### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 1

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

950 L'Enfant Plaza Room 6075 Washington, D.C. 20585

Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:10 a.m.

Reported by: Natalia Thomas, Capital Reporting Company

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 PARTICIPANTS 3 Karim Amrane (Air-Conditioning, Heating and 4 Refrigeration Institute) 5 Laura Barhydt (U.S. Department of Energy) 6 John Bean (Schneider Electric) 7 Rod Beever (United CoolAir Corp.) 8 Stuart Dill (Schneider Electric) 9 Kevin Eicher (Friedrich Air Conditioning Co.) 10 Jeremiah Freeman (New West Technologies, LLC) 11 Kevin Grundy (Change'Air Products & Services LTD) 12 Emily Marchetti (U.S. Department of Energy) 13 Ted Marwitz (Data Aire, Inc.) 14 Michael Rivest (U.S. Department of Energy) 15 Wes Roan (Bard Manufacturing Company, Inc.) 16 Corey Tucker (U.S. Department of Energy) 17 Yoolanda Williams (General Electric) 18 Dave Winningham (Allied Air Enterprises) 19 20 21 22

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MS. BARHYDT: Hello. This is Laura Barhydt 3 with U.S. Department of Energy. Thank you all for 4 participating. Currently, we have you all unmuted. 5 So if everybody could just perhaps give a resounding 6 "Yes," you can hear me? I know everybody does not 7 have their phones muted. 8 MS. TUCKER: Yep. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But you can actually 10 hear me? Okay. Well, we're going to mute people. 11 And what we need you to do is if you want to talk, you 12 need to raise your hand using the webinar interface. 13 Go ahead. 14 We will get everybody muted here in just a 15 second. 16 (Pause.) 17 Okay. So today, we're going to be talking about the 18 basic model definitions for SPVUs and CRACs. So what 19 we had so far for the basic model definition for SPVUs 20 is that a basic model means all systems of a given 21 type of covered product or class thereof having the 22 same primary energy source, electric or gas, and which

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 4 1 have the same or comparably performing compressors, 2 condensing coils, evaporator coils, and air-moving 3 systems that have a cooling capacity within 1,500 Btu 4 per hour of one another. 5 And then the real issue today is to discuss 6 what options and/or features may need differential 7 treatment, either through test procedures, enforcement 8 guidance, or some other mechanism. 9 And the list we have up on the screen right 10 now was the list that we had been given previously. 11 So what we're hoping to do is step through each of 12 these for SPVUs. And then we're going to do the exact 13 same thing for the computer room air conditioners. 14 And what we'd like to know is how common these 15 features are in the installed products, how much of an 16 impact they have in the performance under the test 17 procedure, if there are any testing issues in actually 18 using the test procedure to test units that have these 19 features, that type of information. 20 So are you ready, Corey? 21 MS. TUCKER: Yep. 22 MS. BARHYDT: So for copper evaporator

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 5 1 coils, we're going to need a lot of people raising 2 hands on here. And maybe we can keep Karim unmuted. 3 And he can call on people that he knows are 4 participating if we don't get enough volunteers. 5 So the first issue is, what is the impact of 6 copper evaporator coils when using the DOE test 7 procedure on the measured energies? 8 MR. AMRANE: Laura, this is Karim. Are you 9 hearing me? 10 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 11 MR. AMRANE: Okay. I think to start the 12 discussion, the group was hashing what was discussed 13 two weeks ago with the other manufacturers. I think 14 we need to start from what already have that we agreed 15 to last week or two weeks ago and then start from 16 there because I think we have discussed and the 17 Department has taken a position on that. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 19 MR. AMRANE: And maybe that is where we 20 should be starting the discussion. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So my concern with that is 22 twofold. One, there is a different test procedure.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 6 1 And so it may not present the same issues. 2 And then the second is that for these 3 products, potentially the energy impact and the 4 frequency or prevalence of each of these features may 5 be different in SPVUs. Sorry. I have switched from 6 SPVUs to CRAC. So sorry. Let me go back. We are 7 doing the SPVUs first. 8 So I think from our perspective, it is not 9 necessarily one-to-one from what we discussed before 10 to these products. 11 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Well, okay. The 12 feedback I received from the manufacturers is that 13 those products are very similar. And the test 14 procedure, by the way, is very similar. You know, 15 both of them, those are two different AHRI standards, 16 but they make reference to the same actuary test 17 method, method of test. So, again, there is a lot of 18 similarity here. And I just didn't want to waste a lot 19 of time on issues that you have already ruled out. 20 For example, in the case of poor portal, you are 21 saying that the Department -- you know, those would be 22 subject to testing. So I don't think that it's worth

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 7 1 discussing it here as well. I mean, you have made a 2 decision to the other project. I think we should 3 follow the same logic here. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MR. AMRANE: That's all. I mean -- 6 MS. BARHYDT: So are there particular 7 features that you do want to discuss for these? 8 MR. AMRANE: Yes. I think as a starting 9 point, we want the features that were discussed last 10 week or two weeks ago that were, I guess, accepted by 11 the Department. Then we want those features to apply 12 as well to SPVUs. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So can you pull up the 14 discussion from last time? 15 MS. TUCKER: Yes. It's on like several 16 slides. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So for SPVUs, do SPVUs 18 have economizers? 19 MR. AMRANE: Yes, they do. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And how common are they in the 21 install base? 22 MR. AMRANE: Again, I mean, I cannot answer

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 8 1 that question, but I think it is dictated most of the 2 time by the codes. And, you know, those SPVUs fall 3 under the same requirement as the other product, as 4 far as ASHRAE 90.1 is concerned. And this is where 5 the economizer is required, to ASHRAE 90.1. So there 6 is no distinction in ASHRAE 90.1 between SPVU and the 7 other equipment we discussed last week. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So -- 9 MR. AMRANE: So they would be subject to the 10 same kind of -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: So, Karim, you're saying that 12 even though it's different, AHRI standards that are 13 incorporated by reference since they're both building 14 off of 90.1, that the same issues that occur with the 15 unitary for economizers, those same issues exist for 16 testing SPVUs that have economizers? 17 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely. As I said, the 18 test procedure, although it's a different standard, is 19 very similar. So there are some differences. We 20 don't have an IE metric, for example, for SPVU. We 21 have the old IPLV. But other than that, it's the same 22 condition. It's very similar.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 9 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And for the ventilation 2 energy recovery systems, do those exist in SPVUs? 3 MR. AMRANE: They do as well. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And do same conditions 5 exist? And I kind of get the idea that you don't 6 exactly want to walk through each of these, but I 7 think it would be helpful to us if we did. 8 MR. AMRANE: And that's fine. I think some 9 of the manufacturers should be on the call and they 10 should be able to weigh in the discussion because they 11 make the product. They are more familiar than I on 12 exactly how they do it. So I guess we need to open up 13 the discussion to all the manufacturers. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if anyone has some 15 insight on economizers or ventilation energy recovery 16 systems? 17 (No response.) 18 The ventilation energy recovery systems are described 19 as an assembly that preconditions outdoor air entering 20 the equipment through direct or indirect thermal 21 and/or moisture exchange with the exhaust air, which 22 is defined as the building air being exhausted to the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 10 1 outside from the equipment. And so far, we still have 2 no one raising their hand. 3 MS. MARCHETTI: Wes. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Wes? Okay. 5 MR. ROAN: Yes, yes. This is Wes Roan from 6 Bard Manufacturing. We absolutely produce and others 7 in our group produce units with both economizers and 8 ventilation energy recovery systems. They operate 9 very similar to unitary-type units. And this 10 description, as far as I'm concerned, is acceptable. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And can you speak to 12 how common these are in the units that you actually 13 ship? 14 MR. ROAN: I don't have the exact 15 percentages. Certainly with economizers, that is a 16 growing thing because more codes are requiring them. 17 Energy recovery is somewhat geographically an issue. 18 You know, it's more of an issue in the Southern states 19 than it is the Northern states, but it is something 20 that we commonly do. I mean, it's not something we do 21 two a year of. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else with any

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 11 1 other thoughts or input on those before we move on? 2 (No response.) 3 No one else is raising their hand. Okay. 4 So the next slide has three more: process 5 heat recovery; reclaim coils, thermal storage, coated 6 coils; and correction capacitors. For correction 7 capacitors, I believe we said that we would deal with 8 that through test procedure clarification, but for the 9 process heat recovery and reclaim coils, thermal 10 storage, and coated coils for unitary, we were taking 11 a different approach that I think it would be useful 12 for us to get input on both of these. So do you use 13 these in SPVUs? And are there similar testing issues 14 that arise as a result of the similarity of the test 15 procedure to the unitary test procedure? Is Wes still 16 on mute? 17 MS. MARCHETTI: Now he is. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Wes, since you volunteered -- 19 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. 20 MS. BARHYDT: There you go. 21 MR. ROAN: Yes. I can speak to the center 22 with the coated coils. That is a common thing for

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 12 1 hazardous areas, such as coastal environments and 2 other things, other areas that have hazardous air 3 flows. And, just like unitary has the same effect on 4 our equipment, it has the slight degradation of 5 performance initially because of the coating. Long 6 term, it's absolutely the right thing to do because 7 your bins don't degrade and corrode off of the coil. 8 So we do the same. It's the same type of process as 9 unitaries use. 10 And I really can't speak to the other two 11 because we don't produce anything currently that uses 12 those. 13 MS. BARHYDT: For the coated coils, how 14 often are the SPVUs installed in areas where coated 15 coils are needed? 16 MR. ROAN: Well, again, I don't have any 17 percentages, but it's any time you have a coastal 18 environment, any time you have a unit in an industrial 19 setting, where there are chemicals, like a paper mill, 20 for instance, would definitely have them. So, I mean, 21 we do produce units with coated coils on a regular 22 basis.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 13 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. For the process heat 2 recovery; reclaim coils, thermal storage, is there 3 anybody on the phone who actually uses any of those in 4 their SPVUs? 5 MS. MARCHETTI: Ashley is unmuted. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we're not hearing 7 that anyone currently uses those on their SPVUs. 8 Let's go on to the next slide. 9 MS. TUCKER: Should we get rid of that off 10 the list? 11 MS. BARHYDT: Not for now. 12 MS. TUCKER: That's the next slide. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, that's the next slide. 14 Okay. So hail guards. Do SPVUs use hail guards? No 15 comment. 16 MS. MARCHETTI: Dave Winningham. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Dave Winningham, you are 18 unmuted. 19 MR. WINNINGHAM: You have product. You have 20 sell it with product. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So can you try moving the 22 phone back a little or -- I'm not exactly sure. We're

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 14 1 getting feedback when you speak. 2 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. I'm talking through 3 my computer. I have it on the phone, but I'm not sure 4 I could get a box to the phone. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Try it through the phone. 6 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. Hold on. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. No problem. 8 (Pause.) 9 MR. FREEMAN: Hey, Dave. This is Jeremiah. 10 Can you please go to your webinar tool and under the 11 audio dropdown select the telephone button? And then 12 you will see an audio pin displayed there that you 13 will have to enter to be unmuted on the phone. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Now give it a try. 15 Nope. 16 Okay. Dave? We're not getting an echo now. 17 Can you actually hear us? And are you able to speak 18 on the phone? 19 I think we might have lost you, Dave. So 20 I'm going to go ahead and go forward a little bit, but 21 we'll come back to this because we do want to make 22 sure we get your comments on the record. So if there

