1

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### Environmental Protection Agency 1

2

3

4

5 

### Public Hearing on the 6


### PROPOSED FEDERAL PLAN AND MODEL RULES FOR THE 7


### POWER PLAN FOR EXISTING POWER PLANTS 8

9

10 

### 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. 11 

### Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12

13

14 

### 1595 Wynkoop Street 15 

### Denver, Colorado 80202 16

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### MORNING SESSION 1


### EPA PANEL: 2 

### JENNY NOONAN, Chair; 3 

### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 4

5 

### CATE HIGHT, 6 

### Office of Atmospheric Programs 7

8 

### LAURA FARRIS, 9 

### Climate Change Coordinator 10

11


### AFTERNOON SESSION 12


### EPA PANEL: 13 

### JENNY NOONAN, Chair, 14 

### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 15

16 

### NICHOLAS SWANSON, 17 

### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 18

19 

### SCOTT JACKSON, 20 

### Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 21

223

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### C O N T E N T S 1


### PUBLIC COMMENTS PAGE 2 

### Morning Session 3 

### CHRISTIAN REESE, 4 

### Executive Director of CLUB 20 13 5 

### KATHY TOLMAN, Citizen 20 6 

### JOHN KINKAID, Commissioner of Moffatt County 22 7 

### RAY BECK, Mayor of Craig, Colorado 26 8 

### JOHN GRAVES, Minnkota Power Cooperative 31 9 

### KATIE DITTELBERGER, Earth Justice 35 10 

### JEFF BROWN, Pacific Gas and Electric Company 40 11 

### ANNE MCDEVITT, Environment Colorado 46 12 

### ANN LIVINGSTON, Program Manager for State and 13 

### Local Engagement (SWEEP) 51 14 

### CATHERINE COLLENTINE, Sierra Club in Denver 54 15 

### MICHAEL CASHIN, Minnesota Power ALLETE 60 16 

### DOUG FITZGERALD, Citizen 66 17 

### JESSICA ABELL, Colorado Interfaith Power and 18 

### Light 72 19 

### ALEC HERR, Sierra Club of Denver 77 20 

### MICHAEL CASHIN, Speaking on behalf of Tyler 21 

### Hamman 81 224

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### PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE 1


### CONTENTS 2 

### JACK IHLE, Xcel Energy 85 3 

### JENNY WILFRED, Citizen 92 4


### AFTERNOON SESSION 5 

### EMMA PINTER, Colorado Moms Know Best 99 6 

### ANGELIQUE KENISON, Citizen 101 7 

### ART ETTER, Citizen 102 8 

### JEFF HART, Citizen 106 9 

### DR. CHRIS STANLEY, Citizen 112 10 

### BRAD COFIELD, Wagner Equipment Company 116 11 

### RONALD LARSON, Citizen 120 12 

### SOREN HERMANSON, Citizen 122 13 

### MORRIS SPARKMAN, Collegians for a Constructive 14 

### Tomorrow 128 15 

### JONATHON SHEPARD, Citizen 132 16 

### DANIEL DOWNS, Citizen 139 17

18

19

20

21

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1


### MORNING SESSION 2 

### 9:02 a.m. 3 

### MS. NOONAN: Good morning. My name is 4 

### Jenny Noonan and I am the chair of today’s public 5 

### hearing. And thank you all today for coming. 6 

### Joining me today on the panel are Cate Hight and 7 

### Laura Farris. And we welcome you today. 8 

### I am going to give a brief summary, or 9 

### I’m going to give a summary, I don’t claim that 10 

### it’s brief, of the proposal ahead of us. And we 11 

### look forward to welcoming speakers at the end of 12 

### that. I will also have some housekeeping and a 13 

### description of how this process is going to work. 14 

### So to begin, fossil fuel-fired power 15 

### plants are the largest source of U.S. carbon 16 

### dioxide emissions, or carbon pollution, 17 

### accounting for thirty-one percent of U.S. total 18 

### greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing carbon 19 

### pollution from power plants is an essential step 20 

### in lessening the impacts of climate change and 21 

### providing a more certain future for our 226

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### environment, our health and future generations. 1 

### We are here today to listen to your 2 

### comments on the EPA’s proposed federal plan and 3 

### model rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 4 

### Existing Power Plants. 5 

### On October 23 rd 

### , 2015 the U.S. 6 

### Environmental Protection Agency -- 7 

### MS. HIGHT: Do you want to see if the 8 

### other one is working? 9 

### MS. NOONAN: Yeah. Hello -- I will just 10 

### speak loudly. If you can’t hear me, please feel 11


### free to move to the front. 12 

### On October 23rd, the U.S.E.P.A. 13 

### established -- published in the Federal Register, 14 

### its proposed federal plan to implement emission 15 

### guidelines for power plants under section 111(d) 16 

### of the Clean Power -- of the Clean Air Act. The 17 

### EPA’s 111(d) rule, known as the Clean Power Plan, 18 

### takes effect on December 22, 2015 and applies to 19 

### affected power plants that began construction on 20 

### or before January 8, 2014. 21 

### The federal plan and model trading rules 227

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### demonstrate a readily available path forward for 1 

### Clean Power Plan implementation and present 2 

### flexible, affordable implementation options for 3


### states. 4 

### The model rules provide a cost-effective 5 

### pathway to adopt a trading system supported by 6 

### the EPA and make it easy for states and power 7 

### plants to use emissions trading. It does the 8 

### heavy lifting for states who may choose to use a 9 

### model rule as their state plan. The EPA would 10 

### implement the federal plan in any state that does 11 

### not submit an approvable plan. 12 

### This proposal includes four discrete 13 

### proposed actions. One, a rate-based federal plan 14 

### for each state with affected Electric Generating 15 

### Units, or EGUs. A mass-based federal plan for 16 

### each state with affected EGUs. A rate-based 17 

### model trading rule for potential use by any 18 

### state. And a mass-based model trading rule for 19 

### potential use by any state. 20 

### The proposed federal plans will achieve 21 

### the same levels of emissions performance as 228

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### required of state plans under the Clean Power 1 

### Plan. Federal plans will be finalized only for 2 

### those states with affected EGUs that the EPA 3 

### determines have failed to submit an approvable 4 

### 111(d) state plan by the relevant deadlines set 5 

### in the emission guidelines. 6 

### In those states where a federal plan may 7 

### be required, a final federal plan will implement 8 

### the same emission guidelines for affected power 9 

### plants outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It 10 

### would not require additional control requirements 11 

### or impose additional costs. 12 

### Even where a federal plan is put in place 13 

### for a particular state, that state will still be 14 

### able to submit a plan, which, if approved, will 15 

### allow the state and its sources to exit the 16 

### federal plan. States may take delegation of 17 

### administrative aspects of the federal plan in 18 

### order to become the primary implementers, or 19 

### submit partial state plans in order to take over 20 

### the implementation of a portion of a federal 21 

### plan. States operating under a federal plan may 229

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### adopt complimentary measures outside of that plan 1 

### to facilitate compliance and lower costs to the 2 

### benefit of the power generators and consumers. 3 

### The proposal also includes, excuse me, 4 

### model rules for those states that are developing 5 

### their own state plans. The EPA intends to 6 

### finalize both rate-based and mass-based model 7 

### trading rules in the summer of 2016. 8 

### A state program that adheres to the model 9 

### trading rule provision specified in this 10 

### rulemaking, when final, would be presumptively be 11 

### approvable. There are stand-alone portions of 12 

### the model trading rules, such as the evaluation, 13 

### measurement and verification procedures for 14 

### emission rate credits, also known as (ERCs), that 15 

### would be approvable even if a state adopted an 16 

### approach that differs in the other respects from 17


### the model rule. 18 

### In addition, the proposal contains: 19 

### A finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 20 

### implement a section 111(d) federal plan for the 21 

### affected EGUs located in Indian country. CO2 2210

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### emission performance rates for these facilities 1 

### were finalized in the final Clean Power Plan. 2 

### And information on how the EPA will reach 3 

### out to communities throughout the comment period 4 

### and an overview of the actions that the EPA is 5 

### taking to ensure that vulnerable communities are 6 

### not being disproportionately impacted by this 7 

### rulemaking. 8 

### If you would like more details on the 9 

### proposed rule there are fact sheets available at 10 

### the registration desk and out on a table in the 11 

### hallway here. Before we get started, I’d like to 12 

### go through a few housekeeping items and ground 13 

### rules that will help today’s hearing run 14 

### smoothly. 15 

### First, please be sure you have checked in 16 

### at the registration desk even if you are not 17 

### planning on speaking today. And if you speak -- 18 

### if you signed up to speak online or by phone but 19 

### haven’t told us that you’re here yet, please step 20 

### out to the registration desk and let the EPA 21 

### staff know that you have arrived. 2211

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### I will call the speakers up in pairs. 1 

### When your name is called, please come to the 2 

### speakers’ table at the front of the room. When I 3 

### call on you to speak, please state your name and 4 

### spell it for the court reporter. Your comments 5 

### will be transcribed and included in the record of 6 

### comments on the proposed rule. 7 

### Each speaker will have five minutes to 8 

### give comments. We have a timer light to help you 9 

### know how much time you have left to speak. When 10 

### the light turns from green to yellow, that means 11 

### you have one minute remaining. When it turns to 12 

### red, that’s a signal that you are at five 13 

### minutes, and it’s time to stop. When you are 14 

### finished speaking, please remain at the table 15 

### until the person next to you has completed his or 16 

### her testimony. 17 

### We are here to listen to you today; 18 

### however, a panel member may ask a clarifying 19 

### question. After we have completed that process, 20 

### I will call up the next pair of speakers and so 21



### on. 2212

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### If you have brought a written copy of 1 

### your testimony, please give that to one of us, 2 

### the court reporter or the staff at the 3 

### registration desk before you leave today. We 4 

### will put any written comments submitted today in 5 

### the official docket for the proposed rule. 6 

### We also have comment cards available at 7 

### the registration desk and again on the table 8 

### outside, if you would like to submit additional 9 

### written comments today. 10 

### If you want to comment in writing later, 11 

### stop by the materials table near the registration 12 

### desk and pick up a copy of the instructions for 13 

### submitting written comments. Comments must be 14 

### received by January 21, 20116. 15 

### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 16 

### much consideration to comments submitted in 17 

### writing as we do at public hearings like this 18 

### one. So if you have more comments that you would 19 

### like to provide to the EPA, please submit them by 20 

### the comment period deadline. Your comments will 21 

### be reviewed. 2213

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### If you have any questions during the day, 1 

### please see the staff at the registration desk, 2 

### and someone will assist you. 3 

### Again, thank you for taking the time to 4 

### come today and we look forward to hearing your 5 

### comments. Let’s get started. 6 

### And again, I apologize for the microphone 7 

### -- I will try again. 8 

### Okay. There we go. Christian Reese and 9 

### Kathy Tollman. And on deck we have Commissioner 10 

### John Kinkaid and Mayor Ray Beck. See how the 11 

### microphone works. 12 

### MR. REESE: They work good. Thank you 13 

### for holding this public hearing, first and 14 

### foremost, and thank you to all of the folks who 15 

### went through the treacherous weather to be here 16 

### today. 17 

### My name is Christian Reese and I am the 18 

### executive director of CLUB 20, an organization 19 

### that represents the interests of businesses, 20 

### individuals, and local governments in twenty-two 21 

### counties in Western Colorado. 2214

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### We were founded in 1953 -- 1 

### MS. HIGHT: If you hit -- it must be, you 2 

### may be accidentally hitting the button on the 3 

### side. 4 

### MS. NOONAN: We can hear you. 5 

### MS. REESE: Okay. I speak loudly. 6 

### Founded in 1953, CLUB 20 has a diverse membership 7 

### of over 1100 members representing interests 8 

### ranging from education, transportation, and 9 

### energy. Our bi-partisan leadership on a 10 

### multitude of issues has given us credibility as 11 

### the most influential voice in Western Colorado. 12 

### I am here with you today to highlight the 13 

### importance of the coal industry in Western 14 

### Colorado and the number of lives it directly 15 

### impacts in our communities. With an annual 16 

### economic impact of over 2.8 billion dollars to 17 

### Colorado’s Gross Domestic Product, Colorado’s 18 

### coal industry directly employs 6,200 individuals 19 

### and indirectly contributes to more than 23,000 20 

### jobs in our region. These individuals are highly 21 

### compensated for their time, averaging over 2215

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### 110,000.00 in wages and benefits per employee 1 

### annually. In these difficult economic times, 2 

### high paying jobs in our rural communities are 3 

### rare and these jobs allow families to contribute 4 

### back to our local economies. 5 

### Colorado’s eight coal mines and three of 6 

### the state’s coal-fired power plants all reside 7 

### within Western Colorado. Each of these 8 

### operations employs locals who have a commitment 9 

### to protecting and preserving the land that makes 10 

### their communities worth living in. We can find 11 

### no better stewards of our lands and environment 12 

### than the locals who live, hunt and recreate on 13


### them. 14 

### Currently, sixty percent of Colorado’s 15 

### energy portfolio is the result of energy produced 16 

### by coal. With new regulations we will see a 17 

### drastic reduction in coal production which will 18 

### result in higher energy prices for our already 19 

### struggling Western Colorado families. In fact, 20 

### we have already seen a fifty percent reduction in 21 

### coal production over the last couple of years and 2216

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### Colorado has a lot its largest export market due 1 

### to regulations with intentions similar to this 2 

### proposal. Our rural communities cannot afford 3 

### the loss in jobs and increase in energy rates 4


### that would come as a result of the Clean Power 5


### Plan. 6 

### The implementation of the Clean Power 7 

### Plan will have significant impacts to the State 8 

### of Colorado and the country as a whole, 9 

### increasing electric costs for consumers, damaging 10 

### local economies, and will cost our state 11 

### incalculable resources to fully implement without 12


### measureable outcomes. 13 

### While the intent of the Clean Power Plan 14 

### is to reduce carbon emissions impacting our 15 

### constantly changing climate, it falls short in 16 

### describing how the EPA will actually measure and 17 

### quantify these carbon regulations -- or carbon 18 

### reductions, I apologize. In fact, EPA officials 19 

### admit that climate change impacts will be 20 

### virtually immeasurable, reducing global 21 

### temperatures by 16 thousandths of one degree 2217

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### Fahrenheit. 1 

### If the intent of the EPA and our current 2 

### administration is to reduce global carbon 3 

### emissions to have a measureable impact on climate 4 

### change, we must address the carbon impact of 5 

### foreign countries, such as China. China emits 6 

### more carbon dioxide in one month, 800 million 7 

### tons, than the Clean Power Plan reduces in one 8 

### year, 550 million tons. 9 

### If we are truly genuine about the intent 10 

### of this plan, we must address the worst offenders 11 

### of carbon emissions and work toward foreign 12 

### policies to reign in the pollution of foreign 13 

### countries. 14 

### While the results of the Clean Power Plan 15 

### will be largely immeasurable, the economics of 16 

### this plan will be numerous. The Clean Power 17 

### Plan, if implemented, will be the most expensive 18 

### regulation imposed on the power sector in our 19 

### nation’s history. This plan will not only result 20 

### in the closure of electric generating plants 21 

### across the country, but will also cost high 2218

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### paying jobs, putting families out of work in an 1 

### already struggling economy. 2 

### The plan will also drastically increase 3 

### consumers’ cost to purchase electricity to run 4 

### their businesses, educate their children and heat 5 

### homes during the winter. In Colorado alone, it 6 

### is projected that electric rates will increase by 7 

### more than nineteen percent by 2030, costing 8 

### already struggling families an estimated 400.00 9 

### per year in additional utility bills. 10 

### Many power plants will turn to natural 11 

### gas as a replacement for coal, utilizing a fuel 12 

### source with a tumultuous and frequently varying 13 

### commodity that has a higher cost for electric 14 

### generation than coal. The utilization of natural 15 

### gas will also increase utility bills for 16 

### commercial and industrial customers who will 17 

### ultimately pass these expenses along to 18 

### customers, inflating the prices for goods and 19 

### services. 20 

### Additionally, the increased demand on 21 

### natural gas from the power sector will cause 2219

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### natural gas prices across the board to rise. It 1 

### is projected that natural gas prices will more 2 

### than double in cost by 2030, forcing many low 3 

### income and rural families to choose between 4 

### heating their homes and providing for their 5 

### families. 6 

### Concerns about the increased consumer 7 

### prices and wide-ranging economic impacts of the 8 

### Clean Power Plan have prompted more than half of 9 

### the states, including Colorado, to take legal 10 

### action to stop the implementation of the Clean 11 

### Power Plan. If successful, this litigation will 12 

### protect Colorado consumers from the crippling 13 

### economic impact of the Clean Power Plan and allow 14 

### for a more thoughtful, strategic and realistic 15 

### plan to address environmental and economic 16



### concerns. 17 

### With some of the cleanest coal in the 18 

### country being produced right here in Colorado, we 19 

### must fight to have sensible regulations that lend 20 

### themselves to maximum economic recovery of our 21 

### coal reserves. We have an obligation not only to 2220

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### ourselves but to future generations to protect 1 

