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 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY 

 + + + + + 

 ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARD 

 NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE FOR 

 METAL HALIDE LAMP FIXTURES 

 + + + + + 

 PUBLIC MEETING 

 + + + + + 

 FRIDAY 

 SEPTEMBER 27, 2013 

 + + + + + 

 The public meeting was held in Room 

8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., 

Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman, 

Meeting Facilitator, presiding. 

PRESENT: 

DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public 

 Solutions, Inc. 

ARI ALTMAN, Department of Energy 

LUCY DeBUTTS, Department of Energy 

ALSO PRESENT: 

JENNIFER AMANN, American Council for an 

 Energy-Efficient Economy 

TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice 

ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical 

 Manufacturers Association 

SUSAN CALLAHAN, OSRAM SYLVANIA 

MATTHEW CHESTER, Navigant Consulting 
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ALSO PRESENT (Continued): 

HAYDEN COOK, Navigant Consulting 

KEITH COOK, Philips Lighting 

MARK DUFFY, GE Lighting 

TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and 

 Conservation Council 

CHERYL ENGLISH, Acuity Brands Lighting 

JOHN GREEN, Eaton Cooper Lighting 

JOSEPH HANCOCK, Florida Power and Light* 

TOM HARDING, Venture Lighting 

ALEX HOFMANN, American Public Power 

 Association 

CHRIS HOLSTEIN, Universal Lighting 

 Technologies 

JOSEPH HOWLEY, GE Lighting 

SCOTTY HUTTO, Georgia Power 

TANZINA ISLAM, American Public Power 

 Association 

JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness 

 Project 

ALI MCDONALD, Navigant Consulting 

SCOTT MORRIS, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

MICHAEL MYER, Pacific Northwest National 

 Laboratory 

MICHAEL O'BOYLE, Philips Lighting 

CHACKO OOMMEN, Philips Lighting 

CRAIG PAWLAK, Musco Lighting 

REBECCA RAINER, Eaton Cooper Lighting 

STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute 

LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency 

 Alliance 

MICHAEL STEVENS, Georgia Power Company 

PIERSON STOECKLEIN, Steptoe & Johnson, LLP 

MATTHEW WALKER, Navigant Consulting 

DOUG YATES, Musco Lighting 

DANIEL YOUNG, California Investor-Owned 

 Utilities 

 *Participating via teleconference. 
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 TABLE OF CONTENTS 

AGENDA ITEM PAGE 

Welcome; Introductions; Opening 

 ............. 

 4 

Statements 

Lucy DeButts, DOE Lighting Project 

Manager 

Overview, Scope, Market and 

 .................46 

Technology Assessment, Screening 

Analysis 

Matt Chester, Navigant Consulting, ....... 103 

Inc. 

Engineering Analysis 

Matthew Walker, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 125 

Energy Use, Markup Analysis, 

Life-Cycle Cost and Payback Period 

Analysis 

Michael Myer and Scott Morris, Pacific 

Northwest National Laboratory 

 ............. 222 

Shipments, National Impact Analysis 

Michael Myer and Scott Morris, Pacific 

Northwest National Laboratory 

 ............ 228 

Manufacturer Impact Analysis 

Hayden Cook, Navigant Consulting, Inc. ... 269 

Proposed Standard 

Matthew Walker, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 319 

Closing Remarks 

Lucy DeButts, DOE Lighting 

Project Manager 

 ............................ 324 
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 

2 9:00 a.m. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's get started, 

4 everyone. Good morning. This is the U.S. 

5 Department of Energy's public meeting on energy 

6 conservation standard notice of proposed rule 

7 for metal halide lamp fixtures here at the 

8 Department of Energy in Washington, D.C. Today 

9 is Friday, September 27th, 2013. My name is 

10 Doug Brookman from Public Solutions in 

11 Baltimore. 

12 So glad to see you here this morning. 

13 Welcome. And we're going to start this morning 

14 with welcoming remarks from Lucy DeButts. 

15 MS. DeBUTTS: Good morning, 

16 everyone. I am happy to see all of you here. I 

17 am Lucy DeButts, currently the lighting team 

18 lead for DOE. And, just like Doug said, we are 

19 going to discuss the metal halide lamp fixtures 

20 standards and the test procedure issues today. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

22 We always start with introductions. 
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1 I will give you a chance to get used to turning 

2 these microphones on and off. Little green 

3 button illuminates. I'll start to my left. 

4 Your name and organizational affiliation? 

5 MS. CALLAHAN: Sue Callahan, Osram 

6 Sylvania. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

8 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen, Philips 

9 Electronics. 

10 MR. STEVENS: Mike Stevens with 

11 Georgia Power. 

12 MS. RAINER: Becky Rainer with 

13 Eaton Cooper Lighting. 

14 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

15 NEMA. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

17 Edison Electric Institute. 

18 MR. HOFMANN: Alex Hofmann, 

19 American Public Power Association. 

20 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein, 

21 Universal Lighting. 

22 MR. HOWLEY: Joe Howley, GE 
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1 Lighting. 

2 MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook, 

3 Philips Lighting. 

4 MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young, 

5 California Investor-Owned Utilities. 

6 MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco 

7 Sports Lighting. 

8 MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest 

9 Energy Efficiency Alliance. 

10 MR. ALTMAN: Ari Altman with the DOE 

11 General Counsel's office. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand. 

13 Lucy, introduce yourself again. 

14 MS. DeBUTTS: Lucy DeButts, DOE. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

16 Please stand up. 

17 MS. McDONALD: Ali McDonald, 

18 Navigant Consulting. 

19 MR. CHESTER: Matt Chester, 

20 Navigant Consulting. 

21 MR. WALKER: Matthew Walker, also 

22 with Navigant. 
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1 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Hayden Cook, 

2 Navigant Consulting. 

3 MR. MYER: Mike Myer, Pacific 

4 Northwest National Laboratory. 

5 MR. MORRIS: Scott Morris, PNNL, 

6 Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: And let's do the back 

8 of the room as well, please. You can just speak 

9 up. 

10 MR. DUFFY: All right. I'm Mark 

11 Duffy from GE Lighting. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

13 MR. GREEN: John Green, Eaton 

14 Cooper Lighting. 

15 MR. O'BOYLE: Michael O'Boyle, 

16 Philips Lighting. 

17 MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe, 

18 subcontractor to PNNL. 

19 MR. PAWLAK: Craig Pawlak, Musco 

20 Lighting. 

21 MS. ISLAM: Tanzina Islam, American 

22 Public Power Association. 
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1 MR. HUTTO: Scott Hutto, Georgia 

2 Power and Lighting Services. 

3 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance 

4 Standards Awareness Project. 

5 MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, 

6 Acuity Brands Lighting. 

7 MR. STOECKLEIN: Pierson 

8 Stoecklein, Steptoe & Johnson, on behalf of 

9 Acuity Brands. 

10 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest 

11 Power and Conservation Council. 

12 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with 

13 Earthjustice. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, thanks 

15 again to all of you. And all of you received a 

16 packet of information as you checked in this 

17 morning. I'm going to do a very brief agenda 

18 review. And then shortly thereafter, we're 

19 going to start with the content. Immediately 

20 following this agenda review, there is an 

21 opportunity for anyone that wishes to do so to 

22 make an opening statement, brief opening 
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1 remarks. I understand NEMA has a presentation 

2 that it has prepared. 

3 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Have you handed it 

5 off yet to someone, Alex? 

6 MR. BOESENBERG: Electronically, 

7 yes, ready to go. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have it? 

9 MS. DeBUTTS: Yes, we do. We do. 

10 It's loaded. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: We have it? Okay. 

12 Great. So not only NEMA but anyone else that 

13 wishes to make an opening statement, summary 

14 remarks, about issues that matter to you, we'll 

15 do that immediately following this agenda 

16 review; following that, overview, scope, market 

17 and technology assessment, screening analysis 

18 and then following that, engineering analysis. 

19 We'll take a break midmorning, around about 

20 11:00 o'clock or so; following that, energy use, 

21 markup analysis, life-cycle cost, and payback 

22 period analysis; then shipments, national 
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1 impacts analysis. We'll take lunch around 

2 about 12:00-12:15 or so. When we return from 

3 lunch, manufacturer impact analysis; LCC 

4 subgroup analysis, employment impact analysis, 

5 emissions analysis and monetization of 

6 emissions, regulatory impact analysis; 

7 following that, proposed standard; and then, 

8 finally, at the end of the day, closing remarks, 

9 yet another opportunity for anybody who wants to 

10 make additional comments to make sure we give 

11 everyone a chance to get everything they want to 

12 have covered in this meeting today. 

13 I recognize many of you. Welcome 

14 again. You are used to the way we conduct these 

15 meetings, I'm certain. Please, if you would, 

16 speak one at a time. Say your name for the 

17 record each time you speak. There will be a 

18 complete transcript of this meeting made 

19 available on the DOE website. If you could try 

20 to be concise, share the air time? There's a lot 

21 to be said. There's a lot of material here. 

22 Keep the focus here. 
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1 If you'd put your cell phones on 

2 silent mode and limit sidebar conversations. 

3 You already have gotten used to turning the 

4 microphone on and off. That will be helpful. 

5 And webinar participants let me welcome you 

6 especially. The Department of Energy is trying 

7 hard to make these meetings successful to those 

8 via the web. Please keep your telephones on 

9 mute and raise your hand to be recognized by our 

10 web mistress to speak. It has been working that 

11 when you wish to speak, that we have been able 

12 to hear you in the room. Hopefully that will 

13 work again today. 

14 I think that is most of the 

15 housekeeping stuff. Do you want to say anything 

16 before we queue the NEMA slides? 

17 MS. DeBUTTS: Well, let's see. We 

18 can talk about the purpose of this meeting. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Please do. 

20 MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. Hi, everyone. 

21 So we would like comments today on the energy 

22 standards levels, comments on methodologies, 
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1 results. We are going to discuss issues related 

2 to the analyses of the metal halide lamp fixtures 

3 rulemaking. We encourage the input. We need 

4 all the data and help we can get so we can come 

5 up with the best possible rulemaking and the 

6 standards for the industry and the United 

7 States. 

8 If you have comments, just like Doug 

9 said, please provide them. If you could be 

10 brief, that's great. We also encourage the 

11 written comments from everyone. 

12 Throughout the presentation, you 

13 will see the boxes, which are issue boxes. And 

14 we are asking questions throughout the 

15 presentation. The boxes correspond with the 

16 numbers that were posted in the rulemaking. So 

17 they are not going to be in order on the 

18 presentation, but they correspond to the notice 

19 of proposed rulemaking issues. 

20 The deadline for submitting 

21 comments is October 21st of 2013. If you would 

22 like to submit the comments, this is how you do 
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1 this. We have, of course, the electronic 

2 submissions, which should be addressed to DOE, 

3 and mention the docket number and regulatory 

4 identification number as well as the name of the 

5 rulemaking. They can be sent by Postal Service 

6 to Brenda Edwards or by courier. And, again, 

7 you know, just to reiterate, October 21st of 2013 

8 is the end of the comment period. 

9 And now, with opening remarks, Alex, 

10 if you would like to start or -- 

11 MR. BOESENBERG: I could let others 

12 speak while I pass out my hard copy since I'm 

13 late. 

14 MS. DeBUTTS: All right. I'll push 

15 the buttons, then, if you want me to. 

16 MR. BOESENBERG: I mean, if anyone 

17 else besides NEMA would like to speak? 

18 MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. 

19 MR. BOESENBERG: I did not hand out 

20 the hard copy presentations I brought with me. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

22 Let's do that. 
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1 Anyone else here at the outset who 

2 wishes to make opening statements? Steve 

3 Rosenstock? 

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

5 Edison Electric Institute. Thank you for this 

6 opportunity. 

7 Looking over the NOPR and the 

8 technical support document, I just want to say 

9 on behalf of utilities, we appreciate the fact 

10 that utilities were listed as a subgroup. We 

11 are a consumer of these products, especially 

12 those utilities that have outdoor lighting 

13 programs. 

14 We are going to have comments later 

15 about some of the economic analysis. And so, 

16 like I said, we really appreciate the Department 

17 recognizing us as a subgroup. 

18 Just as a general thing, looking 

19 through the slides and the NOPR, I know the title 

20 of today's presentation is metal halide 

21 fixtures, but when I look at all of the technical 

22 details, it does seem to be all about the 
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1 ballasts. There's nothing in here about I'll 

2 say fixture efficiency. I'll just use an 

3 example. 

4 You could have a fixture with a 

5 1,000-watt HID lamp and it's putting out one 

6 lumen, it's putting out 0.00001 foot candles, 

7 but as long as that ballast meets the efficiency, 

8 it will meet the DOE requirement. 

9 So maybe a little truth in labeling 

10 might be helpful going forward, that when we get 

11 right down to it, this is a ballast standard, 

12 just like the fluorescent lamp ballast standard 

13 is a ballast standard. And I think DOE did a 

14 very thorough job, but I think maybe a little 

15 truth in advertising might be helpful. 

16 Thank you. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

18 Other comments here at the outset? 

19 Please, Doug? 

20 MR. YATES: Yes. Doug Yates, Musco 

21 Lighting. Again, we want to thank the 

22 Department of Energy for giving us the 
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1 opportunity to be here today. 

2 Musco has a fairly focused market in 

3 the 1,500-watt sports lighting area. That is 

4 the market that is predominantly in 1,500-watt. 

5 And we have spent the last three-plus decades 

6 working to reduce energy usage. And we have 

7 estimated we have probably taken 50 percent out 

8 of energy usage in the industry or compared to 

9 the industry. So we certainly are in support of 

10 any efforts to promote energy conservation. 

11 With that said, we do have some 

12 serious concerns regarding the inclusion of the 

13 1,500-watt in this rulemaking. And we look 

14 forward to being able to present further 

15 information on that throughout the course of the 

16 day. 

17 Again, thank you. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

19 Okay. Yes, Joanna? 

20 MS. MAUER: I'm Joanna Mauer with 

21 the Appliance Standards Awareness Project. 

22 We're pleased that this proposed rule has 
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1 finally been issued after a long delay. This 

2 rulemaking has the potential to deliver large 

3 energy savings for the nation and energy bill 

4 savings for purchasers of metal halide lamp 

5 fixtures. 

6 We believe that many of the changes 

7 that DOE has made since the preliminary 

8 technical support document was issued have 

9 improved the analysis. However, we do have some 

10 questions related to some of the analysis 

11 results that we find a little puzzling, which 

12 we'll raise later on and hope to get some 

13 clarification on. 

14 As DOE prepares the final rule, we 

15 urge the Department to adopt the maximum 

16 cost-effective levels. We note that the life 

17 cycle cost results for the proposed rule 

18 indicate that the max tech levels are 

19 cost-effective for all equipment classes of 

20 outdoor fixtures based on DOE's analysis 

21 standards based on these cost-effective levels 

22 would roughly double the national energy savings 
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1 compared to the proposed standards. 

2 We thank DOE for the opportunity to 

3 participate in today's public meeting, and we 

4 look forward to the discussion today. Thank 

5 you. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

7 Other comments here before we turn 

8 to NEMA? 

9 (No response.) 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex? 

11 MR. BOESENBERG: Hi. I'm Alex 

12 Boesenberg for the National Electrical 

13 Manufacturers Association. And, like 

14 everyone, I'll join in thanking the Department 

15 of Energy for having today's meeting and for also 

16 allowing us to speak. 

17 I have about 15 slides, of which this 

18 is one. And I will let my members speak to some 

19 specific topics from their seats or standing in 

20 the back, as Cheryl English is now. And then 

21 I'll wrap it up. 

22 Our goal in making this presentation 
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1 is to highlight certain specific topics that we 

2 think are the most critical. And we will 

3 obviously provide further detail, both today 

4 during the individual discussions on those 

5 points and then also in our written comments. 

6 So, with that, I will let Cheryl 

7 English speak about feasibility of compliance 

8 dates. 

9 MS. ENGLISH: Thanks, Alex. 

10 I'm Cheryl English, Acuity Brands 

11 Lighting. So one of the key topics that we 

12 wanted to talk about is, you know, we do 

13 appreciate that the standard is very specific on 

14 performance levels for ballasts, but it is a 

15 fixture standard, which has a lot of 

16 implications on both the ballast and fixture 

17 manufacturers. So the first area of concern is 

18 the feasibility of compliance by the proposed 

19 January 1st, 2015 date. 

20 So the key items here are that the 

21 logistics of this rule are much more complex than 

22 the original EISA rule. Part of that is because 
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1 the scope of products is much larger than what 

2 was included in the EISA and the efficiency 

3 levels proposed would require many of those 

4 products to be redesigned. It also impacts new 

5 channels. So primarily industrial and outdoor 

6 channels were previously impacted. This now 

7 gets into retail consumer products as well as 

8 commercial offices with some of the lower 

9 wattage products. 

10 The secondary is limited 

11 manufacturing resources. We're working with 

12 fewer human resources than we had in 2007 in 

13 order to implement the compliance. It was very 

14 complicated. And of those resources we have, we 

15 are trying to keep those people focused on R&D 

16 of new technologies and selling of new 

17 technologies for higher efficiency, most of that 

18 being LED technology development. 

19 The third area is the impact on 

20 energy. The NOPR really does not result in 

21 significant gains of energy reductions and 

22 diverts the speed of the market transformation 
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1 that is already drastically taking place. 

2 The final area is the three years 

3 time frame is consistent with what Congress' 

4 intent was in the EISA 2007. And so we encourage 

5 DOE to consider a reasonable time frame to manage 

6 those logistics. And we believe that is the 

7 full three years. 

8 Going through just some of the 

9 logistics of the manufacturers of ballasts, the 

10 list is relatively long, but I think it is 

11 important because you need to understand the 

12 details of what manufacturers actually have to 

13 do. So we start out evaluating the covered 

14 products relative to the final rule. And this 

15 includes new wattage categories and the 

16 elimination of some exempted products in the 

17 previous EISA rule, then evaluating the ballast 

18 efficiency relative to the proposed performance 

19 or the final rule performance, determining if 

20 those ballasts can be redesigned within the same 

21 case size or if they're going to have to be 

22 modified, eliminating those ballasts and going 
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1 through the business systems and the 

2 manufacturing systems to manage not only 

3 inventory management, manufacturing 

4 strategies, but working with suppliers and 

5 resellers of those products. 

6 The testing of the new and modified 

7 ballasts is probably one of the most significant 

8 areas. And you'll remember when the DOE 

9 certification rule came into place and we 

10 discovered as that rule was becoming effective 

11 that there was not the proper number of samples 

12 of ballasts in order to comply with the CCE rule 

13 and it took six months just to get the sampling 

14 of those ballasts, we're now talking about 

15 ballasts that have to be redesigned, submitted 

16 for UL testing, and then doing the sampling for 

17 the CCE rule. 

18 Education. That includes our 

19 internal staff as well as marketing sales 

20 quotations customers and our IT systems because 

21 they have to make the changes in our order 

22 processing and inventory management software. 
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1 Then educating the customers, this being OEM 

2 customers as well as distributors, would be the 

3 primarily markets for the ballast companies, 

4 modifying those marketing materials, managing 

5 orders and contracts. And manufacturers often 

6 have a year, two-year contracts with their 

7 customers to buy certain products under certain 

8 pricing and performance levels. And so when a 

9 rule comes in place, we have to go back and 

10 attempt to renegotiate those contracts. And 

11 it's often very difficult when the prices are 

12 changing and the performance of the products are 

13 changing; and then, finally, obtaining the data 

14 for the certification. Some of these 

15 activities can be done concurrently, but many of 

16 them are sequential. 

17 So moving on to the fixture 

18 implications, the yellow circle is the key 

19 products that were covered in EISA. Again, 

20 that's primarily industrial and outdoor, 

21 commercial outdoor, types of products. We're 

22 now talking about a rule that's going to -- the 
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1 lower-wattage bin is going to get into down 

2 lights, small outdoor fixtures like bollards and 

3 wall-mounted products. Also, the low-wattage 

4 bins will impact many products that are in the 

5 residential marketplace. We'll probably talk 

6 about this later on, but in the residential 

7 marketplace, if a consumer is buying a metal 

8 halide product, even if it's core and coil, it's 

9 much more efficient than their compact 

10 fluorescent or incandescent halogen 

11 alternatives. So cost increases there will 

12 likely snap that market back to an incandescent 

13 halogen type of marketplace. 

14 With the higher wattages, you're 

15 talking about inclusion of sports lights, 

16 industrial, heavy industrial, applications that 

17 have a high ambient temperature, and then things 

18 like the roadway lighting at infrastructure and 

19 intersections that is very high light output. 

20 So the concern here is high light output and/or 

21 high ambient temperature are areas that LED 

22 technology is more challenged in terms of 
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1 meeting in today's marketplace. In three 

2 years, it will probably be an excellent 

3 alternative, but in less than a year, by 2015, 

4 there are going to be some gaps that couldn't be 

5 met with those other technologies. 

6 Fixture manufacture logistics are 

7 very similar to the ballasts, but most cases, we 

8 can't start these logistics until the ballast 

9 manufacturers have done all of their work. So 

10 we can't begin evaluating which of the fixtures 

11 are impacted until we know which ballasts are 

12 going to have to be redesigned and whether or not 

13 those ballasts are going to be the same form, 

14 same size, same thermal characteristics. It's 

15 very likely on the proposed rule that they will 

16 not be. 

17 Once we have determined that 

18 evaluation, we have to redesign the products. 

19 And so you take one ballasts can proliferate into 

20 dozens, if not hundreds, of skews of luminaires 

21 using that one ballast. And that's a tremendous 

22 redesign capability for the luminaire 
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1 manufacturers if the form of that ballast 

2 thermal characteristics ends up changing. 

3 Also, the phase-out process is complicated in 

4 terms of products that we have to decide that we 

5 are going to eliminate. 

6 Here again the testing -- and we're 

7 talking about not only the electrical and safety 

8 testing, but we're talking about thermal and 

9 photometric testing. 

10 Ballasts will have to go through UL 

11 testing as well as the fixtures. And there is, 

12 quite honestly, a concern whether there is 

13 capability of UL and CSA to handle the volume 

14 that would be going through in this very short 

15 period of time. 

16 Again, the education of our internal 

17 staff as well as customers, in the case of 

18 luminaire manufacturers, it's more than just OEM 

19 and distributors. We have contractors, 

20 designers, home centers, and showrooms that we 

21 would have to be working with. 

22 Again, managing the orders and 
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1 contracts, we have contracts with our customers 

2 that extend one to two years. And those might 

3 be retailers. They might be utilities. And 

4 those are all price guarantee and performance 

5 guarantees, modifying marketing materials, 

6 doing all of the testing necessary, and 

7 submissions for our CCE rule. 

8 So, with all of that, hopefully that 

9 gives you some idea of the logistics that are 

10 going to take place from the time the final rule 

11 is implemented. And we believe that the January 

12 2015 date is unreasonable. And we again request 

13 the full three years for implementation. 

14 Thank you. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Cheryl. 

16 Tom? 

17 MR. HARDING: I want to address the 

18 issue really related to electronic ballasts for 

19 metal halide. 

20 MR. BOESENBERG: That's Tom Harding 

21 from Venture. 

22 MR. HARDING: I'm sorry. Thank 
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1 you. 

2 Anyway, the issue is that at the most 

3 popular products in the 320 to 400-watt range and 

4 the efficiencies that are described in this 

5 document are over 90 percent. And we will start 

6 to see electronic ballasts used. And in that 

7 range, the industry is split between 

8 low-frequency square wave and high-frequency. 

9 And, in fact, the 400-watt max tech level in this 

10 document is, in fact, done on a high-frequency 

11 ballast, which is slightly more efficient than 

12 the square wave electronic. 

13 I want to caution you. There were 

14 a couple of issues here that we need to be careful 

15 of when using electronic high-frequency 

16 ballasts. And, of course, I think you are aware 

17 that high-frequency ballasts are not compatible 

18 with all metal halide lamps. The size of the arc 

19 tube makes a difference. You get into acoustic 

20 resonance problems, which cause arc instability 

21 and possible rupture of the arc tube. 

22 So they are very particular. Work 
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1 is being done to try to figure out how to fix this 

2 problem, but we've found that other issues 

3 surface when it's just trying to avoid acoustic 

4 resonance. So that problem still persists. 

5 And we could end up with compatibility problems, 

6 as we mentioned below. 

7 A single-frequency ballast is 

8 difficult to come up with. You get into 

9 replacement issues where you can't just replace 

10 a ballast or a lamp and find compatibility. 

11 There are no lists floating around in general, 

12 although some companies may have them. A wet 

13 works, wet plant works, is a wet ballast. 

14 Issue two, there are no ANSI 

15 standards. And that sort of follows from the 

16 other problem, getting all the metal halides of 

17 lamps and ballasts to agree where they can 

18 operate lamps. And sometimes that means lamp 

19 redesign as well as playing with the 

20 high-frequency ballasts. There are no 

21 standards in the ballasts. There are no 

22 standards in the lamp. Work has just started on 
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1 those projects. And the results will probably 

2 be very limited products that you can use with 

3 these high-efficiency, high-frequency 

4 ballasts. 

5 So we're working, started the work 

6 on that, but it will be a few years before that 

7 gets all done. And it will be limited. 

8 And last but not least, as hard as 

9 it may be to believe, it's hard to measure the 

10 power or the wattage of these high-frequency 

11 ballasts at frequencies over 100 kilohertz where 

12 these things tend to be operating, in the 320 to 

13 400-watt range. 

14 The measurements are uncertain to 

15 the level of two to five percent. They're very 

16 hard to get precise. And if you're looking for 

17 tenth of a percent numbers, it makes it very, 

18 very difficult because the max tech level of the 

19 400-watt that's done on a high frequency is just 

20 about the limit of where high-frequency ballast 

21 efficiencies are. 

22 So it's going to be a very difficult 
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1 situation to resolve. And, of course, there are 

2 numbers listed for high-frequency ballasts for 

3 efficiencies, but, again, no standards, no 

4 measurement standards, have been issued. So, 

5 again, the lack of standards is a problem in all 

6 these kinds of measurements. 

7 Thank you. 

8 MR. BOESENBERG: And this is Alex 

9 Boesenberg of NEMA. To make a further 

10 clarification of Tom's last point, since there 

11 is no industry test standard for high-frequency 

12 electronic ballasts, the efficiencies reported 

13 by the manufacturers are done using their 

14 internal in-house test procedures. To perform 

15 an analysis based on catalog data gathered from 

16 more than one manufacturer, you're combining 

17 different test procedures. And we're concerned 

18 about that. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris? 

20 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein with 

21 Universal Lighting. We wanted to talk about the 

22 efficiency standards themselves. I think the 
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1 key point here is, as proposed, we believe that 

2 these standards would only be achievable in some 

3 lab conditions. The levels would be mostly 

4 impossible in mass production or serious 

5 production. And we'll talk about that in a 

6 second but firstly to focus more on the mid 

7 wattage and the 150-watt exclusion. 

8 So basically the way the standard 

9 reads today, everything less than -- I shouldn't 

10 say everything -- most of everything that is less 

11 than/equal to 750 watts would need to be 

12 redesigned. And then with, in particular, the 

13 150-watt exclusion from the prior ruling, we 

14 read this and wonder if that is a mistake the way 

15 that it is written. 

16 In your Table 1 or I-1, it stipulates 

17 a 92.6 percent efficiency, which we believe is 

18 the max tech of whatever you have pulled. And 

19 this is just unachievable from a magnetic 

20 solution. 

21 And then, just as a clarifying 

22 point, on the same table, you have other fixtures 
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1 that operate in less severe conditions operating 

2 at an 88 percent efficiency. The way that we 

3 look at the table, it suggests that your feeling 

4 is that everybody would move to an electronic 

5 solution, but then we question if you all 

6 understand that that is probably not going to 

7 work in those severe applications. 

8 So we have things such as the -- you 

9 know, if lightning would happen to strike a 

10 fixture outside and you have a transient surge 

11 through the fixture, a magnetic ballast can 

12 handle that a lot better than electronic 

13 ballasts would. So there would have to be new 

14 circuitry that would be added for that. The 

15 fixtures themselves would have to be redesigned 

16 that would eliminate the ability for 

17 distribution replacement in the market. And we 

18 just see that on the 150-watt, this would be very 

19 difficult. But what probably happened, rather 

20 than switch to an electronic standard, is you 

21 would probably force people up in wattage. So 

22 you would actually lose efficiency because they 
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1 will probably or most likely according to the 

2 table, they will move to a 170-watt or a 200-watt 

3 magnetic solution. So basically you would 

4 actually reverse what you are trying to do. We 

5 think that you all should consider keeping the 

6 exclusion on the 150-watt classification. 

7 The other piece that we need to take 

8 into consideration with the certification of 

9 compliance enforcement is the 99 percent 

10 confidence factor. Once again, in a magnetic 

11 ballast, your losses come from basically two 

12 pieces, the coil, your primary and secondary 

13 thing, the magnetic wire. And then you have the 

14 coil. So it's the laminations and the steel. 

15 What we see is there are variations 

16 in batch to batch from the material that we get. 

17 So wire cross-sections can vary plus or minus 

18 three percent and the core lamination thickness 

19 can vary plus or minus ten percent. And these 

20 losses, these variations, will create 

21 efficiency losses in the ballasts. 

22 So when you combine the losses of the 
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1 raw material plus the 99 percent confidence 

2 factor, you are looking at batch-to-batch 

3 variation from material and testing and 

4 production that will make it nearly impossible 

5 to reach the levels proposed in serious 

6 production. 

7 Now, you could sit in a lab-based 

8 environment, take the best wire and the best 

9 laminations, and possibly hit the level. But 

10 when that translates from the lab in a controlled 

11 environment to mass production, you are going to 

12 have a problem. 

13 So we did graph as an example where 

14 we see. So the red solid line is the NOPR, 

15 everything other than 480-volt. And the dotted 

16 line is the NOPR 480-volt. These are one-piece 

17 samples. So these are not based off the test 

18 procedures. It's not four. It's not run 

19 through any of the 99 percent confidence factor. 

20 It's just one sample just for the purposes of the 

21 graph. 

22 And you can see the majority of the 
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1 line to the left, which is about 76 percent of 

2 the market based off of NEMA data, and then the 

3 higher wattage to the right, about 24 percent. 

4 And you can see the group of products that will 

5 completely need to be re-looked at and 

6 redesigned. 

7 And I think the thing that everybody 

8 needs to take into consideration -- and the 

9 comment that was made earlier, I believe, from 

10 Edison Electric that it's not necessarily a 

11 fixture standard, it's a ballast standard, one 

12 thing you have to remember is to hit efficiencies 

13 like this, the only way we can do that in any 

14 possibility would be to increase size. So it 

15 immediately impacts the fixture manufacturers 

16 because, you know, if we try to get to these 

17 levels, these ballasts are going to increase 

18 significantly, which means they will not fit in 

19 the current fixtures, which means they're going 

20 to have to redesign their fixtures, which also 

21 means every lamppost out there in the United 

22 States that has a magnetic ballast that runs it 
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1 probably won't find a replacement ballast to fit 

2 in it. So you all need to take that into 

3 consideration as well. 

4 The next slide. We just kind of 

5 zoom in to that less than 750-watt piece just to 

6 take a better look. The boxes that are 

7 highlighted there will be the ones that will all 

8 be affected in terms of size. And at this point, 

9 we don't even know if we can get to that level. 

10 I mean, we have not tried to redesign these. 

11 But the even larger question is the 

12 150-watt exclusion. And that point, that gap, 

13 makes no sense. Even when you look at the graph, 

14 it doesn't correlate. So we believe that you 

15 all made a mistake there. Maybe you didn't, but 

16 it sure looks like you did. It doesn't even fit 

17 the slope of the graph. 

18 The other thing we would like to talk 

19 about is the rounding requirements of the 

20 ruling. The ruling is asking us to have 

21 accuracy down to the tenth. And I think what 

22 everybody needs to understand here is that, even 
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1 under ANSI C82.6, the accuracy of the test lab 

2 is expected to equal one percent. And when you 

3 look at the variation that we talked about 

4 earlier of the raw materials and then the test 

5 procedure -- and we have done analysis and have 

6 presented it to you before on bench-to-bench 

7 variation and material variation. We have been 

8 through that conversation. 

9 When you increase this down to the 

10 tenth percent, actually, it could exclude 

11 products that passed under EISA 2007, could not 

12 fail under the new ruling. And we believe that 

13 that is not an inappropriate look. 

14 Alex, if you go one more time, just 

15 as an example, if you look at a situation -- and, 

16 first off, 88 percent is a lot different than 

17 88.0, even though they look to be mathematically 

18 the same. But based off of your rounding 

19 requirement, if you had a standard that required 

20 a 92.6 percent efficiency, the lab A could 

21 measure 92.5. Lab B can measure 92.7 for the 

22 same product. These are all within the one 
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1 percent accuracy that's granted by ANSI C82.6, 

2 but based off of the test procedures written, 

3 that would be a fail. 

4 So our conclusion here is that the 

5 regulation should consider the efficiency value 

6 is an integer and not to the tenth percent or the 

7 tenth decimal point. 

8 MR. BOESENBERG: And this is Alex 

9 Boesenberg. Lastly, slide 15 is a graph of 4 

10 different representations of metal halide 

11 ballast sales. In 2008, the NEMA ballast 

12 section began collecting data for OEM ballast 

13 sales for covered -- in this case, we have 

14 represented covered products 50 watts and 

15 greater. And I'll speak first to the top left. 

16 That shows magnetic metal halide ballast 

17 shipments from 2008 forward. 

18 I guess first I should back up and 

19 say these graphs do not represent actual sales 

20 numbers. What they are is indexed graphs. And 

21 what that means is whatever the sales figure for 

22 2008 was becomes assigned as number 100. And 
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1 that is the start point. You put it up on the 

2 graph. And then you show a trend up or down 

3 based on how the sales change to the next data 

4 point, in this case the next year. 

5 So what indexes do is allow for the 

6 data to be kept confidential. And because it is 

7 an index number, that 100 doesn't correlate to 

8 an actual figure. When you move from one graph 

9 to the next, it prevents the backwards math. So 

10 we recognize that this data can only show trends. 

11 So, back to the graph on the top 

12 left, you can look at magnetic metal halide 

13 ballast shipments from 2008 to projected 2013. 

14 The 2013 numbers are an annualized 6-month data 

15 point that we simply multiplied by 2 and say that 

16 right now our best guess is the sales that we have 

17 mid-year will continue. And so that's how we 

18 were able to get one more data point to help with 

19 the curve. 

20 So for magnetic, it's pretty 

21 obvious. Since 2008, the recession happened. 

22 There was a dip, but the recovery does not appear 
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1 to be taking place. So magnetic ballasts are 

2 continuing to experience a decline in sales. 

3 Moving to the top right, that 

4 picture shows electronic metal halide ballasts. 

5 That's certainly the focus of a lot of the 

6 interest in this rule. Just like every 

7 industry, there was a down turn after 2008 to 

8 2009, thanks to the economy. And then 

9 electronic ballasts did show some increase in 

10 sales. However, the 2012 to 2013 projections 

11 showed that this was temporary. 

12 Now, I will keep going clockwise 

13 down to the bottom right. That is ballast 

14 market shares. And, moving to that one, that 

15 helps illustrate the difference between 

16 magnetic and electronic. The blue bars are 

17 magnetic sales. And the orange bar is 

18 electronic sales. So if you're looking at the 

19 top right graph and you go, "Oh, boy, electronic. 

20 Boy, their sales more than doubled," well, the 

21 percent market share is very small. 

22 So then you can go to the bottom left 
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1 corner and see that is the total metal halide 

2 ballast shipments when you add the two together. 

3 And that shows it raised a little after 2009. 

4 And based on the data we have, it looks like it 

5 has leveled off. And so the message is the 

6 projections in the NOPR based on the TSD analysis 

7 that expect there to be a regaining of the 2006 

8 sales levels and that drives a lot of the 

9 feasibility in the cost payback analysis is for 

10 our ballast data, that is not supported. 

11 The conclusion I draw from this and 

12 I think a lot of my members draw from it is metal 

13 halide product ballast and fixture sales will 

14 continue, but they are not going to grow 

15 appreciably. In a sense, it's had its day. It 

16 has a wide installed base. There will still be 

17 replacement and people wanting to use what they 

18 have used before, but something is eroding the 

19 market besides the economy. And the obvious 

20 answer for that is light-emitting diode, LED, 

21 technology, which we can see on our streets 

22 outside here. 
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1 And that is our final graph, slide 

2 for the presentation. There are some backup 

3 slides, which I invite folks to read, that 

4 discuss some of the different technologies, but 

5 we didn't want to belabor that this morning. 

6 Thank you. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

8 Additional comments, perhaps final 

9 comments, before we move on? And I would invite 

10 anyone who is joining us via the web to raise your 

11 hand and make a comment as well if you wish to. 

12 (No response.) 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing yet. So, 

14 then, Lucy DeButts, we are going to proceed with 

15 the content you have in the PowerPoint slides. 

16 I believe we are now on slide 10. 

17 MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. So during this 

18 portion of our meeting, we will be talking about 

19 the overview of the rulemaking, scope, and the 

20 test procedure. 

21 By the way, throughout the 

22 presentation, the folks from Navigant and PNNL 
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1 will be helping me and presenting. 

2 So let's begin with the overview of 

3 the rulemaking. This slide represents the 

4 metal halide lamp fixtures rulemaking schedule. 

5 You can see that the framework was published in 

6 December of 2009. The NOPR and preliminary TSDs 

7 were published in April of 2011. Yes, it took 

8 a little bit of time to finally get the NOPR out, 

9 but we managed to do so in August of 2013. And 

10 what we are projecting is to publish the final 

11 rule in January of 2014. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

14 A question based on the NEMA presentation. Is 

15 DOE still -- well, again, is the final rule to 

16 be published in January after receiving all the 

17 comments in late October? You're giving 

18 yourselves two months, three months? 

19 MS. DeBUTTS: Well, that's what we 

20 strive for. 

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: And, again, based 

22 on the NEMA presentation, is DOE still planning 
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1 to have an effective date of the standard in 

2 January of 2015? 

3 MS. DeBUTTS: I'll get that -- 

4 MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from 

5 the General Counsel's Office. The NOPR 

6 proposed a date of January 2015 based on our 

7 understanding of the statute. And so that is 

8 what is in there now. We are happy to take 

9 comment on that. 

10 Of course, we have already had the 

11 NEMA presentation. We haven't heard any 

12 specific dates on what would be more feasible 

13 other than three years out. Perhaps there are 

14 other viewpoints on that. We would take into 

15 consideration whether that three years that 

16 potentially others have suggested is 

17 congressional intent could apply. But right 

18 now the NOPR proposed January 2015 based on our 

19 understanding of the statute. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

21 Was EISA 2007 that statute? 

22 MR. ALTMAN: Yes. 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Lucy. 

3 MS. DeBUTTS: If no more questions, 

4 this slide represents the factors that the DOE 

5 considers while doing the analysis. And you can 

6 go through them later, but there are seven 

7 factors that we consider. I'm sure that most of 

8 the stakeholders here are familiar with them. 

9 So before we dive in into the 

10 presentation, let's take a look at the current 

11 standard. And so, as was mentioned before, we 

12 are calling this the metal halide lamp fixture 

13 standard in proposing the definition for this 

14 rulemaking, which is the light fixture for the 

15 general lighting application designed to 

16 operate with a metal halide and ballast. 

17 The current standard was prescribed 

18 by EISA or, as some call it, EISA. Maybe we 

19 should standardize that -- I don't know -- in 

20 2007. And it mandated that a minimum ballast 

21 efficiency for ballasts sold in metal halide 

22 fixtures starting on January 1st of 2009, as it's 
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1 shown on this slide in the table in the middle. 

