Note: The output shown below is from the Communication

Access Realtime Translation (CART) system used in the Communications Subcommittee Meeting #8 and is generally unedited. The CART system was used to provide an accommodation to persons with hearing loss and persons who are deaf, and was streamed in real

-time and available to the public on the internet during the meeting.

Rail Vehicles Access Advisory Committee Communications Subcommittee Meeting #8 U.S. Access Board Thursday, September 11, 2014

>> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you. Good morning. This is the 8th meeting of the communications subcommittee. And as you know from the agenda, later this m orning, or actually this afternoon, the rail vehicles access advisory committee will be meeting right now this is strictly the subcommittee meeting. As you know, subcommittees anybody may participate in conversations. And for those in the audience, if yo u want to participate you are allowed as if you were a full subcommittee member. The only thing we ask two things: Like first everybody to remember to use a microphone. And second give your nameso purposes of the CART operator and the record we know wh o

is speaking. Speaking of CART we do not have a chat box of those that are monitoring this subcommittee call in the later advisory committee meeting desire to communicate or make a statement or ask a question, please send your statement, question to the RVAAC mailbox which is RVAAC @

access
- board.gov. And that site will be monitored and communicated to the chair or subcommittee chair. Again, remember to give your name when speaking, your next subcommittee meeting will probably be October 2nd. Since we are recommending staff is recommending the committee follow the sequence of every Thursday being a conference call but for different subcommittees. Let's go around the room and introduce everybody introduce themselves we will start with the chair of the s ubcommittee Terry. Some of you also regarding the microphones there is a little button at the bottom press it and you should have a flashing green light. >> TERRY PACHECO: Terry Pacheco representing the American Council of the Blind. >> Jim Pecht staff.
> > CHRISTOPHER HART: Chris Hart liaison for Access Board. >> This is Uwe Rutenberg Montreal. >> Blair Slaughter Amtrak >> Terry Soesbee RailPlan.>> Robert Carlson with the Community Transportation

Association.
>> Andre Gagne representing Bombardier.
>> Crystal Lyons Southwest. >> Jon Holbrook A l stom Transportation.
>> David Hughson Maryland Transit Authority. >> David Gayle Hearing Loss Association of America. >> Debra Patkin National Association for the Deaf, NAD. >> Ed Hoff New Jersey Transit. >> Marilyn Golden Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund or DREDF. >> Clifton Perez independent living center

-- National Council on Independent Living. >> David Martinez Metro Chicago. >> Frank Maldari MTA New York.
>> Billy Altom April >> Bob Reuter Access Systems and Paralyzed Veterans colonial. >> Melissa Anderson, Access Board staff.
>> Marsha Mazz, Access Board staff. >> Lisa Fairhall Access Board staff. Thanks. >>Rose Marie, Access Board staff. >> Ken Shiotani National Disability Rights Network. >> Dan Viser.>> Don Mebius, LTK Engineering.

>> Metro Chicago >> Gricelda Cespedes, MTA New York. >> Lou Woolner with Virginia Railway Express. >> Thomas (inaudible) Department of Justice. >> Everybody in the room. >> Rose Marie: Yes. >> PAUL BEATTY: Who is on the conference call line >> I have Melissa Shurland. Calvin Gibson. Keith Frasier. Linda M artin. And Glenn Millis. Paul >> PAUL BEATTY: Thank you Rose. Terry, I am going to turn it over to you for the subcommittee. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you, Paul. Good morning everyone. I want to thank you all for coming. I want a quick apology for the rearranging at the last minute of the agenda but it was necessary so that everyone could be represented. I hope it didn't create too much inconvenience for s ome of you especially coming in from out of town. I also would like to thank everyone who has been on this committee. This is

-- I didn't realize our 8th meeting I know some of are beginning to feel like old friends seems like they have been doing this for a very long time now. And some

-- and our committee has just done a lot of great work together, I think we have learned enough a lot

-- learned an awful lot from one another. We havebeen

-- it's kind of ironic the name of the committee is the

communi cation, because I think that we have in the long run really done an awful lot of communication building among advocates, providers, rail companies, most everyone. We have really come a long way from where we started. And that's due in great part to everyone on the committee just working together. And I do really appreciate it and thank you all very much. The Access Board staff has been fabulous. Melissa has filled in a couple of

-- has done a lot of work for us she filled in a couple of times when the p erson who has done absolute yeoman's work for the committee is Jim Pecht I personally want to thank him for all he has done for us over these last several months. And all of the rest of the staff at the Access Board. One of the

-- something that I am sure virtually no one since I am the blind person in the building

-- in the room or I think I am there may be one other I am not sure. And I noticed it, everybody else has to have the wall back here coming in. Blair Slaughter and Frank Maldari and I think th ey got a couple of other people I am sure they got a few other people in their organizations have done a fabulous job I want to thank them. I think we all are going to be able to take advantage of the presentation that's taking that entire wall. Who knew that a train vestibule could be that big. (LAUGHTER)>> TERRY PACHECO: The purpose of it was so that we could

take the signs and put them up and look at them and actually see just how much space does this type of sign take. What is the best type of s ize for raised print. Size for

-- just a visual sign. What about VMS, visual messaging? All of that. What we did discover very early on, on this committee is we were not all coming from the same mind set. We were not all looking at what

-- we all had different images in our minds of what each type of signage would be. Like we have different images of how much space does a wheelchair which type of wheelchair does a wheelchair need to turn around. Just what is best for someone who has a hearing loss as opposed to someone who is profoundly deaf. Someone who is low vision as opposed to totally blind. There are

-- we are all coming from different perspectives, we need to unify, we need to be able to work together and understand what each other's needs are. And I think this is a great way for us to do that for all of the cup committees. We will be leaving this presentation up for all of the committees to use for

-- and for everyone here just to get an idea, you know. We are going to be taking notes and such as a committee of the whole on the recommendations of the subcommittees. We really need to understand it. I mean, I know myself boarding and alighting is nowhere

near
-- is not an area that I know anywhere near as much aboutas I do about signage, fo r instance.

And I am sure that there is you know situations that are vice

-versa. So, we do have that, I want to thank Blair and Dave and the people who have helped put that up, put that together and put it up. I also have something else, we are going to b e coming across in this meeting, the areas in which we have been working. And one of them is to do with audible messaging. Audible announcements, that type of thing. We have had some varying opinions, again, on whether they should be automated or they

s hould be human. I have some samples from various trains of good and not so good human announcements. And if anybody is interested in seeing what they think

-- doing self evaluating on the intelligibility of them you are more than welcome to

-- I have them here today we have not put them up there but it's up here. If you wanted to listen to the thing it probably takes 10 or 15 minutes. I have it if anyone is interested in listening to it. Okay. I think that's all of my notes as of this point. Paul, I'm s orry Jim put up our summary on the website. If there is anyone who

-- I don't know

-- has everyone seen it, read it, had any additional thoughts on it? One of the

-- one other very quick thing through this meeting that I want to point out. If anyone doe s want to speak don't just raise your hand because I won't see it. Speak out loud and say Terry, you know,or whatever your name is I am much more apt to recognize you.