### coal production and electric generation, ensure 2 

### energy costs remain affordable and utilize this 3 

### precious resource for generations to come. We 4 

### cannot afford to “leave coal in the ground” and 5 

### we must continue to work together for a solution 6 

### that protects our communities both 7 

### environmentally and economically. Thank you. 8 

### COURT REPORTER: Can I get the spelling 9 

### of your name? 10


### MS. REESE: Yeah. 11 

### MS. TOLMAN: My name is Kathy Tolman, T12 

### O-L-M-A-N. And I am just a citizen from Wheat 13 

### Ridge. And so I just I just wanted to talk a 14 

### little bit about that coal has problems but 15 

### regulation isn’t all of the source of its 16 

### problems. And we are moving forward -- we as 17 

### people are moving forward. So it’s kind of like 18 

### if you were a manufacturer of buggy whips, you 19 

### know, that just ended up going away. And that’s 20 

### where we are with coal. 21 

### Coal is faced with serious competition 2221

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### with natural gas. And so, you know, everything 1 

### these days is global. And the coal issue is 2 

### global because climate change is global. And 3 

### people are responding to this across the globe. 4 

### And so new technologies are coming forward, and 5 

### will continue to come forward. And that’s always 6 

### been the driver for new technologies, is the 7 

### needs -- when needs change. 8 

### And we are at a time when needs are 9 

### changing. My concern is that we create and 10 

### consciously think about how we create -- how we 11 

### do this. Create win/win situations so that the 12 

### communities that are coal communities where coal 13 

### mines have been the major source of employment, 14 

### that they do not suffer. And it’s not like I 15 

### have a solution to those but I wanted us to keep 16 

### that in mind, that we need to look at these 17 

### communities as not disposable communities, but as 18 

### communities that we need to bring along with the 19 

### changes that come along. 20 

### I also wanted to just let you know of a 21 

### good article that was in Sunday’s Post, Denver 2222

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### Post, called Coal blocks view of coals trouble. 1 

### And it was written by Elizabeth Shogren from High 2 

### Country News. And it’s a good article about our 3 

### -- Colorado's problems. Thank you. 4 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. 5 

### Commissioner John Kinkaid and Mayor Ray Beck, 6 

### please. And on deck we have John Graves and 7 

### Katie Dittelberger, please. 8 

### MR. KINKAID: John Kinkaid, K-i-n -- 9 

### MS. NOONAN: Try this button on the side, 10 

### see if it turns to green. 11


### MR. KINKAID: K-I-N-K-A-I-D. 12 

### I will try to speak up. 13 

### MS. NOONAN: Please, thank you. 14 

### MR. KINKAID: I wanted to visit with you 15 

### this morning about my community and my county. 16 

### I’m from Moffat County, Colorado. And in Moffat 17 

### County we have two coal mines and one power 18 

### plant. And then in Northwest Colorado we have 19 

### two power plants and four coal mines. So we feel 20 

### like we are at the heart of -- we are at ground21


### zero for the war on coal. 2223

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### And I wanted to tell you about my son. 1 

### My son graduated from college at Western State 2 

### University in Gunnison in 2008 when the great 3 

### recession hit. And my daughter-in-law graduated 4 

### that same year from Western State. He couldn't 5 

### find a job in his field, which was biochemistry. 6 

### And my daughter-in-law couldn’t find a job in her 7 

### field, which was psychology. 8 

### They wound up moving to Floresta, 9 

### Colorado. And my son went to work as a laborer 10 

### at a saw mill and my daughter-in-law wound up 11 

### using her Bachelor of Science to work at Taco 12 

### Bell. Financially the wheels came off for them 13 

### and they wound up moving in with us in Craig. 14 

### When they did that, my son was able to get a job 15 

### at Twentymile Coal Mine, which is in our 16 

### neighboring Routt, and my daughter-in-law got a 17 

### job for social services with her psychology 18 

### degree. That got them back on their feet. So 19 

### it’s a story about coal. And that let them buy 20 

### their own home, it let them -- they now have a 21 

### mortgage and two car payments and they are doing 2224

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### quite well. 1 

### And my son left the coal mine and went to 2 

### work at Tri-State’s Craig Station. He now works 3 

### in their laboratory. So now because of coal, he 4 

### is able to use his degree in biochemistry in the 5 

### laboratory for Craig Station Power Plant. And my 6 

### daughter-in-law uses her psychology degree for 7 

### the Department of Social Services. So I just 8 

### wanted to share that story. And that’s just one 9 

### story of hundreds of stories that highlight how 10 

### important coal is to our local economy and the 11 

### well-being of citizens, our neighbors. 12 

### It’s just huge. And quite frankly, we 13 

### have never recovered from the great recession 14 

### because of the state legislature here in 15 

### Colorado. There was a fuel switching bill for 16 

### Excel Energy to switch from coal to natural gas. 17 

### And that caused Twentymile mine to lay off 18 

### workers. So we’re still not recovered from that. 19 

### Moffat County has lost several citizens that had 20 

### to move away. Last I knew, we had two hundred 21 

### homes for sale, which doesn’t sound like much in 2225

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### Denver, but in our area two hundred homes for 1 

### sale is quite a lot. 2 

### Our labor participation rate is 70.9 3 

### percent. So we have people who have given up 4 

### looking for work. And quite frankly, our social 5 

### services department is hammered with people 6 

### needing assistance right now. And we are having 7 

### a lot of trouble with young kids right now too. 8 

### And I think it’s all because of the economic 9 

### stress that their parents are facing. And it’s 10 

### just -- we have got a lot of things going for us 11 

### but we could really use some regulatory help. 12 

### And the war on coal is making a very negative 13 

### impact -- is having a very negative impact on our 14



### area. 15 

### These are jobs. I retired from Craig 16 

### Station as a control room operator when I -- 17 

### after I was elected county commissioner. And I 18 

### worked at Craig Station for thirty-three years. 19 

### And when I left I was making 95,000.00 a year 20 

### plus benefits. And these jobs, they’re not going 21 

### to -- I just don’t see how we can replace those 2226

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### jobs. You know, a service sector job isn’t going 1 

### to -- a service sector job would be a third of 2 

### the salary of a power plant job or a coal mine 3 

### job. And there’s just -- there’s no replacement. 4 

### I just -- I would ask the EPA to rethink things. 5 

### And keep in mind that the well-being and 6 

### livelihoods of real people, real Americans with 7 

### real jobs and mortgages and kids that are going 8 

### to be going to college -- you know, their lives 9 

### are hanging in balance here. So I just wanted to 10 

### share that with you. Thanks. 11 

### MR. BECK: Good morning. My name is Ray 12 

### Beck, last name is B-E-C-K. I am the Mayor of 13 

### Craig, Colorado. Our community is extremely 14 

### concerned about the implementation of the Clean 15 

### Power Plan, whether it is implemented under the 16 

### state plan or a Federal Implementation Plan. We 17 

### are fortunate to have a major power plant and 18 

### coal mine which provides a strong economic base 19 

### for our community. 20 

### The Tri-State coal fired power in Craig, 21 

### Colorado employs 306 people accounting for seven 2227

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### percent of the jobs in Moffat County. Annual 1 

### planned maintenance outages bring in another two 2 

### hundred to four hundred transitory workers per 3 

### project. The payroll and benefits for the 306 4 

### employees is about 33.9 million per year, 5 

### accounting for nearly seventeen percent of the 6 

### wages and benefits generated annually in Moffat 7 

### County. Of that 33.9 million, approximately 28.2 8 

### million is paid directly to individuals and 9 

### organizations in the region. 10 

### The Craig Station tops 276 million 11 

### annually in direct spending with about 214 12 

### million of that being spent at the local level. 13 

### Purchases of capital equipment, spare and 14 

### replacement parts and other personal property 15 

### total 17.1 million per year or 2.2 million with 16 

### local businesses and venders in Craig and Moffat 17 

### County. The Union Pacific Railroad delivers coal 18 

### daily to the power plant and those freight 19 

### expenses associated with the delivery of coal 20 

### total 8.7 million on an annual basis. These 21 

### transactions are entirely within Moffat County. 2228

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### Tri-State is Moffat County’s leading 1 

### taxpayer and by itself accounts for 19.1 percent 2 

### of the county’s tax base. Using a very 3 

### conservative economic multiplier of 2.44, the 4 

### estimated indirect economic impacts of local 5 

### expenditures by the 306 employees is equivalent 6 

### to 748 jobs throughout Craig and Moffat County. 7 

### Under Clean Power Plan, our community 8 

### would lose the current jobs from the power plant 9 

### and mine and utility customers would lose the 10 

### power produced. We could not replace those lost 11 

### jobs and revenues in our community with renewable 12 

### power. Craig Station provides approximately 1300 13 

### megawatts of base load power to the grid. It 14 

### would be difficult, if not impossible, to replace 15 

### that with wind power generated in Moffat County 16 

### if you consider the land area that is required. 17 

### As a comparison, the Shepherd’s Farm 18 

### facility in Oregon requires 32,000 acres to 19 

### produce 750 megawatts of non-base load 20 

### electricity. And that is one of the largest wind 21 

### farms in the country. Other constraints here 2229

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### include the terrain, additional power lines 1 

### required, and the fact that we are in sage grouse 2 

### habitat, which could restrict the land impact. 3 

### And even assuming renewable generation could be 4 

### sited in our community once the construction is 5 

### completed most of the newly created renewable 6 

### jobs go away. 7 

### Moffat County is the second largest 8 

### county in Colorado in land mass. And we are an 9 

### extraction county that depends on the energy 10 

### industry to support our local economy and our 11 

### quality way of life. Craig and Moffat County are 12 

### the epicenter of outside sources attacking our 13 

### quality way of life and the economy through the 14 

### overreaching of rules and regulations. The Clean 15 

### Power Plan, whether implemented either by the 16 

### state or the federal government, will cripple the 17 

### county to the point that we will see a smaller 18 

### tax base that pays for goods and services and we 19 

### will see families and businesses leaving our 20 

### community. It will then be difficult to recover 21 

### from this type of devastation. It could take 2230

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### years and even up to decades to recover. 1 

### Everyone wants to see a better 2 

### environment with clear skies and clean air to 3 

### breathe. And we already have that here in 4 

### Northwest Colorado through the efforts of the 5 

### industry, including coal. With ever-increasing 6 

### air quality standards and now the requirement to 7 

### reduce CO2 emissions thirty-two percent by 2030, 8 

### the electric rates will rise significantly. 9 

### Higher electricity costs will hurt any new 10 

### business we might attract, in addition to the 11 

### people who live in Colorado, Northwest Colorado. 12 

### The Craig Station uses coal that is low 13 

### in sulfur and mercury, which has benefitted the 14 

### environment. The Craig power plant has gone 15 

### above and beyond mitigating its emissions over 16 

### the years by adding controls and upgrading its 17 

### operation. Even though the stated purpose of the 18 

### Clean Power Plan is to reduce greenhouse gas 19 

### emissions and help prevent climate change, the 20 

### Clean Power Plan under the 111(d) rule will have 21 

### no impact. It will only reduce atmospheric CO2 2231

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### concentrations by 0.2 percent, decrease global 1 

### average temperature by 0.01 degree or 1/100of one 2 

### degree, and reduce sea level rise by 0.20 3 

### millimeter, the thickness of two sheets of paper. 4 

### Whether the 111(d) rules are implemented 5 

### through the state plan or the federal implemented 6 

### plan, they will be devastating -- this will be 7 

### devastating to Craig, Colorado and Moffat County. 8 

### Thank you for your time. 9 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. John Graves 10 

### and Katie Dittelberger. I’m sure I mangled that 11 

### and I apologize. 12 

### MR. GRAVES: Good morning. My name is 13 

### John Graves and I am the environmental manager 14 

### for Minnkota Power Cooperative. We are a 15 

### regional GNT cooperative. We serve eleven member 16 

### owned co-ops. We have -- we operate two coal 17 

### fired units, one rated to produce about 250 18 

### megawatts and the other producing 455 megawatts. 19 

### We also are the operating agent for Northern 20 

### Municipal Power Agency, which is comprised of 21 

### twelve municipalities. And they own thirty 2232

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### percent of another coal fired station. 1 

### I hope to briefly address some of the 2 

### items that the EPA had requested comment on, 3 

### which was a significant list that you are seeking 4


### comment on. 5 

### Some of them are pretty basic, such as 6 

### should the allowance system be on metric tons or 7 

### short tons, that type of thing. And as with Acid 8 

### Rain rules, we certainly feel the easiest and 9 

### simplest way is that one allowance should be one 10 

### short -- represent one short ton of CO2. 11 

### They also requested comment on what the 12 

### allowance allocation should be based upon, 13 

### whether it should be an average of the years 2010 14 

### through 2012. In general, we believe that that 15 

### is good. However, we think that because power 16 

### plants -- various things happen to them, 17 

### unfortunately, from time to time. They may have 18 

### a major outage during that period of time, that 19 

### it would be better to select the two high years 20 

### out of that three year time frame and base the 21 

### allowance allocation on that. 2233

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### And states should have the option of 1 

### distributing all of those allowances without the 2 

### use of the various set-asides that the EPA is 3 

### considering. And under the Federal plan, this 4 

### should be an option for all of the sources should 5 

### the states desire it. 6 

### One other item that the -- that is 7 

### perplexed and that the EPA had requested comment 8


### on was whether or not allowances should have a -- 9 

### basically a two year life span after a facility 10 

### is shut down. We believe that they -- once 11 

### allowances are issued, that they should be issued 12 

### to a facility in perpetuity. Those allowances 13 

### should remain with that facility. This includes 14 

### EGUs which may be put into long term coal 15 

### storage. Units that are modified or 16 

### reconstructed should be treated just like a 17 

### retired unit from an allowance perspective. 18 

### The EPA has indicated they are addressing 19 

### the remaining useful life of the plants in part 20 

### by considering trading. However, not issuing 21 

### allowances to an EGU after two years restricts 2234

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### that allowance trading. Additionally, it’s at 1 

### this point in time conjecture as to how strong an 2 

### allowance trading market will be. The EPA in 3 

### this rule and other -- the clean -- the original 4 

### Clean Power Plan Rule had indicated they 5 

### anticipate a very robust trading market there. 6 

### They base the IPM model that was utilized also 7 

### was counting on there being a robust trading 8 

### market. However, at this point in time that is 9 

### conjecture. The regulations however are going to 10 

### be issued now. So the regulations should take 11 

### into account that that trading market may not be 12 

### as robust, and in fact may be limited. 13 

### Obviously allowances should be able to be 14 

### traded not only regionally but nationwide. 15 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. You 16 

### can submit the rest of your comments. 17 

### MR. GRAVES: These are just my notes so I 18


### -- sorry. 19 

### MS. NOONAN: No, that’s fine. Thank you. 20


### Go ahead. 21 

### MR. GRAVES: We will be submitting 2235

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### written comments. 1 

### MS. NOONAN: If you could stay right 2 

### there, that’s great. Thank you. 3 

### MS. DITTELBERGER: Hi, my name is Katie 4 

### Dittelberger and I am an associate attorney at 5 

### Earth Justice here in the Rocky Mountain office. 6 

### MS. NOONAN: Can you spell your name? 7 

### MS. DITTELBERGER: Sure. K-A-T-I-E, 8 

### Dittelberger, D-I-T-T-E-L-B-E-R-G-E-R. 9 

### You will have to forgive me for looking 10 

### down at my phone for part of this, I just 11 

### received some notes from our D.C. office this 12 

### morning. 13 

### So first of all we wanted to thank EPA 14 

### for promulgating the Clean Power Plan, which is a 15 

### good step in the right direction towards reducing 16 

### carbon emissions from this sector of our economy. 17 

### The EPA should continue to do everything 18 

### in its power to work to reduce the worst effects 19 

### of climate change for this generation, and future 20 

### generations, and the health of our entire planet. 21 

### And we appreciate you taking this good step. 2236

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### We also wanted to thank EPA for creating 1 

### a plan that allows states maximum flexibility so 2 

### that each individual state can choose how to 3 

### implement carbon reductions in a way that makes 4 

### sense for the economy in that state. 5 

### However, some states have indicated that 6 

### they may choose to forego this opportunity to 7 

### create customized state specific plans and other 8 

### states may not submit acceptable plans. Hence the 9 

### necessity of the present Federal Implementation 10 

### Plan which acts as both a model for states to 11 

### help them create their plans moving forward and 12 

### as a backstop for states that refuse to submit 13 

### plans or that submit unacceptable plans. 14 

### It is important to note that the EPA is 15 

### required to ensure that the model FIP and the 16 

### resulting state FIPs comply with executive order 17 

### 12898 on environmental justice. And specifically 18 

### EPA should comply with the following criteria. 19 

### And I will elaborate about one of them. 20 

### First, EPA must ensure that the FIP 21 

### provides protections and benefits for minority 2237

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### low income and indigenous communities that 1 

