NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 1

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

+ + + + + 

 DEPARTMENT of AGRICULTURE 

+ + + + + 

 NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD 

+ + + + + 

"ACCESS TO PASTURE" 

 LISTENING SESSION 

+ + + + + 

OCTOBER 28, 2008 

+ + + + + 

 The above entitled listening session was 

convened in the Owasco Room, Holiday Inn, 75 

North St., Auburn, NY, at 9:13 a.m. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 2

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

(9:13 a.m.) 

 MR. MATHEWS: Thank you Ed. And, 

first I want to express my appreciation to Ed 

for all of the help that he has given -- every 

time I've called him up and said -Β Ed, what 

about this? What about that? Can you get me 

some data over here. Ed's always there to try 

to help out. And I appreciate the help that 

he has given and I also appreciate the 

invitation to come here. I was invited 

regardless of whether or not the Rule got out. 

 It was a real treat that we were able to get 

it out in time for me to come up. 

 First thing I want to say is that I 

seem to be wired here. I`ve got wires in the 

front, wires in the back, so I'd appreciate it 

if you would all drink the water right now. 

OK. You can say whatever you want. You can 

do whatever you want. Just please don't throw 

water. 

 OK, Ed. You said this would click. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 3

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Ed comes to the rescue again. 

 OK, the first thing I want to say 

is that we've got the livestock provisions, 

the origin of livestock, livestock feed, 

livestock health care practice standard, 

livestock living conditions that are already 

in the regulations. 

 Now, when it comes to the existing 

regulations, in my opinion, pasture is already 

addressed. We have pasture mentioned under 

livestock feed. We have pasture mentioned 

under livestock health care practice 

standards. There it talks about having 

pasture suitable to control disease and 

parasites. And then we have livestock living 

conditions where it talks about pasture and 

access to the out -- you know, access to 

pasture. What isn't showing up there is the 

definitions section where we also define 

pasture. 

 So right now you have Regulations 

that say, the animals are supposed to be on 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 4

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

pasture, they're supposed to be feeding on 

pasture. You got a definition of pasture that 

says that it provides food. And you've got 

healthcare practices saying that you have to 

control for parasites and disease. So pasture 

is already there. 

 Now what we have done in this 

massive docket is nothing more than flesh out 

what is already there with three exceptions. 

Those exceptions are: 30% DMI from pasture. 

Second, no more than 70% DMI from non-pasture. 

 And the third difference, new provision, is 

the requirement under this pasture practice 

standard that we've added that provides for a 

sacrificial pasture. So again, there's only 

three new provisions. Everything else is 

already in the regulations. We have done 

nothing but flesh it out. OK? 

 OK, we'll start out with 237 

Livestock feed. 237 has a few changes. 239 

has a lot of changes and then of course, 240 

is all brand new. Now what we've done is 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 5

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

we've taken the livestock feed provision and 

we've added the words, by operations certified 

to the NOP, except as provided in 

205.236(a)(ii) -- and that's the provision 

that allows for the whole herd conversion Βby operations certified to the NOP. So, why 

did we add that language? 

 We added that language because 

there are people out there who are trying to 

feed product that they call organic that is 

not certified organic. OK? So you get some 

people who are buying hay that they said was 

organic that was not from a certified 

operation. And then we have got the 

exception, except that nonsynthetic substances 

and synthetic substances allowed under 205.603 

may be used as feed additives and supplements. 

 Now we've changed that but it's really just 

the repositioning of the wording. 

 Some people thought that 

nonsynthetic substances and synthetic 

substances allowed under 205.603 went 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 6

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

together. So we've really reversed that. So 

it says that synthetic substances allowed 

under 205.603 and nonsynthetic substances may 

be used as feed additives and supplements. So 

it's just a clarification that you won't find 

nonsynthetics in 205.603. 

 Then here's a biggie, provided that 

all agricultural ingredients in such additives 

and supplements shall have been produced and 

handled organically. All agricultural 

products in livestock feed are required to be 

organic as it states up right at the very 

beginning. 

 As we move into 237(b), there's 

really no changes in the first several items. 

 This -- this text here is just what's already 

there. So, the producer of an organic 

operation must not, so we've added two. But 

again, these are just clarifications. Number 

seven is new language but it is not a new 

provision, provide feed or forage to which 

anyone, at anytime, has added an antibiotic. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 7

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 As we all know, antibiotics are 

prohibited in organic livestock production. 

But we have found through some compliance 

cases that antibiotics have been showing up in 

the feed. So this is a clarification that you 

cannot do that. Number eight is: prevent, 

withhold, restrain or otherwise restrict 

ruminate animals from actively obtaining feed 

grazed from pasture during the growing season, 

except for conditions as described under 

205.239(c). So that's not really a new 

provision either. 

 We've written a whole new section 

or paragraph within the section to better 

describe the requirements. And the first of 

those three new provisions shows right up here 

in (c): during the growing season, producers 

shall provide not more than an average of 70% 

of a ruminant's dry matter demand from dry 

matter fed, dry matter fed does not include 

dry matter grazed from vegetation rooted in 

pasture. Producers shall, once a month, on a 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 8

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

monthly basis go on and document this. 

 So the document for each feed 

ration, for each type of animal, each class of 

animals intended daily diet showing all 

ingredients, daily pounds of each ingredient 

per animal, each ingredient's percentage of 

the total ration, the dry matter percentage 

for each ingredient, and the dry matter pounds 

for each ingredient. Now we believe that you 

guys already do that. We believe that you 

already know what your feed rations are. 

 You also have to document the daily 

dry matter demand of each class of animal 

using the formula, average weight divided by 

the animal pounds times .03 equals the pounds 

dry matter per head per day times the number 

of animals equals the total dry matter demand 

in pounds per day. So we want you to know 

what your dry matter demand is for all -- for 

your animals as a whole. 

 Then you would document how much 

dry matter is fed daily to each class of 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 9

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

animal and then you would document the 

percentage of dry matter fed daily to each 

class of animal using the formula, dry matter 

fed divided by the matter demand in pounds per 

day times 100 which would give you the percent 

of dry matter fed. So, we've designed this so 

that you're going to figure out what your 70% 

is and then you're out grazing them for the 

rest of it. 

 Okay, from there move on to 239. 

As you noticed we didn't make any changes to 

238. We've moved for more clarification 

indicating that the producer of an organic 

livestock operation must establish and 

maintain, we've inserted the words, year-round 

livestock living conditions which accommodate 

the health and natural behavior of the 

animals, including those listed in paragraphs 

(a)(1) through (a)(3) of this section. 

 Further, producers shall not 

prevent, withhold, restrain, or otherwise 

restrict animals from being outdoors, except 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 10

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) and (c) 

of this section. 

 Producers shall also provide, now 

this is for year-round access for all animals 

to the outdoors, shade, shelter, exercise 

areas, fresh air, and we've added in water for 

drinking indoors and outdoors. We saw some 

cases where people weren't providing water 

when they had the animals outdoors. And 

direct sunlight, suitable to the species, its 

stage of life. 

 Now the important part there is 

that used to say stage of production and we 

had people who were saying well lactation is a 

stage of production which justifies not 

putting lactating cows on pasture because they 

have to be under such scrutiny by the 

veterinarians that they couldn't let them go 

out to pasture. And so the Board had 

recommended changing stage of production to 

stage of life and we've put that in there. 

The climate and the environment. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 11

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Now within 239 there's the access 

to pasture for ruminants. That's all it said. 

 As we all know, that was very loosely 

interpreted and so what we've done is we've 

proposed to some new language to replace those 

five short words. So now we are saying for 

all ruminants, continuous year-round 

management on pasture, except as otherwise 

provided in paragraph (c) of this section for: 

(i) grazing throughout the growing season and 

(ii) access to the outdoors throughout the 

year, including during the non-growing season. 

 And we say that dry lots and 

feedlots are prohibited. They've never been 

allowed. Okay? Dry lots and feedlots were 

never allowed. Especially the feedlots. 

 In fact, the NOSB had recommended 

as one of its suggested changes to the 

Regulations that we allow feedlots. Commoners 

were opposed to that and we've reinforced that 

here saying that the feedlots are not allowed. 

 Okay, here's 239 that talks about 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 12

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

appropriate clean dry bedding if the bedding 

is typically consumed by the animal species, 

it must comply with the feed requirements. 

Believe it or not, we had people manipulating 

the phraseology of this section. And their 

basic position was -- okay, well, I know that 

they'll eat that, but my cows are so well fed 

they won't eat their bed. Well, we've fixed 

that problem too. Appropriate clean, dry 

bedding. 

 When hay, straw, ground cobs or 

other crop matter typically fed to the animal 

species is used as bedding, it must comply 

with the feed requirements of 205.237. And as 

we know, that means the agricultural product 

has to be organic. So the people who were 

manipulating the wording of (3), under the 

proposed change, would no longer be able to 

perform that little manipulation of 

phraseology. 

 This language remains the same 

about shelter designated to provide for and -- 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 13

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to allow for. Then we go on to (b) and we 

have The producer of an organic livestock 

operation may provide temporary confinement 

for an animal because of. We've split this. 

And now we're proposing that the producer of 

an organic livestock operation may temporarily 

deny a non-ruminant access --animal access to 

the outdoors because of: inclement weather, 

the animal's stage of life that shows up 

again. 

 Remember I told you it used to say 

production. Conditions under which the 

health, safety and welfare --well-being of the 

animal could be jeopardized, or risk to soil 

or water. That now only applies to nonruminant. 

 We've added a new paragraph that 

addresses the ruminants. The producer of an 

organic livestock operation may temporarily 

deny a ruminant animal pasture under the 

following conditions: When the animal is 

segregated for treatment of illness or injury, 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 14

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the various life stages, such as lactation, 

are not illnesses or injury. 

 And as I stated earlier, we had 

people who were treating lactation as if it 

was an illness. (2) One week prior to 

parturition -- for people like me who 

originally didn't know quite what Hugh 

Karreman was talking about as birthing. Of 

course, all you guys know that. And I kind of 

had a hint myself. 

 During parturition, and up to one 

week after parturition; In the case of 

newborns for up to six months after which they 

must be on pasture and may no longer be 

individually housed. (4) In the case of goats, 

during periods of inclement weather. In the 

case of sheep, for short periods for shearing 

and finally, (6) In the case of dairy animals, 

for short periods daily for milking. And then 

we go on to say that milking must be scheduled 

in a manner to ensure sufficient grazing time 

to provide each animal with an average dry 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 15

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

matter intake from grazing of not less than 

30%. And as you recall, I said that's one of 

the three new provisions throughout the 

growing season. Milking frequencies or 

duration practices cannot be used to deny 

dairy animals pasture. 

 Then we've added another new 

paragraph within the reg. And it's ruminants 

must be provided with a lying area with wellmaintained clean, dry bedding, which complies 

with paragraph (a)(3) of this section, during 

periods of temporary housing, provided due to 

temporary denial of pasture during conditions 

listed in paragraphs (c)(1) through (c)(5) of 

this section. 

 Ruminants must be provided with 

yards and passageways kept in good condition 

and well-drained. They have to be provided 

with shade and in the case of goats, shelter 

open on at least one side. Water at all times 

except during short periods for milking or 

shearing, such water must be protected from 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 16

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

fouling. 

 Feeding and watering equipment that 

are designated or -- constructed and placed to 

protect from fouling such equipment must be 

cleaned weekly. And in the case of newborns, 

hay in a rack off the ground, beginning seven 

days after birth, unless on pasture, and 

pasture for grazing in compliance with 

205.240(a), which is a new provision, or it's 

-- it's a new section of the regs, but it's 

really old provisions -Β not later than six 

months after birth. 

 Now, I just show you this because 

there -- there was formerly a pasture -- or a 

passage that was labeled as (c), we've now 

labeled it as (e) because we've added the new 

(c) and (d). And then we've added another 

paragraph (f): The producer of an organic 

livestock operation must manage outdoor access 

areas, including pastures, in a manner that 

does not put soil or water quality at risk. 

 This includes the use of fences and 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 17

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

buffer zones to prevent ruminants and their 

waste products from entering ponds, streams, 

and other bodies of water. Buffer zone size 

shall be extensive enough, in full 

consideration of the physical features of the 

site, to prevent the waste products of 

ruminants from entering ponds, streams, and 

other bodies of water. 

 Again, this is not a new 

requirement. You've always had the 

requirement that you had to protect the crops, 

the soil and the water from contaminants. 

 Now we've got 240. This is the 

pasture practice standard that we've added to 

better clarify what is required. As you'll 

recall, there is a requirement for an organic 

systems planner. This is going to help you 

better tell us the operation that you are 

performing and provide your certifying agent 

with the details that are necessary for the 

certifying agent to know whether or not you 

are in compliance. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 18

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 The producer of an organic 

livestock operation must, for all ruminant 

livestock on the operation, demonstrate 

through auditable records in the organic 

systems plan, a functioning management plan 

for pasture that meets all requirements of 

Sections 205.200 through 205.240. Pasture 

must be managed as a crop in full compliance 

with 205.200 through 205.206. 

 The producer must develop and 

annually update a comprehensive pasture plan 

for inclusion in the producer's organic system 

plan. When there is no change to the previous 

year's comprehensive pasture plan the 

certified operation may resubmit the previous 

year's comprehensive pasture plan. The 

comprehensive pasture plan must include a 

detailed description of crops to be grown in 

the pasture and haymaking system. Cultural 

practices, including but not limited to 

varying the crops and their maturity dates in 

the pasture system, to be used to insure 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 19

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

pasture of a sufficient quality and quantity 

is available to graze throughout the growing 

season and to provide all ruminants under the 

organic systems plan with an average of not 

less than 30% of their dry matter intake from 

grazing throughout the growing season. 

 So you can see we've raised the 30% 

DMI issue once again. The plan also has to 

detail the haymaking system. It needs to 

detail the location of pasture and haymaking 

fields, including maps showing the pasture and 

haymaking system and giving each field its own 

identity. 

 This really isn't new. You're 

already doing that for crops. And pasture is 

a crop. The types of grazing methods to be 

used in the pasture system, the location and 

types of fences and the location and source of 

shade and water, the soil fertility, seeding, 

and crop rotation systems, the pest, weed, and 

disease control practices, The erosion control 

and protection of natural wetlands, riparian 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 20

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

areas, and soil and water quality practices, 

pasture and soil sustainability practices, and 

restoration of pasture practices. Those are 

all the things that need to be in your organic 

systems plan. 

