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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARDS FOR 

 COMMERCIAL AND INDUSTRIAL PUMPS 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 + + + + + 

 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The Public Meeting met in Room 

8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., 

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, 

Meeting Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public 

 Solutions, Inc. 

JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy 

BETSY KOHL, Department of Energy 

CHARLES LLENZA, Department of Energy 

ALSO PRESENT 

ROBERT ASDAL, Hydraulic Institute 

ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical 

 Manufacturers Association 

ROB BOTELER, Nidec Motor Corporation 

DONALD BRUNDAGE, Southern Company 

MARK BUBLITZ, The New York Blower Company 

KITT BUTLER, Advanced Energy 

GREG CASE, Pump Design, Development & 

 Diagnostics 

JORDAN DORIA, Ingersoll Rand 

TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation 

 Council 

NEAL ELLIOTT, American Council for an Energy-
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 Efficient Economy 

RANDAL FERMAN, Ekwestrel Corp 

GARY FERNSTROM, California Investor Owned 

 Utilities 

AARON GOTHAM, Greenheck 

MARK HANDZEL, Xylem, Inc 

DAN HARTLEIN, Twin City Fan Companies, Ltd. 

JOHN HAZEN WHITE, Jr., Taco, Inc. 

SARAH HOWELL, Grundfos 

ALBERT HUBER, Patterson Pump Company 

MICHAEL IVANOVICH, Air Movement and Control 

Association International 

SANAEE IYAMA, Lawrence Berkeley National 

Laboratory 

TIMOTHY KUSKI, Greenheck 

CHRISTOPHER LAU, Navigant Consulting 

ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National 

Laboratory 

JON LEMMOND, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 

 Refrigeration Institute 

BRUCE LUNG, Alliance to Save Energy 

JANE LUXTON, Pepper Hamilton LLP 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 

 Project 

DAVID MCKINSTRY, Colfax Fluid Handling 

RODNEY MRKVICKA, Smith & Loveless, Inc. 

KEN NAPOLITANO, Xylem, Inc. 

LAURA PETRILLO-GROH, Air-conditioning, 

Heating, and Refrigeration Institute 

CALLIE REIS, Navigant Consulting 

MICHAEL RIVEST, Navigant Consulting 

GREGG ROMANYSHYN, Hydraulic Institute 

ALLISON ROSE, Artemis Strategies 

GREG ROSENQUIST, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute 

STEVE SCHMITZ, Grundfos 

ARNOLD SDANO, Pentair 

WADE SMITH, Air movement and Control 

Association International 

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency 

 Alliance 

MARK STEVENS, Air Movement and Control 

 Association International 
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JOHN STEVENS-GARMON 

GREG TOWSLEY, Grundfos 

DANIEL TROMBLEY, American Council for an 

 Energy-Efficient Economy 

BOB VALBRACHT, Loren Cook Company 

MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council 

DANIEL WEINTRAUB, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

SARAH WIDDER, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

ALISON WILLIAMS, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

DAVID WINIARSKI, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 

Call to Order and Opening Remarks 12 

 Doug Brookman 

 Facilitator 

Welcoming Remarks 12 

 John Cymbalsky 

 Program Manager for 

 Appliance Standards and 

 Building Codes 

 Department of Energy 

Introductions 14 

Agenda Review 17 

 Doug Brookman 

 Facilitator 

 Questions and Comments 22 

Brief Summary Remarks by Participants 22 

 Bob Asdal 22 

 Hydraulic Institute 

 Albert Huber 27 

 President 

 Patterson Pump Company 

 Gary Fernstrom 31 

 California Investor Owned Utilities 

 Joanna Mauer 32 

 Appliance Standards Awareness Project 

Introduction and Rulemaking Process 34 

Overview 

 Charles Llenza 

 Department of Energy 

 Questions and Comments 47 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) 

Legislative History and 55 

Coverage 

 Charles Llenza 

 Department of Energy 

 Items 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 61 

 Questions and Comments 61 

 Items 1-4 and 1-5 72 

 Questions and Comments 74 

 Item 1-6 79 

 Questions and Comments 79 

 Pump Styles 81 

 Questions and Comments 82 

 Item 1-7 84 

 Questions and Comments 84 

 Items 1-7, 1-8, 1-9 90 

 Questions and Comments 90 

 Item 1-10 95 

 Questions and Comments 95 

 Item 1-11 96 

 Questions and Comments 96 

 Item 1-12 101 

 Questions and Comments 101 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) 

 Item 1-15 112 

 Questions and Comments 112 

 Item 1-13 120 

 Alison Williams 120 

 Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

 Questions and Comments 121 

 Item 1-14 132 

 Questions and Comments 

 Items 1-23, 1-24, 1-25 133 

 Questions and Comments 134 

 Items 1-26 and 1-27 137 

 Questions and Comments 138 

 Items 1-16 and 1-17 139 

 Questions and Comments 142 

 Items 1-18 and 1-19 150 

 Questions and Comments 150 

Regulatory Regimes and Metrics 162 

 Questions and Comments 164 

 Items 1-20 and 1-21 165 

 Questions and Comments 165 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) 

 Item 1-22 173 

 Questions and Comments 173 

 Efficiency Metrics 178, 181 

 Questions and Comments 180, 185 

 Items 1-29, 1-30, 1-31 187 

 Questions and Comments 187 

 Item 1-32 and Item 1-33 190 

 Questions and Comments 190 

 Item 1-35 200 

 Questions and Comments 201 

 Potential Implementation Method 201 

 Questions and Comments 204 

 Items 1-37, 1-38, 1-39 210 

 Questions and Comments 210 

 Items 1-40, 1-41, 1-42 212 

 Questions and Comments 212 

Test Procedure 216 

 Sarah Widder 

 Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

 Item 1-43 123 

 Questions and Comments 123 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) 

 Items 1-44 and 1-45 226 

 Pump, Motor, VSD 227 

 Questions and Comments 229 

 Test Procedure Accuracy and 230 

 Repeatability 

 Item 1-47 232 

 Questions and Comments 232 

 Item 1-48 234 

 Questions and Comments 234 

 Item 1-49 236 

 Questions and Comments 237 

 Item 1-50 239 

 Questions and Comments 240 

Rulemaking Analyses 

 Market and Technology Assessment 

 Alison Williams 243 

 Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

 Items 3-1, 3-2, 3-3 243 

 Questions and Comments 246 

 Items 3-4, 3-5, 3-6, 3-7 248 

 Questions and Comments 251 

 Items 3-8, 3-9 259 

 Questions and Comments 260 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) 

 Item 3-10 263 

 Questions and Comments 263 

 Items 3-11, 3-12, 3-13 265 

 Questions and Comments 265 

 Items 5-2, 5-3, 5-4 272 

 Questions and Comments 275 

 Items 5-5, 5-6, 5-7 290 

 Questions and Comments 293 

 Items 5-14, 5-15, 5-16 297 

 Questions and Comments 298 

 Screening Analysis 

 Item 4-1 312 

 Questions and Comments 313 

 Engineering Analysis 

 Items 5-1 and 5-8 315 

 Daniel Weintraub 315, 326, 331 

 Navigant Consulting 

 Questions and Comments 318, 329 

 Items 5-9, 5-10, 5-11 341 

 Questions and Comments 346 

 Item 5-12 349 

 Questions and Comments 350 

 Manufacturer Impact Analysis 

 Item 12-1, 12-2, 12-A 352 

 Questions and Comments 357 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) 

 Mark-Ups Analysis/Energy Use Analysis 359 

 Sarah Widder 

 Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

 Items 6-1, 6-2, 6-3 359 

 Questions and Comments 363 

 Items 6-4, 6-5 368 

 Questions and Comments 368 

 Items 7-1, 7-2, 7-3, 7-4, 7-5 372 

 Items 7-6, 7-7, 7-8, 7-9 388 

 Questions and Comments 376 

 Life-Cycle Cost and Payback 390 

 Period Analysis 

 Alison Williams 

 Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

 Items 8-1, 8-2, 8-3, 8-4, 8-5 390 

 and 8-6 

 Questions and Comments 495 

 Shipments Analysis 399 

 Items 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 399 

 Questions and comments 

 NOPR Analyses 402 
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 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S (CONTINUED) 

Closing Remarks 410 

 Charles Llenza 

 Department of Energy 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:07 a.m. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 

4 everyone. Welcome. 

5 This is the U.S. Department of 

6 Energy's public meeting on Energy Conservation 

7 Standards for commercial and industrial pumps. 

8 Today is Wednesday, February 20th, 2013, here 

9 at the Department of Energy, the Forrestal 

10 Building, in Washington, D.C. 

11 My name is Doug Brookman from 

12 Public Solutions in Baltimore. 

13 Good to see you here this morning. 

14 Thanks for being here on time. We have a full 

15 day ahead of us. 

16 We are going to start this morning 

17 with welcoming remarks from John Cymbalsky. 

18 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug. 

19 I am John Cymbalsky. I am the 

20 Program Manager for Appliance Standards and 

21 Building Codes. 

22 I want to be the first to welcome 
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1 you here to our framework meeting on pumps. 

2 I note in the room we have a lot of 

3 first-timers to the regulatory process. So, 

4 hopefully, this isn't too scary an experience. 

5 We are going to try to take things slow. We 

6 have a lot of material to cover. Much of it 

7 is, in my opinion, a little dense, but let's 

8 take our time and get through it. 

9 I also want to plant a little seed, 

10 prime the pump, however you want to say it, 

11 but we have a meeting next Tuesday, so a week 

12 from yesterday, for the new Advisory Committee 

13 that we formed here at the Department. It 

14 would be nice if a few of the pumps guys 

15 showed up, guys or gals, whichever it might 

16 be, to the meeting. I think pumps might be an 

17 area to explore for a negotiated rulemaking, 

18 and the ASRAC Committee will be tackling 

19 issues in terms of forming working groups to 

20 do negotiated rulemakings. We definitely 

21 think pumps might be a product to explore in 

22 that frame of mind. 
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1 So, with that, let me send it back 

2 to Doug, and let's have a productive meeting. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 It is our tradition here to start 

5 with doing introductions around the room, and 

6 it gives you a chance, also, to get in the 

7 habit of turning these microphones on and off. 

8 So, I would like to start to my 

9 immediate left. If you would say your name 

10 and organizational affiliation, and we will 

11 just proceed around the table here. Good job. 

12 MR. HANDZEL: I'm Mark Handzel. I 

13 am with Xylem, Incorporated. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 MR. SCHMITZ: Good morning. 

16 Steve Schmitz with Grundfos. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

18 Edison Electric Institute. 

19 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano 

20 with Xylem, Incorporated. 

21 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Patterson 

22 Pump Company. 
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE. 

2 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 

3 Standards Awareness Project. 

4 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

5 National Electrical Manufacturers Association. 

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 

7 representing the California Investor Owned 

8 Utilities, which would be PG&E, the Southern 

9 California Edison Company, San Diego Gas and 

10 Electric, and the Southern California Gas 

11 Company. 

12 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest 

13 Power and Conservation Council. 

14 MR. ASDAL: Good morning. 

15 Bob Asdal, Executive Director, from 

16 the Hydraulic Institute. 

17 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural 

18 Resources Defense Council. 

19 MR. LUNG: Bruce Lung, Alliance to 

20 Save Energy. 

21 MS. KOHL: Elizabeth Kohl, 

22 Department of Energy General Counsel's Office. 
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1 MR. LLENZA: Charles Llenza, the 

2 Project Manager for the rulemaking. 

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

4 DOE. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand. 

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Daniel Weintraub, 

7 Navigant Consulting, Inc. 

8 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific 

9 Northwest National Laboratory. 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, 

11 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. 

12 MR. ROSENQUIST: Greg Rosenquist, 

13 Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. 

14 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant 

15 Consulting. 

16 MR. WINIARSKI: David Winiarski, 

17 Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: We are going to do 

19 the same thing in the back of the room. So, 

20 you can stand or sit, whatever, but speak 

21 loudly. And we will start in the front. 

22 (Laughter.) 
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1 The individuals at the table, we 

2 captured all that on the record. And since 

3 everybody is signed in, we will have a 

4 complete listing of who has attended. But, as 

5 a matter of courtesy, I will start with you. 

6 Please say your name and organizational 

7 affiliation. 

8 (Off-microphone introductions.) 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

10 So, thanks to all of you again for 

11 being here and for getting us a good start on 

12 the day already. 

13 All of you received a packet of 

14 information as you checked in this morning, 

15 both an agenda and a packet of PowerPoint 

16 slides. I am going to run through the agenda 

17 briefly. 

18 Immediately following this agenda 

19 review, there is an opportunity for anybody 

20 that wishes to do so to make brief summary 

21 remarks about issues that are important to 

22 you, as a precursor, as an early start to the 
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1 content that will be presented in these 

2 PowerPoint slides as we go on through the day. 

3 And immediately following those 

4 summary remarks, we will have an introduction 

5 and rulemaking process overview by Charles 

6 Llenza, as reflected in your agenda, if you 

7 are looking at it. 

8 Going from there, the legislative 

9 history and scope of coverage. 

10 We will take a break mid-morning 

11 about 10:30 or so. 

12 Following that, regulatory regimes 

13 and metrics. 

14 Immediately following that, test 

15 procedure. 

16 We will have lunch round about 

17 noon, whenever we get there. 

18 And returning from lunch, market 

19 and technology assessment; screening analysis. 

20 Following that, engineering 

21 analysis; manufacturer impact analysis. 

22 Then, markups analysis; energy use 
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1 analysis. 

2 We will take a break mid-afternoon. 

3 And then, immediately following the 

4 break, life-cycle costs and payback period 

5 analysis; shipments analysis; national impact 

6 analysis. 

7 Finally, NOPR analyses. 

8 And then, closing out the 

9 afternoon, next steps and closing remarks. 

10 At the end of the day today, there 

11 is another opportunity for anybody that wants 

12 to do so to make comments, things that have 

13 been missed, things that haven't been covered 

14 efficiently or effectively. So, there is yet 

15 another opportunity to do that. 

16 Questions and comments on the 

17 agenda? 

18 (No response.) 

19 There is a lot of material here, 

20 and some of it is quite new to all of you. We 

21 are going to try our very best to make sure 

22 that everybody stays with us. And if you have 
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1 questions as we are going along, please let me 

2 know and we will try to make sure they get 

3 answered as we go. 

4 I would ask for your consideration. 

5 As you see up here on the flipchart, please 

6 speak one at a time. Please say your name for 

7 the record each time you speak. You can say 

8 your organization or affiliation, if you want; 

9 just your name is probably sufficient. 

10 There will be a complete transcript 

11 of this meeting available, and we will talk 

12 about how you can access it. 

13 I am going to be recognizing 

14 individuals to speak by name as best I can. 

15 So, there will be a queue of individuals. 

16 I also wish to encourage comment 

17 back and forth between individuals. Sometimes 

18 that follow-on is very, very useful for the 

19 Department as it considers this information. 

20 If you would keep the focus here, 

21 please turn your cell phones on silent and 

22 limit sidebar conversations. 
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1 Please make sure to turn these 

2 microphones on and off each time you speak. 

3 You will get in the habit shortly. 

4 Please be concise. Share the 

5 airtime. There is a lot of content here. We 

6 will try to make this meeting as effective and 

7 efficient as possible. 

8 And for webinar participants, how 

9 many do we have joining us via the web? Ten. 

10 Welcome to the webinar participants. The 

11 Department is trying very hard to make these 

12 meetings accessible and successful for the web 

13 participants. 

14 Please keep your telephones on 

15 mute, so we don't have feedback here in the 

16 room. And if you wish to speak, we are going 

17 to try to get you that chance. Please raise 

18 your hand via the software that you are 

19 working in, and our web mistress will pass a 

20 note to me, and we will insert you in the 

21 conversation. 

22 Questions and comments? 
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1 MR. LLENZA: Also, I just want to 

2 add there are microphones in the back for the 

3 parties that are sitting in the back to come 

4 up to the microphone. We would appreciate 

5 using the microphones, so you can provide your 

6 comments -- 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

8 MR. LLENZA: -- and questions. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, let's 

10 begin. We have done the agenda review. We 

11 have reviewed norms. 

12 Let's start off, then, with brief 

13 summary remarks by anyone present who wishes 

14 to talk about issues that are important to him 

15 or her. 

16 Who would like to start? Bob? 

17 Please say your name for the record. 

18 MR. ASDAL: Thank you very much. 

19 Bob Asdal. I am Executive Director 

20 of the Hydraulic Institute. On behalf of our 

21 100 members, I would like to thank the 

22 Department for providing us this opportunity 
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1 to meet and discuss the framework document and 

2 beginning the process of a pump efficiency 

3 rulemaking. 

4 The Hydraulic Institute, 

5 established in 1917, represents the pump 

6 manufacturing industry in North America. We 

7 are a recognized authority with regard to 

8 pumps and pumping systems, and are an ANSI9 accredited standards-developing organization. 

10 HI represents a total of 105 

11 members that are pump manufacturers and the 

12 leading suppliers to the industry. We have 

13 historically led the pump industry in its 

14 approach to energy savings associated with 

15 pump systems optimization consistent with the 

16 strategic goals of the United States 

17 Department of Energy, and particularly the 

18 Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Group 

19 within the Department. 

20 And we come together today to share 

21 our members' collective knowledge with the 

22 Department and an effort to create a pump 
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1 efficiency rulemaking that considers the needs 

2 of all parties. 

3 In preparation for the meeting, we 

4 had read and, of course, discussed the 

5 framework document in great detail. The 

6 members have focused on several of the 

7 framework's key provisions and sections to 

8 discuss options, offer alternatives, and to 

9 work with the Department to deliver the 

10 greatest energy savings that are 

11 technologically-feasible and commercially- and 

12 economically-justified. 

13 So, today we appreciate the 

14 recognition by the Department of the 

15 complexity of this issue for the pump 

16 industry. And the members that are present 

17 here today, all of whom have introduced 

18 themselves, will explain our proposed product 

19 classifications to be covered, concepts 

20 associated with a globally-harmonized Minimum 

21 Efficiency Index, or MEI, as well as our 

22 recommendations for the adoption of a modified 
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1 version of existing ANSI HI test standards 

2 that could lead, also, to an HI-led labeling 

3 scheme and an HI-led pump test lab 

4 certification program. 

5 The greatest energy savings 

6 potential, as reported in my letters to the 

7 Department last year on July 11th and 

8 September 16th, deals with what we call an 

9 extended product approach with an Energy 

10 Efficiency Index, or EEI, for a combination of 

11 products, such as a pump, motor, variable 

12 speed drive, and control and feedback systems. 

13 And during today's meeting, we 

14 expect to have many questions for the 

15 Department and DOE consultants that will help 

16 us move through this rulemaking process. We 

17 will make every attempt to provide available 

18 supporting metrics and standards that will be 

19 discussed during today's session or by, 

20 certainly, the May 2nd deadline. 

21 So, we remain keenly aware of the 

22 members, of the needs of pump users in the 
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1 rulemaking process. We have established 

2 standards covering pumps, pump products, 

3 applications, installation, operation and 

4 maintenance, and applications in testing that 

5 are used across a wide selection of American 

6 industry and commercial establishments. 

7 HI has provided DOE with 

8 significant input on the Institute's standards 

9 as the basis of our recommendation. We have 

10 also partnered over the last year and a half 

11 with the leading energy-efficiency advocates, 

12 led by the Appliance Standards Awareness 

13 Project, in an effort to develop a consensus 

14 that best serves all parties. 

15 We would like to acknowledge the 

16 energy-efficiency advocates present today, and 

17 confirm that we stand ready to continue to 

18 jointly work through this complex rulemaking 

19 process that offers significant energy savings 

20 potential to the country. And the members and 

21 HI look forward to a productive day discussing 

22 this issue with the Department. 
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1 Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

3 Additional brief remarks here at 

4 the outset? 

5 MR. HUBER: My name is Albert 

6 Huber. I am President of Patterson Pump 

7 Company, and a member of the Board of 

8 Directors of the Hydraulic Institute. 

9 The Hydraulic Institute and its 

10 members are committed to improved energy usage 

11 by pumps and pump systems to deliver optimum 

12 energy savings through a balanced approach, 

13 considering the impact to the consumer, the 

14 industry, and the U.S. economy. 

15 As the Department of Energy is 

16 aware, HI has been actively working with the 

17 energy efficiency NGO community in this 

18 process. The Hydraulic Institute, along with 

19 the EE NGOs, recommended to the Department of 

20 Energy a two-pronged approach to reduce energy 

21 consumption in the United States related to 

22 pumping. 
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1 These two approaches are extended 

2 product, which brings much greater reduction 

3 in energy usage than pump efficiency alone, 

4 and Minimum Efficiency Index, which eliminates 

5 from the marketplace inefficient pumps. They 

6 are not presented as options, but two methods 

7 which should be utilized together in order to 

8 achieve the desired goal of significant energy 

9 reduction. 

10 The following is a summary of our 

11 recommended scope: 

12 The Hydraulic Institute advocates 

13 the pursuit of pump products that will lead to 

14 the reduction of -- 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert, pardon me. 

16 Pardon me for interrupting. 

17 MR. HUBER: Sure. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Your 

19 recommendations, your content, will it not be 

20 covered quite sufficiently by the PowerPoint 

21 slides that you have had a chance to look at? 

22 MR. HUBER: Well, not completely, 
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1 no. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I am wanting 

3 to provide an opportunity for individuals to 

4 raise important issues and, also, I am wanting 

5 to make sure that the content fits in the flow 

6 of the meeting, because it will be easier for 

7 the Department and everyone else to comment 

8 and stay with it -- 

9 MR. HUBER: Sure. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: -- if you follow my 

11 logic here. 

12 MR. HUBER: I follow. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't want to 

14 diminish your capacity to speak about 

15 important issues. So, you tell me what you 

16 want to do here. 

17 MR. HUBER: Well, we can wait. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: You could wait? 

19 MR. HUBER: Sure. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I am eager -- 

21 there is a lot of content here, and I want to 

22 get to it as efficiently as possible. But I 
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1 don't want to diminish your capacity to say 

2 something -- 

3 MR. HUBER: As long as we can say 

4 it at a later time, I am happy. 

5 MR. LLENZA: This is also Charles 

6 Llenza from the Department. 

7 You are more than welcome to enter 

8 statements into the record. So, if you have 

9 detailed statements, we are more than willing 

10 to take your statements. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We can take that 

12 written statement and just enter it into the 

13 record. 

14 MR. HUBER: That's fine. 

15 MR. LLENZA: It goes into the 

16 docket. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, I 

18 probably should have been more clear at the 

19 outset about the purpose of this introductory 

20 overview statement. But thank you for your 

21 consideration. 

22 MR. HUBER: Sure. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Other brief 

2 statements here at the outset? 

3 Gary Fernstrom. 

4 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom 

5 speaking on behalf of the California Investor 

6 Owned Utilities. 

7 We would like to express our 

8 appreciation to the Hydraulic Institute for 

9 inviting us and the other advocates to work 

10 with them over the past year in preparation 

11 for this process. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

13 Alex Boesenberg, do you wish to -- 

14 I thought you said. 

15 Joanna Mauer. 

16 MS. MAUER: Thanks. 

17 First, we would like to thank DOE 

18 for the opportunity to participate in today's 

19 meeting. Efficiency standards for pumps 

20 represent a significant energy savings 

21 opportunity, and we are pleased to see that 

22 DOE has already put significant effort into 
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1 developing a foundation to conduct the 

2 analyses for this important rulemaking. 

3 Over the past year, efficiency 

4 advocates, including ASAP, ACEEE, Alliance to 

5 Save Energy, Earth Justice, NEEA, NRDC, and 

6 PG&E, have been working with HI to try to work 

7 towards a consensus recommendation regarding 

8 pump efficiency standards. 

9 As we have indicated to DOE, our 

10 discussions have focused on clean water, 

11 commodity-type pumps. And we generally agree 

12 with HI's recommended scope of coverage. 

13 However, here at the outset, we 

14 wanted to highlight two additional pump types 

15 that we think merit consideration. The first 

16 is the category that DOE has referred to as 

17 double-suction pumps. Our understanding is 

18 that these are typically used for clean water 

19 applications and are commodity-type pumps, and 

20 may, therefore, be good candidates for 

21 coverage. 

22 The second category is circulator 
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1 pumps, including fractional horsepower 

2 circulators. As PG&E will explain in more 

3 detail, we believe that there is a significant 

4 energy savings opportunity in establishing 

5 standards for circulators both in terms of 

6 per-unit savings as well as national energy 

7 savings. 

8 Finally, we are pleased to see that 

9 DOE is considering ways to capture additional 

10 energy savings by including categories of 

11 pumps sold with motors and/or VSDs. I think a 

12 goal that we all share is to increase the 

13 market penetration of pumps sold with VSDs, 

14 which has the potential to achieve very large 

15 energy savings. 

16 As we will explain in more detail 

17 later on, we believe that one of the potential 

18 regulatory options presented in the framework 

19 document, Option 3, may provide a mechanism to 

20 help achieve the goal of greater market 

21 penetration of pumps sold with VSDs. 

22 We look forward to participating in 
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1 today's public meeting and to working with DOE 

2 and continuing to work with HI as this 

3 rulemaking moves forward. 

4 Thank you. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Other comments here 

6 at the outset? 

7 Albert, I am looking at you. Do 

8 you wish to read that into the record? Okay. 

9 Okay. 

10 Then, let's proceed, then, with the 

11 content and to Charles. These PowerPoint 

12 slides, we will be referring to these 

13 specifically as we go through the day, and you 

14 will get a chance to see both what we have 

15 covered and what lies ahead. 

16 Charles Llenza. 

17 MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, I welcome 

18 you to the meeting here at the Department of 

19 Energy. 

20 Basically, the purpose of our 

21 framework document public meeting is to 

22 present our preliminary analytical approach of 
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1 what we think the rulemaking should encompass 

2 and, also, to inform the interested parties of 

3 the beginning of the rulemaking and the 

4 process. 

5 It also provides a forum for 

6 discussion here at the Department, and it 

7 provides a process for which the stakeholders 

8 can provide comments to the Department of 

9 Energy. 

10 So, we encourage everybody here to 

11 submit data, information, your comments. And 

12 so, one of the important things you see here 

13 are these little boxes in green. These are 

14 the items that the Department is most 

15 interested in receiving comments on. 

16 So, through the presentation, we 

17 will highlight the discussion of these comment 

18 boxes. There is a comprehensive list of 

19 questions in your framework document. We have 

20 not provided them all in this presentation. 

21 So there are additional questions in the 

22 framework document. Please do not forget to 
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1 answer those that we don't necessarily 

2 specifically highlight at this meeting today. 

3 These item numbers correspond to 

4 those in the framework document, and we 

5 welcome your comments to those specific issues 

6 as we go through this presentation. 

7 We have a specific format we would 

8 like to have parties to use while submitting 

9 comments. Docket and RIN number would be 

10 mostly appreciated. We have set up an email 

11 address for you to provide comments to the 

12 Department. It is the preferred method of 

13 delivery for these comments. 

14 In addition to that, we were made 

15 aware of the complexity and time elements 

16 involved in reviewing what the Department 

17 provided in the framework. So, we proactively 

18 extended the comment period to May 2nd, 2013, 

19 which is a considerable amount of time. 

20 Hopefully, that would be sufficient time for 

21 all parties to make their comments known to 

22 the Department. 
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1 The rulemaking process. The Energy 

2 Policy and Conservation Act, EPCA, which is 

3 Public Law 94-163, established the Energy 

4 Conservation Program here at the Department of 

5 Energy for certain commercial and industrial 

6 equipment. 

7 Part C of Title III of EPCA 

8 includes pumps as covered equipment and 

9 authorizes DOE to issue standards, test 

10 procedures, and labeling requirements, 42 USC 

11 6311(1)(A). That is just a reference to where 

12 the Code is, if anybody is interested. 

13 In addition to that, the primary 

14 direction that the Department of Energy 

15 receives via the Energy Policy and 

16 Conservation Act, EPCA, is to develop new and 

17 amended standards designed to achieve the 

18 maximum improvement in energy efficiency that 

19 is technologically-feasible and economically20 justified. That is an important key element 

21 here in terms of the development of standards 

22 for the Department, and we think we have a 
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1 good rulemaking process which provides a 

2 schedule and time for analysis to do this. 

3 Okay. EPCA also directed the 

4 Department of Energy to consider seven factors 

5 for the analysis. As you can see, the EPCA 

6 requirements are in the first column, and the 

7 corresponding DOE analysis is on the 

8 corresponding column. 

9 Our process and schedule is 

10 developed in such a way, so that we can make 

11 the maximum use of developing the DOE analysis 

12 over the three-year time period for the 

13 rulemaking. 

14 So, here is our standard test 

15 procedure and standard rulemaking timelines. 

16 As you can see, we are at the framework 

17 meeting, which is this first chevron. We 

18 will, then, continue through a preliminary 

19 analysis period. Then there is the NOPR 

20 analysis period which is Notice of Proposed 

21 Rulemaking, which is a draft of the rule that 

22 we are proposing. And finally we have a final 
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1 rule, hopefully, within a three-year 

2 timeframe. 

3 Subsequently, we have a test 

4 procedure process that is intimately linked to 

5 our Energy Conservation Standard process, and 

6 that usually is about half the timeframe 

7 involved in developing. We have some 

8 flexibility on the movement of how soon or how 

9 fast we would like to get the test procedures 

10 for the Department out, but what I want to 

11 point out about these chevrons is the test 

12 procedures moves within the availability 

13 timeframe of the rulemaking because there are 

14 some requirements that we are mandated to 

15 accomplish in terms of having that test 

16 procedure finalized and published in The 

17 Federal Register in order for the Department 

18 to make use of that test procedure to 

19 establish Energy Conservation Standards. 

20 I have provided a link at the 

21 bottom here for everybody to go to, if those 

22 parties that are interested in more detail on 
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1 our rulemaking process. So, this is just a 

2 quick-and-dirty summary of our process 

3 timeframe. 

4 I am going to go through a little 

5 bit of what each one of these steps involves 

6 today. I am not going to focus on the test 

7 procedure necessarily, but mostly on the 

8 Energy Conservation Standard. 

9 So, today the framework provides an 

10 overview of the rulemaking process. We have, 

11 hopefully, provided you a good boilerplate as 

12 to what we see or where we see this rulemaking 

13 going for the Department of Energy. We 

14 provided some of our technical thoughts for 

15 the industry to review, and we also inviting 

16 comments on the proposed approach that the 

17 Department has issued. That was executed in 

18 The Federal Register framework notice that we 

19 published February 1st, 2013. 

20 So, that is this process now. The 

21 next step in the energy conservation process 

22 would be the preliminary analysis. The 
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1 preliminary analysis, basically, would take 

2 the comments from the framework public 

3 meeting. We review those comments and we 

4 provide response in the documents that are 

5 provided at the preliminary analysis. 

6 Each one of these steps would 

7 involve public meetings and issuing Federal 

8 Register documents with not only the comments 

9 to any of the previous questions that the 

10 stakeholders may have or assertions or 

11 technical direction that they wished the 

12 Department to follow, but also would provide 

13 further details on the analysis process the 

14 Department uses throughout, based on the seven 

15 factors, if you all remember that first slide 

16 I showed you back on EPCA. 

17 So, as you can see, the listing of 

18 analysis that is provided at the preliminary 

19 here, it is basically engineering analysis, 

20 manufacturer and user markups, energy use 

21 profiles, consumer life-cycle costs, LCC and 

22 payback periods. We look at shipments, and 
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1 one of the important things to note about the 

2 shipments is we need to get the shipments 

3 right because the shipments determine how much 

4 of everything we are going to account for, and 

5 that is going to weigh-in in terms of what 

6 savings the Department thinks we can achieve. 

7 There is additional analysis, 

8 national energy savings, and the NPV, Consumer 

9 Net Present Value. And then, there are some 

10 manufacturer impacts that we also try to 

11 provide. 

12 So, that is the preliminary 

13 analysis. This is in a nutshell. There is a 

14 little bit more meat to this, but not to 

15 panic. Everything gets published in a 

16 document, and we go back to having a public 

17 meeting and having this similar process go 

18 through for the preliminary analysis. 

19 The Department will, then, get 

20 comments back from the preliminary analysis 

21 and preliminary TSD, which will be provided in 

22 the preliminary analysis stage, and we will 
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1 continue fine-tuning the analysis the 

2 Department has presented at the preliminary 

3 analysis stage. And we will also weigh-in 

4 those impacts. 

5 We will, then, go back and propose 

6 standard levels for public comment, which 

7 basically it is like a draft rule at that 

8 point. And it will be published in The 

9 Federal Register and submitted for comments. 

10 We will have another meeting about that 

11 particular phase where the stakeholders and 

12 everybody will have time to come back to the 

13 Department and tell us if we are on track. 

14 And the goal, of course, of the 

15 Department is to have a final rule which would 

16 encompass any of the comments received for the 

17 draft notice, the Notice of Proposed 

18 Rulemaking. We will revise the analysis to 

19 make sure that the impacts to the standards 

20 and the way the impacts for the final rule are 

21 taken into account, based on stakeholders' 

22 comments. And, based on the DOE analysis and 
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1 our economic analysis, we will be providing 

2 standards that to be adopted in the final 

3 rule. 

4 Of course, as you can see, we have 

5 plenty of time, and we are looking at a 

6 planned spring 2016 issuance of the rule. 

7 Okay. So, I am just giving you an 

8 outline here of what the DOE plan is. Here is 

9 the schedule. This is the important slide. 

10 We had a timeframe to accomplish 

11 this. We would like to do this in three 

12 years. Sooner would be better, but I know how 

13 this process goes and the complexity of things 

14 not necessary lends itself to this. 

15 So we are at the framework public 

16 meeting. As you can see, that is the first 

17 box on the bottom of the slide. And that is 

18 after publishing the framework document. So, 

19 the next part of the process will be the test 

20 procedure NOPR document. And as you can see, 

21 this is not going to happen overnight. We are 

22 going to go back and look at your comments 
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1 that are provided by May 2nd, and we will be 

2 doing our review and analyses in addition to 

3 the test procedure requirements. The DOE Team 

4 will, then, be providing a Notice of Proposed 

5 Rulemaking based on not only what we have 

6 investigated through the rulemaking process, 

7 but, hopefully, comments that the stakeholders 

8 have provided us on testing and other 

9 requirements. 

10 This will be followed by a public 

11 meeting, as you can see. That is planned for 

12 fall of 2014. 

13 Subsequently, after the test 

14 procedure NOPR public meeting, we would also 

15 have close to a preliminary analysis document 

16 set up, hopefully, before the test procedure 

17 public meeting. 

18 That would follow, by it’s 

19 publication in The Federal Register and a 

20 public meeting subsequently. That is the 

21 third box on the bottom of the slide. 

22 And then, both are in a parallel 
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1 process. They are separate rulemakings, but 

2 uniquely tied-in processes here, the test 

3 procedure process and the energy conservation 

4 standard process. We will finalize the test 

5 procedure and, of course, the primary purpose 

6 of the test procedure is to have the 

7 collection of data points that we need to 

8 measure to outline what we need to have 

9 collected in terms of data in order for us to 

10 establish an energy conservation standard. 

11 So, that is why the Test Procedure rule will 

12 get published as a final rule before the 

13 Energy Conservation Standard is published. 

14 These requirements will be rolled at some 

15 point into the NOPR of the Energy Conservation 

16 Standard, and then, into the final rule. 

17 One thing to note, that the 

18 effective date of the standard would be three 

19 years after we publish the final rule. So, as 

20 you can see, nothing is going to happen 

21 overnight. So, one of the things to keep in 

22 mind is there is plenty of time and there is 
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1 also plenty of time for the industry to make 

2 adjustments to the standards set by the 

3 Department. 

4 Okay. So, that covers how it is 

5 supposed to work in this overview process. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Boesenberg. 

7 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

8 NEMA. 

9 In reviewing the authority, it 

10 wasn't clear to me, is a Tier 2 rule intended 

11 or authorized by the authority that grants 

12 this rule? 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy? 

14 MS. KOHL: What do you mean -- this 

15 is Betsy Kohl -- what do you mean by Tier 2 

16 rule? 

17 MR. BOESENBERG: I work in lighting 

18 mostly, and we have a lot of stuff that has a 

19 mandatory follow-up. 

20 MS. KOHL: I'm sorry, I am still 

21 not understanding. 

22 MR. BOESENBERG: You get a first 
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1 rule, and few years later you get a second one 

2 for the same things. 

3 MS. KOHL: Oh, sorry. Yes. The 

4 Energy Policy and Conservation Act requires 

5 us, at least once every six years, to go back 

6 and take a look at these things. So, there is 

7 nothing specific for pumps. There is just a 

8 general go back and take a look at a certain 

9 time interval. 

10 MR. LLENZA: So me standards we 

11 issued have what is called a look-back 

12 provision, and also some test procedures. So, 

13 nothing is left static. thisrequires us to 

14 look back at the test procedure first. Then, 

15 after we complete that, we go back and see if 

16 there is additional savings that the 

17 Department can achieve by getting a higher 

18 standard for pumps. But that is a process 

19 that we will have to determine for pumps and 

20 it takes another three years to get there. 

21 So, it is out in the future. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Charles. 
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1 MR. BOESENBERG: Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 

3 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom for 

4 the California IOUs. 

5 I have a comment about the process. 

6 The DOE process is punctuated by these 

7 meetings where you tell us what you are going 

8 to do and ask for our input. And then, that 

9 is followed by a long period of silence. 

10 And I think we would all be better 

11 served if there were the opportunity for some 

12 sort of dialog with the analysts in the 

13 interim, so we can flesh-out any 

14 misunderstandings and provide more information 

15 on a more continuous, rather than a very 

16 sporadic basis. 

17 MR. LLENZA: The only thing I could 

18 say about that -- maybe I will take a little 

19 liberty; don't panic (laughter) -- is that the 

20 Department is not against technical meetings 

21 with the industry. So, we are more than 

22 amenable to having technical meetings with the 
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1 industry and parties of interest and with the 

2 technical teams to discuss particular issues 

3 that might be of value to the Department to 

4 get input, additional input from the industry. 

5 So, that is something that can happen. 

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So, my feedback is 

7 that would be terrific because I think both HI 

8 and the efficiency advocates would appreciate 

9 the opportunity for a dialog as the analysts 

10 may have questions about the best way to 

11 proceed. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy? 

13 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl with 

14 the General Counsel's Office. You can also 

15 request meetings with the Department where we 

16 would listen to other things that you have to 

17 say about the rulemaking. And those are filed 

18 under our ex parte meeting guidelines, so that 

19 everyone knows that a meeting occurred and who 

20 was there and what was discussed. And those 

21 ex parte guidelines were published in The 

22 Federal Register, but if you would like them, 
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1 you can let me know and I will send them to 

2 you. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky? 

4 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks, Doug. John 

5 Cymbalsky, DOE. 

6 I would just like to add that, if 

7 this particular product goes the path of a 

8 negotiated rulemaking, it would be covered 

9 under the FACA guidelines, the meetings, and 

10 you would get more of what you are asking for 

11 in that process. So, like what we did with 

12 distribution transformers, which you were on 

13 the Committee, if it is decided that pumps is, 

14 again, prime for that type of activity, the 

15 Department would like to pursue that. And 

16 then, in that space you would get that real17 time back-and-forth, again, because it would 

18 be covered under the FACA guidelines because 

19 ASRAC is a FACA committee. 

20 So, otherwise, we would have to do 

21 this ex parte, if there is a fed in the room. 

22 If not, I know we have met with HI, our 
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1 contractors have met with HI to just discuss 

2 data, and that's okay. That is a separate 

3 meeting. 

4 The other thing we will try to do 

5 in these rulemakings -- and we have done it 

6 for a couple now -- is posting spreadsheets of 

7 information on our website. They are not 

8 proposals of any kind. It is just 

9 information. And so, that is another way that 

10 we can information out quicker than waiting 

11 for steps in a public meeting. 

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So, John, how is 

13 this determination made regarding which 

14 pathway to follow? 

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, next week, as I 

16 said at the outset, there will be a meeting. 

17 The first meeting of ASRAC will be on Tuesday, 

18 the 26th, and I encourage the public to 

19 participate in this. 

20 The Committee will decide and 

21 discuss which products could go that way, and 

22 the Committee will vote on that. 
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

4 Edison Electric Institute. 

5 Just in terms of following up, when 

6 you were talking about the ex parte meetings 

7 -- and for the record, we have had some with 

8 the Department -- that is just for the 

9 Department. That doesn't cover the analysts. 

10 That doesn't cover any analysts doing work for 

11 the Department. That is a separate issue, 

12 correct? 

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I believe I 

14 stated that that would be a separate process, 

15 yes. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And again, 

17 Steve Rosenstock. 

18 Yes, I think the issue is that, 

19 again, I think if there is meeting with the 

20 analysts outside of DOE, I think since there 

21 are multiple stakeholders here, I think there 

22 should be some information provided to other 
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1 stakeholders if there is some sort of meeting 

2 with the analysts outside of DOE that other 

3 stakeholders should be informed, because, 

4 obviously, it could impact the analysis. 

5 Thank you. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy Kohl? 

7 MS. KOHL: This is Betsy Kohl. 

8 So, meetings with our analysts and 

9 technical folks are only to provide technical 

10 data and discussion. There is no policy 

11 issues discussed. That is what the ex parte 

12 rules are for, so that everyone is aware of 

13 those. 

14 And any information that we get out 

15 of those technical meetings is, obviously, 

16 when it becomes part of the rulemaking record, 

17 subject to public comment, and it is out 

18 there. 

19 MR. LLENZA: Just want to add that 

20 the Department enters these meetings, any 

21 information, agenda, issues discussed, etc., 

22 into the docket, so people would have public 
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1 access to it. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charles. 

3 Other questions here about these 

4 issues? These are important, these access-to5 communication issues. 

6 (No response.) 

7 Okay, Charles. 

8 MR. LLENZA: Okay. I am going to 

9 go to issue 3 on the agenda. This is the 

10 legislative history and coverage for pumps, 

11 scope of coverage. 

12 So, currently, DOE has no Energy 

13 Conservation Standards for commercial and 

14 industrial pumps. The authority provided in 

15 EPCA provides DOE, Part C, Title III of EPCA, 

16 includes pump coverage and authorizes DOE to 

17 issue test procedures, standards, labeling 

18 requirements, whatever the Department 

19 determines through this process that is 

20 necessary for this rulemaking. 

21 So, we published back in June 2011 

22 with an RFI and received comments from 
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1 stakeholders. Those comments were rolled into 

2 our framework. We did not provide responses 

3 at the time, but we hoped that our framework 

4 document has provided, put to the forefront 

5 some of these issues and provided some clarity 

6 as to what the Department wants to do with the 

7 information received from the RFI. 

8 As you were talking about technical 

9 meetings, we have had several technical 

10 meetings here at the Department, not only 

11 technical meetings, but we have had meetings 

12 here at the Department with the Appliance 

13 Standards Awareness Project and the Hydraulic 

14 Institute in December 2011 regarding the 

15 potential Energy Conservation Standards for 

16 commercial and industrial pumps. And there is 

17 a letter, ex parte letter/memo in our pump 

18 docket. 

19 Also, as of today, we had a 

20 technical meeting, I believe, in Colorado. I 

21 believe it was May last year. And so, we have 

22 these in the docket, if people might be 
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1 curious about these. 

2 We like to keep them strictly 

3 technical. Let's stick to the technical 

4 issues. We are more than willing to attend 

5 and think these are a good thing. We are 

6 being educated, basically, and you guys are 

7 the experts. So, you are more than welcome to 

8 tell us the way things are supposed to be. 

9 And so, today this meeting has been 

10 called based on the framework notice that went 

11 out February 1st. 

12 Okay. So, here we go with some of 

13 what we think this rulemaking is going to look 

14 like. These are the pumps that DOE is 

15 considering for standards. So, we have looked 

16 at all sorts of pumps. There is a lot out 

17 there. And the Department has now zeroed into 

18 a few categories, and I this is what we are 

19 asking for you to provide your comments and 

20 input. 

21 So, we have clean water pumps. We 

22 have looked at the EU regulations, and we 
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1 define clean water as per what we have seen 

2 from the EU, pumps designed for clean water. 

3 And part of what we will be doing, also, is 

4 trying to provide definitions for these for 

5 which we don't have any. So, part of this 

6 process is that we have provided drafts on 

7 what we think the definitions should be. The 

8 input from the stakeholders should be if that 

9 is a good definition or not a good definition, 

10 and then provide us what they think it should 

11 be with examples. 

12 At this time we are not considering 

13 covering wastewater, slump, slurry, solids14 handling, AP1610 pumps. Possibly consider 

15 covering ANSI chemical pumps, pumps for other 

16 liquids with no solids that behave similarly 

17 to water. 

18 The other type of pumps is 

19 rotodynamic, clean water pumps. Again, we 

20 have looked at some EU regulation that is out 

21 there. I think they have had the lead on this 

22 for a while in terms of the regulatory 
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1 environment. So, we have sort of borrowed 

2 from their playbook a little until we get our 

3 footing with this rulemaking and 

4 thestakeholders input in the U.S. industry. 

5 Clean water pumps represents about 

6 70 percent of sales by value and 90 percent of 

7 pump energy use. We are not considering 

8 positive displacement pumps at this time. 

9 So, we come to our first chevron. 

10 Are there questions first? 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, questions? 

12 Steve Rosenstock? 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

14 Yes, a question on the -- well, you 

15 are going to get to that. I will wait until 

16 you go over your Request for Comments, and 

17 then I will have a question on that last 

18 slide. Thank you. 

19 MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, these are 

20 the Requests for Comments. These are kind of 

21 the questions we have. DOE seeks comments on 

22 the proposal to cover only clean water pumps 
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1 in this rulemaking. Important: do we have 

2 other things that we want to cover? That is 

3 1-1. 

4 Item 1-2, DOE requests comments on 

5 whether it should rely on these definitions 

6 for clean water. It could be -- coverage of 

7 pumps, as the EU does. Or, if, instead, the 

8 definition of clean water pumps should include 

9 physical characteristics that distinguish 

10 pumps designed to clean water or exclude pumps 

11 designed for other purposes. That would be 

12 Item 1-2. 

13 Item 1-3, DOE seeks comment on the 

14 list of physical differences that may exist 

15 between pumps designed for clean water and 

16 pumps designed for other substances. That is 

17 important if we are going to try to cover 

18 other substance-type pumps. 

19 Specifically, on this is the list 

20 accurate and exhaustive? Do anydifferences 

21 impact energy efficiency? Do the differences 

22 increase cost? And other things that you 
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1 might know of that DOE should be made aware 

2 of. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: You can imagine, 

4 since we are creating a complete transcript of 

5 this meeting, to make these comments fairly 

6 systematic, it makes it much easier for 

7 everybody to follow a couple-hundred-page 

8 document. 

9 So, I would like to proceed with 

10 Item 1-1, and then to 1-2 and 1-3. So, let's 

11 receive comments on those. 

12 Yes, please, Steve. 

13 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 

14 Steve Schmitz, Grundfos, 

15 representing the Hydraulic Institute. 

16 The Hydraulic Institute believes 

17 that, in order to capture the largest 

18 population of potential energy savings, HI 

19 recommends aligning with the European Union 

20 Directive 547, 2012. This Directive focuses 

21 on non-engineered, non-specialized pumps and 

22 standard design, as you have already 
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1 mentioned, applied in clean water 

2 applications. 

3 Later on, we will get into some of 

4 the specifics. So, I won't jump to that, in 

5 the essence of time. 

6 I would like to point out that 

7 there are two additional areas in the EU 

8 Directive that exclude two types of pumps 

9 which you did not mention here, which is fire 

10 pumps and self-priming pumps. We are 

11 recommending that those be excluded as well 

12 within part of the EU Directive. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 

14 you. 

