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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 TEST PROCEDURES FOR RESIDENTIAL FURNACES 

 AND BOILERS 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 + + + + + 

 WEDNESDAY 

 MARCH 13, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The Public Meeting met in Room 8E089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., 

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, 

Meeting Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public 

 Solutions, Inc. 

ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy 

DAVID CASE, Department of Energy 

JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy 

ERIC STAS, Department of Energy 

ALSO PRESENT 
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JOHN BUSSE, U.S. Boiler Company 

ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting 

ROSS DILLON, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar, LLC 

ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National 

 Laboratory 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 

 Project 

CATHERINE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting 

HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy 

 -Efficient Economy 

FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and 

 Refrigeration Institute 

PHILLIP STEPHENS, Heat Transfer Products, Inc. 

MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council 
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

Welcome, Introductions, and Agenda Review 

 .. 4 

Introduction, Opening Remarks from Interested 

 Parties, Regulatory History, and 

 Rulemaking Overview .................. 9 

Description of the Issue, Options, Proposed 

 Corrective Action, and Review of 

 Results ............................. 12 

Other Issues and Comments; 

 Closing Remarks ..................... 25 

Adjourn 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:01 a.m. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning, 

4 everyone. And welcome. This is the U.S. 

5 Department of Energy's public meeting on test 

6 procedures for residential furnaces and 

7 continuing, boilers and energy conservation 

8 standards for residential boilers. 

9 Today is Wednesday, March 13, 2013 

10 here at the Department of Energy, the 

11 Forrestal Building. 

12 My name is Doug Brookman, Public 

13 Solutions. We're going to start this morning 

14 with welcoming remarks from John Cymbalsky. 

15 MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you, Doug. 

16 This is John Cymbalsky. I'm the Program 

17 Manager for Building Codes and Appliance 

18 Standards here at the Department of Energy. 

19 I'd like to welcome all of you to today's 

20 public meeting on test procedures and the 

21 framework for residential boilers. 

22 And so we're going to run this as 
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1 one continuous meeting, probably take a break 

2 for a few minutes in between and with that, 

3 we'll kick it back to Doug. Thank you. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: We typically start 

5 with introductions. I'll start to my 

6 immediate left. Please say your name, 

7 organizational affiliation. You can get used 

8 to turning that microphone on and off. The 

9 little green button gets illuminated. 

10 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss 

11 with Lochinvar. We're an AO Smith Company. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, 

14 Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 

15 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American 

16 Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. 

17 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural 

18 Resources Defense Council. 

19 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

20 AHRI. 

21 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens, 

22 HTP. 
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1 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General 

2 Counsel Office. 

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, 

4 DOE. 

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky, 

6 DOE. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand up. 

8 MS. RIVEST: Catherine Rivest, 

9 Navigant Consulting. 

10 MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington, 

11 Navigant Consulting. 

12 MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence 

13 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

14 MR. DILLON: Ross Dillon, Lawrence 

15 Berkeley National Laboratory. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: If you would, 

17 please. 

18 MR. CASE: Dave Case, DOE General 

19 Counsel. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

21 MR. BUSSE: John Busse, U.S. Boiler 

22 Company. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Again, thanks to 

2 all of you for being here and for allowing us 

3 to get an early and punctual start on the day. 

4 All of you received a packet of 

5 information as you registered this morning. 

6 I'm going to do a very brief agenda review. 

7 Immediately following this agenda review is an 

8 opportunity for anybody that wishes to do so 

9 to make brief opening remarks, summary remarks 

10 about issues that matter to you. And then 

11 from there, we're going to have an 

12 introduction, opening remarks and regulatory 

13 history and rulemaking overview. From there, 

14 a description of the issue options, proposed 

15 corrective action, and review of results, 

16 other issues and comments following that, and 

17 then closing remarks. 

18 The agenda reflects that we 

19 anticipate that this test procedure segment of 

20 today's meeting will be quite brief, probably 

21 less than two hours, maybe as few as one hour. 

22 So and we'll take a break mid-morning and 
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1 then from there we'll move into the Framework 

2 for Residential Boilers segment of the meeting 

3 which will last from 11 o'clock probably until 

4 3 o'clock or so this afternoon. And we'll 

5 break mid-day for lunch. 

