NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

+ + + + + DEPARTMENT of AGRICULTURE

+ + + + + NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS BOARD

+ + + + + "ACCESS TO PASTURE" LISTENING SESSION

+ + + + + OCTOBER 28, 2008

+ + + + + The above entitled listening session was convened in the Owasco Room, Holiday Inn, 75 North St., Auburn, NY, at 9:13 a.m.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S (9:13 a.m.) MR. MATHEWS: Thank you Ed. And, first I want to express my appreciation to Ed for all of the help that he has given -- every time I've called him up and said - Β Ed, what about this? What about that? Can you get me some data over here. Ed's always there to try to help out. And I appreciate the help that he has given and I also appreciate the invitation to come here. I was invited regardless of whether or not the Rule got out. It was a real treat that we were able to get it out in time for me to come up. First thing I want to say is that I seem to be wired here. I`ve got wires in the front, wires in the back, so I'd appreciate it if you would all drink the water right now. OK. You can say whatever you want. You can do whatever you want. Just please don't throw water. OK, Ed. You said this would click.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Ed comes to the rescue again. OK, the first thing I want to say is that we've got the livestock provisions, the origin of livestock, livestock feed, livestock health care practice standard, livestock living conditions that are already in the regulations. Now, when it comes to the existing regulations, in my opinion, pasture is already addressed. We have pasture mentioned under livestock feed. We have pasture mentioned under livestock health care practice standards. There it talks about having pasture suitable to control disease and parasites. And then we have livestock living conditions where it talks about pasture and access to the out -- you know, access to pasture. What isn't showing up there is the definitions section where we also define pasture. So right now you have Regulations that say, the animals are supposed to be onNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### pasture, they're supposed to be feeding on pasture. You got a definition of pasture that says that it provides food. And you've got healthcare practices saying that you have to control for parasites and disease. So pasture is already there. Now what we have done in this massive docket is nothing more than flesh out what is already there with three exceptions. Those exceptions are: 30% DMI from pasture. Second, no more than 70% DMI from non-pasture. And the third difference, new provision, is the requirement under this pasture practice standard that we've added that provides for a sacrificial pasture. So again, there's only three new provisions. Everything else is already in the regulations. We have done nothing but flesh it out. OK? OK, we'll start out with 237 Livestock feed. 237 has a few changes. 239 has a lot of changes and then of course, 240 is all brand new. Now what we've done isNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### we've taken the livestock feed provision and we've added the words, by operations certified to the NOP, except as provided in 205.236(a)(ii) -- and that's the provision that allows for the whole herd conversion Β by operations certified to the NOP. So, why did we add that language? We added that language because there are people out there who are trying to feed product that they call organic that is not certified organic. OK? So you get some people who are buying hay that they said was organic that was not from a certified operation. And then we have got the exception, except that nonsynthetic substances and synthetic substances allowed under 205.603 may be used as feed additives and supplements. Now we've changed that but it's really just the repositioning of the wording. Some people thought that nonsynthetic substances and synthetic substances allowed under 205.603 wentNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### together. So we've really reversed that. So it says that synthetic substances allowed under 205.603 and nonsynthetic substances may be used as feed additives and supplements. So it's just a clarification that you won't find nonsynthetics in 205.603. Then here's a biggie, provided that all agricultural ingredients in such additives and supplements shall have been produced and handled organically. All agricultural products in livestock feed are required to be organic as it states up right at the very beginning. As we move into 237(b), there's really no changes in the first several items. This -- this text here is just what's already there. So, the producer of an organic operation must not, so we've added two. But again, these are just clarifications. Number seven is new language but it is not a new provision, provide feed or forage to which anyone, at anytime, has added an antibiotic.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### As we all know, antibiotics are prohibited in organic livestock production. But we have found through some compliance cases that antibiotics have been showing up in the feed. So this is a clarification that you cannot do that. Number eight is: prevent, withhold, restrain or otherwise restrict ruminate animals from actively obtaining feed grazed from pasture during the growing season, except for conditions as described under 205.239(c). So that's not really a new provision either. We've written a whole new section or paragraph within the section to better describe the requirements. And the first of those three new provisions shows right up here in (c): during the growing season, producers shall provide not more than an average of 70% of a ruminant's dry matter demand from dry matter fed, dry matter fed does not include dry matter grazed from vegetation rooted in pasture. Producers shall, once a month, on aNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### monthly basis go on and document this. So the document for each feed ration, for each type of animal, each class of animals intended daily diet showing all ingredients, daily pounds of each ingredient per animal, each ingredient's percentage of the total ration, the dry matter percentage for each ingredient, and the dry matter pounds for each ingredient. Now we believe that you guys already do that. We believe that you already know what your feed rations are. You also have to document the daily dry matter demand of each class of animal using the formula, average weight divided by the animal pounds times .03 equals the pounds dry matter per head per day times the number of animals equals the total dry matter demand in pounds per day. So we want you to know what your dry matter demand is for all -- for your animals as a whole. Then you would document how much dry matter is fed daily to each class ofNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### animal and then you would document the percentage of dry matter fed daily to each class of animal using the formula, dry matter fed divided by the matter demand in pounds per day times 100 which would give you the percent of dry matter fed. So, we've designed this so that you're going to figure out what your 70% is and then you're out grazing them for the rest of it. Okay, from there move on to 239. As you noticed we didn't make any changes to 238. We've moved for more clarification indicating that the producer of an organic livestock operation must establish and maintain, we've inserted the words, year-round livestock living conditions which accommodate the health and natural behavior of the animals, including those listed in paragraphs (a)(1) through (a)(3) of this section. Further, producers shall not prevent, withhold, restrain, or otherwise restrict animals from being outdoors, exceptNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) and (c) of this section. Producers shall also provide, now this is for year-round access for all animals to the outdoors, shade, shelter, exercise areas, fresh air, and we've added in water for drinking indoors and outdoors. We saw some cases where people weren't providing water when they had the animals outdoors. And direct sunlight, suitable to the species, its stage of life. Now the important part there is that used to say stage of production and we had people who were saying well lactation is a stage of production which justifies not putting lactating cows on pasture because they have to be under such scrutiny by the veterinarians that they couldn't let them go out to pasture. And so the Board had recommended changing stage of production to stage of life and we've put that in there. The climate and the environment.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Now within 239 there's the access to pasture for ruminants. That's all it said. As we all know, that was very loosely interpreted and so what we've done is we've proposed to some new language to replace those five short words. So now we are saying for all ruminants, continuous year-round management on pasture, except as otherwise provided in paragraph (c) of this section for: (i) grazing throughout the growing season and (ii) access to the outdoors throughout the year, including during the non-growing season. And we say that dry lots and feedlots are prohibited. They've never been allowed. Okay? Dry lots and feedlots were never allowed. Especially the feedlots. In fact, the NOSB had recommended as one of its suggested changes to the Regulations that we allow feedlots. Commoners were opposed to that and we've reinforced that here saying that the feedlots are not allowed. Okay, here's 239 that talks aboutNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### appropriate clean dry bedding if the bedding is typically consumed by the animal species, it must comply with the feed requirements. Believe it or not, we had people manipulating the phraseology of this section. And their basic position was -- okay, well, I know that they'll eat that, but my cows are so well fed they won't eat their bed. Well, we've fixed that problem too. Appropriate clean, dry bedding. When hay, straw, ground cobs or other crop matter typically fed to the animal species is used as bedding, it must comply with the feed requirements of 205.237. And as we know, that means the agricultural product has to be organic. So the people who were manipulating the wording of (3), under the proposed change, would no longer be able to perform that little manipulation of phraseology. This language remains the same about shelter designated to provide for and --NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### to allow for. Then we go on to (b) and we have The producer of an organic livestock operation may provide temporary confinement for an animal because of. We've split this. And now we're proposing that the producer of an organic livestock operation may temporarily deny a non-ruminant access --animal access to the outdoors because of: inclement weather, the animal's stage of life that shows up again. Remember I told you it used to say production. Conditions under which the health, safety and welfare --well-being of the animal could be jeopardized, or risk to soilor water. That now only applies to nonruminant. We've added a new paragraph that addresses the ruminants. The producer of an organic livestock operation may temporarily deny a ruminant animal pasture under the following conditions: When the animal is segregated for treatment of illness or injury,NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### the various life stages, such as lactation, are not illnesses or injury. And as I stated earlier, we had people who were treating lactation as if it was an illness. (2) One week prior to parturition -- for people like me who originally didn't know quite what Hugh Karreman was talking about as birthing. Of course, all you guys know that. And I kind of had a hint myself. During parturition, and up to one week after parturition; In the case of newborns for up to six months after which they must be on pasture and may no longer be individually housed. (4) In the case of goats, during periods of inclement weather. In the case of sheep, for short periods for shearing and finally, (6) In the case of dairy animals, for short periods daily for milking. And then we go on to say that milking must be scheduled in a manner to ensure sufficient grazing time to provide each animal with an average dryNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### matter intake from grazing of not less than 30%. And as you recall, I said that's one of the three new provisions throughout the growing season. Milking frequencies or duration practices cannot be used to deny dairy animals pasture. Then we've added another new paragraph within the reg. And it's ruminantsmust be provided with a lying area with wellmaintained clean, dry bedding, which complies with paragraph (a)(3) of this section, during periods of temporary housing, provided due to temporary denial of pasture during conditions listed in paragraphs (c)(1) through (c)(5) of this section. Ruminants must be provided with yards and passageways kept in good condition and well-drained. They have to be provided with shade and in the case of goats, shelter open on at least one side. Water at all times except during short periods for milking or shearing, such water must be protected fromNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### fouling. Feeding and watering equipment that are designated or -- constructed and placed to protect from fouling such equipment must be cleaned weekly. And in the case of newborns, hay in a rack off the ground, beginning seven days after birth, unless on pasture, and pasture for grazing in compliance with 205.240(a), which is a new provision, or it's -- it's a new section of the regs, but it's really old provisions - Β not later than six months after birth. Now, I just show you this because there -- there was formerly a pasture -- or a passage that was labeled as (c), we've now labeled it as (e) because we've added the new (c) and (d). And then we've added another paragraph (f): The producer of an organic livestock operation must manage outdoor access areas, including pastures, in a manner that does not put soil or water quality at risk. This includes the use of fences andNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### buffer zones to prevent ruminants and their waste products from entering ponds, streams, and other bodies of water. Buffer zone size shall be extensive enough, in full consideration of the physical features of the site, to prevent the waste products of ruminants from entering ponds, streams, and other bodies of water. Again, this is not a new requirement. You've always had the requirement that you had to protect the crops, the soil and the water from contaminants. Now we've got 240. This is the pasture practice standard that we've added to better clarify what is required. As you'll recall, there is a requirement for an organic systems planner. This is going to help you better tell us the operation that you are performing and provide your certifying agent with the details that are necessary for the certifying agent to know whether or not you are in compliance.