15 Steve Rosenstock? 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

17 Edison Electric Institute. 

18 If you could scroll back to the 

19 previous slides, just again, it says DOE may 

20 define clean water or use a separate 

21 definition. Again, that could be kind of 

22 critical in terms of, depending on how you 
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1 define it, in terms of parts per million of 

2 certain particles. That could make a 

3 difference in terms of what is covered under 

4 that category. And again, I am not familiar 

5 with the EU definition, but if they have 

6 different standards, that can make quite a 

7 difference compared to U.S. standards in terms 

8 of, quote, "how it is defined by EPA," for 

9 example under the Clean Water Act. 

10 The second thing I wanted, because 

11 I am a numbers person, in the second part it 

12 says, "Represents 70 percent of sales by value 

13 and 90 percent of pump energy use." That is 

14 within the Clean Water Pump Category? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, I think so, 

16 right? 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, 

18 LBNL. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, find a 

20 microphone. I'm sorry. Alison? Thank you. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the 70 percent 

22 and 90 percent are for rotodynamic pump types 
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1 that are used for clean water, but they are 

2 not all necessarily clean water pumps. They 

3 are types that can be used for clean water. 

4 And we have further numbers later. 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And again, 

6 Steve Rosenstock. 

7 I appreciate that clarification. 

8 Again, it was just kind of written 

9 out there as if it wasn't -- I wasn't clear. 

10 This is just under the Clean Water Category? 

11 It is not a chemical pump or the other liquid 

12 pumps that are out there. It is just 70 

13 percent and 90 percent of the clean water 

14 pumps? 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean, it is a 

16 little more. First of all, it is an estimate, 

17 just to try to get an overview. But it is 

18 also, again, rotodynamic pump types that could 

19 be used in clean water. So, it may include 

20 some ANSI chemical process pumps because a lot 

21 of them can be used in clean water. 

22 There are further slides with a 
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1 little bit better desegregation. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, go ahead. 

4 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 

5 Just to clarify, Steve, to your 

6 question about clean water, and to jump to the 

7 1-2, there is an ISO 9906 standard out of 

8 Europe that defines clean water. There is a 

9 difference between clean water and drinking 

10 water as defined by the EPA. And we are 

11 encouraging the use of the definition from the 

12 ISO standard. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

14 Gary Fernstrom? 

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Could we ask HI to 

16 clarify what is meant by self-priming? In my 

17 view, there are a lot of clean water pumps 

18 that are to some extent self-priming. The EU 

19 and you would want to exclude those? What 

20 exactly do you mean by self-priming? 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

22 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 
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1 Well, self-priming pumps are pumps, 

2 of course, that have to pull substantial NPSH 

3 to pull the water up and recirculate the 

4 pumps, to, in essence, energize the pump, so 

5 it can begin moving the water. And so, there 

6 is a category of pumps specifically applicable 

7 to the self-priming that, because of that very 

8 nature, the high water recirculation and the 

9 NPSH lift, it is by nature very much less 

10 efficient. 

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So, to fit into the 

12 term "self-priming," there is some significant 

13 net suction pressure that these pumps are 

14 dealing with. And ones that deal with minimal 

15 suction pressure are not deemed self-priming? 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, please. Go 

17 ahead. 

18 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 

19 No, you can have pumps that are low 

20 suction pressure that are not necessarily 

21 self-priming, pumps as in boiler feed, 

22 domestic hot-water-type applications, of 
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1 course. But there are other pumps that are 

2 specifically designed, and the intent and the 

3 usage is for self-priming to fill the line and 

4 energize it for the system. 

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. Well, my 

6 observation is we want to be careful not to 

7 exclude an important segment of pumps that may 

8 deal with some minimum suction pressure, but 

9 are not deemed to be self-priming. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

11 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano, 

12 Xylem and the Hydraulic Institute. 

13 I think maybe just a little 

14 clarification. Self-priming pump, as we are 

15 defining it, is not an application. It is a 

16 specifically-designed machine for certain 

17 types of applications; namely, when water is 

18 below the surface of the pump. 

19 And so, because it is designed 

20 specifically to draw water from below, there 

21 are certain design characteristics that have 

22 to be met to make it function as it is 
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1 intended, which don't necessarily correspond 

2 with efficiency. So, in other words, you make 

3 some tradeoffs between the ability to suck 

4 from below the ground and the efficiency. 

5 Otherwise, they don't work properly. And it 

6 is a relatively-small -- I don't know the 

7 number off the top of my head -- but it is a 

8 relatively-small portion of the population. 

9 So, that was the thought process. 

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

12 I would like to proceed with these 

13 question box items, 1-1, 1-2, and 1-3. So, 

14 maybe look at what is there on your PowerPoint 

15 slide and let's respond to those. 

16 Neal? 

17 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE. 

18 With respect to the question about 

19 coverage, this 1-3, coverage beyond clean 

20 water, including chemical pumps, from ACEEE's 

21 perspective, it would be I would prefer to see 

22 us at this point focus on clean water and not 
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1 introduce in the additional issues associated 

2 with chemical pumps. 

3 We run into both material with 

4 respect to the pump itself, but also seal 

5 considerations that could have significant 

6 impact on the pump efficiency. I think we are 

7 dealing with what is initially a very complex 

8 rulemaking. And I think simplifying it for 

9 this initial phase and focusing on clean water 

10 would be better than additional complexities 

11 of trying to deal with non-water fluids. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

13 MR. SCHMITZ: Yes, I would support 

14 what Neal is saying and reiterate that what we 

15 are proposing as part of the EU Directive does 

16 provide the greatest breadth of unit volume in 

17 the marketplace for the greatest energy 

18 savings. It is the most expeditious path 

19 forward for implementation. It offers the 

20 greatest global alignment with the EU 

21 Directive, as previously noted, and it does 

22 support the Executive Order 13-609 from May of 
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1 this last year for international regulatory 

2 cooperation. 

3 And then, it aligns and supports 

4 the Energy Independence and Security Act for 

5 motor ranges that are already defined by the 

6 DOE. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Is there someone to 

8 specifically just answer the questions that 

9 are listed in 1-3. 

10 MR. HANDZEL: Obviously, HI's 

11 position is to support clean water and to 

12 follow the European standard that already 

13 exists. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you speaking on 

15 behalf of your company or -- 

16 MR. HANDZEL: I am speaking on 

17 behalf of the Hydraulic Institute -- 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

19 MR. HANDZEL: -- and my company. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Both? 

21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? 

22 So, just to answer the question, in 
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1 1-3, there is a list of some features of pumps 

2 that are listed. And so, just to answer, no, 

3 the list is not accurate and exhaustive. Yes, 

4 the differences definitely impact 

5 efficiencies. So, the second point of does 

6 these differences impact efficiencies, yes, 

7 they definitely do. 

8 And the third point, yes, the 

9 differences will definitely lead to an 

10 increased cost. 

11 There are further questions in the 

12 document that we will go into more detail that 

13 will provide some additional detail around 

14 these answers. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. 

16 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And just to 

18 be clear, especially for those of you that are 

19 new to the proceedings, anything that you 

20 haven't covered sufficiently in this meeting 

21 today, the Department welcomes your exhaustive 

22 and detailed comments in writing. Okay? 
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1 Gary Fernstrom? 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: One more quick 

3 comment. Gary Fernstrom. 

4 We are interested in asking the DOE 

5 to consider including circulator pumps. If I 

6 understand it, none of these issues on the 

7 screen expressly exclude circulator pumps 

8 because they are clean water pumps. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

10 Have we covered sufficiently 1-1, 

11 1-2, and 1-3? 

12 (No response.) 

13 I think for now. 

14 Okay. Now so, Charles, walk us 

15 through 1-4 and 1-5, please. 

16 MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, 1-4, DOE 

17 seeks comments on whether it should consider 

18 standards for pump design for non-water 

19 liquids -- we are repeating ourselves a little 

20 bit -- that contain limited solids in this 

21 rulemaking. It is important, if we are going 

22 to stick to one type or the other, or if we 
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1 want both. 

2 DOE is specifically interested in 

3 ANSI chemical process pumps, API 610 pumps, 

4 sealless, if I am pronouncing that right, 

5 magnetic drive, canned, and cantilever pumps, 

6 sanitary pumps, refrigerant pumps, general 

7 industrial pumps. And when suggesting pump 

8 types for which standards should not be 

9 considered, please be specific as to the 

10 reason why. 

11 So, tell us what you want covered 

12 and tell us what you don't want covered. And 

13 we would appreciate, also, reasons why, pros 

14 and cons. 

15 Item 1-5, DOE requests comments on 

16 whether any design changes made to the 

17 standard clean water pumps would carry through 

18 to pumps designed for other applications. So, 

19 this is basically, if we go with the clean 

20 water pumps, what are some of the design 

21 changes that would carry over to the non-clean 

22 water pump types? 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And it looks like 

2 Mark is ready, and that is on behalf of HI, 

3 right? 

4 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, that is correct. 

5 Mark Handzel, Xylem, Incorporated, 

6 and a member of the Hydraulic Institute. 

7 The members of the Hydraulic 

8 Institute feel that pumps designed for non9 water liquids should be exempt from the 

10 efficiency regulations because they are 

11 typically designed to comply with other key 

12 requirements, such as safety and reliability. 

13 For example, to assure better 

14 safety and reliability, these pumps could be 

15 designed with wider internal clearances, 

16 oversized shafts, and oversized bearings. All 

17 of these could lead to reduced efficiencies. 

18 I have a long description of ANSI 

19 pumps and API pumps that I will provide 

20 instead of reading to you. But, basically, it 

21 goes through and designs how these criteria 

22 lead to compromising the efficiency of the 
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1 pumps in order to be more reliable and more 

2 safe. So, particularly when you are handling 

3 fluids like petroleum products or higher 

4 temperatures that go well beyond the scope of 

5 what has been proposed in the framework 

6 document. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And does 

8 that, then, address fairly completely what 

9 should be covered and not covered? 

10 MR. HANDZEL: So, the two specific 

11 areas that we are addressing is ANSI chemical 

12 process pumps and API 610 pumps as well as the 

13 variations that are listed after it. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

17 Other comments on that? 

18 And then, moving to 1-5, design 

19 changes made to standard clean water pumps 

20 would carry through pumps designed for other 

21 applications. 

22 Steve Rosenstock? 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick 

2 question here. And again, I didn't know the 

3 definition, but if it is an industrial pump 

4 that is a clean water pump, an industrial 

5 facility for an industrial process, what would 

6 that qualify as a clean water pump if it is 

7 also classified as an industrial pump? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, 

10 LBNL. 

11 So, DOE is just considering some 

12 different definitions here. So, I think the 

13 answer to that depends on the final 

14 definitions that are decided. 

15 MR. LLENZA: So, that is subject to 

16 further modifications from your interpretation 

17 or to our interpretation of your 

18 interpretation. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I am wondering if 

20 anybody from the industry -- Mark, do you want 

21 to try with that? 

22 MR. HANDZEL: So, we struggle with 
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1 this question as well. Primarily because we 

2 manufacture pumps, we don't necessarily always 

3 know the applications that they are going to 

4 be used in. 

5 So, Alison is definitely right that 

6 there could be pumps in these classifications 

7 that could be used on clean water. So, there 

8 is that possibility. 

9 Obviously, the point we are making 

10 is that there are many compromises that are 

11 made to handle the more aggressive 

12 applications that these pumps are typically 

13 designed for. So, it makes it very difficult 

14 to apply efficiency rules to them 

15 specifically. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

17 Ken first, and then, to Steve. 

18 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano, 

19 Xylem and HI. 

20 I think the position that we are 

21 taking is that, first of all, agreeing to 

22 clean water, what that means, and I don't 
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1 think we are that far off there. 

2 And then, using that to determine a 

3 scope of products that are primarily designed 

4 for that application. So, ultimately, it 

5 leads you to a definition of XYZ products, so 

6 that you get away from the application, 

7 because it is virtually certain that you could 

8 take almost any pump, even though it may be 

9 designed for benzene or hydrochloric acid or 

10 heavy slurry, and pump water with it, because 

11 that is easier than the application, if you 

12 will, that it was intended for. 

13 So, I think we are making is define 

14 what clean water is. We agree on that, what 

15 pumps are primarily designed for clean water, 

16 and then create the scope that way. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve 

18 Schmitz? 

19 MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz. 

20 To reiterate what Ken said, yes, 

21 pumps in those types of applications could be 

22 used in clean water. Typically, they are 
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1 going to be two to four times more expensive 

2 than just a clean water pump. So, the 

3 likelihood of that being done on a purposeful, 

4 consistent basis is very remote. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, then, 

6 have we addressed 1-5? 

7 (No response.) 

8 Okay. 

9 MR. SCHMITZ: Just to reiterate 

10 that HI does not believe any design changes 

11 for clean water pumps would carry through to 

12 other applications. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I would like to say 

14 the quality of the comment is excellent. This 

15 really helps the Department. So, let's keep 

16 on with that. 

17 Charles Llenza? 

18 MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, we are Item 

19 1-6. DOE seeks comments on its proposal to 

20 consider standards for rotodynamic pumps -- 

21 somebody asked about that; -- and not positive 

22 displacement pumps. 
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1 In particular, DOE requests 

2 comments on the extent of the overlap between 

3 rotodynamic and positive displacement pumps 

4 and whether there are certain categories of 

5 rotodynamic pumps, pump types and ranges of 

6 flow and specific speed, et cetera, for which 

7 positive displacement pumps could not be a 

8 direct replacement. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark? 

10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel of Xylem 

11 and the Hydraulic Institute. 

12 The members of the Hydraulic 

13 Institute wish to confirm that positive 

14 displacement pumps represent a small 

15 percentage of the overall pump market and are 

16 generally used in niche applications such as 

17 pumping viscous or shear sensitive fluids. 

18 Because positive displacement and rotodynamic 

19 pumps provide different application solutions, 

20 economic issues generally prevent overlap of 

21 these two pump designs. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 
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1 Are there other comments on this 

2 one? 

3 (No response.) 

4 Then, we are going to move on. 

5 MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, for the 

6 pump type for which DOE is considering 

7 standards here is what DOE has proposed for 

8 terminology. So, this table basically 

9 provides a matrix of that. 

10 And I will just go over the 

11 terminology, and request your better 

12 terminology,: End Suction Close Coupled, End 

13 Suction Frame Mounted, In-Line, Double 

14 Suction, Axial Split Multi-Stage, Radially 

15 Split Multi-Stage, Vertical Turbine, 

16 Submersible, and Axial/Propeller and Mixed. 

17 As you can see, it is specific to the pump 

18 type. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So, this 

20 classification here, you would like 

21 confirmation on those listed here in yellow -- 

22 MR. LLENZA: Right. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- or corrections, 

2 whatever. 

3 MR. LLENZA: Based on the pump 

4 type. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Albert, 

6 please. 

7 MR. HUBER: HI proposes that we or 

8 our proposal is that we stick with the ANSI/HI 

9 nomenclature as we have presented to the 

10 Department, along with the corresponding 

11 descriptions. These are nomenclature and 

12 descriptions that are widely used in the 

13 industry and known by the industry and, also, 

14 by the users in the marketplace. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And are those 

16 consistent with what is listed here in yellow? 

17 MR. HUBER: No. The descriptions 

18 are not, no, they are not. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

20 MR. LLENZA: So, the Department 

21 would appreciate great detail on that. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I see Alison. 
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1 Please. 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, 

3 LBNL. 

4 One of the subsequent comments 

5 specifically asked for the ANSI/HI 

6 nomenclature that would go along with these 

7 because what has been provided so far was not 

8 comprehensive of the categories DOE is 

9 considering. So, DOE is definitely open to 

10 that and is requesting specific comment on 

11 matching those things up. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex, yes? 

13 Pardon me. Albert, yes, okay? 

14 Steve Rosenstock? 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

16 EEI. 

17 Yes, clarification on the table. 

18 Where everything is totally blocked out, you 

19 know, again, does that mean you are not 

20 covering those and DOE is not thinking about 

21 covering those? I just wanted to get a 

22 double-check on that. 
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, 

2 LBNL. 

3 Yes, that is correct. Those are 

4 not currently considered for coverage and, as 

5 far as we understand, are not covered in the 

6 EU, either. 

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. That 

8 helps. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I am looking for 

10 additional input from industry here. Mark? 

11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel with 

12 Xylem and a member of the Hydraulic Institute. 

13 So, this is specifically in regard 

14 to Question 1-7. So, I am not sure if we are 

15 ready to go to that. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we are ready 

17 to do that. 

18 MR. LLENZA: Yes, we are ready to 

19 go to that one. 

20 MR. HANDZEL: So, as you have heard 

21 from a number of our speakers, you know, we 

22 are pretty firmly behind supporting staying in 
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1 line with the current EU standards. So, a 

2 prepared statement analysis of the U.S. pump 

3 market confirms that the variety of existing 

4 products in numerous market segments, each 

5 with unique requirements, is too wide and 

6 complex, as similar design across multiple 

7 market segments are applied differently, 

8 resulting in a large number of unique product 

9 variations. 

10 In order to capture the largest 

11 population of potential energy savings, the 

12 Hydraulic Institute recommends aligning with 

13 the European Directive EU No. 547-2012. The 

14 EU Directive focuses on non-engineered, non15 specialized pumps and standard design applied 

16 in clean-water-only applications for the 

17 broadest scope. 

18 Expansion beyond the EU Directive 

19 parameters will add complexity and cost to the 

20 tasks of the manufacturers and create a 

21 significant financial burden for us to gain 

22 compliance. 
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1 Specifically related to double2 suction pumps and vertical turbines beyond 6-

3 inch bowl assemblies, HI recommends that these 

4 products be excluded from the first version of 

5 the DOE ruling to stay in alignment with the 

6 EU specifications and, further, avoid this 

7 financial burden on pump manufacturers. 

8 Double-suction pumps and vertical turbines 

9 beyond 6-inch bowl assemblies could be added 

10 in subsequent Phase 2 addition to capture 

11 additional energy savings. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You are going 

13 to let us know if you are not speaking on 

14 behalf of HI, correct? I am noticing, as I 

15 sit here and observe, that you have got well16 crafted responses there in front of you. So, 

17 let us know if you are not speaking on behalf 

18 of -- 

19 MR. HANDZEL: I will. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: -- HI. 

21 Gary? 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: We are interested 
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1 in circulator pumps. So, I just hope they are 

2 still on the table. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 John Cymbalsky? 

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

6 DOE. 

7 So, in your experience in working 

8 with the EU, is there a succinct answer for 

9 why the EU did not cover certain types? Is it 

10 just the market scope is small or it was too 

11 expensive to do anything with? If you have a 

12 short answer for that, that would be helpful. 

13 MR. HANDZEL: They focused on where 

14 they felt the largest possible was -- sorry, 

15 Mark Handzel, speaking for Xylem and Hydraulic 

16 Institute -- they focused on where the largest 

17 potential energy savings were. So, 

18 specifically double-suction pumps, for 

19 example, there is not a broad market in the EU 

20 for double-suction pumps. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert? 

22 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber speaking 
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1 on behalf of the Hydraulic Institute and 

2 Patterson Pump Company. 

3 Particularly double-suction pumps 

4 in the market in the U.S., 50 percent, or 

5 slightly more than that, are used for fire 

6 protection, which should not be considered by 

7 the Department of Energy for regulation. 

8 Therefore, the total amount of 

9 double-suction pumps used is fairly small 

10 unit-wise as compared to the ones that we have 

11 proposed. And that is why we do not recommend 

12 double-suction pumps at this time. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve 

14 Rosenstock? 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock, 

16 EEI. 

17 As a clarification, in the table 

18 where it says EU coverage is partial and the 

19 DOE coverage is -- would that be all 

20 categories, not just a partial EU? 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, 
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1 LBNL. 

2 Yes, in the categories where it 

3 says partial for the EU, it is currently 

4 noting that DOE is considering a wider 

5 selection of pumps than then the EU seems to 

6 be covering. 

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. Thank you 

8 for that clarification. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's go to the 

10 comment boxes and make sure that we have 

11 covered these. 

12 Yes, please, Ken. 

13 MR. NAPOLITANO: Just back on that 

14 last slide, I just want to make sure I 

15 understand. So, when you say -- because I 

16 read that as the EU covered greater than one 

17 stage of the vertical turbine submersible. 

18 Was that the question? And when you say 

19 "wider," that would include one stage? 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: That is correct, 

22 and, also, with regard to the radially split 
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1 multi-stage pumps, DOE is considering a wider 

2 variety of those than the vertical in-line 

3 type considered in the EU. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 MR. LLENZA: So, I just want to add 

6 again, this was the framework. So, everything 

7 is subject to change, hopefully -- hopefully, 

8 not much. Just provide us what you really 

9 think, and we would like supporting data for 

10 any changes in direction. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you can see the 

12 comment boxes listed there on the screen, 1-7, 

13 1-8, and 1-9. You all see quite well14 prepared. Let's make sure you get a chance to 

15 speak to those issues. 

16 Joanna Mauer? 

17 MS. MAUER: So, regarding the 

18 proposal to consider standards for pumps not 

19 covered in the EU, based on our kind of 

20 initial review, as I mentioned earlier, the 

21 one category that we think is at least worth 

22 considering for standards is the double-
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1 suction pumps. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

3 And, of course, the Department 

4 welcomes counterpoint as well, if there is 

5 such a thing. 

6 MR. LLENZA: So, let's move on to 

7 the next section. 

8 MR. HANDZEL: So, I have one more 

9 thing on 1-9, just to -- Mark Handzel speaking 

10 on behalf of Xylem and the Hydraulic 

11 Institute. 

12 On 1-9, the members of the 

13 Hydraulic Institute wish to clarify that there 

14 are areas with potential categories, but many 

15 are due to economic constraints. This 

16 approach is meant to generally align with the 

17 EU scope and it is designed to focus on off18 the-shelf pumps and to exempt pumps with low 

19 flow and fractional horsepowers that have 

20 little opportunity for efficiency improvement 

21 and energy savings. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 
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1 Are we finished with this section? 

2 John Cymbalsky? 

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes, I just want to 

4 make a point here, since some of us are new to 

5 this process. 

6 So, coverage does not necessarily 

7 mean that a standard would be set at a higher 

8 level than is already in the market. So, we 

9 could have coverage for a certain type of 

10 pump. Yet, at the same time, that doesn't 

11 necessarily mean our analysis will point to a 

12 standard that you guys already don't meet. 

13 Economic criteria is later in the analysis. 

14 So, coverage could be there, but not 

15 necessarily have a standard that you couldn't 

16 already meet, just to point that out. 

17 MR. LLENZA: Right. And to add to 

18 that -- this is Charles Llenza, the Department 

19 of Energy -- we could end up base lining what 

20 the industry has available. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Charles. 

22 Neal? 
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE. 

2 I think one of the important points 

3 -- and this has been mentioned by my 

4 colleagues from industry -- as I had indicated 

5 earlier, we are dealing with a very complex 

6 marketplace for a very complex product. 

7 To your point, John, I think 

8 initially focusing on the standards for 

9 products which represent the largest 

10 opportunity and the biggest consistency 

11 represents the target. Considering extending 

12 this standards, actually extending standards 

13 to additional products in subsequent 

14 rulemakings, we think makes a lot of sense. 

15 Let's get our feet wet. Let's get some 

16 standards under our belts before we attempt to 

17 expand the impacts potentially on the 

18 manufacturers from covering a wide range of 

19 products with standards which initially is a 

20 significant liability to the industry. So, I 

21 think moving with deliberateness is an 

22 appropriate approach. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

2 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano, 

3 Hydraulic Institute. 

4 On that point, and on the whole 

5 basic point of harmonizing with the EU and, 

6 additionally, why we favor that, beyond the 

7 fact that it is aligned with President Obama's 

8 recent executive action to attempt 

9 harmonization, where possible, if I could 

10 state it that way, the vast majority of 

11 Hydraulic Institute members and companies that 

12 would be subject to any DOE rulemaking are 

13 multinational and/or global players in the 

14 marketplace. 

15 So, to the extent to which we can 

16 keep as harmonized as possible with what is 

17 out there, so that, one, we can work on the 

18 same products in a concerted, coordinated way 

19 in terms of meeting the regulations. There is 

20 substantial cost to redesign. And then, also, 

21 be designing for the same targets or close to 

22 the same targets. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Any 

2 additional on this? We are going to, yes, 

3 move on. 

4 MR. LLENZA: Let's move on. Okay. 

5 So. 1-10. DOE seeks comments on pump types as 

6 described by ANSI/HI nomenclature that fall 

7 into equipment categories set forth in Table 

8 1.1, Slide 28. 

9 For example, type OH1 would be 

10 classified as end suction frame mounted pump. 

11 For ANSI/HI pump types that would not fall 

12 into the categories of Table 1.1, please 

13 provide specific reasons, such as solids14 handling-only or other descriptors of that 

15 sort. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Schmitz? 

17 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 

18 Steve Schmitz, Hydraulic Institute. 

19 Again, the pump type categories 

20 defined by HI as recommended for inclusion in 

21 this efficiency standard present the greatest 

22 opportunity for implementation. And there are 
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1 other subsegments specific to ANSI chemical2 type applications that can be well-defined 

3 that would be applicable here. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 MR. LLENZA: Okay, 1-11. DOE seeks 

6 comments on whether wet-running circulator7 type pumps should be covered under this 

8 rulemaking. It is pretty straightforward. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 

10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for the 

11 Hydraulic Institute. 

12 The Hydraulic Institute does not 

13 recommend that circulators be included in this 

14 rulemaking. I have a long definition of what 

15 a circulator pump is that I will provide you 

16 in our written comments. 

17 But the key thing that we want to 

18 point out is that this question specifically 

19 asked about wet-running circulator types. In 

20 the U.S. market, there are other types besides 

21 wet rotor pumps or wet-running. In 

22 particular, there are standard mechanical seal 
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1 pumps that are either close coupled directly 

2 to a motor -- we call those compact 

3 circulators -- and there are also mechanical 

4 seal pumps with a flexible coupled to a motor. 

5 We call those 3P circulators. 

6 So, there is a difference in the 

7 market. There are other products being sold 

8 here that are not wet-running as described in 

9 this question. 

10 So, just to give you some further 

11 explanation on HI's position, comparative to 

12 the European market, the U.S. market for 

13 circulators is very small. Thus, it is not a 

14 large opportunity to save energy. 

15 Secondly, the EU methodology being 

16 recommended, the MEI specifically, is not 

17 applicable to circulators because the pump and 

18 specialty motor are integral to each other. 

19 The third thing, the investment 

20 required by U.S. circulator manufacturers will 

21 be large to develop high-efficiency levels 

22 with very limited possibility for a solid 
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1 return on investment. 

2 And fourth, in most situations, due 

3 to the higher cost of the high-efficiency 

4 product and the relatively low cost of energy 

5 in the U.S., the return on investments to 

6 consumers would also be very extended. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary 

8 Fernstrom? 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: The California 

10 Investor Owned Utilities are disappointed that 

11 the Hydraulic Institute doesn't recommend 

12 including circulator pumps. The cost of 

13 energy in the United States is now low, 

14 particularly in California. These products 

15 typically have an annual energy use exceeding 

16 550 kilowatt hours. They have a total market 

17 energy use of 10,400 kilowatt hours and a 

18 sales volume of $1.9 million shipped annually. 

19 We will be providing additional 

20 information on the significance of this and 

21 highly recommend that circulator pumps be 

22 included because the manufacturers do have 
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1 efficient models available, and they represent 

2 a significant energy-saving opportunity for 

3 low cost. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Ken? 

6 MR. NAPOLITANO: I would just ask 

7 for clarification from Gary. Do your figures 

8 in terms of energy consumption, number of 

9 units, and so forth, include those installed 

10 in residential applications? 

11 MR. FERNSTROM: They include those 

12 installed in multi-family applications, which 

13 we consider to be commercial in accordance 

14 with utility tariffs. 

15 MR. NAPOLITANO: But exclude 

16 single-family homes? 

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Yes. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Neal, to further 

19 expand the record here, I was wondering, did 

20 you say before -- maybe I lost track -- what 

21 those of you who have been negotiating or 

22 meeting, what your posture is on circulator-
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1 type pumps? 

2 MR. ELLIOTT: I didn't make any 

3 comments about circulators. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you wish to do 

5 that now? 

6 MR. ELLIOTT: I do not. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ken? 

8 MR. NAPOLITANO: I would just make 

9 one more comment relative to the EU. As Mark 

10 stated, we can get more specific numbers. 

11 Because of the type or the propensity to use 

12 hot water for heating in Europe, which is the 

13 norm, and the exception in the United States, 

14 there are over 150 million small circulators 

15 installed in Europe in single- and two-family 

16 townhouse, that type of three-four flat-type 

17 properties. 

18 And so, it was a substantial number 

19 for the EU because hot water is how buildings, 

20 especially single-family homes, are heated in 

21 the EU. And so, that was the driver for them 

22 doing it. So, there is a much smaller 
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1 population in the U.S. And then, of course, 

2 it is our understanding that residential is 

3 not in the purview of this discussion. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

5 Yes, Mark? 

6 MR. HANDZEL: And just to further 

7 add to Ken's statements, not only are those 

8 homes in Europe heated with hot water, but 

9 they also use the same device to heat potable 

10 water, which means the circulators are 

11 typically running year-round. And that is not 

12 typically the most common application in the 

13 U.S. So, they would only operate partially 

14 for the year. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I got it. 

16 We are going to move on. 

17 MR. LLENZA: Yes, I just want to 

18 emphasize 1-12, and that is about market size. 

19 You should read the question and provide us 

20 with as much informationpossible for this 

21 one. 

22 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. So, Mark 
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1 Handzel, speaking for the Hydraulic Institute. 

2 The Hydraulic Institute does not 

3 have specific detail on the market size for 

4 wet-running circulators in the U.S. So, that 

5 is something that we will work to try to 

6 develop some more information to share that 

7 with the DOE. 

8 The additional question here where 

9 it asked, you know, how is the market split, 

10 this is kind of a consensus shell vote between 

11 the HI members who manufacture circulators, 

12 and we felt -- this is covering all types of 

13 circulators -- that roughly 70 percent are 

14 used in residential applications and 30 

15 percent go into commercial applications. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: You say that was a 

17 "shell vote"? 

18 MR. HANDZEL: Well, it was sitting 

19 around a room with a group of manufacturers in 

20 a committee meeting, and we threw out some 

21 numbers and generally agreed on 70/30 was the 

22 split. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And the Hydraulic 

2 Institute doesn't collect this data 

3 systematically at this point? 

4 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, we do not. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 

6 MR. FERNSTROM: I would like to ask 

7 for a clarification on the difference between 

8 residential and commercial. As I understand 

9 it, these pumps are manufactured and may go 

10 into either application. 

11 In general, where DOE has had 

12 commercial rulemakings and commercial products 

13 have coincidentally gone into residential 

14 applications, they are still being commercial 

15 products. It should not matter what the 

16 market share is. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? Neal, 

18 please. No? Yes, I am looking over here, 

19 this side of the room, if you wish to respond 

20 to that. I am going to Meg next after that. 

21 MR. HANDZEL: It sounded like a 

22 question to me to DOE, asking on regulating 
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1 residential products. Our point was they are 

2 predominantly a residential product. 

3 Circulators are predominantly a residential 

4 product. So, that is the point that we were 

5 making -- 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Got you. 

7 MR. HANDZEL: -- just because DOE 

8 specifically says that they can't regulate 

9 residential products. 

10 MS. KOHL: Just real quick as a 

11 point of clarification, so this is, again, the 

12 issue that John was talking about earlier as 

13 far as what would be considered a pump that is 

14 a type of covered equipment as set forth in 

15 EPCA and what we are looking at standards for 

16 in this rulemaking. I think that is kind of 

17 where the split is coming down. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy, thank you. 

19 Go ahead, Gary. 

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I am not sure 

21 I understood that response. 

22 MS. KOHL: So, this is Betsy Kohl 
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1 again. 

2 The pump is the covered type of 

3 equipment, right? But what we are looking at 

4 setting standards for in this framework 

5 document at this time is pumps for commercial 

6 applications. 

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, but my 

8 comment was these pumps are sold into 

9 commercial applications. 

10 MS. KOHL: We will need to take a 

11 look at that then. 

12 MR. LLENZA: I think it is a little 

13 bit more complicated-- it depends on how they 

14 come off the ‘‘assembly line.’’ There is a lot 

15 more that is involved. If it is installed on 

16 the same assembly line for the same pump, we 

17 don't care where you put it. It is going to 

18 be covered. 

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. That is an 

20 excellent response to my question. Thank you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Meg, please. 

22 MS. WALTNER: Yes, my question is a 
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1 follow-up question to Mark's, whether your 

2 residential included multi-family or was it 

3 just single-family residential? 

4 MR. HANDZEL: So, the best way that 

5 we would break it down is that multi-family 

6 has different classes. If you were in a two7 or-three-flat building, that would still fall 

8 in a residential class. But when you get into 

9 a multi-family high-rise building, that would 

10 be on the commercial side. 

11 MS. WALTNER: Okay. Thank you. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That was 

13 Mark. Thank you. 

14 Neal? 

15 MR. ELLIOTT: Related to sort of a 

16 different question -- and this is directed to 

17 the DOE -- is multi-family, how does the 

18 Department view multi-family, commercial, 

19 residential? And do you have a definition 

20 that you can direct us to? 

21 MR. LLENZA: Again, I just want to 

22 point out, this is part of what we are trying 
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1 to do here. Part of what we are asking 

2 industry is to help us define the scope of 

3 covered products. And so, there will be a 

4 section here on definitions. We will go over 

5 that. And the Department is open to input 

6 from the industry. 

7 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott. 

8 And I guess a clarification on that 

9 is, my question was, you know, has the 

10 Department in other rulemakings made a 

11 determination of multi-family, as to whether 

12 it is commercial or residential? And it was 

13 just a point of clarification, not with 

14 respect to this rulemaking, but more general. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: John Cymbalsky? 

16 MR. CYMBALSKY: So, I am not a 

17 lawyer, but I think I am going to get this 

18 right. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 So, the covered product is what 

21 determines. So, for furnaces, for example, 

22 the covered product is the furnace. Whether 
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1 it goes into an apartment in a multi-family 

2 building or a single-family house, it is still 

3 a furnace. 

4 Now, with pumps, we are here to 

5 define the scope of coverage. So, I think we 

6 are asking questions about this, and we are 

7 not going to go on the record to say one way 

8 or another at this point. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis? And 

10 then, to Tom. 

11 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with 

12 Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance. 

13 Might I suggest that you align what 

14 the definition of commercial and residential 

15 with the International Conservation Code or 

16 even some other, maybe 90.1, ASHRAE 90.1. But 

17 they clearly define what commercial is, and it 

18 is kind of this discussion you are having as 

19 to whether a multi-story flat or an apartment 

20 building is commercial or residential. And it 

21 makes a clear definition of what those are. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That is worth 
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1 considering. 

2 Tom Eckman? 

3 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I am not sure, 

4 but I suspect that there is a fair amount of 

5 imperfect information about where that pump 

6 ends up, once it is manufactured, if it is a 

7 circulator pump. And it certainly was the 

8 case when we had other appliances like air 

9 conditions that were single-phased air 

10 conditioners that ended up in commercial 

11 buildings, not three-phase air conditioners. 

12 And so, we, basically, did the 

13 analysis on the presumption that some fraction 

14 would end up in that usage level as opposed to 

15 a commercial building. And I think that is 

16 probably the likely outcome here, is that we 

17 won't know where most of those pumps go, but 

18 we will have some idea where the fraction 

19 might go. And they will have a duty cycle 

20 that is different because they are in an X 

21 application as opposed to a Y application. 

22 That is going to change the economics of where 
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1 you might set the standard. But it is a 

2 covered product, and the distributor and the 

3 manufacturer have no idea where it is going to 

4 end up when someone buys it for installation. 

5 So, we might know the market channel that it 

6 is going to go to, but that is about it. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 

8 MR. FERNSTROM: I would just like 

9 to make the point that we are having a 

10 discussion here whether these things are 

11 commercial or residential. This is the 

12 Department of Energy. And regardless of where 

13 they go, they have a large energy-saving 

14 opportunity for a low cost. And therefore, we 

15 ought to take advantage of that opportunity, 

16 not quibble over whether they are residential 

17 or commercial. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ken? 

19 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano 

20 from the Hydraulic Institute. 

21 I don't think our point is -- maybe 

22 we are misstating our point. Our issue is not 
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1 around commercial or residential. I was 

2 simply making a point that in Europe there is 

3 over 150 million in residential applications, 

4 and that is why the EU chose to regulate it. 

5 There are a lot of them. 

6 I think the salient point is, in 

7 fact, what you just said, which is there is a 

8 lot of energy savings at stake and a very low 

9 cost to achieve it. And I would say that we 

10 differ in that opinion. And so, it probably 

11 is useful to ultimately drive to the facts 

12 around that question. 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you. I would 

14 like -- Gary Fernstrom -- to point out that 

15 there is a significant market share, and data 

16 we will supply will show that. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

18 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza 

19 from the Department. 

20 I just want to add that, 

21 statutorily, pumps are not defined. So, it 

22 will be up to this process to define what is a 
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1 pump, commercial, industrial, whatever you 

2 want to call it, under this rulemaking. And 

3 as part of this process we will try to 

4 cast/cover the largest amount of pumpspossible 

5 based on the information provided during this 

6 rulemaking. 

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom. 

8 Thank you. That is great news. I 

9 have confidence in DOE. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's move on. 

11 MR. LLENZA: Okay. So, again, DOE 

12 is considering excluding self-priming pumps 

13 and pumps designed for firefighting 

14 applications. This has been mentioned before. 

15 So, we Request for Comments on this issue, 

16 1-15. DOE requests comments on the technical 

17 features and applications for firefighting 

18 pumps, self-priming pumps, that would allow it 

19 to determine whether these pumps should be 

20 covered or not covered. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: We have touched on 

22 this, but I don't think we got into the 
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1 details yet. 

2 Steve Schmitz? 

3 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 

4 Steve Schmitz, Hydraulic Institute. 

5 I have a longer statement that I 

6 will submit later. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

8 MR. SCHMITZ: But I will give you a 

9 few brief words here. 

10 Technical features for fire pumps 

11 are typically not conducive to do optimal pump 

12 efficiency. However, because of minimal 

13 operating times for pumps in this category, 

14 they offer minimal potential energy savings by 

15 requiring optimal design efficiency. And 

16 there is, therefore, no compelling case for 

17 change. 

18 To the contrary, requiring 

19 efficiency optimized fire pumps would actually 

20 increase the pump horsepower required, 

21 increasing the size of the motor, controller, 

22 and the wiring. This results in increased 
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1 costs and power consumption, and increases the 

2 energy consumption for this category. This 

3 defeats the intent of the DOE energy-savings 

4 initiative. 

5 Finally, a requirement for fire 

6 pumps to be optimized for efficiency is 

7 projected to have a significant negative 

8 impact due to the approval testing and 

9 approval process cost of approximately 

10 $100,000 per pump model, exclusive of the 

11 design development cost, in order to replace 

12 existing models. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

14 Additional comments, the specifics 

15 related to firefighting pumps? Yes, Steve 

16 Rosenstock. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

18 EEI. 

19 Again, in my mind, it is a 

20 clarification. Are we talking about high-rise 

21 buildings that have fire pumps that are 

22 specifically for the fire prevention systems? 
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1 Are we talking about the pumps that are on the 

2 back of a fire truck that are connected to a 

3 fire hydrant to fight a fire? Or both? 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert? 

5 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic 

6 Institute. 

7 We are talking about pumps in 

8 buildings, not fire trucks. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Steven 

10 Rosenstock, EEI. 

11 Thank you, and I would just like to 

12 note for the record that, under Federal 

13 Regulation Notice that was put out, I think it 

14 was last year or the year before, that for the 

15 fire pump motors there are now minimum energy16 efficiency requirements for fire pump motors 

17 that have been published and are now in the 

18 Code of Federal Regulations. 

19 Thank you. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer? 

21 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. 

22 We agreed that it makes sense to 
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1 exclude fire pumps. I think it is just a 

2 question of how do we define them, so that 

3 they are not used in other clean water 

4 applications. I think a similar issue has 

5 come up in the motors docket, and it is just a 

6 question of, you know, is there a 

7 certification or something that we can use 

8 just to make sure that they are used for that 

9 purpose only? 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

11 Albert? 

12 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic 

13 Institute. 

14 Fire pumps are specifically 

15 designed for fire protection. They do not 

16 operate at its best efficiency point. They 

17 are not designed to operate there. They are 

18 actually designed to operate to the left-hand 

19 side of the best efficiency point because they 

20 are required by Code to be able to pump at 150 

21 percent, and they are required to lift water 

22 at 15 feet at 150 percent. They also have 
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1 requirements that the shutoff head has to be 

2 maintained at a certain point. 

3 Technically, it is used for -- it 

4 could be used for clean water, but it is not 

5 normally used because it is expensive. It 

6 can't have seals in it. It has to have 

7 packing. That is done because the fire 

8 protection people don't want to a failure 

9 during a fire. So, they let the water leak, 

10 which, if you let the water leak, you are 

11 losing water, and therefore, it is not 

12 efficient. 

13 So, they are not designed for that, 

14 never were intended to be used for that. They 

15 are intended to be used for fire protection 

16 only. They are regulated by the National Fire 

17 Protection Association, and they are certified 

18 as meeting that NFPA 20 certification by the 

19 Underwriters Laboratory and Factory Mutual. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 MR. HUBER: And so, they carry a 

22 stamp to that effect. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Schmitz? 

2 MR. SCHMITZ: Al actually just made 

3 my point. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. So, just to 

6 be clear, there is a different certification 

7 process for these pumps. 

8 Okay. Thank you. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Neal? 

10 MR. ELLIOTT: Just to go back to 

11 the motor rule, I would note that the 

12 inclusion of fire pump motors within the motor 

13 rule was a specific category that was set out, 

14 had a lower efficiency than other products, 

15 and it was explicitly included because of the 

16 unique nature of those motors and the 

17 requirement that those motors receive UL and 

18 Fire Certification. 

19 So, again, it is a special product, 

20 and it should be treated specially. And just 

21 to reiterate what Joanna said, we do not think 

22 it should be covered in this rulemaking. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. The question 

2 is whether we take a break now. I think 

3 probably we are about due. We have got a 

4 little bit more to cover here, right? 

5 MR. LLENZA: Yes. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's do take 

7 a break now. It is 10:45. We typically break 

8 for 15 minutes. 

9 For those of you who are new to the 

10 building, or those of you who are not new, you 

11 must wear your visitor's badge visible above 

12 your waist. They are very serious about 

13 security around here. 

14 There are restrooms at both ends of 

15 the hall. There is a coffee shop on the 

16 ground floor. If you take the elevators, 

17 there is a coffee shop on the ground floor 

18 just about directly beneath us; off the 

19 elevator and hang a left. 

20 Please go quickly. Sometimes they 

21 are not very efficient at Dunkin' Donuts. 

22 (Laughter.) 
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1 And we will resume at 11:00. 

2 So, thanks. Hey, listen, we have 

3 got a really good start on the day. The 

4 quality of the comments has been excellent. 

5 Let's keep that going. 

6 Thank you. 

7 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

8 went off the record at 10:45 a.m. and went 

9 back on the record at 11:05 a.m.) 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And once 

11 again, the quality of the comment has been 

12 excellent, and I am very eager for that 

13 continue. And so, we are going to proceed 

14 where we left off, and Alison is going to be 

15 at the podium. 

16 Alison? 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 

18 So, the last slide, we were just 

19 talking about possible exclusions for 

20 firefighting and self-priming pumps. Anyhow, 

21 there are coverage parameters that DOE is 

22 considering. DOE is interested in specific 
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1 reasons for why they should be in place. 

2 And here, we are just acknowledging 

3 the parameters that the stakeholders have 

4 suggested in some of the meetings with DOE. 

5 So, those are listed here related to flow 

6 head, horsepower, and temperature. And the 

7 stakeholders say they have presented these to 

8 generally align with the EU scope, although I 

9 want to note that they are not exactly the 

10 same. 

11 So, we did a little bit of estimate 

12 on how many pumps these would exclude. And 

13 so, those numbers are shown on the bottom 

14 here. We think it is about 48 percent of 

15 pumps by model availability and about two16 thirds by shipment. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Steve 

18 first. 

19 MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz, 

20 Hydraulic Institute. 

21 If we could go back one slide, 

22 please, Alison? Thank you. 
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1 There is a typographical error on 

2 this slide. The second point of 295 feet 

3 should say 459 feet. The 295 feet represents 

4 the max head from the EU standard for four5 pole operation, and at two-pole it is 459 

6 feet. 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 

8 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer. 

9 I just want to clarify, that is a 

10 clarification from what was presented earlier. 

11 So, I think that is why there is some 

12 confusion. I think right now we are 

13 suggesting 459. There may have been something 

14 previously -- 

15 MR. SCHMITZ: Right, which aligns 

16 with the EU standard, yes. 

17 MS. MAUER: And the EU standard has 

18 separate maximum head for two-pole and four19 pole motors. I think what we are suggesting 

20 now is a single maximum head regardless of 

21 speed. Is that right, Steve? 

22 MR. SCHMITZ: That is what you are 
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1 suggesting or we -- 

2 MS. MAUER: That is what I thought 

3 we were -- 

4 MR. SCHMITZ: We are saying the 

5 hydraulic picket fence, if we call it that, 

6 the max head that would be involved, no matter 

7 what the speed, would be 459 feet. 

8 MS. MAUER: Yes. And I am just 

9 clarifying that that is different than what we 

10 may have presented previously to DOE and a 

11 little bit different than the EU. 

12 MR. SCHMITZ: It aligns with EU, 

13 yes. 

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to clarify, 

15 this is the only information I have seen 

16 before. And so, we certainly don't have any 

17 numbers involving the 495 that you -- 459, 

18 sorry. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So, just to confirm, 

20 Steve, make the point again about 459. 

21 MR. SCHMITZ: Four hundred fifty22 nine is the max head, as defined by the EU 
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1 standard. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Got 

3 it. 

4 MS. WALTNER: Sorry. Just a 

5 clarification on -- 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Meg, please. 

7 MS. WALTNER: And so, in the EU 

8 standard is it max head regardless of speed as 

9 well? Or I think that is part of the 

10 confusion. 

11 MR. SCHMITZ: It was max head at 

12 two-pole speed. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

14 MR. NAPOLITANO: Maybe I could just 

15 get a little -- two-pole, four-pole, right? 

16 Two-pole run twice as fast as four-pole 

17 motors. So, it is kind of inconsequential 

18 once you say 495 feet because you are not 

19 going to get there with running at half-speed. 

20 You won't be able to generate that much. 

21 So, I think the EU had some 

22 subcategories that said, if it was four-pole, 
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1 you could get up to here, and if it was two2 pole, you could get up to here. But, once you 

3 define the max, it becomes inconsequential. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Got it. 

5 Okay. Have we clarified that one? I think we 

6 did. 

7 So, Steve Rosenstock, go ahead. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just quickly, when 

9 you say "stakeholders," are you saying both 

10 the Hydraulic Institute and the energy 

11 efficiency advocates? Is this a joint -- 

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, this is 

13 made in one of the ex parte meetings with DOE 

14 and, also, in the technical meeting between 

15 HI, the stakeholders, and the technical 

16 consultant. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And then, 

18 just a quick followup. With the parameter of 

19 greater -- so, it is greater than and equal to 

20 1 horsepower and, then, less than or equal to 

21 200 horsepower, correct? 

