Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 1

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND RENEWABLE ENERGY BUILDING TECHNOLOGIES PROGRAM

NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING PUBLIC MEETING: RESIDENTIAL DEHUMIDIFIER TEST PROCEDURES DOCKET NO.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W. Washington, D.C.

Friday, June 13, 2014 9:06 a.m.

Reported by: Christine Allen, Capital Reporting CompanyCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FACILITATOR: 3 Doug Brookman 4 DOE REPRESENTATIVES: 5 Ashley Armstrong 6 Bryan Berringer 7 Elizabeth Kohl 8 Doug Rawald Gen. Counsel 9 INDUSTRY PARTICIPANTS: 10 John Bloemer 11 Aprilaire 12 Brice Bowley GE Appliances 13 Jennifer Cleary 14 AHAM 15 Rehan Ehsan AHAM 16 Elizabeth Noll 17 Natural Resources Defense Council 18 Via Webinar: 19 Lacy Aliff 20 Mizanur Chowdhury CSA Group 21 Kevin Churchill 22 IntertekCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) 2 Via Webinar (Cont'd): 3 Rachel Cluett ACEEE 4 Ashley Cocita 5 CSA Group 6 Lauren Mattison Cadmus Group 7 Joanna Mauer 8 Standards ASAP 9 Sarah Medepalli ICFI 10 Renata Mortazavi 11 NRCAN 12 Judd Smith CSA Group 13 Matt Snyder 14 Intertek 15 Yoolanda Williams GE 16 Linda Wilson 17 New York Attorney General's Office 18 Ed Wuesthoff Friedrich 19 Daniel Young 20 Energy Solution 21 22Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) 2 CONSULTANTS: 3 Nicole Buccitelli Navigant 4 Camilla Dunham Whitehead 5 LBNL 6 Andrew Jean-Louis Navigant 7 ChunChun Ni 8 LBNL 9 Judith Reich Navigant 10 Nadav Singerman 11 Navigant 12 Troy Watson Navigant 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 5 1 A G E N D A 2 Page 3 1. Welcome 6 4 2. Introductions 7 5 3. Regulatory History 15 6 4. Covered Products 16 7 5. Test Procedure Amendments 19 8 7. Compliance 9 9 8. Closing Remarks 96 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (9:06 a.m.) 3 MR. BROOKMAN: We have a lot of content 4 today, so I'm going to get us going. There may be 5 a few individuals who will be coming in late, but 6 we will make sure they get caught up. 7 Let's start. You all ready? Yes? Good 8 morning, everyone. Welcome. This is the Notice 9 of Proposed Rulemaking Public Meeting on 10 Residential Dehumidifier Test Procedures. 11 Today is June 13, 2014 here at the 12 Department of Energy at the Forrestal Building in 13 Washington, D.C. My name is Doug Brookman from 14 Public Solutions in Baltimore. 15 We are going to start this morning with 16 welcoming remarks by Bryan Berringer. 17 MR. BERRINGER: Hello. This is Bryan 18 Berringer from the Department of Energy. I just 19 want to thank everybody for coming in person and 20 those on the webinar. I understand we have about 21 ten people on the webinar today. Again, we hope 22 to have a good discussion today, and again, thankCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 7 1 you for your participation. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Bryan. Let's 3 start with doing introductions. You can get used 4 to turning these microphones both on and off. The 5 little green light illuminates the name and 6 organizational affiliation. 7 MR. BLOEMER: John Bloemer with 8 Aprilaire. 9 MR. BOWLEY: Brice Bowley, General 10 Electric. 11 MS. NOLL: Elizabeth Noll, NRDC. 12 MR. EHSAN: Rehan Ehsan, AHAM. 13 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary with AHAM. 14 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Andrew Jean-Louis, 15 Navigant. 16 MR. SINGERMAN: Nadav Singerman, 17 Navigant. 18 MS. KOHL: Betsy Kohl, DOE General 19 Counsel. 20 MR. RAWALD: Doug Rawald, Department of 21 Energy, Office of General Counsel. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: Ashley Armstrong, DOE.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 8 1 MS. REICH: Judy Reich, Navigant. 2 MR. WATSON: Troy Watson, Navigant. 3 MS. NI: ChunChun Ni, LBNL. 4 MS. DUNHAM-WHITEHEAD: Camilla Dunham5 Whitehead, LBNL. 6 MS. BUCCITELLI: Nicole Buccitelli, 7 Navigant. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks to all 9 of you for joining us and for being on time. We 10 have a full packet of information that we will be 11 going through as the day progresses. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to do a very 13 brief agenda review. You can see on page two of 14 this packet, immediately following this agenda 15 review, there will be a few introductory slides by 16 the Department of Energy. There is an opportunity 17 for anybody that wishes to, to make introductory 18 remarks, brief, summary comments about issues that 19 may be important to you at this time. 20 Following from there, we will dive into 21 the content in this packet, the regulatory 22 history, go from there and cover the products, goCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 9 1 from there to considering test procedure 2 amendments. 3 We will take a break mid-morning or so, 4 10:30, 10:45, whenever we get there. Following 5 the mid-morning break, we will talk about 6 compliance. Again, at the end of the day, at the 7 end of the morning, I should say, before lunch, we 8 will have an opportunity for additional remarks, 9 closing remarks. Anything that hasn't been 10 covered sufficiently during the course of the 11 morning session. 12 That's the general plan. Questions and 13 comments on the agenda? 14 (No response.) 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Seeing none, I would ask 16 if you would, please speak one at a time, say your 17 name for the record each time you speak. There 18 will be a complete transcript of this meeting. If 19 you could be concise to share the air time, keep 20 the focus here. If your cell phones are not on 21 silent mode at this point, please turn them to 22 silent mode. Limit the side bar conversations.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 10 1 These microphones work pretty well but 2 they have to be kind of close to your face, we 3 have found. As I said, there will be a complete 4 transcript of this meeting available. 5 Webinar participants, the Department of 6 Energy is trying hard to make certain that these 7 meetings are accessible via the Web. They have 8 been working fairly well recently. Please turn 9 your telephones on mute and raise your hand in the 10 software package to be recognized to speak, and we 11 ought to be able to hear you in the room once you 12 unmute your phone and try to speak to us. We will 13 try to include you in this conversation. 14 I think that is the bulk of my overview 15 stuff. There are a few introductory slides that 16 Bryan Berringer is going to cover. 17 MR. BERRINGER: Again, thank you for 18 your participation today. As you can see, there 19 is a little bit different agenda, a couple of 20 little items here that is not on handout, a couple 21 of little edits there. 22 Right now, we have gone throughCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 11 1 introductions, and we just want to give people an 2 opportunity also near the end if there are 3 additional items for discussion, that we can do 4 that about 11:45. 5 We have talked about the Webinar. 6 People on the Webinar, we will give you an 7 opportunity when we have time for discussion if 8 you need to make a comment. Please, while you are 9 on the Webinar, please have your phones on mute. 10 Again, the purpose of this meeting is 11 basically to talk about the test procedure for 12 dehumidifiers, what changes we have made based on 13 comments. We invite comments on the Notice of 14 Proposed Rulemaking that was published last month, 15 in May, and discuss next steps in the rulemaking. 16 Again, we want to invite participants to 17 provide summary comments or statements and raise 18 any additional issues for discussion. This isn't 19 just the topics that we have on the agenda, but if 20 you have other items that you would like to 21 discuss about the test procedure or 22 clarifications, we will give you an opportunity toCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 12 1 do that. 2 Just a little bit about the history, 3 again, where we are at. Basically, with the test 4 procedure, it is two process steps. The NOPR 5 stage is where we are now. Again, the NOPR is 6 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, published or issued 7 on May 2, but published in the Federal Register on 8 May 21. Obviously, today, Friday 13, we are having 9 the meeting to discuss these topics. 10 The comments on the NOPR or Notice of 11 Proposed Rulemaking from interested parties, again 12 as Doug mentioned, we're going to have transcripts 13 available that will go into the public record. We 14 are also requesting written comments be submitted 15 by August 4. Your comments today will be part of 16 the record and any written comments you provide, 17 and DOE will review and consider all the comments. 18 Right now, as far as the next steps after we 19 analyze the comments, we will do a final rule. We 20 are anticipating doing that in January 2015, in 21 about six or seven months. 22 At this time, if there is anybody in theCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 13 1 room, Doug can acknowledge you by raising your 2 hand, if you have opening remarks that you would 3 like to present at this time, this is the 4 opportunity. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Jen Cleary. 6 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary. We just 7 wanted to thank DOE for issuing this Notice. We 8 think it is really important to clarify this test 9 procedure, and as the Department knows, AHAM 10 conducted recently a round robin on the 11 dehumidifier test procedure. We're working also 12 on analyzing what clarifications might be 13 necessary. 14 We certainly plan to submit detailed 15 written comments, not only responding to DOE's 16 proposals, but also maybe making some of our own 17 based on that round robin to the extent that it's 18 not already covered in here, and many of them 19 actually are. 20 We really look forward to continuing to 21 work together with the Department to make this 22 test procedure as clear as it can be.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 14 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Jennifer. 2 Other comments? 3 (No response.) 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional? 5 Okay. Let's go right into the content. 6 MR. BERRINGER: Is there anyone from the 7 Webinar that had any comments before we move on? 8 (No response.) 9 MR. BERRINGER: All right. Thank you. 10 MR. BERRINGER: The next slide is just 11 talking about issues for discussion. We typically 12 have a note box or issue box here. This is the 13 opportunity where DOE welcomes information 14 concerning the proposed test procedure for 15 dehumidifiers, whether invited by the box or not, 16 commenters/stakeholders are welcome to comment on 17 any part of the analysis, and again, on other 18 issues. 19 Basically, these issues are found in the 20 Notice of Proposed Rulemaking that we are going to 21 talk about today, these comment boxes. It can be 22 found in Section E where it says "PublicCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 15 1 Participation," and where it says "Issues on which 2 the Department seeks comments." 3 We will step through all the nine topics 4 that were addressed in the NOPR, and again, if you 5 have additional issues that you would like to 6 discuss, we will have an opportunity to do that. 7 Again, the comment period ends on August 8 4, 11:59 p.m. 9 Any questions so far about what we are 10 doing here? 11 (No response.) 12 MR. BERRINGER: I will talk a little bit 13 about the regulatory history. Basically, in 14 December 2006 we did a test procedure at Appendix 15 X, which established measuring active mode for 16 energy use. 17 In October of 2012, we had the addition 18 of Appendix X1, measuring standby mode and the off 19 mode energy use. In February of this year, 2014, 20 there was removal of the obsolete Appendix X, and 21 we re-designated Appendix X1 as X. 22 In this NOPR, DOE proposes to amend andCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 16 1 re-designate Appendix X as well as a new Appendix 2 X1. 3 Any questions about that? 4 (No response.) 5 At this time, I want to turn it over to Nadav 6 Singerman from Navigant to discuss the covered 7 products. 8 MR. SINGERMAN: Thanks, Bryan. I first 9 want to begin the discussion regarding the 10 products that DOE is proposing to be covered under 11 this rule. 12 EPCA defines a dehumidifier as "A self13 contained, electrically operated, mechanically 14 encased assembly" that consists of a refrigerated 15 surface or cooled surface, which is often an 16 evaporator, or refrigeration system, an air 17 circulating fan, and means for collecting 18 condensate. 19 DOE has proposed to continue adopting 20 this definition, although to add an exclusion of 21 portable air conditioners and room air 22 conditioners.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 17 1 DOE is also proposing to clarify a few 2 product types that fall under this definition for 3 dehumidifiers. The first is portable 4 dehumidifiers, which is designed to operate with 5 the conditioned space, without any ducting 6 attached to it, although sometimes they do have 7 optional duct attachments. 