If you raise your hand I guarantee I won't be able to see you to recognize you. Hope fully I will hear you. So anyone that does please just make it known audibly. Okay. Let's go through this summary and see what's left that needs to be done and where we have already come. And I am going to ask Jim so that I don't have the paper in front of the microphone I am asking Jim to read down it

-- read through each piece as we come to it if anyone has comments please let us know.
>> JIM PECHT: Okay. This is Jim Pecht principles these guiding principles have been used in our work they can build inclusive environment. Number 1 information being conveyed to passengers must be made available to all passengers regardless of disability whenever feasible visual tactile induction loop electronic software and other universally accessible means should be used to provide maximum inclusion of all people. 2 audible announcements must be made available visibly and via induction loops. 3, visual announcements (variable message signs VMS ) must be made audibly and induction loop. If there is high definition video audio description and ALS should be incorporated. 4, pre

- recorded announcements are recommended over human announcements. >> TERRY PACHECO: Stop there. Anyone have anycomments? I have one quick one I noticed that I have to

apologize for omitting. And that's in number 1 we did not include captioning. I think we need to add that in there. Does anyone else have any other comments on the principles that we have been following? >> FRANK MALDARI: This is Frank Maldari. One of the questions I had is about advertisings. I don't know we talked about it to any degree at the meetings what category and what requirements are for advertisemen ts? >> TERRY PACHECO: Very good subject. Anyone have any thoughts on it? >> Terry? Ken Shiotani. Just as a piece of information for folks, the Portland streetcar stop announcements the stops are sponsored by real estate companies or local companies in their neighborhood, and so, the stop announcement says approaching stop F Street sponsored by Jones Realty or something. So, just a

-- just an example of what is done in one transit system that I have ridden on. You know, whether that's necessary or not, I don't know but since the real estate company, I guess, sponsors the shelter that is what transit agency has decided to do with their stop announcements. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. >> MARSHA MAZZ: A principle that we use for the kinds of advertisements that you might see on an ATM is that if theadvertise

-- if the advertisement relates to any kind of

transaction that you might do at that ATM, in other words, if they say, you know, enter 30 and you will get >> TERRY PACHECO: An extra 30 dollars. >> MARS HA MAZZ: Free tickets to the show next door whatever. Then that has to be accessible. But if it's merely advertisement like you might get on the back of your receipt from giant you get all of those coupons and stuff you can't use them then and there but use them at the next trip, we don't require them to be accessible. So, it may be that you want to address advertisements where they say something like, you know, passengers any passengers on the train wanting a discount coupon for drinks at the next stop, you know, maybe that should be accessible but if it's an advertisement brought to you by Hostess cupcakes maybe that doesn't need to be. Something like that. >> TERRY PACHECO: Good thoughts. Anyone else? >> Marilyn Golden from DREDF. I just want to tha nk Ken for giving me the opportunity to say, we don't recommend stop announcements to have ancillary information that is not the name of the stop. For a lot of reasons there is more to say about that but we will stop there for especially since that's not what we are really asking. I mean, I think Marsha it's good for her to say what isrequired today.

I don't know it should change I don't know if the different modalities of communication suggest different ways of handling advertisements. >> This is Janice Schacter Lintz, hi Terry. Sorry I was late but the train was late. You know, this is a little off topic but it's with advertisements

-- I know, it's kind of ironic, the train was late. (LAUGHTER) >> Jersey Transit broke down.
>> I don't know what it was Amtrak. By the way there was no announcements as we discussed at this meeting telling us even more the loud speaker why we were late or we were going to be late. We just showed up an hour late. As we discussed through the meeting about people you k now will be advised during emergencies, we were never advertised. I have no idea why I am late. You know, one thing that I wanted to mention when discussing advertisements I don't think the Access Board has any control over this. But more of an advisory is when the rails are promoting or advertising it would be nice to include the different ADA symbols within their advertisements. And I don't think that's something that this group has oversight over it's something I want to put out there for people to b ring back to their own rails. If we get access in and we have all of the rightsignage on the trains, if we don't promote that access in the

advertisements when it's being promoted then no one will know about it. It means you actually have to take the trains to see the sign, and it should be a positive thing of getting people to come back to trains who might be afraid to take the trains for not having the information and promoting what access has now been implemented. By I don't know if we have the overs ight of that. We have to connect all of the dots and part of it is getting people to come back on the train.
>> Excuse me, this is the operator. >> TERRY PACHECO: Yes. >> Did someone call for the operator? >> PAUL BEATTY: No. >> Okay. Thank you.
>> Bob Reuter here. This morning there was a delay on the Marc train coming in in fact I was intentionally watching the delay was both audio and visual. But the fact that the train wasn't making all stops they the they turned the local train into express train and skipped several stops. That was never done on the captioning on the display. It was audio, the PA announcer said this train will not stop west Baltimore et cetera but it never showed up on the display the visual display. So, I can imagine you know s ay something like David got on there he didn't know he couldn't get off at Halethorpe, this would be aninteresting thing there that it worked halfway.

>> This is Linda FRA I had a comment. >> TERRY PACHECO: Go ahead, Linda.
>> I just had a comment. We have gotten inquiries in the past and we actually talked to you all at the Access Board about it, about whether or not it was appropriate to have advertisements imbedded truncated domes for instance. And we said no, because the point of the truncated domes not only to warn people of

-- from field but also visually there is supposed to be a contrasting material. So presumably if you put an advertisement for whatever, you know, imbedded in that it would have to be different colors which would confuse people
t hat rely on it. But it might be analogous to other things you talked about what Marilyn talked about preferring not to have advertisements at the end of station stops, mainly because the point of that information is to communicate the use of transportatio n, and the usability of transportation. And if you confuse it with advertisements for the iPhone 6 or whatever, you know, you may actually lose the value of the clarity. And oftentimes people with disabilities, you know, sometimes cognizantly impaired th ose type of disabilities need that clarity. So, just a thought

-- my thoughts. >> TERRY PACHECO: Anyone else? >> This is Frank at MTA as far as advertisements go it'soptional information it's not necessary for the right it's just

additional optional info rmation I do not think it should be regulated at all other than you don't want it ADA to your
-- ADA

-- added to your station announcements. I find it confusing for somebody getting off at the specific station especially if the stations are close together you have to wait for the advertisement for

-- to go through before you hear the next one. So but that's my suggestion on advertisements I think it doesn't apply

-- the rules writing don't apply to them it's optional media for how it's being transmitted a nd shouldn't be regulated. >> TERRY PACHECO: Except that it seems to me that if it's actually coming through on the VMS, then it would

-- then we would have purview over it wouldn't we? I mean, we are saying

-- >> FRANK MALDARI: We talked about the audio announcements not having the advertisements. Typically I am not going to say in all cases but in your investigations typically the ASI sign system automated station announcements are separate and specifically dedi cated for station announcements and other things for passengers. Any other kind of advertisements would be either static signs like

-- like you see on some of the posters and potentially TV type of signs like you see all over the place now. Everybody has got cheap screensand they put all kinds of advertisements on them. Those are the

two types of media for advertisements but the station identification we keep separate. And it's

-- it's a necessary feature, whereas the advertisements is not a necessary feature. >> TERRY PACHECO: All right. >> Terry this is David Gayle. I have a kind of a small issue I look at the text I don't see anything that addresses for visual signage. That it is required to be real time. Visual announcements or signage it doesn't say anything about real time. I don't know whether it's a given and it's therefore self

- evident or there should be something in there that established that as a requirement. >> TERRY PACHECO: I think we have just taken it as a given because it would only

-- am I correct, I believe it would

-- it would relate to the just to VMS it wouldn't relate to any of the other types of signage, would it? I don't think, it does.
>> He is shaking his head, yes. >> It just relates to VMS. >> TERRY PACHECO: Just to VMS I wanted to be certain. Does anyone have a problem with us putting "real time" in there? Does anyone have other opinions on it? >> FRANK MALDARI: Frank with MTA it's a subtlety in the language but station announcements typically real time by definition, I don't think that you want to say you are at the nextstation three hours after you pasted it. So really time seems

evident if you are identifying stations I don't think you need clarity in that regard. >> Passed. >> This is Robert Carlson we want to con sider the idea of the various modes of delivering the same message if it's audio and it's visual it needs to be within some time parameter. >> TERRY PACHECO: That's what I am thinking >> As opposed to real time if all messages are equally late it's bad. I f you get one message and not the other I think the modes need to be synchronized within a parameter we specify. >> Uwe Rutenberg, real time communication comes mainly into play when you are talking about evacuations or emergencies. Because these messages can typically not be pre
- recorded so and this

-- if there is a need for real time either audio or visual communication. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. David, did you want to say something? >> David: Yes. Hi. I apologize. This is David Nelson. I arrive d late. I want to make sure that I understand what is going on here. So, we are talking about real time

-- so, let's use, for example Washington Union Station we set up the passenger information display systems PIDS they are pre

- canned messages we tried to think of every possible pre

- canned message ouragents no longer make audible announcements however if there

is any type of special announcement that needs to be made we have what is called an ad hoc message where the agent can type in the message, and t hen the system will do both the audio and the visual announcement. So, I think that that could easily be applied to trains. >> TERRY PACHECO: Would that

-- >> David: Does that kind of answer some of the concerns that some people are having or

-- >> TERRY PACHECO: I guess my question on it is, would that be something that would be reasonably available let's say, for instance, on a green line WMATA subway train or on a trolley, something else

