Note: The output shown below is from the Communication 

Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the 

Communications Subcommittee Meeting #8 and is generally 

unedited. The CART system was used to provide an 

accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who 

are deaf, and was streamed in real-time and available to the 

public on the internet during the meeting. 

Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee

Communications Subcommittee Meeting #8

U.S. Access Board

Thursday, September 11, 2014

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. Good morning. This is the 

8th meeting of the communications subcommittee. And as you 

know from the agenda, later this morning, or actually this 

afternoon, the rail vehicles access advisory committee will be 

meeting right now this is strictly the subcommittee meeting. As 

you know, subcommittees anybody may participate in 

conversations. And for those in the audience, if you want to 

participate you are allowed as if you were a full subcommittee 

member. The only thing we ask two things: Like first everybody 

to remember to use a microphone. And second give your name 
so purposes of the CART operator and the record we know who 

is speaking. Speaking of CART we do not have a chat box of 

those that are monitoring this subcommittee call in the later 

advisory committee meeting desire to communicate or make a 

statement or ask a question, please send your statement, 

question to the RVAAC mailbox which is RVAAC @ 

access-board.gov. And that site will be monitored and 

communicated to the chair or subcommittee chair. Again, 

remember to give your name when speaking, your next 

subcommittee meeting will probably be October 2nd. Since we 

are recommending staff is recommending the committee follow 

the sequence of every Thursday being a conference call but for 

different subcommittees. Let's go around the room and 

introduce everybody introduce themselves we will start with the 

chair of the subcommittee Terry. Some of you also regarding 

the microphones there is a little button at the bottom press it 

and you should have a flashing green light.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Terry Pacheco representing the 

American Council of the Blind.

>> Jim Pecht staff.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Chris Hart liaison for Access Board.

>> This is Uwe Rutenberg Montreal.

>> Blair Slaughter Amtrak

>> Terry Soesbee RailPlan.
>> Robert Carlson with the Community Transportation 

Association.

>> Andre Gagne representing Bombardier.

>> Crystal Lyons Southwest. 

>> Jon Holbrook Alstom Transportation.

>> David Hughson Maryland Transit Authority.

>> David Gayle Hearing Loss Association of America.

>> Debra Patkin National Association for the Deaf, NAD.

>> Ed Hoff New Jersey Transit.

>> Marilyn Golden Disability Rights Education and Defense 

Fund or DREDF.

>> Clifton Perez independent living center -- National 

Council on Independent Living.

>> David Martinez Metro Chicago.

>> Frank Maldari MTA New York.

>>Billy Altom April

>> Bob Reuter Access Systems and Paralyzed Veterans 

colonial.

>> Melissa Anderson, Access Board staff.

>> Marsha Mazz, Access Board staff.

>> Lisa Fairhall Access Board staff. Thanks.

>>Rose Marie, Access Board staff.

>> Ken Shiotani National Disability Rights Network.

>> Dan Viser. 
>> Don Mebius, LTK Engineering.

>> Metro Chicago

>> Gricelda Cespedes, MTA New York.

>> Lou Woolner with Virginia Railway Express.

>> Thomas (inaudible) Department of Justice.

>> Everybody in the room.

>> Rose Marie: Yes.

>> PAUL BEATTY: Who is on the conference call line

>> I have Melissa Shurland. Calvin Gibson. Keith Frasier. 

Linda Martin. And Glenn Millis. Paul

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you Rose. Terry, I am going to 

turn it over to you for the subcommittee.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you, Paul. Good morning 

everyone. I want to thank you all for coming. I want a quick 

apology for the rearranging at the last minute of the agenda but 

it was necessary so that everyone could be represented. I hope 

it didn't create too much inconvenience for some of you 

especially coming in from out of town. I also would like to 

thank everyone who has been on this committee. This is -- I 

didn't realize our 8th meeting I know some of are beginning to 

feel like old friends seems like they have been doing this for a 

very long time now. And some -- and our committee has just 

done a lot of great work together, I think we have learned 

enough a lot -- learned an awful lot from one another. We have 
been -- it's kind of ironic the name of the committee is the 

communication, because I think that we have in the long run 

really done an awful lot of communication building among 

advocates, providers, rail companies, most everyone. We have 

really come a long way from where we started. And that's due in 

great part to everyone on the committee just working together. 

And I do really appreciate it and thank you all very much.

The Access Board staff has been fabulous. Melissa has filled 

in a couple of -- has done a lot of work for us she filled in a 

couple of times when the person who has done absolute 

yeoman's work for the committee is Jim Pecht I personally want 

to thank him for all he has done for us over these last several 

months. And all of the rest of the staff at the Access Board.

One of the -- something that I am sure virtually no one since 

I am the blind person in the building -- in the room or I think I 

am there may be one other I am not sure. And I noticed it, 

everybody else has to have the wall back here coming in. Blair 

Slaughter and Frank Maldari and I think they got a couple of 

other people I am sure they got a few other people in their 

organizations have done a fabulous job I want to thank them. I 

think we all are going to be able to take advantage of the 

presentation that's taking that entire wall. Who knew that a 

train vestibule could be that big.

 (LAUGHTER)
>> TERRY PACHECO: The purpose of it was so that we could 

take the signs and put them up and look at them and actually 

see just how much space does this type of sign take. What is 

the best type of size for raised print. Size for -- just a visual 

sign. What about VMS, visual messaging? All of that. What we 

did discover very early on, on this committee is we were not all 

coming from the same mind set. We were not all looking at 

what -- we all had different images in our minds of what each 

type of signage would be. Like we have different images of how 

much space does a wheelchair which type of wheelchair does a 

wheelchair need to turn around. Just what is best for someone 

who has a hearing loss as opposed to someone who is 

profoundly deaf. Someone who is low vision as opposed to 

totally blind. There are -- we are all coming from different 

perspectives, we need to unify, we need to be able to work 

together and understand what each other's needs are. And I 

think this is a great way for us to do that for all of the cup 

committees. We will be leaving this presentation up for all of 

the committees to use for -- and for everyone here just to get 

an idea, you know. We are going to be taking notes and such as 

a committee of the whole on the recommendations of the 

subcommittees. We really need to understand it.

I mean, I know myself boarding and alighting is nowhere 

near -- is not an area that I know anywhere near as much about 
as I do about signage, for instance.

And I am sure that there is you know situations that are 

vice-versa. So, we do have that, I want to thank Blair and Dave 

and the people who have helped put that up, put that together 

and put it up.

I also have something else, we are going to be coming across 

in this meeting, the areas in which we have been working. And 

one of them is to do with audible messaging. Audible 

announcements, that type of thing. We have had some varying 

opinions, again, on whether they should be automated or they 

should be human. I have some samples from various trains of 

good and not so good human announcements. And if anybody 

is interested in seeing what they think--doing self evaluating on 

the intelligibility of them you are more than welcome to -- I 

have them here today we have not put them up there but it's up 

here. If you wanted to listen to the thing it probably takes 10 or 

15 minutes. I have it if anyone is interested in listening to it. 

Okay. I think that's all of my notes as of this point.

Paul, I'm sorry Jim put up our summary on the website. If 

there is anyone who -- I don't know -- has everyone seen it, 

read it, had any additional thoughts on it? One of the -- one 

other very quick thing through this meeting that I want to point 

out. If anyone does want to speak don't just raise your hand 

because I won't see it. Speak out loud and say Terry, you know, 
or whatever your name is I am much more apt to recognize you. 

If you raise your hand I guarantee I won't be able to see you to 

recognize you. Hopefully I will hear you. So anyone that does 

please just make it known audibly.

Okay. Let's go through this summary and see what's left that 

needs to be done and where we have already come. And I am 

going to ask Jim so that I don't have the paper in front of the 

microphone I am asking Jim to read down it -- read through 

each piece as we come to it if anyone has comments please let 

us know.

>> JIM PECHT: Okay. This is Jim Pecht principles these 

guiding principles have been used in our work they can build 

inclusive environment. Number 1 information being conveyed 

to passengers must be made available to all passengers 

regardless of disability whenever feasible visual tactile induction 

loop electronic software and other universally accessible means 

should be used to provide maximum inclusion of all people. 2 

audible announcements must be made available visibly and via 

induction loops. 3, visual announcements (variable message 

signs VMS ) must be made audibly and induction loop. If there 

is high definition video audio description and ALS should be 

incorporated. 4, pre-recorded announcements are 

recommended over human announcements. 

>> TERRY PACHECO: Stop there. Anyone have any 
comments? I have one quick one I noticed that I have to 

apologize for omitting. And that's in number 1 we did not 

include captioning. I think we need to add that in there. Does 

anyone else have any other comments on the principles that we 

have been following?

