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1 Environmental Protection Agency 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 Public Hearing on the 

7 PROPOSED FEDERAL PLAN AND MODEL RULES FOR THE 

8 POWER PLAN FOR EXISTING POWER PLANTS 

9 

10 

11 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. 

12 Tuesday, November 17, 2015 

13 

14 

15 1595 Wynkoop Street 

16 Denver, Colorado 80202 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 MORNING SESSION 

2 EPA PANEL: 

3 JENNY NOONAN, Chair; 

4 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 

5 

6 CATE HIGHT, 

7 Office of Atmospheric Programs 

8 

9 LAURA FARRIS, 

10 Climate Change Coordinator 

11 

12 AFTERNOON SESSION 

13 EPA PANEL: 

14 JENNY NOONAN, Chair, 

15 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 

16 

17 NICHOLAS SWANSON, 

18 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 

19 

20 SCOTT JACKSON, 

21 Office of Air Quality Planning and Standards 

22 
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1 C O N T E N T S 

2 PUBLIC COMMENTS PAGE 

3 Morning Session 

4 CHRISTIAN REESE, 

5 Executive Director of CLUB 20 13 

6 KATHY TOLMAN, Citizen 20 

7 JOHN KINKAID, Commissioner of Moffatt County 22 

8 RAY BECK, Mayor of Craig, Colorado 26 

9 JOHN GRAVES, Minnkota Power Cooperative 31 

10 KATIE DITTELBERGER, Earth Justice 35 

11 JEFF BROWN, Pacific Gas and Electric Company 40 

12 ANNE MCDEVITT, Environment Colorado 46 

13 ANN LIVINGSTON, Program Manager for State and 

14 Local Engagement (SWEEP) 51 

15 CATHERINE COLLENTINE, Sierra Club in Denver 54 

16 MICHAEL CASHIN, Minnesota Power ALLETE 60 

17 DOUG FITZGERALD, Citizen 66 

18 JESSICA ABELL, Colorado Interfaith Power and 

19 Light 72 

20 ALEC HERR, Sierra Club of Denver 77 

21 MICHAEL CASHIN, Speaking on behalf of Tyler 

22 Hamman 81 
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1 PUBLIC COMMENTS (Continued): PAGE 

2 CONTENTS 

3 JACK IHLE, Xcel Energy 85 

4 JENNY WILFRED, Citizen 92 

5 AFTERNOON SESSION 

6 EMMA PINTER, Colorado Moms Know Best 99 

7 ANGELIQUE KENISON, Citizen 101 

8 ART ETTER, Citizen 102 

9 JEFF HART, Citizen 106 

10 DR. CHRIS STANLEY, Citizen 112 

11 BRAD COFIELD, Wagner Equipment Company 116 

12 RONALD LARSON, Citizen 120 

13 SOREN HERMANSON, Citizen 122 

14 MORRIS SPARKMAN, Collegians for a Constructive 

15 Tomorrow 128 

16 JONATHON SHEPARD, Citizen 132 

17 DANIEL DOWNS, Citizen 139 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

2 MORNING SESSION 

3 9:02 a.m. 

4 MS. NOONAN: Good morning. My name is 

5 Jenny Noonan and I am the chair of today’s public 

6 hearing. And thank you all today for coming. 

7 Joining me today on the panel are Cate Hight and 

8 Laura Farris. And we welcome you today. 

9 I am going to give a brief summary, or 

10 I’m going to give a summary, I don’t claim that 

11 it’s brief, of the proposal ahead of us. And we 

12 look forward to welcoming speakers at the end of 

13 that. I will also have some housekeeping and a 

14 description of how this process is going to work. 

15 So to begin, fossil fuel-fired power 

16 plants are the largest source of U.S. carbon 

17 dioxide emissions, or carbon pollution, 

18 accounting for thirty-one percent of U.S. total 

19 greenhouse gas emissions. Reducing carbon 

20 pollution from power plants is an essential step 

21 in lessening the impacts of climate change and 

22 providing a more certain future for our 
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1 environment, our health and future generations. 

2 We are here today to listen to your 

3 comments on the EPA’s proposed federal plan and 

4 model rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 

5 Existing Power Plants. 

6 On October 23rd, 2015 the U.S. 

7 Environmental Protection Agency -- 

8 MS. HIGHT: Do you want to see if the 

9 other one is working? 

10 MS. NOONAN: Yeah. Hello -- I will just 

11 speak loudly. If you can’t hear me, please feel 

12 free to move to the front. 

13 On October 23rd, the U.S.E.P.A. 

14 established -- published in the Federal Register, 

15 its proposed federal plan to implement emission 

16 guidelines for power plants under section 111(d) 

17 of the Clean Power -- of the Clean Air Act. The 

18 EPA’s 111(d) rule, known as the Clean Power Plan, 

19 takes effect on December 22, 2015 and applies to 

20 affected power plants that began construction on 

21 or before January 8, 2014. 

22 The federal plan and model trading rules 
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1 demonstrate a readily available path forward for 

2 Clean Power Plan implementation and present 

3 flexible, affordable implementation options for 

4 states. 

5 The model rules provide a cost-effective 

6 pathway to adopt a trading system supported by 

7 the EPA and make it easy for states and power 

8 plants to use emissions trading. It does the 

9 heavy lifting for states who may choose to use a 

10 model rule as their state plan. The EPA would 

11 implement the federal plan in any state that does 

12 not submit an approvable plan. 

13 This proposal includes four discrete 

14 proposed actions. One, a rate-based federal plan 

15 for each state with affected Electric Generating 

16 Units, or EGUs. A mass-based federal plan for 

17 each state with affected EGUs. A rate-based 

18 model trading rule for potential use by any 

19 state. And a mass-based model trading rule for 

20 potential use by any state. 

21 The proposed federal plans will achieve 

22 the same levels of emissions performance as 
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1 required of state plans under the Clean Power 

2 Plan. Federal plans will be finalized only for 

3 those states with affected EGUs that the EPA 

4 determines have failed to submit an approvable 

5 111(d) state plan by the relevant deadlines set 

6 in the emission guidelines. 

7 In those states where a federal plan may 

8 be required, a final federal plan will implement 

9 the same emission guidelines for affected power 

10 plants outlined in the Clean Power Plan. It 

11 would not require additional control requirements 

12 or impose additional costs. 

13 Even where a federal plan is put in place 

14 for a particular state, that state will still be 

15 able to submit a plan, which, if approved, will 

16 allow the state and its sources to exit the 

17 federal plan. States may take delegation of 

18 administrative aspects of the federal plan in 

19 order to become the primary implementers, or 

20 submit partial state plans in order to take over 

21 the implementation of a portion of a federal 

22 plan. States operating under a federal plan may 
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1 adopt complimentary measures outside of that plan 

2 to facilitate compliance and lower costs to the 

3 benefit of the power generators and consumers. 

4 The proposal also includes, excuse me, 

5 model rules for those states that are developing 

6 their own state plans. The EPA intends to 

7 finalize both rate-based and mass-based model 

8 trading rules in the summer of 2016. 

9 A state program that adheres to the model 

10 trading rule provision specified in this 

11 rulemaking, when final, would be presumptively be 

12 approvable. There are stand-alone portions of 

13 the model trading rules, such as the evaluation, 

14 measurement and verification procedures for 

15 emission rate credits, also known as (ERCs), that 

16 would be approvable even if a state adopted an 

17 approach that differs in the other respects from 

18 the model rule. 

19 In addition, the proposal contains: 

20 A finding that it is necessary or appropriate to 

21 implement a section 111(d) federal plan for the 

22 affected EGUs located in Indian country. CO2 
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1 emission performance rates for these facilities 

2 were finalized in the final Clean Power Plan. 

3 And information on how the EPA will reach 

4 out to communities throughout the comment period 

5 and an overview of the actions that the EPA is 

6 taking to ensure that vulnerable communities are 

7 not being disproportionately impacted by this 

8 rulemaking. 

9 If you would like more details on the 

10 proposed rule there are fact sheets available at 

11 the registration desk and out on a table in the 

12 hallway here. Before we get started, I’d like to 

13 go through a few housekeeping items and ground 

14 rules that will help today’s hearing run 

15 smoothly. 

16 First, please be sure you have checked in 

17 at the registration desk even if you are not 

18 planning on speaking today. And if you speak -- 

19 if you signed up to speak online or by phone but 

20 haven’t told us that you’re here yet, please step 

21 out to the registration desk and let the EPA 

22 staff know that you have arrived. 
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1 I will call the speakers up in pairs. 

2 When your name is called, please come to the 

3 speakers’ table at the front of the room. When I 

4 call on you to speak, please state your name and 

5 spell it for the court reporter. Your comments 

6 will be transcribed and included in the record of 

7 comments on the proposed rule. 

8 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

9 give comments. We have a timer light to help you 

10 know how much time you have left to speak. When 

11 the light turns from green to yellow, that means 

12 you have one minute remaining. When it turns to 

13 red, that’s a signal that you are at five 

14 minutes, and it’s time to stop. When you are 

15 finished speaking, please remain at the table 

16 until the person next to you has completed his or 

17 her testimony. 

18 We are here to listen to you today; 

19 however, a panel member may ask a clarifying 

20 question. After we have completed that process, 

21 I will call up the next pair of speakers and so 

22 on. 
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1 If you have brought a written copy of 

2 your testimony, please give that to one of us, 

3 the court reporter or the staff at the 

4 registration desk before you leave today. We 

5 will put any written comments submitted today in 

6 the official docket for the proposed rule. 

7 We also have comment cards available at 

8 the registration desk and again on the table 

9 outside, if you would like to submit additional 

10 written comments today. 

11 If you want to comment in writing later, 

12 stop by the materials table near the registration 

13 desk and pick up a copy of the instructions for 

14 submitting written comments. Comments must be 

15 received by January 21, 20116. 

16 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

17 much consideration to comments submitted in 

18 writing as we do at public hearings like this 

19 one. So if you have more comments that you would 

20 like to provide to the EPA, please submit them by 

21 the comment period deadline. Your comments will 

22 be reviewed. 
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1 If you have any questions during the day, 

2 please see the staff at the registration desk, 

3 and someone will assist you. 

4 Again, thank you for taking the time to 

5 come today and we look forward to hearing your 

6 comments. Let’s get started. 

7 And again, I apologize for the microphone 

8 -- I will try again. 

9 Okay. There we go. Christian Reese and 

10 Kathy Tollman. And on deck we have Commissioner 

11 John Kinkaid and Mayor Ray Beck. See how the 

12 microphone works. 

13 MR. REESE: They work good. Thank you 

14 for holding this public hearing, first and 

15 foremost, and thank you to all of the folks who 

16 went through the treacherous weather to be here 

17 today. 

18 My name is Christian Reese and I am the 

19 executive director of CLUB 20, an organization 

20 that represents the interests of businesses, 

21 individuals, and local governments in twenty-two 

22 counties in Western Colorado. 
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1 We were founded in 1953 -- 

2 MS. HIGHT: If you hit -- it must be, you 

3 may be accidentally hitting the button on the 

4 side. 

5 MS. NOONAN: We can hear you. 

6 MS. REESE: Okay. I speak loudly. 

7 Founded in 1953, CLUB 20 has a diverse membership 

8 of over 1100 members representing interests 

9 ranging from education, transportation, and 

10 energy. Our bi-partisan leadership on a 

11 multitude of issues has given us credibility as 

12 the most influential voice in Western Colorado. 

13 I am here with you today to highlight the 

14 importance of the coal industry in Western 

15 Colorado and the number of lives it directly 

16 impacts in our communities. With an annual 

17 economic impact of over 2.8 billion dollars to 

18 Colorado’s Gross Domestic Product, Colorado’s 

19 coal industry directly employs 6,200 individuals 

20 and indirectly contributes to more than 23,000 

21 jobs in our region. These individuals are highly 

22 compensated for their time, averaging over 
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1 110,000.00 in wages and benefits per employee 

2 annually. In these difficult economic times, 

3 high paying jobs in our rural communities are 

4 rare and these jobs allow families to contribute 

5 back to our local economies. 

6 Colorado’s eight coal mines and three of 

7 the state’s coal-fired power plants all reside 

8 within Western Colorado. Each of these 

9 operations employs locals who have a commitment 

10 to protecting and preserving the land that makes 

11 their communities worth living in. We can find 

12 no better stewards of our lands and environment 

13 than the locals who live, hunt and recreate on 

14 them. 

15 Currently, sixty percent of Colorado’s 

16 energy portfolio is the result of energy produced 

17 by coal. With new regulations we will see a 

18 drastic reduction in coal production which will 

19 result in higher energy prices for our already 

20 struggling Western Colorado families. In fact, 

21 we have already seen a fifty percent reduction in 

22 coal production over the last couple of years and 
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1 Colorado has a lot its largest export market due 

2 to regulations with intentions similar to this 

3 proposal. Our rural communities cannot afford 

4 the loss in jobs and increase in energy rates 

5 that would come as a result of the Clean Power 

6 Plan. 

7 The implementation of the Clean Power 

8 Plan will have significant impacts to the State 

9 of Colorado and the country as a whole, 

10 increasing electric costs for consumers, damaging 

11 local economies, and will cost our state 

12 incalculable resources to fully implement without 

13 measureable outcomes. 

14 While the intent of the Clean Power Plan 

15 is to reduce carbon emissions impacting our 

16 constantly changing climate, it falls short in 

17 describing how the EPA will actually measure and 

18 quantify these carbon regulations -- or carbon 

19 reductions, I apologize. In fact, EPA officials 

20 admit that climate change impacts will be 

21 virtually immeasurable, reducing global 

22 temperatures by 16 thousandths of one degree 
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1 Fahrenheit. 

2 If the intent of the EPA and our current 

3 administration is to reduce global carbon 

4 emissions to have a measureable impact on climate 

5 change, we must address the carbon impact of 

6 foreign countries, such as China. China emits 

7 more carbon dioxide in one month, 800 million 

8 tons, than the Clean Power Plan reduces in one 

9 year, 550 million tons. 

10 If we are truly genuine about the intent 

11 of this plan, we must address the worst offenders 

12 of carbon emissions and work toward foreign 

13 policies to reign in the pollution of foreign 

14 countries. 

15 While the results of the Clean Power Plan 

16 will be largely immeasurable, the economics of 

17 this plan will be numerous. The Clean Power 

18 Plan, if implemented, will be the most expensive 

19 regulation imposed on the power sector in our 

20 nation’s history. This plan will not only result 

21 in the closure of electric generating plants 

22 across the country, but will also cost high 
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1 paying jobs, putting families out of work in an 

2 already struggling economy. 

3 The plan will also drastically increase 

4 consumers’ cost to purchase electricity to run 

5 their businesses, educate their children and heat 

6 homes during the winter. In Colorado alone, it 

7 is projected that electric rates will increase by 

8 more than nineteen percent by 2030, costing 

9 already struggling families an estimated 400.00 

10 per year in additional utility bills. 

11 Many power plants will turn to natural 

12 gas as a replacement for coal, utilizing a fuel 

13 source with a tumultuous and frequently varying 

14 commodity that has a higher cost for electric 

15 generation than coal. The utilization of natural 

16 gas will also increase utility bills for 

17 commercial and industrial customers who will 

18 ultimately pass these expenses along to 

19 customers, inflating the prices for goods and 

20 services. 

21 Additionally, the increased demand on 

22 natural gas from the power sector will cause 
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1 natural gas prices across the board to rise. It 

2 is projected that natural gas prices will more 

3 than double in cost by 2030, forcing many low 

4 income and rural families to choose between 

5 heating their homes and providing for their 

6 families. 

7 Concerns about the increased consumer 

8 prices and wide-ranging economic impacts of the 

9 Clean Power Plan have prompted more than half of 

10 the states, including Colorado, to take legal 

11 action to stop the implementation of the Clean 

12 Power Plan. If successful, this litigation will 

13 protect Colorado consumers from the crippling 

14 economic impact of the Clean Power Plan and allow 

15 for a more thoughtful, strategic and realistic 

16 plan to address environmental and economic 

17 concerns. 