8 Another type is whole-home 9 dehumidifiers, which are designed to be installed 10 with ducting, and deliver conditioned dehumidified 11 air to one or more locations throughout the 12 living space. 13 A third type is a refrigerant-desiccant 14 dehumidifier, which is a subset of whole-home 15 dehumidifiers, and these dehumidifiers remove 16 moisture both through a desiccant material as well 17 as a refrigeration system. 18 MR. BLOEMER: (Off microphone.) 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Why don't you wait for 20 the comment box? 21 MR. SINGERMAN: DOE has also identified 22 another type of dehumidifier that is a convertibleCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 18 1 dehumidifier that would meet both the portable and 2 the whole-home dehumidifier definitions through 3 the use of an optional ducting kit. 4 DOE is proposing that convertible 5 dehumidifiers be tested according to both product 6 categories, and would have to meet any potential 7 standards for both portable and whole-home 8 dehumidifiers. 9 DOE is welcoming any comments on the 10 proposed definitions for portable, whole-home, and 11 refrigerant-desiccant dehumidifiers, requesting 12 any comments on whether there are additional 13 product types that should be considered that would 14 be consistent with the statutory definition for 15 the dehumidifiers. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: And any clarifications on 17 definitions as well. John? 18 MR. BLOEMER: John Bloemer with 19 Aprilaire. Your definition of a dehumidifier with 20 the refrigerated surface, an electric motor, which 21 is basically a compressor, and an air circulating 22 fan, is pretty broad. You made the statement thatCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 19 1 you are purposely excluding portable air 2 conditioners and whole-home air conditioners? 3 MR. SINGERMAN: The definition itself, 4 what we have on the slide, is the EPACT 5 definition, which doesn't necessarily exclude 6 portable air conditioners and room conditioners. 7 However, in the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, we 8 included specific exclusions for those two 9 products. 10 MR. BLOEMER: Okay. That goes to the 11 whole-home dehumidifier, because the way this is 12 written, you're singling out a method of whole13 home humidity control, where air conditioners 14 themselves are a method of whole-home 15 dehumidification control. Some of them have modes 16 of dehumidification control. 17 You're singling out a product that other 18 products that do the same function in the whole19 home application are not subject to the same-- 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Test procedure? 21 MR. BLOEMER: Test procedure. 22 MS. ARMSTRONG: This is Ashley from DOE.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 20 1 While your point is they are not subject to the 2 same test procedure at least under this proposal, 3 they are separate covered products. 4 At least we have proposed to cover 5 portable air conditioners and we do cover central 6 air conditioner units. They are just separate and 7 accounted for separately. 8 MR. BLOEMER: They have their own test 9 procedure, but they are not tested as a 10 dehumidification unit or humidity control unit. 11 They are tested as an air conditioner or 12 temperature control unit. 13 The products that we sell as whole-home 14 dehumidifiers have the sole purpose of controlling 15 humidity in the home. You are subjecting those 16 products to a separate standard that competing 17 products are not subjected to. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So, I guess what is your 19 ask? 20 MR. BLOEMER: Well, my ask is right now, 21 at the end of this, the whole-home dehumidifier is 22 a separate product category unto itself. RightCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 21 1 now what is going on is we are extending a test 2 procedure for a portable unit to a whole-home unit 3 that is much more complex. 4 The analogy would be a space heater is 5 similar to a furnace. Whole-home humidity control 6 is a very complex issue and has multiple ways of 7 solving the solution. 8 Although we support some of the stuff 9 that's in here and we would support a separate 10 type of standard, and we would also ask the DOE to 11 possibly fund some research going on in AHAM to 12 better understand humidity control models. 13 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. Just to clarify, 14 I think what this test procedure is doing, at 15 least the proposal, is proposing a separate method 16 of test for whole-home dehumidifiers. 17 To the extent you have comments on what 18 that method should look like, especially in 19 response to our proposal, we welcome those today. 20 That is what today is all about. 21 MR. BLOEMER: Yes, and my comment to be 22 on the record is to take this out of this proposalCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 22 1 as it is today. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: As we go along, if there 4 are more specifics to support your proposal, that 5 would be great. 6 MR. BLOEMER: Okay. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 8 related to definitions and these product types? 9 (No response.) 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Moving on. 11 MR. SINGERMAN: All right. Thank you. 12 Now we are going to be moving on to the 13 Appendix X clarifications that DOE is proposing in 14 this Notice. 15 MR. SINGERMAN: Before jumping into the 16 clarifications themselves, I'm just going to give 17 an overview of the test procedure in Appendix X. 18 The first part is an active mode test. This test 19 is conducted in accordance with AHAM's DH-1-2008 20 test procedure for dehumidifiers. The result of 21 this test procedure is two metrics. One is a 22 product capacity, which is in units of pints ofCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 23 1 condensate collected per day, and energy factor, 2 which is in units of liters of condensate 3 collected per kilowatt hour of energy consumed. 4 Another part of the test procedure is 5 the standby mode and off mode. This test includes 6 the inactive mode, off mode, and off cycle mode. 7 The energy consumption from these modes is 8 aggregated into the annual combined low power mode 9 energy consumption. 10 Appendix X also includes an integrated 11 energy factor which incorporates the annual 12 combined low power mode energy consumption into 13 the EF metric to create the IEF metric. 14 DOE is proposing a number of 15 clarification amendments to Appendix X. All of 16 these clarifications will also be reflected in 17 Appendix X1. DOE doesn't expect that any of these 18 clarifications to Appendix X would change the test 19 results. 20 The first clarifications are regarding 21 definitions. DOE is proposing a definition for 22 "dehumidification mode," which is a type of activeCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 24 1 mode, in which a dehumidifier has activated the 2 main moisture removal function in accordance with 3 a humidistat or a humidity sensor, and has either 4 activated the refrigeration system or has just 5 activated the fan or blower without activating the 6 refrigeration system. 7 Another definition that DOE is proposing 8 is "product capacity." To clarify what that 9 means, it's a measure of the ability of the 10 dehumidifier to remove moisture from its 11 surroundings, and product capacity is measured in 12 pints of condensate collected per 24 hours of 13 operation under the specified ambient conditions 14 in Appendix X. DOE seeks any comments on the 15 proposed definitions for "dehumidification mode" 16 and "product capacity." 17 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 18 MR. BLOEMER: John Bloemer. On the fan 19 activation mode, again, in whole-house 20 applications, it's very confusing, and activation 21 is done for multiple reasons. Some products will 22 activate whole-house fans for proper airCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 25 1 circulation throughout the home and deliver other 2 IAQ and temperature averaging properties. 3 There needs to be clarification on what 4 the fan is, is the fan the unit, the fan inside 5 the unit, the fan that might be controlled by the 6 dehumidifier and activating a whole-house fan, 7 basically the HVAC fan. If you're going to 8 consider the HVAC fan, there is going to be 9 multiple variables as to what that fan is, what 10 type of energy it is using, and its design. 11 There are also products on the market 12 that will use the fan inside the unit to sample 13 air, to make sure a reading is taken, but they 14 will also take opportunities when the HVAC fan is 15 running to sample the air, so it operates in both 16 modes. That has to be considered in the test 17 procedure as to what fan energy you are truly 18 measuring and how you are measuring it. 19 MR. SINGERMAN: Thanks for your comment. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, John. Doug? 21 MR. RAWALD: John, you used the term 22 "IAQ." Did you mean "indoor air quality?" IsCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 26 1 that what you were saying? 2 MR. BLOEMER: Yeah. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments on 4 these definitions? 5 (No response.) 6 MR. SINGERMAN: Thank you. DOE is also 7 proposing some clarifications regarding the 8 psychrometer. The current test procedure in 9 Appendix X doesn't provide specific instructions 10 for how to place the psychrometer for 11 dehumidifiers with multiple air intake grilles. 12 These multiple air intake grilles could be on one 13 surface or one side of the unit, but could be on 14 multiple sides as well. 15 In order to resolve this issue, DOE 16 considered two different options. The first was 17 to use one single psychrometer or sampling tree at 18 a location as close as possible to one foot in 19 front of all intake grilles. 20 DOE considered a second option which 21 would be to place a separate psychrometer or a 22 separate sampling tree one foot in front of eachCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 27 1 intake grille. For one unit, there could be 2 multiple sampling trees monitoring the air. 3 DOE believes that the second option 4 offers improved reproducibility and only minimally 5 increases the test burden, and is therefore 6 proposing option two. 7 DOE also proposes to clarify that a 8 psychrometer can only be connected to one 9 dehumidifier during testing. For a unit with 10 multiple intake grilles, you could have a single 11 psychrometer with multiple sampling trees that 12 would be ducted to that one psychrometer. 13 However, one psychrometer cannot be monitoring 14 conditions for two different dehumidifiers. 15 DOE welcomes comment on the test burden 16 associated with the requirements for multiple 17 sampling trees or psychrometers for dehumidifiers 18 with multiple air inlets, and also the test burden 19 associated with connecting only one test unit per 20 psychrometer. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: No comments on testing 22 burden?Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 28 1 (No response.) 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 3 MR. SINGERMAN: Thanks. DOE is also 4 proposing clarifications regarding the condensate 5 collection method. DOE is aware that some 6 dehumidifier buckets are not large enough to hold 7 all the condensate that can be collected during 8 the six hour test period. 9 What often happens is when the bucket 10 fills up during the test, a unit will either 11 cycle off and turn off the compressor or will 12 activate an internal pump to empty the internal 13 bucket, and this would disrupt the test procedure. 14 DOE is proposing a number of 15 clarifications to resolve this issue. The first 16 is that dehumidifiers with gravity drain 17 capabilities should be connected to a 18 substantially closed vessel and that vessel would 19 be placed on a scale to measure the collected 20 condensate. 21 For dehumidifiers that don't have a 22 drain capability, the automatic shutoff featureCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 29 1 would be disabled and any condensate that 2 overflows out of the internal condensate bucket 3 would be collected in a covered pan that would be 4 below the unit, and both the pan and the unit 5 would be sitting on a scale to measure the 6 condensate collected during the test. 7 DOE also proposes to clarify that any 8 internal pumps should not be used during the test 9 unless the pump is activated by default by the 10 manufacturer. 11 DOE is requesting comment on the 12 clarifications regarding the condensation 13 collection requirements for those units with and 14 without drain capabilities as well as internal 15 pumps. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? Ashley 17 Armstrong. 