### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **TEST PROCEDURES FOR RESIDENTIAL FURNACES AND BOILERS** 

**+ + + + +**

**PUBLIC MEETING**

**+ + + + +**

**WEDNESDAY MARCH 13, 2013**  **+ + + + + The Public Meeting met in Room 8E**  **089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman,**  **Meeting Facilitator, presiding.**

**PRESENT DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public**  **Solutions, Inc. ASHLEY ARMSTRONG, Department of Energy**  **DAVID CASE, Department of Energy JOHN CYMBALSKY, Department of Energy**  **ERIC STAS, Department of Energy**

**ALSO PRESENT**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **JOHN BUSSE, U.S. Boiler Company ADAM DARLINGTON, Navigant Consulting**  **ROSS DILLON, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory**  **JEFF KLEISS, Lochinvar, LLC ALEX LEKOV, Lawrence Berkeley National**  **Laboratory JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness**  **Project CATHERINE RIVEST, Navigant Consulting**  **HARVEY SACHS, American Council for an Energy -Efficient Economy**  **FRANK STANONIK, Air-Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute**  **PHILLIP STEPHENS, Heat Transfer Products, Inc. MEG WALTNER, Natural Resources Defense Council** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS Welcome, Introductions, and Agenda Review**  **.. 4**

**Introduction, Opening Remarks from Interested Parties, Regulatory History, and**  **Rulemaking Overview .................. 9**

**Description of the Issue, Options, Proposed Corrective Action, and Review of**  **Results ............................. 12**

**Other Issues and Comments; Closing Remarks ..................... 25**  **Adjourn**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **9:01 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good morning,** 

### 4 **everyone. And welcome. This is the U.S.** 

### 5 **Department of Energy's public meeting on test** 

### 6 **procedures for residential furnaces and** 

### 7 **continuing, boilers and energy conservation** 

### 8 **standards for residential boilers.** 

### 9 **Today is Wednesday, March 13, 2013** 

### 10 **here at the Department of Energy, the** 

### 11 **Forrestal Building.** 

### 12 **My name is Doug Brookman, Public** 

### 13 **Solutions. We're going to start this morning** 

### 14 **with welcoming remarks from John Cymbalsky.** 

### 15 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Thank you, Doug.** 

### 16 **This is John Cymbalsky. I'm the Program** 

### 17 **Manager for Building Codes and Appliance** 

### 18 **Standards here at the Department of Energy.** 

### 19 **I'd like to welcome all of you to today's** 

### 20 **public meeting on test procedures and the** 

### 21 **framework for residential boilers.** 

### 22 **And so we're going to run this as**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 one continuous meeting, probably take a break**  

### 2 **for a few minutes in between and with that,** 

### 3 **we'll kick it back to Doug. Thank you.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: We typically start** 

### 5 **with introductions. I'll start to my** 

### 6 **immediate left. Please say your name,** 

### 7 **organizational affiliation. You can get used** 

### 8 **to turning that microphone on and off. The** 

### 9 **little green button gets illuminated.** 

### 10 **MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss** 

### 11 **with Lochinvar. We're an AO Smith Company.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 13 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer,** 

### 14 **Appliance Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 15 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, American** 

