what DOE is required to** 

### 14 **do by EPCA.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Dave.** 

### 16 **MR. McKINSTRY: No, I would concur** 

### 17 **because that is my recollection of those** 

### 18 **reports. They were done -- there were cost** 

### 19 **studies from the manufacturing standpoint done** 

### 20 **and provided by Europump to the EU in the** 

### 21 **process. I guess those are probably** 

### 22 **available, but we don't have them.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 338**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza?**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, I just want to** 

### 3 **bring back to the point again, when we go back** 

### 4 **to what EPCA requires the Department to do,** 

### 5 **and the seven factors, and our analysis is a** 

### 6 **little bit more complicated. I think the EU's** 

### 7 **system of adoption for standards is a lot more** 

### 8 **simplistic in many ways.** 

### 9 **We have to go through a dragged-out** 

### 10 **process of going to the stakeholders and the** 

### 11 **manufacturers and the advocates and the U.S.** 

### 12 **public in general. We have to provide an** 

### 13 **extensive cost analysis of the impacts in all** 

### 14 **the different areas in order to move on with a** 

### 15 **standard.** 

### 16 **So, I think that is part of what we** 

### 17 **are seeing, that maybe while the EU** 

### 18 **methodology might be more simplistic, they** 

### 19 **didn't have to go through as many hurdles as** 

### 20 **we do to get to our final levels.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 339**  **1 EEI.**  

### 2 **So, again, what I am hearing, the** 

### 3 **EU process, they didn't have to have public** 

### 4 **meetings or let the end-users know that they** 

### 5 **were doing this?** 

### 6 **MR. McKINSTRY: Oh, yes, the EU** 

### 7 **process, believe me, had public meetings.** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.** 

### 9 **MR. McKINSTRY: They had** 

### 10 **discussions, multiple discussions with** 

### 11 **advocates and with adversaries and the** 

### 12 **government.** 

### 13 **(Laughter.)** 

### 14 **And they weren't so lucky as to** 

### 15 **have the environmental NGOs as a portion of** 

### 16 **their pre-teamwork. So, they were very heated** 

### 17 **activities, and there was a lot of discussion,** 

### 18 **and that is what surfaced, is what you see.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Charles?** 

### 20 **MR. LLENZA: What kind of timeframe** 

### 21 **for adoption did they use?** 

### 22 **MR. McKINSTRY: Well, I think they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 340**  **1 call that process that they have been in 12**  

### 2 **years. They this year adopted the first one,** 

### 3 **13. They are going to adopt .4 in 2015, and** 

### 4 **then, they are going to start back in on the** 

### 5 **process with additional activities in 2015** 

### 6 **with additional products.** 

### 7 **So, they view it, I think, as a** 

### 8 **continuum, as you do. In some cases, though,** 

### 9 **I hear you mention six years. But the process** 

### 10 **is well-vetted. It has been a lot of** 

### 11 **discussion.** 

### 12 **I don't suggest you don't have to** 

### 13 **do these things. If the law says you have to** 

### 14 **do these things, you do them. I am suggesting** 

### 15 **that, as you have encouraged us to try new,** 

### 16 **innovative ideas, we would encourage you to** 

### 17 **comply with the law with new, innovative** 

### 18 **concepts, too.** 

### 19 **(Laughter.)** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Back to Dan.** 

### 21 **Go, Dan.** 

### 22 **MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 341**  **1 resetting ourselves back where we were before,**  

### 2 **talking a bit about our tear-down and test** 

### 3 **methodology, this is our generic methodology.** 

### 4 **We would definitely have to tailor this toward** 

### 5 **this industry, as we have discussed. You are** 

### 6 **not going to expect to see a lot of difference** 

### 7 **in costs, manufacturing costs, of each pump,** 

### 8 **but it would all come in the front-end. But** 

### 9 **we would still, nonetheless, if we were to** 

### 10 **take this approach, I will take you through** 

### 11 **what it would look like.** 

### 12 **And that would be selection of** 

### 13 **units. So, we have discussed that earlier.** 

### 14 **That would bring us to physical tear-down.** 

### 15 **And physical tear-down means taking these** 

### 16 **products down to their core components, as** 

### 17 **small as you can go, and creating a bill of** 

### 18 **materials and using our experience to break** 

### 19 **these out into either fabricated parts, parts** 

### 20 **that we would believe that were fabricated in** 

### 21 **house by the manufacturers or purchased parts** 

### 22 **from outside sources.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 342**  **1 For fabricated parts, we use our**  

### 2 **models and our experience to come up with raw** 

### 3 **material plus labor plus manufacturing** 

### 4 **overhead. A whole variety of costs run into** 

### 5 **that to understand the cost of that part.** 

### 6 **And on the other side, we use the** 

### 7 **best-available data for the cost of these** 

### 8 **purchased parts, what is out there in the** 

### 9 **marketplace.** 

### 10 **Once you have these parts, you have** 

### 11 **your fabricated and your purchased, we then** 

### 12 **model the assembly process that you guys would** 

### 13 **go through in your own factories and how much** 

### 14 **that would cost to put it together.** 

### 15 **And when you bring that all** 

### 16 **together, you have a manufacturer production** 

### 17 **cost, which would be our estimate, which is** 

### 18 **one of the reasons we come up with this; we** 

### 19 **discuss these things with you, and we want to** 

### 20 **come up with the best estimates possible to** 

### 21 **understand these things.** 

### 22 **And that is key as we are looking**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 343**  **1 at changing, if we are looking at coming up**  

### 2 **with theoretical changes to designs, we want** 

### 3 **to understand what the baseline was and how** 

### 4 **costs will vary when we come up with these** 

### 5 **changes.** 

### 6 **So, next we will take a closer look** 

### 7 **at manufacturer's selling price and what is** 

### 8 **and is not included in this, in our analyses.** 

### 9 **So, manufacturer selling price, MSP, would** 

### 10 **include manufacturer production costs, which** 

### 11 **we just discussed, and that is materials,** 

### 12 **direct labor, operating cost, maintenance,** 

### 13 **appreciation, taxes; all costs such as these.** 

### 14 **We then, estimate a markup, and that markup** 

### 15 **pretty much represents contribution margin.** 

### 16 **It is all the costs not associated with** 

### 17 **production. And when you multiply those two,** 

### 18 **it comes to a manufacturer selling price that** 

### 19 **we use within our models. And again, we** 

### 20 **intend to have these discussions with the** 

### 21 **manufacturers to try to validate our initial** 

### 22 **assumptions.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 344**  **1 What is not included in**  

### 2 **manufacturer selling price is conversion** 

### 3 **costs. These are some of the things that were** 

### 4 **just discussed earlier, and that would be your** 

### 5 **front-end costs.** 

### 6 **So, conversion costs typically come** 

### 7 **in two, well, you break them out into two** 

### 8 **sides. That would be product conversion cost** 

### 9 **and capital conversion cost. So, product** 

### 10 **conversion cost would be those engineering** 

### 11 **redesigns, the testing costs and labor; and** 

### 12 **like we said, hydraulic redesigns would fall** 

### 13 **under those types of costs.** 

### 14 **On the other hand, capital** 

### 15 **conversion costs; these are the costs of** 

### 16 **capital investments needed to meet these** 

### 17 **standards. And that would be new machines,** 

### 18 **new tooling, basically, anything that would** 

### 19 **fall under plant property and equipment that** 

### 20 **the industry would need to invest in in order** 

### 21 **to meet new standards.** 

### 22 **Now, although they are not included**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 345**  **1 in the MSP and in the engineering analysis,**  

### 2 **typically, they are included in the** 

### 3 **manufacturing impact analysis. And that is** 

### 4 **where these costs come into play, and we look** 

### 5 **at the impact on the manufacturers as a whole.** 

### 6 **Now there are some precedents where** 

### 7 **we can look at bringing these costs in and** 

### 8 **amortizing them, if we truly believe there are** 

### 9 **going to be price increases due to them. And** 

### 10 **those are things that can be worked out down** 

### 11 **the line.** 

### 12 **So, at this time, we have another** 

### 13 **comment box and Item 5-9. DOE welcomes** 

### 14 **comment on the markup approach proposed for** 

### 15 **developing estimates of manufacturer's selling** 

### 16 **prices. Do you want to start there?** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. Yes, Gary?** 

### 18 **MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,** 

### 19 **California Investor Owned Utilities.** 

### 20 **I would like to reiterate my point** 

### 21 **about the importance of mature market cost.** 

### 22 **And I would like to relate an example.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 346**  **1 About five-six years ago, Pentair**  

### 2 **introduced an extended-product category pool** 

### 3 **pump. This product was the combination of a** 

### 4 **pump head, motor, variable-speed drive, and** 

### 5 **integral control. It wholesaled for about** 

### 6 **$1800. Five years later, it is about $1,000** 

### 7 **on the wholesale market. So, in a five-year** 

### 8 **period, that is a drop of $800, which is** 

### 9 **really significant. It is almost half the** 

### 10 **cost.** 

### 11 **And I would encourage DOE, as they** 

### 12 **do these analyses, to look not just at the** 

### 13 **current cost of the transition to a higher** 

### 14 **efficiency, but to consider what might happen** 

### 15 **to those costs in the years following.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 17 **Dave?** 

### 18 **MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry,** 

### 19 **Colfax Fluid Handling.** 

### 20 **This is the required response from** 

### 21 **the Hydraulic Institute, that we can't talk** 

### 22 **about 5-9, 5-10, 5-11 because of our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 347**  **1 requirements under antitrust. I am sure that**  