### unfortunately oftentimes experience the worst 2 

### impacts of pollution from fossil fuels, and may 3 

### also experience the worst impacts of climate 4 

### change. 5 

### Number two, EPA should refuse to give 6 

### away allowances to heavily polluting sources that 7 

### are often cited in Environmental Justice 8



### concerns. 9 

### Number three -- and I will elaborate on 10 

### this one if I have a little time. EPA should 11 

### exclude waste incineration and biomass 12 

### incineration renewable incentives because per 13 

### unit of energy, burning waste and biomass 14 

### actually releases more carbon than burning coal. 15 

### Additionally, these facilities are often located 16 

### near underprivileged communities and therefore 17 

### present environmental justice concerns. And if I 18 

### have time I will elaborate on that one. 19 

### Number four, EPA should maximize 20 

### utilities incentives to invest in energy 21 

### efficiency which lowers household energy bills. 2238

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### And that’s particularly important to low income 1 

### community members. 2 

### Number five, EPA should include an 3 

### enforceable deadline for completion of EPA’s 4 

### proposed assessment of local air quality impacts 5 

### which identifies at risk communities. 6 

### And finally, EPA must require 7 

### consultation with Clean Power Plan environmental 8 

### justice coordinators and the relevant EPA 9 

### regional office on community engagement, 10 

### including an opportunity for comment on 11 

### environmental justice impacts. 12 

### Do I have another minute or so? 13 

### MS. NOONAN: A minute-and-a-half. 14 

### MS. DITTELBERGER: Great. Regarding the 15 

### biomass and waste incineration, even if EPA could 16 

### rationally conclude that over the long term 17 

### burning a few specific types of biomass can under 18 

### certain circumstances result in fewer carbon 19 

### emissions than burning fossil fuels, EPA cannot 20 

### allow the inclusion of biomass as an eligible 21 

### compliance measure in the FIP without providing 2239

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### notice of the agencies’ intended approach to 1 

### identifying “qualified biomass feedstocks.” 2 

### The proposed FIP states that using “some 3 

### kinds of biomass may have carbon benefits but 4 

### only if the feedstocks are sourced responsibly 5 

### and attributes of the carbon cycle related to the 6 

### biomass feedstock are then taken into account.” 7 

### But in the proposed FIP, EPA has not suggested a 8 

### specific method for how to assess these two 9 

### factors. The fact that the agency has not been 10 

### able to identify a concrete approach for this 11 

### important determination is a strong indicator 12 

### that the inclusion of biomass derived fuels as a 13 

### compliance strategy is not defensible. But more 14 

### immediately, finalizing an FIP that allows the 15 

### use of qualified biomass without proposing a 16 

### specific approach for how the agency could 17 

### determine which biomass feedstocks qualify and 18 

### under what circumstances further cements the 19 

### unjustified conclusion that biomass burning has a 20 

### role to play in reducing carbon emissions. And 21 

### thank you very much. 2240

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### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. 1 

### All right. We are going to take a ten 2 

### minute break and then we will return at five of. 3 

### (Whereupon, at 9:43 a.m. short recess was 4 

### taken.) 5 

### 9:55 a.m. 6


### MS. NOONAN: Jeff Brown. 7 

### MR. BROWN: I’m Jeff Brown, spelled J-E8 

### F-F, B-R-O-W-N. 9 

### So good morning. I’m Jeff Brown from 10 

### Pacific Gas and Electric Company. PG&E has 11 

### combined natural gas and electric utility that 12 

### provides energy to 15 million Californians. We 13 

### currently have a very clean electricity portfolio 14 

### with more than fifty percent of our electricity 15 

### coming from greenhouse gas emissions-free 16 

### resources, including biomass, wind, solar, 17 

### geothermal, nuclear, and the country’s largest 18 

### investor-owned hydropower system. 19 

### PG&E operates in a state that has already 20 

### adopted several statutory and regulatory 21 

### initiatives to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 2241

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### from the electric power sector. These programs 1 

### which PG&E has supported and played an integral 2 

### role in implementing are working successfully. 3 

### We have a resource “loading order” that requires 4 

### us to meet customer demand through cost-effective 5 

### energy efficiency and demand response followed by 6 

### renewables and non-emitting resources, with the 7 

### remainder of demand met by highly efficient 8 

### natural gas power plants. We also have a thirty9 

### three percent by 2030 and fifty percent by 2030 10


### renewable standard. 11 

### Finally, California has enacted and is 12 

### implementing AB 32, a comprehensive economy-wide 13 

### GHG emissions law designed to reduce statewide 14 

### emissions to 1990 levels by 2020. A key policy 15 

### for achieving this emission goal is the mass16 

### based emission budget trading program that has 17 

### been operating successfully in California since 18 

### 2013. This program provides consistent 19 

### incentives for GHG reduction across the 20 

### California economy, supports the achievement of 21 

### the state’s GHG emissions goal, and affords 2242

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### significant flexibility in where, when, and how 1


### abatement occurs. 2 

### With this background and experience in 3 

### mind, we would like to address four issues raised 4 

### in the proposal. 5 

### First, we support EPA’s proposal to 6 

### finalize a single approach for the federal plan. 7 

### We agree that the broader trading allowed by a 8 

### single approach is likely to lower total 9 

### compliance costs. A consistent approach is also 10 

### likely to produce more efficient electric market 11


### outcomes. 12 

### We support the mass-based option as the 13 

### single approach under the Federal plan. 14 

### Regulated entities, states, and EPA have 15 

### significant experience with mass-based trading 16 

### approaches in California and the RGGI states, as 17 

### well as with other criteria pollutant programs 18 

### such as the Acid Rain Program. These programs 19 

### are administratively simpler to implement than 20 

### rate-based alternatives and have performed well. 21 

### Mass-based programs are also likely to cost less 2243

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### to achieve similar levels of emissions 1 

### performance, as EPA’s own analysis suggests. 2 

### Second, we support EPA’s proposal to 3 

### establish the Federal plan programs as “trading 4 

### ready”, available to trade with other states that 5 

### are similarly designated “trading ready”. We 6 

### believe that allowing for allowance trading 7 

### across state lines holds significant promise as a 8 

### means of reducing compliance costs. Such trading 9 

### would also result in a uniform GHG price across 10 

### participating states, which will promote 11 

### efficient investment and dispatch in power 12


### markets. 13 

### PG&E has conducted an initial modeling 14 

### analysis with ICF using the IPM model to explore 15 

### potential CPP compliance approaches. Our 16 

### analysis finds that broadening the scope of 17 

### allowance trading under the CPP significantly 18 

### reduces compliance costs. 19 

### As for EPA’s proposed conditions for 20 

### being approved as “trading ready” with the 21 

### Federal plan, we encourage EPA to work with 2244

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### California’s Air Resources Board to ensure that 1 

### there is a clear pathway for California to 2 

### qualify as “trading ready” with the Federal plan. 3 

### We note that several technical areas such as the 4 

### type of compliance instruments and tracking 5 

### systems could raise barriers to California’s 6 

### participation in a broader trading program. We 7 

### encourage EPA to finalize a Federal plan that 8 

### resolves these technical issues in a way that 9 

### provides California the flexibility to 10 

### participate in broad allowance trading. 11 

### Third, we agree with EPA that mass-based 12 

### existing-only programs would create incentives 13 

### for leakage to new sources that would not be 14 

### present under the rate-based program. We believe 15 

### there is both an emissions and a level playing 16 

### field interest in preventing such leakage. We’d 17 

### like to see additional analysis on the 18 

### effectiveness of the proposed output-based set19 

### asides at addressing emissions leakage to new 20 

### sources under plan designs that only cover 21 

### existing sources. In particular, we encourage 2245

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### exploration of larger leakage mitigation set1 

### asides. 2 

### Finally, we encourage EPA to review 3 

### California’s experience allocating allowances in 4 

### the power sector under AB 32 as we believe it is 5 

### a useful model for the allocation of the 6 

### remaining allowances not used for early action or 7 

### leakage mitigation. In particular, allocation to 8 

### rate-regulated entities is critical to ensuring 9 

### that free allowances are exclusively used for 10 

### electric customer benefit. As part of transition 11 

### assistance, the Air Resources Board has allocated 12 

### allowances to rate-regulated electric utilities 13 

### in California for the benefit of their customers. 14


### The return to customers of the value of the 15 

### allocation is overseen by the utility regulator 16 

### or the local governing board for POUs. For the 17 

### investor owned utilities overseen by the CPUC, 18 

### this return has mostly taken the form of a 19 

### biannual bill credit for residential customers. 20 

### So thank you for the opportunity to 21 

### provide these comments. PG&E looks forward to 2246

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### working with EPA, the State of California and 1 

### concerned stakeholders to develop a flexible and 2 

### cost-effective GHG reduction program that 3 

### achieves meaningful GHG reductions nationwide. 4 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Up next we have 5 

### Ann Livingston and Anna McDevitt. 6 

### MS. MCDEVITT: Thank you so much. My 7 

### name is Anna McDevitt. I am a campaign organizer 8 

### with Environment Colorado, I run our climate work 9 

### in the State of Colorado. 10 

### So first I just want to say thank you so 11 

### much for having these hearings and listening to 12 

### the public on these issues. I want to thank the 13 

### Obama Administration and the President and the 14 

### EPA for the Clean Power Plan. Power plants are 15 

### the biggest source of carbon pollution in our 16 

### country, contributing forty percent of our global 17 

### warming pollution. So this is a big step 18 

### forward. And Environment Colorado, we are very 19 

### excited about it. 20 

### So I just wanted to come to share a 21 

### little bit about the work that I have done for 2247

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### the last year-and-a-half, listening to Colorado’s 1 

### citizens about why they want to see our power 2 

### plants cleaned up. You know, some of my biggest 3 

### highlights I have are meeting with farmers who 4 

### told me that because of the impacts of global 5 

### warming, they no longer can count on a specific 6 

### time of year that they can grow their -- start 7 

### planting their tomatoes. You know, they have 8 

### been doing it the same way for decades. And in 9 

### the last couple of years, they can’t count on it 10 

### anymore. And scientists have linked that to 11 

### global warming. 12 

### You know, the residents of Pinewood 13 

### Springs and Lyons that I have met with who were 14 

### devastated by the historic flooding in 2013, 15 

### floods that scientists have said will only get 16 

### worse, more extreme and more frequent due to 17 

### climate change. It’s no longer going to be a one 18 

### hundred year flood. And moms who are concerned 19 

### about their children’s future. You know, we have 20 

### worked with Moms Clean Air Force and neighborhood 21 

### family groups who have said they just don’t know 2248

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### what they can expect for their children when it 1 

### comes to the environment that they love here in 2 

### Colorado, that they have grown up with or the air 3 

### -- the clean air that they have known in 4 

### Colorado. That might not be the case if we 5 

### don’t, you know, cut carbon pollution rapidly and 6 

### responsively across the country. And so those 7 

### are some of the important stories that I wanted 8 

### to share. And then I think that on top of the 9 

### stories it’s just no surprise that, you know, 10 

### global warming is happening. The scientists are 11 

### showing it, that we have got wild fires happening 12 

### more frequently in the state, we can expect less 13 

### snow melt, but at the same time we can expect 14 

### when we do have a lot of snowfall for it to be 15 

### more extreme. You know, to the point where it 16 

### might be a weather related disaster where we 17 

### don’t have the resources to make sure that people 18 

### are safe when that happens. 19 

### And so we at Environment Colorado want to 20 

### make sure that we are doing everything possible 21 

### to clean up power plants. And we are excited 2249

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### about the opportunity to do so. You know, in the 1 

### State of Colorado we certainly have the 2 

### technology to move forward with renewable energy 3 

### sources. It’s an economic opportunity really. 4 

### Even just last year across the country, there 5 

### were over 173,000 jobs in the solar industry. 6 

### And, you know, with a plan like this with really 7 

### good strong clean energy incentives, we can 8 

### expect that to look even better if we move 9 

### forward swiftly with something like the Clean 10 

### Power Plan with a really strong Federal 11 

### Implementation Plan as well. 12 

### You know, I recently learned that in 13 

### Colorado we have -- we have the solar potential 14 

### to power the state 362 times over. And I think 15 

### that that’s just an amazing example of the things 16 

### that are in place to push forward the Clean Power 17 

### Plan -- the reasons that we should be moving 18 

### forward with something that has really strong 19 

### clean energy incentives. 20 

### So that said, I want to once again thank 21 

### you all for these hearings. I have been so 2250

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### excited to hear hundreds of Coloradians from 1 

### across the state come in to talk about why they 2 

### want to see power plants cleaned up. And before 3 

### I just wrap it up, I want to share -- we have 4 

### coalition partners across the state in mountain 5 

### towns that unfortunately weren’t able to make it 6 

### today, conservation groups and solar energy 7 

### businesses who are talking to the media and the 8 

### reporters up there about why they want to see 9 

### power plants cleaned up. So hopefully you can 10


### follow some of those news sources to see what 11 

### those folks are saying about these hearings that 12 

### they unfortunately weren’t able to make. But I 13 

### know that we have health professionals and clean 14 

### energy businesses, small businesses and all sorts 15 

### of constituents across the State of Colorado who 16 

### are excited to see this pushed forward swiftly. 17 

### So thanks again for the opportunity to 18 

### speak and I appreciate your time. 19 

### COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your last 20


### name? 21 

### MS. MCDEVITT: Yes. It’s McDevitt, M-C- 2251

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### D-E-V-I-T-T. Thank you. 1 

### MS. LIVINGSTON: Good morning. My name 2 

### is Ann Livingston and I am the program manager 3 

### for state and local engagement at the Southwest 4 

### Energy Efficiency Project. SWEEP is one of the 5 

### six non-profit REEOs, or Regional Energy 6 

### Efficiency Organizations, and we support 7 

### efficiency efforts in Arizona, Colorado, New 8 

### Mexico, Nevada, Utah and Wyoming. 9 

### First of all, thank you for the 10 

### opportunity to comment on the Proposed Federal 11 

### plan and Model Trading Rules today. 12 

### We agree that it makes sense to have a 13 

### Federal plan framework to support compliance in 14 

### the event that a state decides not to submit a 15 

### plan or fails to submit an acceptable plan. 16 

### However, we are concerned with the lack of 17 

### support for energy efficiency within the Federal 18 

### plan and, by extension, how that impacts FIP 19 

### states under the Model Trading Rules. 20 

### The proposed emissions rate-based federal 21 

### plan does not include the ability to utilize 2252

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### emissions rate credits or ERCs for energy 1 

### efficiency measures or programs even with 2 

### appropriate EM&V. This is in contrast to the 3 

### Clean Power Plan final rule which allows ERCs for 4 

### energy efficiency measures or programs, again 5 

### with appropriate EM&V, of course, for states that 6 

### submit an acceptable rate-based plan to the EPA. 7 

### This lack of consistency should be corrected in 8 

### our opinion. The EPA should allow states and 9 

### utilities to obtain ERCs for energy efficiency 10 

### measures and programs even if the state ends up 11 

### with a rate-based compliance plan through the FIP 12


### process. 13 

### Another concern, and not surprisingly, is 14 

### that the proposed mass-based federal plan 15 

### includes emissions allowance set-asides for 16 

### renewable energy generators and for the CEIP, but 17 

### not for energy efficiency in general. If the 18 

### emissions allowance set-aside included in the 19 

### mass-based federal plan could also support energy 20 

### efficiency measures and programs on an ongoing 21 

### basis, we feel that would be a better path. Each 2253

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### FIP state could then be given the authority to 1 

### distribute them to programs and/or measures that 2 

### generate legitimate energy savings. 3 

### Further, as a result of the federal plan 4 

### framework as proposed, the Model Trading Rules do 5 

### not allow ERC trading between states with a state 6 

### developed rate-based plan and states that end up 7 

### with a rate-based plan by way of the FIP process. 8 

### This trading should be allowed, in our opinion, 9 

### as long as the rate-based plans are equivalent. 10 

### For example, EGUs of a particular type have the 11 

### same emissions rate standard in the different 12 

### states. Similarly, if a state has a mass-based 13 

### FIP, they will be precluded from trading energy 14 

### efficiency related allowances with other states. 15 

### Again, we believe this trading should be allowed. 16 

### Finally, the EPA has indicated that it 17 

### will choose only one approach, either a rate18 

### based federal plan or a mass-based federal plan 19 

### for the final FIP. In our view, it would be 20 

### reasonable for the EPA to issue both rate-based 21


### and mass-based FIPs and then allow a state to 2254

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### choose one or the other. Of course, if the state 1