### 16 **Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.** 

### 17 **MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, Natural** 

### 18 **Resources Defense Council.** 

### 19 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 20 **AHRI.** 

### 21 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens,** 

### 22 **HTP.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE General**  

### 2 **Counsel Office.** 

### 3 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong,** 

### 4 **DOE.** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: John Cymbalsky,** 

### 6 **DOE.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand up.** 

### 8 **MS. RIVEST: Catherine Rivest,** 

### 9 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 10 **MR. DARLINGTON: Adam Darlington,** 

### 11 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 12 **MR. LEKOV: Alex Lekov, Lawrence** 

### 13 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 14 **MR. DILLON: Ross Dillon, Lawrence** 

### 15 **Berkeley National Laboratory.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: If you would,** 

### 17 **please.** 

### 18 **MR. CASE: Dave Case, DOE General** 

### 19 **Counsel.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. BUSSE: John Busse, U.S. Boiler** 

### 22 **Company.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Again, thanks to**  

### 2 **all of you for being here and for allowing us** 

### 3 **to get an early and punctual start on the day.** 

### 4 **All of you received a packet of** 

### 5 **information as you registered this morning.** 

### 6 **I'm going to do a very brief agenda review.** 

### 7 **Immediately following this agenda review is an** 

### 8 **opportunity for anybody that wishes to do so** 

### 9 **to make brief opening remarks, summary remarks** 

### 10 **about issues that matter to you. And then** 

### 11 **from there, we're going to have an** 

### 12 **introduction, opening remarks and regulatory** 

### 13 **history and rulemaking overview. From there,** 

### 14 **a description of the issue options, proposed** 

### 15 **corrective action, and review of results,** 

### 16 **other issues and comments following that, and** 

### 17 **then closing remarks.** 

### 18 **The agenda reflects that we** 

### 19 **anticipate that this test procedure segment of** 

### 20 **today's meeting will be quite brief, probably** 

### 21 **less than two hours, maybe as few as one hour.** 

### 22 **So and we'll take a break mid-morning and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 then from there we'll move into the Framework**  

### 2 **for Residential Boilers segment of the meeting** 

### 3 **which will last from 11 o'clock probably until** 

### 4 **3 o'clock or so this afternoon. And we'll** 

### 5 **break mid-day for lunch.** 

### 6 **I ask for your consideration. I** 

### 7 **see a few new faces in the room. If you** 

### 8 **would, please, speak one at a time and if you** 

### 9 **could say your name for the record each time** 

### 10 **you speak. There will be a complete** 

### 11 **transcript of this meeting. We're also** 

### 12 **broadcasting this via the web. Welcome to all** 

### 13 **webinar participants, glad to have you with** 

### 14 **us. The Department of Energy is trying hard** 

### 15 **to make these meetings accessible to all.** 

### 16 **Please keep the focus here. Turn** 

### 17 **your cell phones on silent mode. Limit** 

### 18 **sidebar conversations. You've already gotten** 

### 19 **in the habit of turning those microphones on** 

### 20 **and off. If you could be concise and share the** 

### 21 **air time with your comments, and particularly** 

### 22 **those joining us via the web, if you could**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 keep your telephones on mute and you can raise**  

### 2 **your hand and our web master will insert you** 

### 3 **to involve you in the conversation, to ask a** 

### 4 **question or give a comment as we proceed.** 

### 5 **All of you received this packet of** 

### 6 **PowerPoint slides and also the Federal** 

### 7 **Register notice. The PowerPoint slides will** 

### 8 **be the basis, the structure from which we** 

### 9 **receive both presentation and comment. So** 

### 10 **that's how we'll track what's going on here.** 

### 11 **So as we promised at the outset,** 

### 12 **we'll now turn to opening remarks. Summary** 

### 13 **statements here at the outset for anybody that** 

### 14 **wishes to. None at this time.** 

### 15 **So let's proceed then with the** 

### 16 **content. I guess we're going to hear from** 

### 17 **Adam.** 

### 18 **MR. DARLINGTON: Good morning.** 

### 19 **Adam Darlington, Navigant Consulting.** 

### 20 **I'm going to go through basically** 

### 21 **a quick background on statutory authority, the** 

### 22 **recent regulatory history for furnace test**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 procedures and then a quick rulemaking**  