### 2 **the DOE can talk individually to companies,** 

### 3 **but we can't talk in a room with members of** 

### 4 **other companies. So, we decline any comment** 

### 5 **on those.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 7 **Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 9 **Yes, just a quick thought. In** 

### 10 **terms of the tear-down and test methodology,** 

### 11 **depending on the regulatory regime that is** 

### 12 **chosen, at this point, then, you would have to** 

### 13 **really look at tearing down, I will say,** 

### 14 **standalone pumps, pumps sold alone, as well as** 

### 15 **the pumps sold with motors. So, you are** 

### 16 **tearing down the pump and the motor, and then,** 

### 17 **you might have to tear down a pump, motor, and** 

### 18 **VSD combination to really get the full range** 

### 19 **of costs.** 

### 20 **MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. So, that is** 

### 21 **correct. But the way that we would be looking** 

### 22 **at it, as I mentioned, purchased part versus**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 348**  **1 fabricated parts, and generally, these motors**  

### 2 **are going to be purchased, brought in. So, we** 

### 3 **understand the cost of the purchased motor.** 

### 4 **We understand the cost of a VSD system, if it** 

### 5 **is not made in-house, which doesn't add as** 

### 6 **much complexity. If, on the other hand, they** 

### 7 **are manufacturing things in-house, that does** 

### 8 **lead to a whole lot more complexity.** 

### 9 **But we would consider whatever the** 

### 10 **regime leads us to. We would consider these** 

### 11 **products and tearing them down.** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have** 

### 14 **additional comments on 5-10 or 5-11? Because** 

### 15 **we are about to move on.** 

### 16 **(No response.)** 

### 17 **MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. I will** 

### 18 **move forward.** 

### 19 **Finally, to wrap up the engineering** 

### 20 **analysis, we will look at outside regulatory** 

### 21 **changes, and this also will tie in a little** 

### 22 **bit to cumulative regulatory burden, which we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 349**  **1 will discuss a little later.**  

### 2 **But, just to touch upon this, the** 

### 3 **DOE will consider the effects of both DOE and** 

### 4 **non-DOE regulations that may impact** 

### 5 **manufacturers of the covered products. This** 

### 6 **is done with the understanding that other** 

### 7 **regulatory changes or other DOE changes may** 

### 8 **impact the efficiency of the product, how far** 

### 9 **you can go with efficiency based on regulation** 

### 10 **of other products, along with financial** 

### 11 **impacts that go with it.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 14 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 15 **As someone alluded to earlier,** 

### 16 **there have been a lot of significant** 

### 17 **improvements in ASHRAE 90.1, which covers** 

### 18 **commercial buildings in the United States.** 

### 19 **Some of them -- again, I didn't bring it with** 

### 20 **me -- but there are some requirements that do** 

### 21 **affect pumps in commercial buildings, whether** 

### 22 **they are new buildings or total renovations.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 350**  **1 And for 2013, there is always a**  

### 2 **whole slew of new sections or revised sections** 

### 3 **to ASHRAE. The 2013 version of ASHRAE will be** 

### 4 **published probably in October/November.** 

### 5 **And again, in terms of the** 

### 6 **analytics, the Pacific Northwest National Lab** 

### 7 **does the analysis and the progress reports for** 

### 8 **ASHRAE 90.1. So, in terms of any new language** 

### 9 **that has been approved into ASHRAE, you might,** 

### 10 **if you get a chance to talk to them about** 

### 11 **anything that affects pumping energy, I would** 

### 12 **strongly suggest that you -- or take a look at** 

### 13 **some of the historical analysis that has quite** 

### 14 **an impact on building energy use in the U.S.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?** 

### 16 **MR. HANDZEL: Steve, they have been** 

### 17 **publishing some preliminary copies of that** 

### 18 **90.1 2013, and there is no additional changes** 

### 19 **planned at this time to variable-speed** 

### 20 **requirements in that document that we are** 

### 21 **aware of.** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 351**  **1 Yes, they are not done yet.**  

### 2 **(Laughter.)** 

### 3 **MR. HANDZEL: Oh, I know that. I** 

### 4 **know that they have been progressively moving** 

### 5 **down horsepower. But, from what we** 

### 6 **understand, there is not a plan to drop the** 

### 7 **horsepower requirements on variable loads in** 

### 8 **this next document.** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's not over yet.** 

### 10 **(Laughter.)** 

### 11 **MR. HANDZEL: Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 13 **MR. STARR: Oh, no.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. WEINTRAUB: So, if there is no** 

### 16 **more discussion on the engineering analysis,** 

### 17 **that will conclude that section.** 

### 18 **And now, we are going to go through** 

### 19 **a very brief overview of the manufacturer** 

### 20 **impact analysis, and we will take you through** 

### 21 **that.** 

### 22 **So, here, the purpose of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 352**  **1 manufacturer impact analysis is threefold. It**  

### 2 **is to assess the impact of standards on the** 

### 3 **manufacturers. So, this is where we are** 

### 4 **looking at the financial effect on you, the** 

### 5 **manufacturers; identify and estimate impacts** 

### 6 **on manufacturer subgroups that may experience** 

### 7 **greater impact than the industry as a whole,** 

### 8 **and examine the impact of cumulative** 

### 9 **regulatory burden on the industry.** 

### 10 **And the way that we get, the** 

### 11 **methods that we use, are toanalyze industry** 

### 12 **cashflow and net present value through the use** 

### 13 **of our Government Regulatory Impact Model,** 

### 14 **which the acronym is GRIM, aptly named.** 

### 15 **(Laughter.)** 

### 16 **And then, we would go ahead and** 

### 17 **interview the manufacturers to refine our** 

### 18 **initial inputs that we have gathered. And we** 

### 19 **would also develop subgroup analyses and** 

### 20 **address qualitative issues as we go through** 

### 21 **it.** 

### 22 **So, next I will take you through an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 353**  **1 overview of the process. So, here we have**  

### 2 **broken it out into three phases. Phase 1** 

### 3 **occurs in the interim or preliminary analysis,** 

### 4 **which we will be entering soon. Phases 2 and** 

### 5 **3 occur during the NOPR phase. And I will** 

### 6 **walk you through it a bit. We are going to** 

### 7 **try to go through this quickly.** 

### 8 **So, it starts with developing an** 

### 9 **industry profile. This is where we identify** 

### 10 **the industry structures; we evaluate market** 

### 11 **characteristics; we develop average financial** 

### 12 **parameters based on publicly-available** 

### 13 **information. This is where we start to get** 

### 14 **ourselves grounded in your industry, so that** 

### 15 **when we come to talk to you, we have a** 

### 16 **baseline to start discussing, a place to** 

### 17 **start.** 

### 18 **From there, we go through initial** 

### 19 **MIA interviews. And these will be in** 

### 20 **conjunction with engineering interviews. So,** 

### 21 **they will both be together. They usually work** 

### 22 **out well that way.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 354**  **1 And here, we will identify issues**  

### 2 **that are important to manufacturers, and we** 

### 3 **will also look to gain as much information as** 

### 4 **we can on a preliminary basis. And this will** 

### 5 **also feed into the preliminary engineering** 

### 6 **analysis that goes on. So, we will look to** 

### 7 **get as much information as we can in those** 

### 8 **early phases.** 

### 9 **At the start of Phase 2, we will** 

### 10 **tailor a generic GRIM model, and that is what** 

### 11 **we mean by developing a strawman GRIM. We** 

### 12 **will tailor that to the industry structure,** 

### 13 **now that we have spoken with manufacturers and** 

### 14 **we have a better understanding of the standing** 

### 15 **of the industry.** 

### 16 **At that point, we will develop an** 

### 17 **interview guide. This will be a written** 

### 18 **document. It will have all of the questions** 

### 19 **that we are looking to ask manufacturers, at** 

### 20 **that time, and those will be sent out ahead of** 

### 21 **time in front of our interviews. So that you** 

### 22 **have as much time as possible to prepare any**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 355**  **1 answers to questions you do and do not want to**  

### 2 **answer and, also, give you time to prepare any** 

### 3 **questions you have for us or additional** 

### 4 **concerns that have come up along the way.** 

### 5 **So, then, when we enter Phase 3,** 

### 6 **that is when we go into interviews and perform** 

### 7 **the analyses. So, at this point, we will meet** 

### 8 **with you, and it is generally conducted in our** 

### 9 **confidentiality agreements. We go through the** 

### 10 **interview guide. We discuss all these key** 

### 11 **issues. We look to see what information can** 

### 12 **be shared, what can't, to see how you feel** 

### 13 **about our assumptions we have made so far, and** 

### 14 **try to bring it all together and get all the** 

### 15 **additional input that we need to finally run** 

### 16 **our financial model, the GRIM.** 

### 17 **And that is the final stage. That** 

### 18 **is where we run our models and we estimate the** 

### 19 **impact to the industry, net present value, and** 

### 20 **domestic employment. And that is using that** 

### 21 **model.** 

### 22 **Then, along with these estimates,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 356**  **1 we will also assess the cumulative regulatory**  

