### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 1**  **U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY + + + + +**  **ENERGY CONSERVATION STANDARD NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE FOR**  **METAL HALIDE LAMP FIXTURES + + + + +**  **PUBLIC MEETING + + + + +**  **FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 27, 2013** 

**+ + + + + The public meeting was held in Room**  **8E-089, 1000 Independence Avenue, S.W., Washington, D.C., at 9:00 a.m., Doug Brookman,**  **Meeting Facilitator, presiding.**

**PRESENT: DOUG BROOKMAN, Meeting Facilitator, Public**  **Solutions, Inc. ARI ALTMAN, Department of Energy**  **LUCY DeBUTTS, Department of Energy**

**ALSO PRESENT: JENNIFER AMANN, American Council for an**  **Energy-Efficient Economy TIMOTHY BALLO, Earthjustice**  **ALEX BOESENBERG, National Electrical Manufacturers Association**  **SUSAN CALLAHAN, OSRAM SYLVANIA MATTHEW CHESTER, Navigant Consulting** 

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 2**  **ALSO PRESENT (Continued): HAYDEN COOK, Navigant Consulting**  **KEITH COOK, Philips Lighting MARK DUFFY, GE Lighting**  **TOM ECKMAN, Northwest Power and Conservation Council**  **CHERYL ENGLISH, Acuity Brands Lighting JOHN GREEN, Eaton Cooper Lighting**  **JOSEPH HANCOCK, Florida Power and Light*** **TOM HARDING, Venture Lighting ALEX HOFMANN, American Public Power**  **Association CHRIS HOLSTEIN, Universal Lighting**  **Technologies JOSEPH HOWLEY, GE Lighting**  **SCOTTY HUTTO, Georgia Power TANZINA ISLAM, American Public Power**  **Association JOANNA MAUER, Appliance Standards Awareness**  **Project ALI MCDONALD, Navigant Consulting**  **SCOTT MORRIS, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory**  **MICHAEL MYER, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory**  **MICHAEL O'BOYLE, Philips Lighting CHACKO OOMMEN, Philips Lighting**  **CRAIG PAWLAK, Musco Lighting REBECCA RAINER, Eaton Cooper Lighting**  **STEVE ROSENSTOCK, Edison Electric Institute LOUIS STARR, Northwest Energy Efficiency**  **Alliance MICHAEL STEVENS, Georgia Power Company**  **PIERSON STOECKLEIN, Steptoe & Johnson, LLP MATTHEW WALKER, Navigant Consulting**  **DOUG YATES, Musco Lighting DANIEL YOUNG, California Investor-Owned**  **Utilities** ***Participating via teleconference.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 3**  **TABLE OF CONTENTS AGENDA ITEM PAGE**  **Welcome; Introductions; Opening**

**............. 4**  **Statements Lucy DeButts, DOE Lighting Project**  **Manager Overview, Scope, Market and**  **.................46 Technology Assessment, Screening**  **Analysis Matt Chester, Navigant Consulting, ....... 103**  **Inc. Engineering Analysis**  **Matthew Walker, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 125 Energy Use, Markup Analysis,**  **Life-Cycle Cost and Payback Period Analysis**  **Michael Myer and Scott Morris, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory**  **............. 222 Shipments, National Impact Analysis**  **Michael Myer and Scott Morris, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory**  **............ 228 Manufacturer Impact Analysis**  **Hayden Cook, Navigant Consulting, Inc. ... 269 Proposed Standard**  **Matthew Walker, Navigant Consulting, Inc. 319 Closing Remarks**  **Lucy DeButts, DOE Lighting Project Manager**  **............................ 324**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 4**  **1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S**  

### 2 **9:00 a.m.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's get started,** 

### 4 **everyone. Good morning. This is the U.S.** 

### 5 **Department of Energy's public meeting on energy** 

### 6 **conservation standard notice of proposed rule** 

### 7 **for metal halide lamp fixtures here at the** 

### 8 **Department of Energy in Washington, D.C. Today** 

### 9 **is Friday, September 27th, 2013. My name is** 

### 10 **Doug Brookman from Public Solutions in** 

### 11 **Baltimore.** 

### 12 **So glad to see you here this morning.** 

### 13 **Welcome. And we're going to start this morning** 

### 14 **with welcoming remarks from Lucy DeButts.** 

### 15 **MS. DeBUTTS: Good morning,** 

### 16 **everyone. I am happy to see all of you here. I** 

### 17 **am Lucy DeButts, currently the lighting team** 

### 18 **lead for DOE. And, just like Doug said, we are** 

### 19 **going to discuss the metal halide lamp fixtures** 

### 20 **standards and the test procedure issues today.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 22 **We always start with introductions.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 5**  **1 I will give you a chance to get used to turning**  

### 2 **these microphones on and off. Little green** 

### 3 **button illuminates. I'll start to my left.** 

### 4 **Your name and organizational affiliation?** 

### 5 **MS. CALLAHAN: Sue Callahan, Osram** 

### 6 **Sylvania.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen, Philips** 

### 9 **Electronics.** 

### 10 **MR. STEVENS: Mike Stevens with** 

### 11 **Georgia Power.** 

### 12 **MS. RAINER: Becky Rainer with** 

### 13 **Eaton Cooper Lighting.** 

### 14 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 15 **NEMA.** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 17 **Edison Electric Institute.** 

### 18 **MR. HOFMANN: Alex Hofmann,** 

### 19 **American Public Power Association.** 

### 20 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein,** 

### 21 **Universal Lighting.** 

### 22 **MR. HOWLEY: Joe Howley, GE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 6**  **1 Lighting.**  

### 2 **MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook,** 

### 3 **Philips Lighting.** 

### 4 **MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young,** 

### 5 **California Investor-Owned Utilities.** 

### 6 **MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco** 

### 7 **Sports Lighting.** 

### 8 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr, Northwest** 

### 9 **Energy Efficiency Alliance.** 

### 10 **MR. ALTMAN: Ari Altman with the DOE** 

### 11 **General Counsel's office.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please stand.** 

### 13 **Lucy, introduce yourself again.** 

### 14 **MS. DeBUTTS: Lucy DeButts, DOE.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 16 **Please stand up.** 

### 17 **MS. McDONALD: Ali McDonald,** 

### 18 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 19 **MR. CHESTER: Matt Chester,** 

### 20 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 21 **MR. WALKER: Matthew Walker, also** 

### 22 **with Navigant.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 7**  **1 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Hayden Cook,**  

### 2 **Navigant Consulting.** 

### 3 **MR. MYER: Mike Myer, Pacific** 

### 4 **Northwest National Laboratory.** 

### 5 **MR. MORRIS: Scott Morris, PNNL,** 

### 6 **Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: And let's do the back** 

### 8 **of the room as well, please. You can just speak** 

### 9 **up.** 

### 10 **MR. DUFFY: All right. I'm Mark** 

### 11 **Duffy from GE Lighting.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 13 **MR. GREEN: John Green, Eaton** 

### 14 **Cooper Lighting.** 

### 15 **MR. O'BOYLE: Michael O'Boyle,** 

### 16 **Philips Lighting.** 

### 17 **MR. McCABE: Michael McCabe,** 

### 18 **subcontractor to PNNL.** 

### 19 **MR. PAWLAK: Craig Pawlak, Musco** 

### 20 **Lighting.** 

### 21 **MS. ISLAM: Tanzina Islam, American** 

### 22 **Public Power Association.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 8**  **1 MR. HUTTO: Scott Hutto, Georgia**  

### 2 **Power and Lighting Services.** 

### 3 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer, Appliance** 

### 4 **Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 5 **MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English,** 

### 6 **Acuity Brands Lighting.** 

### 7 **MR. STOECKLEIN: Pierson** 

### 8 **Stoecklein, Steptoe & Johnson, on behalf of** 

### 9 **Acuity Brands.** 

### 10 **MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest** 

### 11 **Power and Conservation Council.** 

### 12 **MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo with** 

### 13 **Earthjustice.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Well, thanks** 

### 15 **again to all of you. And all of you received a** 

### 16 **packet of information as you checked in this** 

### 17 **morning. I'm going to do a very brief agenda** 

### 18 **review. And then shortly thereafter, we're** 

### 19 **going to start with the content. Immediately** 

### 20 **following this agenda review, there is an** 

### 21 **opportunity for anyone that wishes to do so to** 

### 22 **make an opening statement, brief opening**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 9**  **1 remarks. I understand NEMA has a presentation**  

### 2 **that it has prepared.** 

### 3 **MR. BOESENBERG: Yes.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Have you handed it** 

### 5 **off yet to someone, Alex?** 

### 6 **MR. BOESENBERG: Electronically,** 

### 7 **yes, ready to go.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have it?** 

### 9 **MS. DeBUTTS: Yes, we do. We do.** 

### 10 **It's loaded.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: We have it? Okay.** 

### 12 **Great. So not only NEMA but anyone else that** 

### 13 **wishes to make an opening statement, summary** 

### 14 **remarks, about issues that matter to you, we'll** 

### 15 **do that immediately following this agenda** 

### 16 **review; following that, overview, scope, market** 

### 17 **and technology assessment, screening analysis** 

### 18 **and then following that, engineering analysis.** 

### 19 **We'll take a break midmorning, around about** 

### 20 **11:00 o'clock or so; following that, energy use,** 

### 21 **markup analysis, life-cycle cost, and payback** 

### 22 **period analysis; then shipments, national**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 10**  **1 impacts analysis. We'll take lunch around**  

### 2 **about 12:00-12:15 or so. When we return from** 

### 3 **lunch, manufacturer impact analysis; LCC** 

### 4 **subgroup analysis, employment impact analysis,** 

### 5 **emissions analysis and monetization of** 

### 6 **emissions, regulatory impact analysis;** 

### 7 **following that, proposed standard; and then,** 

### 8 **finally, at the end of the day, closing remarks,** 

### 9 **yet another opportunity for anybody who wants to** 

### 10 **make additional comments to make sure we give** 

### 11 **everyone a chance to get everything they want to** 

### 12 **have covered in this meeting today.** 

### 13 **I recognize many of you. Welcome** 

### 14 **again. You are used to the way we conduct these** 

### 15 **meetings, I'm certain. Please, if you would,** 

### 16 **speak one at a time. Say your name for the** 

### 17 **record each time you speak. There will be a** 

### 18 **complete transcript of this meeting made** 

### 19 **available on the DOE website. If you could try** 

### 20 **to be concise, share the air time? There's a lot** 

### 21 **to be said. There's a lot of material here.** 

### 22 **Keep the focus here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 11**  **1 If you'd put your cell phones on**  

### 2 **silent mode and limit sidebar conversations.** 

### 3 **You already have gotten used to turning the** 

### 4 **microphone on and off. That will be helpful.** 

### 5 **And webinar participants let me welcome you** 

### 6 **especially. The Department of Energy is trying** 

### 7 **hard to make these meetings successful to those** 

### 8 **via the web. Please keep your telephones on** 

### 9 **mute and raise your hand to be recognized by our** 

### 10 **web mistress to speak. It has been working that** 

### 11 **when you wish to speak, that we have been able** 

### 12 **to hear you in the room. Hopefully that will** 

### 13 **work again today.** 

### 14 **I think that is most of the** 

### 15 **housekeeping stuff. Do you want to say anything** 

### 16 **before we queue the NEMA slides?** 

### 17 **MS. DeBUTTS: Well, let's see. We** 

### 18 **can talk about the purpose of this meeting.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Please do.** 

### 20 **MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. Hi, everyone.** 

### 21 **So we would like comments today on the energy** 

### 22 **standards levels, comments on methodologies,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 12**  **1 results. We are going to discuss issues related**  

### 2 **to the analyses of the metal halide lamp fixtures** 

### 3 **rulemaking. We encourage the input. We need** 

### 4 **all the data and help we can get so we can come** 

### 5 **up with the best possible rulemaking and the** 

### 6 **standards for the industry and the United** 

### 7 **States.** 

### 8 **If you have comments, just like Doug** 

### 9 **said, please provide them. If you could be** 

### 10 **brief, that's great. We also encourage the** 

### 11 **written comments from everyone.** 

### 12 **Throughout the presentation, you** 

### 13 **will see the boxes, which are issue boxes. And** 

### 14 **we are asking questions throughout the** 

### 15 **presentation. The boxes correspond with the** 

### 16 **numbers that were posted in the rulemaking. So** 

### 17 **they are not going to be in order on the** 

### 18 **presentation, but they correspond to the notice** 

### 19 **of proposed rulemaking issues.** 

### 20 **The deadline for submitting** 

### 21 **comments is October 21st of 2013. If you would** 

### 22 **like to submit the comments, this is how you do**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 13**  **1 this. We have, of course, the electronic**  

### 2 **submissions, which should be addressed to DOE,** 

### 3 **and mention the docket number and regulatory** 

### 4 **identification number as well as the name of the** 

### 5 **rulemaking. They can be sent by Postal Service** 

### 6 **to Brenda Edwards or by courier. And, again,** 

### 7 **you know, just to reiterate, October 21st of 2013** 

### 8 **is the end of the comment period.** 

### 9 **And now, with opening remarks, Alex,** 

### 10 **if you would like to start or --** 

### 11 **MR. BOESENBERG: I could let others** 

### 12 **speak while I pass out my hard copy since I'm** 

### 13 **late.** 

### 14 **MS. DeBUTTS: All right. I'll push** 

### 15 **the buttons, then, if you want me to.** 

### 16 **MR. BOESENBERG: I mean, if anyone** 

### 17 **else besides NEMA would like to speak?** 

### 18 **MS. DeBUTTS: Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. BOESENBERG: I did not hand out** 

### 20 **the hard copy presentations I brought with me.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 22 **Let's do that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 14**  **1 Anyone else here at the outset who**  

### 2 **wishes to make opening statements? Steve** 

### 3 **Rosenstock?** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 5 **Edison Electric Institute. Thank you for this** 

### 6 **opportunity.** 

### 7 **Looking over the NOPR and the** 

### 8 **technical support document, I just want to say** 

### 9 **on behalf of utilities, we appreciate the fact** 

### 10 **that utilities were listed as a subgroup. We** 

### 11 **are a consumer of these products, especially** 

### 12 **those utilities that have outdoor lighting** 

### 13 **programs.** 

### 14 **We are going to have comments later** 

### 15 **about some of the economic analysis. And so,** 

### 16 **like I said, we really appreciate the Department** 

### 17 **recognizing us as a subgroup.** 

### 18 **Just as a general thing, looking** 

### 19 **through the slides and the NOPR, I know the title** 

### 20 **of today's presentation is metal halide** 

### 21 **fixtures, but when I look at all of the technical** 

### 22 **details, it does seem to be all about the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 15**  **1 ballasts. There's nothing in here about I'll**  

### 2 **say fixture efficiency. I'll just use an** 

### 3 **example.** 

### 4 **You could have a fixture with a** 

### 5 **1,000-watt HID lamp and it's putting out one** 

### 6 **lumen, it's putting out 0.00001 foot candles,** 

### 7 **but as long as that ballast meets the efficiency,** 

### 8 **it will meet the DOE requirement.** 

### 9 **So maybe a little truth in labeling** 

### 10 **might be helpful going forward, that when we get** 

### 11 **right down to it, this is a ballast standard,** 

### 12 **just like the fluorescent lamp ballast standard** 

### 13 **is a ballast standard. And I think DOE did a** 

### 14 **very thorough job, but I think maybe a little** 

### 15 **truth in advertising might be helpful.** 

### 16 **Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 18 **Other comments here at the outset?** 

### 19 **Please, Doug?** 

### 20 **MR. YATES: Yes. Doug Yates, Musco** 

### 21 **Lighting. Again, we want to thank the** 

### 22 **Department of Energy for giving us the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 16**  **1 opportunity to be here today.**  

### 2 **Musco has a fairly focused market in** 

### 3 **the 1,500-watt sports lighting area. That is** 

### 4 **the market that is predominantly in 1,500-watt.** 

### 5 **And we have spent the last three-plus decades** 

### 6 **working to reduce energy usage. And we have** 

### 7 **estimated we have probably taken 50 percent out** 

### 8 **of energy usage in the industry or compared to** 

### 9 **the industry. So we certainly are in support of** 

### 10 **any efforts to promote energy conservation.** 

### 11 **With that said, we do have some** 

### 12 **serious concerns regarding the inclusion of the** 

### 13 **1,500-watt in this rulemaking. And we look** 

### 14 **forward to being able to present further** 

### 15 **information on that throughout the course of the** 

### 16 **day.** 

### 17 **Again, thank you.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 19 **Okay. Yes, Joanna?** 

### 20 **MS. MAUER: I'm Joanna Mauer with** 

### 21 **the Appliance Standards Awareness Project.** 

### 22 **We're pleased that this proposed rule has**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 17**  **1 finally been issued after a long delay. This**  

### 2 **rulemaking has the potential to deliver large** 

### 3 **energy savings for the nation and energy bill** 

### 4 **savings for purchasers of metal halide lamp** 

### 5 **fixtures.** 

### 6 **We believe that many of the changes** 

### 7 **that DOE has made since the preliminary** 

### 8 **technical support document was issued have** 

### 9 **improved the analysis. However, we do have some** 

### 10 **questions related to some of the analysis** 

### 11 **results that we find a little puzzling, which** 

### 12 **we'll raise later on and hope to get some** 

### 13 **clarification on.** 

### 14 **As DOE prepares the final rule, we** 

### 15 **urge the Department to adopt the maximum** 

### 16 **cost-effective levels. We note that the life** 

### 17 **cycle cost results for the proposed rule** 

### 18 **indicate that the max tech levels are** 

### 19 **cost-effective for all equipment classes of** 

### 20 **outdoor fixtures based on DOE's analysis** 

### 21 **standards based on these cost-effective levels** 

### 22 **would roughly double the national energy savings**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 18**  **1 compared to the proposed standards.**  

### 2 **We thank DOE for the opportunity to** 

### 3 **participate in today's public meeting, and we** 

### 4 **look forward to the discussion today. Thank** 

### 5 **you.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 7 **Other comments here before we turn** 

### 8 **to NEMA?** 

### 9 **(No response.)** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex?** 

### 11 **MR. BOESENBERG: Hi. I'm Alex** 

### 12 **Boesenberg for the National Electrical** 

### 13 **Manufacturers Association. And, like** 

### 14 **everyone, I'll join in thanking the Department** 

### 15 **of Energy for having today's meeting and for also** 

### 16 **allowing us to speak.** 

### 17 **I have about 15 slides, of which this** 

### 18 **is one. And I will let my members speak to some** 

### 19 **specific topics from their seats or standing in** 

### 20 **the back, as Cheryl English is now. And then** 

### 21 **I'll wrap it up.** 

### 22 **Our goal in making this presentation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 19**  **1 is to highlight certain specific topics that we**  

### 2 **think are the most critical. And we will** 

### 3 **obviously provide further detail, both today** 

### 4 **during the individual discussions on those** 

### 5 **points and then also in our written comments.** 

### 6 **So, with that, I will let Cheryl** 

### 7 **English speak about feasibility of compliance** 

### 8 **dates.** 

### 9 **MS. ENGLISH: Thanks, Alex.** 

### 10 **I'm Cheryl English, Acuity Brands** 

### 11 **Lighting. So one of the key topics that we** 

### 12 **wanted to talk about is, you know, we do** 

### 13 **appreciate that the standard is very specific on** 

### 14 **performance levels for ballasts, but it is a** 

### 15 **fixture standard, which has a lot of** 

### 16 **implications on both the ballast and fixture** 

### 17 **manufacturers. So the first area of concern is** 

### 18 **the feasibility of compliance by the proposed** 

### 19 **January 1st, 2015 date.** 

### 20 **So the key items here are that the** 

### 21 **logistics of this rule are much more complex than** 

### 22 **the original EISA rule. Part of that is because**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 20**  **1 the scope of products is much larger than what**  

### 2 **was included in the EISA and the efficiency** 

### 3 **levels proposed would require many of those** 

### 4 **products to be redesigned. It also impacts new** 

### 5 **channels. So primarily industrial and outdoor** 

### 6 **channels were previously impacted. This now** 

### 7 **gets into retail consumer products as well as** 

### 8 **commercial offices with some of the lower** 

### 9 **wattage products.** 

### 10 **The secondary is limited** 

### 11 **manufacturing resources. We're working with** 

### 12 **fewer human resources than we had in 2007 in** 

### 13 **order to implement the compliance. It was very** 

### 14 **complicated. And of those resources we have, we** 

### 15 **are trying to keep those people focused on R&D** 

### 16 **of new technologies and selling of new** 

### 17 **technologies for higher efficiency, most of that** 

### 18 **being LED technology development.** 

### 19 **The third area is the impact on** 

### 20 **energy. The NOPR really does not result in** 

### 21 **significant gains of energy reductions and** 

### 22 **diverts the speed of the market transformation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 21**  **1 that is already drastically taking place.**  

### 2 **The final area is the three years** 

### 3 **time frame is consistent with what Congress'** 

### 4 **intent was in the EISA 2007. And so we encourage** 

### 5 **DOE to consider a reasonable time frame to manage** 

### 6 **those logistics. And we believe that is the** 

### 7 **full three years.** 

### 8 **Going through just some of the** 

### 9 **logistics of the manufacturers of ballasts, the** 

### 10 **list is relatively long, but I think it is** 

### 11 **important because you need to understand the** 

### 12 **details of what manufacturers actually have to** 

### 13 **do. So we start out evaluating the covered** 

### 14 **products relative to the final rule. And this** 

### 15 **includes new wattage categories and the** 

### 16 **elimination of some exempted products in the** 

### 17 **previous EISA rule, then evaluating the ballast** 

### 18 **efficiency relative to the proposed performance** 

### 19 **or the final rule performance, determining if** 

### 20 **those ballasts can be redesigned within the same** 

### 21 **case size or if they're going to have to be** 

### 22 **modified, eliminating those ballasts and going**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 22**  **1 through the business systems and the**  

### 2 **manufacturing systems to manage not only** 

### 3 **inventory management, manufacturing** 

### 4 **strategies, but working with suppliers and** 

### 5 **resellers of those products.** 

### 6 **The testing of the new and modified** 

### 7 **ballasts is probably one of the most significant** 

### 8 **areas. And you'll remember when the DOE** 

### 9 **certification rule came into place and we** 

### 10 **discovered as that rule was becoming effective** 

### 11 **that there was not the proper number of samples** 

### 12 **of ballasts in order to comply with the CCE rule** 

### 13 **and it took six months just to get the sampling** 

### 14 **of those ballasts, we're now talking about** 

### 15 **ballasts that have to be redesigned, submitted** 

### 16 **for UL testing, and then doing the sampling for** 

### 17 **the CCE rule.** 

### 18 **Education. That includes our** 

### 19 **internal staff as well as marketing sales** 

### 20 **quotations customers and our IT systems because** 

### 21 **they have to make the changes in our order** 

### 22 **processing and inventory management software.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 23**  **1 Then educating the customers, this being OEM**  

### 2 **customers as well as distributors, would be the** 

### 3 **primarily markets for the ballast companies,** 

### 4 **modifying those marketing materials, managing** 

### 5 **orders and contracts. And manufacturers often** 

### 6 **have a year, two-year contracts with their** 

### 7 **customers to buy certain products under certain** 

### 8 **pricing and performance levels. And so when a** 

### 9 **rule comes in place, we have to go back and** 

### 10 **attempt to renegotiate those contracts. And** 

### 11 **it's often very difficult when the prices are** 

### 12 **changing and the performance of the products are** 

### 13 **changing; and then, finally, obtaining the data** 

### 14 **for the certification. Some of these** 

### 15 **activities can be done concurrently, but many of** 

### 16 **them are sequential.** 

### 17 **So moving on to the fixture** 

### 18 **implications, the yellow circle is the key** 

### 19 **products that were covered in EISA. Again,** 

### 20 **that's primarily industrial and outdoor,** 

### 21 **commercial outdoor, types of products. We're** 

### 22 **now talking about a rule that's going to -- the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 24**  **1 lower-wattage bin is going to get into down**  

### 2 **lights, small outdoor fixtures like bollards and** 

### 3 **wall-mounted products. Also, the low-wattage** 

### 4 **bins will impact many products that are in the** 

### 5 **residential marketplace. We'll probably talk** 

### 6 **about this later on, but in the residential** 

### 7 **marketplace, if a consumer is buying a metal** 

### 8 **halide product, even if it's core and coil, it's** 

### 9 **much more efficient than their compact** 

### 10 **fluorescent or incandescent halogen** 

### 11 **alternatives. So cost increases there will** 

### 12 **likely snap that market back to an incandescent** 

### 13 **halogen type of marketplace.** 

### 14 **With the higher wattages, you're** 

### 15 **talking about inclusion of sports lights,** 

### 16 **industrial, heavy industrial, applications that** 

### 17 **have a high ambient temperature, and then things** 

### 18 **like the roadway lighting at infrastructure and** 

### 19 **intersections that is very high light output.** 

### 20 **So the concern here is high light output and/or** 

### 21 **high ambient temperature are areas that LED** 

### 22 **technology is more challenged in terms of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 25**  **1 meeting in today's marketplace. In three**  

### 2 **years, it will probably be an excellent** 

### 3 **alternative, but in less than a year, by 2015,** 

### 4 **there are going to be some gaps that couldn't be** 

### 5 **met with those other technologies.** 

### 6 **Fixture manufacture logistics are** 

### 7 **very similar to the ballasts, but most cases, we** 

### 8 **can't start these logistics until the ballast** 

### 9 **manufacturers have done all of their work. So** 

### 10 **we can't begin evaluating which of the fixtures** 

### 11 **are impacted until we know which ballasts are** 

### 12 **going to have to be redesigned and whether or not** 

### 13 **those ballasts are going to be the same form,** 

### 14 **same size, same thermal characteristics. It's** 

### 15 **very likely on the proposed rule that they will** 

### 16 **not be.** 

### 17 **Once we have determined that** 

### 18 **evaluation, we have to redesign the products.** 

### 19 **And so you take one ballasts can proliferate into** 

### 20 **dozens, if not hundreds, of skews of luminaires** 

### 21 **using that one ballast. And that's a tremendous** 

### 22 **redesign capability for the luminaire**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 26**  **1 manufacturers if the form of that ballast**  

### 2 **thermal characteristics ends up changing.** 

### 3 **Also, the phase-out process is complicated in** 

### 4 **terms of products that we have to decide that we** 

### 5 **are going to eliminate.** 

### 6 **Here again the testing -- and we're** 

### 7 **talking about not only the electrical and safety** 

### 8 **testing, but we're talking about thermal and** 

### 9 **photometric testing.** 

### 10 **Ballasts will have to go through UL** 

### 11 **testing as well as the fixtures. And there is,** 

### 12 **quite honestly, a concern whether there is** 

### 13 **capability of UL and CSA to handle the volume** 

### 14 **that would be going through in this very short** 

### 15 **period of time.** 

### 16 **Again, the education of our internal** 

### 17 **staff as well as customers, in the case of** 

### 18 **luminaire manufacturers, it's more than just OEM** 

### 19 **and distributors. We have contractors,** 

### 20 **designers, home centers, and showrooms that we** 

### 21 **would have to be working with.** 

### 22 **Again, managing the orders and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 27**  **1 contracts, we have contracts with our customers**  

### 2 **that extend one to two years. And those might** 

### 3 **be retailers. They might be utilities. And** 

### 4 **those are all price guarantee and performance** 

### 5 **guarantees, modifying marketing materials,** 

### 6 **doing all of the testing necessary, and** 

### 7 **submissions for our CCE rule.** 

### 8 **So, with all of that, hopefully that** 

### 9 **gives you some idea of the logistics that are** 

### 10 **going to take place from the time the final rule** 

### 11 **is implemented. And we believe that the January** 

### 12 **2015 date is unreasonable. And we again request** 

### 13 **the full three years for implementation.** 

### 14 **Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Cheryl.** 

### 16 **Tom?** 

### 17 **MR. HARDING: I want to address the** 

### 18 **issue really related to electronic ballasts for** 

### 19 **metal halide.** 

### 20 **MR. BOESENBERG: That's Tom Harding** 

### 21 **from Venture.** 

### 22 **MR. HARDING: I'm sorry. Thank**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 28**  **1 you.**  

### 2 **Anyway, the issue is that at the most** 

### 3 **popular products in the 320 to 400-watt range and** 

### 4 **the efficiencies that are described in this** 

### 5 **document are over 90 percent. And we will start** 

### 6 **to see electronic ballasts used. And in that** 

### 7 **range, the industry is split between** 

### 8 **low-frequency square wave and high-frequency.** 

### 9 **And, in fact, the 400-watt max tech level in this** 

### 10 **document is, in fact, done on a high-frequency** 

### 11 **ballast, which is slightly more efficient than** 

### 12 **the square wave electronic.** 

### 13 **I want to caution you. There were** 

### 14 **a couple of issues here that we need to be careful** 

### 15 **of when using electronic high-frequency** 

### 16 **ballasts. And, of course, I think you are aware** 

### 17 **that high-frequency ballasts are not compatible** 

### 18 **with all metal halide lamps. The size of the arc** 

### 19 **tube makes a difference. You get into acoustic** 

### 20 **resonance problems, which cause arc instability** 

### 21 **and possible rupture of the arc tube.** 

### 22 **So they are very particular. Work**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 29**  **1 is being done to try to figure out how to fix this**  

### 2 **problem, but we've found that other issues** 

### 3 **surface when it's just trying to avoid acoustic** 

### 4 **resonance. So that problem still persists.** 

### 5 **And we could end up with compatibility problems,** 

### 6 **as we mentioned below.** 

### 7 **A single-frequency ballast is** 

### 8 **difficult to come up with. You get into** 

### 9 **replacement issues where you can't just replace** 

### 10 **a ballast or a lamp and find compatibility.** 

### 11 **There are no lists floating around in general,** 

### 12 **although some companies may have them. A wet** 

### 13 **works, wet plant works, is a wet ballast.** 

### 14 **Issue two, there are no ANSI** 

### 15 **standards. And that sort of follows from the** 

### 16 **other problem, getting all the metal halides of** 

### 17 **lamps and ballasts to agree where they can** 

### 18 **operate lamps. And sometimes that means lamp** 

### 19 **redesign as well as playing with the** 

### 20 **high-frequency ballasts. There are no** 

### 21 **standards in the ballasts. There are no** 

### 22 **standards in the lamp. Work has just started on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 30**  **1 those projects. And the results will probably**  

### 2 **be very limited products that you can use with** 

### 3 **these high-efficiency, high-frequency** 

### 4 **ballasts.** 

### 5 **So we're working, started the work** 

### 6 **on that, but it will be a few years before that** 

### 7 **gets all done. And it will be limited.** 

### 8 **And last but not least, as hard as** 

### 9 **it may be to believe, it's hard to measure the** 

### 10 **power or the wattage of these high-frequency** 

### 11 **ballasts at frequencies over 100 kilohertz where** 

### 12 **these things tend to be operating, in the 320 to** 

### 13 **400-watt range.** 

### 14 **The measurements are uncertain to** 

### 15 **the level of two to five percent. They're very** 

### 16 **hard to get precise. And if you're looking for** 

### 17 **tenth of a percent numbers, it makes it very,** 

### 18 **very difficult because the max tech level of the** 

### 19 **400-watt that's done on a high frequency is just** 

### 20 **about the limit of where high-frequency ballast** 

### 21 **efficiencies are.** 

### 22 **So it's going to be a very difficult**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 31**  **1 situation to resolve. And, of course, there are**  

### 2 **numbers listed for high-frequency ballasts for** 

### 3 **efficiencies, but, again, no standards, no** 

### 4 **measurement standards, have been issued. So,** 

### 5 **again, the lack of standards is a problem in all** 

### 6 **these kinds of measurements.** 

### 7 **Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. BOESENBERG: And this is Alex** 

### 9 **Boesenberg of NEMA. To make a further** 

### 10 **clarification of Tom's last point, since there** 

### 11 **is no industry test standard for high-frequency** 

### 12 **electronic ballasts, the efficiencies reported** 

### 13 **by the manufacturers are done using their** 

### 14 **internal in-house test procedures. To perform** 

### 15 **an analysis based on catalog data gathered from** 

### 16 **more than one manufacturer, you're combining** 

### 17 **different test procedures. And we're concerned** 

### 18 **about that.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 20 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein with** 

### 21 **Universal Lighting. We wanted to talk about the** 

### 22 **efficiency standards themselves. I think the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 32**  **1 key point here is, as proposed, we believe that**  

### 2 **these standards would only be achievable in some** 

### 3 **lab conditions. The levels would be mostly** 

### 4 **impossible in mass production or serious** 

### 5 **production. And we'll talk about that in a** 

### 6 **second but firstly to focus more on the mid** 

### 7 **wattage and the 150-watt exclusion.** 

### 8 **So basically the way the standard** 

### 9 **reads today, everything less than -- I shouldn't** 

### 10 **say everything -- most of everything that is less** 

### 11 **than/equal to 750 watts would need to be** 

### 12 **redesigned. And then with, in particular, the** 

### 13 **150-watt exclusion from the prior ruling, we** 

### 14 **read this and wonder if that is a mistake the way** 

### 15 **that it is written.** 

### 16 **In your Table 1 or I-1, it stipulates** 

### 17 **a 92.6 percent efficiency, which we believe is** 

### 18 **the max tech of whatever you have pulled. And** 

### 19 **this is just unachievable from a magnetic** 

### 20 **solution.** 

### 21 **And then, just as a clarifying** 

### 22 **point, on the same table, you have other fixtures**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 33**  **1 that operate in less severe conditions operating**  

### 2 **at an 88 percent efficiency. The way that we** 

### 3 **look at the table, it suggests that your feeling** 

### 4 **is that everybody would move to an electronic** 

### 5 **solution, but then we question if you all** 

### 6 **understand that that is probably not going to** 

### 7 **work in those severe applications.** 

### 8 **So we have things such as the -- you** 

### 9 **know, if lightning would happen to strike a** 

### 10 **fixture outside and you have a transient surge** 

### 11 **through the fixture, a magnetic ballast can** 

### 12 **handle that a lot better than electronic** 

### 13 **ballasts would. So there would have to be new** 

### 14 **circuitry that would be added for that. The** 

### 15 **fixtures themselves would have to be redesigned** 

### 16 **that would eliminate the ability for** 

### 17 **distribution replacement in the market. And we** 

### 18 **just see that on the 150-watt, this would be very** 

### 19 **difficult. But what probably happened, rather** 

### 20 **than switch to an electronic standard, is you** 

### 21 **would probably force people up in wattage. So** 

### 22 **you would actually lose efficiency because they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 34**  **1 will probably or most likely according to the**  

### 2 **table, they will move to a 170-watt or a 200-watt** 

### 3 **magnetic solution. So basically you would** 

### 4 **actually reverse what you are trying to do. We** 

### 5 **think that you all should consider keeping the** 

### 6 **exclusion on the 150-watt classification.** 

### 7 **The other piece that we need to take** 

### 8 **into consideration with the certification of** 

### 9 **compliance enforcement is the 99 percent** 

### 10 **confidence factor. Once again, in a magnetic** 

### 11 **ballast, your losses come from basically two** 

### 12 **pieces, the coil, your primary and secondary** 

### 13 **thing, the magnetic wire. And then you have the** 

### 14 **coil. So it's the laminations and the steel.** 

### 15 **What we see is there are variations** 

### 16 **in batch to batch from the material that we get.** 

### 17 **So wire cross-sections can vary plus or minus** 

### 18 **three percent and the core lamination thickness** 

### 19 **can vary plus or minus ten percent. And these** 

### 20 **losses, these variations, will create** 

### 21 **efficiency losses in the ballasts.** 

### 22 **So when you combine the losses of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 35**  **1 raw material plus the 99 percent confidence**  

### 2 **factor, you are looking at batch-to-batch** 

### 3 **variation from material and testing and** 

### 4 **production that will make it nearly impossible** 

### 5 **to reach the levels proposed in serious** 

### 6 **production.** 

### 7 **Now, you could sit in a lab-based** 

### 8 **environment, take the best wire and the best** 

### 9 **laminations, and possibly hit the level. But** 

### 10 **when that translates from the lab in a controlled** 

### 11 **environment to mass production, you are going to** 

### 12 **have a problem.** 

### 13 **So we did graph as an example where** 

### 14 **we see. So the red solid line is the NOPR,** 

### 15 **everything other than 480-volt. And the dotted** 

### 16 **line is the NOPR 480-volt. These are one-piece** 

### 17 **samples. So these are not based off the test** 

### 18 **procedures. It's not four. It's not run** 

### 19 **through any of the 99 percent confidence factor.** 

### 20 **It's just one sample just for the purposes of the** 

### 21 **graph.** 

### 22 **And you can see the majority of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 36**  **1 line to the left, which is about 76 percent of**  

### 2 **the market based off of NEMA data, and then the** 

### 3 **higher wattage to the right, about 24 percent.** 

### 4 **And you can see the group of products that will** 

### 5 **completely need to be re-looked at and** 

### 6 **redesigned.** 

### 7 **And I think the thing that everybody** 

### 8 **needs to take into consideration -- and the** 

### 9 **comment that was made earlier, I believe, from** 

### 10 **Edison Electric that it's not necessarily a** 

### 11 **fixture standard, it's a ballast standard, one** 

### 12 **thing you have to remember is to hit efficiencies** 

### 13 **like this, the only way we can do that in any** 

### 14 **possibility would be to increase size. So it** 

### 15 **immediately impacts the fixture manufacturers** 

### 16 **because, you know, if we try to get to these** 

### 17 **levels, these ballasts are going to increase** 

### 18 **significantly, which means they will not fit in** 

### 19 **the current fixtures, which means they're going** 

### 20 **to have to redesign their fixtures, which also** 

### 21 **means every lamppost out there in the United** 

### 22 **States that has a magnetic ballast that runs it**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 37**  **1 probably won't find a replacement ballast to fit**  

### 2 **in it. So you all need to take that into** 

### 3 **consideration as well.** 

### 4 **The next slide. We just kind of** 

### 5 **zoom in to that less than 750-watt piece just to** 

### 6 **take a better look. The boxes that are** 

### 7 **highlighted there will be the ones that will all** 

### 8 **be affected in terms of size. And at this point,** 

### 9 **we don't even know if we can get to that level.** 

### 10 **I mean, we have not tried to redesign these.** 

### 11 **But the even larger question is the** 

### 12 **150-watt exclusion. And that point, that gap,** 

### 13 **makes no sense. Even when you look at the graph,** 

### 14 **it doesn't correlate. So we believe that you** 

### 15 **all made a mistake there. Maybe you didn't, but** 

### 16 **it sure looks like you did. It doesn't even fit** 

### 17 **the slope of the graph.** 

### 18 **The other thing we would like to talk** 

### 19 **about is the rounding requirements of the** 

### 20 **ruling. The ruling is asking us to have** 

### 21 **accuracy down to the tenth. And I think what** 

### 22 **everybody needs to understand here is that, even**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 38**  **1 under ANSI C82.6, the accuracy of the test lab**  

### 2 **is expected to equal one percent. And when you** 

### 3 **look at the variation that we talked about** 

### 4 **earlier of the raw materials and then the test** 

### 5 **procedure -- and we have done analysis and have** 

### 6 **presented it to you before on bench-to-bench** 

### 7 **variation and material variation. We have been** 

### 8 **through that conversation.** 

### 9 **When you increase this down to the** 

### 10 **tenth percent, actually, it could exclude** 

### 11 **products that passed under EISA 2007, could not** 

### 12 **fail under the new ruling. And we believe that** 

### 13 **that is not an inappropriate look.** 

### 14 **Alex, if you go one more time, just** 

### 15 **as an example, if you look at a situation -- and,** 

### 16 **first off, 88 percent is a lot different than** 

### 17 **88.0, even though they look to be mathematically** 

### 18 **the same. But based off of your rounding** 

### 19 **requirement, if you had a standard that required** 

### 20 **a 92.6 percent efficiency, the lab A could** 

### 21 **measure 92.5. Lab B can measure 92.7 for the** 

### 22 **same product. These are all within the one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 39**  **1 percent accuracy that's granted by ANSI C82.6,**  

### 2 **but based off of the test procedures written,** 

### 3 **that would be a fail.** 

### 4 **So our conclusion here is that the** 

### 5 **regulation should consider the efficiency value** 

### 6 **is an integer and not to the tenth percent or the** 

### 7 **tenth decimal point.** 

### 8 **MR. BOESENBERG: And this is Alex** 

### 9 **Boesenberg. Lastly, slide 15 is a graph of 4** 

### 10 **different representations of metal halide** 

### 11 **ballast sales. In 2008, the NEMA ballast** 

### 12 **section began collecting data for OEM ballast** 

### 13 **sales for covered -- in this case, we have** 

### 14 **represented covered products 50 watts and** 

### 15 **greater. And I'll speak first to the top left.** 

### 16 **That shows magnetic metal halide ballast** 

### 17 **shipments from 2008 forward.** 

### 18 **I guess first I should back up and** 

### 19 **say these graphs do not represent actual sales** 

### 20 **numbers. What they are is indexed graphs. And** 

### 21 **what that means is whatever the sales figure for** 

### 22 **2008 was becomes assigned as number 100. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 40**  **1 that is the start point. You put it up on the**  

### 2 **graph. And then you show a trend up or down** 

### 3 **based on how the sales change to the next data** 

### 4 **point, in this case the next year.** 

### 5 **So what indexes do is allow for the** 

### 6 **data to be kept confidential. And because it is** 

### 7 **an index number, that 100 doesn't correlate to** 

### 8 **an actual figure. When you move from one graph** 

### 9 **to the next, it prevents the backwards math. So** 

### 10 **we recognize that this data can only show trends.** 

### 11 **So, back to the graph on the top** 

### 12 **left, you can look at magnetic metal halide** 

### 13 **ballast shipments from 2008 to projected 2013.** 

### 14 **The 2013 numbers are an annualized 6-month data** 

### 15 **point that we simply multiplied by 2 and say that** 

### 16 **right now our best guess is the sales that we have** 

### 17 **mid-year will continue. And so that's how we** 

### 18 **were able to get one more data point to help with** 

### 19 **the curve.** 

### 20 **So for magnetic, it's pretty** 

### 21 **obvious. Since 2008, the recession happened.** 

### 22 **There was a dip, but the recovery does not appear**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 41**  **1 to be taking place. So magnetic ballasts are**  

### 2 **continuing to experience a decline in sales.** 

### 3 **Moving to the top right, that** 

### 4 **picture shows electronic metal halide ballasts.** 

### 5 **That's certainly the focus of a lot of the** 

### 6 **interest in this rule. Just like every** 

### 7 **industry, there was a down turn after 2008 to** 

### 8 **2009, thanks to the economy. And then** 

### 9 **electronic ballasts did show some increase in** 

### 10 **sales. However, the 2012 to 2013 projections** 

### 11 **showed that this was temporary.** 

### 12 **Now, I will keep going clockwise** 

### 13 **down to the bottom right. That is ballast** 

### 14 **market shares. And, moving to that one, that** 

### 15 **helps illustrate the difference between** 

### 16 **magnetic and electronic. The blue bars are** 

### 17 **magnetic sales. And the orange bar is** 

### 18 **electronic sales. So if you're looking at the** 

### 19 **top right graph and you go, "Oh, boy, electronic.** 

### 20 **Boy, their sales more than doubled," well, the** 

### 21 **percent market share is very small.** 

### 22 **So then you can go to the bottom left**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 42**  **1 corner and see that is the total metal halide**  