### refuses to do so the EPA should make the 2 

### designation. In this case we would recommend 3 

### that EPA choose the mass-based approach for the 4 

### state given that implementation of this approach 5 

### is simpler and it will be easier to monitor and 6 

### enforce. Similarly, if the EPA chooses to 7 

### support only one compliance path in the final 8 

### Federal plan rulemaking, we believe that path 9


### should be mass-based. 10 

### Thank you for your time and 11 

### consideration. And, hi, Laura. 12 

### MS. NOONAN: Up next we have Catherine 13 

### Collentine. 14 

### MS. COLLENTINE: Good morning. 15 

### MS. NOONAN: Good morning. And can you 16 

### spell your name? 17 

### MS. COLLENTINE: Yes. It’s Catherine, C18 

### A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E, C-O-L-L-E-N-T-I-N-E. 19 

### So as you heard, my name is Catherine 20 

### Collentine and I am with the Sierra Club here in 21 

### Denver. I am following a couple of folks that I 2255

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### think make some really sound points. And I am 1 

### sure you guys have throughout the -- yesterday 2 

### and today, heard a number of comments that really 3 

### have laid out the different reasons why not only 4 

### the Clean Power Plan is necessary for us here in 5 

### Colorado, but is necessary across the country, 6 

### and also how it should be implemented, and some 7 

### differences in how it might be implemented right 8 

### now and how it needs to be. So I just want to 9 

### say thank you for giving us the opportunity to 10 

### make these comments here in Colorado, making it 11 

### easy for those of us in Denver to come in person. 12 

### But I know that each and every one of us really 13 

### does represent a whole slew of other folks who 14 

### couldn’t make it in person but do support not 15 

### only the Clean Power Plan, but how it’s 16 

### implemented across Colorado and across other 17


### states. 18 

### It’s a historic step. The Obama 19 

### Administration has taken a couple recently to 20 

### protect our air, our water, our climate and 21 

### communities, but the Clean Power Plan really does 2256

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### stand above a lot of those other ones. It’s an 1 

### important thing for us to move forward and it’s 2 

### important that we do it right. 3 

### The Clean Power Plan has built upon a 4 

### strong legal foundation that was laid out under 5 

### the Clean Air Act. And I think that focusing on 6 

### state specific control plans that tailor to local 7 

### conditions is a very important piece of this. 8 

### For too long fossil-fueled fired power plants 9 

### have been a large emitter, a large source of 10 

### greenhouse gases and a major contributor to 11 

### climate change. And the carbon emissions from 12 

### those power plants represent forty percent of the 13 

### total CO2 emissions in the U.S. so we know that 14 

### that’s a significant emitter. And you guys were 15 

### right to directly target those emissions in these 16 

### plans. 17 

### The toxic air pollutants that cause 18 

### health problems across Colorado cause health 19 

### problems elsewhere, including asthma, upper 20 

### respiratory and heart diseases. Things that we 21 

### have seen in our friends, in our family and 2257

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### communities across the country. And things that 1 

### as an employee of an environmental organization, 2 

### we hear stories about far too often. And we hear 3 

### about how they impact day to day life. And 4 

### that’s not something we can trade for energy when 5 

### we have the technology that we just heard about 6


### from renewables and from other sources that would 7 

### not cause these problems. It’s time to move in 8 

### that direction. 9 

### Additionally, the impacts of climate 10 

### change are displacing families around the world. 11 

### There are children who are suffering from poor 12 

### air quality. And the only way that we can fix 13 

### this is with strong and sweeping regulations like 14 

### the Clean Power Plan with swift and effective 15 

### implementation in states across the country. 16 

### I moved out to Colorado to enjoy all the 17 

### great outdoors has to offer, and I’m sure I’m not 18 

### the first one to say that. I know that the Clean 19 

### Power Plan is one of the necessary steps that 20 

### need to be taken in order to be sure that I’m not 21 

### the last person that gets to do that. We enjoy 2258

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### hiking the scenic vistas that are not marred by 1 

### smog or cause us to huff up the slope because of 2 

### air pollution. I prefer it’s because I haven’t 3 

### been outside in too many weeks and need to get 4 

### back in shape. And skiing on snow that fell from 5 

### the sky because we still have winters that we can 6 

### count on to drop the snow that we have seen for 7 

### centuries here in the Rocky Mountains. 8 

### We need clean air and a stable climate in 9 

### order to enjoy the recreation opportunities in 10 

### the state. And the Clean Power Plan can help us 11 

### move beyond dirty fossil-fuel energy sources to 12 

### use the technology that we already have and that 13 

### we have developed and that we will continue to 14 

### develop and refine to progress towards cleaner 15 

### energy more quickly. 16 

### And clean energy is not just in my 17 

### interests because I like to go skiing, or in our 18 

### greater interest to slow climate change emissions 19 

### and protect public health, but it also makes 20 

### economic sense. Just this week a report came out 21 

### showing that many of the large philanthropic 2259

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### organizations, including the Gates Foundation and 1 

### other organizations, would have been better off 2 

### in the last three years alone investing in clean 3 

### energy instead of dirty fossil fuels. And when I 4 

### say better off, I mean by billions of dollars 5 

### that could have gone towards their missions. That 6 

### shows a significance that clean energy has, it’s 7 

### a smart investment for our future and it’s smart 8 

### for the Obama Administration, for the federal 9 

### government, and for our taxpayer dollars to be 10 

### spent moving us in that direction. The returns 11 

### will come back over time. Clean energy also 12 

### creates better paying and more sustainable jobs 13 

### to support our growing economy. By EPA’s own 14 

### estimates, the Clean Power Plan would deliver 15 

### benefits of up to 93 billion dollars by 2030. 16 

### Here in Colorado we know that our 17 

### governor is up to the task of creating and 18 

### implementing a state plan. And across the country 19


### states need to be held to that same standard. 20 

### With the technical and policy guidance that EPA 21 

### provides in order to ensure that a Federal plan 2260

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### is strong, the EPA needs to ensure that carbon 1 

### pollutions standards in a model plan approve 2 

### achieve pollution reductions that actually go 3 

### further than what the Clean Power Plan promises. 4 

### Okay. I will wrap up there. And I just 5 

### want to say thank you very much for allowing me 6 

### to comment today. I really appreciate the 7 

### opportunity. 8 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you so much. We are 9 

### going to take a recess until 10:30 and then we 10 

### will reconvene at that time. 11 

### (Whereupon, at 10:16 a.m. a short recess 12 

### was taken, to reconvene at 10:30 a.m.) 13 

### 10:30 a.m. 14 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you everyone. Let’s 15 

### go ahead and continue on with the hearing. Up 16 

### next we have Mike Cashin and Doug Fitzgerald. 17


### MR. CASHIN: Hello. 18 

### MS. NOONAN: If you could spell your 19


### name? 20 

### MR. CASHIN: Sure. My name is 21 

### Michael Cashin, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, C-A-S-H-I-N. 2261

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### Am I ready to go? 1


### MS. NOONAN: Yes. 2 

### MR. CASHIN: Okay. Again, my name 3 

### is Mike Cashin and I am the Environmental 4 

### Policy Advisor for Minnesota Power ALLETE. 5 

### And Minnesota Power is a small 6 

### investor owned utility located -- 7 

### headquartered in Duluth, Minnesota. We serve 8 

### some of the largest industrial customers in 9 

### the nation. The delivery of reliable, 10 

### affordable and environmentally responsible 11 

### energy services to our customers is one of 12 

### our priorities. We also are concerned that 13 

### because we serve an energy intensive 14 

### industrial customer base that has to compete 15 

### internationally, that we keep costs 16 

### affordable. Especially when it comes to 17 

### matters where international competitiveness 18 

### are in play like it could be with the Clean 19


### Power Plan. 20 

### Moving along, I know that Minnesota 21 

### has been a progressive state regarding 2262

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### environmental matters. We have been 1 

### facilitating the 2007 Next Generation Energy 2 

### Act that explicitly deals with greenhouse gas 3 

### emissions. And our company, Minnesota Power, 4 

### working with Integrated Resource Plan Process 5 

### has our Energy Forward program that we 6 

### created. And that is a process that will 7 

### help us switch from 95 percent coal and five 8 

### percent renewables, as we were in 2005, to a 9 

### third of a third of a third mix of 10 

### renewables, natural gas and coal. 11 

### The timing for that goes on through 12 

### the 2030 time frame, similar to the Clean 13 

### Power Plan. Consequently, we are concerned - 14 

### - this is getting loud -- 15 

### MS. NOONAN: It is. Try holding it 16 

### a little further out. 17 

### MR. CASHIN: Consequently -- is that 18


### better? 19


### MS. NOONAN: That’s better. Thank 20


### you. 21 

### MR. CASHIN: Consequently, we are 2263

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### concerned that the timing of our activities 1 

### in Minnesota and the Clean Power Plan are not 2 

### aligning. And we are concerned about the 3 

### kind of impacts that that would have along 4 

### with how we have made early deployments 5 

### investments. We have been an “early action” 6


### state and we want to make sure that those 7 

### things count. 8 

### And consequently, we want to call 9 

### our on environmental performance, economic 10 

### impacts, operation of the whole cell 11 

### electricity markets and electric grid 12 

### performance and reliability are all factors 13 

### that must be considered as part of the Clean 14 

### Power Plan. It might seem obvious, but 15 

### because of the way the Clean Power Plan is 16 

### set up with its best system in emissions 17 

### reductions approach, all of those areas are 18 

### affected. We will be providing more detail 19 

### and comments in the period as to why we are 20 

### concerned that there are more impacts in 21 

### those regimes than what EPA recognizes in 2264

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### some of their modeling and VSR analysis. 1 

### We are also very concerned about the 2 

### local economic and employment impacts and 3 

### think those need to be recognized. And I 4 

### think that there tends to be an averaging 5 

### “holistic” look at Clean Power Plan economic 6 

### assessment that is insensitive to the jobs 7 

### impacts for mining and the communities 8 

### served. There’s tens of thousands of jobs in 9 

### that area that are based on delivery of 10 

### fossil-fuels, iron ore, wood products and 11 

### other things that are going to be affected by 12


### the Clean Power Plan. 13 

### Now, as far as -- oh, there we go, 14 

### now it stopped. A rate versus mass decision 15 

### should not be compelled by what goes on in 16 

### other states of EPA regulatory choices. And 17 

### I emphasize this because in a sense that is 18 

### what EPA has set up in the protocol right now 19 

### and that we are being encouraged to 20 

### facilitate and coordinate with other states 21 

### as can be done, but we are finding very much 2265

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### so that our local energy infrastructure and 1 

### jobs dynamics is unique and we need to have 2


### answers on what the other states would be 3 

### doing in a way that they are not able to 4 

### provide at this time. It puts us in an 5 

### uncertainty period. And consequently while it 6 

### might look better for us to perhaps consider 7 

### a rate-based, others going with mass-based, 8 

### that level of uncertainty at this stage of 9 

### the game approaching the final rule 10 

### implementation is a concern for us as it 11


### would affect customer cost. 12 

### We note that we were an “early 13 

### action” state and that we are very much 14 

### wanting to have the measures that we did 15 

### count as we go forward into the Clean Power 16


### Plan. We are concerned that the federal 17 

### implementation plan doesn’t provide directly 18 

### for energy efficiency. It’s kind of soft on 19 

### how you would treat biomass. And yet we know 20 

### that if there is a glitch in the state 21 

### implementation plan acceptance, which we have 2266

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### -- might have those components included, we 1


### would be fault of that. 2 

### So with that said I just wanted to 3 

### emphasize how it is important to address 4 

### cross border issues. That we make sure that 5 

### as we get involved, a third of our power in 6 

### Minnesota from North Dakota and in turn a 7 

### good portion goes from there, that the plans 8 

### are reasonably coordinated. And we emphasize 9 

### that historic emissions should be preserved 10 

### as a basis for doing allowance allocations. 11 

### Thank you. 12 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 13 

### MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. My name 14 

### is Doug Fitzgerald. D-O-U-G, F-I-T-Z-G-E-R15


### A-L-D. 16 

### And I am here from Congressman Scott 17 

### Tipton’s Office. And he represents the 3rd 18 

### Congressional District of Colorado which 19 

### encompasses the western slope. San Luis 20 

### Valley, the City of Alamosa is in that area 21 

### and it goes over to the Grant Ranch which 2267

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### includes Pueblo County. 1 

### Good morning and thank you for the 2 

### opportunity to provide some remarks on this 3 

### issue on behalf of Congressman Tipton. 4 

### The Environmental Protection Agency 5 

### is seeking feedback on the proposed Federal 6 

### plan to implement greenhouse gas emissions 7 

### reductions as outlined in the Clean Power 8 

### Plan which would be used by states that do 9 

### not submit an EPA approved plan or which 10 

### could be used as a template by the states to 11 

### develop their plans. About half of the 12 

### states have made it abundantly clear what 13 

### they think of the proposal. They have filed 14 

### suit to block it. 15 

### I too, see serious problems with the 16 

### EPA’s efforts. This so-called Clean Power 17 

### Plan will achieve at best questionably 18 

### positive results, is likely entirely 19 

### unnecessary and will undoubtedly result in 20 

### significant negative economic impacts. 21 

### Discussions on climate change aside, 2268

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### the Clean Power Plan suffers from one of the 1 

### same fundamental flaws as previous efforts to 2 

### cut greenhouse gas emissions. What benefit 3 

### is it for the United States to self-impose 4 

### emission reductions if other nations refuse 5 

### to do so? Even among those who have 6 

### committed to reduce emissions, many have 7 

### essentially failed. The United States in 8 

### contrast has succeeded, according to the 9 

### EPA’s own data. U.S. Greenhouse gas emissions 10 

### overall and measured per capita have 11 

### exhibited a downward trend in the last 12 

### decade, with the latter rate significantly 13 

### below 1990 levels. 14 

### And what will the uncertain benefits 15 

### of the Clean Power Plan cost? EPA estimates 16 

### the cost to be 5.5 to 8.8 billion annually. 17 

### But economists have estimated the amount to 18 

### be much higher, anywhere from 366 billion to 19 

### 479 billion from 2017 to 2031. 20 

### And as the American economy 21 

### struggles forward, one of the few bright 2269

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### spots has been the low cost of energy, which 1 

### has provided some welcome relief to American 2 

### families, helps keep costs low for the 3 

### commercial sector, and even prompted 4 

### optimistic discussions about on-shoring jobs 5 

### on sectors that have been in decline, 6 

### specifically manufacturing. But just in 7 

### time, here comes the Clean Power Plan to help 8 

### squash that optimism. 9 

### Unquestionably the energy sector 10 

### that is squarely in the EPA’s sight is coal. 11 

### Coal-fired generation accounts for almost 12 

### forty percent of America’s energy portfolio. 13 

### It is inexpensive and it is vital for the 14 

### baseload power generation. But those 15 

### clamoring for this rule, if successful in 16 

### making coal an infeasible choice for power 17 

### generation, don’t exactly have a plan for 18 

### making up that gap. 19 

### What about natural gas? The vast 20 

### majority of our natural gas supply is a 21 

### result of tapping into formations that 2270

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### require fracking, which has been demonized at 1


### least to the extent of coal. How about 2 

### nuclear generation? Same story. Wind and 3 

### solar, turbines and solar require the use of 4 

### minerals that must be mined. Ask our friends 5 

### in the mining industry how easy it has been 6 

### to permit hard rock mines in recent memory. 7 

### Hydropower often runs into objections about 8 

### ecological impacts. The list goes on. 9 

### My point is not to identify the 10 

### faults in the form of power generation, far 11 

### from it. My bill, the planning for American 12 

### Energy Act, recognizes the contributions of 13 

### all of those energy sources and calls for an 14 

### all above energy approach. I simply mean to 15 

### point out the senseless nature of pursuing 16 

### ambiguous goals by unilaterally imposing 17 

### restrictions on our economy which will result 18 

### in real economic hardships. Yes, power 19 

### generation must be done in an environmentally 20 

### sound way, but we have proven time and again 21 

### through American ingenuity the ability to do 2271

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### so without draconian mandates pouring out of 1 

