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 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

 APPLIANCE STANDARDS AND RULEMAKING

 FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING

 950 L'Enfant Plaza

 Room 6075

 Washington, D.C. 20585

 Wednesday, July 10, 2013

 9:10 a.m.

Reported by: Natalia Thomas,

 Capital Reporting Company
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 PARTICIPANTS

3 Karim Amrane (Air-Conditioning, Heating and

4 Refrigeration Institute)

5 Laura Barhydt (U.S. Department of Energy)

6 John Bean (Schneider Electric)

7 Rod Beever (United CoolAir Corp.)

8 Stuart Dill (Schneider Electric)

9 Kevin Eicher (Friedrich Air Conditioning Co.)

10 Jeremiah Freeman (New West Technologies, LLC)

11 Kevin Grundy (Change'Air Products & Services LTD)

12 Emily Marchetti (U.S. Department of Energy)

13 Ted Marwitz (Data Aire, Inc.)

14 Michael Rivest (U.S. Department of Energy)

15 Wes Roan (Bard Manufacturing Company, Inc.)

16 Corey Tucker (U.S. Department of Energy)

17 Yoolanda Williams (General Electric)

18 Dave Winningham (Allied Air Enterprises)

19

20

21

22
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. BARHYDT: Hello. This is Laura Barhydt

3 with U.S. Department of Energy. Thank you all for

4 participating. Currently, we have you all unmuted.

5 So if everybody could just perhaps give a resounding

6 "Yes," you can hear me? I know everybody does not

7 have their phones muted.

8 MS. TUCKER: Yep.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But you can actually

10 hear me? Okay. Well, we're going to mute people.

11 And what we need you to do is if you want to talk, you

12 need to raise your hand using the webinar interface.

13 Go ahead.

14 We will get everybody muted here in just a

15 second.

16 (Pause.)

17 Okay. So today, we're going to be talking about the

18 basic model definitions for SPVUs and CRACs. So what

19 we had so far for the basic model definition for SPVUs

20 is that a basic model means all systems of a given

21 type of covered product or class thereof having the

22 same primary energy source, electric or gas, and which
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1 have the same or comparably performing compressors,

2 condensing coils, evaporator coils, and air-moving

3 systems that have a cooling capacity within 1,500 Btu

4 per hour of one another.

5 And then the real issue today is to discuss

6 what options and/or features may need differential

7 treatment, either through test procedures, enforcement

8 guidance, or some other mechanism.

9 And the list we have up on the screen right

10 now was the list that we had been given previously.

11 So what we're hoping to do is step through each of

12 these for SPVUs. And then we're going to do the exact

13 same thing for the computer room air conditioners.

14 And what we'd like to know is how common these

15 features are in the installed products, how much of an

16 impact they have in the performance under the test

17 procedure, if there are any testing issues in actually

18 using the test procedure to test units that have these

19 features, that type of information.

20 So are you ready, Corey?

21 MS. TUCKER: Yep.

22 MS. BARHYDT: So for copper evaporator
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1 coils, we're going to need a lot of people raising

2 hands on here. And maybe we can keep Karim unmuted.

3 And he can call on people that he knows are

4 participating if we don't get enough volunteers.

5 So the first issue is, what is the impact of

6 copper evaporator coils when using the DOE test

7 procedure on the measured energies?

8 MR. AMRANE: Laura, this is Karim. Are you

9 hearing me?

10 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

11 MR. AMRANE: Okay. I think to start the

12 discussion, the group was hashing what was discussed

13 two weeks ago with the other manufacturers. I think

14 we need to start from what already have that we agreed

15 to last week or two weeks ago and then start from

16 there because I think we have discussed and the

17 Department has taken a position on that.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

19 MR. AMRANE: And maybe that is where we

20 should be starting the discussion.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So my concern with that is

22 twofold. One, there is a different test procedure.
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1 And so it may not present the same issues.

2 And then the second is that for these

3 products, potentially the energy impact and the

4 frequency or prevalence of each of these features may

5 be different in SPVUs. Sorry. I have switched from

6 SPVUs to CRAC. So sorry. Let me go back. We are

7 doing the SPVUs first.

8 So I think from our perspective, it is not

9 necessarily one-to-one from what we discussed before

10 to these products.

11 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Well, okay. The

12 feedback I received from the manufacturers is that

13 those products are very similar. And the test

14 procedure, by the way, is very similar. You know,

15 both of them, those are two different AHRI standards,

16 but they make reference to the same actuary test

17 method, method of test. So, again, there is a lot of

18 similarity here. And I just didn't want to waste a lot

19 of time on issues that you have already ruled out.

20 For example, in the case of poor portal, you are

21 saying that the Department -- you know, those would be

22 subject to testing. So I don't think that it's worth
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1 discussing it here as well. I mean, you have made a

2 decision to the other project. I think we should

3 follow the same logic here.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. AMRANE: That's all. I mean --

6 MS. BARHYDT: So are there particular

7 features that you do want to discuss for these?

8 MR. AMRANE: Yes. I think as a starting

9 point, we want the features that were discussed last

10 week or two weeks ago that were, I guess, accepted by

11 the Department. Then we want those features to apply

12 as well to SPVUs.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So can you pull up the

14 discussion from last time?

15 MS. TUCKER: Yes. It's on like several

16 slides.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Right. So for SPVUs, do SPVUs

18 have economizers?

19 MR. AMRANE: Yes, they do.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And how common are they in the

21 install base?

22 MR. AMRANE: Again, I mean, I cannot answer
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1 that question, but I think it is dictated most of the

2 time by the codes. And, you know, those SPVUs fall

3 under the same requirement as the other product, as

4 far as ASHRAE 90.1 is concerned. And this is where

5 the economizer is required, to ASHRAE 90.1. So there

6 is no distinction in ASHRAE 90.1 between SPVU and the

7 other equipment we discussed last week.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --

9 MR. AMRANE: So they would be subject to the

10 same kind of --

11 MS. BARHYDT: So, Karim, you're saying that

12 even though it's different, AHRI standards that are

13 incorporated by reference since they're both building

14 off of 90.1, that the same issues that occur with the

15 unitary for economizers, those same issues exist for

16 testing SPVUs that have economizers?

17 MR. AMRANE: Absolutely. As I said, the

18 test procedure, although it's a different standard, is

19 very similar. So there are some differences. We

20 don't have an IE metric, for example, for SPVU. We

21 have the old IPLV. But other than that, it's the same

22 condition. It's very similar.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And for the ventilation

2 energy recovery systems, do those exist in SPVUs?

3 MR. AMRANE: They do as well.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And do same conditions

5 exist? And I kind of get the idea that you don't

6 exactly want to walk through each of these, but I

7 think it would be helpful to us if we did.

8 MR. AMRANE: And that's fine. I think some

9 of the manufacturers should be on the call and they

10 should be able to weigh in the discussion because they

11 make the product. They are more familiar than I on

12 exactly how they do it. So I guess we need to open up

13 the discussion to all the manufacturers.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So if anyone has some

15 insight on economizers or ventilation energy recovery

16 systems?

17 (No response.)

18 The ventilation energy recovery systems are described

19 as an assembly that preconditions outdoor air entering

20 the equipment through direct or indirect thermal

21 and/or moisture exchange with the exhaust air, which

22 is defined as the building air being exhausted to the
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1 outside from the equipment. And so far, we still have

2 no one raising their hand.

3 MS. MARCHETTI: Wes.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Wes? Okay.

5 MR. ROAN: Yes, yes. This is Wes Roan from

6 Bard Manufacturing. We absolutely produce and others

7 in our group produce units with both economizers and

8 ventilation energy recovery systems. They operate

9 very similar to unitary-type units. And this

10 description, as far as I'm concerned, is acceptable.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And can you speak to

12 how common these are in the units that you actually

13 ship?

14 MR. ROAN: I don't have the exact

15 percentages. Certainly with economizers, that is a

16 growing thing because more codes are requiring them.

17 Energy recovery is somewhat geographically an issue.

18 You know, it's more of an issue in the Southern states

19 than it is the Northern states, but it is something

20 that we commonly do. I mean, it's not something we do

21 two a year of.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else with any
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1 other thoughts or input on those before we move on?

2 (No response.)

3 No one else is raising their hand. Okay.

4 So the next slide has three more: process

5 heat recovery; reclaim coils, thermal storage, coated

6 coils; and correction capacitors. For correction

7 capacitors, I believe we said that we would deal with

8 that through test procedure clarification, but for the

9 process heat recovery and reclaim coils, thermal

10 storage, and coated coils for unitary, we were taking

11 a different approach that I think it would be useful

12 for us to get input on both of these. So do you use

13 these in SPVUs? And are there similar testing issues

14 that arise as a result of the similarity of the test

15 procedure to the unitary test procedure? Is Wes still

16 on mute?

17 MS. MARCHETTI: Now he is.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Wes, since you volunteered --

19 MR. ROAN: This is Wes.

20 MS. BARHYDT: There you go.

21 MR. ROAN: Yes. I can speak to the center

22 with the coated coils. That is a common thing for
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1 hazardous areas, such as coastal environments and

2 other things, other areas that have hazardous air

3 flows. And, just like unitary has the same effect on

4 our equipment, it has the slight degradation of

5 performance initially because of the coating. Long

6 term, it's absolutely the right thing to do because

7 your bins don't degrade and corrode off of the coil.

8 So we do the same. It's the same type of process as

9 unitaries use.

10 And I really can't speak to the other two

11 because we don't produce anything currently that uses

12 those.

13 MS. BARHYDT: For the coated coils, how

14 often are the SPVUs installed in areas where coated

15 coils are needed?

16 MR. ROAN: Well, again, I don't have any

17 percentages, but it's any time you have a coastal

18 environment, any time you have a unit in an industrial

19 setting, where there are chemicals, like a paper mill,

20 for instance, would definitely have them. So, I mean,

21 we do produce units with coated coils on a regular

22 basis.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. For the process heat

2 recovery; reclaim coils, thermal storage, is there

3 anybody on the phone who actually uses any of those in

4 their SPVUs?

5 MS. MARCHETTI: Ashley is unmuted.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So we're not hearing

7 that anyone currently uses those on their SPVUs.

8 Let's go on to the next slide.

9 MS. TUCKER: Should we get rid of that off

10 the list?

11 MS. BARHYDT: Not for now.

12 MS. TUCKER: That's the next slide.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, that's the next slide.

14 Okay. So hail guards. Do SPVUs use hail guards? No

15 comment.

16 MS. MARCHETTI: Dave Winningham.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Dave Winningham, you are

18 unmuted.

19 MR. WINNINGHAM: You have product. You have

20 sell it with product.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So can you try moving the

22 phone back a little or -- I'm not exactly sure. We're
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1 getting feedback when you speak.

2 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. I'm talking through

3 my computer. I have it on the phone, but I'm not sure

4 I could get a box to the phone.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Try it through the phone.

6 MR. WINNINGHAM: Okay. Hold on.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. No problem.

8 (Pause.)

9 MR. FREEMAN: Hey, Dave. This is Jeremiah.

10 Can you please go to your webinar tool and under the

11 audio dropdown select the telephone button? And then

12 you will see an audio pin displayed there that you

13 will have to enter to be unmuted on the phone.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Now give it a try.

15 Nope.

16 Okay. Dave? We're not getting an echo now.

17 Can you actually hear us? And are you able to speak

18 on the phone?

19 I think we might have lost you, Dave. So

20 I'm going to go ahead and go forward a little bit, but

21 we'll come back to this because we do want to make

22 sure we get your comments on the record. So if there
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1 is anyone who has hail guards that they install on

2 their SPVUs, please let us know.

3 For dehumidification components, is there

4 anyone who installs these on their SPVUs?

5 MR. ROAN: This is Wes again. Can you hear

6 me?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Yep.

8 MR. ROAN: Okay. We definitely have this

9 accessory as well and, again, as needed, but it is

10 definitely an option that is offered in many SPVUs.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And how would we

12 determine whether a unit had dehumidification

13 components? Is that something that is in the model

14 numbers? Is it clearly delineated as a separate

15 feature that someone would order?

16 MR. ROAN: Yes. It's a separate feature

17 that would be in a model number or it could be field18 installed. So if it is field-installed, it will not

19 show up in a model number.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. If it is field21 installed, is it shipped from you or is this an

22 aftermarket from a third party?
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1 MR. ROAN: No. It would be shipped from us.

2 MS. BARHYDT: It would be shipped from you?

3 Okay. And if it is field-installed and it is shipped

4 from you, is that something that someone then orders

5 separately as a separate component to add on?

6 MR. ROAN: Well, in our particular

7 situation, they can order it factory-installed and it

8 would come to them installed and operational or they

9 can order it as an accessory and then do it themselves

10 in the field.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I understand. And is

12 the description that we have for dehumidification

13 components sufficient to describe the products that

14 you would offer for dehumidification?

15 MR. ROAN: With one exception that I can

16 see, that some manufacturers, instead of desiccant

17 wheels, they use a plate type of device, not an actual

18 wheel. We don't do that currently, but I know others

19 do.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Is there a term of art that is

21 used to describe that?