### 2 **ballast shipments when you add the two together.** 

### 3 **And that shows it raised a little after 2009.** 

### 4 **And based on the data we have, it looks like it** 

### 5 **has leveled off. And so the message is the** 

### 6 **projections in the NOPR based on the TSD analysis** 

### 7 **that expect there to be a regaining of the 2006** 

### 8 **sales levels and that drives a lot of the** 

### 9 **feasibility in the cost payback analysis is for** 

### 10 **our ballast data, that is not supported.** 

### 11 **The conclusion I draw from this and** 

### 12 **I think a lot of my members draw from it is metal** 

### 13 **halide product ballast and fixture sales will** 

### 14 **continue, but they are not going to grow** 

### 15 **appreciably. In a sense, it's had its day. It** 

### 16 **has a wide installed base. There will still be** 

### 17 **replacement and people wanting to use what they** 

### 18 **have used before, but something is eroding the** 

### 19 **market besides the economy. And the obvious** 

### 20 **answer for that is light-emitting diode, LED,** 

### 21 **technology, which we can see on our streets** 

### 22 **outside here.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 43**  **1 And that is our final graph, slide**  

### 2 **for the presentation. There are some backup** 

### 3 **slides, which I invite folks to read, that** 

### 4 **discuss some of the different technologies, but** 

### 5 **we didn't want to belabor that this morning.** 

### 6 **Thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 8 **Additional comments, perhaps final** 

### 9 **comments, before we move on? And I would invite** 

### 10 **anyone who is joining us via the web to raise your** 

### 11 **hand and make a comment as well if you wish to.** 

### 12 **(No response.)** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Nothing yet. So,** 

### 14 **then, Lucy DeButts, we are going to proceed with** 

### 15 **the content you have in the PowerPoint slides.** 

### 16 **I believe we are now on slide 10.** 

### 17 **MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. So during this** 

### 18 **portion of our meeting, we will be talking about** 

### 19 **the overview of the rulemaking, scope, and the** 

### 20 **test procedure.** 

### 21 **By the way, throughout the** 

### 22 **presentation, the folks from Navigant and PNNL**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 44**  **1 will be helping me and presenting.**  

### 2 **So let's begin with the overview of** 

### 3 **the rulemaking. This slide represents the** 

### 4 **metal halide lamp fixtures rulemaking schedule.** 

### 5 **You can see that the framework was published in** 

### 6 **December of 2009. The NOPR and preliminary TSDs** 

### 7 **were published in April of 2011. Yes, it took** 

### 8 **a little bit of time to finally get the NOPR out,** 

### 9 **but we managed to do so in August of 2013. And** 

### 10 **what we are projecting is to publish the final** 

### 11 **rule in January of 2014.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **A question based on the NEMA presentation. Is** 

### 15 **DOE still -- well, again, is the final rule to** 

### 16 **be published in January after receiving all the** 

### 17 **comments in late October? You're giving** 

### 18 **yourselves two months, three months?** 

### 19 **MS. DeBUTTS: Well, that's what we** 

### 20 **strive for.** 

### 21 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: And, again, based** 

### 22 **on the NEMA presentation, is DOE still planning**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 45**  **1 to have an effective date of the standard in**  

### 2 **January of 2015?** 

### 3 **MS. DeBUTTS: I'll get that --** 

### 4 **MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from** 

### 5 **the General Counsel's Office. The NOPR** 

### 6 **proposed a date of January 2015 based on our** 

### 7 **understanding of the statute. And so that is** 

### 8 **what is in there now. We are happy to take** 

### 9 **comment on that.** 

### 10 **Of course, we have already had the** 

### 11 **NEMA presentation. We haven't heard any** 

### 12 **specific dates on what would be more feasible** 

### 13 **other than three years out. Perhaps there are** 

### 14 **other viewpoints on that. We would take into** 

### 15 **consideration whether that three years that** 

### 16 **potentially others have suggested is** 

### 17 **congressional intent could apply. But right** 

### 18 **now the NOPR proposed January 2015 based on our** 

### 19 **understanding of the statute.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 21 **Was EISA 2007 that statute?** 

### 22 **MR. ALTMAN: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 46**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Back to Lucy.** 

### 3 **MS. DeBUTTS: If no more questions,** 

### 4 **this slide represents the factors that the DOE** 

### 5 **considers while doing the analysis. And you can** 

### 6 **go through them later, but there are seven** 

### 7 **factors that we consider. I'm sure that most of** 

### 8 **the stakeholders here are familiar with them.** 

### 9 **So before we dive in into the** 

### 10 **presentation, let's take a look at the current** 

### 11 **standard. And so, as was mentioned before, we** 

### 12 **are calling this the metal halide lamp fixture** 

### 13 **standard in proposing the definition for this** 

### 14 **rulemaking, which is the light fixture for the** 

### 15 **general lighting application designed to** 

### 16 **operate with a metal halide and ballast.** 

### 17 **The current standard was prescribed** 

### 18 **by EISA or, as some call it, EISA. Maybe we** 

### 19 **should standardize that -- I don't know -- in** 

### 20 **2007. And it mandated that a minimum ballast** 

### 21 **efficiency for ballasts sold in metal halide** 

### 22 **fixtures starting on January 1st of 2009, as it's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 47**  **1 shown on this slide in the table in the middle.**  

### 2 **There are also exclusions for** 

### 3 **lamps-rated wattages from 150 to 500 watts.** 

### 4 **Sorry. It covered the lamps from 150 to 500** 

### 5 **watts, but it also included exclusion for** 

### 6 **fixtures with regulated-lag ballasts, fixtures** 

### 7 **with 480-watt electronic ballasts, and 150-watt** 

### 8 **fixtures rated for use in wet locations and** 

### 9 **elevated temperatures.** 

### 10 **So as far as the scope for this** 

### 11 **rulemaking, for the standards in this NOPR, DOE** 

### 12 **was able to consider additional metal halide** 

### 13 **fixtures previously not covered by EISA. We** 

### 14 **heard from NEMA on that subject as well.** 

### 15 **We are proposing to maintain the** 

### 16 **exemptions for fixtures with regulated-lag** 

### 17 **ballasts and fixtures with 480-volt electronic** 

### 18 **ballasts. However, we are proposing to expand** 

### 19 **the coverage to include fixtures from 50 to 2,000** 

### 20 **watts, including the previously exempt 150-watt** 

### 21 **fixtures that were rated to use in wet locations** 

### 22 **and contain ballasts rated for temperatures**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 48**  **1 above 50 degrees Celsius.**  

### 2 **So we have heard already but we seek** 

### 3 **further comments on the appropriateness of** 

### 4 **continuing the exemption for the regulated-lag** 

### 5 **ballasts. And the second issue, we would seek** 

### 6 **comments to continue the exclusion for 480-volt** 

### 7 **electronic ballasts.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Boesenberg.** 

### 9 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 10 **Boesenberg with NEMA. The NEMA agrees with the** 

### 11 **continued exemptions of those two products** 

### 12 **mentioned and refers to our earlier comments on** 

### 13 **150-watt products.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, please?** 

### 15 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from** 

### 16 **Philips. Actually, the 150-watt, no matter** 

### 17 **what you do with it, there is no way that you will** 

### 18 **be able to meet the new efficiency requirement.** 

### 19 **No matter how big the ballast is, there is no way.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: From an engineering** 

### 21 **point of view?** 

### 22 **MR. OOMMEN: From an engineering**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 49**  **1 standpoint.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Okay. Okay.** 

### 3 **Thank you.** 

### 4 **Additional comments on these two** 

### 5 **issue boxes? Louis Starr?** 

### 6 **MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with** 

### 7 **NEEA. I am wondering if there are any** 

### 8 **efficiency requirements that the 150-watt lamps** 

### 9 **would be able to meet such that they could be** 

### 10 **regulated.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex?** 

### 12 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg** 

### 13 **with NEMA. My members are discussing that. We** 

### 14 **do not have a final proposal yet. We are** 

### 15 **attempting to develop a proposal for all of the** 

### 16 **items listed in the NOPR summary. One of the** 

### 17 **challenges we are facing is internal discussions** 

### 18 **on whether or not there is a better way to** 

### 19 **delineate the product classes. And that is a** 

### 20 **hurdle I am still trying to make it over before** 

### 21 **I can even come up with numbers.** 

### 22 **MR. STARR: Do you have a sense? It**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 50**  **1 sounded like earlier in the NEMA presentation**  

### 2 **that 92 -- I think you all think that may be an** 

### 3 **incorrect number -- is something on the** 

### 4 **magnitude of 88 more appropriate or is it there's** 

### 5 **not really a number that you can really set on** 

### 6 **until you get classes defined?** 

### 7 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 8 **Boesenberg. I don't have the number yet. I'm** 

### 9 **sorry. We will have something by the time we** 

### 10 **file written comments.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Daniel?** 

### 12 **MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young,** 

### 13 **California Utilities. And just another** 

### 14 **question, what's the primary technical hurdle** 

### 15 **that prevents these from being more efficient or** 

### 16 **being made to be more efficient?** 

### 17 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from** 

### 18 **Philips. Basically, the I squared ballast** 

### 19 **loss. If you look at the I squared ballast** 

### 20 **losses and the magnetic losses, all of those** 

### 21 **things are concerning. You have a limitation on** 

### 22 **how high you can go with the stack heights. And**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 51**  **1 so once you reach a plateau, that's it. There**  

### 2 **are no more things to give. And it just consumes** 

### 3 **more energy. That's about it. And the** 

### 4 **limitation is 150 watts, the lamp voltage is 90** 

### 5 **volts. So the lamp itself is higher than a** 

### 6 **175-watt lamp. So that also creates additional** 

### 7 **losses to operate that lamp.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel?** 

### 9 **MR. YOUNG: And then what about** 

### 10 **using electronic ballasts?** 

### 11 **MR. OOMMEN: Yes, there are options** 

### 12 **for electronic ballasts, but in some cases, the** 

### 13 **sites might be too big for existing fixtures.** 

### 14 **And most of the sources right now have been** 

### 15 **transferred to LED designs, rather than focusing** 

### 16 **on old technologies. So, I mean, in reality,** 

### 17 **you know, we have seen the sources cut almost** 

### 18 **down to 25 percent from 2005 levels.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Daniel?** 

### 20 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein with** 

### 21 **Universal Lighting. Just another thing on the** 

### 22 **electronic piece, the electronic HID ballasts**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 52**  **1 originally made for high-end retail**  

### 2 **applications, like your Louis Vuittons and your** 

### 3 **Coach stores, and they're made to go inside a** 

### 4 **very controlled atmosphere for a very specialty** 

### 5 **clean light, the assumption that you can take** 

### 6 **that movement outside at that wattage range, you** 

### 7 **have to think about the conditions the ballasts** 

### 8 **operate in. So you have extreme temperature** 

### 9 **changes, which electronic is not going to like,** 

### 10 **which magnetic loves. You are also going to** 

### 11 **have the possibility of wet locations, which** 

### 12 **electronic is not going to like and magnetic is** 

### 13 **fine with.** 

### 14 **Then you have the transient issue we** 

### 15 **talked about earlier, and that is a big issue.** 

### 16 **I mean, when you are outside in a hazardous-type** 

### 17 **location, wet, extreme temperature, if you get** 

### 18 **any kind of extreme transient voltage through** 

### 19 **the power line, which you would get from a** 

### 20 **lightning strike, it will fry the ballasts. So** 

### 21 **you're going to have to find some way to** 

### 22 **accommodate that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 53**  **1 This is the same reason why when you**  

### 2 **go into large manufacturing operations, you** 

### 3 **don't see, even today, you don't see, linear** 

### 4 **fluorescent being used in there. They still use** 

### 5 **magnetic HID because when somebody turns on a big** 

### 6 **stamping machine on a 480-volt line, it fries the** 

### 7 **ballast, the electronic ballast.** 

### 8 **So this is a known thing. I think** 

### 9 **this isn't anything that is secretive. I mean,** 

### 10 **you go into a big manufacturing facility, a big** 

### 11 **stamping plant. Look up. It is going to be** 

### 12 **magnetic HID in that facility. So you are** 

### 13 **asking to move that in an extreme use** 

### 14 **environment, the electronic ballasts out there.** 

### 15 **It's just it's not a smart move at all. I mean,** 

### 16 **you're asking for a lot of problems.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis?** 

### 18 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.** 

### 19 **I guess the question is we heard that the size** 

### 20 **of the fixture limits the capacity of making a** 

### 21 **bigger ballast and then some of the things, like** 

### 22 **transient voltages in the ballasts themselves.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 54**  **1 I guess a thought that comes to me is that if you**  

### 2 **have one design and you are expecting LEDs to** 

### 3 **take over the market, there really is no driver** 

### 4 **for making it more efficient, whether it is** 

### 5 **changing your fixture size or in the case of LED,** 

### 6 **they also had transient voltage problems, too,** 

### 7 **but they have kind of worked that out because** 

### 8 **they know it's the technology of the future. So** 

### 9 **kind of my thought is, what is going to be the** 

### 10 **driver for efficiency if it's not standards?** 

### 11 **Because if you know you are losing market share,** 

### 12 **why would you invest in research and** 

### 13 **development?** 

### 14 **And so I am kind of wondering from** 

### 15 **the manufacturer's viewpoint, how is the market** 

### 16 **drove to more efficiency or is the plan just to** 

### 17 **figure that LED will replace it and that** 

### 18 **efficiency won't really, you know, be a concern** 

### 19 **at that point?** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex?** 

### 21 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 22 **Boesenberg for NEMA. Any of my members who wish**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 55**  **1 can answer that. The NEMA response is that is**  

### 2 **a business decision. And so certainly some** 

### 3 **people might agree with the NOPR because they** 

### 4 **decided to move their business out of HID, for** 

### 5 **instance.** 

### 6 **But overall my goal is to preserve** 

### 7 **the market and competition, capitalism, and keep** 

### 8 **the prices down and the options up. And when we** 

### 9 **tighten things too far, you get a loss of** 

### 10 **competition, manufacturers leaving, and then we** 

### 11 **risk also losing performance options because** 

### 12 **everyone goes to a commodity cheapest they can** 

### 13 **make. And that is another thing. I am not sure** 

### 14 **that applies to HID as much as some of the other** 

### 15 **lighting products I do, but that is one of our** 

### 16 **constant concerns.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith?** 

### 18 **MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with** 

### 19 **Philips. I think there is another thing that we** 

### 20 **need to get out in this discussion. And that is** 

### 21 **the fact that this particular market has been** 

### 22 **driven by energy efficiency for years. This is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 56**  **1 nothing new. So to think that there are**  

### 2 **opportunities to further increase the** 

### 3 **efficiency has already been explored because** 

### 4 **that is how we compete today. And so we have** 

### 5 **drained every last watt out of these devices we** 

### 6 **possibly can and still make them economically** 

### 7 **viable.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 9 **Alex?** 

### 10 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 11 **Boesenberg again. I would add to Keith's** 

### 12 **comment. Perhaps it's worth pointing out or** 

### 13 **trying to clarify. While we're looking at this** 

### 14 **from a consumer product standpoint, then the** 

### 15 **authority to conduct this rulemaking is a highly** 

### 16 **commercial market. It satisfies the** 

### 17 **requirement for consumer product according to** 

### 18 **statute, but you are looking at a very high** 

### 19 **commercial usage rate, which for someone like** 

### 20 **sports lighting, the people who own that** 

### 21 **facility are aggressively trying to manage their** 

### 22 **costs. So they're already trying to get the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 57**  **1 most efficient products.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna?** 

### 3 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just** 

### 4 **regarding the challenges associated with** 

### 5 **applying electronic ballasts in outdoor** 

### 6 **applications, my understanding is that DOE has** 

### 7 **thoroughly analyzed the challenges. It has** 

### 8 **also incorporated the additional costs that are** 

### 9 **associated with being able to successfully apply** 

### 10 **electronic ballasts in outdoor applications.** 

### 11 **So it seems like that has certainly been taken** 

### 12 **into account in the analysis that DOE has** 

### 13 **conducted.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 15 **MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with** 

### 16 **NEEA. I know one way to make fixtures more** 

### 17 **compliant is to make bigger housing, which is the** 

### 18 **difficulty Philips was talking about. If you** 

### 19 **have a bigger area for housing, you can have a** 

### 20 **more efficient one because that is one of the** 

### 21 **challenges.** 

### 22 **So I am kind of wondering of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 58**  **1 market -- I am all for a free market, too, but**  

### 2 **I am wondering if it's working if, really, we** 

### 3 **just pointed out why you can't have a more** 

### 4 **efficient ballast and it was just mentioned here** 

### 5 **that if you have a bigger box to put the ballast** 

### 6 **in, you can have a more efficient fixture or a** 

### 7 **ballast light lamp efficiency.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Becky?** 

### 9 **MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer with** 

### 10 **Eaton Cooper. As you discussed, there would be** 

### 11 **a huge cost and huge investment to comply with** 

### 12 **this NOPR. And my company, for one, has not made** 

### 13 **the decision because most of our resources right** 

### 14 **now are really concentrated on solid state** 

### 15 **lighting. That is, in our opinion, the light of** 

### 16 **the future. So we have actually not made the** 

### 17 **decision if we will, in fact, invest in a** 

### 18 **technology that we believe has already reached** 

### 19 **its max tech.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 21 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 22 **EEI. Just from a, I'll say consumer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 59**  **1 perspective, for entities with existing**  

### 2 **fixtures, if you say you have to increase the** 

### 3 **size of your fixture to put in a new replacement** 

### 4 **ballast, I think that is going to really harm the** 

### 5 **economics. I mean, they're already in the** 

### 6 **tables we're going to get into later that there** 

### 7 **is some showing 14-year median paybacks for a** 

### 8 **ballast that is only going to last 10 years.** 

### 9 **If you have to resize a housing,** 

### 10 **replace a housing, you know, replace the box,** 

### 11 **I'll just put it that way. I wouldn't be** 

### 12 **surprised if that changes the payback to 20** 

### 13 **years, 25 years. I mean, I think it has a** 

### 14 **significant impact on the life cycle cost** 

### 15 **analysis. If that is basically the requirement** 

### 16 **where, okay, the solution is a bigger ballast for** 

### 17 **all fixtures, including existing fixtures, then** 

### 18 **the economics could get a lot worst in my view.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl English?** 

### 20 **MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English,** 

### 21 **Acuity Brands. Really, kind of following on** 

### 22 **Steve's comments, two things I'd like to address**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 60**  **1 are with larger size, we have to make the**  

### 2 **fixtures larger. We're using more natural** 

### 3 **resources. So from a sustainability** 

### 4 **standpoint, fixture manufacturers have this** 

### 5 **conflicting environmental impact of energy and** 

### 6 **using steel, aluminum, copper materials. So** 

### 7 **the smaller size does have an environmental** 

### 8 **impact, positive environmental impact.** 

### 9 **Also, a larger size if we had to** 

### 10 **redesign for outdoor fixtures would require** 

### 11 **larger poles. And they're again more resources** 

### 12 **in terms of the pole and wind-loading** 

### 13 **requirements.** 

### 14 **With regard to the payback, DOE has** 

### 15 **done an analysis. And my comment here is that** 

### 16 **it is within the provisions for DOE's** 

### 17 **determination of cost-effectiveness. I think** 

### 18 **there is a huge disconnect between the** 

### 19 **guidelines of what DOE works under on** 

### 20 **cost-effectiveness in the marketplace. The** 

### 21 **paybacks don't match at all.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chris, do you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 61**  **1 want in here?**  

### 2 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Yes. Just Chris** 

### 3 **Holstein with Universal Lighting. Just one** 

### 4 **other thing. I mean, when we talk about this** 

### 5 **ruling, really, there are two pieces here.** 

### 6 **There is the OEM with our counterparts here that** 

### 7 **are making new fixtures. Then there's the** 

### 8 **replacement market. And, as Chacko said of** 

### 9 **Philips, you know, the way to make these things** 

### 10 **more efficient is to make them bigger, which** 

### 11 **changes the outside housing. But you guys have** 

### 12 **to remember the installed base is a big issue.** 

### 13 **I mean, when you drive down the street today on** 

### 14 **your way home, look up at all the lights and think** 

### 15 **about it. If that thing has to get bigger, the** 

### 16 **poles have to get bigger. If those things have** 

### 17 **to be redone, the replacement market, it will be** 

### 18 **a nightmare.** 

### 19 **And then just the other piece I** 

### 20 **wanted to say is on the LED side, when we come** 

### 21 **to regulations like this, it forces** 

### 22 **manufacturers to go back and work on technology**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 62**  **1 that is on its way out and declining. And it**  

### 2 **just completely diverts resources from LED** 

### 3 **development. And that's just, you know, we like** 

### 4 **to be focusing on the future and stop focusing** 

### 5 **on the old technology. Rulings like this make** 

### 6 **us focus on the old technology.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex?** 

### 8 **MR. HOFMANN: Alex Hofmann, APPA.** 

### 9 **As nonprofit consumers of these types of** 

### 10 **products for street lighting, we are very** 

### 11 **concerned about any type of lighting solution** 

### 12 **that ends up disliking extreme conditions or wet** 

### 13 **conditions or lightning conditions and doesn't** 

### 14 **tolerate large draws.** 

### 15 **Also, we're very concerned about** 

### 16 **options and prices. And, again, the fit is a big** 

### 17 **issue for us. For existing lighting fixtures,** 

### 18 **you're talking a large increase in cost. I'd** 

### 19 **say, you know, if you end up in a situation where** 

### 20 **you just can't get the product you need to** 

### 21 **replace the ballasts on, say, the fixture you** 

### 22 **have, for new things, talking large poles,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 63**  **1 different design specs, wind loading, those are**  

### 2 **also significant cost adders. So I would just** 

### 3 **like to make our concerns known.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 5 **Joanna, do you want to comment here?** 

### 6 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Yes,** 

### 7 **just briefly. My understanding is also that DOE** 

### 8 **has thoroughly analyzed this question of would** 

### 9 **fixtures have to be redesigned, you know, would** 

### 10 **ballasts increase in size. And I believe that** 

### 11 **the conclusion is that ballasts would not need** 

### 12 **to increase in size to meet the levels that were** 

### 13 **proposed in the NOPR.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis and then** 

### 15 **Daniel?** 

### 16 **MR. STARR: You know, my point is** 

### 17 **not necessarily for advocating for bigger** 

### 18 **fixtures, the same size fixtures. My point more** 

### 19 **is that they mention the free capital system.** 

### 20 **The size of the fixture to some extent was picked** 

### 21 **at some point in the past. And my point is that** 

### 22 **the standards process helped the free and the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 64**  **1 capitalism or free market system work. In this**  

### 2 **case, the standards in general, not necessarily** 

### 3 **particularly these ones, but my point is that the** 

### 4 **free market is not necessarily working without** 

### 5 **the operation of standards interacting in that** 

### 6 **market.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel?** 

### 8 **MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young,** 

### 9 **California Utilities. Just to clarify that,** 

### 10 **again, this is a new fixture standard. Right?** 

### 11 **So it wouldn't apply to existing fixtures, where** 

### 12 **you would have to replace the ballasts. Is** 

### 13 **that --** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris on the record.** 

### 15 **Go ahead. Say it.** 

### 16 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris Holstein,** 

### 17 **Universal Lighting. It's all ballasts. It's** 

### 18 **distribution and OEM. It's everything. It's** 

### 19 **not just new fixtures.** 

### 20 **MS. DeBUTTS: Matthew?** 

### 21 **MR. WALKER: This rulemaking does** 

### 22 **only cover ballasts used in new fixtures.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 65**  **1 That's a clarification to make. And then I**  

### 2 **wanted to ask the question, particularly of** 

### 3 **manufacturers, given that information, is the** 

### 4 **expectation that the replacement ballast market** 

### 5 **would follow the efficiency of ballasts used in** 

### 6 **new or would there be two ballast efficiencies** 

### 7 **in the market?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: I want to go back to** 

### 9 **Chris. And you can clarify that you were** 

### 10 **thinking, the potential for misunderstanding** 

### 11 **here. Go ahead.** 

### 12 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Yes. The intent of** 

### 13 **the ruling, irregardless, nobody is going to** 

### 14 **continue down the path of manufacturing the** 

### 15 **complete life cycle and marketing and selling on** 

### 16 **two efficiency standards of a product, a class** 

### 17 **that is declining, right? I mean, as a company,** 

### 18 **we are not going to keep the old set and then** 

### 19 **redesign every single one of those ballasts and** 

### 20 **then have a second set. I mean, that assumption** 

### 21 **by Navigant is absolutely incorrect. I don't** 

### 22 **think there is a manufacturer in here -- and they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 66**  **1 can correct me if they're wrong -- who will keep**  

### 2 **two lines with this ruling. Whatever your** 

### 3 **intent is, you are effectively writing out into** 

### 4 **one rule that affects the entire market.** 

### 5 **Can I address a comment that was made** 

### 6 **by the lady here as well?** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. HOLSTEIN: I don't remember her** 

### 9 **name.** 

### 10 **The NOPR itself actually believes** 

### 11 **that the size of the ballasts will not increase.** 

### 12 **And they are absolutely 100 percent incorrect.** 

### 13 **They are wrong, which means that all of the** 

### 14 **financial analysis, the payback, the impact to** 

### 15 **manufacturers, the impact to the market, none of** 

### 16 **that in this analysis is correct. They are** 

### 17 **absolutely incorrect. These things will** 

### 18 **increase in size.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: I think we're** 

### 20 **talking about the difference between like a** 

### 21 **statutory interpretation and the practical** 

### 22 **application. I think that's the divide here**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 67**  **1 that we're wrangling with. Let's make sure**  

### 2 **we're clear on this.** 

### 3 **Rebecca?** 

### 4 **MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer, Eaton** 

### 5 **Cooper. To answer Matthew's question, we do** 

### 6 **understand the ruling that legacy products are** 

### 7 **the install base. We could still provide the** 

### 8 **previous standard on our ballasts, 88 percent.** 

### 9 **We are a lighting manufacturer of** 

### 10 **fixtures, but we also produce our own ballasts.** 

### 11 **But we for one would in no way consider keeping** 

### 12 **two different ballast efficiency standards.** 

### 13 **It's just not economically feasible.** 

### 14 **And, to Chris' point, the ballasts** 

### 15 **would indeed have to grow in size.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Steve** 

### 17 **Rosenstock?** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 19 **EEI. I guess I'm a little confused because when** 

### 20 **I look at table I.1, I don't see anything in that** 

### 21 **table about replacement fixtures. It just says** 

### 22 **this is a standard for all new fixtures. It's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 68**  **1 really a ballast, like I said before. I know it**  

### 2 **will affect every fixture. But to me, this** 

### 3 **reads like, "For any new ballast meeting these** 

### 4 **specs, regardless if it's going to an existing** 

### 5 **or new fixture, it has to meet these standards."** 

### 6 **I didn't see anything in here -- what?** 

### 7 **MR. BOESENBERG: The rule is for** 

### 8 **fixtures.** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. The rule is** 

### 10 **for fixtures. Okay. So people,** 

### 11 **manufacturers, will be allowed to make** 

### 12 **replacement ballasts for existing fixtures. Is** 

### 13 **that what I'm hearing?** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Matthew?** 

### 15 **MR. WALKER: Yes. This is Matthew** 

### 16 **Walker, Navigant. That is the correct** 

### 17 **description from a statutory/legal point of** 

### 18 **view. This rulemaking, the scope of the** 

### 19 **rulemaking, is to affect ballasts sold in new** 

### 20 **fixtures. However, it seems that there is a** 

### 21 **conversation about the practical impact on the** 

### 22 **replacement market. But technically from a DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 69**  **1 statutory point of view, it is a rulemaking that**  

### 2 **covers ballasts shipped in new fixtures, sold in** 

### 3 **new fixtures.** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Only in new** 

### 5 **fixtures?** 

### 6 **MR. WALKER: Correct.** 

### 7 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: As, I'll say, like** 

### 8 **a fluorescent lamp ballast, it was all ballast,** 

### 9 **regardless of new or existing after --** 

### 10 **MR. WALKER: Fluorescent lamp.** 

### 11 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. Okay.** 

### 12 **That's why I was thinking about the fluorescent** 

### 13 **lamp ballast. Okay. Thank you very much.** 

### 14 **That helps clarify.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: I do think we gained** 

### 16 **some clarity on this point. I think we're** 

### 17 **getting there. Any additional comments on this** 

### 18 **before we move on to other matters? Daniel?** 

### 19 **MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young,** 

### 20 **California Utilities. Just a quick comment.** 

### 21 **So the issue of the ballasts increasing in size,** 

### 22 **I think that really only applies to the magnetic**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 70**  **1 ballasts, correct? If it's an electronic**  

### 2 **ballast, it doesn't increase in size. There are** 

### 3 **other concerns that the gentleman from Universal** 

### 4 **described, but, again, I know that in the NOPR,** 

### 5 **DOE has tried to address them. Maybe you have** 

### 6 **concerns with their assumptions. And maybe** 

### 7 **we'll talk about that later, but --** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, do you wish to** 

### 9 **comment?** 

### 10 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 11 **Boesenberg with NEMA. I guess my members can** 

### 12 **provide additional scientific detail, but the** 

### 13 **added capabilities of weather-resistant, surge** 

### 14 **resistance, and whatnot temperature, thermal** 

### 15 **ruggedness, you have to add something to do that.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko?** 

### 17 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips** 

### 18 **Electronics. You know, I see as far as the** 

### 19 **efficiency is concerned, even for electronics,** 

### 20 **it has saturated for low-frequency ballasts.** 

### 21 **Of course, I see, you know, as we mentioned** 

### 22 **earlier, there are no standards for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 71**  **1 high-frequency electronic ballasts right now.**  

### 2 **And so there are some measurement errors that** 

### 3 **could be used that give you a false reading** 

### 4 **basically.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: I want to make sure.** 

### 6 **Are you moving us on? I want to clear this up** 

### 7 **now as best we can. Any additional comments on** 

### 8 **this before moving on? Yes, please? That** 

### 9 **microphone ought to be on.** 

### 10 **MR. GREEN: John Green with Eaton** 

### 11 **Cooper Lighting. There was a point made that** 

### 12 **replacement ballasts could be the same size.** 

### 13 **Unfortunately, it brings up another issue that** 

### 14 **we have fixtures that get damaged. And in an** 

### 15 **installation of hundreds of fixtures, you may** 

### 16 **have to replace one or two in the future. And** 

### 17 **if they're bigger size, they're going to have** 

### 18 **to -- if it's a new fixture, it would have to take** 

### 19 **the bigger ballast. So we end up with fixtures** 

### 20 **not matching in installations. So I think** 

### 21 **that's an important fact to keep in mind.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: All that embedded**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 72**  **1 infrastructure?**  

### 2 **MR. GREEN: Yes.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes. Gotcha. I** 

### 4 **think we've got that now.** 

### 5 **Okay. Louis?** 

### 6 **MR. STARR: Kind of one question.** 

### 7 **I can understand that maybe a company wouldn't** 

### 8 **produce both new ballasts, at the same time maybe** 

### 9 **keep an existing line. But there are companies** 

### 10 **that do nothing but provide replacement parts.** 

### 11 **Auto industry is one. You can have companies do** 

### 12 **nothing but provide replacement parts for that.** 

### 13 **Wouldn't that be the same in electrical? In** 

### 14 **other words, there's a market. If there are** 

### 15 **100,000 customers out there that need** 

### 16 **replacement ballasts, someone will be making** 

### 17 **those replacement ballasts for that market. If** 

### 18 **you're just continuing the existing line that** 

### 19 **you have, it seems like that that would be an** 

### 20 **obvious solution to me. If you could speak to** 

### 21 **it, that would be good.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 73**  **1 MR. HOLSTEIN: Yes. This is Chris,**  

### 2 **Universal. I mean, at the end of the day, there** 

### 3 **are most likely four people or four** 

### 4 **manufacturing entities that represent probably** 

### 5 **80 to 90 percent of this market in the U.S.** 

### 6 **From a feasibility standpoint and** 

### 7 **future standpoint for those companies, they are** 

### 8 **going to put their efforts towards the solid** 

### 9 **state lighting. They are not going to go out and** 

### 10 **want to redesign in the manufacture and the** 

### 11 **inventory and increase all of their carrying** 

### 12 **costs and not go down the list to have two** 

### 13 **efficiency lines on HID. Does that open up** 

### 14 **competition for offshore manufacturers to come** 

### 15 **on board? You know, it can. And what it is** 

### 16 **going to do is it is going to bring in product** 

### 17 **that is not as well made as what is in the market** 

### 18 **today that is going to have warranty problems and** 

### 19 **quality problems. And it is not going to be a** 

### 20 **pretty picture at the end of the day.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: I think we've pretty** 

### 22 **much covered this one. But, Rebecca, if you've**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 74**  **1 got final comments?**  

### 2 **MS. RAINER: Just one little** 

### 3 **comment to that. When you remarked that there** 

### 4 **could be other people that come in just for the** 

### 5 **replacement market, a lighting fixture usually** 

### 6 **is UL-listed with only a certain type of ballast.** 

### 7 **For instance, mine may be only listed with my** 

### 8 **ballast. Once you bring in another supplier's** 

### 9 **ballasts, you may have fit issues. You may have** 

### 10 **thermal issues because they're not all the same.** 

### 11 **So you have to be careful when you're replacing** 

### 12 **that you replace as much as possible in kind with** 

### 13 **what you have out there already.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm** 

### 15 **returning to Lucy. And we're going to continue** 

### 16 **with the PowerPoint slides that you have in front** 

### 17 **of you.** 

### 18 **MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. So at this** 

### 19 **point, I would like to discuss the system** 

### 20 **approach that DOE considered. So before** 

### 21 **deciding on ballast efficiency for this rule,** 

### 22 **the DOE also considered three system approaches**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 75**  **1 as an alternative. And these are listed on this**  

### 2 **slide. First we have considered a lamp and** 

### 3 **ballast system approach in which the lamp and** 

### 4 **ballast would be rated together in terms of** 

### 5 **lumens or lumen ballast system watt.** 

### 6 **DOE ruled this approach out because** 

### 7 **this would be burdensome for fixture** 

### 8 **manufacturers having to identify and track which** 

### 9 **lamp and ballast combinations were compliant as** 

### 10 **well as utilities being required to keep a large** 

### 11 **stock of products. There is also a concern that** 

### 12 **the original lamps sold in the fixture, when it** 

### 13 **fails, it could be easy to replace with a** 

### 14 **lower-efficiency lamp.** 

### 15 **The second approach that we** 

### 16 **considered was the one in which the ballast,** 

### 17 **lamp, and optics or enclosure would all be rated** 

### 18 **together in terms of a fixture-level metric,** 

### 19 **such as fitted target efficiency or target** 

### 20 **efficiency rating. However, we determined that** 

### 21 **these current metrics are inadequate in** 

### 22 **assessing all the fixtures included in this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 76**  **1 rulemaking.**  

### 2 **The last approach DOE considered is** 

### 3 **similar to California Title 20, which allowed** 

### 4 **for multiple compliance pathways utilizing a** 

### 5 **combination of design standards, ballast** 

### 6 **efficiency standards, and lamp wattage** 

### 7 **requirements. The issue with this approach is** 

### 8 **that it risks reducing energy savings while** 

### 9 **complicating enforcement. Also, requiring** 

### 10 **dimming and controls does not ensure energy** 

### 11 **savings. Nor are these technologies widely** 

### 12 **available in metal halide lamps.** 

### 13 **So, in the end, DOE rejected all of** 

### 14 **these three approaches. And we are proposing to** 

### 15 **continue setting standards based on ballast** 

### 16 **efficiency.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments, questions** 

### 18 **here?** 

### 19 **(No response.)** 

### 20 **MS. DeBUTTS: No? Okay. As** 

### 21 **mentioned earlier, DOE is proposing changes to** 

### 22 **the test procedure as well. Metal halide**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 77**  **1 ballasts can accept a variety of input wattages**  

### 2 **with different wattages chosen based on the** 

### 3 **application and the use of the fixture. Changes** 

### 4 **in efficiency on the order of several percent are** 

### 5 **also observed in individual ballasts based on** 

### 6 **the wattage in which they are tested.** 

### 7 **To ensure uniformity in testing, DOE** 

### 8 **proposes to specify the input voltage at which** 

### 9 **a ballast is to be tested based on its wattage.** 

### 10 **Based on the most common wattage/voltage** 

### 11 **combination, under 150 watts would be tested at** 

### 12 **150-volt. Greater than or equal than 150-watt** 

### 13 **would be tested at 277-volt. And if those** 

### 14 **voltages are not available, then the ballasts** 

### 15 **would be tested at the highest available** 

### 16 **voltage.** 

### 17 **DOE also found that the current test** 

### 18 **procedure did not apply to high-frequency** 

### 19 **electronic ballasts. Therefore, we are** 

### 20 **proposing to amend the test procedure to specify** 

### 21 **the instrumentation required to test** 

### 22 **high-frequency electronic ballasts so that they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 78**  **1 can be considered in this rulemaking.**  

### 2 **And, last, DOE proposed to rounding** 

### 3 **wattage to the nearest tenth of the watt, which** 

### 4 **was mentioned earlier, and calculating** 

### 5 **efficiency to the nearest tenth of a percent.** 

### 6 **So in this slide, we have two issue** 

### 7 **boxes. And we're seeking comments on the** 

### 8 **appropriateness of the proposed amendments to** 

### 9 **the test procedure as well as comments on** 

### 10 **appropriateness of DOE testing metal halide lamp** 

### 11 **fixtures as a single input voltage based on the** 

### 12 **lamp wattage operated with the ballast.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex Boesenberg?** 

### 14 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 15 **Boesenberg from NEMA. I'll speak to a couple of** 

### 16 **those. We have already mentioned our concerns** 

### 17 **about rounding. And I will restate our concerns** 

### 18 **about the potential impact of the change to the** 

### 19 **test procedure via the standard on currently** 

### 20 **regulated products, which are being reported.** 

### 21 **My members are collecting** 

### 22 **information. They have to dig through their**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 79**  **1 test data to do it because the certification**  

### 2 **database doesn't list decimal integers,** 

### 3 **numbers. So they're looking through to see how** 

### 4 **many round the wrong way, if you will, or are** 

### 5 **rounded up that wouldn't otherwise pass how many** 

### 6 **of the 89.7s are there and they're reported as** 

### 7 **90. So if the rule becomes set at 90.0, they** 

### 8 **won't pass, for an example. I don't have an** 

### 9 **answer on that yet to clarify for those present.** 

### 10 **We did dig into it.** 

### 11 **The DOE is permitted to change the** 

### 12 **test procedure, in this case the 2009 test** 

### 13 **procedure, via a standards action as long as the** 

### 14 **impact to products that are tested already and** 

### 15 **reported under the previous procedure are not** 

### 16 **adversely impacted and there is no actual number** 

### 17 **but there is an obligation of the Department to** 

### 18 **examine or consider if products will be** 

### 19 **delisted. So we are trying to help provide that** 

### 20 **information.** 

### 21 **I also want to speak to -- I'm trying** 

### 22 **to remember where I was. Oh, I want to clarify.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 80**  **1 I didn't want to interrupt Tom Harding earlier**  

### 2 **when he mentioned that ANSI is just getting to** 

### 3 **the high-frequency test procedures and** 

### 4 **compatibility standards. It's that they're** 

### 5 **finally making progress. They've been talking** 

### 6 **about it probably for ten years.** 

### 7 **In my previous job at NEMA, I was** 

### 8 **leading the task force on high-intensity,** 

### 9 **discharge lamp compatibility. They were some** 

### 10 **of the most difficult and loud meetings I've ever** 

### 11 **run because of that wide gamut of ballasts in** 

### 12 **lamps and the fact that not all ballasts will** 

### 13 **operate all lamps, even if you can indeed plug** 

### 14 **it into the fixture.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: That's why you left** 

### 16 **that prior position?** 

### 17 **(Laughter.)** 

### 18 **MR. BOESENBERG: It certainly** 

### 19 **wasn't one of the things making me want to stay.** 

### 20 **So I did want to clarify that it's not an interest** 

### 21 **we have been ignoring but that in an unregulated** 

### 22 **area where manufacturers are pursuing their own**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 81**  **1 product lines and their own solutions, when you**  

### 2 **come time to try to throw a rope around it and** 

### 3 **tighten it, it is extremely challenging.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think we have** 

### 5 **addressed eight yet. Maybe I missed that.** 

### 6 **Additional comments here? Louis,** 

### 7 **do you want to?** 

### 8 **MR. STARR: This is a question for** 

### 9 **I guess DOE. One thing, on the voltage/wattage** 

### 10 **that you're checking out, you're taking the** 

### 11 **highest one. Is there a thought of maybe** 

### 12 **looking at what the market share is and picking** 

### 13 **it based on a weighted average; in other words,** 

### 14 **if most of the fixtures in a given class are at** 

### 15 **277, using that?** 

### 16 **And then a second question is more** 

### 17 **for the manufacturer. It sounds like ANSI** 

### 18 **standard is one percent. Is that kind of what** 

### 19 **you are angling for on this or has there not** 

### 20 **really been a set-upon value of what the accuracy** 

### 21 **of the percentage of the ballast requirements** 

### 22 **should be?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 82**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?**  

### 2 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with** 

### 3 **Universal. Just the C82.6, the way it is** 

### 4 **written today, it is written around a one percent** 

### 5 **accuracy level, right? So that is what the** 

### 6 **whole industry is built around. And even when** 

### 7 **you look at the actual -- and some of the** 

### 8 **electrical engineers can speak because I'm not** 

### 9 **one. But even when you look at the test** 

### 10 **equipment itself, most of that isn't even** 

### 11 **calibrated down to that level when we get to the** 

### 12 **HID side of the world the way we look at it today.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex?** 

### 14 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 15 **Boesenberg from NEMA. I now remember the other** 

### 16 **point I wanted to make, and Chris helped me** 

### 17 **remember. When the accuracy of the test** 

### 18 **procedure and the accuracy of the test** 

### 19 **instruments is less than the requirement, what** 

### 20 **we run into is a future problem that we are -- the** 

### 21 **right thing to do is solve it now to where we** 

### 22 **don't get into enforcement difficulties later**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 83**  **1 and have to ask for increased tolerances during**  

### 2 **verification and enforcement actions where the** 

### 3 **DOE -- you know, we have standards in effect** 

### 4 **today where we argued during the process that it** 

### 5 **was the same sort of situation. And the way that** 

### 6 **it is being solved is that we are being granted** 

### 7 **greater tolerances during enforcement action** 

### 8 **because of the laws of physics. Okay. Great.** 

### 9 **We want to do this right the first time and not** 

### 10 **have a tighter tolerance applied to the** 

### 11 **efficiency level than can reliably be produced** 

### 12 **or measured.** 

### 13 **And I understand that raising it up** 

### 14 **.5 does improve the analysis numbers at the end** 

### 15 **of the day, how much energy we are going to save,** 

### 16 **but if we can't verify it, then it's not really** 

### 17 **true.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Several individuals** 

### 19 **wish to comment. Joe first and then Steve** 

### 20 **Rosenstock.** 

### 21 **MR. HOWLEY: Okay. So this is a** 

### 22 **comment on the single input voltage of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 84**  **1 ballast. Manufacturers will design ballasts**  