### Washington. 2 

### Individual Americans stand to lose 3 

### their jobs and their families will undergo 4 

### real hardships. Actual communities across 5 

### the nation that rely on these industries will 6 

### be economically rocked. Consumers across the 7 

### board will feel the pinch. And we will all 8 

### watch as the opportunity to attract major 9 

### industrial sectors back to our shores is 10 

### squandered. 11 

### These are not faceless statistics in 12 

### a report. These are real people in 13 

### communities across America and they are tired 14 

### of being repeatedly beaten down by regulation 15 

### after regulation screaming from Washington, 16 

### issued by bureaucrats who either don’t seem 17 

### to understand the harm they are causing or 18 

### simply don’t care. 19 

### Again, thank you for the opportunity 20 

### to provide these remarks today. 21 

### MS. NOONAN: Up next we have Jessica 2272

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### Abell. 1 

### MS. ABELL: Good morning. Reverend 2 

### Jessica Abell, Colorado Interfaith Power and 3 

### Light. Colorado Interfaith Power and Light 4 

### is a movement of interfaith leaders, houses 5 

### of worship and other spiritual communities 6 

### and fellow seekers who claim -- the 7 

### microphone is terrible. I can just project. 8 

### MS. NOONAN: Even if you just leave 9 

### it on the table and that might be -- we have 10 

### no idea what is going on so -- 11 

### MS. ABELL: I got you. Just slowly 12 

### back away from it. All right. 13 

### COURT REPORTER: Can I get your last 14


### name too? 15 

### MS. ABELL: A-B-E-L-L, Abell. 16 

### MS. NOONAN: We apologize. 17


### MS. ABELL: And fellow seekers who 18 

### claim no affiliation. We seek the 19 

### restoration of Creation and its proper use. 20 

### We believe that the Divine, however one may 21 

### experience that, is present in Creation and 2273

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### compels us to act. 1 

### As our very name implies, Colorado 2 

### Interfaith Power and Light has special care 3 

### for power, its generation and distribution, 4 

### and for energy use. You, the U.S. 5 

### Environmental Protection Agency, present for 6 

### comment this plan that model rules for the 7 

### Clean Power Plan. The Clean Power Plan will 8 

### help curb dangerous carbon pollution from new 9 

### and existing power plants for the first time 10 

### in U.S. history. 11 

### I am grateful for the opportunity to 12 

### testify today on behalf of the Colorado 13 

### Interfaith Power and Light, and with support 14 

### for the CPP. I am a Baptist preacher, you 15 

### see, and so I thank you for the pulpit. 16 

### Carbon pollution is the main 17 

### contributor to climate disruption. This 18 

### fuels superstorms, floods, wildfires and 19 

### record drought. Climate disruption and 20 

### carbon pollution threaten our lives. They 21 

### threaten our health, our families, and our 2274

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### communities. 1 

### More often than not, the power 2 

### plants that spew this dangerous carbon 3 

### pollution have a sharply skewed negative 4 

### effect on low-income communities and 5 

### communities of color already suffering from 6 

### the worst effects of toxic pollution, 7 

### including heart attacks, asthma, and 8 

### premature death. 9 

### This disproportional damage is part 10 

### of the sin of environmental injustice and 11 

### power plants have long been at the core of 12 

### industrial pollution. I find it blasphemous 13 

### to use Creation in the dirtiest ways possible 14 

### to fuel our lives. That’s my language as a 15 

### Christian minister, of course, but the 16 

### principle is broad. 17 

### Walk as lightly as possible on the 18 

### Earth. Take everything out that you brought 19 

### in. Clean up after yourselves and take 20 

### responsibility for the cost of consumption. 21 

### I think local projects like Xcel’s 2275

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### Cherokee Generating Station, with its natural 1 

### gas and steam generated power, and the 2 

### growing presence of wind power, show that 3 

### there is some willingness of the part of the 4 

### fossil-fuel industry and the green industry 5 

### to adapt together here in Colorado. This 6 

### Federal Clean Power Plan sets decent metrics 7 

### for curbing carbon pollution, and we at 8 

### Colorado IPL heartily support it. We will 9 

### encourage our federal representatives and 10 

### senators to assent. We will encourage our 11 

### local reactionaries to keep calm and step 12 

### down and work together in collaboration to 13


### heal our Earth. 14 

### I believe that local and regional 15 

### work must be done alongside this new EPA 16 

### Clean Power Plan. In fact, I think we in 17 

### Colorado can do better, can do more to be 18 

### stewards of Creation than is even presented 19 

### here in the Clean Power Plan. But that is 20 

### for us to do. For my part, I again thank you 21 

### for the opportunity to speak today. Peace be 2276

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### with you. 1 

### MS. NOONAN: At this time, is there 2 

### anyone in the audience who has not spoken 3 

### already who would -- has not registered or 4 

### would that would like to speak? 5 

### (No audible response) 6 

### MS. NOONAN: Okay. We are going to 7 

### take a recess until 11:00 o’clock. Thank 8


### you. 9 

### (Whereupon, at 10:46 a.m., a short recess 10 

### was taken, to reconvene at 11:00 a.m.) 11 

### 11:00 a.m. 12 

### MS. NOONAN: Folks, is there anyone 13 

### in here who has not yet registered to speak 14 

### who would like to? Because I think we are 15 

### going to extend the break until 11:15 and 16 

### then we will resume at that time. 17 

### 11:01 a.m. 18 

### (Whereupon, at 11:01 a.m., a short recess was 19 

### taken, to reconvene at 11:15 a.m.) 20 

### 11:15 a.m. 21 

### MS. NOONAN: It is 11:15 and I would 2277

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### like to call up Alec Herr and Mike Cashin for 1 

### Tyler Hamman. Mr. Cashin, we understand that 2


### Mr. Hamman was unable to attend due to 3


### weather. 4 

### MR. CASHIN: He had his flight 5


### cancelled. 6 

### MS. NOONAN: Okay. Mr. Herr, you 7 

### will have five minutes. 8 

### MR. HERR: Okay. 9 

### MS. NOONAN: And can you spell your 10 

### first and last name please? 11 

### MR. HERR: First name is A-L-E-C, 12 

### last name is Herr, H-E-R-R. 13 

### Good morning. My name is Alec Herr 14 

### and I am a member of the Colorado Sierra Club 15 

### and a graduate student at the University of 16 

### Colorado at Boulder. Thank you for this 17 

### opportunity to comment on the Clean Power 18 

### Plan for which I am here to express my 19 

### support. 20 

### Fossil fuel power plants are the 21 

### largest source of greenhouse gases and thus a 2278

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### major contributor to climate change. Carbon 1 

### emissions from power plants represent forty 2 

### percent of the total CO2 emissions in the 3 

### United States and also emit toxic air 4 

### pollutants that contribute to respiratory and 5 

### heart diseases as well as premature deaths. 6 

### Climate change is also a human 7 

### rights issue. Communities across the globe 8 

### are dealing with the devastating impacts, 9 

### from families displaced from their homes due 10 

### to extreme weather events, to our children 11 

### suffering from the health impacts of poor air 12 

### quality. By regulating these plants, the 13 

### Clean Power Plan will lead a significant 14 

### climate and public health benefits for all. 15 

### The EPA has estimated that by 2030, 16 

### the Clean Power Plan will nationwide prevent 17 

### 150,000 asthma attacks and up to 6,600 18 

### premature deaths annually. In addition, the 19 

### Clean Power Plan provides great opportunities 20 

### for economic growth and sustainable 21 

### development. Investing in clean energy will 2279

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### create jobs and fuel economic growth in our 1 

### country. The EPA estimates the Clean Power 2 

### Plan will deliver annual benefits of up 93 3 

### billion by 2030. Furthermore, if we as a 4 

### country could end our dependence on fossil5 

### fuels, we have the potential to add a million 6 

### jobs nationwide in addition to having a 7 

### planet that is livable for future 8 

### generations. 9


### In order to ensure the draft model 10 

### Federal plan is strong and just, the EPA must 11 

### ensure that carbon pollution standards in the 12 

### model Federal plan achieve the pollution 13 

### reductions promised in the final Clean Power 14 

### Plan or even further reductions. 15 

### Second, ensure that states address 16 

### potential carbon pollution from new power 17 

### plants to achieve overall electric sector 18 

### reductions in carbon pollution. Third, 19 

### protect low-income consumers by maximizing 20 

### utilities incentives to invest in energy 21 

### efficiency which lowers household electric 2280

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### bills. Furthermore, these low-income 1 

### communities tend to be those who experience 2 

### the worst effects of climate change and air 3 

### pollution while they contributed the least to 4 

### the problems. These dirty power plants tend 5 

### to be in low-income communities which are 6 

### populated by racial minorities. 7 

### Fourth, ensure that the Model 8 

### Federal plan protects and benefits minority, 9 

### low income and indigenous communities that 10 

### have long time borne the brunt of fossil-fuel 11 

### pollution, and may be more likely to 12 

### experience the impacts of climate change. 13 

### And finally, resist giveaways of 14 

### allowances to the most polluting sources. No 15 

### amount of money or pollution emitted makes 16 

### these companies above the law. 17 

### By getting off of fossil fuels we 18 

### have the potential to add more than a million 19 

### jobs nationwide while preserving a planet 20 

### that is livable for future generations. 21 

### Thank you. 2281

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### MR. CASHIN: Again, I’m reading for 1 

### Tyler Hamman who is not able to be in 2


### attendance. 3 

### My name is Tyler Hamman, Director of 4 

### Government Affairs for the Lignite Energy 5 

### Council. 6 

### MS. NOONAN: Can you spell Hamman 7


### for us? 8 

### MR. CASHIN: Tyler, T-Y-L-E-R, 9 

### Hamman, H-A-M-M-A-N. 10 

### The Lignite Energy Counsel is to 11 

### preserve, protect and enhance the lignite 12 

### coal industry, to allow for the continued use 13 

### of our region’s vast lignite coal resources, 14 

### over an 800 year supply, to generate low-cost 15 

### electricity, as well as produce synthetic 16 

### natural gas and other valuable byproducts. 17 

### The LEC’s membership includes producers of 18 

### lignite coal who have an ownership interest 19 

### in and who mine lignite, users of lignite who 20 

### operate lignite-fired electric generating 21 

### plants and the nation’s only commercial-scale 2282

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### “synfuels” plant that converts lignite into 1 

### pipeline-quality natural gas, and suppliers 2 

### of goods and services to the lignite coal 3 

### industry. 4 

### I want to begin my statement with an 5 

### important date in the progression of EPA’s 6 

### regulation of carbon dioxide from the power 7 

### sector: December 22, 2010. This was the day 8 

### that the 111th session of Congress adjourned. 9 

### On that day, the U.S. Senate closed the door 10 

### on further consideration of House-passed cap 11 

### and trade legislation. The American Clean 12 

### Energy and Security Act of 2009. Five years 13 

### later, the EPA has proposed as part of its 14 

### federal rule what Congress explicitly denied, 15 

### a cap and trade scheme for the electric power 16


### sector. 17 

### The industry appreciates that the 18 

### EPA is trying to achieve meaningful 19 

### reductions in carbon dioxide emissions from 20 

### fossil fuel fired power plants. The State of 21 

### North Dakota has pledged to work in good 2283

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### faith to develop a state implementation plan 1 

### too in an attempt to meet EPA’s state goal. 2 

### However, the proposed federal rule gives us 3 

### concern that the EPA has, whether 4 

### intentionally or not, given North Dakota an 5 

### impossible task that will result in EPA 6 

### imposing all or part of the proposed Federal 7 

### plan. 8 

### Another concern is that EPA has 9 

### touted state options and flexibility, yet the 10 

### EPA’s Regulatory Impact Analysis repeatedly 11 

### asserts that state programs that “adhere to 12 

### the model rule provisions specified in the 13 

### rule making would be presumptively 14 

### approvable.” Or in other words, programs 15 

### that do not adhere to the model rule language 16 

### would not be approvable and may become 17 

### subject to the federal program. Page 5 of 18 

### the RIA even goes further in specifying that 19 

### “there are stand-alone provisions of the 20 

### model trading rules... that would be approvable 21 

### even if a state adopted an approach that 2284

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### differs from the federal plan.” 1 

### The Model Federal plan leaves many 2 

### significant questions unanswered, most 3 

### importantly the cost and availability of 4


### allowances under the federal trade scheme. 5 

### The EPA’s RIA estimates compliance costs 6 

### under the model plan to be anywhere from 5.1 7 

### to 8.4 billion in 2030. The North Dakota 8 

### Public Service Commission has estimated that 9 

### buying allowances alone to comply with the 10 

### Clean Power Plan could cost 370 million 11 

### annually for the State of North Dakota. 12 

### Further analysis and explanation 13 

### from the EPA is needed regarding the 14 

### availability of allowances and the 15 

### illiquidity of the allowance market under the 16 

### Model Federal plan. The EPA also needs to 17 

### clearly explain how the Model Federal plan 18 

### will ultimately account for the remaining 19 

### useful life of power plants. 20 

### In light of these concerns, the LEC 21 

### respectively requests that the proposed 2285

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### Federal plan be withdrawn and that EPA 1 

### develop state FIPs focused on achievable 2 

### state goals consistent with the Clean Air 3 

### Act. The Lignite Energy Council will 4 

### continue to work collaboratively with EPA and 5 

### the State of North Dakota on developing a 6 

### responsible state plan to reduce carbon 7 

### dioxide emissions. 8 

### Finally, the industry appreciates 9 

### the efforts of the EPA has made to date, most 10 

### recently by coming to North Dakota last week 11 

### to discuss the Clean Power Plan, and hope 12 

### that similar openness and communication can 13 

### continue. Thank you for the opportunity to 14 

### provide these comments. 15 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. Up 16 

### next we have Jack Ihle, please. 17 

### MR. IHLE: Good morning. 18 

### MS. NOONAN: Good morning. Could 19 

### you spell your full name? 20 

### MR. IHLE: Yes. It’s Jack, J-A-C-K, 21 

### Ihle, spelled I-H-L-E. 2286

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### Okay. My name is Jack Ihle, I’m a 1 

### director with Environmental Policy for Xcel 2 

### Energy. We appreciate the chance to give our 3 

### views to EPA on this. We plan to engage 4 

### constructively with EPA on this rule and with 5 

### our states on development of state plans. We 6 

### will file comments on the proposed Federal 7 

### plan, the subject of today. Those comments 8 

### will follow loosely -- or will significantly 9 

### elaborate on what I will briefly summarize 10 

### here, issues in the Clean Power Plan Proposed 11 

### Federal plan. 12 

### Issue number one, state discretion. 13 

### EPA should clarify that the states retain 14 

### discretion to pick their own allocation 15 

### approaches regardless of the approach set 16 

### forth in EPA’s proposed federal plan and 17


### model rules. The Clean Power Plan’s success 18 

### depends on state flexibility and discretion. 19 

### Although state discretion is important in all 20 

### aspects of the state plans, it is critical in 21 

### the allocation of allowances. 2287

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### Point two, no allowance auctions. 1 

### EPA should maintain its policy choice to 2 

### allocate allowances freely, rather than 3 

### auction them, in federal plan and model 4 

### rules. Free allocation reduces the cost of 5 

### the program for utility customers, avoids 6 

### problems with redistribution of auction 7 

### proceeds and is consistent with the laws in 8 

### most states, which would not authorize an 9 

### allowance auction. 10 

### Point three, allowance takings. The 11 

### final federal plan should not take allowances 12 

### from utility customers after a coal plant 13 

### retirement. Under mass-based program 14 

### proposed in the Federal plan, the owner of a 15 

### retiring power plant would receive the 16 

### allowances freed up by the retirement of a 17 

### unit, but only for two to three years 18 

### potentially after the retirement date. This 19 

### policy design is not required by the Clean 20 

### Air Act. It creates a disincentive to retire 21 

### coal plants, it punishes our customers for 2288

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### doing the right thing and unnecessarily 1 

### raises their costs. 2 

### Point four, leakage. In the Federal 3 

### plan, EPA has proposed to address the 4 

### possibility of emissions leakage by 5 

### reallocating a portion of each state’s 6 

### emission allowances to existing combined 7 

### cycle plants and to renewable energy. This 8 

### proposal has several flaws. EPA’s own 9 

### analysis shows that in many states that Xcel 10 

### Energy serves, the Clean Power Plan would not 11 

### result in leakage. Also, leakages should not 12 

### apply to increased emissions resulting from 13 

### increased electric demand or new gas fired 14 

### plants built to replace retiring low emitting 15 

### generating plants, such as nuclear, hydro or 16 

### renewable facilities. 17 

### In summary, EPA should narrowly 18 

### define leakage and should not apply leakage 19 

### requirements to low growth or new generation 20 

### that is replacing nuclear, hydro or 21


### renewables. 2289

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### Point five, Clean Energy Incentive 1 