### 2 **burden -- that is kind of done in parallel --** 

### 3 **and the effects on industry competition that** 

### 4 **this may have, and any disproportionate** 

### 5 **effects to subgroups, especially small** 

### 6 **businesses. We will always be looking at** 

### 7 **effects on small businesses. And, again,** 

### 8 **input from the industry on that front is** 

### 9 **always very, very useful.** 

### 10 **So, that is a quick overview of a** 

### 11 **much larger process. At this time, I will go** 

### 12 **into the comment section. So, Item 12-1, the** 

### 13 **DOE seeks comment on the subgroups of pump** 

### 14 **equipment manufacturers that should be** 

### 15 **considered in a manufacturing subgroup** 

### 16 **analysis.** 

### 17 **And I guess we will start with** 

### 18 **that, see if there is any input.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Subgroups that you** 

### 20 **would identify?** 

### 21 **MR. WEINTRAUB: Would there be any** 

### 22 **subgroups that may not be represented by the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 357**  **1 industry as a whole if we were to start**  

### 2 **aggregating data?** 

### 3 **(No response.)** 

### 4 **All right.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comment, yes.** 

### 6 **MR. WEINTRAUB: Move on to Item** 

### 7 **12-2. DOE seeks comments on what other** 

### 8 **existing regulations or pending regulations it** 

### 9 **should consider in its examination of** 

### 10 **cumulative regulatory burden.** 

### 11 **(No response.)** 

### 12 **All right. And finally, we have an** 

### 13 **additional item that has been added on. It is** 

### 14 **not in the framework. And that is 12-A. That** 

### 15 **would be DOE seeks comments on small** 

### 16 **businesses that could be impacted by potential** 

### 17 **energy conservation standards for commercial** 

### 18 **and industrial pumps as well as what these** 

### 19 **impacts might be.** 

### 20 **And at this point in the game, we** 

### 21 **are really just looking for names of small** 

### 22 **businesses in your industry that you know of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 358**  **1 that would fall under the Small Business**  

### 2 **Administration, a headstart for us because you** 

### 3 **guys are more familiar with your industry than** 

### 4 **we are.** 

### 5 **(No response.)** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. Well,** 

### 8 **at that point, I think we are done with this** 

### 9 **section.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: On to Sarah. Mark** 

### 11 **ups analysis, energy use analysis.** 

### 12 **MS. WIDDER: Okay. Good afternoon** 

### 13 **again, everyone.** 

### 14 **As the afternoon wears on, we seem** 

### 15 **to be getting less comments, which is good.** 

### 16 **(Laughter.)** 

### 17 **So, maybe we will all go home by** 

### 18 **5:00 or close to that.** 

### 19 **So, Dan just talked to you a little** 

### 20 **bit about the economic analysis we do to** 

### 21 **understand the impacts on manufacturers. We** 

### 22 **also spend a lot of time thinking about how**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 359**  **1 those costs and changes in manufacturer's**  

### 2 **selling price trickle down to the consumer.** 

### 3 **And this is all part of our big economic** 

### 4 **model, trying to cost-justify the standard** 

### 5 **level that we will end up setting for** 

### 6 **different product classes.** 

### 7 **So, I am going to talk to you right** 

### 8 **now a little bit about the mark-ups analysis** 

### 9 **we do to get to that final consumer price.** 

### 10 **And as has been noted previously, the market** 

### 11 **for pumps is very diverse and there could be a** 

### 12 **lot of ways a consumer gets a pump or a** 

### 13 **pumping system. And we are going to have to** 

### 14 **account for that in our mark-up analysis.** 

### 15 **The purpose of this analysis is to** 

### 16 **convert that manufacturer's selling price,** 

### 17 **sort of like a wholesale price, to what a** 

### 18 **consumer would pay. It could be through an** 

### 19 **OEM dealer, through a distributor; there's a** 

### 20 **number of different paths that that pump could** 

### 21 **reach the customer, and we will want to** 

### 22 **account for each of those mark-ups. And that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 360**  **1 is where we get into the method here. We are**  

### 2 **going to identify some representative** 

### 3 **distribution channels and apply representative** 

### 4 **mark-ups to each of those channels.** 

### 5 **So, here are some representative** 

### 6 **distribution channels that we have used. It** 

### 7 **is similar to the distribution channels we see** 

### 8 **in other commercial equipment, commercial and** 

### 9 **industrial equipment. The manufacturer** 

### 10 **selling directly to the customer, and that is** 

### 11 **a wholesale-type distribution channel. The** 

### 12 **manufacturer selling through an OEM or an OEM** 

### 13 **distributor, and we talked about that being** 

### 14 **perhaps common for a lot of pumps where the** 

### 15 **distributor is associated with the** 

### 16 **manufacturer; that is an OEM channel. The** 

### 17 **manufacturer selling through a wholesaler, who** 

### 18 **then sells to the customer. Or a manufacturer** 

### 19 **selling to the wholesaler who sells to a** 

### 20 **contractor who, then, sells to the customer.** 

### 21 **And each of those is going to have different** 

### 22 **economic implications for that end-customer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 361**  **1 who we are concerned with in this analysis.**  

### 2 **We try to look out at, I guess, the** 

### 3 **litany of publicly-available information to** 

### 4 **try to determine what each of these** 

### 5 **incremental mark-ups should be and that might** 

### 6 **vary by application or by market segment that** 

### 7 **the pump is being sold into.** 

### 8 **There is a lot of data available** 

### 9 **from the U.S. Census Bureau; also, RS Means** 

### 10 **data, and industry reports about where pumps** 

### 11 **are going and through which distribution** 

### 12 **channels, based on the application, and then,** 

### 13 **the incremental mark-ups that that** 

### 14 **distribution channel might incur.** 

### 15 **In our mark-ups analysis, we also** 

### 16 **want to account for efficiency improvements** 

### 17 **that might occur because of standards. So, we** 

### 18 **are going to look at, similar to our** 

### 19 **engineering analysis, we are going to look at** 

### 20 **a baseline mark-up that is currently applied** 

### 21 **right now and is applicable to all the** 

### 22 **equipment that is available in the market, and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 362**  **1 would have those incremental pieces that we**  

### 2 **saw on the previous slide.** 

### 3 **And then, we also want to look at** 

### 4 **the incremental mark-up and how the mark-up** 

### 5 **might change based on an efficiency** 

### 6 **improvement. So, some things might not change** 

### 7 **the mark-up.** 

### 8 **Transportation is a good example.** 

### 9 **So, we do want to account for shipping costs** 

### 10 **or transportation costs sometimes in our mark** 

### 11 **up. But if an efficiency improvement doesn't** 

### 12 **change the weight or the size of a piece of** 

### 13 **equipment, that doesn't always need to be part** 

### 14 **of the mark-up or part of the incremental** 

### 15 **mark-up.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 17 **MS. WIDDER: Go ahead.** 

### 18 **MR. STARR: Actually, on your** 

### 19 **previous slide, slide 111, you have** 

### 20 **manufacturer like a sales rep for a** 

### 21 **manufacturer. Which one of the channels is** 

### 22 **that, and is that different than like buying a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 363**  **1 pump from Granger, although I don't think you**  

### 2 **could probably buy it? It looks like your** 

### 3 **third one. Where is that captured? Which one** 

### 4 **of those market distribution channels would be** 

### 5 **manufacturer's sales rep be on that?** 

### 6 **MS. WIDDER: From a sales rep? It** 

### 7 **would probably depend on how that piece of** 

### 8 **equipment is marked up. I would think it** 

### 9 **would either be manufacturer -- I think it** 

### 10 **would be the OEM channel, is probably what** 

### 11 **would be most representative.** 

### 12 **Dave, if you want to answer, go** 

### 13 **ahead.** 

### 14 **MR. McKINSTRY: Yes, I would** 

### 15 **suggest No. 1. Most companies put the sales** 

### 16 **agent channels as a cost of sales, which is in** 

### 17 **their cost rollup. If you sell to a** 

### 18 **distributor, then you sell to a distributor at** 

### 19 **a price, and he marks it up. If you sell with** 

### 20 **agents, which was your example, then,** 

### 21 **generally, you set the price because it is** 

### 22 **your produce, and, then, you pay the agent a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 364**  **1 commission.**  

### 2 **MR. STARR: Okay. Well, I know** 

### 3 **from experience in buying stuff, when we did** 

### 4 **contracting work, it seems like, depending on** 

### 5 **which ones you were, you paid a different** 

### 6 **price for the piece of equipment. It wasn't** 

### 7 **pumps, but on valves and things. So, it seems** 

### 8 **like it can be that your price can be a lot** 

### 9 **different if you are really big than if you** 

### 10 **are small.** 

### 11 **MS. WIDDER: And that is part of** 

### 12 **what this analysis is trying to account for,** 

### 13 **the difference from a wholesale or large** 

### 14 **company price that you might get versus a** 

### 15 **small company price. Way back when the pump** 

### 16 **was manufactured, that same pump cost the same** 

### 17 **amount to manufacture, regardless of where it** 

### 18 **went and got sold.** 

### 19 **And maybe these distribution** 

### 20 **channels are totally the wrong ones and we** 

### 21 **should have different distribution channels.** 

### 22 **And if that is the case, please comment to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 365**  **1 that effect.**  