18 With some of the cleanest coal in the 

19 country being produced right here in Colorado, we 

20 must fight to have sensible regulations that lend 

21 themselves to maximum economic recovery of our 

22 coal reserves. We have an obligation not only to 
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1 ourselves but to future generations to protect 

2 coal production and electric generation, ensure 

3 energy costs remain affordable and utilize this 

4 precious resource for generations to come. We 

5 cannot afford to “leave coal in the ground” and 

6 we must continue to work together for a solution 

7 that protects our communities both 

8 environmentally and economically. Thank you. 

9 COURT REPORTER: Can I get the spelling 

10 of your name? 

11 MS. REESE: Yeah. 

12 MS. TOLMAN: My name is Kathy Tolman, T13 O-L-M-A-N. And I am just a citizen from Wheat 

14 Ridge. And so I just I just wanted to talk a 

15 little bit about that coal has problems but 

16 regulation isn’t all of the source of its 

17 problems. And we are moving forward -- we as 

18 people are moving forward. So it’s kind of like 

19 if you were a manufacturer of buggy whips, you 

20 know, that just ended up going away. And that’s 

21 where we are with coal. 

22 Coal is faced with serious competition 
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1 with natural gas. And so, you know, everything 

2 these days is global. And the coal issue is 

3 global because climate change is global. And 

4 people are responding to this across the globe. 

5 And so new technologies are coming forward, and 

6 will continue to come forward. And that’s always 

7 been the driver for new technologies, is the 

8 needs -- when needs change. 

9 And we are at a time when needs are 

10 changing. My concern is that we create and 

11 consciously think about how we create -- how we 

12 do this. Create win/win situations so that the 

13 communities that are coal communities where coal 

14 mines have been the major source of employment, 

15 that they do not suffer. And it’s not like I 

16 have a solution to those but I wanted us to keep 

17 that in mind, that we need to look at these 

18 communities as not disposable communities, but as 

19 communities that we need to bring along with the 

20 changes that come along. 

21 I also wanted to just let you know of a 

22 good article that was in Sunday’s Post, Denver 
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1 Post, called Coal blocks view of coals trouble. 

2 And it was written by Elizabeth Shogren from High 

3 Country News. And it’s a good article about our 

4 -- Colorado's problems. Thank you. 

5 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. 

6 Commissioner John Kinkaid and Mayor Ray Beck, 

7 please. And on deck we have John Graves and 

8 Katie Dittelberger, please. 

9 MR. KINKAID: John Kinkaid, K-i-n -- 

10 MS. NOONAN: Try this button on the side, 

11 see if it turns to green. 

12 MR. KINKAID: K-I-N-K-A-I-D. 

13 I will try to speak up. 

14 MS. NOONAN: Please, thank you. 

15 MR. KINKAID: I wanted to visit with you 

16 this morning about my community and my county. 

17 I’m from Moffat County, Colorado. And in Moffat 

18 County we have two coal mines and one power 

19 plant. And then in Northwest Colorado we have 

20 two power plants and four coal mines. So we feel 

21 like we are at the heart of -- we are at ground22 zero for the war on coal. 
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1 And I wanted to tell you about my son. 

2 My son graduated from college at Western State 

3 University in Gunnison in 2008 when the great 

4 recession hit. And my daughter-in-law graduated 

5 that same year from Western State. He couldn't 

6 find a job in his field, which was biochemistry. 

7 And my daughter-in-law couldn’t find a job in her 

8 field, which was psychology. 

9 They wound up moving to Floresta, 

10 Colorado. And my son went to work as a laborer 

11 at a saw mill and my daughter-in-law wound up 

12 using her Bachelor of Science to work at Taco 

13 Bell. Financially the wheels came off for them 

14 and they wound up moving in with us in Craig. 

15 When they did that, my son was able to get a job 

16 at Twentymile Coal Mine, which is in our 

17 neighboring Routt, and my daughter-in-law got a 

18 job for social services with her psychology 

19 degree. That got them back on their feet. So 

20 it’s a story about coal. And that let them buy 

21 their own home, it let them -- they now have a 

22 mortgage and two car payments and they are doing 
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1 quite well. 

2 And my son left the coal mine and went to 

3 work at Tri-State’s Craig Station. He now works 

4 in their laboratory. So now because of coal, he 

5 is able to use his degree in biochemistry in the 

6 laboratory for Craig Station Power Plant. And my 

7 daughter-in-law uses her psychology degree for 

8 the Department of Social Services. So I just 

9 wanted to share that story. And that’s just one 

10 story of hundreds of stories that highlight how 

11 important coal is to our local economy and the 

12 well-being of citizens, our neighbors. 

13 It’s just huge. And quite frankly, we 

14 have never recovered from the great recession 

15 because of the state legislature here in 

16 Colorado. There was a fuel switching bill for 

17 Excel Energy to switch from coal to natural gas. 

18 And that caused Twentymile mine to lay off 

19 workers. So we’re still not recovered from that. 

20 Moffat County has lost several citizens that had 

21 to move away. Last I knew, we had two hundred 

22 homes for sale, which doesn’t sound like much in 
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1 Denver, but in our area two hundred homes for 

2 sale is quite a lot. 

3 Our labor participation rate is 70.9 

4 percent. So we have people who have given up 

5 looking for work. And quite frankly, our social 

6 services department is hammered with people 

7 needing assistance right now. And we are having 

8 a lot of trouble with young kids right now too. 

9 And I think it’s all because of the economic 

10 stress that their parents are facing. And it’s 

11 just -- we have got a lot of things going for us 

12 but we could really use some regulatory help. 

13 And the war on coal is making a very negative 

14 impact -- is having a very negative impact on our 

15 area. 

16 These are jobs. I retired from Craig 

17 Station as a control room operator when I -- 

18 after I was elected county commissioner. And I 

19 worked at Craig Station for thirty-three years. 

20 And when I left I was making 95,000.00 a year 

21 plus benefits. And these jobs, they’re not going 

22 to -- I just don’t see how we can replace those 
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1 jobs. You know, a service sector job isn’t going 

2 to -- a service sector job would be a third of 

3 the salary of a power plant job or a coal mine 

4 job. And there’s just -- there’s no replacement. 

5 I just -- I would ask the EPA to rethink things. 

6 And keep in mind that the well-being and 

7 livelihoods of real people, real Americans with 

8 real jobs and mortgages and kids that are going 

9 to be going to college -- you know, their lives 

10 are hanging in balance here. So I just wanted to 

11 share that with you. Thanks. 

12 MR. BECK: Good morning. My name is Ray 

13 Beck, last name is B-E-C-K. I am the Mayor of 

14 Craig, Colorado. Our community is extremely 

15 concerned about the implementation of the Clean 

16 Power Plan, whether it is implemented under the 

17 state plan or a Federal Implementation Plan. We 

18 are fortunate to have a major power plant and 

19 coal mine which provides a strong economic base 

20 for our community. 

21 The Tri-State coal fired power in Craig, 

22 Colorado employs 306 people accounting for seven 
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1 percent of the jobs in Moffat County. Annual 

2 planned maintenance outages bring in another two 

3 hundred to four hundred transitory workers per 

4 project. The payroll and benefits for the 306 

5 employees is about 33.9 million per year, 

6 accounting for nearly seventeen percent of the 

7 wages and benefits generated annually in Moffat 

8 County. Of that 33.9 million, approximately 28.2 

9 million is paid directly to individuals and 

10 organizations in the region. 

11 The Craig Station tops 276 million 

12 annually in direct spending with about 214 

13 million of that being spent at the local level. 

14 Purchases of capital equipment, spare and 

15 replacement parts and other personal property 

16 total 17.1 million per year or 2.2 million with 

17 local businesses and venders in Craig and Moffat 

18 County. The Union Pacific Railroad delivers coal 

19 daily to the power plant and those freight 

20 expenses associated with the delivery of coal 

21 total 8.7 million on an annual basis. These 

22 transactions are entirely within Moffat County. 
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1 Tri-State is Moffat County’s leading 

2 taxpayer and by itself accounts for 19.1 percent 

3 of the county’s tax base. Using a very 

4 conservative economic multiplier of 2.44, the 

5 estimated indirect economic impacts of local 

6 expenditures by the 306 employees is equivalent 

7 to 748 jobs throughout Craig and Moffat County. 

8 Under Clean Power Plan, our community 

9 would lose the current jobs from the power plant 

10 and mine and utility customers would lose the 

11 power produced. We could not replace those lost 

12 jobs and revenues in our community with renewable 

13 power. Craig Station provides approximately 1300 

14 megawatts of base load power to the grid. It 

15 would be difficult, if not impossible, to replace 

16 that with wind power generated in Moffat County 

17 if you consider the land area that is required. 

18 As a comparison, the Shepherd’s Farm 

19 facility in Oregon requires 32,000 acres to 

20 produce 750 megawatts of non-base load 

21 electricity. And that is one of the largest wind 

22 farms in the country. Other constraints here 
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1 include the terrain, additional power lines 

2 required, and the fact that we are in sage grouse 

3 habitat, which could restrict the land impact. 

4 And even assuming renewable generation could be 

5 sited in our community once the construction is 

6 completed most of the newly created renewable 

7 jobs go away. 

8 Moffat County is the second largest 

9 county in Colorado in land mass. And we are an 

10 extraction county that depends on the energy 

11 industry to support our local economy and our 

12 quality way of life. Craig and Moffat County are 

13 the epicenter of outside sources attacking our 

14 quality way of life and the economy through the 

15 overreaching of rules and regulations. The Clean 

16 Power Plan, whether implemented either by the 

17 state or the federal government, will cripple the 

18 county to the point that we will see a smaller 

19 tax base that pays for goods and services and we 

20 will see families and businesses leaving our 

21 community. It will then be difficult to recover 

22 from this type of devastation. It could take 
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1 years and even up to decades to recover. 

2 Everyone wants to see a better 

3 environment with clear skies and clean air to 

4 breathe. And we already have that here in 

5 Northwest Colorado through the efforts of the 

6 industry, including coal. With ever-increasing 

7 air quality standards and now the requirement to 

8 reduce CO2 emissions thirty-two percent by 2030, 

9 the electric rates will rise significantly. 

10 Higher electricity costs will hurt any new 

11 business we might attract, in addition to the 

12 people who live in Colorado, Northwest Colorado. 

13 The Craig Station uses coal that is low 

14 in sulfur and mercury, which has benefitted the 

15 environment. The Craig power plant has gone 

16 above and beyond mitigating its emissions over 

17 the years by adding controls and upgrading its 

18 operation. Even though the stated purpose of the 

19 Clean Power Plan is to reduce greenhouse gas 

20 emissions and help prevent climate change, the 

21 Clean Power Plan under the 111(d) rule will have 

22 no impact. It will only reduce atmospheric CO2 
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1 concentrations by 0.2 percent, decrease global 

2 average temperature by 0.01 degree or 1/100of one 

3 degree, and reduce sea level rise by 0.20 

4 millimeter, the thickness of two sheets of paper. 

5 Whether the 111(d) rules are implemented 

6 through the state plan or the federal implemented 

7 plan, they will be devastating -- this will be 

8 devastating to Craig, Colorado and Moffat County. 

9 Thank you for your time. 

10 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. John Graves 

11 and Katie Dittelberger. I’m sure I mangled that 

12 and I apologize. 

13 MR. GRAVES: Good morning. My name is 

14 John Graves and I am the environmental manager 

15 for Minnkota Power Cooperative. We are a 

16 regional GNT cooperative. We serve eleven member 

17 owned co-ops. We have -- we operate two coal 

18 fired units, one rated to produce about 250 

19 megawatts and the other producing 455 megawatts. 

20 We also are the operating agent for Northern 

21 Municipal Power Agency, which is comprised of 

22 twelve municipalities. And they own thirty 
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1 percent of another coal fired station. 

2 I hope to briefly address some of the 

3 items that the EPA had requested comment on, 

4 which was a significant list that you are seeking 

5 comment on. 

6 Some of them are pretty basic, such as 

7 should the allowance system be on metric tons or 

8 short tons, that type of thing. And as with Acid 

9 Rain rules, we certainly feel the easiest and 

10 simplest way is that one allowance should be one 

11 short -- represent one short ton of CO2. 

12 They also requested comment on what the 

13 allowance allocation should be based upon, 

14 whether it should be an average of the years 2010 

15 through 2012. In general, we believe that that 

16 is good. However, we think that because power 

17 plants -- various things happen to them, 

18 unfortunately, from time to time. They may have 

19 a major outage during that period of time, that 

20 it would be better to select the two high years 

21 out of that three year time frame and base the 

22 allowance allocation on that. 
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1 And states should have the option of 

2 distributing all of those allowances without the 

3 use of the various set-asides that the EPA is 

4 considering. And under the Federal plan, this 

5 should be an option for all of the sources should 

6 the states desire it. 

7 One other item that the -- that is 

8 perplexed and that the EPA had requested comment 

9 on was whether or not allowances should have a -- 

10 basically a two year life span after a facility 

11 is shut down. We believe that they -- once 

12 allowances are issued, that they should be issued 

13 to a facility in perpetuity. Those allowances 

14 should remain with that facility. This includes 

15 EGUs which may be put into long term coal 

16 storage. Units that are modified or 

17 reconstructed should be treated just like a 

18 retired unit from an allowance perspective. 

19 The EPA has indicated they are addressing 

20 the remaining useful life of the plants in part 

21 by considering trading. However, not issuing 

22 allowances to an EGU after two years restricts 
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1 that allowance trading. Additionally, it’s at 

2 this point in time conjecture as to how strong an 

3 allowance trading market will be. The EPA in 

4 this rule and other -- the clean -- the original 

5 Clean Power Plan Rule had indicated they 

6 anticipate a very robust trading market there. 

7 They base the IPM model that was utilized also 

8 was counting on there being a robust trading 

9 market. However, at this point in time that is 

10 conjecture. The regulations however are going to 

11 be issued now. So the regulations should take 

12 into account that that trading market may not be 

13 as robust, and in fact may be limited. 

14 Obviously allowances should be able to be 

15 traded not only regionally but nationwide. 

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. You 

17 can submit the rest of your comments. 

18 MR. GRAVES: These are just my notes so I 

19 -- sorry. 

20 MS. NOONAN: No, that’s fine. Thank you. 

21 Go ahead. 

22 MR. GRAVES: We will be submitting 
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1 written comments. 

2 MS. NOONAN: If you could stay right 

3 there, that’s great. Thank you. 

4 MS. DITTELBERGER: Hi, my name is Katie 

5 Dittelberger and I am an associate attorney at 

6 Earth Justice here in the Rocky Mountain office. 

7 MS. NOONAN: Can you spell your name? 

8 MS. DITTELBERGER: Sure. K-A-T-I-E, 

9 Dittelberger, D-I-T-T-E-L-B-E-R-G-E-R. 

10 You will have to forgive me for looking 

11 down at my phone for part of this, I just 

12 received some notes from our D.C. office this 

13 morning. 

14 So first of all we wanted to thank EPA 

15 for promulgating the Clean Power Plan, which is a 

16 good step in the right direction towards reducing 

17 carbon emissions from this sector of our economy. 

18 The EPA should continue to do everything 

19 in its power to work to reduce the worst effects 

20 of climate change for this generation, and future 

21 generations, and the health of our entire planet. 

22 And we appreciate you taking this good step. 
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1 We also wanted to thank EPA for creating 

2 a plan that allows states maximum flexibility so 

3 that each individual state can choose how to 

4 implement carbon reductions in a way that makes 

5 sense for the economy in that state. 

6 However, some states have indicated that 

7 they may choose to forego this opportunity to 

8 create customized state specific plans and other 

9 states may not submit acceptable plans. Hence the 

10 necessity of the present Federal Implementation 

11 Plan which acts as both a model for states to 

12 help them create their plans moving forward and 

13 as a backstop for states that refuse to submit 

14 plans or that submit unacceptable plans. 