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### The producer of an organic livestock operation must, for all ruminant livestock on the operation, demonstrate through auditable records in the organic systems plan, a functioning management plan for pasture that meets all requirements of Sections 205.200 through 205.240. Pasture must be managed as a crop in full compliance with 205.200 through 205.206. The producer must develop and annually update a comprehensive pasture plan for inclusion in the producer's organic system plan. When there is no change to the previous year's comprehensive pasture plan the certified operation may resubmit the previous year's comprehensive pasture plan. The comprehensive pasture plan must include a detailed description of crops to be grown in the pasture and haymaking system. Cultural practices, including but not limited to varying the crops and their maturity dates in the pasture system, to be used to insureNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### pasture of a sufficient quality and quantity is available to graze throughout the growing season and to provide all ruminants under the organic systems plan with an average of not less than 30% of their dry matter intake from grazing throughout the growing season. So you can see we've raised the 30% DMI issue once again. The plan also has to detail the haymaking system. It needs to detail the location of pasture and haymaking fields, including maps showing the pasture and haymaking system and giving each field its own identity. This really isn't new. You're already doing that for crops. And pasture is a crop. The types of grazing methods to be used in the pasture system, the location and types of fences and the location and source of shade and water, the soil fertility, seeding, and crop rotation systems, the pest, weed, and disease control practices, The erosion control and protection of natural wetlands, riparianNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### areas, and soil and water quality practices, pasture and soil sustainability practices, and restoration of pasture practices. Those are all the things that need to be in your organic systems plan. Now this is the third of the new items. The pasture system must include a sacrificial pasture for grazing to protect the other pastures from excessive damage during periods when saturated soil conditions render the pastures too wet for animals to graze. Why were we concerned with that? Because there are actually producers out there who were using just about any amount of water falling from the sky as an excuse not to put their animals on pasture. And they were saying -- well that was too wet for the pasture. Now, the sacrificial pasture must be sufficient in size to accommodate all animals in the herd without crowding. Needs to be located where soils have goodNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### trafficability, well drained, there's a low risk of soil erosion, there is a low or no potential of manure runoff, surrounded by vegetated areas and easily restored. Managed to provide feed value and maintain or improve soil, water and vegetative resources. Restored through active pasture management. In addition to the above producers must manage pasture to comply with all applicable requirements of the remaining sections -- or the other sections of the livestock provisions which are 205.236 through 205.239. Now, with all these changes we felt there needed to be some changes in the definitions. The first one is for crop. It used to say a plant or part of a plant intended to be marketed as an agricultural product or fed to livestock. We had certifying agents who had actually agreed with their clients or who had told their clients, one or the other that this definition of crop enabled them to not have to have organic seedsNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### for cover crops because of the way the seed provisions are written in the Regulations. So what we did to clarify that pasture is a crop, that sod is a crop that cover crops, green manure crops are all, and catch crops are all crops -- we've added them to the definition. So it would now read pastures, sod, cover crops, green manure crops, catch crops, and any plant or part of the plant intended to be marketed as an agricultural product, fed to livestock, or used in the field to manage nutrients in soil fertility. So that closed the loophole that some were trying to use. Okay, we felt we needed to define dry matter. So we've added the definition of dry matter the amount of a feedstuff remaining after all the free moisture is evaporated out. We felt we needed to define dry lot. We've defined that as a confined area that may be covered with concrete, but that has no vegetative cover.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Feedlot, a confined area for the controlled feeding of ruminants. And as I said earlier, that's not allowed. Never has been allowed. Graze, the consumption of standing forage by livestock, to put livestock to feed on standing forage. And grazing is defined as to graze. We've defined growing season, the period of time between the average date of the last killing frost in the spring to the average date of the first killing frost in the fall or early winter in the local area of production. This represents a temperature threshold of 28 ° F, 3.9 ° C or lower at a frequency of five years in 10. Growing seasons may range from 121 days to 365 days. You'll recall that the Board had recommended 120 days and that was based on people like yourselves saying that there had to be at least 120 days grazing. We've gone one better by definingNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### it as the growing season. Otherwise you would have had parts of the country where they could have housed the animals for 245 days out of the year, but only had to put them out for 120. So we've defined it as a growing season rather than going with the 120 days. Also, there was never a definition for inclement weather. Now we are proposing that the definition of inclement weather read, weather that is violent or characterized by temperatures, high or low, that can kill or cause permanent physical harm to a given species of livestock. And because growing season refers to the killing frost, we've defined killing frost, a frost that takes place at temperatures between 25 ° and 28 ° F, -2.2 and - 3.3 ° C for a period sufficiently severe to end the growing season or delay its beginning. Now this definition of sacrificial pasture is essentially the same as the language that's in the regulatory text itselfNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### in the new section 240. Sacrificial pasture, a pasture or pastures within the pasture system of sufficient size to accommodate all animals in the herd without crowding, where animals are kept for short periods during saturated soil conditions to confine pasture damage to an area where potential environmental impacts can be controlled. This pasture is then deferred from grazing until it has been restored through active pasture management. Sacrificial pastures are located where soils have good trafficability, are well drained, have low risk of soil erosion, have low or no potential of manure runoff, are surrounded by vegetative areas, and are easily restored. A sacrificial pasture is land used for livestock grazing that is managed to provide feed value and maintain or improve soil, water and vegetative resources. It is not a dry lot or feedlot. Now, we also have had lots ofNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### questions in the past about what is temporary, what is temporarily. So we've added the definition of what is temporary and temporarily. That's occurring for a limited time only for example, overnight throughout a storm, during a period of illness, the period of time specified by the administrator -- that's the administrator of the AMS -- when granting a temporary variance. It's not permanent or lasting. Okay, the definition of livestock does not currently coincide with the definition of livestock that's in the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990. And that's because the old definition excludes bees and it also excludes aquatic species. The problem with the definition in the regs as it is is that we've always said that you can have organic honey. And if you're gonna have organic honey, you gotta have organic bees. So, we have brought or are proposing to bring the definition of livestock in line with theNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Organic Foods Production Act. Livestock, any bee, cattle, sheep, goats, swine, poultry, equine animals used for food or in the production of food, fiber, feed, or other agricultural based consumer products. Fish used for food, wild or domesticated game, or other non-plant life. That's how it appears in the Organic Foods Production Act. Okay, the only change here is that it used to say in the second line there, where it says, at the very end, through 2000 -- 205.240. That used to say 205.239. Any time that we make changes in the regulations that affect the numbering system, we have to go through the regs to make sure we update the numbering system that may occur someplace else. And this section -- this paragraph here was always intended to reference all of the livestock provisions. And so by adding new section 240, we had to change the 239 to a 240.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### This one is a controversial issue which if I had known back in the summer of 2006 when I first started writing this, that it would take this long to get it out, I would not have included it. Because I think the issue has died down. But it had to do with a clarification for (iii) once-- the section-- section 236 was amended because of the Harvey lawsuit. So this really doesn't have any impact on pasture, but it does have an impact as far as the origin of livestock. And that impact is that it's really no impact because we are working on a separate rule on origin of livestock. But this will give you an opportunity if you would like, to provide us with some comments and preferably data related to origin of livestock. Okay? Now what-- what this says and it's intended just as a clarification of the old language. Once an operation has been certified for organic production using theNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### exception in paragraph (a)(2)(i) or (ii) of this section, all dairy animals brought onto the operation shall be under organic management from the last third of gestation. It continues the two-track system. Okay? It was just a clarification that the two-track still exists. But again, I emphasize we are working on separate rulemaking to address this issue. So, don't get too excited about it -- other than the fact that I acknowledge along with you that the rulemaking process takes entirely too long. And with that, I've gone through all of the slides I had, and so at this point I'll -- I'm going to just make a couple of additional comments and then I'll turn it over to all of you. First of all, we have a court reporter here who has been recording this and he'll record all of your comments. We need to make sure that everybody who is here has signed in. So if you have not signed in,NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### please do so. When you come up to the microphone to speak, please clearly state your name. And I would also like for you to tell me what is your connection to organic dairying. If you are a certifying agent, tell me you are a certifying agent. If you are a dairy farmer, tell me about the fact that you are a dairy farmer. I'm not going to put a time limit on your presentation. But, not knowing how many people are going to want to speak, we should probably all be aware of the fact that I was the only one giving a speech today. Okay? But, I won't cut you off unless you really get kind of carried away and say that we've got -- you know, if we've got 15 people in line, we want to give everyone an opportunity. The other thing is that this runs until 12 o'clock. Well, not for me. Okay? If you want to stay beyond 12 o'clock in order to give everybody an opportunity toNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### speak, we'll stay beyond 12 o'clock. The court reporter is prepared to stay all day. I'm prepared to stay all day. Lisa may not want us to stay all day. But we're prepared to stay all day. So we will stay until everybody has had their opportunity to speak. Okay? And Ed tells me this is a bad idea, but at about 10:30, we will take a 10 minute break. Okay? Because we all need to move around. We're not getting much access to the outdoors, and we may have to take care of some business. So I'm going to give everybody a 10 minute break. But when I say a 10 minute break, I mean a 10 minute break. We will start without you. Okay? With that, have at it. Just, again, no water please. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Richard, where is the sign-up sheet? MR. MALTBY: For those attendants of one of the Field Days, they're already signed up.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. MATHEWS: So you-- MR. MALTBY: There is a sign-up sheet over by the microphones, and there is also one just out here where Nora is sittingin registration. So you'll have time to signup either when you go up to make a comment, or outside here on the registration table. But for those NODPA registered, you're already signed in. MR. MATHEWS: I can't believe that. Alright, we got Henry coming up. Come on up there Henry. Are you signed in Henry? MR. MALTBY: Yes. MR. PERKINS: Why of course. MR. MATHEWS: OK, the sign-up sheets that you did for NODPA need to get to our court reporter as well. A copy of them please. The other thing is that when you tell me you are a dairy farmer, maybe you can give me a little indication of the size of your dairy farm, that would be very helpful. MR. PERKINS: Ready? I'm HenryNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Perkins I am a dairy farmer from the state of Maine. I milk about 60 cows and I have recently become President of NODPA, so I assume that it's my place to tell you how gratified we are to have you work on this rule. We knew that you were trying to plug some serious loopholes in the -- in the operation. And I was advised to be very, very careful on what I said. So I'm going to be very, very vague and just say there are some areas of improvement that we would like to see, but we have not studied them in depth enough to -- I haven't got any specific things right now, but I'm sure that there are others that are following me that will get a little bit more specific. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Anybody else? MS. GRIFFIN: My name is Siobhan Griffin. Is this the right mic? MR. MATHEWS: It's working for the court reporter and the--NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: -- and the video people. MS. GRIFFIN: I'm an organic dairy farmer and I'm very happy that this Rule has been passed. I think -- and I'd like to thank Mr. Mathews for all his work on it. The rule makes it clear that organic dairy cows should be on pasture and that is what my consumers want. I do not think that the 30% dry matter requirement will be a hardship for any organic dairy. My cows, right now, we -- during a 120 day growing season in a summer, our cows are getting 60 to 80% of their dry matter from pasture and then -- there is an additional two months at either end of the growing season where it goes down to 30%, so we are well -- easily in the ballpark. I've been doing the organic for 10, 11 years, my 11th growing season has just finished, so I can tell you that achieving the 30% dry matter won't be anNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### economic hardship because we spent less than 3% of our total farm expenses on fencing materials, plumbing for the pastures. And all the labor to put that fence up came from my on-farm labor which would have otherwise been busy spreading manure and feeding cows on tractors. And we took the time involved to do those chores and added it to expanding the fencing program because the cows were on pasture and spreading their own manure and getting fed. So, that was a wash.