2 There are also exclusions for 

3 lamps-rated wattages from 150 to 500 watts. 

4 Sorry. It covered the lamps from 150 to 500 

5 watts, but it also included exclusion for 

6 fixtures with regulated-lag ballasts, fixtures 

7 with 480-watt electronic ballasts, and 150-watt 

8 fixtures rated for use in wet locations and 

9 elevated temperatures. 

10 So as far as the scope for this 

11 rulemaking, for the standards in this NOPR, DOE 

12 was able to consider additional metal halide 

13 fixtures previously not covered by EISA. We 

14 heard from NEMA on that subject as well. 

15 We are proposing to maintain the 

16 exemptions for fixtures with regulated-lag 

17 ballasts and fixtures with 480-volt electronic 

18 ballasts. However, we are proposing to expand 

19 the coverage to include fixtures from 50 to 2,000 

20 watts, including the previously exempt 150-watt 

21 fixtures that were rated to use in wet locations 

22 and contain ballasts rated for temperatures 
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1 above 50 degrees Celsius. 

2 So we have heard already but we seek 

3 further comments on the appropriateness of 

4 continuing the exemption for the regulated-lag 

5 ballasts. And the second issue, we would seek 

6 comments to continue the exclusion for 480-volt 

7 electronic ballasts. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Boesenberg. 

9 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

10 Boesenberg with NEMA. The NEMA agrees with the 

11 continued exemptions of those two products 

12 mentioned and refers to our earlier comments on 

13 150-watt products. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please? 

15 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from 

16 Philips. Actually, the 150-watt, no matter 

17 what you do with it, there is no way that you will 

18 be able to meet the new efficiency requirement. 

19 No matter how big the ballast is, there is no way. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: From an engineering 

21 point of view? 

22 MR. OOMMEN: From an engineering 
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1 standpoint. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. Okay. 

3 Thank you. 

4 Additional comments on these two 

5 issue boxes? Louis Starr? 

6 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 

7 NEEA. I am wondering if there are any 

8 efficiency requirements that the 150-watt lamps 

9 would be able to meet such that they could be 

10 regulated. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex? 

12 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg 

13 with NEMA. My members are discussing that. We 

14 do not have a final proposal yet. We are 

15 attempting to develop a proposal for all of the 

16 items listed in the NOPR summary. One of the 

17 challenges we are facing is internal discussions 

18 on whether or not there is a better way to 

19 delineate the product classes. And that is a 

20 hurdle I am still trying to make it over before 

21 I can even come up with numbers. 

22 MR. STARR: Do you have a sense? It 
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1 sounded like earlier in the NEMA presentation 

2 that 92 -- I think you all think that may be an 

3 incorrect number -- is something on the 

4 magnitude of 88 more appropriate or is it there's 

5 not really a number that you can really set on 

6 until you get classes defined? 

7 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

8 Boesenberg. I don't have the number yet. I'm 

9 sorry. We will have something by the time we 

10 file written comments. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Daniel? 

12 MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young, 

13 California Utilities. And just another 

14 question, what's the primary technical hurdle 

15 that prevents these from being more efficient or 

16 being made to be more efficient? 

17 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from 

18 Philips. Basically, the I squared ballast 

19 loss. If you look at the I squared ballast 

20 losses and the magnetic losses, all of those 

21 things are concerning. You have a limitation on 

22 how high you can go with the stack heights. And 
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1 so once you reach a plateau, that's it. There 

2 are no more things to give. And it just consumes 

3 more energy. That's about it. And the 

4 limitation is 150 watts, the lamp voltage is 90 

5 volts. So the lamp itself is higher than a 

6 175-watt lamp. So that also creates additional 

7 losses to operate that lamp. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel? 

9 MR. YOUNG: And then what about 

10 using electronic ballasts? 

11 MR. OOMMEN: Yes, there are options 

12 for electronic ballasts, but in some cases, the 

13 sites might be too big for existing fixtures. 

14 And most of the sources right now have been 

15 transferred to LED designs, rather than focusing 

16 on old technologies. So, I mean, in reality, 

17 you know, we have seen the sources cut almost 

18 down to 25 percent from 2005 levels. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Daniel? 

20 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein with 

21 Universal Lighting. Just another thing on the 

22 electronic piece, the electronic HID ballasts 
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1 originally made for high-end retail 

2 applications, like your Louis Vuittons and your 

3 Coach stores, and they're made to go inside a 

4 very controlled atmosphere for a very specialty 

5 clean light, the assumption that you can take 

6 that movement outside at that wattage range, you 

7 have to think about the conditions the ballasts 

8 operate in. So you have extreme temperature 

9 changes, which electronic is not going to like, 

10 which magnetic loves. You are also going to 

11 have the possibility of wet locations, which 

12 electronic is not going to like and magnetic is 

13 fine with. 

14 Then you have the transient issue we 

15 talked about earlier, and that is a big issue. 

16 I mean, when you are outside in a hazardous-type 

17 location, wet, extreme temperature, if you get 

18 any kind of extreme transient voltage through 

19 the power line, which you would get from a 

20 lightning strike, it will fry the ballasts. So 

21 you're going to have to find some way to 

22 accommodate that. 
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1 This is the same reason why when you 

2 go into large manufacturing operations, you 

3 don't see, even today, you don't see, linear 

4 fluorescent being used in there. They still use 

5 magnetic HID because when somebody turns on a big 

6 stamping machine on a 480-volt line, it fries the 

7 ballast, the electronic ballast. 

8 So this is a known thing. I think 

9 this isn't anything that is secretive. I mean, 

10 you go into a big manufacturing facility, a big 

11 stamping plant. Look up. It is going to be 

12 magnetic HID in that facility. So you are 

13 asking to move that in an extreme use 

14 environment, the electronic ballasts out there. 

15 It's just it's not a smart move at all. I mean, 

16 you're asking for a lot of problems. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis? 

18 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 

19 I guess the question is we heard that the size 

20 of the fixture limits the capacity of making a 

21 bigger ballast and then some of the things, like 

22 transient voltages in the ballasts themselves. 
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1 I guess a thought that comes to me is that if you 

2 have one design and you are expecting LEDs to 

3 take over the market, there really is no driver 

4 for making it more efficient, whether it is 

5 changing your fixture size or in the case of LED, 

6 they also had transient voltage problems, too, 

7 but they have kind of worked that out because 

8 they know it's the technology of the future. So 

9 kind of my thought is, what is going to be the 

10 driver for efficiency if it's not standards? 

11 Because if you know you are losing market share, 

12 why would you invest in research and 

13 development? 

14 And so I am kind of wondering from 

15 the manufacturer's viewpoint, how is the market 

16 drove to more efficiency or is the plan just to 

17 figure that LED will replace it and that 

18 efficiency won't really, you know, be a concern 

19 at that point? 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex? 

21 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

22 Boesenberg for NEMA. Any of my members who wish 
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1 can answer that. The NEMA response is that is 

2 a business decision. And so certainly some 

3 people might agree with the NOPR because they 

4 decided to move their business out of HID, for 

5 instance. 

6 But overall my goal is to preserve 

7 the market and competition, capitalism, and keep 

8 the prices down and the options up. And when we 

9 tighten things too far, you get a loss of 

10 competition, manufacturers leaving, and then we 

11 risk also losing performance options because 

12 everyone goes to a commodity cheapest they can 

13 make. And that is another thing. I am not sure 

14 that applies to HID as much as some of the other 

15 lighting products I do, but that is one of our 

16 constant concerns. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith? 

18 MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with 

19 Philips. I think there is another thing that we 

20 need to get out in this discussion. And that is 

21 the fact that this particular market has been 

22 driven by energy efficiency for years. This is 
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1 nothing new. So to think that there are 

2 opportunities to further increase the 

3 efficiency has already been explored because 

4 that is how we compete today. And so we have 

5 drained every last watt out of these devices we 

6 possibly can and still make them economically 

7 viable. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

9 Alex? 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

11 Boesenberg again. I would add to Keith's 

12 comment. Perhaps it's worth pointing out or 

13 trying to clarify. While we're looking at this 

14 from a consumer product standpoint, then the 

15 authority to conduct this rulemaking is a highly 

16 commercial market. It satisfies the 

17 requirement for consumer product according to 

18 statute, but you are looking at a very high 

19 commercial usage rate, which for someone like 

20 sports lighting, the people who own that 

21 facility are aggressively trying to manage their 

22 costs. So they're already trying to get the 
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1 most efficient products. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna? 

3 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just 

4 regarding the challenges associated with 

5 applying electronic ballasts in outdoor 

6 applications, my understanding is that DOE has 

7 thoroughly analyzed the challenges. It has 

8 also incorporated the additional costs that are 

9 associated with being able to successfully apply 

10 electronic ballasts in outdoor applications. 

11 So it seems like that has certainly been taken 

12 into account in the analysis that DOE has 

13 conducted. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

15 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 

16 NEEA. I know one way to make fixtures more 

17 compliant is to make bigger housing, which is the 

18 difficulty Philips was talking about. If you 

19 have a bigger area for housing, you can have a 

20 more efficient one because that is one of the 

21 challenges. 

22 So I am kind of wondering of the 
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1 market -- I am all for a free market, too, but 

2 I am wondering if it's working if, really, we 

3 just pointed out why you can't have a more 

4 efficient ballast and it was just mentioned here 

5 that if you have a bigger box to put the ballast 

6 in, you can have a more efficient fixture or a 

7 ballast light lamp efficiency. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Becky? 

9 MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer with 

10 Eaton Cooper. As you discussed, there would be 

11 a huge cost and huge investment to comply with 

12 this NOPR. And my company, for one, has not made 

13 the decision because most of our resources right 

14 now are really concentrated on solid state 

15 lighting. That is, in our opinion, the light of 

16 the future. So we have actually not made the 

17 decision if we will, in fact, invest in a 

18 technology that we believe has already reached 

19 its max tech. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock? 

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

22 EEI. Just from a, I'll say consumer 
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1 perspective, for entities with existing 

2 fixtures, if you say you have to increase the 

3 size of your fixture to put in a new replacement 

4 ballast, I think that is going to really harm the 

5 economics. I mean, they're already in the 

6 tables we're going to get into later that there 

7 is some showing 14-year median paybacks for a 

8 ballast that is only going to last 10 years. 

9 If you have to resize a housing, 

10 replace a housing, you know, replace the box, 

11 I'll just put it that way. I wouldn't be 

12 surprised if that changes the payback to 20 

13 years, 25 years. I mean, I think it has a 

14 significant impact on the life cycle cost 

15 analysis. If that is basically the requirement 

16 where, okay, the solution is a bigger ballast for 

17 all fixtures, including existing fixtures, then 

18 the economics could get a lot worst in my view. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl English? 

20 MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, 

21 Acuity Brands. Really, kind of following on 

22 Steve's comments, two things I'd like to address 
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1 are with larger size, we have to make the 

2 fixtures larger. We're using more natural 

3 resources. So from a sustainability 

4 standpoint, fixture manufacturers have this 

5 conflicting environmental impact of energy and 

6 using steel, aluminum, copper materials. So 

7 the smaller size does have an environmental 

8 impact, positive environmental impact. 

9 Also, a larger size if we had to 

10 redesign for outdoor fixtures would require 

11 larger poles. And they're again more resources 

12 in terms of the pole and wind-loading 

13 requirements. 

14 With regard to the payback, DOE has 

15 done an analysis. And my comment here is that 

16 it is within the provisions for DOE's 

17 determination of cost-effectiveness. I think 

18 there is a huge disconnect between the 

19 guidelines of what DOE works under on 

20 cost-effectiveness in the marketplace. The 

21 paybacks don't match at all. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chris, do you 
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1 want in here? 

2 MR. HOLSTEIN: Yes. Just Chris 

3 Holstein with Universal Lighting. Just one 

4 other thing. I mean, when we talk about this 

5 ruling, really, there are two pieces here. 

6 There is the OEM with our counterparts here that 

7 are making new fixtures. Then there's the 

8 replacement market. And, as Chacko said of 

9 Philips, you know, the way to make these things 

10 more efficient is to make them bigger, which 

11 changes the outside housing. But you guys have 

12 to remember the installed base is a big issue. 

13 I mean, when you drive down the street today on 

14 your way home, look up at all the lights and think 

15 about it. If that thing has to get bigger, the 

16 poles have to get bigger. If those things have 

17 to be redone, the replacement market, it will be 

18 a nightmare. 

19 And then just the other piece I 

20 wanted to say is on the LED side, when we come 

21 to regulations like this, it forces 

22 manufacturers to go back and work on technology 
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1 that is on its way out and declining. And it 

2 just completely diverts resources from LED 

3 development. And that's just, you know, we like 

4 to be focusing on the future and stop focusing 

5 on the old technology. Rulings like this make 

6 us focus on the old technology. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex? 

8 MR. HOFMANN: Alex Hofmann, APPA. 

9 As nonprofit consumers of these types of 

10 products for street lighting, we are very 

11 concerned about any type of lighting solution 

12 that ends up disliking extreme conditions or wet 

13 conditions or lightning conditions and doesn't 

14 tolerate large draws. 

15 Also, we're very concerned about 

16 options and prices. And, again, the fit is a big 

17 issue for us. For existing lighting fixtures, 

18 you're talking a large increase in cost. I'd 

19 say, you know, if you end up in a situation where 

20 you just can't get the product you need to 

21 replace the ballasts on, say, the fixture you 

22 have, for new things, talking large poles, 
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1 different design specs, wind loading, those are 

2 also significant cost adders. So I would just 

3 like to make our concerns known. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

5 Joanna, do you want to comment here? 

6 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Yes, 

7 just briefly. My understanding is also that DOE 

8 has thoroughly analyzed this question of would 

9 fixtures have to be redesigned, you know, would 

10 ballasts increase in size. And I believe that 

11 the conclusion is that ballasts would not need 

12 to increase in size to meet the levels that were 

13 proposed in the NOPR. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis and then 

15 Daniel? 

16 MR. STARR: You know, my point is 

17 not necessarily for advocating for bigger 

18 fixtures, the same size fixtures. My point more 

19 is that they mention the free capital system. 

20 The size of the fixture to some extent was picked 

21 at some point in the past. And my point is that 

22 the standards process helped the free and the 
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1 capitalism or free market system work. In this 

2 case, the standards in general, not necessarily 

3 particularly these ones, but my point is that the 

4 free market is not necessarily working without 

5 the operation of standards interacting in that 

6 market. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel? 

8 MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young, 

9 California Utilities. Just to clarify that, 

10 again, this is a new fixture standard. Right? 

11 So it wouldn't apply to existing fixtures, where 

12 you would have to replace the ballasts. Is 

13 that -- 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris on the record. 

15 Go ahead. Say it. 

16 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein, 

17 Universal Lighting. It's all ballasts. It's 

18 distribution and OEM. It's everything. It's 

19 not just new fixtures. 

20 MS. DeBUTTS: Matthew? 

21 MR. WALKER: This rulemaking does 

22 only cover ballasts used in new fixtures. 
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1 That's a clarification to make. And then I 

2 wanted to ask the question, particularly of 

3 manufacturers, given that information, is the 

4 expectation that the replacement ballast market 

5 would follow the efficiency of ballasts used in 

6 new or would there be two ballast efficiencies 

7 in the market? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to go back to 

9 Chris. And you can clarify that you were 

10 thinking, the potential for misunderstanding 

11 here. Go ahead. 

12 MR. HOLSTEIN: Yes. The intent of 

13 the ruling, irregardless, nobody is going to 

14 continue down the path of manufacturing the 

15 complete life cycle and marketing and selling on 

16 two efficiency standards of a product, a class 

17 that is declining, right? I mean, as a company, 

18 we are not going to keep the old set and then 

19 redesign every single one of those ballasts and 

20 then have a second set. I mean, that assumption 

21 by Navigant is absolutely incorrect. I don't 

22 think there is a manufacturer in here -- and they 
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1 can correct me if they're wrong -- who will keep 

2 two lines with this ruling. Whatever your 

3 intent is, you are effectively writing out into 

4 one rule that affects the entire market. 

5 Can I address a comment that was made 

6 by the lady here as well? 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Yes. 

8 MR. HOLSTEIN: I don't remember her 

9 name. 

10 The NOPR itself actually believes 

11 that the size of the ballasts will not increase. 

12 And they are absolutely 100 percent incorrect. 

13 They are wrong, which means that all of the 

14 financial analysis, the payback, the impact to 

15 manufacturers, the impact to the market, none of 

16 that in this analysis is correct. They are 

17 absolutely incorrect. These things will 

18 increase in size. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're 

20 talking about the difference between like a 

21 statutory interpretation and the practical 

22 application. I think that's the divide here 
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1 that we're wrangling with. Let's make sure 

2 we're clear on this. 

3 Rebecca? 

4 MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer, Eaton 

5 Cooper. To answer Matthew's question, we do 

6 understand the ruling that legacy products are 

7 the install base. We could still provide the 

8 previous standard on our ballasts, 88 percent. 

9 We are a lighting manufacturer of 

10 fixtures, but we also produce our own ballasts. 

11 But we for one would in no way consider keeping 

12 two different ballast efficiency standards. 

13 It's just not economically feasible. 

14 And, to Chris' point, the ballasts 

15 would indeed have to grow in size. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve 

17 Rosenstock? 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

19 EEI. I guess I'm a little confused because when 

20 I look at table I.1, I don't see anything in that 

21 table about replacement fixtures. It just says 

22 this is a standard for all new fixtures. It's 
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1 really a ballast, like I said before. I know it 

2 will affect every fixture. But to me, this 

3 reads like, "For any new ballast meeting these 

4 specs, regardless if it's going to an existing 

5 or new fixture, it has to meet these standards." 

6 I didn't see anything in here -- what? 

7 MR. BOESENBERG: The rule is for 

8 fixtures. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. The rule is 

10 for fixtures. Okay. So people, 

11 manufacturers, will be allowed to make 

12 replacement ballasts for existing fixtures. Is 

13 that what I'm hearing? 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Matthew? 

15 MR. WALKER: Yes. This is Matthew 

16 Walker, Navigant. That is the correct 

17 description from a statutory/legal point of 

18 view. This rulemaking, the scope of the 

19 rulemaking, is to affect ballasts sold in new 

20 fixtures. However, it seems that there is a 

21 conversation about the practical impact on the 

22 replacement market. But technically from a DOE 
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1 statutory point of view, it is a rulemaking that 

2 covers ballasts shipped in new fixtures, sold in 

3 new fixtures. 

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Only in new 

5 fixtures? 

6 MR. WALKER: Correct. 

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: As, I'll say, like 

8 a fluorescent lamp ballast, it was all ballast, 

9 regardless of new or existing after -- 

10 MR. WALKER: Fluorescent lamp. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. Okay. 

12 That's why I was thinking about the fluorescent 

13 lamp ballast. Okay. Thank you very much. 

14 That helps clarify. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I do think we gained 

16 some clarity on this point. I think we're 

17 getting there. Any additional comments on this 

18 before we move on to other matters? Daniel? 

19 MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young, 

20 California Utilities. Just a quick comment. 

21 So the issue of the ballasts increasing in size, 

22 I think that really only applies to the magnetic 
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1 ballasts, correct? If it's an electronic 

2 ballast, it doesn't increase in size. There are 

3 other concerns that the gentleman from Universal 

4 described, but, again, I know that in the NOPR, 

5 DOE has tried to address them. Maybe you have 

6 concerns with their assumptions. And maybe 

7 we'll talk about that later, but -- 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, do you wish to 

9 comment? 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

11 Boesenberg with NEMA. I guess my members can 

12 provide additional scientific detail, but the 

13 added capabilities of weather-resistant, surge 

14 resistance, and whatnot temperature, thermal 

15 ruggedness, you have to add something to do that. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko? 

17 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips 

18 Electronics. You know, I see as far as the 

19 efficiency is concerned, even for electronics, 

20 it has saturated for low-frequency ballasts. 

21 Of course, I see, you know, as we mentioned 

22 earlier, there are no standards for 
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1 high-frequency electronic ballasts right now. 

2 And so there are some measurement errors that 

3 could be used that give you a false reading 

4 basically. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure. 

6 Are you moving us on? I want to clear this up 

7 now as best we can. Any additional comments on 

8 this before moving on? Yes, please? That 

9 microphone ought to be on. 

10 MR. GREEN: John Green with Eaton 

11 Cooper Lighting. There was a point made that 

12 replacement ballasts could be the same size. 

13 Unfortunately, it brings up another issue that 

14 we have fixtures that get damaged. And in an 

15 installation of hundreds of fixtures, you may 

16 have to replace one or two in the future. And 

17 if they're bigger size, they're going to have 

18 to -- if it's a new fixture, it would have to take 

19 the bigger ballast. So we end up with fixtures 

20 not matching in installations. So I think 

21 that's an important fact to keep in mind. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: All that embedded 
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1 infrastructure? 

2 MR. GREEN: Yes. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Gotcha. I 

4 think we've got that now. 

5 Okay. Louis? 

6 MR. STARR: Kind of one question. 

7 I can understand that maybe a company wouldn't 

8 produce both new ballasts, at the same time maybe 

9 keep an existing line. But there are companies 

10 that do nothing but provide replacement parts. 

11 Auto industry is one. You can have companies do 

12 nothing but provide replacement parts for that. 

13 Wouldn't that be the same in electrical? In 

14 other words, there's a market. If there are 

15 100,000 customers out there that need 

16 replacement ballasts, someone will be making 

17 those replacement ballasts for that market. If 

18 you're just continuing the existing line that 

19 you have, it seems like that that would be an 

20 obvious solution to me. If you could speak to 

21 it, that would be good. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris? 
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1 MR. HOLSTEIN: Yes. This is Chris, 

2 Universal. I mean, at the end of the day, there 

3 are most likely four people or four 

4 manufacturing entities that represent probably 

5 80 to 90 percent of this market in the U.S. 

6 From a feasibility standpoint and 

7 future standpoint for those companies, they are 

8 going to put their efforts towards the solid 

9 state lighting. They are not going to go out and 

10 want to redesign in the manufacture and the 

11 inventory and increase all of their carrying 

12 costs and not go down the list to have two 

13 efficiency lines on HID. Does that open up 

14 competition for offshore manufacturers to come 

15 on board? You know, it can. And what it is 

16 going to do is it is going to bring in product 

17 that is not as well made as what is in the market 

18 today that is going to have warranty problems and 

19 quality problems. And it is not going to be a 

20 pretty picture at the end of the day. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we've pretty 

22 much covered this one. But, Rebecca, if you've 
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1 got final comments? 

2 MS. RAINER: Just one little 

3 comment to that. When you remarked that there 

4 could be other people that come in just for the 

5 replacement market, a lighting fixture usually 

6 is UL-listed with only a certain type of ballast. 

7 For instance, mine may be only listed with my 

8 ballast. Once you bring in another supplier's 

9 ballasts, you may have fit issues. You may have 

10 thermal issues because they're not all the same. 

11 So you have to be careful when you're replacing 

12 that you replace as much as possible in kind with 

13 what you have out there already. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm 

15 returning to Lucy. And we're going to continue 

16 with the PowerPoint slides that you have in front 

17 of you. 

18 MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. So at this 

19 point, I would like to discuss the system 

20 approach that DOE considered. So before 

21 deciding on ballast efficiency for this rule, 

22 the DOE also considered three system approaches 
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1 as an alternative. And these are listed on this 

2 slide. First we have considered a lamp and 

3 ballast system approach in which the lamp and 

4 ballast would be rated together in terms of 

5 lumens or lumen ballast system watt. 

6 DOE ruled this approach out because 

7 this would be burdensome for fixture 

8 manufacturers having to identify and track which 

9 lamp and ballast combinations were compliant as 

10 well as utilities being required to keep a large 

11 stock of products. There is also a concern that 

12 the original lamps sold in the fixture, when it 

13 fails, it could be easy to replace with a 

14 lower-efficiency lamp. 

15 The second approach that we 

16 considered was the one in which the ballast, 

17 lamp, and optics or enclosure would all be rated 

18 together in terms of a fixture-level metric, 

19 such as fitted target efficiency or target 

20 efficiency rating. However, we determined that 

21 these current metrics are inadequate in 

22 assessing all the fixtures included in this 
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1 rulemaking. 

2 The last approach DOE considered is 

3 similar to California Title 20, which allowed 

4 for multiple compliance pathways utilizing a 

5 combination of design standards, ballast 

6 efficiency standards, and lamp wattage 

7 requirements. The issue with this approach is 

8 that it risks reducing energy savings while 

9 complicating enforcement. Also, requiring 

10 dimming and controls does not ensure energy 

11 savings. Nor are these technologies widely 

12 available in metal halide lamps. 

13 So, in the end, DOE rejected all of 

14 these three approaches. And we are proposing to 

15 continue setting standards based on ballast 

16 efficiency. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments, questions 

18 here? 

19 (No response.) 

20 MS. DeBUTTS: No? Okay. As 

21 mentioned earlier, DOE is proposing changes to 

22 the test procedure as well. Metal halide 
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1 ballasts can accept a variety of input wattages 

2 with different wattages chosen based on the 

3 application and the use of the fixture. Changes 

4 in efficiency on the order of several percent are 

5 also observed in individual ballasts based on 

6 the wattage in which they are tested. 

7 To ensure uniformity in testing, DOE 

8 proposes to specify the input voltage at which 

9 a ballast is to be tested based on its wattage. 

10 Based on the most common wattage/voltage 

11 combination, under 150 watts would be tested at 

12 150-volt. Greater than or equal than 150-watt 

13 would be tested at 277-volt. And if those 

14 voltages are not available, then the ballasts 

15 would be tested at the highest available 

16 voltage. 

17 DOE also found that the current test 

18 procedure did not apply to high-frequency 

19 electronic ballasts. Therefore, we are 

20 proposing to amend the test procedure to specify 

21 the instrumentation required to test 

22 high-frequency electronic ballasts so that they 
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1 can be considered in this rulemaking. 

2 And, last, DOE proposed to rounding 

3 wattage to the nearest tenth of the watt, which 

4 was mentioned earlier, and calculating 

5 efficiency to the nearest tenth of a percent. 

6 So in this slide, we have two issue 

7 boxes. And we're seeking comments on the 

8 appropriateness of the proposed amendments to 

9 the test procedure as well as comments on 

10 appropriateness of DOE testing metal halide lamp 

11 fixtures as a single input voltage based on the 

12 lamp wattage operated with the ballast. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Boesenberg? 

14 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

15 Boesenberg from NEMA. I'll speak to a couple of 

16 those. We have already mentioned our concerns 

17 about rounding. And I will restate our concerns 

18 about the potential impact of the change to the 

19 test procedure via the standard on currently 

20 regulated products, which are being reported. 

21 My members are collecting 

22 information. They have to dig through their 
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1 test data to do it because the certification 

2 database doesn't list decimal integers, 

3 numbers. So they're looking through to see how 

4 many round the wrong way, if you will, or are 

5 rounded up that wouldn't otherwise pass how many 

6 of the 89.7s are there and they're reported as 

7 90. So if the rule becomes set at 90.0, they 

8 won't pass, for an example. I don't have an 

9 answer on that yet to clarify for those present. 

10 We did dig into it. 

11 The DOE is permitted to change the 

12 test procedure, in this case the 2009 test 

13 procedure, via a standards action as long as the 

14 impact to products that are tested already and 

15 reported under the previous procedure are not 

16 adversely impacted and there is no actual number 

17 but there is an obligation of the Department to 

18 examine or consider if products will be 

19 delisted. So we are trying to help provide that 

20 information. 

21 I also want to speak to -- I'm trying 

22 to remember where I was. Oh, I want to clarify. 
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1 I didn't want to interrupt Tom Harding earlier 

2 when he mentioned that ANSI is just getting to 

3 the high-frequency test procedures and 

4 compatibility standards. It's that they're 

5 finally making progress. They've been talking 

6 about it probably for ten years. 

7 In my previous job at NEMA, I was 

8 leading the task force on high-intensity, 

9 discharge lamp compatibility. They were some 

10 of the most difficult and loud meetings I've ever 

11 run because of that wide gamut of ballasts in 

12 lamps and the fact that not all ballasts will 

13 operate all lamps, even if you can indeed plug 

14 it into the fixture. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That's why you left 

16 that prior position? 

17 (Laughter.) 

18 MR. BOESENBERG: It certainly 

19 wasn't one of the things making me want to stay. 

20 So I did want to clarify that it's not an interest 

21 we have been ignoring but that in an unregulated 

22 area where manufacturers are pursuing their own 
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1 product lines and their own solutions, when you 

2 come time to try to throw a rope around it and 

3 tighten it, it is extremely challenging. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think we have 

5 addressed eight yet. Maybe I missed that. 

6 Additional comments here? Louis, 

7 do you want to? 

8 MR. STARR: This is a question for 

9 I guess DOE. One thing, on the voltage/wattage 

10 that you're checking out, you're taking the 

11 highest one. Is there a thought of maybe 

12 looking at what the market share is and picking 

13 it based on a weighted average; in other words, 

14 if most of the fixtures in a given class are at 

15 277, using that? 

16 And then a second question is more 

17 for the manufacturer. It sounds like ANSI 

18 standard is one percent. Is that kind of what 

19 you are angling for on this or has there not 

20 really been a set-upon value of what the accuracy 

21 of the percentage of the ballast requirements 

22 should be? 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris? 

2 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with 

3 Universal. Just the C82.6, the way it is 

4 written today, it is written around a one percent 

5 accuracy level, right? So that is what the 

6 whole industry is built around. And even when 

7 you look at the actual -- and some of the 

8 electrical engineers can speak because I'm not 

9 one. But even when you look at the test 

10 equipment itself, most of that isn't even 

11 calibrated down to that level when we get to the 

12 HID side of the world the way we look at it today. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex? 

14 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

15 Boesenberg from NEMA. I now remember the other 

16 point I wanted to make, and Chris helped me 

17 remember. When the accuracy of the test 

18 procedure and the accuracy of the test 

19 instruments is less than the requirement, what 

20 we run into is a future problem that we are -- the 

21 right thing to do is solve it now to where we 

22 don't get into enforcement difficulties later 
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1 and have to ask for increased tolerances during 

2 verification and enforcement actions where the 

3 DOE -- you know, we have standards in effect 

4 today where we argued during the process that it 

5 was the same sort of situation. And the way that 

6 it is being solved is that we are being granted 

7 greater tolerances during enforcement action 

8 because of the laws of physics. Okay. Great. 

9 We want to do this right the first time and not 

10 have a tighter tolerance applied to the 

11 efficiency level than can reliably be produced 

12 or measured. 

13 And I understand that raising it up 

14 .5 does improve the analysis numbers at the end 

15 of the day, how much energy we are going to save, 

16 but if we can't verify it, then it's not really 

17 true. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Several individuals 

19 wish to comment. Joe first and then Steve 

20 Rosenstock. 

21 MR. HOWLEY: Okay. So this is a 

22 comment on the single input voltage of the 
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1 ballast. Manufacturers will design ballasts 

2 optimally at a single-input voltage and 

3 typically the highest-volume voltage but then 

4 have multi-taps for other voltages that might be 

5 required but typically at a lower, slightly 

6 lower, efficiency when you go to the other 

7 voltages. 

8 Therefore, we believe the ballasts 

9 should be just tested at one voltage, but it 

10 should be up to the manufacturer to declare where 

11 that ballast was optimally designed at. And 

12 typically in the highest-volume voltage is where 

13 it's designed at. And it's optimized for that. 

14 So just saying it's always the 

15 highest voltage isn't true. It may be the 

16 highest voltage. It may be some other voltage. 

17 But it should be a single voltage, we believe, 

18 that is declared by the manufacturer. We prefer 

19 that kind of flexibility versus the highest 

20 voltage. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve? 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 
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1 EEI. I guess the other thing is for some of 

2 these efficiency levels for different ballasts, 

3 there is, you know, less than a percent 

4 difference in some of these levels, it seems 

5 like, based on some of the formulas. 

6 And, you know, I think this test 

7 procedure -- you know, I know hopefully it will 

8 be finalized, you know, at the same time or 

9 earlier before the final rule comes out, but it's 

10 obviously a huge issue. I mean, you are talking 

11 about these little increments. And if just the 

12 error of the equipment is bigger than those 

13 little increments, you might not have gained 

14 anything. 

15 And I think that this is -- you know, 

16 if you can't measure it, how does any customer 

17 know if it's 91.5 plus or minus one percent? 

18 That's just reality. Well, that makes all the 

19 difference in terms of the standard. I think it 

20 needs to be reasonable. And I think if because 

21 of the current state of the art with test 

22 equipment the best they can do under ANSI is plus 
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1 or minus one percent, that really needs to be 

2 taken into account in whatever efficiency 

3 standards you're setting. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Tim Ballo? 

6 MR. BALLO: Two quick comments. 

7 One, you know, in certifying your product to DOE, 

8 you are always permitted to rate it 

9 conservatively. So if the rounding is a 

10 concern, you rate it with a little bit of a 

11 cushion. 

12 The other issue is there was a point 

13 made about an amendment to the test procedure 

14 that added another significant digit would 

15 potentially affect products that are just 

16 slightly below the standard but round up to meet 

17 the standard under the current integral 

18 percentage value that is used. While that is 

19 certainly something that DOE should consider, I 

20 don't believe it is correct that those products 

21 would have to be continued to be judged compliant 

22 provided that the test procedure changes would 
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1 take effect at the time the new standard would 

2 also take effect. So if they both take effect 

3 in 2015, those products would not have to be 

4 grandfathered in under the statute. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

6 Alex? 

7 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

8 NEMA. Perhaps DOE can clarify that point. 

9 It's my understanding in reading the statute 

10 that when you use the avenue of adjusting a test 

11 procedure via an energy conservation standard, 

12 since the test procedure is already in effect, 

13 the changes take effect immediately. If it is 

14 delayed until the three years or whenever the new 

15 standard kicks in, I would agree with Mr. Ballo's 

16 statement. 

17 MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from 

18 the General Counsel's Office. I think it might 

19 depend how we draft it, but typically we draft 

20 it such that a new test procedure requirement is 

21 optionally available for use by manufacturers 

22 before the compliance date but is only required 
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1 to be used at the compliance date. 

2 As you know, we typically amend our 

3 test procedures in a separate rulemaking. We do 

4 have authority to do it within a standards 

5 rulemaking. I think we could adjust for that 

6 based on the wording of the compliance date. 

7 And we have in the past allowed for optional use 

8 of the test procedure before the standards 

9 compliance. 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg 

11 with NEMA. Thank you. 

12 So also something I will note for us 

13 to do is we could simply request an FAQ after the 

14 final rule is published for the DOE to formally 

15 state somewhere in the FAQs that currently 

16 qualified products don't have to use it as well. 

17 MR. ALTMAN: We could certainly do 

18 that, but at the same time, we will take into 

19 consideration making that clear in the 

20 regulation itself. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Please? Your name 

22 for the record? 
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1 MR. DUFFY: Yes. This is Mark 

2 Duffy from GE. I would like to make a comment 

3 about the cushion that was suggested a few 

4 moments ago where you could overdesign or 

5 underrate. That cushion translates into real 

6 size material costs and all the things that we 

7 talked about in larger luminaires, things that 

8 can't be replaced when a natural disaster like 

9 Sandy takes out the majority of lighting section 

10 in a subdivision. They no longer have 

11 replacement options. That cushion adds to the 

12 size of the ballast that needs to be designed if 

13 it's going to be designed that way. 

14 So thank you very much. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I presume 

16 that NEMA or someone will document the 

17 limitations of the testing equipment, then, that 

18 sort of thing, for DOE. 

19 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg. 

20 Yes. We have put that in our draft written 

21 comments and will expand on it. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 
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1 Louis? 

2 MR. STARR: Just one last question 

3 on the uncertainty in the testing. So you have 

4 one percent. And then we heard earlier that the 

5 coil sizes can change size and the lamination on 

6 the coil. So the magnetic coils can change. So 

7 that means there is uncertainty in the ballasts 

8 themselves. And so the testing, the actual 

9 testing, equipment is one percent. 

10 So how do you account when you go to 

11 rate a ballast and you know there is uncertainty 

12 in your manufacturing processes of your 

13 ballasts? How do you determine like this 

14 ballast is 91 percent efficient? If you know 

15 there is uncertainty in that ballast, how does 

16 that all work together? 

17 MR. HOLSTEIN: Today we do it via a 

18 test procedure. It's random sampling from 

19 production runs. So when we pull random samples 

20 out, we test those. And that's how we report 

21 efficiency. What we are speaking of in that, as 

22 you move any efficiency number and you regulate 
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1 it, any of these, we have to move up in 

2 efficiency. And now you have to think of that 

3 the majority of this market is not covered. Now 

4 we have got to equate for this 99 percent 

5 confidence level. That's even higher that you 

6 have to design for because it's basically based 

7 off how many standard deviations of your product 

8 can you fit, right? So you have to be 99 percent 

9 certain that within whatever you are testing, 

10 however many of the standard deviations, so the 

11 wider your spread is, so the more variation you 

12 get, that plus or minus three percent on the 

13 magnetic wire, the plus or minus 10 percent 

14 laminations, that means your standard deviation 

15 is going to be wider spread on a random sample, 

16 which means you're going to have to overdesign 

17 even more. 

18 If it was a product where the 

19 variations are very small part to part, material 

20 to material, manufacturing to manufacturing, 

21 your standard deviation is going to be a lot 

22 smaller, which means you don't have to 
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1 overdesign as much to reach the 99 percent 

2 confidence level. 

3 So in this product, there is really 

4 not a lot to a magnetic ballast, right? You've 

5 got steel, which we all know is cheap, not 

6 really. And you've got magnet wire. So you 

7 have two major pieces of losses in the 

8 efficiency. And we know based off of just prior 

9 history, just the way this stuff is 

10 manufactured, you get a lot of variation. 

11 So we could produce a run today and 

12 test ten samples. We could produce a run six 

13 months from now that has completely different 

14 batches, run a random set of ten samples. And 

15 the efficiency will be different, right? And 

16 that's what we start talking about. And then we 

17 get into the whole enforcement and certification 

18 piece. You know, when you start adding in all 

19 of these factors, it is daunting. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis? 

21 MR. STARR: What is your confidence 

22 interval now? I mean, you must have something, 
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1 right, when you produce a product or the design 

2 of the magnetic core in your lamination? You 

3 must have confidence interval that you're within 

4 that. It sounds like you're not using two 

5 standard deviations. What might you be using? 

6 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with Universal 

7 again. This isn't required under the current 

8 ruling, EISA 2007. We have tested. And I have 

9 to go back and revisit how that is written. We 

10 are dealing with this today on the linear 

11 fluorescent side as well. So we're getting a 

12 lot more knowledge on that as we're preparing for 

13 our submission of data. 

14 So this is new learning for 

15 everybody because the new test procedure I think 

16 was released in -- no. The CCE test procedure. 

17 That was -- it's a new test procedure that 

18 requires a 99 percent confidence level. So as 

19 products roll into that, we have to learn how 

20 those products react with the 99 percent 

21 confidence level. 

22 MR. STARR: But currently your 
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1 products, you must have something or no? It 

2 sounds like with the new standard, you haven't 

3 done that before, but you are now. And it sounds 

4 like you might have a recommendation coming out 

5 of this. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex? 

7 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

8 Boesenberg with NEMA. I want to clarify that 

9 you are asking questions about how they mark and 

10 rate their products. So Chris' answer is just 

11 Universal's policy. Every company makes their 

12 own decisions as to how to approach that 

13 question. I won't call it a problem. It's this 

14 question. How are you going to apply the rules, 

15 I'll call it, of statistical variation and the 

16 regulations and the enforcement regulation. 