>> FRANK MALDARI: This is Frank Maldari. One of the 

questions I had is about advertisings. I don't know we talked 

about it to any degree at the meetings what category and what 

requirements are for advertisements?

>> TERRY PACHECO: Very good subject. Anyone have any 

thoughts on it? 

>> Terry? Ken Shiotani. Just as a piece of information for 

folks, the Portland streetcar stop announcements the stops are 

sponsored by real estate companies or local companies in their 

neighborhood, and so, the stop announcement says 

approaching stop F Street sponsored by Jones Realty or 

something. So, just a -- just an example of what is done in one 

transit system that I have ridden on. You know, whether that's 

necessary or not, I don't know but since the real estate 

company, I guess, sponsors the shelter that is what transit 

agency has decided to do with their stop announcements.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: A principle that we use for the kinds of 

advertisements that you might see on an ATM is that if the 
advertise -- if the advertisement relates to any kind of 

transaction that you might do at that ATM, in other words, if 

they say, you know, enter 30 and you will get

>> TERRY PACHECO: An extra 30 dollars.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Free tickets to the show next door 

whatever. Then that has to be accessible. But if it's merely 

advertisement like you might get on the back of your receipt 

from giant you get all of those coupons and stuff you can't use 

them then and there but use them at the next trip, we don't 

require them to be accessible. So, it may be that you want to 

address advertisements where they say something like, you 

know, passengers any passengers on the train wanting a 

discount coupon for drinks at the next stop, you know, maybe 

that should be accessible but if it's an advertisement brought to 

you by Hostess cupcakes maybe that doesn't need to be. 

Something like that.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Good thoughts. Anyone else?

>> Marilyn Golden from DREDF. I just want to thank Ken for 

giving me the opportunity to say, we don't recommend stop 

announcements to have ancillary information that is not the 

name of the stop. For a lot of reasons there is more to say 

about that but we will stop there for especially since that's not 

what we are really asking.

I mean, I think Marsha it's good for her to say what is 
required today.

I don't know it should change I don't know if the different 

modalities of communication suggest different ways of handling 

advertisements. 

>> This is Janice Schacter Lintz, hi Terry. Sorry I was late 

but the train was late. You know, this is a little off topic but it's 

with advertisements -- I know, it's kind of ironic, the train was 

late.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Jersey Transit broke down.

>> I don't know what it was Amtrak. By the way there was 

no announcements as we discussed at this meeting telling us 

even more the loud speaker why we were late or we were going 

to be late. We just showed up an hour late. As we discussed 

through the meeting about people you know will be advised 

during emergencies, we were never advertised. I have no idea 

why I am late. You know, one thing that I wanted to mention 

when discussing advertisements I don't think the Access Board 

has any control over this. But more of an advisory is when the 

rails are promoting or advertising it would be nice to include the 

different ADA symbols within their advertisements. And I don't 

think that's something that this group has oversight over it's 

something I want to put out there for people to bring back to 

their own rails. If we get access in and we have all of the right 
signage on the trains, if we don't promote that access in the 

advertisements when it's being promoted then no one will know 

about it. It means you actually have to take the trains to see the 

sign, and it should be a positive thing of getting people to come 

back to trains who might be afraid to take the trains for not 

having the information and promoting what access has now 

been implemented. By I don't know if we have the oversight of 

that. We have to connect all of the dots and part of it is getting 

people to come back on the train.

>> Excuse me, this is the operator.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Yes.

>> Did someone call for the operator?

>> PAUL BEATTY: No.

>> Okay. Thank you.

>> Bob Reuter here. This morning there was a delay on the 

Marc train coming in in fact I was intentionally watching the 

delay was both audio and visual. But the fact that the train 

wasn't making all stops they the they turned the local train into 

express train and skipped several stops. That was never done 

on the captioning on the display. It was audio, the PA 

announcer said this train will not stop west Baltimore et cetera 

but it never showed up on the display the visual display. So, I 

can imagine you know say something like David got on there he 

didn't know he couldn't get off at Halethorpe, this would be an 
interesting thing there that it worked halfway.

>> This is Linda FRA I had a comment.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Go ahead, Linda.

>> I just had a comment. We have gotten inquiries in the 

past and we actually talked to you all at the Access Board about 

it, about whether or not it was appropriate to have 

advertisements imbedded truncated domes for instance. And 

we said no, because the point of the truncated domes not only 

to warn people of -- from field but also visually there is 

supposed to be a contrasting material. So presumably if you put 

an advertisement for whatever, you know, imbedded in that it 

would have to be different colors which would confuse people 

that rely on it. But it might be analogous to other things you 

talked about what Marilyn talked about preferring not to have 

advertisements at the end of station stops, mainly because the 

point of that information is to communicate the use of 

transportation, and the usability of transportation. And if you 

confuse it with advertisements for the iPhone 6 or whatever, you 

know, you may actually lose the value of the clarity. And 

oftentimes people with disabilities, you know, sometimes 

cognizantly impaired those type of disabilities need that clarity. 

So, just a thought -- my thoughts.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Anyone else?

>> This is Frank at MTA as far as advertisements go it's 
optional information it's not necessary for the right it's just 

additional optional information I do not think it should be 

regulated at all other than you don't want it ADA to 

your -- ADA -- added to your station announcements. I find it 

confusing for somebody getting off at the specific station 

especially if the stations are close together you have to wait for 

the advertisement for -- to go through before you hear the next 

one. So but that's my suggestion on advertisements I think it 

doesn't apply -- the rules writing don't apply to them it's 

optional media for how it's being transmitted and shouldn't be 

regulated.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Except that it seems to me that if it's 

actually coming through on the VMS, then it would -- then we 

would have purview over it wouldn't we? I mean, we are 

saying --

>> FRANK MALDARI: We talked about the audio 

announcements not having the advertisements. Typically I am 

not going to say in all cases but in your investigations typically 

the ASI sign system automated station announcements are 

separate and specifically dedicated for station announcements 

and other things for passengers. Any other kind of 

advertisements would be either static signs like -- like you see 

on some of the posters and potentially TV type of signs like you 

see all over the place now. Everybody has got cheap screens 
and they put all kinds of advertisements on them. Those are the 

two types of media for advertisements but the station 

identification we keep separate. And it's -- it's a necessary 

feature, whereas the advertisements is not a necessary feature.

>> TERRY PACHECO: All right.

>> Terry this is David Gayle. I have a kind of a small issue I 

look at the text I don't see anything that addresses for visual 

signage. That it is required to be real time. Visual 

announcements or signage it doesn't say anything about real 

time. I don't know whether it's a given and it's therefore 

self-evident or there should be something in there that 

established that as a requirement.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I think we have just taken it as a given 

because it would only -- am I correct, I believe it would -- it 

would relate to the just to VMS it wouldn't relate to any of the 

other types of signage, would it? I don't think, it does.

>> He is shaking his head, yes.

>> It just relates to VMS.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Just to VMS I wanted to be certain. 

Does anyone have a problem with us putting "real time" in 

there? Does anyone have other opinions on it?

>> FRANK MALDARI: Frank with MTA it's a subtlety in the 

language but station announcements typically real time by 

definition, I don't think that you want to say you are at the next 
station three hours after you pasted it. So really time seems 

evident if you are identifying stations I don't think you need 

clarity in that regard.

>> Passed.

>> This is Robert Carlson we want to consider the idea of 

the various modes of delivering the same message if it's audio 

and it's visual it needs to be within some time parameter.

>> TERRY PACHECO: That's what I am thinking

>> As opposed to real time if all messages are equally late 

it's bad. If you get one message and not the other I think the 

modes need to be synchronized within a parameter we specify.

>> Uwe Rutenberg, real time communication comes mainly 

into play when you are talking about evacuations or 

emergencies. Because these messages can typically not be 

pre-recorded so and this -- if there is a need for real time 

either audio or visual communication.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. David, did you want to say 

something?

>> David: Yes. Hi. I apologize. This is David Nelson. I 

arrived late. I want to make sure that I understand what is going 

on here. So, we are talking about real time -- so, let's use, for 

example Washington Union Station we set up the passenger 

information display systems PIDS they are pre-canned messages 

we tried to think of every possible pre-canned message our 
agents no longer make audible announcements however if there 

is any type of special announcement that needs to be made we 

have what is called an ad hoc message where the agent can type 

in the message, and then the system will do both the audio and 

the visual announcement. So, I think that that could easily be 

applied to trains.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Would that --

>> David: Does that kind of answer some of the concerns 

that some people are having or --

>> TERRY PACHECO: I guess my question on it is, would that 

be something that would be reasonably available let's say, for 

instance, on a green line WMATA subway train or on a trolley, 

something else -- something -- in another -- one of the other 

types of rail vehicles than the -- I am saying over the road. I'm 

sorry. Than, for instance, Amtrak for something on a much 

smaller basis or --

>> David Nelson: Um, so that's a good question. You know, 

unfortunately I am more focused on -- focused on the Amtrak 

because we have conductors who would be able to do the work 

while our train engineers operate the train. When it comes to 

Metro, or WMATA they have you know operated -- they have 

one basic conductor who runs the subway system so that might 

be more of an operational issue where, you know, each transit 

agency would have to, you know, have some type of plan that 
would -- maybe they would have somebody centralized to 

operate each thing I don't know but that's a good question.