### 2 **But what we are trying to get at in** 

### 3 **this analysis is exactly what you mentioned.** 

### 4 **That pump ends up being a lot of different** 

### 5 **prices out there in the marketplace. And how** 

### 6 **can we analyze that and account for that in** 

### 7 **some representative way?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to the** 

### 9 **comment boxes. You can see the comment boxes** 

### 10 **listed there on 113. Information about** 

### 11 **distribution channels, comments and additional** 

### 12 **information on appropriate way to establish** 

### 13 **distribution channel percentages across** 

### 14 **equipment classes and applications, and then,** 

### 15 **finally, 6-3, sources of relevant data that** 

### 16 **could be used to characterize mark-ups.** 

### 17 **Mark, do you want to start?** 

### 18 **MR. HANDZEL: Well, much like the** 

### 19 **answer that veDave gave earlier, while we are** 

### 20 **all here in the room as members of the** 

### 21 **Hydraulic Institute, you know, we are all** 

### 22 **competitors.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 366**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Right.**  

### 2 **MR. HANDZEL: So, we all have** 

### 3 **different ways that we deal with this. So, we** 

### 4 **don't have an industry answer for you on this** 

### 5 **subject.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. HANDZEL: So, you will have to** 

### 8 **get it from us individually.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And that is** 

### 10 **what the interview process will accommodate.** 

### 11 **Other comments on this series of** 

### 12 **comment boxes?** 

### 13 **(No response.)** 

### 14 **Is there a different distribution** 

### 15 **channel than those that are arrayed here on** 

### 16 **the previous --** 

### 17 **MR. McKINSTRY: I thought that she** 

### 18 **captured them pretty well.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you,** 

### 20 **Dave.** 

### 21 **MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry,** 

### 22 **Colfax Fluid Handling.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 367**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: And Mark?**  

### 2 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel.** 

### 3 **I would agree that she captured** 

### 4 **them. There are many variations that could** 

### 5 **adapt those further, but you have the gist of** 

### 6 **it.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. HANDZEL: Okay?** 

### 9 **MS. WIDDER: Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: And then, the next** 

### 11 **comment box, 6-4 and 6-5?** 

### 12 **MS. WIDDER: So, these Requests for** 

### 13 **Comments are related to the baseline and** 

### 14 **incremental mark-ups, to the extent that that** 

### 15 **is applicable for pumps where some efficiency** 

### 16 **improvements might require an incremental** 

### 17 **mark-up, and that wouldn't be captured in the** 

### 18 **baseline mark-up. And comments on that** 

### 19 **approach?** 

### 20 **And then, DOE seeks comments** 

### 21 **specifically on the appropriate transportation** 

### 22 **and shipping costs to include, and then, how**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 368**  **1 to best allocate those costs as part of the**  

### 2 **baseline mark-up or incremental mark-up or a** 

### 3 **manufacturer's selling price.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: David?** 

### 5 **MR. McKINSTRY: David McKinstry,** 

### 6 **Colfax Pump.** 

### 7 **You are going to get tired of** 

### 8 **hearing this, but those, again, would be** 

### 9 **things we couldn't discuss among our** 

### 10 **competitors.** 

### 11 **MS. WIDDER: Right, which is** 

### 12 **certainly reasonable, and that is why we do** 

### 13 **the manufacturer interview process. That** 

### 14 **data, then, we can use in our analysis and** 

### 15 **have that information without having it in** 

### 16 **this public forum.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, we are moving on** 

### 18 **to the energy use.** 

### 19 **MS. WIDDER: Yes. Oh, go ahead.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Steve** 

### 21 **Rosenstock, EEI.** 

### 22 **And again, this gets back to the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 369**  **1 regulatory regime. It is kind of the same**  

### 2 **question. So, under the regime, where you are** 

### 3 **looking at the pumps and the motors and the** 

### 4 **VSDs, you are going to have to contact the** 

### 5 **manufacturers of each of the separate products** 

### 6 **in this case, right?** 

### 7 **MS. WIDDER: That is a very --** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Separate** 

### 9 **components. Excuse me.** 

### 10 **MS. WIDDER: That is a very good** 

### 11 **point. I think that is something that we will** 

### 12 **have to consider as we -- to be honest, we** 

### 13 **haven't gotten that far yet because we are** 

### 14 **still talking about scope and what the** 

### 15 **extended-product approach would look like just** 

### 16 **from a regulation-of-pumps standpoint.** 

### 17 **But when we look at market impacts** 

### 18 **and the manufacturer price, we would certainly** 

### 19 **need data about that. Whether or not that** 

### 20 **would be going to those individual** 

### 21 **manufacturers as well and doing a similar** 

### 22 **analysis, it probably would be more looking at**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 370**  **1 what available data there was in the public**  

### 2 **domain as well as the knowledge of the pump** 

### 3 **manufacturers who worked probably closely with** 

### 4 **those manufacturers to get something** 

### 5 **representative we can use in our analysis** 

### 6 **without having to redo the whole process. But** 

### 7 **that is certainly something we will have to** 

### 8 **consider, based on the scope we decide to move** 

### 9 **forward with.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 11 **MR. FERNSTROM: I was going to say,** 

### 12 **aren't we something of a common opinion here** 

### 13 **that these integrated products or extended** 

### 14 **products would be sold as a unit? So, you** 

### 15 **would probably want to start with the** 

### 16 **manufacturer because they would be buying and** 

### 17 **putting the drive on the product. And then,** 

### 18 **to double-check to see whether or not the** 

### 19 **information you are getting is reasonable, you** 

### 20 **might want to check drives in the market.** 

### 21 **MS. WIDDER: Certainly. That is a** 

### 22 **good suggestion.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 371**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Dave?**  

### 2 **MR. McKINSTRY: Yes, Dave** 

### 3 **McKinstry, Colfax Fluid Handling.** 

### 4 **Well, we really fundamentally agree** 

### 5 **with Gary. We think under the extended** 

### 6 **product, the manufacturer assumes the price** 

### 7 **responsibility for those.** 

### 8 **MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 10 **MS. WIDDER: Great.** 

### 11 **Okay. So, now we are going to talk** 

### 12 **a little bit about -- the one thing I will say** 

### 13 **about mark-ups before we move on is just to** 

### 14 **emphasize the cost analysis that DOE does. It** 

### 15 **is really based on cost to the consumer and** 

### 16 **cost-effectiveness to the consumer, while** 

### 17 **accounting for manufacturer impacts.** 

### 18 **And so, these mark-ups fall into** 

### 19 **the life-cycle cost analysis and, then, the** 

### 20 **payback period analysis. The reason I bring** 

### 21 **that up is the other component of the payback** 

### 22 **period analysis is this energy use**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 372**  **1 characterization that I am going to talk about**  

### 2 **now.** 

### 3 **So, we look at the price to the** 

### 4 **consumer through these different channels.** 

### 5 **And then, we do this energy use** 

### 6 **characterization to try to describe, based on** 

### 7 **all the different applications you could put** 

### 8 **pumps in, what is the energy use, what is the** 

### 9 **total current energy use and how will our** 

### 10 **standards impact that energy use or conserve** 

### 11 **energy.** 

### 12 **And then, those two pieces are** 

### 13 **really what get us to the life-cycle cost and** 

### 14 **payback period analysis, and let us flow down** 

### 15 **to set standard levels.** 

### 16 **So, I am going to talk at a high** 

### 17 **level about what that analysis looks like. As** 

### 18 **we all sort of are aware and Tom brought up,** 

### 19 **this is going to be a very complex question.** 

### 20 **I think what we are talking about** 

### 21 **in these few slides is similar to the semi** 

### 22 **analytical approach that HI has developed to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 373**  **1 look at part-load performance of pumps. So,**  

### 2 **hopefully, we are consistent on that, but it** 

### 3 **is certainly going to be very important that** 

### 4 **we develop representative curves for large** 

### 5 **market segments that pumps are sold into, to** 

### 6 **make sure that we get at least the baseline** 

### 7 **energy use characterized well.** 

### 8 **So, the purpose, again, is to** 

### 9 **identify how pumps are actually operated by** 

### 10 **users in representative market segments and,** 

### 11 **then, vary the efficiency of those pumps,** 

### 12 **based on those load profiles or those specific** 

### 13 **applications, to determine energy savings in** 

### 14 **the field.** 

### 15 **And we estimate that annual energy** 

### 16 **consumption, again, for baseline and higher** 

### 17 **efficiency designs. There are a lot of issues** 

### 18 **that we sort of talked about.** 

### 19 **One is that there is a lot of duty** 

### 20 **profiles that are expected to vary across the** 

### 21 **equipment classes. Also, as we know and as** 

### 22 **has been stated, pumps are often designed to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 374**  **1 exceed the flow rate capacity and head**  