22 MR. ROAN: Yes, there is. It's not on the
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1 tip of my tongue. Karim, do you know that?

2 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I don't, but we

3 can get back to you, Laura, with maybe an explanation

4 or definition.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. That would be helpful.

6 Thank you.

7 Indoor fan motors. Do you use VFDs on

8 SPVUs?

9 MR. ROAN: We, along with several others,

10 have variable-speed products, variable-speed indoor

11 motors, but they're -- you either do or you don't. We

12 don't have it as an option. It's part of our rated

13 unit or it is not a part of our rated unit --

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

15 MR. ROAN: -- if that is what this is

16 dealing with.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So in that case, it

18 would be part of just the standard model design. Is

19 that --

20 MR. ROAN: Exactly. That is how we would

21 address it. I don't know if anyone else has a

22 different opinion, but that is how we would address
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1 it.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Does anyone else have any

3 thoughts on that?

4 (No response.)

5 MS. BARHYDT: No? Let's try going back to

6 Dave and see if we've got good phone now.

7 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. Sorry about that. I

8 would agree with Wes' position. Typically, those are

9 for a larger commercial product than SPVU-type

10 product. And if we were to use it, it would be

11 integral to the product.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And if you want to go

13 back to hail guards?

14 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. I see the position

15 that you've got up there. And I agree with that

16 position.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So you do use hail guards on

18 the units that you make or you offer --

19 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes.

20 MS. BARHYDT: -- it as an option?

21 MR. WINNINGHAM: It's offered as an

22 accessory. It is not standard with the product.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so I am going to

2 say that, just to everyone who is on the phone who is

3 not familiar with me, I am an attorney. And so if I

4 am asking some questions that seem very basic that

5 everyone should know the answer to, that is why.

6 So for hail guards, does putting a hail

7 guard on an SPVU impact the efficiency in the same way

8 that it would on a unitary unit?

9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. It can impede the air

10 flow over the outdoor section.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Okay. I think that's

12 everything on this slide.

13 MS. TUCKER: Do you want to remove these

14 from our list?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Condenser fan motor options

16 for ducting. Does anyone offer these with their

17 SPVUs?

18 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We don't, but I

19 know that some of our members did raise that as a

20 concern, that they do offer that. So I don't know if

21 anyone is on the phone, but there were some folks that

22 did offer that.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: And would the types of issues

2 be the same for SPVUs as for the unitary?

3 MR. ROAN: Yes. Greater pressure drop

4 definitely would affect the motor horsepower. That's

5 right.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Is there anyone on the phone

7 who actually uses these in their systems?

8 (No response.)

9 Okay. What about steam/hydronic heat options?

10 MR. ROAN: Again, that is an accessory that

11 I know we offer and others do as well.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it would be

13 optional?

14 MR. ROAN: Yes.

15 MS. BARHYDT: And would it be clearly

16 indicated as a model designation or --

17 MR. ROAN: For our products, it is an add-on

18 option. So it would not be in the basic unit. It

19 would be something that you would attach to the unit.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And do you also have

21 SPVUs that use electric resistant heat, --

22 MR. ROAN: Yes.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: -- instead of hydronic coil?

2 MR. ROAN: Yes, we do.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

4 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney Beever says, "We do

5 use condenser motor with those standard and upgrade

6 options."

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Is he on the phone or

8 is he --

9 MS. MARCHETTI: He's not on the phone.

10 MS. BARHYDT: He's not on the phone. He's

11 just typing in his message?

12 MS. MARCHETTI: Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hey, Laura, can you hear me?

15 MS. BARHYDT: Yep.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: So two things. One is for

17 the hydronic heat option, the steam option. I think

18 we need to know, is there always an exact electric19 resistant model as well as a steam/hydronic model? So

20 if DOE is going to consider specifying that the test

21 only be on the electric resistance model, is there

22 always a comparable model, like identical model except
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1 for the heat option?

2 MR. ROAN: We offer a hydronic option, a

3 hydronic option that can be attached to the unit. We

4 also offer electric resistance heaters that can be

5 installed in the unit. And that is totally up to the

6 customer how many kW he puts in there, if he puts any

7 at all. So it's a feature.

8 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. So I think the

9 answer to my question is yes, but, just to, you know,

10 make sure I am understanding, you offer a given model.

11 And that model can come with either electric

12 resistance or hydronic? In other words, there is

13 never a model that is only offered with hydronic?

14 MR. ROAN: I guess that would be true for

15 our product, yes.

16 MS. ARMSTRONG: All right. Thanks.

17 MS. BARHYDT: That was Wes; right?

18 MR. ROAN: Yes.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: I don't know if anyone else

21 wants to chime in on that point, but then I have a

22 question on the previous one about the condenser fan
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1 motor options.

2 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin Grundy had his hand --

3 MS. BARHYDT: Ken, we are going to unmute

4 you. Okay. You are unmuted.

5 MR. GRUNDY: Yes. Hi. Kevin Grundy at

6 Change'Air System Air. And we, too, would have a

7 steam option that could be either as an add-on or

8 would be integral to unit and which would be

9 designated in the model number if it went out with the

10 unit. If it was an accessory that went out later or

11 was shipped separately with the unit, it wouldn't

12 necessarily be in the model number of the unit.

13 We also do electric resistance heating. And

14 it is possible just to have a hydraulic coil.

15 MS. BARHYDT: So on the systems where you

16 have the hydronic coil, is there always an option to

17 have it without the heat or, rather, to have it with

18 electric resistance or are you saying that where you

19 offer the hydronic coil, that is the standard way of

20 offering that product?

21 MR. GRUNDY: It would typically be one or

22 the other. You would get with a hydronic coil or you
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1 would get electric resistance heat.

2 MS. ARMSTRONG: Right. But that's the same

3 model; right? So for a given design of SPVU, a

4 consumer could get one with electric resistance or one

5 with hydronic, but it's the same base model. In other

6 words, the other components, the evap coil, the

7 condensers, the compressor, et cetera, are the same?

8 MR. GRUNDY: Yes.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: Okay.

10 MS. BARHYDT: And, Ashley, you have a

11 question about condenser fan motors?

12 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes. Just for the person on

13 the webinar -- and he can type in his answer if he'd

14 like, but for the person who says they offer this, I

15 just want to make sure that the larger fan motor you

16 are offering, the condenser fan motor, is offered just

17 for systems where the condenser is going to be --

18 MS. BARHYDT: I think that was Rodney

19 Beever. If you could respond?

20 MS. ARMSTRONG: Great.

21 MS. MARCHETTI: Yes. He's not on the phone.

22 He's going to have to type in.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We'll give him a minute

2 to type, no pressure.

3 MS. ARMSTRONG: I mean, for this one, it's

4 less of an issue because the static is specific. So

5 even if they -- this would be a test procedure issue

6 but less of an issue.

7 That's all I had.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: You can keep going.

10 MS. BARHYDT: We'll keep going. And,

11 Rodney, if you have a response, we will read that in

12 when you are ready.

13 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney says, "All of our

14 SPVU units are designed for an indoor application.

15 And the condenser air is ducted in and out."

16 MS. BARHYDT: Did that answer your question,

17 Ashley?

18 MS. ARMSTRONG: Yes, it does, more or less.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Gas reheat.

20 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We absolutely have

21 it, as do many of our competitors.

22 MS. BARHYDT: And how much of an impact does
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1 this have on the efficiency?

2 MR. ROAN: It's pretty minimal at test

3 conditions. Typically, it is an additional coil in

4 the airstream, which is pressure drop, which raises

5 evaporator watts a little bit. So there is an impact,

6 but it is pretty minimal.

7 MS. BARHYDT: And how common is this?

8 MR. ROAN: It is very common. Again, it is

9 geographical. There is an awful lot of this applied

10 in the Southern states, where humidity is more of an

11 issue, although in Ohio today, it should be here. So

12 it is one of those things that is geographical. It is

13 a common thing but not nearly the predominant product

14 that we make.

15 MS. BARHYDT: And is it always offered as an

16 option on the model or are there any designs where you

17 offer it with this feature?

18 MR. ROAN: We typically offer it with or

19 without this feature. It's a different product if

20 it's -- it's ordered by the customer either with or

21 without a gas reheat.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Barometric relief,
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1 powered exhaust, and powered return air. Actually, I

2 think we ended up dealing with these separately. So

3 let's take them one at a time. Barometric relief. Is

4 this something that is offered with SPVUs?

5 (No response.)

6 Okay. What about --

7 MR. ROAN: One comment on that. I mean, we

8 have a lot of systems that can bring in outdoor air

9 and exhaust outdoor air. And in many of them, it is -

10 - I mean, we bring in outdoor air. The exhaust is a

11 barometric thing. I mean, the pressure of the room

12 will have an effect on how much air is exhausted from

13 the product. It's not a powered exhaust.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So --

15 MR. ROAN: I guess the answer to that

16 question

17 --

18 MS. BARHYDT: -- it's a passive system?

19 MR. ROAN: I'm sorry?

20 MS. BARHYDT: It's a passive system?

21 MR. ROAN: Right. The indoor blower will

22 draw in outdoor air through a filtered system. And
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1 then it is exhausted just naturally from barometric

2 means.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And is that something

4 you offer frequently or is that something that is

5 added on after?

6 MR. ROAN: It can be added on after or it

7 can be factory-installed. And I would say it is a

8 medium accessory that's ordered. It's not on every

9 unit, but there are a good number of them sold.

10 MS. BARHYDT: What about powered exhaust or

11 powered return air?

12 MR. ROAN: We definitely have some powered

13 exhaust products as well, less than the barometric

14 relief. And powered return air, I guess my definition

15 of that, I mean, would -- I don't think we have

16 anything in our arsenal that fits that particular

17 product. We have normal return air coming into our

18 units that's drawn by the evaporator blower but not

19 something that is powered into it.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Does anyone else have

21 any comments on that?

22 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin at Change'Air. Our
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1 powered exhaust again is sometimes a separate assembly

2 that is sold as an accessory to the unit. But it also

3 can be sold integral to the unit.

4 MS. BARHYDT: So on the ones that are part

5 of the unit, is that an option or do you just have

6 certain designs where you have designed it so that it

7 incorporates powered exhaust?

8 MR. GRUNDY: Both. Any unit can have the

9 option. But there are certain ones, like something

10 that might have energy recovery in it, where it would

11 have a powered exhaust as well.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone else?

13 (No response.)

14 Okay. Thank you.

15 Fresh air dampers?

16 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We absolutely have

17 them.

18 MS. BARHYDT: How common are they?

19 MR. ROAN: They're becoming less common.

20 They used to be very common, but they're becoming less

21 common as more folks have energy recovery, economizer22 type designs, but they still are out there.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: And is that something that you

2 offer as an add-on to an existing model?

3 MR. ROAN: It could be an add-on or it could

4 be a factory install.

5 MS. BARHYDT: And for the ones that are

6 factory-installed, is that an option or do you have

7 some designs that are just set up that way?

8 MR. ROAN: It's an option. For us, it's an

9 option.

10 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin at Change'Air. Our

11 primary line is Univentilator. So every one of the

12 SPVUs has a fresh air damper.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else?

14 (No response.)

15 High-efficiency air filtration.

16 MR. ROAN: This is one where we have several

17 different options for air filters with different MERV

18 ratings. So, again, it's a customer-selected option.

19 In this case for us, it would be all factory20 installed.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So when you ship units,

22 you ship them with an air filter?
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1 MR. ROAN: Yes. I don't think there's

2 anything we ship that doesn't have an air filter in

3 it.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so you have sort of

5 a base option on the filtration, and then you have a

6 variety of options that they can choose from?

7 MR. ROAN: Yes.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone else?

9 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim.

10 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin at Change'Air. You know,

11 Wes is doing a good job speaking for the industry. I

12 mean, you don't need me to comment and chime in on

13 everything, do you?

14 MS. BARHYDT: No. It's up to you.

15 MR. GRUNDY: We don't do anything like

16 AHAPE. If that is what the indication is, there's

17 nothing like AHAPE, but there definitely are higher

18 MERV ratings available in the units.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

20 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Again, I mean,

21 maybe Wes can chime in here on the test procedure

22 itself, the HR-3390 standard. I think it's similar to
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1 340 through 68 if I'm not mistaken. And I don't think

2 it's specified that you have to test with or without

3 an air filter. I'm not sure. Maybe Wes can confirm

4 that if it's the case, then maybe we would need some

5 sort of I guess clarification, like we agreed to do in

6 the --

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. This would be like the

8 large unitary, not like the small that have it

9 specified in the test procedure?

10 MR. AMRANE: Right. We need to double11 check. I'm not sure. I don't have a standard in front

12 of me. But I would assume it's very similar to 340/360

13 standard. And I don't think it has a default value

14 for the pressure drop, anything like that. But maybe

15 Wes or somebody else who is not familiar with the test

16 procedure can correct me.

17 MR. ROAN: I don't have it in front of me

18 either, Karim, but I don't believe it has a default

19 pressure --

20 MR. AMRANE: Right.

21 MR. ROAN: -- if you don't have an air

22 filter, but I could be wrong.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. We will take a look at

2 that as well.