>> Ed Hoff New Jersey Transit I don't think it's outrageous to 

suggest that any rail system could possibly do either speech to 

text or Text-to-Speech technology whether it be on board or by 

some other means. David mentioned Text-to-Speech where 

somebody types in the message it turns it into an audible 

message. The reverse is possible now we can say something the 

phones have the technology right now to turn that audible 

message into text. And it's readily available. Or you know, so if 

you maybe don't have a keyboard available to you on train or 

light rail system but perhaps speak into a microphone use the 

speech to text technology with the vehicles we are talking about 

today that that can't be done.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I think it would be fabulous.

>> Good morning, this is Melissa Shurland from FRA.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Yes.

>> Can you hear me?

>> TERRY PACHECO: Yes.

>> Yes. I wanted to echo what Ed said. Two years ago 

Linda and Gary and I some others attended the APTA conference 

we specifically went to several of the vendors that were at that 

conference and asked that question whether or not it was 

possible to be able to type messages into the system and have it 
displayed on a train car. And they said, yes, it is possible. A lot 

of what they develop is dependent on what the customer wants, 

the service providers. But the technology is available to be able 

to provide information on the fly on the rail cars.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Can I make a quick comment Frank 

again. We looked into this we have a CART system here and 

there is somebody who is correcting -- correcting the messages 

the reason for that is because not everybody's speech is 

identical the technology doesn't recognize pronunciation of 

every word exactly the same. So there is limitations to it. Is it 

possible, yes. But there is likely to be a lot of corrections that 

need to be done. Once you get into the area of having to do a 

correction, now you are talking about having a terminal to type 

in the message. Cabs of most rail equipment is pretty tight. 

There is space -- not a lot of space in there for the equipment 

that we have. We are always challenged to minimize the cab 

space and maximize the passenger space which typically results 

in not enough room for the engineer to do his job in the first 

place. So there is a space concern there is a cost concern. Now, 

you typically -- well in our particular environment, interest there 

is a union agreement what they have to do in their 

responsibilities. Adding new assignment such as typing in a 

nonstandard message could be a problem for some people. 

Additionally, there are some operations where there is only an 
operator and the operator is busy operating a train he can't be 

typing these announcements. At best he can make a 

non-canned audio announcement. But I think, you know, at this 

point in time, the technology is not there to reliably provide 

speech to text conversion. And the best that we can do now 

and try to do is try to can as many messages as we can so that 

you can pull them up, they will be well enunciated because it 

was a standard voice you try to get as many of those conditions 

as you can reliably consistently and accurately rather than try to 

rely on a speech to text converter.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry --

>> This is Cliff Perez independent living the National 

Council of Independent Living I work for them it keeps coming 

up. The issue about speech to text. Although I agree that the 

technology is not here yet I don't think that that is a reason not 

to address this issue. We are talking about the future. And 

technology cannot improve itself unless it's being used so we 

can get feedback and so forth. I would not go with the fact that 

it's not ready today if it's not ready today it will be ready 

tomorrow. It can only be ready tomorrow if we use it and get 

feedback and we can work with that so that's my thought on 

that.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. Does anyone else have any 

other comments on this before we --
>> Yes, it's Janice. I agree with Cliff. First off, the fact that 

there is no space if we have regulations space will be made so 

that's really a moot point. The same with unions if unions are 

told there this is a new regulation they adapt people unable to if 

they can't manage to deal with this they shouldn't drive a train 

they have to belief is much more complicated then dealing with 

speech to text language if you can't -- if you are overwhelmed 

by that what you are going to do in a crises situation that's 

ridiculous reason. And I think, you know, the speech to 

language text is getting much better I know on my own iPhone 

with Siri every time I say something it recognizes my voice it 

gets better same with the keyboard. I think there is a lot more 

language recognition. I think we have to plan all of the 

regulations for changes in technology, right, for the future. And 

we are not writing regulations based on what is just available 

today but it has to have an ability to grow and accommodate 

because the technology is changing really fast. Who would 

believe we would have a phone on our watch I would never 

believe it. If we allow -- if we write the regulations very 

carefully that allows for growth because it takes longer to 

change the regulations than technology. We can't be confined 

to the current technology or we will be having these meeting the 

rest of our life. We need to avoid it because it doesn't work. 

People with disabilities fall behind because the regulations don't 
keep up with the technology, and then they fall behind because 

they are constantly in the catch up phase.

>> Bob Reuter.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you, Janice. Excuse me one 

moment, Bob. We have an awful lot to cover I am getting a little 

concerned about time. If anyone has anything that has not 

already been said, I would -- what I would like to do is take two 

more comments in favor two more against and then we 

will -- and then move on to the possibility of a motion on this.

>> Bob: I am in favor here the reason being in 1991 when 

we wrote the original regulations, a lot of things were cut out 

because we can't do we can't do it. They didn't even know it 

existed we know law a low floor light rail vehicle. We need to 

think ahead that's the key thing I am having to endorse Janice 

here. We have to think ahead. These regulations are going to 

be around at least 20 years.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Marsha Mazz. Neither in favor nor 

against, as a staff person, I just want to point out to the 

committee that in the -- in the end, when we take a proposed 

rule to the Office of Management and Budget, one of the 

questions that we are going to ask is, is this technology 

available can it be done. And so, I would suggest to you 

that -- and I am frankly quite supportive of looking to the future 

because we don't revise your rules as often as we might. But I 
would recommend that if you are going to advise the board to 

push toward cutting edge technology that you also advise us as 

to how to address the immediate implementation needs for the 

time when the technology isn't quite there. Do you understand 

what I am saying? What do we do -- what do we require what 

do we do while we are waiting for that technology to emerge.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. Thank you. Anyone else?

>> Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. I will be somewhere in the 

middle of the road as well I have a question for clarification 

because we tend to think about things in the broad scale in 

terms of coaches. And of course, in inner-city and long 

distance you have a variety of different cars including sleepers 

and things like that with different compartments. But first I was 

just going to say, it's -- I think it's going to be very critical in 

the way the language is crafted so that it gives lots of room for 

creativity in how things are achieved. To the point -- that was 

made before the regulations are very hard and arduous to 

change technology will eclipse it I don't think that's the key to 

writing it with the goal in mind of communication. When you 

have an emergency though, you can have situations that are 

changing in milliseconds. I don't know if at any point we are 

going to find the technology that can -- can communicate 

quickly enough the anxious words of a conductor because his 

train just went in the river or something crazy.
 (LAUGHTER)

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: We try to avoid that.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Courtesy of other modes of 

transportation we get there.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> I am going to counter this Ed Hoff Jersey transit he is 

talking about us.

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: The shipping industry that --

>> Emergencies are merge -- emergencies there are 

reasons for ad hoc messages delays that Amtrak causes other --

 (LAUGHTER)

>> Ed: Like we have to switch tracks last minute you 

wouldn't arrive this track now this one. Not truly an emergency 

but something is not a canned message but something you have 

to get out quickly. On board it may be a different message to 

get across maybe not an emergency but one you would never 

conceive of initially. So, those are the messages that are the 

most important. The canned messages the stop announcements 

a lot of people can expect them those that don't need to rely on 

them wholly but can expect based on the number of stops what 

the next stop may be. Those where things are going slightly 

different from the norm those are the most important messages 

that need to be broadcast in both audible and visual. Again, 
leaving emergencies out because emergencies are emergencies 

depending on the severity of it there may be no communications 

in emergencies. And so, actions will have to take place. So, I 

think there is a middle ground of those unusual events not 

emergency but unusual that takes away that comfort of the 

normal that are the most important to people to know about.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Yes. This is Frank again. I am 

agreeing partially with what was said previously. I think the 

work -- not about New Jersey they are good people there. No, 

what I want to clarify is the biggest problem that you have with 

some regulations is they are too confining. That's what Blair 

was stating and that's also what Marsha was stating. You want 

to have an opportunity to have things get better but at the same 

time you want to regulate what you can't do reliably now. So, 

yeah, the important thing is to encourage it but not require it. 

You know, technology is changing but if you can't do it today 

and you can't meet the law then there is a whole bunch of 

people on a project who are in a whole load of trouble trying to 

figure out how they are going to do this. You have to leave a 

way out. Canned messages they are cumbersome but they can 

be done easily. Speech to text it is improving. And there is an 

incentive to get rid of the canned messages to some extent so 

you can do it on the go. And regulation is not the only reason 
why you increase communication with passengers we have been 

putting ASI systems on the cars for the last 15 years it's for 

communication with our passengers and it's a customer 

amenity. It's not just -- it's good for everybody not just a few. 