17 And, you know, most of the reporting 

18 is done for rated. And rated means a certain 

19 number of samples are taken and treated a certain 

20 way. And at the end of the day, you have a 

21 number. And often you have to either round it 

22 or just decide to make it higher or lower. 
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1 Rating, there are some arbitrary decisions made. 

2 And so those are made by the individual companies 

3 in accordance with their own policies. 

4 Some companies rate very 

5 conservatively. Other companies rate very 

6 optimistically. And we tried to -- NEMA is 

7 working right now with other rulemakings because 

8 we had a meeting this week with the DOE with a 

9 big, long spreadsheet of questions about what is 

10 the right way to do this one, what is the right 

11 way to report this one because we want to all be 

12 reporting the same so the database doesn't show 

13 these wide fluctuations in efficiency of a 

14 product which shouldn't have any. And it's due 

15 to these decisions being made. It's often just 

16 interpretation. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on. 

18 Daniel, have you got the final thing here? 

19 MR. YOUNG: It's a question for 

20 manufacturers. Sorry to draw this out but just 

21 basically Chris mentioned a recent experience 

22 with fluorescent ballasts also needing to 
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1 confirm to a similar derating scheme, I guess, 

2 using statistical analysis. And I was just 

3 wondering if you could compare the two just 

4 technologically in terms of the HID ballasts or 

5 the metal halide ballasts versus the fluorescent 

6 ballast test procedures and then the system for 

7 certification, if there are any major 

8 differences that make it more difficult for the 

9 metal halides versus the fluorescent surface, 

10 equally difficult for both or -- 

11 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris, Universal. 

12 At this point, we have not gone back and tried 

13 to retest everything to this new test procedure 

14 because we don't know what the final number is 

15 going to be. It would be a waste of resources 

16 and time. So today I can't tell you how that is 

17 going to work out. Then when the final rule is 

18 published, then we'll start pulling samples and 

19 redoing all of our testing. 

20 I mean, just to put it in 

21 perspective, it takes three to four months for 

22 us to go through just the linear test procedure 
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1 that we're working with today. So we will have 

2 to do the same thing with HID. It will take 

3 months to come up with the numbers. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on. Keep 

5 going. 

6 MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. And now with a 

7 presentation is Matthew Chester from Navigant 

8 Consulting. 

9 MR. CHESTER: Good morning. Once 

10 again, my name is Matt Chester, and I am with 

11 Navigant Consulting. I am going to talk next 

12 about the market and technology assessment and 

13 the screening analysis. 

14 So here we see an expansion of the 

15 NOPR stage. This is our current stage. And 

16 this shows the analyses that comprise it. We'll 

17 start with the market and technology assessment. 

18 Equipment classes are the first 

19 output of the market and technology assessment. 

20 And equipment class establishes the category of 

21 fixtures that will be subject to the same 

22 standard. In deciding how to group equipment 
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1 classes, DOE considers the type of energy used, 

2 the capacity of the equipment, and other 

3 performance-related features that affect 

4 consumer utility. 

5 So the first equipment 

6 class-setting factor we'll be discussing is the 

7 input voltage. DOE is proposing to have one set 

8 of equipment classes for those ballasts tested 

9 at 480 volts according to the test procedure 

10 changes we just discussed and another set of 

11 equipment classes for ballast tested at all 

12 other voltages. 

13 When we analyzed the efficiency 

14 trends of commercially available ballasts, DOE 

15 found that dedicated 480-volt ballasts are less 

16 efficient than ballasts with comparable 

17 characteristics that are at quad-voltage or able 

18 to operate at voltages of 120, 208, 240, or 277. 

19 In terms of consumer utility, 

20 different applications of metal halide lamp 

21 fixtures demand specific voltages. And, for 

22 those reasons, DOE proposes separate equipment 
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1 classes based on the input voltage. And at this 

2 time, DOE seeks comment on the appropriateness 

3 of a separate equipment class for ballasts 

4 tested at 480 volts. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have an 

6 industry representative that wishes to comment? 

7 No comment here. Chacko? 

8 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen, Philips 

9 Electronics. Something that you have to keep in 

10 mind, you know, we are trying to increase the 

11 efficiency more and more, but in some cases, when 

12 you try to do a multi-tab design for magnetic 

13 ballasts, it makes it more difficult because now 

14 you have to make sure that your tabs are exactly 

15 in the right location. And when you have 

16 variations in the tab voltages, it makes it more 

17 difficult to meet the requirements. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm hoping 

19 that someone can address what is in issue box 13. 

20 I thought that was useful. There is more 

21 content here, right, the appropriateness of 

22 separate equipment classes for ballasts tested 
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1 at 480 volts? 

2 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

3 Boesenberg, NEMA. I will note we will address 

4 it in our written comments. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

6 MR. BOESENBERG: We just don't have 

7 anything to say specifically today. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very much. 

9 That is helpful. 

10 Okay. We're moving on. 

11 MR. CHESTER: Okay. So the next 

12 thing DOE looked at was the potential of using 

13 application as a class-setting factor, 

14 specifically whether a fixture was designated 

15 for indoor or outdoor use. 

16 DOE found that the maximum 

17 achievable ballast efficiencies in outdoor and 

18 indoor fixtures are identical since they can use 

19 the same ballasts. However, in order to use a 

20 more efficient electronic ballast outdoors, it 

21 is necessary to fit the fixture with added 

22 protection since, as we heard earlier, 
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1 electronic ballasts are not as robust as 

2 magnetic ballasts, they are susceptible to high 

3 temperatures and voltage surges and these are 

4 common in outdoor applications. 

5 However, DOE found that with the 

6 proper adjustments to the fixture, the same 

7 electronic ballasts can be used outdoors as 

8 indoors. Thermal protection can be added to 

9 guard from high temperatures. And external 

10 surge protection or internal transient 

11 protection can be used to protect the ballasts 

12 from voltage transients. However, these added 

13 features to outdoor fixtures do add incremental 

14 costs. And this affects the cost-efficiency 

15 relationship of fixtures for outdoor use. 

16 So since the applications provide 

17 separate utility and affect the cost-efficiency 

18 relationships, DOE proposes separate equipment 

19 classes for indoor and outdoor fixtures. 

20 So in order to effectively separate 

21 indoor and outdoor fixtures, DOE considers 

22 outdoor fixtures to be those that are rated for 
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1 use in wet locations and have ten kilovolts of 

2 voltage transient protection while fixtures not 

3 meeting both of these criteria are indoor 

4 fixtures. DOE considers a fixture to be rated 

5 for use in wet locations if it meets the criteria 

6 for wet location rating in either the National 

7 Electrical Code 2011 or the Underwriters 

8 Laboratories 1598. For the 10 kilo voltage 

9 pulse withstand requirement, DOE refers to ANSI 

10 C136.2-2004. 

11 At this time, DOE seeks comment on 

12 the appropriateness of placing indoor and 

13 outdoor fixtures into separate equipment 

14 classes. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? 

16 Alex? 

17 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

18 Boesenberg with NEMA. As I mentioned earlier, 

19 we are trying to or are considering alternative 

20 product class distinctions. So I'm not able as 

21 NEMA to comment on this at this time. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 
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1 Any additional comments here? 

2 (No response.) 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

4 MR. CHESTER: Okay. So the last 

5 equipment -- 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Excuse me. 

7 MR. CHESTER: Oh, sorry. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: We do have Alex. 

9 MR. HOFMANN: Just a quick kind of 

10 at-a-glance thought here. It makes sense 

11 to -- Alex, APPA. Sorry. It makes sense to us 

12 that indoor and outdoor fixtures would be in 

13 separate equipment classes because they do have 

14 separate uses. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

17 MR. CHESTER: So the last equipment 

18 class-setting factor we will be discussing is 

19 the lamp wattage. As lamp wattage increases, 

20 DOE found that the ballast efficiency also 

21 generally increases. For example, in 

22 electronic ballasts, they have a certain amount 
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1 of fixed losses attributed to their components. 

2 And as the wattage increases, these fixed losses 

3 account for a smaller portion of the total losses 

4 unless the efficiency increases. 

5 With this knowledge, DOE 

6 empirically develops mathematical 

7 relationships between ballast efficiency and 

8 the rated lamp wattage. DOE is able to use these 

9 equations for the efficiency standards in this 

10 rulemaking. 

11 This approach differed from a binned 

12 approach where all of the lamps in a given 

13 equipment class would be subject to the same 

14 consonant efficiency standard. Such a binned 

15 approach would result in fixtures of different 

16 wattages being subject to the same efficiency 

17 requirement. Because of the previously 

18 explained relationship between increased lamp 

19 wattage and increased ballast efficiency, this 

20 would result in a standard being easier to meet 

21 for ballasts at the high-wattage end of these 

22 bins. Instead, DOE defines efficiency levels 
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1 using equations to ensure a fair treatment of all 

2 wattages within an equipment class. 

3 So, despite avoiding such a binned 

4 approach, DOE still found that there was reason 

5 to separate equipment classes by wattage range. 

6 In addition to the ballast efficiency increasing 

7 with wattage, the nature of this correlation 

8 also changes with wattage. Additionally, EISA 

9 resulted in covered wattages, shifting the more 

10 efficient technology while wattages outside of 

11 EISA did not. 

12 When looking at consumer utility, 

13 certain applications require more light than 

14 others. So wattage often varies by application 

15 and, thus, directly affects the utility. 

16 To reflect all of these trends, DOE 

17 proposes to separate equipment classes by 

18 wattage range. Instead of a constant 

19 requirement, however, DOE establishes different 

20 efficiency equations within each wattage range. 

21 The advantage to using equations within wattage 

22 ranges, instead of a single equation that spans 
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1 all wattages, is both to capture the previously 

2 mentioned change in the wattage-efficiency 

3 relationship and to ensure that the price 

4 analysis can reflect the unique cost-efficiency 

5 relationships of different wattage ranges. 

6 So based on separating equipment 

7 classes on input voltage, indoor versus outdoor 

8 designation and rated lamp wattage, DOE proposes 

9 these 20 equipment classes that you see on the 

10 table. 

11 As explained on the previous slide, 

12 the wattage ranges shown here reflect the 

13 different relationships between wattage, 

14 efficiency, and cost, as well as the effects that 

15 EISA has on the market. 

16 It is important to note that the 

17 150-watt fixtures previously exempted by EISA, 

18 so those that were rated for use in wet locations 

19 and in ambient temperatures above 50 degrees 

20 Celsius, are included in the 100 to 150-watt 

21 range, while 150-watt fixtures subject to EISA 

22 continue to be included in the 150 to 250-watt 
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1 range. This was done because the EISA exemption 

2 has led to a difference in the commercially 

3 available efficiencies for the ballasts that are 

4 exempted or not exempted. The exempted 

5 ballasts have a range of efficiencies similar to 

6 wattages below 150 while those not exempt have 

7 efficiencies more similar to ballasts greater 

8 than 150. 

9 DOE seeks comment on the 

10 appropriateness of the equipment classes 

11 proposed in this NOPR. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug? 

13 MR. YATES: Yes. Doug Yates, Musco 

14 Lighting. As I stated in the earlier comments, 

15 the only exception we take is grouping the large 

16 class of 500 to 2,000-watt. And as we get 

17 further into the presentation, I'll be able to 

18 go into more specifics. But I believe, as I've 

19 looked at it, all the analysis was based around 

20 1,000-watt. And we think there are significant 

21 differences in comparing the markets where the 

22 1,500-watt is used compared to the 1,000-watt. 
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1 We don't even think those classes can be grouped 

2 together. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

5 Chris? 

6 MR. HOLSTEIN: This is Chris with 

7 Universal Lighting. I would just make two 

8 points before I start. I know we have some 

9 fellows here who are electrical engineers from 

10 other companies, Tom or Chuck. They could help 

11 me out if need be. 

12 But one thing I would like to point 

13 out is your own inconsistency in your data. You 

14 say that as lamp prices go up, efficiency goes 

15 up. But, yet, you have the highest efficiency 

16 on 150 watts. So that's kind of inconsistent 

17 with what you stated. 

18 The other piece on the 150 as being 

19 exempted still, I'm just going to read what my 

20 electrical engineers have given me. So it says 

21 that the -- and we actually have some charts that 

22 we are going to turn in. Sorry I don't have 
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1 these to present. But it basically says the 

2 charts really show lamps current squared versus 

3 lamp wattage. The ballast losses are 

4 correlated with lamp current squared. Other 

5 factors also affect ballast losses, but there is 

6 a strong correlation between the I squared R 

7 losses. 

8 Now, the charts show that it's clear 

9 that 150-watt ballast losses follow the trend 

10 and has significantly higher losses than ballast 

11 at the medium wattage range, 175 to 500. This 

12 explains the fact that since 2007, the industry 

13 has not been able to come up with 150-watt metal 

14 halide fixture with a magnetic ballast that is 

15 88 percent efficient. 

16 And this is a ULT comment. ULT 

17 believes that the 150 watts should be treated as 

18 a separate wattage bin and continue with 

19 existing exemption. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

21 Does anybody wish to comment? 

22 Chacko? 
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1 MR. OOMMEN: Yes. I have one 

2 comment. They were talking about the 

3 efficiency as the lamp wattage exists throughout 

4 the life of the lamp. But basically all the 

5 measurements for us, we are taking a nominal 

6 voltage and right out of the, you know, like 

7 100-hour lamps, actually. So yes, efficiency 

8 will grow as the lamp basis, but that is not how 

9 it is measured for efficiency numbers. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Yes, 

11 Joanna? 

12 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. We find 

13 it a little bit odd that certain 150-watt 

14 fixtures would be in one equipment class and 

15 others would be in another. I think we would 

16 encourage DOE to consider putting all 150-watt 

17 fixtures in the 100 to 150-watt wattage bin. 

18 And that would seem to be consistent with how the 

19 bins are kind of laid out in general. 

20 MR. CHESTER: All right. I can 

21 expand a little bit on why those are separated. 

22 So the 150-watt fixtures that were subject to 
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1 EISA obviously have the existing standard from 

2 the federal standards that they have to meet. 

3 So DOE can't consider a standard that is below 

4 that 88 percent, but for the 150-watt fixtures 

5 that were wet-rated and higher ambient 

6 temperatures, we found that there were 

7 efficiencies, almost representative 

8 efficiencies, to consider below that EISA 

9 standard just because they weren't previously 

10 regulated. So in this way, we are able to kind 

11 of consider the existing standards for them 

12 separately. 

13 MS. MAUER: I guess regarding your 

14 first point, -- and maybe I need to go look 

15 back -- the standard that is proposed for the 100 

16 to 150-watt class for 150-watt fixtures, it 

17 would be at least 88 percent. Is that right? 

18 MR. CHESTER: Right, yes. The one 

19 that we ended up proposing is above there, but 

20 the EL1 and EL2 are below that point. 

21 MS. MAUER: Out of 150 watts? 

22 MR. CHESTER: For that, for the 
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1 exempt 150-watt fixtures. 

2 MS. MAUER: Just to clarify, right, 

3 because the standard varies as a function of 

4 wattage, the importance is what the standard 

5 level is at 150 watts, right, if we're talking 

6 about how it compares to the current standard? 

7 MR. CHESTER: Right. 

8 MS. MAUER: And you're saying 

9 there are levels that at 150 watts, the level 

10 analyzed is below 88 percent? 

11 MR. CHESTER: For the ones that 

12 aren't included in EISA. 

13 MS. MAUER: Right. Okay. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman? 

15 MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest 

16 Power Council. I'm still not clear why that 

17 needs to be a separate class. If the original 

18 intent was to avoid the backsliding provisions, 

19 then they were exempt to begin with. So there's 

20 no potential for backsliding. So including 

21 them in another class, which is the exterior and 

22 high-temperature class, doesn't throw them in 
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1 with the ones that were already covered. So why 

2 was there a necessity to split them out? 

3 Because they are already in another class. It 

4 wasn't regulated. 

5 MR. CHESTER: This is keeping them 

6 in the separate class. 

7 MR. ECKMAN: They were a separate 

8 class. They are exempt. 

9 MR. CHESTER: Yes. 

10 MR. ECKMAN: So bringing them in, 

11 it's not clear why they would have to fall in 2 

12 different classes given they were 150. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Matthew? 

14 MR. WALKER: This is Matthew Walker 

15 from Navigant. We can certainly take your 

16 feedback into account and consider combining. 

17 I can try to say it in another way. 

18 Some 150-watt fixtures were covered by EISA, 

19 ones that did not meet the exemption criteria. 

20 That category may have been rather small in terms 

21 of shipments, but the regulation in this 

22 proposal was designed to treat the fixtures that 
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1 were previously not exempted by EISA a certain 

2 way and then fixtures that were exempted by EISA 

3 a different way. 

4 MR. ECKMAN: Since you classified 

5 them separately in different classes anyway, I 

6 don't see that the backsliding provision would 

7 be of concern. 

8 MR. WALKER: Okay. We'll take that 

9 into account. Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that 

11 clarification. 

12 Alex? 

13 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

14 Boesenberg from NEMA. I want to raise a 

15 separate point to expand on Mr. Yates' comments. 

16 The current NEMA position I'll call it since my 

17 comments aren't final is that I have at this time 

18 agreement among my membership that for wattages 

19 1,000 watts and above, we believe they should not 

20 be covered by the rule because they in our 

21 observation are specialty applications, which, 

22 more often than not, exhibit very low operating 
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1 hours and so not a lot of efficiency gains, well, 

2 not a lot of energy saved. We might drastically 

3 or attempt to drastically increase the 

4 efficiency, but if they are only running an hour 

5 or two a day a couple of days a week, there is 

6 really not much savings to justify the time and 

7 expense of addressing that redesign. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe? 

9 MR. HOWLEY: Just to add to what 

10 Alex is saying. Joe Howley with GE. The rule 

11 is supposed to cover lamps used in general 

12 lighting applications. The highest wattage 

13 that a lamp would be used in a general lighting 

14 application as defined by industry would be 

15 1,000 watts. We would not define any lamp over 

16 1,000 watts to be used in a general lighting 

17 application. We think it's a misapplication in 

18 terms of trying to regulate products over 1,000 

19 watts. 

20 And attempting to say they are 

21 general lighting, we would strongly disagree 

22 with saying anything over 1,000 watts is used in 
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1 a general lighting application. These are all 

2 specialty lighting, sports lighting types of 

3 applications. General lighting is a lamp that 

4 is used every night, used, you know, some amount 

5 of hours for general lighting purposes. That is 

6 not sports lighting. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

8 Louis? 

9 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 

10 I had a question for something that Chris with 

11 Universal Lighting had talked about earlier. 

12 You were talking about the difference between 

13 150 and 175-watt fixtures and that the 

14 efficiency would be less in the 150. Is that 

15 because the power consumed was I squared R, which 

16 is the current times the resistance? And so I 

17 am assuming the 150, there is a higher current 

18 because it a lower voltage. Is that why there 

19 is more, the efficiency is different than the 

20 efficiency required? 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko? 

22 MR. OOMMEN: Yes. I can answer 
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1 that question. Chacko from Philips. Like I 

2 said before, the 175, the lamp voltage is 130 

3 volts. And the lamp current is like about 1.2 

4 amps. And for the 150, the lamp current is 1.8 

5 amps. And the lamp voltage is fully 85 volts. 

6 So that's quite a bit of I squared loss. Even 

7 if you make the same size of ballast, the 150 will 

8 be much higher losses. 

9 MR. STARR: Why is the current draw 

10 different between those two? Is that a design 

11 or is that -- 

12 MR. OOMMEN: Yes. It's a lamp 

13 design. 

14 MR. STARR: Okay. 

15 MR. OOMMEN: The lamp is designed 

16 for low voltage. 

17 MR. STARR: So a smaller ballast 

18 gets you more current? Is that what is going on 

19 or -- 

20 MR. OOMMEN: Well, I mean, it's not 

21 a smaller ballast. Even if you make the same 

22 size of ballast, if you make a 175 ballast one 
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1 size and the 150-watt the same size, you are 

2 going to have higher losses because of the I 

3 square ballast losses because you need more 

4 impedance to control the lamp current. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug? 

6 MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco 

7 Lighting. Just to comment further on the NEMA 

8 position and when the gentleman from GE spoke, 

9 we agree with that as well from Musco's 

10 perspective. I spoke earlier to the 1,500 watts 

11 in sports lighting, but we also agree that 

12 anything above 1,000-watt is a specialty 

13 application. It is not general lighting. 

14 Thank you. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And the 

16 Department of Energy will look forward to 

17 receiving NEMA's written comments, in which they 

18 will fully elucidate where they are. 

19 Have we covered this one? We are 

20 moving on, I think. Yes? Okay. 

21 MR. CHESTER: Okay. So next, for 

22 the screening analysis, DOE looks at the 
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1 technology options on the basis of four 

2 criteria: technological feasibility; 

3 practicability to manufacture, install, and 

4 service; adverse impacts on product utility or 

5 availability to customers; and adverse impacts 

6 to health and safety. The only technology 

7 option that DOE screened out was creating the 

8 core inductor of the ballast from laminated 

9 sheets of amorphous steel. 

10 Amorphous steel was screened out 

11 because it adds a high level of complexity, 

12 requires additional specialized machinery and 

13 equipment, and increases the size and weight of 

14 the ballasts beyond the existing ballast 

15 footprint. These factors made amorphous steel 

16 failed the practicability to manufacture, 

17 install, and service criterion. The remaining 

18 technology options were not screened out and are 

19 shown as design options on the table in this 

20 slide. As design options, DOE considers these 

21 in the NOPR analysis to be the viable means of 

22 improving ballast efficiency. 
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1 DOE seeks comment on the 

2 appropriateness of the design options selected 

3 by the screening analysis of this NOPR. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko? 

5 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from 

6 Philips. I can provide you some overview about 

7 the use of hybrid materials for releasing the 

8 losses. 

9 Something to consider is, just to 

10 give you an example, with the current technology 

11 that we have, even if you were to use M6, that's 

12 the best grade material in the industry right now 

13 for steel, magnetic steel, practical way of 

14 doing it. And what happens is if the losses are, 

15 say, a 0.6 watts per pound, but once you process 

16 that into a fully assembled unit, the losses on 

17 that same steel go up to more than 100 percent. 

18 So the energy saved is completely lost during the 

19 manufacturing process. So that option is not at 

20 all viable for our industry. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: I somehow lost 

22 the -- you lost me there. Will you restate what 
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1 you just said? 

2 MR. OOMMEN: Okay. Say, for 

3 instance, the losses -- 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: I was looking at 

5 losses. Then others would as well. Go ahead. 

6 MR. OOMMEN: Yes. What happens is 

7 when you weld high-grade, high-silicon steel, 

8 when you distract the magnetic properties, even 

9 externally, the losses of that whole structure 

10 go up. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

12 MR. OOMMEN: Yes. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. I got 

14 it. 

15 Steve Rosenstock? 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

17 Just a quick question looking at this table. 

18 I'm just kind of curious how an electronic 

19 ballast is going to improve the efficiency of a 

20 magnetic ballast. 

21 MR. CHESTER: That design option is 

22 essentially saying you are going to be replacing 
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1 the magnetic ballast with an electronic one, 

2 which we found to have higher efficiency. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: But, again, I 

4 know what you're saying, but, you know, really, 

5 that is not an option to improving the efficiency 

6 of a magnetic ballast. 

7 MR. CHESTER: Okay. Well, we'll 

8 certainly take -- 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: That's not a design 

10 sub-element. 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Exactly. Thank 

12 you. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay. 

14 MR. CHESTER: Okay. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we've got 

16 that. Final comments on this screening 

17 analysis slide? 

18 (No response.) 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to suggest 

20 we take a break. It's now 5 minutes until 11:00. 

21 How many of you are not familiar with this 

22 building? 
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1 (Whereupon, there was a show of 

2 hands.) 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Just a few. It's 

4 pretty simple. You must wear this badge. And 

5 we're going to break for 15 minutes, which means 

6 we'll resume at 10 minutes after 11:00. 

7 We're making really good progress. 

8 However, we're slated to go until at least, say, 

9 3:00 o'clock today. So we're likely when we 

10 return from break to work until, say, 12:30 or 

11 so before we break for lunch. So if you need a 

12 piece of fruit or a doughnut or something, fine, 

13 but the coffee shop is on the ground floor 

14 directly beneath us and across the hall. Go 

15 quickly because sometimes it takes them a while 

16 to service everyone. And we'll resume at 10 

17 minutes after 11:00. Good start on the day. 

18 See you back here. Restrooms on both ends of the 

19 hall. 

20 (Whereupon, the foregoing matter 

21 went off the record at 10:54 a.m. and went back 

22 on the record at 11:11 a.m.) 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume. We 

2 made really good progress this morning and I 

3 really appreciate the quality and 

4 straightforwardness of the comments. 

5 Let's keep on with that and we're 

6 going to pick up where we left off, which I 

7 believe is Slide 27. And we're going to hear 

8 from Matthew Walker. 

9 MR. WALKER: All right. So, good 

10 morning, everyone. My name is Matthew Walker. 

11 I`m with Navigant. 

12 I'll be presenting the engineering 

13 analysis which establishes efficiency levels 

14 and overall system energy use at those levels, 

15 as well as determining the equipment prices for 

16 each efficiency level. 

17 This work sets the framework then 

18 for analyzing the impacts on customers, 

19 manufacturers and the nation as a whole and later 

20 downstream analyses that you can see in this flow 

21 chart. 

22 Okay. So, this slide gives an 
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1 overview of the methodology. DOE begins by 

2 choosing equipment classes to be directly 

3 analyzed, which it calls "representative 

4 equipment classes." 

5 Next, DOE defines characteristics 

6 of baseline ballasts in each equipment class. 

7 This is followed by identifying more efficacious 

8 substitutes for each equipment class, and then 

9 developing efficiency levels that span from 

10 baseline to maximum technologically feasible. 

11 After developing the efficiency 

12 levels, DOE generates the manufacturer 

13 production cost, or MPC, for ballasts and 

14 fixtures which it then marks up to a manufacturer 

15 selling price using a markup multiplier.

16 And finally, DOE scales the results to the 

17 equipment classes that were not analyzed 

18 directly. 

19 So, as Matt described a few minutes 

20 ago, DOE is considering standards for 20 

21 equipment classes. And from this list, DOE 

22 focuses the analytical efforts on the same 
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1 classes on the table on this slide. 

2 You can see DOE did not analyze the 

3 equipment classes tested at 480 volts directly 

4 due to their low shipment volumes. Instead 

5 we're looking at the equipment classes tested at 

6 the 120 and 277 levels. So, you can see those are 

7 the remaining 10 equipment classes that cover 

8 the full range of wattages, as well as both 

9 indoor and outdoor designations. 

10 So, next, DOE selects baseline 

11 units. Each representative equipment class is 

12 assigned a representative wattage. Typically, 

13 the most common wattages within each equipment 

14 class. Then to each of these representative 

15 wattages, DOE selects a baseline model which 

16 represents them as common, least efficient 

17 ballasts. 

18 The baseline model will just meet 

19 energy conservation standards when applicable. 

20 So, for example, the baseline unit at 250 watts 

21 would be 88 percent to just meet the EISA 2007 

22 requirements. The purpose of the baseline is to 
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1 serve as a reference point for analyzing the 

2 impacts of transitions to more efficient 

3 standard levels in the life-cycle cost analysis. 

4 So, generally, only one baseline is 

5 selected. But when a significant portion of the 

6 market has already adapted a more efficient 

7 fixture or ballast, DOE analyzes two baselines 

8 for a more representative set of LCC results. 

9 We'll see an example of that on the next slide. 

10 So, here we see that for each of the 

11 wattage bins, the representative wattages of 70, 

12 150, 250, 400 and 1,000 watts were selected. 

13 Each of these representative 

14 wattages has low-grade magnetic pulse-start 

15 ballasts selected as the baseline with the 

16 exception of the thousand-watt grouping which 

17 uses a probe-start magnetic ballast as a 

18 baseline. 

19 Though, at 70 watts you can see that 

20 DOE has also selected an electronic pulse-start 

21 ballast as a baseline based on a significant 

22 portion of the market having already adopted the 
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1 electronic system. 

2 And lastly, it's important to note 

3 that each of these baseline ballasts represents 

4 both the indoor and outdoor representative 

5 equipment classes, because indoor and outdoor 

6 designation the NOPR analysis has determined it 

7 only affects equipment price and not ballast 

8 efficiency, the same baseline efficiencies that 

9 are used for both the indoor and outdoor classes. 

10 Here in Issue 22, DOE is seeking 

11 comment on the addition of the electronic 

12 70-watt baseline ballast. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm Steve 

15 Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute. For 

16 those 70-watt fixtures, what percentage of the 

17 marketplace based on your surveys were 

18 electronic pulse-starts? 

19 MR. WALKER: When you look at the 

20 indoor grouping, the assessment was that it was 

21 greater than 25 percent. 

22 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Doug. 

2 MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco 

3 Lighting. 

4 I know that it's specific to Issue 

5 22, but if there's a question we have to what's 

6 presented, can we ask it now? 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Please. 

8 MR. YATES: I guess going back to your 

9 comment that you left out 480-volt because of low 

10 shipment volume, I guess that would further, I 

11 think, support our position that at least 

12 1500-watt should not be considered in this in 

13 that class. Because based upon our experience at 

14 Musco Lighting, a large majority greater than 50 

15 percent would be 480 volt for 1500 watts. So, to 

16 leave that out, I guess, again, just to my 

17 opinion supports that it just doesn't belong 

18 1500 watt. 

19 MR. WALKER: Okay. 

20 MR. YATES: And then the second 

21 question I would have is as I understand the 

22 standard, it's suggesting that we move towards 
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1 pulse-start in all the classes, including the 

2 500 to 2,000 watt? 

3 I guess I'm trying to understand why 

4 then was the probe-start used as the baseline. 

5 MR. WALKER: Yes, we'll get into that 

6 development in a couple of slides. 

7 MR. YATES: All right. Thank you. 

8 MR. WALKER: But the baseline is 

9 meant to represent the product that's currently 

10 on the market. 

11 MR. YATES: Okay. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko. 

13 MR. OOMMEN: Yes, Chacko from 

14 Philips. I want to make a couple of comments. 

15 For right now, there are no electronic ballasts 

16 of 480 for any power level, okay. And the second 

17 comment is as far as probe and pulse, there are 

18 no different efficiency differences for either 

19 probe or pulse when you reach about a thousand 

20 in a bulb. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

22 Did you ask the comment on Chacko's 
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1 question? 

2 MR. WALKER: We did. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Okay. 

4 Comments on Issue 22? 

5 Okay, we're moving on. 

6 MR. WALKER: Okay. So, next, DOE 

7 then begins to select fixtures with more 

8 efficient ballasts as replacements for the 

9 baseline model. 

10 These more efficient substitutes 

11 are selected by analyzing independent test data 

12 of commercially available ballasts, and by 

13 estimating the efficiency increase to be gained 

14 through the use of the design options. 

15 So, looking at the efficiency 

16 levels, like I was saying, DOE uses the design 

17 options and max tech efficiencies for each 

18 equipment class to develop efficiency levels or 

19 ELs. These ELs are based on catalog data, 

20 independent test data and manufacture input. 

21 After plotting ballast efficiency 

22 versus rated lamp wattage for a variety of 
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1 products, DOE performed a regression analysis to 

2 define relationships between rated lamp wattage 

3 and ballast efficiency. 

4 Certain wattage categories and 

5 ballast types were best represented - or best 

6 modeled with different equation types. And 

7 we'll see those a little bit on the next slide. 

8 Okay. So, the three equation types 

9 included in the NOPR include power-law equations 

10 shown on top with the green, increasing linear 

11 equations in the middle with yellow, and a 

12 constant flat equation at the bottom in blue. 

13 And so, all three of these forms are found in the 

14 ELs that we'll see in the next slide. 

15 So, as I just mentioned before, the 

16 efficiency levels, the efficiency level 

17 equations are identical for indoor and outdoor 

18 fixtures because of the determination that the 

19 efficiency is the same. 

20 So, this graph shows EL1 through EL4 

21 for four of the wattage ranges. There's 50 to 

22 100, 100 to 150, 150 to 250, and 250 to 500-watt 
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1 groupings. 

2 For the two lowest wattage ranges, 

3 DOE used its own test data as well as efficiency 

4 trends and catalog data to generate separate 

5 power-law best fits for the magnetic ballasts in 

6 EL1 and EL2, and the electronic ballasts in EL3 

7 and EL4. 

8 Then moving to higher wattages 

9 because EISA 2007 covered the wattage range from 

10 150 to 500, as you can see on this slide with the 

11 dotted line, although it looks a little bit more 

12 solid on the screen here, DOE can only evaluate 

13 efficiencies equal to or above that existing 

14 standard. 

15 So, based on its analysis, DOE 

16 determined that 88 percent was at or above max 

17 tech for the magnetic 150 watt to 200-watt 

18 ballasts. 

19 Therefore, the EL1 and EL2 in that 

20 range was set at 88 percent. You can see that 

21 on the diagram. 

22 Then for EL3 and EL4 which are 
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1 generally represented by electronic ballasts, 

2 the power-law function from the 50 to 150-watt 

3 range was simply extended. It's the same 

4 relationship actually used from 50 all the way 

5 to 500 watts. 

6 So, then finally with the 250 to 

7 500-watt range, DOE found that the magnetic 

8 representative units at EL1 and EL2 have the same 

9 efficiency. So, DOE created a flat efficiency 

10 relationship for the magnetic ballast and that 

11 wattage number is represented by EL1 and EL2. 

12 And, like I said, EL3 and 4 again 

13 follow that same power-law function fit 

14 representing electronic ballasts. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 

16 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 

17 NEEA. 

18 The square in the chart there where 

19 you have the 155 and it looks like it's constant 

20 out to 200, was that - the intent of that to kind 

21 of get it seemed like maybe people were moving 

22 from the 175 watt to the 150 exemption, was that 
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1 to deal with that, or is there - maybe you can 

2 explain why that particular - 

3 MR. WALKER: The spot is at 88 

4 percent. 

5 MR. STARR: Yes. 

6 MR. WALKER: I can say that real 

7 briefly it's not as much about the transition 

8 between wattages, but rather the maximum 

9 technologically feasible level that magnetic 

10 ballasts can reach which is even - 88 percent is 

11 even beyond max tech at 150, but EISA 2007 had 

12 already established an 88 percent level. 

13 It's really just the existing 

14 standard that we're dealing with right there. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

16 MR. HOWLEY: At EISA law, the - well, 

17 the outcome of that was to push everyone from the 

18 175 watt to the 150-watt exemption, which saved, 

19 you know, 25 watts per fixture across all those 

20 fixtures. 

21 So, it saved energy, but not in the 

22 way you might expect. It wasn't done just by 
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1 meeting an efficiency standard. It was by 

2 making it very difficult to meet it at 175 and 

3 possible at 150 and then granting an exemption 

4 at 150. 

5 So, that's why you have this weird 

6 kind of cutout here and why this analysis is, you 

7 know, it doesn't look - when you try to bring the 

8 150 in now based on the logic from 2007, it 

9 doesn't make sense. That's why it's so far high 

10 out of whack and, like you said, above max tech 

11 and why we - we view that as a mistake the way 

12 that it's analyzed right now. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Joe. Were 

14 you done presenting this graph? 

15 MR. WALKER: I'm finished with this 

16 slide. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions 

18 or comments on this before we move on? Yes, 

19 Chris. 

20 MR. HOLSTEIN: Two things. Chris 

21 with Universal. 

22 Just as a for whoever is the 
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1 webmaster, I got a text from an associate who is 

2 on the webcast and said they tried to raise their 

3 hand to make a comment and it didn't go through, 

4 just as a point not to address now, but just to 

5 watch it. 

6 It was Ed Klonowski was his name, but 

7 back to the points - 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that. 

9 MR. HOLSTEIN: No problem. Just in 

10 comment to the - what we see here on this 50 to 

11 500-watt I'm just going to kind of read what I 

12 have written. And I'll provide more detail in 

13 my written comments. 

14 I don't want to go through all of it 

15 today, but I'll just say the proposed efficiency 

16 levels are too high. May not be practically 

17 achievable for magnetic ballasts in the lower 

18 wattage ranges. 

19 For example, achieving 91 percent 

20 efficiency for 250-watt ballasts to require 

21 alongside with the usage of the highest possible 

22 grade materials, substantial changes in the 
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1 ballast dimensions. 

2 And then I'm going to provide some 

3 recommendations as well, but I won't go through 

4 those in this meeting. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. I 

6 thought I saw someone else. Steve Rosenstock? 

7 No, you've got it? Okay. 

8 Yes, please, your name for the 

9 record. 

10 MR. GREEN: Yes, John Green from 

11 Eaton Cooper Lighting. 

12 Since this is a fixture rulemaking, 

13 can I ask what fixtures were used to evaluate the 

14 baseline in the higher efficiency ballasts for 

15 this comparison? 

16 MR. WALKER: Sure. So, yes, you 

17 mentioned this is a fixture rulemaking. 

18 However, the portion of the fixture being 

19 regulated is the ballast. So, I'm just trying 

20 to think of the best way to talk about this. 

21 We can maybe talk about the 250-watt 

22 as an example. So, a 250-watt magnetic ballast 
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1 that was at 88 percent was tested. So, we have 

2 a commercially available ballast that sits at 

3 the baseline for 250 watts. 

4 MR. GREEN: No, my point is when you 

5 did the comparison between the baseline and 

6 higher efficiency ballasts, did they actually 

7 fit in the fixture that was being analyzed? 

8 MR. WALKER: Sure. And then we do 

9 have a chart that kind of depicts this, but the 

10 - you're correct. 

11 So, EL1 and EL2 say at the 250 or 

12 400-watt levels, those are model ballasts. 

13 Those ballasts are not currently being sold. 

14 So, by definition, those model ballasts were not 

15 placed in a fixture because they don't - they're 

16 not currently being produced. 

17 That information - wait a minute. 

18 I'll say that information came from our 

19 manufacture interview process for determining 

20 the steel types, dimensions, those sorts of 

21 things that would approximate a particular 

22 efficiency. And then given those inputs, a cost 
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1 was estimated. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

3 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with Universal. 

4 Well, if the ballasts don't exist 

5 anywhere, then how do we know if they're going 

6 to fit in the fixture or not? 

7 I mean, if we just made them up, I 

8 mean, I can put air in a fixture, but we're 

9 talking about something that's real here, right? 

10 MR. WALKER: You raise a good point. 

11 The - I guess all I can say is that through this 

12 data collection process the intent was to have 

13 collected data that represented a more efficient 

14 ballast that had the same footprint. 

15 Now, it's very clear to me from this 

16 meeting that there's a lot of disagreement over 

17 that statement and I think DOE can take that sort 

18 of input into account moving forward. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

20 MR. HOLSTEIN: Once again Chris with 

21 ULT. 

22 I would - if you would like to come 
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1 and personally sit with one of our engineers, I'm 

2 sure they can walk you through this process and 

3 what would actually be required to make this 

4 work. Maybe that would provide some insight. 

5 MR. WALKER: That actually could be 

6 something that we can take you up on. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel. 

8 MR. YOUNG: So, just a point of 

9 clarification. I don't think that DOE is 

10 suggesting that the top two lines for EL3 and EL4 

11 could be met using magnetic ballasts. Those are 

12 strictly talking about electronic ballasts. 

13 So, really, any type of, you know, 

14 again, increase in size for the magnetics would 

15 be limited to the EL1 and EL2 levels. 

16 So, at the 70-watt range it looks 

17 like maybe 78 percent versus 82 percent for the 

18 highest magnetic level; is that correct? 