### Program. The Clean Energy Incentive Program 2 

### included in the final rule and in the Federal 3 

### plan is a welcome effort to incentivize 4 

### actions prior to 2020. EPA should provide 5 

### credit under this program to any renewable 6 

### project or low-income energy efficiency 7 

### measure placed in service after promulgation 8 

### of the Final Clean Power Plan on October 9 

### 23rd, 2015. EPA should not stall renewable 10 

### and efficiency deployment by withholding 11 

### credits of projects until after states submit 12 

### the plans. 13 

### Point six, reliability safety valve. 14


### EPA should allow states to reuse the 15 

### reliability safety valve option regardless of 16 

### the type of program the state chooses to 17 

### implement the Clean Power Plan. 18 

### Point seven, measurement of 19 

### verification. Under rate-based programs 20 

### especially, EPA should defer to the state 21 

### PUCs to handle measurement and verification 2290

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### of renewable energy and especially energy 1 

### efficiency. 2 

### Point eight, repowering early 3 

### renewables. Again, under a rate-based 4 

### program we suggest that EPA allow utilities 5 

### and states the full credit for repowering 6 

### renewables that are brought online in 2012 or 7 

### earlier when those projects were 8 

### significantly repowered in the form of 9 

### granting those projects credits in the form 10 

### of ERCs for a rate-based approach. 11 

### We will comment more extensively on 12 

### these in written comments. I thank you for 13 

### your time. 14 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 15 

### MS. HIGHT: So I just wanted to 16 

### point out to folks today that we have some 17 

### upcoming stake holder calls on the Clean 18 

### Energy Incentive Program to gather feedback 19 

### on the design implementation details of that 20 

### program. The next one of those calls is 21 

### happening on November 23rd in the evening to 2291

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### make it convenient for folks who have a full 1 

### work day. And then we have two other calls, 2 

### one on November 30th and one on December 1st. 3 

### And the details for all of those, the call in 4 

### information are on our website. 5 

### MS. NOONAN: With that, we are going 6 

### to take a recess until 11:45 and we will see 7 

### if there are folks who have registered at 8 

### that time. And we will plan on taking a 9 

### lunch from noon to 1:00. 10 

### (Whereupon, at 11:29 a.m., a short recess was 11 

### taken, to reconvene at 11:45 a.m.) 12


### 11:45 a.m. 13 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you all for 14 

### bearing with us during this recess. We do 15 

### not at this time have any speakers who are 16 

### ready to speak. So I think what we are going 17 

### to do is go ahead and go to lunch early and 18 

### we will reconvene at 1:00 o’clock. And we 19 

### will be here until 5:00 today. So, thank 20


### you. 21 

### We have one speaker so we will 2292

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### reconvene. Will Jenny Willford please come 1 

### forward for her testimony. You are right 2 

### there and you have five minutes. The light 3 

### will turn yellow when you have one minute 4


### left. 5 

### MS. WILLFORD: Okay. 6 

### MS. NOONAN: And if you could spell 7 

### your first and last name. 8 

### MS. WILFORD: Okay, sure. So my 9 

### first name is Jenny, J-E-N-N-Y, last name 10 

### Willford, W-I-L-L-F-O-R-D. 11 

### First of all, I want to say thank 12 

### you so much for the opportunity to be a part 13 

### of this. I really appreciate you being here 14 

### and taking testimony. 15 

### I am Jenny Willford. I am a new 16 

### mom. My husband and I are thrilled to raise 17 

### our son right here in Colorado. We both come 18 

### from families who are passionate about the 19 

### outdoors. Our family trips have always 20 

### involved hunting and fishing, fly fishing for 21 

### me and my husband more lure fishing. He is 2293

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### terrible, don’t tell him I said that. And 1 

### that’s really one of our most favorite ways 2 

### to spend time with our family is outdoors. 3 

### And I want to be able to pass on my love of 4 

### the outdoors to my son. Like most parents, I 5 

### want clean, healthy air for our kids to 6 

### prevent asthma and other childhood 7 

### respiratory illnesses. Implementing the EPA 8 

### Clean Power Plan to cut air pollution from 9 

### power plants with outdated equipment is 10 

### critical to maintaining the health of our 11 

### families. 12 

### My grandfather is a World War II 13 

### veteran and he lives just a couple of streets 14 

### down from me. And I think about his health 15 

### and about his future all of the time. And I 16 

### want to be able to continue to enjoy family 17 

### vacations with him to come. And I want to 18 

### feel confident that the air in our 19 

### neighborhood in Northglenn, just a few miles 20 

### up from here, is safe to breathe. 21 

### The facts are clear, the plan will 2294

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### make kids and grandparents healthier. And I 1 

### am very much in favor of the Clean Power Plan 2 

### for clean air for kids and our future. 3 

### Thank you so much. 4 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Is there 5 

### anyone else who would like to testify at this 6 

### time? 7 

### (No audible response) 8 

### MS. NOONAN: I think we are just 9 

### going to wait until noon in case anyone 10



### comes. 11 

### We are adjourning until 1:00 12


### o’clock. 13 

### (Whereupon, at 12:02 p.m., a luncheon recess 14 

### was taken, to reconvene at 1:00 p.m.) 15

16

17

18

19

20

21

2295

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### P R O C E E D I N G S 1


### AFTERNOON SESSION 2 

### 1:00 p.m. 3 

### MS. NOONAN: It looks like it is 4 

### 1:00 o’clock and we will reconvene the 5 

### hearing. So our first two speakers are Emma 6 

### Pinter and Angelique Kenison. 7 

### Wait, I need to read the opening 8 

### statement. Come up to the table, please. 9 

### Let me -- I’m going to do an abbreviated 10 

### version. 11 

### Good afternoon. My name is Jenny Noonan 12 

### and I am the chair of today’s public hearing. 13 

### Thank you for joining today. I am joined by 14 

### Scott Jackson and Nick Swanson. And I will do 15 

### just a couple -- just a little bit of a brief 16 

### summary of why we are here today. Fossil-fueled 17 

### fire power plants are the largest source of U.S. 18 

### carbon dioxide emissions, or carbon pollution, 19 

### accounting for 31 percent of U.S. total 20 

### greenhouse gas emissions. 21 

### We are here today to listen to your 2296

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### comments on EPA’s proposed Federal plan and model 1 

### rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 2 

### existing power plants. This proposal includes 3 

### four discrete proposed actions. One, a rate4 

### based Federal plan for each state with an 5 

### affected electric generating unit, or EGU. 6 

### Two, a mass-based Federal plan for each 7 

### state with affected EGUs. 8 

### Three, a rate-based model trading rule 9 

### for potential use by any state. 10 

### And four, a mass-based model trading rule 11 

### for potential use by any state. 12 

### The proposed Federal plan will achieve 13 

### the same level of emission performance as 14 

### required of state plans under the Clean Power 15 

### Plan. The proposal also includes model rules for 16 

### those states that are developing their own plans. 17 

### In addition, the proposal contains a finding that 18 

### it is necessary or appropriate to implement a 19 

### section 111(d) federal plan for the affected 20 

### electric generating units located in Indian 21 

### country. CO2 emission performance rates for 2297

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### these facilities were finalized in the final 1


### Clean Power Plan. 2 

### And information on how the EPA will reach 3 

### out to communities throughout the comment period 4 

### and an overview of the actions that the EPA is 5 

### taking to ensure that vulnerable communities are 6 

### not being disproportionately impacted by this 7 

### rulemaking. 8 

### If you would like more details on the 9 

### proposed rule there are fact sheets out in the 10 

### hallway and at the registration desk. 11 

### And just a few housekeeping items that 12 

### will help things run smoothly. 13 

### First, make sure you have checked in at 14 

### the registration desk even if you are not 15 

### planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 16 

### speak online or by phone but haven’t yet told us 17 

### that you’re here, please step out to the 18 

### registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 19 

### you have arrived. 20 

### I will call the speakers up in pairs. 21 

### When your name is called, please come to the 2298

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### speakers’ table at the front of the room. When I 1 

### call on you to speak, please state your name and 2 

### spell it for the court reporter. Your comments 3 

### will be transcribed and included in the record of 4 

### comments on the proposed rule. 5 

### Each speaker will have five minutes to 6 

### give comments. We have a timer light to help you 7 

### know how much time you have left to speak. When 8 

### the light turns from green to yellow, that means 9 

### you have one minute remaining. When it turns to 10 

### red, that’s a signal that you are at five minutes 11 

### and it’s time to stop. When you are finished 12 

### speaking, please remain at the table until the 13 

### person next to you has completed his or her 14 

### testimony. 15 

### We are here to listen to you today; 16 

### however, a panel member may ask a question to 17 

### clarify your comments. If you have brought a 18 

### written copy of your testimony, please give it to 19 

### us or the court reporter or the staff at the 20 

### registration desk. We will put any written 21 

### comments into the official docket for the 2299

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### proposed rule. 1 

### We also have comment cards available at the 2 

### registration desk outside. And if you want to 3 

### comment in writing later, you can find 4 

### information about how to do that at the 5 

### registration desk. And comments must be received 6 

### by January 21, 2016. 7 

### Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 8 

### much consideration to comments submitted in 9 

### writing as we do to comments we receive at public 10 

### hearings like this one. So if you have more 11 

### comments that you would like to provide to the 12 

### EPA, please submit them by the comment period 13 

### deadline. Your comments will be reviewed. 14 

### If you have any questions during the day, 15 

### please see the staff at the registration desk and 16 

### someone will assist you. 17 

### And thank you again for taking the time 18 

### to come today and we look forward to hearing your 19 

### comments. Let’s get started. 20


### MS. PINTER: So that’s me? 21 

### MS. NOONAN: Please start with spelling 22100

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### your name. 1 

### MS. PINTER: Hi, my name is Emma Pinter 2 

### and my last name is P-I-N-T-E-R. 3 

### I am the head mom with Colorado Moms Know 4 

### Best. And I am proud to represent the group 5


### Colorado Moms Know Best. We have moms and 6 

### families from all across the State of Colorado 7 

### supporting the Clean Power Plan today. 8 

### Moms believe that we have a moral 9 

### obligation to protect our children’s health and 10 

### future. Ensuring that they have clean air is one 11 

### of those very basics. 12 

### Cleaning up air pollution from power 13 

### plants will decrease illnesses like childhood 14 

### asthma that not only slow our kids down but cost 15 

### us billions of dollars in pediatric healthcare 16 

### and missed parent work days each year. 17 

### The great news is that Colorado is in 18 

### great shape to meet the standards since we are 19 

### already on track to reduce carbon pollution by 75 20 

### percent with the policies that we have in place. 21 

### Coloradans value clean air, healthy kids and our 22101

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### outdoor lifestyle. So embracing the Clean Power 1 

### Plan is really a no brainer for us. 2 

### So thank you. 3 

### MS. KENISON: My name is Angelique 4 

### Kenison. That’s A-N-G-E-L-I-Q-U-E, Kenison K-E5 

### N-I-S-O-N. I am an environmental chemist for an 6 

### environmental proficiency testing company. And 7 

### so this is a topic that I care a lot about. 8 

### As the mother of two active children who 9 

### love to run and play outside, I’m delighted that 10 

### the Clean Power Plan rules will reduce air 11 

### pollution from dirty power plants in the coming 12


### years. 13 

### My husband and I spend a lot of time with 14 

### our children playing -- from playing in the back 15 

### yard to launching model rockets in nearby fields, 16 

### as well as hiking, biking, gardening -- anything 17 

### outside. 18 

### I’m excited for the Clean Power Plan 19 

### because all of these activities are much better 20 

### with clean air. Breathing dirty air increases 21 

### asthma attacks, respiratory diseases, 22102

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### hospitalizations, and even heart attacks. It’s 1 

### especially bad for children whose lungs are still 2 

### developing, as well as for their grandparents who 3 

### are more vulnerable to bronchitis, pneumonia and 4 

### other illnesses. 5 

### Both my husband and I work in the 6 

### sciences and as such knows that innovation leads 7 

### to new jobs. The Clean Power Plan will preserve 8 

### our clean air and way of life that is important 9 

### to attracting new businesses and workers to 10 

### Colorado, as well as grow the State’s clean tech 11 

### economy. It’s good for kids and for comers, the 12 

### Clean Power Plan is a win/win all the way around. 13 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. 14 

### MS. KENISON: Thank you. 15 

### MS. NOONAN: Is there anyone here who has 16 

### not already spoken who would like to at this 17 

### time? 18 

### MR. ETTER: I just wrote down a few notes 19 

### of things I would like to say if that’s all 20 

### right. 21 

### MS. NOONAN: Yes. Just please start with 22103

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### your name and how you spell it. 1 

### MR. ETTER: Okay. So my name is Art 2 

### Etter. That’s A-R-T, last name is E-T-T-E-R. 3 

### And thank you for giving me the 4 

### opportunity. But I am here to voice my opposition 5 

### to the Clean Power Plan. I work as a full-time 6 

### coal miner and part-time farmer on our farm in 7 

### the North Fork Valley. North Fork Valley is 8 

### located in the Western Slope. It’s a beautiful 9 

### place to live, rural community in Delta County. 10 

### Historically the main economic drivers in 11 

### our valley have been agriculture and coal mining. 12 

### The coal mined in the valley, it’s unique to the 13 

### market place. It’s very high in BTU, very low in 14


### sulfur. 15 

### In 2013, the positive impact of the three 16 

### mines was significant. There was well over a 17 

### hundred million dollars paid in salaries and 18 

### benefits to mine employees. It doesn’t include 19 

### the tens of millions of dollars paid in royalties 20 

### and taxes to fund local government and our local 21 

### school districts. It also doesn’t include the 22104

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### tens of millions of dollars that has been paid to 1 

### contractors, consultants, material suppliers and 2


### venders. 3 

### The economic impact in the valley is 4 

### substantial with the three mines. Since 2010, 5 

### the mines have seen coal prices plunge as a 6 

### result of unprecedently low natural gas prices, 7 

### increased power plant regulation and the long 8 

### term risk associated with the implementation of 9 

### the carbon pollution plan. The mines in the 10 

### North Fork Valley have an excellent environmental 11 

### compliance track record, very good working 12 

### relationships with regulators and local 13 

### environmental groups. 14 

### The environmental impact associated with 15 

### the North Fork mines is minimal while in 16 

### operation and negligible once reclaimed. Locals 17 

### often mountain bike, hike, cross country ski, 18 

### hunt and fish on mine property boundary and 19 

### within lease boundaries without even realizing 20 

### the extensive mining that’s underground below 21 

### them, especially once reclaimed. 22105

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### My concerns with the Clean Power Plan go 1 

### beyond the loss of thousands of well-paying jobs 2 

### in our small community. I’m concerned with the 3 

### cost of the plan in the form of increased energy 4 

### costs for fixed income families, of which there 5 

### are many in the North Fork Valley. If the Clean 6 

### Power Plan is implemented in its current form, 7 

### energy costs for Coloradans are expected to 8 

### increase by twenty-five to thirty-five percent. 9 

### And this number is a conservative estimate based 10 

### on current relatively inexpensive cost of natural 11


### gas. 12 

### The global carbon reductions are marginal 13 

### at best. To put this in perspective, once the 14 

### plan is fully implemented, the total annual 15 

### carbon reduced in the U.S. will be equivalent to 16 

### the total carbon emitted in China in one month. 17 

### The risk this plan creates in our local, 18 

### rural and national economy is far too great when 19 

### considering the national reductions in global 20


### carbon. 21 

### Thank you. 22106

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### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 1 

### Okay. Is there anyone else who would 2 

### like to speak? 3 

### (No audible response) 4 

### MS. NOONAN: I think we will be in recess 5 

### until 1:35. 6 

### (Whereupon, a recess was taken at 1:12 p.m.) 7 

### (Back on the record at 2:00 p.m.) 8 

### MS. NOONAN: Okay. By the clock on the 9 

### wall we have 2:00 o’clock and we are reconvening 10 

### the public hearing. And I would like to call up 11 

### Jeff Hart to speak. So you will have five 12 

### minutes to speak. And there is a timer here. 13 

### MR. HART: Okay. 14 

### MS. NOONAN: I’m sorry, we don’t have any 15 

### amplification, no microphone. 16 

### MR. HART: Okay. 17 

### MS. NOONAN: We tried but it just didn’t 18 

### work out today. Could you start out by spelling 19 

### your first and last name? 20 

### MR. HART: My name is Jeff Hart, H-A-R-T, 21


### J-E-F-F. 22107

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### MS. NOONAN: Whenever you are ready. 1 

### MR. HART: Okay, all right. Thank you 2 

### for the opportunity to testify today. Again, my 3 

### name is Jeff Hart. And I have been studying 4 

### environmental issues for over twenty-five years, 5 

### first as a senior program analyst with the GAO, 6 

### the U.S. Government Accountability Office here in 7 

### Denver, as well as Frankfurt, Germany and Dallas, 8 

### Texas. Second, as manager of EPA’s Denver office 9 

### of inspector general right here in this building. 10 

### In that role, I lead the OIGs first ever studies 11 

### of climate change activities, the first and 12 

### second of those studies ever conducted by the 13 

### OIG. There was a report in 2007 that showed that 14 

### EPA’s voluntary programs lacked internal policy 15 

### controls or systematic management. That report 16 

### number is 2007-P-00041 and ’09 report showed that 17 

### EPA had no comprehensive plans or policies on 18 

### climate change or climate change related 19


### research. 20 

### Thirdly, as part of those twenty-five 21 

### years, I more recently have been -- since 2007 22108

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### been a climate leader and presenter with the 1 