22 MS. WILLIAMS: That is my 
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1 understanding. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Because, 

3 just as a quick thought there, by having a 1-

4 horsepower minimum, doesn't that exclude a lot 

5 of circulator pumps? 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That is an 

7 interesting question. 

8 Okay. Gary Fernstrom? 

9 MR. FERNSTROM: Seemingly, it 

10 would. So, as we consider wanting to include 

11 circulator pumps, we should make sure that the 

12 horsepower minimum coincides with however we 

13 come out on that. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

15 I am eager for us to keep going. 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, well, no, we are 

18 not done yet. Steve? And perhaps Albert. 

19 Steve Schmitz? 

20 MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz, 

21 Hydraulic Institute. 

22 Sorry. Thank you. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: No, no, we want 

2 this. This is good. Keep going. 

3 MR. SCHMITZ: The Hydraulic 

4 Institute would appreciate better 

5 understanding how the numbers in the graph 

6 here, in the chart here, were reached, how 

7 they were calculated and how you got to that. 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, quickly, 

9 as was demonstrated in the framework, we 

10 pulled about 115 manufacturer catalogs from 

11 the PUMP-FLO desktop software and pulled in 

12 pump models out of those. And then, we had to 

13 do some individual work with these. We 

14 excluded 50-hertz pumps, excluded wastewater 

15 pumps, went to the manufacturers' websites and 

16 tried to identify pump categories. 

17 And so, we actually have head flow, 

18 horsepower, and temperature from the pump flow 

19 information that we used for the model 

20 availability estimates. And the shipment 

21 estimates were done by a market research 

22 consultant, based on 2010 Census data. So, 
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1 these are all strictly estimates, and, you 

2 know, they might change if we receive 

3 additional information on them. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert first. 

5 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic 

6 Institute. 

7 Alison, since this parameter has 

8 now changed to 459 feet of head, would it 

9 change this chart? 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, it would change 

11 this chart probably significantly. As it 

12 states in the framework document, a lot of 

13 pump models were excluded here because of 

14 head, especially the multi-stage pumps, which 

15 naturally have higher head. 

16 So, I would suspect, yes, these 

17 numbers would change. And we do have some 

18 discussion in the framework document about how 

19 that head effect would work. As will go 

20 farther with the EU, if you are only testing 

21 on certain stages, the head limit might have 

22 some different impacts than it would if you 
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1 are actually looking at all stage versions. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 

3 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for the 

4 Hydraulic Institute. 

5 Alison, did you guys account for 

6 pump manufacturers that aren't in PUMP-FLO? 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: No, we have not done 

8 that. So, this is just an estimate about 50 

9 percent of the market that we have. So, this, 

10 again, would change with any additional 

11 information we receive. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

13 MR. NAPOLITANO: And ultimately, of 

14 course, we can hone these numbers. But, even 

15 at the 295 (sic) feet, if I looked at the 

16 first two categories, end suction close 

17 coupled and end suction frame mounted, which 

18 are the largest-volume pumps, I believe, or at 

19 least from an energy consumption standpoint, 

20 in the mix. 

21 Just inside those parameters, the 

22 number of 43 and 41 percent just don't seem to 
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1 make sense. You know, it would seem like it 

2 would be more like 80 percent. So, you have 

3 got to refine those? 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Yes, I mean, 

5 we are certainly open to refining these 

6 estimates. They were basically done just to 

7 give a quick understanding of what these 

8 parameters might do in terms of the market. 

9 Yes, again, we only have part of the market. 

10 It is also not necessarily all 

11 clean water pumps in here because we did have 

12 to do the filtering on that, you know, kind of 

13 manually looking at all catalogs. So, it is 

14 possible there are other pump types in here 

15 that are kind of skewing. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: So, individuals who 

17 attend these meetings on a consistent basis, 

18 it is a constant refrain that the Department 

19 of Energy is asking for data. And so, the 

20 question is, does the Hydraulic Institute, do 

21 you gather this kind of data right now? Ken? 

22 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, we could 
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1 assist in this particular discussion around 

2 this model availability in terms of what 

3 percentage of the products fit in the 

4 parameters of the scope. We would be able to 

5 assist with hard data on that. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be very 

7 helpful and the Department would really 

8 appreciate that, and the earlier, the better. 

9 These two gentlemen, I didn't get 

10 your names earlier. 

11 MR. CASE: Greg Case with Pump 

12 Design, Development & Diagnostics. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And? 

14 MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka from 

15 Smith & Loveless. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

17 MR. MRKVICKA: And we are both 

18 members of the Hydraulic Institute. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Greg, you are 

20 next in the queue. 

21 MR. CASE: Alison, my question was, 

22 does this also include the ANSI pump models in 
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1 this? 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: It does. 

3 MR. CASE: Okay. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the framework 

5 also states that the temperature exclusions 

6 would be lower if we took out the ANSI 

7 chemical process pump. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes? Okay, 

9 Alison. 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, this was 

11 basically just requesting comment on this. 

12 Again, DOE is not necessarily considering the 

13 parameters proposed. So, we would like more 

14 information on those parameters that were 

15 proposed, either that were up there or any 

16 others that people would like to suggest. And 

17 DOE especially seeks comment on -- sorry -- 

18 the estimates of pumps. We would like more 

19 data on pumps that could be excluded from 

20 this. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And the Hydraulic 

22 Institute will supply some of that, right? 
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Likely. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Other sources that 

3 come to mind before we move on? 

4 (No response.) 

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So, next we are 

6 going to talk about the definitions that DOE 

7 is considering for pumps. And so, currently, 

8 these definitions are based on the equipment 

9 categories that you saw earlier that DOE is 

10 considering for coverage. 

11 Most of them have been developed 

12 after reviewing the definitions in the EU 

13 clean water pump regulation. And we have also 

14 developed some additional definitions based on 

15 other categories that the EU did not consider. 

16 So, again, these may change. Right 

17 now, they don't have any parameters in them, 

18 as the EU does, because those are not being 

19 considered at the moment. So, eventually, the 

20 specific parameters, like head and flow, if 

21 there are any, could be added to these. 

22 So, I am not going to read all of 
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1 these individually. We will just look at them 

2 and have some comments at the end. 

3 So, again, we are starting with 

4 pump, rotodynamic water pump, and then, after 

5 that, it starts with the individual categories 

6 that we looked at earlier. So, these are just 

7 the categories that we saw. 

8 So, DOE would like comment on any 

9 of the suggested definitions for pumps, 

10 whether they are sufficient to allow 

11 determination of what is covered and in what 

12 category your equipment might fit, and just a 

13 rather specific note on what could be used to 

14 define the axial/propeller mixed flow pumps in 

15 terms of specific speed or other parameters. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's start 

17 with the definitions on slide 32. That is 

18 where we are right now. Mark? 

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, 

20 speaking for the Hydraulic Institute. 

21 The Hydraulic Institute has 

22 clearly-defined HI/ANSI definitions of pumps 
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1 that are considered standards in the industry 

2 by the pump manufacturers and their 

3 constituents. We do not feel that the DOE 

4 should initiate the use of another set of 

5 definitions for this rulemaking, primarily 

6 because we have these standards. They have 

7 been in the industry for a long time, and we 

8 feel that they are the way that products 

9 should be defined. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

11 Joanna? 

12 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. 

13 So, we recognize the benefits of 

14 ANSI/HI definitions in the marketplace and for 

15 the industry, but we are concerned that in a 

16 regulatory environment that the ANSI/HI 

17 definitions could present some potential 

18 loopholes and, in particular, because the 

19 ANSI/HI definitions are very specific. You 

20 know, we see the possibility for making very 

21 minor alterations to a pump, such that it no 

22 longer meets that ANSI/HI definition. 
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1 And so, our current thinking is 

2 that it would be better to define pump 

3 categories more broadly and, then, to define 

4 any necessary exclusions to reach the scope of 

5 coverage that we would like. We may have some 

6 suggested tweaks to the DOE definitions, but 

7 we think they are a good starting point. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

9 Additional thoughts? We are going 

10 to keep -- so, the Hydraulic Institute does 

11 not wish to comment specifically on these 

12 definitions? 

13 MR. HANDZEL: We didn't develop -- 

14 Mark Handzel for the Hydraulic Institute -- we 

15 didn't develop specific responses, just 

16 because we feel that it is going the wrong 

17 direction. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Then, 

19 let's look at, scan through 32, 33, and 34. 

20 And as would be reflected in the comment box 

21 on 35, let's see if anybody wishes to make 

22 specific additions, corrections, 
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1 amplifications to these definitions. 

2 (No response.) 

3 And, of course, definitions are a 

4 complicated bit of business. So, written 

5 comments might be the best avenue here. 

6 Okay. Then, I am seeing none as I 

7 scan the room. So, we are going to move on. 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, these 

9 definitions are related to the definition of 

10 clean water, which we touched on earlier, and 

11 the framework document we presented that used 

12 the EU definition for clean water. And we are 

13 seeking comment on how best to translate the 

14 wording and units of that to the U.S. The 

15 definition seems a little vague. So, any 

16 comments to help improve that definition, as 

17 well as whether any other parameters, such as 

18 maximum solids diameter, could be added to 

19 that. 

20 And again, as we discussed before, 

21 we could alternatively do some different 

22 definitions, such as defining physical 
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1 characteristics of the pumps themselves as 

2 opposed to the water. So, these are just 

3 things out for comment. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

6 EEI. 

7 I didn't look in that section of 

8 the framework document, so please forgive me. 

9 But I am just kind of curious if you had a 

10 chance to look at the EU definition compared 

11 to any EPA definitions and if they are aligned 

12 at all. 

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I have not looked at 

14 that. I am not sure if -- it is something we 

15 can certainly note down. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

17 Steve Schmitz? 

18 MR. SCHMITZ: Steve Schmitz, 

19 Hydraulic Institute. 

20 We are just going to reiterate the 

21 prior comment about the use and definition of 

22 the ISO 9906 standard for definition of clean 
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1 water. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Excellent. Okay. 

3 Thank you. 

4 Yes, Mark? 

5 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for 

6 Hydraulic Institute. 

7 Regarding 127, the question really 

8 has to do with whether the use of the words 

9 "solid diameter" should be used in a 

10 definition of clean water. So, the members of 

11 the Hydraulic Institute wish to clarify that 

12 consideration for solids diameter is not used 

13 in any definition of clean water pumping. No 

14 solids are allowed. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, okay. Thank 

16 you. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, we are 

18 going to switch to another section. Until 

19 now, we have been focusing basically on the 

20 pump itself, and DOE has also been considering 

21 a more expansive version of pump. So, the EU 

22 has started an exploration of the pump 
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1 inclusive of motor and controls, and 

2 stakeholders in this room have also suggested 

3 following such an approach. The primary 

4 reason for this approach is to capture the 

5 benefits of variable speed drives, primarily 

6 in variable-load applications with low static 

7 head. 

8 However, DOE realizes that 

9 manufacturers can't control how a pump or a 

10 VSD is used. In some cases, the same pump 

11 will be used in both constant and variable12 load applications. So, any analysis that will 

13 be done will look at all the applications out 

14 there, including the baseline conditions, 

15 whether they are currently throttled, constant 

16 load, whatever, to determine whether or not 

17 the VSDs would save energy in the field. 

18 So, just kind of a background 

19 review, and we are looking at pumps a little 

20 more broadly. DOE believes that most pump 

21 types are generally sold without motors. 

22 However, some of the most common pump types, 
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1 including end suction close coupled, most of 

2 the time are shipped with a motor by the 

3 manufacturer. 

4 DOE believes that a number of pumps 

5 sold with motors and VSDs by the pump 

6 manufacturer is much smaller, at approximately 

7 2 percent, although there may be some 

8 application categories, such as circulators or 

9 water pressure booster pumps, where there is 

10 more of those sold in a package. 

11 So, DOE is interested in data on 

12 how pumps are sold, including whether they are 

13 sold alone, with a motor, with a motor and 

14 VSD, and whether they are actually integrated 

15 or they are just kind of priced together and 

16 shipped, you know, maybe separate boxes, the 

17 same box, whatever; basically, interested in 

18 data on this by equipment category, size, 

19 application, whatever is available. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I am looking 

21 over there to Ken or someone first because 

22 this is back to that constant refrain: DOE 
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1 looking for data. And I was wondering if the 

2 Hydraulic Institute has that information, can 

3 supply that information. Or, Neal, do you 

4 wish to comment here? 

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE. 

6 I wanted to get on the record 

7 indicating that, as we have suggested to the 

8 Department several times, it is probably 

9 timely to do an update on motor and motor10 driven equipment, energy use in the United 

11 States. The most recent comprehensive study 

12 was the 1999 study, the so-called "Xenergy 

13 Motor Market Study". We think it would be 

14 very useful -- and I am speaking on behalf, I 

15 think, of the motor industry and the motor16 driven equipment industry as well as many in 

17 the energy-efficiency, that a comprehensive 

18 study would benefit substantially in moving 

19 forward with these issues. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, I lost track of 

21 that. Are you suggesting the Department of 

22 Energy does that or does that in cooperation 
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1 with the stakeholders? 

2 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, the Department 

3 did a study, EERE. There is actually pending 

4 legislation before the Congress which would 

5 actually direct the Department to undertake 

6 such a study. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. 

8 MR. ELLIOTT: Understand the cost 

9 is an issue here. We think this is a 

10 priority, though, in addressing many of these 

11 issues because we revisit them -- 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, yes. 

13 MR. ELLIOTT: -- every time we do 

14 one of these rulemakings. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce, follow-on? 

16 MR. LUNG: Bruce Lung, Alliance to 

17 Save Energy. 

18 I would echo that request by Dr. 

19 Elliott. 

20 I would also like to point out, and 

21 perhaps ask the technical advisors, there is 

22 actually a rich portfolio of information 
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1 related to energy efficiency in industrial2 scale pumping systems that was produced by 

3 EERE's Advanced Manufacturing Office, 

4 including case studies, fact sheets, and 

5 source books. And if those resources have not 

6 been used, I would invite them to use them to 

7 inform particularly this discussion around 

8 variable-speed control of industrial pumping 

9 systems. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

11 Rodney, thank you for being 

12 patient. 

13 MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka of 

14 Smith & Loveless, and representing the 

15 Hydraulic Institute. 

16 With respect to your Items 1-16 and 

17 1-17, the Hydraulic Institute does not have 

18 any of that data available to provide in those 

19 categories, and we believe acquiring that 

20 would be a pretty extensive market survey 

21 because of the wide range of categories you 

22 have. 
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1 That being said, through our 

2 members that we have, we have an opinion on 

3 both those. And our opinion is that the pump 

4 with the motor combination would be the 

5 substantially largest market segment. 

6 Alison, on your slide 39, which was 

7 just above your first bullet point, it stated 

8 that most pump types are generally sold 

9 without motors. So, the Hydraulic Institute 

10 would like to request some additional 

11 information or background of that data, as it 

12 differs from our opinion, from that table. 

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean, just to 

14 clarify, these are estimates by a pumps market 

15 research consultant, and we are certainly 

16 welcome to any information that is different 

17 from this. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney, from your 

19 comment, I couldn't understand. Do you have 

20 the capacity to gather this data? 

21 MR. MRKVICKA: Not at this moment, 

22 no. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Alex 

2 Boesenberg? 

3 MR. BOESENBERG: Since I won't be 

4 here after lunch, I beg the indulgence to 

5 comment on Item 12-2, in followup to Neal 

6 Elliott's statement. 

7 When addressing cumulative 

8 regulatory burden, it is often what other 

9 things are going on that will affect the 

10 industry. I would submit that the issue of 

11 the motor study is one where the DOE is under 

12 a cumulative burden, where several rulemakings 

13 could be positively influenced by that study; 

14 ergo, better data. So, again, NEMA will echo 

15 Neal's statement to please find a way to fold 

16 that study in somehow. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

18 Yes, Tom Eckman. 

19 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest 

20 Power and Conservation Council. 

21 This is mostly for the 

22 manufacturers in the room. It seems to me 
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1 that, given this standard isn't scheduled to 

2 take effect until 2019 or thereabouts, it 

3 would be interesting to know what you think 

4 the trendline looks like with respect to the 

5 sales of these units with the motor set 

6 connected to them compared to just the pump 

7 alone, and whether or not there is a trend 

8 that is moving that direction or away from it. 

9 Since, if we are thinking about a 

10 regulatory regime that might include the whole 

11 drive and motor set, knowing that that is more 

12 likely to be the case in the future than less 

13 likely to be the case in the future would be 

14 of interest in setting up which policy option 

15 you want to pursue here. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

17 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano, 

18 the Hydraulic Institute. 

19 I think a couple of things. Just 

20 first to kind of expound on Rodney's point, 

21 while it is true that the Hydraulic Institute 

22 does not have this exact data definitively as 
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1 specifically how many pumps are sold with 

2 motors, first, I want to point out that we are 

3 generally eager to share as much data as 

4 possible with everyone, so that we can get to 

5 the right answer. 

6 Secondly, we certainly can work 

7 towards, albeit maybe not precise, but working 

8 towards polling of the manufacturers to at 

9 least get some aggregated look of an estimate 

10 toward those data. 

11 To answer your question, first of 

12 all, we believe just notionally that the 

13 number of pumps sold with motors is higher 

14 than what was displayed there. 

15 Secondly, generally, the trend, 

16 although I wouldn't attempt to quantify the 

17 rate, is for that to increase and for the 

18 integration of speed control, whether it be a 

19 variable-speed drive or other type device, to 

20 increase as well. Certainly, it depends a lot 

21 on which pump type and category and size 

22 horsepower you are talking about. But I would 
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1 say that the general direction is for more 

2 integration rather than less. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

4 John Cymbalsky? 

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

6 DOE. 

7 I just want to point out that, for 

8 the manufacturers, you can enter into some 

9 agreement with our consultants to sign a 

10 confidentiality agreement, where the 

11 information that you provide to them would not 

12 be divulged to the federal government -- 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Or anyone. 

14 MR. CYMBALSKY: -- if that makes 

15 you feel more comfortable moving this process 

16 along. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

18 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, it is Ken 

19 Napolitano. 

20 I think, for certain types of data, 

21 that would be something that would probably be 

22 required, and therefore, discussed. Other 
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1 types of data we are ready to put in the 

2 public record. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: There will be more 

4 said later in the day about how that gets 

5 done. 

6 Okay. Keep going, Alison. 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just a few more 

8 questions on the system. DOE requests 

9 information on how often and what 

10 circumstances the intended application of the 

11 pump is known when it is sold, and is also 

12 interested in further comment on including 

13 feedback in any definition for pumps that 

14 includes motors and controls. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Rodney? 

16 MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka, 

17 Smith & Loveless, representing the Hydraulic 

18 Institute. 

19 To your Item 1-18, again, we don't 

20 have hard data to provide, but our opinion, a 

21 substantial majority of the time the 

22 manufacturer knows what the application of the 
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1 pump is for, not all the times, but a majority 

2 of the time. The end-user is the person who 

3 knows where it is all the time. 

4 So, again, in feeding off of what 

5 Ken mentioned earlier, as we start to package 

6 these and the trend is going up, incorporating 

7 an extended product approach on this would 

8 help the end-user supply this pump in a better 

9 situation to be more energy efficient. And in 

10 doing this, you remove the fragmentation that 

11 you mentioned on the earlier slide about how 

12 pumps are supplied, where various people have 

13 the different points. Bringing this all 

14 together will help optimize the pump 

15 operation. 

16 And if I may, on 1-19, it is very 

17 simple. The Hydraulic Institute agrees that 

18 feedback control is necessary to effectively 

19 operate these units. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 Steve Rosenstock? 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 
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1 EEI. 

2 Just, again, in terms of variable3 speed drives, they are a great technology for 

4 saving energy, but I guess my thought is any 

5 sort of regulation -- the only similarity, in 

6 terms of other products, the only similar type 

7 of efficiency requirement, I will say, is with 

8 residential boilers have to have the automatic 

9 temperature resets. That is a requirement 

10 under federal law. Not only there is an AFUE 

11 for them, but there is also they have to have 

12 the temperature reset to modulate the usage to 

13 save more energy. 

14 I guess I am a little concerned 

15 that variable-speed drives are a control 

16 technology. They are using energy themselves, 

17 but, really, they are saving energy for the 

18 other product, the motor, which is a pump 

19 motor. That is what they are doing. 

20 I guess I am a little worried 

21 about, as we go down this road, are we going 

22 to try to also, are we also looking at certain 
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1 specifications for the variable-speed drive 

2 that might go on the motor that is attached to 

3 the pump? Again, it is a matter of where is 

4 this going in terms of, does the variable5 speed drive have specific design requirements 

6 itself before it would be considered to comply 

7 with any sort of regulation? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles? Betsy? 

9 Betsy? 

10 MS. KOHL: Just real quick, so when 

11 we set efficiency standards, it is we don't 

12 set design requirements for specific pieces. 

13 We might look at more efficient VSDs in 

14 setting the standard, but how you get to the 

15 ultimate standard level is up to you. We 

16 don't set specific design requirements for a 

17 VSD. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Don Brundage? 

19 MR. BRUNDAGE: Don Brundage, 

20 Southern Company. 

21 In the context of a manufacturer's 

22 standard, I am not necessarily opposed to 
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1 this. I am not sure how well it would work. 

2 I have some misgivings about trying to require 

3 variable-speed/drive speed package into pumps 

4 because, for one thing, if it is a pump that 

5 is designed by its operation to only operate 

6 at one speed when something else is operating, 

7 adding a variable-speed drive in that 

8 situation is going to increase energy use 

9 because of the energy use of the variable10 speed drive itself. 

11 So, I realize we are early in the 

12 process, but I am not sure how this could 

13 really be done in the context of -- 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 

15 MR. BRUNDAGE: -- this rulemaking. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: We just want to 

17 gather any useful information at the stage we 

18 are in now. 

19 Gary? And then, we are going to 

20 keep moving on. 

21 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, excuse 

22 me. Going to Don's point first, oftentimes, 
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1 engineers oversize this equipment. So, 

2 whether it is a fixed application or not, many 

3 times there are opportunities for a variable4 speed drive to better match the pump to the 

5 desired operating condition. And you save 

6 energy that way, even though it is a fixed7 speed application. 

8 And going to Steve's point, I think 

9 whatever measurement and test algorithm we 

10 come up with, it needs to include the energy 

11 use of the variable-speed drive itself, which 

12 may include a standby energy use, in order to 

13 properly capture the energy use of the 

14 integrated piece of equipment that is being 

15 represented as an extended product, 

16 category/product. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ken? 

18 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano of 

19 the Hydraulic Institute. 

20 Of course, we proposed the use of 

21 what we refer to as extended product. And I 

22 would like to make just a couple of comments 
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1 about extended product because this is a very 

2 important part of the discussion when you 

3 consider the amount of energy savings 

4 potential from this approach as compared to 

5 looking at just the pump component efficiency. 

6 The extended product approach is a 

7 methodology to calculate the Energy Efficiency 

8 Index of an extended product, incorporating 

9 load profiles. And it consists of a physical 

10 product. It doesn't just need to be a 

11 variable-speed drive, but it is a pump and a 

12 motor and some control feedback or a pump, 

13 motor, speed control, and a feedback loop. 

14 So, yes, you need a feedback mechanism to, 

15 then, adjust the pump to the demand. 

16 And we have identified two 

17 categories. One is pump with a variable-speed 

18 drive for load profiles and applications that 

19 are conducive to that, but there is also 

20 constant-speed operation, where you don't have 

21 a highly-variable load profile, and it could 

22 be as simple as an on/off control. Because, 
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1 believe it or not, there are a lot of pumps 

2 that run out there and they just run and run 

3 and run, whether there is a demand or load or 

4 not. And simply by having a feedback loop 

5 that turns them off, it could have a 

6 substantial energy savings. 

7 And so, by defining the extended 

8 product in those two potential categories, 

9 that approach can be used on virtually any 

10 application. 

11 And then, lastly, we did an 

12 estimate, which we submitted a long time ago, 

13 that conservatively estimated the energy saved 

14 by incorporating the extended product approach 

15 in the scheme would represent 11.6-terawatt 

16 hours per year of energy savings potential. 

17 So, far and away, the largest piece. 

18 So, it is more complex than just 

19 the pump efficiency. I think we are 

20 benefitting from the fact that we are behind 

21 the EU because the EU plowed a lot of ground, 

22 and they went first with Minimum Efficiency 
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1 Index on the pump itself because it is simpler 

2 to get at, but they are now writing 

3 regulations around the extended product 

4 approach. So, there is a methodology to get 

5 at that. 

6 Thank you. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest? 

8 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant 

9 Consulting. 

10 Just sort of following up on 

11 Steve's comment about how one might 

12 incorporate standards that take into account 

13 variable-speed drives, and you mentioned the 

14 prescriptive standard for boilers, the idea 

15 here in this product would not be to have a 

16 prescriptive standard, but to develop a test 

17 method at different loading points which, 

18 then, combined with a load profile, would 

19 allow you to look at the consumption or the 

20 efficiency, sort of like an SEER value, if you 

21 will, for air conditioning, that would combine 

22 all the load profile, the test procedure at 
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1 different loading, and together you could 

2 develop the economic payback, if you will, of 

3 different load profiles, even for a customer 

4 that has a single speed. So, it is a little 

5 bit more complicated of an analysis, but there 

6 are certainly multiple rulemakings that have 

7 used this approach. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks, Mike. 

9 Yes, Albert? 

10 MR. HUBER: This is Albert Huber 

11 with the Hydraulic Institute. 

12 I just want to comment that the 

13 Hydraulic Institute is currently working on 

14 standards for tests to test this extended 

15 product and an EEI, which is the Energy 

16 Efficiency Index that you would judge the 

17 product by and label it by. So, we are 

18 already in the process of doing that. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you have a 

20 timetable? 

21 MR. HUBER: No, not at this time, 

22 but we are very close at this point. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: But you are close? 

2 MR. HUBER: Yes. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

4 MR. HUBER: Certainly within the 

5 timeframe -- (laughter) -- as close as any 

6 timetable that the DOE has in regulation, more 

7 like 2015. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: There is another 

9 constant refrain in these meetings, and that 

10 is, how soon can you get it to us, right? 

11 (Laughter.) 

12 To the Department. It is always 

13 beneficial. 

14 Okay. Yes, please. 

15 MR. HUBER: Excuse me. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

17 MR. HUBER: We can get it, we 

18 believe we will have it to you this year. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Thank you, 

20 Albert. That is great. 

21 Okay. Please say your name. Leave 

22 that thing on, okay (referring to microphone)? 
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1 MR. BUTLER: Kitt Butler with 

2 Advanced Energy. 

3 I would just like to bring up that 

4 there is a test standard out there for VSD 

5 performance. It is AHRI 1210, and it does get 

6 at the points that were made earlier about 

7 different speeds and matrix between motor and 

8 drive. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: AHRI 1210? Okay. 

10 Thanks. 

11 Alison, let's keep going. 

12 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to describe 

13 a little bit more about what we have been 

14 talking about -- 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, wait. 

16 Go ahead. Your name? 

17 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond from 

18 AHRI. 

19 I just want to add that that AHRI 

20 standard that was 1210 is an ANSI standard as 

21 well. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 
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1 Alison? 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So, in the first 

3 regulatory regime that DOE could follow, they 

4 would regulate just pumps alone, regardless of 

5 how they are sold, which is consistent with 

6 the current EU approach for clean water pumps, 

7 although, as noted, they have been exploring 

8 some additional options. 

9 DOE could also consider looking at 

10 combined pump equipment. So, in Regulatory 

11 Regime 2, it would define pumps as inclusive 

12 of the motor and VSD if sold together. 

13 So, we would end up with two 

14 equipment class sets, which we will talk about 

15 these a little bit later, one for pumps 

16 without VSDs and one for pumps with VSDs. 

17 In the third option, we define 

18 pumps as inclusive of the motor if sold 

19 together. So, you are going to have two 

20 equipment class sets, one for pumps with 

21 motors and one for pumps without motors. 

22 For the pumps with motors, VSDs 
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1 would be considered a design option to 

2 increase efficiency. So, it is kind of like 

3 what happened in the EU circulator regulation 

4 where some of the efficiency levels considered 

5 basically included a VSD. So, it would be 

6 something similar to that. 

7 And just to note that in Regimes 2 

8 and 3, it is possible that the same pump could 

9 be placed into two equipment classes if it is 

10 sold both alone or with a motor or VSD. 

11 This is just a visual description 

12 of what I just discussed. So, the first row 

13 is Regulatory Regime 1, where only the pump 

14 itself is regulated, regardless of how it is 

15 sold. In the second row, the pump itself is 

16 regulated unless it comes with both a motor 

17 and a VSD. And in the third row, it is 

18 regulated based on how it is sold. So, pump 

19 alone if sold alone; pump with a motor and 

20 consider a VSD as a design option for pump21 sold motors, and then, again, the whole set 

22 for the third. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve 

2 Rosenstock. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock, 

4 EEI. 

5 I don't have problems with this 

6 conceptually, and I think it is a really, 

7 really good chart. My only concern is on the 

8 far right side it says, "Pumps sold with VSD". 

9 I would hate to limit any technology. What is 

10 there is some other technology that is -- I 

11 will just say maybe it is a step function 

12 rather than a continuous variable-speed drive. 

13 What if it is an on/off switch for certain 

14 motors? That saves the most energy. 

15 So, in terms of regulatory 

16 function, if you are going to add in the pump, 

17 the motor, and some sort of, I will say, 

18 energy control, it might be better to have a 

19 more inclusive type of language to say we are 

20 not just looking at variable-speed drives; we 

21 are looking at, if we can do it under certain 

22 test procedures, other technologies that might 
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1 control the energy usage of the motor that is 

2 a standalone product. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you now see the 

6 Request for Comment, Item 1-20 and -21. Do 

7 you want to just -- 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. The first is 

9 basically asking whether Regimes 2 or 3 could 

10 generate energy use by increasing the 

11 beneficial use of VSDs in the field or whether 

12 they might have any drawbacks. And we are 

13 also interested in the market share of pumps 

14 by category that would be used in an 

15 application that would benefit from a VSD. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney? 

17 MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka, 

18 Smith & Loveless and the Hydraulic Institute. 

19 In response to your 1-20, the 

20 extended product proposal that HI has 

21 presented for a variable-load profile, VFDs or 

22 variable-speed drives in whatever category 
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1 they would vary the speed of the pump, yes, 

2 that would increase the beneficial use of 

3 them. 

4 As Gary had mentioned earlier about 

5 pump applications, normal pump applications -- 

6 or I shouldn't say "normal" -- many pump 

7 applications can be oversized, and you have to 

8 throttle back, so your motor is running full 

9 speed and you are throttling back. The use of 

10 VFDs can benefit by moving the pump more 

11 towards it Best Efficiency Point, or BEP, on 

12 its pump curve versus moving it away from it, 

13 if you are running at a constant speed. 

14 So, in those variable-speed 

15 applications, yes, VFDs will be a beneficial 

16 use of them. In addition, using extended 

17 product in an EEI approach should move the 

18 market to a more optimum use of these 

19 products. Again, when you have a fragmented 

20 market and people put things together or are 

21 trying to design stuff, you may not get the 

22 most optimum energy-efficient unit at the end. 
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1 Using the extended product, we 

2 believe that you are going to end up with more 

3 proper applications in the market than 

4 improper applications from that aspect. So, 

5 that is on 1-20. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

7 Other comments on 1-20? Joanna? 

8 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. 

9 So, I guess, first, on Option 2, it 

10 seems like there may be an energy-savings 

11 opportunity with Option 2 if there is a 

12 significant variation in VFD efficiency, and I 

13 don't know what that variation is. But it 

14 doesn't seem to us that that would by itself 

15 increase the use of VFDs in the field. I 

16 think it would just have the effect of, if you 

17 are already going to buy a pump with a VFD, 

18 now you are going to get one that has a VFD 

19 with a high efficiency. 

20 I think to us the more interesting 

21 option is Option 3 because we see that the big 

22 opportunity here is increasing the market 
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1 penetration of pumps with VFDs, getting more 

2 VFDs out into the field in applications where 

3 they can save a significant amount of energy. 

4 And so, I think with Option 3 it 

5 seems like in many cases a customer who 

6 otherwise would buy a pump with a motor 

7 without a VFD is now going to get a package 

8 that includes a VFD. So, it seems like it is 

9 an option to increase the use of VFDs in the 

10 field. 

11 And I think the other point about 

12 Option 3 is that, as you mentioned, there 

13 would still be two categories of pumps. There 

14 would still be a separate category of pumps 

15 sold without a motor. And so, certain 

16 customers who have an application where they 

17 are really not going to see a benefit from a 

18 VFD, where using a VSD may not be a beneficial 

19 option for them, that customer still has the 

20 option of buying a pump and separately buying 

21 a motor, so that they still have that option. 

22 They are not required to buy this package that 
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1 includes the VSD. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert? And then, 

3 to Gary. 

4 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic 

5 Institute. 

6 Our proposal today is basically No. 

7 3 or Regime No. 3. And basically, the pump 

8 only would be regulated by an MEI, or a 

9 Minimum Efficiency Index, and our extended 

10 product would have two categories, one being 

11 pump and motor and the other one being pump, 

12 motor, VFD, and feedback. So, this is exactly 

13 what we are proposing. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

15 Joanna, follow on, yes. 

16 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. 

17 Maybe we just need to have some 

18 further discussions, but I think the 

19 difference, the way I see it, between what DOE 

20 has laid out in terms of Option 3 and what you 

21 have just mentioned, Al, is that by having 

22 three categories, customers still have the 
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1 option of buying pump and motor without a VFD, 

2 where I think the real opportunity is getting 

3 more packages that include the VFD out into 

4 the field. And so, I don't have a good 

5 understanding of how having the three 

6 categories would actually increase the market 

7 penetration of products with VFDs. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken, follow on. 

9 MR. NAPOLITANO: No, I would just 

10 say that those are all good questions, and we 

11 are aligned with the notion of figuring out 

12 how to increase the adoption of VFDs. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gary? 

14 MR. FERNSTROM: We strongly agree 

15 with Joanna. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve 

17 Rosenstock? 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

19 Edison Electric Institute. 

20 I guess -- and it is good to hear 

21 -- but I guess in terms of DOE, under Option 

22 3, that would mean that there would be three 
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1 separate test procedures for this product. 

2 With other products there I am familiar with, 

3 I don't know if there are multiple efficiency 

4 test procedures. There is usually just one 

5 test procedure with, I will say, a static 

6 loading and static ambient conditions. 

7 So, again, I don't mind. I would 

8 just say it would be kind of almost, it might 

9 be, again, unless there are other products 

10 that are doing it, it might be setting a 

11 precedent where, again, different 

12 manufacturers might have to do three different 

13 test procedures for all their products versus 

14 other manufacturers would only have to do one 

15 test procedure. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

17 MR. STARR: In terms of Option 3, 

18 the only thing you might consider is perhaps 

19 putting some bookends in terms of the range of 

20 VFDs, where they are required. So, maybe 1 to 

21 25 horsepower. 

22 The concern I might see is that a 
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1 distributor could go out and start buying a 

2 VFD and a bare motor separately and putting 

3 these things together. Or, in other words, if 

4 you had an application where you had a 

5 constant flow, but you had to be buy a VFD, it 

6 is going to make the product more expensive. 

7 But if I can just buy the motor and sell it to 

8 you directly without having to put the VFD, my 

9 price is now lower than your price as a 

10 manufacturer. So, the prices of VFDs get to 

11 be pretty substantial when they get into 

12 certain ranges, and it can be as much as the 

13 product, the pump itself. So, you might think 

14 about some of the fallout of that. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

16 I am eager for us to move on. So, 

17 Alison? 

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, until 

19 now, basically, we have been talking about 

20 pumps with electric motors. DOE acknowledges 

21 that about 10 percent of pumps are driven by 

22 something other than a motor, such as an 
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1 engine or a steam turbine. DOE is potentially 

2 considering regulating those as pumps sold 

3 alone, even if they are driven with an engine, 

4 mostly for simplicity. And we are interested 

5 in comment on the market-share in applications 

6 of the pumps driven by other than electric 

7 motors. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven Rosenstock? 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock, 

10 Edison Electric Institute. 

11 I want to thank you for this slide. 

12 EEI feels very strongly that DOE should take a 

13 fuel- and market-neutral approach to any new 

14 standard. So, I applaud that DOE is going to 

15 regulate these products because that is the 

16 best way to achieve maximum energy savings, 

17 regardless of the driver. 

18 In terms of the efficiency 

19 regulation, all I would say is please try to 

20 be consistent as possible. If you are going 

21 to have three test procedures, like the 

22 previous slides, for products that are using 
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1 electric drivers or controls, then there 

2 should be a similar number of test procedures 

3 for the non-electric drivers, again, to 

4 maximize energy efficiency for these products. 

5 I think that is the best; it is the most 

6 market-neutral and fuel-neutral way to 

7 approach regulating these products. 

8 Thank you. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney? 

10 MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka, 

11 Smith & Loveless, and the Hydraulic Institute. 

12 On that comment on 1-22, the 

13 Hydraulic Institute does not have that data 

14 available, nor is it something that is in the 

15 near future that data available. 

16 One comment on the first statement 

17 there. Approximately 10 percent of the pumps 

18 consider being driven by natural gas or diesel 

19 engines or steam turbines, it is our opinion 

20 that that figure is very high, comparatively 

21 speaking, to our membership and what we 

22 believe is non-electric motors. We think that 
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1 number is extremely high. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you care to 

3 venture what you think it is? 

4 MR. MRKVICKA: Estimate maybe 2 to 

5 3 percent. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

7 Louis? 

8 MR. STARR: I have a little bit of 

9 a question. I wonder if the individual pump 

10 manufacturers know individually what the 

11 numbers of pumps they sold and ones without 

12 motors, and all these variations and comments. 

13 I am wondering, as a collective, they don't 

14 know because that is proprietary information, 

15 and I am not sure -- individual pumps, maybe 

16 that would be a clarification. I am wondering 

17 if the pump manufacturers individually know 

18 how much pumps you sold with motors, how many 

19 you sell without VFDs, but as a group you 

20 don't know. But maybe revealing that 

21 information is problematic. And if that is 

22 the case, it seems like perhaps there could be 
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1 entering in with non-disclosure agreement 

2 would help that. 

3 But am I wrong on that point or 

4 not? 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw both of you. 

6 Who of you would like to go first? Mark? 

7 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel on 

8 behalf of the Hydraulic Institute. 

9 Your statement is correct. In 

10 general, as individual companies, we know that 

11 data. HI has never collected that data. So, 

12 that is why HI doesn't collectively have it. 

13 So, it does exist. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 MR. NAPOLITANO: And I would just 

16 add to that. There probably are some 

17 proprietary confidential aspects of that 

18 within the membership of HI, which we could 

19 potentially get around. And there is also, 

20 you know, the way the channel works. So, 

21 although the manufacturer may sell a pump 

22 without a motor or without a motor and a VFD, 
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1 what we would consider, we would often refer 

2 to as a bare pump, that doesn't mean that one 

3 or more of those devices aren't put together 

4 along the supply chain, such that the customer 

5 gets it complete. 

6 And quite frankly, when the 

7 customer gets it from one of our authorized 

8 distributors, we give the distributor a pump. 

9 He puts a motor or something more on it and 

10 sells it to the customer. The customer pretty 

11 much views that as they got it from the 

12 manufacturer that way because the distributor 

13 is an extension of our supply chain. Where 

14 that value-added occurs in the supply chain, 

15 there is all kinds of market factors as to 

16 what drives that. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

18 MR. STARR: Yes, I guess part of 

19 the reason I brought that up is I did design 

20 for seven years. I never bought a pump 

21 without a motor. I always thought they came 

22 together. 
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1 (Laughter.) 

2 So, that is probably because I was 

3 buying it from the distributor. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison? 

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, 

6 regardless of the Regulatory Regime chosen, 

7 DOE has reviewed some existing efficiency 

8 metrics for pumps. 

9 The first one is pump efficiency, 

10 the ratio of hydraulic power to shaft input 

11 power. This is used in the EU clean water 

12 pump regulation and HI 20.3 and other country 

13 regulations, such as Mexico, South Korea, and 

14 China. The pump efficiency does not take into 

15 account the motor. 

16 On the other hand, the overall 

17 wire-to-water efficiency takes into account 

18 electric input power at either a motor or 

19 control, depending on how it is defined. And 

20 this is used in Mexico for submersible pumps, 

21 where they basically have a minimum pump 

22 efficiency multiplied by a minimum motor 
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1 efficiency. 

2 The EEI is the Energy Efficiency 

3 Index used for circulators in the EU, based on 

4 some reference power from the market when it 

5 was developed. 

6 And bowl efficiency is similar to 

7 pump efficiency, but for a single bowl in 

8 vertically-suspended pumps, which is used in 

9 HI 14.6. 

10 So, as the stakeholders have 

11 recommended the EU approach, DOE has reviewed 

12 it a little more. Again, pump efficiency is 

13 the metric, and they set minimum pump 

14 efficiency by taking into account flow, 

15 specific speed, pump type, and speed. And 

16 just to note, the specific speed also 

17 incorporates head. 

18 And the result is this 3D surface 

19 that you can see here where efficiency is a 

20 function of flow and specific speed, and they 

21 raise the surface up and down, depending on 

22 equipment class and design speed, in order to 
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1 set the standard for a specific equipment 

2 class. 

3 They also have a house-of4 efficiency approach where they set pump 

5 efficiency at both the Best Efficiency Point, 

6 75 percent BEP flow and 110 BEP flow. And the 

7 requirement is that each of the part-load and 

8 overload points are based on the requirement 

9 BEP, and a pump has to pass all three points 

10 to meet the standard. 

11 The standard is also based on full 

12 impeller only, and they test on a certain 

13 number of stages for their multi-stage pumps 

14 in the regulation. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's pause there. 

16 Steve Rosenstock? 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

18 Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 

19 At 110 percent, again, I am just 

20 going to use the 110 percent flow is an 

21 overload situation. I guess is that just for 

22 temporary like a startup condition or -- 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert wishes to 

2 comment. 

3 MR. HUBER: A hundred and ten 

4 percent is 110 percent of BEP, 10 percent more 

5 than the Best Efficiency Point. It is just 

6 running at the higher flow. You are not 

7 overloading the pump nor the motor nor 

8 anything else. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you for 

10 that. I appreciate that. 

11 MR. HUBER: To further clarify 

12 that, 75 to 110 is pretty much our preferred 

13 operating range. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison? 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Overload is just a 

16 nomenclature used by the EU, for example. 

17 So, in considering these metrics, 

18 DOE is considering following the EU approach 

19 using pump efficiency at 3 points for all 

20 pumps sold alone or all pumps sold alone not 

21 considering motor and controls. 

22 DOE may consider some other 
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1 metrics, such as overall efficiency for 

2 submersible pumps or bowl efficiency for 

3 vertically-suspended pumps. 

4 In the other options where DOE 

5 defines pumps inclusive of motor and controls, 

6 pump efficiency is not a sufficient metric. 

7 So, in Regime 2 for pumps sold with both 

8 motors and VSDs, DOE is considering overall 

9 efficiency as the metric in order to account 

10 for the use of more efficient VSDs. So, this 

11 would be, again, possibly overall efficiency 

12 at 3 points. 

13 And in Regime 3 for pumps sold with 

14 motors, DOE would need a different metric that 

15 would enable it to compare the energy 

16 efficiency of pumps with VSDs to those with 

17 motors but without VSDs. So, we believe it 

18 would be some sort of electric input power19 based metric and have a few options laid out 

20 in the framework document, but it would need 

21 to be more extensive than the overall 

22 efficiency metric. 
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1 Again, if DOE pursues Regime 2 or 

2 3, there would be multiple equipment class 

3 sets in these cases. So, DOE must consider 

4 how to deal with the metrics. 

5 The first option is to just set the 

6 most appropriate metric for each equipment 

7 class set and not worry about them being 

8 consistent. 

9 The second is where you have the 

10 same metric for all equipment classes, and you 

11 might include some standardized numbers for 

12 motor or VSD efficiency for some of them. 

13 And the third one, you would have 

14 the same metric, probably pump efficiency, for 

15 all classes and potentially have another 

16 metric for the pumps including the motor 

17 and/or VSD. 

18 This table is basically summarizing 

19 those options. In the first metric option of 

20 separate, those are basically what DOE is 

21 considering as most appropriate for each of 

22 those, pump efficiency, overall efficiency, 
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1 and electric input power-based, and others 

2 show the different combinations of how the 

3 metrics could potentially work with the 

4 different regimes. 

5 DOE notes that these options may 

6 impact manufacturer burden. As we mentioned, 

7 a pump both sold alone and with other 

8 equipment could be placed into two equipment 

9 classes, which may each have their own 

10 standard. DOE believes that potentially the 

11 same testing could be used, and you may just 

12 have to take additional measurements, such as 

13 both shaft input power and electric input 

14 power to the motor or VSD, or simply taking 

15 pump efficiency and multiplying it by other 

16 standardized numbers. 

17 So, these are the comments. This 

18 first comment page is about pumps alone. So, 

19 following the EU approach, whether 75 and 110 

20 percent are the best points, and whether it 

21 should consider other metrics for submersible 

22 or vertically-suspended pumps. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just do that 

2 one first. 

3 Ken? 

4 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano, 

5 the Hydraulic Institute. 

6 So, with respect to the operating 

7 range of 75 percent to 110 percent, we support 

8 that. That is our position, not only because 

9 it is harmonized with the EU, but because it 

10 is the appropriate range to optimize 

11 efficiency. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

13 Yes, Greg? 

14 MR. CASE: To follow up on that, it 

15 also is in accordance with our HI preferred 

16 operating region, ANSI HI 9.6.3. So, there is 

17 a standard that backs up that flow range. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

19 Okay. Do you want to set up the 

20 next item? 

21 Oh, Steve Rosenstock? 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 
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1 EEI. 

2 And again, I appreciate the tables 

3 that you put out. I guess, again, I kind of 

4 think of this from the end-user. If there are 

5 -- how do I say it? -- if there are different 

6 metrics, but they sound alike, if they are all 

7 saying they’re pump efficiency, but they 

8 really tested differently, I am a little 

9 worried about possible customer confusion, 

10 just because if one thing is 81 percent and 

11 the other one is 83 percent and another one is 

12 85 percent, but if there are different tests, 

13 and they might need different things in terms 

14 of energy consumption, again, as we go down, I 

15 think there should try to be a way to make 

16 sure that there is minimum confusion for the 

17 end-user customer, that if one is 83 and 

18 another one is 81, the customer would say, 

19 okay, the 83 is going to be more efficient. 

20 And I just want to make sure it is going to be 

21 more efficient for the customer. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison? 
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. I mean, I 

2 have kind of reviewed all these. So, that is 

3 moving on kind of to the other regimes. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Hang on a second. 

5 Let's make sure. 

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Look at the page, 

8 please. Item 1-29, 1-30, and 1-31. Let's 

9 make certain we have gotten the comments that 

10 we wish to get here. 

11 Greg? 

12 MR. CASE: On 1-29, again, echoing 

13 the comments from 1-28, we would like to 

14 remain harmonized as much as possible with EU. 

15 So, if we can stay in that range, we would 

16 like to stay there. 