6 I ask for your consideration. I 

7 see a few new faces in the room. If you 

8 would, please, speak one at a time and if you 

9 could say your name for the record each time 

10 you speak. There will be a complete 

11 transcript of this meeting. We're also 

12 broadcasting this via the web. Welcome to all 

13 webinar participants, glad to have you with 

14 us. The Department of Energy is trying hard 

15 to make these meetings accessible to all. 

16 Please keep the focus here. Turn 

17 your cell phones on silent mode. Limit 

18 sidebar conversations. You've already gotten 

19 in the habit of turning those microphones on 

20 and off. If you could be concise and share the 

21 air time with your comments, and particularly 

22 those joining us via the web, if you could 
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1 keep your telephones on mute and you can raise 

2 your hand and our web master will insert you 

3 to involve you in the conversation, to ask a 

4 question or give a comment as we proceed. 

5 All of you received this packet of 

6 PowerPoint slides and also the Federal 

7 Register notice. The PowerPoint slides will 

8 be the basis, the structure from which we 

9 receive both presentation and comment. So 

10 that's how we'll track what's going on here. 

11 So as we promised at the outset, 

12 we'll now turn to opening remarks. Summary 

13 statements here at the outset for anybody that 

14 wishes to. None at this time. 

15 So let's proceed then with the 

16 content. I guess we're going to hear from 

17 Adam. 

18 MR. DARLINGTON: Good morning. 

19 Adam Darlington, Navigant Consulting. 

20 I'm going to go through basically 

21 a quick background on statutory authority, the 

22 recent regulatory history for furnace test 
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1 procedures and then a quick rulemaking 

2 overview. 

3 So I think Doug has already gone 

4 through a good bit of these slides. Here, 

5 I'll just highlight. So throughout the 

6 presentation, we will have several requests 

7 for comments. They'll be highlighted by these 

8 yellow comment boxes you'll see on the slides. 

9 And the regulatory history. So 

10 the Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 1975 

11 established DOE's Energy Conservation Program 

12 which basically gave DOE the authority to 

13 cover residential furnaces and boilers. It 

14 directed DOE to establish test procedures in 

15 conjunction with the energy conservation 

16 standards. 

17 And a more recent update to EPCA 

18 was the Energy Independence and Security Act 

19 of 2007. And that directed DOE to account for 

20 the standby and off mode energy consumption 

21 and directed DOE to develop a test procedure 

22 for standby and off mode consumption of 
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1 boilers, sorry, for furnaces and boilers. 

2 So a quick overview of the 

3 regulatory history. Basically, the test 

4 procedures in the current form were 

5 essentially established May 1997. They 

6 reference ASHRAE standard 103-1993 version. 

7 As a side note, there was a small update in 

8 February of 1998. Then in October 2010, DOE 

9 reacting to the Energy Independence and 

10 Security Act of 2007 requirements established 

11 a method for determining the standby and off 

12 mode energy consumption of residential 

13 furnaces and boilers. And that method was 

14 largely based on the IEC Standard 62301. 

15 And then more recently, DOE has 

16 updated to the second edition of IEC 62301. 

17 And recently, on January 4, 2013, DOE 

18 published a request for information. And that 

19 basically opened up the test procedure, all 

20 aspects of the test procedure for review. And 

21 it's much more broad in scope than this 

22 particular rulemaking. 
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1 So today's discussion is to focus 

2 only on a couple of missing equations which 

3 we'll get into later when we get into the 

4 description of the issue. But I would just 

5 note that the January 4 notice was to initiate 

6 a much larger rulemaking that's going to take 

7 much longer than we would expect for this one. 

8 And with that, I'll get into the 

9 rulemaking overview quickly. So right now, 

10 we're in the NOPR phase. DOE published the 

11 NOPR for this on February 4th. DOE expects to 

12 go to a final rule as the next step. 

13 Obviously, we're holding a public meeting 

14 today on March 13 and comments on the proposal 

15 are due by April 22, 2013. So the plan 

16 tentatively, you know, barring any unforeseen 

17 circumstances is that DOE would issue a final 

18 rule sometime within the next few months, the 

19 summer of 2013. 

