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© 2014 1

MEETING OF THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY Commercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group Wednesday March 26, 2014 9:00 a.m.

Department of Energy 1000 Independence Avenue SW Forrestal Building Washington, DC 20585

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© 2014 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S Doug Brookman 2 Douglas Potts Albert Huber 3 Mark Handzel Greg Case 4 Charles Cappellino Greg Towsley 5 Steve Rosenstock Paul Lin 6 Meg Waltner Alison Williams 7 Lucas Adin Tom Eckman 8 Robert Barbour Joanna Mauer 9 Louis Starr Gary Fernstrom 10 Robert Boteler Arnie Sdano 11 Brent McManis Laura Petrillo-Groh 12 Dan Weintraub Sarah Widder 13 Jeremiah Freeman Jack Graul 14 Chuck Powers
15 Betsy Kohl
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

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© 2014 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's get started.
3 Good morning everyone. I am so glad to
4 see you here on a cold wintry morning in
5 Washington, D.C.
6 this is --
7 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Same as last time.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon?
9 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I say it snowed
10 last time.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: It snowed last time. It
12 snowed this time. Not a lot this time
13 fortunately. This is the Commercial and Industrial
14 Pumps Negotiated Rule Making Working Group. This
15 is the fourth meeting today, March 26, 2014, here
16 in Washington, D.C.
17 My name is Doug Brookman, Public
18 Solutions in Baltimore.
19 Glad to see you all here.
20 Let's start by doing introductions. I
21 noted before we're in GH todaykind of a not an
22 optimal configuration but it worked last time. I

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© 2014 4 1 am sure we can make it work today. But everybody
2 has got to use their outdoor voices today to make
3 sure that they broadcast effectively over the web.
4 And also if we talk over each other the transcript
5 will be garbled. So we need to be a little
6 disciplined about that as we go along. We will
7 start with introductions.
8 MR. POTTS: Good morning, Doug Potts
9 from American Water.
10 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson Pump.
11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.
12 MR. CASE: Greg Case, Hydraulic
13 Institute.
14 MR. CAPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino, ITT
15 Corporation.
16 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steven Rosenstock,
18 Edison Electric Institute.
19 MR. LIN: Paul Lin with Regal Beloit.
20 MS. WALTNER: Meg Waltner, NRDC.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Alison Williams, LBL.
22 MR. ADIN: Lucas Adin, DOE.

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© 2014 5 1 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power
2 & Conservation Council.
3 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour, TACO.
4 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance
5 Standards Awareness Project.
6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA.
7 MR. FERNSTROM: Gary Fernstrom,
8 California Investor Owned Utilities.
9 MR. BOTELER: Rob Boteler, Nidec
10 Corporation.
11 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair.
12 MR. McMANIS: Brent McManis, Baldor
13 Electric.
14 MS. PETRILLO-GROH: Laura Petrillo-Groh,
15 AHRI.
16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub, Navigant.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Great.
18 MS. WIDDER: Sarah Widder, Pacific
19 Northwest National Lab.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Everyone get
21 a chance. Jack, Jeremiah, introduce yourselves.
22 MR. FREEMAN: Jeremiah Freeman, New West

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© 2014 6 1 Technologies.
2 MR. GRAUL: Jack Graul, Energetics.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.
4 Glad to see you all here. I am pleased
5 that we haven't had apparently -- just one member
6 absent I think.
7 MR. CASE: So we know that Chuck Powers
8 from Flowserve is coming.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
10 MR. CASE: Okay. He had an original
11 plan to bring a -- send a substitute but he
12 notified us that he is going to be here.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. We don't know when
14 he will arrive.
15 MR. CASE: No just -- we were expecting
16 him some time--
17 MR. BROOKMAN: So my comment is so
18 apparently we are not going to encounter as many
19 difficulties with travel then as we did last time.
20 That is all very good.
21 All of you received a packet of
22 information. And it is there at your seats. The

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© 2014 7 1 first page is our agenda elements. And I was
2 going to suggest a slight revision. The
3 Department sent out a presentation, an overview of
4 the rule making process in a power point slide
5 packet yesterday or the day before. And I thought
6 maybe we would start off this morning with that as
7 an overview. It will probably take 45 minutes or
8 so to go through it plus Q&A. I thought it would
9 be useful.
10 MR. LIN: You have got to speak up Doug.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Really?
12 MR. LIN: Yes.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: I can speak up. I
14 thought it would be useful to have that
15 presentation material set.
16 Meg are you having a hard time hearing?
17 MS. WALTNER: No, I'm fine.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Last time we had
19 several questions for those that are new to the
20 standard setting process about how employment
21 impacts are measured and a whole bunch of stuff
22 like that.

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© 2014 8 1 So I think if we had that presentation
2 that will allay -- provide some information and
3 allay some fears, both of those things.
4 So I thought we would start off with
5 that. And then going from there to the items you
6 see listed on Page 2 of this packet. Clearly
7 defined scope for this negotiation; pump types;
8 review the aggregate of results of new surveys as
9 they might be available and review updated
10 scenarios for circulator energy use savings and
11 payback.
12 I had a brief conversation with Gary
13 Fernstrom this morning. He said that he had met
14 with Alison and Alison had the -- that caucus's
15 new information to the extent it exists and she is
16 going to present on that.
17 Our expectation -- my expectation is
18 today we are going to proceed to a vote on
19 circulators. Everything we are going to do today -
20 - if we do nothing else in this two days maybe
21 just today is to establish scope. We really need
22 to get after that otherwise we are going to be way

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© 2014 9 1 far behind.
2 Then moving on from that first bullet
3 point under scope the second is clearly define
4 scope for negotiation, clean water definition for
5 pumps in scope. Exclusions we still haven't
6 decided what to do with sanitary pumps, then
7 applicability of standards of pumps with non8 electric drivers.
9 And then in addition over the span of
10 the next two days metrics. We made great progress
11 on metrics last time I thought. I thought there
12 was a lot of understanding in the room, take a
13 vote on metrics today we hope.
14 And then test procedure. We have
15 someone from HI that is going to discuss 40.6.
16 MR. HUBER: Yes. Arnie Sdano.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie. Thank you. Thank
18 you for joining us Arnie.
19 So that is the plan here at the outset.
20 Questions and comments about the agenda?
21 Okay. So pardon me, do you want to set
22 this up. The presentation material that was sent

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© 2014 10 1 in advance.
2 MR. ADIN: Sure. So as Doug pointed out
3 what we would like to do starting out is provide a
4 very general overview of standards setting
5 process, the analysis that we do for establishing
6 the justification for those standard. And I know
7 some of you in the room you are very familiar with
8 this, others perhaps not as much. This was really
9 mainly to address this.
10 Doug also pointed out some of the
11 questions we've been getting and to make sure it
12 is clear exactly what we are going to be doing
13 once we've established our scope and we know which
14 pumps we are looking at we start to use the data
15 you have been providing us to evaluate what our
16 standard levels are going to look like and whether
17 they are justified. I want to make sure you
18 understand how that process is actually going to
19 work with the analysis involved and hopefully
20 addressing more specific questions that you heard
21 about how we are going to consider things like
22 employment impacts, impacts on small business and

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© 2014 11 1 things like that.
2 So I figure maybe we could devote maybe
3 about an hour to that if we need it. We will go
4 through like I said pretty generally but of course
5 we are going to have questions on specific things.
6 Please feel free to ask as we go along. We will
7 answer those for you.
8 So I will go ahead and start it off.
9 So as we pointed out previously there
10 are seven general criteria that are used that are
11 actually specified in the Statute to be used for
12 establishing the basis for a standard. And those
13 are the items that are on the left side there. And
14 they all focus on various economic and technical
15 bases and energy savings potential of the
16 standard.
17 And we've also pointed out on this slide
18 which particular analyses we do that address each
19 of those factors and the stage during the rule
20 making in which we would normally conduct that
21 analysis. Understand that for rule making like
22 this where we are doing a lot through negotiation

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© 2014 12 1 and we are kind of collecting data as we go and
2 doing analysis as we go a lot of that so we don't
3 have discrete pre analysis and then refinement in
4 the notice of proposed rule-making phase. It
5 really will be kind of more compressed into one
6 phase of analysis. But we will still go through
7 all those things that are involved.
8 So that is again just the general
9 process that we normally go through for rule
10 making stages that we would do and as it points
11 out the test procedure is running parallel so we
12 have a proposal and a final rule during the course
13 of that standards rule making process. Usually it
14 takes about three years.
15 So this is our big flow diagram of all
16 the stuff that we do. This depicts what happens
17 normally during the preliminary analysis phase. So
18 I am not going to go through every item in there
19 because that might take an hour. But as you can
20 see there is a lot involved; a lot of data inputs;
21 a lot of outputs. But the general intent is to
22 establish a preliminary basis for some candidate

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© 2014 13 1 standard levels that we might consider for the
2 products that we are looking at. So we can come
3 up with a bunch of iterations of standard savings
4 of 10%, 20%, 30% et cetera and look at what the
5 life cycle costs and payback periods look like for
6 each of those. And then start to get into some of
7 the higher level stuff; manufacturer impacts and
8 then a broader national impact analysis. So if
9 you pick a standard at that level assuming a
10 certain level of shipments and based on typical
11 use at the consumer level; what are your national
12 energy savings going to look like at that
13 standard? This is the broader process of where
14 those things happen.
15 So we start out with a market and
16 technology assessment. What does the market look
17 like? What kind of technologies are actually in
18 use? Screening analysis to determine what kinds
19 of technological improvements can be made to the
20 product. Which ones are feasible? Which ones are
21 probably not based on economic factors, technology
22 that is readily available if it is not a

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© 2014 14 1 prototype, at least at the prototype phase we can
2 consider it. So and all that goes into an
3 engineering analysis where we look at
4 realistically what would it cost to implement
5 those things. What kind of efficiency will we
6 get? There is a cost for efficiency improvement.
7 So I don't know if you guys want to talk
8 in a little bit more detail about market type
9 assessment.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I don't know that
11 we need to --
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Loudly, loudly.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. I think we just
14 pretty much went over it; you know the main part
15 is where we figure out what equipment classes we
16 are looking at; what is the baseline from which we
17 are going to consider these additional design
18 actions to improve efficiency; and then in
19 screening analysis of that there is four criteria
20 for determining whether or not a design option is
21 something that could be considered. And the
22 practicability to manufacture and things like that

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© 2014 15 1 and so then what is left goes in the engineering
2 analysis and the basic cost efficiency curve of
3 what it costs to get to each different efficiency
4 level. So does anybody have questions on that
5 section of the analysis?
6 You guys all of you add something. So
7 no more questions.
8 Okay.
9 So the next step is once you have the
10 engineering analysis which involves the different
11 efficiency levels and the cost of them, we also
12 look at mark-ups to determine equipment price. So
13 we have mark-ups based on distribution channels
14 and mark-up segments that are specific to the pump
15 industry. And we apply them separately to the
16 baseline cost as well as the incremental cost of
17 this improved efficiency. And so that analysis
18 gives us the equipment price that we use when we
19 are looking at effects on the market.
20 Questions?
21 Okay. So the next analysis is the
22 energy use which primarily gets -- or sort of it

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© 2014 16 1 is built into the life cycle cost analysis. We
2 are basically looking at the amount of energy the
3 pumps use under these different scenarios. And
4 this is not -- so how
5 -- basically how we are going to do it
6 this time is that we will be looking at the energy
7 use in different sectors: industrial, commercial,
8 and agricultural. We find different sources of
9 information to find out operating hours, you know
10 how large the pumps are in the application, how
11 they are used, that kind of thing to figure out
12 the energy use analysis under these different
13 scenarios. And that gets rolled into the life
14 cycle costs and payback period.
15 So it combines the engineering analysis
16 which is how much it costs to get to higher
17 efficiency and the energy analysis combined with
18 electricity price to find your total operating
19 costs. You combine those two things and it gives
20 you the life cycle cost results on a simple level.
21 So we look at -- all these things go
22 into it but in the end we are really looking at --

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© 2014 17 1 sorry, we are looking at what percentage of the
2 population benefits from a standard, what
3 percentage is burdened, what percentage is not
4 impacted and on average you know the cost or
5 savings to those people.
6 So even if we are looking at a certain
7 equipment cost and different efficiency levels, if
8 there is a case where you know too many people are
9 burdened or there is negative LCC savings then
10 typically DOE might you know would cross them off
11 the list. So that is how -- you know you are
12 basically not already stuck doing something
13 because these analyses determine where DOE can go
14 with these.
15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a quick one for
16 everyone's clarification when you say no impact
17 for the LCC that means that the LCC is plus or
18 minus 2% of the baseline LCC; is that what that --
19 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Steven
20 Rosenstock. We are going to start using our names
21 now, okay?
22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI,

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© 2014 18 1 sorry about that.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Now Alison.
3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: When you say no impact
4 in terms of the Life Cycle Cost analysis doesn't
5 that mean plus or minus about 2% of --
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Typically no impact means
7 that a consumer was already purchasing a higher
8 efficiency product and so when there is a standard
9 they are not impacted because they can make the
10 same product choice after the standard is in
11 place.
12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That's -- Steve
13 Rosenstock from EEI, that is different from my
14 understanding of the LCC analysis.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison repeat what it is.
16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: So I mean we don't
18 necessarily need to get into this level of detail
19 but when we are sort of looking at winners and
20 losers on the LCC there are a type of people that
21 may not be impacted. And typically those people,
22 like when we start the LCC we start with the base

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© 2014 19 1 case efficiency distribution. So some consumers
2 are already purchasing high efficiency pumps. And
3 so in the case of a standard they still can
4 purchase that same pump they were going to
5 purchase before. So they are essentially not
6 impacted by the standard.
7 MR. ADIN: This is Lucas Adin. Just to
8 clarify I don't know if we are talking about the
9 same thing necessarily. It might be the
10 difference between what defines no impact for a
11 particular consumer or net impact across all
12 consumers; is that really one of the questions -
13 how do you define what's - Well how do you define
14 what

-- 15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well your summary
16 tables -- Steven Rosenstock, EEI, in the summary
17 tables of Life Cycle Cost Analysis for hybron (ph)
18 efficiency levels it says you know lower life
19 cycle costs you know benefit -- people who
20 benefit, people who don't benefit your lower life
21 cycle cost versus higher life cycle costs versus
22 "no impact" cost, that is what I was referring to.

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© 2014 20 1 And I thought --
2 MS. WILLIAMS: That is what I answered.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: So Steve --
4 MR. ADIN: So there is a percentage of
5 people who have a benefit versus a percentage that
6

--
7 MR. BROOKMAN: One thing Steve you've
8 got great familiarity with these -- with the
9 standard setting process. And so you go into
10 considerable detail here. And I want to keep this
11 kind of at an overview level for those in the room
12 that don't have any familiarity with this process.
13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was -- Steven
14 Rosenstock, EEI. I was trying to get it at a high
15 level just give the general definition.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for keeping it
17 there. Okay.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean obviously we will
19 go into those details when we get to the LCC. I
20 want to make sure we have the correct explanation
21 for that.
22 So any other questions on the LCC?

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© 2014 21 1 Okay. The next part is instead of
2 looking at individual consumers we looked at the
3 impact to the nation as a whole. This starts with
4 a shipment analysis.
5 MR. CAPPELLINO: I have a question on
6 the previous slide. Charlie Cappellino. So just
7 a general question is if you had to say kind of
8 where we are today looking at the flow chart?
9 MS. WILLIAMS: We are in the market and
10 technology

--
11 MR. CAPPELLINO: So we are still at the
12 first couple of blocks there?
13 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so --
14 MR. CAPPELLINO: And that is how much
15 percent complete; are we like --
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So like we are
17 working on some of these others. We are working
18 on all of these.
19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. But we can't
21 finalize them without scope and metric.
22 MR. BROCKMAN: Louis Starr?

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© 2014 22 1 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. Just to follow
2 on with that. This is typically these -- that
3 process that yellow ruler up there would be about
4 two year process. So we are condensing all that
5 and the idea is that we can work on some of those
6 things ahead of the time. And that's the
7 efficiency of the regulated negotiation is that
8 they are in theory working on some of those things
9 ahead of time. So we don't have to wait for you
10 to write a comment, then wait three months to
11 respond back here so we can respond. And so that
12 is the theory behind why it is a more efficient
13 way to do what we are doing.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: And you know we've really
15 been sort of working on those since the framework.
16 So it is not like we have to start all these from
17 scratch after you guys decide the scope and
18 metric. We are building the models and collecting
19 inputs for stuff. But it is just a matter of like
20 bringing everything together.
21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Okay. Thank you.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: But yes to be perfectly

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© 2014 23 1 clear we are at -- you know we have to finalize
2 the market and technologies first. And then once
3 we do that you know we will proceed to present
4 these individual analyses in order along in the
5 next couple of meetings.
6 Okay. So the shipment analysis
7 basically we try to do a shipment projection over
8 a 30 year analysis period. So we look at economic
9 indicators. We look at the current stock,
10 lifetimes. We usually do a distribution of
11 lifetime so we can analyze how many replacements
12 are needed to go into the current stock and that
13 basically generates - between replacement and
14 construction that generates that shipment
15 projection over the 30 year analysis period. And
16 so the shipment projection is combined with some
17 of the other things that we've done so far to
18 populate the national energy saving and net
19 present value. So the national energy savings is
20 basically how much energy would all those
21 shipments use in the base case and then how much
22 energy would they use in each of the different

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© 2014 24 1 standards cases we are looking at. We just look
2 at the difference between those two to see how
3 much energy can be saved nationally by
4 implementing the standards.
5 And then we look at the net present
6 value of implementing those standards which is
7 basically the increased installed cost of higher
8 efficiency units versus operating costs of the
9 higher efficiency units multiplied by all the
10 shipments in the projection. And so basically if
11 the net present value is negative that is another
12 indication that that standard level would not be
13 considered eventually.
14 Any questions?
15 Alright. So one thing that's -- this
16 says preliminary manufacturing impact analysis; so
17 in this stage we are combining preliminary
18 analysis and NOPR. We will basically be doing full
19 manufacturing impact analysis which basically
20 looks at industry cash flow and net present value
21 using the government regulatory impacts model. And
22 essentially it is just looking at conversion costs

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© 2014 25 1 and all sort of things that tell you what the
2 industry net present value is. And we look at the
3 change in the industry net present value using a
4 different standard that were are considering. You
5 know this is just an example of what the impacts
6 are at each level. And so that is another
7 criteria that can be used in determining what
8 standard to set.
9 And that pretty much -- those are the
10 main analyses. We do do a bunch of other analyses
11 that I don't think we need to go into in detail
12 here. We look at utility impacts, the emissions,
13 savings, monetize the emissions, you get you know
14 the social cost of carbon and all those things are
15 required to be done as part of this analysis.
16 Okay. Do you guys have any questions
17 about any of these analysis?
18 MR. BROOKMAN: So one thing I would ask
19 for clarification on and Alison, Lucas, perhaps
20 Betsy this negotiated rule making process provides
21 an opportunity as Louis already said to condense
22 the collection of data, the analysis of data, the

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© 2014 26 1 back and forth discussions surrounding
2 clarification of the meaning of all of that, and
3 DOE at the same time has an obligation to fulfill
4 its responsibilities by statute and other factors
5 to conduct complete analysis and do what they
6 would do in a standard rule making process.
7 So do you want to just add on to what
8 I've said?
9 MR. ADIN: I don't know that there is a
10 whole lot to add honestly.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Wow.
12 MR. ADIN: You've actually summarized
13 pretty well what we are attempting to accomplish
14 by using negotiation in place of the regular rule
15 making process. And understand as I think we've
16 discussed in previous meetings it doesn't mean
17 that we come up with a term sheet and we're done.
18 There still is a process after that. We have to
19 translate what has been put in the term sheet into
20 a proposed rule in the form that we would normally
21 produce it with all the analyses laid out and the
22 tables and the descriptions and all that and that

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© 2014 27 1 does take some time and pass through a legal
2 process. So that is why we had talked about this
3 time period between the submittal of the term
4 sheet and publication of the rule by the end of
5 the year. And then of course we collect comments
6 for a period of time and it is usually 60 days,
7 something in that neighborhood. And then depending
8 on the comments then it would be turned into a
9 final rule sometime maybe the middle of next year.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Lucas. Mark?
11 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.
12 So Lucas if the -- so suppose we reach an
13 agreement in this group. We make a recommendation
14 and then the analysis is done and it really says
15 right turn from what the group recommended.
16 MR. ADIN: Uh-huh.
17 MR. HANDZEL: Is there a procedure for
18 re- discussion? Or I mean how do you proceed with
19 getting to the NOPR stage from that point?
20 MR. ADIN: Well so let me clarify what I
21 said previously. So the analysis that will be
22 used to get to the standards that we're ideally

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© 2014 28 1 going to try to agree upon won't -- really won't
2 change. I mean the part of the agreement is as
3 laid out in the ground rules and you know
4 basically the tasking we are receiving from ASRAC
5 is to come up with a term sheet the DOE will
6 accept

--
7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
8 MR. ADIN: -- and propose in a NOPR. So
9 the idea is that they should not change.
10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
11 MR. ADIN: The analyses have been done.
12 We are just translating that into NOPR language.
13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
14 MR. ADIN: What we actually have to put
15 in a regulatory notice and all the descriptions
16 and explanations that we have to lay out for the
17 public so they understand what it is.
18 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Okay.
19 MR. ADIN: It is not that it would change
20 it is just that we have to --
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?
22 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary with a

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© 2014 29 1 comment for Mark. You know what this group can do
2 to affect the outcome is come to different
3 agreements on the inputs into the model. And I
4 think that is one of our principle tasks is to
5 come to agreement on what the inputs are as best
6 we can.
7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. Thank you.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So that was a very
9 brief presentation on a regulatory process that by
10 anyone's reckoning is very complicated and takes
11 several years to accomplish. So are there
12 additional questions at this point for Alison or
13 Lucas?
14 Yes, sir.
15 MR. BOTELER: Can I ask a question?
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Bob, please.
17 MR. BOTELER: You mentioned the social
18 cost of carbon and about a year ago DOE raised the
19 social cost and then backed off and took it back
20 down. What number are we going to use for this?
21 MR. ADIN: So just to clarify. This is
22 Lucas Adin. The social cost of carbon number that

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© 2014 30 1 is used for analysis actually doesn't come from
2 DOE, it comes from OMB. So to the extent that
3 there is any difference it would be based on
4 guidance from them, not an internal decision.
5 MR. BOTELER: We would have to go back
6 to OMB to see which level?
7 MR. ADIN: Yes I mean it --
8 MR. BOTELER: If I recall they
9 significantly increased it and then they backed
10 off of it and I didn't hear anymore whether they
11 stayed with the lower number of --
12 MR. ADIN: At the moment I couldn't tell
13 you. I'd have to look at the most recent rule.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: There is an updated
15 interagency agreement that you could probably find
16 on the web that you should just be able to get the
17 number.
18 MS. BROOKMAN: So that was Alison. Thank
19 you Alison. Let's keep trying to use our names
20 here.
21 Steve Rosenstock.
22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock EEI.

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© 2014 31 1 OMB made that change, it was a minor change. It
2 went -- let's say it started at 23 then went up to
3 38, now it is like 37 depending on which bandwidth
4 you are in basically. So --
5 MR. BOTELER: Okay.
6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And now all of these
7 looking -- they also put out another rulemaking in
8 terms of what to use in a procedure a lot of
9 feedback. So the number could easily -- could
10 change again. It depends on what OMB does with
11 the feedback they've received on their RFI.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Steve.
13 Final questions on this. I am going to
14 keep us moving along here.
15 Okay. We are going to move on.
16 The next item on the agenda reads
17 clearly define scope for this negotiation, pump
18 types, review aggregated results of new surveys if
19 available.
20 And we should probably start by thanking
21 HI, thanking Al and Mark and others that
22 contributed and engaged the industry at large to

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© 2014 32 1 create this new data set.
2 How should we do this? Do you want to
3 describe this Al and say where we are?
4 MR. HUBER: Sure.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
6 MR. HUBER: We -- this is Al Huber at
7 Patterson. What we did is we went out to the HI
8 membership and tried to get as many companies as
9 we could to participate in a survey. For those
10 that participated I believe you probably, do you
11 have a copy so you can put it up on the screen.
12 There you go. We have -- we ended up with about
13 17 different companies who participated. We
14 actually had more than that. We had a couple
15 additional ones but they submitted 50 cycle
16 instead of 60 and we had to throw them out. We
17 don't know but I would be glad to walk through
18 this with you.
19 The double suction that you see the
20 number of units are 5,311 as reported by the group
21 and not load factored.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: And this is for one

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© 2014 33 1 fiscal year?
2 MR. HUBER: That is one fiscal year,
3 yes. And that is not load factored because the
4 majority and I think the way NEMA -- NEMA-BIS in
5 their letter to the DOE stated a preponderance of
6 the companies that produce that product are among
7 these who have reported. The load factor has been
8 developed over quite some time using historical
9 data from the Hydraulic Institute and our market
10 or M10 reports and using at the time the
11 Department of Commerce data which is no longer
12 available. So those were used to come up with
13 load factors. Also looking at the companies who
14 participate, who don't participate. So to try to
15 get some reasonable idea.
16 MR. FERNSTROM: So Al, this is Gary. I
17 am not sure I understand what you mean by load
18 factor. We utility folks would think about that --
19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes. It is not the same
20 load that you are thinking about.
21 MR. HUBER: It is not the same thing. It
22 is not the same thing. It's an adjustment for

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© 2014 34 1 those that are not reporting.
2 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you very much.
3 MR. HUBER: Okay.
4 MR. HANDZEL: We are trying to get up to
5 the Department of Commerce total number is the way
6 they used to do it.
7 MR. FERNSTROM: Sure.
8 MR. HUBER: Is the way -- and say other
9 data that they have. So --
10 MR HANDZEL: Right. Right. Other
11 sources.
12 MR. HUBER: Other sources to try to get
13 to rationalize the data. So as you observed the
14 double suction is at 5,311, there was no load
15 factor there. Vertical turbines were submitted at
16 5,815 and no load factor there. The multiple
17 stage split - actually split were reported at 247
18 units and 277 were load factor. They are just --
19 there is not much market there anyway.
20 MR. HANDZEL: Can I interrupt you for a
21 second?
22 MR. HUBER: Yes.

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© 2014 35 1 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel for Xylem.
2 Just to add the limitations on this survey were
3 the same as the scope at Hydraulic Institute had
4 been talking about so the 1 to 200 horse power
5 range, you know, focusing on clean water, all the
6 constraints, the temperatures, everything that we
7 defined is what we told our survey participants to
8 report.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Good that is useful. That
10 is a helpful clarification. Yes.
11 MR. HUBER: What we did is we took what
12 has been agreed to in this -- what we've agreed to
13 as the parameters that we were going after. And
14 that is what was reported. So to move on down
15 multi-stage radial split we reported 2,874 and
16 2,874 was the load factor because the same people
17 were making these split case that make these
18 others. So it is pretty evident.
19 The radial split vertical RS-V we
20 reported 44,527 units load factored up to 49,975.
21 Vertical turbine submersibles reported
22 at 78,000 and load factored up to 104,000.

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© 2014 36 1 End suction close coupled reported at
2 94,278 load factored up to 171,456. And the
3 reason there is is that it is the most popular
4 pump around the world and there are a lot of small
5 manufacturers out there who wouldn't be reporting
6 and it is pretty significant.
7 The frame mount was reported at 31,587
8 and the load factored units were 44,042.
9 Now the next one we -- some of us or I
10 think all of our group believe might be an error,
11 the in- lines reported at 24,406 and was load
12 factored to 50,424. With all of us knowing the
13 marketplace we do not believe that there is almost
14 50% more people producing that type of pump. We
15 think that is a little bit high. And we have
16 asked them to go back and take a look at it.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?
18 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.
19 Just to add on to that so what we did is we looked
20 at what manufacturers reported and we know what
21 type of pumps they make and we know we got the
22 majority of the market. So the load factor that

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© 2014 37 1 they are applying just is way overstating it.
2 And one last thing Al and I were
3 discussing about the load factor is that the load
4 factor doesn't have anything built in based on
5 different fluid types.
6 MR. HUBER: No.
7 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So it really --
8 there is some susceptibility that there might be
9 some other fluid type factors built into that and
10 we have no way to break that out.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to confirm this is
12 -- these are -- these numbers are domestic
13 manufacturers for domestic manufacturing or does
14 it include imports as well?
15 MR. HUBER: Well the load factor would
16 include imports. The load factor would include
17 imports into this market; being sold into this
18 market.
19 MR. HANDZEL: But we asked the survey
20 participants to report product being sold into the
21 U.S. market in the year that we surveyed.
22 MR. HUBER: So we can capture it all.

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© 2014 38 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gotcha.
2 MR. HANDZEL: But there could be -- the
3 load factor would include people who were coming
4 in

--
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
6 MR. HANDZEL: -- outside of the group
7 that we are serving.
8 MR. HUBER: So we -- after we've looked
9 at the figures we haven't had it much longer than
10 the rest of you so we did look at it last night
11 and again this morning. We believe that the
12 majority of, the preponderance of these are
13 correct and very close. But we do have some issue
14 with in-line; we think it is a little high. We've
15 asked them to go back and take a look. But I
16 don't think it will bear any significance on this
17 group at this time.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?
19 MR. CASE: Greg Case with HI. We also
20 believe that the end suction close couple is
21 probably high and frame mount is probably high --
22 that load factor looking at the companies that

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© 2014 39 1 they are listing that didn't report many of them
2 would not make water pumps. They would not be
3 part of this. They make pumps that would be
4 chemical duty pumps. And so I think their load
5 factor may be a little bit off there also.
6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes, that is where -- Mark
7 Handzel. The different fluids thing I was
8 mentioning that we factored it in.
9 MR. HUBER: It is difficult -- it is
10 difficult for us to --
11 MR. CASE: I did a quick -- sorry. Greg
12 Case again. I did a quick analysis on this and
13 most of the load factors are above 70% except for
14 those two. And even -- much of them are above 75%
15 so we have 75% plus of the market in our survey on
16 most of these categories and I would say even with
17 the end suction close couple, end suction frame
18 mount and in-line would probably have a bigger
19 share of the market than this would indicate with
20 the load factor.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Gotcha.
22 MR. HUBER: So probably the best we can

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© 2014 40 1 determine somewhere between 80 -- somewhere close
2 to 85% of the market is represented by the 17
3 companies reporting.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
5 MR. HUBER: Somewhere in there.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
7 MR. HUBER: And it does vary although
8 Greg is right you know if they look a little high
9 on those two on the load factors however you know
10 there are a lot of small companies that
11 manufacture those. And so the load factor there
12 would be somewhat higher.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
14 Meg are you able to hear okay?
15 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I am sorry I was
16 just formulating a question over here.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Please go ahead.
18 MS. WALTNER: This is Meg Waltner, NRDC.
19 Just looking, and thanks Alison this is helpful,
20 looking at page 3 with the scope I am wondering
21 how the multi-stage radial split vertical
22 immersible pumps fall under these categories. Were

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© 2014 41 1 there inputs for these guys? They are in yellow
2 on our left here?
3 MR. BROOKMAN: That is the next page,
4 the colorful chart.
5 MS. WALTNER: Yes. I was just trying to
6 match up the data to the chart and make sure I
7 understand everything here.
8 [Discussion.]
9 MR. HUBER: The RS-V category -- This is
10 Al Huber with Patterson. The RS-V category would
11 be under multi stage radial split vertical. This
12 says immersible but it included both.
13 MR. HANDZEL: It was both types the
14 immersible and non-immersible were in that survey.
15 MS. WALTNER: Under radial split multi16 stage vertical?
17 MR. HUBER: Yes.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. I
19 thought you were including -- if the immersibles
20 are really in VS1, are you sure they are included
21 in the --
22 MR. HANDZEL: I am pretty sure there was

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© 2014 42 1 two lines there under that category we asked for
2 the regular and then the immersible one.
3 MR. HUBER: The immersible ones will be
4 what we would call submersible; right?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: No.
6 MR. HANDZEL: They are in that category.
7 MS. HUBER: They are in that category.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: That is something maybe
9 we can double check on as we talk a lot of time
10 about breaking those out separately. So --
11 MR. HANDZEL: Those two lines
12 separately?
13 MR. WILLIAMS: Yes.
14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean you guys
16 specifically wanted the immersible broken out as
17 their own category which is why they are on a
18 separate line here because you all didn't want
19 them combined. And you said you thought you would
20 break it out in the survey data. So I am just
21 saying maybe as we move forward we can --
22 MR. HANDZEL: We can go back and double

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© 2014 43 1 check that.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So thank you Alison
4 and thank you Mark.
5 So and I guess as we were starting this
6 morning I had a brief conversation with a couple
7 of individuals and Al correct me if I am wrong. I
8 believe you said that NEMA, the folks who received
9 this data, they didn't have the opportunity to
10 analyze it as fully as they would have liked. And
11 you are maybe hoping that they could provide some
12 additional information soon?
13 MR. HUBER: This is Al Huber with
14 Patterson. They're -- the part that they have not
15 finished or completed was the efficiency data. And
16 the efficiency data should be out today we hope.
17 That was our hope to get it out today. So
18 hopefully we will have it here tomorrow.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: And can you say a little
20 more with the data that you expect? What would
21 the efficiency data say? I am not following you
22 so far.

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© 2014 44 1 MR. HUBER: Well we had it analyzed for
2 -- we used the form -- we did use the form that
3 they used; right that we talked about in the
4 meeting last time.
5 MR. CASE: We used the MEI form.
6 MR. HUBER: We used the MEI form.
7 MR. CASE: We were trying to get which
8 is -- we used the exact same formula that the EU
9 used in their document to create an MEI level from
10 the collective data just like we had previously.
11 So they were trying to generate the C factor from
12 the MEI equation to determine what the efficiency
13 level cut off would be at an MEI of .1 and .4. So
14 they are processing that data right now.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg --
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Are they also
17 processing
18

-- 19 MR. BROOKMAN: Wait -- whoa, whoa. Greg,
20 thank you. And the -- have you seen the raw data?
21 MR. CASE: No.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Haven't seen it?

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© 2014 45 1 MR. CASE: No.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: So you don't know --
3 MR. HUBER: We can't see it.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Right.
5 Okay. Alison, go ahead.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Are they also processing
7 the shipment weighted average horsepower right now
8 because that is what -- as we discussed?
9 MR. CASE: Well your data requests are -
10 -
11 MS. WILLIAMS: That is not part of a
12 data request; that is just a real quick.
13 MR. CASE: I don't know. I am not sure
14 what -- they have your data request. And that is
15 what they were supposed to be processing.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Remember when we asked
17 for the first step which was just the shipments
18 and weighted average horsepower and all we have is
19 the shipments. So I just want to make sure that -
20 -
21 MR CASE: I'd have to go back and --
22 MS. WILLIAMS: -- weighted average

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© 2014 46 1 horsepower doesn't got lost because it is not
2 really part of the --
3 MR. HANDZEL: Of the MEI calculation.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Are you getting her okay?
6 MR. CAPPELLINO: Weighted based on unit
7

-- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie go ahead.
9 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just wanted to
10 clarify the so the weighted average or weighting
11 it on units -
12 - 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
14 MR. CAPPELLINO: Units shipped and their
15 respective horsepowers in that math?
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I mean that is
17 how I wanted to do the energy use as to that. I
18 have done it with the data that we have under NDA
19 but I do not know if that is fully representative
20 because we don't have all the companies that HI
21 has.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

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© 2014 47 1 MR. CASE: This is Greg Case with HI.
2 What I would ask you to do is send Bob Asdal an
3 email specifically requesting that. And give him
4 the formula. And tell him exactly what you want
5 calculated.
6 MR. HANDZEL: Right. Give him the
7 formula.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison, I presume that
9 is time sensitive. You want that to happen soon;
10 right?
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Ask for it now.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right now. Okay. Thank
13 you.
14 Al Huber?
15 MR. HUBER: We've reviewed the data that
16 you shared with us from the NDA, the horsepower
17 data and it generally looks fairly reasonable to
18 us.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: We shared data?
20 MR. HANDZEL: It is on one of the slides
21

--
22 MR. HUBER: It is on one of your slides.

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© 2014 48 1 MR. HANDZEL: Al and I reviewed it
2 before the meeting started. It is like you guys
3 have a calculation slide.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Is it the previous energy
5 use for upper --
6 MR. HUBER: Yes.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --
8 MR. HANDZEL: Obviously the quantities on
9 there need to be adjusted but it --
10 MS. WILLIAMS: So I actually have
11 updated those with more recent data --
12 MR. HANDZEL: Slide 9 in the back.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: We'll come to that
14 shortly. But thank you Mark for doing that and Al
15 through the analysis. Al you're next.
16 MR. HUBER: Also we reviewed what we
17 asked on the survey and for that category --
18 MR. HANDZEL: So we combined those --
19 Mark Handzel from Xylem. We combined those two
20 groups so I don't think we have a way of breaking
21 that number out separately between those two
22 groups within the RS-V category. So I am sorry if

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© 2014 49 1 we missed that from the last meeting but we did
2 not ask for it --
3 MR. HUBER: We did not break it out.
4 MR. HANDZEL: -- for it to be separated.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. But they can't --
6 if there is a separate -- I mean we can talk about
7 this later but it is identified in a tab so it can
8 be filtered on in the data --
9 MR. HANDZEL: It is a different bottom,
10 Bob. It sits in the water --
11 MR. CASE: I am not sure we collected
12 it.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: We did. I have seen it.
14 MR. CASE: Okay.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I assume it came
16 in the same to HI as it came in to us.
17 MR. HANDZEL: So Alison just to
18 understand those two pumps are virtually
19 identical, okay.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: But --
21 MR. HANDZEL: The only difference is
22 that the body that -- the body -- when one pump

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© 2014 50 1 sits in the water it is immersible it can sit in
2 the water. The other one has two pieces of pipe
3 connected to it. So the pump is identical from a
4 manufacturer's prospective.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: You are saying it is
6 identical to a --
7 MS. WALTNER: VS8, the radial --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh yes, thank you. But
9 then you said last time that it's actually a VS1.
10 MR. HANDZEL: Well this is the one that
11 there was a whole bunch of debate going on because
12 we had a lot of confusion about this. But you
13 know we -- the way that we broke it down it was
14 VS8 was a radially split vertical multi stage with
15 an in-line casing. Okay. And then the second
16 category was the radially split vertical
17 immersible pump which was -- we described as the
18 immersible version of VS8.
19 MR. HUBER: And that is the way we -- Al
20 Huber, Patterson. That is the way we described it
21 to NEMA-BIS and that is the way we described it in
22 the survey.