3 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney Beever has a comment.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Yes?

5 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney says, "All of our

6 units have filters. However, on prior calls, there

7 was an indication to specify a MERV rating for the

8 test procedure."

9 MS. BARHYDT: So we did have some discussion

10 about MERV ratings. We also had someone raise an issue

11 that a filter that has a certain MERV rating may --

12 there may be different designs with the same MERV

13 rating that cause different pressure drops. So we

14 were going to look at that some more. And it's also

15 just we were going to go back and look at what the

16 various test procedures specify. So there was some

17 discussion about MERV ratings, but there wasn't a

18 final decision on that.

19 Hot gas bypass.

20 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. Once again, this is

21 a pretty common design. Bard doesn't typically

22 manufacture this today, but we have in the past.
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1 Others do presently. And it's an option that's fairly

2 low-volume. So it is out there.

3 MS. BARHYDT: But you would expect that

4 where it exists, there would be another version of the

5 same model that offered it without it?

6 MR. ROAN: Right. This is a specific

7 product for a specific use. Typically it's for a very

8 low temperature operation. So you would have a

9 standard model of that unit without hot gas bypass

10 that you could test.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Sound traps, sound

12 attenuators.

13 MR. ROAN: Absolutely have them in several

14 of our products, as well as our competitors. There is

15 more and more of this type of item built into units

16 all along now.

17 MS. BARHYDT: So are they options or are

18 they becoming so prevalent that you're just offering

19 them standard?

20 MR. ROAN: Both. There are some that are

21 optional. There are some that are built into the

22 products.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. ROAN: It just depends how quiet you are

3 trying to get a particular product.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And so when you say they are

5 built in, I guess what I am wondering is, is it

6 something where when you design the model, you just

7 automatically design it with the sound traps in it or

8 is it still something that's optional for someone to

9 specify?

10 MR. ROAN: Well, again, I think we have

11 cases for both.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Both. Okay.

13 MR. ROAN: I mean, I know we have -- like I

14 said, those are competitors that have a lot of sound

15 attenuating devices inside the product as standard

16 equipment.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. I just wanted to make

18 sure.

19 MR. ROAN: And there are others that are

20 accessories.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Fire smoke isolation

22 dampers.
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1 MR. ROAN: We don't typically do this, but I

2 am not sure if others in this category do. I'll leave

3 that to others.

4 MR. GRUNDY: This is Kevin at Change'Air.

5 We have had only a couple of incidences where it was

6 required by the fire code that the fresh air damper be

7 a fire-rated isolation damper type. So that was

8 specified into the unit.

9 MS. BARHYDT: And so in those cases it was

10 basically a model you already offered and you added

11 this on to it or did --

12 MR. GRUNDY: We replaced the existing style

13 damper with a fire isolation-type damper, yes.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else with

15 comments on hot gas bypass, sound traps, or fire

16 isolation dampers?

17 MR. GRUNDY: There is a -- it's not really -

18 - I guess it's a type of hot gas bypass that is being

19 touted out there that we see specified and ask for

20 specifically one manufacturer that makes a product.

21 It's used for dehumidification and for low conditions.

22 I don't know if it would fall under hot gas bypass
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1 exactly or not. If it doesn't fall under that

2 category, I'm pretty sure it won't fall into any

3 other. But it is an add-on. It's something that is

4 specified and then offered into the unit, just like

5 the hot gas bypass is.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it's an add-on, and

7 it provides dehumidification?

8 MR. GRUNDY: Yes. It changes the way the

9 unit cycles and the load variance on the evaporator.

10 MS. BARHYDT: And, to your knowledge, there

11 is only one manufacturer offering this right now?

12 MR. GRUNDY: To my knowledge, it's only one.

13 I can give you the name. And maybe that's not

14 necessary.

15 MS. BARHYDT: It might be helpful if -- it

16 sounds like everybody knows that this is available.

17 MR. GRUNDY: Sure. It's RAW Devices. It's

18 called an APR valve.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you.

20 Extended wall sleeves. That was PTACs. UV

21 lights.

22 MR. GRUNDY: One time on extended wall
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1 sleeves. There are some SPVU products that do have

2 sleeves. They go through, penetrate through, the

3 wall. So it's not specifically to PTAC.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the SPVU is

5 installed in the wall?

6 MR. ROAN: There are some SPVUs that are

7 installed on the inside of the wall, some on the

8 outside of the wall, through the wall. So there are

9 some products that do incorporate wall sleeves.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So the --

11 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave, Allied. I

12 agree with Wes' statement. There are absolutely

13 products that are installed with wall sleeves. And

14 they do vary in thickness.

15 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. Maybe for Dave

16 and Wes, I mean, should we be more specific in terms

17 of what's the normal depth to know what the extended

18 wall sleeve should be, the range? Is it similar to

19 PTAC or should we have a different range in that?

20 MR. WINNINGHAM: Currently, Karim, we don't

21 test with wall sleeves within the program, but they

22 are part of the installation.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: So when you test them right

2 now, you're not testing them in a wall sleeve?

3 MR. WINNINGHAM: Well, I'm saying for the

4 audit test program, we do not test them in a wall

5 sleeve. And it's somewhat dependent on what type of

6 product. You know, there are variations of products.

7 And I'm just trying to think. We have two different

8 types of product. Both of them use wall sleeves, but

9 in the one case, the wall sleeve has no effect on

10 performance. In the other case, it can have an

11 effect.

12 While for our product, I don't believe that

13 the wall sleeve has a major effect on performance, I'm

14 just trying to think of other manufacturers and how

15 they may do it and if it would affect their product.

16 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I guess the

17 question for DOE here is a little bit different than

18 for PTACs because it appears I think that the majority

19 of SPVUs do not come with wall sleeves. The question

20 is, should we exempt the sleeves from the definition

21 so that DOE doesn't have to test with sleeves

22 altogether?
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1 MR. ROAN: That would be my recommendation -

2 -

3 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes.

4 MR. ROAN: -- just because there is such a

5 wide variety of products and thicknesses of sleeves

6 from virtually nothing to you have an extremely thick

7 wall to a pretty thick one or pretty long one.

8 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes.

9 MS. BARHYDT: That was Wes?

10 MR. ROAN: Yes.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Just making sure.

12 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin Eicher has a --

13 MR. WINNINGHAM: I would agree with that

14 position. This is Dave.

15 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin Eicher says, "We offer

16 different thickness wall sleeve options. The standard

17 offering would be the maximum of eight."

18 MS. BARHYDT: Eight inches? And, Dave, what

19 was that?

20 MR. WINNINGHAM: I said I was in agreement

21 with Wes and Karim that I really don't think that the

22 wall sleeve should be part of the test or audit
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1 process.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So right now I gather

3 that the test procedure doesn't say anything about

4 wall sleeves. And some of these are sold with wall

5 sleeves?

6 MR. WINNINGHAM: Again, this is Dave. The

7 wall sleeves are an accessory.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MR. WINNINGHAM: Going back to a prior

10 question, static pressure in regard to the filter is

11 in the standard. And it's .08. It's similar to 210

12 and

13 240.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

15 MR. WINNINGHAM: There is an adjustment of

16 .08 with or without a filter.

17 MR. AMRANE: This is good.

18 MS. BARHYDT: What was that, Karim?

19 MR. AMRANE: Yes. That is good. So at

20 least there is something that you can account for, at

21 least a default value, which is good.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Okay. Anything else on
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1 wall sleeves?

2 (No response.)

3 Okay. UV lights? Are SPVUs offered with UV lights?

4 MR. GRUNDY: This is Kevin at Change'Air.

5 We have been investigating it. We have seen requests

6 of it. But at present, we don't have it in one of our

7 models. But we have definitely seen the large

8 interest from the industry to have them included.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And high-static indoor

10 blowers, oversized motors. We heard a lot about

11 special applications for unitary. Do SPVUs have the

12 same sorts of demands?

13 MR. ROAN: This is Wes again. I'm not sure.

14 From our standpoint, we basically don't offer these.

15 But I don't know if there are other -- there are a lot

16 of different styles of SPVUs. And there may be some

17 out there that do offer this type of product.

18 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone on the phone or on the

19 webinar who offers this sort of feature with their

20 SPVU?

21 MS. MARCHETTI: Kevin has a comment. I will

22 unmute him.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Kevin, you are unmated.

2 MR. EICHER: Yes. We have seen the requests

3 for this. And we are investigating it, but we

4 currently do not offer any high-static lower options

5 in our SPVUs.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And --

7 MR. GRUNDY: This is Kevin Grundy,

8 Change'Air. What would be defined as a high-static

9 blower, though, as opposed to -- can someone comment

10 on that?

11 MS. BARHYDT: The discussion previously was

12 that there were certain designs that had a standard

13 fan assembly but that they would get a request to have

14 a different type of blower motor installed in order to

15 deal with a higher static pressure within the

16 building.

17 MR. GRUNDY: We definitely have that and see

18 that often, rather than the .15 inches of water column

19 or, you know, whatever the standard is for the test

20 parameters for that tonnage of unit. We definitely do

21 have requests from the industry where they wanted to

22 design a round of .5 static, say. I've even seen as
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1 high as .75 external duct static. So it's necessary

2 to provide them with a higher horsepower blower or

3 bigger fan to accommodate their need. So if that's

4 what you mean by high-static indoor blower and

5 oversized motors, I guess that's very common.

6 MS. BARHYDT: So in those cases, do you have

7 certain designs where you just design them to provide

8 that functionality or do you take existing models and

9 you basically just up the power on the blower and

10 motor?

11 MR. GRUNDY: We would take existing models

12 and we would up the power. And we would increase the

13 horsepower or the fan to accommodate the specification

14 that comes through.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

16 MR. GRUNDY: We would offer it with a

17 standard that would meet the minimum test requirement.

18 And then anything beyond that would be an option that

19 would be an addition to the unit. And it wouldn't be

20 reflected in the model number.

21 MS. BARHYDT: It would not?

22 MR. GRUNDY: No.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But that would be

2 something that would be specified when ordered?

3 MR. GRUNDY: Absolutely.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And would your I guess

5 marketing materials describe what the standard motor

6 was?

7 MR. GRUNDY: Absolutely.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

9 MS. MARCHETTI: Rodney Beever has a comment,

10 "United Cool Air SPVU offers upgraded evaporator

11 blower motors to accommodate the higher static

12 pressures. Our standard motor is offered at .25

13 inches. We see requests up to two inches ESP."

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, Rodney, in your

15 case, it would also be the situation where you would

16 have a standard motor and you would state what that

17 standard motor is, but you would offer people an

18 option of getting a higher horsepower motor?

19 MS. MARCHETTI: Yes.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you.

21 MS. MARCHETTI: And Yoolanda Williams also

22 has a comment on wall sleeves. "General Electric SPVU
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1 installations require a wall plenum to contain the

2 units. The plenum is supplied separately as a kit."

3 MR. RIVEST: It's required in all cases.

4 MS. BARHYDT: So, Yoolanda, in that case, it

5 sounds like that would be the standard, the way they

6 are offered standard, since you indicated that that is

7 in all cases? No response?

8 (No response.)

9 Okay. Any other comments on any of these options?

10 (No response.)

11 Okay. That was the last of them?

12 MS. TUCKER: Yes.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, thank you very

14 much to the manufacturers who joined us who make

15 SPVUs. We're going to basically go through the exact

16 same sort of thing for computer room air conditioners

17 now.

18 Actually, before we do that, are there any

19 other options or features that anyone wants to raise

20 for SPVUs?

21 MR. GRUNDY: Yes. It's Kevin at Change'Air.

22 We talked about energy recovery cores and the fixed
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1 plate-type core. And we do offer that in our unit as

2 well. I know there was a comment about the rotary

3 wheels. But we have an option of the fixed-plate

4 cores as well.

5 MS. BARHYDT: And that was under

6 dehumidification?

7 MR. GRUNDY: I had joined at that time.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Was that under

9 dehumidification? Okay.

10 MR. ROAN: And this is Wes. One other

11 comment. Thanks for that definition of the fixed12 plate heat exchangers. We do manufacture a model that

13 has a digital compressor and an unloading feature. So

14 depending on the internal load of the structure and

15 the outdoor temperature, it fluctuates in capacity

16 from 20 percent to 100 percent or even above 100

17 percent. So typically today we have it rated with

18 AHRI. It can be tested at 95 degrees under the test

19 procedure, but it is a completely different file of

20 product being tested with an indoor controller that we

21 supply. It's very much a different style of product.

22 MS. MARCHETTI: Yoolanda Williams has a
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1 comment.

2 MS. WILLIAMS: Hello?

3 MS. BARHYDT: Thanks, Wes.

4 Yoolanda?

5 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. Hi. I, first of all,

6 want to go back to your question. I think you had a

7 follow-up regarding the plenums.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

9 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. And basically that is

10 required for installations. And the plenum type or

11 size will vary based on the wall thickness, but it's

12 basically just to contain the unit.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So in your case, they

14 are always shipped with the plenum?

