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1

 MEETING

 OF

 THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group

 Wednesday March 26, 2014

 9:00 a.m.

 Department of Energy

 1000 Independence Avenue SW

 Forrestal Building

 Washington, DC 20585
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

Doug Brookman

2 Douglas Potts

Albert Huber

3 Mark Handzel

Greg Case

4 Charles Cappellino

Greg Towsley

5 Steve Rosenstock

Paul Lin

6 Meg Waltner

Alison Williams

7 Lucas Adin

Tom Eckman

8 Robert Barbour

Joanna Mauer

9 Louis Starr

Gary Fernstrom

10 Robert Boteler

Arnie Sdano

11 Brent McManis

Laura Petrillo-Groh

12 Dan Weintraub

Sarah Widder

13 Jeremiah Freeman

Jack Graul

14 Chuck Powers

15 Betsy Kohl

16

17

18

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's get started.

3 Good morning everyone. I am so glad to

4 see you here on a cold wintry morning in

5 Washington, D.C.

6 this is --

7 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Same as last time.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon?

9 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I say it snowed

10 last time.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: It snowed last time. It

12 snowed this time. Not a lot this time

13 fortunately. This is the Commercial and Industrial

14 Pumps Negotiated Rule Making Working Group. This

15 is the fourth meeting today, March 26, 2014, here

16 in Washington, D.C.

17 My name is Doug Brookman, Public

18 Solutions in Baltimore.

19 Glad to see you all here.

20 Let's start by doing introductions. I

21 noted before we're in GH todaykind of a not an

22 optimal configuration but it worked last time. I
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1 am sure we can make it work today. But everybody

2 has got to use their outdoor voices today to make

3 sure that they broadcast effectively over the web.

4 And also if we talk over each other the transcript

5 will be garbled. So we need to be a little

6 disciplined about that as we go along. We will

7 start with introductions.

8 MR. POTTS: Good morning, Doug Potts

9 from American Water.

10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump.

11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

12 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic

13 Institute.

14 MR. CAPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT

15 Corporation.

16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock,

18 Edison Electric Institute.

19 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal Beloit.

20 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, LBL.

22 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

2 & Conservation Council.

3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.

4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance

5 Standards Awareness Project.

6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,

8 California Investor Owned Utilities.

9 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec

10 Corporation.

11 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair.

12 MR. McMANIS: Brent McManis, Baldor

13 Electric.

14 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh,

15 AHRI.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.

18 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific

19 Northwest National Lab.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Everyone get

21 a chance. Jack, Jeremiah, introduce yourselves.

22 MR. FREEMAN: Jeremiah Freeman, New West
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1 Technologies.

2 MR. GRAUL: Jack Graul, Energetics.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.

4 Glad to see you all here. I am pleased

5 that we haven't had apparently -- just one member

6 absent I think.

7 MR. CASE: So we know that Chuck Powers

8 from Flowserve is coming.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. CASE: Okay. He had an original

11 plan to bring a -- send a substitute but he

12 notified us that he is going to be here.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. We don't know when

14 he will arrive.

15 MR. CASE: No just -- we were expecting

16 him some time--

17 MR. BROOKMAN: So my comment is so

18 apparently we are not going to encounter as many

19 difficulties with travel then as we did last time.

20 That is all very good.

21 All of you received a packet of

22 information. And it is there at your seats. The
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1 first page is our agenda elements. And I was

2 going to suggest a slight revision. The

3 Department sent out a presentation, an overview of

4 the rule making process in a power point slide

5 packet yesterday or the day before. And I thought

6 maybe we would start off this morning with that as

7 an overview. It will probably take 45 minutes or

8 so to go through it plus Q&A. I thought it would

9 be useful.

10 MR. LIN: You have got to speak up Doug.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Really?

12 MR. LIN: Yes.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I can speak up. I

14 thought it would be useful to have that

15 presentation material set.

16 Meg are you having a hard time hearing?

17 MS. WALTNER: No, I'm fine.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Last time we had

19 several questions for those that are new to the

20 standard setting process about how employment

21 impacts are measured and a whole bunch of stuff

22 like that.
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1 So I think if we had that presentation

2 that will allay -- provide some information and

3 allay some fears, both of those things.

4 So I thought we would start off with

5 that. And then going from there to the items you

6 see listed on Page 2 of this packet. Clearly

7 defined scope for this negotiation; pump types;

8 review the aggregate of results of new surveys as

9 they might be available and review updated

10 scenarios for circulator energy use savings and

11 payback.

12 I had a brief conversation with Gary

13 Fernstrom this morning. He said that he had met

14 with Alison and Alison had the -- that caucus's

15 new information to the extent it exists and she is

16 going to present on that.

17 Our expectation -- my expectation is

18 today we are going to proceed to a vote on

19 circulators. Everything we are going to do today -

20 - if we do nothing else in this two days maybe

21 just today is to establish scope. We really need

22 to get after that otherwise we are going to be way
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1 far behind.

2 Then moving on from that first bullet

3 point under scope the second is clearly define

4 scope for negotiation, clean water definition for

5 pumps in scope. Exclusions we still haven't

6 decided what to do with sanitary pumps, then

7 applicability of standards of pumps with non8 electric drivers.

9 And then in addition over the span of

10 the next two days metrics. We made great progress

11 on metrics last time I thought. I thought there

12 was a lot of understanding in the room, take a

13 vote on metrics today we hope.

14 And then test procedure. We have

15 someone from HI that is going to discuss 40.6.

16 MR. HUBER: Yes. Arnie Sdano.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie. Thank you. Thank

18 you for joining us Arnie.

19 So that is the plan here at the outset.

20 Questions and comments about the agenda?

21 Okay. So pardon me, do you want to set

22 this up. The presentation material that was sent
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1 in advance.

2 MR. ADIN: Sure. So as Doug pointed out

3 what we would like to do starting out is provide a

4 very general overview of standards setting

5 process, the analysis that we do for establishing

6 the justification for those standard. And I know

7 some of you in the room you are very familiar with

8 this, others perhaps not as much. This was really

9 mainly to address this.

10 Doug also pointed out some of the

11 questions we've been getting and to make sure it

12 is clear exactly what we are going to be doing

13 once we've established our scope and we know which

14 pumps we are looking at we start to use the data

15 you have been providing us to evaluate what our

16 standard levels are going to look like and whether

17 they are justified. I want to make sure you

18 understand how that process is actually going to

19 work with the analysis involved and hopefully

20 addressing more specific questions that you heard

21 about how we are going to consider things like

22 employment impacts, impacts on small business and
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1 things like that.

2 So I figure maybe we could devote maybe

3 about an hour to that if we need it. We will go

4 through like I said pretty generally but of course

5 we are going to have questions on specific things.

6 Please feel free to ask as we go along. We will

7 answer those for you.

8 So I will go ahead and start it off.

9 So as we pointed out previously there

10 are seven general criteria that are used that are

11 actually specified in the Statute to be used for

12 establishing the basis for a standard. And those

13 are the items that are on the left side there. And

14 they all focus on various economic and technical

15 bases and energy savings potential of the

16 standard.

17 And we've also pointed out on this slide

18 which particular analyses we do that address each

19 of those factors and the stage during the rule

20 making in which we would normally conduct that

21 analysis. Understand that for rule making like

22 this where we are doing a lot through negotiation
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1 and we are kind of collecting data as we go and

2 doing analysis as we go a lot of that so we don't

3 have discrete pre analysis and then refinement in

4 the notice of proposed rule-making phase. It

5 really will be kind of more compressed into one

6 phase of analysis. But we will still go through

7 all those things that are involved.

8 So that is again just the general

9 process that we normally go through for rule

10 making stages that we would do and as it points

11 out the test procedure is running parallel so we

12 have a proposal and a final rule during the course

13 of that standards rule making process. Usually it

14 takes about three years.

15 So this is our big flow diagram of all

16 the stuff that we do. This depicts what happens

17 normally during the preliminary analysis phase. So

18 I am not going to go through every item in there

19 because that might take an hour. But as you can

20 see there is a lot involved; a lot of data inputs;

21 a lot of outputs. But the general intent is to

22 establish a preliminary basis for some candidate
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1 standard levels that we might consider for the

2 products that we are looking at. So we can come

3 up with a bunch of iterations of standard savings

4 of 10%, 20%, 30% et cetera and look at what the

5 life cycle costs and payback periods look like for

6 each of those. And then start to get into some of

7 the higher level stuff; manufacturer impacts and

8 then a broader national impact analysis. So if

9 you pick a standard at that level assuming a

10 certain level of shipments and based on typical

11 use at the consumer level; what are your national

12 energy savings going to look like at that

13 standard? This is the broader process of where

14 those things happen.

15 So we start out with a market and

16 technology assessment. What does the market look

17 like? What kind of technologies are actually in

18 use? Screening analysis to determine what kinds

19 of technological improvements can be made to the

20 product. Which ones are feasible? Which ones are

21 probably not based on economic factors, technology

22 that is readily available if it is not a
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1 prototype, at least at the prototype phase we can

2 consider it. So and all that goes into an

3 engineering analysis where we look at

4 realistically what would it cost to implement

5 those things. What kind of efficiency will we

6 get? There is a cost for efficiency improvement.

7 So I don't know if you guys want to talk

8 in a little bit more detail about market type

9 assessment.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I don't know that

11 we need to --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Loudly, loudly.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. I think we just

14 pretty much went over it; you know the main part

15 is where we figure out what equipment classes we

16 are looking at; what is the baseline from which we

17 are going to consider these additional design

18 actions to improve efficiency; and then in

19 screening analysis of that there is four criteria

20 for determining whether or not a design option is

21 something that could be considered. And the

22 practicability to manufacture and things like that
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1 and so then what is left goes in the engineering

2 analysis and the basic cost efficiency curve of

3 what it costs to get to each different efficiency

4 level. So does anybody have questions on that

5 section of the analysis?

6 You guys all of you add something. So

7 no more questions.

8 Okay.

9 So the next step is once you have the

10 engineering analysis which involves the different

11 efficiency levels and the cost of them, we also

12 look at mark-ups to determine equipment price. So

13 we have mark-ups based on distribution channels

14 and mark-up segments that are specific to the pump

15 industry. And we apply them separately to the

16 baseline cost as well as the incremental cost of

17 this improved efficiency. And so that analysis

18 gives us the equipment price that we use when we

19 are looking at effects on the market.

20 Questions?

21 Okay. So the next analysis is the

22 energy use which primarily gets -- or sort of it
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1 is built into the life cycle cost analysis. We

2 are basically looking at the amount of energy the

3 pumps use under these different scenarios. And

4 this is not -- so how

5 -- basically how we are going to do it

6 this time is that we will be looking at the energy

7 use in different sectors: industrial, commercial,

8 and agricultural. We find different sources of

9 information to find out operating hours, you know

10 how large the pumps are in the application, how

11 they are used, that kind of thing to figure out

12 the energy use analysis under these different

13 scenarios. And that gets rolled into the life

14 cycle costs and payback period.

15 So it combines the engineering analysis

16 which is how much it costs to get to higher

17 efficiency and the energy analysis combined with

18 electricity price to find your total operating

19 costs. You combine those two things and it gives

20 you the life cycle cost results on a simple level.

21 So we look at -- all these things go

22 into it but in the end we are really looking at --
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1 sorry, we are looking at what percentage of the

2 population benefits from a standard, what

3 percentage is burdened, what percentage is not

4 impacted and on average you know the cost or

5 savings to those people.

6 So even if we are looking at a certain

7 equipment cost and different efficiency levels, if

8 there is a case where you know too many people are

9 burdened or there is negative LCC savings then

10 typically DOE might you know would cross them off

11 the list. So that is how -- you know you are

12 basically not already stuck doing something

13 because these analyses determine where DOE can go

14 with these.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick one for

16 everyone's clarification when you say no impact

17 for the LCC that means that the LCC is plus or

18 minus 2% of the baseline LCC; is that what that --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Steven

20 Rosenstock. We are going to start using our names

21 now, okay?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI,
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1 sorry about that.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Now Alison.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: When you say no impact

4 in terms of the Life Cycle Cost analysis doesn't

5 that mean plus or minus about 2% of --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Typically no impact means

7 that a consumer was already purchasing a higher

8 efficiency product and so when there is a standard

9 they are not impacted because they can make the

10 same product choice after the standard is in

11 place.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's -- Steve

13 Rosenstock from EEI, that is different from my

14 understanding of the LCC analysis.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison repeat what it is.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So I mean we don't

18 necessarily need to get into this level of detail

19 but when we are sort of looking at winners and

20 losers on the LCC there are a type of people that

21 may not be impacted. And typically those people,

22 like when we start the LCC we start with the base
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1 case efficiency distribution. So some consumers

2 are already purchasing high efficiency pumps. And

3 so in the case of a standard they still can

4 purchase that same pump they were going to

5 purchase before. So they are essentially not

6 impacted by the standard.

7 MR. ADIN: This is Lucas Adin. Just to

8 clarify I don't know if we are talking about the

9 same thing necessarily. It might be the

10 difference between what defines no impact for a

11 particular consumer or net impact across all

12 consumers; is that really one of the questions -

13 how do you define what's - Well how do you define

14 what --

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well your summary

16 tables -- Steven Rosenstock, EEI, in the summary

17 tables of Life Cycle Cost Analysis for hybron (ph)

18 efficiency levels it says you know lower life

19 cycle costs you know benefit -- people who

20 benefit, people who don't benefit your lower life

21 cycle cost versus higher life cycle costs versus

22 "no impact" cost, that is what I was referring to.
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1 And I thought --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: That is what I answered.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So Steve --

4 MR. ADIN: So there is a percentage of

5 people who have a benefit versus a percentage that

6 --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: One thing Steve you've

8 got great familiarity with these -- with the

9 standard setting process. And so you go into

10 considerable detail here. And I want to keep this

11 kind of at an overview level for those in the room

12 that don't have any familiarity with this process.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was -- Steven

14 Rosenstock, EEI. I was trying to get it at a high

15 level just give the general definition.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for keeping it

17 there. Okay.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean obviously we will

19 go into those details when we get to the LCC. I

20 want to make sure we have the correct explanation

21 for that.

22 So any other questions on the LCC?
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1 Okay. The next part is instead of

2 looking at individual consumers we looked at the

3 impact to the nation as a whole. This starts with

4 a shipment analysis.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: I have a question on

6 the previous slide. Charlie Cappellino. So just

7 a general question is if you had to say kind of

8 where we are today looking at the flow chart?

9 MS. WILLIAMS: We are in the market and

10 technology --

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: So we are still at the

12 first couple of blocks there?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so --

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: And that is how much

15 percent complete; are we like --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So like we are

17 working on some of these others. We are working

18 on all of these.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. But we can't

21 finalize them without scope and metric.

22 MR. BROCKMAN: Louis Starr?
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1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. Just to follow

2 on with that. This is typically these -- that

3 process that yellow ruler up there would be about

4 two year process. So we are condensing all that

5 and the idea is that we can work on some of those

6 things ahead of the time. And that's the

7 efficiency of the regulated negotiation is that

8 they are in theory working on some of those things

9 ahead of time. So we don't have to wait for you

10 to write a comment, then wait three months to

11 respond back here so we can respond. And so that

12 is the theory behind why it is a more efficient

13 way to do what we are doing.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: And you know we've really

15 been sort of working on those since the framework.

16 So it is not like we have to start all these from

17 scratch after you guys decide the scope and

18 metric. We are building the models and collecting

19 inputs for stuff. But it is just a matter of like

20 bringing everything together.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. Thank you.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: But yes to be perfectly
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1 clear we are at -- you know we have to finalize

2 the market and technologies first. And then once

3 we do that you know we will proceed to present

4 these individual analyses in order along in the

5 next couple of meetings.

6 Okay. So the shipment analysis

7 basically we try to do a shipment projection over

8 a 30 year analysis period. So we look at economic

9 indicators. We look at the current stock,

10 lifetimes. We usually do a distribution of

11 lifetime so we can analyze how many replacements

12 are needed to go into the current stock and that

13 basically generates - between replacement and

14 construction that generates that shipment

15 projection over the 30 year analysis period. And

16 so the shipment projection is combined with some

17 of the other things that we've done so far to

18 populate the national energy saving and net

19 present value. So the national energy savings is

20 basically how much energy would all those

21 shipments use in the base case and then how much

22 energy would they use in each of the different
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1 standards cases we are looking at. We just look

2 at the difference between those two to see how

3 much energy can be saved nationally by

4 implementing the standards.

5 And then we look at the net present

6 value of implementing those standards which is

7 basically the increased installed cost of higher

8 efficiency units versus operating costs of the

9 higher efficiency units multiplied by all the

10 shipments in the projection. And so basically if

11 the net present value is negative that is another

12 indication that that standard level would not be

13 considered eventually.

14 Any questions?

15 Alright. So one thing that's -- this

16 says preliminary manufacturing impact analysis; so

17 in this stage we are combining preliminary

18 analysis and NOPR. We will basically be doing full

19 manufacturing impact analysis which basically

20 looks at industry cash flow and net present value

21 using the government regulatory impacts model. And

22 essentially it is just looking at conversion costs
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1 and all sort of things that tell you what the

2 industry net present value is. And we look at the

3 change in the industry net present value using a

4 different standard that were are considering. You

5 know this is just an example of what the impacts

6 are at each level. And so that is another

7 criteria that can be used in determining what

8 standard to set.

9 And that pretty much -- those are the

10 main analyses. We do do a bunch of other analyses

11 that I don't think we need to go into in detail

12 here. We look at utility impacts, the emissions,

13 savings, monetize the emissions, you get you know

14 the social cost of carbon and all those things are

15 required to be done as part of this analysis.

16 Okay. Do you guys have any questions

17 about any of these analysis?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So one thing I would ask

19 for clarification on and Alison, Lucas, perhaps

20 Betsy this negotiated rule making process provides

21 an opportunity as Louis already said to condense

22 the collection of data, the analysis of data, the
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1 back and forth discussions surrounding

2 clarification of the meaning of all of that, and

3 DOE at the same time has an obligation to fulfill

4 its responsibilities by statute and other factors

5 to conduct complete analysis and do what they

6 would do in a standard rule making process.

7 So do you want to just add on to what

8 I've said?

9 MR. ADIN: I don't know that there is a

10 whole lot to add honestly.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Wow.

12 MR. ADIN: You've actually summarized

13 pretty well what we are attempting to accomplish

14 by using negotiation in place of the regular rule

15 making process. And understand as I think we've

16 discussed in previous meetings it doesn't mean

17 that we come up with a term sheet and we're done.

18 There still is a process after that. We have to

19 translate what has been put in the term sheet into

20 a proposed rule in the form that we would normally

21 produce it with all the analyses laid out and the

22 tables and the descriptions and all that and that
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1 does take some time and pass through a legal

2 process. So that is why we had talked about this

3 time period between the submittal of the term

4 sheet and publication of the rule by the end of

5 the year. And then of course we collect comments

6 for a period of time and it is usually 60 days,

7 something in that neighborhood. And then depending

8 on the comments then it would be turned into a

9 final rule sometime maybe the middle of next year.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas. Mark?

11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

12 So Lucas if the -- so suppose we reach an

13 agreement in this group. We make a recommendation

14 and then the analysis is done and it really says

15 right turn from what the group recommended.

16 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Is there a procedure for

18 re- discussion? Or I mean how do you proceed with

19 getting to the NOPR stage from that point?

20 MR. ADIN: Well so let me clarify what I

21 said previously. So the analysis that will be

22 used to get to the standards that we're ideally
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1 going to try to agree upon won't -- really won't

2 change. I mean the part of the agreement is as

3 laid out in the ground rules and you know

4 basically the tasking we are receiving from ASRAC

5 is to come up with a term sheet the DOE will

6 accept --

7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

8 MR. ADIN: -- and propose in a NOPR. So

9 the idea is that they should not change.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

11 MR. ADIN: The analyses have been done.

12 We are just translating that into NOPR language.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

14 MR. ADIN: What we actually have to put

15 in a regulatory notice and all the descriptions

16 and explanations that we have to lay out for the

17 public so they understand what it is.

18 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Okay.

19 MR. ADIN: It is not that it would change

20 it is just that we have to --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

22 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary with a
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1 comment for Mark. You know what this group can do

2 to affect the outcome is come to different

3 agreements on the inputs into the model. And I

4 think that is one of our principle tasks is to

5 come to agreement on what the inputs are as best

6 we can.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that was a very

9 brief presentation on a regulatory process that by

10 anyone's reckoning is very complicated and takes

11 several years to accomplish. So are there

12 additional questions at this point for Alison or

13 Lucas?

14 Yes, sir.

15 MR. BOTELER: Can I ask a question?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bob, please.

17 MR. BOTELER: You mentioned the social

18 cost of carbon and about a year ago DOE raised the

19 social cost and then backed off and took it back

20 down. What number are we going to use for this?

21 MR. ADIN: So just to clarify. This is

22 Lucas Adin. The social cost of carbon number that
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1 is used for analysis actually doesn't come from

2 DOE, it comes from OMB. So to the extent that

3 there is any difference it would be based on

4 guidance from them, not an internal decision.

5 MR. BOTELER: We would have to go back

6 to OMB to see which level?

7 MR. ADIN: Yes I mean it --

8 MR. BOTELER: If I recall they

9 significantly increased it and then they backed

10 off of it and I didn't hear anymore whether they

11 stayed with the lower number of --

12 MR. ADIN: At the moment I couldn't tell

13 you. I'd have to look at the most recent rule.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: There is an updated

15 interagency agreement that you could probably find

16 on the web that you should just be able to get the

17 number.

18 MS. BROOKMAN: So that was Alison. Thank

19 you Alison. Let's keep trying to use our names

20 here.

21 Steve Rosenstock.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock EEI.
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1 OMB made that change, it was a minor change. It

2 went -- let's say it started at 23 then went up to

3 38, now it is like 37 depending on which bandwidth

4 you are in basically. So --

5 MR. BOTELER: Okay.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And now all of these

7 looking -- they also put out another rulemaking in

8 terms of what to use in a procedure a lot of

9 feedback. So the number could easily -- could

10 change again. It depends on what OMB does with

11 the feedback they've received on their RFI.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Steve.

13 Final questions on this. I am going to

14 keep us moving along here.

15 Okay. We are going to move on.

16 The next item on the agenda reads

17 clearly define scope for this negotiation, pump

18 types, review aggregated results of new surveys if

19 available.

20 And we should probably start by thanking

21 HI, thanking Al and Mark and others that

22 contributed and engaged the industry at large to
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1 create this new data set.

2 How should we do this? Do you want to

3 describe this Al and say where we are?

4 MR. HUBER: Sure.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

6 MR. HUBER: We -- this is Al Huber at

7 Patterson. What we did is we went out to the HI

8 membership and tried to get as many companies as

9 we could to participate in a survey. For those

10 that participated I believe you probably, do you

11 have a copy so you can put it up on the screen.

12 There you go. We have -- we ended up with about

13 17 different companies who participated. We

14 actually had more than that. We had a couple

15 additional ones but they submitted 50 cycle

16 instead of 60 and we had to throw them out. We

17 don't know but I would be glad to walk through

18 this with you.

19 The double suction that you see the

20 number of units are 5,311 as reported by the group

21 and not load factored.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: And this is for one
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1 fiscal year?

2 MR. HUBER: That is one fiscal year,

3 yes. And that is not load factored because the

4 majority and I think the way NEMA -- NEMA-BIS in

5 their letter to the DOE stated a preponderance of

6 the companies that produce that product are among

7 these who have reported. The load factor has been

8 developed over quite some time using historical

9 data from the Hydraulic Institute and our market

10 or M10 reports and using at the time the

11 Department of Commerce data which is no longer

12 available. So those were used to come up with

13 load factors. Also looking at the companies who

14 participate, who don't participate. So to try to

15 get some reasonable idea.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So Al, this is Gary. I

17 am not sure I understand what you mean by load

18 factor. We utility folks would think about that --

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. It is not the same

20 load that you are thinking about.

21 MR. HUBER: It is not the same thing. It

22 is not the same thing. It's an adjustment for
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1 those that are not reporting.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you very much.

3 MR. HUBER: Okay.

4 MR. HANDZEL: We are trying to get up to

5 the Department of Commerce total number is the way

6 they used to do it.

7 MR. FERNSTROM: Sure.

8 MR. HUBER: Is the way -- and say other

9 data that they have. So --

10 MR HANDZEL: Right. Right. Other

11 sources.

12 MR. HUBER: Other sources to try to get

13 to rationalize the data. So as you observed the

14 double suction is at 5,311, there was no load

15 factor there. Vertical turbines were submitted at

16 5,815 and no load factor there. The multiple

17 stage split - actually split were reported at 247

18 units and 277 were load factor. They are just --

19 there is not much market there anyway.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Can I interrupt you for a

21 second?

22 MR. HUBER: Yes.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for Xylem.

2 Just to add the limitations on this survey were

3 the same as the scope at Hydraulic Institute had

4 been talking about so the 1 to 200 horse power

5 range, you know, focusing on clean water, all the

6 constraints, the temperatures, everything that we

7 defined is what we told our survey participants to

8 report.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Good that is useful. That

10 is a helpful clarification. Yes.

11 MR. HUBER: What we did is we took what

12 has been agreed to in this -- what we've agreed to

13 as the parameters that we were going after. And

14 that is what was reported. So to move on down

15 multi-stage radial split we reported 2,874 and

16 2,874 was the load factor because the same people

17 were making these split case that make these

18 others. So it is pretty evident.

19 The radial split vertical RS-V we

20 reported 44,527 units load factored up to 49,975.

21 Vertical turbine submersibles reported

22 at 78,000 and load factored up to 104,000.
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1 End suction close coupled reported at

2 94,278 load factored up to 171,456. And the

3 reason there is is that it is the most popular

4 pump around the world and there are a lot of small

5 manufacturers out there who wouldn't be reporting

6 and it is pretty significant.

7 The frame mount was reported at 31,587

8 and the load factored units were 44,042.

9 Now the next one we -- some of us or I

10 think all of our group believe might be an error,

11 the in- lines reported at 24,406 and was load

12 factored to 50,424. With all of us knowing the

13 marketplace we do not believe that there is almost

14 50% more people producing that type of pump. We

15 think that is a little bit high. And we have

16 asked them to go back and take a look at it.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?

18 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

19 Just to add on to that so what we did is we looked

20 at what manufacturers reported and we know what

21 type of pumps they make and we know we got the

22 majority of the market. So the load factor that
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1 they are applying just is way overstating it.

2 And one last thing Al and I were

3 discussing about the load factor is that the load

4 factor doesn't have anything built in based on

5 different fluid types.

6 MR. HUBER: No.

7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So it really --

8 there is some susceptibility that there might be

9 some other fluid type factors built into that and

10 we have no way to break that out.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to confirm this is

12 -- these are -- these numbers are domestic

13 manufacturers for domestic manufacturing or does

14 it include imports as well?

15 MR. HUBER: Well the load factor would

16 include imports. The load factor would include

17 imports into this market; being sold into this

18 market.

19 MR. HANDZEL: But we asked the survey

20 participants to report product being sold into the

21 U.S. market in the year that we surveyed.

22 MR. HUBER: So we can capture it all.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gotcha.

2 MR. HANDZEL: But there could be -- the

3 load factor would include people who were coming

4 in --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

6 MR. HANDZEL: -- outside of the group

7 that we are serving.

8 MR. HUBER: So we -- after we've looked

9 at the figures we haven't had it much longer than

10 the rest of you so we did look at it last night

11 and again this morning. We believe that the

12 majority of, the preponderance of these are

13 correct and very close. But we do have some issue

14 with in-line; we think it is a little high. We've

15 asked them to go back and take a look. But I

16 don't think it will bear any significance on this

17 group at this time.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?

19 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. We also

20 believe that the end suction close couple is

21 probably high and frame mount is probably high --

22 that load factor looking at the companies that
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1 they are listing that didn't report many of them

2 would not make water pumps. They would not be

3 part of this. They make pumps that would be

4 chemical duty pumps. And so I think their load

5 factor may be a little bit off there also.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, that is where -- Mark

7 Handzel. The different fluids thing I was

8 mentioning that we factored it in.

9 MR. HUBER: It is difficult -- it is

10 difficult for us to --

11 MR. CASE: I did a quick -- sorry. Greg

12 Case again. I did a quick analysis on this and

13 most of the load factors are above 70% except for

14 those two. And even -- much of them are above 75%

15 so we have 75% plus of the market in our survey on

16 most of these categories and I would say even with

17 the end suction close couple, end suction frame

18 mount and in-line would probably have a bigger

19 share of the market than this would indicate with

20 the load factor.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gotcha.

22 MR. HUBER: So probably the best we can
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1 determine somewhere between 80 -- somewhere close

2 to 85% of the market is represented by the 17

3 companies reporting.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

5 MR. HUBER: Somewhere in there.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: And it does vary although

8 Greg is right you know if they look a little high

9 on those two on the load factors however you know

10 there are a lot of small companies that

11 manufacture those. And so the load factor there

12 would be somewhat higher.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

14 Meg are you able to hear okay?

15 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I am sorry I was

16 just formulating a question over here.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Please go ahead.

18 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner, NRDC.

19 Just looking, and thanks Alison this is helpful,

20 looking at page 3 with the scope I am wondering

21 how the multi-stage radial split vertical

22 immersible pumps fall under these categories. Were
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1 there inputs for these guys? They are in yellow

2 on our left here?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That is the next page,

4 the colorful chart.

5 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I was just trying to

6 match up the data to the chart and make sure I

7 understand everything here.

8 [Discussion.]

9 MR. HUBER: The RS-V category -- This is

10 Al Huber with Patterson. The RS-V category would

11 be under multi stage radial split vertical. This

12 says immersible but it included both.

13 MR. HANDZEL: It was both types the

14 immersible and non-immersible were in that survey.

15 MS. WALTNER: Under radial split multi16 stage vertical?

17 MR. HUBER: Yes.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I

19 thought you were including -- if the immersibles

20 are really in VS1, are you sure they are included

21 in the --

22 MR. HANDZEL: I am pretty sure there was
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1 two lines there under that category we asked for

2 the regular and then the immersible one.

3 MR. HUBER: The immersible ones will be

4 what we would call submersible; right?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: No.

6 MR. HANDZEL: They are in that category.

7 MS. HUBER: They are in that category.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: That is something maybe

9 we can double check on as we talk a lot of time

10 about breaking those out separately. So --

11 MR. HANDZEL: Those two lines

12 separately?

13 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean you guys

16 specifically wanted the immersible broken out as

17 their own category which is why they are on a

18 separate line here because you all didn't want

19 them combined. And you said you thought you would

20 break it out in the survey data. So I am just

21 saying maybe as we move forward we can --

22 MR. HANDZEL: We can go back and double
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1 check that.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thank you Alison

4 and thank you Mark.

5 So and I guess as we were starting this

6 morning I had a brief conversation with a couple

7 of individuals and Al correct me if I am wrong. I

8 believe you said that NEMA, the folks who received

9 this data, they didn't have the opportunity to

10 analyze it as fully as they would have liked. And

11 you are maybe hoping that they could provide some

12 additional information soon?

13 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber with

14 Patterson. They're -- the part that they have not

15 finished or completed was the efficiency data. And

16 the efficiency data should be out today we hope.

17 That was our hope to get it out today. So

18 hopefully we will have it here tomorrow.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: And can you say a little

20 more with the data that you expect? What would

21 the efficiency data say? I am not following you

22 so far.
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1 MR. HUBER: Well we had it analyzed for

2 -- we used the form -- we did use the form that

3 they used; right that we talked about in the

4 meeting last time.

5 MR. CASE: We used the MEI form.

6 MR. HUBER: We used the MEI form.

7 MR. CASE: We were trying to get which

8 is -- we used the exact same formula that the EU

9 used in their document to create an MEI level from

10 the collective data just like we had previously.

11 So they were trying to generate the C factor from

12 the MEI equation to determine what the efficiency

13 level cut off would be at an MEI of .1 and .4. So

14 they are processing that data right now.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg --

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Are they also

17 processing

18 --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait -- whoa, whoa. Greg,

20 thank you. And the -- have you seen the raw data?

21 MR. CASE: No.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Haven't seen it?
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1 MR. CASE: No.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So you don't know --

3 MR. HUBER: We can't see it.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right.

5 Okay. Alison, go ahead.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Are they also processing

7 the shipment weighted average horsepower right now

8 because that is what -- as we discussed?

9 MR. CASE: Well your data requests are -

10 -

11 MS. WILLIAMS: That is not part of a

12 data request; that is just a real quick.

13 MR. CASE: I don't know. I am not sure

14 what -- they have your data request. And that is

15 what they were supposed to be processing.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Remember when we asked

17 for the first step which was just the shipments

18 and weighted average horsepower and all we have is

19 the shipments. So I just want to make sure that -

20 -

21 MR CASE: I'd have to go back and --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: -- weighted average
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1 horsepower doesn't got lost because it is not

2 really part of the --

3 MR. HANDZEL: Of the MEI calculation.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you getting her okay?

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Weighted based on unit

7 --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie go ahead.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to

10 clarify the so the weighted average or weighting

11 it on units -

12 -

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Units shipped and their

15 respective horsepowers in that math?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean that is

17 how I wanted to do the energy use as to that. I

18 have done it with the data that we have under NDA

19 but I do not know if that is fully representative

20 because we don't have all the companies that HI

21 has.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. CASE: This is Greg Case with HI.

2 What I would ask you to do is send Bob Asdal an

3 email specifically requesting that. And give him

4 the formula. And tell him exactly what you want

5 calculated.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Give him the

7 formula.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison, I presume that

9 is time sensitive. You want that to happen soon;

10 right?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Ask for it now.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right now. Okay. Thank

13 you.

14 Al Huber?

15 MR. HUBER: We've reviewed the data that

16 you shared with us from the NDA, the horsepower

17 data and it generally looks fairly reasonable to

18 us.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: We shared data?

20 MR. HANDZEL: It is on one of the slides

21 --

22 MR. HUBER: It is on one of your slides.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: Al and I reviewed it

2 before the meeting started. It is like you guys

3 have a calculation slide.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Is it the previous energy

5 use for upper --

6 MR. HUBER: Yes.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --

8 MR. HANDZEL: Obviously the quantities on

9 there need to be adjusted but it --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: So I actually have

11 updated those with more recent data --

12 MR. HANDZEL: Slide 9 in the back.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll come to that

14 shortly. But thank you Mark for doing that and Al

15 through the analysis. Al you're next.

16 MR. HUBER: Also we reviewed what we

17 asked on the survey and for that category --

18 MR. HANDZEL: So we combined those --

19 Mark Handzel from Xylem. We combined those two

20 groups so I don't think we have a way of breaking

21 that number out separately between those two

22 groups within the RS-V category. So I am sorry if
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1 we missed that from the last meeting but we did

2 not ask for it --

3 MR. HUBER: We did not break it out.

4 MR. HANDZEL: -- for it to be separated.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. But they can't --

6 if there is a separate -- I mean we can talk about

7 this later but it is identified in a tab so it can

8 be filtered on in the data --

9 MR. HANDZEL: It is a different bottom,

10 Bob. It sits in the water --

11 MR. CASE: I am not sure we collected

12 it.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: We did. I have seen it.

14 MR. CASE: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I assume it came

16 in the same to HI as it came in to us.

17 MR. HANDZEL: So Alison just to

18 understand those two pumps are virtually

19 identical, okay.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: But --

21 MR. HANDZEL: The only difference is

22 that the body that -- the body -- when one pump
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1 sits in the water it is immersible it can sit in

2 the water. The other one has two pieces of pipe

3 connected to it. So the pump is identical from a

4 manufacturer's prospective.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: You are saying it is

6 identical to a --

7 MS. WALTNER: VS8, the radial --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh yes, thank you. But

9 then you said last time that it's actually a VS1.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Well this is the one that

11 there was a whole bunch of debate going on because

12 we had a lot of confusion about this. But you

13 know we -- the way that we broke it down it was

14 VS8 was a radially split vertical multi stage with

15 an in-line casing. Okay. And then the second

16 category was the radially split vertical

17 immersible pump which was -- we described as the

18 immersible version of VS8.

19 MR. HUBER: And that is the way we -- Al

20 Huber, Patterson. That is the way we described it

21 to NEMA-BIS and that is the way we described it in

22 the survey.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: In the survey.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to be clear I am

3 looking at the colorful slide.

4 MR. HUBER: Yeah. The one that says VS1

5 is also VS8.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. HUBER: Correct. It is VS8. It is

8 not

9 VS1.

10 MR. HANDZEL: It is VS1 immersible.

11 MR. HUBER: Immersible and VS8.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And since immersible

14 right in the very middle of the yellow column

15 there -- the yellow stratum that wasn't a part of

16 HI's original proposal?

17 MR. HANDZEL: No.

18 MR. HUBER: No.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. I

21 mean I think it is sort of up to -- like from the

22 data I've seen it can be broken out if it is
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1 needed because it is submitted as -- listed as a

2 machine tool and not within the RS-V category. So

3 if this group wants it broken out I think NEMA

4 probably should be able to do it. But if they

5 don't want it broken out then it can be redefined.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Well we will ask them if -

7 - you know so there is a column in there that asks

8 about the pump type.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So we can ask them

11 if the manufacturers reported different pump types

12 in that column.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: And so I --

14 MR. HANDZEL: If they did --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: -- that does have that

16 broken out.

17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. All right.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Whether or not everybody

19 does

20 --

21 MR. HANDZEL: So you have seen it in the

22 surveys that manufacturers gave to --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I don't know if

2 everybody did it.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: But certainly.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Well we can ask.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We will remain

7 hopeful about that.

8 Okay. So additional comments on -- we

9 should probably also at this point just thank the

10 leaders of this data gathering effort for going

11 the extra mile and coming up with this

12 information. That is very, very helpful.

13 And hopefully that efficiency data will

14 be available at the end of the day or for

15 tomorrow, that sort of thing? Hard to say.

16 MR. HUBER: My guess is for tomorrow.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: For tomorrow. Okay.

18 Great. Go ahead.

19 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. One thing I

20 did want to point out that was kind of telling

21 about all of this. If you look at the units, the

22 green portion here of the pumps, they represent
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1 97% of all the units.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Wow.

3 MR. CASE: So what's up there in green

4 is 97% of all the units shipped.

5 MR. HANDZEL: And that is the HI

6 proposal?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah and the only thing -

8 -

9 MR. CASE: The HI proposed group.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. The only thing I

11 will add on that right now is we agree on the

12 final numbers is the only thing we know is that

13 double suction axial split pump has like 70 to 80

14 average power--

15 MR. CASE: Yes.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: -- compared to like 10.

17 So there is additional energy use relatively in

18 those categories.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Well that is useful. That

20 is a useful comment.

21 Meg Waltner?

22 MS. WALTNER: I am sorry I was just
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1 asking her to clarify which categories.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

3 Okay. Final comments or question on

4 this data sheet provided by HI that was sent out

5 in advance. Many thanks for that.

6 Do you have Alison additional data, you

7 said you have done some additional analysis?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I did update the --

9 what Mark was talking about was the -- whoops. The

10 previous energy estimates we had, I did update

11 them using --

12 MS. BROOKMAN: This is slide number 9,

13 Alison.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Slide number 9, I don't -

15 - the slide I am talking about is actually not

16 here right now. I am just talking about it. So

17 we updated the shipment weighted average

18 horsepower and we updated -- and we used energy

19 saving estimates based on the data we have under

20 NDA.

21 However because that is not the full set

22 of pumps that HI compiled it might be more prudent
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1 to wait to look at the shaft horse power and

2 energy savings estimates from that full data set.

3 So that is why it is not in the packet right now.

4 I did it but it is unclear if it is

5 representative. So I mean Mark says horsepower is

6 probably representative but the one I am less sure

7 about is the energy savings because if we are

8 missing some key manufacturers in a certain

9 category we could have the energy savings

10 estimates be off.

11 So I am basically just saying we could

12 look at it but maybe if we are getting HI data

13 today we update it and look at it tomorrow. I

14 don't know what people think about that.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: All Huber and then to

16 Chuck.

17 MR. HUBER: It is not just -- it is not

18 going to be just the horsepower, it is also going

19 to be the number of hours of operation. And as

20 we've looked at it we don't believe that --we

21 don't agree with the hours of operation shown in

22 your chart.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

2 MR. HUBER: Generally.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I have a

4 spreadsheet so we can play with operating hours if

5 you guys have you know suggestions for what to

6 use.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.

8 MR. POWERS: Yes I was going to suggest

9 the same hours but also estimated shipments if you

10 know I am just picking a few as I read IL, you

11 show 85,000 and on the HI one it showed 23,000.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, this is the old one.

13 I have an updated version. I just haven't shared

14 it yet because I didn't know if that data was

15 prudent to be shared. So that is what I want to

16 talk about. If we should look at it or if we

17 should wait until --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me clarify. You

19 are comfortable sharing it because it doesn't

20 violate the terms of NDA or anything like that.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So we can share
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1 it. It is just kind of whether it would be prudent

2 to wait for the new HI data to show up.

3 Charlie Cappellino?

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Do you have any sense

5 of what proportion that you have today of the

6 overall data collection effort? Is it roughly --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes I think -- Lot 11

8 pumps we have a lot of them but I am concerned

9 that we are missing like some of the big

10 manufacturers in the Lot 11 plus pumps which is

11 actually where we need to make the decisions. So

12 that is my main concern because like if we show it

13 -- you know the energy savings estimates we are

14 doing them basically looking at the spread of

15 efficiency and how many shipments are each of

16 them. So if we are missing a manufacturer that

17 has like really high efficiencies or really low

18 efficiencies compared to the rest of them our

19 energy savings estimates could be off.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

21 MR. HUBER: Which categories

22 specifically and which manufacturers specifically
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1 do you believe are missing?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Not --

3 MR. HUBER: That are significant enough

4 to affect these numbers?

5 MR. HANDZEL: Because you know she is

6 talking about what they collected.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know if I can

8 talk about that.

9 MR. HUBER: Well we can't make a

10 judgment on behalf of the industry to tell you

11 whether or not you are correct or not.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: I am pretty sure I am

13 correct.

14 MR. HUBER: I am positive you are

15 positive you are correct. But I'm not.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: And in at least two

17 categories I am positive I am correct.

18 MR. HUBER: Which categories are you

19 referring to? Now certainly you can share that.

20 MS. HANDZEL: She needs to protect --

21 MR. HUBER: I know but categories are

22 not proprietary.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So we don't think we have

2 all the vertical turbine manufacturers and the

3 radial split horizontal primarily.

4 MR. HUBER: We know of one that was

5 missing.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: But you're -- you don't

7 know who we have necessarily.

8 MR. HUBER: No. No. But we know of one

9 that we are missing.

10 MR. HANDZEL: And if we are missing

11 them, you are probably missing them, too.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: No but we think we are

13 missing ones that you have, that we don't.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Obviously I don't

16 know about the rest of them. But there is like

17 you know in the list of 17 companies like -- Al is

18 not believing me.

19 MR. HANDZEL: Let me do some math here

20 and think who we missed.

21 MR. HUBER: I don't think we missed

22 anybody.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: No I don't think we did.

2 But

3 --

4 Alison, can you comment does that

5 company not have an NDA, they are not going to

6 report to you guys; is that the situation?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Like we have -

8 everyone we have NDA with we have reported.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: And Alison those

11 companies for which you do have an NDA you feel

12 like you've got a pretty complete data set from

13 them?

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I have to assume

15 so.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

17 So what is the feeling of this group?

18 Alison puts it on top of the table should we look

19 at her new analysis, should we wait for the new HI

20 data to hopefully show up although we are not

21 certain it is going to show up for tomorrow. What

22 should we do?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: We would really like to

2 get this voted on at this meeting so that we can

3 do analyses at the next meeting.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Let me ask you

5 this. Do you have also information on circulators?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. We have

7 information on circulators that we can definitely

8 do circulators today.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al Huber.

10 MR. HUBER: On behalf of the industry we

11 would just as soon you go ahead and share what

12 data you have.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

14 MR. HUBER: Because we don't know when

15 we will have it. We hope to have it tomorrow but

16 -- and if we do we can adjust what you've done.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And we need both sets;

19 right. We need this set and we need the circulator

20 data because there are going to be comparisons,

21 order of magnitude types of comparisons.

22 MR. HUBER: Sure.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison proceed;

2 present that data.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: So a little caveat that

4 we are still double checking the energy savings

5 numbers.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: It is so small. I wish

7 we could print that off.

8 MR. HUBER: I do too. That would be

9 helpful for everybody.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Is this bigger --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you send that to

12 somebody and get it to print it off because people

13 want to mark it up. Maybe, you know it's -- maybe

14 we should take a ten minute break and get it

15 printed.

16 MR. STARR: Get some donuts.

17 MR. HUBER: There you go. Excellent

18 idea.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: What did you say?

20 MR. STARR: I said I'll get some donuts.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah.

22 Let's take a break. It is now ten
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1 o'clock. Let's resume at 10:15. In 15 minutes can

2 you get printed copies of this for us somehow?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you asking me?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes I am asking you.

5 MR. ADIN: Yes.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Okay. Let's do

7 that.

8 We've already made good progress on the

9 day. It is now ten o'clock we will resume in this

10 room at 10:15. Make sure to wear your badge so no

11 one with a side-arm doesn't stop you in the

12 hallway.

13 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume.