19 MR. WALKER: You're correct, Daniel. 

20 EL1 and EL2 are meant to be represented by 

21 magnetic ballasts. Reaching efficiencies of 

22 EL3 and 4 we anticipated electronic ballasts 
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1 being used. 

2 MR. YOUNG: Right. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: John. 

4 MR. GREEN: Yes, John Green from 

5 Eaton Cooper Lighting. Same question. 

6 Do the electronic ballasts actually 

7 fit and function in those same fixtures as that 

8 - was that tested in doing the evaluation between 

9 the base level and the higher efficiency? 

10 I think the answer is probably no, 

11 but I just wanted to understand that. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

13 MR. HOLSTEIN: Just in tandem with 

14 what John said - Chris with Universal - we can't 

15 make the assumption that just because - because 

16 the electronic HID ballast - let's take a 150 

17 design for a track fixture whose design is a very 

18 small ballast. You may have the assumption we 

19 can just throw it inside of a fixture. 

20 What we have to remember is, is that 

21 thing has to be heat-synched to pull heat out of 

22 those electronic components. So, it requires a 
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1 tight fit. 

2 Almost all of the eHID applications 

3 those products are sold into are friction fit, 

4 which means they basically slide directly into 

5 the housing of the ballast. 

6 So, the assumption that just because 

7 that ballast, the indoor version, because we're 

8 talking about how these things relate and making 

9 sure we're clear, the way that's designed today 

10 you can't just take that and put a bracket and 

11 think it's going to work. 

12 I mean, there has - that will be a 

13 complete - just to be clear, a complete redesign 

14 of those products as well. 

15 It will increase their size and it 

16 will also affect the fixtures, because the 

17 fixture manufacturers will have designed the 

18 fixtures in such a way that we can align the hot 

19 spots of those ballasts to a heat-synching part 

20 of that fixture to remove heat out of that 

21 ballast. 

22 So, it's more than - I just want to 
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1 be clear when we look at this chart that if the 

2 assumption is that the magnetic will go away, we 

3 can easily put electronic in there, it's not - 

4 it's not - that thought process isn't going to 

5 work. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, 

7 Chris. 

8 Alex, go ahead. 

9 MR. WALKER: I can kind of respond to 

10 that. The analysis does incorporate a higher 

11 both purchase cost for the 

12 electronically-ballasted fixture, as well as 

13 what we call a manufacturer conversion cost for 

14 developing those new fixtures. 

15 Now, we can certainly talk about 

16 those particular numbers and whether or not you 

17 think they're accurate. 

18 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris again with ULT. 

19 Do you believe then at the higher 

20 purchase price at the customer level they'll be 

21 willing to make that switch, or I think that what 

22 you're missing out on is they won't make the 
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1 switch and they're going to put a ballast - a 

2 magnetic ballast in that's going to draw more 

3 energy and you're going to lose what you're 

4 trying to do, because they're not going to pay 

5 more for - what the electronic version is going 

6 to cost and what the manufacturers have to do, 

7 they're not going to do that. They're going to 

8 put the higher wattage magnetic ballast in 

9 there. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

11 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

12 NEMA. 

13 I want to - we already mentioned it 

14 in our presentation, and Chris and John also 

15 mentioned it, but - and I'll also bring it up at 

16 the very end under the regulatory impact 

17 analysis comment, but I want to expand on what 

18 was just said about compatibility. 

19 One of industry's distinct concerns 

20 regarding compatibility is not only metal 

21 halide, but high-intensity discharge products 

22 in general. 
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1 There are three rulemakings going on 

2 right now that can affect the products we're 

3 talking about today, because there's also an HID 

4 lamps rulemaking and an HID lamps test procedure 

5 rulemaking. 

6 And I know because we've been 

7 yelling about it, I know the Department is 

8 attempting, in fairness, attempting to 

9 coordinate between those rules. 

10 And it's not that you aren't doing 

11 everything you can, but to go back to our slides, 

12 the absence of the finished test procedures in 

13 ANSI, the compatibility standards, means that no 

14 matter how hard we attempt to coordinate the 

15 rules from a compatibility standpoint with some 

16 of these needed standards lacking, we can't 

17 quite get there. And that's where a lot of the 

18 angst you're hearing is coming from. 

19 Right now manufacturers handle it. 

20 People call them and ask them what's the right 

21 one to use, and we do it. We don't have that 

22 refined to something we can put in a standard and 
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1 put a cover page on and deliver so that everyone 

2 can refer to it. 

3 Normally, the Department would 

4 simply reference ANSI 82 point whatever it will 

5 end up being, and this whole discussion doesn't 

6 have to take place. 

7 But we're having to have the 

8 discussion and constantly raise these points and 

9 points of worry and concern of, okay, you found 

10 a ballast that achieves everything you want. 

11 Did you make sure it fits? 

12 And there's lots of permutations of 

13 that condition. Does it work? Does it 

14 function? Can you buy it or whatever? And 

15 that's why you keep hearing this. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Is it Mark? 

17 MR. DUFFY: Yes. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Please. 

19 MR. DUFFY: Yes, this is Mark Duffy 

20 of GE. 

21 I appreciate Alex's comments, but I 

22 wanted to go back to the simple discussion and 
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1 the question about this modeling that was done 

2 for the efficiency levels. 

3 Just for the record, did the model 

4 that you use consider the thermal effects and the 

5 design into the luminaire, or did it simply focus 

6 on the ballast modeling itself with an 

7 assumption of the boundary conditions that would 

8 be present in a fictitious luminaire? 

9 MR. WALKER: I guess, Mark, I can say 

10 it would be closer to the latter and we would be, 

11 again, as always, open to information that would 

12 change that decision. 

13 MR. DUFFY: Okay. Thank you. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca. 

15 MS. RAINER: And actually my question 

16 is - I'm sorry. Rebecca Rainer from Eaton 

17 Cooper. My question is for Daniel with the 

18 California investor utilities. 

19 A point that Chris made when 

20 discussing if you were going to pay a higher 

21 premium price for a, say, an 

22 electronic-ballasted fixture, your group, would 
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1 they actually pay? 

2 Because economics have to play a big 

3 role in the decision, would they actually pay 

4 that higher premium for that product, or would 

5 they go to a higher wattage which would consume 

6 more energy? 

7 MR. YOUNG: That's a good question. 

8 We'd have to see the numbers, obviously. The 

9 other thing that we might do is switch to LED, 

10 which I think a lot of people are suggesting that 

11 this is coming anyways and we should look at that 

12 anyways or focus instead on that which, you know, 

13 I do think I agree with that sentiment. 

14 And I would also suggest that should 

15 these standards result in an increase in price 

16 for metal halides, then it makes LEDs more 

17 attractive faster. And so, it could lead to a 

18 quicker market transformation towards LEDs. 

19 And if that's the case, we would 

20 suggest that DOE should consider that in their 

21 analysis and credit the rulemaking for gaining 

22 those savings. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

2 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

3 NEMA. 

4 Just bear in mind the converse of 

5 that is manufacturers invest hundreds of 

6 millions into a technology that no one wants to 

7 buy. 

8 You stated the argument in a 

9 different way than we've been stating it is we're 

10 talking about very minimal percentage gains. 

11 And in the end, we're not going to sell a lot of 

12 them. So, we won't recoup that investment. 

13 And I think I agree, and I think a 

14 lot of my members agree that the more - just as 

15 you - I was going to say the same thing. The 

16 higher you raise the price on this product, the 

17 more you convince people to just go whole hog and 

18 go for the LED because it's the new, shiny, 

19 faster one anyway. 

20 But, you know, we've presented our 

21 sales graph up there, which makes it of high 

22 concern that you will recoup the investment to 
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1 increase the efficiencies at all. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

3 MR. HOWLEY: The other kind of 

4 counter to that is that if you are going to 

5 project that - right now the projectors project 

6 an energy savings within metal halide fixtures 

7 - this is a metal halide fixture rulemaking. 

8 They're projecting if we increase 

9 the efficiency of these fixtures, this much 

10 energy will be saved over the next 30 years from 

11 the metal halide fixture category. 

12 If indeed that category shrivels up 

13 much faster, then those savings are illusionary. 

14 You're not going to get all those 

15 savings over 30 years if, indeed, the category 

16 fades away much faster. 

17 Because right now they have the 

18 category staying fairly robust for 30 more years 

19 and only back to something like 2006 levels by 

20 2042. 

21 So, all those savings aren't there, 

22 is what I'm saying. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike. 

2 MR. STEVENS: Yes, I agree we are 

3 rapidly moving towards the LED - I'm Mike 

4 Stevens, Georgia Power. I'm sorry. 

5 We are also rapidly moving towards 

6 LED as the, you know, converting metal halide or 

7 changing out metal halide fixtures. 

8 One of the big concerns we have is 

9 when you look at those fixtures metal halide, 

10 they're not ready in LED. They're just not 

11 meeting IES standards yet. 

12 And, you know, I'm definitely 

13 concerned about 2015, I think it was the date, 

14 that that would be ready. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe, and then Chris, 

16 and then Steve. 

17 MR. COOK: I'm Keith. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, Keith. I 

19 apologize. Keith. 

20 MR. COOK: Keith Cook from Philips. 

21 The other way to look at your 

22 question which has been bugging me all along is 
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1 if the DOE sets the standard so high that in 

2 essence they force a convergence to LED, in 

3 essence, haven't they eliminated a product class 

4 which is, by law, not allowed? 

5 (Discussion off the record.) 

6 MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from 

7 the General Counsel's Office. 

8 That's a good question. I think it 

9 depends, obviously, which level we choose here 

10 whether or not it could be deemed eliminating a 

11 product category. 

12 And it's something we're looking at. 

13 We're taking into consideration your comments 

14 and this is just a proposed rule. 

15 So, certainly if the effect would be 

16 to eliminate all products, that would not be a 

17 standard that we would typically want to strive 

18 for. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

20 MR. HOLSTEIN: And just to comment on 

21 the LED transformation as well, I mean, from an 

22 R&D perspective that is the majority of our 
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1 research today is LED and LED technology. 

2 What challenges a company such as 

3 ourselves in a rulemaking like this is that if 

4 this passes at these levels, then, you know, 

5 essentially you have to divert from that new 

6 technology to look at the old technology to try 

7 to make it work, right, or try to come to a 

8 solution. 

9 So, if you want LED to come faster, 

10 then having a rule like this doesn't do that, 

11 right. It slows that transformation. 

12 And then I want to piggyback off of 

13 what the gentleman from Georgia Power said is 

14 that LED has come a long way in the last couple 

15 years, you know. 

16 Ten years ago we wouldn't even have 

17 had that conversation in this room. Nobody 

18 would have thought it would be where it is today 

19 and it increases at a rapid pace. 

20 But that being said, it's still not 

21 fully viable for every application that this 

22 rulemaking would try to cover, right. 
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1 So, you get the high-mast 

2 applications, extremely high-wattage where, you 

3 know, we run into technical difficulties, and 

4 I'm sure people do as well, when you start 

5 throwing, you know, 15 drivers in a fixture, you 

6 know, 60 feet in the air trying to fire off the 

7 lumens required in a high-mast application and 

8 it's a problem, right. 

9 These things are things that the 

10 industry is solving and we're solving it now. 

11 But to divert energy resources away from that, 

12 it's not going to happen any faster. And then if 

13 the rulemaking passes where it actually is at 

14 these levels and, to your point, is going to push 

15 people to LED faster, it's not, because they're 

16 not going to be there. All the applications 

17 aren't covered. 

18 I mean, it's a good idea and I'm not 

19 trying to say -- but I just want to make sure 

20 everybody is clear that we can't just say LED is 

21 going to fix all this, because it won't. It's 

22 not going to fix it right now. Not in 2015, I 
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1 should say. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

4 Yes, and I guess the other issue is at least in 

5 some of the websites that I've looked at is, you 

6 know, the LED luminous efficacy is all over the 

7 place, where some are better than metal halides 

8 and some are a lot worse. 

9 So, actually, you know, in some 

10 cases you're switching from metal halide to LED, 

11 at least today, you actually could be increasing 

12 the wattage that you're using for a certain 

13 application. Again, it's all getting better. 

14 The whole class is getting better, but you have 

15 this range of, you know, plus or minus lumens per 

16 watt where you're forcing someone to go from 

17 metal halide to LED. If the LED prices keep 

18 going down and, you know, there is no floor for 

19 LEDs, you're going to get the opposite effect in 

20 some cases. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Ari. 

22 MR. ALTMAN: Yes, this is Ari Altman 
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1 from the General Counsel's office. I just want 

2 to remind everyone here that this is a rulemaking 

3 on metal halide lamp fixtures. And as Congress 

4 has written it, it includes the ballast. So, I 

5 know, Steve, you were concerned about that. 

6 That's the way the statute is written. 

7 And this is not an LED rulemaking. 

8 We know that LEDs potentially are the future of 

9 lighting and a replacement overall for this 

10 market, but DOE does -- is given -- has been given 

11 authority to amend these standards and they are 

12 metal halide standards, not LED standards. 

13 So, you know, to the extent that 

14 everyone here can give us, you know, your best 

15 judgment on where the standard can go, if 

16 anywhere, also in your written comments when the 

17 standard can go there, that would be best. I 

18 think the discussion of LEDs is important, but 

19 we really can't -- we, in setting a standard for 

20 metal halide, can't look at, well, there's 

21 another technology that people may be using in 

22 the future. As many people have mentioned here 
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1 already, it isn't a one-for-one replacement. 

2 LED can't achieve all of the effectiveness that 

3 metal halide does today. So, we do have to work 

4 with what we have here. 

5 And so, I just kind of want to move 

6 the conversation a little bit back to metal 

7 halide. Obviously you have concerns about 

8 these curves and let's talk about which ones 

9 might work and when they might work. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, do you want 

11 to press on to the next one? 

12 MR. WALKER: Okay. So, this next 

13 slide is very similar, but covers a different 

14 wattage range, from 500 to 2,000 watts. Because 

15 electronic ballasts are not available in this 

16 wattage range, you only see two efficiency 

17 levels; one and two or -- yes, ELs 1 and 2. 

18 So, DOE proposed a linear fit above 

19 500 watts through 1,000 after examining trends 

20 within catalog data. Similarly, above 1,000 

21 watts, DOE used catalog data to conclude that a 

22 constant and flat efficiency requirement best 
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1 represented the trend. Therefore, DOE set the 

2 equation as a constant value equal to the tested 

3 value of efficiency of a thousand-watt 

4 representative ballast. 

5 So, on Issue 24, DOE is seeking 

6 comments on the appropriateness of the 

7 efficiency levels proposed, and as NOPR we've 

8 already hit on this a little bit, as well as 

9 whether or not an adjustment is needed for 

10 sources of variation not currently captured by 

11 the methodology. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve 

13 Rosenstock. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

15 EEI. So, EL2 in this case is the max tech based 

16 on the DOE research, right? 

17 MR. WALKER: Correct. 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is the max 

19 tech. And I just remember back in terms of 

20 discussion of the test procedure, the difference 

21 between EL1 and EL2 is about 0.6 percent. And 

22 if the test tolerance is plus or minus one 
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1 percent, it might be an issue. Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

3 Other comments here? We want to keep it moving 

4 on here. Louis. 

5 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 

6 NEEA. I do have -- from the NOPR, it indicates 

7 that this market share of 500 above is 15 percent 

8 of the market, yet represents 40 percent of the 

9 energy use. Can you kind of elaborate on what 

10 those typical uses are, in terms of what kind of 

11 lighting that it's, you know, such a huge -- 40 

12 percent is quite a bit. Can you maybe elaborate 

13 on what kind of the breakdown is on that? 

14 MR. WALKER: Sure, I can say a little 

15 something, and I'm sure everyone else in the room 

16 will have a lot of examples as well. 

17 I mean, as far as the large amount 

18 of energy use, that relates to the very high 

19 wattage of this category, not so much the 

20 shipment just like you noted with those numbers. 

21 And we're talking about anywhere where you need 

22 lots of light. So, very high poles. Sports 
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1 lighting is an example. Floodlighting in large 

2 spaces. Perhaps an airfield or something like 

3 that. 

4 Do we have any other -- anyone else 

5 want to say anything else here? 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. 

7 MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco 

8 Lighting. 

9 I guess the only comment I would make 

10 is, since you referenced sports lighting, while 

11 it is high wattages, the hours of usage is so 

12 small in a year which is in some of your 

13 information -- I think you used 350 hours a year 

14 -- compared to, I'll say, 1,000 watts that's in 

15 warehouses and everything that's running, you 

16 know, dusk to dawn or 24 hours a day, I don't 

17 think it's relevant to include sports lighting 

18 in that. Thank you. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Cheryl. 

20 MS. ENGLISH: I think another area of 

21 that -- sorry. Cheryl English, Acuity Brands. 

22 Another area related to this on the high wattages 
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1 are extreme applications. So, steel mills, 

2 heavy industrial car manufacturing in very, very 

3 high spaces. These are the types of 

4 applications that are extremely problematic 

5 with the transient voltage and high temperature. 

6 So, you know, the thermal management 

7 of the products, the transient management of the 

8 products, really preclude the use of these 

9 higher levels of efficiency. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, let's move 

11 on. 

12 MR. WALKER: Okay. So, this table 

13 kind of gives an overview of the ballast that 

14 typically meet the efficiency levels at each 

15 representative wattage. So, I'll just run 

16 through it real quickly. 

17 The baseline level - at the baseline 

18 level, all ballasts were commercially available 

19 magnetic ballasts. That was what was used to 

20 model that level of efficiency. 

21 Midway, the EL1 for the 150 to 

22 400-watt range -- or at 150 and 400 watts -- DOE 
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1 modeled magnetic ballasts to fill in gaps where 

2 commercially-available magnetic ballasts were 

3 not available. However, the remaining wattages 

4 at EL1 were represented by 

5 commercially-available magnetic ballasts which 

6 DOE purchased and tested. 

7 EL2 then represents the max tech 

8 level based on DOE's assessment of magnetic 

9 ballasts which were therefore -- or not 

10 therefore, but which were all modeled for 70 

11 through the 400-watt ranges. Though when you 

12 get to 1,000 watts, that EL2 ballast is 

13 commercially available. 

14 For EL3, from 70 through 400 watts, 

15 these are represented by 

16 commercially-available, low-frequency 

17 electronic ballasts. 

18 Finally, EL4 represents the max tech 

19 efficiency overall, but specifically is met by 

20 electronic ballasts which were 

21 commercially-available, low-frequency for 70, 

22 150 and 250. And like was alluded to before, the 
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1 400-watt level includes a high-frequency 

2 electronic ballast. And as we just talked about 

3 on the previous slide, the EL3 and 4 did not apply 

4 to the thousand-watt grouping. 

5 And one more thought, actually. 

6 The asterisk here mentions, and we'll get to it 

7 in I think two slides from now, that there is a 

8 design standard being proposed in this 

9 rulemaking that would require the use -- or that 

10 would ban the use of probe-start ballasts in new 

11 fixtures. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

13 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just a 

14 question. Are there commercially-available, 

15 low-frequency electronic ballasts at 400 watts? 

16 MR. WALKER: None were identified for 

17 this analysis. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. 

19 MR. COOK: (Speaking off mic.) 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think you're 

21 on, Keith. 

22 MR. COOK: I'm sorry. Keith Cook, 
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1 Philips. Matthew, could you elaborate a little 

2 bit on how these modeled magnetic ballasts were 

3 developed? 

4 MR. WALKER: Sure. So, the main 

5 inputs to the model would have been the magnetic 

6 steel grade and the wire. 

7 So through an interview process, we 

8 collected information sort of asking the 

9 question of if you increased the efficiency of 

10 an 88 percent ballast to -- I'm not going to say 

11 the number correctly, but maybe 90 percent 

12 without changing the footprint, what steel grade 

13 must you use? Does the wire change from 

14 aluminum to copper? Does the wire gauge 

15 increase? 

16 Based on the collection of that 

17 information, we were able to assign a price to 

18 that ballast based on a cost model we have that 

19 estimates the cost of purchasing that material, 

20 winding it, assembling other small components. 

21 I mean, as a high-level overview, that's the key 

22 factors. 
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1 MR. COOK: Thanks. 

2 MR. WALKER: Sure. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko. 

4 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from 

5 Philips. I just want to make one comment here. 

6 You talk about discontinuing possibly the 

7 probe-start ballast and lamp. Some of the 

8 remote applications like that goes about like 

9 say 50 feet, you need to have that technology in 

10 place, because otherwise there are no options at 

11 all. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex. 

13 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

14 NEMA. I was actually going to make the same 

15 point. And I would invite Mr. Yates of Musco or 

16 one of the other owners and operators of 

17 high-mast HID metal halide, actually, to 

18 elaborate further on that. 

19 My understanding from my members 

20 from a technical perspective is, the pulse 

21 signal attenuates over the distance of running 

22 up the mast, because they tend to put the 
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1 ballasts in the base of the pole for ease of 

2 maintenance. So, you can't get the sucker to 

3 light off reliably on a high-mast application. 

4 Probe-start alleviates that concern. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Doug. 

6 MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco, and 

7 maybe I'll reserve some of the comments until we 

8 get to Issue 26, because I think that 

9 specifically deals with it on the next page. 

10 But to that point, you'd have to add an igniter 

11 at the top of the pole. Now, you're adding costs 

12 and complexity. 

13 And so again, the point is it's not 

14 a good application. There really isn't an 

15 opportunity to go to the pulse-start. Again, 

16 I'll have further comments when we get to Issue 

17 26. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex. 

19 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

20 Boesenberg of NEMA. I would ask a general 

21 question for if -- to those here. But I think 

22 if we exempt thousand-watt and greater products 
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1 as not being general service, I think the problem 

2 goes away. Is that correct, everyone? 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 

4 MR. STARR: Well, I guess that would 

5 be one solution. But, you know, just based on 

6 the energy uses, it does seem like there's a lot 

7 of opportunity there. 

8 So, I think I guess the question is 

9 more of a legal one when you're talking about 

10 whether it's general or not, right. So, it's 

11 not so much about the energy savings where 

12 there's an opportunity, but kind of what the 

13 legal definition is, right. 

14 MR. WALKER: Alex, this is Matthew 

15 Walker. Can I ask you a clarification question? 

16 When you said not agreeing with the coverage of 

17 the highest wattages, were you including 1,000 

18 watts in that statement, or not including a 

19 thousand? 

20 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

21 Boesenberg, NEMA. I don't have my written thing 

22 in front of me. 
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1 MR. WALKER: Yes. 

2 MR. BOESENBERG: Perhaps one of my 

3 members can remember our discussions. I don't 

4 recall if it's 1,000 and greater or greater than 

5 1,000. I'll let someone else speak. 

6 MR. COOK: Keith Cook, Philips. 

7 Yes, a thousand-watt is frequently used in high 

8 mast, which does require the igniter if it's 

9 remote-mounted. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca, and then to 

11 Tom. 

12 MS. RAINER: I'm sorry, my comment 

13 doesn't really pertain to this. I do have 

14 someone on the phone also that wanted to make a 

15 comment, but they say they have no hand button 

16 to press. So, they don't have any way to make 

17 a comment. So, could you check that, please? 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for bringing 

19 that to our attention. This software has been 

20 working fairly well to date. 

21 MS. RAINER: Joe Hancock. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Is he on? 
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1 (Discussion off the record.) 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Tom. 

3 MR. HARDING: Tom Harding, Venture. 

4 Why are we considering probe-start for this 

5 category greater than a thousand -- or 

6 eliminating probe-start, in this category? 

7 In the first place, we made a comment 

8 that the efficiencies of the ballasts, probe and 

9 pulse, were about the same. You've added the 

10 cost of an igniter and my question is, why? 

11 MR. WALKER: Thomas, this is Matthew. 

12 We can -- it relates to the better mean efficacy 

13 of the lamp based on the assessment of 1,000-watt 

14 lamps. And we can talk about that in two slides. 

15 If we're ready to move on, we can go there. 

16 Otherwise, we can hold off. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead. 

18 MR. HARDING: Just to make one more 

19 comment, those lamps greater than a thousand 

20 typically are three to 6,000-hour lamps. 

21 They're very short-life lamps, which is why 

22 there isn't a lot of energy savings. They don't 
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1 run very long. 

2 I don't know what -- the thinking is 

3 they're 20,000-hour lamps like thousand-watts 

4 and below. They are not. They're three to 

5 6,000-hour lamps. Short life. You don't gain 

6 much in terms of efficacy over a very short-life 

7 product. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Tim. 

9 MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earthjustice. 

10 I'm just trying to understand the argument that 

11 the higher-wattage metal halides are not for 

12 general lighting application, because the 

13 statute defines that as providing overall 

14 illumination to an interior or exterior area. 

15 And I think we've heard that there 

16 are a variety of different applications that 

17 these higher wattage lamps serve: sports 

18 lighting, parks, airfields, those kind of 

19 things. So, I'm not seeing how that's not a 

20 general application of exterior illumination. 

21 MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from 

22 the General Counsel's office. I think there's 
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1 a good question. You know, we're somewhat 

2 limited in defining general service lamps by, in 

3 this case, potentially wattage, but there's a 

4 confounding factor here which is that you can 

5 have the same wattage -- or maybe you can clarify 

6 for us. 

7 Can you have the same wattage lamp 

8 used for something that the industry would 

9 consider general service and something the 

10 industry would not consider general service? 

11 MR. HOWLEY: I suppose that's 

12 possible at the lower wattages. We -- pretty 

13 much everything over a thousand watts, we would 

14 say is specialty, not general service. At a 

15 thousand watts, I think you have some of both 

16 going on. Some general service, and some 

17 specialty. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Sue, go ahead. 

19 MS. CALLAHAN: Okay. If we look at 

20 the DOE Lighting Market Characterization, if we 

21 just consider outdoor lighting and look at 

22 stadium lighting or if we just look at outdoor 
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1 lighting, the only place where we see wattages, 

2 typical standard wattages over a thousand -- and 

3 these are coming in at 1554 -- is stadium 

4 lighting. Everything else is 400 watts and 

5 below. 

6 And all we see for indoor lighting 

7 is a fraction over 400 watts, you know, 430, 

8 something like that and below, which pretty much 

9 indicates that where these lamps are used is very 

10 specific. To Doug's point, we're at the -- and 

11 we're operating only during the event, which 

12 comes out at roughly an hour a day. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl. 

14 MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, Acuity 

15 Brands. So, my comment is actually reverting 

16 back to Tom Harding. So, I don't know if you 

17 want to take more comments or if you want me to 

18 revert back. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Go. 

20 MS. ENGLISH: Okay. So, Tom made the 

21 point about the energy savings potential at a 

22 thousand watt. And I believe the response, 
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1 Matthew, was that the energy savings come from 

2 the lamp more so than from the ballast; is that 

3 correct? 

4 MR. WALKER: That is correct. 

5 MS. ENGLISH: Okay. And so, I will 

6 remind us that, you know, DOE legal has clarified 

7 that this rulemaking is a metal halide fixture 

8 rulemaking based on ballast efficiency. 

9 So, again, I think that that does 

10 raise a question of whether or not those 

11 efficiency levels can be justified under the 

12 statutory authority of this rulemaking. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I thought I saw 

14 someone else over here. Maybe not. Tim. 

15 MR. BALLO: Just one more follow-up 

16 comment on the general lighting application 

17 issue, you know. 

18 The focus there, we've been focusing 

19 on the application of the fixture, but the 

20 definition also refers to overall illumination. 

21 And I'm wondering if maybe the distinction isn't 

22 really that it's not a spotlight or, you know, 
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1 something that is intended to illuminate only a 

2 specific area rather than overall in an 

3 interior/exterior area. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's keep 

5 going. 

6 MR. WALKER: All right. So, a little 

7 -- a note on the input power estimation for the 

8 rulemaking. When establishing the ballast 

9 input power associated with an efficiency level, 

10 DOE modified the tested input power to account 

11 for a rise in lamp voltage over time for magnetic 

12 ballast efficiency levels, just because a 

13 magnetic ballast is unable to compensate for a 

14 rise in lamp voltage over life. So, system 

15 wattage increases over time. 

16 On the other hand, electronic 

17 ballasts were able to sense this change and 

18 maintain wattage over the life of the system. 

19 So, based on feedback received, DOE estimated 

20 that the system -- the system wattage increases 

21 up to 11 percent for magnetic ballasts, or for 

22 magnetically-ballasted systems. And, 
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1 therefore, accounted for that increase using a 

2 multiplier when calculating the magnetic 

3 ballast system energy use and did so by 

4 multiplying the tested input power by five and 

5 a half - or by five and a half percent, 1.055. 

6 DOE seeks comments on this approach 

7 to representing magnetic system input power. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

10 EEI. Just a quick follow-up question. When 

11 you say up to 11 percent, is that a typical case, 

12 or is that a worst-case value? 

13 MR. WALKER: That is -- 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: For this class of 

15 product. 

16 MR. WALKER: Sure. That represents 

17 a best estimate of how to characterize this 

18 phenomenon and we are seeking feedback on that 

19 estimate. 

20 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And, again, 

21 the reason I'm asking is suppose the range, you 

22 know, depending on the model and the 
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1 application, is anywhere from, let's say, two to 

2 11 percent rather than, you know, makes it seem 

3 like 11 percent is like a median or 

4 shipment-weighted average. The way it's 

5 written looks like that's kind of a max case 

6 there. So, I just wanted to -- it might be 

7 semantics. I'm just kind of curious about -- 

8 MR. WALKER: No, I see the point 

9 you're making. But based on the wording here, 

10 it is meant to be the best estimate of what 

11 happens in a typical case. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. That helps. 

13 Steve Rosenstock, yes, that helps if that's -- 

14 if it's a worst-case, then I would have some, I'd 

15 have some qualms about using it. But if it's a 

16 typical case, I see your methodology. Thank 

17 you. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

19 Daniel. 

20 MR. YOUNG: Another follow-up 

21 question for DOE or for manufacturers if they can 

22 answer the question, but do you know what the 
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1 shape of that curve looks like when it goes from 

2 zero up to 11 percent? Is it a linear 

3 depreciation, or curved? 

4 MR. WALKER: Yes, so the analysis 

5 assumes that it's a linear shape. However, 

6 there is not an abundance of data relating to 

7 this particular phenomenon. And so, that's 

8 sort of a conservative estimate relative to some 

9 other curvature that has a higher percentage of 

10 time closer to 11 percent, but we're certainly 

11 seeking feedback on this five and a half percent 

12 estimator. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Tom. 

14 MR. HARDING: Tom Harding, Venture. 

15 There is a voltage rise associated with metal 

16 halide lamps during life. However, it's 

17 extremely variable. You can make lamps that 

18 have very little and lamps that have a lot. So, 

19 I caution you against kind of typifying the whole 

20 industry with a number when it's highly 

21 variable. 

22 And also, it isn't totally linear 
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1 because as other features happen to the lamp, 

2 that can go down. The power factor 

3 consideration of the lamp makes them go down with 

4 time. So, I caution you about using that model 

5 at all for this number. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on. 

7 MR. WALKER: So, EISA 2007 did grant 

8 DOE authority to set an energy conservation 

9 standard based on both design and performance 

10 requirements. DOE estimated the use of a design 

11 standard to prohibit the sale of probe-start 

12 ballasts used in new fixtures. 

13 So, looking at the market because 

14 EISA 2007 had already set efficiency levels that 

15 effectively ban the use of probe-start ballasts 

16 and because probe-start ballasts are -- were 

17 never really used less than 150 watts, DOE 

18 targeted its design standard proposal on the 500 

19 to 2,000-watt range. 

20 So, like we were just getting into 

21 a couple minutes ago, the main advantages of 

22 pulse-start systems would be lumen maintenance 
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1 in the higher main lamp efficacies. But because 

2 the ballast efficiency differences are minimal, 

3 a switch to pulse-start systems cannot be 

4 achieved through a ballast efficiency standard 

5 alone. Instead, the design standard is 

6 required to encourage this change. So, 

7 therefore, in the NOPR, DOE considered both 

8 performance-based efficiency standards and 

9 design standard that bans probe-start ballasts 

10 in new fixtures and certain wattages. 

11 And I guess I can read this Issue 26. 

12 We're seeking comment on the design standard, as 

13 well as the potential for loss of utility through 

14 a transition of pulse-start. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Doug. 

16 MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco 

17 Lighting. I've got, I think, a few things here 

18 and I'll try and be brief. 

19 When I go back -- the first item. 

20 When I go back to the graph on Slide 36 where you 

21 just used EL1 and EL2, and that was because it 

22 was recognized there were no 
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1 commercially-available electronic ballasts 

2 available, we agree with that. 

3 I want to reference a study done by 

4 the Department of Energy back in February of 2013 

5 looking at lamps where there's -- it was an HID 

6 Lamp Interim Analysis. On Page 555, they 

7 recognized that there are no pulse-start lamps 

8 available either. So, to -- in that category 

9 the higher wattages. So, I guess to be 

10 consistent, it's another reason from my 

11 perspective that we wouldn't be considering that 

12 up in those higher wattages, you know, above a 

13 thousand watts. I know there is at a thousand, 

14 but there isn't at that level. So, I guess 

15 that's one point. 

16 The other point, and I won't go into 

17 the detail, but we take issue with the 5.6 

18 percent savings that's assumed on the 

19 thousand-watt lamp. I'll just say that there's 

20 a lot that goes into how the lamp is oriented, 

21 the arc tube. Industry testing is done in a 

22 vertical position. It's very standard. And I 
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1 think that's shown in also the testing that DOE 

2 did in that they show there's 12,000 hours for 

3 a vertical arc tube, and 9,000 for a horizontal. 

4 And then they used 11,700 as a means. So, 

5 obviously they took it way towards the vertical 

6 position. 

7 Again, when you get into a sports 

8 lighting application, that lamp arc tube is 

9 always going to be in a horizontal or in, even 

10 worse, a tilted position. And so, to assume 

11 there's going to be those energy savings, it's 

12 just a bad assumption and we've got test data 

13 that we will provide where, you know, those 

14 efficacy gains aren't there in that type of 

15 operating position. 

16 So, and then I think later on we'll 

17 get into the cost analysis. I'll say some 

18 further comments for that, but those are just 

19 another couple of points from my perspective or 

20 our perspective at Musco that it just doesn't 

21 make any sense to have the 1,500 watt included 

22 in this -- or above a thousand watt included in 
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1 this NOPR. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark, you all 

3 set? Steve Rosenstock. 

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

5 yes. Just a thought. Suppose there's a 

6 manufacturer out there working to improve the 

7 efficiency of the probe-start ballasts and 

8 they're able to produce one that has a higher 

9 efficiency? What's the impact of this ban in 

10 that scenario? 

11 MR. WALKER: Well, as written, the 

12 ban would supersede any efficiency gain that a 

13 probe-start ballast is able to achieve. It 

14 simply says probe-start ballasts may not be sold 

15 in new fixtures. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock. 

17 Yes, I thank you for that. Again, I see the 

18 premise why you're thinking is that, well, right 

19 now, you know, the probe-start ballasts are 

20 lower efficiencies. So, if you ban them, hey, 

21 you're getting rid of a lower-efficiency 

22 product. But on the other hand, you know, 
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1 lighting technology changes. 

2 I just always get a little concerned 

3 about outright bans, because you never know 

4 where the technology is going to take you. And 

5 if there's a manufacturer working on improving 

6 the efficiency of it, you've banned them from 

7 possibly allowing a higher-efficiency ballast 

8 to be used in these fixtures. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments 

10 here and specifically related to Issue 26? 

11 (No response.) 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should 

13 break for lunch. I think that it's time. It's 

14 10 minutes after 12:00. Let's have a full hour 

15 for lunch. Please, those of you that aren't 

16 familiar with the Forrestal Building, do not 

17 leave the Forrestal Building. 

18 We can all go en masse to the 

19 elevators down to the ground floor. There's a 

20 Subway shop if you want a Subway sandwich. 

21 Where the coffee shop is located on the ground 

22 floor, you hang left there, but there's a big 
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1 cafeteria, full-service cafeteria. You go 

2 right and about a hundred yards underneath the 

3 road, over and then up two escalators. 

4 You might need an ID to get back in. 

5 You will certainly need this badge. You'll have 

6 to pass through a security device. But, I mean, 

7 so that this room will be locked. It will be 

8 monitored. So, you can leave your stuff here. 

9 Okay. 

10 So, everybody understands the plan? 

11 We're going to resume at 10 minutes after 1:00. 

12 We've covered a lot of ground. We'll continue 

13 at that point. See you back here at 10 after 

14 1:00. 

15 (Whereupon, the proceedings went 

16 off the record.) 

17
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1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N 

2 (1:13 p.m.) 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's 

4 resume. I think we are on Slide 40 and Matthew 

5 Walker. 

6 MR. WALKER: All right. Okay. So 

7 Slide 40 gets us into the pricing component of 

8 the engineering analysis. We conduct the price 

9 analysis so that a cost efficiency relationship 

10 can be established. These prices used by DOE 

11 are developed using teardown data, retail prices 

12 from online distributors, as well as some 

13 aggregated manufacturer feedback through the 

14 interview process. 

15 I should highlight three changes 

16 from the preliminary analysis. The first is 

17 that material prices were updated for this cost 

18 model for the magnetic ballast. We have also 

19 added incremental cost of fixtures using 

20 electronic ballasts with the intent being to 

21 render those fixtures suitable substitutes for 

22 magnetically ballasted fixtures. And, 
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1 finally, the application of manufacturer 

2 markups was modified a bit to align better with 

3 existing channels. 

4 All right. So Slide 41 expands on 

5 the incremental cost for fixtures using 

6 electronic ballasts. So as mentioned before, 

7 the designation of a fixture as indoor or outdoor 

8 had no effect on the achievable efficiency of the 

9 ballasts. Instead, the difference is with the 

10 cost of the fixture. 

11 Magnetic ballasts are more robust 

12 than electronic ballasts and can handle higher 

13 temperatures and the high-voltage transients 

14 that come with outdoor applications. Because 

15 most electronic ballasts aren't designed for 

16 those conditions, fixtures using electronic 

17 ballasts require additional thermal management, 

18 voltage transient protection when used 

19 outdoors. 

20 Additionally, when electronic 

21 ballasts are used indoors, we incorporated a 

22 small cost adder to account for the need for 
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1 120-volt auxiliary power functionality, which 

2 we used for safety purposes in the event of a 

3 power outage, a temporary loss of power. 

4 So the figure on this slide gives an 

5 example cost efficiency graph, specifically for 

6 the 400-watt fixtures. So you can see that the 

7 end result is that indoor and outdoor fixtures 

8 are assumed to have the same cost efficiency 

9 relationship when using magnetic ballasts, so 

10 that's at EL1 and EL2. Then, when you 

11 transition to electronic ballasts at EL3 and 4, 

12 the outdoor fixture MSPs are larger relative to 

13 the indoor fixture MSPs. 

14 So I'll read the first issue. DOE 

15 is seeking comment on the applicability and 

16 appropriateness of electronic ballast MPC 

17 adders for the three factors that we just talked 

18 about. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. 

20 MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with 

21 Philips. I guess I'm a little concerned with 

22 this because it leads you to believe that in any 
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1 application you can just replace a magnetic with 

2 an electronic. And as we said two years ago, 

3 that is not always the case. Due to the heat 

4 considerations, today a lot of the HID fixtures 

5 are designed that the core and coil is right 

6 above the lamp. 

7 And so if you've got a 400-watt 

8 application, all of that heat is going straight 

9 up into the ballast. Core and coil doesn't 

10 care. With an electronic, it cannot live in 

11 that environment. Pure and simple. And so to 

12 believe that we can just replace magnetic with 

13 electronic doesn't work. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Chacko. 

15 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips. 

16 Something that you have to keep in mind, the 

17 auxiliary power, the electronics option, is 

18 always not available for all of the electronic 

19 ballasts. So then you have to end up putting an 

20 additional transformer in there. It's going to 

21 add more cost and losses. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chris? No? 
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1 Joe. 