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I will say--this is 19 Ashley from DOE. If you do agree with the 20 proposal, it is helpful for DOE for you to say 21 that. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: John?Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 30 1 MR. BLOEMER: No, I agree with it. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Affirmative 3 comments are very useful so the Department knows 4 they are on track; yes. It is helpful. Thank 5 you. Additional comments? Jen? 6 MS. CLEARY: We will provide affirmative 7 or non-affirmative comments. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Affirmative is always 9 welcome. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Any additional 11 comments here before we move on? 12 (No response.) 13 MR. SINGERMAN: All right, thank you. 14 DOE is also proposing clarifications regarding the 15 control settings for the dehumidifier during 16 testing. Appendix X currently does not specify 17 the fan speed setting or the relative humidity 18 setting during the dehumidification mode test. 19 A commenter has recommended that units 20 with a continuous on function should be tested 21 with that feature enabled during testing, and 22 units without a continuous on feature should beCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 31 1 tested with the lowest humidity setting possible, 2 as available. 3 A commenter has recommended that the 4 fans be set at the highest possible allowable by 5 the unit. 6 DOE is proposing to adopt these 7 recommendations as requirements for the 8 dehumidification mode test. DOE believes they 9 correspond with the highest energy use, and also 10 are consistent with industry practice as DOE has 11 observed. 12 DOE welcomes comments on the proposed 13 control settings for the dehumidification testing, 14 which would require selecting continuous operation 15 if available, and otherwise, the lowest relative 16 humidity setting. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 18 MR. BLOEMER: When the DOE creates 19 these, how long do they typically stay in place? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: You're asking how long 21 do test procedures typically-- 22 MR. BLOEMER: Yes.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 32 1 MS. ARMSTRONG: We're required to review 2 our test procedures once every seven years. That 3 being said, we can opt to do it earlier if we know 4 there's an issue or clarifications that are 5 needed. At the very least, we are required to do 6 it by statute once every seven years. 7 MR. BLOEMER: The reason I ask is 8 looking at whole-house dehumidification, how are 9 you going to accommodate products that have either 10 modulating or variable speed capabilities that are 11 on the market today or going to be on the market 12 in the future? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm going to say two 15 things. One is we're going to get to the proposal 16 for whole-homes later today. Two, we also have in 17 our regs generally speaking waiver provisions. 18 If you feel there is a product who is 19 required to be tested pursuant to the DOE test 20 procedure and the DOE test procedure would be 21 unrepresentative of its energy use, you can apply 22 for a waiver, which is the consideration of anCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 33 1 alternative method of test for that unit, if it 2 has a new technology or innovative method, and the 3 test procedure does not accurately account for it. 4 Also, we would welcome comments to the 5 extent that you do not feel the proposal later 6 today addresses those technologies on how we might 7 do such things. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: That's actually helpful. 9 Doug Rawald. 10 MR. RAWALD: I just want to reiterate 11 what Ashley said at the end, which is it's very 12 helpful to us if you anticipate things that we are 13 not seeing from your point of view as an industry 14 member to tell us what they are, tell us how to 15 address them and how to do that, especially 16 forthcoming technology. 17 If we can avoid the need for people to 18 apply for waivers by anticipating things now, 19 that's helpful. Your comments to us will be 20 extremely helpful in us avoiding that problem. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. You see the 22 comment box. We're interested in any additionalCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 34 1 thoughts on control settings. Jen Cleary. 2 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary. We agree 3 with DOE's proposal. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Jennifer. 5 Yes, Brice? 6 MR. BOWLEY: Brice Bowley, GE. Yes, we 7 also agree with the test procedure proposals for 8 control settings. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. We're 10 moving on. 11 MR. SINGERMAN: Okay. That concludes 12 the Appendix X clarifications that DOE is 13 proposing. I believe we have a break set here in 14 the agenda. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's keep going. 16 MR. SINGERMAN: Okay. We will now move 17 on to the proposed provisions for Appendix X1, the 18 new Appendix X1. 19 MR. SINGERMAN: DOE is proposing to 20 incorporate some methodology that would result in 21 a more accurate and representative active mode 22 test for dehumidifiers. There are three mainCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 35 1 areas that DOE is proposing regarding the test 2 conditions, whole-home dehumidifier test set3 up, test conduct, as well as a fan-only mode test. 4 For the dehumidification mode, the 5 current test conditions are 80 degree Fahrenheit 6 dry-bulb and 69.6 Fahrenheit wet-bulb temperature, 7 which correlates with a 60 percent relative 8 humidity. 9 In response to the framework notice and 10 public meeting, commenters noted that there was 11 variability in both the geographic installations 12 for dehumidifiers as well as locations where they 13 are installed within the living space. 14 Commenters also noted that the test 15 procedure conditions are higher, both temperature 16 and humidity levels are higher than those that are 17 often seen in the field. 18 Commenters noted that frost conditions 19 are not addressed by the test procedure 20 conditions. Frost often happens at less than 65 21 degrees and is typical in a basement installation. 22 Commenters also noted that AHAM DH-1-Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 36 1 2008 also includes a low temperature test at a 65 2 degree Fahrenheit dry-bulb temperature with a 60 3 percent relative humidity. 4 DOE looked at some initial information 5 which suggested that basement temperatures where 6 dehumidifiers are often installed ranges between 7 55 and 75 degrees Fahrenheit dry-bulb. DOE found 8 this in the ORNL Building Foundation Design 9 Handbook and Energy Center of Wisconsin Field 10 Study. 11 Because of this large range, DOE went 12 ahead and tried to identify a representative test 13 condition that would represent dehumidifiers' 14 operation in the field. 15 DOE looked at both climate data and 16 RECS usage data. First, DOE looked for the usage 17 by location, and determined regions and sub18 regions and states within those sub-regions that 19 represent primary dehumidifier use, and DOE found 20 this in the RECS 2009 survey data. 21 DOE then moved on and looked at ambient 22 conditions. DOE found average hourly ambientCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 37 1 temperature, relative humidity, and ground 2 temperature at 40 inches below the surface, which 3 would represent a basement installation, and this 4 was state by state, and found this from the NCDC 5 and NOAA data for 2012. 6 DOE then removed all the hours that 7 would not represent dehumidifier use, which was 8 all hours below 60 percent relative humidity. 9 DOE then combined the hourly state level 10 data to determine an average monthly 11 representative condition for each sub-region, and 12 then DOE combined using a weighted average the 13 sub-regions into regions, and then a national 14 average for monthly ambient conditions. 15 DOE then combined these monthly climate 16 data with AHAM's monthly usage estimates that were 17 submitted in 2006 and calculated an overall 18 national average conditions for regions that 19 represent the majority of dehumidifier use. 20 The result of this analysis was that the 21 national average annual ambient temperature was 64 22 degrees Fahrenheit and the national average annualCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 38 1 soil temperature was 65.2 degrees Fahrenheit. 2 Based on that analysis, DOE estimated 3 and believes that 65 degree Fahrenheit is the most 4 representative dry-bulb temperature for 5 dehumidification mode testing. DOE notes that 6 this is consistent with the AHAM's DH-1-2008 low 7 temperature test, which is at 65 degrees dry-bulb 8 and 60 percent relative humidity. 9 DOE performed another analysis that 10 looked at the number of annual operating hours 11 that would fall into different test conditions, 12 including tolerances. So, for 65 and 80, DOE 13 compared the two, and found that many more hours 14 fell into the 65 degree bin than the 80 degree 15 test condition bin. 16 DOE is proposing 65 degrees Fahrenheit 17 as a representative dry-bulb temperature. 18 Alternatively, DOE considered a combined 19 approach that would look at both performance from 20 65 degrees dry-bulb and 80 degrees Fahrenheit dry21 bulb. Those would be combined using a weighted 22 average based on the number of hours that fallCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 39 1 into the different test conditions. 2 DOE is interested in any input on other 3 weighting factors besides what DOE has concluded, 4 and just notes there would be a significant 5 increase in test burden with this approach because 6 it would require two stabilization periods and two 7 six hour test periods. 8 DOE is proposing for whole-home 9 dehumidifiers that they also be tested at the same 10 test conditions for portables at 65 degrees dry11 bulb and 60 percent relative humidity. However, 12 alternatively, commenters did suggest that the 13 inlet air dry-bulb temperature for whole-home 14 dehumidifiers is often close to the home's 15 thermostat set point. 16 DOE looked at the RECS' data again and 17 found that the average indoor temperature for the 18 northeast and Midwest regions, which are those 19 with the primary dehumidifier use, was about 73 20 degrees Fahrenheit. 21 Therefore, DOE may consider requiring 22 that whole-home dehumidifiers, instead of beingCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 40 1 tested at 65 degrees be tested at 73 degrees dry2 bulb with 60 percent relative humidity. 3 This is the last slide in this section, 4 just to look at the performance impacts at these 5 different reduced temperatures. On the left we 6 have a table where DOE tested at both 80 and 65 7 degrees. We have portable and whole-home 8 dehumidifiers in there, separated out by product 9 class. 10 You can see that the class averages 11 ranged for a capacity reduction of about 36 to 53 12 percent, and 21 to 36 percent reduction for EF, 13 from 80 to 14 65. 15 DOE also performed some numerical 16 analysis to estimate what the performance would be 17 at 73 degrees for whole-home dehumidifiers and 18 found the average reduction in capacity from 80 to 19 73 was 16 percent reduction in capacity and 7 20 percent reduction in EF. 21 DOE welcomes all comments on the 22 revision and proposal to change the dry-bulbCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 41 1 ambient condition for dehumidification mode from 2 80 degrees to 65 degrees in the new Appendix X1, 3 and any comment on the associated impacts to the 4 IEF and the capacity. 5 In addition, DOE also welcomes input on 6 the alternate approach, which would combine the 7 performance of 80 and 65 degree test conditions, 8 and also the weighting factor that would be 9 associated with that approach. 10 DOE also seeks comment on the alternate 11 73 degrees test condition for whole-home 12 dehumidifiers that is more representative of the 13 residential thermostat settings. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments? John? 15 MR. BLOEMER: John Bloemer again. One 16 is absolutely we support and commend DOE for 17 bringing together a better rating condition of 18 products being rated at their normal use 19 condition. It is a breath of fresh air because up 20 to this point, we have been testing our products 21 at 80-60, which is from a market reason, and when 22 we compare it to something like a portable, it isCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 42 1 the only point of reference the community has, but 2 we would feel better rating our products at use 3 condition. 