15 Thanking the team for finding a way to

16 get this printed effectively, efficiently,

17 judiciously, whatever. Thanks -- many thanks to

18 them. We will indeed be looking at these numbers

19 closely so thanks for that.

20 Alison you want to lead us off and just

21 walk us through.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Sure. Sorry.
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1 So I have it -- I have it up in

2 spreadsheet form but it should be the same thing.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Should be the same thing?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I -- it is.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.

7 MR. ADIN: The column headings are a

8 little bit different but it is the same data.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

10 MR. ADIN: They mean the same things.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: It is not the same.

12 MR. ADIN: It is not.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah it is.

14 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry I have an extra

16 column. Sorry. Okay.

17 We just got this data very recently so

18 please bear with me.

19 So the updated shipments that we got,

20 the industry shipments from NEMA are here in the

21 first column. The Shipment weighted shaft

22 horsepower at BEP is from the data we have under
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1 NDA. So this is where we are discussing it might

2 be a little bit off of the industry. I should

3 also note that in radial split horizontal I don't

4 have enough data to release. So we don't have the

5 full numbers on that at the moment. And axial

6 split we have few manufacturers. I have that

7 highlighted in orange just as like a warning sort

8 of. And there are a couple of other categories

9 like vertical turbine submersible that we are

10 missing a large portion of the market. So I just

11 want to caveat again that these are estimated

12 numbers. We don't know if they are representative

13 or not. So take it a little bit as sort of a

14 ballpark estimate.

15 I know you -- some of you guys have

16 problems with estimated hours of operation that we

17 have. They are the same as the ones we used last

18 time.

19 So anyway we update -- we've shown the

20 annual energy use numbers before. We updated

21 these with the new shipments and the new shipment

22 weighted horsepower. Everything else is the same.
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1 And so this is the terawatt -- annual energy use

2 per year of shipments terawatt hour ranges. And

3 end suction close coupled we have around 1.5 to

4 1.8 terawatt hours. And that is the highest one;

5 and it sort of goes down from there.

6 So do you guys have any questions about

7 like the first part of this before we jump over to

8 energy savings?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.

11 Could you just explain again the difference

12 between column J and column K?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So it is just two

14 hours of operation estimates. So the -- and it,

15 just the column J one, that hours of operation A

16 either my consultant estimated hours of use by

17 application and by sector -- I can't remember by

18 application and we used it to work it into the

19 different pump types depending on their split of

20 application. So that is basically a market

21 research estimate and hours of operation B is the

22 -- is what the EU used in Lot 11 for theirs.
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1 MR. CAPPILLINO: Thank you.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

3 MR. HUBER: Alison one thing that we

4 notice on the hours of operation was that the in5 lines were way higher than the end suctions and

6 one is a substitute for the other in the

7 marketplace so why would the hours of operation be

8 different.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: That is a very good

10 question. I mean I am guessing from my data that

11 we have a slightly different application split so

12 that maybe it is a substitute -- is it possibly a

13 substitute in not all areas?

14 MR. HUBER: It is usually a substitute -

15 - it is almost -- it is a customer preference.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And then in the EU

17 I don't know why they made it higher. So we can -

18 - I am happy to -- so I have this up as a

19 spreadsheet so we can plug different hours in if

20 you guys want to.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So looking at the hours

22 of operation Al which would you say is more closer
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1 to what you would expect.

2 MR. HUBER: Probably the end suction

3 close couple is closer. But I want to point out

4 something I think that and we've been discussing

5 this trying to determine the hours of operation

6 generally about 75% to 80% of the pumps sold in

7 most categories are sold as twos where you have an

8 operation, a primary and a backup for the lead and

9 the lag. So they -- both of them come into play

10 in the unit sold but both of them will not be

11 operating; one will not operate while the other is

12 operating. So that is 50% right off the top. And

13 that is about -- we are thinking about 75% of the

14 time in most applications but that being HVAC or

15 municipal or pressure booster. A lot of us

16 manufacture pressure booster systems and it always

17 at least two pumps, one is lead and one is lag. So

18 two pumps are going but only one is operating at a

19 time. So that is something we need to bear in mind

20 as we evaluate the hours of operation.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis Starr do you

22 have a question?
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1 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify you said that

2 that comprises in your estimate about 75% of

3 applications, that setup

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Of that pump type?

5 MR. HUBER: No of ones we are

6 considering.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Louis Starr.

8 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. This probably

9 is more just for me. But on the estimated hours

10 of operation I am thinking these are in commercial

11 and industrial applications so I am assuming that

12 when the employees for the most part work 2000

13 hours a year and so the factory is running, if it

14 is running two shifts, then you are running a lot

15 of hours a year. And I am wondering, just I

16 noticed that had EU and U.S. and I just noticed

17 the operation hours are less than what a typical

18 worker works. So that means that the pump is off

19 sometimes and I am kind of wanting to understand

20 why some of these numbers; I would just think what

21 is a typical operation for a commercial or an

22 industrial type use. And I am wondering why these
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1 hours would be less than that and maybe it is -- I

2 don't know if that -- whoever looked at the EU

3 stuff or the U.S. stuff maybe could answer that;

4 help me understand that.

5 MS. WILLIAM: I don't have an answer

6 right now.

7 MR. HANDZEL: So -- Mark Handzel from

8 Xylem. So Louis it is a great question in this

9 field. We have spent a lot of time trying to talk

10 this through and rationalize it this sort of

11 thing. As you said an industrial system using

12 clean water that could be running 24 hours a day

13 in any one of the processes. And that is the

14 problem is that you know as we talked about before

15 we sell pumps. We don't always know what

16 application it is going into. We know typically

17 how a HVAC system works. We know how an invective

18 process might work. You know so it is a matter of

19 an estimate. So Alison I would kick it back to

20 you if you're talking to our consultants --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

22 MR. HANDZEL: -- we should ask them how
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1 we built it up.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

3 MR. HANDZEL: We think -- we obviously

4 did a lot of scratch paperwork and went around our

5 table and you know so that is why we are saying we

6 think like that 2000 for the closed couple frame

7 mounts and the closed couple and the frame mounts

8 is pretty accurate.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: So --

10 MR. HANDZEL: But it just depends on the

11 application or the process.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I have

14 a question. I have seen what Al is talking about.

15 You go into a building there are two pumps there,

16 one is standing by, the other is running. Should

17 we have accounted for that in terms of the number

18 of pumps or the number of hours because the pump

19 that is running is running more hours. But the --

20 only one of the two of them are running.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. So we

22 can account -- I mean when we do our full analysis
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1 we can have a certain percentage of pumps running

2 whatever all the time or not you know and a

3 certain percentage on backup. So we can do that.

4 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. It doesn't --

5 Gary it really doesn't matter which way you take

6 it into consideration. It just doesn't --

7 MR FERNSTROM: As long as you do it.

8 MR. HUBER: As long as you do. That is

9 all I was pointing at; we just need to bear that

10 in mind that whether you said this was running all

11 the time and this other one because they are both

12 shipments.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: So --

14 MR. HUBER: It doesn't really matter

15 which way you do it. You just need to take it

16 into account that is all.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So Al this is

18 Gary. In terms of my thinking I'd rather have a

19 correct or reasonable number of hours but fewer

20 pumps than to cover more pumps but fewer hours.

21 It's -- you're right. It is just a question of --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.
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1 MR. ADIN: I was just going to point out

2 that we don't actually know for sure whether the

3 hours that we have up here are system hours or per

4 pump hours so that gets to part of the issue that

5 Al raised. And maybe the issue to some extent

6 that Louis raised like why they may seem lower

7 than you might expect because it may not be actual

8 total system operating time. We are going to have

9 to try and figure that out --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Power.

11 MR. ADIN: -- where these came from.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, I am sorry. Go ahead

13 Chuck.

14 MR. POWERS: Yes. I support all the

15 discussion you all have and because I think it is

16 important to understand it. For example when you

17 get down to the vertical turbines down here at the

18 bottom the 5000 units and all that under 200 horse

19 if there is an agricultural application right. In

20 Nebraska the growing season mainly is late May,

21 early June through August. Now if somebody were

22 to say to me 1600 hours for that unit to run,
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1 okay; I could be okay with that; right. But I ran

2 a business on agricultural for many years, one of

3 our clinics out there and it was mostly

4 agricultural. And even then the bottom line is

5 the center pivot running 24 hours a day. In most

6 cases it would be. Even people say when it rains

7 they shut them off. No. The rain doesn't give

8 them the water they need. Now it depends on the

9 system, is it drip irrigation where the pivot is

10 still running but you've got this little drips

11 which saves the wind blowing and evaporating or is

12 it ground irrigation; it doesn't matter it is

13 running.

14 Then you go to southern California

15 irrigation. A lot of them are submersibles; a lot

16 of that. They'll have growing seasons, people

17 argue well it is year round. To a certain degree

18 it is almost year round but they're seasonable.

19 They will have a growing season for two months.

20 Then they have got to turn the fields and do

21 whatever and everything shuts down for a month and

22 they go -- so you've got to -- what I am trying to
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1 say is every one of these will be different.

2 Even these end suctions will be a little

3 more tougher because they go into a lot of

4 applications. You go into Jersey, you go into --

5 I'll pick one that I have been at many times, a

6 toothpaste plant. We are talking about hours

7 running. So lisel (ph) end suction running these

8 toothpaste plants and they'll run you know for

9 that seven hour shift, then it shuts down. So

10 people think some of these applications are

11 running when the plant is operating; absolutely.

12 But when the plant shuts down they don't leave all

13 that machine running because that is going to cost

14 them a lot of money and nobody is monitoring it

15 and there is not as many automated as you may

16 think.

17 Then you go to municipality, we heard

18 about the 100% capacity is well known as. So

19 they'll buy two units, one of them is running and

20 if it craps out they are not going to let the

21 Mayor's wife not be able to take a shower in the

22 morning so they turn on the other one so it can
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1 run.

2 So you know I think the answer is -- or

3 I think the message is it is very important to

4 look at each one of these and my guess would be

5 that the sum of the nomenclatures is going to have

6 a broader range of what it is going to be.

7 But I think what Mark and Al are also

8 saying is you've got to be careful about the

9 quantity, it is more on the hours that is very

10 important; right. So we don't think they are all

11 running because they are not probably. But more

12 important is to analyze and say okay is you know I

13 am just picking one, is 1913 hours a good average

14 for that.

15 So if the consultants try to break down

16 how many categories and try to look at it if the

17 number comes out to 1920 or 1730 you know we are

18 in the right ballgame and we just have to make

19 sure we are comfortable with it.

20 But when you get down to the RSH as you

21 call it and there is I think our report said you

22 know 2800 units. Now these multi-stage radials
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1 get into applications that are very high energy or

2 whatever and very specific so their operating

3 hours may be completely different than others;

4 right. So just --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean we will certainly

7 do further research on the operating hours and all

8 I can say for today is I just made an extra column

9 and if you guys want me to plug some different

10 numbers in right now we can take a look at those

11 results.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al first and then Louis.

13 MR. HUBER: In general if your end

14 suctions, your in-lines and your double suction

15 split case generally are substitutes for each

16 other in a lot of the market; in fact in most of

17 the market. So those operating hours should be

18 pretty much the same --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --

20 MR. HUBER: -- in all three categories.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So 2000 --

22 MR. HANDZEL: I would use 2000 for all
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1 them.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- for all --

3 MR. HUBER: I would use 2000 for all --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Obviously that matches

6 pretty closely with what you have for the end

7 suctions already.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So I can just

9 leave those the same. I have updated in-line and

10 double suction to 2000. Do you guys want any of

11 the other ones --

12 MR. HUBER: Yes, I would like --

13 MR. HANDZEL: She said she was going to

14 -- they are close.

15 MR. HUBER: They are close

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis and then Steve?

17 MR. STARR: So one thing I would say is

18 these hours of operation and this is where you go

19 that is you know the 90.1 committee around a bunch

20 of engineers and they've got 16 P&L or prototypes

21 and they've got all these figured out for the

22 commercial buildings and probably residential but
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1 mainly residential places so they have all these

2 hours figured out.

3 MR. HANDZEL: By geographic zone.

4 MR. STARR: Right.

5 MR. HANDZEL: By climate zone so there

6 is still some factors involved there. It is going

7 to be different in the north than it is in the

8 south.

9 MR. STARR: Right.

10 MR. HANDZEL: And heating and cooling

11 loads. They do have a lot of good models.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: But it is residential you

13 say?

14 MR. HANDZEL: No it is commercial.

15 MR. STARR: No. It is commercial. So

16 they get these hours down and they -- you can go

17 and pull the schedules out of the models. They end

18 up using eQUEST model that has all these numbers.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Good.

20 MR. STARR: So you can pull up -- but

21 one of the things I would say is that really in a

22 commercial building ops -- I am not talking about
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1 the fact that you may have redundancy really it is

2 the amount of hours that the building is open. So

3 when you went to work this morning they didn't

4 turn it on just as soon as you came in the door.

5 It is five days a week times 12 times 52 weeks a

6 year, it is 3000 hours in a commercial application

7 for that and again in industrial it is at least

8 that; and usually more. So I mean really to me

9 these numbers should be a lot higher to have. But

10 if you take and estimate the fact that there is

11 you know double pumps or you've got multiple

12 double or what do you call it -- redundancy at the

13 pumps which they do in commercial but I am not so

14 much sure in industrial how much they do

15 redundancy of the system --

16 MR. HUBER: Yeah we did.

17 MR. STARR: Okay. So and that may be

18 reflected in what he uses and that is why these

19 numbers may be coming down to this number. But I

20 think it would probably be good to understand what

21 - how these numbers are coming about. I should

22 ask in HI's did you take in the factor in the
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1 estimation of your hours that you're getting

2 redundancy of pumps or is that not part of your

3 figuring?

4 MR. HUBER: Yes we did.

5 MR. STARR: Okay.

6 MR. HUBER: Yeah we did and we did it in

7 hours of operation rather than units; I mean units

8 were reported.

9 MR. STARR: Okay.

10 MR. HUBER: And so I mean you can do it

11 either way. You've got to know that you've got a

12 pump sitting there and they are not running.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So, Al, just to

14 confirm, thanks for that last comment, the numbers

15 that HI submitted for estimated hours that

16 reflects that duplicate -- that doubling up of

17 pumps and the fact that half of them run half the

18 time or something?

19 MR. HANDZEL: So just to clarify, Doug,

20 this is Mark. We didn't estimate -- we haven't

21 submitted this.

22 MR. HUBER: We haven't submitted --
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1 MR. HANDZEL: We were preparing for the

2 discussion today.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

4 MR. HANDZEL: So that was what we were

5 preparing for knowing that we were going to need

6 to have this discussion.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Follow along with

8 Charlie.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,

10 ITT. One of the things I would suggest is to

11 simply add a column after estimated shipments to

12 estimated units operating because it is going to

13 get pretty confusing I think if we --

14 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- mix the two

16 together. So that way you can separate the

17 discussion, here is the units shipped, here is the

18 units that are operating. Then you can say of the

19 operating units here is what the typical hours are

20 so it is clear. Otherwise it is going to get

21 muddy.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.
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1 MR. STARR: There is another aspect we

2 probably hadn't thought about, that is why we

3 haven't done it yet but it would go to the

4 analysis, the life cycle cost analysis. If you

5 think about it reflected in all the pumps then all

6 of a sudden you are running the pumps half the

7 time so now you have just doubled the lifetime of

8 your pumps and so the -- what a typical pump in a

9 box let's say take a circulator, a pump that you

10 have a seven year life on but if you are now

11 running it half of the time is your life 14 years

12 or is it seven. So I mean that is what -- maybe

13 for what we are doing right now it is okay. But

14 when you start to figure out life cycle cost

15 analysis it starts to be very important whether

16 you just divide the hours or the units or --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. We are

18 currently in the LCC accounting for operating

19 hours, we have mechanical lifetime in hours and

20 operating hours so the lifetime is dependent on

21 operating hours.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Chuck?
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1 MR. POWERS: If you look at Hydraulic

2 Institute's write up of life cycle, you look at

3 the ones done by power companies actually those

4 units that only run half the time are in worse

5 shape. When they are sitting in fluid and it is

6 cast iron, even if it is stainless there is

7 something in the cathodic protection side of it,

8 no matter what fluid you are dealing with, okay,

9 something is going to start to give. Go park your

10 car, this is a dumb example; go park your car

11 outside for a year. And then go drive one every

12 day. Tell me which one is going to run at the end

13 of the year; right. That is a dumb example but

14 pumps when it varies -- and now for what is it

15 worth Charlie and I and I think some of the other

16 guys on verticals, deal with a lot of verticals,

17 it is even worse on verticals because half the

18 pumps is in the fluid and half isn't and if you've

19 got what's called splash zones with a salt

20 water/fresh water it just -- and I think Doug down

21 there deals a lot of operating units. I mean it -

22 - in my opinion if you don't run a pump everyday
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1 it is going to be worse off than the one that is

2 running.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have that data

4 somewhere?

5 MR. POWERS: There is a lot of data. If

6 you look at -- I brought it with me, the one book

7 that was done by HI on life cycle.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MR. POWERS: They actually have some

10 pretty neat stuff in there on how they look at

11 things. There are a lot of people written, the

12 power companies have done studies for years; you

13 know that becomes a big factor. Now part of it in

14 the early days was they would try to upgrade

15 materials. Hey let's go to duplexes and all this

16 stuff. It didn't help. It really didn't help

17 because everything will build up a protection or

18 you know and it just starts to come apart or you

19 will have corrosion, there is a long list of

20 things.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?

22 MR. ADIN: So we can try and incorporate
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1 those kinds of factors into our lifetime --

2 MR. POWERS: Yeah. All I'm saying Lucas

3 is yeah I agree if it is not running as much, yes,

4 there is less wear and tear, no argument there,

5 right.

6 MR. ADIN: Right.

7 MR. POWERS: But it isn't a pure -- it

8 is only running half the time so the life cycle is

9 twice. It isn't as pure as that in my opinion --

10 MR. ADIN: Understood.

11 MR. POWERS: -- based on the application

12 it can actually be worse.

13 MR. ADIN: Gotcha.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

15 MR. STARR: Yes. I was just going to say

16 yes that makes sense. I think we are probably

17 looking at both of those life cycles but just more

18 my point was is however it figures into the model

19 because it will make a difference like these hours

20 of operation really and it sounds like we are

21 going to do that differently but I think -- I

22 don't know how the affects would be but it would
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1 definitely -- I think it would maybe change your

2 analysis.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

4 MR. ADIN: Yeah. That -- and these

5 points are all well taken. And I think the take

6 away for us you know we are not going to be able

7 to refine this today necessarily but there are a

8 lot of other potential data sources that we could

9 look at that could serve as a proxy for helping us

10 evaluate how reasonable these numbers are; and

11 maybe help us get to a more -- you know a better

12 estimate. I mean there is a lot industry data out

13 there, whether it is from EIA data or other survey

14 data that will give us an idea within the

15 industries that use these pumps to try to figure

16 it out. So something we are going to work on.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

19 I'm going to ask a couple of questions about they

20 are now columns R & S under the energy savings

21 estimates. On the slide you handed out you said

22 that --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry can we make sure we

2 are -- I want to finish with the energy use before

3 we go to energy savings --

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, okay.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: -- to keep it cleaner.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Then do that Alison. How

7 -- ask a question.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I mean as Lucas said

9 we will go back and work on the operating hours

10 some more for the real analysis.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, you didn't finish

12 with that. Okay.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: But is -- like are we --

14 I made those two changes to 2000 like are we okay

15 for today to look at these energy use estimates

16 for everything else? Like are you guys --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?

18 MR. ADIN: We didn't include non19 electric pumps or whatever.

20 MR. HUBER: The only thing that we are

21 concerned about right now is the vertical

22 turbines.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: The last one.

2 MR. HUBER: Because they are

3 predominately agricultural?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

5 MR. HUBER: And I know that Arnie over

6 here has come from manufacturing and he was giving

7 us some examples that he gave --

8 MR. SDANO: Yes, a pump that was

9 returned 15 years in service and they had only

10 5000 hours on it. And that is sort of typical of

11 what we see for ag.

12 MR. HUBER: That is pretty typical. I

13 have known a farm in Arkansas where we grow rice

14 and that pump doesn't run 400 hours a year.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: 15 years in service,

16 Arnie and --

17 MR. SDANO: 5000 hours.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: 5000 hours.

19 MR. HUBER: We think that probably --

20 because it is predominately ag we think that that

21 probably is a little high but --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so I mean the energy
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1 use is only .02 terawatt hours at the moment so we

2 can play with it but it is still --

3 MR. HANDZEL: It's --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know.

5 MR. HUBER: It's not worth talking

6 about.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I think the thrust of

8 what Alison's question is since we started doing

9 this are there other corrections that we would

10 make to estimated hours or annual energy use? Just

11 suggest now for the purpose of the ongoing

12 analysis.

13 MR. HANDZEL: You have our --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to look to

15 manufacturers first, Steve?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional you

17 wish to add at this point?

18 MR. HANDZEL: You have our comments.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We have

20 Steve. Meg Waltner, go ahead.

21 MS. WALTNER: Yes sorry I did have one

22 question on the average percent load of 74%
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1 Alison; is that just an estimate?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so yeah we have a

3 report on motor load that the average is 68% but

4 obviously motor load depends on how the motor is

5 sized with the pump so we don't really know. So

6 we basically just made an estimate, this is based

7 on -- okay I see it, okay, that was not helpful. I

8 think it -- this is the affinity law, so I think

9 the 50% flow is 74% power load, power draw. It is

10 a total SWAG. But we can also change this

11 estimate.

12 MS. WALTNER: No I don't have a

13 suggestion. I just wanted to understand.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah and this is

15 something that when we do the full energy analysis

16 obviously we will be matching pumps with drivers

17 and we will have an actual real number.

18 MS. WALTNER: Thank you.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again just about the

21 hours of use did you want to add in a minimum

22 hours for the VT of like 400?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Louder, Steve.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. Following

3 up did you want to use a, you know you can use for

4 the VTs based on that comment a minimum hours of

5 400 then the max would be 1700.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al state for the

7 record, Al Huber?

8 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. We were thinking

9 more of the minimum average hours was closer to

10 about 750.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That is useful. Tom

12 Eckman?

13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah not in the northwest.

14 MR. HUBER: Well it depends on where you

15 are.

16 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think there is like

17 California, northwest and were are at 1800, 2000

18 hours typically. So they are trying to get that

19 last ounce of --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison would you have

21 capacity by pump, by segment, by region?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah I mean all these LCC
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1 can be done regionally if there is data available

2 for that.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MR. ECKMAN: I am assuming that in the

5 LCC you are going to get distributions of hours of

6 operations anyway?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah I mean I should be

8 clear about this, but LCC is way more complicated

9 than this. This is just to give like a back of the

10 envelope calculation so we can talk about whether

11 we are going to cover things or not.

12 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: And as Tom said yes there

14 will be distributions for everything. It will be

15 based on region if appropriate. It will be based

16 on applications. So you know we can get --

17 hopefully next meeting if we have scope and metric

18 decided we can go through LCC and we can talk

19 about all these things in more detail.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

21 MR. CASE: Greg Case with Hydraulic

22 Institute. Our question I guess would be then
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1 none of our shipment data is regionalized so how

2 would you know that 1700 pumps went to this area

3 and 300 pumps went to that area?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean we will have to

5 look at the data. I am not sure off hand but you

6 know like we have FRIS data for agriculture which

7 has a number of pumps in different regions. So

8 like you could distribute proportions that way;

9 things like that. I can't recall what we are

10 doing right now. But it just depends on what

11 application data there is in addition to the

12 shipments data.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? Then Gary.

14 MR. HUBER: The horsepower you show on

15 vertical turbines at four, we think that is not

16 correct.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

18 MR. HUBER: We think it is closer to 25.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah so this is one of

20 the ones that we were worried we didn't have a

21 representative. So we can --

22 MR. HUBER: We think it is closer to 25
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1 Alison.

2 MR. HANDZEL: Per pivot.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: We can check that out.

4 MR. HANDZEL: This is Mark. We reported

5 our data from motor data and I know I looked at it

6 last night and basically confirmed that number to

7 Al. So -

8 -

9 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

10 MR. HANDZEL: -- I know it is part of

11 your --

12 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: You'd never get

13 any water out the other end.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: This is good. Gary

15 Fernstrom?

16 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I

17 would just like to support Tom Eckman's

18 observation that the pump guys in the west are

19 really happy particularly California because it

20 hasn't rained.

21 [Laughter]

22 MR. HANDZEL: What can we do about that
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1 Gary?

2 MR. HUBER: Well actually there is no

3 water to pump.

4 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.

5 MR. HUBER: Not real happy.

6 MR. FERNSTROM: Well they can't drill

7 the wells fast enough and put --

8 MR. HANDZEL: And deep enough.

9 MR. FERNSTROM: -- so it varies

10 throughout the country for sure.

11 MR. HANDZEL: It does.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

13 Are we ready to move on to the next

14 slide? Alison do you have --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: -- any questions?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: So I mean great -- so

18 last time we showed the annual energy use

19 estimates the only -- and that is what is here.

20 What we added this time was some energy savings

21 estimates to give some ides of the range on each

22 of these. And again this might change when we get
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1 the full data set. We looked at four different

2 estimates of saving energy; two based on MEI and

3 two based on PER. And so one scenario is that you

4 take -- what we are showing right here is based on

5 MEI 40. So what we did was take all the pumps

6 like that would fail MEI 40 and roll them up to

7 the minimum standard.

8 And we also did another one where they

9 rolled up above the minimum standard. So like if

10 you are hydraulically redesigning and you are

11 shooting for probably above the standard

12 somewhere. So just to sort of bracket some

13 possibilities.

14 So I am not -- I mean we could go into

15 more detail on that but I just want to sort of

16 give an idea of how we did it. So it is basically

17 looking at -- you know we looked at the efficiency

18 increases by looking at those two scenarios and

19 translated that into energy savings. And so I

20 just took the min and max of each of those four

21 scenarios for each of these. And you can see they

22 are pretty low ranging from across all product
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1 types from .1% to 6.5% energy savings from going

2 to an MEI 40. And so the resulting -- I have the

3 resulting energy savings in terawatt hours in the

4 power point and here it also translated it into

5 quads in case -- over 30 years in case anyone is

6 interested in looking at that.

7 So basically these are the numbers that

8 we got. They're fairly low. I have totals down

9 here on the spreadsheet that I don't have on the

10 slide also just you know to know that we are

11 looking at a whole package and it doesn't

12 necessarily matter to us how much each equipment

13 class saves because it is not -- the incremental

14 burden of covering each equipment class

15 analytically is very small for these pump types so

16 because we can do them all essentially the same

17 way. So just they are --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel?

19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes just to clarify, Mark

20 Handzel from Xylem. So based on this you really

21 are just factoring -- what is shown here is just

22 the savings based on a pump efficiency
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1 improvement? There is no factor built into here

2 for using a variable speed drive?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. Yeah, so even

4 for the PER we just --

5 MR. HANDZEL: The power point --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- started using the

7 default.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So this is the pump

9 manufacturer's efficiency improvement based --

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

11 MR. HANDZEL: -- on setting a baseline

12 that we cut off at the least efficient pump.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. Yes.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: For the pump only.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, essentially.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: And Alison could you

19 explain again the difference between the min

20 column and the max column.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I really have -

22 - we will just show them here -- I really have
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1 four different scenarios. We looked at both MEI

2 and PER which as Mark said the PER we are

3 basically just translating the MEI into the PERs

4 so it is using default everything motor.

5 And then the other two scenarios are

6 shift versus rollups. The rollup is where we take

7 40% of pumps that were cut off and assigned them

8 the minimum efficiency so that is a lower energy

9 savings. And the shift scenario is where you

10 assume that they rollup higher than the minimum

11 level because pump manufacturers are potentially

12 over -- you know they are not going to design to

13 just barely meet the minimum likely because you

14 might miss; right.

15 MR. CASE: So what level was that?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think she is

17 assuming that they are rolling up to the average

18 of the pumps that didn't fail.

19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Is there -- this is

20 Charlie Cappellino. Is there an equivalent MEI

21 that would be associated with that?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so it is not -- it
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1 is MEI 40 and you are just taking those 40% of

2 pumps and assigning them either the minimum

3 efficiency or an average efficiency of the non4 failing pumps. It is still MEI 40 it is just a

5 scenario of how we would handle that. And so this

6 is something that when we do the full analysis we

7 can go into a lot of discussion about how we make

8 those decisions about what is actually going to

9 happen in the market. And I just sort of wanted

10 to bracket the potential savings.

11 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve I am going to going

13 to go to the manufacturing side first. It will be

14 much clearer -- data as possible, Chuck.

15 MR. POWERS: Yes. So I think Alison

16 what you guys are doing is excellent. But I think

17 what is important is when we force these

18 manufacturers to make changes in hydraulics the

19 point you are putting at is just the BEP; correct?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: No it is so that MEI is

21 taking --

22 MR. POWERS: It is going to be that
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1 range?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- into the three points

3 and PER is taking into account --

4 MR. POWERS: Okay. So what some

5 manufacturers are going to do is in designing

6 hydraulics you can make what we call peaking

7 pumps.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

9 MR. POWERS: You can focus just on the

10 BEP and do a great job improve it all. When you

11 go across the curve it becomes more difficult to

12 get them all to come up. And you will have

13 certain manufacturers just give up and walk away

14 from it.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah and so we --

16 MR. POWERS: We have to be very careful

17 that if we're asking for an err of better

18 efficiency of .2% or something, I am just saying,

19 that is what the European guys found and that is

20 why they eliminated some of these other, said look

21 no argument they just said not only are these

22 numbers very low, it doesn't impact us much, let's
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1 focus on the ones we can address. But when you

2 have the types of products, right, like you talked

3 the other day that the higher the horsepower

4 Charlie sees, I see and some of the other guys

5 will specialize a product around a particular

6 design when you get in the big 5000 horsepower

7 something like that because you can afford to do

8 it. But when you are making a line of product and

9 I don't but let's say the circulators, right, and

10 you've got thousands of them going out the door.

11 You know it is very difficult to say okay whatever

12 change we make what about the repeatability and

13 sustainability of it. Do you know what I mean?

14 Because they are standard run of the mill; you've

15 got a -- versus an engineer you can tweak, you can

16 touch. So we also have to be careful that we don't

17 get to the point where we think the pump is the

18 Holy Grail and it is going to answer everybody's

19 question because you're only going to get so much

20 out of it. And we can do things. But we've got

21 to be very careful that we don't incriminate

22 ourselves.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. And obviously as

2 you can see to me these percentages are fairly low

3 so I think it goes to your point that there is

4 only so much you can get out of it. I will add

5 that in this scenario I didn't include dropping

6 pumps. We will certainly include that in our full

7 scenario because we know that some manufacturers

8 will drop some of their models.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

11 In those columns and again I appreciate this if in

12 typical rule makings you have candidate standard

13 levels and trial levels and trial standard levels.

14 So you have different levels of efficiency that

15 you consider. Typical rulemaking has five

16 standards let's just say you know. Level 1 being

17 just barely above the base line; level 5 being max

18 tech. For these columns what level would these

19 represent?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is --

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again I know it is just

22 bare pump but I am just saying in terms of if we
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1 were doing a full blown analysis and it be a trial

2 standard level what would this kind of be

3 analogous to?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is MEI 40 which

5 is cutting off 40% of the market. I mean

6 presumably we would also look at MEI 10, maybe

7 something between 10 and 40 and then I am sure we

8 would look at a couple above 40. Max tech would

9 be we are getting max or lately we are --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: This would be mid-range.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This would be about

12 Level 3; right?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Essentially 2 or 3,

14 something like that.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again nothing --

16 nothing in writing I am just -- Steve Rosenstock

17 just trying to get a ballpark for everybody.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah we figured and I

19 actually have numbers on other efficiency levels

20 but I didn't want to get super overwhelmed in

21 looking at that right now. So --

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
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1 I appreciate that because I think it kind of gives

2 us an idea of what a possible range might be in

3 terms of again just for this segment, again just

4 for the bare pump what the energy savings are

5 going to be in this category especially -- when I

6 did an average of all that columns R and S, I just

7 did just a quick average for the minimum, it is

8 1.4%, for the maximum it is 3.5%. So and that is

9 a level 3. So again just to give you an idea of

10 what might be out there in terms of level 1, level

11 2, level 4 possibly.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve, thank you.

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Meg.

15 MS. WALTNER: I just have a quick

16 clarification. If these percentages are on a

17 market average basis; right? They are not per

18 pump savings?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. It is market

20 average.

21 MS. WALTNER: So it. Okay.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Doug Potts.

2 MR. POTTS: Yeah. Doug Potts. I have

3 another question about your efficiency tables. Are

4 these all based on -- I am assuming it is all

5 based on brand new product. I am wondering do you

6 factor in decline in efficiency or latent decline

7 just due to normal wear and tear?

8 MS. WILIAMS: So we in the LCC we have

9 it set up to include an efficiency degradation

10 factor that is not included in these estimates.

11 And these terawatt hour savings are just for a

12 single year. So this would be for full efficiency

13 improvement. So and even when I did the quads I

14 didn't account for anything. So something we

15 should certainly discuss moving down the line. But

16 it is not accounted for today.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: You all set?

18 MR. POTTS: I mean it is good to know. I

19 think that is something that should be factored in

20 just in our experience we see on average a decline

21 in efficiency about 1% per year; just normal wear

22 and tear. So you've got a great pump when it is
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1 brand new but that efficiency improvement only

2 lasts for a year so then you have to factor that

3 in.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: And so I in that sense

6 these are not conservative scenarios, right. So

7 you can look at these --

8 MR BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

9 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. You know

10 another thing kind of tying in with that same

11 thing efficiency most of the time their impellers

12 get on the smaller ones get trimmed when they go

13 out to the field. So really what you think their

14 efficiency is and actual energy use is different

15 and so I don't know if your model can take that in

16 account but --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So you bring up a

18 good point. We're currently ignoring trimming

19 impellers and that is sort of a conversation that

20 we have had with HI moving forward. I mean in the

21 past. Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: I am just going to wait

2 until you all are done talking.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to comment on

4 this? Al Huber?

5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. It

6 would exponentially complicate this discussion you

7 can take a typical small pump, you are talking

8 about you may drift two inches or an inch and a

9 half but you might trim it in increments of a

10 sixth to an eighth of an inch in order to satisfy

11 a customer's layout.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: What, what --

13 MR. HUBER: So I mean you are talking

14 about -- you are talking about a huge range here.

15 And I know the Europeans decided right away that

16 it was -- it made it so complex that they picked

17 BEP so they could get one from that diameter so

18 they could get one diameter. If you improve the

19 efficiency at the BEP after what I -- you will

20 improve the efficiency all the way down the -- all

21 the way down the diameter.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison, Dan
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1 just reminded me, and as Al is saying the delta

2 efficiency improvement is going to be the same no

3 matter whether

4 --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino to

6 follow on.

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Louis why don't you go

8 ahead. You had your hand up.

9 MR. STARR: One of the things I was

10 going to say it is more -- I am thinking of the

11 life cycle cost analysis how the cost of energy so

12 if you are running something pretty efficient but

13 then it turns out you are actually running it less

14 efficient that means there is more energy out

15 there to be saved. So it is not a question of the

16 delta in efficiency as it is as how much energy

17 there is to be -- how much -- instead of using

18 let's say 40 kilowatt hours, you are using 1600

19 kilowatt hours. So there is more energy out there

20 as an opportunity that is cost associated with it.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So typical --

22 MR. STARR: So it weights your model.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Agreed but trimmed

2 impellers will typically be using less energy even

3 though they are less efficient because they are

4 running lower.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

6 MR. HUBER: So that -- that's-- Al

7 Huber. That is one thing you have to consider and

8 we really are talking about energy usage and not

9 efficiency. We are talking about something about

10 efficiency. That is not really what we are after.

11 We are after eliminating horsepower to the E. So

12 if we trim it and we get close to where you really

13 need it then you are much better off even if the

14 efficiency drops a point or two.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie do you want in

16 here?

17 MR. CAPPELINO: I just wanted to agree

18 with Al that from a regulation standpoint trying

19 to regulate around different trims or efficiencies

20 at different trims gets super complicated and we

21 should push that aside. But I would say that from

22 an energy usage standpoint that you could look at
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1 it and say on a broad basis impellers are trimmed

2 by a certain percentage on average and build that

3 into your energy use calculation. But you have

4 got to look at both pieces of it; the efficiency

5 difference but also the power goes down by the

6 cube of the impeller diameter so the energy usage

7 goes down quite a bit as well. You can look at

8 them separately. I wouldn't try to mix them

9 together, that would get way --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Is there a follow on,

11 Louis?

12 MR. STARR: The other thought about it

13 is there is an understanding of how much -- if you

14 know the distribution of your trim, impeller

15 trims, what that could also help out and a better

16 way to think about it rather than trimming the

17 impeller if you have the ability to have a VFD to

18 the right side of the pump it is probably a better

19 option. So what that could be reflected in is

20 actually in your metric that showing that having a

21 VFD is better than trimming the impeller so it can

22 actually encourage the sales of VFDs instead of
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1 trim. So it is not actually affecting the

2 efficiency of the pump but encouraging the market

3 towards --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

5 MR. HUBER: Yes that is true Louis as

6 long as -- if you can trim it to the exact point

7 and it always stays there, it doesn't vary, the

8 load doesn't vary, then your scenario is not true.

9 MR. STARR: Yeah.

10 MR. HUBER: So yeah because you would

11 actually lose energy by having a VFD on because it

12 is burning some energy itself. So yeah I don't

13 know this trimming the impeller is an issue.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?

15 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

16 Just in support every -- it is all coming back,

17 Louis, because of the application, it depends how

18 the consulting engineer told us to build the pump,

19 some of them are very specific and they -- we do

20 see consulting engineers with a preference,

21 exactly what you just described give me a full

22 diameter pump and I'll vary the speed. So we are
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1 seeing those type of things. But it depends on

2 all these various input factors in terms of how we

3 are told to build it.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom.

5 MR. HANDZEL: Predominately though we

6 are still told trim the impeller to match the duty

7 point.

8 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

9 MR. HANDZEL: And then they still put a

10 drive on it and slow it down to take out all of

11 the over safety factors that are in the system.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw both Tom and Lucas

13 at the same time. Tom.

14 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

15 Council. I think you can correct me if I am wrong

16 but I think so long as both the base case analysis

17 and the improved case analysis reflect whatever

18 parameters we choose the delta will always be

19 there and the delta will actually be bigger

20 because it affects the base case worse, has more

21 of an impact on the base case than it does the

22 efficient case. So you know you have got to just
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1 keep -- make sure that the assumptions affect both

2 the baseline usage and the efficient cases.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note that several

4 members are nodding their heads in agreement to

5 Tom's statement.

6 Lucas, go ahead.

7 MR. ADIN: Yeah well Tom just make the

8 point I think I was going to that the delta --

9 ultimately when it comes to establishing the basis

10 for a particular standard, the delta is what we

11 care about.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

13 MR. ADIN: Louis raises a very good

14 point that it is worth thinking about like when it

15 comes to actually estimating realistic life cycle

16 cost how much does the trimmed impeller matter but

17 given these enormous complexities do we care what

18 that is in our spread. And I'll also remind

19 everyone at least for the purposes of regulatory

20 coverage we did agree already that full impeller

21 is the basis for the standard.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: I want us to move on. And
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1 the reason is I want to make sure we discuss all

2 these slides fully because when we return from

3 lunch I want to give each caucus a chance to

4 caucus over lunch should they need to caucus

5 because when we return from lunch I think we may

6 be like to see if we are prime -- pardon my pun,

7 to have a vote on circulators. That would be my

8 hope and expectation. So let's move on to the

9 next slide.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I want to finish -

11 - I think -- so I mean I think what we were hoping

12 with this is you have energy estimates, we have a

13 range of energy savings estimates. Do you guys

14 want to have a conversation now about coverage or

15 setting standards for some of these items because

16 this was what we were waiting for to have this

17 discussion.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: The thrust of the

19 discussion at the last meeting was that the energy

20 efficiency advocacy caucus wanted to be able to

21 compare so they wanted to see the most current

22 data on circulators before they are willing to --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: They wanted to see this

2 before circulators; right. So I mean we can look

3 at circulators too, whatever. It doesn't --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I want all this

5 publication material out now. That is what I

6 want.

7 MR. HANDZEL: It is out. I think it is

8 out.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison you --

10 MR. ADIN: Correct me if you are wrong

11 but - - if I am wrong --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

13 [Group talking and laughing]

14 MR. ADIN: I will correct myself if I am

15 wrong. What you are saying is you want to get -

16 not address votes on individual parts as we go but

17 get all the data out?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: I just --

19 MR. ADIN: So we can talk about and then

20 we'll --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I read that transcript at

22 least twice.
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1 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And I heard from the

3 energy efficiency advocate that they are doing

4 comparisons; right.

5 MR. ADIN: Right.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: And so they wanted to see

7 because I -- at the end of the last meeting I was

8 pushing to consider by even a straw poll just to

9 get a temperature read on circulators. And

10 several individuals spoke and said no we need to

11 defer. Go ahead.

12 MR. ADIN: Right. I think Alison --

13 well -- Alison will correct me --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: I want to make sure that

15 no one -- and if we are going to do any more

16 arguing about these numbers, let's do it now;

17 right. And not come back and argue about them

18 later. So --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we were pretty

20 much done arguing about the numbers.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

22 MR. HANDZEL: We said you have our
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1 input. This is what our --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

3 MR. HANDZEL: I mean we still say there

4 are other things to consider. But you have our

5 input.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. Okay. So these

7 are the numbers that you are going to think about

8 when you all are determining whether to cover

9 these yellow pumps or not, right? Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

11 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. Alison you have

12 altered this. I mean you have adjusted from our

13 comments this screen; right.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

15 MR. HUBER: So we either need to get a

16 new copy of it which I hate to ask you to do or we

17 need to run it down the chain so we are reminded

18 when they caucus knows what they are looking at.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: So I only did a couple.

20 So do you all want to make some cross-outs on your

21 sheets right now?

22 MR. HUBER: That is fine.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

2 MR. HUBER: If you want to go through

3 the changes then we will cross them out.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour has got a

5 question.

6 MR. BARBOUR: I have got a question. Bob

7 Barbour from TACO. When you made those changes

8 for example to the hours --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

10 MR. BARBOUR: -- did that reflect all

11 the way across?

12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

13 MR. HUBER: That is why I want to --

14 MR. BARBOUR: I didn't see it changing

15 Al.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Well some of them were

17 not visible changes. So --

18 MR. HUBER: They need --

19 MS. WILLIAMS: No I mean because the --

20 of the rounding. It just didn't make that big a

21 difference.

22 [Discussions] Okay. So can I go --
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1 MS. BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's all focus

2 here. Hang on Steve. Alison is going to go

3 through cell by cell; right?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes I am.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?

6 MR. STARR: Well -- so Louis Starr,

7 NEEA. You know if we are really -- what we're --

8 the end result of this sheet is really the last

9 two columns, V and W there. And so -- or well T

10 and W, whatever. So you have got the min and max

11 so you know I guess in my mind if you really want

12 to -- if I was looking at the max it would be

13 higher hours of operations as part of that. I

14 mean I know you've got two columns, one of USA and

15 EU or something.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

17 MR. STARR: And so one would have a

18 higher number of hours and one would have a lower

19 number of hours and that would create the bands of

20 mins and maxs rather than taking a conservative

21 estimate of the hours and then saying again that

22 is the min and the max.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So do you want to change

2 some of the EU estimates?

3 MR. STARR: How did this calculate or

4 what numbers did it feed into the max column?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: I -- so it is most of the

6 EU numbers are higher except for RSV and so that

7 one I switched. So the min is the EU and the max

8 is ours, but other ones typically --

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You have that for VT-S;

10 right?

11 MR. STARR: Well, what I was saying is

12 take the --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. STARR: -- column and double it.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: The EU column?

16 MR. STARR: And then the other one will

17 be the you know whatever the pump minimum numbers

18 are.

19 MR. WILLIAMS: Do you think doubling it

20 is a

21 --

22 MR. HUBER: Why do you want to double
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1 it?

2 MR. STARR: Well because --

3 MR. HUBER: I mean what justification do

4 you have Louis?

5 MR. STARR: The operational hours of a

6 partial office building and an industrial space it

7 is higher number of --the pumps are running when

8 it is there. Now if you cut the pumps, the number

9 of pumps in half and you provide two then that

10 provides half the number of hours; right. So

11 one's -- I mean -- I mean I certainly if it is

12 supposed to be a min and max, right, you've got to

13 -- what is the highest and what is the lowest --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Well I think it is

15 supposed to be min and max within what we feel is

16 a reasonable

17 --

18 MR. STARR: Reasonable.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- amount right?

20 MR. STARR: Okay.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: So --

22 MR. STARR: Okay. Well then that is
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1 probably we need to talk about that. So we are

2 going to say that the hours are the duplication of

3 --

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh right.

5 MR. STARR: -- reflected in the hours;

6 is that --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. It is not really

8 min and max, it is the minimum average and the

9 maximum average rates. So not like well there is

10 one pump somewhere that is on --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers?

12 MR. POWERS: Not taking the -- maybe we

13 aren't done with this but I am thinking that maybe

14 we should --

15 MR. STARR: Why don't we just leave what

16 we've got and go to lunch and come back.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: I am thinking maybe we

18 can get this printed and distributed during lunch.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Well I mean this --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: How many cells did you

21 revise?