2 MR. HOWLEY: Well, it also seems 

3 that this analysis does not include the comment 

4 made earlier that at certain of these levels the 

5 footprint of the electromagnetic ballast is 

6 going to have to increase to go to these higher 

7 efficiency levels, which means every one of 

8 these fixtures is going to have to be redesigned 

9 to be larger. 

10 And if the fixtures are redesigned 

11 to be larger, in some cases the poles are going 

12 to have to be redesigned to be bigger. And so 

13 there is a lot of extra cost when you get into 

14 bigger fixtures and bigger poles, and none of 

15 that extra cost is included in the price analysis 

16 or the economic analysis. 

17 MR. WALKER: Can I pose a follow up 

18 on the electronic ballasts? So it is true that 

19 there are electronic ballasts, metal halide 

20 ballasts, being sold on the market right now. 

21 Would we be able to talk about where those 

22 electronic ballasts are being used and maybe 
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1 specifically where they are not being used for 

2 the concerns that you all are citing? 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca. 

4 MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer, Eaton 

5 Cooper. I can say for my company we use no 

6 electronic ballasts for any of our HID product 

7 today, except maybe a very limited low wattage 

8 in some garage applications, but that's very 

9 limited. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe? 

11 MR. HOWLEY: Joe Howley from GE. 

12 We do have an electronic, but it is -- the higher 

13 wattage of the 400-watt version is designed for 

14 sort of an indoor industrial, you know, air 

15 conditioned/heated space type of application. 

16 So an ideal sort of indoor space that we sell 

17 either, you know, in a -- perhaps a warehouse or 

18 perhaps a retail, probably more likely a big box 

19 kind of retail application where you have ideal 

20 operating conditions. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith? 

22 MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with 
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1 Philips. We make a lot of electronic HID-type 

2 ballasts, anywhere from the 400 watt down to 

3 39 -- 25 watt I think may be the smallest one we 

4 have. 

5 A lot of them are used in retail 

6 applications. A lot of them are not necessarily 

7 for coarse metal halide. A lot of them are for 

8 ceramic metal halide, which is a little bit more 

9 adaptable to this technology. But even the 

10 coarse metal halide, typically it has required 

11 major fixture redesigns, totally new fixtures in 

12 order to use them. They couldn't be replaced in 

13 existing fixtures. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl? 

15 MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, 

16 Acuity Brands. So to answer your question, we 

17 use electronic ballasts and low wattage in down 

18 lights, cylinder type of architectural 

19 lighting, low wattage condition spaces where 

20 there is no temperature or good power quality. 

21 That's the only place we use them. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks 
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1 to all of you. Yes, Louis. 

2 MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA. 

3 Maybe the manufacturers can help understand 

4 this. The reason that maybe electronic 

5 ballasts aren't used in higher wattage is 

6 because it would take research and development 

7 to make that happen. 

8 Is that the primary reason? Or is 

9 it just that costs associated with that doesn't 

10 seem really a worthwhile payback? Or what's the 

11 general kind of movement not to do that? Or is 

12 it strictly -- it's a utility thing, it just 

13 doesn't make sense to use it in this application, 

14 so why would you do it? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko. 

16 MR. OOMMEN: From our own 

17 history -- Chacko from Philips -- we have -- the 

18 highest power that we have was 400 watt. We 

19 actually discontinued the 400 watt for similar 

20 reasons. But we looked at other higher power 

21 units. There are no components available for 

22 such a high power to fit inside a certain 
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1 enclosure. 

2 So if you make it like big as the big 

3 power supplies, I mean, we cannot sell those. 

4 So basically the components are not available 

5 for the high power applications -- reasonably 

6 sized components. And also, the expense, the 

7 cost of it is very higher than, much higher 

8 than -- maybe three times the magnetic ballast. 

9 MR. KEITH COOK: The other problem 

10 we had -- this is Keith Cook with Philips. The 

11 other problem we had was also getting heat out, 

12 because at the higher power we also -- we are 

13 typically in higher temperature environments. 

14 And the components, we just couldn't find 

15 enough -- the components were rated at those high 

16 temperatures. It was just very difficult. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

18 MR. STARR: So the components are 

19 probably the heat sink, the ballast enclosure 

20 itself. What are some of the components that 

21 are kind of the limiting factors? 

22 MR. KEITH COOK: Switching 
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1 electronics was part of the problem, but the 

2 capacitors was also the other biggest problem. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

4 A small primer. Daniel? 

5 MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young, 

6 California Utilities. So I've actually seen a 

7 few projects, outdoor lighting projects, in fact 

8 that were specified with ceramic metal halide 

9 lamps and electronic ballasts. So I guess my 

10 question is, is there a reason that some outdoor 

11 fixtures or projects could use ceramic metal 

12 halides, electronic ballasts, and others would 

13 not be able to? 

14 MR. OOMMEN: The last few that we 

15 made, they could be used for outdoor 

16 application, that we designed specifically for 

17 that application. But, you know, basically, 

18 the problem is the fixture manufacturer had to 

19 make new fixtures for those designs. They 

20 cannot use existing designs, you know, so brand 

21 new. 

22 MR. YOUNG: Right. And, again, so 
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1 since this is a fixture rulemaking, then 

2 existing fixtures -- well, I mean, there are 

3 other reasons for considering retrofits, but, 

4 really, the rule applies to new fixtures. So I 

5 guess I don't see the problem there. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: So going 

7 back -- Chacko, thank you for your comment. 

8 Alex? 

9 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. I was going to 

10 has a question, but maybe I -- 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Go right ahead. 

12 Please. 

13 MR. HOFMANN: All right. Yes, new 

14 fixtures are the focus here. We are very 

15 concerned about maintaining the existing -- the 

16 ability to maintain our existing 

17 infrastructure. What I'd like to ask is, in 

18 this thermal management line item, did you 

19 include -- does that include things like 

20 weather, the type of stuff that a fixture might 

21 deal with, but extreme cold, extreme heat, 

22 humidity, salt water, salt air? Is the 20 
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1 percent increase for outdoor exposure to the 

2 elements? Because to me that seems a little bit 

3 low, but, I mean, obviously, I'm not an expert. 

4 So -- 

5 MR. WALKER: Well, the 20 percent 

6 increase would apply to the high temperature 

7 scenario, not so much the extreme cold. And it 

8 doesn't have anything to do with the saline 

9 environment or something like that. 

10 So, yes, the 20 percent cost adder 

11 addresses the need for additional heat sinking, 

12 a more expensive fixture design that allows for 

13 extraction of more heats from the electronic 

14 ballast situation, because they are less able to 

15 operate under such high temperatures. And that 

16 happens in both the indoor and outdoor 

17 scenarios, because even in an indoors at the top 

18 of a ceiling and a hot non-air-conditioned space 

19 you are still dealing with very high 

20 temperatures. 

21 So that adder was applied in both the 

22 indoor and outdoor situation for the 
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1 electronically ballasted fixture. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe? 

3 MR. HOWLEY: So just to kind of put 

4 this out, I was going back to this other 

5 conversation we were having about what you're 

6 hearing is that many, many of these fixtures 

7 today and applications do not have and are not 

8 designed to use electronic ballasts. In fact, 

9 the vast majority of them, especially on the 

10 higher wattages, are designed to use 

11 electromagnetic. If we attempt to go into 

12 electronic, especially outdoors, it takes a 

13 great deal of care and attention and design and 

14 development. 

15 I understand they are planning on 

16 putting this rulemaking in place in 12 months, 

17 and it is an enormous engineering problem to go 

18 through and even take one of our fixtures and to 

19 try to adapt it to an electronic design, try to 

20 make sure that's properly made, it's thermally 

21 managed, it's tested, it's UL tested, the 

22 thermals are right. It is a big engineering 
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1 problem to do this, and it is -- we are almost 

2 starting from scratch with that where we have to 

3 design that from scratch. 

4 It's not something that can be done 

5 in 12 months, and that is, you know, part of our 

6 huge concern here is that it -- almost it seems 

7 like this would -- kind of the contemplation is 

8 I can just take my existing magnetic fixture and 

9 just throw an electronic ballast into it and I'm 

10 good to go. And that is not the case at all. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear 

12 from -- yes, Alex, I think you were next, and then 

13 Chris. 

14 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

15 Boesenberg from NEMA. I want to follow up on Mr. 

16 Young's last statement regarding some 

17 California applications. And I think part of 

18 what -- something we have mentioned but not 

19 actually come right out and talked about is that 

20 there are existing regulations in California 

21 that beget the use of electronic ballasts 

22 outside. 
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1 And my members are free to speak up 

2 as soon as I'm finished. My understanding of 

3 the California regulations is that that is being 

4 satisfied through two -- two different ways or 

5 by the combination of two different conditions. 

6 The first condition is replacing the fixture, 

7 such as we are already speaking of. Those 

8 fixtures were redesigned, made better to work 

9 with the ballasts to keep an electronic ballast 

10 operating correctly and alive outdoors. 

11 The other thing is the efficiency 

12 level in California is low enough that the amount 

13 of redesign was not as challenging as would be 

14 proposed in some of the levels of this rule. So 

15 it was kept low enough that we could make it for 

16 certain products, not necessarily the whole 

17 gamut, not as wide a range of products as we're 

18 talking here today. 

19 So California pushed us hard. I 

20 think it pushed -- a nice way to say it, 

21 California was certainly higher than 

22 certain -- than some manufacturers wanted, than 
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1 some people wanted. But it was still kept to a 

2 level that was attainable. And so it has been 

3 a very useful learning experience in terms of 

4 being successful in electronic ballast 

5 applications outdoors. It is not necessarily 

6 scalable yet. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris? 

8 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with 

9 Universal. I just wanted to add on to Joe's 

10 comment, from a design cycle standpoint. I 

11 mean, when you -- you think eight to 12 months' 

12 design cycle, which would incorporate your 

13 design, your DVT, your design validation 

14 testing, and then your UL testing, and then it 

15 doesn't end there. Then we go into all of our 

16 life-cycle testing, ALT 8, HALT, and everything 

17 else. 

18 I mean, it's not -- I just wanted 

19 to -- from a manufacturer of a ballast's 

20 perspective, just kind of back up his comment 

21 that, you know, if they're looking at 12 months, 

22 that is -- one product takes eight to 12 months 
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1 to do. And then that is making the assumption 

2 that we know exactly how it is going to work in 

3 the fixture. And as we're talking, those 

4 fixtures don't even exist. So we wouldn't even 

5 have any idea where to start with the thermals 

6 on this thing. 

7 MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young, 

8 California Utilities. If I could just respond 

9 to a couple of the points. So, first, with 

10 respect to Alex's comment, so it is true that 

11 California does have the standard, and it has 

12 multiple compliance pathways. It's not just as 

13 straightforward as "You must be electronic 

14 ballasts and you pass." That is actually not 

15 what I was thinking about. I was just thinking 

16 of individual projects that I had heard of that 

17 were using ceramic metal halides with electronic 

18 ballasts. 

19 So, and to be perfectly honest, I 

20 don't know the exact efficiencies of the 

21 ballasts in those projects. I just was curious 

22 about the technical feasibility of the 
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1 application. 

2 And then the other comment, with 

3 respect to I guess -- so my understanding is that 

4 the efficiency levels that DOE has based their 

5 analysis on are achievable by currently 

6 commercially available electronic ballasts. 

7 So if there are these commercially available 

8 electronic ballasts now being sold today, 

9 presumably they are being used in fixtures 

10 today, and, you know, so we're not talking 

11 about -- 

12 PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible comment 

13 from an off mic location.) 

14 MR. YOUNG: Sure, sure, sure. In 

15 certain applications maybe. Not in every 

16 application, but -- so and I'm not a fixture 

17 manufacturer. I don't know every 

18 manufacturer -- excuse me, every fixture it is 

19 and isn't used in. But I guess, again, my 

20 understanding is that these are existing 

21 fixtures that they base their analysis on. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris, you're next. 
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1 MR. HOLSTEIN: Just a comment on the 

2 commercially available electronic. I believe 

3 Matthew stated that there is not a commercially 

4 available 400-watt electronic ballast, which I 

5 believe that is correct. So there are 

6 commercially available what we consider low 

7 frequency, right, low frequency. And then 

8 there are commercially available products that 

9 are designed for an indoor use. So there is a 

10 difference. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's move 

12 on. 

13 MR. WALKER: So I haven't read Issue 

14 28, which is seeking comment on generally the 

15 appropriateness of the MSPs that are listed in 

16 the NOPR and the TSD. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: MSPs. 

18 MR. WALKER: The manufacturer 

19 selling price of the ballast and fixtures. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Let me make a process 

21 note, or I should say a web-based note, that we 

22 have been on our end down here -- our web folks 
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1 have been working to try and make sure that 

2 everybody who wanted to get on was getting on, 

3 and I think that -- I had hoped that we had 

4 resolved this issue. And right now Joe Hancock 

5 is the first person who has raised his hand and 

6 has a comment. 

7 Joe, unmute your phone and speak 

8 clearly. 

9 MR. HANCOCK: Hi. I'm sorry, I 

10 raised my hand a while ago, but I'm having some 

11 issues I guess. 

12 I'd like to go back if I may and talk 

13 about electronic ballasts and our view of 

14 electronic ballasts as a utility. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Sure. 

16 MR. HANCOCK: So just a little 

17 background, I'm with Florida Power and Light. 

18 Our span of control is about 850,000 lights 

19 within our service territory in the state of 

20 Florida. And we have a lot of misgivings about 

21 a regulation that would cause us to move to 

22 electronic ballasts for metal halide. 
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1 Core and coil ballasts have a lot of 

2 inherent reliability to surge, sag, swell, even 

3 salt and such. And we have been testing 

4 electronic ballasts in our lab and in the field 

5 for the last three years, and there is a much 

6 lower level of reliability for the electronic 

7 ballasts, and we are very concerned about that 

8 basic reliability to surge. 

9 Also, a number of the manufacturers 

10 have stated that the electronic ballasts are 

11 designed to work on a three-wire grounded 

12 National Electric Code type system. And as an 

13 electric utility, we run a two-wire NESC system. 

14 So our grounding schema is not your normal indoor 

15 grounding schema. 

16 We are having difficulties with 

17 electronic drivers in these conditions and 

18 hearing about other utilities. Duke has had 

19 some issues, and I think National Grid has had 

20 some issues. We are very concerned about being 

21 forced into electronic drivers. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you, 
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1 Joe. Appreciate that comment. 

2 MR. HANCOCK: Thank you. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And so back, 

4 then, to Issue 28, MSPs. 

5 MR. WALKER: Yes. Keith. 

6 MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook from 

7 Philips. I think as we previously stated the 20 

8 percent number that you are showing I think is 

9 way understated. It is going to be much more 

10 than that when you consider pole changes as well 

11 as the fixture changes as well as the electronic 

12 ballast itself, making it adaptable for the 

13 outdoor applications in particular. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other 

15 comments here? Yes, Mike. 

16 MR. STEVENS: Mike Stevens, Georgia 

17 Power. I mean, I was going to echo what Joe was 

18 saying and what you're saying. You know, I'm 

19 sitting here listening and realizing that 

20 everything I feel like we're talking about is 

21 going to drive the cost up substantially, right? 

22 Which means we are going to have to pass it on 
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1 to our end-use customers. And I'm having a hard 

2 time understanding what is the benefit. What 

3 are we going to benefit from doing that. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

5 MR. STEVENS: Because we're talking 

6 about off-peak energy and reduction in that, 

7 so -- 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: There's more of a 

9 description of the benefits coming in -- 

10 MR. STEVENS: Okay. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: -- subsequent 

12 slides. 

13 MR. WALKER: Okay. So this slide 

14 covers the scaling component. Once efficiency 

15 levels are established for each of the 

16 representative classes, DOE then develops a 

17 scaling relationship to apply those efficiency 

18 levels to the remaining classes. So this 

19 process involves comparison of lamps that 

20 differed only by the input voltage on which they 

21 are tested. 

22 So in comparing quad voltage 
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1 ballasts tested at the appropriate voltage to 

2 the dedicated 480-volt ballasts that have 

3 similar characteristics, the dedicated 480-volt 

4 ballasts were on average .6 percent less 

5 efficient. And so, therefore, DOE proposed 

6 using this .6 percent scaling factor to adjust 

7 the efficiency level equations for those 

8 non-representative classes. And we are seeking 

9 comment on that proposal. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

11 MR. HOLSTEIN: This is Chris with 

12 Universal Lighting again. We think that the 

13 scaling factor in concept seems to be a viable 

14 concept, but it's not -- you can't use a .6 

15 percent across all wattages. When you get to 

16 the lower wattages, and we looked on the 480-volt 

17 class, you can get differences as high as 2.3 to 

18 2.5 percent. 

19 So at the higher wattages it might 

20 be close, and we don't know what the number is, 

21 we'd have to go out and test it. But we looked 

22 specifically at the lower wattage products, and 
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1 it's far greater than .6 percent gap between the 

2 two. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

4 So those -- that comment, that detail in your 

5 written comments, will be very helpful to the 

6 Department. Thank you. 

7 Additional comments here on scaling 

8 factors? 

9 (No response.) 

10 Okay. 

11 MR. WALKER: So now we can move on 

12 to the trial standard level, which is a 

13 combination of efficiency levels that DOE would 

14 analyze for the impact of standards. So you 

15 take all of those efficiency levels that we have 

16 seen on previous slides and create five options 

17 that are considered as potential proposals. So 

18 just starting at the top and going down, I'm just 

19 going to describe each of them. 

20 TSL 5 is the most stringent and 

21 required max tech levels for every equipment 

22 class. Moving down to TSL 4, this selects the 
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1 highest efficiency level for each equipment 

2 class that still has positive net present value, 

3 or NPV. 

4 TSL 3 selects the efficiency level 

5 that has the maximum positive NPV but requires 

6 at the same efficiency level as selected for 

7 indoor and outdoor equipment classes at a 

8 particular wattage. So you can't have a 

9 mismatch with the same wattage. TSL 2 selects 

10 the maximum technologically feasible magnetic 

11 ballast efficiency level for each equipment 

12 class, which, again, was EL2. 

13 And then, lastly, TSL 1 is the least 

14 stringent level and requires EL1 for all 

15 equipment classes as long as those have a 

16 positive NPV. And then you can see highlighted 

17 in gold here TSL 3 was what is proposed at this 

18 stage of the rulemaking. 

19 So then this slide kind of -- so this 

20 slide takes those TSL definitions and maps out 

21 which efficiency levels are paired up for each 

22 of those descriptions. Again, I guess I 
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1 should -- I want to point out that the 500- to 

2 2,000-watt equipment classes have that design 

3 standard proposal that was going to -- would ban 

4 the use of probe-start ballasts and new metal 

5 halide lamp fixtures. Again, you can see TSL 3 

6 is the one proposed, and it shows the particular 

7 efficiency level selected for each equipment 

8 class. 

9 So at this point DOE is seeking 

10 comment on the appropriateness of the proposed 

11 TSLs, meaning these five selections that were 

12 considered in the analysis. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

15 EEI. I appreciate the -- I'm going to call it 

16 the Rosetta Stones of TSLs versus ELs here 

17 especially. But looking back, basically, 

18 especially for TSL 2 is really EL2, and that's 

19 a max tech magnetic ballast which was modeled 

20 here, right, if I'm saying that correctly? A 

21 modeled max tech magnetic ballast that -- 

22 MR. WALKER: You're correct. 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- is not 

2 necessarily on the market yet. And then the EL4 

3 for the 100/150, that is a -- that is a max tech 

4 as well, as I look through the thing. That's 

5 a -- for those particular -- for the 100/150, as 

6 I was looking through, it looked like that was 

7 also a max tech for anything type of ballast. 

8 Let me just -- 

9 MR. WALKER: That's right. EL4 is 

10 the most efficient level overall, and we can 

11 think of EL2 as being the most efficient magnetic 

12 ballast. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. So EL4 is 

14 also a max tech, but for anything in that product 

15 category. 

16 MR. WALKER: Correct. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So, I mean, 

18 I think that's what -- you know, your -- it looks 

19 like your -- this level is really topping out at 

20 what's either modeled on the market or what is 

21 on the market, it seems like. Is that a fair 

22 characterization? 
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1 MR. WALKER: Well, I mean, I 

2 wouldn't say -- not exactly. I mean, TSL 5 is 

3 the most efficient electronic ballast, and those 

4 are available on the market. The best 

5 description of TSL 3 is really what I've said 

6 before, which involves a lot of the economic 

7 results. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 

9 MR. WALKER: TSL 3 maximizes NPV for 

10 each equipment class and requires that indoor 

11 and outdoor classes have the same efficiency 

12 level selected. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. 

14 MR. WALKER: So we are going to get 

15 into the NPV results later. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith, and then 

18 Chris. 

19 MR. KEITH COOK: I guess one concern 

20 I'd like to express is I don't believe that a 

21 model necessarily proves technological 

22 feasibility. So I don't see how that can be 
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1 chosen, then, as a TSL. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

3 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with the 

4 Universal Lighting. I think Keith kind of beats 

5 me to the punch. I'd like to just point out that 

6 your TSL 3, either it doesn't exist, it's 

7 modeled, based off of something, or it's -- we're 

8 going to electronic, which isn't going to work 

9 very well in that application. It seems like a 

10 fantastic time bomb of disaster to me. I mean, 

11 there is no -- there is nothing on here that even 

12 seems reasonable. I mean, it's all either 

13 modeled or pontificated. It makes no sense. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna. 

15 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I'd just 

16 note that if I heard correctly what DOE said is 

17 that the model they used for the EL2, the kind 

18 of improved magnetic was based almost entirely 

19 on manufacturer input. So, you know, it was a 

20 model but based on, you know, significant -- 

21 MR. KEITH COOK: Yes. It was all 

22 hearsay. I mean, it was one of these deals where 
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1 the guys came in during the manufacturing 

2 analysis and said, "Well, if you were to hold a 

3 footprint constant, about how much more 

4 efficiency would you get if you went to a 

5 high-grade silicon steel and copper wire?" 

6 No calculations were done, nobody 

7 built anything, nothing was tested, nothing was 

8 demonstrated. That is not a very good proof. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

10 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with 

11 Universal. You know, I'd like to see them build 

12 it. They modeled it, so they must think it's 

13 possible. Get yourself a manufacturing 

14 facility and a lab and put it together, send it 

15 to us, let us test it. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

17 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

18 NEMA. I wanted to add -- it wasn't quite 

19 said -- remember our presentation regarding the 

20 ability of something modeled or even built in a 

21 lab to be run to full-scale production and series 

22 manufacture. A lot of other rulemakings draw 
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1 the higher technology or the higher levels from 

2 existing production, just that tend to be the 

3 higher performing variants. And so I would echo 

4 the inherent hazards in modeling something 

5 without proving that it can be built and then be 

6 built by the thousands. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, keep going. 

8 MR. DUFFY: While I certainly agree 

9 with those comments, earlier in the meeting I 

10 asked the question, did the model include the 

11 thermal parameters that are necessary, and I got 

12 the answer back very clearly, no, it was not. 

13 So the model itself has a flaw that 

14 it does not include the thermal characteristics 

15 of the luminaire and the boundary conditions. I 

16 know that I'm speaking technically here, but the 

17 reality is there are technical flaws, technical 

18 aspects of the model, that are insufficient in 

19 order to even think about building that first 

20 prototype and testing it to see if it actually 

21 functions the way the model would say it does. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis. 
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1 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 

2 NEEA. I guess this is kind of a question for the 

3 manufacturers. But if the DOE contractors -- I 

4 think I heard from Keith that they didn't do a 

5 great job, perhaps, in his viewpoint of maybe 

6 doing an analysis of what those technology -- or 

7 technological feasibility of the system, if they 

8 were to come back and spend more time with 

9 someone like Chris at Universal Lighting, or 

10 some others, do you feel like that would help in 

11 help setting these levels, or what do you see as 

12 the solution? Because there is the ability to 

13 have something more efficient than -- well, I 

14 guess that's a question, too. Is there an 

15 ability to have something more efficient than 

16 what's out there in EL2 or do you perceive that 

17 as totally impossible? 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris. 

19 MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with 

20 Universal. I think the only way that I could 

21 respond to that is, you know, when these meetings 

22 and things happen, and we sit through them, these 
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1 are -- it's kind of like we sit down at the table 

2 and like, you know, "Hey, we're going to make 

3 fish tonight. What do you think I should add to 

4 it?" Right? 

5 But until you sit down and actually 

6 go to a lab with your double E's and with your 

7 techs, and you try to put something together, you 

8 know, all it is is conversation. I mean, the 

9 idea would be that, you know, they would have 

10 some way to validate what they have, right? And 

11 I don't see that validation. 

12 We could sit down and try to do that, 

13 but it's not going to be something you can do in 

14 two or three weeks. And then I go back to 

15 the -- you know, and now it has been brought up 

16 again, I've got a little -- you know, a little 

17 excited the last time I spoke, but I've calmed 

18 down again. 

19 The series manufacturing piece is a 

20 big issue. I mean, we stated it in our beginning 

21 presentation, that, you know, when you sit in a 

22 lab environment and you pick the absolute best 
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1 of everything, and you build it by hand, you get 

2 a completely different result than when you are 

3 building, you know, a couple hundred of these 

4 things every 15 minutes in series or mass 

5 production. And you are bringing in big batches 

6 of material that can vary across the board, so 

7 there is a big difference between 

8 modeled -- modeled can be one thing, a lab can 

9 be another thing, and what is actually feasibly 

10 possible in a manufacturing facility for this 

11 kind of product is something totally different. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith? 

13 MR. KEITH COOK: I've got a 

14 real-world example of where this has happened. 

15 A number of years ago, I used to be in charge of 

16 product development at our ballast division. 

17 And we went through and came up with a new design 

18 for a lamination, which was a significant cost 

19 reduction. And the objective of the project was 

20 to be able to make this change without having to 

21 affect any luminaires. 

22 And we worked and worked and worked 
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1 on doing that, and we were 90 percent successful. 

2 But there are some cases where you just can't do 

3 it, because you are having to deal with 

4 incremental wire turns, not a half a wire, not 

5 a full or three-quarters of a turn, it's a full 

6 turn. You are dealing with incremental 

7 laminations, not a half a lam, not a quarter-lam, 

8 a full lamination. And so you end up with 

9 incremental steps that you have to work with. 

10 So you can go through and ratio these 

11 things as much as you want, but when it comes to 

12 real world you have to live with physical 

13 properties that you have no control over that 

14 causes change. And so, therefore, to believe 

15 that we can just do this thing and end up with 

16 more efficiency without creating any change 

17 won't work. 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's move 

19 on. 

20 MR. WALKER: That brings me to the 

21 end of my slides. I will hand it over to Michael 

22 Myer. 
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1 MR. MYER: Good afternoon. I'm 

2 Michael Myer. I'm with Pacific Northwest 

3 National Laboratory. I'll be presenting a 

4 couple of different things today. First up, 

5 I'll be discussing energy use characterization 

6 and the markups analysis. 

7 So we have seen this slide a couple 

8 of times. This is the NOPR stage breakout. We 

9 just discussed the engineering analysis. That 

10 feeds into both the markups analysis as well as 

11 the energy use analysis. Both of those are data 

12 inputs for the life-cycle cost and payback 

13 period analysis. So this just shows where we're 

14 going. 

15 The energy use analysis is a 

16 somewhat straightforward process. You take the 

17 outputs of the engineering analysis, so these 

18 are wattage values based on whatever the 

19 efficiency for that EL is. We then looked at the 

20 Lighting Market Characterization -- 2010 -- for 

21 the use of metal halide technologies, what are 

22 the operating hours, building types, and so on. 
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1 Came up with an annual average hours 

2 for each, and you multiply the two products 

3 together and you get a representative equipment 

4 class. So you'll see the 70 watt. That's a 

5 representative, and that's the annual energy use 

6 in kilowatt hours. 

7 Yes. 

8 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

9 Edison Electric Institute. So I'm just looking 

10 at the 1,000-watt lamp, and I'm just 

11 assuming -- I just assumed 10 percent more for 

12 the ballast. Please forgive me, I'm just doing 

13 this off the top of my head. 

14 So in that case, if you assumed 1,100 

15 watts for that fixture, that 1,000-watt fixture, 

16 you are assuming 6,836 hours of use per year for 

17 the 1,000-watt fixture? 

18 MR. MYER: Thanks for the 

19 clarification question. The first number on 

20 the left is the indoor number, and then the -- 

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. 

22 MR. MYER: -- second number on the 
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1 right is -- yes. So we discussed earlier that 

2 some indoor fixtures -- Ms. Cheryl English 

3 commented that these are used in like stamping 

4 plants. So this is an interior industrial 

5 application that is probably operating 16 hours 

6 a day, or we can get into the different 

7 permutations of how many days per week. But 

8 that is an indoor application operating 

9 somewhere along those lines. 

10 The number on the right side 

11 is -- yes, would be the exterior. And your math, 

12 basically, of 1,100 is pretty close for that 

13 wattage category. Yes, sir. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

15 MR. MYER: Okay. Thank you. I 

16 will be moving on to the markups analysis. So 

17 for the markups analysis we came up with three 

18 different distribution channels. This was some 

19 input we received after the preliminary 

20 analysis. The idea is that you have a 

21 manufacturer markup selling price, the MSP, and 

22 then you have three different channels -- A, B, 
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1 and C. 

2 A goes from manufacturer to a 

3 wholesaler, to then a contractor, to then sales 

4 decks. Distribution Channel B is more where it 

5 is going directly from the manufacturer to a 

6 contractor, and then you have the sales tax. 

7 And then, finally, C is direct sales, different 

8 scenarios. Maybe a utility or a city might be 

9 experiencing something like that. 

10 So depending on, if it's an indoor 

11 fixture, we assumed all indoor fixtures went 

12 through Channel A. And for outdoor fixtures we 

13 assumed a variety of distribution of whether or 

14 not it was A, B, or C. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments/questions 

16 on what you see here? 

17 (No response.) 

18 Okay. 

19 MR. MYER: At this time, I'm going 

20 to pause -- oh. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl English. 

22 MR. MYER: Ms. English is going to 
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1 ask a question. 

2 MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, 

3 Acuity Brands. I will just comment that of the 

4 models here, of the supply chain, they are very 

5 commercial-focused and the expanded wattages on 

6 the low range do include residential, which is 

7 a very different channel and very different 

8 markups. 

9 It is similar to the Channel A, but 

10 I think the markups in the residential channel 

11 will be quite different than what you find in 

12 commercial applications. So you want to go back 

13 and take a look at that. 

14 MR. MYER: Thank you. This is the 

15 second time residential has come up, and I'd just 

16 like to go back to the Lighting Market 

17 Characterization, since that was a reference 

18 brought up as well. 

19 Typically, metal halide is a very 

20 low percentage of use in residential 

21 applications. I mean, one percent or less of 

22 all metal halide usage. Is that a fair 
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1 assumption to use, or would you have a better 

2 recommendation? 

3 MS. ENGLISH: I don't know off the 

4 top of my head. It is low relative to the entire 

5 market, but it is -- has been an opportunity for 

6 the residential marketplace to promote a more 

7 efficient solution than halogen or compact 

8 fluorescent solutions. 

9 So, obviously, to reiterate, the 

10 concern on the levels is that if we drastically 

11 increase the price on those products the 

12 market -- in the residential market, it is going 

13 to snap back and start using more energy through 

14 less efficient fixtures. But I do think that 

15 the percentage is relatively low relative to the 

16 entire metal halide marketplace. 

17 MR. MYER: May I ask one follow up? 

18 So if we say -- it should be low wattage, all 

19 under 150, or would it be extremely low wattage, 

20 under 50 watts, do you think would be more common 

21 for metal halide, residential? 

22 MS. ENGLISH: So, you know, not an 
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1 answer that I would hold to. We can respond to 

2 it in written comment. But there are certainly 

3 100 watt and below metal halides that are sold 

4 through residential channels. I'm not sure on 

5 150 watt, and others may have residential 

6 products that they sell at 150 watt. Most of 

7 them are 100 watt and below. 

8 MR. MYER: Thank you very much. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. 

10 MR. MYER: At this time, I am 

11 introducing my colleague, Scott Morris, who will 

12 discuss life-cycle costs and payback analysis. 

13 MR. MORRIS: Good afternoon. As 

14 Michael mentioned just barely, the markups 

15 analysis and the energy use analysis go hand in 

16 hand, work hand in hand, to inform the life-cycle 

17 cost and payback period analysis. 

18 This is the only slide where we will 

19 show results from the LCC and payback period 

20 analysis. Note that all efficiency levels 

21 required by TSL 3 can be achieved with magnetic 

22 ballast technology, except for the 150-watt 
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1 equipment class, which requires electronic 

2 ballast technology. 

3 I'll further note that life-cycle 

4 cost savings are positive for all of the 

5 equipment classes, and the majority of consumers 

6 or customers experience a net benefit from the 

7 proposed TSL. 

8 Also, a further note from our 

9 conversations earlier this morning: There was a 

10 comment made that the lifetime of a ballast, for 

11 example, is only 10 years. So how can we have 

12 cost effective payback periods greater than the 

13 lifetime of a ballast? Consider that these 

14 results are based on the lifetime of a fixture, 

15 which have been assumed to be 20 years for an 

16 indoor fixture, 25 years for an outdoor fixture. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 

18 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

19 EEI. I have several comments, so I hope 

20 everybody will indulge me as I go through some 

21 of these. I know that the title is "Fixture," 

22 but what's really happening is -- really, what 
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1 is being affected is the ballast. 

2 If the ballast for an outdoor 

3 fixture -- I'll say a utility fixture -- is going 

4 to go out in 10 years, and the payback is 14 

5 years. If I have to replace a ballast, I don't 

6 care about the fixture right now. I care about 

7 the ballast. And when you get right down to it, 

8 it's the ballast that is having to be replaced, 

9 not the fixture. So I find it a little bit 

10 disconcerting that you are saying, "Well, it's 

11 a fixture analysis, but we are only reflecting 

12 the ballast as that affects the fixture, and if 

13 the ballast life is shorter than the payback, 

14 well, that's just too bad." 

15 That's the sense I'm getting, and 

16 I'm very, very concerned about that kind of 

17 philosophy here when it shows, based on the TSD, 

18 that the ballast lifetime is 40,000 to 50,000 

19 hours. That's the numbers that I was seeing in 

20 the technical support document. That's it. 

21 That's the life based on however many hours per 

22 year. 
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1 So I am concerned because for end 

2 users, you know, if you have to replace a 

3 ballast, it's 10, 11 years, which is shorter than 

4 the median payback period as shown in the 

5 analysis. 

6 MR. KEITH COOK: Yes. I guess if we 

7 ask Steve's question, though, is, was a 

8 replacement ballast included in this cost 

9 analysis? 

10 MR. MORRIS: Yes. 

11 MR. KEITH COOK: And getting a 

12 forklift out there in case of high bay and all 

13 of the associated costs with that, for an outdoor 

14 application? 

15 MR. MORRIS: That's correct, 

16 because it -- 

17 MR. HOWLEY: I mean, the cost 

18 of -- this is Joe Howley from GE. The cost of 

19 replacing an outdoor fixture on a pole could be 

20 as high as $400, or I've seen higher prices, but 

21 you could ask the utilities, but it's extremely 

22 expensive. We also believe that this did not 
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1 take into account the extra cost of the fixtures, 

2 which would have to be bigger, perhaps extra 

3 poles, and replacement of ballasts that are very 

4 difficult to reach, and very high labor rates. 

5 So we do not even believe these 

6 paybacks are achievable. They are going to be 

7 far greater than even the paybacks shown here. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Hancock has 

9 raised his hand. Joe, you sounded good the last 

10 time you spoke. Speak clearly. 

11 MR. HANCOCK: Thank you. On these 

12 payback costs, I'm going to go back to the same 

13 topic I had before. The electronic drivers are 

14 very sensitive to surge and voltage swell. We 

15 have found that the surge protection inside the 

16 driver is woefully inadequate. 

17 And so you either have to spend 

18 significant money to put an external surge 

19 protection in or you have to be ready to replace 

20 a lot of electronic drivers in a very short 

21 period of time. In our particular service 

22 territory, we get approximately one lightning 
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1 strike per square kilometer of land per month 

2 throughout the year. And it just so happens 

3 that a lighting strike can affect up to one 

4 square kilometer of land. That is a lot of 

5 equipment that is being exposed. 

6 What kind of consideration is done 

7 in the cost analysis for surge protection? 

8 MR. MORRIS: In the LCC analysis, 

9 those costs are passed through from the 

10 engineering analysis. So there is no 

11 additional cost per se in the LCC analysis that 

12 MR. HANCOCK: And for us we would 

13 need to spec having surge protection. Core and 

14 coil, you can put a 10,000-volt surge across it 

15 and that's part of the standard, and have 

16 absolutely no effect at all. But a 10,000-volt 

17 surge will destroy electronic driver. I would 

18 think that these things, for us out of the box, 

19 they need to perform at least as well as core and 

20 coil does or be modified to be able to handle the 

21 field conditions. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: We have an 
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1 additional comment from Matthew. 

2 MR. WALKER: Yes. This is Matthew 

3 Walker from Navigant. The analysis included an 

4 approximately $20 production cost increase 

5 associated with applying an external transient 

6 protection device to an electronic ballast. So 

7 there was a price at or associated with that 

8 issue. We'd be curious if you have specific 

9 feedback on that number. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And 

11 $20 -- say it again. It was for an 

12 external -- what? 

13 MR. WALKER: It was a $20 cost adder 

14 for external transient protection for an 

15 electronic ballast. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to pursue 

17 this for a little bit here. Chacko first, and 

18 then I'm coming to John. 

19 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips. 

20 I think that $20 surge protector will not protect 

21 that ballast or driver for 10 kV. 

22 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 
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1 MR. OOMMEN: I'll make that 

2 statement. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. John. 

4 MR. GREEN: John Green, Eaton 

5 Cooper Lighting. I was wondering what life 

6 expectancy you put on the surge suppression 

7 device, because once you experience a couple of 

8 lightning strikes that device essentially 

9 self-sacrifices and has to be replaced. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

11 Tom Eckman. 

12 MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I just want to 

13 cycle back to the maintenance cost of replacing 

14 the ballast. You can correct me, but my 

15 presumption is that's an incremental cost 

16 ballast replacement, because there was a ballast 

17 there to begin with with the baseline fixture. 

18 So if you've got to bring a truck or a lift or 

19 something out to replace it, it is the 

20 incremental cost of doing that if it's different 

21 than the baseline case. Is that correct? 

22 MR. MORRIS: Yes. 
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1 MR. ECKMAN: So if the lifetime is 

2 shorter, you've got to do it more often, or if 

3 it's heavier, you've got to deal with a different 

4 lift or something like that. But that's how it 

5 is priced out. 

6 MR. MORRIS: That's correct. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike. I'm coming 

8 back to you, Steve. 

9 MR. STEVENS: Yes. My question is, 

10 is there any detail that we can see of these 

11 calculations and the assumptions that were made? 

12 I mean, all of these questions I think are asking 

13 the same thing, like, what's the cost of energy 

14 that was used? What is the maintenance cost 

15 that was used? 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer. 

17 MR. STEVENS: Is that available?

18 MR. MYER: Michael Myer, Pacific 

19 Northwest National Laboratory. Well, there's 

20 two data points. In addition to the NOPR, there 

21 is a technical support document which has been 

22 referenced where we do provide a fair amount of 
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1 data and values, as well as there is models, 

2 electronic ones, that are based on -- or that in 

3 Microsoft Excel that are also in the record, and 

4 so you can really walk through them. 

5 If you want to look at the 30-year 

6 projections of electricity, those are in there. 

7 You know, all the inputs are in one place, 

8 usually in both, but for the most part at least 

9 one place for sure. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So can we 

11 comment to that detail? Okay. 