17 And it is, again, supported by the 

18 ANSI/HI allowable operating region document. 

19 So, instead of expanding that to a larger 

20 range, we would like to stay within that 

21 range. That is the preferred operating 

22 region. That is where pumps operate, where we 
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1 tell our customers that is where they should 

2 operate their pumps. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

4 Albert? 

5 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber, Hydraulic 

6 Institute. 

7 I would like to point out that, if 

8 you are asking here if you can broaden the 

9 efficiency curves, if you broaden the curve, 

10 then your peak efficience or the BEP will drop 

11 by design. So, you will be defeating the 

12 purpose. The whole purpose of energy 

13 efficiency in pumps is to operate the pump at 

14 its BEP. And to broaden it out, so you lower 

15 it, you are defeating the purpose. 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Just to clarify, we 

17 are not necessarily suggesting broadening the 

18 curves. You could suggest other points 

19 between 75 and 110. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Greg. 

21 Do you wish to follow on, Albert? 

22 No? 
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1 Greg? 

2 MR. CASE: Also, the possibility of 

3 using a weighted average, we could create a 

4 pump curve that had a weighted average that 

5 had a higher peak value, but was not as broad. 

6 So, it wouldn't be as applicable over a larger 

7 flow range. 

8 So, the reason the house of 

9 efficiency was created was to create wider 

10 high-efficiency zones on pumps, so they could 

11 be applied over a wider range of flows and 

12 still maintain a high efficiency. 

13 We can design pumps that have a 

14 very high peak efficiency and a very narrow 

15 band of efficiency. And I don't think that is 

16 where you want us to go. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Got it. 

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, the next 

19 comment, 1-32 is about Regime 2, whether 

20 overall efficiency at 3 points would be an 

21 appropriate metric for that regime. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 
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1 MR. CASE: Greg Case with Hydraulic 

2 Institute. 

3 The Hydraulic Institute believes 

4 that this would increase the testing burden on 

5 manufacturers. These costs would also be 

6 passed on in the market. So, these costs 

7 would go up to the consumer, as we had to do 

8 all these different tests, possibly different 

9 vendors for multiple motor manufacturers, et 

10 cetera. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna? 

12 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. 

13 I guess I am a little confused 

14 about Item 1-32. For pumps sold with a motor 

15 and VSD, I would imagine that you would want 

16 to have test points where the pump is 

17 operating at a lower speed. 

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, we are 

19 requesting comment on whether we should add 

20 additional test points below 75 percent for 

21 that reason, to capture lower speeds that the 

22 pump or the VSD might be running at. 
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1 So, to clarify, the EU approach is 

2 testing at the same speed for all three 

3 points, but DOES could consider testing at 

4 different speeds to meet either of those same 

5 points or different points. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Neal? 

7 MR. ELLIOTT: This is Neal Elliott, 

8 ACEEE. 

9 Clarification here: once you 

10 change the speed at which the pump is 

11 operating, you change the BEP, correct? You 

12 are going to move it down? So, we need to be 

13 careful here in our terminology. When we are 

14 saying this, you know, when you change the 

15 speed of the pump, you change the pump curve. 

16 It is not the same flow or pressure or these 

17 factors. So, it is a little more complex. I 

18 think we need to be clear about that in how we 

19 communicate it. 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So, to be precise, 

21 it should be intended to be 75 percent of the 

22 BEP flow at full speed. So, you would, then, 
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1 potentially -- again, these are just 

2 considerations -- you would reduce speed to 

3 the equivalent. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Did that make it 

5 more clear? Go ahead. 

6 MR. ELLIOTT: I guess the point we 

7 need to be cognizant of is, when we are 

8 talking about the multiple testing points, 

9 that may be multiple testing points at 

10 multiple speeds, if we are talking about a VFD 

11 because we will have multiple BEPs at 

12 different speeds. And I don't know that that 

13 matters hydraulically. 

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, I mean, 

15 that can be worked out, right? I mean, I 

16 think what was considered in the framework 

17 document -- and again, we are open to other 

18 suggestions -- is you might test the 100 

19 percent point at full speed, 75 percent at 75 

20 percent, or, you know, at a reduced speed 

21 equivalent to 75 percent flow at full speed. 

22 Sorry. It is a little confusing. But you 
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1 wouldn't necessarily have to have multiple 

2 points on the same reduced-speed curve. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure 

4 we drag this to the ground before we are 

5 finished. 

6 (Laughter.) 

7 Go ahead. 

8 MR. FERMAN: Yes, Randal Ferman, 

9 Ekwestrel Corp Consulting. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. Get to 

11 the microphone. We need this on the record. 

12 And then, I am going to Rodney. 

13 MR. FERMAN: Okay. I just wanted 

14 to, hopefully, clarify this point about 

15 operating at multiple speeds. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

17 MR. FERMAN: In a pure friction 

18 system curve, which is fairly common in the 

19 smaller pumping systems, you drop it to a 

20 lower speed and the pump is still at its best 

21 efficiency point, if it was sized at its best 

22 efficiency point at full speed. So, there may 
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1 be no issue as far as dropping speed relative 

2 to the pump performance curve itself. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, there is a 

4 microphone right there. The Mike Rivest 

5 follow-on. 

6 I haven't forgotten you, Rodney. 

7 MR. RIVEST: Yes, Mike Rivest, 

8 Navigant Consulting. 

9 So, this boils down to how we 

10 define efficiency. What we are trying to 

11 achieve is energy savings. So, if we operate 

12 the pump at a lower speed and lower efficiency 

13 but we consume less energy, then that is our 

14 goal. So, I don't think -- I am seeing heads 

15 saying yes. 

16 So, the question we are trying to 

17 answer is, what are the points, the test 

18 points, we should be looking at that would 

19 best reflect how systems operate, so that we 

20 capture the energy use? 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to go to 

22 Rodney, unless you want to let him follow on. 
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1 Gary? Go ahead. 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. 

3 I am definitely with Mike on this. 

4 This is complicated, and we are talking about 

5 two different things. 

6 So, with the pump running at a 

7 fixed speed, perhaps its maximum speed, to get 

8 this house of efficiency, we would like to see 

9 how it performs when it is a little bit 

10 underloaded and a little bit overloaded, the 

11 presumption being that in a lot of cases in 

12 real application it is going to be a little 

13 bit underloaded. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-hum. 

15 MR. FERNSTROM: However, when you 

16 connect the VFD, the overall efficiency is how 

17 much clean water you move per unit of energy 

18 that is consumed. And pumps that operate at a 

19 lower flow and a lower total dynamic head are 

20 fundamentally presenting a greater system 

21 efficiency than ones that are operating at 

22 high flow and high head. So, somehow in our 
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1 metric we would like to capture this. 

2 So, it is complicated. I think it 

3 merits a lot more discussion and thought. But 

4 we want to make sure we get the right metric. 

5 In my mind, it aligns with what Mike is 

6 thinking. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Rodney? 

8 MR. MRKVICKA: Rodney Mrkvicka, 

9 Smith & Loveless and the Hydraulic Institute. 

10 With respect to the points that you 

11 have there, BEP 75 percent and 110 percent, 

12 that associates to the pump or the bare pump 

13 efficiency as itself. So, the bare pump will 

14 be evaluated against those points through what 

15 was mentioned earlier, the MEI, or Minimum 

16 Efficiency Index. So, that is the bare pump. 

17 When you put it into an extended 

18 product, you now have taken that extended 

19 product and you are evaluating against its 

20 system or load curve. From that standpoint, 

21 that unit has to operate to a system or load 

22 curve for whatever use it has been put into. 
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1 The points, then, that the EEI 

2 evaluated, is evaluated against, is a load 

3 curve set of points, not these BEP points. 

4 So, what is up there as 75 percent and 110 

5 percent are just on the pump head or the MEI 

6 side. EEI will be evaluated versus a load 

7 curve, and that will be different points over 

8 the load, whether that is flow or pump head. 

9 That varies through for whatever system you 

10 are going to apply this into. 

11 When you do that, and to mention 

12 the same comments that were mentioned earlier, 

13 the extended product is to save energy. And 

14 the amount of energy saved of a controlled 

15 product system versus an uncontrolled product 

16 system is what we are trying to achieve with 

17 the extended product. And that is where we 

18 get that 10-to-1 ratio of greater energy 

19 savings going ahead. 

20 So, the points that here relate 

21 just to the bare pump evaluation or the MEI 

22 index. Our intention is to have various load 
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1 profiles that the extended product will be 

2 evaluated against to tell you what the energy 

3 usage is, and the EEI will end up being a 

4 ratio between controlled and uncontrolled 

5 energy usage on that system. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to clarify, 

8 in the framework document we are discussing 

9 some options. You know, we are starting with 

10 the 75 and 110, and there is a table and a 

11 figure about how the different metrics for 

12 Regime 2, or particularly Regime 3, could 

13 create a metric based on different load 

14 points. So, DOE is certainly interested in 

15 any feedback on what those load points would 

16 be. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you on this 

18 point? Okay, Steve Rosenstock. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

20 EEI. 

21 I think at some point -- you know, 

22 this is obviously a very big test procedure 
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1 question. I think you have the wonderful 

2 charts. If you show a table or chart that 

3 shows the test procedure and how it might 

4 operate for each of the different types of 

5 systems, pump alone, pump with motors, pump 

6 with VSD, and just show, I will say, the test 

7 conditions, I think that will help everybody 

8 in terms of, you know, will you be able to 

9 show the savings with the VFD, yes or no; will 

10 you be able to show the savings with a more 

11 efficient motor, yes or no? Once that is out, 

12 I think that will help answer a lot of 

13 questions. 

14 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles Llenza 

15 from the Department of Energy. 

16 The test procedure process is 

17 parallel, but it will have its own formats for 

18 meetings, for comments, et cetera. We welcome 

19 as much advance comments as to the nature of 

20 what we should be including, how complicated 

21 it should be or not be, and, also, 

22 streamlining any tests that are out there, 
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1 integrating them into the DOE test procedure 

2 in such a way that we don't create any 

3 additional burdens, where possible. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Well, I think we 

5 have kind of clarified the intent of these 

6 questions here. Do we have any other specific 

7 comment before we move on? 

8 (No response.) 

9 We are moving on. 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, just the 

11 final comment request on this item is any 

12 issues that result from having different 

13 metrics for pumps sold alone and pumps sold 

14 with motors and VSDs. I think that was 

15 discussed a little bit already. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Any 

17 amplification? Go ahead, Rodney. 

18 MR. MRKVICKA: Just a statement. 

19 Oh, I'm sorry. Rod Mrkvicka from Smith & 

20 Loveless and the Hydraulic Institute. 

21 The Institute doesn't anticipate 

22 any issues between pumps sold alone and pumps 
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1 sold with motors and VFDs or the extended 

2 product, as we defined it, because we are 

3 stating that the pump, it has to meet an MEI, 

4 Minimum Efficiency Index, either way, whether 

5 it is sold alone or in an extended product. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Aha. Okay. Okay. 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, just to 

8 move forward with the potential implementation 

9 methods, DOE is considering whether to follow 

10 the EU approach where any standard would be a 

11 function of flow and specific speed. DOE could 

12 also explore other parameters, such as head. 

13 DOE has done some initial analysis 

14 in comparing the U.S. market to the EU market 

15 to look at the EU surfaces. As I mentioned 

16 before, this is based on data that we pulled 

17 from the PUMP-FLO software to find all these 

18 different pump models we could look at. 

19 So, our first comparison is if we 

20 create our own surface using the same form as 

21 the EU and compare it to the EU. So, we have 

22 both the 3D version on the left, which may or 
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1 may not rotate. Okay, never mind. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 And on the right, it is a 2D 

4 version of that where we are looking at a few 

5 different specific speeds. So, the left is 

6 specific speed versus flow. And just because 

7 that is a little bit hard to see, the right is 

8 a comparison at a few different specific 

9 speeds between surfaces that we developed with 

10 U.S. data and the EU surface. 

11 And again, these surfaces are just 

12 kind of show a methodology. Any information 

13 we got about pump models would change these 

14 surfaces. 

15 (Computer problem.) 

16 We may need a break. 

17 (Laughter.) 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you think it is 

19 stalled at this point? 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: I am going to close 

21 it out and reopen it. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Just if you are 
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1 curious, shortly we are going to be pausing 

2 for lunch because we are due for lunch. 

3 (Laughter.) 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, because 

5 the U.S. market and the EU market do not 

6 appear to be completely identical, we have 

7 been exploring other methods. So, we could 

8 either use the same surfaces as EU and just 

9 change the C-values to move the surface up and 

10 down or we can actually create our own 

11 surfaces for the U.S. market that are specific 

12 to individual product classes and actually 

13 specific to the efficiency level. 

14 So, again, you can see the 3D 

15 surface. I am not going to try to play this 

16 movie, I guess. They are really cool, though. 

17 (Laughter.) 

18 Basically, the 2D slice is showing 

19 you that the surface can flatten from bottom 

20 to top of market because high flow pumps 

21 generally max out their efficiency sooner 

22 because they can reach higher efficiencies. 
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1 So, DOE has the ability to kind of follow the 

2 EU approach, but make it a little more 

3 specific to both the U.S. market and more 

4 accurate, specific efficiency levels. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve, please. 

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

7 EEI. 

8 So, at some point, there would be, 

9 I will say, three graphs, one at BEP, one at 

10 75 BEP, and then, one at 110 BEP possibly? 

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, so the EU 

12 didn't actually do that. They only have the 

13 graph at BEP. Someone can correct me if I am 

14 wrong. And then, they just have a multiplying 

15 factor. So, .947 and .985. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, DOE requests 

18 comment on this implementation methodology, 

19 including whether flow and specific speed are 

20 the appropriate parameters, whether they 

21 should maintain the same surfaces, or adjust 

22 them, or make them most appropriate to the 
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1 different efficiency levels. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, is this you? 

3 No? 

4 Greg? Thank you. 

5 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 

6 Institute. 

7 We would support staying with the 

8 EU equation except for that C-factor at the 

9 end. Again, from the result of harmonization, 

10 we would like to do that. 

11 We also have done our own survey of 

12 our members, and we have 2,000 data points 

13 over all classes of pumps. With that, we 

14 found that we got a reasonably-good dropout 

15 rate. 

16 Now one of the things that is much 

17 different from what you did than what the EU 

18 did was you don't have any dropout rates here. 

19 You have got a centerline that kind of goes 

20 through the middle of the data. You have got 

21 a top of market, and you have got a bottom of 

22 market. There are no MEI values in here. 
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1 So, I found it very difficult to 

2 try to equate what you got with what the EU 

3 has proposed. And so, that makes it kind of 

4 hard to know if your surfaces are better or 

5 worse than their surfaces. 

6 I would have to agree that we could 

7 get equations that fit this data better, but 

8 in an attempt to harmonize with Europe and 

9 also reduce the burden to manufacturers of 

10 having to meet multiple different equations 

11 that they are going to have for each equipment 

12 class, the Hydraulic Institute would prefer 

13 that we just use that C-value to change 

14 things. 

15 And we also found that our C-value 

16 was different than the European C-value, but 

17 it is still a very simple change to move that 

18 vertically on those C-values. I don't know if 

19 you have data on how far off theirs was. I 

20 mean, you have to assume in your analysis that 

21 your median and your mean were equal for your 

22 analysis to work, and I don't know that we can 
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1 assume that. 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, so just 

3 conceptually our average surface I showed 

4 would be equivalent to the EU MEI 50. 

5 MR. CASE: But, again, you have to 

6 assume that your median and your mean are the 

7 equal, and I can't take that leap of faith. 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Also, just a point 

9 of clarification, I mean, if you are changing 

10 the C-values, you are still not exactly 

11 harmonized with the EU, right? 

12 MR. CASE: That is correct. There 

13 would have to be two -- 

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So, regardless of 

15 how you change it, you are not harmonized. 

16 MR. CASE: Yes, but you don't have 

17 to change the seven variables instead of just 

18 the one. They have different C-values for 

19 different motor -- 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. 

21 MR. CASE: -- or different 

22 equipment class and different speeds. And we 
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1 would just propose that, for our speeds and 

2 our equipment classes, we would have a 

3 C-adjusted value. The C-factor would be 

4 adjusted. That would be our preference as 

5 manufacturers. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, did I hear you 

7 correctly? Did you say your survey has 2,000 

8 data points? 

9 MR. CASE: We have 2,024 data 

10 points. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you provide 

12 those to the Department of Energy? 

13 MR. CASE: We will provide those to 

14 the Department of Energy and, also, those are 

15 within the scope that we proposed. That 

16 doesn't go beyond that scope. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I got you. Well, 

18 that is still a hell of a start. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 Ken, go ahead. 

21 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, I would like 

22 to just follow up on that. And we took this 
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1 up at the recent Hydraulic Institute Board 

2 meeting. 

3 So, as Greg said, on the scope that 

4 we had originally proposed -- so, it didn't 

5 include ANSI pumps, et cetera -- we went out 

6 and got a large group of the HI membership who 

7 participate in that class and confidentially 

8 gathered all that technical data. It was a 

9 huge effort. And we had an independent third 

10 party aggregate the data. 

11 We believe it is, for that scope, 

12 very statistically-significant, an accurate 

13 representation of the baseline, the current 

14 state. 

15 And we recently, through vote of 

16 the Board, have agreed to provide the DOE with 

17 that data, and at least for that scope of 

18 pumps, wherever the scope shakes out, we would 

19 recommend using that as the baseline because 

20 we have all validated that data. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

22 Do you have any questions before I 
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1 move on, Alison? 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: No, and the 

3 subsequent questions are basically asking for 

4 what we are talking about, additional pump 

5 data that would help improve our database at 

6 full speed BEP flow, 75, and 110. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought that was 

8 pretty clear. You don't have any 

9 clarifications on what they said, no? 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: No. Just move on. 

11 Sorry. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Greg? 

13 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic 

14 Institute. 

15 One more comment. We noticed in 

16 your data that you have 27,000 pumps listed. 

17 When Europe did their survey, they had 2,300-

18 plus. 

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 

20 MR. CASE: We have 2,024 in ours. 

21 So, we believe that your dataset may be a lot 

22 larger than what the dataset actually is out 
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1 in the universe. 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, just to 

3 clarify, it does include multiple-speed and 

4 multiple-stage versions of basic pump models. 

5 So, it is something we will work to refine in 

6 the future. 

7 MR. CASE: But you have over 2,000 

8 pumps in one style of pump. 

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-hum. 

10 MR. CASE: And we didn't come 

11 anywhere near that. Again, you had a larger 

12 scope than we did, but I just want to make -- 

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I don't think 

14 the scope is all that much larger, but, yes, 

15 it is coming from 115 manufacturer catalogs 

16 and all their 60-hertz models at full 

17 impeller. So, I can't answer to discrepancy. 

18 Okay. So -- 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait. Are we there? 

20 Have you got one more? Yes, one more. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. Okay. So, 

22 just to follow up, DOE is considering 
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1 following the EU, also, on the other things of 

2 basing the standard on full impeller and 

3 testing based on certain number of stages for 

4 radial split and submersible pumps. 

5 And just to mention that we don't 

6 think the axial split multi-stage could be 

7 tested in one stage version because they are 

8 not cellular in nature. 

9 So, we are basically requesting 

10 comments on these suggestions. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 

12 MR. CASE: We would concur that it 

13 should be tested at full diameter. That is, 

14 again, harmonized with the EU standard. We 

15 all do testing at that diameter. The pump is 

16 most efficient at that diameter. So, we 

17 believe that we should stay with that full 

18 diameter. So, that was 1-40. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

20 MR. CASE: In 1-41, again, we would 

21 like to stay harmonized with the EU standard. 

22 We think the number of single-stage pumps that 
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1 are actually sold is very limited. In the EU 

2 standard, they use three stages for the radial 

3 multi-stage and nine stages for the 

4 submersibles. And we found that that is where 

5 we took our data points from when we did our 

6 survey. We find those values to be reasonable 

7 or those stages to be reasonable. 

8 If you test these as a one-stage 

9 pump, you are introducing all the efficiency 

10 losses for your intake and your discharge into 

11 that one stage; that will bring those 

12 efficiencies down. 

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Just to 

14 clarify, the suggestion was, the alternative 

15 would not necessarily be to test a single 

16 stage, but to test in whatever configuration 

17 you are selling your pump. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay. 

19 And then, finally, 1-42. Comments 

20 on that? Steve? 

21 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 

22 Steve Schmitz, Hydraulic Institute. 
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1 The Hydraulic Institute does not 

2 have information regarding the percent of 

3 pumps sold at full impeller diameters, for a 

4 number of the reasons that have already been 

5 stated. But we would be happy to cooperate 

6 with DOE in a joint analysis of obtaining this 

7 data. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 

9 here? Anything? 

10 (No response.) 

11 So, we have reached a point where 

12 we can pause for lunch. 

13 And let me say that this has been 

14 an unusually effective comment at the 

15 framework stage. I think it is a very, very 

16 useful gleaning of information. And so, I 

17 thank all of you. 

18 Don't go anywhere after lunch. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 It is now 12:30. It takes just 

21 about an hour to eat if you stay in the 

22 building. If you leave the building, you need 
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1 to clear back through security and all that. 

2 Don't do that. We can all go en masse down 

3 the elevator and across about 100 yards that 

4 away to the big cafeteria. There is also a 

5 Subway shop directly below us on the ground 

6 floor. You need to go to the ground floor in 

7 any case to get to eat. 

8 We are going to resume at 1:30. 

9 Once again, let me remind you, you must wear 

10 this badge. This room will be locked. So, 

11 you can leave your stuff. Someone will be 

12 here. It will be locked. You might need an 

13 ID to get back in. In the cafeteria, you will 

14 have to clear back through a secure portal. 

15 So, you might need an ID to get back in. 

16 So, anyway, a very good, very 

17 constructive morning. Thank you for that. 

18 We will resume at 1:30 right here. 

19 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

20 went off the record for lunch at 12:29 p.m. 

21 and went back on the record at 1:33 p.m.) 

22

23
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

2 1:33 p.m. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: As a tool, and to 

4 provide information, the Department typically 

5 makes a Xerox copy of the business cards of 

6 all the individuals who are present. And so, 

7 Brenda Edwards just distributed that. And if 

8 you didn't get one, I am sure you can get your 

9 hands on a copy. So, that should be there for 

10 you as a reference document. 

11 So, we are going to proceed, and we 

12 are going to pick up where we left off and 

13 hear about test procedures. We are going to 

14 hear from Sarah Widder. 

15 MS. WIDDER: Good afternoon. 

16 As Doug said, I am Sarah Widder 

17 from Pacific Northwest National Lab. 

18 It looks like we haven't quite 

19 gotten everybody back. So, we will try to 

20 breeze through this before we get everybody. 

21 (Laughter.) 

22 No, I am just kidding. I hope we 
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1 don't have any comments. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 But, hopefully, we have been 

4 through a lot of the main scope-related issues 

5 in this morning's discussion that are going to 

6 be pertinent to the test procedure. So, I 

7 would like you to keep those in mind. 

8 And the first point of the test 

9 procedure is that, as Charlie mentioned, this 

10 is going to be a separate, but concurrent 

11 rulemaking process. The test procedure 

12 rulemaking and the standards rulemaking really 

13 work together. We need those well-described 

14 test procedures to understand the basis for 

15 how we build up that metric for pumps and how 

16 we understand, then, the ability to save 

17 energy based on those metrics. 

18 So, the test procedure is very 

19 important for the standard, but it is going to 

20 occur as a separate process. That will start 

21 with a NOPR document that will be published, 

22 probably the next document you will see out of 
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1 this effort. 

2 And then, we will have a NOPR 

3 public meeting just like this. And that will 

4 be the opportunity to really get into the 

5 weeds on some of the technical details. 

6 Right now, we are just going to 

7 stay a little bit higher, talking about scope 

8 and what we want to start to think about for 

9 the test procedure. 

10 I sort of described the 

11 relationship between the standards and the 

12 test procedure, but once the pumps test 

13 procedure is established, every manufacturer 

14 must use that test procedure to establish the 

15 efficiency metrics and to show compliance with 

16 DOE standards, once those are set. And so, it 

17 is really important that we think about both 

18 the scope and the burden associated with these 

19 test procedures. 

20 And as a basis, DOE really looks 

21 out to the industry, what is available in the 

22 industry. We want to minimize burden with the 
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1 test procedures and have them have the 

2 flexibility to establish perhaps efficiency at 

3 multiple speeds or multiple rating points, if 

4 that is what we need to sufficiently describe 

5 the energy use or energy efficiency of a pump, 

6 but do that with the least amount of 

7 additional burden. 

8 So, the first standard, industry 

9 standard test procedure, and probably the most 

10 prominent one that DOE reviewed, was HI 14.6, 

11 and you have heard that brought up. That is 

12 the test for rotodynamic pumps, and it is an 

13 acceptance test, that is really the framework 

14 it is written from currently. It applies to 

15 any size centrifugal, mixed-flow, or axial16 flow rotodynamic pump without fittings and is 

17 particular to pumps that use clear water. 

18 It does have provisions for using 

19 alternative homogenous liquids, but since we 

20 are preliminarily considering pumps just for 

21 clear water applications, we will just be 

22 using -- the standard would be sufficient to 
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1 test those pumps. It is based on measuring 

2 the flow of the pump's liquid and, then, the 

3 power input to the pump to measure efficiency. 

4 That is harmonized with an ISO 

5 Standard 9906 that was recently updated and 

6 has several grades of precision. Those two 

7 standards, as you have heard, are harmonized 

8 and have very similar test requirements and 

9 test metrics, as well as definitions. 

10 The one thing that 14.6 doesn't 

11 address very well is submersible pumps. HI 

12 has a separate standard for that, 11.6. It 

13 has similar metrics and test conditions. It 

14 is also harmonized with the 14.6 test for 

15 rotodynamic pumps, but it is particular to 

16 submersible pumps where it is very difficult 

17 to measure the power input to the shaft 

18 because that is all one package. And also, it 

19 is particular only to clean water. 

20 DOE also reviewed the ISO Standard 

21 for precision class testing, using a 

22 thermodynamic method. There could be reasons 
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1 to consider a method like that if it is a 

2 very, very large pump where it is difficult to 

3 measure flow precisely. So, instead of 

4 measuring flow based on a flow measurement 

5 device, it is measured based on thermodynamic 

6 principles of temperature and pressure of the 

7 water. 

8 So, in reviewing those standards, 

9 DOE is considering using HI 14.6 as the basis 

10 for the test procedure rulemaking since it 

11 seems to be a widely-accepted test standard 

12 for pumps and covers most of the scope of 

13 pumps we have been discussing here today. 

14 DOE requests comment on using HI 

15 14.6 2011 and HI 11.6 for submersible pumps. 

16 We also request comment on the other standards 

17 that we reviewed or any other standards that 

18 we may not have listed here that would be 

19 important for DOE to be aware of as we move 

20 forward with the test procedure rulemaking, to 

21 make sure that we are considering all the 

22 available procedures. 
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1 We also request comment on the 

2 scope of these test procedures, if there are 

3 any particular elements that they are not 

4 appropriate, or the comment earlier about 

5 making sure we are able to quantify the 

6 performance of pumps that are driven by gas or 

7 engines as opposed to electric motors might be 

8 something that we will have to consider as we 

9 move forward. 

10 And then, DOE is also interested in 

11 the pros and cons of the thermodynamic 

12 approach and when that might be more 

13 appropriate than explicitly measuring flow. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's start with 

15 1-43. 

16 Arnold Sdano? 

17 MR. SDANO: Arnold Sdano, Pentair, 

18 representing HI. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that turned on 

20 (referring to the microphone)? 

21 MR. SDANO: Thank you. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 
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1 MR. SDANO: Arnold Sdano, Pentair, 

2 representing HI. 

3 At HI, we have developed a formal, 

4 written response to this that is a little 

5 wordy. So, just to summarize, as mentioned 

6 previously, we have started the efforts or 

7 drafting a 14.6 DOE because we think that that 

8 is appropriate. And what it is is a condensed 

9 version of the 14.6 standard, focusing on what 

10 is required for this Committee's work, where 

11 we eliminate things like the mechanical tests 

12 and NPSH and the effect of reducing impeller 

13 diameter. 

14 And towards that end, on the 

15 extended product approach, we are expanding 

16 the Appendix G, which is for string testing, 

17 where we would include the scope of 

18 submersible pumps or testing with motors and 

19 VFDs in that appendix as well. 

20 So, all the appendices that were 

21 not normative in the existing standard are 

22 going to be made normative in this standard. 
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1 That draft has been presented to the 

2 Subcommittee at HI that had prepared it. I am 

3 starting to get comments back to that, and we 

4 expect to have that ready to present to the 

5 Department along with the deadline for these 

6 comments by, I think it was, May 2nd. 

7 MS. WIDDER: That is very helpful. 

8 Thank you. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So, you have adapted 

10 and, as you said, condensed. Is it much 

11 different than the existing HI 14.6? 

12 MR. SDANO: What it has done is it 

13 has focused-in on what we believe are the 

14 pertinent criteria, Grade 2 testing, Grade 

15 2(b) acceptance criteria. It doesn't 

16 reference anything of MEI because we 

17 understand that that has to be sorted out 

18 later, you know MEI 10, or whatever the level 

19 is going to be, nor does it get into what the 

20 EEI might be as acceptance levels. But it 

21 sets the protocol, the calibration periods, 

22 the instrumentation and accuracy, the 
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1 instrumentation fluctuations that are 

2 required. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Excellent. And you 

4 did not comment on 11.6 and the two ISOs that 

5 are listed in Comment 1-43. 

6 MR. SDANO: The elements required 

7 out of 11.6 are going to be included into the 

8 Appendix G, which is for string testing. 

9 Considering that the pump and the motor are a 

10 combined-unit in submersibles, we think that 

11 is an appropriate area to include that. 

12 Ninety percent of those two documents are the 

13 same already. So, it is the perfect place to 

14 include that. 

15 But the thermal method is something 

16 that we disagree with wholeheartedly; that is 

17 not, in our experience, used in the United 

18 States. And the fact that it has a 

19 publication date of 1999, and since ANSI 

20 standards come under a five-year review, a 

21 ten-year cycle, I would suspect it is probably 

22 in withdrawn status. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Okay. 

2 John Cymbalsky? 

3 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thanks. John 

4 Cymbalsky, DOE. 

5 I just wanted to reiterate a little 

6 bit what Sarah said about representations of 

7 your products with respect to efficiency. 

8 When you are developing this test method, and 

9 as we develop ours, I just want to make it 

10 clear that any representation that you want to 

11 make with respect to the efficiency metrics in 

12 the DOE standard must use the DOE test 

13 procedure. So, keep this in mind as you are 

14 developing your test methods. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, okay. 

16 So, other comments related to 1-43? 

17 And then, we will proceed on down this comment 

18 box. 

19 (No response.) 

20 Okay. We are moving on, -44 and 

21 -45. 

22 (No response.) 
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1 Nothing additional? 

2 Did you want any additional 

3 queries? 

4 MS. WIDDER: I am looking forward 

5 to the HI submission of their revised test 

6 procedure. I don't think I have any 

7 additional specific comments at this point. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Then, we are 

9 moving on. 

10 MS. WIDDER: Okay. And this is 

11 consistent with what you heard this morning. 

12 DOE is considering an extended product 

13 approach that might consider the pump 

14 inclusive of the motor and VSD, a pumping 

15 system, in addition to or instead of the pump 

16 all by itself, if the pump is sold that way 

17 from the manufacturer. 

18 If that is the case, then I 

19 understand that HI is expanding Appendix G, 

20 which is the string test, to be more specific 

21 about how to determine the overall wire-to22 water efficiency metric that would be applied 
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1 to those pumps. That would account for the 

2 pump efficiency as well as the motor 

3 efficiency and the VSD efficiency. 

4 Some things to think about for that 

5 particular metric, and if we include VSDs, 

6 are, as we discussed this morning, the 

7 particular test points that would effectively 

8 and sufficiently capture the energy use of a 

9 pumping system with a VSD, such that it wasn't 

10 overly burdensome for the manufacturer 

11 producing that pump. 

12 That is really all I have to say 

13 about that. I think we have talked a lot 

14 about some of the issues associated with 

15 testing pumping systems, as well as pumps by 

16 themselves, and that it could be very 

17 burdensome for manufacturers if multiple tests 

18 are required. And so, making sure that those 

19 tests are streamlined and, as Alison mentioned 

20 earlier, perhaps developing a test that we 

21 could test a pumping system and capture the 

22 pump efficiency as well as the wire-to-water 
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1 efficiency on one stand in one test, and 

2 having those requirements all in the same test 

3 procedure, would be something that DOE is very 

4 interested in, if this extended product 

5 approach is considered. 

6 So, really, specific comments about 

7 that and particularly the burden associated 

8 with multiple test points and how much it 

9 costs to produce a test. The DOE, as you will 

10 hear about later on, really considers 

11 manufacturer burden in the test procedure as 

12 well as standards rulemaking. And so, data 

13 related to that will help us craft the 

14 proposal that will form the NOPR test 

15 procedure. So, I would put a request for that 

16 as well. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 

18 MR. FERNSTROM: So, Gary Fernstrom, 

19 the California Investor Owned Utilities. 

20 I would encourage DOE to consider 

21 for this particular category, pump plus motor 

22 plus VSD, an energy-efficiency approach 
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1 similar to what Mike was talking about earlier 

2 which would compare the amount of water 

3 pumped, the volume of water, to the electric 

4 energy required to pump that. 

5 And in order to do that, you have 

6 to take some system curve into consideration, 

7 and I would encourage DOE to investigate what 

8 might be typical system curves for some common 

9 pump applications. That approach is used in 

10 swimming pool pumps by the California Energy 

11 Commission and Energy Star. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Thank you. 

13 MS. WIDDER: Okay? 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

15 MS. WIDDER: The next slide is just 

16 related to test procedure accuracy. This is 

17 also a very important aspect of the test 

18 procedure. One of the most important parts of 

19 the test procedure, actually, is that the 

20 manufacturers, as well as DOE, can have 

21 confidence that this is an accurate and 

22 repeatable representation of the energy 
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1 efficiency of a particular product. And 

2 so, if DOE were to test that particular pump 

3 and a third-party lab were to test that 

4 particular pump and the manufacturer were to 

5 test that particular pump, everyone would get 

6 the same result. And so, that is something 

7 that we will definitely need to consider as we 

8 move forward with the test procedure 

9 rulemaking. 

10 I forgot the gentleman's name, but 

11 from HI who mentioned considering Grade 2 in 

12 the HI 14.6 DOE draft. That tolerance and 

13 uncertainty criteria, if that is something the 

14 industry is comfortable with, we can 

15 definitely base the uncertainty measurement 

16 and the tolerances that DOE adopts on 

17 something that already exists in the industry. 

18 And that would work well for everyone. But we 

19 need to make sure that gives DOE as well as 

20 the manufacturers the right level of certainty 

21 that we have a repeatable test. 

22 The Department, in their 
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1 investigation, understands that some smaller 

2 pumps, less than 10-kilowatt hours, can have 

3 higher uncertainty or higher variability in 

4 their measurement of efficiency. And that is 

5 something the DOE will have to consider when 

6 forming this test procedure. We could 

7 consider wider tolerances, which is currently 

8 what is in 14.6, on the particular rating or 

9 on some of the measurement criteria, or - DOE 

10 requires a certain number of products to be 

11 tested to form a certification for each 

12 product - And so, you could increase the 

13 number of products or pieces of equipment that 

14 were tested for a particular rating. 

15 And so, those are some of the 

16 things that we will be thinking about as we 

17 move forward in the test procedure rulemaking, 

18 and DOE encourages comments on those as well. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Neal? 

20 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE. 

21 Just looking back and remembering 

22 some of the challenges that we encountered 
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1 with the motor rules a decade-and-a-half ago 

2 in terms of reproducibility, I think it is 

3 going to be important for the testing 

4 community, the industry, and DOE to work 

5 together to do the reasonable round-robin 

6 testing, so that we actually have a sense of 

7 what is normal product variation, what is 

8 normal test variation facility-to-facility. 

9 Unfortunately, as you start 

10 combining pump testing with the motor and 

11 other associated components, as my colleague, 

12 Kitt Butler from Advanced Energy, can speak 

13 to, we have got a lot of variables, both from 

14 the test as well as in the product itself. 

15 So, I think to the extent the industry, DOE, 

16 and the testing community can come together to 

17 produce some kind of an understanding of what 

18 is natural variation, I think that would 

19 contribute substantially to making this work. 

20 I think for the Department to 

21 create unrealistic tolerances on the testing 

22 could potentially be a major problem. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

2 Okay. And perhaps 1-47 has been 

3 addressed already. 

4 Do you want to set up 1-48? 

5 MS. WIDDER: Sure. So, we did talk 

6 about DOE's Request for Comment on applicable 

7 test procedures for the complete motor 

8 package. DOE also requests comment on the 

9 accuracy of different measurement equipment. 

10 And I think the comment we just heard was 

11 answering that to some extent, about the 

12 different contributors to uncertainty in the 

13 test, both product variability as well as test 

14 variability. And we will certainly want to 

15 consider those and would love to work with 

16 industry to develop appropriate tolerances and 

17 uncertainty for pumps. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions 

19 or comments before we move on? 

20 Yes, Arnold? 

21 MR. SDANO: Arnold Sdano, Pentair, 

22 representing HI. 
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1 Most pump manufacturers that are 

2 members of HI are already performing the 

3 extended product tests for customers. 

4 Typically, it would be a wire-to-water, and it 

5 would include losses of the variable-speed 

6 drive and the motor and the pump itself. 

7 What we have learned is that we do 

8 have to upgrade some of our instrumentation, 

9 so that, particularly on power analyzers, the 

10 newer generation of power analyzers in front 

11 of the VFD are what is required in order to 

12 accurately measure that and to avoid the 

13 destruction that the VFD can cause to the 

14 power readings, if you attempt to measure them 

15 some other place. 

16 But it is really something 

17 manageable and within the scope of what most 

18 of the HI members are doing today. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

20 Yes, other thoughts on 1-48, the 

21 equipment needed, changes that might be made, 

22 et cetera? 
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1 Gary Fernstrom? 

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Following up on 

3 Pentair's comments, many of these VFDs are 

4 introduced on linear wave forms into the 

5 utility system. So, it would be important to 

6 measure their power and energy use with true 

7 RMS power-measuring equipment. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

9 MS. WIDDER: Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional thoughts? 

11 (No response.) 

12 We are a little bit behind. So, 

13 let me keep pressing us forward here. 

14 MS. WIDDER: All right. The next 

15 Request for Comment relates to the 

16 applicability of calculation methods. For 

17 some types of equipment, DOE has considered 

18 alternative methods of rating equipment or 

19 coming up with a certification for DOE that 

20 has to do with rating one representative piece 

21 of equipment, and then using that rating, that 

22 tested piece of equipment, to extrapolate 
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1 ratings for other similar types of equipment 

2 if there is appropriate calculation methods 

3 that can be applied. There is an appendix in 

4 14.6 that does address this somewhat for pumps 

5 that have similar geometric and kinematic 

6 characteristics. 

7 And so, DOE is requesting on 

8 comment on the applicability of that appendix 

9 or any other calculation methods to 

10 establishing reliable ratings for pumps or if 

11 testing every piece of equipment, every basic 

12 model is the right approach. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold? 

14 MR. SDANO: One of the things we 

15 have done in this draft of 14.6 DOE is we have 

16 extracted the model test section that I 

17 believe you might have been referring to. 

18 However, we do believe that the calculation 

19 methods are mostly appropriate. Generally, 

20 what we do as pump manufacturers, and we have 

21 somewhat of a luxury over perhaps the motor 

22 manufacturers, of what they have experienced, 
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1 in that we are producing product basically off 

2 of patterns that pretty much define the 

3 geometry of a particular pump. And so, we 

4 will test a particular pump in the development 

5 stage, go back and modify the patterns, if 

6 required, and retest it until we get 

7 through -- and my company refers to it as a 

8 PPAP process or the first article inspection. 

9 Once we get it passed, that is kind 

10 of locked down, and we really only need that 

11 one sample pump to base our curves on that we 

12 go to the market with. And that is typical 

13 throughout the pump industry. But I might 

14 only test a three-stage turbine, knowing how I 

15 would extrapolate it for a one-stage up 

16 through a nine-stage. And so, you know, I am 

17 using that basis of that test and 

18 extrapolating it using our calculation method. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

20 MS. WIDDER: Thank you. 

21 If any other pump manufacturers - 

22 maybe not now, but in their written comments - 
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1 have similar experiences, and DOE would also 

2 be interested in any sacrifices of accuracy 

3 that a calculation method would be incurring. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: From Arnold's 

5 comment, I wasn't sure -- your company does it 

6 one way, or is it fairly uniform? 

7 MR. SDANO: I don't know of any 

8 variations from company-to-company. I believe 

9 we use very similar processes. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: I just thought I 

11 would inquire. Okay. 

12 MS. WIDDER: Okay. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Good. 

14 MS. WIDDER: The last Request for 

15 Comment is on the number of unique pump models 

16 manufacturers would have to test. And this 

17 could be with or without the calculation 

18 method that we have just described, since we 

19 are interested in the ability of that 

20 calculation method to reduce test burden, and 

21 what the burden would be without that 

22 calculation method. 
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1 We are also interested in, when we 

2 talk about overall wire-to-water tests, the 

3 additional burden that might be required at 

4 additional test points, and any comment 

5 related to that burden is welcome. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold? 

7 MR. SDANO: So, just to repeat, 

8 some of the pump manufacturers are going to 

9 upgrade their instrumentation to do the 

10 extended product approach, and that you need a 

11 higher-quality power analyzer upfront. 

12 Yes, there probably are additional 

13 points. We find that frequently on extended 

14 product approach right now, where customers 

15 insist on multiple points at different speeds, 

16 but it is not an undue burden. It is 

17 something that we face every day. It is an 

18 everyday occurrence already for us. 

19 MS. WIDDER: So, just to clarify, 

20 that is not really an incremental burden? It 

21 is something that is common in the industry, 

22 although it is I don't believe normative in 
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1 the standard right now? 

2 MR. SDANO: That is correct. 

3 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Thank you. 

4 One other quick question, add-on on 

5 the burden question. We talked previously 

6 about tolerances, and the DOE understands that 

7 additional, tighter tolerances would increase 

8 burden. You would need more precise 

9 measurement equipment and could require more 

10 tests. And so, how different levels of 

11 certainty or uncertainty in the test relate to 

12 burden is also very helpful. 

13 So, for example, in HI 14.6, if we 

14 were to move to, say, a Grade 1 tolerance 

15 versus a Grade 2 tolerance, or down to a Grade 

16 3 tolerance, what does that do for the cost of 

17 testing, the burden of testing, from a 

18 manufacturer's perspective, so we can make an 

19 informed decision about what the right 

20 tolerance level is? 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold? 

22 MR. SDANO: Right now, since HI, as 
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1 members, we test to 14.6, our customers come 

2 in and audit us against 14.6, and 14.6 defines 

3 the requirements. When you get in excess of 

4 200 horsepower, you are going to be to a Grade 

5 1 already. Those pump manufacturers that make 

6 that equipment of the higher energy levels, we 

7 already have the instrumentation that complies 

8 with that. 

9 And on the other hand, if it is an 

10 ANSI-pump manufacturer and generally lower 

11 horsepowers, you know, they might have much of 

12 their product shipping as a Grade 3. And so, 

13 it would have to be an upgrade to meet what we 

14 are proposing for the 14.6 DOE. 

15 But the bulk of the manufacturers 

16 fitting within the scope as suggested, that 

17 the Grade 2 and 2(b) acceptance levels would 

18 fit right in with what we do daily. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

20 MS. WIDDER: Thank you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 

22 on this stream of content? 
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1 (No response.) 

2 Okay. 

3 MS. WIDDER: Yes, I am done. So, 

4 now I think I am inviting Alison back to the 

5 podium to talk about, to introduce the 

6 subsequent rulemaking analyses that DOE will 

7 perform to set standard levels. 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Thanks, 

9 Sarah. 

10 So, whenever DOE does this 

11 rulemaking procedure, we go through several 

12 analyses that Charlie introduced briefly 

13 earlier. 

14 The first one, we undertake, as 

15 part of the preliminary analysis, is the 

16 market and technology assessment. The purpose 

17 of this is basically to characterize the pumps 

18 market and the measures to improve 

19 efficiencies. So, we look at manufacturers, 

20 shipments and trends, technologies that 

21 improve efficiency, and different regulatory 

22 and non-regulatory initiatives related to pump 
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1 efficiency. 

2 So, as just an overview of the 

3 manufacturers as far as what DOE understands 

4 right now, we believe there are 10 companies 

5 representing 60 to 70 percent of the total 

6 U.S. pump market, and that these companies 

7 represent approximately 70 brands or 

8 divisions. And we do have in the framework 

9 document a list of those major suppliers and 

10 their parent companies. 

11 We have also looked at the Census 

12 data for pumps that is available through 2010. 

13 We don't expect any further data to be 

14 available from the Census because they have 

15 discontinued that report. 

16 Pages 46 to 51 of the framework 

17 document, go through our attempted mapping of 

18 Census codes to product categories that we are 

19 looking at, allocations of exports and imports 

20 to the different product codes because the 

21 Census presents only very aggregated import 

22 and export data, and estimated percentage of 
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1 pumps in the Census shipments that are serving 

2 clean water. So, we will welcome comment on 

3 any of those estimates that we have in the 

4 framework document. 

5 And just as a bit of a market 

6 overview, the estimate is that 89 percent of 

7 shipments of the covered pumps that DOE is 

8 considering covering are end suction close 

9 coupled, but that is only 35 percent by value, 

10 which as a proxy for energy use might be 

11 significantly lower. 

12 And so, again, we are just 

13 requesting comments on the market assessment. 

14 We would like any information on pump 

15 features, efficiencies, trends in efficiency, 

16 historical shipments, and prices. Bookings 

17 data would also be important if shipments are 

18 not available. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

21 Edison Electric Institute. 

22 For pumps that are driven by 
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1 electric motors that are covered under DOE 

2 regulations already specifically talking about 

3 especially ones from 1 to 200 horsepower that 

4 already have had energy-efficient standards 

5 into EPACT '92, DOE is doing another 

6 rulemaking for those motors. I believe there 

7 was a joint recommendation from -- well, NEMA 

8 is not here and the advocates -- in terms of 

9 new standards that would go into effect in 

10 2015. 

11 Are you going to use that 

12 information to help with your assessment? Or 

13 have you included that in a preliminary 

14 assessment? 

15 MS. WILLIAMS: We can certainly 

16 look at that data that is available. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Mark? 

19 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for the 

20 Hydraulic Institute. 

21 Regarding 3.1, the specific 

22 information that you are asking for here, 
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1 Alison, you know, the Hydraulic Institute does 

2 not have that data. It really resides with 

3 each of our individual members. 

4 It would be a considerable 

5 undertaking to try to gather it. I think that 

6 is why you are asking for it, is because you 

7 have figured that out. 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: My understanding is 

9 that HI does have M10 booking data, though. 

10 MR. HANDZEL: So, understand that 

11 M10 bookings data is collected in sales 

12 dollars. 

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-hum. 

14 MR. HANDZEL: So there is no unit 

15 volume information. So, it is not going to 

16 give you complete information for what you 

17 want. 

18 MS. WILLIAMS: We accept proxy 

19 information also. 

20 (Laughter.) 

21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So, I think we 

22 will take that under advisement. In our 
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1 written response, we will evaluate including 

2 that information. Okay? So, that is 3.1. 

3 I have a response for 3.2. Are we 

4 ready to move on to that? 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

6 MR. HANDZEL: And, Alison, you have 

7 kind of already hit on some of this, but I 

8 will just say -- I have a written thing -- the 

9 Hydraulic Institute wishes to clarify that, 

10 historically, the U.S. Census data has not 

11 aligned with the ANSI/HI nomenclature 

12 descriptions. So, we cannot provide accurate 

13 input on this question. 