22 MS. WILLIAMS: This is more cells than
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1 what is on the power point.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just read through

3 the cells right now. Go ahead Alison.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the inline

5 pumps --

6 MR. POWERS: Can you mark them in yellow

7 or something.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, can you see.

9 MR. POWERS: Can you yellow the field.

10 MR. HANDZEL: I have double suction went

11 to

12 2000.

13 MR. HUBER: Me too.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Yes that was 19 something.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Estimated hours of

16 operation is that, is that a J.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --

18 MR. POWERS: And you yellow the field,

19 you had a whole column there.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So those aren't on

21 there.

22 MR. ADIN: Over on the horsepower under
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1 DT it points --

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Okay.

3 MR. POWERS: And Alison when you print

4 this for us could you open it up so we have all

5 those fields too. Because you are limited to same

6 data; right.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Well I don't -- can we

8 just send out the spreadsheet later? I don't

9 think we are going to print this.

10 MR. POWERS: Yeah. That is fine.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

12 MR. POWERS: I have one question, too.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, please.

14 MR. POWERS: That we don't -- and I

15 don't know if this is the right proposal but I

16 heard earlier where we were talking about

17 different pumps or a lot of different

18 applications. I heard which is probably a fair

19 statement that in building application in a

20 building trades you know the pump would run X

21 right. But I don't think all these pumps only go

22 to building trades.
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1 MR. STARR: Right.

2 MR. POWERS: So I think to be fair we

3 don't want to overstate but as close as we can

4 because again we don't put companies out of

5 business for the wrong reasons; right? And there

6 are a lot of smaller guys out there that may think

7 as Al talked about earlier that aren't

8 participating as close as we would like them to.

9 So we talked earlier about Alison taking analysis

10 with consultants of trying to break down each of

11 these products which this is just a product and

12 you could have multiple markets and then you've

13 got to get into the application, you have got to

14 spin in 50% capacity, 100% capacity, all these

15 other factors.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.

17 MR. POWERS: Again it may end up with

18 the same result you have on the sheet; right. And

19 so be it. But to be fair to the people out there

20 and these people that have jobs and we don't mess

21 them up too much and the costs involved a better

22 understanding of the variables in the market I
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1 think would behoove all of us properly, then at

2 lunch and come back to make a decision.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah right. Lucas?

4 MR. ADIN: So just to reiterate. I mean

5 these are only for purpose of determining scope.

6 Like what we are going to consider.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I understand but that

8 decision could affect something.

9 MR. ADIN: It could depending on what we

10 decide based on a bunch more analysis we all still

11 get to do.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.

13 MR. ADIN: That will take colossal

14 time.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, so are you

16 suggesting we shouldn't read through these now?

17 MR. POWERS: No. We can. I am just

18 saying I don't want to come back from lunch or

19 something and make a decision on this stuff. In

20 my opinion maybe the group would think

21 differently. But I am -- that is my opinion.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Louis.
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1 MR. STARR: Maybe this will help. Maybe

2 these -- the absolute numbers don't matter and it

3 is the relative numbers, is that more -- because

4 then it doesn't really matter too much --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

6 MR. STARR: -- what the hours of

7 operation are as long as the relative hours of

8 operation are between the pumps. And so then

9 really all we are talking about is looking at

10 these, making decisions based off of the --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That is the -- that was

12 the thrust of the conversation at the last

13 meeting.

14 MR. STARR: Okay.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, you okay?

16 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I'm fine.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 [Laughter.]

19 MR. ADIN: Thanks for asking. I

20 appreciate it.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: The only time I know --

22 MR. ADIN: Generally okay.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- to see what we've got.

2 Meg.

3 MS. WALTNER: So this is to Alison. This

4 is Meg Waltner NRDC. So you mentioned you have

5 done different percent savings analysis too. I am

6 interested if you have anything that might be

7 close to max tech just so we could see what the

8 full range looked like. Or if not what the range

9 is above an MEI

10 40?

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I have MEI 90

12 numbers somewhere but the pump manufacturers would

13 probably kill us. I mean I have like every ten

14 percent. I don't know where --

15 MS. WALTNER: I guess I am interested in

16 seeing you know --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison read these

18 cells. You marked them all in yellow. These are

19 the cells that have changed.

20 MR. POWERS: Just have one question.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Chuck.

22 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. In the sheet
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1 that was handed out there was an estimated NEMA2 BIS numbers.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

4 MR. POWERS: That aren't on here which

5 is fine.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: They --

7 MR. POWERS: No they are not on the

8 screen, Alison.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry they are just

10 over here.

11 MR. POWERS: Okay. The question I have.

12 I think Al brought up earlier the 171 and the 50

13 you might want to mark in some color because I

14 thought I heard earlier Al mentioned those two are

15 maybe -- Greg did that they might be a little

16 high. Again I don't know I heard -- that is what

17 I heard over there; right? You were saying almost

18 50%.

19 MR. HUBER: Especially the in-line

20 looked a little high to us. But you know --

21 MR. POWERS: Okay. I am just -- didn't

22 know if that is something still questioned because
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1 that would affect this rate.

2 MR. HUBER: I think -- I think --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

4 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I think

5 probably we can take this information and go sit

6 down and see what we think about it with Chuck and

7 maybe come to some conclusion --

8 MR. POWERS: Sure.

9 MR. HUBER: -- on what we want to

10 support as it should.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, that's good. Okay.

12 Alison; cell by cell.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep. Okay. In-line

14 pumps we changed the estimated hours of operation

15 A from 3,000 to 2,000. Are you all writing this

16 down?

17 [Group response.]

18 MS. WILLIAMS: It doesn't look like it.

19 Just checking. Okay.

20 So that makes the annual energy use A

21 .56 instead of .84. And that makes the minimum

22 energy savings .01 instead of .02. Is everyone
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1 good with In- line?

2 Okay. So next is double suction;

3 changed the operating hours from 3,000 to 2,000;

4 that changes the energy use estimate from .7 to

5 .47 and that changes the energy savings from .006

6 to .004.

7 All right. The last one is vertical

8 turbine. We changed the shaft horsepower from 4

9 to 25. We changed hours of operation A from 1699

10 to 750 and we moved the 1699 to hours of operation

11 B. That changes energy use A from .02 to .06 and

12 the energy use B is .14. And it changes the

13 energy savings; in the first column the last digit

14 changes from zero to one; and the second column

15 the last digit changes from one to two.

16 And I have the totals here if anyone

17 wants to add those to their sheet.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Read the totals.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: So the total for energy

20 use A for Lot 11 is 4.92 and adding Lot 11 plus

21 adds .56. And the total for energy use B which is

22 only Lot 11 is 5.09. I guess I probably should
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1 add these other ones to it. Lot 11 plus adds .64.

2 Minimum energy savings is .07 for Lot 11

3 and an extra .004 for Lot 11 plus. And max is .24

4 and an extra .01.

5 MS. WALTNER: Alison could you unhide

6 the quads column there.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: I should note that the

8 quads column I am sure we would have a whole

9 argument about lifetime that we haven't had yet.

10 So - okay.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So now we are moving on

12 to the next slide which is slide 2 in the newly

13 copied packet. Manufacture, redesign and

14 conversion costs. Where did this data come from?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So I am going to let Dan

16 talk about this.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan get a seat up here.

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So now we

19 are moving on to circulators everyone knows. So

20 last time we were tasked to look at payback or at

21 least a preliminary payback on circulators. So to

22 do that we wanted to look at the --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.

2 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify we've moved

3 back to the slides in the first hand out we gave

4 you this morning. That is where these slides are

5 located.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Oh, I thought we were --

7 MR. ADIN: Sorry. The two additional

8 slides in that smaller handout are just updated

9 versions of some of the numbers we are going to

10 show you in a minute.

11 MR. HANDZEL: What number is that slide;

12 do you know?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: 11.

14 MR. ADIN: 11.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Thank you.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. So we are on

17 circulators and we are trying to look at a kind of

18 preliminary look at incremental costs. Last time

19 the costs we looked at were retail costs. And so

20 this is very preliminary compared to what we would

21 do on a full analysis. But just to give a little

22 introduction to how we looked at the costs. So
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1 one side of the cost is increased motor costs and

2 that would just be the cost to the manufacturer,

3 the being the cost of install.

4 So switching from permanent split

5 capacitor wet rotor to ECM would increase purchase

6 parts or labor costs depending on how they would

7 source those motors. And for everyone who is not

8 on the manufacturing side these motors are either

9 manufactured in house or built to spec. They are

10 not off the shelf motors. They are not going to

11 be sourced in bulk. They are either going to have

12 a design, send it out, have it made or make it in13 house for these types of wet rotor motors.

14 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. May I

15 ask a question?

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: Are these products

18 categorically all permanent split capacitor motors

19 or are some of them simply induction motors? Or

20 simply split-phase?

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: So the vast majority --

22 this is to the circulator market, the vast
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1 majority of the circulator market is a wet rotor

2 circulator which is a permanent split capacitor

3 wet rotor. There is a percentage that are not wet

4 rotors. They are very much like a small in-line

5 pump with a separately coupled motor and those

6 would be more off the shelf a/c induction motors

7 that are smaller. Any of the manufacturers can

8 comment on this.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Could you estimate the

10 percentage Dan?

11 MR. WEINTRAUB: We didn't receive enough

12 breakdown in data to get that percentage but it's

13 -- the vast majority--

14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I would

15 like to ask the manufacturers if their motors are

16 categorically permanent split capacitor motors in

17 this class of equipment?

18 MR. HANDZEL: Want to answer.

19 MR. BARBOUR: Go for it.

20 MR. HANDZEL: Well this is Mark from

21 Xylem. So Gary I think as you saw two meetings ago

22 when I did the little session on circulators the
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1 majority of us; all the circulator guys, not all

2 but the majority of us sell wet rotors, dry rotors

3 in what we call three piece which is the

4 separately coupled products. Okay. So you know I

5 would say today the majority of the market is in

6 the wet rotor business. Okay. That is where the

7 market is.

8 MR. FERNSTOM: So I am not asking about

9 the rotor. I am asking about whether these are

10 permanent split capacitor or induction motors?

11 MR. HANDZEL: In the wet rotors they are

12 permanently split capacitors as Dan says.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

14 MR. HANDZEL: Bob if you want to add

15 anything different go ahead.

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: And to put into

17 perspective I don't remember the exact numbers, I

18 can look them up, but I believe it was about 90%

19 of the total shipments under three horsepower were

20 under one quarter horsepower so 90 percent of

21 those shipments. And the vast majority of those

22 under one quarter horsepower pumps are these small
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1 integrated permanent split capacitor pumps.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks Dan.

4 MR. WEINTRAUB: So going back to our

5 overview here. So when we are looking at costs of

6 permanent split capacitor wet rotor motor so there

7 is no publically available data here. You can't

8 go to a catalog and look for these pumps. So for

9 this exercise we've looked at both off the shelf

10 data that was looked at in other rule makings and

11 we also surveyed the manufacturers and we were

12 able to get data from all major manufacturers of

13 circulators and put together some estimates.

14 If we were to do a full rule making and

15 were to have the time required for this we could

16 reverse engineer these motors and do a tear-down

17 and try to build the cost up from the bottom to

18 see -- to come up with an estimate which is

19 similar to what is done on many other rules and

20 has been done for motors in the past.

21 On the other side when you get away from

22 motor costs we are also looking at increase
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1 manufacturer markup to cover redesigning

2 conversion costs. So in a full analysis there

3 would be a lot of economic factors that come into

4 play. In this back of the envelop analysis we

5 have aggregated what the manufacturers have

6 submitted as their conversions costs that would be

7 necessary to turn over to ECM motors for the

8 industry and we are going to look at what would be

9 necessary -- what type of markup would be

10 necessary to recoup that cost over x number of

11 years. There are a lot of factors that could come

12 into play to change that but we are just looking

13 at a first basic assumption to try and gage where

14 these costs are sitting.

15 So now looking at incremental costs on

16 motors. So and we are starting with data that was

17 used in a recently released analysis with

18 commercial refrigeration equipment. And that rule

19 looked at off the shelf PSC motors and off the

20 shelf ECM. And it looked at it from shaft

21 horsepowers ranging from six to 16 watts. Putting

22 in perspective for us a small one quarter
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1 horsepower circulator pump requires 29 --

2 approximately 29.8 watts of shaft power. I am

3 sorry 1/25th horsepower. Thank you. Correction

4 there. Correction 1/25th horsepower.

5 So that is above the range that was

6 looked up. We are going to look to extrapolate

7 that. So also putting in perspective a PSC motor

8 would be approximately 90 watts of draw. And an

9 ECM motor of the same shaft horsepower would be

10 approximately 45 watts of draw.

11 So looking at what we got out of this

12 CRE cost curve, that is the curve that we have

13 down on the right, we can extrapolate both of

14 those. They are fairly linear. So we felt

15 comfortable extrapolating out to the proper shaft

16 horsepower or shaft wattage of approximately 30

17 watts. You see the PSC off the shelf would cost

18 about $15.77 and an ECM costs off the shelf

19 approximately $30.87. The ratio of cost we found

20 at that size was two to one. So you doubled your

21 cost to go to an ECM based on the public data that

22 is available for off the shelf motors.
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1 Now next is where our survey came into

2 play. We were able to survey -- we were able to

3 get the baseline cost of a PSC motor that is three

4 speed and wet rotor. So something that is

5 commonly used in circulators today at 1/25th

6 horsepower. And that shipments weighted average

7 cost was $29.50. So almost double the cost of the

8 off the shelf motor. So if we are going to say --

9 if we are going to make the assumption, this is an

10 assumption because we don't have true data yet on

11 the conversion cost -- on how much it would cost,

12 the incremental cost would go up to ECM. But if

13 we use that 2.0 ratio that we saw for off the

14 shelf motors we would see that the incremental

15 cost of going to ECM would be about $29.50. So

16 this is what our analysis is showing right now;

17 and again all preliminary; that is where we are

18 right now in looking at $29.50 manufacturers cost

19 before markups to get up to an ECM motor.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: That was well presented.

21 Now let's take comments on those two slides.

22 Comments here. Charlie Cappellino. Or questions.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: The cost here is this

2 manufacturer's cost or cost to consumer?

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: This is manufacturer's

4 cost.

5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Manufacturers.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: So this is the cost to

7 either produce in-house or purchase from a

8 supplier before markups.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Mark Handzel.

10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. So

11 Dan the commercial refrigeration equipment study

12 that you looked at --

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.

14 MR. HANDZEL: -- can you comment on

15 where the ECM motors that they were using in the

16 commercial refrigeration equipment were coming

17 from? Were those being custom manufactured by the

18 manufacturer or were those produced by --

19 MR. WEINTRAUB: So those are off the

20 shelf. Yes they are off the shelf motors. I think

21 they were going into blower applications and so

22 both the PSC and the ECM were off the shelf. So
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1 we understand the cost is less because they are

2 off the shelf. But we were just looking at the

3 ratio which we would like to think to go from a

4 PSC off the shelf to an ECM off the shelf is -- it

5 is a ratio of added materials, added labor, added

6 overhead. We would like to think that ratio could

7 theoretically hold going to a custom product.

8 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel again. The

9 only thing I would comment back would be that

10 obviously if they are commercially off the shelf

11 they are high volume produced --

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.

13 MR. HANDZEL: -- motors that you know

14 there is a tremendous volume that transfers into

15 an economy of scale to manufacture and they can

16 afford to sell those at a lower price where a

17 circulator pump motor would be a little bit

18 different situation. So I would just suggest that

19 you need to factor that in somehow into your

20 estimate. And I don't know if you have ever seen

21 a study that does that kind of thing. And as you

22 know we've conversed a lot about motor costs and
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1 things like that because we're in the process of

2 developing an ECM platform.

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.

4 MR. HANDZEL: And I would just tell you

5 that the motor costs themselves are staggering to

6 us.

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. And where we are

8 looking -- where we believe it has been factored

9 in in the preliminary look is going from $15.77 up

10 to $29.50 I think the scale is already there that

11 your cost has doubled because your scale is lower.

12 And then the ECM cost has double also. So but

13 again more detail can be put into a real analysis.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions and

15 comments?

16 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. I

17 am not sure if we gave you any feedback as far as

18 what we might have seen in the way of ECM motor

19 costs versus the traditional circulator motor

20 costs.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: I can't comment based on

22 our conversations.
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1 MR. BARBOUR: I need to check over and

2 confirm these numbers --

3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

4 MR. BARBOUR: -- because I am not

5 comfortable right now commenting on that.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: So what we are saying is

7 the cost of ECM is not related to any

8 manufacturing data.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: The only manufacturer

11 source data here was -- is the PSC wet rotor cost

12 of $29.50 which is a shipment's weighted average

13 based on inputs from manufacturers who gave me

14 permission to aggregate and distribute. The ECM

15 is an estimate of basically applying and doubling

16 the cost based on what we saw in CRE. We would

17 love to have manufacturing input on shifting up to

18 ECM. If we are able to get enough data to

19 aggregate release but we don't have that at this

20 time.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So are you going to, Dan

22 --
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So the other

2 half of the equation is conversion costs. So like

3 I said --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is the new slide;

5 right?

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: No it's the same.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: 11.

8 MR. HANDZEL: It is different.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Slide 13.

10 [Group discussions]

11 MR. BROOKMAN: New slide 2.

12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Oh the new one. So again

13 focusing down on these less than the one quarter

14 horsepower we surveyed manufacturers on what they

15 believe their conversion costs would be if they

16 were to shift over to all ECM production by about

17 2020. Aggregating district conversion cost $39

18 million approximately looking at annual shipments

19 of approximately 1.5 million. Right now we put in

20 an estimated payback period of four years. So

21 this is just to look at how long we would want to

22 get your money back. Of course the market will
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1 determine how much they can get back in the

2 timeframe. But this is an initial look. So you

3 multiply those shipments times 4, you divide that

4 total shipments by the total cost and it comes out

5 to an incremental cost per shipment of $6.50.

6 All right. Bringing it all together.

7 Now we are looking at the incremental cost to the

8 consumer. So we had our incremental cost on the

9 motor of $29.50; right now we have an estimated

10 manufacture markup of 1.35, this will be done in

11 more detail in a full analysis, preliminary

12 distribution markup of 1.55 and working that out

13 you get the cost to consumer for the motor goes up

14 to $61.73.

15 On the other side you have your

16 conversion costs $6.50 per unit. There is no

17 manufacturer markup because this isn't a cost of

18 goods sold, this is already in the markup that is

19 being applied to it but that cost goes out through

20 distribution at 1.55. It brings you to $10.08.

21 And the total incremental cost to consumer of

22 $71.81 is what this rolls up to which will feed
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1 into the payback.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock EEI.

3 And those markups that you are showing that was

4 for other consumer products not for commercial,

5 like a commercial refrigeration product? That was

6 like --

7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Good question. So this

8 markup right now 1.35 is preliminary based on

9 manufacturer interviews and aggregated data of the

10 pump industry.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But for these types of

12 pumps.

13 MR. WEINTRAUB: And I can't -- so what

14 we will say is preliminary about this is that we

15 did not focus on circulators in --

16 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah that is what I was

17 going to say --

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- particular. Yeah.

19 And we understand.

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Overall. It is just

21 overall.

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: And it was just a
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1 discussion. No it was mostly for the larger pump

2 products was the 1.35. So we would go back and

3 focus

4 --

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha.

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- on the circulators to

7 come up with the markups that we would see in that

8 side of the industry. Again that places us back

9 to the circulator industry is very different from

10 the rest of the pump industry.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from

12 manufacturers about this markup number considering

13 that we are talking about circulators now.

14 MR. HANDZEL: We can't discuss --

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, they can't -- they

16 can't discuss that.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: But yeah again

19 preliminary numbers. If we were to dive into

20 circulators we would dive into circulator markups.

21 But we did not get there.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.
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1 MR. POWERS: The -- I think the work you

2 are doing is good. The question I would have is

3 I'm involved in quite a bit of like some of us the

4 payback on the previous --

5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.

6 MR. POWERS: I know what our company

7 will consider four years is too long.

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.

9 MR. POWERS: Right. And if you have

10 something that you are going to develop but you've

11 got some work you are going to do the ROI, you

12 know, stockholders are going to look for something

13 a little sooner than that. Do you know what I

14 mean?

15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

16 MR. POWERS: So it is just something to

17 think about.

18 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

19 MR. POWERS: I don't know what some of

20 the other companies are thinking but you know if

21 the average is two to three, it is tough to get

22 less than three because Charlie and I were just
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1 kicking around because then she was my friend she

2 was going to -- going to BS their way through some

3 sales number to say oh we'll do better than that,

4 don't worry. And this will justify it. Well that

5 --

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

7 MR. POWERS: -- doesn't work because the

8 payback has still got to be there right.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.

10 MR. POWERS: So it is just something to

11 think about. It would be interesting if you also

12 play with this from my perspective again it is up

13 to these guys in circulators but what would it be

14 at three years.

15 MR WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.

16 MR. POWERS: What would it be at five

17 year. What would it be at two years. Because

18 companies, corporations the board they are going

19 to look at that. That is a big number.

20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. And those are

21 obviously -- that form was just preliminary --

22 MR. POWERS: Sure. Sure. Just to give
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1 you an idea. But as we go through it.

2 MR. WEINTRAUB: And if we are looking

3 frankly at how this would impact this if we were

4 to put a four there that number would go up by one

5 quarter and you would get up to about $7 -- $8. It

6 is not going to be a huge difference right now

7 with the way we are looking at with the

8 assumptions in place. But we would obviously look

9 at different scenarios. Only a few dollars on that

10 71 --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So in this evaluation you

12 are saying that the total cost to consumer going

13 into a store and buying one of these or whatever

14 is $71 additional to what they are paying now per

15 unit?

16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes for a 1/25th

17 horsepower pump. And again this is without taking

18 into effect market forces which will drive the

19 eventual costs. This is just saying if they were

20 to price where they might want to price.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So what is the price of

22 the unit they are paying now?
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1 MR. WEINTRAUB: This is only looking at

2 incremental right now because we don't have the

3 data on the baseline.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So the point is if it is

5 $71 a unit now, I'm just saying --

6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: We are doubling that?

8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Where you know if it's --

10 MR. WEINTRAUB: If we are saying motor

11 cost is driving the total cost which is it a

12 significant portion of the total cost. Then if

13 motor cost is the majority. We are saying motor

14 costs doubles, then in effect you are saying the

15 total cost doubles.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I have two

18 points. In that last comparison I think we were

19 comparing apples to oranges. So what you

20 presented was what you estimated the incremental

21 cost might be not subject to market forces. That

22 is to say if manufacturers were allowed to charge
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1 what they think is appropriate. However the

2 current price is subject to market forces that we

3 pay in the market. So to say the price would

4 double I don't think is necessarily fair because

5 we are using a baseline price which is subject to

6 market forces and this increment estimate which is

7 not.

8 The second point I would like to make is

9 a question of the manufacturers. I understand you

10 can't discuss price. However my question is this.

11 If you are selling a product in larger volume that

12 is more commoditized would in general it be not

13 correct that the margin, the manufacturer's markup

14 would be lower? It seems to me the more

15 commoditized higher volume product would in

16 general have a lower markup than the smaller

17 volume less commoditized more specialized

18 products. Is that a fair statement about business

19 economics?

20 MR. HANDZEL: Gary, this is Mark. I am

21 still, I am not comfortable answering so I am

22 sorry I can't answer that.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. I

2 will just add that you know when we are looking at

3 payback we still have the incremental motor costs

4 provided by the manufacturers and we have a little

5 bit of range of stuff to look at. So understood

6 that we don't have all the answers right now. You

7 know Dan has I think put together a very good

8 estimate based on what we have available to us

9 today. And obviously if we decide to go forward

10 with circulators then that will be adjusted. But

11 --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So Dan you'll have a

13 final slide --

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be slide 4?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary with maybe

18 one more point. My observation would be this

19 seems to line up with the difference in cost in

20 the market between these two types of products now

21 such that they are available.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So one of the

2 other things we updated for circulators or

3 provided more of a range for is operating hours.

4 So I just have this table right here. We did a

5 little bit more thorough literature review to try

6 to find what is out there.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Where is it?

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Is it in your original

9 packet?

10 MR. ADIN: Slide 10 in the original.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I want this

12 slide.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Slide 10 in the original

14 packet.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So okay so pretty much

16 the HI's estimate seems to be about the minimum

17 that is out there. Again the data that is out

18 there and the literature does not seem to be very

19 much based on actual implementation it is sort of

20 people's guesses. So I just want to clear that up

21 that none of these data are super reliable. On

22 the max end for hydronic heating we found about
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1 3000 hours and for potable water recirc the 7300

2 is a CA IOUs estimate which is based on 50%

3 constant load, 50% on controls operating 16 hours

4 a day. So the -- or something in the middle of

5 what we found for potable water research is 5475

6 which is also based on 50% constant but they have

7 50% on controls operating only six hours a day.

8 And we got an estimate for hydronic heating of

9 about 2520. So actually -- so I just wanted to

10 show this is the range of hours that we found in

11 the literature. I actually have another

12 spreadsheet for circulators.

13 So slide 4 in your new packet will look

14 at next. I am going to pull up --

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Alison this is Gary. Can

16 I make a comment about the last slide you showed?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: I think it would be

19 useful if we could try and differentiate this

20 between residential, small commercial and medium

21 sized commercial applications because I think the

22 hydronic heating and potable water circulation
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1 hours in medium sized commercial applications

2 would be higher. I am thinking about hotels,

3 motels, commercial office buildings and equipment

4 larger than a quarter horsepower.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So we've only really been

6 looking -- I mean the estimates we have for motor

7 costs are all less than a quarter horsepower. So

8 that is what is in this table is all -- maybe it

9 is not on here. The table is less than a quarter

10 horsepower. I apologize. Slide 4 in your new

11 packet.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. We asked

13 the question about circulators you know going up

14 to two and three horsepower; so it was basically

15 below a quarter horsepower and above a quarter

16 horsepower. Now there doesn't seem to be any

17 estimate for equipment --

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So I actually have it in

19 the spreadsheet. We don't have incremental motor

20 costs for it for -- there is no payback and there

21 -- I don't have a differentiation between

22 operating hours of residential and commercial at
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1 this time. I assume most of the commercial is in

2 a quarter to three and I

3 --

4 MR. POWERS: Our sheets don't match this

5 by the way.

6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes I was just going to

7 say that is the spreadsheet. We don't have the

8 same slide.

9 MR. POWERS: We don't the same slide.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

11 MR. POWERS: We don't have the horse

12 powers at the top. We are missing some of the

13 data.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So you have just this.

15 MR. POWERS: No we don't have any -- it

16 doesn't tell us horsepower.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Because it is all the one

18 quarter

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Sorry but it is all

20 -- you have the slate clean --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: It doesn't match.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: You are right.
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1 MR. POWERS: No we don't have the --

2 This says 10.l years.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: You are right.

4 The 10.1 must not be correct. I

5 apologize.

6 MR. BARBOUR: How do we know?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Because this is

8 calculated in my spreadsheet. So it should be 9.6

9 and 6.6. I must have made -- I am sorry. I must

10 have made an edit in the calculator and not pulled

11 it into the spreadsheet.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. On the slide?

13 MS. WILLIAMS: On the slide, sorry.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Tell us what the figure

15 should be where?

16 MS. WILLIAMS: It looks like the first

17 column the payback should be 9.6 and the second

18 column should be 6.6. So again I apologize. We

19 were just making updates on these and I failed to

20 update the slide properly.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Did everybody get that?

22 That is the payback years changes column 1 9.6 and
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1 column 2

2 6.6.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So it looks -- so

4 everything else looks the same. And so I did a

5 spreadsheet so we can play with things if we want

6 to but basically I have four scenarios.

7 The first one -- oh the other thing we

8 also got down here that is also on your sheet is

9 also the percentage of shipments that are potable

10 water recirc versus the percentage that are

11 hydronic heating. It looks like about 22% are

12 potable water. This is based on casing material

13 and NSF certification.

14 So in the -- I have also differentiated

15 the operating hours by application. And so right

16 now in the spreadsheet I am looking at two

17 scenarios. The minimum and the sort of middle

18 range scenarios. So we could also plug in the

19 higher range scenario if we want to.

20 And then we are looking at two scenarios

21 of motor costs. The one that the manufacturers

22 provided us last week which was 112.50 and the one
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1 that Dan just shared with us now which is the

2 71.81. So basically between these two different

3 motor costs and these two different operating hour

4 assumptions we have four different payback periods

5 ranging from 9.6 down to 4.2.

6 MR. POWERS: So I have a dumb question.

7 Just try to help me out. So the lifetime for

8 trial one is ten years and you use the same all

9 the way across but the payback is almost ten

10 years.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep. For the first one.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour?

13 MR. BARBOUR: Can you tell me where the

14 ten years came from?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: The ten years is sort of

16 an estimate from discussions with manufacturers.

17 We could -- you mean the lifetime or the --

18 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah, the lifetime ten

19 years.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So the only thing the

21 lifetime is actually used for is these quads

22 estimates. The payback -- I mean we can look at
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1 the payback relative to lifetime. But I am happy

2 -- you know last time we started out with five, we

3 adjusted it to seven to ten, we heard from some

4 manufacturers that probably ten is more like it.

5 So that is what we are using right now. But we

6 can open up that discussion again.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: We should keep going.

8 MR. BARBOUR: I just question whether or

9 not you can support the ten years. I mean we -- I

10 can only speak for the testing that we've done on

11 some ECM

12 --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

14 MR. BARBOUR: -- style circulators in

15 U.S.

16 systems. And U.S. systems not being the

17 clean water that you might see in other locations

18 where ECMs are used and we are not seeing ten year

19 lives.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. And that is why

21 we had five to start with. But it seemed like we

22 got feedback that it should be higher. So yes, I
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1 don't know that anybody has data to support this

2 because most of the manufacturers have just rolled

3 out ECMs in the U.S. pretty recently. And so it

4 is hard to know what the lifetimes are.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. I kind of

7 looked at this chart. Essentially what this chart

8 is showing you that if you use increment cost of

9 $112 on the motor and you use low hours you get

10 ten years. If you use a little bit higher hours

11 you get 6.9. Then if you use an increment cost of

12 $71 and use the low hours you get 6.2 year payback

13 and if you use the higher number of hours you get

14 4.2 year payback. So what it is really doing is

15 just giving us a range of years over there

16 anywhere from 10.1 at worst case scenario to 4.2

17 at the best case scenario. It is --

18 MR. POWERS: And that was the point --

19 this is Chuck Powers -- and that was the point I

20 was trying to make because if it is ten years life

21 and I am not a circulator now, I am just talking

22 business practice if it is a ten year life and the
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1 payback is ten years very few people are going to

2 -- companies are going to survive over that. If

3 it is ten year life and 6.2 payback it will be

4 questionable. The other thing on a business

5 practice is if Lucas comes back to us and says you

6 have to be cognizant and in compliance within five

7 years, then anything with a payback of five years

8 or greater even close to that will be a problem

9 for us.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: This is payback to

11 consumers.

12 MR. POWERS: I know but the same thing

13 would also apply to us, the cost involved with

14 developing the equipment because I think the

15 previous chart was showing some in our

16 calculations how many years it is going to be to

17 pay back to make up that incremental cost to

18 develop the stuff; right? So you have to look at

19 kind of both, the consumers --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: They are two different

21 things. I just want to make sure.

22 MR. POWERS: But they are very very
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1 heavily weighted on consumers as well as the

2 manufacturers whether they survive in this or go

3 off shore with it and close plants down and make

4 those decisions; right. I think most companies

5 will stay in the business; it is whether we have

6 manufacturing in the U.S. any more or not like

7 we've done to the motor manufacturing, right. So

8 that is just a concern.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Gary

10 Fernstrom?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I

12 would like to make two points. I don't think it

13 is a foregone conclusion that a rule affecting

14 circulators would necessarily become effective in

15 five years. I think there is some room for

16 negotiation there in order to give U.S.

17 manufacturers an opportunity to adapt to

18 this.

19 And the second thing is we continue to

20 use a savings estimate for the ECM motor at

21 constant full load. And these motors are

22 adjustable. And I'd have to believe that if a
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1 feature were available to adjust the speed to take

2 advantage of additional savings it would be

3 utilized. So the full speed, full speed does not

4 seem to me to be the appropriate comparison. It

5 would seem to me that it would be full speed to

6 some slightly reduced speed.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So Gary thanks for

8 bringing that up. I have -- we did a calculation

9 of running ECM at 80% speed compared to a A/C

10 induction full speed that is 73% savings. So if I

11 plug that in you get a payback period range from

12 5.9 to 2.6.

13 MR. FERNSTROM: Well I think -- I think

14 for the group's benefit we ought to take - have

15 that scenario available for consideration.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman?

17 MR. ECKMAN: Yes I think we are getting

18 a little ahead of ourselves on the economics since

19 we don't have a comparative economic on Lot 11 and

20 Lot 11 plus so I'd rather not focus on that

21 necessarily at this point in time. We will find

22 out whether there are economic opportunities when
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1 we do a more thorough analysis. So right now it is

2 sort of back of the envelope. The other back of

3 the envelope number that is pretty striking to me

4 however is line 12 and line 11 up there which is

5 the quads and the terawatt-hours worth of

6 potential savings. If you look at those numbers

7 relative to what is in Lot 11, they are pretty

8 striking.

9 MR. HANDZEL: Those are over 30 years.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: I said that in line 10

11 the terawatt hour savings is just a single year of

12 savings.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: So that compares to

15 what's in slide 1 of the updated packet. So --

16 MR. ECKMAN: Those start with the

17 numbers right after the decimal.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so if you add up

19 the Lot 11 where -- let me switch to this real

20 quick. So if we sum the Lot 11 ones it is .07 to

21 .24. And my scenarios for circulators are .15 to

22 .22.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: This is important. So I

2 want you to restate Alison and show us on the

3 slide. This is the previous slide and I know it

4 is at the bottom there.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so for --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: The sum --

7 MS. WILLIAMS: The sum of the Lot 11

8 comes - only the energy savings range is .07 to

9 .24, annual terawatt hours from a single year

10 shipments, and for circulators it is -- we are

11 estimating it currently at .15 to .22 for constant

12 speed full load. So they are comparable numbers

13 if you look at them as a whole. And that --- and

14 so that is something to emphasize like the reason

15 we would compare it to Lot 11 together as opposed

16 to a single equipment class is because the burden

17 of us doing the analyses is similar. You know all

18 the Lot 11 pumps plus others doesn't really matter

19 how many we do. You know that is the quad -- or

20 that is the terawatt hours we could potentially

21 get from that group; and whereas the circulators

22 savings will be a net incremental analytical
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1 burden to get those.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't understand that

3 last statement. Do you want to explain that to me

4 Louis?

5 MR. STARR: Well my take on what she was

6 saying is that it would provide justification for

7 second rulemaking on circulators separately

8 because the amount of energy savings available of

9 Lot 11 is similar in quantity available in

10 circulators --

11 MR. ECKMAN: By themselves.

12 MR. STARR: -- by themselves. So the

13 justification making a rule making on Lot 11 is

14 the same amount of energy savings available for

15 circulators. So I -- I don't know if that is the

16 point or not but --

17 MR BROOKMAN: That is your

18 interpretation.

19 MR. STARR: That is my interpretation.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

21 Certainly one.

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
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1 You show a percent saving from the ECM. What kind

2 of range are you seeing out in the marketplace at

3 constant full load? What is a range of savings?

4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean it is pretty much

5 like 40% to 50% I would say --

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 40% TO 50%.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: -- for the -- these are

8 the small circulators --

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The small ones.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- the range gets lower

11 the higher the horsepower.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Are you saying between

13 one quarter and three horsepower how much lower

14 does it get?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: I think we are estimating

16 like 22% or 25% for those.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That is very

19 helpful. Thank you. Chuck --

20 Hey folks in a little bit we are going

21 to pause for lunch. We need to figure out a

22 little bit what we are doing before we go to
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1 lunch. So let's stay focused right now.

2 Chuck Powers.

3 MR. POWERS: Yeah. Chuck Powers at

4 Flowserve. So an observation which is interesting

5 that you brought up that is good is that if you've

6 got 1.5 million units at a quarter horsepower and

7 all Lot 11 depending which number you use 300,000

8 to 400,000 up to two hundred horsepower then the

9 math probably looks about right because equally

10 they are the same savings as a group; right.

11 MR. ECKMAN: It is just a lot of mass.

12 MR. POWERS: It is just a matter of how

13 you want to play it and how you want to look at

14 it; right. So you've got -- so it is all relative

15 how we make our decisions and what makes the most

16 sense when you stand back and look at the total

17 deal; right.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: And the big difference

19 also right is that we are looking at ECMs for

20 circulators which is a much higher percentage

21 savings than just looking at hydraulic efficiency

22 improvement for the other products.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: It is a 1% to 2% or 3% on

2 the pump.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

4 MR. ECKMAM: And a 50% on the motor.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.

6 MR. ECKMAN: You don't have to have

7 near as many to make --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for those

9 additional comments. That is helpful. Now to

10 Gary Fernstrom.

11 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'd like to thank

12 LBNL and Navigant and the Hydraulics Institute.

13 The first two for the additional analysis and HI

14 for some additional market information I believe

15 they brought to the table. It gives us a much

16 better look at circulators. Yes I think we are a

17 little ahead of the game in trying to predict how

18 the economic analysis is going to look but in

19 trying to decide whether to include those in this

20 rule making or a future one I think it is

21 important to have some insight into that even

22 though it is not precise yet.
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1 And one last thought there are two steps

2 of energy savings opportunity associated with

3 these circulators. One is simply going from the

4 induction motor to the ECM motor. The other is

5 incorporation of the value of controls, and

6 manufacturers have pointed out that there is a lot

7 of value associated with controls. I agree. I

8 think it is going to take us a couple of years to

9 work together to figure out how to do that

10 correctly because the Europeans do it one way and

11 other methods have been suggested for the U.S.

12 market. So if we put this off to a

13 second rulemaking I want to work to get to the end

14 game and to include the benefit of controls. I

15 think it would take a couple of years to do that

16 plus the time then to conduct the rule making and

17 the time to have it effective. So my estimate is

18 we'd be looking out probably eight to ten years.

19 On the other hand if we can get ECM motors alone

20 in this rule making we might get that to actually

21 be implemented in an eight year time frame which

22 would give manufacturers enough time to adjust to
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1 that.

2 And in the meantime we can be looking at

3 how to capture the savings that controls offer

4 correctly, get that right. And do that the next

5 time around.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

7 MR. STARR: Another alternative to that

8 is perhaps right after this rule making roll in a

9 negotiated rulemaking on circulators and then skip

10 the eight to ten years maybe something less than

11 that. And so I don't know if that is a possibility

12 or not.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: I would offer if that as

14 someone who has conducted hundreds of negotiations

15 over the span of 25 years and dealt with many

16 negotiations and rule making groups and who has

17 dealt with many negotiating groups such as this, a

18 group like this that has a significant amount of

19 experience when they do hit the ground they hit it

20 running if they reconvene to take up another task.

21 You know your productivity rate is

22 greater immediately and you reach the finish line
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1 faster in my experience. Just as a process note

2 that that is something you might anticipate should

3 you choose to have a second rule making followed

4 on with this group or some like group to take up

5 circulator pumps.

6 Gary?

7 MR. FERNSTROM: So one more thought. If

8 it turns out we do put this off until the second

9 rule making I'd like to throw out the idea that we

10 include swimming pool pumps because I continued to

11 be miffed that DOE has preempted the states that

12 have swimming pool pump regulations and it would

13 be a good opportunity to adopt this federally.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: And so I am glad you

15 inserted that one more time.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: I continued to be

17 miffed.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Not the miffed part but

19 the content part, the scope part.

20 Bob?

21 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. I

22 think I have already gone on record at earlier
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1 meetings saying that I would be in agreement with

2 foregoing for a second rule making. That has been

3 discussed back in my company and I know that that

4 would still be supported. I don't know how the

5 rest of the -- I believe all the rest of the HI's

6 in the room would agree with that. I am not sure

7 -- I haven't spoken to Greg about it. So I am not

8 sure how Greg would feel about that from Grundfos

9 perspective but I just want to go on recording

10 saying we would support that.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

12 MR. BARBOUR: To help shorten the

13 timeframe to get this moving.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Meg. And I am not -

15 - I am going to suggest that we go to lunch, give

16 the caucuses time to talk this thing over before

17 we go any further toward actually voting on this

18 at this time.

19 Meg, please?

20 MS. WALTNER: Yes, so one thing that I

21 am having trouble understanding in all this is

22 what the incremental effort difference is between
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1 going to the manufacturers and asking about Lot 11

2 and circulators now versus doing that all twice

3 and having this group meet in two separate rule

4 makings. It seems to me without knowing enough

5 maybe about your process that having two separate

6 processes would actually be a greater effort

7 overall and for all of us. So maybe something

8 that you guys can comment on.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean so I think --

10 you can jump in -- the two biggest differences we

11 see are going to be the engineering analysis and

12 the LCC because engineering will be covering

13 motors instead of hydraulic efficiency. It is a

14 completely different analysis essentially;

15 different design options and all that. So while

16 we've already conducted the manufacturer

17 interviews and have all sorts of detail analysis

18 are basically ready to go essentially --

19 MS. WALTNER: On most types.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: -- with -- for Lot 11

21 pumps.

22 MR BROOKMAN: Lot 11 plus.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah that is

2 pretty much already done whereas the engineering

3 analysis for the different motors stuff for

4 circulators is not done yet. Another thing is

5 that the LCC is already pretty much set up for Lot

6 11 and Lot 11 plus pumps and because the

7 engineering analysis is different and the market

8 is different we would probably have to

9 significantly modify the existing LCC model to

10 handle that. So we think we are in good shape to

11 actually present probably engineering and LCC for

12 next meeting for Lot 11 and Lot 11 plus pumps.

13 Plus if we vote things out today we would not be

14 in a position to do that for circulators for some

15 unknown additional time period.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?

17 MR. WEINTRAUB: I am going to -- Dan

18 Weintraub just add to this more things that need

19 to be done. So manufacturing impact analysis is

20 significantly different for a commoditized product

21 such as circulators versus the rest of the pumps.

22 We have a good handle on the impact for Lot 11
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1 plus but for circulators we are going to have to

2 dive deep into that because we have a small

3 population of manufacturers that are producing

4 commoditized products that are just completely

5 different so we'd have to really understand those

6 costs which we just have not done yet. All we've

7 done is touch the surface by collecting data.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So yeah. Go ahead. Greg

9 is next.

10 MR. CASE: On the Lot 11 plus I'd like to

11 note that those weren't really asked about during

12 your interviews and the cost to improve the double

13 suction designs would be significantly higher than

14 the Lot 11 that we did talk about.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: The manufacturer

16 interviews included all Lot 11 and Lot 11 plus

17 proposed pump types.

18 MR. CASE: Double suction pumps.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Not everybody -- not

20 everybody answered everything.

21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Not everybody chose --

22 Dan Weintraub. Not everybody chose to discuss
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1 them but we looked to discuss all proposed in the

2 framework.

3 MR. CASE: Okay. There are significant

4 cost differences --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: We understand.

6 MR. CASE: -- for double suction pump

7 design and patterns, tooling et cetera --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.

9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.

10 MR. CASE: -- that are much different

11 than Lot 11. Okay.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?

13 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary for the

14 California Investor Owned Utilities. I'd just

15 like to make the observation that I don't think we

16 are going to learn a lot more about circulators.

17 Everybody has come to the table with I believe the

18 best information that we can get on the market,

19 the shipments, the incremental cost, and the

20 performance which PG&E has extensively

21 investigated. Our lab results are NIST traceable

22 and it would seem to me that the Department of
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1 Energy might not need to replicate them in order

2 to get the same answer. They might find them

3 sufficient to rely on. And as I understand it the

4 rule is supposed to come out by the end of this

5 year. So it doesn't seem to me unreasonable that

6 these analyses ought to be able to be done if

7 there is the will to pursue this. Certainly we've

8 established that the energy savings relative to

9 other parts of this rule making are significant.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other

11 comments here. Lucas?

12 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify. So Gary is

13 correct in that the goal was to have the NOPR

14 published by the end of the year. But to do that

15 we have to have a term sheet by July. So all the

16 analysis would have to be complete and decisions

17 made on standards levels by -- well before that

18 time. So that is in part you know some of the

19 consideration that we are taking into account with

20 respect to the feasibility of doing this.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Weintraub?

22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub. I'll
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1 also respond to Gary. So what we proposed -- what

2 we've shown for incremental cost is an estimate

3 for one type of product within this class that we

4 are looking at. To do a full analysis we have to

5 analyze all the different types of products that

6 are in here that is only one of them especially

7 when we are looking at larger pumps which are

8 going to have different economics. And ideally we

9 would like to do a reverse engineering tear-down

10 cost model on this because the known costs of ECM

11 right now within this market are really not there

12 especially when we are looking at scaling up to a

13 full economy of scale. So it is only a very --

14 we've only touched the surface when it comes to

15 incremental cost is what it comes down to.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna?

17 MS. MAUER: Dan or Alison can you give

18 us some sense of how much time we'd need?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I would have to ask my

20 staff. Probably - there -- I mean so let me -- so

21 let me talk about what the plan is on our side for

22 Lot 11, Lot 11 Plus which is if we vote our scope
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1 and metric today we think we can do engineering

2 LCC in April and shipments and NIA in May and then

3 June would be like downstream and deliberations

4 and revisiting and whatever. So doing engineering

5 and LCC by April and shipments and NIA and MIA by

6 May is already going to keep our staff like 100%

7 busy.