12 Michael, go ahead. 

13 MR. MYER: I do have a question 

14 regarding the gentleman from Cooper about the 

15 life of surge protection. So if you could, in 

16 your comments, provide more background on how 

17 many times it can be struck before it is done 

18 being sacrificed, or any other type of failure 

19 distributions that we should consider, and what 

20 is the typical rating you use in your 

21 calculations. Our inputs are as good as yours. 

22 Our inputs are only better when you provide more 
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1 data. Thank you. 

2 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

3 Boesenberg, NEMA. I have taken a note for that. 

4 We will include that in our comments. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Alex. 

6 Louis. 

7 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 

8 NEEA. 

9 MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, Louis. I 

10 want to finish up with the industry comments. 

11 MR. STARR: Okay. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: So let's let Doug go 

13 first, and then I'll come back to you. 

14 MR. YATES: Thank you. Doug Yates, 

15 Musco. I just, again, want to speak 

16 specifically to the above 1,000 watt. In the 

17 savings here it shows either a two-year or a 

18 three-year payback whether you use an indoor or 

19 outdoor. And that is based upon 4- to 7,000 

20 hours of usage, whatever you are looking at. 

21 We went through and did a similar 

22 payback analysis using the DOE information. 
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1 When we look at sports lighting, again, back to 

2 its only, in DOE's world, 350 hours a year, and 

3 using that number -- we had to make some 

4 assumptions because, as I've stated here or 

5 we've stated earlier, there are no pulse-start 

6 lamps or ballasts available. So we had to do 

7 scaling as well, like you did. So we've already 

8 covered that topic. 

9 When we did that, using the 350 

10 hours, it took the payback out to almost 31 

11 years. And so, you know, you've already 

12 commented that the life of the system is 25. So 

13 that doesn't make sense. 

14 Now, we also have several hundred 

15 thousand fixtures that we monitor and control 

16 with our controlling system, and we have data 

17 that we will provide in our written comments that 

18 even that 350 hours is high. We have very good 

19 statistics that says it's more like 280 hours a 

20 year on 1,500-watt systems, so that drives it out 

21 to almost 40 years for the payback. 

22 So, again, I just want to state that 
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1 above 1,000 watts, for another set of reasons, 

2 just does not seem to apply for what we're doing 

3 here. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis. 

5 MR. YATES: Thank you. 

6 MR. STARR: Just to follow up, I 

7 know that DOE had used $20 for the transient 

8 suppression, or I guess it's transient 

9 multi-suppression device for the thing, and I 

10 guess Philips mentioned that $20 didn't seem 

11 like a reasonable number. Do you have a 

12 reasonable number, or is there -- 

13 MR. OOMMEN: It may be more like 

14 $50. 

15 MR. STARR: Fifty, okay. 

16 MR. OOMMEN: I mean, you know, 

17 because it talks about -- 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Start from the 

19 beginning. More like how many dollars? 

20 MR. OOMMEN: More like $50. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 MR. OOMMEN: Yes. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Chacko 

2 speaking. Keep going. 

3 MR. OOMMEN: And also, something 

4 that you had realized, that if you really want 

5 a 10 kV pulse rating, lightning strike rating, 

6 we don't have such a device right now. Okay. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Back to Steve 

8 Rosenstock, who has some additional comments. 

9 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. I'm going to 

10 go to a new comment here about the life-cycle 

11 cost analysis. The first one -- well, someone 

12 else can talk about the 150 watt with EL4, but 

13 I want to focus on the -- the subgroup analysis, 

14 and I'm just going to take one example. 

15 Table VI, 21, which is the 250-watt 

16 metal halide fixtures outdoor, LCC and payback 

17 results. Looking at these results as shown, it 

18 is broken out for utilities, transportation 

19 facility owners, and warehouse owners. And the 

20 reason I am concerned, it basically shows you're 

21 using the same technology, the same hours, same 

22 average savings, same median payback, same 
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1 customers with net costs and net benefits. 

2 There is an issue here, and the issue 

3 is this analysis assumes that the utilities and 

4 facility owners and the warehouse owners will be 

5 paying the exact same cost of electricity. 

6 That's never the case. 

7 The utility, for the outdoor 

8 fixtures and indoor fixtures, the rate per 

9 kilowatt hour is always going to be less. They 

10 are paying a wholesale rate. The other 

11 customers are paying the retail rate. 

12 Now, granted, most of these, 

13 especially with the outdoors, they are on at 

14 night and time-use rates are going to be lower. 

15 But, still, the utility costs are going to be 

16 probably anywhere from 30 to 60 percent lower 

17 than what the facility owners, the warehouse 

18 owners, are going to pay for the electricity. 

19 Therefore, the median payback 

20 period is not going to be 14 years. It is 

21 probably going to be more like 20 or 25 years for 

22 the utilities owning these type of light 
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1 fixtures. 

2 I am going to file comments to this, 

3 but, again, I think it's very significant in 

4 terms of subgroup analysis. It's a very 

5 significant change that has to be made to do the 

6 proper subgroup analysis. 

7 Thank you very much. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank 

9 you. That's useful. 

10 Now, I think -- Joanna? 

11 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just a 

12 couple of questions related to some of the LCC 

13 results. Could you explain why the analysis 

14 seems to show that electronic ballasts, or the 

15 EL3 and 4 associated with electronic levels, are 

16 more cost effective for outdoor applications 

17 than for indoor applications? 

18 MR. MORRIS: Yes. It's a 

19 combination of operating hours, markups, which 

20 are different for indoor versus outdoor 

21 fixtures, component lifetimes, and electricity 

22 prices and the electricity price trend. 
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1 The electricity prices and the price 

2 trends, that's kind of the biggest player in this 

3 equation. Outdoor fixtures have a lower 

4 electricity price than the indoor fixtures, and 

5 that's because outdoor fixtures use only outdoor 

6 sector electricity prices, whereas indoor 

7 fixtures use a combination of industrial and 

8 commercial sector electricity prices. 

9 MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer 

10 again. So I understand I think what you're 

11 saying about why outdoor electricity prices are 

12 lower, but wouldn't that suggest that the 

13 savings are lower -- 

14 MR. MORRIS: Less than, yes. 

15 MS. MAUER: -- for outdoor 

16 applications? 

17 Well, if I could just point out kind 

18 of one other place where we had a question. In 

19 looking at the LCC tables and the technical 

20 support document, again, so looking at wattage 

21 levels for which DOE evaluated electronic 

22 ballasts, when you go from EL2 to EL3, it looks 
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1 like for indoor fixtures the discounted 

2 operating cost increases going from EL2 to EL3, 

3 while for outdoor fixtures the discounted 

4 operating cost decreases as we would kind of 

5 generally expect going from EL2 to EL3. And I 

6 was wondering if you have an explanation for kind 

7 of why there is a difference between indoor and 

8 outdoor fixtures. 

9 MR. MORRIS: This is slightly off 

10 the cuff, but consider that the difference 

11 between EL2 and EL3 is the difference between 

12 magnetic and electronic ballasts. Electronic 

13 ballasts have a shorter lifetime, a shorter 

14 assumed lifetime, than magnetic ballasts. And 

15 because of the assumptions about operating 

16 hours, which I guess indirectly or directly 

17 affects how long a magnetic or electronic 

18 ballast will last for. 

19 There are some kind of unique 

20 characteristics when you dive into the depths of 

21 the LCC model where you end up having to replace 

22 an additional electronic ballast during the 
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1 lifetime of a given fixture or you reach kind of 

2 a breaking point where you will have to install 

3 another magnetic ballast during that same 

4 lifetime. 

5 So I can't give you a good answer 

6 right now, but there's a series of complex 

7 interactions deep in the model that create these 

8 behaviors. 

9 MS. MAUER: Okay. This is Joanna 

10 again. I can go back and look, but I thought the 

11 operating hours were pretty similar for indoor 

12 and outdoor fixtures. So I wasn't -- 

13 MR. MORRIS: They are pretty close. 

14 MS. MAUER: It didn't seem like that 

15 was kind of a big driver in the outcome. 

16 MR. MORRIS: Indoor -- for all of 

17 the equipment classes less than the 1,000-watt 

18 equipment class, the indoor operating hours are 

19 less -- about 200 hours, 300 hours, less than the 

20 operating hours in the outdoor sector -- 

21 MS. MAUER: Okay. 

22 MR. MORRIS: -- for outdoor 
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1 fixtures. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to final 

3 comments on this life-cycle cost table here. 

4 Additional thoughts, comments? Matthew? 

5 MR. WALKER: Yes. I just needed to 

6 ask one clarification question for what you had 

7 said from Philips on the transient protection 

8 device. You had estimated a $50 price. Would 

9 that be the price that you pay for the device? 

10 And then I think I heard you mention at the end 

11 that that device wouldn't even have a 10 kV 

12 protection rating. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Please get the 

14 microphone. 

15 MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips. 

16 Yes, You know, right now we are trying to compare 

17 magnetic ballasts with electronic ballasts with 

18 additional protection. The magnetic ballast, 

19 like somebody said before, it's inherently 

20 protected at least maybe for several strikes for 

21 10 kV applications. Okay? 

22 For electronics, you had to use 
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1 built-in or you had to have additional networks 

2 to do so. And even there the failure of the MOVs 

3 are -- it just opens up after a couple of shots. 

4 So there the protection is gone after two times. 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

6 MR. HOWLEY: So for the analysis you 

7 have to figure replacing that much more often 

8 than you would with electromagnetic. That's 

9 not factored into the life cycle. Since these 

10 are outdoors, and a lot of them are high up on 

11 poles, you have to figure, what will it cost for 

12 a utility -- and the utilities haven't commented 

13 on this, but I wish someone would. 

14 What does it cost to send a truck 

15 out, send one or two guys out there, to replace 

16 something high up in a fixture? And this is not 

17 a trivial cost, I imagine. And this is not 

18 figured into the life-cycle analysis either. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, go ahead. 

20 MR. STEVENS: I mean, obviously, 

21 Joe, it varies utility to utility. But in our 

22 case, it would be, you know, $125, $150, just to 
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1 send the trucks out. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: To replace a -- 

3 MR. STEVENS: Yes, this is just 

4 sending the manpower out, the labor out. And 

5 then, obviously, buying the device would be 

6 extra. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

8 MR. MEYER: Mike Myer. When you 

9 say "manpower," you -- 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael, you're not 

11 on. Leave that thing on, okay? 

12 MR. MEYER: I'm trying. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks. 

14 MR. MEYER: Michael Myer, Pacific 

15 Northwest National Laboratory. The gentleman 

16 from Georgia Power, you said -- I'm 

17 paraphrasing -- $100 to $150, or give or take. 

18 And Mr. Howley from GE keeps saying equipment. 

19 Is that -- when you say "manpower," is that just 

20 one or two persons, or is that trucks, all-in 

21 inclusive estimate, trucks, flaggers, 

22 everything? I mean, that's 
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1 ultimately -- because we do actually include 

2 some equipment costs. 

3 As Mr. Howley has suggested, there 

4 is actually some equipment rental, and we do vary 

5 it by -- labor costs do go up as the wattage 

6 increases. Understandably, it costs more to 

7 replace 1,000 watts than a 75-watt because you 

8 have to hire a truck, et cetera. But I would 

9 love to get your breakdown of the numbers, you 

10 know, whether you do it now or in written 

11 comments. 

12 But what breaks down -- and also 

13 percentages, not absolutes, but if we can scale 

14 it up and say, "Okay. Well, half that cost is 

15 really the equipment, and half of it is labor," 

16 or whatever -- vice versa. If you could 

17 elaborate on that, that would be super helpful. 

18 MR. STEVENS: Okay. I'd be glad 

19 to. Off the top of my head, I don't know the 

20 answers. When I was answering the 150, I was 

21 referring to, you know, the two people on the 

22 truck and the truck itself. Okay? But I was 
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1 not including whatever we had to buy, if it was 

2 a surge protection device or if it was a lighting 

3 fixture or whatever. I wasn't including the 

4 material. 

5 Now, you will get a wide range of, 

6 you know, opinions from utilities on their labor 

7 because they calculate it differently. We 

8 calculate by trip charge, and that's just taking 

9 them all in, you know, what we pay for all trips. 

10 Obviously, there is -- when you mention flagging 

11 traffic, that costs a lot more. 

12 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

13 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock 

14 EEI. Yes. I was going to say for -- I'm sure 

15 for certain utilities like Con Ed in New York and 

16 Commonwealth Edison in Chicago, especially 

17 those -- if they're in urban areas where they 

18 have to do extra permitting and, you know, 

19 street-blocking, then those costs are probably 

20 double, I would say, at least what Mr. Stevens 

21 was saying. 

22 And, again, it's going to vary by 
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1 utility, and it's probably going to especially 

2 vary by urban versus suburban versus rural. 

3 Those are your -- I'll say your break points. 

4 I will try to get some of our members 

5 to chime in, but that gives you at least a 

6 starting point for what the -- probably what the 

7 range is going to be. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments on 

9 life-cycle costs. Alex. 

10 MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg, 

11 NEMA. I have made a note and I intend to include 

12 in the NEMA comments an expansion on what Mr. 

13 Oommen said. If the protector you add to an 

14 electronic ballast is only good for two hits, but 

15 the belief is a magnetic ballast can withstand 

16 10, so there's a times five -- whatever the 

17 replacement cost is for that protector, you've 

18 got to go do it five times to get the same life, 

19 in terms of surge strike, as magnetic. So I will 

20 try to expand on that. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Joanna? 

22 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. If I 
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1 could just pose one additional question about 

2 the LCC results, and it is concerning kind of the 

3 relationship between LCC savings and the portion 

4 of customers that benefit from a given level. 

5 And just as an example, so looking 

6 at the 70-watt representative unit, the LCC 

7 savings at EL3 are negative for indoor fixtures 

8 and positive for outdoor fixtures, and yet a 

9 greater portion of customers benefit from EL3 

10 for indoor fixtures than for outdoor fixtures, 

11 which seems a little counterintuitive. I don't 

12 know if that's something you took a look at. 

13 MR. MORRIS: I can't give you a 

14 response now, but we'll certainly look into it. 

15 Thank you. 

16 MS. MAUER: Okay. Thanks. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Good. We're moving 

18 on. 

19 MR. MORRIS: So when we 

20 combine -- well, we'll talk about the shipments 

21 analysis now. When we combine shipments with 

22 per unit energy use and economic specifics, we 
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1 get the results that we will talk about in the 

2 NIA, which is the National Impact Analysis, 

3 specifically national energy savings and the net 

4 present value, the monetary savings. 

5 So shipments ultimately determine 

6 the annual capital cost of installing new 

7 equipment and the age and stock of the equipment 

8 during the analysis period. This graph 

9 here -- I guess during the preliminary analysis 

10 we presented a shipment scenario with greater 

11 total shipments, represented by the upper line 

12 here. 

13 We received many comments, and in 

14 response to those comments from the -- 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: That's the slide we 

16 have in the packet. 

17 MR. MORRIS: Okay. Yes. It -- the 

18 graphic gets overlaid on it. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

20 MR. MORRIS: Sorry about that. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

22 MR. MORRIS: That's part two of this 
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1 slide. Shouldn't have done it -- 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: No, keep going. No. 

3 Just so you can explain it. 

4 MR. MORRIS: Yes. Thank you. 

5 Thank you, Doug. 

6 So we reviewed additional data and 

7 changed the estimated shipment scenarios as 

8 shown by these bottom two lines. We ran two sets 

9 of shipment scenarios, in general, low shipment 

10 and high shipment scenarios, to give some 

11 sensitivity to the possible effects of different 

12 shipments. 

13 So you'll notice also that the trend 

14 is the same as in the preliminary analysis, and 

15 that the high and low shipment scenarios are both 

16 declining substantially. 

17 The second graphic here is just an 

18 illustration of the 70-watt equipment class. 

19 This is just base case shipments, assuming no new 

20 standards. Again, it just shows a sharp 

21 decline, and you'll also notice that the indoor 

22 fixtures are a lot less than the outdoor 
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1 fixtures, in the neighborhood of 30 percent of 

2 what the outdoor shipments make up for. 

3 Any comments about the shipments 

4 analysis in general? 

5 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex? 

6 MR. BOESENBERG: Ales Boesenberg, 

7 NEMA. Maybe I missed it, and I'll surely feel 

8 stupid, but we were talking about analysis of 

9 shipments earlier. And there was an 

10 estimation, as I recall, the DOE said that 

11 shipments would return to 2006 levels by 2040. 

12 This looks like you agree with our analysis that 

13 shipments are declining, so I'm not -- which is 

14 which? Am I looking at the wrong one? 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael, can you -- 

16 MR. MYER: Michael Meyer, Pacific 

17 Northwest National Laboratory. I actually am 

18 curious. I've heard the comment from other 

19 people as well about this 2006 number, and I've 

20 actually looked for a couple of places. So it's 

21 a clarification we'll be reviewing to see a 

22 return. 
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1 I think there is some benchmarking 

2 using 2006 as a benchmark. But at this time, I 

3 can't find the exact reference that has been 

4 referred to. At this point, this is the first 

5 time we are showing a shipment slide, but we have 

6 been listening to -- from the comments we 

7 received both in the preliminary analysis for 

8 metal halide, as well as the HID interim 

9 analysis, that it's a declining technology. 

10 But as I said, we did use prior years 

11 as benchmarking for different reasons, 

12 correlations of technologies, those type 

13 things. But we will look to see if we can -- if 

14 there is a clarification that needs to be made. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, did you all 

16 provide shipments data that follow this pathway? 

17 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

18 Boesenberg from NEMA. I'm referring to the 

19 Slide 15 in our presentation at the beginning of 

20 the day. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. 

22 MR. MYER: Mike Myer. Yes. It 
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1 says here they did provide some slides. 

2 Actually, if we could discuss those real fast. 

3 I guess a question I had regarding Slide 15 from 

4 NEMA's presentation, in the lower left-hand 

5 quadrant, total shipments -- and since we've 

6 talked about this is a ballast versus fixture, 

7 et cetera. 

8 Can you roughly estimate how many of 

9 those ballasts are going to new fixtures versus 

10 how many are stand-alone ballasts going to 

11 replace existing fixtures in the field, so they 

12 are going into a shell rather than rolling off 

13 the assembly line in a new fixture? 

14 MR. BOESENBERG: When I asked our 

15 business office that question, he told me that 

16 the amount of replacement ballast was 

17 negligible, and it did not overly change the 

18 curve. 

19 MR. MYER: Okay. And then, if I 

20 could ask one other question for industry, 

21 again, looking at these graphs. We keep talking 

22 about new fixtures, and then we have also had 
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1 this analogy of fixtures destroyed by Superstorm 

2 Sandy or some other reason. Could industry 

3 comment on how many new fixtures that are rolling 

4 off the life are going for new installations 

5 versus going to replace -- or new fixtures going 

6 into the field into an existing metal halide 

7 landscape? Does that make sense? 

8 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex. 

9 Your question makes sense, and I do not know the 

10 answer. I will open it up to one of my members 

11 who participates in that survey can tell those 

12 of us here if that granularity is in the survey. 

13 I suspect not. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I don't see 

15 any response that's forthcoming. Michael, are 

16 you finished with your -- 

17 MR. MYER: I'm okay at the moment. 

18 I'll step down. Thank you. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Louis. 

20 MR. STARR: Just kind of a question. 

21 If all the new fixtures are coming off the line, 

22 or all of the ballasts are going in fixtures but 
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1 they're not replacement, does that mean people 

2 don't replace the ballasts in there? Because if 

3 a ballast lasts 20 years, and they are all new 

4 ballasts and you're not replacing any, that 

5 means in 10 years they're replacing the ballasts 

6 and the fixtures. 

7 So it seems like some percentage of 

8 that would have to be -- you know, not knowing 

9 anything about light fixtures or anything, just 

10 the math to make it add up, means that someone 

11 has to be buying a replacement fixture at some 

12 point. Can you help me understand that? 

13 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

14 Boesenberg from NEMA. We do collect 

15 information of whether a ballast is sold for OEM, 

16 meaning it goes into a fixture or a replacement. 

17 And this is a good time for me to speak, as I did 

18 to Lucy during lunch. First, the DOE is going 

19 to go and look at all of the numbers, the graphs 

20 we provided, not really numbers. 

21 And bear in mind the requirements we 

22 have at NEMA to protect our members' data, not 
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1 just from public release but from being able to 

2 figure out what your competitors' numbers are, 

3 we have to protect the backwards math not only 

4 externally but internally. And because of 

5 that, sometimes we cannot -- you know, I could 

6 have given different slides today, if we did 

7 exactly what you're asking. 

8 We had to protect some of the 

9 information because when a member participates 

10 in a survey for a given product, they get the 

11 results of the survey aggregated. When there 

12 are very few responses in a given class to 

13 provide a number, sort of just one figure, it 

14 means you could backwards engineer it and know 

15 what your competitor produced. 

16 So as Ari categorized it, there is 

17 some noise in the NEMA slides I presented. And 

18 it's there for protection. So DOE are going to 

19 talk -- I gave Lucy all the list of the things 

20 we have to do to mitigate those concerns. And 

21 so they are going to talk to their team about what 

22 we can do between the two of us to provide useful 
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1 data to the rulemaking while still protecting 

2 confidentiality. 

3 So I do have that data. No, I can't 

4 show it to anybody. 

5 MR. STARR: Well, just a follow up 

6 question, if you just did straightforward math, 

7 I think that means that 10 percent of the 

8 fixtures, if people really kept them to the full 

9 life, their length, and they lasted 10,000 

10 hours, it seems like roughly 10 percent of them 

11 have to be replacement fixtures each year, 

12 just -- I mean, even if you didn't go off shipment 

13 analysis but just kind of how people typically 

14 used them, it seems like you could also kind of 

15 come up with a number, you know, knowing that 

16 some people are probably going to redesign their 

17 whole lighting system at 15 years or do something 

18 else. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: It's nice to know 

20 that you are going to work with DOE to provide 

21 the data. So I'm -- rather than speculate. 

22 Steve, a final comment before we move on. 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

2 yes, just to follow up, is that there could be 

3 that -- there are some people that warehouse 

4 things that they just buy the balance ahead of 

5 time to have them in the warehouse. So it might 

6 not be 10 percent. It might be nine or eight 

7 percent because people have some of them in the 

8 warehouse already to take care of those 

9 situations with their replacement, or to handle 

10 storms. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca. 

12 MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer, Eaton 

13 Cooper. You know, as a manufacturer, sometimes 

14 it's very difficult for us to know if that 

15 product is actually going as a replacement 

16 product or if it's for a new installation. 

17 Normally, there are only two reasons why you 

18 would have a replacement product. One is 

19 catastrophic events like Hurricane Sandy or 

20 Katrina or an option like that, or what we call 

21 knockdowns when a vehicle actually hits the car, 

22 knocks -- a car hits the pole, knocks the pole 
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1 down, and damages it. 

2 But as a manufacturer, it is very 

3 hard for us to know, unless we just went through 

4 and assumed that every time we were shipping one 

5 fixture that that was a replacement. So it is 

6 very difficult. That answer probably is better 

7 answered by our customers and utilities. 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna. 

9 MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Alex, I 

10 just wanted to make sure I understood something 

11 you said a little while ago about the NEMA 

12 shipment data, and that the shipment data 

13 ballast set -- almost all of those ballast are 

14 going to OEMs, going into new fixtures. Is that 

15 what you said, that the portion that are 

16 replacement ballasts going into existing 

17 fixtures is negligible? Is that what you said? 

18 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex. 

19 Since I am not the economist, I will try to 

20 remember how he categorized it. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: You said he didn't 

22 change the shape of the curve. 
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1 MR. BOESENBERG: The curves that we 

2 gave represent the trend is fairly consistent 

3 for OEM market. 

4 MS. MAUER: Okay. So maybe not the 

5 absolute number but the -- 

6 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes. 

7 MS. MAUER: Direction. Okay. 

8 MR. BOESENBERG: Yes. 

9 MS. MAUER: Thank you. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel. 

11 MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young, 

12 California Utilities. Just a quick question 

13 for DOE. Did you consider different rates of 

14 LED incursion -- I assume this is mostly from LED 

15 incursion -- for the different wattage bins? 

16 MR. MORRIS: Yes. Michael has a 

17 much better explanation for that than I do. 

18 MR. MYER: Yes. So based on 

19 comments that we heard in the preliminary 

20 analysis from halide, as well as the framework, 

21 and as well the HID determination rule, we 

22 received comments about conversion from metal 
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1 halide to linear fluorescent interior 

2 applications. In exterior applications, we 

3 know that not only LED but also induction and 

4 other technologies, and also even in some cases 

5 as a result of the California rule, some people 

6 actually went to high-pressure sodium instead of 

7 metal halide, as we heard in one of those public 

8 meetings as well. 

9 Each rate of decline is slightly 

10 different. That wattage -- obviously, low 

11 wattage is more attenuous for certain technology 

12 right now. We've heard this time also that -- at 

13 high wattage, especially super high wattage, 

14 right now there is probably nothing else that can 

15 compete with these metal halide. 

16 So, yes, at each wattage bin, as well 

17 as indoor and outdoor, there are different 

18 trends. There is not one consistent 

19 declination rate. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: We're moving on. 

21 MR. MORRIS: So both the national 

22 energy savings and the net present value 
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1 calculations incorporate the energy and 

2 monetary savings or losses occurring both during 

3 the 30-year analysis period, also until the end 

4 of the life of the products installed at the end 

5 of the 30 years. 

6 While no further capital cost 

7 expenditures are incurred, for example, to buy 

8 new fixtures after the 30-year analysis period, 

9 energy use characteristics and operating 

10 expenses continue until the end of life of those 

11 fixtures installed in the final year. 

12 And these graphs show -- the one on 

13 the left is national energy savings. The reason 

14 the national energy savings is increasing for 

15 the first 20 or so years is because the stock of 

16 more efficient equipment that is being affected 

17 by the standard is being installed starting in 

18 the first year of the analysis period. As the 

19 stock grows over time, the energy savings also 

20 increases. 

21 And around 20, 25 years out there, 

22 those fixtures start failing. And because 
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1 we're not replacing those fixtures in kind with 

2 more metal halide fixtures per se, you see the 

3 energy savings start to diminish. And that's 

4 kind of the same story with the NPV graph shown 

5 on the right. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. Okay. 

7 MR. MORRIS: Any comments? 

8 MR. BROOKMAN: No. 

9 MR. MORRIS: Okay. If there's no 

10 comment, I -- 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: No comment box here. 

12 Just -- yes, let's make sure questions here, if 

13 any. Mark. 

14 MR. DUFFY: Yes. Just I would like 

15 to encourage, if it hasn't been already included 

16 in the national energy savings, that to make 

17 larger ballasts, larger luminaires such as in 

18 EL2, costs a lot more up front, manufacturing 

19 costs. 

20 So carbon footprint, the energy 

21 associated with making larger objects, the 

22 energy associated with shipping larger objects, 
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1 and that sort of thing, should be factored into 

2 that national energy savings, because it may not 

3 make much sense to save a very small amount over 

4 the use of the product if you are spending a whole 

5 bunch up front. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

7 MR. MORRIS: Thank you. I'm going 

8 to turn it over to Hayden Cook to talk about the 

9 manufacturer impact analysis. 

10 MR. COOK: Hi. My name is Hayden 

11 Cook with Navigant Consulting. I will be 

12 discussing the manufacturer impact analysis or 

13 MIA that was conducted for this NOPR. The MIA 

14 slides present three things. First, they 

15 present an overview of how the MIA was conducted. 

16 Second, they briefly discuss the manufacturer 

17 impacts of the proposed standards. And, third, 

18 they introduce the MIA topics DOE is seeking 

19 comment on. 

20 The main purpose of the MIA is to 

21 assess the impacts of standards of manufacturers 

22 of metal halide ballasts in fixtures. A second 
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1 purpose is to identify and estimate the impacts 

2 of manufacturer subgroups. 

3 In the upcoming slides, I'll discuss 

4 the impacts of standards on the small business 

5 manufacturer subgroup. The final portion of 

6 the MIA involves a discussion of direct 

7 employment manufacturing capacity and other 

8 federal regulations that impact the same 

9 manufacturers around the compliance date for 

10 this rulemaking. 

11 The main tool that DOE uses to 

12 evaluate the impacts of standards on 

13 manufacturers is a discounted cashflow model 

14 called the Government Regulatory Impact Model or 

15 GRIM. The major output from the cashflow model 

16 is industry net present value or INPV, a metric 

17 used to represent the quantitative impacts of 

18 new and amended standards on manufacturers of 

19 the covered equipment. 

20 For the MIA, DOE also conducted 

21 interviews with manufacturers to refine the 

22 inputs to the cashflow model and to understand 
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1 the qualitative impacts of standards. 

2 This slide shows the basic structure 

3 of the MIA process. It takes place in three 

4 different phases. In the first phase, which 

5 occurred during the preliminary analysis, DOE 

6 uses publicly available information, such as 

7 manufacturers' annual reports, to develop a 

8 profile of industry. 

9 Phases 2 and 3 were conducted as part 

10 of the NOPR analysis. In Phase 2, DOE developed 

11 the cashflow spreadsheets that are used to 

12 estimate the impacts on industry, and the 

13 interview guide that was used to gather 

14 information from manufacturers during those 

15 manufacturer interviews. 

16 In Phase 3, DOE conducted interviews 

17 with manufacturers and used the information to 

18 further develop the analyses and to finalize the 

19 inputs. 

20 Switching from MIA methodology to 

21 the specifics about this rulemaking, this slide 

22 presents the key issues that we learned from 
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1 manufacturers concerning metal halide ballasts 

2 and fixtures. First, manufacturers expressed 

3 concern over their ability to recoup investments 

4 made in order to comply with standards. 

5 Increasing market penetration from 

6 emerging technologies, such as solid state 

7 lighting, has downsized the metal halide market 

8 already, and any standards that increase the 

9 costs of metal halide fixtures to customers will 

10 narrow the gap in price between metal halide and 

11 solid state lighting. 

12 This could potentially cause 

13 customers to increasingly favor solid state 

14 lighting technologies, thereby increasing the 

15 risk of stranding investments made to comply 

16 with metal halide energy conservation 

17 standards, as has been brought up previously. 

18 The second key issue focuses on 

19 using a ballast-only efficiency metric as the 

20 metric for this rulemaking. Some manufacturers 

21 stated that selecting a ballast-only efficiency 

22 metric does not allow standards to capture 
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1 energy savings from the lamps and the fixtures 

2 themselves. 

3 Conversely, other manufacturers did 

4 not favor a lamp and ballast efficiency metric, 

5 because it would give a competitive advantage to 

6 those manufacturers who produce both metal 

7 halide ballasts and lamps. Also, several 

8 manufacturers oppose the use of a fixture 

9 efficiency metric. 

10 Lastly, manufacturers believe 

11 updated standards should maintain an existing 

12 150-watt exemption for specific fixtures. The 

13 manufacturer stated that this exemption creates 

14 energy savings by pushing customers of the more 

15 expensive 175-watt fixtures to the less 

16 expensive 150-watt fixtures. 

17 The manufacturer stated that 

18 customers would revert back to the 175-watt 

19 fixtures if the exemptions were not maintained 

20 due to a significant price increase caused by 

21 bringing the 150-watt fixtures into compliance. 

22 And this could possibly nullify any energy 
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1 savings created by regulating the 150-watt 

2 fixtures themselves. 

3 This slide presents an overview of 

4 the shipment and markup scenarios DOE ran for the 

5 MIA. The shipments scenario was previously 

6 described in the shipments analysis. DOE 

7 analyzed four different scenarios for metal 

8 halides using a flat or preservation of 

9 operating profit markup scenario as well as the 

10 high or low shipment scenario. 

11 Each of the four scenarios analyzed 

12 used one shipment scenario and one markup 

13 scenario. 

14 For the low shipment scenario, DOE 

15 projected a significant decline in shipments 

16 over the analysis period while in the high 

17 shipment scenario, the decline of shipments is 

18 less severe. 

19 For the flat markup scenario, 

20 manufacturers are in the same markup percentage 

21 as they do in the base case on any increase in 

22 the NPC due to standards. For the preservation 
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1 of operating profit markup scenario, 

2 manufacturers earn the same operating profit in 

3 absolute dollars in the base case as they do in 

4 the standards case in the year after the standard 

5 goes into effect. 

6 DOE estimates the least severe 

7 scenario for manufacturers by using the high 

8 shipment scenario and in combination with the 

9 flat markup scenario. In this scenario, there 

10 are more shipments to spread out the 

11 manufacturer conversion costs over throughout 

12 the analysis period, and manufacturers are able 

13 to fully pass on to their customers the 

14 additional costs due to standards. 

15 To estimate the more severe scenario 

16 for manufacturers, DOE used the low shipment 

17 scenario in conjunction with the preservation of 

18 operating profit markup scenario. In this 

19 scenario, there are fewer shipments to spread 

20 the manufacturer conversion costs over 

21 throughout the analysis period, and 

22 manufacturers are not able to fully pass through 
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1 the additional costs due to standards. 

2 So getting to the INPV results, the 

3 markup and shipment scenarios described in the 

4 previous slide yield the metal halide ballast 

5 manufacturer INPV impact shown here in this 

6 slide, and these are separate from the fixture 

7 manufacturers, which will be on the next slide. 

8 The first table represents the least 

9 severe impact to metal halide ballast 

10 manufacturers, and the second table represents 

11 the most severe impacts to metal halide 

12 manufacturer -- sorry, metal halide ballast 

13 manufacturers. And, again, the TSL highlighted 

14 in yellow, TSL 3, is the one that is being 

15 proposed for this NOPR. 

16 This next slide presents the INPV 

17 impacts on metal halide fixture manufacturers. 

18 Again, the first table represents the least 

19 severe impact to manufacturer -- to metal halide 

20 fixture manufacturers, and the second table 

21 represents the more severe impact to metal 

22 halide fixture manufacturers. Again, TSL 3 is 
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1 the TSL that is being proposed for this NOPR 

2 period. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith? 

4 MR. KEITH COOK: Yes, I think the 

5 one thing we are missing here, though, is the 

6 impact on the lamp manufacturers, because as 

7 these costs go up there is going to be the 

8 conversion to LEDs like we talked about before, 

9 so their volume is going to go down. So there 

10 is a cost definitely associated with that as far 

11 as the lamp manufacturer is concerned. 

12 So if this is a fixture rulemaking, 

13 we need to account for those lamps as well. 

14 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Okay. So you're 

15 talking about the decline in shipments due to a 

16 standard? It would also result in the decline 

17 of lamps? 

18 MR. KEITH COOK: Correct. The 

19 other thing is, I -- Lucy has heard me ask this 

20 one before. But why do we go through this 

21 exercise? Because as far as I know, there is no 

22 criteria that is established for pass or fail. 
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1 And so we do this exercise, spend a lot of time 

2 on it, and so what? 

3 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Well, my 

4 understanding is that this is one of the criteria 

5 that DOE uses to select -- to ultimately select, 

6 propose, and adopt a standard. However, there 

7 is no magic number that is used that says this 

8 is something that is unacceptable or acceptable. 

9 But it is a criteria that is used. 

10 I imagine it as a weight for and 

11 against. And as the INPV impacts get larger, 

12 that weight becomes larger, and then, therefore, 

13 it's another criteria that is used for a reason 

14 why a standard shouldn't be selected. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucy? 

16 MS. DeBUTTS: This is -- the answer 

17 is basically on Slide 11. It's one of the 

18 factors that we have to assess in order to make 

19 considerations for energy conservation 

20 standards. And that's in U.S. Code, so we have 

21 to do this. 

22 MR. KEITH COOK: Yes. I 
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1 understood. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

3 MR. HOWLEY: I'm just adding an 

4 observation that as the TSLs get higher and 

5 higher, therefore, increasing the costs of these 

6 fixtures more and more, it almost assures that 

7 you are going to be in the low shipment scenario 

8 because it is going to push this market down 

9 faster and faster. 

10 Where you're at now with TLC -- TSL 

11 3 almost certainly we are talking about a low 

12 shipment kind of scenario here, which is 

13 negative for both the fixture and the ballast 

14 manufacturers. So you may ask, why would 

15 manufacturers invest in this area if even the DOE 

16 believes there is going to be a negative return 

17 on investment? Most of us are for-profit 

18 companies. 

19 MR. HAYDEN COOK: I want to make a 

20 point of clarification. So the negative that 

21 you are talking about I think is -- the change 

22 in INPV percentage is negative. So that's 
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1 comparing that TSL case to the base case, so what 

2 you would have seen with no standard compared to 

3 what is happening with a standard. So that 

4 industry value is shrinking by three percent. 

5 However, the industry value is not 

6 negative. It is simply a delta from a 

7 no-standard case. So there is still positive 

8 industry net present value at TSL 3, which is 

9 represented by that top line. However, the 

10 delta between TSL 3 and the base case is 

11 negative. So there is still a profit to be made. 

12 It's just a smaller profit than in the base case. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

15 EEI. I'm also looking at the life-cycle cost 

16 analysis. And basically whenever you are going 

17 up to TSL 5, that is -- in a lot of the cases, 

18 that is where you are seeing a lot of the highest 

19 median paybacks for the end use customers, in a 

20 lot of the cases, in a lot of scenarios shown in 

21 the life-cycle cost, and in a lot of the cases 

22 higher life-cycle costs, higher installed 
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1 costs. 

2 I'm just kind of curious -- and, 

3 again, just looking at this high shipment flat 

4 markup scenario case, going from three to five, 

5 I'm just really surprised that the net present 

6 value increases when all of the life-cycle 

7 economics say that the customer is not going to 

8 buy at TSL 5. 

9 I'm just trying to connect the dots 

10 here. And if the -- if the economics are so bad 

11 for the end use customer, both on a payback and 

12 life-cycle cost basis, where they are going to 

13 be encouraged not to buy the fixture made at TSL 

14 5, how can the manufacturing net present value 

15 increase when the life-cycle cost numbers are so 

16 terrible? 

17 MR. HAYDEN COOK: I can respond to 

18 that. So I would agree with you as you go to the 

19 higher TSLs it is less likely that you are in the 

20 scenario that is the least severe to 

21 manufacturer impact. So there is a kind of -- I 

22 would call it a Cone of Uncertainty that as you 
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1 get to higher TSLs the differences become -- you 

2 know, the best case scenario becomes better, and 

3 the worst case scenario becomes worse. 

4 And as you move to the higher TSLs, 

5 it is more likely that you are in the worst-case 

6 scenario than you are in the best case scenario. 

7 But because it is very complicated and each 

8 manufacturer will respond to how they markup 

9 their prices differently, we present a range of 

10 options, and this is an upper bound and a lower 

11 bound. But I would agree with you that as you 

12 move to the higher TSLs the lower bound becomes 

13 the more likely scenario. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

15 MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have 

16 additional comments or questions on these two 

17 MIA tables? Yes, Daniel. 

18 MR. YOUNG: I have a question. So 

19 I think in the beginning, or previously I had 

20 thought that the manufacturers were concerned, 

21 as is being explained here, that higher 

22 standards would lead to more expensive metal 
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1 halides, and LEDs would, therefore, penetrate 

2 the market faster. I think earlier today it was 

3 suggested that the opposite might be true, and 

4 in fact by diverting resources away from LED 

5 development, if that were to happen, then 

6 perhaps it would actually slow the incursion of 

7 LEDs. 

8 So I'm wondering if industry has an 

9 updated view on that, or if it's just within the 

10 Cone of Uncertainty maybe? 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

12 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

13 Boesenberg from NEMA. I think this goes back to 

14 my previous comment about companies will make 

15 their individual business decisions. Some 

16 companies are just going to leave the market. 