15 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, it would have to be

16 ordered separately. So you would have the unit

17 itself.

18 And then the plenum would be shipped

19 separately, but it would be ordered and it would be

20 based on the thickness of the wall. But yes, they

21 would need to order both of those: The unit as well

22 as a plenum.
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1 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. But I don't

2 believe that the unit is tested with the plenum,

3 though, is it? No.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Is Yoolanda still on mute? Go

5 ahead, Yoolanda.

6 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. We have conducted our

7 testing with the plenum.

8 MR. AMRANE: Do we -- I'm sorry. I just

9 wanted to make sure that whatever ratings you have on

10 your product account for that because that is how DOE

11 is going to test your unit if it comes with a plenum.

12 MS. BARHYDT: So this is Laura. My

13 understanding was that Yoolanda was saying that that

14 is how they test and rate them.

15 MS. WILLIAMS: I will confirm that as far as

16 the ratings. We have conducted some tests with it.

17 And I will verify regarding the actual rating that is

18 submitted to AHRI with that.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. If you want to get back

20 to either us or to Karim with that later, that would

21 be great.

22 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. Will do.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you.

2 MR. GRUNDY: Regarding the exterior wall

3 sleeve, doesn't the testing have to be done with the

4 exterior louver? That would require, then, the

5 exterior wall sleeve to connect the unit to the

6 louver?

7 MS. BARHYDT: Who is speaking right now?

8 MR. GRUNDY: I beg your pardon. Kevin

9 Grundy at Change'Air.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Thank you.

11 So what I had understood previously was

12 that the test procedure does not specify that it is

13 tested with the wall sleeve, but it sounds like that

14 you are suggesting that it is tested with at least the

15 exterior

16 --

17 MR. GRUNDY: Exterior louver. Maybe someone

18 can comment on that, like maybe Wes or somebody that

19 is more familiar with the standard. I am just scoping

20 through it right now. I thought it stated that it had

21 to be tested with the exterior louver.

22 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave at Allied. I
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1 am just reviewing the current AHRI ratings. And there

2 is really nothing in the current standard that

3 specifies an additional external accessory wall

4 sleeve. If it's integral to the product, it will be

5 tested as such. But in looking at ratings -- and I am

6 reviewing several different manufacturers. It's just

7 the basic unit that is listed. I don't see ratings

8 that -- you know, typically within AHRI, if you have

9 an accessory that is required with the rating, it is

10 designated kind of as a plus, a certain accessory.

11 And I don't see those listed within the current AHRI

12 ratings. And I don't believe there's anything within

13 the standard that specifies the tests with those

14 unless they are an integral part of the product, the

15 basic product.

16 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. I concur with Dave.

17 That's how it's been conducted in the past. That is

18 how testing has been conducted in the past, certainly

19 on the models that we have produced.

20 MR. GRUNDY: Would you give me the courtesy

21 if I read 523, 390 and see if maybe I'm

22 misinterpreting it? Outside air flow rate. So what
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1 am I in in 5 here? Test requirements. Outside air

2 flow rate. "A standard rating shall be determined at

3 the outside air flow rate specified by the

4 manufacturer when the fan drive is adjustable. Where

5 the fan drive is nonadjustable, standard ratings shall

6 be determined at the outdoor side air flow rate

7 inherent in the equipment when operated with all the

8 resistance elements associated with the inlets,

9 louvers, and any ductwork, and attachments considered

10 by the manufacturer as normal installation practice.

11 Once established, the outside air circuit of the

12 equipment shall remain unchanged throughout the test

13 described herein." Perhaps I am misinterpreting that.

14 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave again. Just

15 looking at the current ratings within AHRI and how the

16 audit tests are conducted, as I understand them today,

17 I don't believe they are typically conducted with

18 accessories. Now, I am not disputing what you just

19 read there either. So maybe there is some --

20 MR. GRUNDY: And I would concur. I have not

21 seen them tested that way when we have taken our units

22 down either. I don't know why it's excluded, but it
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1 might be something that needs to be addressed before

2 we just leave it. I mean, that's what we're here for;

3 right?

4 MR. WINNINGHAM: Yes. Agree.

5 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. I think one of the

6 issues that we have had in the past is the tremendous

7 difference in designs of accessories. In other words,

8 manufacturer might supply a wall sleeve and even an

9 outdoor louver or they may get those products from

10 some aftermarket provider, especially grills. I mean,

11 they oftentimes buy grills from a grill manufacturer

12 direct in whatever kind of construction they want. So

13 that's something that's out of the manufacturer's

14 control.

15 MR. WINNINGHAM: Absolutely. I would agree

16 with that. Even the wall sleeve itself sometimes is -

17 -

18 MR. ROAN: Absolutely. Yes.

19 MR. WINNINGHAM: -- is built, yes, on site.

20 MS. BARHYDT: If everybody could state your

21 name? Because we're getting a lot of agreement and we

22 have no idea who is agreeing.
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1 MR. ROAN: Okay. Wes agrees.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Wes wasn't the only one.

3 MR. GRUNDY: Kevin Grundy brought up the

4 definition. And I would have to agree that there are

5 many different louvers offered, supplied by others.

6 MS. BARHYDT: And I think there was somebody

7 else who agreed, too.

8 MR. WINNINGHAM: This was Dave Winningham.

9 I offered comments, you know, in regard to how the

10 current tests are conducted and how the current AHRI

11 directory is structured. And it basically has just

12 the units listed.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you all. Do try

14 and be aware of identifying yourselves. Our

15 stenographer is sitting here trying to recognize all

16 of your voices. And I think she is doing a fabulous

17 job, but it does get a little bit confusing.

18 MR. WINNINGHAM: Agree.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So are there any other issues

20 that anyone wants to raise for SPVUs?

21 (No response.)

22 Okay. Then we will go ahead and move on to computer
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1 room air conditioners. And will it be the same people

2 who are interested in this or are you guys who have

3 been so helpful providing comments so far? Are you all

4 not making these products?

5 MR. WINNINGHAM: This is Dave Winningham.

6 We do not make computer room equipment.

7 MR. ROAN: This is Wes. We don't as well.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So it sounds like we

9 may have a different group of people who are wanting

10 to comment on the computer room air conditions.

11 MS. MARCHETTI: Yoolanda Williams and Wes.

12 Do you want me to --

13 MR. AMRANE: Yes. This is Karim. There

14 should be able to be folks on the phone that

15 manufacture computer room A/C that should be able to

16 weigh in on the discussion.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And, Yoolanda, you are

18 also unmated.

19 MS. WILLIAMS: Yes. I just wanted to let

20 you know that General Electric does not make the

21 computer room A/Cs.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So, going back to I
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1 guess the beginning of the list, are computer room air

2 conditioners offered with economizers or ventilation

3 energy recovery systems? Who do we have on the phone?

4 If you make computer room air conditioners, please

5 raise your hand so we can get you unmated.

6 MR. BEAN: You have John Bean from Schneider

7 Electric. I believe I have been unmated.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. Anyone else?

9 MR. BEAN: I do have a colleague with me as

10 well, Stuart Dill. So you have got two people from

11 Schneider.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you. And do you

13 put economizers or ventilation energy recovery systems

14 on your computer room air conditioners?

15 MR. BEAN: We certainly have computer room

16 air conditioners with economizers. We do not

17 typically have ventilation energy recovery systems,

18 though.

19 MR. DILL: Not within our product. Now,

20 some of the other vendors, Emerson or some of the

21 others, may do something as a custom, one-off kind of

22 solution, not catalogued, but I don't think most of us
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1 are doing VERS systems.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And so the economizers, how

3 common is that?

4 MR. BEAN: So it's becoming -- there are a

5 couple of methods of economization. We have the

6 liquid-side economization with a CRAC unit that has an

7 extra coil in it that can leverage the cooler fluids

8 produced by either a dry cooler or a cooling tower

9 during the fall and/or winter months. And then there

10 are some vendors -- and we don't do this either, but

11 there are some vendors that have an air-mixing box on

12 top of their computer room air conditioner. And they

13 can mix outdoor air. And then they do have an exhaust

14 scheme as well.

15 I would say the first system I described is

16 more common than the latter system. You know, they

17 are not so common to see computer room air

18 conditioners ducted through the wall with mixing boxes

19 on them.

20 MR. DILL: I had hoped, though, that we were

21 going to have some folks from Emerson on this call and

22 maybe Data Aire as well.
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1 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted Marwitz from

2 Data Aire. I just got unmated.

3 MR. DILL: Oh, great.

4 MR. MARWITZ: The second system you

5 described, we actually do make, the one that's ducted

6 to the wall with a mixing box on top of the unit. We

7 do make that. I don't know about any other

8 manufacturers.

9 MR. BEAN: I think Emerson may have an offer

10 in that space as well. And I think Stulz may also do

11 something. So I think there are a couple of

12 manufacturers that offer that as well. I don't know

13 how widespread it is just yet, though; right?

14 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. It's not a big part of

15 our product line, but we do offer it.

16 MR. BEAN: Sure. I think you would agree,

17 though, the fluid-side economizer; right, where you've

18 got the economizer foil or whatever term you want to

19 use, is a lot more common; right?

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So until we get

21 familiar with your voices, if you could state your

22 name before you speak?
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1 MR. BEAN: I apologize. John Bean.

2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I

3 would agree with John. We do offer a lot more of the

4 liquid economizers.

5 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I would like to

6 add as well that the codes also are changing. And

7 there are now requirements that are popping up

8 requiring economizers on this type of product. So it

9 is going to be more and more the norm than the

10 exceptions.

11 MS. BARHYDT: And so the codes apply to

12 conditioning air for the computer rooms as well as

13 just for the general building comfort cooling?

14 MR. AMRANE: Yes. I mean, this is Karim

15 again. As you recall, Laura, I mean, ASHRAE 90.1, for

16 example, extended scope to include computer room air.

17 And just how do you read ended up regularly in the

18 computer room A/C.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Right.

20 MR. AMRANE: So now as part of 90.1, 90.1

21 has put some requirements on economizers as well as

22 would apply to computer room A/C. So that's what it
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1 is.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so for the systems

3 that have the economizers, is that something that you

4 just incorporate in your standard system or is that

5 something that is an add-on that customers

6 specifically request?

7 MR. BEAN: So John Bean, Schneider Electric.

8 We treat it as an optional feature for our products

9 and when they pick that option because there is an

10 extra coil in the airstream that is not there in the

11 basic model group. The performance of the machine in

12 normal non-economizer mode of operation does change

13 because of the extra air flow resistance of the coil.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So when you put in that extra

15 coil, do you automatically change out some of the fan

16 motors or it just has an impact on the performance?

17 MR. BEAN: It has an impact on the

18 performance. We use primarily electronically

19 commutated fan motors, which are basically a VFD, if

20 you would, integral to the fan motor. So we have the

21 ability to adjust the RPM of the fan to compensate and

22 maintain the same air flow. However, there is a
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1 change in the power consumption or the fan to --

2 again, John Bean here, Schneider Electric. I'm sorry.

3 But there is a hit on power consumption to get the air

4 flow back to catalogue data with the extra coil in the

5 air flow.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted Marwitz from Data

8 Aire. I agree with everything that John just said.

9 We do also use the electronic commutated motors with

10 the built-in VFD, but we also use fixed-speed motors.

11 And at times, we have to actually put in a larger

12 motor, which also gives you a hit on the energy usage.

13 MS. BARHYDT: But for your systems as well,

14 this would be an option that someone would add on or

15 do you have some --

16 MR. MARWITZ: It's an option. It's an

17 option they have to order at the time of order. It's

18 integrally built into the unit before it ships from

19 our factory.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But you would have

21 basically the same system offered that did not have an

22 economizer in it?
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1 MR. MARWITZ: That's true. This is Ted from

2 Data Aire. That's true.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else who has any

4 information they would like to add about economizers?

5 And does anyone use the VERS? No?

6 (No response.)

7 Okay. What about process heat recovery, reclaim

8 coils, thermal storage. And the description of what

9 we're referring to is listed there on your screen. Do

10 computer room air conditioners use any of these

11 systems?

12 MR. BEAN: So I hate being the guy that goes

13 first all the time, but I'll go ahead and chime in;

14 right? So we do use some heat exchangers located

15 inside the equipment. Periodically, they could use an

16 external source for cooling. We'll call them dual17 cooled units. That is kind of an interesting thing.

18 We also have hot gas reheat coils, which is maybe not

19 particularly targeted by this description. I'm not

20 sure, although --

21 MS. BARHYDT: No. The hot gas reheat, I

22 think, is later in the list.
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1 MR. BEAN: All right.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And was this Ted?

3 MR. BEAN: No. This was John Bean,

4 Schneider Electric.

5 MS. BARHYDT: That was John. Okay. Sorry

6 about that.

7 MR. BEAN: Sorry.

8 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

9 We do not use any of the processed heat recovery

10 reclaim coils, but we do, as John mentioned, the hot

11 gas reheat. I know that is later on.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about coated

13 coils?