### 2 **optimally at a single-input voltage and** 

### 3 **typically the highest-volume voltage but then** 

### 4 **have multi-taps for other voltages that might be** 

### 5 **required but typically at a lower, slightly** 

### 6 **lower, efficiency when you go to the other** 

### 7 **voltages.** 

### 8 **Therefore, we believe the ballasts** 

### 9 **should be just tested at one voltage, but it** 

### 10 **should be up to the manufacturer to declare where** 

### 11 **that ballast was optimally designed at. And** 

### 12 **typically in the highest-volume voltage is where** 

### 13 **it's designed at. And it's optimized for that.** 

### 14 **So just saying it's always the** 

### 15 **highest voltage isn't true. It may be the** 

### 16 **highest voltage. It may be some other voltage.** 

### 17 **But it should be a single voltage, we believe,** 

### 18 **that is declared by the manufacturer. We prefer** 

### 19 **that kind of flexibility versus the highest** 

### 20 **voltage.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve?** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 85**  **1 EEI. I guess the other thing is for some of**  

### 2 **these efficiency levels for different ballasts,** 

### 3 **there is, you know, less than a percent** 

### 4 **difference in some of these levels, it seems** 

### 5 **like, based on some of the formulas.** 

### 6 **And, you know, I think this test** 

### 7 **procedure -- you know, I know hopefully it will** 

### 8 **be finalized, you know, at the same time or** 

### 9 **earlier before the final rule comes out, but it's** 

### 10 **obviously a huge issue. I mean, you are talking** 

### 11 **about these little increments. And if just the** 

### 12 **error of the equipment is bigger than those** 

### 13 **little increments, you might not have gained** 

### 14 **anything.** 

### 15 **And I think that this is -- you know,** 

### 16 **if you can't measure it, how does any customer** 

### 17 **know if it's 91.5 plus or minus one percent?** 

### 18 **That's just reality. Well, that makes all the** 

### 19 **difference in terms of the standard. I think it** 

### 20 **needs to be reasonable. And I think if because** 

### 21 **of the current state of the art with test** 

### 22 **equipment the best they can do under ANSI is plus**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 86**  **1 or minus one percent, that really needs to be**  

### 2 **taken into account in whatever efficiency** 

### 3 **standards you're setting.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **Tim Ballo?** 

### 6 **MR. BALLO: Two quick comments.** 

### 7 **One, you know, in certifying your product to DOE,** 

### 8 **you are always permitted to rate it** 

### 9 **conservatively. So if the rounding is a** 

### 10 **concern, you rate it with a little bit of a** 

### 11 **cushion.** 

### 12 **The other issue is there was a point** 

### 13 **made about an amendment to the test procedure** 

### 14 **that added another significant digit would** 

### 15 **potentially affect products that are just** 

### 16 **slightly below the standard but round up to meet** 

### 17 **the standard under the current integral** 

### 18 **percentage value that is used. While that is** 

### 19 **certainly something that DOE should consider, I** 

### 20 **don't believe it is correct that those products** 

### 21 **would have to be continued to be judged compliant** 

### 22 **provided that the test procedure changes would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 87**  **1 take effect at the time the new standard would**  

### 2 **also take effect. So if they both take effect** 

### 3 **in 2015, those products would not have to be** 

### 4 **grandfathered in under the statute.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 6 **Alex?** 

### 7 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 8 **NEMA. Perhaps DOE can clarify that point.** 

### 9 **It's my understanding in reading the statute** 

### 10 **that when you use the avenue of adjusting a test** 

### 11 **procedure via an energy conservation standard,** 

### 12 **since the test procedure is already in effect,** 

### 13 **the changes take effect immediately. If it is** 

### 14 **delayed until the three years or whenever the new** 

### 15 **standard kicks in, I would agree with Mr. Ballo's** 

### 16 **statement.** 

### 17 **MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from** 

### 18 **the General Counsel's Office. I think it might** 

### 19 **depend how we draft it, but typically we draft** 

### 20 **it such that a new test procedure requirement is** 

### 21 **optionally available for use by manufacturers** 

### 22 **before the compliance date but is only required**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 88**  **1 to be used at the compliance date.**  

### 2 **As you know, we typically amend our** 

### 3 **test procedures in a separate rulemaking. We do** 

### 4 **have authority to do it within a standards** 

### 5 **rulemaking. I think we could adjust for that** 

### 6 **based on the wording of the compliance date.** 

### 7 **And we have in the past allowed for optional use** 

### 8 **of the test procedure before the standards** 

### 9 **compliance.** 

### 10 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg** 

### 11 **with NEMA. Thank you.** 

### 12 **So also something I will note for us** 

### 13 **to do is we could simply request an FAQ after the** 

### 14 **final rule is published for the DOE to formally** 

### 15 **state somewhere in the FAQs that currently** 

### 16 **qualified products don't have to use it as well.** 

### 17 **MR. ALTMAN: We could certainly do** 

### 18 **that, but at the same time, we will take into** 

### 19 **consideration making that clear in the** 

### 20 **regulation itself.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please? Your name** 

### 22 **for the record?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 89**  **1 MR. DUFFY: Yes. This is Mark**  

### 2 **Duffy from GE. I would like to make a comment** 

### 3 **about the cushion that was suggested a few** 

### 4 **moments ago where you could overdesign or** 

### 5 **underrate. That cushion translates into real** 

### 6 **size material costs and all the things that we** 

### 7 **talked about in larger luminaires, things that** 

### 8 **can't be replaced when a natural disaster like** 

### 9 **Sandy takes out the majority of lighting section** 

### 10 **in a subdivision. They no longer have** 

### 11 **replacement options. That cushion adds to the** 

### 12 **size of the ballast that needs to be designed if** 

### 13 **it's going to be designed that way.** 

### 14 **So thank you very much.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I presume** 

### 16 **that NEMA or someone will document the** 

### 17 **limitations of the testing equipment, then, that** 

### 18 **sort of thing, for DOE.** 

### 19 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg.** 

### 20 **Yes. We have put that in our draft written** 

### 21 **comments and will expand on it.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 90**  **1 Louis?**  

### 2 **MR. STARR: Just one last question** 

### 3 **on the uncertainty in the testing. So you have** 

### 4 **one percent. And then we heard earlier that the** 

### 5 **coil sizes can change size and the lamination on** 

### 6 **the coil. So the magnetic coils can change. So** 

### 7 **that means there is uncertainty in the ballasts** 

### 8 **themselves. And so the testing, the actual** 

### 9 **testing, equipment is one percent.** 

### 10 **So how do you account when you go to** 

### 11 **rate a ballast and you know there is uncertainty** 

### 12 **in your manufacturing processes of your** 

### 13 **ballasts? How do you determine like this** 

### 14 **ballast is 91 percent efficient? If you know** 

### 15 **there is uncertainty in that ballast, how does** 

### 16 **that all work together?** 

### 17 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Today we do it via a** 

### 18 **test procedure. It's random sampling from** 

### 19 **production runs. So when we pull random samples** 

### 20 **out, we test those. And that's how we report** 

### 21 **efficiency. What we are speaking of in that, as** 

### 22 **you move any efficiency number and you regulate**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 91**  **1 it, any of these, we have to move up in**  

### 2 **efficiency. And now you have to think of that** 

### 3 **the majority of this market is not covered. Now** 

### 4 **we have got to equate for this 99 percent** 

### 5 **confidence level. That's even higher that you** 

### 6 **have to design for because it's basically based** 

### 7 **off how many standard deviations of your product** 

### 8 **can you fit, right? So you have to be 99 percent** 

### 9 **certain that within whatever you are testing,** 

### 10 **however many of the standard deviations, so the** 

### 11 **wider your spread is, so the more variation you** 

### 12 **get, that plus or minus three percent on the** 

### 13 **magnetic wire, the plus or minus 10 percent** 

### 14 **laminations, that means your standard deviation** 

### 15 **is going to be wider spread on a random sample,** 

### 16 **which means you're going to have to overdesign** 

### 17 **even more.** 

### 18 **If it was a product where the** 

### 19 **variations are very small part to part, material** 

### 20 **to material, manufacturing to manufacturing,** 

### 21 **your standard deviation is going to be a lot** 

### 22 **smaller, which means you don't have to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 92**  **1 overdesign as much to reach the 99 percent**  

### 2 **confidence level.** 

### 3 **So in this product, there is really** 

### 4 **not a lot to a magnetic ballast, right? You've** 

### 5 **got steel, which we all know is cheap, not** 

### 6 **really. And you've got magnet wire. So you** 

### 7 **have two major pieces of losses in the** 

### 8 **efficiency. And we know based off of just prior** 

### 9 **history, just the way this stuff is** 

### 10 **manufactured, you get a lot of variation.** 

### 11 **So we could produce a run today and** 

### 12 **test ten samples. We could produce a run six** 

### 13 **months from now that has completely different** 

### 14 **batches, run a random set of ten samples. And** 

### 15 **the efficiency will be different, right? And** 

### 16 **that's what we start talking about. And then we** 

### 17 **get into the whole enforcement and certification** 

### 18 **piece. You know, when you start adding in all** 

### 19 **of these factors, it is daunting.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis?** 

### 21 **MR. STARR: What is your confidence** 

### 22 **interval now? I mean, you must have something,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 93**  **1 right, when you produce a product or the design**  

### 2 **of the magnetic core in your lamination? You** 

### 3 **must have confidence interval that you're within** 

### 4 **that. It sounds like you're not using two** 

### 5 **standard deviations. What might you be using?** 

### 6 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with Universal** 

### 7 **again. This isn't required under the current** 

### 8 **ruling, EISA 2007. We have tested. And I have** 

### 9 **to go back and revisit how that is written. We** 

### 10 **are dealing with this today on the linear** 

### 11 **fluorescent side as well. So we're getting a** 

### 12 **lot more knowledge on that as we're preparing for** 

### 13 **our submission of data.** 

### 14 **So this is new learning for** 

### 15 **everybody because the new test procedure I think** 

### 16 **was released in -- no. The CCE test procedure.** 

### 17 **That was -- it's a new test procedure that** 

### 18 **requires a 99 percent confidence level. So as** 

### 19 **products roll into that, we have to learn how** 

### 20 **those products react with the 99 percent** 

### 21 **confidence level.** 

### 22 **MR. STARR: But currently your**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 94**  **1 products, you must have something or no? It**  

### 2 **sounds like with the new standard, you haven't** 

### 3 **done that before, but you are now. And it sounds** 

### 4 **like you might have a recommendation coming out** 

### 5 **of this.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex?** 

### 7 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 8 **Boesenberg with NEMA. I want to clarify that** 

### 9 **you are asking questions about how they mark and** 

### 10 **rate their products. So Chris' answer is just** 

### 11 **Universal's policy. Every company makes their** 

### 12 **own decisions as to how to approach that** 

### 13 **question. I won't call it a problem. It's this** 

### 14 **question. How are you going to apply the rules,** 

### 15 **I'll call it, of statistical variation and the** 

### 16 **regulations and the enforcement regulation.** 

### 17 **And, you know, most of the reporting** 

### 18 **is done for rated. And rated means a certain** 

### 19 **number of samples are taken and treated a certain** 

### 20 **way. And at the end of the day, you have a** 

### 21 **number. And often you have to either round it** 

### 22 **or just decide to make it higher or lower.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 95**  **1 Rating, there are some arbitrary decisions made.**  

### 2 **And so those are made by the individual companies** 

### 3 **in accordance with their own policies.** 

### 4 **Some companies rate very** 

### 5 **conservatively. Other companies rate very** 

### 6 **optimistically. And we tried to -- NEMA is** 

### 7 **working right now with other rulemakings because** 

### 8 **we had a meeting this week with the DOE with a** 

### 9 **big, long spreadsheet of questions about what is** 

### 10 **the right way to do this one, what is the right** 

### 11 **way to report this one because we want to all be** 

### 12 **reporting the same so the database doesn't show** 

### 13 **these wide fluctuations in efficiency of a** 

### 14 **product which shouldn't have any. And it's due** 

### 15 **to these decisions being made. It's often just** 

### 16 **interpretation.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on.** 

### 18 **Daniel, have you got the final thing here?** 

### 19 **MR. YOUNG: It's a question for** 

### 20 **manufacturers. Sorry to draw this out but just** 

### 21 **basically Chris mentioned a recent experience** 

### 22 **with fluorescent ballasts also needing to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 96**  **1 confirm to a similar derating scheme, I guess,**  

### 2 **using statistical analysis. And I was just** 

### 3 **wondering if you could compare the two just** 

### 4 **technologically in terms of the HID ballasts or** 

### 5 **the metal halide ballasts versus the fluorescent** 

### 6 **ballast test procedures and then the system for** 

### 7 **certification, if there are any major** 

### 8 **differences that make it more difficult for the** 

### 9 **metal halides versus the fluorescent surface,** 

### 10 **equally difficult for both or --** 

### 11 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris, Universal.** 

### 12 **At this point, we have not gone back and tried** 

### 13 **to retest everything to this new test procedure** 

### 14 **because we don't know what the final number is** 

### 15 **going to be. It would be a waste of resources** 

### 16 **and time. So today I can't tell you how that is** 

### 17 **going to work out. Then when the final rule is** 

### 18 **published, then we'll start pulling samples and** 

### 19 **redoing all of our testing.** 

### 20 **I mean, just to put it in** 

### 21 **perspective, it takes three to four months for** 

### 22 **us to go through just the linear test procedure**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 97**  **1 that we're working with today. So we will have**  

### 2 **to do the same thing with HID. It will take** 

### 3 **months to come up with the numbers.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on. Keep** 

### 5 **going.** 

### 6 **MS. DeBUTTS: Okay. And now with a** 

### 7 **presentation is Matthew Chester from Navigant** 

### 8 **Consulting.** 

### 9 **MR. CHESTER: Good morning. Once** 

### 10 **again, my name is Matt Chester, and I am with** 

### 11 **Navigant Consulting. I am going to talk next** 

### 12 **about the market and technology assessment and** 

### 13 **the screening analysis.** 

### 14 **So here we see an expansion of the** 

### 15 **NOPR stage. This is our current stage. And** 

### 16 **this shows the analyses that comprise it. We'll** 

### 17 **start with the market and technology assessment.** 

### 18 **Equipment classes are the first** 

### 19 **output of the market and technology assessment.** 

### 20 **And equipment class establishes the category of** 

### 21 **fixtures that will be subject to the same** 

### 22 **standard. In deciding how to group equipment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 98**  **1 classes, DOE considers the type of energy used,**  

### 2 **the capacity of the equipment, and other** 

### 3 **performance-related features that affect** 

### 4 **consumer utility.** 

### 5 **So the first equipment** 

### 6 **class-setting factor we'll be discussing is the** 

### 7 **input voltage. DOE is proposing to have one set** 

### 8 **of equipment classes for those ballasts tested** 

### 9 **at 480 volts according to the test procedure** 

### 10 **changes we just discussed and another set of** 

### 11 **equipment classes for ballast tested at all** 

### 12 **other voltages.** 

### 13 **When we analyzed the efficiency** 

### 14 **trends of commercially available ballasts, DOE** 

### 15 **found that dedicated 480-volt ballasts are less** 

### 16 **efficient than ballasts with comparable** 

### 17 **characteristics that are at quad-voltage or able** 

### 18 **to operate at voltages of 120, 208, 240, or 277.** 

### 19 **In terms of consumer utility,** 

### 20 **different applications of metal halide lamp** 

### 21 **fixtures demand specific voltages. And, for** 

### 22 **those reasons, DOE proposes separate equipment**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 99**  **1 classes based on the input voltage. And at this**  

### 2 **time, DOE seeks comment on the appropriateness** 

### 3 **of a separate equipment class for ballasts** 

### 4 **tested at 480 volts.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have an** 

### 6 **industry representative that wishes to comment?** 

### 7 **No comment here. Chacko?** 

### 8 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen, Philips** 

### 9 **Electronics. Something that you have to keep in** 

### 10 **mind, you know, we are trying to increase the** 

### 11 **efficiency more and more, but in some cases, when** 

### 12 **you try to do a multi-tab design for magnetic** 

### 13 **ballasts, it makes it more difficult because now** 

### 14 **you have to make sure that your tabs are exactly** 

### 15 **in the right location. And when you have** 

### 16 **variations in the tab voltages, it makes it more** 

### 17 **difficult to meet the requirements.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I'm hoping** 

### 19 **that someone can address what is in issue box 13.** 

### 20 **I thought that was useful. There is more** 

### 21 **content here, right, the appropriateness of** 

### 22 **separate equipment classes for ballasts tested**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 100**  **1 at 480 volts?**  

### 2 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 3 **Boesenberg, NEMA. I will note we will address** 

### 4 **it in our written comments.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 6 **MR. BOESENBERG: We just don't have** 

### 7 **anything to say specifically today.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you very much.** 

### 9 **That is helpful.** 

### 10 **Okay. We're moving on.** 

### 11 **MR. CHESTER: Okay. So the next** 

### 12 **thing DOE looked at was the potential of using** 

### 13 **application as a class-setting factor,** 

### 14 **specifically whether a fixture was designated** 

### 15 **for indoor or outdoor use.** 

### 16 **DOE found that the maximum** 

### 17 **achievable ballast efficiencies in outdoor and** 

### 18 **indoor fixtures are identical since they can use** 

### 19 **the same ballasts. However, in order to use a** 

### 20 **more efficient electronic ballast outdoors, it** 

### 21 **is necessary to fit the fixture with added** 

### 22 **protection since, as we heard earlier,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 101**  **1 electronic ballasts are not as robust as**  

### 2 **magnetic ballasts, they are susceptible to high** 

### 3 **temperatures and voltage surges and these are** 

### 4 **common in outdoor applications.** 

### 5 **However, DOE found that with the** 

### 6 **proper adjustments to the fixture, the same** 

### 7 **electronic ballasts can be used outdoors as** 

### 8 **indoors. Thermal protection can be added to** 

### 9 **guard from high temperatures. And external** 

### 10 **surge protection or internal transient** 

### 11 **protection can be used to protect the ballasts** 

### 12 **from voltage transients. However, these added** 

### 13 **features to outdoor fixtures do add incremental** 

### 14 **costs. And this affects the cost-efficiency** 

### 15 **relationship of fixtures for outdoor use.** 

### 16 **So since the applications provide** 

### 17 **separate utility and affect the cost-efficiency** 

### 18 **relationships, DOE proposes separate equipment** 

### 19 **classes for indoor and outdoor fixtures.** 

### 20 **So in order to effectively separate** 

### 21 **indoor and outdoor fixtures, DOE considers** 

### 22 **outdoor fixtures to be those that are rated for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 102**  **1 use in wet locations and have ten kilovolts of**  

### 2 **voltage transient protection while fixtures not** 

### 3 **meeting both of these criteria are indoor** 

### 4 **fixtures. DOE considers a fixture to be rated** 

### 5 **for use in wet locations if it meets the criteria** 

### 6 **for wet location rating in either the National** 

### 7 **Electrical Code 2011 or the Underwriters** 

### 8 **Laboratories 1598. For the 10 kilo voltage** 

### 9 **pulse withstand requirement, DOE refers to ANSI** 

### 10 **C136.2-2004.** 

### 11 **At this time, DOE seeks comment on** 

### 12 **the appropriateness of placing indoor and** 

### 13 **outdoor fixtures into separate equipment** 

### 14 **classes.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here?** 

### 16 **Alex?** 

### 17 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 18 **Boesenberg with NEMA. As I mentioned earlier,** 

### 19 **we are trying to or are considering alternative** 

### 20 **product class distinctions. So I'm not able as** 

### 21 **NEMA to comment on this at this time.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 103**  **1 Any additional comments here?**  

### 2 **(No response.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 4 **MR. CHESTER: Okay. So the last** 

### 5 **equipment --** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Excuse me.** 

### 7 **MR. CHESTER: Oh, sorry.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: We do have Alex.** 

### 9 **MR. HOFMANN: Just a quick kind of** 

### 10 **at-a-glance thought here. It makes sense** 

### 11 **to -- Alex, APPA. Sorry. It makes sense to us** 

### 12 **that indoor and outdoor fixtures would be in** 

### 13 **separate equipment classes because they do have** 

### 14 **separate uses.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 17 **MR. CHESTER: So the last equipment** 

### 18 **class-setting factor we will be discussing is** 

### 19 **the lamp wattage. As lamp wattage increases,** 

### 20 **DOE found that the ballast efficiency also** 

### 21 **generally increases. For example, in** 

### 22 **electronic ballasts, they have a certain amount**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 104**  **1 of fixed losses attributed to their components.**  

### 2 **And as the wattage increases, these fixed losses** 

### 3 **account for a smaller portion of the total losses** 

### 4 **unless the efficiency increases.** 

### 5 **With this knowledge, DOE** 

### 6 **empirically develops mathematical** 

### 7 **relationships between ballast efficiency and** 

### 8 **the rated lamp wattage. DOE is able to use these** 

### 9 **equations for the efficiency standards in this** 

### 10 **rulemaking.** 

### 11 **This approach differed from a binned** 

### 12 **approach where all of the lamps in a given** 

### 13 **equipment class would be subject to the same** 

### 14 **consonant efficiency standard. Such a binned** 

### 15 **approach would result in fixtures of different** 

### 16 **wattages being subject to the same efficiency** 

### 17 **requirement. Because of the previously** 

### 18 **explained relationship between increased lamp** 

### 19 **wattage and increased ballast efficiency, this** 

### 20 **would result in a standard being easier to meet** 

### 21 **for ballasts at the high-wattage end of these** 

### 22 **bins. Instead, DOE defines efficiency levels**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 105**  **1 using equations to ensure a fair treatment of all**  

### 2 **wattages within an equipment class.** 

### 3 **So, despite avoiding such a binned** 

### 4 **approach, DOE still found that there was reason** 

### 5 **to separate equipment classes by wattage range.** 

### 6 **In addition to the ballast efficiency increasing** 

### 7 **with wattage, the nature of this correlation** 

### 8 **also changes with wattage. Additionally, EISA** 

### 9 **resulted in covered wattages, shifting the more** 

### 10 **efficient technology while wattages outside of** 

### 11 **EISA did not.** 

### 12 **When looking at consumer utility,** 

### 13 **certain applications require more light than** 

### 14 **others. So wattage often varies by application** 

### 15 **and, thus, directly affects the utility.** 

### 16 **To reflect all of these trends, DOE** 

### 17 **proposes to separate equipment classes by** 

### 18 **wattage range. Instead of a constant** 

### 19 **requirement, however, DOE establishes different** 

### 20 **efficiency equations within each wattage range.** 

### 21 **The advantage to using equations within wattage** 

### 22 **ranges, instead of a single equation that spans**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 106**  **1 all wattages, is both to capture the previously**  

### 2 **mentioned change in the wattage-efficiency** 

### 3 **relationship and to ensure that the price** 

### 4 **analysis can reflect the unique cost-efficiency** 

### 5 **relationships of different wattage ranges.** 

### 6 **So based on separating equipment** 

### 7 **classes on input voltage, indoor versus outdoor** 

### 8 **designation and rated lamp wattage, DOE proposes** 

### 9 **these 20 equipment classes that you see on the** 

### 10 **table.** 

### 11 **As explained on the previous slide,** 

### 12 **the wattage ranges shown here reflect the** 

### 13 **different relationships between wattage,** 

### 14 **efficiency, and cost, as well as the effects that** 

### 15 **EISA has on the market.** 

### 16 **It is important to note that the** 

### 17 **150-watt fixtures previously exempted by EISA,** 

### 18 **so those that were rated for use in wet locations** 

### 19 **and in ambient temperatures above 50 degrees** 

### 20 **Celsius, are included in the 100 to 150-watt** 

### 21 **range, while 150-watt fixtures subject to EISA** 

### 22 **continue to be included in the 150 to 250-watt**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 107**  **1 range. This was done because the EISA exemption**  

### 2 **has led to a difference in the commercially** 

### 3 **available efficiencies for the ballasts that are** 

### 4 **exempted or not exempted. The exempted** 

### 5 **ballasts have a range of efficiencies similar to** 

### 6 **wattages below 150 while those not exempt have** 

### 7 **efficiencies more similar to ballasts greater** 

### 8 **than 150.** 

### 9 **DOE seeks comment on the** 

### 10 **appropriateness of the equipment classes** 

### 11 **proposed in this NOPR.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Doug?** 

### 13 **MR. YATES: Yes. Doug Yates, Musco** 

### 14 **Lighting. As I stated in the earlier comments,** 

### 15 **the only exception we take is grouping the large** 

### 16 **class of 500 to 2,000-watt. And as we get** 

### 17 **further into the presentation, I'll be able to** 

### 18 **go into more specifics. But I believe, as I've** 

### 19 **looked at it, all the analysis was based around** 

### 20 **1,000-watt. And we think there are significant** 

### 21 **differences in comparing the markets where the** 

### 22 **1,500-watt is used compared to the 1,000-watt.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 108**  **1 We don't even think those classes can be grouped**  

### 2 **together.** 

### 3 **Thank you.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 5 **Chris?** 

### 6 **MR. HOLSTEIN: This is Chris with** 

### 7 **Universal Lighting. I would just make two** 

### 8 **points before I start. I know we have some** 

### 9 **fellows here who are electrical engineers from** 

### 10 **other companies, Tom or Chuck. They could help** 

### 11 **me out if need be.** 

### 12 **But one thing I would like to point** 

### 13 **out is your own inconsistency in your data. You** 

### 14 **say that as lamp prices go up, efficiency goes** 

### 15 **up. But, yet, you have the highest efficiency** 

### 16 **on 150 watts. So that's kind of inconsistent** 

### 17 **with what you stated.** 

### 18 **The other piece on the 150 as being** 

### 19 **exempted still, I'm just going to read what my** 

### 20 **electrical engineers have given me. So it says** 

### 21 **that the -- and we actually have some charts that** 

### 22 **we are going to turn in. Sorry I don't have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 109**  **1 these to present. But it basically says the**  

### 2 **charts really show lamps current squared versus** 

### 3 **lamp wattage. The ballast losses are** 

### 4 **correlated with lamp current squared. Other** 

### 5 **factors also affect ballast losses, but there is** 

### 6 **a strong correlation between the I squared R** 

### 7 **losses.** 

### 8 **Now, the charts show that it's clear** 

### 9 **that 150-watt ballast losses follow the trend** 

### 10 **and has significantly higher losses than ballast** 

### 11 **at the medium wattage range, 175 to 500. This** 

### 12 **explains the fact that since 2007, the industry** 

### 13 **has not been able to come up with 150-watt metal** 

### 14 **halide fixture with a magnetic ballast that is** 

### 15 **88 percent efficient.** 

### 16 **And this is a ULT comment. ULT** 

### 17 **believes that the 150 watts should be treated as** 

### 18 **a separate wattage bin and continue with** 

### 19 **existing exemption.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 21 **Does anybody wish to comment?** 

### 22 **Chacko?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 110**  **1 MR. OOMMEN: Yes. I have one**  

### 2 **comment. They were talking about the** 

### 3 **efficiency as the lamp wattage exists throughout** 

### 4 **the life of the lamp. But basically all the** 

### 5 **measurements for us, we are taking a nominal** 

### 6 **voltage and right out of the, you know, like** 

### 7 **100-hour lamps, actually. So yes, efficiency** 

### 8 **will grow as the lamp basis, but that is not how** 

### 9 **it is measured for efficiency numbers.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. Yes,** 

### 11 **Joanna?** 

### 12 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. We find** 

### 13 **it a little bit odd that certain 150-watt** 

### 14 **fixtures would be in one equipment class and** 

### 15 **others would be in another. I think we would** 

### 16 **encourage DOE to consider putting all 150-watt** 

### 17 **fixtures in the 100 to 150-watt wattage bin.** 

### 18 **And that would seem to be consistent with how the** 

### 19 **bins are kind of laid out in general.** 

### 20 **MR. CHESTER: All right. I can** 

### 21 **expand a little bit on why those are separated.** 

### 22 **So the 150-watt fixtures that were subject to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 111**  **1 EISA obviously have the existing standard from**  

### 2 **the federal standards that they have to meet.** 

### 3 **So DOE can't consider a standard that is below** 

### 4 **that 88 percent, but for the 150-watt fixtures** 

### 5 **that were wet-rated and higher ambient** 

### 6 **temperatures, we found that there were** 

### 7 **efficiencies, almost representative** 

### 8 **efficiencies, to consider below that EISA** 

### 9 **standard just because they weren't previously** 

### 10 **regulated. So in this way, we are able to kind** 

### 11 **of consider the existing standards for them** 

### 12 **separately.** 

### 13 **MS. MAUER: I guess regarding your** 

### 14 **first point, -- and maybe I need to go look** 

### 15 **back -- the standard that is proposed for the 100** 

### 16 **to 150-watt class for 150-watt fixtures, it** 

### 17 **would be at least 88 percent. Is that right?** 

### 18 **MR. CHESTER: Right, yes. The one** 

### 19 **that we ended up proposing is above there, but** 

### 20 **the EL1 and EL2 are below that point.** 

### 21 **MS. MAUER: Out of 150 watts?** 

### 22 **MR. CHESTER: For that, for the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 112**  **1 exempt 150-watt fixtures.**  

### 2 **MS. MAUER: Just to clarify, right,** 

### 3 **because the standard varies as a function of** 

### 4 **wattage, the importance is what the standard** 

### 5 **level is at 150 watts, right, if we're talking** 

### 6 **about how it compares to the current standard?** 

### 7 **MR. CHESTER: Right.** 

### 8 **MS. MAUER: And you're saying** 

### 9 **there are levels that at 150 watts, the level** 

### 10 **analyzed is below 88 percent?** 

### 11 **MR. CHESTER: For the ones that** 

### 12 **aren't included in EISA.** 

### 13 **MS. MAUER: Right. Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Tom Eckman?** 

### 15 **MR. ECKMAN: Tom Eckman, Northwest** 

### 16 **Power Council. I'm still not clear why that** 

### 17 **needs to be a separate class. If the original** 

### 18 **intent was to avoid the backsliding provisions,** 

### 19 **then they were exempt to begin with. So there's** 

### 20 **no potential for backsliding. So including** 

### 21 **them in another class, which is the exterior and** 

### 22 **high-temperature class, doesn't throw them in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 113**  **1 with the ones that were already covered. So why**  

### 2 **was there a necessity to split them out?** 

### 3 **Because they are already in another class. It** 

### 4 **wasn't regulated.** 

### 5 **MR. CHESTER: This is keeping them** 

### 6 **in the separate class.** 

### 7 **MR. ECKMAN: They were a separate** 

### 8 **class. They are exempt.** 

### 9 **MR. CHESTER: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. ECKMAN: So bringing them in,** 

### 11 **it's not clear why they would have to fall in 2** 

### 12 **different classes given they were 150.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Matthew?** 

### 14 **MR. WALKER: This is Matthew Walker** 

### 15 **from Navigant. We can certainly take your** 

### 16 **feedback into account and consider combining.** 

### 17 **I can try to say it in another way.** 

### 18 **Some 150-watt fixtures were covered by EISA,** 

### 19 **ones that did not meet the exemption criteria.** 

### 20 **That category may have been rather small in terms** 

### 21 **of shipments, but the regulation in this** 

### 22 **proposal was designed to treat the fixtures that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 114**  **1 were previously not exempted by EISA a certain**  

### 2 **way and then fixtures that were exempted by EISA** 

### 3 **a different way.** 

### 4 **MR. ECKMAN: Since you classified** 

### 5 **them separately in different classes anyway, I** 

### 6 **don't see that the backsliding provision would** 

### 7 **be of concern.** 

### 8 **MR. WALKER: Okay. We'll take that** 

### 9 **into account. Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that** 

### 11 **clarification.** 

### 12 **Alex?** 

### 13 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 14 **Boesenberg from NEMA. I want to raise a** 

### 15 **separate point to expand on Mr. Yates' comments.** 

### 16 **The current NEMA position I'll call it since my** 

### 17 **comments aren't final is that I have at this time** 

### 18 **agreement among my membership that for wattages** 

### 19 **1,000 watts and above, we believe they should not** 

### 20 **be covered by the rule because they in our** 

### 21 **observation are specialty applications, which,** 

### 22 **more often than not, exhibit very low operating**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 115**  **1 hours and so not a lot of efficiency gains, well,**  

### 2 **not a lot of energy saved. We might drastically** 

### 3 **or attempt to drastically increase the** 

### 4 **efficiency, but if they are only running an hour** 

### 5 **or two a day a couple of days a week, there is** 

### 6 **really not much savings to justify the time and** 

### 7 **expense of addressing that redesign.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe?** 

### 9 **MR. HOWLEY: Just to add to what** 

### 10 **Alex is saying. Joe Howley with GE. The rule** 

### 11 **is supposed to cover lamps used in general** 

### 12 **lighting applications. The highest wattage** 

### 13 **that a lamp would be used in a general lighting** 

### 14 **application as defined by industry would be** 

### 15 **1,000 watts. We would not define any lamp over** 

### 16 **1,000 watts to be used in a general lighting** 

### 17 **application. We think it's a misapplication in** 

### 18 **terms of trying to regulate products over 1,000** 

### 19 **watts.** 

### 20 **And attempting to say they are** 

### 21 **general lighting, we would strongly disagree** 

### 22 **with saying anything over 1,000 watts is used in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 116**  **1 a general lighting application. These are all**  

### 2 **specialty lighting, sports lighting types of** 

### 3 **applications. General lighting is a lamp that** 

### 4 **is used every night, used, you know, some amount** 

### 5 **of hours for general lighting purposes. That is** 

### 6 **not sports lighting.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 8 **Louis?** 

### 9 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.** 

### 10 **I had a question for something that Chris with** 

### 11 **Universal Lighting had talked about earlier.** 

### 12 **You were talking about the difference between** 

### 13 **150 and 175-watt fixtures and that the** 

### 14 **efficiency would be less in the 150. Is that** 

### 15 **because the power consumed was I squared R, which** 

### 16 **is the current times the resistance? And so I** 

### 17 **am assuming the 150, there is a higher current** 

### 18 **because it a lower voltage. Is that why there** 

### 19 **is more, the efficiency is different than the** 

### 20 **efficiency required?** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko?** 

### 22 **MR. OOMMEN: Yes. I can answer**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 117**  **1 that question. Chacko from Philips. Like I**  

### 2 **said before, the 175, the lamp voltage is 130** 

### 3 **volts. And the lamp current is like about 1.2** 

### 4 **amps. And for the 150, the lamp current is 1.8** 

### 5 **amps. And the lamp voltage is fully 85 volts.** 

### 6 **So that's quite a bit of I squared loss. Even** 

### 7 **if you make the same size of ballast, the 150 will** 

### 8 **be much higher losses.** 

### 9 **MR. STARR: Why is the current draw** 

### 10 **different between those two? Is that a design** 

### 11 **or is that --** 

### 12 **MR. OOMMEN: Yes. It's a lamp** 

### 13 **design.** 

### 14 **MR. STARR: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. OOMMEN: The lamp is designed** 

### 16 **for low voltage.** 

### 17 **MR. STARR: So a smaller ballast** 

### 18 **gets you more current? Is that what is going on** 

### 19 **or --** 

### 20 **MR. OOMMEN: Well, I mean, it's not** 

### 21 **a smaller ballast. Even if you make the same** 

### 22 **size of ballast, if you make a 175 ballast one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 118**  **1 size and the 150-watt the same size, you are**  

### 2 **going to have higher losses because of the I** 

### 3 **square ballast losses because you need more** 

### 4 **impedance to control the lamp current.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Doug?** 

### 6 **MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco** 

### 7 **Lighting. Just to comment further on the NEMA** 

### 8 **position and when the gentleman from GE spoke,** 

### 9 **we agree with that as well from Musco's** 

### 10 **perspective. I spoke earlier to the 1,500 watts** 

### 11 **in sports lighting, but we also agree that** 

### 12 **anything above 1,000-watt is a specialty** 

### 13 **application. It is not general lighting.** 

### 14 **Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. And the** 

### 16 **Department of Energy will look forward to** 

### 17 **receiving NEMA's written comments, in which they** 

### 18 **will fully elucidate where they are.** 

### 19 **Have we covered this one? We are** 

### 20 **moving on, I think. Yes? Okay.** 

### 21 **MR. CHESTER: Okay. So next, for** 

### 22 **the screening analysis, DOE looks at the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 119**  **1 technology options on the basis of four**  

### 2 **criteria: technological feasibility;** 

### 3 **practicability to manufacture, install, and** 

### 4 **service; adverse impacts on product utility or** 

### 5 **availability to customers; and adverse impacts** 

### 6 **to health and safety. The only technology** 

### 7 **option that DOE screened out was creating the** 

### 8 **core inductor of the ballast from laminated** 

### 9 **sheets of amorphous steel.** 

### 10 **Amorphous steel was screened out** 

### 11 **because it adds a high level of complexity,** 

### 12 **requires additional specialized machinery and** 

### 13 **equipment, and increases the size and weight of** 

### 14 **the ballasts beyond the existing ballast** 

### 15 **footprint. These factors made amorphous steel** 

### 16 **failed the practicability to manufacture,** 

### 17 **install, and service criterion. The remaining** 

### 18 **technology options were not screened out and are** 

### 19 **shown as design options on the table in this** 

### 20 **slide. As design options, DOE considers these** 

### 21 **in the NOPR analysis to be the viable means of** 

### 22 **improving ballast efficiency.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 120**  **1 DOE seeks comment on the**  

### 2 **appropriateness of the design options selected** 

### 3 **by the screening analysis of this NOPR.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko?** 

### 5 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from** 

### 6 **Philips. I can provide you some overview about** 

### 7 **the use of hybrid materials for releasing the** 

### 8 **losses.** 

### 9 **Something to consider is, just to** 

### 10 **give you an example, with the current technology** 

### 11 **that we have, even if you were to use M6, that's** 

### 12 **the best grade material in the industry right now** 

### 13 **for steel, magnetic steel, practical way of** 

### 14 **doing it. And what happens is if the losses are,** 

### 15 **say, a 0.6 watts per pound, but once you process** 

### 16 **that into a fully assembled unit, the losses on** 

### 17 **that same steel go up to more than 100 percent.** 

### 18 **So the energy saved is completely lost during the** 

### 19 **manufacturing process. So that option is not at** 

### 20 **all viable for our industry.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: I somehow lost** 

### 22 **the -- you lost me there. Will you restate what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 121**  **1 you just said?**  

### 2 **MR. OOMMEN: Okay. Say, for** 

### 3 **instance, the losses --** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: I was looking at** 

### 5 **losses. Then others would as well. Go ahead.** 

### 6 **MR. OOMMEN: Yes. What happens is** 

### 7 **when you weld high-grade, high-silicon steel,** 

### 8 **when you distract the magnetic properties, even** 

### 9 **externally, the losses of that whole structure** 

### 10 **go up.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. OOMMEN: Yes.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay. I got** 

### 14 **it.** 

### 15 **Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 17 **Just a quick question looking at this table.** 

### 18 **I'm just kind of curious how an electronic** 

### 19 **ballast is going to improve the efficiency of a** 

### 20 **magnetic ballast.** 

### 21 **MR. CHESTER: That design option is** 

### 22 **essentially saying you are going to be replacing**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 122**  **1 the magnetic ballast with an electronic one,**  

### 2 **which we found to have higher efficiency.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: But, again, I** 

### 4 **know what you're saying, but, you know, really,** 

### 5 **that is not an option to improving the efficiency** 

### 6 **of a magnetic ballast.** 

### 7 **MR. CHESTER: Okay. Well, we'll** 

### 8 **certainly take --** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: That's not a design** 

### 10 **sub-element.** 

### 11 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Exactly. Thank** 

### 12 **you.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. CHESTER: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: I think we've got** 

### 16 **that. Final comments on this screening** 

### 17 **analysis slide?** 

### 18 **(No response.)** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: I am going to suggest** 

### 20 **we take a break. It's now 5 minutes until 11:00.** 

### 21 **How many of you are not familiar with this** 

### 22 **building?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 123**  **1 (Whereupon, there was a show of**  

### 2 **hands.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Just a few. It's** 

### 4 **pretty simple. You must wear this badge. And** 

### 5 **we're going to break for 15 minutes, which means** 

### 6 **we'll resume at 10 minutes after 11:00.** 

### 7 **We're making really good progress.** 

### 8 **However, we're slated to go until at least, say,** 

### 9 **3:00 o'clock today. So we're likely when we** 

### 10 **return from break to work until, say, 12:30 or** 

### 11 **so before we break for lunch. So if you need a** 

### 12 **piece of fruit or a doughnut or something, fine,** 

### 13 **but the coffee shop is on the ground floor** 

### 14 **directly beneath us and across the hall. Go** 

### 15 **quickly because sometimes it takes them a while** 

### 16 **to service everyone. And we'll resume at 10** 

### 17 **minutes after 11:00. Good start on the day.** 

### 18 **See you back here. Restrooms on both ends of the** 

### 19 **hall.** 

### 20 **(Whereupon, the foregoing matter** 

### 21 **went off the record at 10:54 a.m. and went back** 

### 22 **on the record at 11:11 a.m.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 124**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Let's resume. We**  

### 2 **made really good progress this morning and I** 

### 3 **really appreciate the quality and** 

### 4 **straightforwardness of the comments.** 

### 5 **Let's keep on with that and we're** 

### 6 **going to pick up where we left off, which I** 

### 7 **believe is Slide 27. And we're going to hear** 

### 8 **from Matthew Walker.** 

### 9 **MR. WALKER: All right. So, good** 

### 10 **morning, everyone. My name is Matthew Walker.** 

### 11 **I`m with Navigant.** 

### 12 **I'll be presenting the engineering** 

### 13 **analysis which establishes efficiency levels** 

### 14 **and overall system energy use at those levels,** 

### 15 **as well as determining the equipment prices for** 

### 16 **each efficiency level.** 

### 17 **This work sets the framework then** 

### 18 **for analyzing the impacts on customers,** 

### 19 **manufacturers and the nation as a whole and later** 

### 20 **downstream analyses that you can see in this flow** 

### 21 **chart.** 

### 22 **Okay. So, this slide gives an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 125**  **1 overview of the methodology. DOE begins by**  

### 2 **choosing equipment classes to be directly** 

### 3 **analyzed, which it calls "representative** 

### 4 **equipment classes."** 

### 5 **Next, DOE defines characteristics** 

### 6 **of baseline ballasts in each equipment class.** 

### 7 **This is followed by identifying more efficacious** 

### 8 **substitutes for each equipment class, and then** 

### 9 **developing efficiency levels that span from** 

### 10 **baseline to maximum technologically feasible.** 

### 11 **After developing the efficiency** 

### 12 **levels, DOE generates the manufacturer** 

### 13 **production cost, or MPC, for ballasts and** 

### 14 **fixtures which it then marks up to a manufacturer** 

### 15 **selling price using a markup multiplier.** 

### 16 **And finally, DOE scales the results to the** 

### 17 **equipment classes that were not analyzed** 

### 18 **directly.** 

### 19 **So, as Matt described a few minutes** 

### 20 **ago, DOE is considering standards for 20** 

### 21 **equipment classes. And from this list, DOE** 

### 22 **focuses the analytical efforts on the same**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 126**  **1 classes on the table on this slide.**  