17 And that means what market is left to the 

18 companies who decide to continue and make that 

19 investment will theoretically have a little 

20 bigger market share now available. 

21 But at the same time, the long-range 

22 view is LED. And we -- all our companies, as far 
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1 as I know, want to be a player in the future, and 

2 that's LED. So it's -- that's the diversion of 

3 resources. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl. 

5 MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, 

6 Acuity Brands. Hayden, I just want a 

7 clarification. When we were talking about the 

8 most severe scenario and you made the comment 

9 that there is still profit to be made, but it 

10 would be smaller than the base case of no rule, 

11 so from my business perspective that is a 

12 negative implication on the manufacturer, and 

13 certainly not what shareholders are looking for 

14 from publicly traded companies. 

15 So I agree with Keith that I think 

16 of the scenarios that you have talked about where 

17 we are talking about low shipment, the data we 

18 provided in the manufacturer impact interviews 

19 showed a drastically declining market. It is 

20 only getting smaller, and, you know, even though 

21 there is profit numbers shown there, I think 

22 that's a negative impact when it is less profit 
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1 than what the no-rule scenario provides. 

2 So I just wanted to make sure I was 

3 clear on your comment that -- 

4 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Yes. I agree 

5 with that. I think I was addressing the comment 

6 that -- of -- I'm sorry, I forgot if Keith made 

7 this or not. He said that, "Why would you stay 

8 in business or" -- 

9 MS. ENGLISH: Yes. 

10 MR. HAYDEN COOK: -- "where does the 

11 business make profit?" You would still -- my 

12 point was I just referring -- 

13 MS. ENGLISH: Well, if you're in a 

14 market where your profits are continually 

15 declining, you are not going to be in business. 

16 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Okay. 

17 MS. ENGLISH: The other part of this 

18 is a question, because I have not looked at that 

19 level of detail in the additional documents from 

20 DOE, but the conversion costs on the fixture 

21 manufacturers seem surprisingly low. And I'm 

22 wondering if it includes the fact that we have 
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1 to make the investments at this TSL 3 level 

2 related to the redesign of the fixtures and new 

3 capital equipment. 

4 It appears to me that it does not 

5 include those conversion costs -- including 

6 those conversion costs with the compliance that 

7 we spoke about early on in -- before the 

8 introductory remarks we made. So, you know, 

9 marketing conversion costs, phase-in/phase-out 

10 of products, IT systems, in addition to -- 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: There were 10 or so 

12 bulleted points. 

13 MS. ENGLISH: -- product redesign. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

15 MS. ENGLISH: Yes. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes. 

17 MS. ENGLISH: Did this include 

18 those costs on fixture manufacturers or not? 

19 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Yes, it did. 

20 MS. ENGLISH: Okay. Well, they are 

21 surprisingly low. So we'll have to take a look 

22 at the data on that. 
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1 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Okay. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Final 

3 comments on these two MIA tables before we move 

4 on? 

5 (No response.) 

6 MR. HAYDEN COOK: One criteria that 

7 DOE looks at is the impacts of standards on small 

8 businesses. To be considered a metal halide 

9 ballast small business manufacturer, the Small 

10 Business Administration, or SBA, sets a limit of 

11 750 total employees or less for those 

12 manufacturers, and SBA sets a limit of 500 total 

13 employees or less for metal halide fixture 

14 manufacturers. 

15 DOE uses publicly available 

16 information to identify potential small 

17 business manufacturers, such as SBA's database, 

18 DOE's compliance certification management 

19 system, trade association lists, and websites, 

20 Hoovers, and Dun & Bradstreet. 

21 Also, during manufacturer 

22 interviews, DOE asks manufacturers if they are 
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1 aware of any potential small businesses that 

2 existed in their market. After refining the 

3 list of potential small businesses based on 

4 DOE's initial research, DOE directly contacted 

5 the remaining potential small business 

6 manufacturers to determine if they met SBA's 

7 definition of a small business manufacturer. 

8 DOE found five metal halide ballast 

9 manufacturers, small business manufacturers, 

10 and approximately 54 metal halide fixture small 

11 business manufacturers. Based on interviews 

12 with -- based on interviews and a review of 

13 products offered by these five small ballast 

14 manufacturers, DOE determined that three of the 

15 five small ballast manufacturers only offered 

16 high efficient electronic ballasts, which 

17 currently meet the standards being proposed in 

18 the NOPR, and, therefore, they would not be 

19 affected by this rulemaking. 

20 The remaining two small business 

21 ballast manufacturers could be either forced to 

22 reduce the number of ballasts offered or exit the 
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1 market entirely. 

2 For small fixture manufacturers, 

3 approximately two-thirds of the 54 small fixture 

4 manufacturers primarily serve the architectural 

5 or specialty lighting markets. And based on 

6 interviews, DOE believes that these specialty 

7 lighting fixture manufacturers would be able to 

8 pass on any cost increases due to a standard. 

9 The other third of these small 

10 fixture manufacturers could be forced to either 

11 reduce the number of fixtures offered or exit the 

12 market entirely. 

13 At this time, DOE would like to 

14 request any comment on both the number of small 

15 ballast and fixture manufacturers identified, 

16 as well as the potential impact of new and 

17 amended standards that are used on those small 

18 business manufacturers. 

19 MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with 

20 Philips. I'm very surprised that during the 

21 interview you found out that the small metal 

22 halide fixture manufacturer could pass on the 
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1 costs, because in the specialty and 

2 architectural lighting areas LED is becoming 

3 extremely competitive. And so there is no way 

4 that they could pass on any costs and stay in the 

5 market. 

6 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

7 Additional comments on impacts on small ballast 

8 and fixture manufacturers? Okay. Yes, 

9 Matthew? 

10 MR. WALKER: This is Matthew Walker 

11 from Navigant. I did want to make one 

12 clarification on the fixture manufacturer 

13 conversion costs question that Cheryl had posed 

14 a couple of minutes ago. It is true that we 

15 included product redesign, capital conversion 

16 costs, when going to an electronic ballast 

17 level. That's EL3 and 4. 

18 But you were correct that the NOPR 

19 analysis, based on the magnetic modeling 

20 discussions that we had, assumed the footprint 

21 remained the same. And as a result, the fixture 

22 didn't need to be redesigned. So that's clearly 
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1 a point of disagreement from this meeting, but 

2 I did just want to clarify that. 

3 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks for 

4 clarifying. 

5 Okay. We're going to hear from 

6 Michael Myer. 

7 MR. MYER: Thank you, Hayden. 

8 Thank you, Doug, for the reintroduction. I'm 

9 Michael Myer. I'm with Pacific Northwest 

10 National Laboratory, and I'm going to do a 

11 handful more of analyses. These are what we 

12 kind of refer to as the downstream analyses. 

13 There are different ones, one of 

14 them being the LCC, which is life-cycle cost 

15 subgroup analysis. So in this analysis we look 

16 at three different groups and what the effects 

17 are on potential standards. Ideally, for 

18 criteria and for selection for this group, it is 

19 usually something that makes them an 

20 outlier -- different electricity price, 

21 different maintenance costs, different 

22 operating hours, and so on. 
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1 We selected for the 

2 three -- utilities, transportation facilities, 

3 and warehouse owners. And we -- the results are 

4 consistent in terms of trends with the 

5 life-cycle cost and payback period analysis. 

6 Yes, sir. 

7 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

8 Edison Electric Institute. A couple of quick 

9 questions. You know, before for -- I'll just 

10 say for the outdoor lighting, the payback 

11 periods and the savings were exactly the same for 

12 all three subgroups. I'll just use that as a 

13 250-watt metal halide outdoor fixture. 

14 The median payback periods, the 

15 average savings, LCCs were different because 

16 of -- maybe because of maintenance costs, but you 

17 look at the savings and the median paybacks, 

18 they're exactly the same. So I guess I'm a 

19 little -- 

20 MR. MYER: So I have the Technical 

21 Support Document here in front of me. So you 

22 said 250-watt outdoor. So in certain cases they 
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1 are similar. We did -- so, for instance, for 

2 utilities we did vary the maintenance cost, and 

3 I'll come back to the data inputs. 

4 But as you look, they are similar, 

5 but they actually are slightly different. So if 

6 you just compare -- do a like comparison between 

7 utilities, transportation facilities, and 

8 warehouse owners for the different TSLs, you'll 

9 notice that in the first two TSLs, yes, they are 

10 similar numbers, but then as you get into the 

11 later TSLs the numbers do vary slightly. 

12 In the case of both transportation 

13 facility hours and the warehouse 

14 hours -- warehouse owners, the operating hours 

15 are different than the average number used in the 

16 other analysis. However, neither of these 

17 facilities were significantly larger or lower 

18 than the average that we used. So that's one 

19 reason why they're closely related. Does that 

20 make sense? 

21 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Kind of. I guess 

22 the other thing is, especially for indoor 
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1 lighting -- well, I guess even for both, why 

2 would the maintenance costs be one and a half 

3 times "higher" than the general public? 

4 MR. MYER: So I appreciate your 

5 comment on that one. So for the -- we walked 

6 through this in the Technical Support Document. 

7 The idea with the utilities, the reason why they 

8 have more, obviously, the utilities average, 

9 say, probably less interior equipment, more 

10 exterior equipment. 

11 The idea was that they have more 

12 equipment, their asset management system is 

13 different than maybe a commercial business where 

14 if you're a commercial business you know what 

15 parking lots they are, how often they are being 

16 operated, and they are monitored, whereas more 

17 often than not utilities either -- if it's a 

18 large area of -- you know, the gentleman from 

19 Florida talked about square kilometer, so it's 

20 roadway that you may not be able to monitor as 

21 much. So the idea is that the costs are higher 

22 for one, as we just heard in this meeting as well, 
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1 possibly flaggers for -- because it's a public 

2 road versus a parking lot that you can sequester, 

3 as well as you just have more assets that may not 

4 be as managed differently. 

5 And so, therefore, you may not be 

6 able to know if you have an outage or you might 

7 have to send a person who just drives around 

8 looking for outages. 

9 We'd greatly appreciate -- you know, 

10 we've heard some discussion about maintenance 

11 costs related to the life-cycle costs, so we'd 

12 greatly appreciate any inputs. 

13 You also did make an earlier comment 

14 about utilities have lower electricity rates, 

15 and I would appreciate possibly varying that 

16 data point. You said that on average most 

17 electricity utilities are buying, I believe you 

18 said, at the wholesale rate versus -- so if you 

19 could give us any type of derating or, you know, 

20 reference to what we should be using for this 

21 analysis for utilities, we'd greatly appreciate 

22 it. 
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1 Yes, sir. 

2 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

3 Edison Electric Institute. One set of data 

4 points that you might want to use is the EIA 

5 wholesale electric data information that is -- I 

6 get an email every other week basically, and that 

7 shows in many of the market hubs what the 

8 wholesale at least a day ahead prices are. 

9 Others are hourly, but that gives at least a nice 

10 indicator in terms of it. 

11 And with other -- actually, with the 

12 transformer rulemaking, we actually kind of 

13 shared the data on an annualized basis, 

14 basically going from 2008 to 2012, what some of 

15 those numbers were. So that's on the docket on 

16 the transformer rulemaking if you look at our EEI 

17 comments, if you wanted to use some of that as 

18 historical reference. 

19 MR. MYER: Thank you for two 

20 specific places to look. 

21 If I could also ask, going back to 

22 the utility question, we have heard both from 
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1 Florida Power and Light that they have about 

2 850,000 fixtures. While the gentleman from 

3 Georgia Power is in the room, when we say 

4 "fixtures," when we hear these numbers quoted, 

5 is that just all HID? Or is that specifically 

6 metal halide? I'm just kind of trying to 

7 differentiate between the two. 

8 You know, if Georgia Power let's say 

9 had a million fixtures, is it really all metal 

10 halide, or is it a mixture of HID? And if it is 

11 a mixture, can it point us in a direction of a 

12 number for metal halide? 

13 Thank you. 

14 MR. STEVENS: This is Mike Stevens, 

15 Georgia Power. It is all HID. Okay? I'll 

16 have to look up how much -- what percentage if 

17 metal halide. I mean, if I was going to gut it, 

18 I would say 15 percent. 

19 MR. MYER: One five is what you're 

20 saying. 

21 MR. STEVENS: Yes. 

22 MR. MYER: Thank you. 
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1 MR. STEVENS: But I can get you the 

2 info. 

3 MR. MYER: Thank you. 

4 Continuing on to the employment 

5 analysis, the employment analysis is an indirect 

6 assessment. I'm sorry, it's an assessment of 

7 indirect employment. It uses a model called the 

8 IMSET model. So this is the overall change, 

9 either net positive or net negative, in 

10 employment across the country as a result of the 

11 proposed TSL. 

12 So you are seeing two years of 

13 analysis here, 2017 and 2020. And this is 

14 broken down by TSL level with the proposed TSL 

15 3 highlighted here being TSL 3. 

16 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock. 

17 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

18 EEI. So where we show low shipment and high 

19 shipment, going back to the MIA analysis, this 

20 is the low shipment, the most severe is on the 

21 left side, and the high shipments is the flat 

22 market. But I'm just trying to see if that's the 
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1 direct comparison. Is that the modeling for 

2 this that is -- you know, it's low shipment, 

3 preservation of operation, profit markup, 

4 scenario versus high shipment, flat markup 

5 scenario. Are those the two scenarios you used 

6 for this employment analysis? 

7 MR. MYER: Well, this is separate 

8 from the MIA. However, both the MIA and this 

9 analysis used the same quantity of shipments in 

10 low and high, yes. But ours is not looking 

11 at -- this, again, is not on the manufacturers. 

12 This is just on the country. But, yes, the same 

13 shipment volume per year are the same, yes. 

14 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, one thing 

15 that kind of struck me is, if I am -- again, this 

16 is a big assumption. If you are assuming, I'll 

17 say, the worst case in the low shipment scenario 

18 here, the most severe impact on the 

19 manufacturers -- again, I don't know that for a 

20 fact. I'm not sure if those are analogous or 

21 not, but I was just kind of surprised to say that 

22 if it is that scenario, low shipment, most 
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1 severe, preservation operation, profit markup, 

2 that there is more jobs created in the most 

3 severe impact in 2017 than in the least severe 

4 impact. I just find that rather surprising. 

5 I know it's indirect, but you have 

6 these manufacturers in the low shipment case 

7 being severely impacted and somehow that 

8 translates into job growth, more job growth. I 

9 have a hard time conceptually with that. These 

10 are indirect jobs, so what sector are these jobs 

11 being formed in, by the way? 

12 MR. MYER: Sure. The idea is that 

13 the operating costs -- that the savings that a 

14 site would save as a result of energy saved as 

15 a result of using more efficient equipment 

16 translates to operating cash for said company. 

17 So they could hire possibly an additional stock 

18 person, an additional accountant, and so on. 

19 So the reason why the -- also, I'd 

20 like to point out these numbers are, you know, 

21 outliers. They're on the low end of the model 

22 because we're talking across a 300 million 
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1 person country, that we are talking 76 jobs in 

2 2017. So it's on the low end of the model type 

3 thing. 

4 But this is essentially saying that 

5 if a company bought more efficient equipment, 

6 the capital that they are saving, the actual cash 

7 from -- by deferred maintenance and or 

8 electricity, whatever the inputs in the model 

9 are, that they would be able to use that cashflow 

10 for other things in their business for other 

11 jobs. 

12 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Another -- one 

13 quick follow up question. Looking at Slide 56, 

14 looking at national economics discount at seven 

15 percent, in 2017 it is still showing that net 

16 present value is negative for all of these 

17 businesses. So how are they going to invest 

18 when their net present value still hasn't gotten 

19 positive until 2020? 

20 MR. MYER: I am not going to speak 

21 off the cuff at this time, but we'll look into 

22 that for you. 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex. 

3 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

4 Boesenberg, NEMA. I guess my question is very 

5 similar to Mr. Rosenstock's. Okay. I don't 

6 own a company, but if this more efficient product 

7 allows me to cut my maintenance force, I don't 

8 see why I would then add a new accountant or a 

9 new personnel manager when I have reduced my 

10 employee base. 

11 It does seem counterintuitive, but 

12 this is one of those things I have questioned on 

13 every rulemaking. If we are getting rid of a 

14 third of the employees in the small businesses 

15 in this sector, I'm not sure where that is going 

16 to add jobs. 

17 MR. MORRIS: This is Scott Morris 

18 from Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. 

19 Keep in mind that this employment analysis 

20 specifically looks at the entire general 

21 economy, far outside of the limited scope of a 

22 utility or the immediate end user of the 
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1 equipment. It's the idea that with the money 

2 that you save in operating expenses with more 

3 efficient equipment that money can be put to 

4 different use within the general economy. Many 

5 of those uses are much more either 

6 labor-intensive than paying for electricity. 

7 And that's where job creation gets -- 

8 MR. BOESENBERG: This is -- 

9 MR. MORRIS: But, again, as Michael 

10 said, these numbers are extremely low and almost 

11 insignificant. 

12 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

13 Boesenberg. As a follow up, I guess, in other 

14 rulemakings where we have delved into this, have 

15 been more residential-oriented products. And I 

16 can sort of understand that if I save a little 

17 money on my monthly electric bill I will want to 

18 go out to eat or buy another T-shirt or 

19 something. 

20 I just -- as I already stated, this 

21 doesn't make sense from a commercial standpoint. 

22 A for-profit company, it's the shareholders 
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1 getting that benefit of the savings, not the 

2 general economy. Or am I just totally off? 

3 MR. HOWLEY: Just another reason it 

4 makes absolutely no sense at all is the -- some 

5 of these paybacks are 10 to 15 years. So if you 

6 had to buy this more expensive equipment, you are 

7 not getting all your money back for 15 years. So 

8 even the national economy is not saving anything 

9 for at least a decade. Everybody is negative by 

10 2017, so there is no jobs being added under -- 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: That was Joe, and now 

12 to Louis. 

13 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with 

14 NEEA. NEEA does a lot of stuff with market 

15 transformation. We are involved a lot, in 

16 particular with industrial customers, trying to 

17 get them to do an energy efficiency project. 

18 And what we find is that we are competing with 

19 things needing to have two -- sometimes a year 

20 payback with energy inefficiency, because they 

21 take the capital and invest it in increasing 

22 their production. 
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1 And increased production usually 

2 involves additional personnel. So I would say 

3 that's not unreasonable at all what they are 

4 trying to do there. They do not necessarily 

5 take the money. 

6 And the other thing is from an 

7 accounting standpoint, the money that stays 

8 inside the company, if you cut your operating 

9 costs, it stays inside the same pool, and it goes 

10 back in there. And some of it will be siphoned 

11 off in profit and profit share, but a lot of it 

12 gets reinvested to increasing your production. 

13 And so a lot of times that money 

14 is -- I mean, I think that's fairly reasonable, 

15 and maybe it should even be set up to a higher 

16 number than that. But, I mean, as a business, 

17 you guys -- you all run companies, if you have 

18 an extra -- if you save money on efficient 

19 lighting in your factories, where is that money 

20 going to go? Does it automatically go back to 

21 the shareholders or what -- 

22 (Simultaneous speaking.) 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl English, 

2 you're next. 

3 MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, 

4 Acuity Brands. I realize that DOE has this 

5 mysterious model that you plug in a watt and out 

6 pops a job. But I have to say that from a 

7 business standpoint, that is not how we address 

8 hiring. And the model is what the model is; I 

9 don't fully understand it. 

10 But it would be interesting to see 

11 if DOE has plans in the future because 

12 uncertainty is the biggest thing that impacts 

13 our willingness to employ. And will these 

14 models be updated related to increased costs on 

15 manufacturers such as taxes and health care? 

16 MR. MYER: I think we will look into 

17 that, and we will address some of the comments 

18 we have heard. 

19 MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments on 

20 employment analysis, this table, before we move 

21 on. Here we go. 

22 MR. MYER: Thank you, Doug. So, 
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1 finally, we move into emissions analysis and 

2 monetization of emissions. So we look at the 

3 cumulative 30-year analysis period of the 

4 emissions reductions. We specifically are 

5 looking at carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxides. 

6 We have a whole different -- number 

7 of different types of emissions, either carbon 

8 dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, nitrous 

9 oxide, methane, sulfur dioxide. And the values 

10 in the right two columns, low shipments and high 

11 shipments, are the deferred emissions by the 

12 various weights for those type of emissions, 

13 cumulative, over 30 years. 

14 Mr. Rosenstock? 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

16 EEI. I just want to say that I think for the 

17 final rule I think you are going to have to take 

18 that little EPA rule that came out last week as 

19 one possible impact on this number. That is for 

20 the new powerplant NSPS rule that came out last 

21 Friday. 

22 Next June, EPA is going to come out 
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1 with another rule on existing powerplants. 

2 That will have a dramatic impact on the CO 

 2

3 number in this -- or any other rulemaking that 

4 is coming up. 

5 Also, just a lot of the other 

6 emissions -- for example, mercury -- the mercury 

7 rule that came out last year, in 2012, basically 

8 most powerplants that emit mercury will have to 

9 reduce their mercury emissions by I think 

10 it's -- and this is existing powerplants, at 

11 least 80 percent by the year 2016. 

12 SO and NO that are under the Clean 

 2 x

13 Air Act, those emissions have been going down 

14 every year since 1990. And, again, those 

15 emissions will go down. 

16 The emissions per kilowatt hour have 

17 gone down by 75 percent over the last 20 years, 

18 and they will continue to go down. The EPA rules 

19 might accelerate it. 

20 So I note it is based on the current 

21 rules, but I think especially the combination of 

22 those rules and the upcoming rules are going to 
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1 have significant impact on the emissions per 

2 kilowatt hour. And I hope that it can be taken 

3 into account for the final rule, because next 

4 June the EPA is going to come out with a rule, 

5 and it will have a huge impact on this number. 

6 Thank you. 

7 MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from 

8 General Counsel's office. Now, I'm -- Steve, 

9 just to confirm, that's a proposed rule that EPA 

10 just proposed on Friday, right? 

11 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Last Friday was a 

12 proposed rule. They are going to finalize it 

13 next year, and then it's up to them. The 

14 effective date will be X years after that, 

15 probably within one or two years basically. 

16 MR. ALTMAN: Just to clarify, in our 

17 models, for our rulemaking we cannot take into 

18 account proposed rules. So based on the timing 

19 of that rule, we won't -- and maybe it -- correct 

20 me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we can look 

21 at EPA's NOPR in the context of this rulemaking, 

22 because ours is actually further ahead than 
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1 theirs. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, go ahead. 

3 MR. HOFMANN: Just real quick, 

4 wanted to note one of the unique things about the 

5 new source performance standards for CO, new 

 2

6 source performance standard is unusual in that 

7 as soon as a rule is proposed it is effective. 

8 It's a strange -- 

9 MR. ALTMAN: That doesn't make 

10 sense. A proposed rule is effective? It's not 

11 a final rule. 

12 MR. HOFMANN: It's not a final rule. 

13 There can still be changes in the final rule, but 

14 the emissions limits that are proposed are 

15 effective immediately on proposal. I'll submit 

16 some more information. 

17 MR. ALTMAN: Okay. We'll look at 

18 that. If that's true, that may be -- then maybe 

19 they're doing it differently than we are, but 

20 thanks. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that 

22 input. Steve? 
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1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, again, the 

2 other possibility is, again, in terms of 

3 this -- in terms of the impact, though -- again, 

4 I'd have to double check, but there can always 

5 be a scenario analysis whereby this could be 

6 before the EPA rules, and then you can have 

7 another possible outcome based on -- I'll 

8 say -- I should say -- not scenario, sensitivity 

9 analysis, where a sensitivity analysis is the 

10 new -- the rules are finalized in 2017, 2018, 

11 which is 26 out of the 30-year period, which will 

12 have an impact on these numbers, and will have 

13 an impact on your estimated monetization. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. 

15 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you. 

16 MR. MEYER: Thank you for your 

17 comments. The technical -- 

18 MR. BROOKMAN: Mark has one more. 

19 MR. MYER: Oh. 

20 MR. DUFFY: Yes. I wanted to hear 

21 the rest of that. That was very interesting 

22 inputs. This is where I also will add the input 
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1 that if the emissions are based solely on the use 

2 phase, I would encourage that you add in the 

3 additional cost -- the additional emissions that 

4 will be produced by the manufacturers to produce 

5 the larger products that are being requested 

6 here. 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Thank you. 

8 MR. MYER: As a request, do you 

9 have --if you could provide it in your 

10 comments -- the estimate of what the additional 

11 energy use to produce said new fixtures would be 

12 versus over the -- I guess the incremental 

13 increase. We can do certain things, but 

14 if -- it's just sometimes a guess or an estimate 

15 without your input. 

16 MR. DUFFY: There has been a 

17 discussion at lunchtime, and NEMA intends to 

18 take a look at what -- at the carbon footprint. 

19 MR. MYER: Thank you. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Joe 

21 Hancock has raised his hand. Joe, you're on. 

22 MR. HANCOCK: Hi. Thank you very 
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1 much. I get a little bit confused when I start 

2 seeing these carbon footprints, at least for our 

3 company and our -- we actually provide service 

4 to about 850,000 lights total, including the 

5 energy-only. 

6 We are basically nuke. Is 

7 that -- is nuclear taken into consideration as, 

8 you know, this is night-time load at least for 

9 street lighting, and most of us are not burning 

10 oil to light these lights? 

11 MR. MYER: It does take into account 

12 of different fuel mixes, yes. I would -- 

13 MR. HANCOCK: Okay. 

14 MR. MYER: -- like to look at the 

15 sensitivity of the model, whether or not it is 

16 time of use dependent and what the -- if the usage 

17 shifts based on time of usage. But I -- 

18 MR. HANCOCK: Yes. That is very 

19 significant. At night, we are almost entirely 

20 running on nuke. 

21 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

22 MR. MYER: We will look into that. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. 

2 MR. HANCOCK: Yes, sir. Thank you. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

4 EEI. There was a record amount of wind 

5 generation installed in the U.S. last year, 

6 about 13,000 megawatts. And there are certain 

7 parts of the country now -- I know Texas and 

8 many -- there are certain states and certain 

9 parts of the country where the wind generation 

10 is well over 30 percent during certain times of 

11 the day, and the wind generation tends to peak 

12 during the nighttime hours. 

13 Thank you. 

14 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

15 MR. MYER: Moving on to the 

16 regulatory impact analysis, so this is 

17 essentially the final analysis that we present 

18 in the NOPR. This is in the event of an absence 

19 of a standard, essentially. So we look at six 

20 different scenarios, one being no new regulatory 

21 action, one being customer rebates, one being 

22 customer tax credits, another being 
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1 manufacturer tax credits. Finally, voluntary 

2 energy efficiency programs, and then bulk 

3 government purchases. 

4 Then, we run a variation of the model 

5 trying to estimate what the effects of each of 

6 these six scenarios would be, and whether or not 

7 it is greater for -- against a standard versus 

8 any of these six. The standard does save more 

9 energy than any of these six, the proposed 

10 standard. 

11 MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here? 

12 Alex? 

13 MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex 

14 Boesenberg from NEMA. I would repeat my request 

15 from the last public meeting I was at. I would 

16 like to know by what criteria the Secretary will 

17 find no new regulatory action. I was told at the 

18 last public meeting there had been one in years 

19 past, but I have yet to receive that information. 

20 We are very interested in finding out what 

21 is needed to justify no new regulation, the 

22 overwhelming tendency to be -- there just has to 
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1 be one, we are not looking hard enough. I think 

2 we saw some of the analysis already today that 

3 shows very little difference from not doing 

4 anything at all. 

5 And bearing in mind all of the 

6 changes in employment that will happen in the 

7 manufacturing, the diversion from investment in 

8 the new technologies for the companies who 

9 decide to remain players in metal halide, it just 

10 doesn't add up. But the perception is we are 

11 going for a rule no matter what. But if there 

12 are no clearly defined parameters, it is almost 

13 as though DOE is not able to suggest no new 

14 regulation, because it's not identified. 

15 So we sympathize with your plight. 

16 We would like to know what those parameters are. 

17 MR. BROOKMAN: Lucy. 

18 MS. DeBUTTS: We'll come back to you 

19 on that one. As I said -- 

20 MR. BOESENBERG: You said that last 

21 time. 

22 MS. DeBUTTS: I think those 
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1 exchanges we had, you and I, last time as well. 

2 But we will revisit that and talk to you about 

3 this in some form later. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Additional 

5 thoughts/comments on regulatory impact 

6 analysis? 

7 (No response.) 

8 MR. MYER: I'd like to touch on one 

9 additional slide. These are some potential 

10 updates for the final rule, so we are moving into 

11 the final rule phase after this. There are some 

12 time-dependent updates that occur 

13 normally -- electricity prices, sales tax. But 

14 then there are also four parameters that I did 

15 want to identify that we are considering modest 

16 changes to. 

17 These also have actually come from 

18 additional comments that we have heard earlier 

19 about the three other rules. The HID standard 

20 rule, there is a lot of overlap between that rule 

21 and this rule, and so some of these are just 

22 trying to harmonize the two rules where 
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1 possible. Again, that was a comment we received 

2 earlier this morning, as well as other times. 

3 So one is that the shipments, in 

4 addition to any comment you receive today, we are 

5 considering slightly reducing the shipments 

6 starting point based on some other data that we 

7 have seen. The NEMA lamp shipment index 

8 recently is just kind of an indication that there 

9 is fewer lamps right now, and fewer lamps means 

10 fewer fixtures. 

11 Another one is a small modification 

12 to outdoor operating hours. This is really just 

13 a differentiation between HID versus metal 

14 halide. The numbers are very similar, but we 

15 are just trying to -- this, again, is a 

16 harmonization difference. Labor rates, we have 

17 heard a lot of comments from GE and other people 

18 on labor rates. 

19 In the HID interim analysis, we were 

20 asked to look at not only RS-Means as an 

21 estimating guide but also combine it with Sweets 

22 or other guides, or other sources for labor 
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1 estimates. We are still in the process of that, 

2 and there has been a great number of discussions 

3 today about labor rates. So we will definitely 

4 include those there as well. 

5 And then, finally, there is expected 

6 some small modifications to discount rates. 

7 Again, this is a harmonization between the two 

8 rules. 

9 Joe? 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Joe. 

11 MR. HOWLEY: Just an overall 

12 comment is that you have also heard a tremendous 

13 amount of comments today, a lot of them dealing 

14 with just economic changes, things that were 

15 very different than what you modeled, where we 

16 believe you just simply got it wrong. And, you 

17 know, a whole new analysis from our point of view 

18 needs to be conducted here, using all of the 

19 input that you receive today. 

20 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Lucy? 

21 MS. DeBUTTS: Lucy deButts. Yes, 

22 these are not the only factors that are going to 
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1 be updated. That's why we're collecting 

2 comments, and we appreciate your written 

3 responses as well. 

4 MR. MYER: At this time, I'm going 

5 to return the presentation to Matthew Walker 

6 from Navigant, who will discuss proposed energy 

7 conservation standards. 

8 MR. WALKER: Hi. Matthew Walker, 

9 Navigant. So this slide presents the proposed 

10 standard TSL 3, and we've already kind of covered 

11 this before. EL2 for all equipment classes, 

12 except for the 100- to 150-watt grouping, with 

13 the design standard at the highest wattage 

14 range. 

15 Then, a quick overview of the 

16 impacts of the proposed rule. Cumulative 

17 energy savings are between .8 and 1.1 quads over 

18 the 30-year analysis period. Cost savings to 

19 consumers as a group, .95 to 3.2 billion. Then, 

20 looking at environmental benefits, the 

21 monetization of those carbon dioxide emission 

22 reductions is estimated between $.33 and $4.7 
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1 billion. 

2 MR. BROOKMAN: Steve. 

3 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock, 

4 EEI. The value for CO, that is using the 

 2

5 2013 -- I guess that's using the 2013 social cost 

6 for carbon? 

7 MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer. 

8 MR. MYER: Yes. I would actually 

9 defer you to the document -- I'm sorry, the 

10 Technical Support Document. There is a range of 

11 values listed, so I don't want to speak off the 

12 cuff because it's probably the 2013, but it's 

13 also probably, at a given scenario, there are 

14 different discount rates. That's what I'm 

15 trying to say. 

16 MR. ROSENSTOCK: I know. I know. 

17 MR. MYER: There is like seven 

18 values listed, and depending on which one you 

19 pick -- so, in the Technical Support Document, 

20 as well as the guidance regarding monetization, 

21 some of your earlier comments, we actually do 

22 actively update that probably more than some of 
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1 the other things on a frequent basis. So I'd 

2 defer you there for the exact answer, but I 

3 believe you are correct. 

4 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you. 

5 And there is another rulemaking where that has 

6 been issues about the use and social cost of 

7 carbon. I think that -- I think there is a lot 

8 of -- you know, there is concern about the values 

9 being shown and highlighted and especially at 

10 the upper end where that $4.7 billion basically 

11 represents an estimated cost of like $120, 

12 starting in 2015, and then only escalating over 

13 time. 

14 And, you know, it's -- and it shows 

15 it's even higher that that -- that is even higher 

16 than the $3.2 billion at the -- you know, the 

17 three percent discount rate. And we have a lot 

18 of concerns about, number one, what happens when 

19 you are using this upper end of the range and it 

20 is being shown as value as a benefit that 

21 consumers are not going to see. And it 

22 obviously could have a very big impact on the TSL 
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1 that is -- I mean, the efficiency level that is 

2 chosen. 

3 Thank you. 

4 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Let's go 

5 to the final comment box. 

6 MR. WALKER: All right. This issue 

7 just generally is asking for any additional 

8 thoughts that anyone has on the proposed 

9 standard TSL 3. 

10 MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. And also, 

11 this is an opportunity for anybody that wishes 

12 to raise any additional issues, as we promised 

13 this morning, any final comments. Keith. 

14 MR. KEITH COOK: I just -- this is 

15 Keith Cook from Philips. I just want to 

16 reiterate that as I understand the process there 

17 is really only two criteria that determines a 

18 rulemaking, and that is economic justification 

19 and technical feasibility. And at this point, 

20 I don't believe that the technical feasibility 

21 has been proven, since it is all based upon a 

22 subjective model that is easily changed. 
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1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

2 Yes, Doug. 

3 MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco. 

4 Follow up on those comments. I would also like 

5 to reiterate that I do not believe that anything 

6 larger than 1,000 watts should be included. 

7 Again, back to the technical 

8 feasibility, it is I think pretty clear in the 

9 market there is no commercially available 

10 pulse-start ballasts or lamps. So to include 

11 greater than 1,000 watts would be inappropriate 

12 with this standard. 

13 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. 

14 Additional comments? 

15 (No response.) 

16 As we move towards closing, I will 

17 just -- so then for my part, I thank all of you. 

18 Very, very productive meeting. Thanks to 

19 everyone who joined us via the web, and safe 

20 travels to all. 

21 I'll turn it back to Lucy deButts for 

22 closing remarks. 
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1 MS. DeBUTTS: Yes. I would like to 

2 thank everyone as well. I think we have heard 

3 a lot of information that is going to be very 

4 beneficial to everyone. 

5 I do encourage you to submit written 

6 comments. They are important to us. And I hope 

7 we can take you all on your offers to have 

8 one-on-one conversations with the team members. 

9 Other than that, we'll talk to you 

10 soon, and thanks for coming. 

11 (Whereupon, at 3:27 p.m., the 

12 proceedings in the foregoing matter were 

13 concluded.) 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22
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257:6 265:19,22

268:7 282:16

287:3 290:7

296:17 306:17,19

311:17 312:10

315:11 317:18

318:17 319:13

320:2 321:21

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Comments/quest...

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commercial 20:8

23:21 56:16,19

226:12 244:8

294:13,14 303:21

commercially

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131:12 139:2

162:18 163:13

203:6,7 204:2,3,6

204:8 324:9

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164:14 181:1

commercial-focu...