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 15 1 is anyone who has hail guards that they install on 2 their SPVUs, please let us know. 3 For dehumidification components, is there 4 anyone who installs these on their SPVUs? 5 MR. ROAN: This is Wes again. Can you hear 6 me? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. 8 MR. ROAN: Okay. We definitely have this 9 accessory as well and, again, as needed, but it is 10 definitely an option that is offered in many SPVUs. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And how would we 12 determine whether a unit had dehumidification 13 components? Is that something that is in the model 14 numbers? Is it clearly delineated as a separate 15 feature that someone would order? 16 MR. ROAN: Yes. It's a separate feature 17 that would be in a model number or it could be field18 installed. So if it is field-installed, it will not 19 show up in a model number. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. If it is field21 installed, is it shipped from you or is this an 22 aftermarket from a third party?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 16 1 MR. ROAN: No. It would be shipped from us. 2 MS. BARHYDT: It would be shipped from you? 3 Okay. And if it is field-installed and it is shipped 4 from you, is that something that someone then orders 5 separately as a separate component to add on? 6 MR. ROAN: Well, in our particular 7 situation, they can order it factory-installed and it 8 would come to them installed and operational or they 9 can order it as an accessory and then do it themselves 10 in the field. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I understand. And is 12 the description that we have for dehumidification 13 components sufficient to describe the products that 14 you would offer for dehumidification? 15 MR. ROAN: With one exception that I can 16 see, that some manufacturers, instead of desiccant 17 wheels, they use a plate type of device, not an actual 18 wheel. We don't do that currently, but I know others 19 do. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a term of art that is 21 used to describe that? 22 MR. ROAN: Yes, there is. It's not on the

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 17 1 tip of my tongue. Karim, do you know that? 2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I don't, but we 3 can get back to you, Laura, with maybe an explanation 4 or definition. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. That would be helpful. 6 Thank you. 7 Indoor fan motors. Do you use VFDs on 8 SPVUs? 9 MR. ROAN: We, along with several others, 10 have variable-speed products, variable-speed indoor 11 motors, but they're -- you either do or you don't. We 12 don't have it as an option. It's part of our rated 13 unit or it is not a part of our rated unit -- 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 MR. ROAN: -- if that is what this is 16 dealing with. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So in that case, it 18 would be part of just the standard model design. Is 19 that -- 20 MR. ROAN: Exactly. That is how we would 21 address it. I don't know if anyone else has a 22 different opinion, but that is how we would address

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 18 1 it. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Does anyone else have any 3 thoughts on that? 4 (No response.) 5 MS. BARHYDT: No? Let's try going back to 6 Dave and see if we've got good phone now. 7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. Sorry about that. I 8 would agree with Wes' position. Typically, those are 9 for a larger commercial product than SPVU-type 10 product. And if we were to use it, it would be 11 integral to the product. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And if you want to go 13 back to hail guards? 14 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. I see the position 15 that you've got up there. And I agree with that 16 position. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So you do use hail guards on 18 the units that you make or you offer -- 19 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. 20 MS. BARHYDT: -- it as an option? 21 MR. WINNINGHAM: It's offered as an 22 accessory. It is not standard with the product.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 19 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so I am going to 2 say that, just to everyone who is on the phone who is 3 not familiar with me, I am an attorney. And so if I 4 am asking some questions that seem very basic that 5 everyone should know the answer to, that is why. 6 So for hail guards, does putting a hail 7 guard on an SPVU impact the efficiency in the same way 8 that it would on a unitary unit? 9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. It can impede the air 10 flow over the outdoor section. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay. I think that's 12 everything on this slide. 13 MS. TUCKER: Do you want to remove these 14 from our list? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Condenser fan motor options 16 for ducting. Does anyone offer these with their 17 SPVUs? 18 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We don't, but I 19 know that some of our members did raise that as a 20 concern, that they do offer that. So I don't know if 21 anyone is on the phone, but there were some folks that 22 did offer that.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 20 1 MS. BARHYDT: And would the types of issues 2 be the same for SPVUs as for the unitary? 3 MR. ROAN: Yes. Greater pressure drop 4 definitely would affect the motor horsepower. That's 5 right. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Is there anyone on the phone 7 who actually uses these in their systems? 8 (No response.) 9 Okay. What about steam/hydronic heat options? 10 MR. ROAN: Again, that is an accessory that 11 I know we offer and others do as well. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it would be 13 optional? 14 MR. ROAN: Yes. 15 MS. BARHYDT: And would it be clearly 16 indicated as a model designation or -- 17 MR. ROAN: For our products, it is an add-on 18 option. So it would not be in the basic unit. It 19 would be something that you would attach to the unit. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And do you also have 21 SPVUs that use electric resistant heat, -- 22 MR. ROAN: Yes.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 21 1 MS. BARHYDT: -- instead of hydronic coil? 2 MR. ROAN: Yes, we do. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 4 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney Beever says, "We do 5 use condenser motor with those standard and upgrade 6 options." 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Is he on the phone or 8 is he -- 9 MS. MARCHETTI: He's not on the phone. 10 MS. BARHYDT: He's not on the phone. He's 11 just typing in his message? 12 MS. MARCHETTI: Yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hey, Laura, can you hear me? 15 MS. BARHYDT: Yep. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So two things. One is for 17 the hydronic heat option, the steam option. I think 18 we need to know, is there always an exact electric19 resistant model as well as a steam/hydronic model? So 20 if DOE is going to consider specifying that the test 21 only be on the electric resistance model, is there 22 always a comparable model, like identical model except

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 22 1 for the heat option? 2 MR. ROAN: We offer a hydronic option, a 3 hydronic option that can be attached to the unit. We 4 also offer electric resistance heaters that can be 5 installed in the unit. And that is totally up to the 6 customer how many kW he puts in there, if he puts any 7 at all. So it's a feature. 8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So I think the 9 answer to my question is yes, but, just to, you know, 10 make sure I am understanding, you offer a given model. 11 And that model can come with either electric 12 resistance or hydronic? In other words, there is 13 never a model that is only offered with hydronic? 14 MR. ROAN: I guess that would be true for 15 our product, yes. 16 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Thanks. 17 MS. BARHYDT: That was Wes; right? 18 MR. ROAN: Yes. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know if anyone else 21 wants to chime in on that point, but then I have a 22 question on the previous one about the condenser fan

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 23 1 motor options. 2 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin Grundy had his hand -- 3 MS. BARHYDT: Ken, we are going to unmute 4 you. Okay. You are unmuted. 5 MR. GRUNDY: Yes. Hi. Kevin Grundy at 6 Change'Air System Air. And we, too, would have a 7 steam option that could be either as an add-on or 8 would be integral to unit and which would be 9 designated in the model number if it went out with the 10 unit. If it was an accessory that went out later or 11 was shipped separately with the unit, it wouldn't 12 necessarily be in the model number of the unit. 13 We also do electric resistance heating. And 14 it is possible just to have a hydraulic coil. 15 MS. BARHYDT: So on the systems where you 16 have the hydronic coil, is there always an option to 17 have it without the heat or, rather, to have it with 18 electric resistance or are you saying that where you 19 offer the hydronic coil, that is the standard way of 20 offering that product? 21 MR. GRUNDY: It would typically be one or 22 the other. You would get with a hydronic coil or you

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 24 1 would get electric resistance heat. 2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But that's the same 3 model; right? So for a given design of SPVU, a 4 consumer could get one with electric resistance or one 5 with hydronic, but it's the same base model. In other 6 words, the other components, the evap coil, the 7 condensers, the compressor, et cetera, are the same? 8 MR. GRUNDY: Yes. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay. 10 MS. BARHYDT: And, Ashley, you have a 11 question about condenser fan motors? 12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Just for the person on 13 the webinar -- and he can type in his answer if he'd 14 like, but for the person who says they offer this, I 15 just want to make sure that the larger fan motor you 16 are offering, the condenser fan motor, is offered just 17 for systems where the condenser is going to be -- 18 MS. BARHYDT: I think that was Rodney 19 Beever. If you could respond? 20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great. 21 MS. MARCHETTI: Yes. He's not on the phone. 22 He's going to have to type in.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 25 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We'll give him a minute 2 to type, no pressure. 3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, for this one, it's 4 less of an issue because the static is specific. So 5 even if they -- this would be a test procedure issue 6 but less of an issue. 7 That's all I had. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can keep going. 10 MS. BARHYDT: We'll keep going. And, 11 Rodney, if you have a response, we will read that in 12 when you are ready. 13 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney says, "All of our 14 SPVU units are designed for an indoor application. 15 And the condenser air is ducted in and out." 16 MS. BARHYDT: Did that answer your question, 17 Ashley? 18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it does, more or less. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Gas reheat. 20 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We absolutely have 21 it, as do many of our competitors. 22 MS. BARHYDT: And how much of an impact does

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 26 1 this have on the efficiency? 2 MR. ROAN: It's pretty minimal at test 3 conditions. Typically, it is an additional coil in 4 the airstream, which is pressure drop, which raises 5 evaporator watts a little bit. So there is an impact, 6 but it is pretty minimal. 7 MS. BARHYDT: And how common is this? 8 MR. ROAN: It is very common. Again, it is 9 geographical. There is an awful lot of this applied 10 in the Southern states, where humidity is more of an 11 issue, although in Ohio today, it should be here. So 12 it is one of those things that is geographical. It is 13 a common thing but not nearly the predominant product 14 that we make. 15 MS. BARHYDT: And is it always offered as an 16 option on the model or are there any designs where you 17 offer it with this feature? 18 MR. ROAN: We typically offer it with or 19 without this feature. It's a different product if 20 it's -- it's ordered by the customer either with or 21 without a gas reheat. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Barometric relief,

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 27 1 powered exhaust, and powered return air. Actually, I 2 think we ended up dealing with these separately. So 3 let's take them one at a time. Barometric relief. Is 4 this something that is offered with SPVUs? 5 (No response.) 6 Okay. What about -- 7 MR. ROAN: One comment on that. I mean, we 8 have a lot of systems that can bring in outdoor air 9 and exhaust outdoor air. And in many of them, it is - 10 - I mean, we bring in outdoor air. The exhaust is a 11 barometric thing. I mean, the pressure of the room 12 will have an effect on how much air is exhausted from 13 the product. It's not a powered exhaust. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So -- 15 MR. ROAN: I guess the answer to that 16 question 17

-- 18 MS. BARHYDT: -- it's a passive system? 19 MR. ROAN: I'm sorry? 20 MS. BARHYDT: It's a passive system? 21 MR. ROAN: Right. The indoor blower will 22 draw in outdoor air through a filtered system. And

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 28 1 then it is exhausted just naturally from barometric 2 means. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And is that something 4 you offer frequently or is that something that is 5 added on after? 6 MR. ROAN: It can be added on after or it 7 can be factory-installed. And I would say it is a 8 medium accessory that's ordered. It's not on every 9 unit, but there are a good number of them sold. 10 MS. BARHYDT: What about powered exhaust or 11 powered return air? 12 MR. ROAN: We definitely have some powered 13 exhaust products as well, less than the barometric 14 relief. And powered return air, I guess my definition 15 of that, I mean, would -- I don't think we have 16 anything in our arsenal that fits that particular 17 product. We have normal return air coming into our 18 units that's drawn by the evaporator blower but not 19 something that is powered into it. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Does anyone else have 21 any comments on that? 22 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin at Change'Air. Our