### 2 **You can see DOE did not analyze the** 

### 3 **equipment classes tested at 480 volts directly** 

### 4 **due to their low shipment volumes. Instead** 

### 5 **we're looking at the equipment classes tested at** 

### 6 **the 120 and 277 levels. So, you can see those are** 

### 7 **the remaining 10 equipment classes that cover** 

### 8 **the full range of wattages, as well as both** 

### 9 **indoor and outdoor designations.** 

### 10 **So, next, DOE selects baseline** 

### 11 **units. Each representative equipment class is** 

### 12 **assigned a representative wattage. Typically,** 

### 13 **the most common wattages within each equipment** 

### 14 **class. Then to each of these representative** 

### 15 **wattages, DOE selects a baseline model which** 

### 16 **represents them as common, least efficient** 

### 17 **ballasts.** 

### 18 **The baseline model will just meet** 

### 19 **energy conservation standards when applicable.** 

### 20 **So, for example, the baseline unit at 250 watts** 

### 21 **would be 88 percent to just meet the EISA 2007** 

### 22 **requirements. The purpose of the baseline is to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 127**  **1 serve as a reference point for analyzing the**  

### 2 **impacts of transitions to more efficient** 

### 3 **standard levels in the life-cycle cost analysis.** 

### 4 **So, generally, only one baseline is** 

### 5 **selected. But when a significant portion of the** 

### 6 **market has already adapted a more efficient** 

### 7 **fixture or ballast, DOE analyzes two baselines** 

### 8 **for a more representative set of LCC results.** 

### 9 **We'll see an example of that on the next slide.** 

### 10 **So, here we see that for each of the** 

### 11 **wattage bins, the representative wattages of 70,** 

### 12 **150, 250, 400 and 1,000 watts were selected.** 

### 13 **Each of these representative** 

### 14 **wattages has low-grade magnetic pulse-start** 

### 15 **ballasts selected as the baseline with the** 

### 16 **exception of the thousand-watt grouping which** 

### 17 **uses a probe-start magnetic ballast as a** 

### 18 **baseline.** 

### 19 **Though, at 70 watts you can see that** 

### 20 **DOE has also selected an electronic pulse-start** 

### 21 **ballast as a baseline based on a significant** 

### 22 **portion of the market having already adopted the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 128**  **1 electronic system.**  

### 2 **And lastly, it's important to note** 

### 3 **that each of these baseline ballasts represents** 

### 4 **both the indoor and outdoor representative** 

### 5 **equipment classes, because indoor and outdoor** 

### 6 **designation the NOPR analysis has determined it** 

### 7 **only affects equipment price and not ballast** 

### 8 **efficiency, the same baseline efficiencies that** 

### 9 **are used for both the indoor and outdoor classes.** 

### 10 **Here in Issue 22, DOE is seeking** 

### 11 **comment on the addition of the electronic** 

### 12 **70-watt baseline ballast.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: I'm Steve** 

### 15 **Rosenstock, Edison Electric Institute. For** 

### 16 **those 70-watt fixtures, what percentage of the** 

### 17 **marketplace based on your surveys were** 

### 18 **electronic pulse-starts?** 

### 19 **MR. WALKER: When you look at the** 

### 20 **indoor grouping, the assessment was that it was** 

### 21 **greater than 25 percent.** 

### 22 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 129**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Doug.**  

### 2 **MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco** 

### 3 **Lighting.** 

### 4 **I know that it's specific to Issue** 

### 5 **22, but if there's a question we have to what's** 

### 6 **presented, can we ask it now?** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please.** 

### 8 **MR. YATES: I guess going back to your** 

### 9 **comment that you left out 480-volt because of low** 

### 10 **shipment volume, I guess that would further, I** 

### 11 **think, support our position that at least** 

### 12 **1500-watt should not be considered in this in** 

### 13 **that class. Because based upon our experience at** 

### 14 **Musco Lighting, a large majority greater than 50** 

### 15 **percent would be 480 volt for 1500 watts. So, to** 

### 16 **leave that out, I guess, again, just to my** 

### 17 **opinion supports that it just doesn't belong** 

### 18 **1500 watt.** 

### 19 **MR. WALKER: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. YATES: And then the second** 

### 21 **question I would have is as I understand the** 

### 22 **standard, it's suggesting that we move towards**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 130**  **1 pulse-start in all the classes, including the**  

### 2 **500 to 2,000 watt?** 

### 3 **I guess I'm trying to understand why** 

### 4 **then was the probe-start used as the baseline.** 

### 5 **MR. WALKER: Yes, we'll get into that** 

### 6 **development in a couple of slides.** 

### 7 **MR. YATES: All right. Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. WALKER: But the baseline is** 

### 9 **meant to represent the product that's currently** 

### 10 **on the market.** 

### 11 **MR. YATES: Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko.** 

### 13 **MR. OOMMEN: Yes, Chacko from** 

### 14 **Philips. I want to make a couple of comments.** 

### 15 **For right now, there are no electronic ballasts** 

### 16 **of 480 for any power level, okay. And the second** 

### 17 **comment is as far as probe and pulse, there are** 

### 18 **no different efficiency differences for either** 

### 19 **probe or pulse when you reach about a thousand** 

### 20 **in a bulb.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 22 **Did you ask the comment on Chacko's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 131**  **1 question?**  

### 2 **MR. WALKER: We did.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good. Okay.** 

### 4 **Comments on Issue 22?** 

### 5 **Okay, we're moving on.** 

### 6 **MR. WALKER: Okay. So, next, DOE** 

### 7 **then begins to select fixtures with more** 

### 8 **efficient ballasts as replacements for the** 

### 9 **baseline model.** 

### 10 **These more efficient substitutes** 

### 11 **are selected by analyzing independent test data** 

### 12 **of commercially available ballasts, and by** 

### 13 **estimating the efficiency increase to be gained** 

### 14 **through the use of the design options.** 

### 15 **So, looking at the efficiency** 

### 16 **levels, like I was saying, DOE uses the design** 

### 17 **options and max tech efficiencies for each** 

### 18 **equipment class to develop efficiency levels or** 

### 19 **ELs. These ELs are based on catalog data,** 

### 20 **independent test data and manufacture input.** 

### 21 **After plotting ballast efficiency** 

### 22 **versus rated lamp wattage for a variety of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 132**  **1 products, DOE performed a regression analysis to**  

### 2 **define relationships between rated lamp wattage** 

### 3 **and ballast efficiency.** 

### 4 **Certain wattage categories and** 

### 5 **ballast types were best represented - or best** 

### 6 **modeled with different equation types. And** 

### 7 **we'll see those a little bit on the next slide.** 

### 8 **Okay. So, the three equation types** 

### 9 **included in the NOPR include power-law equations** 

### 10 **shown on top with the green, increasing linear** 

### 11 **equations in the middle with yellow, and a** 

### 12 **constant flat equation at the bottom in blue.** 

### 13 **And so, all three of these forms are found in the** 

### 14 **ELs that we'll see in the next slide.** 

### 15 **So, as I just mentioned before, the** 

### 16 **efficiency levels, the efficiency level** 

### 17 **equations are identical for indoor and outdoor** 

### 18 **fixtures because of the determination that the** 

### 19 **efficiency is the same.** 

### 20 **So, this graph shows EL1 through EL4** 

### 21 **for four of the wattage ranges. There's 50 to** 

### 22 **100, 100 to 150, 150 to 250, and 250 to 500-watt**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 133**  **1 groupings.**  

### 2 **For the two lowest wattage ranges,** 

### 3 **DOE used its own test data as well as efficiency** 

### 4 **trends and catalog data to generate separate** 

### 5 **power-law best fits for the magnetic ballasts in** 

### 6 **EL1 and EL2, and the electronic ballasts in EL3** 

### 7 **and EL4.** 

### 8 **Then moving to higher wattages** 

### 9 **because EISA 2007 covered the wattage range from** 

### 10 **150 to 500, as you can see on this slide with the** 

### 11 **dotted line, although it looks a little bit more** 

### 12 **solid on the screen here, DOE can only evaluate** 

### 13 **efficiencies equal to or above that existing** 

### 14 **standard.** 

### 15 **So, based on its analysis, DOE** 

### 16 **determined that 88 percent was at or above max** 

### 17 **tech for the magnetic 150 watt to 200-watt** 

### 18 **ballasts.** 

### 19 **Therefore, the EL1 and EL2 in that** 

### 20 **range was set at 88 percent. You can see that** 

### 21 **on the diagram.** 

### 22 **Then for EL3 and EL4 which are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 134**  **1 generally represented by electronic ballasts,**  

### 2 **the power-law function from the 50 to 150-watt** 

### 3 **range was simply extended. It's the same** 

### 4 **relationship actually used from 50 all the way** 

### 5 **to 500 watts.** 

### 6 **So, then finally with the 250 to** 

### 7 **500-watt range, DOE found that the magnetic** 

### 8 **representative units at EL1 and EL2 have the same** 

### 9 **efficiency. So, DOE created a flat efficiency** 

### 10 **relationship for the magnetic ballast and that** 

### 11 **wattage number is represented by EL1 and EL2.** 

### 12 **And, like I said, EL3 and 4 again** 

### 13 **follow that same power-law function fit** 

### 14 **representing electronic ballasts.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 16 **MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with** 

### 17 **NEEA.** 

### 18 **The square in the chart there where** 

### 19 **you have the 155 and it looks like it's constant** 

### 20 **out to 200, was that - the intent of that to kind** 

### 21 **of get it seemed like maybe people were moving** 

### 22 **from the 175 watt to the 150 exemption, was that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 135**  **1 to deal with that, or is there - maybe you can**  

### 2 **explain why that particular -** 

### 3 **MR. WALKER: The spot is at 88** 

### 4 **percent.** 

### 5 **MR. STARR: Yes.** 

### 6 **MR. WALKER: I can say that real** 

### 7 **briefly it's not as much about the transition** 

### 8 **between wattages, but rather the maximum** 

### 9 **technologically feasible level that magnetic** 

### 10 **ballasts can reach which is even - 88 percent is** 

### 11 **even beyond max tech at 150, but EISA 2007 had** 

### 12 **already established an 88 percent level.** 

### 13 **It's really just the existing** 

### 14 **standard that we're dealing with right there.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe.** 

### 16 **MR. HOWLEY: At EISA law, the - well,** 

### 17 **the outcome of that was to push everyone from the** 

### 18 **175 watt to the 150-watt exemption, which saved,** 

### 19 **you know, 25 watts per fixture across all those** 

### 20 **fixtures.** 

### 21 **So, it saved energy, but not in the** 

### 22 **way you might expect. It wasn't done just by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 136**  **1 meeting an efficiency standard. It was by**  

### 2 **making it very difficult to meet it at 175 and** 

### 3 **possible at 150 and then granting an exemption** 

### 4 **at 150.** 

### 5 **So, that's why you have this weird** 

### 6 **kind of cutout here and why this analysis is, you** 

### 7 **know, it doesn't look - when you try to bring the** 

### 8 **150 in now based on the logic from 2007, it** 

### 9 **doesn't make sense. That's why it's so far high** 

### 10 **out of whack and, like you said, above max tech** 

### 11 **and why we - we view that as a mistake the way** 

### 12 **that it's analyzed right now.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Joe. Were** 

### 14 **you done presenting this graph?** 

### 15 **MR. WALKER: I'm finished with this** 

### 16 **slide.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional questions** 

### 18 **or comments on this before we move on? Yes,** 

### 19 **Chris.** 

### 20 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Two things. Chris** 

### 21 **with Universal.** 

### 22 **Just as a for whoever is the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 137**  **1 webmaster, I got a text from an associate who is**  

### 2 **on the webcast and said they tried to raise their** 

### 3 **hand to make a comment and it didn't go through,** 

### 4 **just as a point not to address now, but just to** 

### 5 **watch it.** 

### 6 **It was Ed Klonowski was his name, but** 

### 7 **back to the points -** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that.** 

### 9 **MR. HOLSTEIN: No problem. Just in** 

### 10 **comment to the - what we see here on this 50 to** 

### 11 **500-watt I'm just going to kind of read what I** 

### 12 **have written. And I'll provide more detail in** 

### 13 **my written comments.** 

### 14 **I don't want to go through all of it** 

### 15 **today, but I'll just say the proposed efficiency** 

### 16 **levels are too high. May not be practically** 

### 17 **achievable for magnetic ballasts in the lower** 

### 18 **wattage ranges.** 

### 19 **For example, achieving 91 percent** 

### 20 **efficiency for 250-watt ballasts to require** 

### 21 **alongside with the usage of the highest possible** 

### 22 **grade materials, substantial changes in the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 138**  **1 ballast dimensions.**  

### 2 **And then I'm going to provide some** 

### 3 **recommendations as well, but I won't go through** 

### 4 **those in this meeting.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you. I** 

### 6 **thought I saw someone else. Steve Rosenstock?** 

### 7 **No, you've got it? Okay.** 

### 8 **Yes, please, your name for the** 

### 9 **record.** 

### 10 **MR. GREEN: Yes, John Green from** 

### 11 **Eaton Cooper Lighting.** 

### 12 **Since this is a fixture rulemaking,** 

### 13 **can I ask what fixtures were used to evaluate the** 

### 14 **baseline in the higher efficiency ballasts for** 

### 15 **this comparison?** 

### 16 **MR. WALKER: Sure. So, yes, you** 

### 17 **mentioned this is a fixture rulemaking.** 

### 18 **However, the portion of the fixture being** 

### 19 **regulated is the ballast. So, I'm just trying** 

### 20 **to think of the best way to talk about this.** 

### 21 **We can maybe talk about the 250-watt** 

### 22 **as an example. So, a 250-watt magnetic ballast**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 139**  **1 that was at 88 percent was tested. So, we have**  

### 2 **a commercially available ballast that sits at** 

### 3 **the baseline for 250 watts.** 

### 4 **MR. GREEN: No, my point is when you** 

### 5 **did the comparison between the baseline and** 

### 6 **higher efficiency ballasts, did they actually** 

### 7 **fit in the fixture that was being analyzed?** 

### 8 **MR. WALKER: Sure. And then we do** 

### 9 **have a chart that kind of depicts this, but the** 

### 10 **- you're correct.** 

### 11 **So, EL1 and EL2 say at the 250 or** 

### 12 **400-watt levels, those are model ballasts.** 

### 13 **Those ballasts are not currently being sold.** 

### 14 **So, by definition, those model ballasts were not** 

### 15 **placed in a fixture because they don't - they're** 

### 16 **not currently being produced.** 

### 17 **That information - wait a minute.** 

### 18 **I'll say that information came from our** 

### 19 **manufacture interview process for determining** 

### 20 **the steel types, dimensions, those sorts of** 

### 21 **things that would approximate a particular** 

### 22 **efficiency. And then given those inputs, a cost**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 140**  **1 was estimated.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 3 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with Universal.** 

### 4 **Well, if the ballasts don't exist** 

### 5 **anywhere, then how do we know if they're going** 

### 6 **to fit in the fixture or not?** 

### 7 **I mean, if we just made them up, I** 

### 8 **mean, I can put air in a fixture, but we're** 

### 9 **talking about something that's real here, right?** 

### 10 **MR. WALKER: You raise a good point.** 

### 11 **The - I guess all I can say is that through this** 

### 12 **data collection process the intent was to have** 

### 13 **collected data that represented a more efficient** 

### 14 **ballast that had the same footprint.** 

### 15 **Now, it's very clear to me from this** 

### 16 **meeting that there's a lot of disagreement over** 

### 17 **that statement and I think DOE can take that sort** 

### 18 **of input into account moving forward.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 20 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Once again Chris with** 

### 21 **ULT.** 

### 22 **I would - if you would like to come**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 141**  **1 and personally sit with one of our engineers, I'm**  

### 2 **sure they can walk you through this process and** 

### 3 **what would actually be required to make this** 

### 4 **work. Maybe that would provide some insight.** 

### 5 **MR. WALKER: That actually could be** 

### 6 **something that we can take you up on.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel.** 

### 8 **MR. YOUNG: So, just a point of** 

### 9 **clarification. I don't think that DOE is** 

### 10 **suggesting that the top two lines for EL3 and EL4** 

### 11 **could be met using magnetic ballasts. Those are** 

### 12 **strictly talking about electronic ballasts.** 

### 13 **So, really, any type of, you know,** 

### 14 **again, increase in size for the magnetics would** 

### 15 **be limited to the EL1 and EL2 levels.** 

### 16 **So, at the 70-watt range it looks** 

### 17 **like maybe 78 percent versus 82 percent for the** 

### 18 **highest magnetic level; is that correct?** 

### 19 **MR. WALKER: You're correct, Daniel.** 

### 20 **EL1 and EL2 are meant to be represented by** 

### 21 **magnetic ballasts. Reaching efficiencies of** 

### 22 **EL3 and 4 we anticipated electronic ballasts**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 142**  **1 being used.**  

### 2 **MR. YOUNG: Right.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: John.** 

### 4 **MR. GREEN: Yes, John Green from** 

### 5 **Eaton Cooper Lighting. Same question.** 

### 6 **Do the electronic ballasts actually** 

### 7 **fit and function in those same fixtures as that** 

### 8 **- was that tested in doing the evaluation between** 

### 9 **the base level and the higher efficiency?** 

### 10 **I think the answer is probably no,** 

### 11 **but I just wanted to understand that.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 13 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Just in tandem with** 

### 14 **what John said - Chris with Universal - we can't** 

### 15 **make the assumption that just because - because** 

### 16 **the electronic HID ballast - let's take a 150** 

### 17 **design for a track fixture whose design is a very** 

### 18 **small ballast. You may have the assumption we** 

### 19 **can just throw it inside of a fixture.** 

### 20 **What we have to remember is, is that** 

### 21 **thing has to be heat-synched to pull heat out of** 

### 22 **those electronic components. So, it requires a**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 143**  **1 tight fit.**  

### 2 **Almost all of the eHID applications** 

### 3 **those products are sold into are friction fit,** 

### 4 **which means they basically slide directly into** 

### 5 **the housing of the ballast.** 

### 6 **So, the assumption that just because** 

### 7 **that ballast, the indoor version, because we're** 

### 8 **talking about how these things relate and making** 

### 9 **sure we're clear, the way that's designed today** 

### 10 **you can't just take that and put a bracket and** 

### 11 **think it's going to work.** 

### 12 **I mean, there has - that will be a** 

### 13 **complete - just to be clear, a complete redesign** 

### 14 **of those products as well.** 

### 15 **It will increase their size and it** 

### 16 **will also affect the fixtures, because the** 

### 17 **fixture manufacturers will have designed the** 

### 18 **fixtures in such a way that we can align the hot** 

### 19 **spots of those ballasts to a heat-synching part** 

### 20 **of that fixture to remove heat out of that** 

### 21 **ballast.** 

### 22 **So, it's more than - I just want to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 144**  **1 be clear when we look at this chart that if the**  

### 2 **assumption is that the magnetic will go away, we** 

### 3 **can easily put electronic in there, it's not -** 

### 4 **it's not - that thought process isn't going to** 

### 5 **work.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you,** 

### 7 **Chris.** 

### 8 **Alex, go ahead.** 

### 9 **MR. WALKER: I can kind of respond to** 

### 10 **that. The analysis does incorporate a higher** 

### 11 **both purchase cost for the** 

### 12 **electronically-ballasted fixture, as well as** 

### 13 **what we call a manufacturer conversion cost for** 

### 14 **developing those new fixtures.** 

### 15 **Now, we can certainly talk about** 

### 16 **those particular numbers and whether or not you** 

### 17 **think they're accurate.** 

### 18 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris again with ULT.** 

### 19 **Do you believe then at the higher** 

### 20 **purchase price at the customer level they'll be** 

### 21 **willing to make that switch, or I think that what** 

### 22 **you're missing out on is they won't make the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 145**  **1 switch and they're going to put a ballast - a**  

### 2 **magnetic ballast in that's going to draw more** 

### 3 **energy and you're going to lose what you're** 

### 4 **trying to do, because they're not going to pay** 

### 5 **more for - what the electronic version is going** 

### 6 **to cost and what the manufacturers have to do,** 

### 7 **they're not going to do that. They're going to** 

### 8 **put the higher wattage magnetic ballast in** 

### 9 **there.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex.** 

### 11 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 12 **NEMA.** 

### 13 **I want to - we already mentioned it** 

### 14 **in our presentation, and Chris and John also** 

### 15 **mentioned it, but - and I'll also bring it up at** 

### 16 **the very end under the regulatory impact** 

### 17 **analysis comment, but I want to expand on what** 

### 18 **was just said about compatibility.** 

### 19 **One of industry's distinct concerns** 

### 20 **regarding compatibility is not only metal** 

### 21 **halide, but high-intensity discharge products** 

### 22 **in general.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 146**  **1 There are three rulemakings going on**  

### 2 **right now that can affect the products we're** 

### 3 **talking about today, because there's also an HID** 

### 4 **lamps rulemaking and an HID lamps test procedure** 

### 5 **rulemaking.** 

### 6 **And I know because we've been** 

### 7 **yelling about it, I know the Department is** 

### 8 **attempting, in fairness, attempting to** 

### 9 **coordinate between those rules.** 

### 10 **And it's not that you aren't doing** 

### 11 **everything you can, but to go back to our slides,** 

### 12 **the absence of the finished test procedures in** 

### 13 **ANSI, the compatibility standards, means that no** 

### 14 **matter how hard we attempt to coordinate the** 

### 15 **rules from a compatibility standpoint with some** 

### 16 **of these needed standards lacking, we can't** 

### 17 **quite get there. And that's where a lot of the** 

### 18 **angst you're hearing is coming from.** 

### 19 **Right now manufacturers handle it.** 

### 20 **People call them and ask them what's the right** 

### 21 **one to use, and we do it. We don't have that** 

### 22 **refined to something we can put in a standard and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 147**  **1 put a cover page on and deliver so that everyone**  

### 2 **can refer to it.** 

### 3 **Normally, the Department would** 

### 4 **simply reference ANSI 82 point whatever it will** 

### 5 **end up being, and this whole discussion doesn't** 

### 6 **have to take place.** 

### 7 **But we're having to have the** 

### 8 **discussion and constantly raise these points and** 

### 9 **points of worry and concern of, okay, you found** 

### 10 **a ballast that achieves everything you want.** 

### 11 **Did you make sure it fits?** 

### 12 **And there's lots of permutations of** 

### 13 **that condition. Does it work? Does it** 

### 14 **function? Can you buy it or whatever? And** 

### 15 **that's why you keep hearing this.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is it Mark?** 

### 17 **MR. DUFFY: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please.** 

### 19 **MR. DUFFY: Yes, this is Mark Duffy** 

### 20 **of GE.** 

### 21 **I appreciate Alex's comments, but I** 

### 22 **wanted to go back to the simple discussion and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 148**  **1 the question about this modeling that was done**  

### 2 **for the efficiency levels.** 

### 3 **Just for the record, did the model** 

### 4 **that you use consider the thermal effects and the** 

### 5 **design into the luminaire, or did it simply focus** 

### 6 **on the ballast modeling itself with an** 

### 7 **assumption of the boundary conditions that would** 

### 8 **be present in a fictitious luminaire?** 

### 9 **MR. WALKER: I guess, Mark, I can say** 

### 10 **it would be closer to the latter and we would be,** 

### 11 **again, as always, open to information that would** 

### 12 **change that decision.** 

### 13 **MR. DUFFY: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca.** 

### 15 **MS. RAINER: And actually my question** 

### 16 **is - I'm sorry. Rebecca Rainer from Eaton** 

### 17 **Cooper. My question is for Daniel with the** 

### 18 **California investor utilities.** 

### 19 **A point that Chris made when** 

### 20 **discussing if you were going to pay a higher** 

### 21 **premium price for a, say, an** 

### 22 **electronic-ballasted fixture, your group, would**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 149**  **1 they actually pay?**  

### 2 **Because economics have to play a big** 

### 3 **role in the decision, would they actually pay** 

### 4 **that higher premium for that product, or would** 

### 5 **they go to a higher wattage which would consume** 

### 6 **more energy?** 

### 7 **MR. YOUNG: That's a good question.** 

### 8 **We'd have to see the numbers, obviously. The** 

### 9 **other thing that we might do is switch to LED,** 

### 10 **which I think a lot of people are suggesting that** 

### 11 **this is coming anyways and we should look at that** 

### 12 **anyways or focus instead on that which, you know,** 

### 13 **I do think I agree with that sentiment.** 

### 14 **And I would also suggest that should** 

### 15 **these standards result in an increase in price** 

### 16 **for metal halides, then it makes LEDs more** 

### 17 **attractive faster. And so, it could lead to a** 

### 18 **quicker market transformation towards LEDs.** 

### 19 **And if that's the case, we would** 

### 20 **suggest that DOE should consider that in their** 

### 21 **analysis and credit the rulemaking for gaining** 

### 22 **those savings.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 150**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Alex.**  

### 2 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 3 **NEMA.** 

### 4 **Just bear in mind the converse of** 

### 5 **that is manufacturers invest hundreds of** 

### 6 **millions into a technology that no one wants to** 

### 7 **buy.** 

### 8 **You stated the argument in a** 

### 9 **different way than we've been stating it is we're** 

### 10 **talking about very minimal percentage gains.** 

### 11 **And in the end, we're not going to sell a lot of** 

### 12 **them. So, we won't recoup that investment.** 

### 13 **And I think I agree, and I think a** 

### 14 **lot of my members agree that the more - just as** 

### 15 **you - I was going to say the same thing. The** 

### 16 **higher you raise the price on this product, the** 

### 17 **more you convince people to just go whole hog and** 

### 18 **go for the LED because it's the new, shiny,** 

### 19 **faster one anyway.** 

### 20 **But, you know, we've presented our** 

### 21 **sales graph up there, which makes it of high** 

### 22 **concern that you will recoup the investment to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 151**  **1 increase the efficiencies at all.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe.** 

### 3 **MR. HOWLEY: The other kind of** 

### 4 **counter to that is that if you are going to** 

### 5 **project that - right now the projectors project** 

### 6 **an energy savings within metal halide fixtures** 

### 7 **- this is a metal halide fixture rulemaking.** 

### 8 **They're projecting if we increase** 

### 9 **the efficiency of these fixtures, this much** 

### 10 **energy will be saved over the next 30 years from** 

### 11 **the metal halide fixture category.** 

### 12 **If indeed that category shrivels up** 

### 13 **much faster, then those savings are illusionary.** 

### 14 **You're not going to get all those** 

### 15 **savings over 30 years if, indeed, the category** 

### 16 **fades away much faster.** 

### 17 **Because right now they have the** 

### 18 **category staying fairly robust for 30 more years** 

### 19 **and only back to something like 2006 levels by** 

### 20 **2042.** 

### 21 **So, all those savings aren't there,** 

### 22 **is what I'm saying.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 152**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Mike.**  

### 2 **MR. STEVENS: Yes, I agree we are** 

### 3 **rapidly moving towards the LED - I'm Mike** 

### 4 **Stevens, Georgia Power. I'm sorry.** 

### 5 **We are also rapidly moving towards** 

### 6 **LED as the, you know, converting metal halide or** 

### 7 **changing out metal halide fixtures.** 

### 8 **One of the big concerns we have is** 

### 9 **when you look at those fixtures metal halide,** 

### 10 **they're not ready in LED. They're just not** 

### 11 **meeting IES standards yet.** 

### 12 **And, you know, I'm definitely** 

### 13 **concerned about 2015, I think it was the date,** 

### 14 **that that would be ready.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe, and then Chris,** 

### 16 **and then Steve.** 

### 17 **MR. COOK: I'm Keith.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, Keith. I** 

### 19 **apologize. Keith.** 

### 20 **MR. COOK: Keith Cook from Philips.** 

### 21 **The other way to look at your** 

### 22 **question which has been bugging me all along is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 153**  **1 if the DOE sets the standard so high that in**  

### 2 **essence they force a convergence to LED, in** 

### 3 **essence, haven't they eliminated a product class** 

### 4 **which is, by law, not allowed?** 

### 5 **(Discussion off the record.)** 

### 6 **MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from** 

### 7 **the General Counsel's Office.** 

### 8 **That's a good question. I think it** 

### 9 **depends, obviously, which level we choose here** 

### 10 **whether or not it could be deemed eliminating a** 

### 11 **product category.** 

### 12 **And it's something we're looking at.** 

### 13 **We're taking into consideration your comments** 

### 14 **and this is just a proposed rule.** 

### 15 **So, certainly if the effect would be** 

### 16 **to eliminate all products, that would not be a** 

### 17 **standard that we would typically want to strive** 

### 18 **for.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 20 **MR. HOLSTEIN: And just to comment on** 

### 21 **the LED transformation as well, I mean, from an** 

### 22 **R&D perspective that is the majority of our**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 154**  **1 research today is LED and LED technology.**  

### 2 **What challenges a company such as** 

### 3 **ourselves in a rulemaking like this is that if** 

### 4 **this passes at these levels, then, you know,** 

### 5 **essentially you have to divert from that new** 

### 6 **technology to look at the old technology to try** 

### 7 **to make it work, right, or try to come to a** 

### 8 **solution.** 

### 9 **So, if you want LED to come faster,** 

### 10 **then having a rule like this doesn't do that,** 

### 11 **right. It slows that transformation.** 

### 12 **And then I want to piggyback off of** 

### 13 **what the gentleman from Georgia Power said is** 

### 14 **that LED has come a long way in the last couple** 

### 15 **years, you know.** 

### 16 **Ten years ago we wouldn't even have** 

### 17 **had that conversation in this room. Nobody** 

### 18 **would have thought it would be where it is today** 

### 19 **and it increases at a rapid pace.** 

### 20 **But that being said, it's still not** 

### 21 **fully viable for every application that this** 

### 22 **rulemaking would try to cover, right.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 155**  **1 So, you get the high-mast**  

### 2 **applications, extremely high-wattage where, you** 

### 3 **know, we run into technical difficulties, and** 

### 4 **I'm sure people do as well, when you start** 

### 5 **throwing, you know, 15 drivers in a fixture, you** 

### 6 **know, 60 feet in the air trying to fire off the** 

### 7 **lumens required in a high-mast application and** 

### 8 **it's a problem, right.** 

### 9 **These things are things that the** 

### 10 **industry is solving and we're solving it now.** 

### 11 **But to divert energy resources away from that,** 

### 12 **it's not going to happen any faster. And then if** 

### 13 **the rulemaking passes where it actually is at** 

### 14 **these levels and, to your point, is going to push** 

### 15 **people to LED faster, it's not, because they're** 

### 16 **not going to be there. All the applications** 

### 17 **aren't covered.** 

### 18 **I mean, it's a good idea and I'm not** 

### 19 **trying to say -- but I just want to make sure** 

### 20 **everybody is clear that we can't just say LED is** 

### 21 **going to fix all this, because it won't. It's** 

### 22 **not going to fix it right now. Not in 2015, I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 156**  **1 should say.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 4 **Yes, and I guess the other issue is at least in** 

### 5 **some of the websites that I've looked at is, you** 

### 6 **know, the LED luminous efficacy is all over the** 

### 7 **place, where some are better than metal halides** 

### 8 **and some are a lot worse.** 

### 9 **So, actually, you know, in some** 

### 10 **cases you're switching from metal halide to LED,** 

### 11 **at least today, you actually could be increasing** 

### 12 **the wattage that you're using for a certain** 

### 13 **application. Again, it's all getting better.** 

### 14 **The whole class is getting better, but you have** 

### 15 **this range of, you know, plus or minus lumens per** 

### 16 **watt where you're forcing someone to go from** 

### 17 **metal halide to LED. If the LED prices keep** 

### 18 **going down and, you know, there is no floor for** 

### 19 **LEDs, you're going to get the opposite effect in** 

### 20 **some cases.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Ari.** 

### 22 **MR. ALTMAN: Yes, this is Ari Altman**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 157**  **1 from the General Counsel's office. I just want**  

### 2 **to remind everyone here that this is a rulemaking** 

### 3 **on metal halide lamp fixtures. And as Congress** 

### 4 **has written it, it includes the ballast. So, I** 

### 5 **know, Steve, you were concerned about that.** 

### 6 **That's the way the statute is written.** 

### 7 **And this is not an LED rulemaking.** 

### 8 **We know that LEDs potentially are the future of** 

### 9 **lighting and a replacement overall for this** 

### 10 **market, but DOE does -- is given -- has been given** 

### 11 **authority to amend these standards and they are** 

### 12 **metal halide standards, not LED standards.** 

### 13 **So, you know, to the extent that** 

### 14 **everyone here can give us, you know, your best** 

### 15 **judgment on where the standard can go, if** 

### 16 **anywhere, also in your written comments when the** 

### 17 **standard can go there, that would be best. I** 

### 18 **think the discussion of LEDs is important, but** 

### 19 **we really can't -- we, in setting a standard for** 

### 20 **metal halide, can't look at, well, there's** 

### 21 **another technology that people may be using in** 

### 22 **the future. As many people have mentioned here**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 158**  **1 already, it isn't a one-for-one replacement.**  

### 2 **LED can't achieve all of the effectiveness that** 

### 3 **metal halide does today. So, we do have to work** 

### 4 **with what we have here.** 

### 5 **And so, I just kind of want to move** 

### 6 **the conversation a little bit back to metal** 

### 7 **halide. Obviously you have concerns about** 

### 8 **these curves and let's talk about which ones** 

### 9 **might work and when they might work.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, do you want** 

### 11 **to press on to the next one?** 

### 12 **MR. WALKER: Okay. So, this next** 

### 13 **slide is very similar, but covers a different** 

### 14 **wattage range, from 500 to 2,000 watts. Because** 

### 15 **electronic ballasts are not available in this** 

### 16 **wattage range, you only see two efficiency** 

### 17 **levels; one and two or -- yes, ELs 1 and 2.** 

### 18 **So, DOE proposed a linear fit above** 

### 19 **500 watts through 1,000 after examining trends** 

### 20 **within catalog data. Similarly, above 1,000** 

### 21 **watts, DOE used catalog data to conclude that a** 

### 22 **constant and flat efficiency requirement best**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 159**  **1 represented the trend. Therefore, DOE set the**  

### 2 **equation as a constant value equal to the tested** 

### 3 **value of efficiency of a thousand-watt** 

### 4 **representative ballast.** 

### 5 **So, on Issue 24, DOE is seeking** 

### 6 **comments on the appropriateness of the** 

### 7 **efficiency levels proposed, and as NOPR we've** 

### 8 **already hit on this a little bit, as well as** 

### 9 **whether or not an adjustment is needed for** 

### 10 **sources of variation not currently captured by** 

### 11 **the methodology.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Steve** 

### 13 **Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 15 **EEI. So, EL2 in this case is the max tech based** 

### 16 **on the DOE research, right?** 

### 17 **MR. WALKER: Correct.** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: This is the max** 

### 19 **tech. And I just remember back in terms of** 

### 20 **discussion of the test procedure, the difference** 

### 21 **between EL1 and EL2 is about 0.6 percent. And** 

### 22 **if the test tolerance is plus or minus one**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 160**  **1 percent, it might be an issue. Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 3 **Other comments here? We want to keep it moving** 

### 4 **on here. Louis.** 

### 5 **MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with** 

### 6 **NEEA. I do have -- from the NOPR, it indicates** 

### 7 **that this market share of 500 above is 15 percent** 

### 8 **of the market, yet represents 40 percent of the** 

### 9 **energy use. Can you kind of elaborate on what** 

### 10 **those typical uses are, in terms of what kind of** 

### 11 **lighting that it's, you know, such a huge -- 40** 

### 12 **percent is quite a bit. Can you maybe elaborate** 

### 13 **on what kind of the breakdown is on that?** 

### 14 **MR. WALKER: Sure, I can say a little** 

### 15 **something, and I'm sure everyone else in the room** 

### 16 **will have a lot of examples as well.** 

### 17 **I mean, as far as the large amount** 

### 18 **of energy use, that relates to the very high** 

### 19 **wattage of this category, not so much the** 

### 20 **shipment just like you noted with those numbers.** 

### 21 **And we're talking about anywhere where you need** 

### 22 **lots of light. So, very high poles. Sports**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 161**  **1 lighting is an example. Floodlighting in large**  

### 2 **spaces. Perhaps an airfield or something like** 

### 3 **that.** 

### 4 **Do we have any other -- anyone else** 

### 5 **want to say anything else here?** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Doug.** 

### 7 **MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco** 

### 8 **Lighting.** 

### 9 **I guess the only comment I would make** 

### 10 **is, since you referenced sports lighting, while** 

### 11 **it is high wattages, the hours of usage is so** 

### 12 **small in a year which is in some of your** 

### 13 **information -- I think you used 350 hours a year** 

### 14 **-- compared to, I'll say, 1,000 watts that's in** 

### 15 **warehouses and everything that's running, you** 

### 16 **know, dusk to dawn or 24 hours a day, I don't** 

### 17 **think it's relevant to include sports lighting** 

### 18 **in that. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes, Cheryl.** 

### 20 **MS. ENGLISH: I think another area of** 

### 21 **that -- sorry. Cheryl English, Acuity Brands.** 

### 22 **Another area related to this on the high wattages**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 162**  **1 are extreme applications. So, steel mills,**  

### 2 **heavy industrial car manufacturing in very, very** 

### 3 **high spaces. These are the types of** 

### 4 **applications that are extremely problematic** 

### 5 **with the transient voltage and high temperature.** 

### 6 **So, you know, the thermal management** 

### 7 **of the products, the transient management of the** 

### 8 **products, really preclude the use of these** 

### 9 **higher levels of efficiency.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So, let's move** 

### 11 **on.** 

### 12 **MR. WALKER: Okay. So, this table** 

### 13 **kind of gives an overview of the ballast that** 

### 14 **typically meet the efficiency levels at each** 

### 15 **representative wattage. So, I'll just run** 

### 16 **through it real quickly.** 

### 17 **The baseline level - at the baseline** 

### 18 **level, all ballasts were commercially available** 

### 19 **magnetic ballasts. That was what was used to** 

### 20 **model that level of efficiency.** 

### 21 **Midway, the EL1 for the 150 to** 

### 22 **400-watt range -- or at 150 and 400 watts -- DOE**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 163**  **1 modeled magnetic ballasts to fill in gaps where**  

### 2 **commercially-available magnetic ballasts were** 

### 3 **not available. However, the remaining wattages** 

### 4 **at EL1 were represented by** 

### 5 **commercially-available magnetic ballasts which** 

### 6 **DOE purchased and tested.** 

### 7 **EL2 then represents the max tech** 

### 8 **level based on DOE's assessment of magnetic** 

### 9 **ballasts which were therefore -- or not** 

### 10 **therefore, but which were all modeled for 70** 

### 11 **through the 400-watt ranges. Though when you** 

### 12 **get to 1,000 watts, that EL2 ballast is** 

### 13 **commercially available.** 

### 14 **For EL3, from 70 through 400 watts,** 

### 15 **these are represented by** 

### 16 **commercially-available, low-frequency** 

### 17 **electronic ballasts.** 

### 18 **Finally, EL4 represents the max tech** 

### 19 **efficiency overall, but specifically is met by** 

### 20 **electronic ballasts which were** 

### 21 **commercially-available, low-frequency for 70,** 

### 22 **150 and 250. And like was alluded to before, the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 164**  **1 400-watt level includes a high-frequency**  

### 2 **electronic ballast. And as we just talked about** 

### 3 **on the previous slide, the EL3 and 4 did not apply** 

### 4 **to the thousand-watt grouping.** 

### 5 **And one more thought, actually.** 

### 6 **The asterisk here mentions, and we'll get to it** 

### 7 **in I think two slides from now, that there is a** 

### 8 **design standard being proposed in this** 

### 9 **rulemaking that would require the use -- or that** 

### 10 **would ban the use of probe-start ballasts in new** 

### 11 **fixtures.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.** 

### 13 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just a** 

### 14 **question. Are there commercially-available,** 

### 15 **low-frequency electronic ballasts at 400 watts?** 

### 16 **MR. WALKER: None were identified for** 

### 17 **this analysis.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith.** 

### 19 **MR. COOK: (Speaking off mic.)** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: I don't think you're** 

### 21 **on, Keith.** 

### 22 **MR. COOK: I'm sorry. Keith Cook,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 165**  **1 Philips. Matthew, could you elaborate a little**  

### 2 **bit on how these modeled magnetic ballasts were** 

### 3 **developed?** 

### 4 **MR. WALKER: Sure. So, the main** 

### 5 **inputs to the model would have been the magnetic** 

### 6 **steel grade and the wire.** 

### 7 **So through an interview process, we** 

### 8 **collected information sort of asking the** 

### 9 **question of if you increased the efficiency of** 

### 10 **an 88 percent ballast to -- I'm not going to say** 

### 11 **the number correctly, but maybe 90 percent** 

### 12 **without changing the footprint, what steel grade** 

### 13 **must you use? Does the wire change from** 

### 14 **aluminum to copper? Does the wire gauge** 

### 15 **increase?** 

### 16 **Based on the collection of that** 

### 17 **information, we were able to assign a price to** 

### 18 **that ballast based on a cost model we have that** 

### 19 **estimates the cost of purchasing that material,** 

### 20 **winding it, assembling other small components.** 

### 21 **I mean, as a high-level overview, that's the key** 

### 22 **factors.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 166**  **1 MR. COOK: Thanks.**  

### 2 **MR. WALKER: Sure.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko.** 

### 4 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko Oommen from** 

### 5 **Philips. I just want to make one comment here.** 

### 6 **You talk about discontinuing possibly the** 

### 7 **probe-start ballast and lamp. Some of the** 

### 8 **remote applications like that goes about like** 

### 9 **say 50 feet, you need to have that technology in** 

### 10 **place, because otherwise there are no options at** 

### 11 **all.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex.** 

### 13 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 14 **NEMA. I was actually going to make the same** 

### 15 **point. And I would invite Mr. Yates of Musco or** 

### 16 **one of the other owners and operators of** 

### 17 **high-mast HID metal halide, actually, to** 

### 18 **elaborate further on that.** 

### 19 **My understanding from my members** 

### 20 **from a technical perspective is, the pulse** 

### 21 **signal attenuates over the distance of running** 

### 22 **up the mast, because they tend to put the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 167**  **1 ballasts in the base of the pole for ease of**  

### 2 **maintenance. So, you can't get the sucker to** 

### 3 **light off reliably on a high-mast application.** 

### 4 **Probe-start alleviates that concern.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Doug.** 

### 6 **MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco, and** 

### 7 **maybe I'll reserve some of the comments until we** 

### 8 **get to Issue 26, because I think that** 

### 9 **specifically deals with it on the next page.** 

### 10 **But to that point, you'd have to add an igniter** 

### 11 **at the top of the pole. Now, you're adding costs** 

### 12 **and complexity.** 

### 13 **And so again, the point is it's not** 

### 14 **a good application. There really isn't an** 

### 15 **opportunity to go to the pulse-start. Again,** 

### 16 **I'll have further comments when we get to Issue** 

### 17 **26.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Alex.** 

### 19 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 20 **Boesenberg of NEMA. I would ask a general** 

### 21 **question for if -- to those here. But I think** 

### 22 **if we exempt thousand-watt and greater products**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 168**  **1 as not being general service, I think the problem**  