In the last several years we've won milk quality awards every year and I attribute that to the pasture because the cows get a clean pasture every 12 hours during the grazing season. They come in for milking with spotless udders, or very clean udders. And I believe that is why we've achieved our high milk quality. It is worth, on my farm, with our 80-100 cows, it is worth between $8000 and $10,000 a year. Which more than covers theNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### cost of putting the whole pasture system up and running. I believe it is the grazing system on my farm that makes my farm profitable in the organic system. I know for a fact, my farm has never made money in the winter, because the cows are not on pasture. So, I'm all for the pasture rule. I've also considered the sacrifice pasture and I feel that if you have a good grazing program in place, you already have pastures that you can use in bad weather, they're your dryer pastures. I have several that we can use and I don't think that will be a problem. So, I support the rule. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? MR. NELSON: Ed, is there any way that we can have a mic so we can hear the soft-spoken more clearly? MR. MATHEWS: I tell you what, I'll hand mine off. Thank you for the suggestion. MR. BENSON: If I wasn't nervousNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### already, I am now. My name is Fay Benson. I was an organic dairy farmer from 1997 to 2003. At that time, I started working for Cornell extension as a grazing educator. And I now manage New York's organic dairy initiative -- or New York Organic Dairy Initiative. I just had a question, and I hope I didn't miss this when-- before I got here. But on paragraph 205.237, it's quite a lengthy description that would now read, the producer of an organic livestock operation must provide livestock with a total feed ration composed of agricultural products, including pasture and forage, that are organically produced by operations certified to the NOP, except as provided in 205.236, and if applicable, organically handled by operations certified by the NOP. Now Richard, do I need to continue reading that -- my question is it's -- it goes on to -- a little bit, it confuses me in how it's written.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. MATHEWS: You're in 237. You're talking 237(a), correct? MR. BENSON: Yes. MR. MATHEWS: Well, basically what this -- the changes here are to -- you're always -- always have been required to feed organic agricultural products 100% to your livestock. But it has allowed feed additives and feed supplements to go along with it. And the language was that nonsynthetic and then also synthetic and it referred to a section number. And what we did was we reversed that language because there was confusion that some people thought that the non-synthetics werealso in 205.603, and there are no nonsynthetics in 205.603, they're all synthetics. So we reversed the language there to clarify that. The other thing that we did was that -- hey Ed, can you get me back to that slide? Okay. Part of the problem as I mentioned before, was that there are some people who were buying, for example, hay fromNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### people who claimed to be producing organically and then they were feeding that to their livestock. Well, if you are not certified as organic, you -- those animals can't get that feed, because you can't buy that. You can only buy feed for your animals from certified operations. And so we had to put in some language there to clarify that it has to come from a certified operation. Now does that help? Or do we need more? MR. BENSON: I guess -- it was the ending of that, that all agricultural ingredients in such additives and supplements shall have been produced and handled organically -- removing the word or -- we propose amending -- I'm trying to get to the part that -- the new paragraph would prohibit producers from providing feed or forage to which anyone, at anytime, has added an antibiotic. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. MR. BENSON: I mean, that neededNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### clarification? MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Unfortunately, yes. I see where you are going now. It's the next slide down. There we go. Yes, unfortunately that did need clarification because we have actually had some cases involving chickens, where we -- where it was detected that there was antibiotics in the chickens. Okay? It tested positive for antibiotics. When we went out and investigated, we found that the producer had not given his chickens any antibiotics. What it turned out to be was that the antibiotics came from the feed that the organic farmer had purchased. And so we felt, or at least I did -- I felt that it was important to say that, you know, antibiotics are prohibited including in the feed. Does that help? MR. BENSON: That helps. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Again a lot of these little changes that you are seeing, little clarifications, they're related toNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### compliance cases that we've had in the past. And we've included them here in the Pasture Rule for clarification. Next? MR. MALTBY: That mic works. MR. MATHEWS: Oh, it does? MR. MALTBY: Yes. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. MS. PITTFIED: Hello. My name is Liz Pittfield and I'm from The Weston A. Price Foundation. We have -- we're setting up a table in the foyer. It's so nice to hear the voice of a friend. We are serious proponents of traditional farming, grass fed. And it's nice to see someone working so hard on a document that's helping. So I just wanted to say thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? You can line up, by the way. MR. MORRISON: Hi, I'm Steve Morrison, an organic dairy farmer from Maine. We milk about 65 cows and we are hugelyNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### satisfied to see the -- the proposed rule here on pasture to clarify the one time vague pasture requirement for organic dairy cows. The improvement in the rule, hopefully, that this -- that this proposed Rule will represent will -- will be a huge benefit to the consumers' trust in the integrity of the organic -- the organic seal that the USDA has on organic products nationwide. And I think that the economic benefit to us as organic producers will be tremendous as a result of this rule. And I appreciate it very much. Thank you. MR. MALTBY: And just as a reminder, feel free to go up to the mic and ask questions -- clarifying questions. If Richard doesn't think that he should answer them because of ex parte. Richard is not shy about saying what he can and can't answer. But questions are good. And it's not often that we get a somebody out of D.C. to come out and speak directly to us. He doesn't bite.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. MATHEWS: No, but Mary Howe's cows do eat the pigs. And by the way, she's no longer organic. Hey, I've had plenty of antibiotics in my life. This one had my hand in its mouth up to my wrist. She was a sweetheart. That was Chrissy? Okay. Go ahead Emily. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: My name is Emily Brown-Rosen, and I work with Pennsylvania Certified Organics, so I'm a certifier, the policy director. Anyway, I have some questions. I think echo the sentiment here that we are extremely glad to see this rule published after so much hard work and it's obviously needed, so -- questions or just, trying to get at what, you know, we are actually are talking about here and we all will probably be contributing to try and clean up a few points we think could be, of course, improved. But, we are generally very happy. Okay, so my question is about inclement weather. It seems to say thatNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### there's no longer an exception for ruminant, you know, animals, for cows to be held inside for inclement weather. It also says that cows must have continuous year-round access to pasture, on managed pasture and it also requires sacrificial pastures. It also says that dry lots are prohibited and feedlots are prohibited. So the question is, what happens when we've got 3 feet of snow, we've got ice - - we have NRCS -- like we saw yesterday an NRCS funded barnyard that's, you know, well designed, well drained with concrete gravel, people have gone to a lot of effort to protect their streams and waterways, are those now forbidden? Is that the plan? MR. MATHEWS: Well the regs would prohibit feedlots and dry lots. Yes. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: So what about barnyards? Is that comparable -- MR. MATHEWS: Are they part of a pasture? MS. BROWN-ROSEN: No, in the winterNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### they might be the only outdoor access though, for a lot of farmers. MR. MATHEWS: Well, we would probably look at that as a dry lot. We are intending from these regs for the cows to be outdoors year-round. Essentially 24 hours a day except for the provisions that are there for bringing them in on a temporary basis. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: That's what I thought. Thank you. MS. BAWDEN: Hi, my name is Liz Bawden and I'm a dairy producer. My family and I have a small herd and we milk about 60 cows, plus the young stock in northern New York. We are enthusiastic supporters of the pasture policy and -- and think that this is a wonderful tool and a wonderful thing that it finally clarifies what the original rule stated, in essence, years ago. We've been certified since 2000 with NOFA New York, and actually because NOFA interpreted the original Rule much the same way, this does not reallyNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### impact our operation as it stands-- in the way in which we pasture and feed our animals. My question for clarification actually is similar to Emily's. We are in far northern New York-- from a gardening or crop perspective, they call it a zone three. So, zone three means the minimum temperature is about 40 below zero in the wintertime. And he can get that cold. So, I too looked at section 205.239, Section (c) where it does not seem to allow any temporary restriction of outdoor access due to inclement, extreme weather conditions. And I'm wondering if I'm missing something or if that is actually the intent? MR. MATHEWS: That's the intent. That they be outside at all times. MS. BAWDEN: Okay, well I suppose my comments would be that there -- that there perhaps should be an exclusion for temporarily -- and I understand where these things can be so misused, but, in our case that would be anNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### important issue in our farm. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Okay, I think what I would say if you want inclement weather for the ruminants, you need to help us understand what inclement weather is -- in the case of the rules. I know that there will be people concerned about temperature and humidity. There will be people concerned about cold. But the real challenge there is putting the fence, so to speak, around what does qualify and how long will they be in? So, if you can comment on that -- MR. BAERWOLF: Hi, my name is James Baerwolf. I dairy in -- MR. MATHEWS: Technical difficulties. But back on the previous commenter, you got comments on that, please submit them to us. And give us the details as to what you think it should be. And why it should be the way that you are proposing. Go ahead sir. MR. BAERWOLF: All right. My nameNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### is James Baerwolf. I dairy in Wisconsin. We have 120 cows. I feel that the pasture ordinances are very important and they continue to become more important as dairying changes to keep pace with what consumers are interested in. In our case, we just built a milk bottling plant and since May I currently have 12 part-time and full-time employees. So, now, no longer does just my family and our livelihood rely on the fair playing field for all organic dairies, but also my employees. And anybody -- any other employees from farmers that are interested in doing value added projects related to dairy, it becomes increasingly important as well. MR. JOHNSON: My name is Dave Johnson, I have an organic dairy in north central PA. Milking somewhere between 50 and 100 cows, depending on how ambitious I am. I actually started dairying back in 2000 and a pasture based system was the only way that I thought it was financially feasible to enterNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### the dairy business at this time. And I think my experience to date using managed pasture has proven to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that pasture based production reduced material handling. It is not only environmentally friendly and economically makes a lot of sense, but I really think it is the future of our nutrition and our food system. I wanted to just thank you, Richard, for an awful lot of hard work. I look at this Regulation and I can see at least a little bit of understanding why it took so long to get out. I can't totally see that, but, I understand you have spent a lot of time and a lot of effort to try to carefully define what is meant by pasture. Fortunately, I have been working with a certifier all along that knew what pasture was, so I don't see any major changes in my operation in utilizing pasture. So, I really appreciate what you've done in terms of trying to clarify this and to really make the playing field level for all ofNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### us. That is so important that when a consumer buys something that's certified organic that they know that it's been produced according to the rules and it's an equivalent product to something else that says certified organic on it. In terms of the rules, and there is an awful lot to digest here, you know, I -- the thing that specifically came to mind that I was scratching my head on is this definition or understanding of a sacrificial pasture. Because I look at that and I envision in my environment that a sacrificial paddock in a couple days could turn into the definition of a dry lot or feedlot, under saturated soil conditions. And then I could move to the next sacrificial paddock and in a matter of a couple of months with the wrong weather patterns, I would have my whole farm turned into a sacrificial paddock. And I look at the sacrificial paddock portion of the rule and I'm alsoNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### looking at the whole context of the organic rule that seems to emphasize the well-being of the soil, the environment and the livestock. And I see a little incongruity with those two things. Especially in light of all of the efforts that NRCS and our soil and water conservation folks have been encouraging us to do to try to come up with a high use area that doesn't impact the environment in a negative way. So, from climate conditions, to me it seems like we need to try to strike that right balance between providing the animals access the pasture, and by the way, I live in a northern climate and the weather is severe. My animals are outside 365 days a year. And they are on pasture probably at least 300 plus of those days. So, the areas that I have used exclusively with no pastures has been very, very limited. But I still scratch my head and wonder how can I meet the requirements of continuous pasture, 365 days a year, withoutNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### creating that dry lot/feedlot condition that seems to be prohibited. So, I think we have some challenges ahead in trying to understand and define what that means with the whole spirit and intent of the law. And I think it would maybe be something to consider of allowing some -- a little more understanding of the -- the certifier's and working with the whole organic system plan to come up with an appropriate system for that particular farm and climate in light of the whole organic system plan for protecting the environment and soil and the well-being of the animals. Again, thank you very much for your work. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. And Dan, I would encourage you to follow up your comments with maybe some written comments that tell us how to do what you're asking us to do. Next? MS. SODER: I'm Kathy Soder with the USDA Ag Research Service. I am an animal scientist conducting pasture based dairy andNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### livestock research. And looking over it, you've done a lot of wonderful things. I've been following this for a long time. My one concern is with the dry matter intake calculation with the 3% across-the-board. And now I would suggest that not all of these animals are eating 3% of their body weight. If you look at the NRC and other research, a 1000 pound growing large frame Wolstein type heifer is not consuming the same amount per bodyweight -- pound per bodyweight as 1000 pound dry animal versus a 1000 pound lactating animal. And then we can even go further saying a 30 pound of milk versus a 50, but anyway, I think there may need to be some differentiation there because you can raise from 2% to 3.5% of bodyweight, which easily gets more than 10% total change in the dry matter intake, which could put people if they're thinking they're at 30-- and I realize people should go over that, but if somebody thinks they're providing 30-35% dry matterNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### from pasture and suddenly they're at 25% and getting themselves in trouble, but I think maybe we need some differentiation there. If nothing else, maybe referring back to a standard like the NRC for that class bodyweight production stage of that animal. But just for some clarification on that point. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. And again, I would say follow that up with a written comment, and directions to where to go. MR. SNYDER: This will be easy after that. I'm Jerry Snyder from Alfred Station, New York. I've been a dairy farmer since 1978. I graduated from Alfred State College. I've always pastured my cows. We have a hill farm. Grass and hay is what I've fed them since 1978. When the organic milk market came, I converted to organic in 2002. We continued to graze our cows. I would like to thank you for what you've done in clarifying the pasture rule. My cows love grass. They're happy. We have very fewNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### problems. It's the natural way. As a matter of fact, before the organic term, before organic food became popular, so to speak, this was the way my grandfather farmed. This was the way all farmers farmed. And it's good to see us getting back to our roots. It's good to see the cows getting back on grass. We milk about 50 cows. My wife and I have seven children who are running the farm right now. We're venturing into raw milk. We have a store on the farm where we sell our own grass fed organic beef, organic maple syrup, apples and cider and walnuts. I see good things in store and I just want to thank you for your work on this. It makes our product have the integrity that it needs. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Surely there must be more. Okay. MR. BENSON: Fay Benson, again. Just a couple comments more. I'm wondering if maybe, I understand the problem in that this sacrifice pasture rule. If we were to look atNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### the livestock pasture rule as only taking place during the growing season, that would make it a little simpler. Is that how the pasture rule is looked at? That it does -- it's not concerned with the part of the season that's not the growing season? MR. MATHEWS: The intent is to have the animals outside 365 days out of the year. I mean, before it was access to the pasture, but they were required to have access to the outdoors as well. And so, we've written it so that they have access to pasture for grazing throughout the growing season and access to the pasture for the remaining part of the year as well. The idea is for the girls to be outdoors. MR. BENSON: Right. And I think that's always was in the certification standards that I've followed. It is during that winter, when there're only able to say outside for two to three hours before it becomes, you know, a hardship for the animal.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### So that if maybe the dry lot, the feedlot rule was not in place during the non-growing season, it would help follow these rules easier for the farmers and the girls. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. I would ask you to flesh that out a little bit more-- MR. BENSON: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: -- and send it into us through regs.gov. MR. BENSON: Okay. The other comment or question actually is, have you looked at what the impact if this rule is enacted, what's the impact going to be on the supply of organic milk? MR. MATHEWS: We're hoping you'll tell us. MR. BENSON: Because I assume everybody in this room, we're expecting that there's going to be thousands of cows that are going to be removed from the organic dairy market. Has that been discussed at all? MR. MATHEWS: No.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. BENSON: Okay. Thank you. MS. ENGELBERT: Hi, my name is Lisa Engelbert. I am the Dairy program administrator for NOFA New York Certified Organic in Binghamton, New York. Working with about 225 Dairy farms. Also, a certified organic dairy producer with my husband Kevin and our three sons in Nichols. Milk 120 cows. First of all, we know as producers how much we've been pulling our hair out over the last three or four years. I can't imagine the headaches you've had going through this process. Thank you, very much. For what you've done. All in all, as a farmer, I think it's a very good rule. I am concerned about the inclement weather. I think there's going really need to be a provision in there where ruminant animals can be confined when the welfare of those animals is in danger. I know in New York State, we have got so many different areas where -- in the southern tier where we are, we won't have aNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### problem meeting this rule at all. But in the north country and in the snow belt areas, it's going to be dangerous for cows to be outside in certain times of the year. There's no doubt about that. I know up in the north country, as Liz said, they get down to, you know, sometimes 40 below zero with pretty nasty winds that could put the wind chill down pretty low. You're going to have frozen teats

on cows. It's going to really -- their energy levels -- you're going to have to feed them additional energy sources to, you know, keep their body temperature up in a situation like that and to keep any kind of milk production up. So we're going to have to probably tweak that a little bit. I'm thrilled to see the clarification on bedding. We've always required organic bedding. They're quite a few certifier's operating within New York and there have been a couple that haven't, and ourNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### producers have hammered us on that. Well they don't have to have organic bedding, how come we do? I'm thrilled with that, so thank you for that. The origin of livestock thing, I'd kind of like to have that not included in this and not even have the wording changed from what it is, while you hash out the other thing. That's the next really, really, really big issue that we're going to be dealing with. So hopefully that won't take as long as this one did. So I guess that's all I have. Just thank you very much to you and to the other people at the NOP for all the work that has gone into this. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. With the inclement weather, please do send in further comment on that. And it just dawned on me that we actually had addressed snow and ice at one point and I don't really remember why that's not in there. I think it may have been an accidental deletion. But we had intendedNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### originally to provide that when it's too much snow or ice that the animals would be able to come in. So, I don't know where we lost that along the line. MS. ENGELBERT: Well, the new definition of inclement weather does include highs and lows in weather extremes. Or temperature extremes. I kind of have felt that might cover it a little bit, but-- MR. MATHEWS: It's only mentioned for non-ruminants. MS. ENGELBERT: We've always required outdoor access in the winter. But we have allowed them to confine animals if it was going to be dangerous for the animals to be out. MR. MATHEWS: Yes. MS. ENGELBERT: So. MR. MATHEWS: And in all honesty, it didn't dawn on me while giving the presentation, but we originally had some language in there about icy conditions. WhenNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### there's ice on the pasture or whatever, and I don't recall why that's not there. So, you can tell us that we need to put it in. MS. ENGELBERT: Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. MS. SHEA: Kelly -- MR. MATHEWS: It's 10:30 a.m. MS. SHEA: Just, fast. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Ms. Shea says she'll be fast. MS. SHEA: Yes. MR. MATHEWS: If you don't want to take a break, we don't have to take a break. But, right after Kelly we're going to take a break. MS. SHEA: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: We've got some people who need a break. MS. SHEA: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Go ahead. MS. SHEA: So, Kelly Shea with Horizon Organic Dairy, milk buyer andNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### processor. So, thank you very, very much USDA for this long-awaited rule. I actually want to ask two questions about next steps. So, I actually was glad to see the clarification on origin of livestock in this rule because I thought it might give us, as a community, the opportunity to kickstart the next rulemaking that we so much want to see come out on origin of livestock. So, two questions for you Richard. Question number one, could you talk a little bit about process and how people can provide comments in this pasture rule on the origin of livestock issue that would help expedite getting the next rulemaking out? So what information would be helpful for people to provide? What kind of comments would be able to be provided that would expedite rulemaking on origin of livestock? That's one question. And then the second question is, we're very, very grateful for the listeningNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### session here today, and wondering if USDA could talk about possibly intentions to hold further listening sessions, maybe in the Midwest, say Minnesota, Wisconsin and also on the West Coast, maybe in Northern California? MR. MATHEWS: Okay. I'll answer the second one first. We plan to do two more sessions before the end of the comment period which is December 23 rd 

### . One will be in the upper Midwest someplace. Another one will be out on the West Coast. We do not have dates or venues for that at this time. But we do plan to have two more listening sessions. Now as to the first question, the origin of livestock issue is rather complex. The Board has recommended that we amend paragraph (iii), and that will not do the job. And the reason for that, and it'll get kind of confusing without props, but you have a requirement in the origin of livestock provisions that say all animals have to be organic from the last third of gestation,NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### except, and then there's an exception for poultry and then there's an exception for dairy animals. Within that exception for dairy animals, there is a further exception. And that exception takes us down to the point where we had the problem. Okay? The first exception talks about how you can convert an animal for 12 months to make them organic. The second exception provides for how you feed that animal. So you ended up with a two-track system because people who didn't take the second exception were allowed to keep bringing animals in. So you don't solve the problem by changing (iii) of the feed provision. So in reality, there has to be a wholesale rewrite of 236(a)(2). I mean, it just has to be rewritten. And in working this up, I've got about a hundred questions as to things like Β all right, if you're going with last third of gestation for all animals, can a dairy farmer who is conventional, who goes to organic, onceNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### they become organic, they have to have all animals last third of gestation. But could that dairy farmer buy another farm and convert it in the same way that he had done for his farm? And the questions go on and on, the nuances along those lines. There's also the issue of breeders stock. Okay? Right now you can bring in breeders stock that could be converted, if you wanted to. There's breeders stock you might keep, there's breeders stock you might not keep. But if you have a requirement that all animals be last third of gestation after the date that you get certified, does that apply to breeders stock? The Board hasn't addressed that. So, there's all kinds of things in there that have not been addressed and I could probably stand up here and talk about that question for about an hour. So, if you want to comment on the origin of livestock one, I would think that you would want to think andNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### comment beyond what the Board has recommended, because there's a lot of nuances out there. It's not going to be solved by changing (iii). It's just not going to be. Thoughts that I have is, the feed provision needs to go to the feed section. Okay? The feed provision was originally in the feed exception, in the feed section. What happened was that the whole herd conversion was in the first proposal. Commoners didn't want the whole herd conversion, so it came out of the second proposal. Then we heard from people who said, yes, we have to have the whole herd conversion. So it went into the final Rule. But the first proposal had the feed provisions in the feed section. And things got messed up, when the feed provision got added to the origin of livestock section. So that's what messed it up to begin with. So one of the things that's going to have to happen is that's going to have to come out and go to the feed section.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Another question I would raise is, all right, responsibly connected parties, and I touched on this a little bit, can responsibly connected parties of an operation go out and start more dairies and use the 12- month provision? I think that has to be considered. Okay? So think outside the box. Think beyond what the Board has recommended. Look at the regulations as they relate to the herd conversion. Also look at the breeders stock provision and then go ahead and tell us what you think needs to be done with origin of livestock. Because those comments would be valuable as we go ahead and develop the rule for origin of livestock, which is a separate rulemaking. And it's been done before. The pasture rule when we weren't looking for comments on pasture. When we were doing Harvey, we got plenty of comments on pasture, and we considered those as well. Okay? All right, let's take a break. 10NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### minutes please. Then come on back and hopefully we'll have lots of additional comments and questions. (Brief recess.) MR. MATHEWS: All right, we're ready to get started with round two of comments. And so, it's all yours. There's a microphone over there someplace for you to use. And again, I remind everybody that we need everybody signed in. The court reporter needs that, especially for checking the spelling of names. MS. DEHNE: Well thanks, my name is Nicole Dehne and I coordinate the certification program for Vermont organic farmers. And I did want to start by thanking the USDA staff and Richard specifically for putting out this long awaited rule. And ultimately we're very happy with it. And the strength of the document is definitely that it requires dairy animals to be out on pasture and graze. So, I want to thank you for that.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### I don't want to be repetitive, but I do think it's an important point, although it seems like you started to address it a little bit or you know, you mentioned that you may have forgotten to put some stuff in about snow and ice. But we're definitely concerned about the potential prohibition of barnyards during the winter months. So, I'm just imagining, you know, telling our farmers in Vermont that we're prohibiting barnyards in the winter. And I do feel like, in doing so, we're going create a conflict in the Rule where we're requiring producers to minimize risk to soil and water quality. So we would definitely recommend adding inclement weather allowances for ruminants. So we can work on, as you're suggesting, providing language to do that. But I just was imagining sacrificial pasture used all winter in Vermont with cows up to their knees -- and you know, creating kind of knees in mud and creating aNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### health and safety issue and also a soil and water quality/nutrient management issue. And then there are just a few parts of the Rule that might seem a little prescriptive, from a certifier's perspective as far as regulations. So, you know, for some of the parts where the producer is required to clean their water troughs on a weekly basis, and how do we verify that? And then, you know, from a pregnant woman's perspective on due dates and dry cows being in, you know, a week before and after birth, I mean, I guess we can base it on the due date, but, you know, I can give birth at anytime, so at this point, and it could be two weeks past my due date, so, you know, just kind of keeping those things in mind from a certifier's perspective on how to verify but -- I need to get confined immediately. But, thanks. MR. JODARSKI: Good morning. My name's Guy Jodarski. I'm a veterinarian and I work with organic producers primarily, alsoNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### some grazers throughout the country. And I've had the privilege to travel from Maine to California and see organic dairies throughout the country. And I thank you for getting the rule this far. And I know a lot of people in this room were instrumental in pushing this along and so I want to thank all of you folks to for what you've done. And, you know, the difficulty now is in the interpretation and the enforcement. And I don't really envy the certifying agencies when going through this. And, so I'd like to delve into a couple of these little rules that'll, I'm sure, will be hashed out further. But Dr. Kathy Soder's point was very good about the dry matter intake. And I'd just like to expand on that a little bit. It's very difficult to measure directly, if not impossible, dry matter intake from pasture. And so we do that calculation by difference, in most cases. And so, what we are asking for hereNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### is a -- we're only allowing a maximum of 70% of the dry matter to be fed not non-pasture. And the difficulty here is with using a straight figure of 3%, the .03 in 205.237 Sections (c) Section (2). When you document the dry matter demand of each class. This is at the .03 times the bodyweight is 3% dry matter intake. Now, cows that are producing milk, to any extent, will exceed that. And so 4% would be real easy. Some good cows will be a lot higher than 4% of bodyweight. And so, in effect, I just want to make you aware of what you are doing here by setting this at 3% is you're actually making a more stringent rule than what it states explicitly. Now let me explain that. What I mean is, if you have a cow, let's just take that 30%. Let's take a 1000 pound cow, let's take a Jersey cow that's milking. So we're saying that she's eating 30 pounds of dry matter. If in fact she's producing milk, she may be eating 4% or 40 pounds of dry matter.