You know, we are -- you know, people are using the new 

technology to get the new modes of communication and they 

are evolving. But I think it's a mistake to require a specific thing 

to be done right now and it can't. But you can make the 

wording of the regulation suggest or encourage the use of the 

new technology but not specifically require a certain type of 

communication level at this point.

>> Terry this is Marilyn.

>> TERRY PACHECO: One second please. I think you make a 

good point frank my only -- maybe my misunderstanding here I 

thought when we started all of this we were basically talking not 

to replace canned messages but to use as an additional. You 

can't do a canned message to suddenly say, for instance, as 

the -- I'm sorry my name is gone your name is gone from me 

about the change of the train this morning. Information that 

needs to be changed on the fly. You are not going necessarily 

be able to use a canned message for that that's what I was 

talking text to speech and speech to text was something along 

those lines. I do think that we also do need to look at the future 

and when, if and when this technology is available for specific 
types, you know maybe it's not commuter maybe it's just long 

distance or inter-city, maybe it's just trolleys. We need to look 

at -- you know that is something that we kind of let go is the 

idea of various technologies and modes of communication for 

various types. We just been lumping it on all types of vehicles.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Marilyn then Chris.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: I think you are right about different 

types of rail light rate we have different need different 

requirements than Amtrak or something like that. Or each of 

them. But I think Frank really through down a gauntlet a bit so I 

can't resist. I think -- I mean I agree that if a regulation is sort 

of unexpected and brand new, and required tomorrow, it might 

put a covered entity in a tight spot if --

>> TERRY PACHECO: Marilyn, we lost you on the 

microphone.

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: How is this? Okay. So the thing is it 

doesn't work like that. You will have an advisory committee 

report then the Access Board will deliberate and there will be a 

proposed rule and each of these steps takes time. And then 

they actually be a final rule and it has to be adopted by DOT in 

proposed rule they are good about simultaneously doing 

proposed and rules at the same time as the board. Not always 

but often. So, that's good. But, still, I mean so if covered 
entities are looking down the road, and something is proposed, 

they can begin -- and companies they can all begin -- and you 

know there is communication between the entities and they can 

all begin to look toward that and developing products. So, it's 

not just that is comes down in the blink of an eye, and you 

never knew. Now, covered entities that wait until not only that 

the requirement is made, but that the effective date has come. 

They wait until that day to act on it, yeah, they are in the lurch. 

But they didn't have to do that. And the debacle we had a 

couple of years ago with not around transportation but hotel 

swimming pools and did you have to have lifts and it was -- you 

know it was a huge controversy and I won't go into it, but yeah 

they waited until it became effective. But if they looked down 

the road, there were many indications of what would be required 

and they had plenty of time to prepare for it, and trains is an 

area that in particular everything takes a long time. So, there 

should be plenty of time to really implement this principle that 

the policy should drive the technology. And not the other way 

around.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. Chris?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: I just want to emphasize that the 

committee has a lot of work to do and I would strongly suggest 

that at this point that you all begin to move on. And I would 

gently remind all of you here is that you may not actually -- you 
are not actually writing a rule but you are providing advisory 

guidance to the Board who will actually develop the language for 

the rule. And so, having a general sense of the committee, 

which I believe we do have now on this issue, I would suggest 

that we can move on to the larger agenda, which is on the walls 

here in the conference room. Now, I would also note that 

because we have a pretty tight agenda for both days, it may not 

be necessary for everyone to chime in with similar points. So, 

with that, I would suggest that we move on.

>> I agree Chris I need to add one thing I apologize but this 

is just -- I'm sorry but Frank said something that is so 

inaccurate. While you know, it's a lovely thought that people will 

thoughtfully do this, I have personally dealt with the MTA. And 

we did do a pilot project for induction loops in buses. And so, 

while it was a nice thing they then came back and said it 

couldn't be done even though we piloted it, it was done in 

London, and we had documented proof it was accomplishable 

without the regulations people with disabilities have no market 

force and I am personally tired of being the sheriff in New York 

and around the country to enforce access. So, that's what I the 

role I became especially against the MTA that's just a completely 

inaccurate statement that companies are just going to do it they 

are not the MTA is probably the worst offender of this because 

it's taken 30 years to get elevators into the subway stations in 
New York and I'm sorry, I just don't want to hear about cost I am 

seeing decorative tile work and art I think is personally beautiful 

access for people with wheelchairs is much more important.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you Janice. I am totally with 

Chris I think on this one. Let's move on. I am going to take a 

little -- I am going to make a suggestion to the committee that 

we do one of two things and you can just -- let's just do up and 

down Aye or nay do we want to take the time now to come up 

with a proposal on this to put into our recommendations to 

the RVAAC? Or do we want to take this, write something in the 

meanwhile. We can via E-mail and put this as the number one 

issue on the agenda tore for the October 2 meeting and finish 

this topic at that time and have it over and done with?

>> The latter.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I didn't quite mean to sound like I was 

pushing my idea on it but -- anyone actually want to, I think 

okay there is goes. Does anyone actually have a reason or want 

to try and write this recommendation this morning?

>> No.

>> Can't we just get it done?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: This is Chris. One of the things 

that Jim and I and Access have discussed before the meeting is 

if it would be helpful if board staff can help you guys or all of 

the committees work on language so that you don't necessarily 
to have -- have to spend every minute of the last two days 

wordsmithing everything. So, there is always that option 

available.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Terry this is Marsha Mazz at the very 

beginning of this advisory committee we did ask you to not 

spend too much time wordsmithing to simply get the principles 

down get the ideas down on paper, each time a committee has 

tried to wordsmith and spent a lot of time wordsmithing we 

found that for various reasons and because of regulatory format 

and the way that we write our rules, et cetera, we have had to do 

some rewriting. And I would encourage you to simply get the 

idea down on paper, not worry about the wordsmith, we are 

here, we understand what the intent is, if we don't we will 

question you. And we can come back to you even while we are 

writing things to say, now did I understand you to say this? And 

so, don't -- please don't waste too much of your precious time 

on --

>> TERRY PACHECO: Exactly I don't think we should. I 

don't -- that's my feeling. I am getting the sense from the 

reaction to the idea of doing it today let me just ask does 

everyone want to put it on the agenda for the October 2nd 

meeting? Yes or no?

>> Yes.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. That takes care of it. We will 
come up with our recommendation. That's not -- just for 

clarification, for Chris and for Marsha, our coming with of the 

recommendation is not a matter of the wordsmithing or try 

willing to -- trying to write the recommendation or try to go 

write the regulation we are going to come up with the regulation 

for you. That's going to be first issue on the October agenda. 

Okay. Getting back to our summary.

>> This is Melissa Anderson. I wanted to point out it's 

11 o'clock I am going to be the clock nag today.

>> TERRY PACHECO: That's fine. Thank you Melissa. Can 

we continue on?

>> JIM PECHT: Okay. Again this is Jim. Moving on to the 

sign types proposed requirements. Generally when I talk in 

terms of visual or tack time or ISA things like that I am referring 

to what is currently required for discussion purposes in the 

building standard with regards to what is required there for 

visual and tactile signs but we will go from there.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Jim could you give a quick -- can you 

give a quick summary of some of the aspects that are required 

to meet for the guidelines like the lettering height has to have 

5/8 inch for visual -- so people can get a feel for the 

requirements.

>> JIM PECHT: In for time wise, no. I would rather not do 

that than go into specifics I mean it's out there. Hopefully you 
have looked at it we talked about it on occasion. And I think 

most of the people in here know what it is we are talking about 

if we do we can ask specific questions later let's go generally I 

want to get down the list as quick as I can. A directional signs 

including exit signs committee said visual only for those. B, 

designation signs for spaces including exit signs tactile and 

visual and the ISA shall be provided at required wheelchair 

spaces and priority seating and to be located and there is a 

blank there we didn't say specifically how high off the ground or 

where for those. The difference in the two exit signs there are 

directional exits signs versus exit signs which are at the door 

which I consider designation sign of a space. The exit moving 

down C, designation signs for elements like fire distinguishers 

and things not required to meet accessibility requirements. D, 

nonemergency informational signs, visual and meet the size 

requirement for visual where possible or practicable. E, 

nonemergency operational signs tactile and visual and meet the 

size requirements for visual characters where practicable. 

Furthermore where instructions for door latches or locks are 

provided they shall be both visual and tactile. And be located 

again specifically specific location wasn't specified as yet. 