 Now this is the third of the new 

items. The pasture system must include a 

sacrificial pasture for grazing to protect the 

other pastures from excessive damage during 

periods when saturated soil conditions render 

the pastures too wet for animals to graze. 

Why were we concerned with that? Because 

there are actually producers out there who 

were using just about any amount of water 

falling from the sky as an excuse not to put 

their animals on pasture. And they were 

saying -- well that was too wet for the 

pasture. 

 Now, the sacrificial pasture must 

be sufficient in size to accommodate all 

animals in the herd without crowding. Needs to 

be located where soils have good 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 21

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

trafficability, well drained, there's a low 

risk of soil erosion, there is a low or no 

potential of manure runoff, surrounded by 

vegetated areas and easily restored. Managed 

to provide feed value and maintain or improve 

soil, water and vegetative resources. 

Restored through active pasture management. 

In addition to the above producers must manage 

pasture to comply with all applicable 

requirements of the remaining sections -- or 

the other sections of the livestock provisions 

which are 205.236 through 205.239. 

 Now, with all these changes we felt 

there needed to be some changes in the 

definitions. The first one is for crop. It 

used to say a plant or part of a plant 

intended to be marketed as an agricultural 

product or fed to livestock. We had 

certifying agents who had actually agreed with 

their clients or who had told their clients, 

one or the other that this definition of crop 

enabled them to not have to have organic seeds 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 22

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

for cover crops because of the way the seed 

provisions are written in the Regulations. 

 So what we did to clarify that 

pasture is a crop, that sod is a crop that 

cover crops, green manure crops are all, and 

catch crops are all crops -- we've added them 

to the definition. So it would now read 

pastures, sod, cover crops, green manure 

crops, catch crops, and any plant or part of 

the plant intended to be marketed as an 

agricultural product, fed to livestock, or 

used in the field to manage nutrients in soil 

fertility. So that closed the loophole that 

some were trying to use. 

 Okay, we felt we needed to define 

dry matter. So we've added the definition of 

dry matter the amount of a feedstuff remaining 

after all the free moisture is evaporated out. 

 We felt we needed to define dry lot. We've 

defined that as a confined area that may be 

covered with concrete, but that has no 

vegetative cover. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 23

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Feedlot, a confined area for the 

controlled feeding of ruminants. And as I 

said earlier, that's not allowed. Never has 

been allowed. 

 Graze, the consumption of standing 

forage by livestock, to put livestock to feed 

on standing forage. 

 And grazing is defined as to graze. 

 We've defined growing season, the 

period of time between the average date of the 

last killing frost in the spring to the 

average date of the first killing frost in the 

fall or early winter in the local area of 

production. This represents a temperature 

threshold of 28°F, 3.9°C or lower at a 

frequency of five years in 10. Growing 

seasons may range from 121 days to 365 days. 

You'll recall that the Board had recommended 

120 days and that was based on people like 

yourselves saying that there had to be at 

least 120 days grazing. 

 We've gone one better by defining 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 24

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

it as the growing season. Otherwise you would 

have had parts of the country where they could 

have housed the animals for 245 days out of 

the year, but only had to put them out for 

120. So we've defined it as a growing season 

rather than going with the 120 days. 

 Also, there was never a definition 

for inclement weather. Now we are proposing 

that the definition of inclement weather read, 

weather that is violent or characterized by 

temperatures, high or low, that can kill or 

cause permanent physical harm to a given 

species of livestock. 

 And because growing season refers 

to the killing frost, we've defined killing 

frost, a frost that takes place at 

temperatures between 25° and 28°F, -2.2 and -

3.3°C for a period sufficiently severe to end 

the growing season or delay its beginning. 

 Now this definition of sacrificial 

pasture is essentially the same as the 

language that's in the regulatory text itself 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 25

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

in the new section 240. Sacrificial pasture, 

a pasture or pastures within the pasture 

system of sufficient size to accommodate all 

animals in the herd without crowding, where 

animals are kept for short periods during 

saturated soil conditions to confine pasture 

damage to an area where potential 

environmental impacts can be controlled. This 

pasture is then deferred from grazing until it 

has been restored through active pasture 

management. 

 Sacrificial pastures are located 

where soils have good trafficability, are well 

drained, have low risk of soil erosion, have 

low or no potential of manure runoff, are 

surrounded by vegetative areas, and are easily 

restored. A sacrificial pasture is land used 

for livestock grazing that is managed to 

provide feed value and maintain or improve 

soil, water and vegetative resources. It is 

not a dry lot or feedlot. 

 Now, we also have had lots of 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 26

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

questions in the past about what is temporary, 

what is temporarily. So we've added the 

definition of what is temporary and 

temporarily. That's occurring for a limited 

time only for example, overnight throughout a 

storm, during a period of illness, the period 

of time specified by the administrator -- 

that's the administrator of the AMS -- when 

granting a temporary variance. It's not 

permanent or lasting. 

 Okay, the definition of livestock 

does not currently coincide with the 

definition of livestock that's in the Organic 

Foods Production Act of 1990. And that's 

because the old definition excludes bees and 

it also excludes aquatic species. The problem 

with the definition in the regs as it is is 

that we've always said that you can have 

organic honey. And if you're gonna have 

organic honey, you gotta have organic bees. 

So, we have brought or are proposing to bring 

the definition of livestock in line with the 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 27

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Organic Foods Production Act. 

 Livestock, any bee, cattle, sheep, 

goats, swine, poultry, equine animals used for 

food or in the production of food, fiber, 

feed, or other agricultural based consumer 

products. Fish used for food, wild or 

domesticated game, or other non-plant life. 

That's how it appears in the Organic Foods 

Production Act. 

 Okay, the only change here is that 

it used to say in the second line there, where 

it says, at the very end, through 2000 -- 

205.240. That used to say 205.239. Any time 

that we make changes in the regulations that 

affect the numbering system, we have to go 

through the regs to make sure we update the 

numbering system that may occur someplace 

else. And this section -- this paragraph here 

was always intended to reference all of the 

livestock provisions. And so by adding new 

section 240, we had to change the 239 to a 

240. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 28

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 This one is a controversial issue 

which if I had known back in the summer of 

2006 when I first started writing this, that 

it would take this long to get it out, I would 

not have included it. Because I think the 

issue has died down. But it had to do with a 

clarification for (iii) once-- the section-- 

section 236 was amended because of the Harvey 

lawsuit. 

 So this really doesn't have any 

impact on pasture, but it does have an impact 

as far as the origin of livestock. And that 

impact is that it's really no impact because 

we are working on a separate rule on origin of 

livestock. But this will give you an 

opportunity if you would like, to provide us 

with some comments and preferably data related 

to origin of livestock. Okay? 

 Now what-- what this says and it's 

intended just as a clarification of the old 

language. Once an operation has been 

certified for organic production using the 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 29

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

exception in paragraph (a)(2)(i) or (ii) of 

this section, all dairy animals brought onto 

the operation shall be under organic 

management from the last third of gestation. 

It continues the two-track system. Okay? It 

was just a clarification that the two-track 

still exists. 

 But again, I emphasize we are 

working on separate rulemaking to address this 

issue. So, don't get too excited about it -- 

other than the fact that I acknowledge along 

with you that the rulemaking process takes 

entirely too long. 

 And with that, I've gone through 

all of the slides I had, and so at this point 

I'll -- I'm going to just make a couple of 

additional comments and then I'll turn it over 

to all of you. First of all, we have a court 

reporter here who has been recording this and 

he'll record all of your comments. We need to 

make sure that everybody who is here has 

signed in. So if you have not signed in, 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 30

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

please do so. When you come up to the 

microphone to speak, please clearly state your 

name. And I would also like for you to tell 

me what is your connection to organic 

dairying. 

 If you are a certifying agent, tell 

me you are a certifying agent. If you are a 

dairy farmer, tell me about the fact that you 

are a dairy farmer. I'm not going to put a 

time limit on your presentation. But, not 

knowing how many people are going to want to 

speak, we should probably all be aware of the 

fact that I was the only one giving a speech 

today. Okay? 

 But, I won't cut you off unless you 

really get kind of carried away and say that 

we've got -- you know, if we've got 15 people 

in line, we want to give everyone an 

opportunity. The other thing is that this 

runs until 12 o'clock. Well, not for me. 

Okay? If you want to stay beyond 12 o'clock 

in order to give everybody an opportunity to 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 31

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

speak, we'll stay beyond 12 o'clock. The 

court reporter is prepared to stay all day. 

I'm prepared to stay all day. Lisa may not 

want us to stay all day. But we're prepared 

to stay all day. 

 So we will stay until everybody has 

had their opportunity to speak. Okay? And Ed 

tells me this is a bad idea, but at about 

10:30, we will take a 10 minute break. Okay? 

 Because we all need to move around. We're 

not getting much access to the outdoors, and 

we may have to take care of some business. So 

I'm going to give everybody a 10 minute break. 

 But when I say a 10 minute break, I mean a 10 

minute break. We will start without you. 

Okay? With that, have at it. Just, again, no 

water please. 

 AUDIENCE MEMBER: Richard, where is 

the sign-up sheet? 

 MR. MALTBY: For those attendants of 

one of the Field Days, they're already signed 

up. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 32

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. MATHEWS: So you-- 

 MR. MALTBY: There is a sign-up 

sheet over by the microphones, and there is 

also one just out here where Nora is sitting 

in registration. So you'll have time to signup either when you go up to make a comment, or 

outside here on the registration table. But 

for those NODPA registered, you're already 

signed in. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I can't believe that. 

 Alright, we got Henry coming up. Come on up 

there Henry. Are you signed in Henry? 

 MR. MALTBY: Yes. 

 MR. PERKINS: Why of course. 

 MR. MATHEWS: OK, the sign-up 

sheets that you did for NODPA need to get to 

our court reporter as well. A copy of them 

please. The other thing is that when you tell 

me you are a dairy farmer, maybe you can give 

me a little indication of the size of your 

dairy farm, that would be very helpful. 

 MR. PERKINS: Ready? I'm Henry 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 33

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Perkins I am a dairy farmer from the state of 

Maine. I milk about 60 cows and I have 

recently become President of NODPA, so I 

assume that it's my place to tell you how 

gratified we are to have you work on this 

rule. We knew that you were trying to plug 

some serious loopholes in the -- in the 

operation. 

 And I was advised to be very, very 

careful on what I said. So I'm going to be 

very, very vague and just say there are some 

areas of improvement that we would like to 

see, but we have not studied them in depth 

enough to -- I haven't got any specific things 

right now, but I'm sure that there are others 

that are following me that will get a little 

bit more specific. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Anybody else? 

 MS. GRIFFIN: My name is Siobhan 

Griffin. Is this the right mic? 

 MR. MATHEWS: It's working for the 

court reporter and the-- 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 34

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: -- and the video 

people. 

 MS. GRIFFIN: I'm an organic dairy 

farmer and I'm very happy that this Rule has 

been passed. I think -- and I'd like to thank 

Mr. Mathews for all his work on it. The rule 

makes it clear that organic dairy cows should 

be on pasture and that is what my consumers 

want. I do not think that the 30% dry matter 

requirement will be a hardship for any organic 

dairy. 

 My cows, right now, we -- during a 

120 day growing season in a summer, our cows 

are getting 60 to 80% of their dry matter from 

pasture and then -- there is an additional two 

months at either end of the growing season 

where it goes down to 30%, so we are well -- 

easily in the ballpark. I've been doing the 

organic for 10, 11 years, my 11th growing 

season has just finished, so I can tell you 

that achieving the 30% dry matter won't be an 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 35

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

economic hardship because we spent less than 

3% of our total farm expenses on fencing 

materials, plumbing for the pastures. 

 And all the labor to put that fence 

up came from my on-farm labor which would have 

otherwise been busy spreading manure and 

feeding cows on tractors. And we took the 

time involved to do those chores and added it 

to expanding the fencing program because the 

cows were on pasture and spreading their own 

manure and getting fed. So, that was a wash. 

 

 In the last several years we've won 

milk quality awards every year and I attribute 

that to the pasture because the cows get a 

clean pasture every 12 hours during the 

grazing season. They come in for milking with 

spotless udders, or very clean udders. And I 

believe that is why we've achieved our high 

milk quality. It is worth, on my farm, with 

our 80-100 cows, it is worth between $8000 and 

$10,000 a year. Which more than covers the 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 36

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

cost of putting the whole pasture system up 

and running. 

 I believe it is the grazing system 

on my farm that makes my farm profitable in 

the organic system. I know for a fact, my 

farm has never made money in the winter, 

because the cows are not on pasture. So, I'm 

all for the pasture rule. I've also 

considered the sacrifice pasture and I feel 

that if you have a good grazing program in 

place, you already have pastures that you can 

use in bad weather, they're your dryer 

pastures. I have several that we can use and 

I don't think that will be a problem. So, I 

support the rule. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? 

 MR. NELSON: Ed, is there any way 

that we can have a mic so we can hear the 

soft-spoken more clearly? 

 MR. MATHEWS: I tell you what, I'll 

hand mine off. Thank you for the suggestion. 

 MR. BENSON: If I wasn't nervous 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 37

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

already, I am now. My name is Fay Benson. I 

was an organic dairy farmer from 1997 to 2003. 

 At that time, I started working for Cornell 

extension as a grazing educator. And I now 

manage New York's organic dairy initiative -- 

or New York Organic Dairy Initiative. I just 

had a question, and I hope I didn't miss this 

when-- before I got here. But on paragraph 

205.237, it's quite a lengthy description that 

would now read, the producer of an organic 

livestock operation must provide livestock 

with a total feed ration composed of 

agricultural products, including pasture and 

forage, that are organically produced by 

operations certified to the NOP, except as 

provided in 205.236, and if applicable, 

organically handled by operations certified by 

the NOP. 

 Now Richard, do I need to continue 

reading that -- my question is it's -- it goes 

on to -- a little bit, it confuses me in how 

it's written. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 38

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. MATHEWS: You're in 237. You're 

talking 237(a), correct? 