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© 2014 51 1 MR. HANDZEL: In the survey.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to be clear I am
3 looking at the colorful slide.
4 MR. HUBER: Yeah. The one that says VS1
5 is also VS8.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
7 MR. HUBER: Correct. It is VS8. It is
8 not
9 VS1.
10 MR. HANDZEL: It is VS1 immersible.
11 MR. HUBER: Immersible and VS8.
12 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: And since immersible
14 right in the very middle of the yellow column
15 there -- the yellow stratum that wasn't a part of
16 HI's original proposal?
17 MR. HANDZEL: No.
18 MR. HUBER: No.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. I
21 mean I think it is sort of up to -- like from the
22 data I've seen it can be broken out if it is

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© 2014 52 1 needed because it is submitted as -- listed as a
2 machine tool and not within the RS-V category. So
3 if this group wants it broken out I think NEMA
4 probably should be able to do it. But if they
5 don't want it broken out then it can be redefined.
6 MR. HANDZEL: Well we will ask them if -
7 - you know so there is a column in there that asks
8 about the pump type.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
10 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. So we can ask them
11 if the manufacturers reported different pump types
12 in that column.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: And so I --
14 MR. HANDZEL: If they did --
15 MS. WILLIAMS: -- that does have that
16 broken out.
17 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. All right.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Whether or not everybody
19 does
20

--
21 MR. HANDZEL: So you have seen it in the
22 surveys that manufacturers gave to --

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© 2014 53 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I don't know if
2 everybody did it.
3 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: But certainly.
5 MR. HANDZEL: Well we can ask.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. We will remain
7 hopeful about that.
8 Okay. So additional comments on -- we
9 should probably also at this point just thank the
10 leaders of this data gathering effort for going
11 the extra mile and coming up with this
12 information. That is very, very helpful.
13 And hopefully that efficiency data will
14 be available at the end of the day or for
15 tomorrow, that sort of thing? Hard to say.
16 MR. HUBER: My guess is for tomorrow.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: For tomorrow. Okay.
18 Great. Go ahead.
19 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. One thing I
20 did want to point out that was kind of telling
21 about all of this. If you look at the units, the
22 green portion here of the pumps, they represent

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© 2014 54 1 97% of all the units.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Wow.
3 MR. CASE: So what's up there in green
4 is 97% of all the units shipped.
5 MR. HANDZEL: And that is the HI
6 proposal?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah and the only thing -
8 - 9 MR. CASE: The HI proposed group.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. The only thing I
11 will add on that right now is we agree on the
12 final numbers is the only thing we know is that
13 double suction axial split pump has like 70 to 80
14 average power--
15 MR. CASE: Yes.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: -- compared to like 10.
17 So there is additional energy use relatively in
18 those categories.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Well that is useful. That
20 is a useful comment.
21 Meg Waltner?
22 MS. WALTNER: I am sorry I was just

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© 2014 55 1 asking her to clarify which categories.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.
3 Okay. Final comments or question on
4 this data sheet provided by HI that was sent out
5 in advance. Many thanks for that.
6 Do you have Alison additional data, you
7 said you have done some additional analysis?
8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I did update the --
9 what Mark was talking about was the -- whoops. The
10 previous energy estimates we had, I did update
11 them using --
12 MS. BROOKMAN: This is slide number 9,
13 Alison.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Slide number 9, I don't -
15 - the slide I am talking about is actually not
16 here right now. I am just talking about it. So
17 we updated the shipment weighted average
18 horsepower and we updated -- and we used energy
19 saving estimates based on the data we have under
20 NDA.
21 However because that is not the full set
22 of pumps that HI compiled it might be more prudent

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© 2014 56 1 to wait to look at the shaft horse power and
2 energy savings estimates from that full data set.
3 So that is why it is not in the packet right now.
4 I did it but it is unclear if it is
5 representative. So I mean Mark says horsepower is
6 probably representative but the one I am less sure
7 about is the energy savings because if we are
8 missing some key manufacturers in a certain
9 category we could have the energy savings
10 estimates be off.
11 So I am basically just saying we could
12 look at it but maybe if we are getting HI data
13 today we update it and look at it tomorrow. I
14 don't know what people think about that.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: All Huber and then to
16 Chuck.
17 MR. HUBER: It is not just -- it is not
18 going to be just the horsepower, it is also going
19 to be the number of hours of operation. And as
20 we've looked at it we don't believe that --we
21 don't agree with the hours of operation shown in
22 your chart.

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© 2014 57 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
2 MR. HUBER: Generally.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I have a
4 spreadsheet so we can play with operating hours if
5 you guys have you know suggestions for what to
6 use.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.
8 MR. POWERS: Yes I was going to suggest
9 the same hours but also estimated shipments if you
10 know I am just picking a few as I read IL, you
11 show 85,000 and on the HI one it showed 23,000.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, this is the old one.
13 I have an updated version. I just haven't shared
14 it yet because I didn't know if that data was
15 prudent to be shared. So that is what I want to
16 talk about. If we should look at it or if we
17 should wait until --
18 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me clarify. You
19 are comfortable sharing it because it doesn't
20 violate the terms of NDA or anything like that.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So we can share

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© 2014 58 1 it. It is just kind of whether it would be prudent
2 to wait for the new HI data to show up.
3 Charlie Cappellino?
4 MR. CAPPELLINO: Do you have any sense
5 of what proportion that you have today of the
6 overall data collection effort? Is it roughly --
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes I think -- Lot 11
8 pumps we have a lot of them but I am concerned
9 that we are missing like some of the big
10 manufacturers in the Lot 11 plus pumps which is
11 actually where we need to make the decisions. So
12 that is my main concern because like if we show it
13 -- you know the energy savings estimates we are
14 doing them basically looking at the spread of
15 efficiency and how many shipments are each of
16 them. So if we are missing a manufacturer that
17 has like really high efficiencies or really low
18 efficiencies compared to the rest of them our
19 energy savings estimates could be off.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?
21 MR. HUBER: Which categories
22 specifically and which manufacturers specifically

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© 2014 59 1 do you believe are missing?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Not --
3 MR. HUBER: That are significant enough
4 to affect these numbers?
5 MR. HANDZEL: Because you know she is
6 talking about what they collected.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know if I can
8 talk about that.
9 MR. HUBER: Well we can't make a
10 judgment on behalf of the industry to tell you
11 whether or not you are correct or not.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: I am pretty sure I am
13 correct.
14 MR. HUBER: I am positive you are
15 positive you are correct. But I'm not.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: And in at least two
17 categories I am positive I am correct.
18 MR. HUBER: Which categories are you
19 referring to? Now certainly you can share that.
20 MS. HANDZEL: She needs to protect --
21 MR. HUBER: I know but categories are
22 not proprietary.

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© 2014 60 1 MS. WILLIAMS: So we don't think we have
2 all the vertical turbine manufacturers and the
3 radial split horizontal primarily.
4 MR. HUBER: We know of one that was
5 missing.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: But you're -- you don't
7 know who we have necessarily.
8 MR. HUBER: No. No. But we know of one
9 that we are missing.
10 MR. HANDZEL: And if we are missing
11 them, you are probably missing them, too.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: No but we think we are
13 missing ones that you have, that we don't.
14 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Obviously I don't
16 know about the rest of them. But there is like
17 you know in the list of 17 companies like -- Al is
18 not believing me.
19 MR. HANDZEL: Let me do some math here
20 and think who we missed.
21 MR. HUBER: I don't think we missed
22 anybody.

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© 2014 61 1 MR. HANDZEL: No I don't think we did.
2 But
3

--
4 Alison, can you comment does that
5 company not have an NDA, they are not going to
6 report to you guys; is that the situation?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Like we have -
8 everyone we have NDA with we have reported.
9 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: And Alison those
11 companies for which you do have an NDA you feel
12 like you've got a pretty complete data set from
13 them?
14 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I have to assume
15 so.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
17 So what is the feeling of this group?
18 Alison puts it on top of the table should we look
19 at her new analysis, should we wait for the new HI
20 data to hopefully show up although we are not
21 certain it is going to show up for tomorrow. What
22 should we do?

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© 2014 62 1 MS. WILLIAMS: We would really like to
2 get this voted on at this meeting so that we can
3 do analyses at the next meeting.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Let me ask you
5 this. Do you have also information on circulators?
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. We have
7 information on circulators that we can definitely
8 do circulators today.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al Huber.
10 MR. HUBER: On behalf of the industry we
11 would just as soon you go ahead and share what
12 data you have.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
14 MR. HUBER: Because we don't know when
15 we will have it. We hope to have it tomorrow but
16 -- and if we do we can adjust what you've done.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: And we need both sets;
19 right. We need this set and we need the circulator
20 data because there are going to be comparisons,
21 order of magnitude types of comparisons.
22 MR. HUBER: Sure.

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© 2014 63 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So Alison proceed;
2 present that data.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: So a little caveat that
4 we are still double checking the energy savings
5 numbers.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: It is so small. I wish
7 we could print that off.
8 MR. HUBER: I do too. That would be
9 helpful for everybody.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Is this bigger --
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you send that to
12 somebody and get it to print it off because people
13 want to mark it up. Maybe, you know it's -- maybe
14 we should take a ten minute break and get it
15 printed.
16 MR. STARR: Get some donuts.
17 MR. HUBER: There you go. Excellent
18 idea.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: What did you say?
20 MR. STARR: I said I'll get some donuts.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, yeah.
22 Let's take a break. It is now ten

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© 2014 64 1 o'clock. Let's resume at 10:15. In 15 minutes can
2 you get printed copies of this for us somehow?
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Are you asking me?
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes I am asking you.
5 MR. ADIN: Yes.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Okay. Let's do
7 that.
8 We've already made good progress on the
9 day. It is now ten o'clock we will resume in this
10 room at 10:15. Make sure to wear your badge so no
11 one with a side-arm doesn't stop you in the
12 hallway.
13 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's resume.
15 Thanking the team for finding a way to
16 get this printed effectively, efficiently,
17 judiciously, whatever. Thanks -- many thanks to
18 them. We will indeed be looking at these numbers
19 closely so thanks for that.
20 Alison you want to lead us off and just
21 walk us through.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Sure. Sorry.

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© 2014 65 1 So I have it -- I have it up in
2 spreadsheet form but it should be the same thing.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Should be the same thing?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: I -- it is.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.
7 MR. ADIN: The column headings are a
8 little bit different but it is the same data.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
10 MR. ADIN: They mean the same things.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: It is not the same.
12 MR. ADIN: It is not.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah it is.
14 MR. ADIN: Yeah.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry I have an extra
16 column. Sorry. Okay.
17 We just got this data very recently so
18 please bear with me.
19 So the updated shipments that we got,
20 the industry shipments from NEMA are here in the
21 first column. The Shipment weighted shaft
22 horsepower at BEP is from the data we have under

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© 2014 66 1 NDA. So this is where we are discussing it might
2 be a little bit off of the industry. I should
3 also note that in radial split horizontal I don't
4 have enough data to release. So we don't have the
5 full numbers on that at the moment. And axial
6 split we have few manufacturers. I have that
7 highlighted in orange just as like a warning sort
8 of. And there are a couple of other categories
9 like vertical turbine submersible that we are
10 missing a large portion of the market. So I just
11 want to caveat again that these are estimated
12 numbers. We don't know if they are representative
13 or not. So take it a little bit as sort of a
14 ballpark estimate.
15 I know you -- some of you guys have
16 problems with estimated hours of operation that we
17 have. They are the same as the ones we used last
18 time.
19 So anyway we update -- we've shown the
20 annual energy use numbers before. We updated
21 these with the new shipments and the new shipment
22 weighted horsepower. Everything else is the same.

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© 2014 67 1 And so this is the terawatt -- annual energy use
2 per year of shipments terawatt hour ranges. And
3 end suction close coupled we have around 1.5 to
4 1.8 terawatt hours. And that is the highest one;
5 and it sort of goes down from there.
6 So do you guys have any questions about
7 like the first part of this before we jump over to
8 energy savings?
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?
10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino.
11 Could you just explain again the difference
12 between column J and column K?
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So it is just two
14 hours of operation estimates. So the -- and it,
15 just the column J one, that hours of operation A
16 either my consultant estimated hours of use by
17 application and by sector -- I can't remember by
18 application and we used it to work it into the
19 different pump types depending on their split of
20 application. So that is basically a market
21 research estimate and hours of operation B is the
22 -- is what the EU used in Lot 11 for theirs.

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© 2014 68 1 MR. CAPPILLINO: Thank you.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?
3 MR. HUBER: Alison one thing that we
4 notice on the hours of operation was that the in5 lines were way higher than the end suctions and
6 one is a substitute for the other in the
7 marketplace so why would the hours of operation be
8 different.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: That is a very good
10 question. I mean I am guessing from my data that
11 we have a slightly different application split so
12 that maybe it is a substitute -- is it possibly a
13 substitute in not all areas?
14 MR. HUBER: It is usually a substitute -
15 - it is almost -- it is a customer preference.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. And then in the EU
17 I don't know why they made it higher. So we can -
18 - I am happy to -- so I have this up as a
19 spreadsheet so we can plug different hours in if
20 you guys want to.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: So looking at the hours
22 of operation Al which would you say is more closer

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© 2014 69 1 to what you would expect.
2 MR. HUBER: Probably the end suction
3 close couple is closer. But I want to point out
4 something I think that and we've been discussing
5 this trying to determine the hours of operation
6 generally about 75% to 80% of the pumps sold in
7 most categories are sold as twos where you have an
8 operation, a primary and a backup for the lead and
9 the lag. So they -- both of them come into play
10 in the unit sold but both of them will not be
11 operating; one will not operate while the other is
12 operating. So that is 50% right off the top. And
13 that is about -- we are thinking about 75% of the
14 time in most applications but that being HVAC or
15 municipal or pressure booster. A lot of us
16 manufacture pressure booster systems and it always
17 at least two pumps, one is lead and one is lag. So
18 two pumps are going but only one is operating at a
19 time. So that is something we need to bear in mind
20 as we evaluate the hours of operation.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis Starr do you
22 have a question?

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© 2014 70 1 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify you said that
2 that comprises in your estimate about 75% of
3 applications, that setup
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Of that pump type?
5 MR. HUBER: No of ones we are
6 considering.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So Louis Starr.
8 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. This probably
9 is more just for me. But on the estimated hours
10 of operation I am thinking these are in commercial
11 and industrial applications so I am assuming that
12 when the employees for the most part work 2000
13 hours a year and so the factory is running, if it
14 is running two shifts, then you are running a lot
15 of hours a year. And I am wondering, just I
16 noticed that had EU and U.S. and I just noticed
17 the operation hours are less than what a typical
18 worker works. So that means that the pump is off
19 sometimes and I am kind of wanting to understand
20 why some of these numbers; I would just think what
21 is a typical operation for a commercial or an
22 industrial type use. And I am wondering why these

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© 2014 71 1 hours would be less than that and maybe it is -- I
2 don't know if that -- whoever looked at the EU
3 stuff or the U.S. stuff maybe could answer that;
4 help me understand that.
5 MS. WILLIAM: I don't have an answer
6 right now.
7 MR. HANDZEL: So -- Mark Handzel from
8 Xylem. So Louis it is a great question in this
9 field. We have spent a lot of time trying to talk
10 this through and rationalize it this sort of
11 thing. As you said an industrial system using
12 clean water that could be running 24 hours a day
13 in any one of the processes. And that is the
14 problem is that you know as we talked about before
15 we sell pumps. We don't always know what
16 application it is going into. We know typically
17 how a HVAC system works. We know how an invective
18 process might work. You know so it is a matter of
19 an estimate. So Alison I would kick it back to
20 you if you're talking to our consultants --
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
22 MR. HANDZEL: -- we should ask them how

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© 2014 72 1 we built it up.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
3 MR. HANDZEL: We think -- we obviously
4 did a lot of scratch paperwork and went around our
5 table and you know so that is why we are saying we
6 think like that 2000 for the closed couple frame
7 mounts and the closed couple and the frame mounts
8 is pretty accurate.
9 MR. FERNSTROM: So --
10 MR. HANDZEL: But it just depends on the
11 application or the process.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.
13 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I have
14 a question. I have seen what Al is talking about.
15 You go into a building there are two pumps there,
16 one is standing by, the other is running. Should
17 we have accounted for that in terms of the number
18 of pumps or the number of hours because the pump
19 that is running is running more hours. But the --
20 only one of the two of them are running.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. So we
22 can account -- I mean when we do our full analysis

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© 2014 73 1 we can have a certain percentage of pumps running
2 whatever all the time or not you know and a
3 certain percentage on backup. So we can do that.
4 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. It doesn't --
5 Gary it really doesn't matter which way you take
6 it into consideration. It just doesn't --
7 MR FERNSTROM: As long as you do it.
8 MR. HUBER: As long as you do. That is
9 all I was pointing at; we just need to bear that
10 in mind that whether you said this was running all
11 the time and this other one because they are both
12 shipments.
13 MR. FERNSTROM: So --
14 MR. HUBER: It doesn't really matter
15 which way you do it. You just need to take it
16 into account that is all.
17 MR. FERNSTROM: Okay. So Al this is
18 Gary. In terms of my thinking I'd rather have a
19 correct or reasonable number of hours but fewer
20 pumps than to cover more pumps but fewer hours.
21 It's -- you're right. It is just a question of --
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.

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© 2014 74 1 MR. ADIN: I was just going to point out
2 that we don't actually know for sure whether the
3 hours that we have up here are system hours or per
4 pump hours so that gets to part of the issue that
5 Al raised. And maybe the issue to some extent
6 that Louis raised like why they may seem lower
7 than you might expect because it may not be actual
8 total system operating time. We are going to have
9 to try and figure that out --
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Power.
11 MR. ADIN: -- where these came from.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, I am sorry. Go ahead
13 Chuck.
14 MR. POWERS: Yes. I support all the
15 discussion you all have and because I think it is
16 important to understand it. For example when you
17 get down to the vertical turbines down here at the
18 bottom the 5000 units and all that under 200 horse
19 if there is an agricultural application right. In
20 Nebraska the growing season mainly is late May,
21 early June through August. Now if somebody were
22 to say to me 1600 hours for that unit to run,

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© 2014 75 1 okay; I could be okay with that; right. But I ran
2 a business on agricultural for many years, one of
3 our clinics out there and it was mostly
4 agricultural. And even then the bottom line is
5 the center pivot running 24 hours a day. In most
6 cases it would be. Even people say when it rains
7 they shut them off. No. The rain doesn't give
8 them the water they need. Now it depends on the
9 system, is it drip irrigation where the pivot is
10 still running but you've got this little drips
11 which saves the wind blowing and evaporating or is
12 it ground irrigation; it doesn't matter it is
13 running.
14 Then you go to southern California
15 irrigation. A lot of them are submersibles; a lot
16 of that. They'll have growing seasons, people
17 argue well it is year round. To a certain degree
18 it is almost year round but they're seasonable.
19 They will have a growing season for two months.
20 Then they have got to turn the fields and do
21 whatever and everything shuts down for a month and
22 they go -- so you've got to -- what I am trying to

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© 2014 76 1 say is every one of these will be different.
2 Even these end suctions will be a little
3 more tougher because they go into a lot of
4 applications. You go into Jersey, you go into --
5 I'll pick one that I have been at many times, a
6 toothpaste plant. We are talking about hours
7 running. So lisel (ph) end suction running these
8 toothpaste plants and they'll run you know for
9 that seven hour shift, then it shuts down. So
10 people think some of these applications are
11 running when the plant is operating; absolutely.
12 But when the plant shuts down they don't leave all
13 that machine running because that is going to cost
14 them a lot of money and nobody is monitoring it
15 and there is not as many automated as you may
16 think.
17 Then you go to municipality, we heard
18 about the 100% capacity is well known as. So
19 they'll buy two units, one of them is running and
20 if it craps out they are not going to let the
21 Mayor's wife not be able to take a shower in the
22 morning so they turn on the other one so it can

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© 2014 77 1 run.
2 So you know I think the answer is -- or
3 I think the message is it is very important to
4 look at each one of these and my guess would be
5 that the sum of the nomenclatures is going to have
6 a broader range of what it is going to be.
7 But I think what Mark and Al are also
8 saying is you've got to be careful about the
9 quantity, it is more on the hours that is very
10 important; right. So we don't think they are all
11 running because they are not probably. But more
12 important is to analyze and say okay is you know I
13 am just picking one, is 1913 hours a good average
14 for that.
15 So if the consultants try to break down
16 how many categories and try to look at it if the
17 number comes out to 1920 or 1730 you know we are
18 in the right ballgame and we just have to make
19 sure we are comfortable with it.
20 But when you get down to the RSH as you
21 call it and there is I think our report said you
22 know 2800 units. Now these multi-stage radials

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© 2014 78 1 get into applications that are very high energy or
2 whatever and very specific so their operating
3 hours may be completely different than others;
4 right. So just --
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean we will certainly
7 do further research on the operating hours and all
8 I can say for today is I just made an extra column
9 and if you guys want me to plug some different
10 numbers in right now we can take a look at those
11 results.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al first and then Louis.
13 MR. HUBER: In general if your end
14 suctions, your in-lines and your double suction
15 split case generally are substitutes for each
16 other in a lot of the market; in fact in most of
17 the market. So those operating hours should be
18 pretty much the same --
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --
20 MR. HUBER: -- in all three categories.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: So 2000 --
22 MR. HANDZEL: I would use 2000 for all

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© 2014 79 1 them.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- for all --
3 MR. HUBER: I would use 2000 for all --
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
5 MR. HANDZEL: Obviously that matches
6 pretty closely with what you have for the end
7 suctions already.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So I can just
9 leave those the same. I have updated in-line and
10 double suction to 2000. Do you guys want any of
11 the other ones --
12 MR. HUBER: Yes, I would like --
13 MR. HANDZEL: She said she was going to
14 -- they are close.
15 MR. HUBER: They are close
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis and then Steve?
17 MR. STARR: So one thing I would say is
18 these hours of operation and this is where you go
19 that is you know the 90.1 committee around a bunch
20 of engineers and they've got 16 P&L or prototypes
21 and they've got all these figured out for the
22 commercial buildings and probably residential but

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© 2014 80 1 mainly residential places so they have all these
2 hours figured out.
3 MR. HANDZEL: By geographic zone.
4 MR. STARR: Right.
5 MR. HANDZEL: By climate zone so there
6 is still some factors involved there. It is going
7 to be different in the north than it is in the
8 south.
9 MR. STARR: Right.
10 MR. HANDZEL: And heating and cooling
11 loads. They do have a lot of good models.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: But it is residential you
13 say?
14 MR. HANDZEL: No it is commercial.
15 MR. STARR: No. It is commercial. So
16 they get these hours down and they -- you can go
17 and pull the schedules out of the models. They end
18 up using eQUEST model that has all these numbers.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Good.
20 MR. STARR: So you can pull up -- but
21 one of the things I would say is that really in a
22 commercial building ops -- I am not talking about

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© 2014 81 1 the fact that you may have redundancy really it is
2 the amount of hours that the building is open. So
3 when you went to work this morning they didn't
4 turn it on just as soon as you came in the door.
5 It is five days a week times 12 times 52 weeks a
6 year, it is 3000 hours in a commercial application
7 for that and again in industrial it is at least
8 that; and usually more. So I mean really to me
9 these numbers should be a lot higher to have. But
10 if you take and estimate the fact that there is
11 you know double pumps or you've got multiple
12 double or what do you call it -- redundancy at the
13 pumps which they do in commercial but I am not so
14 much sure in industrial how much they do
15 redundancy of the system --
16 MR. HUBER: Yeah we did.
17 MR. STARR: Okay. So and that may be
18 reflected in what he uses and that is why these
19 numbers may be coming down to this number. But I
20 think it would probably be good to understand what
21 - how these numbers are coming about. I should
22 ask in HI's did you take in the factor in the

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© 2014 82 1 estimation of your hours that you're getting
2 redundancy of pumps or is that not part of your
3 figuring?
4 MR. HUBER: Yes we did.
5 MR. STARR: Okay.
6 MR. HUBER: Yeah we did and we did it in
7 hours of operation rather than units; I mean units
8 were reported.
9 MR. STARR: Okay.
10 MR. HUBER: And so I mean you can do it
11 either way. You've got to know that you've got a
12 pump sitting there and they are not running.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So, Al, just to
14 confirm, thanks for that last comment, the numbers
15 that HI submitted for estimated hours that
16 reflects that duplicate -- that doubling up of
17 pumps and the fact that half of them run half the
18 time or something?
19 MR. HANDZEL: So just to clarify, Doug,
20 this is Mark. We didn't estimate -- we haven't
21 submitted this.
22 MR. HUBER: We haven't submitted --

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© 2014 83 1 MR. HANDZEL: We were preparing for the
2 discussion today.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.
4 MR. HANDZEL: So that was what we were
5 preparing for knowing that we were going to need
6 to have this discussion.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Follow along with
8 Charlie.
9 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino,
10 ITT. One of the things I would suggest is to
11 simply add a column after estimated shipments to
12 estimated units operating because it is going to
13 get pretty confusing I think if we --
14 MR. HANDZEL: Right.
15 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- mix the two
16 together. So that way you can separate the
17 discussion, here is the units shipped, here is the
18 units that are operating. Then you can say of the
19 operating units here is what the typical hours are
20 so it is clear. Otherwise it is going to get
21 muddy.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.

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© 2014 84 1 MR. STARR: There is another aspect we
2 probably hadn't thought about, that is why we
3 haven't done it yet but it would go to the
4 analysis, the life cycle cost analysis. If you
5 think about it reflected in all the pumps then all
6 of a sudden you are running the pumps half the
7 time so now you have just doubled the lifetime of
8 your pumps and so the -- what a typical pump in a
9 box let's say take a circulator, a pump that you
10 have a seven year life on but if you are now
11 running it half of the time is your life 14 years
12 or is it seven. So I mean that is what -- maybe
13 for what we are doing right now it is okay. But
14 when you start to figure out life cycle cost
15 analysis it starts to be very important whether
16 you just divide the hours or the units or --
17 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. We are
18 currently in the LCC accounting for operating
19 hours, we have mechanical lifetime in hours and
20 operating hours so the lifetime is dependent on
21 operating hours.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: That's good. Chuck?

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© 2014 85 1 MR. POWERS: If you look at Hydraulic
2 Institute's write up of life cycle, you look at
3 the ones done by power companies actually those
4 units that only run half the time are in worse
5 shape. When they are sitting in fluid and it is
6 cast iron, even if it is stainless there is
7 something in the cathodic protection side of it,
8 no matter what fluid you are dealing with, okay,
9 something is going to start to give. Go park your
10 car, this is a dumb example; go park your car
11 outside for a year. And then go drive one every
12 day. Tell me which one is going to run at the end
13 of the year; right. That is a dumb example but
14 pumps when it varies -- and now for what is it
15 worth Charlie and I and I think some of the other
16 guys on verticals, deal with a lot of verticals,
17 it is even worse on verticals because half the
18 pumps is in the fluid and half isn't and if you've
19 got what's called splash zones with a salt
20 water/fresh water it just -- and I think Doug down
21 there deals a lot of operating units. I mean it -
22 - in my opinion if you don't run a pump everyday

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© 2014 86 1 it is going to be worse off than the one that is
2 running.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have that data
4 somewhere?
5 MR. POWERS: There is a lot of data. If
6 you look at -- I brought it with me, the one book
7 that was done by HI on life cycle.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
9 MR. POWERS: They actually have some
10 pretty neat stuff in there on how they look at
11 things. There are a lot of people written, the
12 power companies have done studies for years; you
13 know that becomes a big factor. Now part of it in
14 the early days was they would try to upgrade
15 materials. Hey let's go to duplexes and all this
16 stuff. It didn't help. It really didn't help
17 because everything will build up a protection or
18 you know and it just starts to come apart or you
19 will have corrosion, there is a long list of
20 things.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin?
22 MR. ADIN: So we can try and incorporate

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© 2014 87 1 those kinds of factors into our lifetime --
2 MR. POWERS: Yeah. All I'm saying Lucas
3 is yeah I agree if it is not running as much, yes,
4 there is less wear and tear, no argument there,
5 right.
6 MR. ADIN: Right.
7 MR. POWERS: But it isn't a pure -- it
8 is only running half the time so the life cycle is
9 twice. It isn't as pure as that in my opinion --
10 MR. ADIN: Understood.
11 MR. POWERS: -- based on the application
12 it can actually be worse.
13 MR. ADIN: Gotcha.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?
15 MR. STARR: Yes. I was just going to say
16 yes that makes sense. I think we are probably
17 looking at both of those life cycles but just more
18 my point was is however it figures into the model
19 because it will make a difference like these hours
20 of operation really and it sounds like we are
21 going to do that differently but I think -- I
22 don't know how the affects would be but it would

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© 2014 88 1 definitely -- I think it would maybe change your
2 analysis.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?
4 MR. ADIN: Yeah. That -- and these
5 points are all well taken. And I think the take
6 away for us you know we are not going to be able
7 to refine this today necessarily but there are a
8 lot of other potential data sources that we could
9 look at that could serve as a proxy for helping us
10 evaluate how reasonable these numbers are; and
11 maybe help us get to a more -- you know a better
12 estimate. I mean there is a lot industry data out
13 there, whether it is from EIA data or other survey
14 data that will give us an idea within the
15 industries that use these pumps to try to figure
16 it out. So something we are going to work on.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?
18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
19 I'm going to ask a couple of questions about they
20 are now columns R & S under the energy savings
21 estimates. On the slide you handed out you said
22 that

--

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© 2014 89 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry can we make sure we
2 are -- I want to finish with the energy use before
3 we go to energy savings --
4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Oh, okay.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: -- to keep it cleaner.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Then do that Alison. How
7 -- ask a question.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: So I mean as Lucas said
9 we will go back and work on the operating hours
10 some more for the real analysis.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, you didn't finish
12 with that. Okay.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: But is -- like are we --
14 I made those two changes to 2000 like are we okay
15 for today to look at these energy use estimates
16 for everything else? Like are you guys --
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Al?
18 MR. ADIN: We didn't include non19 electric pumps or whatever.
20 MR. HUBER: The only thing that we are
21 concerned about right now is the vertical
22 turbines.

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© 2014 90 1 MR. HANDZEL: The last one.
2 MR. HUBER: Because they are
3 predominately agricultural?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
5 MR. HUBER: And I know that Arnie over
6 here has come from manufacturing and he was giving
7 us some examples that he gave --
8 MR. SDANO: Yes, a pump that was
9 returned 15 years in service and they had only
10 5000 hours on it. And that is sort of typical of
11 what we see for ag.
12 MR. HUBER: That is pretty typical. I
13 have known a farm in Arkansas where we grow rice
14 and that pump doesn't run 400 hours a year.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: 15 years in service,
16 Arnie and --
17 MR. SDANO: 5000 hours.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: 5000 hours.
19 MR. HUBER: We think that probably --
20 because it is predominately ag we think that that
21 probably is a little high but --
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so I mean the energy

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© 2014 91 1 use is only .02 terawatt hours at the moment so we
2 can play with it but it is still --
3 MR. HANDZEL: It's --
4 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't know.
5 MR. HUBER: It's not worth talking
6 about.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: I think the thrust of
8 what Alison's question is since we started doing
9 this are there other corrections that we would
10 make to estimated hours or annual energy use? Just
11 suggest now for the purpose of the ongoing
12 analysis.
13 MR. HANDZEL: You have our --
14 MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to look to
15 manufacturers first, Steve?
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing additional you
17 wish to add at this point?
18 MR. HANDZEL: You have our comments.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. We have
20 Steve. Meg Waltner, go ahead.
21 MS. WALTNER: Yes sorry I did have one
22 question on the average percent load of 74%

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© 2014 92 1 Alison; is that just an estimate?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so yeah we have a
3 report on motor load that the average is 68% but
4 obviously motor load depends on how the motor is
5 sized with the pump so we don't really know. So
6 we basically just made an estimate, this is based
7 on -- okay I see it, okay, that was not helpful. I
8 think it -- this is the affinity law, so I think
9 the 50% flow is 74% power load, power draw. It is
10 a total SWAG. But we can also change this
11 estimate.
12 MS. WALTNER: No I don't have a
13 suggestion. I just wanted to understand.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah and this is
15 something that when we do the full energy analysis
16 obviously we will be matching pumps with drivers
17 and we will have an actual real number.
18 MS. WALTNER: Thank you.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?
20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again just about the
21 hours of use did you want to add in a minimum
22 hours for the VT of like 400?

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© 2014 93 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Louder, Steve.
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm sorry. Following
3 up did you want to use a, you know you can use for
4 the VTs based on that comment a minimum hours of
5 400 then the max would be 1700.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Al state for the
7 record, Al Huber?
8 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. We were thinking
9 more of the minimum average hours was closer to
10 about 750.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: That is useful. Tom
12 Eckman?
13 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah not in the northwest.
14 MR. HUBER: Well it depends on where you
15 are.
16 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah, I think there is like
17 California, northwest and were are at 1800, 2000
18 hours typically. So they are trying to get that
19 last ounce of --
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison would you have
21 capacity by pump, by segment, by region?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah I mean all these LCC

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© 2014 94 1 can be done regionally if there is data available
2 for that.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
4 MR. ECKMAN: I am assuming that in the
5 LCC you are going to get distributions of hours of
6 operations anyway?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah I mean I should be
8 clear about this, but LCC is way more complicated
9 than this. This is just to give like a back of the
10 envelope calculation so we can talk about whether
11 we are going to cover things or not.
12 MR. HUBER: Yeah.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: And as Tom said yes there
14 will be distributions for everything. It will be
15 based on region if appropriate. It will be based
16 on applications. So you know we can get --
17 hopefully next meeting if we have scope and metric
18 decided we can go through LCC and we can talk
19 about all these things in more detail.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.
21 MR. CASE: Greg Case with Hydraulic
22 Institute. Our question I guess would be then

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© 2014 95 1 none of our shipment data is regionalized so how
2 would you know that 1700 pumps went to this area
3 and 300 pumps went to that area?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean we will have to
5 look at the data. I am not sure off hand but you
6 know like we have FRIS data for agriculture which
7 has a number of pumps in different regions. So
8 like you could distribute proportions that way;
9 things like that. I can't recall what we are
10 doing right now. But it just depends on what
11 application data there is in addition to the
12 shipments data.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber? Then Gary.
14 MR. HUBER: The horsepower you show on
15 vertical turbines at four, we think that is not
16 correct.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
18 MR. HUBER: We think it is closer to 25.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah so this is one of
20 the ones that we were worried we didn't have a
21 representative. So we can --
22 MR. HUBER: We think it is closer to 25

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© 2014 96 1 Alison.
2 MR. HANDZEL: Per pivot.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: We can check that out.
4 MR. HANDZEL: This is Mark. We reported
5 our data from motor data and I know I looked at it
6 last night and basically confirmed that number to
7 Al. So -
8 - 9 MR. HUBER: Yeah.
10 MR. HANDZEL: -- I know it is part of
11 your -- 12 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: You'd never get
13 any water out the other end.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: This is good. Gary
15 Fernstrom?
16 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I
17 would just like to support Tom Eckman's
18 observation that the pump guys in the west are
19 really happy particularly California because it
20 hasn't rained.
21 [Laughter]
22 MR. HANDZEL: What can we do about that

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© 2014 97 1 Gary?
2 MR. HUBER: Well actually there is no
3 water to pump.
4 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah.
5 MR. HUBER: Not real happy.
6 MR. FERNSTROM: Well they can't drill
7 the wells fast enough and put --
8 MR. HANDZEL: And deep enough.
9 MR. FERNSTROM: -- so it varies
10 throughout the country for sure.
11 MR. HANDZEL: It does.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.
13 Are we ready to move on to the next
14 slide? Alison do you have --
15 MS. WILLIAMS: So --
16 MR. BROOKMAN: -- any questions?
17 MS. WILLIAMS: So I mean great -- so
18 last time we showed the annual energy use
19 estimates the only -- and that is what is here.
20 What we added this time was some energy savings
21 estimates to give some ides of the range on each
22 of these. And again this might change when we get

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© 2014 98 1 the full data set. We looked at four different
2 estimates of saving energy; two based on MEI and
3 two based on PER. And so one scenario is that you
4 take -- what we are showing right here is based on
5 MEI 40. So what we did was take all the pumps
6 like that would fail MEI 40 and roll them up to
7 the minimum standard.
8 And we also did another one where they
9 rolled up above the minimum standard. So like if
10 you are hydraulically redesigning and you are
11 shooting for probably above the standard
12 somewhere. So just to sort of bracket some
13 possibilities.
14 So I am not -- I mean we could go into
15 more detail on that but I just want to sort of
16 give an idea of how we did it. So it is basically
17 looking at -- you know we looked at the efficiency
18 increases by looking at those two scenarios and
19 translated that into energy savings. And so I
20 just took the min and max of each of those four
21 scenarios for each of these. And you can see they
22 are pretty low ranging from across all product

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© 2014 99 1 types from .1% to 6.5% energy savings from going
2 to an MEI 40. And so the resulting -- I have the
3 resulting energy savings in terawatt hours in the
4 power point and here it also translated it into
5 quads in case -- over 30 years in case anyone is
6 interested in looking at that.
7 So basically these are the numbers that
8 we got. They're fairly low. I have totals down
9 here on the spreadsheet that I don't have on the
10 slide also just you know to know that we are
11 looking at a whole package and it doesn't
12 necessarily matter to us how much each equipment
13 class saves because it is not -- the incremental
14 burden of covering each equipment class
15 analytically is very small for these pump types so
16 because we can do them all essentially the same
17 way. So just they are --
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark Handzel?
19 MR. HANDZEL: Yes just to clarify, Mark
20 Handzel from Xylem. So based on this you really
21 are just factoring -- what is shown here is just
22 the savings based on a pump efficiency

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© 2014 100 1 improvement? There is no factor built into here
2 for using a variable speed drive?
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. Yeah, so even
4 for the PER we just --
5 MR. HANDZEL: The power point --
6 MS. WILLIAMS: -- started using the
7 default.
8 MR. HANDZEL: So this is the pump
9 manufacturer's efficiency improvement based --
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
11 MR. HANDZEL: -- on setting a baseline
12 that we cut off at the least efficient pump.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. Yes.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: For the pump only.
15 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, essentially.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?
18 MR. CAPPELLINO: And Alison could you
19 explain again the difference between the min
20 column and the max column.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So I really have -
22 - we will just show them here -- I really have

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© 2014 101 1 four different scenarios. We looked at both MEI
2 and PER which as Mark said the PER we are
3 basically just translating the MEI into the PERs
4 so it is using default everything motor.
5 And then the other two scenarios are
6 shift versus rollups. The rollup is where we take
7 40% of pumps that were cut off and assigned them
8 the minimum efficiency so that is a lower energy
9 savings. And the shift scenario is where you
10 assume that they rollup higher than the minimum
11 level because pump manufacturers are potentially
12 over -- you know they are not going to design to
13 just barely meet the minimum likely because you
14 might miss; right.
15 MR. CASE: So what level was that?
16 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think she is
17 assuming that they are rolling up to the average
18 of the pumps that didn't fail.
19 MR. CAPPELLINO: Is there -- this is
20 Charlie Cappellino. Is there an equivalent MEI
21 that would be associated with that?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so it is not -- it

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© 2014 102 1 is MEI 40 and you are just taking those 40% of
2 pumps and assigning them either the minimum
3 efficiency or an average efficiency of the non4 failing pumps. It is still MEI 40 it is just a
5 scenario of how we would handle that. And so this
6 is something that when we do the full analysis we
7 can go into a lot of discussion about how we make
8 those decisions about what is actually going to
9 happen in the market. And I just sort of wanted
10 to bracket the potential savings.
11 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve I am going to going
13 to go to the manufacturing side first. It will be
14 much clearer -- data as possible, Chuck.
15 MR. POWERS: Yes. So I think Alison
16 what you guys are doing is excellent. But I think
17 what is important is when we force these
18 manufacturers to make changes in hydraulics the
19 point you are putting at is just the BEP; correct?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: No it is so that MEI is
21 taking

--
22 MR. POWERS: It is going to be that

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© 2014 103 1 range?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: -- into the three points
3 and PER is taking into account --
4 MR. POWERS: Okay. So what some
5 manufacturers are going to do is in designing
6 hydraulics you can make what we call peaking
7 pumps.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
9 MR. POWERS: You can focus just on the
10 BEP and do a great job improve it all. When you
11 go across the curve it becomes more difficult to
12 get them all to come up. And you will have
13 certain manufacturers just give up and walk away
14 from it.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah and so we --
16 MR. POWERS: We have to be very careful
17 that if we're asking for an err of better
18 efficiency of .2% or something, I am just saying,
19 that is what the European guys found and that is
20 why they eliminated some of these other, said look
21 no argument they just said not only are these
22 numbers very low, it doesn't impact us much, let's

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© 2014 104 1 focus on the ones we can address. But when you
2 have the types of products, right, like you talked
3 the other day that the higher the horsepower
4 Charlie sees, I see and some of the other guys
5 will specialize a product around a particular
6 design when you get in the big 5000 horsepower
7 something like that because you can afford to do
8 it. But when you are making a line of product and
9 I don't but let's say the circulators, right, and
10 you've got thousands of them going out the door.
11 You know it is very difficult to say okay whatever
12 change we make what about the repeatability and
13 sustainability of it. Do you know what I mean?
14 Because they are standard run of the mill; you've
15 got a -- versus an engineer you can tweak, you can
16 touch. So we also have to be careful that we don't
17 get to the point where we think the pump is the
18 Holy Grail and it is going to answer everybody's
19 question because you're only going to get so much
20 out of it. And we can do things. But we've got
21 to be very careful that we don't incriminate
22 ourselves.