15 It is important to note that the EPA is 

16 required to ensure that the model FIP and the 

17 resulting state FIPs comply with executive order 

18 12898 on environmental justice. And specifically 

19 EPA should comply with the following criteria. 

20 And I will elaborate about one of them. 

21 First, EPA must ensure that the FIP 

22 provides protections and benefits for minority 
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1 low income and indigenous communities that 

2 unfortunately oftentimes experience the worst 

3 impacts of pollution from fossil fuels, and may 

4 also experience the worst impacts of climate 

5 change. 

6 Number two, EPA should refuse to give 

7 away allowances to heavily polluting sources that 

8 are often cited in Environmental Justice 

9 concerns. 

10 Number three -- and I will elaborate on 

11 this one if I have a little time. EPA should 

12 exclude waste incineration and biomass 

13 incineration renewable incentives because per 

14 unit of energy, burning waste and biomass 

15 actually releases more carbon than burning coal. 

16 Additionally, these facilities are often located 

17 near underprivileged communities and therefore 

18 present environmental justice concerns. And if I 

19 have time I will elaborate on that one. 

20 Number four, EPA should maximize 

21 utilities incentives to invest in energy 

22 efficiency which lowers household energy bills. 
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1 And that’s particularly important to low income 

2 community members. 

3 Number five, EPA should include an 

4 enforceable deadline for completion of EPA’s 

5 proposed assessment of local air quality impacts 

6 which identifies at risk communities. 

7 And finally, EPA must require 

8 consultation with Clean Power Plan environmental 

9 justice coordinators and the relevant EPA 

10 regional office on community engagement, 

11 including an opportunity for comment on 

12 environmental justice impacts. 

13 Do I have another minute or so? 

14 MS. NOONAN: A minute-and-a-half. 

15 MS. DITTELBERGER: Great. Regarding the 

16 biomass and waste incineration, even if EPA could 

17 rationally conclude that over the long term 

18 burning a few specific types of biomass can under 

19 certain circumstances result in fewer carbon 

20 emissions than burning fossil fuels, EPA cannot 

21 allow the inclusion of biomass as an eligible 

22 compliance measure in the FIP without providing 
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1 notice of the agencies’ intended approach to 

2 identifying “qualified biomass feedstocks.” 

3 The proposed FIP states that using “some 

4 kinds of biomass may have carbon benefits but 

5 only if the feedstocks are sourced responsibly 

6 and attributes of the carbon cycle related to the 

7 biomass feedstock are then taken into account.” 

8 But in the proposed FIP, EPA has not suggested a 

9 specific method for how to assess these two 

10 factors. The fact that the agency has not been 

11 able to identify a concrete approach for this 

12 important determination is a strong indicator 

13 that the inclusion of biomass derived fuels as a 

14 compliance strategy is not defensible. But more 

15 immediately, finalizing an FIP that allows the 

16 use of qualified biomass without proposing a 

17 specific approach for how the agency could 

18 determine which biomass feedstocks qualify and 

19 under what circumstances further cements the 

20 unjustified conclusion that biomass burning has a 

21 role to play in reducing carbon emissions. And 

22 thank you very much. 
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1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. 

2 All right. We are going to take a ten 

3 minute break and then we will return at five of. 

4 (Whereupon, at 9:43 a.m. short recess was 

5 taken.) 

6 9:55 a.m. 

7 MS. NOONAN: Jeff Brown. 

8 MR. BROWN: I’m Jeff Brown, spelled J-E9 F-F, B-R-O-W-N. 

10 So good morning. I’m Jeff Brown from 

11 Pacific Gas and Electric Company. PG&E has 

12 combined natural gas and electric utility that 

13 provides energy to 15 million Californians. We 

14 currently have a very clean electricity portfolio 

15 with more than fifty percent of our electricity 

16 coming from greenhouse gas emissions-free 

17 resources, including biomass, wind, solar, 

18 geothermal, nuclear, and the country’s largest 

19 investor-owned hydropower system. 

20 PG&E operates in a state that has already 

21 adopted several statutory and regulatory 

22 initiatives to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 
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1 from the electric power sector. These programs 

2 which PG&E has supported and played an integral 

3 role in implementing are working successfully. 

4 We have a resource “loading order” that requires 

5 us to meet customer demand through cost-effective 

6 energy efficiency and demand response followed by 

7 renewables and non-emitting resources, with the 

8 remainder of demand met by highly efficient 

9 natural gas power plants. We also have a thirty10 three percent by 2030 and fifty percent by 2030 

11 renewable standard. 

12 Finally, California has enacted and is 

13 implementing AB 32, a comprehensive economy-wide 

14 GHG emissions law designed to reduce statewide 

15 emissions to 1990 levels by 2020. A key policy 

16 for achieving this emission goal is the mass17 based emission budget trading program that has 

18 been operating successfully in California since 

19 2013. This program provides consistent 

20 incentives for GHG reduction across the 

21 California economy, supports the achievement of 

22 the state’s GHG emissions goal, and affords 
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1 significant flexibility in where, when, and how 

2 abatement occurs. 

3 With this background and experience in 

4 mind, we would like to address four issues raised 

5 in the proposal. 

6 First, we support EPA’s proposal to 

7 finalize a single approach for the federal plan. 

8 We agree that the broader trading allowed by a 

9 single approach is likely to lower total 

10 compliance costs. A consistent approach is also 

11 likely to produce more efficient electric market 

12 outcomes. 

13 We support the mass-based option as the 

14 single approach under the Federal plan. 

15 Regulated entities, states, and EPA have 

16 significant experience with mass-based trading 

17 approaches in California and the RGGI states, as 

18 well as with other criteria pollutant programs 

19 such as the Acid Rain Program. These programs 

20 are administratively simpler to implement than 

21 rate-based alternatives and have performed well. 

22 Mass-based programs are also likely to cost less 
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1 to achieve similar levels of emissions 

2 performance, as EPA’s own analysis suggests. 

3 Second, we support EPA’s proposal to 

4 establish the Federal plan programs as “trading 

5 ready”, available to trade with other states that 

6 are similarly designated “trading ready”. We 

7 believe that allowing for allowance trading 

8 across state lines holds significant promise as a 

9 means of reducing compliance costs. Such trading 

10 would also result in a uniform GHG price across 

11 participating states, which will promote 

12 efficient investment and dispatch in power 

13 markets. 

14 PG&E has conducted an initial modeling 

15 analysis with ICF using the IPM model to explore 

16 potential CPP compliance approaches. Our 

17 analysis finds that broadening the scope of 

18 allowance trading under the CPP significantly 

19 reduces compliance costs. 

20 As for EPA’s proposed conditions for 

21 being approved as “trading ready” with the 

22 Federal plan, we encourage EPA to work with 
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1 California’s Air Resources Board to ensure that 

2 there is a clear pathway for California to 

3 qualify as “trading ready” with the Federal plan. 

4 We note that several technical areas such as the 

5 type of compliance instruments and tracking 

6 systems could raise barriers to California’s 

7 participation in a broader trading program. We 

8 encourage EPA to finalize a Federal plan that 

9 resolves these technical issues in a way that 

10 provides California the flexibility to 

11 participate in broad allowance trading. 

12 Third, we agree with EPA that mass-based 

13 existing-only programs would create incentives 

14 for leakage to new sources that would not be 

15 present under the rate-based program. We believe 

16 there is both an emissions and a level playing 

17 field interest in preventing such leakage. We’d 

18 like to see additional analysis on the 

19 effectiveness of the proposed output-based set20 asides at addressing emissions leakage to new 

21 sources under plan designs that only cover 

22 existing sources. In particular, we encourage 
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1 exploration of larger leakage mitigation set2 asides. 

3 Finally, we encourage EPA to review 

4 California’s experience allocating allowances in 

5 the power sector under AB 32 as we believe it is 

6 a useful model for the allocation of the 

7 remaining allowances not used for early action or 

8 leakage mitigation. In particular, allocation to 

9 rate-regulated entities is critical to ensuring 

10 that free allowances are exclusively used for 

11 electric customer benefit. As part of transition 

12 assistance, the Air Resources Board has allocated 

13 allowances to rate-regulated electric utilities 

14 in California for the benefit of their customers. 

15 The return to customers of the value of the 

16 allocation is overseen by the utility regulator 

17 or the local governing board for POUs. For the 

18 investor owned utilities overseen by the CPUC, 

19 this return has mostly taken the form of a 

20 biannual bill credit for residential customers. 

21 So thank you for the opportunity to 

22 provide these comments. PG&E looks forward to 
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1 working with EPA, the State of California and 

2 concerned stakeholders to develop a flexible and 

3 cost-effective GHG reduction program that 

4 achieves meaningful GHG reductions nationwide. 

5 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Up next we have 

6 Ann Livingston and Anna McDevitt. 

7 MS. MCDEVITT: Thank you so much. My 

8 name is Anna McDevitt. I am a campaign organizer 

9 with Environment Colorado, I run our climate work 

10 in the State of Colorado. 

11 So first I just want to say thank you so 

12 much for having these hearings and listening to 

13 the public on these issues. I want to thank the 

14 Obama Administration and the President and the 

15 EPA for the Clean Power Plan. Power plants are 

16 the biggest source of carbon pollution in our 

17 country, contributing forty percent of our global 

18 warming pollution. So this is a big step 

19 forward. And Environment Colorado, we are very 

20 excited about it. 

21 So I just wanted to come to share a 

22 little bit about the work that I have done for 
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1 the last year-and-a-half, listening to Colorado’s 

2 citizens about why they want to see our power 

3 plants cleaned up. You know, some of my biggest 

4 highlights I have are meeting with farmers who 

5 told me that because of the impacts of global 

6 warming, they no longer can count on a specific 

7 time of year that they can grow their -- start 

8 planting their tomatoes. You know, they have 

9 been doing it the same way for decades. And in 

10 the last couple of years, they can’t count on it 

11 anymore. And scientists have linked that to 

12 global warming. 

13 You know, the residents of Pinewood 

14 Springs and Lyons that I have met with who were 

15 devastated by the historic flooding in 2013, 

16 floods that scientists have said will only get 

17 worse, more extreme and more frequent due to 

18 climate change. It’s no longer going to be a one 

19 hundred year flood. And moms who are concerned 

20 about their children’s future. You know, we have 

21 worked with Moms Clean Air Force and neighborhood 

22 family groups who have said they just don’t know 
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1 what they can expect for their children when it 

2 comes to the environment that they love here in 

3 Colorado, that they have grown up with or the air 

4 -- the clean air that they have known in 

5 Colorado. That might not be the case if we 

6 don’t, you know, cut carbon pollution rapidly and 

7 responsively across the country. And so those 

8 are some of the important stories that I wanted 

9 to share. And then I think that on top of the 

10 stories it’s just no surprise that, you know, 

11 global warming is happening. The scientists are 

12 showing it, that we have got wild fires happening 

13 more frequently in the state, we can expect less 

14 snow melt, but at the same time we can expect 

15 when we do have a lot of snowfall for it to be 

16 more extreme. You know, to the point where it 

17 might be a weather related disaster where we 

18 don’t have the resources to make sure that people 

19 are safe when that happens. 

20 And so we at Environment Colorado want to 

21 make sure that we are doing everything possible 

22 to clean up power plants. And we are excited 
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1 about the opportunity to do so. You know, in the 

2 State of Colorado we certainly have the 

3 technology to move forward with renewable energy 

4 sources. It’s an economic opportunity really. 

5 Even just last year across the country, there 

6 were over 173,000 jobs in the solar industry. 

7 And, you know, with a plan like this with really 

8 good strong clean energy incentives, we can 

9 expect that to look even better if we move 

10 forward swiftly with something like the Clean 

11 Power Plan with a really strong Federal 

12 Implementation Plan as well. 

13 You know, I recently learned that in 

14 Colorado we have -- we have the solar potential 

15 to power the state 362 times over. And I think 

16 that that’s just an amazing example of the things 

17 that are in place to push forward the Clean Power 

18 Plan -- the reasons that we should be moving 

19 forward with something that has really strong 

20 clean energy incentives. 

21 So that said, I want to once again thank 

22 you all for these hearings. I have been so 
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1 excited to hear hundreds of Coloradians from 

2 across the state come in to talk about why they 

3 want to see power plants cleaned up. And before 

4 I just wrap it up, I want to share -- we have 

5 coalition partners across the state in mountain 

6 towns that unfortunately weren’t able to make it 

7 today, conservation groups and solar energy 

8 businesses who are talking to the media and the 

9 reporters up there about why they want to see 

10 power plants cleaned up. So hopefully you can 

11 follow some of those news sources to see what 

12 those folks are saying about these hearings that 

13 they unfortunately weren’t able to make. But I 

14 know that we have health professionals and clean 

15 energy businesses, small businesses and all sorts 

16 of constituents across the State of Colorado who 

17 are excited to see this pushed forward swiftly. 

18 So thanks again for the opportunity to 

19 speak and I appreciate your time. 

20 COURT REPORTER: Can you spell your last 

21 name? 

22 MS. MCDEVITT: Yes. It’s McDevitt, M-C-
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1 D-E-V-I-T-T. Thank you. 

2 MS. LIVINGSTON: Good morning. My name 

3 is Ann Livingston and I am the program manager 

4 for state and local engagement at the Southwest 

5 Energy Efficiency Project. SWEEP is one of the 

6 six non-profit REEOs, or Regional Energy 

7 Efficiency Organizations, and we support 

8 efficiency efforts in Arizona, Colorado, New 

9 Mexico, Nevada, Utah and Wyoming. 

10 First of all, thank you for the 

11 opportunity to comment on the Proposed Federal 

12 plan and Model Trading Rules today. 

13 We agree that it makes sense to have a 

14 Federal plan framework to support compliance in 

15 the event that a state decides not to submit a 

16 plan or fails to submit an acceptable plan. 

17 However, we are concerned with the lack of 

18 support for energy efficiency within the Federal 

19 plan and, by extension, how that impacts FIP 

20 states under the Model Trading Rules. 

21 The proposed emissions rate-based federal 

22 plan does not include the ability to utilize 
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1 emissions rate credits or ERCs for energy 

2 efficiency measures or programs even with 

3 appropriate EM&V. This is in contrast to the 

4 Clean Power Plan final rule which allows ERCs for 

5 energy efficiency measures or programs, again 

6 with appropriate EM&V, of course, for states that 

7 submit an acceptable rate-based plan to the EPA. 

8 This lack of consistency should be corrected in 

9 our opinion. The EPA should allow states and 

10 utilities to obtain ERCs for energy efficiency 

11 measures and programs even if the state ends up 

12 with a rate-based compliance plan through the FIP 

13 process. 

14 Another concern, and not surprisingly, is 

15 that the proposed mass-based federal plan 

16 includes emissions allowance set-asides for 

17 renewable energy generators and for the CEIP, but 

18 not for energy efficiency in general. If the 

19 emissions allowance set-aside included in the 

20 mass-based federal plan could also support energy 

21 efficiency measures and programs on an ongoing 

22 basis, we feel that would be a better path. Each 
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1 FIP state could then be given the authority to 

2 distribute them to programs and/or measures that 

3 generate legitimate energy savings. 

4 Further, as a result of the federal plan 

5 framework as proposed, the Model Trading Rules do 

6 not allow ERC trading between states with a state 

7 developed rate-based plan and states that end up 

8 with a rate-based plan by way of the FIP process. 

9 This trading should be allowed, in our opinion, 

10 as long as the rate-based plans are equivalent. 

11 For example, EGUs of a particular type have the 

12 same emissions rate standard in the different 

13 states. Similarly, if a state has a mass-based 

14 FIP, they will be precluded from trading energy 

15 efficiency related allowances with other states. 