4 Also, the ASHRAE community would also 5 like that because it allows the building designers 6 to better monitor and estimate the energy use of 7 houses, the products that are going into the 8 house, and this has been a discussion among the 9 ASHRAE community, trying to pick a design 10 condition, and 73 is not far off of what we as an 11 organization kind of all agreed to. 12 The other thing I'd like to recommend is 13 if we go with the philosophy of designing it as 14 use conditions, possibly two rating points. In 15 other words, it will allow a manufacturer to 16 optimize a dehumidifier for a basement application 17 or a living space or other applications, instead 18 of trying to weight them, and we have to give up 19 one or the other, if we can guess the intended 20 application. 21 For whole-home, 73 is again a good 22 rating point, we feel, for these products. 73-60Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 43 1 percent RH. That is what we see. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, John. Brice? 3 MR. BOWLEY: Brice Bowley, GE. I guess 4 the one thing I have a little bit of concern about 5 with the 65 is just reproducibility of the test. 6 There is less water in the air. I expect there to 7 be more variation. A little bit of concern. 8 I know there are people already looking 9 at the variability of the dehum test procedure. I 10 just have some concern that the reduced moisture 11 will increase that variability. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you propose 13 something different? 14 MR. BOWLEY: I mean at the 80 degrees, 15 we do get--there is more moisture in the air, the 16 system does run more consistently. There are no 17 issues of freeze up. I think the 80 makes a much 18 easier test condition. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: DOE said they were trying 20 to get something close to the operating condition. 21 MR. BOWLEY: I understand; yes. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer Cleary.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 44 1 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary. AHAM 2 members are still reviewing this. We will provide 3 feedback in our written comments. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Doug Rawald. 5 MR. RAWALD: This is Doug Rawald. 6 Brice, is there a method that you would offer that 7 we can use to test at 80 degrees but still account 8 for what would actually be the operating 9 temperature? How could we do that? Could you 10 offer that in your comments possibly, think about 11 that and offer it in your written comments. 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks. John, 13 please. 14 MR. BLOEMER: I just wanted to add onto 15 Brice, we do test our products down to 60 and 65 16 degrees in our lab, and it is difficult, 17 especially in Madison, Wisconsin in the middle of 18 winter, getting that equipment operating. There 19 is a burden at 65 but it can be overcome, and when 20 it was 20 below this winter, there were days we 21 couldn't test. 22 (Laughter.)Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 45 1 MR. RAWALD: John, in your written 2 comments, if you could provide what is the cost of 3 trying to overcome those hurdles, and is that 4 something that would be an expensive thing or is 5 that something that is easily overcome by folks. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Doug. 7 MS. NOLL: This is Elizabeth Noll, NRDC. 8 NRDC supports the proposal to test at 65 degrees 9 and commends the Department for trying to pick a 10 point that represents the operating condition. 11 From our perspective, again, we are interested to 12 hear what manufacturers have to say on the two 13 temperature approach. It seems unduly burdensome, 14 but obviously not our point. 15 Again, on the 73 degrees, if that 16 reflects the operating conditions, that seems 17 reasonable, but again, when you're comparing the 18 whole-home and the portables that are going to be 19 tested together, they are going to have to do the 20 same test procedure, is that going to be a 21 challenge. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. JoannaCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 46 1 Mauer has a question or comment on line. Joanna, 2 unmute your phone and we will hope to hear you. 3 MS. MAUER: Can you hear me? 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, you're good. 5 MS. MAUER: Great. Just to echo 6 Elizabeth's comments, we really appreciate the 7 work that DOE conducted to investigate our 8 concerns regarding the ambient temperatures and 9 the current test procedure. We strongly support 10 the proposed change from 80 degrees to 65 for 11 portable dehumidifiers to better reflect field 12 conditions and to better ensure energy savings in 13 the field. We are still evaluating the ambient 14 temperatures for whole-home dehumidifiers, but it 15 looks like 73 degrees is a reasonable temperature 16 to reflect the conditions under which those 17 products operate. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, Joanna. 19 John, question? 20 MR. BLOEMER: In preparation for my 21 written comments, was DOE's intent to test 22 products at their intended use condition or whereCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 47 1 they are being used today? 2 The reason I ask that question is 3 something like a whole-home dehumidifiers, 4 ideally, to save energy in a home, we'd like 5 people setting their cooling set point to 78 6 degrees. If you went into homes today, you might 7 find an average of 73 because people are over 8 cooling to remove humidity. As we propose a 9 written comment both as an organization and 10 company, and as an organization inside ASHRAE, 11 would it better for us to think about what the 12 design condition is or the as used condition? 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: I think we urge-- 15 obviously, the Department is with you in promoting 16 just more efficient, better use of things and 17 their intended use. Having said that, I think our 18 test procedures should reflect how they are 19 actually used in the field. 20 I think we would appreciate comments 21 that would get to that answer and to the extent 22 you also want to submit comments if the intendedCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 48 1 use is different, we welcome those as well. 2 I think we are really trying to get 3 after how things are used in the field to give 4 people an indication of exactly that. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, John. That 6 was a good question. Jennifer Cleary. 7 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary. I just 8 had a question about how the testing was done for 9 the results that are on Slide 34. Did you do like 10 proposed X1 to proposed X1 with the only 11 difference being the temperature or was one X and 12 one X1? Can you tell us? 13 MR. SINGERMAN: I believe they were 14 mostly Appendix X1. However, I think the 15 psychrometer placement proposal might not have 16 been in place for this testing, but DOE doesn't 17 believe that would have changed the test results 18 significantly. 19 MS. CLEARLY: Okay. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Additional 21 questions or comments? 22 (No response.)Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 49 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 2 MR. SINGERMAN: Great, thank you. DOE 3 also addressed relative humidity test conditions. 4 Commenters were concerned with the current 60 5 percent relative humidity test conditions. They 6 indicated there are adverse health effects which 7 are minimized between 40 and 60, which are not 8 outside of that range. People generally do not 9 notice relative humidity fluctuations between 25 10 and 60 but may if it gets higher than 60. 11 Units in the Cadmus Group study had an 12 average setting of 60 percent relative humidity, 13 and that in a Wisconsin Energy Center study, 14 nearly half the units maintained a relative 15 humidity at less than 60 percent, and only five 16 were operated more than 60 percent. 17 Commenters recommended that the test 18 conditions for dehumidification mode be less than 19 60 percent relative humidity. 20 DOE performed some additional research 21 and reviewed a number of studies and standards. 22 DOE looked at ASHRAE 55's standard forCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 50 1 environmental conditions for human occupancy, an 2 OSHA Technical Manual, Cadmus Group, and a 3 Wisconsin Energy Center field study. DOE also 4 performed some metering study on its own, as well 5 as reviewing manufacturer literature. 6 As a result of this review, DOE found 7 that consumers typically use their dehumidifiers 8 to achieve a relative humidity between 50 and 55 9 percent. In order to operate continuously in 10 dehumidification mode, the ambient relative 11 humidity would have to be higher than that range, 12 so higher than 55 percent. 13 For a test with conditions fixed at 60 14 percent relative humidity, it would actually 15 represent a set point below 60. It would 16 represent a set point that would be between 50 and 17 55. 18 Therefore, DOE doesn't propose any 19 amendments to the 60 percent relative humidity 20 specification, and notes that the 60 percent 21 relative humidity specification is actually 22 consistent with the three ambient temperatureCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 51 1 tests in AHAM's DH-1-2008. 2 DOE seeks comment on the proposal to 3 maintain a 60 percent relative humidity for test 4 conditions in dehumidification mode, and just 5 notes that at the reduced 65 degree dry-bulb 6 temperature condition, it would correspond with 7 the 56.6 degrees Fahrenheit wet-bulb temperature. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 9 MR. BLOEMER: We would support the 60 10 percent. It is kind of where product we would 11 recommend turn on, absolutely home owners will run 12 them down for comfort. If you're using them just 13 for preservation, you can go a little bit higher 14 in our opinion. Sixty percent is kind of a good 15 number. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Brice? 17 MR. BOWLEY: I support the 60 percent as 18 well. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you; appreciate 20 that. Jennifer Cleary. 21 MS. CLEARY: Jennifer Cleary. We're 22 tentatively supporting maintaining it. I think weCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 52 1 are just doing testing to see how this corresponds 2 with some of the other proposals. Barring some 3 sort of unexpected result, we would support this 4 as well. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: In your written comments; 6 yes. 7 MS. CLEARY: Yes. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna Mauer, please 9 speak. 10 MS. MAUER: I'm just curious what 11 typical deadband regions are like for 12 dehumidifiers. In other words, if a consumer 13 selects an RH setting of say 50 percent, at what 14 RH level would the compressor turn on? 15 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 16 MR. BLOEMER: I can only speak for 17 really our products, and the answer is kind of 18 vague. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you do other than 20 whole-home? 21 MR. BLOEMER: We don't do portable. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: You do only whole-home?Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 53 1 MR. BLOEMER: We only do whole-home. 2 Our controls are designed for five percent 3 deadband, but we also have controls that were off 4 dew point and not RH. It varies depending upon 5 the sensors, the control algorithms, and what you 6 are really trying to control. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: I see. Do we have 8 someone who can answer the question with 9 portables? 10 MS. MAUER: Thank you. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice? 12 MR. BOWLEY: No, I don't have it off the 13 top of my head. I can look it up and provide it. 14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 15 Additional questions or comments here? 16 (No response.) 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We're moving on. 18 MR. SINGERMAN: All right. Thank you. 19 I am now going to pass it over to Andrew Jean20 Louis. He's going to talk about whole-home 21 dehumidifiers and fan-only mode. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I love the graphics here.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 54 1 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Thanks, Nadav, 2 appreciate it. Hi, everyone. Let's get started. 3 To start things off, whole-home 4 dehumidifiers are intended to be installed and 5 attached to a whole-home's ducted system. Some 6 distinguishing characteristics of whole-home 7 dehumidifiers include ducts that are attached to 8 both inlet and outlet air. Also, whole-home 9 dehumidifiers may have fresh air collars that 10 bring in air from outside the home to inside the 11 conditioned space. 12 Another distinguishing characteristic 13 would be a subset of whole-home dehumidifiers, 14 refrigerant-desiccant units, that have a 15 reactivation air stream with inlet and outlet that 16 also removes moisture in addition to the 17 refrigeration system. 18 The current test procedure does not 19 account for these field conditions that impose an 20 external static pressure on an unit, and in turn, 21 misrepresents actual capacity and efficiency. 