 MR. BENSON: Yes. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Well, basically what 

this -- the changes here are to -- you're 

always -- always have been required to feed 

organic agricultural products 100% to your 

livestock. But it has allowed feed additives 

and feed supplements to go along with it. And 

the language was that nonsynthetic and then 

also synthetic and it referred to a section 

number. And what we did was we reversed that 

language because there was confusion that some 

people thought that the non-synthetics were 

also in 205.603, and there are no nonsynthetics in 205.603, they're all synthetics. 

 So we reversed the language there to clarify 

that. The other thing that we did was that -- 

hey Ed, can you get me back to that slide? 

 Okay. Part of the problem as I 

mentioned before, was that there are some 

people who were buying, for example, hay from 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 39

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

people who claimed to be producing organically 

and then they were feeding that to their 

livestock. Well, if you are not certified as 

organic, you -- those animals can't get that 

feed, because you can't buy that. You can 

only buy feed for your animals from certified 

operations. And so we had to put in some 

language there to clarify that it has to come 

from a certified operation. Now does that 

help? Or do we need more? 

 MR. BENSON: I guess -- it was the 

ending of that, that all agricultural 

ingredients in such additives and supplements 

shall have been produced and handled 

organically -- removing the word or -- we 

propose amending -- I'm trying to get to the 

part that -- the new paragraph would prohibit 

producers from providing feed or forage to 

which anyone, at anytime, has added an 

antibiotic. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. 

 MR. BENSON: I mean, that needed 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 40

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

clarification? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Unfortunately, 

yes. I see where you are going now. It's the 

next slide down. There we go. Yes, 

unfortunately that did need clarification 

because we have actually had some cases 

involving chickens, where we -- where it was 

detected that there was antibiotics in the 

chickens. Okay? It tested positive for 

antibiotics. When we went out and 

investigated, we found that the producer had 

not given his chickens any antibiotics. What 

it turned out to be was that the antibiotics 

came from the feed that the organic farmer had 

purchased. And so we felt, or at least I did 

-- I felt that it was important to say that, 

you know, antibiotics are prohibited including 

in the feed. Does that help? 

 MR. BENSON: That helps. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Again a lot of 

these little changes that you are seeing, 

little clarifications, they're related to 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 41

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

compliance cases that we've had in the past. 

And we've included them here in the Pasture 

Rule for clarification. 

 Next? 

 MR. MALTBY: That mic works. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Oh, it does? 

 MR. MALTBY: Yes. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. 

 MS. PITTFIED: Hello. My name is 

Liz Pittfield and I'm from The Weston A. Price 

Foundation. We have -- we're setting up a 

table in the foyer. It's so nice to hear the 

voice of a friend. We are serious proponents 

of traditional farming, grass fed. And it's 

nice to see someone working so hard on a 

document that's helping. So I just wanted to 

say thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? You can 

line up, by the way. 

 MR. MORRISON: Hi, I'm Steve 

Morrison, an organic dairy farmer from Maine. 

 We milk about 65 cows and we are hugely 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 42

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

satisfied to see the -- the proposed rule here 

on pasture to clarify the one time vague 

pasture requirement for organic dairy cows. 

The improvement in the rule, hopefully, that 

this -- that this proposed Rule will represent 

will -- will be a huge benefit to the 

consumers' trust in the integrity of the 

organic -- the organic seal that the USDA has 

on organic products nationwide. And I think 

that the economic benefit to us as organic 

producers will be tremendous as a result of 

this rule. And I appreciate it very much. 

Thank you. 

 MR. MALTBY: And just as a 

reminder, feel free to go up to the mic and 

ask questions -- clarifying questions. If 

Richard doesn't think that he should answer 

them because of ex parte. Richard is not shy 

about saying what he can and can't answer. But 

questions are good. And it's not often that we 

get a somebody out of D.C. to come out and 

speak directly to us. He doesn't bite. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 43

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. MATHEWS: No, but Mary Howe's 

cows do eat the pigs. And by the way, she's 

no longer organic. Hey, I've had plenty of 

antibiotics in my life. This one had my hand 

in its mouth up to my wrist. She was a 

sweetheart. That was Chrissy? Okay. Go 

ahead Emily. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: My name is Emily 

Brown-Rosen, and I work with Pennsylvania 

Certified Organics, so I'm a certifier, the 

policy director. Anyway, I have some 

questions. I think echo the sentiment here 

that we are extremely glad to see this rule 

published after so much hard work and it's 

obviously needed, so -- questions or just, 

trying to get at what, you know, we are 

actually are talking about here and we all 

will probably be contributing to try and clean 

up a few points we think could be, of course, 

improved. But, we are generally very happy. 

 Okay, so my question is about 

inclement weather. It seems to say that 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 44

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

there's no longer an exception for ruminant, 

you know, animals, for cows to be held inside 

for inclement weather. It also says that cows 

must have continuous year-round access to 

pasture, on managed pasture and it also 

requires sacrificial pastures. It also says 

that dry lots are prohibited and feedlots are 

prohibited. So the question is, what happens 

when we've got 3 feet of snow, we've got ice -

- we have NRCS -- like we saw yesterday an 

NRCS funded barnyard that's, you know, well 

designed, well drained with concrete gravel, 

people have gone to a lot of effort to protect 

their streams and waterways, are those now 

forbidden? Is that the plan? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Well the regs would 

prohibit feedlots and dry lots. Yes. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: So what about 

barnyards? Is that comparable -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Are they part of a 

pasture? 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: No, in the winter 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 45

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

they might be the only outdoor access though, 

for a lot of farmers. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Well, we would 

probably look at that as a dry lot. We are 

intending from these regs for the cows to be 

outdoors year-round. Essentially 24 hours a 

day except for the provisions that are there 

for bringing them in on a temporary basis. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: That's what I 

thought. Thank you. 

 MS. BAWDEN: Hi, my name is Liz 

Bawden and I'm a dairy producer. My family 

and I have a small herd and we milk about 60 

cows, plus the young stock in northern New 

York. We are enthusiastic supporters of the 

pasture policy and -- and think that this is a 

wonderful tool and a wonderful thing that it 

finally clarifies what the original rule 

stated, in essence, years ago. We've been 

certified since 2000 with NOFA New York, and 

actually because NOFA interpreted the original 

Rule much the same way, this does not really 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 46

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

impact our operation as it stands-- in the way 

in which we pasture and feed our animals. 

 My question for clarification 

actually is similar to Emily's. We are in far 

northern New York-- from a gardening or crop 

perspective, they call it a zone three. So, 

zone three means the minimum temperature is 

about 40 below zero in the wintertime. And he 

can get that cold. So, I too looked at 

section 205.239, Section (c) where it does not 

seem to allow any temporary restriction of 

outdoor access due to inclement, extreme 

weather conditions. And I'm wondering if I'm 

missing something or if that is actually the 

intent? 

 MR. MATHEWS: That's the intent. 

That they be outside at all times. 

 MS. BAWDEN: Okay, well I suppose 

my comments would be that there -- that there 

perhaps should be an exclusion for temporarily 

-- and I understand where these things can be 

so misused, but, in our case that would be an 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 47

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

important issue in our farm. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay, I think what I 

would say if you want inclement weather for 

the ruminants, you need to help us understand 

what inclement weather is -- in the case of 

the rules. I know that there will be people 

concerned about temperature and humidity. 

There will be people concerned about cold. 

But the real challenge there is putting the 

fence, so to speak, around what does qualify 

and how long will they be in? So, if you can 

comment on that -- 

 MR. BAERWOLF: Hi, my name is James 

Baerwolf. I dairy in -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Technical 

difficulties. But back on the previous 

commenter, you got comments on that, please 

submit them to us. And give us the details as 

to what you think it should be. And why it 

should be the way that you are proposing. Go 

ahead sir. 

 MR. BAERWOLF: All right. My name 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 48

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

is James Baerwolf. I dairy in Wisconsin. We 

have 120 cows. I feel that the pasture 

ordinances are very important and they 

continue to become more important as dairying 

changes to keep pace with what consumers are 

interested in. In our case, we just built a 

milk bottling plant and since May I currently 

have 12 part-time and full-time employees. 

So, now, no longer does just my family and our 

livelihood rely on the fair playing field for 

all organic dairies, but also my employees. 

And anybody -- any other employees from 

farmers that are interested in doing value 

added projects related to dairy, it becomes 

increasingly important as well. 

 MR. JOHNSON: My name is Dave 

Johnson, I have an organic dairy in north 

central PA. Milking somewhere between 50 and 

100 cows, depending on how ambitious I am. I 

actually started dairying back in 2000 and a 

pasture based system was the only way that I 

thought it was financially feasible to enter 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 49

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the dairy business at this time. And I think 

my experience to date using managed pasture 

has proven to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, 

that pasture based production reduced material 

handling. It is not only environmentally 

friendly and economically makes a lot of 

sense, but I really think it is the future of 

our nutrition and our food system. 

 I wanted to just thank you, 

Richard, for an awful lot of hard work. I 

look at this Regulation and I can see at least 

a little bit of understanding why it took so 

long to get out. I can't totally see that, 

but, I understand you have spent a lot of time 

and a lot of effort to try to carefully define 

what is meant by pasture. Fortunately, I have 

been working with a certifier all along that 

knew what pasture was, so I don't see any 

major changes in my operation in utilizing 

pasture. So, I really appreciate what you've 

done in terms of trying to clarify this and to 

really make the playing field level for all of 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 50

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

us. That is so important that when a consumer 

buys something that's certified organic that 

they know that it's been produced according to 

the rules and it's an equivalent product to 

something else that says certified organic on 

it. 

 In terms of the rules, and there is 

an awful lot to digest here, you know, I -- 

the thing that specifically came to mind that 

I was scratching my head on is this definition 

or understanding of a sacrificial pasture. 

Because I look at that and I envision in my 

environment that a sacrificial paddock in a 

couple days could turn into the definition of 

a dry lot or feedlot, under saturated soil 

conditions. And then I could move to the next 

sacrificial paddock and in a matter of a 

couple of months with the wrong weather 

patterns, I would have my whole farm turned 

into a sacrificial paddock. 

 And I look at the sacrificial 

paddock portion of the rule and I'm also 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 51

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

looking at the whole context of the organic 

rule that seems to emphasize the well-being of 

the soil, the environment and the livestock. 

And I see a little incongruity with those two 

things. Especially in light of all of the 

efforts that NRCS and our soil and water 

conservation folks have been encouraging us to 

do to try to come up with a high use area that 

doesn't impact the environment in a negative 

way. 

 So, from climate conditions, to me 

it seems like we need to try to strike that 

right balance between providing the animals 

access the pasture, and by the way, I live in 

a northern climate and the weather is severe. 

 My animals are outside 365 days a year. And 

they are on pasture probably at least 300 plus 

of those days. So, the areas that I have used 

exclusively with no pastures has been very, 

very limited. But I still scratch my head and 

wonder how can I meet the requirements of 

continuous pasture, 365 days a year, without 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 52

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

creating that dry lot/feedlot condition that 

seems to be prohibited. 

 So, I think we have some challenges 

ahead in trying to understand and define what 

that means with the whole spirit and intent of 

the law. And I think it would maybe be 

something to consider of allowing some -- a 

little more understanding of the -- the 

certifier's and working with the whole organic 

system plan to come up with an appropriate 

system for that particular farm and climate in 

light of the whole organic system plan for 

protecting the environment and soil and the 

well-being of the animals. Again, thank you 

very much for your work. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. And Dan, I 

would encourage you to follow up your comments 

with maybe some written comments that tell us 

how to do what you're asking us to do. Next? 

 MS. SODER: I'm Kathy Soder with 

the USDA Ag Research Service. I am an animal 

scientist conducting pasture based dairy and 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 53

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

livestock research. And looking over it, 

you've done a lot of wonderful things. I've 

been following this for a long time. My one 

concern is with the dry matter intake 

calculation with the 3% across-the-board. And 

now I would suggest that not all of these 

animals are eating 3% of their body weight. 

 If you look at the NRC and other 

research, a 1000 pound growing large frame 

Wolstein type heifer is not consuming the same 

amount per bodyweight -- pound per bodyweight 

as 1000 pound dry animal versus a 1000 pound 

lactating animal. And then we can even go 

further saying a 30 pound of milk versus a 50, 

but anyway, I think there may need to be some 

differentiation there because you can raise 

from 2% to 3.5% of bodyweight, which easily 

gets more than 10% total change in the dry 

matter intake, which could put people if 

they're thinking they're at 30-- and I realize 

people should go over that, but if somebody 

thinks they're providing 30-35% dry matter 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 54

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

from pasture and suddenly they're at 25% and 

getting themselves in trouble, but I think 

maybe we need some differentiation there. If 

nothing else, maybe referring back to a 

standard like the NRC for that class 

bodyweight production stage of that animal. 

But just for some clarification on that point. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. And again, I 

would say follow that up with a written 

comment, and directions to where to go. 

 MR. SNYDER: This will be easy 

after that. I'm Jerry Snyder from Alfred 

Station, New York. I've been a dairy farmer 

since 1978. I graduated from Alfred State 

College. I've always pastured my cows. We 

have a hill farm. Grass and hay is what I've 

fed them since 1978. When the organic milk 

market came, I converted to organic in 2002. 

We continued to graze our cows. I would like 

to thank you for what you've done in 

clarifying the pasture rule. My cows love 

grass. They're happy. We have very few 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 55

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

problems. It's the natural way. As a matter 

of fact, before the organic term, before 

organic food became popular, so to speak, this 

was the way my grandfather farmed. This was 

the way all farmers farmed. And it's good to 

see us getting back to our roots. It's good 

to see the cows getting back on grass. We 

milk about 50 cows. My wife and I have seven 

children who are running the farm right now. 

We're venturing into raw milk. We have a 

store on the farm where we sell our own grass 

fed organic beef, organic maple syrup, apples 

and cider and walnuts. I see good things in 

store and I just want to thank you for your 

work on this. It makes our product have the 

integrity that it needs. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Surely there must be 

more. Okay. 

 MR. BENSON: Fay Benson, again. 

Just a couple comments more. I'm wondering if 

maybe, I understand the problem in that this 

sacrifice pasture rule. If we were to look at 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 56

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the livestock pasture rule as only taking 

place during the growing season, that would 

make it a little simpler. Is that how the 

pasture rule is looked at? That it does -- 

it's not concerned with the part of the season 

that's not the growing season? 