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### So if we're doing the calculation based on a 30 pound dry matter intake, we're going to limit her to 21 pounds fed feed. If in actuality she needs 40 pound to support her milk production, she's going to have to eat 19 pounds of pasture, not 9 pounds of pasture. So, in effect, you're making the pasture rule much more stringent. It's pushing it closer to 50%. Now that may be okay. And for most grazers it's fine. They're in the 70% or more during the grazing season. But there are a lot of people that are on the edge of this that really push to the 30% edge. And so, I think Dr. Soder's suggestion of going to a table, looking at production bodyweights, expanding it beyond just 3% is probably a good idea. And then the other issue in the rulemaking that I'd like to address is the inclement weather. And that comes down to, there is a bit of a, let's say, a competitionNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### between dairymen around the country, between small dairymen and large dairymen. A lot of it's a mindset. In fact we do have one marketplace, but there is the idea, a lot of family size operations that I've worked with have the idea that if we could just stop the larger dairies, the large organic dairies, our markets going to improve. We need to look at this Rule very closely because this -- the way this is written right now there are a lot of small family dairies that house their cattle in stall barns in the winter that will no longer be allowed to do that. And so, if the intention was just to shut off big dairies in the West, it's also going to make us in the northern climates get our cattle out more. Now having said that, it is possible to out-winter cattle. And I see it more and more. I'm from Wisconsin and even in far northern Wisconsin people can keep dairy cattle out through the winter. It does take wind breaks. It does take bedding. ItNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### does take some management but there are a lot of people that just put their cows out after milking to clean the barn for an hour or two everyday. And so this is a big issue for the small family farms that are pushing for this rule. They need to know go into this with their eyes open that the way it's stated right now, it's no longer going to be allowed. So, my proposal would be, and I'll do a written comment on this, but on 205.239 (c) number (4), to me the easiest would be, instead of just saying in the case of goats, saying in the case of lactating dairy cattle and goats during periods of inclement weather. It would give the exception to lactating dairy cows. Thank you. MR. KARREMAN: Hugh Karreman, veterinarian in Lancaster County. I work with about 80 or so certified organic dairy herds. I'm glad to see one of my guys is here today. And I'm also on the National Organic Standards Board. Chair of the livestockNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### committee, although my comments here today are not part of the official comments from the committee. We hope to have one maybe by the meeting in November. Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you Richard for all the hard work you've done. If I could give you an honorary Ph.D. in pasture regulation management, you got it man. Job well done. I just think everyone's comments so far really are accurate and I want to echo them. I think Dr. Jodarski's last comments were very on the mark, totally. And I just want to add on that as far as the animals in the wintertime in the tie stalls, that's most of my farmers in my area, they're going to have some readjusting to do if this goes into effect as is. And so I would suggest that perhaps, you know, some of the farmers do put their cows out a lot, out on the ground when its frozen and whatnot if it's good weather, down in southern Pennsylvania and that's great. But perhaps there should beNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### also allowance for barnyards with improved management of barnyards. Just so maybe the cows aren't, as your intent is so that they're outside, but maybe not out on the pasture itself in that bad weather, but at least not tied in 22 hours a day like Dr. Jodarski mentioned and I agree with. Although that does give very good individual cow care, I must say. The other thing is I really like the Regulation in there, the calves getting hay. You say from day seven. I've already heard from one person I know just privately, he said, well why not day five or day 10? Kind of arbitrary. Just do it from birth. Just do it from birth. It's a forage, so they get used to forage right off the bat when they have to be pastured at six months of age. The other oh, back just for a moment to the barnyard thing and the inclement weather. I don't know what the EU regulations say, but perhaps we should look to themNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### because I think they have something happening in 2010 regarding confinement and whatnot with their herds. Also, someone mentioned to me privately, as well, would dry matter intake be, can you also calculate that or use that after the killing frost? Because cows do graze after the killing frost. After your technical growing season is done, would they be allowed to consider that as part of their feed ration. That was someone from the West that asked me that on the phone. And then the stream bank fencing I think is excellent. I always push for that. That's great. And it does, some people would say, well, you know, what if the EQIP program doesn't have money for the subsidization of stream bank fencing? So many farmers just put up a simple single wire. It works just fine. So, perhaps that could somehow be put in there, even a simple single wire, instead of referencing EQIP, while although that's good,NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### but they might not have funding. But in general, I just want to say that I think this whole document is great, even if you had to keep it exactly as it is. I think it just needs some tweaking around the edges. I think everyone here is very grateful to your very hard work and it will create a very bright line between organic and conventional, and that's exactly what we need. Thank you. MR. GARDINER: Jim Gardiner, average size dairy farmer. What I find when I travel across this country is that whether you're milking 3000 cows conventional or organic, or 50 cows, usually takes one person per 50 cows. So I'm an average farmer; in organics. I do want to thank you very much for doing a really good job on this. And I agree with Hugh on the fact that there should be some kind of reward or label placed upon you for the ultimate specialist on all the research you've had to do to get this ruleNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### into place. A few of the comments I would have, I do agree with, you know, like placing your calves on forage as soon as possible. To monitor a rule where they always have their hay, you know, above up in a hay rack, that's a little bit more specific I think than what should be able to be patrolled possibly. Okay? I know there's a lot of people that try to do a good job and they do a good job without having to have hay racks. Okay. For whatever that's worth. And, okay as far as allowing the animals out -- I'll give you a little scenario of what we do on our farm, okay. We live in a northern climate. During the wintertime -- during the summertime our cows Β their -- their ration is pasture and molasses and minerals. So, their dry matter intake, other than a small portion for the dry matter that's in molasses, which is 75% dry matter, comes from pasture. So it is a very doable RuleNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### that you have written here as far as focusing on pasture, that's good. During the wintertime when the weather changes, which it looks like it's starting to change for us right now outside, you know, it's getting cooler and it's rainy, our cows, during the daytime, are able to go out after milking and they stay out all day. But they eat outside all day. We feed them balage outside. They are on a sacrificial, you know, piece of land that we use predominantly for that. It's receded back and provides for vegetation and actually allowed to rest during the growing season, so that that ground can aerate itself and be brought back to life, you know, before it's used again during the winter season. But when they go outside, they stay out all day long whether it's cold, snowy, rainy. And they really enjoy it. We've had great success with production, with animal condition. The health of the animals has been fantastic. That practice has been takingNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### place for about 12 years on our farm. We find that by feeding the balage outside their intake is fantastic. When they come in at night, and some of the points were already made as far as the inclement weather, especially at night if you notice the activity, the natural inclination for cows, during the day their activity is higher, during the night their activity has a tendency to be lower anyway and bringing them into a stall barn at night, where it's dry, cool, you know, clean and lots of good, as Lisa said, organic bedding, okay, it really provides for a good environment where they can utilize all the feedstuffs they've taken in during the day. But what we have tried to do during the winter is emulate what is going on in the summer, only it is from a stored feed source instead of a fresh feed source, Okay. So, a good rule. A little tweaking on the rules there for having your animals in for a littleNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### longer period of time would be good. As far as the streams, I'm in total agreement, you know, with having Χ having, you know, no feces material in the streams or anything like that. But I guess my question would be in the writing, would it be listed as an approved soil and water, you know our soil and water districts do a lot of work on helping people set up stream crossings and things like that. And lots of times they may not be elevated or anything like that, but they are allowed to cross in order to get through. You know, so to have them totally out of a stream 100% of the time, that would take out of a lot of grazing areas. And so, if-- if that could be included, that we would have, you know, an approved crossing in-- in the writing, I think that would be very beneficial. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. If you would allow me to -- MR. GARDINER: Sure.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. MATHEWS: That's a good comment. Our intention was not to eliminate stream crossings. It's more to eliminate them from actually grazing right up to and passing through the streams on a regular basis. I mean it's intended for the stream that runs through the pasture, more than moving them from one pasture to another. Okay? MR. GARDINER: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: Okay? So, I would recommend that you flesh set out in additional comments and send that our way. MR. GARDINER: Okay, very good. Let's see, I've got that one taken care of. Your origin of livestock, of course, I realize you're going to be working on that. The points you made are very interesting, and I know as much as the pasture rule has been an object of improvement, and I think you've gone a long ways to really improving it, it's very impressive. The livestock Rule, or origin, I'mNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### sure, like you said is going to be a tough one to tackle, but I do believe that if common sense prevails and I believe that this rule here that you've gotten out shows a lot of it, I'm confident that the process, hopefully, through what we learn in this one, would be a shorter process. That would be a huge key for all of us in the organic industry. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: I'm hoping so. On that origin of livestock, it just passed through my head, another example of a problem, if you've got somebody who has converted, and everything has to be from last third of gestation to be brought onto your farm, one of the other things that you might want to consider is what happens if your neighbor decides to go out of organic production and your neighbor's cows were converted using the 12 month. You can't buy them. Do you intend to do that? Just a question. Because at that point, they're not last third of gestation. You can only bringNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### on last third of gestation. He's got perfectly good, I guess, organic cows. I mean the milk's been going into the organic consumer's refrigerator. But under that proposal, the way it's been made, you can't buy your neighbors cow that was converted. And that may be what you want. I don't know. But it's another one of those 100 different questions that I have on origin of livestock. Next speaker please. MR. MORRISON: Steve Morrison again. I'd just like to echo the idea that in section 205.239 -- MR. MATHEWS: Please come back up to these mics because -- MR. MORRISON: Yes. Okay. MR. MATHEWS: -- that's where the court reporter's getting his data. MR. MORRISON: I'd like to echo the comment in reference to 205.239 (c), which includes that ruminants may be temporarily denied access to pasture during periods ofNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### inclement weather, which applies currently to, in this proposal, to goats. Maybe that could be amended to include goats as well as cows, lactating dairy cows. I think that's an important exemption especially in areas where the likelihood of dangerously inclement weather is high, such as in the Northeast. MR. KARREMAN: Hugh Karreman again. And actually, as Chair of livestock at OSB, can I ask you, is the NOP going to give NOSB guidance or input upon what you would like to see towards an origin of livestock rule. Or is that totally up to us, from the public as a sounding board. And, the other thing is if the NOSB does not come up with another origin of livestock proposal as we have, which we thought was okay, but hearing your reasons today makes a lot of sense. To keep that new rule coming along, you don't have to get something new from us amending our first position, do you? MR. MATHEWS: No, we don't have toNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### get anything new from the Organic Standards Board. But you guys are more than welcome to take another look at the recommendation and submit us something else if you would like. Our plan is to just try and move forward with it. But, I would love to have some additional thought put into it by the Board and have the Board submit us an amended recommendation. MR. KARREMAN: Does that help your behind the scenes work, which obviously you've done a lot of with the OMB and SBA and all that, to have a Board recommendation that perhaps reflects a little more of what's been discussed here? MR. MATHEWS: Well, the Board has already made a recommendation. And what I would do is, I would explain within the regulation that we got the Board's recommendation and while we appreciate the Board's recommendation, we see some issues that are the result of that. And what we would do is recommend how we think that weNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### achieve the intent of the Board. Because we know what your intent is. Or at least we think we know what your intent is. But when we go and try to put it into rulemaking, that intent impacts other provisions within the Regulations. And so that's what we would be looking at. And we would come up with a proposal that addresses such things as moving the 80/20, we would remove it. Because it's obsolete. For the other feed, I would move it to the feed provision. I would take a very hard line on what you've recommended. Which means