### 2 **overview.** 

### 3 **So I think Doug has already gone** 

### 4 **through a good bit of these slides. Here,** 

### 5 **I'll just highlight. So throughout the** 

### 6 **presentation, we will have several requests** 

### 7 **for comments. They'll be highlighted by these** 

### 8 **yellow comment boxes you'll see on the slides.** 

### 9 **And the regulatory history. So** 

### 10 **the Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 1975** 

### 11 **established DOE's Energy Conservation Program** 

### 12 **which basically gave DOE the authority to** 

### 13 **cover residential furnaces and boilers. It** 

### 14 **directed DOE to establish test procedures in** 

### 15 **conjunction with the energy conservation** 

### 16 **standards.** 

### 17 **And a more recent update to EPCA** 

### 18 **was the Energy Independence and Security Act** 

### 19 **of 2007. And that directed DOE to account for** 

### 20 **the standby and off mode energy consumption** 

### 21 **and directed DOE to develop a test procedure** 

### 22 **for standby and off mode consumption of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 boilers, sorry, for furnaces and boilers.**  

### 2 **So a quick overview of the** 

### 3 **regulatory history. Basically, the test** 

### 4 **procedures in the current form were** 

### 5 **essentially established May 1997. They** 

### 6 **reference ASHRAE standard 103-1993 version.** 

### 7 **As a side note, there was a small update in** 

### 8 **February of 1998. Then in October 2010, DOE** 

### 9 **reacting to the Energy Independence and** 

### 10 **Security Act of 2007 requirements established** 

### 11 **a method for determining the standby and off** 

### 12 **mode energy consumption of residential** 

### 13 **furnaces and boilers. And that method was** 

### 14 **largely based on the IEC Standard 62301.** 

### 15 **And then more recently, DOE has** 

### 16 **updated to the second edition of IEC 62301.** 

### 17 **And recently, on January 4, 2013, DOE** 

### 18 **published a request for information. And that** 

### 19 **basically opened up the test procedure, all** 

### 20 **aspects of the test procedure for review. And** 

### 21 **it's much more broad in scope than this** 

### 22 **particular rulemaking.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 So today's discussion is to focus**  

### 2 **only on a couple of missing equations which** 

### 3 **we'll get into later when we get into the** 

### 4 **description of the issue. But I would just** 

### 5 **note that the January 4 notice was to initiate** 

### 6 **a much larger rulemaking that's going to take** 

### 7 **much longer than we would expect for this one.** 

### 8 **And with that, I'll get into the** 

### 9 **rulemaking overview quickly. So right now,** 

### 10 **we're in the NOPR phase. DOE published the** 

### 11 **NOPR for this on February 4th. DOE expects to** 

### 12 **go to a final rule as the next step.** 

### 13 **Obviously, we're holding a public meeting** 

### 14 **today on March 13 and comments on the proposal** 

### 15 **are due by April 22, 2013. So the plan** 

### 16 **tentatively, you know, barring any unforeseen** 

### 17 **circumstances is that DOE would issue a final** 

### 18 **rule sometime within the next few months, the** 

### 19 **summer of 2013.** 

### 20 **And with that, I'm going to turn** 

### 21 **it over to Catherine to take you guys through** 

### 22 **the description of the issue and DOE's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 proposed corrective action.**  

### 2 **MS. RIVEST: Great, thank you,** 

### 3 **Adam. I'm Catherine Rivest from Navigant** 

### 4 **Consulting and I'll be going over the** 

### 5 **description of the issues as well as the** 

### 6 **options and proposed corrective action.** 

### 7 **So on to the description of the** 

### 8 **issue. As many of you know, the federal test** 

### 9 **procedure heavily references ASHRAE standard** 

### 10 **103 from 1993. Section 9.10 of ASHRAE 103** 

### 11 **allows for the omission of the heat-up and** 

### 12 **cool-down tests if certain conditions are met.** 

### 13 **Those conditions being that it must be a** 

### 14 **condensing unit and have no measurable air** 

### 15 **flow through the heat exchanger during the off** 

### 16 **cycle and it must have a post-purge period of** 

### 17 **less than five seconds.** 

### 18 **So although the test procedure** 

### 19 **allows for the omission of the cyclical tests** 

### 20 **for all units meeting this criteria, it** 

### 21 **currently lacks the calculation necessary to** 

### 22 **calculate the heating seasonal efficiency for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 two-stage and modulating condensing furnaces**  