 MR. MATHEWS: The intent is to have 

the animals outside 365 days out of the year. 

 I mean, before it was access to the pasture, 

but they were required to have access to the 

outdoors as well. And so, we've written it so 

that they have access to pasture for grazing 

throughout the growing season and access to 

the pasture for the remaining part of the year 

as well. The idea is for the girls to be 

outdoors. 

 MR. BENSON: Right. And I think 

that's always was in the certification 

standards that I've followed. It is during 

that winter, when there're only able to say 

outside for two to three hours before it 

becomes, you know, a hardship for the animal. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 57

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 So that if maybe the dry lot, the feedlot 

rule was not in place during the non-growing 

season, it would help follow these rules 

easier for the farmers and the girls. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. I would ask you 

to flesh that out a little bit more-- 

 MR. BENSON: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: -- and send it into 

us through regs.gov. 

 MR. BENSON: Okay. The other 

comment or question actually is, have you 

looked at what the impact if this rule is 

enacted, what's the impact going to be on the 

supply of organic milk? 

 MR. MATHEWS: We're hoping you'll 

tell us. 

 MR. BENSON: Because I assume 

everybody in this room, we're expecting that 

there's going to be thousands of cows that are 

going to be removed from the organic dairy 

market. Has that been discussed at all? 

 MR. MATHEWS: No. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 58

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. BENSON: Okay. Thank you. 

 MS. ENGELBERT: Hi, my name is Lisa 

Engelbert. I am the Dairy program 

administrator for NOFA New York Certified 

Organic in Binghamton, New York. Working with 

about 225 Dairy farms. Also, a certified 

organic dairy producer with my husband Kevin 

and our three sons in Nichols. Milk 120 cows. 

 First of all, we know as producers 

how much we've been pulling our hair out over 

the last three or four years. I can't imagine 

the headaches you've had going through this 

process. Thank you, very much. For what 

you've done. All in all, as a farmer, I think 

it's a very good rule. I am concerned about 

the inclement weather. I think there's going 

really need to be a provision in there where 

ruminant animals can be confined when the 

welfare of those animals is in danger. 

 I know in New York State, we have 

got so many different areas where -- in the 

southern tier where we are, we won't have a 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 59

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

problem meeting this rule at all. But in the 

north country and in the snow belt areas, it's 

going to be dangerous for cows to be outside 

in certain times of the year. There's no 

doubt about that. I know up in the north 

country, as Liz said, they get down to, you 

know, sometimes 40 below zero with pretty 

nasty winds that could put the wind chill down 

pretty low. You're going to have frozen teats 

on cows. 

 It's going to really -- their 

energy levels -- you're going to have to feed 

them additional energy sources to, you know, 

keep their body temperature up in a situation 

like that and to keep any kind of milk 

production up. So we're going to have to 

probably tweak that a little bit. 

 I'm thrilled to see the 

clarification on bedding. We've always 

required organic bedding. They're quite a few 

certifier's operating within New York and 

there have been a couple that haven't, and our 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 60

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

producers have hammered us on that. Well they 

don't have to have organic bedding, how come 

we do? I'm thrilled with that, so thank you 

for that. 

 The origin of livestock thing, I'd 

kind of like to have that not included in this 

and not even have the wording changed from 

what it is, while you hash out the other 

thing. That's the next really, really, really 

big issue that we're going to be dealing with. 

 So hopefully that won't take as long as this 

one did. So I guess that's all I have. Just 

thank you very much to you and to the other 

people at the NOP for all the work that has 

gone into this. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. With the 

inclement weather, please do send in further 

comment on that. And it just dawned on me 

that we actually had addressed snow and ice at 

one point and I don't really remember why 

that's not in there. I think it may have been 

an accidental deletion. But we had intended 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 61

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

originally to provide that when it's too much 

snow or ice that the animals would be able to 

come in. So, I don't know where we lost that 

along the line. 

 MS. ENGELBERT: Well, the new 

definition of inclement weather does include 

highs and lows in weather extremes. Or 

temperature extremes. I kind of have felt 

that might cover it a little bit, but-- 

 MR. MATHEWS: It's only mentioned 

for non-ruminants. 

 MS. ENGELBERT: We've always 

required outdoor access in the winter. But we 

have allowed them to confine animals if it was 

going to be dangerous for the animals to be 

out. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. 

 MS. ENGELBERT: So. 

 MR. MATHEWS: And in all honesty, it 

didn't dawn on me while giving the 

presentation, but we originally had some 

language in there about icy conditions. When 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 62

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

there's ice on the pasture or whatever, and I 

don't recall why that's not there. So, you 

can tell us that we need to put it in. 

 MS. ENGELBERT: Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. 

 MS. SHEA: Kelly -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: It's 10:30 a.m. 

 MS. SHEA: Just, fast. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Ms. Shea says 

she'll be fast. 

 MS. SHEA: Yes. 

 MR. MATHEWS: If you don't want to 

take a break, we don't have to take a break. 

But, right after Kelly we're going to take a 

break. 

 MS. SHEA: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: We've got some people 

who need a break. 

 MS. SHEA: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Go ahead. 

 MS. SHEA: So, Kelly Shea with 

Horizon Organic Dairy, milk buyer and 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 63

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

processor. So, thank you very, very much USDA 

for this long-awaited rule. I actually want 

to ask two questions about next steps. So, I 

actually was glad to see the clarification on 

origin of livestock in this rule because I 

thought it might give us, as a community, the 

opportunity to kickstart the next rulemaking 

that we so much want to see come out on origin 

of livestock. So, two questions for you 

Richard. 

 Question number one, could you talk 

a little bit about process and how people can 

provide comments in this pasture rule on the 

origin of livestock issue that would help 

expedite getting the next rulemaking out? So 

what information would be helpful for people 

to provide? What kind of comments would be 

able to be provided that would expedite 

rulemaking on origin of livestock? That's one 

question. 

 And then the second question is, 

we're very, very grateful for the listening 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 64

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

session here today, and wondering if USDA 

could talk about possibly intentions to hold 

further listening sessions, maybe in the 

Midwest, say Minnesota, Wisconsin and also on 

the West Coast, maybe in Northern California? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. I'll answer 

the second one first. We plan to do two more 

sessions before the end of the comment period 

which is December 23rd. One will be in the 

upper Midwest someplace. Another one will be 

out on the West Coast. We do not have dates 

or venues for that at this time. But we do 

plan to have two more listening sessions. 

 Now as to the first question, the 

origin of livestock issue is rather complex. 

The Board has recommended that we amend 

paragraph (iii), and that will not do the job. 

 And the reason for that, and it'll get kind 

of confusing without props, but you have a 

requirement in the origin of livestock 

provisions that say all animals have to be 

organic from the last third of gestation, 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 65

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

except, and then there's an exception for 

poultry and then there's an exception for 

dairy animals. Within that exception for 

dairy animals, there is a further exception. 

And that exception takes us down to the point 

where we had the problem. Okay? 

 The first exception talks about how 

you can convert an animal for 12 months to 

make them organic. The second exception 

provides for how you feed that animal. So you 

ended up with a two-track system because 

people who didn't take the second exception 

were allowed to keep bringing animals in. So 

you don't solve the problem by changing (iii) 

of the feed provision. So in reality, there 

has to be a wholesale rewrite of 236(a)(2). I 

mean, it just has to be rewritten. 

 And in working this up, I've got 

about a hundred questions as to things like Βall right, if you're going with last third of 

gestation for all animals, can a dairy farmer 

who is conventional, who goes to organic, once 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 66

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

they become organic, they have to have all 

animals last third of gestation. But could 

that dairy farmer buy another farm and convert 

it in the same way that he had done for his 

farm? And the questions go on and on, the 

nuances along those lines. 

 There's also the issue of breeders 

stock. Okay? Right now you can bring in 

breeders stock that could be converted, if you 

wanted to. There's breeders stock you might 

keep, there's breeders stock you might not 

keep. But if you have a requirement that all 

animals be last third of gestation after the 

date that you get certified, does that apply 

to breeders stock? The Board hasn't addressed 

that. 

 So, there's all kinds of things in 

there that have not been addressed and I could 

probably stand up here and talk about that 

question for about an hour. So, if you want 

to comment on the origin of livestock one, I 

would think that you would want to think and 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 67

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

comment beyond what the Board has recommended, 

because there's a lot of nuances out there. 

It's not going to be solved by changing (iii). 

 It's just not going to be. 

 Thoughts that I have is, the feed 

provision needs to go to the feed section. 

Okay? The feed provision was originally in 

the feed exception, in the feed section. What 

happened was that the whole herd conversion 

was in the first proposal. Commoners didn't 

want the whole herd conversion, so it came out 

of the second proposal. Then we heard from 

people who said, yes, we have to have the 

whole herd conversion. So it went into the 

final Rule. But the first proposal had the 

feed provisions in the feed section. And 

things got messed up, when the feed provision 

got added to the origin of livestock section. 

 So that's what messed it up to begin with. 

So one of the things that's going to have to 

happen is that's going to have to come out and 

go to the feed section. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 68

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Another question I would raise is, 

all right, responsibly connected parties, and 

I touched on this a little bit, can 

responsibly connected parties of an operation 

go out and start more dairies and use the 12-

month provision? I think that has to be 

considered. Okay? 

 So think outside the box. Think 

beyond what the Board has recommended. Look 

at the regulations as they relate to the herd 

conversion. Also look at the breeders stock 

provision and then go ahead and tell us what 

you think needs to be done with origin of 

livestock. Because those comments would be 

valuable as we go ahead and develop the rule 

for origin of livestock, which is a separate 

rulemaking. And it's been done before. The 

pasture rule when we weren't looking for 

comments on pasture. When we were doing 

Harvey, we got plenty of comments on pasture, 

and we considered those as well. Okay? 

 All right, let's take a break. 10 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 69

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

minutes please. Then come on back and 

hopefully we'll have lots of additional 

comments and questions. 

 (Brief recess.) 

 MR. MATHEWS: All right, we're 

ready to get started with round two of 

comments. And so, it's all yours. There's a 

microphone over there someplace for you to 

use. And again, I remind everybody that we 

need everybody signed in. The court reporter 

needs that, especially for checking the 

spelling of names. 

 MS. DEHNE: Well thanks, my name is 

Nicole Dehne and I coordinate the 

certification program for Vermont organic 

farmers. And I did want to start by thanking 

the USDA staff and Richard specifically for 

putting out this long awaited rule. And 

ultimately we're very happy with it. And the 

strength of the document is definitely that it 

requires dairy animals to be out on pasture 

and graze. So, I want to thank you for that. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 70

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 I don't want to be repetitive, but 

I do think it's an important point, although 

it seems like you started to address it a 

little bit or you know, you mentioned that you 

may have forgotten to put some stuff in about 

snow and ice. But we're definitely concerned 

about the potential prohibition of barnyards 

during the winter months. So, I'm just 

imagining, you know, telling our farmers in 

Vermont that we're prohibiting barnyards in 

the winter. And I do feel like, in doing so, 

we're going create a conflict in the Rule 

where we're requiring producers to minimize 

risk to soil and water quality. So we would 

definitely recommend adding inclement weather 

allowances for ruminants. So we can work on, 

as you're suggesting, providing language to do 

that. 

 But I just was imagining 

sacrificial pasture used all winter in Vermont 

with cows up to their knees -- and you know, 

creating kind of knees in mud and creating a 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 71

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

health and safety issue and also a soil and 

water quality/nutrient management issue. 

 And then there are just a few parts 

of the Rule that might seem a little 

prescriptive, from a certifier's perspective 

as far as regulations. So, you know, for some 

of the parts where the producer is required to 

clean their water troughs on a weekly basis, 

and how do we verify that? And then, you 

know, from a pregnant woman's perspective on 

due dates and dry cows being in, you know, a 

week before and after birth, I mean, I guess 

we can base it on the due date, but, you know, 

I can give birth at anytime, so at this point, 

and it could be two weeks past my due date, 

so, you know, just kind of keeping those 

things in mind from a certifier's perspective 

on how to verify but -- I need to get confined 

immediately. But, thanks. 

 MR. JODARSKI: Good morning. My 

name's Guy Jodarski. I'm a veterinarian and I 

work with organic producers primarily, also 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 72

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

some grazers throughout the country. And I've 

had the privilege to travel from Maine to 

California and see organic dairies throughout 

the country. And I thank you for getting the 

rule this far. And I know a lot of people in 

this room were instrumental in pushing this 

along and so I want to thank all of you folks 

to for what you've done. And, you know, the 

difficulty now is in the interpretation and 

the enforcement. And I don't really envy the 

certifying agencies when going through this. 

 And, so I'd like to delve into a 

couple of these little rules that'll, I'm 

sure, will be hashed out further. But Dr. 

Kathy Soder's point was very good about the 

dry matter intake. And I'd just like to 

expand on that a little bit. It's very 

difficult to measure directly, if not 

impossible, dry matter intake from pasture. 

And so we do that calculation by difference, 

in most cases. 

 And so, what we are asking for here 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 73

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

is a -- we're only allowing a maximum of 70% 

of the dry matter to be fed not non-pasture. 

And the difficulty here is with using a 

straight figure of 3%, the .03 in 205.237 

Sections (c) Section (2). When you document 

the dry matter demand of each class. This is 

at the .03 times the bodyweight is 3% dry 

matter intake. Now, cows that are producing 

milk, to any extent, will exceed that. And so 

4% would be real easy. Some good cows will be 

a lot higher than 4% of bodyweight. And so, 

in effect, I just want to make you aware of 

what you are doing here by setting this at 3% 

is you're actually making a more stringent 

rule than what it states explicitly. 

 Now let me explain that. What I 

mean is, if you have a cow, let's just take 

that 30%. Let's take a 1000 pound cow, let's 

take a Jersey cow that's milking. So we're 

saying that she's eating 30 pounds of dry 

matter. If in fact she's producing milk, she 

may be eating 4% or 40 pounds of dry matter. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 74

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

So if we're doing the calculation based on a 

30 pound dry matter intake, we're going to 

limit her to 21 pounds fed feed. If in 

actuality she needs 40 pound to support her 

milk production, she's going to have to eat 19 

pounds of pasture, not 9 pounds of pasture. 

So, in effect, you're making the pasture rule 

much more stringent. It's pushing it closer 

to 50%. 