22 DOE tested a sample of 13 whole-homeCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 55 1 units, including two refrigerant-desiccant units, 2 to investigate the test methods that would be 3 incorporated in Appendix X1 for ducted 4 installations. 5 These figures illustrate the differences 6 between your typical refrigeration only whole-home 7 dehumidifier on the left, where you have your 8 evaporator and condenser working together to 9 remove moisture, but to the right, you have a 10 slightly more complicated system that includes a 11 desiccant wheel that removes moisture on top of 12 the moisture that is removed by the evaporator. 13 I guess the difference here is that 14 desiccant wheel is removing vapor water while the 15 evaporator is removing liquid water. 16 DOE proposed a couple of definitions, 17 the first being for "process air," and that 18 would be the air supplied to the dehumidifier from 19 the dehumidified space, and discharged to the 20 dehumidified space after the moisture has been 21 removed by means of the refrigeration system. 22 The other definition would be forCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 56 1 "reactivation air," which is the air drawn from 2 unconditioned space, which is basically outside, 3 to remove moisture from the desiccant wheel of the 4 refrigerant-desiccant dehumidifier. That's 5 discharged to the unconditioned space, again, back 6 outside of the home. 7 Refrigerant-desiccant units require a 8 bit more care to get the right capacity 9 measurement because the water collected from a 10 refrigerant-desiccant unit doesn't represent the 11 entire amount of moisture removed from a home 12 system. 13 DOE proposes a calculation that 14 determines capacity through comparison of 15 psychrometric conditions in both the inlet and 16 outlet process air to determine how much water 17 or moisture is removed from the system. 18 This is just an illustration of that 19 calculation, which takes the absolute humidity and 20 the volumetric flow rates of both inlets and 21 outlets to compare, to get at that total moisture 22 removed. That would be looked at throughout theCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 57 1 whole entire test period. 2 To get at the difference between the 3 vapor calculation that DOE proposes and the 4 traditional capacity method, DOE investigated 5 several samples, and this table illustrates that 6 investigation. 7 For the most part, there is a pretty 8 clear correlation between the two methods, but 9 when you get to refrigerant-desiccant units, you 10 see there is a very large difference, like for 11 example, W7 or W12. There is a huge difference 12 between the two methods. That is because the 13 traditional method isn't capturing all the 14 moisture. 15 The results show that the refrigerant16 desiccant removes about a third or more of the 17 moisture by means of the desiccant or desiccant 18 wheel. 19 To aid in DOE's proposal, DOE reviewed 20 the test set up by the National Renewable Energy 21 Laboratory and its research on whole-home 22 dehumidifiers, and those reports are cited in theCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 58 1 NOPR. 2 Also, DOE referenced the Air Movement 3 and Control Association International, Inc. 4 standard, or AMCA Standard 210-07, to aid in the 5 development of the proposed duct length and sensor 6 placements. 7 Let's talk a little bit more about the 8 features of the whole-home dehumidifier. Fresh 9 air, like I mentioned before--actually, this is 10 new. Fresh air from the exterior of the air may 11 be brought into the home to improve the air 12 quality, and that would be brought in through an 13 additional inlet port, which is illustrated in 14 this image here. 15 The results for dehumidifiers connected 16 to this fresh air intake as opposed to not being 17 connected to it saw an average of a three percent 18 increase in capacity and four percent increase in 19 energy factor. 20 DOE proposes that these fresh air 21 collars be sealed during testing mainly due to the 22 added test burden they would incur because of theCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 59 1 extra test step you would need. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Rawald. 3 MR. RAWALD: We are going to go on for 4 quite a while without a comment box, so if anybody 5 has anything to say about anything that jumps out 6 as we are going through this, that would be 7 helpful. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you; appreciate 9 that. I saw a little movement on this side of the 10 room. I don't want to diminish anyone's capacity 11 to comment here. You want to comment? 12 MR. BLOEMER: Not right now. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We'll keep going 14 then. Thanks, Doug. 15 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Another effort to keep 16 testing burden to a minimum, DOE investigated 17 performance impacts of connecting only an 18 instrumented outlet duct versus monitoring 19 conditions in both inlet and outlet. This table 20 demonstrates that analysis. 21 Again, in an effort to keep test burden 22 to a minimum, DOE is proposing to only requireCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 60 1 outlet test ducts. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Elizabeth? 3 MS. NOLL: The inlet and outlet, how 4 does that compare with what manufacturers are 5 doing already? Do you have any sense of that? 6 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: In terms of testing? 7 MS. NOLL: Testing. 8 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: I will have to defer to 9 the manufacturers. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: John, do you want to 11 respond? 12 MR. BLOEMER: Your question was how do 13 we do it? 14 MS. NOLL: Yes. 15 MR. BLOEMER: We do it similar. We 16 bring in conditioned air and then measure pints 17 per day of the unit. It's very similar to what we 18 do today. 19 The comment I would have with the 20 ventilation duct, again, that's all part of the 21 inlet air, and depending on what the ventilation 22 air is, so opening and closing the duct really--ifCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 61 1 you're picking a rating condition, the inlet air 2 would have the same condition if you chose not to 3 close that duct off, in our opinion. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 5 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: I guess I will move on. 6 Some of the specifications for the test ducts, DOE 7 proposes that Figures 7A and 16 of AMCA 210-07 8 would provide conditions representative of normal 9 operation while requiring the fewest components. 10 Some of the duct lengths and sensor 11 placements are specified as a function of duct 12 diameter, as illustrated in the figures in the 13 NOPR. 14 Some of the highlights of those 15 specifications are a ten inch diameter. I guess 16 the majority of units covered so far have a ten 17 inch diameter but there are different diameters 18 that we will address a bit later. 19 The material of the test duct will be 20 comprised of galvanized mild steel, which is 21 commonly used in HVAC applications and typically 22 unaffected by moisture. Lastly, insulation, theCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 62 1 test duct would require an R value of at least 2 six, and the seams and edges of that insulation 3 sealed with tape. 4 I mentioned transition sections for 5 collars that don't have exactly ten inches. DOE 6 proposes the use of transition sections that allow 7 that connection. DOE referenced Section 5.2.1.3 8 of AMCA 210-07 for a maximum 7.5 angle for 9 convergent and 3.5 for divergent. 10 With the proposed ten inch diameter, you 11 would require at least 20 feet of straight ducting 12 to get laminar flow before hitting a sensor, and 13 that would require a very large test chamber, so 14 in an effort to keep burden to a minimum, DOE 15 proposes the use of flow straighteners, as 16 specified by AMCA 210-07, that would reduce the 17 duct length to a more manageable size. This is 18 just an illustration of the requirements for that 19 flow straightener. 20 The next couple of slides kind of 21 discuss the special requirements-- 22 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd like to see if weCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 63 1 have any comments on this. John? 2 MR. BLOEMER: I guess given that you 3 brought the point up of the current length of 20 4 feet, our test chamber would have a hard time 5 maintaining that. 6 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Right. 7 MR. BLOEMER: I guess the question I 8 have for the DOE is has anyone ever studied the 9 difference between testing that we do today, we 10 put the unit down in a room and condition the room 11 and bring the air in, versus all this stuff--I 12 don't know if there would be a difference in 13 performance or how the unit was measured with or 14 without the duct length requirement. 15 MR. BROOKMAN: Judy Reich. 16 MS. REICH: Judy Reich from Navigant. I 17 think the issue is the external static pressure 18 and if you were able to provide a means to achieve 19 that same external static pressure across the unit 20 with a shorter duct length while still ensuring 21 that the flow is sufficiently laminar coming into 22 the unit, that the test procedure is reproducible,Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 64 1 then that would be information we would be very 2 interested in. 3 MR. BLOEMER: Yeah, we do external 4 static pressure testing. We don't use that long a 5 length, and the reason is we have done enough 6 testing because we have filters at the inlet of 7 our unit, that the air is really evenly 8 distributed over the coil, so the air hitting the 9 coil, we feel, is evenly distributed. 10 The advantage of making it evenly 11 distributed at the duct work, we just don't 12 personally see it right now. That's why I asked 13 if someone has done some testing, that we may be 14 missing something. 15 MS. REICH: You know, I think we were 16 looking at industry accepted standards through the 17 AMCA procedures, so any information you have on 18 your approach would be of use. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Would you suggest your 20 method is more commonplace? 21 MR. BLOEMER: Since we're a fairly new 22 industry, I don't think there is commonplace.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 65 1 It's what we do today. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. This is an 3 interesting point. DOE is always trying to strike 4 a balance between accuracy and burden in a test 5 procedure. Additional comments here? 6 (No response.) 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional? 8 Okay. 9 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Okay. The next couple 10 of slides discuss some of the special sensors that 11 would be required for refrigerant-desiccants in 12 whole-home dehumidifiers because of that proposed 13 calculation. 14 The first would be a dry-bulb 15 temperature sensor, and DOE proposes to reference 16 Section 5.3.5 of ASHRAE Standard 41.1, which is 17 the centers of segmented-grids for dry-bulb 18 temperature sensors. 19 That proposal would require at least 20 four sections for the center to have a 21 thermocouple or temperature sensor be placed 22 within it. DOE further proposed that aCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 66 1 temperature be measured five inches upstream of 2 the inlet collar and 95 inches downstream of the 3 outlet collar. That is also in accordance with 4 AMCA 210-07. 5 The next sensor is relative humidity. 6 The relative humidity in these units will be 7 measured in both air streams, both the process 8 and reactivation, and for the process air, the 9 calculation would require both measurements in 10 inlet and outlet ducts and reactivation stream 11 would require only an inlet duct, just to make 12 sure the ambient conditions are as specified by 13 the test. 14 DOE considered two sets of options for 15 monitoring relative humidity. The first being a 16 chilled mirror hygrometer. The advantage there is 17 it is accurate up to two percent relative humidity 18 at 65 degrees dry-bulb and 60 percent relative 19 humidity. However, they are costly to procure and 20 to maintain because of the frequent cleaning 21 that's involved. 22 The second option was an aspiratingCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 67 1 psychrometer, which is comprised of two 2 thermometers that detect both dry-bulb and wet3 bulb temperature. The fancy ones can be as 4 accurate up to one percent, and these are already 5 commonly used for portable dehumidifier testing. 6 DOE proposed the use of an aspirating 7 psychrometer due to its lower testing burden 8 compared to that of chilled mirror hygrometers. 9 Do we have a comment here? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 11 MR. BLOEMER: One of the things we 12 haven't worked through and maybe we need some 13 clarification, in the test standard today, they 14 talk about temperature measurement accuracy and RH 15 measurement accuracy, and the two actually aren't 16 the same and they counteract each other. 