14 Furthermore, we want to point out 

15 that the U.S. Census data MA333 report was an 

16 estimate in the sense that they collected some 

17 data and, then, used load factors to increase 

18 the data to give an overall number. So, we 

19 have concerns about its accuracy. 

20 And then, lastly, you have already 

21 said the data hasn't been collected since 

22 2010, and it doesn't sound like it is going to 
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1 be collected again. So, we just really 

2 struggle with the data that is there. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: But would you be 

4 willing to characterize the accuracy of the 

5 Census data? 

6 MR. HANDZEL: I am not comfortable 

7 doing that. 

8 (Laughter.) 

9 We haven't talked about that as a 

10 group. So, I can't really give you an answer 

11 on that, though. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Neal? 

13 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE. 

14 I would also note that 2010 

15 shipments data was still with the depths of 

16 the Great Recession. And so, that data may 

17 not be reflective of overall market 

18 characteristics. So, it should be dealt with 

19 with a great deal of caution. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I just also wanted 

22 to comment on that. Some of the things we did 
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1 in the framework with the 2010 data in terms 

2 of disaggregation or allocation, if we get 

3 input on whether or not those were good, we 

4 can apply them to historical Census data as 

5 well. So, we don't plan to use only 2010. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Did they address 3.3 

7 fully, Alison? 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: It sounds like there 

9 is not really any information on it. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional 

11 on that? Okay. Let's go. 

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, in terms 

13 of the market assessment, one of the things 

14 that DOE does is develop equipment classes. 

15 Each equipment class is subject to its own 

16 standard. 

17 So, here, what we are looking at is 

18 equipment classes that DOE is considering. 

19 Right now, they are basically aligning 

20 directly with the equipment categories that 

21 you have seen before, although we do have a 

22 design speed addition on the right side. I am 
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1 going to get into design speed in a couple of 

2 more slides. 

3 So, just in terms of the equipment 

4 classes, the things that DOE can base them on 

5 is type of energy, capacity, and performance. 

6 We are not proposing to do type of energy at 

7 this point because pumps driven by engines are 

8 currently considered just to regulate the 

9 pumps themselves regardless of the fuel. 

10 Capacity we are not considering because we are 

11 considering the standard as a function of flow 

12 and specific speed, which would address that. 

13 So, we are only looking at performance-related 

14 features right now. 

15 In addition, there are comments 

16 about this. DOE understands that some of 

17 these equipment classes maybe could be 

18 aggregated together and some may need further 

19 disaggregation. So, we are interested in 

20 whether, for example, end suction close 

21 coupled and frame-mounted can be a single 

22 equipment class because the wet ends are often 
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1 identical. 

2 So, I will just move to the comment 

3 slide. We are interested in 3-4 about other 

4 performance-related features that maybe we 

5 haven't considered for equipment classes that 

6 should be in. And then, as well, in 3-5 or 

7 3-6, different disaggregations or aggregations 

8 that should potentially be made to these 

9 equipment classes. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Maybe you could 

11 return to the preceding slide. 

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

14 MR. SCHMITZ: Thank you. 

15 Along the lines of what you have 

16 heard previously, HI does not believe that DOE 

17 should pursue evaluating different equipment 

18 classes, and that we would support maintaining 

19 the originally-mentioned descriptions for pump 

20 types as it applies to the EU Directive. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just to clarify, 

22 you just mean that you only want those pump 
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1 types to be considered as equipment classes? 

2 MR. SCHMITZ: Correct. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Any other thoughts 

4 on aggregations, disaggregations, variations 

5 from what is presented in slide 78? 

6 John Cymbalsky? 

7 MR. CYMBALSKY: Maybe I am jumping 

8 ahead a little bit. But if DOE today were to 

9 just take the EU standard and the EU product 

10 classes and apply them as the standard, what 

11 percent do you think of the pumps out there 

12 now would fall off the market? Do we know 

13 that number? I may have asked this at one of 

14 our ex parte meetings. 

15 MR. NAPOLITANO: Let me take a 

16 shot. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

18 MR. NAPOLITANO: So, there are two 

19 separate questions there. One is, what scope 

20 of product by market volume -- I mean, it gets 

21 back to the market -- does the EU scope? The 

22 question of how many fall out is where you set 
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1 the MEI index. 

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: Right. 

3 MR. NAPOLITANO: So, the EU 

4 standard set initially of .1, which translates 

5 to the worst 10 percent of the current state 

6 snapshot dropout, and then, eventually, 

7 escalates over time to a .4, which means you 

8 are taking out the worst 40 percent 

9 performers. 

10 So, there are two things. One, 

11 scope, how many pumps are you capturing? And 

12 then, two, where do you set that MEI index? 

13 MR. CYMBALSKY: Okay. And do you 

14 think that the U.S. market is similar in 

15 stature to the EU market? 

16 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. The 

17 discussion that we had earlier -- and Greg 

18 will jump in -- around the MEI and the 

19 C-factor and the difference between the 

20 dataset that they used when they captured the 

21 current state of the market of products versus 

22 what we captured versus the 27,000 points 
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1 basically says you can get very close 

2 ultimately to that same current set of data, 

3 tweak the C-factor a little bit, and then, 

4 choose to set your MEI index, which, then, by 

5 definition, says whatever that dataset is, I 

6 am taking the worst 10 percent out, the next 

7 level, however you want to set that. And 

8 then, you could ultimately figured out tied to 

9 an energy saving. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, Greg. 

11 MR. CASE: Greg Case, PD-cubed, on 

12 behalf of HI. 

13 One of the things that we found 

14 when we first analyzed the EU methodology, and 

15 we took a small sample, kind of a straw poll 

16 of HI manufacturers, we found that we did get 

17 the 10 percent and the 40 percent dropout rate 

18 when we applied their C-factors to our data, 

19 that limited, very limited set of data. 

20 And the reason that that happened 

21 was we did it as an aggregate. We looked at 

22 all the different pump types. And when we 
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1 bring them together, yes, we got a 10 percent 

2 and a 40 percent dropout rate, just like they 

3 did. 

4 When we went and got the larger set 

5 of data that we are going to supply to the 

6 DOE, and we looked at by equipment class, we 

7 got much different fallout rates than they 

8 did. And so, adjusting, as Ken was saying, 

9 adjusting that C-factor allowed us to get the 

10 40 percent and the 10 percent dropout rates, 

11 just like they did, with the adjusted 

12 C-factor. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Got it. 

14 MR. CASE: Now, as an aggregate, 

15 you would probably get close to the 10 and the 

16 40 percent. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Did we get 

18 3-7? 

19 MS. WILLIAMS: No. So, 3-7, we are 

20 interested in specific equipment classes that 

21 would always be used in variable load 

22 applications. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, please? 

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, on 

3 behalf of the Hydraulic Institute. 

4 Again, we just wanted to clarify 

5 that the equipment class does not determine 

6 whether or not a pump can be used in variable 

7 load applications. Really, the application is 

8 what defines this, and there is no other way 

9 to explain it. That is just the way it is. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: The industry 

11 representatives seem aligned on this point. 

12 It is okay to have a counterpoint here in this 

13 room, if anybody has one. 

14 (Laughter.) 

15 (No response.) 

16 Okay. We are moving on. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, to move 

18 on to whether or not design speed should be 

19 included as a differentiator of equipment 

20 classes, just to note that the EU regulation 

21 does contain separate efficiency standards for 

22 pumps operating with two-pole and four-pole 
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1 motors. 

2 Our understanding is that this 

3 captures a size effect in which a larger pump 

4 running at lower speeds is more efficient than 

5 a smaller pump at higher speeds. However, the 

6 implication of setting these two different 

7 standards results in different predicted 

8 efficiency for the same pump running at 

9 multiple speeds. 

10 So, DOE is interested in a possible 

11 result of this on market shift or other issues 

12 and wants to make sure that the way the 

13 efficiency equations and standards are set is 

14 appropriate for pumps running at different 

15 speeds. 

16 And regardless of whether DOE sets 

17 equipment classes based on a design speed, 

18 there has to be some determination of what 

19 speed is used for testing and compliance. It 

20 might be difficult to select a single speed 

21 for testing because of variation in each 

22 equipment class. Another possibility would be 
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1 to require calculating minimum efficiency at 

2 multiple speeds and, then, requiring 

3 compliance at one of those speeds, such as the 

4 one with the greatest efficiency requirement 

5 or the lowest efficiency requirement or the 

6 most stringent one. 

7 So, again, we just want to request 

8 comment on various issues related to this 

9 design speed problem. There's a whole bunch 

10 of pages in the framework document that gets 

11 into a lot more detail about this that we 

12 don't have time to get into right now. 

13 But one of them relates to whether 

14 or not it is better to use Reynolds number 

15 instead of flow for setting these standards. 

16 And again, in 3-9, I already mentioned we are 

17 interested in what method of surface-fitting 

18 provides the most appropriate predicted or the 

19 minimum efficiency for different pumps. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold? 

21 MR. SDANO: ANSI/HI 20.3 2009, 

22 efficiency prediction method, that is a 
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1 standard we have. I have chaired that 

2 Committee. What we did is we brought all the 

3 information we could find in the industry 

4 together of how do you predict pump efficiency 

5 when we drafted that standard. We went out 

6 and polled our members and came up with their 

7 efficiency based on equipment class and 

8 divided it up that way. 

9 And one of the problems that we saw 

10 with using the Reynolds number, or 

11 particularly that was extracted from HH 

12 Anderson, was that it doesn't reflect the 

13 significant change in design when you go from 

14 a pure radial volute-type pump to a vertical 

15 turbine-type pump, where it becomes a mixed 

16 flow. And so, instead of a single hump on 

17 efficiency at about 2500 U.S. Units specific 

18 speed, in fact, our data showed that we had a 

19 two-humped camel, and it was based on a change 

20 in design when you got into mixed flow and 

21 reflected the difference between volute and a 

22 diffuser-type pump. 
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1 And so, we recommend going out, and 

2 that is what we are collecting data, and based 

3 on different pump types, is it a more 

4 appropriate method if we would look towards 

5 the 20.3? You can see the way we ended up 

6 there, and we think that is much more 

7 appropriate. 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So, in terms of 

9 20.3, as I recall, that is just flow and 

10 specific speed correction, and doesn't correct 

11 separately for design speed, as the EU does? 

12 MR. SDANO: No, in 14.6, in the 

13 model section we have already talked about, 

14 though, there is a Reynolds number scale-up, 

15 but that variation is just minute in 

16 comparison to the change in the pump type. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, is HI 

18 proposing to use those design speed equipment 

19 classes the way that EU did or no? 

20 MR. SDANO: Yes. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes? Okay. So, you 

22 are proposing -- I mean, I know you don't like 
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1 to use equipment categories. 

2 MR. SDANO: With different 

3 C-factors for different types of pumps. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: But you -- 

5 MR. SDANO: Yes. 

6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- agree with having 

7 the different -- 

8 MR. SDANO: That is correct. 

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And so, in 

10 the next comment related to that, we are 

11 interested in how testing occurs in the EU. 

12 You know, if you have a single-pump model that 

13 is offered at multiple speeds, what speed do 

14 the manufacturers determine to test it at, and 

15 any other of these comments related to the 

16 speed issue? 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 

18 MR. CASE: To go back to 3-9, 

19 because we do advocate at HI -- Greg Case, 

20 Hydraulic Institute -- we do advocate that we 

21 would support the different speeds in the 

22 testing. Okay? Because we have found that 
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1 there are significant data differences between 

2 the two, just as you did in your comments. 

3 There are also things that we do 

4 design-wise to the impeller to be able to -- 

5 or to the pump itself, things like that, with 

6 the larger or higher-speed equipment. So, on 

7 the efficiency, balance holes, things like 

8 that that we might do. 

9 Moving on to the 3-10, we do 

10 believe that you should be using separate 

11 equations for the multiple speed. 

12 MS. WILLIAMS: And so, then, if you 

13 have a pump model offered at multiple speeds, 

14 in the EU are people testing at both speeds? 

15 MR. CASE: Yes. And it would have 

16 different C-factors based on those two tests. 

17 Again, you may sell a pump at four-pole speed 

18 and, actually, modify that pump slightly to 

19 run at two-pole speed, based on thrust 

20 balancing and things like that. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 
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1 EEI. 

2 Just again, this is a quick follow3 up. Then, would that mean that you would have 

4 to test the same pump at multiple speeds and, 

5 then, at three BEP conditions? Or are there 

6 some calculations in there? 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 

8 MR. CASE: You would have two BEPs 

9 that you test at but three points on the 

10 curve. Most of our testing actually happens 

11 on multiple points on the curve, possibly 

12 seven or more, when we are running these 

13 tests. But we would test at the 75, 110, and 

14 the BEP for both speeds, correct. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to set 

16 up -- do you have follow-on? I like your 

17 questioning. It is good. 

18 MS. WILLIAMS: No, I think that -- 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Did we get 3-11, 

20 -12, and -13 yet? 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: They are kind of all 

22 related. So, it sounds like the answer to -12 
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1 and -13 -- 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And I think they 

3 talked about testing and compliance burden, at 

4 least globally. 

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And then, is there 

7 any other specific query you want to put out 

8 there, based on this comment box? 

9 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't have any. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. No additional 

11 comments? We are moving on. 

12 Greg? 

13 MR. CASE: We would, again, the 

14 testing would be done at nominal speeds, not 

15 some intermediate speed. So, we would say 

16 two-pole and four-pole nominal speeds at 60 

17 hertz. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sixty? Okay. 

19 MS. WILLIAMS: All right. And just 

20 to clarify something I didn't say earlier, the 

21 DOE has not yet determined how many speeds or 

22 poles it is covering. So, if it decides to 
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1 cover more speeds, then this would actually 

2 break down into additional speeds for six-pole 

3 and eight-pole motors, for example. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna? 

5 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. 

6 I just want to make sure I 

7 understand kind of the questions. Is this 

8 about that in some cases the same physical 

9 pump can be operated at different speeds? And 

10 so, that pump could fall into different, the 

11 same pump could fall into more than one 

12 equipment class? 

13 MR. LLENZA: The usage of the pump 

14 could be more than just one application. That 

15 is what I think. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Charles. 

17 Albert, do you want to take that 

18 one? 

19 MR. HUBER: Yes. I mean, you can, 

20 but the efficiency is going to be different. 

21 And therefore, we would test at all speeds 

22 that we were going to be held to. That is 
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1 what we do today. 

2 MS. MAUER: So, the same pump might 

3 be tested at different speeds and certified at 

4 different speeds as meeting standards that 

5 apply to -- 

6 MR. HUBER: Yes, for that speed, 

7 yes. 

8 MS. MAUER: -- different product 

9 classes? 

10 MR. HUBER: Yes. For that speed, 

11 yes. 

12 I don't really know how you would 

13 have your product classes, whether you would 

14 break it down by speed or you would just have 

15 the class and, then, show the different 

16 speeds. I really don't know. 

17 MR. LLENZA: This is Charles 

18 Llenza, Department of Energy. 

19 So, for a pump that is tested at 

20 different speeds, would you give it a nominal 

21 rating or an average rating for efficiency 

22 or -- 
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1 MR. NAPOLITANO: Well, you would 

2 just have a rating specific to each of the 

3 primary speeds that that pump would typically 

4 run. So, if you looked in any manufacturer's 

5 performance data, catalog of pump curves, you 

6 would see a given size pump and you would see 

7 a performance curve at two-pole speed and at 

8 four-pole speed and maybe at six-pole speed, 

9 because not only is the head and flow 

10 different, but the efficiency characteristics 

11 are slightly different at those different 

12 speeds, enough to warrant taking the data and 

13 publishing it at its different speeds. 

14 So, whether that means that it is a 

15 different equipment class I guess ultimately 

16 depends on how the equipment classes are 

17 defined and whether the exact same pump runs 

18 at two different speeds. It is two classes. 

19 If it is, then the answer is yes, and if it 

20 isn't, the answer is no. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. Yes. 

22 Gary Fernstrom? 
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, where this 

2 plays out is with the variable-speed pump 

3 motor and controller. So, you know, you would 

4 want to have information reported at different 

5 speeds that this equipment would likely be run 

6 at. And again, my frame of reference goes 

7 back to the swimming pool pumps where we 

8 specify different speeds -- high speed, half 

9 speed, low speed, and best efficiency speed -- 

10 that we would like to see the efficiency rated 

11 at. But it may different for this 

12 application. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken, please, yes. 

14 MR. NAPOLITANO: Okay. Gary, so in 

15 the case of a variable-speed drive, and what 

16 we have talked about is an extended product, 

17 the approach that we are proposing, 

18 essentially, goes after wire-to-water, right? 

19 It says I am going to apply a load profile to 

20 this integrated pump motor drive, and I am 

21 going to measure for how much output I get, 

22 how much energy input am I consuming. And 
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1 that takes all of the variables into account. 

2 So, if, for example, the pump 

3 hydraulic efficiency at a lower speeds is 

4 slightly different than it is at the same 

5 point at a higher speed, that all comes out in 

6 the wash with the wire-to-water, because you 

7 are, then, basically, what are you putting in 

8 and what are you getting out, and everything 

9 in between is the aggregated efficiency. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest? 

11 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant. 

12 I understand what you are saying. 

13 But the benefit of having different 

14 efficiencies published at different ratings, 

15 you know, different loads, is that we can, 

16 then, use that to evaluate the economics on a 

17 client that may have a different load profile 

18 than the test load profile. 

19 So, integrating everything into a 

20 single metric and reporting just that metric 

21 wouldn't give us the information we need to 

22 see if it is cost-effective on a single-speed 
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1 customer or, you know, someone very different 

2 low profile. I don't know if that is what you 

3 are going at, Gary. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

5 MR. NAPOLITANO: Well, first of 

6 all, we would agree with that. We are already 

7 saying that we do today publish the efficiency 

8 at multiple speeds -- 

9 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 

10 MR. NAPOLITANO: -- and in some 

11 cases, even a variable-speed version of that 

12 curve that gives gradations in between the 

13 nominal motor speeds. 

14 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 

15 MR. NAPOLITANO: So, I think we 

16 have -- 

17 MR. RIVEST: Okay. I was just 

18 concerned that you were collapsing everything 

19 and reporting just that one -- 

20 MR. NAPOLITANO: No, just the point 

21 that, when you ultimately did the wire-and22 water test -- 
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1 MR. RIVEST: Yes. 

2 MR. NAPOLITANO: -- it was taking 

3 all of those components into account. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 

5 MR. FERNSTROM: I will pass. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Have we 

7 covered this? 

8 MS. WILLIAMS: I think we have. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's go on. 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, when DOE 

11 performs its engineering analysis that we will 

12 talk about next, sometimes DOE does not 

13 analyze all of the equipment classes 

14 separately. So, one thing that DOE can do is 

15 select some representative classes that 

16 results can be used to extrapolate to the 

17 other classes. 

18 So, just in terms of analysis, the 

19 things that DOE has identified that could 

20 possibly be combined are end suction close 

21 coupled and frame-mounted pumps and possibly 

22 vertical turbine and submersible pumps, 
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1 depending on the metric chosen for those. 

2 Within the representative classes, 

3 DOE traditionally selects representative units 

4 to analyze as a basis to determine the 

5 incremental costs associated with increases in 

6 efficiency. So, in general, these are units 

7 that are functionally equivalent in all 

8 aspects except efficiency. So, a lot of 

9 times, for example, for motors, you will look 

10 at the same motor at standard and premium 

11 efficiency. 

12 For pumps, what we think would 

13 happen is we would have to find pumps with 

14 approximately the same BEP flow and specific 

15 speed, but with different efficiency levels. 

16 And we understand that these may be a little 

17 more difficult to find than traditional 

18 products because the same manufacturer will 

19 not necessarily offer multiple pumps at the 

20 same BEP because they are covering a wide area 

21 of duty points. 

22 So, then, once DOE selects these 
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1 representative units, and again, scale the 

2 results from the analysis to the full range of 

3 flow and specific speeds within the equipment 

4 class, efficiency results could possibly be 

5 scaled with some of the 3D figures that we 

6 have looked at now, but DOE also has to 

7 determine ways to scale the cost. 

8 So, I have some Requests for 

9 Comments here. And actually, thinking about 

10 it, some of these might be best answered after 

11 we have gone a little farther. But, in case 

12 someone has a comment right now, we are 

13 basically seeking information on whether there 

14 is any representative classes that could be 

15 grouped together and what representative units 

16 would be most appropriate. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

19 EEI. 

20 And I will use my experience with 

21 the transformers. You know, I don't mind the 

22 concept of this. I just know that sometimes 
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1 when you have too wide of a swathe, you get 

2 some very interesting results because of the 

3 representative class is too large. And I will 

4 just say for like the transformers, for 

5 certain types of transformers, you were going 

6 anywhere from 10 KVA to 333 KVA in terms of 

7 capacity. And, yes, they were the same design 

8 line, but they are different products when you 

9 get right down to it. They are doing the same 

10 function, but because of their size and 

11 because of some of their application, they 

12 could be significantly different products. 

13 And the fact that, again, the 

14 current scope is anywhere from 1 to 200 

15 horsepower, again, you are talking about, I 

16 will say, physically small to very large. And 

17 then, when you put in the variable-speed 

18 drives on top of that, again, I am just 

19 thinking that, then, there is probably, from 1 

20 to 200 horsepower, that is at least 20 

21 different motor sizes at least right there 

22 within each class of product here. 
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1 So, I like the idea, but I think 

2 there has to be real care, especially in terms 

3 of either motor horsepower that is serving or 

4 engine -- excuse me -- steam or diesel engine 

5 or electric motor, the size of the motor or 

6 engine that is serving the product as well as 

7 just physical size and possibly the 

8 application, just because of the fact, you 

9 know, just in terms of cost and, then, 

10 actually, in terms of some of the loading, 

11 there is going to be such a variation. You 

12 might be making, when you get right down to 

13 it, there could be, you know, 50 products 

14 being analyzed here. And that is before you 

15 get to the motor horsepower from the 1 to 200 

16 horsepower. 

17 So, I like the idea, but I think 

18 there is going to be some pretty small ranges 

19 of representative classes to get better 

20 accuracy in terms of results. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnold? 
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1 MR. SDANO: Frankly, I am kind of 

2 at a loss to understand why you would select 

3 one specific speed and one flow for that 

4 analysis. A pump type is going to have a 

5 significant impact on what efficiency you get. 

6 Basically, you are only confirming 

7 one point on that entire 3D curve that 

8 Europump came up with for their MEI. And I 

9 don't know how you would extrapolate that from 

10 that point. 

11 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest, Navigant 

12 Consulting. 

13 Can you put up the figure with the 

14 dots and the lines? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Which one? 

16 MR. RIVEST: I think I saw one. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: There? 

18 MR. RIVEST: Right. 

19 So, this would represent all the 

20 pumps in a particular product class. And what 

21 makes a product class is that every pump 

22 within that class would have to meet the same 
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1 efficiency equation. 

2 And earlier, there was a 

3 description of how the EU set the standard, so 

4 that that first standard line would eliminate 

5 from the market 10 percent of the pumps, so 10 

6 percent of the dots, and then, with an intent 

7 of eliminating 40 percent of the dots 

8 eventually. 

9 If you were aggregating too many 

10 product classes, too many types of pumps that 

11 really should not be in the same product 

12 class, as you lift that standard from 10 to 

13 40, you would notice that certain types of 

14 pumps are disappearing completely. What that 

15 would mean is that you really haven't 

16 established the product classes correctly. If 

17 they were established correctly, all of the 

18 pump types, part of that class would be 

19 eliminated at the same rate. So, that is one 

20 way of thinking of what we are trying to do 

21 with the class, just not separate things up 

22 too much, but, then, not aggregate them so 
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1 much that, by raising the bar, we are 

2 eliminating certain types of pumps. 

3 Then, the idea of a representative 

4 unit is, what we are trying to do is determine 

5 the cost-effectiveness to the consumer of 

6 raising that curve from baseline, say zero, to 

7 10 or to 40. And what we do is we try to 

8 purchase a pump at 40 that is on that line of 

9 40 percent and one that is at the bottom at 

10 zero and say, okay, what design features are 

11 incorporated in the better pump, and how much 

12 does it cost to get there? 

13 And to do that tradeoff analysis 

14 between the incremental cost of that pump and 

15 the economics, and the payback to the 

16 consumer. Of course, we can't do that for 

17 every pump here. So, we try to pick on that 

18 locus of points -- can you put that back 

19 there? -- where is the highest density of 

20 bumps, if you will, and the flow there 

21 being -- say you were to take your 

22 representative units at 600 gallons per minute 
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1 and base your analysis on the economics of 

2 that type of pump. So, we would look at the 

3 cost of zero, the red line, the cost of the 

4 blue line, do the economics on that, and then, 

5 from that representative unit, make a 

6 conclusion about the cost-effectiveness of 

7 going to 40 percent. 

8 If we are using a representative 

9 unit, the representative pump as being that 

10 one, we would, then, extend our conclusion to 

11 all the pumps on this graph and say, well, if 

12 it is cost-effective for the 600 to go to 40 

13 percent, we are going to go to 40 percent on 

14 everything else. 

15 If you know something about how 

16 these costs scale, you may say, "That's just 

17 not right because it is cost-effective to go 

18 to 40 percent at one size, but not at 

19 another." We may decide to break that down 

20 into three segments, look at a 200, a 600, and 

21 a 1200, and then, set the cost-effective level 

22 using the economics of each of those 
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1 separately. So, that is what a representative 

2 unit would be. That is how we would use it. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Albert? 

4 MR. HUBER: Albert Huber from HI. 

5 Just so there is no 

6 misunderstanding about the MEI that Europe is 

7 using, what they are endeavoring to do is they 

8 look at the market as a whole. And because 

9 none of our BEPs are always the same flow for 

10 any product class, that is another difficulty 

11 you have with pumps. Not everybody's BEP for 

12 a certain size pump is at 500 gallons, for 

13 instance. It could be 450; it could be 550. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm sorry, the BEP 

15 was what again? 

16 MR. HUBER: The Best Efficiency 

17 Point. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

19 MR. HUBER: So, what it does is you 

20 take a full diameter impeller for a particular 

21 class of pump -- and Greg can correct me if I 

22 am wrong -- but you take it, and you take the 
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1 BEP, you take 75 percent, and you take the 110 

2 percent. And then, you measure the total 

3 population. Everybody in the marketplace 

4 submits; in this case, the HI did and we are 

5 going to turn this data over to you. We all 

6 did that. We turned in our best efficiency at 

7 full diameter for each class, for the classes 

8 and scope that we have provided. That is 

9 already done. 

10 MR. RIVEST: So, you know how the 

11 word "class" keeps coming back. 

12 MR. HUBER: Okay. 

13 MR. RIVEST: And I just don't know 

14 whether we are all using "class" the same way. 

15 When you all submitted your data, 

16 this was cost and efficiency data or -- 

17 MR. HUBER: No, no, no. We do have 

18 cost data. 

19 MR. RIVEST: Okay. So, you sort of 

20 wrote down the spec of the pump you were all 

21 costing? 

22 MR. HUBER: Right. We took it 
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1 all -- 

2 MR. RIVEST: That is a 

3 representative unit? 

4 MR. HUBER: Yes. We took it off 

5 the HI nomenclature. We said you submit this 

6 pump. 

7 MR. RIVEST: Right. 

8 MR. HUBER: You submit it at full 

9 diameter. You submit it -- 

10 MR. RIVEST: By flow rate? 

11 MR. HUBER: No. 

12 MR. RIVEST: No? 

13 MR. HUBER: No. It is not a flow 

14 rate, is it? There is a flow rate in there, 

15 but your BEP may not be at the same point. 

16 MR. RIVEST: Right. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, come on. 

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I jump in here? 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So, I think we are 

21 talking about a couple of different things. 

22 So, when we are looking -- I am actually going 
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1 to go a couple more slides, I think. 

2 What Mike was saying was that we 

3 are looking to determine the cost differential 

4 of increasing efficiency for pumps that are 

5 very similar. And for that, that is what we 

6 traditionally do; we use those rep units for. 

7 It would not take away from I think 

8 what you are talking about, where you are 

9 collecting pumps of the same type, whatever 

10 size they are, and comparing them to the 

11 minimum efficiency equation to get the MEI. 

12 That would still happen. We are just looking 

13 for ways to isolate determining the cost of 

14 that increased efficiency. Traditionally, DOE 

15 does this by choosing representative units 

16 that can, then, scale those costs to a 

17 different unit. 

18 MR. RIVEST: So, we can scale the 

19 cost, but we don't have to scale the cost. We 

20 can just agree that the standard level -- so, 

21 once you have represented the population with 

22 the dots and, then, you have run your lines 
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1 and your equations that fit those dots, we 

2 need to determine which line we are going to 

3 take as a standard. 

4 So, we just have to agree what 

5 pump, you know, what segments, what cross6 section of those lines of the analysis for the 

7 cost-effectiveness is going to be based. Once 

8 it is determined it is 40 percent, the 40 

9 percent line is what sets the standard to 

10 everything. So, we don't have to scale. You 

11 know, we don't have to look at any other 

12 pumps. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks, Mike. 

14 Now to Ken. 

15 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano. 

16 So, going back to your original 

17 point in this string, which was that we have 

18 to get the breakdown of classifications 

19 balanced correctly, so that you don't penalize 

20 one style of pump versus -- we completely 

21 agree with that. That is absolutely dead-on 

22 right. 
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1 What that actually shakes out as, 

2 you know, and there is an equation for 

3 different styles of pumps and how fine do you 

4 break it down or not and the tradeoffs with 

5 that, you are absolutely right. 

6 I don't know if we know, sitting 

7 here today, for the purposes of this other 

8 discussion, which is understanding the 

9 incremental cost to go from 10 to 20 or 20 to 

10 40, or whatever, whether or not inside of a 

11 particular class, however you end up defining 

12 that, picking one representative point and 

13 comparing the 10 to the 40 of that same 

14 representative unit can be extrapolated to all 

15 extremes and be accurate. I don't think we 

16 know that. 

17 That is something we would probably 

18 have to go back and take a look at and, to 

19 your point say, is one close enough or do you 

20 want to do one at the low end, one at the high 

21 end, because of how costs change with size, or 

22 do you need to look at a couple? I don't 
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1 think we know the answer to that that I am 

2 aware of. 

3 Greg, do you have -- 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, use the 

5 microphone, if you are going to respond. 

6 MR. CASE: I am just wondering if I 

7 should respond. 

8 (Laughter.) 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Albert? And then, 

10 to Greg, and back to Mike. 

11 MR. HUBER: What we did to try to 

12 come up with some idea of what it would cost 

13 to redesign, we did a study and it was 

14 independently surveyed, which we intend to 

15 turn over to the DOE. We said this is the 

16 cost of taking a pump -- I think we said, we 

17 told our people we wanted to go to 40. So, 

18 this is what it is going to take. The MEI, we 

19 all knew what we were talking about for each 

20 class. 

21 MR. NAPOLITANO: Just remember 

22 there are two costs, the cost of redesign and 
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1 the cost to the consumer. 

2 MR. HUBER: That is true. 

3 MR. NAPOLITANO: And I believe you 

4 were programming -- 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Repeat that into the 

6 record, Albert. Or, Ken, go ahead, Ken. 

7 MR. NAPOLITANO: I just want to 

8 make sure we are clarifying, and both are 

9 probably relevant, but they are different. 

10 All right. There are two costs to consider in 

11 how much does it cost to go from 10 to 40. 

12 One is the cost to the industry, and the other 

13 is the cost to the consumer. We have captured 

14 one, and not necessarily the other. 

15 MR. HUBER: That is correct. 

16 MR. RIVEST: They are both separate 

17 considerations. 

18 MR. HUBER: Right. And we did it 

19 by horsepower. So, that gave us size. 

20 MR. RIVEST: You did it by 

21 horsepower. So, we will see how that maps to 

22 -- they are probably pretty close, right? 
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1 MR. HUBER: It is probably pretty 

2 close. 

3 MR. RIVEST: Okay. 

4 MR. HUBER: And, you know, we 

5 intend to turn that over. The larger you got 

6 in the pump, the more it costs. 

7 MR. RIVEST: And Steve started this 

8 conversation by saying, "Well, be careful you 

9 don't aggregate too much," because transformer 

10 standards were set in a very similar fashion. 

11 So, our scale there goes from like 25 to 1500, 

12 and we split it into three segments. There 

13 were some thought that maybe we should have 

14 split into more segments. Because as you do 

15 the economics on the 25, the 500, and the 

16 1500, to determine if the whole equation is 

17 cost-justified, we weigh the results of the 

18 economic analysis. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, do you want to 

20 add on? 

21 MR. CASE: No. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: No, not at this 
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1 point? 

2 Did we cover it? 

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I just want to 

4 say, yes, in the interest of moving on, as I 

5 said, what I have been talking about is DOE's 

6 traditional approach, and we are certainly 

7 open to methods of getting cost increase data 

8 from the industry. And I think we will work 

9 with you moving forward on that. 

10 So, to move on, baseline models, I 

11 really want to talk about efficiency levels, 

12 as Mike started. So, what we want to start 

13 with is the baseline level, what is basically 

14 the lowest efficiency, the most typical pump 

15 on the market right now? 

16 In other rulemakings, it is often 

17 the current federal standard, but there isn't 

18 one for pumps. So, DOE is considering the 

19 appropriate method to develop those levels. 

20 This is a 2D slice that you have 

21 seen before. The red line on the bottom is 

22 the bottom of market. So, if you take the 
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1 whole 3D space and put a surface to the very 

2 lowest pumps across the 3D space, you get that 

3 line. What you see happens is that in certain 

4 areas there are no pumps that are actually at 

5 that baseline level. 

6 So, to solve that problem, there 

7 are a couple of things we have thought of that 

8 we can do, one of which is to make a 

9 discontinuous surface, if that works. But the 

10 other one is to raise the level of the bottom 

11 of the market to create a baseline that 

12 represents least-efficient, most-typical pumps 

13 across the flow and specific speed. So, you 

14 can see the example in this slice where that 

15 line goes through many more pumps. 

16 So, DOE is still exploring options 

17 for how it would set baseline levels in this 

18 case. And again, it is designed to represent 

19 the same level across all the flows and 

20 specific speeds. 

21 So, similarly, DOE looks at 

22 efficiency levels from the baseline through 
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1 the max-tech level. Max-tech does not 

2 necessarily have to be available on the market 

3 right now. It could be involved in a working 

4 prototype. Sometimes it is the market 

5 maximum. So, you may have pumps on the market 

6 right now that are basically the highest it 

7 can go. 

8 And then, DOE looks at the design 

9 options and costs associated with getting to 

10 each of the levels it selects from baseline to 

11 max-tech, which is similar to the EU's 

12 different MEI levels. 

13 So, DOE is also looking at how to 

14 define max-tech, in this case, based on market 

15 maximums. And the same problem with the 

16 baseline level; if you set it based on the 

17 whole 3D space, you end up with a lot of 

18 spaces that don't have pumps there. And this 

19 could be problematic. If you choose where 

20 there is a pump, it may not represent the same 

21 level of cost across these spaces where there 

22 aren't any pumps. 
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1 So, again, the options are 

2 discontinuous functions or lowering the market 

3 max level to something that crosses a lot more 

4 pumps across the space, which is essentially 

5 treating some of these other ones as outliers. 

6 The DOE seeks comment on how the 

7 baseline level and the efficiency level, 

8 including the max-tech level, are set. That 

9 is all three of these issues right here. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Would you go back 

12 to the previous slide I think you showed? I 

13 guess I am misreading this. It is looking 

14 like the max-tech is lower than the top of the 

15 market? 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. That is 

17 mislabeled. 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. I just 

19 wanted to double -- 

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So, the blue line is 

21 top of market. Oh, the red line should be a 

22 revised market maximum level, basically. 
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1 There is not really a good name for it, right? 

2 So, the blue is if you set top of market based 

3 on all the pumps in the 3D surface and you end 

4 up with these holes, and the red line is 

5 basically just one example of an attempt to 

6 get a market maximum that represents all the 

7 flow and specific speed spaces. So, the 

8 terminology is not really correct and is 

9 confusing. 

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again, Steve 

11 Rosenstock. 

12 Yes, again, it is a matter of 

13 earlier on there was like four different 

14 versions of efficiency that were shown, you 

15 know, that was being used throughout the 

16 world. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So, these 

18 particular figures are based on pump 

19 efficiency. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Sorry. So, we 

22 could do something similar with overall 
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1 efficiency or other metrics. We just 

2 basically have these as examples for a 

3 methodology that could be followed. 

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

5 Yes, so this is just one example of 

6 one possible approach -- 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: That's right. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- at this 

9 specific test condition at Best Efficient 

10 point? 

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 

14 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. 

15 One difference I want to try to 

16 make clear here is the MEI looks to drop the 

17 bottom 10 percent. It is not shooting for a 

18 certain efficiency level, which we seem to be 

19 going for here. It is I want to eliminate a 

20 certain portion of the market that is the 

21 lowest-performing part of that market. 

22 And so, you would be able to always 
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1 find a spot with that 10 percent. You 

2 wouldn't have to worry about discontinuities 

3 or any of that. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. 

5 MR. CASE: So, it differs from your 

6 process, I understand, but it does simplify 

7 trying to find 10 percent, 15 percent, 20 

8 percent, whatever we set that level at. 

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So, DOE's 

10 process, basically, deals with efficiency 

11 levels. So, you could create an efficiency 

12 level that was the equivalent of cutting off a 

13 certain percentage of market, and that is 

14 something that could be done. But, yes, the 

15 terminology and the process here is different 

16 in that respect. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So, moving on, the 

18 next part of the market assessment is the 

19 technology assessment in which DOE identifies 

20 technology options that can be used to improve 

21 efficiency. And this list is a preliminary 

22 list of things that could happen. We 
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1 understand that the primary thing that happens 

2 is just hydraulic redesign of the pumps to 

3 meet the new standard. And we have identified 

4 a few other things that have more detail in 

5 the framework, including smoothing surface 

6 finish, reducing clearances, reducing 

7 friction. 

8 And then, if we do go to the 

9 expanded approach of pumps inclusive of motor 

10 and VSD, we will also potentially look at 

11 technology options, which are adding a VSD, 

12 improving the VSD efficiency, and, also, 

13 reducing standby power for those VSDs. And we 

14 are also interested in other suggestions that 

15 manufacturers are using to improve the 

16 efficiency of their pumps. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Greg? 

18 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. 

19 In 3-14, we agree with the factors 

20 for the pump that you have come up with as 

21 ways to improve the pump. In the framework 

22 document, we believe some of the percentages 
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1 of increase would be going from the lowest 

2 pump on the market to max-tech level, to be 

3 able to hit those types of increases. A 

4 surface finish of 18 percent increase in 

5 efficiency, only a very, very small segment 

6 market could possibly benefit like that. 

7 MS. WILLIAMS: To be fair, the 

8 framework document does state that it is 

9 typically 1 to 3 percent. 

10 MR. CASE: Yes, yes. So, we just 

11 wanted to go on record as HI saying some of 

12 the efficiencies that we saw, the 10 to 12 

13 percent increase in efficiency, that would be 

14 taking us from the bottom of the market to the 

15 top of the market in most cases. 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: So, we would be 

17 interested in specific information related to 

18 that and the efficiency increases that the 

19 manufacturers believe actually result from 

20 these technology options. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Neal? 

22 MR. ELLIOTT: Neal Elliott, ACEEE. 
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1 The other concern, just in terms of 

2 some of these technologies -- and I am going 

3 to mention, in particular, the surface finish 

4 and running clearances -- those are designed 

5 as new. And one of the concerns I have is 

6 actually persistence in the marketplace for 

7 those. 

8 You know, having an ultra-smooth 

9 finish is something that may be great for 

10 performance right out of the box. It is 

11 unlikely that performance would persist in the 

12 marketplace. 

13 So, I just think we need to be 

14 careful in terms of looking at, if you will, 

15 from my racing days when I raced cars, 

16 blueprinting an engine and taking an engine 

17 that we are actually going to try to run for 

18 100,000. So, let's not push the envelope on 

19 stuff that is not going to have long-term 

20 market persistence. 

21 The other thing -- and this came up 

22 at lunch, and I just wanted to reiterate this 
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1 -- when we use the term "VFD" here or "VSD," I 

2 think we want to be clear that, when we are 

3 talking about it from the advocates' 

4 perspective and from HI's perspective, we are 

5 not taking about just putting an adjustable6 speed motor device there. We are talking 

7 about putting an adjustable-speed motor device 

8 control and feedback circuitry together. It 

9 is not just the VSD; there is more to that. 

10 And I think I am concerned that we 

11 kind of go into the shorthand, but I think we 

12 need to be cognizant that the adjustable-speed 

13 drive or variable-speed drive without controls 

14 doesn't really produce the results we are 

15 looking for. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 

17 MR. LLENZA: Yes, that has to do 

18 with the definition of what we decide that VSD 

19 is for these applications. So, you could sort 

20 of define it. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: And I think that is 

22 useful because I think that is the first time 
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1 we have all been really clear. We have kind 

2 of danced around the edges about those 

3 elements being one thing. So, thank you for 

4 that. 

5 MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, and I think it 

6 is an issue, you know, as long as we define 

7 this clearly -- that was not clearly-defined 

8 in the framework document. I think in the HI 

9 it was clear. When we clearly defined it, we 

10 defined it as the four components, which was 

11 the pump, the drive, the motor, and the 

12 feedback control system. So, I think in our 

13 sense there are the four elements. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, follow on. Go 

15 ahead. 

16 MR. RIVEST: Mike Rivest. 

17 You know, in any case, when we look 

18 at the consumer end-costs, we are looking at 

19 installed cost. So, we would have those 

20 components plus their installation. So, it 

21 would be a total. You know, we would capture 

22 all the costs. 
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1 MR. ELLIOTT: I understand. This 

2 is a question for transparency and clarity in 

3 terminology because I don't want this to come 

4 and be misconstrued in the market by others 

5 who we are dealing with or, basically, have it 

6 come around and bite us in the back side. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. 

8 MR. ELLIOTT: So, I am just looking 

9 for transparency. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary first. And 

11 then, back to Steve. 

12 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 

13 California IOUs. 

14 This isn't just an issue with 

15 respect to capturing the cost. It is an issue 

16 with respect to fully understanding the 

17 savings. So, we are going to regulate an 

18 appliance, we will better understand the 

19 savings if we are looking at an appliance, a 

20 pump, that is sold in a fully-integrated 

21 package, which would include the pump, motor, 

22 control, and control algorithm. 
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1 And I would like to make one quick 

2 comments on 3-14, the opportunities for 

3 improvement. Neal mentioned persistence in 

4 the market of these opportunities. I think 

5 there may be an opportunity associated with 

6 improving maintainability or persistence of 

7 savings in the market itself. 

8 For example, that might be easily9 accessible taps for measuring suction and 

10 discharge pressure. It might be perhaps 

11 selling some pumps with gauges, so operators 

12 could determine whether or not they are 

13 operating at their Best Efficiency Point or 

14 even within their operating range. 

15 So, as you look at options, I think 

16 you should look at a group of options that may 

17 improve maintenance and persistence of savings 

18 over the lifetime rather than just as the pump 

19 package is sold. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

21 MS. WILLIAMS: I just want to 

22 follow up on that. Any technology options 
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1 that you want to propose to be considered, 

2 just keep in mind that they do have to be 

3 captured in a metric. And as was mentioned 

4 before, if it is strictly a design requirement 

5 -- it is just something to keep in mind where 

6 you are thinking of the options; we do have to 

7 be able to capture them in a metric. 

8 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, that is 

9 an excellent point. Looking to the lighting 

10 industry, it utilizes mean lamp lumens, which 

11 is metric of performance over life. I don't 

12 know what may or may not be appropriate for 

13 pumps, but, surely, there are some savings 

14 associated with measures that would improve 

15 performance over life that could and should be 

16 looked at. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve, thanks 

18 for being patient. 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, sure. 

20 Again, Steve Rosenstock, EEI. 

21 And again, please forgive me I 

22 didn't read that section of the framework 
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1 document. But, again, I just have to come 

2 back to the fact I know variable-speed drives 

3 are very common and they have come down in 

4 price quite significantly. But I would hope 

5 that, if there are other technologies that go 

6 in that parentheses that says "pumps plus 

7 motors plus," if there is a stage control that 

8 would work better or two-stage or three-stage 

9 control, that may or may not be in the 

10 classical definition a variable-speed drive or 

11 some other technology out there that could 

12 also provide savings for these products, I 

13 would not want them to be excluded from the 

14 technology options or the analysis. 

15 Because manufacturers and other 

16 companies are innovating all the time, and I 

17 just kind of get a sense that it is like, "Oh, 

18 well, it is a variable-speed drive and the 

19 feedback control are the option with this 

20 equipment, period," and I don't feel that that 

21 is the case. There might be others out there. 

22 Thank you. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

2 Louis? 

3 MR. STARR: I think maybe some of 

4 the points that Steve is bringing up, some 

5 examples of that would be like an Aquastat, 

6 which measures return water temperature. So, 

7 it turns the pump on full speed whenever you 

8 need hot water. And then, another example 

9 would be like a submersible pump. Like you 

10 have an air conditioner system and you have 

11 water that comes off the coil and you pump it 

12 up and dump it into the thing. Neither of 

13 those applications would have VFD used in, but 

14 an Aquastat, which is very cheap, or 

15 relatively cheap, and a float switch, which is 

16 also relatively cheap, would be some things 

17 that would be kind of technologies that would 

18 kind of meet what he is talking about. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

20 Ken? 

21 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano 

22 with HI. 
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1 I just wanted to reiterate that 

2 what the HI is proposing in the extended 

3 product approach is two categories. One is a 

4 pump motor variable-speed device, variable5 speed drive, with feedback, which isn't 

6 necessarily a VFD, variable-frequency drive, 

7 which is a very specific electronic device to 

8 vary the speed of a motor, but not the only 

9 way to vary speed. So, we are not limiting it 

10 to that. 

11 And then, the second category of 

12 extended product which is a pump and a motor 

13 with some control mechanism that doesn't 

14 include variable speed, which does exactly 

15 what was just mentioned, like turning a pump 

16 on and off based on load demand. So, that is 

17 how we have proposed to address that. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

19 Joanna? 

20 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. 

21 Ken, is HI considering a test 

22 procedure for extended products that would 
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1 capture the effectiveness of the feedback 

2 control? 

3 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes, the simple 

4 answer is yes. The effectiveness of the 

5 feedback control itself or of the extended 

6 product including the feedback control? 

7 MS. MAUER: The extended product 

8 including the feedback control. 

9 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. So, in 

10 simple terms, it is here is a load profile of 

11 a variable load which you define, and then, 

12 you test products against that. It is 

13 essentially that wire-to-water that says how 

14 much energy do I have to put in to get out 

15 what amount of output. 

16 MS. MAUER: So, it could capture, 

17 if you an identical, two identical pumps, 

18 motors, VFDs, say, but with different control 

19 systems, that one might be better than the 

20 other, would the test procedure capture that 

21 difference? 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg? 
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1 MR. CASE: The semi-analytical 

2 model might be better than test procedure 

3 there. We would develop a set of load 

4 profiles, kind of like miles per gallon for a 

5 car. You know you are not really going to get 

6 the miles per gallon that the sticker says, 

7 but we would test against a certain criteria, 

8 load profile, maybe for possibly more than 

9 those. Those pumps could be rated, those 

10 pumps, motors, possibly drives, possibly 

11 on/off controls could be rated against those, 

12 and we would get an output number. It would 

13 allow you to compare one unit to the other. 

14 So, not a test, but more of a semi15 analytical model that we could provide the 

16 data into that would give you that output and 

17 help you with that decision matrix. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis? 

19 MR. STARR: I think, essentially, 

20 what he is saying is just a load profile. 