14 MR. BEAN: John with Schneider Electric.

15 Yes. We have two different types of coatings. And I

16 think most of the other vendors will be in this same

17 camp; right? We have a treatment that we do to the

18 bin stock that is a hydrophilic bin treatment, which

19 could be considered a coating but is a normal feature

20 of the coil itself. And we, additionally, have

21 phenolic-type coatings from time to time where after

22 the coil is fabricated, it is sprayed on the coil. So
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1 we have two different types of coated coils that we

2 deal with.

3 MS. BARHYDT: And are those offered as

4 options or do you have any models where those come

5 standard?

6 MR. BEAN: So for Schneider Electric -- John

7 Bean here for Schneider Electric -- the hydrophilic

8 pretreatment of the aluminum bin stock, that is just a

9 standard force. We just do that on some models that

10 it just comes that way because of the advantages that

11 come with it. We can do as an option basically an ETO

12 solution, where we would go, send a coil out to a

13 third party to get it coated with this phenolic

14 coating, and then install it in the product.

15 The latter, the latter, the phenolic

16 coatings, do have an effect on the heat transfer of

17 the coil. And they do slightly diminish the

18 performance of the product. And they are kind of rare

19 for us. But I'll let the other guys speak what

20 they're dealing with.

21 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

22 We do offer both. They're both options for us.
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1 They're not part of our standard. And I think I agree

2 with everything else John said there.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And do you offer

4 computer room air conditioners that have correction

5 capacitors on them?

6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

7 I'll go first this time, John. We do offer it. It is

8 an option. It's not a highly used option, but we do

9 offer it.

10 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. I

11 think this would be so rare it would be an ETO, an

12 engineered-to-order, type activity for us that we

13 don't presently offer this as a configurable option.

14 It would be, "Hey, you've got to call us and ask us to

15 do this."

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

18 That is the same for us too, John.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Anyone else on the call for

20 computer room air conditioner? No?

21 (No response.)

22 Okay. What about hail guards? Do computer room air
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1 conditioners come with hail guards?

2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

3 No. They're indoor. We have them on our condensers

4 but not on the evap section.

5 MS. BARHYDT: But you would offer them on

6 the condensers?

7 MR. MARWITZ: It's not really a hail guard.

8 I will retract that. It's more of a rain slinger than

9 a hail guard.

10 MS. BARHYDT: What is a rain slinger?

11 MR. MARWITZ: It just throws water off the

12 face of the motor so it doesn't get down in the motor.

13 It's a small plastic device. It's not the same thing

14 as a hail guard.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about

16 dehumidification? I would think that you would have

17 some sort of humidity control on these.

18 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

19 Yes. We do have a logic in the controller that treats

20 a dehumidification mode.

21 MS. BARHYDT: And is that standard?

22 MR. MARWITZ: Yes, it is.
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1 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider

2 Electric. Similarly, we do have a logic. And I think

3 everybody in the industry kind of has their own little

4 schemes on how they do this, but they do have a

5 control method that changes the sensible heat ratio of

6 the product to be able to make it dehumidify.

7 Sometimes, though, to really enable and leverage this,

8 though, you need electric reheat option as well or hot

9 gas reheat option. So those are options. So the

10 dehumidification functionality is always there.

11 Whether or not people can really extensively use it

12 without an electric or hot gas reheat if they don't

13 have enough sensible load in the room kind of varies.

14 MS. BARHYDT: So how does this test

15 procedure differ? Does it account for humidification

16 and dehumidification? Because I know that is more of

17 an issue for the computer room air conditioners.

18 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. So the

19 method of test right now is primarily focused on the

20 sensible cooling capacity of the machine. In our

21 industry, almost all the heat we deal with is almost

22 exclusively sensible heat load compared to a comfort
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1 cooling system, because the amount of makeup air we

2 have compared to the heat release from the IT because

3 of our watt densities per square foot is so

4 tremendous, you know, the latent capacity is almost a

5 secondary consideration for us. But, like Ted was

6 saying, we have given control behaviors, though, so

7 that we can kind of modify the way the machine runs to

8 be able to reduce a sensible heat ratio to provide

9 some dehumidification.

10 And then, optionally -- John here again --

11 we do have humidification because a lot of the

12 industry is a little bit of concerned still about

13 electrostatic discharge. So a lot of the CRAC

14 vendors, including Schneider, offer different options

15 for humidification systems within our CRAC units to be

16 able to maintain the relative humidity above the

17 perceived critical threshold for electrostatic

18 discharge.

19 MS. BARHYDT: So for the humidification,

20 those are optional? That would not be standard?

21 MR. BEAN: They are options. That is

22 correct. You know, Ted, I don't know what your attach
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1 rate is on humidification. I think, you know, we see

2 it's fairly common that people check that option.

3 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

4 It is an option on some of our products, and it's

5 standard on some of our products. And yes, we produce

6 a lot of units with humidifiers on them. I think that

7 may be going away in the future, but today that's the

8 way it is.

9 MR. BEAN: I am still campaigning to get

10 humidifiers taken out of CRAC. So I am on a personal

11 mission in life to do that.

12 MR. MARWITZ: Okay.

13 MS. BARHYDT: That was John?

14 MR. BEAN: That's John Bean. Yes. Yes.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else about

16 dehumidification or humidification?

17 (No response.)

18 So on the dehumidification, are the systems that are

19 described there sufficient to describe what you have

20 set out as the --

21 MR. BEAN: Well, I don't think any of us is

22 doing any desiccant within our CRAC units or desiccant
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1 wheels. We're using the DX or the chilled water coil

2 to be able to provide the latent cooling. Ted, would

3 you agree with that? I mean, I haven't seen a CRAC

4 unit with a solid or liquid desiccant in some time, if

5 ever.

6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I

7 agree with you, John. We don't use a desiccant wheel

8 or any kind of liquid desiccant system. They use the

9 coil.

10 MR. BEAN: Yes. So John here with

11 Schneider. It would be either the chilled water coil

12 or the DX --

13 MR. MARWITZ: Or the DX coil.

14 MR. BEAN: -- coil providing it.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Thank you.

16 So indoor fan motors, VFDs.

17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

18 We do offer these. They are an option. We don't see

19 a lot of them because, as John mentioned earlier, a

20 lot of manufacturers using electronically commutated

21 type motors that are, in essence, a VFD, but it's not

22 what I describe or what I believe the definition of
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1 VFD here is: a variable frequency drive.

2 MR. BEAN: John here with Schneider. You

3 know, a similar situation with what Ted stated.

4 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

5 MR. BEAN: But I am a little bit worried,

6 though, that somebody -- and I agree that a VFD isn't

7 necessarily intended to describe an EC, an

8 electronically commutated motor, but I'm a little bit

9 worried, though. If we're not careful, somebody may

10 say, "Well, that EC fan motor is, in essence, the same

11 functionality of a VFD. And, therefore, the product

12 can't be tested with it because you said that's an

13 option that you don't test with, but a lot of our

14 products require the EC capability. If you took out

15 the EC fan motor, we wouldn't have a product to test.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So just -- go ahead.

17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

18 I agree with John. Some people do once in a while

19 call the type of EC plug fan-type fans -- they believe

20 they are VFDs, yes. And somebody could misunderstand

21 that. I know in our group, we had a lot of discussion

22 about this particular item.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So just to be clear,

2 where it says "Departmental position" on here, we're

3 using the same slides that we used for unitary. And

4 so those are the positions that we took with respect

5 to unitary. And it's not set that that is the

6 position for the SPVUs or the CRACs today. That is

7 just reflecting what the position was with respect to

8 unitary. This call is for us to get enough

9 information so that we can actually figure out where

10 we stand on the different features. So the feedback

11 on the concern that somebody might call an ECM a VFD

12 is useful to us. Thank you.

13 What about other condenser fan motor

14 options, particularly to deal with ducting?

15 MR. BEAN: Well, John Bean here with

16 Schneider. Could you go back to the previous page --

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes.

18 MR. BEAN: -- just one second? I thought I

19 saw a header. Consider including the bottom bullet

20 there, "VFD option for compressors." Is that

21 something we need to speak about?

22 MS. BARHYDT: Is that an issue for CRACs?
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1 MR. BEAN: It is potentially an issue. We

2 have some products that use a VFD on the compressor as

3 part of the standard configuration. They require the

4 VFD for the compressor. And they don't come any other

5 way other than that with the VFD on the compressor.

6 MS. BARHYDT: And does --

7 MR. BEAN: So I am just wondering, are we at

8 risk of saying, hey, you know, we disqualify that from

9 testing, you know, a similar conversation to what we

10 just had for the fan motor, for the indoor fan motor?

11 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I'm sorry. Go

12 ahead.

13 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest with

14 Navigant. The idea here for unitary was that variable

15 frequency drives were offered as an option. And the

16 benefit of that option was not being captured by the

17 test procedure. So it would be excluded from testing

18 so that it wasn't penalized for something that has

19 energy savings potential in the field. If your

20 standard units have variable-speed capability and

21 products are tested that way, there is no reason for

22 DOE to exempt those. So your concern --
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1 MR. BEAN: Okay. So --

2 MR. RIVEST: So your concerns about ECM

3 motors I think are valid but wouldn't be a problem in

4 our situation here. We simply would not provide an

5 exemption for testing or VFDs for CRACs is what I'm

6 hearing so far.

7 MR. BEAN: Right. So what I am concerned

8 about is somebody would hardwire around the VFD or

9 take it out of circuit to be able to test the product.

10 And then it would not function as advertised. Okay?

11 So we would need that VFD there on the compressor for

12 the machine to perform as advertised.

13 MR. RIVEST: Right. So there is no risk of

14 DOE exempting VFDs from testing of CRACs if there are

15 no products being sold without VFDs.

16 MR. BEAN: Well, there are certainly

17 products being sold without them, but there are

18 products also that are being sold that require them.

19 So within the CRAC industry, we have quite a few

20 different ways of handling variable capacity on the

21 refrigeration circuit. And one of the methods is the

22 VFD on the compressor. And that is a standard feature
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1 for us at Schneider on some of our product.

2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I

3 agree with you, John. We offer it as an option on

4 some products, but we have some products that it is

5 standard and would not operate without the VFD being

6 there.

7 MR. RIVEST: Those would be two different

8 basic models for DOE.

9 MR. BEAN: They would for us as well.

10 MR. RIVEST: Right. I think we understand

11 the situation.

12 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else on this slide

13 before we move on?

14 (No response.)

15 So condenser fan motor options.

16 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

17 We do offer some condenser fan motor options for

18 ducting on some of our sealant products to overcome

19 pressure drop from the ducting.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And that is optional or you

21 have some models where that would be offered standard?

22 MR. MARWITZ: Some models it is a standard
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1 feature. It is a package unit where the evap and

2 condenser are together. And, therefore, the condenser

3 is ducted, has to be ducted. It is optional in some,

4 but there are some that it is standard.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about steam

6 hydronic heat? Do computer room air conditioners do

7 any heating functions?

8 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider

9 Electric. Yes. You'll certainly see a fair number of

10 them that more typically have electric reheat in them

11 or hot gas reheat. And occasionally, you will see

12 steam or hydronic reheat. I would say that is in the

13 minority, though. You don't see too many CRACs with

14 steam reheat or hydronic, but it is an option and it

15 can happen.

16 MS. BARHYDT: And in those cases, it's

17 always an option?

18 MR. BEAN: We have no basic model -- John

19 Bean with Schneider again. We do not have any basic

20 models that include steam or hydronic within them. It

21 would be an engineered-to-order solution for us.

22 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I
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1 agree. We do offer steam and hydronic coils as an

2 option, but we do offer product without it. It is

3 totally an option. It is low volume.

4 MS. BARHYDT: How much of an impact does

5 that have on the performance?

6 MR. BEAN: It would have a reasonable impact

7 to the -- John Bean with Schneider. It would have a

8 reasonable impact to the fan system performance

9 because it is an extra coil packaged within the CRAC

10 unit that does have extra impedance to the air flow.

11 And sometimes they get put in awkward locations as

12 well because the packaging requirements that -- the

13 system effect is even more pronounced maybe than if

14 you just tested the static pressure of the coil by

15 itself because where it is in the air flow turbulence,

16 they can have some interesting system effect on the

17 system.

18 But it is such a low, low frequency device

19 for us. It is not justified to really refine the box

20 to anticipate this capability. It would be a terrible

21 trade-off.

22 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted from Data
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1 Aire. I agree. It is very low-volume for us also.

2 And I agree with all your comments about affecting the

3 fan performance and air flow through the box.

4 MS. BARHYDT: So for the systems where you

5 do offer steam or hydronic heat, do you also offer

6 electric resistance heat as an option in those or are

7 there some systems where you would only offer steam or

8 hydronic heat?

9 MR. MARWITZ: Ted from Data Aire. There are

10 no systems where that would be only offered. They're

11 absolutely an option for us. But there are systems we

12 do offer electric reheat as a standard.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And so forgive my lack

14 of knowledge in this area, but does the electric

15 resistance heat create the same air flow issues that

16 the steam or hydronic heat presents or does the

17 electric resistance somehow cause less of an impact?