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© 2014 105 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. And obviously as
2 you can see to me these percentages are fairly low
3 so I think it goes to your point that there is
4 only so much you can get out of it. I will add
5 that in this scenario I didn't include dropping
6 pumps. We will certainly include that in our full
7 scenario because we know that some manufacturers
8 will drop some of their models.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?
10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
11 In those columns and again I appreciate this if in
12 typical rule makings you have candidate standard
13 levels and trial levels and trial standard levels.
14 So you have different levels of efficiency that
15 you consider. Typical rulemaking has five
16 standards let's just say you know. Level 1 being
17 just barely above the base line; level 5 being max
18 tech. For these columns what level would these
19 represent?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is --
21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again I know it is just
22 bare pump but I am just saying in terms of if we

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© 2014 106 1 were doing a full blown analysis and it be a trial
2 standard level what would this kind of be
3 analogous to?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is MEI 40 which
5 is cutting off 40% of the market. I mean
6 presumably we would also look at MEI 10, maybe
7 something between 10 and 40 and then I am sure we
8 would look at a couple above 40. Max tech would
9 be we are getting max or lately we are --
10 MR. BROOKMAN: This would be mid-range.
11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This would be about
12 Level 3; right?
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Essentially 2 or 3,
14 something like that.
15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again nothing --
16 nothing in writing I am just -- Steve Rosenstock
17 just trying to get a ballpark for everybody.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah we figured and I
19 actually have numbers on other efficiency levels
20 but I didn't want to get super overwhelmed in
21 looking at that right now. So --
22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

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© 2014 107 1 I appreciate that because I think it kind of gives
2 us an idea of what a possible range might be in
3 terms of again just for this segment, again just
4 for the bare pump what the energy savings are
5 going to be in this category especially -- when I
6 did an average of all that columns R and S, I just
7 did just a quick average for the minimum, it is
8 1.4%, for the maximum it is 3.5%. So and that is
9 a level 3. So again just to give you an idea of
10 what might be out there in terms of level 1, level
11 2, level 4 possibly.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve, thank you.
13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes Meg.
15 MS. WALTNER: I just have a quick
16 clarification. If these percentages are on a
17 market average basis; right? They are not per
18 pump savings?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. It is market
20 average.
21 MS. WALTNER: So it. Okay.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.

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© 2014 108 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Doug Potts.
2 MR. POTTS: Yeah. Doug Potts. I have
3 another question about your efficiency tables. Are
4 these all based on -- I am assuming it is all
5 based on brand new product. I am wondering do you
6 factor in decline in efficiency or latent decline
7 just due to normal wear and tear?
8 MS. WILIAMS: So we in the LCC we have
9 it set up to include an efficiency degradation
10 factor that is not included in these estimates.
11 And these terawatt hour savings are just for a
12 single year. So this would be for full efficiency
13 improvement. So and even when I did the quads I
14 didn't account for anything. So something we
15 should certainly discuss moving down the line. But
16 it is not accounted for today.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: You all set?
18 MR. POTTS: I mean it is good to know. I
19 think that is something that should be factored in
20 just in our experience we see on average a decline
21 in efficiency about 1% per year; just normal wear
22 and tear. So you've got a great pump when it is

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© 2014 109 1 brand new but that efficiency improvement only
2 lasts for a year so then you have to factor that
3 in.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: And so I in that sense
6 these are not conservative scenarios, right. So
7 you can look at these --
8 MR BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.
9 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, NEEA. You know
10 another thing kind of tying in with that same
11 thing efficiency most of the time their impellers
12 get on the smaller ones get trimmed when they go
13 out to the field. So really what you think their
14 efficiency is and actual energy use is different
15 and so I don't know if your model can take that in
16 account but --
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So you bring up a
18 good point. We're currently ignoring trimming
19 impellers and that is sort of a conversation that
20 we have had with HI moving forward. I mean in the
21 past. Okay.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: So --

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© 2014 110 1 MS. WILLIAMS: I am just going to wait
2 until you all are done talking.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to comment on
4 this? Al Huber?
5 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. It
6 would exponentially complicate this discussion you
7 can take a typical small pump, you are talking
8 about you may drift two inches or an inch and a
9 half but you might trim it in increments of a
10 sixth to an eighth of an inch in order to satisfy
11 a customer's layout.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: What, what --
13 MR. HUBER: So I mean you are talking
14 about -- you are talking about a huge range here.
15 And I know the Europeans decided right away that
16 it was -- it made it so complex that they picked
17 BEP so they could get one from that diameter so
18 they could get one diameter. If you improve the
19 efficiency at the BEP after what I -- you will
20 improve the efficiency all the way down the -- all
21 the way down the diameter.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison, Dan

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© 2014 111 1 just reminded me, and as Al is saying the delta
2 efficiency improvement is going to be the same no
3 matter whether
4

--
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino to
6 follow on.
7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Louis why don't you go
8 ahead. You had your hand up.
9 MR. STARR: One of the things I was
10 going to say it is more -- I am thinking of the
11 life cycle cost analysis how the cost of energy so
12 if you are running something pretty efficient but
13 then it turns out you are actually running it less
14 efficient that means there is more energy out
15 there to be saved. So it is not a question of the
16 delta in efficiency as it is as how much energy
17 there is to be -- how much -- instead of using
18 let's say 40 kilowatt hours, you are using 1600
19 kilowatt hours. So there is more energy out there
20 as an opportunity that is cost associated with it.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. So typical --
22 MR. STARR: So it weights your model.

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© 2014 112 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Agreed but trimmed
2 impellers will typically be using less energy even
3 though they are less efficient because they are
4 running lower.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
6 MR. HUBER: So that -- that's-- Al
7 Huber. That is one thing you have to consider and
8 we really are talking about energy usage and not
9 efficiency. We are talking about something about
10 efficiency. That is not really what we are after.
11 We are after eliminating horsepower to the E. So
12 if we trim it and we get close to where you really
13 need it then you are much better off even if the
14 efficiency drops a point or two.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie do you want in
16 here?
17 MR. CAPPELINO: I just wanted to agree
18 with Al that from a regulation standpoint trying
19 to regulate around different trims or efficiencies
20 at different trims gets super complicated and we
21 should push that aside. But I would say that from
22 an energy usage standpoint that you could look at

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© 2014 113 1 it and say on a broad basis impellers are trimmed
2 by a certain percentage on average and build that
3 into your energy use calculation. But you have
4 got to look at both pieces of it; the efficiency
5 difference but also the power goes down by the
6 cube of the impeller diameter so the energy usage
7 goes down quite a bit as well. You can look at
8 them separately. I wouldn't try to mix them
9 together, that would get way --
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Is there a follow on,
11 Louis?
12 MR. STARR: The other thought about it
13 is there is an understanding of how much -- if you
14 know the distribution of your trim, impeller
15 trims, what that could also help out and a better
16 way to think about it rather than trimming the
17 impeller if you have the ability to have a VFD to
18 the right side of the pump it is probably a better
19 option. So what that could be reflected in is
20 actually in your metric that showing that having a
21 VFD is better than trimming the impeller so it can
22 actually encourage the sales of VFDs instead of

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© 2014 114 1 trim. So it is not actually affecting the
2 efficiency of the pump but encouraging the market
3 towards

--
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
5 MR. HUBER: Yes that is true Louis as
6 long as -- if you can trim it to the exact point
7 and it always stays there, it doesn't vary, the
8 load doesn't vary, then your scenario is not true.
9 MR. STARR: Yeah.
10 MR. HUBER: So yeah because you would
11 actually lose energy by having a VFD on because it
12 is burning some energy itself. So yeah I don't
13 know this trimming the impeller is an issue.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark?
15 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.
16 Just in support every -- it is all coming back,
17 Louis, because of the application, it depends how
18 the consulting engineer told us to build the pump,
19 some of them are very specific and they -- we do
20 see consulting engineers with a preference,
21 exactly what you just described give me a full
22 diameter pump and I'll vary the speed. So we are

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© 2014 115 1 seeing those type of things. But it depends on
2 all these various input factors in terms of how we
3 are told to build it.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom.
5 MR. HANDZEL: Predominately though we
6 are still told trim the impeller to match the duty
7 point.
8 MR. HUBER: Yeah.
9 MR. HANDZEL: And then they still put a
10 drive on it and slow it down to take out all of
11 the over safety factors that are in the system.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: I saw both Tom and Lucas
13 at the same time. Tom.
14 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power
15 Council. I think you can correct me if I am wrong
16 but I think so long as both the base case analysis
17 and the improved case analysis reflect whatever
18 parameters we choose the delta will always be
19 there and the delta will actually be bigger
20 because it affects the base case worse, has more
21 of an impact on the base case than it does the
22 efficient case. So you know you have got to just

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© 2014 116 1 keep -- make sure that the assumptions affect both
2 the baseline usage and the efficient cases.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me note that several
4 members are nodding their heads in agreement to
5 Tom's statement.
6 Lucas, go ahead.
7 MR. ADIN: Yeah well Tom just make the
8 point I think I was going to that the delta --
9 ultimately when it comes to establishing the basis
10 for a particular standard, the delta is what we
11 care about.
12 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.
13 MR. ADIN: Louis raises a very good
14 point that it is worth thinking about like when it
15 comes to actually estimating realistic life cycle
16 cost how much does the trimmed impeller matter but
17 given these enormous complexities do we care what
18 that is in our spread. And I'll also remind
19 everyone at least for the purposes of regulatory
20 coverage we did agree already that full impeller
21 is the basis for the standard.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: I want us to move on. And

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© 2014 117 1 the reason is I want to make sure we discuss all
2 these slides fully because when we return from
3 lunch I want to give each caucus a chance to
4 caucus over lunch should they need to caucus
5 because when we return from lunch I think we may
6 be like to see if we are prime -- pardon my pun,
7 to have a vote on circulators. That would be my
8 hope and expectation. So let's move on to the
9 next slide.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I want to finish -
11 - I think -- so I mean I think what we were hoping
12 with this is you have energy estimates, we have a
13 range of energy savings estimates. Do you guys
14 want to have a conversation now about coverage or
15 setting standards for some of these items because
16 this was what we were waiting for to have this
17 discussion.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: The thrust of the
19 discussion at the last meeting was that the energy
20 efficiency advocacy caucus wanted to be able to
21 compare so they wanted to see the most current
22 data on circulators before they are willing to --

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© 2014 118 1 MS. WILLIAMS: They wanted to see this
2 before circulators; right. So I mean we can look
3 at circulators too, whatever. It doesn't --
4 MR. BROOKMAN: I want all this
5 publication material out now. That is what I
6 want.
7 MR. HANDZEL: It is out. I think it is
8 out.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison you --
10 MR. ADIN: Correct me if you are wrong
11 but - - if I am wrong --
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas Adin.
13 [Group talking and laughing]
14 MR. ADIN: I will correct myself if I am
15 wrong. What you are saying is you want to get -
16 not address votes on individual parts as we go but
17 get all the data out?
18 MR. BROOKMAN: I just --
19 MR. ADIN: So we can talk about and then
20 we'll

--
21 MR. BROOKMAN: I read that transcript at
22 least twice.

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© 2014 119 1 MR. ADIN: Yeah.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: And I heard from the
3 energy efficiency advocate that they are doing
4 comparisons; right.
5 MR. ADIN: Right.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: And so they wanted to see
7 because I -- at the end of the last meeting I was
8 pushing to consider by even a straw poll just to
9 get a temperature read on circulators. And
10 several individuals spoke and said no we need to
11 defer. Go ahead.
12 MR. ADIN: Right. I think Alison --
13 well -- Alison will correct me --
14 MS. WILLIAMS: I want to make sure that
15 no one -- and if we are going to do any more
16 arguing about these numbers, let's do it now;
17 right. And not come back and argue about them
18 later. So --
19 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought we were pretty
20 much done arguing about the numbers.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
22 MR. HANDZEL: We said you have our

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© 2014 120 1 input. This is what our --
2 MS. WILLIAMS: So --
3 MR. HANDZEL: I mean we still say there
4 are other things to consider. But you have our
5 input.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Sure. Okay. So these
7 are the numbers that you are going to think about
8 when you all are determining whether to cover
9 these yellow pumps or not, right? Okay.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
11 MR. HUBER: Al Huber. Alison you have
12 altered this. I mean you have adjusted from our
13 comments this screen; right.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.
15 MR. HUBER: So we either need to get a
16 new copy of it which I hate to ask you to do or we
17 need to run it down the chain so we are reminded
18 when they caucus knows what they are looking at.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: So I only did a couple.
20 So do you all want to make some cross-outs on your
21 sheets right now?
22 MR. HUBER: That is fine.

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© 2014 121 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
2 MR. HUBER: If you want to go through
3 the changes then we will cross them out.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour has got a
5 question.
6 MR. BARBOUR: I have got a question. Bob
7 Barbour from TACO. When you made those changes
8 for example to the hours --
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
10 MR. BARBOUR: -- did that reflect all
11 the way across?
12 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
13 MR. HUBER: That is why I want to --
14 MR. BARBOUR: I didn't see it changing
15 Al.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Well some of them were
17 not visible changes. So --
18 MR. HUBER: They need --
19 MS. WILLIAMS: No I mean because the --
20 of the rounding. It just didn't make that big a
21 difference.
22 [Discussions] Okay. So can I go --

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© 2014 122 1 MS. BROOKMAN: Yes. Let's all focus
2 here. Hang on Steve. Alison is going to go
3 through cell by cell; right?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes I am.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?
6 MR. STARR: Well -- so Louis Starr,
7 NEEA. You know if we are really -- what we're --
8 the end result of this sheet is really the last
9 two columns, V and W there. And so -- or well T
10 and W, whatever. So you have got the min and max
11 so you know I guess in my mind if you really want
12 to -- if I was looking at the max it would be
13 higher hours of operations as part of that. I
14 mean I know you've got two columns, one of USA and
15 EU or something.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
17 MR. STARR: And so one would have a
18 higher number of hours and one would have a lower
19 number of hours and that would create the bands of
20 mins and maxs rather than taking a conservative
21 estimate of the hours and then saying again that
22 is the min and the max.

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© 2014 123 1 MS. WILLIAMS: So do you want to change
2 some of the EU estimates?
3 MR. STARR: How did this calculate or
4 what numbers did it feed into the max column?
5 MS. WILLIAMS: I -- so it is most of the
6 EU numbers are higher except for RSV and so that
7 one I switched. So the min is the EU and the max
8 is ours, but other ones typically --
9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: You have that for VT-S;
10 right?
11 MR. STARR: Well, what I was saying is
12 take the --
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
14 MR. STARR: -- column and double it.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: The EU column?
16 MR. STARR: And then the other one will
17 be the you know whatever the pump minimum numbers
18 are.
19 MR. WILLIAMS: Do you think doubling it
20 is a
21

--
22 MR. HUBER: Why do you want to double

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© 2014 124 1 it?
2 MR. STARR: Well because --
3 MR. HUBER: I mean what justification do
4 you have Louis?
5 MR. STARR: The operational hours of a
6 partial office building and an industrial space it
7 is higher number of --the pumps are running when
8 it is there. Now if you cut the pumps, the number
9 of pumps in half and you provide two then that
10 provides half the number of hours; right. So
11 one's -- I mean -- I mean I certainly if it is
12 supposed to be a min and max, right, you've got to
13 -- what is the highest and what is the lowest --
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Well I think it is
15 supposed to be min and max within what we feel is
16 a reasonable
17

-- 18 MR. STARR: Reasonable.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- amount right?
20 MR. STARR: Okay.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: So --
22 MR. STARR: Okay. Well then that is

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© 2014 125 1 probably we need to talk about that. So we are
2 going to say that the hours are the duplication of
3

--
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh right.
5 MR. STARR: -- reflected in the hours;
6 is that --
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry. It is not really
8 min and max, it is the minimum average and the
9 maximum average rates. So not like well there is
10 one pump somewhere that is on --
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers?
12 MR. POWERS: Not taking the -- maybe we
13 aren't done with this but I am thinking that maybe
14 we should --
15 MR. STARR: Why don't we just leave what
16 we've got and go to lunch and come back.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: I am thinking maybe we
18 can get this printed and distributed during lunch.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Well I mean this --
20 MR. BROOKMAN: How many cells did you
21 revise?
22 MS. WILLIAMS: This is more cells than

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© 2014 126 1 what is on the power point.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's just read through
3 the cells right now. Go ahead Alison.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So the inline
5 pumps -- 6 MR. POWERS: Can you mark them in yellow
7 or something.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, can you see.
9 MR. POWERS: Can you yellow the field.
10 MR. HANDZEL: I have double suction went
11 to
12 2000.
13 MR. HUBER: Me too.
14 MR. HANDZEL: Yes that was 19 something.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Estimated hours of
16 operation is that, is that a J.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So --
18 MR. POWERS: And you yellow the field,
19 you had a whole column there.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So those aren't on
21 there.
22 MR. ADIN: Over on the horsepower under

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© 2014 127 1 DT it points --
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Okay.
3 MR. POWERS: And Alison when you print
4 this for us could you open it up so we have all
5 those fields too. Because you are limited to same
6 data; right.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Well I don't -- can we
8 just send out the spreadsheet later? I don't
9 think we are going to print this.
10 MR. POWERS: Yeah. That is fine.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
12 MR. POWERS: I have one question, too.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, please.
14 MR. POWERS: That we don't -- and I
15 don't know if this is the right proposal but I
16 heard earlier where we were talking about
17 different pumps or a lot of different
18 applications. I heard which is probably a fair
19 statement that in building application in a
20 building trades you know the pump would run X
21 right. But I don't think all these pumps only go
22 to building trades.

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© 2014 128 1 MR. STARR: Right.
2 MR. POWERS: So I think to be fair we
3 don't want to overstate but as close as we can
4 because again we don't put companies out of
5 business for the wrong reasons; right? And there
6 are a lot of smaller guys out there that may think
7 as Al talked about earlier that aren't
8 participating as close as we would like them to.
9 So we talked earlier about Alison taking analysis
10 with consultants of trying to break down each of
11 these products which this is just a product and
12 you could have multiple markets and then you've
13 got to get into the application, you have got to
14 spin in 50% capacity, 100% capacity, all these
15 other factors.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
17 MR. POWERS: Again it may end up with
18 the same result you have on the sheet; right. And
19 so be it. But to be fair to the people out there
20 and these people that have jobs and we don't mess
21 them up too much and the costs involved a better
22 understanding of the variables in the market I

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© 2014 129 1 think would behoove all of us properly, then at
2 lunch and come back to make a decision.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah right. Lucas?
4 MR. ADIN: So just to reiterate. I mean
5 these are only for purpose of determining scope.
6 Like what we are going to consider.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: I understand but that
8 decision could affect something.
9 MR. ADIN: It could depending on what we
10 decide based on a bunch more analysis we all still
11 get to do.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.
13 MR. ADIN: That will take colossal
14 time.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck, so are you
16 suggesting we shouldn't read through these now?
17 MR. POWERS: No. We can. I am just
18 saying I don't want to come back from lunch or
19 something and make a decision on this stuff. In
20 my opinion maybe the group would think
21 differently. But I am -- that is my opinion.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Louis.

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© 2014 130 1 MR. STARR: Maybe this will help. Maybe
2 these -- the absolute numbers don't matter and it
3 is the relative numbers, is that more -- because
4 then it doesn't really matter too much --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
6 MR. STARR: -- what the hours of
7 operation are as long as the relative hours of
8 operation are between the pumps. And so then
9 really all we are talking about is looking at
10 these, making decisions based off of the --
11 MR. BROOKMAN: That is the -- that was
12 the thrust of the conversation at the last
13 meeting.
14 MR. STARR: Okay.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, you okay?
16 MR. ADIN: Yeah. I'm fine.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
18 [Laughter.]
19 MR. ADIN: Thanks for asking. I
20 appreciate it.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: The only time I know --
22 MR. ADIN: Generally okay.

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© 2014 131 1 MR. BROOKMAN: -- to see what we've got.
2 Meg.
3 MS. WALTNER: So this is to Alison. This
4 is Meg Waltner NRDC. So you mentioned you have
5 done different percent savings analysis too. I am
6 interested if you have anything that might be
7 close to max tech just so we could see what the
8 full range looked like. Or if not what the range
9 is above an MEI
10 40?
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I have MEI 90
12 numbers somewhere but the pump manufacturers would
13 probably kill us. I mean I have like every ten
14 percent. I don't know where --
15 MS. WALTNER: I guess I am interested in
16 seeing you know --
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alison read these
18 cells. You marked them all in yellow. These are
19 the cells that have changed.
20 MR. POWERS: Just have one question.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. Chuck.
22 MR. POWERS: Chuck Powers. In the sheet

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© 2014 132 1 that was handed out there was an estimated NEMA2 BIS numbers.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
4 MR. POWERS: That aren't on here which
5 is fine.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: They --
7 MR. POWERS: No they are not on the
8 screen, Alison.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry they are just
10 over here.
11 MR. POWERS: Okay. The question I have.
12 I think Al brought up earlier the 171 and the 50
13 you might want to mark in some color because I
14 thought I heard earlier Al mentioned those two are
15 maybe -- Greg did that they might be a little
16 high. Again I don't know I heard -- that is what
17 I heard over there; right? You were saying almost
18 50%.
19 MR. HUBER: Especially the in-line
20 looked a little high to us. But you know --
21 MR. POWERS: Okay. I am just -- didn't
22 know if that is something still questioned because

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© 2014 133 1 that would affect this rate.
2 MR. HUBER: I think -- I think --
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
4 MR. HUBER: Al Huber, Patterson. I think
5 probably we can take this information and go sit
6 down and see what we think about it with Chuck and
7 maybe come to some conclusion --
8 MR. POWERS: Sure.
9 MR. HUBER: -- on what we want to
10 support as it should.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, that's good. Okay.
12 Alison; cell by cell.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep. Okay. In-line
14 pumps we changed the estimated hours of operation
15 A from 3,000 to 2,000. Are you all writing this
16 down?
17 [Group response.]
18 MS. WILLIAMS: It doesn't look like it.
19 Just checking. Okay.
20 So that makes the annual energy use A
21 .56 instead of .84. And that makes the minimum
22 energy savings .01 instead of .02. Is everyone

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© 2014 134 1 good with In- line?
2 Okay. So next is double suction;
3 changed the operating hours from 3,000 to 2,000;
4 that changes the energy use estimate from .7 to
5 .47 and that changes the energy savings from .006
6 to .004.
7 All right. The last one is vertical
8 turbine. We changed the shaft horsepower from 4
9 to 25. We changed hours of operation A from 1699
10 to 750 and we moved the 1699 to hours of operation
11 B. That changes energy use A from .02 to .06 and
12 the energy use B is .14. And it changes the
13 energy savings; in the first column the last digit
14 changes from zero to one; and the second column
15 the last digit changes from one to two.
16 And I have the totals here if anyone
17 wants to add those to their sheet.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Read the totals.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: So the total for energy
20 use A for Lot 11 is 4.92 and adding Lot 11 plus
21 adds .56. And the total for energy use B which is
22 only Lot 11 is 5.09. I guess I probably should

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© 2014 135 1 add these other ones to it. Lot 11 plus adds .64.
2 Minimum energy savings is .07 for Lot 11
3 and an extra .004 for Lot 11 plus. And max is .24
4 and an extra .01.
5 MS. WALTNER: Alison could you unhide
6 the quads column there.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: I should note that the
8 quads column I am sure we would have a whole
9 argument about lifetime that we haven't had yet.
10 So - okay.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: So now we are moving on
12 to the next slide which is slide 2 in the newly
13 copied packet. Manufacture, redesign and
14 conversion costs. Where did this data come from?
15 MS. WILLIAMS: So I am going to let Dan
16 talk about this.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan get a seat up here.
18 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So now we
19 are moving on to circulators everyone knows. So
20 last time we were tasked to look at payback or at
21 least a preliminary payback on circulators. So to
22 do that we wanted to look at the --

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© 2014 136 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas.
2 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify we've moved
3 back to the slides in the first hand out we gave
4 you this morning. That is where these slides are
5 located.
6 MR. HANDZEL: Oh, I thought we were --
7 MR. ADIN: Sorry. The two additional
8 slides in that smaller handout are just updated
9 versions of some of the numbers we are going to
10 show you in a minute.
11 MR. HANDZEL: What number is that slide;
12 do you know?
13 MS. WILLIAMS: 11.
14 MR. ADIN: 11.
15 MR. HANDZEL: Thank you.
16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Okay. So we are on
17 circulators and we are trying to look at a kind of
18 preliminary look at incremental costs. Last time
19 the costs we looked at were retail costs. And so
20 this is very preliminary compared to what we would
21 do on a full analysis. But just to give a little
22 introduction to how we looked at the costs. So

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© 2014 137 1 one side of the cost is increased motor costs and
2 that would just be the cost to the manufacturer,
3 the being the cost of install.
4 So switching from permanent split
5 capacitor wet rotor to ECM would increase purchase
6 parts or labor costs depending on how they would
7 source those motors. And for everyone who is not
8 on the manufacturing side these motors are either
9 manufactured in house or built to spec. They are
10 not off the shelf motors. They are not going to
11 be sourced in bulk. They are either going to have
12 a design, send it out, have it made or make it in13 house for these types of wet rotor motors.
14 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. May I
15 ask a question?
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
17 MR. FERNSTROM: Are these products
18 categorically all permanent split capacitor motors
19 or are some of them simply induction motors? Or
20 simply split-phase?
21 MR. WEINTRAUB: So the vast majority --
22 this is to the circulator market, the vast

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© 2014 138 1 majority of the circulator market is a wet rotor
2 circulator which is a permanent split capacitor
3 wet rotor. There is a percentage that are not wet
4 rotors. They are very much like a small in-line
5 pump with a separately coupled motor and those
6 would be more off the shelf a/c induction motors

7 that are smaller. Any of the manufacturers can
8 comment on this.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Could you estimate the
10 percentage Dan?
11 MR. WEINTRAUB: We didn't receive enough
12 breakdown in data to get that percentage but it's
13 -- the vast majority--
14 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I would
15 like to ask the manufacturers if their motors are
16 categorically permanent split capacitor motors in
17 this class of equipment?
18 MR. HANDZEL: Want to answer.
19 MR. BARBOUR: Go for it.
20 MR. HANDZEL: Well this is Mark from
21 Xylem. So Gary I think as you saw two meetings ago
22 when I did the little session on circulators the

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© 2014 139 1 majority of us; all the circulator guys, not all
2 but the majority of us sell wet rotors, dry rotors
3 in what we call three piece which is the
4 separately coupled products. Okay. So you know I
5 would say today the majority of the market is in
6 the wet rotor business. Okay. That is where the
7 market is.
8 MR. FERNSTOM: So I am not asking about
9 the rotor. I am asking about whether these are
10 permanent split capacitor or induction motors?
11 MR. HANDZEL: In the wet rotors they are
12 permanently split capacitors as Dan says.
13 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.
14 MR. HANDZEL: Bob if you want to add
15 anything different go ahead.
16 MR. WEINTRAUB: And to put into
17 perspective I don't remember the exact numbers, I
18 can look them up, but I believe it was about 90%
19 of the total shipments under three horsepower were
20 under one quarter horsepower so 90 percent of
21 those shipments. And the vast majority of those
22 under one quarter horsepower pumps are these small

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© 2014 140 1 integrated permanent split capacitor pumps.
2 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks Dan.
4 MR. WEINTRAUB: So going back to our
5 overview here. So when we are looking at costs of
6 permanent split capacitor wet rotor motor so there
7 is no publically available data here. You can't
8 go to a catalog and look for these pumps. So for
9 this exercise we've looked at both off the shelf
10 data that was looked at in other rule makings and
11 we also surveyed the manufacturers and we were
12 able to get data from all major manufacturers of
13 circulators and put together some estimates.
14 If we were to do a full rule making and
15 were to have the time required for this we could
16 reverse engineer these motors and do a tear-down
17 and try to build the cost up from the bottom to
18 see -- to come up with an estimate which is
19 similar to what is done on many other rules and
20 has been done for motors in the past.
21 On the other side when you get away from
22 motor costs we are also looking at increase

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© 2014 141 1 manufacturer markup to cover redesigning
2 conversion costs. So in a full analysis there
3 would be a lot of economic factors that come into
4 play. In this back of the envelop analysis we
5 have aggregated what the manufacturers have
6 submitted as their conversions costs that would be
7 necessary to turn over to ECM motors for the
8 industry and we are going to look at what would be
9 necessary -- what type of markup would be
10 necessary to recoup that cost over x number of
11 years. There are a lot of factors that could come
12 into play to change that but we are just looking
13 at a first basic assumption to try and gage where
14 these costs are sitting.
15 So now looking at incremental costs on
16 motors. So and we are starting with data that was
17 used in a recently released analysis with
18 commercial refrigeration equipment. And that rule
19 looked at off the shelf PSC motors and off the
20 shelf ECM. And it looked at it from shaft
21 horsepowers ranging from six to 16 watts. Putting
22 in perspective for us a small one quarter

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© 2014 142 1 horsepower circulator pump requires 29 --
2 approximately 29.8 watts of shaft power. I am
3 sorry 1/25th horsepower. Thank you. Correction

4 there. Correction 1/25th horsepower.
5 So that is above the range that was
6 looked up. We are going to look to extrapolate
7 that. So also putting in perspective a PSC motor
8 would be approximately 90 watts of draw. And an
9 ECM motor of the same shaft horsepower would be
10 approximately 45 watts of draw.
11 So looking at what we got out of this
12 CRE cost curve, that is the curve that we have
13 down on the right, we can extrapolate both of
14 those. They are fairly linear. So we felt
15 comfortable extrapolating out to the proper shaft
16 horsepower or shaft wattage of approximately 30
17 watts. You see the PSC off the shelf would cost
18 about $15.77 and an ECM costs off the shelf
19 approximately $30.87. The ratio of cost we found
20 at that size was two to one. So you doubled your
21 cost to go to an ECM based on the public data that
22 is available for off the shelf motors.

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© 2014 143 1 Now next is where our survey came into
2 play. We were able to survey -- we were able to
3 get the baseline cost of a PSC motor that is three
4 speed and wet rotor. So something that is
5 commonly used in circulators today at 1/25th
6 horsepower. And that shipments weighted average
7 cost was $29.50. So almost double the cost of the
8 off the shelf motor. So if we are going to say --
9 if we are going to make the assumption, this is an
10 assumption because we don't have true data yet on
11 the conversion cost -- on how much it would cost,
12 the incremental cost would go up to ECM. But if
13 we use that 2.0 ratio that we saw for off the
14 shelf motors we would see that the incremental
15 cost of going to ECM would be about $29.50. So
16 this is what our analysis is showing right now;
17 and again all preliminary; that is where we are
18 right now in looking at $29.50 manufacturers cost
19 before markups to get up to an ECM motor.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: That was well presented.
21 Now let's take comments on those two slides.
22 Comments here. Charlie Cappellino. Or questions.

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© 2014 144 1 MR. CAPPELLINO: The cost here is this
2 manufacturer's cost or cost to consumer?
3 MR. WEINTRAUB: This is manufacturer's
4 cost.
5 MR. CAPPELLINO: Manufacturers.
6 MR. WEINTRAUB: So this is the cost to
7 either produce in-house or purchase from a
8 supplier before markups.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Mark Handzel.
10 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel, Xylem. So
11 Dan the commercial refrigeration equipment study
12 that you looked at --
13 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.
14 MR. HANDZEL: -- can you comment on
15 where the ECM motors that they were using in the
16 commercial refrigeration equipment were coming
17 from? Were those being custom manufactured by the
18 manufacturer or were those produced by --
19 MR. WEINTRAUB: So those are off the
20 shelf. Yes they are off the shelf motors. I think
21 they were going into blower applications and so
22 both the PSC and the ECM were off the shelf. So

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© 2014 145 1 we understand the cost is less because they are
2 off the shelf. But we were just looking at the
3 ratio which we would like to think to go from a
4 PSC off the shelf to an ECM off the shelf is -- it
5 is a ratio of added materials, added labor, added
6 overhead. We would like to think that ratio could
7 theoretically hold going to a custom product.
8 MR. HANDZEL: So Mark Handzel again. The
9 only thing I would comment back would be that
10 obviously if they are commercially off the shelf
11 they are high volume produced --
12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.
13 MR. HANDZEL: -- motors that you know
14 there is a tremendous volume that transfers into
15 an economy of scale to manufacture and they can
16 afford to sell those at a lower price where a
17 circulator pump motor would be a little bit
18 different situation. So I would just suggest that
19 you need to factor that in somehow into your
20 estimate. And I don't know if you have ever seen
21 a study that does that kind of thing. And as you
22 know we've conversed a lot about motor costs and

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© 2014 146 1 things like that because we're in the process of
2 developing an ECM platform.
3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.
4 MR. HANDZEL: And I would just tell you
5 that the motor costs themselves are staggering to
6 us.
7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes. And where we are
8 looking -- where we believe it has been factored
9 in in the preliminary look is going from $15.77 up
10 to $29.50 I think the scale is already there that
11 your cost has doubled because your scale is lower.
12 And then the ECM cost has double also. So but
13 again more detail can be put into a real analysis.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions and
15 comments?
16 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. I
17 am not sure if we gave you any feedback as far as
18 what we might have seen in the way of ECM motor
19 costs versus the traditional circulator motor
20 costs.
21 MR. WEINTRAUB: I can't comment based on
22 our conversations.

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© 2014 147 1 MR. BARBOUR: I need to check over and
2 confirm these numbers --
3 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.
4 MR. BARBOUR: -- because I am not
5 comfortable right now commenting on that.
6 MR. WEINTRAUB: So what we are saying is
7 the cost of ECM is not related to any
8 manufacturing data.
9 MR. HANDZEL: Right.
10 MR. WEINTRAUB: The only manufacturer
11 source data here was -- is the PSC wet rotor cost
12 of $29.50 which is a shipment's weighted average
13 based on inputs from manufacturers who gave me
14 permission to aggregate and distribute. The ECM
15 is an estimate of basically applying and doubling
16 the cost based on what we saw in CRE. We would
17 love to have manufacturing input on shifting up to
18 ECM. If we are able to get enough data to
19 aggregate release but we don't have that at this
20 time.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: So are you going to, Dan
22

--

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© 2014 148 1 MR. WEINTRAUB: All right. So the other
2 half of the equation is conversion costs. So like
3 I said --
4 MR. BROOKMAN: So this is the new slide;
5 right?
6 MR. WEINTRAUB: No it's the same.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: 11.
8 MR. HANDZEL: It is different.
9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Slide 13.
10 [Group discussions]
11 MR. BROOKMAN: New slide 2.
12 MR. WEINTRAUB: Oh the new one. So again
13 focusing down on these less than the one quarter
14 horsepower we surveyed manufacturers on what they
15 believe their conversion costs would be if they
16 were to shift over to all ECM production by about
17 2020. Aggregating district conversion cost $39
18 million approximately looking at annual shipments
19 of approximately 1.5 million. Right now we put in
20 an estimated payback period of four years. So
21 this is just to look at how long we would want to
22 get your money back. Of course the market will

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© 2014 149 1 determine how much they can get back in the
2 timeframe. But this is an initial look. So you
3 multiply those shipments times 4, you divide that
4 total shipments by the total cost and it comes out
5 to an incremental cost per shipment of $6.50.
6 All right. Bringing it all together.
7 Now we are looking at the incremental cost to the
8 consumer. So we had our incremental cost on the
9 motor of $29.50; right now we have an estimated
10 manufacture markup of 1.35, this will be done in
11 more detail in a full analysis, preliminary
12 distribution markup of 1.55 and working that out
13 you get the cost to consumer for the motor goes up
14 to $61.73.
15 On the other side you have your
16 conversion costs $6.50 per unit. There is no
17 manufacturer markup because this isn't a cost of
18 goods sold, this is already in the markup that is
19 being applied to it but that cost goes out through
20 distribution at 1.55. It brings you to $10.08.
21 And the total incremental cost to consumer of
22 $71.81 is what this rolls up to which will feed

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© 2014 150 1 into the payback.
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock EEI.
3 And those markups that you are showing that was
4 for other consumer products not for commercial,
5 like a commercial refrigeration product? That was
6 like

--
7 MR. WEINTRAUB: Good question. So this
8 markup right now 1.35 is preliminary based on
9 manufacturer interviews and aggregated data of the
10 pump industry.
11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But for these types of
12 pumps.
13 MR. WEINTRAUB: And I can't -- so what
14 we will say is preliminary about this is that we
15 did not focus on circulators in --
16 MR. HANDZEL: Yeah that is what I was
17 going to say --
18 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- particular. Yeah.
19 And we understand.
20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Overall. It is just
21 overall.
22 MR. WEINTRAUB: And it was just a

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© 2014 151 1 discussion. No it was mostly for the larger pump
2 products was the 1.35. So we would go back and
3 focus
4

--
5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Gotcha.
6 MR. WEINTRAUB: -- on the circulators to
7 come up with the markups that we would see in that
8 side of the industry. Again that places us back
9 to the circulator industry is very different from
10 the rest of the pump industry.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: We have a comment from
12 manufacturers about this markup number considering
13 that we are talking about circulators now.
14 MR. HANDZEL: We can't discuss --
15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah, they can't -- they
16 can't discuss that.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
18 MR. WEINTRAUB: But yeah again
19 preliminary numbers. If we were to dive into
20 circulators we would dive into circulator markups.
21 But we did not get there.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck Powers.