### 2 **and boilers that meet that criteria. But this** 

### 3 **problem doesn't exist for single stage units** 

### 4 **because the test procedure does have the** 

### 5 **appropriate equation to account for Section** 

### 6 **9.10.** 

### 7 **So description of the inflation** 

### 8 **issues that's caused by this missing equation.** 

### 9 **So for most models, the AFUE is calculated** 

### 10 **using a computer program that was developed by** 

### 11 **the NIST and then later refined by AHRI's** 

### 12 **predecessor GAMA.** 

### 13 **And for models tested using** 

### 14 **section 9.10, many test engineers just entered** 

### 15 **zeros in for the heat-up and cool-down tests** 

### 16 **and being as there was no equation to** 

### 17 **calculate the heating seasonable efficiency** 

### 18 **for modulating units, those zeros were assumed** 

### 19 **to be correct and used as if they were actual** 

### 20 **heat-up and cool-down values. And this caused** 

### 21 **an inflation issue. And research into this** 

### 22 **issue by AHRI discovered that this would lead**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 to a 1 to 4 percent AFUE inflation in the**  

### 2 **models. And we also want to note** 

### 3 **that although the test procedure changes that** 

### 4 **DOE is proposing today might lead to a revised** 

### 5 **AFUE standard for certain models, these are** 

### 6 **very high-efficiency models so we wouldn't** 

### 7 **expect that the revised AFUE would lead to an** 

### 8 **AFUE lower than the standard.** 

### 9 **Moving on to the options and** 

### 10 **proposed corrective action, DOE had two** 

### 11 **options -- DOE has considered two options to** 

### 12 **address this issue. The first would be to** 

### 13 **suspend the use of option 9.10 for modulating** 

### 14 **units that meet the criteria of section 9.10,** 

### 15 **but DOE decided not to pursue this option** 

### 16 **because it would lead to increased burden on** 

### 17 **manufacturers and there is another option** 

### 18 **available.** 

### 19 **DOE decided instead to go with** 

### 20 **Option 2 which was to add additional equations** 

### 21 **to account for the use of section 9.10 for** 

### 22 **modulating units. This is what we're going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 be describing today. The proposed revision to**  

### 2 **the test procedure would rectify the error by** 

### 3 **adopting additional equations for the** 

### 4 **calculation of the part-load efficiencies at** 

### 5 **the maximum and reduced rates for units** 

### 6 **eligible of utilizing section 9.10.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Catherine, just a** 

### 8 **little louder.** 

### 9 **MS. RIVEST: So here is the** 

### 10 **proposed concept. As I mentioned previously,** 

### 11 **for single stage condensing units, the test** 

### 12 **procedure provides two separate equations to** 

### 13 **calculate the heating-seasonal efficiency. The** 

### 14 **top equation here shows how the TP calculates** 

### 15 **the heating-seasonal efficiency when option** 

### 16 **9.10 is not employed and the heat-up and cool** 

### 17 **down tests are conducted.** 

### 18 **You'll notice the equation sums** 

### 19 **the on and off cycle sensible and infiltration** 

### 20 **heat losses. Alternatively, the lower** 

### 21 **equation accounts for the section 9.10 and** 

### 22 **here the cyclical infiltration and sensible**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 heat losses are replaced by the steady-state**  

### 2 **sensible heat losses. And this is the concept** 

### 3 **that's described in section 9.10 and also the** 

### 4 **one that's used for single-stage units and** 

### 5 **it's the one that we're proposing to adopt for** 

### 6 **modulating units.** 

### 7 **So here are the proposed equations** 

### 8 **that replace the heat losses that I just** 

### 9 **described on the previous slide. DOE tested** 

### 10 **two modulating condensing boilers and** 

### 11 **conducted the heat-up and cool-down tests** 

### 12 **along with did the calculations using the new** 

### 13 **proposed calculations on the slide and found** 

### 14 **that the results were extremely close in both** 

### 15 **cases.** 

### 16 **So now we'll open it up for** 

### 17 **comment on the proposed equation.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff. Jeff, say** 

### 19 **your name for the record, please.** 

### 20 **MR. KLEISS: This is Jeff Kleiss** 

### 21 **with Lochinvar. To clarify, is the option of** 

### 22 **running the heat-up and cool-down tests and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 doing the calculation with that data rather**  