Where pictogram is provided for these uneven instructions a 

tactile shall be provided directly adjacent to it, it doesn't say 

whether above or below just adjacent. F, emergency warning 
information signs, have to be visual and tactile. G, emergency 

operational signs have to be visual. H, caution and safety signs 

including icons and logos have to be visual. I, stop 

identifications including train designation route and final 

destination. These signs are required to be in VMS variable 

message signs. All cars must provide variable message signs in 

two locations or at least one sign is readable from every part of 

the car. The variable message sign shall provide equal 

information as to what is provided orally that means audibly I 

assume. If stops are announced the signs should be 

should -- the signs should announce stops if emergency are 

announced the they should announce emergencies and so forth. 

Where cars provide route map tracking signs in two locations so 

at least one sign is audible and visible from every part of the 

car. J, menus and directories at least one menu or directory 

must comply I assume per car. K, employee only signs are not 

necessary to meet the requirements.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. One of the things that 

I -- that occurred to me in a couple of those, I was one of the 

them in particular, they were saying needs to be audible. I think 

the other issue that we really need to point out they also need to 

be intelligible. Having something audible and actually being 

able to understand what that noise is, are two very different 

issues. And that's, I think that's a very important point.
>> JIM PECHT: Jim, this is the phrase you are looking for the 

scientific community call it is -- it's just gone out of my mind.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: Speech intelligibility

>> That's what we need to get in there.

>> That what happens when you are old the brain sits down 

on you.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Any quick comments on any of this?

>> FRANK MALDARI: I have a quick comments some of the 

signs and if you look around the room, this one here in 

particular emergency instructions, to make that compliant and 

visual and tactile it would take up the whole wall right now we 

have about four per vestibule of that sign two over the doors 

and at least two more on the passenger compartment. The 

question is when you require the sign to be accessible, is it 

every single sign or is it at least one sign per car because it 

makes a big difference. We put a lot of signs because you are 

trying to get people's attention. So they are aware of the 

emergency instructions. Now, we have to cut down on the 

amount of the signs if all of those signs had to meet all of the 

ADA requirements. So, the question is, when you make a 

requirement that a sign needs to meet the requirements is it 

every sign of that type in the car, or at least one sign of that 

type in the car that is accessible.
>> TERRY PACHECO: Do I understand you to say you put 

four of the same sign in each vestibule?

>> FRANK MALDARI: If you could see the picture here there 

emergency instructions, we typically have them over the door, 

you would have to look around the other signs over the side 

door and they are also on the walls adjacent to the vestibule. 

So, they also -- they also happen to be HPPL they provide 

illumination if you lose lighting. But the idea --

>> TERRY PACHECO: But it says the same thing.

>> FRANK MALDARI: It says the same thing we do the same 

thing with the watch the gap signs they are all over the place. 

Typically, the people who don't have disabilities the ones not 

paying attention to what they are doing, unfortunately. And 

that's why we have so many signs trying to remind those people, 

hey, you better watch the gap. Somebody who -- who can't see 

that well, or has other mobility impairments they are more in 

tune to paying attention to watching where they are stepping. 

The question becomes is, we try to spread the information as 

broadly as we can to make sure that the people who we are 

targeting are getting the message. The question is: Does 

every -- do every single one of those signs need the 

requirements if they do reduce the number of signs in the car. 

Or if we can have flexibility in the language to allow one or two 

signs to meet the requirement, such that the information is 
provided, but additional information is provided so you can help 

people who aren't paying attention.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I think it's something to look at when 

we look into the --

>> Bob Reuter. You have the emergency signs emergency 

information F visual and tactile. But emergency operational 

signs only visual. In other words, I know where the emergency 

exit is I don't know how to open the door? Of course a 

Catch-22 because this big yellow one here you can't look out 

the window when you are done.

>> This is Dave Hughson on the same note I was wondering 

if there is any issues with covering up that much window space 

for first responders.

>> FRANK MALDARI: You went through what we talked 

about. But the idea that the whole set up one of the ideas was 

to look at some of the recommendations and say look does it 

really cause a problem or not. Because putting tactile signs on 

the car, you know, at first glance shouldn't be a problem. And 

generally it's not. I mean if all you have to do is add Braille it's 

typically not a big deal. Some of the signs that we have on the 

cars now don't meet the requirements of the 5/8 raised 

lettering. But do have Braille on the signs and were able to put 

them in the confined spaces as you can see. So, you know, it's a 

question of if you -- I don't know if we want to take the time 
now we can go through it in some cases putting Braille on the 

sign or slightly increasing the size is not a big deal. But in other 

cases it is. And as I have said before the flexibility in the 

regulations should allow you to do what is best not just what is 

regulated. And if we don't have that flexibility there, then you 

are going to have strain looking signs on the cars and it's going 

to be a lot less of the signs to warn people on -- of unsafe 

watching the gap and other things if every single one of them 

have to be the same. You could look at the end and see do not 

evacuate passing between car sign. Currently it's on the door, 

on this particular car, we tried to make a sign that we thought 

was ADA compliant, and it's kind of big. But there is a little bit 

sprays adjacent to the door that you could probably fit 

something in there. Now, that's the B end. If you look at the F 

end, which is on the other end of the room, you will find that 

there is no wall directly adjacent to the door. To put the sign. 

So, you are only -- the only next place that you have to put it is 

actually on the window which negates the ability to look through 

the cars. So, it's an example that you know, how far do you 

want to go and how intent are the regulations in providing some 

flexibility to allow you to do what you can where you can 

practically. I know when we spoke about this in the meetings 

we talked about practical. And that was the an example of when 

it's practical you will do it when it's not practical you are going 
to try to do something else. So, this is where I am cautioning 

you. I mean we can put the passing between the cars that's 

adjacent to the window is not in raised lettering, but it does 

have Braille. I mean, is that better than not having that sign 

there because we don't have any real estate to put it.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thanks Frank

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Blair Slaughter two quick comments 

one is how is the Access Board once they take the 

recommendations how do they work with existing regulations 

and recommended practices from FRA and APTA in squaring all 

of what we recommend so it all meshes nicely? And that's one 

question. The second is: As a commented we are talking about 

technology before it would be nice if we can put into ultimately 

into the language something that takes into account that in time 

a lot of what we are thinking of has to be you know big 

placarded things may be can be replaced with higher technology 

things that we can't necessarily conceive right now. It's nice if 

there is that think of it almost as an equivalent facilitation of a 

sign that may make things down the path a lot -- a lot better 

and make sure that we communicate everything that we need to 

and do it well. The third question I had was on item I, the stop 

identification signs, and how they would relate to long distance 

trains where the train is on a set path a set schedule there is no 

immediacy to the fact that they want to stop in North Dakota in 
five hours and the train is going to end up in Portland at the end 

of the week do we --

 (LAUGHTER)

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Do we need to have a sign that's 

reminding of us -- reminding us of that constantly on long 

distance trains that would be my only question.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Again, I think that's one of the issues 

that we need to distinguish between which type of rail vehicle 

we are talking about. Because we absolutely do need that, I 

believe, on for instance light rail and subways and even 

commuter trains, you are right we probably don't need it on the 

crescent city.

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Say the corridor or some of our 

smaller corridors where it's almost a commuter type operation 

it's a fast changing, short distance between stations, I would say 

yeah for sure. Some of the other longer haul trains it's almost 

you know extra thing to break.

>> David Nelson: This is David Nelson. If I would make a 

comment I wanted to add to what Blair and something 

else -- others had mentioned earlier. We need some type of 

language where we have flexibility of the new technology that 

might possibly be coming. That way we are not you know 

trapped with what we have or what technology that we would 

have, you know, it's just like ADA law talks about TRS 
telecommunications systems -- or I'm sorry Telecommunication 

Relay Systems. We had TTYs back in the day. And so that was 

required a TTY was required to be set up and it's literally one 

line in the language that says: Any future technology should 

then also be considered feasible. So, a lot of people have 

shifted to using the video relay service a videophone. And the 

federal communication commission took advantage of that one 

line in the regulation so that way any other type of relay service 

was able to be added on to that, so captioning phones, speech 

to text phones that type of thing. That's just a few of them. 

And now a lot of us are stuck with the language that was set 24 

years ago and there is no flexibility to that so I think that's 

important to add in there.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you David. I think 

that -- we -- that helps tremendously with the issue that we 

brought up earlier. That is a very good solution to it, thank you 

very much.

Anything else? Quickly. What I am trying to do is get 

through the rest of the summary I want to give 10 minutes to 

look at the signs.