21 Even for those two examples I provided, you 

22 could create a load profile for that. Then, 
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1 with that load profile, you could capture the 

2 savings based on it. So, basically, it’s just 

3 identifying the load profiles for certain 

4 conditions. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MR. HANDZEL: But you have to have 

7 the load data for the motor, the drive, and 

8 the pump. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: And that was Mark 

10 last. 

11 MR. HANDZEL: Sorry. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So, Tom Eckman? 

13 That's okay. 

14 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman. 

15 I am really glad DOE has a top16 notch analytical team to deal with this 

17 problem. I will just state that for the 

18 record. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 Because, in addition to the load 

21 profile, to do the economics right, we need to 

22 know the share or the fraction of the units 
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1 out there today that already have this system 

2 engaged. So, how many variable-speed drives 

3 are in place on pumps today for various 

4 horsepowers, flow rates, and what have you? 

5 Because the base-case condition 

6 would be in some cases a variable-speed drive 

7 and in some cases no variable-speed drive. 

8 So, good luck with that. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

10 Sarah, do you want in here? 

11 MS. WIDDER: Sure. Just really 

12 quick, I think Tom is exactly right. We are 

13 going to get into that and try to talk about 

14 our analysis approach in the next few slides. 

15 So, that is a good prelude to it. 

16 And it will be a difficult problem. 

17 So, hopefully, everyone can help us with that. 

18 The one thing I had to follow up on 

19 the semi-analytical model you were describing, 

20 which seems to be this 14.6 DOE test 

21 procedure, or is that separate? The semi22 analytical model is different than the 14.6 
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1 DOE? Okay. Excellent. That is very helpful. 

2 I was concerned that we were talking about 

3 load profiles for different applications in 

4 the test procedure, which would be very 

5 difficult to achieve. 

6 Okay. Thanks. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are moving 

8 on. 

9 And shortly, for those of you who 

10 are interested, we are going to be taking a 

11 break. 

12 Go ahead. 

13 MS. WILLIAMS: So, just skipping to 

14 the next analysis, which is directly, it is 

15 the screening analysis in which DOE basically 

16 looks at all the technology options that have 

17 been identified and evaluates them against the 

18 following four criteria, which have to do with 

19 technological feasibility; practicability to 

20 manufacture, sell, and service; impacts on 

21 utility or availability to customers; and 

22 impacts on health and safety. 
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1 So, DOE seeks any comment in the 

2 framework document related to the technologies 

3 listed or unlisted and which screening 

4 criteria might apply to them. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Neal 

6 MR. ELLIOTT: Just in response to 

7 4-1, I wanted to reiterate the concern about 

8 the persistence issue and the feasibility of 

9 these in actual performance in the marketplace 

10 over an extended period. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: And let's take a 

12 break, and we are not going to go far. Let's 

13 see if we can do this in 10 minutes. We are 

14 behind schedule, and we will continue doing 

15 this until we are finished. Okay? 

16 (Laughter.) 

17 So, let's run to the restroom and 

18 get back here in 10 minutes, which by the wall 

19 clock there means 3:15. So, we will see back 

20 here shortly. 

21 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

22 went off the record at 3:04 p.m. and went back 
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1 on the record at 3:14 p.m.) 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So, we are handing 

3 out a document. Many of you in the back don't 

4 have this yet. 

5 This is a document concerning 

6 commercial and industrial pumps, a rulemaking 

7 action issued by the Department of Energy. 

8 Although it is not intended or expected, 

9 should any discrepancy occur between the 

10 document posted here and the document posted 

11 in The Federal Register, The Federal Register 

12 publication controls. This document is being 

13 made available through the internet solely as 

14 a means to facilitate public access to this 

15 document. 

16 So, you want to hand it out back 

17 there. 

18 And now, we are going to resume and 

19 we are going to hear from Dan Weintraub, 

20 engineering analysis and manufacturing impact 

21 analysis. 

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Hello, everyone. 
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1 As he said, my name is Dan 

2 Weintraub. I am with Navigant Consulting, and 

3 I will be taking us through an overview of our 

4 engineering analysis and then a quick overview 

5 of the preliminary manufacturer impact 

6 analysis also. 

7 So, what we are going to go through 

8 here, Mike Rivest actually hit on a little bit 

9 as we were discussing the relationships 

10 between cost and efficiency. 

11 So, the purpose here of the 

12 analysis overall is to develop a cost13 efficiency curve. That represents the 

14 relationship between manufacturer price and 

15 efficiency. This would be for each product 

16 class or equipment class. We would like to 

17 develop as many curves as we can. Of course, 

18 we have the limitations that we were 

19 discussing earlier. 

20 Now the reasons we develop these 

21 curves, these are inputs into the downstream 

22 analyses, which ultimately help us with our 
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1 decision-making. So, some of these rulemaking 

2 analyses that these feed into would be the 

3 life-cycle cost and payback period analysis, 

4 manufacturer impact analysis, and the 

5 employment impact analysis. Again, these are 

6 all downstream. 

7 So, next we will look at the 

8 approaches we take to get us to this cost9 efficiency relationship. We have multiple 

10 options that we generally go through. We are 

11 looking at this generically right now, and we 

12 will drill down as we get into these analyses, 

13 as the process goes on. 

14 But, in general, we can use a 

15 combination of three approaches. Those would 

16 be the design option approach, the efficiency17 level approach, and the reverse-engineering 

18 approach. 

19 Looking at them specifically, the 

20 design option approach is more of a bottoms-up 

21 approach. In this case, we look at energy22 efficient design options that are currently on 
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1 the market or potentially on the market, maybe 

2 in prototype phases, and we look at the cost 

3 to adopt these individual options or 

4 combinations of these options, and look at the 

5 resulting efficiency to build incremental cost 

6 curves. 

7 On the other hand, if we look at 

8 the efficiency-level approach, that is a more 

9 of a top-down approach. So, this would be 

10 looking at setting a target efficiency level 

11 that we would like to hit and then looks at 

12 the technologies and costs that are needed to 

13 reach those target levels. 

14 So, if, for example, we were 

15 looking to cut out the bottom 10 percent of 

16 the market, we would look at the efficiency 

17 level needed to do that and the cost 

18 associated with doing so. And that can be 

19 done for any level. 

20 Finally, the last option that we 

21 generally use is the reverse-engineering 

22 approach. This is more of an empirical 
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1 approach. Here we evaluate the cost of 

2 efficiency in products that are already out on 

3 the market, out there already, and to do so, 

4 we purchase these products. These would be 

5 part of the representative units that we were 

6 discussing earlier. We tear them down. We 

7 run them through a cost model of our own, 

8 which we will discuss a little bit more later, 

9 and understand the cost-efficiency curve for 

10 what is out there right now. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: As the comment box 

12 on this page reflects, the Department might 

13 consider using any one or a combination of 

14 these approaches. We have had some comment on 

15 this already. Additional comments before we 

16 move on? 

17 Yes? Your name, please? 

18 MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry, 

19 Colfax Fluid Handling. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Is that on 

21 (referring to the microphone)? You are not 

22 on, Dave. 
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1 MR. McKINSTRY: I am on now. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Good. 

3 MR. McKINSTRY: Okay. I guess my 

4 question is probably a little heresy in this 

5 group. But I don't see this fitting very well 

6 into the MEI process, if the MEI process is 

7 adopted. 

8 The MEI process really 

9 fundamentally says we have a tool to eliminate 

10 a percentage of the lowest efficiency pumps in 

11 the marketplace. And as long as you keep 

12 doing that in some form, .1, .2, .3, the 

13 marketplace takes care of all of this work in 

14 order to bring more efficient products to the 

15 marketplace, so that the market adjusts for 

16 the MEI. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike Rivest? 

18 MR. RIVEST: Heresy, you say, huh? 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 There are so many jokes we could 

21 make here. 

22 So, the Department's job, the 
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1 analysts on this project are looking for the 

2 level that is cost-justified. And so, the 

3 process of going from 10 to 30 to 40 to 50, 

4 you know, intuitively, you guys probably know 

5 what the right number is because you have the 

6 experience. You know how much it is to make 

7 these products. You know what you are capable 

8 of achieving at a reasonable cost. 

9 But there comes a moment where the 

10 costs are no longer reasonable. And so, what 

11 we are trying to do is find out how much it 

12 costs to eliminate 10 percent or 20 or 30 and 

13 stop where the benefit to the consumer is 

14 weighed, is less than the incremental cost to 

15 the consumer of that pump. 

16 So, we need to understand your 

17 costs of manufacturing these pumps. What is 

18 it you have to do to replace this 10 percent 

19 of the market with more efficient products? 

20 Is it redesign costs? Are you having to go to 

21 different materials? New tooling? Different 

22 tolerances? We need to understand that and 
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1 monetize it. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Dave? 

3 MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry, 

4 Colfax Fluid Handling. 

5 Well, you know, we do that every 

6 day. That is what we do to stay in business. 

7 But the beauty of the proposition that we have 

8 made is that we have one process to bring up 

9 the efficiency overall of the marketplace by 

10 using the MEI method, and we have a second 

11 process that saves some real energy, which is 

12 the extended product. So, the combination of 

13 those two will bring massive improvements to 

14 reduction of energy consumption without any of 

15 this work in the technical analysis of costs 

16 of a manufacturer. 

17 MR. RIVEST: The method that the 

18 Department uses is similar to what you are 

19 describing, which would be to set a level that 

20 eliminates the least-efficient product from 

21 the market and creates a product class that is 

22 more efficient and label it, and have people 
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1 adopt it. 

2 But we still need a way of knowing 

3 that the correct number is 10 percent, not 20 

4 percent. So, we need to document it. 

5 MR. McKINSTRY: Then, here is my 

6 challenge to you: find that way and make the 

7 MEI work rather than go through your historic 

8 process, which we think is wasteful -- I 

9 shouldn't speak "we" because that is not an 

10 institute position -- which I think is 

11 wasteful. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

13 Ken? 

14 MR. NAPOLITANO: So, maybe I could 

15 add a little clarity here because I think we 

16 are conflating several things here. So, first 

17 of all, HI wants to reiterate the fact that we 

18 strongly recommend that we harmonize as much 

19 as possible with the EU. And the EU used an 

20 MEI approach, and they did so after studying 

21 for many, many years. There are a lot of 

22 technical reasons why that approach is better 
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1 than trying to set an efficiency number for a 

2 particular size pump and a particular class, 

3 because it adjusts for a lot of variables. 

4 And so, I think one of the things 

5 that is coming out here is that, when Alison 

6 was last up, we were looking at the maps, and 

7 it maybe kind of missed us at the time that 

8 that was talking about an efficiency number as 

9 opposed to this concept of the MEI index. 

10 We just want to reiterate that we 

11 believe that the MEI index is the proper 

12 methodology, the most effective methodology 

13 for calculating how you are going to exclude 

14 the low-performing, separate from what level 

15 you end up choosing. So, that is one point, 

16 is using the MEI index. 

17 And then, there is this separate 

18 point about the cost/benefit relationship 

19 between the various levels. Although I don't 

20 know that we know the answer on how to 

21 calculate that, although we are going to be 

22 providing data, from the standpoint of what 
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1 the redesign costs are to hit different 

2 levels, we have that. So, that is one 

3 component of it. It may not be all the 

4 components of it because it is just the 

5 redesign aspect. 

6 But, clearly, we understand the 

7 need to try to figure out what is the logical 

8 place to draw that line. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 

10 MR. FERNSTROM: I don't think these 

11 two things are mutually-exclusive. I think 

12 MEI is a good way to look at efficiency. What 

13 efficiency improvement we hope to get relative 

14 to the standards that are set is an economic 

15 question. You know, obviously, the higher and 

16 higher we want to go, at some point there is 

17 going to be some cost. 

18 So, the advocates are going to be 

19 asking for the very best efficiency we can get 

20 that is cost-effective for consumers, and that 

21 is an economic question that needs to be 

22 answered. I would highly recommend that DOE 
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1 use mature market cost for these improvements 

2 rather than the cost that one might find 

3 through analyzing a design approach, for 

4 example, using today's costs, because we have 

5 consistently found that the mature market cost 

6 of improving efficiency is less than it may 

7 have been estimated during proceedings like 

8 this that preceded those rules going into 

9 effect. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, do you have a 

11 final comment? 

12 MR. RIVEST: No final comment, 

13 except to say that, you know, we look forward 

14 to working with HI to capture what those costs 

15 are, to understand that if you are going to 

16 submit the data, that would be fantastic. It 

17 is better, though, if we understand how they 

18 were constructed, so that we can document and 

19 -- I don't like to use the word -- but 

20 validate, if you will, that we agree with 

21 those incremental costs. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So, back to Dan for 
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1 a brief description of these methodologies. 

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: Sure. So, moving 

3 forward, yes, if we continue to look at our 

4 historical methodologies that we would use to 

5 develop these cost-efficiency curves, 

6 basically, at a high level we define our 

7 baseline models, which we have discussed in8 depth earlier what these baseline models are. 

9 We go through tear-down and 

10 testing, data collection and interviews, and 

11 that takes us to developing our cost12 efficiency relationship. 

13 Now, looking at the steps in 

14 detail, we have gone through baseline. Alison 

15 spoke to that earlier. The next two 

16 steps, tear-down and testing, and data 

17 collection and interviews, are generally steps 

18 that can be done in parallel, depending on the 

19 situation. And then, tear-down and testing, 

20 here is where we would conduct tests to verify 

21 performance and efficiency ratings. This has 

22 been touched on earlier also. And again, this 
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1 is important since the test procedure is not 

2 yet in place. You are currently using HI 

3 standards, and hopefully, we can see how those 

4 line up with whatever we arrive at. 

5 And then, following that, we 

6 perform reverse-engineering on these products 

7 that we have tested. And we mentioned on the 

8 previous slide -- and we will mention it again 

9 in more detail -- what we mean by reverse10 engineering to help us understand the costs a 

11 little bit better. 

12 Now, when it comes to data 

13 collection and interviews, here we look to 

14 collect all available public and private data 

15 on efficient pump designs. And that means 

16 looking at publicly-available data, but also 

17 having conversations with you, manufacturers, 

18 usually under NDA, to try to understand as 

19 best we can, so everything you know we can 

20 know at the same time. We are looking to gain 

21 as much information as possible. 

22 Along those lines, once we have 
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1 gathered as much information as we can, that 

2 allows us to, then, go forward and develop 

3 these cost-efficiency relationships. So, we 

4 have our inputs, and that brings us down to 

5 our cost-efficiency relationships. 

6 So, at this time, we will have some 

7 comments we are looking for. So, the DOE 

8 seeks input on the methods and approaches used 

9 by manufacturers to improve the efficiency of 

10 pumps and, in particular, how frequently 

11 hydraulic redesign would be the only method 

12 employed. I know there was a little 

13 discussion of that earlier. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Comment on that? 

15 Ken? 

16 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. So, this is 

17 an important point. I think our position is 

18 that hydraulic redesign is going to be the 

19 predominant method because things like surface 

20 finish, tightening clearances, you know, 

21 tightening clearances, in particular, those 

22 are easy to do. And if we could get a little 
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1 more efficiency out of a pump by tightening 

2 the clearances, we have already done it. 

3 Forget about Neal's point, which is 

4 also valid, that if you tighten them, they are 

5 going to open. The more you tighten them, the 

6 faster they are going to open and you will 

7 lose that efficiency anyway. Because there is 

8 a process of natural selection in the 

9 marketplace which says, especially in today's 

10 marketplace, if you have an inefficient pump, 

11 you are going to have a hard time selling it. 

12 So, if you can tweak the clearances 

13 or do any of those types of things to eke it 

14 up, you have already gone down that route. 

15 Surface finish, material changes in most cases 

16 are so costly for the benefit you get from 

17 them that the economically-viable variance of 

18 that has also already been exercised. So, you 

19 are back to hydraulic redesign. 

20 And hydraulic redesign involves a 

21 lot of upfront cost: engineering time, 

22 tooling, new patterns, testing, qualification 
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1 process, and so forth. And so, it is going to 

2 be difficult for a third party, for example, 

3 to do a reverse-engineering to determine the 

4 cost of inefficient-versus-efficient because 

5 the number of pieces, the pounds per piece, 

6 the number of machining, it is going to be 

7 exactly the same. 

8 The difference is that you have 

9 spent millions of dollars to redesign, and a 

10 manufacturer is going to need to amortize 

11 those costs over some reasonable life, which 

12 is what gets passed on to the consumer. But 

13 the physical product won't necessarily 

14 evaluate, from a pure cost to manufacture 

15 standpoint, all that -- now there are some 

16 exceptions, but, overwhelmingly, it is the 

17 massive cost of the redesign amortized over 

18 some period of time to recoup that. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

20 Steve Rosenstock? No? Okay. 

21 Do you want to hit 5-8? 

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. So, the other item we 
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1 are looking for comment on here, Item 5-8, for 

2 each equipment class, DOE welcomes comments on 

3 methods and approaches that DOE intends to 

4 employ to determine potential efficiency 

5 improvements for pumps, detailed information 

6 on the pump's performance and the incremental 

7 manufacturing costs, e.g., material cost, 

8 labor, overhead, building conversion, capital 

9 expenditures for tooling or equipment, 

10 conversion costs associated with efficient 

11 design, R&D expenses, marketing expenses. 

12 That would all be useful. So, again, just 

13 talk about this in general. I mean, we are 

14 aware there is a lot on the front-end. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: I would like to go 

17 back to the point that we are already making 

18 the most efficient pumps that can be made. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 I think what the industry means by 

21 that is we are already making the most 

22 efficient pumps that competitive pressures 
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1 bring upon us by virtue of what consumers are 

2 willing to buy. And there are probably, 

3 certainly, some segments of the market where, 

4 rather than good performance, least-cost is 

5 the buying priority of consumers. 

6 And I submit that in that case, 

7 competitive pressure probably does not bring 

8 us to the most-efficient pumps that can be 

9 made. They bring us to the best pumps that 

10 can be made while meeting the price 

11 expectations of customers. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken wishes to 

13 respond. 

14 MR. NAPOLITANO: Ken Napolitano, 

15 HI. 

16 No, I didn't mean to suggest in any 

17 case that we are making the most-efficient 

18 pumps that can be made. I would say, though, 

19 that over the years, especially in the recent 

20 couple of decades, manufacturers have invested 

21 substantially in improving their efficiencies. 

22 If you were to take the baseline 20 or 30 
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1 years ago and compare it to today, we have 

2 already dropped out -- who knows? -- the 

3 bottom 25, for lots of reasons, whether it is 

4 ASHRAE or AHRI, you know, building codes, but 

5 just the general LEED green building 

6 certifications, the general efficiency 

7 awareness of consumers in the marketplace, 

8 right? 

9 How many of us bought fluorescent 

10 lightbulbs 20 years ago, and they were 10 

11 times the cost of a regular lightbulb, even 

12 though you could do the math in your head? 

13 So, the marketplace has changed, and so the 

14 line has moved. 

15 But we wouldn't be here at the 

16 table in a cooperation fashion to say, yes, we 

17 can raise the efficiencies more and here is 

18 the methodology to do that, and start to take 

19 out whatever today's baseline is against the 

20 bottom 10, the bottom 20, and, by the way, 

21 couple it with an extended-product approach, 

22 which really gets at a big chunk of energy. 
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1 So, we agree. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead, Gary. 

3 MR. FERNSTROM: So, I don't think 

4 regulations are really directed at 

5 manufacturers. I mean, obviously, 

6 manufacturers are the ones that are required 

7 to comply. But I think the regulations are to 

8 assist those customers that maybe don't want 

9 to buy what is best. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

11 MR. STARR: I have a general 

12 question in terms of, it seems like the way 

13 the European market, they adopted the MEI of 

14 10 and 40 percent. What it sounds like they 

15 didn't do is really -- I mean, because it 

16 seems like the natural thing is to split it 

17 out per class and decide an MEI based upon 

18 that class. 

19 I am kind of wondering, in the 

20 European market, if they didn't do that kind 

21 of cost analysis, it seems like it would have 

22 some pretty bad impacts on some of your 
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1 pumplines. I mean, they may have been trying 

2 to achieve it across the market, but it seems 

3 like it could have some negatives, just as a 

4 pump manufacturer. You might have to improve, 

5 spend a lot of money improving certain 

6 pumplines; other ones, it was 10 percent was 

7 no problem. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Ken? 

9 MR. NAPOLITANO: Yes. So, back to 

10 the point about breaking it down into its 

11 categories, the EU did do that. So, the 

12 equation for a particular class of pump is not 

13 the same for another, for that reason. 

14 So, they segregated it that way. 

15 It gets to the C-factor and the equation that 

16 is used. And then, inside of that class, they 

17 said 10 or 20, but against a different 

18 equation. So, one was not disproportionately 

19 disadvantaged to another. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We are going 

21 to press on with the content on slide 102. 

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Mike Rivest 

2 wishes to wedge-in here. 

3 MR. RIVEST: Just out of curiosity, 

4 did that analysis take into account costs? 

5 How was that performed? 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Dave? 

7 MR. McKINSTRY: Well, EU did this. 

8 EU did this over a 10-year period, and there 

9 are some really substantial studies that have 

10 been made, published, and I think Alison may 

11 have them and have looked at them; I am not 

12 sure. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you hear him? 

14 Do you have the studies that the EU produced 

15 over a 10-year period? 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: So, we have looked 

17 at the studies, and they are fairly extensive 

18 in terms of the efficiency analysis, but there 

19 is not really cost analysis in there. As far 

20 as I understand, the only cost analysis was 

21 that brief calculation of the manufacturer 

22 cost at each level that was highly top-down. 
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1 It wasn’t like built up and looked at every 

2 level separately and comprehensively. So, I 

3 think we are talking about a different level 

4 of cost-effectiveness analysis in this 

5 rulemaking. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 

7 MR. LLENZA: I just wanted to ask, 

8 also, what about impacts to the consumer? 

9 There wasn't anything on that particular 

10 level, either? 

11 MS. WILLIAMS: They do do some 

12 analyses, but, in general, the EU analyses are 

13 much more simple than what DOE is required to 

14 do by EPCA. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Dave. 

16 MR. McKINSTRY: No, I would concur 

17 because that is my recollection of those 

18 reports. They were done -- there were cost 

19 studies from the manufacturing standpoint done 

20 and provided by Europump to the EU in the 

21 process. I guess those are probably 

22 available, but we don't have them. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles Llenza? 

2 MR. LLENZA: Yes, I just want to 

3 bring back to the point again, when we go back 

4 to what EPCA requires the Department to do, 

5 and the seven factors, and our analysis is a 

6 little bit more complicated. I think the EU's 

7 system of adoption for standards is a lot more 

8 simplistic in many ways. 

9 We have to go through a dragged-out 

10 process of going to the stakeholders and the 

11 manufacturers and the advocates and the U.S. 

12 public in general. We have to provide an 

13 extensive cost analysis of the impacts in all 

14 the different areas in order to move on with a 

15 standard. 

16 So, I think that is part of what we 

17 are seeing, that maybe while the EU 

18 methodology might be more simplistic, they 

19 didn't have to go through as many hurdles as 

20 we do to get to our final levels. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 
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1 EEI. 

2 So, again, what I am hearing, the 

3 EU process, they didn't have to have public 

4 meetings or let the end-users know that they 

5 were doing this? 

6 MR. McKINSTRY: Oh, yes, the EU 

7 process, believe me, had public meetings. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 

9 MR. McKINSTRY: They had 

10 discussions, multiple discussions with 

11 advocates and with adversaries and the 

12 government. 

13 (Laughter.) 

14 And they weren't so lucky as to 

15 have the environmental NGOs as a portion of 

16 their pre-teamwork. So, they were very heated 

17 activities, and there was a lot of discussion, 

18 and that is what surfaced, is what you see. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Charles? 

20 MR. LLENZA: What kind of timeframe 

21 for adoption did they use? 

22 MR. McKINSTRY: Well, I think they 
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1 call that process that they have been in 12 

2 years. They this year adopted the first one, 

3 13. They are going to adopt .4 in 2015, and 

4 then, they are going to start back in on the 

5 process with additional activities in 2015 

6 with additional products. 

7 So, they view it, I think, as a 

8 continuum, as you do. In some cases, though, 

9 I hear you mention six years. But the process 

10 is well-vetted. It has been a lot of 

11 discussion. 

12 I don't suggest you don't have to 

13 do these things. If the law says you have to 

14 do these things, you do them. I am suggesting 

15 that, as you have encouraged us to try new, 

16 innovative ideas, we would encourage you to 

17 comply with the law with new, innovative 

18 concepts, too. 

19 (Laughter.) 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Back to Dan. 

21 Go, Dan. 

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So, 
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1 resetting ourselves back where we were before, 

2 talking a bit about our tear-down and test 

3 methodology, this is our generic methodology. 

4 We would definitely have to tailor this toward 

5 this industry, as we have discussed. You are 

6 not going to expect to see a lot of difference 

7 in costs, manufacturing costs, of each pump, 

8 but it would all come in the front-end. But 

9 we would still, nonetheless, if we were to 

10 take this approach, I will take you through 

11 what it would look like. 

12 And that would be selection of 

13 units. So, we have discussed that earlier. 

14 That would bring us to physical tear-down. 

15 And physical tear-down means taking these 

16 products down to their core components, as 

17 small as you can go, and creating a bill of 

18 materials and using our experience to break 

19 these out into either fabricated parts, parts 

20 that we would believe that were fabricated in21 house by the manufacturers or purchased parts 

22 from outside sources. 
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1 For fabricated parts, we use our 

2 models and our experience to come up with raw 

3 material plus labor plus manufacturing 

4 overhead. A whole variety of costs run into 

5 that to understand the cost of that part. 

6 And on the other side, we use the 

7 best-available data for the cost of these 

8 purchased parts, what is out there in the 

9 marketplace. 

10 Once you have these parts, you have 

11 your fabricated and your purchased, we then 

12 model the assembly process that you guys would 

13 go through in your own factories and how much 

14 that would cost to put it together. 

15 And when you bring that all 

16 together, you have a manufacturer production 

17 cost, which would be our estimate, which is 

18 one of the reasons we come up with this; we 

19 discuss these things with you, and we want to 

20 come up with the best estimates possible to 

21 understand these things. 

22 And that is key as we are looking 
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1 at changing, if we are looking at coming up 

2 with theoretical changes to designs, we want 

3 to understand what the baseline was and how 

4 costs will vary when we come up with these 

5 changes. 

6 So, next we will take a closer look 

7 at manufacturer's selling price and what is 

8 and is not included in this, in our analyses. 

9 So, manufacturer selling price, MSP, would 

10 include manufacturer production costs, which 

11 we just discussed, and that is materials, 

12 direct labor, operating cost, maintenance, 

13 appreciation, taxes; all costs such as these. 

14 We then, estimate a markup, and that markup 

15 pretty much represents contribution margin. 

16 It is all the costs not associated with 

17 production. And when you multiply those two, 

18 it comes to a manufacturer selling price that 

19 we use within our models. And again, we 

20 intend to have these discussions with the 

21 manufacturers to try to validate our initial 

22 assumptions. 
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1 What is not included in 

2 manufacturer selling price is conversion 

3 costs. These are some of the things that were 

4 just discussed earlier, and that would be your 

5 front-end costs. 

6 So, conversion costs typically come 

7 in two, well, you break them out into two 

8 sides. That would be product conversion cost 

9 and capital conversion cost. So, product 

10 conversion cost would be those engineering 

11 redesigns, the testing costs and labor; and 

12 like we said, hydraulic redesigns would fall 

13 under those types of costs. 

14 On the other hand, capital 

15 conversion costs; these are the costs of 

16 capital investments needed to meet these 

17 standards. And that would be new machines, 

18 new tooling, basically, anything that would 

19 fall under plant property and equipment that 

20 the industry would need to invest in in order 

21 to meet new standards. 

22 Now, although they are not included 
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1 in the MSP and in the engineering analysis, 

2 typically, they are included in the 

3 manufacturing impact analysis. And that is 

4 where these costs come into play, and we look 

5 at the impact on the manufacturers as a whole. 

6 Now there are some precedents where 

7 we can look at bringing these costs in and 

8 amortizing them, if we truly believe there are 

9 going to be price increases due to them. And 

10 those are things that can be worked out down 

11 the line. 

12 So, at this time, we have another 

13 comment box and Item 5-9. DOE welcomes 

14 comment on the markup approach proposed for 

15 developing estimates of manufacturer's selling 

16 prices. Do you want to start there? 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. Yes, Gary? 

18 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom, 

19 California Investor Owned Utilities. 

20 I would like to reiterate my point 

21 about the importance of mature market cost. 

22 And I would like to relate an example. 
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1 About five-six years ago, Pentair 

2 introduced an extended-product category pool 

3 pump. This product was the combination of a 

4 pump head, motor, variable-speed drive, and 

5 integral control. It wholesaled for about 

6 $1800. Five years later, it is about $1,000 

7 on the wholesale market. So, in a five-year 

8 period, that is a drop of $800, which is 

9 really significant. It is almost half the 

10 cost. 

11 And I would encourage DOE, as they 

12 do these analyses, to look not just at the 

13 current cost of the transition to a higher 

14 efficiency, but to consider what might happen 

15 to those costs in the years following. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

17 Dave? 

18 MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry, 

19 Colfax Fluid Handling. 

20 This is the required response from 

21 the Hydraulic Institute, that we can't talk 

22 about 5-9, 5-10, 5-11 because of our 
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1 requirements under antitrust. I am sure that 

2 the DOE can talk individually to companies, 

3 but we can't talk in a room with members of 

4 other companies. So, we decline any comment 

5 on those. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

7 Steve Rosenstock? 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

9 Yes, just a quick thought. In 

10 terms of the tear-down and test methodology, 

11 depending on the regulatory regime that is 

12 chosen, at this point, then, you would have to 

13 really look at tearing down, I will say, 

14 standalone pumps, pumps sold alone, as well as 

15 the pumps sold with motors. So, you are 

16 tearing down the pump and the motor, and then, 

17 you might have to tear down a pump, motor, and 

18 VSD combination to really get the full range 

19 of costs. 

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. So, that is 

21 correct. But the way that we would be looking 

22 at it, as I mentioned, purchased part versus 
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1 fabricated parts, and generally, these motors 

2 are going to be purchased, brought in. So, we 

3 understand the cost of the purchased motor. 

4 We understand the cost of a VSD system, if it 

5 is not made in-house, which doesn't add as 

6 much complexity. If, on the other hand, they 

7 are manufacturing things in-house, that does 

8 lead to a whole lot more complexity. 

9 But we would consider whatever the 

10 regime leads us to. We would consider these 

11 products and tearing them down. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have 

14 additional comments on 5-10 or 5-11? Because 

15 we are about to move on. 

16 (No response.) 

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. I will 

18 move forward. 

19 Finally, to wrap up the engineering 

20 analysis, we will look at outside regulatory 

21 changes, and this also will tie in a little 

22 bit to cumulative regulatory burden, which we 
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1 will discuss a little later. 

2 But, just to touch upon this, the 

3 DOE will consider the effects of both DOE and 

4 non-DOE regulations that may impact 

5 manufacturers of the covered products. This 

6 is done with the understanding that other 

7 regulatory changes or other DOE changes may 

8 impact the efficiency of the product, how far 

9 you can go with efficiency based on regulation 

10 of other products, along with financial 

11 impacts that go with it. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

14 Edison Electric Institute. 

15 As someone alluded to earlier, 

16 there have been a lot of significant 

17 improvements in ASHRAE 90.1, which covers 

18 commercial buildings in the United States. 

19 Some of them -- again, I didn't bring it with 

20 me -- but there are some requirements that do 

21 affect pumps in commercial buildings, whether 

22 they are new buildings or total renovations. 
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1 And for 2013, there is always a 

2 whole slew of new sections or revised sections 

3 to ASHRAE. The 2013 version of ASHRAE will be 

4 published probably in October/November. 

5 And again, in terms of the 

6 analytics, the Pacific Northwest National Lab 

7 does the analysis and the progress reports for 

8 ASHRAE 90.1. So, in terms of any new language 

9 that has been approved into ASHRAE, you might, 

10 if you get a chance to talk to them about 

11 anything that affects pumping energy, I would 

12 strongly suggest that you -- or take a look at 

13 some of the historical analysis that has quite 

14 an impact on building energy use in the U.S. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark? 

16 MR. HANDZEL: Steve, they have been 

17 publishing some preliminary copies of that 

18 90.1 2013, and there is no additional changes 

19 planned at this time to variable-speed 

20 requirements in that document that we are 

21 aware of. 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 
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1 Yes, they are not done yet. 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 MR. HANDZEL: Oh, I know that. I 

4 know that they have been progressively moving 

5 down horsepower. But, from what we 

6 understand, there is not a plan to drop the 

7 horsepower requirements on variable loads in 

8 this next document. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It's not over yet. 

10 (Laughter.) 

11 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

13 MR. STARR: Oh, no. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay. 

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: So, if there is no 

16 more discussion on the engineering analysis, 

17 that will conclude that section. 

18 And now, we are going to go through 

19 a very brief overview of the manufacturer 

20 impact analysis, and we will take you through 

21 that. 

22 So, here, the purpose of the 
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1 manufacturer impact analysis is threefold. It 

2 is to assess the impact of standards on the 

3 manufacturers. So, this is where we are 

4 looking at the financial effect on you, the 

5 manufacturers; identify and estimate impacts 

6 on manufacturer subgroups that may experience 

7 greater impact than the industry as a whole, 

8 and examine the impact of cumulative 

9 regulatory burden on the industry. 

10 And the way that we get, the 

11 methods that we use, are toanalyze industry 

12 cashflow and net present value through the use 

13 of our Government Regulatory Impact Model, 

14 which the acronym is GRIM, aptly named. 

15 (Laughter.) 

16 And then, we would go ahead and 

17 interview the manufacturers to refine our 

18 initial inputs that we have gathered. And we 

19 would also develop subgroup analyses and 

20 address qualitative issues as we go through 

21 it. 

22 So, next I will take you through an 
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1 overview of the process. So, here we have 

2 broken it out into three phases. Phase 1 

3 occurs in the interim or preliminary analysis, 

4 which we will be entering soon. Phases 2 and 

5 3 occur during the NOPR phase. And I will 

6 walk you through it a bit. We are going to 

7 try to go through this quickly. 

8 So, it starts with developing an 

9 industry profile. This is where we identify 

10 the industry structures; we evaluate market 

11 characteristics; we develop average financial 

12 parameters based on publicly-available 

13 information. This is where we start to get 

14 ourselves grounded in your industry, so that 

15 when we come to talk to you, we have a 

16 baseline to start discussing, a place to 

17 start. 

18 From there, we go through initial 

19 MIA interviews. And these will be in 

20 conjunction with engineering interviews. So, 

21 they will both be together. They usually work 

22 out well that way. 
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1 And here, we will identify issues 

2 that are important to manufacturers, and we 

3 will also look to gain as much information as 

4 we can on a preliminary basis. And this will 

5 also feed into the preliminary engineering 

6 analysis that goes on. So, we will look to 

7 get as much information as we can in those 

8 early phases. 

9 At the start of Phase 2, we will 

10 tailor a generic GRIM model, and that is what 

11 we mean by developing a strawman GRIM. We 

12 will tailor that to the industry structure, 

13 now that we have spoken with manufacturers and 

14 we have a better understanding of the standing 

15 of the industry. 

16 At that point, we will develop an 

17 interview guide. This will be a written 

18 document. It will have all of the questions 

19 that we are looking to ask manufacturers, at 

20 that time, and those will be sent out ahead of 

21 time in front of our interviews. So that you 

22 have as much time as possible to prepare any 
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1 answers to questions you do and do not want to 

2 answer and, also, give you time to prepare any 

3 questions you have for us or additional 

4 concerns that have come up along the way. 

5 So, then, when we enter Phase 3, 

6 that is when we go into interviews and perform 

7 the analyses. So, at this point, we will meet 

8 with you, and it is generally conducted in our 

9 confidentiality agreements. We go through the 

10 interview guide. We discuss all these key 

11 issues. We look to see what information can 

12 be shared, what can't, to see how you feel 

13 about our assumptions we have made so far, and 

14 try to bring it all together and get all the 

15 additional input that we need to finally run 

16 our financial model, the GRIM. 

17 And that is the final stage. That 

18 is where we run our models and we estimate the 

19 impact to the industry, net present value, and 

20 domestic employment. And that is using that 

21 model. 

22 Then, along with these estimates, 
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1 we will also assess the cumulative regulatory 

2 burden -- that is kind of done in parallel -- 

3 and the effects on industry competition that 

4 this may have, and any disproportionate 

5 effects to subgroups, especially small 

6 businesses. We will always be looking at 

7 effects on small businesses. And, again, 

8 input from the industry on that front is 

9 always very, very useful. 

10 So, that is a quick overview of a 

11 much larger process. At this time, I will go 

12 into the comment section. So, Item 12-1, the 

13 DOE seeks comment on the subgroups of pump 

14 equipment manufacturers that should be 

15 considered in a manufacturing subgroup 

16 analysis. 

17 And I guess we will start with 

18 that, see if there is any input. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Subgroups that you 

20 would identify? 

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Would there be any 

22 subgroups that may not be represented by the 
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1 industry as a whole if we were to start 

2 aggregating data? 

3 (No response.) 

4 All right. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: No comment, yes. 

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Move on to Item 

7 12-2. DOE seeks comments on what other 

8 existing regulations or pending regulations it 

9 should consider in its examination of 

10 cumulative regulatory burden. 

11 (No response.) 

12 All right. And finally, we have an 

13 additional item that has been added on. It is 

14 not in the framework. And that is 12-A. That 

15 would be DOE seeks comments on small 

16 businesses that could be impacted by potential 

17 energy conservation standards for commercial 

18 and industrial pumps as well as what these 

19 impacts might be. 

20 And at this point in the game, we 

21 are really just looking for names of small 

22 businesses in your industry that you know of 
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1 that would fall under the Small Business 

2 Administration, a headstart for us because you 

3 guys are more familiar with your industry than 

4 we are. 

5 (No response.) 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: No? Okay. 

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. Well, 

8 at that point, I think we are done with this 

9 section. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: On to Sarah. Mark11 ups analysis, energy use analysis. 

12 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Good afternoon 

13 again, everyone. 

14 As the afternoon wears on, we seem 

15 to be getting less comments, which is good. 

16 (Laughter.) 

17 So, maybe we will all go home by 

18 5:00 or close to that. 

19 So, Dan just talked to you a little 

20 bit about the economic analysis we do to 

21 understand the impacts on manufacturers. We 

22 also spend a lot of time thinking about how 
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1 those costs and changes in manufacturer's 

2 selling price trickle down to the consumer. 

3 And this is all part of our big economic 

4 model, trying to cost-justify the standard 

5 level that we will end up setting for 

6 different product classes. 

7 So, I am going to talk to you right 

8 now a little bit about the mark-ups analysis 

9 we do to get to that final consumer price. 

10 And as has been noted previously, the market 

11 for pumps is very diverse and there could be a 

12 lot of ways a consumer gets a pump or a 

13 pumping system. And we are going to have to 

14 account for that in our mark-up analysis. 

15 The purpose of this analysis is to 

16 convert that manufacturer's selling price, 

17 sort of like a wholesale price, to what a 

18 consumer would pay. It could be through an 

19 OEM dealer, through a distributor; there's a 

20 number of different paths that that pump could 

21 reach the customer, and we will want to 

22 account for each of those mark-ups. And that 
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1 is where we get into the method here. We are 

2 going to identify some representative 

3 distribution channels and apply representative 

4 mark-ups to each of those channels. 

5 So, here are some representative 

6 distribution channels that we have used. It 

7 is similar to the distribution channels we see 

8 in other commercial equipment, commercial and 

9 industrial equipment. The manufacturer 

10 selling directly to the customer, and that is 

11 a wholesale-type distribution channel. The 

12 manufacturer selling through an OEM or an OEM 

13 distributor, and we talked about that being 

14 perhaps common for a lot of pumps where the 

15 distributor is associated with the 

16 manufacturer; that is an OEM channel. The 

17 manufacturer selling through a wholesaler, who 

18 then sells to the customer. Or a manufacturer 

19 selling to the wholesaler who sells to a 

20 contractor who, then, sells to the customer. 

21 And each of those is going to have different 

22 economic implications for that end-customer 
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1 who we are concerned with in this analysis. 

2 We try to look out at, I guess, the 

3 litany of publicly-available information to 

4 try to determine what each of these 

5 incremental mark-ups should be and that might 

6 vary by application or by market segment that 

7 the pump is being sold into. 

8 There is a lot of data available 

9 from the U.S. Census Bureau; also, RS Means 

10 data, and industry reports about where pumps 

11 are going and through which distribution 

12 channels, based on the application, and then, 

13 the incremental mark-ups that that 

14 distribution channel might incur. 

15 In our mark-ups analysis, we also 

16 want to account for efficiency improvements 

17 that might occur because of standards. So, we 

18 are going to look at, similar to our 

19 engineering analysis, we are going to look at 

20 a baseline mark-up that is currently applied 

21 right now and is applicable to all the 

22 equipment that is available in the market, and 
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1 would have those incremental pieces that we 

2 saw on the previous slide. 

3 And then, we also want to look at 

4 the incremental mark-up and how the mark-up 

5 might change based on an efficiency 

6 improvement. So, some things might not change 

7 the mark-up. 

8 Transportation is a good example. 

9 So, we do want to account for shipping costs 

10 or transportation costs sometimes in our mark11 up. But if an efficiency improvement doesn't 

12 change the weight or the size of a piece of 

13 equipment, that doesn't always need to be part 

14 of the mark-up or part of the incremental 

15 mark-up. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

17 MS. WIDDER: Go ahead. 

18 MR. STARR: Actually, on your 

19 previous slide, slide 111, you have 

20 manufacturer like a sales rep for a 

21 manufacturer. Which one of the channels is 

22 that, and is that different than like buying a 
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1 pump from Granger, although I don't think you 

2 could probably buy it? It looks like your 

3 third one. Where is that captured? Which one 

4 of those market distribution channels would be 

5 manufacturer's sales rep be on that? 

6 MS. WIDDER: From a sales rep? It 

7 would probably depend on how that piece of 

8 equipment is marked up. I would think it 

9 would either be manufacturer -- I think it 

10 would be the OEM channel, is probably what 

11 would be most representative. 

12 Dave, if you want to answer, go 

13 ahead. 

14 MR. McKINSTRY: Yes, I would 

15 suggest No. 1. Most companies put the sales 

16 agent channels as a cost of sales, which is in 

17 their cost rollup. If you sell to a 

18 distributor, then you sell to a distributor at 

19 a price, and he marks it up. If you sell with 

20 agents, which was your example, then, 

21 generally, you set the price because it is 

22 your produce, and, then, you pay the agent a 
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1 commission. 

2 MR. STARR: Okay. Well, I know 

3 from experience in buying stuff, when we did 

4 contracting work, it seems like, depending on 

5 which ones you were, you paid a different 

6 price for the piece of equipment. It wasn't 

7 pumps, but on valves and things. So, it seems 

8 like it can be that your price can be a lot 

9 different if you are really big than if you 

10 are small. 

11 MS. WIDDER: And that is part of 

12 what this analysis is trying to account for, 

13 the difference from a wholesale or large 

14 company price that you might get versus a 

15 small company price. Way back when the pump 

16 was manufactured, that same pump cost the same 

17 amount to manufacture, regardless of where it 

18 went and got sold. 

19 And maybe these distribution 

20 channels are totally the wrong ones and we 

21 should have different distribution channels. 

22 And if that is the case, please comment to 
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1 that effect. 

2 But what we are trying to get at in 

3 this analysis is exactly what you mentioned. 

4 That pump ends up being a lot of different 

5 prices out there in the marketplace. And how 

6 can we analyze that and account for that in 

7 some representative way? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to the 

9 comment boxes. You can see the comment boxes 

10 listed there on 113. Information about 

11 distribution channels, comments and additional 

12 information on appropriate way to establish 

13 distribution channel percentages across 

14 equipment classes and applications, and then, 

15 finally, 6-3, sources of relevant data that 

16 could be used to characterize mark-ups. 

17 Mark, do you want to start? 

18 MR. HANDZEL: Well, much like the 

19 answer that veDave gave earlier, while we are 

20 all here in the room as members of the 

21 Hydraulic Institute, you know, we are all 

22 competitors. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Right. 

2 MR. HANDZEL: So, we all have 

3 different ways that we deal with this. So, we 

4 don't have an industry answer for you on this 

5 subject. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

7 MR. HANDZEL: So, you will have to 

8 get it from us individually. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And that is 

10 what the interview process will accommodate. 

11 Other comments on this series of 

12 comment boxes? 

13 (No response.) 

14 Is there a different distribution 

15 channel than those that are arrayed here on 

16 the previous -- 

17 MR. McKINSTRY: I thought that she 

18 captured them pretty well. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, 

20 Dave. 

21 MR. McKINSTRY: Dave McKinstry, 

22 Colfax Fluid Handling. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: And Mark? 

2 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel. 

3 I would agree that she captured 

4 them. There are many variations that could 

5 adapt those further, but you have the gist of 

6 it. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

8 MR. HANDZEL: Okay? 

9 MS. WIDDER: Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And then, the next 

11 comment box, 6-4 and 6-5? 

12 MS. WIDDER: So, these Requests for 

13 Comments are related to the baseline and 

14 incremental mark-ups, to the extent that that 

15 is applicable for pumps where some efficiency 

16 improvements might require an incremental 

17 mark-up, and that wouldn't be captured in the 

18 baseline mark-up. And comments on that 

19 approach? 

20 And then, DOE seeks comments 

21 specifically on the appropriate transportation 

22 and shipping costs to include, and then, how 
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1 to best allocate those costs as part of the 

2 baseline mark-up or incremental mark-up or a 

3 manufacturer's selling price. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: David? 

5 MR. McKINSTRY: David McKinstry, 

6 Colfax Pump. 

7 You are going to get tired of 

8 hearing this, but those, again, would be 

9 things we couldn't discuss among our 

10 competitors. 

11 MS. WIDDER: Right, which is 

12 certainly reasonable, and that is why we do 

13 the manufacturer interview process. That 

14 data, then, we can use in our analysis and 

15 have that information without having it in 

16 this public forum. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So, we are moving on 

18 to the energy use. 

19 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Oh, go ahead. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Hi. Steve 

21 Rosenstock, EEI. 

22 And again, this gets back to the 
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1 regulatory regime. It is kind of the same 

2 question. So, under the regime, where you are 

3 looking at the pumps and the motors and the 

4 VSDs, you are going to have to contact the 

5 manufacturers of each of the separate products 

6 in this case, right? 

7 MS. WIDDER: That is a very -- 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Separate 

9 components. Excuse me. 

10 MS. WIDDER: That is a very good 

11 point. I think that is something that we will 

12 have to consider as we -- to be honest, we 

13 haven't gotten that far yet because we are 

14 still talking about scope and what the 

15 extended-product approach would look like just 

16 from a regulation-of-pumps standpoint. 

17 But when we look at market impacts 

18 and the manufacturer price, we would certainly 

19 need data about that. Whether or not that 

20 would be going to those individual 

21 manufacturers as well and doing a similar 

22 analysis, it probably would be more looking at 
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1 what available data there was in the public 

2 domain as well as the knowledge of the pump 

3 manufacturers who worked probably closely with 

4 those manufacturers to get something 

5 representative we can use in our analysis 

6 without having to redo the whole process. But 

7 that is certainly something we will have to 

8 consider, based on the scope we decide to move 

9 forward with. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 

11 MR. FERNSTROM: I was going to say, 

12 aren't we something of a common opinion here 

13 that these integrated products or extended 

14 products would be sold as a unit? So, you 

15 would probably want to start with the 

16 manufacturer because they would be buying and 

17 putting the drive on the product. And then, 

18 to double-check to see whether or not the 

19 information you are getting is reasonable, you 

20 might want to check drives in the market. 