### 2 **than the zero entry intended to not be allowed** 

### 3 **as an option or is this an additional option** 

### 4 **to running the heat-up and cool-down testing** 

### 5 **and calculating the AFUE that way?** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley.** 

### 7 **MS. ARMSTRONG: That is an** 

### 8 **additional option, but both options are --** 

### 9 **that's the proposal at least, for comment.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Phillip I** 

### 11 **think. Is that correct, Phillip?** 

### 12 **MR. STEPHENS: Yes, Phillip** 

### 13 **Stephens. My question is along the same** 

### 14 **lines. Will manufacturers be expected to use** 

### 15 **the same equations for all models in a series?** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong.** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Once we've adopted** 

### 18 **a final test procedure and compliance with** 

### 19 **that test procedure is required, yes, it's** 

### 20 **applicable to all basic models distributed in** 

### 21 **the U.S. So if it affects your ratings as** 

### 22 **they are currently calculated by the existing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 test procedure, you would need to retest or**  

### 2 **recalculate and rerate.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please keep** 

### 4 **going, Phillip.** 

### 5 **MR. STEPHENS: I don't think I** 

### 6 **expressed that clearly. Say we have a product** 

### 7 **line that has five products in it. Would** 

### 8 **there be any issues with testing three of** 

### 9 **those to the heat-up and cool-down test and** 

### 10 **the remainder to the new option?** 

### 11 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from** 

### 12 **DOE. No, it's at your discretion. Will both** 

### 13 **options end up being adopted as part of the** 

### 14 **final rule and they are both separate options,** 

### 15 **it's at your discretion which one you use.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey Sachs.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 18 **I just want to note for the record that what I** 

### 19 **heard in this last exchange is some of the** 

### 20 **ambiguity across the terms “product line”,** 

### 21 **“basic model”, and other things that have huge** 

### 22 **outcroppings when we get to certification**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 compliance and enforcement.**  

### 2 **And as I said, I just want to note** 

### 3 **that it seems to be a huge number of species** 

### 4 **in this genus of classification. The** 

### 5 **Department's taxonomy doesn't always seem to** 

### 6 **map into the different classes of equipment** 

### 7 **which certainly don't seem to map into each** 

### 8 **other's. End of rant.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank** 

### 10 **you, Harvey.** 

### 11 **Okay. Other comments on these --** 

### 12 **the concept and these equations?** 

### 13 **Yes, please, Frank Stanonik.** 

### 14 **MR. STANONIK: Frank Stanonik,** 

### 15 **AHRI. More of an editorial. I mean first of** 

### 16 **all, for many who probably don't recognize it,** 

### 17 **we're appreciative that DOE came to the same** 

### 18 **conclusion on the calculations as we did in** 

### 19 **terms of the appropriate fix, if you will.** 

### 20 **But I think for -- it would be useful because** 

### 21 **the problem really was identified in the case** 

### 22 **of boilers, I think it would be useful in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 DOE's regulation to actually go to the next**  