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© 2014 152 1 MR. POWERS: The -- I think the work you
2 are doing is good. The question I would have is
3 I'm involved in quite a bit of like some of us the
4 payback on the previous --
5 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.
6 MR. POWERS: I know what our company
7 will consider four years is too long.
8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.
9 MR. POWERS: Right. And if you have
10 something that you are going to develop but you've
11 got some work you are going to do the ROI, you
12 know, stockholders are going to look for something
13 a little sooner than that. Do you know what I
14 mean?
15 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.
16 MR. POWERS: So it is just something to
17 think about.
18 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.
19 MR. POWERS: I don't know what some of
20 the other companies are thinking but you know if
21 the average is two to three, it is tough to get
22 less than three because Charlie and I were just

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© 2014 153 1 kicking around because then she was my friend she
2 was going to -- going to BS their way through some
3 sales number to say oh we'll do better than that,
4 don't worry. And this will justify it. Well that
5

-- 6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.
7 MR. POWERS: -- doesn't work because the
8 payback has still got to be there right.
9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes.
10 MR. POWERS: So it is just something to
11 think about. It would be interesting if you also
12 play with this from my perspective again it is up
13 to these guys in circulators but what would it be
14 at three years.
15 MR WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.
16 MR. POWERS: What would it be at five
17 year. What would it be at two years. Because
18 companies, corporations the board they are going
19 to look at that. That is a big number.
20 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah. And those are
21 obviously -- that form was just preliminary --
22 MR. POWERS: Sure. Sure. Just to give

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© 2014 154 1 you an idea. But as we go through it.
2 MR. WEINTRAUB: And if we are looking
3 frankly at how this would impact this if we were
4 to put a four there that number would go up by one
5 quarter and you would get up to about $7 -- $8. It
6 is not going to be a huge difference right now
7 with the way we are looking at with the
8 assumptions in place. But we would obviously look
9 at different scenarios. Only a few dollars on that
10 71

--
11 MR. BROOKMAN: So in this evaluation you
12 are saying that the total cost to consumer going
13 into a store and buying one of these or whatever
14 is $71 additional to what they are paying now per
15 unit?
16 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yes for a 1/25th
17 horsepower pump. And again this is without taking
18 into effect market forces which will drive the
19 eventual costs. This is just saying if they were
20 to price where they might want to price.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: So what is the price of
22 the unit they are paying now?

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© 2014 155 1 MR. WEINTRAUB: This is only looking at
2 incremental right now because we don't have the
3 data on the baseline.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: So the point is if it is
5 $71 a unit now, I'm just saying --
6 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yeah.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: We are doubling that?
8 MR. WEINTRAUB: Uh-huh.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Where you know if it's --
10 MR. WEINTRAUB: If we are saying motor
11 cost is driving the total cost which is it a
12 significant portion of the total cost. Then if
13 motor cost is the majority. We are saying motor
14 costs doubles, then in effect you are saying the
15 total cost doubles.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?
17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I have two
18 points. In that last comparison I think we were
19 comparing apples to oranges. So what you
20 presented was what you estimated the incremental
21 cost might be not subject to market forces. That
22 is to say if manufacturers were allowed to charge

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© 2014 156 1 what they think is appropriate. However the
2 current price is subject to market forces that we
3 pay in the market. So to say the price would
4 double I don't think is necessarily fair because
5 we are using a baseline price which is subject to
6 market forces and this increment estimate which is
7 not.
8 The second point I would like to make is
9 a question of the manufacturers. I understand you
10 can't discuss price. However my question is this.
11 If you are selling a product in larger volume that
12 is more commoditized would in general it be not
13 correct that the margin, the manufacturer's markup
14 would be lower? It seems to me the more
15 commoditized higher volume product would in
16 general have a lower markup than the smaller
17 volume less commoditized more specialized
18 products. Is that a fair statement about business
19 economics?
20 MR. HANDZEL: Gary, this is Mark. I am
21 still, I am not comfortable answering so I am
22 sorry I can't answer that.

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© 2014 157 1 MS. WILLIAMS: So this is Alison. I
2 will just add that you know when we are looking at
3 payback we still have the incremental motor costs
4 provided by the manufacturers and we have a little
5 bit of range of stuff to look at. So understood
6 that we don't have all the answers right now. You
7 know Dan has I think put together a very good
8 estimate based on what we have available to us
9 today. And obviously if we decide to go forward
10 with circulators then that will be adjusted. But
11

-- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: So Dan you'll have a
13 final slide --
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: That would be slide 4?
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
17 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary with maybe
18 one more point. My observation would be this
19 seems to line up with the difference in cost in
20 the market between these two types of products now
21 such that they are available.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

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© 2014 158 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So one of the
2 other things we updated for circulators or
3 provided more of a range for is operating hours.
4 So I just have this table right here. We did a
5 little bit more thorough literature review to try
6 to find what is out there.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Where is it?
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Is it in your original
9 packet?
10 MR. ADIN: Slide 10 in the original.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I want this
12 slide.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Slide 10 in the original
14 packet.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: So okay so pretty much
16 the HI's estimate seems to be about the minimum
17 that is out there. Again the data that is out
18 there and the literature does not seem to be very
19 much based on actual implementation it is sort of
20 people's guesses. So I just want to clear that up
21 that none of these data are super reliable. On
22 the max end for hydronic heating we found about

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© 2014 159 1 3000 hours and for potable water recirc the 7300
2 is a CA IOUs estimate which is based on 50%
3 constant load, 50% on controls operating 16 hours
4 a day. So the -- or something in the middle of
5 what we found for potable water research is 5475
6 which is also based on 50% constant but they have
7 50% on controls operating only six hours a day.
8 And we got an estimate for hydronic heating of
9 about 2520. So actually -- so I just wanted to
10 show this is the range of hours that we found in
11 the literature. I actually have another
12 spreadsheet for circulators.
13 So slide 4 in your new packet will look
14 at next. I am going to pull up --
15 MR. FERNSTROM: Alison this is Gary. Can
16 I make a comment about the last slide you showed?
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
18 MR. FERNSTROM: I think it would be
19 useful if we could try and differentiate this
20 between residential, small commercial and medium
21 sized commercial applications because I think the
22 hydronic heating and potable water circulation

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© 2014 160 1 hours in medium sized commercial applications
2 would be higher. I am thinking about hotels,
3 motels, commercial office buildings and equipment
4 larger than a quarter horsepower.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: So we've only really been
6 looking -- I mean the estimates we have for motor
7 costs are all less than a quarter horsepower. So
8 that is what is in this table is all -- maybe it
9 is not on here. The table is less than a quarter
10 horsepower. I apologize. Slide 4 in your new
11 packet.
12 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. We asked
13 the question about circulators you know going up
14 to two and three horsepower; so it was basically
15 below a quarter horsepower and above a quarter
16 horsepower. Now there doesn't seem to be any
17 estimate for equipment --
18 MS. WILLIAMS: So I actually have it in
19 the spreadsheet. We don't have incremental motor
20 costs for it for -- there is no payback and there
21 -- I don't have a differentiation between
22 operating hours of residential and commercial at

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© 2014 161 1 this time. I assume most of the commercial is in
2 a quarter to three and I
3

--
4 MR. POWERS: Our sheets don't match this
5 by the way.
6 MR. HANDZEL: Yes I was just going to
7 say that is the spreadsheet. We don't have the
8 same slide.
9 MR. POWERS: We don't the same slide.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
11 MR. POWERS: We don't have the horse
12 powers at the top. We are missing some of the
13 data.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: So you have just this.
15 MR. POWERS: No we don't have any -- it
16 doesn't tell us horsepower.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Because it is all the one
18 quarter
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Sorry but it is all
20 -- you have the slate clean --
21 MR. BROOKMAN: It doesn't match.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: You are right.

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© 2014 162 1 MR. POWERS: No we don't have the --
2 This says 10.l years.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: You are right.
4 The 10.1 must not be correct. I
5 apologize.
6 MR. BARBOUR: How do we know?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Because this is
8 calculated in my spreadsheet. So it should be 9.6
9 and 6.6. I must have made -- I am sorry. I must
10 have made an edit in the calculator and not pulled
11 it into the spreadsheet.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh. On the slide?
13 MS. WILLIAMS: On the slide, sorry.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Tell us what the figure
15 should be where?
16 MS. WILLIAMS: It looks like the first
17 column the payback should be 9.6 and the second
18 column should be 6.6. So again I apologize. We
19 were just making updates on these and I failed to
20 update the slide properly.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Did everybody get that?
22 That is the payback years changes column 1 9.6 and

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© 2014 163 1 column 2
2 6.6.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. So it looks -- so
4 everything else looks the same. And so I did a
5 spreadsheet so we can play with things if we want
6 to but basically I have four scenarios.
7 The first one -- oh the other thing we
8 also got down here that is also on your sheet is
9 also the percentage of shipments that are potable
10 water recirc versus the percentage that are
11 hydronic heating. It looks like about 22% are
12 potable water. This is based on casing material
13 and NSF certification.
14 So in the -- I have also differentiated
15 the operating hours by application. And so right
16 now in the spreadsheet I am looking at two
17 scenarios. The minimum and the sort of middle
18 range scenarios. So we could also plug in the
19 higher range scenario if we want to.
20 And then we are looking at two scenarios
21 of motor costs. The one that the manufacturers
22 provided us last week which was 112.50 and the one

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© 2014 164 1 that Dan just shared with us now which is the
2 71.81. So basically between these two different
3 motor costs and these two different operating hour
4 assumptions we have four different payback periods
5 ranging from 9.6 down to 4.2.
6 MR. POWERS: So I have a dumb question.
7 Just try to help me out. So the lifetime for
8 trial one is ten years and you use the same all
9 the way across but the payback is almost ten
10 years.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep. For the first one.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Barbour?
13 MR. BARBOUR: Can you tell me where the
14 ten years came from?
15 MS. WILLIAMS: The ten years is sort of
16 an estimate from discussions with manufacturers.
17 We could -- you mean the lifetime or the --
18 MR. BARBOUR: Yeah, the lifetime ten
19 years.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: So the only thing the
21 lifetime is actually used for is these quads
22 estimates. The payback -- I mean we can look at

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© 2014 165 1 the payback relative to lifetime. But I am happy
2 -- you know last time we started out with five, we
3 adjusted it to seven to ten, we heard from some
4 manufacturers that probably ten is more like it.
5 So that is what we are using right now. But we
6 can open up that discussion again.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: We should keep going.
8 MR. BARBOUR: I just question whether or
9 not you can support the ten years. I mean we -- I
10 can only speak for the testing that we've done on
11 some ECM
12

-- 13 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
14 MR. BARBOUR: -- style circulators in
15 U.S.
16 systems. And U.S. systems not being the
17 clean water that you might see in other locations
18 where ECMs are used and we are not seeing ten year
19 lives.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Correct. And that is why
21 we had five to start with. But it seemed like we
22 got feedback that it should be higher. So yes, I

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© 2014 166 1 don't know that anybody has data to support this
2 because most of the manufacturers have just rolled
3 out ECMs in the U.S. pretty recently. And so it
4 is hard to know what the lifetimes are.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.
6 MR. STARR: Louis Starr. I kind of
7 looked at this chart. Essentially what this chart
8 is showing you that if you use increment cost of
9 $112 on the motor and you use low hours you get
10 ten years. If you use a little bit higher hours
11 you get 6.9. Then if you use an increment cost of
12 $71 and use the low hours you get 6.2 year payback
13 and if you use the higher number of hours you get
14 4.2 year payback. So what it is really doing is
15 just giving us a range of years over there
16 anywhere from 10.1 at worst case scenario to 4.2
17 at the best case scenario. It is --
18 MR. POWERS: And that was the point --
19 this is Chuck Powers -- and that was the point I
20 was trying to make because if it is ten years life
21 and I am not a circulator now, I am just talking
22 business practice if it is a ten year life and the

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© 2014 167 1 payback is ten years very few people are going to
2 -- companies are going to survive over that. If
3 it is ten year life and 6.2 payback it will be
4 questionable. The other thing on a business
5 practice is if Lucas comes back to us and says you
6 have to be cognizant and in compliance within five
7 years, then anything with a payback of five years
8 or greater even close to that will be a problem
9 for us.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: This is payback to
11 consumers.
12 MR. POWERS: I know but the same thing
13 would also apply to us, the cost involved with
14 developing the equipment because I think the
15 previous chart was showing some in our
16 calculations how many years it is going to be to
17 pay back to make up that incremental cost to
18 develop the stuff; right? So you have to look at
19 kind of both, the consumers --
20 MS. WILLIAMS: They are two different
21 things. I just want to make sure.
22 MR. POWERS: But they are very very

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© 2014 168 1 heavily weighted on consumers as well as the
2 manufacturers whether they survive in this or go
3 off shore with it and close plants down and make
4 those decisions; right. I think most companies
5 will stay in the business; it is whether we have
6 manufacturing in the U.S. any more or not like
7 we've done to the motor manufacturing, right. So
8 that is just a concern.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Gary
10 Fernstrom?
11 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I
12 would like to make two points. I don't think it
13 is a foregone conclusion that a rule affecting
14 circulators would necessarily become effective in
15 five years. I think there is some room for
16 negotiation there in order to give U.S.
17 manufacturers an opportunity to adapt to
18 this.
19 And the second thing is we continue to
20 use a savings estimate for the ECM motor at
21 constant full load. And these motors are
22 adjustable. And I'd have to believe that if a

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© 2014 169 1 feature were available to adjust the speed to take
2 advantage of additional savings it would be
3 utilized. So the full speed, full speed does not
4 seem to me to be the appropriate comparison. It
5 would seem to me that it would be full speed to
6 some slightly reduced speed.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So Gary thanks for
8 bringing that up. I have -- we did a calculation
9 of running ECM at 80% speed compared to a A/C
10 induction full speed that is 73% savings. So if I
11 plug that in you get a payback period range from
12 5.9 to 2.6.
13 MR. FERNSTROM: Well I think -- I think
14 for the group's benefit we ought to take - have
15 that scenario available for consideration.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman?
17 MR. ECKMAN: Yes I think we are getting
18 a little ahead of ourselves on the economics since
19 we don't have a comparative economic on Lot 11 and
20 Lot 11 plus so I'd rather not focus on that
21 necessarily at this point in time. We will find
22 out whether there are economic opportunities when

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© 2014 170 1 we do a more thorough analysis. So right now it is
2 sort of back of the envelope. The other back of
3 the envelope number that is pretty striking to me
4 however is line 12 and line 11 up there which is
5 the quads and the terawatt-hours worth of
6 potential savings. If you look at those numbers
7 relative to what is in Lot 11, they are pretty
8 striking.
9 MR. HANDZEL: Those are over 30 years.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: I said that in line 10
11 the terawatt hour savings is just a single year of
12 savings.
13 MR. HANDZEL: Okay.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: So that compares to
15 what's in slide 1 of the updated packet. So --
16 MR. ECKMAN: Those start with the
17 numbers right after the decimal.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean so if you add up
19 the Lot 11 where -- let me switch to this real
20 quick. So if we sum the Lot 11 ones it is .07 to
21 .24. And my scenarios for circulators are .15 to
22 .22.

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© 2014 171 1 MR. BROOKMAN: This is important. So I
2 want you to restate Alison and show us on the
3 slide. This is the previous slide and I know it
4 is at the bottom there.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, so for --
6 MR. BROOKMAN: The sum --
7 MS. WILLIAMS: The sum of the Lot 11
8 comes - only the energy savings range is .07 to
9 .24, annual terawatt hours from a single year
10 shipments, and for circulators it is -- we are
11 estimating it currently at .15 to .22 for constant
12 speed full load. So they are comparable numbers
13 if you look at them as a whole. And that --- and
14 so that is something to emphasize like the reason
15 we would compare it to Lot 11 together as opposed
16 to a single equipment class is because the burden
17 of us doing the analyses is similar. You know all
18 the Lot 11 pumps plus others doesn't really matter
19 how many we do. You know that is the quad -- or
20 that is the terawatt hours we could potentially
21 get from that group; and whereas the circulators
22 savings will be a net incremental analytical

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© 2014 172 1 burden to get those.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: I didn't understand that
3 last statement. Do you want to explain that to me
4 Louis?
5 MR. STARR: Well my take on what she was
6 saying is that it would provide justification for
7 second rulemaking on circulators separately
8 because the amount of energy savings available of
9 Lot 11 is similar in quantity available in
10 circulators

--
11 MR. ECKMAN: By themselves.
12 MR. STARR: -- by themselves. So the
13 justification making a rule making on Lot 11 is
14 the same amount of energy savings available for
15 circulators. So I -- I don't know if that is the
16 point or not but --
17 MR BROOKMAN: That is your
18 interpretation.
19 MR. STARR: That is my interpretation.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?
21 Certainly one.
22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

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© 2014 173 1 You show a percent saving from the ECM. What kind
2 of range are you seeing out in the marketplace at
3 constant full load? What is a range of savings?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean it is pretty much
5 like 40% to 50% I would say --
6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: 40% TO 50%.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: -- for the -- these are
8 the small circulators --
9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The small ones.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: -- the range gets lower
11 the higher the horsepower.
12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Are you saying between
13 one quarter and three horsepower how much lower
14 does it get?
15 MS. WILLIAMS: I think we are estimating
16 like 22% or 25% for those.
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. That is very
19 helpful. Thank you. Chuck --
20 Hey folks in a little bit we are going
21 to pause for lunch. We need to figure out a
22 little bit what we are doing before we go to

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© 2014 174 1 lunch. So let's stay focused right now.
2 Chuck Powers.
3 MR. POWERS: Yeah. Chuck Powers at
4 Flowserve. So an observation which is interesting
5 that you brought up that is good is that if you've
6 got 1.5 million units at a quarter horsepower and
7 all Lot 11 depending which number you use 300,000
8 to 400,000 up to two hundred horsepower then the
9 math probably looks about right because equally
10 they are the same savings as a group; right.
11 MR. ECKMAN: It is just a lot of mass.
12 MR. POWERS: It is just a matter of how
13 you want to play it and how you want to look at
14 it; right. So you've got -- so it is all relative
15 how we make our decisions and what makes the most
16 sense when you stand back and look at the total
17 deal; right.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: And the big difference
19 also right is that we are looking at ECMs for
20 circulators which is a much higher percentage
21 savings than just looking at hydraulic efficiency
22 improvement for the other products.

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© 2014 175 1 MR. ECKMAN: It is a 1% to 2% or 3% on
2 the pump.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
4 MR. ECKMAM: And a 50% on the motor.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Right.
6 MR. ECKMAN: You don't have to have
7 near as many to make --
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you for those
9 additional comments. That is helpful. Now to
10 Gary Fernstrom.
11 MR. FERNSTROM: So I'd like to thank
12 LBNL and Navigant and the Hydraulics Institute.
13 The first two for the additional analysis and HI
14 for some additional market information I believe
15 they brought to the table. It gives us a much
16 better look at circulators. Yes I think we are a
17 little ahead of the game in trying to predict how
18 the economic analysis is going to look but in
19 trying to decide whether to include those in this
20 rule making or a future one I think it is
21 important to have some insight into that even
22 though it is not precise yet.

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© 2014 176 1 And one last thought there are two steps
2 of energy savings opportunity associated with
3 these circulators. One is simply going from the
4 induction motor to the ECM motor. The other is
5 incorporation of the value of controls, and
6 manufacturers have pointed out that there is a lot
7 of value associated with controls. I agree. I
8 think it is going to take us a couple of years to
9 work together to figure out how to do that
10 correctly because the Europeans do it one way and
11 other methods have been suggested for the U.S.
12 market. So if we put this off to a
13 second rulemaking I want to work to get to the end
14 game and to include the benefit of controls. I
15 think it would take a couple of years to do that
16 plus the time then to conduct the rule making and
17 the time to have it effective. So my estimate is
18 we'd be looking out probably eight to ten years.
19 On the other hand if we can get ECM motors alone
20 in this rule making we might get that to actually
21 be implemented in an eight year time frame which
22 would give manufacturers enough time to adjust to

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© 2014 177 1 that.
2 And in the meantime we can be looking at
3 how to capture the savings that controls offer
4 correctly, get that right. And do that the next
5 time around.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?
7 MR. STARR: Another alternative to that
8 is perhaps right after this rule making roll in a
9 negotiated rulemaking on circulators and then skip
10 the eight to ten years maybe something less than
11 that. And so I don't know if that is a possibility
12 or not.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: I would offer if that as
14 someone who has conducted hundreds of negotiations
15 over the span of 25 years and dealt with many
16 negotiations and rule making groups and who has
17 dealt with many negotiating groups such as this, a
18 group like this that has a significant amount of
19 experience when they do hit the ground they hit it
20 running if they reconvene to take up another task.
21 You know your productivity rate is
22 greater immediately and you reach the finish line

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© 2014 178 1 faster in my experience. Just as a process note
2 that that is something you might anticipate should
3 you choose to have a second rule making followed
4 on with this group or some like group to take up
5 circulator pumps.
6 Gary?
7 MR. FERNSTROM: So one more thought. If
8 it turns out we do put this off until the second
9 rule making I'd like to throw out the idea that we
10 include swimming pool pumps because I continued to
11 be miffed that DOE has preempted the states that
12 have swimming pool pump regulations and it would
13 be a good opportunity to adopt this federally.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: And so I am glad you
15 inserted that one more time.
16 MR. FERNSTROM: I continued to be
17 miffed.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Not the miffed part but
19 the content part, the scope part.
20 Bob?
21 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. I
22 think I have already gone on record at earlier

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© 2014 179 1 meetings saying that I would be in agreement with
2 foregoing for a second rule making. That has been
3 discussed back in my company and I know that that
4 would still be supported. I don't know how the
5 rest of the -- I believe all the rest of the HI's
6 in the room would agree with that. I am not sure
7 -- I haven't spoken to Greg about it. So I am not
8 sure how Greg would feel about that from Grundfos
9 perspective but I just want to go on recording
10 saying we would support that.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
12 MR. BARBOUR: To help shorten the
13 timeframe to get this moving.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Meg. And I am not -
15 - I am going to suggest that we go to lunch, give
16 the caucuses time to talk this thing over before
17 we go any further toward actually voting on this
18 at this time.
19 Meg, please?
20 MS. WALTNER: Yes, so one thing that I
21 am having trouble understanding in all this is
22 what the incremental effort difference is between

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© 2014 180 1 going to the manufacturers and asking about Lot 11
2 and circulators now versus doing that all twice
3 and having this group meet in two separate rule
4 makings. It seems to me without knowing enough
5 maybe about your process that having two separate
6 processes would actually be a greater effort
7 overall and for all of us. So maybe something
8 that you guys can comment on.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, I mean so I think --
10 you can jump in -- the two biggest differences we
11 see are going to be the engineering analysis and
12 the LCC because engineering will be covering
13 motors instead of hydraulic efficiency. It is a
14 completely different analysis essentially;
15 different design options and all that. So while
16 we've already conducted the manufacturer
17 interviews and have all sorts of detail analysis
18 are basically ready to go essentially --
19 MS. WALTNER: On most types.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: -- with -- for Lot 11
21 pumps.
22 MR BROOKMAN: Lot 11 plus.

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© 2014 181 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah that is
2 pretty much already done whereas the engineering
3 analysis for the different motors stuff for
4 circulators is not done yet. Another thing is
5 that the LCC is already pretty much set up for Lot
6 11 and Lot 11 plus pumps and because the
7 engineering analysis is different and the market
8 is different we would probably have to
9 significantly modify the existing LCC model to
10 handle that. So we think we are in good shape to
11 actually present probably engineering and LCC for
12 next meeting for Lot 11 and Lot 11 plus pumps.
13 Plus if we vote things out today we would not be
14 in a position to do that for circulators for some
15 unknown additional time period.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case?
17 MR. WEINTRAUB: I am going to -- Dan
18 Weintraub just add to this more things that need
19 to be done. So manufacturing impact analysis is
20 significantly different for a commoditized product
21 such as circulators versus the rest of the pumps.
22 We have a good handle on the impact for Lot 11

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© 2014 182 1 plus but for circulators we are going to have to
2 dive deep into that because we have a small
3 population of manufacturers that are producing
4 commoditized products that are just completely
5 different so we'd have to really understand those
6 costs which we just have not done yet. All we've
7 done is touch the surface by collecting data.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: So yeah. Go ahead. Greg
9 is next.
10 MR. CASE: On the Lot 11 plus I'd like to
11 note that those weren't really asked about during
12 your interviews and the cost to improve the double
13 suction designs would be significantly higher than
14 the Lot 11 that we did talk about.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: The manufacturer
16 interviews included all Lot 11 and Lot 11 plus
17 proposed pump types.
18 MR. CASE: Double suction pumps.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Not everybody -- not
20 everybody answered everything.
21 MR. WEINTRAUB: Not everybody chose --
22 Dan Weintraub. Not everybody chose to discuss

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© 2014 183 1 them but we looked to discuss all proposed in the
2 framework.
3 MR. CASE: Okay. There are significant
4 cost differences --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: We understand.
6 MR. CASE: -- for double suction pump
7 design and patterns, tooling et cetera --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yep.
9 MR. WEINTRAUB: Yep.
10 MR. CASE: -- that are much different
11 than Lot 11. Okay.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom?
13 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary for the
14 California Investor Owned Utilities. I'd just
15 like to make the observation that I don't think we
16 are going to learn a lot more about circulators.
17 Everybody has come to the table with I believe the
18 best information that we can get on the market,
19 the shipments, the incremental cost, and the
20 performance which PG&E has extensively
21 investigated. Our lab results are NIST traceable
22 and it would seem to me that the Department of

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© 2014 184 1 Energy might not need to replicate them in order
2 to get the same answer. They might find them
3 sufficient to rely on. And as I understand it the
4 rule is supposed to come out by the end of this
5 year. So it doesn't seem to me unreasonable that
6 these analyses ought to be able to be done if
7 there is the will to pursue this. Certainly we've
8 established that the energy savings relative to
9 other parts of this rule making are significant.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other
11 comments here. Lucas?
12 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify. So Gary is
13 correct in that the goal was to have the NOPR
14 published by the end of the year. But to do that
15 we have to have a term sheet by July. So all the
16 analysis would have to be complete and decisions
17 made on standards levels by -- well before that
18 time. So that is in part you know some of the
19 consideration that we are taking into account with
20 respect to the feasibility of doing this.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Dan Weintraub?
22 MR. WEINTRAUB: Dan Weintraub. I'll

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© 2014 185 1 also respond to Gary. So what we proposed -- what
2 we've shown for incremental cost is an estimate
3 for one type of product within this class that we
4 are looking at. To do a full analysis we have to
5 analyze all the different types of products that
6 are in here that is only one of them especially
7 when we are looking at larger pumps which are
8 going to have different economics. And ideally we
9 would like to do a reverse engineering tear-down
10 cost model on this because the known costs of ECM
11 right now within this market are really not there
12 especially when we are looking at scaling up to a
13 full economy of scale. So it is only a very --
14 we've only touched the surface when it comes to
15 incremental cost is what it comes down to.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna?
17 MS. MAUER: Dan or Alison can you give
18 us some sense of how much time we'd need?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: I would have to ask my
20 staff. Probably - there -- I mean so let me -- so
21 let me talk about what the plan is on our side for
22 Lot 11, Lot 11 Plus which is if we vote our scope

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© 2014 186 1 and metric today we think we can do engineering
2 LCC in April and shipments and NIA in May and then
3 June would be like downstream and deliberations
4 and revisiting and whatever. So doing engineering
5 and LCC by April and shipments and NIA and MIA by
6 May is already going to keep our staff like 100%
7 busy.
8 MR. ADIN: So the other point to make is
9 that we are much, much farther ahead on everything
10 else because we've been looking at it since the
11 framework and you know we didn't have that much on
12 circulators so it is not to say we are exactly a
13 year ahead with these other pump types compared
14 with circulators I mean we couldn't necessarily
15 quantify it that way but definitely we are a lot
16 farther along.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Gary Fernstrom.
18 MR. FERNSTROM: I'd just like to point
19 out that we've been asking for circulators for two
20 and a half years; first with the Hydraulics
21 Institute and then with the Department of Energy
22 as soon as it became involved.

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© 2014 187 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So let me ask you this. I
2 think we've now -- Alison, Lucas, we've now
3 received a presentation on all the material that
4 is current that we are likely to receive today
5 that we know of; correct?
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
7 MR. ADIN: That we know of.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: And we have entertained
9 as many questions and updates on the data as we
10 can given the members present?
11 MR. ADIN: Yes.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am going to suggest
13 we go to lunch. But before we go to lunch I want
14 your thoughts on how when we return you know that
15 my intention is to bring us to as vote on the --
16 what's to be excluded and included whether we
17 should try and keep this together as a package,
18 whether we should vote on -- see if there are any
19 exclusions in Lot 11, see if there are any
20 circulators should be excluded, and then move from
21 there to -- pardon me, see if there are any
22 exclusions on Lot 11 Plus and then move from there

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© 2014 188 1 to see if there are any exclusions considered for
2 Lot 11. How do you think we should consider this
3 as a group and take votes?
4 MS. WALTNER: I think we may need to
5 caucus to even know how we might want to proceed.
6 I don't know if that is --
7 MR. BROOKMAN: I was going to -- so one
8 thought I had was perhaps each of the major
9 caucuses, the energy efficiency efficacy caucus,
10 and the manufacturers caucus could have a couple
11 of representatives just meet with me for ten or 15
12 minutes when we break for lunch. And we will just
13 talk through the options a little bit; get a
14 temperature read and then you can -- and then when
15 we come back from lunch you can meet with the rest
16 of your caucus or you can see them over lunch and
17 we can see where we stand. Or we can talk about
18 this as a whole working group when we return from
19 lunch.
20 Al?
21 MR. HUBER: Al Huber Patterson. I would
22 like to make a proposal that we just take them up

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© 2014 189 1 line by line.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?
3 MR. ADIN: Just to clarify when you say
4 line by line you mean each yellow --
5 MR. HUBER: No, no, no.
6 MR. ADIN: -- each pump type?
7 MR. HUBER: Each pump type line by line.
8 You don't have that --
9 MR. BARBOUR: Didn't we already do that.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: It occurs to me how they
11 get packaged might make a difference.
12 MR. ADIN: I think --
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob.
14 MR. BARBOUR: Bob Barbour from TACO. Are
15 you saying bring them -- when you say bring them
16 up line by line are you saying include them in a
17 current rule making and then have -- or have the
18 option of having a second rule making and
19 proposing them into that.
20 MR. HUBER: I think that is only for
21 circulators

--
22 MR. BARBOUR: You don't think any of the

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© 2014 190 1 other yellows should be moved in to a second rule
2 making?
3 MR. BROOKMAN: So my preliminary read;
4 this is just --
5 MR. HUBER: I don't think --
6 MR. BROOKMAN: -- my impression. I
7 don't know if you have all read any of the meeting
8 summaries that I've been writing. Having --
9 [Group response]
10 MR. BROOKMAN: My general impression is
11 that circulators remains the hardest nut for this
12 group to consider at this point. And both sides
13 have demonstrated I'd say equal amount of passion
14 and convictions where your position is so if I was
15 going to call the question and get right after it
16 I would say when we return from lunch we take up
17 the issue of circulators and see where that falls
18 out.
19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: As a formal vote --
20 Steven Rosenstock, EEI -- are you talking about as
21 a formal vote?
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes as a formal vote.

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© 2014 191 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: And then proceed from
3 there to see whether it is line by line or
4 categories of pumps and so -- let me float that as
5 an idea for anybody that wishes to rebut.
6 Okay. I see no significant rebuttal on
7 that idea.
8 Then let's go to lunch. It is 12:17,
9 let's return at 1:20. Please make sure you wear
10 your badges.
11 Jack, will someone stay in this room or
12 can we lock it?
13 MR. GRAUL: I will get -- but I will be
14 here.
15 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Someone will stay
16 here.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Someone will stay here.
18 We've covered a lot of ground here today
19 already. And when we return from lunch we will
20 pick up a vote on circulators first and then go
21 from there to the other items.
22 (WHEREUPON, a lunch recess was

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© 2014 192 1 taken.)
2 MR. BROOKMAN: My apologies for those
3 joining us online for me not greeting you at the
4 outset. The Department of Energy has tried hard
5 to make these meetings accessible and also very
6 transparent so we appreciate your accessing the
7 meeting on the web.
8 As we went to lunch we had -- before we
9 went to lunch we had a lot of good discussion and
10 data. I know that over lunch that each of the
11 primary caucuses had some discussion. And as I
12 understand it maybe we hear as we start off
13 immediately following lunch we have a proposal or
14 two to consider.
15 Yes, Tom?
16 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest Power
17 and Conservation Council. So on behalf of the
18 efficiency advocates --
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Talk slowly.
20 MR. ECKMAN: I have to. I have to
21 compose my thoughts exactly. We believe that the
22 circulator pumps can be held to a second event. We

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© 2014 193 1 would like to include in the terms that comes out
2 of this negotiation a schedule for that to happen
3 so that that is clear to everybody that we intend
4 to get there and do that as quickly as
5 practicable. Our view of that is is it somewhere
6 close to the end of this year. But that will
7 probably have to be negotiated with DOE and others
8 as we begin - but we begin that process
9 immediately following this one and try and
10 consummate before the end of the year.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And of course then
12 it -- so you are speaking on behalf of the entire
13

--
14 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: -- caucus?
16 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Circulator pumps as a
18 second negotiation and that would also mean that
19 there is a - - as an action item that this
20 committee would take a recommendation to ASRAC to
21 work in the group 2 asap.
22 MR. ECKMAN: And that would be

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© 2014 194 1 circulators and pool pumps.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Circulators and pool
3 pumps.
4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I am -- are
5 pool pumps, are those pumps that you can
6 distinguish. I mean do you make -- do you produce
7 pumps that you know are going to pool pump
8 applications?
9 MR. HANDZEL: Yes.
10 MS. MAUER: Yes.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: Can I clarify that also.
12 Because I thought last week the determination was
13 that many of those would actually be covered and
14 have been submitted as end suction pumps.
15 MR. HANDZEL: Mark Handzel from Xylem.
16 So when you get in the commercial pool pumps --
17 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
18 MR. HANDZEL: -- there is no
19 differentiation.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
21 MR. HANDZEL: Okay. We are selling an
22 end suction closed couple pump. Okay. Some of

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© 2014 195 1 them include an integrated basket strainer.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
3 MR. HANDZEL: And you get into the
4 residential market they are plastic body and --
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
6 MR. HANDZEL: -- they all have
7 integrated basket strainer. So it is -- you can
8 very easily differentiate them.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
10 MR. HANDZEL: So again it is a
11 residential and a commercial.
12 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. The
13 small pool pump that Mark is alluding to is used
14 in both the residential and small commercial
15 market. Commercial market being defined as more
16 than two units sharing a pool, homeowner's
17 association, hotel, motel, typically those are
18 single phase products less than five horsepower.
19 So we can distinguish what we're talking about
20 when we talk about a dedicated purpose pool pump.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: So Tom thank you for
22 that. Did I capture that adequately?

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© 2014 196 1 MR. ECKMAN: Yeah.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Circulator pumps plus pool
3 pumps you're suggesting they be considered in a
4 second negotiation and include in this rule
5 making's term sheet?
6 MR. ECKMAN: That is right.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: And also note that that
8 requires or that would obviate that the working
9 group recommend to ASRAC as soon as possible to
10 get that done?
11 Meg?
12 MS. WALTNER: Yes, I would just add and
13 I think Tom said this that through the target date
14 we envision was a term sheet from that second
15 negotiation by the end of this year.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: By the end of?
17 MS. WALTNER: By the end of December.
18 MR. ECKMAN: Calendar '14 if we can get -
19 --- that would be the goal.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: To calendar --
21 [Discusion]
22 MR. ECKMAN: There are other parties

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© 2014 197 1 around that have different view but -- I'm looking
2 at the staff.
3 [Laughter]
4 MR. BROOKMAN: And as I understand it
5 also

- 6 -
7 MR. ECKMAN: We'd have to raise taxes.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: -- the manufacturer's
9 caucus also has a proposal.
10 MR. HUBER: We want the whole group to
11 know that we support the proposal by the
12 efficiency advocates.
13 Our proposal is that we adopt Lot 11 and
14 not Lot 11 Plus because the savings of Lot 11 Plus
15 are not very great and because the cost to
16 redesign are extremely high and extremely time
17 consuming. Also double suction pumps as a
18 percentage of the total pump market are declining
19 because people are switching to less expensive
20 forms which are larger end suction in- line and so
21 forth which are not as expensive as the double
22 suction. And we are seeing the market decline. So

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© 2014 198 1 we really -- it is our proposal that we do not
2 adopt any of Lot 11 Plus.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?
4 MR. STARR: No.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have questions?
6 Steve Rosenstock?
7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Just a very brief
8 question
9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So for the top one it
10 is like Gary said dedicated purpose or dedicated
11 service pool pumps so that --
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want --
13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- that is the way --
14 your definition?
15 MR. FERNSTROM: Why don't we say single16 phase less than -- no that is not the pump, it is
17 the motor. These are integral products. This is
18 Gary so why don't we say single phase less than
19 five horsepower.
20 MR. STARR: Wouldn't it be --
21 MS. WILLIAMS: But some --
22 MR. STARR: -- an integrated pool pump.

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© 2014 199 1 [Discussion]
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I just wondered if
3 dedicated purpose might be a better way to
4 distinguish it.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: So we don't need single
6 phase?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't -- this is
8 Alison. I am not sure that is sufficient because
9 some of those will overlap with what we are
10 already covering.
11 MR. HANDZEL: But the group will decide
12 what the scope is.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. So I think --
14 MR. HANDZEL: Besides I don't think we
15 should try to define it here.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. I agree. I think
17 if we know that we are talking about dedicated
18 purpose pool pumps.
19 MR. ECKMAN: We agree on the intent, the
20 King's English --
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Right. I don't want to
22 mess up the details.