8 MR. ADIN: So the other point to make is

9 that we are much, much farther ahead on everything

10 else because we've been looking at it since the

11 framework and you know we didn't have that much on

12 circulators so it is not to say we are exactly a

13 year ahead with these other pump types compared

14 with circulators I mean we couldn't necessarily

15 quantify it that way but definitely we are a lot

16 farther along.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.

18 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd just like to point

19 out that we've been asking for circulators for two

20 and a half years; first with the Hydraulics

21 Institute and then with the Department of Energy

22 as soon as it became involved.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me ask you this. I

2 think we've now -- Alison, Lucas, we've now

3 received a presentation on all the material that

4 is current that we are likely to receive today

5 that we know of; correct?

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

7 MR. ADIN: That we know of.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: And we have entertained

9 as many questions and updates on the data as we

10 can given the members present?

11 MR. ADIN: Yes.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am going to suggest

13 we go to lunch. But before we go to lunch I want

14 your thoughts on how when we return you know that

15 my intention is to bring us to as vote on the --

16 what's to be excluded and included whether we

17 should try and keep this together as a package,

18 whether we should vote on -- see if there are any

19 exclusions in Lot 11, see if there are any

20 circulators should be excluded, and then move from

21 there to -- pardon me, see if there are any

22 exclusions on Lot 11 Plus and then move from there
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1 to see if there are any exclusions considered for

2 Lot 11. How do you think we should consider this

3 as a group and take votes?

4 MS. WALTNER: I think we may need to

5 caucus to even know how we might want to proceed.

6 I don't know if that is --

7 MR. BROOKMAN: I was going to -- so one

8 thought I had was perhaps each of the major

9 caucuses, the energy efficiency efficacy caucus,

10 and the manufacturers caucus could have a couple

11 of representatives just meet with me for ten or 15

12 minutes when we break for lunch. And we will just

13 talk through the options a little bit; get a

14 temperature read and then you can -- and then when

15 we come back from lunch you can meet with the rest

16 of your caucus or you can see them over lunch and

17 we can see where we stand. Or we can talk about

18 this as a whole working group when we return from

19 lunch.

20 Al?

21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber Patterson. I would

22 like to make a proposal that we just take them up
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1 line by line.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

3 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify when you say

4 line by line you mean each yellow --

5 MR. HUBER: No, no, no.

6 MR. ADIN: -- each pump type?

7 MR. HUBER: Each pump type line by line.

8 You don't have that --

9 MR. BARBOUR: Didn't we already do that.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: It occurs to me how they

11 get packaged might make a difference.

12 MR. ADIN: I think --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob.

14 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. Are

15 you saying bring them -- when you say bring them

16 up line by line are you saying include them in a

17 current rule making and then have -- or have the

18 option of having a second rule making and

19 proposing them into that.

20 MR. HUBER: I think that is only for

21 circulators --

22 MR. BARBOUR: You don't think any of the
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1 other yellows should be moved in to a second rule

2 making?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: So my preliminary read;

4 this is just --

5 MR. HUBER: I don't think --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: -- my impression. I

7 don't know if you have all read any of the meeting

8 summaries that I've been writing. Having --

9 [Group response]

10 MR. BROOKMAN: My general impression is

11 that circulators remains the hardest nut for this

12 group to consider at this point. And both sides

13 have demonstrated I'd say equal amount of passion

14 and convictions where your position is so if I was

15 going to call the question and get right after it

16 I would say when we return from lunch we take up

17 the issue of circulators and see where that falls

18 out.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: As a formal vote --

20 Steven Rosenstock, EEI -- are you talking about as

21 a formal vote?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes as a formal vote.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: And then proceed from

3 there to see whether it is line by line or

4 categories of pumps and so -- let me float that as

5 an idea for anybody that wishes to rebut.

6 Okay. I see no significant rebuttal on

7 that idea.

8 Then let's go to lunch. It is 12:17,

9 let's return at 1:20. Please make sure you wear

10 your badges.

11 Jack, will someone stay in this room or

12 can we lock it?

13 MR. GRAUL: I will get -- but I will be

14 here.

15 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Someone will stay

16 here.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Someone will stay here.

18 We've covered a lot of ground here today

19 already. And when we return from lunch we will

20 pick up a vote on circulators first and then go

21 from there to the other items.

22 (WHEREUPON, a lunch recess was
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1 taken.)

2 MR. BROOKMAN: My apologies for those

3 joining us online for me not greeting you at the

4 outset. The Department of Energy has tried hard

5 to make these meetings accessible and also very

6 transparent so we appreciate your accessing the

7 meeting on the web.

8 As we went to lunch we had -- before we

9 went to lunch we had a lot of good discussion and

10 data. I know that over lunch that each of the

11 primary caucuses had some discussion. And as I

12 understand it maybe we hear as we start off

13 immediately following lunch we have a proposal or

14 two to consider.

15 Yes, Tom?

16 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power

17 and Conservation Council. So on behalf of the

18 efficiency advocates --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Talk slowly.

20 MR. ECKMAN: I have to. I have to

21 compose my thoughts exactly. We believe that the

22 circulator pumps can be held to a second event. We
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1 would like to include in the terms that comes out

2 of this negotiation a schedule for that to happen

3 so that that is clear to everybody that we intend

4 to get there and do that as quickly as

5 practicable. Our view of that is is it somewhere

6 close to the end of this year. But that will

7 probably have to be negotiated with DOE and others

8 as we begin - but we begin that process

9 immediately following this one and try and

10 consummate before the end of the year.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And of course then

12 it -- so you are speaking on behalf of the entire

13 --

14 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- caucus?

16 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Circulator pumps as a

18 second negotiation and that would also mean that

19 there is a - - as an action item that this

20 committee would take a recommendation to ASRAC to

21 work in the group 2 asap.

22 MR. ECKMAN: And that would be
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1 circulators and pool pumps.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Circulators and pool

3 pumps.

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I am -- are

5 pool pumps, are those pumps that you can

6 distinguish. I mean do you make -- do you produce

7 pumps that you know are going to pool pump

8 applications?

9 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.

10 MS. MAUER: Yes.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I clarify that also.

12 Because I thought last week the determination was

13 that many of those would actually be covered and

14 have been submitted as end suction pumps.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.

16 So when you get in the commercial pool pumps --

17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

18 MR. HANDZEL: -- there is no

19 differentiation.

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. We are selling an

22 end suction closed couple pump. Okay. Some of
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1 them include an integrated basket strainer.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

3 MR. HANDZEL: And you get into the

4 residential market they are plastic body and --

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

6 MR. HANDZEL: -- they all have

7 integrated basket strainer. So it is -- you can

8 very easily differentiate them.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

10 MR. HANDZEL: So again it is a

11 residential and a commercial.

12 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. The

13 small pool pump that Mark is alluding to is used

14 in both the residential and small commercial

15 market. Commercial market being defined as more

16 than two units sharing a pool, homeowner's

17 association, hotel, motel, typically those are

18 single phase products less than five horsepower.

19 So we can distinguish what we're talking about

20 when we talk about a dedicated purpose pool pump.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So Tom thank you for

22 that. Did I capture that adequately?
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1 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Circulator pumps plus pool

3 pumps you're suggesting they be considered in a

4 second negotiation and include in this rule

5 making's term sheet?

6 MR. ECKMAN: That is right.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And also note that that

8 requires or that would obviate that the working

9 group recommend to ASRAC as soon as possible to

10 get that done?

11 Meg?

12 MS. WALTNER: Yes, I would just add and

13 I think Tom said this that through the target date

14 we envision was a term sheet from that second

15 negotiation by the end of this year.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: By the end of?

17 MS. WALTNER: By the end of December.

18 MR. ECKMAN: Calendar '14 if we can get -

19 --- that would be the goal.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: To calendar --

21 [Discusion]

22 MR. ECKMAN: There are other parties
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1 around that have different view but -- I'm looking

2 at the staff.

3 [Laughter]

4 MR. BROOKMAN: And as I understand it

5 also -

6 -

7 MR. ECKMAN: We'd have to raise taxes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- the manufacturer's

9 caucus also has a proposal.

10 MR. HUBER: We want the whole group to

11 know that we support the proposal by the

12 efficiency advocates.

13 Our proposal is that we adopt Lot 11 and

14 not Lot 11 Plus because the savings of Lot 11 Plus

15 are not very great and because the cost to

16 redesign are extremely high and extremely time

17 consuming. Also double suction pumps as a

18 percentage of the total pump market are declining

19 because people are switching to less expensive

20 forms which are larger end suction in- line and so

21 forth which are not as expensive as the double

22 suction. And we are seeing the market decline. So
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1 we really -- it is our proposal that we do not

2 adopt any of Lot 11 Plus.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?

4 MR. STARR: No.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have questions?

6 Steve Rosenstock?

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a very brief

8 question

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So for the top one it

10 is like Gary said dedicated purpose or dedicated

11 service pool pumps so that --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want --

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- that is the way --

14 your definition?

15 MR. FERNSTROM: Why don't we say single16 phase less than -- no that is not the pump, it is

17 the motor. These are integral products. This is

18 Gary so why don't we say single phase less than

19 five horsepower.

20 MR. STARR: Wouldn't it be --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: But some --

22 MR. STARR: -- an integrated pool pump.
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1 [Discussion]

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I just wondered if

3 dedicated purpose might be a better way to

4 distinguish it.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: So we don't need single

6 phase?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't -- this is

8 Alison. I am not sure that is sufficient because

9 some of those will overlap with what we are

10 already covering.

11 MR. HANDZEL: But the group will decide

12 what the scope is.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So I think --

14 MR. HANDZEL: Besides I don't think we

15 should try to define it here.

16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I agree. I think

17 if we know that we are talking about dedicated

18 purpose pool pumps.

19 MR. ECKMAN: We agree on the intent, the

20 King's English --

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I don't want to

22 mess up the details.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll put both those

2 descriptions in there, dedicated or integrated

3 pool pumps.

4 MR. ECKMAN: Yep.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Tom.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Just to note we agree with

7 the endorsed --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So the EE

9 advocates agree to the manufacturers proposal as a

10 caucus.

11 Chuck?

12 MR. POWERS: A question. This is just

13 for understanding? You wrote second negotiation,

14 she typed for phase 2, what is the right words?

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't --

16 MR. POWERS: And I am going to put out

17 one more -- that is one question. I am not trying

18 to change anything. When we talk Lot 11, Lot 11

19 Plus, just for Lucas from a pure clarity

20 standpoint are we in this room probably a pretty

21 good understanding what that means. Two months

22 from now somebody reads it; what does Lot 11
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1 really mean? So my recommendation - the

2 recommendation would be we classify this sheet on

3 here somehow and call it page whatever; whatever

4 you want to and clearly say either green Lot 11

5 and down here where it says circulators put it

6 right underneath the green and say phase 2 or

7 negotiate 2. And then yellow is 11 plus which --

8 we need it on the list but we know it is out. And

9 then the red speaks for itself I guess; right. So

10 I am just saying anybody six months from now says

11 well what pumps are in there. Well it is the OH7

12 or the EES, it is -- I am not trying to-- is that

13 okay?

14 MR. BROOKMAN: It is a good point. I

15 think it is a very good point.

16 MR. POWERS: So in other words everybody

17 knows what it means so if we could word it

18 properly and call this scope and negotiation phase

19 1 and then it would be circulators phase 2 and 11

20 Plus is out and the other -- I am just trying to -

21 -

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Would it be phase
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1 1 and phase 2; would it be negotiation 1,

2 negotiation 2? What are you thinking?

3 MR. ADIN: I don't know if it matters.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I notice that you

5 are typing Alison.

6 MS. WILLIAM: I'm making Chuck's

7 recommendations --

8 MR. POWERS: Maybe we want to go back to

9 the start to finish that first.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry.

11 MR. POWERS: Then we can come back to --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So we are going to --

13 MR. HANDZEL: I just think it is going to

14 be a second rulemaking with -- like right now this

15 is labeled commercial/industrial pumps working

16 group. You know that group could be called the

17 circulator group and swimming pool pumps working

18 group I would assume; wouldn't it Lucas?

19 MR. ADIN: Well we can make a

20 recommendation. I think it is whatever the ASRAC

21 decides.

22 MR HANDZEL: It depends on whatever the
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1 ASRAC decides to authorize.

2 MR. ECKMAN: But I think we could make a

3 recommendation to ASRAC how we want to play it

4 out.

5 MR. ADIN: Right. I think it is

6 whatever the ASRAC decides.

7 MR. ECKMAN: As Doug said there is a lot

8 of capital we've invested in this already getting

9 to know each other. So--

10 MR. HUBER: I was going to say is it not

11 going to be the same people anyway.

12 MR. ECKMAN: Right.

13 MR. HANDZEL: Some people in this on the

14 manufacturing side if no skin in the game --

15 MR. ECKMAN: They are going to say --

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Just for the record that

17 was Tom and then Al and then Mark and then back to

18 Tom.

19 [Laughter]

20 MR. BROOKMAN: We are making progress

21 here. Before we move on so Alison do you want to

22 correct Slide number 3, scope of the negotiation
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1 to clarify that we are talking about items in Lot

2 11, I am saying this for the record. And that is

3 the -- those are the pump types listed there that

4 is the centerpiece integral to the manufacturer's

5 proposal. The items in yellow are Lot 11 Plus and

6 they are being proposed to not be included with

7 the -- in this rule making. We have a special

8 provision for circulators which are also listed in

9 the Lot 11 Plus categories that they have included

10 in the term sheet. And then in addition pool

11 pumps -- dedicated pool pumps.

12 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Made a new column

13 on the left side.

14 [Discussion]

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So Louis is making the

16 comments.

17 MR. STARR: So I was just suggesting we

18 identify the pump names, whatever the pumps are

19 that are -- I can't read that far away. Just do

20 it that way.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's clarify however

22 we -- the items that are listed in green that we
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1 do this with the ANSI and HI's nomenclature so it

2 is clear what contractor --

3 MS. WILLIAMS: They are over here.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: They are there. Okay.

5 MR. POWERS: Can we just create a new

6 column -- suggestion -- Chuck Powers again.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: New column on the left side

9 that says Lot 11, Lot 11, Lot 11, Lot 11, and

10 phase 2 you have it so move phase 2 over right or

11 second negotiation to the left and where it says

12 phase 2 put in yes and yes.

13 MR. HANDZEL: I was going to say hold on.

14 I don't agree with referencing Lot 11, that is a

15 European --

16 MR. POWERS: Okay.

17 MR. HANDZEL: I am sorry I just don't

18 agree with everybody else.

19 MR. POWERS: Well we are using it up

20 here.

21 MR. HANDZEL: I know that. That is why I

22 agreed to not calling it Lot 11 because I think --
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to be clear, Lot 11

2 has been a useful convenient term.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: A useful shorthand and

5 you noted from the start you want distinctive term

6 for this cluster of pumps. So we can find a way

7 to do that. That is not an issue.

8 So the proposal -- any additional

9 comments because I think it is well understood the

10 EE advocates made their proposal at 1:25 p.m.

11 Circulator pumps plus dedicated integrated pool

12 pumps as a part of a follow on negotiation is

13 second and that be done as soon as possible but

14 they include specifically be included in this rule

15 making group. And the working group recommended

16 to make a recommendation to ASRAC to as soon as

17 possible get this underway with a possible due

18 date of the end of this year, the end of 2014 if

19 possible. And then the manufacturing caucus their

20 caucus has voted to or agreed to support the NGO

21 proposal and support the Lot 11 list, not the Lot

22 11 Plus, those items enumerated in yellow; green
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1 yes, yellow no. And the EE advocates have agreed

2 to the manufacturing proposal.

3 Louis.

4 MR. STARR: There was just one other

5 thing on this one that is yellow we are

6 comfortable about the redesign costs and

7 understand some of the basics; it would help me if

8 we maybe had some of the manufacturers step

9 through each one of the categories -- it will take

10 five or ten minutes but I would feel a little

11 better the significance of the redesign are on

12 those.

13 MR. HANDZEL: This is Mark Handzel from

14 Xylem. Louis I think we're -- we shared all of

15 that data with the surveys that we did with the

16 consultants this summer. I don't -- what we are

17 saying -- we are not done discussing that, that is

18 going to come up in their further analysis as we

19 move through the rest of this process.

20 MR. STARR: I was talking about the 11

21 Plus.

22 MR. HANDZEL: The 11 Plus?
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1 MR. STARR: Yes. Just those guys. I

2 mean -

3 -

4 MR. CASE: I don't have any hard numbers

5 here but this is Greg Case with HI when you look

6 at something like redesigning a double suction

7 there is and Charlie can back me up on this, there

8 is multiple cores that have to go in that. So

9 your pattern cost goes way -- they go up

10 extremely.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Hold up that template.

12 MR. CASE: Can everyone see that?

13 MR. HANDZEL: He is an engineer.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: That is what he is talking

15 about.

16 MR. CASE: But there are multiple cores

17 that have to go into the impellers which -- and

18 casings which makes them much harder to design.

19 The design of the inlet, you are basically doing

20 what we tell nobody to do on a double suction

21 pump, that would put an elbow right at the inlet

22 of a pump and what are we doing we are putting an
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1 elbow right on the inlet. So we have to very

2 carefully design that fluid to come up and around

3 --

4 MR. HANDZEL: Into the eye.

5 MR. CASE: -- into the eye and have it

6 be a uniform velocity going in. So the design

7 costs for that are staggering compared to an end

8 suction pump, at least double if not more. And

9 that is just for any design costs. The impeller

10 it is a very expensive tool to create.

11 MR. STARR: And just maybe if you can

12 step through one or two of the other Lot 11 Plus

13 or --

14 MS. WALTNER: In particular I was --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg please go ahead.

16 MS. WALTNER: Sorry interested in the

17 radial split horizontal that we don't have energy

18 use information on that one. They are the

19 cheapest unit based on the HI data. Curious what

20 applications those are used for. Are those

21 substitutes and what -- I guess I would like to

22 learn a little bit more about that before I
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1 eliminated them.

2 MR. POWERS: Greg Towsley?

3 MR. TOWSLEY: What is that?

4 MR. POWERS: Isn't that your CRs and

5 stuff like that that --

6 MR. TOWSLEY: Well, no CRs are under the

7 RS- V which is already up there in a VS8.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: So I will throw in --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. So

11 radial split horizontal, a typically multi-stage

12 product and probably one of the primary

13 applications for that would be a boiler feed

14 application so they tend to be your higher

15 pressure and also your higher temperature

16 applications. They tend to be fairly -- again

17 fairly complex in terms of the geometries in terms

18 of the impeller and the diffuser design. So they

19 are kind of an intermediate between a highly

20 engineered product and a commodity product, kind

21 of in that middle tier from a kind of an

22 engineered kind of a product. We don't sell a lot
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1 of them. But we are in that market space so I

2 don't know if that helped you at all.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

4 MR. HUBER: We were kicking around before

5 we were trying to fill in some of these holes and

6 we looked at it and we contact some folks and we

7 think that the horsepower range there is between

8 two and three horsepower on the RSH. It doesn't

9 use a lot of energy and there is not a lot of

10 quantity so we think that it is not worthwhile.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, please?

12 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos,

13 just to add to what Charlie said but at the same

14 time overall design there are some that are down

15 at the smaller end too that we actually make as

16 well, some multi-stage, concept, maybe not for

17 boiler feed pump but it is used for pressure

18 boosting applications. And also they are very

19 small horsepowers as Al said.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.

21 MS. WALTNER: So would they be a

22 substitute for any of the Lot 11 pumps?
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1 MR. HUBER: No they are more like a

2 bench product, what we term as a bench product.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

4 MR. POWERS: The EU did a study and it

5 comes down to a footprint issue; right. So in

6 other words when they have a real estate problem

7 and there is tightness and different things they

8 use these. A lot of them are used in mining for

9 dewatering where they have a tight spot down in

10 the ground, a couple thousand feet, and they can

11 fit it in and they can get to it. The oil and gas

12 and refining uses quite a bit of them. This is a

13 study done by the EU group. And then they also

14 talked about the mining, the oil and the gas, the

15 power that Charlie brought up on the boiler feed;

16 those kind of applications.

17 MS. WALTNER: This is the EU study for

18 the eleven -- base study.

19 MR. POWERS: Yeah. There is a general

20 guide to rotodynamic pumps.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie, please.

22 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. I
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1 hate to backtrack since we are making such great

2 progress but on the green lot of pumps. I am not

3 going to call them Lot 11. But the end suction

4 close couple I think we need a parenthetical

5 comment that that excludes the dedicated pool

6 pumps since they are going to be included in with

7 the circulators.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

9 MR. HUBER: I don't know if --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: It's --

11 MR. SDANO: I don't want them regulated

12 by two groups.

13 MR. ECKMAN: You don't want two

14 different standards to show up.

15 MR. ADIN: So just to clarify; whatever

16 regulatory language we come up with it will

17 eliminate that kind of thing where the definitions

18 for those categories would define where that

19 exclusion lies. So that is a good point you

20 raise. But we define it that way so --

21 MR. SDANO: Okay.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 Just wanted to ask about VT-S or VS8, VSO and then

3 the VS 1 and 2 or VT, are there every any issues

4 in terms of are they ever competing for the same

5 end use application because you'd be regulating

6 one VT versus the other VT or one VS versus the

7 other VS; and are you losing any economies of

8 scale by doing a standard for one but not the

9 other?

10 MR. HANDZEL: Can you just repeat it one

11 more time -- I am sorry.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay I am looking at --

13 well okay I am looking at okay VS - VTS which is

14 in the green, phase 1 versus VT.

15 MR. HANDZEL: Right.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or VSO versus VS1 or

17 VS2 we are saying we are going to regulate, we are

18 going to do a standard for VTS but not VT or VSO

19 versus VS1 and

20 VS2 --

21 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So these are two

22 different pump categories typically so these were
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1 -- they were under six inch and these were six

2 inch and above.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

4 MR. HANDZEL: So you know they are two

5 different categories.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Well all vertical turbine

7 are six inch and under so.

8 MR. HANDZEL: But these are primarily

9 residential bore hole pumps, the larger

10 residential bore hole pumps.

11 MS. WILLIAMS: But isn't it true that

12 for the under six inches some of the vertical

13 turbines would have the exact same bowls as the

14 vertical turbine submersibles?

15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck Powers. It

16 depends but maybe not. The reason is if you had a

17 six inch casing there are VTPs that literally have

18 a six inch bowl diameter. So if you need to put

19 that in a casing theoretically the bowl might fit

20 but you have got to run the cable by it because

21 the motor is below and it won't work. It runs it

22 every day. So are there certain hydraulics
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1 specific speed wise that to that, yes. The

2 biggest thing is when you get in the bore hole

3 you'll find VTPs on four inch, very few of them,

4 they are mainly used for the oil, gas and

5 cryogenics for very high pressure applications.

6 You won't see them where they are hanging them

7 1000 feet down with a discharge head on the

8 surface. Kinds of scale say look let's put a

9 submersible because submersibles go down to two

10 inch, two and a half inch, three inch in some of

11 the ranges that these guys make. But you won't --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, let me ask you

13 this. I want you to look at the items in three,

14 the pump types that are listed there on the far

15 right column are those pump types that the

16 nomenclature, the naming that is there, is that

17 sufficient. Or should there be other specific

18 listings there?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: I am not sure what you

20 are talking about.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Consistent with what was

22 originally the Lot 11 proposal from HI.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I just added --

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I just want to make sure

3 they are all there.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, they are all here.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That is what I

6 want to hear.

7 MS. WILLIAMS: I am confident.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I am going to

9 move to question now. We've heard first from the

10 energy efficiency advocacy caucus and they made a

11 proposal. Joanna?

12 MS. MAUER: I just had a couple more

13 questions.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

15 MS. MAUER: Just getting back to double

16 suction Al so if I understood you right you said

17 for the same application a double suction pump

18 would be more expensive than a in-line and so

19 there wouldn't be a risk that in-line and double

20 suction -- so why are people using them today?

21 MR. HUBER: Why are they?

22 MS. MAUER: Yes.
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1 MR. HUBER: Mostly because of

2 reliability. They are considered robust.

3 MR. HANDZEL: Two bearings power

4 spinning it versus two bearings back here --

5 MR. HUBER: Yeah.

6 MR. HANDZEL: -- and leave off of it.

7 The double suction is going to run longer, last

8 longer.

9 MR. HUBER: But in the markets today

10 though, the municipal the markets today --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al Huber.

12 Joanna, do you have another question?

13 MS. MAUER: My other question is just

14 getting back to our discussion this morning about

15 VS1 versus VS8. I think you said Mark that from

16 the manufacturer's perspective they're essentially

17 the same pump. So I just wanted to understand why

18 you are proposing to exclude the immersible?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I mean that is

20 actually a good clarification right because you

21 were saying this morning that the immersibles are

22 rolled up in there. I have it broken out on a
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1 separate line that I put no next to because you

2 guys had previously said it was a VS1 and

3 therefore would be excluded as vertical turbine.

4 So I am unclear also if it should be included or

5 excluded.

6 MR. HANDZEL: I need somebody else to

7 comment because I don't have an answer --

8 MR. HUBER: Both of them are in the

9 yellow category.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: Well no the R - the VS8

11 is in the green.

12 MR. HUBER: VS8.

13 [Dicussion]

14 MR. TOWSLEY: Repeat the question.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: So should the immersible

16 machine tool type pumps be covered under VS8 or

17 excluded under VS1 or just excluded on their own

18 merits.

19 MR. TOWSLEY: I will speak, Greg

20 Towsley, Grundfos. I will speak only on behalf of

21 us knowing that there are other manufacturers of

22 multi stage radial split vertical immersibles. In
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1 some cases the components are the same. In others

2 they are not.

3 MS. WILLIAMS: The same as both VS8 and

4 VS1 or the same as --

5 MR. TOWSLEY: As the VS8.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: VS8.

7 MR. TOWSLEY: Those are used in

8 immersibles. Others because of specific hydraulics

9 may be a little bit different.

10 MR. CASE: So you would -- this is Greg

11 Case with HI. You would actually get the benefit

12 on some pumps and not even have them included. And

13 other pumps where they were different and they

14 were specifically for immersible application.

15 Because the VS8 is actually the one on a pedestal;

16 right?

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Yeah.

18 MR. CASE: So that is your CR series.

19 MR. TOWSLEY: Right. Exactly.

20 MR. CASE: Yeah. So you would actually

21 get the benefit on some of the VS1s that were

22 immersible and if you had components of VS8 in the
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1 other standard so there would be --

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Carryover.

3 MR. CASE: -- carryover.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So I've lost track of

5 what is being proposed now.

6 MR. CASE: We are not proposing -- it is

7 a question.

8 [Discussion] So if you eliminated the

9 VS1 from the proposed rulemaking you will also get

10 some of the components in the VS8 since the VS8

11 was going to be upgraded some of the VS1

12 components on the immersible pumps would be

13 upgraded also. So without even regulating it you

14 would actually get some of those --

15 MS. WILLIAMS: And if we actually had

16 those in the data then it would be accounted for

17 because we don't know.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison tell me what --

19 translate this for me because I am still unclear?

20 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think sort of where

21 we are going is that the immersibles don't have to

22 be explicitly regulated but many of them would end
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1 up with increased efficiency anyway because they

2 have the same hydraulic design as the RS-V or VS8

3 that are going to be included so there would be

4 spillover energy savings. I am adding the point

5 that they are suggesting that there are shipments

6 of those included in the RS-Vs so we may be

7 accounting for those spillover savings implicitly

8 because of the data that we have.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Well stated. Now, Louis

10 please.

11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. I

12 talked to someone earlier this morning about what

13 is the difference between VS1 and VS8. So

14 essentially I can't remember if I am getting this

15 right. VS1 the water comes up through the center

16 and is expelled through the top on the right, like

17 the top of the head. And on the other one, the

18 VS8 it comes up the center but then goes out a

19 casing around the piston and comes back down. So

20 --

21 MR. HANDZEL: Well it is an in-line.

22 MR. STARR: It is a bottom up.
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1 MR. HANDZEL: So it goes in one side,

2 goes up through the pump and comes back out the

3 other side.

4 MR. POWERS: I know this is tough to

5 see. Chuck Powers. This is a VS8. Okay. It is

6 an in-line product.

7 MR. HANDZEL: I showed Louis that on

8 break this morning.

9 MR. POWERS: -- that is internal to the

10 product but comes in one end -- they can put it in

11 within the piping without having to mount it on

12 the floor so to speak. And then --

13 MS. WILLIAMS: It is up here also.

14 MR. POWERS: Okay. There you go. Okay.

15 And then the VS1 is a vertical turbine where you

16 have the bowl assembly at the bottom, it is coming

17 up through the column and discharging out some

18 type of a discharge.

19 MR. STARR: So my understanding of why

20 you might want to buy a VS1 as opposed to a VS8.

21 The VS1 can be very long and tall and it is

22 sitting down in the pump you don't mind about the
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1 vertical or the height of the thing. But the VS8

2 might be used something of in a mechanical

3 equipment room such that you might pump the

4 condensate out so it gives you the advantage of

5 being a little bit shorter. In a way it seems

6 like they are doing the same thing except one is

7 more compact. And so I kind of wonder -- it is a

8 little bit of a concern; it seems like they could

9 be swapped out -- one could be swapped out for the

10 other. But no so likely because of the physical

11 constraints of the room and so it wouldn't be --

12 you wouldn't have to worry so much about that

13 happening.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.

15 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. I think the

16 difference in height you are going to see is the

17 motor not -- I mean the physical package of the

18 pump is not going to change. It is the motor

19 height -- having to have a very thin long motor

20 versus a commercial motor on top of it. So that

21 is the difference you would see in the length of

22 the pump and the size of the pump.
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1 MR. STARR: About the cost between those

2 two.

3 MR. CASE: In motor cost versus --

4 MR. STARR: Well just the overall same

5 flow and head for different. I mean would someone

6 be switching it out to save a buck?

7 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

8 think we are getting confused. I think you are

9 starting to talk about vertical submersibles now

10 aren't you?

11 MR. CASE: Well he brought in the

12 vertical submersibles on the long tall vertical

13 motor.

14 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Front page of your

15 handout.

16 [Discussion]

17 MR. POWERS: But that is not a vertical

18 -- that is not a VS1 immersible.

19 MR. CASE: No.

20 MR. POWERS: That is a VS1 turbine.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
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1 This conversation has been helpful but it does

2 sound kind of like what Louis -- it does sound

3 like they are kind of competitive products so I

4 guess my concern is if they are competitive for

5 the same application and especially I will say for

6 new buildings or new processes you are regulating

7 one product but not the other, there could be some

8 market implications there. So I guess I am a

9 little --

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts wants to

11 respond. Doug?

12 MR. POTTS: Well so I am not a pump

13 manufacturer but what I understand is the first

14 type the VS1, make sure I am -- right. So that --

15 my understanding is that a key distinction between

16 the two types of pumps is one is suspended in the

17 water whether it be a well, a clear well, it is

18 suspended in the product that you are pumping. And

19 the other one is flanged. It is in a pipeline.

20 [Discussion]

21 MR. POTTS: Yeah. Right but it wouldn't

22 be the same kind of stand. And I can't imagine
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1 that at least in my world is the two competitors

2 switching them. One is suspended in the fluid.

3 The other one is -- it has an open intake. The

4 other one has flanges on both ends and inserted in

5 a horizontal running pipe.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg do you want to add

7 on.

8 MR. CASE: I'd just agree. Nodding

9 along.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I am going to

11 move this question now. We've had and about 20

12 minutes ago in considerable detail listed the two

13 proposals. We had a proposal from the efficiency

14 advocates caucus and Tom indicated he consulted

15 with his caucus members. We had a proposal from

16 the manufacturers' caucus. And Al offered to me

17 that he consulted with his caucus members. So now

18 I am going to ask for a vote, what you agreed,

19 with the proposal as is, both aspects of that

20 proposal.

21 MS. MAUER: Joanna. May we have a two

22 minute caucus.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. We can have a five

2 minute caucus.

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question Doug?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again this is more of a

6 process. Again for this process there was a

7 public announcement of people for this working

8 group and you now there was an announcement in the

9 Federal Register, people had time to apply, a

10 decision was made. Please refresh my memory was

11 that about a two or three month process? RFI to

12 deciding about who was on the committee?

13 MR. ADIN: I wouldn't count the time

14 between the RFI and the meeting.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The request for members

16 and the decision of who was on the working group;

17 how much time did that take?

18 MR. ADIN: I think that was somewhere in

19 the neighborhood of two months. But it wouldn't

20 necessarily have to take that long in this case. I

21 mean we have a much better idea of --

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.
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1 MR. ADIN: -- what is actually.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again I just wanted in

3 terms of process I just wanted to add that -- put

4 that on the table here too.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you very

7 much.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So Joanna you wanted a

9 caucus. Okay. So let's just take five minutes

10 and do you all want to meet out there?

11 And I don't think the manufacturers need

12 a caucus. So you can stand up and stretch.

13 (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was

14 taken for a caucus.)

15 MR. BROOKMAN: We are now going to vote.

16 As I said before we broke for caucus and I am

17 terming this the Joint Proposal, that includes the

18 proposal from the energy efficiency advocacy

19 caucus and the manufacturers' caucus. I detailed

20 that in considerable length before. I think we

21 know what is included in it. And I am going to

22 ask for all those in favor of accepting this joint
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1 -- Lucas?

2 MR. ADIN: There were a couple of points

3 I wanted to make before we dive right into this

4 that I think are important for everyone to

5 understand at the outset.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MR. ADIN: So we can make a

8 recommendation to ASRAC for the time line that we

9 want to pursue for this rule making. But I can't

10 make a guarantee about DOE's ability to provide

11 analytical support. So it is possible that we may

12 not be able to support a time line that

13 aggressive.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: The 12-31-14 timeline?

15 MR. ADIN: Yes.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.

17 MR. ADIN: I just want everyone to

18 understand that that possibility exists.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I think the thrust of

20 Tom's proposal was we want to proceed with this

21 and we would love to see it get done by this time

22 table, however, we understand.
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1 MR. ADIN: As long as people don't take

2 my vote as a being a promise that I -- [Laughter.]

3 MS. WILLIAMS: I have a question on that

4 because I am taking notes up here that will be

5 like part of the record that you guys vote on. So

6 should we modify this target date.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Alison suggested

8 something like subject to DOE availability or

9 subject to DOE capacity.

10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary. Let

11 me just say that we are making a recommendation

12 here and I don't think we have to make it any

13 easier for DOE. I think the recommendation ought

14 to stand the way it is. We recognize --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: It is a reality.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: -- Lucas's comment that

17 --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: -- he can't commit DOE

20 but that shouldn't be changing our expectation and

21 hope here.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you say two things?
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1 MR. ADIN: No, that -- oh there is

2 another thing.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

4 MR. ADIN: That was the end of that

5 thing. I just wanted to make sure that we are

6 clear about our position on that.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

8 MR. ADIN: The other thing was we had

9 had some previous discussion about what the

10 compliance period might be for a follow on. And

11 our view anyway is that from a legal prospective

12 there is -- EPCA is pretty clear that it is a five

13 year compliance period from publication of final

14 rule. So if we do this follow on rule and we

15 publish a rule with standards they would have five

16 years to comply --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

18 MR. ADIN: -- from the date of that

19 rule.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: -- we would not necessarily

22 be able to negotiate that aspect.
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1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary, Lucas. But

2 couldn't a working group recommend something

3 different? You are just advising us that even if

4 we recommended it DOE may have limited

5 flexibility?

6 MS. KOHL: Well but I mean. This is

7 Betsy Kohl, DOE. If you have a whole

8 recommendation keyed on something other than five

9 years and that is legally impermissible why would

10 you do that?

11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I think one of the

12 issues is assuring --

13 MS. KOHL: All the analysis is also

14 keyed on the five -- we can't key an analysis off

15 of something other than five years.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: I think one of the

17 issues is assuring that manufacturers have time to

18 do their development, adjust their production, and

19 not create an imbalanced playing field. And if

20 during the process we agree that more time might

21 be merited we can recommend that I presume.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
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1 MR. HUBER: You can recommend it, they

2 won't do it.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis I think we are

4 going to a vote.

5 MR. ADIN: So actually Meg had something

6 --

7 MR. FERNSTROM: But I didn't hear a

8 response? So you are basically saying you don't

9 --

10 MS. KOHL: I don't have anything else to

11 say other than what I said before. I mean EPCA

12 decided that that time period is five years. So I

13 mean I don't understand, we can do an analysis to

14 support whatever this group would come up with

15 that is different than five years. That would be

16 a waste of resources.

17 MS. FERNSTROM: So you feel you are

18 locked into five years period?

19 MS. KOHL: Yes.

20 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.

21 MR. ADIN: So we -- so Meg did have --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, go ahead.
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1 MS. WALTNER: Just a follow up question

2 --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louder.

4 MS. WALTNER: I brought this up before

5 in our earlier meetings but it has been hashed and

6 probably got before the division basically --

7 MS. KOHL: No we are not in the direct

8 final rule with EPCA so we don't have that kind of

9 --

10 MS. WALTNER: But if you had --

11 MS. KOHL: This is a totally different

12 statutory construct, we are not under (p)(4).

13 MR. WALTNER: So that isn't --

14 MS. KOHL: No we are not doing a direct

15 final ruling in this, this is a negotiated

16 rulemaking process.

17 MS. WALTNER: But if you got petitions

18 that satisfied the provision of the direct final

19 rule --

20 MS. KOHL: Potentially.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now I am moving

22 the question.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: No I am moving the

3 question.

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Excuse me Doug, I don't

5 think that is fair. I -- we are just seeing this

6 right now as a fully vetted product. I think that

7 members of this committee should, Steven

8 Rosenstock, yes that people should be allowed to

9 make amendments to this if they want to.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Try and make your

11 amendment.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. Sorry.

13 Based on an earlier conversation I -- my amendment

14 would be to move a Lot 11 Plus VT into the covered

15 products because of economies of scale, the

16 possible same application and competitive, their

17 competitive qualities.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That is my amendment.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: So you are proposing that

21 -- you, Steve Rosenstock, you are making a

22 proposal that is different from the proposal from
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1 the two major --

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I am amending it, yes,

3 moving VT from the not covered to the covered.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: VT. So I guess we should

5 vote on Steve Rosenstock's proposal first because

6 that is different than the other proposal.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: An amendment to the

8 proposal, yes.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve's amendment to the

10 proposal. All those in favor of Steve

11 Rosenstock's amendment to this proposal signify by

12 raising their hands.

13 We have one, two, we have more than

14 three.

15 MR. STARR: I think a discussion would

16 help. There was some -- when we went out there and

17 met there was some things that we talked about and

18 I think we have solution but maybe Meg actually

19 was I was trying to set her up for that discussion

20 about -- that wasn't a legal question. I was

21 hoping --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I am very eager to
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1 get this done as perhaps you can tell. Meg go you

2 want to go ahead and try it.

3 MS. WALTNER: Yes so my perspective on

4 vertical turbine was if it doesn't add to the

5 incremental analysis barrier at this point for

6 consultants then could we look at the LCC analysis

7 for the next meeting and use that as the point

8 where we actually have some data. So that was my

9 thinking in terms of being --

10 MR. BROOKNER: So now you've made your

11 statement. Steve Rosenstock has proposed an

12 amendment. We voted on the amendment. There were

13 about five votes yes which means three votes

14 against derails the consensus. That is this group

15 did not support your amendment, Steve.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Understood.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Now we are going to vote

18 on the proposal on the table.

19 MS. WALTNER: Technically --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: We -- I am going with it

21 --

22 MS. WALTNER: Don't we actually need the
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1 no votes?

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we did. Yes we did.

3 [Discussion]

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to offer the

5 no votes?

6 [Group response, yes]

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's call for the

8 no votes. All those in favor of defeating Steve

9 Rosenstock's proposal -- [Laughter]

10 MR. BROOKMAN: All those voting against

11 the proposal -- the amendment on the table which

12 is to move VT from not covered to covered, all

13 those against that raise your hands.

14 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

15 eight against.

16 Okay. Now we are going to -- I am

17 moving the larger question.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: Were there five yes or

19 were there approximately five --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: There are -- there are 16

21 members present. And eight --

22 MS. WILLIAMS: That is only 13.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 I saw five yeses when -- at the end of the yes

3 vote.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: Did three people abstain.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes but --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: No one is going to admit

7 to abstaining?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Did we have abstentions?

9 MR. LIN: I abstained.

10 MS. WILLIAMS: If you didn't vote yes or

11 no, you abstain.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we have at least one

13 abstention.

14 MR. ECKMAN: If you are here you are

15 voting one way or another or abstaining.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now the joint

17 proposal which includes the energy efficiency

18 advocates proposal and the manufacturers'

19 proposal; all those that are in favor of accepting

20 that as detailed previously and on the slides

21 please signify --

22 MR. ECKMAN: Can we vote on Meg's
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1 proposal? She had that -- did you make that as an

2 official proposal?

3 MR. BROOKMAN: No that is the same as

4 what Steve was saying?

5 MS. WALTNER: I did not make a proposal.

6 MR. ECKMAN: Hers wasn't -- okay, just

7 basically referring to --

8 MS. WALTNER: I don't have a separate

9 proposal.

10 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now we are

12 moving the question --

13 MR. ECKMAN: Now we can --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: -- all those in favor of

15 accepting this joint proposal please signify by

16 raising your hand.

17 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

18 eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen,

19 fourteen, fifteen for the proposal.

20 All those opposed?

21 None opposed.

22 All those abstaining?
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1 One abstention.

2 So now we have done it. Congratulations.

3 [Applause]

4 MR. BROOKMAN: After due consideration

5 now Gary Fernstrom?

6 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd

7 just like to say this has been a long time coming.

8 And I very much appreciate everybody's spirit of

9 cooperation and compromise.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Gary.

11 MR. POTTS: Thank you.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: And I appreciate the

13 direct conversation and the spirit of exchange

14 that we have witnessed here.

15 MR. POTTS: We appreciate that Gary is

16 going to treat us all to a round of beers tonight.

17 [Laughter]

18 MR. ECKMAN: That must be what sold it.

19 MR. HUBER: Very fine.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh one other thing that

21 is on the exclusions list that we didn't close out

22 last time was sanitary pumps. And I know that
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1 Greg provided us with information to DOE. That

2 was that item in the red that was considered a

3 possible exclusion but we didn't have all the

4 information we thought we needed at that time. So

5 do you have that information Alison or --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Hold on. Sorry.

7 MR. POWERS: She is going to take a

8 class in PowerPoint before the next meeting.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Hey -- [Laughter]

10 MR. ECKMAN: Careful she will make you

11 do it.

12 MR. POWERS: Then you will really see

13 ugly.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: This is the -- what Greg

15 sent on the sanitary pumps definitions.

16 MR. CASE: And I must say that I didn't

17 craft this. This is Mr. Towsley's work. I just

18 got it approved --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison read it into the

20 record.

21 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh my. The whole thing?

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Hygienic or

2 sanitary pumps are typically used in food

3 processing and pharmaceutical applications. They

4 are designed with special parameters with specific

5 materials and surface finish to a variety of

6 national and international rules and regulations

7 that will minimize biological growth inside the

8 pump to protect public health. These design

9 parameters and materials may result in lower

10 efficiencies than for standard water pumps.

11 Certifications for hygienic or sanitary products

12 include but are not limited to 3A sanitary

13 standards, European Hygienic Equipment Design

14 Group Recommendations, and Qualified Hygienic

15 Design.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: That's it?

17 MS. WILLIAMS: That is it.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And so -- yes please

19 Greg?

20 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. The

21 offer of this; that was a starting point. It may

22 or may not meet EU definition rules. So --
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: All of these that we have

2 above I think it has been determined that DOE will

3 review and work on them later.

4 MR. ADIN: Right.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: So the intent -- I think

6 people can vote on the intent of your definition.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, add on?

8 MR. ADIN: I don't -- I think Alison

9 captured it. I think we were just trying to get a

10 sense of conceptually what is it we're dealing

11 with and at least then we can craft it into a

12 regulatory provision --

13 MR. BROOKMAN: And just to confirm this

14 was in part on the exclusions list because they

15 are expensive and they're --

16 MR. HANDZEL: They are not designed with

17 efficiency.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: They are not designed

19 with efficiency in mind. And furthermore they are

20 not a part of the original proposal from HI.

21 Okay. So we do -- we should though act

22 as a working group to exclude sanitary pumps if
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1 that is what you wish to do?

2 Steve Rosenstock?

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

4 Just a quick question. Estimated number

5 shipments, typical horsepower?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Any idea?

8 MR. CASE: There has been no data

9 collected

10 --

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What?

12 MR. CASE: There has been no data

13 collected on any of this.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: So they are so small that

16 there is no data?

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. That is fine.

18 MR. HANDZEL: It is another one of those

19 niche markets -- this is Mark speaking that I

20 don't think any -- none of us are significantly in

21 it. Put it on the table.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison do you have any
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1 thoughts on sanitary pumps?

2 MS. WILLIAMS: I do not.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

4 MS. MAUER: I just -- what is the reason

5 why someone wouldn't use a sanitary pump in some

6 other clean water --

7 MR. HUBER: It costs you about four

8 times the price.