 Now that may be okay. And for most 

grazers it's fine. They're in the 70% or more 

during the grazing season. But there are a 

lot of people that are on the edge of this 

that really push to the 30% edge. And so, I 

think Dr. Soder's suggestion of going to a 

table, looking at production bodyweights, 

expanding it beyond just 3% is probably a good 

idea. 

 And then the other issue in the 

rulemaking that I'd like to address is the 

inclement weather. And that comes down to, 

there is a bit of a, let's say, a competition 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 75

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

between dairymen around the country, between 

small dairymen and large dairymen. A lot of 

it's a mindset. In fact we do have one 

marketplace, but there is the idea, a lot of 

family size operations that I've worked with 

have the idea that if we could just stop the 

larger dairies, the large organic dairies, our 

markets going to improve. We need to look at 

this Rule very closely because this -- the way 

this is written right now there are a lot of 

small family dairies that house their cattle 

in stall barns in the winter that will no 

longer be allowed to do that. 

 And so, if the intention was just 

to shut off big dairies in the West, it's also 

going to make us in the northern climates get 

our cattle out more. Now having said that, it 

is possible to out-winter cattle. And I see 

it more and more. I'm from Wisconsin and even 

in far northern Wisconsin people can keep 

dairy cattle out through the winter. It does 

take wind breaks. It does take bedding. It 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 76

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

does take some management but there are a lot 

of people that just put their cows out after 

milking to clean the barn for an hour or two 

everyday. And so this is a big issue for the 

small family farms that are pushing for this 

rule. They need to know go into this with 

their eyes open that the way it's stated right 

now, it's no longer going to be allowed. 

 So, my proposal would be, and I'll 

do a written comment on this, but on 205.239 

(c) number (4), to me the easiest would be, 

instead of just saying in the case of goats, 

saying in the case of lactating dairy cattle 

and goats during periods of inclement weather. 

 It would give the exception to lactating 

dairy cows. Thank you. 

 MR. KARREMAN: Hugh Karreman, 

veterinarian in Lancaster County. I work with 

about 80 or so certified organic dairy herds. 

 I'm glad to see one of my guys is here today. 

 And I'm also on the National Organic 

Standards Board. Chair of the livestock 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 77

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

committee, although my comments here today are 

not part of the official comments from the 

committee. We hope to have one maybe by the 

meeting in November. Anyway, I just wanted to 

say thank you Richard for all the hard work 

you've done. If I could give you an honorary 

Ph.D. in pasture regulation management, you 

got it man. Job well done. I just think 

everyone's comments so far really are accurate 

and I want to echo them. 

 I think Dr. Jodarski's last 

comments were very on the mark, totally. And 

I just want to add on that as far as the 

animals in the wintertime in the tie stalls, 

that's most of my farmers in my area, they're 

going to have some readjusting to do if this 

goes into effect as is. And so I would 

suggest that perhaps, you know, some of the 

farmers do put their cows out a lot, out on 

the ground when its frozen and whatnot if it's 

good weather, down in southern Pennsylvania 

and that's great. But perhaps there should be 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 78

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

also allowance for barnyards with improved 

management of barnyards. Just so maybe the 

cows aren't, as your intent is so that they're 

outside, but maybe not out on the pasture 

itself in that bad weather, but at least not 

tied in 22 hours a day like Dr. Jodarski 

mentioned and I agree with. Although that 

does give very good individual cow care, I 

must say. 

 The other thing is I really like 

the Regulation in there, the calves getting 

hay. You say from day seven. I've already 

heard from one person I know just privately, 

he said, well why not day five or day 10? 

Kind of arbitrary. Just do it from birth. 

Just do it from birth. It's a forage, so they 

get used to forage right off the bat when they 

have to be pastured at six months of age. 

 The other oh, back just for a 

moment to the barnyard thing and the inclement 

weather. I don't know what the EU regulations 

say, but perhaps we should look to them 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 79

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

because I think they have something happening 

in 2010 regarding confinement and whatnot with 

their herds. 

 Also, someone mentioned to me 

privately, as well, would dry matter intake 

be, can you also calculate that or use that 

after the killing frost? Because cows do 

graze after the killing frost. After your 

technical growing season is done, would they 

be allowed to consider that as part of their 

feed ration. That was someone from the West 

that asked me that on the phone. 

 And then the stream bank fencing I 

think is excellent. I always push for that. 

That's great. And it does, some people would 

say, well, you know, what if the EQIP program 

doesn't have money for the subsidization of 

stream bank fencing? So many farmers just put 

up a simple single wire. It works just fine. 

 So, perhaps that could somehow be put in 

there, even a simple single wire, instead of 

referencing EQIP, while although that's good, 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 80

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

but they might not have funding. 

 But in general, I just want to say 

that I think this whole document is great, 

even if you had to keep it exactly as it is. 

I think it just needs some tweaking around the 

edges. I think everyone here is very grateful 

to your very hard work and it will create a 

very bright line between organic and 

conventional, and that's exactly what we need. 

 Thank you. 

 MR. GARDINER: Jim Gardiner, 

average size dairy farmer. What I find when I 

travel across this country is that whether 

you're milking 3000 cows conventional or 

organic, or 50 cows, usually takes one person 

per 50 cows. So I'm an average farmer; in 

organics. I do want to thank you very much 

for doing a really good job on this. And I 

agree with Hugh on the fact that there should 

be some kind of reward or label placed upon 

you for the ultimate specialist on all the 

research you've had to do to get this rule 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 81

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

into place. 

 A few of the comments I would have, 

I do agree with, you know, like placing your 

calves on forage as soon as possible. To 

monitor a rule where they always have their 

hay, you know, above up in a hay rack, that's 

a little bit more specific I think than what 

should be able to be patrolled possibly. 

Okay? I know there's a lot of people that try 

to do a good job and they do a good job 

without having to have hay racks. Okay. For 

whatever that's worth. 

 And, okay as far as allowing the 

animals out -- I'll give you a little scenario 

of what we do on our farm, okay. We live in a 

northern climate. During the wintertime -- 

during the summertime our cows Β their -- 

their ration is pasture and molasses and 

minerals. So, their dry matter intake, other 

than a small portion for the dry matter that's 

in molasses, which is 75% dry matter, comes 

from pasture. So it is a very doable Rule 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 82

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

that you have written here as far as focusing 

on pasture, that's good. During the 

wintertime when the weather changes, which it 

looks like it's starting to change for us 

right now outside, you know, it's getting 

cooler and it's rainy, our cows, during the 

daytime, are able to go out after milking and 

they stay out all day. But they eat outside 

all day. We feed them balage outside. They 

are on a sacrificial, you know, piece of land 

that we use predominantly for that. It's 

receded back and provides for vegetation and 

actually allowed to rest during the growing 

season, so that that ground can aerate itself 

and be brought back to life, you know, before 

it's used again during the winter season. 

 But when they go outside, they stay 

out all day long whether it's cold, snowy, 

rainy. And they really enjoy it. We've had 

great success with production, with animal 

condition. The health of the animals has been 

fantastic. That practice has been taking 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 83

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

place for about 12 years on our farm. 

 We find that by feeding the balage 

outside their intake is fantastic. When they 

come in at night, and some of the points were 

already made as far as the inclement weather, 

especially at night if you notice the 

activity, the natural inclination for cows, 

during the day their activity is higher, 

during the night their activity has a tendency 

to be lower anyway and bringing them into a 

stall barn at night, where it's dry, cool, you 

know, clean and lots of good, as Lisa said, 

organic bedding, okay, it really provides for 

a good environment where they can utilize all 

the feedstuffs they've taken in during the 

day. 

 But what we have tried to do during 

the winter is emulate what is going on in the 

summer, only it is from a stored feed source 

instead of a fresh feed source, Okay. So, a 

good rule. A little tweaking on the rules 

there for having your animals in for a little 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 84

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

longer period of time would be good. 

 As far as the streams, I'm in total 

agreement, you know, with havingΧhaving, you 

know, no feces material in the streams or 

anything like that. But I guess my question 

would be in the writing, would it be listed as 

an approved soil and water, you know our soil 

and water districts do a lot of work on 

helping people set up stream crossings and 

things like that. And lots of times they may 

not be elevated or anything like that, but 

they are allowed to cross in order to get 

through. You know, so to have them totally 

out of a stream 100% of the time, that would 

take out of a lot of grazing areas. And so, 

if-- if that could be included, that we would 

have, you know, an approved crossing in-- in 

the writing, I think that would be very 

beneficial. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. If you would 

allow me to -- 

 MR. GARDINER: Sure. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 85

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. MATHEWS: That's a good comment. 

 Our intention was not to eliminate stream 

crossings. It's more to eliminate them from 

actually grazing right up to and passing 

through the streams on a regular basis. I 

mean it's intended for the stream that runs 

through the pasture, more than moving them 

from one pasture to another. Okay? 

 MR. GARDINER: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay? So, I would 

recommend that you flesh set out in additional 

comments and send that our way. 

 MR. GARDINER: Okay, very good. 

Let's see, I've got that one taken care of. 

Your origin of livestock, of course, I realize 

you're going to be working on that. The 

points you made are very interesting, and I 

know as much as the pasture rule has been an 

object of improvement, and I think you've gone 

a long ways to really improving it, it's very 

impressive. 

 The livestock Rule, or origin, I'm 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 86

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

sure, like you said is going to be a tough one 

to tackle, but I do believe that if common 

sense prevails and I believe that this rule 

here that you've gotten out shows a lot of it, 

I'm confident that the process, hopefully, 

through what we learn in this one, would be a 

shorter process. That would be a huge key for 

all of us in the organic industry. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I'm hoping so. On 

that origin of livestock, it just passed 

through my head, another example of a problem, 

if you've got somebody who has converted, and 

everything has to be from last third of 

gestation to be brought onto your farm, one of 

the other things that you might want to 

consider is what happens if your neighbor 

decides to go out of organic production and 

your neighbor's cows were converted using the 

12 month. You can't buy them. Do you intend 

to do that? Just a question. 

 Because at that point, they're not 

last third of gestation. You can only bring 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 87

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

on last third of gestation. He's got 

perfectly good, I guess, organic cows. I mean 

the milk's been going into the organic 

consumer's refrigerator. But under that 

proposal, the way it's been made, you can't 

buy your neighbors cow that was converted. 

And that may be what you want. I don't know. 

 But it's another one of those 100 different 

questions that I have on origin of livestock. 

 Next speaker please. 

 MR. MORRISON: Steve Morrison 

again. I'd just like to echo the idea that in 

section 205.239 -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Please come back up to 

these mics because -- 

 MR. MORRISON: Yes. Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: -- that's where the 

court reporter's getting his data. 

 MR. MORRISON: I'd like to echo the 

comment in reference to 205.239 (c), which 

includes that ruminants may be temporarily 

denied access to pasture during periods of 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 88

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

inclement weather, which applies currently to, 

in this proposal, to goats. Maybe that could 

be amended to include goats as well as cows, 

lactating dairy cows. I think that's an 

important exemption especially in areas where 

the likelihood of dangerously inclement 

weather is high, such as in the Northeast. 

 MR. KARREMAN: Hugh Karreman again. 

 And actually, as Chair of livestock at OSB, 

can I ask you, is the NOP going to give NOSB 

guidance or input upon what you would like to 

see towards an origin of livestock rule. Or 

is that totally up to us, from the public as a 

sounding board. And, the other thing is if 

the NOSB does not come up with another origin 

of livestock proposal as we have, which we 

thought was okay, but hearing your reasons 

today makes a lot of sense. To keep that new 

rule coming along, you don't have to get 

something new from us amending our first 

position, do you? 

 MR. MATHEWS: No, we don't have to 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 89

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

get anything new from the Organic Standards 

Board. But you guys are more than welcome to 

take another look at the recommendation and 

submit us something else if you would like. 

Our plan is to just try and move forward with 

it. But, I would love to have some additional 

thought put into it by the Board and have the 

Board submit us an amended recommendation. 

 MR. KARREMAN: Does that help your 

behind the scenes work, which obviously you've 

done a lot of with the OMB and SBA and all 

that, to have a Board recommendation that 

perhaps reflects a little more of what's been 

discussed here? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Well, the Board has 

already made a recommendation. And what I 

would do is, I would explain within the 

regulation that we got the Board's 

recommendation and while we appreciate the 

Board's recommendation, we see some issues 

that are the result of that. And what we 

would do is recommend how we think that we 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 90

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

achieve the intent of the Board. Because we 

know what your intent is. Or at least we 

think we know what your intent is. 

 But when we go and try to put it 

into rulemaking, that intent impacts other 

provisions within the Regulations. And so 

that's what we would be looking at. And we 

would come up with a proposal that addresses 

such things as moving the 80/20, we would 

remove it. Because it's obsolete. For the 

other feed, I would move it to the feed 

provision. I would take a very hard line on 

what you've recommended. Which means that 

every animal from the future would be last 

third of gestation because that's what you've 

told us, as the Board. And so that's the 

interpretation that we would take. So we 

would do a wholesale rewrite of the 236(a)(2), 

plus we would do a rewrite on the breeders 

stock. Which would say only organic breeders 

stock could be brought onto the farm. 

 MR. KARREMAN: And would it be-- 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 91

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

should it be only on ruminants or also poultry 

and other species? You know, to have it 

across-the-board, last third of gestation -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Well, across-the-board 

last third of gestation applies to everything 

except for poultry and dairy. So it already 

applies to everything. So the only thing that 

we're really doing is that we're tightening 

the rule on dairy. So that's what you would 

be doing. So we're only addressing it from 

the dairy side, because other than chickens, 

from the second day after hatching, dairy is 

the only livestock that is allowed to be 

transitioned into organic. 

 And what we would be doing, based 

on what the Board has recommended is saying, 

this is a one-time deal. If you are a 

conventional farmer and you want to become 

organic, we'll let you convert your land and 

your animals. Now, other factors that come 

into that Hugh, okay, he's got his animals, 

some animals are born onto the farm. Can he 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 92

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

buy animals and bring them onto the farm 

during the transition period? Those are the 

kinds of things that need to be answered. 

 And so, what my interpretation 

would be, any animal that is on the farm at 

the time that the transition starts, any 

animal born on the farm during the transition 

would be good to go. But the farmer would not 

be able to buy animals and bring them on 

during the transition period. So, I mean, 

those nuances have to be considered as well. 