20 And with that, I'm going to turn 

21 it over to Catherine to take you guys through 

22 the description of the issue and DOE's 
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1 proposed corrective action. 

2 MS. RIVEST: Great, thank you, 

3 Adam. I'm Catherine Rivest from Navigant 

4 Consulting and I'll be going over the 

5 description of the issues as well as the 

6 options and proposed corrective action. 

7 So on to the description of the 

8 issue. As many of you know, the federal test 

9 procedure heavily references ASHRAE standard 

10 103 from 1993. Section 9.10 of ASHRAE 103 

11 allows for the omission of the heat-up and 

12 cool-down tests if certain conditions are met. 

13 Those conditions being that it must be a 

14 condensing unit and have no measurable air 

15 flow through the heat exchanger during the off 

16 cycle and it must have a post-purge period of 

17 less than five seconds. 

18 So although the test procedure 

19 allows for the omission of the cyclical tests 

20 for all units meeting this criteria, it 

21 currently lacks the calculation necessary to 

22 calculate the heating seasonal efficiency for 
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1 two-stage and modulating condensing furnaces 

2 and boilers that meet that criteria. But this 

3 problem doesn't exist for single stage units 

4 because the test procedure does have the 

5 appropriate equation to account for Section 

6 9.10. 

7 So description of the inflation 

8 issues that's caused by this missing equation. 

9 So for most models, the AFUE is calculated 

10 using a computer program that was developed by 

11 the NIST and then later refined by AHRI's 

12 predecessor GAMA. 

13 And for models tested using 

14 section 9.10, many test engineers just entered 

15 zeros in for the heat-up and cool-down tests 

16 and being as there was no equation to 

17 calculate the heating seasonable efficiency 

18 for modulating units, those zeros were assumed 

19 to be correct and used as if they were actual 

20 heat-up and cool-down values. And this caused 

21 an inflation issue. And research into this 

22 issue by AHRI discovered that this would lead 
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1 to a 1 to 4 percent AFUE inflation in the 

2 models. And we also want to note 

3 that although the test procedure changes that 

4 DOE is proposing today might lead to a revised 

5 AFUE standard for certain models, these are 

6 very high-efficiency models so we wouldn't 

7 expect that the revised AFUE would lead to an 

8 AFUE lower than the standard. 

9 Moving on to the options and 

10 proposed corrective action, DOE had two 

11 options -- DOE has considered two options to 

12 address this issue. The first would be to 

13 suspend the use of option 9.10 for modulating 

14 units that meet the criteria of section 9.10, 

15 but DOE decided not to pursue this option 

16 because it would lead to increased burden on 

17 manufacturers and there is another option 

18 available. 

19 DOE decided instead to go with 

20 Option 2 which was to add additional equations 

21 to account for the use of section 9.10 for 

22 modulating units. This is what we're going to 
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1 be describing today. The proposed revision to 

2 the test procedure would rectify the error by 

3 adopting additional equations for the 

4 calculation of the part-load efficiencies at 

5 the maximum and reduced rates for units 

6 eligible of utilizing section 9.10. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Catherine, just a 

8 little louder. 

9 MS. RIVEST: So here is the 

10 proposed concept. As I mentioned previously, 

11 for single stage condensing units, the test 

12 procedure provides two separate equations to 

13 calculate the heating-seasonal efficiency. The 

14 top equation here shows how the TP calculates 

15 the heating-seasonal efficiency when option 

16 9.10 is not employed and the heat-up and cool17 down tests are conducted. 

18 You'll notice the equation sums 

19 the on and off cycle sensible and infiltration 

20 heat losses. Alternatively, the lower 

21 equation accounts for the section 9.10 and 

22 here the cyclical infiltration and sensible 
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1 heat losses are replaced by the steady-state 

2 sensible heat losses. And this is the concept 

3 that's described in section 9.10 and also the 

4 one that's used for single-stage units and 

5 it's the one that we're proposing to adopt for 

6 modulating units. 