### 2 **goes away. Is that correct, everyone?** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 4 **MR. STARR: Well, I guess that would** 

### 5 **be one solution. But, you know, just based on** 

### 6 **the energy uses, it does seem like there's a lot** 

### 7 **of opportunity there.** 

### 8 **So, I think I guess the question is** 

### 9 **more of a legal one when you're talking about** 

### 10 **whether it's general or not, right. So, it's** 

### 11 **not so much about the energy savings where** 

### 12 **there's an opportunity, but kind of what the** 

### 13 **legal definition is, right.** 

### 14 **MR. WALKER: Alex, this is Matthew** 

### 15 **Walker. Can I ask you a clarification question?** 

### 16 **When you said not agreeing with the coverage of** 

### 17 **the highest wattages, were you including 1,000** 

### 18 **watts in that statement, or not including a** 

### 19 **thousand?** 

### 20 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 21 **Boesenberg, NEMA. I don't have my written thing** 

### 22 **in front of me.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 169**  **1 MR. WALKER: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. BOESENBERG: Perhaps one of my** 

### 3 **members can remember our discussions. I don't** 

### 4 **recall if it's 1,000 and greater or greater than** 

### 5 **1,000. I'll let someone else speak.** 

### 6 **MR. COOK: Keith Cook, Philips.** 

### 7 **Yes, a thousand-watt is frequently used in high** 

### 8 **mast, which does require the igniter if it's** 

### 9 **remote-mounted.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca, and then to** 

### 11 **Tom.** 

### 12 **MS. RAINER: I'm sorry, my comment** 

### 13 **doesn't really pertain to this. I do have** 

### 14 **someone on the phone also that wanted to make a** 

### 15 **comment, but they say they have no hand button** 

### 16 **to press. So, they don't have any way to make** 

### 17 **a comment. So, could you check that, please?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for bringing** 

### 19 **that to our attention. This software has been** 

### 20 **working fairly well to date.** 

### 21 **MS. RAINER: Joe Hancock.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Is he on?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 170**  **1 (Discussion off the record.)**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay, Tom.** 

### 3 **MR. HARDING: Tom Harding, Venture.** 

### 4 **Why are we considering probe-start for this** 

### 5 **category greater than a thousand -- or** 

### 6 **eliminating probe-start, in this category?** 

### 7 **In the first place, we made a comment** 

### 8 **that the efficiencies of the ballasts, probe and** 

### 9 **pulse, were about the same. You've added the** 

### 10 **cost of an igniter and my question is, why?** 

### 11 **MR. WALKER: Thomas, this is Matthew.** 

### 12 **We can -- it relates to the better mean efficacy** 

### 13 **of the lamp based on the assessment of 1,000-watt** 

### 14 **lamps. And we can talk about that in two slides.** 

### 15 **If we're ready to move on, we can go there.** 

### 16 **Otherwise, we can hold off.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go ahead.** 

### 18 **MR. HARDING: Just to make one more** 

### 19 **comment, those lamps greater than a thousand** 

### 20 **typically are three to 6,000-hour lamps.** 

### 21 **They're very short-life lamps, which is why** 

### 22 **there isn't a lot of energy savings. They don't**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 171**  **1 run very long.**  

### 2 **I don't know what -- the thinking is** 

### 3 **they're 20,000-hour lamps like thousand-watts** 

### 4 **and below. They are not. They're three to** 

### 5 **6,000-hour lamps. Short life. You don't gain** 

### 6 **much in terms of efficacy over a very short-life** 

### 7 **product.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Tim.** 

### 9 **MR. BALLO: Tim Ballo, Earthjustice.** 

### 10 **I'm just trying to understand the argument that** 

### 11 **the higher-wattage metal halides are not for** 

### 12 **general lighting application, because the** 

### 13 **statute defines that as providing overall** 

### 14 **illumination to an interior or exterior area.** 

### 15 **And I think we've heard that there** 

### 16 **are a variety of different applications that** 

### 17 **these higher wattage lamps serve: sports** 

### 18 **lighting, parks, airfields, those kind of** 

### 19 **things. So, I'm not seeing how that's not a** 

### 20 **general application of exterior illumination.** 

### 21 **MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from** 

### 22 **the General Counsel's office. I think there's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 172**  **1 a good question. You know, we're somewhat**  

### 2 **limited in defining general service lamps by, in** 

### 3 **this case, potentially wattage, but there's a** 

### 4 **confounding factor here which is that you can** 

### 5 **have the same wattage -- or maybe you can clarify** 

### 6 **for us.** 

### 7 **Can you have the same wattage lamp** 

### 8 **used for something that the industry would** 

### 9 **consider general service and something the** 

### 10 **industry would not consider general service?** 

### 11 **MR. HOWLEY: I suppose that's** 

### 12 **possible at the lower wattages. We -- pretty** 

### 13 **much everything over a thousand watts, we would** 

### 14 **say is specialty, not general service. At a** 

### 15 **thousand watts, I think you have some of both** 

### 16 **going on. Some general service, and some** 

### 17 **specialty.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Sue, go ahead.** 

### 19 **MS. CALLAHAN: Okay. If we look at** 

### 20 **the DOE Lighting Market Characterization, if we** 

### 21 **just consider outdoor lighting and look at** 

### 22 **stadium lighting or if we just look at outdoor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 173**  **1 lighting, the only place where we see wattages,**  

### 2 **typical standard wattages over a thousand -- and** 

### 3 **these are coming in at 1554 -- is stadium** 

### 4 **lighting. Everything else is 400 watts and** 

### 5 **below.** 

### 6 **And all we see for indoor lighting** 

### 7 **is a fraction over 400 watts, you know, 430,** 

### 8 **something like that and below, which pretty much** 

### 9 **indicates that where these lamps are used is very** 

### 10 **specific. To Doug's point, we're at the -- and** 

### 11 **we're operating only during the event, which** 

### 12 **comes out at roughly an hour a day.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl.** 

### 14 **MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English, Acuity** 

### 15 **Brands. So, my comment is actually reverting** 

### 16 **back to Tom Harding. So, I don't know if you** 

### 17 **want to take more comments or if you want me to** 

### 18 **revert back.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go.** 

### 20 **MS. ENGLISH: Okay. So, Tom made the** 

### 21 **point about the energy savings potential at a** 

### 22 **thousand watt. And I believe the response,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 174**  **1 Matthew, was that the energy savings come from**  

### 2 **the lamp more so than from the ballast; is that** 

### 3 **correct?** 

### 4 **MR. WALKER: That is correct.** 

### 5 **MS. ENGLISH: Okay. And so, I will** 

### 6 **remind us that, you know, DOE legal has clarified** 

### 7 **that this rulemaking is a metal halide fixture** 

### 8 **rulemaking based on ballast efficiency.** 

### 9 **So, again, I think that that does** 

### 10 **raise a question of whether or not those** 

### 11 **efficiency levels can be justified under the** 

### 12 **statutory authority of this rulemaking.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I thought I saw** 

### 14 **someone else over here. Maybe not. Tim.** 

### 15 **MR. BALLO: Just one more follow-up** 

### 16 **comment on the general lighting application** 

### 17 **issue, you know.** 

### 18 **The focus there, we've been focusing** 

### 19 **on the application of the fixture, but the** 

### 20 **definition also refers to overall illumination.** 

### 21 **And I'm wondering if maybe the distinction isn't** 

### 22 **really that it's not a spotlight or, you know,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 175**  **1 something that is intended to illuminate only a**  

### 2 **specific area rather than overall in an** 

### 3 **interior/exterior area.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's keep** 

### 5 **going.** 

### 6 **MR. WALKER: All right. So, a little** 

### 7 **-- a note on the input power estimation for the** 

### 8 **rulemaking. When establishing the ballast** 

### 9 **input power associated with an efficiency level,** 

### 10 **DOE modified the tested input power to account** 

### 11 **for a rise in lamp voltage over time for magnetic** 

### 12 **ballast efficiency levels, just because a** 

### 13 **magnetic ballast is unable to compensate for a** 

### 14 **rise in lamp voltage over life. So, system** 

### 15 **wattage increases over time.** 

### 16 **On the other hand, electronic** 

### 17 **ballasts were able to sense this change and** 

### 18 **maintain wattage over the life of the system.** 

### 19 **So, based on feedback received, DOE estimated** 

### 20 **that the system -- the system wattage increases** 

### 21 **up to 11 percent for magnetic ballasts, or for** 

### 22 **magnetically-ballasted systems. And,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 176**  **1 therefore, accounted for that increase using a**  

### 2 **multiplier when calculating the magnetic** 

### 3 **ballast system energy use and did so by** 

### 4 **multiplying the tested input power by five and** 

### 5 **a half - or by five and a half percent, 1.055.** 

### 6 **DOE seeks comments on this approach** 

### 7 **to representing magnetic system input power.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 10 **EEI. Just a quick follow-up question. When** 

### 11 **you say up to 11 percent, is that a typical case,** 

### 12 **or is that a worst-case value?** 

### 13 **MR. WALKER: That is --** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: For this class of** 

### 15 **product.** 

### 16 **MR. WALKER: Sure. That represents** 

### 17 **a best estimate of how to characterize this** 

### 18 **phenomenon and we are seeking feedback on that** 

### 19 **estimate.** 

### 20 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. And, again,** 

### 21 **the reason I'm asking is suppose the range, you** 

### 22 **know, depending on the model and the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 177**  **1 application, is anywhere from, let's say, two to**  

### 2 **11 percent rather than, you know, makes it seem** 

### 3 **like 11 percent is like a median or** 

### 4 **shipment-weighted average. The way it's** 

### 5 **written looks like that's kind of a max case** 

### 6 **there. So, I just wanted to -- it might be** 

### 7 **semantics. I'm just kind of curious about --** 

### 8 **MR. WALKER: No, I see the point** 

### 9 **you're making. But based on the wording here,** 

### 10 **it is meant to be the best estimate of what** 

### 11 **happens in a typical case.** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. That helps.** 

### 13 **Steve Rosenstock, yes, that helps if that's --** 

### 14 **if it's a worst-case, then I would have some, I'd** 

### 15 **have some qualms about using it. But if it's a** 

### 16 **typical case, I see your methodology. Thank** 

### 17 **you.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 19 **Daniel.** 

### 20 **MR. YOUNG: Another follow-up** 

### 21 **question for DOE or for manufacturers if they can** 

### 22 **answer the question, but do you know what the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 178**  **1 shape of that curve looks like when it goes from**  

### 2 **zero up to 11 percent? Is it a linear** 

### 3 **depreciation, or curved?** 

### 4 **MR. WALKER: Yes, so the analysis** 

### 5 **assumes that it's a linear shape. However,** 

### 6 **there is not an abundance of data relating to** 

### 7 **this particular phenomenon. And so, that's** 

### 8 **sort of a conservative estimate relative to some** 

### 9 **other curvature that has a higher percentage of** 

### 10 **time closer to 11 percent, but we're certainly** 

### 11 **seeking feedback on this five and a half percent** 

### 12 **estimator.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes, Tom.** 

### 14 **MR. HARDING: Tom Harding, Venture.** 

### 15 **There is a voltage rise associated with metal** 

### 16 **halide lamps during life. However, it's** 

### 17 **extremely variable. You can make lamps that** 

### 18 **have very little and lamps that have a lot. So,** 

### 19 **I caution you against kind of typifying the whole** 

### 20 **industry with a number when it's highly** 

### 21 **variable.** 

### 22 **And also, it isn't totally linear**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 179**  **1 because as other features happen to the lamp,**  

### 2 **that can go down. The power factor** 

### 3 **consideration of the lamp makes them go down with** 

### 4 **time. So, I caution you about using that model** 

### 5 **at all for this number.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's move on.** 

### 7 **MR. WALKER: So, EISA 2007 did grant** 

### 8 **DOE authority to set an energy conservation** 

### 9 **standard based on both design and performance** 

### 10 **requirements. DOE estimated the use of a design** 

### 11 **standard to prohibit the sale of probe-start** 

### 12 **ballasts used in new fixtures.** 

### 13 **So, looking at the market because** 

### 14 **EISA 2007 had already set efficiency levels that** 

### 15 **effectively ban the use of probe-start ballasts** 

### 16 **and because probe-start ballasts are -- were** 

### 17 **never really used less than 150 watts, DOE** 

### 18 **targeted its design standard proposal on the 500** 

### 19 **to 2,000-watt range.** 

### 20 **So, like we were just getting into** 

### 21 **a couple minutes ago, the main advantages of** 

### 22 **pulse-start systems would be lumen maintenance**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 180**  **1 in the higher main lamp efficacies. But because**  

### 2 **the ballast efficiency differences are minimal,** 

### 3 **a switch to pulse-start systems cannot be** 

### 4 **achieved through a ballast efficiency standard** 

### 5 **alone. Instead, the design standard is** 

### 6 **required to encourage this change. So,** 

### 7 **therefore, in the NOPR, DOE considered both** 

### 8 **performance-based efficiency standards and** 

### 9 **design standard that bans probe-start ballasts** 

### 10 **in new fixtures and certain wattages.** 

### 11 **And I guess I can read this Issue 26.** 

### 12 **We're seeking comment on the design standard, as** 

### 13 **well as the potential for loss of utility through** 

### 14 **a transition of pulse-start.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Doug.** 

### 16 **MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco** 

### 17 **Lighting. I've got, I think, a few things here** 

### 18 **and I'll try and be brief.** 

### 19 **When I go back -- the first item.** 

### 20 **When I go back to the graph on Slide 36 where you** 

### 21 **just used EL1 and EL2, and that was because it** 

### 22 **was recognized there were no**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 181**  **1 commercially-available electronic ballasts**  

### 2 **available, we agree with that.** 

### 3 **I want to reference a study done by** 

### 4 **the Department of Energy back in February of 2013** 

### 5 **looking at lamps where there's -- it was an HID** 

### 6 **Lamp Interim Analysis. On Page 555, they** 

### 7 **recognized that there are no pulse-start lamps** 

### 8 **available either. So, to -- in that category** 

### 9 **the higher wattages. So, I guess to be** 

### 10 **consistent, it's another reason from my** 

### 11 **perspective that we wouldn't be considering that** 

### 12 **up in those higher wattages, you know, above a** 

### 13 **thousand watts. I know there is at a thousand,** 

### 14 **but there isn't at that level. So, I guess** 

### 15 **that's one point.** 

### 16 **The other point, and I won't go into** 

### 17 **the detail, but we take issue with the 5.6** 

### 18 **percent savings that's assumed on the** 

### 19 **thousand-watt lamp. I'll just say that there's** 

### 20 **a lot that goes into how the lamp is oriented,** 

### 21 **the arc tube. Industry testing is done in a** 

### 22 **vertical position. It's very standard. And I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 182**  **1 think that's shown in also the testing that DOE**  

### 2 **did in that they show there's 12,000 hours for** 

### 3 **a vertical arc tube, and 9,000 for a horizontal.** 

### 4 **And then they used 11,700 as a means. So,** 

### 5 **obviously they took it way towards the vertical** 

### 6 **position.** 

### 7 **Again, when you get into a sports** 

### 8 **lighting application, that lamp arc tube is** 

### 9 **always going to be in a horizontal or in, even** 

### 10 **worse, a tilted position. And so, to assume** 

### 11 **there's going to be those energy savings, it's** 

### 12 **just a bad assumption and we've got test data** 

### 13 **that we will provide where, you know, those** 

### 14 **efficacy gains aren't there in that type of** 

### 15 **operating position.** 

### 16 **So, and then I think later on we'll** 

### 17 **get into the cost analysis. I'll say some** 

### 18 **further comments for that, but those are just** 

### 19 **another couple of points from my perspective or** 

### 20 **our perspective at Musco that it just doesn't** 

### 21 **make any sense to have the 1,500 watt included** 

### 22 **in this -- or above a thousand watt included in**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 183**  **1 this NOPR.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Mark, you all** 

### 3 **set? Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 5 **yes. Just a thought. Suppose there's a** 

### 6 **manufacturer out there working to improve the** 

### 7 **efficiency of the probe-start ballasts and** 

### 8 **they're able to produce one that has a higher** 

### 9 **efficiency? What's the impact of this ban in** 

### 10 **that scenario?** 

### 11 **MR. WALKER: Well, as written, the** 

### 12 **ban would supersede any efficiency gain that a** 

### 13 **probe-start ballast is able to achieve. It** 

### 14 **simply says probe-start ballasts may not be sold** 

### 15 **in new fixtures.** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 17 **Yes, I thank you for that. Again, I see the** 

### 18 **premise why you're thinking is that, well, right** 

### 19 **now, you know, the probe-start ballasts are** 

### 20 **lower efficiencies. So, if you ban them, hey,** 

### 21 **you're getting rid of a lower-efficiency** 

### 22 **product. But on the other hand, you know,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 184**  **1 lighting technology changes.**  

### 2 **I just always get a little concerned** 

### 3 **about outright bans, because you never know** 

### 4 **where the technology is going to take you. And** 

### 5 **if there's a manufacturer working on improving** 

### 6 **the efficiency of it, you've banned them from** 

### 7 **possibly allowing a higher-efficiency ballast** 

### 8 **to be used in these fixtures.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional comments** 

### 10 **here and specifically related to Issue 26?** 

### 11 **(No response.)** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: I think we should** 

### 13 **break for lunch. I think that it's time. It's** 

### 14 **10 minutes after 12:00. Let's have a full hour** 

### 15 **for lunch. Please, those of you that aren't** 

### 16 **familiar with the Forrestal Building, do not** 

### 17 **leave the Forrestal Building.** 

### 18 **We can all go en masse to the** 

### 19 **elevators down to the ground floor. There's a** 

### 20 **Subway shop if you want a Subway sandwich.** 

### 21 **Where the coffee shop is located on the ground** 

### 22 **floor, you hang left there, but there's a big**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 185**  **1 cafeteria, full-service cafeteria. You go** 



### 2 **right and about a hundred yards underneath the**



### 3 **road, over and then up two escalators.**



### 4 **You might need an ID to get back in.**



### 5 **You will certainly need this badge. You'll have**



### 6 **to pass through a security device. But, I mean,**



### 7 **so that this room will be locked. It will be**



### 8 **monitored. So, you can leave your stuff here.**



### 9 **Okay.**



### 10 **So, everybody understands the plan?**



### 11 **We're going to resume at 10 minutes after 1:00.**



### 12 **We've covered a lot of ground. We'll continue**



### 13 **at that point. See you back here at 10 after**



### 14 **1:00.**



### 15 **(Whereupon, the proceedings went**



### 16 **off the record.)**



### 17

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 186**  **1 A-F-T-E-R-N-O-O-N S-E-S-S-I-O-N**  

### 2 **(1:13 p.m.)** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's** 

### 4 **resume. I think we are on Slide 40 and Matthew** 

### 5 **Walker.** 

### 6 **MR. WALKER: All right. Okay. So** 

### 7 **Slide 40 gets us into the pricing component of** 

### 8 **the engineering analysis. We conduct the price** 

### 9 **analysis so that a cost efficiency relationship** 

### 10 **can be established. These prices used by DOE** 

### 11 **are developed using teardown data, retail prices** 

### 12 **from online distributors, as well as some** 

### 13 **aggregated manufacturer feedback through the** 

### 14 **interview process.** 

### 15 **I should highlight three changes** 

### 16 **from the preliminary analysis. The first is** 

### 17 **that material prices were updated for this cost** 

### 18 **model for the magnetic ballast. We have also** 

### 19 **added incremental cost of fixtures using** 

### 20 **electronic ballasts with the intent being to** 

### 21 **render those fixtures suitable substitutes for** 

### 22 **magnetically ballasted fixtures. And,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 187**  **1 finally, the application of manufacturer**  

### 2 **markups was modified a bit to align better with** 

### 3 **existing channels.** 

### 4 **All right. So Slide 41 expands on** 

### 5 **the incremental cost for fixtures using** 

### 6 **electronic ballasts. So as mentioned before,** 

### 7 **the designation of a fixture as indoor or outdoor** 

### 8 **had no effect on the achievable efficiency of the** 

### 9 **ballasts. Instead, the difference is with the** 

### 10 **cost of the fixture.** 

### 11 **Magnetic ballasts are more robust** 

### 12 **than electronic ballasts and can handle higher** 

### 13 **temperatures and the high-voltage transients** 

### 14 **that come with outdoor applications. Because** 

### 15 **most electronic ballasts aren't designed for** 

### 16 **those conditions, fixtures using electronic** 

### 17 **ballasts require additional thermal management,** 

### 18 **voltage transient protection when used** 

### 19 **outdoors.** 

### 20 **Additionally, when electronic** 

### 21 **ballasts are used indoors, we incorporated a** 

### 22 **small cost adder to account for the need for**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 188**  **1 120-volt auxiliary power functionality, which**  

### 2 **we used for safety purposes in the event of a** 

### 3 **power outage, a temporary loss of power.** 

### 4 **So the figure on this slide gives an** 

### 5 **example cost efficiency graph, specifically for** 

### 6 **the 400-watt fixtures. So you can see that the** 

### 7 **end result is that indoor and outdoor fixtures** 

### 8 **are assumed to have the same cost efficiency** 

### 9 **relationship when using magnetic ballasts, so** 

### 10 **that's at EL1 and EL2. Then, when you** 

### 11 **transition to electronic ballasts at EL3 and 4,** 

### 12 **the outdoor fixture MSPs are larger relative to** 

### 13 **the indoor fixture MSPs.** 

### 14 **So I'll read the first issue. DOE** 

### 15 **is seeking comment on the applicability and** 

### 16 **appropriateness of electronic ballast MPC** 

### 17 **adders for the three factors that we just talked** 

### 18 **about.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith.** 

### 20 **MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with** 

### 21 **Philips. I guess I'm a little concerned with** 

### 22 **this because it leads you to believe that in any**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 189**  **1 application you can just replace a magnetic with**  

### 2 **an electronic. And as we said two years ago,** 

### 3 **that is not always the case. Due to the heat** 

### 4 **considerations, today a lot of the HID fixtures** 

### 5 **are designed that the core and coil is right** 

### 6 **above the lamp.** 

### 7 **And so if you've got a 400-watt** 

### 8 **application, all of that heat is going straight** 

### 9 **up into the ballast. Core and coil doesn't** 

### 10 **care. With an electronic, it cannot live in** 

### 11 **that environment. Pure and simple. And so to** 

### 12 **believe that we can just replace magnetic with** 

### 13 **electronic doesn't work.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Chacko.** 

### 15 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips.** 

### 16 **Something that you have to keep in mind, the** 

### 17 **auxiliary power, the electronics option, is** 

### 18 **always not available for all of the electronic** 

### 19 **ballasts. So then you have to end up putting an** 

### 20 **additional transformer in there. It's going to** 

### 21 **add more cost and losses.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Chris? No?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 190**  **1 Joe.**  

### 2 **MR. HOWLEY: Well, it also seems** 

### 3 **that this analysis does not include the comment** 

### 4 **made earlier that at certain of these levels the** 

### 5 **footprint of the electromagnetic ballast is** 

### 6 **going to have to increase to go to these higher** 

### 7 **efficiency levels, which means every one of** 

### 8 **these fixtures is going to have to be redesigned** 

### 9 **to be larger.** 

### 10 **And if the fixtures are redesigned** 

### 11 **to be larger, in some cases the poles are going** 

### 12 **to have to be redesigned to be bigger. And so** 

### 13 **there is a lot of extra cost when you get into** 

### 14 **bigger fixtures and bigger poles, and none of** 

### 15 **that extra cost is included in the price analysis** 

### 16 **or the economic analysis.** 

### 17 **MR. WALKER: Can I pose a follow up** 

### 18 **on the electronic ballasts? So it is true that** 

### 19 **there are electronic ballasts, metal halide** 

### 20 **ballasts, being sold on the market right now.** 

### 21 **Would we be able to talk about where those** 

### 22 **electronic ballasts are being used and maybe**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 191**  **1 specifically where they are not being used for**  

### 2 **the concerns that you all are citing?** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca.** 

### 4 **MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer, Eaton** 

### 5 **Cooper. I can say for my company we use no** 

### 6 **electronic ballasts for any of our HID product** 

### 7 **today, except maybe a very limited low wattage** 

### 8 **in some garage applications, but that's very** 

### 9 **limited.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe?** 

### 11 **MR. HOWLEY: Joe Howley from GE.** 

### 12 **We do have an electronic, but it is -- the higher** 

### 13 **wattage of the 400-watt version is designed for** 

### 14 **sort of an indoor industrial, you know, air** 

### 15 **conditioned/heated space type of application.** 

### 16 **So an ideal sort of indoor space that we sell** 

### 17 **either, you know, in a -- perhaps a warehouse or** 

### 18 **perhaps a retail, probably more likely a big box** 

### 19 **kind of retail application where you have ideal** 

### 20 **operating conditions.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith?** 

### 22 **MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 192**  **1 Philips. We make a lot of electronic HID-type**  

### 2 **ballasts, anywhere from the 400 watt down to** 

### 3 **39 -- 25 watt I think may be the smallest one we** 

### 4 **have.** 

### 5 **A lot of them are used in retail** 

### 6 **applications. A lot of them are not necessarily** 

### 7 **for coarse metal halide. A lot of them are for** 

### 8 **ceramic metal halide, which is a little bit more** 

### 9 **adaptable to this technology. But even the** 

### 10 **coarse metal halide, typically it has required** 

### 11 **major fixture redesigns, totally new fixtures in** 

### 12 **order to use them. They couldn't be replaced in** 

### 13 **existing fixtures.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl?** 

### 15 **MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English,** 

### 16 **Acuity Brands. So to answer your question, we** 

### 17 **use electronic ballasts and low wattage in down** 

### 18 **lights, cylinder type of architectural** 

### 19 **lighting, low wattage condition spaces where** 

### 20 **there is no temperature or good power quality.** 

### 21 **That's the only place we use them.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thanks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 193**  **1 to all of you. Yes, Louis.**  

### 2 **MR. STARR: Louis Starr with NEEA.** 

### 3 **Maybe the manufacturers can help understand** 

### 4 **this. The reason that maybe electronic** 

### 5 **ballasts aren't used in higher wattage is** 

### 6 **because it would take research and development** 

### 7 **to make that happen.** 

### 8 **Is that the primary reason? Or is** 

### 9 **it just that costs associated with that doesn't** 

### 10 **seem really a worthwhile payback? Or what's the** 

### 11 **general kind of movement not to do that? Or is** 

### 12 **it strictly -- it's a utility thing, it just** 

### 13 **doesn't make sense to use it in this application,** 

### 14 **so why would you do it?** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chacko.** 

### 16 **MR. OOMMEN: From our own** 

### 17 **history -- Chacko from Philips -- we have -- the** 

### 18 **highest power that we have was 400 watt. We** 

### 19 **actually discontinued the 400 watt for similar** 

### 20 **reasons. But we looked at other higher power** 

### 21 **units. There are no components available for** 

### 22 **such a high power to fit inside a certain**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 194**  **1 enclosure.**  

### 2 **So if you make it like big as the big** 

### 3 **power supplies, I mean, we cannot sell those.** 

### 4 **So basically the components are not available** 

### 5 **for the high power applications -- reasonably** 

### 6 **sized components. And also, the expense, the** 

### 7 **cost of it is very higher than, much higher** 

### 8 **than -- maybe three times the magnetic ballast.** 

### 9 **MR. KEITH COOK: The other problem** 

### 10 **we had -- this is Keith Cook with Philips. The** 

### 11 **other problem we had was also getting heat out,** 

### 12 **because at the higher power we also -- we are** 

### 13 **typically in higher temperature environments.** 

### 14 **And the components, we just couldn't find** 

### 15 **enough -- the components were rated at those high** 

### 16 **temperatures. It was just very difficult.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 18 **MR. STARR: So the components are** 

### 19 **probably the heat sink, the ballast enclosure** 

### 20 **itself. What are some of the components that** 

### 21 **are kind of the limiting factors?** 

### 22 **MR. KEITH COOK: Switching**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 195**  **1 electronics was part of the problem, but the**  

### 2 **capacitors was also the other biggest problem.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 4 **A small primer. Daniel?** 

### 5 **MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young,** 

### 6 **California Utilities. So I've actually seen a** 

### 7 **few projects, outdoor lighting projects, in fact** 

### 8 **that were specified with ceramic metal halide** 

### 9 **lamps and electronic ballasts. So I guess my** 

### 10 **question is, is there a reason that some outdoor** 

### 11 **fixtures or projects could use ceramic metal** 

### 12 **halides, electronic ballasts, and others would** 

### 13 **not be able to?** 

### 14 **MR. OOMMEN: The last few that we** 

### 15 **made, they could be used for outdoor** 

### 16 **application, that we designed specifically for** 

### 17 **that application. But, you know, basically,** 

### 18 **the problem is the fixture manufacturer had to** 

### 19 **make new fixtures for those designs. They** 

### 20 **cannot use existing designs, you know, so brand** 

### 21 **new.** 

### 22 **MR. YOUNG: Right. And, again, so**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 196**  **1 since this is a fixture rulemaking, then**  

### 2 **existing fixtures -- well, I mean, there are** 

### 3 **other reasons for considering retrofits, but,** 

### 4 **really, the rule applies to new fixtures. So I** 

### 5 **guess I don't see the problem there.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: So going** 

### 7 **back -- Chacko, thank you for your comment.** 

### 8 **Alex?** 

### 9 **MR. HOFMANN: Okay. I was going to** 

### 10 **has a question, but maybe I --** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Go right ahead.** 

### 12 **Please.** 

### 13 **MR. HOFMANN: All right. Yes, new** 

### 14 **fixtures are the focus here. We are very** 

### 15 **concerned about maintaining the existing -- the** 

### 16 **ability to maintain our existing** 

### 17 **infrastructure. What I'd like to ask is, in** 

### 18 **this thermal management line item, did you** 

### 19 **include -- does that include things like** 

### 20 **weather, the type of stuff that a fixture might** 

### 21 **deal with, but extreme cold, extreme heat,** 

### 22 **humidity, salt water, salt air? Is the 20**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 197**  **1 percent increase for outdoor exposure to the**  

### 2 **elements? Because to me that seems a little bit** 

### 3 **low, but, I mean, obviously, I'm not an expert.** 

### 4 **So --** 

### 5 **MR. WALKER: Well, the 20 percent** 

### 6 **increase would apply to the high temperature** 

### 7 **scenario, not so much the extreme cold. And it** 

### 8 **doesn't have anything to do with the saline** 

### 9 **environment or something like that.** 

### 10 **So, yes, the 20 percent cost adder** 

### 11 **addresses the need for additional heat sinking,** 

### 12 **a more expensive fixture design that allows for** 

### 13 **extraction of more heats from the electronic** 

### 14 **ballast situation, because they are less able to** 

### 15 **operate under such high temperatures. And that** 

### 16 **happens in both the indoor and outdoor** 

### 17 **scenarios, because even in an indoors at the top** 

### 18 **of a ceiling and a hot non-air-conditioned space** 

### 19 **you are still dealing with very high** 

### 20 **temperatures.** 

### 21 **So that adder was applied in both the** 

### 22 **indoor and outdoor situation for the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 198**  **1 electronically ballasted fixture.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe?** 

### 3 **MR. HOWLEY: So just to kind of put** 

### 4 **this out, I was going back to this other** 

### 5 **conversation we were having about what you're** 

### 6 **hearing is that many, many of these fixtures** 

### 7 **today and applications do not have and are not** 

### 8 **designed to use electronic ballasts. In fact,** 

### 9 **the vast majority of them, especially on the** 

### 10 **higher wattages, are designed to use** 

### 11 **electromagnetic. If we attempt to go into** 

### 12 **electronic, especially outdoors, it takes a** 

### 13 **great deal of care and attention and design and** 

### 14 **development.** 

### 15 **I understand they are planning on** 

### 16 **putting this rulemaking in place in 12 months,** 

### 17 **and it is an enormous engineering problem to go** 

### 18 **through and even take one of our fixtures and to** 

### 19 **try to adapt it to an electronic design, try to** 

### 20 **make sure that's properly made, it's thermally** 

### 21 **managed, it's tested, it's UL tested, the** 

### 22 **thermals are right. It is a big engineering**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 199**  **1 problem to do this, and it is -- we are almost**  

### 2 **starting from scratch with that where we have to** 

### 3 **design that from scratch.** 

### 4 **It's not something that can be done** 

### 5 **in 12 months, and that is, you know, part of our** 

### 6 **huge concern here is that it -- almost it seems** 

### 7 **like this would -- kind of the contemplation is** 

### 8 **I can just take my existing magnetic fixture and** 

### 9 **just throw an electronic ballast into it and I'm** 

### 10 **good to go. And that is not the case at all.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's hear** 

### 12 **from -- yes, Alex, I think you were next, and then** 

### 13 **Chris.** 

### 14 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 15 **Boesenberg from NEMA. I want to follow up on Mr.** 

### 16 **Young's last statement regarding some** 

### 17 **California applications. And I think part of** 

### 18 **what -- something we have mentioned but not** 

### 19 **actually come right out and talked about is that** 

### 20 **there are existing regulations in California** 

### 21 **that beget the use of electronic ballasts** 

### 22 **outside.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 200**  **1 And my members are free to speak up**  

### 2 **as soon as I'm finished. My understanding of** 

### 3 **the California regulations is that that is being** 

### 4 **satisfied through two -- two different ways or** 

### 5 **by the combination of two different conditions.** 

### 6 **The first condition is replacing the fixture,** 

### 7 **such as we are already speaking of. Those** 

### 8 **fixtures were redesigned, made better to work** 

### 9 **with the ballasts to keep an electronic ballast** 

### 10 **operating correctly and alive outdoors.** 

### 11 **The other thing is the efficiency** 

### 12 **level in California is low enough that the amount** 

### 13 **of redesign was not as challenging as would be** 

### 14 **proposed in some of the levels of this rule. So** 

### 15 **it was kept low enough that we could make it for** 

### 16 **certain products, not necessarily the whole** 

### 17 **gamut, not as wide a range of products as we're** 

### 18 **talking here today.** 

### 19 **So California pushed us hard. I** 

### 20 **think it pushed -- a nice way to say it,** 

### 21 **California was certainly higher than** 

### 22 **certain -- than some manufacturers wanted, than**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 201**  **1 some people wanted. But it was still kept to a**  

### 2 **level that was attainable. And so it has been** 

### 3 **a very useful learning experience in terms of** 

### 4 **being successful in electronic ballast** 

### 5 **applications outdoors. It is not necessarily** 

### 6 **scalable yet.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris?** 

### 8 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with** 

### 9 **Universal. I just wanted to add on to Joe's** 

### 10 **comment, from a design cycle standpoint. I** 

### 11 **mean, when you -- you think eight to 12 months'** 

### 12 **design cycle, which would incorporate your** 

### 13 **design, your DVT, your design validation** 

### 14 **testing, and then your UL testing, and then it** 

### 15 **doesn't end there. Then we go into all of our** 

### 16 **life-cycle testing, ALT 8, HALT, and everything** 

### 17 **else.** 

### 18 **I mean, it's not -- I just wanted** 

### 19 **to -- from a manufacturer of a ballast's** 

### 20 **perspective, just kind of back up his comment** 

### 21 **that, you know, if they're looking at 12 months,** 

### 22 **that is -- one product takes eight to 12 months**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 202**  **1 to do. And then that is making the assumption**  

### 2 **that we know exactly how it is going to work in** 

### 3 **the fixture. And as we're talking, those** 

### 4 **fixtures don't even exist. So we wouldn't even** 

### 5 **have any idea where to start with the thermals** 

### 6 **on this thing.** 

### 7 **MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young,** 

### 8 **California Utilities. If I could just respond** 

### 9 **to a couple of the points. So, first, with** 

### 10 **respect to Alex's comment, so it is true that** 

### 11 **California does have the standard, and it has** 

### 12 **multiple compliance pathways. It's not just as** 

### 13 **straightforward as "You must be electronic** 

### 14 **ballasts and you pass." That is actually not** 

### 15 **what I was thinking about. I was just thinking** 

### 16 **of individual projects that I had heard of that** 

### 17 **were using ceramic metal halides with electronic** 

### 18 **ballasts.** 

### 19 **So, and to be perfectly honest, I** 

### 20 **don't know the exact efficiencies of the** 

### 21 **ballasts in those projects. I just was curious** 

### 22 **about the technical feasibility of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 203**  **1 application.**  

### 2 **And then the other comment, with** 

### 3 **respect to I guess -- so my understanding is that** 

### 4 **the efficiency levels that DOE has based their** 

### 5 **analysis on are achievable by currently** 

### 6 **commercially available electronic ballasts.** 

### 7 **So if there are these commercially available** 

### 8 **electronic ballasts now being sold today,** 

### 9 **presumably they are being used in fixtures** 

### 10 **today, and, you know, so we're not talking** 

### 11 **about --** 

### 12 **PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible comment** 

### 13 **from an off mic location.)** 

### 14 **MR. YOUNG: Sure, sure, sure. In** 

### 15 **certain applications maybe. Not in every** 

### 16 **application, but -- so and I'm not a fixture** 

### 17 **manufacturer. I don't know every** 

### 18 **manufacturer -- excuse me, every fixture it is** 

### 19 **and isn't used in. But I guess, again, my** 

### 20 **understanding is that these are existing** 

### 21 **fixtures that they base their analysis on.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris, you're next.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 204**  **1 MR. HOLSTEIN: Just a comment on the**  

### 2 **commercially available electronic. I believe** 

### 3 **Matthew stated that there is not a commercially** 

### 4 **available 400-watt electronic ballast, which I** 

### 5 **believe that is correct. So there are** 

### 6 **commercially available what we consider low** 

### 7 **frequency, right, low frequency. And then** 

### 8 **there are commercially available products that** 

### 9 **are designed for an indoor use. So there is a** 

### 10 **difference.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's move** 

### 12 **on.** 

### 13 **MR. WALKER: So I haven't read Issue** 

### 14 **28, which is seeking comment on generally the** 

### 15 **appropriateness of the MSPs that are listed in** 

### 16 **the NOPR and the TSD.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: MSPs.** 

### 18 **MR. WALKER: The manufacturer** 

### 19 **selling price of the ballast and fixtures.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let me make a process** 

### 21 **note, or I should say a web-based note, that we** 

### 22 **have been on our end down here -- our web folks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 205**  **1 have been working to try and make sure that**  

### 2 **everybody who wanted to get on was getting on,** 

### 3 **and I think that -- I had hoped that we had** 

### 4 **resolved this issue. And right now Joe Hancock** 

### 5 **is the first person who has raised his hand and** 

### 6 **has a comment.** 

### 7 **Joe, unmute your phone and speak** 

### 8 **clearly.** 

### 9 **MR. HANCOCK: Hi. I'm sorry, I** 

### 10 **raised my hand a while ago, but I'm having some** 

### 11 **issues I guess.** 

### 12 **I'd like to go back if I may and talk** 

### 13 **about electronic ballasts and our view of** 

### 14 **electronic ballasts as a utility.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Sure.** 

### 16 **MR. HANCOCK: So just a little** 

### 17 **background, I'm with Florida Power and Light.** 

### 18 **Our span of control is about 850,000 lights** 

### 19 **within our service territory in the state of** 

### 20 **Florida. And we have a lot of misgivings about** 

### 21 **a regulation that would cause us to move to** 

### 22 **electronic ballasts for metal halide.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 206**  **1 Core and coil ballasts have a lot of**  

### 2 **inherent reliability to surge, sag, swell, even** 

### 3 **salt and such. And we have been testing** 

### 4 **electronic ballasts in our lab and in the field** 

### 5 **for the last three years, and there is a much** 

### 6 **lower level of reliability for the electronic** 

### 7 **ballasts, and we are very concerned about that** 

### 8 **basic reliability to surge.** 

### 9 **Also, a number of the manufacturers** 

### 10 **have stated that the electronic ballasts are** 

### 11 **designed to work on a three-wire grounded** 

### 12 **National Electric Code type system. And as an** 

### 13 **electric utility, we run a two-wire NESC system.** 

### 14 **So our grounding schema is not your normal indoor** 

### 15 **grounding schema.** 

### 16 **We are having difficulties with** 

### 17 **electronic drivers in these conditions and** 

### 18 **hearing about other utilities. Duke has had** 

### 19 **some issues, and I think National Grid has had** 

### 20 **some issues. We are very concerned about being** 

### 21 **forced into electronic drivers.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 207**  **1 Joe. Appreciate that comment.**  

### 2 **MR. HANCOCK: Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And so back,** 

### 4 **then, to Issue 28, MSPs.** 

### 5 **MR. WALKER: Yes. Keith.** 

### 6 **MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook from** 

### 7 **Philips. I think as we previously stated the 20** 

### 8 **percent number that you are showing I think is** 

### 9 **way understated. It is going to be much more** 

### 10 **than that when you consider pole changes as well** 

### 11 **as the fixture changes as well as the electronic** 

### 12 **ballast itself, making it adaptable for the** 

### 13 **outdoor applications in particular.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Other** 

### 15 **comments here? Yes, Mike.** 

### 16 **MR. STEVENS: Mike Stevens, Georgia** 

### 17 **Power. I mean, I was going to echo what Joe was** 

### 18 **saying and what you're saying. You know, I'm** 

### 19 **sitting here listening and realizing that** 

### 20 **everything I feel like we're talking about is** 

### 21 **going to drive the cost up substantially, right?** 

### 22 **Which means we are going to have to pass it on**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 208**  **1 to our end-use customers. And I'm having a hard**  

### 2 **time understanding what is the benefit. What** 

### 3 **are we going to benefit from doing that.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 5 **MR. STEVENS: Because we're talking** 

### 6 **about off-peak energy and reduction in that,** 

### 7 **so --** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: There's more of a** 

### 9 **description of the benefits coming in --** 

### 10 **MR. STEVENS: Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: -- subsequent** 

### 12 **slides.** 

### 13 **MR. WALKER: Okay. So this slide** 

### 14 **covers the scaling component. Once efficiency** 

### 15 **levels are established for each of the** 

### 16 **representative classes, DOE then develops a** 

### 17 **scaling relationship to apply those efficiency** 

### 18 **levels to the remaining classes. So this** 

### 19 **process involves comparison of lamps that** 

### 20 **differed only by the input voltage on which they** 

### 21 **are tested.** 

### 22 **So in comparing quad voltage**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 209**  **1 ballasts tested at the appropriate voltage to**  

### 2 **the dedicated 480-volt ballasts that have** 

### 3 **similar characteristics, the dedicated 480-volt** 

### 4 **ballasts were on average .6 percent less** 

### 5 **efficient. And so, therefore, DOE proposed** 

### 6 **using this .6 percent scaling factor to adjust** 

### 7 **the efficiency level equations for those** 

### 8 **non-representative classes. And we are seeking** 

### 9 **comment on that proposal.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 11 **MR. HOLSTEIN: This is Chris with** 