-- something

-- in another

-- one of the other types of rail vehi cles than the

-- I am saying over the road. I'm sorry. Than, for instance, Amtrak for something on a much smaller basis or

-- >> David Nelson: Um, so that's a good question. You know, unfortunately I am more focused on

-- focused on the Amtrak because we have conductors who would be able to do the work while our train engineers operate the train. When it comes to Metro, or WMATA they have you know operated

-- they have one basic conductor who runs the subway system so that might be more of an operation al issue where, you know, each transit agency would have to, you know, have some type of plan thatwould

-- maybe they would have somebody centralized to

operate each thing I don't know but that's a good question.
>> Ed Hoff New Jersey Transit I don't thin k it's outrageous to suggest that any rail system could possibly do either speech to text or Text

-to

- Speech technology whether it be on board or by some other means. David mentioned Text

-to

- Speech where somebody types in the message it turns it into an au dible message. The reverse is possible now we can say something the phones have the technology right now to turn that audible message into text. And it's readily available. Or you know, so if you maybe don't have a keyboard available to you on train or light rail system but perhaps speak into a microphone use the speech to text technology with the vehicles we are talking about today that that can't be done. >> TERRY PACHECO: I think it would be fabulous.
>> Good morning, this is Melissa Shurland from FRA

. >> TERRY PACHECO: Yes. >> Can you hear me? >> TERRY PACHECO: Yes. >> Yes. I wanted to echo what Ed said. Two years ago Linda and Gary and I some others attended the APTA conference we specifically went to several of the vendors that were at that conference and asked that question whether or not it was possible to be able to type messages into the system and have itdisplayed on a train car. And they said, yes, it is possible. A lot

of what they develop is dependent on what the customer wants, the serv ice providers. But the technology is available to be able to provide information on the fly on the rail cars. >> FRANK MALDARI: Can I make a quick comment Frank again. We looked into this we have a CART system here and there is somebody who is correcting

-- correcting the messages the reason for that is because not everybody's speech is identical the technology doesn't recognize pronunciation of every word exactly the same. So there is limitations to it. Is it possible, yes. But there is likely to be a lot of corrections that need to be done. Once you get into the area of having to do a correction, now you are talking about having a terminal to type in the message. Cabs of most rail equipment is pretty tight. There is space

-- not a lot of space in t here for the equipment that we have. We are always challenged to minimize the cab space and maximize the passenger space which typically results in not enough room for the engineer to do his job in the first place. So there is a space concern there is a cost concern. Now, you typically

-- well in our particular environment, interest there is a union agreement what they have to do in their responsibilities. Adding new assignment such as typing in a nonstandard message could be a problem for some people. Additionally, there are some operations where there is only anoperator and the operator is busy operating a train he can't be

typing these announcements. At best he can make a

non
- canned audio announcement. But I think, you know, at this point in time, the technology is not there to reliably provide speech to text conversion. And the best that we can do now and try to do is try to can as many messages as we can so that you can pull them up, they will be well enunciated because it was a standard voice you try to get as many of those conditions as you can reliably consistently and accurately rather than try to rely on a speech to text converter. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry

-- >> This is Cliff Perez independent living the National Council of Independent Living I work for them it keeps coming up. The issue about speech to text. Although I agree that the technology is not here yet I don't think that that is a reason not to address this issue. We are talking about the future. And technology cannot improve itself unless it's being used so we can get feedback and so forth. I would not go with the fact that it's not ready today if it's not ready today it will be ready tomorrow. It can only be ready tomorrow if we use it and get feedback and we can work with that so that's my thought on that. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. Does anyone else have any other comments on this before we

-->> Yes, it's Janice. I agree with Cliff. First off, the fact that

there is no space if we have regulations space will be made so that's really a moot point. The same with unions if unions are told there this is a new regulation they adapt people unable to if they can't manage to deal with this they shou ldn't drive a train they have to belief is much more complicated then dealing with speech to text language if you can't

-- if you are overwhelmed by that what you are going to do in a crises situation that's ridiculous reason. And I think, you know, the s peech to language text is getting much better I know on my own iPhone with Siri every time I say something it recognizes my voice it gets better same with the keyboard. I think there is a lot more language recognition. I think we have to plan all of the regulations for changes in technology, right, for the future. And we are not writing regulations based on what is just available today but it has to have an ability to grow and accommodate because the technology is changing really fast. Who would believe we would have a phone on our watch I would never believe it. If we allow

-- if we write the regulations very carefully that allows for growth because it takes longer to change the regulations than technology. We can't be confined to the current technology or we will be having these meeting the rest of our life. We need to avoid it because it doesn't work. People with disabilities fall behind because the regulations don'tkeep up with the technology, and then they fall behind because

they are constantly in the catch up phase. >> Bob Reuter. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you, Janice. Excuse me one moment, Bob. We have an awful lot to cover I am getting a little concerned about time. If anyone has anything that has not already been said, I would

-- what I wou ld like to do is take two more comments in favor two more against and then we will

-- and then move on to the possibility of a motion on this. >> Bob: I am in favor here the reason being in 1991 when we wrote the original regulations, a lot of things were cut out because we can't do we can't do it. They didn't even know it existed we know law a low floor light rail vehicle. We need to think ahead that's the key thing I am having to endorse Janice here. We have to think ahead. These regulations are goin g to be around at least 20 years. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Marsha Mazz. Neither in favor nor against, as a staff person, I just want to point out to the committee that in the

-- in the end, when we take a proposed rule to the Office of Management and Budget, one of the questions that we are going to ask is, is this technology available can it be done. And so, I would suggest to you that

-- and I am frankly quite supportive of looking to the future because we don't revise your rules as often as we might. But Iwou ld recommend that if you are going to advise the board to

push toward cutting edge technology that you also advise us as to how to address the immediate implementation needs for the time when the technology isn't quite there. Do you understand what I am s aying? What do we do

-- what do we require what do we do while we are waiting for that technology to emerge. >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? >> Blair Slaughter from Amtrak. I will be somewhere in the middle of the road as well I have a question for clarification because we tend to think about things in the broad scale in terms of coaches. And of course, in inner

- city and long distance you have a variety of different cars including sleepers and things like that with different compartment s. But first I was just going to say, it's

-- I think it's going to be very critical in the way the language is crafted so that it gives lots of room for creativity in how things are achieved. To the point

-- that was made before the regulations are very hard and arduous to change technology will eclipse it I don't think that's the key to writing it with the goal in mind of communication. When you have an emergency though, you can have situations that are changing in milliseconds. I don't know if at any point we are going to find the technology that can

-- can communicate quickly enough the anxious words of a conductor because his train just went in the river or something crazy.(LAUGHTER)

>> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: We try to avoid that. (LAUGHTER) >> B LAIR SLAUGHTER: Courtesy of other modes of transportation we get there. (LAUGHTER) >> I am going to counter this Ed Hoff Jersey transit he is talking about us. >> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: The shipping industry that

-- >> Emergencies are merge

-- emergencies th ere are reasons for ad hoc messages delays that Amtrak causes other

-- (LAUGHTER) >> Ed: Like we have to switch tracks last minute you wouldn't arrive this track now this one. Not truly an emergency but something is not a canned message but something you have to get out quickly. On board it may be a different message to get across maybe not an emergency but one you would never conceive of initially. So, those are the messages that are the most important. The canned messages the stop announcements

a lot of people can expect them those that don't need to rely on them wholly but can expect based on the number of stops what the next stop may be. Those where things are going slightly different from the norm those are the most important messages that nee d to be broadcast in both audible and visual. Again,leaving emergencies out because emergencies are emergencies

depending on the severity of it there may be no communications in emergencies. And so, actions will have to take place. So, I think there is a middle ground of those unusual events not emergency but unusual that takes away that comfort of the normal that are the most important to people to know about. >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. >> FRANK MALDARI: Yes. This is Frank again. I am agreeing partially with what was said previously. I think the work

-- not about New Jersey they are good people there. No, what I want to clarify is the biggest problem that you have with some regulations is they are too confining. That's what Blair was stating and that' s also what Marsha was stating. You want to have an opportunity to have things get better but at the same time you want to regulate what you can't do reliably now. So, yeah, the important thing is to encourage it but not require it. You know, technology is changing but if you can't do it today and you can't meet the law then there is a whole bunch of people on a project who are in a whole load of trouble trying to figure out how they are going to do this. You have to leave a way out. Canned messages th ey are cumbersome but they can be done easily. Speech to text it is improving. And there is an incentive to get rid of the canned messages to some extent so you can do it on the go. And regulation is not the only reasonwhy you increase communication wi th passengers we have been

putting ASI systems on the cars for the last 15 years it's for communication with our passengers and it's a customer amenity. It's not just