7 So here are the proposed equations 

8 that replace the heat losses that I just 

9 described on the previous slide. DOE tested 

10 two modulating condensing boilers and 

11 conducted the heat-up and cool-down tests 

12 along with did the calculations using the new 

13 proposed calculations on the slide and found 

14 that the results were extremely close in both 

15 cases. 

16 So now we'll open it up for 

17 comment on the proposed equation. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff. Jeff, say 

19 your name for the record, please. 

20 MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss 

21 with Lochinvar. To clarify, is the option of 

22 running the heat-up and cool-down tests and 
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1 doing the calculation with that data rather 

2 than the zero entry intended to not be allowed 

3 as an option or is this an additional option 

4 to running the heat-up and cool-down testing 

5 and calculating the AFUE that way? 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley. 

7 MS. ARMSTRONG: That is an 

8 additional option, but both options are -- 

9 that's the proposal at least, for comment. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Phillip I 

11 think. Is that correct, Phillip? 

12 MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip 

13 Stephens. My question is along the same 

14 lines. Will manufacturers be expected to use 

15 the same equations for all models in a series? 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Once we've adopted 

18 a final test procedure and compliance with 

19 that test procedure is required, yes, it's 

20 applicable to all basic models distributed in 

21 the U.S. So if it affects your ratings as 

22 they are currently calculated by the existing 
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1 test procedure, you would need to retest or 

2 recalculate and rerate. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please keep 

4 going, Phillip. 

5 MR. STEPHENS: I don't think I 

6 expressed that clearly. Say we have a product 

7 line that has five products in it. Would 

8 there be any issues with testing three of 

9 those to the heat-up and cool-down test and 

10 the remainder to the new option? 

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from 

12 DOE. No, it's at your discretion. Will both 

13 options end up being adopted as part of the 

14 final rule and they are both separate options, 

15 it's at your discretion which one you use. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs. 

17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

18 I just want to note for the record that what I 

19 heard in this last exchange is some of the 

20 ambiguity across the terms “product line”, 

21 “basic model”, and other things that have huge 

22 outcroppings when we get to certification 
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1 compliance and enforcement. 

2 And as I said, I just want to note 

3 that it seems to be a huge number of species 

4 in this genus of classification. The 

5 Department's taxonomy doesn't always seem to 

6 map into the different classes of equipment 

7 which certainly don't seem to map into each 

8 other's. End of rant. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 

10 you, Harvey. 

11 Okay. Other comments on these -- 

12 the concept and these equations? 

13 Yes, please, Frank Stanonik. 

14 MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik, 

15 AHRI. More of an editorial. I mean first of 

16 all, for many who probably don't recognize it, 

17 we're appreciative that DOE came to the same 

18 conclusion on the calculations as we did in 

19 terms of the appropriate fix, if you will. 

20 But I think for -- it would be useful because 

21 the problem really was identified in the case 

22 of boilers, I think it would be useful in 
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1 DOE's regulation to actually go to the next 

2 step and say and provide the calculation that 

3 says if you don't have a standing pilot 

4 because effective as of September 2012, pilots 

5 are not standing pilots, aren't allowed on 

6 most gas boilers anymore. So it might be 

7 useful to then show, okay, if there's no 

8 pilot, this equation reduces to -- and just 

9 because it becomes simpler and my experience 

10 is we can all do the math and say gee, that 

11 becomes T sub ON is one, but it's also 

12 probably useful to have it in the regulation 

13 to say oh, this simplifies too. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Frank. 

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey. 

17 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

18 This may be getting ahead of things, but my 

19 ears certainly picked up with the term 

20 inflation for advanced equipment that's 

21 modulating. And there are two questions on my 

22 mind. One of them is that we start seeing -- 
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1 well, the first one is if a manufacturer has a 

2 device that might have been subject to this 

3 inflation, will the existing product be 

4 required to rerate with the new equations? 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley 

6 from DOE. Yes. If the revised procedure -- 

7 I'll say one caveat. If the revised procedure 

8 as adopted will result in a less efficient 

9 rating, then yes, it's required to rerate. 