### 2 **step and say and provide the calculation that** 

### 3 **says if you don't have a standing pilot** 

### 4 **because effective as of September 2012, pilots** 

### 5 **are not standing pilots, aren't allowed on** 

### 6 **most gas boilers anymore. So it might be** 

### 7 **useful to then show, okay, if there's no** 

### 8 **pilot, this equation reduces to -- and just** 

### 9 **because it becomes simpler and my experience** 

### 10 **is we can all do the math and say gee, that** 

### 11 **becomes T sub ON is one, but it's also** 

### 12 **probably useful to have it in the regulation** 

### 13 **to say oh, this simplifies too.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Frank.** 

### 15 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Harvey.** 

### 17 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 18 **This may be getting ahead of things, but my** 

### 19 **ears certainly picked up with the term** 

### 20 **inflation for advanced equipment that's** 

### 21 **modulating. And there are two questions on my** 

### 22 **mind. One of them is that we start seeing --**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 well, the first one is if a manufacturer has a**  

### 2 **device that might have been subject to this** 

### 3 **inflation, will the existing product be** 

### 4 **required to rerate with the new equations?** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley** 

### 6 **from DOE. Yes. If the revised procedure --** 

### 7 **I'll say one caveat. If the revised procedure** 

### 8 **as adopted will result in a less efficient** 

### 9 **rating, then yes, it's required to rerate.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Then I think we all** 

### 11 **need to be -- I'm not saying that's a bad** 

### 12 **idea, but we're now seeing some of the** 

### 13 **incentive programs moving or considering** 

### 14 **moving to levels that are high enough that** 

### 15 **this will be a matter of concern. I think it** 

### 16 **will be important to get the word out as** 

### 17 **people are planning their utility-incentive** 

### 18 **programs and other vehicles for stimulating** 

### 19 **the sales of these devices.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Great, thank you.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional, perhaps** 

### 22 **final comments on this series of equations?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 MS. RIVEST: Great, thank you. So**  