So, I mean, just to reinforce that there's a 

lot of things to think about when you go to 

change a Regulation. Yes sir? 

 MR. STOLTZFOOS: I'm Roman 

Stoltzfoos from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I've 

been in organic dairy since 1990. Certified 

since `95. We have a family farm and we 

greatly appreciate the effort that has been 

put forth to protect what the true spirit and 

meaning of organic pasturing is. And we very 

much appreciate the effort that you have put 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 93

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

forth Richard and whoever works with you. 

 And the only thing I would like to 

say is I would like to see all farmers rally 

behind this and be willing to change and think 

outside of the box and do what's right for 

livestock and soil. And I really appreciate 

what has been happening here because I think 

it will answer a lot of the issues. There 

will be small farms in my area that will not 

comply to this, I'm sure of that. And I think 

now is as good a time as any to exit. Don't 

you? I mean, we obviously have more supply 

than we need. We would like to grow this 

industry but I think we need to grow it right, 

and not fast. 

 MS. ARNOLD: I'm Kathie Arnold. My 

husband, brother-in-law and I have a farm 

about an hour east of here. And I have to say 

that Thursday was a day that I've been looking 

forward to for years. To actually go to the 

computer and read what work had been done over 

the last several years and put into this 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 94

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

proposed rule. So, thank you for bringing it 

to that point. And, I do feel it's just 

wonderful to see that the 30% minimum dry 

matter intake is in here. That has to be 

maintained throughout the growing season and 

like so many people have said, you know, that 

will just add so much to the integrity of 

organic dairy and allow our consumers to know 

that, what they expect is truly what they will 

be receiving. 

 I'm very glad to see the 

clarifications you've done on the issues 

around bedding and agricultural products in 

feed additives and supplements. I guess I 

also want to just tell you a little bit about 

our farm. We have 130 cows and we graze them 

for 200 days, at least 200 days a year. Our 

animals from birth on up through lactating dry 

cows are all out on pasture and the the dry 

cows, bred heifers, breeding age heifers and 

yearlings, their diet is 100% pasture during 

the growing season. And so, you know, during 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 95

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the growing season, our animals are, you know, 

intensively managed on pasture. 

 But, I do have concern about 

continuing to manage on pasture during the 

non-growing season. And I know for a number 

of farms, from Oregon where they have an 

extensive or rainy season, to northern 

climates where, because of topography or 

because of the farm is on clay soils, lowlaying clay soils, that meeting the definition 

and intent of the sacrificial pasture may be 

impossible on some farms and may be abrogating 

their nutrient management plans. 

 And certainly I will be working 

with many others to submit very constructive 

comments. But overall, I'm just so very 

pleased with the intent that has been so 

clearly put out in this rule. I do have one 

other question. There's not really any 

mention of drought. And what are your 

thoughts in terms of, you know, if farms, 

where they normally don't have drought and so 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 96

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

they don't have irrigation equipment, come 

into a period of drought. How could that be 

handled? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Well, first of all, I 

think that the organic systems plan should be 

designed so that you are growing throughout 

the growing season. So, you need to be 

alternating crops and you should be looking 

for some crops that can withstand the August 

heat and provide food value to the animals. 

The other provision, there is a situation in 

there where if there was a drought that was 

declared by the Secretary of Agriculture as a 

natural disaster, we would take that into 

consideration. And the regs already provide 

for those extreme situations, so that, you 

wouldn't get out of feeding organic feed, but 

you could be exempted from the 30% DMI. 

 MS. ARNOLD: Okay. Great. Thank 

you. And thanks for so much for all your hard 

work. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 97

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. PERRY: My name is Robert 

Perry. I work for NOFA New York as an 

inspector, enforcer of the rule. I also work 

as a dairy educator for transitioning to 

organic dairy farms. I'll try not to get 

started here, but, I've been involved in 

organic for over 25 years and I've got a very 

vivid imagination. And, 365 day a year 

pasture is stretching my imagination. I go 

out and enforce the rule as an inspector. I 

stretched the rule in some cases, due to the 

circumstances at the farm on any given day. 

 I guess since we're talking about 

pasture, livestock, maybe we should reconsider 

bagbalm as a medication, because if we're 

going to graze cows in the winter in the 

Northeast, bagbalm and Dr. Naylor, some of 

these products were invented in the North 

country for a reason. And, actually will be 

good for Hugh Karreman and some other 

veterinarians because udder health and herd 

health will certainly put them back on the 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 98

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

road in the winter dealing with downed cows 

and frozen teats and other things. 

 The other question I have is, if 

the NOP would provide guidance to the 

certifiers about the audit trail for 

enforcement of this Pasture Regulation. I 

know there's a clause in one of the sections 

about maintaining an audit trail for nutrient 

management on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. 

 I really have to struggle with many of the 

farmers to provide an audit trail of purchased 

feeds on a yearly basis, much less bringing it 

down to a daily basis. 

 Maybe we could use Google Earth and 

just do digital imaging of our farms to see if 

in fact they do have those cows out on any 

given day. It's interesting, we recently had 

a field day and a representative from, I 

believe, Cornell cooperative extension 

presented a program about a new RMA program 

where you can get crop insurance for your 

pastures. And this might be a program that 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 99

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

our farmers might look into because certainly 

grazing on some of these pastures, a lot of 

them have a hard time recovering by April or 

May of the following year, much less 

recovering of all. So that's just something 

that hopefully we can insert some language 

there that will help that. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Could I interrupt for 

a minute? 

 MR. PERRY: Absolutely. 

 MR. MATHEWS: With regard to having 

trouble recovering, what's the cause of that? 

 MR. PERRY: Compaction, erosion, 

just you know, environmental stress. Rocks, 

clay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Are the animals on 

there all the time? 

 MR. PERRY: Well, I mean -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: I mean, are they 

rotating them across different pastures? 

 MR. PERRY: Well, we are proposing 

a sacrificial pasture and -- 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 100

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. MATHEWS: Right. 

 MR. PERRY: And I guess my-- my 

interpretation of many of the pastures that I 

see is it's-- it's been a sacrificial pasture 

from day one. It's not good for anything 

else. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I think that we've 

addressed that in the Regulation that the 

pasture has to be managed as if it was a crop. 

 And so you would look at the crop provisions 

and it talks, you would have to be seeding. 

And I mean, you shouldn't be overgrazing your 

pasture. 

 MR. PERRY: I understand that. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I mean, they need to 

have good pasture practice standards. And 

that's what we are asking them to delineate 

within their organic systems plan. 

 MR. PERRY: But, you also have to 

take into consideration that some of these 

farms have been in the family for 100 years or 

more and, well, my family farm's been in the 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 101

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

family since 1794. I have a family cemetery 

down the road that I'm the president of the 

cemetery association. And I go down there and 

just imagine digging these graves by hand. 

There's boulders and cobbles in there that 

will choke a backhoe. And I used to ask my 

dad, how come we never moved? How come you 

didn't move to Yates County, or somewhere 

where there's good soil? And, you know, 

that's what tradition is. And, unlike some of 

our new New Age farms coming on, farming is a 

tradition. It's a lifestyle that people are 

stuck too. You know, they are stuck to this 

land and, you know, you got a boulder patch 

and stream out in back of the barn, that 

pasture is harder to come by than you can 

imagine. 

 The other issue is, are we going to 

provide shade in the winter? Water in the 

pasture? Many of the pastures use streams for 

watering. Without going out there with an ax, 

I have a pond it can easily freeze 18 to 20 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 102

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

inches deep in the winter. Those are just 

issues that we have to deal with. I also, 

before I sit down, I look around the room here 

and I just see some pioneers in organic and 

dairy. Pat Kane over here is one of the 

foundations of NOFA, and I don't know how we 

got this complicated. But, all I can say is 

good luck for the next 20 years. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Your comments 

reminded me of one thing that we've included 

in there that you have to fence off the water. 

 But we've also asked for data on the impact 

of that. And the reason why I mention this is 

that throughout the preamble, we talk about 

what we see as the economic impact or the 

regulatory impact or the paperwork burden of 

these changes. And we've asked for the public 

to give us feedback on that. So, I encourage 

you to read the preamble. Look for where 

we've asked for data and to also provide that 

in your comments. Yes sir. 

 MR. STOLTZFOOS: I'm John 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 103

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Stoltzfoos from Whitesville, New York. If you 

talk about cold-weather, if you look at a seed 

map, we're that little dot right in the 

Pennsylvania-New York border. So we're very 

cold there. I have some concern about this 

with cold weather and cows outside in freezing 

temperature with freezing tits. But, in the 

meantime, we're also, on our farm, we are 

making a pen pack down in our woods this year. 

 We had intended to do this during the summer. 

 So our cows are going to be out 24-7, 365 

days. We kind of thought, maybe, when a cow 

freshens and right after she's fresh, we might 

have to keep her in like a week or so in a 

little bit warmer climate until her udder 

smoothes up again. 

 But overall, I think it looks real 

good for us. I know that's going to be a big 

issue about frozen teats in the North country. 

 We might have to deal with it a little bit 

too on ours. But I thank you very much for 

what you did for our pasture issues. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 104

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. JOHNSON: Dave Johnson again. 

I'm not a goat farmer and I'm not sure how the 

goat farmers managed to get such clout. But 

how did the rule come about that only goats 

have the privilege of being excluded from 

pasture during inclement weather? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Goats are nowhere near 

as hearty as a cow. 

 MR. JOHNSON: Okay, and second 

question I have is, when I look at the 

definition of inclement weather, I can picture 

some places in the United States that have 

inclement weather 365 days a year. So I'm 

really concerned about the goat farmers in 

Alaska. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I would recommend that 

you put your comments with regard to inclement 

weather into writing and send them to us. If 

you've got a better definition, let us know. 

 MR. NELSON: Ed, this one doesn't 

work, right. Can I take it away? 

 MR. MATHEWS: It's connected to the 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 105

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

-- that microphone is connected to -- nobody? 

 MR. NELSON: This one. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. 

 MS. ZUCK: Doesn't look like it's 

connected to anything. Thanks. Hello. I'm 

Leslie Zuck and I didn't sign up yet, but I 

will, promise. It's Z-U-C-K. I'm the 

director of Pennsylvania Certified Organic and 

-- closer to the mic -- there we go. I have 

to see too, how do I do that? So, I was 

looking at -- we will definitely submit some 

very constructive comments. We'll start on 

those right away. 

 And I have some concerns about the 

changes to the temporary confinement part of 

the rule. And I think that's what you're 

hearing a lot today as well. No surprises 

there. But I was wondering when you did that, 

split it out between the ruminants versus nonruminants, if you did give some consideration 

to how that new definition of inclement 

weather might affect the other species. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 106

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Particularly, I'm concerned about poultry, 

right now. And if, you know, you have 

considered that great, if you want comments on 

that we'd be happy to provide some. 

 I suspect that the poultry 

operations, now we would consider coldweather, rainy weather, those types of things 

to be allowed to bring those birds inside 

because it does affect their health. It may 

not kill them. It may not cause permanent 

damage, but it is a concern for causing 

illness and such. 

 And then, the other question I have 

regarding the ruminants not being allowed to 

be confined, being allowed to be confined for 

those specific reasons. I was wondering as 

far as -- I was trying to think of things that 

we do get requests for confining animals. And 

one of them is predator problems. Now, those 

are usually temporary, but if they do have 

some predator issues on the farm and they need 

to take care of them, whether it's by trapping 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 107

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

or other means of dispatch, they will want to 

keep those animals in. Outbreaks of 

contagious diseases in the region, that's 

another concern. And then, maybe I missed 

this, but, are you -- I think what you're 

saying is that you also don't want the animals 

to be, the cows to be inside at night, just 

because it's night. So they should be outside 

all the time. So, those are my questions. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. The animals 

outside all day, every day -- 

 MS. ZUCK: And night? 

 MR. MATHEWS: -- except for -- yes. 

 24 hours a day. 

 MS. ZUCK: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: And you're welcome to 

comment on that. But, yes, the intent is that, 

except for those times listed, the animal 

would be outside. 

 MS. ZUCK: And so the inclement 

weather change in that definition, well I 

shouldn't say change, but the clarification 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 108

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

because it really wasn't defined before, 

affect on the other species of livestock, is 

that something you would also request comments 

on or is that not negotiable? 

 MR. MATHEWS: You are free to 

comment on anything in there. So, if you 

believe that the definition has impacts in 

other places, please let us know. 

 MS. FLACK: I'm Sarah Flack from 

Vermont. And I've been an organic inspector 

for maybe 15 years or so. And I'm also a 

grazing consultant and have helped a lot of 

farmers come up with grazing plans to meet the 

pasture requirements. And I have three areas 

that haven't been covered in a lot of detail 

yet, in the comments yet. 

 First of all let me say, thank you. 

 And to have the 30% in there, and have it not 

be a stocking rate was really excellent. And 

that it covers the whole grazing season also, 

the whole growing season is great. I'm 

wondering how to get the cows bred if you're 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 109

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

doing AI and you need to leave the cow locked 

in the barn for the day when the breeder 

comes. So I think that maybe could get added 

in there under illness or something like that. 

 

 Generally, you tie the cow up or 

put it in a pen in the free stall, and the 

breeder shows up sometime during the day and 

then you let her out at night. So it's a very 

short temporary confinement. But I thought it 

could be overlooked in here. 

 The other is, I wanted to say 

something else about sacrifice pastures, 

because I've worked with farmers who have 

tried sacrifice pastures in the northern 

climates before, in the winter. And these 

were the, you know, the cutting edge grazers 

who were going to do the 365 day a year 

grazing. And they turned out into various 

soil types and conditions all over the 

northeast in the northern climates and some of 

them did really well and continued to leave 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 110

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the cows out for the whole year in those 

climates. And some found that they had soil 

conditions and cow health conditions that 

didn't allow them to continue to do that. 

 And so, particularly the farmers 

who had nutrient management issues, that 

really put their soil and water resources at 

risk due to the, you know, location of their 

farm and the fact that the winter conditions 

are, you know, four to six months of the year. 

 They couldn't come up with enough land to 

rotate through these sacrifice pastures, as is 

described in the rule as it's currently 

written -- the new proposed rule. And so, 

they were able to go to NRCS and say hey look 

we've created a big nutrient management 

problem, what do you think that we should do? 