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 29 1 powered exhaust again is sometimes a separate assembly 2 that is sold as an accessory to the unit. But it also 3 can be sold integral to the unit. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So on the ones that are part 5 of the unit, is that an option or do you just have 6 certain designs where you have designed it so that it 7 incorporates powered exhaust? 8 MR. GRUNDY: Both. Any unit can have the 9 option. But there are certain ones, like something 10 that might have energy recovery in it, where it would 11 have a powered exhaust as well. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone else? 13 (No response.) 14 Okay. Thank you. 15 Fresh air dampers? 16 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We absolutely have 17 them. 18 MS. BARHYDT: How common are they? 19 MR. ROAN: They're becoming less common. 20 They used to be very common, but they're becoming less 21 common as more folks have energy recovery, economizer22 type designs, but they still are out there.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 30 1 MS. BARHYDT: And is that something that you 2 offer as an add-on to an existing model? 3 MR. ROAN: It could be an add-on or it could 4 be a factory install. 5 MS. BARHYDT: And for the ones that are 6 factory-installed, is that an option or do you have 7 some designs that are just set up that way? 8 MR. ROAN: It's an option. For us, it's an 9 option. 10 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin at Change'Air. Our 11 primary line is Univentilator. So every one of the 12 SPVUs has a fresh air damper. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else? 14 (No response.) 15 High-efficiency air filtration. 16 MR. ROAN: This is one where we have several 17 different options for air filters with different MERV 18 ratings. So, again, it's a customer-selected option. 19 In this case for us, it would be all factory20 installed. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So when you ship units, 22 you ship them with an air filter?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 31 1 MR. ROAN: Yes. I don't think there's 2 anything we ship that doesn't have an air filter in 3 it. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so you have sort of 5 a base option on the filtration, and then you have a 6 variety of options that they can choose from? 7 MR. ROAN: Yes. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone else? 9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. 10 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin at Change'Air. You know, 11 Wes is doing a good job speaking for the industry. I 12 mean, you don't need me to comment and chime in on 13 everything, do you? 14 MS. BARHYDT: No. It's up to you. 15 MR. GRUNDY: We don't do anything like 16 AHAPE. If that is what the indication is, there's 17 nothing like AHAPE, but there definitely are higher 18 MERV ratings available in the units. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Again, I mean, 21 maybe Wes can chime in here on the test procedure 22 itself, the HR-3390 standard. I think it's similar to

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 32 1 340 through 68 if I'm not mistaken. And I don't think 2 it's specified that you have to test with or without 3 an air filter. I'm not sure. Maybe Wes can confirm 4 that if it's the case, then maybe we would need some 5 sort of I guess clarification, like we agreed to do in 6 the -- 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. This would be like the 8 large unitary, not like the small that have it 9 specified in the test procedure? 10 MR. AMRANE: Right. We need to double11 check. I'm not sure. I don't have a standard in front 12 of me. But I would assume it's very similar to 340/360 13 standard. And I don't think it has a default value 14 for the pressure drop, anything like that. But maybe 15 Wes or somebody else who is not familiar with the test 16 procedure can correct me. 17 MR. ROAN: I don't have it in front of me 18 either, Karim, but I don't believe it has a default 19 pressure -- 20 MR. AMRANE: Right. 21 MR. ROAN: -- if you don't have an air 22 filter, but I could be wrong.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 33 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We will take a look at 2 that as well. 3 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney Beever has a comment. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Yes? 5 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney says, "All of our 6 units have filters. However, on prior calls, there 7 was an indication to specify a MERV rating for the 8 test procedure." 9 MS. BARHYDT: So we did have some discussion 10 about MERV ratings. We also had someone raise an issue 11 that a filter that has a certain MERV rating may -- 12 there may be different designs with the same MERV 13 rating that cause different pressure drops. So we 14 were going to look at that some more. And it's also 15 just we were going to go back and look at what the 16 various test procedures specify. So there was some 17 discussion about MERV ratings, but there wasn't a 18 final decision on that. 19 Hot gas bypass. 20 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. Once again, this is 21 a pretty common design. Bard doesn't typically 22 manufacture this today, but we have in the past.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 34 1 Others do presently. And it's an option that's fairly 2 low-volume. So it is out there. 3 MS. BARHYDT: But you would expect that 4 where it exists, there would be another version of the 5 same model that offered it without it? 6 MR. ROAN: Right. This is a specific 7 product for a specific use. Typically it's for a very 8 low temperature operation. So you would have a 9 standard model of that unit without hot gas bypass 10 that you could test. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Sound traps, sound 12 attenuators. 13 MR. ROAN: Absolutely have them in several 14 of our products, as well as our competitors. There is 15 more and more of this type of item built into units 16 all along now. 17 MS. BARHYDT: So are they options or are 18 they becoming so prevalent that you're just offering 19 them standard? 20 MR. ROAN: Both. There are some that are 21 optional. There are some that are built into the 22 products.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 35 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. ROAN: It just depends how quiet you are 3 trying to get a particular product. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And so when you say they are 5 built in, I guess what I am wondering is, is it 6 something where when you design the model, you just 7 automatically design it with the sound traps in it or 8 is it still something that's optional for someone to 9 specify? 10 MR. ROAN: Well, again, I think we have 11 cases for both. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Both. Okay. 13 MR. ROAN: I mean, I know we have -- like I 14 said, those are competitors that have a lot of sound 15 attenuating devices inside the product as standard 16 equipment. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I just wanted to make 18 sure. 19 MR. ROAN: And there are others that are 20 accessories. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Fire smoke isolation 22 dampers.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 36 1 MR. ROAN: We don't typically do this, but I 2 am not sure if others in this category do. I'll leave 3 that to others. 4 MR. GRUNDY: This is Kevin at Change'Air. 5 We have had only a couple of incidences where it was 6 required by the fire code that the fresh air damper be 7 a fire-rated isolation damper type. So that was 8 specified into the unit. 9 MS. BARHYDT: And so in those cases it was 10 basically a model you already offered and you added 11 this on to it or did -- 12 MR. GRUNDY: We replaced the existing style 13 damper with a fire isolation-type damper, yes. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else with 15 comments on hot gas bypass, sound traps, or fire 16 isolation dampers? 17 MR. GRUNDY: There is a -- it's not really - 18 - I guess it's a type of hot gas bypass that is being 19 touted out there that we see specified and ask for 20 specifically one manufacturer that makes a product. 21 It's used for dehumidification and for low conditions. 22 I don't know if it would fall under hot gas bypass

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 37 1 exactly or not. If it doesn't fall under that 2 category, I'm pretty sure it won't fall into any 3 other. But it is an add-on. It's something that is 4 specified and then offered into the unit, just like 5 the hot gas bypass is. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it's an add-on, and 7 it provides dehumidification? 8 MR. GRUNDY: Yes. It changes the way the 9 unit cycles and the load variance on the evaporator. 10 MS. BARHYDT: And, to your knowledge, there 11 is only one manufacturer offering this right now? 12 MR. GRUNDY: To my knowledge, it's only one. 13 I can give you the name. And maybe that's not 14 necessary. 15 MS. BARHYDT: It might be helpful if -- it 16 sounds like everybody knows that this is available. 17 MR. GRUNDY: Sure. It's RAW Devices. It's 18 called an APR valve. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you. 20 Extended wall sleeves. That was PTACs. UV 21 lights. 22 MR. GRUNDY: One time on extended wall

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 38 1 sleeves. There are some SPVU products that do have 2 sleeves. They go through, penetrate through, the 3 wall. So it's not specifically to PTAC. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the SPVU is 5 installed in the wall? 6 MR. ROAN: There are some SPVUs that are 7 installed on the inside of the wall, some on the 8 outside of the wall, through the wall. So there are 9 some products that do incorporate wall sleeves. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the -- 11 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave, Allied. I 12 agree with Wes' statement. There are absolutely 13 products that are installed with wall sleeves. And 14 they do vary in thickness. 15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Maybe for Dave 16 and Wes, I mean, should we be more specific in terms 17 of what's the normal depth to know what the extended 18 wall sleeve should be, the range? Is it similar to 19 PTAC or should we have a different range in that? 20 MR. WINNINGHAM: Currently, Karim, we don't 21 test with wall sleeves within the program, but they 22 are part of the installation.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 39 1 MS. BARHYDT: So when you test them right 2 now, you're not testing them in a wall sleeve? 3 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, I'm saying for the 4 audit test program, we do not test them in a wall 5 sleeve. And it's somewhat dependent on what type of 6 product. You know, there are variations of products. 7 And I'm just trying to think. We have two different 8 types of product. Both of them use wall sleeves, but 9 in the one case, the wall sleeve has no effect on 10 performance. In the other case, it can have an 11 effect. 12 While for our product, I don't believe that 13 the wall sleeve has a major effect on performance, I'm 14 just trying to think of other manufacturers and how 15 they may do it and if it would affect their product. 16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I guess the 17 question for DOE here is a little bit different than 18 for PTACs because it appears I think that the majority 19 of SPVUs do not come with wall sleeves. The question 20 is, should we exempt the sleeves from the definition 21 so that DOE doesn't have to test with sleeves 22 altogether?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 40 1 MR. ROAN: That would be my recommendation - 2

- 3 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. 4 MR. ROAN: -- just because there is such a 5 wide variety of products and thicknesses of sleeves 6 from virtually nothing to you have an extremely thick 7 wall to a pretty thick one or pretty long one. 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. 9 MS. BARHYDT: That was Wes? 10 MR. ROAN: Yes. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Just making sure. 12 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin Eicher has a -- 13 MR. WINNINGHAM: I would agree with that 14 position. This is Dave. 15 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin Eicher says, "We offer 16 different thickness wall sleeve options. The standard 17 offering would be the maximum of eight." 18 MS. BARHYDT: Eight inches? And, Dave, what 19 was that? 20 MR. WINNINGHAM: I said I was in agreement 21 with Wes and Karim that I really don't think that the 22 wall sleeve should be part of the test or audit

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 41 1 process. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So right now I gather 3 that the test procedure doesn't say anything about 4 wall sleeves. And some of these are sold with wall 5 sleeves? 6 MR. WINNINGHAM: Again, this is Dave. The 7 wall sleeves are an accessory. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Going back to a prior 10 question, static pressure in regard to the filter is 11 in the standard. And it's .08. It's similar to 210 12 and 13 240. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 15 MR. WINNINGHAM: There is an adjustment of 16 .08 with or without a filter. 17 MR. AMRANE: This is good. 18 MS. BARHYDT: What was that, Karim? 19 MR. AMRANE: Yes. That is good. So at 20 least there is something that you can account for, at 21 least a default value, which is good. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Okay. Anything else on

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 42 1 wall sleeves? 2 (No response.) 3 Okay. UV lights? Are SPVUs offered with UV lights? 4 MR. GRUNDY: This is Kevin at Change'Air. 5 We have been investigating it. We have seen requests 6 of it. But at present, we don't have it in one of our 7 models. But we have definitely seen the large 8 interest from the industry to have them included. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And high-static indoor 10 blowers, oversized motors. We heard a lot about 11 special applications for unitary. Do SPVUs have the 12 same sorts of demands? 13 MR. ROAN: This is Wes again. I'm not sure. 14 From our standpoint, we basically don't offer these. 15 But I don't know if there are other -- there are a lot 16 of different styles of SPVUs. And there may be some 17 out there that do offer this type of product. 18 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone on the phone or on the 19 webinar who offers this sort of feature with their 20 SPVU? 21 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin has a comment. I will 22 unmute him.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 43 1 MS. BARHYDT: Kevin, you are unmated. 2 MR. EICHER: Yes. We have seen the requests 3 for this. And we are investigating it, but we 4 currently do not offer any high-static lower options 5 in our SPVUs. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And -- 7 MR. GRUNDY: This is Kevin Grundy, 8 Change'Air. What would be defined as a high-static 9 blower, though, as opposed to -- can someone comment 10 on that? 11 MS. BARHYDT: The discussion previously was 12 that there were certain designs that had a standard 13 fan assembly but that they would get a request to have 14 a different type of blower motor installed in order to 15 deal with a higher static pressure within the 16 building. 17 MR. GRUNDY: We definitely have that and see 18 that often, rather than the .15 inches of water column 19 or, you know, whatever the standard is for the test 20 parameters for that tonnage of unit. We definitely do 21 have requests from the industry where they wanted to 22 design a round of .5 static, say. I've even seen as