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commodity 55:12

common 77:10

101:4 126:13,16

227:20

Commonwealth

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compact 24:9

227:7

companies 23:3

29:12 72:9,11

73:7 95:2,4,5

108:10 279:18

283:14,16,18,22

284:14 305:17

316:8

company 2:17

58:12 65:17 72:7

94:11 154:2 191:5

300:16 301:5

302:6 303:22

305:8 313:3

comparable 98:16

compare 96:3

247:16 293:6

compared 16:8

18:1 107:22

161:14 280:2

compares 112:6

comparing 107:21

208:22 280:1

comparison 138:15

139:5 208:19

293:6 299:1

compatibility 29:5

29:10 80:4,9

145:18,20 146:13

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compatible 28:17

compensate 175:13

compete 56:4

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competing 304:18

competition 55:7

55:10 73:14

competitive 273:5

290:3

competitor 261:15

competitors 261:2

complete 10:18

65:15 143:13,13

completely 36:5

62:2 92:13 120:18

220:2

complex 19:21

246:6

complexity 119:11

167:12

compliance 19:7,18

20:13 34:9 76:4

87:22 88:1,6,9

202:12 270:9

273:21 286:6

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compliant 57:17

75:9 86:21

complicated 20:14

26:3 282:7

complicating 76:9

comply 22:12

58:11 272:4,15

component 186:7

208:14 243:21

components 104:1

142:22 165:20

193:21 194:4,6,14

194:15,18,20

comprise 97:16

Con 251:15

concentrated 58:14

concept 209:13,14

conceptually 300:9

concern 19:17

24:20 26:12 54:18

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confidentiality

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126:19 179:8

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conservative 178:8

conservatively 86:9

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consider 21:5 34:5

39:5 46:7 47:12

67:11 79:18 86:19

110:16 111:3,8,11

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36:8 37:3 45:15

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considerations

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180:7 210:17

212:12 287:8

considering 102:19

125:20 170:4

181:11 196:3

317:15 318:5

considers 46:5 98:1

101:21 102:4

119:20

consistent 21:3

110:18 181:10

265:2 266:18

292:4

consonant 104:14

constant 55:16

105:18 132:12

134:19 158:22

159:2 216:3

constantly 147:8

Consulting 1:21

2:2,11,18 3:8,10

3:18,19 6:18,20

7:2 97:8,11

269:11

consume 149:5

consumed 116:15

consumer 14:11

20:7 24:7 56:14

56:17 58:22 98:4

98:19 105:12

consumers 62:9

229:5 320:19

322:21

consumes 51:2

contacted 288:4

contain 47:22

contemplation

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content 8:19 43:15

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CONTENTS 3:1

context 309:21

continually 285:14

continue 40:17

42:14 48:6 65:14

74:15 76:15

106:22 109:18

185:12 267:10

283:18 308:18

continued 2:1

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continuing 41:2

48:4 72:18 298:4

contractor 225:3,6

contractors 26:19

218:3

contracts 23:5,6,10

27:1,1

control 118:4

205:18 221:13

239:15

controlled 35:10

52:4

controlling 239:16

controls 76:10

convergence 153:2

conversation 38:8

68:21 154:17

158:6 198:5 219:8

conversations 11:2

229:9 325:8

converse 150:4

Conversely 273:3

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265:22 275:11,20

277:8 285:20

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converting 152:6

convince 150:17

Cook 2:2,2 3:18 6:2

6:2 7:1,1 55:18,18

152:17,20,20

164:19,22,22

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194:22 207:6,6

214:19 215:21

220:13 231:6,11

269:8,10,11 277:4

277:14,18 278:3

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281:17 285:4,10

285:16 286:19

287:1,6 289:19,19

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Cooper 2:5,15 5:13

7:14 58:10 67:5

71:11 138:11

142:5 148:17

191:5 235:5

237:14 263:13

coordinate 146:9

146:14

copper 60:6 165:14

216:5

copy 13:12,20

core 24:8 34:18

93:2 119:8 189:5

189:9 206:1

233:13,19

corner 42:1

correct 66:1,16

68:16 69:6 70:1

86:20 139:10

141:18,19 159:17

168:2 174:3,4

204:5 212:22

213:16 231:15

235:14,21 236:6

277:18 290:18

309:19 322:3

correctly 165:11

200:10 212:20

215:16

correlate 37:14

40:7

correlated 109:4

correlation 105:7

109:6

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correspond 12:15

12:18

cost 3:12 9:21

17:17 24:11 42:9

58:11 59:14 62:18

63:2 106:14

125:13 127:3

139:22 144:11,13

145:6 165:18,19

170:10 182:17

186:9,17,19 187:5

187:10,22 188:5,8

189:21 190:13,15

194:7 197:10

207:21 220:18

222:12 228:17

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Counsel's 6:11

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counterintuitive

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couple 28:14 78:15

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courier 13:6

course 13:1 16:15

28:16 31:1 45:10

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cover 64:22 115:11

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coverage 47:19

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covered 10:12

21:13 23:19 39:13

39:14 47:4,13

73:22 91:3 105:9

113:1,18 114:20

118:19 133:9

155:17 185:12

239:8 270:19

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covers 69:2 158:13

208:14

Craig 2:15 7:19

create 34:20

210:16 246:7

created 134:9

274:1 300:2

creates 51:6 273:13

creating 119:7

221:16

creation 303:7

credit 149:21

credits 314:22

315:1

criteria 102:3,5

113:19 119:2

277:22 278:4,9,13

287:6 291:18

315:16 323:17

criterion 119:17

critical 19:2

cross-sections

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CSA 26:13

cuff 245:10 301:21

321:12

cumulative 307:3

307:13 320:16

curious 121:18

177:7 202:21

234:8 256:18

281:2

current 36:19

46:10,17 75:21

77:17 85:21 86:17

93:7 97:15 109:2

109:4 112:6

114:16 116:16,17

117:3,4,9,18

118:4 120:10

308:20

currently 4:17

78:19 88:15 93:22

130:9 139:13,16

159:10 203:5

288:17

curvature 178:9

curve 40:19 178:1

258:18 264:22

curved 178:3

curves 158:8 265:1

cushion 86:11 89:3

89:5,11

customer 85:16

144:20 281:7,11

314:21,22

customers 22:20

23:1,2,7 26:17

27:1 72:15 119:5

124:18 208:1

229:6 242:1,11

253:4,9 264:7

272:9,13 273:14

273:18 275:13

280:19 304:16

cut 51:17 302:7

305:8

cutout 136:6

cycle 17:17 59:14

65:15 201:10,12

235:13 248:9

cylinder 192:18

C136.2-2004

102:10

C82.6 38:1 39:1

82:3

D

damaged 71:14

damages 264:1

Daniel 2:19 6:4

50:11,12 51:8,19

63:15 64:7,8

69:18,19 95:18

141:7,19 148:17

177:19 195:4,5

202:7 265:10,11

282:17

data 12:4 23:13

31:15 36:2 39:12

40:3,6,10,14,18

42:4,10 79:1

93:13 108:13

131:11,19,20

133:3,4 140:12,13

158:20,21 178:6

182:12 186:11

222:11 236:20

237:1 238:1

239:16 255:6

257:16 260:22

262:1,3,21 264:12

264:12 284:17

286:22 293:3

295:16 296:3,5,13

318:6

database 79:2

95:12 287:17

date 19:19 27:12

45:1,6 87:22 88:1

88:6 152:13

169:20 270:9

309:14

dates 19:8 45:12

daunting 92:19

dawn 161:16

day 10:8 16:16

42:15 73:2,20

83:15 94:20 115:5

123:17 161:16

173:12 224:6

257:20 296:8

314:11

days 115:5 224:7

deadline 12:20

deal 135:1 196:21

198:13 221:3

236:3

dealing 93:10

135:14 197:19

221:6 319:13

deals 167:9 215:22

DeBUTTS 1:16 3:5

3:21 4:14,15,17

6:14,14 9:9 11:17

11:20 13:14,18

43:14,17 44:19

45:3 46:3 64:20

74:18 76:20 97:6

278:16 316:18,22

319:21,21 324:21

325:1

decade 304:9

decades 16:5

December 44:6

decide 26:4 94:22

283:18 316:9

decided 55:4

deciding 74:21

97:22

decimal 39:7 79:2

decision 55:2 58:13

58:17 148:12

149:3

decisions 94:12

95:1,15 283:15

decks 225:4

declare 84:10

declared 84:18
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dedicated 98:15

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defining 172:2

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depths 245:20

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described 28:4

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276:3

description 68:17

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descriptions

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design 54:2 63:1

76:5 84:1 91:6

93:1 99:12 117:10

117:13 119:19,20

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122:9 131:14,16

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212:2 220:17

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designation 106:8

128:6 187:7

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designed 46:15

84:11,13 89:12,13

113:22 117:15

143:9,17 187:15

189:5 191:13

195:16 198:8,10

204:9 206:11

designers 26:20

designs 51:15

195:19,20

despite 105:3

destroy 233:17

destroyed 259:1

detail 19:3 70:12

137:12 181:17

210:4 236:10

237:11 285:19

details 14:22 21:12

determination

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265:21

determine 90:13

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determined 25:17

75:20 128:6

133:16 288:14

determines 323:17

determining 21:19

124:15 139:19

develop 49:15

131:18 271:7,18

developed 165:3

186:11 271:10

developing 125:9

125:11 144:14

development 20:18

54:13 62:3 130:6

193:6 198:14

220:16 283:5

develops 104:6

208:16

deviation 91:14,21

deviations 91:7,10

93:5

device 185:6 234:6

235:7,8 240:9

241:6 247:8,9,11

249:5 251:2

devices 56:5

diagram 133:21

differed 104:11

208:20

difference 28:19

41:15 66:20 85:4

85:19 107:2

116:12 159:20

187:9 204:10

220:7 245:7,10,11

316:3 318:16

differences 96:8

107:21 130:18

180:2 209:17

282:1

different 31:17

38:16 39:10 43:4

63:1 67:12 77:2

85:2 92:13,15

98:20 104:15

105:19 106:5,13

113:12 114:3,5

116:19 117:10

130:18 132:6

150:9 158:13

171:16 200:4,5

220:2,11 222:4

224:6,18,22 225:7

226:7,7,11 235:20

236:3 243:20

255:11 257:11

261:6 265:13,15

266:10,17 271:4

274:7 291:13,16

291:20,21,21

292:15 293:5,8,15

294:13 303:4

307:6,7 313:12

314:20 319:15

321:14

differentiate 297:7

differentiation

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differently 251:7

282:9 295:4

310:19

difficult 23:11 29:8

30:18,22 33:19

80:10 96:8,10

99:13,17 136:2

194:16 232:4

263:14 264:6

difficulties 82:22

155:3 206:16

difficulty 57:18

dig 78:22 79:10

digit 86:14

dimensions 138:1

139:20

diminish 268:3

dimming 76:10

diode 42:20

dioxide 307:5,8,9

320:21

dip 40:22

direct 225:7 270:6

299:1

direction 265:7

297:11

directly 105:15

123:14 125:2,18

126:3 143:4 225:5

245:16 288:4

disagree 115:21

disagreement

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disaster 89:8

215:10

discharge 80:9

145:21

disconcerting

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disconnect 60:18

discontinued

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discontinuing

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discount 301:14

319:6 321:14

322:17

discounted 245:1,3

270:13

discovered 22:10

discuss 4:19 12:1

43:4 74:19 228:12

258:2 269:16

270:3 320:6

discussed 58:10

98:10 222:9 224:1

discussing 49:13

98:6 103:18

148:20 222:5

269:12

discussion 18:4

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111:3 118:22

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126:15 127:7,20

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134:7,9 140:17

141:9 149:20

153:1 157:10

158:18,21 159:1,5

159:16 162:22

163:6 172:20

174:6 175:10,19

176:6 177:21

179:8,10,17 180:7

182:1 186:10

188:14 203:4

208:16 209:5

210:13 212:9

215:16 218:3

238:22 240:7

244:21 256:10

260:18 261:18

262:20 265:13

269:18 270:11,20

271:5,10,16 274:4

274:6,14 275:6,16

278:5 279:15

285:20 287:7,15

287:22 288:4,8,14

289:6,13 306:4,11

316:13

DOE's 17:20 60:16

163:8 239:2

287:18 288:4

doing 22:16 27:6

46:5 120:14 142:8

146:10 208:3

218:6 221:1

223:12 235:20

240:2 310:19

316:3

dollars 240:19

275:3

dots 281:9

dotted 35:15

133:11

double 17:22 219:6

251:20 311:4

doubled 41:20

Doug 1:12,15 2:19

4:10,18 6:6 12:8

15:19,20 107:12

107:13 118:5,6

129:1,2 161:6,7

167:5,6 180:15,16

238:12,14 255:5

291:8 306:22

324:2,3

doughnut 123:12

Doug's 173:10

downsized 272:7

downstream

124:20 291:12

dozens 25:20

draft 87:19,19

89:20

drained 56:5

dramatic 308:2

drastically 21:1

115:2,3 227:10

284:19

draw 42:11,12

95:20 117:9 145:2

216:22

draws 62:14

drive 61:13 207:21

driven 55:22

driver 54:3,10

232:16 233:17

234:21 246:15

drivers 155:5

206:17,21 232:13

232:20

drives 42:8 239:20

295:7

drove 54:16

due 95:14 126:4

189:3 273:20

274:22 275:14

276:1 277:15

289:8

Duffy 2:3 7:10,11

89:1,2 147:17,19

147:19 148:13

217:8 268:14

311:20 312:16

Duke 206:18

Dun 287:20

dusk 161:16

DVT 201:13

D.C 1:12 4:8

E

earlier 36:9 38:4

48:12 50:1 52:15

70:22 76:21 78:4

80:1 85:9 90:4

100:22 102:18

107:14 116:11

118:10 190:4

217:9 224:1 229:9

239:5 256:9 283:2

295:13 317:18

318:2 321:21

early 286:7

earn 275:2

Earthjustice 1:19

8:13 171:9

ease 167:1

easier 104:20

easily 144:3 323:22

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72:17 73:5,17

74:5 81:12 91:3

97:12,17,19

106:15 127:6,22

130:10 149:18

157:10 160:7,8

172:20 179:13

190:20 213:2,20

213:21 214:4

222:20 226:16

227:5,12,12 265:3

272:5,7 279:8

283:2,16,17,20

284:19 285:14

288:2 289:1,12

290:5 296:7

298:22 304:14

324:9

marketing 22:19

23:4 27:5 65:15

286:9

marketplace 24:5,7

24:13 25:1 60:20

128:17 227:6,16

markets 23:3

107:21 289:5

marks 125:14

markup 3:11 9:21

125:15 224:21

274:4,9,12,19,20

275:1,9,18 276:3

281:4 282:8 299:3

299:4 300:1

markups 187:2

222:6,10 224:16

224:17 226:8,10
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mass 32:4 35:11

220:4

masse 184:18

mast 166:22 169:8

match 60:21

matching 71:20

material 10:21

34:16 35:1,3 38:7

89:6 91:19,20

120:12 165:19

186:17 220:6

251:4

materials 23:4 27:5

38:4 60:6 120:7

137:22

math 40:9 224:11

260:10 261:3

262:6

mathematical

104:6

mathematically

38:17

Matt 3:8 6:19

97:10 125:19

matter 9:14 48:16

48:19 123:20

146:14 316:11

325:12

matters 69:18

Matthew 1:21 2:18

3:10,19 6:21

64:20 68:14,15

97:7 113:13,14

124:8,10 165:1

168:14 170:11

174:1 186:4 204:3

234:1,2 247:4

290:9,10 320:5,8

Matthew's 67:5

Mauer 2:10 8:3,3

16:20,20 57:3,3

63:6,6 110:12,12

111:13,21 112:2,8

112:13 164:13,13

215:15,15 243:11

243:11 244:9,9,15

246:9,14,21

252:22,22 253:16

264:9,9 265:4,7,9

max 17:18 28:9

30:18 32:18 58:19

131:17 133:16

135:11 136:10

159:15,18 163:7

163:18 177:5

210:21 212:19,21

213:3,7,14

maximizes 214:9

maximum 17:15

100:16 125:10

135:8 211:5,10

McCABE 7:17,17

McDONALD 2:11

6:17,17

mean 13:16 37:10

51:16 52:16 53:9

53:15 59:5,13

61:4,13 65:17,20

73:2 85:10 92:22

96:20 117:20

140:7,8 143:12

153:21 155:18

160:17 165:21

170:12 185:6

194:3 196:2 197:3

201:11,18 207:17

213:17 214:1,2

215:10,12,22

219:8,20 226:21

231:17 236:12

240:16 248:20

249:22 260:1

262:12 297:17

305:14,16 323:1

meaning 212:11

260:16

means 29:18 36:18

36:19,21 39:21

66:13 90:7 91:14

91:16,22 94:18

119:21 123:5

143:4 146:13

182:4 190:7

207:22 260:5,10

261:14 262:7

283:17 318:9

meant 130:9

141:20 177:10

measure 30:9

38:21,21 85:16

measured 83:12

110:9

measurement 31:4

71:2

measurements

30:14 31:6 110:5

median 59:7 177:3

231:4 241:22

242:19 280:19

292:14,17

medium 109:11

meet 15:8 48:18

49:9 63:12 68:5

86:16 99:17

104:20 111:2

113:19 126:18,21

136:2 162:14

288:17

meeting 1:6,11,12

1:15 4:5 10:12,18

11:18 18:3,15

25:1 43:18 68:3

95:8 102:3 136:1

138:4 140:16

152:11 217:9

291:1 294:22

315:15,18 324:18

meetings 10:15

11:7 80:10 218:21

266:8

meets 15:7 102:5

megawatts 314:6

member 261:9

members 18:18

42:12 49:13 54:22

70:11 78:21

150:14 166:19

169:3 200:1 252:4

259:10 260:22

325:8

membership

114:18

mention 13:3 63:19

247:10 251:10

mentioned 29:6

46:11 48:12 58:4

70:21 76:21 78:4

78:16 80:2 95:21

102:18 106:2

132:15 138:17

145:13,15 157:22

187:6 199:18

228:14 240:10

mentions 164:6

mercury 307:8

308:6,6,8,9

message 42:5

met 25:5 141:11

163:19 288:6

metal 1:4 4:7,19

12:2 14:20 17:4

24:7 27:19 28:18

29:16 39:10,16

40:12 41:4 42:1

42:12 44:4 46:12

46:16,21 47:12

76:12,22 78:10

96:5,9 98:20

109:13 145:20

149:16 151:6,7,11

152:6,7,9 156:7

156:10,17 157:3

157:12,20 158:3,6

166:17 171:11

174:7 178:15

190:19 192:7,8,10

195:8,11 202:17

205:22 212:4

222:21 226:19,22

227:16,21 228:3

241:16 257:8

259:6 265:22

266:7,15 268:2

269:22 272:1,7,9

272:10,16 273:6

274:7 276:4,9,11

276:12,17,19,21

282:22 287:8,13

288:8,10 289:21

292:13 297:6,9,12

297:17 316:9

318:13

methane 307:9

methodologies

11:22

methodology 125:1

159:11 177:16

271:20

metric 75:18

270:16 272:19,20

272:22 273:4,9

metrics 75:21

Meyer 249:8,12,14

256:16 311:16

MIA 269:13,13,15

269:18,20 270:6

270:20 271:3,20

274:5 282:17

287:3 298:19

299:8,8

mic 164:19 203:13

Michael 2:13,14,17

3:13,15 7:15,17

221:21 222:2

228:14 236:16,18

237:12 249:10,14

256:15,16 259:15

265:16 291:6,9

303:9 321:7

microphone 11:4

71:9 247:14

microphones 5:2

Microsoft 237:3

mid 32:6

middle 47:1 132:11

midmorning 9:19

Midway 162:21

mid-year 40:17

Mike 5:10 7:3

152:1,3 207:15,16

236:7 248:19

249:8 257:22

297:14

million 297:9
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millions 150:6

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mine 74:7

minimal 150:10

180:2

minimum 46:20

minus 34:17,19

85:17 86:1 91:12

91:13 156:15

159:22

minute 139:17

minutes 122:20

123:5,6,17 125:19

179:21 184:14

185:11 220:4

290:14

misapplication

115:17

misgivings 205:20

mismatch 211:9

missed 81:5 256:7

missing 144:22

277:5

mistake 32:14

37:15 136:11

mistress 11:10

misunderstanding

65:10

mitigate 261:20

mixes 313:12

mixture 297:10,11

mode 11:2

model 126:15,18

131:9 139:12,14

148:3 162:20

165:5,18 176:22

179:4 186:18

214:21 215:17,20

217:10,13,18,21

245:21 246:7

270:13,14,15,22

298:7,8 300:21

301:2,8 306:5,8,8

313:15 315:4

323:22

modeled 132:6

163:1,10 165:2

212:19,21 213:20

215:7,13 216:12

216:20 220:8,8

319:15

modeling 148:1,6

217:4 290:19

299:1

models 226:4 237:1

306:14 309:17

modest 317:15

modification

318:11

modifications

319:6

modified 21:22

22:6 175:10 187:2

233:20

modifying 23:4

27:5

moment 259:17

moments 89:4

monetary 254:4

267:2

monetization 10:5

307:2 311:13

320:21 321:20

money 232:18

303:1,3,17 304:7

305:5,7,13,18,19

monitor 239:15

294:20

monitored 185:8

294:16

month 233:1

monthly 303:17

months 22:13

44:18,18 92:13

96:21 97:3 198:16

199:5 201:11,21

201:22

morning 4:4,12,13

4:15 8:17 43:5

97:9 124:2,10

229:9 318:2

323:13

Morris 2:12 3:13

3:15 7:5,5 228:11

228:13 231:10,15

233:8 235:22

236:6 243:18

244:14 245:9

246:13,16,22

253:13,19 254:17

254:20,22 255:4

265:16 266:21

268:7,9 269:7

302:17,17 303:9

move 33:4 34:2

40:8 43:9 53:13

53:15 55:4 69:18

90:22 91:1 95:17

97:4 129:22

136:18 158:5

162:10 170:15

179:6 204:11

205:21 210:11

221:18 262:22

282:4,12 287:3

306:20 307:1

324:16

movement 52:6

193:11

moving 23:17 41:3

41:14 71:6,8

100:10 118:20

131:5 133:8

134:21 140:18

152:3,5 160:3

210:22 224:16

253:17 266:20

314:15 317:10

MOVs 248:2

MPC 125:13

188:16

MSP 224:21

MSPs 188:12,13

204:15,17 207:4

multiple 76:4

202:12

multiplied 40:15

multiplier 125:15

176:2

multiply 223:2

multiplying 176:4

multi-suppression

240:9

multi-tab 99:12

multi-taps 84:4

Musco 2:15,19 6:6

7:19 15:20 16:2

107:13 118:6

129:2,14 161:7

166:15 167:6

180:16 182:20

238:15 324:3

Musco's 118:9

mute 11:9

Myer 2:13 3:13,15

7:3,3 221:22

222:1,2 223:18,22

224:15 225:19,22

226:14 227:17

228:8,10 236:16

236:18,18 237:13

249:8,14 256:16

257:22,22 258:19

259:17 265:18

291:6,7,9 292:20

294:4 296:19

297:19,22 298:3

299:7 300:12

301:20 306:16,22

311:19 312:8,19

313:11,14,22

314:15 317:8

320:4 321:7,8,17

mysterious 306:5

M6 120:11

N

name 4:9 5:4 10:16

13:4 66:9 88:21

97:10 124:10

137:6 138:8

269:10

narrow 272:10

nation 17:3 124:19

national 1:20 2:12

2:13 3:13,15,16

7:4,6 9:22 17:22

18:12 102:6

206:12,19 222:3

236:19 249:15

254:2,3 256:17

266:21 267:13,14

268:16 269:2

291:10 301:14

302:18 304:8

natural 60:2 89:8

nature 105:7

Navigant 1:21 2:2

2:11,18 3:8,10,18

3:19 6:18,20,22

7:2 43:22 65:21

68:16 97:7,11

113:15 124:11

234:3 269:11

290:11 320:6,9

nearest 78:3,5

nearly 35:4

necessarily 36:10

63:17 64:2,4

192:6 200:16

201:5 213:2

214:21 305:4

necessary 27:6

100:21 217:11

necessity 113:2

NEEA 49:7 53:18

57:16 116:9

134:17 160:6

193:2 218:2 238:8

304:14,14

need 12:3 21:11

28:14 32:11 34:7

36:5 37:2 55:20

62:20 63:11 72:15

108:11 111:14

118:3 123:11

160:21 166:9

185:4,5 187:22

197:11 233:13,19

277:13 290:22
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needing 95:22

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112:17 257:14

319:18

negative 253:7

279:13,16,20,22

280:6,11 284:12

284:22 298:9

301:16 304:9

negligible 258:17

264:17

neighborhood

256:1

neither 293:16

NEMA 5:15 9:1,12

11:16 13:17 18:8

31:9 36:2 39:11

44:14,22 45:11

47:14 48:10,10

49:13 50:1 54:22

55:1 70:11 78:15

80:7 82:15 87:8

88:11 89:16 94:8

95:6 100:3 102:18

102:21 114:14,16

118:7 145:12

150:3 166:14

167:20 168:21

199:15 216:18

238:3 252:11,12

256:7 257:18

260:14,22 261:17

264:11 283:13

302:4 312:17

315:14 318:7

NEMA's 118:17

258:4

NESC 206:13

net 211:2 229:6

242:1,1 254:3

266:22 270:16

280:8 281:5,14

298:9,9 301:15,18

networks 248:1

never 179:17 184:3

242:6

new 20:4,16,16

21:15 22:6 33:13

38:12 48:18 56:1

59:3 61:7 62:22

64:10,19,22 65:6

67:22 68:3,5,19

69:2,3,4,9 71:18

72:8 87:1,14,20

93:14,15,17 94:2

96:13 144:14

150:18 154:5

164:10 179:12

180:10 183:15

192:11 195:19,21

196:4,13 212:4

220:17 241:10

251:15 254:6

255:19 258:9,13

258:22 259:3,4,5

259:21 260:3

263:16 264:14

267:8 270:18

286:2 289:16

302:8,9 307:20

310:5,5 311:10

312:11 314:20

315:17,21 316:8

316:13 319:17

NIA 254:2

nice 200:20 262:19

296:9

night 116:4 242:14

313:19

nightmare 61:18

nighttime 314:12

night-time 313:8

nine 263:6

nitrogen 307:5,8

nitrous 307:8

noise 261:17

nominal 110:5

nonprofit 62:9

non-air-conditio...

197:18

non-representative

209:8

NOPR 14:7,19

20:20 35:14,16

42:6 44:6,8 45:5

45:18 47:11 49:16

55:3 58:12 63:13

66:10 70:4 97:15

107:11 119:21

120:3 128:6 132:9

159:7 160:6 180:7

183:1 204:16

222:8 236:20

269:13 271:10

276:15 277:1

288:18 290:18

309:21 314:18

normal 206:14

normally 147:3

263:17 317:13

Northwest 2:3,12

2:13,16 3:13,16

6:8 7:4,6 8:10

112:15 222:2

236:19 249:15

256:17 291:9

302:18

note 17:16 88:12

100:3 106:16

128:2 175:7

204:21,21 215:16

228:20 229:3,8

238:3 252:11

308:20 310:4

noted 160:20

notice 1:3 4:6 12:18

255:13,21 293:9

no-rule 285:1

no-standard 280:7

NPC 274:22

NPV 211:3,5,16

214:9,15 268:4

NSPS 307:20

nuclear 313:7

nuke 313:6,20

nullify 273:22

number 13:3,4

22:11 39:22 40:7

50:3,5,8 79:16

90:22 94:19,21

96:14 134:11

165:11 178:20

179:5 206:9 207:8

209:20 220:15

223:19,20,22

224:10 234:9

239:3 240:11,12

256:19 261:13

262:15 265:5

278:7 288:22

289:11,14 293:15

297:12 305:16

307:6,19 308:3

309:5 319:2

322:18

numbers 12:16

30:17 31:2 39:20

40:14 49:21 79:3

83:14 97:3 110:9

144:16 149:8

160:20 230:19

250:9 260:19,20

261:2 281:15

284:21 293:10,11

296:15 297:4

300:20 303:10

311:12 318:14

O

objective 220:19

objects 268:21,22

obligation 79:17

observation 114:21

279:4

observed 77:5

obtaining 23:13

obvious 40:21

42:19 72:20

obviously 19:3

85:10 111:1 149:8

153:9 158:7 182:5

197:3 227:9

248:20 249:5

251:10 266:10

294:8 322:22

occur 317:12

occurred 271:5

occurring 267:2

October 12:21 13:7

44:17

odd 110:13

OEM 23:1 26:18

39:12 61:6 64:18

260:15 265:3

OEMs 264:14

offered 288:13,15

288:22 289:11

offers 325:7

office 6:11 45:5

87:18 153:7 157:1

171:22 258:15

309:8

offices 20:8

offshore 73:14

off-peak 208:6

oh 41:19 79:22

103:7 225:20

311:19

oil 313:10

okay 8:14 9:11

11:20 13:18,21

16:19 18:10 43:17

49:2,2 50:11

51:19 53:17 56:8

59:16 60:22 63:4

67:16 68:9,10

69:11,13 72:5

74:14,18 76:20

83:8,21 89:15

97:6 99:18 100:5

100:10,11 102:22

103:3,4,15,16

109:20 110:10,10

112:13 114:8

116:7 117:14

118:20,21 121:2

121:11,13,13

122:7,13,14

124:22 129:19

130:11,16,21
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170:2 171:8

172:19 173:20

174:5,13 175:4

176:20 177:12,18

183:2 185:9 186:3

186:6 189:22

195:3 196:9

204:11 206:22

207:3 208:4,10,13

210:3,10 213:17

214:13 215:14

217:22 221:18

224:15 225:18

234:10,22 235:3

235:10 237:10,11

238:11 240:4,15

240:21 241:6,7

246:9,21 247:21

249:7,11 250:14

250:18,22 253:16

254:17,19,21

257:21,21 258:19

259:14,17 265:4,7

268:6,9 269:6

277:14 285:16

286:16,20 287:1

290:6,8 291:3,5

297:15 302:5

310:17 311:14

313:13,21 314:14

322:4 324:1,13

old 51:16 62:5,6

65:18 154:6

once 25:17 34:10

51:1 74:8 97:9

120:15 140:20

208:14 235:7

ones 37:7 64:3

112:11 113:1,19

158:8 237:2

291:13

one-for-one 158:1

one-on-one 325:8

one-piece 35:16

online 186:12

Oommen 2:14 5:8

5:8 48:15,15,22

50:17,17 51:11

70:17 99:8,8

110:1 116:22

117:12,15,20

120:5,5 121:2,6

121:12 130:13

166:4,4 189:15

193:16 195:14

234:19 235:1

240:13,16,20,22

241:3 247:15

252:13

open 73:13 148:11

259:10

opening 3:3 8:22

8:22 9:13 13:9

14:2

opens 248:3

operate 29:18 33:1

46:16 51:7 52:8

80:13 98:18

197:15

operated 78:12

294:16

operating 30:12

33:1 114:22

173:11 182:15

191:20 200:10

222:22 224:5,8

243:19 245:2,4,15

246:11,18,20

267:9 274:9 275:1

275:2,18 291:22

293:14 300:13,16

303:2 305:8

318:12

operation 64:5

299:3 300:1

operations 53:2

operators 166:16

opinion 58:15

129:17

opinions 251:6

opportunities 56:2

opportunity 8:21

10:9 14:6 16:1

18:2 167:15 168:7

168:12 227:5

323:11

oppose 273:8

opposite 156:19

283:3

optics 75:17

optimally 84:2,11

optimistically 95:6

optimized 84:13

option 119:7

120:19 121:21

122:5 189:17

263:20

optional 88:7

optionally 87:21

options 51:11 55:8

55:11 62:16 89:11

119:1,18,19,20

120:2 131:14,17

166:10 210:16

282:10

orange 41:17

order 12:17 20:13

22:12,21 77:4

100:19 101:20

192:12 217:19

272:4 278:18

orders 23:5 26:22

organizational 5:4

oriented 181:20

original 19:22

75:12 112:17

originally 52:1

Osram 1:21 5:5

ought 71:9

outage 188:3 295:6

outages 295:8

outcome 135:17

246:15 311:7

outdoor 14:12

17:20 20:5 23:20

23:21 24:2 57:5

57:10 60:10

100:15,17 101:4

101:13,15,19,21

101:22 102:13

103:12 106:7

126:9 128:4,5,9

132:17 172:21,22

187:7,14 188:7,12

195:7,10,15 197:1

197:16,22 207:13

211:7 214:11

225:12 229:16

230:2 231:13,19

238:19 241:16

242:7 243:16,20

244:3,5,5,11,15

245:3,8 246:12,20

246:22 253:8,10

255:22 256:2

266:17 292:10,13

292:22 318:12

outdoors 100:20

101:7 187:19

198:12 200:10

201:5 242:13

248:10

outlier 291:20

outliers 300:21

output 24:19,20

97:19 270:15

outputs 222:17

outright 184:3

outset 14:1 15:18

outside 33:10 42:22

52:6,16 61:11

105:10 199:22

302:21

overall 55:6 124:14

157:9 163:19

171:13 174:20

175:2 213:10

298:8 319:11

overdesign 89:4

91:16 92:1

overlaid 254:18

overlap 317:20

overly 258:17

overview 3:6 9:16

43:19 44:2 120:6

125:1 162:13

165:21 269:15

274:3 320:15

overwhelming

315:22

owners 166:16

241:19,19 242:4,4

242:17,18 292:3

293:8,14

owning 242:22

oxide 307:9

oxides 307:5,8

O'Boyle 2:14 7:15

7:15

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spend 218:8 232:17

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split 28:7 113:2

spoke 118:8,10

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spotlight 174:22

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stamping 53:6,11

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280:1,8,10,17

281:8,13 286:1

298:11,14,14,15

320:10 322:22

323:9

TSLs 212:11,16

279:4 281:19

282:1,4,12 293:8

293:9,11

tube 28:19,21

181:21 182:3,8

turn 18:7 41:7

108:22 221:5,6

269:8 324:21

turning 5:1 11:3

turns 53:5 221:4

two 27:2 29:14

30:15 34:11 42:2

44:18 48:11 49:4

59:22 61:5 65:6

65:16 66:2 67:12

71:16 73:12 78:6

86:6 92:7 93:4

96:3 108:7 115:5

117:10 127:7

133:2 136:20

141:10 158:16,17

164:7 170:14

177:1 185:3 189:2

200:4,4,5 210:2

219:14 223:2

236:20 248:4,15

249:20 250:21

252:14 254:22

255:8,8 261:22

263:17 282:16

287:3 288:20

293:9 296:19

297:7 298:12

299:5 304:19

307:10 309:15

317:22 319:7

323:17

two-thirds 289:3

two-wire 206:13

two-year 23:6

238:17

type 24:13 62:11

74:6 98:1 141:13

182:14 191:15

192:18 196:20

206:12 213:7

237:18 242:22

257:12 295:19

301:2 307:12

types 23:21 62:9

116:2 132:5,6,8

139:20 162:3

222:22 307:7

typical 160:10

173:2 176:11

177:11,16 237:20

typically 84:3,5,12

87:19 88:2 126:12

153:17 162:14

170:20 192:10

194:13 226:19

262:13

typifying 178:19

T-shirt 303:18

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198:21 201:14

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ultimately 250:1

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unacceptable 278:8

unachievable 32:19

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uncertainty 90:3,7

90:11,15 281:22

283:10 306:12

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underrate 89:5

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21:11 33:6 37:22

67:6 72:7 83:13

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193:3 198:15

244:10 260:12

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87:9 166:19 200:2

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142:14 201:9

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unregulated 80:21

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upcoming 270:3

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updated 186:17

273:11 283:9

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upper 254:11

282:10 322:10,19

urban 251:17

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137:21 161:11

226:22 238:20

313:16,17

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30:2 42:17 47:8

47:21 53:4,13

77:3 87:10,21

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106:18 120:7,11

124:14 131:14

146:21 148:4

160:9,18 162:8

164:9,10 165:13

176:3 179:10,15

191:5 192:12,17

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195:11,20 198:8

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299:4 312:12

315:7 318:13

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68:18 69:1 136:11

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218:5

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voltage 51:4 52:18

54:6 77:8,16

78:11 83:22 84:2

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84:16,17,20 98:7

99:1 101:3,12

102:2,8 106:7

110:6 116:18

117:2,5,16 162:5

175:11,14 178:15

187:18 208:20,22

209:1 232:14

voltages 53:22

77:14 84:4,7

98:12,18,21 99:16

voltage/wattage

81:9

volts 51:5 98:9 99:4

100:1 117:3,5

126:3

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129:10 277:9

299:13

volumes 126:4

voluntary 315:1

Vuittons 52:2

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walked 294:5

Walker 2:18 3:10

3:19 6:21,21

64:21 68:15,16

69:6,10 113:14,14

114:8 124:8,9,10

128:19 129:19

130:5,8 131:2,6

135:3,6 136:15

138:16 139:8

140:10 141:5,19

144:9 148:9

158:12 159:17

160:14 162:12

164:16 165:4

166:2 168:14,15

169:1 170:11

174:4 175:6

176:13,16 177:8

178:4 179:7

183:11 186:5,6

190:17 197:5

204:13,18 207:5

208:13 210:11

212:22 213:9,16

214:1,9,14 221:20

234:2,3,13 247:5

290:10,10 320:5,8

320:8 323:6

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13:15 14:8 15:21

27:17 28:13 43:5

61:1 63:5 65:8

71:5,6 73:10

79:21,22 80:1,19

80:20 81:7 83:9

94:8 95:11 114:14

130:14 137:14

143:22 145:13,17

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154:9,12 155:19

157:1 158:5,10

160:3 161:5 166:5

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290:11 291:2

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142:11 147:22

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129:18 130:2

133:17 134:22

135:18 156:16

173:22 182:21,22

192:2,3 193:18,19

223:4 228:3,5,6,7

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30:10 32:7 33:21

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wattage/voltage

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77:11 108:16

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$120 322:11

$125 248:22

$150 248:22 249:17

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$4.7 320:22 322:10

$400 231:20

$50 240:14,20

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170:13 223:10,15

223:17 246:17

1,100 223:14

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182:21

1,500-watt 16:3,4

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233:16

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100 30:11 39:22

40:7 66:12 106:20

110:17 111:15

120:17 132:22,22

228:3,7 320:12

100,000 72:15

100-hour 110:7

100/150 213:3,5

1000 1:11

103 3:8

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177:2,3 178:2,10

231:3 278:17

11,700 182:4

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12,000 182:2

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12:00-12:15 10:2

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120 98:18 126:6

120-volt 188:1

125 3:10

13 99:19

13,000 314:6

130 117:2

14 230:4 242:20

14-year 59:7

15 18:17 39:9 123:5

155:5 160:7 220:4

257:19 258:3

262:17 297:18

304:5,7

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109:17 111:21

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135:11 136:3,4,8

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163:22 179:17

227:19 228:5,6

241:12 250:20

150-volt 77:12

150-watt 32:7,13

33:18 34:6 37:12

47:7,20 48:13,16

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106:20,21 109:9

109:13 110:13,16

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111:16,16 112:1

113:18 118:1

134:2 135:18

228:22 273:12,16

273:21 274:1

320:12

1500 129:15,18

1500-watt 129:12

155 134:19

1554 173:3

1598 102:8

16 224:5

170-watt 34:2

175 109:11 117:2

117:22 134:22

135:18 136:2

175-watt 51:6

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2

2 40:15 113:11

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179:19 212:2

2.3 209:17

2.5 209:18

20 59:12 76:3 106:9

125:20 196:22

197:5,10 207:7

229:15 242:21

260:3 267:15,21

308:17

20,000-hour 171:3

200 134:20 246:19

200-watt 34:2

133:17

2005 51:18

2006 42:7 151:19

256:11,19 257:2

2007 20:12 21:4

38:11 45:21 46:20

93:8 109:12
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2008 39:11,17,22

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2009 41:8 42:3 44:6

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2010 222:20

2011 44:7 102:7

2012 41:10 296:14

308:7

2013 1:8 4:9 12:21

13:7 40:13,14

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2014 44:11

2015 19:19 25:3

27:12 45:2,6,18

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155:22 322:12

2016 308:11

2017 298:13 300:3

301:2,15 304:10

311:10

2018 311:10

2020 298:13 301:19

2040 256:11

2042 151:20

208 98:18

21 241:15

21st 12:21 13:7

22 128:10 129:5

131:4

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228 3:16

24 36:3 159:5

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250 126:20 127:12

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139:3,11 163:22

250-watt 106:22

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241:15 292:13,22

26 167:8,17 180:11

184:10 311:11

269 3:18

27 1:8 124:7

27th 4:9

277 81:15 98:18

126:6

277-volt 77:13

28 204:14 207:4

280 239:19

3

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3:00 123:9

3:27 325:11

30 151:10,15,18

242:16 256:1

267:5 307:13

314:10

30-year 237:5

267:3,8 307:3

311:11 320:18

300 246:19 300:22

31 239:10

319 3:19

320 28:3 30:12

324 3:22

33 320:22

350 161:13 239:2,9

239:18

36 180:20

39 192:3

4

4 3:4 39:9 134:12

141:22 164:3

188:11 210:22

238:19 243:15

290:17

40 160:8,11 186:4,7

239:21

40,000 230:18

400 127:12 162:22

163:14 164:15

173:4,7 192:2

193:18,19

400-watt 28:3,9

30:13,19 139:12

162:22 163:11

164:1 188:6 189:7

191:13 204:4

41 187:4

430 173:7

46 3:7

480 98:9 99:4 100:1

126:3 129:15

130:16

480-volt 35:15,16

47:17 48:6 53:6

98:15 129:9 209:2

209:3,16

480-watt 47:7

5

5 83:14 122:20

210:20 214:2

280:17 281:8,14

5.6 181:17

50 16:7 39:14 47:19

48:1 106:19

129:14 132:21

134:2,4 137:10

166:9 227:20

50,000 230:18

500 47:3,4 107:16

109:11 130:2

133:10 134:5

158:14,19 160:7

179:18 212:1

287:12

500-watt 132:22

134:7 137:11

54 288:10 289:3

555 181:6

56 301:13

6

6 209:4,6,14 210:1

6,000-hour 170:20

171:5

6,836 223:16

6-month 40:14

60 155:6 242:16

7

7,000 238:19

70 127:11,19

163:10,14,21

223:4

70-watt 128:12,16

141:16 253:6

255:18

75 308:17

75-watt 250:7

750 32:11 287:11

750-watt 37:5

76 36:1 301:1

78 141:17

8

8 201:16 320:17

8E-089 1:11

80 73:5 308:11

82 141:17 147:4

85 117:5

850,000 205:18

297:2 313:4

88 33:2 38:16 50:4

67:8 109:15 111:4

111:17 112:10

126:21 133:16,20

135:3,10,12 139:1

165:10

88.0 38:17

89.7s 79:6

9

9,000 182:3

9:00 1:12 4:2

90 28:5 51:4 73:5

79:7 165:11 221:1

90.0 79:7

91 90:14 137:19

91.5 85:17

92 50:2

92.5 38:21

92.6 32:17 38:20

92.7 38:21

95 320:19

99 34:9 35:1,19

91:4,8 92:1 93:18

93:20
NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 

C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript 

In the matter of: 

Before: 

Date: 

Place: 

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under 

my direction; further, that said transcript is a 

true and accurate record of the proceedings. 

 

 ----------------------- Court Reporter 

370

Metal Halide Lamp Fixtures

US DOE

09-27-13

Washington, DC