>> FRANK MALDARI: I had a quick comment this is Frank 

again of the equivalent facilitation. There is more than one 

means to communicate. You have smartphones now, you could 

also have hand outs I guess the point I am getting to one of the 
problems when you have tactile signs on the trains you don't 

know where they are you don't know where you have to look to 

find them. And you really don't want people moving their hands 

all along the side walls of the car looking for a sign because 

they don't know if it exists and where it exists. It almost seems 

like maybe it would be better if there was a booklet or a 

pamphlet for a car that could be handed out at the station with 

all of the information in it. You know to provide the equivalent 

information but in a means that the person knows where to get 

it and you have flexibility and you are not confined to space 

next to a door of where to put the decal you can write it up in a 

book put it in Braille large type face and tell people where it is 

have it available at the station somewhere. You have to get 

through a station to get on the train. That's a possible 

alternate. The problem is we don't govern stations here the 

regulation is flexible it can allow for an alternative means of 

communication.

>> TERRY PACHECO: The other issue with that you are right, 

that's beyond our purview but just for your own information, I 

don't think that there is anyone that I can -- I can't think of a 

situation where we have not as visually impaired and blind 

people have not run into places that have done exactly what you 

are talking about, but they did it three years ago and that was 

two iterations back. The menu the prices have changed, we no 
longer carry no longer serve that kind of roast. Whatever it is. 

It's keeping those things updated. It's also -- I would not want 

to guess how many times I have done dozens and dozens of 

Braille and large print menus for a restaurant because we were 

having a conference at some hotel. The first thing they do the 

minute we check out is throw them all in the trash. Trying to 

have documentation -- documents kept places is a very, very 

tall order. It doesn't sound like it should be but keeping them 

up to date and keeping you have such a huge turn over of staff 

them knowing that that's the Braille -- that Braille menu is or 

that that document--I have had it happen over at Smithsonian. 

The one that they -- the one that they gave my husband was 

absolutely not the current set of displays over there. You 

can -- that's it's a great idea but it's really hard to enforce that 

and keep it up to date

>> This is Janice Schacter Lintz. I think that eliminating any 

human error is critical. And any time that you put people with 

disabilities dependent on another person you infantilize them 

two the information is never current, three there is definitely 

going to be an argument because there is definitely going to be 

the person who tells you it doesn't exist. I mean, in a very 

different environment it was the Morgan library where I 

implemented the access I knew it existed the devices were there 

where they were the person still arguing with me it doesn't 
exist. So, any way that you could eliminate and if maybe we can 

come up with a way of putting the Braille that people know 

where to look so that they are not feeling all the ways is better 

than putting it on that because I agree Terry, it -- you should 

try each of these suggestions and going through it yourself, by 

the end of a two-week period you would kill yourself you would 

say I am done thank God I don't have a disability and I could not 

handle all of these people who are just so absolutely irritated. 

It's all of these things that are feel good suggestions but they all 

don't work. I would love Frank for you to go around I will go 

with you we will go and spend a day understanding what access 

for people with disabilities is like relying on other people. You 

will kill yourself.

>> Ed Hoff, New Jersey Transit. The reality is there are signs 

that are so wordy it's impossible to put a sign on the wall in 

raised letter Braille. We have to come up with a solution to not 

only put it in some fashion that's visual but also audible. I don't 

mean that it's standardized audible but some way of 

communicating it audibly.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I am wondering if it's possible.

>> If we are going to put a sign informing anybody of 

anything that means we need to inform everybody of that. And 

so, there are many people who can't read Braille or raised letter 

we need to tell them the same information that people are 
seeing on the walls. If we don't think it's that important or if we 

can shorten it and put it on a sign go ahead if it's important 

enough to put it visually on a wall it's also important to get that 

to communicate that to people who can't see it or read it.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Yes. Because and that -- or read it 

that's equally important. It goes to a much larger commune tee 

than just the disability community how many people even read 

or speak read or understand English in this country today that's 

just another issue. What I am wondering is a question that I 

have, is the emergency lighting system on, for instance, a 

train -- let's say Amtrak train that loses power has emergency 

lighting system. Would it be conceivable that within the next 10 

years that -- a monitor type some kind of a VMS could be 

attached to that same emergency system so that you would be 

getting emergency information via VMS that would also be 

audible. That you wouldn't have an issue of losing the power 

because you -- it would be connected to the emergency 

lighting. I am wondering if something like that wouldn't be a 

solution.

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Terry this is Blair from Amtrak. I 

think that to try to anticipate what is coming is tough, but I 

know that we are -- the short answer is yes.

You know, how that can be done, I don't know. There is a lot 

of things out there now, we think about the electrical system on 
the existing cars in new vehicles there are already changes that 

were put into place by APTA and ultimately FRA around 

emergency lighting, and how it behaves. And if you cut the car 

in half, the halves still have emergency lighting because of the 

way the new light systems are set up. They are in the 

dependent on a big battery under the car anymore they are 

independently powered. There are a lot of things that are out 

there that could fold over eventually into communications. I 

don't want to even pretend to think of all of the different ways 

that that might happen. But we did try something oh, gosh 10 

years ago based on the -- like the greeting card that you get 

that you can record except it was extended version and it was if 

you saw it, it was a plain white Braille card and when you opened 

it up it spoke to you. It told you in a fairly quiet voice so it 

wasn't disturbing just a talking voice the features of the vehicle. 

Where you could find things and what to expect where things 

might be at what level. We never really did anything with it 

because the big concern was where will it be. And who is going 

to make sure that it's there. But you can -- I don't like to give 

the FRA too many ideas for those of them on the phone. But 

you can make items at least for FRA governed things that are 

part of the daily inspection for the vehicle. And if they 

don't -- if they are not there, the train doesn't go. And when 

you put it in those terms, you will be surprised at how often 
things are where they are supposed to be. Now, that even 

includes daily inspections for us include emergency signs, lots 

of -- lots of those kinds of things that you may have a sign 

missing on the door where there is two required. That won't 

keep the train from going necessarily that sign has to be 

replaced in so many days. So, there is a lot of that kind of thing 

out there that could give us the means to make sure that stuff is 

on the train.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. Thank you. Can we --

>> Terry, this is Cliff. I want to say I think we need to keep 

in mind when talking -- when speaking about Braille that 

obviously it's only about 10 to 15% tops of people who read line 

Braille I am not trying to discourage Braille but I think we need 

to bring broader when we think in terms of raised lettering, 

there are people who don't read Braille I want to caution us on 

the not to think in Braille. As mentioned auditory, there are a lot 

of systems out there you see them in museums and various 

places where there is a plaque and button next to it you push it 

will tell you exactly what the plaque says we need to think in 

grander terms that's all.

>> TERRY PACHECO: My feeling as well, I personally am no 

good at reading raised lettering. Especially if it's only just a half 

inch high. Especially if I am in a hurry in emergency I am going 

to sit there R, I --
 (LAUGHTER)

>> TERRY PACHECO: That's not going to happen.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> TERRY PACHECO: But I think you make a very good. I 

think our real issue is that's why I asked the question that Blair 

answered the short answer being yes, is we still need to make 

especially the emergency information available in an emergency. 

Which can very often mean without electricity. And that's 

where -- that's our biggest concern we don't want to leave 

everyone in the dark literally.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: Terry?

>> TERRY PACHECO: Yes. Chris?

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: No, I am going to defer to Marsha.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: I just wanted to mention that there was a 

study done some time ago I was checking my records I don't 

have it, and I can contact (inaudible) and ask her for it. She did 

study people trying to use directions for evacuation she used 

both audible, I think signs, as well as raised letter signs and 

perhaps Braille. I am not sure. I think maybe she couldn't get a 

sufficient number of Braille readers for the study. It was a small 

study. And I -- if I am characterizing the results correctly, the 

audible signs the audible directions were won hands down in 

terms of people getting the information and proceeding to exits. 

But I will contact her and ask her for that.
>> TERRY PACHECO: I would appreciate that.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: The information and see if we can't 

provide it to you.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I know some of her -- some of her 

studies can be very helpful.

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Terry this is Blair. I will say one more 

quick thing Bob Reuter held up a safety cards back there from 

Amtrak Marc they copied us.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: The -- we used to have a big sign on 

the bulk head of every car at each end of the car a huge sign it 

told all about the emergency exit things and how to take the 

windows out and everything. The problem was that the first the 

first rows of seats could see it because of where it was. And it 

didn't matter how big it was you just simply as you moved back 

in the car you didn't see it. The concern is we weren't getting 

the information to everyone. So, we struck a happy medium 

with the FRA that said if you put the seat back cards like the 

airlines and make sure they are there and it's a part of 

inspection now, then you can take that big sign down and we 

know that everybody has access to the information. So, if we 

think about conveying information in those kinds of terms from 

a systematic approach regardless what the delivery method is 

electronic paper or sign on a wall, if the goal is reached at the 
end of the day I think we have done our job. I would just 

encourage everyone to keep an open mind about how it's 

achieved in the long run. Even though as Chris said if you shake 

the card the cards will fall out it's not a part of the card there 

has to be a way to manage that aspect.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry, for folks to be aware, it's 

11:30. So --

>> TERRY PACHECO: I know.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: It's time check for all of you guys.