16 Again, we believe this trading should be allowed. 

17 Finally, the EPA has indicated that it 

18 will choose only one approach, either a rate19 based federal plan or a mass-based federal plan 

20 for the final FIP. In our view, it would be 

21 reasonable for the EPA to issue both rate-based 

22 and mass-based FIPs and then allow a state to 
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1 choose one or the other. Of course, if the state 

2 refuses to do so the EPA should make the 

3 designation. In this case we would recommend 

4 that EPA choose the mass-based approach for the 

5 state given that implementation of this approach 

6 is simpler and it will be easier to monitor and 

7 enforce. Similarly, if the EPA chooses to 

8 support only one compliance path in the final 

9 Federal plan rulemaking, we believe that path 

10 should be mass-based. 

11 Thank you for your time and 

12 consideration. And, hi, Laura. 

13 MS. NOONAN: Up next we have Catherine 

14 Collentine. 

15 MS. COLLENTINE: Good morning. 

16 MS. NOONAN: Good morning. And can you 

17 spell your name? 

18 MS. COLLENTINE: Yes. It’s Catherine, C19 A-T-H-E-R-I-N-E, C-O-L-L-E-N-T-I-N-E. 

20 So as you heard, my name is Catherine 

21 Collentine and I am with the Sierra Club here in 

22 Denver. I am following a couple of folks that I 
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1 think make some really sound points. And I am 

2 sure you guys have throughout the -- yesterday 

3 and today, heard a number of comments that really 

4 have laid out the different reasons why not only 

5 the Clean Power Plan is necessary for us here in 

6 Colorado, but is necessary across the country, 

7 and also how it should be implemented, and some 

8 differences in how it might be implemented right 

9 now and how it needs to be. So I just want to 

10 say thank you for giving us the opportunity to 

11 make these comments here in Colorado, making it 

12 easy for those of us in Denver to come in person. 

13 But I know that each and every one of us really 

14 does represent a whole slew of other folks who 

15 couldn’t make it in person but do support not 

16 only the Clean Power Plan, but how it’s 

17 implemented across Colorado and across other 

18 states. 

19 It’s a historic step. The Obama 

20 Administration has taken a couple recently to 

21 protect our air, our water, our climate and 

22 communities, but the Clean Power Plan really does 
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1 stand above a lot of those other ones. It’s an 

2 important thing for us to move forward and it’s 

3 important that we do it right. 

4 The Clean Power Plan has built upon a 

5 strong legal foundation that was laid out under 

6 the Clean Air Act. And I think that focusing on 

7 state specific control plans that tailor to local 

8 conditions is a very important piece of this. 

9 For too long fossil-fueled fired power plants 

10 have been a large emitter, a large source of 

11 greenhouse gases and a major contributor to 

12 climate change. And the carbon emissions from 

13 those power plants represent forty percent of the 

14 total CO2 emissions in the U.S. so we know that 

15 that’s a significant emitter. And you guys were 

16 right to directly target those emissions in these 

17 plans. 

18 The toxic air pollutants that cause 

19 health problems across Colorado cause health 

20 problems elsewhere, including asthma, upper 

21 respiratory and heart diseases. Things that we 

22 have seen in our friends, in our family and 
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1 communities across the country. And things that 

2 as an employee of an environmental organization, 

3 we hear stories about far too often. And we hear 

4 about how they impact day to day life. And 

5 that’s not something we can trade for energy when 

6 we have the technology that we just heard about 

7 from renewables and from other sources that would 

8 not cause these problems. It’s time to move in 

9 that direction. 

10 Additionally, the impacts of climate 

11 change are displacing families around the world. 

12 There are children who are suffering from poor 

13 air quality. And the only way that we can fix 

14 this is with strong and sweeping regulations like 

15 the Clean Power Plan with swift and effective 

16 implementation in states across the country. 

17 I moved out to Colorado to enjoy all the 

18 great outdoors has to offer, and I’m sure I’m not 

19 the first one to say that. I know that the Clean 

20 Power Plan is one of the necessary steps that 

21 need to be taken in order to be sure that I’m not 

22 the last person that gets to do that. We enjoy 
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1 hiking the scenic vistas that are not marred by 

2 smog or cause us to huff up the slope because of 

3 air pollution. I prefer it’s because I haven’t 

4 been outside in too many weeks and need to get 

5 back in shape. And skiing on snow that fell from 

6 the sky because we still have winters that we can 

7 count on to drop the snow that we have seen for 

8 centuries here in the Rocky Mountains. 

9 We need clean air and a stable climate in 

10 order to enjoy the recreation opportunities in 

11 the state. And the Clean Power Plan can help us 

12 move beyond dirty fossil-fuel energy sources to 

13 use the technology that we already have and that 

14 we have developed and that we will continue to 

15 develop and refine to progress towards cleaner 

16 energy more quickly. 

17 And clean energy is not just in my 

18 interests because I like to go skiing, or in our 

19 greater interest to slow climate change emissions 

20 and protect public health, but it also makes 

21 economic sense. Just this week a report came out 

22 showing that many of the large philanthropic 
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1 organizations, including the Gates Foundation and 

2 other organizations, would have been better off 

3 in the last three years alone investing in clean 

4 energy instead of dirty fossil fuels. And when I 

5 say better off, I mean by billions of dollars 

6 that could have gone towards their missions. That 

7 shows a significance that clean energy has, it’s 

8 a smart investment for our future and it’s smart 

9 for the Obama Administration, for the federal 

10 government, and for our taxpayer dollars to be 

11 spent moving us in that direction. The returns 

12 will come back over time. Clean energy also 

13 creates better paying and more sustainable jobs 

14 to support our growing economy. By EPA’s own 

15 estimates, the Clean Power Plan would deliver 

16 benefits of up to 93 billion dollars by 2030. 

17 Here in Colorado we know that our 

18 governor is up to the task of creating and 

19 implementing a state plan. And across the country 

20 states need to be held to that same standard. 

21 With the technical and policy guidance that EPA 

22 provides in order to ensure that a Federal plan 
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1 is strong, the EPA needs to ensure that carbon 

2 pollutions standards in a model plan approve 

3 achieve pollution reductions that actually go 

4 further than what the Clean Power Plan promises. 

5 Okay. I will wrap up there. And I just 

6 want to say thank you very much for allowing me 

7 to comment today. I really appreciate the 

8 opportunity. 

9 MS. NOONAN: Thank you so much. We are 

10 going to take a recess until 10:30 and then we 

11 will reconvene at that time. 

12 (Whereupon, at 10:16 a.m. a short recess 

13 was taken, to reconvene at 10:30 a.m.) 

14 10:30 a.m. 

15 MS. NOONAN: Thank you everyone. Let’s 

16 go ahead and continue on with the hearing. Up 

17 next we have Mike Cashin and Doug Fitzgerald. 

18 MR. CASHIN: Hello. 

19 MS. NOONAN: If you could spell your 

20 name? 

21 MR. CASHIN: Sure. My name is 

22 Michael Cashin, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, C-A-S-H-I-N. 
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1 Am I ready to go? 

2 MS. NOONAN: Yes. 

3 MR. CASHIN: Okay. Again, my name 

4 is Mike Cashin and I am the Environmental 

5 Policy Advisor for Minnesota Power ALLETE. 

6 And Minnesota Power is a small 

7 investor owned utility located -- 

8 headquartered in Duluth, Minnesota. We serve 

9 some of the largest industrial customers in 

10 the nation. The delivery of reliable, 

11 affordable and environmentally responsible 

12 energy services to our customers is one of 

13 our priorities. We also are concerned that 

14 because we serve an energy intensive 

15 industrial customer base that has to compete 

16 internationally, that we keep costs 

17 affordable. Especially when it comes to 

18 matters where international competitiveness 

19 are in play like it could be with the Clean 

20 Power Plan. 

21 Moving along, I know that Minnesota 

22 has been a progressive state regarding 
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1 environmental matters. We have been 

2 facilitating the 2007 Next Generation Energy 

3 Act that explicitly deals with greenhouse gas 

4 emissions. And our company, Minnesota Power, 

5 working with Integrated Resource Plan Process 

6 has our Energy Forward program that we 

7 created. And that is a process that will 

8 help us switch from 95 percent coal and five 

9 percent renewables, as we were in 2005, to a 

10 third of a third of a third mix of 

11 renewables, natural gas and coal. 

12 The timing for that goes on through 

13 the 2030 time frame, similar to the Clean 

14 Power Plan. Consequently, we are concerned -

15 - this is getting loud -- 

16 MS. NOONAN: It is. Try holding it 

17 a little further out. 

18 MR. CASHIN: Consequently -- is that 

19 better? 

20 MS. NOONAN: That’s better. Thank 

21 you. 

22 MR. CASHIN: Consequently, we are 
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1 concerned that the timing of our activities 

2 in Minnesota and the Clean Power Plan are not 

3 aligning. And we are concerned about the 

4 kind of impacts that that would have along 

5 with how we have made early deployments 

6 investments. We have been an “early action” 

7 state and we want to make sure that those 

8 things count. 

9 And consequently, we want to call 

10 our on environmental performance, economic 

11 impacts, operation of the whole cell 

12 electricity markets and electric grid 

13 performance and reliability are all factors 

14 that must be considered as part of the Clean 

15 Power Plan. It might seem obvious, but 

16 because of the way the Clean Power Plan is 

17 set up with its best system in emissions 

18 reductions approach, all of those areas are 

19 affected. We will be providing more detail 

20 and comments in the period as to why we are 

21 concerned that there are more impacts in 

22 those regimes than what EPA recognizes in 
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1 some of their modeling and VSR analysis. 

2 We are also very concerned about the 

3 local economic and employment impacts and 

4 think those need to be recognized. And I 

5 think that there tends to be an averaging 

6 “holistic” look at Clean Power Plan economic 

7 assessment that is insensitive to the jobs 

8 impacts for mining and the communities 

9 served. There’s tens of thousands of jobs in 

10 that area that are based on delivery of 

11 fossil-fuels, iron ore, wood products and 

12 other things that are going to be affected by 

13 the Clean Power Plan. 

14 Now, as far as -- oh, there we go, 

15 now it stopped. A rate versus mass decision 

16 should not be compelled by what goes on in 

17 other states of EPA regulatory choices. And 

18 I emphasize this because in a sense that is 

19 what EPA has set up in the protocol right now 

20 and that we are being encouraged to 

21 facilitate and coordinate with other states 

22 as can be done, but we are finding very much 
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1 so that our local energy infrastructure and 

2 jobs dynamics is unique and we need to have 

3 answers on what the other states would be 

4 doing in a way that they are not able to 

5 provide at this time. It puts us in an 

6 uncertainty period. And consequently while it 

7 might look better for us to perhaps consider 

8 a rate-based, others going with mass-based, 

9 that level of uncertainty at this stage of 

10 the game approaching the final rule 

11 implementation is a concern for us as it 

12 would affect customer cost. 

13 We note that we were an “early 

14 action” state and that we are very much 

15 wanting to have the measures that we did 

16 count as we go forward into the Clean Power 

17 Plan. We are concerned that the federal 

18 implementation plan doesn’t provide directly 

19 for energy efficiency. It’s kind of soft on 

20 how you would treat biomass. And yet we know 

21 that if there is a glitch in the state 

22 implementation plan acceptance, which we have 
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1 -- might have those components included, we 

2 would be fault of that. 

3 So with that said I just wanted to 

4 emphasize how it is important to address 

5 cross border issues. That we make sure that 

6 as we get involved, a third of our power in 

7 Minnesota from North Dakota and in turn a 

8 good portion goes from there, that the plans 

9 are reasonably coordinated. And we emphasize 

10 that historic emissions should be preserved 

11 as a basis for doing allowance allocations. 

12 Thank you. 

13 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

14 MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. My name 

15 is Doug Fitzgerald. D-O-U-G, F-I-T-Z-G-E-R16 A-L-D. 

17 And I am here from Congressman Scott 

18 Tipton’s Office. And he represents the 3rd 

19 Congressional District of Colorado which 

20 encompasses the western slope. San Luis 

21 Valley, the City of Alamosa is in that area 

22 and it goes over to the Grant Ranch which 
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1 includes Pueblo County. 

2 Good morning and thank you for the 

3 opportunity to provide some remarks on this 

4 issue on behalf of Congressman Tipton. 

5 The Environmental Protection Agency 

6 is seeking feedback on the proposed Federal 

7 plan to implement greenhouse gas emissions 

8 reductions as outlined in the Clean Power 

9 Plan which would be used by states that do 

10 not submit an EPA approved plan or which 

11 could be used as a template by the states to 

12 develop their plans. About half of the 

13 states have made it abundantly clear what 

14 they think of the proposal. They have filed 

15 suit to block it. 

16 I too, see serious problems with the 

17 EPA’s efforts. This so-called Clean Power 

18 Plan will achieve at best questionably 

19 positive results, is likely entirely 

20 unnecessary and will undoubtedly result in 

21 significant negative economic impacts. 

22 Discussions on climate change aside, 
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1 the Clean Power Plan suffers from one of the 

2 same fundamental flaws as previous efforts to 

3 cut greenhouse gas emissions. What benefit 

4 is it for the United States to self-impose 

5 emission reductions if other nations refuse 

6 to do so? Even among those who have 

7 committed to reduce emissions, many have 

8 essentially failed. The United States in 

9 contrast has succeeded, according to the 

10 EPA’s own data. U.S. Greenhouse gas emissions 

11 overall and measured per capita have 

12 exhibited a downward trend in the last 

13 decade, with the latter rate significantly 

14 below 1990 levels. 

15 And what will the uncertain benefits 

16 of the Clean Power Plan cost? EPA estimates 

17 the cost to be 5.5 to 8.8 billion annually. 

18 But economists have estimated the amount to 

19 be much higher, anywhere from 366 billion to 

20 479 billion from 2017 to 2031. 

21 And as the American economy 

22 struggles forward, one of the few bright 
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1 spots has been the low cost of energy, which 

2 has provided some welcome relief to American 

3 families, helps keep costs low for the 

4 commercial sector, and even prompted 

5 optimistic discussions about on-shoring jobs 

6 on sectors that have been in decline, 

7 specifically manufacturing. But just in 

8 time, here comes the Clean Power Plan to help 

9 squash that optimism. 

10 Unquestionably the energy sector 

11 that is squarely in the EPA’s sight is coal. 

12 Coal-fired generation accounts for almost 

13 forty percent of America’s energy portfolio. 

14 It is inexpensive and it is vital for the 

15 baseload power generation. But those 

16 clamoring for this rule, if successful in 

17 making coal an infeasible choice for power 

18 generation, don’t exactly have a plan for 

19 making up that gap. 

20 What about natural gas? The vast 

21 majority of our natural gas supply is a 

22 result of tapping into formations that 
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1 require fracking, which has been demonized at 

2 least to the extent of coal. How about 

3 nuclear generation? Same story. Wind and 

4 solar, turbines and solar require the use of 

5 minerals that must be mined. Ask our friends 

6 in the mining industry how easy it has been 

7 to permit hard rock mines in recent memory. 

8 Hydropower often runs into objections about 

9 ecological impacts. The list goes on. 

10 My point is not to identify the 

11 faults in the form of power generation, far 

12 from it. My bill, the planning for American 

13 Energy Act, recognizes the contributions of 

14 all of those energy sources and calls for an 

15 all above energy approach. I simply mean to 

16 point out the senseless nature of pursuing 

17 ambiguous goals by unilaterally imposing 

18 restrictions on our economy which will result 

19 in real economic hardships. Yes, power 

20 generation must be done in an environmentally 

21 sound way, but we have proven time and again 

22 through American ingenuity the ability to do 
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1 so without draconian mandates pouring out of 

2 Washington. 

3 Individual Americans stand to lose 

4 their jobs and their families will undergo 

5 real hardships. Actual communities across 

6 the nation that rely on these industries will 

7 be economically rocked. Consumers across the 

8 board will feel the pinch. And we will all 

9 watch as the opportunity to attract major 

10 industrial sectors back to our shores is 

11 squandered. 