9 MR. HANDZEL: It is food grade stainless

10 steel and -- [Discussion]

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber says they are

12 much more expensive.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: Greg has a comment.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?

15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I

16 was just going to say just design, higher cost to

17 run, material 304 316 stainless steel in every one

18 of them, motor is going to be special because

19 there is wash down duty. It is just expensive.

20 Polished interior. Not as efficient as a regular -

21 -

22 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am about to move the
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1 question about whether we wish to exclude sanitary

2 pumps from coverage in this working group

3 proceeding. Are we comfortable doing that?

4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I am

5 comfortable. The initial idea for a definition

6 seems very vague to me. But that would be my only

7 concern. Just -- define in such a way that it is

8 very specific to what we are trying to --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?

10 MR. ADIN: I think -- I understand your

11 question and we would have the same concerns when

12 we are trying to -- when we attempted to craft

13 some kind of definition such that it is very clear

14 which characteristics these have, how they are

15 distinguished from these other types. It sounds

16 like one of them is the standards to which they

17 have to be certified; so in the same way as the

18 fire pumps. It sounds like -- I don't know if any

19 of the manufacturers here can comment. Are those

20 particular standards for the specific industry

21 protocols?

22 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.
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1 Those are the three primary global sanitary or

2 hygienic standards that are out there that

3 specifically tell you how the pump shall be done

4 so as not to develop cracks and crevices that will

5 hold bacteria so that when you eat your -- drink

6 your milk you are not going to be getting

7 something you don't want. There are very specific

8 design things in those specifications. Everybody

9 and probably your friend somewhere here in D.C. at

10 USDA will tell you even more. But they require a

11 3A pump for something in that type of --

12 MR. ADIN: Okay.

13 MS. WILLIAMS: But 3A but you are just

14 using 3A standards would not be sufficient?

15 MR. TOWSLEY: No that would be -- in the

16 U.S. that would be sufficient.

17 MR. HANDZEL: So we tried to give you

18 all the ones around the world.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Because it says not

20 limited to. So --

21 MR. TOWSLEY: There may be jurisdictions

22 or applications and not knowing food industry that
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1 well but may not say 3A, it may state food grade

2 type or something like that referencing something

3 like this or even referencing your --

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Is that the

5 organization -- I am sorry Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

6 3A is that the organization name or the --

7 MR. TOWSLEY: 3A, 3-A.org or something

8 like that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie --

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: - the design, those

13 standards when they got around to doing the

14 definitions. They have more time now and -- to do

15 -- they can look at looking into those standards

16 to see exactly if there is something in there that

17 --

18 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. And if all

19 of the sanitary pumps in the U.S. are certified to

20 3A then that seems actually pretty straight

21 forward.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Again I just know --
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1 MR. CASE: I ran this by three other

2 manufacturers, they all said that should cover us

3 as far as what makes us different than regular

4 pumps.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: 3A being the description.

6 MR. CASE: Yes. 3A being the and those

7 are the standards they comply to.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie I thought

9 you were looking it up?

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: I am. It is a -- this

11 is Charlie Cappellino. I just typed in 3A and it

12 is a USDA guideline for sanitary design and

13 fabrication of dairy processing equipment.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Excellent.

15 MR. ADIN: It is a federal guideline; is

16 that what it is?

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: It says USDA. It says

18 USDA agricultural marketing service; USDA

19 guidelines for sanitary design and fabrication of

20 dairy processing equipment.

21 MR. ADIN: In any case we'll do the

22 background research and figure out whatever it is.
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1 We need to ask more questions.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to clarify as I

3 said before sanitary pumps are one of the items

4 that was tentatively included in red that we

5 thought would be - - it is on page 3 of your Power

6 Point sheet. We have gone through all of these

7 other items in red which have been excluded. I am

8 now going to move the question whether you wish to

9 exclude sanitary pumps from the scope this working

10 group meeting.

11 All those in favor of excluding sanitary

12 pumps from this scope of this working group please

13 signify by raising your hands.

14 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

15 eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.

16 Thank you. We have unanimity throughout

17 excluding sanitary pumps.

18 We are doing better.

19 [Applause.]

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now I asked Lucas

21 at the break because I haven't had a chance to

22 read all the way through this packet yet. The
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1 Department has done some work on clean water

2 definition as well. Maybe we should go there next.

3 MR. ADIN: Right. So I will clarify a

4 little bit. We are not proposing a specific

5 definition to vote on because like some of these

6 other things the crafting of regulatory language

7 comes with other consideration so we can't do it

8 completely necessarily in this group. So you know

9 there are legal aspects and other people in our

10 department have to weigh in on it. So what I

11 think really what we are trying to do is, like

12 with those other types to be excluded, we are

13 trying to evaluate conceptually what does it mean

14 to be a clean water pump. If there are changes we

15 have to make to the wording to accomplish that in

16 regulation, they will do it. And that will be

17 proposed through a test procedure notice. After

18 they release that mission we will try and do it as

19 soon as possible -- through the test procedure

20 rule making. That action is going on while we're

21 still in the process of negotiating -- so that you

22 will all have a chance to see what is proposed to
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1 be in the actual regulation.

2 At least for today's purposes we are

3 talking about conceptually what is a clean water

4 pump. And so what we did is I put up there --

5 just at least based on what we talked about so far

6 -- what a clean water pump is and then the

7 exclusions that we talked about.

8 Now another way to potentially -- well

9 let me step back a little bit. Where it says pump

10 is designed for use in pumping clean water. I put

11 that in italics because that is really kind of the

12 key distinguishing characteristic for -- well

13 distinguishing set of characteristics -- that

14 separates clean water pumps from potentially other

15 types of pumps. So what you are trying to say is

16 it has its own characteristics that make it suited

17 for this clean water application. And I think the

18 one thing we really want to make sure we have

19 clear is; is it necessary to make any other

20 clarifications in the wording that would help

21 identify a clean water pump compared with a pump

22 that is potentially designed for use in non-clean
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1 water application? And we haven't considered

2 these other exceptions. So is it more appropriate

3 to say designed for use in clean water or pumping

4 clean water only or conversely a pump that is not

5 designed for use in pumping liquids other than

6 clean water because those things obviously are

7 such a different --- I am not sure that. Does

8 that make sense?

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And so you --

10 MR. ADIN: It is a starting point but I

11 think --

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And you are

13 proposing that this gets resolved during the test

14 procedure consideration?

15 MR. ADIN: No I think we want to get

16 some resolution on the conceptual thing while we

17 are here.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

19 MR. ADIN: And then to the extent DOE

20 needs to make some specific changes to the wording

21 whether it is to that part of the top or the

22 exceptions. For example in the exceptions list we
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1 have a pump designed and --. We might have to

2 word that differently.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

4 MR. ADIN: From a legal standpoint it is

5 solid and you can't put that in the regs.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?

7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. The

8 only other question I had is do they have a list

9 of parameters at one point --

10 MR. ADIN: Yep.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- that would be in

12 addition to this definition --

13 MR. ADIN: Right. So the way this would

14 work -- which parameters do you mean? Do you mean

15 like the trim --

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Horsepower --

17 MR. ADIN: All that?

18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Horsepower, temperature

19 range.

20 MR. ADIN: Right. So those things would

21 actually be -- so this defines the -- what

22 constitutes the pump. And then we have this table
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1 of standards that has all types that we are

2 looking at and it would say prospectively

3 standards for clean water -- rotodynamic clean

4 water pumps, then all these horsepower blah, blah,

5 blah. So that would be in the standard portion.

6 So you have this definition for what constitutes a

7 clean water pump and then here are the standards

8 that are applicable to pumps that are of 1/25

9 horsepower and no greater than ten -- Right. And

10 that is typically the way we do it for a standard

11 --

12 MR. CAPPILLINO: That is fine. I just

13 wanted to make sure we --

14 MR. ADIN: Yes. We --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al -- Al Huber?

16 MR. HUBER: I assume that you want to

17 define a fire pump with a UL/FM certification. You

18 just left that out for the time being.

19 MR. ADIN: Oh yeah. I am sorry. I

20 didn't include that in the slides. But --

21 MR. HUBER: The only reason I asked is

22 because you put API610 and ISO1307 --
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1 MR. ADIN: Right. The qualifiers.

2 MR. HUBER: The qualifiers.

3 MR. ADIN: That is a good point. There

4 is probably -- I didn't include a slide that shows

5 this on here but we have a separate definition for

6 fire pump. The term fire pump would mean pump as

7 defined.

8 MR. HUBER: Okay.

9 MR. ADIN: And the same for self-priming

10 pump. You know you could have a definition for

11 nuclear pump that just says what it says up there.

12 MR. HUBER: Okay.

13 MR. ADIN: I just put it right in there.

14 MR. HUBER: That is okay.

15 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

16 MR. HUBER: I am fine with it.

17 MR. ADIN: Right.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg?

19 MR. CASE: Based on our last

20 conversation did we need to add in sanitary pump

21 to the bottom of this?

22 MR. ADIN: Yep.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

2 MR. POWERS: Yeah, also I guess you need

3 the 10 CFR 50 for section 3 right to be clear. And

4 the ASME pressure booster for the nuclear?

5 MR. ADIN: Oh, well my understanding was

6 that 10 CFR 50 requires pumps to comply with that

7 ASME pressure vessel code.

8 MR. POWERS: Okay. But you have

9 pressure vessel requirements that say section 3

10 won't have -- I have seen it both ways.

11 MR. ADIN: Okay.

12 MR. POWERS: You can look at it but it

13 might be worthwhile to check it.

14 MR. ADIN: No I mean that's something we

15 have to deal with.

16 MR. POWERS: And the pumps for -- I

17 think we have those specs listed, you guys just

18 have to figure out how you want to do that?

19 MR. ADIN: Yes. I actually I spent a

20 fair amount of time researching those and the list

21 you gave me was helpful but there are more. Also

22 we want to make sure we are -- [Discussion]
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1 MR. ADIN: And so if I told you there

2 would be a categorical way to express that --

3 MR. POWERS: Right. One more question.

4 If we are going to list the others, doesn't it

5 make sense to list positive displacement and waste

6 water or leave that out.

7 MR. ADIN: I think we used -- in our

8 scope, I think Chuck's expression, how do you

9 express that?

10 MR. POWERS: Yeah.

11 MR. ADIN: The language in and what we

12 would probably do is in the standard we'd say

13 these standards apply to rotodynamic water pumps,

14 then list the parameters.

15 MR. POWERS: Right. Right. So what you

16 are trying to say if I understand you are saying

17 really this sheet definition goes along with one

18 or two other sheets. You spell out the parameters

19 and you say this -- so the bottom line if anybody

20 were to read off these sheets --

21 MR. ADIN: Right

22 MR POWERS: -- it clearly says there
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1 won't be any ambiguity or anybody sneaks something

2 in sideways or something.

3 MR. ADIN: Right. So you look at the

4 standards and say okay my pump is one of these

5 types.

6 MR. POWERS: Right.

7 MR. ADIN: It is rotodynamic. It is

8 within all these parameters. Oh is it a clean

9 water pump. Then you look at this.

10 MR. POWERS: Right.

11 MR. ADIN: Then you say okay, it is a

12 clean water pump. Is it -- but is it a nuclear

13 pump that's out.

14 MR. POWERS: Then also you look at this I

15 guess.

16 MR. ADIN: This is an implementation of

17 that, yes.

18 MR. POWERS: So then in that case the

19 axial type displacement of all these others --

20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah we don't have to --

21 in the -- like the standards would have you know

22 standards for each of these ones in green and so
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1 if you had an axial flow pump there just wouldn't

2 be a standard for it.

3 MR. ADIN: I think maybe Chuck's

4 question is do we need to determine how to define

5 what it shows in this --

6 MS. WILLIAMS: If there is not a table

7 for it then --

8 MR. ADIN: Oh yeah if it is not in the

9 table

10 --

11 MR. POWERS: Yeah.

12 MS. WILLIAMS: It is not there.

13 MR. POWERS: Right.

14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: And so -- and I noticed

16 because I didn't notice it at first that is page 5

17 there and on page 6 you are offering an actual

18 definition of it? Lucas?

19 MR. ADIN: Right. So on the next slide

20 actually we've already talked about this.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

22 MR. ADIN: A reasonable extent.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: You mean during the

2 previous meeting. Right. Definitely we talked

3 about this at considerable length.

4 MR. ADIN: The bigger idea really is in

5 defining what constitutes a clean water pump --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

7 MR. ADIN: -- what is the universe of

8 pumps that are designed in our application that

9 don't have special features that are intended for

10 pumping other things. So how do we reasonably

11 exclude those things without -- how do we keep

12 from excluding things we don't need to exclude?

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. How do you stop

14 an escape hatch for those that might wish to claim

15 that they are not clean water?

16 MR. ADIN: Yeah when it comes down to --

17 we can -- people in this room agree what a clean

18 water pump is for and I don't think we have any

19 question about that but --

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

21 MR. ADIN: -- when the day comes when a

22 standard applies to all these things, on a pump
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1 sitting on the shelf and, on what basis do we --

2 does someone decide whether that pump is subject

3 to standards and otherwise meets all the criteria;

4 it is one of the types that otherwise seems to be

5 clean water applications. What is the

6 characteristic?

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

8 MR. CAPPELLLNO: Charlie Cappellino. So

9 in that event that somebody tries to get something

10 excluded.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

12 MR. CAPPELLINO: And it wasn't clear

13 within the actual legislature, the rules, --

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- are the meeting

16 minutes, that they then be used to clarify a point

17 that may not be clear in the rules themselves, the

18 meeting minutes of this discussion or not.

19 MR. ADIN: Well I am sure that are

20 interpretations. Let me -- [Discussion]

21 MS. KOHL: Well I mean it just depends

22 on the facts of the specific enforcement case. I
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1 mean I don't know that our enforcement board would

2 want to rely on this --

3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah.

4 MS. KOHL: I mean, that is right. We

5 are trying to --

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- past practices.

7 MS. KOHL: We don't have past practice.

8 MR. ADIN: Yeah, I am not aware that it

9 has ever been done that way.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: That is fine.

11 MR. ADIN: So it -- there are always

12 questions about what was intended during the rule

13 making process.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.

15 MR. ADIN: But again like that is -- and

16 we have to rely on that --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.

18 MR. LIN: Paul Lin from Regal Beloit.

19 Just since we've added the swimming pool pumps I

20 just want to maybe ask again the specific gravity

21 that was mentioned on that clean water definition

22 that would not exclude chlorinated water or salt
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1 water type pool water; correct.

2 MR. HUBER: No.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber says no.

4 MR. HUBER: It wasn't excluded.

5 MR. LIN: Just asking from an electrical

6 engineering.

7 [Laughter]

8 MR. BROOKMAN: 25 milligrams per cubic

9 meter free solid content; dissolved content 50

10 milligrams per cubic meter. Okay. Louis Starr?

11 MR. STARR: So I have a question. If

12 you have most building systems are designed if you

13 put glycol in there you are going to get a minus

14 10 C -- like 20 degrees F is that right? Something

15 like that. Anyway you would put enough glycol in

16 there that you would be more around zero or a

17 little bit less for protecting your water systems.

18 So does that mean -- does that have any

19 ramifications on those kind of pumps or how does

20 that -- because then it is not really clean water

21 anymore yet you are using to pump buildings around

22 they think it is clean water?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought -- I may have

2 misunderstood you. I thought this reading of this

3 definition made that possible. Maybe I

4 misunderstood you.

5 MR. LIN: It says prevent water from

6 freezing at a minimum of minus 10.

7 MR. HUBER: And it says disregarding any

8 additives.

9 MR. LIN: Oh. Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Up to a minimum of minus

11 10.

12 MR. HUBER: I think you are okay.

13 MR. POTTS: So if it is colder than that

14 you would need more additives and that is not a

15 clean water pump anymore; am I understanding --?

16 MR. HUBER: Probably not --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: It is minus 10 C.

18 So this is -- this was an important

19 point of discussion at our last meeting. The

20 manufacturing caucus representatives were very

21 clear that clean water definition the intent and

22 the definition itself in some form would be very,
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1 very helpful to them as they reach out to their

2 various members and also in other activities. So

3 Lucas so as a next step -- what is the next step

4 on these clean water definition, these two pages?

5 Is there one at this point?

6 MR. ADIN: Well I mean I don't know that

7 --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie I am coming back to

9 you.

10 MR. ADIN: -- to be real honest I don't

11 know that these particular things keep us from

12 proceeding with the analysis that we need to do.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.

14 MR. ADIN: I mean we've voted on scope

15 at least for our purposes we understand what it

16 is.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.

18 MR. ADIN: This really gets to more how

19 do we make regulation air tight.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

21 MR. ADIN: And maybe that is more for

22 DOE to try to figure out. Now that we know what
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1 the exceptions are we can go and try and craft

2 something and like I said I don't think it is the

3 task of this committee to decide -- to vote on

4 every single piece of regulatory wording.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay.

6 MR. ADIN: Then we would have an awfully

7 long negotiation. So --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Arnie you are

9 next?

10 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. I was

11 on the webinar when this discussion occurred. And

12 then I was skeptical about the 0.25 kilograms per

13 cubic meter; and when this subject came up related

14 on 40.6 as defining the water that would be

15 acceptable to test with we used 1050 kilograms per

16 cubic meter which would allow salt water to be

17 tested, to be used as the test media on pumps. And

18 that math doesn't compare to the 0.25 kilograms

19 per cubic meter. So and I am fine with that

20 definition. Of course we were defining clear

21 water for tests; you have got a definition for

22 clean water for the pump as it's used. But I know
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1 that there was a discussion at the time that that

2 felt like that would include salt water on the

3 group; was it not?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Definitely -- no this

5 was meant to be inclusive of salt water I believe.

6 MR. SDANO: I think a cubic meter of

7 water weighs 1000 kilograms and it is nowhere near

8 3% in the salt water ones.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe we need to get

10 some additional --

11 UNIDENTIFEID PERSON: Dissolved salt

12 content of kilograms per cubic meters; that

13 doesn't cover it?

14 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I don't think so.

15 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That would be two

16 five.

17 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That would be five

18 grams per cubic meter; that would be like --

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It is free solid content.

20 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Okay.

21 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: 15 divided by

22 1000.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: You say salt water

2 is

3 3%.

4 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That would be the

5 same.

6 MR. SDANO: All right. So it does mesh

7 then?

8 And the other thing we did on 40.6 is we

9 specified obviously a stricter temperature limits

10 and we specified a maximum kinematic viscosity as

11 well.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks. And maybe

13 after break, maybe we will have your presentation

14 today.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: I have a question.

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison. So thanks for

17 raising it Arnie because you confirmed the basic

18 parameters that are in this definition. Alison?

19 MS. WILLIAMS: So you guys had previously

20 said you intended to cover gray water as well in

21 this -- I really don't know what is in gray water.

22 MR. HUBER: You don't want to know.
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1 [Laughter]

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to suggest as

3 a reward for being so productive that we take a

4 break. It is now 2:55, let's take a 15 minute

5 break and then maybe before -- do you know what

6 time this -- the Dunkin Donut closes?

7 MS. WILLIAMS: Five minutes.

8 MR. BROOKMAN: So you can go get a coke

9 or a cup of coffee. Yeah.

10 So we will resume at ten after three. Go

11 quickly.

12 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)

13 MR. BROOKMAN: What I thought would be

14 good to do next is especially since we just had a

15 break and we are fresh would be to hear from Arnie

16 Sdano who has a presentation on 40.6. And you can

17 see that his slides have been loaded on the

18 machine. Arnie wherever you wish to stand where

19 you can project. Please take it away.

20 MR. SDANO: All right. No problem. I

21 have got nothing but an outdoor voice.

22 So I appreciate the opportunity to come
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1 and I think Alison to the next page, I have got

2 two pages trying to convince, we know the NGOs

3 have nothing but goodness in their heart but

4 trying to convince the HI guys are the same way.

5 So the first couple of pages are PR for the

6 Hydraulics Institute although I didn't copy a --

7 out of one of the test arrangements for a vertical

8 turbine pump and a suction can, clearly different

9 than a VS8 in my mind, the difference between the

10 two technologies. So radically different. But

11 that is the kind of test arrangement that we show

12 in the standard.

13 The Hydraulic Institute is a nonprofit

14 trade organization representing the pump

15 manufacturers. We try to deliver comprehensive

16 standards to the industry. We try to expand the

17 knowledge of pumps because the better that they

18 are applied to the users of the pumps. And we

19 serve as a forum for exchange of information.

20 Next slide. The standards are adopted

21 in the public interest and we try to negotiate our

22 way through to get customers to understand how to
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1 apply pumps properly instead of looking at the

2 lowest initial cost. We are always in favor of

3 them having a proper pump installation meaning

4 that it is efficient for them and therefore the

5 pump is going to be a happy pump and operating a

6 long time. And we try to educate the pump using

7 community in torque set. But the use of the

8 standards are entirely voluntary.

9 Next. So the purpose of 40.6 is we

10 wanted to draft a test standard that would have

11 quite a bit of rigor to it and that is based on

12 obviously what we are doing here of negotiating

13 with the future DOE regulations to be around

14 those. And so these are defined to a pretty

15 comprehensive level. We had initially put in some

16 MEI elements and under Sarah Widder's guidance we

17 extracted most of that information and said we

18 will leave acceptance up to this committee to

19 decide what is going to happen making

20 recommendations to the DOE and then we will allow

21 the DOE to give us the final regulations of what

22 the rule acceptance will be.
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1 So instead it was a testing protocol

2 where we talk about what instrumentation is

3 allowed, the maximum fluctuation of the

4 instrumentation, maximum uncertainty of the

5 values, test arrangements, the methodology of

6 calculating like you saw in the first slide that

7 showed for a vertical turbine pump and suction

8 can.

9 We've done quite a bit eliminating the

10 speed of rotation, the temperature limits, the

11 loss definitions, the calculation methods, the

12 reporting and the calibration of the

13 instrumentation. They are all pretty strictly

14 defined.

15 We had talked earlier about the

16 definition of clean. Well we've defined clear

17 water and we defined it as a temperature range of

18 10 degrees to 30 degrees C. And it had a maximum

19 viscosity of 1.5 times to the minus six meters

20 squared per second. And a maximum density of 1050

21 kilograms per cubic meter which is very similar to

22 the definition of clean water. And we did that to
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1 avoid the necessity for calculations for

2 corrections of viscosity or corrections for

3 density. Although the density corrections are

4 relatively clear. The committee had quite a bit

5 of discussion of what you do on temperature and

6 viscosity corrections that are not so clear. So

7 we thought it would be best to limit the

8 temperature operation so that -- more strictly

9 than it is by the 14.6 test standard or the ISO

10 9906 in order to avoid the capability for someone

11 to come up with a different answer.

12 Next. I am not sure that the 14.6 and

13 the 9906 have an ISO standard have been made

14 normative. So our standard is based on the grade 2

15 testing level and we've done some pretty extensive

16 dive through some of the unique pump

17 configurations to make sure that we understand how

18 to define efficiencies so there are separate

19 description area in the standard of vertically

20 suspended pumps or submersible pumps, defining

21 where the losses are, what's to be included,

22 what's not to be included. We've been more
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1 restrictive on the fluid temperature and the

2 viscosity. We mandated the appendix H out of 14.6

3 which is the reporting of the test results. We've

4 made the Appendix I measurement equipment is now

5 normative as well. And we've been pretty

6 restrictive. We've thrown out many of the means

7 that were in 14.6. For example weigh tanks were

8 allowed. We didn't know how you would define

9 steady state using a weigh tank for measuring the

10 flow and so we decided let's exclude that from the

11 standard.

12 Appendix J the time periods for

13 calibration is made normative instead of

14 informative like it is in 9906. We also added

15 extra instrumentation in there that some of it

16 that wasn't there that we decided better go into

17 there as well. And we've mandated seven test

18 points for the 60, 75, 90, 110, 120 percent of the

19 best efficiency point. Hopefully that will cover

20 whatever the DOE decides to regulate relative to

21 the extended product and how you would use that.

22 But again this standard really has none of that in
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1 it as far as what the equipment criteria is going

2 to be. But we tried to make it as flexible down

3 road as we could.

4 MR. POTTS: I have a question.

5 MR. SDANO: Yes.

6 MR. POTTS: Excuse me. As a purchaser of

7 pumps with these seven test points do you see that

8 -- oftentimes when we purchase pumps we request

9 certified testing; do you think that most

10 manufacturers will go with those seven testing

11 points as part of that certified testing. Or is

12 that something that --

13 MR. SDANO: Oh for certification of the

14 equipment we will have to. But unless you were to

15 specify 40.6 as your criteria --

16 MR. POTTS: Okay.

17 MR. SDANO: -- most likely you would end

18 up specifying the 14.6 existing standard and there

19 would be no change to the test cost.

20 MR. POTTS: I see.

21 MR. SDANO: But frankly what we find and

22 probably most pump manufacturers would agree the
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1 number of test points almost doesn't matter in

2 comparison to the time that is set up a pump for

3 test.

4 MR. HUBER: That is correct.

5 MR. SDANO: It is much more extensive.

6 MR. POWERS: There is a difference

7 between test points and the guarantee point --

8 MR. SDANO: That is right.

9 MR. POWERS: That needs to be clarified.

10 Some customers will take that as saying you are

11 guaranteeing something.

12 MR. SDANO: And again we extracted all

13 the elements of -- this was -- is not an

14 acceptance test standard; so guaranteed points

15 were extracted. That whole verbiage around it

16 which is inherent in the 14.6 had been extracted.

17 MR. TOWSLEY: Arnie?

18 MR. SDANO: Yeah.

19 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley from

20 Grundfos. I guess the question for DOE or

21 Navigant we've been talking of a metric being at

22 50%. Does it matter that the minimum set of test
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1 points don't mention 50%. Or should it be --

2 MS. WIDDER: So --

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.

4 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. This is Sarah

5 Widder.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Stand up, Sarah.

7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the minimum was

8 set in test points for the purposes of 40.6 are

9 primarily around establishing BEP flow --

10 MR. TOWSLEY: Okay.

11 MS. WIDDER: -- for the pump and

12 establishing the BEP point.

13 MR. TOWSLEY: Uh-huh.

14 MS. WIDDER: To the extent that there

15 are -- you know we still have not established what

16 load points will be used in the metric. But to

17 the extent that the load points in the metric are

18 different than those that the pump is tested under

19 there would need to be some agreement. And it

20 could either be a calculation based interpolation

21 of some sort or it could be just specifying 50 as

22 one of the seven. There could be a number of ways
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1 that that crosswalk could be made. But yeah that

2 is a good point. But this -- at least --

3 MR. SDANO: Or this could be adopted

4 with some min vent tax strike around what those

5 points are.

6 MS. WIDDER: Yes, so I think that is a

7 minor detail. But these are -- those points are

8 specified mostly for establishing BEP at the pump.

9 MR. SDANO: I mean if we are dealing

10 with the --- right? We are doing this all at the

11 same time and obviously something -- we have to

12 realize that this could give. So --

13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

14 Another quick question. Does this standard need

15 to be passed and approved prior to DOE accepting

16 this as a test procedure or --

17 MR. SDANO: Yes.

18 MR. TOWSLEY: Okay. So we could not adopt

19 a test procedure that incorporates by reference an

20 industry standard that has not been approved by

21 that organization.

22 MS. WIDDER: Anything specific is not
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1 publicly available. It had to be --

2 MR. TOWLSEY: It does.

3 MR. SDANO: Next slide please.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.

6 MR. SDANO: So the draft right now is --

7 -- for balloting for the standards voting

8 representation from HI. And that is going to

9 close April 4. I know that as of last Thursday we

10 had six returned ballots already. And we are

11 looking at some time slots to have teleconferences

12 to review. But it will close in about a week and a

13 half. And we intend to have committee

14 teleconferences to go through and smooth out

15 whatever errors that have been discovered or

16 comments that we receive. The final document we

17 are on track for putting it over to the DOE by May

18 15.

19 And I would really like to thank Sarah

20 Widder for her valued input into the development

21 of the standard and a lot of effort that she has

22 made on this as well.
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1 So any questions.

2 I did ask for an update from the

3 chairman of 40.9 which is the extended product as

4 well and pretty much they have decided to stop

5 their work until they get more direction of what

6 we decide and how we are going to apply this to an

7 extended product before they continue. So they've

8 drafted a pretty extensive standard and said okay

9 we really have to wait until some decisions are

10 made before we can go any further on it.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you Arnie.

12 MR. SDANO: All right.

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Charlie's got a

14 question.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just want to

16 recognize Arnie as well. I sat in on some of

17 these meetings, there was a tremendous number, I

18 don't know how many there were but at least ten or

19 12 meetings, phone conferences. And Arnie and

20 Sarah led all of those and they did a real nice

21 job of a very complex task at deriving something

22 pretty quickly frankly.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So thanks Arnie.

2 [Applause]

3 MR. BROOKMAN: And it was well

4 presented.

5 Just going basically in order almost in

6 order on the agenda side, slide number 2 that you

7 have in front of you, excuse me, the item that we

8 haven't taken up yet is right in the middle of the

9 page, applicability of standard pumps with non10 electric drivers. I had a brief conversation with

11 Steve Rosenstock at the break and he was saying

12 that VT pumps since they were excluded from the

13 scope, a lot of agricultural pumps are VT pumps or

14 at least some --

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That is what I was --

16 yes -

17 -

18 MR. BROOKMAN: And so Steve maybe you

19 could lead off this discussion about how you think

20 the current scope relates to non-electric drivers

21 because you sent an email -- actually a memo

22 around as well.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes two weeks ago. I

2 don't know if you want to bring that up from a

3 couple of weeks ago. I was able to find some data

4 at least just purely on the agricultural sector

5 and this -- just start at the top. Basically

6 again this is all public data. Steve Rosenstock,

7 EEI. This is basically -- the USDA does a survey

8 of the agricultural sector. They actually show

9 data for more pumping, for pumps being used by

10 farms. And basically they do it every five years.

11 The 2013 data is not out yet unfortunately. So

12 this was the most recent for the agricultural

13 sector and they break it out in their tables in

14 terms of what is out there in the U.S.

15 agricultural sector. And just to

16 highlight real quick 69% of the pumps used in

17 agricultural sector are electric pumps. The other

18 31% are diesel, natural gas or gasoline or

19 propane. Primarily the non-electric ones are

20 actually diesel pumps. And they also submitted

21 some links where in the past diesel pumps actually

22 outnumbered electric pumps way back when 30, 40,
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1 50 years ago just because in rural areas that was

2 the easiest application. You didn't have to worry

3 about running lines or anything and just the

4 easiest - quickest to install basically.

5 So if you scroll down all I did was the

6 first cut basically -- basically also shown in the

7 table how much they spent on energy and this is

8 for say 2007, this is how much they spent on

9 pumping energy in I'll say 2007, 2008 and again

10 they broke it out by type. I just did the

11 percentages. Again first cut. And then I said

12 well I will just take the first cut I will just

13 say -- I'll assume some prices based on 2008 data

14 that I saw at EIA just to get some round numbers

15 in terms of what some of the site energy usage is

16 by energy type. Diesel and gasoline were the most

17 interesting because remember in 2008 they spiked

18 it over $4.00 and then crashed down to $2.00. So

19 I just used $3.00 as an annualized average for

20 that year, so it captures the price variation.

21 Again this is just the first cut. Here

22 is what is going on in terms of some of the
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1 numbers. And then at the bottom I just said well

2 again this was cited I didn't do any sort of

3 analysis because of regional issues. 58% was

4 again this is just agriculture at site not as much

5 at the site as possible, 41% was electricity and

6 then it just shows some other articles I found in

7 terms of -- just other articles and other news

8 articles especially from agricultural type of

9 publications in terms of what they said how much

10 energy was being used.

11 Again this was just the agricultural

12 sector. I didn't find any as good data for either

13 the commercial or industrial sector. But again --

14 and again I didn't know what we were going to do

15 in terms of the types of pumps being used. But if

16 these types of pumps were still in the picture

17 that is why I said it might still be an idea to

18 look at non-electric drivers but since we've

19 excluded most of the non- electric drivers with

20 our previous vote it probably doesn't matter -- I

21 don't know about the industrial sector what

22 percentage is electric versus non- electric. I am
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1 sure it is a lot lower than agricultural. It is

2 probably a little higher than commercial. I don't

3 have any numbers.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Maybe we can get

5 some numbers -- so general thoughts on this. Chuck

6 please?

7 MR. POWERS: A couple of observations. I

8 read Steve's report. Good data by Steve right. I

9 used to be the general manager -- I'm not trying

10 to -- general manager in our Hastings, Nebraska

11 facility which was 90% irrigation. The total

12 number of pumps he showed there 600,000 is the

13 installed base number one; right?

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

15 MR. POWERS: Well what is interesting

16 here is he is right. Back in the '30s and the

17 '40s when they were trying to get through the dust

18 bowl and all the other things that were occurring

19 it was all either diesel, even Cappellino designs

20 but also diesel engine drives. The diesel engines

21 you see is what is left over. Those things last

22 forever. Again they run for three months a year
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1 and they unbuckle them and take them to the house

2 and run the power from that for all kinds of

3 different activities used. But the actual new

4 diesel installations is almost paying off to zero.

5 And there are a lot of factors involved. The

6 reason is then the advent of the center pivots

7 came along. The early years it was all ground

8 irrigation; right. Then the center pivots came

9 along. The center pivots all three of the

10 manufacturers in the world today are within 30

11 miles of the center of the state of Nebraska near

12 Hastings, Nebraska. All three of them and they

13 ship them all around the world. The original

14 center pivots were actually water driven. Actually

15 platelets that actually -- they actually drove

16 them by water. Then they went to small electric

17 motors on each of the -- well actually it had a --

18 believe it or not it had a U-shaft type design you

19 have the diesel engine driving the shaft going

20 down to gear boxes and driving each wheel. They

21 ran into problems, the center pivots got twisted,

22 bent and out of control. Then they went to
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1 electric drives. And now they've gone full

2 extents where hills and holes and all that where

3 some of them slow down and the others catch up and

4 all. The point is an electricity build is that

5 entire operation, not just the pump now. When a

6 farmer flips the switch he is regulating how much

7 power. So you've got the center pivot running 24

8 hours a day in a circle, each of those little

9 electrical motors. Now you've got a 25 horse

10 turbine pump running that is absorbing x power but

11 then you've got a center pivot with -- it depends

12 on how big these gangs are. Most of them are

13 quarter miles; right -- or quarter section I

14 should say. And these things are quite

15 --

16 MR. ECKMAN: 125 radius.

17 MR. POWERS: The full quarter mile --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: 125 acres?

19 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.

20 MR. POWERS: Because it is square tenths

21 of a horsepower.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Wow.
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1 MR. ECKMAN: who knows some of them might

2 be ECM someday.

3 [Laughter]

4 MR. POWERS: Great. The horsepower is

5 really low on them but the gearing is incredible.

6 They have other types of systems and the actual

7 farmer can be out there in another field, drive

8 his tractor, he turns on the computer and he can

9 see how far the center pivot is. It takes

10 basically three days to make a full circle; right.

11 But they go into drip irrigation. They've really

12 improved a lot of stuff and there is still a lot

13 to go. So what we've got to be careful of as we

14 look at data and try and understand where is the

15 direction it is going. Now because of the natural

16 gas though things are starting to change again.

17 They are saying should we have that gas driven

18 units and then in California -- each, Nebraska is

19 one version, California has others because Gary

20 will tell you California is different than

21 everybody else and it is. But there are other

22 places around the world in Saudi Arabia, there are
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1 places in Florida where they keep the trees from

2 freezing by flooding the fields but that is only

3 for like a two week period during the freeze

4 season before the season starts right. There is a

5 lot of variabilities here we've got to pay

6 attention to.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Well thank you

8 for that. Gary?

9 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So just

10 in contrast we have electric only sales in the

11 South Joaquin Valley where we compete with the

12 Southern California Gas Company. And to kind of

13 support Steve's perspective on the multi fuel

14 drive for these pumps the gas company is coming

15 out and running pipes and nipping off our electric

16 motor drives. So it has been a competitive issue

17 for us to see these pumps being converted to

18 natural gas engines.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting.

20 MR. POWERS: But in Nebraska they also

21 have gotten to the point they are outlawing gas

22 driving -- natural gas because what is the setup
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1 that it does -- what is one of the biggest

2 products of Nebraska. It is the second largest

3 tornado and lightning strike area, number one is

4 Florida. Number two is Nebraska. What happens to

5 a big steel center pivot when there is lightning

6 storm going by. It becomes a lightning rod and

7 you see things -- they are blowing up these things

8 left and right with lightning strikes. So they

9 are trying to get away from natural gas because

10 they've learned it is a problem. Maybe your

11 friend in southern California will learn the hard

12 way too.

13 [Laughter]

14 MR. CASE: Now you've got a new sales

15 pitch.

16 MR. FERNSTROM: We are -- our company

17 has enough trouble with natural gas issues for

18 those of you familiar with it.

19 MR. CASE: You guys have got to say we

20 are a grounding strap and -- [Laughter]

21 MR. CASE: -- and they are a bomb.

22 MR. ECKMAN: It is really earthquakes --
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1 MR CASE: But Gary your company was

2 Pacific Gas and Electric.

3 [Laughter]

4 MR. BROOKMAN: So multiple contributions

5 from members there.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I mean obviously and

7 also there are environmental laws especially with

8 the --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- if the EPA ratchets

11 it up the ozone non-attainment area, that can have

12 an impact as well. I mean there are a lot of

13 moving parts in this market but this was just a

14 snapshot, just -- but since we've kind of excluded

15 a lot of those pumps it might not make a

16 difference but if leaving in there then it might

17 now -- I'm starting to think of fuel neutrality.

18 But then we kind of -- we have already excluded

19 most of those -- I'll say those non-electric

20 drivers anyway but then it is not as big a deal

21 now.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So thinking just
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1 let me ask the members present and thank you Steve

2 for presenting and for doing that memo and for

3 that last comment. Based on what we've included

4 in scope are there many non-electric drivers that

5 are going to be subject to this scope? Are there

6 -- is it 95%, 99% where are we with that?

7 Al Huber?

8 MR. HUBER: If you were going down -- it

9 just depends if you were going down to real small

10 horsepowers and you've got some end suction pumps

11 being driven by gasoline engines, most of those

12 are for consumers or private residential areas.

13 And most of them are temporary type situations.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: What are they used for?

15 MR. HUBER: People us them for

16 irrigation, they will throw them in a creek

17 somewhere, they are not supposed to but they do.

18 They throw them in a creek somewhere --

19 MR. ECKMAN: Or in their pond.

20 MR. HUBER: -- or in a pond, yes or to

21 irrigate with small area, maybe their yard or

22 maybe their garden or whatever. They use it for a
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1 basement to pump out a basement, those kinds of

2 things.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas?

4 MR. ADIN: So the other -- so I guess

5 that actually answered part of my question how

6 many of these pumps are realistically within the

7 horsepower flow, head range that we are looking

8 at?

9 MR. HUBER: Probably none.

10 MR. ADIN: Yeah. And so the other aspect

11 that we were considering was if there are design

12 improvements made --

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That is a different

14 standard.

15 [Laughter]

16 MR. ADIN: A pump that is used with a

17 non- electric driver may have already benefited

18 from some of those efficiency --

19 MR. HUBER: right.

20 MR. ADIN: You would still see some

21 savings.

22 MR. HUBER: Right.
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1 MR. POWERS: That kind of gets back --

2 this is Chuck that kind of gets back to talking to

3 the agency about their pumps.

4 MR. ADIN: Right.

5 MR. POWERS: A lot of them are being

6 shipped there for OSO.

7 MR. ADIN: Right.

8 MR. POWERS: The standard impacts their

9 pump -- [Conversations]

10 MR. ADIN: I think the main thing we

11 wanted to make sure we had clear was what are we

12 using as the basis for the metric. Like if you

13 are assuming it is an electric driver that greatly

14 simplifies --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That is what I wanted to

16 explore; precisely that.

17 MR. ADIN: Because otherwise

18 prospectively you might have a test, a metric that

19 includes engines for -- so we just want to make

20 sure we are clear about how all that --

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

22 Steve Rosenstock?
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

2 And yeah since we approved the definition it does

3 keep it in the scope so that if let's say gas

4 engines starts skyrocketing, DOE can come back and

5 say all right they are now 30% of the market, we

6 need a separate test procedure for those gas

7 turbines or those gas engines or DSEs or whatever.

8 So and you have the ability to expand the scope

9 again if you want to adjust to the market

10 conditions. So --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I am already to a

13 neutral though because you've limited the scope it

14 really doesn't matter at this point.

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But since you kept it

17 in the definition we voted to that way you have

18 the ability and the authority to regulate them as

19 you see if there are any -- if anything starts

20 skyrocketing et cetera.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, just to clarify or

22 confirm Lucas just stated that if it's electric
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1 only that is going to really simplify things. That

2 then the question would be and Steve's comments

3 were helpful, is that going to be sufficient for

4 our purposes here and now.

5 Joanna?

6 MS. MAUER: I just want to clarify that

7 if the manufacturer is shipping a pump with an

8 engine but the bare pump would still be subject to

9 --

10 MR. HUBER: Yes.

11 MS. MAUER: -- bare pump standards and I

12 guess the metric would still assume that it is

13 driven by a direct motor but --

14 MR. ADIN: Right. That is effectively

15 how this would -- the rating would be based upon

16 the use of the electric motor but the pump would

17 still see a hydraulic efficiency improvement. So

18 --

19 MR. HUBER: Basically if we were to test

20 it, we wouldn't test it with an engine anyway. We

21 would test the pump with an electric motor. So --

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Is there anything
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1 else to be said on this subject?

2 Just checking.

3 MR. ADIN: That satisfies my original

4 question.

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So it is -- do we

6 want to start talking about metrics?

7 MS. WIDDER: Could we maybe vote on that

8 issue.

9 MR. ADIN: So --

10 MS. WIDDER: -- looking at me?

11 [Laughter]

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd be willing to move it

13 but I don't think I've obtained clarity enough on

14 --

15 MR. ADIN: Well what I was going to say

16 is I think the vote on the metric will take care

17 of that.

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.

19 MS. WIDDER: So do you want to just talk

20 about metric then?

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah what would you want

22 us to vote on?
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: That in this rule making

2 the metric will not cover non-electric motors.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I think -- I guess

5 for me that will happen now or later when we vote

6 on the metric.

7 MS. BROOKMAN: Right.

8 MS. WIDDER: And there are a lot of

9 other things to vote on in the metric like the

10 general framework and the load points and the

11 weighting and the denominator. There is a lot of

12 nitty gritty details so I was thinking if we could

13 establish up front that we are just going to talk

14 about electric motors as the driver --

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds like a

16 productive thing for us to do. Shall we do that?

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Only for this rule

18 making?

19 MS. WIDDER: Only for this discussion at

20 this very moment.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So maybe -- I

22 think that is not a bad idea. Anybody got a
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1 serious problem with doing that? It will make

2 things simpler. Let me note also at the last

3 meeting I thought we made a lot of progress on the

4 issue of metrics. There was a lot of confirmation

5 in the room and we didn't do many voting or

6 anything like that but I did a lot of thumbnail of

7 confirmation as we were going along.

8 So Chuck do you have a comment before --

9 MR. POWERS: I have a question.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

11 MR. POWERS: It gets back to everything

12 we talked about. So Sarah let me ask you or

13 Alison so if a manufacturer has a pump and he

14 applies a diesel engine to it could he bypass this

15 standard?

16 MS. WIDDER: No.

17 MS. WILLIAMS: No.

18 MR. POWERS: You know what I am saying -

19 -

20 MS. WILLIAMS: His bare shaft pump still

21 has to meet.

22 MR. POWERS: So when you showed that one
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1 chart you are showing bare pump products. It

2 doesn't matter the drivers?

3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.

4 MR. POWERS: So when you go to definition

5 our standard is only electric motors we are not

6 going to have some knucklehead try to sneak in

7 with diesel and say oh it doesn't apply; right?

8 MS. WIDDER: and I think that is a really

9 good point --

10 MR. POWERS: I am just asking because I

11 want to make sure.

12 MS. WIDDER: -- because maybe we want to

13 specify when we talk about the metric or somehow

14 in the definitions that a bare pump test

15 calculation approach is applicable to bare pumps

16 and --

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Any driver.

18 MS. WIDDER: -- bare pumps with non19 electric drivers.

20 MR. POWERS: And how is that worded if

21 you are going -- this is Chuck -- with that

22 electric somebody will sneak in and say well I
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1 have got a diesel and --

2 MS. WIDDER: Yep, yep. I think that is

3 worth clarifying.

4 MR. ADIN: I think the only possible

5 situation in which pump within the parameters that

6 we have defined might not be covered is if it is a

7 pump that is like integrated with an engine, like

8 it is not a bare pump, it is driven by an engine,

9 it's the whole thing is one. I am not aware that

10 there is any such thing.

11 MR. POWERS: Well the fire pump --

12 MR. ADIN: Except for fire pumps.

13 MR. POWERS: But you have got that

14 excluded anyway.

15 MR. ADIN: Right.

16 MR. HUBER: It is possible --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: the last thing you said.

18 You are not aware of what? Lucas?

19 MR. ADIN: And I guess it is an open

20 question really is there such a thing as -- I

21 don't know if you would consider it like a -- kind

22 of a close coupled pump --
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1 MR. HUBER: You could --

2 MR. ADIN: -- engine.

3 MR. HUBER: -- shaft --

4 MR. ADIN: There are close --

5 MR. HUBER: -- motor to the fly.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Al. Arnie?

7 MR ADIN: It would fall within --

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Test them --

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie?