18 MR. MARWITZ: Ted from Data Aire. It's less

19 impactful because it's electric elements, rather than

20 a whole coil.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. MARWITZ: It does affect the air flow
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1 somewhat, but it's not as drastic.

2 MS. BARHYDT: And would it be possible to

3 test something that had one of the coils in it using

4 the test procedure?

5 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. When

6 you say, "one of the coils," are you referring to

7 electric reheat coil or are you referring to a

8 hydronic or steam coil?

9 MS. BARHYDT: The hydronic or steam coil.

10 MR. BEAN: It would certainly be possible to

11 test it with the coil in it, although its performance

12 would be different than what the published standard

13 basic model would be. If you compared it to the base

14 model performance, it would be different because of

15 the extra coil in there.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Right. Okay. And what about

17 the hot gas reheat? It sounded like that was more

18 common?

19 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

20 It is an option and can be selected on our unit. Yes.

21 It is definitely more of a selected option than a

22 steam or hydronic, but it is still a low volume for
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1 us.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Low volume. Less than two

3 percent of sales? Less than five? Less than ten?

4 MR. MARWITZ: Probably less than -- I'm

5 taking a guess here. Probably less than 20 or 30

6 percent of our sales.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

8 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. I

9 think we are -- well, I know our attach rate on hot

10 gas reheat is even lower than that. I think we're in

11 single-digit range of the attach rate for hot gas

12 reheat last I checked.

13 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I

14 was making a pure guess there. You may be right. It

15 may be much lower than I think it is.

16 MS. BARHYDT: That's okay. That at least

17 gives us a ballpark. Actually, if you all don't mind

18 going back to the steam and hydronic heat options? So

19 when you talk about the impact that has, are we

20 talking about on the final value that comes out of the

21 test procedure on the actual metric, are we talking

22 about an impact of zero to two percent or two to five
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1 percent or over five percent impact on the metric? I

2 mean, I know that the impact on the air flow might be

3 dramatic in terms of percentage, but how does that

4 actually end up coming out under the test procedure?

5 MR. BEAN: So John with Schneider. In the

6 overall coefficient of performance with the DX running

7 -- I'm going to guess -- and it is a guess -- around

8 three-ish percent maybe. It might change the sensible

9 coefficient of performance by three percent maybe.

10 Certainly it is going to have a bigger hit on the fan

11 power. It would probably be a five, six percent hit

12 on the fan power because of the extra maybe even

13 seven.

14 The thing that scares me, though, is if it

15 is three-ish kind of percent and we have a plus or

16 minus five percent target, you throw this on top of

17 other manufacturing tolerance issues. And if somebody

18 tested a product with this option in it and expected

19 it with all of the other tolerance stacks, it would

20 still be a safe bet to reflect the basic model group

21 performance specifications. I would be a little bit

22 frightened of that really working out in our favor.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. BEAN: So basically what I'm asking,

3 hey, DOE or whomever wants to validate our numbers,

4 please say that you're not going to test it with the

5 hydronic coil in it or a steam reheat. And if you

6 happen to get one that way, please have it removed

7 before you proceed with the test. Otherwise you're

8 going to call us up, saying, "Hey, your numbers aren't

9 true." And we're going to ask you questions. And

10 you're going to say, "Oh, yeah. I had that in there."

11 And we'll say, "Hey, please take it out."

12 So that is my opinion, but just to be real frank,

13 right, to put out my fear here.

14 MS. BARHYDT: No. I understand the concern.

15 And then on the hot gas reheat, how much of an impact

16 does that have?

17 MR. BEAN: I would estimate it would almost

18 be identical because typically the hot gas reheat coil

19 in terms of the fins per inch and the base area ratio

20 to the evaporator coil are kind of comparable in many

21 cases. So I would say that just the fact that that

22 coil there has the potential to be similarly
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1 disruptive as a steam or hydronic heating coil.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So this feature has the

3 coil in the air flow the same way that the steam or

4 hydronic heat does?

5 MR. BEAN: In our products, it does, yes.

6 And, Ted, I don't know how you guys manage that,

7 whether it's situated very similar to your steam or

8 hydronic coil.

9 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted from Data

10 Aire. It is the same way. It is another coil laying

11 over top of the cooling coil. And yes, it has an

12 impact.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anyone else with any

14 comments or thoughts on any of the items on this

15 slide? If we have any other manufacturers of computer

16 room air conditioners, by all means, identify

17 yourself. And we'll get you unmated so you can

18 participate in the call.

19 MR. AMRANE: Laura, this is Karim. I guess

20 I have a general comment. At least for the unitary

21 large product, you know, when we had those

22 discussions, the Department took a position on what it
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1 would do or not do. You are not taking a position.

2 When are you planning to do that, I mean, in the next

3 meeting or -- it's hard for us to see. And we don't

4 see any looks taken in any way based on the discussion

5 we are having. So I am afraid we're losing all the --

6 I hope that you were taking notes because otherwise we

7 would be having the same discussion next month if we

8 have --

9 MS. BARHYDT: Oh, no.

10 MR. AMRANE: -- that we discussed --

11 MS. BARHYDT: Karim, we have the

12 stenographer here. So she has got it all.

13 MR. AMRANE: Okay. Good. Good.

14 MS. BARHYDT: No. The whole thing is being

15 recorded. So that's why we keep asking who is

16 speaking, so that we make sure we have down who is

17 saying what. But yes, our plan is to have our

18 position on this at the next meeting. The purpose of

19 this is just to gather the information.

20 MR. AMRANE: Okay.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Next. Okay. What

22 about barometric relief? Is this something that you
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1 have in a computer room air conditioner? My sort of

2 instinct is that you wouldn't want a lot of outside

3 air coming in because you are trying to control the

4 environment for the room, but maybe my instinct is

5 completely off.

6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

7 We don't offer anything like this. No. It is not in

8 our product lines.

9 MS. BARHYDT: What about the powered

10 exhaust, powered return air, any of those three?

11 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted again. None of

12 those.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

14 MR. BEAN: So John Bean with Schneider.

15 Ted, quick question, though. And I apologize for not

16 being more familiar with the way everybody is doing

17 it, but some of the vendors do use a mixing box for

18 outside air. You know, we talked early in this: the

19 outdoor air economizer box on top of the CRAC. Do any

20 of those end up with a powered exhaust on them or is

21 it more typical just to rely on the pressure within

22 the data center to go through the louver to get it
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1 back outside?

2 MR. MARWITZ: Dave, this is Ted again. They

3 do require a powered exhaust fan. We don't supply it.

4 We usually leave that for the engineer to design that

5 because we have no idea what the room size is, how

6 much air they may need to relieve. So it's not part

7 of our product, but it is recommended to be used with

8 the air- side economizer.

9 MR. BEAN: Okay.

10 MR. MARWITZ: Okay?

11 MS. BARHYDT: So, then, in that case where

12 you are selling it with the economizer, you're

13 specifying that you recommend that it have some sort

14 of powered exhaust or some kind of other features

15 added. But you don't specify that and you leave it to

16 the engineer on the job?

17 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

18 That is correct.

19 MS. BARHYDT: What about fresh air dampers?

20 MR. BEAN: We occasionally see products that

21 do have a small fresh air inlet on the side of the

22 CRAC box but very, very occasionally.
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1 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

2 We also see some of that but, again, it's a very, very

3 low, low requirement.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And when you say you see that,

5 do you mean that you occasionally produce that or you

6 have seen other manufacturers do that?

7 MR. BEAN: John with Schneider. We

8 occasionally produce that as an engineered-to-order

9 capability where we'll put a fresh air duct collar on

10 the side of the CRAC unit for them to bring the fresh

11 air into the CRAC before they push it into the floor

12 plenum.

13 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

14 We also do produce it at times. We actually have one

15 product that we sell to somebody else. We don't

16 market it as a cross-the-line product for sale to

17 anybody, but they do use it. So I only know this. It

18 would fall into this category.

19 MS. BARHYDT: And what about filtration? Is

20 that specified in the CRAC test procedure?

21 MR. BEAN: It is. John with Schneider. It

22 is.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: It is? Okay.

2 MR. BEAN: It is specified within the method

3 of test. It's a MERV 8 filter; right, Ted?

4 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted. That is

5 our standard: MERV 8.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

7 MR. BEAN: I think we have an alternate,

8 though. Ted, when we did the AHRI, I think we offered

9 a MERV 4 for the row-based product.

10 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted. You are

11 right. Yes. We did have some discussion about that.

12 Yes. Yes. On the end row, MERV 4.

13 MS. BARHYDT: So, again, if you'll bear with

14 me? Can you explain what a row product is?

15 MR. BEAN: Yes. John Bean with Schneider.

16 So, for the longest time, the CRAC industry had this

17 perimeter down flow. The mark was dominated by

18 perimeter down flow CRACs that were basically a

19 vertical air handler that pushed the cooled air into a

20 raised floor plenum. And they used perforated tiles

21 in front of the IT racks to get the air up out of the

22 plenum in front of the IT equipment to be cooled.
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1 So about seven or so years ago, there was a

2 bit of a change to some alternate methods of doing

3 this. And it's maybe 15-20 percent of the total

4 market. They have taken the CRACs from the perimeter.

5 And they no longer push the air under the floor

6 plenum, but they put the CRAC right immediately

7 adjacent or in row with the IT racks. So you will

8 have an IT rack on one side, another IT rack on the

9 other side of the row- based CRACs, and they're just

10 pre-discharge, they're pushing their air -- rather

11 than get into the floor plenum, they're just pushing

12 the air out into the cold aisle in front of the IT

13 racks.

14 And typically these guys have different

15 types of fans in them. Typically, the row-type

16 products have little axial fans in them, don't handle

17 the static quite as well. They have gone more towards

18 typically a MERV 4 filter to be a little bit more

19 within the static pressure capability of the fans used

20 for the real products.

21 MS. BARHYDT: And does the test procedure

22 make any distinction between the two?
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1 MR. BEAN: Yes, it does.

2 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

3 MR. BEAN: We have a difference between pre4 discharge, which is the classification for row

5 cooling.

6 Row cooling is free discharge. And then we

7 have up flow and down flow products as well. So the

8 test procedure basically recognizes three flavors, if

9 you would, for CRACs: is the up flow ducted, down

10 flow, and then free discharge?

11 MS. BARHYDT: And when you sell the systems,

12 you would inspect them and design them differently for

13 the different purposes or different --

14 MR. BEAN: Yes.

15 MS. BARHYDT: -- installation designs?

16 MR. BEAN: Absolutely. A row-based air

17 conditioner is going to be a totally different base

18 model than a down flow CRAC unit.

19 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Does anyone have

20 anything else they want to add on any of the features

21 on this slide now?

22 (No response.)
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1 Okay. Hot gas bypass. Do you use this in your CRACs?

2 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

3 We do have it as an option. And we do see it on some

4 of our units.

5 MR. BEAN: Schneider. Similar.

6 MS. BARHYDT: And how much of an impact does

7 this have on the performance?

8 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I don't know

9 what the actual number is, but it's pretty significant

10 when it is operating.

11 MS. BARHYDT: And so would this operate

12 under the conditions of the test procedure?

13 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. We had

14 a little conference here. Sorry for the delay. But

15 we have some products that were really designed for

16 higher return air temperatures. And if they were

17 tested at the 75-degree temperature right now that's

18 in the 2007 version of the method of test from ASHRAE,

19 our products may very well bring on the hot gas

20 bypass. And it would have a profound impact on the

21 performance.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Can you quantify profound in
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1 terms of the metric?

2 MR. BEAN: Yes. I'm thinking 30 to 50

3 percent. It's really going to mess it up big time.

4 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. This is Ted. It would

5 be huge.

6 MR. BEAN: Yes.

7 MS. BARHYDT: And you said that this is an

8 option. It's not something that you ever offer

9 standard?

10 MR. BEAN: Some products it's standard for

11 us. So, I mean, this brings up an interesting point.

12 I know this isn't on the slide, but this is a concern

13 that I have and I think some of my counterparts in

14 industry may have.

15 Right now the method of test that DOE is

16 recognizing -- and that is the 2007 version of 127,

17 ASHRAE 127, 2007. Right now that method of test only

18 has a single return air temperature for the testing of

19 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

20 We have products in the industry right now

21 that are really being designed to maybe give a supply

22 air temperature closer to that than the return air
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1 temperature. So we have products right now, some of

2 our row-based products, the type that we're talking

3 about, that if they were tested at 75 degrees, rather

4 than the 85-95 degrees, return air they're designed

5 for, they may turn on their hot gas bypass. And they

6 would perform terribly because they are being operated

7 at a point they were never really intended to operate

8 at.

9 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I agree with

10 what John is saying. It would only be for a brief

11 period of time that it would ever operate that way;

12 right?

13 MR. BEAN: Yes.

14 MR. MARWITZ: Not as a continual operating

15 mode?

16 MR. BEAN: Right.

17 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. I think for the

18 benefit of DOE, you should know that changes that

19 would make the test procedure, the 2012 version,

20 pressure 127, is different than the 2007 and DOE has

21 adopted. Unfortunately, that is standard ASHRAE 90.1.