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 44 1 high as .75 external duct static. So it's necessary 2 to provide them with a higher horsepower blower or 3 bigger fan to accommodate their need. So if that's 4 what you mean by high-static indoor blower and 5 oversized motors, I guess that's very common. 6 MS. BARHYDT: So in those cases, do you have 7 certain designs where you just design them to provide 8 that functionality or do you take existing models and 9 you basically just up the power on the blower and 10 motor? 11 MR. GRUNDY: We would take existing models 12 and we would up the power. And we would increase the 13 horsepower or the fan to accommodate the specification 14 that comes through. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 16 MR. GRUNDY: We would offer it with a 17 standard that would meet the minimum test requirement. 18 And then anything beyond that would be an option that 19 would be an addition to the unit. And it wouldn't be 20 reflected in the model number. 21 MS. BARHYDT: It would not? 22 MR. GRUNDY: No.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 45 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But that would be 2 something that would be specified when ordered? 3 MR. GRUNDY: Absolutely. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And would your I guess 5 marketing materials describe what the standard motor 6 was? 7 MR. GRUNDY: Absolutely. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 9 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney Beever has a comment, 10 "United Cool Air SPVU offers upgraded evaporator 11 blower motors to accommodate the higher static 12 pressures. Our standard motor is offered at .25 13 inches. We see requests up to two inches ESP." 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, Rodney, in your 15 case, it would also be the situation where you would 16 have a standard motor and you would state what that 17 standard motor is, but you would offer people an 18 option of getting a higher horsepower motor? 19 MS. MARCHETTI: Yes. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you. 21 MS. MARCHETTI: And Yoolanda Williams also 22 has a comment on wall sleeves. "General Electric SPVU

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 46 1 installations require a wall plenum to contain the 2 units. The plenum is supplied separately as a kit." 3 MR. RIVEST: It's required in all cases. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So, Yoolanda, in that case, it 5 sounds like that would be the standard, the way they 6 are offered standard, since you indicated that that is 7 in all cases? No response? 8 (No response.) 9 Okay. Any other comments on any of these options? 10 (No response.) 11 Okay. That was the last of them? 12 MS. TUCKER: Yes. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, thank you very 14 much to the manufacturers who joined us who make 15 SPVUs. We're going to basically go through the exact 16 same sort of thing for computer room air conditioners 17 now. 18 Actually, before we do that, are there any 19 other options or features that anyone wants to raise 20 for SPVUs? 21 MR. GRUNDY: Yes. It's Kevin at Change'Air. 22 We talked about energy recovery cores and the fixed

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 47 1 plate-type core. And we do offer that in our unit as 2 well. I know there was a comment about the rotary 3 wheels. But we have an option of the fixed-plate 4 cores as well. 5 MS. BARHYDT: And that was under 6 dehumidification? 7 MR. GRUNDY: I had joined at that time. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Was that under 9 dehumidification? Okay. 10 MR. ROAN: And this is Wes. One other 11 comment. Thanks for that definition of the fixed12 plate heat exchangers. We do manufacture a model that 13 has a digital compressor and an unloading feature. So 14 depending on the internal load of the structure and 15 the outdoor temperature, it fluctuates in capacity 16 from 20 percent to 100 percent or even above 100 17 percent. So typically today we have it rated with 18 AHRI. It can be tested at 95 degrees under the test 19 procedure, but it is a completely different file of 20 product being tested with an indoor controller that we 21 supply. It's very much a different style of product. 22 MS. MARCHETTI: Yoolanda Williams has a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 48 1 comment. 2 MS. WILLIAMS: Hello? 3 MS. BARHYDT: Thanks, Wes. 4 Yoolanda? 5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Hi. I, first of all, 6 want to go back to your question. I think you had a 7 follow-up regarding the plenums. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And basically that is 10 required for installations. And the plenum type or 11 size will vary based on the wall thickness, but it's 12 basically just to contain the unit. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So in your case, they 14 are always shipped with the plenum? 15 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, it would have to be 16 ordered separately. So you would have the unit 17 itself. 18 And then the plenum would be shipped 19 separately, but it would be ordered and it would be 20 based on the thickness of the wall. But yes, they 21 would need to order both of those: The unit as well 22 as a plenum.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 49 1 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. But I don't 2 believe that the unit is tested with the plenum, 3 though, is it? No. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Is Yoolanda still on mute? Go 5 ahead, Yoolanda. 6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. We have conducted our 7 testing with the plenum. 8 MR. AMRANE: Do we -- I'm sorry. I just 9 wanted to make sure that whatever ratings you have on 10 your product account for that because that is how DOE 11 is going to test your unit if it comes with a plenum. 12 MS. BARHYDT: So this is Laura. My 13 understanding was that Yoolanda was saying that that 14 is how they test and rate them. 15 MS. WILLIAMS: I will confirm that as far as 16 the ratings. We have conducted some tests with it. 17 And I will verify regarding the actual rating that is 18 submitted to AHRI with that. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. If you want to get back 20 to either us or to Karim with that later, that would 21 be great. 22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Will do.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 50 1 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 2 MR. GRUNDY: Regarding the exterior wall 3 sleeve, doesn't the testing have to be done with the 4 exterior louver? That would require, then, the 5 exterior wall sleeve to connect the unit to the 6 louver? 7 MS. BARHYDT: Who is speaking right now? 8 MR. GRUNDY: I beg your pardon. Kevin 9 Grundy at Change'Air. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you. 11 So what I had understood previously was 12 that the test procedure does not specify that it is 13 tested with the wall sleeve, but it sounds like that 14 you are suggesting that it is tested with at least the 15 exterior 16

-- 17 MR. GRUNDY: Exterior louver. Maybe someone 18 can comment on that, like maybe Wes or somebody that 19 is more familiar with the standard. I am just scoping 20 through it right now. I thought it stated that it had 21 to be tested with the exterior louver. 22 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave at Allied. I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 51 1 am just reviewing the current AHRI ratings. And there 2 is really nothing in the current standard that 3 specifies an additional external accessory wall 4 sleeve. If it's integral to the product, it will be 5 tested as such. But in looking at ratings -- and I am 6 reviewing several different manufacturers. It's just 7 the basic unit that is listed. I don't see ratings 8 that -- you know, typically within AHRI, if you have 9 an accessory that is required with the rating, it is 10 designated kind of as a plus, a certain accessory. 11 And I don't see those listed within the current AHRI 12 ratings. And I don't believe there's anything within 13 the standard that specifies the tests with those 14 unless they are an integral part of the product, the 15 basic product. 16 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. I concur with Dave. 17 That's how it's been conducted in the past. That is 18 how testing has been conducted in the past, certainly 19 on the models that we have produced. 20 MR. GRUNDY: Would you give me the courtesy 21 if I read 523, 390 and see if maybe I'm 22 misinterpreting it? Outside air flow rate. So what

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 52 1 am I in in 5 here? Test requirements. Outside air 2 flow rate. "A standard rating shall be determined at 3 the outside air flow rate specified by the 4 manufacturer when the fan drive is adjustable. Where 5 the fan drive is nonadjustable, standard ratings shall 6 be determined at the outdoor side air flow rate 7 inherent in the equipment when operated with all the 8 resistance elements associated with the inlets, 9 louvers, and any ductwork, and attachments considered 10 by the manufacturer as normal installation practice. 11 Once established, the outside air circuit of the 12 equipment shall remain unchanged throughout the test 13 described herein." Perhaps I am misinterpreting that. 14 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave again. Just 15 looking at the current ratings within AHRI and how the 16 audit tests are conducted, as I understand them today, 17 I don't believe they are typically conducted with 18 accessories. Now, I am not disputing what you just 19 read there either. So maybe there is some -- 20 MR. GRUNDY: And I would concur. I have not 21 seen them tested that way when we have taken our units 22 down either. I don't know why it's excluded, but it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 53 1 might be something that needs to be addressed before 2 we just leave it. I mean, that's what we're here for; 3 right? 4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. Agree. 5 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. I think one of the 6 issues that we have had in the past is the tremendous 7 difference in designs of accessories. In other words, 8 manufacturer might supply a wall sleeve and even an 9 outdoor louver or they may get those products from 10 some aftermarket provider, especially grills. I mean, 11 they oftentimes buy grills from a grill manufacturer 12 direct in whatever kind of construction they want. So 13 that's something that's out of the manufacturer's 14 control. 15 MR. WINNINGHAM: Absolutely. I would agree 16 with that. Even the wall sleeve itself sometimes is - 17

- 18 MR. ROAN: Absolutely. Yes. 19 MR. WINNINGHAM: -- is built, yes, on site. 20 MS. BARHYDT: If everybody could state your 21 name? Because we're getting a lot of agreement and we 22 have no idea who is agreeing.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 54 1 MR. ROAN: Okay. Wes agrees. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Wes wasn't the only one. 3 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin Grundy brought up the 4 definition. And I would have to agree that there are 5 many different louvers offered, supplied by others. 6 MS. BARHYDT: And I think there was somebody 7 else who agreed, too. 8 MR. WINNINGHAM: This was Dave Winningham. 9 I offered comments, you know, in regard to how the 10 current tests are conducted and how the current AHRI 11 directory is structured. And it basically has just 12 the units listed. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you all. Do try 14 and be aware of identifying yourselves. Our 15 stenographer is sitting here trying to recognize all 16 of your voices. And I think she is doing a fabulous 17 job, but it does get a little bit confusing. 18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Agree. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So are there any other issues 20 that anyone wants to raise for SPVUs? 21 (No response.) 22 Okay. Then we will go ahead and move on to computer

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 55 1 room air conditioners. And will it be the same people 2 who are interested in this or are you guys who have 3 been so helpful providing comments so far? Are you all 4 not making these products? 5 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham. 6 We do not make computer room equipment. 7 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We don't as well. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it sounds like we 9 may have a different group of people who are wanting 10 to comment on the computer room air conditions. 11 MS. MARCHETTI: Yoolanda Williams and Wes. 12 Do you want me to -- 13 MR. AMRANE: Yes. This is Karim. There 14 should be able to be folks on the phone that 15 manufacture computer room A/C that should be able to 16 weigh in on the discussion. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And, Yoolanda, you are 18 also unmated. 19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I just wanted to let 20 you know that General Electric does not make the 21 computer room A/Cs. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, going back to I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 56 1 guess the beginning of the list, are computer room air 2 conditioners offered with economizers or ventilation 3 energy recovery systems? Who do we have on the phone? 4 If you make computer room air conditioners, please 5 raise your hand so we can get you unmated. 6 MR. BEAN: You have John Bean from Schneider 7 Electric. I believe I have been unmated. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Anyone else? 9 MR. BEAN: I do have a colleague with me as 10 well, Stuart Dill. So you have got two people from 11 Schneider. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you. And do you 13 put economizers or ventilation energy recovery systems 14 on your computer room air conditioners? 15 MR. BEAN: We certainly have computer room 16 air conditioners with economizers. We do not 17 typically have ventilation energy recovery systems, 18 though. 19 MR. DILL: Not within our product. Now, 20 some of the other vendors, Emerson or some of the 21 others, may do something as a custom, one-off kind of 22 solution, not catalogued, but I don't think most of us