10 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. We do

11 make a pump like that and it is for fertilization

12 where it is tractor mount and you know it is

13 driven by an engine directly. But the fact that

14 it is pumping chemicals would exclude it anyway.

15 MS. WILLILAMS: So even if it is

16 integrated you could -- if there did happen to be

17 one you could test it with an electric motor.

18 MR. HUBER: You could.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.

20 MR. SDANO: Again Arnie -- Arnie Sdano,

21 Pentair. We -- when we did 40.6 this discussion

22 occurred and we decided on 40.6 that yes there are
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1 calibrated motors is kind of inherent to it but we

2 said we have got to include torque meters as well

3 for the other types of drivers or for non4 calibrated motors as well. So that is in the 40.6

5 test standard as well.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So does that mean you are

7 covered?

8 MR. HUBER: Yes.

9 MR. STANO: I believe so.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg you are next?

11 MR. CASE: I was just going to comment

12 on that close coupled I used to work for a company

13 that made these and we made them for the military

14 desalination. They run them up off the beach with

15 these things, fire them up and pull salt water and

16 create fresh water. Those pumps were not

17 different pumps than electrically driven pumps.

18 They just happen to be close couple to an engine.

19 So they wouldn't have gotten around the standard

20 to begin with.

21 MR. ADIN: Right. I think that is the

22 main thing we are concerned about as long as you
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1 can rate them for the process we are talking about

2 basically using electric driver that is --

3 MR. POWERS: And the only other one that

4 comes close is fire trucks. The center of the

5 fire truck is the heart and they call it the pump

6 and it has got a PTO drive shaft right on the back

7 side of the engine. When these guys pull up you

8 hear the engine running. We always wonder why is

9 that fire truck engine running good and loud at

10 high RPMs because he is driving the pump that is

11 in the center of the truck. And these things are

12 very unique designs and special. They look like

13 hearts because they've got valves and pipes in all

14 directions. We are in the heart of it.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But the hours of

16 operation are going to be --

17 MR. POWERS: Oh yeah it is a different

18 ballgame.

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Excuse me folks. One at

20 a time. Al Huber.

21 MS. WIDDER: I hope --

22 MR. HUBER: The pump on the -- most of
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1 the pumps on the fire trucks are not in any of

2 these categories that are in our scope anyway so I

3 don't think you've got to --

4 MR. POWERS: Right.

5 MR. ADIN: I'm only talking about the

6 pumps inside the scope.

7 MR. HUBER: The only one there would be

8 -- would probably be end suction.

9 MR. ADIN: Okay.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am noting that

11 Alison has written up there proposal for

12 vote which reads good to me. It reads as follows:

13 In this rulemaking -- this is like an

14 eye chart -- the metric will not cover non15 electric drivers. The test procedure will specify

16 that the bare pump calculations also apply to

17 pumps with non- electric drivers.

18 I think that is well written right

19 there. So shall we do this; let's have a vote on

20 this.

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Bare pump efficiency

22 calculation?
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: It further clarifies the

2 scope.

3 Steve we didn't hear you.

4 MS. WIDDER: Metric.

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Because it might not be

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Now it is big enough that

7 you all can read it.

8 I am about to call the question. Are we

9 ready? Yes.

10 All those in favor of adopting this

11 proposal which would limit the bare pump -- would

12 limit the non-electric drivers and also specify

13 that the test procedure -- I am not going to read

14 it all again. The test procedure would specify

15 that the bare pump rating in the calculations for

16 the energy conservation standard also apply to

17 pumps with non-electric motors. All those in favor

18 of doing that please raise your hands?

19 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

20 eight, -- so we are unanimous on that vote as

21 well.

22 So thank you Sarah. That was a useful
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1 addition.

2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I would

3 just like to observe we are on a roll.

4 [Laughter]

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Maybe we should quit

6 while we are ahead. A few more people head rolls.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am looking at the

8 agenda items and it is 3:50 just about. We have

9 as much as an hour left in the day if we chose to

10 use all of it. Should we move on to metrics now?

11 MR. ADIN: We certainly could do that.

12 We have a fairly substantial slide deck that I'm

13 having printed right now. So we will have it

14 ready so that everyone here can take it with them

15 tonight and just look it over. Let it marinate

16 before tomorrow.

17 But we could at least start the

18 discussion at least in a general sense so that we

19 are kind of cued up for tomorrow; we know what it

20 is that we want to cover.

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it is a useful

22 thing to try to do that. Chuck?
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1 MR. POWERS: I also asked so that I can

2 digest this, Alison, maybe today the stuff that we

3 voted on, those changes in this final sheets if

4 you can email that to all of us sometime before

5 the end of the day. Is that possible?

6 MR. BROOKMAN: For the ones we voted on?

7 MR. POWERS: Yeah. Right.

8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, just the voting

9 slide.

10 MR. POWERS: Whatever -- we had this one

11 and we had other ones -- just so I have --

12 MR. ADIN: Sure.

13 MR. POWERS: They're done. I mean they

14 are locked.

15 MR. ADIN: That is right.

16 MR. POWERS: If that is possible?

17 Electronically.

18 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So what we will do is

19 after we are done here is -- because we have

20 obviously a number of pieces here. So we will

21 consolidate everything that reflects what we voted

22 on and we will send that to you.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: So Sarah are you in a

2 position to --

3 MS. WIDDER: I am.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: -- cue us up.

5 MS. WIDDER: I am getting --

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you all need a five

7 minute break? Or are we okay? We are okay.

8 Okay. We will keep going.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So metric slides. So

10 the first bunch of slides are going to look very

11 similar to ones that we talked about last meeting.

12 And so it will just sort of get us back into what

13 the metric looks like, what the framework is, what

14 we want to accomplish with it. But we will go over

15 it pretty quickly. At a high level this is the

16 section as Lucas mentioned this is pretty

17 substantial slide deck. There are five sections.

18 So the review is the first initial slides I was

19 just talking about that includes that issues list

20 that we made last time with a lot of information I

21 was going to bring to this meeting. I have some

22 detailed examples for applying the test procedure
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1 to bare shaft pump, pump plus a motor, and a pump

2 plus a motor and two different types of controls

3 applying a calculation based method as well as

4 testing more like wire to water based methods for

5 the pump and motor, pump and motor and controls.

6 And then these last three are things we read off

7 last time. The load points, the weighting

8 options, and the denominator. And looking at some

9 sensitivity around what those are and hopefully

10 maybe being able to vote on those.

11 So we will just dive right in I guess.

12 At the outset I outlined them this way as if we

13 were going to go through them all. I am confident

14 we are not going to do that this afternoon. Is it

15 -- would the committee like to jump to the like

16 load point weighting sensitivity or is there a

17 particular part we went to look at today to get

18 ready for tomorrow?

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I have an observation or

20 actually a recollection. I recall at our last

21 meeting that members requested that the

22 manufacturing contingent come up with specific
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1 questions should you have any and bring them

2 forward during the course of this meeting. I

3 don't know whether you all got that well organized

4 or whether we just do this as we flow along here.

5 MR. CASE: I think we have questions as

6 we go along. I was going to suggest -- this is

7 Greg Case with HI -- that we kind of go over what

8 the issues were from the last meeting as you have

9 them there --

10 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

11 MR. CASE: And that kind of primes us

12 for tomorrow.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Okay. So I am just

14 going to start with that first bullet. We will

15 review the PER metric and get to the issues. And

16 then we will see where we are at.

17 So here is the slide you have seen a lot

18 of times, the coverage of the metric and the

19 intention that it will cover or be applicable to a

20 pump sold as a bare pump, a pump with motor or

21 plus a driver, a pump plus a driver and controls.

22 I changed this driver. Now it could be motor.
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1 So again we want our metric to

2 encapsulate or account for the energy use or

3 efficiency of the bare pump, of the driver and of

4 the controls. So we are going to have a way of

5 accounting for each item in those boxes.

6 MR. POWERS: I am sorry.

7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

8 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck, Flowserve.

9 Some of the pump guys sell bare pumps and that is

10 all they ever do. Some of the pump guys sell

11 pumps and motors. Some of them variations.

12 Customer specs may say that is one pump, -- drive

13 or two. Some may include the VFDs or whatever;

14 right. So when we do this, like you had in your

15 first chart it is independent, whatever that ends

16 up being; right.

17 MR. ADIN: So -- Lucas, the idea is that

18 the metric should be able to account for any one

19 of those configurations. So if you are only

20 selling a bare pump we should have way of coming

21 up with rating for that bare pump. We will make

22 an assumption for the motor to be useful. We will
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1 say we are going to assume for the purposes of

2 rating this pump and we will get into the details

3 of this in a little bit. But that it is a

4 minimally compliant electric motor, so it complies

5 with like a federal regulation or whatever is

6 useful so you are able to come up with a rating

7 that is based on an assumed motor. Do you see

8 what I mean. It wouldn't just be a high pump

9 efficiency. You would come up with this rating.

10 The pump would actually be used with the motor and

11 you are making an assumption about the motor that

12 will be used with that. Does that --

13 MR. POWERS: I am just trying to think

14 through as an OEM if our requirement as an OEM it

15 is a bare pump. If our requirement was a bare

16 pump and motor I understand. We are selling to

17 somebody and they are packaging and they are doing

18 whatever. They give wire to meet the three levels

19 or the two levels. Am I --

20 MR. ADIN: Understood.

21 MR. POWERS: I want to make sure I am

22 not -- in other words who is actually responsible
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1 for actually certifying the product.

2 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

3 MR. POWERS: So in other words if I can

4 understand, this is Chuck again.

5 MR. ADIN: Right.

6 MR. POWERS: If you are saying Chuck

7 these - - we never did come up with a name but

8 MR. STARR: Lot 4, there are only four of

9 them right?

10 MR. POWERS: Right. But --

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We will come up with a

12 better name.

13 MR. POWERS: For those products right.

14 If we build the product to meet those, whatever we

15 end up with; right?

16 MR. ADIN: Okay.

17 MR. POWERS: That is all we ship out

18 the door.

19 MR. ADIN: Right.

20 MR. POWERS: Some guys might package,

21 some guys might -- it just depends on the customer

22 whatever it is. We can only be responsible as an
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1 OEM for what we ship out the door.

2 MR. ADIN: Yes.

3 MR. POWERS: Now if we package it with a

4 motor and I am guessing then we would have A and B

5 and supplying the VFD they may have to meet A, B

6 and C. Now testing we would have to use the

7 appropriate motor for the testing --

8 MR. ADIN: Right.

9 MR. POWERS: -- to qualify; right?

10 MR. ADIN: Right.

11 MR. POWERS: Am I thinking wrong

12 Charlie?

13 MS. WIDDER: I feel like you are getting

14 into the details. I feel like this will become

15 clear if we walk through the examples.

16 MR. ADIN: But let me clarify.

17 MR. WIDDER: But I do want Lucas to

18 clarify something.

19 MR. ADIN: So the standard is applicable

20 to the product as distributed pumps by the

21 manufacturer. So the requirements are on the

22 manufacturer, not on anyone downstream when
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1 assembled. This is something I think we covered.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie. I

3 thought we defined a distributor who gets a bare

4 pump and assembles it with a driver was doing

5 manufacturing and that was included. I think is -

6 -

7 MR. BROOKMAN: That was a part --

8 MS. WIDDER: We have talked about that.

9 MR. CAPPELLINO: That was our

10 understanding from a legal standpoint.

11 MR. POWERS: I just --

12 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't think it was

13 resolved.

14 MS. WIDDER: It wasn't voted on.

15 MR. CAPPELLINO: It was a legal -- it

16 was a legal --

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy says that is a part

18 of the definition of --

19 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. And why

20 that is important, this is my opinion, I am just

21 trying to help. If we end up with a lion share of

22 off-shore manufacturers to jump in here, okay.
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1 They are going to be required to meet the pump.

2 They won't be shipping motors and VFDs overseas,

3 over the water; right. They will be shipping that

4 pump in the states to compete with us. And so we

5 are saying as long as they meet the pump they are

6 not -- guarantee you they are going to put their

7 hands up on the drivers and VFDs. But that local

8 guy like we would have would be packaging on that

9 stuff. He would have to meet these other

10 standards. Or else if -- do you know what I am

11 saying it would be a very unfair situation.

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.

13 MR. HUBER: Lucas I think before we had

14 a legal opinion that anyone who added that value

15 and that value changed it is our understanding

16 that anybody that added value that value change

17 was subject to this regulation because they were

18 considered a manufacturer. If they assembled or

19 altered in any way.

20 MR. ADIN: I remember that conversation.

21 And I may just be misremembering what the

22 conclusion was.
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1 MS. WIDDER: And -- I am sorry go ahead.

2 MR. POWERS: It's very important.

3 MR. ADIN: Oh it is important.

4 MR. STARR: It won't work otherwise.

5 MR. HUBER: Yeah. It won't work

6 otherwise. That is right.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Babour.

8 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour. If I

9 remember correctly they even got to the point

10 where they said they weren't going to try to

11 enforce against two guys with a screwdriver.

12 MR. ADIN: I remember that.

13 MR. BARBOUR: Because some of

14 representatives out there are not 25, 30 people

15 organizations, they could be two people in an

16 office selling a pump and putting a motor with it.

17 MR. ADIN: Yeah.

18 MR. BARBOUR: and we got the question of

19 how do you -- how are you going to regulate that?

20 MR. ADIN: All right. So the regulation

21 applies to manufacturers. I think we are talking

22 about who is the manufacturer.
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1 MR. HUBER: The definition of --

2 MR. ADIN: I might be confusing one

3 conversation with another. So I didn't mean to

4 imply that I am interpreting this differently.

5 MR. HUBER: If you are looking for

6 something that we need an answer to tomorrow, we

7 need an answer to this first thing.

8 MR. ADIN: Well to the extent that is an

9 open question today.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Actually Steve is next.

11 MR. STARR: I was going to -- the one

12 important thing Betsy is coming back. I asked her

13 on the way out. But she is definitely on board

14 with that. We left that broad definition of

15 manufacturer open. So define manufacture as one

16 who puts things together mainly distributor. And

17 it didn't go down to the level of the contractor.

18 There wasn't so much concern about that. It did

19 go to the distributor level.

20 MR. ADIN: Okay.

21 MS. WIDDER: So - sorry.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven Rosenstock.
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was going to say just

2 looking at this again I think it is after the high

3 level in my view as we go down this road in my

4 view there should be three measures from the three

5 different situations.

6 MR. HUBER: I agree.

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because you are doing

8 different tests on different sets of equipment you

9 are locking in -- like a bare pump you are locking

10 in the test equipment. The motor can't change

11 period. You can't add controls. That is a locked

12 number static efficiency. You are just checking

13 what the efficiency of that bare pump is compared

14 to the minimum standard. If it exceeds it, you are

15 done. So in my view if we are going -- if we go

16 down this road there should be in my view I hate -

17 - it is three metrics, I know it is probably three

18 test procedures. But when you think about it there

19 are three different products in a way in my view

20 because you might be designing them differently to

21 meet the different configurations. They all work

22 together but still --
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1 MR. POWERS: But there is -- sorry, just

2 a quick question. There is one other piece of

3 this -- this is Chuck that we have to be careful

4 of. If you've got and I'll take my buddy, Doug,

5 at the end of the hall here if he's got a bunch of

6 plants that he is running; right and we are or

7 even if we are going to supply them with a

8 replacement unit and they've already got a VFD and

9 they've already got a motor and all the other

10 stuff. We are just supplying the bare pump to

11 replace the unit. We can only be subject to the

12 bare pump. There is going to be a lot of that

13 business with upgrades and improvements and

14 whatever. So if we are then responsible for the

15 pump and the drive and VFD they may be old, they

16 may be out of date. We are not going to be

17 responsible for that.

18 MR. HUBER: As sold.

19 MR. POTTS: I was going to say what he

20 said. I thought that was pretty clear. It is as

21 sold. So you are not selling us the VFD or the

22 motor if we already have it.
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1 MR. POWERS: Right. But if we tie it to

2 the motors then somebody is going to hold us to

3 the --

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?

5 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. You

6 know ultimately really what happens is you get

7 your pump efficiency and everything after that is

8 calculated and we slap the label on. So if you

9 get your MEI and somehow it gets massaged, you

10 stick it in and you calculate it by number.

11 Eventually what will happen is you will actually

12 test it and get some real -- as soon as we get

13 VFDs and some other things, motor, better

14 understanding of motors and then there will be an

15 actual test procedure. But this way it is going

16 to be calculated.

17 MR. POWERS: If the motor stand down --

18 MR. STARR: But it doesn't take part

19 load into account really and it doesn't also

20 combining it with certain VFDs you get different

21 outputs.

22 MS. WIDDER: So we -- that is also a
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1 really good -- I mean all of this the issue of

2 different test procedures for different equipment

3 and calculation versus testing methods it all in

4 here. I promise you. We will talk about it at

5 length.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So you are suggesting we

7 be systematic.

8 MS. WIDDER: I am just suggesting that I

9 think the discussion of manufacturers and

10 different test procedures applicable to different

11 types of equipment and configurations of equipment

12 is exactly what this slide is trying to capture.

13 If someone is buying a replacement bare shaft pump

14 we have a metric that is able to certify that

15 product to be sold into the marketplace. And if a

16 combined -- a bare shaft pump is being combined

17 with a driver and controls we have a metric that

18 you are able to certify that pump as a combined

19 set of equipment into the marketplace. And it is

20 all about when it is distributed or sale. And I

21 think it is worth having a more lengthy discussion

22 about how we specifically define manufacturer so
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1 it is not a contractor and if I'm wanting to spec

2 a pump and a motor completely separately I'm still

3 as a customer able to do that. But that doesn't

4 have a -- the metric is designed to be flexible

5 enough to cover all these situations.

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

7 MS. WIDDER: Everyone feel satisfied

8 with that.

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Charlie?

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just the next line.

11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. We are moving on. So

12 this was the preliminary construct for the pump

13 energy rating metric that is just out there for

14 discussion so we have somewhere to start. In this

15 case the red .25s -- and this is something we

16 discussed last time -- the red .25s are equal

17 weightings for each of these separate load points

18 at BEP, 110% of BEP, 75% of BEP, and 50% of BEP

19 flow at nominal speed. So it is essentially a

20 weighted average of the input power to the pump

21 being the entire equipment set at each of those

22 load points. And so for the bare pump and the
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1 pump and driver cases it would follow the pump

2 curve, those lighter green dots and that is where

3 your load points would be and it would be a

4 weighted average of those points. And then you

5 would be able to account for the energy reduction

6 accomplished by following the system curve with

7 speed control.

8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just a -- Charlie

9 Cappellino. Just a fine point. It's a weighted

10 average if you have different numbers of .25, .25,

11 .25. The same number, it is just an average

12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. It is an average.

13 MR. CAPPELLINO: It becomes a weighted

14 average when we --

15 MS. WIDDER: If we have different

16 numbers.

17 MR. CAPELLINO: -- different numbers

18 within the -- in red.

19 MS. WIDDER: Right. It would be

20 weighted based on some other something else; a

21 load curve that we would like to see. So this is

22 a straight average. Yes.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

3 So in the -- I just think about the bare pump

4 situation you have a motor that is standard

5 efficiency and you are only throttling the pump,

6 you are not doing anything to the motor, you are

7 just doing whatever to the pump; right?

8 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So in terms of that

10 what happens to the energy usage to really the

11 motor is really where the energy is being consumed

12 in the final cost what kind of difference are you

13 seeing at different load point settings. Let's

14 say at BEP it is -- I will just say 1kw, 1000, 1.0

15 kW, 1000 watts.

16 MS. WIDDER: Right.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: When you are doing this

18 just with bare pumps because everything in the

19 motor is static what happens at the other load

20 points. How much of a difference are you going to

21 see when you - it is just a static motor?

22 MS. WIDDER: Well, it is not a static
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1 motor. We will get to that. So --

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So you are

3 assuming a motor load curve well based on motor

4 standard -- I'll say motor efficiency of different

5 motor loads?

6 MS. WIDDER: Right. Precisely. So we

7 are trying to account for increased losses at part

8 loading and it is true that -- yes, I'll just stop

9 there.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis had a question or

11 comment.

12 MR. STARR: Well I was going to say

13 Steve I actually went through and did that and it

14 is very little it is like still you are using 70%

15 or 80% of the motor energy when you throttle. And

16 I came up -- it's 85% of the total if you look

17 over the range of normal.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But those values are

19 going to be static, you can't - the motor is just

20 still -- those numbers are -- percentages at 75%

21 for that motor is static, they don't change.

22 MS. WIDDER: Well they are applied to
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1 every pump consistently.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?

4 MR. POWERS: So two questions. One I

5 heard the agreed upon electric motor did not take

6 in consideration the part-loads. If we get a

7 certified motor curve they are only committed to

8 one point. The others could be wherever they need

9 to be. So there could be variability on that.

10 That will kill us.

11 And then number two, I know it is small

12 but it still could be challenging.

13 MR. STARR: She's got a solution.

14 MS. WIDDER: I do.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. All right. That

16 is good.

17 And then the second question is --

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank heavens.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I talked about this

20 before one of the other meetings instead of PER we

21 are not just pumping, we also talked about other

22 systems. Getting systems rated rather than
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1 pumping.

2 MR. ADIN: We defined all that as --

3 MS. WIDDER: So those three gray boxes on

4 the right are a pump for the purposes of appliance

5 standards.

6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I agree but when

7 somebody sees PER they won't see this. Brought up

8 before about Lot 11, what is in Lot 11. I think

9 it would be better if we don't call it just pump.

10 Because oh, that is just a pump we don't have to

11 worry about the driver and the VFD. I think it is

12 a system related more than it is a pump related.

13 MR. ADIN: So you are just saying that

14 the term might be misleading.

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The term might be --

16 the term instead of PER something else.

17 MR. STARR: Pump system.

18 MR. POWERS: Package.

19 MR. FERNSTROM: Energy.

20 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Extended product,

21 EPA.

22 [Laughter]
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. We will consider

2 alternative nomenclature for PER.

3 So here were our issues to discuss from

4 last time. So this was --

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you make it bigger?

6 MS. WIDDER: Yep let me expand that. Is

7 that enough?

8 MR. BROOKMAN: that is good enough.

9 MS. WIDDER: So this is the equation is

10 just an example of how the PER might be

11 calculated. LCF on the left applies to a fixed

12 load control factor. It is like a fraction that

13 would be applied for pumps that are controlled. So

14 for example you might assume you get 50% savings

15 from applying a VFD and in that case the load

16 control factor would be .5. And note you are not

17 making an assumption. This is a calculation that

18 we would do. It would be written in the test

19 procedure. Everyone would have that number. The

20 load control factor would be fixed. It is

21 essentially a default number that would be applied

22 across the board to account for the savings from
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1 controls in the absence of a more rigorous or

2 widely available test procedure.

3 Then the weightings here in the omega

4 terms are not -- well they could be .25 or they

5 could be something else. The P on the numerator

6 is this case the pump shaft brake horsepower that

7 comes out at 40.6 at those load points which are

8 also up for discussion.

9 The motor default efficiency if you had

10 -- so that motor denominator term if you have --

11 we will talk about where that comes from but it

12 could -- it will be the minimally compliant motor

13 efficiency with a loss curve applied to it for

14 bare shaft pump. It will be your motor that you

15 are pairing with the pump if it is more efficient

16 than the minimally compliant pump with motor, the

17 same motor curve -- loss curve applied to it. And

18 in the calculation based approach and then I've

19 just put the hydraulic power as a potential

20 denominator here. There are some other

21 denominator options that I calculated and we can

22 look at how those look. So those are the type of
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1 things we want to look at.

2 Then these bullets: I break that out in

3 more detail. We want to look at motor losses.

4 I've brought examples of how we might calculate

5 motor losses and how that may work. How to

6 account for controls; I have some calculations for

7 a load control factor to account for different

8 types of equipment. I have two examples and can

9 make a list of other ones we might want to break

10 out. Load points, those are some examples. I

11 have calculations I think of all those examples.

12 But I also have spreadsheets so we can do it in

13 real time if you want to look at something else.

14 And then weighting; we have equal weighting and

15 then I -- I thought I had normal on there also but

16 it seems to have fallen out. But I also have -- I

17 calculated the PER for an example with normal

18 weighting and with two types of normalization.

19 MR. POWERS: Two questions.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

21 MR. POWERS: Have you thought, we've

22 been through it but have you thought about a
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1 factor for the size of the motor rating below the

2 actual pump hp?

3 MS. WIDDER: After --

4 MR. POWERS: If somebody puts a 500

5 horse motor on 100 horse pump versus a 100 horse

6 motor on a 100 horse pump; do you know what I

7 mean?

8 MS. WIDDER: Right. So we do have

9 sizing specifications for the bare shaft pump

10 case. So for my bare shaft pump say it is 50

11 horse, it specifies how to select the motor size

12 and that gives you the standard. Because DOE's

13 standard is specified by motor horsepower bins. So

14 that is prescriptive. For a pump and a motor that

15 is paired and sold in that configuration whatever

16 the horsepower you are pairing with the pump that

17 is what you are going to have to rate it with.

18 And so if you are dramatically over sizing the

19 motor that is going to be reflected in the metric.

20 MR. POWERS: Okay. So the customer has

21 a huge condition that he wants to buy a motor now,

22 a 200 horse that is already part of the
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1 calculation?

2 MS. WIDDER: Yep. And that will be --

3 that will be reflected. The performance of such a

4 mismatch will be reflected in the metric.

5 MR. POWERS: Is there any loopholes

6 with using BEP rather than -- everybody would know

7 what that is; right?

8 MS. WIDDER: Well we will define all

9 those terms in excruciating detail when we

10 actually write out this test procedure.

11 MR. POWERS: You had the others at .75

12 and I understand what you are using but I just

13 want to make sure nobody is --

14 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Right.

15 MR. POWERS: -- using a 1.02 or

16 something.

17 MS. WIDDER: And to be honest, yes, I

18 think that is a really good point and probably

19 when we finalize this metric I'll start using

20 consistent terminology of adding BEP to all of

21 them or none of them or something like that.

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just so I am clear, so

2 the P values that you have in the numerator I

3 think you said those are all shaft horsepower? And

4 the denominator you have P hydro. Can you explain

5 or define when you say P hydro what it means?

6 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. P hydro would be in

7 this example, we talked about some denominator

8 options, one of them was the hydraulic power

9 output.

10 MR. CAPPELLINO: When you say hydraulic

11 power --

12 MS. WIDDER: So if you were to calculate

13 the efficiency of a pump it is the input, the

14 shaft horsepower over -- or the hydraulic output

15 power over the shaft input power is the

16 efficiency. And so the - - said another way the

17 hydraulic power would be the shaft input power

18 divided by the efficiency of the pump. Does that

19 make sense?

20 MR. CAPPELINO: Yeah. -- in the world

21 of pump designers hydraulic power has another

22 meaning --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

2 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- which is typically

3 the power of the pump minus any mechanical losses

4 or any other auxiliary losses in the additional

5 piping or anything like that. So be careful that

6 we define clearly going forward.

7 MS. WIDDER: That is a good point. Do

8 you have another --

9 MS. WILLIAMS: We are just talking about

10 flow times head. Yes. We should --

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: I bring it up because I

12 had shared this with a colleague and I had to

13 steer him in a different direction because of

14 hydraulic power and again in the pump designer's

15 world that means something.

16 MR. WIDDER: Is there a better term?

17 MR. POWERS: The best example is --

18 Chuck the best example to give you there is I

19 think I have already touched it people make the

20 big mistake on verticals; right. You know Doug

21 sometimes might say Chuck I want to know what the

22 efficiency of a power of that pump is at the
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1 discharge flange and bowl assembly might be X;

2 right which would be similar to an end suction

3 pump. If you go where that is well the bowl is

4 going to be the same as that but when you take in

5 consideration the lift, the friction, up through

6 that nozzle, say Chuck I am going to compare you

7 to somebody else right at that nozzle. But some

8 go water to water and you still could have some

9 variations; right. So that is part of the

10 challenge that Charlie is mentioning. So vertical

11 versus ends we might have to have different

12 variations for that.

13 MS. WIDDER: Right.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie do you have a

15 comment?

16 MR. STANO: Yes, I've got I guess a

17 question. I had assumed that that P hydro was

18 going to be indexed so that you would account for

19 the different curve shape. So that much like your

20 indexing it at different points above that your

21 flow times head it would be important to denote

22 the curve shape --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

2 MR. SDANO: -- so that when you divide

3 it by it it would be the equivalent. So that a

4 pump with a steeper head curve doesn't have

5 problems in comparison because its power is higher

6 at other points.

7 MS. WIDDER: Right.

8 MR. SDANO: So was that what you were

9 thinking too that that would be actually --

10 MS. WIDDER: We could do that. I -- to

11 be honest with you Arnie the denominator

12 discussion is probably the most preliminary of

13 these. We've been doing a lot of our calculations

14 with no denominator and just looking at weighting

15 and the -- basically the numerator term here. And

16 then talking about what the denominator might be.

17 There's a couple of options that we looked at. I

18 think indexing it is another good suggestion that

19 we can consider.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.

21 MR. STARR: So one of the things I think

22 might be handy is it seems like you want the PER
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1 to be somewhere between zero and one so you can

2 compare things. If that is the case it seems like

3 P hydro needs to be on the top to get a fraction -

4 - to get something less than one.

5 MS. WIDDER: I mean you will get for P

6 hydro -- so let's not get tied up in the P hydro.

7 I should put like x there or something.

8 MR. STARR: As long as your efficiency

9 number comes out you know your 67% or something.

10 MS. WIDDER: That is a good point it's

11 something we will see in the denominator

12 discussion that for the hydraulic power

13 denominator you do get values greater that one,

14 slightly greater than one. Like 1.2. It is just -

15 -

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What kind of range --

17 MS. WIDDER: Well we only looked at the

18 example for one pump. We only did the

19 calculations for one pump. So I couldn't tell

20 you. So we were looking at the variability among

21 denominators for a specific case. We certainly

22 can look at a lot more once we narrow it down a
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1 little bit.

2 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we are ready to

3 move on to the next slide.

4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Good. Me too. So

5 this was some other metric actions that came out

6 of the meeting last time. Just to make sure we

7 did it -- we clearly thought that thinking a lot

8 about the PER metric but we wanted to make sure

9 that we had any other options captured out on the

10 table and didn't move forward too hastily. Given

11 that we have now limited ourselves to electric

12 drivers. I have a couple of comments that I added

13 in here. I wrote them out into like sort of like

14 groups. MEI and EEI are used in the EU and the

15 MEI describes the pump only. So that doesn't

16 really meet our purposes. The EEI describes the

17 impact of controls on a specific pump only. So

18 that doesn't really meet our purposes. Some of

19 these other ones GPM versus some sort of energy

20 denominator doesn't account for head component of

21 what a pump is delivering. Similar for the next

22 inverse of that potential metric. And then these
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1 two options at the bottom of energy per gallons,

2 times feet of head is in fact very similar to what

3 is being accounted for in PER. So yes?

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

5 I suggested some of these because to me and they

6 kind of follow what Gary presented from

7 California, they are just easier for an end user

8 to understand what you are actually looking at.

9 These pumps are pumping water, okay. How much are

10 they pumping versus how much energy you are

11 getting in it is for the fans it is watts per cfm.

12 For ceiling fans they use a watts per cfm metric.

13 It's cfm per watt. You know PER is a very

14 sophisticated way of saying, these are just a very

15 easy way of saying it. Just a matter of how much

16 education is needed in the marketplace for various

17 types of efficiency metrics. The higher you go

18 the more education is going to be needed for a lot

19 of end users, the end use customer. I still get

20 calls at EEI about what is a SEER, S-E-E-R. That

21 has only been around for 25 years. So you know

22 the beauty -- there is a sophistication versus a
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1 beauty of simplicity of understandability. So I

2 know it is not what the Europeans are doing but

3 again it is just a matter of at least it is on the

4 table for everyone's consideration that in terms

5 of test procedure I don't know what is easier but

6 again the beauty of it is to me it is - those

7 other ones are understandable.

8 MR. POTTS: This is Doug. I just have a

9 comment. Shouldn't the units be total hours per

10 gallon as opposed to gallons per minute?

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I am just throwing out

12 different ways you might be able to test it. Maybe

13 you are testing it based on gallons per minute.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

15 MR. POTTS: That is - the slash is

16 intended to mean an either or; is that --

17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Exactly.

19 MR. POTTS: Thank you.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So that is a good

21 point. Simplicity is good, helps people

22 understand. One thing I thought about especially
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1 with these bottom metrics and something that is an

2 energy per output of some sort is that it might be

3 confusing since we are trying to calculate an

4 average of multiple rating points that -- and then

5 you are giving someone a number that is -- a

6 simplistic reading is generally verified to a

7 single rating point.

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: A weighted average of

9 all these then.

10 MS. WIDDER: Right.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It could be summation

12 of or whatever you want to say the weighted

13 average KWH for whatever.

14 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is sort of

15 what we're doing.

16 MR. POWERS: Sarah. Chuck. I am still

17 struggling with the MEI. That has got to be part

18 of this?

19 MS. WIDDER: It is.

20 MR. POWERS: And it has got to be a

21 major factor. You know on the sheet we are going

22 to be measuring by MEI forms whether it is 10% or
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1 40% whatever. So MEI is a very critical aspect for

2 the pump only. Probably the only one.

3 MS. WIDDER: It is implicit in the

4 metric.

5 MR. POWER: That is --

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: It is the only.

7 MR. POWER: There for the bare pump.

8 MS. WIDDER: No we will be applying PER

9 -- well the proposal is that PER will be

10 calculated as the metric for certification for

11 bare pumps, pumps sold with motors and pumps sold

12 with motors and controls. Any product that we are

13 discussing in this rule making would have this --

14 MR. CAPPELLNO: So I think the MEI is

15 the only pertinent piece of information when you

16 are judging of that pump because everything else

17 is finished.

18 MR. STARR: Well the VFD is not. If you

19 had a VFD or dell it will change your PER rating.

20 MR. POWER: But we are saying.

21 MS. WIDDER: For a bare pump.

22 MR. CAPPELLINO: I am saying shipping a
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1 bare pump.

2 MS. WIDDER: Right. If you are shipping

3 a bare pump --

4 MR. CAPPELLINO: So we are certifying a

5 bare pump.

6 MS. WIDDER: If you are shipping a bare

7 pump it would go back to -- let's actually move

8 on. If you are shipping a bare pump I am going to

9 fly by here. So here we are at a bare pump

10 example. So these are the calculations. Actually

11 I will go back and do these a little bit. So I

12 have examples here for the calculation methods for

13 a bare shaft pump, pump with motor and pump with

14 motor controls. And then later on I have test

15 methods that could also be applied, instead be

16 applied, we talked about that.

17 MR. POWERS: The test methods --

18 MS. WIDDER: But there is no bare pump

19 test method you will note.

20 MR. POWERS: There has got to be.

21 MS. WIDDER: There is. It is 40.6. But

22 we will see how that fits. So for every pump,
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1 every pump regardless of how you sell it you will

2 determine the BEP flow rate. That will be the

3 first step. You test it and according to 40.6, 7

4 points, sweep -- to maximum flow rate or the point

5 specified in 40.6. You record head, rotational

6 speed, torque, and following table into a power,

7 torque times speed, output power is flow rate

8 times head times specific weight of fluid and

9 which the water is one generally and then

10 efficiency is the output power of the input power.

11 MR. POWER: So if the spec allows up to

12 120 degrees you may have the --

13 MS. WIDDER: So in 40.6 the temperature

14 range of water is limited between 10 and 30

15 degrees Celsius for the example that we did.

16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Did you try -- density

17 is included in the calculation of head in the --

18 anyway so --

19 MR. SDANO: No it is not.

20 MS. WIDDER: No.

21 MR. SDANO: There is a restricted

22 temperature range so we just used one.
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1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well why is that

2 implicit?

3 MR. SDANO: Only because if you're --

4 well it is included if you have something like

5 salt water that you are testing.

6 MR. CAPPELLINO: You are saying density

7 is included in the calculation but is always

8 assumed to be same value?

9 MR. SDANO: It is fresh water. It is

10 one. Yes. Density definitely is in there Charlie.

11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah.

12 MR. SDANO: But not because of the

13 temperature range.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Not only the

15 temperature but these are oversimplifications just

16 in general. I mean these aren't the actual

17 equations. The actual equations will be those

18 that you are looking at in 40.6 Charlie. And so I

19 think that is a good point. But just in general

20 what specific test points. You are not measuring

21 density. You are also not measuring a specific

22 weight of fluid but in general one of the inputs
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1 or outputs of 40.6 that then would be used to

2 establish the BEP at the pump is what this slide

3 was trying to get at. Does that work? Okay.

4 So then once you have this table. This

5 is actual test data we had. You can see that we

6 are not right on the test points but we are pretty

7 close. And the BEP was found by determining the

8 maximum of the best fit curve of efficiency with

9 respect to flow rate. So you find a trend line

10 and there are requirements around the trend line

11 that is applied to the data of efficiency versus

12 flow and then find the maximum of that curve. That

13 is your BEP.

14 MR. POWERS: So -- this is Chuck. SO if

15 we have pumps that have the bulls eye efficiency.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

17 MR. POWERS: -- where medium trim might

18 be BEP then we would take into account trimming it

19 to get the best efficiency?

20 MS. WIDDER: The proposal at this time

21 is that all pumps are sold at full impeller

22 diameter only. Well not sold. I am sorry. That
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1 was a misstatement. Take that back. All pumps

2 are certified -- certified at full impeller

3 diameter only. Sold in whatever configuration they

4 are sold in.

5 MR. POWERS: For many more years that

6 you've been alive --

7 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

8 MR. POWERS: For many more years than

9 you've been alive systems and process require

10 certain cost to have BEP at a bulls eye rather

11 than a max diameter.

12 MS. WIDDER: That's --

13 MR. POWERS: So we are going to change

14 the industry to do this now?

15 MS. WIDDER: The alternative is to

16 certify pumps at many impeller trends which would

17 be very burdensome.

18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, this is Alison. It is

19 going to be -- the standard will be set based on

20 the data we've collected. So you said there are

21 pumps in the data that have lower efficiency --

22 MR. POWER: Higher efficiency.
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1 MS. WILLIAMS: No but at full impeller

2 diameter you are saying they would have lower

3 efficiency than a trim in the data base so we can

4 account for that.

5 MS. WIDDER: Well and the other thing in

6 the way that we've been thinking about similar to

7 EU is that it would specify that the pump is

8 certified -- it could be specified that the pump

9 is certified at the largest -- or at the greatest

10 diameter for which that pump is offered for sale.

11 So if --

12 MR. POWER: I am trying to think of a

13 practical side; right. Just on analytical --

14 MR. SDANO: Charlie, Arnie Sdano

15 Pentair. When we had this discussion internally at

16 Pentair what do we do just for the case that you

17 have it. And we said well one way around this

18 would be to clear this new model that is only

19 available with this slightly trimmed impeller if,

20 in fact, there is a sufficient efficiency gain for

21 it.

22 MS. WIDDER: Which is --which would meet
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1 the -- you know if we define full trim or full

2 diameter as the large diameter for which that

3 model is sold that would comply. So we can

4 revisit this tomorrow because I think that will be

5 necessary.

6 MR. POWER: We have -- I am saying --

7 this is Chuck. We have people at the table that

8 run plants or --- customers of plants and they

9 want impellers with BEP further down for a lot of

10 reasons. They start out systems where they want

11 more head and as time goes they want less or they

12 change their system or VFD drive whole variations.

13 So what is going to happen now is those pumps will

14 be obsolete under this concept because we won't be

15 able to full diameter and meet the criteria and it

16 was designed for a specific reason. You know I am

17 not challenging --

18 MS. WIDDER: You could still

19 theoretically - - I mean even if it is lower

20 efficiency it can still theoretically pass

21 standards.

22 MR. POWERS: The scary part he said was
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1 we will develop a new pump so to speak with a

2 different trend. That adds complications to

3 additional testing, work --

4 MR. HANDZEL: So just understanding --

5 Mark Handzel. So they want that bulls eye down

6 there because in case they need to add some

7 capacity in the future they have room to do it; is

8 that why you are saying --

9 MR. POWERS: There is that. There are

10 system reasons. I mean not to mention what

11 industry, what product it varies a lot.

12 MR. HANDZEL: Because we've been

13 designing a lot of pumps lately and we're trying

14 to squeeze every point out that we can.

15 MR. POWERS: Right.

16 MR. HANDZEL: And it is moving that

17 bulls eye up to where Sarah and --- were talking

18 about. So

19 --

20 MR. POWERS: Well remember you can move

21 the bulls eye up that just means you are going to

22 get higher flow and higher head and really we
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1 should just go to a bigger pump instead of messing

2 with that. So now you've ruined that one --

3 MR. HANDZEL: I wouldn't say ruining it

4 because obviously we are staying within an

5 envelope so we can have a pretty --

6 MR. POWER: I am just trying to make

7 sure that we think these through --

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. Let me

9 note that this is intended to be something of an

10 overview and we are going to dive deeper tomorrow.

11 Steve?

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock of

13 EEI. Just out of curiosity do you have the motor

14 kw of that is under the data --

15 MS. WIDDER: Not for the rating of a

16 bare pump.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

18 MS. WIDDER: That is not measured.

19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. True but when you

20 -- by the -- standard let's say a 50 horsepower

21 motor that is matched to a 100 bhp, let's say it

22 is a 50 horsepower motor could you fill in a
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1 column that says -- I will just say estimated kw

2 based on a single motor?

3 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

4 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. Can I

5 just add that Sarah had sixty slides or something

6 and can we keep going and some of your questions

7 will be answered.

8 MS. WIDDER: Right. And the other thing

9 I will say on BEP -- do you want to say -- okay.

10 Okay. So the other thing I will say on BEP with

11 reading the pumps at different trims is this was

12 something that was consistent with the EU and is

13 something that we had considered as a compromise

14 between rating and certifying products and

15 reasonableness of applying this construct. So if

16 there is alternative proposals I think that would

17 be great. But in absence of that we are just

18 going to move forward with this at this time

19 anyway.

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Move forward on that

21 slide.

22 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So now we are to the
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1 bare pump. So we just established this box on the

2 right, our pump performance data from testing in

3 accordance with 40.6 which we just discussed. And

4 then the two other components here are

5 standardized lower efficiency and accounting for

6 part-loading and standardized controls performance

7 perhaps. The issues on the bottom here because it

8 is a bare pump we are going to be applying

9 calculations for both of those components. We are

10 going to assume a standard motor, an a/c induction

11 NEMA design B open enclosure that would be

12 specified in the test procedure. Everybody does

13 that if they are selling a bare pump. We would

14 specify the sizing as I mentioned that the

15 horsepower used will be the next horsepower above

16 the brake horsepower at 120% of BEP. So for this

17 pump that we have sample data for the flow at 120%

18 -- or the shaft power 120% of BEP would be around

19 55 and so that in case you would round up to 60

20 and you would pair it with the 60 horsepower motor

21 which in fact what it is paired with.

22 MR. POWERS: So the question -- so we
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1 have customers that say we know -- well I will say

2 two things what if you have a curve that is rising

3 and the horsepower is shut off and that will run

4 out everything you could actually have a smaller

5 motor. Or what if you have a customer that says

6 look I know that the run out is 120 higher but I

7 am okay sizing it at the BEP.

8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. You are getting

9 ahead of me because this is a bare pump. There is

10 no motor attached to this pump.

11 MR. POWER: But you are making a rule on

12 the ones --

13 MS. WIDDER: No for a bare pump. I am

14 just selling a bare pump. Just -- don't think

15 about pairing these motors at all. We just have a

16 pump. I don't have a motor on it. And so I need

17 to look up a number for my motor efficiency to

18 calculate the PER. And so this is just how to --

19 there is a table, there is a table in the CFR that

20 has motor size bins and in order to make sure

21 everyone is using the exact same number, I don't

22 know why the screen went black, --
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1 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: It is a sign.

2 MS. WIDDER: -- oh there we go. Okay.

3 It is a sign. So this is just for the bare pump

4 case. We would be assigning for every size the

5 standard motor assumption is the same. But it has

6 no bearing on the actual motor, physical motor

7 that is paired with that bare pump. And then the

8 poles would be assigned based on speed at which

9 the pump is being rated. So I am going to go

10 through this example. Is that okay Steve or do

11 you have --

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm just thinking again

13 just conceptually if it is a bare pump why are you

14 assuming a control when a bare pump is paired with

15 a control.

16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So that is a good

17 point and something worth discussing. Here if we

18 could neglect it since we are just assuming 100%

19 efficiency and we are essentially multiplying by

20 one. It is back to this equation if you want to

21 apply the same PER equation to all pumps we would

22 want to specify a load control factor even for the
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1 bare pump case if it is the same equation and that

2 load control factor would just be one

3 theoretically in this case. Or it could be

4 something different than one that might account

5 for efficiency of theoretical controls. But I

6 agree we have done all of our calculations

7 agreeing -- assuming that the controls

8 "performance" is not accounted for, it is one. It

9 is just there as an opportunity for discussion and

10 the same construction for each equipment.

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr?

12 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. I

13 would prefer that maybe standardized controls be

14 throttling a pump because that is a typical way of

15 controlling flow when you have a VFD application.