10 MR. SACHS: Then I think we all 

11 need to be -- I'm not saying that's a bad 

12 idea, but we're now seeing some of the 

13 incentive programs moving or considering 

14 moving to levels that are high enough that 

15 this will be a matter of concern. I think it 

16 will be important to get the word out as 

17 people are planning their utility-incentive 

18 programs and other vehicles for stimulating 

19 the sales of these devices. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great, thank you. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional, perhaps 

22 final comments on this series of equations? 
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1 MS. RIVEST: Great, thank you. So 

2 finally DOE has estimated what the impact 

3 would be of the proposed test procedure 

4 correction on manufacturers and small 

5 businesses. And DOE determined that this 

6 would not lead to an increased test burden, 

7 nor would it have a substantial impact on a 

8 large number of small businesses. And DOE 

9 reached this conclusion by comparing the costs 

10 of rerating using different approaches, so DOE 

11 estimated that the cost of performing a heat12 up and cool-down test would be approximately 

13 $120 per basic model. 

14 In contrast, DOE estimated that it 

15 would only cost approximately $30 to $60 per 

16 model to calculate manually using the new 

17 equations and alternatively, manufacturers or 

18 AHRI could decide to reprogram the software. 

19 And we determined that this would be a one20 time cost of approximately $1280 to $3200 and 

21 that the per model cost would depend on how 

22 many models would be rerated using that 
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1 program. 

2 And so DOE is seeking comment on 

3 the conclusion that this would not have a 

4 significant impact on small manufacturers or 

5 increased test burden substantially. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff? 

7 MR. KLEISS: One thing that's 

8 missed within the cost analysis to perform 

9 heat-up and cool-down tests, the completion of 

10 that particular test may be roughly accurate. 

11 But in order to get that you cannot simply 

12 apply that test to one boiler, run it on one 

13 boiler and apply it to test results from 

14 another appliance. So you would have to rerun 

15 the entire test on that product or that family 

16 of products. 

17 So the test burden for running the 

18 heat-up and cool-down is actually easily ten 

19 times what's listed there. But the overall 

20 conclusion, I think, is correct. 

21 MS. RIVEST: Thank you. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 
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1 Additional comments on the Department's 

2 conclusion about small impacts? 

3 Phillip? 

4 MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens. 

5 Yes, we agree. We believe there's at least an 

6 order of magnitude difference in the result of 

7 the cost to manufacturers. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. 

9 MS. RIVEST: Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments? 

11 No additional comments. Okay. So as we had 

12 said at the outset, and as is our standard 

13 practice, we've reached the end. And provide 

14 another opportunity for comments, summary 

15 remarks, other issues that anybody wishes to 

16 raise relevant to this. 

17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Doug, I do want to 

18 say one thing. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Ashley. 

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I did want to 

21 note, we did not present the actual results 

22 of our testing as part of this presentation. 
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1 On Slide 22, we did take two models. We did 

2 test them with the new procedures. 

3 Just so you can see, we did the 

4 heat-up and cool-down test and then we did the 

5 separate calculation test. So you can see how 

6 those two methods compare. The current 

7 ratings of model A and model B are somewhere 

8 in the mid-90s. I don't have them right off 

9 the hand, but you can see what the new ratings 

10 would be. 

11 So I did want to point that out 

12 because we did separately verify this before 

13 we put out this proposal, just for your 

14 information. It's in the backup slides. It's 

15 in the notice as well. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Please, sorry. 

17 MR. STANONIK: Yeah, I want to 

18 follow up a little bit on Harvey's comment. 

19 Frank Stanonik, AHRI. 

20 Again, everyone may not be aware, 

21 but in terms of the residential boilers that 

22 were listed in AHRI's program, we took some 
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1 extraordinary steps regarding this situation. 

2 And essentially, I can say we forced rerating 

3 until the matter was resolved. 

4 But we're also aware that not 

5 everyone who manufactures and sells boilers in 

6 the United States is in the AHRI's program and 

7 so we are very much interested in DOE advising 

8 other manufacturers who have certified boilers 

9 listed with DOE that have this situation of 

10 the circumstance and the need to reevaluate 

11 their rating. 

12 As you've noted in some products 

13 it's significant and in others may be not as 

14 much. But it is important obviously to us 

15 that everyone gets back to the same point in 

16 terms of how they rate their products. 