### 2 **finally DOE has estimated what the impact** 

### 3 **would be of the proposed test procedure** 

### 4 **correction on manufacturers and small** 

### 5 **businesses. And DOE determined that this** 

### 6 **would not lead to an increased test burden,** 

### 7 **nor would it have a substantial impact on a** 

### 8 **large number of small businesses. And DOE** 

### 9 **reached this conclusion by comparing the costs** 

### 10 **of rerating using different approaches, so DOE** 

### 11 **estimated that the cost of performing a heat** 

### 12 **up and cool-down test would be approximately** 

### 13 **$120 per basic model.** 

### 14 **In contrast, DOE estimated that it** 

### 15 **would only cost approximately $30 to $60 per** 

### 16 **model to calculate manually using the new** 

### 17 **equations and alternatively, manufacturers or** 

### 18 **AHRI could decide to reprogram the software.** 

### 19 **And we determined that this would be a one** 

### 20 **time cost of approximately $1280 to $3200 and** 

### 21 **that the per model cost would depend on how** 

### 22 **many models would be rerated using that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 program.**  

### 2 **And so DOE is seeking comment on** 

### 3 **the conclusion that this would not have a** 

### 4 **significant impact on small manufacturers or** 

### 5 **increased test burden substantially.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Jeff?** 

### 7 **MR. KLEISS: One thing that's** 

### 8 **missed within the cost analysis to perform** 

### 9 **heat-up and cool-down tests, the completion of** 

### 10 **that particular test may be roughly accurate.** 

### 11 **But in order to get that you cannot simply** 

### 12 **apply that test to one boiler, run it on one** 

### 13 **boiler and apply it to test results from** 

### 14 **another appliance. So you would have to rerun** 

### 15 **the entire test on that product or that family** 

### 16 **of products.** 

### 17 **So the test burden for running the** 

### 18 **heat-up and cool-down is actually easily ten** 

### 19 **times what's listed there. But the overall** 

### 20 **conclusion, I think, is correct.** 

### 21 **MS. RIVEST: Thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 Additional comments on the Department's**  

### 2 **conclusion about small impacts?** 

### 3 **Phillip?** 

### 4 **MR. STEPHENS: Phillip Stephens.** 

### 5 **Yes, we agree. We believe there's at least an** 

### 6 **order of magnitude difference in the result of** 

### 7 **the cost to manufacturers.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you.** 

### 9 **MS. RIVEST: Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments?** 

### 11 **No additional comments. Okay. So as we had** 

### 12 **said at the outset, and as is our standard** 

### 13 **practice, we've reached the end. And provide** 

### 14 **another opportunity for comments, summary** 

### 15 **remarks, other issues that anybody wishes to** 

### 16 **raise relevant to this.** 

### 17 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Doug, I do want to** 

### 18 **say one thing.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Ashley.** 

### 20 **MS. ARMSTRONG: I did want to** 

### 21 **note, we did not present the actual results** 

### 22 **of our testing as part of this presentation.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 On Slide 22, we did take two models. We did**  

### 2 **test them with the new procedures.** 

### 3 **Just so you can see, we did the** 

### 4 **heat-up and cool-down test and then we did the** 

### 5 **separate calculation test. So you can see how** 

### 6 **those two methods compare. The current** 

### 7 **ratings of model A and model B are somewhere** 

### 8 **in the mid-90s. I don't have them right off** 

### 9 **the hand, but you can see what the new ratings** 

### 10 **would be.** 

### 11 **So I did want to point that out** 

### 12 **because we did separately verify this before** 

### 13 **we put out this proposal, just for your** 

### 14 **information. It's in the backup slides. It's** 

### 15 **in the notice as well.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please, sorry.** 

### 17 **MR. STANONIK: Yeah, I want to** 

### 18 **follow up a little bit on Harvey's comment.** 

### 19 **Frank Stanonik, AHRI.** 

### 20 **Again, everyone may not be aware,** 

### 21 **but in terms of the residential boilers that** 

### 22 **were listed in AHRI's program, we took some**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 extraordinary steps regarding this situation.**  

### 2 **And essentially, I can say we forced rerating** 

### 3 **until the matter was resolved.** 

### 4 **But we're also aware that not** 

### 5 **everyone who manufactures and sells boilers in** 

### 6 **the United States is in the AHRI's program and** 

### 7 **so we are very much interested in DOE advising** 

### 8 **other manufacturers who have certified boilers** 

### 9 **listed with DOE that have this situation of** 

### 10 **the circumstance and the need to reevaluate** 

### 11 **their rating.** 

### 12 **As you've noted in some products** 

### 13 **it's significant and in others may be not as** 

### 14 **much. But it is important obviously to us** 

### 15 **that everyone gets back to the same point in** 

### 16 **terms of how they rate their products.** 

### 17 **The other thing is part of what** 

### 18 **we've done, again, until the calculation** 

### 19 **officially is part of the procedures, as far** 

### 20 **as products in our program that option of not** 

### 21 **running the heat-up and cool-down and using** 

### 22 **the correct calculation really doesn't exist.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 And so it's also very important to us that**  

### 2 **this gets finalized as quickly as possible so** 

### 3 **that it becomes part of the procedure.** 

### 4 **I'll tell you I'm a little** 

### 5 **disappointed that it had a -- what I consider** 

### 6 **a fairly extensive public review period. I** 

### 7 **wish it would have been shorter, but it is** 

### 8 **what it is and would just encourage DOE to get** 

### 9 **this finished as quickly as possible.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 11 **Eric Stas.** 

### 12 **MR. STAS: Eric Stas, DOE.** 

### 13 **There's a 75-day review period required by** 

### 14 **NAFTA for test procedure rulemaking so we** 

### 15 **didn't really have discretion to cut it down,** 

### 16 **but it seems like a fairly simple issue we're** 

### 17 **tackling, so I would think you would go to** 

### 18 **final rule rather quickly.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Frank.** 

### 20 **MR. STANONIK: Okay, 75 days for** 

### 21 **NOPRs, right? All right. I'm just reacting.** 

### 22 **We've seen quite a few notices from DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 lately. Much shorter period. Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. SACHS: Harvey Sachs, ACEEE.** 