-- it's good for everybody not just a few. You know, we are

-- you know, people are usi ng the new technology to get the new modes of communication and they are evolving. But I think it's a mistake to require a specific thing to be done right now and it can't. But you can make the wording of the regulation suggest or encourage the use of th e new technology but not specifically require a certain type of communication level at this point. >> Terry this is Marilyn. >> TERRY PACHECO: One second please. I think you make a good point frank my only

-- maybe my misunderstanding here I thought when we started all of this we were basically talking not to replace canned messages but to use as an additional. You can't do a canned message to suddenly say, for instance, as the

-- I'm sorry my name is gone your name is gone from me about the change of the train this morning. Information that needs to be changed on the fly. You are not going necessarily be able to use a canned message for that that's what I was talking text to speech and speech to text was something along those lines. I do think that we also do need to look at the future and when, if and when this technology is available for specifictypes, you know maybe it's not commuter maybe it's just long

distance or inter

- city, maybe it's just trolleys. We need to look
at

-- you know that is someth ing that we kind of let go is the idea of various technologies and modes of communication for various types. We just been lumping it on all types of vehicles. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry. >> TERRY PACHECO: Marilyn then Chris. >> MARILYN GOLDEN: I think you are right about different types of rail light rate we have different need different requirements than Amtrak or something like that. Or each of them. But I think Frank really through down a gauntlet a bit so I can't resist. I think

-- I mean I agree th at if a regulation is sort of unexpected and brand new, and required tomorrow, it might put a covered entity in a tight spot if

-- >> TERRY PACHECO: Marilyn, we lost you on the microphone.
>> MARILYN GOLDEN: How is this? Okay. So the thing is it doesn't work like that. You will have an advisory committee report then the Access Board will deliberate and there will be a proposed rule and each of these steps takes time. And then they actually be a final rule and it has to be adopted by DOT in proposed rule they are good about simultaneously doing proposed and rules at the same time as the board. Not always but often. So, that's good. But, still, I mean so if coveredentities are looking dow n the road, and something is proposed,

they can begin

-- and companies they can all begin

-- and you know there is communication between the entities and they can all begin to look toward that and developing products. So, it's not just that is comes down in the blink of an eye, and you never knew. Now, covered entities that wait until not only that the requirement is made, but that the effective date has come. They wait until that day to act on it, yeah, they are in the lurch. But they didn't have to do that. And the debacle we had a couple of years ago with not around transportation but hotel swimming pools and did you have to have lifts and it was

-- you know it was a huge controversy and I won't go into it, but yeah they waited until it became effect ive. But if they looked down the road, there were many indications of what would be required and they had plenty of time to prepare for it, and trains is an area that in particular everything takes a long time. So, there should be plenty of time to reall y implement this principle that the policy should drive the technology. And not the other way around. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. Chris? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: I just want to emphasize that the committee has a lot of work to do and I would strongly sugges t that at this point that you all begin to move on. And I would gently remind all of you here is that you may not actually

-- youare not actually writing a rule but you are providing advisory

guidance to the Board who will actually develop the language for the rule. And so, having a general sense of the committee, which I believe we do have now on this issue, I would suggest that we can move on to the larger agenda, which is on the walls here in the conference room. Now, I would also note that because we have a pretty tight agenda for both days, it may not be necessary for everyone to chime in with similar points. So, with that, I would suggest that we move on. >> I agree Chris I need to add one thing I apologize but this is just

-- I'm sorry but Frank said something that is so inaccurate. While you know, it's a lovely thought that people will thoughtfully do this, I have personally dealt with the MTA. And we did do a pilot project for induction loops in buses. And so, while it was a nice thing they t hen came back and said it couldn't be done even though we piloted it, it was done in London, and we had documented proof it was accomplishable without the regulations people with disabilities have no market force and I am personally tired of being the sher iff in New York and around the country to enforce access. So, that's what I the role I became especially against the MTA that's just a completely inaccurate statement that companies are just going to do it they are not the MTA is probably the worst offend er of this because it's taken 30 years to get elevators into the subway stations inNew York and I'm sorry, I just don't want to hear about cost I am

seeing decorative tile work and art I think is personally beautiful access for people with wheelchairs is much more important. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you Janice. I am totally with Chris I think on this one. Let's move on. I am going to take a little

-- I am going to make a suggestion to the committee that we do one of two things and you can just

-- let's j ust do up and down Aye or nay do we want to take the time now to come up with a proposal on this to put into our recommendations to the RVAAC? Or do we want to take this, write something in the meanwhile. We can via E

- mail and put this as the number one issue on the agenda tore for the October 2 meeting and finish this topic at that time and have it over and done with?
>> The latter. >> TERRY PACHECO: I didn't quite mean to sound like I was pushing my idea on it but

-- anyone actually want to, I think okay there is goes. Does anyone actually have a reason or want to try and write this recommendation this morning? >> No. >> Can't we just get it done? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: This is Chris. One of the things that Jim and I and Access have discussed before the meeting is if it would be helpful if board staff can help you guys or all of the committees work on language so that you don't necessarilyto have

-- have to spend every minute of the last two days

wordsmithing everything. So, there is always that option available. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Terry this is Marsha Mazz at the very beginning of this advisory committee we did ask you to not spend too much time wordsmithing to simply get the principles down get the ideas down on paper, each time a committee has tried to wordsmith and spent a lot of time wordsmithing we found that for various reasons and because of regulatory format and the way that we write our rules, et cetera, we have had to do some rewriting. And I would encourage you to simply get the idea down on pap er, not worry about the wordsmith, we are here, we understand what the intent is, if we don't we will question you. And we can come back to you even while we are writing things to say, now did I understand you to say this? And so, don't

-- please don't waste too much of your precious time

on
-- >> TERRY PACHECO: Exactly I don't think we should. I don't

-- that's my feeling. I am getting the sense from the reaction to the idea of doing it today let me just ask does everyone want to put it on the agenda for the October 2nd meeting? Yes or no? >> Yes. >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. That takes care of it. We willcome up with our recommendation. That's not

-- just for

clarification, for Chris and for Marsha, our coming with of the recommendation is not a matter of the wordsmithing or try willing to

-- trying to write the recommendation or try to go write the regulation we are going to come up with the regulation for you. That's going to be first issue on the October agenda. Okay. Getting back to our summary. >> This is Melissa Anderson. I wanted to point out it's 11 o'clock I am going to be the clock nag today. >> TERRY PACHECO: That's fine. Thank you Melissa. Can we continue on? >> JIM PECHT: Okay. Again this is Jim. Moving on to the sign types proposed requirements. Generally when I talk in terms of visual or tack time or ISA things like that I am referring to what is currently required for discussion purposes in the building standard with regards to what is required there for visual and tactile signs b ut we will go from there. >> FRANK MALDARI: Jim could you give a quick

-- can you give a quick summary of some of the aspects that are required to meet for the guidelines like the lettering height has to have 5/8 inch for visual

-- so people can get a feel for the requirements. >> JIM PECHT: In for time wise, no. I would rather not do that than go into specifics I mean it's out there. Hopefully youhave looked at it we talked about it on occasion. And I think

most of the people in here know what it is we are talking about if we do we can ask specific questions later let's go generally I want to get down the list as quick as I can. A directional signs including exit signs committee said visual only for those. B, designation signs for spaces including exi t signs tactile and visual and the ISA shall be provided at required wheelchair spaces and priority seating and to be located and there is a blank there we didn't say specifically how high off the ground or where for those. The difference in the two exit signs there are directional exits signs versus exit signs which are at the door which I consider designation sign of a space. The exit moving down C, designation signs for elements like fire distinguishers and things not required to meet accessibility req uirements. D, nonemergency informational signs, visual and meet the size requirement for visual where possible or practicable. E, nonemergency operational signs tactile and visual and meet the size requirements for visual characters where practicable. F urthermore where instructions for door latches or locks are provided they shall be both visual and tactile. And be located again specifically specific location wasn't specified as yet. Where pictogram is provided for these uneven instructions a tactile s hall be provided directly adjacent to it, it doesn't say whether above or below just adjacent. F, emergency warninginformation signs, have to be visual and tactile. G, emergency

operational signs have to be visual. H, caution and safety signs including icons and logos have to be visual. I, stop identifications including train designation route and final destination. These signs are required to be in VMS variable message signs. All cars must provide variable message signs in two locations or at least one sign is readable from every part of the car. The variable message sign shall provide equal information as to what is provided orally that means audibly I assume. If stops are announced the signs should be should