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 57 1 are doing VERS systems. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And so the economizers, how 3 common is that? 4 MR. BEAN: So it's becoming -- there are a 5 couple of methods of economization. We have the 6 liquid-side economization with a CRAC unit that has an 7 extra coil in it that can leverage the cooler fluids 8 produced by either a dry cooler or a cooling tower 9 during the fall and/or winter months. And then there 10 are some vendors -- and we don't do this either, but 11 there are some vendors that have an air-mixing box on 12 top of their computer room air conditioner. And they 13 can mix outdoor air. And then they do have an exhaust 14 scheme as well. 15 I would say the first system I described is 16 more common than the latter system. You know, they 17 are not so common to see computer room air 18 conditioners ducted through the wall with mixing boxes 19 on them. 20 MR. DILL: I had hoped, though, that we were 21 going to have some folks from Emerson on this call and 22 maybe Data Aire as well.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 58 1 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted Marwitz from 2 Data Aire. I just got unmated. 3 MR. DILL: Oh, great. 4 MR. MARWITZ: The second system you 5 described, we actually do make, the one that's ducted 6 to the wall with a mixing box on top of the unit. We 7 do make that. I don't know about any other 8 manufacturers. 9 MR. BEAN: I think Emerson may have an offer 10 in that space as well. And I think Stulz may also do 11 something. So I think there are a couple of 12 manufacturers that offer that as well. I don't know 13 how widespread it is just yet, though; right? 14 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. It's not a big part of 15 our product line, but we do offer it. 16 MR. BEAN: Sure. I think you would agree, 17 though, the fluid-side economizer; right, where you've 18 got the economizer foil or whatever term you want to 19 use, is a lot more common; right? 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So until we get 21 familiar with your voices, if you could state your 22 name before you speak?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 59 1 MR. BEAN: I apologize. John Bean. 2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I 3 would agree with John. We do offer a lot more of the 4 liquid economizers. 5 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I would like to 6 add as well that the codes also are changing. And 7 there are now requirements that are popping up 8 requiring economizers on this type of product. So it 9 is going to be more and more the norm than the 10 exceptions. 11 MS. BARHYDT: And so the codes apply to 12 conditioning air for the computer rooms as well as 13 just for the general building comfort cooling? 14 MR. AMRANE: Yes. I mean, this is Karim 15 again. As you recall, Laura, I mean, ASHRAE 90.1, for 16 example, extended scope to include computer room air. 17 And just how do you read ended up regularly in the 18 computer room A/C. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Right. 20 MR. AMRANE: So now as part of 90.1, 90.1 21 has put some requirements on economizers as well as 22 would apply to computer room A/C. So that's what it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 60 1 is. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so for the systems 3 that have the economizers, is that something that you 4 just incorporate in your standard system or is that 5 something that is an add-on that customers 6 specifically request? 7 MR. BEAN: So John Bean, Schneider Electric. 8 We treat it as an optional feature for our products 9 and when they pick that option because there is an 10 extra coil in the airstream that is not there in the 11 basic model group. The performance of the machine in 12 normal non-economizer mode of operation does change 13 because of the extra air flow resistance of the coil. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So when you put in that extra 15 coil, do you automatically change out some of the fan 16 motors or it just has an impact on the performance? 17 MR. BEAN: It has an impact on the 18 performance. We use primarily electronically 19 commutated fan motors, which are basically a VFD, if 20 you would, integral to the fan motor. So we have the 21 ability to adjust the RPM of the fan to compensate and 22 maintain the same air flow. However, there is a

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 61 1 change in the power consumption or the fan to -- 2 again, John Bean here, Schneider Electric. I'm sorry. 3 But there is a hit on power consumption to get the air 4 flow back to catalogue data with the extra coil in the 5 air flow. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted Marwitz from Data 8 Aire. I agree with everything that John just said. 9 We do also use the electronic commutated motors with 10 the built-in VFD, but we also use fixed-speed motors. 11 And at times, we have to actually put in a larger 12 motor, which also gives you a hit on the energy usage. 13 MS. BARHYDT: But for your systems as well, 14 this would be an option that someone would add on or 15 do you have some -- 16 MR. MARWITZ: It's an option. It's an 17 option they have to order at the time of order. It's 18 integrally built into the unit before it ships from 19 our factory. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But you would have 21 basically the same system offered that did not have an 22 economizer in it?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 62 1 MR. MARWITZ: That's true. This is Ted from 2 Data Aire. That's true. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else who has any 4 information they would like to add about economizers? 5 And does anyone use the VERS? No? 6 (No response.) 7 Okay. What about process heat recovery, reclaim 8 coils, thermal storage. And the description of what 9 we're referring to is listed there on your screen. Do 10 computer room air conditioners use any of these 11 systems? 12 MR. BEAN: So I hate being the guy that goes 13 first all the time, but I'll go ahead and chime in; 14 right? So we do use some heat exchangers located 15 inside the equipment. Periodically, they could use an 16 external source for cooling. We'll call them dual17 cooled units. That is kind of an interesting thing. 18 We also have hot gas reheat coils, which is maybe not 19 particularly targeted by this description. I'm not 20 sure, although -- 21 MS. BARHYDT: No. The hot gas reheat, I 22 think, is later in the list.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 63 1 MR. BEAN: All right. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And was this Ted? 3 MR. BEAN: No. This was John Bean, 4 Schneider Electric. 5 MS. BARHYDT: That was John. Okay. Sorry 6 about that. 7 MR. BEAN: Sorry. 8 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 9 We do not use any of the processed heat recovery 10 reclaim coils, but we do, as John mentioned, the hot 11 gas reheat. I know that is later on. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about coated 13 coils? 14 MR. BEAN: John with Schneider Electric. 15 Yes. We have two different types of coatings. And I 16 think most of the other vendors will be in this same 17 camp; right? We have a treatment that we do to the 18 bin stock that is a hydrophilic bin treatment, which 19 could be considered a coating but is a normal feature 20 of the coil itself. And we, additionally, have 21 phenolic-type coatings from time to time where after 22 the coil is fabricated, it is sprayed on the coil. So

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 64 1 we have two different types of coated coils that we 2 deal with. 3 MS. BARHYDT: And are those offered as 4 options or do you have any models where those come 5 standard? 6 MR. BEAN: So for Schneider Electric -- John 7 Bean here for Schneider Electric -- the hydrophilic 8 pretreatment of the aluminum bin stock, that is just a 9 standard force. We just do that on some models that 10 it just comes that way because of the advantages that 11 come with it. We can do as an option basically an ETO 12 solution, where we would go, send a coil out to a 13 third party to get it coated with this phenolic 14 coating, and then install it in the product. 15 The latter, the latter, the phenolic 16 coatings, do have an effect on the heat transfer of 17 the coil. And they do slightly diminish the 18 performance of the product. And they are kind of rare 19 for us. But I'll let the other guys speak what 20 they're dealing with. 21 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 22 We do offer both. They're both options for us.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 65 1 They're not part of our standard. And I think I agree 2 with everything else John said there. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And do you offer 4 computer room air conditioners that have correction 5 capacitors on them? 6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 7 I'll go first this time, John. We do offer it. It is 8 an option. It's not a highly used option, but we do 9 offer it. 10 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. I 11 think this would be so rare it would be an ETO, an 12 engineered-to-order, type activity for us that we 13 don't presently offer this as a configurable option. 14 It would be, "Hey, you've got to call us and ask us to 15 do this." 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 18 That is the same for us too, John. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone else on the call for 20 computer room air conditioner? No? 21 (No response.) 22 Okay. What about hail guards? Do computer room air

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 66 1 conditioners come with hail guards? 2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 3 No. They're indoor. We have them on our condensers 4 but not on the evap section. 5 MS. BARHYDT: But you would offer them on 6 the condensers? 7 MR. MARWITZ: It's not really a hail guard. 8 I will retract that. It's more of a rain slinger than 9 a hail guard. 10 MS. BARHYDT: What is a rain slinger? 11 MR. MARWITZ: It just throws water off the 12 face of the motor so it doesn't get down in the motor. 13 It's a small plastic device. It's not the same thing 14 as a hail guard. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about 16 dehumidification? I would think that you would have 17 some sort of humidity control on these. 18 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 19 Yes. We do have a logic in the controller that treats 20 a dehumidification mode. 21 MS. BARHYDT: And is that standard? 22 MR. MARWITZ: Yes, it is.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 67 1 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider 2 Electric. Similarly, we do have a logic. And I think 3 everybody in the industry kind of has their own little 4 schemes on how they do this, but they do have a 5 control method that changes the sensible heat ratio of 6 the product to be able to make it dehumidify. 7 Sometimes, though, to really enable and leverage this, 8 though, you need electric reheat option as well or hot 9 gas reheat option. So those are options. So the 10 dehumidification functionality is always there. 11 Whether or not people can really extensively use it 12 without an electric or hot gas reheat if they don't 13 have enough sensible load in the room kind of varies. 14 MS. BARHYDT: So how does this test 15 procedure differ? Does it account for humidification 16 and dehumidification? Because I know that is more of 17 an issue for the computer room air conditioners. 18 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. So the 19 method of test right now is primarily focused on the 20 sensible cooling capacity of the machine. In our 21 industry, almost all the heat we deal with is almost 22 exclusively sensible heat load compared to a comfort

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 68 1 cooling system, because the amount of makeup air we 2 have compared to the heat release from the IT because 3 of our watt densities per square foot is so 4 tremendous, you know, the latent capacity is almost a 5 secondary consideration for us. But, like Ted was 6 saying, we have given control behaviors, though, so 7 that we can kind of modify the way the machine runs to 8 be able to reduce a sensible heat ratio to provide 9 some dehumidification. 10 And then, optionally -- John here again -- 11 we do have humidification because a lot of the 12 industry is a little bit of concerned still about 13 electrostatic discharge. So a lot of the CRAC 14 vendors, including Schneider, offer different options 15 for humidification systems within our CRAC units to be 16 able to maintain the relative humidity above the 17 perceived critical threshold for electrostatic 18 discharge. 19 MS. BARHYDT: So for the humidification, 20 those are optional? That would not be standard? 21 MR. BEAN: They are options. That is 22 correct. You know, Ted, I don't know what your attach

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 69 1 rate is on humidification. I think, you know, we see 2 it's fairly common that people check that option. 3 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 4 It is an option on some of our products, and it's 5 standard on some of our products. And yes, we produce 6 a lot of units with humidifiers on them. I think that 7 may be going away in the future, but today that's the 8 way it is. 9 MR. BEAN: I am still campaigning to get 10 humidifiers taken out of CRAC. So I am on a personal 11 mission in life to do that. 12 MR. MARWITZ: Okay. 13 MS. BARHYDT: That was John? 14 MR. BEAN: That's John Bean. Yes. Yes. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else about 16 dehumidification or humidification? 17 (No response.) 18 So on the dehumidification, are the systems that are 19 described there sufficient to describe what you have 20 set out as the -- 21 MR. BEAN: Well, I don't think any of us is 22 doing any desiccant within our CRAC units or desiccant

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 70 1 wheels. We're using the DX or the chilled water coil 2 to be able to provide the latent cooling. Ted, would 3 you agree with that? I mean, I haven't seen a CRAC 4 unit with a solid or liquid desiccant in some time, if 5 ever. 6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I 7 agree with you, John. We don't use a desiccant wheel 8 or any kind of liquid desiccant system. They use the 9 coil. 10 MR. BEAN: Yes. So John here with 11 Schneider. It would be either the chilled water coil 12 or the DX -- 13 MR. MARWITZ: Or the DX coil. 14 MR. BEAN: -- coil providing it. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you. 16 So indoor fan motors, VFDs. 17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 18 We do offer these. They are an option. We don't see 19 a lot of them because, as John mentioned earlier, a 20 lot of manufacturers using electronically commutated 21 type motors that are, in essence, a VFD, but it's not 22 what I describe or what I believe the definition of

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 71 1 VFD here is: a variable frequency drive. 2 MR. BEAN: John here with Schneider. You 3 know, a similar situation with what Ted stated. 4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 5 MR. BEAN: But I am a little bit worried, 6 though, that somebody -- and I agree that a VFD isn't 7 necessarily intended to describe an EC, an 8 electronically commutated motor, but I'm a little bit 9 worried, though. If we're not careful, somebody may 10 say, "Well, that EC fan motor is, in essence, the same 11 functionality of a VFD. And, therefore, the product 12 can't be tested with it because you said that's an 13 option that you don't test with, but a lot of our 14 products require the EC capability. If you took out 15 the EC fan motor, we wouldn't have a product to test. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So just -- go ahead. 17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 18 I agree with John. Some people do once in a while 19 call the type of EC plug fan-type fans -- they believe 20 they are VFDs, yes. And somebody could misunderstand 21 that. I know in our group, we had a lot of discussion 22 about this particular item.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 72 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So just to be clear, 2 where it says "Departmental position" on here, we're 3 using the same slides that we used for unitary. And 4 so those are the positions that we took with respect 5 to unitary. And it's not set that that is the 6 position for the SPVUs or the CRACs today. That is 7 just reflecting what the position was with respect to 8 unitary. This call is for us to get enough 9 information so that we can actually figure out where 10 we stand on the different features. So the feedback 11 on the concern that somebody might call an ECM a VFD 12 is useful to us. Thank you. 13 What about other condenser fan motor 14 options, particularly to deal with ducting? 15 MR. BEAN: Well, John Bean here with 16 Schneider. Could you go back to the previous page -- 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. 18 MR. BEAN: -- just one second? I thought I 19 saw a header. Consider including the bottom bullet 20 there, "VFD option for compressors." Is that 21 something we need to speak about? 22 MS. BARHYDT: Is that an issue for CRACs?