 And NRCS has gone to those farms, 

and all over the North, we've got really great 

working relationships with NRCS, who have 

cost-shared to build really nice barnyards 

with good nutrient management and manure 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 111

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

containment systems, so that their soil and 

water resources are no longer at risk. And I 

would really hate to see them being forced to 

go back to the sacrifice pastures that have 

been replaced with, you know, USDA and NRCS 

cost-sharing to allow them to have these, now 

really nice systems to keep the manure out of 

the water. 

 I also want to say that the way the 

dry matter demand is being calculated in the 

current rule, it's already been mentioned by 

two or three folks, that would definitely need 

to be adjusted so that it is a lot easier for 

the certifiers to come up with an accurate 

number of, you know, this is the amount of dry 

matter that a cow or a sheep or a beef animal 

is currently eating. The 3% of bodyweight 

just doesn't work across the board. And 

there's a lot of good information out there 

that'll show very scientifically valid ways of 

calculating what that demand should be. 

 So, but, thank you for the rule. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 112

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

Thank you for making it so strict, and for 

really listening to our concerns as farmers 

and the consumer concern about pasture. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Just one comment on 

the DMI issue. Keep in mind that I'm not 

saying that what we've got is perfect. But 

what we also want to take into consideration 

is that we need to make it easy for the farmer 

to be able to come up with the answers to 

that. So any comments that we receive, I 

would hope that they would flush out in 

greater detail what you think it should be. 

But do that in consideration of the farmer as 

well. So that we're doing something that 

isn't overburdening the farmer as far as 

trying to calculate these things out. Okay? 

 MS. COEHOORN: Hi, I'm Darlene 

Coehoorn, a Midwest dairy farmer. My husband 

Dan and I milk about between 50 and 60 cows. 

My comments -- I want to thank you first, you 

know, for getting this rule out. At least 

getting us this far. I, too, have concerns 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 113

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

with the increment weather, but my perspective 

on that comes from a little different angle. 

 I am concerned about what our 

consumers will think of me if I leave my 

cattle out when it is too cold and too 

miserable for them to be there. From an 

animal welfare standard, I mean, much of what 

we do is because of what the consumer 

perceives that we should be doing. And, I 

don't think, I mean, they do appreciate and 

they really want them on pasture, but we don't 

have a 365-day growing season. There is no 

benefit to them to being out there on pasture 

when there is no pasture. And, I really feel 

it's important that we consider the health and 

welfare of that animal as well. 

 Another point, we had a question 

where you to change the definitional of 

livestock to include any bee, cattle, sheep, 

goat, swine, poultry, equine animals used for 

food or in the production of food, fiber, feed 

or other agricultural based consumer products. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 114

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 Fish used for food, wild or domesticated game 

or other non-plant life. Is that to include 

the draft forces that our Amish farmers would 

use to produce feed? Because, now, I mean, as 

it stands right now, I am assuming that they 

are not required to feed organic feed to those 

horses. And the horses are not intended for 

food. So are they also subject to this 

Regulation, because they are producing feed 

for organic production. 

 MR. MATHEWS: That part of the 

definition has not changed. And so for horses 

for the production of food, I guess it would 

depend on how you interpret the production of 

food, so I would recommend that you send in 

comments on how we're supposed to interpret 

that. 

 MS. COEHOORN: I don't have any 

horses -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: But, right now a 

strict interpretation of that would be that 

yes, the horses on that organic farm should be 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 115

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

fed organically. They should be managed 

organically. 

 MS. COEHOORN: We just thought the 

question should come up because I don't 

believe we have any Amish-- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. 

 MS. COEHOORN: --presence and they 

may, but -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Because that's not a 

new addition to the definition. 

 MS. COEHOORN: Right, but these 

horses truly are not certified organic. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Right. 

 MS. COEHOORN: They're -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: I understand. 

 MS. COEHOORN: I mean that would be 

the same as if-- I would probably have to 

certify my tractor. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I understand that. 

And so, I guess what we need to do is to 

receive your comments because that can be 

interpreted two ways. And so, it'd be good if 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 116

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

you gave us some comment on that as well. 

 MS. COEHOORN: Can I just ask you 

further, if you could elaborate why equine 

would be included in there as it is not an 

animal that is allowed to be slaughtered in 

this country? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Because it's in the 

statute. Yes, and as Leslie says, this is 

applied worldwide and there are horses in some 

countries that are used for food. And, if we 

develop pet standards, we could have horses in 

pet food. So, it's always been in the 

standard and so -- 

 MR. PERKINS: Henry Perkins again. 

 If we are going to have to certify that our 

horses are used in production of food, then I 

have occasionally hired people, do I have to 

certify that they are too? And this is sort 

of facetious. You don't have to answer that. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Well Henry, the 

answer I would give is that definition does 

raise some questions. It's not a new 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 117

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

provision. It's in the statute. And if we 

need further clarification on that, by all 

means, please submit your comments and we'll 

look at how we might be able to provide 

further clarification. 

 MS. SHIVERA: Hi, I'm Diane Shivera 

and I work for Maine Organic Farmers and 

Gardeners Association. I'm the organic 

livestock specialist. I've been there about 

10 years working with the dairy farmers and 

other livestock farmers too. So I'd also from 

MOFGA like to thank you for the rule. I know 

our farmers have been anxious for this for a 

long time. So they really appreciate it. 

And, I have to voice all the concerns that all 

the other people are having too, so, just to 

reiterate all the information about the 

inclement weather and everything. And the 

managing for 3% is going to be difficult, and 

isn't really very realistic. 

 The other thing, just a little odd 

one that I've noticed and maybe I'm reading it 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 118

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

wrong but in 205.239 (f), it says that 

ruminants aren't allowed to pollute. I think 

maybe you mean that to say all livestock, 

because you really don't want the nonruminants out there polluting their 

environment either. So, just an odd little 

bit. So, that's it. Thank you very much. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? 

 MS. KEEFE: Hi, I'm Sally Keefe 

from with the Royal Organic Dairy. We are an 

organic dairy producer. We operate five dairy 

farms in Colorado and Texas. We also are an 

organic dairy processor. We handle all the 

milk from our farms in our own processing 

plant in Colorado. Thank you very much for 

getting the Rule out and for your perseverance 

through what I think we could all agree was a 

very long process. 

 I noticed during your speech that 

you mentioned that a voluminous docket had 

been assembled. And yesterday, I actually 

tried to find an electronic or actual reading 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 119

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

room where people could review the materials 

that you relied on for putting the proposal 

together. Like the 3% that's been coming up 

today and things like that. I wasn't able to 

find such a place. I think you would be very 

helpful to the community as we consider our 

comments over the next couple of months and 

was wondering about how that information would 

be made available? 

 MR. MATHEWS: I guess I'm not 

following. This is what is published. And 

it's got umpteen pages of preamble. And 

that's what I meant by the docket. 

 MS. KEEFE: Okay. Well 

specifically, I'm wondering about the 

administrative record. When I called 

yesterday to request the administrative 

record, I was referred to an NOSB web site. 

And I believe that the program should have an 

administrative record available for the 

review. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: And for further 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 120

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

clarification, what do you mean by 

administrative record? I mean, the Board's 

recommendations that are mentioned in here are 

all on the web site. And so the comments -- 

 MS. KEEFE: Within the preamble and 

also -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. 

 MS. KEEFE: -- and also within the 

rule, for example, there's -- there's not 

information provided on the justification for 

why you picked 3% on the DMI and things like 

that. And so I was just hoping -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: You mean 30% for the 

dry matter -- 

 MS. KEEFE: Sorry, 3% for the 

bodyweight for the calculation in the dry 

matter fed. And so that was the type of 

information I was hoping to better understand 

your reasoning, so as -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Out of this. Out of 

this. 

 MS. KEEFE: And so, are you 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 121

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

planning to put a reading room together that 

includes all of those different sources or do 

you -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: No. 

 MS. KEEFE: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I mean, it would be 

next to impossible for me to go back and pull 

out every document that I read, you know over 

several months as I was preparing to develop 

this pasture rule, because as Hugh pointed 

out, I had to go to school. I had to go to 

school to learn about pasture. I know I was 

at a meeting one time with Henry Perkins and 

I'm sure he'll verify this. Where are you 

Henry? You're over there. Henry Perkins, I 

remember telling the dairy farmers, now, you 

got to really tell us what you want us to do 

because we're bureaucrats in Washington, we're 

not dairy farmers. And so, I went to school 

and I read voluminous stuff and did a 

searching and picked out stuff. And, there's 

nothing in there that isn't already published 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 122

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

someplace else. So, I don't know -- 

 MS. KEEFE: Okay, thank -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: I don't know if I 

could recreate it for you. 

 MS. KEEFE: Thank you again, thank 

you for your perseverance and all your time in 

school. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Babak's telling 

me that I guess that file drawer that I have, 

if you had specific questions on a specific 

section, send me a freedom of information 

request and I'll go through the file cabinet 

and pull it out and I'll send it to you. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: OK, thanks. I'm 

Emily Brown-Rosen again -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Wait a minute -- 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: You want to add 

to that? 

 MR. MATHEWS: She wants to say 

something again. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Please go to the other 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 123

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

mic as well, please. 

 MS. KEEFE: Hi, it's Sally Keefe 

again. My reading room suggestion was frankly 

an attempt to avoid a voluminous -- I know 

that the Freedom Of Information Act request 

can be very burdensome on the program and so 

that was part of my suggestion was to avoid 

that type of burden on the program. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes, well, just let me 

know what you want. And, I'll go through -- I 

know that I printed it out most of this stuff 

and I'll start searching for the document that 

is applicable to what it is you're asking for. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Hi Richard, I 

have one more question, just to be clear on 

the calculations that we're expecting on the 

30% DMI. It says during the growing season, 

producers shall provide not more than average 

of 70% demand from dry matter blah, blah, 

blah, and then you go on to give specific 

requirements for monthly recordkeeping, as 

well as it mentions that the farmers are 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 124

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

supposed to have daily recordkeeping. 

 The point is it averaged over the 

whole growing season or is it a monthly 

calculation that we're looking at? Which gets 

back to the drought question. I mean, if 

their monthly average is not 30%, are they, 

you know, subject of noncompliance? 

 MR. MATHEWS: No, what we're asking 

for them to do is to document their feed 

ration on a monthly basis. So, say the first 

of each month, they would document what the 

ration is for that month. The dry matter is 

averaged over the total grazing season. Okay? 

 It's not a daily 30%. So, you can have 90% 

one-day, 10% another. Or zero on a given day 

because of drought or whatever. 

 But, it's the average over the 

entire grazing season. And as far as daily is 

concerned -- the only thing you're documenting 

is -- on a daily basis, you should be 

documenting that your animals are out on 

pasture. We're not looking for a lot of daily 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 125

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

recordkeeping beyond which you already do, I'm 

saying that my animals were out on pasture 

this day. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Okay. Thanks. 

It does say document how much dry matter is 

fed daily to each class of animal. So, that's 

what led me to think that it was daily. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. You're talking 

about the 70% part? Is that where you're 

coming from? 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Well, it's in the 

feed section under -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: OK. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: --(c)(2). So-- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: It's (2)-- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. Okay. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Yes, 237(c)-- 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: 237(c)(2) and 

(3). And (4). 

 MR. MATHEWS: You're documenting 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 126

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

the-- 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Document the 

percentage. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes, but you don't 

have to do that on a daily basis. I mean, 

that's the daily dry matter need that's in 

your feed ration. 

 MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Okay, that's a 

good clarification. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Now, I'm not saying 

that you go out and calculate it every day. I 

mean, you've got -- you go out and once a 

month you do your feed ration and figure out 

what the daily need will be during that month 

and that is what you use at one time. 

 MS. GRIFFIN: Hi, Siobhan Griffin. 

 A lot of us Northeast producers are worried 

about the fact that the cows have to be out in 

the winter. Often conditions are not suitable 

for the cows to be out. I know there are 

consumers in my area that have called animal 

welfare because some of my neighbors have 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 127

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

their cows out in cold windy conditions. And 

I don't think it's the intent of this pasture 

rule to have animals put in jeopardy in bad 

weather. In fact, Mr. Mathews suggested that 

there had been the intent to have inclement 

weather provisions to cover that. I consider 

myself a pretty hard-core hardcore grazer. We 

have made mistakes over the last 19 years 

since I've been grazing. Mostly in the 

winter, by pushing the issue on having the 

cows out and then finding out it was not 

appropriate for the health of the animal. 

 I get 35 below, actual temperature, 

on my farm sometimes in the winter. Also, my 

pastures are open to the wind. So, on a daily 

basis in the winter, I use my judgment and 

experience as a farmer to decide if my lane 

ways and my pastures are too icy or not. A 

lot of times I can sand my lane way and get 

the cows up to the pasture for their access to 

outside. But, if the wind and the cold 

combines, so that, I take off my hat and my 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 128

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

hood, and my ears literally hurt being out in 

the wind, that temperature and combination 

will freeze the tits off a cow. 

 One year, by mistake my hired guy 

left cows out while I was at a NOFA 

conference. Let them out to long in those 

conditions and I lost 10 cows to a terrible 

death. Their ends of their teats froze and 

then subsequently fell off. And once a cow 

does not have that teat sphincter to keep the 

bacteria out of her udder, she will die of E. 

coli or some environmental thing. Within a 

week, 10 cows were dead or on a truck. It was 

terrible. 

 And I've learned the hard way in my 

19 years with grazing, there's things we can 

do, like having cows in a sheltered woods 

where the wind is less of an issue. Things 

like that can be done. In my situation, I 

need to have access to the shelter of my barn 

in those conditions for my cows or it will be 

an animal welfare issue. And, I love my cows. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 129

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 They put a roof over my head and in exchange 

I take care of them the best I can. It 

involves lots of pasture. But if I have to do 

extra work and have them indoors protected 

from the wind, we need to do that. 

 And I think, I want to submit 

specific recommendations to the NOSB on what 

temperatures and wind combinations would 

require that. And that's going to be 

different on my farm than everybody else's 

farm because every farm is different. And I 

urge everybody to submit conditions where it 

is not to the benefit of your cows and their 

health and well-being to be outdoors. And 

this will be an exemption for inclement severe 

weather in the winter. And I think they need 

to be specific and and then the NOSB can come 

up with something that is going cover at least 

most of us, hopefully all of us, and protect 

our cows. Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Anyone else? 