16 If you don't have a VFD --

17 MS. WIDDER: Right.

18 MR. STARR: -- you just throttle your

19 pump. That could be the base standardized control

20 and it wouldn't be one. It would be less than

21 one.

22 MS. WIDDER: It is. I am going to move
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1 forward. I am going to break this discussion now

2 and move forward to the example. I think this

3 will help. Okay. So we have a bare pump and after

4 we rated our pump we had that data and we've

5 determined the brake horsepower at these four load

6 points. And these are potential load points. AS

7 I discussed earlier there might be others that

8 we'll consider. And I have sensitivity analysis

9 around that at the end.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Although we generally

11 endorsed these load points at our last meeting.

12 MS. WIDDER: I felt confident

13 moving forward with these example calculations

14 using 50, 75, 100, and

15 110.

16 MR BROOKMAN: Yes.

17 MS. WIDDER: So here are the flow

18 rates. You see the flow rates and the brake

19 horsepower at those load points. The brake

20 horsepower was obtained from the best fit curve of

21 brake horsepower versus flow rate in this case

22 assuming you are within a tolerance around the
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1 rate point. So that would be one way if 40.6

2 doesn't -- if you are not right on 50 how you

3 determine the brake -- you don't have hit the

4 point exactly we can allow for some interpolation.

5 That was what was done in this case. So those

6 brake horsepower in the right hand column would go

7 into these P 50, 75, BEP and 1.1 values that are

8 circled. And then there they are plugged in in the

9 next equation. And the equal weighting. And then

10 you can see the LCF on the left. This is

11 representative of throttle based to your point

12 Louis the load control factor would be one in this

13 case.

14 So now we have to plug in -- the next

15 step here is plug in the motor efficiency. So

16 this is going to be talking through our approach

17 for motor efficiency. So we sized the motor to be

18 -- in this case 120% of BEP flow was 53.65

19 horsepower; we rounded up to 60 horsepower for a

20 four pole motor rated -- with a rate above 60,

21 full load efficiency from DOE's standard tables is

22 93.6%. So that is the full load efficiency for
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1 the motor in this case.

2 To account for motor losses at decreased

3 loading we've come up with a method where you can

4 assess the losses at each load point based on a

5 fractional loading of the motor. So to do that we

6 first calculate this term Xi that is the load

7 point divided by the size of the motor. So for --

8 this is for the BEP example, this equation here:

9 50.65 was our brake power at BEP and 60 is the

10 size of the motor and then we have a loading of

11 the motor of 84.4%. And you can do that

12 theoretically for each of the four points.

13 And then from that load fraction and we

14 put it into this quadratic curve we have to

15 calculate this Yi term that is the -- we're

16 calling it the load loss factor. And this will

17 make more sense once I get to the next table. So

18 once we have the load loss factor, we multiply the

19 load loss factor at each point by the full rated

20 loss which is something you calculate when you are

21 rating a motor. So the full load rated losses is

22 basically I think of it as the inverse of
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1 efficiency. If you have a 95% efficiency motor

2 then you have 5% about of losses. It is not

3 exactly that but it is standard losses and core

4 losses and winding losses and all different things

5 that are decreasing your efficiency in the motor

6 those are captured in the full load losses. So if

7 you multiply that times the Yi at each part

8 loading I have a quadratic of this which will

9 help. Here it is. So here is our polynomial how

10 we generated it. So this is full loading down to

11 a fractional loading. We had data down to 25%

12 loading of motors. This is Motor Master data. And

13 this is the quadratic we came up with. We chose

14 the most conservative case. And so at each load

15 point as you are moving down this curve you are

16 going to have increased -- you are going to have a

17 higher loss associated with decreased loading. So

18 that is accounted for here. Here is our bare

19 shaft horsepower. Here is our fractional loading

20 of the motor. It is as it is decreasing with the

21 loading of the pump. Here is the part- load

22 factor. It is also decreasing. And you can see
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1 it is also decreasing as we go down, it is similar

2 to the load fraction but has different shape and

3 the fractional loss load loss is then this number

4 times the full rated losses in -- for this pump it

5 was like 4.12 horsepower or something like that.

6 So you have a little bit less than the full rated

7 losses here. And then the fractional input power

8 is this fractional load loss plus the bare shaft

9 horsepower at each point.

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?

11 MS. WIDDER: It is sort of complicated I

12 know.

13 MR. HUBER: It is. Okay. But the

14 purpose here is for us to be able to measure or at

15 least give the consumer some difference between

16 what products are out there and some way to look

17 at it; right?

18 MS. WIDDER: Right.

19 MR. HUBER: We've got load factors that

20 we decided we are going to use 25 across the board

21 which we all know is not correct but it doesn't

22 really matter --
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1 MS. WIDDER: Right.

2 MR. HUBER: -- as long as everybody uses

3 the same one.

4 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.

5 MR. HUBER: Right?

6 MS. WIDDER: Right.

7 MR. HUBER: Because then everybody is

8 even. Why not just use the full load efficiency on

9 the motor all the way across this thing. What is

10 the difference?

11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So we did the

12 calculations both ways.

13 MR. HUBER: It doesn't really matter

14 does it as long as we are judging everybody the

15 same way does it really matter?

16 MS. WIDDER: It will --

17 MR. HUBER: It might in your cost

18 analysis but it probably will not in any measure.

19 MS. WIDDER: So the way this might

20 matter --

21 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Blow that out of

22 the water.
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear --

2 MR. ECKMAN: You want this --

3 MS. WIDDER: You do want this?

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, keep going.

5 MS. WIDDER: You want this. So I am

6 going to --

7 MR ECKMAN: A present under your tree.

8 MS. WIDDER: It will help. So the most

9 important reasons for doing this and making it

10 conservative -- let me keep going here --

11 MR. ECKMAN: So you can pass and do

12 better.

13 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Tom's ahead of us. So

14 we are really conservative, so essentially this is

15 the worst losses. You are buying the worst motor

16 that can minimally comply with DOE and has the

17 worst efficiency drop off that we could find in

18 the Motor Master database. So then if you apply

19 the calculation or a distributor applies the

20 calculation method to your bare shaft pump and you

21 wanted to rate your combined pump plus motor you'd

22 need a wire to water test you would always do
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1 better than this. And we have some examples of

2 that.

3 MR. HUBER: That is not a bad thing --

4 [Laughter]

5 MR. HUBER: Let me ask you another

6 questions. You are only going to do it for the

7 middle

8 --

9 MS. WIDDER: No, no. We are going to do

10 it for the pump -- yes, motor losses will be

11 applied in every case.

12 MR. HUBER: Yes. But you will have

13 those tables.

14 MS. WIDDER: Yep.

15 MR. HUBER: Okay. Or premium of

16 whatever is out on the market.

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah you have about ten

18 minutes so keep going.

19 MS. WIDDER: Okay.

20 MR. ECKMAN: Al's happy.

21 MR. HUBER: We'll see.

22 MS. WIDDER: Good. So for the bare pump
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1 -- I think this will actually speed up. So for

2 the bare pump plus motor case there are

3 theoretically two options that we just discussed.

4 You can do A which is essentially what we just

5 talked about except for this is manufacturer motor

6 data not DOE minimum standard data or you can do a

7 wire to water test for the calculations -- we are

8 just talking about calculations. We are just

9 talking about A right now. We will talk about B

10 later.

11 In this case it is exactly the same

12 construct except for it is the measured motor

13 efficiency now at each of these load points and in

14 this case we assumed the 95% efficient motor. And

15 this is the full load rated or the full load

16 losses of that motor. We have the same data over

17 here. The fractional load loss has gone down in

18 this case. And then we have fractional input

19 power that has gone down from before and we have a

20 PER of 45.08 if we don't have a denominator

21 compared to before we had 45.76. So our PER has

22 gone down which is better as we've calculated it
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1 here. If we throw a denominator on this all goes

2 - but essentially in general the PER is better and

3 has accounted for a more efficient motor.

4 MS. WALTNER: Can I ask a question.

5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.

6 MS. WALTNER: So you said that the

7 measured motor but that is actually the rated

8 efficiency.

9 MS. WIDDER: Rated. Yes. Rated would

10 be a better term. I was differentiating it from

11 default which is what I used before.

12 MS. WALTNER: Okay.

13 MS. WIDDER: It has been measured by

14 something just not in this test procedure.

15 MS. WALTNER: Yes.

16 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Good point.

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

18 You're still -- the pump is still a 60 horsepower

19 ODP motor right?

20 MS. WIDDER: It is whatever motor -- in

21 this particular case?

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.
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1 MS. WIDDER: The motor that this

2 pump was tested with this example is a 60

3 horsepower

4 ODP.

5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: okay.

6 MS. WIDDER: But if a pump was sold with

7 a 60 horse enclosed motor or a 75 horse enclosed

8 motor that is what would be plugged in here. And

9 then what would happen is these load fractions

10 would go down.

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.

12 MS. WIDDER: And your part load loss

13 factors would go down.

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again maybe I am

15 thinking too far ahead I am just kind of curious

16 what that would do to the PER?

17 MS. WIDDER: So actually I did some

18 sensitivity around that, it is really minor. On

19 my look --

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So the numbers are

21 about the same?

22 MS. WIDDER: Very similar. So if you
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1 have over -- I can tell you exactly what they are.

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No, no. We don't need

3 to see the numbers yet. But it just -- so the --

4 I'll say if you paired this pump with a 75 horse

5 power motor and the PER is about the same or a

6 little less I am just thinking that you know again

7 if this is a metric being used then all of a

8 sudden there might be a push if people are saying

9 oh, lower is better. Well go to 100 horsepower

10 your PER goes even lower. I mean and again I am

11 just thinking about the possible consequences of

12 it if the numbers turn out that way. Again I don't

13 know.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.

15 MR. CASE: I'm thinking cost is going to

16 drive you --

17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. People will continue

18 to buy equipment that is properly sized for their

19 application. That is something worth considering

20 potentially. We could also -- because we are

21 specifying the motor loss curve right now it is

22 based on Motor Master data. But there may be a
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1 way to account for in that quadratic formula some

2 sort of penalty for significant over sizing or

3 something like that.

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah you are doing

5 really well.

6 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

7 MR. BROOKMAN: You have five minutes. So

8 summarize your remaining slides.

9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I will do that.

10 MR. BROODMAN: Remaining 40.

11 MS. WIDDER: We will have all these

12 slides later to talk to you tomorrow. This is all

13 we are going to do all day tomorrow. Aren't you

14 looking forward to that?

15 So if we just move on to the controls

16 example quickly we have the same construct that we

17 had before except for now instead of going along

18 the pump curve we are going along the system curve

19 and one thing I will note is that now these P

20 shaft power values not all of them are coming out

21 of 40.6 because 40.6 is only at the rated speed as

22 it currently exists. And there are our slides.
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1 So this light green dot at BEP is the

2 only value that will be used for this case when

3 sold with controls. These darker green dots will

4 be calculated based on an assumed system PER. So

5 we will see how that works. So this is the basis

6 -- oh go ahead. Let's not do that. Okay.

7 So let's just in general the rest will

8 not do other estimates. In general we will talk

9 about the load control factors tomorrow and how

10 that works. It is basically like an EEI type idea.

11 It will be applied similarly. We also have some

12 testing examples to look through. And then at the

13 very back of your slide packet there will be some

14 sensitivity around the points, the curves, the

15 weightings and the denominator options and how

16 that looks. So yes?

17 MR. CAPPELLINO: I would like to spend

18 more time talking about what we do with the PER

19 number.

20 MS. WIDDER: Yes.

21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Is that a regulated, a

22 metric view -- is that metric used for labeling?
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1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I think we can have a

2 more significant discussion about that tomorrow.

3 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Charlie. Now

4 Bob has a question.

5 MR. BOTELER: My question is as motor

6 manufacturers scramble to deliver ECM --- and

7 other permanent magnet motors -- is there going to

8 be another table that we need to develop. We

9 don't have tables for -- today, we don't have test

10 standards or a metric for it today.

11 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So the way I can

12 think of that applying to this construct is that

13 we could have different loss curves for different

14 motors. Or if it's -- in the case of ECM we've

15 been thinking about that as actually a control

16 strategy rather than just a motor so that would

17 apply the pump plus motor plus control test

18 procedure. And we would develop in this construct

19 a load control factor representative of the

20 benefits of ECM -- of an ECM --

21 MR. BOTELER: So you'd have a load

22 control factor but each manufacturer would -- each
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1 motor manufacturer would provide his own curve?

2 MS. WIDDER: Well that would be

3 something we'd have to discuss. The simple way

4 would be everybody's ECM would get the same. If

5 you are a pump manufacturer that is the easiest.

6 If the second more complex way would be that there

7 is another way of calculating or specifying a more

8 complicated way of specifying the load control

9 factor for different types of -- or

10 differentiating different ECMs, different controls

11 within a given control. I will talk about that

12 tomorrow in the two examples that I have.

13 MR. BOTELER: All right. Thank you.

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Final questions before we

15 call it a day?

16 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Eight o'clock

17 tomorrow?

18 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to confirm

19 tomorrow we will be in - back in 8E. Yes, 8:00

20 tomorrow, someone will be there to let everyone --

21 check everyone in, give you a badge early on 7:15

22 or so so that you can grab a cup of coffee before
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1 we start at

2 8:00.

3 I just want to congratulate everyone. We

4 had a tremendously productive day. It is a real

5 breakthrough to establish scope. And I really

6 appreciate everybody working together so

7 wonderfully, harmoniously, effectively as the day

8 went on.

9 Closing comments from anyone before we

10 head out of here?

11 Thanks everyone. See you at 8:00 a.m.

12 tomorrow in 8E.

13 (WHEREUPON, the meeting adjourned

14 for the day at 4:40 p.m.)

15

16

17

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CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 

4 I, CHERYL LASELLE, hereby certify that I am 

S not the Court Reporter who reported the proceeding 

6 and that I have typed the transcript of the 

7 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 

8 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript 

9 is a true, correct and complete transcription of the 

10 proceedings. 

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/L0lzo1~ 15 Date T I 

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379 
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$

$10.08 149:20

$112 166:9

$15.77 142:18

146:9

$2.00 286:18

$29.50 143:7,15,18

146:10 147:12

149:9

$3.00 286:19

$30.87 142:19

$39 148:17

$4.00 286:18

$6.50 149:5,16

$61.73 149:14

$7 154:5

$71 154:14 155:5

166:12

$71.81 149:22

$8 154:5

0

0.25 269:12,18

004 134:6 135:3

006 134:5

01 133:22 135:4

02 91:1 133:22

134:11

06 134:11

07 135:2 170:20

171:8

1

1 35:4 44:13

105:16 107:10

162:22 170:15

201:19 202:1

214:3,14

1% 99:1 108:21

175:1

1.0 329:14

1.02 337:15

1.1 363:7

1.2 342:14

1.35 149:10 150:8

151:2

1.4% 107:8

1.5 67:3 148:19

174:6 275:19

1.55 149:12,20

1.8 67:4

1/25 257:8

1/25th 142:3,4

143:5 154:16

1:20 191:9

1:25 206:10

10 54:16 106:6,7

158:10,13

170:10 259:3,6

266:14

267:6,11,17

275:18 349:14

10% 13:4 346:22

10.1 162:4 166:16

10.l 162:2

10:15 64:1,10

100 336:5,6 356:21

362:14 373:9

100% 76:18

128:14 186:6

360:18

1000 1:13 216:7

270:7,22

329:14,15

104,000 35:22

1050 269:15

275:20

11 58:7,10 67:22

134:20,22

135:1,2,3

136:13,14 148:7

169:19,20

170:4,7,19,20

171:7,15,18

172:9,13 174:7

180:1,20,22

181:6,12,22

182:10,14,16

183:11 185:22

187:19,22 188:2

197:13,14 198:2

200:18,22

201:4,7,19

204:2,5,9

205:9,14,22

206:1,21,22

207:20,22

209:12 211:22

213:3 216:22

236:14 252:15

332:8

110 277:18 362:15

110% 327:18

112.50 163:22

12 81:5 170:4

252:15 283:19

12:17 191:8

120 277:18 349:12

359:6

120%

358:16,17,18

363:18

12-31-14 230:14

125 290:16,18

13 148:9 239:22

252:15

14 84:11 134:12

196:18 252:15

14.6 276:9,12

277:2,7 278:18

279:16

15 64:1 90:9,15

170:21 171:11

188:11 252:15

270:21 272:4

282:18

16 79:20 141:21

159:3 239:20

252:15

1600 74:22 111:18

1699 134:9,10

17 32:13 40:2

60:17

1700 93:5 95:2

171 132:12

171,456 36:2

1730 77:17

1800 93:17

19 126:14

1913 77:13

1920 77:17

1kw 329:14

2

2 8:6 106:13

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202:1,2

205:10,12 214:3

276:14 284:6

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103:18 175:1

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2,874 35:15,16

2.0 143:13

2.6 169:12

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20 227:11 266:14

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200 35:4 74:18

336:22

2000 70:12 72:6

78:21,22 79:3,10

89:14 93:17

126:12

2007 286:8,9

2008 286:9,13,17

2013 285:11

2014 1:11 3:15

206:18

2020 148:17

20585 1:14

22 170:22 171:11

22% 163:11

173:16

23 31:2

23,000 57:11

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135:3 170:21

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328:10,11 334:4

344:21 366:20

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3 40:20 106:12,13

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275:18 285:22

289:10 321:14

349:14

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300,000 174:7

3000 81:6 159:1

304 247:17

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4 44:13 107:11

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5 105:17 262:16

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50,424 36:12
Capital Reporting Company

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50.65 364:9

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6 262:17

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7 134:4 349:3

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69:6,13 70:2

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8:00 377:19

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9 48:12 55:12,14

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274:18,22

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281:15

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328:6

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acres 290:18
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across 19:11 98:22

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17,22

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299:14

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332:2,13

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176:22 233:18

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adopt 178:13

197:13 198:2

281:18

adopted 273:20
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281:3

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advance 10:1 55:5

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224:4

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advocacy 117:20

217:10 229:18

advocate 119:3

advocates 192:18

197:12 200:9

206:10 207:1

227:14 240:18

affect 29:2 59:4

116:1 129:8

133:1

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168:13

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28:2 29:5 30:15

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287:8,11 288:1

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287:4

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111:8 116:6

119:11 126:3

139:15 169:18

175:17 182:8

186:9,13 209:15

234:22 238:2

310:6 321:1

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48:1,14,15 50:19

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73:4,17 74:5

77:7 78:12 82:13

89:17 93:6,7,8

95:13 96:7

110:4,5 111:1

112:5,6,18 114:4

120:10,11

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132:12,14

133:3,4

188:20,21

203:17 211:3,19

217:16 218:11

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295:7 305:6

307:20 320:12

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30:18,19 40:19

41:18 43:3 45:5

47:8 49:17 51:20

55:6,13

61:4,10,18 63:1

64:20 68:3 71:19

72:21 78:5 84:17

89:6 92:1 93:20

96:1 97:14

100:18 102:15

110:22 118:9

119:12,13

120:11 122:2

126:3 127:3

128:9 131:3,17

132:8 133:12

135:5 157:1

159:15 171:2

185:17 187:2

199:8 202:5

203:21 211:20

216:12 221:18

231:7 243:5,19

245:8 246:22

271:16,18 273:1

282:4 302:13

308:11 311:2

352:18 357:4

Alison's 91:8

alive 352:6,9

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allow 269:16

274:20 363:4

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236:8 275:3

277:8

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alluding 195:13

alone 176:19

already 17:12 18:7

19:2 25:21 64:8

79:7 116:20

146:10 149:18

178:22 180:16

181:2,5 186:6

189:9 191:19

199:10 203:8

210:7 262:20

282:10 294:18

296:17 298:12

324:8,9,22

336:22 339:19
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Alright 24:15

Al's 369:20

altered 120:12

320:19

alternative 177:7

333:2 352:15

357:16

am 3:3 4:1 6:4

12:18 31:13

33:17 40:15,20

41:22 42:20

43:7,21 45:13

48:22 49:11 51:2

54:22 55:15,16

56:6,11 57:10

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2 74:12 75:22

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81:13 91:14 94:4

95:5 98:14

102:12 103:18

105:22 106:7,16

108:4,5 110:1

111:10 115:15

118:11,14 122:4

125:13,17

129:17,21

131:5,15 132:21

135:8,15 139:8,9

142:2 146:17

147:4 156:20,21

159:14 160:2

162:9 163:16

165:1 166:21

178:14

179:6,7,14,15,21

181:17 187:12

194:4 199:8

200:16,17

201:10,12,20

204:2 205:17

213:2

214:11,12,13

216:19 217:7,8

219:4 221:19

222:4,14

226:8,12,14

227:10,18

229:16,21 231:4

235:21 236:2

237:2,22 238:20

239:16 247:22

248:4 250:5

251:10 252:7

255:7 257:19

258:16 264:19

265:8 267:15

268:8 269:19

272:2 276:12

287:22 298:12

302:18 303:10

304:9 308:10

309:8,13 310:7

312:3,5 313:13

314:13 315:6

316:13,19,21

318:4,11 319:20

320:10 321:1

322:4 326:8

338:1 340:6

345:11 346:16

347:22 348:8

351:22 353:12

354:6,16 356:6

359:7,13 360:9

361:22 362:1

368:5 372:14,15

373:6,10 379:4

ambiguity 261:1

amending 237:2

amendment

236:11,13,19

237:7,9,11

238:12,15

239:11

amendments

236:9

American 4:9

among 33:6 342:20

amount 16:2 81:2

124:19 172:8,14

177:18 190:13

259:20

analogous 106:3

analyses 11:18

17:13 23:4 25:10

26:21 28:11 62:3

171:17 184:6

analysis 10:5,19

11:21

12:2,3,6,17

13:8,18 14:3,19

15:2,5,10,17,21

16:1,12,15,17

18:4,14 19:17

21:4 23:6,8,15

24:16,18,19

25:15,17,22 26:5

27:14,21 30:1

39:12 48:15 55:7

61:19 72:22

84:4,15 88:2

89:10 91:12

92:15 102:6

106:1 111:11

115:16,17 128:9

129:10 131:5

136:21

141:2,4,17

143:16 146:13

149:11 170:1

175:13,18

180:11,14,17

181:3,7,19

184:16 185:4

207:18

233:13,14

234:13 238:5,6

268:12 287:3

362:8 367:18

analytical 171:22

230:11 353:13

analytically 99:15

analyze 23:11

43:10 77:12

185:5

analyzed 44:1

announcement

228:7,8

annual 66:20 67:1

91:10 97:18

133:20 148:18

171:9

annualized 286:19

ANSI 205:1

answer 11:7 71:3,5

77:2 104:18

138:18 156:22

184:2 219:7

276:11 322:6,7

answered 20:2

182:20 296:5

357:7

answering 156:21

answers 157:6

anticipate 178:2

anybody 15:4

60:22 166:1

191:5 201:10

260:19 261:1

301:22 320:16
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anymore 30:10

266:21 267:15

anyone 99:5

134:16 318:22

320:14 378:9

anyone's 29:10

anything 37:4

57:20 108:14

131:6 139:15

167:7 200:18

234:10 281:22

286:3 298:19

299:22 302:6

329:6 339:5

anyway 34:19

66:19 94:6

203:11 222:1

232:11 266:15

294:20 299:20

304:14 305:14

308:2 349:18

357:19

anywhere 166:16

apart 86:18

API610 257:22

apologies 192:2

apologize 160:10

162:5,18

apparently 6:5,18

appendix

277:2,4,12

Applause 242:3

252:19 284:2

apples 155:19

appliance 5:4

332:4

applicability 9:7

284:9

applicable 257:8

303:15 314:19

318:19 326:10

application 16:10

67:17,18,20

68:11 71:16

72:11 74:19 81:6

87:11 95:11

114:17 127:19

128:13 163:15

210:14 214:5

217:17 220:14

226:5 236:16

254:17 255:1

263:8 286:2

361:15 373:19

applications 69:14

70:3,11 76:4,10

78:1 94:16

127:18 144:21

159:21 160:1

194:8 209:20

210:13,16

211:18 212:16

216:5 244:3

249:22 264:5

applied 149:19

273:18 330:22

333:13,21

334:13,17

348:15,16

351:11 369:11

375:11

applies 263:22

302:14 321:21

333:11 368:19

apply 15:15

167:13 228:9

260:13 274:1

283:6 303:7

308:16 309:16

360:21 368:18

376:17

applying 37:1

147:15 312:22

313:3 333:15

347:8 357:15

358:8 376:12

appreciate 105:11

107:1 130:20

192:6

242:8,12,15

272:22 378:6

approach 303:15

334:18 363:16

appropriate 94:15

156:1 169:4

255:2 318:7

approved 243:18

281:15,20 298:2

approximately

142:2,8,10,16,19

148:18,19

239:19

April 186:2,5

282:9

Arabia 291:22

area 95:2,3 276:19

293:3 294:11

295:21

areas 68:13 286:1

295:12

aren't 125:13

126:20 128:7

132:4 225:10

350:16 374:13

argue 75:17

119:17

arguing 119:16,20

argument 87:4

103:21 135:9

Arkansas 90:13

Arnie 2:10 5:11

9:16,17,18

90:5,16

212:21,22 268:8

269:8,10 271:17

272:15,18

279:17

283:11,16,19

284:1

305:6,9,10,20

340:14 341:11

353:14

arrangement

273:11

arrangements

273:7 275:5

arrive 6:14

articles 287:6,7,8

asap 193:21

Asdal 47:2

aside 112:21

ASME 259:4,7

aspect 84:1 232:22

296:10 347:1

aspects 227:19

253:9

ASRAC 28:4

193:20 196:9

202:20 203:1,3,6

206:16 230:8

assembled 319:1

320:18

assembles 319:4

assembly 223:16

340:1
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assess 364:4

assessment 13:16

14:9

assigned 101:7

360:8

assigning 102:2

360:4

associated 101:21

111:20 176:2,7

365:17

association 195:17

assume 49:15

61:14 101:10

161:1 202:18

257:16 286:13

299:12 316:1

333:14 358:10

assumed 316:7

340:17 350:8

370:14 375:4

assuming 13:9

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101:17 108:4

297:13 330:3

360:14,18 361:7

362:22

assumption 141:13

143:9,10 315:22

316:11 333:17

360:5

assumptions 116:1

154:8 164:4

assuring 233:12,17

attached 359:10

attempted 248:12

attempting 26:13

attention 292:6

August 74:21

authority 298:18

authorize 203:1

automated 76:15

auxiliary 339:4

availability 231:8

available 8:9 13:22

31:19 33:12

53:14 94:1 140:7

142:22 157:8,21

169:1,15

172:8,9,14 282:1

334:2 353:19

Avenue 1:13

average 17:4

45:7,18,22 46:10

54:14 55:17

77:13 91:22 92:3

93:9 101:17

102:3

107:6,7,17,20

108:20 113:2

125:8,9 143:6

147:12 152:21

286:19 327:20

328:4,10,11,12,1

4,22 346:4,8,13

avoid 276:1,10

aware 265:8

304:9,18

Awareness 5:5

away 88:6 103:13

110:15 140:21

204:19 272:19

293:9

awfully 269:6

axial 54:13 66:5

261:19 262:1

B

Babour 321:7

backed 29:19 30:9

background

251:22

backtrack 213:1

backup 69:8 73:3

bacteria 249:5

bad 301:22 369:3

badge 64:10

377:21

badges 191:10

Baldor 5:12

ballgame 77:18

307:18

balloting 282:7

ballots 282:10

ballpark 66:14

106:17

Baltimore 3:18

bands 122:19

bandwidth 31:3

Barbour 2:8 5:3

121:4,6,7,10,14

138:19 146:16

147:1,4 162:6

164:12,13,18

165:8,14 178:21

179:12

189:9,14,22

321:8,13,18

bare 105:22 107:4

299:8,11 302:20

303:1,14,15,18

304:8 308:16,21

309:11,15 313:1

314:20

315:3,9,20,21

316:15 319:3

323:9,13

324:10,12

326:13,16

327:22 329:3,18

334:14 336:9,10

347:7,11,21

348:1,3,5,6,8,9,1

3,18 356:16

358:1,8,13

359:9,13,14

360:3,7,13,14

361:1 362:3

365:18 366:8

368:20 369:22

370:2

barely 101:13

105:17

barrier 238:5

base 18:22 23:21

105:17

115:16,20,21

212:18 288:13

353:3 361:19

based 13:10,21

15:13 30:3 37:4

46:6 55:19 87:11

92:6 93:4 94:15

98:2,3,4

99:20,22 100:9

108:4,5 129:10

130:10 142:21

146:21

147:13,16 150:8

157:8 158:19

159:2,6 163:12

209:19 236:13

254:5 258:19

274:11 276:14

280:20 286:13

295:3 299:15

313:3,4 316:7
Capital Reporting Company

Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-26-2014

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 © 2014

328:20 330:3

334:18 345:13

352:19 357:2

360:8 363:11

364:4 373:22

375:4

baseline 14:16

15:16 17:18

100:11 116:2

143:3 155:3

156:5

basement 296:1

bases 11:15

basic 15:2 141:13

271:17

basically 16:2,5

17:12 23:7,13,20

24:7,10,18,19

28:4 31:4 56:11

58:14 67:20 92:6

96:6 98:16 99:7

101:3 147:15

160:14 163:6

164:2 180:18

208:19 234:8

235:6 241:7

284:5 285:5,7,10

286:4,6 291:10

299:19 307:2

341:15 364:22

375:10

basics 207:7

basis 11:12 12:22

107:17 113:1

116:9,21 264:1

297:12 375:5

basket 195:1,7

beach 306:14

bear 38:16 65:18

69:19 73:9

bearing 360:6

bearings 218:3,4

beauty 344:22

345:1,6

became 186:22

become 168:14

318:14

becomes 86:13

103:11 293:6

328:13

beers 242:16

begin 193:8 306:20

behalf 59:10 62:10

192:17 193:12

219:20

behind 9:1 22:12

behoove 129:1

believe 32:10

36:10,13

38:11,20 43:8

56:20 59:1

139:18 146:8

148:15 168:22

175:14 179:5

183:17 192:21

270:5 289:18

306:9

believing 60:18

Beloit 4:19 265:18

bench 212:2

benefit 19:19,20

20:5 169:14

176:14

220:11,21

benefited 296:17

benefits 17:2

376:20

bent 289:22

BEP 65:22 102:19

103:10

110:17,19

280:9,12 281:8

327:18 329:14

337:6,20 349:2

351:2,7,13,18

352:10 354:9

357:9,10

358:16,18 359:7

363:7,18 364:8,9

375:1

Besides 199:14

best 29:5 39:22

166:17 183:18

276:7 277:19

339:17,18

351:8,19 362:20

Betsy 2:15 25:20

233:7 319:17

322:12

better 88:11

103:17 112:13

113:15,18,21

128:21 153:3

175:16 199:3

207:11 228:21

252:18 273:17

277:16 317:12

325:13 332:9

339:16 368:12

369:1 370:22

371:2,10 373:9

bhp 356:21

bigger 39:18 63:10

115:19 263:4

333:5 356:1

biggest 180:10

216:2 293:1

bins 336:13 359:20

biological 244:7

BIS 132:2

bit 14:8 36:15 39:5

65:8 66:2,13

113:7 145:17

152:3 157:5

158:5 166:10

173:20,22

188:13 209:22

212:12 220:9

224:5,8 253:4

254:9 266:17

274:11 275:9

276:4 316:3

343:1 348:11

366:6

black 359:22

blah 257:4,5

blocks 21:12

Blow 367:21

blower 144:21

blowing 75:11

293:7

blown 106:1

board 153:18

265:1 322:13

333:22 366:20

Bob 5:3 29:16 47:2

49:10 121:4,6

139:14 146:16

164:12

178:20,21

189:13,14

321:7,8 376:4

body 49:22 195:4

boiler 210:13

211:17 212:15
Capital Reporting Company

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 © 2014

bomb 293:21

book 86:6

booster 69:15,16

259:4

boosting 211:18

bore 215:9,10

216:2

Boteler 2:10 5:9

29:15,17 30:5,8

31:5 376:5,21

377:13

bottom 49:9 74:18

75:4 140:17

171:4 222:22

223:16 258:21

260:19 287:1

344:1 346:1

358:7

bowl 215:18,19

223:16 288:18

340:1,3

bowls 215:13

box 84:9 358:1

boxes 289:20

315:5 332:3

bracket 98:12

102:10

brake 334:6

358:16

362:5,18,19,21

363:3,6 364:9

brand 108:5 109:1

break 37:10 42:20

49:3 63:14,22

77:15 128:10

188:12 223:8

252:21 271:13

272:4,5,15

284:11 285:13

312:7 335:2,9

362:1

breakdown 138:12

breaking 42:10

48:20

breakthrough

378:5

Brent 2:11 5:12

brief 8:12 29:9

43:6 198:7

229:13 284:10

bring 6:11 109:17

187:15 189:15

285:2 312:21

314:1 339:11

bringing 22:20

149:6 169:8

brings 149:20

broad 113:1

322:14

broadcast 4:3

broader 13:8,13

77:6

BROCKMAN

21:22

broke 50:13

229:16 286:10

broken 42:16

51:22 52:3,5,16

218:22

BROODMAN

374:10

Brookman 2:1

3:2,8,11,17

5:17,20

6:3,9,13,17

7:11,13,18 9:17

14:12 17:19

18:2,15

20:3,7,16 25:18

26:11 27:10

28:21 29:8,16

30:18 31:12

32:5,22 35:9

36:17 37:11

38:1,5,18 39:21

40:4,6,13,17

41:3 43:3,19

44:15,19,22

45:2,4 46:5,8,22

47:8,12 48:13

51:2,6,13,19

53:6,17 54:2,19

55:2,12 56:15

57:7,18,22 58:20

61:10,16

62:4,9,18

63:1,6,11,19,21

64:4,6,14

65:3,5,9 67:9

68:2,21 69:21

70:4,7 72:12

73:22 74:10,12

78:5,12 79:16

80:12,19 82:13

83:3,7,22 84:22

86:3,8,21 87:14

88:3,17

89:6,11,17

90:15,18

91:7,14,16,19

92:19

93:1,6,11,20

94:3,20 95:13

96:14 97:12,16

99:18 100:14,17

102:12 105:9

106:10

107:12,14

108:1,17

109:4,8,22

110:3,12 111:5

112:5,15 113:10

114:4,14

115:4,12

116:3,22 117:18

118:4,9,12,18,21

119:2,6,19

120:10 121:4

122:1,5

125:11,17,20

126:2,15 127:13

129:3,7,12,15,22

130:11,15,17,21

131:1,17,21

133:3,11 134:18

135:11,17 136:1

137:16 138:9

140:3 143:20

144:9 146:14

147:21 148:4,11

151:11,17,22

154:11,21

155:4,7,9,16

157:12,15,22

158:7,13

161:17,21

162:12,14,21

164:12 165:7

166:5 168:9

169:16 171:1,6

172:2,17,20

173:18 175:8

177:6,13

178:14,18

179:11,14

180:22 181:16

182:8 183:12

184:10,21

185:16 186:17

187:1,8,12 188:7

189:2,10,13

190:3,6,10,22

191:2,17

192:2,19

193:11,15,17
Capital Reporting Company

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 © 2014

194:2 195:21

196:2,7,16,20

197:4,8

198:3,5,12 199:5

200:1,5,8,15

201:14,22

202:4,12

203:16,20

204:15,21

205:4,7 206:1,4

208:11,14

209:15 210:9

211:3,11,20

212:3,21

213:8,10,22

216:12,21

217:2,5,8,14

218:11 221:4,18

222:9 224:14

225:21 226:10

227:6,10 228:1,4

229:5,8,15

230:6,14,16,19

231:7,15,18,22

232:3,7,17,20

233:22 234:3,22

235:3,21

236:2,10,18,20

237:4,9,22

238:17,20

239:2,4,7,10,20

240:5,8,12,16

241:3,11,14

242:4,10,12,20

243:19,22

244:16,18

245:7,13,18

246:6,15,22

247:3,11,14,22

248:9

250:9,11,22

251:5,8,14

252:2,20

255:9,12,18

256:3,6 257:15

258:18 259:1

262:15,21

263:1,6,13,20

264:7,11,14

265:14,17

266:3,8

267:1,10,17

268:8,13,17,20

269:5,8

270:4,9,19

271:12,16

272:2,8,13

280:3,6 282:4

283:11,13

284:1,3,18 288:4

290:18,22

292:7,19

294:4,9,22

295:14 296:3

297:15,21

298:11,15,21

299:22

300:5,12,18,21

301:3,7,15,21

302:10 304:17

305:6,9 306:6,10

307:19 308:10

309:1,6 310:7,21

311:6 312:1,4,6

313:19 317:11

319:7,17 320:12

321:7 322:10,22

325:4 326:6

327:6,9 330:10

331:3,18 333:5,8

337:22 340:14

341:20 343:2

356:8 357:20

361:11

362:10,16

366:10 368:1,4

369:17 373:14

374:4,7 376:3

377:14,18

BROOKNER

238:10

brought 86:6

132:12 174:5

175:15 212:15

225:11 235:4

332:7 335:4

BS 153:2

buck 225:6

buddy 324:4

build 86:17 113:2

114:18 115:3

140:17 290:4

317:14

building 1:14

22:18 72:15

80:22 81:2 124:6

127:19,20,22

266:12

buildings 79:22

160:3 226:6

266:21

built 16:1 37:4,9

72:1 100:1 137:9

bulk 137:11

bullet 9:2 314:14

bullets 335:2

bulls 351:15

352:10

355:5,17,21

bunch 7:21 13:3

25:10 50:11

79:19 129:10

312:10 324:5

burden 99:14

171:16 172:1

burdened 17:3,9

burdensome

352:17

burning 114:12

business 10:22

75:2 128:5 139:6

156:18 166:22

167:4 168:5

324:13

busy 186:7

buy 76:19 223:20

336:21 373:18

buying 154:13

326:13 368:15

bypass 302:14

C

CA 159:2

cable 215:20

calculate 123:3

325:10 335:4

338:12 346:3

359:18

364:6,15,20

calculated 47:5

162:8 325:8,16

333:11 334:21

335:17 347:10

370:22 375:4

calculating 275:6

377:7

calculation 46:3

48:3 94:10 113:3

169:8 275:11

280:20 303:15

308:22 313:3

326:3 333:17

334:18 337:1

348:12 349:17

350:7 368:19,20
Capital Reporting Company

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 © 2014

calculations

167:16 276:1

308:16 309:15

335:6,11 341:13

342:19 348:10

358:9 361:6

362:13 367:12

370:7,8

calculator 162:10

calendar

196:18,20

calibrated 306:1,4

calibration 275:12

277:13

California 5:8

75:14 93:17

96:19 183:14

291:18,19,20

292:12 293:11

344:7

candidate 12:22

105:12

capability 276:10

capacitor 137:5,18

138:2,16 139:10

140:1,6

capacitors 139:12

capacity 76:18

93:21 128:14

231:9 355:7

CAPELLINO

4:14 328:17

capital 203:8

CAPPELINO

112:17 338:20

Cappellino 2:4

4:14

21:5,6,11,14,19

22:21 46:6,9,14

58:3,4 67:9,10

83:9,15

100:17,18

101:19,20

111:5,7 143:22

144:1,5

210:8,9,10 221:2

250:10,12

251:10,11,17

256:6,7,11,16,18

264:8,12,15

265:3,6,10

283:15 288:19

319:2,9,15

327:10

328:8,9,13 329:1

338:1,10

339:2,11

347:6,22 348:4

349:16

350:1,6,11

375:17,21

CAPPELLLNO

264:8

CAPPELLNO

347:14

CAPPILLINO

68:1 257:12

capture 37:22

177:3 195:22

326:12

captured 245:9

343:9 365:6

captures 286:20

car 85:10

carbon 25:14

29:18,22

care 116:11,17

300:16

careful 77:8

103:16

104:16,21

243:10 291:13

324:3 339:5

carefully 209:2

carryover 221:2,3

case 2:3 4:12

6:7,10,15 17:8

19:1,3 23:21

35:17 38:19

39:11,12

44:5,7,21

45:1,9,13,21

47:1 49:11,14

53:19 54:3,9,15

78:15 94:20,21

99:5 101:15

115:16,17,20,21,

22 166:16,17

181:16

182:10,18

183:3,6,10

208:4,5,12,16

209:5

220:10,11,18,20

221:3,6 224:15

225:3,11,19

227:8 228:20

243:16 246:8,12

251:1,6,21

258:19 261:18

264:22

293:14,19,21

294:1 306:11

314:5,7,11

327:15 333:15

334:6 336:10

342:2,21 353:16

355:6 358:19

360:4 361:1,3

362:21

363:5,13,18

364:1 365:14

369:11

370:2,11,14,18

371:21

373:14,15 375:2

376:14

cases 24:1 75:6

116:2 220:1

328:1

cash 24:20

casing 50:15

163:12

215:17,19

222:19

casings 208:18

cast 85:6

catalog 140:8

catch 290:3

categorical 260:2

categorically

137:18 138:16

categories 39:16

40:22 54:18 55:1

58:21

59:17,18,21 66:8

69:7 77:16 78:20

191:4 204:9

207:9 213:18

214:22 215:5

308:2

category 41:9,10

42:1,6,7,17

48:17,22 50:16

52:2 56:9 107:5

219:9

cathodic 85:7

caucus 117:3,4,20

120:18

188:5,9,10,16
Capital Reporting Company

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 © 2014

193:15 197:9

200:10

206:19,20

217:10

227:14,15,16,17,

22 228:2

229:9,12,14,16,1

9 267:20

caucuses 179:16

188:9 192:11

caucus's 8:14

caveat 63:3 66:11

ceiling 344:12

cell 122:3 133:12

cells 125:20,22

126:3 131:18,19

Celsius 349:15

center 75:5

222:15,18

289:6,8,9,11,14,

21 290:7,11

291:9 293:5

307:4,11

centerpiece 204:4

certain 13:10 17:6

56:8 61:21

73:1,3 75:17

103:13 113:2

215:22 325:20

352:10

certainly 53:4

59:19 78:6 105:6

108:15 124:11

172:21 184:7

310:11 342:21

CERTIFICATE

379:1

certification

163:13 257:17

278:13 347:10

Certifications

244:11

certified 248:17

250:19 278:9,11

331:7 352:2

353:8,9

certify 326:14,18

352:16 379:4

certifying 317:1

348:4 357:14

cetera 13:4 183:7

298:20

cfm 344:11,12,13

CFR 259:3,6

359:19

chain 120:17

chairman 283:3

challenge 340:10

challenging 331:12

354:17

chance 5:21 117:3

252:21 253:22

change 25:3

28:2,9,19

31:1,10 88:1

92:10 97:22

104:12 123:1

141:12 200:18

224:18 278:19

291:16 320:16

323:10 330:21

347:19 352:13

354:12

changed 131:19

133:14 134:3,8,9

314:22 320:15

changes 89:14

102:18

121:3,7,17

134:4,5,11,12,14

,15 162:22

253:14 255:20

311:3

changing 121:14

231:20

channels 15:13

characteristic

254:12 264:6

characteristics

248:14

254:13,16

charge 155:22

Charles 2:4

Charlie 4:14 21:6

46:8 58:3

67:9,10 83:8,9

85:15 100:17

101:20 104:4

111:5 112:15

143:22 152:22

208:7 210:9,10

211:13 212:15

250:11 251:8,11

256:6,7 264:7,8

318:12 319:2

327:9 328:8

337:22 340:10

350:10,18

353:14 376:3

Charlie's 283:13

chart 21:8 41:4,6

56:22 166:7

167:15 303:1

308:14 315:15

cheapest 209:19

check 42:9 43:1

96:3 147:1

259:13 377:21

checking 63:4

133:19 300:2

323:12

chemical 39:4

chemicals 305:14

CHERYL

379:4,15

chlorinated 265:22

choice 18:10

choose 115:18

178:3

chose 182:21,22

310:9 365:13

Chuck 2:14 6:7

56:16 57:7

74:10,13 84:22

102:11,14

125:11 127:13

129:15

131:21,22 133:6

151:22 166:19

173:19 174:2,3

200:11 205:6

212:3 215:15

223:5 259:1

288:5 297:2

302:8 303:21

310:22 315:8

317:4,6 319:19

324:3 331:3

339:18,21 340:6

346:16 351:14

354:7

Chuck's 202:6

260:8 262:3

circle 290:8 291:10

circled 363:8

circulation 159:22
Capital Reporting Company

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 © 2014

circulator 8:10

62:19 84:9

137:22 138:1,2

139:1 142:1

145:17 146:19

151:9,20 166:21

178:5 192:22

193:17 196:2

202:17 206:11

circulators 8:19

62:5,7,8 104:9

117:7,22 118:2,3

119:9 135:19,21

136:17 138:22

140:13 143:5

150:15

151:6,13,20

153:13 157:10

158:2 159:12

160:13 165:14

168:14 170:21

171:10,21

172:7,10,15

173:8 174:20

175:16 176:3

177:9 180:2

181:4,14,21

182:1 183:16

186:12,14,19

187:20 189:21

190:11,17

191:20 194:1,2

201:5,19 204:8

213:7

cited 287:2

claim 263:14

clarification 17:16

25:19 26:2 35:10

107:16 218:20

clarifications

254:20

clarified 279:9

clarifies 309:1

clarify 19:8 27:20

29:21 46:10 55:1

57:18 70:1 82:19

99:19 136:2

184:12 189:3

194:11 204:1,21

213:15 252:2

253:3 264:16

298:21 299:6

318:16,18

clarifying 304:3

clarity 200:19

300:13

class 99:13,14

138:17 171:16

185:3 243:8

classes 14:15

classify 201:2

clean 9:4 35:5

71:12 161:20

165:17 247:6

253:1,14

254:3,6,10,14,17

,21 255:3,4,6

257:3,7 261:8,12

263:5,15,17

264:5 265:21

266:20,22

267:15,21 268:4

269:22

275:16,22

cleaner 89:5

clear 10:12 23:1

51:2 83:20 94:8

158:20 193:3

205:2 206:1

226:17 232:6,12

248:13 254:19

259:3 264:12,17

267:21 269:20

275:16 276:4,6

297:11,20

318:15 324:20

338:1 353:18

clearer 102:14

clearly 8:6 9:3

31:17 201:4

260:22 273:8

339:6 343:7

climate 80:5

clinics 75:3

close 36:1 38:13,20

39:17 40:1 67:3

69:3 79:14,15

112:12 128:3,8

131:7 167:8

168:3 193:6

213:4 242:21

282:9,12 304:22

305:4 306:12,18

307:4 351:7

closed 72:6,7

194:22

closely 64:19 79:6

closer 68:22 69:3

93:9 95:18,22

closes 272:6

Closing 378:9

cluster 206:6

code 259:7

coffee 272:9

377:22

cognizant 167:6

coke 272:8

cold 3:4

colder 267:13

colleague 339:12

collect 27:5

collected 49:11

59:6 246:9,13

352:20

collecting 12:1

22:18 182:7

collection 25:22

58:6

collective 44:10

color 132:13

colorful 41:4 51:3

colossal 129:13

column 51:14

52:7,12

65:7,16,21

67:12,15 78:8

83:11 100:20

123:4,14,15

126:19

134:13,14

135:6,8

162:17,18,22

163:1 204:12

205:6,8 216:15

223:17 357:1

363:6

columns 88:20

105:11,18 107:6

122:9,14

combine 16:19

combined 16:17

23:16 42:19

48:18,19

326:16,18

368:21

combines 16:15
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combining 24:17