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 73 1 MR. BEAN: It is potentially an issue. We 2 have some products that use a VFD on the compressor as 3 part of the standard configuration. They require the 4 VFD for the compressor. And they don't come any other 5 way other than that with the VFD on the compressor. 6 MS. BARHYDT: And does -- 7 MR. BEAN: So I am just wondering, are we at 8 risk of saying, hey, you know, we disqualify that from 9 testing, you know, a similar conversation to what we 10 just had for the fan motor, for the indoor fan motor? 11 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I'm sorry. Go 12 ahead. 13 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest with 14 Navigant. The idea here for unitary was that variable 15 frequency drives were offered as an option. And the 16 benefit of that option was not being captured by the 17 test procedure. So it would be excluded from testing 18 so that it wasn't penalized for something that has 19 energy savings potential in the field. If your 20 standard units have variable-speed capability and 21 products are tested that way, there is no reason for 22 DOE to exempt those. So your concern --

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 74 1 MR. BEAN: Okay. So -- 2 MR. RIVEST: So your concerns about ECM 3 motors I think are valid but wouldn't be a problem in 4 our situation here. We simply would not provide an 5 exemption for testing or VFDs for CRACs is what I'm 6 hearing so far. 7 MR. BEAN: Right. So what I am concerned 8 about is somebody would hardwire around the VFD or 9 take it out of circuit to be able to test the product. 10 And then it would not function as advertised. Okay? 11 So we would need that VFD there on the compressor for 12 the machine to perform as advertised. 13 MR. RIVEST: Right. So there is no risk of 14 DOE exempting VFDs from testing of CRACs if there are 15 no products being sold without VFDs. 16 MR. BEAN: Well, there are certainly 17 products being sold without them, but there are 18 products also that are being sold that require them. 19 So within the CRAC industry, we have quite a few 20 different ways of handling variable capacity on the 21 refrigeration circuit. And one of the methods is the 22 VFD on the compressor. And that is a standard feature

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 75 1 for us at Schneider on some of our product. 2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I 3 agree with you, John. We offer it as an option on 4 some products, but we have some products that it is 5 standard and would not operate without the VFD being 6 there. 7 MR. RIVEST: Those would be two different 8 basic models for DOE. 9 MR. BEAN: They would for us as well. 10 MR. RIVEST: Right. I think we understand 11 the situation. 12 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on this slide 13 before we move on? 14 (No response.) 15 So condenser fan motor options. 16 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 17 We do offer some condenser fan motor options for 18 ducting on some of our sealant products to overcome 19 pressure drop from the ducting. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And that is optional or you 21 have some models where that would be offered standard? 22 MR. MARWITZ: Some models it is a standard

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 76 1 feature. It is a package unit where the evap and 2 condenser are together. And, therefore, the condenser 3 is ducted, has to be ducted. It is optional in some, 4 but there are some that it is standard. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about steam 6 hydronic heat? Do computer room air conditioners do 7 any heating functions? 8 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider 9 Electric. Yes. You'll certainly see a fair number of 10 them that more typically have electric reheat in them 11 or hot gas reheat. And occasionally, you will see 12 steam or hydronic reheat. I would say that is in the 13 minority, though. You don't see too many CRACs with 14 steam reheat or hydronic, but it is an option and it 15 can happen. 16 MS. BARHYDT: And in those cases, it's 17 always an option? 18 MR. BEAN: We have no basic model -- John 19 Bean with Schneider again. We do not have any basic 20 models that include steam or hydronic within them. It 21 would be an engineered-to-order solution for us. 22 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 77 1 agree. We do offer steam and hydronic coils as an 2 option, but we do offer product without it. It is 3 totally an option. It is low volume. 4 MS. BARHYDT: How much of an impact does 5 that have on the performance? 6 MR. BEAN: It would have a reasonable impact 7 to the -- John Bean with Schneider. It would have a 8 reasonable impact to the fan system performance 9 because it is an extra coil packaged within the CRAC 10 unit that does have extra impedance to the air flow. 11 And sometimes they get put in awkward locations as 12 well because the packaging requirements that -- the 13 system effect is even more pronounced maybe than if 14 you just tested the static pressure of the coil by 15 itself because where it is in the air flow turbulence, 16 they can have some interesting system effect on the 17 system. 18 But it is such a low, low frequency device 19 for us. It is not justified to really refine the box 20 to anticipate this capability. It would be a terrible 21 trade-off. 22 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted from Data

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 78 1 Aire. I agree. It is very low-volume for us also. 2 And I agree with all your comments about affecting the 3 fan performance and air flow through the box. 4 MS. BARHYDT: So for the systems where you 5 do offer steam or hydronic heat, do you also offer 6 electric resistance heat as an option in those or are 7 there some systems where you would only offer steam or 8 hydronic heat? 9 MR. MARWITZ: Ted from Data Aire. There are 10 no systems where that would be only offered. They're 11 absolutely an option for us. But there are systems we 12 do offer electric reheat as a standard. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so forgive my lack 14 of knowledge in this area, but does the electric 15 resistance heat create the same air flow issues that 16 the steam or hydronic heat presents or does the 17 electric resistance somehow cause less of an impact? 18 MR. MARWITZ: Ted from Data Aire. It's less 19 impactful because it's electric elements, rather than 20 a whole coil. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. MARWITZ: It does affect the air flow

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 79 1 somewhat, but it's not as drastic. 2 MS. BARHYDT: And would it be possible to 3 test something that had one of the coils in it using 4 the test procedure? 5 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. When 6 you say, "one of the coils," are you referring to 7 electric reheat coil or are you referring to a 8 hydronic or steam coil? 9 MS. BARHYDT: The hydronic or steam coil. 10 MR. BEAN: It would certainly be possible to 11 test it with the coil in it, although its performance 12 would be different than what the published standard 13 basic model would be. If you compared it to the base 14 model performance, it would be different because of 15 the extra coil in there. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay. And what about 17 the hot gas reheat? It sounded like that was more 18 common? 19 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 20 It is an option and can be selected on our unit. Yes. 21 It is definitely more of a selected option than a 22 steam or hydronic, but it is still a low volume for

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 80 1 us. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Low volume. Less than two 3 percent of sales? Less than five? Less than ten? 4 MR. MARWITZ: Probably less than -- I'm 5 taking a guess here. Probably less than 20 or 30 6 percent of our sales. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 8 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. I 9 think we are -- well, I know our attach rate on hot 10 gas reheat is even lower than that. I think we're in 11 single-digit range of the attach rate for hot gas 12 reheat last I checked. 13 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I 14 was making a pure guess there. You may be right. It 15 may be much lower than I think it is. 16 MS. BARHYDT: That's okay. That at least 17 gives us a ballpark. Actually, if you all don't mind 18 going back to the steam and hydronic heat options? So 19 when you talk about the impact that has, are we 20 talking about on the final value that comes out of the 21 test procedure on the actual metric, are we talking 22 about an impact of zero to two percent or two to five

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 81 1 percent or over five percent impact on the metric? I 2 mean, I know that the impact on the air flow might be 3 dramatic in terms of percentage, but how does that 4 actually end up coming out under the test procedure? 5 MR. BEAN: So John with Schneider. In the 6 overall coefficient of performance with the DX running 7 -- I'm going to guess -- and it is a guess -- around 8 three-ish percent maybe. It might change the sensible 9 coefficient of performance by three percent maybe. 10 Certainly it is going to have a bigger hit on the fan 11 power. It would probably be a five, six percent hit 12 on the fan power because of the extra maybe even 13 seven. 14 The thing that scares me, though, is if it 15 is three-ish kind of percent and we have a plus or 16 minus five percent target, you throw this on top of 17 other manufacturing tolerance issues. And if somebody 18 tested a product with this option in it and expected 19 it with all of the other tolerance stacks, it would 20 still be a safe bet to reflect the basic model group 21 performance specifications. I would be a little bit 22 frightened of that really working out in our favor.

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 82 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. BEAN: So basically what I'm asking, 3 hey, DOE or whomever wants to validate our numbers, 4 please say that you're not going to test it with the 5 hydronic coil in it or a steam reheat. And if you 6 happen to get one that way, please have it removed 7 before you proceed with the test. Otherwise you're 8 going to call us up, saying, "Hey, your numbers aren't 9 true." And we're going to ask you questions. And 10 you're going to say, "Oh, yeah. I had that in there." 11 And we'll say, "Hey, please take it out." 12 So that is my opinion, but just to be real frank, 13 right, to put out my fear here. 14 MS. BARHYDT: No. I understand the concern. 15 And then on the hot gas reheat, how much of an impact 16 does that have? 17 MR. BEAN: I would estimate it would almost 18 be identical because typically the hot gas reheat coil 19 in terms of the fins per inch and the base area ratio 20 to the evaporator coil are kind of comparable in many 21 cases. So I would say that just the fact that that 22 coil there has the potential to be similarly

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 83 1 disruptive as a steam or hydronic heating coil. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So this feature has the 3 coil in the air flow the same way that the steam or 4 hydronic heat does? 5 MR. BEAN: In our products, it does, yes. 6 And, Ted, I don't know how you guys manage that, 7 whether it's situated very similar to your steam or 8 hydronic coil. 9 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted from Data 10 Aire. It is the same way. It is another coil laying 11 over top of the cooling coil. And yes, it has an 12 impact. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else with any 14 comments or thoughts on any of the items on this 15 slide? If we have any other manufacturers of computer 16 room air conditioners, by all means, identify 17 yourself. And we'll get you unmated so you can 18 participate in the call. 19 MR. AMRANE: Laura, this is Karim. I guess 20 I have a general comment. At least for the unitary 21 large product, you know, when we had those 22 discussions, the Department took a position on what it

### Capital Reporting Company

Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 84 1 would do or not do. You are not taking a position. 2 When are you planning to do that, I mean, in the next 3 meeting or -- it's hard for us to see. And we don't 4 see any looks taken in any way based on the discussion 5 we are having. So I am afraid we're losing all the -- 6 I hope that you were taking notes because otherwise we 7 would be having the same discussion next month if we 8 have -- 9 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, no. 10 MR. AMRANE: -- that we discussed -- 11 MS. BARHYDT: Karim, we have the 12 stenographer here. So she has got it all. 13 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Good. Good. 14 MS. BARHYDT: No. The whole thing is being 15 recorded. So that's why we keep asking who is 16 speaking, so that we make sure we have down who is 17 saying what. But yes, our plan is to have our 18 position on this at the next meeting. The purpose of 19 this is just to gather the information. 20 MR. AMRANE: Okay. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Next. Okay. What 22 about barometric relief? Is this something that you