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© 2014 200 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I'll put both those
2 descriptions in there, dedicated or integrated
3 pool pumps.
4 MR. ECKMAN: Yep.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Tom.
6 MR. ECKMAN: Just to note we agree with
7 the endorsed --
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. So the EE
9 advocates agree to the manufacturers proposal as a
10 caucus.
11 Chuck?
12 MR. POWERS: A question. This is just
13 for understanding? You wrote second negotiation,
14 she typed for phase 2, what is the right words?
15 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't --
16 MR. POWERS: And I am going to put out
17 one more -- that is one question. I am not trying
18 to change anything. When we talk Lot 11, Lot 11
19 Plus, just for Lucas from a pure clarity
20 standpoint are we in this room probably a pretty
21 good understanding what that means. Two months
22 from now somebody reads it; what does Lot 11

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© 2014 201 1 really mean? So my recommendation - the
2 recommendation would be we classify this sheet on
3 here somehow and call it page whatever; whatever
4 you want to and clearly say either green Lot 11
5 and down here where it says circulators put it
6 right underneath the green and say phase 2 or
7 negotiate 2. And then yellow is 11 plus which --
8 we need it on the list but we know it is out. And
9 then the red speaks for itself I guess; right. So
10 I am just saying anybody six months from now says
11 well what pumps are in there. Well it is the OH7
12 or the EES, it is -- I am not trying to-- is that
13 okay?
14 MR. BROOKMAN: It is a good point. I
15 think it is a very good point.
16 MR. POWERS: So in other words everybody
17 knows what it means so if we could word it
18 properly and call this scope and negotiation phase
19 1 and then it would be circulators phase 2 and 11
20 Plus is out and the other -- I am just trying to -
21 -
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Would it be phase

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© 2014 202 1 1 and phase 2; would it be negotiation 1,
2 negotiation 2? What are you thinking?
3 MR. ADIN: I don't know if it matters.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I notice that you
5 are typing Alison.
6 MS. WILLIAM: I'm making Chuck's
7 recommendations

-- 8 MR. POWERS: Maybe we want to go back to
9 the start to finish that first.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry.
11 MR. POWERS: Then we can come back to --
12 MR. BROOKMAN: So we are going to --
13 MR. HANDZEL: I just think it is going to
14 be a second rulemaking with -- like right now this
15 is labeled commercial/industrial pumps working
16 group. You know that group could be called the
17 circulator group and swimming pool pumps working
18 group I would assume; wouldn't it Lucas?
19 MR. ADIN: Well we can make a
20 recommendation. I think it is whatever the ASRAC
21 decides.
22 MR HANDZEL: It depends on whatever the

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© 2014 203 1 ASRAC decides to authorize.
2 MR. ECKMAN: But I think we could make a
3 recommendation to ASRAC how we want to play it
4 out.
5 MR. ADIN: Right. I think it is
6 whatever the ASRAC decides.
7 MR. ECKMAN: As Doug said there is a lot
8 of capital we've invested in this already getting
9 to know each other. So--
10 MR. HUBER: I was going to say is it not
11 going to be the same people anyway.
12 MR. ECKMAN: Right.
13 MR. HANDZEL: Some people in this on the
14 manufacturing side if no skin in the game --
15 MR. ECKMAN: They are going to say --
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Just for the record that
17 was Tom and then Al and then Mark and then back to
18 Tom.
19 [Laughter]
20 MR. BROOKMAN: We are making progress
21 here. Before we move on so Alison do you want to
22 correct Slide number 3, scope of the negotiation

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© 2014 204 1 to clarify that we are talking about items in Lot
2 11, I am saying this for the record. And that is
3 the -- those are the pump types listed there that
4 is the centerpiece integral to the manufacturer's
5 proposal. The items in yellow are Lot 11 Plus and
6 they are being proposed to not be included with
7 the -- in this rule making. We have a special
8 provision for circulators which are also listed in
9 the Lot 11 Plus categories that they have included
10 in the term sheet. And then in addition pool
11 pumps -- dedicated pool pumps.
12 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Made a new column
13 on the left side.
14 [Discussion]
15 MR. BROOKMAN: So Louis is making the
16 comments.
17 MR. STARR: So I was just suggesting we
18 identify the pump names, whatever the pumps are
19 that are -- I can't read that far away. Just do
20 it that way.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's clarify however
22 we -- the items that are listed in green that we

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© 2014 205 1 do this with the ANSI and HI's nomenclature so it
2 is clear what contractor --
3 MS. WILLIAMS: They are over here.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: They are there. Okay.
5 MR. POWERS: Can we just create a new
6 column -- suggestion -- Chuck Powers again.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
8 MR. POWERS: New column on the left side
9 that says Lot 11, Lot 11, Lot 11, Lot 11, and
10 phase 2 you have it so move phase 2 over right or
11 second negotiation to the left and where it says
12 phase 2 put in yes and yes.
13 MR. HANDZEL: I was going to say hold on.
14 I don't agree with referencing Lot 11, that is a
15 European

-- 16 MR. POWERS: Okay.
17 MR. HANDZEL: I am sorry I just don't
18 agree with everybody else.
19 MR. POWERS: Well we are using it up
20 here.
21 MR. HANDZEL: I know that. That is why I
22 agreed to not calling it Lot 11 because I think --

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© 2014 206 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Just to be clear, Lot 11
2 has been a useful convenient term.
3 MR. HANDZEL: Right.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: A useful shorthand and
5 you noted from the start you want distinctive term
6 for this cluster of pumps. So we can find a way
7 to do that. That is not an issue.
8 So the proposal -- any additional
9 comments because I think it is well understood the
10 EE advocates made their proposal at 1:25 p.m.
11 Circulator pumps plus dedicated integrated pool
12 pumps as a part of a follow on negotiation is
13 second and that be done as soon as possible but
14 they include specifically be included in this rule
15 making group. And the working group recommended
16 to make a recommendation to ASRAC to as soon as
17 possible get this underway with a possible due
18 date of the end of this year, the end of 2014 if
19 possible. And then the manufacturing caucus their
20 caucus has voted to or agreed to support the NGO
21 proposal and support the Lot 11 list, not the Lot
22 11 Plus, those items enumerated in yellow; green

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© 2014 207 1 yes, yellow no. And the EE advocates have agreed
2 to the manufacturing proposal.
3 Louis.
4 MR. STARR: There was just one other
5 thing on this one that is yellow we are
6 comfortable about the redesign costs and
7 understand some of the basics; it would help me if
8 we maybe had some of the manufacturers step
9 through each one of the categories -- it will take
10 five or ten minutes but I would feel a little
11 better the significance of the redesign are on
12 those.
13 MR. HANDZEL: This is Mark Handzel from
14 Xylem. Louis I think we're -- we shared all of
15 that data with the surveys that we did with the
16 consultants this summer. I don't -- what we are
17 saying -- we are not done discussing that, that is
18 going to come up in their further analysis as we
19 move through the rest of this process.
20 MR. STARR: I was talking about the 11
21 Plus.
22 MR. HANDZEL: The 11 Plus?

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© 2014 208 1 MR. STARR: Yes. Just those guys. I
2 mean - 3 -
4 MR. CASE: I don't have any hard numbers
5 here but this is Greg Case with HI when you look
6 at something like redesigning a double suction
7 there is and Charlie can back me up on this, there
8 is multiple cores that have to go in that. So
9 your pattern cost goes way -- they go up
10 extremely.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Hold up that template.
12 MR. CASE: Can everyone see that?
13 MR. HANDZEL: He is an engineer.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: That is what he is talking
15 about.
16 MR. CASE: But there are multiple cores
17 that have to go into the impellers which -- and
18 casings which makes them much harder to design.
19 The design of the inlet, you are basically doing
20 what we tell nobody to do on a double suction
21 pump, that would put an elbow right at the inlet
22 of a pump and what are we doing we are putting an

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© 2014 209 1 elbow right on the inlet. So we have to very
2 carefully design that fluid to come up and around
3

--
4 MR. HANDZEL: Into the eye.
5 MR. CASE: -- into the eye and have it
6 be a uniform velocity going in. So the design
7 costs for that are staggering compared to an end
8 suction pump, at least double if not more. And
9 that is just for any design costs. The impeller
10 it is a very expensive tool to create.
11 MR. STARR: And just maybe if you can
12 step through one or two of the other Lot 11 Plus
13 or --
14 MS. WALTNER: In particular I was --
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg please go ahead.
16 MS. WALTNER: Sorry interested in the
17 radial split horizontal that we don't have energy
18 use information on that one. They are the
19 cheapest unit based on the HI data. Curious what
20 applications those are used for. Are those
21 substitutes and what -- I guess I would like to
22 learn a little bit more about that before I

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© 2014 210 1 eliminated them.
2 MR. POWERS: Greg Towsley?
3 MR. TOWSLEY: What is that?
4 MR. POWERS: Isn't that your CRs and
5 stuff like that that --
6 MR. TOWSLEY: Well, no CRs are under the
7 RS- V which is already up there in a VS8.
8 MR. CAPPELLINO: So I will throw in --
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino.
10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. So
11 radial split horizontal, a typically multi-stage
12 product and probably one of the primary
13 applications for that would be a boiler feed
14 application so they tend to be your higher
15 pressure and also your higher temperature
16 applications. They tend to be fairly -- again
17 fairly complex in terms of the geometries in terms
18 of the impeller and the diffuser design. So they
19 are kind of an intermediate between a highly
20 engineered product and a commodity product, kind
21 of in that middle tier from a kind of an
22 engineered kind of a product. We don't sell a lot

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© 2014 211 1 of them. But we are in that market space so I
2 don't know if that helped you at all.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
4 MR. HUBER: We were kicking around before
5 we were trying to fill in some of these holes and
6 we looked at it and we contact some folks and we
7 think that the horsepower range there is between
8 two and three horsepower on the RSH. It doesn't
9 use a lot of energy and there is not a lot of
10 quantity so we think that it is not worthwhile.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg, please?
12 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos,
13 just to add to what Charlie said but at the same
14 time overall design there are some that are down
15 at the smaller end too that we actually make as
16 well, some multi-stage, concept, maybe not for
17 boiler feed pump but it is used for pressure
18 boosting applications. And also they are very
19 small horsepowers as Al said.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.
21 MS. WALTNER: So would they be a
22 substitute for any of the Lot 11 pumps?

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© 2014 212 1 MR. HUBER: No they are more like a
2 bench product, what we term as a bench product.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?
4 MR. POWERS: The EU did a study and it
5 comes down to a footprint issue; right. So in
6 other words when they have a real estate problem
7 and there is tightness and different things they
8 use these. A lot of them are used in mining for
9 dewatering where they have a tight spot down in
10 the ground, a couple thousand feet, and they can
11 fit it in and they can get to it. The oil and gas
12 and refining uses quite a bit of them. This is a
13 study done by the EU group. And then they also
14 talked about the mining, the oil and the gas, the
15 power that Charlie brought up on the boiler feed;
16 those kind of applications.
17 MS. WALTNER: This is the EU study for
18 the eleven -- base study.
19 MR. POWERS: Yeah. There is a general
20 guide to rotodynamic pumps.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie, please.
22 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. I

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© 2014 213 1 hate to backtrack since we are making such great
2 progress but on the green lot of pumps. I am not
3 going to call them Lot 11. But the end suction
4 close couple I think we need a parenthetical
5 comment that that excludes the dedicated pool
6 pumps since they are going to be included in with
7 the circulators.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
9 MR. HUBER: I don't know if --
10 MR. BROOKMAN: It's --
11 MR. SDANO: I don't want them regulated
12 by two groups.
13 MR. ECKMAN: You don't want two
14 different standards to show up.
15 MR. ADIN: So just to clarify; whatever
16 regulatory language we come up with it will
17 eliminate that kind of thing where the definitions
18 for those categories would define where that
19 exclusion lies. So that is a good point you
20 raise. But we define it that way so --
21 MR. SDANO: Okay.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?

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© 2014 214 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
2 Just wanted to ask about VT-S or VS8, VSO and then
3 the VS 1 and 2 or VT, are there every any issues
4 in terms of are they ever competing for the same
5 end use application because you'd be regulating
6 one VT versus the other VT or one VS versus the
7 other VS; and are you losing any economies of
8 scale by doing a standard for one but not the
9 other?
10 MR. HANDZEL: Can you just repeat it one
11 more time -- I am sorry.
12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay I am looking at --
13 well okay I am looking at okay VS - VTS which is
14 in the green, phase 1 versus VT.
15 MR. HANDZEL: Right.
16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Or VSO versus VS1 or
17 VS2 we are saying we are going to regulate, we are
18 going to do a standard for VTS but not VT or VSO
19 versus VS1 and
20 VS2

--
21 MR. HANDZEL: Right. So these are two
22 different pump categories typically so these were

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© 2014 215 1 -- they were under six inch and these were six
2 inch and above.
3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.
4 MR. HANDZEL: So you know they are two
5 different categories.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Well all vertical turbine
7 are six inch and under so.
8 MR. HANDZEL: But these are primarily
9 residential bore hole pumps, the larger
10 residential bore hole pumps.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: But isn't it true that
12 for the under six inches some of the vertical
13 turbines would have the exact same bowls as the
14 vertical turbine submersibles?
15 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck Powers. It
16 depends but maybe not. The reason is if you had a
17 six inch casing there are VTPs that literally have
18 a six inch bowl diameter. So if you need to put
19 that in a casing theoretically the bowl might fit
20 but you have got to run the cable by it because
21 the motor is below and it won't work. It runs it
22 every day. So are there certain hydraulics

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© 2014 216 1 specific speed wise that to that, yes. The
2 biggest thing is when you get in the bore hole
3 you'll find VTPs on four inch, very few of them,
4 they are mainly used for the oil, gas and
5 cryogenics for very high pressure applications.
6 You won't see them where they are hanging them
7 1000 feet down with a discharge head on the
8 surface. Kinds of scale say look let's put a
9 submersible because submersibles go down to two
10 inch, two and a half inch, three inch in some of
11 the ranges that these guys make. But you won't --
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison, let me ask you
13 this. I want you to look at the items in three,
14 the pump types that are listed there on the far
15 right column are those pump types that the
16 nomenclature, the naming that is there, is that
17 sufficient. Or should there be other specific
18 listings there?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: I am not sure what you
20 are talking about.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Consistent with what was
22 originally the Lot 11 proposal from HI.

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© 2014 217 1 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean I just added --
2 MR. BROOKMAN: I just want to make sure
3 they are all there.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh, they are all here.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. That is what I
6 want to hear.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: I am confident.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I am going to
9 move to question now. We've heard first from the
10 energy efficiency advocacy caucus and they made a
11 proposal. Joanna?
12 MS. MAUER: I just had a couple more
13 questions.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
15 MS. MAUER: Just getting back to double
16 suction Al so if I understood you right you said
17 for the same application a double suction pump
18 would be more expensive than a in-line and so
19 there wouldn't be a risk that in-line and double
20 suction -- so why are people using them today?
21 MR. HUBER: Why are they?
22 MS. MAUER: Yes.

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© 2014 218 1 MR. HUBER: Mostly because of
2 reliability. They are considered robust.
3 MR. HANDZEL: Two bearings power
4 spinning it versus two bearings back here --
5 MR. HUBER: Yeah.
6 MR. HANDZEL: -- and leave off of it.
7 The double suction is going to run longer, last
8 longer.
9 MR. HUBER: But in the markets today
10 though, the municipal the markets today --
11 MR. BROOKMAN: So that was Al Huber.
12 Joanna, do you have another question?
13 MS. MAUER: My other question is just
14 getting back to our discussion this morning about
15 VS1 versus VS8. I think you said Mark that from
16 the manufacturer's perspective they're essentially
17 the same pump. So I just wanted to understand why
18 you are proposing to exclude the immersible?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. So I mean that is
20 actually a good clarification right because you
21 were saying this morning that the immersibles are
22 rolled up in there. I have it broken out on a

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© 2014 219 1 separate line that I put no next to because you
2 guys had previously said it was a VS1 and
3 therefore would be excluded as vertical turbine.
4 So I am unclear also if it should be included or
5 excluded.
6 MR. HANDZEL: I need somebody else to
7 comment because I don't have an answer --
8 MR. HUBER: Both of them are in the
9 yellow category.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Well no the R - the VS8
11 is in the green.
12 MR. HUBER: VS8.
13 [Dicussion]
14 MR. TOWSLEY: Repeat the question.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: So should the immersible
16 machine tool type pumps be covered under VS8 or
17 excluded under VS1 or just excluded on their own
18 merits.
19 MR. TOWSLEY: I will speak, Greg
20 Towsley, Grundfos. I will speak only on behalf of
21 us knowing that there are other manufacturers of
22 multi stage radial split vertical immersibles. In

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© 2014 220 1 some cases the components are the same. In others
2 they are not.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: The same as both VS8 and
4 VS1 or the same as --
5 MR. TOWSLEY: As the VS8.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: VS8.
7 MR. TOWSLEY: Those are used in
8 immersibles. Others because of specific hydraulics
9 may be a little bit different.
10 MR. CASE: So you would -- this is Greg
11 Case with HI. You would actually get the benefit
12 on some pumps and not even have them included. And
13 other pumps where they were different and they
14 were specifically for immersible application.
15 Because the VS8 is actually the one on a pedestal;
16 right?
17 MR. TOWSLEY: Yeah.
18 MR. CASE: So that is your CR series.
19 MR. TOWSLEY: Right. Exactly.
20 MR. CASE: Yeah. So you would actually
21 get the benefit on some of the VS1s that were
22 immersible and if you had components of VS8 in the

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© 2014 221 1 other standard so there would be --
2 MR. CAPPELLINO: Carryover.
3 MR. CASE: -- carryover.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: So I've lost track of
5 what is being proposed now.
6 MR. CASE: We are not proposing -- it is
7 a question.
8 [Discussion] So if you eliminated the
9 VS1 from the proposed rulemaking you will also get
10 some of the components in the VS8 since the VS8
11 was going to be upgraded some of the VS1
12 components on the immersible pumps would be
13 upgraded also. So without even regulating it you
14 would actually get some of those --
15 MS. WILLIAMS: And if we actually had
16 those in the data then it would be accounted for
17 because we don't know.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison tell me what --
19 translate this for me because I am still unclear?
20 MS. WILLIAMS: So I think sort of where
21 we are going is that the immersibles don't have to
22 be explicitly regulated but many of them would end

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© 2014 222 1 up with increased efficiency anyway because they
2 have the same hydraulic design as the RS-V or VS8
3 that are going to be included so there would be
4 spillover energy savings. I am adding the point
5 that they are suggesting that there are shipments
6 of those included in the RS-Vs so we may be
7 accounting for those spillover savings implicitly
8 because of the data that we have.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Well stated. Now, Louis
10 please.
11 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. I
12 talked to someone earlier this morning about what
13 is the difference between VS1 and VS8. So
14 essentially I can't remember if I am getting this
15 right. VS1 the water comes up through the center
16 and is expelled through the top on the right, like
17 the top of the head. And on the other one, the
18 VS8 it comes up the center but then goes out a
19 casing around the piston and comes back down. So
20

--
21 MR. HANDZEL: Well it is an in-line.
22 MR. STARR: It is a bottom up.

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© 2014 223 1 MR. HANDZEL: So it goes in one side,
2 goes up through the pump and comes back out the
3 other side.
4 MR. POWERS: I know this is tough to
5 see. Chuck Powers. This is a VS8. Okay. It is
6 an in-line product.
7 MR. HANDZEL: I showed Louis that on
8 break this morning.
9 MR. POWERS: -- that is internal to the
10 product but comes in one end -- they can put it in
11 within the piping without having to mount it on
12 the floor so to speak. And then --
13 MS. WILLIAMS: It is up here also.
14 MR. POWERS: Okay. There you go. Okay.
15 And then the VS1 is a vertical turbine where you
16 have the bowl assembly at the bottom, it is coming
17 up through the column and discharging out some
18 type of a discharge.
19 MR. STARR: So my understanding of why
20 you might want to buy a VS1 as opposed to a VS8.
21 The VS1 can be very long and tall and it is
22 sitting down in the pump you don't mind about the

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© 2014 224 1 vertical or the height of the thing. But the VS8
2 might be used something of in a mechanical
3 equipment room such that you might pump the
4 condensate out so it gives you the advantage of
5 being a little bit shorter. In a way it seems
6 like they are doing the same thing except one is
7 more compact. And so I kind of wonder -- it is a
8 little bit of a concern; it seems like they could
9 be swapped out -- one could be swapped out for the
10 other. But no so likely because of the physical
11 constraints of the room and so it wouldn't be --
12 you wouldn't have to worry so much about that
13 happening.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg.
15 MR. CASE: Greg Case, HI. I think the
16 difference in height you are going to see is the
17 motor not -- I mean the physical package of the
18 pump is not going to change. It is the motor
19 height -- having to have a very thin long motor
20 versus a commercial motor on top of it. So that
21 is the difference you would see in the length of
22 the pump and the size of the pump.

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© 2014 225 1 MR. STARR: About the cost between those
2 two.
3 MR. CASE: In motor cost versus --
4 MR. STARR: Well just the overall same
5 flow and head for different. I mean would someone
6 be switching it out to save a buck?
7 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I
8 think we are getting confused. I think you are
9 starting to talk about vertical submersibles now
10 aren't you?
11 MR. CASE: Well he brought in the
12 vertical submersibles on the long tall vertical
13 motor.
14 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Front page of your
15 handout.
16 [Discussion]
17 MR. POWERS: But that is not a vertical
18 -- that is not a VS1 immersible.
19 MR. CASE: No.
20 MR. POWERS: That is a VS1 turbine.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?
22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.

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© 2014 226 1 This conversation has been helpful but it does
2 sound kind of like what Louis -- it does sound
3 like they are kind of competitive products so I
4 guess my concern is if they are competitive for
5 the same application and especially I will say for
6 new buildings or new processes you are regulating
7 one product but not the other, there could be some
8 market implications there. So I guess I am a
9 little

-- 10 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug Potts wants to
11 respond. Doug?
12 MR. POTTS: Well so I am not a pump
13 manufacturer but what I understand is the first
14 type the VS1, make sure I am -- right. So that --
15 my understanding is that a key distinction between
16 the two types of pumps is one is suspended in the
17 water whether it be a well, a clear well, it is
18 suspended in the product that you are pumping. And
19 the other one is flanged. It is in a pipeline.
20 [Discussion]
21 MR. POTTS: Yeah. Right but it wouldn't
22 be the same kind of stand. And I can't imagine

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© 2014 227 1 that at least in my world is the two competitors
2 switching them. One is suspended in the fluid.
3 The other one is -- it has an open intake. The
4 other one has flanges on both ends and inserted in
5 a horizontal running pipe.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg do you want to add
7 on.
8 MR. CASE: I'd just agree. Nodding
9 along.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So I am going to
11 move this question now. We've had and about 20
12 minutes ago in considerable detail listed the two
13 proposals. We had a proposal from the efficiency
14 advocates caucus and Tom indicated he consulted
15 with his caucus members. We had a proposal from
16 the manufacturers' caucus. And Al offered to me
17 that he consulted with his caucus members. So now
18 I am going to ask for a vote, what you agreed,
19 with the proposal as is, both aspects of that
20 proposal.
21 MS. MAUER: Joanna. May we have a two
22 minute caucus.

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© 2014 228 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. We can have a five
2 minute caucus.
3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Question Doug?
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve.
5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again this is more of a
6 process. Again for this process there was a
7 public announcement of people for this working
8 group and you now there was an announcement in the
9 Federal Register, people had time to apply, a
10 decision was made. Please refresh my memory was
11 that about a two or three month process? RFI to
12 deciding about who was on the committee?
13 MR. ADIN: I wouldn't count the time
14 between the RFI and the meeting.
15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The request for members
16 and the decision of who was on the working group;
17 how much time did that take?
18 MR. ADIN: I think that was somewhere in
19 the neighborhood of two months. But it wouldn't
20 necessarily have to take that long in this case. I
21 mean we have a much better idea of --
22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.

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© 2014 229 1 MR. ADIN: -- what is actually.
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Again I just wanted in
3 terms of process I just wanted to add that -- put
4 that on the table here too.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you very
7 much.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: So Joanna you wanted a
9 caucus. Okay. So let's just take five minutes
10 and do you all want to meet out there?
11 And I don't think the manufacturers need
12 a caucus. So you can stand up and stretch.
13 (WHEREUPON, a brief recess was
14 taken for a caucus.)
15 MR. BROOKMAN: We are now going to vote.
16 As I said before we broke for caucus and I am
17 terming this the Joint Proposal, that includes the
18 proposal from the energy efficiency advocacy
19 caucus and the manufacturers' caucus. I detailed
20 that in considerable length before. I think we
21 know what is included in it. And I am going to
22 ask for all those in favor of accepting this joint

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© 2014 230 1 -- Lucas?
2 MR. ADIN: There were a couple of points
3 I wanted to make before we dive right into this
4 that I think are important for everyone to
5 understand at the outset.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
7 MR. ADIN: So we can make a
8 recommendation to ASRAC for the time line that we
9 want to pursue for this rule making. But I can't
10 make a guarantee about DOE's ability to provide
11 analytical support. So it is possible that we may
12 not be able to support a time line that
13 aggressive.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: The 12-31-14 timeline?
15 MR. ADIN: Yes.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Correct.
17 MR. ADIN: I just want everyone to
18 understand that that possibility exists.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: I think the thrust of
20 Tom's proposal was we want to proceed with this
21 and we would love to see it get done by this time
22 table, however, we understand.

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© 2014 231 1 MR. ADIN: As long as people don't take
2 my vote as a being a promise that I -- [Laughter.]
3 MS. WILLIAMS: I have a question on that
4 because I am taking notes up here that will be
5 like part of the record that you guys vote on. So
6 should we modify this target date.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Alison suggested
8 something like subject to DOE availability or
9 subject to DOE capacity.
10 MR. FERNSTROM: Well this is Gary. Let
11 me just say that we are making a recommendation
12 here and I don't think we have to make it any
13 easier for DOE. I think the recommendation ought
14 to stand the way it is. We recognize --
15 MR. BROOKMAN: It is a reality.
16 MR. FERNSTROM: -- Lucas's comment that
17

-- 18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
19 MR. FERNSTROM: -- he can't commit DOE
20 but that shouldn't be changing our expectation and
21 hope here.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Did you say two things?

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© 2014 232 1 MR. ADIN: No, that -- oh there is
2 another thing.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
4 MR. ADIN: That was the end of that
5 thing. I just wanted to make sure that we are
6 clear about our position on that.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
8 MR. ADIN: The other thing was we had
9 had some previous discussion about what the
10 compliance period might be for a follow on. And
11 our view anyway is that from a legal prospective
12 there is -- EPCA is pretty clear that it is a five
13 year compliance period from publication of final
14 rule. So if we do this follow on rule and we
15 publish a rule with standards they would have five
16 years to comply --
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
18 MR. ADIN: -- from the date of that
19 rule.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
21 MR. ADIN: -- we would not necessarily
22 be able to negotiate that aspect.

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© 2014 233 1 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary, Lucas. But
2 couldn't a working group recommend something
3 different? You are just advising us that even if
4 we recommended it DOE may have limited
5 flexibility?
6 MS. KOHL: Well but I mean. This is
7 Betsy Kohl, DOE. If you have a whole
8 recommendation keyed on something other than five
9 years and that is legally impermissible why would
10 you do that?
11 MR. FERNSTROM: Well, I think one of the
12 issues is assuring --
13 MS. KOHL: All the analysis is also
14 keyed on the five -- we can't key an analysis off
15 of something other than five years.
16 MR. FERNSTROM: I think one of the
17 issues is assuring that manufacturers have time to
18 do their development, adjust their production, and
19 not create an imbalanced playing field. And if
20 during the process we agree that more time might
21 be merited we can recommend that I presume.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.

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© 2014 234 1 MR. HUBER: You can recommend it, they
2 won't do it.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis I think we are
4 going to a vote.
5 MR. ADIN: So actually Meg had something
6

--
7 MR. FERNSTROM: But I didn't hear a
8 response? So you are basically saying you don't
9

-- 10 MS. KOHL: I don't have anything else to
11 say other than what I said before. I mean EPCA
12 decided that that time period is five years. So I
13 mean I don't understand, we can do an analysis to
14 support whatever this group would come up with
15 that is different than five years. That would be
16 a waste of resources.
17 MS. FERNSTROM: So you feel you are
18 locked into five years period?
19 MS. KOHL: Yes.
20 MR. FERNSTROM: Thank you.
21 MR. ADIN: So we -- so Meg did have --
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Meg, go ahead.

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© 2014 235 1 MS. WALTNER: Just a follow up question
2

-- 3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louder.
4 MS. WALTNER: I brought this up before
5 in our earlier meetings but it has been hashed and
6 probably got before the division basically --
7 MS. KOHL: No we are not in the direct
8 final rule with EPCA so we don't have that kind of
9

-- 10 MS. WALTNER: But if you had --
11 MS. KOHL: This is a totally different
12 statutory construct, we are not under (p)(4).
13 MR. WALTNER: So that isn't --
14 MS. KOHL: No we are not doing a direct
15 final ruling in this, this is a negotiated
16 rulemaking process.
17 MS. WALTNER: But if you got petitions
18 that satisfied the provision of the direct final
19 rule

-- 20 MS. KOHL: Potentially.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now I am moving
22 the question.

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© 2014 236 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Doug.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: No I am moving the
3 question.
4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Excuse me Doug, I don't
5 think that is fair. I -- we are just seeing this
6 right now as a fully vetted product. I think that
7 members of this committee should, Steven
8 Rosenstock, yes that people should be allowed to
9 make amendments to this if they want to.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Try and make your
11 amendment.
12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. Sorry.
13 Based on an earlier conversation I -- my amendment
14 would be to move a Lot 11 Plus VT into the covered
15 products because of economies of scale, the
16 possible same application and competitive, their
17 competitive qualities.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That is my amendment.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: So you are proposing that
21 -- you, Steve Rosenstock, you are making a
22 proposal that is different from the proposal from

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© 2014 237 1 the two major --
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I am amending it, yes,
3 moving VT from the not covered to the covered.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: VT. So I guess we should
5 vote on Steve Rosenstock's proposal first because
6 that is different than the other proposal.
7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: An amendment to the
8 proposal, yes.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve's amendment to the
10 proposal. All those in favor of Steve
11 Rosenstock's amendment to this proposal signify by
12 raising their hands.
13 We have one, two, we have more than
14 three.
15 MR. STARR: I think a discussion would
16 help. There was some -- when we went out there and
17 met there was some things that we talked about and
18 I think we have solution but maybe Meg actually
19 was I was trying to set her up for that discussion
20 about -- that wasn't a legal question. I was
21 hoping

--
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah. I am very eager to

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© 2014 238 1 get this done as perhaps you can tell. Meg go you
2 want to go ahead and try it.
3 MS. WALTNER: Yes so my perspective on
4 vertical turbine was if it doesn't add to the
5 incremental analysis barrier at this point for
6 consultants then could we look at the LCC analysis
7 for the next meeting and use that as the point
8 where we actually have some data. So that was my
9 thinking in terms of being --
10 MR. BROOKNER: So now you've made your
11 statement. Steve Rosenstock has proposed an
12 amendment. We voted on the amendment. There were
13 about five votes yes which means three votes
14 against derails the consensus. That is this group
15 did not support your amendment, Steve.
16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Understood.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Now we are going to vote
18 on the proposal on the table.
19 MS. WALTNER: Technically --
20 MR. BROOKMAN: We -- I am going with it
21

--
22 MS. WALTNER: Don't we actually need the

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© 2014 239 1 no votes?
2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we did. Yes we did.
3 [Discussion]
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you want to offer the
5 no votes?
6 [Group response, yes]
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's call for the
8 no votes. All those in favor of defeating Steve
9 Rosenstock's proposal -- [Laughter]
10 MR. BROOKMAN: All those voting against
11 the proposal -- the amendment on the table which
12 is to move VT from not covered to covered, all
13 those against that raise your hands.
14 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
15 eight against.
16 Okay. Now we are going to -- I am
17 moving the larger question.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Were there five yes or
19 were there approximately five --
20 MR. BROOKMAN: There are -- there are 16
21 members present. And eight --
22 MS. WILLIAMS: That is only 13.

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© 2014 240 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
2 I saw five yeses when -- at the end of the yes
3 vote.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Did three people abstain.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes but --
6 MS. WILLIAMS: No one is going to admit
7 to abstaining?
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Did we have abstentions?
9 MR. LIN: I abstained.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: If you didn't vote yes or
11 no, you abstain.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, we have at least one
13 abstention.
14 MR. ECKMAN: If you are here you are
15 voting one way or another or abstaining.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now the joint
17 proposal which includes the energy efficiency
18 advocates proposal and the manufacturers'
19 proposal; all those that are in favor of accepting
20 that as detailed previously and on the slides
21 please signify --
22 MR. ECKMAN: Can we vote on Meg's

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© 2014 241 1 proposal? She had that -- did you make that as an
2 official proposal?
3 MR. BROOKMAN: No that is the same as
4 what Steve was saying?
5 MS. WALTNER: I did not make a proposal.
6 MR. ECKMAN: Hers wasn't -- okay, just
7 basically referring to --
8 MS. WALTNER: I don't have a separate
9 proposal.
10 MR. ECKMAN: Okay.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So now we are
12 moving the question --
13 MR. ECKMAN: Now we can --
14 MR. BROOKMAN: -- all those in favor of
15 accepting this joint proposal please signify by
16 raising your hand.
17 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
18 eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen,
19 fourteen, fifteen for the proposal.
20 All those opposed?
21 None opposed.
22 All those abstaining?

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© 2014 242 1 One abstention.
2 So now we have done it. Congratulations.
3 [Applause]
4 MR. BROOKMAN: After due consideration
5 now Gary Fernstrom?
6 MR. FERNSTROM: So this is Gary. I'd
7 just like to say this has been a long time coming.
8 And I very much appreciate everybody's spirit of
9 cooperation and compromise.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you Gary.
11 MR. POTTS: Thank you.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: And I appreciate the
13 direct conversation and the spirit of exchange
14 that we have witnessed here.
15 MR. POTTS: We appreciate that Gary is
16 going to treat us all to a round of beers tonight.
17 [Laughter]
18 MR. ECKMAN: That must be what sold it.
19 MR. HUBER: Very fine.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh one other thing that
21 is on the exclusions list that we didn't close out
22 last time was sanitary pumps. And I know that

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© 2014 243 1 Greg provided us with information to DOE. That
2 was that item in the red that was considered a
3 possible exclusion but we didn't have all the
4 information we thought we needed at that time. So
5 do you have that information Alison or --
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. Hold on. Sorry.
7 MR. POWERS: She is going to take a
8 class in PowerPoint before the next meeting.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: Hey -- [Laughter]
10 MR. ECKMAN: Careful she will make you
11 do it.
12 MR. POWERS: Then you will really see
13 ugly.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: This is the -- what Greg
15 sent on the sanitary pumps definitions.
16 MR. CASE: And I must say that I didn't
17 craft this. This is Mr. Towsley's work. I just
18 got it approved --
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison read it into the
20 record.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Oh my. The whole thing?
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.

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© 2014 244 1 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Hygienic or
2 sanitary pumps are typically used in food
3 processing and pharmaceutical applications. They
4 are designed with special parameters with specific
5 materials and surface finish to a variety of
6 national and international rules and regulations
7 that will minimize biological growth inside the
8 pump to protect public health. These design
9 parameters and materials may result in lower
10 efficiencies than for standard water pumps.
11 Certifications for hygienic or sanitary products
12 include but are not limited to 3A sanitary
13 standards, European Hygienic Equipment Design
14 Group Recommendations, and Qualified Hygienic
15 Design.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: That's it?
17 MS. WILLIAMS: That is it.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: And so -- yes please
19 Greg?
20 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. The
21 offer of this; that was a starting point. It may
22 or may not meet EU definition rules. So --

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© 2014 245 1 MS. WILLIAMS: All of these that we have
2 above I think it has been determined that DOE will
3 review and work on them later.
4 MR. ADIN: Right.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: So the intent -- I think
6 people can vote on the intent of your definition.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas, add on?
8 MR. ADIN: I don't -- I think Alison
9 captured it. I think we were just trying to get a
10 sense of conceptually what is it we're dealing
11 with and at least then we can craft it into a
12 regulatory provision --
13 MR. BROOKMAN: And just to confirm this
14 was in part on the exclusions list because they
15 are expensive and they're --
16 MR. HANDZEL: They are not designed with
17 efficiency.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: They are not designed
19 with efficiency in mind. And furthermore they are
20 not a part of the original proposal from HI.
21 Okay. So we do -- we should though act
22 as a working group to exclude sanitary pumps if

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© 2014 246 1 that is what you wish to do?
2 Steve Rosenstock?
3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
4 Just a quick question. Estimated number
5 shipments, typical horsepower?
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Any idea?
8 MR. CASE: There has been no data
9 collected
10

--
11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What?
12 MR. CASE: There has been no data
13 collected on any of this.
14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: So they are so small that
16 there is no data?
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. That is fine.
18 MR. HANDZEL: It is another one of those
19 niche markets -- this is Mark speaking that I
20 don't think any -- none of us are significantly in
21 it. Put it on the table.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison do you have any

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© 2014 247 1 thoughts on sanitary pumps?
2 MS. WILLIAMS: I do not.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?
4 MS. MAUER: I just -- what is the reason
5 why someone wouldn't use a sanitary pump in some
6 other clean water --
7 MR. HUBER: It costs you about four
8 times the price.
9 MR. HANDZEL: It is food grade stainless
10 steel and -- [Discussion]
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber says they are
12 much more expensive.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Greg has a comment.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg?
15 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos. I
16 was just going to say just design, higher cost to
17 run, material 304 316 stainless steel in every one
18 of them, motor is going to be special because
19 there is wash down duty. It is just expensive.
20 Polished interior. Not as efficient as a regular -
21 -
22 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am about to move the

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© 2014 248 1 question about whether we wish to exclude sanitary
2 pumps from coverage in this working group
3 proceeding. Are we comfortable doing that?
4 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. I am
5 comfortable. The initial idea for a definition
6 seems very vague to me. But that would be my only
7 concern. Just -- define in such a way that it is
8 very specific to what we are trying to --
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucas?
10 MR. ADIN: I think -- I understand your
11 question and we would have the same concerns when
12 we are trying to -- when we attempted to craft
13 some kind of definition such that it is very clear
14 which characteristics these have, how they are
15 distinguished from these other types. It sounds
16 like one of them is the standards to which they
17 have to be certified; so in the same way as the
18 fire pumps. It sounds like -- I don't know if any
19 of the manufacturers here can comment. Are those
20 particular standards for the specific industry
21 protocols?
22 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.