### 12 **Universal Lighting again. We think that the** 

### 13 **scaling factor in concept seems to be a viable** 

### 14 **concept, but it's not -- you can't use a .6** 

### 15 **percent across all wattages. When you get to** 

### 16 **the lower wattages, and we looked on the 480-volt** 

### 17 **class, you can get differences as high as 2.3 to** 

### 18 **2.5 percent.** 

### 19 **So at the higher wattages it might** 

### 20 **be close, and we don't know what the number is,** 

### 21 **we'd have to go out and test it. But we looked** 

### 22 **specifically at the lower wattage products, and**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 210**  **1 it's far greater than .6 percent gap between the**  

### 2 **two.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 4 **So those -- that comment, that detail in your** 

### 5 **written comments, will be very helpful to the** 

### 6 **Department. Thank you.** 

### 7 **Additional comments here on scaling** 

### 8 **factors?** 

### 9 **(No response.)** 

### 10 **Okay.** 

### 11 **MR. WALKER: So now we can move on** 

### 12 **to the trial standard level, which is a** 

### 13 **combination of efficiency levels that DOE would** 

### 14 **analyze for the impact of standards. So you** 

### 15 **take all of those efficiency levels that we have** 

### 16 **seen on previous slides and create five options** 

### 17 **that are considered as potential proposals. So** 

### 18 **just starting at the top and going down, I'm just** 

### 19 **going to describe each of them.** 

### 20 **TSL 5 is the most stringent and** 

### 21 **required max tech levels for every equipment** 

### 22 **class. Moving down to TSL 4, this selects the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 211**  **1 highest efficiency level for each equipment**  

### 2 **class that still has positive net present value,** 

### 3 **or NPV.** 

### 4 **TSL 3 selects the efficiency level** 

### 5 **that has the maximum positive NPV but requires** 

### 6 **at the same efficiency level as selected for** 

### 7 **indoor and outdoor equipment classes at a** 

### 8 **particular wattage. So you can't have a** 

### 9 **mismatch with the same wattage. TSL 2 selects** 

### 10 **the maximum technologically feasible magnetic** 

### 11 **ballast efficiency level for each equipment** 

### 12 **class, which, again, was EL2.** 

### 13 **And then, lastly, TSL 1 is the least** 

### 14 **stringent level and requires EL1 for all** 

### 15 **equipment classes as long as those have a** 

### 16 **positive NPV. And then you can see highlighted** 

### 17 **in gold here TSL 3 was what is proposed at this** 

### 18 **stage of the rulemaking.** 

### 19 **So then this slide kind of -- so this** 

### 20 **slide takes those TSL definitions and maps out** 

### 21 **which efficiency levels are paired up for each** 

### 22 **of those descriptions. Again, I guess I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 212**  **1 should -- I want to point out that the 500- to**  

### 2 **2,000-watt equipment classes have that design** 

### 3 **standard proposal that was going to -- would ban** 

### 4 **the use of probe-start ballasts and new metal** 

### 5 **halide lamp fixtures. Again, you can see TSL 3** 

### 6 **is the one proposed, and it shows the particular** 

### 7 **efficiency level selected for each equipment** 

### 8 **class.** 

### 9 **So at this point DOE is seeking** 

### 10 **comment on the appropriateness of the proposed** 

### 11 **TSLs, meaning these five selections that were** 

### 12 **considered in the analysis.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 15 **EEI. I appreciate the -- I'm going to call it** 

### 16 **the Rosetta Stones of TSLs versus ELs here** 

### 17 **especially. But looking back, basically,** 

### 18 **especially for TSL 2 is really EL2, and that's** 

### 19 **a max tech magnetic ballast which was modeled** 

### 20 **here, right, if I'm saying that correctly? A** 

### 21 **modeled max tech magnetic ballast that --** 

### 22 **MR. WALKER: You're correct.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 213**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: -- is not**  

### 2 **necessarily on the market yet. And then the EL4** 

### 3 **for the 100/150, that is a -- that is a max tech** 

### 4 **as well, as I look through the thing. That's** 

### 5 **a -- for those particular -- for the 100/150, as** 

### 6 **I was looking through, it looked like that was** 

### 7 **also a max tech for anything type of ballast.** 

### 8 **Let me just --** 

### 9 **MR. WALKER: That's right. EL4 is** 

### 10 **the most efficient level overall, and we can** 

### 11 **think of EL2 as being the most efficient magnetic** 

### 12 **ballast.** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right. So EL4 is** 

### 14 **also a max tech, but for anything in that product** 

### 15 **category.** 

### 16 **MR. WALKER: Correct.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. So, I mean,** 

### 18 **I think that's what -- you know, your -- it looks** 

### 19 **like your -- this level is really topping out at** 

### 20 **what's either modeled on the market or what is** 

### 21 **on the market, it seems like. Is that a fair** 

### 22 **characterization?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 214**  **1 MR. WALKER: Well, I mean, I**  

### 2 **wouldn't say -- not exactly. I mean, TSL 5 is** 

### 3 **the most efficient electronic ballast, and those** 

### 4 **are available on the market. The best** 

### 5 **description of TSL 3 is really what I've said** 

### 6 **before, which involves a lot of the economic** 

### 7 **results.** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.** 

### 9 **MR. WALKER: TSL 3 maximizes NPV for** 

### 10 **each equipment class and requires that indoor** 

### 11 **and outdoor classes have the same efficiency** 

### 12 **level selected.** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. WALKER: So we are going to get** 

### 15 **into the NPV results later.** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith, and then** 

### 18 **Chris.** 

### 19 **MR. KEITH COOK: I guess one concern** 

### 20 **I'd like to express is I don't believe that a** 

### 21 **model necessarily proves technological** 

### 22 **feasibility. So I don't see how that can be**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 215**  **1 chosen, then, as a TSL.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 3 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with the** 

### 4 **Universal Lighting. I think Keith kind of beats** 

### 5 **me to the punch. I'd like to just point out that** 

### 6 **your TSL 3, either it doesn't exist, it's** 

### 7 **modeled, based off of something, or it's -- we're** 

### 8 **going to electronic, which isn't going to work** 

### 9 **very well in that application. It seems like a** 

### 10 **fantastic time bomb of disaster to me. I mean,** 

### 11 **there is no -- there is nothing on here that even** 

### 12 **seems reasonable. I mean, it's all either** 

### 13 **modeled or pontificated. It makes no sense.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Joanna.** 

### 15 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. I'd just** 

### 16 **note that if I heard correctly what DOE said is** 

### 17 **that the model they used for the EL2, the kind** 

### 18 **of improved magnetic was based almost entirely** 

### 19 **on manufacturer input. So, you know, it was a** 

### 20 **model but based on, you know, significant --** 

### 21 **MR. KEITH COOK: Yes. It was all** 

### 22 **hearsay. I mean, it was one of these deals where**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 216**  **1 the guys came in during the manufacturing**  

### 2 **analysis and said, "Well, if you were to hold a** 

### 3 **footprint constant, about how much more** 

### 4 **efficiency would you get if you went to a** 

### 5 **high-grade silicon steel and copper wire?"** 

### 6 **No calculations were done, nobody** 

### 7 **built anything, nothing was tested, nothing was** 

### 8 **demonstrated. That is not a very good proof.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 10 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with** 

### 11 **Universal. You know, I'd like to see them build** 

### 12 **it. They modeled it, so they must think it's** 

### 13 **possible. Get yourself a manufacturing** 

### 14 **facility and a lab and put it together, send it** 

### 15 **to us, let us test it.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex.** 

### 17 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 18 **NEMA. I wanted to add -- it wasn't quite** 

### 19 **said -- remember our presentation regarding the** 

### 20 **ability of something modeled or even built in a** 

### 21 **lab to be run to full-scale production and series** 

### 22 **manufacture. A lot of other rulemakings draw**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 217**  **1 the higher technology or the higher levels from**  

### 2 **existing production, just that tend to be the** 

### 3 **higher performing variants. And so I would echo** 

### 4 **the inherent hazards in modeling something** 

### 5 **without proving that it can be built and then be** 

### 6 **built by the thousands.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mark, keep going.** 

### 8 **MR. DUFFY: While I certainly agree** 

### 9 **with those comments, earlier in the meeting I** 

### 10 **asked the question, did the model include the** 

### 11 **thermal parameters that are necessary, and I got** 

### 12 **the answer back very clearly, no, it was not.** 

### 13 **So the model itself has a flaw that** 

### 14 **it does not include the thermal characteristics** 

### 15 **of the luminaire and the boundary conditions. I** 

### 16 **know that I'm speaking technically here, but the** 

### 17 **reality is there are technical flaws, technical** 

### 18 **aspects of the model, that are insufficient in** 

### 19 **order to even think about building that first** 

### 20 **prototype and testing it to see if it actually** 

### 21 **functions the way the model would say it does.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 218**  **1 MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with**  

### 2 **NEEA. I guess this is kind of a question for the** 

### 3 **manufacturers. But if the DOE contractors -- I** 

### 4 **think I heard from Keith that they didn't do a** 

### 5 **great job, perhaps, in his viewpoint of maybe** 

### 6 **doing an analysis of what those technology -- or** 

### 7 **technological feasibility of the system, if they** 

### 8 **were to come back and spend more time with** 

### 9 **someone like Chris at Universal Lighting, or** 

### 10 **some others, do you feel like that would help in** 

### 11 **help setting these levels, or what do you see as** 

### 12 **the solution? Because there is the ability to** 

### 13 **have something more efficient than -- well, I** 

### 14 **guess that's a question, too. Is there an** 

### 15 **ability to have something more efficient than** 

### 16 **what's out there in EL2 or do you perceive that** 

### 17 **as totally impossible?** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Chris.** 

### 19 **MR. HOLSTEIN: Chris with** 

### 20 **Universal. I think the only way that I could** 

### 21 **respond to that is, you know, when these meetings** 

### 22 **and things happen, and we sit through them, these**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 219**  **1 are -- it's kind of like we sit down at the table**  

### 2 **and like, you know, "Hey, we're going to make** 

### 3 **fish tonight. What do you think I should add to** 

### 4 **it?" Right?** 

### 5 **But until you sit down and actually** 

### 6 **go to a lab with your double E's and with your** 

### 7 **techs, and you try to put something together, you** 

### 8 **know, all it is is conversation. I mean, the** 

### 9 **idea would be that, you know, they would have** 

### 10 **some way to validate what they have, right? And** 

### 11 **I don't see that validation.** 

### 12 **We could sit down and try to do that,** 

### 13 **but it's not going to be something you can do in** 

### 14 **two or three weeks. And then I go back to** 

### 15 **the -- you know, and now it has been brought up** 

### 16 **again, I've got a little -- you know, a little** 

### 17 **excited the last time I spoke, but I've calmed** 

### 18 **down again.** 

### 19 **The series manufacturing piece is a** 

### 20 **big issue. I mean, we stated it in our beginning** 

### 21 **presentation, that, you know, when you sit in a** 

### 22 **lab environment and you pick the absolute best**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 220**  **1 of everything, and you build it by hand, you get**  

### 2 **a completely different result than when you are** 

### 3 **building, you know, a couple hundred of these** 

### 4 **things every 15 minutes in series or mass** 

### 5 **production. And you are bringing in big batches** 

### 6 **of material that can vary across the board, so** 

### 7 **there is a big difference between** 

### 8 **modeled -- modeled can be one thing, a lab can** 

### 9 **be another thing, and what is actually feasibly** 

### 10 **possible in a manufacturing facility for this** 

### 11 **kind of product is something totally different.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith?** 

### 13 **MR. KEITH COOK: I've got a** 

### 14 **real-world example of where this has happened.** 

### 15 **A number of years ago, I used to be in charge of** 

### 16 **product development at our ballast division.** 

### 17 **And we went through and came up with a new design** 

### 18 **for a lamination, which was a significant cost** 

### 19 **reduction. And the objective of the project was** 

### 20 **to be able to make this change without having to** 

### 21 **affect any luminaires.** 

### 22 **And we worked and worked and worked**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 221**  **1 on doing that, and we were 90 percent successful.**  

### 2 **But there are some cases where you just can't do** 

### 3 **it, because you are having to deal with** 

### 4 **incremental wire turns, not a half a wire, not** 

### 5 **a full or three-quarters of a turn, it's a full** 

### 6 **turn. You are dealing with incremental** 

### 7 **laminations, not a half a lam, not a quarter-lam,** 

### 8 **a full lamination. And so you end up with** 

### 9 **incremental steps that you have to work with.** 

### 10 **So you can go through and ratio these** 

### 11 **things as much as you want, but when it comes to** 

### 12 **real world you have to live with physical** 

### 13 **properties that you have no control over that** 

### 14 **causes change. And so, therefore, to believe** 

### 15 **that we can just do this thing and end up with** 

### 16 **more efficiency without creating any change** 

### 17 **won't work.** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Let's move** 

### 19 **on.** 

### 20 **MR. WALKER: That brings me to the** 

### 21 **end of my slides. I will hand it over to Michael** 

### 22 **Myer.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 222**  **1 MR. MYER: Good afternoon. I'm**  

### 2 **Michael Myer. I'm with Pacific Northwest** 

### 3 **National Laboratory. I'll be presenting a** 

### 4 **couple of different things today. First up,** 

### 5 **I'll be discussing energy use characterization** 

### 6 **and the markups analysis.** 

### 7 **So we have seen this slide a couple** 

### 8 **of times. This is the NOPR stage breakout. We** 

### 9 **just discussed the engineering analysis. That** 

### 10 **feeds into both the markups analysis as well as** 

### 11 **the energy use analysis. Both of those are data** 

### 12 **inputs for the life-cycle cost and payback** 

### 13 **period analysis. So this just shows where we're** 

### 14 **going.** 

### 15 **The energy use analysis is a** 

### 16 **somewhat straightforward process. You take the** 

### 17 **outputs of the engineering analysis, so these** 

### 18 **are wattage values based on whatever the** 

### 19 **efficiency for that EL is. We then looked at the** 

### 20 **Lighting Market Characterization -- 2010 -- for** 

### 21 **the use of metal halide technologies, what are** 

### 22 **the operating hours, building types, and so on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 223**  **1 Came up with an annual average hours**  

### 2 **for each, and you multiply the two products** 

### 3 **together and you get a representative equipment** 

### 4 **class. So you'll see the 70 watt. That's a** 

### 5 **representative, and that's the annual energy use** 

### 6 **in kilowatt hours.** 

### 7 **Yes.** 

### 8 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 9 **Edison Electric Institute. So I'm just looking** 

### 10 **at the 1,000-watt lamp, and I'm just** 

### 11 **assuming -- I just assumed 10 percent more for** 

### 12 **the ballast. Please forgive me, I'm just doing** 

### 13 **this off the top of my head.** 

### 14 **So in that case, if you assumed 1,100** 

### 15 **watts for that fixture, that 1,000-watt fixture,** 

### 16 **you are assuming 6,836 hours of use per year for** 

### 17 **the 1,000-watt fixture?** 

### 18 **MR. MYER: Thanks for the** 

### 19 **clarification question. The first number on** 

### 20 **the left is the indoor number, and then the --** 

### 21 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Right.** 

### 22 **MR. MYER: -- second number on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 224**  **1 right is -- yes. So we discussed earlier that**  

### 2 **some indoor fixtures -- Ms. Cheryl English** 

### 3 **commented that these are used in like stamping** 

### 4 **plants. So this is an interior industrial** 

### 5 **application that is probably operating 16 hours** 

### 6 **a day, or we can get into the different** 

### 7 **permutations of how many days per week. But** 

### 8 **that is an indoor application operating** 

### 9 **somewhere along those lines.** 

### 10 **The number on the right side** 

### 11 **is -- yes, would be the exterior. And your math,** 

### 12 **basically, of 1,100 is pretty close for that** 

### 13 **wattage category. Yes, sir.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. MYER: Okay. Thank you. I** 

### 16 **will be moving on to the markups analysis. So** 

### 17 **for the markups analysis we came up with three** 

### 18 **different distribution channels. This was some** 

### 19 **input we received after the preliminary** 

### 20 **analysis. The idea is that you have a** 

### 21 **manufacturer markup selling price, the MSP, and** 

### 22 **then you have three different channels -- A, B,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 225**  **1 and C.**  

### 2 **A goes from manufacturer to a** 

### 3 **wholesaler, to then a contractor, to then sales** 

### 4 **decks. Distribution Channel B is more where it** 

### 5 **is going directly from the manufacturer to a** 

### 6 **contractor, and then you have the sales tax.** 

### 7 **And then, finally, C is direct sales, different** 

### 8 **scenarios. Maybe a utility or a city might be** 

### 9 **experiencing something like that.** 

### 10 **So depending on, if it's an indoor** 

### 11 **fixture, we assumed all indoor fixtures went** 

### 12 **through Channel A. And for outdoor fixtures we** 

### 13 **assumed a variety of distribution of whether or** 

### 14 **not it was A, B, or C.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments/questions** 

### 16 **on what you see here?** 

### 17 **(No response.)** 

### 18 **Okay.** 

### 19 **MR. MYER: At this time, I'm going** 

### 20 **to pause -- oh.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl English.** 

### 22 **MR. MYER: Ms. English is going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 226**  **1 ask a question.**  

### 2 **MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English,** 

### 3 **Acuity Brands. I will just comment that of the** 

### 4 **models here, of the supply chain, they are very** 

### 5 **commercial-focused and the expanded wattages on** 

### 6 **the low range do include residential, which is** 

### 7 **a very different channel and very different** 

### 8 **markups.** 

### 9 **It is similar to the Channel A, but** 

### 10 **I think the markups in the residential channel** 

### 11 **will be quite different than what you find in** 

### 12 **commercial applications. So you want to go back** 

### 13 **and take a look at that.** 

### 14 **MR. MYER: Thank you. This is the** 

### 15 **second time residential has come up, and I'd just** 

### 16 **like to go back to the Lighting Market** 

### 17 **Characterization, since that was a reference** 

### 18 **brought up as well.** 

### 19 **Typically, metal halide is a very** 

### 20 **low percentage of use in residential** 

### 21 **applications. I mean, one percent or less of** 

### 22 **all metal halide usage. Is that a fair**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 227**  **1 assumption to use, or would you have a better**  

### 2 **recommendation?** 

### 3 **MS. ENGLISH: I don't know off the** 

### 4 **top of my head. It is low relative to the entire** 

### 5 **market, but it is -- has been an opportunity for** 

### 6 **the residential marketplace to promote a more** 

### 7 **efficient solution than halogen or compact** 

### 8 **fluorescent solutions.** 

### 9 **So, obviously, to reiterate, the** 

### 10 **concern on the levels is that if we drastically** 

### 11 **increase the price on those products the** 

### 12 **market -- in the residential market, it is going** 

### 13 **to snap back and start using more energy through** 

### 14 **less efficient fixtures. But I do think that** 

### 15 **the percentage is relatively low relative to the** 

### 16 **entire metal halide marketplace.** 

### 17 **MR. MYER: May I ask one follow up?** 

### 18 **So if we say -- it should be low wattage, all** 

### 19 **under 150, or would it be extremely low wattage,** 

### 20 **under 50 watts, do you think would be more common** 

### 21 **for metal halide, residential?** 

### 22 **MS. ENGLISH: So, you know, not an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 228**  **1 answer that I would hold to. We can respond to**  

### 2 **it in written comment. But there are certainly** 

### 3 **100 watt and below metal halides that are sold** 

### 4 **through residential channels. I'm not sure on** 

### 5 **150 watt, and others may have residential** 

### 6 **products that they sell at 150 watt. Most of** 

### 7 **them are 100 watt and below.** 

### 8 **MR. MYER: Thank you very much.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. MYER: At this time, I am** 

### 11 **introducing my colleague, Scott Morris, who will** 

### 12 **discuss life-cycle costs and payback analysis.** 

### 13 **MR. MORRIS: Good afternoon. As** 

### 14 **Michael mentioned just barely, the markups** 

### 15 **analysis and the energy use analysis go hand in** 

### 16 **hand, work hand in hand, to inform the life-cycle** 

### 17 **cost and payback period analysis.** 

### 18 **This is the only slide where we will** 

### 19 **show results from the LCC and payback period** 

### 20 **analysis. Note that all efficiency levels** 

### 21 **required by TSL 3 can be achieved with magnetic** 

### 22 **ballast technology, except for the 150-watt**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 229**  **1 equipment class, which requires electronic**  

### 2 **ballast technology.** 

### 3 **I'll further note that life-cycle** 

### 4 **cost savings are positive for all of the** 

### 5 **equipment classes, and the majority of consumers** 

### 6 **or customers experience a net benefit from the** 

### 7 **proposed TSL.** 

### 8 **Also, a further note from our** 

### 9 **conversations earlier this morning: There was a** 

### 10 **comment made that the lifetime of a ballast, for** 

### 11 **example, is only 10 years. So how can we have** 

### 12 **cost effective payback periods greater than the** 

### 13 **lifetime of a ballast? Consider that these** 

### 14 **results are based on the lifetime of a fixture,** 

### 15 **which have been assumed to be 20 years for an** 

### 16 **indoor fixture, 25 years for an outdoor fixture.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 18 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 19 **EEI. I have several comments, so I hope** 

### 20 **everybody will indulge me as I go through some** 

### 21 **of these. I know that the title is "Fixture,"** 

### 22 **but what's really happening is -- really, what**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 230**  **1 is being affected is the ballast.**  

### 2 **If the ballast for an outdoor** 

### 3 **fixture -- I'll say a utility fixture -- is going** 

### 4 **to go out in 10 years, and the payback is 14** 

### 5 **years. If I have to replace a ballast, I don't** 

### 6 **care about the fixture right now. I care about** 

### 7 **the ballast. And when you get right down to it,** 

### 8 **it's the ballast that is having to be replaced,** 

### 9 **not the fixture. So I find it a little bit** 

### 10 **disconcerting that you are saying, "Well, it's** 

### 11 **a fixture analysis, but we are only reflecting** 

### 12 **the ballast as that affects the fixture, and if** 

### 13 **the ballast life is shorter than the payback,** 

### 14 **well, that's just too bad."** 

### 15 **That's the sense I'm getting, and** 

### 16 **I'm very, very concerned about that kind of** 

### 17 **philosophy here when it shows, based on the TSD,** 

### 18 **that the ballast lifetime is 40,000 to 50,000** 

### 19 **hours. That's the numbers that I was seeing in** 

### 20 **the technical support document. That's it.** 

### 21 **That's the life based on however many hours per** 

### 22 **year.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 231**  **1 So I am concerned because for end**  

### 2 **users, you know, if you have to replace a** 

### 3 **ballast, it's 10, 11 years, which is shorter than** 

### 4 **the median payback period as shown in the** 

### 5 **analysis.** 

### 6 **MR. KEITH COOK: Yes. I guess if we** 

### 7 **ask Steve's question, though, is, was a** 

### 8 **replacement ballast included in this cost** 

### 9 **analysis?** 

### 10 **MR. MORRIS: Yes.** 

### 11 **MR. KEITH COOK: And getting a** 

### 12 **forklift out there in case of high bay and all** 

### 13 **of the associated costs with that, for an outdoor** 

### 14 **application?** 

### 15 **MR. MORRIS: That's correct,** 

### 16 **because it --** 

### 17 **MR. HOWLEY: I mean, the cost** 

### 18 **of -- this is Joe Howley from GE. The cost of** 

### 19 **replacing an outdoor fixture on a pole could be** 

### 20 **as high as $400, or I've seen higher prices, but** 

### 21 **you could ask the utilities, but it's extremely** 

### 22 **expensive. We also believe that this did not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 232**  **1 take into account the extra cost of the fixtures,**  

### 2 **which would have to be bigger, perhaps extra** 

### 3 **poles, and replacement of ballasts that are very** 

### 4 **difficult to reach, and very high labor rates.** 

### 5 **So we do not even believe these** 

### 6 **paybacks are achievable. They are going to be** 

### 7 **far greater than even the paybacks shown here.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe Hancock has** 

### 9 **raised his hand. Joe, you sounded good the last** 

### 10 **time you spoke. Speak clearly.** 

### 11 **MR. HANCOCK: Thank you. On these** 

### 12 **payback costs, I'm going to go back to the same** 

### 13 **topic I had before. The electronic drivers are** 

### 14 **very sensitive to surge and voltage swell. We** 

### 15 **have found that the surge protection inside the** 

### 16 **driver is woefully inadequate.** 

### 17 **And so you either have to spend** 

### 18 **significant money to put an external surge** 

### 19 **protection in or you have to be ready to replace** 

### 20 **a lot of electronic drivers in a very short** 

### 21 **period of time. In our particular service** 

### 22 **territory, we get approximately one lightning**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 233**  **1 strike per square kilometer of land per month**  

### 2 **throughout the year. And it just so happens** 

### 3 **that a lighting strike can affect up to one** 

### 4 **square kilometer of land. That is a lot of** 

### 5 **equipment that is being exposed.** 

### 6 **What kind of consideration is done** 

### 7 **in the cost analysis for surge protection?** 

### 8 **MR. MORRIS: In the LCC analysis,** 

### 9 **those costs are passed through from the** 

### 10 **engineering analysis. So there is no** 

### 11 **additional cost per se in the LCC analysis that** 

### 12 **MR. HANCOCK: And for us we would** 

### 13 **need to spec having surge protection. Core and** 

### 14 **coil, you can put a 10,000-volt surge across it** 

### 15 **and that's part of the standard, and have** 

### 16 **absolutely no effect at all. But a 10,000-volt** 

### 17 **surge will destroy electronic driver. I would** 

### 18 **think that these things, for us out of the box,** 

### 19 **they need to perform at least as well as core and** 

### 20 **coil does or be modified to be able to handle the** 

### 21 **field conditions.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: We have an**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 234**  **1 additional comment from Matthew.**  

### 2 **MR. WALKER: Yes. This is Matthew** 

### 3 **Walker from Navigant. The analysis included an** 

### 4 **approximately $20 production cost increase** 

### 5 **associated with applying an external transient** 

### 6 **protection device to an electronic ballast. So** 

### 7 **there was a price at or associated with that** 

### 8 **issue. We'd be curious if you have specific** 

### 9 **feedback on that number.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. And** 

### 11 **$20 -- say it again. It was for an** 

### 12 **external -- what?** 

### 13 **MR. WALKER: It was a $20 cost adder** 

### 14 **for external transient protection for an** 

### 15 **electronic ballast.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: I'm going to pursue** 

### 17 **this for a little bit here. Chacko first, and** 

### 18 **then I'm coming to John.** 

### 19 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips.** 

### 20 **I think that $20 surge protector will not protect** 

### 21 **that ballast or driver for 10 kV.** 

### 22 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 235**  **1 MR. OOMMEN: I'll make that**  

### 2 **statement.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. John.** 

### 4 **MR. GREEN: John Green, Eaton** 

### 5 **Cooper Lighting. I was wondering what life** 

### 6 **expectancy you put on the surge suppression** 

### 7 **device, because once you experience a couple of** 

### 8 **lightning strikes that device essentially** 

### 9 **self-sacrifices and has to be replaced.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 11 **Tom Eckman.** 

### 12 **MR. ECKMAN: Yes, I just want to** 

### 13 **cycle back to the maintenance cost of replacing** 

### 14 **the ballast. You can correct me, but my** 

### 15 **presumption is that's an incremental cost** 

### 16 **ballast replacement, because there was a ballast** 

### 17 **there to begin with with the baseline fixture.** 

### 18 **So if you've got to bring a truck or a lift or** 

### 19 **something out to replace it, it is the** 

### 20 **incremental cost of doing that if it's different** 

### 21 **than the baseline case. Is that correct?** 

### 22 **MR. MORRIS: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 236**  **1 MR. ECKMAN: So if the lifetime is**  

### 2 **shorter, you've got to do it more often, or if** 

### 3 **it's heavier, you've got to deal with a different** 

### 4 **lift or something like that. But that's how it** 

### 5 **is priced out.** 

### 6 **MR. MORRIS: That's correct.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike. I'm coming** 

### 8 **back to you, Steve.** 

### 9 **MR. STEVENS: Yes. My question is,** 

### 10 **is there any detail that we can see of these** 

### 11 **calculations and the assumptions that were made?** 

### 12 **I mean, all of these questions I think are asking** 

### 13 **the same thing, like, what's the cost of energy** 

### 14 **that was used? What is the maintenance cost** 

### 15 **that was used?** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer.** 

### 17 **MR. STEVENS: Is that available?** 

### 18 **MR. MYER: Michael Myer, Pacific** 

### 19 **Northwest National Laboratory. Well, there's** 

### 20 **two data points. In addition to the NOPR, there** 

### 21 **is a technical support document which has been** 

### 22 **referenced where we do provide a fair amount of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 237**  **1 data and values, as well as there is models,**  

### 2 **electronic ones, that are based on -- or that in** 

### 3 **Microsoft Excel that are also in the record, and** 

### 4 **so you can really walk through them.** 

### 5 **If you want to look at the 30-year** 

### 6 **projections of electricity, those are in there.** 

### 7 **You know, all the inputs are in one place,** 

### 8 **usually in both, but for the most part at least** 

### 9 **one place for sure.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. So can we** 

### 11 **comment to that detail? Okay.** 

### 12 **Michael, go ahead.** 

### 13 **MR. MYER: I do have a question** 

### 14 **regarding the gentleman from Cooper about the** 

### 15 **life of surge protection. So if you could, in** 

### 16 **your comments, provide more background on how** 

### 17 **many times it can be struck before it is done** 

### 18 **being sacrificed, or any other type of failure** 

### 19 **distributions that we should consider, and what** 

### 20 **is the typical rating you use in your** 

### 21 **calculations. Our inputs are as good as yours.** 

### 22 **Our inputs are only better when you provide more**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 238**  **1 data. Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 3 **Boesenberg, NEMA. I have taken a note for that.** 

### 4 **We will include that in our comments.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you, Alex.** 

### 6 **Louis.** 

### 7 **MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with** 

### 8 **NEEA.** 

### 9 **MR. BROOKMAN: Pardon me, Louis. I** 

### 10 **want to finish up with the industry comments.** 

### 11 **MR. STARR: Okay.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: So let's let Doug go** 

### 13 **first, and then I'll come back to you.** 

### 14 **MR. YATES: Thank you. Doug Yates,** 

### 15 **Musco. I just, again, want to speak** 

### 16 **specifically to the above 1,000 watt. In the** 

### 17 **savings here it shows either a two-year or a** 

### 18 **three-year payback whether you use an indoor or** 

### 19 **outdoor. And that is based upon 4- to 7,000** 

### 20 **hours of usage, whatever you are looking at.** 

### 21 **We went through and did a similar** 

### 22 **payback analysis using the DOE information.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 239**  **1 When we look at sports lighting, again, back to**  

### 2 **its only, in DOE's world, 350 hours a year, and** 

### 3 **using that number -- we had to make some** 

### 4 **assumptions because, as I've stated here or** 

### 5 **we've stated earlier, there are no pulse-start** 

### 6 **lamps or ballasts available. So we had to do** 

### 7 **scaling as well, like you did. So we've already** 

### 8 **covered that topic.** 

### 9 **When we did that, using the 350** 

### 10 **hours, it took the payback out to almost 31** 

### 11 **years. And so, you know, you've already** 

### 12 **commented that the life of the system is 25. So** 

### 13 **that doesn't make sense.** 

### 14 **Now, we also have several hundred** 

### 15 **thousand fixtures that we monitor and control** 

### 16 **with our controlling system, and we have data** 

### 17 **that we will provide in our written comments that** 

### 18 **even that 350 hours is high. We have very good** 

### 19 **statistics that says it's more like 280 hours a** 

### 20 **year on 1,500-watt systems, so that drives it out** 

### 21 **to almost 40 years for the payback.** 

### 22 **So, again, I just want to state that**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 240**  **1 above 1,000 watts, for another set of reasons,**  

### 2 **just does not seem to apply for what we're doing** 

### 3 **here.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Louis.** 

### 5 **MR. YATES: Thank you.** 

### 6 **MR. STARR: Just to follow up, I** 

### 7 **know that DOE had used $20 for the transient** 

### 8 **suppression, or I guess it's transient** 

### 9 **multi-suppression device for the thing, and I** 

### 10 **guess Philips mentioned that $20 didn't seem** 

### 11 **like a reasonable number. Do you have a** 

### 12 **reasonable number, or is there --** 

### 13 **MR. OOMMEN: It may be more like** 

### 14 **$50.** 

### 15 **MR. STARR: Fifty, okay.** 

### 16 **MR. OOMMEN: I mean, you know,** 

### 17 **because it talks about --** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Start from the** 

### 19 **beginning. More like how many dollars?** 

### 20 **MR. OOMMEN: More like $50.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. OOMMEN: Yes.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 241**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: This is Chacko**  

### 2 **speaking. Keep going.** 

### 3 **MR. OOMMEN: And also, something** 

### 4 **that you had realized, that if you really want** 

### 5 **a 10 kV pulse rating, lightning strike rating,** 

### 6 **we don't have such a device right now. Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Back to Steve** 

### 8 **Rosenstock, who has some additional comments.** 

### 9 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Yes. I'm going to** 

### 10 **go to a new comment here about the life-cycle** 

### 11 **cost analysis. The first one -- well, someone** 

### 12 **else can talk about the 150 watt with EL4, but** 

### 13 **I want to focus on the -- the subgroup analysis,** 

### 14 **and I'm just going to take one example.** 

### 15 **Table VI, 21, which is the 250-watt** 

### 16 **metal halide fixtures outdoor, LCC and payback** 

### 17 **results. Looking at these results as shown, it** 

### 18 **is broken out for utilities, transportation** 

### 19 **facility owners, and warehouse owners. And the** 

### 20 **reason I am concerned, it basically shows you're** 

### 21 **using the same technology, the same hours, same** 

### 22 **average savings, same median payback, same**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 242**  **1 customers with net costs and net benefits.**  

### 2 **There is an issue here, and the issue** 

### 3 **is this analysis assumes that the utilities and** 

### 4 **facility owners and the warehouse owners will be** 

### 5 **paying the exact same cost of electricity.** 

### 6 **That's never the case.** 

### 7 **The utility, for the outdoor** 

### 8 **fixtures and indoor fixtures, the rate per** 

### 9 **kilowatt hour is always going to be less. They** 

### 10 **are paying a wholesale rate. The other** 

### 11 **customers are paying the retail rate.** 

### 12 **Now, granted, most of these,** 

### 13 **especially with the outdoors, they are on at** 

### 14 **night and time-use rates are going to be lower.** 

### 15 **But, still, the utility costs are going to be** 

### 16 **probably anywhere from 30 to 60 percent lower** 

### 17 **than what the facility owners, the warehouse** 

### 18 **owners, are going to pay for the electricity.** 

### 19 **Therefore, the median payback** 

### 20 **period is not going to be 14 years. It is** 

### 21 **probably going to be more like 20 or 25 years for** 

### 22 **the utilities owning these type of light**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 243**  **1 fixtures.**  

### 2 **I am going to file comments to this,** 

### 3 **but, again, I think it's very significant in** 

### 4 **terms of subgroup analysis. It's a very** 

### 5 **significant change that has to be made to do the** 

### 6 **proper subgroup analysis.** 

### 7 **Thank you very much.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Thank** 

### 9 **you. That's useful.** 

### 10 **Now, I think -- Joanna?** 

### 11 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Just a** 

### 12 **couple of questions related to some of the LCC** 

### 13 **results. Could you explain why the analysis** 

### 14 **seems to show that electronic ballasts, or the** 

### 15 **EL3 and 4 associated with electronic levels, are** 

### 16 **more cost effective for outdoor applications** 

### 17 **than for indoor applications?** 

### 18 **MR. MORRIS: Yes. It's a** 

### 19 **combination of operating hours, markups, which** 

### 20 **are different for indoor versus outdoor** 

### 21 **fixtures, component lifetimes, and electricity** 

### 22 **prices and the electricity price trend.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 244**  **1 The electricity prices and the price**  

### 2 **trends, that's kind of the biggest player in this** 

### 3 **equation. Outdoor fixtures have a lower** 

### 4 **electricity price than the indoor fixtures, and** 

### 5 **that's because outdoor fixtures use only outdoor** 

### 6 **sector electricity prices, whereas indoor** 

### 7 **fixtures use a combination of industrial and** 

### 8 **commercial sector electricity prices.** 

### 9 **MS. MAUER: This is Joanna Mauer** 

### 10 **again. So I understand I think what you're** 

### 11 **saying about why outdoor electricity prices are** 

### 12 **lower, but wouldn't that suggest that the** 

### 13 **savings are lower --** 

### 14 **MR. MORRIS: Less than, yes.** 

### 15 **MS. MAUER: -- for outdoor** 

### 16 **applications?** 

### 17 **Well, if I could just point out kind** 

### 18 **of one other place where we had a question. In** 

### 19 **looking at the LCC tables and the technical** 

### 20 **support document, again, so looking at wattage** 

### 21 **levels for which DOE evaluated electronic** 

### 22 **ballasts, when you go from EL2 to EL3, it looks**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 245**  **1 like for indoor fixtures the discounted**  

### 2 **operating cost increases going from EL2 to EL3,** 

### 3 **while for outdoor fixtures the discounted** 

### 4 **operating cost decreases as we would kind of** 

### 5 **generally expect going from EL2 to EL3. And I** 

### 6 **was wondering if you have an explanation for kind** 

### 7 **of why there is a difference between indoor and** 

### 8 **outdoor fixtures.** 

### 9 **MR. MORRIS: This is slightly off** 

### 10 **the cuff, but consider that the difference** 

### 11 **between EL2 and EL3 is the difference between** 

### 12 **magnetic and electronic ballasts. Electronic** 

### 13 **ballasts have a shorter lifetime, a shorter** 

### 14 **assumed lifetime, than magnetic ballasts. And** 

### 15 **because of the assumptions about operating** 

### 16 **hours, which I guess indirectly or directly** 

### 17 **affects how long a magnetic or electronic** 

### 18 **ballast will last for.** 

### 19 **There are some kind of unique** 

### 20 **characteristics when you dive into the depths of** 

### 21 **the LCC model where you end up having to replace** 

### 22 **an additional electronic ballast during the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 246**  **1 lifetime of a given fixture or you reach kind of**  

### 2 **a breaking point where you will have to install** 

### 3 **another magnetic ballast during that same** 

### 4 **lifetime.** 

### 5 **So I can't give you a good answer** 

### 6 **right now, but there's a series of complex** 

### 7 **interactions deep in the model that create these** 

### 8 **behaviors.** 

### 9 **MS. MAUER: Okay. This is Joanna** 

### 10 **again. I can go back and look, but I thought the** 

### 11 **operating hours were pretty similar for indoor** 

### 12 **and outdoor fixtures. So I wasn't --** 

### 13 **MR. MORRIS: They are pretty close.** 

### 14 **MS. MAUER: It didn't seem like that** 

### 15 **was kind of a big driver in the outcome.** 

### 16 **MR. MORRIS: Indoor -- for all of** 

### 17 **the equipment classes less than the 1,000-watt** 

### 18 **equipment class, the indoor operating hours are** 

### 19 **less -- about 200 hours, 300 hours, less than the** 

### 20 **operating hours in the outdoor sector --** 

### 21 **MS. MAUER: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. MORRIS: -- for outdoor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 247**  **1 fixtures.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Let's go to final** 

### 3 **comments on this life-cycle cost table here.** 

### 4 **Additional thoughts, comments? Matthew?** 

### 5 **MR. WALKER: Yes. I just needed to** 

### 6 **ask one clarification question for what you had** 

### 7 **said from Philips on the transient protection** 

### 8 **device. You had estimated a $50 price. Would** 

### 9 **that be the price that you pay for the device?** 

### 10 **And then I think I heard you mention at the end** 

### 11 **that that device wouldn't even have a 10 kV** 

### 12 **protection rating.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Please get the** 

### 14 **microphone.** 

### 15 **MR. OOMMEN: Chacko from Philips.** 

### 16 **Yes, You know, right now we are trying to compare** 

### 17 **magnetic ballasts with electronic ballasts with** 

### 18 **additional protection. The magnetic ballast,** 

### 19 **like somebody said before, it's inherently** 

### 20 **protected at least maybe for several strikes for** 

### 21 **10 kV applications. Okay?** 

### 22 **For electronics, you had to use**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 248**  **1 built-in or you had to have additional networks**  

### 2 **to do so. And even there the failure of the MOVs** 

### 3 **are -- it just opens up after a couple of shots.** 

### 4 **So there the protection is gone after two times.** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe.** 

### 6 **MR. HOWLEY: So for the analysis you** 

### 7 **have to figure replacing that much more often** 

### 8 **than you would with electromagnetic. That's** 

### 9 **not factored into the life cycle. Since these** 

### 10 **are outdoors, and a lot of them are high up on** 

### 11 **poles, you have to figure, what will it cost for** 

### 12 **a utility -- and the utilities haven't commented** 

### 13 **on this, but I wish someone would.** 

### 14 **What does it cost to send a truck** 

### 15 **out, send one or two guys out there, to replace** 

### 16 **something high up in a fixture? And this is not** 

### 17 **a trivial cost, I imagine. And this is not** 

### 18 **figured into the life-cycle analysis either.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mike, go ahead.** 

### 20 **MR. STEVENS: I mean, obviously,** 

### 21 **Joe, it varies utility to utility. But in our** 

### 22 **case, it would be, you know, $125, $150, just to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 249**  **1 send the trucks out.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: To replace a --** 

### 3 **MR. STEVENS: Yes, this is just** 

### 4 **sending the manpower out, the labor out. And** 

### 5 **then, obviously, buying the device would be** 

### 6 **extra.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. MEYER: Mike Myer. When you** 

### 9 **say "manpower," you --** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael, you're not** 

### 11 **on. Leave that thing on, okay?** 

### 12 **MR. MEYER: I'm trying.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks.** 

### 14 **MR. MEYER: Michael Myer, Pacific** 

### 15 **Northwest National Laboratory. The gentleman** 

### 16 **from Georgia Power, you said -- I'm** 

### 17 **paraphrasing -- $100 to $150, or give or take.** 

### 18 **And Mr. Howley from GE keeps saying equipment.** 

### 19 **Is that -- when you say "manpower," is that just** 

### 20 **one or two persons, or is that trucks, all-in** 

### 21 **inclusive estimate, trucks, flaggers,** 

### 22 **everything? I mean, that's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 250**  **1 ultimately -- because we do actually include**  

### 2 **some equipment costs.** 

### 3 **As Mr. Howley has suggested, there** 

### 4 **is actually some equipment rental, and we do vary** 

### 5 **it by -- labor costs do go up as the wattage** 

### 6 **increases. Understandably, it costs more to** 

### 7 **replace 1,000 watts than a 75-watt because you** 

### 8 **have to hire a truck, et cetera. But I would** 

### 9 **love to get your breakdown of the numbers, you** 

### 10 **know, whether you do it now or in written** 

### 11 **comments.** 

### 12 **But what breaks down -- and also** 

### 13 **percentages, not absolutes, but if we can scale** 

### 14 **it up and say, "Okay. Well, half that cost is** 

### 15 **really the equipment, and half of it is labor,"** 

### 16 **or whatever -- vice versa. If you could** 

### 17 **elaborate on that, that would be super helpful.** 

### 18 **MR. STEVENS: Okay. I'd be glad** 

### 19 **to. Off the top of my head, I don't know the** 

### 20 **answers. When I was answering the 150, I was** 

### 21 **referring to, you know, the two people on the** 

### 22 **truck and the truck itself. Okay? But I was**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 251**  **1 not including whatever we had to buy, if it was**  