-- the signs should announce stops if emergency are announced the they should announce emergencies and so forth. Where cars provide route map tracking signs in two locations so at least one sign is audible and visible from every part of the car. J, menus and directories at least one menu or directory must comply I assume per car. K, employee only signs are not necessary to meet the requirements. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you. One of the things that I

-- that occurred to me in a couple of those, I was one of the them in particular, they were s aying needs to be audible. I think the other issue that we really need to point out they also need to be intelligible. Having something audible and actually being able to understand what that noise is, are two very different issues. And that's, I think that's a very important point.>> JIM PECHT: Jim, this is the phrase you are looking for the

scientific community call it is

-- it's just gone out of my mind. (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: Speech intelligibility >> That's what we need to get in there.
>> Th at what happens when you are old the brain sits down on you. >> TERRY PACHECO: Any quick comments on any of this? >> FRANK MALDARI: I have a quick comments some of the signs and if you look around the room, this one here in particular emergency instructio ns, to make that compliant and visual and tactile it would take up the whole wall right now we have about four per vestibule of that sign two over the doors and at least two more on the passenger compartment. The question is when you require the sign to b e accessible, is it every single sign or is it at least one sign per car because it makes a big difference. We put a lot of signs because you are trying to get people's attention. So they are aware of the emergency instructions. Now, we have to cut down on the amount of the signs if all of those signs had to meet all of the ADA requirements. So, the question is, when you make a requirement that a sign needs to meet the requirements is it every sign of that type in the car, or at least one sign of that
type in the car that is accessible.>> TERRY PACHECO: Do I understand you to say you put

four of the same sign in each vestibule? >> FRANK MALDARI: If you could see the picture here there emergency instructions, we typically have them over the door, you would have to look around the other signs over the side door and they are also on the walls adjacent to the vestibule. So, they also

-- they also happen to be HPPL they provide illumination if you lose lighting. But the idea

-- >> TERRY PACHECO: But it s ays the same thing. >> FRANK MALDARI: It says the same thing we do the same thing with the watch the gap signs they are all over the place. Typically, the people who don't have disabilities the ones not paying attention to what they are doing, unfortunate ly. And that's why we have so many signs trying to remind those people, hey, you better watch the gap. Somebody who

-- who can't see that well, or has other mobility impairments they are more in tune to paying attention to watching where they are steppin g. The question becomes is, we try to spread the information as broadly as we can to make sure that the people who we are targeting are getting the message. The question is: Does every
-- do every single one of those signs need the requirements if they do reduce the number of signs in the car. Or if we can have flexibility in the language to allow one or two signs to meet the requirement, such that the information isprovided, but additional information is provided so you can help

people who aren't payi ng attention. >> TERRY PACHECO: I think it's something to look at when we look into the

-- >> Bob Reuter. You have the emergency signs emergency information F visual and tactile. But emergency operational signs only visual. In other words, I know where the emergency exit is I don't know how to open the door? Of course a Catch

- 22 because this big yellow one here you can't look out the window when you are done. >> This is Dave Hughson on the same note I was wondering if there is any issues with covering u p that much window space for first responders. >> FRANK MALDARI: You went through what we talked about. But the idea that the whole set up one of the ideas was to look at some of the recommendations and say look does it really cause a problem or not. Because putting tactile signs on the car, you know, at first glance shouldn't be a problem. And generally it's not. I mean if all you have to do is add Braille it's typically not a big deal. Some of the signs that we have on the cars now don't meet the req uirements of the 5/8 raised lettering. But do have Braille on the signs and were able to put them in the confined spaces as you can see. So, you know, it's a question of if you

-- I don't know if we want to take the timenow we can go through it in some cases putting Braille on the

sign or slightly increasing the size is not a big deal. But in other cases it is. And as I have said before the flexibility in the regulations should allow you to do what is best not just what is regulated. And if we don't h ave that flexibility there, then you are going to have strain looking signs on the cars and it's going to be a lot less of the signs to warn people on

-- of unsafe watching the gap and other things if every single one of them have to be the same. You coul d look at the end and see do not evacuate passing between car sign. Currently it's on the door, on this particular car, we tried to make a sign that we thought was ADA compliant, and it's kind of big. But there is a little bit sprays adjacent to the door that you could probably fit something in there. Now, that's the B end. If you look at the F end, which is on the other end of the room, you will find that there is no wall directly adjacent to the door. To put the sign. So, you are only

-- the only ne xt place that you have to put it is actually on the window which negates the ability to look through the cars. So, it's an example that you know, how far do you want to go and how intent are the regulations in providing some flexibility to allow you to do what you can where you can practically. I know when we spoke about this in the meetings we talked about practical. And that was the an example of when it's practical you will do it when it's not practical you are goingto try to do something else. So, this is where I am cautioning

you. I mean we can put the passing between the cars that's adjacent to the window is not in raised lettering, but it does have Braille. I mean, is that better than not having that sign there because we don't have any real es tate to put it. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thanks Frank >> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Blair Slaughter two quick comments one is how is the Access Board once they take the recommendations how do they work with existing regulations and recommended practices from FRA and APTA i n squaring all of what we recommend so it all meshes nicely? And that's one question. The second is: As a commented we are talking about technology before it would be nice if we can put into ultimately into the language something that takes into account that in time a lot of what we are thinking of has to be you know big placarded things may be can be replaced with higher technology things that we can't necessarily conceive right now. It's nice if there is that think of it almost as an equivalent facili tation of a sign that may make things down the path a lot

-- a lot better and make sure that we communicate everything that we need to and do it well. The third question I had was on item I, the stop identification signs, and how they would relate to long distance trains where the train is on a set path a set schedule there is no immediacy to the fact that they want to stop in North Dakota infive hours and the train is going to end up in Portland at the end

of the week do we

-- (LAUGHTER) >> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Do we need to have a sign that's reminding of us

-- reminding us of that constantly on long distance trains that would be my only question. >> TERRY PACHECO: Again, I think that's one of the issues that we need to distinguish between which type of rail vehicle we are talking about. Because we absolutely do need that, I believe, on for instance light rail and subways and even commuter trains, you are right we probably don't need it on the crescent city. >> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Say the corridor or some of our smaller corridors where it's almost a commuter type operation it's a fast changing, short distance between stations, I would say yeah for sure. Some of the other longer haul trains it's almost you know extra thing to break. >> David Nelson: This is David Nelson. If I would make a comment I wanted to add to what Blair and something else

-- others had mentioned earlier. We need some type of language where we have flexibility of the new technology that might possibly be coming. That way we are not you know trapped with what we have or what technology that we would have, you know, it's just like ADA law talks about TRStelecommunications systems

-- or I'm sorry Telecommunication

Relay Systems. We had TTYs back in the day. And so that was required a TTY was required to be set up and it's literally one line in the language that says: Any future technology should then also be considered feasible. So, a lot of people have shifted to using the video relay service a videophone. And the federal communication commission took advantage of that one line in the regulation so that way any other type of relay service was able to be added on to that, so captioning phones, speech to text phones that type of thing. That's just a few of them. And now a lot of us are stuck with the language that was set 24 years ago and there is no flexibility to that so I think that's important to add in there. >> TERRY PACHECO: Thank you David. I think that

-- we
-- that helps tremendously with the issue that we brought up earli er. That is a very good solution to it, thank you very much. Anything else? Quickly. What I am trying to do is get through the rest of the summary I want to give 10 minutes to look at the signs. >> FRANK MALDARI: I had a quick comment this is Frank agai n of the equivalent facilitation. There is more than one means to communicate. You have smartphones now, you could also have hand outs I guess the point I am getting to one of theproblems when you have tactile signs on the trains you don't

know where th ey are you don't know where you have to look to find them. And you really don't want people moving their hands all along the side walls of the car looking for a sign because they don't know if it exists and where it exists. It almost seems like maybe it would be better if there was a booklet or a pamphlet for a car that could be handed out at the station with all of the information in it. You know to provide the equivalent information but in a means that the person knows where to get it and you have flex ibility and you are not confined to space next to a door of where to put the decal you can write it up in a book put it in Braille large type face and tell people where it is have it available at the station somewhere. You have to get through a station to get on the train. That's a possible alternate. The problem is we don't govern stations here the regulation is flexible it can allow for an alternative means of communication. >> TERRY PACHECO: The other issue with that you are right, that's beyond our p urview but just for your own information, I don't think that there is anyone that I can

-- I can't think of a situation where we have not as visually impaired and blind people have not run into places that have done exactly what you are talking about, but they did it three years ago and that was two iterations back. The menu the prices have changed, we nolonger carry no longer serve that kind of roast. Whatever it is.