17 The other thing is part of what 

18 we've done, again, until the calculation 

19 officially is part of the procedures, as far 

20 as products in our program that option of not 

21 running the heat-up and cool-down and using 

22 the correct calculation really doesn't exist. 
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1 And so it's also very important to us that 

2 this gets finalized as quickly as possible so 

3 that it becomes part of the procedure. 

4 I'll tell you I'm a little 

5 disappointed that it had a -- what I consider 

6 a fairly extensive public review period. I 

7 wish it would have been shorter, but it is 

8 what it is and would just encourage DOE to get 

9 this finished as quickly as possible. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

11 Eric Stas. 

12 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE. 

13 There's a 75-day review period required by 

14 NAFTA for test procedure rulemaking so we 

15 didn't really have discretion to cut it down, 

16 but it seems like a fairly simple issue we're 

17 tackling, so I would think you would go to 

18 final rule rather quickly. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Frank. 

20 MR. STANONIK: Okay, 75 days for 

21 NOPRs, right? All right. I'm just reacting. 

22 We've seen quite a few notices from DOE 
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1 lately. Much shorter period. Thank you. 

2 MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE. 

3 Frank my dandelion was turned off. Can you 

4 repeat that remark about wanting a shorter 

5 public review period? 

6 (Laughter.) 

7 MR. SACHS: I also -- Harvey 

8 Sachs. Again, I want to come back to my prior 

9 comment that we have at least three separate 

10 incentive programs or recognition programs at 

11 high level. Energy Star most efficient which 

12 may not cover boilers, yet. It does. 

13 The top ten U.S.A. for the very 

14 most efficient and the efforts that Consortium 

15 for Energy Efficiency to recognize high16 performing products, it's very important to 

17 the community to let these people know what 

18 the current status is, know where there may be 

19 anomalies in reported results now and the date 

20 by which it is expected that this will be 

21 resolved. 

22 I realize this may not be a legal 
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1 responsibility and we're certainly prepared to 

2 help with it, but it does seem to be really 

3 important with a few million dollars hither 

4 and yon at stake. Thank you. 

5 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, this is 

6 Ashley from DOE. I think that we've actively 

7 started those discussions. We probably have 

8 not hit every one, but we did proactively 

9 start that. 

10 MR. SACHS: Thank you. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all. Yet 

12 another invitation for final remarks, perhaps 

13 closing remarks as we move towards closure 

14 here. Okay, then thanks to all of you for 

15 participating. This meeting on test 

16 procedures is now concluding. Thanks to the 

17 webinar participants for joining us. We're 

18 going to adjourn now until 11 o'clock as 

19 reflected in the - you want to start earlier? 

20 MR. CYMBALSKY: So as noted in the 

21 Federal Registers notice, the framework 

22 meeting was going to dovetail off of this. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

2 MR. CYMBALSKY: So we will roll 

3 right into the framework meeting. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right now? 

5 MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I guess we'll 

7 start immediately then. Okay, 15 minutes. 

8 It's now 9:30 which means we'll resume at 9:45 

9 and at that point we will begin to conduct the 

10 Framework for Residential Boilers meeting. 

11 Let me remind you, you must wear 

12 this badge visibly if you're in the Forrestal 

13 Building. If you go to the coffee shop, 

14 please go quickly. It's on the ground floor. 

15 Go to the elevator bank, ground floor, hang a 

16 left, and it's right over here. And restrooms 

17 are at both ends of the hall. 

18 Thanks for a good start on the 

19 day. We'll see you back here at 9:45 to 

20 resume. 