that every animal from the future would be last third of gestation because that's what you've told us, as the Board. And so that's the interpretation that we would take. So we would do a wholesale rewrite of the 236(a)(2), plus we would do a rewrite on the breeders stock. Which would say only organic breeders stock could be brought onto the farm. MR. KARREMAN: And would it be--NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### should it be only on ruminants or also poultry and other species? You know, to have it across-the-board, last third of gestation -- MR. MATHEWS: Well, across-the-board last third of gestation applies to everything except for poultry and dairy. So it already applies to everything. So the only thing that we're really doing is that we're tightening the rule on dairy. So that's what you would be doing. So we're only addressing it from the dairy side, because other than chickens, from the second day after hatching, dairy is the only livestock that is allowed to be transitioned into organic. And what we would be doing, based on what the Board has recommended is saying, this is a one-time deal. If you are a conventional farmer and you want to become organic, we'll let you convert your land and your animals. Now, other factors that come into that Hugh, okay, he's got his animals, some animals are born onto the farm. Can heNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### buy animals and bring them onto the farm during the transition period? Those are the kinds of things that need to be answered. And so, what my interpretation would be, any animal that is on the farm at the time that the transition starts, any animal born on the farm during the transition would be good to go. But the farmer would not be able to buy animals and bring them on during the transition period. So, I mean, those nuances have to be considered as well. So, I mean, just to reinforce that there's a lot of things to think about when you go to change a Regulation. Yes sir? MR. STOLTZFOOS: I'm Roman Stoltzfoos from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I've been in organic dairy since 1990. Certified since `95. We have a family farm and we greatly appreciate the effort that has been put forth to protect what the true spirit and meaning of organic pasturing is. And we very much appreciate the effort that you have putNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### forth Richard and whoever works with you. And the only thing I would like to say is I would like to see all farmers rally behind this and be willing to change and think outside of the box and do what's right for livestock and soil. And I really appreciate what has been happening here because I think it will answer a lot of the issues. There will be small farms in my area that will not comply to this, I'm sure of that. And I think now is as good a time as any to exit. Don't you? I mean, we obviously have more supply than we need. We would like to grow this industry but I think we need to grow it right, and not fast. MS. ARNOLD: I'm Kathie Arnold. My husband, brother-in-law and I have a farm about an hour east of here. And I have to say that Thursday was a day that I've been looking forward to for years. To actually go to the computer and read what work had been done over the last several years and put into thisNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### proposed rule. So, thank you for bringing it to that point. And, I do feel it's just wonderful to see that the 30% minimum dry matter intake is in here. That has to be maintained throughout the growing season and like so many people have said, you know, that will just add so much to the integrity of organic dairy and allow our consumers to know that, what they expect is truly what they will be receiving. I'm very glad to see the clarifications you've done on the issues around bedding and agricultural products in feed additives and supplements. I guess I also want to just tell you a little bit about our farm. We have 130 cows and we graze them for 200 days, at least 200 days a year. Our animals from birth on up through lactating dry cows are all out on pasture and the the dry cows, bred heifers, breeding age heifers and yearlings, their diet is 100% pasture during the growing season. And so, you know, duringNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### the growing season, our animals are, you know, intensively managed on pasture. But, I do have concern about continuing to manage on pasture during the non-growing season. And I know for a number of farms, from Oregon where they have an extensive or rainy season, to northern climates where, because of topography orbecause of the farm is on clay soils, lowlaying clay soils, that meeting the definition and intent of the sacrificial pasture may be impossible on some farms and may be abrogating their nutrient management plans. And certainly I will be working with many others to submit very constructive comments. But overall, I'm just so very pleased with the intent that has been so clearly put out in this rule. I do have one other question. There's not really any mention of drought. And what are your thoughts in terms of, you know, if farms, where they normally don't have drought and soNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### they don't have irrigation equipment, come into a period of drought. How could that be handled? MR. MATHEWS: Well, first of all, I think that the organic systems plan should be designed so that you are growing throughout the growing season. So, you need to be alternating crops and you should be looking for some crops that can withstand the August heat and provide food value to the animals. The other provision, there is a situation in there where if there was a drought that was declared by the Secretary of Agriculture as a natural disaster, we would take that into consideration. And the regs already provide for those extreme situations, so that, you wouldn't get out of feeding organic feed, but you could be exempted from the 30% DMI. MS. ARNOLD: Okay. Great. Thank you. And thanks for so much for all your hard work. MR. MATHEWS: Okay.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. PERRY: My name is Robert Perry. I work for NOFA New York as an inspector, enforcer of the rule. I also work as a dairy educator for transitioning to organic dairy farms. I'll try not to get started here, but, I've been involved in organic for over 25 years and I've got a very vivid imagination. And, 365 day a year pasture is stretching my imagination. I go out and enforce the rule as an inspector. I stretched the rule in some cases, due to the circumstances at the farm on any given day. I guess since we're talking about pasture, livestock, maybe we should reconsider bagbalm as a medication, because if we're going to graze cows in the winter in the Northeast, bagbalm and Dr. Naylor, some of these products were invented in the North country for a reason. And, actually will be good for Hugh Karreman and some other veterinarians because udder health and herd health will certainly put them back on theNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### road in the winter dealing with downed cows and frozen teats and other things. The other question I have is, if the NOP would provide guidance to the certifiers about the audit trail for enforcement of this Pasture Regulation. I know there's a clause in one of the sections about maintaining an audit trail for nutrient management on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. I really have to struggle with many of the farmers to provide an audit trail of purchased feeds on a yearly basis, much less bringing it down to a daily basis. Maybe we could use Google Earth and just do digital imaging of our farms to see if in fact they do have those cows out on any given day. It's interesting, we recently had a field day and a representative from, I believe, Cornell cooperative extension presented a program about a new RMA program where you can get crop insurance for your pastures. And this might be a program thatNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### our farmers might look into because certainly grazing on some of these pastures, a lot of them have a hard time recovering by April or May of the following year, much less recovering of all. So that's just something that hopefully we can insert some language there that will help that. MR. MATHEWS: Could I interrupt for a minute? MR. PERRY: Absolutely. MR. MATHEWS: With regard to having trouble recovering, what's the cause of that? MR. PERRY: Compaction, erosion, just you know, environmental stress. Rocks, clay. MR. MATHEWS: Are the animals on there all the time? MR. PERRY: Well, I mean -- MR. MATHEWS: I mean, are they rotating them across different pastures? MR. PERRY: Well, we are proposing a sacrificial pasture and --NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. MATHEWS: Right. MR. PERRY: And I guess my-- my interpretation of many of the pastures that I see is it's-- it's been a sacrificial pasture from day one. It's not good for anything else. MR. MATHEWS: I think that we've addressed that in the Regulation that the pasture has to be managed as if it was a crop. And so you would look at the crop provisions and it talks, you would have to be seeding. And I mean, you shouldn't be overgrazing your pasture. MR. PERRY: I understand that. MR. MATHEWS: I mean, they need to have good pasture practice standards. And that's what we are asking them to delineate within their organic systems plan. MR. PERRY: But, you also have to take into consideration that some of these farms have been in the family for 100 years or more and, well, my family farm's been in theNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### family since 1794. I have a family cemetery down the road that I'm the president of the cemetery association. And I go down there and just imagine digging these graves by hand. There's boulders and cobbles in there that will choke a backhoe. And I used to ask my dad, how come we never moved? How come you didn't move to Yates County, or somewhere where there's good soil? And, you know, that's what tradition is. And, unlike some of our new New Age farms coming on, farming is a tradition. It's a lifestyle that people are stuck too. You know, they are stuck to this land and, you know, you got a boulder patch and stream out in back of the barn, that pasture is harder to come by than you can imagine. The other issue is, are we going to provide shade in the winter? Water in the pasture? Many of the pastures use streams for watering. Without going out there with an ax, I have a pond it can easily freeze 18 to 20NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### inches deep in the winter. Those are just issues that we have to deal with. I also, before I sit down, I look around the room here and I just see some pioneers in organic and dairy. Pat Kane over here is one of the foundations of NOFA, and I don't know how we got this complicated. But, all I can say is good luck for the next 20 years. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Your comments reminded me of one thing that we've included in there that you have to fence off the water. But we've also asked for data on the impact of that. And the reason why I mention this is that throughout the preamble, we talk about what we see as the economic impact or the regulatory impact or the paperwork burden of these changes. And we've asked for the public to give us feedback on that. So, I encourage you to read the preamble. Look for where we've asked for data and to also provide that in your comments. Yes sir. MR. STOLTZFOOS: I'm JohnNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Stoltzfoos from Whitesville, New York. If you talk about cold-weather, if you look at a seed map, we're that little dot right in the Pennsylvania-New York border. So we're very cold there. I have some concern about this with cold weather and cows outside in freezing temperature with freezing tits. But, in the meantime, we're also, on our farm, we are making a pen pack down in our woods this year. We had intended to do this during the summer. So our cows are going to be out 24-7, 365 days. We kind of thought, maybe, when a cow freshens and right after she's fresh, we might have to keep her in like a week or so in a little bit warmer climate until her udder smoothes up again. But overall, I think it looks real good for us. I know that's going to be a big issue about frozen teats in the North country. We might have to deal with it a little bit too on ours. But I thank you very much for what you did for our pasture issues.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. JOHNSON: Dave Johnson again. I'm not a goat farmer and I'm not sure how the goat farmers managed to get such clout. But how did the rule come about that only goats have the privilege of being excluded from pasture during inclement weather? MR. MATHEWS: Goats are nowhere near as hearty as a cow. MR. JOHNSON: Okay, and second question I have is, when I look at the definition of inclement weather, I can picture some places in the United States that have inclement weather 365 days a year. So I'm really concerned about the goat farmers in Alaska. MR. MATHEWS: I would recommend that you put your comments with regard to inclement weather into writing and send them to us. If you've got a better definition, let us know. MR. NELSON: Ed, this one doesn't work, right. Can I take it away? MR. MATHEWS: It's connected to theNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### -- that microphone is connected to -- nobody? MR. NELSON: This one. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. MS. ZUCK: Doesn't look like it's connected to anything. Thanks. Hello. I'm Leslie Zuck and I didn't sign up yet, but I will, promise. It's Z-U-C-K. I'm the director of Pennsylvania Certified Organic and -- closer to the mic -- there we go. I have to see too, how do I do that? So, I was looking at -- we will definitely submit some very constructive comments. We'll start on those right away. And I have some concerns about the changes to the temporary confinement part of the rule. And I think that's what you're hearing a lot today as well. No surprises there. But I was wondering when you did that,split it out between the ruminants versus nonruminants, if you did give some consideration to how that new definition of inclement weather might affect the other species.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Particularly, I'm concerned about poultry, right now. And if, you know, you have considered that great, if you want comments on that we'd be happy to provide some. I suspect that the poultryoperations, now we would consider coldweather, rainy weather, those types of things to be allowed to bring those birds inside because it does affect their health. It may not kill them. It may not cause permanent damage, but it is a concern for causing illness and such. And then, the other question I have regarding the ruminants not being allowed to be confined, being allowed to be confined for those specific reasons. I was wondering as far as -- I was trying to think of things that we do get requests for confining animals. And one of them is predator problems. Now, those are usually temporary, but if they do have some predator issues on the farm and they need to take care of them, whether it's by trappingNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### or other means of dispatch, they will want to keep those animals in. Outbreaks of contagious diseases in the region, that's another concern. And then, maybe I missed this, but, are you -- I think what you're saying is that you also don't want the animals to be, the cows to be inside at night, just because it's night. So they should be outside all the time. So, those are my questions. MR. MATHEWS: Yes. The animals outside all day, every day -- MS. ZUCK: And night? MR. MATHEWS: -- except for -- yes. 24 hours a day. MS. ZUCK: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: And you're welcome to comment on that. But, yes, the intent is that, except for those times listed, the animal would be outside. MS. ZUCK: And so the inclement weather change in that definition, well I shouldn't say change, but the clarificationNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### because it really wasn't defined before, affect on the other species of livestock, is that something you would also request comments on or is that not negotiable? MR. MATHEWS: You are free to comment on anything in there. So, if you believe that the definition has impacts in other places, please let us know. MS. FLACK: I'm Sarah Flack from Vermont. And I've been an organic inspector for maybe 15 years or so. And I'm also a grazing consultant and have helped a lot of farmers come up with grazing plans to meet the pasture requirements. And I have three areas that haven't been covered in a lot of detail yet, in the comments yet. First of all let me say, thank you. And to have the 30% in there, and have it not be a stocking rate was really excellent. And that it covers the whole grazing season also, the whole growing season is great. I'm wondering how to get the cows bred if you'reNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### doing AI and you need to leave the cow locked in the barn for the day when the breeder comes. So I think that maybe could get added in there under illness or something like that.