It's keeping those things updated. It's also

-- I would not want to guess how many ti mes I have done dozens and dozens of Braille and large print menus for a restaurant because we were having a conference at some hotel. The first thing they do the minute we check out is throw them all in the trash. Trying to have documentation

-- documen ts kept places is a very, very tall order. It doesn't sound like it should be but keeping them up to date and keeping you have such a huge turn over of staff them knowing that that's the Braille

-- that Braille menu is or that that document

-- I have had it happen over at Smithsonian. The one that they

-- the one that they gave my husband was absolutely not the current set of displays over there. You

can
-- that's it's a great idea but it's really hard to enforce that and keep it up to date >> This is Jani ce Schacter Lintz. I think that eliminating any human error is critical. And any time that you put people with disabilities dependent on another person you infantilize them two the information is never current, three there is definitely going to be an argument because there is definitely going to be the person who tells you it doesn't exist. I mean, in a very different environment it was the Morgan library where I implemented the access I knew it existed the devices were there where they were the person still arguing with me it doesn'texist. So, any way that you could eliminate and if maybe we can

come up with a way of putting the Braille that people know where to look so that they are not feeling all the ways is better than putting it on that because I agree Terry, it

-- you should try each of these suggestions and going through it yourself, by the end of a two

-week period you would kill yourself you would say I am done thank God I don't have a disability and I could not handle all of these people who a re just so absolutely irritated. It's all of these things that are feel good suggestions but they all don't work. I would love Frank for you to go around I will go with you we will go and spend a day understanding what access for people with disabilities is like relying on other people. You will kill yourself. >> Ed Hoff, New Jersey Transit. The reality is there are signs that are so wordy it's impossible to put a sign on the wall in raised letter Braille. We have to come up with a solution to not only put it in some fashion that's visual but also audible. I don't mean that it's standardized audible but some way of communicating it audibly. >> TERRY PACHECO: I am wondering if it's possible.
>> If we are going to put a sign informing anybody of anything that means we need to inform everybody of that. And so, there are many people who can't read Braille or raised letter we need to tell them the same information that people areseeing on the walls. If we don't think it's that important or if we

can shorten it and put it on a sign go ahead if it's important enough to put it visually on a wall it's also important to get that to communicate that to people who can't see it or read it. >> TERRY PACHECO: Yes. Because and that

-- or read it that's equally important. It goes to a much larger commune tee than just the disability community how many people even read or speak read or understand English in this country today that's just another issue. What I am wondering is a question that I have, is the emergency l ighting system on, for instance, a train

-- let's say Amtrak train that loses power has emergency lighting system. Would it be conceivable that within the next 10 years that

-- a monitor type some kind of a VMS could be attached to that same emergency sys tem so that you would be getting emergency information via VMS that would also be audible. That you wouldn't have an issue of losing the power because you

-- it would be connected to the emergency lighting. I am wondering if something like that wouldn't be a solution. >> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Terry this is Blair from Amtrak. I think that to try to anticipate what is coming is tough, but I know that we are

-- the short answer is yes. You know, how that can be done, I don't know. There is a lot of things out t here now, we think about the electrical system onthe existing cars in new vehicles there are already changes that

were put into place by APTA and ultimately FRA around emergency lighting, and how it behaves. And if you cut the car in half, the halves sti ll have emergency lighting because of the way the new light systems are set up. They are in the dependent on a big battery under the car anymore they are independently powered. There are a lot of things that are out there that could fold over eventually into communications. I don't want to even pretend to think of all of the different ways that that might happen. But we did try something oh, gosh 10 years ago based on the

-- like the greeting card that you get that you can record except it was extended version and it was if you saw it, it was a plain white Braille card and when you opened it up it spoke to you. It told you in a fairly quiet voice so it wasn't disturbing just a talking voice the features of the vehicle. Where you could find things and what to expect where things might be at what level. We never really did anything with it because the big concern was where will it be. And who is going to make sure that it's there. But you can

-- I don't like to give the FRA too many ideas for those of them on the phone. But you can make items at least for FRA governed things that are part of the daily inspection for the vehicle. And if they don't

-- if they are not there, the train doesn't go. And when you put it in those terms, you will be surprised at how oftenthings are where they are supposed to be. Now, that even

includes daily inspections for us include emergency signs, lots of

-- lots of those kinds of things that you may have a sign missing on the door where there is two required. That won't keep the train from going necessarily that sign has to be replaced in so many days. So, there is a lot of that kind of thing out there that could give us the means to make sure that stuff is on the train. >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. Thank you. Can we

-- > > Terry, this is Cliff. I want to say I think we need to keep in mind when talking

-- when speaking about Braille that obviously it's only about 10 to 15% tops of people who read line Braille I am not trying to discourage Braille but I think we need to br ing broader when we think in terms of raised lettering, there are people who don't read Braille I want to caution us on the not to think in Braille. As mentioned auditory, there are a lot of systems out there you see them in museums and various places whe re there is a plaque and button next to it you push it will tell you exactly what the plaque says we need to think in grander terms that's all. >> TERRY PACHECO: My feeling as well, I personally am no good at reading raised lettering. Especially if it's o nly just a half inch high. Especially if I am in a hurry in emergency I am going to sit there R, I

--(LAUGHTER)

>> TERRY PACHECO: That's not going to happen. (LAUGHTER)
>> TERRY PACHECO: But I think you make a very good. I think our real issue is that's why I asked the question that Blair answered the short answer being yes, is we still need to make especially the emergency information available in an emergency. Which can very often mean without electricity. And that's where

-- that's our biggest concern we don't want to leave everyone in the dark literally. >> MARSHA MAZZ: Terry? >> TERRY PACHECO: Yes. Chris? >> CHRISTOPHER HART: No, I am going to defer to Marsha. >> MA RSHA MAZZ: I just wanted to mention that there was a study done some time ago I was checking my records I don't have it, and I can contact (inaudible) and ask her for it. She did study people trying to use directions for evacuation she used both audible, I think signs, as well as raised letter signs and perhaps Braille. I am not sure. I think maybe she couldn't get a sufficient number of Braille readers for the study. It was a small study. And I

-- if I am characterizing the results correctly, the audi ble signs the audible directions were won hands down in terms of people getting the information and proceeding to exits. But I will contact her and ask her for that.>> TERRY PACHECO: I would appreciate that.