### climate reality project. And was one of the -- 2 

### as part of that role, one of the first people 3 

### invited to be personally trained by former Vice 4 

### President Al Gore to go out and present his slide 5 

### show made famous, An Inconvenient Truth. 6 

### So the first thing I want to say is as 7 

### far as Colorado, more of my recent research, it 8 

### showed that Colorado is clearly up for this 9 

### challenge. Colorado has been a leader in 10 

### reducing power plant emissions for a long time 11 

### now already and can easily maintain an 12 

### affordable, reliable, cost-effective electric 13 

### system. So I don’t think that is any concern 14 

### here despite the fact that our State Attorney 15 

### General has filed suit against the EPA, much to 16 

### my dismay and many others’ dismay given that our 17 

### chief executive, Governor John Hickenlooper, has 18 

### come out strongly in favor of the Clean Power 19 

### Plan and Colorado’s ability to implement -- 20 

### successfully implement that plan and meet those 21 

### goals. 22109

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### So the scientific evidence is clear, the 1 

### Earth’s climate is warming. There’s been 2 

### obviously multiple independent measurements to 3 

### confirm this widespread warming, particularly in 4 

### the Western United States, including here in 5 

### Colorado. In fact, climate models project 6 

### Colorado will warm by 2.5 degrees by 2025 and 4 7 

### degrees by 2050 relative to the 1950 to 1999 8 

### baseline. Projections also suggest that the 9 

### typical monthly summer temperatures will be as 10 

### warm or warmer than the hottest ten percent of 11 

### summers that occurred between 1950 and 1999. 12 

### Research also shows that climate change 13 

### will negatively affect Colorado’s use and ability 14 

### to properly distribute water in our state. Water 15 

### managers and planners here in Colorado currently 16 

### face specific challenges already that may be 17 

### further exacerbated by projected climate change 18 

### as I have just outlined. Projections also show a 19 

### precipitous decline in snow pack. Furthermore, 20 

### the spring -- the onset of stream flows from 21 

### melting snow in Colorado has shifted earlier, by 22110

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### two weeks, which obviously shortens our popular 1 

### ski season, costing Colorado jobs and other ski2 

### related revenues, damaging our economy. 3 

### Projections also suggest that declining 4 

### runoff for most of Colorado’s river basins by up 5 

### to forty-five percent. Warming temperatures may 6 

### have also increased the severity of droughts and 7 

### floods and exacerbated these impacts. 8 

### Also overall, as I have already eluded 9 

### to, is increased water demand, water quality 10 

### being sensitive to both increased water 11 

### temperatures and changes and patterns of 12 

### precipitation may affect sediment load and the 13 

### related water pollution negatively impacting 14


### human health. 15 

### Another example with regard to water 16 

### stress, trees may be more vulnerable to pests, 17 

### like the pine beetle that has devastated 18 

### Colorado’s forests, affecting recreational 19 

### opportunities and further negatively impacting 20


### our economy. 21


### As far as other water and snow-based 22111

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### recreation changes and reservoir storage, 1 

### negatively affect lake and river recreational 2 

### activities. Changes in stream flow intensity and 3 

### timing will continue to negatively affect rafting 4 

### and trout fishing. Changes in the character and 5 

### timing of snow pack and the ratio of snowfall to 6 

### rainfall will continue to influence winter 7 

### recreational activities and related tourism. 8 

### For these reasons and more I strongly 9 

### support EPA’s Clean Power Plan and I’m happy to 10 

### answer any questions. 11 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. I’m 12 

### pretty sure I know the answer to this, but if 13 

### there is anyone here who has not yet testified 14 

### who would like to -- we will wait just a few more 15 

### minutes. 16 

### Okay. To give you the summary, you will 17 

### have five minutes to speak. When this light 18 

### turns yellow you will have one minute left. If 19 

### you could start out by spelling your first and 20


### last name. 21 

### MR. STANLEY: Absolutely. Hi, I am Dr. 22112

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### Christopher Stanley, C-H-R-I-S-T-O-P-H-E-R, last 1 

### name is Stanley, S-T-A-N-L-E-Y. 2 

### Good afternoon. I am again Dr. Chris 3 

### Stanley. I’m the vice president for Population 4 

### Health and the chief medical officer of our own 5 

### employee benefit plan at Catholic Health 6 

### Initiatives. It’s a parent organization of the 7 

### Centura Health System. It’s headquartered here in 8


### Colorado. 9 

### I live in Denver, I’m a pediatrician. 10 

### I’m the Board President of the American Lung 11 

### Association in Colorado. And I’m the proud 12 

### parent of a beautiful and healthy daughter. 13 

### I’m here today to testify in support of 14 

### strong federal and model plans that will help 15 

### drive a shift to cleaner energy sources, address 16 

### climate change and reduce as much pollution as 17 

### possible to protect public health. As a health 18 

### professional and as a parent, I know that climate 19 

### change can harm health through degraded air 20 

### quality, wildfires, drought, heat waves and more. 21 

### I also know that these impacts worsen the burden 22113

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### that many in Colorado already suffer with because 1 

### of power plant pollution. 2 

### We, at the American Lung Association 3 

### support the Clean Power Plan to reduce carbon and 4 

### other air pollutants that cause asthma attacks, 5 

### heart attacks and premature deaths. And I want 6 

### to make sure we achieve the EPA’s estimated 7 

### health benefits of the Clean Power Plan, 8 

### including preventing up to 3,600 premature deaths 9 

### by 2030, preventing 90,000 asthma attacks and 10 

### avoiding 300,000 days missed from work and school 11 

### each year. 12 

### These health benefits can only be 13 

### achieved if states develop effective plans to 14 

### meet the requirements set out by the EPA in the 15


### Clean Power Plan. And for those states who 16 

### refuse to comply, it is critical that the EPA 17 

### have a way to ensure emission reductions by 18 

### taking action at the federal level. 19 

### We support the EPA’s efforts to help the 20 

### states develop and adopt effective plans to 21 

### reduce their carbon emissions. Having model 22114

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### plans to use will help the state focus their time 1 

### and effort in choosing the steps that work best 2


### for them. 3 

### The American Lung Association in Colorado 4 

### broadly supports the Clean Power Plan, but we 5 

### also have some suggestions for improvement. The 6 

### EPA needs to do more in the model rule to ensure 7 

### that low-income communities don’t continue to 8 

### bear the oversized burden of pollution under this 9 

### plan. 10 

### In particular, low-income communities 11 

### have suffered the consequences of pollution 12 

### exposure from coal-fired power plants for far too 13 

### long. They have lived near these plants where 14 

### they breathe the worst of the pollution, 15 

### including toxic emissions like arsenic, lead and 16 

### carcinogens like benzene, spewed uncontrolled for 17 

### far too long. They are suffering more from 18 

### changes that climate change brings. Research 19 

### supports that air pollution disproportionally 20 

### harms poorer communities as seen by increased 21 

### incidence of disease like asthma. 22115

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### EPA’s analysis, as well as analysis by 1 

### Harvard University and others, show that steps to 2 

### reduce carbon emissions will also have co3 

### benefits that reduce other harmful emissions from 4 

### these plants, like ozone precursors and sulfur 5 

### oxides. 6 

### Cleaning up these plants is essential, 7 

### but we remain concerned that some states will 8 

### adopt a plan that does not recognize the 9 

### continued disproportionate burden and fails to 10 

### reduce emissions from all sources. Each plan -- 11 

### excuse me, each state plan should take leadership 12 

### to make sure that their plans do not continue to 13 

### disproportionately burden those who live near the 14 

### plants. 15 

### Thank you for allowing me to testify 16 

### today. 17 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 18 

### MR. STANLEY: Thank you. 19 

### MS. NOONAN: All right. Having no other 20 

### registered speakers at this time, we are going to 21 

### take a recess until a quarter of three. 22116

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### (Whereupon, at 2:13 p.m. a short recess 1 

### was taken, to reconvene at 2:45 p.m. 2 

### 2:47 p.m. 3 

### MS. NOONAN: There are no speakers 4 

### registered to speak at this time. So we are 5 

### going to just hang out here until -- and be 6 

### available should people -- when people arrive. 7 

### (Whereupon, at 2:47 p.m. a short recess 8 

### was taken.) 9 

### 3:27 p.m. 10 

### MS. NOONAN: We are reconvening the 11 

### public hearing. And Mr. Brad Cofield, would you 12 

### please come up. Have a seat. You will have five 13 

### minutes to speak. You have a timer and when it 14 

### gets to the yellow light, it means you have one 15 

### minute left. 16 

### MR. COFIELD: Okay. 17 

### MS. NOONAN: Five minutes -- that’s 18 

### pretty much it. 19 

### MR. COFIELD: Great. Thank you very 20 

### much. I appreciate the opportunity to be here 21 

### today. My name is Brad Cofield and I work for 22117

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### Wagner Equipment Company. We are a Caterpillar 1 

### equipment dealer in Colorado, New Mexico and far 2 

### west Texas. We have a total of 1600 employees, 3 

### and 120 of those employees in Colorado facilities 4 

### that are directly -- directly support our 5 

### Colorado mining communities, communities like 6 

### Craig, Hayden, Paonia and Grand Junction. 7 

### Over the last fifteen years we have 8 

### worked with our partner, Caterpillar, and our 9 

### customers to implement the EPA’s tiered emission 10 

### programs for on and off highway emissions. Those 11 

### are on highway vehicles, off-road machinery. 12 

### These emission improvements have been 13 

### accomplished through cooperation between 14 

### government and industry. And the end results 15 

### were machines and vehicles that emit a fraction 16 

### of the particulate and Nox levels that they 17 

### emitted fifteen years ago. 18 

### These regulations didn’t single out 19 

### particular fuel sources for extinction, rather 20 

### they set realistic goals and industry worked to 21 

### meet them over a period of time that allowed for 22118

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### new technology to be developed and cost-effective 1 

### solutions implemented. 2 

### The Clean Power Plan, in contrast, is 3 

### aimed at eliminating coal with little regard to 4 

### the economic impact of this action. The Obama 5 

### Administration promises the CPP will have a 6 

### widespread effect on the “increasingly extreme 7 

### storms and weather conditions.” But by EPA’s own 8 

### calculations, CPP will only avert future 9 

### temperature increases by less than two one10 

### hundredths of a degree Celsius by the year 2100. 11 

### It is estimated that wholesale energy costs will 12 

### increase by 214 billion dollars between 2022 and 13 

### 2030. Is this expense worth such a small change 14 

### in our environment? 15 

### In addition, these measures would have 16 

### huge impacts to the economies of communities like 17 

### Paonia, Colorado, Craig, Colorado and Hayden 18 

### Colorado and cost Colorado thousands of jobs. Not 19 

### just mining jobs, not just the power plant jobs, 20 

### but all of the industry and employees that 21 

### support those industries. These same measures 22119

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### are estimated to increase Coloradan’s electrical 1 

### rates by 19 percent by 2030. So I urge you not 2 

### to waste our money for such a low environmental 3


### return. 4 

### I appreciate your time. Thank you very 5


### much. 6 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 7 

### COURT REPORTER: How do you spell your 8


### last name? 9


### MR. COFIELD: C-O-F-I-E-L-D. 10 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 11 

### MR. COFIELD: Thank you. 12 

### MS. NOONAN: We will stand by for other 13 

### speakers as they may be arriving this afternoon. 14 

### Again, the hearing will close at 5:00. 15 

### I’d like to call Ronald Larsen and Soren 16 

### Hermanson, come to the table. 17 

### So you each have five minutes to speak. 18 

### There is a timer here. When the light turns to 19 

### yellow that means that you have one minute left 20 

### and at red -- it will turn red at five minutes. 21 

### And if you could start out by spelling your first 22120

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### and last names for the court reporter and we 1 

### would be happy to take your testimony. 2 

### MR. LARSON: I will start. My name is 3 

### Dr. Ronald Larson, L-A-R-S-O-N. 4 

### I’m here because I’ve had a long history 5 

### in Colorado on renewable energy and I totally 6 

### support this plan. And I will give a little bit 7 

### more background but I’m mainly here to introduce 8 

### the concept of carbon dioxide removal. I gave 9 

### testimony a year or so ago when this was a draft 10 

### plan and said something about carbon dioxide 11


### removal. 12 

### In particular, in my case for the 13 

### technology called Biochar. I think it’s by far 14 

### the best approach. We are seeing people take 15 

### carbon out of atmosphere without any subsidies 16 

### all over the world. And the reason is if you can 17 

### get double -- some people triple and quadruple 18 

### the amount of produce as you put charcoal into 19 

### the ground. And so I think it will be -- I 20 

### believe will be the least cost approach of taking 21 

### carbon out of the atmosphere. I could go on 22121

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### about that but I have not followed this very 1 

### closely, but I know that the EPA has a Technical 2 

### Advisory Committee that has been meeting on 3 

### biomass. And the word biomass appears and biochar 4 

### appears in those deliberations and reports on the 5 

### meetings of this advisory committee. 6 

### I had not planned on coming down, I 7 

### planned on writing something. But my friend, 8 

### Soren, gave a call, and he stayed at our house a 9 

### few years ago at -- when he was here to explain 10 

### things that had happened on his island of Samso 11 

### in Denmark. His -– Soren, I think you were 12 

### listed in a Time magazine list of a hundred or 13 

### something weren’t you -- is that correct? 14 

### Anyways, perhaps the most renewable 15 

### energy part of the world, well over one hundred 16 

### percent renewable. So he called today and I was 17 

### able to clear off the twenty inches of snow 18 

### enough to get down here because I wanted to talk 19 

### to Soren. So I might pick up a little bit but 20 

### Soren was not expecting at all to talk here. But 21 

### I do think that he has a message not just from 22122

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### Denmark, and not just from Samso Island, but from 1


### -- Soren? 2 

### MR. HERMANSON: So my name is Soren 3 

### Hermanson, S-O-R-E-N, and my family name is 4 

### Hermanson, H-E-R-M-A-N-S-O-N. And I am from the 5 

### Danish Island Samso. And I am representing a 6 

### product that started in ’98 to convert the entire 7 

### island into one hundred percent renewable energy. 8 

### And this has been a really successful development 9 

### over time and we are now exporting green energy 10 

### to the mainland. 11 

### So this was possible due to a progressive 12 

### green policy of the Danish parliament. So I 13 

### could say that we are kind of the symbol or the 14 

### effect of a progressive long-term agreement 15 

### coalition from the Danish parliament saying that 16 

### we aim for reduction of CO2 and we aim for an 17 

### introduction of renewable energy in the total 18 

### system. We want to decommission the centralized 19 

### power plants and install decentralized and power 20 

### systems and wind power and solar to replace that. 21 

### And to have that working, we needed to 22123

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### have bills for -- for the support of the 1 

### transition from an oil economy to a green economy 2 

### based on local resources. And we did that so 3 

### successfully that we have been recognized by your 4 

### media here. I actually had a call from PBS today 5 

### and they are going to broadcast the program about 6 

### Denmark and Samso on Saturday. So it is taken 7 

### seriously mainly because we are facing the 8 

### climate carbon meeting in Paris in a few weeks. 9 

### And of course this is interesting also from my 10 

### perspective, what you are doing from outside in 11 

### America because you are -- I mean, you are such a 12 

### big community that it makes a difference, 13 

### whatever you do, on what we are doing here. 14 

### We can be the lighthouse leading project 15 

### in Denmark but we are a rich little community in 16 

### a non-part of Europe and we have enough resources 17 

### to be able to do what we want to do, while you 18 

### are a much more complex society. And it’s really 19 

### important to see also how you solve this, how you 20 

### actually make the bills that makes it possible to 21 

### make these transitions from a more fossil driven 22124

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### economy to kind of a cleaner act. Where you look 1 

### at carbon sequestering or you look at 2 

### carbonization of the CO2 problem into kind of a 3 

### carbon solution, which is also interesting. 4 

### We are a farming community as well and we 5 

### are looking at not so much the charcoal, but we 6 

### are looking at the carbon dioxide emission as our 7 

### resource more than our problem, if you understand 8 

### what I mean. So sequestering is interesting but 9 

### it comes after the transition from fossil-fuel to 10 

### green energy. Now we can talk to the farmers 11 

### because they are -- they are producing our straw 12 

### from the District Heating Boilers and we are then 13 

### sending these out in a pipe system to all of the 14 

### citizens. 15 

### And again, in addition to our structure 16 

### that leads to the farmers understanding that 17 

### their contribution is also sequestering carbon 18 

### dioxide. We keep kind of the carbon dioxide in a 19 

### loop so the growth of wheat will obtain the same 20 

### amount of CO2 that is emitted when we burn it in 21 

### the boiler. And the ashes with the minerals is 22125

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### then sent back to the top soil and spread out as 1 