>> TERRY PACHECO: We have, I think we finished through 

that part we are down to the last bulleted area I think.

>> JIM PECHT: Jim again. Last few things additional notes 

VMS must include audible versions. Bullet 2, stop 

announcements and other audible announcements should be 

pre-recorded high quality messages 3, human announcements 

should be kept to a minute number this is especially important 

for station stop announcements. And bullet 4, service animal 

relief area information, I emphasize information, should be 

made available on the wall nearest the ISA where -- nearest 

where the ISA is placed.

>> TERRY PACHECO: As -- I will tell you a quick funny story 

about that as Jim pointed out to me originally, he said what if 

the ISA is on the floor do we really want people down on the 

floor thinking that this is the dog relief area.
 (LAUGHTER) So that's

why it's reworded to the way it is.

 (LAUGHTER)

>> TERRY PACHECO: So, all of you on Amtrak can let the 

cleaners of the trains know that we are thinking fondly about 

them. Okay. And then in addition to those bullets now we will 

add a couple of the things that we now put on the October 

agenda will get added to the bullets. What I would like to see us 

do now is take about 10 minutes and literally go around and 

look at these signs, look at our walls let's do a quick wall tour. 

Start with the front end of the train is the back of the room. 

Front end of the train was the back of the room I want today be 

sure. Let's go around a do a quick tour and so that we all get an 

idea of just what people are saying is this is too big is sign not a 

good location. And see what -- we may come up with 

suggestions from that. Let's just take 10 minutes I have it at 

11:30 now be back in our seats at 20 minutes of thank you.

>> Give us a quick (inaudible)

>> Excuse me this is the operator. What time are you 

returning back from break?

>> This is not break we are still in session.

>> Okay let me restore you thank you.

>> No problem. We are good. Just so everybody knows I do 

have Jonathan Michel on the line and I have a Bill, code 213, 
everyone on the call, your lines are open.

>> FRANK MALDARI: If you want to give me a quick walk 

around. At the back of the room.

(Discussion off record.) 

>> FRANK MALDARI: On both sides they are above the door 

on the adjacent wall. On the adjacent wall I mean we could 

cover the whole wall with a decal with emergency instructions 

you can't cover the whole door that's why the question is, do 

you really need to put every single sign meeting the 

requirements. Go ahead.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. So where do you have this all of 

this verbiage now?

>> Way, way up here.

>> FRANK MALDARI: It's on the top of the door there is one 

on the top of the door one adjacent to the door.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay.

>> Melissa: And then there is one there.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Why are these there and (indicating). 

What I am getting at is why is this as big as this as big as it is, 

when that's -- this is the window. This is a window, okay. So, 

this but this is it's up too high anyway doesn't it make sense to 

put this here? If that door is open.

>> You all have to use the mic because the CART is still 

running.
>> TERRY PACHECO: I'm sorry. I am just and that 

side -- that's

>> Janice: Frank on this emergency intercom you know one 

thing we never discussed is adding induction shun loop to that 

we have that in elevators right now for the emergency intercom 

it works perfectly you see it in elevators in England. So could we 

add that to our list?

>> TERRY PACHECO: Add that on to our -- remind me when 

we get back down there I don't have the notebook with me. 

That's a very good point.

>> I will send you a photo.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay.

>> FRANK MALDARI: We can discuss it with the group.

>> It's doable.

>> FRANK MALDARI: I don't doubt it is

>> Hi Marilyn I want to keep in mind we are talking about 

new cars not about you are changing existing cars. So, I just 

think that we should factor that into this discussion.

>> FRANK MALDARI: No just the point is new car is going to 

look similar like I said before, we put -- just listen for a second. 

We put this as many signs as we do really to capture the 

attention of people who aren't paying attention rather than to 

capture just a few people's attention. So what I am saying is, 

yes, you could put a large sign somewhere but do you want to 
limit the amount of signs by requiring everyone to be accessible 

that's just a question. I am pointing out to you here in this 

particular in-- instance we have the sign above the door to get 

people's attention we also have it on the adjacent vestibule to 

get people's attention.

>> TERRY PACHECO: This door is aligned into this 

(indicating).

>> FRANK MALDARI: This is the door pocket.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Oh, okay. That's what it was.

>> This is Cliff from the National Council I want to say I am 

been hearing this stuff from Frank saying all of this information 

yet at the same time I have heard him say before he began the 

people not paying attention to that that negates all of this 

information. It seems to me sometimes you are going to have 

overload of information therefore having people specifically not 

pay attention because you have too much of it. Perhaps if you 

had less information that would force them to pay for attention 

then we address accessibility. I would say perhaps we do need 

to think about cutting back on all of this information and make 

sure whatever information we do have is accessible to everyone. 

Okay.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Next sign here is picture of the 

entrance to the bathroom. The side door is on the left it's a 

view book looking from the vestibule directly at the bathroom. 
And down the aisle of the car. As can you see the handle is at 

the corner because you will see from other views it's the 

necessary location in order to allow a wheelchair person to get 

into the bathroom in this particular case. But you know, as 

shown on the sign, the restroom sign becoming #-00% 

compatible is not a big deal there is a lot of real estate there in 

that particular case that's not a big change to require that to be 

accessible some of these other signs, get a little problematic we 

are going to wind up probably cutting down on the number of 

signs if each sign has to be bigger. That's an advertisement 

static

>> TERRY PACHECO: But it's going to be really easy to put it 

over that one.

>> FRANK MALDARI: It's advertising space. The next sign 

here is looking at a typical emergency window and passenger 

compartment. There is instruction removal sign that's currently 

shown in black and white. And then we super sized it 

immediate the ADA requirements. This is one of the 

signs -- there haven't been a lot of them, that are problematic 

when you start to increase the size. As you can see, this 

particular sign would take up virtually the whole window 

negating the window aspect of the emergency window. One of 

the things that you see is the luggage rack is directly above the 

emergency exit sign increasing the size of the emergency exit 
sign slightly Mo not a big deal trying to put the instructions in 

that area is impossible because it would be blocked by the 

luggage rack. 

>> TERRY PACHECO: That could be reformatted you could 

make it somewhat smaller.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Well, I -- I am not expert in 

reformatting. It probably -- hopefully could be reduced to 

some amount and maybe allowing some flexibility in the way it's 

formatted to help it fit in the space available. That's what I am 

talking about with the regulations maybe there are ways to be 

lenient more lenient in how the decal is set up to provide it to be 

in the space provided. All right. Walking down this is another 

view of the talking area for wheelchairs. This is a side door 

view. Again, you can seat emergency instruction signs above 

sign on the door window. It's both the original and the one with 

Braille and raised lettering even though it's slightly bigger it's 

not a tremendous burden. And in this particular case I don't 

think it's a big deal. Also on this one picture is the priority 

seating sign. If I understand the regulations correctly, the text 

has to be below the caricatures or the figures. So, this sign 

winds up being a requirement whereas this sign on the top 

would work a little better and fit in the space provided if there 

was the flexibility of reformatting it. This the existing sign just 

says priority seating. We have heard a lot of complaints about 
people not getting up so we have added some additional 

wording to our sign to try to make it clear that you have to get 

out of the seat.

>> TERRY PACHECO: But this is harder for someone is low 

vision to see because the ISA is smaller here than it is here. I'm 

sorry. The difference is that this is mauler for someone with low 

vision to see than this. This stands out much more than this 

does. This of course stands out best of all (indicating). That's 

the one issue that I see about that. This here, I think this here 

to me this is pretty much the ideal. It would be something on 

this idea (indicating). Perhaps being able to narrow it margins a 

little.

>> FRANK MALDARI: That doesn't fit really, it's a curvature.

>> TERRY PACHECO: It doesn't fit well if you could narrow 

the margins a bit or perhaps change font

>> FRANK MALDARI: We could lay it out sideways.

>> TERRY PACHECO: This here I can talk to and read this is 

over my head that's the difference.

>> FRANK MALDARI: This would have to be shrunk down 

even more.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Right. The difference is if I needed to I 

could walk up and read it like this. I can't do that with that. 

That's the problem is over signage in general.

>> FRANK MALDARI: But the seat is here it's not here that's 
the problem. The priority seat is here it's --

>> TERRY PACHECO: Right. But I can get in even if I am on 

the side I can get to this there is still a possibility of 

getting -- anything that's at eye level, roughly is always 

more -- you have more people can use it then.

>> Or a short person with a visual problem.

>> FRANK MALDARI: This is the space you have use this 

space or this space here it's long this it's horizontal.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Long is better that's our viewpoint on 

it.