22 You've probably come up in the next few, maybe year or
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1 so, with a new addition to the product that will

2 change a little bit what we have currently that will

3 add additional return air temperatures.

4 And I think to address this issue right now,

5 you know, it's in part of the design for different

6 return temperatures, maybe at least as a temporary

7 measure, maybe those would have to fall under a waiver

8 provision from the test procedure if they cannot be

9 tested, probably tested with the current test

10 procedure. So it might be something that DOE will

11 have to consider until the time where, you know, the

12 new test procedure is adopted to where there might be

13 additional efficiency levels for different return air

14 conditions.

15 MS. BARHYDT: Again, we'll have to talk

16 about some of the issues you've raised. I can't

17 really speak to where we would go right now, but is

18 there anything else that we should know or consider

19 about the hot gas bypass? Because it sounds like this

20 could potentially be a real issue, particularly with

21 respect to the current test procedure.

22 MR. BEAN: You know, I think I like Karim's
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1 proposal -- John Bean with Schneider -- if perhaps a

2 waiver could be granted until the methods of test

3 catch up to these newer products designed for higher

4 return air temperatures. I think that's something

5 that I would suggest and support being considered by

6 the DOE to look at that.

7 It is unfortunate because we have increased

8 our efficiency by designing products specifically for

9 higher temperature return air, but then if we are

10 forced to test that product at the standard 75, the

11 product doesn't perform at all well. So it's kind of

12 a funny thing; right? We develop these new products

13 that perform very well at the higher temperatures.

14 And it helped improve efficiency there. And we're

15 scratching our heads like, "My goodness. If we're

16 forced to test these at 75 while if properly applied,

17 they are a better way to cool but if tested at 75,

18 they're not going to pass the test, we're scratching

19 our heads to try to figure out how to get through this

20 problem.

21 MS. BARHYDT: So DOE does have provisions

22 for test procedure waivers where manufacturers believe
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1 that the test procedure yields results that don't

2 accurately reflect the performance of the product.

3 And so that might be something for you to look at in

4 the short term.

5 MR. BEAN: Okay.

6 MS. BARHYDT: But, again, we will talk more

7 about this at the meeting next Wednesday.

8 MR. BEAN: Okay. I appreciate you at least

9 entertaining that side conversation. Thank you.

10 MS. BARHYDT: What about sound traps?

11 You're putting this into a room with a lot of really

12 noisy computers. Are sound traps even an issue?

13 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

14 We don't offer anything like that.

15 MR. BEAN: John Bean with Schneider. Other

16 than maybe a custom plenum that I have seen a few

17 instances ripe for up flow units, where you put a

18 custom plenum on it, we don't have anything in our

19 catalogue that would have a sound trap in it.

20 MS. BARHYDT: What do you mean by the custom

21 plenum?

22 MR. BEAN: Well, I have seen products and
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1 not in recent years, but I can't imagine that they

2 have totally gone away. You know, up flow units where

3 we are discharging the air, you know, up through the

4 unit, into a plenum with grills, I have seen where

5 they will put some sound attenuators between the

6 grills and the fan discharge to be able to get the

7 sound powered down a little bit around the product.

8 But this is such a freak thing. You know, I

9 can think we can say that basically we don't do it.

10 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

11 I've been in this industry for five years now. And I

12 know in our history, we have done what you are talking

13 about, John. But I haven't seen any recently and

14 since I have been here.

15 MR. BEAN: Yes. I am just thinking back

16 over history; right? And I have been kicking around

17 this for a long time. But yes. I haven't seen any in

18 recent time. I think we could -- and within the box

19 itself, I don't think the DOE or anybody could stumble

20 across a unit out there to test with a sound trap

21 built into it. So I don't think there's a lot of

22 risk.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. MARWITZ: But that would be a separate

3 piece that would not be integral to the test unit;

4 right?

5 MR. BEAN: Right.

6 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. So this is something

7 that would be installed in the field. It wouldn't be

8 part of the unit.

9 MR. BEAN: Correct.

10 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about fire smoke

11 isolation dampers?

12 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. We don't see

13 them as an integral part of our units. They're

14 usually -- we have seen them as part of a floor stand

15 at various facilities.

16 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. But it's not something

17 that you are shipping with your unit or offering in

18 option?

19 MR. MARWITZ: That's true.

20 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else for any

21 of the items on this slide?

22 (No response.)
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1 Okay. I am assuming wall sleeves are not relevant to

2 computer room air conditioners.

3 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. They don't

4 affect us, no.

5 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

6 MR. BEAN: Nothing in the Schneider

7 portfolio either. John Bean here.

8 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. What about UV lights?

9 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. Anything

10 relative to our standard product, it's not an option.

11 It could come up as an engineered product, but it's

12 very, very rare.

13 MR. BEAN: Schneider would echo that. Same.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. And what about high15 static indoor blowers, oversized motors?

16 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. We do get

17 applications requesting higher static pressures, which

18 we would then accommodate by either upsizing the motor

19 or in some cases changing the blower and motor both.

20 But it would be an engineered product, what we call a

21 special.

22 MR. BEAN: John with Schneider. Similarly,
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1 it would be what we would call an engineered-to-order.

2 It wouldn't be an option as such for a standard

3 product. You would have to call up our group, and we

4 would engineer it specifically for that project.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So it would be taking an

6 existing model and adjusting it or you would just be

7 designing a completely new model based on the demand?

8 MR. BEAN: Yes. An example for Schneider,

9 we might have a static application where we would take

10 out a 560-millimeter fan and replace it with a 630-

11 millimeter fan. That fan would never really ever be

12 seen in our standard product offering. And it would

13 be run at an alternate speed range as well to handle

14 external static. It would really be an unusual

15 circumstance for us, but it has happened. And I

16 perceive that it could happen. It will happen in the

17 future.

18 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

19 We're in the same situation as John just discussed.

20 MS. BARHYDT: And how common is this?

21 MR. BEAN: It would be in the single digit

22 percentage for sure, --
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1 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

2 MR. BEAN: -- low single digits.

3 MR. MARWITZ: Same for Data Aire.

4 MS. BARHYDT: And whatever your standard

5 motor is, does that operate at the parameters that are

6 specified in the test procedure?

7 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

8 Yes, they will.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

10 MR. BEAN: Schneider would concur, yes.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Are there any other unique

12 issues to computer room air conditioners that we

13 should be thinking about?

14 MR. AMRANE: This is Karim. We need to talk

15 about the nonstandard supply air and return air. And

16 maybe, John, you can talk about it more.

17 MR. BEAN: Right. So John Bean Schneider

18 here. You know, we mentioned that we have three basic

19 classes. We have the down flow, the free discharge,

20 and the up flow. We occasionally get orders for

21 nonstandard air flow configurations. So by then, I

22 mean, our up flow units -- in most of the industry, up
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1 flow unit has a front return air on it. And the box

2 was designed to take the air in the front, do a 90-

3 degree vertical turn upright, go through the machine,

4 and discharge out the top of the machine. We do get

5 customers now and then that they want a rear return

6 option, rather than a front return option. The

7 implication there is, though, that the air flow

8 through the machine is coming in a direction other

9 than what its guts were designed for specifically

10 inside. And it's mainly an external sheet metal

11 change to it. And the airflow performance will not be

12 identical. And so what we're saying is if somebody

13 ordered a rear return option and tested it, it

14 probably would not test out identical to the base

15 model.

16 MS. BARHYDT: How close would it be?

17 MR. BEAN: I think you would almost have to

18 take that case by case. Some of the machines that

19 maybe have a horizontal filter rack and a B coil or an

20 A coil would probably be almost the same performance.

21 Now, other machines have a slab coil and the filter

22 mounted on an angle. And then the air coming from the
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103

1 other direction, you know, entering it in a different

2 way than it was optimized for, could have a fairly

3 significant hit on it from an air-side performance.

4 Definitely it would have enough performance that we

5 could put at risk a finding that the unit didn't

6 comply. And, really, the only reason it didn't comply

7 was because it had this rear return option.

8 MS. BARHYDT: And is there a reason why you

9 wouldn't just -- where they want that design, where

10 you wouldn't design something that, in my words, makes

11 more sense for a rear return?

12 MR. BEAN: Yes. So the attach rate, this

13 option is so overrun for us to go and go and support

14 all the different piping changes and all the extra

15 sheet metal for this very, very low attach rate of

16 this rear return option would not be such a -- you

17 know, we would spend more developing and designing

18 this. So we would almost have to tell the industry,

19 "No. You just can't have this anymore because we

20 really optimized every box to work perfectly or as

21 ideal as we could for rear return." The cost to do it

22 would just be prohibitive to them.
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1 MS. BARHYDT: And can you go back and

2 explain again why some people want the rear return,

3 instead of the front return?

4 MR. BEAN: So, Ted, I don't know about what

5 you're seeing, but sometimes what we'll see is they'll

6 put the CRAC unit in a galley outside the computer

7 room where basically the back of the CRAC is up

8 against a wall between the computer room air

9 conditioner in the data center itself. And then

10 they'll duct the return air into the bottom of the

11 unit and then do a U-turn and then put it back out

12 into the data center. That is one of the applications

13 where I have seen rear return.

14 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. That is exactly

15 what we see most of them being, yes. We have seen

16 some other rear returns. I am not sure exactly the

17 application, but what you described is the most

18 predominant.

19 MR. RIVEST: This is Mike Rivest from

20 Navigant. I mean, is this a different product or is

21 it simply the openings and the casing that are a

22 different position?
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1 MR. BEAN: For us, it's just the openings.

2 And the sheet metal wrapper is modified to be able to

3 put the opening for the return air in the back, rather

4 than the front. It's different sheet metal that goes

5 on it.

6 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

7 It's the same for us. It does change the air flow.

8 And sometimes the rear opening is a compromise of area

9 compared to what you have from a front and side

10 opening.

11 MS. ARMSTRONG: Hello. This is Ashley from

12 DOE as well. Is the act, then, just to specify the

13 position for testing?

14 MR. BEAN: Could you repeat that?

15 MS. ARMSTRONG: I Mean, is there act for the

16 DOE to consider specifying a certain I guess air flow

17 configuration for testing?

18 MR. BEAN: Well, my request -- John with

19 Schneider. I think my request would be that if DOE

20 wanted to test a product, they would not select a

21 product with rear return option for testing because

22 it's such an uncommon feature and the fact that it
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1 does provide, as Ted was indicating, maybe a different

2 air- entering geometry, you know, the area available

3 may be smaller, we would request that you don't test

4 that as being representative of the base model.

5 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire. I

6 agree with what John just said.

7 MS. BARHYDT: Do you have other questions,

8 Ashley?

9 MS. ARMSTRONG: No. We're good. You can

10 keep going.

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Anything else on the

12 nonstandard supply of return air?

13 (No response.)

14 MS. BARHYDT: I think we understand the

15 issue.

16 MR. BEAN: Okay.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Let's see. We talked about

18 the correction capacitors, but the slide has been

19 added to add "and electronics." And I'm not sure what

20 that was intended to cover because we didn't discuss

21 anything else.

22 MR. MARWITZ: John, this is Ted from Data
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107

1 Aire. I think that was added by another manufacturer,

2 was it not? And I'm not sure exactly what they were

3 thinking when they added it.

4 MR. BEAN: I'm thinking it was. You are

5 absolutely correct. And I'm thinking maybe they were

6 thinking active power factor correction, rather than

7 just simple capacitors; right?

8 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. That could fall into

9 that category, yes.

10 MR. BEAN: That is the only thing I can -- I

11 didn't follow up and ask him why he threw "and

12 electronics" in there, but that was my assumption. I

13 just let it be.

14 MS. BARHYDT: Can you go back to the

15 correction capacitor slide?

16 MS. TUCKER: Yes.

17 MS. BARHYDT: Yes. I was just refreshing my

18 own memory as to what that was. Okay. I see. Okay.

19 And so based on your understanding of what

20 that would be, the electronics would presumably also

21 require power in addition to whatever losses there

22 were for the correction?
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1 MR. BEAN: Yes. I am inferring that is what

2 this manufacturer was implying, yes.

3 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

4 MR. RIVEST: I'm sorry. Mike Rivest. Did

5 you say earlier that power factor correction is not

6 something that was typically supplied with your units?

7 MR. BEAN: We did say that it's a very

8 infrequent offering from the Schneider perspective.

9 John Bean with Schneider. We don't see very often a

10 request for power factor correction capacitors.

11 MR. RIVEST: When they used the word

12 "capacitors," I don't think they were really just

13 limiting it to capacitors. I think all along, it's

14 been power factor correction, I think, more generally.

15 MR. BEAN: And John here with Schneider.

16 And I think that's why electronics was added by this

17 other vendor, because maybe an act of high power

18 factor correction, rather than just capacitor banks, I

19 think that is where that electronics came from.

20 MR. RIVEST: Right.

21 MS. BARHYDT: Okay.

22 MR. BEAN: To your point.
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1 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted from Data Aire.

2 It is very, very low. We see it only as an engineered

3 product once in a while. But I agree with John that

4 it is an act of power factor capacitor.