### 2 **a surge protection device or if it was a lighting** 

### 3 **fixture or whatever. I wasn't including the** 

### 4 **material.** 

### 5 **Now, you will get a wide range of,** 

### 6 **you know, opinions from utilities on their labor** 

### 7 **because they calculate it differently. We** 

### 8 **calculate by trip charge, and that's just taking** 

### 9 **them all in, you know, what we pay for all trips.** 

### 10 **Obviously, there is -- when you mention flagging** 

### 11 **traffic, that costs a lot more.** 

### 12 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 13 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock** 

### 14 **EEI. Yes. I was going to say for -- I'm sure** 

### 15 **for certain utilities like Con Ed in New York and** 

### 16 **Commonwealth Edison in Chicago, especially** 

### 17 **those -- if they're in urban areas where they** 

### 18 **have to do extra permitting and, you know,** 

### 19 **street-blocking, then those costs are probably** 

### 20 **double, I would say, at least what Mr. Stevens** 

### 21 **was saying.** 

### 22 **And, again, it's going to vary by**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 252**  **1 utility, and it's probably going to especially**  

### 2 **vary by urban versus suburban versus rural.** 

### 3 **Those are your -- I'll say your break points.** 

### 4 **I will try to get some of our members** 

### 5 **to chime in, but that gives you at least a** 

### 6 **starting point for what the -- probably what the** 

### 7 **range is going to be.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments on** 

### 9 **life-cycle costs. Alex.** 

### 10 **MR. BOESENBERG: Alex Boesenberg,** 

### 11 **NEMA. I have made a note and I intend to include** 

### 12 **in the NEMA comments an expansion on what Mr.** 

### 13 **Oommen said. If the protector you add to an** 

### 14 **electronic ballast is only good for two hits, but** 

### 15 **the belief is a magnetic ballast can withstand** 

### 16 **10, so there's a times five -- whatever the** 

### 17 **replacement cost is for that protector, you've** 

### 18 **got to go do it five times to get the same life,** 

### 19 **in terms of surge strike, as magnetic. So I will** 

### 20 **try to expand on that.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Joanna?** 

### 22 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. If I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 253**  **1 could just pose one additional question about**  

### 2 **the LCC results, and it is concerning kind of the** 

### 3 **relationship between LCC savings and the portion** 

### 4 **of customers that benefit from a given level.** 

### 5 **And just as an example, so looking** 

### 6 **at the 70-watt representative unit, the LCC** 

### 7 **savings at EL3 are negative for indoor fixtures** 

### 8 **and positive for outdoor fixtures, and yet a** 

### 9 **greater portion of customers benefit from EL3** 

### 10 **for indoor fixtures than for outdoor fixtures,** 

### 11 **which seems a little counterintuitive. I don't** 

### 12 **know if that's something you took a look at.** 

### 13 **MR. MORRIS: I can't give you a** 

### 14 **response now, but we'll certainly look into it.** 

### 15 **Thank you.** 

### 16 **MS. MAUER: Okay. Thanks.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Good. We're moving** 

### 18 **on.** 

### 19 **MR. MORRIS: So when we** 

### 20 **combine -- well, we'll talk about the shipments** 

### 21 **analysis now. When we combine shipments with** 

### 22 **per unit energy use and economic specifics, we**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 254**  **1 get the results that we will talk about in the**  

### 2 **NIA, which is the National Impact Analysis,** 

### 3 **specifically national energy savings and the net** 

### 4 **present value, the monetary savings.** 

### 5 **So shipments ultimately determine** 

### 6 **the annual capital cost of installing new** 

### 7 **equipment and the age and stock of the equipment** 

### 8 **during the analysis period. This graph** 

### 9 **here -- I guess during the preliminary analysis** 

### 10 **we presented a shipment scenario with greater** 

### 11 **total shipments, represented by the upper line** 

### 12 **here.** 

### 13 **We received many comments, and in** 

### 14 **response to those comments from the --** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: That's the slide we** 

### 16 **have in the packet.** 

### 17 **MR. MORRIS: Okay. Yes. It -- the** 

### 18 **graphic gets overlaid on it.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 20 **MR. MORRIS: Sorry about that.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. MORRIS: That's part two of this**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 255**  **1 slide. Shouldn't have done it --**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: No, keep going. No.** 

### 3 **Just so you can explain it.** 

### 4 **MR. MORRIS: Yes. Thank you.** 

### 5 **Thank you, Doug.** 

### 6 **So we reviewed additional data and** 

### 7 **changed the estimated shipment scenarios as** 

### 8 **shown by these bottom two lines. We ran two sets** 

### 9 **of shipment scenarios, in general, low shipment** 

### 10 **and high shipment scenarios, to give some** 

### 11 **sensitivity to the possible effects of different** 

### 12 **shipments.** 

### 13 **So you'll notice also that the trend** 

### 14 **is the same as in the preliminary analysis, and** 

### 15 **that the high and low shipment scenarios are both** 

### 16 **declining substantially.** 

### 17 **The second graphic here is just an** 

### 18 **illustration of the 70-watt equipment class.** 

### 19 **This is just base case shipments, assuming no new** 

### 20 **standards. Again, it just shows a sharp** 

### 21 **decline, and you'll also notice that the indoor** 

### 22 **fixtures are a lot less than the outdoor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 256**  **1 fixtures, in the neighborhood of 30 percent of**  

### 2 **what the outdoor shipments make up for.** 

### 3 **Any comments about the shipments** 

### 4 **analysis in general?** 

### 5 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex?** 

### 6 **MR. BOESENBERG: Ales Boesenberg,** 

### 7 **NEMA. Maybe I missed it, and I'll surely feel** 

### 8 **stupid, but we were talking about analysis of** 

### 9 **shipments earlier. And there was an** 

### 10 **estimation, as I recall, the DOE said that** 

### 11 **shipments would return to 2006 levels by 2040.** 

### 12 **This looks like you agree with our analysis that** 

### 13 **shipments are declining, so I'm not -- which is** 

### 14 **which? Am I looking at the wrong one?** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael, can you --** 

### 16 **MR. MYER: Michael Meyer, Pacific** 

### 17 **Northwest National Laboratory. I actually am** 

### 18 **curious. I've heard the comment from other** 

### 19 **people as well about this 2006 number, and I've** 

### 20 **actually looked for a couple of places. So it's** 

### 21 **a clarification we'll be reviewing to see a** 

### 22 **return.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 257**  **1 I think there is some benchmarking**  

### 2 **using 2006 as a benchmark. But at this time, I** 

### 3 **can't find the exact reference that has been** 

### 4 **referred to. At this point, this is the first** 

### 5 **time we are showing a shipment slide, but we have** 

### 6 **been listening to -- from the comments we** 

### 7 **received both in the preliminary analysis for** 

### 8 **metal halide, as well as the HID interim** 

### 9 **analysis, that it's a declining technology.** 

### 10 **But as I said, we did use prior years** 

### 11 **as benchmarking for different reasons,** 

### 12 **correlations of technologies, those type** 

### 13 **things. But we will look to see if we can -- if** 

### 14 **there is a clarification that needs to be made.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, did you all** 

### 16 **provide shipments data that follow this pathway?** 

### 17 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 18 **Boesenberg from NEMA. I'm referring to the** 

### 19 **Slide 15 in our presentation at the beginning of** 

### 20 **the day.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Okay.** 

### 22 **MR. MYER: Mike Myer. Yes. It**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 258**  **1 says here they did provide some slides.**  

### 2 **Actually, if we could discuss those real fast.** 

### 3 **I guess a question I had regarding Slide 15 from** 

### 4 **NEMA's presentation, in the lower left-hand** 

### 5 **quadrant, total shipments -- and since we've** 

### 6 **talked about this is a ballast versus fixture,** 

### 7 **et cetera.** 

### 8 **Can you roughly estimate how many of** 

### 9 **those ballasts are going to new fixtures versus** 

### 10 **how many are stand-alone ballasts going to** 

### 11 **replace existing fixtures in the field, so they** 

### 12 **are going into a shell rather than rolling off** 

### 13 **the assembly line in a new fixture?** 

### 14 **MR. BOESENBERG: When I asked our** 

### 15 **business office that question, he told me that** 

### 16 **the amount of replacement ballast was** 

### 17 **negligible, and it did not overly change the** 

### 18 **curve.** 

### 19 **MR. MYER: Okay. And then, if I** 

### 20 **could ask one other question for industry,** 

### 21 **again, looking at these graphs. We keep talking** 

### 22 **about new fixtures, and then we have also had**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 259**  **1 this analogy of fixtures destroyed by Superstorm**  

### 2 **Sandy or some other reason. Could industry** 

### 3 **comment on how many new fixtures that are rolling** 

### 4 **off the life are going for new installations** 

### 5 **versus going to replace -- or new fixtures going** 

### 6 **into the field into an existing metal halide** 

### 7 **landscape? Does that make sense?** 

### 8 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex.** 

### 9 **Your question makes sense, and I do not know the** 

### 10 **answer. I will open it up to one of my members** 

### 11 **who participates in that survey can tell those** 

### 12 **of us here if that granularity is in the survey.** 

### 13 **I suspect not.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. I don't see** 

### 15 **any response that's forthcoming. Michael, are** 

### 16 **you finished with your --** 

### 17 **MR. MYER: I'm okay at the moment.** 

### 18 **I'll step down. Thank you.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Louis.** 

### 20 **MR. STARR: Just kind of a question.** 

### 21 **If all the new fixtures are coming off the line,** 

### 22 **or all of the ballasts are going in fixtures but**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 260**  **1 they're not replacement, does that mean people**  

### 2 **don't replace the ballasts in there? Because if** 

### 3 **a ballast lasts 20 years, and they are all new** 

### 4 **ballasts and you're not replacing any, that** 

### 5 **means in 10 years they're replacing the ballasts** 

### 6 **and the fixtures.** 

### 7 **So it seems like some percentage of** 

### 8 **that would have to be -- you know, not knowing** 

### 9 **anything about light fixtures or anything, just** 

### 10 **the math to make it add up, means that someone** 

### 11 **has to be buying a replacement fixture at some** 

### 12 **point. Can you help me understand that?** 

### 13 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 14 **Boesenberg from NEMA. We do collect** 

### 15 **information of whether a ballast is sold for OEM,** 

### 16 **meaning it goes into a fixture or a replacement.** 

### 17 **And this is a good time for me to speak, as I did** 

### 18 **to Lucy during lunch. First, the DOE is going** 

### 19 **to go and look at all of the numbers, the graphs** 

### 20 **we provided, not really numbers.** 

### 21 **And bear in mind the requirements we** 

### 22 **have at NEMA to protect our members' data, not**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 261**  **1 just from public release but from being able to**  

### 2 **figure out what your competitors' numbers are,** 

### 3 **we have to protect the backwards math not only** 

### 4 **externally but internally. And because of** 

### 5 **that, sometimes we cannot -- you know, I could** 

### 6 **have given different slides today, if we did** 

### 7 **exactly what you're asking.** 

### 8 **We had to protect some of the** 

### 9 **information because when a member participates** 

### 10 **in a survey for a given product, they get the** 

### 11 **results of the survey aggregated. When there** 

### 12 **are very few responses in a given class to** 

### 13 **provide a number, sort of just one figure, it** 

### 14 **means you could backwards engineer it and know** 

### 15 **what your competitor produced.** 

### 16 **So as Ari categorized it, there is** 

### 17 **some noise in the NEMA slides I presented. And** 

### 18 **it's there for protection. So DOE are going to** 

### 19 **talk -- I gave Lucy all the list of the things** 

### 20 **we have to do to mitigate those concerns. And** 

### 21 **so they are going to talk to their team about what** 

### 22 **we can do between the two of us to provide useful**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 262**  **1 data to the rulemaking while still protecting**  

### 2 **confidentiality.** 

### 3 **So I do have that data. No, I can't** 

### 4 **show it to anybody.** 

### 5 **MR. STARR: Well, just a follow up** 

### 6 **question, if you just did straightforward math,** 

### 7 **I think that means that 10 percent of the** 

### 8 **fixtures, if people really kept them to the full** 

### 9 **life, their length, and they lasted 10,000** 

### 10 **hours, it seems like roughly 10 percent of them** 

### 11 **have to be replacement fixtures each year,** 

### 12 **just -- I mean, even if you didn't go off shipment** 

### 13 **analysis but just kind of how people typically** 

### 14 **used them, it seems like you could also kind of** 

### 15 **come up with a number, you know, knowing that** 

### 16 **some people are probably going to redesign their** 

### 17 **whole lighting system at 15 years or do something** 

### 18 **else.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: It's nice to know** 

### 20 **that you are going to work with DOE to provide** 

### 21 **the data. So I'm -- rather than speculate.** 

### 22 **Steve, a final comment before we move on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 263**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,**  

### 2 **yes, just to follow up, is that there could be** 

### 3 **that -- there are some people that warehouse** 

### 4 **things that they just buy the balance ahead of** 

### 5 **time to have them in the warehouse. So it might** 

### 6 **not be 10 percent. It might be nine or eight** 

### 7 **percent because people have some of them in the** 

### 8 **warehouse already to take care of those** 

### 9 **situations with their replacement, or to handle** 

### 10 **storms.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Rebecca.** 

### 12 **MS. RAINER: Rebecca Rainer, Eaton** 

### 13 **Cooper. You know, as a manufacturer, sometimes** 

### 14 **it's very difficult for us to know if that** 

### 15 **product is actually going as a replacement** 

### 16 **product or if it's for a new installation.** 

### 17 **Normally, there are only two reasons why you** 

### 18 **would have a replacement product. One is** 

### 19 **catastrophic events like Hurricane Sandy or** 

### 20 **Katrina or an option like that, or what we call** 

### 21 **knockdowns when a vehicle actually hits the car,** 

### 22 **knocks -- a car hits the pole, knocks the pole**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 264**  **1 down, and damages it.**  

### 2 **But as a manufacturer, it is very** 

### 3 **hard for us to know, unless we just went through** 

### 4 **and assumed that every time we were shipping one** 

### 5 **fixture that that was a replacement. So it is** 

### 6 **very difficult. That answer probably is better** 

### 7 **answered by our customers and utilities.** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joanna.** 

### 9 **MS. MAUER: Joanna Mauer. Alex, I** 

### 10 **just wanted to make sure I understood something** 

### 11 **you said a little while ago about the NEMA** 

### 12 **shipment data, and that the shipment data** 

### 13 **ballast set -- almost all of those ballast are** 

### 14 **going to OEMs, going into new fixtures. Is that** 

### 15 **what you said, that the portion that are** 

### 16 **replacement ballasts going into existing** 

### 17 **fixtures is negligible? Is that what you said?** 

### 18 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex.** 

### 19 **Since I am not the economist, I will try to** 

### 20 **remember how he categorized it.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: You said he didn't** 

### 22 **change the shape of the curve.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 265**  **1 MR. BOESENBERG: The curves that we**  

### 2 **gave represent the trend is fairly consistent** 

### 3 **for OEM market.** 

### 4 **MS. MAUER: Okay. So maybe not the** 

### 5 **absolute number but the --** 

### 6 **MR. BOESENBERG: Yes.** 

### 7 **MS. MAUER: Direction. Okay.** 

### 8 **MR. BOESENBERG: Yes.** 

### 9 **MS. MAUER: Thank you.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Daniel.** 

### 11 **MR. YOUNG: Daniel Young,** 

### 12 **California Utilities. Just a quick question** 

### 13 **for DOE. Did you consider different rates of** 

### 14 **LED incursion -- I assume this is mostly from LED** 

### 15 **incursion -- for the different wattage bins?** 

### 16 **MR. MORRIS: Yes. Michael has a** 

### 17 **much better explanation for that than I do.** 

### 18 **MR. MYER: Yes. So based on** 

### 19 **comments that we heard in the preliminary** 

### 20 **analysis from halide, as well as the framework,** 

### 21 **and as well the HID determination rule, we** 

### 22 **received comments about conversion from metal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 266**  **1 halide to linear fluorescent interior**  

### 2 **applications. In exterior applications, we** 

### 3 **know that not only LED but also induction and** 

### 4 **other technologies, and also even in some cases** 

### 5 **as a result of the California rule, some people** 

### 6 **actually went to high-pressure sodium instead of** 

### 7 **metal halide, as we heard in one of those public** 

### 8 **meetings as well.** 

### 9 **Each rate of decline is slightly** 

### 10 **different. That wattage -- obviously, low** 

### 11 **wattage is more attenuous for certain technology** 

### 12 **right now. We've heard this time also that -- at** 

### 13 **high wattage, especially super high wattage,** 

### 14 **right now there is probably nothing else that can** 

### 15 **compete with these metal halide.** 

### 16 **So, yes, at each wattage bin, as well** 

### 17 **as indoor and outdoor, there are different** 

### 18 **trends. There is not one consistent** 

### 19 **declination rate.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: We're moving on.** 

### 21 **MR. MORRIS: So both the national** 

### 22 **energy savings and the net present value**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 267**  **1 calculations incorporate the energy and**  

### 2 **monetary savings or losses occurring both during** 

### 3 **the 30-year analysis period, also until the end** 

### 4 **of the life of the products installed at the end** 

### 5 **of the 30 years.** 

### 6 **While no further capital cost** 

### 7 **expenditures are incurred, for example, to buy** 

### 8 **new fixtures after the 30-year analysis period,** 

### 9 **energy use characteristics and operating** 

### 10 **expenses continue until the end of life of those** 

### 11 **fixtures installed in the final year.** 

### 12 **And these graphs show -- the one on** 

### 13 **the left is national energy savings. The reason** 

### 14 **the national energy savings is increasing for** 

### 15 **the first 20 or so years is because the stock of** 

### 16 **more efficient equipment that is being affected** 

### 17 **by the standard is being installed starting in** 

### 18 **the first year of the analysis period. As the** 

### 19 **stock grows over time, the energy savings also** 

### 20 **increases.** 

### 21 **And around 20, 25 years out there,** 

### 22 **those fixtures start failing. And because**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 268**  **1 we're not replacing those fixtures in kind with**  

### 2 **more metal halide fixtures per se, you see the** 

### 3 **energy savings start to diminish. And that's** 

### 4 **kind of the same story with the NPV graph shown** 

### 5 **on the right.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. Okay.** 

### 7 **MR. MORRIS: Any comments?** 

### 8 **MR. BROOKMAN: No.** 

### 9 **MR. MORRIS: Okay. If there's no** 

### 10 **comment, I --** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: No comment box here.** 

### 12 **Just -- yes, let's make sure questions here, if** 

### 13 **any. Mark.** 

### 14 **MR. DUFFY: Yes. Just I would like** 

### 15 **to encourage, if it hasn't been already included** 

### 16 **in the national energy savings, that to make** 

### 17 **larger ballasts, larger luminaires such as in** 

### 18 **EL2, costs a lot more up front, manufacturing** 

### 19 **costs.** 

### 20 **So carbon footprint, the energy** 

### 21 **associated with making larger objects, the** 

### 22 **energy associated with shipping larger objects,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 269**  **1 and that sort of thing, should be factored into**  

### 2 **that national energy savings, because it may not** 

### 3 **make much sense to save a very small amount over** 

### 4 **the use of the product if you are spending a whole** 

### 5 **bunch up front.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. MORRIS: Thank you. I'm going** 

### 8 **to turn it over to Hayden Cook to talk about the** 

### 9 **manufacturer impact analysis.** 

### 10 **MR. COOK: Hi. My name is Hayden** 

### 11 **Cook with Navigant Consulting. I will be** 

### 12 **discussing the manufacturer impact analysis or** 

### 13 **MIA that was conducted for this NOPR. The MIA** 

### 14 **slides present three things. First, they** 

### 15 **present an overview of how the MIA was conducted.** 

### 16 **Second, they briefly discuss the manufacturer** 

### 17 **impacts of the proposed standards. And, third,** 

### 18 **they introduce the MIA topics DOE is seeking** 

### 19 **comment on.** 

### 20 **The main purpose of the MIA is to** 

### 21 **assess the impacts of standards of manufacturers** 

### 22 **of metal halide ballasts in fixtures. A second**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 270**  **1 purpose is to identify and estimate the impacts**  

### 2 **of manufacturer subgroups.** 

### 3 **In the upcoming slides, I'll discuss** 

### 4 **the impacts of standards on the small business** 

### 5 **manufacturer subgroup. The final portion of** 

### 6 **the MIA involves a discussion of direct** 

### 7 **employment manufacturing capacity and other** 

### 8 **federal regulations that impact the same** 

### 9 **manufacturers around the compliance date for** 

### 10 **this rulemaking.** 

### 11 **The main tool that DOE uses to** 

### 12 **evaluate the impacts of standards on** 

### 13 **manufacturers is a discounted cashflow model** 

### 14 **called the Government Regulatory Impact Model or** 

### 15 **GRIM. The major output from the cashflow model** 

### 16 **is industry net present value or INPV, a metric** 

### 17 **used to represent the quantitative impacts of** 

### 18 **new and amended standards on manufacturers of** 

### 19 **the covered equipment.** 

### 20 **For the MIA, DOE also conducted** 

### 21 **interviews with manufacturers to refine the** 

### 22 **inputs to the cashflow model and to understand**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 271**  **1 the qualitative impacts of standards.**  

### 2 **This slide shows the basic structure** 

### 3 **of the MIA process. It takes place in three** 

### 4 **different phases. In the first phase, which** 

### 5 **occurred during the preliminary analysis, DOE** 

### 6 **uses publicly available information, such as** 

### 7 **manufacturers' annual reports, to develop a** 

### 8 **profile of industry.** 

### 9 **Phases 2 and 3 were conducted as part** 

### 10 **of the NOPR analysis. In Phase 2, DOE developed** 

### 11 **the cashflow spreadsheets that are used to** 

### 12 **estimate the impacts on industry, and the** 

### 13 **interview guide that was used to gather** 

### 14 **information from manufacturers during those** 

### 15 **manufacturer interviews.** 

### 16 **In Phase 3, DOE conducted interviews** 

### 17 **with manufacturers and used the information to** 

### 18 **further develop the analyses and to finalize the** 

### 19 **inputs.** 

### 20 **Switching from MIA methodology to** 

### 21 **the specifics about this rulemaking, this slide** 

### 22 **presents the key issues that we learned from**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 272**  **1 manufacturers concerning metal halide ballasts**  

### 2 **and fixtures. First, manufacturers expressed** 

### 3 **concern over their ability to recoup investments** 

### 4 **made in order to comply with standards.** 

### 5 **Increasing market penetration from** 

### 6 **emerging technologies, such as solid state** 

### 7 **lighting, has downsized the metal halide market** 

### 8 **already, and any standards that increase the** 

### 9 **costs of metal halide fixtures to customers will** 

### 10 **narrow the gap in price between metal halide and** 

### 11 **solid state lighting.** 

### 12 **This could potentially cause** 

### 13 **customers to increasingly favor solid state** 

### 14 **lighting technologies, thereby increasing the** 

### 15 **risk of stranding investments made to comply** 

### 16 **with metal halide energy conservation** 

### 17 **standards, as has been brought up previously.** 

### 18 **The second key issue focuses on** 

### 19 **using a ballast-only efficiency metric as the** 

### 20 **metric for this rulemaking. Some manufacturers** 

### 21 **stated that selecting a ballast-only efficiency** 

### 22 **metric does not allow standards to capture**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 273**  **1 energy savings from the lamps and the fixtures**  

### 2 **themselves.** 

### 3 **Conversely, other manufacturers did** 

### 4 **not favor a lamp and ballast efficiency metric,** 

### 5 **because it would give a competitive advantage to** 

### 6 **those manufacturers who produce both metal** 

### 7 **halide ballasts and lamps. Also, several** 

### 8 **manufacturers oppose the use of a fixture** 

### 9 **efficiency metric.** 

### 10 **Lastly, manufacturers believe** 

### 11 **updated standards should maintain an existing** 

### 12 **150-watt exemption for specific fixtures. The** 

### 13 **manufacturer stated that this exemption creates** 

### 14 **energy savings by pushing customers of the more** 

### 15 **expensive 175-watt fixtures to the less** 

### 16 **expensive 150-watt fixtures.** 

### 17 **The manufacturer stated that** 

### 18 **customers would revert back to the 175-watt** 

### 19 **fixtures if the exemptions were not maintained** 

### 20 **due to a significant price increase caused by** 

### 21 **bringing the 150-watt fixtures into compliance.** 

### 22 **And this could possibly nullify any energy**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 274**  **1 savings created by regulating the 150-watt**  

### 2 **fixtures themselves.** 

### 3 **This slide presents an overview of** 

### 4 **the shipment and markup scenarios DOE ran for the** 

### 5 **MIA. The shipments scenario was previously** 

### 6 **described in the shipments analysis. DOE** 

### 7 **analyzed four different scenarios for metal** 

### 8 **halides using a flat or preservation of** 

### 9 **operating profit markup scenario as well as the** 

### 10 **high or low shipment scenario.** 

### 11 **Each of the four scenarios analyzed** 

### 12 **used one shipment scenario and one markup** 

### 13 **scenario.** 

### 14 **For the low shipment scenario, DOE** 

### 15 **projected a significant decline in shipments** 

### 16 **over the analysis period while in the high** 

### 17 **shipment scenario, the decline of shipments is** 

### 18 **less severe.** 

### 19 **For the flat markup scenario,** 

### 20 **manufacturers are in the same markup percentage** 

### 21 **as they do in the base case on any increase in** 

### 22 **the NPC due to standards. For the preservation**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 275**  **1 of operating profit markup scenario,**  

### 2 **manufacturers earn the same operating profit in** 

### 3 **absolute dollars in the base case as they do in** 

### 4 **the standards case in the year after the standard** 

### 5 **goes into effect.** 

### 6 **DOE estimates the least severe** 

### 7 **scenario for manufacturers by using the high** 

### 8 **shipment scenario and in combination with the** 

### 9 **flat markup scenario. In this scenario, there** 

### 10 **are more shipments to spread out the** 

### 11 **manufacturer conversion costs over throughout** 

### 12 **the analysis period, and manufacturers are able** 

### 13 **to fully pass on to their customers the** 

### 14 **additional costs due to standards.** 

### 15 **To estimate the more severe scenario** 

### 16 **for manufacturers, DOE used the low shipment** 

### 17 **scenario in conjunction with the preservation of** 

### 18 **operating profit markup scenario. In this** 

### 19 **scenario, there are fewer shipments to spread** 

### 20 **the manufacturer conversion costs over** 

### 21 **throughout the analysis period, and** 

### 22 **manufacturers are not able to fully pass through**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 276**  **1 the additional costs due to standards.**  

### 2 **So getting to the INPV results, the** 

### 3 **markup and shipment scenarios described in the** 

### 4 **previous slide yield the metal halide ballast** 

### 5 **manufacturer INPV impact shown here in this** 

### 6 **slide, and these are separate from the fixture** 

### 7 **manufacturers, which will be on the next slide.** 

### 8 **The first table represents the least** 

### 9 **severe impact to metal halide ballast** 

### 10 **manufacturers, and the second table represents** 

### 11 **the most severe impacts to metal halide** 

### 12 **manufacturer -- sorry, metal halide ballast** 

### 13 **manufacturers. And, again, the TSL highlighted** 

### 14 **in yellow, TSL 3, is the one that is being** 

### 15 **proposed for this NOPR.** 

### 16 **This next slide presents the INPV** 

### 17 **impacts on metal halide fixture manufacturers.** 

### 18 **Again, the first table represents the least** 

### 19 **severe impact to manufacturer -- to metal halide** 

### 20 **fixture manufacturers, and the second table** 

### 21 **represents the more severe impact to metal** 

### 22 **halide fixture manufacturers. Again, TSL 3 is**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 277**  **1 the TSL that is being proposed for this NOPR**  

### 2 **period.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith?** 

### 4 **MR. KEITH COOK: Yes, I think the** 

### 5 **one thing we are missing here, though, is the** 

### 6 **impact on the lamp manufacturers, because as** 

### 7 **these costs go up there is going to be the** 

### 8 **conversion to LEDs like we talked about before,** 

### 9 **so their volume is going to go down. So there** 

### 10 **is a cost definitely associated with that as far** 

### 11 **as the lamp manufacturer is concerned.** 

### 12 **So if this is a fixture rulemaking,** 

### 13 **we need to account for those lamps as well.** 

### 14 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: Okay. So you're** 

### 15 **talking about the decline in shipments due to a** 

### 16 **standard? It would also result in the decline** 

### 17 **of lamps?** 

### 18 **MR. KEITH COOK: Correct. The** 

### 19 **other thing is, I -- Lucy has heard me ask this** 

### 20 **one before. But why do we go through this** 

### 21 **exercise? Because as far as I know, there is no** 

### 22 **criteria that is established for pass or fail.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 278**  **1 And so we do this exercise, spend a lot of time**  

### 2 **on it, and so what?** 

### 3 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: Well, my** 

### 4 **understanding is that this is one of the criteria** 

### 5 **that DOE uses to select -- to ultimately select,** 

### 6 **propose, and adopt a standard. However, there** 

### 7 **is no magic number that is used that says this** 

### 8 **is something that is unacceptable or acceptable.** 

### 9 **But it is a criteria that is used.** 

### 10 **I imagine it as a weight for and** 

### 11 **against. And as the INPV impacts get larger,** 

### 12 **that weight becomes larger, and then, therefore,** 

### 13 **it's another criteria that is used for a reason** 

### 14 **why a standard shouldn't be selected.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Lucy?** 

### 16 **MS. DeBUTTS: This is -- the answer** 

### 17 **is basically on Slide 11. It's one of the** 

### 18 **factors that we have to assess in order to make** 

### 19 **considerations for energy conservation** 

### 20 **standards. And that's in U.S. Code, so we have** 

### 21 **to do this.** 

### 22 **MR. KEITH COOK: Yes. I**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 279**  **1 understood.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe.** 

### 3 **MR. HOWLEY: I'm just adding an** 

### 4 **observation that as the TSLs get higher and** 

### 5 **higher, therefore, increasing the costs of these** 

### 6 **fixtures more and more, it almost assures that** 

### 7 **you are going to be in the low shipment scenario** 

### 8 **because it is going to push this market down** 

### 9 **faster and faster.** 

### 10 **Where you're at now with TLC -- TSL** 

### 11 **3 almost certainly we are talking about a low** 

### 12 **shipment kind of scenario here, which is** 

### 13 **negative for both the fixture and the ballast** 

### 14 **manufacturers. So you may ask, why would** 

### 15 **manufacturers invest in this area if even the DOE** 

### 16 **believes there is going to be a negative return** 

### 17 **on investment? Most of us are for-profit** 

### 18 **companies.** 

### 19 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: I want to make a** 

### 20 **point of clarification. So the negative that** 

### 21 **you are talking about I think is -- the change** 

### 22 **in INPV percentage is negative. So that's**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 280**  **1 comparing that TSL case to the base case, so what**  

### 2 **you would have seen with no standard compared to** 

### 3 **what is happening with a standard. So that** 

### 4 **industry value is shrinking by three percent.** 

### 5 **However, the industry value is not** 

### 6 **negative. It is simply a delta from a** 

### 7 **no-standard case. So there is still positive** 

### 8 **industry net present value at TSL 3, which is** 

### 9 **represented by that top line. However, the** 

### 10 **delta between TSL 3 and the base case is** 

### 11 **negative. So there is still a profit to be made.** 

### 12 **It's just a smaller profit than in the base case.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 15 **EEI. I'm also looking at the life-cycle cost** 

### 16 **analysis. And basically whenever you are going** 

### 17 **up to TSL 5, that is -- in a lot of the cases,** 

### 18 **that is where you are seeing a lot of the highest** 

### 19 **median paybacks for the end use customers, in a** 

### 20 **lot of the cases, in a lot of scenarios shown in** 

### 21 **the life-cycle cost, and in a lot of the cases** 

### 22 **higher life-cycle costs, higher installed**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 281**  **1 costs.**  

### 2 **I'm just kind of curious -- and,** 

### 3 **again, just looking at this high shipment flat** 

### 4 **markup scenario case, going from three to five,** 

### 5 **I'm just really surprised that the net present** 

### 6 **value increases when all of the life-cycle** 

### 7 **economics say that the customer is not going to** 

### 8 **buy at TSL 5.** 

### 9 **I'm just trying to connect the dots** 

### 10 **here. And if the -- if the economics are so bad** 

### 11 **for the end use customer, both on a payback and** 

### 12 **life-cycle cost basis, where they are going to** 

### 13 **be encouraged not to buy the fixture made at TSL** 

### 14 **5, how can the manufacturing net present value** 

### 15 **increase when the life-cycle cost numbers are so** 

### 16 **terrible?** 

### 17 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: I can respond to** 

### 18 **that. So I would agree with you as you go to the** 

### 19 **higher TSLs it is less likely that you are in the** 

### 20 **scenario that is the least severe to** 

### 21 **manufacturer impact. So there is a kind of -- I** 

### 22 **would call it a Cone of Uncertainty that as you**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 282**  **1 get to higher TSLs the differences become -- you**  

### 2 **know, the best case scenario becomes better, and** 

### 3 **the worst case scenario becomes worse.** 

### 4 **And as you move to the higher TSLs,** 

### 5 **it is more likely that you are in the worst-case** 

### 6 **scenario than you are in the best case scenario.** 

### 7 **But because it is very complicated and each** 

### 8 **manufacturer will respond to how they markup** 

### 9 **their prices differently, we present a range of** 

### 10 **options, and this is an upper bound and a lower** 

### 11 **bound. But I would agree with you that as you** 

### 12 **move to the higher TSLs the lower bound becomes** 

### 13 **the more likely scenario.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. BROOKMAN: Do we have** 

### 16 **additional comments or questions on these two** 

### 17 **MIA tables? Yes, Daniel.** 

### 18 **MR. YOUNG: I have a question. So** 

### 19 **I think in the beginning, or previously I had** 

### 20 **thought that the manufacturers were concerned,** 

### 21 **as is being explained here, that higher** 

### 22 **standards would lead to more expensive metal**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 283**  **1 halides, and LEDs would, therefore, penetrate**  

### 2 **the market faster. I think earlier today it was** 

### 3 **suggested that the opposite might be true, and** 

### 4 **in fact by diverting resources away from LED** 

### 5 **development, if that were to happen, then** 

### 6 **perhaps it would actually slow the incursion of** 

### 7 **LEDs.** 

### 8 **So I'm wondering if industry has an** 

### 9 **updated view on that, or if it's just within the** 

### 10 **Cone of Uncertainty maybe?** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex.** 

### 12 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 13 **Boesenberg from NEMA. I think this goes back to** 

### 14 **my previous comment about companies will make** 

### 15 **their individual business decisions. Some** 

### 16 **companies are just going to leave the market.** 

### 17 **And that means what market is left to the** 

### 18 **companies who decide to continue and make that** 

### 19 **investment will theoretically have a little** 

### 20 **bigger market share now available.** 

### 21 **But at the same time, the long-range** 

### 22 **view is LED. And we -- all our companies, as far**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 284**  **1 as I know, want to be a player in the future, and**  

### 2 **that's LED. So it's -- that's the diversion of** 

### 3 **resources.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl.** 

### 5 **MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English,** 

### 6 **Acuity Brands. Hayden, I just want a** 

### 7 **clarification. When we were talking about the** 

### 8 **most severe scenario and you made the comment** 

### 9 **that there is still profit to be made, but it** 

### 10 **would be smaller than the base case of no rule,** 

### 11 **so from my business perspective that is a** 

### 12 **negative implication on the manufacturer, and** 

### 13 **certainly not what shareholders are looking for** 

### 14 **from publicly traded companies.** 

### 15 **So I agree with Keith that I think** 

### 16 **of the scenarios that you have talked about where** 

### 17 **we are talking about low shipment, the data we** 

### 18 **provided in the manufacturer impact interviews** 

### 19 **showed a drastically declining market. It is** 

### 20 **only getting smaller, and, you know, even though** 

### 21 **there is profit numbers shown there, I think** 

### 22 **that's a negative impact when it is less profit**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 285**  **1 than what the no-rule scenario provides.**  

### 2 **So I just wanted to make sure I was** 

### 3 **clear on your comment that --** 

### 4 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: Yes. I agree** 

### 5 **with that. I think I was addressing the comment** 

### 6 **that -- of -- I'm sorry, I forgot if Keith made** 

### 7 **this or not. He said that, "Why would you stay** 

### 8 **in business or" --** 

### 9 **MS. ENGLISH: Yes.** 

### 10 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: -- "where does the** 

### 11 **business make profit?" You would still -- my** 

### 12 **point was I just referring --** 

### 13 **MS. ENGLISH: Well, if you're in a** 

### 14 **market where your profits are continually** 

### 15 **declining, you are not going to be in business.** 

### 16 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: Okay.** 

### 17 **MS. ENGLISH: The other part of this** 

### 18 **is a question, because I have not looked at that** 

### 19 **level of detail in the additional documents from** 

### 20 **DOE, but the conversion costs on the fixture** 

### 21 **manufacturers seem surprisingly low. And I'm** 

### 22 **wondering if it includes the fact that we have**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 286**  **1 to make the investments at this TSL 3 level**  

### 2 **related to the redesign of the fixtures and new** 

### 3 **capital equipment.** 

### 4 **It appears to me that it does not** 

### 5 **include those conversion costs -- including** 

### 6 **those conversion costs with the compliance that** 

### 7 **we spoke about early on in -- before the** 

### 8 **introductory remarks we made. So, you know,** 

### 9 **marketing conversion costs, phase-in/phase-out** 

### 10 **of products, IT systems, in addition to --** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: There were 10 or so** 

### 12 **bulleted points.** 

### 13 **MS. ENGLISH: -- product redesign.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.** 

### 15 **MS. ENGLISH: Yes.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Yes.** 

### 17 **MS. ENGLISH: Did this include** 

### 18 **those costs on fixture manufacturers or not?** 

### 19 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: Yes, it did.** 

### 20 **MS. ENGLISH: Okay. Well, they are** 

### 21 **surprisingly low. So we'll have to take a look** 

### 22 **at the data on that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 287**  **1 MR. HAYDEN COOK: Okay.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Final** 

### 3 **comments on these two MIA tables before we move** 

### 4 **on?** 

### 5 **(No response.)** 

### 6 **MR. HAYDEN COOK: One criteria that** 

### 7 **DOE looks at is the impacts of standards on small** 

### 8 **businesses. To be considered a metal halide** 

### 9 **ballast small business manufacturer, the Small** 

### 10 **Business Administration, or SBA, sets a limit of** 

### 11 **750 total employees or less for those** 

### 12 **manufacturers, and SBA sets a limit of 500 total** 

### 13 **employees or less for metal halide fixture** 

### 14 **manufacturers.** 

### 15 **DOE uses publicly available** 

### 16 **information to identify potential small** 

### 17 **business manufacturers, such as SBA's database,** 

### 18 **DOE's compliance certification management** 

### 19 **system, trade association lists, and websites,** 

### 20 **Hoovers, and Dun & Bradstreet.** 

### 21 **Also, during manufacturer** 

### 22 **interviews, DOE asks manufacturers if they are**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 288**  **1 aware of any potential small businesses that**  

### 2 **existed in their market. After refining the** 

### 3 **list of potential small businesses based on** 

### 4 **DOE's initial research, DOE directly contacted** 

### 5 **the remaining potential small business** 

### 6 **manufacturers to determine if they met SBA's** 

### 7 **definition of a small business manufacturer.** 

### 8 **DOE found five metal halide ballast** 

### 9 **manufacturers, small business manufacturers,** 

### 10 **and approximately 54 metal halide fixture small** 

### 11 **business manufacturers. Based on interviews** 

### 12 **with -- based on interviews and a review of** 

### 13 **products offered by these five small ballast** 

### 14 **manufacturers, DOE determined that three of the** 

### 15 **five small ballast manufacturers only offered** 

### 16 **high efficient electronic ballasts, which** 

### 17 **currently meet the standards being proposed in** 

### 18 **the NOPR, and, therefore, they would not be** 

### 19 **affected by this rulemaking.** 

### 20 **The remaining two small business** 

### 21 **ballast manufacturers could be either forced to** 

### 22 **reduce the number of ballasts offered or exit the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 289**  **1 market entirely.**  

### 2 **For small fixture manufacturers,** 

### 3 **approximately two-thirds of the 54 small fixture** 

### 4 **manufacturers primarily serve the architectural** 

### 5 **or specialty lighting markets. And based on** 

### 6 **interviews, DOE believes that these specialty** 

### 7 **lighting fixture manufacturers would be able to** 

### 8 **pass on any cost increases due to a standard.** 

### 9 **The other third of these small** 

### 10 **fixture manufacturers could be forced to either** 

### 11 **reduce the number of fixtures offered or exit the** 

### 12 **market entirely.** 

### 13 **At this time, DOE would like to** 

### 14 **request any comment on both the number of small** 

### 15 **ballast and fixture manufacturers identified,** 

### 16 **as well as the potential impact of new and** 

### 17 **amended standards that are used on those small** 

### 18 **business manufacturers.** 

### 19 **MR. KEITH COOK: Keith Cook with** 

### 20 **Philips. I'm very surprised that during the** 

### 21 **interview you found out that the small metal** 

### 22 **halide fixture manufacturer could pass on the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 290**  **1 costs, because in the specialty and**  

### 2 **architectural lighting areas LED is becoming** 

### 3 **extremely competitive. And so there is no way** 

### 4 **that they could pass on any costs and stay in the** 

### 5 **market.** 

### 6 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 7 **Additional comments on impacts on small ballast** 

### 8 **and fixture manufacturers? Okay. Yes,** 

### 9 **Matthew?** 

### 10 **MR. WALKER: This is Matthew Walker** 

### 11 **from Navigant. I did want to make one** 

### 12 **clarification on the fixture manufacturer** 

### 13 **conversion costs question that Cheryl had posed** 

### 14 **a couple of minutes ago. It is true that we** 

### 15 **included product redesign, capital conversion** 

### 16 **costs, when going to an electronic ballast** 

### 17 **level. That's EL3 and 4.** 

### 18 **But you were correct that the NOPR** 

### 19 **analysis, based on the magnetic modeling** 

### 20 **discussions that we had, assumed the footprint** 

### 21 **remained the same. And as a result, the fixture** 

### 22 **didn't need to be redesigned. So that's clearly**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 291**  **1 a point of disagreement from this meeting, but**  

### 2 **I did just want to clarify that.** 

### 3 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thanks for** 

### 4 **clarifying.** 

### 5 **Okay. We're going to hear from** 

### 6 **Michael Myer.** 

### 7 **MR. MYER: Thank you, Hayden.** 

### 8 **Thank you, Doug, for the reintroduction. I'm** 

### 9 **Michael Myer. I'm with Pacific Northwest** 

### 10 **National Laboratory, and I'm going to do a** 

### 11 **handful more of analyses. These are what we** 

### 12 **kind of refer to as the downstream analyses.** 

### 13 **There are different ones, one of** 

### 14 **them being the LCC, which is life-cycle cost** 

### 15 **subgroup analysis. So in this analysis we look** 

### 16 **at three different groups and what the effects** 

### 17 **are on potential standards. Ideally, for** 

### 18 **criteria and for selection for this group, it is** 

### 19 **usually something that makes them an** 

### 20 **outlier -- different electricity price,** 

### 21 **different maintenance costs, different** 

### 22 **operating hours, and so on.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 292**  **1 We selected for the**  