21 MS. WIDDER: Certainly. That is a 

22 good suggestion. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Dave? 

2 MR. McKINSTRY: Yes, Dave 

3 McKinstry, Colfax Fluid Handling. 

4 Well, we really fundamentally agree 

5 with Gary. We think under the extended6 product, the manufacturer assumes the price 

7 responsibility for those. 

8 MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

10 MS. WIDDER: Great. 

11 Okay. So, now we are going to talk 

12 a little bit about -- the one thing I will say 

13 about mark-ups before we move on is just to 

14 emphasize the cost analysis that DOE does. It 

15 is really based on cost to the consumer and 

16 cost-effectiveness to the consumer, while 

17 accounting for manufacturer impacts. 

18 And so, these mark-ups fall into 

19 the life-cycle cost analysis and, then, the 

20 payback period analysis. The reason I bring 

21 that up is the other component of the payback 

22 period analysis is this energy use 
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1 characterization that I am going to talk about 

2 now. 

3 So, we look at the price to the 

4 consumer through these different channels. 

5 And then, we do this energy use 

6 characterization to try to describe, based on 

7 all the different applications you could put 

8 pumps in, what is the energy use, what is the 

9 total current energy use and how will our 

10 standards impact that energy use or conserve 

11 energy. 

12 And then, those two pieces are 

13 really what get us to the life-cycle cost and 

14 payback period analysis, and let us flow down 

15 to set standard levels. 

16 So, I am going to talk at a high 

17 level about what that analysis looks like. As 

18 we all sort of are aware and Tom brought up, 

19 this is going to be a very complex question. 

20 I think what we are talking about 

21 in these few slides is similar to the semi22 analytical approach that HI has developed to 
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1 look at part-load performance of pumps. So, 

2 hopefully, we are consistent on that, but it 

3 is certainly going to be very important that 

4 we develop representative curves for large 

5 market segments that pumps are sold into, to 

6 make sure that we get at least the baseline 

7 energy use characterized well. 

8 So, the purpose, again, is to 

9 identify how pumps are actually operated by 

10 users in representative market segments and, 

11 then, vary the efficiency of those pumps, 

12 based on those load profiles or those specific 

13 applications, to determine energy savings in 

14 the field. 

15 And we estimate that annual energy 

16 consumption, again, for baseline and higher17 efficiency designs. There are a lot of issues 

18 that we sort of talked about. 

19 One is that there is a lot of duty 

20 profiles that are expected to vary across the 

21 equipment classes. Also, as we know and as 

22 has been stated, pumps are often designed to 
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1 exceed the flow rate capacity and head 

2 requirements as an engineering precaution. 

3 And to what extent is that done? And what is 

4 an average operating point for that pump? It 

5 may not be exactly the best operating point, 

6 or the design point even, all the time. 

7 And then, pumps are often sized 

8 based on peak load and knowing how often that 

9 pump actually even operates at peak load. We 

10 are going to have to have some data that helps 

11 us make estimates about that. 

12 So, here is the just fundamental 

13 framework for an approach that we have talked 

14 about. I think it sounds similar to what HI 

15 was proposing where we would define for each 

16 application - and some common applications 

17 that we might consider are wastewater and the 

18 construction industry, HVAC, cooling towers, 

19 food processing. We can talk about what the 

20 most representative market segments or 

21 applications are for particular pump classes. 

22 And then, for those applications, for those 
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1 pumps, define load profiles based on the flow 

2 rate and the head throughout the year. 

3 So, you can see there is a flow 

4 rate, a head, and operating hours at that 

5 point. And then, we would calculate that AEC 

6 for each perhaps pump class in each 

7 applications. And it becomes this big 

8 exponential, as it were, analysis. 

9 And then, we try to take account 

10 for the efficiency of the pumping system in 

11 this analysis. So, for pumps that are sold as 

12 pumps alone, we will have to assume, make some 

13 assumptions about what type and efficiency of 

14 motors and if they have controls that were 

15 added after market, et cetera, et cetera. 

16 So, this is really getting to how 

17 we justify standards levels and decide how 

18 much energy we are going to try and save, but 

19 there is going to be a lot of work developing 

20 these profiles. And so, I certainly hope that 

21 the manufacturers can help us get that right. 

22 MR. STARR: Yes, I was just 
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1 thinking your equation should probably -- I 

2 think maybe your transmission one is trying to 

3 capture this, the VFD efficiency. But if it 

4 is not that, I don't know, transmission could 

5 also be, depending on whether it is direct6 drive or belt, or whatever, but I don't know 

7 if you were trying to capture that, but it 

8 probably needs to be in there. 

9 And then, also, the efficiency 

10 changes based upon where the VFD load is. If 

11 it is more fully loaded, it is more efficient. 

12 If it is less loaded, it is less efficient. 

13 MS. WIDDER: Right. 

14 MR. STARR: So, that is another 

15 element in there. 

16 MS. WIDDER: You know, just to tie 

17 this all together, but not to make it too 

18 complex, it is going to get back to what 

19 metric we have to start with pump efficiency, 

20 so how we rate pumps, how we define their 

21 efficiency, at what flow rates, full or part 

22 load, and then, how we use those rated 
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1 efficiencies to extrapolate to a more 

2 annualized energy use. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 

4 MS. WIDDER: Yes, go ahead. 

5 MR. FERNSTROM: I was going to say 

6 you might argue that the VFD efficiency is a 

7 function of the control system efficiency 

8 because it is controlling the mother. 

9 MS. WIDDER: Yes, directly to your 

10 question, I believe the control system 

11 efficiency -- 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

14 Yes, I think on this one, because 

15 you are looking at the non-electric systems as 

16 well, you are going to have to add an 

17 indicator for like a fossil fuel and turbine 

18 in terms of some of this equation as well for 

19 those applications. 

20 And in terms of the VFD, the 

21 control system, again, just thinking of the 

22 VSD or VFD, is that the efficiency of the 
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1 driver, the efficiency of the motor after -- 

2 it is really how it affects the motor, the 

3 pump motor efficiency, not the VFD efficiency, 

4 right? 

5 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. Just to make 

6 sure I understand your question, so we are 

7 looking at the motor efficiency, which may be 

8 a function of the VFD efficiency? 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then, could 

10 incorporate the N sub C. 

11 MS. WIDDER: Right, right. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because the VFD is 

13 having an impact on the motor efficiency. 

14 MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes. That is 

15 certainly true. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And then, I guess 

17 the other thing would be -- again, this is all 

18 generic -- but there is going to be a control 

19 system energy usage that is going to be 

20 separate from the motor. There is going to be 

21 a control system, there is going to be extra 

22 kilowatt hours just of the control by itself 
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1 regardless of what is happening with the pump. 

2 So, there is an extra, I will say, constant or 

3 something in there to account for that. 

4 MS. WIDDER: Right, right. 

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 

6 MS. WIDDER: And that will have to 

7 certainly be part of -- 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: For the extended 

9 ones. 

10 MS. WIDDER: If we are going to 

11 account for the efficiency, we also have to 

12 account for the VFD energy use, yes. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thanks. Thanks. 

14 MS. WIDDER: Definitely. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 

16 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, another way 

17 of saying that is, with this particular 

18 extended product category, we are talking 

19 about potential standby power. 

20 MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum. 

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It is not just 

22 standby. 
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1 This is Steve Rosenstock. 

2 Yes, it is not just standby; it is 

3 active as well. 

4 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go now to the 

6 comment boxes. 

7 MS. WIDDER: Yes, and this will 

8 come up a lot. You will hear about this more. 

9 But now we have some preliminary requests for 

10 comments that will at least help us get 

11 started on developing the dataset we will need 

12 to understand energy use of pumps in the 

13 field. 

14 DOE requests input on a lot of 

15 things, recommendations for identifying those 

16 high-volume applications, those representative 

17 applications that we can use to develop 

18 profiles. We are not going to get every 

19 application of every pump, but what suite of 

20 profiles would be representative enough to 

21 give us a good picture? 

22 Recommendations on data sources, 
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1 and they could be application-specific or 

2 market-level. And we can make those estimates 

3 work together to try to verify our analysis. 

4 DOE requests inputs on ways to 

5 characterize pump sizing and selection 

6 practices for different equipment classes. 

7 So, maybe pumps are more regularly oversized 

8 in particular applications. We want to 

9 account for that in this analysis. 

10 And the last, 7.5, is requesting 

11 comment on the nominal duty profiles to 

12 consider in the rulemaking. So, perhaps there 

13 are some applications that can be rolled up 

14 and have more representative duty profiles. 

15 And this HI nominal assessment that they have 

16 done, nominal analysis of EEI, I think it is, 

17 might be appropriate for those nominal duty 

18 profiles. 

19 MR. McKINSTRY: Just as a bit of 

20 information for you, when the EU looked at all 

21 these different load profiles, they found that 

22 the load profile didn't really make a whole 
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1 lot of difference. 

2 MS. WIDDER: And that would be 

3 wonderful if we found the same thing. 

4 (Laughter.) 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Now Louis. That was 

6 Dave. Louis? 

7 MR. STARR: So, the last thing is 

8 Item 7-4, the other thing you might think 

9 about, there is a certain amount of oversizing 

10 that happens as kind of good engineering 

11 practices. 

12 MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum. 

13 MR. STARR: Design, you know, is 10 

14 percent more than break horsepower you want. 

15 But the other element that happens 

16 is, once you have selected the motor, there is 

17 never a 2.3 horsepower motor. It is either 2 

18 or 3. And so, even if you just did a random 

19 analysis of sticking in numbers, because the 

20 operating system points on systems are random. 

21 And therefore, if you start sticking in 

22 numbers, you can actually start to see there 
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1 is inherently a certain amount of oversizing, 

2 and then you are doing your break horsepower 

3 oversizing. So, you are getting two elements 

4 that are playing there together. 

5 That is why the discussion of using 

6 a VFD, even on a constant load application, 

7 can actually save power, just by being able to 

8 dial that system in when you actually know 

9 what the system losses really are. 

10 MS. WIDDER: Right. 

11 MR. STARR: And so, there is a lot 

12 of value there. 

13 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Bruce? 

15 MR. LUNG: Just to kind of 

16 piggyback on that, there is another little 

17 comment I would like to make on this 7-4. 

18 There are also times where you could have a 

19 manufacturing plant that, properly sized, it 

20 pumps for a given application, but over time 

21 the end-use requirements may have declined. 

22 But, because they focus on production and, 
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1 then, they switch production equipment, they 

2 leave the existing cross-cutting stuff in 

3 place. This is true for pumps as well as for 

4 compressors and some other type of equipment. 

5 So, you could have a situation 

6 where, because they don't take account of the 

7 true end-use needs, they keep oversized pumps 

8 in place; whereas, at the beginning the pumps 

9 were properly sized. And they end up 

10 diverting the flow, so they have to keep 

11 operating that BEP. 

12 MS. WIDDER: And that certainly 

13 could be the case, to the extent that we have 

14 data about how prevalent that practice is and 

15 in what particular market segments. That is 

16 how we would be able to account for that in 

17 our analysis. Just anecdotally noting that 

18 that sometimes occurs, it is difficult for us 

19 to incorporate. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman? 

21 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. You and Dave 

22 should check with Graham Parker on the load 
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1 shapes. We have all the ELCAP stuff that was 

2 put up on the web. So, all the hourly data is 

3 out there now. 

4 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 

5 MR. ECKMAN: So, I don't know; 

6 there is lots of commercial. I don't think 

7 there is any industrial, but there is lots of 

8 commercial. And we can also run down some 

9 industrial load shapes -- 

10 MS. WIDDER: Yes, yes. 

11 MR. ECKMAN: -- particularly for 

12 food processing and irrigation. 

13 MS. WIDDER: And that often is a 

14 ripe data source for us. 

15 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Well, Graham 

16 knows where it is at now. 

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom. 

19 MR. FERNSTROM: So, I would like to 

20 go back to swimming pools as an example, even 

21 though they are not a subject of this 

22 rulemaking. And that is, for commercial 
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1 pools, the Health and Safety Codes require 

2 that pool pumps be designed to pump against 60 

3 feet of head at their design flow, when in 

4 reality the actual head they see is rarely in 

5 excess of 15 feet. So, there is an example of 

6 built-in overdesign. 

7 MS. WIDDER: Uh-hum. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis? 

9 MR. STARR: In terms of oversizing 

10 and information, I think it is Evan Mills 

11 with, I think it is California Energy 

12 Commission, but they do actually have numbers 

13 on kind of what approximately - from 

14 retrocommissioning - in terms of what the 

15 oversizing is. So, they can kind of give you, 

16 because they did a bit of a study, I think on 

17 238 samples or something. So, there is 

18 information out there. I will probably try to 

19 look for it. But Evan Mills is -- 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So, let's scan these 

21 Request for Comment boxes one time before we 

22 move on, make sure we have covered what we 
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1 can. 

2 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Okay. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now we are 

4 moving on. 

5 MS. WIDDER: Moving on, we actually 

6 have another page of Requests for Comments. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. I know that. 

8 (Laughter.) 

9 MS. WIDDER: Can't wait. 

10 This is related to -- and this came 

11 up earlier -- about coming up with our 

12 baseline assessment of energy use, so that we 

13 can, then, add on the impact of any standards 

14 that were to be set. 

15 So, for that, we will need 

16 information about the current penetration of 

17 VSDs. And again, that may vary by application 

18 or type of pump. And to the extent it does, 

19 we will need information on that. 

20 We just really want, in order to 

21 understand how standards will impact the 

22 market and impact energy use, we need to 
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1 understand first how pumps are currently 

2 impacting energy use. And so, any data about 

3 that -- I think we don't need to accept more 

4 comments on that. 

5 Comment on the recommendation on 

6 the range and number of sizes over which the 

7 analysis should be carried out. So, this 

8 analysis could actually get very complex since 

9 there is a number of specific speed 

10 applications where the same pump could be sold 

11 into any number of different applications. 

12 And to think about looking at each one would 

13 be nearly impossible. And so, trying to 

14 characterize what are the representative, 

15 maybe a high, a low, and a middle, maybe 5 or 

16 10 representative duty profiles and speeds 

17 that we could apply our analysis to and get a 

18 pretty good picture. So, information about 

19 that. 

20 And we are requesting comment on 

21 establishing the mean value and the ranges of 

22 likely values for some of those efficiencies. 
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1 And also, to the extent that they are 

2 dependent on one another, we will want to take 

3 account for that, by receiving comment on that 

4 dependency. And we are looking for ranges of 

5 those values because we probably will do 

6 sensitivity around some of those ranges. 

7 So, that is the extent of this 

8 comment. I don't know if there is other 

9 information. We will probably just need to go 

10 and consider and we will accept written 

11 comments, Doug. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So, then, now we are 

13 moving on. 

14 Thank you, Sarah 

15 And back to Alison. 

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Thank you. 

17 So, we are going to move on to the 

18 life-cycle cost and payback period analysis, 

19 which is very related to the energy use 

20 analysis. It is from the customer's 

21 perspective. 

22 The standards usually have the 
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1 effect of increasing purchase price and 

2 decreasing operating cost. So, the LCC is 

3 basically looking at those relationships, the 

4 customer price plus the sum of annual 

5 operating cost. 

6 Again, it is customer perspective, 

7 and it is always the difference between a 

8 baseline and the standard level. And we also 

9 look at payback period in this analysis. 

10 So, the center of this approach is 

11 to look at the pump selection process. So, 

12 basically, matching pump duty points with pump 

13 equipment. And it is based on the 

14 distribution of equipment efficiencies 

15 expected for the compliance year. So, some 

16 customers will not be affected by the 

17 standard, and the LCC accounts for that. 

18 Again, it aggregates the annual 

19 energy consumption over the pump's lifetime, 

20 and it uses probability distributions to 

21 characterize operating costs and other 

22 parameters. And it is all run using a Monte 
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1 Carlo simulation to look at a lot of the 

2 distributions and determine the percent of 

3 customers benefitting from, being burdened by, 

4 or not being affected by the standard. 

5 This is a little visual 

6 representation of the approach. So, you can 

7 see at the center is the pump selection box. 

8 We are basically going to match duty points of 

9 pumps with the pumps themselves and, also, 

10 motors. 

11 And then, we will use the energy 

12 use analysis that Sarah just discussed to get 

13 the annual energy consumption and combine that 

14 with other parameters, including lifetime, 

15 discount rate, energy price, potentially 

16 efficiency degradation factor over time, and 

17 installation cost to arrive at the final life18 cycle cost. 

19 So, I will just discuss a little 

20 bit of these inputs. So, installation costs, 

21 labor, and overhead, and other miscellaneous 

22 materials and parts. We will look at energy 
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1 prices by customer sector, including looking 

2 at energy tariffs, focusing on the EIA's 

3 Annual Energy Outlook to estimate future 

4 energy prices over time, and we may consider 

5 reactive power prices. 

6 Ideally, we also will include the 

7 maintenance and repair costs in the LCC. We 

8 expect that they won't change with incremental 

9 increases in efficiency, but may potentially 

10 change with significant improvements, and we 

11 are interested in information on that. 

12 We also will look at equipment 

13 lifetime. DOE believes the average lifetime 

14 is about 10 to 15 years with a max around 25. 

15 However, this depends on various things, such 

16 as higher values of pump head, horsepower and 

17 speed, or higher values of temperature. In 

18 addition, some pumps are basically thrown away 

19 when they break; whereas, others have repair 

20 cycles that may be repeated. 

21 And finally, DOE will look at 

22 discount rates for commercial and industrial 
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1 users. 

2 So, this Request for Comments on a 

3 variety of these parameters, including 

4 installation cost, electricity prices, repair 

5 costs lifetime, any data on degradation of 

6 efficiency over time, and approaches for 

7 estimating discount rates. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

10 EEI. 

11 Just a comment on 8-2. In your 

12 approach, you said that DOE will also survey 

13 reactive power prices. And I was kind of 

14 curious about why you might do that, because 

15 that only comes into play if the entire 

16 facility, the power factor for the entire 

17 facility, goes below the requirement of the 

18 utility where they have the reactive meters to 

19 check on power factors. 

20 You know, most motors and drives 

21 are designed to make sure that they don't 

22 cause power factors to degrade. So, reactive 
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1 power prices can add to the cost to the end2 users, but especially large commercial and 

3 industrial, they always make sure that they 

4 meet the requirement. So, I personally don't 

5 necessarily see the need of why you would have 

6 to check on reactive power prices, unless you 

7 know that some of the technologies considered 

8 would definitely guarantee that the building 

9 power factor would go below a certain level. 

10 MS. WILLIAMS: We will take that 

11 into account. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom? 

13 MR. FERNSTROM: That caught my 

14 attention, too, reactive power cost. And the 

15 way we do it, over, let's call it, an 

16 objective power factor of 85 percent, you get 

17 a credit on your bill; below that, you get a 

18 penalty on your bill. So, no matter where you 

19 are, power factor makes a difference in the 

20 customer's bill. 

21 And no matter where the whole plant 

22 is, any individual contributor makes a 
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1 difference in the whole plant's power factor. 

2 It may not be one-for-one. It may be diluted, 

3 but it makes a difference. 

4 So, I think that you definitely 

5 ought to consider the effect or the cost of 

6 reactive power for consumers because it is a 

7 real cost. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

10 Yes, again, I appreciate that. 

11 There are other utilities that I am aware of 

12 -- we did a survey; actually, we did it for 

13 our national key account customers, a survey 

14 of investor-owned utilities. That is going 

15 back several years. 

16 And for the most part, again, there 

17 are a couple of utilities that have credit 

18 versus penalty based on the level of where the 

19 entire building is at the entrance to the 

20 building, basically, but there are a lot of 

21 utilities that also have -- if you are below 

22 it, you get penalized; if you are above it, 
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1 you don't get penalized. So, you don't get 

2 credit for going above the power factor, but 

3 you do get penalized if you go below it. So, 

4 it can make an incremental difference, but is 

5 it enough to push you into the penalty side? 

6 If it is every single pump in the building, 

7 maybe; if it is an individual pump, then 

8 probably not, I would say. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary? 

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So, I think 

11 we have two competing arguments here. One is 

12 maybe you ought to treat it the way that it is 

13 prevalent in this country among the most 

14 utilities. On the other hand, even for those 

15 that don't give a credit above a certain 

16 level, it still has an impact on their cost, 

17 and they are simply distributing those costs 

18 differently among those customers. So, it 

19 does represent a cost to society, no matter 

20 which way it goes. 

21 And I had a comment on degradation. 

22 That is, we ought to be looking at the 
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1 degradation of the higher-efficiency pump 

2 relative to the degradation of the standard3 efficiency pump. 

4 So, that should only be a factor if 

5 we think, for some reason, the higher6 efficiency pump is going to have a greater 

7 degradation than pumps in general. And it 

8 might work the other way, where the higher9 efficiency pump has less degradation. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

11 MR. STARR: If you are going to 

12 look at that reactive power, you should 

13 probably be looking at the demand charge side, 

14 too, I would think. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Did we hear anything 

16 about installation costs or repair costs yet? 

17 I don't think so. No comments on those? 

18 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for 

19 Hydraulic Institute. 

20 We didn't prepare a response on 

21 these. So, we will probably be able to give 

22 you some information in our written response. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That is 

2 helpful. Okay. 

3 Then, we are moving on. 

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, the next 

5 analysis is the shipments analysis, which 

6 serves as the foundation for both the national 

7 impact analysis and the manufacturer impact 

8 analysis that Dan discussed earlier. 

9 So, the purpose is pretty 

10 straightforward. We want to project future 

11 shipments by equipment class, so that we can 

12 have the proper baseline from which to 

13 calculate energy savings and other 

14 information. 

15 We will look at a number of data 

16 sources, anything that we can find. 

17 Typically, DOE projects shipments for a 30-

18 year period, beginning on the expected 

19 compliance date of a standard. DOE will 

20 attempt to tie growth indices from industrial 

21 and commercial sectors to the shipments 

22 projection. And in some cases, the shipments 
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1 projection in the standards case may differ 

2 from that in the base case because of changes 

3 in purchase price or operating cost. 

4 So, we request comments on the 

5 shipments methodology as well as historical 

6 shipments and bookings data for the equipment 

7 classes and any information available on how 

8 the standards might impact shipments for the 

9 standards case as compared to the base case. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments at this 

11 time? 

12 (No response.) 

13 No comments at this time. 

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Then, moving 

15 on to the national impact analysis, the 

16 purpose is twofold: to derive national energy 

17 savings and net present value. Where the LCC 

18 focuses on customers, this is at a national 

19 level. 

20 So, we will look at the annual 

21 series of both energy and economic impacts. 

22 Again, as I mentioned, it is based on the 
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1 shipments model. It also includes costs and 

2 energy use per unit from the LCC. It involves 

3 efficiency trends over time. And all this is 

4 aggregated over the years. And so, we will 

5 report both the national energy savings in 

6 both primary and full-fuel cycle savings as 

7 well as the national customer NPV, and it 

8 takes into account discount rates. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't see the 

10 comment box. 

11 MS. WILLIAMS: I have no comment 

12 box, but feel free to comment. 

13 (Laughter.) 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

15 (No response.) 

16 We are going to keep going. 

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So, the 

18 remainder of the analyses are for the NOPR 

19 analyses, not the preliminary. So, in the 

20 interest of time, we could choose to not go 

21 over those today. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you just 
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1 mention them and see if they are familiar? 

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: These are what they 

4 call further downstream, that is, later. 

5 Charles? 

6 MR. LLENZA: Let me just mention 

7 this section is just basically we lay out the 

8 foundation and the framework, and then the 

9 preliminary analysis. And then, at the NOPR 

10 stage, we actually construct a very 

11 comprehensive TSD with all this information. 

12 So, what you see in the NOPR part 

13 here is, again, a part of a process here. You 

14 are putting the frosting on the cake, as I 

15 call it, and the candles. And so, it is a lot 

16 of detail, but it is also been built up 

17 through the prior two processes, and lots of 

18 work, by the way. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So, just take a few 

20 moments to list them. 

21 MR. LLENZA: Yes, just go through 

22 this. 
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. So, we have 

2 the customer subgroup, which is basically just 

3 the LCC for certain disproportionately4 impacted subgroups. 

5 We do an emissions analysis for 

6 several of these emissions, you can see here, 

7 and, also, monetize some of them, currently, 

8 CO2 and NOx. 

9 We do a utility impact analysis to 

10 look at avoided capacity. 

11 An employment impact analysis. 

12 While the MIA looks at direct employment 

13 impacts, this looks at indirect ones resulting 

14 from shifts in consumer expenditures. 

15 And we, finally, do a regulatory 

16 impact analysis that looks at the potential 

17 for other non-regulatory alternatives to 

18 affect the energy efficiency of pumps. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: So, that concludes 

20 the PowerPoints that we have been trying to go 

21 through. 

22 I know, we are not quite done yet. 
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1 (Laughter.) 

2 But, in the interest of being 

3 efficient, I am going to hand out these 

4 evaluation forms now, so you can ponder how 

5 you will fill them out. 

6 (Laughter.) 

7 Tom, yes? 

8 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I am going to get 

9 on my saw again. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Before you do, 

11 though -- (laughter) -- 

12 MR. ECKMAN: Very quickly. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: -- just reminder 

14 that now is an opportunity for anybody that 

15 wishes to, to make final comments, brief, 

16 summary comments, anything that didn't get 

17 covered sufficiently during the day. 

18 Tom Eckman, you are up. 

19 MR. ECKMAN: Yes. Before starting, 

20 I don't know, maybe a year or two years ago, 

21 DOE began monetizing the emissions. Those 

22 prices cover a wide range of costs. They use 
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1 the intergovernmental estimate of that. That 

2 is wonderful. But they neglect to monetize 

3 the cost of avoided new electric capacity, 

4 which are real costs paid by real ratepayers. 

5 And the social cost of carbon, we 

6 are going to pay sometime; I don't know what 

7 it is. But the reality is, when we avoid 

8 plants by doing these things, which is the 

9 purpose of doing these things, it saves people 

10 money. And I would encourage the DOE, once 

11 again, to take a look at that and try to 

12 monetize the cost of avoided capacity that is 

13 affected by these rules. Whether they are in 

14 individual rules or cumulatively, it is 

15 significant, but we have never figured out how 

16 much it saved us. And it is an important 

17 number to know. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve? 

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

20 Yes, I am going to go back, also, 

21 to the emissions analysis. There is a lot 

22 going on, and it will impact the analysis, 
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1 especially because for this analysis, for this 

2 rulemaking, we are talking about a rule that 

3 is finalized in 2016 with standards that go 

4 into effect, at the earliest, in 2019. 

5 At the current time, EPA is about 

6 to finalize CO2 emission standards for new 

7 power plants. They are also working on a rule 

8 for CO2 on existing power plants. I don't 

9 know how soon that will be out, but probably 

10 within the next few years. 

11 The EPA is also about to finalize 

12 rules on mercury at power plants, which will 

13 go into effect by 2016. Basically, they will 

14 get three; 2016, 2017 is the timeframe before 

15 this rule goes into effect. 

16 So, my point is and, also, I have 

17 had issues, and I have discussed this, so 

18 mercury will be capped. Of course, nitrogen 

19 oxides, there has been an issue because the 

20 monetized nitrogen oxide seems to be based on 

21 a study that was done in 2001. Okay. 

22 And they keep it changing it to 
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1 reflect current dollar values. But, again, if 

2 you look at the emissions, look at EPA data, 

3 nitrous oxides emissions from the electric 

4 power sector since 2001 have gone down well 

5 over 50 percent. So, the monetized value has 

6 been inflated while the actual emissions have 

7 gone down. Therefore, there seems to be 

8 confluence, a disconnect there in terms of the 

9 value versus the actual what is happening out 

10 there. 

11 Also, as part of the analysis, 

12 which I have agreed with, it is wherever 

13 emissions have been capped like SO2 or NOx, 

14 that basically there is zero impact from 

15 efficiency upgrades because of the way the 

16 caps work. 

17 Well, DOE is not taking into 

18 account their CO2 caps in New England, and now 

19 one just started in California, starting this 

20 year. So, again, that has not been taken into 

21 account, into the analysis. In my view, 

22 eventually, when it is monetized, it is 
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1 overstating the impact because it is not 

2 taking into account the significant amount of 

3 the caps that are going into effect here. 

4 So, I will write some of this down, 

5 but I believe that changes are significant and 

6 that some of this monetization is overstating 

7 the eventual domestic benefit of the emissions 

8 reductions. 

9 Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

11 So, now, yes, please. Your name? 

12 MR. LEMMOND: Jon Lemmond, AHRI. 

13 One quick thing. AHRI is 

14 supportive of the positions held by HI. 

15 That's all. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 

17 you. 

18 I have a final invitation for final 

19 remarks before I turn it back to Charles to go 

20 over all of the details surrounding submission 

21 of comments and all of that. 

22 MR. FERNSTROM: Great job. Thank 
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1 you. 

2 MR. LLENZA: And I will be brief on 

3 that. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary, say it again? 

5 MR. FERNSTROM: Good job. Thank 

6 you. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, thank you. 

8 Thanks to all of you. 

9 Final comments, additional final 

10 comments? I don't want anyone to be closed 

11 out here. 

12 (No response.) 

13 Then, my final comment is to thank 

14 you all. It was a very, very constructive 

15 meeting today, a lot of really good content. 

16 We really covered a lot of ground, especially 

17 the new participants in this rather 

18 complicated regulatory process generally and a 

19 very complicated subject, and traversed 

20 adequately, competently as the day went on. 

21 So, many thanks to all of you and for your 

22 endurance; I appreciate that as well. 
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1 Back to Charles. 

2 MR. LLENZA: Yes, thanks, everybody 

3 for attending. I know this has been a little 

4 bit long and winded maybe. 

5 But I also just want to put one 

6 thought in everybody's mind. We have a 

7 regulatory process. We have an obligation to 

8 fulfill our regulatory mandate via a process 

9 that we have that is pretty rigorous and that 

10 is inclusive of your comments. 

11 I also want to make sure that you 

12 understand that the consensus process may 

13 provide you alternatives that you don't have 

14 through the regulatory process. And we sort 

15 of have to fill in all the boxes and cross all 

16 the "T's" and dot all the "I's". In the 

17 consensus process, you may have different 

18 flexibility. 

19 I have provided a website for the 

20 ASRAC Committee. It is something that 

21 probably would be beneficial to bring this up 

22 to ASRAC and to see if you could explore 
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1 alternative methods for being out of the box 

2 of our regulatory process in terms of 

3 achieving kind of the same objectives, which 

4 is saving energy through improvements in 

5 eliminating the bad actors in terms of pumps 

6 in the U.S. economy. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: If they wish to 

8 interact or pursue ASRAC as something to 

9 consider, how would they do that? 

10 MR. LLENZA: Yes, there is a 

11 website. I already sent a website link, and I 

12 think it has been distributed. So, feel free 

13 to attend. I think there is a webinar on it, 

14 too. So, you probably attend remotely. You 

15 don't have to necessarily travel. And they 

16 have a comment period, just like any process 

17 here at DOE. So, you are more than welcome to 

18 send in your comments, written comments, 

19 within their time limits. 

20 So, I just want to again thank you 

21 for attending. This has been long and winded. 

22 I am not going to go everything. The 
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1 extension of the comment period closes May the 

2 2nd. And then, here is the process, 

3 basically, on how to submit comments. 

4 Again, thanks, and safe travels 

5 back. 

6 (Whereupon, at 4:42 p.m., the 

7 meeting was adjourned.) 

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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31:13 47:6,7

83:12 146:1

algorithm 155:9

302:22

align 91:16 108:13

121:8

aligned 94:7

138:11 170:11

248:11 257:11

aligning 61:19

85:12 250:19

alignment 69:20

86:5

aligns 70:3 122:15

123:12 196:5

alike 186:6

Alison 3:5 6:5 8:15

10:12 16:10 63:15

63:17,19,20 76:8

76:9 77:5 82:22

83:2 84:1 88:21

88:22 89:20

120:14,16 121:22

128:7 129:5

131:21 132:9

145:6 150:6

161:11 162:1

172:17 178:4

181:14 186:22

210:1 228:19

243:4 247:1 248:6

250:7 283:17

323:5 326:14

336:10 389:15

Alliance 2:11,21

15:19 32:4 108:12

143:16

ALLISON 2:17

allocate 368:1

allocation 250:2

allocations 244:19

allow 112:18

134:10 158:19

309:13

allowable 187:18

allowed 139:14

256:9

allows 328:2

alluded 349:15

alterations 135:21

alternative 213:14

219:19 236:18

410:1

alternatively

137:21

alternatives 24:8

402:17 409:13

ambient 171:6

amenable 49:22

amended 37:17

America 23:6

American 1:23 3:2

26:5

amortize 330:10

amortized 330:17

amortizing 345:8

amount 36:19 88:8

109:4 112:4 156:3

168:3 197:14

219:6 230:2

308:15 364:17

382:9 383:1 407:2

amplification

200:17

amplifications

137:1

analyses 8:14 10:20

19:7 32:2 45:2

243:6,12 315:22

316:2,12 337:12

337:12 343:8

346:12 352:19

355:7 400:18,19

analysis 9:11,14,21

10:2,12,17 18:19

18:21,21,22 19:1

19:5,5,6 38:2,5,7

38:11,19,20 40:22

41:1,5,13,18,19

42:7,13,18,20,22

43:1,3,18,22 44:1

45:15 54:4 85:2

92:11,13 109:13

140:12 159:5

201:13 206:20,22

214:6 243:15

272:11,18 274:2

277:4 279:13

280:1 285:6

289:18 305:14

311:14 312:14,15

314:20,21 315:4,6

315:12 316:3,4,5

321:15 334:21

336:4,18,19,20

337:4 338:5,13

345:1,3 348:20

350:7,13 351:16

351:20 352:1

353:3 354:6

356:16 358:11,11

358:20 359:8,14

359:15 361:1,15

361:19 364:12

365:3 368:14

369:22 370:5

371:14,19,20,22

372:14,17 375:8

375:11 381:3,9,16

382:19 384:17

388:7,8,17 389:18

389:20 390:9

391:12 398:5,5,7

398:8 399:15

401:9 402:5,9,11

402:16 404:21,22

405:1 406:11,21

Analysis/Energy

10:2

analysts 49:12 50:9

53:9,10,20 54:2,8

320:1

analytical 34:22

309:15 310:16

311:22 372:22

analytics 350:6

analyze 272:13

273:4 365:6

analyzed 255:14

276:14

analyzer 240:11

analyzers 235:9,10

analyzing 325:3

Anderson 260:12

and/or 33:11 94:13

183:17

anecdotally 384:17

annual 98:15

373:15 390:4,18

391:13 392:3

399:20

annualized 377:2

annually 98:18

ANSI 23:8 25:1

58:15 64:20 73:3

74:18 75:11 96:1

131:22 132:6

161:20 185:16

209:5 225:19

ANSI-pump

242:10

ANSI/HI 82:8 83:5

95:6,11 135:14,16

135:19,22 187:18

248:11 259:21

answer 36:1 70:8

70:22 71:2 76:13

87:8,12 148:5,11

194:17 199:12

211:17 249:10

264:22 268:19,20

287:1 308:4

323:20 355:2

363:12 365:19

366:4

answered 20:3

274:10 324:22

answering 234:11

answers 71:14

355:1

anticipate 200:21

antitrust 347:1

anybody 17:19

19:11 37:12 76:20

136:21 257:13

403:14

anydifferences

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anyway 215:16

329:7

apartment 108:1

108:19

API 73:3 74:19

75:12

appear 203:6

appendices 223:20

appendix 223:16

223:19 225:8

227:19 237:3,8

applaud 173:14

appliance 2:12 4:6

4:18 12:20 15:2

26:12 56:12

302:18,19

appliances 109:8

applicability

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applicable 66:6

96:3 97:17 189:6

234:6 361:21

367:15

application 67:15

78:4,6,11 80:19

101:12 103:10

109:21,21 141:8

141:19 150:10,22

155:2,7 157:10

165:15 168:16
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appropriate 93:22

183:6,21 185:10

189:21 204:20,22

222:4,13 223:8

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237:2,19 258:14

259:18 261:4,7

274:16 290:19

304:12 365:12

367:21 381:17

approval 114:8,9

approved 350:9

approximately

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174:17 244:7

273:14 386:13

aptly 352:14

AP1610 58:14

Aquastat 306:5,14

area 13:17 225:11

273:20

areas 62:7 75:11

91:14 291:4

338:14

argue 377:6

arguments 396:11

Arnold 2:19 222:16

222:17 223:1

234:20,21 237:13

240:6 241:21

259:20 276:22

Arnold's 239:4

arrayed 366:15

arrive 327:4

391:17

Artemis 2:17

article 238:8

ASAP 32:4

Asdal 1:17 4:13

15:14,15 22:18,19

ASHRAE 108:16

333:4 349:17

350:3,3,8,9

asked 79:21 83:5

96:19 102:9

253:13

asking 51:10 57:19

72:4 103:22 107:1

108:6 130:19

165:9 188:8 210:3

246:22 247:6

324:19

aspect 167:4

230:17 324:5

aspects 176:17

273:8

ASRAC 13:18

51:19 52:17

409:20,22 410:8

assemblies 86:3,9

assembly 105:14

105:16 342:12

assertions 41:10

assess 352:2 356:1

assessment 8:15

18:19 243:16

245:13 246:12,14

250:13 296:18,19

381:15 387:12

assist 131:1,5 334:8

associated 23:14

24:20 69:1 218:18

228:14 229:7

233:11 273:5

292:9 303:5

304:14 317:18

331:10 343:16

360:15

associates 196:12

Association 1:18

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117:17

assume 206:20

207:1,6 375:12

assumes 371:6

assumptions

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assure 74:13

attached 153:2

attempt 25:17

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attempted 244:17

attend 57:4 130:17

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attended 17:4

attending 409:3

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attention 394:14

audit 242:2

authority 23:7 47:9

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authorized 47:11

177:7

authorizes 37:9

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automatic 152:8

availability 39:12

121:15 127:20

131:2 312:21

available 20:11

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141:19 144:18

174:14,15 218:21

221:22 244:12,14

245:18 246:16

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327:14 337:22

361:8,22 370:1

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avenue 1:10 137:5

average 189:3,4

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axial 81:14 212:6

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axial/propeller

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A-F-T-E-R-N-O-...

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B

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bearings 74:16

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beg 146:4

began 403:21

beginning 23:2

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behalf 22:20 31:5

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behave 58:16

believe 33:3,17

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144:19 148:12

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210:21 212:17

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239:8 240:22

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184:10 190:3

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belt 376:6

belts 93:16

beneath 119:18

beneficial 160:13

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benefit 142:18

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168:17 270:13

298:6 320:13

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benefits 135:13

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benefitting 157:20

391:3

benzene 78:9

BEP 166:11 180:6

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BEPs 192:11 264:8

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Berkeley 2:7,9,17

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best 19:21 20:14

26:14 50:10 106:4

116:16,19 137:5

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180:5 181:5

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194:19 269:9

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327:19 332:9

334:9 342:20

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best-available

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Betsy 1:14 47:13,15

50:12,13 54:6,7

104:18,22 153:8,9

better 44:12 49:10

65:1 69:10 74:13

81:11 127:4 131:8

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164:18 206:4,7

259:14 276:19

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beyond 68:19 75:4

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big 167:21 198:22

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biggest 93:10

bill 341:17 394:17

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camel 260:19

candidates 32:20

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cantilever 73:5

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145:20 251:5,10

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155:13 190:21

194:20 196:1

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211:10 212:12,20

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262:18,19 263:15

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269:15 274:11

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289:21 291:18

292:14 295:14,14

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276:9 279:12,14

280:3,3 282:16,18

284:3,13,19,19

286:9 287:12,16

287:22 288:1,11

288:12,13 290:7

292:21 301:19

302:15 315:10,12

316:3,8 317:2,5

317:17 318:1,7

320:8,14 324:17

325:1,2,5 326:11

329:21 330:4,14

330:17 331:7

333:11 334:21

336:19,20,22

337:18 338:13

342:5,7,14,17

343:12 344:8,9,10

345:21 346:10,13

348:3,4 363:16,17

364:16 371:14,15

371:19 372:13

389:18 390:2,5

391:17,18 393:4

394:1,14 395:5,7

396:16,19 399:3

404:3,5,12

costing 282:21

costly 329:16

costs 19:4 41:21

114:1 190:5,6

229:9 273:5

280:16 284:16

286:21 287:22

288:10 289:6

292:9 301:22

317:12 320:10,12

320:17,20 321:15

324:1 325:4,14,21

327:10 330:11

331:7,10 336:4

341:7,7 342:4

343:4,10,13,16

344:3,5,6,11,13

344:15,15 345:4,7

346:15 347:19

359:1 362:9,10

367:22 368:1

390:21 391:20

392:7 393:5

396:17 397:16,16

400:1 403:22

404:4

cost-effective

270:22 280:12,17

280:21 324:20

cost-effectiveness

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337:4 371:16

cost-efficiency

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328:5

cost-justified

289:17 320:2

cost-justify 359:4

cost/benefit 323:18

Council 1:22,23 3:2

3:3 15:13,18

146:20

Counsel's 15:22

50:14

counterpoint 91:4

257:12

country 26:20

178:12 396:13

couple 52:6 147:19

155:22 251:1

283:21 284:1

286:22 291:7

332:20 333:21

395:17

coupled 81:12 97:1

97:4 129:17 141:1

245:9 251:21

272:21

couple-hundred-...