12 These are not faceless statistics in 

13 a report. These are real people in 

14 communities across America and they are tired 

15 of being repeatedly beaten down by regulation 

16 after regulation screaming from Washington, 

17 issued by bureaucrats who either don’t seem 

18 to understand the harm they are causing or 

19 simply don’t care. 

20 Again, thank you for the opportunity 

21 to provide these remarks today. 

22 MS. NOONAN: Up next we have Jessica 
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1 Abell. 

2 MS. ABELL: Good morning. Reverend 

3 Jessica Abell, Colorado Interfaith Power and 

4 Light. Colorado Interfaith Power and Light 

5 is a movement of interfaith leaders, houses 

6 of worship and other spiritual communities 

7 and fellow seekers who claim -- the 

8 microphone is terrible. I can just project. 

9 MS. NOONAN: Even if you just leave 

10 it on the table and that might be -- we have 

11 no idea what is going on so -- 

12 MS. ABELL: I got you. Just slowly 

13 back away from it. All right. 

14 COURT REPORTER: Can I get your last 

15 name too? 

16 MS. ABELL: A-B-E-L-L, Abell. 

17 MS. NOONAN: We apologize. 

18 MS. ABELL: And fellow seekers who 

19 claim no affiliation. We seek the 

20 restoration of Creation and its proper use. 

21 We believe that the Divine, however one may 

22 experience that, is present in Creation and 
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1 compels us to act. 

2 As our very name implies, Colorado 

3 Interfaith Power and Light has special care 

4 for power, its generation and distribution, 

5 and for energy use. You, the U.S. 

6 Environmental Protection Agency, present for 

7 comment this plan that model rules for the 

8 Clean Power Plan. The Clean Power Plan will 

9 help curb dangerous carbon pollution from new 

10 and existing power plants for the first time 

11 in U.S. history. 

12 I am grateful for the opportunity to 

13 testify today on behalf of the Colorado 

14 Interfaith Power and Light, and with support 

15 for the CPP. I am a Baptist preacher, you 

16 see, and so I thank you for the pulpit. 

17 Carbon pollution is the main 

18 contributor to climate disruption. This 

19 fuels superstorms, floods, wildfires and 

20 record drought. Climate disruption and 

21 carbon pollution threaten our lives. They 

22 threaten our health, our families, and our 
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1 communities. 

2 More often than not, the power 

3 plants that spew this dangerous carbon 

4 pollution have a sharply skewed negative 

5 effect on low-income communities and 

6 communities of color already suffering from 

7 the worst effects of toxic pollution, 

8 including heart attacks, asthma, and 

9 premature death. 

10 This disproportional damage is part 

11 of the sin of environmental injustice and 

12 power plants have long been at the core of 

13 industrial pollution. I find it blasphemous 

14 to use Creation in the dirtiest ways possible 

15 to fuel our lives. That’s my language as a 

16 Christian minister, of course, but the 

17 principle is broad. 

18 Walk as lightly as possible on the 

19 Earth. Take everything out that you brought 

20 in. Clean up after yourselves and take 

21 responsibility for the cost of consumption. 

22 I think local projects like Xcel’s 
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1 Cherokee Generating Station, with its natural 

2 gas and steam generated power, and the 

3 growing presence of wind power, show that 

4 there is some willingness of the part of the 

5 fossil-fuel industry and the green industry 

6 to adapt together here in Colorado. This 

7 Federal Clean Power Plan sets decent metrics 

8 for curbing carbon pollution, and we at 

9 Colorado IPL heartily support it. We will 

10 encourage our federal representatives and 

11 senators to assent. We will encourage our 

12 local reactionaries to keep calm and step 

13 down and work together in collaboration to 

14 heal our Earth. 

15 I believe that local and regional 

16 work must be done alongside this new EPA 

17 Clean Power Plan. In fact, I think we in 

18 Colorado can do better, can do more to be 

19 stewards of Creation than is even presented 

20 here in the Clean Power Plan. But that is 

21 for us to do. For my part, I again thank you 

22 for the opportunity to speak today. Peace be 
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1 with you. 

2 MS. NOONAN: At this time, is there 

3 anyone in the audience who has not spoken 

4 already who would -- has not registered or 

5 would that would like to speak? 

6 (No audible response) 

7 MS. NOONAN: Okay. We are going to 

8 take a recess until 11:00 o’clock. Thank 

9 you. 

10 (Whereupon, at 10:46 a.m., a short recess 

11 was taken, to reconvene at 11:00 a.m.) 

12 11:00 a.m. 

13 MS. NOONAN: Folks, is there anyone 

14 in here who has not yet registered to speak 

15 who would like to? Because I think we are 

16 going to extend the break until 11:15 and 

17 then we will resume at that time. 

18 11:01 a.m. 

19 (Whereupon, at 11:01 a.m., a short recess was 

20 taken, to reconvene at 11:15 a.m.) 

21 11:15 a.m. 

22 MS. NOONAN: It is 11:15 and I would 
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1 like to call up Alec Herr and Mike Cashin for 

2 Tyler Hamman. Mr. Cashin, we understand that 

3 Mr. Hamman was unable to attend due to 

4 weather. 

5 MR. CASHIN: He had his flight 

6 cancelled. 

7 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Mr. Herr, you 

8 will have five minutes. 

9 MR. HERR: Okay. 

10 MS. NOONAN: And can you spell your 

11 first and last name please? 

12 MR. HERR: First name is A-L-E-C, 

13 last name is Herr, H-E-R-R. 

14 Good morning. My name is Alec Herr 

15 and I am a member of the Colorado Sierra Club 

16 and a graduate student at the University of 

17 Colorado at Boulder. Thank you for this 

18 opportunity to comment on the Clean Power 

19 Plan for which I am here to express my 

20 support. 

21 Fossil fuel power plants are the 

22 largest source of greenhouse gases and thus a 
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1 major contributor to climate change. Carbon 

2 emissions from power plants represent forty 

3 percent of the total CO2 emissions in the 

4 United States and also emit toxic air 

5 pollutants that contribute to respiratory and 

6 heart diseases as well as premature deaths. 

7 Climate change is also a human 

8 rights issue. Communities across the globe 

9 are dealing with the devastating impacts, 

10 from families displaced from their homes due 

11 to extreme weather events, to our children 

12 suffering from the health impacts of poor air 

13 quality. By regulating these plants, the 

14 Clean Power Plan will lead a significant 

15 climate and public health benefits for all. 

16 The EPA has estimated that by 2030, 

17 the Clean Power Plan will nationwide prevent 

18 150,000 asthma attacks and up to 6,600 

19 premature deaths annually. In addition, the 

20 Clean Power Plan provides great opportunities 

21 for economic growth and sustainable 

22 development. Investing in clean energy will 
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1 create jobs and fuel economic growth in our 

2 country. The EPA estimates the Clean Power 

3 Plan will deliver annual benefits of up 93 

4 billion by 2030. Furthermore, if we as a 

5 country could end our dependence on fossil6 fuels, we have the potential to add a million 

7 jobs nationwide in addition to having a 

8 planet that is livable for future 

9 generations. 

10 In order to ensure the draft model 

11 Federal plan is strong and just, the EPA must 

12 ensure that carbon pollution standards in the 

13 model Federal plan achieve the pollution 

14 reductions promised in the final Clean Power 

15 Plan or even further reductions. 

16 Second, ensure that states address 

17 potential carbon pollution from new power 

18 plants to achieve overall electric sector 

19 reductions in carbon pollution. Third, 

20 protect low-income consumers by maximizing 

21 utilities incentives to invest in energy 

22 efficiency which lowers household electric 
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1 bills. Furthermore, these low-income 

2 communities tend to be those who experience 

3 the worst effects of climate change and air 

4 pollution while they contributed the least to 

5 the problems. These dirty power plants tend 

6 to be in low-income communities which are 

7 populated by racial minorities. 

8 Fourth, ensure that the Model 

9 Federal plan protects and benefits minority, 

10 low income and indigenous communities that 

11 have long time borne the brunt of fossil-fuel 

12 pollution, and may be more likely to 

13 experience the impacts of climate change. 

14 And finally, resist giveaways of 

15 allowances to the most polluting sources. No 

16 amount of money or pollution emitted makes 

17 these companies above the law. 

18 By getting off of fossil fuels we 

19 have the potential to add more than a million 

20 jobs nationwide while preserving a planet 

21 that is livable for future generations. 

22 Thank you. 
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1 MR. CASHIN: Again, I’m reading for 

2 Tyler Hamman who is not able to be in 

3 attendance. 

4 My name is Tyler Hamman, Director of 

5 Government Affairs for the Lignite Energy 

6 Council. 

7 MS. NOONAN: Can you spell Hamman 

8 for us? 

9 MR. CASHIN: Tyler, T-Y-L-E-R, 

10 Hamman, H-A-M-M-A-N. 

11 The Lignite Energy Counsel is to 

12 preserve, protect and enhance the lignite 

13 coal industry, to allow for the continued use 

14 of our region’s vast lignite coal resources, 

15 over an 800 year supply, to generate low-cost 

16 electricity, as well as produce synthetic 

17 natural gas and other valuable byproducts. 

18 The LEC’s membership includes producers of 

19 lignite coal who have an ownership interest 

20 in and who mine lignite, users of lignite who 

21 operate lignite-fired electric generating 

22 plants and the nation’s only commercial-scale 
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1 “synfuels” plant that converts lignite into 

2 pipeline-quality natural gas, and suppliers 

3 of goods and services to the lignite coal 

4 industry. 

5 I want to begin my statement with an 

6 important date in the progression of EPA’s 

7 regulation of carbon dioxide from the power 

8 sector: December 22, 2010. This was the day 

9 that the 111th session of Congress adjourned. 

10 On that day, the U.S. Senate closed the door 

11 on further consideration of House-passed cap 

12 and trade legislation. The American Clean 

13 Energy and Security Act of 2009. Five years 

14 later, the EPA has proposed as part of its 

15 federal rule what Congress explicitly denied, 

16 a cap and trade scheme for the electric power 

17 sector. 

18 The industry appreciates that the 

19 EPA is trying to achieve meaningful 

20 reductions in carbon dioxide emissions from 

21 fossil fuel fired power plants. The State of 

22 North Dakota has pledged to work in good 
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1 faith to develop a state implementation plan 

2 too in an attempt to meet EPA’s state goal. 

3 However, the proposed federal rule gives us 

4 concern that the EPA has, whether 

5 intentionally or not, given North Dakota an 

6 impossible task that will result in EPA 

7 imposing all or part of the proposed Federal 

8 plan. 

9 Another concern is that EPA has 

10 touted state options and flexibility, yet the 

11 EPA’s Regulatory Impact Analysis repeatedly 

12 asserts that state programs that “adhere to 

13 the model rule provisions specified in the 

14 rule making would be presumptively 

15 approvable.” Or in other words, programs 

16 that do not adhere to the model rule language 

17 would not be approvable and may become 

18 subject to the federal program. Page 5 of 

19 the RIA even goes further in specifying that 

20 “there are stand-alone provisions of the 

21 model trading rules... that would be approvable 

22 even if a state adopted an approach that 
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1 differs from the federal plan.” 

2 The Model Federal plan leaves many 

3 significant questions unanswered, most 

4 importantly the cost and availability of 

5 allowances under the federal trade scheme. 

6 The EPA’s RIA estimates compliance costs 

7 under the model plan to be anywhere from 5.1 

8 to 8.4 billion in 2030. The North Dakota 

9 Public Service Commission has estimated that 

10 buying allowances alone to comply with the 

11 Clean Power Plan could cost 370 million 

12 annually for the State of North Dakota. 

13 Further analysis and explanation 

14 from the EPA is needed regarding the 

15 availability of allowances and the 

16 illiquidity of the allowance market under the 

17 Model Federal plan. The EPA also needs to 

18 clearly explain how the Model Federal plan 

19 will ultimately account for the remaining 

20 useful life of power plants. 

21 In light of these concerns, the LEC 

22 respectively requests that the proposed 
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1 Federal plan be withdrawn and that EPA 

2 develop state FIPs focused on achievable 

3 state goals consistent with the Clean Air 

4 Act. The Lignite Energy Council will 

5 continue to work collaboratively with EPA and 

6 the State of North Dakota on developing a 

7 responsible state plan to reduce carbon 

8 dioxide emissions. 

9 Finally, the industry appreciates 

10 the efforts of the EPA has made to date, most 

11 recently by coming to North Dakota last week 

12 to discuss the Clean Power Plan, and hope 

13 that similar openness and communication can 

14 continue. Thank you for the opportunity to 

15 provide these comments. 

16 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. Up 

17 next we have Jack Ihle, please. 

18 MR. IHLE: Good morning. 

19 MS. NOONAN: Good morning. Could 

20 you spell your full name? 

21 MR. IHLE: Yes. It’s Jack, J-A-C-K, 

22 Ihle, spelled I-H-L-E. 
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1 Okay. My name is Jack Ihle, I’m a 

2 director with Environmental Policy for Xcel 

3 Energy. We appreciate the chance to give our 

4 views to EPA on this. We plan to engage 

5 constructively with EPA on this rule and with 

6 our states on development of state plans. We 

7 will file comments on the proposed Federal 

8 plan, the subject of today. Those comments 

9 will follow loosely -- or will significantly 

10 elaborate on what I will briefly summarize 

11 here, issues in the Clean Power Plan Proposed 

12 Federal plan. 

13 Issue number one, state discretion. 

14 EPA should clarify that the states retain 

15 discretion to pick their own allocation 

16 approaches regardless of the approach set 

17 forth in EPA’s proposed federal plan and 

18 model rules. The Clean Power Plan’s success 

19 depends on state flexibility and discretion. 

20 Although state discretion is important in all 

21 aspects of the state plans, it is critical in 

22 the allocation of allowances. 
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1 Point two, no allowance auctions. 

2 EPA should maintain its policy choice to 

3 allocate allowances freely, rather than 

4 auction them, in federal plan and model 

5 rules. Free allocation reduces the cost of 

6 the program for utility customers, avoids 

7 problems with redistribution of auction 

8 proceeds and is consistent with the laws in 

9 most states, which would not authorize an 

10 allowance auction. 

11 Point three, allowance takings. The 

12 final federal plan should not take allowances 

13 from utility customers after a coal plant 

14 retirement. Under mass-based program 

15 proposed in the Federal plan, the owner of a 

16 retiring power plant would receive the 

17 allowances freed up by the retirement of a 

18 unit, but only for two to three years 

19 potentially after the retirement date. This 

20 policy design is not required by the Clean 

21 Air Act. It creates a disincentive to retire 

22 coal plants, it punishes our customers for 
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1 doing the right thing and unnecessarily 

2 raises their costs. 

3 Point four, leakage. In the Federal 

4 plan, EPA has proposed to address the 

5 possibility of emissions leakage by 

6 reallocating a portion of each state’s 

7 emission allowances to existing combined 

8 cycle plants and to renewable energy. This 

9 proposal has several flaws. EPA’s own 

10 analysis shows that in many states that Xcel 

11 Energy serves, the Clean Power Plan would not 

12 result in leakage. Also, leakages should not 

13 apply to increased emissions resulting from 

14 increased electric demand or new gas fired 

15 plants built to replace retiring low emitting 

16 generating plants, such as nuclear, hydro or 

17 renewable facilities. 

18 In summary, EPA should narrowly 

19 define leakage and should not apply leakage 

20 requirements to low growth or new generation 

21 that is replacing nuclear, hydro or 

22 renewables. 
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1 Point five, Clean Energy Incentive 

2 Program. The Clean Energy Incentive Program 

3 included in the final rule and in the Federal 

4 plan is a welcome effort to incentivize 

5 actions prior to 2020. EPA should provide 

6 credit under this program to any renewable 

7 project or low-income energy efficiency 

8 measure placed in service after promulgation 

9 of the Final Clean Power Plan on October 

10 23rd, 2015. EPA should not stall renewable 

11 and efficiency deployment by withholding 

12 credits of projects until after states submit 

13 the plans. 