Generally, you tie the cow up or put it in a pen in the free stall, and the breeder shows up sometime during the day and then you let her out at night. So it's a very short temporary confinement. But I thought it could be overlooked in here. The other is, I wanted to say something else about sacrifice pastures, because I've worked with farmers who have tried sacrifice pastures in the northern climates before, in the winter. And these were the, you know, the cutting edge grazers who were going to do the 365 day a year grazing. And they turned out into various soil types and conditions all over the northeast in the northern climates and some of them did really well and continued to leaveNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### the cows out for the whole year in those climates. And some found that they had soil conditions and cow health conditions that didn't allow them to continue to do that. And so, particularly the farmers who had nutrient management issues, that really put their soil and water resources at risk due to the, you know, location of their farm and the fact that the winter conditions are, you know, four to six months of the year. They couldn't come up with enough land to rotate through these sacrifice pastures, as is described in the rule as it's currently written -- the new proposed rule. And so, they were able to go to NRCS and say hey look we've created a big nutrient management problem, what do you think that we should do? And NRCS has gone to those farms, and all over the North, we've got really great working relationships with NRCS, who have cost-shared to build really nice barnyards with good nutrient management and manureNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### containment systems, so that their soil and water resources are no longer at risk. And I would really hate to see them being forced to go back to the sacrifice pastures that have been replaced with, you know, USDA and NRCS cost-sharing to allow them to have these, now really nice systems to keep the manure out of the water. I also want to say that the way the dry matter demand is being calculated in the current rule, it's already been mentioned by two or three folks, that would definitely need to be adjusted so that it is a lot easier for the certifiers to come up with an accurate number of, you know, this is the amount of dry matter that a cow or a sheep or a beef animal is currently eating. The 3% of bodyweight just doesn't work across the board. And there's a lot of good information out there that'll show very scientifically valid ways of calculating what that demand should be. So, but, thank you for the rule.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Thank you for making it so strict, and for really listening to our concerns as farmers and the consumer concern about pasture. MR. MATHEWS: Just one comment on the DMI issue. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that what we've got is perfect. But what we also want to take into consideration is that we need to make it easy for the farmer to be able to come up with the answers to that. So any comments that we receive, I would hope that they would flush out in greater detail what you think it should be. But do that in consideration of the farmer as well. So that we're doing something that isn't overburdening the farmer as far as trying to calculate these things out. Okay? MS. COEHOORN: Hi, I'm Darlene Coehoorn, a Midwest dairy farmer. My husband Dan and I milk about between 50 and 60 cows. My comments -- I want to thank you first, you know, for getting this rule out. At least getting us this far. I, too, have concernsNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### with the increment weather, but my perspective on that comes from a little different angle. I am concerned about what our consumers will think of me if I leave my cattle out when it is too cold and too miserable for them to be there. From an animal welfare standard, I mean, much of what we do is because of what the consumer perceives that we should be doing. And, I don't think, I mean, they do appreciate and they really want them on pasture, but we don't have a 365-day growing season. There is no benefit to them to being out there on pasture when there is no pasture. And, I really feel it's important that we consider the health and welfare of that animal as well. Another point, we had a question where you to change the definitional of livestock to include any bee, cattle, sheep, goat, swine, poultry, equine animals used for food or in the production of food, fiber, feed or other agricultural based consumer products.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### Fish used for food, wild or domesticated game or other non-plant life. Is that to include the draft forces that our Amish farmers would use to produce feed? Because, now, I mean, as it stands right now, I am assuming that they are not required to feed organic feed to those horses. And the horses are not intended for food. So are they also subject to this Regulation, because they are producing feed for organic production. MR. MATHEWS: That part of the definition has not changed. And so for horses for the production of food, I guess it would depend on how you interpret the production of food, so I would recommend that you send in comments on how we're supposed to interpret that. MS. COEHOORN: I don't have any horses -- MR. MATHEWS: But, right now a strict interpretation of that would be that yes, the horses on that organic farm should beNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### fed organically. They should be managed organically. MS. COEHOORN: We just thought the question should come up because I don't believe we have any Amish-- MR. MATHEWS: Yes. MS. COEHOORN: --presence and they may, but -- MR. MATHEWS: Because that's not a new addition to the definition. MS. COEHOORN: Right, but these horses truly are not certified organic. MR. MATHEWS: Right. MS. COEHOORN: They're -- MR. MATHEWS: I understand. MS. COEHOORN: I mean that would be the same as if-- I would probably have to certify my tractor. MR. MATHEWS: I understand that. And so, I guess what we need to do is to receive your comments because that can be interpreted two ways. And so, it'd be good ifNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### you gave us some comment on that as well. MS. COEHOORN: Can I just ask you further, if you could elaborate why equine would be included in there as it is not an animal that is allowed to be slaughtered in this country? MR. MATHEWS: Because it's in the statute. Yes, and as Leslie says, this is applied worldwide and there are horses in some countries that are used for food. And, if we develop pet standards, we could have horses in pet food. So, it's always been in the standard and so -- MR. PERKINS: Henry Perkins again. If we are going to have to certify that our horses are used in production of food, then I have occasionally hired people, do I have to certify that they are too? And this is sort of facetious. You don't have to answer that. MR. MATHEWS: Well Henry, the answer I would give is that definition does raise some questions. It's not a newNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### provision. It's in the statute. And if we need further clarification on that, by all means, please submit your comments and we'll look at how we might be able to provide further clarification. MS. SHIVERA: Hi, I'm Diane Shivera and I work for Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association. I'm the organic livestock specialist. I've been there about 10 years working with the dairy farmers and other livestock farmers too. So I'd also from MOFGA like to thank you for the rule. I know our farmers have been anxious for this for a long time. So they really appreciate it. And, I have to voice all the concerns that all the other people are having too, so, just to reiterate all the information about the inclement weather and everything. And the managing for 3% is going to be difficult, and isn't really very realistic. The other thing, just a little odd one that I've noticed and maybe I'm reading itNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### wrong but in 205.239 (f), it says that ruminants aren't allowed to pollute. I think maybe you mean that to say all livestock,because you really don't want the nonruminants out there polluting their environment either. So, just an odd little bit. So, that's it. Thank you very much. MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? MS. KEEFE: Hi, I'm Sally Keefe from with the Royal Organic Dairy. We are an organic dairy producer. We operate five dairy farms in Colorado and Texas. We also are an organic dairy processor. We handle all the milk from our farms in our own processing plant in Colorado. Thank you very much for getting the Rule out and for your perseverance through what I think we could all agree was a very long process. I noticed during your speech that you mentioned that a voluminous docket had been assembled. And yesterday, I actually tried to find an electronic or actual readingNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### room where people could review the materials that you relied on for putting the proposal together. Like the 3% that's been coming up today and things like that. I wasn't able to find such a place. I think you would be very helpful to the community as we consider our comments over the next couple of months and was wondering about how that information would be made available? MR. MATHEWS: I guess I'm not following. This is what is published. And it's got umpteen pages of preamble. And that's what I meant by the docket. MS. KEEFE: Okay. Well specifically, I'm wondering about the administrative record. When I called yesterday to request the administrative record, I was referred to an NOSB web site. And I believe that the program should have an administrative record available for the review. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: And for furtherNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### clarification, what do you mean by administrative record? I mean, the Board's recommendations that are mentioned in here are all on the web site. And so the comments -- MS. KEEFE: Within the preamble and also -- MR. MATHEWS: Yes. MS. KEEFE: -- and also within the rule, for example, there's -- there's not information provided on the justification for why you picked 3% on the DMI and things like that. And so I was just hoping -- MR. MATHEWS: You mean 30% for the dry matter -- MS. KEEFE: Sorry, 3% for the bodyweight for the calculation in the dry matter fed. And so that was the type of information I was hoping to better understand your reasoning, so as -- MR. MATHEWS: Out of this. Out of this. MS. KEEFE: And so, are youNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### planning to put a reading room together that includes all of those different sources or do you -- MR. MATHEWS: No. MS. KEEFE: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: I mean, it would be next to impossible for me to go back and pull out every document that I read, you know over several months as I was preparing to develop this pasture rule, because as Hugh pointed out, I had to go to school. I had to go to school to learn about pasture. I know I was at a meeting one time with Henry Perkins and I'm sure he'll verify this. Where are you Henry? You're over there. Henry Perkins, I remember telling the dairy farmers, now, you got to really tell us what you want us to do because we're bureaucrats in Washington, we're not dairy farmers. And so, I went to school and I read voluminous stuff and did a searching and picked out stuff. And, there's nothing in there that isn't already publishedNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### someplace else. So, I don't know -- MS. KEEFE: Okay, thank -- MR. MATHEWS: I don't know if I could recreate it for you. MS. KEEFE: Thank you again, thank you for your perseverance and all your time in school. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Babak's telling me that I guess that file drawer that I have, if you had specific questions on a specific section, send me a freedom of information request and I'll go through the file cabinet and pull it out and I'll send it to you. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: OK, thanks. I'm Emily Brown-Rosen again -- MR. MATHEWS: Wait a minute -- MS. BROWN-ROSEN: You want to add to that? MR. MATHEWS: She wants to say something again. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: Please go to the otherNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### mic as well, please. MS. KEEFE: Hi, it's Sally Keefe again. My reading room suggestion was frankly an attempt to avoid a voluminous -- I know that the Freedom Of Information Act request can be very burdensome on the program and so that was part of my suggestion was to avoid that type of burden on the program. MR. MATHEWS: Yes, well, just let me know what you want. And, I'll go through -- I know that I printed it out most of this stuff and I'll start searching for the document that is applicable to what it is you're asking for. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Hi Richard, I have one more question, just to be clear on the calculations that we're expecting on the 30% DMI. It says during the growing season, producers shall provide not more than average of 70% demand from dry matter blah, blah, blah, and then you go on to give specific requirements for monthly recordkeeping, as well as it mentions that the farmers areNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### supposed to have daily recordkeeping. The point is it averaged over the whole growing season or is it a monthly calculation that we're looking at? Which gets back to the drought question. I mean, if their monthly average is not 30%, are they, you know, subject of noncompliance? MR. MATHEWS: No, what we're asking for them to do is to document their feed ration on a monthly basis. So, say the first of each month, they would document what the ration is for that month. The dry matter is averaged over the total grazing season. Okay? It's not a daily 30%. So, you can have 90% one-day, 10% another. Or zero on a given day because of drought or whatever. But, it's the average over the entire grazing season. And as far as daily is concerned -- the only thing you're documenting is -- on a daily basis, you should be documenting that your animals are out on pasture. We're not looking for a lot of dailyNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### recordkeeping beyond which you already do, I'm saying that my animals were out on pasture this day. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Okay. Thanks. It does say document how much dry matter is fed daily to each class of animal. So, that's what led me to think that it was daily. MR. MATHEWS: Yes. You're talking about the 70% part? Is that where you're coming from? MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Well, it's in the feed section under -- MR. MATHEWS: OK. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: --(c)(2). So-- MR. MATHEWS: Yes. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: It's (2)-- MR. MATHEWS: Yes. Okay. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Yes, 237(c)-- MR. MATHEWS: Yes. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: 237(c)(2) and (3). And (4). MR. MATHEWS: You're documentingNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### the-- MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Document the percentage. MR. MATHEWS: Yes, but you don't have to do that on a daily basis. I mean, that's the daily dry matter need that's in your feed ration. MS. BROWN-ROSEN: Okay, that's a good clarification. MR. MATHEWS: Now, I'm not saying that you go out and calculate it every day. I mean, you've got -- you go out and once a month you do your feed ration and figure out what the daily need will be during that month and that is what you use at one time. MS. GRIFFIN: Hi, Siobhan Griffin. A lot of us Northeast producers are worried about the fact that the cows have to be out in the winter. Often conditions are not suitable for the cows to be out. I know there are consumers in my area that have called animal welfare because some of my neighbors haveNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### their cows out in cold windy conditions. And I don't think it's the intent of this pasture rule to have animals put in jeopardy in bad weather. In fact, Mr. Mathews suggested that there had been the intent to have inclement weather provisions to cover that. I consider myself a pretty hard-core hardcore grazer. We have made mistakes over the last 19 years since I've been grazing. Mostly in the winter, by pushing the issue on having the cows out and then finding out it was not appropriate for the health of the animal. I get 35 below, actual temperature, on my farm sometimes in the winter. Also, my pastures are open to the wind. So, on a daily basis in the winter, I use my judgment and experience as a farmer to decide if my lane ways and my pastures are too icy or not. A lot of times I can sand my lane way and get the cows up to the pasture for their access to outside. But, if the wind and the cold combines, so that, I take off my hat and myNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### hood, and my ears literally hurt being out in the wind, that temperature and combination will freeze the tits off a cow. One year, by mistake my hired guy left cows out while I was at a NOFA conference. Let them out to long in those conditions and I lost 10 cows to a terrible death. Their ends of their teats froze and then subsequently fell off. And once a cow does not have that teat sphincter to keep the bacteria out of her udder, she will die of E. coli or some environmental thing. Within a week, 10 cows were dead or on a truck. It was terrible. And I've learned the hard way in my 19 years with grazing, there's things we can do, like having cows in a sheltered woods where the wind is less of an issue. Things like that can be done. In my situation, I need to have access to the shelter of my barn in those conditions for my cows or it will be an animal welfare issue. And, I love my cows.