### 2 **requirements as an engineering precaution.** 

### 3 **And to what extent is that done? And what is** 

### 4 **an average operating point for that pump? It** 

### 5 **may not be exactly the best operating point,** 

### 6 **or the design point even, all the time.** 

### 7 **And then, pumps are often sized** 

### 8 **based on peak load and knowing how often that** 

### 9 **pump actually even operates at peak load. We** 

### 10 **are going to have to have some data that helps** 

### 11 **us make estimates about that.** 

### 12 **So, here is the just fundamental** 

### 13 **framework for an approach that we have talked** 

### 14 **about. I think it sounds similar to what HI** 

### 15 **was proposing where we would define for each** 

### 16 **application - and some common applications** 

### 17 **that we might consider are wastewater and the** 

### 18 **construction industry, HVAC, cooling towers,** 

### 19 **food processing. We can talk about what the** 

### 20 **most representative market segments or** 

### 21 **applications are for particular pump classes.** 

### 22 **And then, for those applications, for those**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 375**  **1 pumps, define load profiles based on the flow**  

### 2 **rate and the head throughout the year.** 

### 3 **So, you can see there is a flow** 

### 4 **rate, a head, and operating hours at that** 

### 5 **point. And then, we would calculate that AEC** 

### 6 **for each perhaps pump class in each** 

### 7 **applications. And it becomes this big** 

### 8 **exponential, as it were, analysis.** 

### 9 **And then, we try to take account** 

### 10 **for the efficiency of the pumping system in** 

### 11 **this analysis. So, for pumps that are sold as** 

### 12 **pumps alone, we will have to assume, make some** 

### 13 **assumptions about what type and efficiency of** 

### 14 **motors and if they have controls that were** 

### 15 **added after market, et cetera, et cetera.** 

### 16 **So, this is really getting to how** 

### 17 **we justify standards levels and decide how** 

### 18 **much energy we are going to try and save, but** 

### 19 **there is going to be a lot of work developing** 

### 20 **these profiles. And so, I certainly hope that** 

### 21 **the manufacturers can help us get that right.** 

### 22 **MR. STARR: Yes, I was just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 376**  **1 thinking your equation should probably -- I**  

### 2 **think maybe your transmission one is trying to** 

### 3 **capture this, the VFD efficiency. But if it** 

### 4 **is not that, I don't know, transmission could** 

### 5 **also be, depending on whether it is direct** 

### 6 **drive or belt, or whatever, but I don't know** 

### 7 **if you were trying to capture that, but it** 

### 8 **probably needs to be in there.** 

### 9 **And then, also, the efficiency** 

### 10 **changes based upon where the VFD load is. If** 

### 11 **it is more fully loaded, it is more efficient.** 

### 12 **If it is less loaded, it is less efficient.** 

### 13 **MS. WIDDER: Right.** 

### 14 **MR. STARR: So, that is another** 

### 15 **element in there.** 

### 16 **MS. WIDDER: You know, just to tie** 

### 17 **this all together, but not to make it too** 

### 18 **complex, it is going to get back to what** 

### 19 **metric we have to start with pump efficiency,** 

### 20 **so how we rate pumps, how we define their** 

### 21 **efficiency, at what flow rates, full or part** 

### 22 **load, and then, how we use those rated**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 377**  **1 efficiencies to extrapolate to a more**  

### 2 **annualized energy use.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 4 **MS. WIDDER: Yes, go ahead.** 

### 5 **MR. FERNSTROM: I was going to say** 

### 6 **you might argue that the VFD efficiency is a** 

### 7 **function of the control system efficiency** 

### 8 **because it is controlling the mother.** 

### 9 **MS. WIDDER: Yes, directly to your** 

### 10 **question, I believe the control system** 

### 11 **efficiency --** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **Yes, I think on this one, because** 

### 15 **you are looking at the non-electric systems as** 

### 16 **well, you are going to have to add an** 

### 17 **indicator for like a fossil fuel and turbine** 

### 18 **in terms of some of this equation as well for** 

### 19 **those applications.** 

### 20 **And in terms of the VFD, the** 

### 21 **control system, again, just thinking of the** 

### 22 **VSD or VFD, is that the efficiency of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 378**  **1 driver, the efficiency of the motor after --**  

### 2 **it is really how it affects the motor, the** 

### 3 **pump motor efficiency, not the VFD efficiency,** 

### 4 **right?** 

### 5 **MS. WIDDER: Sorry. Just to make** 

### 6 **sure I understand your question, so we are** 

### 7 **looking at the motor efficiency, which may be** 

### 8 **a function of the VFD efficiency?** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then, could** 

### 10 **incorporate the N sub C.** 

### 11 **MS. WIDDER: Right, right.** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because the VFD is** 

### 13 **having an impact on the motor efficiency.** 

### 14 **MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes. That is** 

### 15 **certainly true.** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then, I guess** 

### 17 **the other thing would be -- again, this is all** 

### 18 **generic -- but there is going to be a control** 

### 19 **system energy usage that is going to be** 

### 20 **separate from the motor. There is going to be** 

### 21 **a control system, there is going to be extra** 

### 22 **kilowatt hours just of the control by itself**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 379**  **1 regardless of what is happening with the pump.**  

### 2 **So, there is an extra, I will say, constant or** 

### 3 **something in there to account for that.** 

### 4 **MS. WIDDER: Right, right.** 

### 5 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.** 

### 6 **MS. WIDDER: And that will have to** 

### 7 **certainly be part of --** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: For the extended** 

### 9 **ones.** 

### 10 **MS. WIDDER: If we are going to** 

### 11 **account for the efficiency, we also have to** 

### 12 **account for the VFD energy use, yes.** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thanks. Thanks.** 

### 14 **MS. WIDDER: Definitely.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?** 

### 16 **MR. FERNSTROM: Well, another way** 

### 17 **of saying that is, with this particular** 

### 18 **extended product category, we are talking** 

### 19 **about potential standby power.** 

### 20 **MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum.** 

### 21 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: It is not just** 

### 22 **standby.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 380**  **1 This is Steve Rosenstock.**  

### 2 **Yes, it is not just standby; it is** 

### 3 **active as well.** 

### 4 **MS. WIDDER: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go now to the** 

### 6 **comment boxes.** 

### 7 **MS. WIDDER: Yes, and this will** 

### 8 **come up a lot. You will hear about this more.** 

### 9 **But now we have some preliminary requests for** 

### 10 **comments that will at least help us get** 

### 11 **started on developing the dataset we will need** 

### 12 **to understand energy use of pumps in the** 

### 13 **field.** 

### 14 **DOE requests input on a lot of** 

### 15 **things, recommendations for identifying those** 

### 16 **high-volume applications, those representative** 

### 17 **applications that we can use to develop** 

### 18 **profiles. We are not going to get every** 

### 19 **application of every pump, but what suite of** 

### 20 **profiles would be representative enough to** 

### 21 **give us a good picture?** 

### 22 **Recommendations on data sources,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 381**  **1 and they could be application-specific or**  

### 2 **market-level. And we can make those estimates** 

### 3 **work together to try to verify our analysis.** 

### 4 **DOE requests inputs on ways to** 

### 5 **characterize pump sizing and selection** 

### 6 **practices for different equipment classes.** 

### 7 **So, maybe pumps are more regularly oversized** 

### 8 **in particular applications. We want to** 

### 9 **account for that in this analysis.** 

### 10 **And the last, 7.5, is requesting** 

### 11 **comment on the nominal duty profiles to** 

### 12 **consider in the rulemaking. So, perhaps there** 

### 13 **are some applications that can be rolled up** 

### 14 **and have more representative duty profiles.** 

### 15 **And this HI nominal assessment that they have** 

### 16 **done, nominal analysis of EEI, I think it is,** 

### 17 **might be appropriate for those nominal duty** 

### 18 **profiles.** 

### 19 **MR. McKINSTRY: Just as a bit of** 

### 20 **information for you, when the EU looked at all** 

### 21 **these different load profiles, they found that** 

### 22 **the load profile didn't really make a whole**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 382**  **1 lot of difference.**  

### 2 **MS. WIDDER: And that would be** 

### 3 **wonderful if we found the same thing.** 

### 4 **(Laughter.)** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Now Louis. That was** 

### 6 **Dave. Louis?** 

### 7 **MR. STARR: So, the last thing is** 

### 8 **Item 7-4, the other thing you might think** 

### 9 **about, there is a certain amount of oversizing** 

### 10 **that happens as kind of good engineering** 

### 11 **practices.** 

### 12 **MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum.** 

### 13 **MR. STARR: Design, you know, is 10** 

### 14 **percent more than break horsepower you want.** 

### 15 **But the other element that happens** 

### 16 **is, once you have selected the motor, there is** 

### 17 **never a 2.3 horsepower motor. It is either 2** 

### 18 **or 3. And so, even if you just did a random** 

### 19 **analysis of sticking in numbers, because the** 

### 20 **operating system points on systems are random.** 

### 21 **And therefore, if you start sticking in** 

### 22 **numbers, you can actually start to see there**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 383**  **1 is inherently a certain amount of oversizing,**  

### 2 **and then you are doing your break horsepower** 

### 3 **oversizing. So, you are getting two elements** 

### 4 **that are playing there together.** 

### 5 **That is why the discussion of using** 

### 6 **a VFD, even on a constant load application,** 

### 7 **can actually save power, just by being able to** 

### 8 **dial that system in when you actually know** 

### 9 **what the system losses really are.** 

### 10 **MS. WIDDER: Right.** 

### 11 **MR. STARR: And so, there is a lot** 

### 12 **of value there.** 

### 13 **MS. WIDDER: Yes.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce?** 

### 15 **MR. LUNG: Just to kind of** 

### 16 **piggyback on that, there is another little** 

### 17 **comment I would like to make on this 7-4.** 

### 18 **There are also times where you could have a** 

### 19 **manufacturing plant that, properly sized, it** 

### 20 **pumps for a given application, but over time** 

### 21 **the end-use requirements may have declined.** 

### 22 **But, because they focus on production and,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 384**  **1 then, they switch production equipment, they**  