5 MS. BARHYDT: So are there any other issues

6 that you wanted to add anything, feel like we didn't

7 cover sufficiently? I'm looking at the list. And I

8 think we covered everything here but just to make

9 sure.

10 MR. BEAN: I think we covered everything

11 here pretty well.

12 MR. MARWITZ: This is Ted. I agree.

13 MS. BARHYDT: Well, thank you both for your

14 time. And so we will be revisiting this after DOE has

15 had an opportunity to go back and look through all of

16 the comments that you have provided today. And we'll

17 be meeting again next Wednesday as the full working

18 group.

19 MR. AMRANE: Laura, this is Karim. Just a

20 request if possible. I know that DOE is going to

21 review this and DOE is going to go over it like it did

22 for the other product, you know, suggest a
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1 recommendation. Would it be possible to receive that

2 recommendation ahead of the meeting if I can share it

3 with the manufacturers because many of them are not

4 going to be probably on the phone next week? That

5 will be helpful, at least to get some feedback.

6 MS. BARHYDT: We will try to. Honestly, my

7 hesitation is that the idea of the meeting Wednesday

8 is that we present our view and our rationale. And

9 our hope is that it is then a dialogue. So if it's

10 possible for people to be on the phone for that

11 meeting, that really would be ideal because,

12 obviously, it is a negotiation. And so my hesitation

13 in providing something in advance makes it look like,

14 "And this is the way it is going to be, end of story."

15 And that is not the idea behind the whole rulemaking.

16 MR. AMRANE: And I understand. This is

17 Karim. I know, but maybe the hope is that there will

18 be manufacturers on the call. And probably there will

19 be some, but it's just to get further input from those

20 who -- like today we have only two manufacturers on

21 the phone.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Right.
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1 MR. AMRANE: And the others, Emerson is not

2 on the phone. And Emerson is a big player here. And

3 I hope they will be on the phone next week, but it's

4 just to get some input prior to the meeting so at

5 least if they are not on the phone, we can provide

6 that input. That's all.

7 MS. BARHYDT: I will do my best, Karim.

8 MR. AMRANE: Thank you.

9 MS. BARHYDT: Anything else?

10 (No response.)

11 MS. BARHYDT: Okay. Well, thanks,

12 everybody, to joining us today. I know it was fairly

13 short notice, but this has been very helpful to the

14 Department to get this additional information. And we

15 look forward to talking to everybody at the next

16 working group meeting on Wednesday.

17 MR. BEAN: Well, thank you. We appreciate

18 you taking the time to listen to us.

19 MR. MARWITZ: Yes. Thank you. This has

20 been good.

21 MR. AMRANE: Thank you.

22 MS. BARHYDT: Good. Thanks, everyone. Bye
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1 bye.

2 (Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the

3 Appliance Standards and Rulemaking

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3 I, NATALIA THOMAS, the Court Reporter before 

4 whom the foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby 

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6 the proceeding was thereafter reduced to typewriting 

7 under my direction; that said transcript is a true and 

8 accurate record of the proceeding; that I am neither 

9 related to nor employed by any of the parties to this 

10 proceeding; and, further, that I have no financial 

11 interest in this proceeding. 

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NATALIA THOMAS 

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3 I, SARAH VEACH, hereby certify that I am not the Court 

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5 that I have typed the transcript of this proceeding 

6 using the Court Reporter's notes and recordings. The 

7 foregoing/attached transcript is a true, correct and 

8 complete transcription of said proceeding . 

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78:22 99:4

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ago 5:13,15 7:10

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97:5

attorney 19:3

audio 14:11,12

audit 39:4 40:22

52:16

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60:15

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37:16 106:2

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B

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33:21

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8:8,11 9:1,4,14

10:4,11,22

11:18,20 12:13

13:1,6,11,13,17,

21 14:5,7,14

15:7,11,20

16:2,11,20

17:5,14,17

18:2,5,12,17,20

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21:1,3,7,10,13,1

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22 26:7,15,22

27:14,18,20

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29:4,12,18

30:1,5,13,21

31:4,8,14,19

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80:2,7,16

82:1,14 83:2,13

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107:14,17

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109:5,13

110:6,22

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84:22

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basis 12:22

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59:1 60:7,17

61:2 62:12

63:1,3,7,14

64:6,7 65:10

67:1,18 68:21

69:9,14,21

70:10,14 71:2,5

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74:1,7,16 75:9

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77:6,7 79:5,10

80:8 81:5

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85:14 86:9,20

87:7,21

88:2,7,15

90:1,3,14,16

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95:1

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97:15 98:5,9

99:6,7,13,22

100:8,21

101:2,10,17

102:17 103:12

104:4

105:1,14,18

106:16 107:4,10

108:1,7,9,15,22

109:10 111:17

bear 88:13

becoming

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57:4

Beever 2:7 21:4

24:19 33:3 45:9
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benefit 73:16

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best 111:7

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bin 63:18 64:8

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blower 27:21

28:18 43:9,14

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99:19

blowers 42:10

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bottom 72:19

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box 14:4 57:11

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brief 93:10

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brings 92:11

brought 54:3

Btu 4:3

building 8:13 9:22

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built 34:15,21 35:5

53:19 61:18

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built-in 61:10

bullet 72:19

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91:1,20 93:5

94:19

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camp 63:17

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73:20 77:20 87:9

89:19

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108:18 109:4

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107:7

108:10,12,13

capacity 4:3 47:15

67:20 68:4 74:20

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30:19 32:4

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46:4 48:13 86:11

102:18

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44:6 46:3,7

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96:19

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104:9,12

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33:11 43:12 44:7

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51:18 56:15

74:16 76:9 79:10

81:10

CERTIFICATE

113:1 114:1

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61:1 81:8 89:2

94:2 102:11

105:7

Change'Air 2:11

23:6 28:22 30:10

31:10 36:4 42:4

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chemicals 12:19

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31:12,21 62:13

choose 31:6

circuit 52:11

74:9,21

circumstance

100:15

clarification 11:8

32:5

class 3:21

classes 101:19

classification 90:4

clear 72:1

clearly 15:14

20:15

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closer 92:22

Co 2:9

coastal 12:1,17

coated 11:5,10,22

12:13,14,21

63:12 64:1,13

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64:14

coatings 63:15,21

64:16

code 36:6

codes 8:2 10:16

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coefficient 81:6,9

coil 12:7 21:1

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112:4

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82:20

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34:14 35:14

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components

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24:6

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47:13 73:2,4,5

74:11,22

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72:20

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14:3 46:16 54:22

55:6,10,15,21

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57:12,17

59:12,16,18,22

62:10 65:4,20,22

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92:12

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21:5 22:22

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25:15 72:13

75:15,17 76:2

condensers 24:7

66:3,6

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104:9

conditioners 4:13

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56:2,4,14,16

57:18 62:10 65:4

66:1 67:17 76:6

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101:12

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59:12

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26:3 36:21 55:10

91:12 94:14

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51:17,18

52:16,17 54:10

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configurable

65:13

configuration 73:3

105:17

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101:21

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49:15

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72:19 94:11,18

105:16

consideration 68:5

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consumption

61:1,3

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66:17 67:5 68:6

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66:19

conversation 73:9

96:9

cool 45:10 95:17

CoolAir 2:7

cooled 62:17

88:19,22

cooler 57:7,8

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correction 11:6

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counterparts

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12:11 13:7 16:18

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26:20

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102:5

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30:18

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D

D.C 1:11

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35:22 36:16

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76:22 77:22

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85:6,22 86:17

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96:13 97:10

100:18 101:3,7

104:9,12 105:6

106:5,22 109:1

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13:16,17

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103:4

definition 3:19

17:4 28:14 39:20

47:11 54:4 70:22

definitions 3:18

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degrade 12:7

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92:19 93:3,4

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15:3,12 16:12,14

36:21 37:7

47:6,9 66:16,20

67:10,16 68:9

69:16,18

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2:5,12,14,16 3:3

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103:9,10

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51:10

designation 20:16

designed 25:14

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93:4 95:3

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determine 15:12

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77:18

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74:20 75:7

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113:17

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103:1 113:7

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68:13,18

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discuss 4:5 7:7

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105:12,16,19

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104:10

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21:18,21 22:4,11

23:13,18 24:1,4

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67:2,8,12

76:9,10

78:6,12,14,17,19

79:7

electronic 61:9

electronically

60:18 70:20 71:8
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electrostatic

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elements 52:8

78:19

else 10:22 11:3

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28:20 29:12

30:13 31:8 32:15

36:14 41:22 54:7

56:8 62:3

65:2,19 69:15

75:12 83:13

87:15 90:20

94:18 98:20

106:11,21 111:9

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57:21 58:9

111:1,2

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energies 5:7

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2:5,12,14,16

3:3,22 6:3

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61:12 73:19

enforcement 4:7

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100:4

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76:21 87:8 100:1

enter 14:13

entering 9:19

103:1 106:2

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entertaining 96:9

environment

12:18 85:4

environments 12:1

equipment 8:7

9:20 10:1 12:4

35:16 52:7,12

55:6 62:15 88:22

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3:5,6,14 37:16

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exhaust 9:21

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50:2,4,5,15,17,2

1

external 44:1 51:3

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fabricated 63:22

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factor 107:6

108:5,10,14,18

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61:19

factory-installed

16:7 28:7 30:6

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37:1,2 57:9

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22:22

24:11,15,16

43:13 44:3,13

52:4,5

60:15,19,20,21

61:1 70:16
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favor 81:22

fear 82:13

feature 15:15,16

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features 4:6,15,19

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feel 109:6

field 15:17,20

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field-installed

15:18 16:3

figure 72:9 95:19

file 47:19

filter 30:22 31:2

32:3,22 33:11

41:10,16 88:3

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filters 30:17 33:6

filtration 30:15

31:5 87:19

final 33:18 80:20

financial 113:10

finding 103:5

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fins 82:19

fire 35:21

36:6,13,15 98:10

fire-rated 36:7

first 5:5 6:7 48:5

57:15 62:13 65:7

fits 28:16

five 80:3,22

81:1,11,16 97:11

fixed 46:22 47:11

fixed-plate 47:3

fixed-speed 61:10

flavors 90:8

floor 87:11 88:20

89:5,11 98:14

flow 19:10 51:22

52:2,3,6

60:13,22 61:4,5

77:10,15

78:3,15,22 81:2

83:3 88:17,18

90:7,9,10,18

96:17 97:2

101:19,20,21,22

102:1,7 105:7,16

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fluids 57:7

fluid-side 58:17

focused 67:19

foil 58:18

folks 19:21 29:21

55:14 57:21

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foot 68:3

force 64:9

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foregoing 113:4

foregoing/

attached 114:7

forgive 78:13

forward 14:20

111:15

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freak 97:8

free 90:6,10

101:19

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frequency 6:4 71:1

73:15 77:18

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36:6 86:19,21

87:9,10

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front 32:11,17

88:21,22 89:12

102:1,2,6 104:3

105:4,9

full 109:17

function 74:10

functionality 44:8

67:10 71:11

functions 76:7

funny 95:12

future 69:7 100:17

G

galley 104:6

gas 3:22 25:19

26:21 33:19 34:9

36:15,18,22 37:5

62:18,21 63:11

67:9,12 76:11

79:17 80:10,11

82:15,18 91:1,19

93:5 94:19

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55:20 59:13

83:20

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26:9,12

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10:17

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22:10 24:3 68:6

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gone 89:17 97:2

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58:3

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grills 53:10,11

97:4,6

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81:20 100:3

109:18 111:16

growing 10:16

Grundy 2:11

23:2,5,21 24:8

28:22 29:8 30:10
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36:4,12,17

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100:13

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100:16

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74:6

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67:15

68:11,15,19

69:1,16

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69:6,10

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22:2,3,12,13

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14:2,3,20 27:19

32:1,3,11 37:2

39:3,7,13 42:13

49:8 51:21 61:2
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76:20

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110:19 111:4,6

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48:10

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99:10,11 102:10

105:1,4,7,22

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J

Jeremiah 2:10

14:9

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86:16

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Karim 2:3 5:2,8

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mainly 102:10

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makeup 68:1

manage 83:6
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manufacture

33:22 47:12

55:15

manufacturer

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52:4,10 53:8,11

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75:8,21,22 76:20

modified 105:2

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moisture 9:21

month 84:7

months 57:9
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motor 19:15 20:4

21:5 23:1

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44:10

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19:1,11

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21:3,7,13 22:19

23:4 24:9

25:1,8,19 26:22

27:6,14 28:3,20

29:14 30:13,21

31:4,19 32:7

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35:1,12,17,21

36:14 37:6,19

38:4,10 40:11

41:2,8,14,22

42:3,9 43:6

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105:3,8,10

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105:1

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91:11 93:7,11

101:5

operated 52:7 93:6

operating 91:10

93:14

operation 34:8

60:12
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operational 16:8

opinion 17:22

82:12

opportunity

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opposed 43:9

optimized

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option 15:10 17:12

18:20 20:18

21:17 22:1,2,3

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29:5,9

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