17 For example, we talk about one 18 percent accuracy of RH sensors and .1 percent 19 accuracy of temperature sensors. The resulting RH 20 between those is different. Somehow, we need to 21 clarify what is the overruling control 22 MR. BROOKMAN: What would you suggest beCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 68 1 done? 2 MR. BLOEMER: Temperature is definitely 3 less expensive. 4 MR. BROOKMAN: To control? 5 MR. BLOEMER: To control and measure. 6 Accuracy of one percent RH can be expensive and 7 difficult to measure. The other thing in this is 8 what we do today is we actually control the room 9 that it's in versus trying to measure and control 10 inlet air. It just makes the test setup a little 11 easier to do. 12 I'm aware of some of the testing done at 13 LBNL or ORNL that was doing this. It's 14 interesting what they are doing. I don't know 15 which one is better. I don't know if there would 16 be a big difference between conditioning a room 17 versus conditioning inlet air. 18 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: John, quick question 19 for you. When you say you are measuring the 20 conditions of the test chamber, are you also-- 21 you're controlling for the test chamber but are 22 you also monitoring the air right before the unitCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 69 1 or do you just assume that temperature is the 2 same? 3 MR. BLOEMER: No, we do. We monitor 4 right before, but we don't have the long duct 5 lengths that are proposed right now. 6 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Since you are measuring 8 it, what you're finding is that the room 9 temperature is the same or very similar to the 10 inlet temperature? 11 MR. BLOEMER: Yeah, the room was 12 designed to make sure that we properly mixed 13 inside the room, so with the unit running, it does 14 mix everything, so we do see room measurements and 15 inlet conditions being the same. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Brice, do you want 17 to comment here? 18 MR. BOWLEY: No. 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments here? 20 (No response.) 21 MR. BROOKMAN: These detailed written 22 comments will be very helpful to the Department asCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 70 1 they think about this. 2 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Thanks. Next 3 would be the static pressure instrumentation, 4 which would apply for all whole-home 5 dehumidifiers. The static tube construction would 6 be in accordance with Section 4.2.2 of AMCA 210- 7 07, which is the section on pitot-static tubes. 8 The arrangement of pitot-static tubes in each 9 traverse across the plane of the duct would be 10 according to Section 4.3.1 of 11 AMCA 210-07. 12 Lastly, the measured static pressure 13 accuracy within .01 at each point of the traverse 14 would be average to represent the static pressure 15 of that location within the duct. 16 Pressure instrumentation would be 17 proposed to have an accuracy of plus or minus .01 18 inches of water column. 19 DOE proposes that whole-home 20 dehumidifiers have a test that is conducted with 21 an ESP of 0.5 inches of water column. To get at 22 that point, DOE looked at several sources,Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 71 1 manufacturer literature, which listed performance 2 as low as zero inches of water column up to 0.8 3 inches of water column. The Center for Energy and 4 Environment conducted a study for 81 Minnesotan 5 homes, and that resulted in an ESP of 0.55 inches 6 of water column. 7 Lastly, DOE's analysis in the furnace 8 fan rulemaking concluded that there is 0.5 inches 9 of water column that would be representative of 10 field duct conditions in homes. 11 ESP would be calculated as the 12 difference in static pressure between the inlet 13 and outlet ducts. In Appendix X1, we reference 14 Section 7.5.2 of AMCA 210-07, to calculate the 15 loss between the unit under test and the planes 16 where the measurement is taken to account for 17 losses between the measurement and the unit. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's see if we have 19 comments here. John? 20 MR. BLOEMER: Yeah, the whole external 21 static pressure on whole-home units is probably a 22 good indication of where this industry is at andCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 72 1 its beginning. 2 The products are applied in different 3 ways. Some are applied where they pull air out of 4 the return duct and go into the supply duct. Some 5 are applied return to return. Some will bring in 6 external air and send it in and put it in the 7 return duct. 8 There is varying static pressures that 9 these products can be applied to. I know that we 10 have tested our products and we even made some of 11 our performance claims with external static 12 pressures. We also made some performance claims 13 on other products without external static 14 pressures. It is really when we are designing and 15 claiming performance as what our intended use of 16 that product would be at the end. They can be 17 applied multiple ways. 18 To pick one static pressure right now I 19 think is an undue burden on the industry because 20 we don't have an accepted method of installation 21 or a preferred method as an industry. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: What would you propose?Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 73 1 MR. BLOEMER: The industry is so in its 2 infancy right now, to put this type of testing in 3 place may be an undue burden on us because we 4 don't have a good solution. We don't have an 5 accepted method of practice. Right now, any 6 number is just arbitrary. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: And if there was, for 8 example, a range in place, how would that affect 9 your ability to conduct the test? 10 MR. BLOEMER: It's doable. Again, the 11 range that's proposed here is probably correct. 12 Residential HVAC systems do operate up to eight13 tenths of an inch, but that's an extreme case, and 14 the HVAC manufacturer is going to not recommend it 15 be operated at that point. On average, .5 is 16 probably in the range. 17 Again, as manufacturers, we are finding 18 this may not be the best installation of a whole19 home dehumidifier to go from return to supply. It 20 may be a test point that isn't indicative of how 21 products are actually used and installed, and then 22 it provides an energy burden on these productsCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 74 1 because they have different fans that operate at 2 higher static pressures versus a less energy 3 intensive fan that can operate at zero static 4 pressure. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Ashley Armstrong. 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: I'm thinking. I'm going 7 to ask a question of you. One of the things I 8 think the Department is trying to do is come up 9 with a method that is representative of both how 10 these products operate in the field but would also 11 provide for a method that allows competing 12 products to be compared equitably across that 13 gives consumers information about how they would 14 perform. 15 Your point on these products and in the 16 literature is manufacturers may specify a whole 17 wide range of intended uses or potentially 18 different installations that would affect their 19 performance, and I think the ask of you is well, 20 how does DOE kind of whittle that down into 21 something that then would provide equitable rating 22 conditions across the board for products with theCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 75 1 same intended use to represent their performance 2 in the field, to give consumers better information 3 about making selections? 4 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 5 MR. BLOEMER: I think the answer to me 6 is the DOE--we would ask that maybe the DOE work 7 with industry to help understand this thing. For 8 example, the industry right now has a RTAR 9 proposed through TC 810 and 2.1 to be able to 10 calculate latent load in a residential 11 application. 12 There is no accepted standard to do 13 that. If we can calculate latent load in a home, 14 then we can turn and look at products and how they 15 are applied to make sure they handle that latent 16 load. Once we understand that, then we can start 17 talking about methods of test, because there will 18 be multiple products that do the same thing. 19 For example, today an air conditioner 20 does run in a dehumidifier mode, or a standard air 21 conditioner hooked up to a thermostat that 22 provides a dehumidification mode.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 76 1 Those don't have methods of test. I 2 agree that at the end of the day we would like to 3 inform the industry what is the best way to 4 install it for proper application and energy use 5 and give guidance on that. 6 There is just not enough research to be 7 able to provide that right now. All of them are 8 correct answers at this point. 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Additional 10 comments here, particularly in response to 11 Ashley's question? 12 (No response.) 13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 14 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Okay. This slide has a 15 table that illustrates how performance changes as 16 static pressure increases. As you move to the 17 right of the table, the static pressure increases, 18 and as you can see, the capacity drops off for 19 pretty much every unit. 20 There is definitely a significant 21 impact, so that's why DOE felt it necessary to 22 establish a standard ESP that is not zero.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 77 1 Again, this is the same table but for 2 energy factor. Again, the performance has dropped 3 off as static pressure increases. 4 This is another metric that would need 5 to be measured for the refrigerant-desiccant 6 units, and that is the volumetric flow rate. DOE 7 proposed that the volumetric air flow rate be 8 measured in the process air for--excuse me, the 9 refrigerant-desiccant dehumidifiers--to allow use 10 of that calculation that's proposed for that type 11 of unit. 12 DOE proposes to reference Section 7.3.1 13 of AMCA 210, which measures the velocity pressure 14 and would employ the same traverse that's used to 15 measure static pressure. 16 Another item that DOE covered was the 17 measurement frequency. Currently, in Appendix X, 18 the psychrometric data needs to be recorded in ten 19 minute intervals or less for dehumidification 20 mode, and DOE proposed in Appendix X1 to increase 21 that frequency from ten minutes to one minute 22 because the conditions in a test duct can change aCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 78 1 lot more rapidly than compared to a test chamber. 2 At this point, I'd like to remind 3 everyone that DOE is seeking comment on the test 4 setup and testing methodology, for whole-home 5 dehumidifiers in Appendix X1, including 6 refrigerant-desiccant units, and in particular, 7 DOE welcomes comments on the proposed ducting 8 configurations, alternative ambient temperature, 9 and ESP, including equipment costs and testing 10 burden. 11 MR. BROOKMAN: John? 12 MR. BLOEMER: Just to go back to your 13 last comment, the frequency of measure is not 14 important, we support it. It's done 15 electronically. You can do it as fast as you 16 wish. That's fine. 17 Then just the final comment of the duct 18 length is a burden in a test room. That would 19 require us to--we can barely do it today. We can 20 physically fit it, but that doesn't leave room at 21 the end of the ducts to get proper air flow in. 22 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Right.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 79 1 MR. BLOEMER: It becomes a burden at 2 that duct length. 3 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: At the duct length 4 proposed? 5 MR. BLOEMER: At the duct length 6 proposed. It would be a fairly large room for most 7 facilities. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: What duct length would 9 be-- 10 MR. BLOEMER: Again, the way we do it 11 today is-- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: No duct? 13 MR. BLOEMER: We don't put the duct 14 length on it unless we're testing it specifically 15 to understand performance in an external static 16 pressure. As a rating condition, I don't know if 17 the duct length is or is not needed, unless there 18 is a static pressure rating. 19 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: I guess the question is 20 when you are testing for external static pressure, 21 what are the typical lengths you do use? 22 MR. BLOEMER: We have about five feet onCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 80 1 each end. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Not five feet--not 3 .11111? 4 MR. BLOEMER: I've never measured that. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Just curious. Any 6 additional comments? These are helpful comments, 7 John. 8 MR. RAWALD: Andrew, would it be helpful 9 if John gave some data along with his comments on 10 that issue for the duct length, for the external 11 static pressure? Would that be helpful? 12 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Yes, that would be very 13 helpful. 14 MR. BLOEMER: On? 15 MR. RAWALD: When you do connect the two 16 ducts to see how performance does drop off, as 17 compared to, I guess, a stand-alone. 18 MR. BLOEMER: Looking at your test data, 19 representing the industry, it was fairly 20 representative. It wouldn't be much different. 21 It would be a data point in some data point you 22 had there.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 81 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Kevin Churchill, who is 2 joining us via the Web, has a question or comment. 3 Kevin, unmute your phone and speak. 4 MR. CHURCHILL: Can you hear me? 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 6 MR. CHURCHILL: My only comment would be 7 for the duct length-- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Kevin, you're breaking up 9 on us. Are you doing voice over Internet? Now we 10 hear nothing. We're getting feedback. Kevin, we 11 can't hear you. 12 If your question or comment is brief, 13 maybe you could just type it, and we will hand it 14 to the Webmaster who is monitoring the call, and 15 we will get it inserted in the conversation here. 16 All right. Let's proceed. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments or 18 questions related to this issue box? 19 (No response.) 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional here. 21 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: All right. Another 22 mode that DOE proposed to cover and account for isCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 82 1 fan-only mode. Certain dehumidifiers operate the 2 blower when the compressor is off, after the 3 humidity set point is reached. 4 In other words, just fan-only mode. 5 That is done for a couple of different reasons. 6 First, to draw air over the humidistat to monitor 7 the ambient conditions in the space. Secondly, to 8 defrost and dry the evaporator, and also to 9 circulate air within the conditioned space. 10 A blower may operate continuously or 11 intermittently, depending on the control 12 algorithm, so DOE proposed the following 13 definition for "fan-only mode," which is an 14 active mode in which the dehumidifier: 15 (1) has cycled off its main moisture 16 removal function by humidistat, or humidity sensor 17 or control setting; (2) has activated its fan or 18 blower to operate either cyclically or 19 continuously, and finally; (3) reactivate the main 20 moisture removal function according to humidistat 21 or humidity sensor or signal. 22 DOE proposes in Appendix X1 to measureCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 83 1 average fan-only mode power using a time period of 2 one hour if the fan is running continuously, or at 3 least one hour, including three cycles for cyclic 4 operation. 5 Fan speed would be adjusted to the 6 maximum set point because it is a setting 7 typically recommended to consumers by 8 manufacturers for maximum moisture removal rates. 9 To minimize test burden, testing could 10 be conducted under ambient conditions for 11 dehumidification mode or under standby and off 12 mode testing. 13 No more than one run-in period would be 14 required for all active mode testing. In other 15 words, you can run it in once and you can move on 16 to any of your active mode testing. You don't 17 have to re-run that run-in period. 18 Off cycle annual hours for the 19 integrated energy factor calculation would instead 20 be assigned to a fan-only mode energy use when 21 units have fan-only mode. 22 Another mode of fan mode is userCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 84 1 initiated. Some dehumidifiers allow the user to 2 initiate fan-only mode to circulate air in a room. 3 At this point, DOE isn't proposing to 4 measure energy use in this air circulation fan 5 mode, mainly due to lack of information available 6 on consumer habits around that mode. 7 At this point again I'd like to remind 8 everyone that DOE is seeking comment on the 9 proposed definition for "fan-only mode," as well 10 as comment on the proposals for measuring energy 11 consumption in fan-only mode in Appendix X1, 12 including the use of maximum speed settings for 13 those units with adjustable fan speed settings, 14 the measurement period specifications, and the 15 inclusion of fan-only mode energy consumption in 16 the calculation of integrated energy factor. 17 DOE is also seeking comment on whether 18 fan-only mode energy consumption is independent of 19 ambient conditions. 20 Lastly, DOE welcomes data and input on 21 consumer usage patterns for the fan-only mode 22 initiated by the user to circulate air in theCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 85 1 space. 2 MR. BROOKMAN: Brice? 3 MR. BOWLEY: Brice Bowley, GE. I guess 4 I had several questions related to the fan-only 5 mode. 6 MR. BROOKMAN: Make sure you get that 7 close, Brice. Thank you. 8 MR. BOWLEY: The way I read the 9 proposal, that if the unit was determined not to 10 have a fan-only mode, that it would not be 11 measured or in any way accounted for in the 12 efficiency factor, and I believe that's correct. 13 Then the three areas that are noted, 14 drawing air over the humidistat, defrosting the 15 evaporator and circulating air, none of those are 16 part of the primary function of the dehum, so I 17 think this is one area where if you measure it and 18 put it into the efficiency factor, it's likely 19 going to disappear because it greatly increases 20 the reported energy use. 21 These are all things that are kind of 22 optional on a dehumidifier. I would suspect mostCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 86 1 dehums would stop using those functions if it was 2 included into the unit. 3 Room air conditioners. Energy Star has 4 like a ruling with room air conditioners with what 5 they call "energy saver mode," which is something 6 similar, the fan goes off when the compressor goes 7 off, but it allows for some sampling of the air, 8 and it also allows for a certain period of time 9 for the fan to run after the unit is shut off to 10 make sure, in that case, it produces any 11 additional cooling, and in this case, it would be 12 any additional dehumidification. 13 I guess one thought, for defrosting and 14 drawing air for sampling, I would think we would 15 want to maintain those. For those, I would 16 propose those be removed from the definition, that 17 the defrosting and sampling of air, some 18 percentage of time of sampling air, to make sure 19 the humidity is maintained. 20 I guess the other question, like we have 21 noted, if there is a fan-only operation without 22 dehumidification, if it is consumer selectable toCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 87 1 run, either continuously or in an energy saver 2 type mode, could that also be excluded. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Rawald. 4 MR. RAWALD: Brice, I want to follow up 5 on clarifying what you're saying. I want to keep 6 separate the concept of measurement versus being 7 held accountable to a standard, because we are 8 going to get to the fact that this Appendix is 9 going to be used possibly to develop a new 10 standard down the road. 11 When you say exclude it from the 12 definition, you're saying you don't want to 13 measure the actual energy use in these modes 14 whether it is done for sampling or for the other 15 things you articulated; is that correct? 16 MR. BOWLEY: Yes, that's correct. 17 MR. RAWALD: You only want to measure 18 what's going on in the active mode once 19 dehumidifying? 20 MR. BOWLEY: Yes; that's correct. 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Judy Reich, do you have a 22 query/comment?Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 88 1 MS. REICH: I do, I just want to point 2 out that the current test procedure defines an 3 integrated metric that includes not only what I 4 think you are describing, that DOE is proposing to 5 clarify, dehumidification mode energy use, but it 6 also includes the standby mode and off mode energy 7 use. That was required under EPAct. 8 MR. BOWLEY: Right, I understand that 9 the IEF would include standby off mode and active 10 mode. What I'm proposing is that the fan-mode 11 continue to be excluded. 12 MS. REICH: To your point about the 13 consumer initiated fan-mode, DOE is not proposing 14 at this time to include that. It is done entirely 15 separately. 16 MR. BOWLEY: Right, but what I was 17 proposing is if we are going to require a fan18 mode, if that continuous operation with 19 dehumidification, if that is user selectable, then 20 the consumer can either select to use the unit in 21 a mode that has no fan-mode or they can select to 22 run in continuous to provide air circulation withCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 89 1 dehumidification, but the fan-mode would still be 2 excluded. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks for 4 the clarification. It's helpful. John? 5 MR. BLOEMER: For whole-home 6 dehumidification, there will have to be a lot more 7 discussion on what "fan-mode" is here because 8 there are multiple fans that can be actually 9 turned on during this mode. There could be the 10 fan inside the unit. There can be the whole-house 11 fan. 12 There is also logic in place in some 13 products that will sample air while the HVAC is 14 running, so there shouldn't be an energy penalty 15 associated with the product because it has picked 16 times that made energy sense to sample air. 17 There would have to be a lot more 18 definition when we're talking about fan energy and 19 sampling for whole-house dehumidifiers. 20 MR. BROOKMAN: Is there some-- 21 MS. ARMSTRONG: (Off microphone.) 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, thank you. FinalCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 90 1 comments on this segment? 2 (No response.) 3 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: At this point, I'd like 4 to turn it over to Bryan to cover the last main 5 topics. 6 MR. BERRINGER: We just have this one 7 item here that talks about the small business 8 impacts. Mainly, it is the burden of testing. DOE 9 identified five small business manufacturers. The 10 impacts we talked about today as far as reducing 11 the ambient temperature. AHAM DH-1-2008 included 12 the 65 degrees F., that suggests that some 13 manufacturers have already tested at the proposed 14 lower test. 15 These are impacts basically in the costs 16 of the testing, the burden of testing that we 17 talked about today, specifically with the whole18 house duct test, refrigeration only whole-house 19 dehumidification. 20 A dehumidifier could cost between $1,500 21 to $3,000, and the refrigerant-desiccant 22 dehumidifier can be almost $8,100. Obviously,Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 91 1 that is an additional cost. 2 As was mentioned about the fan-only mode 3 test, using the same measurement devices as the 4 current test procedure but the cost could be 5 another $2,000 if needed, what you were talking 6 about, Brice. 7 Proposed limit of one psychrometer per 8 dehumidifier test, it could require the purchase 9 of additional psychrometers. The cost of the 10 purchase and the calibration could be $1,000, and 11 also there was discussion about the cost of a tree 12 to hold that, it could be another $300. 13 We are just putting that out there, if 14 anybody has any information on that or any 15 comments on the costs and burdens, I would like to 16 hear any comments at this point. 17 MR. BROOKMAN: If these are 18 representative costs, for example. John? 19 MR. BLOEMER: I think you are missing 20 the cost of conditioning there for the test 21 chamber, which is a major cost associated with 22 this.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 92 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you estimate what 2 that is? 3 MR. BLOEMER: $25,000/$30,000 to build a 4 room with air conditioning equipment. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: That's an one-time cost? 6 MR. BLOEMER: One time cost. As far as 7 someone setting up to run this test, that has to 8 be included in the cost. 9 MR. BERRINGER: You're doing that now as 10 part of the test requirements, so it's not an 11 additional burden based on the changes to the test 12 procedure; is that a correct statement? 13 MR. BLOEMER: Currently, whole-house 14 humidifiers do not fall under the DOE standard, so 15 this would be a burden to these people because 16 they wouldn't fall under the standard. 17 MR. BERRINGER: Okay. 18 MR. JEAN-LOUIS: Andrew Jean-Louis from 19 Navigant. Would the proposed conditions require 20 you to build a new test chamber? 