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© 2014 249 1 Those are the three primary global sanitary or
2 hygienic standards that are out there that
3 specifically tell you how the pump shall be done
4 so as not to develop cracks and crevices that will
5 hold bacteria so that when you eat your -- drink
6 your milk you are not going to be getting
7 something you don't want. There are very specific
8 design things in those specifications. Everybody
9 and probably your friend somewhere here in D.C. at
10 USDA will tell you even more. But they require a
11 3A pump for something in that type of --
12 MR. ADIN: Okay.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: But 3A but you are just
14 using 3A standards would not be sufficient?
15 MR. TOWSLEY: No that would be -- in the
16 U.S. that would be sufficient.
17 MR. HANDZEL: So we tried to give you
18 all the ones around the world.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Because it says not
20 limited to. So --
21 MR. TOWSLEY: There may be jurisdictions
22 or applications and not knowing food industry that

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© 2014 250 1 well but may not say 3A, it may state food grade
2 type or something like that referencing something
3 like this or even referencing your --
4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Is that the
5 organization -- I am sorry Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
6 3A is that the organization name or the --
7 MR. TOWSLEY: 3A, 3-A.org or something
8 like that.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?
10 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is --
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie --
12 MR. CAPPELLINO: - the design, those
13 standards when they got around to doing the
14 definitions. They have more time now and -- to do
15 -- they can look at looking into those standards
16 to see exactly if there is something in there that
17

-- 18 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna. And if all
19 of the sanitary pumps in the U.S. are certified to
20 3A then that seems actually pretty straight
21 forward.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Again I just know --

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© 2014 251 1 MR. CASE: I ran this by three other
2 manufacturers, they all said that should cover us
3 as far as what makes us different than regular
4 pumps.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: 3A being the description.
6 MR. CASE: Yes. 3A being the and those
7 are the standards they comply to.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Charlie I thought
9 you were looking it up?
10 MR. CAPPELLINO: I am. It is a -- this
11 is Charlie Cappellino. I just typed in 3A and it
12 is a USDA guideline for sanitary design and
13 fabrication of dairy processing equipment.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Excellent.
15 MR. ADIN: It is a federal guideline; is
16 that what it is?
17 MR. CAPPELLINO: It says USDA. It says
18 USDA agricultural marketing service; USDA
19 guidelines for sanitary design and fabrication of
20 dairy processing equipment.
21 MR. ADIN: In any case we'll do the
22 background research and figure out whatever it is.

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© 2014 252 1 We need to ask more questions.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to clarify as I
3 said before sanitary pumps are one of the items
4 that was tentatively included in red that we
5 thought would be - - it is on page 3 of your Power
6 Point sheet. We have gone through all of these
7 other items in red which have been excluded. I am
8 now going to move the question whether you wish to
9 exclude sanitary pumps from the scope this working
10 group meeting.
11 All those in favor of excluding sanitary
12 pumps from this scope of this working group please
13 signify by raising your hands.
14 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
15 eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.
16 Thank you. We have unanimity throughout
17 excluding sanitary pumps.
18 We are doing better.
19 [Applause.]
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Now I asked Lucas
21 at the break because I haven't had a chance to
22 read all the way through this packet yet. The

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© 2014 253 1 Department has done some work on clean water
2 definition as well. Maybe we should go there next.
3 MR. ADIN: Right. So I will clarify a
4 little bit. We are not proposing a specific
5 definition to vote on because like some of these
6 other things the crafting of regulatory language
7 comes with other consideration so we can't do it
8 completely necessarily in this group. So you know
9 there are legal aspects and other people in our
10 department have to weigh in on it. So what I
11 think really what we are trying to do is, like
12 with those other types to be excluded, we are
13 trying to evaluate conceptually what does it mean
14 to be a clean water pump. If there are changes we
15 have to make to the wording to accomplish that in
16 regulation, they will do it. And that will be
17 proposed through a test procedure notice. After
18 they release that mission we will try and do it as
19 soon as possible -- through the test procedure
20 rule making. That action is going on while we're
21 still in the process of negotiating -- so that you
22 will all have a chance to see what is proposed to

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© 2014 254 1 be in the actual regulation.
2 At least for today's purposes we are
3 talking about conceptually what is a clean water
4 pump. And so what we did is I put up there --
5 just at least based on what we talked about so far
6 -- what a clean water pump is and then the
7 exclusions that we talked about.
8 Now another way to potentially -- well
9 let me step back a little bit. Where it says pump
10 is designed for use in pumping clean water. I put
11 that in italics because that is really kind of the
12 key distinguishing characteristic for -- well
13 distinguishing set of characteristics -- that
14 separates clean water pumps from potentially other
15 types of pumps. So what you are trying to say is
16 it has its own characteristics that make it suited
17 for this clean water application. And I think the
18 one thing we really want to make sure we have
19 clear is; is it necessary to make any other
20 clarifications in the wording that would help
21 identify a clean water pump compared with a pump
22 that is potentially designed for use in non-clean

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© 2014 255 1 water application? And we haven't considered
2 these other exceptions. So is it more appropriate
3 to say designed for use in clean water or pumping
4 clean water only or conversely a pump that is not
5 designed for use in pumping liquids other than
6 clean water because those things obviously are
7 such a different --- I am not sure that. Does
8 that make sense?
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. And so you --
10 MR. ADIN: It is a starting point but I
11 think

-- 12 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. And you are
13 proposing that this gets resolved during the test
14 procedure consideration?
15 MR. ADIN: No I think we want to get
16 some resolution on the conceptual thing while we
17 are here.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
19 MR. ADIN: And then to the extent DOE
20 needs to make some specific changes to the wording
21 whether it is to that part of the top or the
22 exceptions. For example in the exceptions list we

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© 2014 256 1 have a pump designed and --. We might have to
2 word that differently.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
4 MR. ADIN: From a legal standpoint it is
5 solid and you can't put that in the regs.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie Cappellino?
7 MR. CAPPELLINO: Charlie Cappellino. The
8 only other question I had is do they have a list
9 of parameters at one point --
10 MR. ADIN: Yep.
11 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- that would be in
12 addition to this definition --
13 MR. ADIN: Right. So the way this would
14 work -- which parameters do you mean? Do you mean
15 like the trim --
16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Horsepower --
17 MR. ADIN: All that?
18 MR. CAPPELLINO: Horsepower, temperature
19 range.
20 MR. ADIN: Right. So those things would
21 actually be -- so this defines the -- what
22 constitutes the pump. And then we have this table

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© 2014 257 1 of standards that has all types that we are
2 looking at and it would say prospectively
3 standards for clean water -- rotodynamic clean
4 water pumps, then all these horsepower blah, blah,
5 blah. So that would be in the standard portion.
6 So you have this definition for what constitutes a
7 clean water pump and then here are the standards
8 that are applicable to pumps that are of 1/25
9 horsepower and no greater than ten -- Right. And
10 that is typically the way we do it for a standard
11

-- 12 MR. CAPPILLINO: That is fine. I just
13 wanted to make sure we --
14 MR. ADIN: Yes. We --
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Al -- Al Huber?
16 MR. HUBER: I assume that you want to
17 define a fire pump with a UL/FM certification. You
18 just left that out for the time being.
19 MR. ADIN: Oh yeah. I am sorry. I
20 didn't include that in the slides. But --
21 MR. HUBER: The only reason I asked is
22 because you put API610 and ISO1307 --

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© 2014 258 1 MR. ADIN: Right. The qualifiers.
2 MR. HUBER: The qualifiers.
3 MR. ADIN: That is a good point. There
4 is probably -- I didn't include a slide that shows
5 this on here but we have a separate definition for
6 fire pump. The term fire pump would mean pump as
7 defined.
8 MR. HUBER: Okay.
9 MR. ADIN: And the same for self-priming
10 pump. You know you could have a definition for
11 nuclear pump that just says what it says up there.
12 MR. HUBER: Okay.
13 MR. ADIN: I just put it right in there.
14 MR. HUBER: That is okay.
15 MR. ADIN: Yeah.
16 MR. HUBER: I am fine with it.
17 MR. ADIN: Right.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg?
19 MR. CASE: Based on our last
20 conversation did we need to add in sanitary pump
21 to the bottom of this?
22 MR. ADIN: Yep.

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© 2014 259 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?
2 MR. POWERS: Yeah, also I guess you need
3 the 10 CFR 50 for section 3 right to be clear. And
4 the ASME pressure booster for the nuclear?
5 MR. ADIN: Oh, well my understanding was
6 that 10 CFR 50 requires pumps to comply with that
7 ASME pressure vessel code.
8 MR. POWERS: Okay. But you have
9 pressure vessel requirements that say section 3
10 won't have -- I have seen it both ways.
11 MR. ADIN: Okay.
12 MR. POWERS: You can look at it but it
13 might be worthwhile to check it.
14 MR. ADIN: No I mean that's something we
15 have to deal with.
16 MR. POWERS: And the pumps for -- I
17 think we have those specs listed, you guys just
18 have to figure out how you want to do that?
19 MR. ADIN: Yes. I actually I spent a
20 fair amount of time researching those and the list
21 you gave me was helpful but there are more. Also
22 we want to make sure we are -- [Discussion]

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© 2014 260 1 MR. ADIN: And so if I told you there
2 would be a categorical way to express that --
3 MR. POWERS: Right. One more question.
4 If we are going to list the others, doesn't it
5 make sense to list positive displacement and waste
6 water or leave that out.
7 MR. ADIN: I think we used -- in our
8 scope, I think Chuck's expression, how do you
9 express that?
10 MR. POWERS: Yeah.
11 MR. ADIN: The language in and what we
12 would probably do is in the standard we'd say
13 these standards apply to rotodynamic water pumps,
14 then list the parameters.
15 MR. POWERS: Right. Right. So what you
16 are trying to say if I understand you are saying
17 really this sheet definition goes along with one
18 or two other sheets. You spell out the parameters
19 and you say this -- so the bottom line if anybody
20 were to read off these sheets --
21 MR. ADIN: Right
22 MR POWERS: -- it clearly says there

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© 2014 261 1 won't be any ambiguity or anybody sneaks something
2 in sideways or something.
3 MR. ADIN: Right. So you look at the
4 standards and say okay my pump is one of these
5 types.
6 MR. POWERS: Right.
7 MR. ADIN: It is rotodynamic. It is
8 within all these parameters. Oh is it a clean
9 water pump. Then you look at this.
10 MR. POWERS: Right.
11 MR. ADIN: Then you say okay, it is a
12 clean water pump. Is it -- but is it a nuclear
13 pump that's out.
14 MR. POWERS: Then also you look at this I
15 guess.
16 MR. ADIN: This is an implementation of
17 that, yes.
18 MR. POWERS: So then in that case the
19 axial type displacement of all these others --
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah we don't have to --
21 in the -- like the standards would have you know
22 standards for each of these ones in green and so

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© 2014 262 1 if you had an axial flow pump there just wouldn't
2 be a standard for it.
3 MR. ADIN: I think maybe Chuck's
4 question is do we need to determine how to define
5 what it shows in this --
6 MS. WILLIAMS: If there is not a table
7 for it then --
8 MR. ADIN: Oh yeah if it is not in the
9 table
10

--
11 MR. POWERS: Yeah.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: It is not there.
13 MR. POWERS: Right.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: And so -- and I noticed
16 because I didn't notice it at first that is page 5
17 there and on page 6 you are offering an actual
18 definition of it? Lucas?
19 MR. ADIN: Right. So on the next slide
20 actually we've already talked about this.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
22 MR. ADIN: A reasonable extent.

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© 2014 263 1 MR. BROOKMAN: You mean during the
2 previous meeting. Right. Definitely we talked
3 about this at considerable length.
4 MR. ADIN: The bigger idea really is in
5 defining what constitutes a clean water pump --
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
7 MR. ADIN: -- what is the universe of
8 pumps that are designed in our application that
9 don't have special features that are intended for
10 pumping other things. So how do we reasonably
11 exclude those things without -- how do we keep
12 from excluding things we don't need to exclude?
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. How do you stop
14 an escape hatch for those that might wish to claim
15 that they are not clean water?
16 MR. ADIN: Yeah when it comes down to --
17 we can -- people in this room agree what a clean
18 water pump is for and I don't think we have any
19 question about that but --
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
21 MR. ADIN: -- when the day comes when a
22 standard applies to all these things, on a pump

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© 2014 264 1 sitting on the shelf and, on what basis do we --
2 does someone decide whether that pump is subject
3 to standards and otherwise meets all the criteria;
4 it is one of the types that otherwise seems to be
5 clean water applications. What is the
6 characteristic?
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?
8 MR. CAPPELLLNO: Charlie Cappellino. So
9 in that event that somebody tries to get something
10 excluded.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
12 MR. CAPPELLINO: And it wasn't clear
13 within the actual legislature, the rules, --
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
15 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- are the meeting
16 minutes, that they then be used to clarify a point
17 that may not be clear in the rules themselves, the
18 meeting minutes of this discussion or not.
19 MR. ADIN: Well I am sure that are
20 interpretations. Let me -- [Discussion]
21 MS. KOHL: Well I mean it just depends
22 on the facts of the specific enforcement case. I

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© 2014 265 1 mean I don't know that our enforcement board would
2 want to rely on this --
3 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah.
4 MS. KOHL: I mean, that is right. We
5 are trying to --
6 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- past practices.
7 MS. KOHL: We don't have past practice.
8 MR. ADIN: Yeah, I am not aware that it
9 has ever been done that way.
10 MR. CAPPELLINO: That is fine.
11 MR. ADIN: So it -- there are always
12 questions about what was intended during the rule
13 making process.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Right.
15 MR. ADIN: But again like that is -- and
16 we have to rely on that --
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Paul Lin.
18 MR. LIN: Paul Lin from Regal Beloit.
19 Just since we've added the swimming pool pumps I
20 just want to maybe ask again the specific gravity
21 that was mentioned on that clean water definition
22 that would not exclude chlorinated water or salt

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© 2014 266 1 water type pool water; correct.
2 MR. HUBER: No.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber says no.
4 MR. HUBER: It wasn't excluded.
5 MR. LIN: Just asking from an electrical
6 engineering.
7 [Laughter]
8 MR. BROOKMAN: 25 milligrams per cubic
9 meter free solid content; dissolved content 50
10 milligrams per cubic meter. Okay. Louis Starr?
11 MR. STARR: So I have a question. If
12 you have most building systems are designed if you
13 put glycol in there you are going to get a minus
14 10 C -- like 20 degrees F is that right? Something
15 like that. Anyway you would put enough glycol in
16 there that you would be more around zero or a
17 little bit less for protecting your water systems.
18 So does that mean -- does that have any
19 ramifications on those kind of pumps or how does
20 that -- because then it is not really clean water
21 anymore yet you are using to pump buildings around
22 they think it is clean water?

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© 2014 267 1 MR. BROOKMAN: I thought -- I may have
2 misunderstood you. I thought this reading of this
3 definition made that possible. Maybe I
4 misunderstood you.
5 MR. LIN: It says prevent water from
6 freezing at a minimum of minus 10.
7 MR. HUBER: And it says disregarding any
8 additives.
9 MR. LIN: Oh. Okay.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Up to a minimum of minus
11 10.
12 MR. HUBER: I think you are okay.
13 MR. POTTS: So if it is colder than that
14 you would need more additives and that is not a
15 clean water pump anymore; am I understanding --?
16 MR. HUBER: Probably not --
17 MR. BROOKMAN: It is minus 10 C.
18 So this is -- this was an important
19 point of discussion at our last meeting. The
20 manufacturing caucus representatives were very
21 clear that clean water definition the intent and
22 the definition itself in some form would be very,

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© 2014 268 1 very helpful to them as they reach out to their
2 various members and also in other activities. So
3 Lucas so as a next step -- what is the next step
4 on these clean water definition, these two pages?
5 Is there one at this point?
6 MR. ADIN: Well I mean I don't know that
7

-- 8 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie I am coming back to
9 you.
10 MR. ADIN: -- to be real honest I don't
11 know that these particular things keep us from
12 proceeding with the analysis that we need to do.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Uh-huh.
14 MR. ADIN: I mean we've voted on scope
15 at least for our purposes we understand what it
16 is.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yep.
18 MR. ADIN: This really gets to more how
19 do we make regulation air tight.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
21 MR. ADIN: And maybe that is more for
22 DOE to try to figure out. Now that we know what

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© 2014 269 1 the exceptions are we can go and try and craft
2 something and like I said I don't think it is the
3 task of this committee to decide -- to vote on
4 every single piece of regulatory wording.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. Okay.
6 MR. ADIN: Then we would have an awfully
7 long negotiation. So --
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Arnie you are
9 next?
10 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. I was
11 on the webinar when this discussion occurred. And
12 then I was skeptical about the 0.25 kilograms per
13 cubic meter; and when this subject came up related
14 on 40.6 as defining the water that would be
15 acceptable to test with we used 1050 kilograms per
16 cubic meter which would allow salt water to be
17 tested, to be used as the test media on pumps. And
18 that math doesn't compare to the 0.25 kilograms
19 per cubic meter. So and I am fine with that
20 definition. Of course we were defining clear
21 water for tests; you have got a definition for
22 clean water for the pump as it's used. But I know

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© 2014 270 1 that there was a discussion at the time that that
2 felt like that would include salt water on the
3 group; was it not?
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Definitely -- no this
5 was meant to be inclusive of salt water I believe.
6 MR. SDANO: I think a cubic meter of
7 water weighs 1000 kilograms and it is nowhere near
8 3% in the salt water ones.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: So maybe we need to get
10 some additional --
11 UNIDENTIFEID PERSON: Dissolved salt
12 content of kilograms per cubic meters; that
13 doesn't cover it?
14 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I don't think so.
15 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That would be two
16 five.
17 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That would be five
18 grams per cubic meter; that would be like --
19 MR. BROOKMAN: It is free solid content.
20 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Okay.
21 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: 15 divided by
22 1000.

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© 2014 271 1 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: You say salt water
2 is
3 3%.
4 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That would be the
5 same.
6 MR. SDANO: All right. So it does mesh
7 then?
8 And the other thing we did on 40.6 is we
9 specified obviously a stricter temperature limits
10 and we specified a maximum kinematic viscosity as
11 well.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks. And maybe
13 after break, maybe we will have your presentation
14 today.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: I have a question.
16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison. So thanks for
17 raising it Arnie because you confirmed the basic
18 parameters that are in this definition. Alison?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: So you guys had previously
20 said you intended to cover gray water as well in
21 this -- I really don't know what is in gray water.
22 MR. HUBER: You don't want to know.

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© 2014 272 1 [Laughter]
2 MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to suggest as
3 a reward for being so productive that we take a
4 break. It is now 2:55, let's take a 15 minute
5 break and then maybe before -- do you know what
6 time this -- the Dunkin Donut closes?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Five minutes.
8 MR. BROOKMAN: So you can go get a coke
9 or a cup of coffee. Yeah.
10 So we will resume at ten after three. Go
11 quickly.
12 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
13 MR. BROOKMAN: What I thought would be
14 good to do next is especially since we just had a
15 break and we are fresh would be to hear from Arnie
16 Sdano who has a presentation on 40.6. And you can
17 see that his slides have been loaded on the
18 machine. Arnie wherever you wish to stand where
19 you can project. Please take it away.
20 MR. SDANO: All right. No problem. I
21 have got nothing but an outdoor voice.
22 So I appreciate the opportunity to come

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© 2014 273 1 and I think Alison to the next page, I have got
2 two pages trying to convince, we know the NGOs
3 have nothing but goodness in their heart but
4 trying to convince the HI guys are the same way.
5 So the first couple of pages are PR for the
6 Hydraulics Institute although I didn't copy a --
7 out of one of the test arrangements for a vertical
8 turbine pump and a suction can, clearly different
9 than a VS8 in my mind, the difference between the
10 two technologies. So radically different. But
11 that is the kind of test arrangement that we show
12 in the standard.
13 The Hydraulic Institute is a nonprofit
14 trade organization representing the pump
15 manufacturers. We try to deliver comprehensive
16 standards to the industry. We try to expand the
17 knowledge of pumps because the better that they
18 are applied to the users of the pumps. And we
19 serve as a forum for exchange of information.
20 Next slide. The standards are adopted
21 in the public interest and we try to negotiate our
22 way through to get customers to understand how to

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© 2014 274 1 apply pumps properly instead of looking at the
2 lowest initial cost. We are always in favor of
3 them having a proper pump installation meaning
4 that it is efficient for them and therefore the
5 pump is going to be a happy pump and operating a
6 long time. And we try to educate the pump using
7 community in torque set. But the use of the
8 standards are entirely voluntary.
9 Next. So the purpose of 40.6 is we
10 wanted to draft a test standard that would have
11 quite a bit of rigor to it and that is based on
12 obviously what we are doing here of negotiating
13 with the future DOE regulations to be around
14 those. And so these are defined to a pretty
15 comprehensive level. We had initially put in some
16 MEI elements and under Sarah Widder's guidance we
17 extracted most of that information and said we
18 will leave acceptance up to this committee to
19 decide what is going to happen making
20 recommendations to the DOE and then we will allow
21 the DOE to give us the final regulations of what
22 the rule acceptance will be.

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© 2014 275 1 So instead it was a testing protocol
2 where we talk about what instrumentation is
3 allowed, the maximum fluctuation of the
4 instrumentation, maximum uncertainty of the
5 values, test arrangements, the methodology of
6 calculating like you saw in the first slide that
7 showed for a vertical turbine pump and suction
8 can.
9 We've done quite a bit eliminating the
10 speed of rotation, the temperature limits, the
11 loss definitions, the calculation methods, the
12 reporting and the calibration of the
13 instrumentation. They are all pretty strictly
14 defined.
15 We had talked earlier about the
16 definition of clean. Well we've defined clear
17 water and we defined it as a temperature range of
18 10 degrees to 30 degrees C. And it had a maximum
19 viscosity of 1.5 times to the minus six meters
20 squared per second. And a maximum density of 1050
21 kilograms per cubic meter which is very similar to
22 the definition of clean water. And we did that to

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© 2014 276 1 avoid the necessity for calculations for
2 corrections of viscosity or corrections for
3 density. Although the density corrections are
4 relatively clear. The committee had quite a bit
5 of discussion of what you do on temperature and
6 viscosity corrections that are not so clear. So
7 we thought it would be best to limit the
8 temperature operation so that -- more strictly
9 than it is by the 14.6 test standard or the ISO
10 9906 in order to avoid the capability for someone
11 to come up with a different answer.
12 Next. I am not sure that the 14.6 and
13 the 9906 have an ISO standard have been made
14 normative. So our standard is based on the grade 2
15 testing level and we've done some pretty extensive
16 dive through some of the unique pump
17 configurations to make sure that we understand how
18 to define efficiencies so there are separate
19 description area in the standard of vertically
20 suspended pumps or submersible pumps, defining
21 where the losses are, what's to be included,
22 what's not to be included. We've been more

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© 2014 277 1 restrictive on the fluid temperature and the
2 viscosity. We mandated the appendix H out of 14.6
3 which is the reporting of the test results. We've
4 made the Appendix I measurement equipment is now
5 normative as well. And we've been pretty
6 restrictive. We've thrown out many of the means
7 that were in 14.6. For example weigh tanks were
8 allowed. We didn't know how you would define
9 steady state using a weigh tank for measuring the
10 flow and so we decided let's exclude that from the
11 standard.
12 Appendix J the time periods for
13 calibration is made normative instead of
14 informative like it is in 9906. We also added
15 extra instrumentation in there that some of it
16 that wasn't there that we decided better go into
17 there as well. And we've mandated seven test
18 points for the 60, 75, 90, 110, 120 percent of the
19 best efficiency point. Hopefully that will cover
20 whatever the DOE decides to regulate relative to
21 the extended product and how you would use that.
22 But again this standard really has none of that in

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© 2014 278 1 it as far as what the equipment criteria is going
2 to be. But we tried to make it as flexible down
3 road as we could.
4 MR. POTTS: I have a question.
5 MR. SDANO: Yes.
6 MR. POTTS: Excuse me. As a purchaser of
7 pumps with these seven test points do you see that
8 -- oftentimes when we purchase pumps we request
9 certified testing; do you think that most
10 manufacturers will go with those seven testing
11 points as part of that certified testing. Or is
12 that something that --
13 MR. SDANO: Oh for certification of the
14 equipment we will have to. But unless you were to
15 specify 40.6 as your criteria --
16 MR. POTTS: Okay.
17 MR. SDANO: -- most likely you would end
18 up specifying the 14.6 existing standard and there
19 would be no change to the test cost.
20 MR. POTTS: I see.
21 MR. SDANO: But frankly what we find and
22 probably most pump manufacturers would agree the

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© 2014 279 1 number of test points almost doesn't matter in
2 comparison to the time that is set up a pump for
3 test.
4 MR. HUBER: That is correct.
5 MR. SDANO: It is much more extensive.
6 MR. POWERS: There is a difference
7 between test points and the guarantee point --
8 MR. SDANO: That is right.
9 MR. POWERS: That needs to be clarified.
10 Some customers will take that as saying you are
11 guaranteeing something.
12 MR. SDANO: And again we extracted all
13 the elements of -- this was -- is not an
14 acceptance test standard; so guaranteed points
15 were extracted. That whole verbiage around it
16 which is inherent in the 14.6 had been extracted.
17 MR. TOWSLEY: Arnie?
18 MR. SDANO: Yeah.
19 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley from
20 Grundfos. I guess the question for DOE or
21 Navigant we've been talking of a metric being at
22 50%. Does it matter that the minimum set of test

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© 2014 280 1 points don't mention 50%. Or should it be --
2 MS. WIDDER: So --
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah Widder.
4 MS. WIDDER: Sorry. This is Sarah
5 Widder.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Stand up, Sarah.
7 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So the minimum was
8 set in test points for the purposes of 40.6 are
9 primarily around establishing BEP flow --
10 MR. TOWSLEY: Okay.
11 MS. WIDDER: -- for the pump and
12 establishing the BEP point.
13 MR. TOWSLEY: Uh-huh.
14 MS. WIDDER: To the extent that there
15 are -- you know we still have not established what
16 load points will be used in the metric. But to
17 the extent that the load points in the metric are
18 different than those that the pump is tested under
19 there would need to be some agreement. And it
20 could either be a calculation based interpolation
21 of some sort or it could be just specifying 50 as
22 one of the seven. There could be a number of ways

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© 2014 281 1 that that crosswalk could be made. But yeah that
2 is a good point. But this -- at least --
3 MR. SDANO: Or this could be adopted
4 with some min vent tax strike around what those
5 points are.
6 MS. WIDDER: Yes, so I think that is a
7 minor detail. But these are -- those points are
8 specified mostly for establishing BEP at the pump.
9 MR. SDANO: I mean if we are dealing
10 with the --- right? We are doing this all at the
11 same time and obviously something -- we have to
12 realize that this could give. So --
13 MR. TOWSLEY: Greg Towsley, Grundfos.
14 Another quick question. Does this standard need
15 to be passed and approved prior to DOE accepting
16 this as a test procedure or --
17 MR. SDANO: Yes.
18 MR. TOWSLEY: Okay. So we could not adopt
19 a test procedure that incorporates by reference an
20 industry standard that has not been approved by
21 that organization.
22 MS. WIDDER: Anything specific is not

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© 2014 282 1 publicly available. It had to be --
2 MR. TOWLSEY: It does.
3 MR. SDANO: Next slide please.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Alison.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Sorry.
6 MR. SDANO: So the draft right now is --
7 -- for balloting for the standards voting
8 representation from HI. And that is going to
9 close April 4. I know that as of last Thursday we
10 had six returned ballots already. And we are
11 looking at some time slots to have teleconferences
12 to review. But it will close in about a week and a
13 half. And we intend to have committee
14 teleconferences to go through and smooth out
15 whatever errors that have been discovered or
16 comments that we receive. The final document we
17 are on track for putting it over to the DOE by May
18 15.
19 And I would really like to thank Sarah
20 Widder for her valued input into the development
21 of the standard and a lot of effort that she has
22 made on this as well.

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© 2014 283 1 So any questions.
2 I did ask for an update from the
3 chairman of 40.9 which is the extended product as
4 well and pretty much they have decided to stop
5 their work until they get more direction of what
6 we decide and how we are going to apply this to an
7 extended product before they continue. So they've
8 drafted a pretty extensive standard and said okay
9 we really have to wait until some decisions are
10 made before we can go any further on it.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you Arnie.
12 MR. SDANO: All right.
13 MR. BROOKMAN: Oh, Charlie's got a
14 question.
15 MR. CAPPELLINO: I just want to
16 recognize Arnie as well. I sat in on some of
17 these meetings, there was a tremendous number, I
18 don't know how many there were but at least ten or
19 12 meetings, phone conferences. And Arnie and
20 Sarah led all of those and they did a real nice
21 job of a very complex task at deriving something
22 pretty quickly frankly.

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© 2014 284 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So thanks Arnie.
2 [Applause]
3 MR. BROOKMAN: And it was well
4 presented.
5 Just going basically in order almost in
6 order on the agenda side, slide number 2 that you
7 have in front of you, excuse me, the item that we
8 haven't taken up yet is right in the middle of the
9 page, applicability of standard pumps with non10 electric drivers. I had a brief conversation with
11 Steve Rosenstock at the break and he was saying
12 that VT pumps since they were excluded from the
13 scope, a lot of agricultural pumps are VT pumps or
14 at least some --
15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That is what I was --
16 yes -
17 - 18 MR. BROOKMAN: And so Steve maybe you
19 could lead off this discussion about how you think
20 the current scope relates to non-electric drivers
21 because you sent an email -- actually a memo
22 around as well.

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© 2014 285 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes two weeks ago. I
2 don't know if you want to bring that up from a
3 couple of weeks ago. I was able to find some data
4 at least just purely on the agricultural sector
5 and this -- just start at the top. Basically
6 again this is all public data. Steve Rosenstock,
7 EEI. This is basically -- the USDA does a survey
8 of the agricultural sector. They actually show
9 data for more pumping, for pumps being used by
10 farms. And basically they do it every five years.
11 The 2013 data is not out yet unfortunately. So
12 this was the most recent for the agricultural
13 sector and they break it out in their tables in
14 terms of what is out there in the U.S.
15 agricultural sector. And just to
16 highlight real quick 69% of the pumps used in
17 agricultural sector are electric pumps. The other
18 31% are diesel, natural gas or gasoline or
19 propane. Primarily the non-electric ones are
20 actually diesel pumps. And they also submitted
21 some links where in the past diesel pumps actually
22 outnumbered electric pumps way back when 30, 40,

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© 2014 286 1 50 years ago just because in rural areas that was
2 the easiest application. You didn't have to worry
3 about running lines or anything and just the
4 easiest - quickest to install basically.
5 So if you scroll down all I did was the
6 first cut basically -- basically also shown in the
7 table how much they spent on energy and this is
8 for say 2007, this is how much they spent on
9 pumping energy in I'll say 2007, 2008 and again
10 they broke it out by type. I just did the
11 percentages. Again first cut. And then I said
12 well I will just take the first cut I will just
13 say -- I'll assume some prices based on 2008 data
14 that I saw at EIA just to get some round numbers
15 in terms of what some of the site energy usage is
16 by energy type. Diesel and gasoline were the most
17 interesting because remember in 2008 they spiked
18 it over $4.00 and then crashed down to $2.00. So
19 I just used $3.00 as an annualized average for
20 that year, so it captures the price variation.
21 Again this is just the first cut. Here
22 is what is going on in terms of some of the

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© 2014 287 1 numbers. And then at the bottom I just said well
2 again this was cited I didn't do any sort of
3 analysis because of regional issues. 58% was
4 again this is just agriculture at site not as much
5 at the site as possible, 41% was electricity and
6 then it just shows some other articles I found in
7 terms of -- just other articles and other news
8 articles especially from agricultural type of
9 publications in terms of what they said how much
10 energy was being used.
11 Again this was just the agricultural
12 sector. I didn't find any as good data for either
13 the commercial or industrial sector. But again --
14 and again I didn't know what we were going to do
15 in terms of the types of pumps being used. But if
16 these types of pumps were still in the picture
17 that is why I said it might still be an idea to
18 look at non-electric drivers but since we've
19 excluded most of the non- electric drivers with
20 our previous vote it probably doesn't matter -- I
21 don't know about the industrial sector what
22 percentage is electric versus non- electric. I am

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© 2014 288 1 sure it is a lot lower than agricultural. It is
2 probably a little higher than commercial. I don't
3 have any numbers.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Maybe we can get
5 some numbers -- so general thoughts on this. Chuck
6 please?
7 MR. POWERS: A couple of observations. I
8 read Steve's report. Good data by Steve right. I
9 used to be the general manager -- I'm not trying
10 to -- general manager in our Hastings, Nebraska
11 facility which was 90% irrigation. The total
12 number of pumps he showed there 600,000 is the
13 installed base number one; right?
14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.
15 MR. POWERS: Well what is interesting
16 here is he is right. Back in the '30s and the
17 '40s when they were trying to get through the dust
18 bowl and all the other things that were occurring
19 it was all either diesel, even Cappellino designs
20 but also diesel engine drives. The diesel engines
21 you see is what is left over. Those things last
22 forever. Again they run for three months a year

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© 2014 289 1 and they unbuckle them and take them to the house
2 and run the power from that for all kinds of
3 different activities used. But the actual new
4 diesel installations is almost paying off to zero.
5 And there are a lot of factors involved. The
6 reason is then the advent of the center pivots
7 came along. The early years it was all ground
8 irrigation; right. Then the center pivots came
9 along. The center pivots all three of the
10 manufacturers in the world today are within 30
11 miles of the center of the state of Nebraska near
12 Hastings, Nebraska. All three of them and they
13 ship them all around the world. The original
14 center pivots were actually water driven. Actually
15 platelets that actually -- they actually drove
16 them by water. Then they went to small electric
17 motors on each of the -- well actually it had a --
18 believe it or not it had a U-shaft type design you
19 have the diesel engine driving the shaft going
20 down to gear boxes and driving each wheel. They
21 ran into problems, the center pivots got twisted,
22 bent and out of control. Then they went to

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© 2014 290 1 electric drives. And now they've gone full
2 extents where hills and holes and all that where
3 some of them slow down and the others catch up and
4 all. The point is an electricity build is that
5 entire operation, not just the pump now. When a
6 farmer flips the switch he is regulating how much
7 power. So you've got the center pivot running 24
8 hours a day in a circle, each of those little
9 electrical motors. Now you've got a 25 horse
10 turbine pump running that is absorbing x power but
11 then you've got a center pivot with -- it depends
12 on how big these gangs are. Most of them are
13 quarter miles; right -- or quarter section I
14 should say. And these things are quite
15

-- 16 MR. ECKMAN: 125 radius.
17 MR. POWERS: The full quarter mile --
18 MR. BROOKMAN: 125 acres?
19 MR. ECKMAN: Yes.
20 MR. POWERS: Because it is square tenths
21 of a horsepower.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Wow.

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© 2014 291 1 MR. ECKMAN: who knows some of them might
2 be ECM someday.
3 [Laughter]
4 MR. POWERS: Great. The horsepower is
5 really low on them but the gearing is incredible.
6 They have other types of systems and the actual
7 farmer can be out there in another field, drive
8 his tractor, he turns on the computer and he can
9 see how far the center pivot is. It takes
10 basically three days to make a full circle; right.
11 But they go into drip irrigation. They've really
12 improved a lot of stuff and there is still a lot
13 to go. So what we've got to be careful of as we
14 look at data and try and understand where is the
15 direction it is going. Now because of the natural
16 gas though things are starting to change again.
17 They are saying should we have that gas driven
18 units and then in California -- each, Nebraska is
19 one version, California has others because Gary
20 will tell you California is different than
21 everybody else and it is. But there are other
22 places around the world in Saudi Arabia, there are

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© 2014 292 1 places in Florida where they keep the trees from
2 freezing by flooding the fields but that is only
3 for like a two week period during the freeze
4 season before the season starts right. There is a
5 lot of variabilities here we've got to pay
6 attention to.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Well thank you
8 for that. Gary?
9 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. So just
10 in contrast we have electric only sales in the
11 South Joaquin Valley where we compete with the
12 Southern California Gas Company. And to kind of
13 support Steve's perspective on the multi fuel
14 drive for these pumps the gas company is coming
15 out and running pipes and nipping off our electric
16 motor drives. So it has been a competitive issue
17 for us to see these pumps being converted to
18 natural gas engines.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Interesting.
20 MR. POWERS: But in Nebraska they also
21 have gotten to the point they are outlawing gas
22 driving -- natural gas because what is the setup

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© 2014 293 1 that it does -- what is one of the biggest
2 products of Nebraska. It is the second largest
3 tornado and lightning strike area, number one is
4 Florida. Number two is Nebraska. What happens to
5 a big steel center pivot when there is lightning
6 storm going by. It becomes a lightning rod and
7 you see things -- they are blowing up these things
8 left and right with lightning strikes. So they
9 are trying to get away from natural gas because
10 they've learned it is a problem. Maybe your
11 friend in southern California will learn the hard
12 way too.
13 [Laughter]
14 MR. CASE: Now you've got a new sales
15 pitch.
16 MR. FERNSTROM: We are -- our company
17 has enough trouble with natural gas issues for
18 those of you familiar with it.
19 MR. CASE: You guys have got to say we
20 are a grounding strap and -- [Laughter]
21 MR. CASE: -- and they are a bomb.
22 MR. ECKMAN: It is really earthquakes --

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© 2014 294 1 MR CASE: But Gary your company was
2 Pacific Gas and Electric.
3 [Laughter]
4 MR. BROOKMAN: So multiple contributions
5 from members there.
6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I mean obviously and
7 also there are environmental laws especially with
8 the

-- 9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
10 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- if the EPA ratchets
11 it up the ozone non-attainment area, that can have
12 an impact as well. I mean there are a lot of
13 moving parts in this market but this was just a
14 snapshot, just -- but since we've kind of excluded
15 a lot of those pumps it might not make a
16 difference but if leaving in there then it might
17 now -- I'm starting to think of fuel neutrality.
18 But then we kind of -- we have already excluded
19 most of those -- I'll say those non-electric
20 drivers anyway but then it is not as big a deal
21 now.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Right. So thinking just

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© 2014 295 1 let me ask the members present and thank you Steve
2 for presenting and for doing that memo and for
3 that last comment. Based on what we've included
4 in scope are there many non-electric drivers that
5 are going to be subject to this scope? Are there
6 -- is it 95%, 99% where are we with that?
7 Al Huber?
8 MR. HUBER: If you were going down -- it
9 just depends if you were going down to real small
10 horsepowers and you've got some end suction pumps
11 being driven by gasoline engines, most of those
12 are for consumers or private residential areas.
13 And most of them are temporary type situations.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: What are they used for?
15 MR. HUBER: People us them for
16 irrigation, they will throw them in a creek
17 somewhere, they are not supposed to but they do.
18 They throw them in a creek somewhere --
19 MR. ECKMAN: Or in their pond.
20 MR. HUBER: -- or in a pond, yes or to
21 irrigate with small area, maybe their yard or
22 maybe their garden or whatever. They use it for a

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© 2014 296 1 basement to pump out a basement, those kinds of
2 things.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Lucas?
4 MR. ADIN: So the other -- so I guess
5 that actually answered part of my question how
6 many of these pumps are realistically within the
7 horsepower flow, head range that we are looking
8 at?
9 MR. HUBER: Probably none.
10 MR. ADIN: Yeah. And so the other aspect
11 that we were considering was if there are design
12 improvements made --
13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: That is a different
14 standard.
15 [Laughter]
16 MR. ADIN: A pump that is used with a
17 non- electric driver may have already benefited
18 from some of those efficiency --
19 MR. HUBER: right.
20 MR. ADIN: You would still see some
21 savings.
22 MR. HUBER: Right.