### fertilizer. 2 

### And I see a great potential also here 3 

### because you are leading industry -- you are 4 

### leading farming and there are a lot of very big 5 

### moves and activities and your part of the country 6 

### -- your part of the world. 7 

### So I think it’s time that you kind of 8 

### take over the leadership here also and become the 9 

### green and obviously leader that you could be if 10 

### you really wanted it. Colorado is in many cases 11 

### the better choices than many of the other states. 12 

### But, I mean, if you look at the west coast, 13 

### California is an outstanding area but it is 14 

### mostly innovation and technology, where I think 15 

### here you have the resources and biological 16 

### development of sequestering -- carbon 17 

### sequestering in your top soil. 18 

### So I am pleased to be invited to -- I’m 19 

### not sure how much influence I can have on the 20 

### bill but for sure it is interesting to see what 21 

### is happening here. And I think your role as a 22126

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### leading -- kind of your leading role in the world 1 

### is important. And I am really very much looking 2 

### forward to what the bill will be after the carbon 3 

### meeting in Paris. Because if you take on the 4 

### leadership, the rest will have to follow. So 5 

### good luck with that. 6 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. And could you 7 

### spell the name of your island? 8 

### MR. HERMANSON: Samso, S-A-M-S-O. You 9 

### can find a lot of stuff on the internet from the 10 

### island. 11 

### MR. LARSON: Soren, I said it was more 12 

### than one hundred percent, what number? 13 

### MR. HERMANSON: Like I said, we are one 14 

### hundred and forty percent. We export about 80 15 

### million kilowatt hours per year we export to the 16 

### mainland mainly from wind and solar. 17 

### MR. LARSON: I might add, I hope we are 18 

### not going over here that Denmark has proposed 19 

### more biomass in my interest, although it’s been - 20 

### - for four years it’s been mostly solar. I have 21 

### solar on my house, I have an electric car and all 22127

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### of that. But I’m primarily worried about taking 1 

### carbon out of the atmosphere. It has to be done 2 

### with biomass. You can’t do it with either wind 3 

### or solar, it is not enough to simply put less 4 

### carbon into the atmosphere. We must take it out. 5 

### So my question was going to be out of 6 

### your 140 percent, what percent -- before 7 

### answering, what I was going to see of the Danish 8 

### projections, you have as much biomass as wind and 9 

### a lot more than solar, am I correct, as a 10 

### national goal? 11 

### MR. HERMANSON: We have a lot of biomass, 12 

### and especially because we use the residues from 13 

### farm products as our fuel. Then it’s not 14 

### produced for energy, it’s produced for food. And 15 

### then we take the straw or the residue from 16 

### farming and convert it into energy. 17 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much. 18 

### MR. SWANSON: I would encourage you both 19 

### to write your comments down. It is very nice 20 

### technical information that you’re describing but 21 

### it would help us in terms of what to do with it 22128

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### via writing as well. 1 

### MR. LARSON: We will sit and listen for a 2 

### while too. 3 

### MS. NOONAN: There is information on how 4 

### to do that at the registration desk. 5 

### MR. HERMANSON: Yeah, we got that 6 

### information. 7 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. 8 

### Okay. Next we would like to call Morris 9 

### Sparkman, please. Mr. Sparkman, you will have 10 

### five minutes to speak. When the light turns 11 

### yellow, that means that you have one minute left. 12 

### MR. SPARKMAN: Okay. Perfect. 13 

### MS. NOONAN: And if you could start by 14 

### spelling your first and last name. 15 

### MR. SPARKMAN: Sure. My name is Morris 16 

### Sparkman, M-O-R-R-I-S, Sparkman, S-P-A-R-K-M-A-N. 17 

### I just want to say thank you very much 18 

### for the opportunity to speak this afternoon. I 19 

### am currently a student at the University of 20 

### Denver and I’m involved with the Collegians for a 21 

### Constructive Tomorrow, which is a national based 22129

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### non-profit that focuses on environmental issues. 1 

### As students, my peers and I are always 2 

### doing something that we can -- that will prepare 3 

### us for our careers after school. We study hard, 4 

### play hard on our sports teams, and work hard in 5 

### our part time jobs and internships. I testify in 6 

### opposition to the Clean Power Plan because it 7 

### will reduce the chance of all of our hard work 8 

### paying off. 9 

### The CPP will increase energy costs for 10 

### all Americans, but will hit low and middle income 11 

### Americans hardest. It will also make it harder 12 

### for recent graduates, like I intend to be pretty 13 

### soon, from making ends meet on our own and moving 14 

### out of our parents’ homes. With almost all of us 15 

### dealing with heavy student loans, the last thing 16 

### we need is the monthly utility bill removing our 17 

### ability to save a few bucks at the end of each 18


### month. 19 

### The EPA claims more taxpayer-financed 20 

### energy subsidies will help the poorest families. 21 

### What about everyone else? The President and many 22130

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### others say that becoming more reliant on 1 

### renewable energy is about future generations. 2 

### But if the only way our least fortunate can 3 

### afford the CPP is with subsidies, thus increasing 4 

### our historically high debt, then the CPP is only 5 

### hurting future generations, like myself, who will 6 

### have to pay for these bills down the line. Those 7 

### checks you are writing now will have to be cashed 8 

### by my generation. 9 

### Others argue that whatever the cost, 10 

### whatever the burden, it is worth to preserve the 11 

### planet. However, according to climatologist 12 

### Judith Curry from the Georgia Tech, this plan 13 

### will prevent less than 0.3 degrees Fahrenheit of 14 

### global warming 85 years from now. 15 

### According to the CFACT’s research, states 16 

### that rely on coal to heat and power their homes 17 

### currently pay eight to nine cents per kilowatt18 

### hour. Green energy states like California pay 19 

### fifteen to seventeen cents per kilowatt hour, 20 

### while renewable heavy countries such as Germany 21 

### and Denmark pay thirty-six to forty cents per 22131

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### kilowatt hour. Whether one thinks it is worth 1 

### the cost or not, it is clear that plans like this 2 

### will make it harder to pay those electricity 3 

### bills. 4 

### At least twelve states will have to 5 

### impose 40 to 48 percent reductions in emissions. 6 

### Those states now get between 50 and 96 percent of 7 

### their electricity from coal and nearly all of 8 

### their electricity from coal plants plus natural 9 

### gas. But under the CPP even more power plants 10 

### running on natural gas to replace coal plants 11


### would not be able to be counted as renewable. 12 

### When those energy bills become harder to 13 

### pay, employers have less wiggle room in their 14 

### budgets to hire recent graduates. Energy bills 15 

### affect every sector of the economy. 16 

### It will not just be only a specific major 17 

### of study that is affected by this, it will impact 18 

### all students. And I ask that you do not make the 19 

### difficult task of landing a job any more 20 

### difficult than it already is for us. 21 

### Again, I ask on behalf of CFACT’s 22132

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### students nationwide, and on behalf of my 1 

### generation, to reconsider this plan and the 2 

### impact that it will have on us through the job 3 

### market and future debt, in exchange for almost no 4 

### progress in reducing global temperatures. 5 

### Thank you. 6 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Would anyone 7 

### else like to speak at this time? 8 

### (No audible response) 9 

### MS. NOONAN: Okay. We will continue to 10 

### wait and be available until 5:00 o’clock. 11 

### (Whereupon, at 4:01 p.m., a short recess 12 

### was taken) 13 

### 4:10 p.m. 14 

### MS. NOONAN: Okay. We are going to start 15 

### back up. The hearing reconvenes. And we will 16 

### call Mr. John Shepard. Come to the table and you 17 

### will have five minutes to speak. You can just 18


### have a seat. 19


### MR. SHEPARD: Here? 20 

### MS. NOONAN: Yeah, right there. 21 

### MR. SHEPARD: Okay. 22133

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### MS. NOONAN: And you can have -- this is 1 

### the timer. And it is set for five minutes. And 2 

### so when it turns yellow, that means that you will 3 

### have one minute left. And I think that’s all. 4 

### And if you could start by spelling your first and 5 

### last name for the court reporter. 6 

### MR. SHEPARD: J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N, and last 7 

### name is S-H-E-P-A-R-D. 8 

### Ms. Noonan, would it be okay if you just 9 

### gave me a little bit of an orientation? I’m -- I 10 

### know this is open for public comment and I’m glad 11 

### to be here and grateful for the opportunity. So 12 

### thank you for being here. Who are you guys? 13


### MS. NOONAN: So we all work for the 14 

### Environmental Protection Agency. 15


### MR. SHEPARD: EPA. 16


### MS. NOONAN: We all work for EPA and we 17 

### all are part of the Air Office. The people who 18 

### are involved -- 19


### MR. SHEPARD: In D.C. or -- 20 

### MS. NOONAN: No. The regional office in 21 

### Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, which is 22134

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### where we are. And then we have also had folks 1 

### from D.C. who have sat on the panel throughout 2 

### the day. 3 

### MR. SHEPARD: Well, thank you for coming 4 

### in for this and welcome to snow land. 5 

### Okay. My name is Jonathan Shepard and I 6 

### am a registered professional engineer in the 7 

### State of Colorado, P.E. I am a registered lead 8 

### associate professional in building design and 9 

### construction from the United States Green 10 

### Building Counsel, which means leadership in 11 

### environmental efficient design. I am a certified 12 

### energy manager from the Society of American 13 

### Energy Engineers. I have a mechanical engineer 14 

### in building, optimizing energy efficiency 15 

### background, but I also have a lot of policy and 16 

### strategy under my belt as of now. 17 

### I’m also a candidate for a Masters in 18 

### Science for Global Energy Management from the 19 

### University of Colorado, Denver graduate school of 20 

### business. And I feel like it’s a little bit of a 21 

### civic duty to come and share on a public note. So 22135

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### I specialize in carbon and I also specialize in 1 

### what an energy person might think of as 2 

### downstream or demand side management. 3 

### So I’m here to say a few things to the 4 

### EPA that I have seen from the downstream side of 5 

### it. I know a lot of my colleagues are in 6 

### upstream EMP with oil, gas -- it’s thought of 7 

### differently in coal. But right now I have been 8 

### to London for two weeks and one of the last days 9 

### was in Oxford with the Oxford Institute on Energy 10 

### Studies which focuses globally on what’s going on 11 

### from a national sort of point of view, like how 12 

### can we get national policy instituted in certain 13



### areas. 14 

### India is a big issue and China is a big 15 

### issue. And so I’m trying to go a bit beyond CPP 16 

### with you for a second and asking you to encourage 17 

### your -- I’m not certain if this is appropriate, 18 

### like in network marketing they have upline and 19 

### downline. So go back and encourage your upline, 20 

### all the way up to Obama, to really take the lead 21 

### on this because we have seen EPA regulations 22136

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### within the past historically, the Clean Water 1 

### Act, The Clean Air Act, and then a regime comes 2 

### in or a presidential administration such as 3 

### Reagan, et cetera, and then just release all of 4 

### the enforcement. So what we saw was republicans 5 

### passed historically -- after the EPA was gung-ho 6 

### on doing all of this super fun cleanup, and I 7 

### have seen it here in Colorado especially and 8 

### Minnesota, which is, yeah, well, let’s just pass 9 

### some legislation on how that’s enforced, okay. 10 

### So if an emitter that is grandfathered in has a 11 

### lot of upgrading to do to comply with -- I don't 12 

### know if I’m saying the right jargon, please stop 13 

### me and ask for clarification -- does PM 2.5 ring 14 

### a bell for you guys? It’s just not stringent 15 

### enough these days. Have you seen Chasing Ice? 16 

### Do you know what’s going on with that? 17 

### Basically we have soot particulate 18 

### matter. And I have even heard from industry, 19 

### some people legally trying to get around it 20 

### saying soot, EPA doesn’t regulate soot. EPA 21 

### regulates air pollution. Soot, that’s not 22137

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### carbon, that’s not mercury or whatever. Well, 1 

### soot is -- just a recap on the Chasing Ice. This 2 

### is scientifically proven and not disputed now. 3 

### It acts as a heatsink for the sun’s 4 

### energy. It accumulates that energy and starts 5 

### melting ice immediately, and then bands together 6 

### other soot particles and the heatsink becomes 7 

### bigger. The holes actually penetrate hundreds of 8 

### feet through portions of the glacier. And we 9 

### have more than ninety-five percent of the Earth’s 10 

### glaciers receding -- melting. A lot of them are 11 

### gone. Maybe less than two percent are actually 12 

### increasing. But if you want the stats on that, 13 

### I’m not going to throw out any real factual data 14 

### that is going to dispute the truth. I’m just 15 

### saying, hey, it’s soot. That’s not from carbon 16 

### emissions, that’s not from greenhouse gases, this 17 

### is particulate matter 2.5. So we are not 18 

### stringent enough. So we’ve got to go and get 19 

### really stringent on that. 20 

### Now, where does the soot come from? One 21 

### hundred percent from coal burning. Now, can we 22138

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### regulate in the CPP, and then coming off where 1 

### the incentive plan to get going -- can we come in 2


### -- what can we do? 3 

### We can take the lead in China and India. 4 

### China is selling dirty coal sub critical plants 5 

### like crazy to India saying it’s going to bring up 6 

### economic opportunity for you. They are selling 7 

### it like crazy. This is going to bring you in the 8 

### new world. You’re a developing country and you 9 

### want to get to the first world, this is your 10 

### ticket. We have got to stop that, we have to 11 

### really take a big leadership hand. 12 

### Was that a minute left? 13 

### MS. NOONAN: Your five minutes are up, 14 

### sir, I’m sorry. 15 

### MR. SHEPARD: Oh, all right. So anyways, 16 

### I guess that is it then. Xcel is local -- let me 17 

### get fifteen seconds to wrap up. Xcel is local. 18 

### I just got back from London and apparently it’s 19 

### in the top fifteen dirtiest polluters in the 20 

### world. They are infamous. Xcel needs to get 21 

### their current coal converted to natural gas or 22139

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### just decommission immediately with no tolerance. 1 

### I’m just saying everything you’re doing is great. 2 

### Don’t give a second, don’t give an inch anywhere 3 

### with any of the states. Just keep blazing ahead. 4 

### But we need much more. And it’s up to you 5 

### whether you’re going to kick in subsidies for the 6 

### other types of programs, wind and solar. It’s 7 

### not really -- I’m in favor of CPP, I’m hoping 8 

### that our state takes the lead and enforces it 9 

### all. And the last thing is that hopefully if 10 

### other states choose not to, you will go ahead and 11 

### do a federal plan to make them. 12 

### MS. NOONAN: Okay. Great. 13 

### MR. SHEPARD: Thank you. 14 

### MS. NOONAN: Thanks you so much. 15 

### MR. SHEPARD: Sorry for going over. 16 

### MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Daniel Downs. 17 

### Okay. You will have five minutes, as you know, 18 

### with one minute left turning yellow. Okay. And 19 

### spell your first and last name. 20 

### MR. DOWNS: My name is Daniel Downs. 21 

### First name is D-A-N-I-E-L, last name is D-O-W-N- 22140

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### S. And then first of all, just thank you for 1 

### letting me be here today. It’s been a pleasure 2 

### listening to everyone talking and giving their 3 

### input. 4 

### I approve the EPA’s implementation of the 5


### Clean Power Plan. I’ve heard a lot about 6 

### thinking that the EPA is overstepping their 7 

### authority in implementing this plan. But I would 8 

### like to remind them that that’s the EPA 9 

### fulfilling its responsibilities in our 10 

### government. The market for energy has long 11 

### failed to take into account the externalities 12 

### that accompany the production of coal. And it 13 

### may appear cheap on the front end, a lot of the 14


### costs are born on the back end and aren’t 15 

### reflected in the price. We as consumers may pay 16 

### less in our electric bill but we pay for it with 17 

### our health and the environment. The reality is 18 

### that we pay a lot. 19 

### And these burdens don’t fall equally. 20 

### These extra externalities disproportionally fall 21 

### on the politically powerless and disadvantaged 22141

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### like Environmental Justice Communities. The EPA 1 

### must move forward with the CPP to fix with the 2 

### free market cannot and will not do. 3 

### MS. NOONAN: Okay. Well thank you. 4 

### (Whereupon, at 4:38 p.m., a short recess 5 

### was taken) 6 

### 5:00 p.m. 7 

### MS. NOONAN: This is Jenny Noonan and we are 8 

### closing out the public hearing. It is adjourned. 9 

### (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m. the public 10 

### hearing was adjourned.) 11

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