### 3 **Frank my dandelion was turned off. Can you** 

### 4 **repeat that remark about wanting a shorter** 

### 5 **public review period?** 

### 6 **(Laughter.)** 

### 7 **MR. SACHS: I also -- Harvey** 

### 8 **Sachs. Again, I want to come back to my prior** 

### 9 **comment that we have at least three separate** 

### 10 **incentive programs or recognition programs at** 

### 11 **high level. Energy Star most efficient which** 

### 12 **may not cover boilers, yet. It does.** 

### 13 **The top ten U.S.A. for the very** 

### 14 **most efficient and the efforts that Consortium** 

### 15 **for Energy Efficiency to recognize high** 

### 16 **performing products, it's very important to** 

### 17 **the community to let these people know what** 

### 18 **the current status is, know where there may be** 

### 19 **anomalies in reported results now and the date** 

### 20 **by which it is expected that this will be** 

### 21 **resolved.** 

### 22 **I realize this may not be a legal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 responsibility and we're certainly prepared to**  

### 2 **help with it, but it does seem to be really** 

### 3 **important with a few million dollars hither** 

### 4 **and yon at stake. Thank you.** 

### 5 **MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, this is** 

### 6 **Ashley from DOE. I think that we've actively** 

### 7 **started those discussions. We probably have** 

### 8 **not hit every one, but we did proactively** 

### 9 **start that.** 

### 10 **MR. SACHS: Thank you.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks to all. Yet** 

### 12 **another invitation for final remarks, perhaps** 

### 13 **closing remarks as we move towards closure** 

### 14 **here. Okay, then thanks to all of you for** 

### 15 **participating. This meeting on test** 

### 16 **procedures is now concluding. Thanks to the** 

### 17 **webinar participants for joining us. We're** 

### 18 **going to adjourn now until 11 o'clock as** 

### 19 **reflected in the - you want to start earlier?** 

### 20 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So as noted in the** 

### 21 **Federal Registers notice, the framework** 

### 22 **meeting was going to dovetail off of this.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. CYMBALSKY: So we will roll** 

### 3 **right into the framework meeting.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Right now?** 

### 5 **MR. CYMBALSKY: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, I guess we'll** 

### 7 **start immediately then. Okay, 15 minutes.** 

### 8 **It's now 9:30 which means we'll resume at 9:45** 

### 9 **and at that point we will begin to conduct the** 

### 10 **Framework for Residential Boilers meeting.** 

### 11 **Let me remind you, you must wear** 

### 12 **this badge visibly if you're in the Forrestal** 

### 13 **Building. If you go to the coffee shop,** 

### 14 **please go quickly. It's on the ground floor.** 

### 15 **Go to the elevator bank, ground floor, hang a** 

### 16 **left, and it's right over here. And restrooms** 

### 17 **are at both ends of the hall.** 

### 18 **Thanks for a good start on the** 

### 19 **day. We'll see you back here at 9:45 to** 

### 20 **resume.** 

### 21 **(Whereupon, at 9:30 a.m., the** 

### 22 **meeting above-entitled matter was concluded.)**

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32 A above-entitled

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### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37 0 089 1:10 1 1 15:1 1000 1:10 103 13:10,10 103-1993 11:6 11 8:3 30:18 12 3:6 13 1:8 4:9 12:14 15 31:7 1975 10:10 1993 13:10 1997 11:5 1998 11:8 2 2 15:20 2007 10:19 11:10 2010 11:8 2012 21:4 2013 1:8 4:9 11:17 12:15,19 22 12:15 26:1 25 3:8 3 3 8:4 4 4 3:2 11:17 12:5 15:1 4th 12:116 62301 11:14,16 7 75 28:20 75-day 28:13 8 8E 1:10 9 9 3:4 9.10 13:10 14:6,14 15:13,14,21 16:6 16:16,21 17:3 9:00 1:11 9:01 4:2 9:30 31:8,21 9:45 31:8,19NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 38

Test Procedures for Residential Furnaces and Boilers

US DOE

03-13-13

Washington, DC