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© 2014 297 1 MR. POWERS: That kind of gets back --
2 this is Chuck that kind of gets back to talking to
3 the agency about their pumps.
4 MR. ADIN: Right.
5 MR. POWERS: A lot of them are being
6 shipped there for OSO.
7 MR. ADIN: Right.
8 MR. POWERS: The standard impacts their
9 pump -- [Conversations]
10 MR. ADIN: I think the main thing we
11 wanted to make sure we had clear was what are we
12 using as the basis for the metric. Like if you
13 are assuming it is an electric driver that greatly
14 simplifies

-- 15 MR. BROOKMAN: That is what I wanted to
16 explore; precisely that.
17 MR. ADIN: Because otherwise
18 prospectively you might have a test, a metric that
19 includes engines for -- so we just want to make
20 sure we are clear about how all that --
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
22 Steve Rosenstock?

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© 2014 298 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
2 And yeah since we approved the definition it does
3 keep it in the scope so that if let's say gas
4 engines starts skyrocketing, DOE can come back and
5 say all right they are now 30% of the market, we
6 need a separate test procedure for those gas
7 turbines or those gas engines or DSEs or whatever.
8 So and you have the ability to expand the scope
9 again if you want to adjust to the market
10 conditions. So --
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I am already to a
13 neutral though because you've limited the scope it
14 really doesn't matter at this point.
15 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But since you kept it
17 in the definition we voted to that way you have
18 the ability and the authority to regulate them as
19 you see if there are any -- if anything starts
20 skyrocketing et cetera.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah, just to clarify or
22 confirm Lucas just stated that if it's electric

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© 2014 299 1 only that is going to really simplify things. That
2 then the question would be and Steve's comments
3 were helpful, is that going to be sufficient for
4 our purposes here and now.
5 Joanna?
6 MS. MAUER: I just want to clarify that
7 if the manufacturer is shipping a pump with an
8 engine but the bare pump would still be subject to
9

-- 10 MR. HUBER: Yes.
11 MS. MAUER: -- bare pump standards and I
12 guess the metric would still assume that it is
13 driven by a direct motor but --
14 MR. ADIN: Right. That is effectively
15 how this would -- the rating would be based upon
16 the use of the electric motor but the pump would
17 still see a hydraulic efficiency improvement. So
18

-- 19 MR. HUBER: Basically if we were to test
20 it, we wouldn't test it with an engine anyway. We
21 would test the pump with an electric motor. So --
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Is there anything

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© 2014 300 1 else to be said on this subject?
2 Just checking.
3 MR. ADIN: That satisfies my original
4 question.
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So it is -- do we
6 want to start talking about metrics?
7 MS. WIDDER: Could we maybe vote on that
8 issue.
9 MR. ADIN: So --
10 MS. WIDDER: -- looking at me?
11 [Laughter]
12 MR. BROOKMAN: I'd be willing to move it
13 but I don't think I've obtained clarity enough on
14

-- 15 MR. ADIN: Well what I was going to say
16 is I think the vote on the metric will take care
17 of that.
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Yeah.
19 MS. WIDDER: So do you want to just talk
20 about metric then?
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah what would you want
22 us to vote on?

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© 2014 301 1 MS. WILLIAMS: That in this rule making
2 the metric will not cover non-electric motors.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
4 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I think -- I guess
5 for me that will happen now or later when we vote
6 on the metric.
7 MS. BROOKMAN: Right.
8 MS. WIDDER: And there are a lot of
9 other things to vote on in the metric like the
10 general framework and the load points and the
11 weighting and the denominator. There is a lot of
12 nitty gritty details so I was thinking if we could
13 establish up front that we are just going to talk
14 about electric motors as the driver --
15 MR. BROOKMAN: That sounds like a
16 productive thing for us to do. Shall we do that?
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Only for this rule
18 making?
19 MS. WIDDER: Only for this discussion at
20 this very moment.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So maybe -- I
22 think that is not a bad idea. Anybody got a

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© 2014 302 1 serious problem with doing that? It will make
2 things simpler. Let me note also at the last
3 meeting I thought we made a lot of progress on the
4 issue of metrics. There was a lot of confirmation
5 in the room and we didn't do many voting or
6 anything like that but I did a lot of thumbnail of
7 confirmation as we were going along.
8 So Chuck do you have a comment before --
9 MR. POWERS: I have a question.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.
11 MR. POWERS: It gets back to everything
12 we talked about. So Sarah let me ask you or
13 Alison so if a manufacturer has a pump and he
14 applies a diesel engine to it could he bypass this
15 standard?
16 MS. WIDDER: No.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: No.
18 MR. POWERS: You know what I am saying -
19 - 20 MS. WILLIAMS: His bare shaft pump still
21 has to meet.
22 MR. POWERS: So when you showed that one

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© 2014 303 1 chart you are showing bare pump products. It
2 doesn't matter the drivers?
3 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes.
4 MR. POWERS: So when you go to definition
5 our standard is only electric motors we are not
6 going to have some knucklehead try to sneak in
7 with diesel and say oh it doesn't apply; right?
8 MS. WIDDER: and I think that is a really
9 good point --
10 MR. POWERS: I am just asking because I
11 want to make sure.
12 MS. WIDDER: -- because maybe we want to
13 specify when we talk about the metric or somehow
14 in the definitions that a bare pump test
15 calculation approach is applicable to bare pumps
16 and

--
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Any driver.
18 MS. WIDDER: -- bare pumps with non19 electric drivers.
20 MR. POWERS: And how is that worded if
21 you are going -- this is Chuck -- with that
22 electric somebody will sneak in and say well I

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© 2014 304 1 have got a diesel and --
2 MS. WIDDER: Yep, yep. I think that is
3 worth clarifying.
4 MR. ADIN: I think the only possible
5 situation in which pump within the parameters that
6 we have defined might not be covered is if it is a
7 pump that is like integrated with an engine, like
8 it is not a bare pump, it is driven by an engine,
9 it's the whole thing is one. I am not aware that
10 there is any such thing.
11 MR. POWERS: Well the fire pump --
12 MR. ADIN: Except for fire pumps.
13 MR. POWERS: But you have got that
14 excluded anyway.
15 MR. ADIN: Right.
16 MR. HUBER: It is possible --
17 MR. BROOKMAN: the last thing you said.
18 You are not aware of what? Lucas?
19 MR. ADIN: And I guess it is an open
20 question really is there such a thing as -- I
21 don't know if you would consider it like a -- kind
22 of a close coupled pump --

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© 2014 305 1 MR. HUBER: You could --
2 MR. ADIN: -- engine.
3 MR. HUBER: -- shaft --
4 MR. ADIN: There are close --
5 MR. HUBER: -- motor to the fly.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Al. Arnie?
7 MR ADIN: It would fall within --
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Test them --
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie?
10 MR. SDANO: Arnie Sdano, Pentair. We do
11 make a pump like that and it is for fertilization
12 where it is tractor mount and you know it is
13 driven by an engine directly. But the fact that
14 it is pumping chemicals would exclude it anyway.
15 MS. WILLILAMS: So even if it is
16 integrated you could -- if there did happen to be
17 one you could test it with an electric motor.
18 MR. HUBER: You could.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay.
20 MR. SDANO: Again Arnie -- Arnie Sdano,
21 Pentair. We -- when we did 40.6 this discussion
22 occurred and we decided on 40.6 that yes there are

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© 2014 306 1 calibrated motors is kind of inherent to it but we
2 said we have got to include torque meters as well
3 for the other types of drivers or for non4 calibrated motors as well. So that is in the 40.6
5 test standard as well.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: So does that mean you are
7 covered?
8 MR. HUBER: Yes.
9 MR. STANO: I believe so.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Greg you are next?
11 MR. CASE: I was just going to comment
12 on that close coupled I used to work for a company
13 that made these and we made them for the military
14 desalination. They run them up off the beach with
15 these things, fire them up and pull salt water and
16 create fresh water. Those pumps were not
17 different pumps than electrically driven pumps.
18 They just happen to be close couple to an engine.
19 So they wouldn't have gotten around the standard
20 to begin with.
21 MR. ADIN: Right. I think that is the
22 main thing we are concerned about as long as you

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© 2014 307 1 can rate them for the process we are talking about
2 basically using electric driver that is --
3 MR. POWERS: And the only other one that
4 comes close is fire trucks. The center of the
5 fire truck is the heart and they call it the pump
6 and it has got a PTO drive shaft right on the back
7 side of the engine. When these guys pull up you
8 hear the engine running. We always wonder why is
9 that fire truck engine running good and loud at
10 high RPMs because he is driving the pump that is
11 in the center of the truck. And these things are
12 very unique designs and special. They look like
13 hearts because they've got valves and pipes in all
14 directions. We are in the heart of it.
15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But the hours of
16 operation are going to be --
17 MR. POWERS: Oh yeah it is a different
18 ballgame.
19 MR. BROOKMAN: Excuse me folks. One at
20 a time. Al Huber.
21 MS. WIDDER: I hope --
22 MR. HUBER: The pump on the -- most of

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© 2014 308 1 the pumps on the fire trucks are not in any of
2 these categories that are in our scope anyway so I
3 don't think you've got to --
4 MR. POWERS: Right.
5 MR. ADIN: I'm only talking about the
6 pumps inside the scope.
7 MR. HUBER: The only one there would be
8 -- would probably be end suction.
9 MR. ADIN: Okay.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am noting that
11 Alison has written up there proposal for
12 vote which reads good to me. It reads as follows:
13 In this rulemaking -- this is like an
14 eye chart -- the metric will not cover non15 electric drivers. The test procedure will specify
16 that the bare pump calculations also apply to
17 pumps with non- electric drivers.
18 I think that is well written right
19 there. So shall we do this; let's have a vote on
20 this.
21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Bare pump efficiency
22 calculation?

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© 2014 309 1 MR. BROOKMAN: It further clarifies the
2 scope.
3 Steve we didn't hear you.
4 MS. WIDDER: Metric.
5 MS. WILLIAMS: Because it might not be
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Now it is big enough that
7 you all can read it.
8 I am about to call the question. Are we
9 ready? Yes.
10 All those in favor of adopting this
11 proposal which would limit the bare pump -- would
12 limit the non-electric drivers and also specify
13 that the test procedure -- I am not going to read
14 it all again. The test procedure would specify
15 that the bare pump rating in the calculations for
16 the energy conservation standard also apply to
17 pumps with non-electric motors. All those in favor
18 of doing that please raise your hands?
19 One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
20 eight, -- so we are unanimous on that vote as
21 well.
22 So thank you Sarah. That was a useful

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© 2014 310 1 addition.
2 MR. FERNSTROM: This is Gary. I would
3 just like to observe we are on a roll.
4 [Laughter]
5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Maybe we should quit
6 while we are ahead. A few more people head rolls.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: So I am looking at the
8 agenda items and it is 3:50 just about. We have
9 as much as an hour left in the day if we chose to
10 use all of it. Should we move on to metrics now?
11 MR. ADIN: We certainly could do that.
12 We have a fairly substantial slide deck that I'm
13 having printed right now. So we will have it
14 ready so that everyone here can take it with them
15 tonight and just look it over. Let it marinate
16 before tomorrow.
17 But we could at least start the
18 discussion at least in a general sense so that we
19 are kind of cued up for tomorrow; we know what it
20 is that we want to cover.
21 MR. BROOKMAN: I think it is a useful
22 thing to try to do that. Chuck?

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© 2014 311 1 MR. POWERS: I also asked so that I can
2 digest this, Alison, maybe today the stuff that we
3 voted on, those changes in this final sheets if
4 you can email that to all of us sometime before
5 the end of the day. Is that possible?
6 MR. BROOKMAN: For the ones we voted on?
7 MR. POWERS: Yeah. Right.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah, just the voting
9 slide.
10 MR. POWERS: Whatever -- we had this one
11 and we had other ones -- just so I have --
12 MR. ADIN: Sure.
13 MR. POWERS: They're done. I mean they
14 are locked.
15 MR. ADIN: That is right.
16 MR. POWERS: If that is possible?
17 Electronically.
18 MR. ADIN: Yeah. So what we will do is
19 after we are done here is -- because we have
20 obviously a number of pieces here. So we will
21 consolidate everything that reflects what we voted
22 on and we will send that to you.

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© 2014 312 1 MR. BROOKMAN: So Sarah are you in a
2 position to --
3 MS. WIDDER: I am.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: -- cue us up.
5 MS. WIDDER: I am getting --
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Do you all need a five
7 minute break? Or are we okay? We are okay.
8 Okay. We will keep going.
9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So metric slides. So
10 the first bunch of slides are going to look very
11 similar to ones that we talked about last meeting.
12 And so it will just sort of get us back into what
13 the metric looks like, what the framework is, what
14 we want to accomplish with it. But we will go over
15 it pretty quickly. At a high level this is the
16 section as Lucas mentioned this is pretty
17 substantial slide deck. There are five sections.
18 So the review is the first initial slides I was
19 just talking about that includes that issues list
20 that we made last time with a lot of information I
21 was going to bring to this meeting. I have some
22 detailed examples for applying the test procedure

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© 2014 313 1 to bare shaft pump, pump plus a motor, and a pump
2 plus a motor and two different types of controls
3 applying a calculation based method as well as
4 testing more like wire to water based methods for
5 the pump and motor, pump and motor and controls.
6 And then these last three are things we read off
7 last time. The load points, the weighting
8 options, and the denominator. And looking at some
9 sensitivity around what those are and hopefully
10 maybe being able to vote on those.
11 So we will just dive right in I guess.
12 At the outset I outlined them this way as if we
13 were going to go through them all. I am confident
14 we are not going to do that this afternoon. Is it
15 -- would the committee like to jump to the like
16 load point weighting sensitivity or is there a
17 particular part we went to look at today to get
18 ready for tomorrow?
19 MR. BROOKMAN: I have an observation or
20 actually a recollection. I recall at our last
21 meeting that members requested that the
22 manufacturing contingent come up with specific

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© 2014 314 1 questions should you have any and bring them
2 forward during the course of this meeting. I
3 don't know whether you all got that well organized
4 or whether we just do this as we flow along here.
5 MR. CASE: I think we have questions as
6 we go along. I was going to suggest -- this is
7 Greg Case with HI -- that we kind of go over what
8 the issues were from the last meeting as you have
9 them there --
10 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.
11 MR. CASE: And that kind of primes us
12 for tomorrow.
13 MS. WIDDER: Yep. Okay. So I am just
14 going to start with that first bullet. We will
15 review the PER metric and get to the issues. And
16 then we will see where we are at.
17 So here is the slide you have seen a lot
18 of times, the coverage of the metric and the
19 intention that it will cover or be applicable to a
20 pump sold as a bare pump, a pump with motor or
21 plus a driver, a pump plus a driver and controls.
22 I changed this driver. Now it could be motor.

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© 2014 315 1 So again we want our metric to
2 encapsulate or account for the energy use or
3 efficiency of the bare pump, of the driver and of
4 the controls. So we are going to have a way of
5 accounting for each item in those boxes.
6 MR. POWERS: I am sorry.
7 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
8 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck, Flowserve.
9 Some of the pump guys sell bare pumps and that is
10 all they ever do. Some of the pump guys sell
11 pumps and motors. Some of them variations.
12 Customer specs may say that is one pump, -- drive
13 or two. Some may include the VFDs or whatever;
14 right. So when we do this, like you had in your
15 first chart it is independent, whatever that ends
16 up being; right.
17 MR. ADIN: So -- Lucas, the idea is that
18 the metric should be able to account for any one
19 of those configurations. So if you are only
20 selling a bare pump we should have way of coming
21 up with rating for that bare pump. We will make
22 an assumption for the motor to be useful. We will

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© 2014 316 1 say we are going to assume for the purposes of
2 rating this pump and we will get into the details
3 of this in a little bit. But that it is a
4 minimally compliant electric motor, so it complies
5 with like a federal regulation or whatever is
6 useful so you are able to come up with a rating
7 that is based on an assumed motor. Do you see
8 what I mean. It wouldn't just be a high pump
9 efficiency. You would come up with this rating.
10 The pump would actually be used with the motor and
11 you are making an assumption about the motor that
12 will be used with that. Does that --
13 MR. POWERS: I am just trying to think
14 through as an OEM if our requirement as an OEM it
15 is a bare pump. If our requirement was a bare
16 pump and motor I understand. We are selling to
17 somebody and they are packaging and they are doing
18 whatever. They give wire to meet the three levels
19 or the two levels. Am I --
20 MR. ADIN: Understood.
21 MR. POWERS: I want to make sure I am
22 not -- in other words who is actually responsible

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© 2014 317 1 for actually certifying the product.
2 MR. ADIN: Yeah.
3 MR. POWERS: So in other words if I can
4 understand, this is Chuck again.
5 MR. ADIN: Right.
6 MR. POWERS: If you are saying Chuck
7 these - - we never did come up with a name but
8 MR. STARR: Lot 4, there are only four of
9 them right?
10 MR. POWERS: Right. But --
11 MR. BROOKMAN: We will come up with a
12 better name.
13 MR. POWERS: For those products right.
14 If we build the product to meet those, whatever we
15 end up with; right?
16 MR. ADIN: Okay.
17 MR. POWERS: That is all we ship out
18 the door.
19 MR. ADIN: Right.
20 MR. POWERS: Some guys might package,
21 some guys might -- it just depends on the customer
22 whatever it is. We can only be responsible as an

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© 2014 318 1 OEM for what we ship out the door.
2 MR. ADIN: Yes.
3 MR. POWERS: Now if we package it with a
4 motor and I am guessing then we would have A and B
5 and supplying the VFD they may have to meet A, B
6 and C. Now testing we would have to use the
7 appropriate motor for the testing --
8 MR. ADIN: Right.
9 MR. POWERS: -- to qualify; right?
10 MR. ADIN: Right.
11 MR. POWERS: Am I thinking wrong
12 Charlie?
13 MS. WIDDER: I feel like you are getting
14 into the details. I feel like this will become
15 clear if we walk through the examples.
16 MR. ADIN: But let me clarify.
17 MR. WIDDER: But I do want Lucas to
18 clarify something.
19 MR. ADIN: So the standard is applicable
20 to the product as distributed pumps by the
21 manufacturer. So the requirements are on the
22 manufacturer, not on anyone downstream when

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© 2014 319 1 assembled. This is something I think we covered.
2 MR. CAPPELLINO: This is Charlie. I
3 thought we defined a distributor who gets a bare
4 pump and assembles it with a driver was doing
5 manufacturing and that was included. I think is -
6 -
7 MR. BROOKMAN: That was a part --
8 MS. WIDDER: We have talked about that.
9 MR. CAPPELLINO: That was our
10 understanding from a legal standpoint.
11 MR. POWERS: I just --
12 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't think it was
13 resolved.
14 MS. WIDDER: It wasn't voted on.
15 MR. CAPPELLINO: It was a legal -- it
16 was a legal --
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Betsy says that is a part
18 of the definition of --
19 MR. POWERS: This is Chuck. And why
20 that is important, this is my opinion, I am just
21 trying to help. If we end up with a lion share of
22 off-shore manufacturers to jump in here, okay.

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© 2014 320 1 They are going to be required to meet the pump.
2 They won't be shipping motors and VFDs overseas,
3 over the water; right. They will be shipping that
4 pump in the states to compete with us. And so we
5 are saying as long as they meet the pump they are
6 not -- guarantee you they are going to put their
7 hands up on the drivers and VFDs. But that local
8 guy like we would have would be packaging on that
9 stuff. He would have to meet these other
10 standards. Or else if -- do you know what I am
11 saying it would be a very unfair situation.
12 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber.
13 MR. HUBER: Lucas I think before we had
14 a legal opinion that anyone who added that value
15 and that value changed it is our understanding
16 that anybody that added value that value change
17 was subject to this regulation because they were
18 considered a manufacturer. If they assembled or
19 altered in any way.
20 MR. ADIN: I remember that conversation.
21 And I may just be misremembering what the
22 conclusion was.

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© 2014 321 1 MS. WIDDER: And -- I am sorry go ahead.
2 MR. POWERS: It's very important.
3 MR. ADIN: Oh it is important.
4 MR. STARR: It won't work otherwise.
5 MR. HUBER: Yeah. It won't work
6 otherwise. That is right.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Bob Babour.
8 MR. BARBOUR: This is Bob Barbour. If I
9 remember correctly they even got to the point
10 where they said they weren't going to try to
11 enforce against two guys with a screwdriver.
12 MR. ADIN: I remember that.
13 MR. BARBOUR: Because some of
14 representatives out there are not 25, 30 people
15 organizations, they could be two people in an
16 office selling a pump and putting a motor with it.
17 MR. ADIN: Yeah.
18 MR. BARBOUR: and we got the question of
19 how do you -- how are you going to regulate that?
20 MR. ADIN: All right. So the regulation
21 applies to manufacturers. I think we are talking
22 about who is the manufacturer.

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© 2014 322 1 MR. HUBER: The definition of --
2 MR. ADIN: I might be confusing one
3 conversation with another. So I didn't mean to
4 imply that I am interpreting this differently.
5 MR. HUBER: If you are looking for
6 something that we need an answer to tomorrow, we
7 need an answer to this first thing.
8 MR. ADIN: Well to the extent that is an
9 open question today.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Actually Steve is next.
11 MR. STARR: I was going to -- the one
12 important thing Betsy is coming back. I asked her
13 on the way out. But she is definitely on board
14 with that. We left that broad definition of
15 manufacturer open. So define manufacture as one
16 who puts things together mainly distributor. And
17 it didn't go down to the level of the contractor.
18 There wasn't so much concern about that. It did
19 go to the distributor level.
20 MR. ADIN: Okay.
21 MS. WIDDER: So - sorry.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Steven Rosenstock.

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© 2014 323 1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I was going to say just
2 looking at this again I think it is after the high
3 level in my view as we go down this road in my
4 view there should be three measures from the three
5 different situations.
6 MR. HUBER: I agree.
7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Because you are doing
8 different tests on different sets of equipment you
9 are locking in -- like a bare pump you are locking
10 in the test equipment. The motor can't change
11 period. You can't add controls. That is a locked
12 number static efficiency. You are just checking
13 what the efficiency of that bare pump is compared
14 to the minimum standard. If it exceeds it, you are
15 done. So in my view if we are going -- if we go
16 down this road there should be in my view I hate -
17 - it is three metrics, I know it is probably three
18 test procedures. But when you think about it there
19 are three different products in a way in my view
20 because you might be designing them differently to
21 meet the different configurations. They all work
22 together but still --

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© 2014 324 1 MR. POWERS: But there is -- sorry, just
2 a quick question. There is one other piece of
3 this -- this is Chuck that we have to be careful
4 of. If you've got and I'll take my buddy, Doug,
5 at the end of the hall here if he's got a bunch of
6 plants that he is running; right and we are or
7 even if we are going to supply them with a
8 replacement unit and they've already got a VFD and
9 they've already got a motor and all the other
10 stuff. We are just supplying the bare pump to
11 replace the unit. We can only be subject to the
12 bare pump. There is going to be a lot of that
13 business with upgrades and improvements and
14 whatever. So if we are then responsible for the
15 pump and the drive and VFD they may be old, they
16 may be out of date. We are not going to be
17 responsible for that.
18 MR. HUBER: As sold.
19 MR. POTTS: I was going to say what he
20 said. I thought that was pretty clear. It is as
21 sold. So you are not selling us the VFD or the
22 motor if we already have it.

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© 2014 325 1 MR. POWERS: Right. But if we tie it to
2 the motors then somebody is going to hold us to
3 the

--
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?
5 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr. You
6 know ultimately really what happens is you get
7 your pump efficiency and everything after that is
8 calculated and we slap the label on. So if you
9 get your MEI and somehow it gets massaged, you
10 stick it in and you calculate it by number.
11 Eventually what will happen is you will actually
12 test it and get some real -- as soon as we get
13 VFDs and some other things, motor, better
14 understanding of motors and then there will be an
15 actual test procedure. But this way it is going
16 to be calculated.
17 MR. POWERS: If the motor stand down --
18 MR. STARR: But it doesn't take part
19 load into account really and it doesn't also
20 combining it with certain VFDs you get different
21 outputs.
22 MS. WIDDER: So we -- that is also a

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© 2014 326 1 really good -- I mean all of this the issue of
2 different test procedures for different equipment
3 and calculation versus testing methods it all in
4 here. I promise you. We will talk about it at
5 length.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: So you are suggesting we
7 be systematic.
8 MS. WIDDER: I am just suggesting that I
9 think the discussion of manufacturers and
10 different test procedures applicable to different
11 types of equipment and configurations of equipment
12 is exactly what this slide is trying to capture.
13 If someone is buying a replacement bare shaft pump
14 we have a metric that is able to certify that
15 product to be sold into the marketplace. And if a
16 combined -- a bare shaft pump is being combined
17 with a driver and controls we have a metric that
18 you are able to certify that pump as a combined
19 set of equipment into the marketplace. And it is
20 all about when it is distributed or sale. And I
21 think it is worth having a more lengthy discussion
22 about how we specifically define manufacturer so

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© 2014 327 1 it is not a contractor and if I'm wanting to spec
2 a pump and a motor completely separately I'm still
3 as a customer able to do that. But that doesn't
4 have a -- the metric is designed to be flexible
5 enough to cover all these situations.
6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.
7 MS. WIDDER: Everyone feel satisfied
8 with that.
9 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Charlie?
10 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just the next line.
11 MS. WIDDER: Okay. We are moving on. So
12 this was the preliminary construct for the pump
13 energy rating metric that is just out there for
14 discussion so we have somewhere to start. In this
15 case the red .25s -- and this is something we
16 discussed last time -- the red .25s are equal
17 weightings for each of these separate load points
18 at BEP, 110% of BEP, 75% of BEP, and 50% of BEP
19 flow at nominal speed. So it is essentially a
20 weighted average of the input power to the pump
21 being the entire equipment set at each of those
22 load points. And so for the bare pump and the

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© 2014 328 1 pump and driver cases it would follow the pump
2 curve, those lighter green dots and that is where
3 your load points would be and it would be a
4 weighted average of those points. And then you
5 would be able to account for the energy reduction
6 accomplished by following the system curve with
7 speed control.
8 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just a -- Charlie
9 Cappellino. Just a fine point. It's a weighted
10 average if you have different numbers of .25, .25,
11 .25. The same number, it is just an average
12 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. It is an average.
13 MR. CAPPELLINO: It becomes a weighted
14 average when we --
15 MS. WIDDER: If we have different
16 numbers.
17 MR. CAPELLINO: -- different numbers
18 within the -- in red.
19 MS. WIDDER: Right. It would be
20 weighted based on some other something else; a
21 load curve that we would like to see. So this is
22 a straight average. Yes.

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© 2014 329 1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Thank you.
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
3 So in the -- I just think about the bare pump
4 situation you have a motor that is standard
5 efficiency and you are only throttling the pump,
6 you are not doing anything to the motor, you are
7 just doing whatever to the pump; right?
8 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.
9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So in terms of that
10 what happens to the energy usage to really the
11 motor is really where the energy is being consumed
12 in the final cost what kind of difference are you
13 seeing at different load point settings. Let's
14 say at BEP it is -- I will just say 1kw, 1000, 1.0
15 kW, 1000 watts.
16 MS. WIDDER: Right.
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: When you are doing this
18 just with bare pumps because everything in the
19 motor is static what happens at the other load
20 points. How much of a difference are you going to
21 see when you - it is just a static motor?
22 MS. WIDDER: Well, it is not a static

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© 2014 330 1 motor. We will get to that. So --
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So you are
3 assuming a motor load curve well based on motor
4 standard -- I'll say motor efficiency of different
5 motor loads?
6 MS. WIDDER: Right. Precisely. So we
7 are trying to account for increased losses at part
8 loading and it is true that -- yes, I'll just stop
9 there.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis had a question or
11 comment.
12 MR. STARR: Well I was going to say
13 Steve I actually went through and did that and it
14 is very little it is like still you are using 70%
15 or 80% of the motor energy when you throttle. And
16 I came up -- it's 85% of the total if you look
17 over the range of normal.
18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But those values are
19 going to be static, you can't - the motor is just
20 still -- those numbers are -- percentages at 75%
21 for that motor is static, they don't change.
22 MS. WIDDER: Well they are applied to

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© 2014 331 1 every pump consistently.
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: Chuck?
4 MR. POWERS: So two questions. One I
5 heard the agreed upon electric motor did not take
6 in consideration the part-loads. If we get a
7 certified motor curve they are only committed to
8 one point. The others could be wherever they need
9 to be. So there could be variability on that.
10 That will kill us.
11 And then number two, I know it is small
12 but it still could be challenging.
13 MR. STARR: She's got a solution.
14 MS. WIDDER: I do.
15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. All right. That
16 is good.
17 And then the second question is --
18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank heavens.
19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I talked about this
20 before one of the other meetings instead of PER we
21 are not just pumping, we also talked about other
22 systems. Getting systems rated rather than

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© 2014 332 1 pumping.
2 MR. ADIN: We defined all that as --
3 MS. WIDDER: So those three gray boxes on
4 the right are a pump for the purposes of appliance
5 standards.
6 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I agree but when
7 somebody sees PER they won't see this. Brought up
8 before about Lot 11, what is in Lot 11. I think
9 it would be better if we don't call it just pump.
10 Because oh, that is just a pump we don't have to
11 worry about the driver and the VFD. I think it is
12 a system related more than it is a pump related.
13 MR. ADIN: So you are just saying that
14 the term might be misleading.
15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: The term might be --
16 the term instead of PER something else.
17 MR. STARR: Pump system.
18 MR. POWERS: Package.
19 MR. FERNSTROM: Energy.
20 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Extended product,
21 EPA.
22 [Laughter]

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© 2014 333 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay. We will consider
2 alternative nomenclature for PER.
3 So here were our issues to discuss from
4 last time. So this was --
5 MR. BROOKMAN: Can you make it bigger?
6 MS. WIDDER: Yep let me expand that. Is
7 that enough?
8 MR. BROOKMAN: that is good enough.
9 MS. WIDDER: So this is the equation is
10 just an example of how the PER might be
11 calculated. LCF on the left applies to a fixed
12 load control factor. It is like a fraction that
13 would be applied for pumps that are controlled. So
14 for example you might assume you get 50% savings
15 from applying a VFD and in that case the load
16 control factor would be .5. And note you are not
17 making an assumption. This is a calculation that
18 we would do. It would be written in the test
19 procedure. Everyone would have that number. The
20 load control factor would be fixed. It is
21 essentially a default number that would be applied
22 across the board to account for the savings from

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© 2014 334 1 controls in the absence of a more rigorous or
2 widely available test procedure.
3 Then the weightings here in the omega
4 terms are not -- well they could be .25 or they
5 could be something else. The P on the numerator
6 is this case the pump shaft brake horsepower that
7 comes out at 40.6 at those load points which are
8 also up for discussion.
9 The motor default efficiency if you had
10 -- so that motor denominator term if you have --
11 we will talk about where that comes from but it
12 could -- it will be the minimally compliant motor
13 efficiency with a loss curve applied to it for
14 bare shaft pump. It will be your motor that you
15 are pairing with the pump if it is more efficient
16 than the minimally compliant pump with motor, the
17 same motor curve -- loss curve applied to it. And
18 in the calculation based approach and then I've
19 just put the hydraulic power as a potential
20 denominator here. There are some other
21 denominator options that I calculated and we can
22 look at how those look. So those are the type of

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© 2014 335 1 things we want to look at.
2 Then these bullets: I break that out in
3 more detail. We want to look at motor losses.
4 I've brought examples of how we might calculate
5 motor losses and how that may work. How to
6 account for controls; I have some calculations for
7 a load control factor to account for different
8 types of equipment. I have two examples and can
9 make a list of other ones we might want to break
10 out. Load points, those are some examples. I
11 have calculations I think of all those examples.
12 But I also have spreadsheets so we can do it in
13 real time if you want to look at something else.
14 And then weighting; we have equal weighting and
15 then I -- I thought I had normal on there also but
16 it seems to have fallen out. But I also have -- I
17 calculated the PER for an example with normal
18 weighting and with two types of normalization.
19 MR. POWERS: Two questions.
20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
21 MR. POWERS: Have you thought, we've
22 been through it but have you thought about a

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© 2014 336 1 factor for the size of the motor rating below the
2 actual pump hp?
3 MS. WIDDER: After --
4 MR. POWERS: If somebody puts a 500
5 horse motor on 100 horse pump versus a 100 horse
6 motor on a 100 horse pump; do you know what I
7 mean?
8 MS. WIDDER: Right. So we do have
9 sizing specifications for the bare shaft pump
10 case. So for my bare shaft pump say it is 50
11 horse, it specifies how to select the motor size
12 and that gives you the standard. Because DOE's
13 standard is specified by motor horsepower bins. So
14 that is prescriptive. For a pump and a motor that
15 is paired and sold in that configuration whatever
16 the horsepower you are pairing with the pump that
17 is what you are going to have to rate it with.
18 And so if you are dramatically over sizing the
19 motor that is going to be reflected in the metric.
20 MR. POWERS: Okay. So the customer has
21 a huge condition that he wants to buy a motor now,
22 a 200 horse that is already part of the

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© 2014 337 1 calculation?
2 MS. WIDDER: Yep. And that will be --
3 that will be reflected. The performance of such a
4 mismatch will be reflected in the metric.
5 MR. POWERS: Is there any loopholes
6 with using BEP rather than -- everybody would know
7 what that is; right?
8 MS. WIDDER: Well we will define all
9 those terms in excruciating detail when we
10 actually write out this test procedure.
11 MR. POWERS: You had the others at .75
12 and I understand what you are using but I just
13 want to make sure nobody is --
14 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Right.
15 MR. POWERS: -- using a 1.02 or
16 something.
17 MS. WIDDER: And to be honest, yes, I
18 think that is a really good point and probably
19 when we finalize this metric I'll start using
20 consistent terminology of adding BEP to all of
21 them or none of them or something like that.
22 MR. BROOKMAN: Charlie?