14 Point six, reliability safety valve. 

15 EPA should allow states to reuse the 

16 reliability safety valve option regardless of 

17 the type of program the state chooses to 

18 implement the Clean Power Plan. 

19 Point seven, measurement of 

20 verification. Under rate-based programs 

21 especially, EPA should defer to the state 

22 PUCs to handle measurement and verification 
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1 of renewable energy and especially energy 

2 efficiency. 

3 Point eight, repowering early 

4 renewables. Again, under a rate-based 

5 program we suggest that EPA allow utilities 

6 and states the full credit for repowering 

7 renewables that are brought online in 2012 or 

8 earlier when those projects were 

9 significantly repowered in the form of 

10 granting those projects credits in the form 

11 of ERCs for a rate-based approach. 

12 We will comment more extensively on 

13 these in written comments. I thank you for 

14 your time. 

15 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

16 MS. HIGHT: So I just wanted to 

17 point out to folks today that we have some 

18 upcoming stake holder calls on the Clean 

19 Energy Incentive Program to gather feedback 

20 on the design implementation details of that 

21 program. The next one of those calls is 

22 happening on November 23rd in the evening to 
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1 make it convenient for folks who have a full 

2 work day. And then we have two other calls, 

3 one on November 30th and one on December 1st. 

4 And the details for all of those, the call in 

5 information are on our website. 

6 MS. NOONAN: With that, we are going 

7 to take a recess until 11:45 and we will see 

8 if there are folks who have registered at 

9 that time. And we will plan on taking a 

10 lunch from noon to 1:00. 

11 (Whereupon, at 11:29 a.m., a short recess was 

12 taken, to reconvene at 11:45 a.m.) 

13 11:45 a.m. 

14 MS. NOONAN: Thank you all for 

15 bearing with us during this recess. We do 

16 not at this time have any speakers who are 

17 ready to speak. So I think what we are going 

18 to do is go ahead and go to lunch early and 

19 we will reconvene at 1:00 o’clock. And we 

20 will be here until 5:00 today. So, thank 

21 you. 

22 We have one speaker so we will 
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1 reconvene. Will Jenny Willford please come 

2 forward for her testimony. You are right 

3 there and you have five minutes. The light 

4 will turn yellow when you have one minute 

5 left. 

6 MS. WILLFORD: Okay. 

7 MS. NOONAN: And if you could spell 

8 your first and last name. 

9 MS. WILFORD: Okay, sure. So my 

10 first name is Jenny, J-E-N-N-Y, last name 

11 Willford, W-I-L-L-F-O-R-D. 

12 First of all, I want to say thank 

13 you so much for the opportunity to be a part 

14 of this. I really appreciate you being here 

15 and taking testimony. 

16 I am Jenny Willford. I am a new 

17 mom. My husband and I are thrilled to raise 

18 our son right here in Colorado. We both come 

19 from families who are passionate about the 

20 outdoors. Our family trips have always 

21 involved hunting and fishing, fly fishing for 

22 me and my husband more lure fishing. He is 
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1 terrible, don’t tell him I said that. And 

2 that’s really one of our most favorite ways 

3 to spend time with our family is outdoors. 

4 And I want to be able to pass on my love of 

5 the outdoors to my son. Like most parents, I 

6 want clean, healthy air for our kids to 

7 prevent asthma and other childhood 

8 respiratory illnesses. Implementing the EPA 

9 Clean Power Plan to cut air pollution from 

10 power plants with outdated equipment is 

11 critical to maintaining the health of our 

12 families. 

13 My grandfather is a World War II 

14 veteran and he lives just a couple of streets 

15 down from me. And I think about his health 

16 and about his future all of the time. And I 

17 want to be able to continue to enjoy family 

18 vacations with him to come. And I want to 

19 feel confident that the air in our 

20 neighborhood in Northglenn, just a few miles 

21 up from here, is safe to breathe. 

22 The facts are clear, the plan will 
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1 make kids and grandparents healthier. And I 

2 am very much in favor of the Clean Power Plan 

3 for clean air for kids and our future. 

4 Thank you so much. 

5 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Is there 

6 anyone else who would like to testify at this 

7 time? 

8 (No audible response) 

9 MS. NOONAN: I think we are just 

10 going to wait until noon in case anyone 

11 comes. 

12 We are adjourning until 1:00 

13 o’clock. 

14 (Whereupon, at 12:02 p.m., a luncheon recess 

15 was taken, to reconvene at 1:00 p.m.) 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S 

2 AFTERNOON SESSION 

3 1:00 p.m. 

4 MS. NOONAN: It looks like it is 

5 1:00 o’clock and we will reconvene the 

6 hearing. So our first two speakers are Emma 

7 Pinter and Angelique Kenison. 

8 Wait, I need to read the opening 

9 statement. Come up to the table, please. 

10 Let me -- I’m going to do an abbreviated 

11 version. 

12 Good afternoon. My name is Jenny Noonan 

13 and I am the chair of today’s public hearing. 

14 Thank you for joining today. I am joined by 

15 Scott Jackson and Nick Swanson. And I will do 

16 just a couple -- just a little bit of a brief 

17 summary of why we are here today. Fossil-fueled 

18 fire power plants are the largest source of U.S. 

19 carbon dioxide emissions, or carbon pollution, 

20 accounting for 31 percent of U.S. total 

21 greenhouse gas emissions. 

22 We are here today to listen to your 
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1 comments on EPA’s proposed Federal plan and model 

2 rule to implement the Clean Power Plan for 

3 existing power plants. This proposal includes 

4 four discrete proposed actions. One, a rate5 based Federal plan for each state with an 

6 affected electric generating unit, or EGU. 

7 Two, a mass-based Federal plan for each 

8 state with affected EGUs. 

9 Three, a rate-based model trading rule 

10 for potential use by any state. 

11 And four, a mass-based model trading rule 

12 for potential use by any state. 

13 The proposed Federal plan will achieve 

14 the same level of emission performance as 

15 required of state plans under the Clean Power 

16 Plan. The proposal also includes model rules for 

17 those states that are developing their own plans. 

18 In addition, the proposal contains a finding that 

19 it is necessary or appropriate to implement a 

20 section 111(d) federal plan for the affected 

21 electric generating units located in Indian 

22 country. CO2 emission performance rates for 
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1 these facilities were finalized in the final 

2 Clean Power Plan. 

3 And information on how the EPA will reach 

4 out to communities throughout the comment period 

5 and an overview of the actions that the EPA is 

6 taking to ensure that vulnerable communities are 

7 not being disproportionately impacted by this 

8 rulemaking. 

9 If you would like more details on the 

10 proposed rule there are fact sheets out in the 

11 hallway and at the registration desk. 

12 And just a few housekeeping items that 

13 will help things run smoothly. 

14 First, make sure you have checked in at 

15 the registration desk even if you are not 

16 planning to speak today. And if you signed up to 

17 speak online or by phone but haven’t yet told us 

18 that you’re here, please step out to the 

19 registration desk and let the EPA staff know that 

20 you have arrived. 

21 I will call the speakers up in pairs. 

22 When your name is called, please come to the 
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1 speakers’ table at the front of the room. When I 

2 call on you to speak, please state your name and 

3 spell it for the court reporter. Your comments 

4 will be transcribed and included in the record of 

5 comments on the proposed rule. 

6 Each speaker will have five minutes to 

7 give comments. We have a timer light to help you 

8 know how much time you have left to speak. When 

9 the light turns from green to yellow, that means 

10 you have one minute remaining. When it turns to 

11 red, that’s a signal that you are at five minutes 

12 and it’s time to stop. When you are finished 

13 speaking, please remain at the table until the 

14 person next to you has completed his or her 

15 testimony. 

16 We are here to listen to you today; 

17 however, a panel member may ask a question to 

18 clarify your comments. If you have brought a 

19 written copy of your testimony, please give it to 

20 us or the court reporter or the staff at the 

21 registration desk. We will put any written 

22 comments into the official docket for the 
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1 proposed rule. 

2 We also have comment cards available at the 

3 registration desk outside. And if you want to 

4 comment in writing later, you can find 

5 information about how to do that at the 

6 registration desk. And comments must be received 

7 by January 21, 2016. 

8 Let me assure you that EPA gives just as 

9 much consideration to comments submitted in 

10 writing as we do to comments we receive at public 

11 hearings like this one. So if you have more 

12 comments that you would like to provide to the 

13 EPA, please submit them by the comment period 

14 deadline. Your comments will be reviewed. 

15 If you have any questions during the day, 

16 please see the staff at the registration desk and 

17 someone will assist you. 

18 And thank you again for taking the time 

19 to come today and we look forward to hearing your 

20 comments. Let’s get started. 

21 MS. PINTER: So that’s me? 

22 MS. NOONAN: Please start with spelling 
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1 your name. 

2 MS. PINTER: Hi, my name is Emma Pinter 

3 and my last name is P-I-N-T-E-R. 

4 I am the head mom with Colorado Moms Know 

5 Best. And I am proud to represent the group 

6 Colorado Moms Know Best. We have moms and 

7 families from all across the State of Colorado 

8 supporting the Clean Power Plan today. 

9 Moms believe that we have a moral 

10 obligation to protect our children’s health and 

11 future. Ensuring that they have clean air is one 

12 of those very basics. 

13 Cleaning up air pollution from power 

14 plants will decrease illnesses like childhood 

15 asthma that not only slow our kids down but cost 

16 us billions of dollars in pediatric healthcare 

17 and missed parent work days each year. 

18 The great news is that Colorado is in 

19 great shape to meet the standards since we are 

20 already on track to reduce carbon pollution by 75 

21 percent with the policies that we have in place. 

22 Coloradans value clean air, healthy kids and our 
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1 outdoor lifestyle. So embracing the Clean Power 

2 Plan is really a no brainer for us. 

3 So thank you. 

4 MS. KENISON: My name is Angelique 

5 Kenison. That’s A-N-G-E-L-I-Q-U-E, Kenison K-E6 N-I-S-O-N. I am an environmental chemist for an 

7 environmental proficiency testing company. And 

8 so this is a topic that I care a lot about. 

9 As the mother of two active children who 

10 love to run and play outside, I’m delighted that 

11 the Clean Power Plan rules will reduce air 

12 pollution from dirty power plants in the coming 

13 years. 

14 My husband and I spend a lot of time with 

15 our children playing -- from playing in the back 

16 yard to launching model rockets in nearby fields, 

17 as well as hiking, biking, gardening -- anything 

18 outside. 

19 I’m excited for the Clean Power Plan 

20 because all of these activities are much better 

21 with clean air. Breathing dirty air increases 

22 asthma attacks, respiratory diseases, 
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1 hospitalizations, and even heart attacks. It’s 

2 especially bad for children whose lungs are still 

3 developing, as well as for their grandparents who 

4 are more vulnerable to bronchitis, pneumonia and 

5 other illnesses. 

6 Both my husband and I work in the 

7 sciences and as such knows that innovation leads 

8 to new jobs. The Clean Power Plan will preserve 

9 our clean air and way of life that is important 

10 to attracting new businesses and workers to 

11 Colorado, as well as grow the State’s clean tech 

12 economy. It’s good for kids and for comers, the 

13 Clean Power Plan is a win/win all the way around. 

14 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both. 

15 MS. KENISON: Thank you. 

16 MS. NOONAN: Is there anyone here who has 

17 not already spoken who would like to at this 

18 time? 

19 MR. ETTER: I just wrote down a few notes 

20 of things I would like to say if that’s all 

21 right. 

22 MS. NOONAN: Yes. Just please start with 
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1 your name and how you spell it. 

2 MR. ETTER: Okay. So my name is Art 

3 Etter. That’s A-R-T, last name is E-T-T-E-R. 

4 And thank you for giving me the 

5 opportunity. But I am here to voice my opposition 

6 to the Clean Power Plan. I work as a full-time 

7 coal miner and part-time farmer on our farm in 

8 the North Fork Valley. North Fork Valley is 

9 located in the Western Slope. It’s a beautiful 

10 place to live, rural community in Delta County. 

11 Historically the main economic drivers in 

12 our valley have been agriculture and coal mining. 

13 The coal mined in the valley, it’s unique to the 

14 market place. It’s very high in BTU, very low in 

15 sulfur. 

16 In 2013, the positive impact of the three 

17 mines was significant. There was well over a 

18 hundred million dollars paid in salaries and 

19 benefits to mine employees. It doesn’t include 

20 the tens of millions of dollars paid in royalties 

21 and taxes to fund local government and our local 

22 school districts. It also doesn’t include the 
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1 tens of millions of dollars that has been paid to 

2 contractors, consultants, material suppliers and 

3 venders. 

4 The economic impact in the valley is 

5 substantial with the three mines. Since 2010, 

6 the mines have seen coal prices plunge as a 

7 result of unprecedently low natural gas prices, 

8 increased power plant regulation and the long 

9 term risk associated with the implementation of 

10 the carbon pollution plan. The mines in the 

11 North Fork Valley have an excellent environmental 

12 compliance track record, very good working 

13 relationships with regulators and local 

14 environmental groups. 

15 The environmental impact associated with 

16 the North Fork mines is minimal while in 

17 operation and negligible once reclaimed. Locals 

18 often mountain bike, hike, cross country ski, 

19 hunt and fish on mine property boundary and 

20 within lease boundaries without even realizing 

21 the extensive mining that’s underground below 

22 them, especially once reclaimed. 
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1 My concerns with the Clean Power Plan go 

2 beyond the loss of thousands of well-paying jobs 

3 in our small community. I’m concerned with the 

4 cost of the plan in the form of increased energy 

5 costs for fixed income families, of which there 

6 are many in the North Fork Valley. If the Clean 

7 Power Plan is implemented in its current form, 

8 energy costs for Coloradans are expected to 

9 increase by twenty-five to thirty-five percent. 

10 And this number is a conservative estimate based 

11 on current relatively inexpensive cost of natural 

12 gas. 

13 The global carbon reductions are marginal 

14 at best. To put this in perspective, once the 

15 plan is fully implemented, the total annual 

16 carbon reduced in the U.S. will be equivalent to 

17 the total carbon emitted in China in one month. 

18 The risk this plan creates in our local, 

19 rural and national economy is far too great when 

20 considering the national reductions in global 

21 carbon. 

22 Thank you. 
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1 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

2 Okay. Is there anyone else who would 

3 like to speak? 

4 (No audible response) 

5 MS. NOONAN: I think we will be in recess 

6 until 1:35. 

7 (Whereupon, a recess was taken at 1:12 p.m.) 

8 (Back on the record at 2:00 p.m.) 

9 MS. NOONAN: Okay. By the clock on the 

10 wall we have 2:00 o’clock and we are reconvening 

11 the public hearing. And I would like to call up 

12 Jeff Hart to speak. So you will have five 

13 minutes to speak. And there is a timer here. 

14 MR. HART: Okay. 

15 MS. NOONAN: I’m sorry, we don’t have any 

16 amplification, no microphone. 

17 MR. HART: Okay. 

18 MS. NOONAN: We tried but it just didn’t 

19 work out today. Could you start out by spelling 

20 your first and last name? 

21 MR. HART: My name is Jeff Hart, H-A-R-T, 

22 J-E-F-F. 
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1 MS. NOONAN: Whenever you are ready. 

2 MR. HART: Okay, all right. Thank you 

3 for the opportunity to testify today. Again, my 

4 name is Jeff Hart. And I have been studying 

5 environmental issues for over twenty-five years, 

6 first as a senior program analyst with the GAO, 

7 the U.S. Government Accountability Office here in 

8 Denver, as well as Frankfurt, Germany and Dallas, 

9 Texas. Second, as manager of EPA’s Denver office 

10 of inspector general right here in this building. 

11 In that role, I lead the OIGs first ever studies 

12 of climate change activities, the first and 

13 second of those studies ever conducted by the 

14 OIG. There was a report in 2007 that showed that 

15 EPA’s voluntary programs lacked internal policy 

16 controls or systematic management. That report 

17 number is 2007-P-00041 and ’09 report showed that 

18 EPA had no comprehensive plans or policies on 

19 climate change or climate change related 

20 research. 