### 2 **leave the existing cross-cutting stuff in** 

### 3 **place. This is true for pumps as well as for** 

### 4 **compressors and some other type of equipment.** 

### 5 **So, you could have a situation** 

### 6 **where, because they don't take account of the** 

### 7 **true end-use needs, they keep oversized pumps** 

### 8 **in place; whereas, at the beginning the pumps** 

### 9 **were properly sized. And they end up** 

### 10 **diverting the flow, so they have to keep** 

### 11 **operating that BEP.** 

### 12 **MS. WIDDER: And that certainly** 

### 13 **could be the case, to the extent that we have** 

### 14 **data about how prevalent that practice is and** 

### 15 **in what particular market segments. That is** 

### 16 **how we would be able to account for that in** 

### 17 **our analysis. Just anecdotally noting that** 

### 18 **that sometimes occurs, it is difficult for us** 

### 19 **to incorporate.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman?** 

### 21 **MR. ECKMAN: Yes. You and Dave** 

### 22 **should check with Graham Parker on the load**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 385**  **1 shapes. We have all the ELCAP stuff that was**  

### 2 **put up on the web. So, all the hourly data is** 

### 3 **out there now.** 

### 4 **MS. WIDDER: Yes.** 

### 5 **MR. ECKMAN: So, I don't know;** 

### 6 **there is lots of commercial. I don't think** 

### 7 **there is any industrial, but there is lots of** 

### 8 **commercial. And we can also run down some** 

### 9 **industrial load shapes --** 

### 10 **MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes.** 

### 11 **MR. ECKMAN: -- particularly for** 

### 12 **food processing and irrigation.** 

### 13 **MS. WIDDER: And that often is a** 

### 14 **ripe data source for us.** 

### 15 **MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Well, Graham** 

### 16 **knows where it is at now.** 

### 17 **MS. WIDDER: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.** 

### 19 **MR. FERNSTROM: So, I would like to** 

### 20 **go back to swimming pools as an example, even** 

### 21 **though they are not a subject of this** 

### 22 **rulemaking. And that is, for commercial**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 386**  **1 pools, the Health and Safety Codes require**  

### 2 **that pool pumps be designed to pump against 60** 

### 3 **feet of head at their design flow, when in** 

### 4 **reality the actual head they see is rarely in** 

### 5 **excess of 15 feet. So, there is an example of** 

### 6 **built-in overdesign.** 

### 7 **MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?** 

### 9 **MR. STARR: In terms of oversizing** 

### 10 **and information, I think it is Evan Mills** 

### 11 **with, I think it is California Energy** 

### 12 **Commission, but they do actually have numbers** 

### 13 **on kind of what approximately - from** 

### 14 **retrocommissioning - in terms of what the** 

### 15 **oversizing is. So, they can kind of give you,** 

### 16 **because they did a bit of a study, I think on** 

### 17 **238 samples or something. So, there is** 

### 18 **information out there. I will probably try to** 

### 19 **look for it. But Evan Mills is --** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's scan these** 

### 21 **Request for Comment boxes one time before we** 

### 22 **move on, make sure we have covered what we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 387**  **1 can.**  

### 2 **MS. WIDDER: Yes. Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now we are** 

### 4 **moving on.** 

### 5 **MS. WIDDER: Moving on, we actually** 

### 6 **have another page of Requests for Comments.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I know that.** 

### 8 **(Laughter.)** 

### 9 **MS. WIDDER: Can't wait.** 

### 10 **This is related to -- and this came** 

### 11 **up earlier -- about coming up with our** 

### 12 **baseline assessment of energy use, so that we** 

### 13 **can, then, add on the impact of any standards** 

### 14 **that were to be set.** 

### 15 **So, for that, we will need** 

### 16 **information about the current penetration of** 

### 17 **VSDs. And again, that may vary by application** 

### 18 **or type of pump. And to the extent it does,** 

### 19 **we will need information on that.** 

### 20 **We just really want, in order to** 

### 21 **understand how standards will impact the** 

### 22 **market and impact energy use, we need to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 388**  **1 understand first how pumps are currently**  

### 2 **impacting energy use. And so, any data about** 

### 3 **that -- I think we don't need to accept more** 

### 4 **comments on that.** 

### 5 **Comment on the recommendation on** 

### 6 **the range and number of sizes over which the** 

### 7 **analysis should be carried out. So, this** 

### 8 **analysis could actually get very complex since** 

### 9 **there is a number of specific speed** 

### 10 **applications where the same pump could be sold** 

### 11 **into any number of different applications.** 

### 12 **And to think about looking at each one would** 

### 13 **be nearly impossible. And so, trying to** 

### 14 **characterize what are the representative,** 

### 15 **maybe a high, a low, and a middle, maybe 5 or** 

### 16 **10 representative duty profiles and speeds** 

### 17 **that we could apply our analysis to and get a** 

### 18 **pretty good picture. So, information about** 

### 19 **that.** 

### 20 **And we are requesting comment on** 

### 21 **establishing the mean value and the ranges of** 

### 22 **likely values for some of those efficiencies.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 389**  **1 And also, to the extent that they are**  

### 2 **dependent on one another, we will want to take** 

### 3 **account for that, by receiving comment on that** 

### 4 **dependency. And we are looking for ranges of** 

### 5 **those values because we probably will do** 

### 6 **sensitivity around some of those ranges.** 

### 7 **So, that is the extent of this** 

### 8 **comment. I don't know if there is other** 

### 9 **information. We will probably just need to go** 

### 10 **and consider and we will accept written** 

### 11 **comments, Doug.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, now we are** 

### 13 **moving on.** 

### 14 **Thank you, Sarah** 

### 15 **And back to Alison.** 

### 16 **MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you.** 

### 17 **So, we are going to move on to the** 

### 18 **life-cycle cost and payback period analysis,** 

### 19 **which is very related to the energy use** 

### 20 **analysis. It is from the customer's** 

### 21 **perspective.** 

### 22 **The standards usually have the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 390**  **1 effect of increasing purchase price and**  

### 2 **decreasing operating cost. So, the LCC is** 

### 3 **basically looking at those relationships, the** 

### 4 **customer price plus the sum of annual** 

### 5 **operating cost.** 

### 6 **Again, it is customer perspective,** 

### 7 **and it is always the difference between a** 

### 8 **baseline and the standard level. And we also** 

### 9 **look at payback period in this analysis.** 

### 10 **So, the center of this approach is** 

### 11 **to look at the pump selection process. So,** 

### 12 **basically, matching pump duty points with pump** 

### 13 **equipment. And it is based on the** 

### 14 **distribution of equipment efficiencies** 

### 15 **expected for the compliance year. So, some** 

### 16 **customers will not be affected by the** 

### 17 **standard, and the LCC accounts for that.** 

### 18 **Again, it aggregates the annual** 

### 19 **energy consumption over the pump's lifetime,** 

### 20 **and it uses probability distributions to** 

### 21 **characterize operating costs and other** 

### 22 **parameters. And it is all run using a Monte**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 391**  **1 Carlo simulation to look at a lot of the**  

### 2 **distributions and determine the percent of** 

### 3 **customers benefitting from, being burdened by,** 

### 4 **or not being affected by the standard.** 

### 5 **This is a little visual** 

### 6 **representation of the approach. So, you can** 

### 7 **see at the center is the pump selection box.** 

### 8 **We are basically going to match duty points of** 

### 9 **pumps with the pumps themselves and, also,** 

### 10 **motors.** 

### 11 **And then, we will use the energy** 

### 12 **use analysis that Sarah just discussed to get** 

### 13 **the annual energy consumption and combine that** 

### 14 **with other parameters, including lifetime,** 

### 15 **discount rate, energy price, potentially** 

### 16 **efficiency degradation factor over time, and** 

### 17 **installation cost to arrive at the final life** 

### 18 **cycle cost.** 

### 19 **So, I will just discuss a little** 

### 20 **bit of these inputs. So, installation costs,** 

### 21 **labor, and overhead, and other miscellaneous** 

### 22 **materials and parts. We will look at energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 392**  **1 prices by customer sector, including looking**  

### 2 **at energy tariffs, focusing on the EIA's** 

### 3 **Annual Energy Outlook to estimate future** 

### 4 **energy prices over time, and we may consider** 

### 5 **reactive power prices.** 

### 6 **Ideally, we also will include the** 

### 7 **maintenance and repair costs in the LCC. We** 

### 8 **expect that they won't change with incremental** 

### 9 **increases in efficiency, but may potentially** 

### 10 **change with significant improvements, and we** 

### 11 **are interested in information on that.** 

### 12 **We also will look at equipment** 

### 13 **lifetime. DOE believes the average lifetime** 

### 14 **is about 10 to 15 years with a max around 25.** 

### 15 **However, this depends on various things, such** 

### 16 **as higher values of pump head, horsepower and** 

### 17 **speed, or higher values of temperature. In** 

### 18 **addition, some pumps are basically thrown away** 

### 19 **when they break; whereas, others have repair** 

### 20 **cycles that may be repeated.** 

### 21 **And finally, DOE will look at** 

### 22 **discount rates for commercial and industrial**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 393**  **1 users.**  