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© 2014 338 1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Just so I am clear, so
2 the P values that you have in the numerator I
3 think you said those are all shaft horsepower? And
4 the denominator you have P hydro. Can you explain
5 or define when you say P hydro what it means?
6 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. P hydro would be in
7 this example, we talked about some denominator
8 options, one of them was the hydraulic power
9 output.
10 MR. CAPPELLINO: When you say hydraulic
11 power -- 12 MS. WIDDER: So if you were to calculate
13 the efficiency of a pump it is the input, the
14 shaft horsepower over -- or the hydraulic output
15 power over the shaft input power is the
16 efficiency. And so the - - said another way the
17 hydraulic power would be the shaft input power
18 divided by the efficiency of the pump. Does that
19 make sense?
20 MR. CAPPELINO: Yeah. -- in the world
21 of pump designers hydraulic power has another
22 meaning

--

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© 2014 339 1 MS. WIDDER: Okay.
2 MR. CAPPELLINO: -- which is typically
3 the power of the pump minus any mechanical losses
4 or any other auxiliary losses in the additional
5 piping or anything like that. So be careful that
6 we define clearly going forward.
7 MS. WIDDER: That is a good point. Do
8 you have another --
9 MS. WILLIAMS: We are just talking about
10 flow times head. Yes. We should --
11 MR. CAPPELLINO: I bring it up because I
12 had shared this with a colleague and I had to
13 steer him in a different direction because of
14 hydraulic power and again in the pump designer's
15 world that means something.
16 MR. WIDDER: Is there a better term?
17 MR. POWERS: The best example is --
18 Chuck the best example to give you there is I
19 think I have already touched it people make the
20 big mistake on verticals; right. You know Doug
21 sometimes might say Chuck I want to know what the
22 efficiency of a power of that pump is at the

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© 2014 340 1 discharge flange and bowl assembly might be X;
2 right which would be similar to an end suction
3 pump. If you go where that is well the bowl is
4 going to be the same as that but when you take in
5 consideration the lift, the friction, up through
6 that nozzle, say Chuck I am going to compare you
7 to somebody else right at that nozzle. But some
8 go water to water and you still could have some
9 variations; right. So that is part of the
10 challenge that Charlie is mentioning. So vertical
11 versus ends we might have to have different
12 variations for that.
13 MS. WIDDER: Right.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Arnie do you have a
15 comment?
16 MR. STANO: Yes, I've got I guess a
17 question. I had assumed that that P hydro was
18 going to be indexed so that you would account for
19 the different curve shape. So that much like your
20 indexing it at different points above that your
21 flow times head it would be important to denote
22 the curve shape --

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© 2014 341 1 MS. WIDDER: Yes.
2 MR. SDANO: -- so that when you divide
3 it by it it would be the equivalent. So that a
4 pump with a steeper head curve doesn't have
5 problems in comparison because its power is higher
6 at other points.
7 MS. WIDDER: Right.
8 MR. SDANO: So was that what you were
9 thinking too that that would be actually --
10 MS. WIDDER: We could do that. I -- to
11 be honest with you Arnie the denominator
12 discussion is probably the most preliminary of
13 these. We've been doing a lot of our calculations
14 with no denominator and just looking at weighting
15 and the -- basically the numerator term here. And
16 then talking about what the denominator might be.
17 There's a couple of options that we looked at. I
18 think indexing it is another good suggestion that
19 we can consider.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr.
21 MR. STARR: So one of the things I think
22 might be handy is it seems like you want the PER

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© 2014 342 1 to be somewhere between zero and one so you can
2 compare things. If that is the case it seems like
3 P hydro needs to be on the top to get a fraction -
4 - to get something less than one.
5 MS. WIDDER: I mean you will get for P
6 hydro -- so let's not get tied up in the P hydro.
7 I should put like x there or something.
8 MR. STARR: As long as your efficiency
9 number comes out you know your 67% or something.
10 MS. WIDDER: That is a good point it's
11 something we will see in the denominator
12 discussion that for the hydraulic power
13 denominator you do get values greater that one,
14 slightly greater than one. Like 1.2. It is just -
15 - 16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: What kind of range --
17 MS. WIDDER: Well we only looked at the
18 example for one pump. We only did the
19 calculations for one pump. So I couldn't tell
20 you. So we were looking at the variability among
21 denominators for a specific case. We certainly
22 can look at a lot more once we narrow it down a

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© 2014 343 1 little bit.
2 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we are ready to
3 move on to the next slide.
4 MS. WIDDER: Okay. Good. Me too. So
5 this was some other metric actions that came out
6 of the meeting last time. Just to make sure we
7 did it -- we clearly thought that thinking a lot
8 about the PER metric but we wanted to make sure
9 that we had any other options captured out on the
10 table and didn't move forward too hastily. Given
11 that we have now limited ourselves to electric
12 drivers. I have a couple of comments that I added
13 in here. I wrote them out into like sort of like
14 groups. MEI and EEI are used in the EU and the
15 MEI describes the pump only. So that doesn't
16 really meet our purposes. The EEI describes the
17 impact of controls on a specific pump only. So
18 that doesn't really meet our purposes. Some of
19 these other ones GPM versus some sort of energy
20 denominator doesn't account for head component of
21 what a pump is delivering. Similar for the next
22 inverse of that potential metric. And then these

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© 2014 344 1 two options at the bottom of energy per gallons,
2 times feet of head is in fact very similar to what
3 is being accounted for in PER. So yes?
4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
5 I suggested some of these because to me and they
6 kind of follow what Gary presented from
7 California, they are just easier for an end user
8 to understand what you are actually looking at.
9 These pumps are pumping water, okay. How much are
10 they pumping versus how much energy you are
11 getting in it is for the fans it is watts per cfm.
12 For ceiling fans they use a watts per cfm metric.
13 It's cfm per watt. You know PER is a very
14 sophisticated way of saying, these are just a very
15 easy way of saying it. Just a matter of how much
16 education is needed in the marketplace for various
17 types of efficiency metrics. The higher you go
18 the more education is going to be needed for a lot
19 of end users, the end use customer. I still get
20 calls at EEI about what is a SEER, S-E-E-R. That
21 has only been around for 25 years. So you know
22 the beauty -- there is a sophistication versus a

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© 2014 345 1 beauty of simplicity of understandability. So I
2 know it is not what the Europeans are doing but
3 again it is just a matter of at least it is on the
4 table for everyone's consideration that in terms
5 of test procedure I don't know what is easier but
6 again the beauty of it is to me it is - those
7 other ones are understandable.
8 MR. POTTS: This is Doug. I just have a
9 comment. Shouldn't the units be total hours per
10 gallon as opposed to gallons per minute?
11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I am just throwing out
12 different ways you might be able to test it. Maybe
13 you are testing it based on gallons per minute.
14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
15 MR. POTTS: That is - the slash is
16 intended to mean an either or; is that --
17 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Exactly.
19 MR. POTTS: Thank you.
20 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So that is a good
21 point. Simplicity is good, helps people
22 understand. One thing I thought about especially

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© 2014 346 1 with these bottom metrics and something that is an
2 energy per output of some sort is that it might be
3 confusing since we are trying to calculate an
4 average of multiple rating points that -- and then
5 you are giving someone a number that is -- a
6 simplistic reading is generally verified to a
7 single rating point.
8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: A weighted average of
9 all these then.
10 MS. WIDDER: Right.
11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: It could be summation
12 of or whatever you want to say the weighted
13 average KWH for whatever.
14 MS. WIDDER: Right. Which is sort of
15 what we're doing.
16 MR. POWERS: Sarah. Chuck. I am still
17 struggling with the MEI. That has got to be part
18 of this?
19 MS. WIDDER: It is.
20 MR. POWERS: And it has got to be a
21 major factor. You know on the sheet we are going
22 to be measuring by MEI forms whether it is 10% or

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© 2014 347 1 40% whatever. So MEI is a very critical aspect for
2 the pump only. Probably the only one.
3 MS. WIDDER: It is implicit in the
4 metric.
5 MR. POWER: That is --
6 MR. CAPPELLINO: It is the only.
7 MR. POWER: There for the bare pump.
8 MS. WIDDER: No we will be applying PER
9 -- well the proposal is that PER will be
10 calculated as the metric for certification for
11 bare pumps, pumps sold with motors and pumps sold
12 with motors and controls. Any product that we are
13 discussing in this rule making would have this --
14 MR. CAPPELLNO: So I think the MEI is
15 the only pertinent piece of information when you
16 are judging of that pump because everything else
17 is finished.
18 MR. STARR: Well the VFD is not. If you
19 had a VFD or dell it will change your PER rating.
20 MR. POWER: But we are saying.
21 MS. WIDDER: For a bare pump.
22 MR. CAPPELLINO: I am saying shipping a

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© 2014 348 1 bare pump.
2 MS. WIDDER: Right. If you are shipping
3 a bare pump --
4 MR. CAPPELLINO: So we are certifying a
5 bare pump.
6 MS. WIDDER: If you are shipping a bare
7 pump it would go back to -- let's actually move
8 on. If you are shipping a bare pump I am going to
9 fly by here. So here we are at a bare pump
10 example. So these are the calculations. Actually
11 I will go back and do these a little bit. So I
12 have examples here for the calculation methods for
13 a bare shaft pump, pump with motor and pump with
14 motor controls. And then later on I have test
15 methods that could also be applied, instead be
16 applied, we talked about that.
17 MR. POWERS: The test methods --
18 MS. WIDDER: But there is no bare pump
19 test method you will note.
20 MR. POWERS: There has got to be.
21 MS. WIDDER: There is. It is 40.6. But
22 we will see how that fits. So for every pump,

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© 2014 349 1 every pump regardless of how you sell it you will
2 determine the BEP flow rate. That will be the
3 first step. You test it and according to 40.6, 7
4 points, sweep -- to maximum flow rate or the point
5 specified in 40.6. You record head, rotational
6 speed, torque, and following table into a power,
7 torque times speed, output power is flow rate
8 times head times specific weight of fluid and
9 which the water is one generally and then
10 efficiency is the output power of the input power.
11 MR. POWER: So if the spec allows up to
12 120 degrees you may have the --
13 MS. WIDDER: So in 40.6 the temperature
14 range of water is limited between 10 and 30
15 degrees Celsius for the example that we did.
16 MR. CAPPELLINO: Did you try -- density
17 is included in the calculation of head in the --
18 anyway so --
19 MR. SDANO: No it is not.
20 MS. WIDDER: No.
21 MR. SDANO: There is a restricted
22 temperature range so we just used one.

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© 2014 350 1 MR. CAPPELLINO: Well why is that
2 implicit?
3 MR. SDANO: Only because if you're --
4 well it is included if you have something like
5 salt water that you are testing.
6 MR. CAPPELLINO: You are saying density
7 is included in the calculation but is always
8 assumed to be same value?
9 MR. SDANO: It is fresh water. It is
10 one. Yes. Density definitely is in there Charlie.
11 MR. CAPPELLINO: Yeah.
12 MR. SDANO: But not because of the
13 temperature range.
14 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. Not only the
15 temperature but these are oversimplifications just
16 in general. I mean these aren't the actual
17 equations. The actual equations will be those
18 that you are looking at in 40.6 Charlie. And so I
19 think that is a good point. But just in general
20 what specific test points. You are not measuring
21 density. You are also not measuring a specific
22 weight of fluid but in general one of the inputs

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© 2014 351 1 or outputs of 40.6 that then would be used to
2 establish the BEP at the pump is what this slide
3 was trying to get at. Does that work? Okay.
4 So then once you have this table. This
5 is actual test data we had. You can see that we
6 are not right on the test points but we are pretty
7 close. And the BEP was found by determining the
8 maximum of the best fit curve of efficiency with
9 respect to flow rate. So you find a trend line
10 and there are requirements around the trend line
11 that is applied to the data of efficiency versus
12 flow and then find the maximum of that curve. That
13 is your BEP.
14 MR. POWERS: So -- this is Chuck. SO if
15 we have pumps that have the bulls eye efficiency.
16 MS. WIDDER: Yep.
17 MR. POWERS: -- where medium trim might
18 be BEP then we would take into account trimming it
19 to get the best efficiency?
20 MS. WIDDER: The proposal at this time
21 is that all pumps are sold at full impeller
22 diameter only. Well not sold. I am sorry. That

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© 2014 352 1 was a misstatement. Take that back. All pumps
2 are certified -- certified at full impeller
3 diameter only. Sold in whatever configuration they
4 are sold in.
5 MR. POWERS: For many more years that
6 you've been alive --
7 MS. WIDDER: Yes.
8 MR. POWERS: For many more years than
9 you've been alive systems and process require
10 certain cost to have BEP at a bulls eye rather
11 than a max diameter.
12 MS. WIDDER: That's --
13 MR. POWERS: So we are going to change
14 the industry to do this now?
15 MS. WIDDER: The alternative is to
16 certify pumps at many impeller trends which would
17 be very burdensome.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: So, this is Alison. It is
19 going to be -- the standard will be set based on
20 the data we've collected. So you said there are
21 pumps in the data that have lower efficiency --
22 MR. POWER: Higher efficiency.

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© 2014 353 1 MS. WILLIAMS: No but at full impeller
2 diameter you are saying they would have lower
3 efficiency than a trim in the data base so we can
4 account for that.
5 MS. WIDDER: Well and the other thing in
6 the way that we've been thinking about similar to
7 EU is that it would specify that the pump is
8 certified -- it could be specified that the pump
9 is certified at the largest -- or at the greatest
10 diameter for which that pump is offered for sale.
11 So if --
12 MR. POWER: I am trying to think of a
13 practical side; right. Just on analytical --
14 MR. SDANO: Charlie, Arnie Sdano
15 Pentair. When we had this discussion internally at
16 Pentair what do we do just for the case that you
17 have it. And we said well one way around this
18 would be to clear this new model that is only
19 available with this slightly trimmed impeller if,
20 in fact, there is a sufficient efficiency gain for
21 it.
22 MS. WIDDER: Which is --which would meet

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© 2014 354 1 the -- you know if we define full trim or full
2 diameter as the large diameter for which that
3 model is sold that would comply. So we can
4 revisit this tomorrow because I think that will be
5 necessary.
6 MR. POWER: We have -- I am saying --
7 this is Chuck. We have people at the table that
8 run plants or --- customers of plants and they
9 want impellers with BEP further down for a lot of
10 reasons. They start out systems where they want
11 more head and as time goes they want less or they
12 change their system or VFD drive whole variations.
13 So what is going to happen now is those pumps will
14 be obsolete under this concept because we won't be
15 able to full diameter and meet the criteria and it
16 was designed for a specific reason. You know I am
17 not challenging --
18 MS. WIDDER: You could still
19 theoretically - - I mean even if it is lower
20 efficiency it can still theoretically pass
21 standards.
22 MR. POWERS: The scary part he said was

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© 2014 355 1 we will develop a new pump so to speak with a
2 different trend. That adds complications to
3 additional testing, work --
4 MR. HANDZEL: So just understanding --
5 Mark Handzel. So they want that bulls eye down
6 there because in case they need to add some
7 capacity in the future they have room to do it; is
8 that why you are saying --
9 MR. POWERS: There is that. There are
10 system reasons. I mean not to mention what
11 industry, what product it varies a lot.
12 MR. HANDZEL: Because we've been
13 designing a lot of pumps lately and we're trying
14 to squeeze every point out that we can.
15 MR. POWERS: Right.
16 MR. HANDZEL: And it is moving that
17 bulls eye up to where Sarah and --- were talking
18 about. So
19

-- 20 MR. POWERS: Well remember you can move
21 the bulls eye up that just means you are going to
22 get higher flow and higher head and really we

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© 2014 356 1 should just go to a bigger pump instead of messing
2 with that. So now you've ruined that one --
3 MR. HANDZEL: I wouldn't say ruining it
4 because obviously we are staying within an
5 envelope so we can have a pretty --
6 MR. POWER: I am just trying to make
7 sure that we think these through --
8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. Let me
9 note that this is intended to be something of an
10 overview and we are going to dive deeper tomorrow.
11 Steve?
12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock of
13 EEI. Just out of curiosity do you have the motor
14 kw of that is under the data --
15 MS. WIDDER: Not for the rating of a
16 bare pump.
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.
18 MS. WIDDER: That is not measured.
19 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. True but when you
20 -- by the -- standard let's say a 50 horsepower
21 motor that is matched to a 100 bhp, let's say it
22 is a 50 horsepower motor could you fill in a

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© 2014 357 1 column that says -- I will just say estimated kw
2 based on a single motor?
3 MS. WIDDER: Yes.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: This is Alison. Can I
5 just add that Sarah had sixty slides or something
6 and can we keep going and some of your questions
7 will be answered.
8 MS. WIDDER: Right. And the other thing
9 I will say on BEP -- do you want to say -- okay.
10 Okay. So the other thing I will say on BEP with
11 reading the pumps at different trims is this was
12 something that was consistent with the EU and is
13 something that we had considered as a compromise
14 between rating and certifying products and
15 reasonableness of applying this construct. So if
16 there is alternative proposals I think that would
17 be great. But in absence of that we are just
18 going to move forward with this at this time
19 anyway.
20 MR. BROOKMAN: Move forward on that
21 slide.
22 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So now we are to the

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© 2014 358 1 bare pump. So we just established this box on the
2 right, our pump performance data from testing in
3 accordance with 40.6 which we just discussed. And
4 then the two other components here are
5 standardized lower efficiency and accounting for
6 part-loading and standardized controls performance
7 perhaps. The issues on the bottom here because it
8 is a bare pump we are going to be applying
9 calculations for both of those components. We are
10 going to assume a standard motor, an a/c induction
11 NEMA design B open enclosure that would be
12 specified in the test procedure. Everybody does
13 that if they are selling a bare pump. We would
14 specify the sizing as I mentioned that the
15 horsepower used will be the next horsepower above
16 the brake horsepower at 120% of BEP. So for this
17 pump that we have sample data for the flow at 120%
18 -- or the shaft power 120% of BEP would be around
19 55 and so that in case you would round up to 60
20 and you would pair it with the 60 horsepower motor
21 which in fact what it is paired with.
22 MR. POWERS: So the question -- so we

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© 2014 359 1 have customers that say we know -- well I will say
2 two things what if you have a curve that is rising
3 and the horsepower is shut off and that will run
4 out everything you could actually have a smaller
5 motor. Or what if you have a customer that says
6 look I know that the run out is 120 higher but I
7 am okay sizing it at the BEP.
8 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. You are getting
9 ahead of me because this is a bare pump. There is
10 no motor attached to this pump.
11 MR. POWER: But you are making a rule on
12 the ones --
13 MS. WIDDER: No for a bare pump. I am
14 just selling a bare pump. Just -- don't think
15 about pairing these motors at all. We just have a
16 pump. I don't have a motor on it. And so I need
17 to look up a number for my motor efficiency to
18 calculate the PER. And so this is just how to --
19 there is a table, there is a table in the CFR that
20 has motor size bins and in order to make sure
21 everyone is using the exact same number, I don't
22 know why the screen went black, --

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© 2014 360 1 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: It is a sign.
2 MS. WIDDER: -- oh there we go. Okay.
3 It is a sign. So this is just for the bare pump
4 case. We would be assigning for every size the
5 standard motor assumption is the same. But it has
6 no bearing on the actual motor, physical motor
7 that is paired with that bare pump. And then the
8 poles would be assigned based on speed at which
9 the pump is being rated. So I am going to go
10 through this example. Is that okay Steve or do
11 you have --
12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm just thinking again
13 just conceptually if it is a bare pump why are you
14 assuming a control when a bare pump is paired with
15 a control.
16 MS. WIDDER: Okay. So that is a good
17 point and something worth discussing. Here if we
18 could neglect it since we are just assuming 100%
19 efficiency and we are essentially multiplying by
20 one. It is back to this equation if you want to
21 apply the same PER equation to all pumps we would
22 want to specify a load control factor even for the

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© 2014 361 1 bare pump case if it is the same equation and that
2 load control factor would just be one
3 theoretically in this case. Or it could be
4 something different than one that might account
5 for efficiency of theoretical controls. But I
6 agree we have done all of our calculations
7 agreeing -- assuming that the controls
8 "performance" is not accounted for, it is one. It
9 is just there as an opportunity for discussion and
10 the same construction for each equipment.
11 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis Starr?
12 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr, NEEA. I
13 would prefer that maybe standardized controls be
14 throttling a pump because that is a typical way of
15 controlling flow when you have a VFD application.
16 If you don't have a VFD --
17 MS. WIDDER: Right.
18 MR. STARR: -- you just throttle your
19 pump. That could be the base standardized control
20 and it wouldn't be one. It would be less than
21 one.
22 MS. WIDDER: It is. I am going to move

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© 2014 362 1 forward. I am going to break this discussion now
2 and move forward to the example. I think this
3 will help. Okay. So we have a bare pump and after
4 we rated our pump we had that data and we've
5 determined the brake horsepower at these four load
6 points. And these are potential load points. AS
7 I discussed earlier there might be others that
8 we'll consider. And I have sensitivity analysis
9 around that at the end.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Although we generally
11 endorsed these load points at our last meeting.
12 MS. WIDDER: I felt confident
13 moving forward with these example calculations
14 using 50, 75, 100, and
15 110.
16 MR BROOKMAN: Yes.
17 MS. WIDDER: So here are the flow
18 rates. You see the flow rates and the brake
19 horsepower at those load points. The brake
20 horsepower was obtained from the best fit curve of
21 brake horsepower versus flow rate in this case
22 assuming you are within a tolerance around the

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© 2014 363 1 rate point. So that would be one way if 40.6
2 doesn't -- if you are not right on 50 how you
3 determine the brake -- you don't have hit the
4 point exactly we can allow for some interpolation.
5 That was what was done in this case. So those
6 brake horsepower in the right hand column would go
7 into these P 50, 75, BEP and 1.1 values that are
8 circled. And then there they are plugged in in the
9 next equation. And the equal weighting. And then
10 you can see the LCF on the left. This is
11 representative of throttle based to your point
12 Louis the load control factor would be one in this
13 case.
14 So now we have to plug in -- the next
15 step here is plug in the motor efficiency. So
16 this is going to be talking through our approach
17 for motor efficiency. So we sized the motor to be
18 -- in this case 120% of BEP flow was 53.65
19 horsepower; we rounded up to 60 horsepower for a
20 four pole motor rated -- with a rate above 60,
21 full load efficiency from DOE's standard tables is
22 93.6%. So that is the full load efficiency for

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© 2014 364 1 the motor in this case.
2 To account for motor losses at decreased
3 loading we've come up with a method where you can
4 assess the losses at each load point based on a
5 fractional loading of the motor. So to do that we
6 first calculate this term Xi that is the load
7 point divided by the size of the motor. So for --
8 this is for the BEP example, this equation here:
9 50.65 was our brake power at BEP and 60 is the
10 size of the motor and then we have a loading of
11 the motor of 84.4%. And you can do that
12 theoretically for each of the four points.
13 And then from that load fraction and we
14 put it into this quadratic curve we have to
15 calculate this Yi term that is the -- we're
16 calling it the load loss factor. And this will
17 make more sense once I get to the next table. So
18 once we have the load loss factor, we multiply the
19 load loss factor at each point by the full rated
20 loss which is something you calculate when you are
21 rating a motor. So the full load rated losses is
22 basically I think of it as the inverse of

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© 2014 365 1 efficiency. If you have a 95% efficiency motor
2 then you have 5% about of losses. It is not
3 exactly that but it is standard losses and core
4 losses and winding losses and all different things
5 that are decreasing your efficiency in the motor
6 those are captured in the full load losses. So if
7 you multiply that times the Yi at each part
8 loading I have a quadratic of this which will
9 help. Here it is. So here is our polynomial how
10 we generated it. So this is full loading down to
11 a fractional loading. We had data down to 25%
12 loading of motors. This is Motor Master data. And
13 this is the quadratic we came up with. We chose
14 the most conservative case. And so at each load
15 point as you are moving down this curve you are
16 going to have increased -- you are going to have a
17 higher loss associated with decreased loading. So
18 that is accounted for here. Here is our bare
19 shaft horsepower. Here is our fractional loading
20 of the motor. It is as it is decreasing with the
21 loading of the pump. Here is the part- load
22 factor. It is also decreasing. And you can see

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© 2014 366 1 it is also decreasing as we go down, it is similar
2 to the load fraction but has different shape and
3 the fractional loss load loss is then this number
4 times the full rated losses in -- for this pump it
5 was like 4.12 horsepower or something like that.
6 So you have a little bit less than the full rated
7 losses here. And then the fractional input power
8 is this fractional load loss plus the bare shaft
9 horsepower at each point.
10 MR. BROOKMAN: Al Huber?
11 MS. WIDDER: It is sort of complicated I
12 know.
13 MR. HUBER: It is. Okay. But the
14 purpose here is for us to be able to measure or at
15 least give the consumer some difference between
16 what products are out there and some way to look
17 at it; right?
18 MS. WIDDER: Right.
19 MR. HUBER: We've got load factors that
20 we decided we are going to use 25 across the board
21 which we all know is not correct but it doesn't
22 really matter --

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© 2014 367 1 MS. WIDDER: Right.
2 MR. HUBER: -- as long as everybody uses
3 the same one.
4 MS. WIDDER: Uh-huh.
5 MR. HUBER: Right?
6 MS. WIDDER: Right.
7 MR. HUBER: Because then everybody is
8 even. Why not just use the full load efficiency on
9 the motor all the way across this thing. What is
10 the difference?
11 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. So we did the
12 calculations both ways.
13 MR. HUBER: It doesn't really matter
14 does it as long as we are judging everybody the
15 same way does it really matter?
16 MS. WIDDER: It will --
17 MR. HUBER: It might in your cost
18 analysis but it probably will not in any measure.
19 MS. WIDDER: So the way this might
20 matter

--
21 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Blow that out of
22 the water.

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© 2014 368 1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear --
2 MR. ECKMAN: You want this --
3 MS. WIDDER: You do want this?
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah, keep going.
5 MS. WIDDER: You want this. So I am
6 going to --
7 MR ECKMAN: A present under your tree.
8 MS. WIDDER: It will help. So the most
9 important reasons for doing this and making it
10 conservative -- let me keep going here --
11 MR. ECKMAN: So you can pass and do
12 better.
13 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Tom's ahead of us. So
14 we are really conservative, so essentially this is
15 the worst losses. You are buying the worst motor
16 that can minimally comply with DOE and has the
17 worst efficiency drop off that we could find in
18 the Motor Master database. So then if you apply
19 the calculation or a distributor applies the
20 calculation method to your bare shaft pump and you
21 wanted to rate your combined pump plus motor you'd
22 need a wire to water test you would always do

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© 2014 369 1 better than this. And we have some examples of
2 that.
3 MR. HUBER: That is not a bad thing --
4 [Laughter]
5 MR. HUBER: Let me ask you another
6 questions. You are only going to do it for the
7 middle
8

-- 9 MS. WIDDER: No, no. We are going to do
10 it for the pump -- yes, motor losses will be
11 applied in every case.
12 MR. HUBER: Yes. But you will have
13 those tables.
14 MS. WIDDER: Yep.
15 MR. HUBER: Okay. Or premium of
16 whatever is out on the market.
17 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah you have about ten
18 minutes so keep going.
19 MS. WIDDER: Okay.
20 MR. ECKMAN: Al's happy.
21 MR. HUBER: We'll see.
22 MS. WIDDER: Good. So for the bare pump

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© 2014 370 1 -- I think this will actually speed up. So for
2 the bare pump plus motor case there are
3 theoretically two options that we just discussed.
4 You can do A which is essentially what we just
5 talked about except for this is manufacturer motor
6 data not DOE minimum standard data or you can do a
7 wire to water test for the calculations -- we are
8 just talking about calculations. We are just
9 talking about A right now. We will talk about B
10 later.
11 In this case it is exactly the same
12 construct except for it is the measured motor
13 efficiency now at each of these load points and in
14 this case we assumed the 95% efficient motor. And
15 this is the full load rated or the full load
16 losses of that motor. We have the same data over
17 here. The fractional load loss has gone down in
18 this case. And then we have fractional input
19 power that has gone down from before and we have a
20 PER of 45.08 if we don't have a denominator
21 compared to before we had 45.76. So our PER has
22 gone down which is better as we've calculated it

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© 2014 371 1 here. If we throw a denominator on this all goes
2 - but essentially in general the PER is better and
3 has accounted for a more efficient motor.
4 MS. WALTNER: Can I ask a question.
5 MS. WIDDER: Yeah.
6 MS. WALTNER: So you said that the
7 measured motor but that is actually the rated
8 efficiency.
9 MS. WIDDER: Rated. Yes. Rated would
10 be a better term. I was differentiating it from
11 default which is what I used before.
12 MS. WALTNER: Okay.
13 MS. WIDDER: It has been measured by
14 something just not in this test procedure.
15 MS. WALTNER: Yes.
16 MS. WIDDER: Yes. Good point.
17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, EEI.
18 You're still -- the pump is still a 60 horsepower
19 ODP motor right?
20 MS. WIDDER: It is whatever motor -- in
21 this particular case?
22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes.

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© 2014 372 1 MS. WIDDER: The motor that this
2 pump was tested with this example is a 60
3 horsepower
4 ODP.
5 MR. ROSENSTOCK: okay.
6 MS. WIDDER: But if a pump was sold with
7 a 60 horse enclosed motor or a 75 horse enclosed
8 motor that is what would be plugged in here. And
9 then what would happen is these load fractions
10 would go down.
11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.
12 MS. WIDDER: And your part load loss
13 factors would go down.
14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And again maybe I am
15 thinking too far ahead I am just kind of curious
16 what that would do to the PER?
17 MS. WIDDER: So actually I did some
18 sensitivity around that, it is really minor. On
19 my look --
20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: So the numbers are
21 about the same?
22 MS. WIDDER: Very similar. So if you

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© 2014 373 1 have over -- I can tell you exactly what they are.
2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: No, no. We don't need
3 to see the numbers yet. But it just -- so the --
4 I'll say if you paired this pump with a 75 horse
5 power motor and the PER is about the same or a
6 little less I am just thinking that you know again
7 if this is a metric being used then all of a
8 sudden there might be a push if people are saying
9 oh, lower is better. Well go to 100 horsepower
10 your PER goes even lower. I mean and again I am
11 just thinking about the possible consequences of
12 it if the numbers turn out that way. Again I don't
13 know.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Greg Case.
15 MR. CASE: I'm thinking cost is going to
16 drive you --
17 MS. WIDDER: Yes. People will continue
18 to buy equipment that is properly sized for their
19 application. That is something worth considering
20 potentially. We could also -- because we are
21 specifying the motor loss curve right now it is
22 based on Motor Master data. But there may be a

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© 2014 374 1 way to account for in that quadratic formula some
2 sort of penalty for significant over sizing or
3 something like that.
4 MR. BROOKMAN: Sarah you are doing
5 really well.
6 MS. WIDDER: Yes.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: You have five minutes. So
8 summarize your remaining slides.
9 MS. WIDDER: Okay. I will do that.
10 MR. BROODMAN: Remaining 40.
11 MS. WIDDER: We will have all these
12 slides later to talk to you tomorrow. This is all
13 we are going to do all day tomorrow. Aren't you
14 looking forward to that?
15 So if we just move on to the controls
16 example quickly we have the same construct that we
17 had before except for now instead of going along
18 the pump curve we are going along the system curve
19 and one thing I will note is that now these P
20 shaft power values not all of them are coming out
21 of 40.6 because 40.6 is only at the rated speed as
22 it currently exists. And there are our slides.

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© 2014 375 1 So this light green dot at BEP is the
2 only value that will be used for this case when
3 sold with controls. These darker green dots will
4 be calculated based on an assumed system PER. So
5 we will see how that works. So this is the basis
6 -- oh go ahead. Let's not do that. Okay.
7 So let's just in general the rest will
8 not do other estimates. In general we will talk
9 about the load control factors tomorrow and how
10 that works. It is basically like an EEI type idea.
11 It will be applied similarly. We also have some
12 testing examples to look through. And then at the
13 very back of your slide packet there will be some
14 sensitivity around the points, the curves, the
15 weightings and the denominator options and how
16 that looks. So yes?
17 MR. CAPPELLINO: I would like to spend
18 more time talking about what we do with the PER
19 number.
20 MS. WIDDER: Yes.
21 MR. CAPPELLINO: Is that a regulated, a
22 metric view -- is that metric used for labeling?

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© 2014 376 1 MS. WIDDER: Yeah. I think we can have a
2 more significant discussion about that tomorrow.
3 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Charlie. Now
4 Bob has a question.
5 MR. BOTELER: My question is as motor
6 manufacturers scramble to deliver ECM --- and
7 other permanent magnet motors -- is there going to
8 be another table that we need to develop. We
9 don't have tables for -- today, we don't have test
10 standards or a metric for it today.
11 MS. WIDDER: Yes. So the way I can
12 think of that applying to this construct is that
13 we could have different loss curves for different
14 motors. Or if it's -- in the case of ECM we've
15 been thinking about that as actually a control
16 strategy rather than just a motor so that would
17 apply the pump plus motor plus control test
18 procedure. And we would develop in this construct
19 a load control factor representative of the
20 benefits of ECM -- of an ECM --
21 MR. BOTELER: So you'd have a load
22 control factor but each manufacturer would -- each

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© 2014 377 1 motor manufacturer would provide his own curve?
2 MS. WIDDER: Well that would be
3 something we'd have to discuss. The simple way
4 would be everybody's ECM would get the same. If
5 you are a pump manufacturer that is the easiest.
6 If the second more complex way would be that there
7 is another way of calculating or specifying a more
8 complicated way of specifying the load control
9 factor for different types of -- or
10 differentiating different ECMs, different controls
11 within a given control. I will talk about that
12 tomorrow in the two examples that I have.
13 MR. BOTELER: All right. Thank you.
14 MR. BROOKMAN: Final questions before we
15 call it a day?
16 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Eight o'clock
17 tomorrow?
18 MR. BROOKMAN: So just to confirm
19 tomorrow we will be in - back in 8E. Yes, 8:00
20 tomorrow, someone will be there to let everyone --
21 check everyone in, give you a badge early on 7:15
22 or so so that you can grab a cup of coffee before

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© 2014 378 1 we start at
2 8:00.
3 I just want to congratulate everyone. We
4 had a tremendously productive day. It is a real
5 breakthrough to establish scope. And I really
6 appreciate everybody working together so
7 wonderfully, harmoniously, effectively as the day
8 went on.
9 Closing comments from anyone before we
10 head out of here?
11 Thanks everyone. See you at 8:00 a.m.
12 tomorrow in 8E.
13 (WHEREUPON, the meeting adjourned
14 for the day at 4:40 p.m.)
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
221
2
3 

### Capital Reporting Company Conunercial/Industrial Pumps Working Group 03-26-2014

CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION

4 I, CHERYL LASELLE, hereby certify that I am
S not the Court Reporter who reported the proceeding
6 and that I have typed the transcript of the

7 proceeding using the Court Reporter's notes and 8 recordings. The foregoing/attached transcript
9 

### is a true, correct and complete transcription 

### of the
10 proceedings.

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© 2014 202:1,2 205:10,12 214:3 276:14 284:6 2% 17:18 18:5 103:18 175:1 2,000 133:15 134:3 2,874 35:15,16 2.0 143:13 2.6 169:12 2:55 272:4 20 227:11 266:14 20% 13:4 200 35:4 74:18 336:22 2000 70:12 72:6 78:21,22 79:3,10 89:14 93:17 126:12 2007 286:8,9 2008 286:9,13,17 2013 285:11 2014 1:11 3:15 206:18 2020 148:17 20585 1:14 22 170:22 171:11 22% 163:11 173:16 23 31:2 23,000 57:11 24 71:12 75:5 135:3 170:21 171:9 290:7 24,406 36:11 247 34:17 25 95:18,22 134:9 177:15 266:8 290:9 321:14 328:10,11 334:4 344:21 366:20 25% 173:16 365:11 2520 159:9 25s 327:15,16 26 1:11 3:15 277 34:18 2800 77:22 29 142:1 29.8 142:2

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5 5 105:17 262:16 333:16 5% 365:2 5,311 32:20 34:14 5,815 34:16 5.09 134:22 5.9 169:12 50 32:15 132:12 259:3,6 266:9 280:21 286:1 336:10 356:20,22 362:14 363:2,7 50% 36:14 69:12 92:9 128:14 132:18 159:2,3,6,7 173:5,6 175:4 279:22 280:1 327:18 333:14 50,424 36:12

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acres 290:18

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© 2014 across 19:11 98:22 103:11 121:11 164:9 333:22 366:20 367:9 act 245:21 action 193:19 253:20 actions 14:18 343:5 activities 268:2 289:3 actual 74:7 92:17 109:14 158:19 254:1 262:17 264:13 289:3 291:6 325:15 336:2 350:16,17 351:5 360:6 actually 10:18 11:11 13:17 26:12 28:14 30:1 32:14 34:17 48:10 50:9 55:15 58:11 74:2 85:3 86:9 87:12 97:2 102:8 106:19 111:13 113:20,22 114:1,11 115:19 116:15 159:9,11 160:18 164:21 176:20 179:17 180:6 181:11 194:13 211:15 218:20 220:11,15,20 221:14,15 229:1 234:5 237:18 238:8,22 250:20 256:21 259:19 262:20 284:21 285:8,20,21 289:14,15,17 296:5 313:20 316:10,22 317:1 322:10 325:11 330:13 337:10 341:9 344:8 348:7,10 359:4 370:1 371:7 372:17 376:15 adapt 168:17 add 15:6 26:7,10 35:2 36:19 54:11 83:11 91:17 92:21 105:4 134:17 135:1 139:14 157:2 170:18 181:18 196:12 211:13 227:6 229:3 238:4 245:7 258:20 323:11 355:6 357:5 added 97:20 145:5 217:1 265:19 277:14 320:14,16 343:12 adding 134:20 222:4 337:20 addition 9:9 95:11 204:10 256:12 310:1 additional 14:17 29:12 32:15 43:12 53:8 54:17 55:6,7 91:16 136:7 146:14 154:14 169:2 175:9,13,14 181:15 206:8 270:10 339:4

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Certifications 244:11 certified 248:17 250:19 278:9,11 331:7 352:2 353:8,9 certify 326:14,18 352:16 379:4 certifying 317:1 348:4 357:14 cetera 13:4 183:7 298:20 cfm 344:11,12,13 CFR 259:3,6 359:19 chain 120:17 chairman 283:3 challenge 340:10 challenging 331:12 354:17 chance 5:21 117:3 252:21 253:22 change 25:3 28:2,9,19 31:1,10 88:1 92:10 97:22 104:12 123:1 141:12 200:18 224:18 278:19 291:16 320:16 323:10 330:21 347:19 352:13 354:12 changed 131:19 133:14 134:3,8,9 314:22 320:15 changes 89:14 102:18 121:3,7,17 134:4,5,11,12,14 ,15 162:22 253:14 255:20 311:3 changing 121:14 231:20 channels 15:13 characteristic 254:12 264:6 characteristics 248:14 254:13,16 charge 155:22 Charles 2:4 Charlie 4:14 21:6 46:8 58:3 67:9,10 83:8,9 85:15 100:17 101:20 104:4 111:5 112:15 143:22 152:22 208:7 210:9,10 211:13 212:15 250:11 251:8,11 256:6,7 264:7,8 318:12 319:2 327:9 328:8 337:22 340:10 350:10,18 353:14 376:3 Charlie's 283:13 chart 21:8 41:4,6 56:22 166:7 167:15 303:1 308:14 315:15 cheapest 209:19 check 42:9 43:1 96:3 147:1 259:13 377:21

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© 2014 circulator 8:10 62:19 84:9 137:22 138:1,2 139:1 142:1 145:17 146:19 151:9,20 166:21 178:5 192:22 193:17 196:2 202:17 206:11 circulators 8:19 62:5,7,8 104:9 117:7,22 118:2,3 119:9 135:19,21 136:17 138:22 140:13 143:5 150:15 151:6,13,20 153:13 157:10 158:2 159:12 160:13 165:14 168:14 170:21 171:10,21 172:7,10,15 173:8 174:20 175:16 176:3 177:9 180:2 181:4,14,21 182:1 183:16 186:12,14,19 187:20 189:21 190:11,17 191:20 194:1,2 201:5,19 204:8 213:7 cited 287:2 claim 263:14 clarification 17:16 25:19 26:2 35:10 107:16 218:20 clarifications 254:20 clarified 279:9

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© 2014 combining 24:17 325:20

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© 2014 decimal 170:17 decision 30:4 129:2,8,19 228:10,16 decisions 58:11 102:8 130:10 168:4 174:15 184:16 283:9 deck 310:12 312:17 decline 108:6,20 197:22 declining 197:18 decreased 364:2 365:17 decreasing 365:5,20,22 366:1 dedicated 195:20 198:10 199:3,17 200:2 204:11 206:11 213:5 deep 97:8 182:2 deeper 356:10 default 100:7 101:4 333:21 334:9 371:11 defeating 239:8 defer 119:11 define 9:3 19:13 31:17 199:15 213:18,20 248:7 257:17 262:4 276:18 277:8 322:15 326:22 337:8 338:5 339:6 354:1 defined 8:7 35:7 195:15 258:7 274:14 275:14,16,17 304:6 319:3 332:2 defines 19:10 256:21 defining 263:5 269:14,20 276:20 definitely 62:7 88:1 186:15 263:2 270:4 322:13 350:10 definition 9:4 20:15 198:14 244:22 245:6 248:5,13 253:2,5 256:12 257:6 258:5,10 260:17 262:18 265:21 267:3,21,22 268:4 269:20,21 271:18 275:16,22 298:2,17 303:4 319:18 322:1,14 definitions 213:17 243:15 250:14 275:11 303:14 degradation 108:9 degree 75:17 degrees 266:14 275:18 349:12,15 deliberations 186:3 deliver 273:15 376:6 delivering 343:21

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© 2014 94:19 98:15 146:13 149:11 180:17 227:12 281:7 335:3 337:9 detailed 229:19 240:20 312:22 details 20:19 199:22 301:12 316:2 318:14 determination 194:12 determine 13:18 15:12 17:13 40:1 44:12 69:5 149:1 262:4 349:2 363:3 determined 245:2 362:5 determining 14:20 25:7 120:8 129:5 351:7 develop 152:10 167:18 249:4 355:1 376:8,18 developed 33:8 developing 146:2 167:14 development 233:18 282:20 devote 11:2 dewatering 212:9 diagram 12:15 diameter 110:17,18,21 113:6 114:22 215:18 351:22 352:3,11 353:2,10 354:2,15

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© 2014 284:19 301:19 305:21 310:18 326:9,21 327:14 334:8 341:12 342:12 353:15 361:9 362:1 376:2 discussions 26:1 121:22 148:10 164:16 displacement 260:5 261:19 disregarding 267:7 dissolved 266:9 270:11 distinction 226:15 distinctive 206:5 distinguish 194:6 195:19 199:4 distinguished 248:15 distinguishing 254:12,13 distribute 95:8 147:14 distributed 125:18 318:20 326:20 distribution 15:13 19:1 23:10 113:14 149:12,20 distributions 94:5,14 distributor 319:3 322:16,19 368:19 district 148:17 dive 151:19,20 182:2 230:3 276:16 313:11 356:10 divide 84:16 149:3 341:2 divided 270:21 338:18 364:7 division 235:6 document

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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### Capital Reporting Company

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