### 2 **three -- utilities, transportation facilities,** 

### 3 **and warehouse owners. And we -- the results are** 

### 4 **consistent in terms of trends with the** 

### 5 **life-cycle cost and payback period analysis.** 

### 6 **Yes, sir.** 

### 7 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 8 **Edison Electric Institute. A couple of quick** 

### 9 **questions. You know, before for -- I'll just** 

### 10 **say for the outdoor lighting, the payback** 

### 11 **periods and the savings were exactly the same for** 

### 12 **all three subgroups. I'll just use that as a** 

### 13 **250-watt metal halide outdoor fixture.** 

### 14 **The median payback periods, the** 

### 15 **average savings, LCCs were different because** 

### 16 **of -- maybe because of maintenance costs, but you** 

### 17 **look at the savings and the median paybacks,** 

### 18 **they're exactly the same. So I guess I'm a** 

### 19 **little --** 

### 20 **MR. MYER: So I have the Technical** 

### 21 **Support Document here in front of me. So you** 

### 22 **said 250-watt outdoor. So in certain cases they**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 293**  **1 are similar. We did -- so, for instance, for**  

### 2 **utilities we did vary the maintenance cost, and** 

### 3 **I'll come back to the data inputs.** 

### 4 **But as you look, they are similar,** 

### 5 **but they actually are slightly different. So if** 

### 6 **you just compare -- do a like comparison between** 

### 7 **utilities, transportation facilities, and** 

### 8 **warehouse owners for the different TSLs, you'll** 

### 9 **notice that in the first two TSLs, yes, they are** 

### 10 **similar numbers, but then as you get into the** 

### 11 **later TSLs the numbers do vary slightly.** 

### 12 **In the case of both transportation** 

### 13 **facility hours and the warehouse** 

### 14 **hours -- warehouse owners, the operating hours** 

### 15 **are different than the average number used in the** 

### 16 **other analysis. However, neither of these** 

### 17 **facilities were significantly larger or lower** 

### 18 **than the average that we used. So that's one** 

### 19 **reason why they're closely related. Does that** 

### 20 **make sense?** 

### 21 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Kind of. I guess** 

### 22 **the other thing is, especially for indoor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 294**  **1 lighting -- well, I guess even for both, why**  

### 2 **would the maintenance costs be one and a half** 

### 3 **times "higher" than the general public?** 

### 4 **MR. MYER: So I appreciate your** 

### 5 **comment on that one. So for the -- we walked** 

### 6 **through this in the Technical Support Document.** 

### 7 **The idea with the utilities, the reason why they** 

### 8 **have more, obviously, the utilities average,** 

### 9 **say, probably less interior equipment, more** 

### 10 **exterior equipment.** 

### 11 **The idea was that they have more** 

### 12 **equipment, their asset management system is** 

### 13 **different than maybe a commercial business where** 

### 14 **if you're a commercial business you know what** 

### 15 **parking lots they are, how often they are being** 

### 16 **operated, and they are monitored, whereas more** 

### 17 **often than not utilities either -- if it's a** 

### 18 **large area of -- you know, the gentleman from** 

### 19 **Florida talked about square kilometer, so it's** 

### 20 **roadway that you may not be able to monitor as** 

### 21 **much. So the idea is that the costs are higher** 

### 22 **for one, as we just heard in this meeting as well,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 295**  **1 possibly flaggers for -- because it's a public**  

### 2 **road versus a parking lot that you can sequester,** 

### 3 **as well as you just have more assets that may not** 

### 4 **be as managed differently.** 

### 5 **And so, therefore, you may not be** 

### 6 **able to know if you have an outage or you might** 

### 7 **have to send a person who just drives around** 

### 8 **looking for outages.** 

### 9 **We'd greatly appreciate -- you know,** 

### 10 **we've heard some discussion about maintenance** 

### 11 **costs related to the life-cycle costs, so we'd** 

### 12 **greatly appreciate any inputs.** 

### 13 **You also did make an earlier comment** 

### 14 **about utilities have lower electricity rates,** 

### 15 **and I would appreciate possibly varying that** 

### 16 **data point. You said that on average most** 

### 17 **electricity utilities are buying, I believe you** 

### 18 **said, at the wholesale rate versus -- so if you** 

### 19 **could give us any type of derating or, you know,** 

### 20 **reference to what we should be using for this** 

### 21 **analysis for utilities, we'd greatly appreciate** 

### 22 **it.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 296**  **1 Yes, sir.**  

### 2 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 3 **Edison Electric Institute. One set of data** 

### 4 **points that you might want to use is the EIA** 

### 5 **wholesale electric data information that is -- I** 

### 6 **get an email every other week basically, and that** 

### 7 **shows in many of the market hubs what the** 

### 8 **wholesale at least a day ahead prices are.** 

### 9 **Others are hourly, but that gives at least a nice** 

### 10 **indicator in terms of it.** 

### 11 **And with other -- actually, with the** 

### 12 **transformer rulemaking, we actually kind of** 

### 13 **shared the data on an annualized basis,** 

### 14 **basically going from 2008 to 2012, what some of** 

### 15 **those numbers were. So that's on the docket on** 

### 16 **the transformer rulemaking if you look at our EEI** 

### 17 **comments, if you wanted to use some of that as** 

### 18 **historical reference.** 

### 19 **MR. MYER: Thank you for two** 

### 20 **specific places to look.** 

### 21 **If I could also ask, going back to** 

### 22 **the utility question, we have heard both from**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 297**  **1 Florida Power and Light that they have about**  

### 2 **850,000 fixtures. While the gentleman from** 

### 3 **Georgia Power is in the room, when we say** 

### 4 **"fixtures," when we hear these numbers quoted,** 

### 5 **is that just all HID? Or is that specifically** 

### 6 **metal halide? I'm just kind of trying to** 

### 7 **differentiate between the two.** 

### 8 **You know, if Georgia Power let's say** 

### 9 **had a million fixtures, is it really all metal** 

### 10 **halide, or is it a mixture of HID? And if it is** 

### 11 **a mixture, can it point us in a direction of a** 

### 12 **number for metal halide?** 

### 13 **Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. STEVENS: This is Mike Stevens,** 

### 15 **Georgia Power. It is all HID. Okay? I'll** 

### 16 **have to look up how much -- what percentage if** 

### 17 **metal halide. I mean, if I was going to gut it,** 

### 18 **I would say 15 percent.** 

### 19 **MR. MYER: One five is what you're** 

### 20 **saying.** 

### 21 **MR. STEVENS: Yes.** 

### 22 **MR. MYER: Thank you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 298**  **1 MR. STEVENS: But I can get you the**  

### 2 **info.** 

### 3 **MR. MYER: Thank you.** 

### 4 **Continuing on to the employment** 

### 5 **analysis, the employment analysis is an indirect** 

### 6 **assessment. I'm sorry, it's an assessment of** 

### 7 **indirect employment. It uses a model called the** 

### 8 **IMSET model. So this is the overall change,** 

### 9 **either net positive or net negative, in** 

### 10 **employment across the country as a result of the** 

### 11 **proposed TSL.** 

### 12 **So you are seeing two years of** 

### 13 **analysis here, 2017 and 2020. And this is** 

### 14 **broken down by TSL level with the proposed TSL** 

### 15 **3 highlighted here being TSL 3.** 

### 16 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve Rosenstock.** 

### 17 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 18 **EEI. So where we show low shipment and high** 

### 19 **shipment, going back to the MIA analysis, this** 

### 20 **is the low shipment, the most severe is on the** 

### 21 **left side, and the high shipments is the flat** 

### 22 **market. But I'm just trying to see if that's the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 299**  **1 direct comparison. Is that the modeling for**  

### 2 **this that is -- you know, it's low shipment,** 

### 3 **preservation of operation, profit markup,** 

### 4 **scenario versus high shipment, flat markup** 

### 5 **scenario. Are those the two scenarios you used** 

### 6 **for this employment analysis?** 

### 7 **MR. MYER: Well, this is separate** 

### 8 **from the MIA. However, both the MIA and this** 

### 9 **analysis used the same quantity of shipments in** 

### 10 **low and high, yes. But ours is not looking** 

### 11 **at -- this, again, is not on the manufacturers.** 

### 12 **This is just on the country. But, yes, the same** 

### 13 **shipment volume per year are the same, yes.** 

### 14 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, one thing** 

### 15 **that kind of struck me is, if I am -- again, this** 

### 16 **is a big assumption. If you are assuming, I'll** 

### 17 **say, the worst case in the low shipment scenario** 

### 18 **here, the most severe impact on the** 

### 19 **manufacturers -- again, I don't know that for a** 

### 20 **fact. I'm not sure if those are analogous or** 

### 21 **not, but I was just kind of surprised to say that** 

### 22 **if it is that scenario, low shipment, most**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 300**  **1 severe, preservation operation, profit markup,**  

### 2 **that there is more jobs created in the most** 

### 3 **severe impact in 2017 than in the least severe** 

### 4 **impact. I just find that rather surprising.** 

### 5 **I know it's indirect, but you have** 

### 6 **these manufacturers in the low shipment case** 

### 7 **being severely impacted and somehow that** 

### 8 **translates into job growth, more job growth. I** 

### 9 **have a hard time conceptually with that. These** 

### 10 **are indirect jobs, so what sector are these jobs** 

### 11 **being formed in, by the way?** 

### 12 **MR. MYER: Sure. The idea is that** 

### 13 **the operating costs -- that the savings that a** 

### 14 **site would save as a result of energy saved as** 

### 15 **a result of using more efficient equipment** 

### 16 **translates to operating cash for said company.** 

### 17 **So they could hire possibly an additional stock** 

### 18 **person, an additional accountant, and so on.** 

### 19 **So the reason why the -- also, I'd** 

### 20 **like to point out these numbers are, you know,** 

### 21 **outliers. They're on the low end of the model** 

### 22 **because we're talking across a 300 million**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 301**  **1 person country, that we are talking 76 jobs in**  

### 2 **2017. So it's on the low end of the model type** 

### 3 **thing.** 

### 4 **But this is essentially saying that** 

### 5 **if a company bought more efficient equipment,** 

### 6 **the capital that they are saving, the actual cash** 

### 7 **from -- by deferred maintenance and or** 

### 8 **electricity, whatever the inputs in the model** 

### 9 **are, that they would be able to use that cashflow** 

### 10 **for other things in their business for other** 

### 11 **jobs.** 

### 12 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Another -- one** 

### 13 **quick follow up question. Looking at Slide 56,** 

### 14 **looking at national economics discount at seven** 

### 15 **percent, in 2017 it is still showing that net** 

### 16 **present value is negative for all of these** 

### 17 **businesses. So how are they going to invest** 

### 18 **when their net present value still hasn't gotten** 

### 19 **positive until 2020?** 

### 20 **MR. MYER: I am not going to speak** 

### 21 **off the cuff at this time, but we'll look into** 

### 22 **that for you.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 302**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex.** 

### 3 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 4 **Boesenberg, NEMA. I guess my question is very** 

### 5 **similar to Mr. Rosenstock's. Okay. I don't** 

### 6 **own a company, but if this more efficient product** 

### 7 **allows me to cut my maintenance force, I don't** 

### 8 **see why I would then add a new accountant or a** 

### 9 **new personnel manager when I have reduced my** 

### 10 **employee base.** 

### 11 **It does seem counterintuitive, but** 

### 12 **this is one of those things I have questioned on** 

### 13 **every rulemaking. If we are getting rid of a** 

### 14 **third of the employees in the small businesses** 

### 15 **in this sector, I'm not sure where that is going** 

### 16 **to add jobs.** 

### 17 **MR. MORRIS: This is Scott Morris** 

### 18 **from Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.** 

### 19 **Keep in mind that this employment analysis** 

### 20 **specifically looks at the entire general** 

### 21 **economy, far outside of the limited scope of a** 

### 22 **utility or the immediate end user of the**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 303**  **1 equipment. It's the idea that with the money**  

### 2 **that you save in operating expenses with more** 

### 3 **efficient equipment that money can be put to** 

### 4 **different use within the general economy. Many** 

### 5 **of those uses are much more either** 

### 6 **labor-intensive than paying for electricity.** 

### 7 **And that's where job creation gets --** 

### 8 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is --** 

### 9 **MR. MORRIS: But, again, as Michael** 

### 10 **said, these numbers are extremely low and almost** 

### 11 **insignificant.** 

### 12 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 13 **Boesenberg. As a follow up, I guess, in other** 

### 14 **rulemakings where we have delved into this, have** 

### 15 **been more residential-oriented products. And I** 

### 16 **can sort of understand that if I save a little** 

### 17 **money on my monthly electric bill I will want to** 

### 18 **go out to eat or buy another T-shirt or** 

### 19 **something.** 

### 20 **I just -- as I already stated, this** 

### 21 **doesn't make sense from a commercial standpoint.** 

### 22 **A for-profit company, it's the shareholders**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 304**  **1 getting that benefit of the savings, not the**  

### 2 **general economy. Or am I just totally off?** 

### 3 **MR. HOWLEY: Just another reason it** 

### 4 **makes absolutely no sense at all is the -- some** 

### 5 **of these paybacks are 10 to 15 years. So if you** 

### 6 **had to buy this more expensive equipment, you are** 

### 7 **not getting all your money back for 15 years. So** 

### 8 **even the national economy is not saving anything** 

### 9 **for at least a decade. Everybody is negative by** 

### 10 **2017, so there is no jobs being added under --** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: That was Joe, and now** 

### 12 **to Louis.** 

### 13 **MR. STARR: This is Louis Starr with** 

### 14 **NEEA. NEEA does a lot of stuff with market** 

### 15 **transformation. We are involved a lot, in** 

### 16 **particular with industrial customers, trying to** 

### 17 **get them to do an energy efficiency project.** 

### 18 **And what we find is that we are competing with** 

### 19 **things needing to have two -- sometimes a year** 

### 20 **payback with energy inefficiency, because they** 

### 21 **take the capital and invest it in increasing** 

### 22 **their production.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 305**  **1 And increased production usually**  

### 2 **involves additional personnel. So I would say** 

### 3 **that's not unreasonable at all what they are** 

### 4 **trying to do there. They do not necessarily** 

### 5 **take the money.** 

### 6 **And the other thing is from an** 

### 7 **accounting standpoint, the money that stays** 

### 8 **inside the company, if you cut your operating** 

### 9 **costs, it stays inside the same pool, and it goes** 

### 10 **back in there. And some of it will be siphoned** 

### 11 **off in profit and profit share, but a lot of it** 

### 12 **gets reinvested to increasing your production.** 

### 13 **And so a lot of times that money** 

### 14 **is -- I mean, I think that's fairly reasonable,** 

### 15 **and maybe it should even be set up to a higher** 

### 16 **number than that. But, I mean, as a business,** 

### 17 **you guys -- you all run companies, if you have** 

### 18 **an extra -- if you save money on efficient** 

### 19 **lighting in your factories, where is that money** 

### 20 **going to go? Does it automatically go back to** 

### 21 **the shareholders or what --** 

### 22 **(Simultaneous speaking.)**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 306**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Cheryl English,**  

### 2 **you're next.** 

### 3 **MS. ENGLISH: Cheryl English,** 

### 4 **Acuity Brands. I realize that DOE has this** 

### 5 **mysterious model that you plug in a watt and out** 

### 6 **pops a job. But I have to say that from a** 

### 7 **business standpoint, that is not how we address** 

### 8 **hiring. And the model is what the model is; I** 

### 9 **don't fully understand it.** 

### 10 **But it would be interesting to see** 

### 11 **if DOE has plans in the future because** 

### 12 **uncertainty is the biggest thing that impacts** 

### 13 **our willingness to employ. And will these** 

### 14 **models be updated related to increased costs on** 

### 15 **manufacturers such as taxes and health care?** 

### 16 **MR. MYER: I think we will look into** 

### 17 **that, and we will address some of the comments** 

### 18 **we have heard.** 

### 19 **MR. BROOKMAN: Final comments on** 

### 20 **employment analysis, this table, before we move** 

### 21 **on. Here we go.** 

### 22 **MR. MYER: Thank you, Doug. So,**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 307**  **1 finally, we move into emissions analysis and**  

### 2 **monetization of emissions. So we look at the** 

### 3 **cumulative 30-year analysis period of the** 

### 4 **emissions reductions. We specifically are** 

### 5 **looking at carbon dioxide and nitrogen oxides.** 

### 6 **We have a whole different -- number** 

### 7 **of different types of emissions, either carbon** 

### 8 **dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, nitrous** 

### 9 **oxide, methane, sulfur dioxide. And the values** 

### 10 **in the right two columns, low shipments and high** 

### 11 **shipments, are the deferred emissions by the** 

### 12 **various weights for those type of emissions,** 

### 13 **cumulative, over 30 years.** 

### 14 **Mr. Rosenstock?** 

### 15 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 16 **EEI. I just want to say that I think for the** 

### 17 **final rule I think you are going to have to take** 

### 18 **that little EPA rule that came out last week as** 

### 19 **one possible impact on this number. That is for** 

### 20 **the new powerplant NSPS rule that came out last** 

### 21 **Friday.** 

### 22 **Next June, EPA is going to come out**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 308**  **1 with another rule on existing powerplants.**  

### 2 **That will have a dramatic impact on the CO 2**  

### 3 **number in this -- or any other rulemaking that** 

### 4 **is coming up.** 

### 5 **Also, just a lot of the other** 

### 6 **emissions -- for example, mercury -- the mercury** 

### 7 **rule that came out last year, in 2012, basically** 

### 8 **most powerplants that emit mercury will have to** 

### 9 **reduce their mercury emissions by I think** 

### 10 **it's -- and this is existing powerplants, at** 

### 11 **least 80 percent by the year 2016.** 

### 12 **SO and NO that are under the Clean 2 x**  

### 13 **Air Act, those emissions have been going down** 

### 14 **every year since 1990. And, again, those** 

### 15 **emissions will go down.** 

### 16 **The emissions per kilowatt hour have** 

### 17 **gone down by 75 percent over the last 20 years,** 

### 18 **and they will continue to go down. The EPA rules** 

### 19 **might accelerate it.** 

### 20 **So I note it is based on the current** 

### 21 **rules, but I think especially the combination of** 

### 22 **those rules and the upcoming rules are going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 309**  **1 have significant impact on the emissions per**  

### 2 **kilowatt hour. And I hope that it can be taken** 

### 3 **into account for the final rule, because next** 

### 4 **June the EPA is going to come out with a rule,** 

### 5 **and it will have a huge impact on this number.** 

### 6 **Thank you.** 

### 7 **MR. ALTMAN: This is Ari Altman from** 

### 8 **General Counsel's office. Now, I'm -- Steve,** 

### 9 **just to confirm, that's a proposed rule that EPA** 

### 10 **just proposed on Friday, right?** 

### 11 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Last Friday was a** 

### 12 **proposed rule. They are going to finalize it** 

### 13 **next year, and then it's up to them. The** 

### 14 **effective date will be X years after that,** 

### 15 **probably within one or two years basically.** 

### 16 **MR. ALTMAN: Just to clarify, in our** 

### 17 **models, for our rulemaking we cannot take into** 

### 18 **account proposed rules. So based on the timing** 

### 19 **of that rule, we won't -- and maybe it -- correct** 

### 20 **me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we can look** 

### 21 **at EPA's NOPR in the context of this rulemaking,** 

### 22 **because ours is actually further ahead than**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 310**  **1 theirs.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Alex, go ahead.** 

### 3 **MR. HOFMANN: Just real quick,** 

### 4 **wanted to note one of the unique things about the** 

### 5 **new source performance standards for CO, new 2**  

### 6 **source performance standard is unusual in that** 

### 7 **as soon as a rule is proposed it is effective.** 

### 8 **It's a strange --** 

### 9 **MR. ALTMAN: That doesn't make** 

### 10 **sense. A proposed rule is effective? It's not** 

### 11 **a final rule.** 

### 12 **MR. HOFMANN: It's not a final rule.** 

### 13 **There can still be changes in the final rule, but** 

### 14 **the emissions limits that are proposed are** 

### 15 **effective immediately on proposal. I'll submit** 

### 16 **some more information.** 

### 17 **MR. ALTMAN: Okay. We'll look at** 

### 18 **that. If that's true, that may be -- then maybe** 

### 19 **they're doing it differently than we are, but** 

### 20 **thanks.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thanks for that** 

### 22 **input. Steve?**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 311**  **1 MR. ROSENSTOCK: Well, again, the**  

### 2 **other possibility is, again, in terms of** 

### 3 **this -- in terms of the impact, though -- again,** 

### 4 **I'd have to double check, but there can always** 

### 5 **be a scenario analysis whereby this could be** 

### 6 **before the EPA rules, and then you can have** 

### 7 **another possible outcome based on -- I'll** 

### 8 **say -- I should say -- not scenario, sensitivity** 

### 9 **analysis, where a sensitivity analysis is the** 

### 10 **new -- the rules are finalized in 2017, 2018,** 

### 11 **which is 26 out of the 30-year period, which will** 

### 12 **have an impact on these numbers, and will have** 

### 13 **an impact on your estimated monetization.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay.** 

### 15 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Thank you.** 

### 16 **MR. MEYER: Thank you for your** 

### 17 **comments. The technical --** 

### 18 **MR. BROOKMAN: Mark has one more.** 

### 19 **MR. MYER: Oh.** 

### 20 **MR. DUFFY: Yes. I wanted to hear** 

### 21 **the rest of that. That was very interesting** 

### 22 **inputs. This is where I also will add the input**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 312**  **1 that if the emissions are based solely on the use**  

### 2 **phase, I would encourage that you add in the** 

### 3 **additional cost -- the additional emissions that** 

### 4 **will be produced by the manufacturers to produce** 

### 5 **the larger products that are being requested** 

### 6 **here.** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Great. Thank you.** 

### 8 **MR. MYER: As a request, do you** 

### 9 **have --if you could provide it in your** 

### 10 **comments -- the estimate of what the additional** 

### 11 **energy use to produce said new fixtures would be** 

### 12 **versus over the -- I guess the incremental** 

### 13 **increase. We can do certain things, but** 

### 14 **if -- it's just sometimes a guess or an estimate** 

### 15 **without your input.** 

### 16 **MR. DUFFY: There has been a** 

### 17 **discussion at lunchtime, and NEMA intends to** 

### 18 **take a look at what -- at the carbon footprint.** 

### 19 **MR. MYER: Thank you.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Joe** 

### 21 **Hancock has raised his hand. Joe, you're on.** 

### 22 **MR. HANCOCK: Hi. Thank you very**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 313**  **1 much. I get a little bit confused when I start**  

### 2 **seeing these carbon footprints, at least for our** 

### 3 **company and our -- we actually provide service** 

### 4 **to about 850,000 lights total, including the** 

### 5 **energy-only.** 

### 6 **We are basically nuke. Is** 

### 7 **that -- is nuclear taken into consideration as,** 

### 8 **you know, this is night-time load at least for** 

### 9 **street lighting, and most of us are not burning** 

### 10 **oil to light these lights?** 

### 11 **MR. MYER: It does take into account** 

### 12 **of different fuel mixes, yes. I would --** 

### 13 **MR. HANCOCK: Okay.** 

### 14 **MR. MYER: -- like to look at the** 

### 15 **sensitivity of the model, whether or not it is** 

### 16 **time of use dependent and what the -- if the usage** 

### 17 **shifts based on time of usage. But I --** 

### 18 **MR. HANCOCK: Yes. That is very** 

### 19 **significant. At night, we are almost entirely** 

### 20 **running on nuke.** 

### 21 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 22 **MR. MYER: We will look into that.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 314**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Yes.**  

### 2 **MR. HANCOCK: Yes, sir. Thank you.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 4 **EEI. There was a record amount of wind** 

### 5 **generation installed in the U.S. last year,** 

### 6 **about 13,000 megawatts. And there are certain** 

### 7 **parts of the country now -- I know Texas and** 

### 8 **many -- there are certain states and certain** 

### 9 **parts of the country where the wind generation** 

### 10 **is well over 30 percent during certain times of** 

### 11 **the day, and the wind generation tends to peak** 

### 12 **during the nighttime hours.** 

### 13 **Thank you.** 

### 14 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 15 **MR. MYER: Moving on to the** 

### 16 **regulatory impact analysis, so this is** 

### 17 **essentially the final analysis that we present** 

### 18 **in the NOPR. This is in the event of an absence** 

### 19 **of a standard, essentially. So we look at six** 

### 20 **different scenarios, one being no new regulatory** 

### 21 **action, one being customer rebates, one being** 

### 22 **customer tax credits, another being**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 315**  **1 manufacturer tax credits. Finally, voluntary**  

### 2 **energy efficiency programs, and then bulk** 

### 3 **government purchases.** 

### 4 **Then, we run a variation of the model** 

### 5 **trying to estimate what the effects of each of** 

### 6 **these six scenarios would be, and whether or not** 

### 7 **it is greater for -- against a standard versus** 

### 8 **any of these six. The standard does save more** 

### 9 **energy than any of these six, the proposed** 

### 10 **standard.** 

### 11 **MR. BROOKMAN: Comments here?** 

### 12 **Alex?** 

### 13 **MR. BOESENBERG: This is Alex** 

### 14 **Boesenberg from NEMA. I would repeat my request** 

### 15 **from the last public meeting I was at. I would** 

### 16 **like to know by what criteria the Secretary will** 

### 17 **find no new regulatory action. I was told at the** 

### 18 **last public meeting there had been one in years** 

### 19 **past, but I have yet to receive that information.** 

### 20 **We are very interested in finding out what** 

### 21 **is needed to justify no new regulation, the** 

### 22 **overwhelming tendency to be -- there just has to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 316**  **1 be one, we are not looking hard enough. I think**  

### 2 **we saw some of the analysis already today that** 

### 3 **shows very little difference from not doing** 

### 4 **anything at all.** 

### 5 **And bearing in mind all of the** 

### 6 **changes in employment that will happen in the** 

### 7 **manufacturing, the diversion from investment in** 

### 8 **the new technologies for the companies who** 

### 9 **decide to remain players in metal halide, it just** 

### 10 **doesn't add up. But the perception is we are** 

### 11 **going for a rule no matter what. But if there** 

### 12 **are no clearly defined parameters, it is almost** 

### 13 **as though DOE is not able to suggest no new** 

### 14 **regulation, because it's not identified.** 

### 15 **So we sympathize with your plight.** 

### 16 **We would like to know what those parameters are.** 

### 17 **MR. BROOKMAN: Lucy.** 

### 18 **MS. DeBUTTS: We'll come back to you** 

### 19 **on that one. As I said --** 

### 20 **MR. BOESENBERG: You said that last** 

### 21 **time.** 

### 22 **MS. DeBUTTS: I think those**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 317**  **1 exchanges we had, you and I, last time as well.**  

### 2 **But we will revisit that and talk to you about** 

### 3 **this in some form later.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Additional** 

### 5 **thoughts/comments on regulatory impact** 

### 6 **analysis?** 

### 7 **(No response.)** 

### 8 **MR. MYER: I'd like to touch on one** 

### 9 **additional slide. These are some potential** 

### 10 **updates for the final rule, so we are moving into** 

### 11 **the final rule phase after this. There are some** 

### 12 **time-dependent updates that occur** 

### 13 **normally -- electricity prices, sales tax. But** 

### 14 **then there are also four parameters that I did** 

### 15 **want to identify that we are considering modest** 

### 16 **changes to.** 

### 17 **These also have actually come from** 

### 18 **additional comments that we have heard earlier** 

### 19 **about the three other rules. The HID standard** 

### 20 **rule, there is a lot of overlap between that rule** 

### 21 **and this rule, and so some of these are just** 

### 22 **trying to harmonize the two rules where**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 318**  **1 possible. Again, that was a comment we received**  

### 2 **earlier this morning, as well as other times.** 

### 3 **So one is that the shipments, in** 

### 4 **addition to any comment you receive today, we are** 

### 5 **considering slightly reducing the shipments** 

### 6 **starting point based on some other data that we** 

### 7 **have seen. The NEMA lamp shipment index** 

### 8 **recently is just kind of an indication that there** 

### 9 **is fewer lamps right now, and fewer lamps means** 

### 10 **fewer fixtures.** 

### 11 **Another one is a small modification** 

### 12 **to outdoor operating hours. This is really just** 

### 13 **a differentiation between HID versus metal** 

### 14 **halide. The numbers are very similar, but we** 

### 15 **are just trying to -- this, again, is a** 

### 16 **harmonization difference. Labor rates, we have** 

### 17 **heard a lot of comments from GE and other people** 

### 18 **on labor rates.** 

### 19 **In the HID interim analysis, we were** 

### 20 **asked to look at not only RS-Means as an** 

### 21 **estimating guide but also combine it with Sweets** 

### 22 **or other guides, or other sources for labor**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 319**  **1 estimates. We are still in the process of that,**  

### 2 **and there has been a great number of discussions** 

### 3 **today about labor rates. So we will definitely** 

### 4 **include those there as well.** 

### 5 **And then, finally, there is expected** 

### 6 **some small modifications to discount rates.** 

### 7 **Again, this is a harmonization between the two** 

### 8 **rules.** 

### 9 **Joe?** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Joe.** 

### 11 **MR. HOWLEY: Just an overall** 

### 12 **comment is that you have also heard a tremendous** 

### 13 **amount of comments today, a lot of them dealing** 

### 14 **with just economic changes, things that were** 

### 15 **very different than what you modeled, where we** 

### 16 **believe you just simply got it wrong. And, you** 

### 17 **know, a whole new analysis from our point of view** 

### 18 **needs to be conducted here, using all of the** 

### 19 **input that you receive today.** 

### 20 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Lucy?** 

### 21 **MS. DeBUTTS: Lucy deButts. Yes,** 

### 22 **these are not the only factors that are going to**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 320**  **1 be updated. That's why we're collecting**  

### 2 **comments, and we appreciate your written** 

### 3 **responses as well.** 

### 4 **MR. MYER: At this time, I'm going** 

### 5 **to return the presentation to Matthew Walker** 

### 6 **from Navigant, who will discuss proposed energy** 

### 7 **conservation standards.** 

### 8 **MR. WALKER: Hi. Matthew Walker,** 

### 9 **Navigant. So this slide presents the proposed** 

### 10 **standard TSL 3, and we've already kind of covered** 

### 11 **this before. EL2 for all equipment classes,** 

### 12 **except for the 100- to 150-watt grouping, with** 

### 13 **the design standard at the highest wattage** 

### 14 **range.** 

### 15 **Then, a quick overview of the** 

### 16 **impacts of the proposed rule. Cumulative** 

### 17 **energy savings are between .8 and 1.1 quads over** 

### 18 **the 30-year analysis period. Cost savings to** 

### 19 **consumers as a group, .95 to 3.2 billion. Then,** 

### 20 **looking at environmental benefits, the** 

### 21 **monetization of those carbon dioxide emission** 

### 22 **reductions is estimated between $.33 and $4.7**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 321**  **1 billion.**  

### 2 **MR. BROOKMAN: Steve.** 

### 3 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Steve Rosenstock,** 

### 4 **EEI. The value for CO, that is using the 2**  

### 5 **2013 -- I guess that's using the 2013 social cost** 

### 6 **for carbon?** 

### 7 **MR. BROOKMAN: Michael Myer.** 

### 8 **MR. MYER: Yes. I would actually** 

### 9 **defer you to the document -- I'm sorry, the** 

### 10 **Technical Support Document. There is a range of** 

### 11 **values listed, so I don't want to speak off the** 

### 12 **cuff because it's probably the 2013, but it's** 

### 13 **also probably, at a given scenario, there are** 

### 14 **different discount rates. That's what I'm** 

### 15 **trying to say.** 

### 16 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: I know. I know.** 

### 17 **MR. MYER: There is like seven** 

### 18 **values listed, and depending on which one you** 

### 19 **pick -- so, in the Technical Support Document,** 

### 20 **as well as the guidance regarding monetization,** 

### 21 **some of your earlier comments, we actually do** 

### 22 **actively update that probably more than some of**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 322**  **1 the other things on a frequent basis. So I'd**  

### 2 **defer you there for the exact answer, but I** 

### 3 **believe you are correct.** 

### 4 **MR. ROSENSTOCK: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 5 **And there is another rulemaking where that has** 

### 6 **been issues about the use and social cost of** 

### 7 **carbon. I think that -- I think there is a lot** 

### 8 **of -- you know, there is concern about the values** 

### 9 **being shown and highlighted and especially at** 

### 10 **the upper end where that $4.7 billion basically** 

### 11 **represents an estimated cost of like $120,** 

### 12 **starting in 2015, and then only escalating over** 

### 13 **time.** 

### 14 **And, you know, it's -- and it shows** 

### 15 **it's even higher that that -- that is even higher** 

### 16 **than the $3.2 billion at the -- you know, the** 

### 17 **three percent discount rate. And we have a lot** 

### 18 **of concerns about, number one, what happens when** 

### 19 **you are using this upper end of the range and it** 

### 20 **is being shown as value as a benefit that** 

### 21 **consumers are not going to see. And it** 

### 22 **obviously could have a very big impact on the TSL**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 323**  **1 that is -- I mean, the efficiency level that is**  

### 2 **chosen.** 

### 3 **Thank you.** 

### 4 **MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you. Let's go** 

### 5 **to the final comment box.** 

### 6 **MR. WALKER: All right. This issue** 

### 7 **just generally is asking for any additional** 

### 8 **thoughts that anyone has on the proposed** 

### 9 **standard TSL 3.** 

### 10 **MR. BROOKMAN: Keith. And also,** 

### 11 **this is an opportunity for anybody that wishes** 

### 12 **to raise any additional issues, as we promised** 

### 13 **this morning, any final comments. Keith.** 

### 14 **MR. KEITH COOK: I just -- this is** 

### 15 **Keith Cook from Philips. I just want to** 

### 16 **reiterate that as I understand the process there** 

### 17 **is really only two criteria that determines a** 

### 18 **rulemaking, and that is economic justification** 

### 19 **and technical feasibility. And at this point,** 

### 20 **I don't believe that the technical feasibility** 

### 21 **has been proven, since it is all based upon a** 

### 22 **subjective model that is easily changed.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 324**  **1 MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.**  

### 2 **Yes, Doug.** 

### 3 **MR. YATES: Doug Yates, Musco.** 

### 4 **Follow up on those comments. I would also like** 

### 5 **to reiterate that I do not believe that anything** 

### 6 **larger than 1,000 watts should be included.** 

### 7 **Again, back to the technical** 

### 8 **feasibility, it is I think pretty clear in the** 

### 9 **market there is no commercially available** 

### 10 **pulse-start ballasts or lamps. So to include** 

### 11 **greater than 1,000 watts would be inappropriate** 

### 12 **with this standard.** 

### 13 **MR. BROOKMAN: Okay. Thank you.** 

### 14 **Additional comments?** 

### 15 **(No response.)** 

### 16 **As we move towards closing, I will** 

### 17 **just -- so then for my part, I thank all of you.** 

### 18 **Very, very productive meeting. Thanks to** 

### 19 **everyone who joined us via the web, and safe** 

### 20 **travels to all.** 

### 21 **I'll turn it back to Lucy deButts for** 

### 22 **closing remarks.**

### 202-234-4433 **Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 325**  **1 MS. DeBUTTS: Yes. I would like to**  

### 2 **thank everyone as well. I think we have heard** 

### 3 **a lot of information that is going to be very** 

### 4 **beneficial to everyone.** 

### 5 **I do encourage you to submit written** 

### 6 **comments. They are important to us. And I hope** 

### 7 **we can take you all on your offers to have** 

### 8 **one-on-one conversations with the team members.** 

### 9 **Other than that, we'll talk to you** 

### 10 **soon, and thanks for coming.** 

### 11 **(Whereupon, at 3:27 p.m., the** 

### 12 **proceedings in the foregoing matter were** 

### 13 **concluded.)** 

### 14 **15 16**  **17 18**  **19 20**  **21 22** 

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 326 A ability 33:16 196:16 216:20 218:12,15 272:3 able 11:11 16:14

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115:15,16,18,22 127:12 158:19,20 161:14 163:12 168:17 169:4,5 238:16 240:1 250:7 324:6,11 1,000-watt 15:5

107:20,22 118:12 170:13 223:10,15 223:17 246:17 1,100223:14

224:12 1,500 118:10

182:21 1,500-watt 16:3,4

16:13 107:22 239:20 1.055 176:5 1.1 320:17 1.2 117:3 1.8 117:4 1:00 185:11,14 1:13 186:2 1043:16 59:8 91:13

102:8 123:6,16 126:7 184:14 185:11,13 223:11 229:11 230:4 231:3 234:21 241:5 247:11,21 252:16 260:5 262:7,10 263:6 286:11 304:5 10,000262:9 10,000-volt233:14

233:16 10:54 123:21 100 30:11 39:22

40:7 66:12 106:20 110:17 111:15 120:17 132:22,22 228:3,7 320:12 100,00072:15 100-hour 110:7 100/150213:3,5 1000 1:11 103 3:8 11 175:21 176:11

177:2,3 178:2,10 231:3 278:17 11,700 182:4 11:00 9:20 122:20

123:6,17 11:11 123:22 12 198:16 199:5

201:11,21,22 12,000 182:2 12:00 184:14 12:00-12:15 10:2 12:30 123:10 12098:18 126:6 120-volt 188:1 125 3:10 13 99:19 13,000 314:6 130 117:2 14230:4 242:20 14-year59:7 15 18:17 39:9 123:5

155:5 160:7 220:4 257:19 258:3 262:17 297:18 304:5,7 15047:3,4 51:4

77:11 106:22 107:6,8 108:16,18 109:17 111:21 112:5,9 113:12 116:13,14,17 117:4,7 127:12 132:22,22 133:10 133:17 134:22 135:11 136:3,4,8 142:16 162:21,22 163:22 179:17 227:19 228:5,6 241:12 250:20 150-volt77:12 150-watt32:7,13

33:18 34:6 37:12 47:7,20 48:13,16 49:8 77:12 106:17 106:20,21 109:9 109:13 110:13,16 110:17,22 111:4 111:16,16 112:1 113:18 118:1 134:2 135:18 228:22 273:12,16 273:21 274:1 320:12 1500 129:15,18 1500-watt 129:12 155 134:19 1554 173:3 1598 102:8 16224:5 170-watt34:2 175 109:11 117:2

117:22 134:22 135:18 136:2 175-watt51:6

116:13 273:15,18 1990 308:14 2 240:15 113:11 158:17 211:9 212:18 271:9,10 308:2,12 310:5 321:4 2,00047:19 130:2 158:14 2,000-watt 107:16 179:19 212:2 2.3 209:17 2.5 209:18 20 59:12 76:3 106:9 125:20 196:22 197:5,10 207:7 229:15 242:21 260:3 267:15,21 308:17 20,000-hour 171:3 200 134:20 246:19 200-watt34:2 133:17 2005 51:18 200642:7 151:19

256:11,19 257:2 200720:12 21:4

38:11 45:21 46:20 93:8 109:12

### 202-234-4433 Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc. Page 369 126:21 133:9 135:11 136:8 179:7,14 2008 39:11,17,22

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308:7 2013 1:8 4:9 12:21 13:7 40:13,14 41:10 44:9 181:4 321:5,5,12 201444:11 2015 19:19 25:3

27:12 45:2,6,18 87:3 152:13 155:22 322:12 2016 308:11 2017298:13 300:3

301:2,15 304:10 311:10 2018 311:10 2020298:13 301:19 2040256:11 2042 151:20 208 98:18 21 241:15 21st 12:21 13:7 22 128:10 129:5 131:4 222 3:14 228 3:16 24 36:3 159:5 161:16 24098:18 25 51:18 59:13 128:21 135:19 192:3 229:16 239:12 242:21 267:21 250 126:20 127:12 132:22,22 134:6 139:3,11 163:22 250-watt 106:22 137:20 138:21,22 241:15 292:13,22 26 167:8,17 180:11 184:10 311:11 269 3:18 27 1:8 124:7 27th4:9 277 81:15 98:18 126:6 277-volt77:13 28 204:14 207:4 280239:19 3 3 211:4,17 212:5

214:5,9 215:6 228:21 271:9,16 276:14,22 279:11 280:8,10 286:1 298:15,15 320:10 323:9 3.2 320:19 3:00 123:9 3:27 325:11 30 151:10,15,18

242:16 256:1 267:5 307:13 314:10 30-year237:5

267:3,8 307:3 311:11 320:18 300246:19 300:22 31 239:10 319 3:19 32028:3 30:12 324 3:22 33 320:22 350 161:13 239:2,9

239:18 36 180:20 39 192:3 4 4 3:4 39:9 134:12 141:22 164:3 188:11 210:22 238:19 243:15 290:17 40 160:8,11 186:4,7

239:21 40,000230:18 400 127:12 162:22 163:14 164:15 173:4,7 192:2 193:18,19 400-watt28:3,9

30:13,19 139:12 162:22 163:11 164:1 188:6 189:7 191:13 204:4 41 187:4 430 173:7 46 3:7 48098:9 99:4 100:1 126:3 129:15 130:16 480-volt35:15,16

47:17 48:6 53:6 98:15 129:9 209:2 209:3,16 480-watt47:7 5 5 83:14 122:20

210:20 214:2 280:17 281:8,14 5.6 181:17 50 16:7 39:14 47:19

48:1 106:19 129:14 132:21 134:2,4 137:10 166:9 227:20 50,000230:18 50047:3,4 107:16 109:11 130:2 133:10 134:5 158:14,19 160:7 179:18 212:1 287:12 500-watt 132:22 134:7 137:11 54288:10 289:3 555 181:6 56 301:13 6 6209:4,6,14 210:1 6,000-hour 170:20

171:5 6,836223:16 6-month40:14 60 155:6 242:16 7 7,000238:19 70 127:11,19 163:10,14,21 223:4 70-watt 128:12,16 141:16 253:6 255:18 75 308:17 75-watt250:7 750 32:11 287:11 750-watt37:5 76 36:1 301:1 78 141:17 8 8 201:16 320:17 8E-089 1:11 8073:5 308:11 82 141:17 147:4 85 117:5 850,000205:18

297:2 313:4 88 33:2 38:16 50:4

67:8 109:15 111:4 111:17 112:10 126:21 133:16,20 135:3,10,12 139:1 165:10 88.0 38:17 89.7s79:6 9 9,000 182:3 9:00 1:12 4:2 9028:5 51:4 73:5

79:7 165:11 221:1 90.079:7 91 90:14 137:19 91.5 85:17 9250:2 92.5 38:21 92.6 32:17 38:20 92.7 38:21 95 320:19 99 34:9 35:1,19

91:4,8 92:1 93:18 93:20NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com C E R T I F I C A T E

This is to certify that the foregoing transcript

In the matter of:

Before:

Date:

Place:

was duly recorded and accurately transcribed under my direction; further, that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.

----------------------- Court Reporter 370

Metal Halide Lamp Fixtures

US DOE

09-27-13

Washington, DC