325:20

comes 30:2 77:17

116:9,15 149:4

167:5 171:8

185:14,15 193:1

212:5

222:15,18,19

223:2,10 253:7

263:16,21 307:4

334:7,11 342:9

comfortable 57:19

77:19 142:15

147:5 156:21

207:6 248:3,5

coming 6:8 38:3

53:11 81:19,21

114:16 144:16

223:16 242:7

268:8 292:14

315:20 322:12

374:20

comment 6:17

22:10 29:1 54:20

61:4 82:14 93:4

110:3 138:8

144:14 145:9

146:21 151:11

159:16 180:8

213:5 219:7

231:16 247:13

248:19 295:3

302:8 306:11

330:11 340:15

345:9

commenting 147:5

comments 9:20

27:5,8 53:8 55:3

91:18 120:13

143:21,22

146:15 175:9

184:11 204:16

206:9 282:16

299:2 343:12

378:9

Commerce 33:11

34:5

commercial 3:13

16:7 70:10,21

79:22

80:14,15,22

81:6,13 141:18

144:11,16

150:4,5

159:20,21

160:1,3,22 161:1

194:16

195:11,14,15

224:20 287:13

288:2

commercial/

industrial 1:10

202:15

commercially

145:10

commit 231:19

committed 331:7

committee 79:19

193:20 228:12

236:7 269:3

274:18 276:4

282:13 313:15

commoditized

156:12,15,17

181:20 182:4

commodity 210:20

commonly 143:5

community 274:7

compact 224:7

companies 32:8,13

33:6,13 38:22

40:3,10 46:20

60:17 61:11 85:3

86:12 128:4

152:20 153:18

167:2 168:4

company 61:5

152:6 179:3

292:12,14

293:16 294:1

306:12

comparable

171:12

comparative

169:19

compare 117:21

171:15 269:18

340:6 342:2

compared 54:16

58:18 136:20

169:9 186:13

209:7 254:21

323:13 370:21

compares 170:14

comparing 155:19

comparison

155:18 169:4

279:2 341:5

comparisons

62:20,21 119:4

compete 292:11

320:4

competing 214:4

competitive

226:3,4

236:16,17

292:16

competitors 227:1

compiled 55:22

complete 21:15

26:5 61:12

184:16 379:9

completed 43:15

completely 78:3

180:14 182:4

253:8 327:2

complex 110:16

210:17 283:21

377:6

complexities

116:17

compliance 167:6

232:10,13

compliant 316:4

334:12,16

complicate 110:6

complicated 29:10

94:8 112:20

366:11 377:8

complications

355:2

complies 316:4

comply 232:16

251:7 259:6

354:3 368:16

component 343:20

components

220:1,22

221:10,12

358:4,9

compose 192:21

comprehensive

273:15 274:15

compressed 12:5

comprises 70:2
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compromise 242:9

357:13

computer 291:8

concept 211:16

354:14

conceptual 255:16

conceptually

245:10 253:13

254:3 360:13

concern 58:12

168:8 224:8

226:4 248:7

322:18

concerned 58:8

89:21 306:22

concerns 248:11

conclusion 133:7

168:13 320:22

condensate 224:4

condense 25:21

condensing 22:4

condition 336:21

conditions 298:10

conduct 11:20

26:5 176:16

conducted 177:14

180:16

conferences

283:19

confident 217:7

313:13 362:12

configuration 3:22

336:15 352:3

configurations

276:17 315:19

323:21 326:11

confirm 37:11

82:14 147:2

245:13 298:22

377:18

confirmation

302:4,7

confirmed 96:6

271:17

confused 225:8

confusing 83:13

322:2 346:3

confusion 50:12

congratulate 378:3

Congratulations

242:2

connected 50:3

consensus 238:14

consequences

373:11

conservation 5:2

192:17 309:16

conservative 109:6

122:20 365:14

368:10,14

consider 10:21

13:1 14:2,17

105:15 112:7

119:8 120:4

129:6 152:7

188:2 190:12

192:14 304:21

333:1 341:19

362:8

considerable 20:10

227:12 229:20

263:3

consideration 73:6

169:15 184:19

242:4 253:7

255:14 331:6

340:5 345:4

considered 14:21

24:13 188:1

196:3 218:2

243:2 255:1

320:18 357:13

considering 25:4

70:6 151:12

296:11 373:19

consistent 216:21

337:20 357:12

consistently 331:1

consolidate 311:21

constant 159:3,6

168:21 171:11

173:3

constitutes 256:22

257:6 263:5

constraints 35:6

224:11

construct 235:12

327:12 357:15

370:12 374:16

376:12,18

construction 23:14

361:10

consultant 67:16

consultants 71:20

77:15 128:10

207:16 238:6

consulted

227:14,17

consulting

114:18,20

consumed 329:11

consumer 13:11

18:7 19:11 144:2

149:8,13,21

150:4 154:12

366:15

consumers 19:1,12

21:2 167:11,19

168:1 295:12

consuming 197:17

consummate

193:10

contact 211:6

content 178:19

266:9 270:12,19

contingent 313:22

continue 168:19

283:7 373:17

continued

178:10,16

contractor 205:2

322:17 327:1

contrast 292:10

contributed 31:22

contributions

294:4

control 289:22

328:7

333:12,16,20

335:7

360:14,15,22

361:2,19 363:12

375:9

376:15,17,19,22

377:8,11

controlled 333:13

controlling 361:15

controls 159:3,7

176:5,7,14 177:3

313:2,5 314:21
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315:4 323:11

326:17 334:1

335:6 343:17

347:12 348:14

358:6 361:5,7,13

374:15 375:3

377:10

convenient 206:2

conversation 8:12

43:6 109:19

117:14 130:12

226:1 236:13

242:13 258:20

284:10 320:20

322:3

conversations

146:22 297:9

conversed 145:22

conversely 255:4

conversion 24:22

135:14 141:2

143:11

148:2,15,17

149:16

conversions 141:6

converted 292:17

convictions 190:14

convince 273:2,4

cooling 80:10

cooperation 242:9

copied 135:13

copies 64:2

copy 32:11 120:16

273:6

core 365:3

cores 208:8,16

Corporation 4:15

5:10

corporations

153:18

correct 20:20

38:13 43:7 51:7

59:11,13,15,17

73:19 95:16

100:3,13 102:19

107:19 115:15

118:10,14

119:13 156:13

162:4 165:20

184:13 187:5

203:22 230:16

266:1 279:4

366:21 379:9

Correction 142:3,4

corrections 91:9

276:2,3,6

correctly 176:10

177:4 321:9

corrosion 86:19

cost 14:4,6

15:2,11,16

16:1,20 17:4,7

18:4 19:17,21,22

24:7 25:14

29:18,19,22

76:13 84:4,14

111:11,20

116:16 137:1,2,3

140:17 141:10

142:12,17,19,21

143:3,7,11,12,15

,18 144:1,2,4,6

145:1 146:11,12

147:7,11,16

148:17

149:4,5,7,8,13,1

7,19,21 154:12

155:11,12,13,15,

21 157:19

166:8,11

167:13,17

182:12 183:4,19

185:2,10,15

197:15 208:9

225:1,3 247:16

274:2 278:19

329:12 352:10

367:17 373:15

costs 13:5 15:3

16:14,16,19

19:19,21 24:8,22

128:21 135:14

136:18,19,22

137:1,6 140:5,22

141:2,6,14,15

142:18 145:22

146:5,19,20

148:2,15 149:16

154:19 155:14

157:3 160:7,20

163:21 164:3

182:6 185:10

207:6 209:7,9

247:7

Council 5:2 115:15

192:17

count 228:13

country 97:10

couple 21:12 23:5

32:14 38:20

39:17 43:6 66:8

69:3 72:6,7

88:19 106:8

120:19 176:8,15

188:10 194:22

212:10 213:4

217:12 230:2

273:5 285:3

288:7 306:18

341:17 343:12

coupled 36:1 67:3

138:5 139:4

304:22 306:12

course 11:4 12:12

27:5 148:22

193:11 269:20

314:2

Court 379:5,7

cover 73:20 94:11

120:8 141:1

251:2 270:13

271:20 277:19

301:2 308:14

310:20 314:19

327:5

coverage 116:20

117:14 248:2

314:18

covered 191:18

194:13 219:16

236:14 237:3

239:12 304:6

306:7 319:1

covering 99:14

180:12 199:10

CR 220:18

cracks 249:4

craft 243:17

245:11 248:12

269:1

crafting 253:6

craps 76:20

crashed 286:18

CRE 142:12

147:16

create 32:1 44:9

122:19 205:5
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209:10 233:19

306:16

creek 295:16,18

crevices 249:4

criteria 11:10

14:19 25:7 264:3

278:1,15 354:15

critical 347:1

cross 17:10 121:3

cross-outs 120:20

crosswalk 281:1

CRs 210:4,6

cryogenics 216:5

cube 113:6

cubic 266:8,10

269:13,16,19

270:6,12,18

275:21

cue 312:4

cued 310:19

cup 272:9 377:22

curiosity 356:13

curious 209:19

372:15

current 23:9,12

117:21 156:2

187:4 189:17

284:20

currently 84:18

109:18 171:11

374:22

curve 15:2 103:11

142:12

328:2,6,21 330:3

331:7 334:13,17

340:19,22 341:4

351:8,12 359:2

362:20 364:14

365:15 373:21

374:18 377:1

curves 375:14

376:13

custom 144:17

145:7

customer 68:15

315:12 317:21

327:3 336:20

344:19 359:5

customers 273:22

279:10 354:8

359:1

customer's 110:11

cut 44:13 100:12

101:7 124:8

286:6,11,12,21

cutting 106:5

cycle 13:5

16:1,14,20 18:4

19:17,19,21

32:15 84:4,14

85:2 86:7 87:8

111:11 116:15

cycles 87:17

D

D.C 3:5,16 249:9

dairy 251:13,20

Dan 2:12 5:16

110:22

135:15,17

138:10 139:12

140:3 144:11

147:21 157:7,12

164:1 181:17

182:22

184:21,22

185:17

darker 375:3

data 10:14 12:1,20

25:22 32:1

33:9,11 34:9,13

41:6 42:20

43:9,15,16,20,21

44:10,14,20

45:9,12,14 46:18

47:15,17,19

48:11 49:8 51:22

53:10,13

55:4,6,19

56:2,12 57:14

58:2,6 61:12,20

62:12,20 63:2

65:8,17,22 66:4

68:10 86:3,5

88:8,12,13,14

94:1

95:1,5,6,11,12

96:5 98:1 102:14

117:22 118:17

127:6 135:14

138:12

140:7,10,12

141:16 142:21

143:10

147:8,11,18

150:9 155:3

158:17,21

161:13 166:1

182:7 187:9

192:10 207:15

209:19 221:16

222:8 238:8

246:8,12,16

285:3,6,9,11

286:13 287:12

288:8 291:14

351:5,11

352:20,21 353:3

356:14 358:2,17

362:4 365:11,12

370:6,16 373:22

database 368:18

date 196:13 206:18

231:6 232:18

324:16 379:15

day 7:5 53:14 64:9

71:12 75:5 85:12

104:3 159:4,7

215:22 263:21

290:8 310:9

311:5 374:13

377:15

378:4,7,14

days 8:20 9:10

27:6 81:5 86:14

291:10

DC 1:14

deal 85:16 174:17

259:15 294:20

dealing 85:8

245:10 281:9

deals 85:21

dealt 177:15,17

debate 50:11

December 196:17

decide 22:17

129:10 157:9

175:19 199:11

264:2 269:3

274:19 283:6

decided 9:6 94:18

110:15 234:12

277:10,16 283:4

305:22 366:20

decides 202:21

203:1,6 277:20

deciding 228:12
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decimal 170:17

decision 30:4

129:2,8,19

228:10,16

decisions 58:11

102:8 130:10

168:4 174:15

184:16 283:9

deck 310:12

312:17

decline 108:6,20

197:22

declining 197:18

decreased 364:2

365:17

decreasing

365:5,20,22

366:1

dedicated 195:20

198:10 199:3,17

200:2 204:11

206:11 213:5

deep 97:8 182:2

deeper 356:10

default 100:7

101:4 333:21

334:9 371:11

defeating 239:8

defer 119:11

define 9:3 19:13

31:17 199:15

213:18,20 248:7

257:17 262:4

276:18 277:8

322:15 326:22

337:8 338:5

339:6 354:1

defined 8:7 35:7

195:15 258:7

274:14

275:14,16,17

304:6 319:3

332:2

defines 19:10

256:21

defining 263:5

269:14,20

276:20

definitely 62:7

88:1 186:15

263:2 270:4

322:13 350:10

definition 9:4

20:15 198:14

244:22 245:6

248:5,13 253:2,5

256:12 257:6

258:5,10 260:17

262:18 265:21

267:3,21,22

268:4 269:20,21

271:18

275:16,22

298:2,17 303:4

319:18 322:1,14

definitions 213:17

243:15 250:14

275:11 303:14

degradation 108:9

degree 75:17

degrees 266:14

275:18

349:12,15

deliberations

186:3

deliver 273:15

376:6

delivering 343:21

dell 347:19

delta 111:1,16

115:18,19

116:8,10

demonstrated

190:13

denominator

301:11 313:8

334:10,20,21

338:4,7

341:11,14,16

342:11,13

343:20 370:20

371:1 375:15

denominators

342:21

denote 340:21

density 275:20

276:3 349:16

350:6,10,21

department

1:10,13 7:3

33:11 34:5

183:22 186:21

192:4 253:1,10

dependent 84:20

depending 27:7

31:3 67:19 129:9

137:6 174:7

depends 31:10

72:10 75:8 92:4

93:14 95:10

114:17 115:1

202:22 215:16

264:21 290:11

295:9 317:21

depicts 12:16

derails 238:14

deriving 283:21

desalination

306:14

describe 32:3

described

50:17,20,21

114:21

describes

343:15,16

description 251:5

276:19

descriptions 26:22

28:15 200:2

design 14:17,20

101:12 104:6

137:12 180:15

183:7 208:18,19

209:2,6,9 210:18

211:14 222:2

244:8,13,15

247:16 249:8

250:12

251:12,19

289:18 296:11

358:11

designed 244:4

245:16,18

254:10,22

255:3,5 256:1

263:8 266:12

327:4 354:16

designers 338:21

designer's 339:14

designing 103:5

323:20 355:13

designs 182:13

288:19 307:12

detail 14:8 18:18

20:10 25:11
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94:19 98:15

146:13 149:11

180:17 227:12

281:7 335:3

337:9

detailed 229:19

240:20 312:22

details 20:19

199:22 301:12

316:2 318:14

determination

194:12

determine 13:18

15:12 17:13 40:1

44:12 69:5 149:1

262:4 349:2

363:3

determined 245:2

362:5

determining 14:20

25:7 120:8 129:5

351:7

develop 152:10

167:18 249:4

355:1 376:8,18

developed 33:8

developing 146:2

167:14

development

233:18 282:20

devote 11:2

dewatering 212:9

diagram 12:15

diameter

110:17,18,21

113:6 114:22

215:18 351:22

352:3,11

353:2,10

354:2,15

Dicussion 219:13

diesel 285:18,20,21

286:16

288:19,20

289:4,19 302:14

303:7 304:1

difference 19:10

24:2 30:3 49:21

67:11 87:19

100:19 113:5

121:21 154:6

157:19 174:18

179:22 189:11

222:13

224:16,21 273:9

279:6 294:16

329:12,20

366:15 367:10

differences 180:10

183:4

different 15:3,10

16:3,7,8,12 17:7

18:13 23:22 25:4

29:2 32:13 37:5

39:7 49:9 52:11

65:8 67:19

68:8,11,19 76:1

78:3,9 80:7 95:7

98:1 101:1

105:14 109:14

112:19,20

127:17 131:5

139:15 145:18

148:8 151:9

154:9 164:2,3,4

167:20

180:14,15

181:3,7,8,20

182:5 183:10

185:5,8 197:1

212:7 213:14

214:22 215:5

220:9,13 225:5

233:3 234:15

235:11 236:22

237:6 251:3

255:7 273:8,10

276:11 280:18

289:3 291:20

296:13 306:17

307:17 313:2

323:5,8,19,21

325:20 326:2,10

328:10,15,17

329:13 330:4

335:7 339:13

340:11,19,20

345:12 355:2

357:11 361:4

365:4 366:2

376:13 377:9,10

differentiate

159:19 195:8

differentiated

163:14

differentiating

371:10 377:10

differentiation

160:21 194:19

differently 87:21

129:21 256:2

322:4 323:20

difficult 39:9,10

103:11 104:11

difficulties 6:19

diffuser 210:18

digest 311:2

digit 134:13,15

direct 235:7,14,18

242:13 299:13

direction 283:5

291:15 339:13

directions 307:14

directly 305:13

discharge 216:7

223:18 340:1

discharging

223:17

disciplined 4:6

discovered 282:15

discrete 12:3

Discusion 196:21

discuss 9:15

108:15 117:1

151:14,16

156:10 182:22

183:1 333:3

377:3

discussed 26:16

45:8 179:3

327:16 358:3

362:7 370:3

discussing 37:3

66:1 69:4 207:17

347:13 360:17

discussion 27:18

41:8 74:15

83:2,6,17 102:7

110:6 117:17,19

151:1 165:6

192:9,11 199:1

204:14 218:14

221:8 225:16

226:20 232:9

237:15,19 239:3

247:10 259:22

264:18,20

267:19 269:11

270:1 276:5
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284:19 301:19

305:21 310:18

326:9,21 327:14

334:8 341:12

342:12 353:15

361:9 362:1

376:2

discussions 26:1

121:22 148:10

164:16

displacement

260:5 261:19

disregarding

267:7

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292:2

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306:16 350:9

friction 340:5

friend 153:1 249:9

293:11

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301:13

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fulfill 26:3

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56:2 66:5 72:22

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gage 141:13

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gallon 345:10

gallons 344:1

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group 1:10 3:14

27:13,15 29:1

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38:6,17 52:3

54:9 61:17

118:13 129:20
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171:21 174:10

177:18 178:4

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251:12,15

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22:17 25:16 41:1

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half 82:17 84:6,11

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97:4,8,11

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100:5,8,11,15

114:15 115:5,9

118:7 119:22

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139:11,14

144:9,10,14

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150:16 151:14

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194:9,15,18,21

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97:5 165:1 274:5
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210:11 227:5

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45:7,18 46:1

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289:1

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98:10

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hygienic
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288:9 294:17

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increments 110:9

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induction 137:19

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265:12 271:20

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210:19

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244:6

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280:20 363:4

interpretation

172:18,19
Capital Reporting Company

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interpretations

264:20

interpreting 322:4

interrupt 34:20

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180:17

182:12,16

introduce 5:21

introduction

136:22

introductions 3:20

4:7

invective 71:17

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364:22

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183:14

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367:14

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249:21

justification 10:6

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key 56:8 226:15

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kicking 153:1

211:4

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269:12,15,18

270:7,12 275:21

kilowatt 111:18,19

kinds 13:18 87:1

216:8 289:2

296:1

kinematic 271:10

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knowledge 273:17

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303:6

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233:6,7,13

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lab 5:19 183:21

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language 28:12

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18:14,20,22

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Capital Reporting Company

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lifetimes 23:10

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114:6 115:16

130:7 148:21

152:7 223:21

224:19 225:12

228:20 231:1

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85:16,21 86:5,11

88:8,12 102:7

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210:22 211:9,22

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216:22 236:14

282:21 284:13

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314:17 317:8

324:12 332:8

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21:22 22:1 25:21

69:21 70:7,8

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79:16 83:22

87:14 109:8,9

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114:5,17 116:13

122:5,6 124:4

129:22 166:5,6

172:4 177:6

198:3 204:15

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222:9,11 223:7

226:2 234:3

266:10 325:4,5

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363:12

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99:8 103:22

105:2 166:9,12

291:5

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30:11 74:6 101:8

112:4 122:18

145:16 146:11

156:14,16

173:10,13 244:9

288:1 352:21

353:2 354:19

358:5 373:9,10

lowest 124:13

274:2

Lucas 2:7 4:22

19:7 25:19

27:10,12

29:13,22 73:22

86:21 87:2 88:3

89:8 115:12

116:6 118:12

129:3 130:15

136:1 167:5

184:11 187:2

189:2 200:19

202:18 230:1

233:1 245:7

248:9 252:20

262:18 268:3

296:3 298:22

304:18 312:16

315:17 318:17

320:13

Lucas's 231:16

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125:16,18

129:2,18 173:21

174:1 179:15

187:13

188:12,15,16,19

190:16

191:8,19,22

192:8,9,10,13

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M10 33:10

machine 52:2

76:13 219:16

272:18

magnet 376:7

magnitude 62:21

main 14:14 25:10

58:12 297:10

306:22

mainly 10:9 74:20

80:1 216:4

322:16

major 140:12

188:8 237:1

346:21

majority 33:4

36:22 38:12

137:21 138:1,13

139:1,2,5,21

155:13

makings 105:12

140:10 180:4

making's 196:5

manager 288:9,10

mandated

277:2,17

manufacture

14:22 40:11

69:16 135:13

145:15 149:10

322:15

manufactured

137:9 144:17

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13:7 58:16 137:2

141:1 144:18

147:10 149:17

150:9 180:16

182:15 226:13

299:7 302:13

318:21,22

320:18 321:22

322:15 326:22

370:5 376:22

377:1,5

manufacturers

36:5,20 37:13

52:11,22 56:8

58:10,22 60:2

66:6 91:15

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103:5,13 105:7

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140:11,12 141:5

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148:14 151:12

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157:4 163:21
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164:16 165:4

166:2 168:2,17

176:6,22 180:1

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203:14 206:19

207:2 267:20

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27:10,11 29:1

31:21 35:1

36:17,18 39:6

43:4 48:14,19

55:9 56:5 63:13

71:7 77:7 82:20

96:4 99:18,19

101:2 114:14,15

126:6 132:13

138:20 144:9,10

145:8 156:20

194:15 195:13

203:17 207:13

218:15 246:19

355:5

marked 131:18

market 13:15,16

14:8 15:19 21:9

23:2 33:9 34:19

36:22

37:17,18,21

39:15,19 40:2

66:10 67:20

78:16,17 102:9

106:5 107:17,19

114:2 128:22

137:22 138:1

139:5,7 148:22

154:18 155:21

156:2,3,6 157:20

175:14 176:12

181:7 183:18

185:11 195:4,15

197:18,22 211:1

226:8 294:13

298:5,9 369:16

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68:7 173:2

326:15,19

344:16

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218:9,10 246:19

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149:10,12,17,18

150:8 151:12

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144:8 150:3

151:7,20

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mass 174:11

massaged 325:9

Master 365:12

368:18 373:22

match 41:6 115:6

161:4,21

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material 7:15 9:22

118:5 163:12

187:3 247:17

materials 86:15

145:5 244:5,9

math 46:15 60:19

174:9 269:18

matter 22:19 71:18

73:5,14 75:12

85:8 99:12 111:3

116:16 130:2,4

171:18 174:12

279:1,22 287:20

298:14 303:2

344:15 345:3

366:22

367:13,15,20

matters 202:3

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185:17 194:4,10

217:12,15,22

218:13 227:21

247:4 248:4

250:18 299:6,11

max 93:5 98:20

100:20 105:17

106:8,9

122:10,12,22

123:4,7

124:12,15 125:8

131:7 135:3

158:22 352:11

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125:9 271:10

275:3,4,18,20

349:4 351:8,12

maxs 122:20

may 18:21 39:5

74:6,7,20 76:15

78:3 81:1,17,19

110:8 117:5

128:6,17 137:14

186:2,6 188:4

220:9 222:6

227:21 230:11

233:4

244:9,21,22

249:21 250:1

264:17 267:1

282:17 296:17

315:12,13 318:5

320:21

324:15,16 335:5

349:12 373:22

maybe 7:6 8:20

11:2 27:9

42:8,21 43:11

56:12 63:13

68:12 71:1,3

74:5 84:12

88:1,11 106:6

125:12,13,17

129:20 130:1

132:15 133:7

157:17 160:8

177:10 180:5,7

192:12 202:8

207:8 209:11
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237:18 253:2

262:3 265:20

267:3 268:21

270:9 271:12,13

272:5 284:18

288:4 293:10

295:21,22 300:7

301:21 303:12

310:5 311:2

313:10 345:12

361:13 372:14

Mayor's 76:21

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5:12

mean 18:5,17

20:18 21:13

26:16 27:18 28:2

30:7 33:17 42:15

46:16 49:6,15

51:21 56:5 57:3

61:14 65:10

68:10 72:22 78:6

81:8 82:7,10

84:12 85:21

88:12 89:8 90:22

92:2 93:22 94:7

95:4 97:17 98:14

101:22 104:13

106:5 108:18

109:20 110:13

117:10,11 118:2

120:3,12 121:19

122:14 124:3,11

125:19 129:4

131:13 152:14

160:6 164:17,22

165:9 170:18

173:4 180:9

185:20 186:14

189:4 193:18

194:6 201:1

208:2 217:1

218:19 224:17

225:5 228:21

233:6 234:11,13

253:13 256:14

258:6 259:14

263:1 264:21

265:1,4 266:18

268:6,14 281:9

294:6,12 306:6

311:13 316:8

322:3 326:1

336:7 342:5

345:16 350:16

354:19 355:10

373:10

meaning 26:2

274:3 338:22

means 17:17 18:6

70:18 111:14

200:21 201:17

238:13 277:6

338:5 339:15

355:21

meant 270:5

meantime 177:2

measure 366:14

367:18

measured 7:21

356:18 370:12

371:7,13

measurement

277:4

measures 323:4

measuring 277:9

346:22

350:20,21

mechanical 84:19

224:2 339:3

media 269:17

medium 159:20

160:1 351:17

meet 101:13 180:3

188:11,15

229:10 244:22

302:21 316:18

317:14 318:5

320:1,5,9 323:21

343:16,18

353:22 354:15

meeting 1:9 3:15

44:4 48:2 49:1

62:2,3 94:17

117:19 119:7

130:13 181:12

190:7 192:7

228:14 238:7

243:8 252:10

263:2 264:15,18

267:19 302:3

312:11,21

313:21 314:2,8

343:6 362:11

378:13

meetings 23:5

26:16 138:21

179:1 192:5

235:5 283:17,19

331:20

meets 264:3

Meg 2:6 4:20 7:16

40:14,18 54:21

91:20 107:14

131:2,4

179:14,19

196:11 209:15

234:5,21,22

237:18 238:1

Meg's 240:22

MEI

44:5,6,9,12,13

46:3 98:2,5,6

99:2 101:1,3,20

102:1,4,20

106:4,6 131:9,11

274:16 325:9

343:14,15

346:17,22

347:1,14

member 6:5

members 116:4

187:10

227:15,17

228:15 236:7

239:21 268:2

294:5 295:1

313:21

membership 32:8

memo 284:21

295:2

memory 228:10

mention 280:1

355:10

mentioned 29:17

131:4 132:14

265:21 312:16

358:14

mentioning 39:8

340:10

merited 233:21

merits 219:18

mesh 271:6

mess 128:20

199:22

message 77:3

messing 356:1

met 8:13 237:17

meter 266:9,10
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270:6,18 275:21

meters 270:12

275:19 306:2

method 313:3

348:19 364:3

368:20

methodology

275:5

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326:3

348:12,15,17

metric 21:21 22:18

94:17 113:20

186:1 279:21

280:16,17

297:12,18

299:12

300:16,20

301:2,6,9 303:13

308:14 309:4

312:9,13

314:15,18

315:1,18

326:14,17

327:4,13 336:19

337:4,19

343:5,8,22

344:12 347:4,10

373:7 375:22

376:10

metrics 9:10,11,13

300:6 302:4

310:10 323:17

344:17 346:1

MIA 186:5

middle 27:9 51:14

159:4 163:17

210:21 284:8

369:7

mid-range 106:10

miffed

178:11,17,18

mile 53:11 290:17

miles 289:11

290:13

military 306:13

milk 249:6

mill 104:14

milligrams

266:8,10

million 148:18,19

174:6

min 98:20 100:19

122:10,22 123:7

124:12,15 125:8

281:4

mind 69:19 73:10

122:11 223:22

245:19 273:9

minimally 316:4

334:12,16

368:16

minimize 244:7

minimum 92:21

93:4,9 98:7,9

101:8,10,13

102:2 107:7

123:17 125:8

133:21 135:2

158:16 163:17

267:6,10 279:22

280:7 323:14

370:6

mining 212:8,14

minor 31:1 281:7

372:18

mins 122:20

minus 17:18 18:5

266:13

267:6,10,17

275:19 339:3

minute 63:14

136:10 227:22

228:2 272:4

312:7 345:10,13

minutes 7:7 64:1

188:12 207:10

227:12 229:9

264:16,18 272:7

369:18 374:7

misleading 332:14

mismatch 337:4

misremembering

320:21

miss 101:14

missed 49:1

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missing 56:8

58:9,16 59:1

60:5,9,10,11,13

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mission 253:18

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mistake 339:20

misunderstood

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mix 83:15 113:8

model 24:21 29:3

80:18 87:18

109:15 111:22

181:9 185:10

353:18 354:3

models 22:18

80:11,17 105:8

modify 181:9

231:6

moment 30:12

66:5 91:1 301:20

monetize 25:13

money 76:14

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monitoring 76:14

month 75:21

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75:19 200:21

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288:22

morning 3:3,4 4:8

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43:6 76:22 81:3

136:4 218:14,21

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218:1 281:8

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motels 160:3

motor 92:3,4 96:5

101:4 137:1

138:5 140:6,22

142:7,9

143:3,8,19

145:17,22

146:5,18,19

149:9,13

155:10,13 157:3

160:6,19 163:21

164:3 166:9

168:7,20 175:4

176:4 198:17

215:21

224:17,18,19,20
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292:16

299:13,16,21

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313:1,2,5

314:20,22

315:22

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318:4,7 321:16

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330:1,3,4,5,15,1

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370:2,5,12,14,16

371:3,7,19,20

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373:5,21,22

376:5,16,17

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motors

137:7,8,10,13,18

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140:16,20

141:7,16,19

142:22 143:14

144:15,20

145:13 168:21

176:19 180:13

181:3 289:17

290:9 301:2,14

303:5 306:1,4

309:17 315:11

320:2 325:2,14

347:11,12

359:15 365:12

376:7,14

mount 36:7 38:21

39:18 223:11

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mounts 72:7

move 31:15 35:14

42:21 97:13

116:22 117:8

187:20,22

203:21 205:10

207:19 217:9

227:11 236:14

239:12 247:22

252:8 300:12

310:10 343:3,10

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357:18,20

361:22 362:2

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136:2 190:1

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108:15 109:20

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179:13 235:21

236:2 237:3

239:17 241:12

294:13 327:11

355:16 362:13

365:15

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multi 41:11,15

50:14 219:22

292:13

multiple 34:16

81:11 128:12

208:8,16 294:4

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multiplied 24:9

multiply 149:3

364:18 365:7

multiplying

360:19

multi-stage 35:15

40:21 77:22

210:11 211:16

municipal 69:15

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municipality 76:17

myself 118:14

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narrow 342:22

nation 21:3

national 5:19

13:8,11 23:18,19

244:6

nationally 24:3

natural 285:18

291:15

292:18,22

293:9,17

Navigant 5:16

175:12 279:21

NDA 46:18 47:16

55:20 57:20

61:5,8,11 66:1

neat 86:10

Nebraska 74:20

288:10

289:11,12

291:18 292:20

293:2,4

necessarily 18:18

19:9 60:7 88:7

99:12 156:4

168:14 169:21

186:14 228:20

232:21 253:8

necessary

141:7,9,10

254:19 354:5

necessity 276:1

NEEA 5:6 109:9

122:7 361:12

negative 17:9

24:11

neglect 360:18

negotiate 201:7

232:22 273:21

negotiated 3:14

25:20 177:9

193:7 235:15

negotiating 177:17

253:21 274:12

negotiation 8:7 9:4

11:22 22:7 26:14

31:17 168:16

193:2,18

196:4,15 200:13

201:18 202:1,2

203:22 205:11

206:12 269:7

negotiations

177:14,16

neighborhood

27:7 228:19

NEMA 33:4 43:8
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NEMA-BIS 33:4

50:21

net 19:11 23:18

24:5,11,20

25:2,3 171:22

neutral 298:13

neutrality 294:17

newly 135:12

news 287:7

NGO 206:20

NGOs 273:2

NIA 186:2,5

nice 283:20

niche 246:19

Nidec 5:9

night 38:10 96:6

nine 241:18 252:15

nipping 292:15

NIST 183:21

nitty 301:12

nobody 76:14

208:20 337:13

nodding 116:4

227:8

nomenclature

205:1 216:16

333:2

nomenclatures

77:5

nominal 327:19

non 9:7 89:18

102:3 284:9

287:19,22

296:17 303:18

306:3 308:14,17

non-attainment

294:11

non-clean 254:22

none 95:1 158:21

241:21 246:20

277:22 296:9

337:21

non-electric

284:20 285:19

287:18 294:19

295:4 301:2

309:12,17

non-immersible

41:14

nonprofit 273:13

NOPR 24:18 27:19

28:8,12 184:13

normal 108:7,21

330:17

335:15,17

normalization

335:18

normally 11:20

12:9,17 26:20

normative 276:14

277:5,13

north 80:7

northwest 5:1,19

93:13,17 115:14

192:16

note 66:3 116:3

135:7 178:1

182:11 196:7

200:6 302:2

333:16 348:19

356:9 374:19

noted 3:21 206:5

notes 231:4 379:7

nothing 8:20 91:16

106:15,16

272:21 273:3

notice 12:4 28:15

68:4 202:4

253:17 262:16

noticed 70:16

262:15

notified 6:12

noting 308:10

nowhere 270:7

nozzle 340:6,7

NRDC 4:20 40:18

131:4

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nuclear 258:11

259:4 261:12

numerator 334:5

338:2 341:15

nut 190:11

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obligation 26:3

observation 96:18

157:18 174:4

183:15 313:19

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362:20

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obviously 20:18

48:8 60:15 72:3

79:5 92:4,16

105:1 145:10

153:21 154:8

157:9 255:6

271:9 274:12

281:11 294:6

311:20 356:4

occurred 269:11

305:22

occurring 288:18

occurs 189:10

o'clock 64:1,9

377:16

ODP 371:19 372:4

OEM 316:14

318:1

offer 177:3,13

239:4 244:21

offered 227:16

353:10

offering 262:17

office 124:6 160:3

321:16

official 241:2

off-shore 319:22

oftentimes 278:8

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89:4,11 125:4

132:9 133:11

136:6 148:12

153:3 163:7

202:10 217:4

232:1 242:20

243:21 257:19

259:5 261:8

262:8 267:9

278:13 283:13

303:7 307:17

321:3 332:10

360:2 373:9
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OH7 201:11

oil 212:11,14 216:4

okay 6:9,10 7:18

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17:21 20:17

21:1,16,19 22:21

23:6 25:16

28:7,10,13,18

29:7,8 31:5,15

34:3 37:7 38:1

39:21

40:4,6,13,14

42:14 43:3 44:15

45:5 46:5,22

47:12 48:7

49:5,14,19 50:15

51:6,19 52:10,17

53:3,6,8,17

55:2,3 57:1

60:14 61:9,16

62:9,13,17

64:6,14

65:5,9,16 68:16

69:21 70:7 73:17

75:1 77:12

78:5,19 79:4

81:17 82:5,9

83:7 84:13 85:8

86:8 89:4,12,14

92:7 93:6 94:3

95:17 97:12

103:4 104:11

107:12,21

109:21 120:6,9

121:1,22 122:5

124:20,22

126:4,17,20

127:2 129:22

130:14,15,17,22

131:17

132:11,21

133:11,13,19

134:2 135:10

136:16 139:4,6

151:17 157:22

158:1,15 161:10

163:3 170:13

183:3,11 185:16

191:1,6 193:11

194:20,21,22

195:5,9 198:3

200:5 201:13

202:4 205:4,16

213:8,21

214:12,13 215:3

217:5,8,14

223:5,14 227:10

228:22 229:5,6,9

230:6 231:18

232:20 233:22

235:21 236:18

239:7,16 240:16

241:6,10,11

244:1 245:21

246:14,17

249:12 251:8

252:20 255:18

258:8,12,14,18

259:8,11

261:4,11 262:21

266:10 267:9,12

268:20 269:5,8

270:20 271:12

278:16 280:7,10

281:18 283:8,11

288:4 296:3

298:11 299:22

300:5 301:3,21

305:19 306:10

308:9 312:7,8,9

314:13 317:16

319:22 322:20

327:6,11 330:2

331:15 333:1

336:20 339:1

343:4 344:9

351:3 356:17,19

357:9,10,22

359:7

360:2,10,16

362:3 366:13

369:15,19

371:12 372:5

374:9 375:6

old 57:12 324:15

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31:1,10

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ones 13:20 32:15

42:3 60:13 66:17

70:5 79:11 85:3

95:20 104:1

109:12 123:8

135:1 170:20

173:9 249:18

261:22 270:8

285:19 311:6,11

312:11 335:9

343:19 345:7

359:12

one's 124:11

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online 192:3

open 81:2 127:4

165:6 227:3

304:19 322:9,15

358:11

operate 69:11

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69:11,12,18 74:8

76:11 78:2,7,17

83:12,18,19

84:18,20,21

85:21 89:9 134:3

158:3 159:3,7

160:22 163:15

164:3 274:5

operation 56:19,21

66:16

67:14,15,21

68:4,7,22

69:5,8,20

70:10,17,21

79:18 82:7 87:20

126:16 130:7,8

133:14 134:9,10

276:8 290:5

307:16

operational 124:5

operations 94:6

122:13

opinion 85:22 87:9

129:20,21

319:20 320:14

opportunities

169:22

opportunity 25:21

43:9 111:20

168:17 176:2

178:13 272:22

361:9

opposed 171:15

223:20

241:20,21

345:10

ops 80:22

optimal 3:22

option 14:20

113:19 189:18

options 180:15

188:13 313:8

334:21 338:8

341:17 343:9

344:1 370:3
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orange 66:7

oranges 155:19

order 23:4 62:21

110:10 168:16

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284:5,6 359:20

organization

250:5,6 273:14

281:21

organizations

321:15

organized 314:3

original 6:10 51:16

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300:3

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others 10:8 21:17

31:21 35:18 78:3

171:18 193:7

220:1,8 260:4

261:19 290:3

291:19 331:8

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otherwise 8:22

83:20 264:3,4

297:17 321:4,6

ought 169:14

184:6 231:13

ounce 93:19

ours 123:8

ourselves 104:22

169:18 343:11

outcome 29:2

outdoor 4:2

272:21

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outlined 313:12

outnumbered

285:22

output 338:9,14

346:2 349:7,10

outputs 12:21

325:21 351:1

outset 9:19 192:4

230:5 313:12

outside 38:6 85:11

overall 58:6

150:20,21 180:7

211:14 225:4

overhead 145:6

overlap 199:9

overseas 320:2

oversimplification

s 350:15

overstate 128:3

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overview 7:3,7

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106:20

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P

P&L 79:20

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p.m 206:10 378:14

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package 99:11

187:17 224:17

317:20 318:3

332:18

packaged 189:11

packaging 316:17

320:8

packet 6:21 7:5 8:6

56:3 135:13

158:9,14 159:13

160:11 170:15

252:22 375:13

page 7:1 8:6 40:20

41:3 201:3

225:14 252:5

262:16,17 273:1

284:9

pages 268:4

273:2,5

pair 358:20

paired 336:15

358:21 360:7,14

373:4

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336:16 359:15

paperwork 72:4

parallel 12:11

parameters 35:13

115:18 244:4,9

256:9,14

260:14,18 261:8

271:18 304:5

pardon 3:8 9:21

117:6 187:21

parenthetical

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participants 35:7

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128:8

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116:10 150:18

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pay 156:3 167:17

292:5

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16:14 135:20,21
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percentages 105:2

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periods 13:5 164:4

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332:20 360:1

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perspective 139:17

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piece 139:3 269:4

324:2 347:15

pieces 50:2 113:4

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pipe 50:2 227:5

pipeline 226:19

pipes 292:15

307:13

piping 223:11

339:5

piston 222:19

pitch 293:15

pivot 75:5,9 96:2

290:7,11 291:9

293:5

pivots

289:6,8,9,14,21

places 80:1 151:8

291:22 292:1

plan 6:11 9:19

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plant 76:6,11,12

plants 76:8 168:3

324:6 354:8

plastic 195:4

platelets 289:15

platform 146:2

play 57:4 69:9 91:2
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playing 233:19

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91:17 99:4 100:5

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321:9 328:9

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214:10 219:14
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185:18 245:10
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278:7,10 280:22

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334:6,14

336:9,10

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45:7 55:17 65:21

66:21 95:1 149:5

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66:21 67:2 73:12

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139:19,21 143:6

148:18 149:3,4

163:9 171:10

183:19 186:2,5

222:5 246:5

shipment's 147:12

shipped 46:14 54:4

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320:2,3 347:22

348:2,6,8

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shorter 224:5

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223:7 275:7

288:12 302:22

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113:20 143:16

150:3 166:8

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shown 56:21 66:19

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181:9,20 182:13

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240:21 241:15

252:13

similar 140:19

171:17 172:9

275:21 312:11
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344:2 353:6

366:1 372:22

similarly 375:11

simple 16:20 377:3

simpler 302:2

simplicity 345:1,21

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simply 83:11

137:19,20 176:3

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170:11 171:9,16

195:18

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320:11 329:4

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323:5 327:5

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201:10

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239:14 241:17

252:14 275:19

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336:1,11 359:20

360:4 364:7,10

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160:1 363:17

373:18

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358:14 359:7

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slate 161:20

slide 7:4 11:17

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51:3 55:12,14,15

88:21 97:14

99:10 117:9

135:12 136:11

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158:10,12,13

159:13,16

160:10 161:8,9

162:12,13,20

170:15 171:3

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262:19 273:20

275:6 282:3

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311:9 312:17

314:17 326:12

343:3 351:2

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slides 47:20,22

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143:21 240:20

257:20 272:17

312:9,10,18

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169:6 342:14

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slow 115:10 290:3

slowly 192:19

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110:7 138:4

139:22 141:22

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182:2 195:13,14

211:19 246:15

289:16 295:9,21

331:11

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128:6 136:8

138:7 156:16

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sneaks 261:1

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social 25:14

29:17,19,22

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69:6,7,10 149:18

242:18 314:20

324:18,21

326:15 336:15

347:11

351:21,22

352:3,4 354:3

372:6 375:3

solid 256:5 266:9

270:19

solution 237:18

331:13

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somebody 63:12

74:21 200:22

219:6 264:9

303:22 316:17

325:2 332:7

336:4 340:7

someday 291:2

somehow 64:2

145:19 201:3

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177:14

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222:12 225:5

247:5 264:2

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125:10 131:12

193:5 228:18

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sooner 152:13

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sorry 14:13 17:1

18:1,16 39:11

40:15 48:22

54:22 64:22

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22:15 25:1 51:21

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square 290:20

squared 275:20

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staff 185:20 186:6

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standard 7:20
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13:1,3,9,13 17:2

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velocity 209:6

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verbiage 279:15

verified 346:6

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versions 136:9

versus 19:21 20:5

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vertically 276:19

verticals 85:16,17

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109:5,17

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