Everybody looks like they're ready to fall 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 130

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

asleep. Arden. 

 MR. NELSON: Think we have enough 

time? My name is Arden Nelson. I'm a 

veterinarian and a dairy producer from 

Colorado. My comments today come to you on 

behalf of my wife and partner, Dr. Meg Catell, 

and myself only. I'm vice-president of the 

Western Organic Dairy Producers Alliance, but 

our comments will be forthcoming shortly, as a 

group. First of all, Richard Matthews, thank 

you. NOP, thank you. We've needed this a 

long time. The pasture rule is I think a huge 

step, but I remind you the first step, in a 

leveling the playing field for certified 

organic dairymen across this country. 

 Consumers should have renewed faith 

in our integrity of producing milk underneath 

this new addition to the organic rule. The 

second part of accomplishing what we really 

need in the industry, comes with enforcement. 

 And I would urge all of us as producers to 

look on our concerns and suggestions from the 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 131

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

certifier's standpoint and the ultimate goal 

of having this law enforced. Thank you, 

Richard Matthews. It's sorely needed. It's an 

ending and a beginning. Surprise, Ed. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? Let's 

not be bashful. Mr. Engelbert, you were 

rubbing your hands together -- 

 MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. 

 MR. MATHEWS: He looked like he was 

just getting ready to pounce. 

 MR. ENGELBERT: My name is Kevin 

Engelbert, I'm a certified organic dairy 

farmer from upstate New York. One of the 

longtime dairymen that Robert has referred to; 

we've been in the organic for about 30 years 

now. And, I wasn't going to speak. I don't 

need to hear myself talk and I just wanted to 

say thank you for all you've done. I know 

it's a big step forward. The one point that 

hasn't been addressed is, and I hadn't 

understood this myself when I read the rule, 

this requirement of 365 days a year for all 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 132

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

animals over six months of age. 

 Young calves that are six months 

old are about the size of a goat. And to 

require them to be outside on pasture in 

upstate New York or in a lot of northern 

conditions, excuse me, probably won't be -- 

you know, that definitely will be the animal 

welfare issue that also needs to be addressed. 

 But again, I thank everybody for all their 

hard work and I'm glad we've gotten to this 

point, and I look forward to the 

implementation and enforcement of this rule. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Again, please 

put any of those issues into writing to us and 

submit them to regs.gov. This gentleman over 

here was going to say something. 

 MR. SEGALLA: My name is Rick 

Segalla. I'm from Connecticut. I have a 100 

cow dairy in Connecticut. My concern with 

this, I'd like to say, I'm glad we've got the 

pasture rule coming out now. But, my concern 

is in the wintertime when -- at my operation, 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 133

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

I normally -- after milking in the morning, we 

move the cows from the barn. They go out into 

pasture area and they're allowed to come in 

when they want to during the day. And what 

I'm asking is, is it access to pasture or do 

we lock them all out in the pasture. If they 

want to come in and lay down inside or come 

back and eat out of the feed bunk, which is in 

the barn, do we have to provide them with a 

feeding systems outside or can they come back 

in the barn and go back out when they want to? 

 MR. MATHEWS: At what time of day 

are you talking about? What time of the year? 

 MR. SEGALLA: This is during the 

wintertime. In the summertime, they'll be out 

on pasture, but in the winter -- I mean, 

basically the operation is we open the gates, 

chase them out into the snow in the 

wintertime, except for when it's icy where the 

cow's going to get out there and do one of 

them numbers and end up split into a compost 

pile because of that. I'd like to be able, 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 134

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

you know, have the rule so that they have 

access to pasture, you know, during the day in 

the wintertime. 

 At nighttime, conditions can change 

so much during the night and you could get a, 

say a snowstorm that turns to ice in the 

middle of the night. So, I don't know whether 

it's in the welfare of the animal to lock them 

outside during the night or -- you know, where 

they're going to come in and be injured in the 

process in the morning trying to bring them 

in. Or during the night. I think the intent 

of the rule is to give the animals access to 

fresh air and sunlight and that could be 

accomplished in a lot of ways. I mean, 

you put them on pasture in the wintertime, and 

the ground is frozen, it's basically a 

barnyard anyway. They're not getting anything 

from it except exercise. And if they have 

outside access and exercise, I think it's very 

good for them, but I'm worried that if we're 

required to lock them outside at night, we're 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 135

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

going to have so many deaths -- you know, 

unnecessary deaths to the animals and reduce 

the lifespan of these animals' productive 

lives. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Okay, it's not our 

intent to create unsafe conditions for the 

animals. So, I would encourage you and 

others, to make additional comments on that. 

Under the regulations, you are supposed to 

provide for the health and safety of your 

animals. So, if we've propose something that 

you feel is detrimental to the health and 

safety of the animal, let us know. Tell us 

how to fix it. 

 MR. SEGALLA: Thank you. 

 MS. SHEA: Kelly Shea again, with 

Horizon Organic Dairy. Richard, I just want 

to clarify something. So, I hear you 

frequently say to the farmers that are 

standing up here Β- well, if you would submit 

that to us in writing, or clarify that in 

writing. And I'm assuming that you mean 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 136

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

clarify or submit in writing specific 

suggested changes to the regulations. 

 Because just to clarify, one of the 

reasons that we so heavily pushed for USDA to 

do these listening sessions is so that farmers 

voices could be represented by farmers. Not 

by activists saying they represented farmers 

or by processors saying they represented 

farmers. So, I just want to clarify that USDA 

is going to take all the comments made by 

farmers today, they will be submitted into the 

record with equal weight of written comments 

and be judged that way, as opposed to farmers 

needing to, once again, turn around and submit 

in writing, the same comments. Because, we 

believe that's a burden and that's why we 

asked for the listening sessions. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Yes, what -- what I'm 

getting at is that Β- okay, let me step back. 

 Everything that is said here today is being 

recorded. And a transcript will be developed 

and it will be put on the website and it'll go 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 137

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

into regs.gov as a comment. So, everything 

that's transpiring here now, is going to be on 

the record. It's a comment. 

 What I'm getting at is that when I 

hear expressions of concern, I want to 

internalize that and be able to come up with 

some specific language on how I fix what your 

concerns are. So, if you send me some ideas 

as to how that can be fixed, that's better 

than for me to stand or sit at my desk and 

say, okay, this is what their concerns are, 

here's how I think it should be fixed to 

address the concerns of the farmers. 

 And so, I know I'm asking you to do 

another step and maybe you can work that out 

through your organizations. But we need to be 

told how do we fix it from your perspective, 

not just from my perspective as to what it is 

you're asking me to do. Okay? I'm not 

trying to create more work for you and I do 

want to hear from the dairy farmers. And this 

may be the only way that we hear from a lot of 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 138

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

dairy farmers, is coming to meetings like 

this. And that's why we're holding the 

listening sessions. But again, if I interpret 

your intent, I may not get it exactly right. 

And the next step is a final rule. So, if 

you've got some specifics on how I fix that 

language -- some suggested rewording of that 

language, it would be greatly appreciated. 

Okay? Yes sir. 

 MR. GARDINER: Jim Gardiner again, 

dairy farmer, small businessman. I have a 

question for you. When you brought up the 

point of, you know, with replacement issues. 

You need data to, you know, help your judgment 

to get through to understand the last third of 

gestation. The data you use, does that have 

to come from a university or doctor's book or 

anything like that, or could that be can that 

be verified through, you know, applied 

research from farmers? 

 MR. MATHEWS: It could be your own 

experiences. Just tell us what your own 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 139

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

experience is. 

 MR. GARDINER: Okay, well, that -- 

 MR. MATHEWS: I mean all sources 

are welcome. 

 MR. GARDINER: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: But it could be just 

your anecdotal -- as your experience on your 

farm. 

 MR. GARDINER: OK, being that, when 

you have the last third of gestation, you 

know, when you look at that Rule, I know you 

made a comment, do we look at a fellow who is 

transitioning and part way through his 

transitioning, he needs to buy more animals 

before he's finished, does he buy organic or 

does he buy transitional. You know, or does 

he buy, you know, conventional animals and put 

them into the system? 

 MR. MATHEWS: Just to interrupt 

you, that somebody who is transitioning, that 

they're buying organic, they're no longer 

organic. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 140

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

 MR. GARDINER: Right. They'd be 

considered that transitional period again. 

 MR. MATHEWS: Right. 

 MR. GARDINER: Right. Okay, but-- 

 MR. MATHEWS: No, they wouldn't be 

going through a new transition -- 

 MR. GARDINER: They'd have to -- 

yes, you'd have to state stay stationary 

 MR. MATHEWS: Once they're organic 

and they come out of organic Β- 

 MR. GARDINER: Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: -- they're no longer 

organic. 

 MR. GARDINER: Right. Okay. 

 MR. MATHEWS: So, you cannot take a 

organic livestock animal off of an organic 

farm and put it on to another farm where the-- 

 MR. GARDINER: They're not 

certified. 

 MR. MATHEWS: -- operation is not 

certified as a livestock handler. 

 MR. GARDINER: Right, well, 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 141

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

pertaining to that, now that we have a pasture 

rule that's coming of age and coming into 

fruition. The experience I have had, being 

around other farmers and being on my own farm, 

has been that the cull rate of the cattle on 

pasture, once they've got into where the 

ruminant, you know, functions have adjusted, 

that the cull rate actually starts to 

decrease. And the amount of heifer raising 

and the amount of replacement animals actually 

starts to supersede what the farm needs and 

there he is a general sale or ability to sale 

of, you now, extra animals for dairy purposes. 

 So with that, you know, I would 

submit to you that part of the ongoing study 

which is from all organic farmers that you 

would consider in the last third of gestation 

that if these folks are short of animals and, 

you know, that instead of transitioning new 

animals, you know in 12 months, that it would 

be a last third no matter what. And then, on 

the exception, of the people who are 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 142

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

transitioning if they're coming in that's one 

little area. You're right, you can't bring an 

organic animal into that, but there are 

animals available once they get to their end 

of their time where they can be certified. 

 MR. MATHEWS: You give him one 

opportunity and he wants another one. 

 MR. ENGELBERT: Just one quick one, 

Richard. One thing that hasn't been addressed 

is what do you see happening now? We've got a 

comment period that's going to end December 

23. There's some controversial issues in here 

that don't really deal with pasture, such as 

the origin of livestock. Will that be pulled 

out and the Pasture Rule written and then 

posted? 

 And what kind of timeframe are you 

-- do you think we're looking at for that? 

When will this rule actually become effective? 

 Will there be any type of, like in the Harvey 

case, where they were given a year to adapt, 

will that be part of this new rule when it's 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 143

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

finally written, do you think? I mean, we're 

a patient group, but we'd still like to know 

what we're looking at as far as when this is 

gonna actually be on the books? Thank you. 

 MR. MATHEWS: I knew that question 

was going to come up, I just didn't know who 

was going to ask it. The real answer to that 

Kevin is that I really don't know how soon 

that it'll be out. I mean, there's going to 

be a lot of factors that play into this. It 

was hard getting the rule out to begin with 

and it wasn't because of the regulatory 

language that was in the rule, it was because 

of all the ancillary things, like the economic 

impact analysis, the regulatory flexibility 

act analysis, the paperwork burden analysis. 

So it's going to depend in large extent on how 

many comments we get. What kind of comments 

we get. And I think we're going to get a lot 

of comments. 

 I've heard a lot of issues here 

today, where people are going to want to have 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 144

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

this thing tweaked a little bit. Tweaking 

probably won't take a long time. The real 

challenge will be going back and addressing 

the data issue again. So that's why I 

emphasize that if you've got some data on what 

this means to you, please send that into us. 

 There's still lots of steps that it 

has to go through. I mean, the comment period 

will end on December 23rd. We'll get to work 

right away analyzing those comments. We'll 

get to work right away tweaking the 

regulations where they need to be tweaked. 

But it'll still have to go through all of the 

normal clearance processes. The advantage 

that we have is that with this rule having 

taken so long the first time, that we've been 

able to educate people in the office of Budget 

and Policy Analysis about organic. We've been 

able to educate the office of the Chief 

Economist. We've educated with the Small 

Business Administration. So we've been able 

to educate people on pasture and what it means 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 145

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to the dairy farmers. So, we shouldn't have 

to plow that ground all over again. Okay? 

So, it should not take anywhere near as long. 

 But to give you a date certain, I don't know. 

 As far as when would it start? 

Personally, I'd like to see it finalized as 

soon as possible, so that maybe, the spring of 

in 2010 everybody has to be in compliance. 

And that sounds like a long time because we're 

in 2008, but it won't be until spring/summer, 

probably under ideal conditions, that we have 

a final rule. And so, I'm sure that the 

economists will tell us that we have to give 

some time for people to come into compliance. 

 So, if we take it down a growing season, I 

would think that it would probably be fully 

implemented sometime early 2010. Now, that 

doesn't mean people should wait. 

 I think that you all have a good 

idea what it's going to be. And we're talking 

about tweaking it. And so, everybody should 

be planning that it's going to be pretty close 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 146

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

to what we've got right now. And so, you can 

start making your adjustments now. Okay? But 

again, I can't give you exact dates. And, I 

don't know what they're going to require of me 

as far as the full implementation date. All I 

can tell you is that we'll work pretty 

steadily to get it out. 

 Anything else? Anybody else? Look 

at that Kevin, you had almost the last word. 

 MR. MALTBY: I would like to thank 

you very much Richard and I think we should 

show a great appreciation. 

 (Applause.) 

 MR. MATHEWS: Thank you. Look at 

this. 

 MR. MALTBY: Yes, you had the time 

just right. It's now just after 12 o'clock. 

We should have been out of here about 30 

minutes ago. I would ask as you leave, you 

take your discussions out the hallway or into 

the restaurant, but don't stop and discuss 

stuff in here. 
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

 147

1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

 All of this information is going to 

be on the NODPA web site within 24 hours, 

www.nodpa.com. NODPA and the other groups 

across the country will be working on comments 

and thank you all for coming and safe trips 

home. 

 (Whereupon, the above-entitled 

matter was concluded at 12:20 p.m.)