>> MARSHA MAZZ: The information and see if we can't provide it to you. >> TERRY PACHECO: I know some of her

-- some of her studies can be very helpful. >> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: Terry this is Blair. I will say one more quick thing Bob Reuter held up a safety cards back there from Amtrak Marc they copied us

. (LAUGHTER) >> BLAIR SLAUGHTER: The

-- we used to have a big sign on the bulk head of every car at each end of the car a huge sign it told all about the emergency exit things and how to take the windows out and everything. The problem was that the fi rst the first rows of seats could see it because of where it was. And it didn't matter how big it was you just simply as you moved back in the car you didn't see it. The concern is we weren't getting the information to everyone. So, we struck a happy me dium with the FRA that said if you put the seat back cards like the airlines and make sure they are there and it's a part of inspection now, then you can take that big sign down and we know that everybody has access to the information. So, if we think abo ut conveying information in those kinds of terms from a systematic approach regardless what the delivery method is electronic paper or sign on a wall, if the goal is reached at theend of the day I think we have done our job. I would just

encourage everyo ne to keep an open mind about how it's achieved in the long run. Even though as Chris said if you shake the card the cards will fall out it's not a part of the card there has to be a way to manage that aspect. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry, for folks to be aware, it's 11:30. So

-- >> TERRY PACHECO: I know. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: It's time check for all of you guys. >> TERRY PACHECO: We have, I think we finished through that part we are down to the last bulleted area I think. >> JIM PECHT: Jim again. Last few things additional notes VMS must include audible versions. Bullet 2, stop announcements and other audible announcements should be pre
- recorded high quality messages 3, human announcements should be kept to a minute number this is especially important for station stop announcements. And bullet 4, service animal relief area information, I emphasize information, should be made available on the wall nearest the ISA where

-- nearest where the ISA is placed. >> TERRY PACHECO: As

-- I will tell you a quick funny story about that as Jim pointed out to me originally, he said what if the ISA is on the floor do we really want people down on the floor thinking that this is the dog relief area.(LAUGHTER) So that's

why it's reworded to the way it is. (LAUGHTER) >> TERRY PACHECO: So, all of you on Amtrak can let the cleaners of the trains know that we are thinking fondly about them. Okay. And then in addition to those bullets now we will add a couple of the thi ngs that we now put on the October agenda will get added to the bullets. What I would like to see us do now is take about 10 minutes and literally go around and look at these signs, look at our walls let's do a quick wall tour. Start with the front end of the train is the back of the room. Front end of the train was the back of the room I want today be sure. Let's go around a do a quick tour and so that we all get an idea of just what people are saying is this is too big is sign not a good location. An d see what

-- we may come up with suggestions from that. Let's just take 10 minutes I have it at 11:30 now be back in our seats at 20 minutes of thank you. >> Give us a quick (inaudible) >> Excuse me this is the operator. What time are you returning back from break? >> This is not break we are still in session.
>> Okay let me restore you thank you.
>> No problem. We are good. Just so everybody knows I do have Jonathan Michel on the line and I have a Bill, code 213,everyone on the call, your lines are o pen.

>> FRANK MALDARI: If you want to give me a quick walk around. At the back of the room. (Discussion off record.) >> FRANK MALDARI: On both sides they are above the door on the adjacent wall. On the adjacent wall I mean we could cover the whole wall with a decal with emergency instructions you can't cover the whole door that's why the question is, do you really need to put every single sign meeting the requirements. Go ahead. >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. So where do you have this all of this verbiage now? >> Way, way up here. >> FRANK MALDARI: It's on the top of the door there is one on the top of the door one adjacent to the door. >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay.
>> Melissa: And then there is one there. >> TERRY PACHECO: Why are these there and (indicating). What I am getting at is why is this as big as this as big as it is, when that's

-- this is the window. This is a window, okay. So, this but this is it's up too high anyway doesn't it make sense to put this here? If that door is open. >> You all have to u se the mic because the CART is still running.>> TERRY PACHECO: I'm sorry. I am just and that

side

-- that's >> Janice: Frank on this emergency intercom you know one thing we never discussed is adding induction shun loop to that we have that in elevators right now for the emergency intercom it works perfectly you see it in elevators in England. So could we add that to our list? >> TERRY PACHECO: Add that on to our

-- remind me when we get back down there I don't have the notebook with me. That's a very good point.
>> I will send you a photo. >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. >> FRANK MALDARI: We can discuss it with the group. >> It's doable. >> FRANK MALDARI: I don't doubt it is >> Hi Marilyn I want to keep in mind we are talking about new cars not about you are c hanging existing cars. So, I just think that we should factor that into this discussion. >> FRANK MALDARI: No just the point is new car is going to look similar like I said before, we put

-- just listen for a second. We put this as many signs as we do re ally to capture the attention of people who aren't paying attention rather than to capture just a few people's attention. So what I am saying is, yes, you could put a large sign somewhere but do you want tolimit the amount of signs by requiring everyone to be accessible

that's just a question. I am pointing out to you here in this particular in

-- instance we have the sign above the door to get people's attention we also have it on the adjacent vestibule to get people's attention. >> TERRY PACHECO: This d oor is aligned into this (indicating). >> FRANK MALDARI: This is the door pocket. >> TERRY PACHECO: Oh, okay. That's what it was. >> This is Cliff from the National Council I want to say I am been hearing this stuff from Frank saying all of this informati on yet at the same time I have heard him say before he began the people not paying attention to that that negates all of this information. It seems to me sometimes you are going to have overload of information therefore having people specifically not pay attention because you have too much of it. Perhaps if you had less information that would force them to pay for attention then we address accessibility. I would say perhaps we do need to think about cutting back on all of this information and make

sure whatever information we do have is accessible to everyone. Okay. >> FRANK MALDARI: Next sign here is picture of the entrance to the bathroom. The side door is on the left it's a view book looking from the vestibule directly at the bathroom.And down the aisle of the car. As can you see the handle is at

the corner because you will see from other views it's the necessary location in order to allow a wheelchair person to get into the bathroom in this particular case. But you know, as shown on the sign, the restroom sign becoming #

- 00% compatible is not a big deal there is a lot of real estate there in that particular case that's not a big change to require that to be accessible some of these other signs, get a little problematic we are going to wind up probably cutting down on the number of signs if each sign has to be bigger. That's an advertisement static >> TERRY PACHECO: But it's going to be really easy to put it over that one. >> FRANK MALDARI: It's advertising space. The next sign here is looking at a typical emergency window and passenger compartment. There is instruction removal sign that's currently shown in black and white. And then we super sized it immediate the ADA requirements. This is one of the signs

-- there haven't been a lot of them, t hat are problematic when you start to increase the size. As you can see, this particular sign would take up virtually the whole window negating the window aspect of the emergency window. One of the things that you see is the luggage rack is directly above the emergency exit sign increasing the size of the emergency exitsign slightly Mo not a big deal trying to put the instructions in

that area is impossible because it would be blocked by the luggage rack. >> TERRY PACHECO: That could be reformatted you could make it somewhat smaller. >> FRANK MALDARI: Well, I

-- I am not expert in reformatting. It probably

-- hopefully could be reduced to some amount and maybe allowing some flexibility in the way it's formatted to help it fit in the space available. That's what I am talking about with the regulations maybe there are ways to be lenient more lenient in how the decal is set up to provide it to be in the space provided. All right. Walking down this is another view of the talking area for wheelchairs. This is a side door view. Again, you can seat emergency instruction signs above sign on the door window. It's both the original and the one with Braille and raised lettering even though it's slightly bigger it's not a tremendous burden. And in this particular case I don't think it's a big deal. Also on this one picture is the priority seating sign. If I understand the regulations correctly, the text has to be below the caricatures or the figures. So, this sign winds up being a requirement whereas this sign on the top would work a little better and fit in the space provided if there was the flexibility of reform atting it. This the existing sign just says priority seating. We have heard a lot of complaints aboutpeople not getting up so we have added some additional

wording to our sign to try to make it clear that you have to get out of the seat. >> TERRY PACHEC O: But this is harder for someone is low vision to see because the ISA is smaller here than it is here. I'm sorry. The difference is that this is mauler for someone with low vision to see than this. This stands out much more than this does. This of cou rse stands out best of all (indicating). That's the one issue that I see about that. This here, I think this here to me this is pretty much the ideal. It would be something on this idea (indicating). Perhaps being able to narrow it margins a little.
>> FRANK MALDARI: That doesn't fit really, it's a curvature. >> TERRY PACHECO: It doesn't fit well if you could narrow the margins a bit or perhaps change font >> FRANK MALDARI: We could lay it out sideways. >> TERRY PACHECO: This here I can talk to and read this is over my head that's the difference. >> FRANK MALDARI: This would have to be shrunk down

even more. >> TERRY PACHECO: Right. The difference is if I needed to I could walk up and read it like this. I can't do that with that. That's the problem is over signage in general. >> FRANK MALDARI: But the seat is here it's not here that'sthe problem. The priority seat is here it's

--

>> TERRY PACHECO: Right. But I can get in even if I am on the side I can get to this there is still a possibility of gett ing