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 85 1 have in a computer room air conditioner? My sort of 2 instinct is that you wouldn't want a lot of outside 3 air coming in because you are trying to control the 4 environment for the room, but maybe my instinct is 5 completely off. 6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 7 We don't offer anything like this. No. It is not in 8 our product lines. 9 MS. BARHYDT: What about the powered 10 exhaust, powered return air, any of those three? 11 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted again. None of 12 those. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 14 MR. BEAN: So John Bean with Schneider. 15 Ted, quick question, though. And I apologize for not 16 being more familiar with the way everybody is doing 17 it, but some of the vendors do use a mixing box for 18 outside air. You know, we talked early in this: the 19 outdoor air economizer box on top of the CRAC. Do any 20 of those end up with a powered exhaust on them or is 21 it more typical just to rely on the pressure within 22 the data center to go through the louver to get it

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 86 1 back outside? 2 MR. MARWITZ: Dave, this is Ted again. They 3 do require a powered exhaust fan. We don't supply it. 4 We usually leave that for the engineer to design that 5 because we have no idea what the room size is, how 6 much air they may need to relieve. So it's not part 7 of our product, but it is recommended to be used with 8 the air- side economizer. 9 MR. BEAN: Okay. 10 MR. MARWITZ: Okay? 11 MS. BARHYDT: So, then, in that case where 12 you are selling it with the economizer, you're 13 specifying that you recommend that it have some sort 14 of powered exhaust or some kind of other features 15 added. But you don't specify that and you leave it to 16 the engineer on the job? 17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 18 That is correct. 19 MS. BARHYDT: What about fresh air dampers? 20 MR. BEAN: We occasionally see products that 21 do have a small fresh air inlet on the side of the 22 CRAC box but very, very occasionally.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 87 1 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 2 We also see some of that but, again, it's a very, very 3 low, low requirement. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And when you say you see that, 5 do you mean that you occasionally produce that or you 6 have seen other manufacturers do that? 7 MR. BEAN: John with Schneider. We 8 occasionally produce that as an engineered-to-order 9 capability where we'll put a fresh air duct collar on 10 the side of the CRAC unit for them to bring the fresh 11 air into the CRAC before they push it into the floor 12 plenum. 13 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 14 We also do produce it at times. We actually have one 15 product that we sell to somebody else. We don't 16 market it as a cross-the-line product for sale to 17 anybody, but they do use it. So I only know this. It 18 would fall into this category. 19 MS. BARHYDT: And what about filtration? Is 20 that specified in the CRAC test procedure? 21 MR. BEAN: It is. John with Schneider. It 22 is.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 88 1 MS. BARHYDT: It is? Okay. 2 MR. BEAN: It is specified within the method 3 of test. It's a MERV 8 filter; right, Ted? 4 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted. That is 5 our standard: MERV 8. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 7 MR. BEAN: I think we have an alternate, 8 though. Ted, when we did the AHRI, I think we offered 9 a MERV 4 for the row-based product. 10 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted. You are 11 right. Yes. We did have some discussion about that. 12 Yes. Yes. On the end row, MERV 4. 13 MS. BARHYDT: So, again, if you'll bear with 14 me? Can you explain what a row product is? 15 MR. BEAN: Yes. John Bean with Schneider. 16 So, for the longest time, the CRAC industry had this 17 perimeter down flow. The mark was dominated by 18 perimeter down flow CRACs that were basically a 19 vertical air handler that pushed the cooled air into a 20 raised floor plenum. And they used perforated tiles 21 in front of the IT racks to get the air up out of the 22 plenum in front of the IT equipment to be cooled.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 89 1 So about seven or so years ago, there was a 2 bit of a change to some alternate methods of doing 3 this. And it's maybe 15-20 percent of the total 4 market. They have taken the CRACs from the perimeter. 5 And they no longer push the air under the floor 6 plenum, but they put the CRAC right immediately 7 adjacent or in row with the IT racks. So you will 8 have an IT rack on one side, another IT rack on the 9 other side of the row- based CRACs, and they're just 10 pre-discharge, they're pushing their air -- rather 11 than get into the floor plenum, they're just pushing 12 the air out into the cold aisle in front of the IT 13 racks. 14 And typically these guys have different 15 types of fans in them. Typically, the row-type 16 products have little axial fans in them, don't handle 17 the static quite as well. They have gone more towards 18 typically a MERV 4 filter to be a little bit more 19 within the static pressure capability of the fans used 20 for the real products. 21 MS. BARHYDT: And does the test procedure 22 make any distinction between the two?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 90 1 MR. BEAN: Yes, it does. 2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 3 MR. BEAN: We have a difference between pre4 discharge, which is the classification for row 5 cooling. 6 Row cooling is free discharge. And then we 7 have up flow and down flow products as well. So the 8 test procedure basically recognizes three flavors, if 9 you would, for CRACs: is the up flow ducted, down 10 flow, and then free discharge? 11 MS. BARHYDT: And when you sell the systems, 12 you would inspect them and design them differently for 13 the different purposes or different -- 14 MR. BEAN: Yes. 15 MS. BARHYDT: -- installation designs? 16 MR. BEAN: Absolutely. A row-based air 17 conditioner is going to be a totally different base 18 model than a down flow CRAC unit. 19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Does anyone have 20 anything else they want to add on any of the features 21 on this slide now? 22 (No response.)

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 91 1 Okay. Hot gas bypass. Do you use this in your CRACs? 2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 3 We do have it as an option. And we do see it on some 4 of our units. 5 MR. BEAN: Schneider. Similar. 6 MS. BARHYDT: And how much of an impact does 7 this have on the performance? 8 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I don't know 9 what the actual number is, but it's pretty significant 10 when it is operating. 11 MS. BARHYDT: And so would this operate 12 under the conditions of the test procedure? 13 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. We had 14 a little conference here. Sorry for the delay. But 15 we have some products that were really designed for 16 higher return air temperatures. And if they were 17 tested at the 75-degree temperature right now that's 18 in the 2007 version of the method of test from ASHRAE, 19 our products may very well bring on the hot gas 20 bypass. And it would have a profound impact on the 21 performance. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Can you quantify profound in

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 92 1 terms of the metric? 2 MR. BEAN: Yes. I'm thinking 30 to 50 3 percent. It's really going to mess it up big time. 4 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted. It would 5 be huge. 6 MR. BEAN: Yes. 7 MS. BARHYDT: And you said that this is an 8 option. It's not something that you ever offer 9 standard? 10 MR. BEAN: Some products it's standard for 11 us. So, I mean, this brings up an interesting point. 12 I know this isn't on the slide, but this is a concern 13 that I have and I think some of my counterparts in 14 industry may have. 15 Right now the method of test that DOE is 16 recognizing -- and that is the 2007 version of 127, 17 ASHRAE 127, 2007. Right now that method of test only 18 has a single return air temperature for the testing of 19 75 degrees Fahrenheit. 20 We have products in the industry right now 21 that are really being designed to maybe give a supply 22 air temperature closer to that than the return air

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 93 1 temperature. So we have products right now, some of 2 our row-based products, the type that we're talking 3 about, that if they were tested at 75 degrees, rather 4 than the 85-95 degrees, return air they're designed 5 for, they may turn on their hot gas bypass. And they 6 would perform terribly because they are being operated 7 at a point they were never really intended to operate 8 at. 9 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I agree with 10 what John is saying. It would only be for a brief 11 period of time that it would ever operate that way; 12 right? 13 MR. BEAN: Yes. 14 MR. MARWITZ: Not as a continual operating 15 mode? 16 MR. BEAN: Right. 17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I think for the 18 benefit of DOE, you should know that changes that 19 would make the test procedure, the 2012 version, 20 pressure 127, is different than the 2007 and DOE has 21 adopted. Unfortunately, that is standard ASHRAE 90.1. 22 You've probably come up in the next few, maybe year or

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 94 1 so, with a new addition to the product that will 2 change a little bit what we have currently that will 3 add additional return air temperatures. 4 And I think to address this issue right now, 5 you know, it's in part of the design for different 6 return temperatures, maybe at least as a temporary 7 measure, maybe those would have to fall under a waiver 8 provision from the test procedure if they cannot be 9 tested, probably tested with the current test 10 procedure. So it might be something that DOE will 11 have to consider until the time where, you know, the 12 new test procedure is adopted to where there might be 13 additional efficiency levels for different return air 14 conditions. 15 MS. BARHYDT: Again, we'll have to talk 16 about some of the issues you've raised. I can't 17 really speak to where we would go right now, but is 18 there anything else that we should know or consider 19 about the hot gas bypass? Because it sounds like this 20 could potentially be a real issue, particularly with 21 respect to the current test procedure. 22 MR. BEAN: You know, I think I like Karim's

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 95 1 proposal -- John Bean with Schneider -- if perhaps a 2 waiver could be granted until the methods of test 3 catch up to these newer products designed for higher 4 return air temperatures. I think that's something 5 that I would suggest and support being considered by 6 the DOE to look at that. 7 It is unfortunate because we have increased 8 our efficiency by designing products specifically for 9 higher temperature return air, but then if we are 10 forced to test that product at the standard 75, the 11 product doesn't perform at all well. So it's kind of 12 a funny thing; right? We develop these new products 13 that perform very well at the higher temperatures. 14 And it helped improve efficiency there. And we're 15 scratching our heads like, "My goodness. If we're 16 forced to test these at 75 while if properly applied, 17 they are a better way to cool but if tested at 75, 18 they're not going to pass the test, we're scratching 19 our heads to try to figure out how to get through this 20 problem. 21 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE does have provisions 22 for test procedure waivers where manufacturers believe

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 96 1 that the test procedure yields results that don't 2 accurately reflect the performance of the product. 3 And so that might be something for you to look at in 4 the short term. 5 MR. BEAN: Okay. 6 MS. BARHYDT: But, again, we will talk more 7 about this at the meeting next Wednesday. 8 MR. BEAN: Okay. I appreciate you at least 9 entertaining that side conversation. Thank you. 10 MS. BARHYDT: What about sound traps? 11 You're putting this into a room with a lot of really 12 noisy computers. Are sound traps even an issue? 13 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 14 We don't offer anything like that. 15 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. Other 16 than maybe a custom plenum that I have seen a few 17 instances ripe for up flow units, where you put a 18 custom plenum on it, we don't have anything in our 19 catalogue that would have a sound trap in it. 20 MS. BARHYDT: What do you mean by the custom 21 plenum? 22 MR. BEAN: Well, I have seen products and

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 97 1 not in recent years, but I can't imagine that they 2 have totally gone away. You know, up flow units where 3 we are discharging the air, you know, up through the 4 unit, into a plenum with grills, I have seen where 5 they will put some sound attenuators between the 6 grills and the fan discharge to be able to get the 7 sound powered down a little bit around the product. 8 But this is such a freak thing. You know, I 9 can think we can say that basically we don't do it. 10 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 11 I've been in this industry for five years now. And I 12 know in our history, we have done what you are talking 13 about, John. But I haven't seen any recently and 14 since I have been here. 15 MR. BEAN: Yes. I am just thinking back 16 over history; right? And I have been kicking around 17 this for a long time. But yes. I haven't seen any in 18 recent time. I think we could -- and within the box 19 itself, I don't think the DOE or anybody could stumble 20 across a unit out there to test with a sound trap 21 built into it. So I don't think there's a lot of 22 risk.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 98 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. MARWITZ: But that would be a separate 3 piece that would not be integral to the test unit; 4 right? 5 MR. BEAN: Right. 6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So this is something 7 that would be installed in the field. It wouldn't be 8 part of the unit. 9 MR. BEAN: Correct. 10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about fire smoke 11 isolation dampers? 12 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. We don't see 13 them as an integral part of our units. They're 14 usually -- we have seen them as part of a floor stand 15 at various facilities. 16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But it's not something 17 that you are shipping with your unit or offering in 18 option? 19 MR. MARWITZ: That's true. 20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else for any 21 of the items on this slide? 22 (No response.)