### 2 **So, this Request for Comments on a** 

### 3 **variety of these parameters, including** 

### 4 **installation cost, electricity prices, repair** 

### 5 **costs lifetime, any data on degradation of** 

### 6 **efficiency over time, and approaches for** 

### 7 **estimating discount rates.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 10 **EEI.** 

### 11 **Just a comment on 8-2. In your** 

### 12 **approach, you said that DOE will also survey** 

### 13 **reactive power prices. And I was kind of** 

### 14 **curious about why you might do that, because** 

### 15 **that only comes into play if the entire** 

### 16 **facility, the power factor for the entire** 

### 17 **facility, goes below the requirement of the** 

### 18 **utility where they have the reactive meters to** 

### 19 **check on power factors.** 

### 20 **You know, most motors and drives** 

### 21 **are designed to make sure that they don't** 

### 22 **cause power factors to degrade. So, reactive**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 394**  **1 power prices can add to the cost to the end**  

### 2 **users, but especially large commercial and** 

### 3 **industrial, they always make sure that they** 

### 4 **meet the requirement. So, I personally don't** 

### 5 **necessarily see the need of why you would have** 

### 6 **to check on reactive power prices, unless you** 

### 7 **know that some of the technologies considered** 

### 8 **would definitely guarantee that the building** 

### 9 **power factor would go below a certain level.** 

### 10 **MS. WILLIAMS: We will take that** 

### 11 **into account.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?** 

### 13 **MR. FERNSTROM: That caught my** 

### 14 **attention, too, reactive power cost. And the** 

### 15 **way we do it, over, let's call it, an** 

### 16 **objective power factor of 85 percent, you get** 

### 17 **a credit on your bill; below that, you get a** 

### 18 **penalty on your bill. So, no matter where you** 

### 19 **are, power factor makes a difference in the** 

### 20 **customer's bill.** 

### 21 **And no matter where the whole plant** 

### 22 **is, any individual contributor makes a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 395**  **1 difference in the whole plant's power factor.**  

### 2 **It may not be one-for-one. It may be diluted,** 

### 3 **but it makes a difference.** 

### 4 **So, I think that you definitely** 

### 5 **ought to consider the effect or the cost of** 

### 6 **reactive power for consumers because it is a** 

### 7 **real cost.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 10 **Yes, again, I appreciate that.** 

### 11 **There are other utilities that I am aware of** 

### 12 **-- we did a survey; actually, we did it for** 

### 13 **our national key account customers, a survey** 

### 14 **of investor-owned utilities. That is going** 

### 15 **back several years.** 

### 16 **And for the most part, again, there** 

### 17 **are a couple of utilities that have credit** 

### 18 **versus penalty based on the level of where the** 

### 19 **entire building is at the entrance to the** 

### 20 **building, basically, but there are a lot of** 

### 21 **utilities that also have -- if you are below** 

### 22 **it, you get penalized; if you are above it,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 396**  **1 you don't get penalized. So, you don't get**  

### 2 **credit for going above the power factor, but** 

### 3 **you do get penalized if you go below it. So,** 

### 4 **it can make an incremental difference, but is** 

### 5 **it enough to push you into the penalty side?** 

### 6 **If it is every single pump in the building,** 

### 7 **maybe; if it is an individual pump, then** 

### 8 **probably not, I would say.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary?** 

### 10 **MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, I think** 

### 11 **we have two competing arguments here. One is** 

### 12 **maybe you ought to treat it the way that it is** 

### 13 **prevalent in this country among the most** 

### 14 **utilities. On the other hand, even for those** 

### 15 **that don't give a credit above a certain** 

### 16 **level, it still has an impact on their cost,** 

### 17 **and they are simply distributing those costs** 

### 18 **differently among those customers. So, it** 

### 19 **does represent a cost to society, no matter** 

### 20 **which way it goes.** 

### 21 **And I had a comment on degradation.** 

### 22 **That is, we ought to be looking at the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 397**  **1 degradation of the higher-efficiency pump**  

### 2 **relative to the degradation of the standard** 

### 3 **efficiency pump.** 

### 4 **So, that should only be a factor if** 

### 5 **we think, for some reason, the higher** 

### 6 **efficiency pump is going to have a greater** 

### 7 **degradation than pumps in general. And it** 

### 8 **might work the other way, where the higher** 

### 9 **efficiency pump has less degradation.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 11 **MR. STARR: If you are going to** 

### 12 **look at that reactive power, you should** 

### 13 **probably be looking at the demand charge side,** 

### 14 **too, I would think.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Did we hear anything** 

### 16 **about installation costs or repair costs yet?** 

### 17 **I don't think so. No comments on those?** 

### 18 **MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for** 

### 19 **Hydraulic Institute.** 

### 20 **We didn't prepare a response on** 

### 21 **these. So, we will probably be able to give** 

### 22 **you some information in our written response.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 398**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That is**  

### 2 **helpful. Okay.** 

### 3 **Then, we are moving on.** 

### 4 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, the next** 

### 5 **analysis is the shipments analysis, which** 

### 6 **serves as the foundation for both the national** 

### 7 **impact analysis and the manufacturer impact** 

### 8 **analysis that Dan discussed earlier.** 

### 9 **So, the purpose is pretty** 

### 10 **straightforward. We want to project future** 

### 11 **shipments by equipment class, so that we can** 

### 12 **have the proper baseline from which to** 

### 13 **calculate energy savings and other** 

### 14 **information.** 

### 15 **We will look at a number of data** 

### 16 **sources, anything that we can find.** 

### 17 **Typically, DOE projects shipments for a 30-** 

### 18 **year period, beginning on the expected** 

### 19 **compliance date of a standard. DOE will** 

### 20 **attempt to tie growth indices from industrial** 

### 21 **and commercial sectors to the shipments** 

### 22 **projection. And in some cases, the shipments**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 399**  **1 projection in the standards case may differ**  

### 2 **from that in the base case because of changes** 

### 3 **in purchase price or operating cost.** 

### 4 **So, we request comments on the** 

### 5 **shipments methodology as well as historical** 

### 6 **shipments and bookings data for the equipment** 

### 7 **classes and any information available on how** 

### 8 **the standards might impact shipments for the** 

### 9 **standards case as compared to the base case.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments at this** 

### 11 **time?** 

### 12 **(No response.)** 

### 13 **No comments at this time.** 

### 14 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Then, moving** 

### 15 **on to the national impact analysis, the** 

### 16 **purpose is twofold: to derive national energy** 

### 17 **savings and net present value. Where the LCC** 

### 18 **focuses on customers, this is at a national** 

### 19 **level.** 

### 20 **So, we will look at the annual** 

### 21 **series of both energy and economic impacts.** 

### 22 **Again, as I mentioned, it is based on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 400**  **1 shipments model. It also includes costs and**  

### 2 **energy use per unit from the LCC. It involves** 

### 3 **efficiency trends over time. And all this is** 

### 4 **aggregated over the years. And so, we will** 

### 5 **report both the national energy savings in** 

### 6 **both primary and full-fuel cycle savings as** 

### 7 **well as the national customer NPV, and it** 

### 8 **takes into account discount rates.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: I don't see the** 

### 10 **comment box.** 

### 11 **MS. WILLIAMS: I have no comment** 

### 12 **box, but feel free to comment.** 

### 13 **(Laughter.)** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 15 **(No response.)** 

### 16 **We are going to keep going.** 

### 17 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, the** 

### 18 **remainder of the analyses are for the NOPR** 

### 19 **analyses, not the preliminary. So, in the** 

### 20 **interest of time, we could choose to not go** 

### 21 **over those today.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you just**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 401**  **1 mention them and see if they are familiar?**  

### 2 **MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: These are what they** 

### 4 **call further downstream, that is, later.** 

### 5 **Charles?** 

### 6 **MR. LLENZA: Let me just mention** 

### 7 **this section is just basically we lay out the** 

### 8 **foundation and the framework, and then the** 

### 9 **preliminary analysis. And then, at the NOPR** 

### 10 **stage, we actually construct a very** 

### 11 **comprehensive TSD with all this information.** 

### 12 **So, what you see in the NOPR part** 

### 13 **here is, again, a part of a process here. You** 

### 14 **are putting the frosting on the cake, as I** 

### 15 **call it, and the candles. And so, it is a lot** 

### 16 **of detail, but it is also been built up** 

### 17 **through the prior two processes, and lots of** 

### 18 **work, by the way.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, just take a few** 

### 20 **moments to list them.** 

### 21 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, just go through** 

### 22 **this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 402**  **1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, we have**  