21 (Whereupon, at 9:30 a.m., the 

22 meeting above-entitled matter was concluded.) 
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started 30:7

Stas 1:16 6:1,1

28:11,12,12

statements 9:13

States 27:6

status 29:18

statutory 9:21

steady-state 17:1

step 12:12 21:2

Stephens 2:8 5:21

5:21 18:12,13

19:5 25:4,4

steps 27:1

stimulating 22:18

structure 9:8

sub 21:11

subject 22:2

substantial 23:7

substantially 24:5

summary 7:9 9:12

25:14

summer 12:19

sums 16:18

suspend 15:13

S.W 1:10

T

T 21:11

TABLE 3:1

tackling 28:17

take 5:1 7:22 12:6

12:21 26:1

taxonomy 20:5

telephones 9:1

tell 28:4

ten 24:18 29:13

tentatively 12:16

term 21:19

terms 19:20 20:19

26:21 27:16

test 1:3 4:5,20 7:19

9:22 10:14,21

11:3,19,20 13:8

13:18 14:4,14

15:3 16:2,11

18:18,19 19:1,9

23:3,6,12 24:5,10

24:12,13,15,17

26:2,4,5 28:14

30:15

tested 14:13 17:9

testing 18:4 19:8

25:22

tests 13:12,19

14:15 16:17 17:11

17:22 24:9

thank 4:15 5:3,12

6:20 13:2 20:9,9

21:14,15 22:20

23:1 24:21,22

25:8,9 28:10 29:1

30:4,10

thanks 7:1 30:11

30:14,16 31:18

thing 24:7 25:18

27:17

things 19:21 21:18

think 10:3 18:11

19:5 20:20,22

22:10,15 24:20

28:17 30:6

three 19:8 29:9

time 8:8,9,21 9:14

23:20

times 24:19

today 4:9 12:14

15:4 16:1

today's 4:19 7:20

12:1

top 16:14 29:13

TP 16:14

track 9:10

transcript 8:11

Transfer 2:8

trying 8:14

turn 8:16 9:12

12:20

turned 29:3

turning 5:8 8:19

two 7:21 15:10,11

16:12 17:10 21:21

26:1,6

two-stage 14:1

typically 5:4

U

unforeseen 12:16

unit 13:14

United 27:6

units 13:20 14:3,18

15:14,22 16:5,11

17:4,6

update 10:17 11:7

updated 11:16

use 15:13,21 18:14

19:15

useful 20:20,22

21:7,12

utility-incentive

22:17

utilizing 16:6

U.S 1:1 2:1 4:4 6:21

18:21

U.S.A 29:13

V

values 14:20

vehicles 22:18

verify 26:12

version 11:6

visibly 31:12

W

Waltner 2:8 5:17

5:17

want 15:2 19:18

20:2 25:17,20

26:11,17 29:8

30:19

wanting 29:4

Washington 1:11

way 18:5

wear 31:11

web 8:12,22 9:2

webinar 8:13 30:17

Wednesday 1:7 4:9

welcome 3:2 4:4,19

8:12

welcoming 4:14

we'll 5:3 7:22 8:1,4

9:10,12 12:3

17:16 31:6,8,19

we're 4:13,22 5:11

7:11 8:11 9:16

12:10,13 15:22

17:5 20:17 22:12

27:4 28:16 30:1

30:17

we've 18:17 25:13

27:18 28:22 30:6

wish 28:7

wishes 7:8 9:14

25:15

word 22:16

wouldn't 15:6

Y

Yeah 26:17

yellow 10:8

yon 30:4

Z

zero 18:2

zeros 14:15,18

$

$120 23:13

$1280 23:20

$30 23:15

$3200 23:20

$60 23:15
202-234-4433

Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.

Page 37

0

089 1:10

1

1 15:1

1000 1:10

103 13:10,10

103-1993 11:6

11 8:3 30:18

12 3:6

13 1:8 4:9 12:14

15 31:7

1975 10:10

1993 13:10

1997 11:5

1998 11:8

2

2 15:20

2007 10:19 11:10

2010 11:8

2012 21:4

2013 1:8 4:9 11:17

12:15,19

22 12:15 26:1

25 3:8

3

3 8:4

4

4 3:2 11:17 12:5

15:1

4th 12:11

6

62301 11:14,16

7

75 28:20

75-day 28:13

8

8E 1:10

9

9 3:4

9.10 13:10 14:6,14

15:13,14,21 16:6

16:16,21 17:3

9:00 1:11

9:01 4:2

9:30 31:8,21

9:45 31:8,19
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

38

Test Procedures for Residential

Furnaces and Boilers

US DOE

03-13-13

Washington, DC