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 99 1 Okay. I am assuming wall sleeves are not relevant to 2 computer room air conditioners. 3 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. They don't 4 affect us, no. 5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 6 MR. BEAN: Nothing in the Schneider 7 portfolio either. John Bean here. 8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about UV lights? 9 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. Anything 10 relative to our standard product, it's not an option. 11 It could come up as an engineered product, but it's 12 very, very rare. 13 MR. BEAN: Schneider would echo that. Same. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And what about high15 static indoor blowers, oversized motors? 16 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. We do get 17 applications requesting higher static pressures, which 18 we would then accommodate by either upsizing the motor 19 or in some cases changing the blower and motor both. 20 But it would be an engineered product, what we call a 21 special. 22 MR. BEAN: John with Schneider. Similarly,

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 100 1 it would be what we would call an engineered-to-order. 2 It wouldn't be an option as such for a standard 3 product. You would have to call up our group, and we 4 would engineer it specifically for that project. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So it would be taking an 6 existing model and adjusting it or you would just be 7 designing a completely new model based on the demand? 8 MR. BEAN: Yes. An example for Schneider, 9 we might have a static application where we would take 10 out a 560-millimeter fan and replace it with a 630- 11 millimeter fan. That fan would never really ever be 12 seen in our standard product offering. And it would 13 be run at an alternate speed range as well to handle 14 external static. It would really be an unusual 15 circumstance for us, but it has happened. And I 16 perceive that it could happen. It will happen in the 17 future. 18 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 19 We're in the same situation as John just discussed. 20 MS. BARHYDT: And how common is this? 21 MR. BEAN: It would be in the single digit 22 percentage for sure, --

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 101 1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 2 MR. BEAN: -- low single digits. 3 MR. MARWITZ: Same for Data Aire. 4 MS. BARHYDT: And whatever your standard 5 motor is, does that operate at the parameters that are 6 specified in the test procedure? 7 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 8 Yes, they will. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 10 MR. BEAN: Schneider would concur, yes. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Are there any other unique 12 issues to computer room air conditioners that we 13 should be thinking about? 14 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. We need to talk 15 about the nonstandard supply air and return air. And 16 maybe, John, you can talk about it more. 17 MR. BEAN: Right. So John Bean Schneider 18 here. You know, we mentioned that we have three basic 19 classes. We have the down flow, the free discharge, 20 and the up flow. We occasionally get orders for 21 nonstandard air flow configurations. So by then, I 22 mean, our up flow units -- in most of the industry, up

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 102 1 flow unit has a front return air on it. And the box 2 was designed to take the air in the front, do a 90- 3 degree vertical turn upright, go through the machine, 4 and discharge out the top of the machine. We do get 5 customers now and then that they want a rear return 6 option, rather than a front return option. The 7 implication there is, though, that the air flow 8 through the machine is coming in a direction other 9 than what its guts were designed for specifically 10 inside. And it's mainly an external sheet metal 11 change to it. And the airflow performance will not be 12 identical. And so what we're saying is if somebody 13 ordered a rear return option and tested it, it 14 probably would not test out identical to the base 15 model. 16 MS. BARHYDT: How close would it be? 17 MR. BEAN: I think you would almost have to 18 take that case by case. Some of the machines that 19 maybe have a horizontal filter rack and a B coil or an 20 A coil would probably be almost the same performance. 21 Now, other machines have a slab coil and the filter 22 mounted on an angle. And then the air coming from the

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 103 1 other direction, you know, entering it in a different 2 way than it was optimized for, could have a fairly 3 significant hit on it from an air-side performance. 4 Definitely it would have enough performance that we 5 could put at risk a finding that the unit didn't 6 comply. And, really, the only reason it didn't comply 7 was because it had this rear return option. 8 MS. BARHYDT: And is there a reason why you 9 wouldn't just -- where they want that design, where 10 you wouldn't design something that, in my words, makes 11 more sense for a rear return? 12 MR. BEAN: Yes. So the attach rate, this 13 option is so overrun for us to go and go and support 14 all the different piping changes and all the extra 15 sheet metal for this very, very low attach rate of 16 this rear return option would not be such a -- you 17 know, we would spend more developing and designing 18 this. So we would almost have to tell the industry, 19 "No. You just can't have this anymore because we 20 really optimized every box to work perfectly or as 21 ideal as we could for rear return." The cost to do it 22 would just be prohibitive to them.

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 104 1 MS. BARHYDT: And can you go back and 2 explain again why some people want the rear return, 3 instead of the front return? 4 MR. BEAN: So, Ted, I don't know about what 5 you're seeing, but sometimes what we'll see is they'll 6 put the CRAC unit in a galley outside the computer 7 room where basically the back of the CRAC is up 8 against a wall between the computer room air 9 conditioner in the data center itself. And then 10 they'll duct the return air into the bottom of the 11 unit and then do a U-turn and then put it back out 12 into the data center. That is one of the applications 13 where I have seen rear return. 14 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. That is exactly 15 what we see most of them being, yes. We have seen 16 some other rear returns. I am not sure exactly the 17 application, but what you described is the most 18 predominant. 19 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest from 20 Navigant. I mean, is this a different product or is 21 it simply the openings and the casing that are a 22 different position?

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 105 1 MR. BEAN: For us, it's just the openings. 2 And the sheet metal wrapper is modified to be able to 3 put the opening for the return air in the back, rather 4 than the front. It's different sheet metal that goes 5 on it. 6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 7 It's the same for us. It does change the air flow. 8 And sometimes the rear opening is a compromise of area 9 compared to what you have from a front and side 10 opening. 11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hello. This is Ashley from 12 DOE as well. Is the act, then, just to specify the 13 position for testing? 14 MR. BEAN: Could you repeat that? 15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I Mean, is there act for the 16 DOE to consider specifying a certain I guess air flow 17 configuration for testing? 18 MR. BEAN: Well, my request -- John with 19 Schneider. I think my request would be that if DOE 20 wanted to test a product, they would not select a 21 product with rear return option for testing because 22 it's such an uncommon feature and the fact that it

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 106 1 does provide, as Ted was indicating, maybe a different 2 air- entering geometry, you know, the area available 3 may be smaller, we would request that you don't test 4 that as being representative of the base model. 5 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I 6 agree with what John just said. 7 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have other questions, 8 Ashley? 9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. We're good. You can 10 keep going. 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else on the 12 nonstandard supply of return air? 13 (No response.) 14 MS. BARHYDT: I think we understand the 15 issue. 16 MR. BEAN: Okay. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Let's see. We talked about 18 the correction capacitors, but the slide has been 19 added to add "and electronics." And I'm not sure what 20 that was intended to cover because we didn't discuss 21 anything else. 22 MR. MARWITZ: John, this is Ted from Data

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 107 1 Aire. I think that was added by another manufacturer, 2 was it not? And I'm not sure exactly what they were 3 thinking when they added it. 4 MR. BEAN: I'm thinking it was. You are 5 absolutely correct. And I'm thinking maybe they were 6 thinking active power factor correction, rather than 7 just simple capacitors; right? 8 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. That could fall into 9 that category, yes. 10 MR. BEAN: That is the only thing I can -- I 11 didn't follow up and ask him why he threw "and 12 electronics" in there, but that was my assumption. I 13 just let it be. 14 MS. BARHYDT: Can you go back to the 15 correction capacitor slide? 16 MS. TUCKER: Yes. 17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I was just refreshing my 18 own memory as to what that was. Okay. I see. Okay. 19 And so based on your understanding of what 20 that would be, the electronics would presumably also 21 require power in addition to whatever losses there 22 were for the correction?

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 108 1 MR. BEAN: Yes. I am inferring that is what 2 this manufacturer was implying, yes. 3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 4 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry. Mike Rivest. Did 5 you say earlier that power factor correction is not 6 something that was typically supplied with your units? 7 MR. BEAN: We did say that it's a very 8 infrequent offering from the Schneider perspective. 9 John Bean with Schneider. We don't see very often a 10 request for power factor correction capacitors. 11 MR. RIVEST: When they used the word 12 "capacitors," I don't think they were really just 13 limiting it to capacitors. I think all along, it's 14 been power factor correction, I think, more generally. 15 MR. BEAN: And John here with Schneider. 16 And I think that's why electronics was added by this 17 other vendor, because maybe an act of high power 18 factor correction, rather than just capacitor banks, I 19 think that is where that electronics came from. 20 MR. RIVEST: Right. 21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. 22 MR. BEAN: To your point.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 109 1 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. 2 It is very, very low. We see it only as an engineered 3 product once in a while. But I agree with John that 4 it is an act of power factor capacitor. 5 MS. BARHYDT: So are there any other issues 6 that you wanted to add anything, feel like we didn't 7 cover sufficiently? I'm looking at the list. And I 8 think we covered everything here but just to make 9 sure. 10 MR. BEAN: I think we covered everything 11 here pretty well. 12 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I agree. 13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, thank you both for your 14 time. And so we will be revisiting this after DOE has 15 had an opportunity to go back and look through all of 16 the comments that you have provided today. And we'll 17 be meeting again next Wednesday as the full working 18 group. 19 MR. AMRANE: Laura, this is Karim. Just a 20 request if possible. I know that DOE is going to 21 review this and DOE is going to go over it like it did 22 for the other product, you know, suggest a

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Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 110 1 recommendation. Would it be possible to receive that 2 recommendation ahead of the meeting if I can share it 3 with the manufacturers because many of them are not 4 going to be probably on the phone next week? That 5 will be helpful, at least to get some feedback. 6 MS. BARHYDT: We will try to. Honestly, my 7 hesitation is that the idea of the meeting Wednesday 8 is that we present our view and our rationale. And 9 our hope is that it is then a dialogue. So if it's 10 possible for people to be on the phone for that 11 meeting, that really would be ideal because, 12 obviously, it is a negotiation. And so my hesitation 13 in providing something in advance makes it look like, 14 "And this is the way it is going to be, end of story." 15 And that is not the idea behind the whole rulemaking. 16 MR. AMRANE: And I understand. This is 17 Karim. I know, but maybe the hope is that there will 18 be manufacturers on the call. And probably there will 19 be some, but it's just to get further input from those 20 who -- like today we have only two manufacturers on 21 the phone. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 111 1 MR. AMRANE: And the others, Emerson is not 2 on the phone. And Emerson is a big player here. And 3 I hope they will be on the phone next week, but it's 4 just to get some input prior to the meeting so at 5 least if they are not on the phone, we can provide 6 that input. That's all. 7 MS. BARHYDT: I will do my best, Karim. 8 MR. AMRANE: Thank you. 9 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else? 10 (No response.) 11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, thanks, 12 everybody, to joining us today. I know it was fairly 13 short notice, but this has been very helpful to the 14 Department to get this additional information. And we 15 look forward to talking to everybody at the next 16 working group meeting on Wednesday. 17 MR. BEAN: Well, thank you. We appreciate 18 you taking the time to listen to us. 19 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. Thank you. This has 20 been good. 21 MR. AMRANE: Thank you. 22 MS. BARHYDT: Good. Thanks, everyone. Bye

### Capital Reporting Company

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(866) 448 - DEPO www.CapitalReportingCompany.com © 2013 112 1 bye. 2 (Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the 3 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking 4 Federal Advisory Committee was 5 concluded.) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22Capital Reporting Company Appliance Standards and Rulemaking Federal Advisory Committee Meeting 07-10-2013

1 CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER 2 3 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 5 certify that the proceeding was recorded by me; that 6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 11 interest in this proceeding. 12 13 14 15

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1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPTION 2 3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 4 Reporter who reported the following proceeding and 5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 8 complete transcription of said proceeding

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