>> FRANK MALDARI: Okay. This is the last sign this is the B 

end of the car looking out of the B end or the back of the train. 

This is the end door this is passenger seats this is the VMS sign 

it's off in this particular case. These are a couple of the same 

decals we had on the other side. We did blow them up 

fortunately there is space on the wall looks like we could lay it 

out without it being a big problem.

>> TERRY PACHECO: That's fine there.

>> FRANK MALDARI: The assaulting one I didn't get a chance 

to increase it would take up all of this space if it had to be 

reformatted.

>> TERRY PACHECO: All right. Well, thank you very much 

Frank. Thank you both. This is the only VMS sign on the 

vehicle? Did I miss one?
>> FRANK MALDARI: No there are a number of VMS signs on 

the vehicle we try to make it so every area had a VMS signs we 

didn't get them in the pictures there were too pictures there are 

at least four on the car.

>> Don Mebius LTK the question I had in conversations 

talking about sizes, you know we have iPads now is there 

something that could be utilized a larger screen where the signs 

rotate so that now you have this sign up it's up for a little while 

and then the next one.

>> FRANK MALDARI: It has to be in various letters.

>> It doesn't address that you are right.

>> FRANK MALDARI: It sounds like a good idea.

>> It only addresses that one part.

>> TERRY PACHECO: You lost me on the iPad.

>> Don: That type of approach screen.

>> TERRY PACHECO: A screen right I understand.

>> FRANK MALDARI: The problem is making a screen out of 

the visual impact as well.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I thought you were talking about via 

the Internet. Yeah. VMS we haven't touched -- also, we haven't 

touched on color contrast. The fact that --

>> FRANK MALDARI: This is the black -- I don't know if you 

can see clearly the black red background is the worst one black 

background with red lettering.
>> That's the worst color combination for anything the 

green or blue or yellow are all generally considered better and 

there are a whole lot -- that's one area where there is a lot of 

evidentiary information available to us. Thank you all very 

much.

(Discussion off record.)

>> TERRY PACHECO: If everyone is finished viewing could we 

get back to your seats so we can finish off here, please? 

Rose Marie: Seats everyone. Everyone return to your seats.

(Discussion off record.)

>> TERRY PACHECO: Could we have everyone back now 

please? We want to start again. Thank you. 

>> Terry can I raise an issue sitting down it's not related to 

this but very, very important that we think about it.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Certainly.

>> That is the issue of chemical sensitivity in materials 

being used to make any of these future cars. We need to find a 

way to think about chemical sensitivity. And there are many 

measures now that exist today to do this. So, I don't hear that 

there is no way to do that. But I believe strongly that that is an 

issue that we need to discuss somewhere and somehow.

>> TERRY PACHECO: And anyone know what committee 
should deal with that?

>> I don't know.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I am thinking maybe special what is it 

seating and special spaces? I do think it's a -- it's a very valid 

point. I just I am not sure that we are the ones to deal with it. 

But that definitely should come up in one of the committee 

meetings tomorrow.

>> FRANK MALDARI: I am a little confused what the question 

is typically the interiors are designed they are nontoxic so to 

speak. Is it a question about the cleaning materials or is it a 

question about the actual materials itself.

>> This is Cliff. You don't know what you just said about 

whatever it is you said you don't know that at all. That have to 

be determined by people with chemical sensitivity anything that 

goes into whether it's the materials the making of the vehicle, 

cleaning material, all of that we need to seriously start thinking 

about people with chemical sensitivity. That's what I am saying 

and the question is not difficult.

>> TERRY PACHECO: All right. I am going to ask the most 

scariest question of all, I think at least it is to me. I am going to 

return the tables just slightly. We have been through this now 

we know that these bulleted points and the other issues that 

have -- that we have brought up this morning are going on the 

October 2nd agenda. I would like to give the Access Board staff 
it the opportunity to tell us what else they want from this 

committee besides the recommendations -- now that they have 

had a chance to see what issues are important to this 

committee, and you know, where we are headed in 

recommendations, what else they would like to see from this 

committee. I goes we are doing a good job is that it?

 (LAUGHTER)

>> JIM PECHT: Clearly what we are looking for is your list of 

recommendations. I think that's what's important to you guys is 

what we are looking for. I need to go back one minute and talk 

a little bit about announcements. And what we can and can't do 

with regards to announcements of any sort.

As far as the guidelines and the standards are concerned. I 

don't think that we can require announcements. I don't think 

that we can require when announcements are broadcast. And 

for the most part I don't think that we can require specific 

wording. We can make recommendations on certain things I 

don't think we can do that. What we can do is say that when 

announcements are made, they have to be accessible. And that 

is what you guys need to talk about as to how to do that. So, 

someone said that they were on a train this morning no 

announcement was given they should have made 

announcement. Well the standard is not going to tell you that. 

The standard will say no announcement was made no one was 
given any information therefore no one was discriminated 

against no one got the information. Should the information 

have been given yeah probably but that is not going to be 

something that we are going to be dealing with DOT may have 

something to say about it in the reg we aren't going to look at 

that with regard to the standard Marilyn?

>> MARILYN GOLDEN: Marilyn Golden from DREDF am I on? 

Now it is AH. Maybe this was discussed, this committee could 

compile a list of matters that we hope DOT will consider when 

issuing its reg that would be parted of our report. And that 

would go fully to -- would go eventually to DOT hopefully some 

of us could send it or something. Why not? And this 

issue -- somebody make a list. Maybe I will make a list. But 

what was the issue? Anyway, this issue should go on it.

>> JIM PECHT: I think we would welcome those things as far 

as making recommendations I would hope that you could do it 

off line as much as possible. Because quite frankly this 

committee is a little bit behind with regards to the bulk of what 

we need to do as far as getting done. We haven't talked a lot 

about technical requirements we have been in scoping land for 

most of the document most of the discussion, and then there 

are some big issues that we need to sort of talk about whether 

communication in general. You are starting to get there with 

regards to visual and audible and when you do and what you do 
and how you do it. I guess that's what we are looking for as far 

as direction from you guys as to how you want to proceed with 

that.

>> TERRY PACHECO: I think we have been doing an awful lot 

of that actually. Anybody else from the staff have anything that 

they want to add?

>> MARSHA MAZZ: (inaudible)

>> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. All right.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry, just one general observation 

on what we saw on the walls. I think it's

>> TERRY PACHECO: I don't think you are on mic.

>> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay. One general observation 

about what was put on the walls. Just coming from a design 

background. Visual examples are extraordinarily helpful. The 

challenge is to also be mindful that when you apply to existing 

objects, buildings, posts, sidewalks, you may see obstacles that 

are not necessarily present in future design.

And what I mean by that is, some objects that may be 

located in a site or in a car in this instance, today, may not 

necessarily need to be exactly where they are in the future -- in 

a future design. And so, as folks think about the future, we 

should be mindful that there is to a degree, not completely, but 

to a degree there is a bit of an open plate or a blank canvas so 

to speak. Not fully blank but you have more flexibility in new 
designs than you do necessarily in existing. And I say that as 

someone that's struggled to help a group of plaintiffs out, in a 

transit agency come to some reasonable agreement about what 

they should do with their existing cars as they rebuild them. 

There is the perfect and then there is reality for existing 

vehicles. So, I just ask folks to bear that in mind.

>> Terry this is Melissa Anderson.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Yes.

>> at some point the subcommittee will want to go back and 

look at the issues list developed by the full committee to make 

sure you are add -- you are addressing the concerns at the 

beginning of the committee development.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Yeah, I think you make a good point. 

Periodically we have gone over it truthfully I don't think I have 

looked at it in the last two months. I am not sure about anyone 

else we should put it on the agenda for the October 2nd 

meeting. Let me add that on.

Okay. Anyone have anything else that they want to bring up 

for this committee this morning? Hearing none, we have what a 

half hour before the RVAAC committee as a whole meets? I 

would suggest that we run and grab lunch and bring it back 

here. Anyone have any objections to that? Hearing none -- I'm 

sorry? Paul is shaking his head yes.

 (LAUGHTER)
>> TERRY PACHECO: Paul's -- I have it figured out Paul must 

have made lunch for all of us he is ready to serve it.

>> I want to say one thing about Terry and -- my mom used 

to tell me, I can't hear your head rattle. So --

 (LAUGHTER) 

>> JIM PECHT: Speak up and say things don't just wave and 

shake your head.

>> TERRY PACHECO: Paul, does Paul want to say something?

>> BILLY ALTOM: Just quickly what I want to remind folks 

this is Billy, we will take a break now. We are going to come 

back at 12:30. So, if you request grab lunch bring it back so we 

can continue to work because we still got a lot to get through

this afternoon and tomorrow. So we have two -- a day and a 

half still left so let's take a quick break grab a bite to eat and we 

will start again at 12:30, so operator thank you very much.