21 Thirdly, as part of those twenty-five 

22 years, I more recently have been -- since 2007 
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1 been a climate leader and presenter with the 

2 climate reality project. And was one of the -- 

3 as part of that role, one of the first people 

4 invited to be personally trained by former Vice 

5 President Al Gore to go out and present his slide 

6 show made famous, An Inconvenient Truth. 

7 So the first thing I want to say is as 

8 far as Colorado, more of my recent research, it 

9 showed that Colorado is clearly up for this 

10 challenge. Colorado has been a leader in 

11 reducing power plant emissions for a long time 

12 now already and can easily maintain an 

13 affordable, reliable, cost-effective electric 

14 system. So I don’t think that is any concern 

15 here despite the fact that our State Attorney 

16 General has filed suit against the EPA, much to 

17 my dismay and many others’ dismay given that our 

18 chief executive, Governor John Hickenlooper, has 

19 come out strongly in favor of the Clean Power 

20 Plan and Colorado’s ability to implement -- 

21 successfully implement that plan and meet those 

22 goals. 
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1 So the scientific evidence is clear, the 

2 Earth’s climate is warming. There’s been 

3 obviously multiple independent measurements to 

4 confirm this widespread warming, particularly in 

5 the Western United States, including here in 

6 Colorado. In fact, climate models project 

7 Colorado will warm by 2.5 degrees by 2025 and 4 

8 degrees by 2050 relative to the 1950 to 1999 

9 baseline. Projections also suggest that the 

10 typical monthly summer temperatures will be as 

11 warm or warmer than the hottest ten percent of 

12 summers that occurred between 1950 and 1999. 

13 Research also shows that climate change 

14 will negatively affect Colorado’s use and ability 

15 to properly distribute water in our state. Water 

16 managers and planners here in Colorado currently 

17 face specific challenges already that may be 

18 further exacerbated by projected climate change 

19 as I have just outlined. Projections also show a 

20 precipitous decline in snow pack. Furthermore, 

21 the spring -- the onset of stream flows from 

22 melting snow in Colorado has shifted earlier, by 
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1 two weeks, which obviously shortens our popular 

2 ski season, costing Colorado jobs and other ski3 related revenues, damaging our economy. 

4 Projections also suggest that declining 

5 runoff for most of Colorado’s river basins by up 

6 to forty-five percent. Warming temperatures may 

7 have also increased the severity of droughts and 

8 floods and exacerbated these impacts. 

9 Also overall, as I have already eluded 

10 to, is increased water demand, water quality 

11 being sensitive to both increased water 

12 temperatures and changes and patterns of 

13 precipitation may affect sediment load and the 

14 related water pollution negatively impacting 

15 human health. 

16 Another example with regard to water 

17 stress, trees may be more vulnerable to pests, 

18 like the pine beetle that has devastated 

19 Colorado’s forests, affecting recreational 

20 opportunities and further negatively impacting 

21 our economy. 

22 As far as other water and snow-based 
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1 recreation changes and reservoir storage, 

2 negatively affect lake and river recreational 

3 activities. Changes in stream flow intensity and 

4 timing will continue to negatively affect rafting 

5 and trout fishing. Changes in the character and 

6 timing of snow pack and the ratio of snowfall to 

7 rainfall will continue to influence winter 

8 recreational activities and related tourism. 

9 For these reasons and more I strongly 

10 support EPA’s Clean Power Plan and I’m happy to 

11 answer any questions. 

12 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. I’m 

13 pretty sure I know the answer to this, but if 

14 there is anyone here who has not yet testified 

15 who would like to -- we will wait just a few more 

16 minutes. 

17 Okay. To give you the summary, you will 

18 have five minutes to speak. When this light 

19 turns yellow you will have one minute left. If 

20 you could start out by spelling your first and 

21 last name. 

22 MR. STANLEY: Absolutely. Hi, I am Dr. 
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1 Christopher Stanley, C-H-R-I-S-T-O-P-H-E-R, last 

2 name is Stanley, S-T-A-N-L-E-Y. 

3 Good afternoon. I am again Dr. Chris 

4 Stanley. I’m the vice president for Population 

5 Health and the chief medical officer of our own 

6 employee benefit plan at Catholic Health 

7 Initiatives. It’s a parent organization of the 

8 Centura Health System. It’s headquartered here in 

9 Colorado. 

10 I live in Denver, I’m a pediatrician. 

11 I’m the Board President of the American Lung 

12 Association in Colorado. And I’m the proud 

13 parent of a beautiful and healthy daughter. 

14 I’m here today to testify in support of 

15 strong federal and model plans that will help 

16 drive a shift to cleaner energy sources, address 

17 climate change and reduce as much pollution as 

18 possible to protect public health. As a health 

19 professional and as a parent, I know that climate 

20 change can harm health through degraded air 

21 quality, wildfires, drought, heat waves and more. 

22 I also know that these impacts worsen the burden 
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1 that many in Colorado already suffer with because 

2 of power plant pollution. 

3 We, at the American Lung Association 

4 support the Clean Power Plan to reduce carbon and 

5 other air pollutants that cause asthma attacks, 

6 heart attacks and premature deaths. And I want 

7 to make sure we achieve the EPA’s estimated 

8 health benefits of the Clean Power Plan, 

9 including preventing up to 3,600 premature deaths 

10 by 2030, preventing 90,000 asthma attacks and 

11 avoiding 300,000 days missed from work and school 

12 each year. 

13 These health benefits can only be 

14 achieved if states develop effective plans to 

15 meet the requirements set out by the EPA in the 

16 Clean Power Plan. And for those states who 

17 refuse to comply, it is critical that the EPA 

18 have a way to ensure emission reductions by 

19 taking action at the federal level. 

20 We support the EPA’s efforts to help the 

21 states develop and adopt effective plans to 

22 reduce their carbon emissions. Having model 
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1 plans to use will help the state focus their time 

2 and effort in choosing the steps that work best 

3 for them. 

4 The American Lung Association in Colorado 

5 broadly supports the Clean Power Plan, but we 

6 also have some suggestions for improvement. The 

7 EPA needs to do more in the model rule to ensure 

8 that low-income communities don’t continue to 

9 bear the oversized burden of pollution under this 

10 plan. 

11 In particular, low-income communities 

12 have suffered the consequences of pollution 

13 exposure from coal-fired power plants for far too 

14 long. They have lived near these plants where 

15 they breathe the worst of the pollution, 

16 including toxic emissions like arsenic, lead and 

17 carcinogens like benzene, spewed uncontrolled for 

18 far too long. They are suffering more from 

19 changes that climate change brings. Research 

20 supports that air pollution disproportionally 

21 harms poorer communities as seen by increased 

22 incidence of disease like asthma. 
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1 EPA’s analysis, as well as analysis by 

2 Harvard University and others, show that steps to 

3 reduce carbon emissions will also have co4 benefits that reduce other harmful emissions from 

5 these plants, like ozone precursors and sulfur 

6 oxides. 

7 Cleaning up these plants is essential, 

8 but we remain concerned that some states will 

9 adopt a plan that does not recognize the 

10 continued disproportionate burden and fails to 

11 reduce emissions from all sources. Each plan -- 

12 excuse me, each state plan should take leadership 

13 to make sure that their plans do not continue to 

14 disproportionately burden those who live near the 

15 plants. 

16 Thank you for allowing me to testify 

17 today. 

18 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

19 MR. STANLEY: Thank you. 

20 MS. NOONAN: All right. Having no other 

21 registered speakers at this time, we are going to 

22 take a recess until a quarter of three. 
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1 (Whereupon, at 2:13 p.m. a short recess 

2 was taken, to reconvene at 2:45 p.m. 

3 2:47 p.m. 

4 MS. NOONAN: There are no speakers 

5 registered to speak at this time. So we are 

6 going to just hang out here until -- and be 

7 available should people -- when people arrive. 

8 (Whereupon, at 2:47 p.m. a short recess 

9 was taken.) 

10 3:27 p.m. 

11 MS. NOONAN: We are reconvening the 

12 public hearing. And Mr. Brad Cofield, would you 

13 please come up. Have a seat. You will have five 

14 minutes to speak. You have a timer and when it 

15 gets to the yellow light, it means you have one 

16 minute left. 

17 MR. COFIELD: Okay. 

18 MS. NOONAN: Five minutes -- that’s 

19 pretty much it. 

20 MR. COFIELD: Great. Thank you very 

21 much. I appreciate the opportunity to be here 

22 today. My name is Brad Cofield and I work for 
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1 Wagner Equipment Company. We are a Caterpillar 

2 equipment dealer in Colorado, New Mexico and far 

3 west Texas. We have a total of 1600 employees, 

4 and 120 of those employees in Colorado facilities 

5 that are directly -- directly support our 

6 Colorado mining communities, communities like 

7 Craig, Hayden, Paonia and Grand Junction. 

8 Over the last fifteen years we have 

9 worked with our partner, Caterpillar, and our 

10 customers to implement the EPA’s tiered emission 

11 programs for on and off highway emissions. Those 

12 are on highway vehicles, off-road machinery. 

13 These emission improvements have been 

14 accomplished through cooperation between 

15 government and industry. And the end results 

16 were machines and vehicles that emit a fraction 

17 of the particulate and Nox levels that they 

18 emitted fifteen years ago. 

19 These regulations didn’t single out 

20 particular fuel sources for extinction, rather 

21 they set realistic goals and industry worked to 

22 meet them over a period of time that allowed for 
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1 new technology to be developed and cost-effective 

2 solutions implemented. 

3 The Clean Power Plan, in contrast, is 

4 aimed at eliminating coal with little regard to 

5 the economic impact of this action. The Obama 

6 Administration promises the CPP will have a 

7 widespread effect on the “increasingly extreme 

8 storms and weather conditions.” But by EPA’s own 

9 calculations, CPP will only avert future 

10 temperature increases by less than two one11 hundredths of a degree Celsius by the year 2100. 

12 It is estimated that wholesale energy costs will 

13 increase by 214 billion dollars between 2022 and 

14 2030. Is this expense worth such a small change 

15 in our environment? 

16 In addition, these measures would have 

17 huge impacts to the economies of communities like 

18 Paonia, Colorado, Craig, Colorado and Hayden 

19 Colorado and cost Colorado thousands of jobs. Not 

20 just mining jobs, not just the power plant jobs, 

21 but all of the industry and employees that 

22 support those industries. These same measures 
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1 are estimated to increase Coloradan’s electrical 

2 rates by 19 percent by 2030. So I urge you not 

3 to waste our money for such a low environmental 

4 return. 

5 I appreciate your time. Thank you very 

6 much. 

7 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

8 COURT REPORTER: How do you spell your 

9 last name? 

10 MR. COFIELD: C-O-F-I-E-L-D. 

11 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. 

12 MR. COFIELD: Thank you. 

13 MS. NOONAN: We will stand by for other 

14 speakers as they may be arriving this afternoon. 

15 Again, the hearing will close at 5:00. 

16 I’d like to call Ronald Larsen and Soren 

17 Hermanson, come to the table. 

18 So you each have five minutes to speak. 

19 There is a timer here. When the light turns to 

20 yellow that means that you have one minute left 

21 and at red -- it will turn red at five minutes. 

22 And if you could start out by spelling your first 
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1 and last names for the court reporter and we 

2 would be happy to take your testimony. 

3 MR. LARSON: I will start. My name is 

4 Dr. Ronald Larson, L-A-R-S-O-N. 

5 I’m here because I’ve had a long history 

6 in Colorado on renewable energy and I totally 

7 support this plan. And I will give a little bit 

8 more background but I’m mainly here to introduce 

9 the concept of carbon dioxide removal. I gave 

10 testimony a year or so ago when this was a draft 

11 plan and said something about carbon dioxide 

12 removal. 

13 In particular, in my case for the 

14 technology called Biochar. I think it’s by far 

15 the best approach. We are seeing people take 

16 carbon out of atmosphere without any subsidies 

17 all over the world. And the reason is if you can 

18 get double -- some people triple and quadruple 

19 the amount of produce as you put charcoal into 

20 the ground. And so I think it will be -- I 

21 believe will be the least cost approach of taking 

22 carbon out of the atmosphere. I could go on 
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1 about that but I have not followed this very 

2 closely, but I know that the EPA has a Technical 

3 Advisory Committee that has been meeting on 

4 biomass. And the word biomass appears and biochar 

5 appears in those deliberations and reports on the 

6 meetings of this advisory committee. 

7 I had not planned on coming down, I 

8 planned on writing something. But my friend, 

9 Soren, gave a call, and he stayed at our house a 

10 few years ago at -- when he was here to explain 

11 things that had happened on his island of Samso 

12 in Denmark. His -– Soren, I think you were 

13 listed in a Time magazine list of a hundred or 

14 something weren’t you -- is that correct? 

15 Anyways, perhaps the most renewable 

16 energy part of the world, well over one hundred 

17 percent renewable. So he called today and I was 

18 able to clear off the twenty inches of snow 

19 enough to get down here because I wanted to talk 

20 to Soren. So I might pick up a little bit but 

21 Soren was not expecting at all to talk here. But 

22 I do think that he has a message not just from 
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1 Denmark, and not just from Samso Island, but from 

2 -- Soren? 

3 MR. HERMANSON: So my name is Soren 

4 Hermanson, S-O-R-E-N, and my family name is 

5 Hermanson, H-E-R-M-A-N-S-O-N. And I am from the 

6 Danish Island Samso. And I am representing a 

7 product that started in ’98 to convert the entire 

8 island into one hundred percent renewable energy. 

9 And this has been a really successful development 

10 over time and we are now exporting green energy 

11 to the mainland. 

12 So this was possible due to a progressive 

13 green policy of the Danish parliament. So I 

14 could say that we are kind of the symbol or the 

15 effect of a progressive long-term agreement 

16 coalition from the Danish parliament saying that 

17 we aim for reduction of CO2 and we aim for an 

18 introduction of renewable energy in the total 

19 system. We want to decommission the centralized 

20 power plants and install decentralized and power 

21 systems and wind power and solar to replace that. 

22 And to have that working, we needed to 
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1 have bills for -- for the support of the 

2 transition from an oil economy to a green economy 

3 based on local resources. And we did that so 

4 successfully that we have been recognized by your 

5 media here. I actually had a call from PBS today 

6 and they are going to broadcast the program about 

7 Denmark and Samso on Saturday. So it is taken 

8 seriously mainly because we are facing the 

9 climate carbon meeting in Paris in a few weeks. 

10 And of course this is interesting also from my 

11 perspective, what you are doing from outside in 

12 America because you are -- I mean, you are such a 

13 big community that it makes a difference, 

14 whatever you do, on what we are doing here. 

15 We can be the lighthouse leading project 

16 in Denmark but we are a rich little community in 

17 a non-part of Europe and we have enough resources 

18 to be able to do what we want to do, while you 

19 are a much more complex society. And it’s really 

20 important to see also how you solve this, how you 

21 actually make the bills that makes it possible to 

22 make these transitions from a more fossil driven 
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1 economy to kind of a cleaner act. Where you look 

2 at carbon sequestering or you look at 

3 carbonization of the CO2 problem into kind of a 

4 carbon solution, which is also interesting. 

5 We are a farming community as well and we 

6 are looking at not so much the charcoal, but we 

7 are looking at the carbon dioxide emission as our 

8 resource more than our problem, if you understand 

9 what I mean. So sequestering is interesting but 

10 it comes after the transition from fossil-fuel to 

11 green energy. Now we can talk to the farmers 

12 because they are -- they are producing our straw 

13 from the District Heating Boilers and we are then 

14 sending these out in a pipe system to all of the 

15 citizens. 