### 2 **the customer subgroup, which is basically just** 

### 3 **the LCC for certain disproportionately** 

### 4 **impacted subgroups.** 

### 5 **We do an emissions analysis for** 

### 6 **several of these emissions, you can see here,** 

### 7 **and, also, monetize some of them, currently,** 

### 8 **CO2 and NOx.** 

### 9 **We do a utility impact analysis to** 

### 10 **look at avoided capacity.** 

### 11 **An employment impact analysis.** 

### 12 **While the MIA looks at direct employment** 

### 13 **impacts, this looks at indirect ones resulting** 

### 14 **from shifts in consumer expenditures.** 

### 15 **And we, finally, do a regulatory** 

### 16 **impact analysis that looks at the potential** 

### 17 **for other non-regulatory alternatives to** 

### 18 **affect the energy efficiency of pumps.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: So, that concludes** 

### 20 **the PowerPoints that we have been trying to go** 

### 21 **through.** 

### 22 **I know, we are not quite done yet.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 403**  **1 (Laughter.)**  

### 2 **But, in the interest of being** 

### 3 **efficient, I am going to hand out these** 

### 4 **evaluation forms now, so you can ponder how** 

### 5 **you will fill them out.** 

### 6 **(Laughter.)** 

### 7 **Tom, yes?** 

### 8 **MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I am going to get** 

### 9 **on my saw again.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Before you do,** 

### 11 **though -- (laughter) --** 

### 12 **MR. ECKMAN: Very quickly.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: -- just reminder** 

### 14 **that now is an opportunity for anybody that** 

### 15 **wishes to, to make final comments, brief,** 

### 16 **summary comments, anything that didn't get** 

### 17 **covered sufficiently during the day.** 

### 18 **Tom Eckman, you are up.** 

### 19 **MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Before starting,** 

### 20 **I don't know, maybe a year or two years ago,** 

### 21 **DOE began monetizing the emissions. Those** 

### 22 **prices cover a wide range of costs. They use**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 404**  **1 the intergovernmental estimate of that. That**  

### 2 **is wonderful. But they neglect to monetize** 

### 3 **the cost of avoided new electric capacity,** 

### 4 **which are real costs paid by real ratepayers.** 

### 5 **And the social cost of carbon, we** 

### 6 **are going to pay sometime; I don't know what** 

### 7 **it is. But the reality is, when we avoid** 

### 8 **plants by doing these things, which is the** 

### 9 **purpose of doing these things, it saves people** 

### 10 **money. And I would encourage the DOE, once** 

### 11 **again, to take a look at that and try to** 

### 12 **monetize the cost of avoided capacity that is** 

### 13 **affected by these rules. Whether they are in** 

### 14 **individual rules or cumulatively, it is** 

### 15 **significant, but we have never figured out how** 

### 16 **much it saved us. And it is an important** 

### 17 **number to know.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve?** 

### 19 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 20 **Yes, I am going to go back, also,** 

### 21 **to the emissions analysis. There is a lot** 

### 22 **going on, and it will impact the analysis,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 405**  **1 especially because for this analysis, for this**  

### 2 **rulemaking, we are talking about a rule that** 

### 3 **is finalized in 2016 with standards that go** 

### 4 **into effect, at the earliest, in 2019.** 

### 5 **At the current time, EPA is about** 

### 6 **to finalize CO2 emission standards for new** 

### 7 **power plants. They are also working on a rule** 

### 8 **for CO2 on existing power plants. I don't** 

### 9 **know how soon that will be out, but probably** 

### 10 **within the next few years.** 

### 11 **The EPA is also about to finalize** 

### 12 **rules on mercury at power plants, which will** 

### 13 **go into effect by 2016. Basically, they will** 

### 14 **get three; 2016, 2017 is the timeframe before** 

### 15 **this rule goes into effect.** 

### 16 **So, my point is and, also, I have** 

### 17 **had issues, and I have discussed this, so** 

### 18 **mercury will be capped. Of course, nitrogen** 

### 19 **oxides, there has been an issue because the** 

### 20 **monetized nitrogen oxide seems to be based on** 

### 21 **a study that was done in 2001. Okay.** 

### 22 **And they keep it changing it to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 406**  **1 reflect current dollar values. But, again, if**  

### 2 **you look at the emissions, look at EPA data,** 

### 3 **nitrous oxides emissions from the electric** 

### 4 **power sector since 2001 have gone down well** 

### 5 **over 50 percent. So, the monetized value has** 

### 6 **been inflated while the actual emissions have** 

### 7 **gone down. Therefore, there seems to be** 

### 8 **confluence, a disconnect there in terms of the** 

### 9 **value versus the actual what is happening out** 

### 10 **there.** 

### 11 **Also, as part of the analysis,** 

### 12 **which I have agreed with, it is wherever** 

### 13 **emissions have been capped like SO2 or NOx,** 

### 14 **that basically there is zero impact from** 

### 15 **efficiency upgrades because of the way the** 

### 16 **caps work.** 

### 17 **Well, DOE is not taking into** 

### 18 **account their CO2 caps in New England, and now** 

### 19 **one just started in California, starting this** 

### 20 **year. So, again, that has not been taken into** 

### 21 **account, into the analysis. In my view,** 

### 22 **eventually, when it is monetized, it is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 407**  **1 overstating the impact because it is not**  

### 2 **taking into account the significant amount of** 

### 3 **the caps that are going into effect here.** 

### 4 **So, I will write some of this down,** 

### 5 **but I believe that changes are significant and** 

### 6 **that some of this monetization is overstating** 

### 7 **the eventual domestic benefit of the emissions** 

### 8 **reductions.** 

### 9 **Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 11 **So, now, yes, please. Your name?** 

### 12 **MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI.** 

### 13 **One quick thing. AHRI is** 

### 14 **supportive of the positions held by HI.** 

### 15 **That's all.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank** 

### 17 **you.** 

### 18 **I have a final invitation for final** 

### 19 **remarks before I turn it back to Charles to go** 

### 20 **over all of the details surrounding submission** 

### 21 **of comments and all of that.** 

### 22 **MR. FERNSTROM: Great job. Thank**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 408**  **1 you.**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: And I will be brief on** 

### 3 **that.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, say it again?** 

### 5 **MR. FERNSTROM: Good job. Thank** 

### 6 **you.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, thank you.** 

### 8 **Thanks to all of you.** 

### 9 **Final comments, additional final** 

### 10 **comments? I don't want anyone to be closed** 

### 11 **out here.** 

### 12 **(No response.)** 

### 13 **Then, my final comment is to thank** 

### 14 **you all. It was a very, very constructive** 

### 15 **meeting today, a lot of really good content.** 

### 16 **We really covered a lot of ground, especially** 

### 17 **the new participants in this rather** 

### 18 **complicated regulatory process generally and a** 

### 19 **very complicated subject, and traversed** 

### 20 **adequately, competently as the day went on.** 

### 21 **So, many thanks to all of you and for your** 

### 22 **endurance; I appreciate that as well.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 409**  **1 Back to Charles.**  

### 2 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, thanks, everybody** 

### 3 **for attending. I know this has been a little** 

### 4 **bit long and winded maybe.** 

### 5 **But I also just want to put one** 

### 6 **thought in everybody's mind. We have a** 

### 7 **regulatory process. We have an obligation to** 

### 8 **fulfill our regulatory mandate via a process** 

### 9 **that we have that is pretty rigorous and that** 

### 10 **is inclusive of your comments.** 

### 11 **I also want to make sure that you** 

### 12 **understand that the consensus process may** 

### 13 **provide you alternatives that you don't have** 

### 14 **through the regulatory process. And we sort** 

### 15 **of have to fill in all the boxes and cross all** 

### 16 **the "T's" and dot all the "I's". In the** 

### 17 **consensus process, you may have different** 

### 18 **flexibility.** 

### 19 **I have provided a website for the** 

### 20 **ASRAC Committee. It is something that** 

### 21 **probably would be beneficial to bring this up** 

### 22 **to ASRAC and to see if you could explore**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 410**  **1 alternative methods for being out of the box**  

### 2 **of our regulatory process in terms of** 

### 3 **achieving kind of the same objectives, which** 

### 4 **is saving energy through improvements in** 

### 5 **eliminating the bad actors in terms of pumps** 

### 6 **in the U.S. economy.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: If they wish to** 

### 8 **interact or pursue ASRAC as something to** 

### 9 **consider, how would they do that?** 

### 10 **MR. LLENZA: Yes, there is a** 

### 11 **website. I already sent a website link, and I** 

### 12 **think it has been distributed. So, feel free** 

### 13 **to attend. I think there is a webinar on it,** 

### 14 **too. So, you probably attend remotely. You** 

### 15 **don't have to necessarily travel. And they** 

### 16 **have a comment period, just like any process** 

### 17 **here at DOE. So, you are more than welcome to** 

### 18 **send in your comments, written comments,** 

### 19 **within their time limits.** 

### 20 **So, I just want to again thank you** 

### 21 **for attending. This has been long and winded.** 

### 22 **I am not going to go everything. The**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 411**  **1 extension of the comment period closes May the**  

### 2 **2nd. And then, here is the process,** 

### 3 **basically, on how to submit comments.** 

### 4 **Again, thanks, and safe travels** 

### 5 **back.** 

### 6 **(Whereupon, at 4:42 p.m., the** 

### 7 **meeting was adjourned.)** 

### 8 **9 10**  **11 12**  **13 14**  **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 412 A AARON2:3 ability 68:3 204:1

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220:5NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 464

Energy Conservation Standards for Commercial and Industrial Pumps

US DOE

02-20-13

Washington, DC