61:7

course 24:4 43:14

44:4 46:5 66:2

67:1 91:3 101:1

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315:17 405:18

courtesy 17:5

cover 13:6 53:9,10

59:22 60:2,17

87:9 119:4 266:1

290:2 403:22

coverage 5:3 18:9

32:12,21 55:10,11

55:16 60:6 68:19

68:19 84:4 88:18

88:19 92:6,9,14

108:5 120:21

133:10 136:5

covered 19:13

24:19 28:20 34:15

37:8 51:8,18 63:3

71:20 72:10 73:11

73:12 75:9,9 84:5

89:11,16 90:19

96:7 104:14 105:2

105:18 107:3,20

107:22 110:2

112:20,20 118:22

134:11 245:7

246:1 272:7 349:5

386:22 403:17

408:16

covering 26:2

58:13,15 83:20,21

89:6 93:18 102:12

245:8 265:22

273:20

covers 47:4 221:12

349:17

CO2 402:8 405:6,8

406:18

craft 229:13

crafted 86:16

create 23:22 78:16

85:20 189:3,9

198:13 200:2

201:20 203:10

233:21 291:11

296:11 309:22

created 189:9

creates 321:21

creating 61:4

341:17

credit 394:17

395:17 396:2,15

criteria 74:21

92:13 224:14,15
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cumulative 146:7

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cumulatively

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curiosity 336:3

curious 57:1 138:9

203:1 393:14

current 85:1 136:1

162:6 209:13

254:5,21 255:2

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387:16 405:5

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currently 55:12

84:4 89:3 133:7

140:15 159:13

219:14 232:7

251:8 316:22

327:2 361:20

388:1 402:7

curve 166:12 188:9

189:4 191:15

193:2,18 194:2

196:20,22 197:3,7

230:6 264:10,11

268:7 271:12

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315:13 318:9

curves 188:9,18

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268:5 315:17,21

317:6 326:5 373:4

customer 159:3

168:5,19 177:4,7

177:10,10 186:9

186:17,18,21

271:1 359:21

360:10,18,20

390:4,6 392:1

400:7 402:2

customers 168:16

169:22 188:1

235:3 240:14

242:1 312:21

332:11 334:8

390:16 391:3

395:13 396:18

399:18

customer's 389:20

394:20

cut 317:15

cutting 296:12

cycle 109:19

225:21 391:18

400:6

cycles 392:20

Cymbalsky 1:14

4:5 12:17,18,19

16:3,3 51:3,4,5

52:15 53:13 87:4

87:5,5 92:2,3

107:15,16 118:5

149:4,5,5,14

226:2,3,4 253:6,7

254:2,13

C-adjusted 208:3

C-factor 205:8

208:3 254:19

255:3 256:9,12

335:15

C-factors 255:18

262:3 263:16

C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S

4:1 5:1 6:1 7:1

8:1 9:1 10:1 11:1

C-value 206:13,15

206:16

C-values 203:9

206:18 207:10,18

D

daily 242:18

Dan 2:4 314:19

315:1 325:22

340:20,21 358:19

398:8

danced 301:2

Daniel 3:2,4 9:15

16:6

data 35:11 46:7,9

52:2 54:10 90:9

103:2 111:15

127:22 130:19,21

131:5 132:19

141:11,18 142:1

144:18 145:11,20

146:14 147:22

148:3,10 149:20

150:1,20 174:13

174:15 176:11,11

201:16 202:10

205:12,20 206:7

206:19 208:8,9

209:8,10,17,20

210:5,16 213:5

214:7 229:12

244:12,13,22

245:17 246:16

247:2,9,11 248:10

248:15,17,18,21

249:2,5,15,16

250:1,4 255:2,18

255:19 256:5

260:18 261:2

263:1 268:5,12

282:5,15,16,18

290:7 309:16

310:7 323:22

325:16 326:10,16

327:12,14,16

342:7 357:2 361:8

361:10 365:15

368:14 369:19

370:1 374:10

380:22 384:14

385:2,14 388:2

393:5 398:15

399:6 406:2

database 210:5

dataset 210:21,22

254:20 255:5

380:11

date 46:18 225:19

398:19

Dave 318:18,22

321:2,3 336:6

337:15 346:17,18

363:12 366:20,21

371:1,2 382:6

384:21

David 2:13 3:6

16:16 368:4,5

day 12:15 17:12

18:2 19:10 26:21

34:13 120:3 150:4

240:17 321:6

403:17 408:20

days 299:15

deadline 25:20

224:5

dead-on 285:21

deal 66:14 67:8

69:11 183:4

249:19 310:16

366:3

dealer 359:19

dealing 66:14 69:7

93:5 302:5

deals 25:8 296:10

dealt 249:18

decades 332:20

decade-and-a-half

233:1

December 56:14

decide 52:20

280:19 300:18

334:17 370:8

375:17

decided 51:13

76:14

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decision 241:19

309:17

decision-making

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declined 383:21

decreasing 390:2

deemed 66:15 67:9

defeating 188:11

188:15

defeats 114:3

Defense 3:3 15:18

define 58:1 62:20

63:1 78:13 107:2

108:5,17 111:22

116:2 125:3

134:14 136:2,3

162:11,17 194:10

238:2 292:14

300:20 301:6

308:11 326:6

374:15 375:1

376:20

defined 63:8 65:10

70:5 95:20 111:21

123:22 135:9

178:19 201:2

268:17 301:9,10

defines 65:8 182:5

242:2 257:8

defining 67:15

137:22 157:7

286:11

definitely 13:20

71:4,7,9 77:5 83:9

195:3 231:7,15

341:4 379:14

394:8 395:4

definition 58:9,9

60:8 62:21 63:5

65:11 76:3 78:5

96:14 106:19

108:14,21 135:22

137:9,12,15,16

138:10,21,22

139:10,13 150:13

255:5 300:18

305:10

definitions 58:4,7

60:5 76:12,14

107:4 133:6,8,12

133:14 134:9,17

134:22 135:5,14

135:17,19 136:6
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deliberateness

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demand 156:15

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dense 13:7

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Department 1:1,14

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11:3 12:5,9 13:13

15:22 20:19 21:11

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24:9,14 25:7,15

26:22 27:15,19

29:7 30:6 34:18

35:6,8,14 36:12

36:16,22 37:4,14

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39:17 40:13,17

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48:17 49:20 50:3

50:15 51:15 53:8

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55:18 56:6,10,12

57:17 71:21 79:15

82:10,20 88:7

91:3 92:18 106:18

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111:19 130:18

131:7 142:8,21

143:2,5 160:12

199:15 208:12,14

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231:22 233:20

267:18 314:7

318:12 321:18

338:4

Department's

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depend 363:7

dependency 389:4

dependent 389:2

depending 62:22

178:19 179:21

273:1 326:18

347:11 364:4

376:5

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105:13 148:20

268:16 392:15

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describe 161:12

219:4 372:6

described 95:6

97:8 218:10

239:18

describing 311:19

321:19

description 74:18

163:11 278:3

326:1

descriptions 82:11

82:12,17 248:12

252:19

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design 1:20 61:22

67:21 72:18 73:16

73:20 75:18 79:10

85:6,15 113:15

114:11 131:12

153:5,12,16 163:1

163:20 166:21

177:19 179:22

188:11 189:13

250:22 251:1

257:18 258:17

259:9 260:13,20

261:11,18 275:7

279:10 292:8

304:4 316:16,20

316:22 325:3

331:11 374:6

382:13 386:3

designed 37:17

58:2 60:10,11,15

60:16 67:2,19

73:18 74:8,11,15

75:20 77:13 78:3

78:9,15 91:17

112:13 116:15,17

116:18 117:13

154:5 291:18

299:4 373:22

386:2 393:21

designing 94:21

designs 74:21

80:21 327:15

343:2 373:17

design-wise 263:4

desired 28:8 155:5

desktop 127:11

destruction 235:13

detail 24:5 33:3,16

39:22 71:12,13

82:21 102:3

259:11 297:4

326:14 327:9

401:16

detailed 30:9 71:22

331:5

details 41:13 113:1

218:5 407:20

determination

52:13 107:11

134:11 258:18

determine 42:3

48:19 78:2 112:19

140:16 227:21

257:5 262:14

273:4 274:7 279:4

284:3 285:2

289:16 303:12

330:3 331:4 361:4

373:13 391:2

determined 265:21

285:8

determines 55:19

107:21

determining

284:13

develop 26:13

37:16 97:21 102:6

136:13,15 158:16

159:2 226:9

234:16 250:14

290:19 309:3

315:12,17,20

326:5 328:2

352:19 353:11

354:16 373:4

380:17

developed 38:10

133:11,14 179:5

202:9 223:3

372:22

developing 32:1

38:11 39:7 226:8

226:14 228:20

326:11 345:15

353:8 354:11

375:19 380:11

development 1:20

37:21 114:11

131:12 238:4

device 101:9

148:19 221:5

300:6,7 307:4,7

devices 177:3

Diagnostics 1:21

131:12

dial 383:8

dialog 49:12 50:9

diameter 137:18

139:9,12 212:13

212:15,16,18

223:13 281:20

282:7 283:9

diameters 214:3

Diego 15:9

diesel 174:18 276:4

differ 111:10 399:1

difference 63:3,7

65:9 97:6 103:7

169:19 254:19

260:21 295:15

308:21 330:8

341:6 364:13

382:1 390:7

394:19 395:1,3

396:4

differences 60:14

60:21 71:4,6,9

263:1

different 63:6

76:12 80:19 106:6

106:16 109:20

118:6 123:9,11

128:22 137:21

145:16 151:13

158:17 159:1,3

161:7 171:11,12

182:14 184:2,4

186:5,12,13 190:8

190:8 191:4,5

192:12 195:5

197:7 198:11,13

199:4 200:12

201:18 202:5,8

205:1,17 206:10

206:16 207:18,19

207:21,22 224:11

234:9,12 240:15

241:10 243:21

244:20 252:7,17

255:22 256:7

258:6,7,14 259:19

261:3 262:2,3,7

262:21 263:16

266:9,10,20 267:3

267:4,8,15,20

268:10,11,11,13

268:15,18 269:4,8

269:11 270:4,13

270:14,15,17

271:1 273:15

275:8,12,21

283:21 284:17

286:3 288:9
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differentiator

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diffuser-type

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diminish 29:14

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directly 97:1

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Director 15:15

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disappearing

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discontinued

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discontinuities

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discount 391:15

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discuss 23:1 24:8

50:2 52:1,21

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25:19 50:20 54:11

54:21 137:20

149:22 163:12

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326:7 341:5,13

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discussing 26:21

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discussion 35:6,17

54:10 101:3

108:18 110:10

128:18 131:1

144:7 156:2 196:3

217:5 254:17

286:8 328:13

339:17 340:11

351:16 383:5

discussions 32:10

169:18 339:10,10

343:20

displacement 59:8

79:22 80:3,7,14

80:18

displayed 148:14

disproportionate

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distributed 216:7

410:12

distributing 396:17

distribution 51:12

360:3,6,7,11

361:11,14 363:4

364:19,21 365:11

365:13 366:14

390:14

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distributor 110:2

172:1 177:8,12

178:3 359:19

360:13,15 363:18

363:18

distributors 177:8

diverse 359:11

diverting 384:10

divided 260:8

divisions 244:8

divulged 149:12

docket 30:16 36:9

54:22 56:18,22

116:5

document 23:1

24:5 33:19 34:21

35:19,22 36:4

42:16 44:18,20

45:15 56:4 61:8

71:12 75:6 105:5

128:12,18 137:11

138:8 182:20

187:18 192:17

198:8 216:10

217:21,22 244:9

244:17 245:4

259:10 297:22

298:8 301:8 305:1

313:2 314:3,5,10

314:10,12,15

322:4 325:18

350:20 351:8

354:18

documents 41:4,8

225:12

DOE 16:4 25:15

26:7 31:17,22

32:9,16 33:9 34:1

37:9 38:7,11

43:22 44:8 45:3

49:6 51:5 53:20

54:2 55:12,15,16

57:14 59:21 60:4

60:13 61:1 62:19

70:6 72:4,16 73:2

73:15 76:11 79:19

80:1 81:6,7 83:8,9

83:20 86:5 87:6

88:19 89:4 90:1

94:12 95:5 96:5

102:7 103:11,22

104:7 106:17

112:9,11,16 114:3

120:21,22 121:4

123:10 125:13

132:12,17 133:6,9

134:8 135:3 136:6

139:20 140:8,20

141:4,11,22

146:11 149:6

150:8 160:6 162:3

162:9 169:19

170:21 172:20

173:1,12,14 178:7

179:11 181:18,22

182:4,8,14 183:1

183:3,20 184:5,10

198:14 200:1

201:9,11,13 204:1

204:17 209:16

211:22 214:6

218:16,20 219:10

220:20 221:9,14

221:19 222:10

223:7 226:4,12,12

227:12 229:3,9,20

230:7,20 231:2,12

231:16,19 232:5,9

232:18 233:4,15

234:8 236:17,19

237:7,15 239:1

241:6 242:14

243:6,10 244:3

245:7 246:1,5

250:14,18 251:4

251:16 252:16

253:8 256:6

258:10,16 265:21

272:10,12,14,19

273:3,22 274:6

284:14 287:15

290:18 291:16,21

292:8,13 293:6

296:19 310:15

311:20 312:1,15

313:1 324:22

328:7 331:2,3

337:13 345:13

346:11 347:2

349:3,3,7 356:13

357:7,15 367:20

371:14 380:14

381:4 392:13,21

393:12 398:17,19

403:21 404:10

406:17 410:17

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DONALD 1:19

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double 81:13 86:1

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drinking 65:9

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164:12 235:6

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300:13 301:11

305:10,18 307:5,6

310:7 311:6,7

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driven 142:10,16

172:21 173:3,6

174:18 222:6

245:22 251:7

driver 100:21

173:17 378:1

drivers 174:1,3

drives 140:5 152:3

152:15 158:13

164:20 165:22

177:16 275:18

305:2 309:10

311:2 370:20

393:20

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295:16 346:8

351:6

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254:6 255:17

256:2,10

dropped 333:2

dropping 194:1

due 91:15 98:2

114:8 119:3 203:2

345:9

dump 306:12

Dunkin 119:21

duty 109:19 273:21

373:19 381:11,14

381:17 388:16

390:12 391:8

dynamic 195:19

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eager 29:20 120:12

126:15 148:3

172:16

earlier 90:20 93:5

104:12 122:10

131:8,10 133:9

134:6 137:10

151:5,11 161:6

166:4 196:15

197:12 222:4

228:20 230:1

243:13 254:17

265:20 278:2

294:13 315:19

318:6 326:8,15,22

328:13 341:13

344:4 349:15

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Grade 224:14,14

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Hamilton 2:11

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happens 264:10

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happy 30:4 214:5

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harmonization

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harmonize 206:8

322:18

harmonized 94:16

185:9 187:14

207:11,15 212:14

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HARTLEIN 2:4

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high-rise 106:9

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high-volume

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historically 23:13

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history 5:2 18:9

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HI's 32:12 70:10

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HI-led 25:2,3

HI/ANSI 134:22

holes 263:7 294:4

home 358:17

homes 99:16

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homogenous

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honest 369:12

hope 87:1 216:22

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125:20,21 126:4

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hot-water-type

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hourly 385:2

hours 98:16,17

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inconsequential

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incorporated 14:13

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incorporates

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incorporating

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increases 114:1

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increasing 113:21

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incremental 240:20

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Independence 1:10

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independent 209:9

independently

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197:22 201:4

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indicating 142:7

indicator 377:17

indices 398:20

indirect 402:13

individual 127:13

134:5 175:9,15

176:10 203:12

247:3 317:3

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396:7 404:14

individually 134:1

175:10,17 347:2

366:8

individuals 17:1

20:14,15,17 29:3

130:16 216:6

indulgence 146:4

industrial 1:3 12:7

37:5 55:14 56:16

73:7 76:3,4,5,7

112:1 144:1,8

314:6 357:18

360:9 385:7,9

392:22 394:3

398:20

industry 23:6,12,13

24:16 26:6 27:14

40:15 47:1 49:21

50:1,4 59:4 76:20

82:13,13 84:10

92:20 93:4,20

107:2,6 135:1,7

135:15 142:15,16

146:10 218:21,22

219:8 231:14,17

233:4,15 234:16

238:13 240:21

257:10 260:3

288:12 290:8

304:10 331:20

341:5 344:20

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initiative 114:4

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innovating 305:16

innovative 340:16

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inputs 315:21

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inquire 239:11

insert 21:20

inside 129:21

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insist 240:15

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installation 26:3

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institute 1:17 2:10

2:15,16,18 4:13

14:18 15:16 22:20

23:4 27:8,9,18

28:12 31:8 53:4

56:14 61:15,16

62:17 67:12 70:17

74:6,8 80:11,13

84:12 85:12 87:16

88:1 91:11,13

94:3,11 95:18

96:11,12 98:11

102:1,2 103:2

110:20 113:4

115:6 116:13

121:20 125:10

126:21 127:4

128:6 129:4

130:20 131:18

132:22 134:20,21

136:10,14 138:19

139:6,11 142:2

144:15,17 145:9

147:18,21 150:18

151:17 155:19

159:11,13 165:18

169:5 170:19

173:10 174:11,13

176:8 185:5 188:6

190:2,3 196:9

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206:12 209:1

210:14 213:22

214:1 245:21

246:20 247:1

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262:20 322:10

346:21 349:14

365:21 397:19

Institute's 26:8

instrumentation

224:22 225:1

235:8 240:9 242:7

intake 213:10

integral 97:18

346:5

integrated 141:14

155:14 269:20

370:13

integrating 200:1

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integration 148:18

149:2

intend 287:14

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intended 47:10

68:1 78:12 117:14

117:15 150:10

191:21 314:8

intends 331:3

intent 67:2 114:3

200:5 278:6

intention 197:22

interact 410:8

interest 50:1

147:14 290:4

400:20 403:2

interested 35:2,15

37:12 39:22 72:4

73:2 86:22 120:22

141:11,17 150:12

165:13 173:4

198:14 222:10

229:4 239:2,19

240:1 251:19

252:3 256:20

258:10 259:17

262:11 297:14

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392:11

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147:3 167:20

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353:3

intermediate

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international 2:6

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introduced 24:17

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346:2

introducing 213:9

introduction 4:19

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introductions 4:8

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introductory 30:19

intuitively 320:4

invest 344:20

invested 332:20

investigate 230:7

investigated 45:6

investigation 232:1

investment 97:19

98:1

investments 98:5

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229:19 345:19

investor-owned

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invitation 407:18

invite 144:6

inviting 31:9 40:15

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involved 36:16

39:7 105:15 123:6

292:3

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329:20 400:2

involving 123:17

in-house 348:5,7

in-line 81:13 90:2

IOUs 49:4 302:13

irrigation 385:12

ISO 65:7,12 138:22

220:4,20

isolate 284:13

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issuance 44:6

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item 5:9,13,17,19

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8:21 9:3,5,7,9,14

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it’s 45:18 310:2

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IYAMA 2:7

I's 409:16

J

JANE 2:11

Joanna 2:12 4:18

15:2 31:15 90:16

115:20,21 118:21

122:8 135:11,12

167:7,8 169:15,16

170:15 190:11,12

266:4,5 307:19,20

job 14:11 319:22

407:22 408:5

John 1:14 2:4 3:1

4:5 12:17,19 16:3

51:3,4 52:12 87:4

87:5 92:2 93:7

104:12 107:15

149:4,5 226:2,3

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joining 21:9

joint 125:11 214:6

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jointly 26:18

jokes 319:20

Jon 2:10 161:17

407:12

JORDAN 1:21

Jr 2:4

judge 159:16

July 25:7

jump 62:4 65:6

254:18 283:18

jumping 253:7

June 55:21

Justice 32:5

justified 37:20

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K

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keep 20:20 21:14

46:21 57:2 79:15

94:16 120:5

126:15 127:2

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154:20 161:11

217:7 226:13

236:13 304:2,5

319:11 384:7,10

400:16 405:22

keeps 282:11

Ken 2:14 14:19

67:10,11 77:17,18

78:20 89:12 94:1

94:2 99:5 100:7

110:18,19 124:13

129:12 130:21

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149:17,18 151:5

155:17,18 170:8

185:3,4 208:20

253:17 256:8

269:13 271:4

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306:20,21 307:21

322:13 328:15

332:12,14 335:8

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key 24:7 37:20

74:11 96:17

342:22 355:10

395:13

kidding 216:22

kilowatt 98:16,17

378:22

kind 52:8 59:20

62:21 64:8 90:19

102:10 104:16

108:18 124:17

130:12,15,21

138:9 140:18

141:15 147:20

163:2 171:8 186:3

187:2,3 200:5

202:12 204:1

205:19 206:3

233:17 238:9

248:7 255:15

264:21 266:7

277:1 300:11

301:1 305:17

306:17,18 309:4

323:7 334:19,20

339:20 356:2

369:1 382:10

383:15 386:13,15

393:13 410:3

kinds 177:15

kinematic 237:5

Kitt 1:20 161:1

233:12

knew 287:19

know 20:2 44:12

51:1,22 61:1 68:6

76:2 77:3 83:19

84:21 86:13,17

102:9 107:9

109:17 110:5

116:6 128:2 130:1

130:12 135:20

141:16 147:3

167:13 171:3

175:10,14,17,20

176:10,20 191:14

192:12,20 198:9

198:21 199:8

206:4,18,22

224:18 238:16

239:7 242:11

247:1 253:12

261:22 262:12

267:12,16 269:3

270:15 271:1,2

274:21,22 276:9

276:13 277:9

280:15 282:10,13

285:5,11 286:2,6

286:6,16 287:1

289:4 294:15

299:8 301:6,17,21

304:12 305:2

309:5 310:22

320:4,4,6,7 321:5

323:20,20 324:15

325:13 327:19,20

328:12,20 333:4

339:4 351:3,4

357:22 364:2

365:21 373:21

376:4,6,16 382:13

383:8 385:5 387:7

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394:7 402:22

403:20 404:6,17

405:9 409:3

knowing 147:11

238:14 322:2

374:8

knowledge 23:21

370:2

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150:11

knows 50:19

150:22 151:3

333:2 385:16

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47:14,15,20 48:3

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lab 25:3 216:17

231:3 350:6

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labeling 25:2 37:10

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7:19 8:16 10:4,13

16:9,11,13,17

117:19

laid 169:20 182:19

lamp 304:10

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350:8

large 33:14 85:8

97:14,21 110:13

209:6 221:2 275:3

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larger 187:19

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22:12 34:10 57:3

61:10 68:15 79:15

89:9 90:14 91:6

93:15,15 95:4

112:10 119:6

120:5 134:16

136:19,21 161:11

180:15 185:1

187:5,8 222:14

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299:18 313:11,12

313:17 365:8

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224:18 231:20

241:20 255:7

280:21 284:20

290:13 291:5,10

291:19 292:1,16

292:21 293:3,7,7

293:8,22 295:18

296:8,12 298:2

316:17 317:10,17

317:19 320:2

321:19 323:14

326:6 336:22

337:2,3,10 359:5

372:17 390:8

394:9 395:18

396:16 399:19

levels 43:6 97:21

163:4 204:4 205:1

224:20 241:10

242:6,17 243:7

273:15 290:11,19

291:17,22 292:10

292:12 296:11

317:13 323:19

324:2 338:20

372:15 375:17

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389:18

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278:12

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304:9

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164:9

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278:4 279:8 280:3

280:4 285:2,9

290:21 291:3,15

293:20,21 294:4

324:8 327:4

333:14 345:11

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list 35:18 60:14,19

71:1,3 244:9

296:21,22 401:20

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75:13 81:21 82:16

90:12 121:5

210:16 221:18

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40:4 42:14 49:18

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67:13 72:19 91:20

105:12 119:4

121:11 123:11

124:15 137:15

140:19 152:14,20

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162:15 175:8

179:12 186:8

190:13 191:17

192:22 195:9,10

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223:4 226:5

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255:3 273:16

274:11 315:8

318:8 319:4

322:15 327:11

328:12,22 338:6

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358:19 359:8

371:12 383:16

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18:6 22:1,8 30:5,6

30:15 34:16,17

48:10 49:17 54:19

55:8 59:19 72:16

76:15 79:17,18

81:5,22 82:3,20

84:18 90:5 91:6

92:17,18 95:4

96:5 101:17

105:12 106:21

111:18,18 112:11

119:5 199:14,14

266:13 267:17,18

300:16,17 337:6,7

338:1,2 339:20

401:6,21 408:2

409:2 410:10

LLP 2:11

load 140:12,16

156:9,18,21 157:3

158:18,22 159:3

196:20,21 197:2,6

197:8,22 198:13

198:15 248:17

256:21 257:7

269:19 270:17,18

307:16 308:10,11

309:3,8,20,22

310:1,3,7,20

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134:1 136:19

138:7,10 140:13

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158:19 187:7

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273:9 280:2,20

281:8 285:11

286:18,22 297:10

301:17 303:15,16

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361:2,18,19 362:3

369:15,17 372:3

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390:9,11 391:1,22

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402:10 404:11

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looked 57:15,22

58:20 129:15

134:6 138:13

244:11 255:21

256:6 268:4 274:6

304:16 336:11,16

337:1 381:20

looking 18:7 34:7

44:5 84:9 103:18

104:15 105:3

129:1 130:13

140:19 141:20

142:1 152:22

156:5 162:9

164:20,21 194:18

202:4 227:4

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283:22 284:3,12

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299:14 300:15

301:18 302:8,19

304:9 316:11,19

317:10,15 320:1

323:6 326:13

327:16,20 328:7

331:1 342:22

343:1 347:21

352:4 354:19

356:6 357:21

369:3,22 377:15

378:7 388:12

389:4 390:3 392:1

396:22 397:13

looks 74:1 147:4

216:18 218:20

291:21 292:8

295:16 312:16

317:11 363:2

372:17 402:12,13

402:16

look-back 48:11

loop 156:13 157:4

loopholes 135:18

Loren 3:3

lose 329:7

losing 117:11

loss 277:2

losses 213:10 235:5

383:9

lost 99:20 142:20

lot 13:2,6 19:19

21:5 29:21 47:18

57:16 64:20 65:17

93:14 105:14

111:5,8 126:4

128:12 148:20

157:1,21 195:11

196:3 199:12

210:21 217:4

228:13 233:13

259:11 273:8

292:17 293:3

322:21 323:3

329:21 331:14

335:5 338:7

339:17 340:10

341:6 348:8

349:16 358:22

359:12 360:14

361:8 364:8 365:4

373:17,19 375:19

380:8,14 382:1

383:11 391:1

395:20 401:15

404:21 408:15,16

lots 333:3 385:6,7

401:17

loudly 16:21

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108:11 171:16

175:7 177:17

306:2 309:18

334:10 351:12

362:16 382:5,6

386:8 397:10

love 234:15

Loveless 2:13

131:15 144:14

150:17 165:18

174:11 196:9

200:20

low 66:19 91:18

98:4,13 99:3

110:14 111:8

140:6 269:9 271:2

286:20 388:15

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172:9 188:14

190:17,21 193:20

194:12,12 195:19

195:19 242:10

245:11 258:4

270:3 293:14

lowering 293:2

lowest 259:5

290:14 291:2

298:1 319:10

lowest-performing

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low-performing

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luck 311:8

lucky 339:14

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146:4 203:2,2

214:12,18 215:20

299:22

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143:16,16 383:15

LUXTON 2:11

luxury 237:21

M

machine 67:16

machines 344:17

machining 330:6

magnetic 73:5

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maintain 189:12

204:21

maintainability

303:6

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maintaining

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maintenance 26:4

303:17 343:12

392:7

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244:9

majority 94:10

150:21 151:1

making 77:9 78:13

104:5 111:2

135:20 222:5

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mid-morning

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minute 261:15

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Mutual 117:19

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numbers 36:3

63:11 64:4 100:10

102:21 121:13

123:17 127:5

128:17 129:14

175:11 183:11

184:16 382:19,22

386:12

numerous 85:4

nutshell 42:13

O

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objective 394:16

objectives 410:3

obligation 409:7

observation 67:6

observe 86:15

obtaining 214:6

obviously 54:4,15

70:10 77:9 198:22

324:15 334:5

occur 217:20 314:9

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occurred 50:19

occurrence 240:18

occurs 177:14

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October/Novemb...

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Office 15:22 50:14

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Off-microphone

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okay 14:14 17:9

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38:3 44:7 47:4

52:2 53:16 55:7,8

57:12 59:19 64:5

65:13 67:5 70:18

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79:5,8,18 80:22

81:5 82:19 83:12

83:13 86:12 88:13

90:4 91:2,22 95:1

95:4 96:4,5 98:7

100:7 101:4,15

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106:12 108:9,22

110:18 112:11

114:13 115:9

118:4,5,8,9 119:1

119:6 120:10

121:17 122:7

124:2,2 125:4,5

125:17 126:2,8,14

130:4 131:13

132:3,8,8,10

134:16 135:10

136:8,18,18 137:6

138:16 139:2,15

139:17 144:10

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154:21 155:17

159:8 160:3,14,21

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quick 72:2 76:1

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45:2 90:20 140:19

225:20

reviewed 22:11

178:7 179:11

187:2 219:10

220:20 221:17

reviewing 36:16

47:9 133:12 221:8

revise 43:18

revised 227:5

293:22 350:2

revisit 143:11

Reynolds 259:14

260:10 261:14

RFI 55:22 56:7

rich 143:22

right 42:3 63:16

73:4 74:3 77:5

81:22 92:17 105:3

107:18 119:4

122:12,15,21

124:15 130:21

132:22 133:16

134:18 148:5

154:14 160:10

164:8 190:18

192:14,15 194:4

196:4 202:3,7

207:11,20 215:18

218:6 231:20

236:14 237:12

240:14 241:1,19

241:22 242:18

244:4 250:19,22

251:14 254:2

259:12 265:19

269:18 274:12

275:9,21 276:12

277:18 280:17

282:22 283:7,16

285:22 286:5

288:10,18,22

290:15 292:3,6

293:9 294:1,20

295:7 296:9

299:10 302:7

310:21 311:12

316:11 318:10

320:5 333:8

335:22 340:22

348:17 357:4,12

358:7 359:7

361:21 366:1

368:11 369:6

375:21 376:13

378:4,11,11 379:4

379:4 383:10

387:7

rigorous 409:9

RIN 36:9

ripe 385:14

Rivest 2:16 16:14

16:14 158:7,8,8

194:4,7,7 270:10

270:11,11 271:9

271:14,17 272:1

277:11,11,16,18

282:10,13,19

283:2,7,10,12,16

284:18 288:16,20

289:3,7 301:16,16

315:8 319:17,18

321:17 325:12

336:1,3

RMS 236:7

road 152:21

ROB 1:18

ROBERT 1:17

Rod 200:19

Rodney 2:13

131:14 144:11,13

145:18 150:15,16

165:16,17 174:9

174:10 193:12

194:6,22 196:7,8

200:17

Rodney's 147:20

rolled 46:14 56:1

381:13

rollup 363:17

ROMANYSHYN

2:16

room 1:9 13:2 14:5

16:19 21:16 51:21

102:19 103:19

137:7 140:2

146:22 215:10

257:13 347:3

365:20

ROSE 2:17

Rosenquist 2:17

16:12,12

Rosenstock 2:18

14:17,17 53:2,3,3

53:16,17 59:12,13

59:13 62:15,16,16

64:5,6 65:2 75:22

76:1 83:14,15,15

84:7 88:14,15,15

89:7 114:16,17,17

115:9,10 125:7,8

125:17 126:2

138:4,5,5 151:21

151:22,22 164:2,3

164:3 165:4

170:17,18,18

173:8,9,9 180:16

180:17,18 181:9

185:21,22,22

198:18,19,19

204:6,6 245:19,20

245:20 246:17

263:21,22,22

274:18,18 293:10

293:11,18 294:10

294:11,20 295:4,4

295:8,12 304:19

304:20 330:20

338:22,22 339:8

347:7,8,8 348:12

349:13,13 350:22

350:22 351:9

368:20,21 369:8

377:13,13 378:9

378:12,16 379:5,8

379:13,21 380:1

393:8,9,9 395:9,9

404:19,19

rotate 202:1

rotodynamic 58:19

63:22 64:18 79:20

80:3,5,18 134:4

219:12,16 220:15

rotor 96:21

roughly 102:13

round 18:16

round-robin 233:5

route 329:14

row 163:12,15,17

RS 361:9

rule 38:21 39:1

43:7,15,20 44:3,6

46:11,12,16,19

47:10,12,16 48:1

118:11,13 405:2,7

405:15

rulemaking 4:19

8:14 13:17 16:2

18:5 23:3 24:1

25:16 26:1,18

32:2 34:3 35:1,3

37:1 38:1,13,15

38:21 39:13 40:1

40:10,12 43:18

45:5,6 50:17 51:8

54:16 55:20 57:13

59:3 60:1 69:8

72:21 94:12 96:8

96:14 104:16

107:14 112:2,6

118:22 135:5

154:15 217:11,12

217:12 221:10,20

229:12 231:9

232:17 243:6,11

246:6 314:6 316:1

337:5 381:12

385:22 405:2

rulemakings 13:20

46:1 52:5 93:14

103:12 107:10

143:14 146:12

159:6 290:16

rules 54:12 77:14

233:1 325:8

404:13,14 405:12

ruling 86:5

run 17:16 69:3

124:16 157:2,2,2

157:3 263:19

268:4 269:5

284:22 299:17

313:17 318:7

342:4 355:15,18

385:8 390:22

running 101:11

124:19 166:8,13

181:6 190:22

195:6 258:4,8,14

264:12 299:4

runs 268:17

R&D 331:11

S

sacrifices 239:2

safe 75:2 411:4

safety 74:12,14

312:22 386:1

sales 59:6 63:12

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San 15:9

SANAEE 2:7

sanitary 73:6

Sarah 2:5 3:4 7:18

10:3 16:8 216:14

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243:9 311:10

358:10 389:14

391:12

save 2:11 15:20

32:5 97:14 140:17

143:17 152:13

155:5 168:3

197:13 217:16

375:18 383:7

saved 157:13

197:14 404:16

saves 164:14

321:11 404:9

saving 152:4,17

255:9 410:4

savings 23:14

24:10 25:5 26:19

27:12 31:20 33:4

33:6,7,10,15 42:6

42:8 48:16 61:18

69:18 85:11 86:11

87:17 91:21 111:8

113:14 156:3

157:6,16 173:16

194:11 197:19

199:9,10 302:17

302:19 303:7,17

304:13 305:12

310:2 373:13

398:13 399:17

400:5,6

saw 133:9 134:7

176:5 260:9

277:16 298:12

362:2 403:9

saying 69:14 123:4

125:9 186:7

191:14 194:15

256:8 270:12

271:7 284:2 289:8

298:11 309:20

379:17

says 62:19 63:12

88:18 89:3 104:8

164:8 255:1,5

269:19 305:6

308:13 309:6

319:9 329:9

340:13

scale 144:2 274:1,7

280:16 284:16,18

284:19 285:10

289:11

scaled 274:5

scale-up 261:14

scan 136:19 137:7

386:20

scary 13:4

schedule 38:2,9

44:9 313:14

scheduled 147:1

scheme 25:3

157:15

Schmitz 2:19 14:15

14:16 61:13,14

65:4,22 66:18

69:13 78:18,19,19

79:9 95:16,17,18

113:2,3,4,8 118:1

118:2 121:19,19

122:15,22 123:4

123:12,21 124:11

126:19,20,20

127:3 138:17,18

138:18 213:21,22

252:14 253:2

scope 18:9 28:11

32:12 55:11 75:4

78:3,16 85:17

87:10 91:17 107:2

108:5 121:8 131:4

136:4 208:15,16

209:3,11,17,18

211:12,14 218:7

218:18 221:12

222:2 223:17

235:17 242:16

253:19,21 254:11

275:14 282:8

369:14 370:8

scope-related

217:4

screen 72:7 90:12

screening 9:11

18:19 312:15

313:3

scroll 62:18

Sdano 2:19 222:16

222:17,17,21

223:1,1 224:12

225:6 234:21,21

237:14 239:7

240:7 241:2,22

259:21 261:12,20

262:2,5,8 277:1

seal 69:4 96:22

97:4

sealless 73:4

seals 117:6

second 32:22 48:1

63:10,11 71:5

122:2 163:15

183:9 187:4

307:11 321:10

Secondly 97:15

148:6,15

section 91:7 92:1

107:4 138:7

139:18 237:16

261:13 285:6

304:22 351:17

356:12 358:9

401:7

sections 24:7 350:2

350:2

sector 392:1 406:4

sectors 398:21

secure 215:14

security 70:4

119:13 215:1

see 12:13 20:5

31:21 33:8 34:14

35:12 38:5,16

40:12,12 41:17

44:4,16,20 45:11

46:20 48:15 68:21

81:17 82:22 90:11

90:13 135:20

136:21 143:7

165:5 167:21

168:17 169:19

171:22 179:19

195:8 202:7

203:14 217:22

226:1 261:5 268:6

268:6 269:10

270:22 288:21

291:3,14 313:13

313:19 319:5

327:3 339:18

341:6 355:11,12

356:18 360:7

365:9 370:18

375:3 382:22

386:4 391:7 394:5

400:9 401:1,12

402:6 409:22

seed 13:9

seeing 137:6

194:14 338:17

seeking 137:13

274:13

seeks 59:21 60:13

72:17 79:19 95:5

96:5 132:17 293:6

313:1 328:8

356:13 357:7,15

367:20

Seemingly 126:9

seen 58:1 123:15

250:21 290:21

SEER 158:20

segment 67:7 145:5

298:5 361:6

segments 85:4,7

280:20 285:5

289:12,14 332:3

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384:15

segregated 335:14

select 258:20

272:15 277:2

selected 382:16

selection 26:5 89:5

329:8 341:12

381:5 390:11

391:7

selects 273:3,22

292:10

self-priming 62:10

65:16,18,20 66:1

66:7,12,15,21

67:3,9,14 112:12

112:18 120:20

sell 172:7 175:19

176:21 263:17

312:20 363:17,18

363:19

selling 213:17

303:11 329:11

343:7,9,18 344:2

345:15 359:2,16

360:10,12,17,19

368:3

sells 177:10 360:18

360:19,20

semi 309:14 311:21

372:21

semi-analytical

309:1 311:19

send 14:1 51:1

410:18

sense 93:14 115:22

130:1 233:6

248:16 301:13

305:17

sensitive 80:17

sensitivity 389:6

sent 354:20 410:11

separate 46:1 52:2

53:11,14 62:20

122:18 141:16

168:14 171:1
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series 366:11

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serious 119:12

served 49:11

serves 26:14 398:6

service 312:20

serving 245:1

276:3,6

session 25:19

set 36:10 45:16

47:2 92:7 95:7

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147:5,11 153:11

153:12,16 163:21

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387:14

sets 162:14,20

183:3 224:21

258:16 285:9

setting 105:4

147:14 153:14

171:10 258:6

259:15 317:10

359:5

seven 38:4 41:14

177:20 207:17

264:12 338:5

shaft 178:10

184:13 220:17

shafts 74:16

shakes 209:18

286:1

shapes 385:1,9

share 21:4 23:20

33:12 102:6

103:16 111:15

148:3 165:13

310:22

shared 355:12

shear 80:17

sheets 144:4

shell 102:10,17

shift 258:11

shifts 402:14

shipment 121:16

127:20

shipments 10:17

19:5 41:22 42:2,2

42:3 243:20 245:1

245:7,16,17

249:15 398:5,11

398:17,21,22

399:5,6,8 400:1

shipped 98:18

141:2,16

shipping 242:12

362:9 367:22

shooting 295:17

shop 119:15,17

215:5

short 87:12

shorthand 300:11

shortly 21:3 203:1

312:9 313:20

shot 253:16

show 111:16 184:2

199:2,6,9,10

202:12 218:15

267:15

showed 13:15

41:16 207:3

260:18 293:12

showing 203:18

shown 121:13

294:14

shows 199:3

shutoff 117:1

sic 129:15

side 103:19 106:10

116:19 164:8

197:6 250:22

302:6 342:6 396:5

397:13

sidebar 20:22

sides 344:8

sign 149:9

signed 17:3

significance 98:20

significant 26:8,19

28:8 31:20,22

33:3 66:12 69:5

85:21 93:20 99:2

111:15 114:7

167:12 168:3

260:13 263:1

277:5 346:9

349:16 392:10

404:15 407:2,5

significantly

128:11 245:11

275:12 305:4

silence 49:9

silent 20:21

similar 42:17 85:6

116:4 152:6 163:6

174:2 179:6 220:8

220:13 230:1

237:1,5 239:1,9

254:14 284:5

289:10 292:11

294:22 321:18

360:7 361:18

369:21 372:21

374:14

similarity 152:5

similarly 58:16

291:21

simple 151:17

156:22 206:17

308:3,10 337:13

simpler 158:1

simplicity 173:4

simplify 296:6

simplifying 69:8

simplistic 338:8,18

simply 111:2 157:4

184:14 396:17

simulation 391:1

single 100:15

122:20 159:4

179:7 213:15

251:21 258:20

260:16 270:20

396:6

single-family 99:16

100:20 106:3

108:2

single-phased

109:9

single-pump

262:12

single-speed

270:22

single-stage 212:22

sit 16:20 86:15

sitting 22:3 102:18

286:6

situation 151:9

154:8 180:21

326:19 384:5

situations 98:2

six 48:5 340:9

Sixty 265:18

six-pole 266:2

268:8

size 101:18 102:3

113:21 141:18

148:21 219:15

258:3 268:6

275:10 276:5,7

280:18 281:12

284:10 286:21

288:19 323:2

362:12

sized 193:21 374:7

383:19 384:9

sizes 275:21 388:6

sizing 381:5

skewing 130:15

skipping 312:13

slew 350:2

slice 203:18 290:20

291:14

slide 41:15 44:9,17

45:21 59:18 68:15

89:14 95:8 120:18

121:21 122:2

134:17 145:6

151:11 173:11

230:15 252:3,11

253:5 293:12

327:8 335:21

362:2,19,19

slides 17:16 18:2

28:21 34:12 62:19

64:22 173:22

251:2 284:1

311:14 372:21

slightly 88:5

263:18 268:11

270:4

slow 13:5

slump 58:13

slurry 58:13 78:10

small 80:14 87:10

88:9 97:13 100:14

255:15 275:16

276:18 298:5

341:17 356:5,7

357:15,21 358:1

364:10,15

smaller 100:22

141:6 193:19

232:1 258:5

Smith 2:13,20

131:15 144:14

150:17 165:18

174:11 196:9

200:19

smoothing 297:5
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social 404:5

society 396:19

software 21:18

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sold 33:11,13,21

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150:11 162:5,12

162:18 163:10,15

163:18,19,21

164:8 168:15

173:2 175:11,18

181:20,20 182:7

182:13 184:7

190:14 200:13,13

200:22 201:1,5

213:1 214:3

227:16 302:20

303:19 347:14,15

361:7 364:18

370:14 373:5

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solely 314:13

solid 97:22 139:9

solids 58:13,16

72:20 95:13

137:18 139:12,14

solutions 1:13

12:12 80:19

solve 291:6

somebody 79:21

somewhat 237:4,21

soon 39:8 160:10

353:4 405:9

sooner 44:12

203:21

sorry 47:20 48:3

63:20 87:14

123:18 124:4

126:22 132:17

192:22 200:19

210:11 281:14

293:16 294:21

310:11 378:5

sort 49:12 54:1

59:1 95:15 106:15

152:5 153:7

158:10,20 164:17

182:18 218:10

282:19 300:19

359:17 372:18

373:18 409:14

sorted 224:17

sorts 57:16

sound 186:6 248:22

sounded 103:21

sounds 250:8

264:22 334:14

374:14

source 144:5

385:14

sources 133:2

341:22 365:15

380:22 398:16

South 178:13

Southern 1:19 15:8

15:10 153:20

so-called 142:12

SO2 406:13

space 51:16 291:1,2

292:17 293:4

spaces 292:18,21

294:7

speak 16:20 20:6,7

20:14 21:2,16

29:14 90:15

233:12 322:9

speakers 84:21

speaking 31:5

70:14,16 86:13,17

87:15,22 91:9

102:1 134:20

142:14 174:21

spec 282:20

special 118:19

specialized 85:15

specially 118:20

specialty 97:18

specific 36:5,7 48:7

73:9 75:10 80:6

81:17 83:10 95:13

96:1 100:10 102:3

118:13 120:22

133:20 134:13,15

135:19 136:15,22

153:5,12,16

179:15,16,20

180:1 200:6

201:11 202:5,6,8

203:11,13 204:3,4

204:19 227:7,20

229:6 246:21

251:12 256:20

260:17 261:10

265:7 268:2

273:14 274:3

277:3 291:13,20

294:7 295:9

298:17 307:7

373:12 388:9

specifically 34:13

36:2 60:19 66:6

67:2,20 70:8 73:2

77:15 83:5 84:13

86:1 87:18 96:18

97:16 104:8

114:22 116:14

136:11 148:1

246:2 316:19

367:21

specifically-desig...

67:16

specifications 86:6

153:1

specifics 62:4

114:14

specify 269:8

speed 25:12 80:6

122:21 123:7

124:8,12 134:15

140:5 148:18

152:3 153:5 154:3

154:6,10 155:4,7

156:13 159:4

166:1,9,13 179:15

179:15,16,20,22

190:17 191:2,10

191:15,22 192:2

192:19,20,21

193:20,22 194:1

194:12 195:7,7

201:11 202:6

204:19 210:6

250:22 251:1,12

257:18 258:17,19

258:20 259:9

260:18 261:10,11

261:18 262:13,16

263:11,17,19

265:15 267:6,10

267:14 268:7,8,8

269:8,9,9,9 270:5

273:15 277:3

291:13 294:7

300:6 306:7 307:5

307:8,9,14 388:9

392:17

speeds 161:7

190:21 191:4

192:10,12 193:15

202:5,9 207:22

208:1 219:3

240:15 258:4,5,9

258:15 259:2,3

262:13,21 263:13

263:14 264:4,14

265:14,16,21

266:1,2,9,21

267:3,4,16,20

268:3,12,13,18

269:5,8 270:3

271:8,13 274:3

291:20 388:16

spend 335:5 358:22

spent 330:9

split 81:14,15 89:22

102:9,22 104:17

212:4,6 289:12,14

334:16

spoke 326:15

spoken 354:13

sporadic 49:16

spot 296:1

spreadsheets 52:6

spring 44:6

stage 42:22 43:3

89:17,19 129:1

154:17 212:7

213:11,16 214:15

238:5 305:7

355:17 401:10

stages 128:21

180:13 212:3

213:2,3,7

stake 111:8

stakeholders 35:7

41:10 43:11,21

45:7 53:21 54:1,3

56:1 58:8 121:3,7

125:9,15 140:2

143:1 179:10

338:10

stalled 202:19

stamp 117:22

stand 16:5,20 26:17

229:1

standalone 165:2

347:14

standard 38:14,15

39:5 40:8 43:6

46:4,10,13,16,18

48:18 61:22 65:7

65:12 70:12 73:17

75:19 85:15 92:7

92:12,15 95:21

96:22 110:1 122:4

122:16,17 124:1,8

138:22 147:1

153:14,15,22

158:14,16 161:4

161:20,20 173:14

180:1,10,11

184:10 185:17

201:10 212:2,14

212:21 213:2

217:19 219:8,9,22

220:5,12,20

221:11 223:9,21

223:22 226:12

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standards 1:3 2:12

4:6,18 12:7,20

15:3 25:1,18 26:2

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105:4 135:1,6

153:11 158:12

159:14 217:12

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165 6:20,21

17 4:9

173 7:2,3

178 7:4

18 298:4

180 7:5

181 7:4

185 7:5

187 7:6,7

190 7:8,9

1917 23:5

1999 142:12 225:19

2

2 47:10,15 86:10

141:7 162:11

163:7 165:9 167:9

167:11 175:4

182:7 183:1

189:19 198:12

224:14 231:11

241:15 242:17

319:12 353:4

354:9 382:17

2D 202:3 203:18

290:20

2nd 25:20 36:18

45:1 224:6 411:2

2(b) 224:15 242:17

2,000 205:12 208:7

211:7

2,024 208:9 210:20

2,300 210:17

2.3 382:17

20 1:7 117:18

275:20 286:9,9

296:7 320:12

322:3 332:22

333:10,20 335:17

20th 12:8

20.3 178:12 259:21

261:5,9

200 7:10 125:21

242:4 246:3

275:14,20 276:15

280:20

2001 405:21 406:4

2009 259:21

201 7:11,12

2010 127:22 244:12

248:22 249:14

250:1,5

2011 55:21 56:14

221:15

2012 61:20

2013 1:7 12:8 36:18

40:19 350:1,3,18

2014 45:12

2015 160:7 246:10

340:3,5

2016 44:6 405:3,13

405:14

2017 405:14

2019 147:2 405:4

204 7:13

21 165:6

210 7:14,15

212 7:16,17

216 7:18

22 4:11,12,13

226 8:2

227 8:3

229 8:4

230 8:5

232 8:6,7

234 8:8,9

236 8:10

237 8:11

238 386:17

239 8:12

240 8:13

243 8:15,17

246 8:18

248 8:19

25 171:21 289:11

289:15 333:3

392:14

2500 260:17

251 8:20

259 8:21

26th 52:18

260 8:22

263 9:1,2

265 9:3,4

27 4:14

27,000 210:16

254:22

272 9:5

275 9:6

28 95:8

290 9:7

293 9:8

295 122:2,3 129:15

297 9:9

298 9:10

3

3 33:19 55:9 163:8

165:9 167:21

168:4,12 169:7,7

169:20 170:22

171:17 175:5

181:19 182:12,13

183:2 189:20

198:12 241:16

242:12 298:9

319:12 353:5

355:5 382:18

3D 179:18 201:22

203:14 274:5

277:7 291:1,2

292:17 294:3

3P 97:5

3-1 8:17

3-10 9:1 263:9

3-11 9:3 264:19

3-12 9:3

3-13 9:3

3-14 297:19 303:2

3-2 8:17

3-3 8:17

3-4 8:19 252:3

3-5 8:19 252:6

3-6 8:19 252:7

3-7 8:19 256:18,19

3-8 8:21

3-9 8:21 259:16

262:18

3.1 246:21 248:2

3.2 248:3

3.3 250:6

3:04 313:22

3:14 314:1

3:15 313:19

30 102:14 320:3,12

332:22 398:17

31 4:16

312 9:12

313 9:13

315 9:14,15

318 9:17

32 4:18 134:17

136:19

326 9:15

329 9:17

33 136:19

331 9:15

333 275:6

34 4:19 136:19

341 9:18
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 463

346 9:19

349 9:20

35 136:21 245:9

350 9:20

352 9:22

357 9:22

359 10:2,5

363 10:6

368 10:7,8

372 10:9

376 10:10

388 10:9

39 145:6

390 10:11,14

399 10:17,18

4

4 254:7 340:3

4-1 9:12 313:7

4:42 411:6

40 254:8 255:17

256:2,10,16 278:7

278:13 279:7,8,9

280:7,12,13,18

285:8,8 286:10,13

287:17 288:11

320:3 334:14

402 10:20

41 129:22

410 11:2

42 37:10

43 129:22

44 226:20

45 226:21

450 281:13

459 122:3,5,13

123:7,17,20 128:8

46 244:16

47 4:22

48 121:14

495 10:16 123:17

124:18

5

5 388:15

5-1 9:14

5-10 9:18 346:22

348:14

5-11 9:18 346:22

348:14

5-12 9:20

5-14 9:9

5-15 9:9

5-16 9:9

5-2 9:5

5-3 9:5

5-4 9:5

5-5 9:7

5-6 9:7

5-7 9:7

5-8 9:14 330:21

331:1

5-9 9:18 345:13

346:22

5:00 358:18

50 88:4 129:8 207:4

276:13 320:3

406:5

50-hertz 127:14

500 281:12 289:15

51 244:16

547 61:20

547-2012 85:13

55 5:2

550 98:16 281:13

6

6 86:2

6-inch 86:9

6-1 10:5

6-2 10:5

6-3 10:5 365:15

6-4 10:7 367:11

6-5 10:7 367:11

60 244:5 265:16

386:2

60-hertz 211:16

600 279:22 280:12

280:20

61 5:5,6

610 73:3 75:12

6311(1)(A) 37:11

7

7-1 10:9

7-2 10:9

7-3 10:9

7-4 10:9 382:8

383:17

7-5 10:9

7-6 10:9

7-7 10:9

7-8 10:9

7-9 10:9

7.5 381:10

70 59:6 63:12,21

64:12 102:13

244:5,7

70/30 102:21

72 5:7

74 5:8

75 180:6 181:12

184:19 185:7

188:19 190:20

191:21 192:19,19

192:21 196:11

197:4 198:10

204:10 210:6

264:13 282:1

78 253:5

79 5:9,10

8

8E-089 1:10

8-1 10:14

8-2 10:14 393:11

8-3 10:14

8-4 10:14

8-5 10:14

8-6 10:15

80 130:2

81 5:11 186:10,18

82 5:12

83 186:11,17,19

84 5:13,14

85 186:12 394:16

89 245:6

9

9-1 10:18

9-2 10:18

9-3 10:18

9.6.3 185:16

9:00 1:10

9:07 12:2

90 5:15,16 59:6

63:13,22 64:13

90.1 108:16,16

349:17 350:8,18

92 246:5

94-163 37:3

947 204:15

95 5:17,18

96 5:19,20

985 204:15

9906 65:7 138:22

220:5
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

464

Energy Conservation Standards for

Commercial and Industrial Pumps

US DOE

02-20-13

Washington, DC