16 And again, in addition to our structure 

17 that leads to the farmers understanding that 

18 their contribution is also sequestering carbon 

19 dioxide. We keep kind of the carbon dioxide in a 

20 loop so the growth of wheat will obtain the same 

21 amount of CO2 that is emitted when we burn it in 

22 the boiler. And the ashes with the minerals is 
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1 then sent back to the top soil and spread out as 

2 fertilizer. 

3 And I see a great potential also here 

4 because you are leading industry -- you are 

5 leading farming and there are a lot of very big 

6 moves and activities and your part of the country 

7 -- your part of the world. 

8 So I think it’s time that you kind of 

9 take over the leadership here also and become the 

10 green and obviously leader that you could be if 

11 you really wanted it. Colorado is in many cases 

12 the better choices than many of the other states. 

13 But, I mean, if you look at the west coast, 

14 California is an outstanding area but it is 

15 mostly innovation and technology, where I think 

16 here you have the resources and biological 

17 development of sequestering -- carbon 

18 sequestering in your top soil. 

19 So I am pleased to be invited to -- I’m 

20 not sure how much influence I can have on the 

21 bill but for sure it is interesting to see what 

22 is happening here. And I think your role as a 
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1 leading -- kind of your leading role in the world 

2 is important. And I am really very much looking 

3 forward to what the bill will be after the carbon 

4 meeting in Paris. Because if you take on the 

5 leadership, the rest will have to follow. So 

6 good luck with that. 

7 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. And could you 

8 spell the name of your island? 

9 MR. HERMANSON: Samso, S-A-M-S-O. You 

10 can find a lot of stuff on the internet from the 

11 island. 

12 MR. LARSON: Soren, I said it was more 

13 than one hundred percent, what number? 

14 MR. HERMANSON: Like I said, we are one 

15 hundred and forty percent. We export about 80 

16 million kilowatt hours per year we export to the 

17 mainland mainly from wind and solar. 

18 MR. LARSON: I might add, I hope we are 

19 not going over here that Denmark has proposed 

20 more biomass in my interest, although it’s been -

21 - for four years it’s been mostly solar. I have 

22 solar on my house, I have an electric car and all 
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1 of that. But I’m primarily worried about taking 

2 carbon out of the atmosphere. It has to be done 

3 with biomass. You can’t do it with either wind 

4 or solar, it is not enough to simply put less 

5 carbon into the atmosphere. We must take it out. 

6 So my question was going to be out of 

7 your 140 percent, what percent -- before 

8 answering, what I was going to see of the Danish 

9 projections, you have as much biomass as wind and 

10 a lot more than solar, am I correct, as a 

11 national goal? 

12 MR. HERMANSON: We have a lot of biomass, 

13 and especially because we use the residues from 

14 farm products as our fuel. Then it’s not 

15 produced for energy, it’s produced for food. And 

16 then we take the straw or the residue from 

17 farming and convert it into energy. 

18 MS. NOONAN: Thank you both very much. 

19 MR. SWANSON: I would encourage you both 

20 to write your comments down. It is very nice 

21 technical information that you’re describing but 

22 it would help us in terms of what to do with it 
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1 via writing as well. 

2 MR. LARSON: We will sit and listen for a 

3 while too. 

4 MS. NOONAN: There is information on how 

5 to do that at the registration desk. 

6 MR. HERMANSON: Yeah, we got that 

7 information. 

8 MS. NOONAN: Thank you very much. 

9 Okay. Next we would like to call Morris 

10 Sparkman, please. Mr. Sparkman, you will have 

11 five minutes to speak. When the light turns 

12 yellow, that means that you have one minute left. 

13 MR. SPARKMAN: Okay. Perfect. 

14 MS. NOONAN: And if you could start by 

15 spelling your first and last name. 

16 MR. SPARKMAN: Sure. My name is Morris 

17 Sparkman, M-O-R-R-I-S, Sparkman, S-P-A-R-K-M-A-N. 

18 I just want to say thank you very much 

19 for the opportunity to speak this afternoon. I 

20 am currently a student at the University of 

21 Denver and I’m involved with the Collegians for a 

22 Constructive Tomorrow, which is a national based 
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1 non-profit that focuses on environmental issues. 

2 As students, my peers and I are always 

3 doing something that we can -- that will prepare 

4 us for our careers after school. We study hard, 

5 play hard on our sports teams, and work hard in 

6 our part time jobs and internships. I testify in 

7 opposition to the Clean Power Plan because it 

8 will reduce the chance of all of our hard work 

9 paying off. 

10 The CPP will increase energy costs for 

11 all Americans, but will hit low and middle income 

12 Americans hardest. It will also make it harder 

13 for recent graduates, like I intend to be pretty 

14 soon, from making ends meet on our own and moving 

15 out of our parents’ homes. With almost all of us 

16 dealing with heavy student loans, the last thing 

17 we need is the monthly utility bill removing our 

18 ability to save a few bucks at the end of each 

19 month. 

20 The EPA claims more taxpayer-financed 

21 energy subsidies will help the poorest families. 

22 What about everyone else? The President and many 
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1 others say that becoming more reliant on 

2 renewable energy is about future generations. 

3 But if the only way our least fortunate can 

4 afford the CPP is with subsidies, thus increasing 

5 our historically high debt, then the CPP is only 

6 hurting future generations, like myself, who will 

7 have to pay for these bills down the line. Those 

8 checks you are writing now will have to be cashed 

9 by my generation. 

10 Others argue that whatever the cost, 

11 whatever the burden, it is worth to preserve the 

12 planet. However, according to climatologist 

13 Judith Curry from the Georgia Tech, this plan 

14 will prevent less than 0.3 degrees Fahrenheit of 

15 global warming 85 years from now. 

16 According to the CFACT’s research, states 

17 that rely on coal to heat and power their homes 

18 currently pay eight to nine cents per kilowatt19 hour. Green energy states like California pay 

20 fifteen to seventeen cents per kilowatt hour, 

21 while renewable heavy countries such as Germany 

22 and Denmark pay thirty-six to forty cents per 
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1 kilowatt hour. Whether one thinks it is worth 

2 the cost or not, it is clear that plans like this 

3 will make it harder to pay those electricity 

4 bills. 

5 At least twelve states will have to 

6 impose 40 to 48 percent reductions in emissions. 

7 Those states now get between 50 and 96 percent of 

8 their electricity from coal and nearly all of 

9 their electricity from coal plants plus natural 

10 gas. But under the CPP even more power plants 

11 running on natural gas to replace coal plants 

12 would not be able to be counted as renewable. 

13 When those energy bills become harder to 

14 pay, employers have less wiggle room in their 

15 budgets to hire recent graduates. Energy bills 

16 affect every sector of the economy. 

17 It will not just be only a specific major 

18 of study that is affected by this, it will impact 

19 all students. And I ask that you do not make the 

20 difficult task of landing a job any more 

21 difficult than it already is for us. 

22 Again, I ask on behalf of CFACT’s 
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1 students nationwide, and on behalf of my 

2 generation, to reconsider this plan and the 

3 impact that it will have on us through the job 

4 market and future debt, in exchange for almost no 

5 progress in reducing global temperatures. 

6 Thank you. 

7 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Would anyone 

8 else like to speak at this time? 

9 (No audible response) 

10 MS. NOONAN: Okay. We will continue to 

11 wait and be available until 5:00 o’clock. 

12 (Whereupon, at 4:01 p.m., a short recess 

13 was taken) 

14 4:10 p.m. 

15 MS. NOONAN: Okay. We are going to start 

16 back up. The hearing reconvenes. And we will 

17 call Mr. John Shepard. Come to the table and you 

18 will have five minutes to speak. You can just 

19 have a seat. 

20 MR. SHEPARD: Here? 

21 MS. NOONAN: Yeah, right there. 

22 MR. SHEPARD: Okay. 
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1 MS. NOONAN: And you can have -- this is 

2 the timer. And it is set for five minutes. And 

3 so when it turns yellow, that means that you will 

4 have one minute left. And I think that’s all. 

5 And if you could start by spelling your first and 

6 last name for the court reporter. 

7 MR. SHEPARD: J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N, and last 

8 name is S-H-E-P-A-R-D. 

9 Ms. Noonan, would it be okay if you just 

10 gave me a little bit of an orientation? I’m -- I 

11 know this is open for public comment and I’m glad 

12 to be here and grateful for the opportunity. So 

13 thank you for being here. Who are you guys? 

14 MS. NOONAN: So we all work for the 

15 Environmental Protection Agency. 

16 MR. SHEPARD: EPA. 

17 MS. NOONAN: We all work for EPA and we 

18 all are part of the Air Office. The people who 

19 are involved -- 

20 MR. SHEPARD: In D.C. or -- 

21 MS. NOONAN: No. The regional office in 

22 Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, which is 
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1 where we are. And then we have also had folks 

2 from D.C. who have sat on the panel throughout 

3 the day. 

4 MR. SHEPARD: Well, thank you for coming 

5 in for this and welcome to snow land. 

6 Okay. My name is Jonathan Shepard and I 

7 am a registered professional engineer in the 

8 State of Colorado, P.E. I am a registered lead 

9 associate professional in building design and 

10 construction from the United States Green 

11 Building Counsel, which means leadership in 

12 environmental efficient design. I am a certified 

13 energy manager from the Society of American 

14 Energy Engineers. I have a mechanical engineer 

15 in building, optimizing energy efficiency 

16 background, but I also have a lot of policy and 

17 strategy under my belt as of now. 

18 I’m also a candidate for a Masters in 

19 Science for Global Energy Management from the 

20 University of Colorado, Denver graduate school of 

21 business. And I feel like it’s a little bit of a 

22 civic duty to come and share on a public note. So 
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1 I specialize in carbon and I also specialize in 

2 what an energy person might think of as 

3 downstream or demand side management. 

4 So I’m here to say a few things to the 

5 EPA that I have seen from the downstream side of 

6 it. I know a lot of my colleagues are in 

7 upstream EMP with oil, gas -- it’s thought of 

8 differently in coal. But right now I have been 

9 to London for two weeks and one of the last days 

10 was in Oxford with the Oxford Institute on Energy 

11 Studies which focuses globally on what’s going on 

12 from a national sort of point of view, like how 

13 can we get national policy instituted in certain 

14 areas. 

15 India is a big issue and China is a big 

16 issue. And so I’m trying to go a bit beyond CPP 

17 with you for a second and asking you to encourage 

18 your -- I’m not certain if this is appropriate, 

19 like in network marketing they have upline and 

20 downline. So go back and encourage your upline, 

21 all the way up to Obama, to really take the lead 

22 on this because we have seen EPA regulations 
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1 within the past historically, the Clean Water 

2 Act, The Clean Air Act, and then a regime comes 

3 in or a presidential administration such as 

4 Reagan, et cetera, and then just release all of 

5 the enforcement. So what we saw was republicans 

6 passed historically -- after the EPA was gung-ho 

7 on doing all of this super fun cleanup, and I 

8 have seen it here in Colorado especially and 

9 Minnesota, which is, yeah, well, let’s just pass 

10 some legislation on how that’s enforced, okay. 

11 So if an emitter that is grandfathered in has a 

12 lot of upgrading to do to comply with -- I don't 

13 know if I’m saying the right jargon, please stop 

14 me and ask for clarification -- does PM 2.5 ring 

15 a bell for you guys? It’s just not stringent 

16 enough these days. Have you seen Chasing Ice? 

17 Do you know what’s going on with that? 

18 Basically we have soot particulate 

19 matter. And I have even heard from industry, 

20 some people legally trying to get around it 

21 saying soot, EPA doesn’t regulate soot. EPA 

22 regulates air pollution. Soot, that’s not 
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1 carbon, that’s not mercury or whatever. Well, 

2 soot is -- just a recap on the Chasing Ice. This 

3 is scientifically proven and not disputed now. 

4 It acts as a heatsink for the sun’s 

5 energy. It accumulates that energy and starts 

6 melting ice immediately, and then bands together 

7 other soot particles and the heatsink becomes 

8 bigger. The holes actually penetrate hundreds of 

9 feet through portions of the glacier. And we 

10 have more than ninety-five percent of the Earth’s 

11 glaciers receding -- melting. A lot of them are 

12 gone. Maybe less than two percent are actually 

13 increasing. But if you want the stats on that, 

14 I’m not going to throw out any real factual data 

15 that is going to dispute the truth. I’m just 

16 saying, hey, it’s soot. That’s not from carbon 

17 emissions, that’s not from greenhouse gases, this 

18 is particulate matter 2.5. So we are not 

19 stringent enough. So we’ve got to go and get 

20 really stringent on that. 

21 Now, where does the soot come from? One 

22 hundred percent from coal burning. Now, can we 
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1 regulate in the CPP, and then coming off where 

2 the incentive plan to get going -- can we come in 

3 -- what can we do? 

4 We can take the lead in China and India. 

5 China is selling dirty coal sub critical plants 

6 like crazy to India saying it’s going to bring up 

7 economic opportunity for you. They are selling 

8 it like crazy. This is going to bring you in the 

9 new world. You’re a developing country and you 

10 want to get to the first world, this is your 

11 ticket. We have got to stop that, we have to 

12 really take a big leadership hand. 

13 Was that a minute left? 

14 MS. NOONAN: Your five minutes are up, 

15 sir, I’m sorry. 

16 MR. SHEPARD: Oh, all right. So anyways, 

17 I guess that is it then. Xcel is local -- let me 

18 get fifteen seconds to wrap up. Xcel is local. 

19 I just got back from London and apparently it’s 

20 in the top fifteen dirtiest polluters in the 

21 world. They are infamous. Xcel needs to get 

22 their current coal converted to natural gas or 
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1 just decommission immediately with no tolerance. 

2 I’m just saying everything you’re doing is great. 

3 Don’t give a second, don’t give an inch anywhere 

4 with any of the states. Just keep blazing ahead. 

5 But we need much more. And it’s up to you 

6 whether you’re going to kick in subsidies for the 

7 other types of programs, wind and solar. It’s 

8 not really -- I’m in favor of CPP, I’m hoping 

9 that our state takes the lead and enforces it 

10 all. And the last thing is that hopefully if 

11 other states choose not to, you will go ahead and 

12 do a federal plan to make them. 

13 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Great. 

14 MR. SHEPARD: Thank you. 

15 MS. NOONAN: Thanks you so much. 

16 MR. SHEPARD: Sorry for going over. 

17 MS. NOONAN: Thank you. Daniel Downs. 

18 Okay. You will have five minutes, as you know, 

19 with one minute left turning yellow. Okay. And 

20 spell your first and last name. 

21 MR. DOWNS: My name is Daniel Downs. 

22 First name is D-A-N-I-E-L, last name is D-O-W-N-
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1 S. And then first of all, just thank you for 

2 letting me be here today. It’s been a pleasure 

3 listening to everyone talking and giving their 

4 input. 

5 I approve the EPA’s implementation of the 

6 Clean Power Plan. I’ve heard a lot about 

7 thinking that the EPA is overstepping their 

8 authority in implementing this plan. But I would 

9 like to remind them that that’s the EPA 

10 fulfilling its responsibilities in our 

11 government. The market for energy has long 

12 failed to take into account the externalities 

13 that accompany the production of coal. And it 

14 may appear cheap on the front end, a lot of the 

15 costs are born on the back end and aren’t 

16 reflected in the price. We as consumers may pay 

17 less in our electric bill but we pay for it with 

18 our health and the environment. The reality is 

19 that we pay a lot. 

20 And these burdens don’t fall equally. 

21 These extra externalities disproportionally fall 

22 on the politically powerless and disadvantaged 
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1 like Environmental Justice Communities. The EPA 

2 must move forward with the CPP to fix with the 

3 free market cannot and will not do. 

4 MS. NOONAN: Okay. Well thank you. 

5 (Whereupon, at 4:38 p.m., a short recess 

6 was taken) 

7 5:00 p.m. 

8 MS. NOONAN: This is Jenny Noonan and we are 

9 closing out the public hearing. It is adjourned. 

10 (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m. the public 

11 hearing was adjourned.) 

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