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### They put a roof over my head and in exchange I take care of them the best I can. It involves lots of pasture. But if I have to do extra work and have them indoors protected from the wind, we need to do that. And I think, I want to submit specific recommendations to the NOSB on what temperatures and wind combinations would require that. And that's going to be different on my farm than everybody else's farm because every farm is different. And I urge everybody to submit conditions where it is not to the benefit of your cows and their health and well-being to be outdoors. And this will be an exemption for inclement severe weather in the winter. And I think they need to be specific and and then the NOSB can come up with something that is going cover at least most of us, hopefully all of us, and protect our cows. Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Anyone else? Everybody looks like they're ready to fallNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### asleep. Arden. MR. NELSON: Think we have enough time? My name is Arden Nelson. I'm a veterinarian and a dairy producer from Colorado. My comments today come to you on behalf of my wife and partner, Dr. Meg Catell, and myself only. I'm vice-president of the Western Organic Dairy Producers Alliance, but our comments will be forthcoming shortly, as a group. First of all, Richard Matthews, thank you. NOP, thank you. We've needed this a long time. The pasture rule is I think a huge step, but I remind you the first step, in a leveling the playing field for certified organic dairymen across this country. Consumers should have renewed faith in our integrity of producing milk underneath this new addition to the organic rule. The second part of accomplishing what we really need in the industry, comes with enforcement. And I would urge all of us as producers to look on our concerns and suggestions from theNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### certifier's standpoint and the ultimate goal of having this law enforced. Thank you, Richard Matthews. It's sorely needed. It's an ending and a beginning. Surprise, Ed. MR. MATHEWS: Anyone else? Let's not be bashful. Mr. Engelbert, you were rubbing your hands together -- MR. ENGELBERT: Yes. MR. MATHEWS: He looked like he was just getting ready to pounce. MR. ENGELBERT: My name is Kevin Engelbert, I'm a certified organic dairy farmer from upstate New York. One of the longtime dairymen that Robert has referred to; we've been in the organic for about 30 years now. And, I wasn't going to speak. I don't need to hear myself talk and I just wanted to say thank you for all you've done. I know it's a big step forward. The one point that hasn't been addressed is, and I hadn't understood this myself when I read the rule, this requirement of 365 days a year for allNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### animals over six months of age. Young calves that are six months old are about the size of a goat. And to require them to be outside on pasture in upstate New York or in a lot of northern conditions, excuse me, probably won't be -- you know, that definitely will be the animal welfare issue that also needs to be addressed. But again, I thank everybody for all their hard work and I'm glad we've gotten to this point, and I look forward to the implementation and enforcement of this rule. MR. MATHEWS: Okay. Again, please put any of those issues into writing to us and submit them to regs.gov. This gentleman over here was going to say something. MR. SEGALLA: My name is Rick Segalla. I'm from Connecticut. I have a 100 cow dairy in Connecticut. My concern with this, I'd like to say, I'm glad we've got the pasture rule coming out now. But, my concern is in the wintertime when -- at my operation,NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### I normally -- after milking in the morning, we move the cows from the barn. They go out into pasture area and they're allowed to come in when they want to during the day. And what I'm asking is, is it access to pasture or do we lock them all out in the pasture. If they want to come in and lay down inside or come back and eat out of the feed bunk, which is in the barn, do we have to provide them with a feeding systems outside or can they come back in the barn and go back out when they want to? MR. MATHEWS: At what time of day are you talking about? What time of the year? MR. SEGALLA: This is during the wintertime. In the summertime, they'll be out on pasture, but in the winter -- I mean, basically the operation is we open the gates, chase them out into the snow in the wintertime, except for when it's icy where the cow's going to get out there and do one of them numbers and end up split into a compost pile because of that. I'd like to be able,NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### you know, have the rule so that they have access to pasture, you know, during the day in the wintertime. At nighttime, conditions can change so much during the night and you could get a, say a snowstorm that turns to ice in the middle of the night. So, I don't know whether it's in the welfare of the animal to lock them outside during the night or -- you know, where they're going to come in and be injured in the process in the morning trying to bring them in. Or during the night. I think the intent of the rule is to give the animals access to fresh air and sunlight and that could be accomplished in a lot of ways. I mean, you put them on pasture in the wintertime, and the ground is frozen, it's basically a barnyard anyway. They're not getting anything from it except exercise. And if they have outside access and exercise, I think it's very good for them, but I'm worried that if we're required to lock them outside at night, we'reNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### going to have so many deaths -- you know, unnecessary deaths to the animals and reduce the lifespan of these animals' productive lives. MR. MATHEWS: Okay, it's not our intent to create unsafe conditions for the animals. So, I would encourage you and others, to make additional comments on that. Under the regulations, you are supposed to provide for the health and safety of your animals. So, if we've propose something that you feel is detrimental to the health and safety of the animal, let us know. Tell us how to fix it. MR. SEGALLA: Thank you. MS. SHEA: Kelly Shea again, with Horizon Organic Dairy. Richard, I just want to clarify something. So, I hear you frequently say to the farmers that are standing up here Β - well, if you would submit that to us in writing, or clarify that in writing. And I'm assuming that you meanNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### clarify or submit in writing specific suggested changes to the regulations. Because just to clarify, one of the reasons that we so heavily pushed for USDA to do these listening sessions is so that farmers voices could be represented by farmers. Not by activists saying they represented farmers or by processors saying they represented farmers. So, I just want to clarify that USDA is going to take all the comments made by farmers today, they will be submitted into the record with equal weight of written comments and be judged that way, as opposed to farmers needing to, once again, turn around and submit in writing, the same comments. Because, we believe that's a burden and that's why we asked for the listening sessions. MR. MATHEWS: Yes, what -- what I'm getting at is that Β - okay, let me step back. Everything that is said here today is being recorded. And a transcript will be developed and it will be put on the website and it'll goNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### into regs.gov as a comment. So, everything that's transpiring here now, is going to be on the record. It's a comment. What I'm getting at is that when I hear expressions of concern, I want to internalize that and be able to come up with some specific language on how I fix what your concerns are. So, if you send me some ideas as to how that can be fixed, that's better than for me to stand or sit at my desk and say, okay, this is what their concerns are, here's how I think it should be fixed to address the concerns of the farmers. And so, I know I'm asking you to do another step and maybe you can work that out through your organizations. But we need to be told how do we fix it from your perspective, not just from my perspective as to what it is you're asking me to do. Okay? I'm not trying to create more work for you and I do want to hear from the dairy farmers. And this may be the only way that we hear from a lot ofNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### dairy farmers, is coming to meetings like this. And that's why we're holding the listening sessions. But again, if I interpret your intent, I may not get it exactly right. And the next step is a final rule. So, if you've got some specifics on how I fix that language -- some suggested rewording of that language, it would be greatly appreciated. Okay? Yes sir. MR. GARDINER: Jim Gardiner again, dairy farmer, small businessman. I have a question for you. When you brought up the point of, you know, with replacement issues. You need data to, you know, help your judgment to get through to understand the last third of gestation. The data you use, does that have to come from a university or doctor's book or anything like that, or could that be can that be verified through, you know, applied research from farmers? MR. MATHEWS: It could be your own experiences. Just tell us what your ownNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### experience is. MR. GARDINER: Okay, well, that -- MR. MATHEWS: I mean all sources are welcome. MR. GARDINER: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: But it could be just your anecdotal -- as your experience on your farm. MR. GARDINER: OK, being that, when you have the last third of gestation, you know, when you look at that Rule, I know you made a comment, do we look at a fellow who is transitioning and part way through his transitioning, he needs to buy more animals before he's finished, does he buy organic or does he buy transitional. You know, or does he buy, you know, conventional animals and put them into the system? MR. MATHEWS: Just to interrupt you, that somebody who is transitioning, that they're buying organic, they're no longer organic.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### MR. GARDINER: Right. They'd be considered that transitional period again. MR. MATHEWS: Right. MR. GARDINER: Right. Okay, but-- MR. MATHEWS: No, they wouldn't be going through a new transition -- MR. GARDINER: They'd have to -- yes, you'd have to state stay stationary MR. MATHEWS: Once they're organic and they come out of organic Β - MR. GARDINER: Okay. MR. MATHEWS: -- they're no longer organic. MR. GARDINER: Right. Okay. MR. MATHEWS: So, you cannot take a organic livestock animal off of an organic farm and put it on to another farm where the-- MR. GARDINER: They're not certified. MR. MATHEWS: -- operation is not certified as a livestock handler. MR. GARDINER: Right, well,NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### pertaining to that, now that we have a pasture rule that's coming of age and coming into fruition. The experience I have had, being around other farmers and being on my own farm, has been that the cull rate of the cattle on pasture, once they've got into where the ruminant, you know, functions have adjusted, that the cull rate actually starts to decrease. And the amount of heifer raising and the amount of replacement animals actually starts to supersede what the farm needs and there he is a general sale or ability to sale of, you now, extra animals for dairy purposes. So with that, you know, I would submit to you that part of the ongoing study which is from all organic farmers that you would consider in the last third of gestation that if these folks are short of animals and, you know, that instead of transitioning new animals, you know in 12 months, that it would be a last third no matter what. And then, on the exception, of the people who areNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### transitioning if they're coming in that's one little area. You're right, you can't bring an organic animal into that, but there are animals available once they get to their end of their time where they can be certified. MR. MATHEWS: You give him one opportunity and he wants another one. MR. ENGELBERT: Just one quick one, Richard. One thing that hasn't been addressed is what do you see happening now? We've got a comment period that's going to end December 23. There's some controversial issues in here that don't really deal with pasture, such as the origin of livestock. Will that be pulled out and the Pasture Rule written and then posted? And what kind of timeframe are you -- do you think we're looking at for that? When will this rule actually become effective? Will there be any type of, like in the Harvey case, where they were given a year to adapt, will that be part of this new rule when it'sNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### finally written, do you think? I mean, we're a patient group, but we'd still like to know what we're looking at as far as when this is gonna actually be on the books? Thank you. MR. MATHEWS: I knew that question was going to come up, I just didn't know who was going to ask it. The real answer to that Kevin is that I really don't know how soon that it'll be out. I mean, there's going to be a lot of factors that play into this. It was hard getting the rule out to begin with and it wasn't because of the regulatory language that was in the rule, it was because of all the ancillary things, like the economic impact analysis, the regulatory flexibility act analysis, the paperwork burden analysis. So it's going to depend in large extent on how many comments we get. What kind of comments we get. And I think we're going to get a lot of comments. I've heard a lot of issues here today, where people are going to want to haveNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### this thing tweaked a little bit. Tweaking probably won't take a long time. The real challenge will be going back and addressing the data issue again. So that's why I emphasize that if you've got some data on what this means to you, please send that into us. There's still lots of steps that it has to go through. I mean, the comment period will end on December 23 rd 

### . We'll get to work right away analyzing those comments. We'll get to work right away tweaking the regulations where they need to be tweaked. But it'll still have to go through all of the normal clearance processes. The advantage that we have is that with this rule having taken so long the first time, that we've been able to educate people in the office of Budget and Policy Analysis about organic. We've been able to educate the office of the Chief Economist. We've educated with the Small Business Administration. So we've been able to educate people on pasture and what it meansNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### to the dairy farmers. So, we shouldn't have to plow that ground all over again. Okay? So, it should not take anywhere near as long. But to give you a date certain, I don't know. As far as when would it start? Personally, I'd like to see it finalized as soon as possible, so that maybe, the spring of in 2010 everybody has to be in compliance. And that sounds like a long time because we're in 2008, but it won't be until spring/summer, probably under ideal conditions, that we have a final rule. And so, I'm sure that the economists will tell us that we have to give some time for people to come into compliance. So, if we take it down a growing season, I would think that it would probably be fully implemented sometime early 2010. Now, that doesn't mean people should wait. I think that you all have a good idea what it's going to be. And we're talking about tweaking it. And so, everybody should be planning that it's going to be pretty closeNEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### to what we've got right now. And so, you can start making your adjustments now. Okay? But again, I can't give you exact dates. And, I don't know what they're going to require of me as far as the full implementation date. All I can tell you is that we'll work pretty steadily to get it out. Anything else? Anybody else? Look at that Kevin, you had almost the last word. MR. MALTBY: I would like to thank you very much Richard and I think we should show a great appreciation. (Applause.) MR. MATHEWS: Thank you. Look at this. MR. MALTBY: Yes, you had the time just right. It's now just after 12 o'clock. We should have been out of here about 30 minutes ago. I would ask as you leave, you take your discussions out the hallway or into the restaurant, but don't stop and discuss stuff in here.NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

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### All of this information is going to be on the NODPA web site within 24 hours, www.nodpa.com. NODPA and the other groups across the country will be working on comments and thank you all for coming and safe trips home. (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter was concluded at 12:20 p.m.)