21 MR. BLOEMER: Speaking just for 22 Aprilaire, if the duct length was used, I think weCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 93 1 would have to move walls, so it would be very 2 expensive. We already have a facility that we 3 test these in. I can't speak to the other 4 manufacturers that are in here that were mostly 5 small businesses also. I don't know what they do 6 for testing. 7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Can someone 8 comment on these other figures for the 9 psychrometer, the sampling tree, that kind of 10 stuff? 11 (No response.) 12 MR. BROOKMAN: No additional comments. 13 Okay. 14 MR. BERRINGER: Okay; great. We would 15 like to just go to the point of if there are 16 additional issues the stakeholders would like to 17 discuss at this time that weren't covered in the 18 NOPR, that you think it is appropriate at this 19 time to comment on or have concerns. 20 NOPR 21 MR. BROOKMAN: Jennifer Cleary. 22 MS. CLEARY: I have a few questions.Capital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 94 1 One was covered in the presentation. I should 2 have asked it earlier, so I apologize. Going back 3 to the discussion on the proposal to change the 4 ambient temperature for portable dehumidifiers to 5 65 degrees. 6 It's totally possible that we missed 7 this in the NOPR, but was there also a change 8 proposed to the equation for capacity to account 9 for that? 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Judy Reich. 11 MS. REICH: Yes. 12 MS. CLEARY: And I assume that was used 13 in the results--Slide 34? 14 MS. REICH: That's correct. 15 MS. CLEARY: Thank you. I have a couple 16 of other questions about something that wasn't 17 covered but is in the NOPR, which is certification 18 and verification, specifically with regard to 19 capacity. DOE proposes to require that the 20 average of the capacities measured for a given 21 sample be used for certification purposes. 22 I guess we just had a couple ofCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 95 1 questions about what that average would be. Would 2 that be the exact average or a rounded value? 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Ashley Armstrong. 4 MS. ARMSTRONG: So I'm doing this from 5 memory, I'm going to ask what do you want or what 6 do you think it should be. I think all we 7 specified was a C average of the units in the 8 sample. For lack of there being one in the 9 proposal surrounding capacity, at least for that, 10 I guess the question then becomes do you think 11 there should be. 12 MS. CLEARY: Okay. We'll let you know 13 in our written comments. The other question would 14 be when that rounding would take place or when you 15 would round this average. Would we keep the exact 16 measure and then round the average, which is sort 17 of the question I just asked, or keep the exact 18 measure average and only round at the very end? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: So in absence of 20 specific guidance, what we typically do is carry 21 through individual, round on the average, but we 22 should be explicit, so if you have a specificCapital Reporting Company

Residential Dehumidifier Test Proceedures Docket No.: EERE-2014-BT-TP-0010 06-13-2014

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 96 1 proposal, we welcome your comments. 2 MS. CLEARY: Okay. Thank you. The last 3 question about this, there are so many, I'm 4 assuming that conservative rating is also 5 permitted on the capacities? 6 MS. ARMSTRONG: That's not how the stats 7 were proposed. 8 MS. CLEARY: Okay. Is that something 9 the Department would consider? 10 MS. ARMSTRONG: We welcome comments on 11 all things. 12 MS. CLEARY: Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. BROOKMAN: We have a few comments 14 from those joining us via the Web. Ed Wuesthoff, 15 please unmute your phone. 16 MR. WUESTHOFF: This is Ed Wuesthoff at 17 Friedrich. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 19 MR. WUESTHOFF: I was wanting to 20 indicate that the testing at 65 degrees would 21 create a whole new redesign on the products that 22 are currently offered by our company. That wouldCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 97 1 end up creating larger coils and increased expense 2 for our consumers. 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Ed, those comments in 4 considerable detail in writing would be helpful to 5 the Department. 6 MR. WUESTHOFF: Okay, I will forward 7 those to you in the near future. 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Bryan is 9 about to show a slide which will identify where 10 you send everything. 11 In addition, we have a question from 12 Renata Mortazavi, who asks how is "small business" 13 defined? 14 Betsy Kohl. 15 MS. KOHL: Yes. Betsy Kohl, DOE General 16 Counsel. The Small Business Administration 17 provides us with size standards. I believe there 18 is a link in the rule document to where those size 19 standards are located and also an indication of 20 the size standards that we used for this rule, but 21 it is set by the Small Business Administration. 22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. They can find itCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 98 1 in the Docket. 2 MS. KOHL: Yes. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: Just for reference, it 4 is 750 employees or less. 5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Ashley. Final 6 comments on small business impacts before we go to 7 the comments' slide. We had Kevin Churchill. 8 MR. BERRINGER: Yes, we lost Kevin and 9 apparently he has not resurfaced yet. 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Kevin, do you want to 11 try? 12 (No response.) 13 MR. BERRINGER: Again, we are at the 14 point where if there are any other issues for 15 discussion that were not covered in the NOPR or 16 have not been discussed today. Any other comments 17 or concerns either here or from the Webinar 18 participants? 19 MS. ARMSTRONG: While Bryan shows the 20 slide about how to submit comments, our next 21 meeting for the standard side of this or 22 potentially considering standards isn't slated toCapital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 99 1 start until 1:00, so my question for you guys is 2 do you want to start earlier, with the hope of 3 getting out of here early, or do you want to 4 postpone until 1:00? It's Friday! 5 UNIDENTIFIED: The earlier, the better. 6 MS. NOLL: (Off microphone.) 7 MS. ARMSTRONG: Bryan will finish this 8 up. My assumption, and maybe this is a bad one, is 9 most people that would be interested in the test 10 procedure will likely be interested in the 11 standards as well. 12 We can send out a note via e-mail to 13 them just to let them know we are starting early. 14 Why don't we take a little longer break, maybe 30 15 minutes, if that is okay. 16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep. 17 MS. ARMSTRONG: Bryan will wrap this up. 18 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds good; yes. 19 MR. BERRINGER: Okay, that being said, 20 we discussed submission of written comments. 21 Again, the transcripts will be made available and 22 they will be part of the Docket.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 100 1 We just ask that for written comments, 2 you identify either the Docket number or the RIN 3 number. You can e-mail those to: 4 Dehumidifier2014TP0010@ee.doe.gov or you can mail 5 them to Brenda Edwards at the address or by 6 courier. There is an address here specifically 7 for sending them to her and her phone number, if 8 you're sending it courier or FedEx. 9 The other thing, just as far as next 10 steps in the agenda, DOE will take the comments, 11 the transcripts and written comments and we will 12 analyze those. Again, the comments are due by 13 August 4. We will analyze those and incorporate 14 those into the final rule as appropriate and 15 respond to those comments. 16 Right now, DOE is anticipating 17 publishing the final rule for the dehumidifier 18 test procedures in January 2015. 19 With that said, I would like to again 20 thank everybody for their participation, and this 21 concludes the test procedure portion of the 22 meeting. Thank you.Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 101 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to clarify, we are 2 due for a break, so we are going to take it now. 3 It is just about 10:45. We are going to take a 4 half an hour break. We are going to notify 5 everyone that the standards' meeting will commence 6 at 11:15. 7 For those that are joining us on line, 8 the Webmaster just informed me that you need to 9 log in separately at 11:15 or before 11:15 for the 10 standards' portion of this Webinar, so it's a 11 separate log-in procedure, apparently. 12 Thanks. We had a good morning. We will 13 see you back here and resume at 11:15. 14 (Whereupon, at 10:48 a.m., the 15 meeting was concluded.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 102 1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, CHRISTINE ALLEN, the reporter before whom the 4 foregoing hearing was taken, do hereby certify 5 that the witness whose testimony appears in the 6 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 7 the testimony of said witness was recorded by me 8 and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 9 direction; that said deposition is a true record 10 of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 11 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 12 any of the parties to the action in which this 13 deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 14 a relative or employee of any counsel or attorney 15 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 16 otherwise interested in the outcome of this 17 action. 18 19

____________________ 20 CHRISTINE ALLEN 21 22Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 $ $1,000 91:10 $1,500 90:20 $2,000 91:5 $25,000/$30,000 92:3 $3,000 90:21 $300 91:12 $8,100 90:22 0 0.5 70:21 71:8 0.55 71:5 0.8 71:2 01 70:13,17 07 70:7 1 1 5:3 67:18 82:15 1:00 99:1,4 10:30 9:4 10:45 9:4 101:3 10:48 101:14 1000 1:12 11:15 101:6,9,13 11:45 11:4 11:59 15:8 11111 80:3 13 1:16 6:11 12:8 54:22 15 5:5 16 5:6 40:19 61:7 19 5:7 2 2 5:4 12:7 82:17 2.1 75:9 20 44:20 62:11 63:3 2006 15:14 37:17 2008 36:1 2009 36:20 2012 15:17 37:5 2014 1:16 6:11 15:19 2015 12:20 100:18 21 12:8 40:12 210 70:6 77:13 210-07 58:4 61:7 62:8,16 66:4 70:11 71:14 24 24:12 25 49:9 3 3 5:5 82:19 3.5 62:9 30 99:14 34 48:9 94:13 36 40:11,12 4 4 5:6 12:15 15:8 100:13 4.2.2 70:6 4.3.1 70:10 40 37:2 49:7 41.1 65:16 5 5 5:7 73:15 5.2.1.3 62:7 5.3.5 65:16 50 50:8,16 52:13

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 70:10 82:20 account33:3 44:7 54:19 71:16 81:22 94:8 accountable 87:7 accounted 20:7 85:11 accuracy 65:4 67:14,15,18,19 68:6 70:13,17 accurate34:21 66:17 67:4 accurately

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 anticipating 12:20 33:18 100:16 anybody 8:17 12:22 59:4 91:14 anyone 14:6 63:8 anyone's 59:10 anything 9:9 59:5 apologize 94:2 apparently98:9 101:11 appears 102:5 Appendix 15:14,18,20,21 16:1 22:13,17 23:10,15,17,18 24:14 26:9 30:16 34:12,17,18 41:2 48:14 55:3 71:13 77:17,20 78:5 82:22 84:11 87:8 Appliances 2:12 application 19:19 42:16,20 75:11 76:4 applications 24:20 42:17 61:21 applied 72:2,3,5,9,17 75:15 apply 32:21 33:18 70:4 appreciate46:6 47:20 51:19 54:2 59:8 approach 38:19 39:5 41:6,9 45:13 64:18 appropriate 93:18 100:14 Aprilaire 2:11 7:8 18:19 92:22 arbitrary 73:6 area85:17 areas 35:1 85:13 aren't67:15 Armstrong2:5 7:22 19:22 20:18 21:13 22:2 29:17,18 30:8 31:20 32:1,13,14 47:13,14 74:5,6 89:21 95:3,4,19 96:6,10 98:3,19 99:7,17 arrangement70:8 articulated87:15 ASAP 3:8 Ashley2:5 3:4 7:22 19:22 29:16,19 32:13 33:11 47:13 74:5 95:3 98:5 Ashley's 76:11 ASHRAE 42:4,9 47:10 49:22 65:16 aspirating 66:22 67:6 assembly 16:14 assigned 83:20 associated 27:16,19 41:3,9 89:15 91:21 Association 58:3 assume69:1 94:12 assuming96:4 assumption 99:8 attached17:6 54:5,7

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2014 52:16,21 53:1 59:12 60:12,15 63:2,7 64:3,21 67:11 68:2,5 69:3,11 71:20 73:1,10 75:5 78:12 79:1,5,10,13,22 80:4,14,18 89:5 91:19 92:3,6,13,21 blower 24:5 82:2,10,18 board 74:22 Bowley 2:12 7:9 34:6 43:3,14,21 51:17 53:12 69:18 85:3,8 87:16,20 88:8,16 box 14:12,15 17:20 33:22 59:4 81:18 boxes 14:21 break 9:3,5 34:13 99:14 101:2,4 breaking 81:8 breath 41:19 Brenda 100:5 Brice 2:12 7:9 34:5,6 43:2,3 44:6,15 51:16 53:11 69:16 85:2,3,7 87:4 91:6 brief 8:13,18 81:12 bring 54:10 60:16 63:11 72:5 bringing 41:17 broad 18:22 Brookman 2:3 6:3,13 7:2 8:8,12 9:15 13:5 14:1,4 17:19 18:16 19:20 22:3,7,10 24:17 25:20 26:3 27:21 28:2 29:16,22 30:2,10 31:17 32:13 33:8,21 34:4,9,15 41:14 43:2,12,19,22 44:4,12 45:6,22 46:4,18 47:13 48:5,20 49:1 51:8,16,19 52:5,8,15,19,22 53:7,11,14,17,22 59:2,8,13 60:2,10 61:4 62:22 63:15 64:19 65:2,7 67:10,22 68:4 69:7,16,19,21 71:18 72:22 73:7 74:5 75:4 76:9,13 78:11 79:8,12 80:2,5 81:1,5,8,17,20 85:2,6 87:3,21 89:3,20,22 91:17 92:1,5 93:7,12,21 94:10 95:3 96:13,18 97:3,8,22 98:5,10 99:16,18 101:1 brought58:11,12 63:3 Bryan 2:6 6:16,17 7:2 10:16 16:8 90:4 97:8 98:19 99:7,17 Buccitelli4:3 8:6 bucket28:9,13 29:2

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