-- anything that's at eye level, roughly is always

more
-- you have more people can use it then. >> Or a short person with a visual problem. >> FRANK MALDARI: This is the space you have use this space or this space here it's long this it's horizontal. >> TERRY PACHECO: Long is better that's our viewpoint on it. >> FRANK MALDARI: Okay. This is the last sign this is the B end of the car looking out of the B end or the back of the train. This is the end door this is passenger seats this is the VMS sign i t's off in this particular case. These are a couple of the same decals we had on the other side. We did blow them up fortunately there is space on the wall looks like we could lay it out without it being a big problem. >> TERRY PACHECO: That's fine there

. >> FRANK MALDARI: The assaulting one I didn't get a chance to increase it would take up all of this space if it had to be reformatted. >> TERRY PACHECO: All right. Well, thank you very much Frank. Thank you both. This is the only VMS sign on the vehic le? Did I miss one?>> FRANK MALDARI: No there are a number of VMS signs on

the vehicle we try to make it so every area had a VMS signs we didn't get them in the pictures there were too pictures there are at least four on the car. >> Don Mebius LTK the qu estion I had in conversations talking about sizes, you know we have iPads now is there something that could be utilized a larger screen where the signs rotate so that now you have this sign up it's up for a little while and then the next one. >> FRANK MALDARI: It has to be in various letters. >> It doesn't address that you are right. >> FRANK MALDARI: It sounds like a good idea.
>> It only addresses that one part. >> TERRY PACHECO: You lost me on the iPad. >> Don: That type of approach screen. >> TERRY PAC HECO: A screen right I understand. >> FRANK MALDARI: The problem is making a screen out of the visual impact as well. >> TERRY PACHECO: I thought you were talking about via the Internet. Yeah. VMS we haven't touched

-- also, we haven't touched on color c ontrast. The fact that

-- >> FRANK MALDARI: This is the black

-- I don't know if you can see clearly the black red background is the worst one black background with red lettering.>> That's the worst color combination for anything the

green or blue or yellow are all generally considered better and there are a whole lot

-- that's one area where there is a lot of evidentiary information available to us. Thank you all very much. (Discussion off record.)

>> TERRY PACHECO: If everyone is finished viewing could we get back to your seats so we can finish off here, please? Rose Marie: Seats everyone. Everyone return to your seats. (Discussion off record.)

>> TERRY PACHECO: Could we have everyone back now please? We want to start again. Thank you. >> Ter ry can I raise an issue sitting down it's not related to this but very, very important that we think about it. >> TERRY PACHECO: Certainly. >> That is the issue of chemical sensitivity in materials being used to make any of these future cars. We need to find a way to think about chemical sensitivity. And there are many measures now that exist today to do this. So, I don't hear that there is no way to do that. But I believe strongly that that is an issue that we need to discuss somewhere and somehow.
>> TERRY PACHECO: And anyone know what committeeshould deal with that?

>> I don't know. >> TERRY PACHECO: I am thinking maybe special what is it seating and special spaces? I do think it's a

-- it's a very valid point. I just I am not sure that we are the ones to deal with it. But that definitely should come up in one of the committee meetings tomorrow. >> FRANK MALDARI: I am a little confused what the question is typically the interiors are designed they are nontoxic so to speak. Is it a question about t he cleaning materials or is it a question about the actual materials itself. >> This is Cliff. You don't know what you just said about whatever it is you said you don't know that at all. That have to be determined by people with chemical sensitivity anyt hing that goes into whether it's the materials the making of the vehicle, cleaning material, all of that we need to seriously start thinking about people with chemical sensitivity. That's what I am saying and the question is not difficult. >> TERRY PACHEC O: All right. I am going to ask the most scariest question of all, I think at least it is to me. I am going to return the tables just slightly. We have been through this now we know that these bulleted points and the other issues that have

-- that we have brought up this morning are going on the October 2nd agenda. I would like to give the Access Board staffit the opportunity to tell us what else they want from this

committee besides the recommendations

-- now that they have had a chance to see what is sues are important to this committee, and you know, where we are headed in recommendations, what else they would like to see from this committee. I goes we are doing a good job is that it? (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: Clearly what we are looking for is yo ur list of recommendations. I think that's what's important to you guys is what we are looking for. I need to go back one minute and talk a little bit about announcements. And what we can and can't do with regards to announcements of any sort. As far as the guidelines and the standards are concerned. I don't think that we can require announcements. I don't think that we can require when announcements are broadcast. And for the most part I don't think that we can require specific wording. We can make recommendations on certain things I don't think we can do that. What we can do is say that when announcements are made, they have to be accessible. And that is what you guys need to talk about as to how to do that. So, someone said that they were on a t rain this morning no announcement was given they should have made announcement. Well the standard is not going to tell you that. The standard will say no announcement was made no one wasgiven any information therefore no one was discriminated

against no one got the information. Should the information have been given yeah probably but that is not going to be something that we are going to be dealing with DOT may have something to say about it in the reg we aren't going to look at that with regard to the standard Marilyn? >> MARILYN GOLDEN: Marilyn Golden from DREDF am I on? Now it is AH. Maybe this was discussed, this committee could compile a list of matters that we hope DOT will consider when issuing its reg that would be parted of our report. And th at would go fully to

-- would go eventually to DOT hopefully some of us could send it or something. Why not? And this issue

-- somebody make a list. Maybe I will make a list. But what was the issue? Anyway, this issue should go on it. >> JIM PECHT: I think we would welcome those things as far as making recommendations I would hope that you could do it off line as much as possible. Because quite frankly this committee is a little bit behind with regards to the bulk of what we need to do as far as getti ng done. We haven't talked a lot about technical requirements we have been in scoping land for most of the document most of the discussion, and then there are some big issues that we need to sort of talk about whether communication in general. You are starting to get there with regards to visual and audible and when you do and what you doand how you do it. I guess that's what we are looking for as far

as direction from you guys as to how you want to proceed with that. >> TERRY PACHECO: I think we have b een doing an awful lot of that actually. Anybody else from the staff have anything that they want to add? >> MARSHA MAZZ: (inaudible) >> TERRY PACHECO: Okay. All right. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Terry, just one general observation on what we saw on the walls. I think it's >> TERRY PACHECO: I don't think you are on mic. >> CHRISTOPHER HART: Okay. One general observation about what was put on the walls. Just coming from a design background. Visual examples are extraordinarily helpful. The challenge is to also be mindful that when you apply to existing objects, buildings, posts, sidewalks, you may see obstacles that are not necessarily present in future design. And what I mean by that is, s ome objects that may be located in a site or in a car in this instance, today, may not necessarily need to be exactly where they are in the future

-- in a future design. And so, as folks think about the future, we should be mindful that there is to a degree, not completely, but to a degree there is a bit of an open plate or a blank canvas so to speak. Not fully blank but you have more flexibility in newdesigns than you do necessarily in existing. And I say that as

someone that's struggled to help a grou p of plaintiffs out, in a transit agency come to some reasonable agreement about what they should do with their existing cars as they rebuild them. There is the perfect and then there is reality for existing vehicles. So, I just ask folks to bear that in mind. >> Terry this is Melissa Anderson. >> TERRY PACHECO: Yes.
>> at some point the subcommittee will want to go back and look at the issues list developed by the full committee to make sure you are add

-- you are addressing the concerns at the beginning of the committee development. >> TERRY PACHECO: Yeah, I think you make a good point. Periodically we have gone over it truthfully I don't think I have looked at it in the last two months. I am not sure about anyone else we should put it on the agenda fo r the October 2nd meeting. Let me add that on. Okay. Anyone have anything else that they want to bring up for this committee this morning? Hearing none, we have what a half hour before the RVAAC committee as a whole meets? I would suggest that we run a nd grab lunch and bring it back here. Anyone have any objections to that? Hearing none

-- I'm sorry? Paul is shaking his head yes. (LAUGHTER)>> TERRY PACHECO: Paul's

-- I have it figured out Paul must

have made lunch for all of us he is ready to se rve it.
>> I want to say one thing about Terry and

-- my mom used to tell me, I can't hear your head rattle. So

-- (LAUGHTER) >> JIM PECHT: Speak up and say things don't just wave and shake your head. >> TERRY PACHECO: Paul, does Paul want to say som ething? >> BILLY ALTOM: Just quickly what I want to remind folks this is Billy, we will take a break now. We are going to come back at 12:30. So, if you request grab lunch bring it back so we can continue to work because we still got a lot to get through this afternoon and tomorrow. So we have two

-- a day and a half still left so let's take a quick break grab a bite to eat and we will start again at 12:30, so operator thank you very much.